[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[kohulk]

Elspeth is better in every situation. The problem is, can your manabase support her? People tend to use Garruk only because he is easier to cast, especially with gaea's cradle. Sure you can find other positive remarks but that's the main (and possibly) the only reason. Elspeth is a faster clock and gives evasion to huge kotr or sword cariers.
Garruk would be a milion times better if the flip condition wasn't mandatory. The 1/1 deathtouch usually are irrelevant cause maverick's problem aren't the "ground" creatures but rather the fliers. Even facing combo, you'd much rather have a 5 power qasali or thalia attacking than producing 2/2 that attack next turn. That's the reason ajani, caller of the pride has made it to various maverick lists but never became a staple because he seems irrelevant versus control decks which is were PWs are mostly used.

[Barook]

What's the reason that Black Maverick runs only 3 Wastelands in its current online iteration? Need of colored sources?

[Roland_Deschain]

This sunday is the 3rd tournament i play with maverick since the last post here on the forum. The firsts two i made top8 with straight gw and blue splash for brainstorm and JTMS, but that two aren`t huge torunaments. This last sunday i play with M@averick`s list and doing pretty well:

Monoblue show and tell 2x1
Reanimate 1x1
Death and taxes 2x1
RUG 2x1
URW 1x2
Esper Stoneblade 2x0
Punishing Jund 2x0

Top 8
Maverick 2x1

and since its getting late we decide to split top four.

This deck is great, and i only replace one surgical extraction for + 1 Rest in Peace on side, the rest is the same list.

[sdematt]

Elspeth is better in every situation. The problem is, can your manabase support her? People tend to use Garruk only because he is easier to cast, especially with gaea's cradle. Sure you can find other positive remarks but that's the main (and possibly) the only reason. Elspeth is a faster clock and gives evasion to huge kotr or sword cariers.
Garruk would be a milion times better if the flip condition wasn't mandatory. The 1/1 deathtouch usually are irrelevant cause maverick's problem aren't the "ground" creatures but rather the fliers. Even facing combo, you'd much rather have a 5 power qasali or thalia attacking than producing 2/2 that attack next turn. That's the reason ajani, caller of the pride has made it to various maverick lists but never became a staple because he seems irrelevant versus control decks which is were PWs are mostly used.

I think you just fell into the "strictly better" argument.

She's not strictly better than Garruk, they're two entirely different planeswalkers as outlined by LordofthePit. 2/2's and shooting creatures is different than jumping and making everything indestructible, as well as being differing mana costs. Against Miracles, making streams of Green 2/2's could be better if you're drawing a whole ton of nothing. As well, Green or Black tokens aren't hit by Dread of Night/Engineered Plague, which tends to be a burden on the deck when played.

I wouldn't say it's the ONLY reason. If you're running utility like Ulvenwald Tracker, suddenly Garruk is a house. He also tutors for creatures, so he can be relevant if you need to tutor up some sort of hate bear if the game goes long. Indestructibility may not be relevant in every situation.

I'll agree he'd be better if he had a +1 ability on the front, or a "may" flip. He'd be too good, perhaps.

-Matt

[Barook]

About the PW discussion: What about a single Thrun in the SB if you run the GSZ builds to fight off control?

[ironclad8690]

What's the reason that Black Maverick runs only 3 Wastelands in its current online iteration? Need of colored sources?

Yes exactly. Maverick is pretty mana intensive, and nothing is worse than not being able to cast that thoughtseize/swords to plowshares/qasali pridemage etc due to too many wastelands.

When you are only playing GW, it makes 4 wastelands much easier.

Decks like Jund can pull off 4 because they have dark confidant to draw extra cards each turn, as well as 4 deathrites to turn used wastelands into more colorful mana. We only have sylvan library and possibly a few deathrites.

[AlbyLegacy]

So I know splashing red in maverick is good for punishing fire for more agrro decks. Black I can see vs combo, but I don't think it's that much of a impact for maverick to splash. I feel GW versions are the best over all. Any one agree or am I missing something.

[AreYouSerious???]

So I know splashing red in maverick is good for punishing fire for more agrro decks. Black I can see vs combo, but I don't think it's that much of a impact for maverick to splash. I feel GW versions are the best over all. Any one agree or am I missing something.

Thank You!! :laugh:

[AreYouSerious???]

What about throwing in some consistency with GSZ builds so when we get Thoughtseized or Cliqued or FOW or whatever, there is at least a way to come back from it.. And also, have any of you ever read the primer??? There is a reason Pithing Needle is referred to as a "catch all" in the game

[AreYouSerious???]

What about throwing in some consistency with GSZ builds so when we get Thoughtseized or Cliqued or FOW or whatever, there is at least a way to come back from it.. And also, have any of you ever read the primer??? There is a reason Pithing Needle is referred to as a "catch all" in the game

Hint Hint... Oh and sorry, there was supposed to be a "so" between "whatever" and "there" :)

[ThediscoPower]

did you really have to triple post just to get your point accross?

[AreYouSerious???]

did you really have to triple post just to get your point accross?

Lol, no. I was simply responding to the guy who was saying that the g/w build was the best and therefore should STAY g/w :) and the reason for my REPLY was because I didnt want people to get confused or anything when reading my original post

[Koby]

So I know splashing red in maverick is good for punishing fire for more agrro decks. Black I can see vs combo, but I don't think it's that much of a impact for maverick to splash. I feel GW versions are the best over all. Any one agree or am I missing something.

I've been saying this since I began playing it. GW has the same options, and with good tight play you can be just as good as the red splash anyway. Black offers something completely different, so it's at least worth looking at those builds.

[ThediscoPower]

Lol, no. I was simply responding to the guy who was saying that the g/w build was the best and therefore should STAY g/w :) and the reason for my REPLY was because I didnt want people to get confused or anything when reading my original post

ok...you do understand that there is an edit option for this, right?

Aside from that, I believe that it stays a question of preference after all. In my case, I like the black splash and can't imagine playing without it because 1. I think deathrite is simply too strong to ignore, 2. consistancy of the deck isn't touched that much, especially that the splash is discard in sideboard + abrupt decay. Some versions play discard main deck, but I did not try those versions 3. i find discard to help in matchups that I think harder for the original version, notably combo matchups and controlish matchups 4. Decay is also too versatile to ignore, and deals with a majority of the random stuff that can show up against you, while also helping with miracles or stoneblade variants. However, that's all my opinion.

If you want to play punishing maverick, or vial maverick, or straight maverick go right ahead. I think those are all strong options, and they all have potential. However, I don't believe there are STRICTLY better options, as you seem to imply. Different builds, different style. Try them. love one. win with it.

[AreYouSerious???]

ok...you do understand that there is an edit option for this, right?

Aside from that, I believe that it stays a question of preference after all. In my case, I like the black splash and can't imagine playing without it because 1. I think deathrite is simply too strong to ignore, 2. consistancy of the deck isn't touched that much, especially that the splash is discard in sideboard + abrupt decay. Some versions play discard main deck, but I did not try those versions 3. i find discard to help in matchups that I think harder for the original version, notably combo matchups and controlish matchups 4. Decay is also too versatile to ignore, and deals with a majority of the random stuff that can show up against you, while also helping with miracles or stoneblade variants. However, that's all my opinion.

If you want to play punishing maverick, or vial maverick, or straight maverick go right ahead. I think those are all strong options, and they all have potential. However, I don't believe there are STRICTLY better options, as you seem to imply. Different builds, different style. Try them. love one. win with it.

Well.. If you wouldve done your due diligence and looked at my join date or post number, you couldve easily figured out that I was a new member.. So, sorry for that everyone, but anyway about the builds.. I get that it all depends on meta, but when it comes to deck types.. I'm sorry to say, there actually IS a better choice or else there wouldnt be things like top 8's or worlds.. In fact, that is why Maverick even exists; because it had done well in Europe and now it is here and (after much extended, rigorous play) has become one of ther better choices of the Legacy format.. I understand that there are different builds and everybody has a point of view and that; yes, different builds work better with different situations, but cmon.. Its called g/w maverick for a reason. Just give it some time guys/girls, ladies/gents pretty soon (like always) WOTC will do something or print something that will be INSANely broken and to much our luck... It'll be green :P ... Or white XD

[AreYouSerious???]

Well.. If you wouldve done your due diligence and looked at my join date or post number, you couldve easily figured out that I was a new member.. So, sorry for that everyone, but anyway about the builds.. I get that it all depends on meta, but when it comes to deck types.. I'm sorry to say, there actually IS a better choice or else there wouldnt be things like top 8's or worlds.. In fact, that is why Maverick even exists; because it had done well in Europe and now it is here and (after much extended, rigorous play) has become one of ther better choices of the Legacy format.. I understand that there are different builds and everybody has a point of view and that; yes, different builds work better with different situations, but cmon.. Its called g/w maverick for a reason. Just give it some time guys/girls, ladies/gents pretty soon (like always) WOTC will do something or print something that will be INSANely broken and to much our luck... It'll be green :P ... Or white XD

Sorry guys.. More incorrect grammar...

[ThediscoPower]

Well.. If you wouldve done your due diligence and looked at my join date or post number, you couldve easily figured out that I was a new member.. So, sorry for that everyone, but anyway about the builds.. I get that it all depends on meta, but when it comes to deck types.. I'm sorry to say, there actually IS a better choice or else there wouldnt be things like top 8's or worlds.. In fact, that is why Maverick even exists; because it had done well in Europe and now it is here and (after much extended, rigorous play) has become one of ther better choices of the Legacy format.. I understand that there are different builds and everybody has a point of view and that; yes, different builds work better with different situations, but cmon.. Its called g/w maverick for a reason. Just give it some time guys/girls, ladies/gents pretty soon (like always) WOTC will do something or print something that will be INSANely broken and to much our luck... It'll be green :P ... Or white XD

hum...yes. yes . You are right. i agree.

[s6sculve]

This is my current G/W/b Maverick list, I really like the black splash, I'm happy with it, tell me what you think.

Creatures 25:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Instants and Sorceries 8:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts 2:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment 1:
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalker 1:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands 23:
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
2 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Oblivion Rings
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tower of the Magistrate

[nicoleptik]

This is my current G/W/b Maverick list, I really like the black splash, I'm happy with it, tell me what you think.

Creatures 25:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Instants and Sorceries 8:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts 2:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment 1:
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalker 1:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands 23:
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
2 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Oblivion Rings
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Wtf? No Swords main? Are you kidding me? Moreover, your curb seems too high with seven 3 drops, and double white for Linvala and Elspeth seems challenging with 9 lands which don't produce any. Without Cavern of Souls, your RUG MU should be worse too.

My 2 cents.

[Fatal]

Agree with mana:

Too many B/G required for removal (Decay's) compared with white source, also I think that cutting stp is mistake - specially vs mirror/D&T - turn 1 mom will just kill you.

To fix this problem fit more green-based creatures instead of Crusaders or fix your removal to stp and decay to sb and add more white sources.

[bumgun]

So I've recently put a standard G/W list together and I'm looking for some advice on any glaring weaknesses that some veterans may see. Here's the current 75:

Main
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls

Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam
1 Linvala

My current sideboard doesn't feel very solid right now. The extra Cavern is to help out with the greater than average amount of RUG Delver players present at the local shops. Likely cutting Linvala and Loam since I'm having trouble thinking of situations where I'd prefer them over other cards in the 75. Even been tossing around the idea of adding Loxodon Smiters to help deal with Liliana as well as a couple Path to Exiles since they seem pretty good lately.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

[nicoleptik]

So I've recently put a standard G/W list together and I'm looking for some advice on any glaring weaknesses that some veterans may see. Here's the current 75:
Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam
1 Linvala

My current sideboard doesn't feel very solid right now. The extra Cavern is to help out with the greater than average amount of RUG Delver players present at the local shops. Likely cutting Linvala and Loam since I'm having trouble thinking of situations where I'd prefer them over other cards in the 75. Even been tossing around the idea of adding Loxodon Smiters to help deal with Liliana as well as a couple Path to Exiles since they seem pretty good lately.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Seems wrong to me to waste a SB slot on cavern; better fitting it in the main in place of the second canopy. Rest in Peace is strong in D&T sideboard, but in mav it could wreck your Knights. Linvala rocks against decks with DRS or elves. I would switch the Loam for a path, as Loam seems great against MU with LD (mostly RUG, D&T and mav mirrors), but is a HUGE loss of tempo you can't really afford in those MU.

[s6sculve]

Wtf? No Swords main? Are you kidding me? Moreover, your curb seems too high with seven 3 drops, and double white for Linvala and Elspeth seems challenging with 9 lands which don't produce any. Without Cavern of Souls, your RUG MU should be worse too.

My 2 cents.

I find Abrupt Decay more useful, I have 8 fetch lands and Deathrite Shaman, splashing for four cards hasn't been a problem. Deathrite goes a long way to improve mana bases.

[s6sculve]

Agree with mana:

Too many B/G required for removal (Decay's) compared with white source, also I think that cutting stp is mistake - specially vs mirror/D&T - turn 1 mom will just kill you.

To fix this problem fit more green-based creatures instead of Crusaders or fix your removal to stp and decay to sb and add more white sources.

Idk, I've felt comfortable with the mana base.

Sometimes I cut Pridmage for one Swords to Plowshares main as a 5th removal spell. I haven't missed the four of them though, Abrupt Decay puts creatures in the graveyard for Deathrite to eat, Swords to Plowshares doesn't, it also kills opposing Jitte's, Swords of Something or Other, Aether Vial, Counter Balance, Liliana of the Veil, ect.

I've played the stock GW Mirror post M14, whoever has more Mother of Runes is important and can usually win, but whoever gets an active Jitte first does win.

[AlbyLegacy]

This is my current G/W/b Maverick list, I really like the black splash, I'm happy with it, tell me what you think.

Creatures 25:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Instants and Sorceries 8:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts 2:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment 1:
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalker 1:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands 23:
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
2 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Oblivion Rings
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tower of the Magistrate



I like this list. Decay over swords does not look too bad, but swords being the best removal spell of all time seems like it should at least have 2-3 slots.

[bumgun]

Seems wrong to me to waste a SB slot on cavern; better fitting it in the main in place of the second canopy. Rest in Peace is strong in D&T sideboard, but in mav it could wreck your Knights. Linvala rocks against decks with DRS or elves. I would switch the Loam for a path, as Loam seems great against MU with LD (mostly RUG, D&T and mav mirrors), but is a HUGE loss of tempo you can't really afford in those MU.

I'm a little hesitant to cut a Canopy due to everything about the card helping this deck run more smoothly against most possible matchups. The 2nd Cavern is really just to help me stick some humans against the many RUG decks in the area. I agree that it's normally a waste of a valuable spot.

As bad as RiP makes my Knights, wouldn't it hurt my opponent's gameplan in any matchup that warrants it?

Forgot about the elves matchup when it comes to Linvala. Specifically symbiote being a problem for the jitte plan.

Agreed on Loam. Nobles and basics help prevent LD from being a problem and I doubt there are many situations that I'd need more than 3 or 4 wastelands to win. Path I can see boarding in often to help take care of opposing moms, delvers, and DRS.

[Vandalize]

I've been testing the GWb list, as it seems better than straight GW in this metagame.

The list is the following:

Lands [22]
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [23]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Spells [15]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam

I'm uncertain in four things:

1) 23 creatures (24 with arbor) is enough to support Jitte? I really feel those Thoughtseizes (which are mostly taking creature slots) are worth it.

2) The lack of Gaea's Cradle maindeck. It's such a powerful card when paired with Ooze and Equipment, but I feel it isn't necessary.

3) Engineered Explosives and the 3rd Abrupt Decay are my flex slots, should they become Duress or some sort of discard effect?

4) How good is Lingering Souls in this deck? I've never tried it, but seems good in theory.

I hope someone can enlighten me :d

[AlbyLegacy]

ok. so Maverick can go GW, or GWB for the most part. just depends one what your goal is with the deck.
I am big on disruption and consisted. I am sticking to GW right now.



// Deck: maverick (60)

// Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


The 2 Aven Minsencors , 4 Thalia ,4 wasteland is my disruption. its good against control decks and some combo decks like storm. 2 caverns lets you stick your mothers, nobles , knights, and thalia.

naming wizard sticks the Aven Mincensor and the Pridemage. I run 3 Pridemage because with the new legend rule jitte will be out more plus more decks are playing revoker, pithing needle, and

batterskull main. I play the 1 Garruck relentless over Elspeth because I am trying it out and I feel he is really good. I play 1 Thrun because he is just a beast vs a lot of control decks, also with all these

decks playing deathrite- abrupt decay. knight is not that good. everything else seems pretty Maverick basic. GW allows the mana base to stay strong allowing you to use your wastelands aggressively

making Thalia and Aven mindsencor really good. hope this helped. any suggestions are welcomed .

[AlbyLegacy]

So I've recently put a standard G/W list together and I'm looking for some advice on any glaring weaknesses that some veterans may see. Here's the current 75:

Main
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls

Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Life from the Loam
1 Linvala

My current sideboard doesn't feel very solid right now. The extra Cavern is to help out with the greater than average amount of RUG Delver players present at the local shops. Likely cutting Linvala and Loam since I'm having trouble thinking of situations where I'd prefer them over other cards in the 75. Even been tossing around the idea of adding Loxodon Smiters to help deal with Liliana as well as a couple Path to Exiles since they seem pretty good lately.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.




solid main deck list. Only thing I would really change is adding 1 more cavern of souls. you are running 16 humans. ( noble, mother, knight, thalia, sylvan safekeeper)

[Barook]

Edit: Updated list to reflect the changes mentioned below:

I'll give the following list a try (Cockatrice put it out in that random order):

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Batterskull
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Duress
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4th DRS should be an Ooze, but it should do its job until I can get my hands on one. 1 Duress might be replaced with another Thoughtseize, depending on its performance. I'm probably cutting Cavern of Souls since I don't play that many Humans in the current list - but what should I add? I think a 4th Wasteland might be good, although a 2nd Canopy has its charm as well.

Edit: Got my hands on an Ooze, but I kinda liked having 4 DRS. Sure, they're worse as accelerants, but they're pretty damn great in terms of utility and as lighting rods. And they can carry a Jitte. I'm trying out a 4 DRS/1 BoP configuration now and see how it goes.
As for the Cavern slot - I'm running a 4th Savannah for now since the deck is color-hungry and Savannahs can be used for KotR activations.

Has anybody tried out Volrath's Stronghold as a KotR target in the black splash version?

[AlbyLegacy]

I'll give the following list a try (Cockatrice put it out in that random order):

4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Batterskull
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Duress
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4th DRS should be an Ooze, but it should do its job until I can get my hands on one. 1 Duress might be replaced with another Thoughtseize, depending on its performance. I'm probably cutting Cavern of Souls since I don't play that many Humans in the current list - but what should I add? I think a 4th Wasteland might be good, although a 2nd Canopy has its charm as well.

List looks good. Cavern 1 of is good because you are running a tri color.
Maybe a basic Swamp? Or bojuka bog?

[Megadeus]

Does anyone run life from the loam? My buddy runs it as a one of main deck and it has been Damn solid as another way to waste your opponent out of the game

[Barook]

List looks good. Cavern 1 of is good because you are running a tri color.
Maybe a basic Swamp? Or bojuka bog?
Cavern is actually underwhelming because I'm run 3 colors and too many spread creature types.

For now, I'm going with the 4th Savannah. I'm not a fan of the basic swamp since the deck isn't that black-intensive and it might hinder my actual spells if I have it in my opening seven.

MD Bog might be a possibility. Although 4 DRS + Ooze + GSZ give the deck already plenty of ways to attack the GY MD. Although it would open up a SB slot, which might be actually interesting.

To go back to the PW discussion: Has anybody tried running both Elspeth and Garruk Relentless in the same 75? It would double the chance to draw a walker without screwing yourself when you draw the second one.

So, candidates for the "flex spot": Garruk, Choke, Thrun, Zealous Persecution or Sigarda, Host of Herons

Edit: Why are people only talking about LftL when considering a Wastelock? CoW should work as well, without spending mana all the time, and it can be E-tutored. Yes, it's vulnerable to AD and the likes, but LftL gets hit just as hard by GY hate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How often has it been the case that you have had an Elspeth, Knight-Errant in play and been, "Oh, gee, now I'm going to lose because this card I have in hand is a duplicate of the incredibly powerful permanent I have in play that I can't cast."

I am pretty sure the only times this happens to me involve Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker.

[Koby]

My experience with multiple planeswalkers (qty greater than 1 total in deck) has been that they are difficult to cast. The better 'walkers are 4 mana (Elspy & Garruk). The frequency of seeing both 'walkers in your hand is fairly low (about one in 16 games more or less). Deploying them would take take a decent effort to ramp to 4 mana. Having them glut in your hand due to a small mana screw is not desirable. Outside of Miracles and Landstill, where would we want two copies of 'walkers? Keep in mind both players can maintain Elspeth on board, so "vindicate" is not longer a viable option.

[Megadeus]

Edit: Why are people only talking about LftL when considering a Wastelock? CoW should work as well, without spending mana all the time, and it can be E-tutored. Yes, it's vulnerable to AD and the likes, but LftL gets hit just as hard by GY hate.

Well people (me only really) asked because loam just seems like the better card for our deck considering we are a base green deck. And like you said, abrupt decay hits crucible. Also a start vs some one like, T1 Noble T2 Wasteland you, loam back wasteland, seems like a powerful tempo play. Similar to going mana dork into thalia plus waste ifs also quite a powerful play. Loam allows you to go on a more aggressive wasteland plan. And wasting the crap out of the green black greedy mana bases is probably what you will be doing anyway so the is no reason to unnecessarily expose your lock to AD. Basically in a situation like this, what does crucible really do here that loam can't?

[Barook]

After getting unlucky with Vial Maverick and always going 2-2 or worse the last few weeks, I immediately went 4-0 and won the latest Legacy DE with the new Black Maverick build above - sweet!

Short tournament report:

R1: Reanimator

G1: He goes for an early Griselbrand via Entomb. I was expecting Tin Fins, but turns out he's on Reanimator, beating me slowly down with Grizzelbees. Meanwhile, I lay down DRS and Mom on Turn 2, followed up with a KotR who fetches Karakas. At that point, it was game. No idea why he didn't try to draw into counters, though.

G2: He keeps a no-lander hand for whatever reason. I lay down a T1 DRS, he discards Griselbrand, plays Petal --> Careful Study and concedes.

No idea what the hell that was.

R2: Dredge

G1: He does his thing while I can land a DRS. But it's already too late and he can sac a Narcomoeba to Therapy for 3 tokens. I play another DRS and he starts the beats with a second Moeba and his 3 zombies (for some reason, he didn't use the other Therapies to produce more tokens). I block with my second DRS to get rid of his 3 Bridges and trade a Pridemage with a Zombie a turn later. I get landflooded and durdle around with my DRS to stay alive, removing important creatures in the process. At 5 life, I finally draw a GSZ which searches for Ooze while I have shittons of mana. He concedes.

G2: He goes City, Breakthrough. I play Bog. He lays down a Coliseum, I waste it and play DRS. He concedes. (I also had E-tutor for Gravedigger's Cage in hand - good times)

R3: Junk

This was more or less a mirror match. He didn't run Moms, but Liliana, among other things.

G1: I get in some early damage and amass creatures on the board while getting rid of his Batterskull and Jitte. However, his second SFM grabs him a SoFF. He's at 9 at that point, but I can't punch through since his 2 DRS neutered my KotR. Luckily, I draw Batterskull and form a Plan B. I fetch Cradle, equip Batterskull to my BoP which I fetched early for manafixing and swing for the win despite him pulling some double Liliana shenanigans.

G2: Lots of removal flinging at the beginning of the game, but then I get stuck on one Scrubland and he lays down a Liliana while I have nothing on the board. Game over.

G3: I can stick a DRS and a Jitte, but he got an early double DRS and a flashbacked Lingering Souls, which put lots of pressure on me. I try to stay alive while his DRS and tokens wreck havoc on my live total. A Phyrexian Revoker stops his DRS from killing me, while I dance around 1 life point and take out one of creatures each turn. Mom comes down and so does a KotR, but he draws a Liliana and Mom must go. While things look dire, I draw GSZ --> Cradle --> Ooze with tons of mana. With the extra life gained, I can easily kill the rest of his board without holding back and swing with an 8/8 Ooze, among other things.

R4: BigBlackPox playing Pox:

G1: I get an early DRS, Mom and Jitte online while he has Cursed Scroll and Tabernacle. Thoughtseize hits Liliana, while I lose my DRS to Smallpox. Mom with Jitte continues the beats. He made a mistake when he tried to kill her with Factory + Scroll (he had to block anyway since he was at 2 life), but was one mana short. He draws another Factory the next turn, but I topdeck Wasteland and he's toast.

G2: I get an early Ooze and KotR (which should get rid of his Tabernacle), but he goes Ritual --> Perish. I topdeck Library and sculp my hand while he's still manascrewed. I draw DRS and GSZ for KotR, he gets a Liliana. I lay down Pridemage and a Revoker for Liliana, however both die protecting KotR from double Smallpox. My hand was gone and he had one card left - another Smallpox, as my Duress revealed. KotR kills Liliana while he gets his Nether Spirit into play. I could StP it, but prefer to draw Elspeth which I play thanks to KotR mana tricks. He swings with his second Factory since I'm only at 5 life due Library draws and fetch uses, but in the end, it's futile, since he's at 15 life and I grab a fetchland to let my KotR grow to 12/12. One Elspeth jump later and he's a goner.



Overall, I'm more than satisfied with the deck's performance so far. Its capability to combat the graveyard is downright insane. For now, 4 DRS are here to stay since he's the nuts. 1 BoP for mana fixing is enough.

I can't say much about the board or the discard package, though. They did their jobs, but more playtesting is required to figure out the right numbers.

[AlbyLegacy]

Cavern is actually underwhelming because I'm run 3 colors and too many spread creature types.

For now, I'm going with the 4th Savannah. I'm not a fan of the basic swamp since the deck isn't that black-intensive and it might hinder my actual spells if I have it in my opening seven.

MD Bog might be a possibility. Although 4 DRS + Ooze + GSZ give the deck already plenty of ways to attack the GY MD. Although it would open up a SB slot, which might be actually interesting.

To go back to the PW discussion: Has anybody tried running both Elspeth and Garruk Relentless in the same 75? It would double the chance to draw a walker without screwing yourself when you draw the second one.

So, candidates for the "flex spot": Garruk, Choke, Thrun, Zealous Persecution or Sigarda, Host of Herons

Edit: Why are people only talking about LftL when considering a Wastelock? CoW should work as well, without spending mana all the time, and it can be E-tutored. Yes, it's vulnerable to AD and the likes, but LftL gets hit just as hard by GY hate.

Year I agree with cavern not being that great in dark maverick. You need your color lands .

[AlbyLegacy]

Does anyone run life from the loam? My buddy runs it as a one of main deck and it has been Damn solid as another way to waste your opponent out of the game

Its really good in the punishing maverick deck.
The other decks just seem to use sylvan library for more card selection over card advantage.

[Barook]

How are you handling Shardless BUG? Especially the versions with Whipflare seem troublesome.

I've already discussed it with Sunyveil a bit. SFM + SOFaF seems nice, but SoFaF dies to AD. He made the suggestion that Master of the Wild Hunt might have some merit. At the very least, that sounds like an interesting option since it's immune to both AD and Whipflare.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My experience with multiple planeswalkers (qty greater than 1 total in deck) has been that they are difficult to cast. The better 'walkers are 4 mana (Elspy & Garruk). The frequency of seeing both 'walkers in your hand is fairly low (about one in 16 games more or less). Deploying them would take take a decent effort to ramp to 4 mana. Having them glut in your hand due to a small mana screw is not desirable. Outside of Miracles and Landstill, where would we want two copies of 'walkers? Keep in mind both players can maintain Elspeth on board, so "vindicate" is not longer a viable option.

What if you actually want to draw the one.

Why do people want so bad to run random lucky one ofs they have no way to tutor for. It's like a goddamn neurosis.

[AlbyLegacy]

How are you handling Shardless BUG? Especially the versions with Whipflare seem troublesome.

I've already discussed it with Sunyveil a bit. SFM + SOFaF seems nice, but SoFaF dies to AD. He made the suggestion that Master of the Wild Hunt might have some merit. At the very least, that sounds like an interesting option since it's immune to both AD and Whipflare.

I really love wild hunt. He is basically The green lava mancer. 90% of the creatures in legacy that matter are power 2 or less. He also builds a clock with out you having to over extend your board and loose to a sweeper.

[Barook]

I really love wild hunt. He is basically The green lava mancer. 90% of the creatures in legacy that matter are power 2 or less. He also builds a clock with out you having to over extend your board and loose to a sweeper.
So he's worth a sideboard slot as a GSZ target? Building an army to blank Liliana has potential as well.

[AlbyLegacy]

So he's worth a sideboard slot as a GSZ target? Building an army to blank Liliana has potential as well.



I think he is worth some testing. Might be a hiding gem.

[Koby]

What if you actually want to draw the one.

Why do people want so bad to run random lucky one ofs they have no way to tutor for. It's like a goddamn neurosis.

That's what sideboards are for. Unlike Blue decks with Brainstorms, we don't have ways to maximize redundant copies of non-creature cards in this deck. When the function of this deck relies on hitting just the right <creatures> in the right time frame, drawing redundant or useless copies of non-creature cards (StP, Sylvan Library, 2nd 'Walker) serve no purpose but to set up a dead draw. At least with Sylvan Library, there's the option of setting it back on top and shuffling it away; but outside that unique case drawing Elspeth #2 when you needed something else could be the difference of winning and losing a close game.

I don't think there's a logical proof for it either. It's all about the feel. Some game you really need the Elspeth (both first or second), and others you don't need either. I would rather hedge one in maindeck and shore it up with sideboard copies. This serves to keep the sideboard flexible enough.

"Jack of All Trades, Master of None" in the maindeck.
"Laser focused" after sideboard.

[Barook]

Just won another Legacy Daily 4-0. My track record so far isn't too shabby with the current build: 4-0, 0-2 (lost twice in a row to Omniscience bullshit yesterday) and 4-0 again today.

Match-ups today were UR S&T with Omniscience (got revenge for the loss yesterday), Elves! (got lucky), BUG Shardless and Reanimator.

Same deck as before, with the only change being the replacement of the rather useless Zuran Orb with Master of the Wild Hunt. Only got him really active in G3 against BUG, but he did a damn well job there, completely dismantling his board position. I could see him being useful in various creature match-ups as well, but that needs more testing.

[AlbyLegacy]

Just won another Legacy Daily 4-0. My track record so far isn't too shabby with the current build: 4-0, 0-2 (lost twice in a row to Omniscience bullshit yesterday) and 4-0 again today.

Match-ups today were UR S&T with Omniscience (got revenge for the loss yesterday), Elves! (got lucky), BUG Shardless and Reanimator.

Same deck as before, with the only change being the replacement of the rather useless Zuran Orb with Master of the Wild Hunt. Only got him really active in G3 against BUG, but he did a damn well job there, completely dismantling his board position. I could see him being useful in various creature match-ups as well, but that needs more testing.

Good stuff. Keep us updates how that card does.

[SirTylerGalt]

Good stuff. Keep us updates how that card does.

Some versions of Nic Fit ran Ulvenwald Tracker. I wonder if that would be a better GSZ target if you just need a green Grim Lavamancer? Of course, it does not give the same board presence, but it's always fun to make a creature fight your Knight :)

[Barook]

Some versions of Nic Fit ran Ulvenwald Tracker. I wonder if that would be a better GSZ target if you just need a green Grim Lavamancer? Of course, it does not give the same board presence, but it's always fun to make a creature fight your Knight :)
I've considered Ulvenwald Tracker, but I see various problems with it:

- it needs other creatures to be good
- it costs mana to activate
- it dies to AD, Whipflare and lots of other stuff

While Tracker is significantly cheaper, I don't think he's good enough, but I could be wrong. MotWH seems overall better - he comes with his own built-in army and has immunity to certain kinds of removal, especially the ones common in the BUG Shardless match-up, which was the reason for his inclusion in the first place.

@AlbyLegacy: I'll try, but there needs to be more testing. I kind of like him so far.

[Koby]

FYI (and I'll post more once I get home form work)

Traditional (GW Zenith) Maverick got 2nd place at a 54 person tournament last night. The pilot is pretty new to competitive environment as well. This leads me to think that the deck is good again, and the pilot played exceptionally well. I'll ask him for better details, or to post his report if he's got an account.

Cheers

[Barook]

This leads me to think that the deck is good again
That's actually suprising, though, Miracles is all but gone. Although the reduced numbers might help. I'm rather puzzled why Omnitell isn't tearing apart everything yet.

I think the black splash has a lot of merit since DRS is an insane workhorse in various match-ups and does an excellent job at keeping opposing DRS at bay while you could care less about it.

A package of Ooze/DRS/GSZ gives you a very powerful graveyard-hate package at high consistency MD which can be boosted even further with a few sideboard slots to insane levels. The build with 4 DRS I'm currently using is probably the most graveyard-hating deck in the format post-sideboarding.

[Koby]

That's actually suprising, though, Miracles is all but gone. Although the reduced numbers might help. I'm rather puzzled why Omnitell isn't tearing apart everything yet.

I think the black splash has a lot of merit since DRS is an insane workhorse in various match-ups and does an excellent job at keeping opposing DRS at bay while you could care less about it.

A package of Ooze/DRS/GSZ gives you a very powerful graveyard-hate package at high consistency MD which can be boosted even further with a few sideboard slots to insane levels. The build with 4 DRS I'm currently using is probably the most graveyard-hating deck in the format post-sideboarding.

First point, three Miracle decks made Top 8 at this tournament. It was an odd bracket: Miracles (W,W,W) vs Miracles plays the winner of Sneak Show (W,L) vs Miracles ...LOL; other side of the bracket was Dredge (W, L) vs Goblins plays the winner of Maverick (W,W,L) vs BUG Delver. So pretty much Aggro on one side, and control/combo on the other. Another Miracle also made 9th place. I think for the most part, Maverick deck dodged like crazy.

Additionally, there were at least 3 Sneak Show decks and at least 3 OmniHall decks at this tournament, so it wasn't for a lack of them.

Second point, I dont differentiate greatly between GW and GW/b. The splash helps to address combo decks, but the core of the deck is its strength.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what Matt (said player) writes up to know the exact details.

[Megadeus]

Tracker isn't that bad. The fact that he comes online quicker vs stuff like goyf is nice. Master off the wild hunt takes a few turns to really start doing anything. Consider that he comes down turn 3 at earliest, more often than not turn 4 via GSZ, Then he isn't even taking down mid sized goyfs until turn 6-7. I played him for a long time in nic fit and it was always very meh

[Barook]

Tracker isn't that bad. The fact that he comes online quicker vs stuff like goyf is nice. Master off the wild hunt takes a few turns to really start doing anything. Consider that he comes down turn 3 at earliest, more often than not turn 4 via GSZ, Then he isn't even taking down mid sized goyfs until turn 6-7. I played him for a long time in nic fit and it was always very meh
Even with Tracker, you need a creature of decent size to get the killing started. And unless you have a decent-sized KotR, I doubt you're going to take down a Goyf that easily.

Besides, Goyfs are less of a problem unless in multiples or being at least 5/6 since you can work up the graveyard quite nicely.


First point, three Miracle decks made Top 8 at this tournament. It was an odd bracket: Miracles (W,W,W) vs Miracles plays the winner of Sneak Show (W,L) vs Miracles ...LOL; other side of the bracket was Dredge (W, L) vs Goblins plays the winner of Maverick (W,W,L) vs BUG Delver. So pretty much Aggro on one side, and control/combo on the other. Another Miracle also made 9th place. I think for the most part, Maverick deck dodged like crazy.

Additionally, there were at least 3 Sneak Show decks and at least 3 OmniHall decks at this tournament, so it wasn't for a lack of them.

Second point, I dont differentiate greatly between GW and GW/b. The splash helps to address combo decks, but the core of the deck is its strength.
That was certainly a lucky bracket for him, then.

And I wouldn't say that Sneak & Show isn't too bad of a match-up, despite them getting stupid auto-wins from time to time. It only gets really troublesome if they can land an Omniscience which is pretty much instant game over unless they have zero gas left and brick. That ruined me yesterday because my Karakas in play was turned useless.

I do think that there's a difference between the GW and and GW/b variant since DRS' reach ability is quite powerful on its own. Hell, I shot a BUG player from 20 to 0 by just using 3x DRS today without swinging a single time. Maverick and variants might be an interesting topic for your next Podcast.

[Koby]

I'll add it to the list of growing topics. I would certainly feel better chatting about it with some practice behind it to back it up. Guess I have a new project...

[Barook]

I'll add it to the list of growing topics. I would certainly feel better chatting about it with some practice behind it to back it up. Guess I have a new project...

I think the growing number of decks adapting Deathrite Shaman is a topic in itself which probably also has a broader appeal to the audience.

Edit: Also how to deal with them. The topic was already slightly touched in the last podcast, but only from a GY-deck perspective. DRS can ruin your day even without caring about your graveyard.

[ThediscoPower]

Even with Tracker, you need a creature of decent size to get the killing started. And unless you have a decent-sized KotR, I doubt you're going to take down a Goyf that easily.

Besides, Goyfs are less of a problem unless in multiples or being at least 5/6 since you can work up the graveyard quite nicely.

Just wanted to barge in, as i have been using tracker in the sideboard starting last week, to pretty good results so far in creature based matchups, mostly. Also, as far is the argument of having a decent sized creature argument goes, when it is mostly true, I had situations when a small creature was enough for tracker to do his job. For exemple, exalted creature interact well with him (exemple I ran in last week, I attack with thalia, exalted trigger resolves, shoot down his deathrite with 3/2 thalia), and, mostly, something along the lines of a 2/2 is more than enough to take out what you need to take out (I use it mostly to kill deathrites, elves, merfolks lords, and I imagine I would side it in against goblins, but I did not get to play against that deck yet). Aside from that, he has also been very good with garruck relentless in general, let it be the 2/2 tokens or the deathtouch tokens (obviously). Finally, I don`t think the card should be judged by it's (poor) ability to kill huge creatures, because, in my experience, you are not ever really shooting down big guys with it, but always the little creatures you happen to find in creature matchups.

however, I am interested in seeing how master of the wild hunt goes for you, as I like what the card brings in general. My only concern was the mana cost, and the fact that you have to wait a whole turn before it does anything( however, to same can be said about tracker). Looking forward to this.

[Barook]

@ThediscoPower: Tracker might be better in builds that are more exalted-heavy (thus including Hierarchs). But since I only run 2 Pridemages, I rarely get Exalted triggers. And I currently don't run Garruk Relentless (which has the odd problem that his flipped form dies to AD because his CMC is :0: - something that hasn't been mentioned before).

MotWH is probably going to fill a niche since he's immune to AD. I like hearing "I can't deal with that". Yes, he's slow (and thus not MD material), but speed isn't your main concern in the match-ups where he matters since you're going to grind out your opponent.

[Megadeus]

You do have a point. Being higher than 3 CMC actually means a lot these days.

[ThediscoPower]

@ThediscoPower: Tracker might be better in builds that are more exalted-heavy (thus including Hierarchs). But since I only run 2 Pridemages, I rarely get Exalted triggers. And I currently don't run Garruk Relentless (which has the odd problem that his flipped form dies to AD because his CMC is :0: - something that hasn't been mentioned before).

MotWH is probably going to fill a niche since he's immune to AD. I like hearing "I can't deal with that". Yes, he's slow (and thus not MD material), but speed isn't your main concern in the match-ups where he matters since you're going to grind out your opponent.

well this is the difference I think. I am not bringing in tracker nor garruck against shardless or jund, so I think I understand where you are comming from, as you want a response specific to shardless. From my side, i have been satisfied with thrun and wilt-leaf liege to bring in against them. If not those, I believe even loxodon smiter isn't bad against them (die to decay, but at least it's the only thing that hits it), but I would probably run a second liege before running smiter if I believe a lot of bug/jund are to show up in a tourney.

[useL]

well this is the difference I think. I am not bringing in tracker nor garruck against shardless or jund, so I think I understand where you are comming from, as you want a response specific to shardless. From my side, i have been satisfied with thrun and wilt-leaf liege to bring in against them. If not those, I believe even loxodon smiter isn't bad against them (die to decay, but at least it's the only thing that hits it), but I would probably run a second liege before running smiter if I believe a lot of bug/jund are to show up in a tourney.

What's the problem with shardless/jund? Just play Sigarda in your main and win. Ramp up, resolve, tap sideways 3-4 times. They can not handle her except with a Pernicious Deed so should be kind of free win.

[Barook]

What's the problem with shardless/jund? Just play Sigarda in your main and win. Ramp up, resolve, tap sideways 3-4 times. They can not handle her except with a Pernicious Deed so should be kind of free win.
5/6 mana is alot to ask for, especially since they run a full set of Wasteland. 4/5 mana is already alot.

And good luck with Sigarda if they have a Baleful Strix active since it needs to be answered via Mom/StP first.

Can't say much about Jund, though, since I've only played two matches against it (Punishing variant) so far and the pilot was kinda inexperienced with a bit of a weird build. So the data of doing reasonable well against it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[ThediscoPower]

What's the problem with shardless/jund? Just play Sigarda in your main and win. Ramp up, resolve, tap sideways 3-4 times. They can not handle her except with a Pernicious Deed so should be kind of free win.

Sigarda is only playable in the straight g/w version, as without something like craddle it's borderline impossible to cast it reliably. Bah, even resolving thrun is enough sometimes in those games. As it has been proven in the past, when in doubt, play hexproof. I heard wizard thought that it was somewhat more interactive than shroud.

[Barook]

Sigarda is only playable in the straight g/w version, as without something like craddle it's borderline impossible to cast it reliably. Bah, even resolving thrun is enough sometimes in those games. As it has been proven in the past, when in doubt, play hexproof. I heard wizard thought that it was somewhat more interactive than shroud.
I run Cradle in my 3 color version. While it isn't as essential as in the Vial version, it's nice to have when you need a broken amount of mana. Sigarda is powerful, but still expensive. Thrun is nice as well, but suffers alot once your opponent has 4/5 Gofys or something equally big.

Thrun, Sigarda and MotWH have all advantages and disadvantages. The question is which one fits which deck type and which meta the best?

[Pans-Advocate]

I have been fooling around with a GWB version of M@verick's Vial build, and it feels pretty powerful. The individual card quality is quite high and the deck has strong draws against almost every deck in the format. Still, I think a lot of the reason why I like the deck is confirmation bias and soft testing. I honestly have no idea how it would fare in a truly competitive environment, because I haven't actually played any sanctioned matches with it yet.

Here's the current list:

1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Lingering Souls
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

The sideboard feels all over the place and is probably not even close to as good as it can be. I'm finding myself without a board plan for matchups here and there. But the maindeck feels solid and when I open on curve it feels very strong.

Has anyone else tried this and found inherent weaknesses in the concept?

[AlbyLegacy]

Some versions of Nic Fit ran Ulvenwald Tracker. I wonder if that would be a better GSZ target if you just need a green Grim Lavamancer? Of course, it does not give the same board presence, but it's always fun to make a creature fight your Knight :)

yea. I seen that card in some maverick decks as well. there is just so many ways to go with this deck.

[AlbyLegacy]

I have been fooling around with a GWB version of M@verick's Vial build, and it feels pretty powerful. The individual card quality is quite high and the deck has strong draws against almost every deck in the format. Still, I think a lot of the reason why I like the deck is confirmation bias and soft testing. I honestly have no idea how it would fare in a truly competitive environment, because I haven't actually played any sanctioned matches with it yet.

Here's the current list:

1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Lingering Souls
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

The sideboard feels all over the place and is probably not even close to as good as it can be. I'm finding myself without a board plan for matchups here and there. But the maindeck feels solid and when I open on curve it feels very strong.

Has anyone else tried this and found inherent weaknesses in the concept?


this looks more like a junk deck then Maverick deck. I should try vial in my GW maverick build.

[Barook]

@Pans-Advocate: I would definitely run a third equipment to prevent SFMs from blanking early. You also lack Gaea's Cradle which I found to be essential with the equipment plan.

And I don't think Vial is worth losing GSZ when you don't even run Wayfarer.

[Fatal]

And I don't think Vial is worth losing GSZ when you don't even run Wayfarer.

This. Vial build is so strong bacause of this little dude, also Scryb Ranger is cut which has enough synergy with all the build which M@verick bring to perfection. If I would change anything there I would just change few hierarchs with Deadrite Shamans and probably some sb slots adopted to third color. You cut a lot of functional lands which was also stength of that build, now you just have Vial Junk which have more dead draws (for example vial in middle/late game). If you still keep that build I suggest third equipment - Sword of Light and Shadow - running 4 Dark Confidants and Thoughtsieze needs a lot of lifelink to face any aggro deck.

[Barook]

Some observations made today regarding MotWH in completely unrelated match-ups:

- 5 mana is already a stretch to reach. 6 mana for Sigarda seems unrealistic in a reasonable time frame.

- He blows against decks packing Bolts - but that was kinda expected.

[AlbyLegacy]

Some observations made today regarding MotWH in completely unrelated match-ups:

- 5 mana is already a stretch to reach. 6 mana for Sigarda seems unrealistic in a reasonable time frame.

- He blows against decks packing Bolts - but that was kinda expected.

what deck was it?

[Barook]

what deck was it?
Various decks without significance, e.g. UR Landstill.

[Artlee]

Various decks without significance, e.g. UR Landstill.

Kind of unrelated, but I assume you met xxShockWavexx, right?

[Barook]

Kind of unrelated, but I assume you met xxShockWavexx, right?
IIrc, I don' think it was him.

My general observation so far is that he's a very expensive lightning rod against any decks that packs targeted removal which can kill him. And that would the most decks in the format.

I'm not sure if Thrun would be overall a better solution since he still dies like a bitch to Liliana. Has anybody plastesting data regarding him?

[ironclad8690]

IIrc, I don' think it was him.

My general observation so far is that he's a very expensive lightning rod against any decks that packs targeted removal which can kill him. And that would the most decks in the format.

I'm not sure if Thrun would be overall a better solution since he still dies like a bitch to Liliana. Has anybody plastesting data regarding him?

Thrun is great in the sideboard. Vs control decks you can put him in in place of stp and vs aggro you can replace a thalia/teeg with him. When it comes to liliana, if they are ticking up and your board is clear you have probably lost that game anyways. Mirran crusaders are good vs any deck running her.

[Megadeus]

By himself thrun dies to Lily, but you usually have more than one creature on the board, and if nothing else, surprise,dryad arbor off of a fetch land, saves Lily

[Barook]

Thrun is great in the sideboard. Vs control decks you can put him in in place of stp and vs aggro you can replace a thalia/teeg with him. When it comes to liliana, if they are ticking up and your board is clear you have probably lost that game anyways. Mirran crusaders are good vs any deck running her.
Yes, Mirran Crusaders are great, especially because they're immune to AD and can punch through BUG's entire creature base (among other things), but at least for the 3-colored version, :1::w::w: seems harsh and he competes with KotR for the 3cc slot without being tutorable or having land search utility.

[test1985]

I have been using 2x mirran crusaders mb in my GW build and it wins me games almost immediately. My meta is more BGx. I replaced my 2x Aven Mindcensor for it.

Also, since my Meta is BGx and a bit of rug/patriot, i also have loxodon smiters sb. All in all, smiters are threats not to be taken lightly.

I have also been testing out imposing sovereign as sb against sneak show and elves. I'm still trying it out. Will post more data after a few weeks.

[TiltingKitty]

I fail to see how Imposing Sovereign actually helps the Sneak Show matchup, as opposed to more general-purpose cards like O-Ring. What are the odds that you can actually kill them during that 1-turn delay?

[Barook]

I fail to see how Imposing Sovereign actually helps the Sneak Show matchup, as opposed to more general-purpose cards like O-Ring. What are the odds that you can actually kill them during that 1-turn delay?
Can't they just sneak it in at the end of your turn, untap and still ruin you on their turn?

Mirran Crusaders sound like fun in a GW build with Hierarchs/Pridemages for lots of exalted triggers.

[Koby]

Can't they just sneak it in at the end of your turn, untap and still ruin you on their turn?

Mirran Crusaders sound like fun in a GW build with Hierarchs/Pridemages for lots of exalted triggers.

Or even just Jitte/SoLS equipped. That's a lot of triggers that kill your opponent.

[Barook]

Or even just Jitte/SoLS equipped. That's a lot of triggers that kill your opponent.
I think you're talking about SoFA. Interestingly enough, SoWaP doesn't only make him removal-proof against about just anything minus JMS, he also instagibs opponents with 6 or more cards in hand (less cards when they have less life).

Elspeth makes him an evasive two turn clock as well.

[Megadeus]

To be fair a decently sized knight is probably just better in most cases than crusader. Though running crusader does make RIP a bit better out of the board

[Koby]

I think you're talking about SoFA. Interestingly enough, SoWaP doesn't only make him removal-proof against about just anything minus JMS, he also instagibs opponents with 6 or more cards in hand (less cards when they have less life).

Elspeth makes him an evasive two turn clock as well.

Any sword helps really. Jitte does make him lethal after one swing: Deal 2 (2 counters, pump?) Deal 6. Next turn, deal 6, then 10. The +2/+2 bonus is often good enough, as it's going to deal 8 damage each turn with a non-marginal benefit.

[TiltingKitty]

Mirran Crusaders sound like fun in a GW build with Hierarchs/Pridemages for lots of exalted triggers.

Mirran Crusader is certifiably a boss. The problem is the 1WW, which is like the worst mana cost ever (though at least he can't be Decay'd).

[Barook]

To be fair a decently sized knight is probably just better in most cases than crusader. Though running crusader does make RIP a bit better out of the board
Enemy DRS that are active are a far bigger issue for KotR than running RiP.

[Ayiluss]

Any thoughts about Mirran Crusader in GWb aka Dark Maverick? Is it worth or is it just too hard to cast him (even with Cavern of Souls)?

[Koby]

Any thoughts about Mirran Crusader in GWb aka Dark Maverick? Is it worth or is it just too hard to cast him (even with Cavern of Souls)?

Ideally the manabase is built to be able to cast him; and fetching should be done to maximize your options. It doesn't seem like a stretch to accommodate Mirran Crusader even in GWb builds.

[Barook]

Any thoughts about Mirran Crusader in GWb aka Dark Maverick? Is it worth or is it just too hard to cast him (even with Cavern of Souls)?
I agree with Koby.

The manabase can be build to cast him. It's rather a issue what to sacrifice space for since the 3cc slot is getting crowded. KotR has utility, is easier to cast and a pretty decent MD counter to S&T Emrakul because he can just fetch Karakas and laugh at their misery.

A straight GW build probably has more ways to synergize with him (more exalted creatures, etc) as well than Dark Maverick. But it all is really build-dependant.

Maybe I'll try to brew something.

Edit: Here's a rather unpolished list. Most likely needs to cut some corners to make some room for Thalias to get at least some MD disruption going (since it's mostly the list I'm using minus discard and slight modifications).

4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith

4 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine

[ironclad8690]

I fail to see how Imposing Sovereign actually helps the Sneak Show matchup, as opposed to more general-purpose cards like O-Ring. What are the odds that you can actually kill them during that 1-turn delay?

Sneak makes them sac it at end of turn, so even if they sneak it in at the end of their turn, they still have to sac at the end of your turn.

[Megadeus]

I'm pretty sure it triggers at the beginning of the end step. So eot too sneak it into play and it UN taps then can attack

[ironclad8690]

I'm pretty sure it triggers at the beginning of the end step. So eot too sneak it into play and it UN taps then can attack

Oh, nevermind my comment. that was dumb.

[slikwilly]

I have picked up Vial Maverick again and plan on running it for a while as it is very fun. My meta is mostly fair so not too worried about combo. Last night was my first time running the deck and in truly insane fashion vial decks were everywhere:
My Mav deck
2 Goblins
Merfolk
D&T

This was out of 15 players. This never happens.

Anyway, I played one of the Goblins decks and he DEMOLISHED me. What should I be boarding against that? Thinking Dueling Grounds, but no clue beyond that. Should I be mulling to a plowshares so I can answer Lackey? G2 I was on the play and kept w/ a Thalia. He played T1 Lackey, then T2 cycled an Incinerator to kill my Thalia on the way to steamrolling me.

Would GSZ be a better call in a meta like this. If we end up heavy on vials then the mana denial plan of wasting them out is not so good.

Also wouldn't mind any advice on beating 4 color loam. I drew with that.

[Barook]

I have picked up Vial Maverick again and plan on running it for a while as it is very fun. My meta is mostly fair so not too worried about combo. Last night was my first time running the deck and in truly insane fashion vial decks were everywhere:
My Mav deck
2 Goblins
Merfolk
D&T

This was out of 15 players. This never happens.

Anyway, I played one of the Goblins decks and he DEMOLISHED me. What should I be boarding against that? Thinking Dueling Grounds, but no clue beyond that. Should I be mulling to a plowshares so I can answer Lackey? G2 I was on the play and kept w/ a Thalia. He played T1 Lackey, then T2 cycled an Incinerator to kill my Thalia on the way to steamrolling me.

Would GSZ be a better call in a meta like this. If we end up heavy on vials then the mana denial plan of wasting them out is not so good.

Also wouldn't mind any advice on beating 4 color loam. I drew with that.
I don't think Vial Maverick is positioned well in the current metagame, that's why I switched to Black Maverick.

If you run DRS, you have another viable answer to T1 Lackey since he can block him like a boss.

I can imagine that DRS + Ooze + GSZ should help in the Loam match-up.

[nicoleptik]

[...]Here's a rather unpolished list. Most likely needs to cut some corners to make some room for Thalias to get at least some MD disruption going (since it's mostly the list I'm using minus discard and slight modifications).

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch


Maybe you should cut some dudes here, as 7 mana accelerants seems too much. I run a 3 DRS/ 1 Noble split in my Dark Mav and have no mana issue at all. But you should definitively make room for Thalia as she is a MVP in this deck.

[slikwilly]

I don't think Vial Maverick is positioned well in the current metagame, that's why I switched to Black Maverick.

If you run DRS, you have another viable answer to T1 Lackey since he can block him like a boss.

I can imagine that DRS + Ooze + GSZ should help in the Loam match-up.

My meta is very fair. Most weeks we get around 15 players and only 1-2 are on combo. One TES, one ANT. The black splash is intended to improve the combo match-up, right? If that's the case, it doesn't get me much. Many of the decks don't get punished by Wasteland as much as I'd like though, so maybe moving away from Vial (and Wayfarer) makes sense for that reason.

DRS does seem like a good add, though BoP has been a rock star carrying swords and Jittes for me in my limited play so far.

[AlbyLegacy]

OK question. I was playing a friend. I activated knight of the reliquary and he stifles it. In repose I mother of rune my knight pro blue. But from my understanding stifle still counters the ability?

[Barook]

OK question. I was playing a friend. I activated knight of the reliquary and he stifles it. In repose I mother of rune my knight pro blue. But from my understanding stifle still counters the ability?
Yes, because the ability is the target, not the Knight itself

@slikwilly: Maybe Punishing Maverick is a better fit for your meta?

[AlbyLegacy]

Yes, because the ability is the target, not the Knight itself

@slikwilly: Maybe Punishing Maverick is a better fit for your meta?

thank you.

[dcosiem]

Hello people. I just want some critique. I've been trying to build bant since I got enough cards to do it. This is what I came up with. It feels like you're playing Maverick but with Brainstorm and Ponder which feels like orgasm.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Ponder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Militant
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Mother of Runes
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

[Barook]

Hello people. I just want some critique. I've been trying to build bant since I got enough cards to do it. This is what I came up with. It feels like you're playing Maverick but with Brainstorm and Ponder which feels like orgasm.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Ponder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Militant
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Mother of Runes
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
What are you trying to accomplish here? Beating combo post-board? The Sb looks kinda terrible.

If you run Geist, I would definitely try a thrid equipment in the MD.

Rhox War Monk as a GSZ target against aggro might be nice.

[ThediscoPower]

Hello people. I just want some critique. I've been trying to build bant since I got enough cards to do it. This is what I came up with. It feels like you're playing Maverick but with Brainstorm and Ponder which feels like orgasm.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Ponder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Militant
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Mother of Runes
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

so how do you sideboard against combo already? Or, more accurately, what 13 cards are you sideding out for those matchup? And I assume that you are bringing the whole side against show and tell? It seems totally overboard to me, to the point where I would just play bant at that point, and maindeck counterspells, play jace TMS.

[dcosiem]

The deck is design is more designed to beat fair game controls like: Esper, Esper Deathblade, Rug, Jund, and Shardless Agent But. I guess I would have to say if you're playing against combo decks, you're going to lose probably in the first game. Game 2 gets better with counter spells. The whole idea is to put people in :eek: if they are playing any of the decks i mentioned above. The idea of playing Jace was it was too hard to produce double blue when most spells are g/w variant. I thought about Rhox War Monk, but Geist had replaced Jace when I first started building this deck. Exalted on Geist is really cool.

[useL]

There's a BANT-thread on MTGsource already, your post belongs there probably. Oh, and theres a reason why it's four pages long, cause the blue splash is terrible =(

[dcosiem]

There's a BANT-thread on MTGsource already, your post belongs there probably. Oh, and theres a reason why it's four pages long, cause the blue splash is terrible =(

Yea, i guess i have to agree.

[ThediscoPower]

The deck is design is more designed to beat fair game controls like: Esper, Esper Deathblade, Rug, Jund, and Shardless Agent But. I guess I would have to say if you're playing against combo decks, you're going to lose probably in the first game. Game 2 gets better with counter spells. The whole idea is to put people in :eek: if they are playing any of the decks i mentioned above. The idea of playing Jace was it was too hard to produce double blue when most spells are g/w variant. I thought about Rhox War Monk, but Geist had replaced Jace when I first started building this deck. Exalted on Geist is really cool.

too hard to produce double blue? you are playing exactly the same manabase as the normal bant decks (well, they play 23 lands usually with one not producing mana, when you are playing 21 with 1 not producing mana and craddle which only produces mana with creatures on board, however that's another point), the point being that you should be able to power double blue rather easily. however you probably should up the number of lands to 22-23, and I still think that your sideboard isn't that good, and that you are bringing way more cards that you can take out.

[Fatal]

Just made top8 on GP Warsaw side event with Punishing Dark Maverick :].

Record 4-1-1

quick report:

the list:

1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Punishing Fire
1 Batterskull
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Life from the Loam
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Bayou
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives


Played 6 rounds:

Round 1: D&T

Game 1 - I keep hand without stp to his mom which dominate the game he won the roll and steam roll me with mother (tried to scryb ranger with jitte to break the lock - he had Serra Avenger from vial) - good for me I didnt show him any splash

SB:

Plague on humans, Decay, Ancient Grudge, EE in
Gaddock, Ooze, Sylvan Safekeeper, Elspeth out

Game 2 & 3 - I just steamroll him with removal and hugh Ooze / Knight, equips.

Round 2: RUG he won the roll

Steamroll both games - nothing to say about it, just keep the hand with a lands. Game 2 he cast 3 submerges..

I sided:
2 Rebs, 1 EE, 1 Abrupt decay

side out:
1 Qasali, Elspeth, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (he is bad vs tempo decks - you need lands), Gaddock Teeg - I know he stops submerge but also stop my GSZ - Submerge is just removal you can play around it.

Round 3: Sneak Show 2-1 lose, I won the roll.

That MU is though probably Pithing Needle would help:
Game 1 I... won the race which was quite surprising - fast KotR steal the match.

SB:
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Red Elemental Blast

out:
4 STP - if you have to stp Grisel you are dead anyway.
1 Elspeth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper - most sneak lists uses pyrocasm which is why he is useless vs them.

I made quite a big mistake in game 2 which cost me a game - I fetched wrong which mean he Blood Moon me - which stops me playing my Gaddock (draw him), then Sneak -> Emrakul.

Game 3 Was a punishment for that mistake - I had very good board position with wastelock next turn Gaddock (Mom active) and Reb as a answer to counter - He has very tiny window - had 4 cards - he needed Sol land, Petal, Sneak, Emrakul (I was on 15 after I draw extra card from Library). He had all of them, dies from Spagetti Monster..


Round 4: RUG
Same as games in round 5 - Except he was my buddy which was very unlucky for him. Ended both games with Giant KotRs on table.

Round 5: BUG Shardless he win the roll
it is a though MU - but I know the key is to survive to active Punishing Fire to deal with all the 2/2 Cascade dudes/Strix, Shamans and Planeswalkers - I didnt draw any KotR/GSZ/Grove - sad Panda - game 1 was very long since I develop quite fast Elspeth which negate his advantage from 3 Visions - after all that time I drew my first StP but It was really too late - he kill me with 3 goyfs (had batterskull / and some dude punishes active but had to sacrafice Mom activation to kill the jace though the Strix. at the end he found single Pulse which deals with Elspeth and the we go to game 2. Which was in about 3 minutes I steam roll him with Punishing Fires and Active KotR wasteland canon he ended game with empty board.

Round 6: rANT - with Burning Wishes and Cabal Rituals

Game 1: This was really strange game - he win the roll and started basic swamp with thoughtseize - and took my gaddock - mean storm. But that was all spells which he cast all game (no I didnt waste basic swamp XD), he also had island - probably drawing very poor. Dies in turn 6 - really strange game that I was for a moment not sure it was a storm.

SB:
2 Cabal Therapy to have next attack angle - hand.
2 MBT vs fast kills
2 Surgical Exctration it helps really
3 Red Elemental Blast vs Bounce/Brainstorms
1 Engineered Explosives vs EtW
1 E. Plague vs EtW

4 StP
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Elspeth
1 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam - he show me enough basics :)

Game 2: I died turn 2 -I didnt had answer he therapy me after probe, he win via Ad N from hand with 2 darks,he took cards and move his lives down to 3.

Game 3 That was really strange end - I win via Surgical the Infernal Tutor and ... Jitte - I overload his possible tendrils and keep his GY clean - his life was enough low that any ad N would kill him.


After all I would probably change 1 Cabal Therapy, maybe 1 Red Elemental blast for 2 Needles vs Sneak - but I really like the blast - Maybe other slot. Still don't know all sideboard was useful.

[dcosiem]

Alright, enough of bant. Let's talk about Dark Maverick. Here's my list. I need some critique. I plan on taking this to SCG:Baltimore in 2 weeks. Ideally, I wouldn't play this deck at SCG because I would rather play some form of control deck. This deck seems to play fair all around. It is I believe a very powerful deck, and with the right pilot, someone can make top 8 SCG. I'm very new to this deck. I usually play Death and Taxes and Sneak Attack as my main decks. I've been practicing this deck for the last 2 days. Here's my record so far with it.

dark maverick

2-0 dredge
2-0 lands
2-0 rwu punishing
0-2 ant
2-0 rug
1-2 shardless agent
0-2 elves
1-2 reanimator
2-0 uw miracles
0-2 jund
0-2 DEathblade
1-0 4 color control
2-0 dark depths
0-2 esper
2-0 goblins

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

So how can i improve my deathblade, esperblade, jund, ant, and elves match-ups? Any suggestion?

[dcosiem]

Cavern is actually underwhelming because I'm run 3 colors and too many spread creature types.

For now, I'm going with the 4th Savannah. I'm not a fan of the basic swamp since the deck isn't that black-intensive and it might hinder my actual spells if I have it in my opening seven.

MD Bog might be a possibility. Although 4 DRS + Ooze + GSZ give the deck already plenty of ways to attack the GY MD. Although it would open up a SB slot, which might be actually interesting.

To go back to the PW discussion: Has anybody tried running both Elspeth and Garruk Relentless in the same 75? It would double the chance to draw a walker without screwing yourself when you draw the second one.

So, candidates for the "flex spot": Garruk, Choke, Thrun, Zealous Persecution or Sigarda, Host of Herons

Edit: Why are people only talking about LftL when considering a Wastelock? CoW should work as well, without spending mana all the time, and it can be E-tutored. Yes, it's vulnerable to AD and the likes, but LftL gets hit just as hard by GY hate.

So, I'm testing the 2 Plainswalkers in my list of 75, and it is simply amazing. When they hit, they are destructive. They make literally blow out my opponents. Also, I like the idea of Volrath's Stronghold. That is a good idea.

[Koby]

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

So how can i improve my deathblade, esperblade, jund, ant, and elves match-ups? Any suggestion?

For the first three, you would benefit greatly from Umezawa's Jitte. In fact, it's instrumental in winning every creature matchup bar none. ANT is more of a special case, and there you really need to maximize the Thalias and Wasteland and other hate-bears you run to stand a chance. It's still a hard matchup because they have a high potential of winning before you're set-up.

I would start by cutting some of the 4cc cards from the deck in favor of two Jitte.

[AlbyLegacy]

Question. Why does maverick not play fauna shaman?

[KobeBryan]

Question. Why does maverick not play fauna shaman?

you can if you want the loyal retainers/iona package.

[door]

Question. Why does maverick not play fauna shaman?

after deathrite shaman got printed, the elsh norn-loyal retainers combo got much worse.

So why does no one play Dark depths+thespian's stage? There was such a big discussion and eventually everyone decided it's not worth?

[Barook]

@dcosiem: You need Jitte.

Running MD Planeswalkers along with Thalia seems anti-synergestic. I've cut Thalia to run MD discard which makes the combo matchups a bit easier by taking key cards on T1, although it sucks if they bring in Leyline after sideboarding.


So why does no one play Dark depths+thespian's stage? There was such a big discussion and eventually everyone decided it's not worth?
Some people tested it and the consensus was that it isn't good enough.

[Fatal]

Having 2 more blanc land - along with 4 wastelands brings sometimes problematic with mana, also risk of sacraficing 2 lands to get karakas/stfiled is sometimes not worth. I can see only two MU where it would be very useful - Jund and BUG.

[ironclad8690]

Just made top8 on GP Warsaw side event with Punishing Dark Maverick :].

Record 4-1-1

quick report:

the list:

1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Punishing Fire
1 Batterskull
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Life from the Loam
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Bayou
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives


Played 6 rounds:

Round 1: D&T

Game 1 - I keep hand without stp to his mom which dominate the game he won the roll and steam roll me with mother (tried to scryb ranger with jitte to break the lock - he had Serra Avenger from vial) - good for me I didnt show him any splash

SB:

Plague on humans, Decay, Ancient Grudge, EE in
Gaddock, Ooze, Sylvan Safekeeper, Elspeth out

Game 2 & 3 - I just steamroll him with removal and hugh Ooze / Knight, equips.

Round 2: RUG he won the roll

Steamroll both games - nothing to say about it, just keep the hand with a lands. Game 2 he cast 3 submerges..

I sided:
2 Rebs, 1 EE, 1 Abrupt decay

side out:
1 Qasali, Elspeth, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper (he is bad vs tempo decks - you need lands), Gaddock Teeg - I know he stops submerge but also stop my GSZ - Submerge is just removal you can play around it.

Round 3: Sneak Show 2-1 lose, I won the roll.

That MU is though probably Pithing Needle would help:
Game 1 I... won the race which was quite surprising - fast KotR steal the match.

SB:
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Red Elemental Blast

out:
4 STP - if you have to stp Grisel you are dead anyway.
1 Elspeth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Safekeeper - most sneak lists uses pyrocasm which is why he is useless vs them.

I made quite a big mistake in game 2 which cost me a game - I fetched wrong which mean he Blood Moon me - which stops me playing my Gaddock (draw him), then Sneak -> Emrakul.

Game 3 Was a punishment for that mistake - I had very good board position with wastelock next turn Gaddock (Mom active) and Reb as a answer to counter - He has very tiny window - had 4 cards - he needed Sol land, Petal, Sneak, Emrakul (I was on 15 after I draw extra card from Library). He had all of them, dies from Spagetti Monster..


Round 4: RUG
Same as games in round 5 - Except he was my buddy which was very unlucky for him. Ended both games with Giant KotRs on table.

Round 5: BUG Shardless he win the roll
it is a though MU - but I know the key is to survive to active Punishing Fire to deal with all the 2/2 Cascade dudes/Strix, Shamans and Planeswalkers - I didnt draw any KotR/GSZ/Grove - sad Panda - game 1 was very long since I develop quite fast Elspeth which negate his advantage from 3 Visions - after all that time I drew my first StP but It was really too late - he kill me with 3 goyfs (had batterskull / and some dude punishes active but had to sacrafice Mom activation to kill the jace though the Strix. at the end he found single Pulse which deals with Elspeth and the we go to game 2. Which was in about 3 minutes I steam roll him with Punishing Fires and Active KotR wasteland canon he ended game with empty board.

Round 6: rANT - with Burning Wishes and Cabal Rituals

Game 1: This was really strange game - he win the roll and started basic swamp with thoughtseize - and took my gaddock - mean storm. But that was all spells which he cast all game (no I didnt waste basic swamp XD), he also had island - probably drawing very poor. Dies in turn 6 - really strange game that I was for a moment not sure it was a storm.

SB:
2 Cabal Therapy to have next attack angle - hand.
2 MBT vs fast kills
2 Surgical Exctration it helps really
3 Red Elemental Blast vs Bounce/Brainstorms
1 Engineered Explosives vs EtW
1 E. Plague vs EtW

4 StP
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Elspeth
1 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam - he show me enough basics :)

Game 2: I died turn 2 -I didnt had answer he therapy me after probe, he win via Ad N from hand with 2 darks,he took cards and move his lives down to 3.

Game 3 That was really strange end - I win via Surgical the Infernal Tutor and ... Jitte - I overload his possible tendrils and keep his GY clean - his life was enough low that any ad N would kill him.


After all I would probably change 1 Cabal Therapy, maybe 1 Red Elemental blast for 2 Needles vs Sneak - but I really like the blast - Maybe other slot. Still don't know all sideboard was useful.

How was maindeck Bog for you?

[dcosiem]

@Koby and Barook

Volrath's stronghold isn't that great. It was ok when I was testing it. I need scroll Rack to make it more useful. The only thing I don't like about Jitte is it's difficult to draw it. You need Stoneforge Mystic. I hate running Stoneforge Mystic because I just don't think I need her as a win con. Discard is nice, but I think I want more creatures in my deck to have a stronger board presence. Having Discard doesn't always necessarily work unless you have a lot. Even then, it is a combination of many other things that will help you beat combo. E. G., Large clock. I just don't think I need Jitte to deal with creatures. Im running 2 Abrupt Decays, 4 Swords and 1 Maelstrom Pulse. I believe I should be resilient against a lot of things.

[Justin]

after deathrite shaman got printed, the elsh norn-loyal retainers combo got much worse.

So why does no one play Dark depths+thespian's stage? There was such a big discussion and eventually everyone decided it's not worth?

Depths/Stage can be amazing in Maverick, but Wasteland is the biggest impediment. It's worth running in a Wasteland-lite meta, but how often do you find that in Legacy?

[apple713]

after deathrite shaman got printed, the elsh norn-loyal retainers combo got much worse.

So why does no one play Dark depths+thespian's stage? There was such a big discussion and eventually everyone decided it's not worth?

I do but its more junk i think. Ill link you to my list when i post it

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19432-Deck-The-Rock&p=743240&viewfull=1#post743240

[Koby]

@Koby and Barook

Volrath's stronghold isn't that great. It was ok when I was testing it. I need scroll Rack to make it more useful. The only thing I don't like about Jitte is it's difficult to draw it. You need Stoneforge Mystic. I hate running Stoneforge Mystic because I just don't think I need her as a win con. Discard is nice, but I think I want more creatures in my deck to have a stronger board presence. Having Discard doesn't always necessarily work unless you have a lot. Even then, it is a combination of many other things that will help you beat combo. E. G., Large clock. I just don't think I need Jitte to deal with creatures. Im running 2 Abrupt Decays, 4 Swords and 1 Maelstrom Pulse. I believe I should be resilient against a lot of things.

Never said anything about Volrath's Stronghold. Anyway...

I've ran 2 Jitte without SFM, and I've also included 1 SFM to help increase its density. Paying 1-3 mana to deal with 1/1 and 1/2 creatures leaves a bad aftertaste. Jitte helps in these situations. It's the best strategy for beating Elves too, since it gives you repeated removal for their entire team.

When you say "I just don't think I need Jitte to deal with creatures." I get the impression that you aren't in the Aggro/Mid-range mind-set yet. Try some Jitte out, test these matchups, then decide. More spot removal is not the key, just like you identified. More spells = bad vs creatures.

[Barook]

Never said anything about Volrath's Stronghold. Anyway...

I've ran 2 Jitte without SFM, and I've also included 1 SFM to help increase its density. Paying 1-3 mana to deal with 1/1 and 1/2 creatures leaves a bad aftertaste. Jitte helps in these situations. It's the best strategy for beating Elves too, since it gives you repeated removal for their entire team.

When you say "I just don't think I need Jitte to deal with creatures." I get the impression that you aren't in the Aggro/Mid-range mind-set yet. Try some Jitte out, test these matchups, then decide. More spot removal is not the key, just like you identified. More spells = bad vs creatures.
I agree with Koby - spells alone won't save you against creature decks. Jitte is excellent and you better have a very good reason not to run it.

Jitte can be amazing against Elves, but they also have outs -be it GSZ for artifact removal or just bouncing blockers to prevent Jitte from charging. One card I've found crucial against Elves was Grafdigger's Cage since it stops both NO and their GSZ. Mom + Canonist can be nice as well, but it doesn't stop NO. I like discard against them, as you can snatch away key cards like their Glimpse or NO to stall/brick them.

Volrath's Stronghold was only an idea, not a suggestion, since I didn't test it. I fail to see why one would need Scroll Rack, though.

[Fatal]

@ironclad8690
How was maindeck Bog for you?

Very good vs all goyf/Goose decks where you have to desize them and Ooze didnt came, It also helps against opponent Shamans, but the most important thing was day before when I hard tested vs Mirror (many Maverick versions) and Dredge - it was MVP, you could kill opponent KotRs just using your own KotR and PF, It shut down also fuel in Past in Flames. Like you see I'm running quite a lot of lands so didn't have problems with mana.

I also use them as second black source from land which I didn't want to have more duals (already have 5 like you see) so I pick up functional land which gives black mana.

[AlbyLegacy]

OK. I play tested VS Death and Taxes. Won a couple of games by luck, but that deck Crushes Maverick. Any pointers how to beat Death and Taxes?

[Mister M.]

OK. I play tested VS Death and Taxes. Won a couple of games by luck, but that deck Crushes Maverick. Any pointers how to beat Death and Taxes?

Really? My experiences were quite the opposite. Especially, postboard. Zealous Persecution and Pithing Needle crush Death and Taxes. The additional Jitte out of the board to mop up.

[Koby]

OK. I play tested VS Death and Taxes. Won a couple of games by luck, but that deck Crushes Maverick. Any pointers how to beat Death and Taxes?

Get Mom active. Keep Wastelands for Karakas. Attempt to keep Jitte on board. Revoker is going to be hard to deal with, so thats your primary focus of removal after Mother of Runes.

[AlbyLegacy]

Really? My experiences were quite the opposite. Especially, postboard. Zealous Persecution and Pithing Needle crush Death and Taxes. The additional Jitte out of the board to mop up.

you have a deck list. my maverick deck is GW.

[AlbyLegacy]

Get Mom active. Keep Wastelands for Karakas. Attempt to keep Jitte on board. Revoker is going to be hard to deal with, so thats your primary focus of removal after Mother of Runes.

yea I noticed revolker is a pain, but so is aven mindcensor and mirrian C.

[AlbyLegacy]

I am starting to think that dark maverick might be the way to go. you just get much more options post and side.

[Machahiko]

D&T is a tough matchup which usually is resolved around these things:

1. Who gets an active mom.
2. Who gets jitte online.
3. Who gets an flyer stick to the board.

If the opposing player has more flyers than you (Serra Avenger, Mindcensors) and you have 1-of scryb ranger, you might be boned. That's why I've always liked Aven Mindcensor.

[Mister M.]

you have a deck list. my maverick deck is GW.

Mine is Dark Maverick and looks like this (with constant minor changes):

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

[AlbyLegacy]

D&T is a tough matchup which usually is resolved around these things:

1. Who gets an active mom.
2. Who gets jitte online.
3. Who gets an flyer stick to the board.

If the opposing player has more flyers than you (Serra Avenger, Mindcensors) and you have 1-of scryb ranger, you might be boned. That's why I've always liked Aven Mindcensor.

yea. with their 4 stoneforge they can get the jitte faster . I play mindcensor in my deck, but he would just pro white or green get counters and kill off my mom. revolker would just shut off my knight or any other creature I need at the time. mirrian just smashes me lol. it sucked

[AlbyLegacy]

Mine is Dark Maverick and looks like this (with constant minor changes):

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

thanks. just trying to get a idea on how to start dark maverick.

[Barook]

@AlbyLegacy: Sunyveil (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5798552) has a pretty good grasp of Dark Maverick. I run one of his old lists with slight modifications, although the changes to his current list like running a third SFM and Sword of Feast and Famine to combat BUG (and maybe Jund) make sense.

[AlbyLegacy]

@AlbyLegacy: Sunyveil (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/5798552) has a pretty good grasp of Dark Maverick. I run one of his old lists with slight modifications, although the changes to his current list like running a third SFM and Sword of Feast and Famine to combat BUG (and maybe Jund) make sense.

Thanks. Deck looks good. No main Thalia do to the thoughtsieze? Thalia has always been so good for me. Any reason why not play her main?

[Koby]

I've put my Maverick back together (had to wait on the 2nd Korean Scavenging Ooze is why :laugh:), here's my list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of ith
1 Dryad Arbor
/61 cards

SB / 14 cards
meta slots based including
O-ring
Path to Exile
Elspeth / Thrun / Sigarda
Life from the Loam
Anti-storm
Anti-GY
etc

I'm trying out a new main/SB strategy of 61/14 since I've always considered Maze of Ith the 61st card. In cases of going against combo, I can easily board it out and remain at 60 making it more likely to see hate cards. Against fair decks, I can keep the 61 card configuration due to the high tutor count and still have good answers.

[Fatal]

The easiest way to deal with D&T is just Punishing Splash - until they land RiP and even after you just kill all creatures, also E.Plague on Humans (yes if you splashing also black) its worth if you don't run Thalia or Zelous Perseciution can give and edge over them.

[AlbyLegacy]

The easiest way to deal with D&T is just Punishing Splash - until they land RiP and even after you just kill all creatures, also E.Plague on Humans (yes if you splashing also black) its worth if you don't run Thalia or Zelous Perseciution can give and edge over them.

Yea. I think I might go with the black splash. Its just feels more versatile.

[dcosiem]

@koby I think the regular noble Hiearch build is not a top tier deck without the black splash because in a control meta as of today, Deathrite Shaman creates a quick clock for anyone who is facing him. The black splash is definitely the way to go if someone is going to pick up this deck and take it to a big tourney.

[Barook]

@Koby: I would definitely run a MD Teeg as GSZ target.

That said, I do think that DRS is necessary in the current meta, even if it just comes down to battling opposing DRS. This card is just a silly powerhouse. A sole Linvala, Keeper of Silence isn't going to change that.

Edit: I'm also kinda interested in Punishing Dark Maverick, as Fatal put it.

Dark Maverick has the better combo match-up thanks to discard, while Punishing Maverick is better against creature swarms. Combining them to deal with the weaknesses of both sounds intriguing, although the required mana base probably needs to be extremely greedy.

Basically, a MD Punishing Maverick with strong, black transformational sideboard for discard (most likely a combination of Thoughtseize and Therapy), AD and E-Plague. Since the decks you bring in discard normally don't run Wasteland, the mana base could work out.

@Fatal: What's your experience with your variant so far? How did Life from the Loam work for you? Is there a reason why you didn't run Sword of Feast and Famine along your 3 SFM? Connecting with a SoFF powers up your Oozes and Punishing Fire engine quite a bit.

[Sunyveil]

Here's my latest build of Dark Maverick:

Sunyveil (4-0)
Legacy Daily #5798552 on 08/12/2013

Main Deck
60 cards

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
24 lands

2 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
22 creatures

1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
14 other spells

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb

Loving it thus far, 11 matches in and still undefeated. The biggest update is the increased Stoneforge package, which helps when games go long. I cut the hand disruption in half because I was drawing too much of it, but as of now I'm fine with the occasional discard spell. SoFaF is only in the list for its protection vs. Deathrite colors, because those decks are everywhere.

Master of the Wild Hunt :D my tech against Deathrite decks. Can't even be killed by Abrupt Decay!

I think the list is exactly where I want it for the current metagame, there aren't any changes I'd make atm.

Also, I stream Legacy when I have the chance, follow me at www.twitch.tv/Sunyveil :D

[Barook]

I just threw a Dark Punisher list together by making a hybrid between Sunyveil's and Fatal's list. It's just a rough draw without testing, so certain things need to be hammered out/tweeked. But I think it's a good starting point:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[Fatal]

@Koby: I would definitely run a MD Teeg as GSZ target.

That said, I do think that DRS is necessary in the current meta, even if it just comes down to battling opposing DRS. This card is just a silly powerhouse. A sole Linvala, Keeper of Silence isn't going to change that.

Edit: I'm also kinda interested in Punishing Dark Maverick, as Fatal put it.

Dark Maverick has the better combo match-up thanks to discard, while Punishing Maverick is better against creature swarms. Combining them to deal with the weaknesses of both sounds intriguing, although the required mana base probably needs to be extremely greedy.

Basically, a MD Punishing Maverick with strong, black transformational sideboard for discard (most likely a combination of Thoughtseize and Therapy), AD and E-Plague. Since the decks you bring in discard normally don't run Wasteland, the mana base could work out.

@Fatal: What's your experience with your variant so far? How did Life from the Loam work for you? Is there a reason why you didn't run Sword of Feast and Famine along your 3 SFM? Connecting with a SoFF powers up your Oozes and Punishing Fire engine quite a bit.

As you said I like versality between MD heavy anti-creatures / middle range deck with Punishing Fire and very strong SB options - personally I like much more Cabal Therapy since you don't loses to random cards in combo MU - you loses to That Card - so simple think which is That Card in current game stage and name it - if you miss - you don't lose, if you get it - you also don't lose - that how it works. - I also added 2 MBT against turn 1 combos since you also need to win game 3.

@about wastelands - Maverick is still second the most pernament mana source deck (after Elves) - you running 8 mana dorks (counting GSZ) so not playing for set of wastelands is in my opinion mistake - I would rather cut some cute lands like Maze of Ith or Canopy then wasteland - it just too damn important, for example:

Starting with Dork/dual and wasteing turn 2 with bringing a thread is probably the best way to win in fair MU - if he waste your dual - he just do it wrong since you just play a thread and waiting for his duals with your wasteland - simple resources war like Tempo RUG. Adding Turn 2 KotR which gives you every turn wastelands is probably what you always want.

@about equipments - I don't like SoFF since discarding most useless card from opponent hand for 5 mana risking removal is always not great in my eyes. It doesn't works good vs Decay - since he can just decay the Sword, Jitte is cheaper - sure it doesn't gives any disruption but gives a speed/life or/and - removal. Same for Batterskull - I run it bacause it just say - kill my 1/2 buddy or I get free thread.

@about life from the loam - I like this card MD for 2 reasons - wastelock with really big card advantage - like endless 1/1 dude which can't be decay'ed (Dryad Arbor :), suffling effect for library, resouce ending proof - thats all first reason. Second is it is an fastest engine to makes punishing fire going online. So why only single copy if its so good - you only need 1 of it, more over its not your basically line play - changing to control creature removal, with resource attraction can be gamebreaking for some decks (for example death & taxes).

[AlbyLegacy]

So here is what I came up with for the dack+ punishing version.


/ Deck: maverick (60)

// Lands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[AlbyLegacy]

I just threw a Dark Punisher list together by making a hybrid between Sunyveil's and Fatal's list. It's just a rough draw without testing, so certain things need to be hammered out/tweeked. But I think it's a good starting point:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


Great idea.

[Koby]

I just threw a Dark Punisher list together by making a hybrid between Sunyveil's and Fatal's list. It's just a rough draw without testing, so certain things need to be hammered out/tweeked. But I think it's a good starting point:


My head is spinning from all the 3-ofs. I need some coffee...

[Barook]

My head is spinning from all the 3-ofs. I need some coffee...
Either they're pretty good numbers (like SFM, Punishing Fire) or you can tutor for most stuff. Whether 4 Moms or a 3 Mom/1 Safekeeper split is better is up debate. As I said, it's just a rough, untested draw and changes are likely.

@AlbyLegacy: Running MD discard and AD along Punishing Fire seems extremely greedy.

[Tombstalker]

Since when does maverick need removal bad enough to dump thalia to the board for clunky PF?

[Barook]

Since when does maverick need removal bad enough to dump thalia to the board for clunky PF?
Since DRS is spreading in the format like cancer.

Thalia is pretty situational to downright bad in certain match-ups. Dumping her to the board can be quite justified.

[AlbyLegacy]

Either they're pretty good numbers (like SFM, Punishing Fire) or you can tutor for most stuff. Whether 4 Moms or a 3 Mom/1 Safekeeper split is better is up debate. As I said, it's just a rough, untested draw and changes are likely.

@AlbyLegacy: Running MD discard and AD along Punishing Fire seems extremely greedy.

Year it is greedy. I figured Jund does it. So might as well try it.

[Barook]

Year it is greedy. I figured Jund does it. So might as well try it.
Jund doesn't run white, though.

[AlbyLegacy]

Jund doesn't run white, though.

Oo year. I forgot about that. They also run Bob's.

[Ositosupe]

Hi guys, I have decided for evolving the deck with the black, wait for comments.


4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
3 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll


Thanks for all

[Barook]

Since I lack the Groves, Taiga and Plateau on MODO and don't want to drop money on it yet, I'm looking for some playtesting on Cockatrice since the general deck/player quality there is pretty poor.

The Dark Punishing Maverick build looks like it has potential. Having extra removal at hand is pretty handy in fair creature match-ups. Although the mana base indeed looks like a clusterfuck.

@Tombstalker: PF can also combat enemy Planeswalkers, which is pretty nice to have.

[AreYouSerious???]

... Yeah you guys. I'm probably just gonna sell my deck. I think its hilarious that this forum just got the recognition it always deserved; by becoming an established "G/W" Maverick build, and all of you start this GWB nonsense and yeah Thalia is freaking ridiculous considering you have to build part of your manabase around her ( the only damn reason why shes even in the deck is primarily because of what she does to OTHER deck builds) I'm sorry, I thought this was aggro Maverick, not defensive Maverick... Whatever I have much more to say, but its not worth it anyways.. Here's my build if it helps any of you:

4Knight of The Reliquary
4Mother of Runes
4Noble Hierarch
3Qasali Pridemage
3Stoneforge Mystic
3Aven Mindcensor
2Scavenging Ooze
2Scryb Ranger

2Umezawa's Jitte
1Sword of Light and Shadow

2Sylvan Library

4Swords to Plowshares

4Green Suns Zenith

2Elspeth, knight Errent

1Forest
1Plains
2Temple Garden
3Savannah
4Windswept Heath
3Horizon Canopy
3Wasteland
2Misty Rainforest
1Dryad Arbor

Any questions please ask... Ill try and help with my collective knowledge of the meta game and what not, but I don't have much faith in this deck anymore...:rolleyes:

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Nice temple gardens bro.

[bumgun]

Posting my updated list for suggestions/comments. Biggest change was removing Aven Mindcensors for a SFM package and adding the 4th Thalia to MD. I probably have the least amount of experience of any of you guys so any criticism is appreciated. I'll be taking this to a couple small local tournaments this weekend and potentially the open in Baltimore next week.

Main
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls

Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Linvala

Even though GWb may be the right direction, I'm mostly looking for tweaks on the standard GW until I pick up a couple bayous which wouldn't be in this upcoming week anyways.

[Barook]

I would like to discuss the new Theros spoiler:

Polukranos, World-Eater :2::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Hydra
X:g::g: Monstrosity X. (If this creature isn’t monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos.
5/5

It might be an upgrade to Master of the Wild Hunt - in the end, it comes down to immunity to Karakas vs immunity to Bolts. Polukranos could also do some insane things in builds with Cradle. Aside from killing a few dudes, it's realistically an 8/8 or 9/9 after pumping which trumps most of the creatures in the format.

EDIT: It's now back to XX:g: activation cost. If that's true, it's junk.

On another topic: (Artifact) recursion

I'm kinda annoyed that destroyed equipment is lost forever, e.g. SoFaF vs. BUG since it downright wins games. An Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold package might sound interesting since you can tutor for both, but the question whether or not those cards fit into the general game plan.


Even though GWb may be the right direction, I'm mostly looking for tweaks on the standard GW until I pick up a couple bayous which wouldn't be in this upcoming week anyways.
Fair enough, otherwise, I would have suggested DRS.

I would probably run SoFaF in the maindeck. I recently added it and I love it - good against GB/x decks, control and combo. There are also those nifty interactions, e.g. when equiping it to a Dryad Arbor to turn it into a creature with vigilance.

RiP is bad for you since it makes your Knights crappy.

In general, I would rather run an E-Tutor board to fish for silver bullets. That also opens up sideboard slots. Both Tormod's Crypt and Grafdigger's Cage are nice GY hate target and fulfill different purposes.

If you meta is BUG infested, Master of the Wild Hunt might be interesting for you as well since he kills DRS like a champ.

[AlbyLegacy]

Posting my updated list for suggestions/comments. Biggest change was removing Aven Mindcensors for a SFM package and adding the 4th Thalia to MD. I probably have the least amount of experience of any of you guys so any criticism is appreciated. I'll be taking this to a couple small local tournaments this weekend and potentially the open in Baltimore next week.

Main
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls

Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Linvala

Even though GWb may be the right direction, I'm mostly looking for tweaks on the standard GW until I pick up a couple bayous which wouldn't be in this upcoming week anyways.


I play GW too. Your deck looks similar to mine. I don't play stone forge. I play 2 mind censors 2 jittes and 1 thrun .

Thurn is a lot better then I expected. Try one out vs heavy removal decks. He's a beast. mind censor is good with 4 thalia becuase it gives you a heavy land disrupion style. 2 jittes becuase 9/10 times thats the equitment you want.

[AreYouSerious???]

Nice temple gardens bro.

Thanks. I need them just in case I get a Surgical Extraction played on my Savannahs. Surprisingly though, they don't come out as often because I'm usually able to kill my opponent in less turns than I would need to play them.. The opponents I can kill anyway

[AreYouSerious???]

Posting my updated list for suggestions/comments. Biggest change was removing Aven Mindcensors for a SFM package and adding the 4th Thalia to MD. I probably have the least amount of experience of any of you guys so any criticism is appreciated. I'll be taking this to a couple small local tournaments this weekend and potentially the open in Baltimore next week.

Main
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 GSZ
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls

Side
2 Choke
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Linvala

Even though GWb may be the right direction, I'm mostly looking for tweaks on the standard GW until I pick up a couple bayous which wouldn't be in this upcoming week anyways.

Don't run Thalia, It makes the deck look weak (which it isn't). I'm pretty sure that Karakas is there partly because of Thalia as well.. Jesus, Thalia is screwing this deck (Maverick) up one card at a time -_- .. Cant even cast GSZ correctly or your own STPs.. I also think that one more Sylvan Library wouldn't hurt (CA is important in an aggro/disrupt deck) One more Canopy too. People on here wouldn't believe it, but it works awesome with Sylvan :cool:

[AlbyLegacy]

Don't run Thalia, It makes the deck look weak (which it isn't). I'm pretty sure that Karakas is there partly because of Thalia as well.. Jesus, Thalia is screwing this deck (Maverick) up one card at a time -_- .. Cant even cast GSZ correctly or your own STPs.. I also think that one more Sylvan Library wouldn't hurt (CA is important in an aggro/disrupt deck) One more Canopy too. People on here wouldn't believe it, but it works awesome with Sylvan :cool:


Look here playa. Maverick needs Thalia its the only card that gives you a shot vs control decks , combo decks and some heavy removal aggro decks. The card is the only reason this deck can even have a fair shot vs most decks.

[HammerAndSickled]

So how exactly do you plan on beating any remotely competitive combo deck without Thalia? Did you notice that Maverick became competitive mostly because of Thalia making the deck not auto-Lose to Storm?

[Tombstalker]

YES what AYS says..just forget thalia even exists. She's bad very bad.. I would invite you to post in the DnT thread as well please :)

[ThediscoPower]

also, I'm pretty sure the Karakas isn't there because of Thalia. Actually, if you aren't running Karakas, you probably are doing something wrong.

[apple713]

I posted about thalia in a diff thread regarding her inclusion. Its relevant here.


@ Thalia, she is included strictly so I dont get blown out by combo decks. Since I can protect her with mother, that means that she'll not be answered easily by the other decks. The list of decks she affects is

High tide
ANT
TES
Belcher
ONMI-derp <----complete blow out if protected.
are there other combo's going on? enchantress....

S&T & other decks that cantrip, including rug, UR, miracles, UB tempo decks with stifle
Shardless (slows the cascade very minimally but still)

[Koby]

Hmm, seems the moronic index is high this weekend. Thalia is a pretty good reason to play both D&T and Maverick in a given metagame. Without her, I'd sooner play Vial Bant with Clique and Daze and FoWs.

As long as Legacy continues to be centered on efficient spells (StP, Brainstorm, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, etc) Thalia will be good. She's too damn good when paired with Wasteland against such decks.

Additionally, any argument with the premise that an opponent to Surgical Extractions your dual land is one that I reject and dismiss categorically. This is poor justification for including inferior lands in a two color deck. Play more basics or fetches instead. Actually, play more Wasteland first.

[AreYouSerious???]

Hmm, seems the moronic index is high this weekend. Thalia is a pretty good reason to play both D&T and Maverick in a given metagame. Without her, I'd sooner play Vial Bant with Clique and Daze and FoWs.

As long as Legacy continues to be centered on efficient spells (StP, Brainstorm, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, etc) Thalia will be good. She's too damn good when paired with Wasteland against such decks.

Additionally, any argument with the premise that an opponent to Surgical Extractions your dual land is one that I reject and dismiss categorically. This is poor justification for including inferior lands in a two color deck. Play more basics or fetches instead. Actually, play more Wasteland first.

Sorry Koby, but I'm gonna have to use your post as my whole reply thing considering there is a lot of individuals I have to respond to about my post. First off, I don't think anybody is seeing the bigger picture here, if your running cards like Thalia simply because of the prevalence of (how Koby puts it so adequately) "efficient" spells your are basically making up for the fact that, you yourself, don't have efficient spells. There is an expression that I could use here that would COMPLETELY fit Mavericks situation in the next couple of years and its that you can dress a pig up in a tuxedo, but when it comes to etiquette and manners, its still a pig! Using Thalia as the tuxedo and wrapping the pig (the decks that are already screwing up Mavericks build in order to win against certain decks; might I add that some of those decks are winnable simply because maverick is aggro) with it isn't going to make the lil bugger any more desirable.. Well, maybe :3 but that's in the literal sense. You Koby (in a sense) are exactly on the money with Mavericks problems, as long as legacy is centered around efficient spells, we creature/aggro based strategists are going to be hit HARD. That being said, would it not make sense to go with the flow of super-efficient spells and finally snatch us up some winnings and quite possibly some.. Earnings :cool: .. Oh and Koby, you have such a play used on you and come back to post your reaction (not having any dual mana base simply because of someones blatant arrogance would be quite a bitch to come back from) and like I said to all you devoted Maverick fans, if you need help I am more than willing to lend a keyboard ^_^

[AreYouSerious???]

... Yeah you guys. I'm probably just gonna sell my deck. I think its hilarious that this forum just got the recognition it always deserved; by becoming an established "G/W" Maverick build, and all of you start this GWB nonsense and yeah Thalia is freaking ridiculous considering you have to build part of your manabase around her ( the only damn reason why shes even in the deck is primarily because of what she does to OTHER deck builds) I'm sorry, I thought this was aggro Maverick, not defensive Maverick... Whatever I have much more to say, but its not worth it anyways.. Here's my build if it helps any of you:

4Knight of The Reliquary
4Mother of Runes
4Noble Hierarch
3Qasali Pridemage
3Stoneforge Mystic
3Aven Mindcensor
2Scavenging Ooze
2Scryb Ranger

2Umezawa's Jitte
1Sword of Light and Shadow

2Sylvan Library

4Swords to Plowshares

4Green Suns Zenith

2Elspeth, knight Errent

1Forest
1Plains
2Temple Garden
3Savannah
4Windswept Heath
3Horizon Canopy
3Wasteland
2Misty Rainforest
1Dryad Arbor

Any questions please ask... Ill try and help with my collective knowledge of the meta game and what not, but I don't have much faith in this deck anymore...:rolleyes:

SB:
3Pithing Needle
3Gaddock Teeg
1Bojuka Bog
Annnnd.. Help me out

[AreYouSerious???]

YES what AYS says..just forget thalia even exists. She's bad very bad.. I would invite you to post in the DnT thread as well please :)

Funny thing actually, I've never done any research on DnT :P . Let me look into it and I'll let you know what I find

[AlbyLegacy]

Sorry Koby, but I'm gonna have to use your post as my whole reply thing considering there is a lot of individuals I have to respond to about my post. First off, I don't think anybody is seeing the bigger picture here, if your running cards like Thalia simply because of the prevalence of (how Koby puts it so adequately) "efficient" spells your are basically making up for the fact that, you yourself, don't have efficient spells. There is an expression that I could use here that would COMPLETELY fit Mavericks situation in the next couple of years and its that you can dress a pig up in a tuxedo, but when it comes to etiquette and manners, its still a pig! Using Thalia as the tuxedo and wrapping the pig (the decks that are already screwing up Mavericks build in order to win against certain decks; might I add that some of those decks are winnable simply because maverick is aggro) with it isn't going to make the lil bugger any more desirable.. Well, maybe :3 but that's in the literal sense. You Koby (in a sense) are exactly on the money with Mavericks problems, as long as legacy is centered around efficient spells, we creature/aggro based strategists are going to be hit HARD. That being said, would it not make sense to go with the flow of super-efficient spells and finally snatch us up some winnings and quite possibly some.. Earnings :cool: .. Oh and Koby, you have such a play used on you and come back to post your reaction (not having any dual mana base simply because of someones blatant arrogance would be quite a bitch to come back from) and like I said to all you devoted Maverick fans, if you need help I am more than willing to lend a keyboard ^_^

Maverick is a midrange aggro deck. Meaning its a slow deck that wins mid game. Therefore vs other faster decks you can get ran over. The deck plays disructive cards like Thalia, mind censor , and teeg ect. To slow decks down so it can win mid late game. You need Thalia bro. Sorry

[test1985]

... Yeah you guys. I'm probably just gonna sell my deck. I think its hilarious that this forum just got the recognition it always deserved; by becoming an established "G/W" Maverick build, and all of you start this GWB nonsense and yeah Thalia is freaking ridiculous considering you have to build part of your manabase around her ( the only damn reason why shes even in the deck is primarily because of what she does to OTHER deck builds) I'm sorry, I thought this was aggro Maverick, not defensive Maverick... Whatever I have much more to say, but its not worth it anyways.. Here's my build if it helps any of you:

4Knight of The Reliquary
4Mother of Runes
4Noble Hierarch
3Qasali Pridemage
3Stoneforge Mystic
3Aven Mindcensor
2Scavenging Ooze
2Scryb Ranger

2Umezawa's Jitte
1Sword of Light and Shadow

2Sylvan Library

4Swords to Plowshares

4Green Suns Zenith

2Elspeth, knight Errent

1Forest
1Plains
2Temple Garden
3Savannah
4Windswept Heath
3Horizon Canopy
3Wasteland
2Misty Rainforest
1Dryad Arbor

Any questions please ask... Ill try and help with my collective knowledge of the meta game and what not, but I don't have much faith in this deck anymore...:rolleyes:

Uhm.. You're saying thalia is bad.. I assume you're probably losing games because of her. Can you tell us about your meta and how you planned to beat them with your build mb and sb? Also, how long have you been using Maverick?

EDIT:

Also, has it occurred to you that you're only running 20 lands?

[Tombstalker]

Funny thing actually, I've never done any research on DnT :P . Let me look into it and I'll let you know what I find
I was only joking brother. I wouldnt really want thalia to fall by wayside. Thalia is healthy for the format but shes a pain in my ass since I play mostly combo and tempo strategies and some dredge, all of which (even dredge at times) get migraines simply from hearing the name thalia.

DnT is a very annoying taxing deck that focuses more on that aspect than the toolbox/tutor aspect that maverick does. Its very powerful but less consistent due to no tutor ability outside of SFM. That and mid-late game aether vials suck as opposed to the power of GSZ.

Im not a mav player myself but im a pretty big fan of the archtype plus this is my wifes pet deck so I have the (dis)pleasure of getting owned by it pretty often :-)

Thing is maverick runs 30 ish creatures and 8+ ways to accelerate mana so thalia taxes you far less than anyone playing blue/red/black. Then add t2 wasteland into the mix and RUG might not be casting a freakin bolt all game if she resolves. The first strike gravy is also really annoying at times.



On DRS for a moment. Ive had my own DRS' cause maverick a few problems [KotR specifically when raced by TS] but I honestly dont see how its existence should force mav to splash for removal?!

Mav's grave is inherently lean to DRS' damage ability since GSZ doesnt hit the grave leaving very few instants/sorceries for food to begin with forcing DRS to catabolize itself.

It does shrink KotR which is inconvenient, so instead cast any of the other 26 beaters + jitte. Meanwhile ooze naturally owns DRS inside out downside up.

Anyway id like to hear arguements for why DRS [or anything] necessitates splashing for MD removal which has disynergy with thalia and the whole toolbox threat density/redundancy thing mav has going on..

Also why not run pithing beetle MD?

[Barook]

You win against fair decks by grinding them out.

Punishing Fire is excellent at grinding out fair decks. Plus, it gives you additional reach along your DRS and helps fighting enemy Planeswalkers who are quite troublesome. It also gives you business when you have nothing else to do with your mana.

In my limited testing so far, it has been extremely good. I do think it has some merit to run it if the manabase works.

[Tombstalker]

Barook- I agree with what you said but isnt that what maverick is good at anyway, i.e. grinding out? What fair decks really given you problems, Jund, goblins maybe?

The plainswalker answer does have some appeal I agree but then I'd think bolt is preferrable in all instances simply due to manabase issues of grove and 3 damage vs essentially 1 (when to the face that is). I guess I just dont like the clunkyness of punishing fire and the horrid manabase.

A lone mountain otoh wouldnt be unthinkable though and could maybe open up some other things like an E.tutor box maybe even including blood moon. Another idea vs plainswalkers specifically is more flash creatures although I havent really looked to see whats available. I do know elspeth is good here, pithing effects also. These are all assuming the splash is necessary although I still just dont see it being so. I know abrupt decay is a serious pain too but then you can't stop that barring cc4 or hexproof.

[Barook]

Barook- I agree with what you said but isnt that what maverick is good at anyway, i.e. grinding out? What fair decks really given you problems, Jund, goblins maybe?

The plainswalker answer does have appeal I agree but then I'd think bolt is preferrable in all instances simply due to manabase issues and 3 damage vs essentially 1 (to the face that is).
Jund can be problematic, mainly if they run Punishing Fire as well. BUG Shardless is definitely a hard match-up due all the card advantage they can generate.

If it just came down to additional removal, then you could just run some maindeck Abrupt Decays which kills pretty much the same (and more) except Jace. Being able to get it back (which doubles as Liliana protection to a certain degree) and shot some dudes again is quite strong.

E.g. I just played a game against Esper where he had 2 Snapcaster Mages + 4 Lingering Souls tokens. Punishing Fire in conjunction with Scavening Ooze helped me to stabilize and turn around the game. Being able to actually kill stuff instead of exiling it gives Ooze some food, which can be relevant as well.

PF is also going to take over Bolts damage-wise sooner or later when it just comes down to burning your opponent down. If you don't get it back, it's still 2 damage to the face and it gets rather silly with multiple copies/cycles, assuming you have the mana.

[Koby]

Sorry Koby, but I'm gonna have to use your post as my whole reply thing considering there is a lot of individuals I have to respond to about my post. First off, I don't think anybody is seeing the bigger picture here, if your running cards like Thalia simply because of the prevalence of (how Koby puts it so adequately) "efficient" spells your are basically making up for the fact that, you yourself, don't have efficient spells. There is an expression that I could use here that would COMPLETELY fit Mavericks situation in the next couple of years and its that you can dress a pig up in a tuxedo, but when it comes to etiquette and manners, its still a pig! Using Thalia as the tuxedo and wrapping the pig (the decks that are already screwing up Mavericks build in order to win against certain decks; might I add that some of those decks are winnable simply because maverick is aggro) with it isn't going to make the lil bugger any more desirable.. Well, maybe :3 but that's in the literal sense. You Koby (in a sense) are exactly on the money with Mavericks problems, as long as legacy is centered around efficient spells, we creature/aggro based strategists are going to be hit HARD. That being said, would it not make sense to go with the flow of super-efficient spells and finally snatch us up some winnings and quite possibly some.. Earnings :cool: .. Oh and Koby, you have such a play used on you and come back to post your reaction (not having any dual mana base simply because of someones blatant arrogance would be quite a bitch to come back from) and like I said to all you devoted Maverick fans, if you need help I am more than willing to lend a keyboard ^_^

Congrats, you have now been forever ignored. Your arguments are still bad.

Maverick routinely plays 25+ creatures. It's spell are not efficient outside of StP which is still efficient at :1::w: under Thalia. GSZ is not efficient when you have to pay X+1 to find a creature of CMC X. Elspeth is far from efficient in mana cost, but she's a trump so the 4 mana makes up for it.

Or maybe the whole name of the deck Maverick bucking the trend to play more spell than creatures was lost on you.

Also, maybe you missed the part where I routinely Top 8'd tournaments for a solid 8 months stretch? (link (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Jacob%20Kory))

Anyways, as your handle suggests you're only a troll and have been ignored.

[Tombstalker]

So I was browsing through my cards today and I came across this little gem heartwood storyteller. With moms protection this seems like a nasty GSZ target. Thoughts?

[AreYouSerious???]

So I was browsing through my cards today and I came across this little gem heartwood storyteller. With moms protection this seems like a nasty GSZ target. Thoughts?

Ok, I have decided to contribute considering my very messed up attitude towards this deck lately.. Seems like it could work, would definitely make people second guess anything they play against you.. Has good toughness, good mana cost.... Umm, I know it sounds flippin stupid, but what aboooooout.. Mana Tithe?? I had thought about it before considering most people don't expect a flat out counterspell in a White deck... Definitely something that would be used sparingly...

[AreYouSerious???]

Uhm.. You're saying thalia is bad.. I assume you're probably losing games because of her. Can you tell us about your meta and how you planned to beat them with your build mb and sb? Also, how long have you been using Maverick?

EDIT:

Also, has it occurred to you that you're only running 20 lands?

.. I've mostly have had to resort to head-games in order to win with my deck. I choose not to run Thalia because it shows that in the long-run Combo and Control players will have the upper hand against this deck.. I run 20 lands cause there is another card that this deck chooses to run around... KOTR, shes good, but she should'nt deserve ALL the credit

[litenkatt]

So I've been working on a punishing dark maverick deck. This is how my list looks atm:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SB
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Punishing Fire
2 Extirpate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I hope the mana base will be good enough with 2 BoP 3 Shamans. I cut Maze of Ith, I do love the card, but I feel like it can cause problems.

More anti combo cards in the SB than usualy because the MD should be good enough against most fair decks bcus of fire.

Not sure if we need discard MD. Thoughts on this?

Can probably cut 1 punishing fire, 1 abrupt decay and 1 Garruk relentless from the SB. Not sure just yet how the SB should look like.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A friend of mine plays GWb Mav and he uses three Dark Confidants. Why not try that when you're in those colors?

You play 23 lands in a GWrb deck, maybe, maybe you may cut one fetch.
You play two Pridemages in a deck with four GSZ, maybe you may cut one cat.
And then if you find another slot, you may incorporate those three Confidants. (I can even see you going down to zero Seizes main and than it's quite easy to find space for Bob.)

[door]

regarding the 4-color punishing maverick here with its awful manabase...
May be I'll sound silly, but why trying to invent bicycle, when Jund is just better?

[BlackFlameAshura]

.. I've mostly have had to resort to head-games in order to win with my deck. I choose not to run Thalia because it shows that in the long-run Combo and Control players will have the upper hand against this deck.. I run 20 lands cause there is another card that this deck chooses to run around... KOTR, shes good, but she should'nt deserve ALL the credit

What? Thalia absolutely ruins Combo if she hits the board against them. If the combo decks are hurting you bad, add hate to your SB like Ethersworn Canonist or Mindbreak Traps (assuming your meta is more storm focused). If you're worried about reanimator style decks, try Bojuka Bog (tutorable by KOTR!), Surgical Extraction, and/or Rest In Peace (yes it makes KOTR weaker but it hurts Reanimator, RUG Delver, opposing KOTRs, etc.). The bottom line, though, is that you should be playing Thalia. I'd go down the Sword, or at least move it to the SB (personally I'd rather have one Batterskull and a Jitte only in main), because it's not going to do as well as the Jittes and it's easily one of the weaker swords you could be playing, maybe an Elspeth and Sylvan Library (both of which are usually 1-of's), and maybe one Mindcensor.

You should also really fix your land base. Horizon Canopy is good, but at a 3-of it'll kill you more than it'll save you, and I'll echo lolTemple Garden. Hell I'd just replace the Shocks for Cavern of Souls (calling Human on a Cavern in Maverick is the best thing ever when you have Hierarch, Mom, Thalia, and KOTR), get a Karakas (yeah the Thalia block trick is nice, but it nails target Griselbrand or Emrakul in one), and probably a Maze of Ith too, though I suppose that last one might be a little meta dependent.

Lastly, there's really never any reason you should need 3 Gaddock Teegs in your side. I'd go a max of 2, but usually you only need one since you'll either draw him or tutor him with GSZ and that should be more than enough.

Try to avoid looking at Maverick as a hard aggro deck, because it really isn't. It's a midrange deck through and through, building your board state to try manipulating it and gaining an edge on your opponent. The endgame is to beat their face in, sure, but it's something that takes longer to do than, say, Goblins or Affinity which drop their hands pretty quickly and smash their opponents, something Maverick almost never does.

[Barook]

regarding the 4-color punishing maverick here with its awful manabase...
May be I'll sound silly, but why trying to invent bicycle, when Jund is just better?
Brewing is fun. Noboby proclaimed it as the best thing since sliced bread.

As long as there isn't playtest data, you can't say that Jund is just better on the basis of a better mana base. The core is (or should be) Punishing Maverick with black sideboard tech to combat combo and for DRS activations which is quite different.

@litenkatt: Our lists look pretty similiar:



4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

3 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

MD discard does indeed seem very greedy.

I would definitely run a MD Dryad Arbor since it's too good to pass. You might be right on the second Bayou and putting Bog in the sideboard since MD Bog was pretty situational and black mana is premium.

I'm still unsure whether I should use a fourth Mom or keep the Safekeeper. A second BoP is probably a good idea because from what I've seen so far, the deck is extremely mana hungry and the extra mana fixing should be pretty nice.

I would definitely run SoFaF in the MD. It's already damn good in the normal Maverick variants and it can be used to power up the Grove/PF engine to absolutely decimate their board. Whether or not to run a third SFM is debateable since space is premium.

Talking about premium: I can see the point of Fatal's single Life from the Loam due to enormous mana hunger the deck has, but then again, what to cut?

I also like your fourth PF in the board. A single Canonist without E-Tutor seems a bit random, though.

[door]

Brewing is fun. Noboby proclaimed it as the best thing since sliced bread.

As long as there isn't playtest data, you can't say that Jund is just better on the basis of a better mana base. The core is (or should be) Punishing Maverick with black sideboard tech to combat combo and for DRS activations which is quite different.


what about GWb maverick you are playing vs jund, team america and bug control match ups in comparison to GW zenith lists? Do you have live experience to make a comparison?

[Barook]

what about GWb maverick you are playing vs jund, team america and bug control match ups in comparison to GW zenith lists? Do you have live experience to make a comparison?
I haven't played GW Zenith since a long time. I've played Vial Maverick for a while before switching straight to Sunyveil's GWb Maverick list because I saw the advantages the splash has to offer. And I trust Sunyveil's judgement on that.

Team America is pretty much non-existent in the MODO meta, but there's lots of BUG Shardless and a very occasional Jund deck. The splash certainly helps, mainly due to DRS in those match-ups, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that it improves match-up X up to Y%.

But I fail to see how that's relevant in the discussion about Punishing Dark Maverick. It's my little pet project I'm working on as a sideline since I want to get the manabase right before dropping money on it.

The power level of PF is very high in fair match-ups and it's performance so far was quite impressive from what I've seen. The question is whether or not it's possible to maintain the strenght of the black splash against combo by having its sideboard cards. The only theoretical point that speaks against it so far is the greedy manabase, hence the experiment to see if it's workable or not. If it doesn't, it was worth the try, but if it does - awesome.

[oSeabass]

I haven't had time to read back on all the stuff in this thread (super long, probably lots of good info).

As a new member to the forum I am excited to be dusting of my Maverick deck for the next few weeks. I was planning on practicing and playing with Shardless BUG, but I don't think I have the time before this weekends upcoming tournament to practice and learn all the lines. That being said, I love Maverick, and with the decline of Terminus I think it can still put up results with a pilot who knows the deck well.

I am looking to add a black splash for Deathrite Shaman and Thoughtseize out of the board. I considered running Vindicate in the board to deal with Jace TMS, but I think that is getting a little to greedy. The combo decks have been on the rise, and I have my fingers crossed 3 maindeck Thalia, 1 in board, as well as a main deck Gaddock Teeg will be enough to stop combo (or at least slow them down enough). I normally run a sideboard with an Enlightened Tutor package for silver bullet type cards: Ethersworn Canonist, Choke, Worship, etc. and I know that still needs some tweaking for the current meta (lots of Storm and BUG Discard).

How do you all feel about value green creatures coming out of the board against decks like BUG that run heavy discard spells like Hymn? I know against Thoughtseize, some of the cards you WANT to randomly get discarded will be avoided like the plague. I am talking cards like Wilt-Leaf Liege and Vengevine. They are resilient against not only the discard they run, but they have a > 3 CMC that cannot be targeted by Abrupt Decay, which is slowly taking over for removal (since everyone runs DRS).

[Barook]

The more I'm playing with Punishing Fire, the more I'm impressed with it - to the point where I might make some sideboard changes to improve combo matches even further:

Current board:

SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Potential changes:
-1 E-Plague, -2 AD
+1 Punishing Fire, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Thalia

I found discard in general pretty crucial in the combo match-up, so increasing them from 4 to 5 might be the right call. I could see another Thalia contributing quite well against combo, too.

I'm a bit sceptical about E-Plague. Sure, it's nice against Elves and certain decks heavy on Humans (which hurts you as well), but my gut feeling tells me that a 4th PF has a wider range of applications while being good in those matches as well.

AD is another shaky candidate I'm not sure if it's cutable or not. It's a great card, but both Pridemage and PF can handle most removal cases as well.

I would like to throw in a Bojuka Bog as well, but the sideboard space is tight.

What are your thoughts on this?

[test1985]

.. I've mostly have had to resort to head-games in order to win with my deck. I choose not to run Thalia because it shows that in the long-run Combo and Control players will have the upper hand against this deck.. I run 20 lands cause there is another card that this deck chooses to run around... KOTR, shes good, but she should'nt deserve ALL the credit

First of, you didn't answer my question:
1. How do you play against say.. ANT, elves, and Miracles? (Not to be mean, but can you at least tell us your game plan against these decks mb and sb?
2. how long have you been playing maverick?

As for KOTR, you do understand that she's strong for toolboxing lands into wasteland, cavern of souls, bojuka bog, karakas, or something else that you need, right? You don't rely on her to help you out with mana.

Maverick is built around "hatebears". Meaning you hate different strategies based on your existing meta. Lastly, life lost from temple gardens might be the difference between winning and losing especially against gobs and merfolk. If you don't see the power of maverick, maybe this deck is not for you. Perhaps when you try other decks and you play against an experienced mav player, you'd understand this deck more.

[Tombstalker]

Bojuka bog has great synergy with PF it might be worth a look in the main since it not only combats reanimator/dredge but to a lesser extent RUG, ANT etc. Also what about a couple mind censors main for some more disruption?

[door]

I haven't played GW Zenith since a long time. I've played Vial Maverick for a while before switching straight to Sunyveil's GWb Maverick list because I saw the advantages the splash has to offer. And I trust Sunyveil's judgement on that.

Team America is pretty much non-existent in the MODO meta, but there's lots of BUG Shardless and a very occasional Jund deck. The splash certainly helps, mainly due to DRS in those match-ups, although I wouldn't go as far as saying that it improves match-up X up to Y%.

But I fail to see how that's relevant in the discussion about Punishing Dark Maverick. It's my little pet project I'm working on as a sideline since I want to get the manabase right before dropping money on it.


Well, previously you were writing a lot about the GWb build and I'm asking you before you went too far into the 4-color depths =) The reason behind my question is based on my experience with the mentioned vial build, though I thought, it's easier to compare zenith builds. But as far as you played the vial build it's even better for me. The only matches that bother me, while playing with vials, are jund and Team America (more than existant in our meta). And now I need to make a choice, whether I tune my sideboard or try completely different build (GWb). Unfortunately I don't have enough time to comprehensively test both.

But since you say black doesn't make dramatical changes in these m/ups, I think, I'm closer to sticking to vials and adding some lieges, obstinate baloths or loxodon smiters to my sb.

Thanks anyway and good luck with punishing fires =)

[AreYouSerious???]

What? Thalia absolutely ruins Combo if she hits the board against them. If the combo decks are hurting you bad, add hate to your SB like Ethersworn Canonist or Mindbreak Traps (assuming your meta is more storm focused). If you're worried about reanimator style decks, try Bojuka Bog (tutorable by KOTR!), Surgical Extraction, and/or Rest In Peace (yes it makes KOTR weaker but it hurts Reanimator, RUG Delver, opposing KOTRs, etc.). The bottom line, though, is that you should be playing Thalia. I'd go down the Sword, or at least move it to the SB (personally I'd rather have one Batterskull and a Jitte only in main), because it's not going to do as well as the Jittes and it's easily one of the weaker swords you could be playing, maybe an Elspeth and Sylvan Library (both of which are usually 1-of's), and maybe one Mindcensor.

You should also really fix your land base. Horizon Canopy is good, but at a 3-of it'll kill you more than it'll save you, and I'll echo lolTemple Garden. Hell I'd just replace the Shocks for Cavern of Souls (calling Human on a Cavern in Maverick is the best thing ever when you have Hierarch, Mom, Thalia, and KOTR), get a Karakas (yeah the Thalia block trick is nice, but it nails target Griselbrand or Emrakul in one), and probably a Maze of Ith too, though I suppose that last one might be a little meta dependent.

Lastly, there's really never any reason you should need 3 Gaddock Teegs in your side. I'd go a max of 2, but usually you only need one since you'll either draw him or tutor him with GSZ and that should be more than enough.

Try to avoid looking at Maverick as a hard aggro deck, because it really isn't. It's a midrange deck through and through, building your board state to try manipulating it and gaining an edge on your opponent. The endgame is to beat their face in, sure, but it's something that takes longer to do than, say, Goblins or Affinity which drop their hands pretty quickly and smash their opponents, something Maverick almost never does.

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg... I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop.. I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

[Barook]

Well, previously you were writing a lot about the GWb build and I'm asking you before you went too far into the 4-color depths =) The reason behind my question is based on my experience with the mentioned vial build, though I thought, it's easier to compare zenith builds. But as far as you played the vial build it's even better for me. The only matches that bother me, while playing with vials, are jund and Team America (more than existant in our meta). And now I need to make a choice, whether I tune my sideboard or try completely different build (GWb). Unfortunately I don't have enough time to comprehensively test both.

But since you say black doesn't make dramatical changes in these m/ups, I think, I'm closer to sticking to vials and adding some lieges, obstinate baloths or loxodon smiters to my sb.

Thanks anyway and good luck with punishing fires =)
It really depends on the meta. The MODO meta is infested with combo and it was getting frustrating since hatebears alone didn't cut it for me anymore. Omnitell was the worst in that regard. Sometimes, it's just impossible to beat combo without discard. In the last Legacy DE I played against Storm (I think it was TES) and had a pretty solid hand on the play with T1 DRS, T2 Teeg. He had Chain of Vapor and a T2 kill. Sure, quite unlucky on my side, but a discard spell for his Infernal Tutor might have stalled him enough.

The power black adds, especially in form of DRS, shouldn't be underestimated, though. But if you're confident enough with the Vial build, go for it.

As far as Jund is concerned - they can be problematic, especially if they run Punishing Fire. Hence me testing PF myself. Had a game today were a single PF killed 2 Bobs and 2 Lilianas, giving me enough time to stabilize after a massive land flood and to StP his second Goyf. Everything but Goyfs dies to PF, including Liliana - which is huge.

From what I've seen so far, the mana base might be less than an issue than it appears first, because you're either Punishing Maverick OR Dark Maverick post-board. Thus you don't need to be greedy and fetch 4 colors. Haven't had a chance to play against RUG Delver and friends were it might be relevant, though.

[Koby]

I think it should go without saying, if you're running more top-heavy threats (like Elspeth/Thrun/Sigarda) or 3-4 color variations, you should increase the land count to 23 (omitting Maze of Ith from this count). You're going to need the consistent mana for both these strategies and missing land drops will directly lead to lost games.

[Barook]

I think it should go without saying, if you're running more top-heavy threats (like Elspeth/Thrun/Sigarda) or 3-4 color variations, you should increase the land count to 23 (omitting Maze of Ith from this count). You're going to need the consistent mana for both these strategies and missing land drops will directly lead to lost games.
I'm using 23 lands (all instant mana sources, no Cradle or Maze) along with 2 BoP, 3 DRS and 4 GSZ for a potential Dryad Arbor in my 4 color build. I wouldn't go above that, though, since you have less space for business and risk being flooded. 23 lands feels already like alot, but at least there's always stuff to do with the mana.

[BlackFlameAshura]

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg...

I don't think you should ever really try to rely wholly on Elspeth for your win. She can give you the push to a win that you might need sometimes, but she isn't a direct win con herself like Batterskull, KOTR, or anything equipped with a Jitte. As for Teeg, playing one of him with 4 Green Sun's Zenith should mean he's never very hard to get out if you truly need him, and you're not always going to need him. I play him as a one-of main since he can lead to blow-out wins in some matchups but in others he's nigh useless.


I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop..

Please stop acting like Thalia's bad because she's far from it. The only things she hurts in this deck are minimal, especially since the deck accelerates reasonably well enough that it's not exactly unheard of to be able to hardcast a Batterskull while she's on the board, she'll halt your opponent's gameplan, AND she's a 2/1 first striker that both gets pumped by exalted triggers and gets Jitte counters before your opponent gets to deal damage to her. In addition, yeah, she can be bounced constantly via Karakas for an incredibly strong blocker. Mindcensor is good so I don't know if I'd take all of them out, but try around with some different builds. Most I've seen run just one but some run two, so I think it's, again, a bit of a meta call.


I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

My only real advice here with regards to this is just don't come in acting like you've been playing the deck for awhile and then bash everyone else's opinions (who have been playing with it for awhile) when in reality you've barely touched it. You can only gain so much input and info by examining the metagame. It's an important piece, to be sure (and it's why my SB changes quite often depending on who walks into the shop I play at), but it's not going to teach you how to play the deck. You can't really "notice" problems (like you say Thalia is a problem for the deck) until you've actually played it for awhile. Maverick's a lot of fun once you've got the feel for the deck, so take some of our advice to heart as you build your deck. Try some variants while you're at it like Vial Maverick or Dark Maverick (which has been pretty popular lately).

[AreYouSerious???]

I don't think you should ever really try to rely wholly on Elspeth for your win. She can give you the push to a win that you might need sometimes, but she isn't a direct win con herself like Batterskull, KOTR, or anything equipped with a Jitte. As for Teeg, playing one of him with 4 Green Sun's Zenith should mean he's never very hard to get out if you truly need him, and you're not always going to need him. I play him as a one-of main since he can lead to blow-out wins in some matchups but in others he's nigh useless.



Please stop acting like Thalia's bad because she's far from it. The only things she hurts in this deck are minimal, especially since the deck accelerates reasonably well enough that it's not exactly unheard of to be able to hardcast a Batterskull while she's on the board, she'll halt your opponent's gameplan, AND she's a 2/1 first striker that both gets pumped by exalted triggers and gets Jitte counters before your opponent gets to deal damage to her. In addition, yeah, she can be bounced constantly via Karakas for an incredibly strong blocker. Mindcensor is good so I don't know if I'd take all of them out, but try around with some different builds. Most I've seen run just one but some run two, so I think it's, again, a bit of a meta call.



My only real advice here with regards to this is just don't come in acting like you've been playing the deck for awhile and then bash everyone else's opinions (who have been playing with it for awhile) when in reality you've barely touched it. You can only gain so much input and info by examining the metagame. It's an important piece, to be sure (and it's why my SB changes quite often depending on who walks into the shop I play at), but it's not going to teach you how to play the deck. You can't really "notice" problems (like you say Thalia is a problem for the deck) until you've actually played it for awhile. Maverick's a lot of fun once you've got the feel for the deck, so take some of our advice to heart as you build your deck. Try some variants while you're at it like Vial Maverick or Dark Maverick (which has been pretty popular lately).

Thank you ^_^ I could not have asked for a more pleasant post! I have reversed my opinions on Thalia and am looking forward to what she is going to do in the future meta game. Hope I didn't bother much of you!

[test1985]

But then inconsistency ensues.. I have a couple Mav buddies that have lost because they could'nt find their Elspeth or Teeg... I... I CAN'T believe I'm saying this, but Mindcensor I think CAN be taken out for...... Thalia -_- (god this sucks) .. I guess I'll be snatching her up next time I hit my local card shop.. I have to admit something here actually.. I've never actually played Maverick the deck above me is a test deck. I get my facts from meta game charts, price increases/drops, etc, and recently I've noticed some problems with the deck. I fuckin hate brainstorm builds and hope to see the card banned soon (in fact, I'm trying to build a deck completely around a massive, game-ending strategy so that MAYBE it'll be noticed for the Psuedo-Recall card that it is and finally get banned). I'm sorry for all the commotion I started on this forum; I can assure you my intentions we're good and well, I apologize for the comments to some of the experienced players as well (gotta watch out for the little guy)

Let's break this down..

Your mav friends saying they didn't find teeg or elspeth meant that they're probably playing against miracles. Yes, it WAS a really bad MU. Counter-top-terminus singlehandedly wiped maverick out from the meta game for a while. Back then, there were no concept of "magic numbers" (cmc that cb can hardly reach) and over-commitment on the board was common. Abrupt decay is the easiest way out, hence the appearance of BGx decks. Now, miracles vs mav is 55-45 mb and 50-50 sb (w/ the correct sb, of course). Also, by mav, i meant any build (gw, pMav, dMav, vMav). Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Mindcensor can be replaced -- as long as you have a better hate. I replaced it with mirran crusaders in my GW build mainly because BGx decks are packing golgari charms. In my pMav build, thalia is in my sb. It all depends on your meta.

My advise, try playing maverick or play against it before you invest. Decks that aren't in the meta doesn't mean they're weak. It just means they're not popular right now. All the better, this would mean other players wouldn't be packing hate against us. Good luck.

EDIT: typo

[Barook]

Has anybody tried out Barbarian Ring/Cabal Pit in the respective builds as a KotR target?

If so, how did it go? Did you run Life from the Loam to support it?

[diakocjay]

Hi Team,

I was wondering what would be the best sideboard to use against Omnitell, hive mind or Omni-halls deck? I am currently trying the deck list of Jack Wang (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5181&d=229874).

[Barook]

Hi Team,

I was wondering what would be the best sideboard to use against Omnitell, hive mind or Omni-halls deck? I am currently trying the deck list of Jack Wang (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5181&d=229874).
From my experience so far, the match-up is very bad (at least Omnitell, no idea what Omnihalls is supposed to be since Omnitell runs both). The only thing that actually worked for me is getting lucky, putting an O-Ring into play and praying they don't have an instant speed answer.

Discard can be helpful, but between Brainstorm and Leyline of Sanctity, it isn't too stellar, either.

Probably the most upsetting thing is how they simply don't care about your hatebears - especially since you can't protect them thanks to Wipe Away.

[Fatal]

Maybe its quite insane but if you looking for best OmniTell hate use:
Trinisphere
Oblivion Ring
Any thalia/Gaddock in numbers
Thorn of Ametyst - best multiple
Red Elemental Blast
Ethersworn Canonist
Discard
Krosan Grips

Not tested too many games but Trinisphere looks quite promising, similar to Canonist but stops from countering answer to S&Ted Omni in your turn.

Best had which they can't resist - Oring on hand and Trini in hand, from S&T play Trini, then Oring in your turn or GSZ for pridemage, or reb / any other.. Same is with Canonist but they can FoW your answer.

[Megadeus]

Hatebears are great vs Omnitell and any combo of the two is very difficult for them to beat.

[AlbyLegacy]

I'm gonna play test this list and see how it does// Deck: modern maverick (60)

// Lands 23
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures 26
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial


I know it look different then the typical maverick list but think of all the crazy interactions you get with fauna shaman + vial and all the different creatures.

[Barook]

I'm going to get my hands on the missing parts of the mana base to test Punishing Dark Maverick in the second Legacy DE later. The build I'm using is probably close to Sunyveil's - which is coincidentally pretty close to Fatal's list MD-wise.


@AlbyLegacy: I know DRS is huge right now, but why not a single copy of Squee to generate card advantage with every turn?

Other stuff to think about:

- 1 SFM to tutor for Jitte

- maybe 1 Mangara as extra removal and to establish the Karakas combo?

- if you run Vial, Weathered Wayfarer might be of interested for you which belongs to the core of Vial Maverick

- a few copies of GSZ to find your Fauna Shamans and increase the consistency of your green creatures probably doesn't hurt as well

[AlbyLegacy]

I'm going to get my hands on the missing parts of the mana base to test Punishing Dark Maverick in the second Legacy DE later. The build I'm using is probably close to Sunyveil's - which is coincidentally pretty close to Fatal's list MD-wise.


@AlbyLegacy: I know DRS is huge right now, but why not a single copy of Squee to generate card advantage with every turn?

Other stuff to think about:

- 1 SFM to tutor for Jitte

- maybe 1 Mangara as extra removal and to establish the Karakas combo?

- if you run Vial, Weathered Wayfarer might be of interested for you which belongs to the core of Vial Maverick

- a few copies of GSZ to find your Fauna Shamans and increase the consistency of your green creatures probably doesn't hurt as well

Thanks. These are all good cards to consider. I have some testing to do.

[andrebonotto]

(...)
I would definitely run SoFaF in the MD. It's already damn good in the normal Maverick variants and it can be used to power up the Grove/PF engine to absolutely decimate their board. Whether or not to run a third SFM is debateable since space is premium.
(...)



Hi,

I'm assembling a Maverick deck (initially the classic Zenith-GW version) and I'm not experienced with the deck, but your statement intrigued me.

Why is that the Sword of Feast and Famine is "already damn good in the normal Maverick variants"?

I often see builds playing with "just" 2x Umezawa's Jitte. What's the point of this sword? (And why not any other?)

And how is it often arranged in terms of card slots for "the pack" (X Equipments + Y SfM) in the decks that use it?

Sincerely,

- André

[Barook]

Hi,

I'm assembling a Maverick deck (initially the classic Zenith-GW version) and I'm not experienced with the deck, but your statement intrigued me.

Why is that the Sword of Feast and Famine is "already damn good in the normal Maverick variants"?

I often see builds playing with "just" 2x Umezawa's Jitte. What's the point of this sword? (And why not any other?)

And how is it often arranged in terms of card slots for "the pack" (X Equipments + Y SfM) in the decks that use it?

Sincerely,

- André
You're going to need some outlet to fight BUG Shardless, even if they run AD to kill the sword. If it's left unchecked, it wrecks them.

[Koby]

Sword of X & Y are a preference call. Sometimes, SoFI is the nuts; other times SoLS is; other times it's SOFF.

SoFF is likely best against combo because of the ability to discard the opponent and to deploy more threats (Thalia/Teeg/KotR into Wasteland).

They are all too slow when you really just want Hate-bears.

@Barook,
Every sword has a huge benefit against BUG. SoLS is able to give you some recursion and SoFI gives you extra cards. They can kill the sword regardless with AD; and if they can't their only recourse is blocking. With Mom providing evasion, each single sword will give a ton of card advantage.

[Zupponn]

Maybe its quite insane but if you looking for best OmniTell hate use:
Trinisphere
Oblivion Ring
Any thalia/Gaddock in numbers
Thorn of Ametyst - best multiple
Red Elemental Blast
Ethersworn Canonist
Discard
Krosan Grips

Not tested too many games but Trinisphere looks quite promising, similar to Canonist but stops from countering answer to S&Ted Omni in your turn.

Best had which they can't resist - Oring on hand and Trini in hand, from S&T play Trini, then Oring in your turn or GSZ for pridemage, or reb / any other.. Same is with Canonist but they can FoW your answer.

Hi, I'm a Dragom Stompy player and I can verify that Trinisphere is very good vs OmniTell. It can stop them dead in their tracks while you go for the kill. Also, it's probably not ideal for you guys, but Confusion in the Ranks is really good against them as well, either stealing Omniscience or allowing you to steal Emrakul on your following turn.

[Barook]

Finally got my hands on the cards to the Punishing Dark Maverick build. Maybe I'm going to give it a spin in the Legacy DE later this day:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

3 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard:
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

It's pretty much the same list as Sunyveil is currently testing, except I replaced the MD Canopy and LftL with a Cradle and a SoFaF since you can tutor for both.

My reasoning behind is that LtfL never came up in the match-ups I've watched on his stream and he frequently boarded it out. While I can see the impact when you draw it (especially with Wasteland or Canopy), it just seems kind of too random to rely on it. I love my SoFaF and considering the MODO meta is chock-full with RUG, BUG and DRS, plus Dark Maverick gaining popularity, it might be a good call, especially with the synergy SoFaF has with the PF engine. Dryad Arbor and Maze of Ith are some of my favorite tricks with it as well.

Since Sunyveil started to run a second Ooze like many other Maverick players and me having a third equipment, I've decided to replace the Canopy with Cradle. Is it greedy in a 4-colored mana base? Definitely. Is it worth it? Maybe. Only testing can tell if the serious mana bursts for Ooze and equipment are worth it.

I've also replace the Zuran Orb with a Bog - it's just way too good as a KotR target and I'd miss something without it.

Edit:

@Barook,
Every sword has a huge benefit against BUG. SoLS is able to give you some recursion and SoFI gives you extra cards. They can kill the sword regardless with AD; and if they can't their only recourse is blocking. With Mom providing evasion, each single sword will give a ton of card advantage.
The problem I see with SoLS are active DRS which can deny you the recursion. Tapping Mom for evasion is a double-edged sword (no pun intended) since it opens you up for removal, but if they have AD, your critter is going to have a hard time anyway because they could kill SoFaF, too.

[andrebonotto]

@ Barook & Koby:

Thanks for the feedback IRT to SoFaF.

And if I'm going to use it, what do you think would be the proper configuration of card slots, between SoFaF, other Equipment, and Stoneforge Mystics?


- André

[Barook]

@ Barook & Koby:

Thanks for the feedback IRT to SoFaF.

And if I'm going to use it, what do you think would be the proper configuration of card slots, between SoFaF, other Equipment, and Stoneforge Mystics?
It really depends on the rest of the build and the meta.

If you run SFM, I would go with 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull, (1 SoFaF if your meta requires it) and 2-3 SFM - probably 2 because you want to run GSZ already. But that's just my opinion.

However, if you use equipment as a pillar of the deck, I would definitely include a Gaea's Cradle to power out your stuff. With GW, I don't see a problem to run a single copy.

[AlbyLegacy]

Is Polukranos , World Eater what maverick needed to better it's match ups vs faster creature deck? ( goblins , affinity, elves, Merfolks, Death and Taxes, ect). With a Cradle in play you can wipe their board easily. Can also bounce back with Karakas for a repeatable one sided wrath.

Any thoughts?

[Barook]

Is Polukranos , World Eater what maverick needed to better it's match ups vs faster creature deck? ( goblins , affinity, elves, Merfolks, Death and Taxes, ect). With a Cradle in play you can wipe their board easily. Can also bounce back with Karakas for a repeatable one sided wrath.

Any thoughts?
PF does a better job than that without sucking. I'm already looking for a way to pack a 4th in the Sb because it is THAT good. PF wins fair games. Polukranos is just too expensive for what it does.

[Philipp2293]

Is Polukranos , World Eater what maverick needed to better it's match ups vs faster creature deck? ( goblins , affinity, elves, Merfolks, Death and Taxes, ect). With a Cradle in play you can wipe their board easily. Can also bounce back with Karakas for a repeatable one sided wrath.

Any thoughts?

Also, apart from Elves (where Polukranos is way too slow anyway) those MUs range from easy to even, so not sure if it's an issue that needs to be adressed. PF sounds right if your meta is infested with those decks, I run 1 Ulvenwald Tracker in the SB in he is also pretty good in those MUs if you want to stay straight GW(b).

[AlbyLegacy]

Thanks guys.
I am gonna stick to my GW mav.


Deck: maverick (60)

// Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[andrebonotto]

It really depends on the rest of the build and the meta.

If you run SFM, I would go with 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull, (1 SoFaF if your meta requires it) and 2-3 SFM - probably 2 because you want to run GSZ already. But that's just my opinion.

However, if you use equipment as a pillar of the deck, I would definitely include a Gaea's Cradle to power out your stuff. With GW, I don't see a problem to run a single copy.

Thanks again!

I'll follow your hint whenever I'm able to acquire the remaining pieces of the deck. (Luckily, I already have the Cradle, from playing with Elves :smile:)

[Barook]

To add something about Polukranos since I'm not on my mobile phone anymore:

The only match-ups where I could view it as relevant is against other Midrange decks (and even then, only those without StP/Karakas). Killing 1-2 dudes and swinging with a 6/6 or 7/7 is pretty relevant here.

Fast aggro won't care since you might be dead well before you could activate the ability. Recycling Polukranos with Karakas sounds pretty insane - that's a 10+ mana investment that doesn't win the game. This isn't Standard where stuff like this is viable.

I advocate that more people should try out Punishing Fire. It significantly improves fair match-ups and the slightly worse manabase to combat combo in the sideboard is worth the trade imho.

[Telkku]

Little report about Maverick doing some work. Havent wrote anything here in a long time and now after couple good finishes and trying out little variations, it was the time i shared my list and thoughts. As said havent wrote here in a long time, youll find my signature probably like 100-150 pages ago so im no new to Maverick, only legacy deck ive played past couple years (in tournaments). First of course the good'ol GW build and after testing ( losing to everything ) with it again for fun i decided i just need to use some of the cards that are better ( BoB / Thoughtseize / Abrupt Decay ) than some in the old list ( too many Oozes / Qasalis / etc. ) and updated it couple months ago. Since then the deck has been performing really well and before the tournaments and scouting the metagame ive made only slight changes. I went to local stores legacy wednesday couple weeks ago and 4-0'd and then last weekend i played at 40 people tournament at Tampere, Finland and heres a quick recap what happened.

First of all this is the list ive perfected after a lot of playtesting and experience with different variations and interactions of Maverick. ( live with my mates and "some" time spent on MWS )

Lands:

1 x Plains
1 x Forest
1 x Gaea's Cradle
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Maze of Ith
1 x Scrubland
2 x Bayou
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Savannah
4 x Wasteland

Creatures:

1 x Scryb Ranger
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Knight of the Reliquary

Instant & Sorcery:

4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Thoughtseize

Enchantment & Artifact:

1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

3 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 x Duress
1 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Karakas
1 x Bojuka Bog
2 x Relic of Progenitus
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Enlightened Tutor
1 x Sigarda, Host of Herons

So this is the list without metagame adjustments. After snooping around and asking people about the meta i decided to switch 3 x Thalia in and take 2 x Thoughtseize and 1 x Gaddock teeg out. Also i took my 2nd Enlightened Tutor out of the SB and replaced it with 2nd Duress.


So its 11 o'clock at the sunday morning and im chatting with my friend about the fact that i bet out of all the ppl im gonna get randomized versus him cause that has happened in every standard tournament in past 2 - 3 months and i really didnt want to face him cause he played Omnitell. So the inevitable happens and i really got paired against him. I cant do anything else than just laugh.

Game 1, Omnitell

g1 i miss GW maverick cause when he casts show and tell and the table looked something like : Deathrite, Ooze, BoB, and fresh KotR from s'n't and opposing side has Emrakul and 0 cards in hand. But as you can see by looking my decklist, that the list is so tight i have to keep Karakas on the SB and i scoop in misery. g2 i dont remember much, he mulled down to 5 i think and i get hatebears to handle the things. g3 my opening hand looks really good but the problem is that he will start. First turn Mom followed by thalia slows him down and then i get to GSZ for gaddock teeg. Hes at 3 life and show and tell's Omnisciense to the table, thinks abit and tells me hes one mana short cause of thalia and shakes my hand. Phew, im smiling and cant stop it. Worst matchup won as a first game promises good. Result: 2-1

Game 2, Esper Deathblade

Matchup that i was waiting and when i saw first lands hit the ground i knew that im not supposed to lose this, abrupt decay is the nuts in this one and after miserable draws on game 2 i win pretty easily the game 3 too. I didnt know my opponent well, only thing was that i heard hes a good player, as a sidepoint he came to me in some point and asked me if i wanna buy the deck cause hes bored playing it :D Not much else to tell about this game. Result 2-1

Game 3 Reanimator

I just hate the deck, i mean i would never ever touch reanimator so of course im forced to play against it, thank you gods of magic.. g1 he gets turn 3 Iona but after thinking like 5 minutes he says "black" cause he has played against me when i played my friends "Rock" so he fears Liliana. I topdeck Ooze 1 turn too late and he hits with Iona. Next turn i topdeck Maze of Ith and then starts the sitting. After a while he casts Show and Tell and slams down Griselbrand but meanwhile my shaman has done some work and ive gotten him down to 8 so he cant activate Grisles ridonkulous ability, i slammed down allmighty Bob who then immediatly helps me to find Stop and i say bye bye to mister Griselbrand. My Ooze has gotten bigger than hes Iona and eventhough he gets to cheat Elesh Norn into play, Ooze drives me home safely. g2 is all about my SB and wasteland, i think he had max 1 land the whole game. Result 2-0

Game 4, BR Zombartment

I really didnt know well what im facing but i was confident that i should be the runner up in this one. Game 1 once again Abrupt Decay and Stop handles the early Blasting station and creatures while Bob digs me Jitte and after opponent sees it he says " lets go for the other ". In 2nd game my turn 1 Thoughtseize shows me Contamination that i quickly tell him to discard. After that its all Bob and when Jitte shows up the game is over. I have to give props for the nice brew though. Result : 4-0

After this starts the calculation, can i ID allready? I get paired with Oops, Allspells and i just hope my opponent wants to ID and he does. We watch others play and chat abit.

Then i get paired against UWR Delver/Geist and again we do little math and decide to ID cause we both get top 4 like this and get the " hey i dont need a die roll to start these games " . I want to play against him for fun and he agrees. Game 1 and 3 are easy ( like last time we played eachother ) but in game 2 i keep the worst hand of the day ( maybe cause it wasnt so serioius game ) and Geist kills me quite fast. Its a really good matchup for me and i hope we meet at top 8.

So after all the dust has settled i see myself positioned at 2nd place after Swizz. Then i see who im gonna face and start crying inside, TES.. one of the matchups that can be too fast for me. The other thing i was missing was my thoughtseizes in the sideboard. At least i get to start the game.

Top 8 Quarters, TES

I play turn 1 Deathrite and he ponders. Im getting a little optimistic at this point cause he has nonbasic in play and i have 2 wastelands in hand. I play Bob and waste hes land and pass. Next turn he puts another nonbasic into play and brainstorms. Bob gives me gas and i waste the other land. Bob drives me home with a little help and im amazed that i won TES game 1 without any hatebears, sometimes you get lucky. Game 2 he doesnt have the combo pieces ready as fast as he needed and i get to turn 1 duress, turn 2 thalia, turn 3 ethersworn canonist and turn 4 gaddock teeg with GSZ. He thinks out hes options and quickly shakes my hand. At this point im already happy cause ive won 2 really hard matchups.

Im gonna write the rest tomorrow since i noticed its 4.26 am..

If and when you guys wanna ask " why this card and why not that card " or any other questions about this deck or maverick overall, hit me. And after reading the previous posts and playing with and against punishing fire Mav, ( not trying to undermine it at all, its totally functional card and strategy ) in a cardgame that theres punishing fire vs abrupt decay, i would bet my chips on abrupt decay any day. That is cause the current meta ( not only here, as said i practice vs all the tier 1 decks ) is what it is and decay just does more overall than punishing fire. But im encouraging you to test both and find the right one for yourself, as long as you play Maverick you cant go wrong :)

-Telkku

[litenkatt]

Little report about Maverick doing some work. Havent wrote anything here in a long time and now after couple good finishes and trying out little variations, it was the time i shared my list and thoughts. As said havent wrote here in a long time, youll find my signature probably like 100-150 pages ago so im no new to Maverick, only legacy deck ive played past couple years (in tournaments). First of course the good'ol GW build and after testing ( losing to everything ) with it again for fun i decided i just need to use some of the cards that are better ( BoB / Thoughtseize / Abrupt Decay ) than some in the old list ( too many Oozes / Qasalis / etc. ) and updated it couple months ago. Since then the deck has been performing really well and before the tournaments and scouting the metagame ive made only slight changes. I went to local stores legacy wednesday couple weeks ago and 4-0'd and then last weekend i played at 40 people tournament at Tampere, Finland and heres a quick recap what happened.

First of all this is the list ive perfected after a lot of playtesting and experience with different variations and interactions of Maverick. ( live with my mates and "some" time spent on MWS )

Lands:

1 x Plains
1 x Forest
1 x Gaea's Cradle
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Maze of Ith
1 x Scrubland
2 x Bayou
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Savannah
4 x Wasteland

Creatures:

1 x Scryb Ranger
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Knight of the Reliquary

Instant & Sorcery:

4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Thoughtseize

Enchantment & Artifact:

1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

3 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 x Duress
1 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Karakas
1 x Bojuka Bog
2 x Relic of Progenitus
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Enlightened Tutor
1 x Sigarda, Host of Herons

So this is the list without metagame adjustments. After snooping around and asking people about the meta i decided to switch 3 x Thalia in and take 2 x Thoughtseize and 1 x Gaddock teeg out. Also i took my 2nd Enlightened Tutor out of the SB and replaced it with 2nd Duress.


So its 11 o'clock at the sunday morning and im chatting with my friend about the fact that i bet out of all the ppl im gonna get randomized versus him cause that has happened in every standard tournament in past 2 - 3 months and i really didnt want to face him cause he played Omnitell. So the inevitable happens and i really got paired against him. I cant do anything else than just laugh.

Game 1, Omnitell

g1 i miss GW maverick cause when he casts show and tell and the table looked something like : Deathrite, Ooze, BoB, and fresh KotR from s'n't and opposing side has Emrakul and 0 cards in hand. But as you can see by looking my decklist, that the list is so tight i have to keep Karakas on the SB and i scoop in misery. g2 i dont remember much, he mulled down to 5 i think and i get hatebears to handle the things. g3 my opening hand looks really good but the problem is that he will start. First turn Mom followed by thalia slows him down and then i get to GSZ for gaddock teeg. Hes at 3 life and show and tell's Omnisciense to the table, thinks abit and tells me hes one mana short cause of thalia and shakes my hand. Phew, im smiling and cant stop it. Worst matchup won as a first game promises good. Result: 2-1

Game 2, Esper Deathblade

Matchup that i was waiting and when i saw first lands hit the ground i knew that im not supposed to lose this, abrupt decay is the nuts in this one and after miserable draws on game 2 i win pretty easily the game 3 too. I didnt know my opponent well, only thing was that i heard hes a good player, as a sidepoint he came to me in some point and asked me if i wanna buy the deck cause hes bored playing it :D Not much else to tell about this game. Result 2-1

Game 3 Reanimator

I just hate the deck, i mean i would never ever touch reanimator so of course im forced to play against it, thank you gods of magic.. g1 he gets turn 3 Iona but after thinking like 5 minutes he says "black" cause he has played against me when i played my friends "Rock" so he fears Liliana. I topdeck Ooze 1 turn too late and he hits with Iona. Next turn i topdeck Maze of Ith and then starts the sitting. After a while he casts Show and Tell and slams down Griselbrand but meanwhile my shaman has done some work and ive gotten him down to 8 so he cant activate Grisles ridonkulous ability, i slammed down allmighty Bob who then immediatly helps me to find Stop and i say bye bye to mister Griselbrand. My Ooze has gotten bigger than hes Iona and eventhough he gets to cheat Elesh Norn into play, Ooze drives me home safely. g2 is all about my SB and wasteland, i think he had max 1 land the whole game. Result 2-0

Game 4, BR Zombartment

I really didnt know well what im facing but i was confident that i should be the runner up in this one. Game 1 once again Abrupt Decay and Stop handles the early Blasting station and creatures while Bob digs me Jitte and after opponent sees it he says " lets go for the other ". In 2nd game my turn 1 Thoughtseize shows me Contamination that i quickly tell him to discard. After that its all Bob and when Jitte shows up the game is over. I have to give props for the nice brew though. Result : 4-0

After this starts the calculation, can i ID allready? I get paired with Oops, Allspells and i just hope my opponent wants to ID and he does. We watch others play and chat abit.

Then i get paired against UWR Delver/Geist and again we do little math and decide to ID cause we both get top 4 like this and get the " hey i dont need a die roll to start these games " . I want to play against him for fun and he agrees. Game 1 and 3 are easy ( like last time we played eachother ) but in game 2 i keep the worst hand of the day ( maybe cause it wasnt so serioius game ) and Geist kills me quite fast. Its a really good matchup for me and i hope we meet at top 8.

So after all the dust has settled i see myself positioned at 2nd place after Swizz. Then i see who im gonna face and start crying inside, TES.. one of the matchups that can be too fast for me. The other thing i was missing was my thoughtseizes in the sideboard. At least i get to start the game.

Top 8 Quarters, TES

I play turn 1 Deathrite and he ponders. Im getting a little optimistic at this point cause he has nonbasic in play and i have 2 wastelands in hand. I play Bob and waste hes land and pass. Next turn he puts another nonbasic into play and brainstorms. Bob gives me gas and i waste the other land. Bob drives me home with a little help and im amazed that i won TES game 1 without any hatebears, sometimes you get lucky. Game 2 he doesnt have the combo pieces ready as fast as he needed and i get to turn 1 duress, turn 2 thalia, turn 3 ethersworn canonist and turn 4 gaddock teeg with GSZ. He thinks out hes options and quickly shakes my hand. At this point im already happy cause ive won 2 really hard matchups.

Im gonna write the rest tomorrow since i noticed its 4.26 am..

If and when you guys wanna ask " why this card and why not that card " or any other questions about this deck or maverick overall, hit me. And after reading the previous posts and playing with and against punishing fire Mav, ( not trying to undermine it at all, its totally functional card and strategy ) in a cardgame that theres punishing fire vs abrupt decay, i would bet my chips on abrupt decay any day. That is cause the current meta ( not only here, as said i practice vs all the tier 1 decks ) is what it is and decay just does more overall than punishing fire. But im encouraging you to test both and find the right one for yourself, as long as you play Maverick you cant go wrong :)

-Telkku

How was Dark Confidant? Did he do any work?

[Barook]

I'm rather interested how you can justify running MD Cradle, but can't fit in Karakas in the MD because of space issues.

[Telkku]

Okay, after long day ill tell the rest.

Semifinals, ANT

My happiness that i got from the win over TES shrugs off fast cause i see what im about to face, from a ditch to another. g1 starts and my opponent casts turn 3 ETW and my Ooze and Shammy are facing 14 goblins. Thank god my hand contains Jitte and i get him down to 1 token and 6 life, he tendrils me for 8 and i go down to 1 but shammy and jitte keeps me alive. Then turn before i got the win in my grasp he topdecks the mana acceleration ( cabal ritual ) for PiF and im devastated. After tough start i got myself thinking i won this one but i was wrong. I have to mention this game i made some mistakes first time the whole day and without those i wouldve actually won the game. g2 is easy win with hatebears cause i had the start. g3 i have a good hand containing GSZ, Ooze, Duress, 2 x Thalia and Enlightened tutor with some lands. The worst case scenario happens and he names Thalia for cabal therapy, i shake my head but i know rest of the hand is still ok and i have a chance. I duress him and slow him down so he cant combo in the 2nd turn. Then i topdeck mother of runes and play it and hope for the best. He just ponders, plays a land and passes. EOT i cast tutor for Canonist. On my turn i cast GSZ and fetch my teddybear teeg to the heat of the battle, my opponent hoped i wouldve played Canonist cause he had massacre in hand. Next turn i cast ooze followed by canonist. Next turn he tries something and has alot of storm and mana, im a little worried about whats gonna happen but he just wanted to scare me for the fun of it and then he scoops. Then i turn around and ask who's my final opponent and when i get the answer i get really confident.

Final, UWR Delver / Geist

Finally a real game vs this deck. I know that odds favor me and i get to start. Head judge takes a picture from my starting hand cause its just amazing, everything is perfect. Game doesnt last long cause Bob stays out and gives me once again card advantage and i think i had 4 removals. g2 i get another nut hand. He shakes hes head but says keep. Plays land and delver. I play land and Stop which he dazes. Next turn he flips delver and plays the same land. I get to play Bob and pass. Hes stuck on 1 land, i know that i have everything to lose here so i play really safely. After destroying 2 x engineered explosives with decays before he could explode them he says " ye its prolly over, but lets see ". We play couple turns until i have 4 creatures and i cast Stoneforge mystic fetch jitte, then fetch Cradle with my KotR and equip jitte and he says GG. Im feeling really good eventhough this match was like a vacation after the TES and ANT matchups. For the price i get FTV 20 pack and 20 credits to the Finnish "SCG" Store called Poromagia. Overall deck worked as intended.


Cards that black gives us are incredible powerlevel boost to the deck and as said before ive played my share with other variations, especially with GW and i can say with these cards available to us, theres no going back for me. Abrupt Decay just handles much more than just creatures. For example Liliana is really good versus maverick. It destroys all the tough enchantments and much more. BoB shares the nomination as MVP of the deck with MoM and KotR, how do you win games? With card advantage and this is the best card there is. And if opponent uses removal for it, it saves your KotR or other threats they would normally need to deal. Thoughtseize and Duress with all the hatebears just increase your odds vs bad combo matchups. And shaman has won me games by doing damage by removing instants / sorceries, so its not here only for the mana or life. For example in the matchup vs Reanimator i wouldve lost without it. Plus it blocks critical mobs like Goblin Lackey and it can get counters to Jitte in defense unlike Noble Hierarch ( whom i still love ).

Then to the Gaea's Cradle. If you would playtest this deck for a while you would immediatly understand why but heres the reasons. First of all the deck just cant have 2 pure white mana sources, in the testing period i had hands with plains and karakas meaning 90% mulligan. 2nd and more important thing is that Karakas sometimes and i mean rarely wins you game ones and i know you can bounce your thalia for defence " yippee!!.." but thats not how you win the game. Ive won the games cause of Gaea's Cradle countless times, fetching it with KotR early game or just from hand cause i have couple mobs and arbor, then you either get to find Jitte with your Mystic or its in your hand. Cradle just gives you the winning plays with jitte, so many times opponent think that the board state is fine for him and then you play jitte with cradle, equip and attack and use the remaining lands to swap it for defense and many times its just GG after this. Would never happen turn 3 - 4 without Cradle. Now your gonna say " its only 3 off in your deck " but thats when BoB comes in, he is just incredible guy who gives me more gas ( for example jitte ). Then theres Cradle + Ooze which has won me several games too, giving me ways to beat for example Dredge in game one. Then the ways to play GSZ and another threat early on at the same time and last but not the least after sideboarding Cradle gives me way to fetch early Sigarda which is one of the best cards in many matchups ( for example Jund, Rock, Mirror, Bug ). It has just more purpose than Karakas overall and atleast i use it in 50-75% of my games. Karakas, not so much. Of course i had Karakas MD when i played GW.

Best way to see how much the black gives you is to sleeve up Dark Maverick and give it to your friend ( who knows how to play it, cause maverick is not easy one to play ) and play against it with your GW version and see what happens. Main thing is that Maverick overall is still viable and really fun deck to play, so dont give up on it!

-Telkku

[Papu]

Guys,

how is the maverick in a field full of combos??

[Fatal]

Dark Maverick with Thalia MD and 4 discard - not bad ;) - you should named those comb-decks then use proper MD hate to fight against them, discard + hatebears looks probably best in Maverick vs combo's you can also play Mindbreak Traps vs some kind of them, more over Phyrexian Revoker can also handle Sneak Attack or LED/Belcher activation, GY dependent combos are finghing by Shamans and Oozes, you can also add Bojuka Bog MD as additional Knight of the Reliquary target.

Maverick has probably all tools which can fight most combo decks - all you need is to gather information about your future meta-play and build proper list :).

Red splash on other hand have answers like REB which isn't bad vs S&T/High Tide combos.

[Papu]

Dark Maverick with Thalia MD and 4 discard - not bad ;) - you should named those comb-decks then use proper MD hate to fight against them, discard + hatebears looks probably best in Maverick vs combo's you can also play Mindbreak Traps vs some kind of them, more over Phyrexian Revoker can also handle Sneak Attack or LED/Belcher activation, GY dependent combos are finghing by Shamans and Oozes, you can also add Bojuka Bog MD as additional Knight of the Reliquary target.

Maverick has probably all tools which can fight most combo decks - all you need is to gather information about your future meta-play and build proper list :).

Red splash on other hand have answers like REB which isn't bad vs S&T/High Tide combos.

My meta have:

Esper
S&T
Storm
High Tide
Omnihall
Reanimate

This is the field, maybe I'm forgetting someone...

[Koby]

My meta have:

Esper
S&T
Storm
High Tide
Omnihall
Reanimate

This is the field, maybe I'm forgetting someone...

Maverick may not be a good choice if this represents a large portion of your metagame. Show & Tell decks are really hard for Maverick to beat on a consistent basis.

[Barook]

Maverick may not be a good choice if this represents a large portion of your metagame. Show & Tell decks are really hard for Maverick to beat on a consistent basis.
As far as Sneak & Show is concerned, the only permanent that can give you really trouble is Sneak Attack since it can get around Karakas with Emrakul.

As long as you can keep Teeg alive (and don't have S&T to circumvent him) or block it with a Revoker, you're good to go. Keep a KotR in hand and wait for them to play S&T --> next turn fetch Karakas --> bingo.

Omnitell is an unwinnable bitch of a match-up, though, even with discard.

Overall, I agree with Koby that Maverick most likely doesn't perform well in such a meta.

[ironclad8690]

As far as Sneak & Show is concerned, the only permanent that can give you really trouble is Sneak Attack since it can get around Karakas with Emrakul.

As long as you can keep Teeg alive (and don't have S&T to circumvent him) or block it with a Revoker, you're good to go. Keep a KotR in hand and wait for them to play S&T --> next turn fetch Karakas --> bingo.

Omnitell is an unwinnable bitch of a match-up, though, even with discard.

Overall, I agree with Koby that Maverick most likely doesn't perform well in such a meta.

I have had pretty good success against omnitell, though I do not know that the pilots were very good. Generally the lock needed against them is Turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Teeg to stop the big spells, and knight or karakas to stop show and tell into emrakul. Thalia can give you just enough of a clock too. I run 3 ethersworn cannonist in my board, and that will generally provide the needed hate in games 2 or 3 (combined with either mom or sylvan safekeeper). Occasionally you can "get" them with discard, but protected hatebears are the best way to go in my experience. Having 2 caverns MD really helps in getting cannonist through, or teeg in a pinch.

[Barook]

Generally the lock needed against them is Turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Teeg to stop the big spells
That isn't a lock - they'll just fetch Wipe Away and you're boned. If you give pro blue in response to the Cunning Wish, they fetch Slaughter Pact instead.

It's kind of frustrating how much they can ignore our hatebears if your opponent isn't a trained monkey. I've seen my opponents punch through ridiculously protected hatewalls with ease thanks to access to their entire deck and free spells. Your bears can buy another turn at best.

Discard is also quite limited between a potential Leyline and Brainstorm.

Against a good opponent, you either need to get lucky or have a Pridemage/O-Ring ready to dismantle their Omniscience in response to hope for the best.

[Vandalize]

If you're facing Omnitell too much, just pack 3 Trinisphere in your board. That's da stuff.

[Barook]

If you're facing Omnitell too much, just pack 3 Trinisphere in your board. That's da stuff.
Sideboard slots are premium, though. Where else do you bring it in? It's probably too slow against storm in most cases.

Telkku's list got me thinking, though - what's the exact reason most Dark Maverick lists don't run Bob?

[thefreakaccident]

I'm not saying that trinisphere is for this deck, but it itself is excellent against a wide range of decks packing significant numbers of 1-2 cmc cards (most of the DTB's in recent history). Elves, delver (if it resolves), storm, show, etc. I hope I am stating the obvious.

[Vandalize]

Sideboard slots are premium, though. Where else do you bring it in? It's probably too slow against storm in most cases.

Telkku's list got me thinking, though - what's the exact reason most Dark Maverick lists don't run Bob?

If one plays Oblivion Ring in the board, why not Trinisphere?

People might say: "Oh, Oblivion Ring does solve Planeswalkers, and herp derp." I haven't ORinged a Jace or Liliana in almost 2 years playing GW Maverick. I don't know if that's me, but Mom + Dude is good enough to deal with Mr. Mindsculptor.

[Fatal]

I admit that Vandalize can have right - Orings are useful only vs Stax (didnt play against this deck in regular tournament since 2011), MUD, Enchantress and other narrow MU mostly - Once I Oring Humility which was hugh against Miracles - but since they mostly drop it - I'm thinking about Trinisphere as mulitpile - with virtual 8 mana dorks it is same has same speed as Canonist/Gaddock vs Storm decks, it is also better vs all those cascade BUG's, where Canonist sometimes do nothing (for example Shardless Agent.

Most of the time after turn 2 most your spells (except removal) cost 3 or 4 since you put real threads (KotRs or GSZ for answers which are mostly cmc=2).

[diakocjay]

Has anyone tried using Tidehallow Sculler on a Dark Maverick? I mean it disrupts the hand, not affected by thalia, and you have a body to attack/block.

[Telkku]

Sideboard slots are premium, though. Where else do you bring it in? It's probably too slow against storm in most cases.

Telkku's list got me thinking, though - what's the exact reason most Dark Maverick lists don't run Bob?

I dont have a clue why they dont play it, its one of the best cards in the format and card draw wins me most of the games vs other fair decks.

I know that Omnitell is a horrible matchup but its winnable. Besides the win in the tournament ive won it many times at practice. Of course you need luck but same goes for TES cause it can sometimes spin at the first turn. Main thing is to mulligan aggressively to get the hate cards. 2 x hate in hand is a go, less means GG. Best start would be turn 1 Mom/Discard, turn2 Thalia/Teeg and then after this try and get Canonist. I just had a discussion last night with 2 omnitell players who both said that its 5-10 % of the games they show and tell Emrakul to the table for the win, so thats not the way we need to be afraid. O-ring is just not good vs Omni eventhough they show and tell it in, most times they tutor trickbind or just combo straight away. I still think Sneak and Show is the worst matchup for maverick by far cause even karakas doesnt help at all vs sneak attack, but thank god people dont play it as much anymore cause theyr going towards onmitell.

[Barook]

Update on the Dark Punisher Maverick build: I'll have to rework the manabase since its greediness reared its ugly head lately after initial good results. Not sure if it's possible to have a workable manabase in the end since Grove of the Burnwillows is necessary, yet a huge obstacle for a stable manabase, unlike in Jund.


If one plays Oblivion Ring in the board, why not Trinisphere?

People might say: "Oh, Oblivion Ring does solve Planeswalkers, and herp derp." I haven't ORinged a Jace or Liliana in almost 2 years playing GW Maverick. I don't know if that's me, but Mom + Dude is good enough to deal with Mr. Mindsculptor.
I rarely use O-Ring as permanent removal either - fair enough.

It's mainly there as an answer to S&T threats - while Trinisphere solves Omniscience, it doesn't help against Emrakul.

@Fatal: Versus Storm decks, you rather want to go T1 discard, T2 hatebear in the ideal case. T1 mana dork into T2 "lost the game already" when they're on the play isn't the best strategy, hence the black splash for discard in the first place.

@Telkku: Sure, they can wish for Trickbind if they have Cunning Wish, but it's the general problem with permanent-based hate against them and why hatebears suck so much in this match-up. I don't think that Sneak & Show is that bad. Your primary goal is to disable the activation of Sneak Attack at all cost, since S&T into KotR --> Karakas is bad news for them.

[Telkku]

Of course that works but Sneak Attack is the bigger problem since you can just fling in emrakul again and again and usually they SnT Grislebrand when they see what were playing. And back to Omni, key is to have 2 x hatebears and that turn 1-2 discard usually helps to slow them down abit + lets not forget wasteland. I mean of course its bad MU but as said its still winnable.

Back to BoB and another reason why it is so good. When you start with turn 1 Mom or Shammy, opponent has to remove Mom immediatly or hes screwed, shammy sometimes. This means he has 1 less removal which means Bob has larger chance to stay alive and thats good cause BoB is another "has to be removed" target. Even 1 card drawn from it can change the course into your favor. And if they still have more removal it means the coast is for sure clear for your KotR. Ive played alot of games vs Rock and every and i mean literally every time the winner is the guy who gets to keep BoB on the field and that showcases how good it is, cause we pack threats and if we have more than a BUG player, he just cant get rid of them all. And this is one reason i dont run any other equip than jitte. You just need threats and its too big commitment to cast stoneforge mystic to fetch a sword, put it into play, equip just to see it suck up Abrupt Decay. Jitte does everything you need. I used to play 1 sword in GW build but now theres just so much better choices.

[Barook]

Of course that works but Sneak Attack is the bigger problem since you can just fling in emrakul again and again and usually they SnT Grislebrand when they see what were playing. And back to Omni, key is to have 2 x hatebears and that turn 1-2 discard usually helps to slow them down abit + lets not forget wasteland. I mean of course its bad MU but as said its still winnable.

Back to BoB and another reason why it is so good. When you start with turn 1 Mom or Shammy, opponent has to remove Mom immediatly or hes screwed, shammy sometimes. This means he has 1 less removal which means Bob has larger chance to stay alive and thats good cause BoB is another "has to be removed" target. Even 1 card drawn from it can change the course into your favor. And if they still have more removal it means the coast is for sure clear for your KotR. Ive played alot of games vs Rock and every and i mean literally every time the winner is the guy who gets to keep BoB on the field and that showcases how good it is, cause we pack threats and if we have more than a BUG player, he just cant get rid of them all. And this is one reason i dont run any other equip than jitte. You just need threats and its too big commitment to cast stoneforge mystic to fetch a sword, put it into play, equip just to see it suck up Abrupt Decay. Jitte does everything you need. I used to play 1 sword in GW build but now theres just so much better choices.
How's your BUG Shardless match-up?

I'm still can't find a valid reason why people ignored Bob so far. It's a must-kill threat that can even be protected by Mom. Aside from KotR, a potential Sword of X and Y or Batterskull, the curve of Maverick is pretty low and the deck has quite a few ways to gain life back. So curve reasons are out of question.

[Telkku]

How's your BUG Shardless match-up?

I'm still can't find a valid reason why people ignored Bob so far. It's a must-kill threat that can even be protected by Mom. Aside from KotR, a potential Sword of X and Y or Batterskull, the curve of Maverick is pretty low and the deck has quite a few ways to gain life back. So curve reasons are out of question.

We'll ive played my share of games vs opposing dark mavericks and they all had BoB. And as you can see my highest mana cost spell is 3, so if i have 2 BoB's in hand i will cast them both asap. We have alot of ways to get life. Last option is to stop our own guy and in many situations you can do dmg with BoB cause opponent doesnt want to kill it cause their dumb enough to think your gonna die to it. For example many times ive done the following; draw the card from bob and i would go to 0, options, jitte counters, ooze, shaman or StoP to our own guy. I remember many occasions where i StoP'd my own knight for 5 or more life and top decked 1 more with BoB + the normal draw, and i allready had huge board presence. And meanwhile Bob was dealing dmg. I dont really get the batterskull thing though, ive tried it many times but after extensive testing ive come to a conclusion that its not really needed. I know some ppl just love it and would never cut it, but at least try sometime without, maybe you will notice the same and cut it out, or... feel the opposite :D

Bug has been a good matchup. Id say ive won bout 75% of those games. Their issue once again is MoM + BoB. If i get turn 1 mom and turn 2 BoB they are screwed. I get to draw more cards than they. My threats are alot better than theirs. Jace is not so big problem either cause at the point they jam jace we got bigger board presence, and Scryb Ranger shines in this MU. But again vs BUG less equip and more threats is just the key. They have limited amount of removal and 1st game they have 4 FoW which means they have to 2 for 1. So if you lay down.. well basically any of our guys they "should" remove them but they just cant. Also wastelock has been really good for me, you just really need to kill their Deathrite immediatly and they will kneel.

[diakocjay]

We'll ive played my share of games vs opposing dark mavericks and they all had BoB. And as you can see my highest mana cost spell is 3, so if i have 2 BoB's in hand i will cast them both asap. We have alot of ways to get life. Last option is to stop our own guy and in many situations you can do dmg with BoB cause opponent doesnt want to kill it cause their dumb enough to think your gonna die to it. For example many times ive done the following; draw the card from bob and i would go to 0, options, jitte counters, ooze, shaman or StoP to our own guy. I remember many occasions where i StoP'd my own knight for 5 or more life and top decked 1 more with BoB + the normal draw, and i allready had huge board presence. And meanwhile Bob was dealing dmg. I dont really get the batterskull thing though, ive tried it many times but after extensive testing ive come to a conclusion that its not really needed. I know some ppl just love it and would never cut it, but at least try sometime without, maybe you will notice the same and cut it out, or... feel the opposite :D

Bug has been a good matchup. Id say ive won bout 75% of those games. Their issue once again is MoM + BoB. If i get turn 1 mom and turn 2 BoB they are screwed. I get to draw more cards than they. My threats are alot better than theirs. Jace is not so big problem either cause at the point they jam jace we got bigger board presence, and Scryb Ranger shines in this MU. But again vs BUG less equip and more threats is just the key. They have limited amount of removal and 1st game they have 4 FoW which means they have to 2 for 1. So if you lay down.. well basically any of our guys they "should" remove them but they just cant. Also wastelock has been really good for me, you just really need to kill their Deathrite immediatly and they will kneel.


How do you fight engineered plague? Since most of your creatures are humans. Have you considered adding more cavern of souls? In your decklist, how bout adding a garruk relentless?

[Barook]

Are there any realistic ways to tutor for Punishing Fire and maybe Life from the Loam? There's Gamble and Entomb, but neither seem like great choices, especially with DRS around.

[Megadeus]

Sideboard slots are premium, though. Where else do you bring it in? It's probably too slow against storm in most cases.

Telkku's list got me thinking, though - what's the exact reason most Dark Maverick lists don't run Bob?

Meh Trini comes down on T2 for this deck alot. T1 Mana dork (or GSZ for arbor) T2 Trini. I think that is plenty fast enough. Me and my friend have discussed the possibilities of playing it if Storm ever got popular in our meta again.

[Vandalize]

Bob can really be good in Maverick. It would definitely take those Sylvan Library slots and maybe some other weak slots (like Aven Mindcensor).

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [25]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells [12]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Pretty hard to fit Bob and discard maindeck. I put all my discard pieces on the board, and can bring them when relevant. Trinisphere is awesome, and Pithing Needle is working non-stop these days.

[Barook]

Bob can really be good in Maverick. It would definitely take those Sylvan Library slots and maybe some other weak slots (like Aven Mindcensor).

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [25]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells [12]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Pretty hard to fit Bob and discard maindeck. I put all my discard pieces on the board, and can bring them when relevant. Trinisphere is awesome, and Pithing Needle is working non-stop these days.
You could also switch three discard spells with Thalia and move her to the SB, but I guess that's personal preference.

Where did you bring in Trinisphere? I'm currently testing a single Thorn of Amethyst (tech copied from Sunyveil) as an E-Tutor target alternative to Thalia, simply due to space issues.

Also report back on the performance of Bob. After watching Sunyveil's stream of his last Legacy DE, he seems really good (although Sunyveil is rather sceptical). I don't feel like dropping another 100 bucks for a playset of Bobs yet unless he's really good, so I'm interested.

[Telkku]

I dont get the skepticism about bob. If you play black you play it, period. It is the best black card and one of the best cards overall at this format.

[Telkku]

Bob can really be good in Maverick. It would definitely take those Sylvan Library slots and maybe some other weak slots (like Aven Mindcensor).

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [25]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg

Spells [12]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Pretty hard to fit Bob and discard maindeck. I put all my discard pieces on the board, and can bring them when relevant. Trinisphere is awesome, and Pithing Needle is working non-stop these days.

My opinion about this is that not playing 4 Deathrites is a huge mistake. Its really good card vs many decks and its a very good card to speed up the early game. 2nd thing is about the decay vs 2nd qasali, ooze and stoneforge. Without equipments Stoneforge Mystic is vanilla 1 / 2 so its just 1000 times better to draw jitte. And once again Jitte is they equip to go with. I guess some ppl just like batterskull but there really is no need for it and when you draw it first time from BoB or have it in your opening hand you will understand. Key is to be able to play anything anytime and thats why keeping the curve is important. There is so much removal too that when you go and get batterskull and opponent kills your Mystic you just have useless card in your hand. Maze of Ith MD i guess is arguable but so many times it is the card you want. I will predict problems with your mana base.

[Telkku]

How do you fight engineered plague? Since most of your creatures are humans. Have you considered adding more cavern of souls? In your decklist, how bout adding a garruk relentless?

I sideboard. Thats why Thoughtseize is so good too. You can take the MoM's away if your afraid of it and of course Qasali and Decay destroy it. Cavern of souls takes away one really needed mana source and you can flood the table cause i have so many creatures. I tested garruk and its ok and if i would add it, it would be to the sideboard. I have enough removal without it and its 4 cmc and the curve should be as low as possible, so basically it doesnt bring anything that the deck doesnt allready do.

[Telkku]

Oh and @Vandalize, why would you ever play IOK over Thoughtseize or Duress? It doesnt remove important cards like Ad Nauseam, Sneak attack, Hive mind, Omni and numerous other cards.