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KobeBryan
03-30-2012, 01:25 AM
I was in a haste to post before I started to jump on the highway, but Tao and IBA have added the necessary steps - Pridemage should be the last target in the chain before passing priority.

EDIT:
If they let PWave resolve on Pridemage, you've just exiled their team for 1-X turns - congrats, now alpha strike.
If they don't let PWave resolve on Pridemage and kill it, they make the situation far worse.

Chances are, they could destroy it next turn, but with careful play you can make it so they don't have another turn.

would this trick work if you control the pride mage as well?

Koby
03-30-2012, 01:48 AM
The 2nd portion, yes.

Tao
03-30-2012, 02:39 AM
would this trick work if you control the pride mage as well?

Yes, that works. With Qasali in play, Wave in hand and 5 Mana available u can Wrath them. Exile all their creatures, respond with destroying Wave. This comes up not that often because it requires a certain setup but it is very useful nonetheless and can turn otherwise unwinnable positions around.

Arcadia
03-30-2012, 02:48 AM
RE: Parallax Wave is better than Gideon in every situation except for superman mode. You can activate Wave without passing priority to a number of targets. If/when your opponent responds with his Pridemage all the targets have already been selected and destroying Wave would now turn it into a multiple STP spell.

Ehm...no. It can be faster, but it is not definitely better.

If the board position is stable with mother of runes, maze of ith, sword of light/shadow (now people is starting to cut stoneforge, sure) or other stuff like that it can fail. And with qasali on the other side you are assuming you will remove all the creatures for lethal damage, which does not happens always.

Gideon taps everything, alllowing you lethal damage next turn (like wave, but in the next turn and in a safer way) and this will end in very favorable trades for you also. Even in a unfavorable board position it is very good and destroys creatures.

The only reason I would play wave over gideon is the mana cost.

menace13
03-30-2012, 06:58 AM
Ehm...no. It can be faster, but it is not definitely better.

If the board position is stable with mother of runes, maze of ith, sword of light/shadow (now people is starting to cut stoneforge, sure) or other stuff like that it can fail. And with qasali on the other side you are assuming you will remove all the creatures for lethal damage, which does not happens always.

Gideon taps everything, alllowing you lethal damage next turn (like wave, but in the next turn and in a safer way) and this will end in very favorable trades for you also. Even in a unfavorable board position it is very good and destroys creatures.

The only reason I would play wave over gideon is the mana cost.
The mana cost isn't the only thing despite having the potential to resolve on turn 3 on the draw facing their KotR+Mom and Noble. Gideon is a a lot harder at 5 mana just because of Wasteland.

Maze of Ith does nothing to Parallax Wave if anything it is more of a hinderance to Gideon since it allows their Mom or KotR to Untap and also stops Gideon from dealing Damage. Mother of Runes and SoLaS are also not good for Gideon.

Wave is safer and better in any game state than Gideon except where they have Solas Equipped. It does not have to pass the turn to be effective and can be used under an opposing Pridemage or Mom. It is a better top deck when the board is empty or weak because Exiling 2 creatures for 3 turns is better than a fog. E. Tutor finds Wave making it more frequent than a 1-of that can't be searched for.

Arcadia
03-30-2012, 07:27 AM
The mana cost isn't the only thing despite having the potential to resolve on turn 3 on the draw facing their KotR+Mom and Noble. Gideon is a a lot harder at 5 mana just because of Wasteland.

Maze of Ith does nothing to Parallax Wave if anything it is more of a hinderance to Gideon since it allows their Mom or KotR to Untap and also stops Gideon from dealing Damage. Mother of Runes and SoLaS are also not good for Gideon.

Wave is safer and better in any game state than Gideon except where they have Solas Equipped. It does not have to pass the turn to be effective and can be used under an opposing Pridemage or Mom. It is a better top deck when the board is empty or weak because Exiling 2 creatures for 3 turns is better than a fog. E. Tutor finds Wave making it more frequent than a 1-of that can't be searched for.

Let's see. I talked about all these cards because they put you in a position where even with wave, you may not been able to win. Gideon taps always (read, ALWAYS in any imaginable situation, even if he has 3 million creatures) and you can attack for lethal damage. And probably 90% of the times you have 2 attacks.

Removing 2 creatures for 3 turns better than a fog, that's also nonsense. if the board is weak, you make them attack and destroy 1 of them. Or you make them attack forever and trade 1 creature.

I do not see the point of 'you don't need to pass the turn to be effective'. It's effective, who cares if you win one turn later if it is always effective?¿ It's like saying whoa, Jace is so bad, it does not do anything until you have it 2 or 3 turns in the table.

I see your point, wave is not bad, but your arguments are just bad.
I think it's enough of this discussion, we won't agree. I will personally try both.

maktus
03-30-2012, 07:08 PM
I saw on some lists using geist of saint traft, so I thought of putting 2-3 mirran crusader as finisher beyond the KofReliquary. what do you think it?

Koby
03-30-2012, 07:20 PM
I saw on some lists using geist of saint traft, so I thought of putting 2-3 mirran crusader as finisher beyond the KofReliquary. what do you think it?

I think that Mirran Crusader prefers plowing fields than slashing baddies. His vulnerability to both Bolt and StP is a big drawback.

KobeBryan
03-30-2012, 07:44 PM
How do you guys beat combo elves?

That deck goes off pretty fast on turn 3

Fade
03-30-2012, 10:14 PM
How do you guys beat combo elves?

That deck goes off pretty fast on turn 3

Pre board our hand would need to have either Jitte, Stoneforge for Jitte, and/or swords to plowshares in it. Otherwise we are pretty much dead in the water.

Post board we bring in Ethersworn Canonist and Path to Exile plus whatever else people might be running.

Dzra
03-30-2012, 10:27 PM
Ethersworn Canonist, Batterskull, Jitte, and Linvala are all good for Elves.

Fatal
03-31-2012, 06:23 AM
I added some Chapters in Primer and update some builds and strategies.

In not so long future I'm planing to clean the Primer to little shorter and more compact since its 20 pages long - little book ;)

Artlee
03-31-2012, 10:48 AM
Ethersworn Canonist, Batterskull, Jitte, and Linvala are all good for Elves.

Isn't Linvala too slow?

Koopa
03-31-2012, 11:21 AM
Isn't Linvala too slow?

Yes and No. By itself it is too slow, but with acceleration or some minor disruption she locks out the Elf deck.

mordraid
03-31-2012, 04:09 PM
Isn't Linvala too slow?

I was thinking the exact same thing.

majikal
03-31-2012, 05:14 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing.
I think the idea is to land a Canonist and swords their guys until you can get Linvala in play.

KobeBryan
03-31-2012, 08:55 PM
Wouldnt livala be too slow against combo elves? They go off on turn 3 most of time

Fade
03-31-2012, 11:27 PM
Played in a small tournament today and went 3-0-1 with my matches being Mono Blue Dreadnaught (2-0), High Tide (2-0), and Rg Goblins (2-1). The last round my opponent (UW Sword Fish) and I ID'd and split the prize as it was getting pretty late. I never really got to test the Loyal Retainers out, but essentially it could have been really good against High Tide and Goblins. I'm going to test it out more before I come to a conclusion on whether it belongs in the deck or not.

ryn ball_2
04-01-2012, 01:38 AM
played in a >10 participants in our local shop and went 3-2 first time playing this deck with the inclusion of thalia along side sfm package

R1 vs MBC: win 2-0
R2 vs white stax: thalia ftw 2-0
R3 vs rug: 1-2 mana screw at game 3
R4 vs gobs: 1-2 seems the deck goes slow this time and i dont know why
R5 vs dredge: 2-1

still i need to play more

Mark Sun
04-01-2012, 02:56 AM
Ethersworn Canonist, Batterskull, Jitte, and Linvala are all good for Elves.

I would agree with all of these except Batterskull. They don't really care about that card, in my opinion.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-01-2012, 04:02 AM
I am assuming it was a mistype. Batterskull's probably the first card that should come out against Elves.

Arcadia
04-01-2012, 07:27 AM
I played yesterday on legacy catalan league (130 players). Played against 3 gw, 4 stoneblade, 1 threshhold.

Things to mention... 4 qasali and 2 stoneforge was great. Before I run 3-3. Sometimes stoneforge is awesome, but some others it is too slow.

I won the three mirrors. About sbding I did +2 gut shot +2 path +1 gideon +1 wave -1 stoneforge -1 sword body and mind, -3 thalia -1 gaddock.

Never drawn gideon, draw once wave (I didn't need it). But mana is even tighter than I imagined, so I don't think I try again gideon. Wave maybe. BUT the best card was gut shot. It won a lot of games.

In general I missed a second jitte, and probably a second planeswalker after sb.

maktus
04-01-2012, 10:30 AM
I think that Mirran Crusader prefers plowing fields than slashing baddies. His vulnerability to both Bolt and StP is a big drawback.

I was seeing your decklist and I was curious to know what you side in and out against mirror. Do you use the e-tutor kit?

Koby
04-01-2012, 01:59 PM
I was seeing your decklist and I was curious to know what you side in and out against mirror. Do you use the e-tutor kit?

In my old list (which is now outdated - I've switched over to +Thalia -SFM), I would cut SoFI, 3 SFM, Thrun, and Teeg to bring in Maze, Bog, 2 PtE, Jitte, and O-ring/Metamorph

Avatar of Light
04-01-2012, 03:53 PM
In my old list (which is now outdated - I've switched over to +Thalia -SFM), I would cut SoFI, 3 SFM, Thrun, and Teeg to bring in Maze, Bog, 2 PtE, Jitte, and O-ring/Metamorph

With SFM gone, is the equipment package (SoFI, SoLS, Jitte) still the same? Or have you moved to 2 Jitte MD?

Fatal
04-01-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm almost sure you should switch to 2 x Jitte, since straight GW lists doesn't run too many removal (4 stp aren't sometimes enough), its a good direction.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-01-2012, 07:06 PM
I know that people in this thread are unreasonably afraid of drawing and resolving amazingly powerful permanents and having a backup copy in hand, but are these lists really so tight that people can't fit in 3x Jitte?

majikal
04-01-2012, 07:47 PM
I know that people in this thread are unreasonably afraid of drawing and resolving amazingly powerful permanents and having a backup copy in hand, but are these lists really so tight that people can't fit in 3x Jitte?
I could see a third Jitte being good, but there are honestly only a couple of flex slots in the maindeck. With many decks moving away from Stoneforge, just how necessary is Aven Mindcensor? It always feels underwhelming when I play it, and it surely would be the first thing I cut from a modern Maverick list (-SFM +Thalia, etc).

I'm also tempted to play a full four Scavenging Ooze just to overload my opponents' removal.

So maybe something like:

1x Dryad Arbor
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sylvan Library (or honestly, probably the second Elspeth. Lots of Artifact/Enchantment hate running around at the moment)

4x Wasteland
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Forest
1x Plains
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas

JUNI0R
04-01-2012, 07:52 PM
I know that people in this thread are unreasonably afraid of drawing and resolving amazingly powerful permanents and having a backup copy in hand, but are these lists really so tight that people can't fit in 3x Jitte?

Going to 3 Jitte it not unreasonable. In stalemate situations the first one is going to get blown up or countered anyways and it's nice to draw a second one. If the first Jitte does stay on the board you are likely ahead. We were running 3 equipment before, so when i took out the stoneforge package I just changed the equipment to 3 Jitte. You lose some flexibility of choosing your equipment with stoenforge but I found myself usually wanting Jitte anyways so it really hasn't bothered me.

maktus
04-01-2012, 11:13 PM
Going to 3 Jitte it not unreasonable. In stalemate situations the first one is going to get blown up or countered anyways and it's nice to draw a second one. If the first Jitte does stay on the board you are likely ahead. We were running 3 equipment before, so when i took out the stoneforge package I just changed the equipment to 3 Jitte. You lose some flexibility of choosing your equipment with stoenforge but I found myself usually wanting Jitte anyways so it really hasn't bothered me.

Two weeks ago I played a small tournament (10 people) with 3x thalia and 3x Jitte and was not impressed. Thalia stopped me from using Elspeth in the first game, and I missed sword of light and shadow against junk e StP.

majikal
04-01-2012, 11:18 PM
Two weeks ago I played a small tournament (10 people) with 3x thalia and 3x Jitte and was not impressed. Thalia stopped me from using Elspeth in the first game, and I missed sword of light and shadow against junk e StP.
I feel like you need to add an extra mana-producing land if you're playing Thalia. Also, yeah, SoLaS is a boss. I'll probably still play it and 2x Jitte, honestly.

I'm still on the fence in regards to SFM. I feel like it should not be the core of the deck like it is in Stoneblade, but I also feel like being able to just go get an equipment is huge. I would play it as 2x if I were to run it at all.

On one hand, I really love what Thalia does against Tempo, Control, and Combo decks. On the other hand, I really miss being able to sword up a Troll Ascetic and just go to town on people.

I will continue brewing until I find a balance between my old list and something with Thalia.

Koby
04-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Right now I'm at 2 Jitte and 1 SFM with SoLS sideboard. I need to get a ton of deck time with it to see how it operates. I may end up cutting the SFM for the 23rd land (either another Fetch or Forest).

sir
04-02-2012, 04:00 AM
Hey everyone,

I've been out of the loop the past few months (since Dark Ascension first hit, basically.)

What's new? It looks like Maverick has been doing well ... some exciting new directions.

Looks like people have, using a few Jittes, dropped the Stoneforge package to make room? Man, I was advocating for trying this a while ago!

Any major points of interest regarding these Fauna Shaman builds?

Thalia: makes perfect sense.

No more Thrun eh?

The sideboards look pretty different too. Never considered Gut Shot or Linvala ... Gut Shot looks good but why Gut Shot instead of Path to Exiles?

Anyway, I'm not asking people to do my homework here but if anyone feels like it, any broad or specific points would be of course much appreciated.

lyracian
04-02-2012, 08:02 AM
Anyway, I'm not asking people to do my homework here but if anyone feels like it, any broad or specific points would be of course much appreciated.I think you have summaries a lot of it yourself. Drop SFM for more Jitte's, Ooze and Thalia.

majikal
04-02-2012, 08:05 AM
Hey everyone,

I've been out of the loop the past few months (since Dark Ascension first hit, basically.)

What's new? It looks like Maverick has been doing well ... some exciting new directions.

Looks like people have, using a few Jittes, dropped the Stoneforge package to make room? Man, I was advocating for trying this a while ago!
It may come full circle. The metagame is becoming increasingly inbred at the moment so many lists are just loading up on hatebears.


Any major points of interest regarding these Fauna Shaman builds?
A product of metagame inbreeding. It helps win against the mirror and little else. If another contender rises through the clusterfuck of Maverick and Stoneblade decks, this may no longer be a good option.


No more Thrun eh?
Where would you put him? I have exactly two slots in my list that I'm not particularly happy with (Aven Mindcensor), and Thrun doesn't seem much better in most instances. I'm beginning to consider maindeck Linvala though.


The sideboards look pretty different too. Never considered Gut Shot or Linvala ... Gut Shot looks good but why Gut Shot instead of Path to Exiles?
Gut shot lets you kill opposing Mother of Runes and not lose tempo. It's essentially Mental Misstep in the mirror. Why not play both?

Fade
04-02-2012, 09:25 AM
Gut shot was also put in the sideboard for dredge as bad as it may seem. You can gut shot your noble, dryad, scryb, or mother to remove bridges.

Linvala seems to be a complete upgrade from Aven Mindcensor in my opinion. Aven has never really shined or done anything for me. If your meta has a decent number of Maverick then it might be right to make the swap.

Snief
04-02-2012, 09:46 AM
I don't think that moving away from SFM when playing Thalia is the right thing. The first thing I would cut is Mindcensor and Elspeth. I mean, what is scarier than a first striking, Equipment wearing, removal prove (Karakas/MoR) creature? And the possibility of choosing your Equipment is huge (->SFM). Maybe something like:

3 Hierarch
1 BoP
4 Mother of Runes
4 KotR
3 Thalia
3 Ooze
2 SFM
3 Pridemage
1 Gaddock
1 Scryb Ranger

4 GSZ
4 StoP
2 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sword of your choice/metagame

23 lands (incl. Dryad Arbor)

Fade
04-02-2012, 09:52 AM
I don't think that moving away from SFM when playing Thalia is the right thing. The first thing I would cut is Mindcensor and Elspeth. I mean, what is scarier than a first striking, Equipment wearing, removal prove (Karakas/MoR) creature? And the possibility of choosing your Equipment is huge (->SFM). Maybe something like:

3 Hierarch
1 BoP
4 Mother of Runes
4 KotR
3 Thalia
3 Ooze
2 SFM
3 Pridemage
1 Gaddock
1 Scryb Ranger

4 GSZ
4 StoP
2 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sword of your choice/metagame

23 lands (incl. Dryad Arbor)

Elspeth is too good. I would rather leave in Elspeth and cut your second Sylvan Library. As drawing two of them is almost always bad.

maktus
04-02-2012, 10:09 AM
It may come full circle. The metagame is becoming increasingly inbred at the moment so many lists are just loading up on hatebears.


A product of metagame inbreeding. It helps win against the mirror and little else. If another contender rises through the clusterfuck of Maverick and Stoneblade decks, this may no longer be a good option.


Where would you put him? I have exactly two slots in my list that I'm not particularly happy with (Aven Mindcensor), and Thrun doesn't seem much better in most instances. I'm beginning to consider maindeck Linvala though.


Gut shot lets you kill opposing Mother of Runes and not lose tempo. It's essentially Mental Misstep in the mirror. Why not play both?

about gutshot, what do you think of using 1x mortarpod it in place of it? it's slower but can be used repeatedly, and is also faster than a Jitte.

mordraid
04-02-2012, 10:13 AM
I wouln't cut the elspeth because she is so good a making small critters fly over the enemies.

I would cut the mindcensor, they have been so-so for me. I may replace them with more ozze or even linvala maindeck.

Richard Cheese
04-02-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't think that moving away from SFM when playing Thalia is the right thing. The first thing I would cut is Mindcensor and Elspeth. I mean, what is scarier than a first striking, Equipment wearing, removal prove (Karakas/MoR) creature? And the possibility of choosing your Equipment is huge (->SFM). Maybe something like:

3 Hierarch
1 BoP
4 Mother of Runes
4 KotR
3 Thalia
3 Ooze
2 SFM
3 Pridemage
1 Gaddock
1 Scryb Ranger

4 GSZ
4 StoP
2 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sword of your choice/metagame

23 lands (incl. Dryad Arbor)

I guess the only thing scarier would be a flying, equipment wearing, removal proof creature.

sdematt
04-02-2012, 11:37 AM
Pretty sure that's Jesus.

-Matt

Richard Cheese
04-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Pretty sure that's Jesus.

-Matt

I'm no Biblical scholar, but I don't recall him ever flying, mostly just walking from place to place. I'm pretty sure he has islandwalk though.

mordraid
04-02-2012, 12:24 PM
I'm tinkering with my sideboard. The local tournaments have around 45-60 people in it, wich mostly are the same 35-40 players. There is a good diverse field with some rogue deckes running around. The common faces are U/W stoneforge, delver, elves combo, high tide, maverick and some storm player. I don't expect a lot of dredge but it shows up sometimes and it's pilot is a very good player so, i'll have to be prepared.

Here's my curent sideboard list:

Sideboard:

2x enlightened tutor
1x tajuru preserver
1x path to exile
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x ethersworn canonist
2x wheel of sun and moon
1x linvala, keeper of silence
1x powder keg
1x circle of protection red

The decks i fear the most are high tide (the guy is really good at it), esper tokens, pox, elves combo and reanimator/dredge.

currently, i've played a lot against MUD, RUG tempo and U/W stoneblade. They aren't that difficult matchups, so i focused more and the decks i fear more rather than the ones i'll face more often.

Any advices ?

Koby
04-02-2012, 01:25 PM
I'm tinkering with my sideboard. The local tournaments have around 45-60 people in it, wich mostly are the same 35-40 players. There is a good diverse field with some rogue deckes running around. The common faces are U/W stoneforge, delver, elves combo, high tide, maverick and some storm player. I don't expect a lot of dredge but it shows up sometimes and it's pilot is a very good player so, i'll have to be prepared.

Here's my curent sideboard list:

Sideboard:

2x enlightened tutor
1x tajuru preserver
1x path to exile
2x choke
2x pithing needle
2x ethersworn canonist
2x wheel of sun and moon
1x linvala, keeper of silence
1x powder keg
1x circle of protection red

The decks i fear the most are high tide (the guy is really good at it), esper tokens, pox, elves combo and reanimator/dredge.

currently, i've played a lot against MUD, RUG tempo and U/W stoneblade. They aren't that difficult matchups, so i focused more and the decks i fear more rather than the ones i'll face more often.

Any advices ?

1. Ignore the Pox matchup; while you can make the deck beat Pox it comes at an expense of your other matchupsr. Adding a 2nd Sylvan Library helps however
2. High Tide: 3 Thalia + 1 Teeg + 2-3 Canonist + 2 Choke should be enough after sideboard. Cut the slower cards (Elspeth, Thrun, maybe even a Knight)
3. Elves and Dredge and Mirror can be addressed with Gut Shot + <bullets>

I'm abandoning the E-tutor sideboard for better answers to known metagames:

2 Gut Shot
1 Path to Exile
2 Parallax Wave
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindbreak Trap

Mindbreak is a bit of an unusual choice, as I'm anticipating more combo to break onto the scene to answer Maverick. It pre-empts it by giving us the second best solution against those decks. Primary plan is still Hate-bears as they provide the clock too, and when they get answered that's when Mindbreak Trap becomes live again. It also isn't going to get taken by Inquisition of Kozilek from T.E.S. and other adaptations. With 6 hate bears and 3 Traps, we should be in a good spot to fight Storm based combo.

Silence might also work too, while providing a good pro-active card against a wide variety of archetypes.

Lorenzo767
04-02-2012, 01:45 PM
1. Ignore the Pox matchup; it makes answering the other matchups better. Adding a 2nd Sylvan Library helps however
2. High Tide - 3 Thalia + 1 Teeg + 2-3 Canonist + 2 Choke should be enough after sideboard. Cut the slower cards (Elspeth, Thrun, maybe even a Knight)
3. Elves and Dredge and Mirror can be addressed with Gut Shot + <bullets>

I'm abandoning the E-tutor sideboard for better answers to known metagames:



I can't understand why you would sideOut Thalia versus Hight Tide! :eyebrow:

About the E-Tutor i absolutely agree with you, i dropped it from some month, i really prefear resilience instead of adaptability, but as a card vs Combo i still prefear Ethersworm Canonist instead of other HateBear or cards like Mindbreak Trap, because it's also reusable in others MU (Not infrequently i sided it vs Burn, just to have one more lightning rod!).
The best things about Mindbreak Trap i think is that it's really good vs Combo like Elf-Combo or Charbelcher that a lot of times go off without any protection, but here those MU aren't so frequently, and for this reason i totally drop Mindbreak Trap from my SB.

Koby
04-02-2012, 01:47 PM
Thalia stays in against High Tide, the " - " was a dash rather than "minus".

KobeBryan
04-02-2012, 06:19 PM
1. Ignore the Pox matchup; while you can make the deck beat Pox it comes at an expense of your other matchupsr. Adding a 2nd Sylvan Library helps however
2. High Tide: 3 Thalia + 1 Teeg + 2-3 Canonist + 2 Choke should be enough after sideboard. Cut the slower cards (Elspeth, Thrun, maybe even a Knight)
3. Elves and Dredge and Mirror can be addressed with Gut Shot + <bullets>

I'm abandoning the E-tutor sideboard for better answers to known metagames:

2 Gut Shot
1 Path to Exile
2 Parallax Wave
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindbreak Trap

Mindbreak is a bit of an unusual choice, as I'm anticipating more combo to break onto the scene to answer Maverick. It pre-empts it by giving us the second best solution against those decks. Primary plan is still Hate-bears as they provide the clock too, and when they get answered that's when Mindbreak Trap becomes live again. It also isn't going to get taken by Inquisition of Kozilek from T.E.S. and other adaptations. With 6 hate bears and 3 Traps, we should be in a good spot to fight Storm based combo.

Silence might also work too, while providing a good pro-active card against a wide variety of archetypes.


Rukcus...you only have 2 MD ooze and 1 bog for the dredge matchup? and the reanimator matchup?

Koby
04-02-2012, 06:20 PM
Rukcus...you only have 2 MD ooze and 1 bog for the dredge matchup? and the reanimator matchup?

And 4 StP, and 1 PtE, and 2 Gut Shot, and 4 GSZ against Dredge...
And 4 StP, and 1 PtE, and 1 O-ring, 1 Maze of Ith, and 4 GSZ against Reanimator...

KobeBryan
04-02-2012, 06:32 PM
And 4 StP, and 1 PtE, and 2 Gut Shot, and 4 GSZ against Dredge...
And 4 StP, and 1 PtE, and 1 O-ring, 1 Maze of Ith, and 4 GSZ against Reanimator...

wow...thats enough for you? Am i doing something wrong when i use like 3-4 cards in my board to fight these matchups? I usually have 2 crypts and a relic in the board with 2 MD oozes.

I still lose the matchup against dredge and reanimator more often than not.

Koby
04-02-2012, 06:36 PM
Well before cutting E-tutor I would bring in: 1 Bog, 1 Crypt, 2 Tutors 2 PtE against Dredge. Having more removal and less "durdling around looking for Crypt" seems like a more sure-fire way to play. They can still get you early with LED/Faithless looting; but more often they take a few turns to get setup. Thalia also helps out in this matchup to slow them from casting spells. The key is to stall with Ooze and get Jitte online to control their Ichorids/Narcomoebas, remove Bridges, then grind them out.

Reanimator is still a race to find Karakas. They still beat you with turn 2 Jin regardless - not much can change that outside of Surgical Extraction. Oftentimes, they are even just on the Show and Tell plan, so not sure how much the G/Y hate helps out more.

KobeBryan
04-02-2012, 06:40 PM
Well before cutting E-tutor I would bring in: 1 Bog, 1 Crypt, 2 Tutors 2 PtE against Dredge. Having more removal and less "durdling around looking for Crypt" seems like a more sure-fire way to play. They can still get you early with LED/Faithless looting; but more often they take a few turns to get setup. Thalia also helps out in this matchup to slow them from casting spells. The key is to stall with Ooze and get Jitte online to control their Ichorids/Narcomoebas, remove Bridges, then grind them out.

Reanimator is still a race to find Karakas. They still beat you with turn 2 Jin regardless - not much can change that outside of Surgical Extraction. Oftentimes, they are even just on the Show and Tell plan, so not sure how much the G/Y hate helps out more.

I see.. I'm always wondering how people use so little gy hate to beat these matchups. I guess its somewhat luck then/

mordraid
04-02-2012, 07:19 PM
I'm sticking with the e-tutor sideboard because, even if it's not card advantage, the sideboard is made to awnser the matchups that you usually don't win. I prefer having somehow 4 of almost each sideboard card, just by adding 2 enlightened tutors. I don't know what i'll face each time so i prefer to be ready for everything i fear.

P.S.
04-03-2012, 10:50 AM
Edit: N/m

Goddik
04-03-2012, 11:14 AM
Ignore it, play around it....

TarmoX
04-04-2012, 09:58 AM
In the punishing fire version of maverick is possible to use Thalia not MD but 2 in SB against combo match??? If right how many is the right number (2 or 3)???

Thanks

wizard_of_gore
04-04-2012, 10:18 AM
put 2-3 thalia's in sideboard. Against combo you should sb in thalias, and sb out punishing fires.
Don't play maindeck thalia with punishing fire - it doesn't make sense.

TarmoX
04-04-2012, 10:51 AM
put 2-3 thalia's in sideboard. Against combo you should sb in thalias, and sb out punishing fires.
Don't play maindeck thalia with punishing fire - it doesn't make sense.


I know Thalia negate the usefulness of Pfire and i'll use in SB in backup vs combo.
You think 2 Thalia are enough?
My SB is:
2 E Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod Crypt
1 Stony Silence
1 Serenity
2 Choke
2 E Canonist
1 RhoxWM
1 PTE
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Thalia???

Thank's in advance

MiniLuv
04-04-2012, 01:48 PM
Storm, High Tide, and Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/Hive Mind is a crapshoot already and we really do not have any sort of clock on these decks. I've been testing and I have pretty much dropped Enlightened Tutor from the SB since Thalia in play makes it suboptimal especially when you draw into it. Your E tutor will most likely go for a Canonist anyway since all your other SB artifacts + enchantments cost 1 more w/ Thalia in play. I upped the Canonist count to 3. I've added Aven Mindcensor back MD to potentially hinder the Tutors/Scrollls/Intuitions + flying is awesome. I'm dedicating SB slots mainly towards the Stoneblade + mirror at the moment.

Not sure if I'm doing SBing vs Storm correctly, but I keep the Jitte's for the pumps to put a fast clock on. I do concede that the turn where I put Jitte into play provides them an opening to combo off.

My list for reference:

2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith


SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 3 Gut Shot
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

wizard_of_gore
04-04-2012, 02:12 PM
@tarmox


Well, thalia is more "maindeck" material.

etherworn canonist and gaddock teeg are fetchable, and maybe better for sb as additional hosers against combo.

TarmoX
04-04-2012, 06:02 PM
@tarmox


Well, thalia is more "maindeck" material.

etherworn canonist and gaddock teeg are fetchable, and maybe better for sb as additional hosers against combo.

@Wizard

Yes i know....... Maybe my right question is: its possible/useful to use Thalia in Pfire Mav or she only add drawbacks???

mordraid
04-04-2012, 08:12 PM
@Wizard

Yes i know....... Maybe my right question is: its possible/useful to use Thalia in Pfire Mav or she only add drawbacks???

everything is possible, but when you look at it carefully, it is anti-synergistic. The main purpose of punishing fire is to cast it multiples times. If it cost 1 more each time, it is becoming a bit mana expensive.

If your meta is mainly aggro and elves and other stuff like that, go with the punishing version. If your meta is more control and combo with some aggro in the mix, then you should opt for the thalia build.

TheXile
04-05-2012, 12:17 PM
Storm, High Tide, and Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/Hive Mind is a crapshoot already and we really do not have any sort of clock on these decks. I've been testing and I have pretty much dropped Enlightened Tutor from the SB since Thalia in play makes it suboptimal especially when you draw into it. Your E tutor will most likely go for a Canonist anyway since all your other SB artifacts + enchantments cost 1 more w/ Thalia in play. I upped the Canonist count to 3. I've added Aven Mindcensor back MD to potentially hinder the Tutors/Scrollls/Intuitions + flying is awesome. I'm dedicating SB slots mainly towards the Stoneblade + mirror at the moment.

Not sure if I'm doing SBing vs Storm correctly, but I keep the Jitte's for the pumps to put a fast clock on. I do concede that the turn where I put Jitte into play provides them an opening to combo off.

My list for reference:

2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith


SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 3 Gut Shot
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

I am curious about the 1 of Linvala, Keeper of Silence in the board. The issue I see is that there is NO way to fetch her up with this deck. To make matters worse, the deck she's best against (Elves) the fastest you could even hardcast her is turn 3 (which would probably crush their plans...but much later than turn 3 isn't very useful). I know the main reason is actually against opposing Maverick decks, but again, with no ways to fetch her you're hoping for the long drawn out game, of course by that time she shuts down...stoneforge cheating equipment (not very useful), Scavenging Ooze (useful..but in the late game he's most likely already big), Knight of the Reliquary (still useful, but again in the late game he's probably monstrous) and of course stopping Noble Heirarch/Dryad arbor from providing mana (again..in the late game, not a big deal). The fact that you're only running 1 sylvan library pretty much means that more often than not you won't see her when you need her. Don't get me wrong, I like 1 of's in the sideboard, but I use the E-tutor package, in that instance to give me psuedo 3-4 of's, I don't see how using any 1 of's you can't search for in an aggro deck is that viable of an option.

MiniLuv
04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
I am curious about the 1 of Linvala, Keeper of Silence in the board. The issue I see is that there is NO way to fetch her up with this deck. To make matters worse, the deck she's best against (Elves) the fastest you could even hardcast her is turn 3 (which would probably crush their plans...but much later than turn 3 isn't very useful). I know the main reason is actually against opposing Maverick decks, but again, with no ways to fetch her you're hoping for the long drawn out game, of course by that time she shuts down...stoneforge cheating equipment (not very useful), Scavenging Ooze (useful..but in the late game he's most likely already big), Knight of the Reliquary (still useful, but again in the late game he's probably monstrous) and of course stopping Noble Heirarch/Dryad arbor from providing mana (again..in the late game, not a big deal). The fact that you're only running 1 sylvan library pretty much means that more often than not you won't see her when you need her. Don't get me wrong, I like 1 of's in the sideboard, but I use the E-tutor package, in that instance to give me psuedo 3-4 of's, I don't see how using any 1 of's you can't search for in an aggro deck is that viable of an option.

Linvala also shuts down Mom/Pridemage/Ranger. But, I do agree with what you have said. It is definitely one of the more questionable slots in the SB since it is untutorable + the only 1 of 4 drops I was ever comfortable with was the Elspeth and sometimes a MD Thrun. I'm still trying it out and was thinking of upping the count to 2 in the SB and cutting the Krosan Grip or just replacing Linvala with another Elspeth SB. I honestly do not have too many qualms with having an untutorable high CC 1 of since it is something you do not want to have multiples of (e.g. 2 Elepseths) in your opener as they are dead cards in the opening turns.

I've also been considering cutting the third Ooze for a second library to better find the 1 + 2 of's in the MD/SB since Ooze, while useful in the mid-late game, is situationally good in the early game because there might not be anything useful in the graveyard yet. I think it has helped establish my board position early by encouraging my opponent's to use early removal on it that otherwise would have been used on KoTR. Ooze is not going to get as big anytime soon vs SFM decks since StP + PtE are used extensively as removal. The main way I see it getting to eat up creatures is if a Jitte has been used. Eating lands to shrink opposing KoTR/awesome MD grave hate is a key reason it is used so maybe my expectations shouldn't extend too far beyond that.

The Duck!!
04-05-2012, 02:34 PM
IMO,the 1 of Linvala in the SB is good in the loyal retainers maverick variant. It'll work very well against stone-blades and mirror maverick decks.

from Cairo
04-06-2012, 02:00 AM
Linvala seems good as a 1-of against the mirror. I don't think her being unfetchable is that relevant. She's proactive and pretty bomby, so I think it's fine to rip in an opening 7 or in top-deck mode. I can't see running multiples due to the competition for the 4cc slot and her being Legendary.

Asthereal
04-06-2012, 05:53 AM
I agree that Thalia is main deck material.
I'm actually thinking about including a fourth in the main.
Thalia just improves all our bad matchups. I would like to see one in every opener except in the mirror or against heavy aggro (but then we should side them out obv).

Since Thalia is so strong and does not work at all with Punishing Fire, I think we should not play Punishing Fire anymore. Besides, I usually see the GW version score better anyway.

Kelm
04-06-2012, 07:10 AM
Arguing that Linvala is "bad" because she's a one-of and can't be tutored is a terrible argument. Should we cut Elspeth also? She's untutorable and also a one-of?

Linvala improves the mirror and i definetly need to test if Linvala and/or Gideon gives the edge which i'm currently looking for.

I mean, it's not even hard to protect her. With Mom and Karakas you can softlock your opponent out of the game.

TheXile
04-06-2012, 09:00 AM
Arguing that Linvala is "bad" because she's a one-of and can't be tutored is a terrible argument. Should we cut Elspeth also? She's untutorable and also a one-of?

Linvala improves the mirror and i definetly need to test if Linvala and/or Gideon gives the edge which i'm currently looking for.

I mean, it's not even hard to protect her. With Mom and Karakas you can softlock your opponent out of the game.

Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I am by no means claiming Linvala is bad nor that she doesn't belong in Maverick. My point is more a statistical one. As a 1 of in the deck that can't be tutored for (outside the fauna shaman build), the likelihood that you will see her within the first 15 turns is quite low (discounting fetches) it should be around 37% (1/60 *22 oppurtunities..and yes I know it's actually 1/60+1/59+1/58...but I don't feel like calculating that)

Koby
04-06-2012, 01:24 PM
Maybe it's just a string of bad MTGO shuffles, maybe its a string of bad luck - but I feel that the increased land count (23) and 3 Thalias are hurting the deck's consistency compared to having tutoring plan with Stoneforge Mystic. This is especially true playing against decks that aren't Stoneblade/RUG/mirror.

KobeBryan
04-06-2012, 06:43 PM
How come no one uses tabernacle to fight dredge, token decks, and other creature ramping decks, affinity, elves?

MiniLuv
04-06-2012, 06:55 PM
How come no one uses tabernacle to fight dredge, token decks, and other creature ramping decks, affinity, elves?

Because we are one of those creature ramping decks

KobeBryan
04-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Because we are one of those creature ramping decks

yea...not saying it should be MD...but maybe a sideboard card to stop those elves, goblins, or dredge.

I know elves is a very very difficult matchup

Koby
04-06-2012, 07:05 PM
yea...not saying it should be MD...but maybe a sideboard card to stop those elves, goblins, or dredge.

I know elves is a very very difficult matchup

Elves can combo out and ignore Tabernacle with Gaea's Cradle - not the best solution against them.

KobeBryan
04-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Elves can combo out and ignore Tabernacle with Gaea's Cradle - not the best solution against them.

Then how do you guys fight combo elves.

That matchup is harder than playing against ANT

I know we use like 2-3 ethersworn cannonist..is that about it?

Koby
04-06-2012, 07:13 PM
Then how do you guys fight combo elves.

That matchup is harder than playing against ANT

I know we use like 2-3 ethersworn cannonist..is that about it?

Canonist to slow them down form comboing, then Jitte to clean up their board. StP/Gut Shot/Path to Exile to stop them from early combo. This is another matchup where having access to SFM->Jitte is pretty important.

RJM
04-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Canonist to slow them down form comboing, then Jitte to clean up their board. StP/Gut Shot/Path to Exile to stop them from early combo. This is another matchup where having access to SFM->Jitte is pretty important.

Having an EE in the board has been great to supplement the above plan as well. Not to mention it's usefulness in the mirror, etc.

lordofthepit
04-07-2012, 09:26 AM
Before Dark Ascension, you had the normal G/W Maverick decks, Naya Maverick decks that added Punishing Fire for better game against control and weenie strategies, and Bant Maverick decks that added Brainstorm, countermagic, Cliques, and Geist for stronger matchups against combo as well as hexproof beaters against control. You could make a case for any of them being the best variant, and all three variants saw significant amount of play.

Recently, it seems like the generic G/W Maverick decks have become more popular. Is Thalia enough to shore up most of the weaknesses against combo, while providing an added boost against control? Obviously, there is dissynergy between Thalia and spells like Punishing Fire/Brainstorm. It seems that most Maverick players believe Thalia + a more stable manabase that will allow more Wastelands is the way to go. Is this the consensus now?

mordraid
04-07-2012, 02:30 PM
Before Dark Ascension, you had the normal G/W Maverick decks, Naya Maverick decks that added Punishing Fire for better game against control and weenie strategies, and Bant Maverick decks that added Brainstorm, countermagic, Cliques, and Geist for stronger matchups against combo as well as hexproof beaters against control. You could make a case for any of them being the best variant, and all three variants saw significant amount of play.

Recently, it seems like the generic G/W Maverick decks have become more popular. Is Thalia enough to shore up most of the weaknesses against combo, while providing an added boost against control? Obviously, there is dissynergy between Thalia and spells like Punishing Fire/Brainstorm. It seems that most Maverick players believe Thalia + a more stable manabase that will allow more Wastelands is the way to go. Is this the consensus now?

Yup, Thalia is THAT good in maverick. The fact that she got first strike is just a sweet bonus with exalted ability. She almost swing everytime at 3/2 - 4/3, wich is pretty good. punishing fire was about the same as maverick but, made to destroy generic maverick. Now Thalia just shut down more the punishing strategy, so why playing something else ?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-07-2012, 04:47 PM
I dunno, I'd rather run Jace myself. Also before people talk about how Thalia has suddenly made the deck amazing, keep in mind that only about half of the lists (at least from what I've seen) that have been Top 8'ing have been maindecking her, and that usually as a two of.

The deck's doing well because more people are playing it and the fundamentals of the deck are really strong. The variance of individual lists is relatively unimportant as long as they stick to the core strategy; GSZ toolbox, equipment, mana ramp, Knights.

Not to say that there's not a best list or that people shouldn't work on finding it, but I wouldn't get so wrapped up in a card that some lists are running as a two or three of that you start thinking that's what's making the deck work.

I have a question for some of the Thalia lists though; why do I still see her next to Aven Mindcensor? Since this effect really just gets better in multiples you'd think peoples' go to maindeck hatebear at this point would be Glowrider. Cut the Elspeths and expensive equipment and just run Jitte and maybe a 3/3 Thalia/Glowrider split. At least that would be my first impulse.

Tao
04-08-2012, 01:41 AM
Imo it is not about synergy but about card quality. Glowrider is just too bad while Mindcensor is at the edge of being good enough so some play him and others don't. Wizards probably won't print a 2/1 Flying Flash First Strike Legendary Mindcensor for 1W.

lyracian
04-08-2012, 02:47 AM
New Spoiler -
Sigarda, Host of Herons - 2GWW - Flying, Hexproof, 5/5, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents

Hexproof and Protection from Annihilation and most Black stuff. It lacks Thrun's uncounterability but otherwise seems a really good option.

mordraid
04-08-2012, 08:59 AM
I have a question for some of the Thalia lists though; why do I still see her next to Aven Mindcensor? Since this effect really just gets better in multiples you'd think peoples' go to maindeck hatebear at this point would be Glowrider. Cut the Elspeths and expensive equipment and just run Jitte and maybe a 3/3 Thalia/Glowrider split. At least that would be my first impulse.

You don't really need multiple Thalia effects since only one will slow down combo enough to get through. I've alway fin mindcensor to be so-so. I've cut them a while ago and never looked back.

Fade
04-08-2012, 10:50 AM
I dunno, I'd rather run Jace myself. Also before people talk about how Thalia has suddenly made the deck amazing, keep in mind that only about half of the lists (at least from what I've seen) that have been Top 8'ing have been maindecking her, and that usually as a two of.

The deck's doing well because more people are playing it and the fundamentals of the deck are really strong. The variance of individual lists is relatively unimportant as long as they stick to the core strategy; GSZ toolbox, equipment, mana ramp, Knights.

Not to say that there's not a best list or that people shouldn't work on finding it, but I wouldn't get so wrapped up in a card that some lists are running as a two or three of that you start thinking that's what's making the deck work.

I have a question for some of the Thalia lists though; why do I still see her next to Aven Mindcensor? Since this effect really just gets better in multiples you'd think peoples' go to maindeck hatebear at this point would be Glowrider. Cut the Elspeths and expensive equipment and just run Jitte and maybe a 3/3 Thalia/Glowrider split. At least that would be my first impulse.

I agree, I have not been a fan of Thalia. However, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't really carry it's weight in the deck and a logical choice is to cut back the Stoneforge Mystics to play Thalia. I don't really agree with it which is why I'm exploring other choices in those slots right now.

randomly.anonymous
04-08-2012, 12:10 PM
I agree, I have not been a fan of Thalia. However, Stoneforge Mystic doesn't really carry it's weight in the deck and a logical choice is to cut back the Stoneforge Mystics to play Thalia. I don't really agree with it which is why I'm exploring other choices in those slots right now.

Has Leonin Arbiter been tested in this deck?

Barbed Blightning
04-08-2012, 12:16 PM
New Spoiler -
Sigarda, Host of Herons - 2GWW - Flying, Hexproof, 5/5, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents

Hexproof and Protection from Annihilation and most Black stuff. It lacks Thrun's uncounterability but otherwise seems a really good option.

Nic Fit tech?

Justin
04-08-2012, 01:04 PM
My initial reaction is that the new Angel will work better in Nic Fit decks than Maverick, because getting to six mana to GSZ it out is asking a lot. Still, it rules once it hits the board. It also seems good for those long, stalemated mirror matches (if you could reliably get the mana to cast it that is).

Fade
04-08-2012, 08:41 PM
Has Leonin Arbiter been tested in this deck?

I don't think he has but he doesn't play well with our fetches and our GSZ. Right now I'm testing the Fauna Shaman/Loyal Retainers for Linvala, Iona, a single Thalia, and Elesh Norn so Leonin Arbiter wouldn't do well in that list either.

Right now Maverick has a lot of room to be analyzed and configured to do well. Our main problem right now is going to be playing against other Maverick matches while still putting up enough pressure against combo. Every list has the potential to do well and there is not a "best" list to run yet which is why I'm testing the crap out of different configurations to see which one I'm more comfortable with.

Leonin Arbiter might due well in a Maverick list that runs Thalia/Glowrider and Aven Mindcensor as a way to soft lock the opponent out of the game but you would have to consider cutting or lowering both the GSZ and fetchland count.

baghdadbob
04-09-2012, 01:41 PM
New Spoiler -
Sigarda, Host of Herons - 2GWW - Flying, Hexproof, 5/5, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents

Hexproof and Protection from Annihilation and most Black stuff. It lacks Thrun's uncounterability but otherwise seems a really good option.

This guy seems really good in g/w as a one of target for zenith or to hardcast. Also 5 mana is a bargain and can easily be created when you are running heirarchs/gaes cradle. Definitely a 1 of auto include in my g/w deck.

sir
04-11-2012, 06:50 AM
Whoa, just saw Sigarda.

Looks very easy and seems quite worth it from here, to put at least one in as GSZ target between sideboard and library.

Einherjer
04-11-2012, 07:18 AM
Dear Maverick players,
Please keep playing overcosted and overrated creatures.
Please keep squeezing in all useless new creatures to enable me easy wins.
Please keep relying on nonbasic lands like Gea's Cradle in order to pay for this overcosted creatures.
Please keep splashing as many colors as you'd like to in order to enable me to Stifle-Daze-Waste you into Oblivion.

Okay enough sarcasm. I do not think that these Angels are worth slots in Maverick as they might only be good in Aggro-Control Mirrors. There is literally no way to abuse this creatures in a competitive environment. Imagine to have GSZ = 6 targets when playing Stormcombo, Show and Tell or Canadian. I wouldnt play any of this expensive creatures just in order to dedicate the last few slots to important, strong and undercosted creatures like Thalia.

Hell Thalia is a godess in straight GW-lists. Spend all of this useless slots youd like to fill with some damn Angels with good and undercosted beaters - even white ones.
Thalia is a friggen house against any Combo and is pretty strong versus Tempo too - while shutting off all of our cheap counters and making every spell we play while this creature is laying on ground a pain.
Play more Mindcensors, play Gaddock mainboard, play Terravore but play cheap creatures and DO NOT rely on your deck to support a GSZ > 5 target.

Do not let this deck die. It certainly will if you spend all flex. slots you got with expensive and useless Angels. Keep at the deck's core in order to keep it as strong as it was, is and hopefuly will be in the further metagame.

Greetings

arcannys
04-11-2012, 07:36 AM
Hello everyone,
It's been a while since i posted on this forum and i thought you guys would like a little report about the last tournament i played in.

So 2 weeks ago, i traveled to Turin for the Modern GP. Sadly, I didnt make day 2 in the main event, but that meant I got to play in the sweet legacy side event that they've been doing lately in european Gps.
The tournament had a 2500€ price pool (1000€ for the winner).

So i registered to the tournament with the following list:

// Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist (Left my third trap at home)
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Mortarpod
SB: 2 Choke

The main changes i made was to move the maze of ith to the sideboard. The reason being that i had been sideing it out a lot in most MUs one of those being the mirror match, so I wanted to go a step further.
I moved my mortalpod to the sideboard (which i had been playing MD in the previous couple tournaments) and as you will see, i regreated it the whole tournament.

So here comes the report. We ended up being 140~ players meaning we were off to an 8 round tournament.

R1: jund home-brew
G1: he starts off with inkizition of kozilek off a badlands, so i responded by raising an eyebrow. Later on the game he cast pernicious deed to whipe my board, and followed that up with a troll ascetic, a thrun the last troll, and an umezawa's jitte.
G2: I managed to see a big part of his deck so i sideboard accordingly. Planeswalkers are huge against Deed and i should be fine as long as i didnt overextend myself.
At some point in the game he had a tarmogoyf with a jitte which makes me look like a fool for not siding in the maze of ith (i didnt see goyf in g1), but it cant do anythuing against my sword of body and mind that kills him in 2 turn. I win the game with 3+ creature in my hand just in case.
G3: He gets stuck at 2 lands for a while and at some point he casts Deed with 1 mana up, i cast Qasali and force him to use Deed but he didn't, as 2 of his 4 mana sources were birds of paradise. I win the game easily on the back of a sylvan library that keeps my hand full of gas all the time in case he plays a second deed.
Sideboard:
+1 elspeth +1 nature's claim
-1 gaddock teeg -1 swords to plowshares.
1-0 : 3 points

R2:Combo Elves
This MU is very roll-dependant. And i was lucky to win the die roll in the 2 rounds i played against elves in the swiss.
G1: I STP his early creatures to slow him down, and i win with a quick jitte.
G2: I'm very close to dieing this game, but mortalpod is an absolute house againt this deck. I win on the back of a sword of body and mind, that gives me enough gas for my mortalpod.
Sideboard:
+2 Path to exile +1 mortalpod +1 canonist
-3 thalia -1 gaddock teeg
2-0 : 6 points

R3:High Tide
This round is easily in my top10 badbeats i've ever had in my magic history.
G1: I didnt know what he was playing so i kept a hand with no thalia/zenith/gaddock and died.
G2: I resolved mother, thalia, and zenith for gaddock on consecutive turns and killed him quickly.
G3: We both mulligan to 6. I keep a hand with a turn 2 thalia. He starts off with a ponder, i play a land and pass, he untaps plays a land and.... i died.
Yep, high tide killed me on turn 2 with mulligan to 6 on the play. 2 island is all you need sometimes..
sideboard:
+2 trap +2 choke +1 canonist +2 surgical +1 bojuka bog
-1 garruk -4 STp -1 thrun -1 jitte -1 Stoneforge
2-1 : 6 points

R4:RUG Tempo
G1: I'd like to think i know this MU well enough, but sometimes they just draw too good.
My opponent cast 2 daze and a force of will folowed by 3 tarmogoyf.
He was probably the slowest player in recorded history, not only because he had to think through every play, but because he read every single card I played.
G2: I was feeling pretty good about my chances since my opponent didnt look like he knew what he was doing at all.
Sure enough, he start the game with turn 1 Top turn 2 counterbalance. At this point you can just imagine my face... Not because CB-Top is good againt Maverick (in fact is terrible as you'll see), but because the slowest player on earth had just cast top-CB on turn 2 with 20 mins left on the clock.
As i just mentioned, CB-Top is terrible against our deck. Soon enough he found out he didnt have any 3-4CC cards in his deck so my chokes, KotR and Zeniths for KotR just laught as his coutnerbalance.
G3: He has the same opening and i beat him the same way... There was a point on which i tought i was gonna draw the match, since he cast 4 consecutive submerge on my KotR with my board being 2 Choke and him having his 5 lands tapped.
In the end i managed to pull a win...
sideboard:
+2 Choke +2 Path to exile +2 Surgical +1 Maze of ith
(+1 mortalpod if your oponent is playing lavamancer. My opponent had nimble mangooses.)
-2 qasali -1 garruk -1 gaddock teeg -1 jitte -1 Stoneforge -1 karakas
3-1 : 9 points

R5:Mirror Match
There are 2 kind of Maverick players in my opinion, those who know how to play the mirror match and those who dont.
I was really impressed by my opponent since he played very good the entire round.
G1: He beats me with a better draw than mine.
G2: My Stoneforge for Mortalpod cought him absolutely off guard, and he's never in the game thanks to that.
G3: I have a turn 3 elspeth and he responds with his only out on the deck (Sword of light and shadow) to get passed my 3 blokers and kill it right away. From this point we start the normal attrition war and we end up drawing the match.
I whish him good luck since i'd have rlly loved to replay the match in the top8.
sideboard:
+2 path to exile +1 elspeth +1 mortalpod +1 bojuka bog +1 nature's claim
-3 thalia -1 gaddock teeg -1 karakas -1 KotR(might seem odd, but the mirror match is not about the big guys).
3-1-1 : 10 points

R6:Mirror match
As mentioned early, my oponent was one of those who didnt know how to play the mirror match. He didnt play bad, but it wasnt as close as the previous round.
G1: He kills my mother of runes and plays 3 consecutive KotR which i can't deal with.
G1: Once again Stoneforge for Mortalpod gives me half the match since as i mentioned early, the mirror match is all about the small guys.
G3: I draw my Garruk for the first time in the tournment and i destroy him with it.
sideboard:
-->See round 5<--
4-1-1 : 13 points

R7:Ad nauseam
Just in case the previous rounds had been too easy, i get paired down with another combo deck.
G1: I keep a 5 lander with 2 wastelands, it's usually a fine keep against most decks, but not against the deck that only needs 1 land to win. Yet again i didnt know what he was playing.
G2: I open with mother of runes into thalia folowed by a gaddock teeg and he is never in the game.
G3: I keep a hand with a mindreak trap. My opponent tanks about going off turn 2 before i get the chance to play a thalia. I perform a little bit of hollywood action while he goes off and then I cast trap on his infernal tutor, leaving him with 0 cards in hand.
Tough round that i managed to dodge with a win.
sideboard:
+2 mindbreak trap +2 surgical +1 canonist +2 nature's claim (it can give u free wins if you hit a LED at the proper time)
-4 STP -1 garruk -1 sword of body and mind -1 stoneforge -1 thrun
5-1-1 : 16 points

R8:Combo Elves
I get paired down against a young kid and i feel rlly bad for him since i'll have to dream crush him.
Once again i win the die roll which is one of the most important aspects of this MU.
G1: I STP his first guy and that gives me enough time to stick a jitte.
G2: Being on the draw is the worst on this MU. I have turn 2 Stoneforge for Mortalpod. At this point i feel pretty bad about my chances but he cant quite go off and just plays a Lord and passes. I untap and pass with STP + mortalpod up. He tries to go off and i respond by STPing his lord and using my mortalpod. At this point he has 3 cards in hand and 1 guy in play so i start feeling pretty good about this game. He then cast:
-glimpse of nature
-glimpse of nature
-llanowar elfs
And i died.
G3: i draw my mortalpod in my opener that eventually starts shooting 1/1 deathouch guys from a flipped garruk.
At some point in this match i wasnt paying much attention so i attacked with a garruk token and a guy with a jitte...That guy was a noble hierarch. That was the only missplay i did in the tournament, and what an embarrassing one to do in front of 15+ spectators >.<
Hopefuly that didnt cost me the match since he was too far behind at that point and he krossan gripped my jitte end of turn anyway.
sideboard:
-->See round 2<--
6-1-1 : 19 points

I end up finishing 7th of the swiss and making top8. Sadly my round 4 opponent lost his win-and-in against High Tide so no rematch for me :(

Top8:Combo elves
Sure enough, the karma comes back to haunt me and i loose the die roll.
G1: I mulligan to 5 and I end up loosing with just a land in play taking 21 damage off a grapeshot on turn 2.
G2: I Stoneforge for mortalpod on turn 2, and he's never in the game.
G3: I mull to 6 to a hand of mortalpod 2 lands 3 X, so i'm happy since i drew the best hand possible to draw on a mull to 6.
But as i said before, the die roll is too important in this MU so it ended up not mattering at all and i loose to a horde of 30+ elves on turn 3.

The deck performed very good the whole tournament, even against tough MUs...

I'd probably put the mortalpod back into the MD, but thats just a meta-call.

Pros:
-Making yet another top8 with this deck. The deck is just insanely good if you know what you're doing.
-Winning 85€ that i used to get some T2 cards for the incoming PTQ season..

Cons:
-The warning i got in one of the rounds due to forgetting my own thalia and casting a zenith for its normal cost that i thought would grant me a gameloss.
-Not making day2 in the main event
-Loosing in the top8 to a die-dependant MU and not having been able to do anything about it.

SO there you go.. Hope you guys liked it and I appreciate all the feedback/questions you want to post.

Marc S.

MiniLuv
04-11-2012, 01:21 PM
G2: I resolved mother, thalia, and zenith for gaddock on consecutive turns and killed him quickly.

This is not possible unless you had a Cradle out=]

KobeBryan
04-11-2012, 01:37 PM
Looks like we will be playing against a lot of burn decks. I hate burn decks. I live and die by how lucky they are that day.

Koby
04-11-2012, 01:43 PM
This is not possible unless you had a Cradle out=]


Cons:
-The warning i got in one of the rounds due to forgetting my own thalia and casting a zenith for its normal cost that i thought would grant me a gameloss.

RE: Phillip -
You're definitely right, the deck is pretty much locked in at 54 cards for straight GW versions, with the only room to change is 1-2 land slots and the white creatures. It's strength comes from its consistency and adding more high variance cards such as Elesh Norn, Fauna Shaman, and the new Sigarda angel will reduce its consistency.

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 02:06 PM
I think, Sigarda may really be worth 1 slot... its an UNDERcostet beater, that's just nuts in quite many situations - Next to the fact, Zenith für 5 is possible, 6mana is not to hard to get for the deck... You sure will have situations where you wont be able to pay 6 (or even 7) mana für a Zenith to fetch Sigarda but you will nearly always have 5mana to hardcast her, so the card won't be a dead draw...
And i dont think you can compare fauna shaman + retainer + elesh norn with sigarda, which needs ONE slot to own certain matchups...
But for sure i agree with the fact, that you never want to play more then 1 of theese angels...
By the way: Gaeas cradle is great in straight GW, not only for greater Zeniths but also for more devastating scavenging oozes...

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

PS: What none of us germans understands is, why many american players cut aven mindcensor... This card is just insane and i would never play a list without atleast 2 of theese birds...

KobeBryan
04-11-2012, 02:08 PM
I think, Sigarda may really be worth 1 slot... its an UNDERcostet beater, that's just nuts in quite many situations - Next to the fact, Zenith für 5 is possible, 6mana is not to hard to get for the deck... You sure will have situations where you wont be able to pay 6 (or even 7) mana für a Zenith to fetch Sigarda but you will nearly always have 5mana to hardcast her, so the card won't be a dead draw...
And i dont think you can compare fauna shaman + retainer + elesh norn with sigarda, which needs ONE slot to own certain matchups...
But for sure i agree with the fact, that you never want to play more then 1 of theese angels...
By the way: Gaeas cradle is great in straight GW, not only for greater Zeniths but also for more devastating scavenging oozes...

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

PS: What none of us germans understands is, why many american players cut aven mindcensor... This card is just insane and i would never play a list without atleast 2 of theese birds...

Ask Koby...he is the best maverick player in the states.

Koby
04-11-2012, 02:11 PM
PS: What none of us germans understands is, why many american players cut aven mindcensor... This card is just insane and i would never play a list without atleast 2 of theese birds...

Mindcensor is good in some matchups, but not typically the ones which are most common. Against Stoneblade and Threshold, you're going to be facing a deck with a ton of removal and a 2/1 is not the best place to be against Bolts and Swords. For 3 mana, we want to be casting a big threat, not a mild annoyance.

baghdadbob
04-11-2012, 02:36 PM
@Koby So you don't think that the new angel is worth trying out? In my opinion 5 mana is easy for this deck to create, and if you are only running 1x the chances of it being in your opener are very slim. It seems like a windmill slam game ender, and just tells killing wave (which I suspect will be good against us, and see alot of play) and less so importantly Lilliana and gatekeeper to eat a poop. I will test it and let you guys know if it really does suck, and it might! :smile:

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 02:42 PM
Well lets say, against Canadian mindcensor will atleast block a flipped delver and any other creatures should not be a problem for knights...
You surely are right about some matchups where mindcensor is just too weak, but look at the mirror (which you WILL have to play at every bitter tournament) or nic fit with explorers... I had more then 1 game, where mindcensor in rsp on therapy won the game...
By the way: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7506&iddeck=54464 here the decklist i did not change until today...
But at the moment i tend to play straight GW again, just cause there are more combodecks again running around here in Germany...

Looking forward to play this with the upcoming edition (i dont care about temporal mastery, since it will be banned anyway^^ (or brainstorm))

GW "For the Shire"

//lands (22)
4x savannah
4x windswept heath
2x verdant catacombs
2x forest
1x plains
2x horizon canopy
4x wasteland
1x karakas
1x gaea's cradle
1x dryad arbor

//creatures (26)
4x noble hierarch
4x mother of runes
1x scryb ranger
2x scavenging ooze
1x sigarda, host to herons
2x thalia, guardian of thraben
3x aven mindcensor
2x stoneforge mystic
4x knight of the reliquary
2x qasali pride-mage
1x gaddock teeg

//other spells (12)
4x swords to plowshares
4x green sun's zenith
2x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of feast and famine
1x sylvan library

//sideboard (15)
3x aethersworn canonist
3x surgical extraction
1x thrun, the last troll
1x elspeth, knight errant
1x garruk relentless
3x path to exile (i really dont want to loose against tempodecks)
2x krosan grip
1x bojuka bog

For explanations / questions about single cardchoices, contact me...
Greetz,
Marius

Einherjer
04-11-2012, 02:52 PM
Even though I do not agree on all points with Marius you guys should respect him a little more. He is one of Europe's Kobys! When you get what I mean...

Even though I am mostly a Maverick consultant and test-opponent and not a dedicated player myself I like 99% of Hausmanns list. Every single card agrees with my understanding of Maverick, but the goddamn Angel but well^^
To above: I didnt mean to make Cradle bad, I was more like saying that Cradle is terrible in GWX-decks, in straight GW its fine.
I think this Angel should be a third Thalia but whatever.
And I would question the 1off Library but I think its fine aswell.

Greetings

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 03:04 PM
Yeah, if you dont like the angel, just play 3. thalia, 3. ooze or a maindeck thrun - thats fine too :-)

baghdadbob
04-11-2012, 03:21 PM
I agree. I certainly wouldn't play the new angel and a g/w/x deck just g/w, much like cradle.

Koby
04-11-2012, 04:36 PM
I certainly don't think the angel is something that Maverick needs. The best attribute from Sigarda is Hexproof and Flying; the third ability is a wash. She still dies to Wrath of God and Perish - this much doesn't change. Which cards does the angel specifically protect Maverick from? I don't think having a 5 mana hay-maker 5/5 bomb is any better than having more Knights or any other self-protecting flier. Is she any better than Thrun against decks with removal? Is she better than Geist of Saint Traft?

@ Baghdad-bob
Are people playing The Gate still? I wasn't aware that this was playable again. I suppose Maverick might have trouble against any decent draw from The Gate, but I haven't even playtested against this deck in over half a year.

@ Marius
It's just my own opinion and preference, but I'd rather have Terravore in the mirror and against most Tempo decks. He is almost always sure to connect and represents a really fast clock against a majority of the format. Mindcensor I don't feel provides enough advantage even though it can lead to blind wins, and I mean by this that it's very difficult to evaluate how precisely Mindcensor leads to victories because of imperfect information.

As usual, the mirror still comes down to two key factors: knowing how to play the mirror, and whoever can maintain an active Mother of Runes.

For this reason, I added Gut Shot to the sideboard to provide removal on Moms without generating tempo for my opponent. Both Path to Exile and regular StP means leaving yourself in a situation where you have to use mana and possibly accelerate the opponent. Gut Shot fixes this by nature of its free cost. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on Noble Hierarch too.

barrozo
04-11-2012, 04:42 PM
Uh, I must be missing something about Sigarda...

- As an undercosted (flying) beater: Knights are usually bigger and cheaper. Elspeth makes any dude a flying beater.
- As an untargetable dude: Thrun (cheaper) already plays this role, not to mention Moms protecting others. I don't really feel the need of another hexproof creature.
- As a sacrifice protection utility against Eldrazi: Karakas (or Knights fetching it) do the trick against Show and Tell. Against Sneak Attack, probably the angel is not fast enough to stop them.
- As a sacrifice protection utility against black: Come on, is it really worth wasting a slot in a tight list just to protect your mana-dorks from being eaten?
- As a mirror-breaker card: Maybe so. A little bit slow, though...

IMHO, she is not good enough to worth the slot. Even in a flex slot, I can think of many other cards before considering her.

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 05:43 PM
Koby u are right saying, that the anti-sac ability is completely wayne...
But dont underestimate the fact having another flying Jitte-carrier that does not get held back by maze of ith... (you dont run mindcensors either, so i think, both of us have just a bit different strategies playing the deck - and obvious both work quite well :-) )
For my part i just love to have a flyer with equipment on it to defeat other mavericks, ecspecially killing their mothers with jitte-counters (and sry, nothing personal - but i'll neverever play gutshot^^)
For the Thrun-argument: Actually i play Thrun or a witness in this slot, but as i said before, i'm definetly going to test Sigarda in this slot due to her flying ability -> how useful flying is you can see when you look at lists that play an Elspeth maindeck.
Last but not least: YES, she is better then Geist of St. Traft^^

Koby
04-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Koby u are right saying, that the anti-sac ability is completely wayne...
But dont underestimate the fact having another flying Jitte-carrier that does not get held back by maze of ith... (you dont run mindcensors either, so i think, both of us have just a bit different strategies playing the deck - and obvious both work quite well :-) )
For my part i just love to have a flyer with equipment on it to defeat other mavericks, ecspecially killing their mothers with jitte-counters (and sry, nothing personal - but i'll neverever play gutshot^^)
For the Thrun-argument: Actually i play Thrun or a witness in this slot, but as i said before, i'm definetly going to test Sigarda in this slot due to her flying ability -> how useful flying is you can see when you look at lists that play an Elspeth maindeck.
Last but not least: YES, she is better then Geist of St. Traft^^

Definitely agree on fliers in Legacy. I've been saying it for more than a year now regarding evasion of any type. I'm thinking that even Soltari Visionary or some equivalent might be interesting as an evasive creature. What about Stillmoon cavalier? Just some ideas to generate discussion. I don't think a 5 mana flier is the place we want to be.

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 06:23 PM
For sure its true that Sigarda would be better as a 4mana 4/4 flyer with hexproof but its not me, who makes the cards...
Cavalier is not tutorable via Zenith whyle Sigarda is - i did not find a better flyer thats a threat for himself, so i'm going to test her - Once more, i dont think 5mana are a problem for GW, exspecially not with a cradle in the deck - Elspeth maindeck maybe an option too but first, i dislike the antisynergie with Teeg and second the pumped creature flies only in your turn... Beneath the fact that you have a real hard threat you can defend urself easier vs. lingering souls-tokens, delver or even a tombstalker... (if it would not cost 7mana, i even would consider hornet queen as finisher^^)

Koby
04-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Jenara, Asura of War
Stoic Angel
Mystic Enforcer

Wasteland
04-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Yeah... 2 of them request blue to hardcast, 1 has only flying, as long as you have ur grave (=opp not having an ooze) - and none of them has hexproof...
Before i play any of them i would prefer to play Elspeth (as u do in ur list)...

Koby
04-11-2012, 06:53 PM
All of this is true. I do notice that Elspeth is getting stranded in my hand with Thalia in the deck now, with Teeg it wasn't such a big deal, but now with 3-4 hatebears its becoming more common to have it stranded in hand. I may simply swap her out to the sideboard for the 3rd Thalia maindeck.

Fade
04-11-2012, 07:34 PM
Besides the interaction between Fauna Shaman, Loyal Retainers, and Iona/Elesh; I believe Fauna Shaman has some merit on it's own. Having a pseudo Survival of the Fittest is never a bad thing. It allows us to run situational cards like a one-of Stoneforge Mystic, Linvala, Aven Mindcensor, and Thalia that we can tutor for specific situations.

For example, you have 4 mana and your opponent plays a merchant scroll/infernal tutor. You sack a creature in your hand and search up the aven mindcensor and cast it to prevent their combo from continuing. You can also break up stalemates by fetching up the stoneforge mystic and grabbing either sword of light and shadow or a Jitte.

I'm going to be testing something close to the list below this weekend. Let me know what you think as it's a rough draft right now. I also listed some options if you did not want to play the Loyal Retainers plan.

Lands (22):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Gavony Township
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas

Creatures (26):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Fauna Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Loyal Retainers ---> Could replace with 3rd Pridemage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria ---> Could replace with Stoneforge

Spells (12):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15):
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite ---> Could replace with 2nd Linvala
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Parallax Wave
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gut Shot

Mark Sun
04-11-2012, 11:45 PM
Isn't Elesh Norn a better maindeck target right now?

baghdadbob
04-11-2012, 11:48 PM
Isn't Elesh Norn a better maindeck target right now?

Seems like a meta game call. Maybe he sees less aggro irl.

Fade
04-12-2012, 12:42 AM
Isn't Elesh Norn a better maindeck target right now?

Elesh Norn is great in the mirror and versus swarm decks. The mirror is beatable game one if you know what you are doing. It normally ends up as a grindy game and fauna shaman can turn your Noble Hierarchs into a Terravore or into a Knight. Against the swarm decks the mainboard Jittes help. Our worst match is combo based strategies which is where Iona comes into play. Most combo if you name a specific color it is impossible for them to win game one. Even in some of the swarm decks like goblins, if Iona is out naming red then you have basically won the game. This can also happen with Pox, Burn, High tide, and some versions of storm.

I guess I would rather have the Iona to slightly improve the match ups that are tougher for the deck to win against than having an Elesh Norn that completely blows out decks that we have a better match up against.

mordraid
04-12-2012, 09:21 AM
Quick question for you guys.

I'm going to a 1000$ tourney this weekend and i'm planning on playing maverick. I've never been a fan of aven minscensor and i'm seriously thinking of removing the 2 i got maindeck. As a replacement, i would probably go with a 4th qasali pridemage and maybe a terravore or linvala, keeper of silence. What you guys think of all this ? got any other suggestions ? I would've liked to add a 3rd scavenging ooze but just can't find another one in time.

Fade
04-12-2012, 09:52 AM
Quick question for you guys.

I'm going to a 1000$ tourney this weekend and i'm planning on playing maverick. I've never been a fan of aven minscensor and i'm seriously thinking of removing the 2 i got maindeck. As a replacement, i would probably go with a 4th qasali pridemage and maybe a terravore or linvala, keeper of silence. What you guys think of all this ? got any other suggestions ? I would've liked to add a 3rd scavenging ooze but just can't find another one in time.

Definitely run Terravore. The 4th Qasali Pridemage is a bit excessive. If you expect to see a lot of other Maverick lists then I would run Linvala main with a Terravore.

Wasteland
04-12-2012, 11:45 AM
If you expect much maverick then i would run 3 mindcensors... terravore can easily be countered by scavenging ooze

Fade
04-12-2012, 11:53 AM
If you expect much maverick then i would run 3 mindcensors... terravore can easily be countered by scavenging ooze

Terravore is a bomb against the mirror. Scavenging Ooze takes time to remove lands from BOTH graveyards and it doesn't even gain counters from doing so. An opposing Maverick player would much rather remove creatures first before hitting lands and then they would probably prioritize playing other creatures out besides the Ooze before eating their opponent's lands. Plus removing lands from your own graveyard is terrible as it shrinks your Knights. Terravore having trample is most definitely relevant and an early game Terravore that's a 6/6 can normally win on it's own if the opponent has not progressed in board state.

Aven Mindcensor isn't that great in the mirror either. It's why people keep cutting it. It's normally a turn or two too slow and can die from a Jitte. The two damage in the air is normally gained right back from a Sword of Light and Shadow, Batterskull, Jitte, or Scavenging Ooze. Aven Mindcensor is too cute to be worthwhile in the mirror as it just stops fetchs, Knight Activations, and GSZ. Linvala is much better at shutting down an opponents Maverick deck and it's only one more mana.

Wasteland
04-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Yeah and bouncable via Karakas...
Seriously, dont tell me how "bad" mindcensor is in the mirror... i think its one of the most important cards in the mirror and i cant count the games which i just won cause of this flyer...

CorpT
04-12-2012, 12:14 PM
Yeah and bouncable via Karakas...
Seriously, dont tell me how "bad" mindcensor is in the mirror... i think its one of the most important cards in the mirror and i cant count the games which i just won cause of this flyer...

That they magically draw? Not like they can Knight for it.

Fade
04-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Yeah and bouncable via Karakas...
Seriously, dont tell me how "bad" mindcensor is in the mirror... i think its one of the most important cards in the mirror and i cant count the games which i just won cause of this flyer...

Point taken, but Linvala is a stronger play if your opponent is trying to top deck a Karakas compared to when you are trying to top deck a Jitte, Scryb Ranger, Batterskull, or Scavenging Ooze to answer Aven Mindcensor.

I have played with Mindcensor and I put him in the same category as Thalia. It's nice against certain decks but other times I just don't want to see it. In Maverick, he is primarily a flyer and without any equipment it just doesn't do enough. Two damage per turn is nice but is easily trumped by a Knight, Terravore, or Equipped/Exalted creature and the gain life from Jitte, Batterskull, and Ooze makes his damage negligible.

Einherjer
04-12-2012, 12:17 PM
Oh god no! I can just refer to my post on the last page...
Why would you want to cut the Aven? He is a bomb in many games. Ever flashed one into an Intuition? Ever manascrewd Opponents? Ever "shut" down their knights? Oh hell why would you cut this cards. Okay you can cut it DOWN to 2 but thats it.

CorpT
04-12-2012, 12:44 PM
Oh god no! I can just refer to my post on the last page...
Why would you want to cut the Aven? He is a bomb in many games. Ever flashed one into an Intuition? Ever manascrewd Opponents? Ever "shut" down their knights? Oh hell why would you cut this cards. Okay you can cut it DOWN to 2 but thats it.

Because it's unreliable at doing all of those? I've played plenty of games with Aven and plenty without. Never missed her and all of the awesome scenarios you describe don't happen nearly as often as you think.

Einherjer
04-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Because it's unreliable at doing all of those? I've played plenty of games with Aven and plenty without. Never missed her and all of the awesome scenarios you describe don't happen nearly as often as you think.
*Surrender* Sometimes you just cannot help people get the optimum of a deck.

Fade
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
*Surrender* Sometimes you just cannot help people get the optimum of a deck.

People are going to create their own opinions. Some Maverick players like the deck due to it's consistency and Aven Mindcensor cannot consistently do what you describe. It falls short of the decks standard. This being said I still believe it does have a slot in the Fauna Shaman version of the deck.

CorpT
04-12-2012, 01:12 PM
*Surrender* Sometimes you just cannot help people get the optimum of a deck.

Results with Aven: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=65&nhigh=2000&dlow=1&mlow=2&ylow=2012&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=Aven+Mindcensor&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

Results without Aven: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=65&nhigh=200&dlow=1&mlow=2&ylow=2012&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=Maverick&format=Legacy&aname=&main=&nomain=Aven+Dmindcensor&side=&noside=&strict=on

Since Feb 1 with 65+ players.

I don't think you can say that Aven is required or optimal. The fact that someone who supports Sigarda also supports Aven makes me question all of their suggestions.

Einherjer
04-12-2012, 01:15 PM
As I am not a fan, believer, disciple or whatever of this Fauna-Maverick-lists I cannont judge whether he is good there or is not. But okay let analyse him a little...

What are Maverick's bad MUs? Mostly Combo-Decks.
Our Birdie is doing excactly what this deck needs - it needs an undercosted and good creature that battles our bad MUs. You all know what cards it hinder - just to name a few, Infernal Tutor, Intuition...
You might say Iona handles this aswell? Well, even if the Aven comes T2-3 it is a lot faster than this Fauna-Shaman-Building-Thingie-Whatever. So it is faster, but okay it is not as effective as Iona. But when does this care? Legacy is a lot about tempo and speed and I would always take the Bird over this Iona-Thingie.

You say Aven makes Maverick less consistent? No it doesnt, It isnt as conditional as you would like it to be. You can play it on your opponents second turn at best to hinder him playing Fetchlands which is a huge move, especially for Maverick. Aven gives this deck flexibility to interact with the stack, to actually CAST something in response.

Even though the Stoneblade-MU is good Aven helps a lot there aswell.

This card is good in the Mirror. No Matter what you are going to say. It shuts off Stoneforge, hinders Knight+Fetchlands, and shuts of the "combo" of this Fauna-Shaman, which hopefuly noone is playing soon any more.

It even has some extra-applications: It blocks Delvers like a Champ and can be quite nice due to its Flashing Ability. It does carry equipment over the enemy lines and hits for quite a lot considering the Equipbonus+Exalted+2 of the birds strength.

If this does not convince you, we might be playing different decks in any way.

CorpT
04-12-2012, 01:23 PM
Why are you comparing Fauna Shaman to Aven Mindcensor?

If you want to fight Combo: Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
If you want to fight Maverick: Linvala (I understand that all opponents magically draw their Karakas all the time, but still...)
If you want to beat Stoneblade and need Aven: Practice more or run SoLaS
If you want to block Delvers: Rock out. Trading your 3 drop for their 1 drop sounds awesome
If you want an unreliable, semi-answer that you get to play as an instant, so it's obviously much better: Play Aven

Einherjer
04-12-2012, 01:26 PM
If you want to fight Combo: Gaddock Teeg, Thalia - Or play these two AND Aven!
If you want to fight Maverick: Linvala (I understand that all opponents magically draw their Karakas all the time, but still...) - Linvala is only good against Maverick, Aven is good versus so many things.
If you want to beat Stoneblade and need Aven: Practice more or run SoLaS - I said that this MU is already easy, but it makes it even more a Bye.
If you want to block Delvers: Rock out. Trading your 3 drop for their 1 drop sounds awesome - I would love to block a 1 drop with a 3 drop. Never felt the pressure of an early Delver?
If you want an unreliable, semi-answer that you get to play as an instant, so it's obviously much better: Play Aven - Yes I want an answer to so many different strategies at instant-speed. That is why I play it.

Julian23
04-12-2012, 01:38 PM
I don't think you can say that Aven is required or optimal. The fact that someone who supports Sigarda also supports Aven makes me question all of their suggestions.

As much as I am a dedicated fighter against "ad hominem", in this case you are talking about the very likely most succesful Maverick pilot in the world. So if you come out comparing sheer finishes w/ or wo/ Mindcensor, you always have to keep in mind that Marius' contributions to this deck are among the most influential ones.

Feel free to cut Mindcensor if you don't like it. For my part, I think two is ok but it's just such a house when flashed in turn2 that it outright wins games.

Regarding Angel vs. Troll: having played both sides of Maverick and the decks said cards are good against, let me say that Hexproof is WAY more annoying than uncounterability. In practice Thrun is always counterable anyway since in 4 out of 5 times you're "casting" him via Zenith=4. So it's basically flying vs. regeneration. The later ain't all that important in the face of basically the only removal hitting it being Perish anyway. Regenerating in combat is fine, but right now I think I'd go with the flying.

I mean, what do you really want in the mirror? Connecting with Jitte before your opponent has a Flyer+Mother of Runes online. With everybody cutting Mindcensors, the Angel becomes even more valueable then as it's also unaffectedby Maze of Ith.

Give it a try, it's got potential to be even better than Thrun. The casting cost wouldn't really bother me. It's not like costing 1 more mana is such a huge deal for this deck anyways.

Fade
04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
EDITED:

I'm pretty sure this thread has had discussions on Aven Mindcensor before. As a generalization, it seems that American players do not find it to carry it's weight when compared to other cards. Whereas European players like the extra hate bear. Yes, Aven is really good within the first few turns of the game, but after that it loses value because Maverick can operate like a well oiled machine off of three or so lands. Yes you can flash it in, in response to our numerous triggers like Knight and it can make our Mystics into squires but the truth of the matter is more and more decks have been cutting the Stoneforge plan and moving to 2 Jitte main. Your bird is only really good for GSZ and Knight activations, both of which the deck can play without.

As for Aven against our worst matchup. Yes, it's good but can you reliably cast it on turn 2? It requires you have it in your hand with 2 lands and a Noble Hierarch. This is where consistency comes into play as a turn 2 Aven is much more significant than a turn 3 Aven. American players are choosing to run Thalia over the bird because it can be cast consistently on turn 2 as well as Ethersworn Canonist. Between Ethersworn, Teeg, and Thalia our match up against combo is good enough to sway the tide and allow us to win without making the other match ups we have worse. Without the Aven Mindcensor we can run more threats that deal more damage or more utility creatures that allow for plays that win us the game.

The reason I even brought up the Fauna Shaman build is because that is what I am currently testing. I want to see if Adam Cai's innovation is worth the slots and as I don't personally like Thalia or Aven Mindcensor why not try out Fauna Shaman because a Survival of the Fittest sounds better than running multiples of a card I'm not really impressed with. Me personally, I would rather have another Scryb Ranger in the deck if I was playing the normal GW Maverick version. This is due to its flexibility with both Dryad Arbor and Noble Hierarch and it's ability to be both an attacker and blocker as well as having protection from blue.

A Scryb Ranger with Sword of Light and Shadow definitely feels like assembling Tron against Esper.

Einherjer
04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
Julian, the Americans got their own Maverick-God Koby, I said this earlier that he is Europe's Koby but they did not listen.

Ive been some testing with this angel this afternoon aswell and I gotta say he is better than I thought and a 5/5 flying is really mightey.

Koby
04-12-2012, 02:06 PM
Eh I'm not sure I like being held up in that high of regard. I just play tight and get lucky.

There's about 6-10 flex slots in the deck right now, and Aven Mindcensor has its place in rotation among them. I think it's more metagame dependent than a matter of optimal decklist - for that we've done a lot of work to streamline the mana base and creature selection.

I think that the 4th Pridemage may have a place in the American metagame right now. It's starting to become a race to Jitte and that is where having expendable removal becomes great. I'd also like to add the 2nd Sylvan Library back in preparation for black removal decks. This is anticipatory however, and I certainly understand playing only 1 still (I remember rationalizing it too about 5 months ago).

Going back to Thalia builds, I feel that Elspeth would be better in the sideboard right now as it gives us the best chance to not have dead cards stuck in hand.

Freggle
04-12-2012, 06:59 PM
When I first saw Temporal Mastery I thought that Maverick would be the most plug-and-play deck to use (especially the non-Punishing lists)

I felt this way because Maverick does not draw more then top decks AND this deck has all the activated abilities / fatties to make it really hurt.

I'm kind of surprised no one is talking about it in here.

Is it not that great to add 1 Tropical Island and 2 Temporal Mastery in this deck?

For potentially additional land drops, Elspeth activations, knight swings / activations ...

You have the Nobles to back up the U sources. ...or am I just chasing hype?

Koby
04-12-2012, 07:12 PM
...or am I just chasing hype?

Pretty much. It hurts mulligans, it does nothing betweens Turn 0 to turn 3, and reduces the threat density of the deck.

RJM
04-12-2012, 07:32 PM
Pretty much. It hurts mulligans, it does nothing betweens Turn 0 to turn 3, and reduces the threat density of the deck.

Agreed. As cool as it sounds to go: T1 land, Hierarch -> T2 rip Temporal Mastery... It's not actually really doing much for you, and it absolutely blows to have in your opener.

VITASOY
04-12-2012, 07:33 PM
If I have mom gsz and noble hierarch, with jitte in hand, who takes the turn 1 drop?

Koby
04-12-2012, 07:34 PM
If I have mom gsz and noble hierarch, with jitte in hand, who takes the turn 1 drop?

Depends on the other lands in your hand, whether you're on the draw or play, and what matchup you're against.

Noble Hierarch would be played ahead of GSZ however.

Fade
04-12-2012, 07:39 PM
If I have mom gsz and noble hierarch, with jitte in hand, who takes the turn 1 drop?

Assuming you have enough lands in hand it might be correct to lead with Mother. Turn 2 play Noble and GSZ for Arbor. Turn three play and equip Jitte on to Dryad Arbor and swing. But this is all hypothetical and match up dependent.

Telkku
04-14-2012, 12:56 PM
I've been following the thread for a long time and slowly buildin my Maverick, though in MWS i've been playing it for a year. One thing im not sure atm, is to use or not to use maze of ith and Teeg MD, sometimes they win you game one, but half of the time they are useless and will be sided and with something usefull in hand the loss in game 1 wouldve been prevented. So what is your thought concerning this atm?

Oh, and been playing that Sigarda MD and SB, and i dont think it has MD potential, since if you have it in opener, its a dead card for quite awhile, but from SB its been really usefull, have you guys allready playtested it?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-14-2012, 02:05 PM
It seems amazing to me that anyone would call Aven Mindcensor undercosted. He costs three mana. Three! If they spend one (or less) mana to kill it, that's an incredibly huge tempo swing. Knight is the same thing except much harder to kill and has a huge body. How big is Mindcensor again? Oh right, he's a Coral fucking Eel. He's actually worse than Glowrider because Glowrider actually stops combo from going off most of the time, and has synergy with the rest of the deck, especially played next to Thalia.

And that's assuming you want something just against combo. Hell, he's worse than Mana Tithe for that, which again combos with other cards in your deck and hits every other deck beyond trying to occasionally dead a fetchland (with middling success; I know I've found a relevant land in my top four probably at least half the time I've played against people running this guy.)

CorpT
04-14-2012, 02:31 PM
I've been following the thread for a long time and slowly buildin my Maverick, though in MWS i've been playing it for a year. One thing im not sure atm, is to use or not to use maze of ith and Teeg MD, sometimes they win you game one, but half of the time they are useless and will be sided and with something usefull in hand the loss in game 1 wouldve been prevented. So what is your thought concerning this atm?

I can't imagine not playing them. They're silver bullet tutor targets for common matchups. For only taking up two slots in the deck, they're incredibly powerful.


It seems amazing to me that anyone would call Aven Mindcensor undercosted. He costs three mana. Three! If they spend one (or less) mana to kill it, that's an incredibly huge tempo swing. Knight is the same thing except much harder to kill and has a huge body. How big is Mindcensor again? Oh right, he's a Coral fucking Eel. He's actually worse than Glowrider because Glowrider actually stops combo from going off most of the time, and has synergy with the rest of the deck, especially played next to Thalia.

And that's assuming you want something just against combo. Hell, he's worse than Mana Tithe for that, which again combos with other cards in your deck and hits every other deck beyond trying to occasionally dead a fetchland (with middling success; I know I've found a relevant land in my top four probably at least half the time I've played against people running this guy.)

What IBA said.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-14-2012, 04:11 PM
Maze of Ith is a silver bullet for 50% of the decks in the field. Gaddock Teeg is a silver bullet for 5% of the decks in the field. I think one's a lot easier to justify than the other, although obviously the value of Teeg varies depending upon the expected composition of the metagame you plan on running him in.

baghdadbob
04-15-2012, 01:32 AM
Knight is the same thing except much harder to kill and has a huge body.

Not that I disagree with you about knight being better, but how is he harder to kill, aside from the fact that he has a bigger body? He does have evasion. Or are you trying to say that he is harder to kill because he has a bigger body? Just a bit confused by your phrasing.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
04-15-2012, 01:35 AM
Not that I disagree with you about knight being better, but how is he harder to kill, aside from the fact that he has a bigger body? He does have evasion. Or are you trying to say that he is harder to kill because he has a bigger body? Just a bit confused by your phrasing.

He's harder to kill because he has a bigger body. He doesn't really care about red removal or Jitte, for instance.

baghdadbob
04-15-2012, 01:37 AM
It seems amazing to me that anyone would call Aven Mindcensor undercosted. He costs three mana. Three! If they spend one (or less) mana to kill it, that's an incredibly huge tempo swing. Knight is the same thing except much harder to kill and has a huge body. How big is Mindcensor again? Oh right, he's a Coral fucking Eel. He's actually worse than Glowrider because Glowrider actually stops combo from going off most of the time, and has synergy with the rest of the deck, especially played next to Thalia.

And that's assuming you want something just against combo. Hell, he's worse than Mana Tithe for that, which again combos with other cards in your deck and hits every other deck beyond trying to occasionally dead a fetchland (with middling success; I know I've found a relevant land in my top four probably at least half the time I've played against people running this guy.)


He's harder to kill because he has a bigger body. He doesn't really care about red removal or Jitte, for instance.

Gotcha, I was just a little confused by the "and" in your sentence.

Vandalize
04-15-2012, 03:16 AM
For those who dropped SFM already. How many copies of Jitte/Swords are you running main deck?

PS: That Sigarda girl (what an awful name, christ...), is better suited in Nic Fit, that can ramp better than GW Maverick. Zenith X=5 is pretty bad, because Thrun already does the job.

Telkku
04-15-2012, 05:16 AM
PS: That Sigarda girl (what an awful name, christ...), is better suited in Nic Fit, that can ramp better than GW Maverick. Zenith X=5 is pretty bad, because Thrun already does the job.[/QUOTE]

I dropped Thrun month ago, it just didn't help me that much more. Pros with Sigarda are that ( not usual but still ) if opponent plays plays Sneak and Show and show and tell's Emrakul, i can just block it without saccing anything (of course i have to have it in hand, but still) and of course you beat Pox with it and i've been facing kinda lot Pox. I don't think its MD card, but nice in SB.

Artlee
04-15-2012, 10:32 AM
... and of course you beat Pox with it and i've been facing kinda lot Pox. I don't think its MD card, but nice in SB.

After game 1 I'm pretty sure the Pox player sides in Perish anyway.

Telkku
04-15-2012, 11:21 AM
After game 1 I'm pretty sure the Pox player sides in Perish anyway.

True, but usually just 2, and he propably uses that before you cast Sigarda. Like if the table is : hierarch, KotR and Ooze, he uses it, then you cast Sig and it helps alot for the rest of the game.

Fade
04-15-2012, 11:42 AM
True, but usually just 2, and he propably uses that before you cast Sigarda. Like if the table is : hierarch, KotR and Ooze, he uses it, then you cast Sig and it helps alot for the rest of the game.

Have you played against pox? Most of the time they are killing all of your dudes through Liliana, innocent blood, ghastly demise, and small pox. If you have a board of three dudes then the pox player didn't keep a good hand because they also attack your mana base and even getting to 3 mana can be tough at times. So, realistically casting a 5cc angel may not be possible with wasteland, smallpox, and sinkholes.

RJM
04-15-2012, 04:57 PM
Have you played against pox? Most of the time they are killing all of your dudes through Liliana, innocent blood, ghastly demise, and small pox. If you have a board of three dudes then the pox player didn't keep a good hand because they also attack your mana base and even getting to 3 mana can be tough at times. So, realistically casting a 5cc angel may not be possible with wasteland, smallpox, and sinkholes.

Being one who play's Pox regularly as well as Mav, this is what I was going to say. If you're counting on casting a 5 mana cost (6 w/ GSZ) card to "beat" Pox... That's just not going to happen.

Valtrix
04-15-2012, 10:16 PM
Hello everybody. It's been awhile since I've been active in the Magic community, but I have been just theory-crafting some of my own stuff and made a list similar to the lists in this thread. I must apologize though, as I have not read most of this thread, so I have a few questions that I'd like addressed. But first, I will list the (rough) decklist that I put together and that I'm working from:


// Lands
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [RAV] Plains (2)
1 [R] Taiga
3 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Plateau
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
1 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [CMD] Punishing Fire
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [NPH] Batterskull


I have felt like the meta is much more aggro oriented, so I went with an approach to deal with aggro metagame a bit more than control/combo, but here are some of my questions(in no particular order):

1) How does grim lavamancer seem? While I understand there is very clear disynergy with the graveyard reliant cards like Punishing fire, knights, and scavenging ooze, it seems to me that this guys is incredibly strong in the current format, as it answers so many creatures at the current moment. As such, any disynergy seems like a more than worthwhile trade.

2) How necessary is thalia/aven mindcensor in the current meta? I understand that this is mostly an answer to combo, but the body seems kind of meh to me. Perhaps the utility makes up for that, but I don't see either of them doing quite enough. I admit that I haven;t played with them, so I don't have perspective.

3) Is wasteland necessary? I opted out in order for 3 color consistency. I think this is a reasonable conclusion, if I want to play 3 colors.

4) What about SFM? I have read that people are starting to go away from it. Although, in my experience I really like the inevitability and utility/tutoring that he provides. I also think that some control/bigger aggro decks might be gearing up to beat Maverick, so I think that equipment package helps out quite a bit in this matchup. It also seems that the equipment package is very strong in the aggro matchups, including the mirror. I also like being able to turn my 1cc creatures into pretty scary threats.

5) Is EWitness valuable as a Zenith target? Again I see many decklists without it, but I feel like he is more valuable in an equipment running deck, since you can get any destroyed equipment back with it. That said, he feels a bit clunky, and I'm not sure how often I'd actually want it.

6) How many hierarchs? I have played with hierarchs in a lot of different types of decks and I never know how many I want. Sometimes they feel really awesome, and other times I feel like I'm watering down my threats by running a set of these guys and a normal manabase.

7) What role is scryb ranger fulfilling? I feel like there's so many value cards right now, so I'm not sure what ranger's role is.

I'll appreciate any responses, thank you in advance.

akiratheoni
04-16-2012, 03:23 AM
Hey guys, I just top 16'd SCG Open: Phoenix today with G/W Maverick. My list is here on the SCG website: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45478

If you have any questions feel free to ask. The build wasn't perfect but I liked it; maindeck Thrun was awkward since there wasn't much Stoneblade.

I'm not sure if it's been discussed to death here so I'm sorry if it has, but Gut Shot was amazing in the mirror. Let me repeat that. Gut. Shot. Was. Amazing. It kills Moms so easy. I used to run Path to Exile in its place (Gut Shot was a last minute replacement) but I didn't miss it at all. I was planning to play different decks from now on, but I just want to play Maverick more simply because I want to Gut Shot some more Moms.

I have my tournament report typed up for my website and it's set to publish tomorrow or so when it gets proofread; I'll edit my post later when it's ready, but here were my matchups and some random tidbits.

Round 1 - Won, Burn. Won both games at like 1 life. 2-0
Round 2 - Won, G/W Maverick mirror. 2-0
Round 3 - Won, Miracle Gro + Delver (Quirion Dryad), 2-1
Round 4 - Lost, Elf Combo (the guy top 8'd). Mulled to 4 game 2 with a Gut Shot and Gut Shotted him at a crucial moment and won. 1-2
Round 5 - Lost, Dredge. Mulled to five game 2 and won. Mulled to 3 game 3 and lost. 1-2
Round 6 - Won. G/W Maverick mirror (I faced Koby/rukcus here). Gut Shot was awesome here, for both players. Wasteland too. 2-0.
Round 7 - Won. U/W Stoneblade. Almost lost the match due to a crucial misplay that left him at 1 life instead of dead. 2-1.
Round 8 - Won. Punishing Maverick. Mulled to 5 game 1 and won; game 2 was a draw. 1-0.

Hencules
04-16-2012, 03:31 AM
Hi,

i was wondering what a bit of the 'card explanation' was behind most of the tweaking stuff of the deck.

I am trying the list, but some cards seem obsolete to me. My meta game (my playgroup) consists of: u/w stoneblade, nic fit, goblins, merfolk and affinity. It seems playing wouldn't make sense, would it?

I know thrun works great against stoneblade. Does anyone know what cards of the 'standard list' aren't needed for that? I was just wondering what such a deck would look like of the the meta had zero combo:smile:

Koby
04-16-2012, 06:18 AM
Hey guys, I just top 16'd SCG Open: Phoenix today with G/W Maverick. My list is here on the SCG website: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45478

If you have any questions feel free to ask. The build wasn't perfect but I liked it; maindeck Thrun was awkward since there wasn't much Stoneblade.

I'm not sure if it's been discussed to death here so I'm sorry if it has, but Gut Shot was amazing in the mirror. Let me repeat that. Gut. Shot. Was. Amazing. It kills Moms so easy. I used to run Path to Exile in its place (Gut Shot was a last minute replacement) but I didn't miss it at all. I was planning to play different decks from now on, but I just want to play Maverick more simply because I want to Gut Shot some more Moms.

I have my tournament report typed up for my website and it's set to publish tomorrow or so when it gets proofread; I'll edit my post later when it's ready, but here were my matchups and some random tidbits.

Round 1 - Won, Burn. Won both games at like 1 life. 2-0
Round 2 - Won, G/W Maverick mirror. 2-0
Round 3 - Won, Miracle Gro + Delver (Quirion Dryad), 2-1
Round 4 - Lost, Elf Combo (the guy top 8'd). Mulled to 4 game 2 with a Gut Shot and Gut Shotted him at a crucial moment and won. 1-2
Round 5 - Lost, Dredge. Mulled to five game 2 and won. Mulled to 3 game 3 and lost. 1-2
Round 6 - Won. G/W Maverick mirror (I faced Koby/rukcus here). Gut Shot was awesome here, for both players. Wasteland too. 2-0.
Round 7 - Won. U/W Stoneblade. Almost lost the match due to a crucial misplay that left him at 1 life instead of dead. 2-1.
Round 8 - Won. Punishing Maverick. Mulled to 5 game 1 and won; game 2 was a draw. 1-0.

Nice job Jeff! Our game 2 was insane...

Me: Karakas, Mom
U: Karakas, Gut Shot
Me: Savannah Hierarch
U: Wasteland
Me: beats for 1
U: Sav, Mom
Me: Gut shot, Wasteland

turn 4 and we're still with only 1 permanent on the field. LOL

arcannys
04-17-2012, 04:12 AM
I'm not sure if it's been discussed to death here so I'm sorry if it has, but Gut Shot was amazing in the mirror. Let me repeat that. Gut. Shot. Was. Amazing. It kills Moms so easy. I used to run Path to Exile in its place (Gut Shot was a last minute replacement) but I didn't miss it at all. I was planning to play different decks from now on, but I just want to play Maverick more simply because I want to Gut Shot some more Moms.

It's funny how americans are always 2 months behind europe in legacy, and everytime they find a new tech it's like they discovered the panacea. I've been maindecking mortalpod for the last 3 months now.
I was playing sulfur elemental way before CalebD top8'd the GP and everyone in america got a boner looking at it.


1) How does grim lavamancer seem? While I understand there is very clear disynergy with the graveyard reliant cards like Punishing fire, knights, and scavenging ooze, it seems to me that this guys is incredibly strong in the current format, as it answers so many creatures at the current moment. As such, any disynergy seems like a more than worthwhile trade.

As you said it has zero synergy with the deck, plus if you're running punishing fire, why do you need lavamancer anyway?


2) How necessary is thalia/aven mindcensor in the current meta? I understand that this is mostly an answer to combo, but the body seems kind of meh to me. Perhaps the utility makes up for that, but I don't see either of them doing quite enough. I admit that I haven;t played with them, so I don't have perspective.

Thalia is awesome against every deck, not only combo. Its a pain in the ass for stoneblade and Rug tempo. It provides a must-kill thread. Plus its an excelent equipment holder.


3) Is wasteland necessary? I opted out in order for 3 color consistency. I think this is a reasonable conclusion, if I want to play 3 colors.

Wasteland is abolustly necessary and is one of the watermarks of the deck. It true that it add more inconsitency to the 3 cololor versions but thats why im playing the straight GW versions right now.


4) What about SFM? I have read that people are starting to go away from it. Although, in my experience I really like the inevitability and utility/tutoring that he provides. I also think that some control/bigger aggro decks might be gearing up to beat Maverick, so I think that equipment package helps out quite a bit in this matchup. It also seems that the equipment package is very strong in the aggro matchups, including the mirror. I also like being able to turn my 1cc creatures into pretty scary threats.

Stop reading ppl that have no clue about what he's saying.


5) Is EWitness valuable as a Zenith target? Again I see many decklists without it, but I feel like he is more valuable in an equipment running deck, since you can get any destroyed equipment back with it. That said, he feels a bit clunky, and I'm not sure how often I'd actually want it.

I cut it several weeks ago from my lists. spending 3 mana and a turn putting a 2/1 into play is not what you wanna be doing in this format right now. If you're specting a lot of stoneblade my advie is to run a split of SoBaM, SoLaS, jitte. If, in the other hand you're execting a lot of mirror matches i'd run 2 jitte 1 SoBaM


6) How many hierarchs? I have played with hierarchs in a lot of different types of decks and I never know how many I want. Sometimes they feel really awesome, and other times I feel like I'm watering down my threats by running a set of these guys and a normal manabase.

This decks cannot operate without a minimum of 8 mana turn 1 acceleration. The standard package is 3 noble 1 birds (you sometimes need a flying equipment holder) + 4 zenith ofc.


7) What role is scryb ranger fulfilling? I feel like there's so many value cards right now, so I'm not sure what ranger's role is.

Scryb is the second best creature in the deck (after mother of runes), it's the glue that holds the deck together. Don't let anyone tell you the opposite. I'll never run less than 2.

Wasteland
04-17-2012, 04:34 AM
Maybe - but THEY win the big tournaments with theese techs so i think it doesn't matter who discovered it first^^

arcannys
04-17-2012, 04:37 AM
Maybe - but THEY win the big tournaments with theese techs so i think it doesn't matter who discovered it first^^

I was waiting for this kind of response. Very original.

Telkku
04-17-2012, 07:15 AM
I was waiting for this kind of response. Very original.

I think he was being sarcastic..

But otherway around, i wouldnt be like " ITS BECAUSE OF ME YOUR WINNING " either, thats just childish, dont we try to make the deck better together?

novatinhu
04-17-2012, 08:24 AM
My Maverick version has 16 Humans, maybe 1 off?

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Eternal Witness
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130155&d=1334651697

Cavern of Souls
Land
As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
tap: Add :1: to your mana pool.
tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Einherjer
04-17-2012, 08:44 AM
I dont see any merit in this card. You dont want to get your knight countered right? But if its a 1of you would have to tutor it up with..a knight. And if you already have one you will be winning the game in any way and dont really need another one right? You do not really care about a Mother or a Hierach getting countered.

This card is not worth it.

arcannys
04-17-2012, 09:18 AM
I think he was being sarcastic..

But otherway around, i wouldnt be like " ITS BECAUSE OF ME YOUR WINNING " either, thats just childish, dont we try to make the deck better together?

I didnt mean that at all.
I just find funny how americans are always 3 months behind.
Like 1 month ago they still thought Stoneblade was a deck and SCG commentators were like "wow have u seen this GW maverick deck that's starting to pop up?"

lyracian
04-17-2012, 09:36 AM
I dont see any merit in this card. You dont want to get your knight countered right? But if its a 1of you would have to tutor it up with..a knight. And if you already have one you will be winning the game in any way and dont really need another one right? You do not really care about a Mother or a Hierach getting countered.

This card is not worth it.
Maybe 'one of' is not enough but I could see replacing Canopies with them. It is extra tech against Blue decks. You could serach for one in response to a Wrath ready to cast your second Knight the next turn. It could also be useful for dropping Scrub Ranger/Mindcensor once Knight is in play...

Worth some testing in my view.

Fade
04-17-2012, 09:44 AM
I didnt mean that at all.
I just find funny how americans are always 3 months behind.
Like 1 month ago they still thought Stoneblade was a deck and SCG commentators were like "wow have u seen this GW maverick deck that's starting to pop up?"

I'm going to try to reason out why the US decklists may be 3 months behind the European scene, however it might be incorrect but I'm just offering up a possibility so take it with a grain of salt. Feel free to comment though.

Since GW Maverick originated in the European scene the deck was geared to beat the European meta. When Maverick was ported to the US the sideboards and tech were focused to beat what was currently in the US meta. Since the European meta has had time to react with Maverick, it has probably evolved from that causing there to be new tech. However at the same time this tech wasn't needed in the US because no one was hating Maverick out. Now that the US meta has finally recognized that Maverick is a threat we have adopted some of the strategies that the European decks started using.

Tombstalker
04-17-2012, 11:43 AM
I dont see any merit in this card. You dont want to get your knight countered right? But if its a 1of you would have to tutor it up with..a knight. And if you already have one you will be winning the game in any way and dont really need another one right? You do not really care about a Mother or a Hierach getting countered.

This card is not worth it.
I hope this is the case. Every maverick deck ive seen plays between 15 and 19 humans though so id think 2-3 would be brutal since moms thalias and knights wreck alot of strategies just by resolving. The fact that it doesnt etbt and still provides colorless makes it very good.

Kuma
04-17-2012, 12:14 PM
I dont see any merit in this card. You dont want to get your knight countered right? But if its a 1of you would have to tutor it up with..a knight. And if you already have one you will be winning the game in any way and dont really need another one right? You do not really care about a Mother or a Hierach getting countered.

This card is not worth it.

Drawing a second one would suck, but why not run it as a one-of? If you draw it, great, you get uncounterable Knights. If you don't, oh well. If you want to tutor for it with Knight, you could, but that's probably weaksauce.

I don't see the downside of running a single copy in traditional WG Maverick.

DragoFireheart
04-17-2012, 12:27 PM
This deck would greatly benefit from Cavern of Souls. Most of the decks creatures are humans. Having an uncounterable MoM/Knight/Thaila can be huge since it forces them to have removal for those creatures or lose horribly. The fact that it makes any color we may need for humans is icing on the cake.

Some testing should to see if Cavern is worth having main-decked or not.

Julian23
04-17-2012, 12:58 PM
To be fair, the only creature I usually counter (and by that the only thing we're talking about is Force of Will) is Mother of Runes when I don't have a removal spell ready.

And the downside is pretty obvious. It's nonbasic.

Marke
04-17-2012, 01:29 PM
The cavern definately seems worth it. It makes a ton of your guys uncounterable for the only drawback of it being non-basic and not helping cast your other stuff as easily. The colorless thing really shouldn't be a problem as when you're mana is off you can always say wizard to cast quasali pridemage and lavamancer (if you run him). Given so many decks run FoW this is just a must card.
It's just an insane card in legacy as there are so many good humans, i can even think of stuff like using this to cast BoB, delver and snapcaster in some deck for example. Uncounterable bob can really be crucial in some matches.

Koby
04-17-2012, 01:34 PM
It never occurred to me that counter strategies were that much of a liability for Maverick. I've lost far more games to active Jace than to repeated counterspells. I don't think Maverick particularly cares for this land too much. It adds more constraints to the mana base rather than improve generic matchups that are bad.

KobeBryan
04-17-2012, 01:36 PM
The cavern definately seems worth it. It makes a ton of your guys uncounterable for the only drawback of it being non-basic and not helping cast your other stuff as easily. The colorless thing really shouldn't be a problem as when you're mana is off you can always say wizard to cast quasali pridemage and lavamancer (if you run him). Given so many decks run FoW this is just a must card.
It's just an insane card in legacy as there are so many good humans, i can even think of stuff like using this to cast BoB, delver and snapcaster in some deck for example. Uncounterable bob can really be crucial in some matches.

Mav is so repetitious that it doesn't matter if they counter. It will just come back again and again.

Julian23
04-17-2012, 01:37 PM
I have to ask again: which (generic) counterspells are we talking about? Force of Will, ok. And what else?

Koby
04-17-2012, 01:50 PM
I have to ask again: which (generic) counterspells are we talking about? Force of Will, ok. And what else?

Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

Tombstalker
04-17-2012, 01:57 PM
I dont really see the downside to cavern in maverick other than vulnerability to wasteland. It adds colorless regardless and for almost half of mavericks spells it adds 1 of any color that cant be countered. Why wouldnt this replace canopy and/or other utility lands? Seems like a no brainer upgrade. Personally I dont look at FoW on knight and thalia as 2 for 1, its more like 2 or game loss.
Edit- protecting the other little bastards is just gravy but with mom can also be game ending.

Julian23
04-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

Exactly. There's a reason, Spell Snare and Force of Will are among the first cards hitting the bench in the Maverick matchup. Actually [CARDS]Daze[CARDS] is the only card that would be worth looking into since playing around it will cost a turn. On the other hand, decks playing Daze are usually a good matchup anyway and much more often lost to Wasteland rather than counterspells.

However, there's ONE thing it does really well: cast hatebears against combo. If you draw it in your opening seven.

I am ok with cutting a single Horizon Canopy for it although I feel I'd MUCH rather have Horizon Canopy in the mid-to-lategame than this. It's also worth noticing that it doesn't cast a lot of sideboard cards.

TheXile
04-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

That and Sword of Light and Shadow punishes them for countering creatures.

Kuma
04-17-2012, 02:18 PM
It never occurred to me that counter strategies were that much of a liability for Maverick. I've lost far more games to active Jace than to repeated counterspells. I don't think Maverick particularly cares for this land too much. It adds more constraints to the mana base rather than improve generic matchups that are bad.

I don't think it adds any meaningful constraints. Unless you have no other lands that make green mana, you can still cast Green Sun's Zenith with it. You can still hardcast equipment with it. You can't cast Swords to Plowshares with it, but you probably have another land that can.

We're basically comparing the following:

Things you can't do with Cavern of Souls:

- GSZ for 0
- Cast Swords to Plowshares
- Activate Scavenging Ooze
- Cast Qasali Pridemage (usually)
- Cast Elspeth if you have less than two lands/creatures that make white mana

vs.

- Casting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, Knights of the Reliquary, Ethersworn Cannonists, and (possibly) Loyal Retainers.

I don't think the constraints are meaningful. The benefits are nice, but not overwhelming. I don't see why running one Cavern of Souls makes the deck worse.

Fade
04-17-2012, 02:29 PM
I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this land. I tend to not care when my opponent is countering my creatures but having an uncounterable Mother of Runes and Loyal Retainers is kind of appealing. In some circumstances an uncounterable Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist against High Tide could come in very handy.

I wouldn't fault anyone for playing the land and I think you could run it over the Gaea's Cradle if you cut the stoneforge package, the Maze of Ith slot if you run one main, and perhaps a fetchland or the second Horizon Canopy.

bruizar
04-17-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't see why Cavern of Souls shouldn't be played over Wasteland. Use a singleton Wasteland or Dust Bowl to get rid of a Maze of Ith if you want, Cavern of Souls makes your deck MORE consistent in terms of resolving threats and casting spells / color-fixing. You aren't going to 'wastelock' UR Delver decks anyway since they operate on 2 lands, and Cavern is a much better card against blue control decks than wasteland is.

Julian23
04-17-2012, 03:50 PM
Over Wasteland? Madness! :eek:

Wasteland wins games. If you want to try this, do as follows:

-1 Horizon Canopy
-1 Forest (going down to just 1)
+1 New Land
+1 Green Fetchland

To me it doesn't seem worth it, but at least don't cut Wasteland.

Fade
04-17-2012, 03:50 PM
I don't see why Cavern of Souls shouldn't be played over Wasteland. Use a singleton Wasteland or Dust Bowl to get rid of a Maze of Ith if you want, Cavern of Souls makes your deck MORE consistent in terms of resolving threats and casting spells / color-fixing. You aren't going to 'wastelock' UR Delver decks anyway since they operate on 2 lands, and Cavern is a much better card against blue control decks than wasteland is.

Wasteland is much too important to cut for a land that might make your creatures uncounterable. First of all Wastelanding someone out of the game is a real thing. It happens all the time even if you don't have an active Knight and second burn is a REAL threat. Adding another nonbasic to the mana base that can't remove itself is essentially suicide versus a price of progress.

Marke
04-17-2012, 05:56 PM
Many people say the cavern isn't worth it because decks with counters are good matchups for us anyway but I don't think that's completely true.
Combo decks with counter protection will use those counters to stop our hatebears, this lets them resolve, quite crucial.
For tempo decks with counters those counters might not be the best against us but they will still use them and early at that. Someone with FoW in hand still has to use it most of the time so they will still try to counter your knight, thalia whatever. Drawing this in the opening hand vs blue is just great as you can make sure they can't make a tempo play against you on turn 2 or 3 most of the time.
It seems like a 2-of for me probably taking out the canopy and 1 other land. It practically fixes your mana most of the time and if really needed you can always name something else then human to cast your pridemage or whatever. The power of denying FoW on your knight and thalia is just huge and stopping daze and spell snare as well is just good too, especially daze as you often can't allow yourself to play around that.

Freggle
04-17-2012, 09:29 PM
Why not cut a Savanna?

It still produces G/W. ...and the deck can hit G off of Noble for GSZ.

bruizar
04-18-2012, 02:30 AM
Wasteland is much too important to cut for a land that might make your creatures uncounterable. First of all Wastelanding someone out of the game is a real thing. It happens all the time even if you don't have an active Knight and second burn is a REAL threat. Adding another nonbasic to the mana base that can't remove itself is essentially suicide versus a price of progress.

I think you could get away with a 3/3 split of Wasteland and Cavern of Souls. It being a non-basic is a non-argument since you shouldn't be swapping basic land for utility land anyway. You shouldn't forget that cavern actually FIXES your mana. If you can run Wasteland, I don't see why you can't run a land that makes mana of any color.

lyracian
04-18-2012, 02:33 AM
Why not cut a Savanna?

It still produces G/W. ...and the deck can hit G off of Noble for GSZ.
Assuming you choice Humans, then you do not have G for Scrub Ranger & Zenith, or white for StP. with a land. Creature die, a lot.

Dropping a Conopy is the best choice. You replace one non-basic with another. You trade the option to draw a card for not taking any damage when you use it and making 1/2 your non-lands card uncounterable.

lordofthepit
04-18-2012, 03:17 AM
Obviously, it makes no sense to cut Savannah, fetchlands, or Wastelands for the new Cavern. I would strongly argue that you don't cut basics either (see below). Some of the utility lands can be questioned. Not Karakas though; that allows us to win so many games we have no business being in. I wouldn't cut Gaea's Cradle or Maze of Ith for it either, although I currently run neither. Dryad Arbor is a must. So that leaves Horizon Canopy as a possible consideration.

I simply refuse to cut below 3 Forests and 1 Plains because I feel having basics are extremely important. Not only are they resilient to Wasteland and Blood Moon, but they are important in many other matchups besides that, ranging from Burn (Price of Progress), Nic Fit (Veteran Explorer), to Stoneblade (Path to Exile). They turn on Knight of the Reliquary and Scryb Ranger. Obviously, Caverns also gives you awkward situations where you can't cast the Swords to Plowshares in your hand, the Qasali Pridemage in your hand because you named Human, or activate the Ooze to exile a crucial card.

All of these drawbacks are significant, and based on my experience, I would lose far more games due to these cumulative vulnerabilities than I would gain from being able to force a creature through counter magic. It would be one thing if control decks only contained a counter wall and no removal, and if Cavern completely blanked their counterspells. But instead, they can simply save their Force of Will or other counter for another non-protected creature, for your GSZ, for the Choke you searched up with Enlightened Tutor, etc. Furthermore, it's the removal that we really have to watch out for. I've rarely been disappointed when I can force my opponent to 2-for-1 himself to answer my creature with a counterspell, especially since that leaves the creature in the graveyard for Ooze or Sword of Light and Shadow.

Cavern may very well belong in the Horizon Canopy slot, although that's because they serve different functions. I run Horizon Canopy not because it provides "utility", but because it reduces variance by serving as a mana source when I need it and as an extra card draw when I'm flooded. The utility that Cavern provides may be worth more than the reduced variance Canopy offers, but I only concede that because I'm unsure how to compare apples to oranges; on the other hand, Cavern is IMO weaker than all the utility lands that commonly see play in a G/W Maverick deck, including several which I opt not to run.

(Although I suppose having a green source without exposing yourself to Submerge is occasionally useful!)

Hencules
04-18-2012, 06:35 AM
Due to budget reasons, i play Birds of paradise (sad, i know). I also play stoneforge mystic. Would looking for a Elbrus, the Binding Blade make sense? If you can keep your BoP alive with mother, hitting with a flying Elbrus-wielding-Bop would hurt in a big way, wouldn't it?

Tao
04-18-2012, 06:47 AM
Ulvenwald Tracker G
Creature - Human Shaman
1{G}, {T}: Target creature you control fights another target creature.
1/1

This seems like a good GSZ target. Very cheap and as soon as you untap you can start gunning down their team with KotR, Ooze and Mother of Runes. Should be especially effective vs. Delvers, Confidant and Mother of Runes, but also good in general vs. creatures.

Fade
04-18-2012, 08:22 AM
I think you could get away with a 3/3 split of Wasteland and Cavern of Souls. It being a non-basic is a non-argument since you shouldn't be swapping basic land for utility land anyway. You shouldn't forget that cavern actually FIXES your mana. If you can run Wasteland, I don't see why you can't run a land that makes mana of any color.

It fixes your mana some of the time. The deck runs about 16 Humans and 22 lands. That leaves a good chunk of your cards that this land would be colorless for. As for the nonbasic land count, I'm referring to any deck with price of progress. In those matches you done have to worry about playing your wasteland as they can destroy themselves or get rid of another nonbasic. This is mostly a defense not to cut wastelands for this new land but perhaps a different nonbasic.

TheXile
04-18-2012, 08:37 AM
It fixes your mana some of the time. The deck runs about 16 Humans and 22 lands. That leaves a good chunk of your cards that this land would be colorless for. As for the nonbasic land count, I'm referring to any deck with price of progress. In those matches you done have to worry about playing your wasteland as they can destroy themselves or get rid of another nonbasic. This is mostly a defense not to cut wastelands for this new land but perhaps a different nonbasic.

We also need to factor in the probability of getting it when you actually want it...if you put 1 in your deck..you won't likely get it in your opening 7 +2 (when you might actually want it) very often, and the first couple turns are when you'd benefit from it most. After turn 4 or so..I see it being a lot less useful. I do think it's hilarious that SCG's is preselling this land at 25 bucks now...I also agree that there are going to be numerous times when you have this land in hand...and can't cast something because it only provides colored mana..sometimes.

lordofthepit
04-18-2012, 12:56 PM
Ulvenwald Tracker G
Creature - Human Shaman
1{G}, {T}: Target creature you control fights another target creature.
1/1

This seems like a good GSZ target. Very cheap and as soon as you untap you can start gunning down their team with KotR, Ooze and Mother of Runes. Should be especially effective vs. Delvers, Confidant and Mother of Runes, but also good in general vs. creatures.

I love this card. I think this has more potential in Maverick than any card spoiled so far.

jrw1985
04-18-2012, 01:32 PM
On using Cavern of Souls in Maverick: Making Humans uncounterable seems good, but you need to play fewer forests/fetches to do so. Cavern can't be sacked to Knight, bounced with Scryb Ranger, or used to activate Ooze. You can't cast GSZ for 0 T1 with it. You can't cast StP with it. These are all relatively minor by themselves, but considering Maverick already runs as many non-basics as it can Caverns will become cumbersome. So, it has definite downsides.

Is anyone out there goldfishing or playtesting a Cavern build?

jrw1985
04-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Ulvenwald Tracker G
Creature - Human Shaman
1{G}, {T}: Target creature you control fights another target creature.
1/1

This seems like a good GSZ target. Very cheap and as soon as you untap you can start gunning down their team with KotR, Ooze and Mother of Runes. Should be especially effective vs. Delvers, Confidant and Mother of Runes, but also good in general vs. creatures.

Once you have Mom + KotR aren't you usually just attacking anyway? Plus you already have access to better spot removal in Swords to Plowshares. Clearly Tracker will be awesome as a way to break the late game wide open if you're in a stalemate situation (which Maverick often is), but Maverick also has Equipment that allows it to do the same thing. The fact that Tracker is Green is clearly huge as it makes him a GSZ target. So he'll replace a piece of Equipment?

barrozo
04-18-2012, 03:47 PM
On using Cavern of Souls in Maverick: Making Humans uncounterable seems good, but you need to play fewer forests/fetches to do so. Cavern can't be sacked to Knight, bounced with Scryb Ranger, or used to activate Ooze. You can't cast GSZ for 0 T1 with it. You can't cast StP with it. These are all relatively minor by themselves, but considering Maverick already runs as many non-basics as it can Caverns will become cumbersome. So, it has definite downsides

These are all these downsides. And there is the only upside of using the Cavern, which is making the creatures uncounterable, which has never been a big deal (exception: blue-based combo countering a hatebear the turn before going off). IMHO, the benefit is very, very small. Horizon Canopy also has some downsides, but at least its upside (cycling+eventually pumping knights) is better.



Tao
Ulvenwald Tracker G
Creature - Human Shaman
1{G}, {T}: Target creature you control fights another target creature.
1/1

This seems like a good GSZ target. Very cheap and as soon as you untap you can start gunning down their team with KotR, Ooze and Mother of Runes. Should be especially effective vs. Delvers, Confidant and Mother of Runes, but also good in general vs. creatures.

This one has potential, although Jitte already does that much better... maybe test a 1-of to complement the equip and dodge artifact removal, don't know... I'm not that excited.

Srsly, I don't want to hate the new cards (and I'm not saying they're bad), but I don't think they improve the deck (or any specific matchup) that much.

CorpT
04-18-2012, 04:28 PM
Why not just run Arena if you want to have a creature fight another creature?

DragoFireheart
04-18-2012, 04:32 PM
Why not just run Arena if you want to have a creature fight another creature?

Arena is an awful card that requires you to tap four mana, can't make mana itself, and has narrow applications?

Koby
04-18-2012, 04:38 PM
<new fight dork> is an awful card that requires you to tap <some> mana, can't make mana itself, is vulnerable to removal and summoning sickness, and has narrow applications?

ftfy

CorpT
04-18-2012, 04:39 PM
ftfy

Which was basically my point and I think yours. IMO, neither is needed or good enough to play.

fallenphoenix
04-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Just to point that out: Mom + this Guy does only work against non-green creatures, since griving him pro:green disables the activated ability (illegal target etc...).
Since most of the guys you'd want to use this on are probably green, and the other ones are most likely small, Mom doesn't seem particularly combolicious with this guy.

lordofthepit
04-18-2012, 10:34 PM
You guys never wished that Grim Lavamancer were green so you could GSZ for creature removal? This is certainly slower and can't do damage to the face, but it's otherwise a reasonable approximation for most board states. I'm certainly going to try this out as a one-of.

Koby
04-19-2012, 12:31 AM
You guys never wished that Grim Lavamancer were green so you could GSZ for creature removal? This is certainly slower and can't do damage to the face, but it's otherwise a reasonable approximation for most board states. I'm certainly going to try this out as a one-of.

Alot of times I actually want to Zenith for Viridian Shaman, but almost never an ability like "G,T: Fight".

Eatatjoes
04-19-2012, 03:21 AM
Ended up getting 12th at SCG Phoenix with Maverick. Was trying to run the back to back top 8's on the weekend, but lost to Sherwin (rug delver) and the maverick mirror (went to game 3, but the 2 games i lost were the most lopsided games of the mirror i have ever played)

Round 1 Dredge 2-0
Round 2 UR delver 2-0
Round 3 Rug delver 0-2
Round 4 Gw Mav 1-2
Round 5 Esper stoneblade 2-0
Round 6 Gw Mav 2-0
Round 7 Rug delver 2-0 Feature Match
Round 8 Esper 2-0

The deck was sweet. Dont think i would change a thing in the main deck. Terravore was a house (nice lingering souls tokens) and scavenging ooze was insane in every matchup. I would probably cut a linvala out of the side, kinda wanted a fauna shaman over it, or another card for the control decks. I didnt miss stoneforge at all. Most of my matchups were aggressive decks, and stoneforge would have been to slow. And i got a few people out of nowhere with jitte, since they dont see it coming.

On the topic of the new land, that makes guys uncounterable, I dont think that card is needed at all. This deck is very consistent and threat dense. For the land to be good, you would have to run 3 or 4 of them, and it makes the manabase weak to wasteland. The only counterspells that are played atm are, Force (2 for 1 trades are fine with me) Daze (to easy to play around) Spell snare ( easy to play around as well) Alot of times they cant keep up spell snare, since we have green sun, and 3 drops, and when they tap out, you just jam 2 2 drops.

Koby, what were your other losses besides the mirror? And if you posted it somewhere else, i apologize.

majikal
04-19-2012, 03:28 AM
Alot of times I actually want to Zenith for Viridian Shaman, but almost never an ability like "G,T: Fight".
I've contemplated a Harmonic Sliver in the sideboard at times (or even maindeck). Especially since people are playing more Cursed Totem.

Mark Sun
04-19-2012, 01:40 PM
I've contemplated a Harmonic Sliver in the sideboard at times (or even maindeck). Especially since people are playing more Cursed Totem.

I agree here. I've seen my own share of Cursed Totem lately and I want that type of effect if possible. I also don't think a pseudo-Pridemage is a bad thing with all the Equipment flying around anyways.

Koby
04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Koby, what were your other losses besides the mirror? And if you posted it somewhere else, i apologize.

Here's a recount of my event:

Round 1 - Maverick (2-0) *Karakas does not infact, bounce Jitte
Round 2 - RUG Tempo (1-2) *Delver flip reveal Forked Bolt, delver flip reveal FoW, nice StP - bro!
Round 3 - B/R Removals (2-1) *Moons + Obliterators + Liliana
Round 4 - Esperblade (2-0) *crush
Round 5 - Dream Halls (1-2) *G1 = Dream Halls, G2 = 3 hate bears, G3 = Show & Tell into Dream Halls, I throw down Canonist, next turn Hardcast Progenitus via Ponder. *sigh*
Round 6 - Maverick (0-2) * 70 card mirror with same SB tech
DROP

KobeBryan
04-19-2012, 02:12 PM
Here's a recount of my event:

Round 1 - Maverick (2-0) *Karakas does not infact, bounce Jitte
Round 2 - RUG Tempo (1-2) *Delver flip reveal Forked Bolt, delver flip reveal FoW, nice StP - bro!
Round 3 - B/R Removals (2-1) *Moons + Obliterators + Liliana
Round 4 - Esperblade (2-0) *crush
Round 5 - Dream Halls (1-2) *G1 = Dream Halls, G2 = 3 hate bears, G3 = Show & Tell into Dream Halls, I throw down Canonist, next turn Hardcast Progenitus via Ponder. *sigh*
Round 6 - Maverick (0-2) * 70 card mirror with same SB tech
DROP

Tough beats man. There's always this weekend at mtgdeals.

Fade
04-19-2012, 02:23 PM
This is probably a bad suggestion but what do people think about Flickering Ward as an added way to protect Knights. The only reason I mention it is that you can make your Knight removal-proof and you can always bounce the ward back to your hand if they wrath your field.

It may also have some small applicable situations where you want to give one of their creatures protection from a specific color. Like in cephalid breakfast Giving an Illusionist protection from white seems okay.

Koby
04-19-2012, 02:42 PM
This is probably a bad suggestion but what do people think about Flickering Ward as an added way to protect Knights. The only reason I mention it is that you can make your Knight removal-proof and you can always bounce the ward back to your hand if they wrath your field.

It may also have some small applicable situations where you want to give one of their creatures protection from a specific color. Like in cephalid breakfast Giving an Illusionist protection from white seems okay.

I'd prefer to just play Lightning Greaves in place - at least I get KotR activations right away. Makes a resolved Mom that much more potent too.

paperwarrior
04-19-2012, 05:12 PM
I'm thinking of trying out Daybreak Ranger in Punishing Mav. Unflipped it kills Delver (the biggest problem card in RUG) and can gradually pick off Lingering Souls tokens, and flipped it does the work of Ulvenwald Tracker plus KotR in one neat little package. It shouldn't be too hard to flip him in the mirror, since the only instants either kill it anyway or are Aven Mindcensor. Has anyone else tested him?

Koby
04-19-2012, 05:26 PM
I haven't personally tested him yet; but I'm aware it exists. I'm unsure if it can even survive long enough to matter however.

maktus
04-19-2012, 08:29 PM
I haven't personally tested him yet; but I'm aware it exists. I'm unsure if it can even survive long enough to matter however.

i was watching your games in scglive and I saw you using stoneforge + thalia, do you liked this combination? what equipments you used?

Koby
04-19-2012, 08:58 PM
i was watching your games in scglive and I saw you using stoneforge + thalia, do you liked this combination? what equipments you used?

Here's the list I ran:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Terravore
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light & Shadow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gut Shot
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
2 Choke
1 Oblivion Ring

Spell Pierce wasn't used enough during the day, since I didn't run against Burn. I'm thinking I'll cut it for more dedicated combo hate +1 Canonist and possibly 2 Leyline of Sanctity. This would allow me to cut the Tropical and go back down to 21 land + Dryad Arbor as I've been playing forever now. The extra slot in the maindeck will probably switch to Aven Mindcensor(s). Elspeth still doesn't get along well with Thalia, and the extra flying creatures are better to fight Delvers. Mindcensor also has some good uses vs combo & the mirror, so it's much better than Elspeth right now.

Stoneforge Mystic was added back in after I was disappointed by needing to draw Jitte the hard ways. Playing with two is fine, gives me the right tool at the right time, and allows me to play SoLS too, which is still good.

Keep in mind this is tailored to my metagame, and not every metagame is the same. There's about 5-8 flex slots in the deck - use them appropriately.

Avatar of Light
04-19-2012, 09:19 PM
List

You're missing a card (there are only 59 cards listed). Teeg is absent from your list...

Koby
04-19-2012, 09:39 PM
You're missing a card (there are only 59 cards listed). Teeg is absent from your list...

That he is.

Hencules
04-20-2012, 12:29 PM
List.

Just wondering: why do you play maze of ith in the side? He seems so awesome maindeck.

Koby
04-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Just wondering: why do you play maze of ith in the side? He seems so awesome maindeck.



Keep in mind this is tailored to my metagame, and not every metagame is the same. There's about 5-8 flex slots in the deck - use them appropriately.

Notice I'm from Los Angeles? Combo-central over here.
Case in point:
Sample metagame #1 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6922)
Sample metagame #2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23370-Los-Angeles-CA-Sunday-April-15-2012-Knight-Ware-Inc.-Tundras-FOW-s-...-20&p=635368&viewfull=1#post635368)

Hencules
04-20-2012, 12:49 PM
Notice I'm from Los Angeles? Combo-central over here.
Case in point:
Sample metagame #1 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6922)
Sample metagame #2 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23370-Los-Angeles-CA-Sunday-April-15-2012-Knight-Ware-Inc.-Tundras-FOW-s-...-20&p=635368&viewfull=1#post635368)

Thanks, it makes sense;). I'm in a way more aggro minded meta, and actually have to deal with nic fit. They rip me up, but wastes+ooze+maze help a lot:smile:.

Fade
04-20-2012, 12:55 PM
Thanks, it makes sense;). I'm in a way more aggro minded meta, and actually have to deal with nic fit. They rip me up, but wastes+ooze+maze help a lot:smile:.

I have a player who plays Nic Fit in my area but it hasn't really been too much of a problem. He plays straight GB. What threats besides deed are the Nic Fit decks playing in your meta?

sdematt
04-20-2012, 12:57 PM
Deed, Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, Massacre, etc.

-Matt

Fade
04-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Deed, Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, Massacre, etc.

-Matt

Thanks. It looks like his list is out dated then. I'm pretty sure he only has perish afterboard.

maktus
04-20-2012, 01:36 PM
I have a player who plays Nic Fit in my area but it hasn't really been too much of a problem. He plays straight GB. What threats besides deed are the Nic Fit decks playing in your meta?

What's your strategy? Do you use stp against explorers or hold for the big guys? do you have something in sb that makes the difference?

Fade
04-20-2012, 04:17 PM
What's your strategy? Do you use stp against explorers or hold for the big guys? do you have something in sb that makes the difference?

Fetch all your non-basics first. They don't play wasteland and if they get Explorer off then you still have some basics to grab. Save swords for the bigger problems instead of the explorer unless you can tell they are stuck on mana. Mother of Runes is amazing like always and they literally can not deal with an Elspeth making soldier tokens. Don't over commit to the board. If you already have a Knight on the field then don't play another unless you are falling behind. That way if they deed you can gain a board presence again.

Malakai
04-20-2012, 04:55 PM
Don't forget that if you plan to let an explorer die--which you can't really stop from happening--you can safely sideboard out a few lands, thus greatly increasing your threat density. I'd also save my StPs for Titans. Don't over-extend into a Pernicious Deed.

Koby
04-20-2012, 04:59 PM
Don't forget that if you plan to let an explorer die--which you can't really stop from happening--you can safely sideboard out a few lands, thus greatly increasing your threat density. I'd also save my StPs for Titans. Don't over-extend into a Pernicious Deed.

I could agree with 1-2 Wastelands. Nothing else can really come out with hurting the color-base consistency to develop normally.

Asthereal
04-20-2012, 05:50 PM
Last sunday I played at a team tournament (3 vs. 3, randomly assigned).
I ran the following list:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore /27

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow /13

4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland /20

Side:
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Entlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Engineered Explosives /15

Round 1 vs. Bu Recurring Zombies combo thing.
Game 1 he opened with Carrion Feeder. I read it, and thought 'wtf?'.
I proceeded to kill him with Knights carrying swords and stuff.
I hadn't seen his combo, or anything dangerous, really, so I just sided in two Paths.
Game 2 he also didn't do much (I wasted his blue source and that was it) so he died again quickly. Afterwards he showed what his deck could do. Very cute, but I would never play it in a tournament. My teammates also won, so off to a good start.

Round 2 vs. ANT.
Game 1 he wins the toss, cantrips some and kills me before I can find Thalia.
Game 2 I mull to a six with two hatebears. One gets killed, the other gets me there.
Game 3 I again mull to a six with two hatebears. He thoughtseizes Thalia away. GSZ into Teeg lands. In turn 3 after time was called he goes Path Teeg, DRit, Infernal-show DRit, DRit, Infernal-show DRit, DRit, CRit, Petal, Grim Tutor for Tendrils for 20 where I had exactly 20 life and lethal on the table. Nice play sir. Team lost, because Tom failed to beat Doomsday with RUG Tempo. Shit happens.

Round 3 vs. Maverick (Mirror!)
Game 1 he starts and mulls to 6. We kill eachothers accellerant guy, we both get an equipment (he a SoLaS, I a Jitte - wanted to kill Mothers!). We proceed to destroy eachothers equipment with Pridemages and stuff, but I got quite some value out of Scryb Ranger, so I had more gass and won the first game.
Game 2 he mulled to six again, and put me under quite some pressure. I defend like a tiger and the board position is equal when we run out of time.
Turned out he sided in Dueling grounds. Really?? I almost never attack with morethan one guy in the mirror. How about you guys? :tongue:
Team also won, so team at 2-1 and still in the race for top-4.

Round 4 vs. Maverick (again that f'ing mirror)
Game 1 AGAIN he starts (damned die rolls). He starts rather slowly, but it turns out he is slowrolling Mindcensor. He doesn't get to use it while messing up one of my plays, but it stops me from playing half my hand. It takes me quite some time to kill it, and when I do, he afterwards drops two Mothers that I really cannot kill. I go down without being able to do anything about it.
Game 2 I play way too quickly, and make some errors, but even if I had played perfectly I would never win in time. He just stalls it out professionally.
Team messes up as well, despite me saying repeatedly I cannot win anymore, so I could better help our combo player calculate (deliberation was allowed within teams).
Still the team fucks up and we go 2-2 and are eliminated for top-4. We decide to not drop, and just play for fun.

Round 5 vs. Affinity.
Game 1 I keep a slow hand that should look good versus Stoneblade and such, but he just drops his entire ahdn turn 1 and I never recover.
Game 2 I hate myself for not including either Serenity or Null Rod, and I get killed quickly again. Chanceless matchup if they have a quick hand AND we fail to include proper hate. But seriously, who plays Affinity still? :tongue:

Record: 2-3. Awful day. Mindcensor just wins the mirror. Not having it while he did have it was a BIG issue. Thalia never hit the table, so no idea how good he is compared to the Mindcensor. Mirror tech Engineered Explosives was awkward. Gut Shot is better. Despite having 167 hate bears ANT is still rather chanceless if they play correctly.

maktus
04-20-2012, 06:16 PM
I could agree with 1-2 Wastelands. Nothing else can really come out with hurting the color-base consistency to develop normally.

did you played against Chris Higashi in Phoenix?

Koby
04-20-2012, 06:37 PM
did you played against Chris Higashi in Phoenix?

I did not.

Fade
04-23-2012, 05:19 PM
I decided to post my sideboard plans for the new list I have been running. This is to help people who are new to Maverick get a feel on how to sideboard, as in my community there has been four new players playing the deck and I wanted to give them some advice. My main deck has not changed since the last time I posted but the sideboard has changed a bit. Feel free to comment if you don't agree with some of the plans or if you board a completely different way.

Sideboard (15):
3 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Elesh Norn, the Grand Cenobite
1 Viridian Shaman

SIDEBOARD PLANS:

Maverick (5):
Out: -2 Thalia, -1 Teeg, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Iona, -1 Wasteland
In: +1 Norn, +1 Viridian Shaman, +1 Maze, +2 Path, +1 Bog

RUG Delver (9):
Out: -2 Pridemage, -1 Teeg, -1 Elspeth, -1 Iona, -1 Loyal, -3 Fauna
In: +2 Path, +1 Maze, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Bog

UWx Stoneblade (7):
Out: -2 Noble Hierarch, -1 Loyal, -1 Iona, -2 Swords, -1 Fauna
In: +1 Oblivion Ring, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Viridian Shaman

Storm (TES) (5):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Terravore
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction

Storm (ANT) (8):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -1 Terravore, -1 Scryb Ranger, -3 Mother of Runes
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction, +3 Choke

High Tide (9-10):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -4 Swords, -1 Terravore, -1 Mother (Candle Version Only)
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction, +3 Choke, +1 Shaman (Candle Version Only)

Pox (4-6):
Out: -4 Swords, -1 Mindcensor (Abyss Version Only), -1 Mother (Abyss Version Only)
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Shaman, +2 Canonist (Abyss Version Only)

Nic Fit (6):
Out: -1 Wasteland, -2 Pridemage, -2 Thalia, -1 Scryb Ranger
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Oblivion Ring +2 Path, +1 Maze

Hive Mind (10):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Scryb Ranger, -4 Mother of Runes, -4 Swords
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Maze

Sneak and Show (8):
Out: -4 Swords, -4 Mother of Runes
In: +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian, +3 Choke, +1 Maze, +2 Extraction

Dredge (9):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Mindcensor, -2 Pridemage, -4 Mother of Runes
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Crypt, +1 Bog, +2 Canonist, +1 Norn, +2 Path

Reanimator (7):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Pridemage, -2 Jitte, -2 Mother of Runes
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Bog, +1 Crypt, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Maze, +1 Norn

Burn (5):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Mindcensor, -2 Pridemage, -1 Scryb Ranger
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Maze, +2 Path

Goblins (6):
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -1 Mindcensor, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Elspeth
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian Shaman

Elves (5):
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -2 Pridemage
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring

Koby
04-23-2012, 05:51 PM
Sideboard (15):
3 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Elesh Norn, the Grand Cenobite
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver

SIDEBOARD PLANS:

Maverick (5):
Out: -2 Thalia, -1 Teeg, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Iona, -1 Wasteland, -1 Mindcensor
In: +1 Norn, +1 Viridian Shaman, +1 Maze, +2 Path, +1 Bog

RUG Delver (9):
Out: -2 Pridemage, -1 Teeg, -1 Elspeth, -1 Iona, -1 Loyal, -3 Fauna
In: +2 Path, +1 Maze, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Bog

UWx Stoneblade (7):
Out: -2 Noble Hierarch, -1 Loyal, -1 Iona, -3 Swords, -1 Fauna
In: +1 Oblivion Ring, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Viridian Shaman, +1 Bog (need to replace mana sources)

Storm (TES) (5):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Terravore
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction

Storm (ANT) (8):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -1 Terravore, -1 Scryb Ranger, -3 Mother of Runes
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction, +3 Choke

High Tide (9-10):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -4 Swords, -1 Terravore, -1 Mother (Candle Version Only)
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Bog, +2 Extraction, +3 Choke, +1 Shaman (Candle Version Only)

Pox (4-6):
Out: -4 Swords, -1 Mindcensor (Abyss Version Only), -1 Mother (Abyss Version Only)
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Shaman, +2 Canonist (Abyss Version Only)

Nic Fit (6):
Out: -1 Wasteland, -2 Pridemage, -2 Thalia, -1 Scryb Ranger
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Oblivion Ring +2 Path, +1 Maze

Hive Mind (10):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Scryb Ranger, -4 Mother of Runes, -4 Swords
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian, +3 Choke, +2 Extraction, +1 Maze

Sneak and Show (8):
Out: -4 Swords, -4 Mother of Runes
In: +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian, +3 Choke, +1 Maze, +2 Extraction

Dredge (9):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Mindcensor, -2 Pridemage, -4 Mother of Runes
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Crypt, +1 Bog, +2 Canonist, +1 Norn, +2 Path

Reanimator (7):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Pridemage, -2 Jitte, -2 Mother of Runes, -1 Teeg, -1 ???
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Bog, +1 Crypt, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Maze, +1 Norn

Burn (5):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Mindcensor, -2 Pridemage, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Terravore, -1 Teeg
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Maze, +2 Path

Goblins (6): - if black splash, avoid Green creatures to negate Perish
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -1 Mindcensor, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Elspeth -1 Teeg
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian Shaman, +2 Canonist

Elves (5):
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -2 Pridemage, -1 Teeg, -1 Terravore
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring, +2 Canonist

I've striked/bolded my plan. Did you mean this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-DTB-GW-x-Maverick&p=633598&viewfull=1#post633598)?

Fade
04-23-2012, 06:02 PM
I've striked/bolded my plan. Did you mean this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-DTB-GW-x-Maverick&p=633598&viewfull=1#post633598)?

Yes that's the list and it's been performing very well for me right now. I tried one last time to completely cut Thalia in place for Stoneforge Mystic during my local legacy on Saturday but only having an Aven Mindcensor and Teeg against combo mainboard was hurting it too much.


Reanimator (7):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -2 Jitte, -2 Mother of Runes, -1 Teeg, -1
In: +2 Extraction, +1 Bog, +1 Crypt, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Maze, +1 Norn

Burn (5):
Out: -1 Elspeth, -1 Mindcensor, -2 Pridemage, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Terravore, -1 Teeg
In: +2 Canonist, +1 Maze, +2 Path

Goblins (6): - if black splash, avoid Green creatures to negate Perish
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -1 Mindcensor, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Elspeth -1 Teeg
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Viridian Shaman, +2 Canonist

Elves (5):
Out: -1 Iona, -2 Thalia, -2 Pridemage, -1 Teeg, -1 Terravore
In: +1 Norn, +2 Path, +1 Maze, +1 Oblivion Ring, +2 Canonist

Reanimator: I forgot about Animate Dead. Yes Pridemages should stay in.

Burn: Why would you keep in Pridemages here? Is it to destroy Sulfuric Vortex that they board in?

Goblins: Point taken the player in my local plays RG Goblins. I forgot about the RB version.

Evles: I knew I forgot something there

Koby
04-23-2012, 06:26 PM
Reanimator: I forgot about Animate Dead. Yes Pridemages should stay in.

Burn: Why would you keep in Pridemages here? Is it to destroy Sulfuric Vortex that they board in?

Goblins: Point taken the player in my local plays RG Goblins. I forgot about the RB version.

Evles: I knew I forgot something there

Burn - yep, unless you play COP Red, then you need a way not to die to Vortex, and Pridemage is a faster clock than most of the other "dumb beaters". Exalted is surprisingly relevant here. Same with Reanimator - Animate Dead matters here too, even if they do board it out for Show & Tell.

Viridia
04-24-2012, 08:40 AM
So i'm thinking about picking up Maverick, i'll probably try and splash blue for Brainstorms and some Spell Pierces sideboard (lots of combo and decks relying on non creature spells here) but i'm mostly worried about the impact of the new Terminus on the deck.
What are your opinions on Terminus? Will it really hurt the deck, or is it easily played around?

Fade
04-24-2012, 09:23 AM
So i'm thinking about picking up Maverick, i'll probably try and splash blue for Brainstorms and some Spell Pierces sideboard (lots of combo and decks relying on non creature spells here) but i'm mostly worried about the impact of the new Terminus on the deck.
What are your opinions on Terminus? Will it really hurt the deck, or is it easily played around?

It really depends on the consistency of the UW control decks that are running it. Running so many cards to help setup the time walk and terminus miracles are probably going to dilute their threat density and their deck might just become some durdle-fest that doesn't really do anything.

After the first few turns of the game you should know whether they are playing control or not. If they are then throw down a decent board position that puts a clock on them. They will either have to answer them and waste a Terminus/Wrath of God or they will die. It's much like playing around virtue's ruin, nature's ruin, perish, and massacre. I don't think the deck is just going to fold to Terminus, but it is yet to be determined.

Note: It might be worth playing a Gavony Township so after they terminus we can play a few 2/2 hatebears and pump them each turn after that so the deck can recover a bit quicker.

DrHealex
04-24-2012, 10:01 AM
So i'm thinking about picking up Maverick, i'll probably try and splash blue for Brainstorms and some Spell Pierces sideboard (lots of combo and decks relying on non creature spells here) but i'm mostly worried about the impact of the new Terminus on the deck.
What are your opinions on Terminus? Will it really hurt the deck, or is it easily played around?

Julian23
04-24-2012, 10:18 AM
Gaddock Teeg is still the most important card against control. Both pre and post sideboard. I strongly recommend 1 in the maindeck.

Viridia
04-24-2012, 12:29 PM
Is playing pure GW most likely still better then splashing for brainstorms, sideboard options, or possibly more blue cards? (Just trying to figure out what i should be picking up exactly)

Koby
04-24-2012, 12:33 PM
Is playing pure GW most likely still better then splashing for brainstorms, sideboard options, or possibly more blue cards? (Just trying to figure out what i should be picking up exactly)

It's certainly cheaper (less duals required to play), and objectively stronger in an unknown field. Splashing for a 3rd color needs to have good justification - :r: for more removal; :u: for specific creatures and/or countermagic and/or Jace and/or Brainstorm; etc. I don't think the :b: splash is worth it in this shell, Junk is a better fit for cards black has to offer.

:g::w: Maverick is hard enough to learn optimally. I would suggest to begin with it and see if that's what you want to play.

On a side note, I'm taking a break from Maverick for a while. My local metagame isn't friendly to fair creature decks ( = combo decks everywhere)

DrHealex
04-24-2012, 02:11 PM
On a side note, I'm taking a break from Maverick for a while. My local metagame isn't friendly to fair creature decks ( = combo decks everywhere)

Serves you right. It is YOUR FAULT that control has been surpressed thus allowing combo to run rampant after all :p

I ran GW maverick over my punishing maverick for the first time last weekend. I ran Kobys last posted 58 (maze instead of mindcensor, 1 bop over 4th noble) GW md list. While I did end up winning a SCQ-IQ, and a seperate tourney for a dual land, terravore was underwhelming when I saw him.

MY SB:
2 Choke, 2 Path of E, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 E-Cannonist, 1 P-Metamorph, 1 Worship (won me a few), 1 O-Ring, 1 U-Jitte, 1 B-Bog, 1 Wheel of S

Fade
04-24-2012, 02:52 PM
Serves you right. It is YOUR FAULT that control has been surpressed thus allowing combo to run rampant after all :p

I ran GW maverick over my punishing maverick for the first time last weekend. I ran Kobys last posted 58 (maze instead of mindcensor, 1 bop over 4th noble) GW md list. While I did end up winning a SCQ-IQ, and a seperate tourney for a dual land, terravore was underwhelming when I saw him.

MY SB:
2 Choke, 2 Path of E, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 E-Cannonist, 1 P-Metamorph, 1 Worship (won me a few), 1 O-Ring, 1 U-Jitte, 1 B-Bog, 1 Wheel of S

I tried worship a couple of times. I normally found it to come out a few turns too late or the match where I boarded it in ended up doing nothing because I tried too hard for it to be good. When do you board it in and do you thing it deserves a spot in the sideboard or just for specific meta games?

DrHealex
04-24-2012, 03:18 PM
I tried worship a couple of times. I normally found it to come out a few turns too late or the match where I boarded it in ended up doing nothing because I tried too hard for it to be good. When do you board it in and do you thing it deserves a spot in the sideboard or just for specific meta games?

YARG! CURSED PHONE KEEPS EATING HALF MY POSTS! Oh well, I'll fix them later.

I always feel I need something for burn, and worship has the widest range of applications. But yes, i do feel like I am "trying to hard" to make it work sometimes. I throw them in vs decks that likely have no answers for it AND i have more than enough bad cards to come out.. Like burn, dredge, affinity, goblins, merfolk, or belcher. It is undoubtedly the weakest card in my SB though.

mini1337s
04-24-2012, 04:22 PM
On a side note, I'm taking a break from Maverick for a while.
But... but... those Beta Savannahs...

angel882
04-25-2012, 02:53 AM
YARG! CURSED PHONE KEEPS EATING HALF MY POSTS! Oh well, I'll fix them later.

I always feel I need something for burn, and worship has the widest range of applications. But yes, i do feel like I am "trying to hard" to make it work sometimes. I throw them in vs decks that likely have no answers for it AND i have more than enough bad cards to come out.. Like burn, dredge, affinity, goblins, merfolk, or belcher. It is undoubtedly the weakest card in my SB though.

For me Worship has been great. It won me a game against Dredge when my opp already had made some zombies. It can suprise and steal some easy wins.

lavafrogg
04-25-2012, 03:17 AM
What are you switching to koby? I'll have to follow that thread now:p

Asthereal
04-25-2012, 04:29 AM
He's gonna pick up Doomsday now.
Good luck! :wink:

DrHealex
04-25-2012, 10:33 AM
Has anyone tried running a 1 of Fauna Shaman, then running 1 md aven mindcensor and 1 sb Linvala? OR is it just too slow?

Speaking of speed, has anyone tried running ESG/C-Mox/Lotus-P/Mox-D? It often feels like being able to drop a turn 1 hatebear would make all the difference vs combo.

Asthereal
04-25-2012, 10:43 AM
Linvala is a decent mirrortech. Fauna Shaman combined with Loyal Retainers and a Elesh-Norn or Iona is already pretty normal. I wouldn't play it, but it does have its upsides.

Playing additional mana accelleration is not that great. It might help you against combo, but in all other matchups the card disadvantage is killing. Maverick is a pretty controllish deck, don't forget that. If you need speed versus combo, why not try four Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard? Combined with a number of hatebears, you should look pretty good against combo.

DrHealex
04-25-2012, 11:48 AM
Linvala is decent mirrortech. Fauna Shaman combined with Loyal Retainers and a Elesh-Norn or Iona is already pretty normal. I wouldn't play it, but it does have its upsides..

Linvala is more than decent, but not so as an untutorable one of. I figure in the mirror there would be more than enough time to get linvala the long way if necessary gsz > fs> linvala ( or moms / beaters / hatebear / etc).

I too wouldn't play the retainers/elesh package since it requires at least 5 slots, which is ALOT.

HMMMM.... I think I may have sold myself on the idea.

Fade
04-25-2012, 12:40 PM
Linvala is more than decent, but not so as an untutorable one of. I figure in the mirror there would be more than enough time to get linvala the long way if necessary gsz > fs> linvala ( or moms / beaters / hatebear / etc).

I too wouldn't play the retainers/elesh package since it requires at least 5 slots, which is ALOT.

HMMMM.... I think I may have sold myself on the idea.

I know someone who plays a 1 of fauna shaman and as far as I can tell it's fine. I on the other hand, am a greedy person so I run the Loyal Retainers package.