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Valtrix
07-23-2012, 11:45 PM
Punishing Mav beats tribal more handily than GW mav. Punishing Mav also has a better match-up vs. RUG and UW.

The case I'm making is that you can run normal GW Maverick with SFM for jitte or maybe even batterskull. This takes no more slots than punishing fire/groves would.


Umezawa's Jitte is good in most match-ups and is a better catch-all, but Merfolk will often-times run their own for the legend rule (heck, even Elves is running a copy of Jitte). It's true, Punishing Fire can be eaten by an Ooze or Extracted, but it's solid tech vs. Tribal and I believe Punishing is more favorable vs. most non-combo blue decks.

Is this really an argument? Jitte is worse than punishing fire against Merfolk because they run their own Jitte? I'd be pretty terrified if they had Jitte. Plus, you can get Batterskull too which they just lose to. Punishing fire/groves just takes too much work to setup, when you can just play a Jitte and get the same effect with a single card.

Esper3k
07-24-2012, 12:09 AM
The benefit to playing Pfires is that you gain a better aggro and control matchup in addition to better sideboard options. The drawback here is that you have less consistency and less GSZ toolbox options.

Yes, you can say Jitte is also removal but it's much slower and requires you to get it on a creature and attacking.

zulander
07-24-2012, 01:21 AM
You want to beat tribal add red for real removal like bolt, not PFires. Also, add goyf back into the deck. He freaking wrecks goblins and merfolk. I enjoy big zoo for this reason, I run knights, goyfs, oozes, qpm, 8 1 mana removal spells, jittes, and flex removal spots like arc trail/grim lavamancer. If you're gonna stay in gw maverick shell then you're going to run into problems with decks that can swarm you since maverick really only runs 4 scary creatures (knights), all the other ones are mainly there to supplement knight or stop other mid range decks.

Koby
07-24-2012, 01:30 AM
I can echo that - Big Zoo or Zoo in general is one of the ways to beat the growing Tribal trend. However, that is only a good idea when the metagame is infested with them. It won't make sense against a wide-open field with any number of unfair strategies not held in check.

_erbs_
07-24-2012, 01:36 AM
@koby
maybe big zoo can take a page out of the mav's play book by adding thalia in the sb vs combo decks.

yup big zoo can own mav or tribal easy, but te question is why, nobody is playing it and people are keep on pushing with punishing mav. they almost have the same card pool. even if you add thalia in the big zoo list casting R +1 cc for a bolt is still worth it over a 3cc pfires.

Water_Wizard
07-24-2012, 02:10 AM
The benefit to playing Pfires is that you gain a better aggro and control matchup in addition to better sideboard options. The drawback here is that you have less consistency and less GSZ toolbox options.

Yes, you can say Jitte is also removal but it's much slower and requires you to get it on a creature and attacking.
+1


You want to beat tribal add red for real removal like bolt, not PFires. Also, add goyf back into the deck. He freaking wrecks goblins and merfolk. I enjoy big zoo for this reason, I run knights, goyfs, oozes, qpm, 8 1 mana removal spells, jittes, and flex removal spots like arc trail/grim lavamancer. If you're gonna stay in gw maverick shell then you're going to run into problems with decks that can swarm you since maverick really only runs 4 scary creatures (knights), all the other ones are mainly there to supplement knight or stop other mid range decks.
+1


I can echo that - Big Zoo or Zoo in general is one of the ways to beat the growing Tribal trend. However, that is only a good idea when the metagame is infested with them. It won't make sense against a wide-open field with any number of unfair strategies not held in check.
+1


...

Additionally, the Pyroblasts in the board of Punishing Mav / Zoo (if you run Pyroblast in your Zoo list) wreck Merfolk. Pyroblast is a PTE, except better because it doesn't give them an Island, grows you Goyf (+1 to playing Goyf against Tribal), and can be eaten by your Ooze.

One final note, I don't think Punishing Fires takes up more room than Thalia. If anything, they take up the same amount of room. You are running the same number of lands (23) in both decks and in the Punishing Fire version you add 3 Punishing Fires and 1 Life from the Loam (to support your weaker mana base) for 4 Thalias. You also swap a Noble Heirarch for a Birds of Paradise and make some switches in the mana base to support R, but neither package takes up more room. They are just good against different decks. I'll make a broad generalization here and say Thalia is better against all 'unfair' decks while Punishing Fire is better against all 'fair' decks.

Anyhow, enough of this Punishing Maverick talk. It was just an idea I brought up in anticipation of a revival of Tribal and it's turned into a major debate (as I guess most things do on The Source).

Dzra
07-24-2012, 02:26 AM
Just thinking out loud here... but what about something janky like a Natural Order SB plan into like Elderscale Wurm. GG Elves/Goblins/Burn (the worst ones). Merfolk has counters/Submerge, but I don't think it's too bad a MU anyways.

xiaocho
07-24-2012, 07:45 AM
Not necessarily.

If ur having trouble against tribal decks, just go with 4 stoneforge mystics and some jitte's.

.:saturno:.
07-24-2012, 08:36 AM
PF are useless and worst VS S&S, combo and reanimator.
aggro deck like merfolk and goblin are bye! if u have some problems add mystic into jitte or another path.
PS:
scryb ranger is god vs merfolk.

instead elf is a bad matchup and i dont know how play vs it.
now elf has responses vs linvala and canonist, my generic sb. vs this match.
which are the best card vs elf???

Esper3k
07-24-2012, 08:45 AM
Not necessarily.

If ur having trouble against tribal decks, just go with 4 stoneforge mystics and some jitte's.


PF are useless and worst VS S&S, combo and reanimator.
aggro deck like merfolk and goblin are bye! if u have some problems add mystic into jitte or another path.
PS:
scryb ranger is god vs merfolk.

instead elf is a bad matchup and i dont know how play vs it.
now elf has responses vs linvala and canonist, my generic sb. vs this match.
which are the best card vs elf???

Simply adding more Jitte / Stoneforge is not the solution for fighting aggro decks. Typically, Jitte costs you 5W to get online (1W for Stoneforge, 4 to play Jitte & Equip). During that time, Merfolk can have multiple lords out to get out of Jitte killing range, Goblins can have built up an army and are swinging for lethal, and Elves can very well have gone off with Glimpse.

Vs aggro decks, you need cheap, cost efficient removal to survive the early turns. Jitte is there to seal the deal once you've stabilized.

xiaocho
07-24-2012, 08:56 AM
well if the merfolk player gets lord after lord there's hardly anything u can do against him. he just got lucky.

same goes for u getting jitte online in the 3rd turn.

As for me sfm+jitt is all i need to have a positive matchup with my decklist.

Esper3k
07-24-2012, 09:01 AM
It's not very probable for us to get a Jitte online on T3. That requires us to go T1 Hierarch, T2 Stoneforge, T3 play Jitte, Equip without missing a land drop or them Force/Dazing.

Assuming you use the Stoneforge's activated ability to drop the Jitte so it doesn't get countered, we still don't have an active creature to put it on.

The way you beat the multiple Lord hands is to just crush them with removal, which is what Pfires helps with. If you get PFires active and can keep them to 1 Lord on the board at a time, you can just pick off Lords as they play them. PFires is also great at dealing with the Phantasmal Images that are so popular these days. Post board, you have access to Pyroblast/REBs as well. Finally, you don't play PFires instead of the Stoneforge package, you play it in addition to it.

Thorondor
07-24-2012, 09:38 AM
if you play more jitte instead of mystic you can hardcast turn 2 with daze mana open and equip turn 3.

Esper3k
07-24-2012, 09:45 AM
if you play more jitte instead of mystic you can hardcast turn 2 with daze mana open and equip turn 3.

On your... Noble Hierarch? Also, are you.suggesting playing more than 2 Jittes in order to achieve this?

Esper3k
07-24-2012, 09:55 AM
Honestly, in my experience, Batterskull is better than Jitte for surviving those early Merfolk-nutting-lords-on-your-face turns. It's easier to get active against Merfolk and immediately has an effect on the board when you drop it (usually kills one of your guys while negating another through the life gain).

However, I think Batterskull is still fairly bad in the current meta, but that might change if aggro tribal (I don't count current Elves lists as aggro anymore) continues to gain in popularity.

Thorondor
07-24-2012, 10:05 AM
I agree, that there is no room for a batterskull atm. We just need to hope we can survive the onslaught and then win with bigger creatures, maze, scryb ranger....
and need maybe some slots in the sideboard, but it is still not sure that merfolk will make a comeback. I don't see it coming right now.

Valtrix
07-24-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't think batterskull is bad in the current meta at all. RUG Delver and Tribal both almost auto-lose to that card if it gets into play. Additionally, control decks are starting to see more play, and the recursion of batterskull is very hard to deal with unless they are able to counterspell it.

kohulk
07-24-2012, 12:40 PM
One other option against tribal decks is loyal retainers/elesh norn. Sure you need to work and keep fauna shaman active, but when elesh resolves its game over. Have tested and came to the conclusion that in order to work we have to aim for this plan to work. That means at least 3 fauna shamans, sylvan safekeeper and even quirion ranger along with sryb ranger.

emrakultenticles
07-24-2012, 12:43 PM
need some criticism on some interested tech that I for 1 have not yet seen addressed, but first let me post my decklist:
creatures-25
4x Mother of runes
4x Noble hierarch
4x knight of the reliquary
3x thalia, gaurdian of thraben
2x scavenging ooze
2x qasali pridemage
1x painter's servant
1x scryb ranger
1x aven mindscensor
1x dryad arbor
1x Ulven wald tracker
1x Stoneforge mystic

Spells-10
4x sword to plowshares
4x green sun's zenith
2x enlightened tutor

Walkers-1
1x elspeth knight-errant

equiptment-2
1x sword of body and mind
1x umezawa's jitte

Lands-23
4x savannah
4x windswept heath
4x wasteland
2x cavern of souls
1x gaea's cradle
1x dryad arbor
1x karakas
1x maze of ith
1x horizon canopy
2x forest
1x planes

SB
2x choke
2x ethersworn cannonist
1x phyrexian revoker
1x krosan grip
2x surgical extracion
1x bojuka bog
1x umezawa's jitte
1x peacekeeper
1x grindstone
1x true believer
1x linvala, keeper of silence
1x gaddok teeg

first I chose to add Painter's servant in the main deck it creates interesting synergy with GSZ, mother of runes, and sword of body and mind (Naming Green)
second was the sword of body and mind I added so I can protect knight/ooze from submerge/mind harness and also makes my dude unblockable if servant is online.
with these changes it allows me to GSZ for any creature I need (Revoker, thalia, mother of runes, ethersworn cannonist, ect)
with the main deck changes I chose to run surgical extractions because of the synergy with sword of body and mind, and grindstone for obvious reasons.
sword of body and mind also acts like a all you can eat buffet for ooze.
im not really sure if this is the correct route to take with Maverick and it may just be just some "cute" tech, but that is why I come to you with this idea before I decide to give it a try.

any assistance and guidance on this would be greatly appreciated!

Kuma
07-24-2012, 12:50 PM
If you name green with Painter's Servant, you can't equip Sword of Body and Mind to any of your guys and if it's already equipped it falls off.

Seems like Painter's Servant is too cute to be worth running, but I'm interested in hearing how it does for you.

emrakultenticles
07-24-2012, 12:57 PM
If you name green with Painter's Servant, you can't equip Sword of Body and Mind to any of your guys and if it's already equipped it falls off.

Seems like Painter's Servant is too cute to be worth running, but I'm interested in hearing how it does for you.

well I have not yet tested it, I just thought it up and put it on paper. I did forget all about the fact that sword of body and mind would fall off when painter's servant is on the field, therefore I would have to say I like sword of light and shadow or a 2nd jitte.
I could still use mother of runes to make my beater unblockable even when facing creatures with a colorless color Identity such as Emrakul.
if I was to run sword of light and shadow in creates shenanigans with peacekeeper.

CorpT
07-24-2012, 02:00 PM
Seems like unnecessary jank.

KobeBryan
07-24-2012, 02:21 PM
Way too many cards to set up. You need enlightened tutor in the main, then a painters servant, then you need to look for your hate bear with the gsz.

emrakultenticles
07-24-2012, 03:07 PM
Way too many cards to set up. You need enlightened tutor in the main, then a painters servant, then you need to look for your hate bear with the gsz.

thanx for the input, and I will have to agree with you. It did look interesting on paper though lol

ryscott85
07-24-2012, 10:04 PM
Sure, lets start off with lists. Bitches love lists.

Total: 61
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thrabajsnkajsbea
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Shhhhhh

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Snacks
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Savannah (Beta of course)
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Green fetchland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Gut Shot
2 Armageddon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spike Feeder

Nothing in the maindeck felt weak. Cavern of Souls once helped me beat Blue, then helped me to lose against Dredge where I needed to activate Ooze. Gaea's Cradle was never instrumental in a blow out, but also never hurt when I opened it up in my starting hand.

Sideboard...
Oblivion Ring was hardly used, as I ended up playing against relatively fair decks. Spike Feeder was a hedge against the always ever present Burn decks, but double duty against a slow Dredge draw. Armageddon was a blast playing against AJ Sacher, but I never needed it against other decks.

My two losses were Dredge piloted by Joseph Moreno (got Top 8), and Goblins piloted by Phimus Pan, also in the Top 8. I got a grant total of 4 turns against Dredge the entire match, and I mulliganed to 5 on the play against Goblins in game 3. I drew in the last round to get Top 32 for prizes, then went outside to smoke a spliff.

Along the way I beat:
Sneak Show
:u::g::r: Delver
:u::b: Delver
:u::g::r: Delver
Reanimator (only lost 3 life the whole match, all to my own fetches)

Didn't feel like I was underpowered in any matchup, but the deck is still at the mercy of its topdecks.


Thanks for the update man! Just got a few questions: Do you think it would be feasable to swap a Stoneforge Mystic or possibly a thrid pridemage for the third ooze, or do you feel three is paramount? Also, Did the sword of l and s do that much work... Seems like it could get kinda over priced with a thalia online; do you think two jitte would have been slightly more beneficial? Great game on video btw! Do you think you would move linvala to the side, or do you think she pulls her weight in the main? Finally, do you think having three fairy m. in board would have helped your dredge matchups at all?

Koby
07-24-2012, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the update man! Just got a few questions: (1) Do you think it would be feasable to swap a Stoneforge Mystic or possibly a thrid pridemage for the third ooze, or do you feel three is paramount? (2) Also, Did the sword of l and s do that much work... Seems like it could get kinda over priced with a thalia online; do you think two jitte would have been slightly more beneficial? Great game on video btw! (3) Do you think you would move linvala to the side, or do you think she pulls her weight in the main? (4) Finally, do you think having three fairy m. in board would have helped your dredge matchups at all?

In order,

1. Sure, SFM is played only because I want to access SoLS. If you don't run that equipment, you can cut it. The 3rd Ooze or 3rd Pridemage are interchangeable too. I anticipated a lot of RUG and Reanimator, both of which are hurt by a reliable Ooze early.

2. SoLS did little to no work. Jitte is still the best piece of equipment. Having a second copy would have helped in situations where it got discarded/destroyed, but that didn't matter too much.

3. Linvala is a good hedge against Grislebrand, the mirror, and Elves. The latter has been picking up recently, and Maverick is already weak to the strategy. It doesn't hurt to have it maindeck. Blocking Delvers/Cliques also helps.

4. Absolutely. My sideboard changed dramatically in the hour before the tournament. Had I expected there to be so much Dredge I would not have cut Tormod's Crypt and could have considered Macabres too. I was not prepared for Dredge with this sideboard.

NathanS2k
07-25-2012, 12:21 AM
Also went to SCG Vegas this weekend. Played the same deck as the one from GP Atlanta, except I cut 1 Faerie Macabre for 1 Sylvan Safekeeper. I end up running into lots of combos that day. The end of the day, I was 4-4.

Round 1- TES (2-0)
Round 2- RUG (1-2)
Round 3- TES (1-2)
Round 4- High Tide (2-1)
Round 5- Elves (1-2)
Round 6- High Tide (1-2)
Round 7- Aggro Loam (2-1)
Round 8- Free win, the guy never showed up.....:cry:

Wished I had a pair of Ethersworn Cannonist in there somewhere.

NathanS2k
07-25-2012, 12:27 AM
Also Gaddock Teeg should be in the MD since so many of us SoCal guys in that event.

Fenrus
07-25-2012, 05:11 AM
I also went to Las Vegas. I had been planning to play High Tide, but after going 1-3 in the Legacy challenge I changed my mind. I had a partially built Maverick list laying around and decided to give it a shot. First time playing Maverick in a tournament, sorry but I didn't take any notes at all. Ended up 6-2 and will likely play Maverick again.

Round 1: Merfolk 2-0
Round 2: Affinity 2-0
Round 3: UR delver 1-2 (Made a huge misplay in game 3. Congrats to Cory Engel on making 9th place.)
Round 4: Rug Delver 0-2 (Out of top 8 Already. $#@! Congrats to Galan Falakfarsa on his top 8.)
Round 5: Affinity 2-0
Round 6: PT Junk 2-0
Round 7: Rug Delver 2-0 (I think this may be 2-1, can't remember. Will find my life pad and update.)
Round 8: Merfolk 2-1

Link to my list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48051).

I didn't have a lot of the cards I would have liked when putting the deck together. Hence the maindeck PtE(instead of StP #4, lack of ethersworn cannonists, and actual graveyard hate in the board. Although, the Manriki-Gusari was amazing versus cranial plating and merfolk Jitte's all day. I guess I just lucked out and dodged all of the reanimator and dredge.

Deckerator
07-25-2012, 11:22 AM
One other option against tribal decks is loyal retainers/elesh norn. Sure you need to work and keep fauna shaman active, but when elesh resolves its game over. Have tested and came to the conclusion that in order to work we have to aim for this plan to work. That means at least 3 fauna shamans, sylvan safekeeper and even quirion ranger along with sryb ranger.

I am a big fan of the Loyal Retainers/ Elesh Combo because my meta has a lot of Maverick and some Elves. Now the new popular deck
is U/W Miracle Top.

So how would you do your list?

Kuma
07-25-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm still running Loyal Retainers/Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, but I've moved it to the sideboard. People don't think about it, but you don't have to board in both pieces to get value. I board in Loyal Retainers but not Elesh Norn vs U/W Miracles in case they counter my Gaddock Teeg. I've also boarded in Elesh Norn without Loyal Retainers. It's not hard to cast Elesh Norn with Knight of the Reliquary/Gaea's Cradle.

The deck should probably be running more than one Fauna Shaman in any case. Fauna Shaman isn't a bad draw in multiples because you can use the extra copies to activate the one on the battlefield, and ensuring you have one makes the deck play so much better.

I'm not a fan of Green Sun's Zenithing for a Fauna Shaman. I'd rather naturally draw the Fauna Shaman and turn all my GSZs into Knights. It's also better to cast Fauna Shaman, because then you can use GSZ to get Sylvan Safekeeper/Scryb Ranger to protect/activate multiple times.

kohulk
07-27-2012, 01:56 PM
Here is a list I'm working on, unfortunately their are no big legacy tournaments in my area so that I could present some results. Overall I'm happy with what I got so far with playtesting.

4-Mother of Runes
3-Noble Hierarch
1-Birds of Paradise
1-Quirion Ranger
1-Sylvan Safekeeper
3-Fauna Shaman
2-Qasali Pridemage
3-Thalia
1-Caddock Teeg
1-Scavenging Ooze
1-Scryb Ranger
1-Loyal Retainers
1-Elesh Norn
4-Knight of the Reliquary
4-Green Sun's Zenith
4-Swords to Plowshares
2-Jitte
3-Savannah
1-Tropical Island
4-Wasteland
2-Karakas
1-Maze of Ith
4-Windswept Heath
1-Wooded Foothils
1-Verdant Catacomb
1-Dryad Arbor
1-Horizon Canopy
1-Gaea's Cradle
2-Forest
1-Plains
SB
depends but I usually keep
4-Faerie Macabre
1-Bojuga Bog
4-Spell Pierce
1-Linvala, Keeper of Silence

xiaocho
07-29-2012, 08:39 AM
Back to the basics:

Why do u guys play teeg in ur 75's?

I think teeg's performance was kinda underwhelming in the last tournament i participiated in. Ofc I'd move him to the sb. And ofc I see the point that u want to have 2 teegs against u/w miracle and perhaps against storm/engineered/wog/etc ... but u usually want teeg postboard and not preboard, do u?

BlackStarDeceiver
07-29-2012, 09:56 AM
He is ridicoulus against Blade if you can protect him, he is good against BUG and awesome against UW Miracles, where Thalia is kind of lackluster. I still like him in place of Thalia #4 because of the flexibel use and randomly shutting off key strategies as Natural Orer or the whole Storm deck.

If your Metagame is all Maverick and RUG an Goblins you obviously don't need him.

Esper3k
07-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Against control and combo, Teeg is pretty amazing. Think about UW - if you get Teeg out with a SoLS on him, they pretty much have no answers to that.

Obviously against Storm combo, he's the best hate bear.

Even post board against RUG, he's pretty good since he stops their Submerges.

Darkness
07-30-2012, 08:42 AM
Against control and combo, Teeg is pretty amazing. Think about UW - if you get Teeg out with a SoLS on him, they pretty much have no answers to that.

Obviously against Storm combo, he's the best hate bear.

Even post board against RUG, he's pretty good since he stops their Submerges.

Actually, Thalia is the hate bear that will put them in the dust. Storm combo, esp TES, will have to spend the next 2-3 turns looking for hate cards to answer your Thalia and that gives you more than enough time to put the beats down for their life total to go low enough so that they cannot Ad Nauseam. Their only option will be EtW and that is if they can actually kill the Thalia. In my experience the Maverick vs. Black Storm Combo is usually decided on turn 2-3. If a hate bear lands usually the Maverick player can win, especially with a MoM on board to protect it. Trust me I played TES for over a year, find the Thalia for that match up not the Teeg.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 08:47 AM
Actually, Thalia is the hate bear that will put them in the dust. Storm combo, esp TES, will have to spend the next 2-3 turns looking for hate cards to answer your Thalia and that gives you more than enough time to put the beats down for their life total to go low enough so that they cannot Ad Nauseam. Their only option will be EtW and that is if they can actually kill the Thalia. In my experience the Maverick vs. Black Storm Combo is usually decided on turn 2-3. If a hate bear lands usually the Maverick player can win, especially with a MoM on board to protect it. Trust me I played TES for over a year, find the Thalia for that match up not the Teeg.

You have 5 ways to get Teeg into play (4 GSZ, 1 Teeg). Teeg being green and thus tutorable via GSZ and easier to get out than Thalia makes him better.

TES & AnT have a real tough time winning under a Teeg (since they can't cast any of their win conditions or engines) other than possibly a Grapeshot kill.

Teeg also doesn't die to Dread of Night, which was played as a 4-of by the GP Ghent winning decklist.

Really, either one protected by Mom will likely buy you enough time to get them. You just have more virtual copies of Teeg than you do Thalia.

xiaocho
07-30-2012, 09:52 AM
Since I know my local meta and I know that there are just 3-4 storm combo decks (50 players in total) I'm going to move the md teeg to the sb.

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 10:29 AM
Since I know my local meta and I know that there are just 3-4 storm combo decks (50 players in total) I'm going to move the md teeg to the sb.

If there's UW control in your area, I'd also keep the Teeg main. Shutting off Terminus / Entreat / Jace are pretty big, imo.

Arsenal
07-30-2012, 10:59 AM
As a UW Miracle player, I can tell you that the only card that I care about in the Maverick matchup is Teeg (maybe Sylvan Library too). All of your other creatures can meet a swift demise in any number of ways, but Teeg literally prevents me from playing Magic until I somehow assemble 2-3x StP and/or 2-3x Snapcaster + StP (active Mom is crazy protection). When my Maverick opponent has an active Mom on board, he GSZs, and doesn't fetch Teeg, I pretty much feel invincible.

Koby
07-30-2012, 11:26 AM
As a UW Miracle player, I can tell you that the only card that I care about in the Maverick matchup is Teeg (maybe Sylvan Library too). All of your other creatures can meet a swift demise in any number of ways, but Teeg literally prevents me from playing Magic until I somehow assemble 2-3x StP and/or 2-3x Snapcaster + StP (active Mom is crazy protection). When my Maverick opponent has an active Mom on board, he GSZs, and doesn't fetch Teeg, I pretty much feel invincible.

To back this up, having Sylvan Safekeeper is also a good Teeg protection suite, since the nonly way UW Miracle deck can remove Teeg is with spot removal or Surprise Buttsecks! Snapcaster blocks. (don't let this happen please)

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 12:32 PM
To back this up, having Sylvan Safekeeper is also a good Teeg protection suite, since the nonly way UW Miracle deck can remove Teeg is with spot removal or Surprise Buttsecks! Snapcaster blocks. (don't let this happen please)

With Terminus / Top starting to see play more, I'm thinking of playing SoLS again since winning the Jitte fight seems important right now.

I do love going back to the days where blue control just loses to Teeg wielding SoLS.

Deckerator
07-30-2012, 12:44 PM
I often think about cutting Thalia because i think she isnt really necessary in my meta (a lot of maverick, uw control and a burn, a BUG) and i think i can add more useful cards.

Koby
07-30-2012, 12:49 PM
I often think about cutting Thalia because i think she isnt really necessary in my meta (a lot of maverick, uw control and a burn, a BUG) and i think i can add more useful cards.

Thalia is amazing against Burn and BUG. She's OK vs Miracles, and downright awful in the mirror.

Deckerator
07-30-2012, 12:58 PM
Yeah but BUG and Burn are just about 2-3 decks in a tournament of ~40players.
There is a lot of Maverick and some UW miracle.
Nowadays there are some Elves (dont how to play against them) and one zoo player, he is so fast everytime i play against him. had no chance.
Some enchantress is there too, find it is a hard match up too.
Have you some ideas to play best?

Esper3k
07-30-2012, 01:01 PM
Yeah but BUG and Burn are just about 2-3 decks in a tournament of ~40players.
There is a lot of Maverick and some UW miracle.
Nowadays there are some Elves (dont how to play against them) and one zoo player, he is so fast everytime i play against him. had no chance.
Some enchantress is there too, find it is a hard match up too.
Have you some ideas to play best?

If you're facing a lot of aggro, maindecking more removal (PtE or go to the PFires builds) and cutting Thalia is fine.

Enchantress is a terrible matchup regardless (although I played 1 Aura of Silence, 1 Serenity in an eTutor board to make it not as horrible), so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's a significant portion of your meta.

mini1337s
07-30-2012, 07:46 PM
So is maindeck Gaddock Teeg no longer the standard? That's sad. Teeg does work in Maverick: shuts of Ad Nauseum, shuts off Wrath of God, shuts off JtMS, Tezzeret, and Elspeth, shuts off opposing Green Sun's when you need him to, shuts off Engineered Explosives, shuts off dumb artifacts in MUD, shuts off Sneak Attack, shuts off Miracle decks, etc etc.
For real, Teegs been hollaring "fuck the police," every since I sleeved this up. I'm surprised to see him getting cut from the main for Thalia #4.

Water_Wizard
07-30-2012, 08:16 PM
So is maindeck Gaddock Teeg no longer the standard? That's sad. Teeg does work in Maverick: shuts of Ad Nauseum, shuts off Wrath of God, shuts off JtMS, Tezzeret, and Elspeth, shuts off opposing Green Sun's when you need him to, shuts off Engineered Explosives, shuts off dumb artifacts in MUD, shuts off Sneak Attack, shuts off Miracle decks, etc etc.
For real, Teegs been hollaring "fuck the police," every since I sleeved this up. I'm surprised to see him getting cut from the main for Thalia #4.

Times change, plus he locks out your own GSZ.

It may be time to bring Teeg back into the main (because of UW Miracles), but vs. RUG he does nothing (he is actually better out of the board to stop Submerge - G1 it is only FOW, which isn't that big of a threat).

ANT isn't that big, plus Thalia does a pretty good job beating ANT.

Teeg doesn't stop Reanimator. Teeg doesn't stop S&T -> Sneak Attack. Teeg does stop Through the Breach, which is why he is probably better out of the board vs. Sneak and Show (when they board S&T out for TtB, we can potentially lock them out with Teeg - their only out is bounce).

If there is any reason to put Teeg back into the main, it is Terminus. Wrath of God doesn't really see too much play anymore. Teeg is some good vs. UW. Who thought we would see the day when we are playing Teeg to stop control and not combo? Teeg used to be my go-to-guy when ANT was big. HAHA

mini1337s
07-30-2012, 09:26 PM
Times change, plus he locks out your own GSZ.

It may be time to bring Teeg back into the main (because of UW Miracles), but vs. RUG he does nothing (he is actually better out of the board to stop Submerge - G1 it is only FOW, which isn't that big of a threat).

ANT isn't that big, plus Thalia does a pretty good job beating ANT.

Teeg doesn't stop Reanimator. Teeg doesn't stop S&T -> Sneak Attack. Teeg does stop Through the Breach, which is why he is probably better out of the board vs. Sneak and Show (when they board S&T out for TtB, we can potentially lock them out with Teeg - their only out is bounce).

If there is any reason to put Teeg back into the main, it is Terminus. Wrath of God doesn't really see too much play anymore. Teeg is some good vs. UW. Who thought we would see the day when we are playing Teeg to stop control and not combo? Teeg used to be my go-to-guy when ANT was big. HAHA
Good points. I definitely agree with RUG and Reanimator, he's a dead card. I find that I have the most difficulty with wrath effects though, whether it be Terminus or WoG, so he's been my crutch for awhile. I'm going to try the 4th Thalia, and see how it plays out for a bit.

Water_Wizard
07-30-2012, 09:37 PM
Good points. I definitely agree with RUG and Reanimator, he's a dead card. I find that I have the most difficulty with wrath effects though, whether it be Terminus or WoG, so he's been my crutch for awhile. I'm going to try the 4th Thalia, and see how it plays out for a bit.

The 4th Thalia is more for stopping the quicker decks - RUG, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, etc.

If you are experiencing a lot of UW, it may be proper to run a 3/1 Thalia / Teeg split.

If UW, Goblins, and Merfolk comprise at least 25% of the new meta, I think a 3/1 split is proper because Thalia isn't going to do much against UW (taxing a 1 CC Miracle doesn't mean shit) and against Tribal, Thalia is horrible, so running 3 game 1 means less chance of dead cards sitting in your hand (although Thalia's first strike with Jitte is nice ;) ). Teeg may have some value against Merfolk and Goblins postboard, stopping Submerge and Pyrokenisis, respectively, but Thalias are definitely coming out versus Tribal for some spot removal.

Asthereal
07-31-2012, 08:01 AM
If your meta is packing lots of Enchantress and Affinity/Mud-like artifact decks, you can easily put 3 Serenity in your sideboard without the slow eTutor package. Serenity just wins those matches.

Thalia is very strong against Enchantress by the way. In that matchup it makes more sense to cut 2nd or 3rd Ooze, and the equipment package also doesn;t do that much.

ricste88
07-31-2012, 07:01 PM
Hi,
I have seen that sulfur elementak is card that is starting to be in a lot of sideobards in 2/3 copies...i think this isn't a card to umderstimate...i was thinking to put 2 copies of Mayor of Avarbuck in sideboard to counter the effects of sulfur...is even an human...so is synergic with Cavern of Souls....this is a consideretaion that i have done in reletaion to the actual general metagame...RUG Delver and RUG Tempo r played a lot, and here in Italt is even starting to be put in some snapcontrol decks.
could this be a competitive SB im this meta?:

3 Phyrexian Revoker (too strong vs S&S name Gris or sneak...strong evem agaimst Ant and Elves)
2 Choke
3Gut Shot (Against Delver and very good in mirror, jnaspected)
1 Gaddock Teeg (1 IS MD)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction (MVP against Miracle)
1 Mayor of Avarbuck

I was thinking to cut Choke and play one more Mayor and one Path to exile...Choke is not so incisive like it seems...Miracle plays 1 Glacial fortress and 2 basic plains with disemchamt post SB...
What do u think?

Koby
07-31-2012, 07:37 PM
You're better off with Honor of the Pure as a way to get around Sulfur Elemental.

Water_Wizard
07-31-2012, 09:44 PM
ditto.

Additionally, what are you going to do if Mayor of Avabruck flips?

In order for Avabruck to work:
1) He has to be in play before Sulfur Elemental. This means aggressively GSZing or Fauna Shamaning to get him into play. We have better targets to go after like Knight and Ooze.
2) Avabruck has to survive. He's a 1/1, so he's Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, and Lightning Bolt fodder. Plus he's a green creature, so he's susceptible to Submerge.
3) You have to have a STP/PTE in hand to kill the Sulfur Elemental within a turn or two of it coming into play (or before Avabruck flips, assuming he hasn't flipped already).

tonedown
08-01-2012, 03:12 AM
Don't cut choke, Choke just plain wins.

I agree with Water_Wizard on Mayor, he doesn't seem to cut it vs Sulfur Elemental, against RUG i think we want ot be GSZing with X=2 for Ooze or Scryb Ranger anyway.

Then again, I can't really say I can think of another answer to Sulfur Elemental, so do we just accept the blowout? Trying to play around it by holding cards in hand doesn't really seem to be a great stratey either...

ricste88
08-01-2012, 05:25 AM
Yes obv i have take in consideration all the things that you said about Mayor...iknow that is weak because is only a 1/1, but i play 4 mother of runes (not 3 like the GP's list) to protect it and if they bolt/submerge it they used a removal that could not go on something else like an ooze...we have to think that if we want to use a zenith for ooze we have to have 5 mana (3 for GSZ and 2 to stay out of bolt), 2 creatures in graveyard and we play anyway under Daze and PIerce....if we take ooze fast of GSZ we risk to loose it a cause of a Bolt...Canadian has no way to make card advantage, they could only cantrip, so a removal less in hand is not so bad like it seems...so this why i was thinking to put Mayor, and if he flip is not so brutal...he gives us a wolf 2/2 every turn, and the first one is put in play at the same turn as he had flip...Well I'll test it, maybe you r right and is a shit, maybe not :)...

Another intersting creatue is Daybreak Ranger (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/176a.html), but to play it we need BOP MD, to optimez it and use his ability in case of flipping.

Anyway this is my actual MD list...i have posted SB but without main list some choose could not be so clear:

2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswepth heath
2 Misty rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of souls
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Knight ofthe reliquary
4 NOble hierarch
4 Mother of runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Linvala, Keeper of silence
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last troll (it seems a shit but against Miracle isvery good, and if we have KArakas on battelfield we could stay out of Terminus, bounce it in hand and cat the turn after...Trust me, he works! :D)
1 Ulvenwald Tracker (http://magiccards.info/avr/en/200.html) (I'm testing it, is not bad but at the same time he doesn't exalt me...i use it like the 5th removal that i can tutor with GSZ, in mirror is pretty cool and if he stay alive is good even against that fucking Delver...I'll test it a little more but this could become the fourth Thalia, the second Scryb, the second library or a tech card like Daybreak Ranger (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/176a.html), in that case one hierarch will become a BoP)

4 Swords to plowshares
4 Green sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Gut Shot (http://magiccards.info/nph/en/86.html)
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Mayor of Avabruck (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/193a.html)
3 Phyrexian Revoker (http://magiccards.info/mbs/en/122.html)
2 Krosan Grip

I need to create the perfect list for Ovinogeddon, the big tournament that we have here in Italy on September (about 400/500 players) so if someone could help me I'll be greatful :).

I think our worst MU now r Miracle control and Elves, and we don't have solutions to a fast Delver, this is why i play Gut Shot in SB...I tested a lot gainst Canadian and Miracle, but i don't have tested against Elves (even if i know how that deck works because i have played it a lot of times, i made even some top8s with elves in tournament with about 100 players) and I have no idea how is the MU against Nic Fit and Reanimate, because here in my town noone play theese decks...could someone enlight me? :)

.:saturno:.
08-01-2012, 06:58 AM
hi ste,
reanimator is 50/50 matchup depends how u and ur opponent play. the score is put into play ooze before a renimate spell, however karakas help u if u dont do it. elesh norn is a problem if u go all-in, but for this and other there are plowshare that help u.

nic fit is a bad matchup. pernicius is the evil. and black titan break the ball.
post sb. with PW and pithing needle u can adjust the match.
a god card if u running again is mindcensor.

kohulk
08-02-2012, 01:21 AM
The discussion about Sulfur Elemental is old. From my experience, against RUG Thalia comes out cause it doesn't do that much and in comes PtE and/or Gut Shut. Between StP/PtE/GS the chances for a T1 delver surviving are prettey slim. After that, Tarmos and Gooses can be handled with our big creatures. I don't see the reason keeping Thalias in and taking out ...........(what actually?), for conditional cards. The closest of creatures I came to like was ulvenwald tracker, since its good against mirror and can be GSZed.

Koby
08-02-2012, 01:29 AM
Are people that retarded to bring in Gut Shot against Delvers only?
I swear, no body uses that hollow space between their ears anymore.

HoneyT
08-02-2012, 07:27 AM
Are people that retarded to bring in Gut Shot against Delvers only?
I swear, no body uses that hollow space between their ears anymore.

^ Couldn't have said it better myself. Somebody has to be blunt. Bringing in Gut Shot is far too narrow. It kills exactly one card in the deck, and that's only if it hasn't flipped already. Idk Koby, maybe they've got the sick tech for burning them out at one life?

Lans89
08-02-2012, 07:36 AM
I played RUG Tempo at the GP in Ghent. The 3th round I won game 3 vs Maverick with two flipped Delvers. After the match was over he revealed 2 useless Gutt Shots out of his hand :tongue:

Esper3k
08-02-2012, 07:50 AM
Why are people liking Gut Shot so much over PtE these days anyways? Just because the CFB list did alright at Atlanta?

Reagens
08-02-2012, 09:34 AM
Why are people liking Gut Shot so much over PtE these days anyways? Just because the CFB list did alright at Atlanta?

Because it's 'free' removal and RUG delver heavily relies on taxing counters to avoid their creatures getting the axe.
It is also quite effective in the mirror where mother of runes is key.

Personally I prefer PtE. I went 6-2-1 in Ghent with 3 on sideboard (lost my last 2 rounds :().

Koby
08-02-2012, 10:58 AM
Perhaps im not making myself clear enough.

DONT BOARD IN GUT SHOT AGAINST RUG DELVER.

It only kills one target and preflipped at that. Anecdotal evidence from a fee posts above should be reason enough to show yall why its terrible in that matchup. Against Mirror and Elves, yes its great board it in, play four if you feel so inclined.

Esper3k
08-02-2012, 11:11 AM
Because it's 'free' removal and RUG delver heavily relies on taxing counters to avoid their creatures getting the axe.
It is also quite effective in the mirror where mother of runes is key.

Personally I prefer PtE. I went 6-2-1 in Ghent with 3 on sideboard (lost my last 2 rounds :().

Yeah but against RUG you can only ever hit a preflipped Delver with it.

In the mirror, there is no countermagic to worry about so you'll always have an opportunity to hit a Mom with it before it gets active, not to mention PtE can of course deal with a Knight or Ooze.

TheXile
08-02-2012, 11:43 AM
The discussion about Sulfur Elemental is old. From my experience, against RUG Thalia comes out cause it doesn't do that much and in comes PtE and/or Gut Shut. Between StP/PtE/GS the chances for a T1 delver surviving are prettey slim. After that, Tarmos and Gooses can be handled with our big creatures. I don't see the reason keeping Thalias in and taking out ...........(what actually?), for conditional cards. The closest of creatures I came to like was ulvenwald tracker, since its good against mirror and can be GSZed.

Um..actually Thalia is BRUTAL against RUG if you are on the play. Keep in mind their deck plays around 12-13 actual threats which they need to ride to victory and with only 17-18 lands that means she thorns them for basically 1/2 their deck...and as mentioned with only 17-18 lands she can really slow them down. Yes she can't really block profitably (without a sword or active Jitte) but she is still pretty damn good against them. Now, on the play I can see potentially taking her out, given the fact that if they get their 2nd land in play they are pretty solid (and can drop their most expensive threat...Tarmogoyf).

xiaocho
08-02-2012, 01:45 PM
I'm afraid that it has been pointed out how great thalia can be against RUG. Just a few pages ago.

2 flipped delvers are quite a clock. Kinda natural that ure going to loose this match unless u get very lucky.

But I dont get why ppl keep discussing the match up against RUG. It's not a bad match up after all. I'd be glad to get to play against RUG instead of U/W Miracle, Sneak&Tell or Storm. These are - in my opinion - our worst match ups.

timmycolossus
08-02-2012, 10:27 PM
Speaking of which... What are the best cards to board in against sneak and show? There is not really anything in the primer about it so I thought I would ask. If I had 2 cards in the board I could side in and have in my hand if the show and tell what would they be? Is it humility oblivion ring revoker, ensaring bridge. I just want to eliminate the threat or stop them from attacking me. My big problem is when they show and tell progenitus. The big guy hits hard and fast.

2nd question What about u/w miracles. What are the best cards to board in against U/w miracles? Is it 2 choke, 2 krosan grip or do you guys have other cards that you know are very effective in this matchup? I already board in 1 teeg, and protect it with a sword of light and shadow. Thanks guys. Let me know what you think.

Esper3k
08-02-2012, 10:54 PM
Against Sneak and Show, I tend to like more flexible answers like O-ring or Revoker.

Against Uw Choke, Test, Thrun, etc are all good. Thorns are good, especially when stacking with Thalia.

Vandalize
08-03-2012, 12:13 AM
Hi. I've been brewing a list, could I get some advice from people here?

The list:

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Savannah
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Craddle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells [11]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard [15]
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Oblivion Ring

Maindeck flex slots are: Terravore and Linvala. Sometimes they go out for Sylvan Library #2, or another good singleton, like Sigarda (against Pox and Nic Fit) or Ulvenwald Tracker (against Merfolk and aggro in general). Terravore is there to break clogged boards with his massive body and trample. It's pretty good against RUG, I'd say better than a Knight.

Sideboard flex slots are: Grafdigger's Cage and Gaddock Teeg #2. I hate storm with all my heart, so I've build a pretty hateful sideboard: Thorn of Amethyst, Cannonist, Teeg#2, Needle and Tutors comes for the Swords to Plowshares and weak singletons, like Scryb Ranger.

By the way, Scryb Ranger is really, really fine at the moment. Blocks Delver and Clique like a champ, and untaps Knights for tricks, and Thalia for blocking.

Anyway, my only struggle, is Sneak and Show (as expected). This matchup is pretty bad, and I'd like to fit a Karakas somewhere in the maindeck, whitout messing with the curve. Should I go for the Fetchland #6 or the basic Plains? Moreover, the second Teeg is really necessary? I mean, UW Miracles is on the rise, and it wrecks them pretty bad.

Fatal
08-03-2012, 09:10 AM
Don't know is second Karakas helps against sneak. Good player will cantrip until having S&T ->Sneak->free mana.

Nice deal vs S&S is Pacekeeper specially when you have fauna shaman.

VS Miracle controls I found that Teeg + Sylvan Safekeeper is a nice combo, first fetching Sylvan Safekeeper then Teeg, second Teeg on SB would be very good if meta is infested by UW Miracles, also nice tries are Needles vs SDT, Miracle Control have problems without it.

I have also some controversive idea vs UW miracles -> Caverns and Chalice of the Void=1, wwithout recursive STP/PTE/Brainstorm UW can't do too much.

Koby
08-03-2012, 12:43 PM
I like these approaches Fatal. Good thinking there. I like Tsunami or Armageddon (Tsunami might just be better here).

@Vandalize
I've always enjoyed Terravore in metas where I anticipate a lot of Wastelands. He is indeed a house against RUG. He's very much a dud against control and combo though, and for that reason I often remove him from my list. He's very very good against Stoneblade decks in breaking through Batterskull recursion.

lambert101
08-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Here is the list I have been brewing and testing:

Main:

Dudes-
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

Spells-
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands-
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
4 Windswept heath
1 Karakas
4 Savannah

I like the two Scryb Rangers main. They block delver, add flying, and add tricks with knight.

Sideboard:
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Peacekeeper
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Gut Shot
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Choke

Fozzie
08-04-2012, 04:27 AM
[...] I have also some controversive idea vs UW miracles -> Caverns and Chalice of the Void=1, wwithout recursive STP/PTE/Brainstorm UW can't do too much.


I like these approaches Fatal. Good thinking there. I like Tsunami or Armageddon (Tsunami might just be better here). [...]

This idea has made me register and actually answer. Finally! :)

Let me just add a tiny thought to the quotes above. If you consider going the CotV route, do not lose sight of Vexing Shusher. I have surprised many a professional vintage player with CotV and Vexing Shusher and my UW miracle opponent at GP Ghent (where I only ended up 6-2-1) was quite astonished too.

Asthereal
08-04-2012, 12:00 PM
Sideboard [15]
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Oblivion Ring
Right now I advise against the eTutor package, but it's still useable.
For your toolbox: Crypt, Cage and Wheel is probably overkill. Especially since you are already packing Bog and a Crop Rotation to find it at instant speed. Cage is the first I'd cut, since it stops your own Zeniths. I would replace him with a CoP: Red. If you play a eTutor toolbox, never go without a card like that. It just single handedly destroys Burn, and it only costs you one slot. Another card always worth tying to fit in is Serenity. That card will win you the Mud, Affinity and Enchantress matchups. Especially the artifacts can be difficult to beat. Last one I'm missing is the Phyrexian Metamorph. Gives you a chance against Show and Tell (not against the Sneak Attack plan, but we have Teeg, Karakas and Needle/Revoker to stop that).

I'm also not a fan of Krosan Grip if you are already playing Oblivion Ring anyway. You could replace them with Path to Exiles, which are always nice to help in the mirror, or against heavy aggro and RUG Delver. I usually board in Paths about 50% of my games, so I never pack less than three in my 75.

So perhaps:
2 Path to Exile
2 Entlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation /15

Or perhaps you could squeeze in a Sylvan Safekeeper. That guy will help protect Teeg and such in the Combo and UW Miracles matchups.

timmycolossus
08-05-2012, 04:54 PM
Hey guys I was looking on gatherer and I saw something interesting. What do u guys think of Voidstone Gargoyle against sneak and show...

dsck
08-05-2012, 05:39 PM
Hey guys I was looking on gatherer and I saw something interesting. What do u guys think of Voidstone Gargoyle against sneak and show...

Linvala, Keeper of Silence does the same thing better.

It does hose sneak attack but so does Revoker and Pithing Needle and they cost way less to cast.

FieryBalrog
08-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Played Maverick on Sunday SCG DC to a 4-2 finish. Dropped after that as my friend wasn't doing as well and I was tired anyway.

Beat 2 Merfolk and 2 RUG in long, super complicated matches that could have gone either way. Was really satisfying to crush some blue decks. Lost to Esper Stoneblade (not a surprise, it's the matchup I playtested the most and have a lot of trouble with) and lost the mirror due to both luck and not having enough sideboard cards for the mirror (which was stupid, I saw a lot of Maverick).

Looks like combo isn't quite the big bad wolf after all, and the top 16 looks very much like a three ring circus of UW Miracle, Maverick, and RUG Delver.

My List:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scryb Ranger

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sylvan Library

4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3x Choke
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Linvala, Keeper of Secrets


MVP of the day by FAR: Scryb Ranger. What a monster of a card. Every match I won, I won on the back of this guy, often barely surviving or pulling off a win the turn before I'm dead on board. Scrybbie and Knight and Mom together beat double flipped Delver on turns 2 and 3, a board of 7 merfolk with multiple lords, etc. Jitte was a house against Merfolk.
Worst card: Fauna Shaman. I never wanted to Zenith for it, drew it once and wished I hadn't, and boarded it out in every matchup except the mirror.

KobeBryan
08-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Played Maverick on Sunday SCG DC to a 4-2 finish. Dropped after that as my friend wasn't doing as well and I was tired anyway.

Beat 2 Merfolk and 2 RUG in long, super complicated matches that could have gone either way. Was really satisfying to crush some blue decks. Lost to Esper Stoneblade (not a surprise, it's the matchup I playtested the most and have a lot of trouble with) and lost the mirror due to both luck and not having enough sideboard cards for the mirror (which was stupid, I saw a lot of Maverick).

Looks like combo isn't quite the big bad wolf after all, and the top 16 looks very much like a three ring circus of UW Miracle, Maverick, and RUG Delver.

My List:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Scavenging Ooze
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scryb Ranger

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sylvan Library

4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
3x Choke
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Linvala, Keeper of Secrets


MVP of the day by FAR: Scryb Ranger. What a monster of a card. Every match I won, I won on the back of this guy, often barely surviving or pulling off a win the turn before I'm dead on board. Scrybbie and Knight and Mom together beat double flipped Delver on turns 2 and 3, a board of 7 merfolk with multiple lords, etc. Jitte was a house against Merfolk.
Worst card: Fauna Shaman. I never wanted to Zenith for it, drew it once and wished I hadn't, and boarded it out in every matchup except the mirror.

You should thank merfolk for the lack of combo decks showing up.

FieryBalrog
08-06-2012, 07:14 PM
You should thank merfolk for the lack of combo decks showing up.

I went 3-1 in the side event and faced two combo decks. The ANT guy in round 2 fucked up his colors of mana in game 2 thanks to a Revoker on lotus petal, and killed himself with a bad Ad Nauseam in game 3 :laugh: Unfortunately my luck didn't quite hold for Belcher, I got to game 3 on the play and had a Turn 2 Thalia, except he went off on Turn 1 :frown:

But yeah.

bruizar
08-08-2012, 02:19 PM
Here is the list I have been brewing and testing:

Main:
1 Gavony Township


Can you share your experience with Gavony Township? It looks interesting to me, especially against mirrors or other grindy matches.

KobeBryan
08-08-2012, 02:34 PM
How useful is gut shot in the mirror?

The Enemy Wizard
08-08-2012, 03:35 PM
I haven't read a lot of this thread, so my question may have already been answered, but have people pretty much given up on Stoneforge Mystic? Is it too slow? take up too much space? I just don't understand, its still super powerful isn't it?

pryite199
08-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Gut shot is the nut high in the mirror. Also to the above poster I have gone back to the Stoneforge Mystic package here in recent weeks on MTGO with the upswing of tribal decks. Stoneforge just flat out eats those decks and Batterskull versus Esper is great.

delcameron
08-08-2012, 06:39 PM
I love how Maverick has remained a strong deck over the months, just with a few minor adaptations along the way.

I Gut Shot'd a Mom last night and it felt divine.

I'm curious about some sideboard choices being used nowadays. For gravehate: in the most recent SCG event, the three Mavericks who placed in the Top 8 weren't using one single Surgical Extraction. Instead, they've got 2 or 3 Faerie Macabre. (Of course they have Bojuka Bog + 0-2 Crop Rotation, and Ooze MD.) Aren't they worried about Dredge at all?

Then, for enchantment/artifact hate: why no Krosan Grips in those SCG lists? Humility is rarely seen but when it rears its head Harmonic Sliver doesn't help, and then there's the resurgence of CounterTop... Anyone else here dig KGrip over the Sliver?

KobeBryan
08-08-2012, 06:46 PM
I love how Maverick has remained a strong deck over the months, just with a few minor adaptations along the way.

I Gut Shot'd a Mom last night and it felt divine.

I'm curious about some sideboard choices being used nowadays. For gravehate: in the most recent SCG event, the three Mavericks who placed in the Top 8 weren't using one single Surgical Extraction. Instead, they've got 2 or 3 Faerie Macabre. (Of course they have Bojuka Bog + 0-2 Crop Rotation, and Ooze MD.) Aren't they worried about Dredge at all?

Then, for enchantment/artifact hate: why no Krosan Grips in those SCG lists? Humility is rarely seen but when it rears its head Harmonic Sliver doesn't help, and then there's the resurgence of CounterTop... Anyone else here dig KGrip over the Sliver?

I really like krosan grip. Especially with batterskull making a resurgence.

Esper3k
08-08-2012, 09:18 PM
The problem with Grip is that you can't tutor for it so you have to run it in multiples.

I like O-Rings myself since they're just so flexible and tutorable if you run an eTutor board.

Einherjer
08-09-2012, 06:05 AM
Hey guys I am getting back to Maverick after playing aloot with Miracle. I just built a manabase myself and wanted to double-check it with you. It's geared to beat RUG + Miracle.

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

So.. why 2 Cavern of Souls and so few Basic-Lands? First of all, when you revise all your games vs RUG you didnt exactly die because they wasted your Savannah, you died because you couldnt resolve your Knight early enough. That's why I play 2 Caverns, maybe Ill be up them to 3. Same comes for Miracle - the MU is just so plain bad - but Cavern helps alot. You simply play 1-3 creatures, force him to waste a Terminus, and keep casting more creatures then, uncounterable with Cavern.

My question: Should I cut another Canopy for a third Cavern?

Greetings

Fl0do
08-09-2012, 06:41 AM
Cut the Maze of Ith for a Dryad Arbor. Usually 2 Caverns are enough, depends on your metagame I think.

Esper3k
08-09-2012, 09:27 AM
I'd cut a Savannah or a Canopy for the Dryad Arbor. With 6 fetches, you can easily find a Savannah.

mishima_kazuya
08-09-2012, 11:30 AM
Hey guys I am getting back to Maverick after playing aloot with Miracle. I just built a manabase myself and wanted to double-check it with you. It's geared to beat RUG + Miracle.

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

So.. why 2 Cavern of Souls and so few Basic-Lands? First of all, when you revise all your games vs RUG you didnt exactly die because they wasted your Savannah, you died because you couldnt resolve your Knight early enough. That's why I play 2 Caverns, maybe Ill be up them to 3. Same comes for Miracle - the MU is just so plain bad - but Cavern helps alot. You simply play 1-3 creatures, force him to waste a Terminus, and keep casting more creatures then, uncounterable with Cavern.

My question: Should I cut another Canopy for a third Cavern?

Greetings

I count 21 actual lands. You should just cut a spell to add a Dryad Arbor.

mini1337s
08-09-2012, 12:51 PM
The manabase usually works out to:

4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
2x-3x Forest
1x-2x Cavern of Souls
1x-2x Misty Rainforest (or other green fetch)
1x-2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor

I'm running that with 3x Forest, 2x Cavern, and 1x Horizon.

Koby
08-09-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm running that with 3x Forest, 2x Cavern, and 1x Horizon.

I'm running that with 2 Forest, 1 Caverns, 2 Horizon Canopy, 1 Gaea's Cradle (which is a sub for Forest)

FieryBalrog
08-09-2012, 02:47 PM
You don't even need 4 Savannah in my experience, though I do run 4 because it is of course a little better because of turn 1 access to both mom & hierarch. But I'm almost always operating on 2-3 basics and a specialty land or two.

Einherjer
08-09-2012, 03:15 PM
I am so sorry guys. Obviously I was playing a Dryad Arbor..but had it labelled as "creature" in my decklists :(
I did cut a Canopy for a 3rd Cavern and did some testing today vs RUG and Miracle.

Well.... all I can say is that I dont think that I'd ever go below 2 Caverns. 3 were fine most of the time and made Miracle an do-able match and RUG def. favorable!

Greetings

mini1337s
08-09-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm running that with 2 Forest, 1 Caverns, 2 Horizon Canopy, 1 Gaea's Cradle (which is a sub for Forest)
I tried 2 Forest, 2 Caverns, 1 Canopy, and a Cradle for awhile, but the cradle kept putting me in awkward positions. Cradle was really only good when I was already ahead, wheras the additional Forest was always useful.

I've found I prefer having a chance at Cavern early on as opposed to searching it up with a KoTR, but I supposed it's all just personal preference.

door
08-11-2012, 08:08 AM
My current list:

4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Savannah
1 Forest (3)
1 Plains (3)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I Know it isn´t the typical list, but I guess i am skilled with maverick, because i have played all possible versions ands cards since his creation in 2010, with very good results.


I finally tried your list yesterday during local regular legacy. While I was still sceptical about some cards at the stage of sleeving the deck, it felt decent during all the event.
As a result I went 4-0 and the pairings were:
2-0 against Nic Fit
2-0 against U/R Jace-Splinter twin combo-control
2-1 against Reanimator
2-0 against Solidarity

However I could not resist making some changes in the list according to the local scene and my preferences. I played with the following list:

Lands (I'm still suspicious about Cavern of Souls and have not purchased it yet. I added Bojuka as playing with 4 KotR and Wayfarers I'd like to have more land tricks)

4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Weathered Wayfarer - I'm new to playing with this guy so decided to try 2 of them as a first step and then see if the 3rd one is needed
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Birds of Paradise - now I fully confirm that birds are better than Hierarchs here
2 Phyrexian Revoker - only 2, because needed space for Thalias
2 Thalia, Guardan of Thraben - half of our meta is really afraid of her (burn, heavy control and combo), so decided to move it back into the deck
1 Scryb Ranger - we don't have much of delvers and merfolks lately
1 Eternal Witness - I just don't like this creature and decided to play only 1. Too situational for me while ooze is still popular
1 Gaddock Teeg - this old man is fearsome to a decent number of decks. Didn't have enough courage to play without it

Spells

1 Eladamri's Call - it seemed that I needed smth like this as I diluted some consistency of the deck and needed those singletons work. It appeared to be fantastic with Aether Vial and added the versatility that I wanted to have
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull - too much burn lately so I had to play this one
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard

1 Gaddock Teeg (should be 2 but I didn't think I'd play 3 ever, as a result I don't own a third one...:frown:)
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction +1 GY hate card in MD -1 in SB. Also I don't think I would side in more than 2 surgicals against miracles
1 Faerie Macabre can be found with El.Call
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence - it seems that the deck can't offer elves anything
but revokers. Also I was not comfortable with mirror match.
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Dismember - same as Linvala
1 Thorn of Amethyst - I wanted smth which would be good against burn, combo and miracles. Decided to try this. Sometimes I wish Thalia was not legendary...

So playing with vials was beyond the imagination. Though sometimes I wished for a third Sylvan Library to filter them out in the middle game :wink:
Wayfarer appeared ok, but this guy seems to be very skill-intensive. I'm not sure I'm ready to play 3 of them. Also any tips on when to side out them would be appreciated.
Overall I'm happy I've finally tried the list and now this is my deckchoice for a while, that's for sure :smile:
Please tell me if some of my decisions seem weird or not optimal.

KevinTrudeau
08-11-2012, 09:15 AM
@door- should you wish to run three basics in M@verick's shell, it's not even close how much better the second Plains would be than a second Forest; it is a white-based shell, after all, as opposed to the heavily green-based GSZ Maverick lists. The only times I even want Forest are against Wasteland recursion decks or when chaining with (pumping) Knight, as the final green source in the chain. Honestly though, two basics is more than enough; the foundational Plains is really the only basic you truly need. Plains+Savannah as the turn two quintessential GW is going to be better a very large percent of the time over Plains+Forest, regardless if they have Wasteland or not. I'd definitely just jam in that fourth Savannah before a third basic.

Very common occurrence to look out for with Wayfarer on the play is in tandem with Birds and a sacrifice-able land; t1 cast one of the two one-drops, turn two the other (with, say, a Savannah and a Windswept Heath in play at that point, although Canopy also works for certain purposes in certain situations), turn three sac the Heath, activate Wayfarer, grab, say, Cavern to cast your uncounterable Knight/Mystic, or grab Wasteland to get their one untapped blue source and cast an un-Spell Pierce-able Sylvan Library. Obviously, you can naturally activate Wayfarer on the draw turn two, absent of Birds, with Heath+stable turn one white source (Plains if you can, although Savannah is going to be better in a lot of situations even if it means they can Waste you).

Eladamri's Call seems decent enough in the Vial shell (seems decisively better than GSZ), hope it turns out well in testing.

Glad you agree on Birds>Hierarch in this shell, as well as Library as a two-of.

M@verick
08-11-2012, 09:48 AM
If your meta is full of combo and burn, thalia is a nice choice. I just side in agasint this kind of decks.

As kevintrudeau said, fourth savannah is much better than the second forest, we dont need it.

I havent tested eldamri´s call, perhaps it is a good substitute for the second eternal or scryb ranger, but remember we dont play GSZ, so we cant look for these cards. The same for gaddock, 1-of is not enough, so i play many of them on sb in the match ups that I need.

the most important thing. Play sowrd of X/X over batterskull. I like F/I. Is kinda better.
On burn or UR MUs the sword is also very good, and much better in all other pairings.

Try also the third revoker. Is incredible agasint all decks, but RUG

Justin
08-11-2012, 07:32 PM
I thought I'd shift gears a bit and talk about playing the deck, rather than what cards should fill out a particular list. One thing, in particular that I was thinking about is whether to play Noble Hierarch or Mother of Runes on turn one if you have both cards in hand with a Savannah. On the play, against an unknown deck, I always drop Hierarch first because I feel that early mana acceleration is more valuable than protection. However, with more information there are instances in which I prefer to drop a turn one Mother, even with Hierarch in hand. One example, is when I have a Thalia or other "hate bear" in hand that will really punish an opposing deck (such as Storm Combo). Another example, is if a deck is playing a card like Fire/Ice or Forked Bolt. It's better to play Mother first to draw out the removal spell as a 1 for 1, instead of playing Hierarch followed by Mother and getting two for oned. If I'm on the draw and know the opponent is playing Daze. I'll cast the spell that I least mind seeing countered on my turn one. Are there any other tips that people can add for playing properly on turn one? What decks do you favor casting a turn one Mother over a Hierarch when you have that choice?

TarmoX
08-12-2012, 09:50 AM
I thought I'd shift gears a bit and talk about playing the deck, rather than what cards should fill out a particular list. One thing, in particular that I was thinking about is whether to play Noble Hierarch or Mother of Runes on turn one if you have both cards in hand with a Savannah. On the play, against an unknown deck, I always drop Hierarch first because I feel that early mana acceleration is more valuable than protection. However, with more information there are instances in which I prefer to drop a turn one Mother, even with Hierarch in hand. One example, is when I have a Thalia or other "hate bear" in hand that will really punish an opposing deck (such as Storm Combo). Another example, is if a deck is playing a card like Fire/Ice or Forked Bolt. It's better to play Mother first to draw out the removal spell as a 1 for 1, instead of playing Hierarch followed by Mother and getting two for oned. If I'm on the draw and know the opponent is playing Daze. I'll cast the spell that I least mind seeing countered on my turn one. Are there any other tips that people can add for playing properly on turn one? What decks do you favor casting a turn one Mother over a Hierarch when you have that choice?

Different situations require the better choice; in general depends by starting 7 if i need to accel on turn 2 for huge threat (cast Hierarch) or opt to defensive creature play (cast mother). Mother and Hierarch may be used to bait counter if you have other bullet to cast later and left behind your opponent!
I see Mother turn one better vs deck like:
Burn
Goblins
Mirror
Zoo

Hope i wrote in good English ;)

door
08-13-2012, 09:48 AM
If your meta is full of combo and burn, thalia is a nice choice. I just side in agasint this kind of decks.

As kevintrudeau said, fourth savannah is much better than the second forest, we dont need it.

I havent tested eldamri´s call, perhaps it is a good substitute for the second eternal or scryb ranger, but remember we dont play GSZ, so we cant look for these cards. The same for gaddock, 1-of is not enough, so i play many of them on sb in the match ups that I need.

the most important thing. Play sowrd of X/X over batterskull. I like F/I. Is kinda better.
On burn or UR MUs the sword is also very good, and much better in all other pairings.

Try also the third revoker. Is incredible agasint all decks, but RUG

Yesterday played a tournament with some judge foils in prizes.
The list stayed the same, though I understand all the drawbacks of having singletones. Except that I turned 2nd forest into 2nd plains (I own only 3 savannas).
Sb:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Dismember
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor

I was extremely unlucky with my pairings but fought my way into t8:
round 1: 1-1-1 against Junk
round 2: 1-1-1 against elves
round 3: 2-0 against UR painter
round 4: 2-0 against Solidarity
round 5: id after carefuly counting my chances

Playing against elves was like running from hell. In g1 I kept these 5: Gaea's Cradle, Wasteland, Vial, Mystic, Wayfarer. Opp fizzles in his turn 2. My next turn wayfarer with jitte crushes him and I win g1 with this weird hand. After sb it was 50/50 and I would win g3 unless time ended.

In top8 I was unfortunately paired against my friend and teammate, who was also playing Vial Maverick founded on M@verick's list from this topic. The day before we were preparing together. He was playing a slightly different list and a completely unusual sideboard. As a result he played 3-1-1 in swiss.
His list compared to mine:
4 birds
3 revokers
3 thalias
2 scrybs
2 witness
3 kotrs
1 rishadan port
- e-call
- 2 sylvans
- gaddock
- 1 fetch
His sb was full of surprises including 2 crop rotations, the tabernacle and some other stuff...
I decided to concede as he had more chances against dredge and nic fit which also featured in t8. As a result he split the finals.

A nice trick I found playing with wayfarers when you have equal number of lands with your opponent: Take mana into pool, activate scryb targeting wayfarer, activate wayfarer with the mana, search land, resolve scryb's ability untapping wayfarer.

@@ regarding strategies: I may say an obvious thing, but besides your opponent's deck it always depends on what else you have in hand - see your local game plan. Whether you need to lure stp/counterspell on your mother to protect your next turn KoTR, or play non basics to give them to opponent's wastelands because you are flooded and hope to slow down his developing in such a way, or smth else..

I once had such situation against bant: my starting hand (zenith build): mother of runes, stp, hierarch, wasteland, gw fetch. My opponent opens with tropic -> hierarch. How would you play? I played fetch into plains, stp his hierarch. My decision was that the next turn I play wasteland, mother, waste his dual land, and hope that I have enough time to find a green source before he can stabilize. So my local game plan was to screw him and obtain mother of runes which would protect my future hierarch, thus keeping him from screwing me. I believe that all the mirror and pseudo-mirror games depend mostly on winning the resource race (like it always was in good old Warcraft2). From the other side a single daze would ruin all my plans...

Mkr
08-13-2012, 12:05 PM
What do you guys usually board vs Miracles? Went to a 65-ish player tournament yesterday and I wasn't able to reach the T8 because of two blowouts against UWx Miracles.

My current SB is as follows:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg (1 in MD)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (1 in MD)
1 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Harmonic Sliver

Thinking of putting 2 Krosan Grip in. Should I bring back Choke?

Koby
08-13-2012, 12:39 PM
What do you guys usually board vs Miracles? Went to a 65-ish player tournament yesterday and I wasn't able to reach the T8 because of two blowouts against UWx Miracles.

Thinking of putting 2 Krosan Grip in. Should I bring back Choke?

They anticipate Enchantments/Artifact hate. Try Tsunami or Armageddon.

Esper3k
08-13-2012, 12:40 PM
What do you guys usually board vs Miracles? Went to a 65-ish player tournament yesterday and I wasn't able to reach the T8 because of two blowouts against UWx Miracles.

My current SB is as follows:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg (1 in MD)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (1 in MD)
1 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Harmonic Sliver

Thinking of putting 2 Krosan Grip in. Should I bring back Choke?

Choke is great against those blue control decks, especially ones that have to durdle around with Top.

Einherjer
08-13-2012, 01:12 PM
Choke is nice, but not the real answer. Let me tell you how to beat Miracle ( I play both decks, Maverick and Miracle )

Firstly you have to play 2 Cavern of Souls as a minimum. 3 might be the better choice in an UW Miracle-infected Meta. Obviously you name Human. Secondly you have to play Planeswalker. Not out of the Sideboard, mainboard them. My current list plays 1 Garruk Relentless and 1 Elspeth, Knight - Errant mainboard, those are boss against Miracle.

Out of the Sideboard Pithing Needle sounds like the best choice, obviously Chokes come in, but you will rarely win a game with them ( I hardly lost to Choke with my UWr version of Miracle ). You can board Armageddon effects and stuff, they are very strong if they resolve, but I do not have space in my sideboard for them.


Greetings

dsck
08-13-2012, 02:19 PM
They anticipate Enchantments/Artifact hate. Try Tsunami or Armageddon.

This. Planeswalkers seem quite good too, but then you should have some plan for entreat (engineered explosives?).

Einherjer
08-13-2012, 02:21 PM
This. Planeswalkers seem quite good too, but then you should have some plan for entreat (engineered explosives?).

Maverick does not have a decent plan against Angels. It does not need to have one. Angels is only good if the Miracle-player can set it up while being safe. When we force him to spend all his ressources on answering our Planeswalkers or playing around our Caverns Angels shouldnt be a real threat any more. And if they have the lucky Angel in Turn15 we die. That's fine. Bad MU is bad, but it gets alot better with Planeswalkers/Cavern Mainboard.

Greetings

Esper3k
08-13-2012, 03:50 PM
Really, our main plan against UW Miracles should be:

1) Resolve Gaddock Teeg
2) Protect him
3) ???
4) Profit

Einherjer
08-13-2012, 04:32 PM
Really, our main plan against UW Miracles should be:

1) Resolve Gaddock Teeg
2) Protect him
3) ???
4) Profit

Correct. But this plan is...not very realistic. Miracle is aware of this fact and will try to get rid of Teeg or make sure he doesn't even enter the battlefield. If this stays your only way of victory vs Miracle - good luck.

Greetings

Koby
08-14-2012, 01:29 AM
"One of my main concerns going into this tournament was making the deck better against Stoneblade and U/W Control. Unfortunately, I wasn't sure how to go about doing that. Fortunately, I was able to briefly talk to two of the best pilots around to get their take on the matchups. Reid Duke said that the cards that were hardest to play against out of Maverick for Control were Gaddock Teeg and Armageddon. Ben Friedman echoed those cards for Stoneblade, although with less emphasis on Teeg. With their feedback, I was happy to slot one Teeg for the main and two Armageddons for the board."

As written by Orrin Beasley in his SCG DC tournament report (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24688-SCG-Legacy-Open-Washington-DC-3rd.html). He writes about how to improve the UW control/Stoneblade matchup.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
08-14-2012, 01:57 AM
"One of my main concerns going into this tournament was making the deck better against Stoneblade and U/W Control. Unfortunately, I wasn't sure how to go about doing that. Fortunately, I was able to briefly talk to two of the best pilots around to get their take on the matchups. Reid Duke said that the cards that were hardest to play against out of Maverick for Control were Gaddock Teeg and Armageddon. Ben Friedman echoed those cards for Stoneblade, although with less emphasis on Teeg. With their feedback, I was happy to slot one Teeg for the main and two Armageddons for the board."

As written by Orrin Beasley in his SCG DC tournament report (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24688-SCG-Legacy-Open-Washington-DC-3rd.html). He writes about how to improve the UW control/Stoneblade matchup.

This can't be right. Your name isn't listed anywhere. Don't they know you're the grandfather of Maverick?

Gaddock Teeg + Sylvan Safekeeper.

rnightingale
08-14-2012, 02:20 AM
Green Sun for Gaddock Teeg is good against UW miracles with Counterbalance in play

Deckerator
08-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Is it possible to play a deck like this? I know a few changes had to be done.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
3 Vengevine
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

Esper3k
08-14-2012, 08:45 AM
If you're going that heavily on the Fauna Shaman plan, I'd probably just cut the SFM package for the 4th GSZ, Vengevine, a Basking Rootwalla, and a Scryb / Quirion Ranger.

Koby
08-14-2012, 08:49 AM
Cool! You took out the best card, added useless Goyfs and make it possible to blow you out with Surgical. Its playable, but its terrible.

Deckerator
08-14-2012, 09:37 AM
This is an old Version.

Changes:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Sword of Firee and Ice
-3 Horizon Canopy

+2 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Scryb Ranger
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Basking Rootwalla
+1 Lightning Greaves ?
maybe 2 Sylvan library and the fourth Venevine?

@ Koby: What is the best card?

Tammit67
08-14-2012, 11:41 AM
@ Koby: What is the best card?

My money's on Thalia. She's insane

Deckerator
08-14-2012, 11:54 AM
I domt know why but im not a real fan of thalia. It is often that i hope more than she really does. I play only in a small tournament with ~40 players.
A lot of them playing G/W. There is really less Combo. In my opinion Thalia is only good in Combo. In other match-ups she is...mhm let's say...ok but nothing more. The opponent doesnt really often cares about this 1 mana he has to pay more. I think i can add more useful cards than Thalia to this deck. Cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Thrun, Eternal Witness. Or play with the Punishing/Grove combo.
I never had the feeling that Thalia feels really good for me.

Tammit67
08-14-2012, 12:19 PM
I domt know why but im not a real fan of thalia. It is often that i hope more than she really does. I play only in a small tournament with ~40 players.
A lot of them playing G/W. There is really less Combo. In my opinion Thalia is only good in Combo. In other match-ups she is...mhm let's say...ok but nothing more. The opponent doesnt really often cares about this 1 mana he has to pay more. I think i can add more useful cards than Thalia to this deck. Cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Thrun, Eternal Witness. Or play with the Punishing/Grove combo.
I never had the feeling that Thalia feels really good for me.

She is very good in matchups other than combo though. She really hurts RUG in thresh's capacity to cantrip to answers or tap out for a threat with either daze/force for protection. She slows down swords+snapcaster+swords chains, and is in general a kink in the works for a lot of control cards (miracles not withstanding). Dredge similarly can't muscle through her, in both due to the taxing effect and the first strike.

She is just incredibly solid and disruptive to your opponents while having little impact on yourself. I think you'll regret it in the long run should you ever move out of this 40 player scene you describe.

Koby
08-14-2012, 03:04 PM
@ Koby: What is the best card?

Knight of the Reliquary. You're only playing 2. If your metagame really is overrun with G/W, then ya Thalia doesn't make sense.

If you wanted a Vengevine deck, play Vengevine Elves. At least its faster and still plays 4 Wasteland. Or Elf combo, and just ignore fair decks.

Deckerator
08-14-2012, 04:57 PM
I wrote a change to this list some posts later.
Yeah i hope it is in a way possible to play Fauna Shaman/Loyal Retainers/Vengevine. In one deck (and maybe with a maverick shall)

kingtk3
08-16-2012, 06:32 AM
Hi to all,
I'm preparing for a medium sized tournament (30-40 players) next sunday and I would like some advice. The meta seems very wide since last top 8 has
been goblin, merfolk, uwb blade, loam, mage uwb, affinity, thopter and urg.

I'm thinking about maverick since it should have a positive matchup against those decks, in particular:
even vs goblin (not sure here, I've never played vs gobs with maverick)
good vs merfolk
good vs uwb blade
bad vs loam
good vs mage uwb
good vs affinity (if they aren't explosive)
bad vs thopter
good vs rug
Please tell me if I'm mistaken on some matchup.

The last list I played is the following:

creatures 25
4 mother of runes
4 knight of the reliquary
4 noble hierarch
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 scavenging ooze
2 qasali pridemage
2 fauna shaman
1 gaddock teeg
1 scryb ranger
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

instants 4
4 swords to plowshares

sorceries 4
4 green sun's zenith

enchantments 2
2 sylvan library

artifacts 2
2 umezawa's jitte

lands 23
4 savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 forest
1 plains
1 dryad arbor
1 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 Gavony Township
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
2 cavern of souls
2 karakas

sideboard 15
3 path to exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 choke
1 stony silence
1 tormod's crypt
1 ethersworn canonist
1 bojuka bog
1 crop rotation
1 phyrexian metamorph
2 faerie macabre

I would like to up to 3 the ooze since they can beat every recursion deck and are also very good vs rug.
What are your thoughts on the deck, and what advice can you give me?

Koby
08-16-2012, 11:56 AM
I would recommend -1 Fauna Shaman in your deck. Also, be aware of how many colorless lands you're playing. It will effect your consistency greatly, and may cause some unwanted mulligans.

KobeBryan
08-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Is it enough gy hate to go 1 crop rotation, 1 tormod's crypt and a bog?

Einherjer
08-16-2012, 05:10 PM
Is it enough gy hate to go 1 crop rotation, 1 tormod's crypt and a bog?

Do not forget the Faerie.

KobeBryan
08-16-2012, 06:09 PM
Do not forget the Faerie.

ahh the 2/2 idiot thats uncounterable.

matunos
08-16-2012, 08:02 PM
Is it enough gy hate to go 1 crop rotation, 1 tormod's crypt and a bog?

Don't forget Ooze. (Or were you only referring to the SB?)

matunos
08-16-2012, 08:08 PM
ahh the 2/2 idiot thats uncounterable.

Uncounterability is nice, as is the two targets, but is it better/more versatile than Surgical Extraction? The former does little against Intuition plays.

kingtk3
08-16-2012, 08:21 PM
Uncounterability is nice, as is the two targets, but is it better/more versatile than Surgical Extraction? The former does little against Intuition plays.

That is true, but the faerie can be tutored with fauna shaman, and in general against dredge and reanimator it's better to choose different targets

Einherjer
08-17-2012, 04:12 AM
Uncounterability is nice, as is the two targets, but is it better/more versatile than Surgical Extraction? The former does little against Intuition plays.

As an former Show and Tell player I keep to cry when an Intuition gets hit by an Extraction. On a higher level of Legacy this should not happen. Never.

Greetings

tonedown
08-17-2012, 04:39 AM
Why the maindeck Linvala, I find she's only really good in the Mirror (and vs Elves, but in that matchup you rarely have time to cast her), a lot of the time she's simply an overpriced flyer.

Einherjer
08-17-2012, 04:50 AM
Why the maindeck Linvala, I find she's only really good in the Mirror (and vs Elves, but in that matchup you rarely have time to cast her), a lot of the time she's simply an overpriced flyer.

Linvala has some more applications. It's bigger than Delver of Secrets and Nimble Mongoose. Yes she costs alot and stuff but there is always the situation where you get into the lategame and need to draw an out against these. Linvala can do that. In addition to this, Linvala can be put into play via Show and Tell, and let me tell you, she fucks Griselbrand pretty well.

But, to be honest, I wouldn't play here aswell. Was just saying what else she is good at.

Greetings

tonedown
08-17-2012, 05:01 AM
Greetings to you too.

If there's a lot of RUG in your meta I'd just play a second Scryb Ranger over Linvala. It blocks delver all day and can carry a Jitte over the head of goose. Another interesting option for the Linvala-slot is Captain Sisay. She's a decent 4drop, can be tutored for with GSZ and herself tutors for Jitte, Thalia, Karakas, Teeg, postboard Linvala etc etc.

Einherjer
08-17-2012, 05:39 AM
Greetings to you too.

If there's a lot of RUG in your meta I'd just play a second Scryb Ranger over Linvala. It blocks delver all day and can carry a Jitte over the head of goose. Another interesting option for the Linvala-slot is Captain Sisay. She's a decent 4drop, can be tutored for with GSZ and herself tutors for Jitte, Thalia, Karakas, Teeg, postboard Linvala etc etc.

I agree with you, and I already am playing a second Ranger Mainboard. As said, I wouldnt play Linvala, nor would I play Fauna Shaman. I just tried to state what she can do. I am not a friend of Captain Sisay to be honest, she's pretty much the same as Fauna Shaman. Slow. I do not think we can really afford those situational slow cards nowadays.

Greetings

tonedown
08-17-2012, 05:53 AM
Philip: I seem to have mistakenly convinced myself that you were the one posting the decklist. As that isn't the case, let's agree to agree.

On another note, a fellow maverick player in our meta tried maindecking 4 Qasali Ambushers. I was a bit hesitant, but agreed that the novelty of it probably caused a blowout or two. Beyond the surprise value, do you think the idea has merit?

Mkr
08-17-2012, 07:00 AM
Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

Here is my new list. Local metagame for tournaments with 60+ attendance is currently RUG/Miracle/Blade then all the other decks.

Main:
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswepth Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Fauna Shaman

Side:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Armageddon

I'm looking to replace the Fauna Shaman in the main since I removed Linvala already (maybe putting her in the side though). Any comments?

tonedown
08-17-2012, 07:14 AM
That looks like a nice list. My only question is why you aren't playing Choke in your SB? It's really good vs RUG and great vs UW.

As for the Shaman, replace it with a 2nd Ranger or a maindeck Teeg (to combat Miracles).

Koby
08-17-2012, 10:33 AM
Your list needs one more land to support planeswalkers under Thalia.

IL_casual
08-18-2012, 01:35 PM
I just came from a tournament here in our LGS and Im quite happy with my 4-1-0 standing. First off, my decklist is below .

Creatures
23 Creatures


4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, GUardian of Thraben

Lands
23 Lands
4 Wastelands
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
1 dryad Arbor

Spells
14
Sorcery
4 Green Sun Zenith

Artifacts
1 Jitte
1 Sword of light and shadow

Planeswalker
1 Garruk, the Relentless

Enchantment
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
Side Board

1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Aethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Extile
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Peacekeeper


I went with the Stoneforge mystic package with a singleton jitte and Sols because I want the option to fetch the Solas if I need it more than the Jitte. Equipping the sols frees up my mom to protect other creatures since Solas protects my creature from STP and paths and makes my creatures unreachable from bolts.

I didn’t play fauna shaman because she’s too slow for when I need her ability.

2 Scryb Rangers seems to be the right amount for this Meta since RUG is still rampant and her ability to interact with most of my creatures (KoTR, Mom, Noble Heirarch) is just incredible. I might even keep her on 2 MB even if the meta shifts again. That’s how good she is.

-Squeezing an extra 2 mana on your returned land + untapped hierarch
- Wastelanding an opponent twice with KoTR
- Untapping Mom for double protection.

I feel that Sylvan library should really be a 2 of since most the time, unless you’re against a true beatdown deck, you can afford to take 4 life per turn just to get the most out of your deck. And with the help of SolS and Jitte, life is not that much of a problem.

Sideboards
I feel that my sideboard has covered most of Mavericks weakness against other decks. The most underwhelming card for me is Peacekeeper although I haven’t faced a reanimator or a show and tell deck to warrant her removal.

Tournament report

1st Dredge 2—0
Scavenging Ooze really hurts this deck. I landed this on turn 2 from a GSZ with Noble hierarch and just exiled most of his cards, making sure I leave a mana open for those dread Return targets.
G2: +1 Bokuja bog, +1 Crop Rotation, +2 Surgical extraction .
Wait until the very last moment before you play your Bojuka Bog. I don’t think your opponent can ever recover from a resolved bog.


2nd Game: UW Delver 2—0
G2: +2 Path to exiles, +2 Chokes, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Garruk the relentless,-2 Qasali Pridemage
This seems like a standard deck morphed into a Legacy deck by just adding duals and legacy based counterspells. Other than that, you play the same as how you would play against a UR deck. Keep them mana locked with Reliquary and try to resolve Thalia on them. After you’ve cleared their early Delvers with STP’s or Paths, the deck would eventually run out of gas and you can plow your way thru with Kotr.

3rd: RUG Control 1-2
This is my only loss for the remainder of the tournament. I wasn’t expecting a RUG deck packing in Grim Lavamancers and Jaces. On his 1st few turns he was bolting me and stifling my spells, typically how a RUG deck plays out. But when the Grims came out, I knew this would means trouble for my army. In the end, Jace’s ultimate literally sealed my fate(pun intended).
Notes: As always, play choke if an opponent has islands.

4th RBU Grixis Delver
This deck looks like a RUG deck but instead of playing mongoose and goyfs, the deck would pack in disruption and more removals.
Rule number 1, play your outs! Even if you feel that the game is definitely not in your favor, play it out, you’ll never know how a resolved KotR could absolutely turn a match around.
G2: +2 Surgical , +2 Choke , +2 PIthing Needle , -2 Qasali Pridemage, -2 Noble Hierarch ,- 1 Gaddock Teeg, - 1 Garruk, the Relentless
I know that this build would play perishes and massacres on top of the ubiquitous submerges blue uses vs Green. I was lucky enough that when he submerged my Mom after making me protect her from a bolt, I was able to surgical extract all his submerges. An early wasteland from me severely limited his action every turn until he was eventually overcome by pumped KoTRs

5th: UW Thoptor Combo
I really wasn’t able to see his deck on both game 1 and game 2. If you see a counterbalance in play, try to play a KOTR as soon as possible since 3cc cards for him are difficult to counter. Another thing, when Zenithing for a creature , try to cast it as high as you can afford to play around counterbalance.
An ensnaring bridge prevented me from attacking with my KotR until I was able to GSZ in a qasali pridemage and attacked for lethal.
G2: +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Surgical Extract, +2 Choke . -4 STP, -1 PtE, -1 Mother of runes
Game 2 I removed all of my creature removals to add in my anti combo cards. I was able to resolve a T1 Pithing Needle naming Top. He was never the same again.

Side Notes and questions:
Is Fauna Shaman really necessary? For players who use it, have ou ever GSZ’d for it? I see some of its merits and ill playtest it in a few days , maybe by removing 1 Scryb ranger or a stoneforge mystic.
Is Gaea’s cradle just a win more card?
Is Armageddon really better than choke for the UW miracle matchups? A resolved geddon rocks both our worlds but I would expect a miracle deck with a top on board at this stage of the match, helping him find mana faster than me.

Thanks for reading guys.

feline
08-18-2012, 05:20 PM
Well, I have now completed my 8th deck for type 1.5, I started playing the format just about 1 year ago after not playing magic for a few years, before that it was type 2 like crazy from Onslaught -to- Lorwyn, in either case, my 8th deck, is Maverick. >^,^<

Based on the past few Starcity top 16's, I put about 10 Maverick decklists together and compared notes, making an average that lead me to this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Plains
3 Forest


All my other deck's would probably not be considered tier 1, since I consider the tier 1 decks to be Rug, Maverick, & Stoneblade at the moment, this is a deck however that isn't going anywhere anytime soon and the more powerful creatures that come out, the possibility of this deck only becoming more prevalent is, a possibility. Off the subject though, goblins did make Deck to beat for the month of July, and I guess Dredge keeps going back and forth with Deck to beat / Not a deck to beat, so I have those deck's as well but I would consider them more tier 1.5, higher than tier 2 decks but not quite as ominous as the 3 tier 1 decks.

kai_nsane
08-18-2012, 05:23 PM
Hey Guys,

in 3 Weeks i'm going to go to play my first Legacy tournament with 23 opponents.
I'm training with MWS, because i haven't other players in my hometown. I want to show my build, so you can give me tips, please.

I hope thats okay.

First the decklist and then the declaration to the choices.

List:
24 Creatures:
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scryb Ranger

13 Spells:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Batterskull
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed


24 Lands:
4x Wastelands
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
2x Forest
1x Gaeas Cradle
61 cards

Sideboard:
1x Gaddock teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Path to Exile
15 cards

Now I'm going to explain the Choices:
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg

This are the Core-Creatures. I think this are fix.

1x Thrun, the Last Troll - I'm not sure if he's the best choice? I see many tournament lists without Trun. Why? Is he to slow? Would you exchange him?

2x Stoneforge Mystic - I'm not sure if SFM 2 times is the right choice? 3rd Turn Batterskull is very nice and hard to handle for many Decks. So i don't know, why many tournament list play with only 1 SFM and without Batterskull. Can you explain me that, please?

1x Scryb Ranger - I like the tricks with Mother, KotR, Noble. I think 1 is enogh, because it's tutorable with GSZ. Against Delver its good to have him in the Deck.

Spells:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte

This Spells are fix. I think they need no explanation.

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed

I think the Planeswalker are good against UWMiracle. I think the Speed up the Game with many Tokens.

1x Sword of Light and Shadow - I think next to the Jitte it's the best Equip, because prot white against StP and PtE. Would you play another Sword?
1x Batterskull - Very good with 2nd turn SFM. Many Lists play without it. Can you explain why, please?

Lands:
The Lands are fix. I'm not sure with Gaeas Cradle. Would you play it? Why - Why not?
4x Wastelands - I haven't Wastelands, so im going to play Ghost Quarter. I think thats the best replacement, till i have money to buy me wastelands.

Sideboard:
1x Gaddock teeg - Against Combo and Miracle
1x Bojuka Bog - Against Dredge and Reanimator
2x Krosan Grip - Against Cursed Totem and CB-SDT Combo. Against Stoneblade equip.
3x Pithing Needle - Against Planeswalkers, Artifact mana in Storm Decks, Sneak Atack
3x Ethersworn Canonist - Against Storm, Elves
2x Surgical Extraction - Mainly against Dredge and Reanimator, but also nice to remove counterspells, submerge etc.
2x Ratchet Bomb - Against Tokens, Dredge, Miracle

I don't know the Metagame in this tournament. I try to make a SB, wich is very flexible. Would you change something, or forget i someting?

Can you read my list and explanation, please. I hope, that you give me some tips and tricks and tell me, if i should change something. Maybe you can give me tournament tips.

I hope it's allright. Thank you very much.

Greetings

door
08-19-2012, 05:22 AM
Hey Guys,

I hope it's allright. Thank you very much.

Greetings

Though other cards are variable, I would strongly recommend you this:

change pithing needles into phyrexian revokers. The needles don't affect tes and ant, when revokers do. Otherwise they do the same but also attack.

I do not recommend playing Thrun. It's just an expensive vanilla which doesn't stop flyers in RUG. Also there are much better cards for mirror and control matchups.

do not play Ratchet Bomb. It's just crap in this deck. You can play engineered explosives but it's only relevant if you're gonna play against elves. Goblins and Merfolks are already good matchups.

I'd recommend to stick only with 1 plainswalker and consider sylvan library in MD. Also consider adding choke and Linvala into sb. Linvala helps you so much in mirror match.

IL_casual
08-19-2012, 08:56 AM
Though other cards are variable, I would strongly recommend you this:

change pithing needles into phyrexian revokers. The needles don't affect tes and ant, when revokers do. Otherwise they do the same but also attack.

I do not recommend playing Thrun. It's just an expensive vanilla which doesn't stop flyers in RUG. Also there are much better cards for mirror and control matchups.

do not play Ratchet Bomb. It's just crap in this deck. You can play engineered explosives but it's only relevant if you're gonna play against elves. Goblins and Merfolks are already good matchups.

I'd recommend to stick only with 1 plainswalker and consider sylvan library in MD. Also consider adding choke and Linvala into sb. Linvala helps you so much in mirror match.

I would suggest staying with the Pithing needles since creatures are more prone to removal. The canonist could serve as your board for the ANT/TES matchup.

I would agree that thrun is just a vanilla creature and is too slow for the delver matchup. I would suggest adding another scryb ranger or upping the qasali pridemage.

feline
08-19-2012, 01:35 PM
I have now realized that Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, & Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, are all humans, I looked at the advanced search for other human creatures but there's like 100's of humans, at 20 per page with over 50 pages, I think that's over 1000 humans to go through, so I have to ask here, does anyone know of any other "good" human's to toy around with, I can think of Grim Lavamancer & Dark Confidant but they are off color.

Ayiluss
08-19-2012, 03:34 PM
So this means MoM counts as a human in both cases despite on Commander reads "Human Cleric" while on Urza's Legacy one reads only "Summon Cleric" not "Human"? I hope this isn't too stupid question.

Thanks for the answer!

feline
08-19-2012, 03:38 PM
The answer to your question, is yes, Mom is a Human cleric.

Koby
08-19-2012, 03:43 PM
So this means MoM counts as a human in both cases despite on Commander reads "Human Cleric" while on Urza's Legacy one reads only "Summon Cleric" not "Human"? I hope this isn't too stupid question.

Thanks for the answer!

Many cards are printed with out of date text. Always check the Oracle text for a card to be certain.
http://gatherer.wizards.com

feline
08-19-2012, 04:12 PM
Another thing I have to ask is howcome the deck isn't running stoneforge mystic's anymore? Is it just too slow or not needed or some combination of the two?

Guy I Don't Know
08-19-2012, 04:18 PM
Another thing I have to ask is howcome the deck isn't running stoneforge mystic's anymore? Is it just too slow or not needed or some combination of the two?

IMO most do not run it because it is not tempo oriented as well as it being harder to protect in maverick then some other decks.

beebles
08-19-2012, 07:46 PM
IMO most do not run it because it is not tempo oriented as well as it being harder to protect in maverick then some other decks.

Eh I believe it was because Thalia got printed and took the SFM slot it is because of a fear of "unfair" decks like storm and show and tell, if you play a 2 drop that doesn't dissrupt your opponent at all then you die.

Personally I think maybe it is time to shift more towards SFM again--all those unfair decks like storm, and show and tell inevitably get hated on. Against "fair" decks SFM is probably better.

tonedown
08-20-2012, 06:26 AM
I mostly cut SFM when i realised I was pretty much always tutoring for Jitte, and started running a second Jitte instead. Jitte is a great answer to Jitte, so the seond Jitte (when drawn) isn't always dead. Same line of thought as running two Karakas (Now I only need to get my hands on a second Karakas).

The only advantage i see with runing 1 Jitte 1 SFM is you get an extra, though rather unimpressive, body.

kai_nsane
08-20-2012, 07:08 AM
Thank you very much for the help. :)

Can i cut Thrun for a Linvala in MD? I read when i play Linvala its recommended to play Fauna Shaman? Whould you confirm that?

Can i cast Engineered Explosives for 0 Mana? So i can destroy tokens?

Would you recommend for me to cut 2 of my SFM and the Batterskull to add a sylvan lybrarie, a 2nd scry Ranger and a Qasali? Or some other Cards?

Thank you very much for the help. I am looking forward to the tournament and hope do well.

tonedown
08-20-2012, 08:12 AM
Dont know about the other ones, but: Yes, you can play EE for 0 to destroy tokens with it.
NB: To play EE with 0 counters when you have Thalia in play, you have to have access to a land that can tap for colourless, e.g. Wasteland/Caverns.

Asthereal
08-20-2012, 09:50 AM
Can i cut Thrun for a Linvala in MD? I read when i play Linvala its recommended to play Fauna Shaman? Whould you confirm that?
Yes. Thrun is pretty terrible against many matchups. I personally never play him anymore. Linvala is great in the mirror, and has its uses in other matchups as well. Still, Linvala is equally slow, so if your meta consists of RUG Tempo and Storm and such, just play that slow stuff sideboard. Fauna Shaman is useful but also slow. So same argument as for the 4CC creatures.


Would you recommend for me to cut 2 of my SFM and the Batterskull to add a sylvan lybrarie, a 2nd scry Ranger and a Qasali? Or some other Cards?
Yes, very much so. Batterskull is terrible unless the SFM sticks. Against Storm and SneakShow, you are dead before Bqatterskull veer does anything, and other decks will just destroy/counter SFM. Batterskull really has very limited use in the current environment. Sylvan Library is always good to play. If you have space, don't hesitate to play two copies. I personally also like to add Path to Exiles to the main deck when I have space for them. They help a lot in many matchups.

My current list:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary /25

4 Green Suns' Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte /13

4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith /22

Side:
2 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spike Feeder
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip /15
(but the sideboard is constantly changing - right now I sort of ignore the mirror :tongue: )

kai_nsane
08-20-2012, 01:20 PM
Thank you very much for the Help and your Decklists. Through you I feel better prepared for the tournament :)

Is the Sylvan Librarie really so good? I don't understand, why you recommend to play it.

I have change my Decklist a little bit. It's without Batterskull and SFM, now.

List:
23 Creatures:
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Scryb Ranger

15 Spells:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2x Sylvan Library

22 Lands:
4x Wastelands
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Gaeas Cradle

I play with just 22 Lands, I hope thats enough. I added 2 Sylvan Librarys, 1 Scryb Ranger, 1 Qasali Pridemage and a Path to Exile (Cuts 2x SFM 1x Batterskull 1x Thrun, 1 Horizon Canopy)

1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Gaddock teeg - Against Combo and Miracle
1x Bojuka Bog - Against Dredge and Reanimator
2x Krosan Grip - Against Cursed Totem and CB-SDT Combo. Against Stoneblade equip.
3x Pithing Needle - Against Planeswalkers, Artifact mana in Storm Decks, Sneak Atack
3x Ethersworn Canonist - Against Storm, Elves
2x Surgical Extraction - Mainly against Dredge and Reanimator, but also nice to remove counterspells, submerge etc.
2x Engineered Explosives - Against Tokens, Dredge, Miracle

Have you other suggestions that I can include in the deck with?

mishima_kazuya
08-20-2012, 02:17 PM
Thank you very much for the Help and your Decklists. Through you I feel better prepared for the tournament :)

Is the Sylvan Librarie really so good? I don't understand, why you recommend to play it.

I have change my Decklist a little bit. It's without Batterskull and SFM, now.

List:
23 Creatures:
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Scryb Ranger

15 Spells:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2x Sylvan Library

22 Lands:
4x Wastelands
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Gaeas Cradle

I play with just 22 Lands, I hope thats enough. I added 2 Sylvan Librarys, 1 Scryb Ranger, 1 Qasali Pridemage and a Path to Exile (Cuts 2x SFM 1x Batterskull 1x Thrun, 1 Horizon Canopy)

1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Gaddock teeg - Against Combo and Miracle
1x Bojuka Bog - Against Dredge and Reanimator
2x Krosan Grip - Against Cursed Totem and CB-SDT Combo. Against Stoneblade equip.
3x Pithing Needle - Against Planeswalkers, Artifact mana in Storm Decks, Sneak Atack
3x Ethersworn Canonist - Against Storm, Elves
2x Surgical Extraction - Mainly against Dredge and Reanimator, but also nice to remove counterspells, submerge etc.
2x Engineered Explosives - Against Tokens, Dredge, Miracle

Have you other suggestions that I can include in the deck with?

You have 2 planeswalkers, mana heavy cards like Sword of Light and Shadow and Green Sun's Zenith.

20.5 actual lands is not enough; Cradle might hurt sometimes and Maze of Ith doesn't count as a land.

-1 a Planeswalker (depends on metagame which one to cut)
+1 Forest

kai_nsane
08-20-2012, 02:25 PM
Okay, i think then i cut the Garruk, because in my tests Elspeth makes a very good job.
Should i also cut Gaeas Cradle for a thrid Forest?

Are Eternal Witness, Aven Mindcensor or Terravor debatable choices?

mishima_kazuya
08-20-2012, 03:43 PM
Okay, i think then i cut the Garruk, because in my tests Elspeth makes a very good job.
Should i also cut Gaeas Cradle for a thrid Forest?

Are Eternal Witness, Aven Mindcensor or Terravor debatable choices?

I think Cradle should be a Horizon Canopy.

Koby
08-20-2012, 04:40 PM
Are Eternal Witness, Aven Mindcensor or Terravor debatable choices?

They can play a role, but have very limited applications. Aven Mindcensor is the most "playable" due to having flying, but the 3 mana spot is already at a premium. Terravore + Sylvan Safekeeper is quite fun, and works well with GSZ.

Julian23
08-20-2012, 04:47 PM
Sylvan Safekeeper + Gaddock Teeg is pretty rough to deal with for UW Miracles, let me tell you.

door
08-20-2012, 06:00 PM
Okay, i think then i cut the Garruk, because in my tests Elspeth makes a very good job.
Should i also cut Gaeas Cradle for a thrid Forest?

Are Eternal Witness, Aven Mindcensor or Terravor debatable choices?
Terravore is not bad in mirror match, witness is good against decks with discard and heavy control, mindcensor against combo. I'd play some of these in case I'm sure I will have a good use of them.
also if you decided to play without mystics, I'd recommend to change the equipment package to 2 umezawa's jitte for more consistency. Though mystic+batterskull is good when you have decks like goblins, burn, affinity in your meta and not too much of combo decks.
And again pithing needle does not affect mana abilities and is useless against storm combo decks. Use phyrexian revokers instead.

kai_nsane
08-20-2012, 06:21 PM
Okay, then i cut the SoLaS for the 2nd Jitte.

I know the metagame not unfortunately. Would you recommend to cut a Qasali or a Scryb Ranger for an Witness or Mindcensor? Or there is the personal fondness crucial?

I think that i board Ethersworn Canonist against Storm Combo Decks. I think, that the Pithing Needle isn't so removal susceptible. But when you say, that the Revoker is so much better, i swap them.

Why is the Sylvan Savekeeper better than a Mother of Runes against UWMiracle ? Because the Summonig Sickness?

Thank you very much :) After the Tournament i can make a report of my results, if youre interested in. It is on 15 September.

Koby
08-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Why is the Sylvan Savekeeper better than a Mother of Runes against UWMiracle ? Because the Summonig Sickness?


Bingo! It also protects from multiple removal being fired off all at once. Example: StP end of turn, untap StP.

Deckerator
08-21-2012, 03:37 AM
I thought about playing Punishing maverick in a tournent because there are so many g/w decks? Can someone post a good list of Punishing Maverick?
*******

*

feline
08-21-2012, 10:28 PM
It was back at the end of march, but maybe this helps with the punishing maverick list.

Punishing Maverick ~1st place, Max Tietze StarCityGames Invitational, Baltimore Maryland USA (143 players) March-25th-2012

1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
~SB
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Choke
1 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Deckerator
08-22-2012, 02:52 AM
Deck Name: GWr Maverick Position: 2

Creatures [21]
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instants [7]
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [5]
1 Life from the Loam
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [2]
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Garruk Relentless

Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [22]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog*
3 Ethersworn Canonist*
3 Pithing Needle*
2 Krosan Grip*
2 Surgical Extraction*
3 Red Elemental Blast*
1 Crop Rotation*

This is the list i've found.
I would make the following changes:
-1x Ajani
-1-2x Aven Mindscensor

Add:
+1x Sylvan library
+1x Mother of Runes

Maybe there can be other changes done.

Koby
08-22-2012, 11:37 AM
@Deckerator
You mentioned that you have a lot of mirror matches. Maybe instead of trying to beat the mirror you can play a deck that just beats Maverick altogether? My testing months ago with regards to the mirror and especially with Punishing Fires was this:

1) Mother of Runes is the most important card (and by extension, Sylvan Safekeeper)
2) Stable mana-base is one of the keys (multiple basics)
3) Active Jitte (more flyers, the better)
4) Active Scavenging Ooze

They are ranked in order of importance. I never found that the PFires builds were necessary to win the mirror, in part because they are so mana intensive and the manabase is so finicky. I would suggest to grab a friend and playtest the match out to practice. You're not going to win every game in the mirror (tends to 50% regardless), but it will give you a good idea of what to expect and how to decide on mulligans.

One advantage you might gain is to eliminate Thalia and Gaddock Teeg completely. They are useless in the mirror. This might hurt your non-Maverick matchups however, so be prepared for that.

Pasch
08-22-2012, 03:39 PM
What decks would you say just beat Maverick?

I've just recently gotten back into Magic and started with a Maverick deck. Been trying to get an idea of what the matchups are like.

HoneyT
08-22-2012, 04:42 PM
What decks would you say just beat Maverick?

Belcher.

JohnDevus
08-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Hey door.
Could you post the maverick's list of your teammate that was playing a slightly diferent version with 2 crop rotation on SB?

Regards.

Wasteland
08-23-2012, 05:01 AM
The punishing list above is mine^^ - and i would not make any changes to it, since Ajani and mindcensores are too good (mindcensores ecspecially since you dont have thalias in GWr builds)
I agree with Koby that it's not necessary to splash red for fires to win the mirror - just take 1 Jitte more in your maindeck and some mindcensors to beat enemy knights / zeniths...
The redsplash depends on how your meta looks like. With no combo and tons of elves, goblins, merfolk etc. around (as it is in Nuremberg) the redsplash is just great, andred blasts can beat the only combodeck around (show and tell)...
If you have to fight multiple times against TES, ANT... then stay with straight GW

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

Julian23
08-23-2012, 08:52 PM
If you have to fight multiple times against TES, ANT... then stay with straight GW

Yeah! If you want to beat gay decks, stay straight! :wink:

Regarding the Sylvan Safekeeper vs. Mother of Runes thing in the UW Miracles matchup: I'd go as far as to say that Gaddock Teeg+Sylvan Safekeeper is pretty close to a hard lock in that matchup; whereas Mother of Runes will usually just trade with 2 removal spells. Mother is still the overall way better card, but as a UW Miracles player nothing scares me more than seeing Olle + Teeg on the other side of the board.

kingsey
08-23-2012, 11:50 PM
Well I've finally cut blue from " Bant " and switch to G/W.

Played a few games tonight and mother of runes is great. I've seen a few lists running SIGARDA, HOST OF HERONS as a 1 of. Thoughts?

Also how important are the Cavern of Souls?

Thanks. It wasnt easy for me to let go of blue, but i'm going to try to play a non blue deck for the first time ...since urza's block suicide black :tongue:

Wasteland
08-24-2012, 05:12 AM
Sigarda as 1of is ok if you run no fauna shaman (with shaman i think 1of Linvala is the better choice) - but IF you play Sigarda, i think you want 1 Gaeas cradle too to be able to zenith for her...

For the caverns, i would play 2 in the GW list - its a great card against canadian / UW miracle - but more then 2 are problematic, since you are not able to cast zenith T1 with them and often you want the green mana for ooze-activation. 2 just seams to be the right amount of them.
Here the manabase i would use in a straight GW:

2x forest
1x plains
4x windswept heath
2x verdant catacombs (or any other green fetchland)
4x savannah
4x wasteland
2x cavern of souls
2x horizon canopy
1x karakas
1x dryad arbor

Greetz,
Marius

MaximumC
08-24-2012, 11:04 AM
Apologies if these topics have been covered; this thread is now 150+ pages long, and I think it's past anyone being able to read!

I wanted to know if people have tried the following sideboard cards, and what thoughts they have on them:

1. Energy Storm.
On paper, this seems like an awesome 4-of in the board. It trumps Punishing Fire in the mirror, stops everything RUG Delver wants to do, and randomly beats burn decks if you run into them. I know some people are looking to Absolute Law, but I think for 1W this card does so much more.

2. Thornscape Apprentice
When facing down Show and Tell decks, you want your Maze of Ith effects online immediately. Thornscape gives you a GSZ target that comes out early and stops Emrakul cold. Also randomly helps against other aggro decks, particularly midrange like Nic Fit, by holding back their fattie until your Knights are bigger.

3. Runed Halo
Again, this seems like a great toolbox card to shore up the matches you're weak against. It costs WW, which is a negative. Still, it protects you from Show and Tell / Natural Order baddies, particularly Progenitus, to which you otherwise fold. It stops Storm cold and is simply another Maze of Ith in the aggro match.

Anyone tried these guys out?

Esper3k
08-24-2012, 11:16 AM
Apologies if these topics have been covered; this thread is now 150+ pages long, and I think it's past anyone being able to read!

I wanted to know if people have tried the following sideboard cards, and what thoughts they have on them:

1. Energy Storm.
On paper, this seems like an awesome 4-of in the board. It trumps Punishing Fire in the mirror, stops everything RUG Delver wants to do, and randomly beats burn decks if you run into them. I know some people are looking to Absolute Law, but I think for 1W this card does so much more.

The cumulative upkeep makes this one not really worth it, imo. While you're paying cumulative upkeep, RUG still gets to beat your face with Tarmogoyfs and Mongooses. Once the Energy Storm drops, they continue with their plan, but now Goyf is +1 larger from having an enchantment in the yard. Plus, tying up your mana in cumulative upkeep against deck that runs heavy taxing countermagic seems rough.



2. Thornscape Apprentice
When facing down Show and Tell decks, you want your Maze of Ith effects online immediately. Thornscape gives you a GSZ target that comes out early and stops Emrakul cold. Also randomly helps against other aggro decks, particularly midrange like Nic Fit, by holding back their fattie until your Knights are bigger.

I think this is fine if you really want a GSZ answer against Show & Tell decks. Against aggro, I don't think it's that great since you're not really removing attackers, just stalling.



3. Runed Halo
Again, this seems like a great toolbox card to shore up the matches you're weak against. It costs WW, which is a negative. Still, it protects you from Show and Tell / Natural Order baddies, particularly Progenitus, to which you otherwise fold. It stops Storm cold and is simply another Maze of Ith in the aggro match.

Anyone tried these guys out?

I've seen it in some eTutor boards. Seems alright.

conley1000000
08-24-2012, 11:23 AM
The problem with Emrakul even if you have protection from him(regaurding the Runed Halo) the Annihilator trigger is still going off correct?

Esper3k
08-24-2012, 11:24 AM
The problem with Emrakul even if you have protection from him(regaurding the Runed Halo) the Annihilator trigger is still going off correct?

Correct. Even if you have the Halo after the Annihilator trigger resolves, it's still a losing battle since you're going to be sacrificing 6 permanents a turn until you have to sac the Halo and die.

MaximumC
08-24-2012, 11:54 AM
Good points. I'm wondering if anyone has actual experience testing these cards, though, so we're not just theorycrafting.


The cumulative upkeep makes this one not really worth it, imo. While you're paying cumulative upkeep, RUG still gets to beat your face with Tarmogoyfs and Mongooses. Once the Energy Storm drops, they continue with their plan, but now Goyf is +1 larger from having an enchantment in the yard. Plus, tying up your mana in cumulative upkeep against deck that runs heavy taxing countermagic seems rough.


Has anyone tested it, though? It's true that you can't keep Energy Storm around for more than, say, two or three turns. But during those turns your creatures are immune to red removal, Delver can't attack, and you might well draw another copy. Seems like it gives you a huge edge if you get into a race with Delver. I've actually played this card over Absolute Law in Elves, and I have been very impressed by how awesome it is to have an essentially unanswerable protection for all of my creatures against certain decks.

I guess what tips this in my favor is I think it's important to have an answer for the Punishing Fire mirror, but Absolute Law is too limited and does no good in other matchups. This does. But, as you say, maybe this deck is simply too slow to make it worthwhile.



I think this is fine if you really want a GSZ answer against Show & Tell decks. Against aggro, I don't think it's that great since you're not really removing attackers, just stalling.


I dunno about that. He basically is removal; might as well be Oblivion Ring in the aggro match. You can tap down the offending creature turn after turn, removing it from contention. It also interferes with opposing moms. Now, this particular Oblivion Ring is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, yeah, but again, it seems really versatile.

CorpT
08-24-2012, 12:24 PM
People are still playing Punishing Fire? I haven't seen a PF Maverick in several months at least. Beat them with a more consistent mana base and side Surgicals if you have to. No reason to play bad cards that last 2-3 turns.

H
08-25-2012, 01:34 PM
Last night was my first real Legacy tournament, I went with the following list by Wayne Tam from Legacy Champs:


Main Deck
60 cards

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

1 Eternal Witness
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gilded Drake
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Trygon Predator


It was a 16 person turnout for a FNM Legacy tournament, which I was told is a good amount for there on a Friday. I went 3-0-1 but lost in Top 8 to RUG.

Round 1, 2-0 vs Sneak and Show.
Game 1, he Brainstorms twice, through my Thalia, but when he Snow and Tell's in Griselbrand, he is at 5 so my EOT StP resolves and he scoops.

Game 2 he Brainstorms a few times this game, but it seems he didn't draw too much apparently. He does finally land a Sneak Attack through a Thalia, but he doesn't have the mana to activate. I GSZ for Pridemage and he scoops.

Round 2, 1-1 vs Lands
Game 1 is like pulling teeth, I misplay and attack my Thalia into a manland, and eventually I get Wastelanded/Ghost Quartered and locked out via Maze of Ith (that he is recurring via 2 or 3 Loams). I scoop, rather than grind, as I want time to try to actually win the match.

Game 2, I board in Bojuka Bog, Crop Rot and Crucible. I manage to keep him off of really getting a the Loam engine going, via Scavenging Ooze and eventually a get an active Knight, so I am able to keep him off Maze (which I eat with Ooze) and Chasm (via Bog). When I get a second Knight that both are 9/9's, he can't gain enough life from Orb to live. And we finish right as time ends.

Round 3, 2-1 vs Sea Stompy
Game 1, he has a turn 1 Chalice of the Void, Turn 2 Pestermite, turn 3 Jitte. Luckily, I am holding a Jitte, and his second one he plays the next turn I have an active Knight, which gets me a Maze. When I draw GSZ and get a Pridemage, I leave the Jitte there, and hit the Chalice on 1, which unlocks my two Swords and lets my team swing through for the win.

Game 2, he gets a Turn 1 Pestermite, Turn 2 Jitte, and my two Noble Hierarchs get smoked. I don't draw a land and I don't draw removal, and scoop.

Game 3, this is my chance to go turn 1 GSZ for Arbor, turn 2 Jitte, which takes over the game. A few -1/-1's later, it is over.

Round 4, 2-1 vs R/U Aggro/Burn?
Game 1, he burns me out, I can't get enough bodies to stick.

Game 2, I don't really remember all that well, I think I got a Geist that was carrying a Jitte and ride it to victory.

Game 3, he tries to burn me right down, but I am saved by my Ooze that gains me just enough life to not die to an 8 damage Price of Progress.

Top 8, 0-2 vs RUG

Game 1, he gets multiple Geese that I can't touch, I don't have anything that can trade with them and he keeps me off GSZ with Force and Spell Pierce.

Game 2, pretty much the same, except he Pierces my Swords on his Goyf, keeps me off GSZ again, and when he has double Submerge for my Ooze, the game is over.

It was a good time, I don't know exactly how this deck reliably beat RUG as constructed above, but I was not expecting Spell Pierce, that's for sure. Also, running Submerges is pretty good too.

I like the deck, Giest is pretty boss, but it might not be worth the blue splash. I will probably play another deck next week anyway, but I will probably keep this constructed for a loaner deck. I think the Sideboard needs work though, for the meta I realistically will see.

mishima_kazuya
08-26-2012, 01:05 AM
Made top 16 of the Season 1 Philadelphia Championship Series. Tournament was 7 rounds since 79 players showed up. :smile:

I splashed blue for sideboard Spell Pierces at the last minute due to a large presence of Show and Tell decks.

I played bad and got punished accordingly :frown:

If you want a tournament report reply, since I'm too lazy atm to type one up.

matunos
08-26-2012, 01:46 AM
Made top 16 of the Season 1 Philadelphia Championship Series. Tournament was 7 rounds since 79 players showed up. :smile:

I splashed blue for sideboard Spell Pierces at the last minute due to a large presence of Show and Tell decks.

I played bad and got punished accordingly :frown:

If you want a tournament report reply, since I'm too lazy atm to type one up.

In my albeit short experience with Maverick vs Show and Tell (specifically, Sneak Show), you don't need Spell Peirce, Thalia is the tits (no pun intended). Knight and/or Crop Rotation will bring it home.

If you can get these in hand, your biggest fear is Sneak Attack (because they can sneak an Emmy back out after you bounce it with Karakas and before the declare attackers step). But if you can survive a sneaked Emrakul swing and leave a KotR on the field, I think you have the advantage.

Basically, slow them down as much as possible and get your heavy hitters going.

Philipp2293
08-26-2012, 03:59 AM
Since for some reason quoting him doesn't work, exactly what the above user said is true. Thalia is often good enough to build up a critical board presence, where even swinging with Emrakul is not enough.

For example last tournament he Showed Emrakul into play, I didn't have Knight, but GSZed for one next turn. He swung in with Emrakul and made a disgusted face as the Knight, grown through the annihilated lands, killed him on the backswing.

On a sidenote: For locals today, next to combo decks of all flavours (played 5 combo decks in 5 rounds last time) I except quite a number of tribal and canadian decks. For this reason I'm gonna run Goyf instead of the last Library. I've been bashing Goyf in the past, but I'm gonna give him another chance.

mishima_kazuya
08-26-2012, 11:41 AM
You guys are probably right.

Take this with a grain of salt as I was in the x-2 bracket...

In the last round of the swiss I mulled to 4 against SnT omniscience. I made a misplay when I didn't try to leave up mana for a Qasali Pridemage activation but he ended up having 2 Omnisciences anyways. They are both small percentages: an attack by a Dryad Arbor for 2 damage versus the possibility of him having 2 Omnisciences.

I mulled to 5 game and I had a Thalia when he didn't have a Force of Will for it and a drew a Knight of the Reliquary to seal the game.

I kept an shaky hand game 3: three lands for all three of my colors, wasteland, mother of runes, knight, and a Qasali Pridemage. I never drew spell Pierce but his deck gave him a Show and Tell too late as I had an active Knight with Mother of Runes in play.

kai_nsane
08-26-2012, 05:47 PM
Hey Guys,

the blue splash seems to be very interesting.
The Creature Geist of Saint Traft is imo very good. If i wanna play with a blue splash, would you recommend to play the Fauna Shaman? I think the Shaman is very slow.

Are Rhox War Monk and Rafiq of the Many also playable?
In the Sideboard is Echoing Truth maybe playable against Tokens (Miracle, Dredge) and Flusterstorm against Strom.

Against witch Matchup is the GWu List better than the GW Lists?

I think that i play the straight GW List at my next Legacy tournaments, but I'm unsettled, now.

Thank you for your help :)

Greetings

xiaocho
08-28-2012, 03:50 AM
there are several cards that u can use when spashing blue:

geist (he's at his best in a vacuum and pretty weak when the board is stalled since he has a weak body)

spell pierce/flusterstorm to fight combo decks

meddling mage as additional hate bear

rhox war monk to fight zoo and burn


what's the connection between splashing blue and playability of fauna shaman? I guess u just dont like the shaman in general since she's kinda clunky.

To answer ur 2nd and 3rd question:

RWM is playable. see above

RotM isnt. Too expensive. Too little gain. U often want to attack with more than one creature.

GW Maverick has a solid mana base - one of Maverick's strengths. GWU's benefits are listed above.

Krondo9
08-28-2012, 10:39 AM
played in the Legacy plat 1k at GP Boston this past weekend. Made top 4 and we decided to split. I'll go over my matches and how they went, as well as my analysis of the deck and card choices.

Rd 1 - Goblins
My opponent was very nice, but seemed more of a casual player, as he was playing some subpar goblin cards like warren instigator, as well as lightning bolt. Crushed him pretty quickly with mom, jitte, knight in both games, while swordsing and pathing his creatures.

1-0, 2-0 in games

Rd 2 - BUG control/Team America
The deck I faced this time seemed like an old school BUG deck with some new cards in it such as Liliana of the veil. Game 1 I just go to town with a sylvan library, while pridemaging his library. The deck runs tarmogoyf, which is fairly weak when I have ooze and knights that easily outclass it. He talks a lot of trash between games, saying how this is an easy matchup for him and he should definitely be winning. I take that as a challenge, and game 2 I get hymn to tourached twice, on t2 and t3, but still win the game, due to him making very poor plays. The only card I really feared was Deed, but its very easy to wasteland decks like these out of the game.

2-0, 4-0 in games

Rd 3 - RUG Delver
My opponent, Alex Morrill, I often see at magic events in the northeast area, so I figured he must be a pretty respectable player. Game 1 I lose to MD grim lavamancer, which seems like the new tech, while only having 2 green sources and thalias, knights, swords in hand while getting beat down by delvers and geese. HG2 he doesnt have many threats, just answers, so I'm able to win off dropping my own. G3 I have sylvan library out and am able to dredge loam and feed my knight, while denying him lands with wasteland. Getting an active mother out is huge, and he complimented me for being a competent mother of runes player, not tapping out when I didnt need to. I definitely think having 2 libraries is correct, as the nickname "Green Jace the Mind Sculptor" is very accurate IMO.

3-0, 6-1 in games

Rd 4 - Cephalid Breakfast
I can safely say that I had never played against this deck in my life and went on to lose fairly quickly 2-0 having no idea what to play around and attack. I was fooled game1 by thinking he was on stoneblade after seeing stoneforge mystic, then T3 he went cephalid and the 1/1 that targets it. G2 I wasnt sure what he would be siding, so I didnt bring as much grave hate as I shouldve.

3-1, 6-3 in games

Rd 5 - Lands
I've seen Josh Cicio at almost every legacy event I've been to, so I knew what to expect. Luckily for me, he wasnt play blue, which he said is what he usually plays. Game 1 I wasted his maze of iths and removed those and loams with ooze, which is pretty big in the matchup. Game 2 He mulled to 5 on the play, so I was already pretty far ahead. He had a t2 Cursed totem, but luckily for me I boarded in the one card that beats that, Krosan grip, which I had in my opener. I also swords a bob, which I figured he was bringing in since most loam decks have those somewhere in their 75. Tabernacle was a problem but I was able to activate a knight to take it out. Tormod's crypt helped clear his yard and I had a faerie macabre left in hand when he conceded. He told me he usually plays UW miracles though, which obviously wouldve crushed me had he been on that instead.

4-1, 8-3 in games

Rd 6 - RUG Delver
Similar to last time, this is a pretty good matchup if you know what youre doing. We both mulled to 5 in game 1, and he had to lead with ponder rather than a guy. Thats always good, as T1 Delver is pretty scary. He had to cantrip a lot, but couldnt find enough answers to deal with my guys. G2 I bait a counterspell (spell snare) with my GSZ for 1, and then land sylvan library the following turn. From there my hand was just all gas, double KOTR, double Ooze, thalia, so I knew I couldnt lose from there. Cavern was pretty big for me too, as being able to fight through daze, FoW is nice.

5-1, 10-3 in games

Rd 7 - Storm (TES)
I saw what he was playing earlier, as we were sitting next to each other the round previous, so I knew what to expect. G1 I had a hand with Thalia, so I instantly kept. He had to mull to 5, and had to chance after getting beaten down with thalia. G2, I mulled 2 relatively good maverick hands, (knights, pridemages) in order to find a good hand with Thalia. I kept a 5 that was Thalia, Wasteland, Wasteland, Savannah, Green Sun. T1 I went GSZ for arbor while he cantriped first 2 turns. T2 I drop thalia and wasteland his land, as I know TES decks only run about 18 lands usually. I also drew an ethersworn canonist, and theres no way for TES to fight through canonist and thalia, so he quickly conceded hereon after.

6-1, 12-3 in games

Top 8 - Cephalid Breakfast
Having now known what the deck does, It was pretty easy to disrupt the combo. G1 I kept a pretty creature heavy hand, hoping to bring the beats. He forced my ooze, but I had a mother of runes and Jitte, so I was able to stack up a lot of jitte counters, which is hard to fight through when your win con is a 1/1.
Game 2, I had ooze and pridemage, which he couldnt fight through while he had his combo pieces in hand. My friend had told me before the round that cephalid was pretty easy to disrupt, so after sideboarding correctly this time, I was able to take it down.

7-1, 14-3 in games

Top 4 - We each agreed that $200 and 40 tcgpts each would be better than playing for 1st, so we all split. I wouldve been paired against Jarvis Yu, who was on RUG delver, a favorable matchup, albeit from a very good player. All in all, a very successful day.

My list:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg

2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
2 Cavern of Souls

SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 1 Crop Rotation

Notes:
1. Krosan Grip serves many purposes, and I actually like the card a lot. Its good against the UW miracles, since you can take out sensei's top, which is the engine for their deck. It also destroys batterskulls, cursed totems, libraries, etc. etc.

2. I was initially running a Revoker in the board, but switched that to a 2nd Teeg last minute. I never really used Teeg, although it was nice to have against storm if I drew it. It is mainly for the miracles deck, as it shuts off all their miracles. with a Karakas or mother of runes in play, you can protect it too, so I think this might be correct.

3. Loam is huge, and works really well with library as well. Both cards have big impacts in the deck, and Loam locking RUG delver is a real thing. I definitely recommend this card, as its impact can be huge.

4. I have been playing 3 scavenging ooze for a while now, and I highly recommend it. It's the best creature to have against the best deck right now (RUG delver), and it has impacts against every other deck too. against stoneblade it shuts down snap/academy ruins, reanimator, dredge, mirror. Very good against aggro as it can grow and gain life. My opponents were always very surprised and not happy to see the 3rd, as it is just so good right now.

5. EDIT - I also wanted to add my take on the splash of blue. I played blue for spell pierce and flusterstorm in my board at SCG providence where I top16ed. Spell pierce was relevant a few times, but overall I do not think the splash for blue is necessary. There have been times where I wished my Tropical island was a savannah, and spell pierce is too reactive for a deck that just wants to win right away. It doesnt let you be aggressive enough against the slower decks, so you cant properly take the role of the aggro. Also, a good player can play around it if they see it, and then your left with a card that doesnt do much in the late game. Geist is ok but not amazing, and Nick Spagnolo brought up the pt to me that you pretty much would rather have a knight of the reliquary anyways. So, definitely try it out if you want, but I would say just stick with G/W.

I highly suggest playing maverick, as it has game against every deck in the format. If any questions or comments, please feel free to ask. Thanks to all who read this report.

CorpT
08-28-2012, 11:50 AM
there are several cards that u can use when spashing blue:

geist (he's at his best in a vacuum and pretty weak when the board is stalled since he has a weak body)


The thing about Geist is that he's pretty good with Swords for Protections to get through. You never have to worry about losing the mana when equiping and getting to hit hard with him is very nice.

However, most people are not playing Swords any more, so his usefulness has decreased. With Swords/SFM, he's pretty decent. But that may be for a different deck than this.

I played Geist in my deck at GP Indy and did fairly well, so it's possible to use him, but most people don't any more.

xiaocho
08-28-2012, 12:57 PM
thats why geist is usually played in stoneblade decks.

they can path his way with pointremoval backed up by snapcaster,

they got enough and mass removal to try to keep the board empty and

they got sfm with the eq's.

Esper3k
08-28-2012, 03:03 PM
@Krondo9: Nice finish! Do you find yourself missing the SFM at all?

Koopa
08-28-2012, 03:16 PM
So Choke has been cycled out? Anyone care to explain why?

Koby
08-28-2012, 03:28 PM
So Choke has been cycled out? Anyone care to explain why?

Short answer is Miracles.
Long answer is Miracles, which don't require :2::w::w: (Wrath) to destroy Maverick's threats. In decks that utilize Blue/X and X provides sweepers, the majority of mana sources are still Islands. Miracles radically change that requirement to simply Plains. Choke doesn't affect Plains. Turns out the deck is still highly mana hungry. Furthermore, they have anticipated Choke as the old plan and bring in Disenchant (or have in the past). Force of Will is typically weak against Maverick because you need/want more removal. Decks utilizing Cavern of Souls also invalidate counterspells.

Hence, playing Armageddon/Tsunami is more effective than Choke.

Koopa
08-28-2012, 03:35 PM
Tsunami seems just as bad as Choke though against Stoneblade if the card you are worried about is Terminus.

Also, Tsunami is so much worse than Choke against RUG I can't even imagine using it outside of the Stoneblade matchup.

As for Armageddon, the card seems fine, but requires a lot of set up. Set up that can be undone easy by a Wrath.

Koby
08-28-2012, 03:42 PM
Play what you want.

Koopa
08-28-2012, 03:45 PM
I am not trying to attack your argument, but rather expand and observe your logic. I agree that Choke can be poor when your opponent's Wraths cost 1 as opposed 4. Point noted and I agree there.

I guess the next level of thought is, do we even want a LD effect at all?

kai_nsane
08-29-2012, 06:17 AM
Congratulation Krondo9 to your Top4 :)

I really like your list. I'm going to play this on my next Tournament. Maybe i change in the Sideboard the 2 Tormods Crypt against Surgical Extraction (personal predilection), the Teeg against a Revoker (I think, the Needle-Effect is really helpful) and cut something for a 2nd Grip (I liked the Card a lot too).

What do you board against Goblins? 2 Path and the elspeth?

Have you some other tipps, how to play in a Tournament?

Thank you very much.

Asthereal
08-29-2012, 06:37 AM
A Belgian Maverick expert I know was really satisfied with Armageddon.
He played one in his sideboard of late and was always wanting for more.

Has anybody tested Tangle Wire yet? Costs a mana less (relevant with Thalia) and the effect hurts your opponent more than it hurts you. It wears out quickly, but it does work nicely with Thalia and Wastelands. I tried it in mono white and was pretty amazed how well it locked out my opponents from casting stuff.

Krondo9
08-29-2012, 07:34 AM
@Esper3k Thanks! Not at all. Todd Anderson made a good pt in one of his articles that stoneforge is pretty bad when the only equipment you're getting is 2x Jitte. You can draw it naturally and get it through sylvan library. If you naturally draw it after playing stoneforge its probably a dead card. SFM is better when you have swords/batterskull as well.

@kai_nsane Thanks :) I'd probably take out teeg, 2x thalia, for 2x path and linvala. Not sure if Elspeth does much in this matchup. I like her more in the grindy matchups against control or mirrors. Some decks are playing Krenko, Mob Boss, so Linvala is fine. If you're playing revoker, definitely bring that in to name aether vial, plus it trades with most goblins. Mother of Runes is huge in the matchup, so getting one active should be your priority. I wouldn't run a 2nd grip unless your meta requires it, since pridemage provides a good effect already.
In terms of tips for tournaments, I know its hard to say it, but confidence goes a long way. Getting a feel free for each matchup is huge, I would playtest all of them so you know how to beat each deck. The good thing about legacy is decks dont really change much over time, so if you learn how to beat dredge, you will always know how to beat dredge.

Also, just wanted to give my take on choke. I don't think its great right now, and good players will play around it anyways. I had an opponent play glacial fortress against me in stoneblade because he wanted to play around choke. Against RUG delver, I don't really like it either because if you're on the draw, you're probably behind when you play it. I haven't tested much with geddon, although I can see how it would be good. I try to stay away from too many non-creature spells when I run 4 thalia main.

AlmostGrown
08-29-2012, 03:50 PM
There is a lot more Maverick popping up in my area, and I want another slot either MD or SB to combat it. One suggestion I've had was to try Fight Bear (Ulvenwald Tracker). Any other suggestions?

HoneyT
08-29-2012, 04:14 PM
There is a lot more Maverick popping up in my area, and I want another slot either MD or SB to combat it. One suggestion I've had was to try Fight Bear (Ulvenwald Tracker). Any other suggestions?

There's lots of good cards in the mirror. Gut Shots, Linvala's, planeswalkers, etc. What does your list look like currently?

Reagens
08-30-2012, 11:39 AM
Ulvenwald tracker is probably the best and the easiest answer for the mirror. Having mother active to protect it is key though.
At GP Ghent it helped me win the mirror although he had a better board position (not counting tracker) and 2 active mothers. Don't forget it has great synergie with scryb ranger as well.

AlmostGrown
08-30-2012, 05:28 PM
I'm currently running Chas Hinkle's list from SCG DC and really liking it. I'm not sure what to cut for the Fight bear. Maybe a Fauna Shaman?


Maindeck:

Creatures
2 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Planeswalkers
1 Garruk Relentless

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
3 Forest
1 Plains

Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Crop Rotation
1 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gideon Jura
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

Esper3k
08-30-2012, 07:03 PM
I've never been a fan of the 1-of Garruk Relentless. You can't tutor for it or get it with any sort of consistency, so I'd cut it.

HoneyT
08-30-2012, 10:27 PM
The worst cards you have in the main for the mirror are Thalias. If you're looking for a mainboard slot to cut, that would be my choice.

xiaocho
08-31-2012, 07:48 AM
dunno whether its been mentioned yet or not, but

the flashy bird is boss in the mirror: Aven Mindcensor.

He's unable to fetch, use the knight, zenith or use fauna shaman in a proper way.

I feel the bird might have a come back since there are lots of decks running around using effects to tutor for certain cards.

Reagens
08-31-2012, 07:58 AM
@AlmostGrown

I would suggest cutting 1 Thalia and 1 Fauna Shaman for 1 Tracker and 1 Gaddock Teeg. The teeg does nothing in the mirror but I find it more useful instead of the 4th Thalia. I should probably mention that I am not sold on Fauna Shaman at all (I currently run 1 but it might get cut).
I would certainly not cut garruk (I recently went from no PW to 1 Elspeth to 1 Elspeth and a Garruk). Miracle control is attracting some well deserved attention in my metagame and both PW's are needed to neutralize jace. Infinite tokens are also useful in the mirror of course :)

Rekk
08-31-2012, 09:33 AM
@the12yearoldwithacomputer (almostgrown) Cut the thrun and the second crop rotation for 2 gut shots

emrakultenticles
08-31-2012, 11:20 PM
I have been having the worst luck with this deck, I attract nothing but Storm/combo decks in my meta and they keep me off thalia/teeg/canonist with a turn 2 silence or just go off way to fast such as spanish inquisition and belcher. im seriously thinking about putting in Leyline of sanctity in my SB or run elvish spirit guides so I can get a turn 1 thalia when needed.
im running sneak and show now with great results, but I would like to get Maverick playable again.

Lorenzo767
09-01-2012, 10:17 AM
I have been having the worst luck with this deck, I attract nothing but Storm/combo decks in my meta and they keep me off thalia/teeg/canonist with a turn 2 silence or just go off way to fast such as spanish inquisition and belcher. im seriously thinking about putting in Leyline of sanctity in my SB or run elvish spirit guides so I can get a turn 1 thalia when needed.
im running sneak and show now with great results, but I would like to get Maverick playable again.

I think you could try Mindbreak Trap in your SB or a blue Splash for Flusterstorm (that is also more versatile) and Ethersworm Canonist but i really don't like to waste 4 SB slots for Leyline!
How many copies of Thalia and Gaddock you have MD?

emrakultenticles
09-01-2012, 07:24 PM
I think you could try Mindbreak Trap in your SB or a blue Splash for Flusterstorm (that is also more versatile) and Ethersworm Canonist but i really don't like to waste 4 SB slots for Leyline!
How many copies of Thalia and Gaddock you have MD?
I run 4 thalias in the main, and a single teeg in SB but they can't do their job if they can never hit play in time due to disruption/ orims chant/ silence and against Belcher and inquisition they can go off on turn 1 with ease. mindbreak trap would be the best SB against storm not sure why I forgot about that card, much better than leylines.

IL_casual
09-02-2012, 12:29 AM
Judge's Familiar

Creature - Bird W/U
Flying
Sacrifice Judge's Familiar : Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays 1.

What do you think about this new RTR spoiled card? Will this see play in Maverick?

NathanS2k
09-02-2012, 01:24 AM
^ Doubt it.

iScare
09-02-2012, 02:33 AM
I have a question regarding this scenario. My opponent has terravore and declared attack. I declared blocker with dryad arbor and then bounce my dryad arbor with scryb ranger. Does the trample damage still come thru?


Thanks!!!

xiaocho
09-02-2012, 04:43 AM
yea of course. his damage has been dealt.

allek
09-02-2012, 05:36 AM
I think Judge's Familliar (the new flying Cursecatcher) will see play in Maverick.
All our anti-storm dorks cost two mana which means that ANT/TES can go off without us stopping them on turn1 or turn2 if they're on the play. Not any more.

Great synergy with Thalia too, making it even harder for slower combodecks like Sneak/Show to resolve SnT early.

Also, it carries Jitte like a BAWS!

Final Fortune
09-02-2012, 08:37 AM
Theory crafting for Judge's Familiar, but I think it'd be awesome against most of Maverick's weakest match ups, from Storm, Reanimator and Dredge as well as useful in the aggro-control and control match ups. Against Dredge, you could literally turn 1 Judge's Familiar, turn 2 Thalia and lock them into manual dredging.

Something like,

4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddok Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Exalted Hierarch

seems like a completely reasonable creature base to me

IL_casual
09-02-2012, 09:39 AM
Theory crafting for Judge's Familiar, but I think it'd be awesome against most of Maverick's weakest match ups, from Storm, Reanimator and Dredge as well as useful in the aggro-control and control match ups. Against Dredge, you could literally turn 1 Judge's Familiar, turn 2 Thalia and lock them into manual dredging.

Something like,

4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali
Pridemage

1 Gaddok Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Exalted Hierarch

seems like a completely reasonable creature base to me

What do u think should we take out?

mini1337s
09-02-2012, 11:05 AM
If you are going to put in Judge's Familiar, I would suggest maxing out on Exalted.
I think it becomes a lot more of an aggro deck, but would benefit from equipment to beef up the weenies. Also, unlike BoP, the Familiar can carry a Jitte and deal damage without an exalted effect. Cathedral of War might have a place in the deck as well.

xiaocho
09-02-2012, 12:06 PM
something like this?

4x noble
3-4x qasali
3-4x sublime archangel

+

a lot of small creatures that help u control the board:

4x thalia
4x familiar
4x knight
4x mother (I'd rather go with 3x mothers and 1x sylvan safekeeper as sylvan safekeeper protects ur creatures from maze aswell)
0-4 sfm depending on ur equipments
1x dryad arbor
1-2 scrybranger


0-2 ooze
0-2 teegs

probably no planeswalker?

if u play familiar u should consider splashing blue for more disruption like spell pierce, flusterstorm, meddling mage, etc.

1-2 sylvan libraries, 0-5 point removal, 4 zeniths

I guess its possible to try to play this kind of list with Aether Vial.

Just some random thoughts.

Every single card has to be evaluated in terms of use and strength.

Final Fortune
09-02-2012, 04:00 PM
I think you should take out the duplicates of Scavenging Ooze and Qasali Pridemage, all of the copies of Fauna Shaman, the Garruk the Relentless and the Path to Exile and just replace them with 4 Judge's Familiar, a Gaddok Teeg and an Umezawa's Jitte, if you take Chris Hinkel's list as a base line.

Koby
09-02-2012, 06:38 PM
something like this?
3-4x sublime archangel

Every single card has to be evaluated in terms of use and strength.

Sublime Angel is neither useful, nor powerful. It's just a beater.

NathanS2k
09-03-2012, 01:43 AM
^ Doubt it.

I actually take that back. I originally thought the casting cost was UW. But it was U or W. I guess it does have potentials.

Morte
09-03-2012, 04:58 AM
I’m playing M@verick’s Vial list since a while and I like it a lot. Judge’s Familiar seems very interesting in this build. The list is SFM based and already replaces Hierarch with BoP to maximize the connection with the swords. Familiar, with its +1 power is even better in this role, and unlike BoP, it can profit Jitte too.

I tested an anti-combo package of 4 Familiar, 4 Thalia and 1 Teeg and I love their synergy (Teeg has no drawback in this Zenithless list).

I also added Safekeeper as the 5th MoR.

The list:

4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith

4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Weathered Wayfarer

4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scryb Ranger

4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares


My first tests have been very promising. With this package the combo matchup is much better, control matchup is improved too, also tribal matchup is better with an extra Lackey blocker and Jitte carrier. I see no drawbacks at all, at least considering the standard M@verick’s Vial list.

Maybe it’s too early to find conclusions, but if I can pronounce and omen, I could say that with the introduction of Judge’s Familiar Maverick is going to be the strongest deck of the format :tongue:

Asthereal
09-03-2012, 06:10 AM
Cavern of Souls works pretty terribly with the Judge's Familiar.
I suggest we choose between either of them and go from there.
Let's have a look:

Judge's Familiar
W, creature - bird, 1/1
Flying
Sacrifice: counter sorcery or instant unless caster pays 1.

What does this bird do exactly?
1. It's a one drop, so we should take that into account regarding mana curve.
2. It disrupts RUG Delver and almost all combo decks.
3. It attacks, but only marginally. Terrible clock on its own.
4. It flies, so it could carry swords and swing like a MF.

1. The mana curve.

Our one drops are:
1. Mother of Runes: key card, protects the whole army and helps ride our other critters to victory.
2. Noble Hierarch: mana ramper, but also exalts our other beaters for more damage.
3. Green Sun's Zenith into Arbor: ramps, but late game Zeniths turn into Knights or Oozes, which win games.

Concluding: all our one drops are versatile. They suck as beaters on thier own, but they provide much needed protection, exalted to make other beaters bigger, or turn into late game big shots. The new bird is also versatile, but the versatility doesn't always work. Players can play around its ability, so its ability will not always work, leaving you with a not so good 1/1 flying beater. It's only good early game, late game it becomes a dead draw.

2. Combo decks kill us.

Most combo decks will just kill us. Competent players mulligan well, remove our hate bear and then go in for the kill with Tendrils, or do a turn one Empty the Warrens for too much, or counter our hate bear and Show and Tell an Emrakul. We can beat that if we are lucky and they are not, but the combo matchup will always be a tough one if you aren't playing blue for FoWs. The new bird gives us something new: turn one protection. Current hate bears land turn 2 at their earliest. This bird lands turn one, giving you more time to land the other bears. Problem is: it only slows down. The opponent will need one more mana to go off, so we invest a turn in this bird, they invest a turn in getting one more mana. We NEED a second hate bear to make this bird a proper disruptor.

Concluding: it cannot replace a hate bear, because it will slow down the combo players, but it will not stop them fully.

3 and 4. Terrible clock on its own, but does carry equipment nicely.

Turn one Judge's Familiar. Turn two attack for 1. That doesn't help at all. It also doesn't ramp into bigger beaters, or protect bigger beaters very well, so this dude does not help at all if you want to win fast. Someone noted that it carries Jitte like a BAWS. True, but we are cutting the equipment plan more and more. I never see more than two Jittes, and I see no Stoneforgle Mystics at all anymore. Some still play two, but that's it.

If we want this dude to ever be a dangerous attacker, it MUST have a sword to carry. To make this work consistently, we will need more than just two Jittes somewhere in the deck.

So to get this dude to work well, we need to include:
4x The new birdy Judge's Familiar
2-4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (or whatever Sword you like best), next to the 2 Jittes already in your 60

That's a lot of slots. My current list is:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary /26

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte /12

4 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith /22

I want to include 4x bird, 1x SoLaS, 2x SFM. What do I take out?
I think I should try:
-1 Fauna Shaman, -1 Noble Hierarch, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (goes to the sideboard), -1 Qasali Pridemage. That's five, but I need two more slots. What do you guys suggest? Taking out the other Hierarchs slows the deck down quite a bit. That doesn't seem like a very good idea...

Morte
09-03-2012, 07:01 AM
With your list you could cut one of the 2 Jitte, since you’re adding 2 SFM, and a Silvan Library or another Pridemage for the last slot. It’s a shame to cut a Thalia btw, if your goal is to improve combo matchup.

However, I suggest you to try the Vial version or at least a build with a full package of 4 SFM (working at best with vials) + 3 equipments if you want to profit Judge’s Familiar: otherwise I think it’s just subpar.

Look at current DTB, tribal is a thing now. SFM could be out of fashion, but maybe it’s time for it to come back.

I agree that Cavern doesn’t fit well with so many non-humans: my updated list

4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Weathered Wayfarer

4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scryb Ranger

4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

mini1337s
09-03-2012, 07:11 AM
I don't think Judge's Familiar fits into what Maverick currently looks like as a deck.
I see it fitting into what Maverick initially was, with no GSZ and Aether Vials. Morte's list seems to follow what my gut feeling says about Judge's Familiar. A more tempo orientated GW deck, sacrificing mana ramp for additional combo control.

Thoughts on something like this?

CREATURES: 24
CMC 1
4x Mother of Runes
4x Judge's Familiar

CMC 2
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger (or a second Ooze)

CMC 3
4x Knight of the Reliquary

NON-CREATURE SPELLS: 11
4x Aether Vial
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Manabase:
4x Rishadon Port ???
4x Wasteland
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Maze of Ith/Horizon Canopy?

Morte
09-03-2012, 12:04 PM
The idea of the Rishadan Ports is interesting, but I fear 9 colorless lands are too many for Maverick, even in a vial builds. I wouldn’t change the mana base so much personally, M@verick’s one is already highly optimized (quite standard but for the 3 of Horizon Canopy, since with Vial you should have more free mana also he plays Wayfarer).

About Zenith and Vials, time ago the general consensus was that they are too antisynergic to be mixed. I like your attempt at using a couple Zeniths to justify your one ofs: please share the results of your testing.

Final Fortune
09-03-2012, 02:06 PM
I don't really think you need to play SFM to make Judge's Familiar good, that card is just a shitty tempo sink if you're only using it to tutor for Jitte, becuase you may as well just play another Jitte instead.

kai_nsane
09-03-2012, 04:52 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm sorry I interrupted your discussion, but I have a question.

Atm i play this Sideboard:
2x Etherswon Canonist (Storm)
1x Bojuka Bog (Dredge, GY Hate)
1x Gaddock Teeg (Miracle) or Phyrexian Revoker (Planeswalker, Fetch..)
1x Krosan Grip (Miracle, Stoneblade, Countertop, Cursed Totem)
2x Tormod’s Crypt (GY Hate, Dredge, Reanimator)
2x Path to Exile (Gobbos, Zoo, Merfolk)
1x Faerie Macabre (GY Hate, Shaman Toolbox)
1x Aven Mindcensor (Mirror, Shaman Toolbox)
1x Linvala Keeper of Silence (Mirror, Shaman Toolbox)
1x Crop Rotation (Landsucher – Maze, Karaks, Bojuka Bog)
1x Life from the Loam (Lands, Delver)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Miracle, Aggro Decks, )

Straight Maindeck with 3 Ooze, 2 Jittes, 1 Fauna Shaman, 4 thalias, 1 Teeg.

I maye would like to add 1 Krosan Grip. How is your attitude towards to Dueling Grounds? I think its good against Gobbos (Krenko is then useless), Merfolk, Dredge and Miracle Totems. Would you recommend to add this Card or is it underpowerd/useless?

Thank you for your informations.

that0neguy
09-03-2012, 05:05 PM
I think people are focusing too much on making him a flying equipment holding monster, by adding in more bad equipment.

Equipment is expensive to cast, and a huge temp sink if it gets blown up. I would just stick to 2 jittes and not dick around with SFM. SFM is currently only worth running for batterskull in my opinion. And I don't think Maverick already has its big monster in the form of knight. Its just not a role that needs to be filled. Without SFM the swords become a lot worse.

He can still bash in Exalted for 2-3, but there is no reason to design the entire deck around hitting with judge, which might just sac himself for value. Heck putting equipment on him at all largely turns him into a Sun Tail Hawk holding a sword. If you keep investing more mana into him, you might not be able to sac him to counter a spell until you get some value out of him first.

I don't play Mav, but if I did I think I would want it to look like this:
4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Judge Framilar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Gardian of Thraban
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gadock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karkas
1 Canopy
1 Cradle
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Savanah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Plains

If you wanted to try and play with the numbers a bit, I don't think I would want to shave any of the 4 of's. It seems like whenever I am playing against Mav with Rug/Dredge/Sneak they are some of the most important/versitile spells. The main things that I cut were the Library, and Fauna Shaman, otherwise i'm not entirely sure how I made room for them.

I think the Judge is a notable inclusion for the deck though.

lordofthepit
09-04-2012, 01:31 AM
http://castlesandcooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/h-dryad-militant.jpg

Yes, please!

Koby
09-04-2012, 01:39 AM
This card is very interesting. It may cause a new version of Zoo to be built.

lordofthepit
09-04-2012, 01:58 AM
This card is very interesting. It may cause a new version of Zoo to be built.

Trying to brew a build as we speak. This is finally an aggressive one-drop besides Nacatl that doesn't suck hard.

Unfortunately, it's a complete non-bo with Punishing Fire.

that0neguy
09-04-2012, 02:00 AM
Is that supposed to just be against RUG? I don't think it would be that influential to justifiy the multiple spots it would require to consistently be relavent against RUG. Plus Mav crushes RUG already

Against Dredge it gets looking, therapy, and Dread return, but leaves Bridge and the dredgers

Against combo it shuts off Past in flames, but it seems to me that is not a huge deal, and if it is its just another perm to bounce or Dread of Night

bruizar
09-04-2012, 02:35 AM
Let me just say how much I hate Maverick as a deck even more now with that stupid Dryad. Time for GSZ to get banned. /rant

EDIT: Thank god it dies to both Sulfur Elemental and Nature's Ruin/Virtue's Ruin/Perish. The art is also outstanding, but this card invalidates so many strategies in legacy and doesn't even affect GSZ.

Justin
09-04-2012, 10:04 AM
The Dryad really screws Runechanter's Pike in Standard.

In Legacy, it's an efficient 2/1 beater for 1 mana that has an ability with many uses, as noted above. I wonder how many Maverick will want to add. Maverick will surely want at least one, as you can tutor for it with GSZ and have it on the board by turn two. Is it good enough to run multiples? If yes, what do you cut to fit them in?

Esper3k
09-04-2012, 10:12 AM
I don't think Maverick actually wants to run any of the Dryad Militant. It's ability is pretty narrow and Ooze is just so much better.

Einherjer
09-04-2012, 10:20 AM
I will play one in the Mainboard for sure. It has so many applications...and it is finally a good GSZ-Tutortarget for X=1 that isnt Hierarch...

Greetings

Esper3k
09-04-2012, 10:25 AM
I'm much more interested in the Selesnya Charm for Maverick, myself.

xiaocho
09-04-2012, 11:51 AM
I will play one in the Mainboard for sure. It has so many applications...and it is finally a good GSZ-Tutortarget for X=1 that isnt Hierarch...

Greetings



dont be discouraged. if u think some new tech might work out, just go for it.

afterwards u can tell us whether it has worked out or not. experience is much more valuable than theorycrafting.

Koby
09-04-2012, 11:52 AM
I'm going to withhold any judgment of Ravnica cards until the entire set is up. There's going to be a lot of options in the set being :g:/:w:.

Dzra
09-04-2012, 07:59 PM
I'm pretty sure Militant is an easy 2-3 of.

Dredge - Therapy, Looting, Dread Return

Stoneblade - Lingering Souls, Snapcaster

ANT - Past in Flames, Therapy

High Tide - makes chaining harder off of Time Spiral

RUG - Mongoose and Goyf

It murders Life from the Loam. It can make Intuition awkward.

.:saturno:.
09-04-2012, 08:16 PM
why driad is better than ooze? i dont believe!

KobeBryan
09-04-2012, 08:20 PM
why driad is better than ooze? i dont believe!

no one said it is.

Barbed Blightning
09-05-2012, 02:39 AM
why driad is better than ooze? i dont believe!

Different interactions. DM kills spells; Ooze eats up creatures. Combined they kill most GY decks outright (though, if Dredge is fast enough, it's really hard to say whether or not DM will be relevant enough).

As stated above, testing will prove or disprove theory.

tonedown
09-05-2012, 11:51 AM
I will play one in the Mainboard for sure. It has so many applications...and it is finally a good GSZ-Tutortarget for X=1 that isnt Hierarch...

Greetings

You forgot Sylvan Safekeeper. :P

Einherjer
09-05-2012, 02:03 PM
You forgot Sylvan Safekeeper. :P

I said good.

lambert101
09-09-2012, 11:39 PM
List I am thinking about messing with. Thoughts?

Creatures [26]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [4]
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [22]
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath