[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Fatal]

Looks like Luis had nice last two days: top5 on BoM VII Trial (420 ppl) http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10818&iddeck=79011.
Interesting that both lists doesn't have single change :).

[allek]

Go Luis!
Hopefully you'll do well in the main event and get some coverage.

[door]

Good luck, Luis! Hope to read a report from you afterwards =)

[M@verick]

Today it was great again
I managed to do 8-1, buy I started with two byes.
Will see tomorrow.

Jund 2-0
Zoo 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Rug agro 2-0
Reanimator 2-1
Shardless bug 1-2
Rug delver 2-0

[Fatal]

Great to hear ! Congratz and GL day 2.

[ironclad8690]

We're rooting for you all over the world. Maverick ftw!

http://www.twitch.tv/watchdamatch/b/401323718

[feline]

Congrats on the Maverick success, I love the Vials & Revokers, it feels like it's pulling a bit out of Death & Taxes with that, & the Wayfarer tricks look like fun!

[Philipp2293]

Luis finished first after swiss rounds. GL for the top 8!

[litenkatt]

We're rooting for you all over the world. Maverick ftw!

http://www.twitch.tv/watchdamatch/b/401323718

I dont understand how could he activate wayfarer when they were both on 3 lands?

[kai_nsane]

Congrats to Luis =)

I like your list. But atm I prefer the blacksplash. It improves the Bad MUs like Miracle and the other MUs dont get bad.

My List Looks like this:

4 KotR
4 MoR
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 SfM
2 Qasali

4 GSZ
4 Thoughtseize
3 StP
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
2 Elspeth
3 ETutor
1 ORing
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Story Cycle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Zuran Orb
1 SoFaF

In my test the Deck plays very good. I like the one Manaplaneswalker MoR and DS. There Nuts!
Sometimes i think to Swap the SFM and Batterskull against a 2nd Jitte and 2 Mirran Crusader, because they were in my GW build awesome. Also the Batterskull is difficult to hardcast, when the SfM gets bolted. Then i probably have to change Thoughtseize into IoK, because of the Lifeloss. What do you think about my idea?

The Sideboard change often, because i test a lot around, but if you have some tips, i would like to hear it =)

[menace13]

I dont understand how could he activate wayfarer when they were both on 3 lands?
He stacked Horizon Canopy sac for draw then activated Wayfarer in response.

Gratz M@verick.

[TiltingKitty]

Luis finished first after swiss rounds. GL for the top 8!

Are BoM final standings and top 8 decklists anywhere on the Internet?

[HoneyT]

Are BoM final standings and top 8 decklists anywhere on the Internet?

Yes.

http://www.watchdamatch.com/tournois/coverage/bom-day-4/

[lordofthepit]

So given Luis' success, what's the verdict here? Is Vial Maverick the best form of the deck? Or is this more a result of his skill and familiarity with the deck?

[Kl'rt]

So given Luis' success, what's the verdict here? Is Vial Maverick the best form of the deck? Or is this more a result of his skill and familiarity with the deck?

Exactly what I was thinking. Can somebody give some insight as to why Vial Maverick is better than GSZ Maverick in this meta? AFAIK, Vial makes our creatures un-counterable, and allows us to deploy them faster. However, it's a pretty bad top deck in the late game. GSZ let's us tutor for any creature the situation warrants, and is never a dead card no matter what stage the game is at.

Why is Vial Maverick that much better vs Miracle than GSZ Maverick?

Maybe it really is just Luis' play skill. Perhaps he'd perform even better playing GSZ Maverick? :eyebrow:

[Koby]

Weathered Wayfarer is one hell of a card against fair decks.
Similary, the hatebears against combo.

So between Vial cheating those into play and not having to spend mana to deploy threats is great strategy.

[M@verick]

Thanks guys!
I finished fifth in the end, after being first at swiss.

I did 5-0-1 in the second day.

Merfolks 2-0
Reanimator 2-0
Team america 2-0
Ant 2-1 (coveraged, much luck)
Sneak attack 2-1
Rug ID

then in top8 I faced jund which kicked my ass 1-2.
Good game!

It was a great long weekend

[door]

Thanks guys!
I finished fifth in the end, after being first at swiss.

I did 5-0-1 in the second day.

Merfolks 2-0
Reanimator 2-0
Team america 2-0
Ant 1-2 (coveraged, much luck)
Sneak attack 2-1
Rug ID

then in top8 I faced jund which kicked my ass 1-2.
Good game!

It was a great long weekend

Congratulations with the great finish! And thanks for signing the birds of paradice for me. Can't wait to receive it =)
And eagerly waiting for the report!

[Quinta]

Thanks guys!
I finished fifth in the end, after being first at swiss.

I did 5-0-1 in the second day.

Merfolks 2-0
Reanimator 2-0
Team america 2-0
Ant 1-2 (coveraged, much luck)
Sneak attack 2-1
Rug ID

then in top8 I faced jund which kicked my ass 1-2.
Good game!

It was a great long weekend

Congrats Luis

[Morte]

Thanks guys!
I finished fifth in the end, after being first at swiss.

I did 5-0-1 in the second day.

Merfolks 2-0
Reanimator 2-0
Team america 2-0
Ant 2-1 (coveraged, much luck)
Sneak attack 2-1
Rug ID

then in top8 I faced jund which kicked my ass 1-2.
Good game!

It was a great long weekend

You are the flagship of the Maverick thread :cool:

I wasn't playing this deck for a while but you gave me the charge again, thanx Luis!

[M@verick]

Lot of thanks guys!

I am really sorry buy I won't do a report. Too many rounds and i can't remember all.
If anywant want to see videos of the deck, i was coverged against bant R9 in trial legacy and in R13 against ANT in legacy main event.

@door hope you like Bop ;)

[Richard Cheese]

Great job Luis! Here's the list, for anyone interested:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Choke

[ironclad8690]

I was skimming through trying to find the name "Luis" but they had you as yoan f http://screencast.com/t/Yp9cAWCkTUF

Here's the ANT match link: http://www.twitch.tv/watchdamatch/c/2279496

[Megadeus]

Very interesting list indeed. Vial seems sweet. I'm surprised by no GSZ. and I assume the BoP over Noble due to flying? Throwing a swords on a bird seems powerful

[alphastryk]

Very interesting list indeed. Vial seems sweet. I'm surprised by no GSZ. and I assume the BoP over Noble due to flying? Throwing a swords on a bird seems powerful

Is it really Maverick without GSZ and with Vial? It looks a lot like the old Green splashed Death & Taxes decks (Green & Taxes or whatever) more than Maverick to me.

[Megadeus]

Is it really Maverick without GSZ and with Vial? It looks a lot like the old Green splashed Death & Taxes decks (Green & Taxes or whatever) more than Maverick to me.

My thoughts as well. Looks very D&Tish with the various different hate bears. And vial.

[kiwi]

The deck from Luis "Maverick" isnt death and taxes, his deck is the original Maverick deck, you can read in the first page how at the beginning the deck had vials.

He created the deck, of course there were another GW decks but he was the first to find the keys for making gw a deck to beat in legacy: Knights of reliquaries , vials, stoneforge + equipments,2 scryb rangers, wayfarers and mothers, not tarmogoyfs ... people from another countries took this decklist and played green sun's zeniths rather than vials, but he tested zeniths and he decided to continue playing vials.

Moreover he has been talking about his deck in Spanish forums since 2010 http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2398 , and this thread started in 2011

[alphastryk]

The deck from Luis "Maverick" isnt death and taxes, his deck is the original Maverick deck, you can read in the first page how at the beginning the deck had vials.

He created the deck, of course there were another GW decks but he was the first to find the keys for making gw a deck to beat in legacy: Knights of reliquaries , vials, stoneforge + equipments,2 scryb rangers, wayfarers and mothers, not tarmogoyfs ... people from another countries took this decklist and played green sun's zeniths rather than vials, but he tested zeniths and he decided to continue playing vials.

Moreover he has been talking about his deck in Spanish forums since 2010 http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2398 , and this thread started in 2011

Ok, that makes sense. In my mind Maverick was defined as a GW Zenith deck, and I'd only heard of GW vial decks being developed as improvements to D&T in 2011.

Edit - Green & Taxes from what I remember - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37574

[door]

Lot of thanks guys!

I am really sorry buy I won't do a report. Too many rounds and i can't remember all.


that's no good :frown:.
Could you please write your thoughts on how you came to this list and what meta were you preparing for? What was your plan vs Jund and how did you sideboard against it? Why 4! oblivion rings and 2 rest in peace in sb when you already have surgicals? Why only 3 kotr?

[ironclad8690]

The deck from Luis "Maverick" isnt death and taxes, his deck is the original Maverick deck, you can read in the first page how at the beginning the deck had vials.

He created the deck, of course there were another GW decks but he was the first to find the keys for making gw a deck to beat in legacy: Knights of reliquaries , vials, stoneforge + equipments,2 scryb rangers, wayfarers and mothers, not tarmogoyfs ... people from another countries took this decklist and played green sun's zeniths rather than vials, but he tested zeniths and he decided to continue playing vials.

Moreover he has been talking about his deck in Spanish forums since 2010 http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2398 , and this thread started in 2011

Gotta love google translate

http://screencast.com/t/ffjCP1S3v

[.:saturno:.]

regards to maverick for the result, but swap zenith for vial is madness and isn't maverick for me.
anyway has anyone tried voice of resurgence?

[M@verick]

Could you please write your thoughts on how you came to this list and what meta were you preparing for? What was your plan vs Jund and how did you sideboard against it? Why 4! oblivion rings and 2 rest in peace in sb when you already have surgicals? Why only 3 kotr?

The list works fine in a high % of the meta. I went to 4 oblivion rings side not only becuase show and tell decks, where they shine. I use them as extra removal siding out thalias and gaddocks against mirror and tribal decks. Rings are also very good against decks like mud and blade/miracle, where replace stp.

Knights are incredible, but not as good as they were before deathrite shaman.

And Jund... the pairing was very hard at begining, and I decided to include in main deck sylvan safekeeper, which improved the MU a bit (having together safekeper plus kinght is strong). But it wasnt enough, and decided to add some rips on SB. However, the MU is still difficult and is always a hard fight. Main problem: engineered plague.
I usually side out 2 gaddocks, 1 vial and 1 scryb ranger. 2 rips are necesary, and 2 or 3 rings are also needed, because is an aditional removal and the only out against plague.

[ironclad8690]

The list works fine in a high % of the meta. I went to 4 oblivion rings side not only becuase show and tell decks, where they shine. I use them as extra removal siding out thalias and gaddocks against mirror and tribal decks. Rings are also very good against decks like mud and blade/miracle, where replace stp.

Knights are incredible, but not as good as they were before deathrite shaman.

And Jund... the pairing was very hard at begining, and I decided to include in main deck sylvan safekeeper, which improved the MU a bit (having together safekeper plus kinght is strong). But it wasnt enough, and decided to add some rips on SB. However, the MU is still difficult and is always a hard fight. Main problem: engineered plague.
I usually side out 2 gaddocks, 1 vial and 1 scryb ranger. 2 rips are necesary, and 2 or 3 rings are also needed, because is an aditional removal and the only out against plague.

I think this is why us Green Sun's Zenithians have been incorporating Sigarda, although I don't think she would be effective in your version (not tutorable).

[dcosiem]

I think Aether Vial in this deck is insane. Like it's cousin, death and Taxes, to have the ability to sneak in critters at different points in the game to create whatever effect is so probable for winning. I still run 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list, but to play an eot Knight of R or to sneak him to block a creature, which the creature dies if blocked, I think it's awesome.

Has anyone consider the Mangara of Corondor in this deck with Scryb Ranger? Exile two permanents instead of one on the stack with Ranger and still return to hand with Karakas? It's brilliant.

[ironclad8690]

I think Aether Vial in this deck is insane. Like it's cousin, death and Taxes, to have the ability to sneak in critters at different points in the game to create whatever effect is so probable for winning. I still run 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list, but to play an eot Knight of R or to sneak him to block a creature, which the creature dies if blocked, I think it's awesome.

Has anyone consider the Mangara of Corondor in this deck with Scryb Ranger? Exile two permanents instead of one on the stack with Ranger and still return to hand with Karakas? It's brilliant.

Whoa, that is an awesome synergy!

[TiltingKitty]

I think Aether Vial in this deck is insane. Like it's cousin, death and Taxes, to have the ability to sneak in critters at different points in the game to create whatever effect is so probable for winning. I still run 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list, but to play an eot Knight of R or to sneak him to block a creature, which the creature dies if blocked, I think it's awesome.

Has anyone consider the Mangara of Corondor in this deck with Scryb Ranger? Exile two permanents instead of one on the stack with Ranger and still return to hand with Karakas? It's brilliant.

The hard part is getting to the point where the Mangara is not-summoning-sick. Paying 3 mana for a 1/1 while still leaving Karakas up doesn't leave you a lot of room to do anything else. I imagine it's a lot easier when you have access to AEther Vials, but the one time I tried playing Death & Taxes it was still a lot clunkier than I'd been led to expect.

I do wish there were a way to abuse Flickerwisp in GW Maverick. Card is insane.

[Megadeus]

The hard part is getting to the point where the Mangara is not-summoning-sick. Paying 3 mana for a 1/1 while still leaving Karakas up doesn't leave you a lot of room to do anything else. I imagine it's a lot easier when you have access to AEther Vials, but the one time I tried playing Death & Taxes it was still a lot clunkier than I'd been led to expect.

I do wish there were a way to abuse Flickerwisp in GW Maverick. Card is insane.

You could run more ETB effects like E Witness and stuff. I feel like you could build towards it, but I think in the end, Scryb Ranger is a better FLicker Wisp (In the sense of getting more triggers) in this deck.

[MrShine]

Vials are amazing, I've been running them for a while now and its been really positive. Wayfarers are also really useful. Don't knock it 'til you try it.

My post from a few months ago:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-DTB-GW-x-Maverick&p=691321&viewfull=1#post691321

The best part is, people get confused when you play mana dorks AND Vial; they often have no idea what to expect.

Mangaras were interesting, too, but definitely a bit clunky, even with Vial; I often want to keep a vial on 2 over moving it to 3 in this list, mostly because of Karakas + Thalia & Teeg.

Don't forget that Safekeeper can set up a huge Knight for the kill.

'Grats on the Finish M@verick!

[ironclad8690]

I wonder if anyone has tried experimenting with a GWr/GWb/GWu vial build.

[TiltingKitty]

The best part is, people get confused when you play mana dorks AND Vial; they often have no idea what to expect.

Between mana dorks, Vials, miscellaneous 1/1s and no Zenith, do you ever wind up not drawing enough ways to actually kill them? (Is that the primary reason for the Sword package?)

[door]

Between mana dorks, Vials, miscellaneous 1/1s and no Zenith, do you ever wind up not drawing enough ways to actually kill them? (Is that the primary reason for the Sword package?)

That's a rear thing, just because there's more card advantage in this build in comparison with the zenith build.

[Hof]

Congratulations to M@verick for placing so well in several large tournaments with a unique deck that you can call your own. This is a sort of achievement that most of us can only dream of.

I have played Maverick from time to time with either Green Sun or Vial, and I think both versions have their strengths and weaknesses. I am not totally convinced about playing mana creatures in the Vial builds, though. With no GSZ the only things that can be accelerated on turn two is Knight. Stoneforge/Equipment isn't much faster with Birds, because you still can't equip before turn three. I understand the importance of flyers here, and the synergy with Wayfahrer, but Birds just never seem to do much for me in this type of deck. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but I would rather have some more disruption. I think Judge's Familiar has great synergy with Thaila and the mana denial theme in general. It is a Cursecatcher with flying in a deck that has much stronger mana denial than Merfolk.

[Fatal]

@hof - Cursecatcher was not only mana daniel plan, but also a beater with Lords. Here Judge Familiar is at best:
- Exchange for spell (instant/sorcery) - taxing - or with vial it get value.
- Equip handler.
- Exchange with Vendilion/Soul token
- Chump Delver.
- Dredge - Bridge Burner ;)

I think it can be useful in proper meta where is a lot of S&T/Combo decks as a T1 hatebear.

[JanoschEausH]

What is the reason to run Birds of Paradise over Noble Hierarchs in the vial build?

[Philipp2293]

Connecting with equipment is easier.

[TiltingKitty]

- Dredge - Bridge Burner ;)

...but only if you draw one of the four STPs, or use Vial in response to Dread Return. Still pretty loose.

I keep thinking there should be a Dryad Arbor in there somewhere. It's a Sword carrier you can tutor with KOTR/Wayfarer/fetchlands and it provides infinite chumps with the Scryb Rangers.

[Qweerios]

Maverick with Vials reminds me of a little deck I made called "Big Two" in the developing competitive section. It started out as a GW aggro Vial deck that exchanged GSZ for Fauna Shaman and used Squadron Hawk to generate card advantage. It has some very strong tricks in the form of instant speed tutors of any 2 CMC creature notably Phyrexian Revoker in response to Pernicious Deed/Liliana/Top/ Jace, Teeg in response to a Miracle Trigger. Connecting with a Sword of Light and Shadow generally meant a continuous stream of tutors as well. The deck eventually started splashing blue for Daze, sometimes Brainstorm (in Thalia-less versions), and some singletons like Void Stalker, Waterfront Bouncer, Gilded Drake, Meddling Mage, and Phantasmal Image. In case you haven't realized, Gilded Drake + Waterfront Bouncer means that you can discard a card every turn to steal a creature.

KotR and Mangara were suggested countless times and perhaps 1-2 KotR should make their way into the deck but the main plan is to keep a Vial @2 at all times. Judge's Familia definitely has some merit with Thalia and a strong equipment package, and would probably be even stronger combined with Daze.

[Pans-Advocate]

...but only if you draw one of the four STPs, or use Vial in response to Dread Return. Still pretty loose.

I keep thinking there should be a Dryad Arbor in there somewhere. It's a Sword carrier you can tutor with KOTR/Wayfarer/fetchlands and it provides infinite chumps with the Scryb Rangers.

It also ramps you to 3 mana on turn 2 when you play a turn 1 Vial.

[MrShine]

I found the mana guys useful because of the times where you DON'T just draw Vial and play free stuff; both Vial and Hierarch/Birds allow you to get the goods out of your hand while still applying pressure via Wasteland, and it doesn't hurt to have more 1 drops for Vial (MoR is the ideal play), and that's where Wayfarer fits in as well. I'm still not entirely sure if it's really necessary, but I did like the consistency it offered me when I wasn't being a boss and drawing Vial every game; sort of a contingency for solid curves every game.

Stoneforge is definitely more integral to this type of strategy due to the high concentration of weenies in the build; Jitte is definitely a game-breaking card and any dude with 1 power does the job at that point - which, I might add, is why I personally prefer Hierarchs over Birds; I find Jitte much more consistent and flexible in general, and am never really satisfied with the Sword of X and Ys, so in this case having a 'dork with power is preferable. If I am playing swords I keep them in the board to bring in for specific matchups, and in that case it doesn't really matter if my guys have flying or not because they will just have the right protections anyway.

Oh, and another thing; mana dorks means having more creatures on the board in general which powers up Gaea's Cradle significantly; when you are burning through your lands for wastelands w/ knight, you are still able to generate mana to play and equip jitte, etc.

[ivanpei]

I think you guys need to test the Thespian Stage-Dark Depths combo in this deck now. It's the perfect fit for this deck. I'd cut some silver bullets lands for 3 Stage and some random silver bullet dudes for 2 Crop rotation and 1 Dark Depths. It's ridiculous!

[Sansian]

Why do you need more than one stage? Seems silly to add 3 of a card that borks your mana, when you can get by just as we'll with one.

[ivanpei]

Why do you need more than one stage? Seems silly to add 3 of a card that borks your mana, when you can get by just as we'll with one.

Drawing a single Thespian Stage is ok. It comes into play untapped and makes colourless. Seems decent. GW Mav makes use of plenty of colourless so it doesn't Bog your mana at all. Playing 3 gives you a higher chance to have a Stage in play so you only have to activate Knight/ Crop Rotation once. Makes you a turn quicker.

[ironclad8690]

I'm sorry but what exactly is the process to getting merit lage? wouldn't copying dark depths kill both?

Edit: Nevermind, I saw the rules update just now. This is gonna be an awesome chapter in the book of maverick hopefully.

[zulander]

New rules state that when you put one into play you pick which one stays/dies. You make a copy of DD, DD dies, your new one has no counters on it, you sac it and put a 20/20 into play. With KotR you can do this on opponent's EOT, untap, draw, give the token protection via MOM and then win. Seems good! It doesn't go off until turn 4 at the least.

[Poron]

doesn't Vesuva work well with Depths too?... would it ETB with the counters?

[ivanpei]

Doesn't need protection for evasion, it flies! ;) Vesuva ETB with counters, so nope it doesn't work.

[Morte]

M@verick’s list could add the combo with a minimal impact: it already plays a lot of land tutoring in the form of Weathered Wayfarer and Knight of the Reliquary. Something like:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

Flagstones of Trokair, another card improved by new legendary rules, is also cool with Sylvan Safekeeper, even if probably doesn’t make the cut here.

[Koby]

I don't get the whole fascination with Marit Lage. You could just fetch another Fetchland for KotR and still have something that wins.

In order to get Marit Lage out: play/fetch Dark Depths, fetch Thespian Stage, spend 3 mana, gain 20/20. How much work is this compared just using KotR for value?

[ivanpei]

I think cutting GSZ is a very bad idea. The flexibility is what makes Mav so adaptable. Wayfarer seems ok, but I still prefer crop rotation because Wayfarer is something you can see coming, whereas Crop Rotation + one component already in play is an Auto win if done on opponents EOT. However wayfarer is card advantage, so they are pros and cons. I'd also prefer to spend the first few turns doing what Mav does best, which is tempo plays and hatebears. The 20/20 plan comes into play when your initial onslaught couldn't quite get there or there is a ground stall. Spending your first few turns assembling the combo with Wayfarer seems slow and mana-consuming. You won't always be on the draw/have a fetch, so Wayfarer doesn't always work. Also, you are telegraphing the plan very obviously to the opponent.

Edit: Thats why it's important to play more than 1 Thespian's stage. Multiples give you a higher % of drawing it. If you already have 1 component in play, 1 KOTR tap/ crop rotation is GG. Crop rotation also does lot of things such as turning an extra land into a Maze later in the game, or as a tutor for Karakas to bounce Emrakul.

This deck needs the extra punch from the combo to put it over the top. It's great for ground stalls and against decks like UW Miracles. If they tap out for Jace etc, sometimes you can just suddenly win out of nowhere. Without the combo finish, it is hard to kill in time before Terminus ruins the day.

[zulander]

I don't get the whole fascination with Marit Lage. You could just fetch another Fetchland for KotR and still have something that wins.

In order to get Marit Lage out: play/fetch Dark Depths, fetch Thespian Stage, spend 3 mana, gain 20/20. How much work is this compared just using KotR for value?

It's just another "oops I win" combo that can be easily accomplished and doesn't require turn after turn of trying to grow a KotR. Sure it's not fool proof, but as it currently stands decks really only have to be able to deal with Knight in current mav builds. Removing 2-3 "cute" cards to put additional pressure on opponents can be the difference between victory and defeat.

having said that, I think it's best to be relegated to the board, I'm not 100% sold yet.

[Koby]

It's just another "oops I win" combo that can be easily accomplished and doesn't require turn after turn of trying to grow a KotR. Sure it's not fool proof, but as it currently stands decks really only have to be able to deal with Knight in current mav builds. Removing 2-3 "cute" cards to put additional pressure on opponents can be the difference between victory and defeat.

having said that, I think it's best to be relegated to the board, I'm not 100% sold yet.

The strength of this deck is on its rock-solid mana base with lots of basics and simple color fixing.
Adding colorless lands (on top of Wasteland) introduces too much variance on hand that have to rely on finding the initial or subsequent color source.

Talks of adding Dark Depths and at minimum 1 Thespian Stage to achieve a 20/20 that already needs KotR to tutor them up is just a pipedream. If you have KotR, and can activate it, why are you not finding Wasteland to set your opponents back, Horizon Canopy to draw extra cards, or Maze of Ith to attack/use Knight every turn?

More to the point, this all assumes Knight has managed to live a turn. Congrats, you've already beat most Legacy decks at this point.

[catmint]

Agree on the manabase issue. I think it might take more than just taking a stock maverick list and do a -3 +3.

That there are many situations where tapping knight for marit large is stronger than tapping it for bog, fetch, canopy, waste, maze is also obvious so simply saying "If you untap with knight you win" seems a bit optimistic these days. :tongue: I think Maverick is affected by Jund a lot and their ways to interact with Marit Large are limited to a sorcery speed edict and 3 wastelands. Coming up with a build that significantly improves the jund matchup while not losing too much ground versus delver & esper is the challenge.

For what it's worth I think having a random turn 4-5 I win button versus combo does at least not hurt.

[Koby]

True, Abrupt Decay is still a big concern, and adding a fancy three card combo doesn't help to fix it.

I'm skeptical about Depths/Stage being a real thing outside of theory. Most decks in Legacy play hard removal for it via Swords to Plowshares, Karakas, or a simple blocker (Delver/Clique/Lingering Souls).

[ironclad8690]

It just seems fun to get a marit lage and mother of runes in the same deck, especially with wasteland protection for karakas.

[Morte]

I think cutting GSZ is a very bad idea.

M@verick’s (Luis Viciano’s) list is extremely solid, don’t underestimate it just because of the lack of the conventional GSZ build. Luis is one of the strongest Maverick player of Europe, in the last months he won the Spanish nationals and top8ed the Bazaar of Moxen with his list.

I agree that the conventional GSZ build have to pay too much in terms of consistency to support the combo. Wayfarer build on the other hand can do that with a minimal effort and gains a strong C plan over the equipment + weenie and KoR pressure strategies.

Regarding Abrupt Decay, no other deck can protect your token better than this one with Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper, not to forget the best land tutoring engine in the format for Wastelands against Karakas, as said by ironclad8690, and Maze of Ith.

[catmint]

True, Abrupt Decay is still a big concern, and adding a fancy three card combo doesn't help to fix it.

Why is decay a big concern? It is an expensive 1:1 removal. Uncounterable does not matter and hitting jitte/library is not that gamebreaking.
Isn't the combo of bolt, punishing, decay and liliana what gives Maverick troubles versus Jund? And in this case a fancy 2 card combo (why 3 card?) could fix that.

Edit: Agree - from my countless games against M@verick I can say that he and his lists are the nuts. Surely the most annoying and difficult Maverick opponents to play against. Anyway after death and taxes winning the GP I think it is out of the question that also vial hatebear builds have their value.

[ironclad8690]

Marit is indestructible anyways, I think Koby was just saying that abrupt decay is a solid option versus other decks in the format and it just so happens to conveniently kill most of maverick's usual threats, thus making there more removal in the format and making a good portion of the format better positioned vs mav.

The thing about Jund is that many of the normal pieces of the deck just happen to be pretty powerful vs us.

Deathrite - Shrinks knight, ramps into very powerful early plays

Bob/Bloodbraid - Usually pretty dang good card advantage

Liliana - nuts vs us.

That being said, I think the matchup is still close to even. I would definitely playtest vs Jund if preparing for a big event.

[Morte]

from my countless games against M@verick I can say that he and his lists are the nuts. Surely the most annoying and difficult Maverick opponents to play against. Anyway after death and taxes winning the GP I think it is out of the question that also vial hatebear builds have their value.

+1

Generally speaking, this combo reminds me of Iona + Loyal Retainers in old good GW Survival. 2 slots, gamebreaking tech. Why not...

(2 slots considering Wayfarer list)

[zulander]

Agree on the manabase issue. I think it might take more than just taking a stock maverick list and do a -3 +3.

That there are many situations where tapping knight for marit large is stronger than tapping it for bog, fetch, canopy, waste, maze is also obvious so simply saying "If you untap with knight you win" seems a bit optimistic these days. :tongue: I think Maverick is affected by Jund a lot and their ways to interact with Marit Large are limited to a sorcery speed edict and 3 wastelands. Coming up with a build that significantly improves the jund matchup while not losing too much ground versus delver & esper is the challenge.

For what it's worth I think having a random turn 4-5 I win button versus combo does at least not hurt.

This. Untapping with knight doesn't mean auto-win anymore, especially with lists running 4 DRS. This isn't the land of G/W KotR.dec anymore.

[kingsey]

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

[L0cke]

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

I posted a GWB list that I have been running for a while here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26107-Deck-Dark-Depths&p=726688&viewfull=1#post726688) with both pre and post rule change lists. It would not be too difficult to remove the 11 or so main deck black cards if you wanted GW only and I went through a lot of the other interactions in the deck in that post as well.

[ivanpei]

I just picked up the DD combo. I'll be trying it out this week.

What would be the best GW shell to use it in? I do have crop rotations I'd like to use.

I will be playing this list:

4 Noble
4 Knight
4 Mother of Runes
2 Pridemage
4 Thalia
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeq

4 STP
2 Jitte
2 Library
4 GSZ
2 Crop Rotation

4 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Green Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

Cheers! Basically -Cradle, -Horizon Canopy, - Gaddock Teeq,- Scryb Ranger, -2 Fauna Shaman, + 3 Thespian's Stage, + 1 Dark Depths, + 2 Crop Rotation. It's basically shaving the cute stuff down and playing only the Maverick essentials with the new combo. Mav decks had too many spare slot and we've all been experimenting with plenty of cute stuff. I think combo > Cute stuff in it's potential to straight up win games.

[KobeBryan]

I will be playing this list:

4 Noble
4 Knight
4 Mother of Runes
2 Pridemage
4 Thalia
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeq

4 STP
2 Jitte
2 Library
4 GSZ
2 Crop Rotation

4 Savanna
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Green Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

Cheers! Basically -Cradle, -Horizon Canopy, - Gaddock Teeq,- Scryb Ranger, -2 Fauna Shaman, + 3 Thespian's Stage, + 1 Dark Depths, + 2 Crop Rotation. It's basically shaving the cute stuff down and playing only the Maverick essentials with the new combo. Mav decks had too many spare slot and we've all been experimenting with plenty of cute stuff. I think combo > Cute stuff in it's potential to straight up win games.

I'd try to fit a loam somewhere in there.

[Sansian]

I'm telling you that 4 gimped lands really hurts the mana. The idea shouldn't be to rush out a 20/20 so much as to add inevitability. Horizon Canopy, Scryb Ranger, and Teeg are literally some of the most important cards in the deck. Scryb most of all. She does work all day.

[Megadeus]

Just remember this doesnt actually work right now everyone ;)

[catmint]

Just remember this doesnt actually work right now everyone ;)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Morte]

What do you mean Megadeus? Is there an errata? Please share.

Anyway, I think the best suit for the combo is the Wayfarer/Vial version. I’m testing M@verick BoM list -1 Horizon Canopy -1 Caver of Souls +1 Dark Depths +1 Thespian’s Stage:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Pros:


Only two slots devoted to the combo, thanks to the land tutoring engine provided by Wayfarer in addition to KotR
Minimal impact on the manabase
Minimal impact on the gameplan. You go for the combo only if needed or partially assembled
Additional land tutoring makes easier finding Wasteland against opposing Karakas/Maze of Ith
Maindeck MoR AND Sylvan Safekeeper provide extra protection for the token

And the intrinsic advantages of the Vial version:

Greater card advantage than GSZ build (Wayfarer)
More resilient to counters (Vial)
More adaptive to opponent's plan: full equipment options from SFM
More adaptive to opponent's plan: better land tutoring engine
Broader hate bears pool and anti-combo options

[Fatal]

Did anyone try Lightning Greaves instead of one of equipment - it has good synergy and additional it can be suprising playing wayfarer, equip, using it, fetch combo, reequip -> win :]

[Hof]

@Morte
He means: Don't try this in real life before July 13.

I agree with your first approach in principle, but I would probably not remove a land mana source for Depths.
I would probably remove Maze of Ith or a non-land card instead.
I would also try to fit in the 4th Knight of the Reliquary since, if I can fetch up a 20/20, who cares about Deathrite Shaman.

[ivanpei]

That's what I like about the combo. When you're facing common gravehate like Deathrite/Scavenging Ooze etc, which munch up your lands, you get to have an alternate win condition. I'll be experimenting with 2 different packages. One is the 3 Stage/1 Depth/2 Crop Rotation/2 Wayfarer heavy combo build and the other is the 2 Stage/1 Depth/2 Wayfarer light combo build. I think each Mav deck at least needs 1 Stage/1 Depths just for KOTR to search out as an alternate win. Also once the combo is in the deck, I think Maze can be safely relegated to the SB. To be honest, Maze has been used more as a Pseudo Vigilance buff for Knight more than for warding off attackers. Since GW is usually the agressor, Maze is a dead draw very often. I think Dark depths can safely replace Maze and Thespian stage can replace some other non essential lands (Like Cavern of souls etc). Also I've added cradle back into the deck because it is just so powerful and very useful as a mana bump when you have KOTR on the table.

[Norm]

Did anyone try Lightning Greaves instead of one of equipment - it has good synergy and additional it can be suprising playing wayfarer, equip, using it, fetch combo, reequip -> win :]

That's actually quite neat, anyone want to give it a whirl? I'm willing to playtest some of these things on Cockatrice (Wooger) if there's interest.

[ironclad8690]

Played in a small LGS legacy tourny today.

round 1) WBR midrange 2-0

Don't remember much but wastes did work

Round 2) Affinity 2-0

Jitte did its thing both games

Round 3) All Spells 0-2

Game 1: Goes off first turn

Game 2: I enlighten up a rest in peace, I get to play it on my turn two, but he bounces with chain of vapor then goes off. Pretty bad matchup.

Got 2nd overall, with a little store credit to boot.

[Morte]

Nice idea from the Dark Depths thread: Scapeshift, one card combo! With Thespian’s Stage and Dark Depths it’s a sort of Natural Order not even requiring the green critter.

It could be a strong B plan against Miracle, a very fast restart after a Terminus sweep.

[Hof]

So Scapeshift gets the land into play tapped, and next turn you can make a 20/20 token - with summoning sickness?
Seems too slow, and Scapeshift has bad synergy with Thalia and Teeg.

[Morte]

True, but it has potential as a sideboard card. Miracle has a slow game anyway, Jund/TA/BUG have no answer to the token outside a providential Wasteland draw when your Stage is tapped. I think it's worth testing.


GSZ has bad synergy with Thalia and Teeg too but this never stopped Maverick from playing it.

[Pherion]

The little Dark Depths combo is cute, but why is everyone using Thespian Stage when Vesuva is available? It does the same thing, except it does it instantaneously when it comes into play. I don't think you are going to want more than one copy land in your deck though. Seems to dilute the mana base too much with three as some of these lists are showing.

[Asthereal]

Scapeshift into Stage & Depths is kill in three turns. That's just as fast (or slow) as Natural Order into Progenitus, but you save yourself having to sac a green guy.
But... it's vulnerable to Wasteland and Swords to Plowshares, which Progenitus isn't.

I am definitely willing to sac a green dude if that gains my three turn kill protection from everything (except counterspells, obviously). And do we play NORPO in Maverick? Well, I've seen it, but I beat it with a Maverick list without it. It can help, but it also gives you awkward hands with Proggie in it. It's not bad, but definitely not great, and probably not optimal. So Scapeshift into Stage & Depths is probably even less optimal. :wink:

By the way, the argument that GSZ works just as badly with Teeg and Thalia as Scapeshift/Natural Order is wrong. Zenith can always be played before Thalia or Teeg hits the board. Firstly because you can use it as a sort of Llanowar Elf, and secondly because you can Zenith into that one Teeg or into a Ranger/Ooze/whatever, and the turn afterwards play Thalia. But note that Thalia and Teeg, if they are needed, must enter play as soon as may be. You cannot wait until after you have cast a four mana Sorcery that should win you the game in three turns. If you do, the opponent will just use the time you just gave him to set up something even more sick than a 10/10 or 20/20 dude. Thalia and Teeg prevent the opponent from doing unfair stuff, granting you the time to kill him before he has time to recover. Four mana Sorceries just don't fit in that plan, whereas a Zenith complements the Teeg (fetches it), is still castable under Thalia (though slow), and will usually be used before either hits the table, simply because you can. Zenith is a completely different beast.

[Justin]

The little Dark Depths combo is cute, but why is everyone using Thespian Stage when Vesuva is available? It does the same thing, except it does it instantaneously when it comes into play. I don't think you are going to want more than one copy land in your deck though. Seems to dilute the mana base too much with three as some of these lists are showing.

Dark Depths enters the battlefield with ten ice counters on it. Vesuva copies a land as it enters the battlefield, so if you chose to copy Dark Depths, your Vesuva will get ten ice counters. Thespian's Stage, on the other hand, copies Dark Depths with its ability after it enters the battlefield, so it gets no ice counters. That's why Stage works and Vesuva does not.

[Morte]

@Asthereal: I said “GSZ has bad synergy with Thalia and Teeg too”, I didn’t say that it works as badly as Scapeshift/Natural Order with Teeg and Thalia. You can’t play GSZ with Teeg in play as you can’t play Scapeshift, while Thalia just slows it down. That’s what I meant. Anyway, I didn’t suggest Scapeshift as a mainstream plan but just as sideboard card for matchups where you likely (could) need to recover a compromised situation, i.e. after a Terminus or under a Punishing Fire Lock - situations where the standard build of the deck is quite weak.

Regarding the lack of protections of Marit Lage, this deck is well suited with maindeck MoR and Sylvan Safekeeper against StP (not considering that StP is a +20 life for your race), and the token is indestructible to black removals. Add land tutoring for the combo and Wastelands for opposing Karakas, Maze of Ith (and Wastelands on your combo pieces) and you have one of the best environments for the new combo.

The list I’m testing, for reference:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Nihilis]

The little Dark Depths combo is cute, but why is everyone using Thespian Stage when Vesuva is available? It does the same thing, except it does it instantaneously when it comes into play. I don't think you are going to want more than one copy land in your deck though. Seems to dilute the mana base too much with three as some of these lists are showing.

Because when Vesuva enters the battelfield copying dark depths, it will come into play with the ice counters on it. Thespian's stage is already in play, so when you copy the depths it won't get the counters.

[Asthereal]

Cannot agree that GSZ has bad synergy with Teeg.
GSZ actually allows us to play main deck Teeg.
Without GSZ, we need like 2-3 Teeg main deck to consistently have it when needed.
Thalia does have bad synergy with GSZ, but just nowhere near as bad as 4CMC sorceries.

More importantly:
1. I argued that Natural Order is usually better than Scapeshift. I still think that's true, though perhaps not in a Weathered Wayfarer list (which I think is not the strongest right now, but that's just my two cents :tongue: ).
2. If you fear the Terminus so much, why bother messing up your deck? There is always Elspeth. Elspeth is MUCH better as a card on itself. Hard to remove, still good after your big dude gets killed, doesn't need weird cards like Dark Depths to work. I could go on. :smile:

[door]

Did anyone try Lightning Greaves instead of one of equipment - it has good synergy and additional it can be suprising playing wayfarer, equip, using it, fetch combo, reequip -> win :]

I played lightning greaves when fauna shaman + loyal retainers+ elesh norn package was popular. Indeed it had synergy with most of the deck, but it requires stoneforge mystic and a good reason to play (such as a faster combo out + protecting your combo activator). I even wrote about some of my good finishes with that build here.
I think it's better in the zenith build, as virtually it has more creatures than in the vial build. On the other hand the greaves are worse now than it was a year ago, when there were no terminus and maverick didn't play thalia. But the final answer is in testing.

[Morte]

Cannot agree that GSZ has bad synergy with Teeg.
GSZ actually allows us to play main deck Teeg.
Without GSZ, we need like 2-3 Teeg main deck to consistently have it when needed.
Thalia does have bad synergy with GSZ, but just nowhere near as bad as 4CMC sorceries.

More importantly:
1. I argued that Natural Order is usually better than Scapeshift. I still think that's true, though perhaps not in a Weathered Wayfarer list (which I think is not the strongest right now, but that's just my two cents).
2. If you fear the Terminus so much, why bother messing up your deck? There is always Elspeth. Elspeth is MUCH better as a card on itself. Hard to remove, still good after your big dude gets killed, doesn't need weird cards like Dark Depths to work. I could go on.

GSZ is useful to find Teeg when needed, of course, but Teeg HAS bad synergy with GSZ: once you have Teeg in play your following GSZ are totally dead, unless you can bounce him with Karakas... AND the pros of GSZ+Teeg are more than the cons, so it's well worth playing. It’s a Captain Obvious debate.

Scapeshift was just a suggestion about the topic of the moment, the Depths+Stage combo.

The combo itself is very interesting and deserves testing. We are working on it in different environments, Maverick, Junk, 43 Lands just to mention the main existing decks, plus many other new dedicated builds. In this thread, I’m talking about the best application of the combo in Maverick and hence its pros and cons.

Only time and field data will give the final answer; at the moment I can say that the combo is strong and seems to actually improve some of the intrinsic weaknesses of this deck.

Probably I wasn’t clear enough. To answer your point I don’t “fear” Terminus, I just noticed that it is handled better with the combo. Moreover, I’m not looking for a specific answer to a specific treat at all; my goal is wide-testing the application of the Depths+Stage combo in the meta.

[Pans-Advocate]

Took Maverick to a Legacy weekly and sacked my way to 5-0 through some bad matchups.

R1 I play against Aluren combo, he gets me game 1 with Therapy naming Swords -> Rector to find Aluren and win. Game 2 he walks into Bojuka Bog to fizzle his Rector trigger. Game 3 I play turn 2 Teeg, he bounces and Therapys it, I rip my boarded copy (was definitely dead without it) and win by continuing the run goods with Ooze and Jitte.

R2 I play against GW Enchantress and he finds one Enchantress in two games so I win. We play a third game because I'm curious about how the matchup plays when his deck actually does something. I end up winning in a pretty epic fashion ... He locks me out easily but I have Teeg out so he can't play Sigil of the Empty Throne. He ends up drawing so many cards before casting Emrakul that he can't play any more spells after I set up Maze + Sigarda to blank his win con (I had Library and Knight going for a few turns so it was easy to set up) and he dies to inevitably decking while being completely unable to do anything relevant.

R3 I play against RUG Delver and both decks to more or less what they're supposed to, but I find Ooze, Safekeeper, and Scryb Ranger and he can't beat those cards when they're all on the field. In game 2 my beatdowns are bigger than his and he makes a decision to go on the man plan and fetch a Trop and then dies with 3 Bolts on hand and me at 7 life.

R4 I offer the draw into top 8 but we're both locked anyway so he decides to play it out. He's on Dragon Stompy and turn 1 Blood Moons me but I rip a Forest on my second draw step, Zenith for Hierarch, and am able to activate a Jitte before he gets an Arc-Slogger down and ruins everything I have except the Knight with the Jitte on it, which ends up killing him. Game 2 he mulls to basically nothing.

Top 8 I get paired against MUD and his City -> City -> Lodestone draw dies to my Noble -> Thalia -> Knight -> Swords draw. Game 2 he mulls to nothing.

We split top 4 (R3 and R4 guy both 4-1'd with me as their only loss) and I count myself lucky.

[Justin]

@Asthereal: I said “GSZ has bad synergy with Thalia and Teeg too”, I didn’t say that it works as badly as Scapeshift/Natural Order with Teeg and Thalia. You can’t play GSZ with Teeg in play as you can’t play Scapeshift, while Thalia just slows it down. That’s what I meant. Anyway, I didn’t suggest Scapeshift as a mainstream plan but just as sideboard card for matchups where you likely (could) need to recover a compromised situation, i.e. after a Terminus or under a Punishing Fire Lock - situations where the standard build of the deck is quite weak.

Regarding the lack of protections of Marit Lage, this deck is well suited with maindeck MoR and Sylvan Safekeeper against StP (not considering that StP is a +20 life for your race), and the token is indestructible to black removals. Add land tutoring for the combo and Wastelands for opposing Karakas, Maze of Ith (and Wastelands on your combo pieces) and you have one of the best environments for the new combo.

The list I’m testing, for reference:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I have serious doubts as to whether or not Dark Depths improves Maverick, but it does sound fun to test anyway. Looking at your list, I think that you definitely need to run four Mom and KotR. These are core cards in nearly any Maverick build, but especially in a Dark Depths version. Mom is needed to help protect your combo, while Knight finds the lands that you need.

I don't think there's enough room for a Stoneforge package and Dark Depths in the same deck. My advice would be to cut the four SFMs and the Swords of X and Y. Just run two Jitte's maindeck as your equipment. This opens up five slots and allows you to run a full set of Mom and Knight, while playing more spells that help you find and protect your combo.

The biggest problem with Depths/Stage in this deck is the opponent's Wasteland. You only have one copy of each and don't have a way to get anything out of the graveyard once you've lost it. Too bad that Phyrexian Revoker doesn't work more like Pithing Needle and be able to turn off the non-mana abilities of lands such as Wasteland and Karakas.

[ironclad8690]

Tournament Report: Knightware Inc

Took the ol' Mav to the Knightware tournament today, and didn't do so well but I'll make a tourney report anyways.

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Cavern Of Souls
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother Of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Sigarda Host of Herons

4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Choke
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sword Of Light And Shadow
1 Rest In Peace
1 Krosan Grip

Round 1: Vs Death & Taxes

Game 1: I keep a hand that seems fine, but he plays a revoker naming hierarch and grinds me out with stoneforges into good equips and me not having answers.

In: Krosan Grip, Revoker, Sword Of Light And Shadow, 2 O Rings
Out: 3 Thalia, 1 Teeg, 1 Sylvan Library

Game 2: Mull to 6, get out early hierarch start again, only to be revoker'ed again, eventually he is able to connect with a jitte on a serra avenger and eat two of my 3 moms, don't find an answer to mirran crusaders, a flickerwisp and serra avenger and he gets me.

0-1

Round 2: Miracle Stoneblade

Game 1: Get an early mom + Teeg, he can't find an answer and is overwhelmed by Thrun, KotR, and scryb ranger

In: Kgrip, Revoker, 2 Choke, 2 Oblivion Ring, Elspeth
Out: 4 Swords To Plowshares, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Stoneforge

Game 2: He counters a turn two KotR, I go for the turn 3 Choke which resolves and he has no outs. I even ask him if he has Oring or Detention Sphere but he says nope and I take over quickly with a thrun

1-1

Round 3: Hoogland Style Loam

Game 1: He gets an early bob, I don't get an answer, he devastating dreams to kill my board. Not much happens and he gets a knight and wins

In: 2 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Rest In Peace, 2 Oblivion Ring, 1 Elspeth
Out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Ooze

Game 2: I am able to wasteland his lands with a thalia on board that keeps him down long enough for me to get there before he gets control

Game 3: He gets a sylvan library out early, I have no answers, get him to 3 life, he DDs for my board and 2 basic lands, i never recover while he uses sylvan library to stack his Bob draws to never lose life.

1-2

Round 4: Unexpected Results Omniscience

Game 1: He shows and tells into omniscience which makes my knight look pretty stupid and casts Emrakul. GG

Side In: 2 Oblivion Ring, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Canonist
Out: 1 Stoneforge, 2 Jitte, 1 STP

Game 2: I oblivion ring his first show and telled emrakul, get him to 3 and he gets a topdecked show and tell into omni emrakul.

1-3

Round 5: Miracles

Game 1: I get the nut cavern into Mom into teeg, get a knight out and wasteland his non basics, he can't close it out.

In: Kgrip, Revoker, 2 Choke, 2 Oblivion Ring, Elspeth
Out: 4 Swords To Plowshares, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Stoneforge

Game 2: Turn 4 Elspeth does work in this match. He plays an engineered plague on human but thankfully elspeths homies are only soldiers (had to ask head judge about that one). He never gets an out to elspeth

2-3

Round 6 (final round): Hive Mind

Game 1: Me: I durdle with mom and scooze while he plays grim monolith and turn 3 casts hive mind and pact of the titan

In: 2 Oring, 1 Canonist, 1 revoker, 1 pithing needle (shouldn't have done this but probably made no difference), 1 Kgrip
Out: 4 Swords To Plowshares, 2 Umezawa's Jitte

Game 2: I manage to hold down the fort for a little while, get him to 3 but he casts hive mind after clearing the way of thalias and teegs into pact for the win

End record: 2-4

Feelings: I think I will change the sideboard to make it easier. The tutor board is cool but sometimes very awkward, and I found myself having more situational cards than cards to take out. I am not sure if I need sigarda, she sat in my hand most of the time. Thrun was nice but I am thinking of going to more low CC creatures like qasali, maybe another stoneforge and take a jitte out for Batterskull. I am not sure about cradle either. It generates awesome amounts of mana but it sucks when you only have 1 creature or get wrathed, and the fixing from horizon canopy may be worth it instead. Probably should go up to 4 thalias but I don't know. Hive mind is basically unbeatable with this deck if the pilot knows what they are doing.

Constructive criticism on list or sideboarding welcome.

[Morte]

I have serious doubts as to whether or not Dark Depths improves Maverick, but it does sound fun to test anyway. Looking at your list, I think that you definitely need to run four Mom and KotR. These are core cards in nearly any Maverick build, but especially in a Dark Depths version. Mom is needed to help protect your combo, while Knight finds the lands that you need.

I don't think there's enough room for a Stoneforge package and Dark Depths in the same deck. My advice would be to cut the four SFMs and the Swords of X and Y. Just run two Jitte's maindeck as your equipment. This opens up five slots and allows you to run a full set of Mom and Knight, while playing more spells that help you find and protect your combo.

The biggest problem with Depths/Stage in this deck is the opponent's Wasteland. You only have one copy of each and don't have a way to get anything out of the graveyard once you've lost it. Too bad that Phyrexian Revoker doesn't work more like Pithing Needle and be able to turn off the non-mana abilities of lands such as Wasteland and Karakas.

I get your point. Let’s say there are three main approaches to Dark Depths+Thespian’s Stage:

Dedicated deck – see Dark Depths thread in N&D;
Existing deck strongly tweaked to abuse the combo as a main plan – see 43 Lands (very good) and maybe Junk/Maverick (probably not so good) with stuff like Crop Rotation, Scapeshift and so on;
Existing deck with minimum amount of slots to use the combo as a B plan.

I’m testing an experiment of type 3. I looked for a deck with intrinsic support to the combo:

Tutoring: Knight of the Reliquary and Weathered Wayfarer;
Token defense, with Mother of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper (gives protection from Karakas and Maze of Ith too, unlike MoR, and is fed by Weathered Wayfarer), Wasteland itself against opposing Wastelands.

The original build won the Catalan Legue and T8ed the BoM short time ago. It’s quite different from usual GSZ builds but extremely powerful. It has a lot of non trivial synergies, somewhat like D&T, and the card choice has been carefully studied. The Stoneforge Mystic package is one of the main plan of this build – this is the reason why it runs so many evasive creatures (3 Birds of Paradise and 2 Scryb Ranger). The 7 main deck hate bears also work wonderfully with Vials and the rest of the deck. Ask Luis Viciano aka M@verick for more details; I didn’t dare to touch anything of the spell list in the end, I just switched two lands for the combo – the manabase was rock-solid anyway and in my testing I had no problem so far.

The key point is that the combo is just a B plan. You don’t consider it until you have active tutors and protection, and again you keep it as an option but go for it only if it is needed, otherwise you go with the main plan. I was able to profit the combo to win matchups I’d have lost much more than the times Depths was just a dead draw up to now. From this point of view, the comparison with Time Vault+Voltaic Key is pertinent.

Among the lines of play, I suggest to always play Dark Depths first and Thespian’s Stage after you cleared the board from opposing Wastelands.

With this build you can sometimes surprise the opponent by comboing unexpectedly instant speed at EoT: with an active Knight of the Reliquary flash or Vial in a Scryb Ranger, activate twice the Knight, run the combo and win in your turn :wink:

[ironclad8690]

I get your point. Let’s say there are three main approaches to Dark Depths+Thespian’s Stage:

Dedicated deck – see Dark Depths thread in N&D;
Existing deck strongly tweaked to abuse the combo as a main plan – see 43 Lands (very good) and maybe Junk/Maverick (probably not so good) with stuff like Crop Rotation, Scapeshift and so on;
Existing deck with minimum amount of slots to use the combo as a B plan.

I’m testing an experiment of type 3. I looked for a deck with intrinsic support to the combo:

Tutoring: Knight of the Reliquary and Weathered Wayfarer;
Token defense, with Mother of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper (gives protection fromKarakas and Maze of Ith too, unlike MoR, and is fed by Weathered Wayfarer), Wasteland itself against opposing Wastelands.

The original build won the Catalan Legue and T8ed the BoM short time ago. It’s quite different from usual GSZ builds but extremely powerful. It has a lot of non trivial synergies, somewhat like D&T, and the card choice has been carefully studied. The Stoneforge Mystic package is one of the main plan of this build – this is the reason why it runs so many evasive creatures (3 Birds of Paradise and 2 Scryb Ranger). The 7 main deck hate bears are also works wonderfully with Vials and the rest of the deck. Ask Luis Viciano aka M@verick for more details; I didn’t dare to touch anything of the spell list in the end, I just switched two lands for the combo – the manabase was rock-solid anyway and in my testing I had no problem so far.

The key point is that the combo is just a B plan. You don’t consider it until you have active tutors and protection, and again you keep it as an option but go for it only if it is needed, otherwise you go with the main plan. I was able to profit the combo to win matchups I’d have lost much more than the times Depths was just a dead draw up to now. From this point of view, the comparison with Time Vault+Voltaic Key is pertinent.

Among the lines of play, I suggest to always play Dark Depths first and Thespian’s Stage after you cleared the board from opposing Wastelands.

With this build you can sometimes surprise the opponent by comboing unexpectedly instant speed at EoT: with an active Knight of the Reliquary flash or Vial in a Scryb Ranger, activate twice the Knight, run the combo and win in your turn :wink:

Do you think it would be good to put a Loam somewhere in the 75 just in case the game goes long and you lose the combo? I am not sure if it quite makes the cut but may be worth it.

[ironclad8690]

Won a LGS 3 round vs jund, tezzerator control, and elves. What with how many omniscience decks I played in LA yesterday, I think I might even go up to 3 canonists in the board. Very helpful in many matchups, would've loved it vs hive mind yesterday. I have been playing this deck for 6 months and I feel I am just starting to "get it" finally.

[Morte]

Do you think it would be good to put a Loam somewhere in the 75 just in case the game goes long and you lose the combo? I am not sure if it quite makes the cut but may be worth it.

I wouldn't play Life from the Loam maindeck in this build since it plays Weathered Wayfarer that has a similar effect, outside recovering the combo from Wastelands, Stifle or removal of the token, but is less mana intensive and is generally more in line with the Vial plan of the deck. I'd consider it if I wanted to push the combo above a B plan.

On the other hand, it is definitely a good sideboard option especially against matchups where a board sweep is likely. Life from the Loam is very synergic in Maverick and especially in a list with Wasteland, Horizon Canopy and the Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage combo. I will test it.

[Lt. Quattro]

Won a LGS 3 round vs jund, tezzerator control, and elves. What with how many omniscience decks I played in LA yesterday, I think I might even go up to 3 canonists in the board. Very helpful in many matchups, would've loved it vs hive mind yesterday. I have been playing this deck for 6 months and I feel I am just starting to "get it" finally.

Welcome to the club brother.

[ironclad8690]

I wouldn't play Life from the Loam maindeck in this build since it plays Weathered Wayfarer that has a similar effect, outside recovering the combo from Wastelands, Stifle or removal of the token, but is less mana intensive and is generally more in line with the Vial plan of the deck. I'd consider it if I wanted to push the combo above a B plan.

On the other hand, it is definitely a good sideboard option especially against matchups where a board sweep is likely. Life from the Loam is very synergic in Maverick and especially in a list with Wasteland, Horizon Canopy and the Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage combo. I will test it.

I see what you mean.

The combo also has to be used patiently as if they have a wasteland untapped, they can disrupt the combo in response to a knight/wayfarer/crop rotation type effect when tutoring for the second land.

I thought about the combo for a little while, and decided to make a small list of top tier decks and how much they cared about the 20/20:

Stoneblade: Has STP, Karakas, Jace to bounce, Lingering Souls to block with, and Wasteland to deal with the combo. You would have to pack a couple safekeepers to try and effectively use this combo vs them.

Jund: Only has wasteland/Liliana -2 to interact when lands/marit on board, hymn to tourach for discard if pieces are in hand. This would be a great match for the combo.

Sneak and show: Will probably combo out faster than you, and emrakul attack trigger renders this combo pretty worthless unless you can somehow get 6 permanents on the board first. If they struggle to find emmy it should be in your favor, but that is the case with regular maverick anyways.

Tempo Thresh: They have stifles and wastelands, and will try to kill your knight/wayfarer at any costs anyways. Not quite as bad as stoneblade for depths, but submerge post board could hurt after comboing.

Storm: This combo has no place in this matchup, better to be bojuka or a hatebear in these slots.

Team America: may have stifle, wasteland, and jace/lili to deal with marit.

Shardless: Jace, Wasteland, hymn, sower of temptation post board (yikes)

Miracle: Terminus, STP, jace, angel tokens to block with.

I know the combo would probably be better against some of the lower tier decks, but after analyzing the matchups it strenghtens and the matchups where a maze of ith (or something to negate jitte counters tower of the magistrate etc) might be more useful I am not so sure I still like the combo. I will definitely do it in the begining because it sounds really fun and will catch people off guard but who knows if it will rise to the top.

[Morte]

Your analysis is entirely correct. That’s why I think the combo should be just a B plan. On the other hand, top tiers have answers against everything (or are just faster than you if they succeed with their plan). I mean the combo doesn’t win by itself in a vacuum, but can be the most efficient strategy in the right situation. You are interacting with opponent’s answers anyway – Sylvan Safekeeper and Mother of Runes against spot removal, Mother of Runes against blockers, Wastelands against land hate, Phyrexian Revoker against plainswalkers, Gaddock Teeg against miracles and so on – investing in the combo is a choice depending on the board position.

I second your position about not sacrificing other tools of the deck for the combo – in fact I took the root to replace two lands, which seems acceptable so far, especially in a Vial build.

Only time will say if the combo is worth the trouble. The main benefit I found in my testing is the actual capability to reverse the game position. I played many games where I was just behind and the combo was a silver bullet to win a game otherwise lost. Don’t forget that opponents too must decide if they want to save an answer for the combo: usually it’s not the right choice, they’re not profiting an answer against your actual position, waiting for a threat that could never come.

[Fatal]

Liliana/Jace is useless mostly vs combo since you just put it eot - it only matters if they have blockers

[angel882]

Hi, I'm going to play old school Maverick tonight with this list

Creature [27]
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact [7]
4 Æther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Land [22]
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Batterskull
15 cards

How do you sideboard with this list??

[ironclad8690]

Liliana/Jace is useless mostly vs combo since you just put it eot - it only matters if they have blockers

That's a good point. And wasteland isn't actually as much of a problem as I thought, you can mostly play around it and force them to use their wastelands on it rather than your savannah for example (been doing some test rounds in cockatrice)


Hi, I'm going to play old school Maverick tonight with this list

Creature [27]
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instant [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact [7]
4 Æther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Land [22]
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
60 cards

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Batterskull
15 cards

How do you sideboard with this list??

Rest in Peace and Surgical Extractions against GY decks/keep off threshold in storm/tempo, Mindbreak Traps and Gaddock Teeg for storm, and Oblivion Rings for randomness, planeswalkers, and Show and Tell variants. I imagine that, running four of the card, he was hoping to mulligan into it against Show and Tell like you might with Leyline of the Void against a dredge deck. (mostly a quote from this (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-bazaaro-world-2013/) article by Caleb Durward regarding luis viciano's version). I imagine with yours: Gaddock does in vs storm and control, surgicals are static GY hate, ethersworns vs storm, elves, show and tell, enchantress; o rings vs planeswalkers and show and tell and random jank, chokes vs control for the long game, rest in peace for gy hate/vs tarmogoyfs, batterskull is universally pretty good but only really weak to combo.

[Koby]

Again, my reservation about Thespian's Stage / Dark Depths "combo" is that it eats up two land slots that don't produce :g: or :w: and have little to zero utility on their own accord.

It does not benefit Maverick to draw these cards at odd moments in the game when another land would be needed. Thus, they can't replace the ~20 core lands in the deck; and instead take up the spell slots. How would those who are advocating for this "combo" fit it into the Maverick shell without detriment to the consistency and quality of its spells/land mix?

[angel882]

That's a good point. And wasteland isn't actually as much of a problem as I thought, you can mostly play around it and force them to use their wastelands on it rather than your savannah for example (been doing some test rounds in cockatrice)



Rest in Peace and Surgical Extractions against GY decks/keep off threshold in storm/tempo, Mindbreak Traps and Gaddock Teeg for storm, and Oblivion Rings for randomness, planeswalkers, and Show and Tell variants. I imagine that, running four of the card, he was hoping to mulligan into it against Show and Tell like you might with Leyline of the Void against a dredge deck. (mostly a quote from this (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-bazaaro-world-2013/) article by Caleb Durward regarding luis viciano's version). I imagine with yours: Gaddock does in vs storm and control, surgicals are static GY hate, ethersworns vs storm, elves, show and tell, enchantress; o rings vs planeswalkers and show and tell and random jank, chokes vs control for the long game, rest in peace for gy hate/vs tarmogoyfs, batterskull is universally pretty good but only really weak to combo.

Thanks for your answer. Played 3 rounds tonight in a locall tournament (11 players) first time with this real maverick and ended up 2-1. Last round I lost to Goblins because I should have mulliganed to five (six was too slow). Oh and also because my opp draws seven goblins with two Ringleaders :P He had only one mountain in play and I had his Vials locked with my Revoker but somehow he managed to win!!! Batterskull was great in my meta and I'm really considering adding it to my MD because I sided it in every game.

[ironclad8690]

Thanks for your answer. Played 3 rounds tonight in a locall tournament (11 players) first time with this real maverick and ended up 2-1. Last round I lost to Goblins because I should have mulliganed to five (six was too slow). Oh and also because my opp draws seven goblins with two Ringleaders :P He had only one mountain in play and I had his Vials locked with my Revoker but somehow he managed to win!!! Batterskull was great in my meta and I'm really considering adding it to my MD because I sided it in every game.

Ah, yeah sword of fire ice/jitte are super crucial as early as possible vs gobs and sometimes that isn't even enough. It is a pretty close matchup in many cases, and can all come down to luck. I personally have used dueling grounds and enlightened tutor in my sb for that match, but I play the GSZ version and I also run into affinity/elves and other swam decks often in my meta.


Again, my reservation about Thespian's Stage / Dark Depths "combo" is that it eats up two land slots that don't produce :g: or :w: and have little to zero utility on their own accord.

It does not benefit Maverick to draw these cards at odd moments in the game when another land would be needed. Thus, they can't replace the ~20 core lands in the deck; and instead take up the spell slots. How would those who are advocating for this "combo" fit it into the Maverick shell without detriment to the consistency and quality of its spells/land mix?

From a competitive standpoint, using it as a sideboard plan similar to the natural order/progenitus sideboards of old seems the best application to me, or as morte mentioned, the vial build and wayfarers ala m@verick. I will probably test morte's list a bit because it seems like the most consistent maindeck verison of the stage depths style maverick, whereas I will sideboard it in the GSZ version; most likely over path to exile or gutshot (matches where you really want the combo are matches where you would typically want more removal, ie jund/midrange fair/aggro.dec). Those slots seem fine to replace with 1 stage and 1 depths, at least to test with in the beginning, then once test data is obtained decide whether to axe it, keep it in sideboard, or migrate to main if it performs very well (though this will largely be a meta call like maindeck linvala used to be).

[Morte]

I totally agree with you.

Vial list has lower color requirements than GSZ build and doesn’t want to draw lands when it has an active Weathered Wayfarer. Also in my testing I had no issues with the manabase after replacing two lands with the combo. I wouldn’t increase the land count anyway, so I feel no reason to touch the spell list. You almost always have G/W sources anyway, therefore Thespian’s Stage with its generic mana works more or less as well as any other land, and occasionally its ability is quite useful. Only Dark Depths is dead on its own.


It does not benefit Maverick to draw these cards at odd moments in the game when another land would be needed.

That’s not likely. With Vial list, if the opening hand is a keep it means that it has adequate mana on its own. I don’t know if you tested the list: it tends to play with a very low land count, once you have an active Weathered Wayfarer or Knight of the Reliquary you can fix immediately your mana, and it’s rare that is needed; then you mostly fetch for Gaea’s Cradle, Wastelands or Horizon Canopy.

I’m normally pleased to draw a piece of the combo “at odd moments in the game”. It means that with a single Weathered Wayfarer or Knight of the Reliquary activation I have the option to go for a power move, while if it is better to proceed with the standard plan, it is just an irrelevant draw as another extra land.

[Barook]

I've started playing the M@verick list from BoM yesterday since it catched my interested and I'm probably building it when I'm buying in at MTGO. It's somewhat similiar to D&T, but overall less expensive since paying about 300 bucks for a playset of Ports is downright retarded.

My run so far wasn't bad, but I would like to know why there was no Batterskull included in his 75? Because the deck is tight on mana? It feels kinda weird to play SFM without having an option to fetch it. And the equipment package feels somewhat slow.

[Sansian]

I could consider using one if you had lots of agro around you, but otherwise the deck doesn't really need a Batterskull. You have first strikers and fliers to carry equipment while you waste out your opponent (using cradle and vial to make up for the loss of land drops.)

[.Ix]

I’m normally pleased to draw a piece of the combo “at odd moments in the game”. It means that with a single Weathered Wayfarer or Knight of the Reliquary activation I have the option to go for a power move, while if it is better to proceed with the standard plan, it is just an irrelevant draw as another extra land.

I feel the "dead card" factor of the combo is being overstated around here. Drawing one half of the combo is absolutely fine. Casually tutoring for the other is extremely easy in a deck with 4 Knights (and Wayfarers). Drawing both is a LOT worse, though, but having the option to put out a 20/20 EOT is absolutely worth it.

[Justin]

Again, my reservation about Thespian's Stage / Dark Depths "combo" is that it eats up two land slots that don't produce :g: or :w: and have little to zero utility on their own accord.

It does not benefit Maverick to draw these cards at odd moments in the game when another land would be needed. Thus, they can't replace the ~20 core lands in the deck; and instead take up the spell slots. How would those who are advocating for this "combo" fit it into the Maverick shell without detriment to the consistency and quality of its spells/land mix?


Dark Depths needs to replace a spell, not a land, because you can't tap it for mana. Stage replaces a land, but it does have some utility without Depths. Stage can copy a Canopy, Maze, Wasteland, or even a Savannah if you need it. Still, it's slow and only useful after the midgame and could color screw you early on occasion.

Marit Lage seems good against other midrange "fair" decks, such as the mirror or Jund. It's an "oops, I win" situation if you pull it off and have a way to protect it. It can break those long stalemate games.

[kai_nsane]

Hey Guys,

i mostly play the straight GW Zenith Maverick or Dark Maverick (With some Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize..). Is the the Dark Depths+Thespian's Stage combo ? Just swap a Spell and one land with the combo pieces, or its to clunky without Wayfarers or Crop Rotation?

Sometimes I think to switch from the normal Mav to the Vial Maverick. Where are the tro pros and cons of Vial Maverick to Zenith Maverick?

[Morte]

Vial version - Pros:


Greater card advantage than GSZ build (Wayfarer, SFM, stronger equipment plan)
Faster (Vial, lower curve, more tutors for Cradle)
More resilient to counters (Vial)
More adaptive to opponent's plan: full equipment options from SFM
More adaptive to opponent's plan: better land tutoring engine
Broader hate bears pool and anti-combo options (no need to maximize green creatures)
Instant speed hate bears shenanigans (Vial)
More evasive (flying) creatures (mainly to guarantee connection with SoFaI and SoLaS)
Less mana intensive (Vial)

Vial version - Cons:


Vial is not good in multiples and a bad draw mid-lategame
Less consistent (Vial, lack of GSZ)
Lack of GSZ and 1of tools (Dryad Arbor, single Teeg etc.)
Less beaters, more relying on lock pieces and equiments than aggro plan
More tricky to play at best

GSZ version - Pros:


Greater card quality and deck consistency (GSZ)
Efficient 1of green tool package (Arbor, Teeg, Ooze, Thrun etc.)
More beaters, 8x KoR, stronger aggro plan
Dark splash easily available (DRS, AD, discard etc.)
Most popular build - the majority of players consider GSZ build better

GSZ version - Cons:


Slower, despite 8x turn one mana accelerators Vial build is faster
Less card advantage, especially in topdeck mode
More vulnerable to counters
More mana intensive
Most popular build - more straightforward, good players know perfectly how it works and how to play against it

I didn't test Dark Depths+Thespian’s Stage combo in a "standard" GSZ build without extra land tutors, it doesn't look very good on paper. What I can say is that from the combo point of view Vial build ala M@verick is more suitable, because:


Only two slots devoted to the combo is robust enough (Wayfarer + KotR)
Additional land tutoring makes easier finding Wastelands against opposing Karakas/Maze of Ith
Maindeck MoR AND Sylvan Safekeeper provide extra protection for the token (as well, occasionally, as the Swords)

[kai_nsane]

Thanks Morte for the explanations. I also think, that the combo fits better in the vial build.
I think the vial build is more difficult to play, but when you master it a little bit stronger than the Zenith build.

What do you think, gainst which MU's the Vial build is better than the zenith build? And against which is the zenith build better?

[Barook]

The more I test the Vial build, the more I like it.

What are your thoughts on Mindbreak Trap vs. Canonist? While Trap can prevent T0/T1 loses against Storm/Belcher decks, it seems quite narrow.

I'm also interested in the match-ups of the Vial build against T1 decks.

[Water_Wizard]

The more I test the Vial build, the more I like it.

What are your thoughts on Mindbreak Trap vs. Canonist? While Trap can prevent T0/T1 loses against Storm/Belcher decks, it seems quite narrow.

I'm also interested in the match-ups of the Vial build against T1 decks.

I'm running Canonist over Trap. Canonist is better against Elves and OmniClash, which I expect to see more often than Belcher/Storm.

[Roland_Deschain]

Ok everybody's waiting what M@verick think's about the Depths+Stage in vial buildings (if he wanna share with us gsz buildings i will not complain)

[Roland_Deschain]

Had anyone of you guys tested Worship on Maverick?
I guess it`s good against a lot of things...
Or i just talk shit?

[Barook]

I'm currently running the following SB for the Vial build:

3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Surgical Extraction

I don't know why, but it feels somehow like the SB lacks something. Right now, I'm thinking about going the D&T route and adding 2 Enlightened Tutor to the SB, probably going -1 O-Ring, -1 Canonist. That should still increase the chance of drawing the hate cards I want. RIP, Choke and Revoker would definitely benefit from it.

Thoughts?

[from Cairo]

Thoughts?

I jammed a few games this week w/ M@verick's main against: UW Miracles (w/ Legends), Jund, Deathrite Ale, ANT, and Reanimator. The deck is super powerful and I'm really liking the main. The sideboard, particularly the pile of Oblivion Rings, felt weak. I respect Oblivion Ring for it's application against Show and Tell, but most of those decks have adopted Stifle or Trickbind. I agree Ethersworn Canonist feels tighter.

This is the Sideboard that I've been tuning:

2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Crop Rotation
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Disenchant
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

The Jotuns and Smiters probably look weird/bad, but I've been seeing a lot of Engineered Plague floating around out of the GBx decks. Plague on Humans is pretty gross against the Vial version, this gives us some bodies to bring in, that can hold us down between getting Disenchant or Oring down on the Plague. Jotun can shrink their Goyfs and Smiter can hit the battlefield off Hymn/Lili.

[lordofthepit]

I just tried the Vial build with a friend. This is hands down the best Gaddock Teeg deck in the format.

[zulander]

Is there a Junk Vial version?

[lordofthepit]

Is there a Junk Vial version?

Immediately after GSZ got printed, some SCG grinders made a G/W "Green and Taxes" deck that evolved from Death and Taxes and obviously bears some similarity to Vial Maverick. A few weeks later, someone made a "Junk and Taxes". I'd start there for ideas.

[angel882]

I just tried the Vial build with a friend. This is hands down the best Gaddock Teeg deck in the format.

I love Sylvan Safekeeper. It makes hatebears so much better.

[ivanpei]

I respect the vial build, it has many advantages. Right now I'm playing the GSZ list with heavy combo. Here's my list:

4 Noble Heirarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 KOTR
2 Pridemage
2 Ooze
4 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeq

2 Jitte
4 GSZ
2 Crop Rotation
4 STP
2 Sylvan Library

2 Dark Depths (So good, I added one more to increase chances of drawing either 1 of either Dark Depths of Thespian's Stage)
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savanna
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas

As you can see it's a "normal" Mav deck with alot of the 1-offs trimmed. It functions and plays like a normal Maverick deck but has the extra punch in the mid game during turns 4-5. I tried wayfarer but I didn't really like it in this list. I usually drop Noble of Mom early rather than wayfarer. The card also is a tempo sink because it doesn't do anything in the first few turns. The wasteland into wasteland thing doesn't always work and is quite situational. Wayfarer is also a terrible, terrible mid/late game topdeck.

On to the combo effects. After quite a while of testing I've found the combo very worth running, especially if playing a 2 Crop/ 2 DD/ 3 TS split. The chances of drawing into the combo naturally without a Knight activation is quite high. I've won games against Miracles by EOT Merit-Laging them. Also with 4 GSZ, I'm pretty much playing 8 KOTRs. I like having more components because having a component on the table allows me to be faster by a turn and that makes all the difference.

Some may say it's win more because Knight on table= GG. This may be so in the past. But nowadays, with Deathrites everywhere and Rip-Helm decks, thats not the case anymore. I've had perma shrunk Knights not do anything. Also Knights are not evasive so I get into staring matches against Mother of runes or chump blockers very often. The combo is really really good and provides extremely important reach. It's back to Knight on table= GG.

Crop rotations are also surprisingly versatile. When no components are drawn, it's most effective as wastelands 5 & 6, especially against combo. Thalia + Wasteland + Crop rotation can really give combo a hard time. Finding Karakas and SB Bojuka Bog is a plus too.

So far I'm pretty happy with this list, give it a try!

[Barook]

What are your thoughts on Sylvan Safekeeper in the Vial build?

I found it somewhat underwhelming so far since I'm often tight on mana and

a) can't really afford to sac lands or
b) it does pretty much nothing since I've already locked the board/have Mom in play.

Sure, stuff like vialing it in response to removal is tech as a suprise answer or when it's online with Wayfarer, but in most situations, I would rather have a Mom.

I'm currently thinking about

-2 Safekeeper
+1 Mom
+1 Batterskull or a 3rd Scryb Ranger or a 4th KotR

Thoughts?

[angel882]

What are your thoughts on Sylvan Safekeeper in the Vial build?

I found it somewhat underwhelming so far since I'm often tight on mana and

a) can't really afford to sac lands or
b) it does pretty much nothing since I've already locked the board/have Mom in play.

Sure, stuff like vialing it in response to removal is tech as a suprise answer or when it's online with Wayfarer, but in most situations, I would rather have a Mom.

I'm currently thinking about

-2 Safekeeper
+1 Mom
+1 Batterskull or a third Scryb Ranger

Thoughts?

Hi, last tournament I was playing Vial Maverick and for me Safekeeper was amazing. There were situations where I had Safekeeper and summoning sickness Mom on the table and I need to protect my Knight or my opp was playing removal spell to respond my Mom activation.

I forget to say that Batterskull was also amazing and boarded it in every match I played. So that's why I'm considering to add it to my MD especially cause we are playing 4 Mystic.

[Barook]

Hi, last tournament I was playing Vial Maverick and for me Safekeeper was amazing. There were situations where I had Safekeeper and summoning sickness Mom on the table and I need to protect my Knight or my opp was playing removal spell to respond my Mom activation.

I forget to say that Batterskull was also amazing and boarded it in every match I played. So that's why I'm considering to add it to my MD especially cause we are playing 4 Mystic.
For me so far, it was the other way round. There was hardly a time where I wished that my Safekeeper wasn't a Mom instead. I'm going to try out +1 Mom, +1 Batterskull, -2 Safekeeper for now.

On a different note:
I love Scryb Ranger - it just single-handedly won me a game against a Wasteland lock with Trinisphere to keep me at 3 mana to rebuild my board after a WoG. That game was pretty hilarious.

[Morte]

I'm going to try out +1 Mom, +1 Batterskull, -2 Safekeeper for now

It’s a huge change. Sylvan Safekeeper is very important for the synergies of the deck. He grants that you can always activate Weathered Wayfarers and you should work fine with few lands thanks to AEther Vials and Wayfarers. Compared to Mother of Runes alone, he gives a higher level of protection to your creatures. No summoning sickness is a great added value. If you don’t start with him, try to vial him in response to a removal to ruin opponent’s plan.

If you want to change the plan that much, you should consider playing Death and Taxes instead. Maybe this is a good place to try a comparison between the lists:

M@verick:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Typical Death and Taxes:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Judge's Familiar
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

They have a lot in common:

Stoneforge Mystic + equipments (N.B. Batterskull instead of Swords)
Mother of Runes
Thalia
Phyrexian Revoker
Swords to Plowshares
Aether Vial
Wasteland
Horizon Canopy

Let’s analyze the differences.

Lands:
D&T plays Rishadan Port, 4xKarakas and a lot of basics.
M@verick has 2 basics only but can support the land toolbox: 1xKarakas, Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith, maybe other stuff like Bojuka Bog or soon Thespian’s Stage + Dark Depths.

Creatures:
D&T: Serra Avenger, Judge's Familiar (evasion), Mangara of Corondor (lock combo), Flickerwisp (D&T shenanigans), maybe Mirran Crusader (finisher, blocker)
M@verick: Gaddock Teeg (hate), Weathered Wayfarer (card advantage, land shenanigans), Knight of the Reliquary (finisher land shenanigans), Sylvan Safekeeper (protection, Wayfarer activation), Birds of Paradise (mana, evasion), Scryb Ranger (mana, evasion, blue creature hoser, untap shenanigans)

Equipments:
D&T: Batterskull (finisher, blocker, life gain)
M@verick: Swords (flexible color protection, flexible effect toolbox)

D&T is slower and more oriented to assemble a hard lock in the midgame. Both decks have early disruption (Thalia, Revocker), but M@verick has the huge advantage of access to the king of hate bears Gaddock Teeg, in a totally asymmetric way since it has absolutely no drawback. From midgame+ D&T has more powerful defensive tools (Mangare, Flickerwisp) while M@verick has better aggression and is definitely faster with evasive creatures+sword or KotR as a finisher.

I prefer M@verick for the playstile and have not enough data to compare the matchups of the two decks. It would be interesting information.

[Zombie]

Worth noting that D&T often uses the Avengers - especially when equipped - not so much as evasive beatdown as just a way to wall up the air while it assembles it's assorted lock pieces.

[Barook]

@Morte: I considered playing D&T before, but I don't see the point of wasting 300$ for Ports since they're expensive as hell on MTGO.

Safekeeper and Wayfarer almost never come up, simpy due to running 2 and 3 copies without tutoring.

Sure, you have some points, but during playtesting, they didn't up often enough for to be relevant.

I'm happy with the changes so far.

I'm more interested in boarding strategies vs various popular decks. What do you normally bring in and, even more important, what do you take out?

Edit: Also, how does the Vial version deal with heavy discard? Maybe I was just extremely unlucky, but I got shat on by discard heavy decks like Junk.

[torthek]

Not to mention g/b/x loves to blow up weapons as well...

[door]

I respect the vial build, it has many advantages. Right now I'm playing the GSZ list with heavy combo. Here's my list:

Since you heavily rely on combo, I suggest adding Sylvan Safekeeper. He protects Marite Liege faster than Mother and protects it from Karakas. Moreover you play GSZ and can find him when you need.

2 Guys, who play M@verick's list: yes, it's awesome, but sucks to Jund. What's your plan? Do you feel that RIP is enough? Do you feel you need an enlightened tutor for it? What do you think about Leyline of Sanctity? It stops Liliana and their targeting discard, plus they work against storm and random burn, which is hard to beat sometimes.

[door]

no answers, a bad sign...

[Lt. Quattro]

Since you heavily rely on combo, I suggest adding Sylvan Safekeeper. He protects Marite Liege faster than Mother and protects it from Karakas. Moreover you play GSZ and can find him when you need.

2 Guys, who play M@verick's list: yes, it's awesome, but sucks to Jund. What's your plan? Do you feel that RIP is enough? Do you feel you need an enlightened tutor for it? What do you think about Leyline of Sanctity? It stops Liliana and their targeting discard, plus they work against storm and random burn, which is hard to beat sometimes.



no answers, a bad sign...

I'm still on the green sun build because I like being able to tutor for a gaddock teeg for when his form of disruption would be back breaking.

Rest in peace is not enough against punishing jund. Abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse answer it while dark confidant, library and bloodbraid all dig for those answers.

Enlightened tutor, a card disadvantage spell, for a mediocre (in this situation) card is bad.

Leyline is not a good card for this deck. We have no combo that instantly wins the game that need protecting, doesn't help against aggro or combo.

[M@verick]

@door
Jund is a really close MU. If they start strong, I think there is nothing we can do. But in normal games skill and playing correctly usually decides.
I faced 4 jund during bazar of moxen, with a total score 2-2, which is not bad. The only card that concerns me is Engineered plague. In fact, I lost one of the rounds agasint that card. The other round I lost was because my opponent started too fast and strong for me, and I couldnt do anything even with good hands.

At begining, I lost a lot versus jund, so I tried playing playset of leyline of sanctity in order to win that MU. But they deceived me for many reasons. Not having them in opening hand is like playing with 4 dead cards in the deck, and they just improve the burn MU, which is already good. Therefore I decided playing rips sb and safekeper main deck. I achieved a nice goal, because I improved jund MU until 45-50%. If you want to increase this percentatge, so play another deck, but there are nonetheless few decks which have high % against jund but combo decks.

Well, you can always play 2 or 3 Wilt-Leaf Liege, who solves the problem of discard, resist lighnings and enineered plague.

[from Cairo]

2 Guys, who play M@verick's list: yes, it's awesome, but sucks to Jund. What's your plan? Do you feel that RIP is enough? Do you feel you need an enlightened tutor for it? What do you think about Leyline of Sanctity? It stops Liliana and their targeting discard, plus they work against storm and random burn, which is hard to beat sometimes.


no answers, a bad sign...

The BGx Decks (Deathrite, Hymn to Torach, Abrupt Decay) decks have really turned me off of playing Death and Taxes and Vial Maverick. I've played similar strategies for several years, but find myself losing consistently to pilots that know how to attack these Aether Vial decks. I've tried various SB options such as those mentioned - Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity, Wilt-Leaf Liege, even branching out to Loxodon Smiter, Jotun Grunt, additional removal Sunlance or Path to Exile, an extra Umezawa's Jitte. If someone comes up with the "siqq tech" to combat these strategies, please do share!

In the meantime I think that these BGx decks do the midrange thing better than the White based ones, the individual power level of each card just seems drastically higher and they are less reliant on the synergies of their team lining up. It's unfortunate, I enjoy playing more complicated creature based decks that utilize playskill, rather than just slamming Bloodbraid Elf and watching some busted 2 drop hit the stack, or better yet Liliana...

[Darkness]

@door
Jund is a really close MU. If they start strong, I think there is nothing we can do. But in normal games skill and playing correctly usually decides.
I faced 4 jund during bazar of moxen, with a total score 2-2, which is not bad. The only card that concerns me is Engineered plague. In fact, I lost one of the rounds agasint that card. The other round I lost was because my opponent started too fast and strong for me, and I couldnt do anything even with good hands.

At begining, I lost a lot versus jund, so I tried playing playset of leyline of sanctity in order to win that MU. But they deceived me for many reasons. Not having them in opening hand is like playing with 4 dead cards in the deck, and they just improve the burn MU, which is already good. Therefore I decided playing rips sb and safekeper main deck. I achieved a nice goal, because I improved jund MU until 45-50%. If you want to increase this percentatge, so play another deck, but there are nonetheless few decks which have high % against jund but combo decks.

Well, you can always play 2 or 3 Wilt-Leaf Liege, who solves the problem of discard, resist lighnings and enineered plague.

Jund/ esp Punishing Jund has a pretty time dealing with a strong board presence and Rest in Peace. This makes their DRS/GOYF/PFire's and possible loam engine dead which forces them to waste Decay's on the RiP instead of your creatures. The downside of this is you lose your interaction with KotR, but if you play with 2 WLL, you should just be able to put through with your dudes.

[Barook]

Has anybody tested the Dark Depths combo in the Vial build yet?

Edit: Since I currently run an ETutor board, it got me thinking: What about Worldly Tutor instead?

WTutor can grab any hatebear instead of just Canonist and Revoker and allows us to run certain hatebears like Pridemage as one-ofs. Plus, you can set up Vial nicely with it.

[Giants1990]

I've been playing the GSZ build for a while and I'm finding I struggle vs Stoneforge Mystic/ Batterskull especially in the Death/ Esperblade builds. I run 2 Scryb Ranger because I always wanted it when I ran just one. I have two Phyrexian Revokers in the board. I was thinking of cutting a Ranger for Ulvenwald Tracker. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[ironclad8690]

I've been playing the GSZ build for a while and I'm finding I struggle vs Stoneforge Mystic/ Batterskull especially in the Death/ Esperblade builds. I run 2 Scryb Ranger because I always wanted it when I ran just one. I have two Phyrexian Revokers in the board. I was thinking of cutting a Ranger for Ulvenwald Tracker. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Try a tower of the magistrate in the side.

[from Cairo]

I've been playing the GSZ build for a while and I'm finding I struggle vs Stoneforge Mystic/ Batterskull especially in the Death/ Esperblade builds. I run 2 Scryb Ranger because I always wanted it when I ran just one. I have two Phyrexian Revokers in the board. I was thinking of cutting a Ranger for Ulvenwald Tracker. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

Scryb Ranger is a boss against combat damage abilities (Batterskull's Lifelink, any dork wearing an Umezawa's Jitte). Block with a Dryad Arbor, bounce it before damage; double Mother of Runes activations, being Pro:Blue it blocks Geist of Saint Traft and Vendilion Clique, while having pseudo Vigilance. Honestly feel it is very powerful in the Esper Deathblade matches.

[ironclad8690]

Congrats to Jack Wang, just won SCG Philly with Maverick!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56773

[mishima_kazuya]

The 1 Scrubland was there because I couldn't find a 3rd Savannah, so cut the Scrubland for a Savannah. I actually lost a game because I had to mulligan a decent hand because the Scrubland did not tap for green mana.


Life from the Loam doesn't fit the game plan anymore, so cut it for the 3rd Thoughtseize in the SB.


I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

[lordofthepit]

The 1 Scrubland was there because I couldn't find a 3rd Savannah, so cut the Scrubland for a Savannah. I actually lost a game because I had to mulligan a decent hand because the Scrubland did not tap for green mana.


Life from the Loam doesn't fit the game plan anymore, so cut it for the 3rd Thoughtseize in the SB.


I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

Yes, please.

As for questions, how did the Stoneforge package treat you (as opposed to just cutting them and running two Jittes)? That seemed a bit surprising to me.

Did you ever wish you fit in some Abrupt Decays or Bobs?

Edit: Also, congrats!

[Lt. Quattro]

The 1 Scrubland was there because I couldn't find a 3rd Savannah, so cut the Scrubland for a Savannah. I actually lost a game because I had to mulligan a decent hand because the Scrubland did not tap for green mana.


Life from the Loam doesn't fit the game plan anymore, so cut it for the 3rd Thoughtseize in the SB.


I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

How did the aven mindcensors perform? Was the disruption they provided relevant?

Have you seen top gun?

[from Cairo]

if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

Congratulations! For what it's worth, I would be interested.

[litenkatt]

Congratulations! For what it's worth, I would be interested.

I'd also be interested

[Megadeus]

I've been playing the GSZ build for a while and I'm finding I struggle vs Stoneforge Mystic/ Batterskull especially in the Death/ Esperblade builds. I run 2 Scryb Ranger because I always wanted it when I ran just one. I have two Phyrexian Revokers in the board. I was thinking of cutting a Ranger for Ulvenwald Tracker. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

run more qasali pridemage.

[Barook]

I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.
Congratulations!

How did the SoFF perform for you? In which match-ups was it releveant, considering BGx decks run Abrupt Decay?

[ironclad8690]

I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

That would be rad!

[ironclad8690]

Another fun factoid: Jack is the first person to win a large American tournament with Maverick since March 2012, in which Adam Cai took down SCG baltimore with his bant splash, elesh norn loyal retainers maverick deck, and max tietze won the SCG invi baltimore with punishing maverick.

[mishima_kazuya]

Round 1: UB Tezzeret
Won the match in three games. My opponent misplayed his Jace activations game 1 and that was enough for me to win the first game.
1-0

Round 2: Punishing RUG Cascade splashing for Deathrite Shaman.
I kept a loose hand of no mana accelerants, Karakas and Dryad Arbor. I led off with Mother of Runes, he bolted it, I had no turn 2 play and then I died to his recurring Punishing Fires.
In game 2 I mulliganed a hand that only had a Scrubland for mana. My 6 cards had lands and a Sylvan Library, so I kept it. After paying 8 life to get some card advantage to undo my mulligan, I spent the rest of the game trying to stabilize. Unfortunately he had 2 Lightning Bolts to finish me off.
1-1

Round 3: Dredge
I kept a loose hand game 1 on the play that was Wasteland, three other lands, 2 Swords to Plowshare and a KoTR. I obviously lost while he dredged into beats.
A combination of Deathrite, Thalia and Scavenging Ooze got me the win on game 2.
He misplayed his Cabal Therapy game 3 and I choked his mana when I played a Thalia on turn 2 to win game 3
2-1

Round 4: UWr RIP Counterbalance
He seemed hesitant to keep his hand and he ended up only playing about three spells in the game (Counterspell, EE, and Jace, TMS). He also misplayed the EE, so it was like he only played 2 spells in the game before dieing.
I punted terribly game 2. My lands were all non-basic when he had a Blood Moon, but I had 2 mana dorks and a Gaddock Teeg in play. Unfortunately, when he Detention Sphere'd my Gaddock Teeg, I played a Garruk Relentless instead of actually using my Qasali Pridemage to free my Gaddock Teeg. A Terminus, Energy Field, and Jace, TMS later, he assembled RIP and Helm for the win.
On the play game 3, I played a turn 2 KoTR while all he had was Top and Counterbalance. A few Wastelands later the match was over.
3-1

Round 5: Midrange artifacts
From what I saw, it looked like he was playing a midrange deck with artifact lands, moxes, Stoneforge Mystics, Trinket Mages, and Tezzerets.
After a 35 minute game 1, involving Scryb Ranger, KoTR and Garruk Relentless tricks I finally won through his multiple Stoneforge Mystics.
He mulliganed game 2 on the play with a one lander and led off with Chrome Mox imprinting Force of Will, Mox Opal, Ancient Den into a play that I don't remember. At the end of his turn 1 he only had 1 card in hand. An Engineered Explosives for 0 to wipe his moxes and a Wasteland to destroy his one land was enough to mana screw him for the rest of the game.
4-1

Round 6: Glimpse of Nature Affinity
He had a fast start, but besides one Ravager they were all vanillia 2/2s and 1/1s. So I had enough time to assemble bigger creatures while he bricked on boom booms.
In game 2, I started with some removal and stabilized with KoTR and Lingering Souls. I believe I got lucky in this match up since he never had a Glimpse of Nature to combo off with.
5-1

Round 7: Junk
A combination of Thalia, Aven Mindcensor and some Wastelands wrecked havoc on his mana base. However his Stoneforge Mystics kept him in the game while I also had to hold off an aggressive draw of a few Goyfs and an opposing KotR, so it took us more than 40 minutes to finish game 1.
Game 2 was strange since he started with two Deathrite Shamans with no lands in the graveyard for them to make mana. He also had a Dark Confidant on the play that I did not have a StP for. I was sensing that I would not be able to win the game trying to maintain card parity since he had an active Dark Confidant. So I ramped up to 7 mana and played both parts of a Lingering Souls (I had a Thalia in play). I aggressively attacked his life total while ignoring his Elspeth that he played later; as a result he eventually had to use his Deathrite Shamans to gain life instead of draining me for two. As a result the game went to time and I won the match.
6-1

Round 8: Reanimator
There were 220 players which was 9 players short of 9 rounds, so X-1's could not safely draw since x-1-1 was not guaranteed a spot in the top 8. (Max Tietze ended up at 9th at 6-1-1).
I was unsure of what he was playing game 1, so I led off with Mother of Runes instead of Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 while being on the play. When he Careful Studied away an Iona, I had two options. Play Deathrite Shaman and hope he doesn't have a reanimation spell or play Thalia and hope he gets choked on mana. I decided to play Deathrite to play around Daze, but then he tapped out for an Exhume and Iona was set on White. In hindsight I should have played the Thalia there since I was not beating a Force of Will no matter what play I made.
In game 2 he Plagued Winded me with Elesh Norn, but I had the Swords to Plowshares for it and another StP for his Sphinx of Steel Wind. He bricked on business while a Dryad Arbor with a Jitte finished him off.
In game 3 I had the nuts of Thoughtseize, Thalia and Deathrite Shaman. The combination of that disruption kept him on the backfoot for the whole game and I won.
7-1

I was second after the end of Round 8, so I would have the advantage of being on the play for most of the top 8.

Quarterfinals: Geist Deathblade
He misplayed a Thoughtseize when he choose to make me discard a Thalia instead of Sylvan Library. The extra cards I got off Sylvan Library was enough for me to grind him out of game 1.
He led off with Relic of Progenitus game 2, but my start of Deathrite Shaman, Thalia and some Wastelands was enough to keep him choked on mana. There was a point in the game where if he peeled a 4th land that was a white source, he could have cast Supreme Verdict to stay in the game. But he missed on drawing the 4th land and died to a giant KotR.

SemiFinals: RUG Delver piloted by Pikula
I led off with a Mother of Runes game 1 on the play and he had to spend his first turn killing my Mother of Runes instead of playing a threat. A combination of his mulligan to 6, Force of Willing something, and spending 2 cards to kill my KotR was enough for me to finally resolve a Jitte after he ran out of gas to finish the game.
In game 2 he got unlucky to draw a bunch of Stiles when I did not draw fetchlands. At a certain point in the game he wanted to Stifle my KotR activations multiple times while he got in for three a turn with Delver of Secrets. However I got lucky to naturally draw the Maze of Ith and he ended the game with three dead Stifles.

Finals: Reanimator
He had a turn 2 Griselbrand on the play and that was game 1.
On game 2, I kept a really good hand of Deathrite, Karakas and KotR. He had a turn 1 Griselbrand via a Reanimate, but my natural drawn Karakas forced him to go to 4 life and my Deathrite Shaman finished the game real fast.
In game 3 he did not have an explosive start, so a combination of disruption bears was enough to end the game and match in my favor.

Notes:
- If I had another Thoughtseize in my SB I could have had a better chance of drawing it and not relying on the 1 Karakas to beat a turn 1 Griselbrand
- In the fair match ups, its important to be aware that Thalia makes your spells cost more, so plan on ramping up mana to cast Green Sun's Zenith, StP, planeswalkers, etc.
- Obviously the Scrubland should be the 3rd Savannah.



How did the aven mindcensors perform? Was the disruption they provided relevant?

Have you seen top gun?

Mindcensors rarely blow out my opponents completely into a game loss. But the disruption was enough to mess up some Stoneforge Mystic triggers and fetchland activations throughout the day. Being a 2/1 flier with flash was pretty sweet, since you can EoT a flier and put an equipment on it when they are not expecting a flier. Sometimes its just fine being a 2/1 flier that gets pumped by exalted triggers during stalemates where both sides have a bunch of creatures(pretty common in Legacy nowadays)



Yes, please.

As for questions, how did the Stoneforge package treat you (as opposed to just cutting them and running two Jittes)? That seemed a bit surprising to me.

Did you ever wish you fit in some Abrupt Decays or Bobs?

Edit: Also, congrats!

I have the two Stoneforge Mystics as extra value creatures in grindy match ups where you need the extra card advantage. Or sometimes you just need to cheat in a Batterskull against say, Affinity or Goblins.
I've been thinking about siding in Decays but I don't think Bob fits the game plan in the same way that Life from the Loam rarely fits the game plan. You want creatures that double up as disruption. Its like playing a Prison deck, but your prison pieces can actually kill your opponent.

[Richard Cheese]

Congrats on the win, and thanks for the writeup. How did you feel about Garruk in the main, and when exactly do you bring in Souls from the board? I saw you brought it in against affinity and Junk, just not sure what the reasoning behind it is.

[TiltingKitty]

I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.

How comfortable did you feel having only one Jitte in the 75? And what's your general game plan for Punishing Fire decks?

[mishima_kazuya]

Congrats on the win, and thanks for the writeup. How did you feel about Garruk in the main, and when exactly do you bring in Souls from the board? I saw you brought it in against affinity and Junk, just not sure what the reasoning behind it is.

Garruk was great when I needed the card advantage, much in the same way Lingering Souls is needed for extra card advantage. I brought it in against Affinity since from the Modern PTQ season, people figured out that Affinity had trouble beating multiple 1/1 Fliers, so obviously the same logic worked versus Legacy Affinity.

There also a few times in fair match ups, where we figured out that assembling Air Elemental ended the game since the opposing deck didn't have a good answer. Like back last Winter/Spring, my playgroup always wanted at least one Lingering Souls in the maindeck of Stoneblade since just playing Air Elemental was enough to win a game. Against my Junk opponent, I payed 7 mana for 4 power in the air which was enough for him to make awkward attacks and Deathrite Shaman activations so that he didn't die from combat damage.

I would play Elspeth over Garruk Relentless, but the 2WW casting cost is pretty hard to manage in a three color Wasteland deck that has a Cavern of Souls in it.


How comfortable did you feel having only one Jitte in the 75? And what's your general game plan for Punishing Fire decks?

I was fine with only have one Jitte in the 75.
I haven't jammed a lot of matches against Punishing Fire decks, but I think I am 50/50 or less than 50/50 against them. If they got to the long game where they had a lot of mana and a Grove of the Burnwillows, it was usually hard to win. If the game went long, but I saved my Wastelands for Grove of the Burnwillows or if I choked them on mana through Thalia/Wasteland/Aven Mindcensor then I was usually advantaged to win.

Also having some Oozes and Deathrite Shamans helps to exile Punishing Fires, but that rarely happens since they either kill those two creatures or you untap and win with those creatures.

[force_of_phil]

Congratulations. I was watching and rooting for you. I was about to turn it off, then the Karakas came down and I knew you would pull it out.

[_erbs_]

I'll take questions and if there is enough interest, I'll write a report.



Congrats on the finish! just several questions and hope you could answer them.

1. Why SoFaF over SoFI or 2nd Jitte or Batterskull in the maindeck. SoFI gives you draw and removal when it connects, as to SoFaF discard and untapping of lands, was the pro green and black the reason for picking it ?

2. Seeing your build taxes people running 2 aven, 3 thalia and 4 wasteland. how effective was it ?. Im a mav player aswell and used to run 3-4 thalia in the main's but now that DRS is printed the taxing route somewhat isn't that strong unless you land all the pieces early on in the game. With my experience in playing that route it seldom happens unless your very lucky in shuffling. And when thalia comes in the late games its just a 2/1 1st striker. I know thalia's main purpose is for combo hate, how relevant is to let say running mirran saders main and putting thalia on the side against combo and RUG.

3. Why is the singleton sylvan library better over running dark confidant's ?

Thanks

[Richard Cheese]

Garruk was great when I needed the card advantage, much in the same way Lingering Souls is needed for extra card advantage. I brought it in against Affinity since from the Modern PTQ season, people figured out that Affinity had trouble beating multiple 1/1 Fliers, so obviously the same logic worked versus Legacy Affinity.

There also a few times in fair match ups, where we figured out that assembling Air Elemental ended the game since the opposing deck didn't have a good answer. Like back last Winter/Spring, my playgroup always wanted at least one Lingering Souls in the maindeck of Stoneblade since just playing Air Elemental was enough to win a game. Against my Junk opponent, I payed 7 mana for 4 power in the air which was enough for him to make awkward attacks and Deathrite Shaman activations so that he didn't die from combat damage.

I would play Elspeth over Garruk Relentless, but the 2WW casting cost is pretty hard to manage in a three color Wasteland deck that has a Cavern of Souls in it.



I was fine with only have one Jitte in the 75.
I haven't jammed a lot of matches against Punishing Fire decks, but I think I am 50/50 or less than 50/50 against them. If they got to the long game where they had a lot of mana and a Grove of the Burnwillows, it was usually hard to win. If the game went long, but I saved my Wastelands for Grove of the Burnwillows or if I choked them on mana through Thalia/Wasteland/Aven Mindcensor then I was usually advantaged to win.

Also having some Oozes and Deathrite Shamans helps to exile Punishing Fires, but that rarely happens since they either kill those two creatures or you untap and win with those creatures.

That's perfect. I was actually wondering specifically about Garruk vs. Elspeth and if it was just a casting cost thing, but wasn't verbose enough with my question, so thanks for being a mind reader.

[Barook]

What's the plan of the Vial build once Jitte doesn't legend rule itself anymore? Just Revokers and SB O-Rings doesn't seem too hot in dealing with it.

Any results on the DD + Stage combo yet? I think it might have its benefits in certain match-ups. E.g. I found it rather frustrating yesterday to lose against 12post between Crop Rotations and especially Pithing Needle (3 useless, early Wastelands) while a fast 20/20 token would have taken down the game rather easily due early WW + protection.

[Moose8583]

Hey I have a Punishing Maverick list that I have been playing for a while and I have been having really good results with it and most of my match-ups against fair decks is really good I almost always win 2-0, 2-1... but I was wondering if there is anything I could add in the main deck to make the combo match up less awful because to win against combo I have to have a nut hand AND they have to pull slow or bad.

Artifact (3)
1xBatterskull
1xSword of Light and Sha..
1xUmezawa's Jitte

Creature (20)
4xBirds of Paradise
1xGaddock Teeg
4xKnight of the Reliquary
3xMother of Runes
2xQasali Pridemage
1xScavenging Ooze
1xScryb Ranger
4xStoneforge Mystic

Enchantment (3)
3xSylvan Library

Instant (7)
3xPunishing Fire
4xSwords to Plowshares

Sorcery (4)
4xGreen Sun's Zenith

Land (23)
1xDryad Arbor
2xForest
3xGrove of the Burnwillo..
1xKarakas
1xMaze of Ith
1xPlains
4xSavannah
1xTaiga
3xWasteland
4xWindswept Heath
2xWooded Foothills

Also I was thinking about dropping a stoneforge, sword, and scryb ranger, for either 1 mother, 2 goyf, or 3 goyf

but anything you guys have to say to make it better would be much appreciated.

[Philipp2293]

No offense, but that's a weak question to ask when you're not even running Thalia.

[Moose8583]

No offense, but that's a weak question to ask when you're not even running Thalia.

Well what would you take out for thalia and how many would you add

[Philipp2293]

From your list I would start cutting the 3rd Library and then shave some Stoneforges. I would, at minimum play 3, if you expect to face combo in your meta I'd run 4.

[mishima_kazuya]

From your list I would start cutting the 3rd Library and then shave some Stoneforges. I would, at minimum play 3, if you expect to face combo in your meta I'd run 4.

If you expect to play a lot of combo, then cut the Punishing Fire package entirely for Thalias.

You can still beat fair decks without Punishing Fire

[ironclad8690]

Hey I have a Punishing Maverick list that I have been playing for a while and I have been having really good results with it and most of my match-ups against fair decks is really good I almost always win 2-0, 2-1... but I was wondering if there is anything I could add in the main deck to make the combo match up less awful because to win against combo I have to have a nut hand AND they have to pull slow or bad.

Artifact (3)
1xBatterskull
1xSword of Light and Sha..
1xUmezawa's Jitte

Creature (20)
4xBirds of Paradise
1xGaddock Teeg
4xKnight of the Reliquary
3xMother of Runes
2xQasali Pridemage
1xScavenging Ooze
1xScryb Ranger
4xStoneforge Mystic

Enchantment (3)
3xSylvan Library

Instant (7)
3xPunishing Fire
4xSwords to Plowshares

Sorcery (4)
4xGreen Sun's Zenith

Land (23)
1xDryad Arbor
2xForest
3xGrove of the Burnwillo..
1xKarakas
1xMaze of Ith
1xPlains
4xSavannah
1xTaiga
3xWasteland
4xWindswept Heath
2xWooded Foothills

Also I was thinking about dropping a stoneforge, sword, and scryb ranger, for either 1 mother, 2 goyf, or 3 goyf

but anything you guys have to say to make it better would be much appreciated.

Which combo decks do you find yourself losing to more often?

[Moose8583]

Which combo decks do you find yourself losing to more often?

Ive gotten 1-2 by storm and 0-2, 0-2 by sneak and show 2-3 times, 1-2 dredge; I think those are the only ones Ive played, well I 2-1 painter.

[ironclad8690]

My suggestion would be to add mindcensor, thalia, or more scavenging oozes/Gaea's cradle. It really is not that bad to play thalia and punishing fire together.

[Goin Aggro]

There is really no way getting around it. You need Thalia to beat combo.

Yes, it's anti-synergistic with Punishing, but Thalia, along with Canonist, are the cards that give most combo builds fits.

If you wanted to keep the Punishing mainboard, I'd have in the SB 4 Thalia, 2 Canonist, and the 4th Wasteland and a way to bring them all in for G2/G3.

With your current build, you're basically scooping G1 to combo, and unless you board in something close to what I've outlined, you're not doing much better G2/G3

[Moose8583]

There is really no way getting around it. You need Thalia to beat combo.

Yes, it's anti-synergistic with Punishing, but Thalia, along with Canonist, are the cards that give most combo builds fits.

If you wanted to keep the Punishing mainboard, I'd have in the SB 4 Thalia, 2 Canonist, and the 4th Wasteland and a way to bring them all in for G2/G3.

With your current build, you're basically scooping G1 to combo, and unless you board in something close to what I've outlined, you're not doing much better G2/G3

Ive added two Thalia in the main considering 3

[ironclad8690]

Remember you can punishing fire your own guys vs dredge to get rid of their bridges from below.

[TiltingKitty]

Ive added two Thalia in the main considering 3

Against the fast combo decks, if you don't have a hate piece in the first ~10 cards off the top, you're as good as done. Two copies might as well be none at all. Most decklists with Thalia in the maindeck, if they don't run four, go down to three at the minimum usually with the fourth in the side.

Don't bother with Goyfs. If you need a Dredge killer, 4x Rest in Peace out of the board is as good as any, and can be boarded in against Storm too (you're cutting a lot of dead cards like the STPs and the entire SFM package anyway).

[Giants1990]

I stumbled hard against BG Elves with Natural Order into Progenitus/ Craterhoof Behemoth this weekend. I had Teeg, Canonist, Thalia and still got crushed. Is this matchup that difficult, or is there something I'm missing?

[Koby]

I stumbled hard against BG Elves with Natural Order into Progenitus/ Craterhoof Behemoth this weekend. I had Teeg, Canonist, Thalia and still got crushed. Is this matchup that difficult, or is there something I'm missing?

Jitte. You need Jitte.

[Giants1990]

Had Jitte but didn't see that or Stoneforge. He was also maindecking Viridian Shaman

[ironclad8690]

Just won a local legacy 10 man tourney with Vial Mav.

List is basically M@verick's but with a couple minor altercations (since there is no combo in my meta).

Round 1: Infect. Stoneforges jittes and swords of fire ice all day 2-0

Round 2: Bug Delver. Phyrexian revoker and wastelock won this round 4-0

Round 3: Death and taxes. Very close, he got mana screwed game 3 and I rode knights and stoneforges to victory 6-1

Round 4: Deathblade. Very interesting build, he had 4 geists main I believe, and got them every game. No confidants. I won game 1 with equips and very grindy 1 damage here one damage there. Games 2 and 3 I lost to removal and jaces. 7-3

Luckily, I was the only undefeated in the final round, and my loss didn't matter due to breakers. I am a little worried about the deathblade match though, I thought it would be easier than esper but it is still very tough when playing a skilled pilot. Deathrite shaman single handedly invalidates much of your strategy by making wastelands awkward and turning knight into a bear.

[ivanpei]

Just won a local legacy 10 man tourney with Vial Mav.

Luckily, I was the only undefeated in the final round, and my loss didn't matter due to breakers. I am a little worried about the deathblade match though, I thought it would be easier than esper but it is still very tough when playing a skilled pilot. Deathrite shaman single handedly invalidates much of your strategy by making wastelands awkward and turning knight into a bear.

Dark Depths-Thespian's Stage. Running just 1 of each is enough to make sure Knight= GG. It's July now guys, time to play the combo.

I'm still convinced of a higher DD-TS count with crop rotations, but that's me since from my testing, the combo is absolutely critical for ambush wins against opponents and against Deathrites. Against Bug/jund, Decay can't touch your Marit Lage and Liliana is unlikely to kill the token because you can Eot activate TS. Also against Miracles, STP/Terminus can deal with the token, but if you time it right, you can catch them off guard. Also removal will very likely be spent early to deal with Mom, Knight, Thalia etc.

[.Ix]

Just sleeved this up. I've been trying Depths/Stage in Junk and it's been pretty good so far. I thought I'd try it in the other obvious deck for the combo. I think the combo is a little better here thanks to Mother of Runes, but I'm not sure if the deck really needs it. Testing it anyway for kicks.

4 Savannah
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Crop Rotation
2 Sylvan Library

[s6sculve]

This is my G/W/b Maverick list. I'm play testing -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
3 Duress
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lingering Souls
3 Oblivion Rings
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

[KobeBryan]

This is my G/W/b Maverick list. I'm play testing -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Horizon Canopy, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard
3 Duress
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lingering Souls
3 Oblivion Rings
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

you really shouldn't be sacrificing mana for the stage/depths combo. It should replace the maze of ith

[s6sculve]

you really shouldn't be sacrificing mana for the stage/depths combo. It should replace the maze of ith

Idk, I don't really want to drop Maze of Ith and I haven't really had problems yet playtesting with this mana base.

[.Ix]

That mana base looks fine. 4 Deathrites go a long way in color fixing, and youre only 4 cards into black. The only issue i can see is having 1 plains and only 1 fetch that can find it.

[s6sculve]

That mana base looks fine. 4 Deathrites go a long way in color fixing, and youre only 4 cards into black. The only issue i can see is having 1 plains and only 1 fetch that can find it.

Yeah, the 3 Misty Rainforest are fillers until I can get 3 more Windswept Heath, when I can spare $150 I plan to change that.

[ivanpei]

From my experience, Maze is totally droppable from the MD. Maze is the "extra leg" that KOTR can fetch. Now that we have a better bomb in DD combo, we don't need maze. Also this deck is the aggressive one in most matchups, so Maze isn't super useful. I've used it more for KOTR tricks rather than nullifying attackers.

[s6sculve]

From my experience, Maze is totally droppable from the MD. Maze is the "extra leg" that KOTR can fetch. Now that we have a better bomb in DD combo, we don't need maze. Also this deck is the aggressive one in most matchups, so Maze isn't super useful. I've used it more for KOTR tricks rather than nullifying attackers.

Idk, I find Maze of Ith extremely useful in fair match ups.

[Barook]

What can we do against MonoU S&T with Emrakul as wincon?

I've only played a few matches so far, but the match-up seems like downright bullshit from our perspective.

[KobeBryan]

What can we do against MonoU S&T with Emrakul as wincon?

I've only played a few matches so far, but the match-up seems like downright bullshit from our perspective.

Very winnable.

Karakas, ethersworn cannonist, teeg. They only have slaughter pact, rushing river, sapphire charm, and wipeaway as removals.

if you can get mom and protect the ethersworn, you can put a decent clock in on them before they find the removals.

[Barook]

Very winnable.

Karakas, ethersworn cannonist, teeg. They only have slaughter pact, rushing river, sapphire charm, and wipeaway as removals.

if you can get mom and protect the ethersworn, you can put a decent clock in on them before they find the removals.

Karakas won't do anything as they'll just hardcast it again with Omniscience and net themselves another turn. I'm still dead.

And in the last game, I did have an active Mom with Teeg on the board, just to get blown out by S&T --> Omniscience --> Cunning Wish --> Eladamri's Call --> Emrakul. :confused: Needless to say, I was not too happy about that.

[slikwilly]

I ran Vial Maverick for the first time at a very small local event this week (only 8 people) going 1-2 in the process. The list I used was M@vericks main -1 Teeg/+1 Scavenging Ooze along with this cobbled together e-tutor board:


1 Nevermore
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Raking Canopy
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Humility
1 Rest in Peace
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblvion Ring
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Enlightened Tutor


Holy hell is this deck grindy! In my legacy career I have long stints running DGA, Nic Fit, and Deathblade (hoped on early, but now two other people at my local are running it which is too many for such a small meta so I have switched away) so I'm quite familiar w/ grinding decks but this may take the cake.

Matchups were as follows:
Punishing Jund 2-0
Basically locked him out of the game w/ wastelands and killing his shamans. I did about 16 damage in game 2 w/ a BoP wielding a SoLaS. Mom and Safekeeper basically keep p-fire at bay as long as you can waste the groves to minimize recursion.

Deathblade 0-2
G1 he goes Shaman -> Bob -> Jace -> Batterskull. Game was over quickly. G2 we went to turns but realistically I wasn't winning. I managed to stall against his Batterskull for a long time, but turns ended with him at 37 (should have been 41, but for some reason he bounced a Batterskull when I was forced to plowshares the germ) and me at 5 (w/ Maze and Crucible on board and canopy and wasteland in the bin). I think I messed up boarding out Scryb Rangers.

Elves 1-2
Game 1 I squeaked out w/ a Scavenging Ooze for exactzies. G2 he wrecked me. G3 I kept a grip w/ E-turor and stoneforge. I was able to tutor and land a Canonist on T2 or 3. He Living Wishes for Viridian Shaman. I get Jitte out. He wishes for another shaman! Arrgghh!

Any suggestions on fixing the board though? My local meta is small, but most of the major decks are represented (Deathblade, ANT, RUG, Dredge, Jund, Elves, Shardless, things I am forgetting).

Also, anyone thought about an Academy Ruins? I know it's off color, but getting equipment back after Abrupt Decay seemed like it's important because otherwise we don't have much of a clock. Was thinking Ruins or Noxious Revival but I like the idea of Ruins because we can tutor it. The problem is that we can't activate w/o an active BoP.

[Barook]

I'm currently running this board:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog

Works for me so far.

Academy Ruins sounds interesting and could be made workable with blue duals, but I think the manabase of Vial Maverick is already choke-full of other nonbasics.

[sdematt]

It's about having a consortium of answers and pressure to limit their options. Cannonist/Teeg/Thalia coming down prior to a Show and Tell limits the number of decision trees the Omni deck can go down.

Recall the combo usually relies on Show and Tell, having Omni/Dream Halls in hand, and then having either Enter the Infinite or Cunning Wish in hand.

So, to beat a Gaddock Teeg (which you should keep it in your hand for the surprise factor), the Omni player must have a Cunning Wish to go around the Teeg to go get either bounce or Call for Emrakul. So, to beat this play, they need to have a Wish in hand, since Enter won't cut it.

To beat a Cannonist prior to a Show and Tell, they need to Wish for removal before going off. If it comes down on the Show and Tell, they can Omni, drawing Wish, Wishing on your turn, and bouncing on their turn then go off.

To beat a Thalia, they can run head first through it, but it makes cantripping into the win a pain, and really restricts the Combo turn as well as the fetching.

Ideally, you want to get them on a path where they have to pay a tax to dig to remove stuff. Playing Mother of Runes/Sylvan Safekeeper will help stop their Cunning Wishes from fetching effective removal for your guys.

TL:DR

Run Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Cannonist, Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Mother of Runes, Safekeeper (and if you're running Black, Therapy/Thoughtseize) as a mix in some proportion. It's not going to be easy, but try to force them down an unfavourable path for them if possible.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Karakas won't do anything as they'll just hardcast it again with Omniscience and net themselves another turn. I'm still dead.

And in the last game, I did have an active Mom with Teeg on the board, just to get blown out by S&T --> Omniscience --> Cunning Wish --> Eladamri's Call --> Emrakul. :confused: Needless to say, I was not too happy about that.

You just need more variety of hate. Thalia, ethersworn and teeg should be sufficient to fight omnitell.

I'm pretty sure maverick has 3-4 thalia maindeck. then there's ethersworn canonist in the sideboard and then Teeg via GSZ.

thats pretty easy to gather hate in my opinion. You will most likely get a thalia in your opening hand, and a gsz in your opening hand.

[Barook]

You just need more variety of hate. Thalia, ethersworn and teeg should be sufficient to fight omnitell.

I'm pretty sure maverick has 3-4 thalia maindeck. then there's ethersworn canonist in the sideboard and then Teeg via GSZ.

thats pretty easy to gather hate in my opinion. You will most likely get a thalia in your opening hand, and a gsz in your opening hand.
I run the Vial variant, so no GSZ, but 3 Teegs, 3 Thalia, 2 Canonists, 2 O-Rings (+2 E-Tutors) for it after boarding.

Their ability to fight through that with relative is ridiculous and frustrating, hence my complaining because I DO run said hate.

[KobeBryan]

I run the Vial variant, so no GSZ, but 3 Teegs, 3 Thalia, 2 Canonists, 2 O-Rings (+2 E-Tutors) for it after boarding.

Their ability to fight through that with relative is ridiculous and frustrating, hence my complaining because I DO run said hate.

They really shouldn't be able to fight through THAT much hate. You are just very very unlucky.

[Barook]

They really shouldn't be able to fight through THAT much hate. You are just very very unlucky.
Nope, this deck is bullshit.

Unless you'll get an O-Ring and they can't find an immediate answer, you will be boned.

I just lost the Legacy Daily on MODO (2-2, after losing match 1 to Tin Fins, winning against BUG Shardless and Dredge). Especially G3 showed how good they can fight through hate:

I had a pretty much perfect lock of Cavern --> Human --> Mom, T2 Canonist, T3 Scryb Ranger (for extra Mom activations) and started the beats afterwards. Hell, I even got a Choke online because.

Well, he jammed down Dream Halls thanks to City of Traitors, cast Enter the Infinite one turn later, played 2 Needles for Mom and SoFI (which could have won me the game if I had drawn it), then played Cunning Wish during my turn to Slaughter Pact Canonist and went off while being at 1 life.

This isn't just bad luck anymore because they'll always find a way to fight through.

[KobeBryan]

Nope, this deck is bullshit.

Unless you'll get an O-Ring and they can't find an immediate answer, you will be boned.

I just lost the Legacy Daily on MODO (2-2, after losing match 1 to Tin Fins, winning against BUG Shardless and Dredge). Especially G3 showed how good they can fight through hate:

I had a pretty much perfect lock of Cavern --> Human --> Mom, T2 Canonist, T3 Scryb Ranger (for extra Mom activations) and started the beats afterwards. Hell, I even got a Choke online because.

Well, he jammed down Dream Halls thanks to City of Traitors, cast Enter the Infinite one turn later, played 2 Needles for Mom and SoFI (which could have won me the game if I had drawn it), then played Cunning Wish during my turn to Slaughter Pact Canonist and went off while being at 1 life.

This isn't just bad luck anymore because they'll always find a way to fight through.

I never said it was easy. Its winnable. The biggest thing is to catch them off guard with a well placed teeg. A qasali pridemage might be good too to destroy enchantments.

The good thing is, no show and tell decks topped this week. You should focus on beating the deathblade matchups and let other players worry about the omnitell.

[Barook]

What is the exact reason the Vial version doesn't run some GSZ? Space issues? Anti-synergy with Teeg?

I could easily see cutting 1 Scryb Ranger and 1 Teeg for 2 GSZ. That would increase the overall consistency of the deck (and with 1 Teeg and such low numbers of GSZ, it should be less of a problem) and would open up the option of running a single Dryad Arbor for accel (which actually works rather nicely with Vial @0 as well). Aside from that, it would make Pridemage a potential SB tutor target, just like Scavening Ooze (although I feel that RiP and Bojuka Bog should be enough). A single DRS with a splash of black might be interesting as well. This is the list I'm thinking about with all the changes in mind:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog

Edit: While Birds are nice sometimes as equip carrier, I'm asking myself if it isn't better to go more into the direction of Jack Wang's Maverick list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56773) with more fetchlands to feed both DRS and KotR. Access to SB Thoughtseizes sound like a nice way to fight combo as well.

[Koby]

What is the exact reason the Vial version doesn't run some GSZ? Space issues? Anti-synergy with Teeg?


They are different engines. There is not enough room to run both.

[KobeBryan]

What is the exact reason the Vial version doesn't run some GSZ? Space issues? Anti-synergy with Teeg?

I could easily see cutting 1 Scryb Ranger and 1 Teeg for 2 GSZ. That would increase the overall consistency of the deck (and with 1 Teeg and such low numbers of GSZ, it should be less of a problem) and would open up the option of running a single Dryad Arbor for accel (which actually works rather nicely with Vial @0 as well). Aside from that, it would make Pridemage a potential SB tutor target, just like Scavening Ooze (although I feel that RiP and Bojuka Bog should be enough). A single DRS with a splash of black might be interesting as well. This is the list I'm thinking about with all the changes in mind:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog

Edit: While Birds are nice sometimes as equip carrier, I'm asking myself if it isn't better to go more into the direction of Jack Wang's Maverick list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56773) with more fetchlands to feed both DRS and KotR. Access to SB Thoughtseizes sound like a nice way to fight combo as well.

you know what the problem with your vial version of maverick is? Its not consistent. You have so many one-ofs which is suited for a GSZ package. If you want to do the vial plan, I suggest you up the creature counts to at least a 3 of.

[door]

Nope, this deck is bullshit.

Unless you'll get an O-Ring and they can't find an immediate answer, you will be boned.

I just lost the Legacy Daily on MODO (2-2, after losing match 1 to Tin Fins, winning against BUG Shardless and Dredge). Especially G3 showed how good they can fight through hate:

I had a pretty much perfect lock of Cavern --> Human --> Mom, T2 Canonist, T3 Scryb Ranger (for extra Mom activations) and started the beats afterwards. Hell, I even got a Choke online because.

Well, he jammed down Dream Halls thanks to City of Traitors, cast Enter the Infinite one turn later, played 2 Needles for Mom and SoFI (which could have won me the game if I had drawn it), then played Cunning Wish during my turn to Slaughter Pact Canonist and went off while being at 1 life.

This isn't just bad luck anymore because they'll always find a way to fight through.

That's why I run 2 Krosan Grip instead of useless Chokes.

[Barook]

That's why I run 2 Krosan Grip instead of useless Chokes.

I fail to see how Krosan Grip is going to help you unless you have 3 mana open and plan to keep them open all the time. I would rather run additional O-Rings in that case.

[Koby]

I fail to see how Krosan Grip is going to help you unless you have 3 mana open and plan to keep them open all the time. I would rather run additional O-Rings in that case.

That's probably the best case; when backed with Thalia or Canonist you're likely going to get the O-Ring to stick.

[DYman]

Splashing blue allowed the option of Rhox War monk, Rafiq of the Many, Geist of Saint Traft, giving more aggro options to the deck. Works with green sun's zenith too ( except for Geist)

What about Elusive Krasis? Has anyone tested its potential as an one-of?

3cmc, searchable with zenith, Unblockable, 0/4 with evolve: blocks well, helps add counters on jitte, gets bigger with each Knight on the table

[Megadeus]

Splashing blue allowed the option of Rhox War monk, Rafiq of the Many, Geist of Saint Traft, giving more aggro options to the deck. Works with green sun's zenith too ( except for Geist)

What about Elusive Krasis? Has anyone tested its potential as an one-of?

3cmc, searchable with zenith, Unblockable, 0/4 with evolve: blocks well, helps add counters on jitte, gets bigger with each Knight on the table

The big problem is that he is terrible on his own. If you play him as a 0/4 and equip a jitte it isnt going to deal damage and will not get counters.

[DYman]

The big problem is that he is terrible on his own. If you play him as a 0/4 and equip a jitte it isnt going to deal damage and will not get counters.

i was gonna reply about how there are so many creatures in the deck to pump it to 1/5, but then i realised Maverick-meta is playing against blue, not aggro. u made a good point.

[Machahiko]

Rather than play the Elusive Krasis, how about Edric, Spymaster of Trest or motherfucking Cold-Eyed Selkie? I don't see how Rhox War Monk would or Geist would be good. I mean - they're good cards but usually all the creatures in Maverick have some utility to them. I think Rafiq is and exception because he can end the game just the moment that he hits the table.

[DYman]

Rather than play the Elusive Krasis, how about Edric, Spymaster of Trest or motherfucking Cold-Eyed Selkie? I don't see how Rhox War Monk would or Geist would be good. I mean - they're good cards but usually all the creatures in Maverick have some utility to them. I think Rafiq is and exception because he can end the game just the moment that he hits the table.

I like both the cards, i'm surprised im not seeing them being mentioned in the main decks more often. Card advantage is nice.

i looked to rhox and krasis for thugs to stall for time while my knights get steroids. i play in a aggro heavy meta and found that thalia was too skinny for the job. i thought lifelink or a charged up jitte would give me time or lasers. also, extra life pays for the library card

[Koby]

RWM is a good choice for aggro heavy metagame, due to the life link + exalted triggers. It has insane synergy with Sylvan Library (life gain). If you're running SFm, also consider Batterskull main.

[s6sculve]

This is how I want to run my list in a few weeks, just missing a few cards and I'll have this list running:

Black Maverick

Creature (25)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Land (23)
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Instant (5)
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay

Artifact (2)
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2x Crop Rotation
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Duress
3x Lingering Souls
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tower of the Magistrate
3x Oblivion Ring


Also I've been play testing the Thespian's Stage/Dark Depths combo, going -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Wasteland, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage to my list doesn't affect my mana base at all and doesn't affect my muligan's really, but does give me a powerful secondary wincon.

[kingsey]

Are crop rotations overkill if I'm running 1 depths and 1 stage ?

[s6sculve]

Are crop rotations overkill if I'm running 1 depths and 1 stage ?

Crop Rotation is against Dredge, and non blue decks.

[AlbyLegacy]

Deck
60 cards, 0 sideboard
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
22 lands


1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Aven Mindcensor
28 creatures


4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
10 spells

Here is the list I'm running.
Let me know what you guys think.
I been play testing it and its been really good.

[s6sculve]

I just finished watching Sunyveil go 4-0 on his stream on Twitch on MTGO Daily, his list is interesting, at no point was Duress bad while I watched his stream.

Sunyveil (4-0)
Legacy Daily #5656510 on 07/04/2013


Main Deck
60 cards

24 lands
1* Bayou
1* Dryad Arbor
1* Forest
2* Horizon Canopy
1* Karakas
1* Marsh Flats
1* Maze of Ith
1* Overgrown Tomb
1* Plains
3* Savannah
1* Scrubland
3* Verdant Catacombs
3* Wasteland
4* Windswept Heath

21 creatures
2* Birds of Paradise
3* Deathrite Shaman
1* Gaddock Teeg
4* Knight of the Reliquary
4* Mother of Runes
2* Qasali Pridemage
1* Scryb Ranger
2* Stoneforge Mystic
2* Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1* Batterskull
4* Duress
4* Green Sun's Zenith
4* Swords to Plowshares
1* Sylvan Library
1* Umezawa's Jitte
15 other spells

Sideboard
2* Abrupt Decay
1* Bojuka Bog
1* Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1* Engineered Plague
2* Enlightened Tutor
2* Ethersworn Canonist
1* Grafdigger's Cage
1* Oblivion Ring
1* Phyrexian Revoker
1* Tormod's Crypt
1* Umezawa's Jitte
1* Zuran Orb

[AlbyLegacy]

I just finished watching Sunyveil go 4-0 on his stream on Twitch on MTGO Daily, his list is interesting, at no point was Duress bad while I watched his stream.

Sunyveil (4-0)
Legacy Daily #5656510 on 07/04/2013


Main Deck
60 cards

24 lands
1* Bayou
1* Dryad Arbor
1* Forest
2* Horizon Canopy
1* Karakas
1* Marsh Flats
1* Maze of Ith
1* Overgrown Tomb
1* Plains
3* Savannah
1* Scrubland
3* Verdant Catacombs
3* Wasteland
4* Windswept Heath

21 creatures
2* Birds of Paradise
3* Deathrite Shaman
1* Gaddock Teeg
4* Knight of the Reliquary
4* Mother of Runes
2* Qasali Pridemage
1* Scryb Ranger
2* Stoneforge Mystic
2* Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1* Batterskull
4* Duress
4* Green Sun's Zenith
4* Swords to Plowshares
1* Sylvan Library
1* Umezawa's Jitte
15 other spells

Sideboard
2* Abrupt Decay
1* Bojuka Bog
1* Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1* Engineered Plague
2* Enlightened Tutor
2* Ethersworn Canonist
1* Grafdigger's Cage
1* Oblivion Ring
1* Phyrexian Revoker
1* Tormod's Crypt
1* Umezawa's Jitte
1* Zuran Orb





Seems pretty good

[Goin Aggro]

I just finished watching Sunyveil go 4-0 on his stream on Twitch on MTGO Daily, his list is interesting, at no point was Duress bad while I watched his stream.

Sunyveil (4-0)
Legacy Daily #5656510 on 07/04/2013


Main Deck
60 cards

24 lands
1* Bayou
1* Dryad Arbor
1* Forest
2* Horizon Canopy
1* Karakas
1* Marsh Flats
1* Maze of Ith
1* Overgrown Tomb
1* Plains
3* Savannah
1* Scrubland
3* Verdant Catacombs
3* Wasteland
4* Windswept Heath

21 creatures
2* Birds of Paradise
3* Deathrite Shaman
1* Gaddock Teeg
4* Knight of the Reliquary
4* Mother of Runes
2* Qasali Pridemage
1* Scryb Ranger
2* Stoneforge Mystic
2* Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1* Batterskull
4* Duress
4* Green Sun's Zenith
4* Swords to Plowshares
1* Sylvan Library
1* Umezawa's Jitte
15 other spells

Sideboard
2* Abrupt Decay
1* Bojuka Bog
1* Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1* Engineered Plague
2* Enlightened Tutor
2* Ethersworn Canonist
1* Grafdigger's Cage
1* Oblivion Ring
1* Phyrexian Revoker
1* Tormod's Crypt
1* Umezawa's Jitte
1* Zuran Orb

Remember to cut the Tomb and to add a 2nd bayou if you want to play it optimally.

[Barook]

What's the reason for Zuran Orb? Burn/Fireblast?

[Sunyveil]

I just finished watching Sunyveil go 4-0 on his stream on Twitch on MTGO Daily, his list is interesting, at no point was Duress bad while I watched his stream.

Sunyveil (4-0)
Legacy Daily #5656510 on 07/04/2013


Main Deck
60 cards

24 lands
1* Bayou
1* Dryad Arbor
1* Forest
2* Horizon Canopy
1* Karakas
1* Marsh Flats
1* Maze of Ith
1* Overgrown Tomb
1* Plains
3* Savannah
1* Scrubland
3* Verdant Catacombs
3* Wasteland
4* Windswept Heath

21 creatures
2* Birds of Paradise
3* Deathrite Shaman
1* Gaddock Teeg
4* Knight of the Reliquary
4* Mother of Runes
2* Qasali Pridemage
1* Scryb Ranger
2* Stoneforge Mystic
2* Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1* Batterskull
4* Duress
4* Green Sun's Zenith
4* Swords to Plowshares
1* Sylvan Library
1* Umezawa's Jitte
15 other spells

Sideboard
2* Abrupt Decay
1* Bojuka Bog
1* Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1* Engineered Plague
2* Enlightened Tutor
2* Ethersworn Canonist
1* Grafdigger's Cage
1* Oblivion Ring
1* Phyrexian Revoker
1* Tormod's Crypt
1* Umezawa's Jitte
1* Zuran Orb

Oh hey, I was just browsing this thread for variants/ideas for the daily tomorrow morning. Keep in mind that Scavenging Ooze is crucial to this deck, I just don't have them online yet (holding out for the M14 release).

I think I'm either going to try the Vial version or a combo version (either NO or Dark Depths) when I get a chance.

Zuran Orb is mostly just for Burn, but I end up siding it in against RUG as well sometimes. Sometimes you just need 4-6 extra life to stabilize against the aggressive decks.

[monovfox]

I played against that list on cockatrice, it was hilarious to see duress cast against me.

[s6sculve]

I played against that list on cockatrice, it was hilarious to see duress cast against me.

In Maverick Duress hits everything we want it to hit, we have STP and Abrupt Decay(Well I do) to Hit their creatues, and our creatures are usually bigger than theirs anyways. Though that being said I play my Duress's in the sideboard, they could be maindeckable though.

[mishima_kazuya]

In Maverick Duress hits everything we want it to hit, we have STP and Abrupt Decay(Well I do) to Hit their creatues, and our creatures are usually bigger than theirs anyways. Though that being said I play my Duress's in the sideboard, they could be maindeckable though.


It appears that we can all agree that some form of discard is needed in the 75 of GWb Maverick. I personally prefer Thoughtseize, but looks like people find Duress to be just as good. So lets go through the pros and cons.

Thoughtseize
Pros:
Hits creatures
-Sneak and Show creatures
-Becomes an option against Elves
Cons:
You lose 2 life
-Life loss is relevant against Storm
-You can't board it in against Burn


Duress
Pros:
Does not cost 2 life.
-You can SB it in against Burn
Cons:
Does not hit creatures
-Duress is a very loose option against Elves
-You can't make Sneak and Show discard a creature (relevance depends on how the game is developing)



As with any Duress/IoK/TS effect, there is some variance involved where the discard is great if you draw it early, but it may be a dud if you draw it late and your opponent does not have targets in their hand. This late game issue is more of an issue against the other fair decks in the formats, so don't automatically assume you are keeping discard in the main against the fair decks in the format.

[Barook]

I'm probably adding black as well with my next paycheck. I like the Vial version, but I've encountered too much fast combo online to rely on hatebears only to win since they can be answered with sweepers rather easily which did cost me quite a few crucial games in the dailies already.

But Thoughtseize vs. Duress:

Duress costs a few cents, Thoughtseize 35$ per copy (MTGO prices). Certainly a thing to keep in mind when you're building your collection.

@Sunyveil: What do you replace for Scavenging Ooze? What do you think about Gaea's Cradle then? I like it in the Vial variant as a retarded mana booster when fetched with KotR and it should work well with Ooze, too.

[mishima_kazuya]

True about price regarding Duress versus Thoughtseize.

ALSO, ALSO, they can't Misdirection Duress, which is very relevant against Show and Tell.

[Megadeus]

Im noit sure if that is VERY relevant. Im not sure they even want Misdirection vs Maverick. Even if you do reveal you are on black I would assume that they would take it out as it is hardly ever a relevant card.

[from Cairo]

True about price regarding Duress versus Thoughtseize.

ALSO, ALSO, they can't Misdirection Duress, which is very relevant against Show and Tell.


Im noit sure if that is VERY relevant. Im not sure they even want Misdirection vs Maverick. Even if you do reveal you are on black I would assume that they would take it out as it is hardly ever a relevant card.

Agreed, if they have Misdirection in the main, it means they are trading their two worst Blue cards for our Thoughtseize and our worst non-land card in hand. It is tempo and depending on the hand could be quite a blow out, but Misdirection is almost certainly not a card they want to keep in post-board.

[Barook]

What's your plan for the mirror and Death & Taxes? Especially with the M14 rule change?

@Sunyveil: Why only 3 Wastelands?

[Fatal]

You can run e.plague, golgari charm or Zealous Persecution those options also work vs Elves - I mostly like Zealous with one E.Plague.

[mishima_kazuya]

Top 4'ed a 39 player tournament on Saturday
Top 8'ed a 51 player tournament on Sunday.

List was mostly the same as my SCG Open list with the following changes:
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Savannah
+1 Marsh Flats

-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Batterskull
+2 Duress

Loses were to:
Mono Blue OmniShow
Esper Stoneblade
TES

[Fatal]

Simple analysis which Maverick construction you should choose vs current meta:

If your meta is mostly TES/ANT/OmniTell/Dredge/Reanimator:
Pick up GW/b splash with Thalia, Deathrite Shamans and Duress (argument why not Thoughtsieze -> Misdirection in OmniTell described upper). Vial build is probably not bad but since you need answer vs Jitte - GSZ and pridemages looks more promising.

Note: I also tried Cabal Therapy it was even better then duress since you can flashback and take multiple cards, but proper naming cards is requirement for get full value so if you didn't played with Therapy before, please playtest on open field.

If your meta is orthogonalized and already react vs combo decks to Shardless BUG, Stoneblade, UW/x Miracles, Deathrite Blade, and also Death & Taxes you should probably pick up GW/r splash with Punishing Fire - its very good vs their long range advantage - Punishing Fire and REB can take out most of their CA sources. GW/r build is also probably better vs Jund.

About SB:
E.Plague is probably good Bullet in actual meta - vs Goblins/Elves/Wizards/Humans/Spirits depends on situation.
Abrupt Decay can be additional removal spells to StP, specially that you can handle Jitte which became public enemy nr 1.
Don't forget about Engineered which can handle Crused Totem, or Tokens.

[AlbyLegacy]

// Deck: maverick (60)
// Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless



this is the list i been running for about a week now.
play tested vs:TES, Merfolk, Goblins, elves, American Delver, Deathblade, Cherrios, Pox, and Stax.

elves was a easy game after sideboard. american delver is good match up if you can keep lava mancer in check. merfolk and goblins no vial no problem otherwise it can be a little hard. TES main board thalia and teeg just win if they dont kill you turn 1. same thing with cheerios if they dont kill you 1st turn thalia can buy you enough time to win along with mindcenser. after sideboard its easy if they dont kill you 1st turn. pox is not a hard one, but i can get you if you dont play it right, becuse they can 2-1 you a lot. sylvan library is game winning here. Stax ooze all day and pridemage with a little thalia and its pretty much game ending. easy match.


i just play G/W for now. i know the benefits of adding red or black, but at this point i dont think its needed unless in a heavy aggro meta ill go punishing maverick.

im not maverick pro just giving info on what i have noticed, would like feed back on my list . thanks.

[allek]

... elves was a easy game after sideboard. ...
im not maverick pro just giving info on what i have noticed, would like feed back on my list . thanks.

How do you board against Elves? Was your opponent a good player? Elves is one of the hardest match-ups for me. Luckily, almost everybody is playing the crappy NO version nowadays which is easier to beat. I could almost never get a win against the faster comboversion that was popular before DRS.

[lordofthepit]

Top 4'ed a 39 player tournament on Saturday
Top 8'ed a 51 player tournament on Sunday.

List was mostly the same as my SCG Open list with the following changes:
-1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+1 Savannah
+1 Marsh Flats

-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Batterskull
+2 Duress

Loses were to:
Mono Blue OmniShow
Esper Stoneblade
TES

I assume you're pretty happy with the newest list?

Congrats!

[AlbyLegacy]

How do you board againt Elves? Was your opponent a good player? Elves is one of the hardest match-ups for me. Luckily, almost everybody is playing the crappy NO version nowadays which is easier to beat. I could almost never get a win against the faster comboversion that was popular before DRS.

Yes he's a good elf player.

The gaddock teeg shuts down green sun, and NO.

But I side in 3 ethersworn canonist. Some times I play 2 phyrexian revokers and name symbiote of heritage druid.

[Koby]

Yes he's a good elf player.

The gaddock teeg shuts down green sun, and NO.

But I side in 3 ethersworn canonist. Some times I play 2 phyrexian revokers and name symbiote of heritage druid.

I would most certainly name Symbiote (even with multiple Revokers), that card is the sole reason Jitte cannot become active and star to decimate Elves' board.

[AlbyLegacy]

I would most certainly name Symbiote (even with multiple Revokers), that card is the sole reason Jitte cannot become active and star to decimate Elves' board.

yea that card is a pain.

[AreYouSerious???]

Sometimes.. When I havent played Maverick for awhile... I tend to forget how FREAKING versatile this deck really is!
wg pride forever!!! Haha, but no in all seriousness its been an uphill battle for Maverick over the past year and to be honest, I am quite worried as to where Maverick will be in the next 3 or 4 years. I love my deck and love what it does, but it just seems as if aggro, midrange (whatever you want to call it) has been steadily declining in its efficiency to deal with board threats and when it comes to legacy, "declining in efficiency" is something you never want to hear for your 75..

[Barook]

Now that the M14 rules are in place, what's your opinion on the Dark Depths + Thespian Stage combo?

[mishima_kazuya]

Maybe in gw. But with everyone splashing a 3rd color, its going make you mulligan more or mana screw

[kingsey]

Now that the M14 rules are in place, what's your opinion on the Dark Depths + Thespian Stage combo?

I ran it in GW. It was clunky at times, and if they wasteland your one part leaving you with a useless land. At other times it completely stole games I had no business winning.

I can only tell you to test it yourself , in your meta and see if YOU like it.

[kohulk]

I have tested dark depths combo in the vial version with 3 weatheted wayfarers/3kotr to tutor lands and 3mor/2sylvan safekeepers to protect token and it's not what I expected. If the game goes long then its a win condition but early on, the investment of mana can cause you to loose games. In my opinion crop rotation is needed to add the suprise element on their EOT.

[pingpong]

What would be the most optimal dark mav list for scg new jersey?? Ive looked some but im running out ofbtime. I do plan to run the "cradle package" of cradle and sigarda. What are the most common sideboard cards ?? I have played GW extensively but feel the black splash is very good tomorrow.

[Barook]

What would be the most optimal dark mav list for scg new jersey?? Ive looked some but im running out ofbtime. I do plan to run the "cradle package" of cradle and sigarda. What are the most common sideboard cards ?? I have played GW extensively but feel the black splash is very good tomorrow.

Dark Maverick (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5738527) as it's currently popular on Modo. Overgrown Tomb should be Bayou #2. Adapt the sideboard as you see it fit. Why kind of meta do you expect?

[pingpong]

Dark Maverick (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5738527) as it's currently popular on Modo. Overgrown Tomb should be Bayou #2. Adapt the sideboard as you see it fit. Why kind of meta do you expect?

Your typical scg meta esper death blade and your other typical deck sprinkled with combo.

Would thoughtseize over duress's main be bad if I can aquire them ??

And why birds over noble?

[Barook]

And why birds over noble?
Access to black mana, I guess, since BoP are shitty Jitte carriers and Dark Maverick doesn't run Swords of X and Y.

[DYman]

What's the view on running Elspeth, Knight Errant vs Garruk Relentless? or is it better not to run them at all?

[Megadeus]

Ajani call of the Pride. Jump my 10/10 KOTR. Kill you?

For reference my buddies list he placed Tenth with in April

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54849

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

What's the view on running Elspeth, Knight Errant vs Garruk Relentless? or is it better not to run them at all?


walkers are very strong against fair decks and can usually swing the mirror in your favor, if you expect a ton of combo, they are best relegated to the board, if at all.

Personally prefer Elspeth, she is really tough for any deck to beat as she's always gaining loyalty and can end the game very quickly, however Garruk though shines in the mirror where he can shoot opposing moms and turn extra thalias into Knight of the reliquaries.

Haven't tested garruk in a whille to be frank though

[lordofthepit]

What's the view on running Elspeth, Knight Errant vs Garruk Relentless? or is it better not to run them at all?

Elspeth is my favorite planeswalker, but they're pretty close in general. I prefer Elspeth in G/W Maverick and Garruk in versions that splash, since 2WW is much harder to cast than 3G.

Against a deck like Miracles, Garruk is better because making a bunch of 2/2s is generally a faster way to win than making 1/1s or jumping your creatures. The ultimate doesn't do much against their removal suite.

I also like Garruk better in matchups like Stoneblade or BUG where there are a lot of small creatures you want to take out with his other +0 ability. This also allows you to transform and start making 1/1 deathtouch creatures which is very relevant against Tarmogoyfs. The overrun ultimate ability generally ends the game.

Elspeth is better in those matchups that get gummed up too much on the ground, but where you can reliably just jump your huge Knights over the opponent's defenses. Think things like Goblins.