[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[1mpulse]

Hey Man! I followed some of the action online. Congrats on your top 8 finish! I just wanted to ask you a few questions:

Thanks!


How was Thrun? Do you think elspeth would have served better in that slot?

Thrun all day, not even close. I've never been a fan of Planeswalkers in my GW deck.

Thrun is uncountable, Elspeth is not. You can GSZ for Thrun, Elspeth you cannot. Hexproof is fantastic, making Thrun a great place to put your equipment safely. Additionally, don't play Planeswalkers if you're playing Thalia and Teeg.


Do you think sword of body and mind(protection) or feast or famine(untap) could be more practicle then fire and ice?

I've never played Feast and Famine. This is mainly because drawing a card most of the time is better than making your opponent discard a card of their choice. Also, you don't need to untap your lands, you don't need to overextend (nor should you against certain decks). The protection from green isn't enough reason warrant it either.

I don't like Body and Mind either. Milling really is terrible. What makes Fire and Ice way better over Feast and Famine as well as Body and Mind, is that both it's abilities are great, instead of subpar.

I'd play another Jitte before I played Feast and Famine, Body and Mind, or Batterskull.


Did you like stoneforge over the two fauna shaman that people are using instead in that slot?

Yes, I like Stoneforge Mystic, I've been playing it ever since it was printed. Always Jitte, SoFI, and SoLS. This is the lowest number I've ever run, and it had to be that way because this was the first big event I wanted to play Thalia (as I expected to see more Reanimator and Sneak and Show).

But to get back on track, no, I don't want to play Fauna Shaman. Fauna Shaman essentially has to meet a few requirements to be even considered good. 1) It has to untap. 2) You have to have a creature in hand, one you wouldn't mind pitching. 3) You're probably playing a bunch of one of's like Linvala. Fauna Shaman is way too situational. I rather just go get a Jitte and go to town.


What are your thoughts of a one of sylvan safe keeper?

I tried him when I first switched over from Vial. Didn't like him, taxed the land base. Sometimes I wouldn't even sac a land to protect a creature because I would need lands to keep playing the game. Mother is better, and there really are enough 1/1's in the deck.


Was Cradle necessary?

This was my second tournament ever playing Cradle, and for a couple reasons. The first being I hadn't owned a foil one before. :P

Second, like I said, this is the first time I've actually wanted to play with Thalia in the main. Thalia taxes you the deck, so having a way to make up for that is nice. I would definitely say if you play Thalia's main, you want a Cradle. If not, then probably not, as I wasn't playing it before and was doing great, and Cradle is sometimes awkward.


Did you feel having a singleton Aven Mindcensor would have helped main?

Nope. I would have had no way to get to a one-of Mindcensor. I also rarely even 'get someone' with a fetch land. I just use them against combo.


Finally, what changes (if any) would you have made if you could play in the tournament again?


I'll probably run this, or something pretty close to this in Detroit this weekend.

The main thing I'd consider is whether I'd want Thalia's in the main, or not. I lost my first game in top 8 due to Thalia taxing me against Goblins. Other times I didn't lose, but I wasn't able to do what I wanted to with my GSZ's.

[AlmostGrown]

Please let us know how you do in Detroit, win or lose!

[1mpulse]

Sure thing!

Also, forgot to mention the Revokers.

I don't know if those guys will be staying for Detroit. They were there for Sneak and Show, but there might be something better. They also would have been pretty good had I made it to Elves. Other than that, there isn't really any other high profile decks to board them in against.

Anyone think they have a better answer that has more applications against Sneak and Show other than Revoker?

[Koby]

Anyone think they have a better answer that has more applications against Sneak and Show other than Revoker?

Thornscape Apprentice, like. For reals.

[1mpulse]

Thornscape Apprentice, like. For reals.

Hmm. That's a guy. Don't know if it has broader applications, but he might be worth a slot.

Edit: Dies to Pryoclasm though, just like everything else. :/

[bartmanqc]

You might want to try Gilded drake...

[1mpulse]

You might want to try Gilded drake...

Gilded Drake is not reasonable for Maverick.

It doesn't do anything against Sneak Attack.
Also hard to cast and resolve.
Also won't be useful against anything else but Reanimator, and even there it is poor.

[Koby]

Hmm. That's a guy. Don't know if it has broader applications, but he might be worth a slot.

Edit: Dies to Pryoclasm though, just like everything else. :/

Well the application is more for Fat-cheaty-face-monsters.dec like Reanimator and Sneak Show. Neither of which really utilize sweepers. Against the former, I would suggest at min 3x Purify the Grave. Against the latter... well...

Lunch break.

[1mpulse]

Well the application is more for Fat-cheaty-face-monsters.dec like Reanimator and Sneak Show. Neither of which really utilize sweepers. Against the former, I would suggest at min 3x Purify the Grave. Against the latter... well...

Lunch break.

Sneak and Show has the capability to run sweepers, and should be. While the lists I have seen that do, run Firespout, it really should just be Pryoclasm.

I'm not worried about Reanimator, I have Macabre's for them.

My philosophy is just that I want my sideboard cards to be to be as multi purpose as possible, so I can round out all my matchups.

Revoker got the nod because it can be boarded in against Elves, decks with LED, ect.

Thornscape Apprentice was exactly along the lines of stuff I was looking for though, off the beaten path and such.

[Humphrey]

I think Surgical Extraction is the best manaless GY Hate available, since it also useful against Stormcombo or RUG

[.Ix]

Congrats on the top8, 1mpulse!

I'm wondering, though, what's the second Dryad Arbor for? I already get my singleton in the opening hand too often.

[litenkatt]

Sigarda, Host of Herons

Why isn't this card played in Maverick? She's a boss, really. I play her as 1-off and has been doing great. You can play her turn 3 with GSZ if you run the cradle too which is huge..

[flounce]

I think Surgical Extraction is the best manaless GY Hate available, since it also useful against Stormcombo or RUG

Is Faerie Macabre better, as its uncounterable?

[M@verick]

Each card has his advantatges:

Faery macabre is much better agaisnt reanimator. But, i think S.E. is useful against more pairings. Plaing Vs storm combo, sometimes you can extirpate infernal tutor winning so easy. Is very good also when your opponent plays agroloam, and i would play 2 or 3 agaisnt UW miracle (is very nice removing all swords and playing a gaddock)

[1mpulse]

Congrats on the top8, 1mpulse!

I'm wondering, though, what's the second Dryad Arbor for? I already get my singleton in the opening hand too often.

Hey, Thanks!

The second Dryad does a couple of things:

*Lets you use GSZ as Rampant Growth
*If you leave a fetchland up, you can fetch Arbor after sweepers and equip to a equipment for a blowout
*Surprise blocker
*If you do draw one, you can still GSZ for the second one

I tried it out after I started with GSZ, and never went back.



I think Surgical Extraction is the best manaless GY Hate available, since it also useful against Stormcombo or RUG

I couldn't disagree more.

As flounce notes it's uncounterable. That's a pretty big deal against Reanimator, as if they have the turn 2 Reanimate, not only does your Surgical get Forced, but Dazed as well.

Faerie Macabre also gets rid of two things. What if the Dredge player goes: Turn one Faithless looting, discarding Troll and Imp. Play LED. You're dead. Surgical isn't going to get both those things. Reanimator, turn 1 Careful Study, discard two guys. Turn two Exhume, you're dead.

The only way to stop Macabre is to needle her, which slows your opponent down enough to the point that their dead, or you've had enough time to Pridemage, or just get an Ooze down. Or you could have never had it in your hand at all! They'll never know til it's too late.

Additionally, if you run SoLS like I do, you get to keep buying back your Macabre. Your opponent will not be amused.

As for boarding in Surgical against RUG or Storm... you shouldn't be doing that. It's the classic, board in Surgical against everything. Don't delude your deck.

I will agree that Surgical is way better against Aggro Loam though. That said, I've played against Aggro Loam twice in the past 2 years (in America). Reanimator and Dredge, a helluva lot more.

[Esper3k]

Faerie is also probably better for those builds that run Fauna Shaman.

[Koby]

Faerie is also probably better for those builds that run Fauna Shaman.

Part of the trouble with Faerie Macabre is that you need at minimum 3 to make it effective. In a metagame expecting Reanimator to be the top dog, that's a good idea however. I concur with min 3 Macabre in Maverick SB right now. I'm retooling the SB right now, so don't ask what it looks like. Do some homework yourselves :P

[Esper3k]

Part of the trouble with Faerie Macabre is that you need at minimum 3 to make it effective. In a metagame expecting Reanimator to be the top dog, that's a good idea however. I concur with min 3 Macabre in Maverick SB right now. I'm retooling the SB right now, so don't ask what it looks like. Do some homework yourselves :P

I also think that Fauna Shaman is too slow / unreliable as well in the Dredge / Reanimator matchup.

Personally, I've been still happy with 2 Tormod's Crypts in a 2 eTutor board. I think it's stronger against Dredge since you wipe their board. Against Reanimator, it's probably a little weaker due to stuff being counterable, but when you're on the play, it's also unlikely you'll get them discarded out of your hand as well.

On top of that, in the eTutor board, you of course essentially get more virtual copies of the card instead of having to play as many Faeries.

[1mpulse]

I also think that Fauna Shaman is too slow / unreliable as well in the Dredge / Reanimator matchup.

Personally, I've been still happy with 2 Tormod's Crypts in a 2 eTutor board. I think it's stronger against Dredge since you wipe their board. Against Reanimator, it's probably a little weaker due to stuff being counterable, but when you're on the play, it's also unlikely you'll get them discarded out of your hand as well.

On top of that, in the eTutor board, you of course essentially get more virtual copies of the card instead of having to play as many Faeries.


I've never been a fan of Enlightened Tutor in GW, card disadvantage and all. But, to each is his or her own.

Crypt would be second choice for graveyard hate.

[Esper3k]

I've never been a fan of Enlightened Tutor in GW, card disadvantage and all. But, to each is his or her own.

Crypt would be second choice for graveyard hate.

To me, eTutor has never been for the matchups where you need card advantage, but for the matchups where you have to quickly find an answer or die, ie: combo.

[1mpulse]

To me, eTutor has never been for the matchups where you need card advantage, but for the matchups where you have to quickly find an answer or die, ie: combo.

I just run more bears and stuff.

[Koby]

If any of you are playing with Loyal Retainers...Why are you not playing Griselbrand?

[Esper3k]

I just run more bears and stuff.

In lists that run 3x Thalia, 1x Teeg, 2x Scavenging Ooze, how many more hate bears for combo can you feasibly run?

eTutor gives you speed on top of flexibility with the drawback of card disadvantage, but card advantage isn't how we beat combo anyways.

[Koby]

I just run more bears and stuff.

So.. what do you against a turn 1 Thoughtseize on the when you're on the play?

[Esper3k]

Also, I like the eTutor board because it allows you to diversify your hate as opposed to getting wrecked by a Pyroclasm.

Damnit, Maverick is like the Brokeback Mountain of decks for me...

I just can't quit it.

[Deckerator]

If any of you are playing with Loyal Retainers...Why are you not playing Griselbrand?

I play with 2 loyal retainers and Elesh and Griselbrand as my two targets. I have tested it not many times but this few times i have to say i like grisbrand, too. Griselbrand gives the deck a really good boost. Flying, lifelink and draw ability is really nice. You can protect him with mother of runes, he gets exalted and the best thing is, you can draw 7 cards which is really good, Because you have not many (1-2) card draw abiliries in this deck.

I will test him more times

[Koby]

I play with 2 loyal retainers and Elesh and Griselbrand as my two targets. I have tested it not many times but this few times i have to say i like grisbrand, too. Griselbrand gives the deck a really good boost. Flying, lifelink and draw ability is really nice. You can protect him with mother of runes, he gets exalted and the best thing is, you can draw 7 cards which is really good, Because you have not many (1-2) card draw abiliries in this deck.

I will test him more times

Lets be honest here. Griselbrand is broken. That Maverick can sneak him into play is just comedy. He's bonkers in every deck that can put him in. :)

[1mpulse]

Damnit, Maverick is like the Brokeback Mountain of decks for me...

I just can't quit it.

Lol.


So.. what do you against a turn 1 Thoughtseize on the when you're on the play?


In lists that run 3x Thalia, 1x Teeg, 2x Scavenging Ooze, how many more hate bears for combo can you feasibly run?

Lots O'Bears:
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thalia
2 Teeg
3 Revoker
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Ooze
3 Faerie
4 Knight

Edit:
Lets be honest here. Griselbrand is broken. That Maverick can sneak him into play is just comedy. He's bonkers in every deck that can put him in. :)

When even a fair deck is playing Griselbrand, you know there is a problem.

[Deckerator]

Yeah maybe. But now you can play him 3 nore month and i will do this. :-)
But it is maybe possible that he will never get banned. He is new, he is a bit overhyped and he is good, that is sure. But lets wait. I think they will not ban him because he doesnt overflow the meta like the other cards they banned, for example survival, mental misstep. this cards had
to be played or you have to create an anti
deck. You havent got this problem with Griselbrand. Not many winner decks are playing him.

@1mpulse: I havent seen him be played at a big tournament in a "fair" deck. So lets wait and have a look

[Esper3k]

Lot O'Bears:
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thalia
2 Teeg
3 Revoker
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Ooze
3 Faerie
4 Knight

Edit:

When even a fair deck is playing Griselbrand, you know there is a problem.

Mindcensor and GSZ are simply too slow or do nothing against a lot of the combo out there (Dredge, Reanimator, Sneaky Show all kind of shrug those off).

Revokers are alright, but again don't necessarily do much against combo.

Faerie's aren't really hate bears as it's not like it's a dude you plop down and it disrupts your opponent. It might as well be an instant that costs 0 and can't be countered.

With the exception of dealing only with the single card, Show & Tell, Knight is pretty terrible against combo, imo.

===============================

And let's not kid ourselves - Maverick isn't a fair deck :) We win by attempting to ask "answer this card or lose the game" against our opponents as many times as possible in a match.

[1mpulse]

Haha, I was just joking about that Griselbrand in Maverick part. You're opponents must shit bricks though when you Shaman up a Griselbrand. lol


Mindcensor and GSZ are simply too slow or do nothing against a lot of the combo out there (Dredge, Reanimator, Sneaky Show all kind of shrug those off).

Revokers are alright, but again don't necessarily do much against combo.

Faerie's aren't really hate bears as it's not like it's a dude you plop down and it disrupts your opponent. It might as well be an instant that costs 0 and can't be countered.

With the exception of dealing only with the single card, Show & Tell, Knight is pretty terrible against combo, imo.


I was just listing all the hate. They aren't going to be able to Thoughseize everything.

GSZ and Mindcensor are fast enough when you pair then with the other hate.

Revoker is better than than you give it credit for. Does something against every combo deck other than Reanimator.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, but eTutor protects you from hand disruption when you're on the play on top of doubling as more focused hate (virtually increasing the specific sideboard cards you're bringing in).

For example, while Revoker could potentially do something in most matchups, it's rarely amazing or completely shuts out an opponent compared to something like an Ethersworn Canonist, Circle of Protection: Red, etc.

[AlmostGrown]

a quick aside - Warmth is better than COP: Red

[Esper3k]

a quick aside - Warmth is better than COP: Red

I always found Worship to be hilarious as well. I just mentioned CoP since it's the most common one.

[M@verick]

@1mpulse

I agree if you expect many reanimator decks, faery macabre is the best side card.


As flounce notes it's uncounterable. That's a pretty big deal against Reanimator, as if they have the turn 2 Reanimate, not only does your Surgical get Forced, but Dazed as well.

Faerie Macabre also gets rid of two things. What if the Dredge player goes: Turn one Faithless looting, discarding Troll and Imp. Play LED. You're dead. Surgical isn't going to get both those things. Reanimator, turn 1 Careful Study, discard two guys. Turn two Exhume, you're dead.

The only way to stop Macabre is to needle her, which slows your opponent down enough to the point that their dead, or you've had enough time to Pridemage, or just get an Ooze down. Or you could have never had it in your hand at all! They'll never know til it's too late.

Additionally, if you run SoLS like I do, you get to keep buying back your Macabre. Your opponent will not be amused.

As for boarding in Surgical against RUG or Storm... you shouldn't be doing that. It's the classic, board in Surgical against everything. Don't delude your deck.

I will agree that Surgical is way better against Aggro Loam though. That said, I've played against Aggro Loam twice in the past 2 years (in America). Reanimator and Dredge, a helluva lot more.

I disagree a bit:

I can assume if reanimator player has entomb/reanimate/fow i am fucked. But reanimator discarding 2 creatures turn 1 and having exhume in hand is very hard. If my opponent has the perfect hand...bad luck. But, as i said, i agree faery is the best card agaisnt reanimator... but is not against other decks.

Vs dredge both cards are similar (worst than a crypt), but if you play 2 S.E. you are going to win almost ALWAYS (removing bridges and ichorid)

SOLAS and fauna shaman are slow agasint reanimator and dredge if you are on the draw.

The question is versatility. I agree S.E. is not so good agasint RUG, but it is when your opponents plays heavy control miracle deck or blade. Having information about his hand or removing swords is always very good, and its still better the shuffle effect it does against sensei-miracle.

S.E. is not the best card vs storm combo, but it helps, removing a brasintorm or ponder when opponent is tapped, or the key card after ad nauseam (you know all cards revealed), because storm player is going to loss if he tries to win with past in flames.

[Vinnie]

hi

I dont see many people using thorn of amethyst at SB since Thalia came out.

You guys dont think that can be good VS all combo decks (except elfball and reanimator) to run more 3~4 thorns andor +1 thalia?

Its really good VS our bad matchups,that its combo decks.with thorn,its 3~4 slots that abrange a tons of decks.We can keep runing graveyard hates VS dredges (where thorn still good),paths (also good VS reanimator) and others hates as usual.

[Esper3k]

hi

I dont see many people using thorn of amethyst at SB since Thalia came out.

You guys dont think that can be good VS all combo decks (except elfball and reanimator) to run more 3~4 thorns andor +1 thalia?

Its really good VS our bad matchups,that its combo decks.with thorn,its 3~4 slots that abrange a tons of decks.We can keep runing graveyard hates VS dredges (where thorn still good),paths (also good VS reanimator) and others hates as usual.

I still run Thorn as a 1-of in my eTutor board. It's been alright - doesn't beat for 2 or pick up equipment like Thalia does, but it doesn't get swept away by Pyroclasm either (which is what I want it for).

[AlmostGrown]

or Massacre either!

[M@verick]

I got a mox pearl yesterday winning a 30 players tournament, with this list:

4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Savannah
1 Forest (3)
1 Plains (3)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Pairings:
R1 UW miracle 1-2
R2 Sneak-show 2-0
R3 Pikula 2-0
R4 Dark horizons 2-0
R5 Draw
Top 8 Grixis tempo 2-1
Top 4 Bant 2-1
Final UW miracles 2-0

Last five tournaments with almost the same list (just adding caverns): 4 finals and 1 top8 in a 100 people tourney

[I am the brainwasher]

I got a mox pearl yesterday winning a 30 players tournament
Gsus, I want 30-man tourneys where I can win a piece of Power also:eek:

Last five tournaments with almost the same list (just adding caverns): 4 finals and 1 top8 in a 100 people tourney

Does that mean you made it 5 times to the finals and won it once or that you were 4 times in the finals and once "just" top8?

Greetings, that Werebear guy

[M@verick]

Yep, the awards are very good. The whole collection is for awards

Hehe seems I explained badly. I splited 2 finals, I lost one, I won one, and did top8 in a big tourney

[I am the brainwasher]

Thx 4 clarifying that, good job as always.
Weathered Wayfarer is such an underestimated card, especially with Aether Vial... .

[ryscott85]

Sure thing!

Also, forgot to mention the Revokers.

I don't know if those guys will be staying for Detroit. They were there for Sneak and Show, but there might be something better. They also would have been pretty good had I made it to Elves. Other than that, there isn't really any other high profile decks to board them in against.

Anyone think they have a better answer that has more applications against Sneak and Show other than Revoker?

Hey man,
Did you end up going to Detroit? What type of list did you decide on? I forgot to ask you... how do you feel about Cavern of Souls in Mavrick?

[southfloridamagic]

Got 1st out of 20 tonight playing M@verick's Aether Vial list. Not missing green sun at all. Not even a little. It's late, but I'll have a tourney report w/ a video feature match up soon.

[flounce]

Is it worth bringing in choke against RUG Delver when sideboarding? I'm assuming it doesn't do enough.

[Fade]

Is it worth bringing in choke against RUG Delver when sideboarding? I'm assuming it doesn't do enough.

It's not really worth it. If you are running E-tutor sideboard I also wouldn't bother bringing the tutors in for it. I normally take out all the bad cards in the match up and if I have space fill them with some number of choke. Don't rely on it though as they can just spell pierce/daze it.

[Esper3k]

I actually like Choke. The way I see it, we usually win the game if we stabilize and the game goes into the long game.

When you drop Choke, if they don't immediately kill you, you're going to eventually win the game since they have to keep using islands to cantrip.

If they kept in Spell Pierce against us, that's great since in general, we don't have that many targets they can feasibly hit (you can easily play around it with StP/PtE).

[Fade]

I actually like Choke. The way I see it, we usually win the game if we stabilize and the game goes into the long game.

When you drop Choke, if they don't immediately kill you, you're going to eventually win the game since they have to keep using islands to cantrip.

If they kept in Spell Pierce against us, that's great since in general, we don't have that many targets they can feasibly hit (you can easily play around it with StP/PtE).

With my experience with RUG Delver, they have normally established a Delver clock and spending a turn to choke them isn't that impressive when they can Daze a land back to their hand and then win with bolts. I think it's a fine card but it's the last card I board in. Generally RUG has 4 submerge 1 Ancient grudge and some number of scavenging Ooze to bring in against us so they generally keep in some number of spell pierce as they board out their forces.

[Esper3k]

With my experience with RUG Delver, they have normally established a Delver clock and spending a turn to choke them isn't that impressive when they can Daze a land back to their hand and then win with bolts. I think it's a fine card but it's the last card I board in. Generally RUG has 4 submerge 1 Ancient grudge and some number of scavenging Ooze to bring in against us so they generally keep in some number of spell pierce as they board out their forces.

Sure, if they can pretty much immediately kill you / you haven't stabilized, then Choke isn't going to help you that much.

From my experience, you really have to save your removal for the Delvers. Ignore 'goyfs and Mongooses until you absolutely have to deal with them. Post board, it should be even easier for you to deal with Delvers as you bring in PtE and they tend to board out Forces.

Choke makes their Scavenging Oozes (which I think is a bad card in RUG anyways) much worse as well.

[Fade]

Sure, if they can pretty much immediately kill you / you haven't stabilized, then Choke isn't going to help you that much.

From my experience, you really have to save your removal for the Delvers. Ignore 'goyfs and Mongooses until you absolutely have to deal with them. Post board, it should be even easier for you to deal with Delvers as you bring in PtE and they tend to board out Forces.

Choke makes their Scavenging Oozes (which I think is a bad card in RUG anyways) much worse as well.

RUG Delver is a favored matchup regardless both pre-board and post-board. So my reasoning is why bring in a 3 mana enchantment that plays into their Dazes / extra spell pierces when you could just play another threat? They also have their wasteland / stifle package to stunt our mana, bolt for the mana dork, and sometimes getting up to three mana is a struggle if you can't fetch for your basics.

Again, I'm not saying the card is bad but instead of playing all of them I only board in one or two if any at all.

Delver is the only creature you should be worried about because everything else is just smaller than a Knight/Ooze so it's pretty obvious to save removal or fetch up a maze to stop their clock.

[Esper3k]

Was thinking about Choke some more and another point is that it makes their Mind Harnesses (which I think is their best card against us) significantly worse.

[Fade]

Was thinking about Choke some more and another point is that it makes their Mind Harnesses (which I think is their best card against us) significantly worse.

I haven't seen Mind harness in a RUG sideboard in a long time but that's true. Most lists just run 4 Submerge as it's a free card and can get rid of our threat if you play into it.

[Esper3k]

RUG Delver is a favored matchup regardless both pre-board and post-board. So my reasoning is why bring in a 3 mana enchantment that plays into their Dazes / extra spell pierces when you could just play another threat? They also have their wasteland / stifle package to stunt our mana, bolt for the mana dork, and sometimes getting up to three mana is a struggle if you can't fetch for your basics.

Again, I'm not saying the card is bad but instead of playing all of them I only board in one or two if any at all.

Delver is the only creature you should be worried about because everything else is just smaller than a Knight/Ooze so it's pretty obvious to save removal or fetch up a maze to stop their clock.

I only play 2 Chokes (eTutor board) these days. I think we're generally in agreement that Choke is what comes in from the board last after our extra removal.

For me, I've been boarding:
-3 SFM
-2 Qasali
-1 Teeg
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Thalia

+3 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
+2 Oblivion Ring (added these in as a concession to Sneaky Show)
+2 Choke

I have been thinking though, with less Spell Snares being played these days, if the SFM's should come in and all the Thalias come out.

[Esper3k]

I haven't seen Mind harness in a RUG sideboard in a long time but that's true. Most lists just run 4 Submerge as it's a free card and can get rid of our threat if you play into it.

Hah the RUG players in my meta all play like 4x Submerge, 2-3x Mind Harness. So much hate for us!

[M@verick]

I would side out always all thalias being on the draw. I dont want t loss against an early delver. I like gaddok in this MU, is the perfect card against his best removal, submerge. And not all players side out fows.
I also like choke. I usually side in 2 of 3

[Sarterus]

I would side out always all thalias being on the draw. I dont want t loss against an early delver. I like gaddok in this MU, is the perfect card against his best removal, submerge. And not all players side out fows.
I also like choke. I usually side in 2 of 3

I agree with leaving Gaddok in it is great against submerge. I like Thalia though also it slows down the deck manipulation and is a good attacker in a race. Although I play a faster version of Maverick with Nacatls.

Choke is junk against RUG many list play a Taiga and Daze lets them reset their land while it does nothing against their clocks. I would much rather have a maze or a Path to Exile which shines against a deck with no basics. I have been experimenting siding in an honorable passage for the bolts it can turn a race around.

[Esper3k]

I agree with leaving Gaddok in it is great against submerge. I like Thalia though also it slows down the deck manipulation and is a good attacker in a race. Although I play a faster version of Maverick with Nacatls.

Choke is junk against RUG many list play a Taiga and Daze lets them reset their land while it does nothing against their clocks. I would much rather have a maze or a Path to Exile which shines against a deck with no basics. I have been experimenting siding in an honorable passage for the bolts it can turn a race around.

No one is saying board in Choke over removal from the board.

I think Thalia is pretty bad in that matchup because:

1) It opens us up for more 2 for 1's from Forked Bolt
2) She is a terrible blocker (we're the control role in this matchup, we shouldn't be trying to race).
3) She doesn't actually slow them down very much since it doesn't keep them from playing creatures and they still have plenty of mana to use their removal on our guys.

[Valtrix]

I have been experimenting siding in an honorable passage for the bolts it can turn a race around.

Honestly, if you're that concerned about them I feel that Burrenton Forge-Tender would be stronger, since they can easily play around honorable passage. With tender on the other hand, you shut down all of their removal, which can open up ways to protect your creatures and make it difficult for them to deal with you. I particularly like how he protects SFM, and how forge-tender can put on equipment without RUG being able to answer your creature at all.

[xiaocho]

No one is saying board in Choke over removal from the board.

I think Thalia is pretty bad in that matchup because:

1) It opens us up for more 2 for 1's from Forked Bolt
2) She is a terrible blocker (we're the control role in this matchup, we shouldn't be trying to race).
3) She doesn't actually slow them down very much since it doesn't keep them from playing creatures and they still have plenty of mana to use their removal on our guys.

lies.

what are u talking about? the matchup against RUG Delver?

Thalia is one of our best cards in this match up.

RUG Delver's specialty is to be able to operate on 2 lands (tropical + volcanic). If u increase the spells cost the deck becomes less efficient.

[Esper3k]

lies.

what are u talking about? the matchup against RUG Delver?

Thalia is one of our best cards in this match up.

RUG Delver's specialty is to be able to operate on 2 lands (tropical + volcanic). If u increase the spells cost the deck becomes less efficient.

You're kidding, right?

While increasing the cost of their non-creature spells (since Thalia does absolutely nothing to stop Mongoose, Delver, or Goyf) is nice, she doesn't matter in the long run since you can't stack multiple of her effects to really lock them out.

So while it now costs them 2 to Forked Bolt Thalia + Arbor / Hierarch / Mom, they can still do it fairly easily.

Again, as a creature, Thalia can't block any of their creatures nor can she race any of them.

[xiaocho]

no, RUG players seriously hate Thalia.

It slows them down and thats all u want to achieve.

I'm pretty sure I've read something regarding thalia and her usefulness against RUG at starcitygames. Unfortunately I couldnt find it.

[Koby]

What Thalia does:
Forces RUG to continue playing lands. This is at the expense of saving lands in hand to Brainstorm away. It also means not being able to play Ponder, find Bolt, play Bolt with any less than 4 mana. It means Daze now costs :1: and a land drop.

Thalia is great against RUG, but terrible against their creatures. Luckily, we have Jitte and StP and Mother of Runes and Knight of the Fatass-wastery

[M@verick]

In theory, thalia is the perfect card against RUG tempo. But i didnt find that good when I tested, specially being on the draw. If your opponent has battlefield advantatge, playing thalia is a bad idea, because is hardest for us resolving a solution against his creatures: stp, GSZ, jitte... the opponent just need to defense his advantate to win, and we are going to fall in all dazes, pierces, and stifles, cause we are hurry up.

[Koby]

Being on the draw against RUG is the bigger problem. I don't think it's just Thalia that suffers. In my recent testing, many decks lose to a decent RUG opener while being on the draw.

[Esper3k]

Damn that T1 Delver.

So good!

[Esper3k]

Also, a reason I don't like Thalia is because she makes their Forked Bolts (which are already very good against us) usually a guaranteed 2 for 1.

In a matchup where we're generally going to win by grinding them out, she doesn't really help with that plan when she's generating card disadvantage for us.

[Tacosnape]

Lots of talk about RUG Delver. You don't have to do a lot of drastic things to make this matchup better. Just metagame a little. Consider the following:

1. If you aren't playing a single copy of Sylvan Safekeeper, just go try it. It's seriously so stupidly amazingly clutch. It's pretty solid in the RUG Delver matchup, both for burn protection and for getting a Knight of the Reliquary far past their ability to keep one under control. I've outraced turn one Delvers with turn three Knights because of Safekeeper mass-sacrifices before.

2. Play more Scavenging Oozes. They're such a problem for Mongoose and Tarmogoyf both if they get going.

3. Toss in an extra Path or two on top of your STP's so you can laser the turn one Delvers more reliably.

4. Maindeck the Maze. If Knight's your control guy, let him do his job better.

5. Board a single copy of Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Yes, I'll wait while you go gatherer that. (Taps foot...) Okay? Okay. Efficient little dude. Ices down Delvers, Emrakuls, and Griselbrands. Kills Cliques. If you don't want to do this, then just play a second Scryb Ranger.

[Koby]

5. Board a single copy of Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Yes, I'll wait while you go gatherer that. (Taps foot...) Okay? Okay. Efficient little dude. Ices down Delvers, Emrakuls, and Griselbrands. Kills Cliques. If you don't want to do this, then just play a second Scryb Ranger.

Don't forget he also nukes Spirits like he's a Ghostbuster.

[Esper3k]

5. Board a single copy of Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Yes, I'll wait while you go gatherer that. (Taps foot...) Okay? Okay. Efficient little dude. Ices down Delvers, Emrakuls, and Griselbrands. Kills Cliques. If you don't want to do this, then just play a second Scryb Ranger.

Rofl that guy is awesome.

I haven't gotten around to testing it, but I wanted to give Ulvenwald Tracker a spin...

[from Cairo]

Rofl that guy is awesome.

I haven't gotten around to testing it, but I wanted to give Ulvenwald Tracker a spin...

I wasn't impressed with Ulvenwald Tracker . I found Thornscape Apprentice to be better. This Sniper duder from Betrayers doesn't strike me as much stronger unless you're seeing a ton of Lingering Souls.

In an unknown/normal meta I'd sooner run additional Path to Exiles than tie up slots with tappers.

[Tacosnape]

So here's a pre-emptive question - What're we gonna do about Omniscience, since most of our S&T strategy is based on doing Knight/Karakas stuff, and Omniscience is just going to slaughter us? Thalia has a minor effect on it, but what's our best strategy here otherwise? Harmonic Sliver? Ethersworn Canonist?

[Esper3k]

Is Omniscience even something we really have to worry about? It looks like right now a lot of those decks are 3 card combo decks. I probably wouldn't worry about it until a list gets settled for it - presuming the deck even goes anywhere.

[Justin]

Yeah, why would Show and Tell decks play a card that doesn't win the game for them immediately? They are fine with Griselbrand and Emrakul.

[Thorondor]

they do instant win with a wish, it is a 3 card combo, that is right, but they instant win and karakas won't help you.

[Justin]

OK, I see it now. It's kind of like Hive Mind, then, another three card combo (except Hive Mind is easier to hard cast). I guess it would just be a bad matchup, which Show and Tell Decks already are anyway. I don't know what you can do, except to play more Thalia and aggressively attack their mana base.

[ScatmanX]

OK, I see it now. It's kind of like Hive Mind, then, another three card combo (except Hive Mind is easier to hard cast). I guess it would just be a bad matchup, which Show and Tell Decks already are anyway. I don't know what you can do, except to play more Thalia and aggressively attack their mana base.
But instead of Pacts you get to play more counter/cantrip and Burning Wish...

[Tacosnape]

I think that more Harmonic Sliver just gets there if Omniscience turns into a real thing (And I think it absolutely will.) Course, then you get to decide whether you're dropping it or Knight off a Show and Tell, which makes life a little more complicated.

[JUNI0R]

I don't think Omniscience will be a thing in SnT. Why would they drop that into play when they could just drop a win condition into play. It waters down the deck and requires them to have a third card in hand to go off.

[door]

So here's a pre-emptive question - What're we gonna do about Omniscience, since most of our S&T strategy is based on doing Knight/Karakas stuff, and Omniscience is just going to slaughter us? Thalia has a minor effect on it, but what's our best strategy here otherwise? Harmonic Sliver? Ethersworn Canonist?

The lists posted at the moment are not better than the standart dream halls deck, which is not a problem. There are plenty of answers already in maverik: qasali, teeg, thalia, canonist, wastelands, etc. The % of a goldfish like show-omni-staggershock-world is too little to worry about.

[Kuma]

Best way I've found to deal with Show and Tell decks is splash blue and run 4 Flusterstorm in the board. Those decks pretty much can't resolve a Show and Tell through Flusterstorm. If they wait to play around it, that just gives you time to get a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to stick or potentially Wasteland them out of the game.

In my experience, if they aren't cheating a creature/Hive Mind/Dream Halls into play by the third turn, we beat them.

[xiaocho]

i can follow ur argumentation.

can u explain why flusterstorm is great against Sneak&Tell? It's not like ur going to win the counterwar with a mere flusterstorm.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Whenever they go for Show and Tell and you have the Flusterstorm they will need 2 Counters/Mana because you have 1 Storm + Flusterstorm. Misderection doesn't work as hardcounter as long as you have 1 mana up, but they side this out most likely anyways., whereas Spell Pierce can easily redirected to Misdicetion.

Kuma, how much testing did you invest for that matchup, it might be time to add 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Gilded Drake to the board if ou meta demands it. (Sneak Show is nearly non existant here)

[from Cairo]

i can follow ur argumentation.

can u explain why flusterstorm is great against Sneak&Tell? It's not like ur going to win the counterwar with a mere flusterstorm.

Your post doesn't make sense. Either you follow Kuma's point or it requires further explanation? I can't see how both?~

So Show and Tell will cost :2::u:. His build has the ability to Fusterstorm, as it will be the 2nd spell, it double Force Spikes, so the Sneak and Show player isn't going to be able to Force/Misdirection through a resolution. They either walk into this game two, or expect it, but regardless they're forced to slow down. Their options will be to wait another turn or two playing around Flusterstorm or have to sculpt to a hand with 2 Show and Tells, both of these options buy Kuma time to land Thalia which exasserbates the situation. With Sneak and Show's jank mana base Wasteland can essentially do the same thing if attacking Sol lands.

Strikes me as a fine plan, Flusterstorm definitely complements Thalia and Wasteland well and splashes against Storm combo.

[xiaocho]

sorry,

I wanted to say:

I can't follow ur argumentation.

[M@verick]

Hey guys.
I have won a GPT to Gent today with my list. We were 30 players.
The rounds:

R1 0-2 Dredge
R2 2-1 Elves combo
R3 2-0 UWB Blade
R4 2-1 Nic fit
R5 Draw
Top 8 2-0 UW miracle
Top 4 2-0 UWB blade
Final: split to UW miracle

We will see in Gent ;)

[KevinTrudeau]

Really good to see that you're doing well versus UW Terminus, as that matchup seemed pretty bad when I initially matched them up in my head (fully aware of potential Vial+Teeg+Karakas shenanigans).

I went 2-1 with M@verick's list last Thursday in a small weekly tourney, losing to Lands (horrible matchup), and beating Reanimator and Merfolk handily. Aside from actually just having to scoop to Ensnaring Bridge game one, the list continued to feel pretty tight.

[mishima_kazuya]

Looks like Ben Stark didn't lose a match coming into the top 8 of GP Atlanta.

Do you guys think its
a) He has most optimal Maverick list?
b) He is a master player
c) A mix of both (probably more of b)

[Rafa]

I've bought the missing cards to build M@verick's list today on MTGO and I'll give it a spin.

[1mpulse]

Hey man, Did you end up going to Detroit? What type of list did you decide on? I forgot to ask you... how do you feel about Cavern of Souls in Mavrick?

Hey, sorry, I was finishing up school stuff this past week.

I was in Detroit, but I didn't do so hot.
1-3 in the Legacy Challenge the day before. 0.o;
Went with the same thing I played in Indy for the Open, went 1-2. 0.o;

Just didn't run so hot. Lost to UW Miracles and ... Food Chain combo in Detroit. Against UW, the games were close, and it went to three games. The Food Chain guy killed me on 2 both times. >.> Dropped early since someone else was heading back my way early as well.

Picked up the pieces though and did good in my weekly's, and just got home from a 3rd place at a SCG Super IQ for 260.

As for Cavern if Souls... I haven't been a fan of it. One thing I love about GW is the consistent manabase. While having uncounterable guys is good, I don't like opening the door to mana issues.

[Koby]

Went 2-2 in the GP side event with the old standard. Went 2-1 vs Reanimator then TheInfamousBearAssassin logic crushed the tarshit out of 1SylvanLibraryDogShitPile.dec

New list:
2 Sylvan Library

[Codename55]

Hello everyone, I'm a european Magic player and I've been playing Legacy for about 3 months now so I'm pretty much still a newb. :) I'm very much into Magic and doing lots of research hoping to get better at the game and I've been reading this thread a long time now, so I thought I'd make my first post here.

I've been playing GW Maverick for most of my 3 months of Legacy and I just love this deck. I'm going to attend GP Ghent and there was a trial yesterday that I participated in, I wrote a small report of it and thought I'd post it here. I like reading other people's reports here so maybe someone would like to read mine. :)


My list:

Main deck

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures total [28]

Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Artifacts total [2]

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Spells total [8]

Lands
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
Lands total [22]

Deck total [60]
__________________________________________
Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Warmth
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Sideboard total [15]

__

The report:

1 Hive Mind
Game 1: Fast Show and Tell into a Hive Mind, then some pacts, no interaction on my part.
Game 2: Long and grindy game, I have Thalia to slow him down, unfortunately he just plays lots of lands, kills Thalia and hardcasts Hive Mind for game.

0-2


2 BUG Control
Game 1: I get a fast Mom, Knight, Mindcensor etc. He sweeps with a Pernicious Deed but I just play more guys and win easily.
Game 2: I start with a Horizon Canopy and Noble Hierarch, Canopy gets waste'd. Next turn I fetch a dual land because I didn't think he could
have more wastes but he does and I get manascrewed (I just played bad here, because I am inexperienced).
Game 3: I get a fast Mom, Revoker naming Deed and Thalia, beat him to around 10. Couple of Innocent Bloods and Edicts later I have nothing,
but I top deck decently and win with a Knight.

2-1


3 RUG Tempo
Game 1: Thalia gets countered, Knight resolves. I StP his Delver and Goyf can't race the Knight, even though it was close (I win with 4 life and he has a Bolt).
Game 2: I kept a 4- land hand because I expected Stifles and had a Thalia. My fetch gets Stifled, there's a fast Delver on the board followed by
a Goyf and Mongoose. I get beaten hard but play a Mystic, fetch Jitte, get a Knight and basically win the game because of Jitte.
I was damn lucky he didn't see any of his boarded cards, this was again very close.

2-0


4 MUD Artifacts
Game 1: I start with a Wasteland and after using it, he is stuck on 1 land for too long. Knight takes the game.
Game 2: Second turn Wurmcoil Engine. I sided in a Maze of Ith so the game is stuck for a while. Soon there is a Blightsteel Colossus on the field
and eventually there's Lightning Greaves too so I chump block for a turn, then realize I have no outs because of shroud and scoop.
Game 3: Again I start with a Wasteland. He plays Revoker naming Knight. I play a Knight, fortunately I have lots of fetches and the Waste I used
earlier so Knight just beats for couple of turns for an uneventful game.

2-1


5 Storm - ID
1-1



Top 8:

1 Storm
Game 1: The same storm player I ID'd with for top8. I play a very quick Thalia, follow with some exalted manadorks for a quick clock and a Zenith into
Gaddock Teeg. He scoops.
Game 2: He plays a first turn Empty the Warrens and gets 10 goblins before I have a chance to even play a land.
Game 3: Again, quick Thalia, this time with Mom for protection and I also get an Ethersworn Canonist. He struggles for a while but finds no answers and
scoops.

2-1

2 Hive Mind
Game 1: Again with the Hive Mind, again the game is over really quick because Thalia gets Force of Willed and he plays a third turn Show and Tell for game.
Game 2: This time he isn't quite so lucky. I manage to stick some hatebears including Thalia and Mindcensor, he can't answer.
Game 3: I think his luck turned, he mulliganed to 6 and basically played "land - go" for couple of turns so I got Mom and something in the field, then respond
to his Intuition with a Mindcensor. Later he sweeped the board and because I didn't read the card, I let him kill Mom for free by giving Mindcensor the prot -
unnecessary because of flying, ah well. He doesn't draw anything relevant and I get a Sword and kill him with equipped Mindcensor.

2-1

3 Sneaky Show
Game 1: Second turn Show and Tell into a Griselbrand. I Show a Revoker and name Griselbrand. StP to Griselbrand gets Force'd, but I have another StP. Revoker becomes
exalted and beats for a couple of turns, unfortunately I draw nothing that is both relevant and fast, and he draws Sneak Attack, followed by Intuition into
3 Emrakuls, so I have a single Fauna Shaman on the field vs. his empty hand and Sneak Attack. He top decks Emrakul for game.

Game 2: I play a land, Noble Hierarch, pass. He plays Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell into Emrakul (I showed Choke), pass. I draw a Horizon Canopy, use it
to draw hoping to see Karakas but there's a fetch and I scoop. In retrospect I might have wanted to mulligate that 7, there was Thalia, Choke and a Manadork but
nothing else relevant, if there was a Knight I'd have probably won that match.

0-2

Since I lost the final I ended up 2nd place. No byes for GP Ghent but at least I got a bit of cash. :)

I'm very proud and happy for getting 2nd place, considering I haven't been playing for that long. I want to thank all people in this thread because I am absolutely sure that if I hadn't been reading here my list wouldn't be nearly as good. So thanks guys. :)

[maktus]

Hello everyone, I'm a european Magic player and I've been playing Legacy for about 3 months now so I'm pretty much still a newb. :) I'm very much into Magic and doing lots of research hoping to get better at the game and I've been reading this thread a long time now, so I thought I'd make my first post here.

I've been playing GW Maverick for most of my 3 months of Legacy and I just love this deck. I'm going to attend GP Ghent and there was a trial yesterday that I participated in, I wrote a small report of it and thought I'd post it here. I like reading other people's reports here so maybe someone would like to read mine. :)


My list:

Main deck

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Fauna Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures total [28]

Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Artifacts total [2]

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Spells total [8]

Lands
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
Lands total [22]

Deck total [60]
__________________________________________
Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Warmth
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Sideboard total [15]

__

The report:

1 Hive Mind
Game 1: Fast Show and Tell into a Hive Mind, then some pacts, no interaction on my part.
Game 2: Long and grindy game, I have Thalia to slow him down, unfortunately he just plays lots of lands, kills Thalia and hardcasts Hive Mind for game.

0-2


2 BUG Control
Game 1: I get a fast Mom, Knight, Mindcensor etc. He sweeps with a Pernicious Deed but I just play more guys and win easily.
Game 2: I start with a Horizon Canopy and Noble Hierarch, Canopy gets waste'd. Next turn I fetch a dual land because I didn't think he could
have more wastes but he does and I get manascrewed (I just played bad here, because I am inexperienced).
Game 3: I get a fast Mom, Revoker naming Deed and Thalia, beat him to around 10. Couple of Innocent Bloods and Edicts later I have nothing,
but I top deck decently and win with a Knight.

2-1


3 RUG Tempo
Game 1: Thalia gets countered, Knight resolves. I StP his Delver and Goyf can't race the Knight, even though it was close (I win with 4 life and he has a Bolt).
Game 2: I kept a 4- land hand because I expected Stifles and had a Thalia. My fetch gets Stifled, there's a fast Delver on the board followed by
a Goyf and Mongoose. I get beaten hard but play a Mystic, fetch Jitte, get a Knight and basically win the game because of Jitte.
I was damn lucky he didn't see any of his boarded cards, this was again very close.

2-0


4 MUD Artifacts
Game 1: I start with a Wasteland and after using it, he is stuck on 1 land for too long. Knight takes the game.
Game 2: Second turn Wurmcoil Engine. I sided in a Maze of Ith so the game is stuck for a while. Soon there is a Blightsteel Colossus on the field
and eventually there's Lightning Greaves too so I chump block for a turn, then realize I have no outs because of shroud and scoop.
Game 3: Again I start with a Wasteland. He plays Revoker naming Knight. I play a Knight, fortunately I have lots of fetches and the Waste I used
earlier so Knight just beats for couple of turns for an uneventful game.

2-1


5 Storm - ID
1-1



Top 8:

1 Storm
Game 1: The same storm player I ID'd with for top8. I play a very quick Thalia, follow with some exalted manadorks for a quick clock and a Zenith into
Gaddock Teeg. He scoops.
Game 2: He plays a first turn Empty the Warrens and gets 10 goblins before I have a chance to even play a land.
Game 3: Again, quick Thalia, this time with Mom for protection and I also get an Ethersworn Canonist. He struggles for a while but finds no answers and
scoops.

2-1

2 Hive Mind
Game 1: Again with the Hive Mind, again the game is over really quick because Thalia gets Force of Willed and he plays a third turn Show and Tell for game.
Game 2: This time he isn't quite so lucky. I manage to stick some hatebears including Thalia and Mindcensor, he can't answer.
Game 3: I think his luck turned, he mulliganed to 6 and basically played "land - go" for couple of turns so I got Mom and something in the field, then respond
to his Intuition with a Mindcensor. Later he sweeped the board and because I didn't read the card, I let him kill Mom for free by giving Mindcensor the prot -
unnecessary because of flying, ah well. He doesn't draw anything relevant and I get a Sword and kill him with equipped Mindcensor.

2-1

3 Sneaky Show
Game 1: Second turn Show and Tell into a Griselbrand. I Show a Revoker and name Griselbrand. StP to Griselbrand gets Force'd, but I have another StP. Revoker becomes
exalted and beats for a couple of turns, unfortunately I draw nothing that is both relevant and fast, and he draws Sneak Attack, followed by Intuition into
3 Emrakuls, so I have a single Fauna Shaman on the field vs. his empty hand and Sneak Attack. He top decks Emrakul for game.

Game 2: I play a land, Noble Hierarch, pass. He plays Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell into Emrakul (I showed Choke), pass. I draw a Horizon Canopy, use it
to draw hoping to see Karakas but there's a fetch and I scoop. In retrospect I might have wanted to mulligate that 7, there was Thalia, Choke and a Manadork but
nothing else relevant, if there was a Knight I'd have probably won that match.

0-2

Since I lost the final I ended up 2nd place. No byes for GP Ghent but at least I got a bit of cash. :)

I'm very proud and happy for getting 2nd place, considering I haven't been playing for that long. I want to thank all people in this thread because I am absolutely sure that if I hadn't been reading here my list wouldn't be nearly as good. So thanks guys. :)

Congratulations! Did you liked 2x revokers and only 1x pridemage in main deck? the reverse would be better?

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Hey guys. I've been playing quite a bit with maverick lately, and I managed to sneak a win past a 40ish man tourney and pick up the byes for Ghent and some tundras (yummy).
The meta was odd - nearly half the room was maverick, and I also played against sneak attack, enchantress (who ended up topping the Swiss...) and a few RUG players.

But some questions for some more experienced maverick players off the back of my tournament experience...

1)... Whats the mirror really about? Not in terms of card choice, but strategy. Is the plan to lock the ground and get in with a cheeky jitte equipped (insert flyer of choice here)? Is it to power through the ground by plowing all moms and making a rather large knight/ooze? What tends to be the first green sun target? I was unimpressed with Linvalas being played against me. Karakas or path was always on hand it seemed, and the tempo loss it took them to set it up seemed fatal...

2)... Maze of ith on the side or in the main? I decided to man up and put the maze of ith on the board specifically against stoneblade style matchups (threat light ones where they tend to not play wasteland...). Against RUG and the mirror it just tends to eat a waste, but there were a few times where one would have been handy even in those matchups. Is it worth the mainboard slot or is it worth having more removal (I went for 4 stp, 1 path in the main with 2 on the board with the maze).

3)... Is it worth devoting a lot of board space (say 3-4 slots) against sneak attack when super tight play and a bit of luck seems to make it? Fauna shaman ---> answer play seems a bit slow or GSZ reliant...

4)... What to do with 'free' slots. I dismantled my old build completely, and started again, and I discovered that I had 3 slots that were pretty flexible, So I went with an eternal witness, an ulvenwald tracker and the extra path. (The tracker, I have to say, was boss all day :)). Does anyone else have any good choices for flex slots? The other ones which didnt make the cut were: fauna shaman, Siguarda, Thrun, Edric, spymaster of trest (!!!?! :)), Rafiq of the many, rhox war monk, terravore, dauntless escort, the 4th hierarch (I was playing 3 with 1 bop...), silhana ledgewalker, caller of the claw (!!!!??), Elspeth, knight errant, tajuru preserver, daybreak ranger, loaming shaman, the 2nd sylvan library. I included all my thoughts, no matter how bad just for insight into my thought process...

5)... Any tips on the enchantress matchup? Straight up try and race? Try and be a bit more controlly with pidemages and mindcensors/Teeg? Or just chalk it up as a rough one and move on?

6)... My board on the day was:

1 bojuka bog
3 mindbreak trap
1 crop rotation
1 sugical extraction
1 krosan grip
1 Gideon juda
1 Thrun
1 life from the loam
2 choke
2 path to exile
1 maze of ith

It felt like the crop rotation was a bit cute (The only I matchup I bought it in was vs enchantress for the bog > replenish idea, oh and of course sneak attack, but I never saw it...). I boarded in Thrun a lot, so he might warrant a mainboard slot. The grip was invaluable against sneak/show, gripping a blood moon to turn karakas on again. The Gideon felt like cheating in the mirror. Chokes were ridiculous. The mindbreak traps are there because I have storm paranoia, and I know its hard to play around both permanents and counters for them. Also - belcher is a deck. I'd love to shave this to 2 but it feels really risky. I boarded in the loam a lot but didnt see it once, so maybe its unnecessary... Any ideas on how to tighten it up? I love the idea of making space for some Garruk (you know, the one that flips....) against control / the mirror.

Any thoughts/comments/answers welcome.

The Spanish Tunnel King

[arcannys]

Hey guys. I've been playing quite a bit with maverick lately, and I managed to sneak a win past a 40ish man tourney and pick up the byes for Ghent and some tundras (yummy).
The meta was odd - nearly half the room was maverick, and I also played against sneak attack, enchantress (who ended up topping the Swiss...) and a few RUG players.

But some questions for some more experienced maverick players off the back of my tournament experience...

1)... Whats the mirror really about? Not in terms of card choice, but strategy. Is the plan to lock the ground and get in with a cheeky jitte equipped (insert flyer of choice here)? Is it to power through the ground by plowing all moms and making a rather large knight/ooze? What tends to be the first green sun target? I was unimpressed with Linvalas being played against me. Karakas or path was always on hand it seemed, and the tempo loss it took them to set it up seemed fatal...

2)... Maze of ith on the side or in the main? I decided to man up and put the maze of ith on the board specifically against stoneblade style matchups (threat light ones where they tend to not play wasteland...). Against RUG and the mirror it just tends to eat a waste, but there were a few times where one would have been handy even in those matchups. Is it worth the mainboard slot or is it worth having more removal (I went for 4 stp, 1 path in the main with 2 on the board with the maze).

3)... Is it worth devoting a lot of board space (say 3-4 slots) against sneak attack when super tight play and a bit of luck seems to make it? Fauna shaman ---> answer play seems a bit slow or GSZ reliant...

4)... What to do with 'free' slots. I dismantled my old build completely, and started again, and I discovered that I had 3 slots that were pretty flexible, So I went with an eternal witness, an ulvenwald tracker and the extra path. (The tracker, I have to say, was boss all day :)). Does anyone else have any good choices for flex slots? The other ones which didnt make the cut were: fauna shaman, Siguarda, Thrun, Edric, spymaster of trest (!!!?! :)), Rafiq of the many, rhox war monk, terravore, dauntless escort, the 4th hierarch (I was playing 3 with 1 bop...), silhana ledgewalker, caller of the claw (!!!!??), Elspeth, knight errant, tajuru preserver, daybreak ranger, loaming shaman, the 2nd sylvan library. I included all my thoughts, no matter how bad just for insight into my thought process...

5)... Any tips on the enchantress matchup? Straight up try and race? Try and be a bit more controlly with pidemages and mindcensors/Teeg? Or just chalk it up as a rough one and move on?

6)... My board on the day was:

1 bojuka bog
3 mindbreak trap
1 crop rotation
1 sugical extraction
1 krosan grip
1 Gideon juda
1 Thrun
1 life from the loam
2 choke
2 path to exile
1 maze of ith

It felt like the crop rotation was a bit cute (The only I matchup I bought it in was vs enchantress for the bog > replenish idea, oh and of course sneak attack, but I never saw it...). I boarded in Thrun a lot, so he might warrant a mainboard slot. The grip was invaluable against sneak/show, gripping a blood moon to turn karakas on again. The Gideon felt like cheating in the mirror. Chokes were ridiculous. The mindbreak traps are there because I have storm paranoia, and I know its hard to play around both permanents and counters for them. Also - belcher is a deck. I'd love to shave this to 2 but it feels really risky. I boarded in the loam a lot but didnt see it once, so maybe its unnecessary... Any ideas on how to tighten it up? I love the idea of making space for some Garruk (you know, the one that flips....) against control / the mirror.

Any thoughts/comments/answers welcome.

The Spanish Tunnel King


1- The mirror is all about the small guys (mom, scryb...) and jitte. KotR is not what you wanna be doing (at least in the early game) in the mirror. If you expect a lot of mirros in your meta you could try this:

if you're running stoneforge try Mortarpod in the sideboard.
if you're running fauna shaman (i think its terrible but it seems to be somewhat popular now) try linvala.
There's a very niche card that it turns to be insane in the mirror: Faith Shield
It helps you protect your jitte's from their qasalis which can lead to huge blowouts and ofcourse it counters STP. As a side note it also counters Tendrils of agony ;)

2- Maze of ith is not very good in the mirror, you'll get at most 1 activation out of it, its only decent against RUG tempo right now. I'd rather play a second karakas over it.

3- There isn't rlly a good answer to sneak&show decks in our colors. The main strategy is to try to resolve a gaddock teeg to prevent them from playing Sneak attack, and have a KotR ready in your hand for when they play show and tell.
Thalia is also great in this MU.

4- Play planeswalkers. Garruk relentless is better when Maverick is popular. Elspeth is better against control decks. They're great against deed.decks, insane in the mirror, and great against control decks. I run a split of 1 garruk, 1 elspeth, and a 3rd planeswalker in the sideboard.

5- enchantress is not very popular right now because of griselbrand decks, i wouldn't waste sideboard slots for this MU if i were to play a GP. Thalia is awesome in this Mu, canonist is also insane if you have them in your board. Try to stick a thalia/gaddock, and protect it with moms. And use your qasalis wisely.

6- read above and make your own conclusions ;)

[Codename55]

Congratulations! Did you liked 2x revokers and only 1x pridemage in main deck? the reverse would be better?

Thanks :)

Sadly, I didn't have any match ups in the tournament where I felt the revokers were *really* good. When I named Pernicious Deed on a Revoker, I still don't know did my opponent actually have a deed in his hand but I think it was the only time in the tournament that revoker was very important. Against Show and Tell, well, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think when Show and Tell resolves and I put revoker on the field and he puts Griselbrand, revoker's ability triggers and my opponent could actually respond to the trigger by drawing cards with Griselbrand, so unless I'm wrong, revoker was only good here because my opponent did not realize this. ;) Of course revoker would still be good if I play it before he plays his Show and Tell.

There was only 1 situation when I really hoped I'd draw a Pridemage on the tournament and it was in the final when my opponent was top decking with Sneak Attack in play. In that situation revoker would have been a better draw.

[M@verick]

Revoker ability is not triggered, is an static ability. Your opponent couldnt respond drawing with griselbrand

[Codename55]

Revoker ability is not triggered, is an static ability. Your opponent couldnt respond drawing with griselbrand

Thanks, that is very good to know. :) So that makes revoker very good against Show and Tell with the current popularity of Griselbrand.

[Einherjer]

Hey, first time I am posting a list in a non-blue-thread for... I do not remember. But the spirit of Maverick did strike me, it seems. It's a fun deck to play, even though it's not my competitive deck of choice. Still I'd like so critics on my list, please:

>>Core-lands
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savanna
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
>>Extra-lands
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
>>They fight for me
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Scryb Ranger
>>We ensure the victory aswell
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow


Is there anything I stumbled across? Or does this list look decent? Any criticism is highly appreciated.

Greetings

[M@verick]

I dont like playing 2xdryad, but your list seems pretty good. I like a lot because you play the correct cards to win a mirror: stoneforge with light and shadow, aven mindcensor and 2 x sylvan library.

[Einherjer]

I dont like playing 2xdryad, but your list seems pretty good. I like a lot because you play the correct cards to win a mirror: stoneforge with light and shadow, aven mindcensor and 2 x sylvan library.

Oh thank you, plaudit from you means a lot to me :)

On the 2 Dryad Arbor: They are meant to fight the Terminus.decks. Fetching an Arbot eoT is pretty strong. I play two so I can use one as an accelerator and the second on for this eoT "trick". In addition to it, people do not expect to see a second one, which can be game-winning from time to time, at least when you play an even skilled player, who does know the standard lists. This is worth the expenses of being a little slowed down from time to time, if you ask me.

Greetings

[M@verick]

Well you are right. There are many tricks with the dryad, and the second one is unexpexted. I used to play one on my zenith less version, becuase the tricks with scryb and with equipment after a massive removal. Is also very good against dredge.

Perhaps the slowing down is not as important as the advantatges of his tricks. that is the question to consider. But one thing is obvius: the more equipments you play, better is dryad.

[fimo]

has anybody tried out Intrepid Hero? sounds good to me in fighting the mirror, tarmogoyf, sneak & show, some reanimator targets and random stuff. It overlaps with linvala most of the times, but is linvala strickly better?
I feel like Intrepid Hero may be worth testing since the printing of cavern of souls. Except for the mirror, Intrepid Hero can deal with the huge threats coming from blue decks, therefore, playing cavern of souls and naming humans for T2 thalia/teeg and T3 Intrepid Hero can be game breaking in those MUs.

[maktus]

has anybody tried out Intrepid Hero? sounds good to me in fighting the mirror, tarmogoyf, sneak & show, some reanimator targets and random stuff. It overlaps with linvala most of the times, but is linvala strickly better?
I feel like Intrepid Hero may be worth testing since the printing of cavern of souls. Except for the mirror, Intrepid Hero can deal with the huge threats coming from blue decks, therefore, playing cavern of souls and naming humans for T2 thalia/teeg and T3 Intrepid Hero can be game breaking in those MUs.

gaddock isn't human, but intrepid could be a good choice.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Matsu tribe sniper!!! Pew pew!!!

[Koby]

has anybody tried out Intrepid Hero?

I was thinking about this card, but he's neither green, 3 mana, and re-enables the reanimation targets.

Both Thornscape Apprentice and Matsu-Tribe Sniper are in green and cheaper to cast/GSZ for, and maintain the creature around for any potential Legend rule shenanigans. It does require you activate them nearly every turn. The later can lock down 2 attackers.

[from Cairo]

has anybody tried out Intrepid Hero? sounds good to me in fighting the mirror, tarmogoyf, sneak & show, some reanimator targets and random stuff. It overlaps with linvala most of the times, but is linvala strickly better?
I feel like Intrepid Hero may be worth testing since the printing of cavern of souls. Except for the mirror, Intrepid Hero can deal with the huge threats coming from blue decks, therefore, playing cavern of souls and naming humans for T2 thalia/teeg and T3 Intrepid Hero can be game breaking in those MUs.


I agree with Koby that Thornscape Apprentice is probably stronger It's GSZenithable, comes online 1-2 turns earlier, can be used to answer Delver of Secrets and force Mother of Runes to tap, opening her to removal.

Preacher also strikes me as it's going to be better than Intrepid Hero. Same drawbacks really, :2::w: casting cost, it's also a Human, only instead of rebinning their Griselbrand, leaving them to Reanimate it again, you get to abuse the 7/7.

[fimo]

Both Thornscape Apprentice and Matsu-Tribe Sniper are in green and cheaper to cast/GSZ for, and maintain the creature around for any potential Legend rule shenanigans. It does require you activate them nearly every turn. The later can lock down 2 attackers.

I like Thornscape Apprentice better than Matsu-Tribe Sniper because he is human and costs only 1. On the other hand, it doesnt deal properly with an opponent knight of the reliquary since they can activate the ability in response. Also, a big issue is that it does not deal permanently with the creature, what about if the opponent plays a second or a third Knight of the reliquary/tarmogoyf/germ tokens/entreat the angels/big-ass-creature? Intrepid Hero can remove big threats every turn for the rest of the game and cannot be countered through a cavern.

[fimo]

I agree with Koby that Thornscape Apprentice is probably stronger It's GSZenithable, comes online 1-2 turns earlier, can be used to answer Delver of Secrets and force Mother of Runes to tap, opening her to removal.

Preacher also strikes me as it's going to be better than Intrepid Hero. Same drawbacks really, :2::w: casting cost, it's also a Human, only instead of rebinning their Griselbrand, leaving them to Reanimate it again, you get to abuse the 7/7.

Preacher looks really good too

[Julian23]

Preacher looks really good too

The best part: it's Oracle text no longer says you've got to give the creature back to your opponent once the game is over. Maximum profit! :cool:

[maktus]

Thanks :)

Sadly, I didn't have any match ups in the tournament where I felt the revokers were *really* good. When I named Pernicious Deed on a Revoker, I still don't know did my opponent actually have a deed in his hand but I think it was the only time in the tournament that revoker was very important. Against Show and Tell, well, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think when Show and Tell resolves and I put revoker on the field and he puts Griselbrand, revoker's ability triggers and my opponent could actually respond to the trigger by drawing cards with Griselbrand, so unless I'm wrong, revoker was only good here because my opponent did not realize this. ;) Of course revoker would still be good if I play it before he plays his Show and Tell.

There was only 1 situation when I really hoped I'd draw a Pridemage on the tournament and it was in the final when my opponent was top decking with Sneak Attack in play. In that situation revoker would have been a better draw.

Did you liked sigarda MD? Linvala could be a better choice?

[HoneyT]

the best part: It's oracle text no longer says you've got to give the creature back to your opponent once the game is over. Maximum profit! :cool:

^ this ^

[lavafrogg]

I was watching the SCG stream for a little bit this weekend and I got to see the Phillips vs Debrun(?) maverick mirror match...who wound up winning the match? It seemed that Phillips just lucked his way into the games but Deburn(?) was playing his little heart out.

Are maverick mirrors always so swingy? OMG an active Mom! Jitte! Pridemage! Knight! OOZE!!!!! it was fun to watch...

[Codename55]

Did you liked sigarda MD? Linvala could be a better choice?

I was really afraid of the mirror so I would've definitely played Linvala if I had one :) She's hard to come by around here for some reason. However I was the only Maverick player in the tournament and I didn't have to face any elves so it didn't matter.

Sigarda did absolutely nothing in the whole tournament, I think I saw her just once and it was a completely irrelevant draw. I play her because I heard she is good vs mirror, also there is a pox and nic fit decks in my local meta and she is decent against both (not as good vs pox as it sounds because 5 mana is a tall order, but still ok and automatic win if she resolves).

[Fizban]

I was really afraid of the mirror so I would've definitely played Linvala if I had one :) She's hard to come by around here for some reason. However I was the only Maverick player in the tournament and I didn't have to face any elves so it didn't matter.

Sigarda did absolutely nothing in the whole tournament, I think I saw her just once and it was a completely irrelevant draw. I play her because I heard she is good vs mirror, also there is a pox and nic fit decks in my local meta and she is decent against both (not as good vs pox as it sounds because 5 mana is a tall order, but still ok and automatic win if she resolves).

I haven't got Linvala as well, I had her but traded her (and 2 other angels) for my second Ooze :)
I've been playing Sigarda in testing and she seems very good in the grindy matches like Nic fit and the mirror but she's also an extra out to Emrakul (if you have maze) or she gives us that little extra time you need to find karakas.

I was wondering what u guys board vs. UW stoneblade? I've been using Choke, Life from the Loam, Revoker and sometimes Stony Silence but it's still a hard matchup, any advice?

[TarmoX]

Is Sublime Archangel worth testing vs aggro match up in place of Linvala??? Opinion???

[maktus]

I haven't got Linvala as well, I had her but traded her (and 2 other angels) for my second Ooze :)
I've been playing Sigarda in testing and she seems very good in the grindy matches like Nic fit and the mirror but she's also an extra out to Emrakul (if you have maze) or she gives us that little extra time you need to find karakas.

I was wondering what u guys board vs. UW stoneblade? I've been using Choke, Life from the Loam, Revoker and sometimes Stony Silence but it's still a hard matchup, any advice?

If you use stoneforge play manriki-gusari, or use Tower of the Magistrate.

[Asthereal]

Is Sublime Archangel worth testing vs aggro match up in place of Linvala??? Opinion???

Worth testing? Yes, definitely.
Do I expect it to be awesomely brilliant? No, definitely not.
Still, it has a very nice effect that could end teh game quickly.

The new Ajani also needs testing.
Great potential, though perhaps not necessarily an improvement to current builds.

Btw, new stuff+ideas always need some testing, if you would like to not be the last to find out something is very good. I personally have very little time to test, but if I would have the time, I'd be testing Ajani right now. That guy looks to have the greatest potential for Mav. A 4 mana creature looks less urgent. One can always play Elspeth in that slot and win game after game because of her. Bad synergy with Thalia and Teeg though...

[Einherjer]

Please stop suggesting nontutorable 1ofs that should improve special MUs. All these white flashy Angels or whatever are not worth putting in, unless you put a sufficent amount of them in, which hardly any1 does.
Ajani is different. Ajani is not there for special MUs, it's mostly a new addition to the deck itself, making it more aggresive and explosive. Do we need this? I honestly doubt it. Ive been doing some testing with the list I posted earlier that week and I am pretty happy with it. One of the most stable decks I've been playing with latley. It's well geared for pretty much every MUs but SneakAttack, but I expect Griselmator to beat it most consitently, as a conclusion to it, it's better to be geared for Griselmator.
I would really suggest you guys to play a stock list (again) and leave all these flashy cool looking not tutorable creatures.

Greetings

[Fizban]

Please stop suggesting nontutorable 1ofs that should improve special MUs. All these white flashy Angels or whatever are not worth putting in, unless you put a sufficent amount of them in, which hardly any1 does.
Ajani is different. Ajani is not there for special MUs, it's mostly a new addition to the deck itself, making it more aggresive and explosive. Do we need this? I honestly doubt it. Ive been doing some testing with the list I posted earlier that week and I am pretty happy with it. One of the most stable decks I've been playing with latley. It's well geared for pretty much every MUs but SneakAttack, but I expect Griselmator to beat it most consitently, as a conclusion to it, it's better to be geared for Griselmator.
I would really suggest you guys to play a stock list (again) and leave all these flashy cool looking not tutorable creatures.

Greetings

They're tutorable if you're using fauna shaman...

[_Fortune_]

What are your feelings on Sylvan Library? I get that it's supposed to help the control matchup, but would those slots be better filled with planeswalkers or more threats?

I see a lot of people run 1-2 of them and with no way to tutor for them, they always stick out as the first cuts. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

Thanks in advance.

[Water_Wizard]

Sylvan Library is card advantage. Outside of Horizon Canopy, it's this deck's only way to draw extra cards. It also provides a filtering effect, especially with fetch lands, GSZ or Fauna Shaman.

As you stated, Sylvan Library is for the control match to gain card advantage and to draw more threats. But it is also for the combo match to find our lock pieces. Against control and combo match ups, you should be paying life to draw extra cards off of Sylvan Library.

The only place Library is really bad is in the Aggro match-ups. The match-ups where they want to get you from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible. Even then, it may be worth it for the filtering. However, you probably don't want to pay 4 life very often.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Prox a deck with a slow clock or test the mirror. Sylvan Library with one of the gems in this deck. Every STP on a big creature equals in a free card. Jitte trnasforms into card drawing (if theres nothing better to do ;) ). They are pretty awesome most of the time, even more if your opponent is on blue.

[Einherjer]

... even more if your opponent is on blue.--> especially if he's on blue. Sylvan Library is good vs all kinds of decks, all that do not want to race you right away. If Canadian Threshold isn't having the Delver+Burn hand you can use the draw 2/3 for brutal cardadvantage too. The other things have already been mentioned. Other than being good vs Blue it's always some kind of a mirrorbreaker too, it's pretty much everything the deck lacks --> library manipulation, cardadvantage....


@Fizban: Fauna Shaman...urgh... I forgot people are playing this slow piece of.... jam! Excuse me then. All my statements have the exception that they are not aimed at the Fauna Shaman builds.

Greetings

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

2x Sylvan Library should be a minimum if you want to actually win games consistently. I notice this thing where tournament winning reports, even if they're running only one Library, always include lots of games where said Library was drawn. Maybe more people would win tournaments with the deck if they played more.


Please stop suggesting nontutorable 1ofs that should improve special MUs.

This should be in the site banner.

Running lucky one ofs is miserable deck building.



They're tutorable if you're using fauna shaman...

GSZing for a Fauna Shaman to get get a Linvala is miserably slow.

Also just cut those two slots for Parallax Wave, it's just as good in the mirror and way better against Reanimator/Sneak and Show.

[seanpark]

Also just cut those two slots for Parallax Wave, it's just as good in the mirror and way better against Reanimator/Sneak and Show.

Stop telling people about good cards like Parallax Wave.

OT: How strong is the Loyal Retainers combo in the deck with Fauna Shaman? I was thinking about playing Ben Stark's list with the change of:
-1 Thalia
-1 Pridemage

+1 Loyal Retainers
+1 Elesh Norn

[Asthereal]

Sylvan Library is brilliant. Definite 2-of. The mirror is often won by the player who could stick his Library, and control decks just die to it. I once outdrew (and then beat) my opponent who had Jace 2.0 on the table for two turns already.

I personally really dislike the Retainers idea. Both cards in the combo are terrible on their own, and Fauna Shaman must connect to get it working. Last time I checked, Fauna Shaman was the first dude to die from random removal my opponents had.

[door]

I personally really dislike the Retainers idea. Both cards in the combo are terrible on their own, and Fauna Shaman must connect to get it working. Last time I checked, Fauna Shaman was the first dude to die from random removal my opponents had.

Wrong. Only retainers is bad on its own. Elesh Norn is not difficult to cast in mid-game having a couple of manadorks or Gaea's Cradle. And it instantly wins the "already lost" games against all kinds of aggro decks.
As to Fauna Shaman, you can say the same about every other creature in your deck. Yes, the creatures die to removal, but is it new? The thing is, that they usually need to kill your mother of runes/thalia/kotr/ooze/gaddock, depending on what you are playing against. Then you land fauna shaman and search for the most troublesome creature for your opponent. Usually this is the way you win with shaman. They kill what is dangerous for them, you find another one with shaman. Ok, if they have a fistful of removal, they just kill every creature, but that's the game.
Also sylvan library is even more important if you are playing with shaman, cause you need extra creatures to utilize. 2 is the quantity.

[Asthereal]

It's impossible for me to be wrong if I mention that I personally really dislike something, but I understand your argument. Drop the nasty stuff, they kill it, then land Shaman and hope it sticks.

About Elesh Norn being good without Shaman and Retainers: I disagree here. I stopped playing Batterskull a very long time ago, despite everyone back then insisting I should play it, because it would just sit in my hand while I was stuck on 4 land. Swords and Jittes were just better. This counts even more for a CMC 7 dude. No Cradle or 7 mana-makers and it just sits there in your hand sucking big time.

But let's break up the meta for a sec, because stuff is only as good as it's opposition let's it be. In my meta here in The Netherlands, we mostly see RUG Thresh, Sneak+Show, UW/EsperBlade, Stormcombo, Maverick. Other decks that see play are Reanimator, BUG Control, Burn, Dredge and some Zoo. The rest really sees almost no play at all.

Retainers+Elesh is good against:
- Mirror (little removal, sweeps the board nicely)
- UW/EsperBlade (time to get to 7 mana - does get Jace-bounced though)
- BUG Control (same as StoneBlade)
- Dredge, if you have the time to set it up

Bad against:
- RUG TempoThresh (you NEVER reach 7 mana, Shaman just dies)
- Storm (WAY too slow)
- Sneak&Show (same)
- Burn (same)
- Reanimator (same)

Zoo I don't really know. You usually die before getting to 7 mana, and they have lots of removal for the Shaman, but if Elesh gets there it's an auto-win. Also I haven't tested this matchup. Ever. People who like Zoo tend to play Mav now, it seems. Me including by the way. :)

What does your analysis look like?

[door]

Retainers+Elesh is good against:
- Mirror (little removal, sweeps the board nicely)
- UW/EsperBlade (time to get to 7 mana - does get Jace-bounced though)
- BUG Control (same as StoneBlade)
- Dredge, if you have the time to set it up

Bad against:
- RUG TempoThresh (you NEVER reach 7 mana, Shaman just dies)
- Storm (WAY too slow)
- Sneak&Show (same)
- Burn (same)
- Reanimator (same)

Zoo I don't really know. You usually die before getting to 7 mana, and they have lots of removal for the Shaman, but if Elesh gets there it's an auto-win. Also I haven't tested this matchup. Ever. People who like Zoo tend to play Mav now, it seems. Me including by the way. :)

What does your analysis look like?

I agree with that. But I have to add the following:
In my experience the good match ups without retainer+elesh package are:
- UW/EsperBlade
- BUG variations
- RUG
- merfolk
- affinity
the 50/50 are:
- mirror
- zoo
- dredge
- Sneak&Show
the negatives:
- nic-fit/reccuring nightmare
- tes/ant/belcher
- reanimator
- burn/ u/r delver
- elves

After including elesh norn package the match up table looks like this:
Good:
- UW/EsperBlade
- BUG variations
- RUG
- merfolk
- affinity
- mirror
- zoo
- nic-fit/reccuring nightmare
50/50:
- dredge
- Sneak&Show
negative:
- tes/ant/belcher
- reanimator
- burn/ u/r delver
- elves

As you can see the good match ups remain there, but there are less bad and average match ups. Also merfolks and affinity become even more easy to beat. Though rug is a lit bit harder than it was because of 2 weak cards (elesh+retainer) in the first game, but the match up is still good. Against most of the bad match ups that remain bad there is no difference, bacause you can't really beat elves, reanimator and storm combo without sb. Burn and u/r burn for me was always about the number of mystics and proper equipment package. For those with high luck you can steal games against elves and dredge if you live until turn 4 in 1st game.

This works for an average metagame with high amount of uw/esper, rug and maverik, what I believe will be the case at GP Ghent.

[Asthereal]

I have pretty horrible experiences with the Affinity matchup.
Lost without ever having a chance.
How come you rate that a good matchup?

By your calculation we improve these matchups:
- Zoo
- Nic Fit
- The Mirror
- Merfolk
At the expense of sometimes having dead cards, thus worsening your average game.

And Zoo and Merfolk I rarely encounter these days. Nic Fit to me looks more like a flavour of the week than a serious contenter in the long run. The interesting thing is the improvement of the mirror. My question stands: is this really worth it? Let alone investing $100+ on a Retainer...

[door]

I have pretty horrible experiences with the Affinity matchup.
Lost without ever having a chance.
How come you rate that a good matchup?

By your calculation we improve these matchups:
- Zoo
- Nic Fit
- The Mirror
- Merfolk
At the expense of sometimes having dead cards, thus worsening your average game.

And Zoo and Merfolk I rarely encounter these days. Nic Fit to me looks more like a flavour of the week than a serious contenter in the long run. The interesting thing is the improvement of the mirror. My question stands: is this really worth it? Let alone investing $100+ on a Retainer...

These are the decks I often encounter in local tournaments. Lots of them are not popular on the big scene, but there's always some % you can meet some guy with nic fit during first rounds with no byes.
About affinity I can't really tell you how. I just don't remember me loosing to them. Perhaps that's because of the Peacekeeper in sb.
Merfolk is getting more and more popular with the new lords. The good news are that the lords do not help them with maverik.
On your last question: yes it is. Maverik is still tier1. After a uw/esper/rug top8 and no single sneak attack in top32 at gp Atlanta people will run maverik even more. I played mirror 4 or 5 times at BoM 2012 and didn't loose a game. Always but once I won with Elesh Norn. Once with Linvala after sb.

[Asthereal]

You could also focus more on getting Elesh Norn cast.
I'm thinking about a list that would not use Retainers, but just hardcast that dude.
Doesn't that sound like a better plan then using an edgy combo?
Haven't tested it yet though, I'm at work right now. :tongue:

[door]

You could also focus more on getting Elesh Norn cast.
I'm thinking about a list that would not use Retainers, but just hardcast that dude.
Doesn't that sound like a better plan then using an edgy combo?
Haven't tested it yet though, I'm at work right now. :tongue:

Yes, often it is just hardcasted, especially when you need to play around g/y hate. You could try playing crop rotation for that, which will also improve reanimator/sneak show m/u. But without the ability to cheat it into play on turn 4, I'm not sure if it's worth. Perhaps playing Linvala in the main deck would be a better solution?

[ScatmanX]

Yes, often it is just hardcasted, especially when you need to play around g/y hate. You could try playing crop rotation for that, which will also improve reanimator/sneak show m/u. But without the ability to cheat it into play on turn 4, I'm not sure if it's worth. Perhaps playing Linvala in the main deck would be a better solution?
Is your list still the same from the on posted here, post #2552 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-DTB-GW-x-Maverick&p=644231&viewfull=1#post644231)?
If not, what were the changes?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I have pretty horrible experiences with the Affinity matchup.
Lost without ever having a chance.
How come you rate that a good matchup?

Maze of Ith alone makes it a very good matchup.


Yes, often it is just hardcasted, especially when you need to play around g/y hate. You could try playing crop rotation for that, which will also improve reanimator/sneak show m/u. But without the ability to cheat it into play on turn 4, I'm not sure if it's worth. Perhaps playing Linvala in the main deck would be a better solution?

Paying four or seven (!!!) mana for a creature that can be StP'd is miserable. Seriously, people, try Parallax Wave, it does everything you would possibly want these cards for and much more.

It's like I'm taking crazy pills that cause me to vividly hallucinate that people are suggesting hard casting seven mana spells in Legacy that don't immediately win the game against the field.

[Hopo]

It's like I'm taking crazy pills that cause me to vividly hallucinate that people are suggesting hard casting seven mana spells in Legacy that don't immediately win the game against the field.

Maybe you just need to put things in perspective instead of making a huge drama out of it. You are talking about a tutorable combo piece in a deck that is perfectly capable of hardcasting it in the late game. Big deal. That said, I believe Iona should be your legendary monster of choice here if you insist on playing Retainers. GW has little problems with creature decks in general. There was a time when Elesh Norn was really good, I'm just not so sure about present day. There are tons of tools to fight the mirror, most of them cheaper than 7 mana. Parallax Wave, even. I'd rather play Wing Shards, though, for them being cheaper and immune to Mother of Runes.

[rxavage]

Maze of Ith alone makes it a very good matchup.



Paying four or seven (!!!) mana for a creature that can be StP'd is miserable. Seriously, people, try Parallax Wave, it does everything you would possibly want these cards for and much more.

It's like I'm taking crazy pills that cause me to vividly hallucinate that people are suggesting hard casting seven mana spells in Legacy that don't immediately win the game against the field.



I play Sneakshow and can say that IBA is right P-wave sucks to play against. I've only come across a single Mav player running P-wave and we tested the matchup with good results for Mav. I always ask myself why no one else runs the card, but hey I'm not complaining keep playing bad cards and giving me free wins.

[door]

Is your list still the same from the on posted here, post #2552 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-DTB-GW-x-Maverick&p=644231&viewfull=1#post644231)?
If not, what were the changes?

I changed my board slightly since I havn't seen any storm-combo recently. Also eladamri's call >> wordly tutor in most of the situations (except playing against discard-heavy decks and storm). SFM went away, as it doesn't do enough today. I put second Sylvan Library instead which proved to be better (also thanks to Infectious for the idea).

"Surviving maverik"

61 cards in maindeck, 22 lands incl. Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Fauna Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Lightning Greaves

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Peacekeeper
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Bojuka Bog

There are 2 floating slots, which I adjust according to metagame. Usually it is something against burn and a second canonist or SFI or second ensn bridge or peacekeeper or extra removal or just mindbreak traps :wink:

[Deckerator]

What experiences have you done with Lightning Greaves.
Is it better than a second Jitte?
The 2x Sylvan libraries are for supporting the fauna shaman?

[door]

What experiences have you done with Lightning Greaves.
Is it better than a second Jitte?
The 2x Sylvan libraries are for supporting the fauna shaman?


Lightning Greaves allowed to save my creatures in critical situations several times, 4 mother of runes is not enough sometimes.
In more details: Lightning Greaves is not for fun. Gaddock Teeg or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben resolved does not mean that you already won against combo; Elesh Norn without protection can catch STP; sometimes it's just crucial to make maximum damage in one turn with a hasty creature; KOTR activation the turn it comes into play can also change the board situation. Just equipping your Hierarch means making your manabase concrete, the key against RUG and Mirror.
I see a lot of people test Sylvan Safekeeper and other cards as the 5th Mother of Runes, cause so much times you god damn need it. Lots of times the boots are just better, being uncounterable with a mystic and giving haste.

I don't need a second jitte since I play Mystics.

Sylvan Library doesn't just feed Fauna Shaman. I found that I don't want to side out it against any deck, even burn. You just don't need to draw extras always. Moreover, it's an extra filtering of some cards which are not always good in my deck, like Elesh Norn/Reatainers, equipments, etc.

[xiaocho]

one question:

since terminus' miracle ability is a triggered ability that can be stifled, is dread return's flashback ability an activated ability that can be prevented with phyrexian revoker naming the aforementioned card?

[HoneyT]

No it's not an activated ability. Flashback is simply being cast from the graveyard. Miracle is triggered when it's revealed as the first card drawn for the turn, that's why it can be stifled.

[matunos]

A couple of pages back, people were talking about Sigarda. If you're considering Sigarda mostly for the anti-sacrifice ability, there is Tajuru Preserver. Much smaller body, but much easier to cast/GSZ.

[Deckerator]

I wanna go on a tournament next week but im not really sure about my sideboard:
Im playing a Fauna shaman, Green sun toolbox. With Loyal Retainers Combo
My meta is the following: 1 elves player, 2-3 High Tide, some U/W miracle, a lot of RUG/UR-Delver, 1 Merfolk, a lot of maverick versions, 2x Dredge players, 1x BUG player

How would you make your sideboard in this meta?
I thought about the following:
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
3x Path to Exile
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2x Tormods Crypt
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

[lavafrogg]

As a rock player I am really glad you are wasting your deck space to make yourself more vulnerable to graveyard hate and an active ooze. We appreciate you lowering your decks consistency and giving us other GSZ decks a chance to win some games.

[Deckerator]

yeah maybe i am bit more vulnerable to graveyard hate. But on the otherside when Elesh comes on the table against creature decks. The game is often over for my opponent.
Therefore i think it is okay to be a little bit more vulnerable against graveyard decks. The most important thing is to sword the Ooze. Otherwise it will often make your "big" Knights to little kids. Against other decks i would swap Elesh with Iona

[Fizban]

A couple of pages back, people were talking about Sigarda. If you're considering Sigarda mostly for the anti-sacrifice ability, there is Tajuru Preserver. Much smaller body, but much easier to cast/GSZ.

Sigarda is good because she's a 5/5 hexproof flyer, the anti-sacrifice ability is relevant but not the main reason I choose to play Sigarda. I did have the preserver in my board a while ago (2 pox in the meta) but the angel is much better as she's a serious clock.

[door]

I wanna go on a tournament next week but im not really sure about my sideboard:
Im playing a Fauna shaman, Green sun toolbox. With Loyal Retainers Combo
My meta is the following: 1 elves player, 2-3 High Tide, some U/W miracle, a lot of RUG/UR-Delver, 1 Merfolk, a lot of maverick versions, 2x Dredge players, 1x BUG player

How would you make your sideboard in this meta?
I thought about the following:
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
3x Path to Exile
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2x Tormods Crypt
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

You don't really need 2x Linvala, 1 is enough since you're already with Elesh Norn. I would play sigarda only in a pox-heavy metagame, otherwise it is an expensive flyer that doesn't help you in problematic situations. I'd recommend running an extra Gaddock teeg, since it's good against everything except mirror in your meta. Iona makes sence only against High Tide. Also surgical extractions are better than crypts against tide.

[Deckerator]

Then I should cut Sigarda and tormods crypt? and add a second teeg for the sideboard and surgicals? But are surgicals good enough against dredge? Because last time i played Surgicals and bojuka bog and last to dredge

My actual list:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Loyal Retainers
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
1 Peacekeeper

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Umezawa's Jitte


Any comments on the list are welcomed.
I thought about adding Lightning Greaves because door had a really good argument. But i have no space.
Furthermore would it be good to add Sylvan Library and/or Stoneforge Mystic?
Comments on Griselbrand: I add him because of my second loyal Retainers. I like him because of his lifelink, flying and draw 7. he can grow really big with exalted.

[Thorondor]

I don't see why you need 3 fauna shaman, 2 loyal retainers, elesh norn and griselbrand, this is more a combo deck than a maverick deck.
If I would run a maverick list it would look like ben starks from the GP:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8622&iddeck=62912

looking at your deck I would cut -1 retainers, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Fauna Shaman and add +2 Sylvan library and +1 Stoneforge, Thalia or Pridemage.

[door]

Then I should cut Sigarda and tormods crypt? and add a second teeg for the sideboard and surgicals? But are surgicals good enough against dredge? Because last time i played Surgicals and bojuka bog and last to dredge

My actual list:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Loyal Retainers
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
1 Peacekeeper

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Umezawa's Jitte


Any comments on the list are welcomed.
I thought about adding Lightning Greaves because door had a really good argument. But i have no space.
Furthermore would it be good to add Sylvan Library and/or Stoneforge Mystic?
Comments on Griselbrand: I add him because of my second loyal Retainers. I like him because of his lifelink, flying and draw 7. he can grow really big with exalted.

OMG, this list looks monstrous! I think you want too much from the deck. I would recommend following the major maverik's plan than adding new combos into the deck. Griselbrand doesn't belong here, as you cannot reliably fast cheat it into the battlefield as Sneak'n Show or Reanimator do. Also Grisel unlike Elesh Norn doesn't win in the mirror. He doesn't sweep the board, nor can you cast it from your hand. Iona on the other hand may be in the sb if you like it. I'd enjoy sneaking it against high tide :laugh:

I'd recommend leaving 1 loyal, 1 elesh and 3 shamans. Move peacekeeper into sideboard. In the maindeck he's relevant only in sneak'n show-heavy metagame. Lightning greaves is recommended to play with mystics, cause you need to be able to find it. But usually playing mystics slows you down a bit. So it depends on your style of playing. 1-2 Sylvans are always recommended.
Also I'd suggest throwing away caverns and adding the 4th wasteland. If you feel problems with dredge, add 3rd surgical and/or faerie macabre in the board. General strategy is to find as soon as possible scavenging ooze and gaddock teeg or elesh norn in the first game. You can slow them down by fetching a dryad arbor to block some zombies to remove the bridges. Also use counters from jitte to kill your own creatures for removing bridges when necessary. But prey not to be killed during first 2-3 turns. After sb it's usually easy if you keep hand with some g/y hate.

[Deckerator]

Ouh I'm really sad. No one likes my Griselbrand/Loyal Retainers Combo. :tongue:
That means:
-1 Peacekeeper (move to the sideboard)
-1 Griselbrand
-1 Loyal Retainers
+2 Sylvan library

thanks for all this good advices.
More ideas to my deck are welcomed.
How would the sideboard look good?

sideboard:
-1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

[arcannys]

-1 Peacekeeper (move to the sideboard)


?

[Thorondor]

it is always hard to comment on sideboard, it depends on your meta or whatever you fear most.

lot of maverick players did try gut shot, you could do for example -2 path -1 choke/etersworn +3 gut shot.

[xiaocho]

well I still play sigarda in my 75's but whatever.

What im interested in is what ur top 5 most hated cards are.

I'm asking for a short explanation and - although I know that ur answers might differentiate strongly depending on the meta and the most faced cards - I'm asking for ur subjective opinion.

The cards that I generally hate the most are:

top: 1. Humility/Moat
2. Terminus
3. Engineered Explosives, Perish, Wrath
4. Submerge
5. Linvala (having to face her)

[Koby]

Interestingly enough.... Gaddock Teeg solves many of those problems. Just protect him with Mother of Runes against the UW decks.

[xiaocho]

I know. I'm already running 1 mainboard and one in my sideboard. Apart from Perish and Linvala all those problems are solved by teeg.

Aren't u sometimes emotional and afraid of facing a card (although there is no reason to fear this card more than any other hatecard)?

[Nutox]

The card I hate seeing the most is Sulfur Elemental out of the RUG sideboard, followed by Forked Bolt. Also, seeing Submerge from the SB of Intuition Elves is a serious blow against the Ethersworn Canonist plan vs. them, because even if you play around it, you'll lose to the elven aggro swarm because you can't drop SFM->Jitte or turn your fetches into that crucial third land drop while also holding off the Glimpse combo.

The presence of RUG Tempo restricts the blind build of the deck. I'd love to run some maindeck Mindcensors, but the 1 toughness just leads to an unacceptable number of x-for-1s. Even Thalia is questionable, as M@verick has pointed out above. She's horrible on the draw vs. RUG. (And isn't so hot vs. Miracle Control because it slows you down right into a Terminus.) I've been experimenting with numbers of Crop Rotations, Weathered Wayfarers (I still run GSZ), Life from the Loams, 1x Sylvan Safekeeper and maindeck Toolbox lands (Bog, Maze) in the Thalia/Fauna Shaman slots. Even though getting Rotation countered still sucks, pushing the abuse of the land toolbox gives the deck some punch. It's a surprisingly effective bridge to midgame Knight beats vs. creature combo decks. It's not perfect, but the toolbox leverages slow draws on combo's part to let Maverick set up the beatdown clock, while maintaining generic utility vs. random decks better than the maindeck choices popular now, and with all CMC <= 2, isn't painfully slow. (People have fits deciding to let me untap with Wayfarer vs. holding removal for Knight.) Drawing utility lands leads to more mulligans, but oh well. I feel it just puts Maverick back on par with most other decks in the mulligan department. Also, Running LftL without Cycle Lands is a liability when opponents are already hating the GY to shrink Knight, and this deck is slow enough without come-into-play-tapped lands. I've cut Cradle for a third Horizon Canopy to mitigate this.

Problem is, the land toolbox is ANOTHER horrible concept vs. RUG. I'm considering going back to some number of Tarmogoyf in my Lands Toolbox build just to blank their Goyfs and Geese while I deal with Delver. Path to Exile is a suboptimal sideboard card in matches you'd bring it in other than RUG, I think, because most of the decks you need it against usually run a ton of basics, are faster than Maverick, and will beat you up with the land drop. All I can say is, cast it during their upkeep if you don't see Steppe Lynx.

Consistency really is Maverick's strength. It's a midrange aggro deck, and topdecking a useless card in turns 5-8 is crushing to a typical game state with this deck in my experience. With only four removal spells, we'd rather be winning here than going attrition war and praying to untap with alpha strikes. However, Sylvan Library is a house, play two. It typically reads "Pay 8 life, win the game." I leave it in vs. RUG if my sideboard permits, and if Jitte gets going, it's great.

****
Get used to the little tricks this deck can do, Scryb Ranger shenanigans, stuff like Horizon Canopy during the upkeep under a Sylvan Library (Pick 2 of 4), Dryad Arbor/fetchland/Ranger combat interactions, thinking multiple turns ahead with combat math, resolving a Jitte (Jitte is a broken card) before trying to bust this deck open with power cards. I think Maverick is a really unique deck. It's almost like it has a perfect opening of 5-8 slots in the main deck where you must pick cards appropriate to the tournament you're going to play in that day, 5-8 slots that are almost independent of the rest of a really strong deck, if you stick to normal Legacy deckbuilding wisdom anyway.

I encourage people to re-read the OP of this thread any time they get frustrated trying to build the Perfect Maverick in a vacuum-meta. It's very informative and serves well to remind you that this deck is very flexible, and desperately needs to be metagamed when picking your final 75.
*****

The new Ajani? Honestly, if I'm going to run support cards aren't named Elspeth, Knight-Errant to give my dudes evasion/bigger clock (i.e. cards that don't change board position), and don't want to rely on Mom for that role, really, I'd rather just play a copy or two of Berserk and run it out during the alpha-strike. At least it doubles as janky spot removal in a pinch (synergy with Maze of Ith here)

As another windy aside, one of my favorite matchups playing Maverick is non-LED dredge decks. Maybe I'm really lucky drawing Ooze/Teeg/Bog and SB hate cards in my openers, but people walk into this matchup expecting to do unfair things against your midrange deck wind up getting hosed every time they don't have the God Hand. I feel absolutely no need to run Surgical Extraction for Dredge. However, it's an argument vs. Reanimator in Thalia/Non-Thalia builds going against Purify the Grave, which is slower but packs a lot of resilience vs. combo protection. Faerie Macabre is probably the best idea. It's fast like Surgical, costs nothing extra under Thalia, and dodges the counter-magic part of combo-protection (the other being discard) from Reanimator. I've seen too much of Pithing Needle naming Tormod's Crypt out of Reanimator to spend SB slots on Crypt. Beating dredge is easy, you just have to know how the deck works.

P.S.: Gaddock Teeg for Maverick MVP!

P.P.S.: Gaea's Cradle remains the most frustrating card in the core deck.

[Fizban]

I don't like playing against Perish especially in Esper Blade, it's cheap enough to block the fast aggro plan and it will avoid the wasting game. We don't have any answer to it (as far as I know) except for not overextending.

[Asthereal]

Gaea's Cradle remains the most frustrating card in the core deck.

So don't play it. Nothing wrong with basic Forest or additional fetchland.

Btw if you have issues beating EsperBlade, I suggest more Elspeths. One main and two more in the sideboard should do the trick. StoneBlade has a LOT of issues beating the old girl. :)

[arcannys]

perish is no as good of an answer as virtue's ruin is.
Just play gaddock and mom, and keep karakas untapped all the time and you should be fine.
PD: playing less than 2 karakas right now is wrong.
PD2: playing less than 2 planeswalkers in the 75 is also wrong (i suggest 1 elspeth main, and 1 garruk if maverick is popular, and 1 extra garruk/elspeth in the board)

[door]

PD2: playing less than 2 planeswalkers in the 75 is also wrong (i suggest 1 elspeth main, and 1 garruk if maverick is popular, and 1 extra garruk/elspeth in the board)

why? I always felt that walkers are an overkill versus control match ups. Also Linvala is way better in the mirror and damages other decks as well.

[RKPW]

@Fizban
I've been testing Dauntless Escort as a way to beat a perish/wrath or other sweepers. Normally Gaddock Teeg stops most of them. Damnation, Wrath, Massacre. But can't stop perish or virtues ruin. This little dude even stops pernicious deed.

also, 3/3 gsz'able body isn't bad either.

also, is Eternal Witness worth a spot as a one of in this deck? Worth buying back an STP or a key piece of equipment? i've been using it in my list.

[arcannys]

why? I always felt that walkers are an overkill versus control match ups. Also Linvala is way better in the mirror and damages other decks as well.

Control decks are packing terminus right now, aside from the eventual BUG deck with deed, which makes planeswalkers a rlly good asset against those type of decks. Not to mention most black decks are using perish/ruin out of the board so you cannot rely entierly on your gaddock teegs.
Linvala will never be better than a planeswalker in the mirror match, since most lists are packing 2 karakas maindeck aside from STP...
Right now (and probably what im gonna be running in the GP) im running 1 elspeth, 1 linvala and 1 thrun MD and an extra garruk in the board for control MU and the mirror match.

[Fizban]

@Fizban
I've been testing Dauntless Escort as a way to beat a perish/wrath or other sweepers. Normally Gaddock Teeg stops most of them. Damnation, Wrath, Massacre. But can't stop perish or virtues ruin. This little dude even stops pernicious deed.

also, 3/3 gsz'able body isn't bad either.

also, is Eternal Witness worth a spot as a one of in this deck? Worth buying back an STP or a key piece of equipment? i've been using it in my list.

Yeah, that's a nice answer... I think I'll get one tomorrow and try it out immediately! Thanks!

Witness is great (and human too) but I for one had to cut some things for some speed, and witness is generally slow. If I'm packing SoLaS I'll be sure to include her again though ;)

Greetz

[sdematt]

I tried out and suggested Dauntless Escort ages ago, great to see someone else come back to it :)

-Matt

[xiaocho]

one question about terminus:


if the opponent draws terminus, I have thalia and he has one mana only. Can he cast terminus after placing another mana from his hand?

My understanding says that once the miracle card has been drawn the miracle effect goes on the stack and u have to pay the costs immediately (althought its possible to crack fetchlands as a response).

[Esper3k]

one question about terminus:


if the opponent draws terminus, I have thalia and he has one mana only. Can he cast terminus after placing another mana from his hand?

My understanding says that once the miracle card has been drawn the miracle effect goes on the stack and u have to pay the costs immediately (althought its possible to crack fetchlands as a response).

Yes, the triggered ability for Miracles goes on the stack when they draw (and reveal) the card. They have to pay for it when the trigger resolves otherwise they'll have to cast the card normally.

[zulander]

one question about terminus:


if the opponent draws terminus, I have thalia and he has one mana only. Can he cast terminus after placing another mana from his hand?

My understanding says that once the miracle card has been drawn the miracle effect goes on the stack and u have to pay the costs immediately (althought its possible to crack fetchlands as a response).

He can't play lands when something's on the stack. You're right.

[Deckerator]

In my meta there is a lot of G/W.
Is it a good idea to sideboard NO package? Or is this too slow?
I thought about sideboarding 3x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus.
Maybe it helps against other non blue decks to win the match fast.
What are your comments about it?

[Hencules]

Also, Maverick didn't seem to do so well at the last SCG open. Only one list in the top 32, and not a single one in the top 16. Has Maverick been doing well at all lately?

Perhaps we'll see at the GP in Ghent.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Seems completely reasonable, but not really necessary.

Play 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Sword of Light and Shadow and Elspeth+Garruk somewhere in your 75, Sideboard Gutshots alongside Path to Exile is good and has a broader application.

I do like No Prog, but not really as a sideboard plan. Just exercise the mirror, know your role and you will eventually win more Mirrormatches than you lose.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Flavour of the month probably. It's still putting up good results, which are not always up on TC decks and the like.

[Deckerator]

If i have Progenitus drawn and in my hand. How can i get
him back into the library to catch him with Natur Order?

[Tammit67]

If i have Progenitus drawn and in my hand. How can i get
him back into the library to catch him with Natur Order?

Fauna shaman, getting hit with a sword of feast + famine, discard at end of turn

[arcannys]

Fauna shaman, getting hit with a sword of feast + famine, discard at end of turn
Exactly, absolutely situational, which makes NO package an absolute garbage in this deck.

[KobeBryan]

with the reemergence of merfolk, do you guys think its a good idea to play the PFM route?

Helps bring in REBs and PFs.

[maurobad2k4]

with the reemergence of merfolk, do you guys think its a good idea to play the PFM route?

Helps bring in REBs and PFs.

That`s exactly what I`m doing right now...and as a bonus the Elves and Goblins matchup gets better.

[sdematt]

If you're scared of Merfolk, run 2 Scryb Ranger and maybe a Llawan or two in the board if you're running Fauna Shaman.



-Matt

[dsck]

Maverick, scared of Merfolk?

.
.
.

[Koby]

Maverick, scared of Merfolk?

.
.
.

Iknorite?

Board into more removal. Don't let Submerge ruin your day. Sylvan Safekeeper FTW. (against any Blue tempo really)

[M@verick]

hey guys
I went to LCL first time yesterday. There were 93 people. I played the same main, and changed into more graveyared hate post sideboard: 3 surgical, 2 tormods.

The results were:

R1: merfolks 2-0
R2: U-R delver 2-1
R3: Reanimator 2-1
R4: Canadian agro 1-2
R5: goblins 2-1
R6: blade 2-0
R7: GW 2-0 (Marc Duran)
Top8: Canadian 1-2

It was a bit sad losing 2 times against a good MU like RUG. I was lucky all day, but very unlucky in top8

[sdematt]

Oh, I know you shouldn't be, but assuming one was, for some strange reason....

-Matt

[Asthereal]

Merfolk could still be rather dangerous.
If they go Lord Lord Lord Lord they'll outrun you every time.

But in general Maverick should have the edge because of:
- Better creatures
- Nasty equipment
- More and better removal
- Stable mana base
- No Islands, so no unblockable weenies

Additional removal from the board should be enough.
Just play basic lands, remove Lords, protect you big dudes and let Jitte finish it.
Oh and do mulligan away slow hands with Horizon Canopy as main mana source!

[.:saturno:.]

jitte is the only equip in ur 75, unless do u want play SFM shell?! i do not think.
if merfolk became tier 1 deck, can be a good idea, but not now!

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Jitte, Scryb Ranger, KotR and most noteably Mother of Runes alongside a nonblue mana base give them headaches. Just bait with the irrelevant stuff and resolve the real threats. Can't remember a game i lost against Merfolk. Be careful anyways, Perish can be a huge blowout.

[Water_Wizard]

Merfolk could still be rather dangerous.
If they go Lord Lord Lord Lord they'll outrun you every time.

But in general Maverick should have the edge because of:
- Better creatures
- Nasty equipment
- More and better removal
- Stable mana base
- No Islands, so no unblockable weenies



Just be aware of Spreading Seas. It's sideboard tech in Merfolk and takes care of the 'no Islands' situation. I assume most players are using Spreading Seas as a Standstill replacement on the draw or perhaps for some number of Daze/Spell Pierce/Force of Will.

I'm not an expert Merfolk player, but I see Spreading Seas popping up in some Merfolk sideboards. I don't think there is much worse than thinking we've got the ground locked up and then they drop a Spreading Seas and get in with a stealth attack.

The good news is, our deck has a lot of answers to Spreading Seas - Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary (sacrifice an enchanted Plains or Forest or dig for a Wasteland), and Wasteland (destroy our own enchanted land).

[Esper3k]

(sacrifice an enchanted Plains or Forest or dig for a Wasteland), and Wasteland (destroy our own enchanted land).

You can't sacrifice an enchanted land to Knight since Spreading Seas turns them into Islands, not Islands in addition to their previous land types.

The land doesn't stop being basic either, so if they hit your Forest or Plains with it, you can't even Wasteland it away.

[Asthereal]

I'd be pretty pleased if Merfolk players would side in Spreading seas against me instead of Mind Harness, Submerge, Perish and the like. :P
But anyway, I know it's out there, and we have tons of answers. I'm not worried. Especially since I play a lot of removal in my list. Now I'm back to the full playset of Paths, divided over main and side, and I love them sooo much. :)

[.Ix]

I've been experimenting with a GWB Maverick variant for a while now. Here's my current list:

Creatures (17):
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Spells (20):
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (23):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard:
2 Darkblast
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Krosan Grip
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ethersworn Canonist


I don't like Thalia in here (it slows down the deck far too much), so I thought Cabal Therapy was a great disruption effect. Lingering Souls is amazing with Therapy, Jitte, Edric, Gavony Township, and it's great for chump blocking while trying to stabilize. It's also good against Terminus because you can just leave some in the grave while pumping tokens with Township or building Jitte counters. The Township is hilarious. People laugh at it until they're staring at a bunch of flying 3/3s and some abnormally large birds.

Edric is just a much better sword in this deck. He's tutorable and doesn't have an equip cost. You can just GSZ him in, swing in with tokens, and draw 4 cards. It's pretty amazing. He comes in right when you run out of cards, too.

Therapy is better in a combo/control meta than aggro, so it could go to the SB for the 2 Stoneforge, 1 Batterskull, and 1 Darkblast. It's dead mid-lategame so it's not very good against decks like RUG and Affinity.


I ran a slightly different build in a tournament (with mystics and a SOFI main) and went 2-3-2, drawing against mirror-ish matchups when I had favored boards. I lost to 2 Show and Tell decks (Hive Mind, Dream Halls/Progenitus) and 1 RUG Delver deck.

[Koby]

Might as well throw in Taigas and Gaea's Might for good measure.

Your deck isn't aggro at this point. You have 17 creatures, and half of them are smaller than a Squire.

[Dzra]

Yeah, I'd have to agree. You're adding Black for disruption, but it doesn't seem like your combo MU got any better. Thalia is about the best thing this deck can do against most of the field.

[.Ix]

That's 17 creatures not counting 4 Lingering Souls. I've had quite a few matches where I just flashed souls and won off the little flying attackers, so it can definitely still go aggro.

I agree Thalia is very good, but Souls is a much better topdeck. The combo matchup didn't get any better but I wouldn't have drawn Thalia in those losses (-x Thalia, +4 Therapy, and I didn't draw therapy), and I still would have lost if I drew her.

[lavafrogg]

If you are going to splash black in a creature/equipment deck wouldn't dark confidant have more use than any other black cards? After confidant I would say you can start adding discard and lingering souls.

Just a thought from a GWB junk player...

[Thorondor]

seriously, if you add black to maverick it is not maverick anymore, but junk/rock with many creatures. I don't like it since maverick turn 1 is noble hierarch, zenith for 0 or mother of runes than turn 2 thalia, ooze, knight....
it is not turn 1 discard, turn 2: mother/zenith for 1/ooze....

what do you cut for discard anyway?

[.Ix]

I don't like it since maverick turn 1 is noble hierarch, zenith for 0 or mother of runes than turn 2 thalia, ooze, knight....
it is not turn 1 discard, turn 2: mother/zenith for 1/ooze....

what do you cut for discard anyway?

The deck still has those lines of play except Thalia, because the deck doesn't run Thalia. That's OK, though. You don't have to like it.

lavafrogg:

I'd test Confidants but I don't own them. I'd find room for maybe 3 of them, cutting 1 Souls and maybe 1 Therapy, and something else. I can't control the top of the deck without the singleton Sylvan Library though, so it might be dangerous sometimes. What would you cut for them?

[.:saturno:.]

OMG. u splash black for lingering soul??? O.O and demise in SB when u can play 8 plowshare O.o
and cut thalia, that is the only amazing card VS canadian and combo deck.

[Dzra]

I smell a troll....

But really, I don't see what Black is giving you that you don't have already (unless you're looking to just completely change your deck's game plan).

[Lans89]

Hey guys,

Here is my current list for the GP in Ghent:

Maindeck
1x Plains
2x Forest
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
----
22

1x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fauna Shaman
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Knight of the Reliquary
----
24

4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Life from the Loam
---
14

Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Path to Exile
2x Choke
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Dauntless Escort (give it a try vs Perish?)
2x Ethersworn Canonist (not sure if this card should still be in the board)
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Life from the Loam
3x Surgical Extraction (still not sure about this either)
----
15

As you can see i dropped the Mystics completely, and run no other equipment than jitte. I also don't play Garruk or Elspeth, since you often are on the Teeg plan..

Could you give me some advice =)?

[Koby]

2 life from the loam (1 main and 1 side) are an odd choice with no Sylvan Safekeeper. You could probably cut the maindeck for the 4th Thalia to hedge against any unfair decks. Other than that, it looks like a solid choice. Just know which of your choices are flexible in case you need to modify it going in (like more Scavenging Ooze or Pridemage).

Good luck!

[Lans89]

Yeah, if i cut Ethersworn Canonist (which was always a 1-off when i still played a tutor package) i'll probably play 1 extra Pridemage side, or go for 2x Krosan Grip.. You can win so many games with artifact/enchantment hate.. Especially vs random decks (I was close to 3 byes, but didn't score some..).

Loam is a cool 1-off if you can lay a wasteland lock or need your Maze of Ith back, and you can always re-use your Canopy ofc :p!

[Koby]

Yeah, if i cut Ethersworn Canonist (which was always a 1-off when i still played a tutor package) i'll probably play 1 extra Pridemage side, or go for 2x Krosan Grip.. You can win so many games with artifact/enchantment hate.. Especially vs random decks (I was close to 3 byes, but didn't score some..).

Grip might be a very good choice for the Grand Prix. It wouldn't hurt against the possibility of Humility or random equipment decks.

[Rafa]

On the GWb Splash, I'd go this way:

2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
24

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
15

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
22


Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Parallax Wave
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Choke
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
3 Maelstrom Pulse

[mini1337s]

Hey guys,

Here is my current list for the GP in Ghent:

Maindeck
1x Plains
2x Forest
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of ith
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland
----
22

1x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Fauna Shaman
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Knight of the Reliquary
----
24

4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Life from the Loam
---
14

A very European list :)
My first suggestion is to replace Birds with a 4th Hierarch. With Umezawa's Jitte as your only equipment, Birds swinging in requires it and Hierarch to actually do anything. I would suggest that you'll benefit from the additional exalted trigger moreso than the occasionally setup where you have Hierarch, Birds, and Jitte, or the occasional chumpblock.
Thrun is a personal preference, but I've cut him from my list. If he does what he wants him to do, power to you, but he was just too slow/lackluster for me.
As Koby said, run Safekeeper if you are running Loam. The card is incredibly powerful, and with Loam, allows you to aggressively blank removal. I've had nothing but positive experiences with him.
Are you finding the 5th instance of spot removal worth it? Doesn't seem bad, just wondering if there was a reason for it.


Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Path to Exile
2x Choke
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Dauntless Escort (give it a try vs Perish?)
2x Ethersworn Canonist (not sure if this card should still be in the board)
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Life from the Loam
3x Surgical Extraction (still not sure about this either)

The 2nd Linvala isn't nessecary. I would cut the 2nd Teeg too and bump up the Ethersworn Canonists to 3.
Escort is probably not nessecary, but if you need to blank mass removal, it's fine.
Surgical's are good, but they depend on your knowledge of the metagame. If you are confidant in your ability to strip key cards are certain times, then go for it, but otherwise you might want to go with general "good stuff" cards like Oblivion Ring or Pithing Needle.

My sideboard currently is:
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Peacekeeper
1x Harmonic Sliver
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Tormod's Crypt

Peacekeeper has been a house in keeping Sneak and Show decks in check (and Sylvan Safekeeper has saved him many times). I've also found myself bringing him in against aggro decks like Goblins, allowing me to slow down and control the game until I can swing for lethal.
Sliver might be the cut though... probably moving back to Krosan Grip. It's ability to be pulled out with GSZ hasn't been that great. Idk, on the fence with this guy.

[door]

With elves! deck becoming more and more popular is maverick still a good choice?

I was wondering what answers we could offer for elves. Ethersworn canonist is getting worse against them as they tend to go more for an aggro plan. Moreover, they side in humilities, jittes and mortapods against us. In my experience it's a bane. Additional spot removal doesn't usually help and often we have not enough time to wait for Elesh Norn (and again, humility). So what do you think?

[Hopo]

With elves! deck becoming more and more popular is maverick still a good choice?

I was wondering what answers we could offer for elves. Ethersworn canonist is getting worse against them as they tend to go more for an aggro plan. Moreover, they side in humilities, jittes and mortapods against us. In my experience it's a bane. Additional spot removal doesn't usually help and often we have not enough time to wait for Elesh Norn (and again, humility). So what do you think?

Holy Light?

Is it truly so that StoPs, Jittes, Mothers, Paths and Gut Shots don't get you there?

[door]

Holy Light?

Is it truly so that StoPs, Jittes, Mothers, Paths and Gut Shots don't get you there?

Unfortunately. Besides, I can't afford to fill half of my board with spot removal.

[Hopo]

Unfortunately. Besides, I can't afford to fill half of my board with spot removal.

Some extra wouldn't probably be bad, since merfolk is on the rise and I would expect builds without Tarmogoyf to be slightly worse against it than before.

But this is thinking only. When I played this, merfolk was huge.

[Dzra]

Maverick isn't the best against Elves. Linvala is really good and I imagine that Sublime Archangel would be pretty good. Jitte obviously gets there.

[mini1337s]

G1 versus elves you need to rush out a jitte and swords their engine pieces. If you run Linvala main deck, just rush one out through fauna shaman.
Game two, I bring in Peacekeeper and Ethersworn Canonist. Control the speed at which they can attack and cast, and build up a KotR for exacties'

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Peacekeeper is pretty unreliable against the newer elf lists with Mortarpod and Humilities, it doesn't hinder them at swarming the board until they find the solution.

[Esper3k]

Peacekeeper is pretty unreliable against the newer elf lists with Mortarpod and Humilities, it doesn't hinder them at swarming the board until they find the solution.

Conversely though, if they have Humility out, that really makes Jitte even better.

[menace13]

Would Elves board in Humility against Maverick when nothing in the deck aside Canonist stops them from comboing out?

[Water_Wizard]

They might - Caleb Durward said he sided in 1 Meekstoke and 1 Humility vs. RUG. Chris Andersen was running 3 Meekstone in his build vs. RUG. So, obviously Maverick is concerned with running tech against other 'fair' creature-based decks.

The reason they might play Humility is that they can pump out more creatures than us and then drop Humility and there is nothing we can do to get rid of the Humility (barring Krosan Grip). If they get an turn 2/3 mini-Glimpse and drop 7-10 creatures on the board and then follow it up with a Humility on the following turn, their 7-10 1/1's will be able to beat our 3/4 1/1's. Not to mention 70% of their deck is creatures or GSZ, where ~45% of our deck is creatures or GSZ.

Plus, Humility really makes our removal and our big guys look foolish (STP'ing a 1/1 vanilla creature or paying 3 for a 1/1 is dumb).

I think the current versions of Elves has two plans vs. Maverick:
1) Combo off as quickly as possible.
2) Drop Humility and put more 1/1's into play.

[Water_Wizard]

Beating RUG Delver - the stats show this match up should be about 50/50, or perhaps slightly in Maverick's favor. However, I've lost my last 3 matches vs. RUG. Some of this is due to variance. Two of my games, my opponents drew pretty hot and another one I pulled 5 lands off the top out of my first 6 draws. Perhaps I am not playing optimally. The matches I've lost have mainly been to a flipped Delver, as we don't have much that flies to block them. For this reason, I'm considering Aven Mindcensor (for the trade). I also considered boarding in Linvala, but this seemed too attenuated. I've also died to Threshed Mongooses (3, to be exact), but this should never really happen and this occurred during my mana-flood game.

The reasons I am writing are twofold. First, to gather everyone's sideboarding plan vs. RUG. Second, to gather general strategy for the match up.

Starting with strategy, let me list a few off the top of my mind:
1. Get a Jitte online.
2. Kill all their creatures (Gut Shot the Delvers, StP/PtE the Goyfs/Ooze).
3. Don't turn 1 GSZ for Dryad Arbor (when it gets Submerged, it hurts too much).
4. Don't play two x/1 creatures without an active Mother, unless you have Thalia and they are short on land (too much of a risk of playing into Forked Bolt / Fire//Ice).
5. Other suggestions are welcome.

Regarding sideboarding plans. I've been running Ben Stark's GP list (which was designed by LSV). With the rise and fall of Reanimator, this list is probably less than optimally tuned for the current meta. The sideboard is probably over-committed to defeating Reanimator/Sneak and Show/Elves. Anyhow, I've been running LSV's exact list, which you can find here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8622&iddeck=62912

With this list, I usually sideboard as follows:
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Fauna Shaman
- 2 Qasali Pridemage
- 2 Sylvan Library

+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 3 Gut Shot
+ 1 Path to Exile
+ 1 Life from the Loam

When I don't expect Sulfuric Vortex, I'll remove the 3rd Qasali Pridemage for Gaddock Teeg. I'm not totally sold on Teeg in this match. He stops Submerge and Force of Will, but many times RUG removes all or some number of FOWs and they can always filter Submerge away or hold them until they've disbanded Teeg. Because Teeg eliminates our own GSZ and we have no ability to filter them away, an active Teeg can make for dead draws. When I run Teeg, I'm inclined to leave in Karakas over Bojuka Bog, as it allows me to bounce Teeg/Thalia to protect from removal, 'fog' block, and 'lift' their respective abilities and then replay them later in my turn.

I curious about everyone's inputs, experiences, and advice regarding the RUG match up.

[.:saturno:.]

VS RUG u can win with 4thalia and 2 cavern MD and 2 choke post side. this is my side.

elfball is a bad mu, and i dont know how can i do. however my sb is 2 canonist 1 linvala 1 path. but is ever bad.

[Koby]

Gut shot is not for the RUG matchup whatsoever. You can try it out, but i gaurentee it you will be disappointed with its performance. Nothin is worse than topdecking Gut shot against a flipped Delver. Stick to Paths and getting Jitte online. If youre not already running Sylvan Safekeeper, that also helps against the tempo removal. Gut shot + Thalia is a sweet nonbo.

Dont board out Sylvan Library either.

[.:saturno:.]

i dont understand safekeeper where it is strong.
side against those who do?

[Esper3k]

Safekeeper is awesome against RUG because it acts like a hasty Mom.

In that matchup, we pretty much have to keep Knight from getting Submerged/Mind Harnessed and not die to Delver. Tarmogoyfs and Mongooses are pretty easy to deal with.

[Water_Wizard]

Gut shot is not for the RUG matchup whatsoever. You can try it out, but i gaurentee it you will be disappointed with its performance. Nothin is worse than topdecking Gut shot against a flipped Delver. Stick to Paths and getting Jitte online. If youre not already running Sylvan Safekeeper, that also helps against the tempo removal. Gut shot + Thalia is a sweet nonbo.

Dont board out Sylvan Library either.

Makes sense. In my limited RUG MU's Gut Shot has been very good (I've always had it in hand before the Delver flipped), but I can see your point about it being a totally dead card once Insectile Aberration transforms. Overall, I have been unimpressed with the Gut Shots. The life loss does become relevant. Hence, the Taiga in the main deck. However, the Taiga comes at the cost of Gaea's Cradle, which I particularly like in the RUG match-up in combination with Scavenging Ooze for shrinking Goyfs, un-threshing Mongooses, and staying out of range of burn.

Great advice about the Sylvan Libraries. It always felt 'wrong' to take them out. Now that I'm no longer boarding in Gut Shot, I'll got +2 Sylvan Library, +1 Gaddock Teeg and and either leave in a QP or Karakas (Karakas seems like the better overall choice, but I've died an agonizing death to Sulfuric Vortex, hence the inclusion of 1 QP as a GSZ target).

For those running Sylvan Safekeeper, are you maindecking it or sideboarding it? I imagine it is very solid against pretty much every deck in the field. Even combo decks games 2/3 usually bring in some targeted removal/bounce against our hate bears. I know this was discussed a few posts ago, but is the idea maindeck Safekeeper and Life from the Loam or to bring both in from the side? Meta decision? What decks is this good against (other than the fore-mentioned RUG)? I imagine it is good against mirror, UW, Merfolk, Goblins, combo decks with Slaughter Pact / Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth, Nic Fit / Junk (maybe not so much because of Pernicious Deed / Perish, Dauntless Escort is probably better here, although Dauntless just soaks up spot removal the turn before the mass removal is cast). Any other decks / advice?

Any decklists running Sylvan Safekeeper?

[Koby]

I wouldn't start Life from the Loam maindeck unless I was also running Safekeeper. Safekeeper can be stand-alone, and makes more sense right now instead of the 4th Mom (at least until RUG and Miracle aren't top dogs). Safekeeper can be either main or side; I haven't played Maverick seriously in the last 6 weeks to really know where it should be right now. Safekeeper can probably replace Gaddock Teeg vs RUG too, since the former provides more utility against RUG's removal. Last time I played in Vegas, I was anticipating a lot of RUG and ran Life from the Loam in the side to bring in. Having both helps in this matchup.

[Kuma]

I'll admit to never having tested Sylvan Safekeeper in Maverick, but sacrificing lands against a deck designed to hit your manabase and disrupt you with soft counters seems terrible. Can someone give an example of a situation where Sylvan Safekeeper was a game-winner against RUG? I never seem to have "extra" lands against RUG.

[Water_Wizard]

As a general question, is it time to move back to Punishing Mav?

It seems like the meta has shifted and Tribal and Control are becoming more popular. It's been a while since I've seen a Punishing Mav build do well. A good Punishing Mav build would certainly take some tuning, moving away from Cavern of Souls and possibly Thalia. However, Punishing Fire is very good against Tribal and also as an alternative kill vs. slow control decks.

Another factor to consider in determining if the meta is ripe for Punishing Mav is the amount of graveyard hate. Punishing Mav does better in an environment with lower amounts of Surgical Extractions, Extirpates, Faerie Macarbes, Scavenging Oozes, Bojuka Bogs, etc. With the rise and apparent fall of Reanimator, perhaps graveyard hate is on the decline, but it may take a few weeks for this change to be reflected in sideboard allocations. Interestingly, Grafdigger's Cage does not effect Punishing Fire. Also, you can tap Grove of the Burnwillows in response to Extirpate, because tapping is a mana ability (avoids Split Second).

Overall, it seems like Thalia and Punishing Fire are at odds with each other. Obviously, it's a non-bo to play both. However, Thalia is very good against combo match-ups, whereas Punishing Fire is good vs. Tribal / swarm (the match-ups where Thalia is not so good). Both Thalia and Punishing Fire are good vs. RUG, and this is probably one of the few match-ups where I would want to run both.

The obvious solution is to cut Cavern of Souls, add some number of Grove of the Burnwillows, a Taiga, and a Life from the Loam (and possibly add a Birds of Paradise over a Heirarch -however, this creates Jitte issues) (You would add the lands at the expense the above-mentioned Caverns, some number of Wastelands and a Savannah), and play either Thalia/Punishing Fire maindeck while placing the other in the sideboard, depending upon your meta. The idea being that you would sideboard one for the other, with the possibility of playing both versus RUG.

[Koby]

I'll admit to never having tested Sylvan Safekeeper in Maverick, but sacrificing lands against a deck designed to hit your manabase and disrupt you with soft counters seems terrible. Can someone give an example of a situation where Sylvan Safekeeper was a game-winner against RUG? I never seem to have "extra" lands against RUG.

Sure, 4 mana active - cast Knight of the Reliquary, pay :1: for Daze, but Knight is only a 3/3. Safekeeper provides immediate protection from Submerge, Bolt, and Mind Harness.

RE: Punishing Fires
The time is not ripe for its return, and I doubt it will be until RUG and Griselbrand are severely crippled. As it stands, they represent about 25% and 10% respectively of the average Legacy metagame. Tribal still can't trump Umezawa's Jitte. FWIW, Cavern of Souls is fairly lousy to begin with.

[Kuma]

Sure, 4 mana active - cast Knight of the Reliquary, pay :1: for Daze, but Knight is only a 3/3. Safekeeper provides immediate protection from Submerge, Bolt, and Mind Harness.

Thanks for the example. I can see how Sylvan Safekeeper would be good there. My problem, at least, is getting to the four-mana Knight of the Reliquary stage against RUG in the first place. Haven't played against RUG in over a month, so maybe things have changed.

It kind of got buried a couple of pages back, but Tacosnape suggested Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Would this be better, more flexible tech against RUG Delver? Matsu-Tribe Sniper can hold down two flipped Delvers at a time (can even kill them with Scryb Ranger), kills Esperblade's creatures like a boss, eats random Vendilion Cliques, and stops Griselbrand and Emrakul from attacking. You can even block a big ground-pounder like Knight of the Reliquary and give Matsu-Tribe Sniper protection with Mother of Runes to neutralize the threat.

[Esper3k]

I'm currently playing both Sylvan Safekeeper and Ulvenwald Tracker main and they've both been very good for me.

Against RUG, once you have a Knight down, you don't really need that many extra lands since Knight helps generate you mana (and you can always just Gaea's Cradle boost up if you really need to).

Tracker doesn't deal with Emrakul but man does it get nasty when you pair it with Moms. Even a 4/4 post combat Qasali (say you have a Noble behind it) starts to eat a fair amount of currently played Legacy creatures.

[Valtrix]

Wouldn't more copies of Scavenging ooze be ideal for the RUG matchup? You can neuter 2/3 of their creatures (Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf), and the life gain becomes very difficult for them to fight through. Additionally, tons of decks are using the GY in some manner (such as Snapcaster Mage) and ooze can always become a giant beater, so he's useful in most every matchup. As such, you can fit them into the main without taking up board space and can add even more board slots for the MU if you want. Additionally, he helps a ton in the mirror and gives you better chances vs. the GY decks G1.

[TarmoX]

As a general question, is it time to move back to Punishing Mav?

It seems like the meta has shifted and Tribal and Control are becoming more popular. It's been a while since I've seen a Punishing Mav build do well. A good Punishing Mav build would certainly take some tuning, moving away from Cavern of Souls and possibly Thalia. However, Punishing Fire is very good against Tribal and also as an alternative kill vs. slow control decks.

Another factor to consider in determining if the meta is ripe for Punishing Mav is the amount of graveyard hate. Punishing Mav does better in an environment with lower amounts of Surgical Extractions, Extirpates, Faerie Macarbes, Scavenging Oozes, Bojuka Bogs, etc. With the rise and apparent fall of Reanimator, perhaps graveyard hate is on the decline, but it may take a few weeks for this change to be reflected in sideboard allocations. Interestingly, Grafdigger's Cage does not effect Punishing Fire. Also, you can tap Grove of the Burnwillows in response to Extirpate, because tapping is a mana ability (avoids Split Second).

Overall, it seems like Thalia and Punishing Fire are at odds with each other. Obviously, it's a non-bo to play both. However, Thalia is very good against combo match-ups, whereas Punishing Fire is good vs. Tribal / swarm (the match-ups where Thalia is not so good). Both Thalia and Punishing Fire are good vs. RUG, and this is probably one of the few match-ups where I would want to run both.

The obvious solution is to cut Cavern of Souls, add some number of Grove of the Burnwillows, a Taiga, and a Life from the Loam (and possibly add a Birds of Paradise over a Heirarch -however, this creates Jitte issues) (You would add the lands at the expense the above-mentioned Caverns, some number of Wastelands and a Savannah), and play either Thalia/Punishing Fire maindeck while placing the other in the sideboard, depending upon your meta. The idea being that you would sideboard one for the other, with the possibility of playing both versus RUG.

In my meta and in general i'm very comfortable using Punishing Mav. Thalia is in SB for matchup shes needed, P.Fire adds some removal good vs tribal and little dangerous creatures (Delver, Guide, SFM ecc. ecc.).

[Water_Wizard]

In my meta and in general i'm very comfortable using Punishing Mav. Thalia is in SB for matchup shes needed, P.Fire adds some removal good vs tribal and little dangerous creatures (Delver, Guide, SFM ecc. ecc.).

Mind posting your decklist? Or your mana base at least? Is it pretty much like the pre-AVR/DKA lists? Thanks!

[TarmoX]

Mind posting your decklist? Or your mana base at least? Is it pretty much like the pre-AVR/DKA lists? Thanks!


My list is :

4 Windswept Heath
2 Woodedfoothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
1 maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull



4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg


SB (now)
3 REB
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Choke
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Deckerator]

How does it perform when you play against the mirror with Thalia. Does it not feel a little bit too slow. Because punishing costs more to play? Or ooze will remove it?

[Esper3k]

I've never had a problem with Pfires + Thalia. 1 more isn't huge in the overall cost given how much mana the deck can generate.

[Water_Wizard]

Plus, vs. the mirror, Thalia is probably coming out.

I usually remove Thalia vs. creature-based decks - Mirror, Tribal, Nic Fit, etc.

TarmoX, thanks for posting you list.

REBs should probably be Pyroblasts - on the off chance Merfolk Phantasmal Images an non-blue creature (your Knight, etc.), you can still kill it.

Your lists looks really solid. I will probably make some small, personal tweaks and run a very similar list

- running 2 Jitte, no other equipment
- running LftL
- including 2 Linvala in the board
- running 2 Sylvan Library

Thanks!

[Water_Wizard]

Okay, so here's the list I just threw together. It's based mostly off of TarmoX's list with a combination of my 'old' (Nov '11) Punishing Mav list and Ben's Stark's GP list.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Woodedfoothills
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
1 maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Stoneforge mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Qusali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg


SB (now)
3 Pyroblast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

In the main, Teeg and Elspeth are the flex slots. Teeg should definitely be in the 75, but he might be sideboard material. I included him the the main because I am not running Choke in the sideboard, and I figured Teeg would give a little boost to the UW matchup.

The sideboard is self-explanatory. I considered adding more graveyard hate, Krosan Grip, another planeswalker, a 4th Thalia, or a 2nd Karakas. Just have to test it and see where the meta is...

[rxavage]

Koby(mav) vs AJ Sacher(ubdelver) rd3 of SCG Vegas on right now.

[Water_Wizard]

Thank goodness Koby picked up Maverick again!

I haven't seen his results yet, hopefully he did well on the day :smile:

[Avatar of Light]

Thank goodness Koby picked up Maverick again!

I haven't seen his results yet, hopefully he did well on the day :smile:

Standings after Round 8 (http://www.starcitygames.com/scglive/files/20120722221422000000.html)

Koby finished 31st/222 competitors.

[mishima_kazuya]

As a general question, is it time to move back to Punishing Mav?

It seems like the meta has shifted and Tribal and Control are becoming more popular. It's been a while since I've seen a Punishing Mav build do well. A good Punishing Mav build would certainly take some tuning, moving away from Cavern of Souls and possibly Thalia. However, Punishing Fire is very good against Tribal and also as an alternative kill vs. slow control decks.

Another factor to consider in determining if the meta is ripe for Punishing Mav is the amount of graveyard hate. Punishing Mav does better in an environment with lower amounts of Surgical Extractions, Extirpates, Faerie Macarbes, Scavenging Oozes, Bojuka Bogs, etc. With the rise and apparent fall of Reanimator, perhaps graveyard hate is on the decline, but it may take a few weeks for this change to be reflected in sideboard allocations. Interestingly, Grafdigger's Cage does not effect Punishing Fire. Also, you can tap Grove of the Burnwillows in response to Extirpate, because tapping is a mana ability (avoids Split Second).

Overall, it seems like Thalia and Punishing Fire are at odds with each other. Obviously, it's a non-bo to play both. However, Thalia is very good against combo match-ups, whereas Punishing Fire is good vs. Tribal / swarm (the match-ups where Thalia is not so good). Both Thalia and Punishing Fire are good vs. RUG, and this is probably one of the few match-ups where I would want to run both.

The obvious solution is to cut Cavern of Souls, add some number of Grove of the Burnwillows, a Taiga, and a Life from the Loam (and possibly add a Birds of Paradise over a Heirarch -however, this creates Jitte issues) (You would add the lands at the expense the above-mentioned Caverns, some number of Wastelands and a Savannah), and play either Thalia/Punishing Fire maindeck while placing the other in the sideboard, depending upon your meta. The idea being that you would sideboard one for the other, with the possibility of playing both versus RUG.


On the East Coast of America you are guaranteed to play against RUG Delver at least once in a tournament. Combine with the scattered Griselbrand decks presence and you have plenty of reason to not run Punishing Fire...unfortunately.

Sylvan Safekeeper and Life from the Loam seems legit though, might try it out.

[Water_Wizard]

On the East Coast of America you are guaranteed to play against RUG Delver at least once in a tournament. Combine with the scattered Griselbrand decks presence and you have plenty of reason to not run Punishing Fire...unfortunately.

Sylvan Safekeeper and Life from the Loam seems legit though, might try it out.

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

[mishima_kazuya]

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

Sure Punishing Fire is killing Delvers. But it doesn't kill Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, which leaves your only out to be Knight of the Reliquary, which they can Submerge.

The problem with going long with Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam is that a good RUG player knows to keep up pressure on your life total so you will rarely have time to durdle with Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire tricks.

Also fetching basics is a good plan against Wasteland.

[KobeBryan]

Is one sylvan safekeeper and one loam enough to keep the engine running?

[Tammit67]

Punishing Mav is better at beating RUG.
Your maindeck Punishing Fires equal recurring Delver destruction.
Your maindeck Life from the Loam helps out against Wasteland.
The Pyroblasts you bring in from the board defeat Brainstorms.

Thalia and Punishing fire hate each other. Thalia is what shores up the actually bad matchups while being very relevant vs RUG. I don't like fires plan in the scheme of things

[Valtrix]

Thalia and Punishing fire hate each other. Thalia is what shores up the actually bad matchups while being very relevant vs RUG. I don't like fires plan in the scheme of things

I don't really see why the punishing fires gameplan is necessary. I feel as though any deck that PFires is good against, just running Stoneforge Mystic for Umezawa's Jitte or even Batterskull is going to just as much, if not more. Jitte is a free "2 damage" every attack phase anyway, and the lifegain is usually pretty tough for small creature decks to fight through. Plus, I think it's way more reliable in other matchups for not taking any setup except itself. Sure, it's a bit more mana-intensive, but I think that that's hardly a concern. And if you're worried about not having creatures for Jitte...Again, any deck that fires is useful against you will probably have creatures in play anyway.

[ryscott85]

I'd love to hear from Koby or Brian Moss if he is on the board. What were your strengths/weaknesses. What would you change if you would change anything going back into the same tournament?

[Water_Wizard]

The whole point of the possibility of switching back into a Punishing Fire build is to combat Tribal. If you read over the past couple of pages, there concern about the tribal match-up - "I can't beat Elves." Merfolk is on the rise. It looked like Goblins was going to make a comeback, but that apparently died.

Punishing Mav beats tribal more handily than GW mav. Punishing Mav also has a better match-up vs. RUG and UW. If Merfolk comes back, Punishing Mav dominates it, especially with the Pyroblasts from out of the board. Umezawa's Jitte is good in most match-ups and is a better catch-all, but Merfolk will often-times run their own for the legend rule (heck, even Elves is running a copy of Jitte). It's true, Punishing Fire can be eaten by an Ooze or Extracted, but it's solid tech vs. Tribal and I believe Punishing is more favorable vs. most non-combo blue decks.

However, straight GW with Thalia is best against combo decks. Personally, if I expected to play against a lot of combo (>50% Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Storm, Doomsday, and Belcher), I would would not run Maverick and I would run a deck with blue in it.

I did beat Elves over the weekend with a straight GW version of Maverick. However, I was running 8 exile effects (5 main, 3 board), 2 Jittes, in 2 Linvalas, and 1 SFM and we played 3 close matches. So, perhaps I detract from my own argument, but it was just an idea. Thalia and GW Mav have definitely been dominate the past few months.

[_erbs_]

Hi,
Im not sure how effective really is punishing mav vs merfs... on paper and theory it is because it has recursion but would 2 points of damage worth anything against LOA, MotPT, Coralhelm, Reerey & Phantasmal Image. thats 16-18 lords.

[mishima_kazuya]

How is Punishing Fire going to help you against RUG Delver when they are trying to kill you early? By the time you stabilize long enough for Punishing Fire recursions you should have the game locked up with a big Knight or a Jitte.

The only thing Punishing Fire kills is Delver of Secrets, which leaves their Mongooses and Goyfs mostly unmolested. Even at early game you want your removal to cost 1 mana instead of 2 to get around Spell Pierces and Dazes. Just playing more Path to Exiles in the 75 is better since it can also remove a Goyf.

[Water_Wizard]

In my experience vs. RUG, if RUG wins, it happens in 1 of 2 ways:

1) Maverick gets totally mana screwed (they stifle/wasteland/bolt our mana dorks) and then daze/fow some key spells. In situation 1, RUG can beat down with any creature, because Maverick's board never develops. In this situation, it really doesn't matter what version of Maverick you are playing because mana denial is mana denial (perhaps there is a slight argument for the GW manabase being more stable).

2) RUG gets an early Delver or two and flies to victory, bashing for 3/6 per turn. Maverick, with it's lack of flyers, needs to cast StP/PtE around RUG's dazes/fows/spell pierces. The beauty of Punishing Fire in this match-up is that it is recurring Delver removal (plus you can eat those Delvers with your Ooze). Maverick should be able to lock up the ground and produce larger creatures than Nimble/Goyf, especially once the Maverick player gets active graveyard hate in the form of Scavenging Ooze or Bojuka Bog.

This is all conjuncture. I've played GW Maverick and Punishing Maverick vs. RUG and I think the Punishing match-up is better (pyroblast is just good in this mu). However, GW is more focused vs. combo (Punishing Fire is really a dead card in the combo match-up). Punishing Fire is good vs. against tribal. If the meta shifts towards tribal, Punishing Mav is better again. Admittedly, I have not yet made the switch myself, but I haven't seen tribal pick up that much (I play on MTGO and the 13E release is delayed from paper Magic, so MotPT is not yet available). However, the second I start seeing Merfolk, I am switching to Punishing Mav.

@ erbs and regarding beating Merfolk, the secret is not to let them get big. If you can make it to the mid-game where Merfolk is playing off the top of their deck, Punishing Fire kills every single threat in their deck (including targeting a Phantasmal Image). Against Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves, once you handle their initial burst, you can effectively produce Punishing-Fire lock, where nearly every creature they cast can be answered by Punishing Fire. You gain such huge card advantage through recurring Punishing Fires that it wins you the match.

[_erbs_]

How is 2 points of damage from punishing fire going to help you ???? yes don't let the merfs get big... but 16-18 Lords and timely counters ..... vs 4 stp 3 fires ???? do you really think that its a good plan....

if your able to stop the initial onslaught then pfires will really work... but look at the numbers against your removals..

[Koby]

Sure, lets start off with lists. Bitches love lists.

Total: 61
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thrabajsnkajsbea
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Shhhhhh

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Snacks
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Savannah (Beta of course)
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Green fetchland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Gut Shot
2 Armageddon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spike Feeder

Nothing in the maindeck felt weak. Cavern of Souls once helped me beat Blue, then helped me to lose against Dredge where I needed to activate Ooze. Gaea's Cradle was never instrumental in a blow out, but also never hurt when I opened it up in my starting hand.

Sideboard...
Oblivion Ring was hardly used, as I ended up playing against relatively fair decks. Spike Feeder was a hedge against the always ever present Burn decks, but double duty against a slow Dredge draw. Armageddon was a blast playing against AJ Sacher, but I never needed it against other decks.

My two losses were Dredge piloted by Joseph Moreno (got Top 8), and Goblins piloted by Phimus Pan, also in the Top 8. I got a grant total of 4 turns against Dredge the entire match, and I mulliganed to 5 on the play against Goblins in game 3. I drew in the last round to get Top 32 for prizes, then went outside to smoke a spliff.

Along the way I beat:
Sneak Show
:u::g::r: Delver
:u::b: Delver
:u::g::r: Delver
Reanimator (only lost 3 life the whole match, all to my own fetches)

Didn't feel like I was underpowered in any matchup, but the deck is still at the mercy of its topdecks.