[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Normally I wouldn't bother to respond to trolls, but he is apparantly trolling with heavy Mod support which is very odd but certainly makes this discussion inevitable.

It's weird that the mods would support discussions where a claim is subjected to critique. It is like they think this is a forum for discussing ideas and not a masturbatory exercise in mutual congratulation.



How can CorpT get moderated but not IBA despite being condescending

I am sorry if you felt condescended to.


insulting

If you are insulted by someone saying one of your cards is unplayable, you need to rapidly thicken your skin. I deal with this on a pretty regular basis and I don't think I've ever expressed shock that someone arguing that a card I run is crap wasn't moderated for it.


unconstructive

I made numerous points and cited actual numbers. You are clearly not using this word correctly.


and using the word "fuck" every second sentence?

Racist.


Also he is very much wrong (not that being wrong should be moderated but it makes his post even more annoying).

Well I am glad that intellectually at least, your recognize that people should be moderated strictly because you disagree with their statements. That's progress of a sort.


Hey IBA, are you as sure about all your posts as you were about Batterskull and Jace TMS being unplayable. I remember you posting "you fucks this is Legacy you can't play these crappy expensive cards" about both of them?

No. This is for several reasons,

1) Those are two cases of probably hundreds we have discussed over the years regarding new cards. Usually, if anything, I err too much on the side of rating a new card as playable (although of course what is playable is not the same as what is played for a host of reasons). Jace I misvalued for several reasons, many the same as R&D: There hadn't been a reusable Fateseal ability before to gauge against, and there hadn't been a four-function Planeswalker before. Batterskull I did not foresee being played in a pure-control shell, but then neither did anyone else. In those shells it's reasonable, although I'm not sure if it will stand the test of time. In creature-based decks, which is what the SCD thread was about, it has already been largely dropped; most of the successful Maverick lists did not use it, in fact.

2) Scryb Ranger and Mangara are not new cards or unknown factors. They are known quantities. Scryb Ranger is in utility a 2x as expensive version of another card with flying as a big whopping deal.


Not that people can't be wrong about stuff, we all are, but it just reminds me.

I think you are exactly trying to say that someone can't be wrong about stuff.

If someone isn't wrong about things then they aren't trying hard enough and they're being intellectual cowards. I fully admit I misevaluated Jace. As far as arguments for why Scryb Ranger is playable goes that one's pretty terrible.


With the exact same condescending attitude you sold it as if everyone who thought Batterskull or Jace TMS were even remotely playable in this format was completely retarded.

If you think that pieces of cardboard can be condescended to, or you take it as a personal attack that someone insults your card, stop, walk away from the computer, and take a six month sabbatical from Magic.


I honestly can't believe that the mods changed the topic of this thread just because of this. IBA and Zilla have their history but this is still ridiculous. I have not experienced biased Mods on an important topic on this site so far and it is not a pleasant premiere.

I posted actual numbers backing my point. Do you want to make a counter-argument? I mean these are not the Halls of Congress, I do not think the mods consider it a life-altering decision to change the first letter in brackets in the thread's title. The reality is that this was put in the DTB section based on an incredible variance of decklists that fully justifies describing it as an archetype.


And now let me carefully explain to you just how bad IBA's post was:

a) writing style: if you would remove all filler words like "clearly", "in the year of the lord", "obvious", "fuck" etc. and then cut all the mocking then the post would not be very long anymore.

You are trying to say that my writing style is bad because if you remove X, Y, and Z then it suddenly doesn't make any sense.

Did you know that if you removal every other vowel and the word 'the' Shakespeare reads like a retard.


b) core: He is criticizing that there is no core to the list. Which is basically the only statement of his expletive-inflated post.
The base list that he presents is deceptive. He uses only 15 lands which might be the result of statistical filtering but says absolutely nothing. It is just normal that people use different Fetchlands and different fetchable lands for different expected Metagames. He also uses only 3 GSZ, no Mother of Runes, 2 Qasali Pridemages, 2 SFMs and 2 KotR.
But if you followed the discussion over last pages a core list with more of each of the cards mentioned above was clearly visible.

Right, which is why I explicitly said that my post was based on the decks that actually performed and not people in this thread saying that X Y or Z was a "core card" based on their own opinion.


If you disect decks like this you would have to rename Landstill, MUC and Zoo to "archetype" instead of "deck" too. It is just the nature of these decks to vary because of the many cards with a similar power level. If Wizards would print a 6/6 Tombstalker for a few Mana more I am sure the same would happen to Team America.

There is a very viable argument that Legacy is moving more towards archetypes than decks per se, mostly modular decklists dominating, a few exceptions like Merfolk aside. Even under such an argument however, these decks are high offenders. Like there are actually different threads for color combinations of Landstill, and that is a deck that has a clear and distinct core strategy (manlands + Standstill as a draw engine) that differentiates it from the format.


c) Scryb Ranger is better than Tarmogoyf in most Maverick lists. The synergies with Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch and KotR make Rangers so good. Paying one Mana more to upgrade a Quirion Ranger with 3 very useful abilities and frequently productive abilities is very much worth it.

Flash is not relevant on a 1x Scryb Ranger because you are casting it with GSZ.

And since you're casting it with GSZ, 3 mana is much more than 2 mana.

Flying and pro-blue are relevant but not on a 1/1 unless it's equipped in which case it already has much more relevant abilities. And since the slot is utility, not equipment carrying, it seems less than worthwhile to run it over the original.


ATM the correct number of Tarmogoyfs is either 1 or 0. It does nothing that the deck wants a creature to do.

Winning the game is something I want my creatures to do, but I can understand that if you enjoy piddling around with untap effects for a bunch of turns instead of just killing the other guy that it may not be something you want to do.


d) Sylvan Library. Yeah, why isn't card draw/filtering an Auto Include in an aggressive Tempo deck without Reach? My goodness. There was a discussion about this and we agreed on the card being good but no auto-include. A final conclusion on such a topic is just not possible because of the high variance of the card just like with Elspeth, Knight Errant.

Wow it's amazing how you're arguing my point for me.

If you can't even have a coherent conversation about Sylvan Library then it's not a decktype.

PS You can anyway. Play Sylvan Library.

PPS Most of these lists are not aggressive. Also describing a deck as "tempo-oriented" makes me want to start pulling teeth. EVERY DECK IS TEMPO ORIENTED IT UTILIZES INTERNAL SYNERGIES TO CROSS-COMPATIBALIZE STREAMLINED INNOVATIONS.


On a side note, how safe is the credibility of the site if Friend A of Mod B just hijacks a DTB forum thread and changes its topic while having put up neither any kind of results nor a single constructive sentence to its discussion.

You're flailing, I clearly demonstrated that the deck has no core at all beyond "some g/w deck using Zeniths."

I have not actually insulted the deck itself because Zenith is a great card btw, I just think Scryb Ranger is terrible and Mangara-Vial is more cute than effective.


@TheInfamousBearAssassin - I think you are ignorant - You post Zoo list in GW Maverick thread, that's first of all

I did not post a Zoo list in this thread, soooooooo...


Running more than 1-of Goyf is wrong in Maverick - better pick up Scavenging Ooze which is Goyf killer, and also great in KotR fight.

Running 1 + GSZ is significantly better than running 0, obviously. Winning the game seems to be consistently under-rated.


Maverick is a toolbox deck - you pick up meta slots and elements which best fit to your playstyle - it's similar to Survival decks.

Survival had a distinct core component. Even then it was an archetype. There were different threads for different builds. With no distinct core component except GSZ, Maverick is clearly then an archetype by your own admission. I'm glad we've come to an agreement then.

Again, I have accidentally built decks in this vein several times on MWS. GSZ is a really cool card and g/w obviously has a lot of great cards. And certainly if nothing else I'm glad to see a deck playing Witness again. But the deck being described as a DTB is clearly erroneous as it stands.


Next word about Scryb Ranger - if you don't see its abilities and think its 1/1 prot U vanilia forget about playing this deck - its much more skill intensive than burn/sligh/zoo ;].

You're probably not very good with Zoo.


This little dude has a lot of great interactions in this deck (so does Quirion Ranger) I think Scryb is more universal not only for Merfolks where its wall and claw vs them, but also vs Cliques, Jaces, Thopters, Trygons etc.

I am pretty sure you do not need to pay 2x as much for pro blue if you already have Mother of Runes, SoFI and Jitte. Like if there were a four mana KotR that had pro blue, I would not advocate running it over the 3 mana version, would you? It's like Quirion Ranger has this super relevant ability called hyper-haste where it can enter the board a turn earlier. That is an important ability.


Sorry if I was too personal tell me if you been touched by it.

I'm good.


Scavenging Ooze - its brutal vs them.
KotR -> Karakas - shut down Iona lock/GJCA - u can Zenith it under Iona on White.
Bojuka Bog - also good
Maze of Ith - gives time for next reanimation
Tromod's Crypt under Tutor
Scryb Ranger + Equips (specially with SoLS) can block and attack under Iona Lock.
Mental Missteps (obv).

Also Loaming Shaman.


Yeah, OK, that was fun.

Some comments, such as those about library, make sense. The second major impression of the post is of course that you're a douche, but since that is obviously your intention, let's not dwell on that...

In the thread's defense though, it should be said that the deck "Maverick" actually was indeed a deck, rather different from the lists posted here now, before it got listed as DTB, got the attention of the mob, and mr-know-it-alls like you started posted in it.

This is not what the opening post suggests. If the thread is to be in the DTB section it ought to do so in a manner in line with reality.

[Nihil Credo]

Alright. /cracks knuckles

1) Content first, niceness second: this is a cardinal guideline for the Source. It doesn't matter how many 'fucking' you put in your post as long as your arguments have meat. We have no intention of forcing people to pretend they respect ideas even when they're convinced otherwise. That way lies MTGSalvation.

This might be an interesting link on the topic (http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/).

(Also, there may be a bit of cross-Atlantic incomprehension going on here. Fellow Europeans: lots of Americans love to shout and pretend they're badasses in everyday conversation, it's just part of their culture and to them it sounds normal. What can you expect? (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3050878/Castle%20Keep%20%281969%29.wav))

2) However, what are not tolerated are personal attacks. Call a deck a pile of shit, call a play fucking retarded, call a strategy the dumbest idea since Operation Unthinkable: as long as you also explain why those things are so bad, that's all fine and good and useful. The moment you call someone else an idiot, however, you're not writing anything useful: you're only making the discussion nastier without saying anything. You don't know that guy and as far as you're concerned he might be a genius in every field other than Magic. Shut up.

3) Regarding mod bias: CorpT's post consisted of "You're so smart, IBA. /pats IBA on head." I hope that says everything about why it was deleted while IBA and Tao weren't.

4) As our DTB process currently stands (i.e. follow The Council), there is absolutely no functional difference between a "Deck" and an "Archetype" To Beat. It's a relic of the old system, and a purely cosmetic description of "This deck has more deckbuilding options than usual"; Survival, pre-Vengevine, was the typical example (And yes, I personally don't care about this distinction). So no, the rules haven't been altered.

So: Tao, IBA, Fatal, do continue this conversation. There is a legitimate question of what exactly Maverick is, if for no other reason than that many of our users had never heard of it before it was put under the spotlight and don't quite understand it.

Just remember that, as far as this thread is concerned, and unless there's a really really good reason to disagree with them, the "Maverick" category at TCDecks is the measure of what does and does not belong here.

[Tacosnape]

So since my question got overshadowed by shenanigans and asshattery, in my best Cartman voice, "Screw you guys, I'm playing Primordial Hydra."

Mother of Runes plus a 3-drop who becomes a 32/32 trampler in 5 turns is enticing. It makes playing on the defensive an actual strategy.

Also, while I agree Scryb Ranger is garbage in this deck, so's Tarmogoyf. The deck has very little means to pump him, and he's very often a vanilla 2/3 given that your creatures don't die, you exile theirs, your sorceries shuffle themselves back in, and graveyards tend to end up with lands and instants a lot. Basically, Goyf's only good in matchups where you sacrifice a Pridemage. And in those matchups, just run more Pridemages.

[Tao]

You are trying to say that my writing style is bad because if you remove X, Y, and Z then it suddenly doesn't make any sense.
Did you know that if you removal every other vowel and the word 'the' Shakespeare reads like a retard.


No, I said that your post would still make as much sense as before and would be more pleasant to read if you would remove the 99% filler words and expletives.




Flash is not relevant on a 1x Scryb Ranger because you are casting it with GSZ.

And since you're casting it with GSZ, 3 mana is much more than 2 mana.

Flying and pro-blue are relevant but not on a 1/1 unless it's equipped in which case it already has much more relevant abilities. And since the slot is utility, not equipment carrying, it seems less than worthwhile to run it over the original.

If you draw it you cast it from your hand. And tutoring for a flying creature is not rare.




Wow it's amazing how you're arguing my point for me. If you can't even have a coherent conversation about Sylvan Library then it's not a decktype. PS You can anyway. Play Sylvan Library.

We had a coherent discussion about Sylvan Library. The result was that it is good, but not an auto-include. It is somewhere around the 58th- 63rd card of the deck, some value it a bit higher, some a bit lower. A more exact evaluation is impossible. Go ahead and play it if you think it is good enough.




PPS Most of these lists are not aggressive. Also describing a deck as "tempo-oriented" makes me want to start pulling teeth. EVERY DECK IS TEMPO ORIENTED IT UTILIZES INTERNAL SYNERGIES TO CROSS-COMPATIBALIZE STREAMLINED INNOVATIONS.


Capslock doesn't mean that you are right. If I call a deck Tempo oriented it means that it cares for Tempo plays much more than other decks.
BUGstill does not care about Tempo at all unless you force them to do something. If you wouldn't act then they wouldn't act on their own except for dropping Standstill to prevent any Tempo. They play cheap spells and counters to stay alive and to clear the path for Standstill but they do not care about creating a Tempo advantage in the slightest.
Many Zoo decks for example care more for life totals than GW and less about Tempo. Which is why they use PtE instead of Swords to Plowshares and high P/T creatures instead of utility creatures (Steppy Lynx over MoR, Goyf over other options). Which leads me to this:




Winning the game is something I want my creatures to do, but I can understand that if you enjoy piddling around with untap effects for a bunch of turns instead of just killing the other guy that it may not be something you want to do.


More filler words and sentences. Every card is played to win the game. And I am sure that in Maverick Scryb Ranger wins more games than Goyf.
Whenever I discussed this topic with the other people in this thread I knew they had played the deck. With you I just know that you don't have more than a couple of games on MWS as experience with this. Goyf is just not good in this deck atm, not even close or worth a discussion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your deck does not care about tempo more than most decks. All decks care about tempo, or are unplayable in Legacy. How they try to gain and maintain tempo is what varies. It is tempo to kill your land or counter a spell or Wrath the board or play a big threat.

Also there is a difference between "filler words" and "things you disagree with", unless you glaze over everything that doesn't fit into your narrative in which case I concede they are pretty much the same thing.

I would be interested in hearing what the explanation is for this "tempo oriented" deck not wanting huge creatures incidentally.

Also as far as I can tell this archetype is something the Hatfields have been fiddling with for quite a while. It would also include most NO-Bant variants. It is not an archetype I am unfamiliar with, which was my entire point; it describes a host of things that are different and already exist, ranging from big Zoo to Bant to I guess even Junk variants and D&T and numerous other things.

But I mean your arguments seem to mainly be describing things you don't like as filler and a badly thought out courtier's reply (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php) so

[Guevera59]

I guess I made a mistake posting my list in this thread. I was under the impression that Maverick was a GWx Midrange deck that supports a Stoneforge package, not a GWU Midrange Deck. I decided not to post in the Zoo thread because they are currently discussing Glittering Wish which is just not worth my time, I was hoping that this thread would be a little more constructive. Now I find out this thread refuses to play Tarmogoyf, the best creature ever printed, along with Wild Nacatl, the best one drop ever printed, Stoneforge, the best white creature ever printed, in conjunction with Knight of the Reliquary, the best three drop ever printed, and Lightnting Bolt and StP, the best removal spells ever printed. But you'd rather equip to feeble 1/1's instead of 4/5's. Someone mentioned that one should start playing more Goyfs depending on your metagame, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. It's a sad day when people start to forget the power of Tarmogoyf. You don't need a GSZ toolbox when you can just play 8x Goyfs, 8x Nacatls, and 7x Knights.

My deck cuts the cute tricks brought to you by Mother of Runes and the Rangers, and instead just plays big dudes, good removal, and practical equipment. And I got 10th at a 300 person tournament.

Sorry for posting a list with results. I suggest this thread gets its shit together and starts playing good cards.

[TossUsToLions]

Alright, to everyone who is too ignorant to accept that this is, in fact, a real deck that is actually putting up huge numbers (albeit in Europe, not in America), and too lazy/stubborn to actually read through this entire thread (yeah, i know, reading through like ten pages is such a tiresome task) and actually look through successful decklists, here is the core of GW Maverick. These cards are directly based off of the discussions in this thread and the decklists that have placed on TCDecks.

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3-4 Noble Hierarch
3-4 Mother of Runes
2-3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of X and Y
1 Batterskull
2 Sylvan Library/Elspeth split

Lands :
4 Windswept Heath
2 G fetchland
3-4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
2-3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3-4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
0-1 Gaea's Cradle


Now, on to the discussion of the absence of GOyf, it isn't played because 2/3's for 2 aren't good enough for legacy play. We play four instants and 4 sorceries that get shuffled into our libraries. Relying on our opponents playing spells to make our creatures better just isn't a good idea.

Now, please, either show me another deck that plays these 50+ cards or stop trolling in our thread and allow us to further discuss the improvement of our deck.

[Philipp2293]

Thanks, seems like a fine core.

Maybe we can discuss the new Shapeshifter from M12? He has the evasiveness the deck wants, while also being able to act as a wall. One more nail in Goyfs coffin? Maybe it could even replace Terravore?

Also, since Commander is already legal, are there already some experiences with Scavengig Ooze?

[Fatal]

I played 2 tournaments and a lot of testing on Cockatrice with Scavenging Ooze and I can say it is MVP in Goyfs/KotRs war, also its auto-include hate vs Dredge/Reanimator/Loam based decks it will definitely be one MD.

New Shapeshifter looks promising but since it's not legal or even in virtual play (Cockatrice/MWS ect) we can't say anything more about it.

[Iron Buddha]

Alright, to everyone who is too ignorant to accept that this is, in fact, a real deck that is actually putting up huge numbers (albeit in Europe, not in America), and too lazy/stubborn to actually read through this entire thread (yeah, i know, reading through like ten pages is such a tiresome task) and actually look through successful decklists, here is the core of GW Maverick. These cards are directly based off of the discussions in this thread and the decklists that have placed on TCDecks.

Creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3-4 Noble Hierarch
3-4 Mother of Runes
2-3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of X and Y
1 Batterskull
2 Sylvan Library/Elspeth split

Lands :
4 Windswept Heath
2 G fetchland
3-4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
2-3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
3-4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
0-1 Gaea's Cradle


Now, on to the discussion of the absence of GOyf, it isn't played because 2/3's for 2 aren't good enough for legacy play. We play four instants and 4 sorceries that get shuffled into our libraries. Relying on our opponents playing spells to make our creatures better just isn't a good idea.

Now, please, either show me another deck that plays these 50+ cards or stop trolling in our thread and allow us to further discuss the improvement of our deck.

But it's a slippery slope. If x = U, it's Bant; if x = B, it's The Rock.

[Fatal]

If x=B it would be one of the most aggressive Rock version, I don't see place for Hymns, Thoughtseizes, Vindicates, Deeds here. U can say also that all blue decks which have 4 x FoW, 4 x Missteps, 4 Brainstorms is the same sorry its wrong - game plan is important, also here. Splash with B brings mostly Confidants sometimes 2-3 Vindicates nothing more so its far from Rock List.

[Koby]

I guess I made a mistake posting my list in this thread. I was under the impression that Maverick was a GWx Midrange deck that supports a Stoneforge package, not a GWU Midrange Deck. I decided not to post in the Zoo thread because they are currently discussing Glittering Wish which is just not worth my time, I was hoping that this thread would be a little more constructive. Now I find out this thread refuses to play Tarmogoyf, the best creature ever printed, along with Wild Nacatl, the best one drop ever printed, Stoneforge, the best white creature ever printed, in conjunction with Knight of the Reliquary, the best three drop ever printed, and Lightnting Bolt and StP, the best removal spells ever printed. But you'd rather equip to feeble 1/1's instead of 4/5's. Someone mentioned that one should start playing more Goyfs depending on your metagame, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. It's a sad day when people start to forget the power of Tarmogoyf. You don't need a GSZ toolbox when you can just play 8x Goyfs, 8x Nacatls, and 7x Knights.

My deck cuts the cute tricks brought to you by Mother of Runes and the Rangers, and instead just plays big dudes, good removal, and practical equipment. And I got 10th at a 300 person tournament.

Sorry for posting a list with results. I suggest this thread gets its shit together and starts playing good cards.

If you're looking at this decklist from a perspective of a Zoo player, then yes the conclusion you have becomes imminent. However, the basis of the deck isn't "efficient beatsticks + removal spells". It's a toolbox deck that utilizes three powerful tutors:

a) Green Sun's Zenith
b) Stoneforge Mystic
c) Knight of the Reliquary

This lumps the deck into three distinct groups -

1) green creatures
Terravore
Qasali Pridemage
Thrun
Tarmogoyf (sometimes - it only becomes effective against other Tarmogoyf decks)
Knight of the Reliquary
2) equipment
chose 2-4 of the following - Batterskull, Sword of X and Y, Umezawa's Jitte, Manriki-Gusari
3) utility lands
Wasteland
Horizon Canopy
Maze of Ith
Gaea's Cradle


This deck contains many synergies which play off each other. This deck is NOT like Zoo in that it just casts cheap efficient threats to overwhelm/race the opponent who cannot keep up. This is the reason why this deck has a great control matchup, where Zoo falters and dies to any mass removal spell, or trump. This deck is a series of Trump-cards, rather than a collection of redundant threats.

That's neat that you got 10th in a tournament of 300. Here's a list that got 10th in a tournament of 600+:

//NAME: Zenith GW - Niklas Kronberger - 10th @ BOM 5
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Temple Garden
4 Savannah
1 Plains

4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast And Famine
1 Batterskull

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun And Moon
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

[Tao]

@IBA: There is no need for a philiosphocal discussion. Your post was flat out awful. It had two short statements that were inflated with vulgarities and condescension. I made these statements Italic and bold for you. If you find any more actual content in your jabbering feel free to inform me.

Statement one was "everybody who doesn't play multiple Tarmogoyfs, Elspeths and Sylvan Libraries is wrong ". Library and Elspeth have been discussed before and the Goyf statement pretty much says that the last 40+guys (no time to check every single list) who top8ed with Maverick are idiots. Have your opinion, but try to respect other people's test results and tournament success over your own theory.

The second statement was "Maverick is an archetype and not a deck because it has no core except for Lands, GSZ, KotR, SFM and StoP", supported by a short statistic about the last ten Maverick decks on TCD that shows that these decks only have 33 cards in common.
Unfortunately such a statistic is quite pointless because by taking a ton of decks you will always have one not playing this fetchland, one not playing Canopies and one thinking that Mother of Runes is not needed.
On top of that in a deck with usually 12 tutors the Tutor targets obviously vary without changing anything about the functionality or strategy of the deck. Morte has listed a core of this deck here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-ATB-GW-x-Maverick&p=561942&viewfull=1#post561942 but reading the thread before posting was too much to ask for. A vast majority of the decks on TCG will not vary from that 48 card core by more than 2 cards.

[Tacosnape]

Also, FWIW, this would make Deadguy Ale an archetype and not a deck, as the only three cards I've ever seen present in every single maindeck have been Scrubland, Swamp, and Dark Confidant, and the current lists are at least as scattered as Maverick.

I guess my point is that lists vary highly. My Maverick is missing a few core cards because I designed my build independent but chronologically at around the same time as Maverick. I've since picked up on some ideas from the thread and now just count the deck/archetype as Maverick. I don't think whether it's a deck or an archetype matters much. The line's pretty blurry.

[M@verick]

The first maverick list is this one:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [A] Savannah
1 [U] Forest (3)
1 [7E] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Treetop Village

// Creatures
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [B] Birds of Paradise

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [5E] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [8E] Choke
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

It was played in Spain even before than the arrival of vengevines. But it was after the survival of the fittest restriction when the deck had more success. The most decks had the same 55-60 cards.

When GSZ was printed, most people began to play it in maverick, adding a green creatures tool box, and keeping the core. The changes were:

GSZ instead of aether vial
GSZ toolbox instead wayfarer
Some people changed deck name to GW zenith

So, GW zenith decks seems like a maverick update, and now all people play with GSZ.

[Fatal]

@M@verick - yeap I agree with you that was one of the earliest list of this deck - it changes a lot from printing GSZ as metion in primer.

I have a new problem, I read on merfolks forum that they found new gun against us - Cursed Totem - this card looks quite problematic in this MU it look down most of our creatures, and can't be blow up from Qasali Pridemage - that the bad news. We can still approach but without KotR cycling/tutoring, Scryb vingilance, and SFM equip cheat in to play this MU looks much harder. If Maverick become more popular we can face this card more often. Actual sideboard has only Krosan Grips against it (which never been sided before against them).

Solutions:
1. Harmonic Sliver or other etb green creature which destroys artifacts, so each GSZ would be an out.
2. Seal of Cleansing/Seal of Primordium under E.Tutor - rather bad out better Krosans

any others ?

[Machahiko]

So, what do you think about Edric, spymaster of trest?

I've been wondering that would he be worthy of maindeck or sideboard slot, nice addition to the GSZ toolbox we have, but we do have Sylvan Library already.

So far here's my list:


23 //Creatures:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
3 Stoneforge mystic

10 //Other:

4 Green sun's Zenith
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 //Removal:

4 Swords to Plowshares

22 //Lands:

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

15 //Sideboard:

3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Null Rod
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile




So, that should be about 59 + 15 cards, if the numbers are off something's missing or there's too much of something. Anyways, I'm trying to think about whether should I play Edric or not. Have any thoughts or advice about him? Haven't had the time to test him at all and would appreciate if you could chip in. I'm also thinking about whether to add Mirran Crusader or not, he just can be such a hit and miss for most of the time.

The one remaining spot is a fight between Karakas, Elspeth, Edric, Tarmogoyf, Qasali Pridemage, mystery equipment X, Sylvan Library, Kitchen Finks and Rhox War Monk.

[Bzka]

@Machahiko

First off, 20 Lands plus a Maze seem to be not enough, you should atleast add a Karakas for obvious reasons. This deck wants every mana it can possibly get and with only 1 Ranger you dont want to miss landdrops in the early game.

About Dryad Arbor. Why dont you play him? This is the first deck posted in this thread which refuses to play him. Consider to test him. If you already did, you might give us some feedback.
Of course he can screw some openers from time to time, but tutoring for ramp which can also stop first turn lackey and carry equipment sounds nice to me and imho this is proven.

Sword of Body and Mind over Batterskull must be a metachoice, as so much Jace protection looks like an overkill plus the massive amount of control hate in your SB and a MD Thrun on top of that.

[Machahiko]

@Machahiko

First off, 20 Lands plus a Maze seem to be not enough, you should atleast add a Karakas for obvious reasons. This deck wants every mana it can possibly get and with only 1 Ranger you dont want to miss landdrops in the early game.

About Dryad Arbor. Why dont you play him? This is the first deck posted in this thread which refuses to play him. Consider to test him. If you already did, you might give us some feedback.
Of course he can screw some openers from time to time, but tutoring for ramp which can also stop first turn lackey and carry equipment sounds nice to me and imho this is proven.

Sword of Body and Mind over Batterskull must be a metachoice, as so much Jace protection looks like an overkill plus the massive amount of control hate in your SB and a MD Thrun on top of that.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, I was sure that I had missed something when doing this decklist and it actually was Dryad Arbor. It's already in my deck but for some reason I just completely missed it and didn't write it down. I'm 100% on dryad arbor, it's an auto include which I just missed.

Regarding Sword of Body and Mind and Batterskull: I've had this fight going on about whether to play Body of Mind or Light and Shadow, and I can't really come up with anything to say about this. It's a constant back and forth which sword to play and I've come to same conclusion about swords with ivanpei (he has a thread about SFM equipment in Format & Article discussion, great read). The only thing that would make me want to change body and mind away is the overlapping protection from blue. Having 2 swords for 4 colors to protect could be worth playing a bit worse sword.

Batterskull, oh how do I hate thee. My personal opinion is that I don't really like the card and I think it doesn't even fit so well into the deck.

Thank you for your input, I have to keep on thinking about my sideboard if there's something that I have missed.

[Koby]

While in my testing I found Maze of Ith to be irrelevant, I did end up losing two matches where it would have played an integral part of winning. I lost two matches to a SoBM when I failed to draw GSZ/STP/QPM or a white creature. Once against UW StoneBlade, and again against Zoo.

I may consider putting Maze in the SB again, because it felt like a sting to run so cold against these two matches.

Overall, I felt it was unneeded in the maindeck.

tl;dr: Maze of Ith is good against Equipment.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@IBA: There is no need for a philiosphocal discussion. Your post was flat out awful.

You seem curiously obsessed with this point. Almost as if you need it to be true and need others to confirm this.

You are of course free to think as you like, I just think it's an interesting preoccupation.


It had two short statements that were inflated with vulgarities and condescension. I made these statements Italic and bold for you. If you find any more actual content in your jabbering feel free to inform me.

There were a number of points in my posts, but of course you know this, and this is again part of an attempt to marginalize what you must see as a threat to some concept you find important.


Statement one was "everybody who doesn't play multiple Tarmogoyfs, Elspeths and Sylvan Libraries is wrong ".

That is not what I said.


The second statement was "Maverick is an archetype and not a deck because it has no core except for Lands, GSZ, KotR, SFM and StoP", supported by a short statistic about the last ten Maverick decks on TCD that shows that these decks only have 33 cards in common.

Legacy manabases all look pretty much the same, and the remaining cards except for GSZ were entirely ubiquitous to the format. I think it's fair to ask what separates the deck from Zoo or Junk or Bant besides not wanting to splash the third color.

However, I accept that you consider this an unreliable litmus test.


On top of that in a deck with usually 12 tutors the Tutor targets obviously vary without changing anything about the functionality or strategy of the deck.

Well, first of all, the deck does not usually have 12 tutors. In fact I didn't see any lists running 4 SFM, 4 Knight and 4 GSZ of the ten. So I don't even know what you're basing that on.

Secondly, Knight and Stoneforge are ubiquitous, so arguing that running those cards and any of a changing rotation of targets leaves the core intact seems hopeless to me.

Thirdly I have no idea why you think the actual nature of the targets you can grab doesn't change the functionality of the deck. This seems like a prima facie absurd argument. Of course it matters what you actually tutor for, that's the entire point of the tutors in the first place.


Morte has listed a core of this deck here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-ATB-GW-x-Maverick&p=561942&viewfull=1#post561942 but reading the thread before posting was too much to ask for.

I obviously did read the thread, that was the point of saying that I was basing my post on what actually posted results (although not weighted, granted, for tournament size), not on some gut feeling.

Partisanship towards a deck doesn't actually qualify one to speak of it with more authority. The opposite if anything. There are clearly quite a lot of courtiers in this thread that are very upset that I don't appreciate the subtleties to the emperor's new wardrobe.


A vast majority of the decks on TCG will not vary from that 48 card core by more than 2 cards.

Well let's look again.

You said,


the Goyf statement pretty much says that the last 40+guys (no time to check every single list) who top8ed with Maverick are idiots. Have your opinion, but try to respect other people's test results and tournament success over your own theory.

I'll ignore the ironies that abound here for a moment and simply take your number, which you have "no time to check."

Of the past 40 listed decks, this would be the average decklist:

3.85 Noble Hierarch
3.325 Mother of Runes
0.5 Birds of Paradise
0.275 Quirion Ranger
2.675 Stoneforge Mystic
2.55 Qasali Pridemage
1.325 Scryb Ranger
0.775 Tarmogoyf
0.5 Gaddock Teeg
0.35 Fauna Shaman
0.075 Scavenging Ooze
3.775 Knight of the Reliquary
1.225 Aven Mindcensor
0.8 Eternal Witness
0.575 Terravore
0.375 Mirran Crusader
0.15 Rhox War Monk
0.05 Kitchen Finks
0.05 Mangara of Corondor
0.025 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
0.025 Phyrexian Metamorph
0.575 Thrun, the Last Troll
0.25 Rafiq of the Many
0.15 Vengevine
0.025 Baneslayer Angel
0.025 Primeval Titan

0.05 Loyal Retainers
0.05 Iona, Shield of Emeria
0.625 Natural Order
0.2 Progenitus

0.375 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
0.05 Garruk Wildspeaker

3.975 Swords to Plowshares
3.65 Green Sun's Zenith
0.4 Mental Misstep
0.4 Aether Vial
0.075 Brainstorm
0.075 Spell Pierce
0.025 Path to Exile
0.925 Sylvan Library
0.075 Oblivion Ring
0.05 Beast Within
0.025 Scrounge (?)

1.125 Umezawa's Jitte
0.55 Sword of Fire and Ice
0.475 Sword of Light and Shadow
0.45 Batterskull
0.4 Sword of Feast and Famine
0.05 Sword of Body and Mind
0.025 Sword of War and Peace

3.95 Windswept Heath
3.65 Savannah
3.3 Wasteland
2.225 Horizon Canopy
1.975 Forest
1.3 Plains
1.15 Dryad Arbor
0.95 Karakas
0.875 Misty Rainforest
0.625 Wooded Foothills
0.6 Gaea's Cradle
0.55 Maze of Ith
0.25 Tropical Island
0.25 Verdant Catacombs
0.1 Temple Garden
0.05 Bojuka Bog
0.05 Flooded Strand
0.05 Marsh Flats
0.025 Yavimaya Hollow
0.025 Kor Haven
0.025 Petrified Field
0.025 Sejiri Steppe
0.025 Stirring Wildwood

Or rounding:

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 other equipment

4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Other fetchland or random utility land


Some interesting notes here; Italians are fucking in love with Aven Mindcensor, and Germans but nobody else really love the package of Jitte/Batterskull/SoFF, with the latter two seeing almost no play without each other for some reason. Most others seem to be opting for the "old school" suite of SoLS + SoFI + Jitte.

Anyway, based on this number crunching I am forced to conclude that I was wrong. There is in fact a deck, given some not-too-unusual-for-Legacy amount of (largely regional) variation, in Europe that has a coherent core and can be referred to as "Maverick." However, in light of this the thread and opening post should be cleaned up as they are totally inaccurate, and many people seem to be trying to co-opt the success of a fairly narrow core to primp out their own variations like the Death and Taxes shell, which has simply not put up any relevant numbers.

Or put another way, there is a deck called Maverick that has earned a spot in the DTB section based on a string of performances in Europe, and there is an archetype of the same name, and the confusion between the two needs sorting out.

I think I'll have to put together a list and test it out against the East Coast meta, because the core of what people are actually playing looks mainly really good except for the points I already mentioned about how Scryb Ranger is terrible and 2x Library should be mandatory (which is one thing the Germans mostly seem to be doing right). The Hatfields were working for quite a while on a similar list also so maybe they have some good ideas.

[deviant]

Managed to find time for a daily at last. The only form of legacy play I'm able to get these days it seems..
4-0'd, as I usually do with my gw build. Just felt like dropping by and giving my opinion on some of the more contradictory card choices.
( the list, if you're interested is here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2512262 )

1) sylvan library: imo has no place in the deck. Tested it as a one or two of for some months, gave up when I finally realized there is never a good time to drop it. You want to deploy dudes on the early turns, and later on you'd just rather draw a dude than a card that eventually will find you one. Sure, it's good in attrition wars, but this deck outperforms the competition in those anyways..

2) aven mindcensor: my newfound love. I play mirrans for long, but those are no longer the "tech" imo. BUG decks are not that popular anymore, and avens help in the mu's where the rest of the deck is weaker. I feel like they balance the deck out very nicely, but that is a flex slot obv.

3) tarmogoyf: Raw power is nice to have when all your cute trickery stuff gets counterred, killed or kidnapped. I admit, he is not as strong as he used to be, but he does carry his weight very easily still. Good against control decks, merfolk decks, goblin decks, tarmogoyf decks.. Also fits the curve very nicely.

4) X ranger: I tried, i swear i tried. I never got to do any sweet stuff with these, as I'd just rather have a real creature when I GSZ, and when I drew them they were just plain embarrassing. You want to play them, sure. I'll just keep on reading that as "+1 tarmogoyf" in decklists packing them.

5) Elspeth: this one was really good, but not needed. Always considering these when I make changes but they never quite make it.

6) Batterskull: not needed in the md, but imo sb worthy at the very least. Against some decks this is your main game plan, and it does really shine against other attrition based board control strategies.

7) Gaeas Cradle: I cut a spell to make room for this, as I saw it as a combo with batterskull. It is more than that. Sometimes you have a KOTR out and you just find this and go nuts and they never saw it coming. Been really, really impressed by this one and I feel like one of those people from advertisements when I just want to smile and say "I don't know how I managed without it".

8) Sword of Feast and Famine: best in the mu's where you need the extra help. Also the discard effect keeps on getting people, for some reason they don't see it coming from GW beats. Relevant prots, relevant abilities. I like it.

9)3 pridemage: I'd love 4, but the 3-3 split between tarmo and him is because I have a 62 card md atm, and I solved that by cutting 2 cards I know I want 4 of, but that I know I don't need 4 of. Not the smartest thing if you want to win one tournament, but most helpful in finding the actually correct cuts for the longer run.

I'd love to contribute more to this thread now that one exists and I no longer have to develop this on my own, but I do not only have very limited time these days, but I keep getting the feeling people try to take this deck in an entirely wrong direction and therefore misevaluate card choices. Might be me also.

[TossUsToLions]

Anyway, based on this number crunching I am forced to conclude that I was wrong. There is in fact a deck, given some not-too-unusual-for-Legacy amount of (largely regional) variation, in Europe that has a coherent core and can be referred to as "Maverick." However, in light of this the thread and opening post should be cleaned up as they are totally inaccurate, and many people seem to be trying to co-opt the success of a fairly narrow core to primp out their own variations like the Death and Taxes shell, which has simply not put up any relevant numbers.

Or put another way, there is a deck called Maverick that has earned a spot in the DTB section based on a string of performances in Europe, and there is an archetype of the same name, and the confusion between the two needs sorting out.



Thanks a lot for this post, it honestly makes you much more credible. And I agree that the opening post could use an update. It could show the original "Maverick" list (the deck's history) that M@averick posted along with how it changed to the core that you yourself showed with statistics. It could also talk about some of the possible cards that can be used in the many flex-spots that the deck has.

[Fatal]

I will fix it in first post of primer.

Edit: Update, thank you guys for your data.

[Fatal]

Just top4ed on Polish Championships and split.

2 Mavericks in top8. I'm too tired to write up more, tomorrow i will write a little more.

Won Rievised boosters one opened with Tropical Island..

[SuperProxy]

I hate being an idiot but what does ATB mean?

[Koby]

"Archetype to beat"

We're just better than everyone, because Archetype is more cool sounding than Deck. Or something like that...

[SuperProxy]

ahh thanks ye was looking at last months meta at TC and maverick was running 3rd first was Zoo then merfolk

[TossUsToLions]

Congrats on the finish, Fatal. Would you be able to post the deck that you played when you get a chance?

[Fatal]

Ok quick report (tomorrow next tournament) there is actually Nationals in our country so don't have a lot of time to write.

List:

//Main
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Tropical Island
1 Terravore
3 Mental Misstep
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Misty Rainforest

//SB(15):
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Life from the Loam
1 Serenity
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Meta - decks which i remember:
3 Maverick
2 No-FoW Bant
Enchantresska
Sneak
Claw-blade
Team America
TES
BUG Jace Control
Affinity
Aggro Loam RGb
Drake Fish U/w
Junk
NO RUG

And a lot more of which i don't remember

Round 1 - Claw-Blade U/w 2-0

MVP - Scryb Ranger and SoLS both games they won me the game.

Game 1:
Opponent starts from Visions, then counter few things and stp like KotRs/Goyfs/Hierarchs, then GSZ for 2, mana exeleration and SFM resolve. I equip next turn Scryb Ranger with SoLS then I have way to victory protected from all stuff whan he could stop me, bloking Batterskull, killing Jaces and swinging..

Side in:
2 Choke, Krosan Grip, 2 Wing Shards

Side out:
Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull, Rafiq of the Many, Mental Misstep, Terravore - suspect GY hate after side, like relic

Game 2 was much faster, just fast KotR resolve, with Scryb on hand, them waste, waste, and second KotR - GG without any sb cards.

Round 2 - Merfolks - that will be shame - 1-2

Game 1:
He had stifles, which I met in first game vs my wasteland on his mutavault. Again I won with Scryb Ranger in the skies blocking and attacking on tripple exalted.

Side in:
2 Chokes, 2 Wing Shards, SoFI

Side out:
Scavenging Ooze, Rafiq of the Many, Terravore, SoLS, 1 Aven Mindcensor

Game 2:
This time my opponent have porno draws, counter everything and pushing me with Jiite on Cursecatcher - I drew 4 stp, and return one from Eternal Witness so 5 stp.. but couldn't handle with Silvergill Adept advantage.. I didn't draw any creatures and GSZ expect Hierarchs and Witness, I finally stopped him with maze, but wasteland end the game.

Game 3:
This time I had advantage drawing Jitte on start which resolve, pushing with Hierarch then, With Arbor after he Chumped with Mutavaults, and few dudes. Couldn't drew any creatures, finally I drew batterskull which was really tap me out to cast - then he just play threads of disloyalty on token and swinging, I requip to kill 4/4 lifelinker on hierarch, then Sower, I kill it with Jitte, then next threads of disloyalty kill me - no other dudes comes to my hand - that was really bad draws with nuts opposite.

Round 3 - Junk

Game 1
First game was tide after all Ooze here was MVP cleaning the graveyard, punishing 2 Goyfs and KotR on opponent side.

Side in:
Bojuka Bog, 2 Wing Shards

Side out:
1 Scryb Ranger, 1 Maze of Ith, 1 Rafiq of the Many

Game 2

Opponent lose to his deck - Wasteland on his colored mana, then Goyf, he hymn me and that was gg after second wasteland.

Round 4:
Drake Fish U/w with SFM and snap/gilded drakes

Game 1:
Again Scryb was MVP here, also with Rafiq which gives ultimate tempo and dodge Spellshutters Sprites.

Side in: 2 Chokes, 1 Krosan Grip, SoFI
Side out: 1 Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull, 1 Terravore, 1 Eternal Witness - last one was wrong.

Game 2:
I opened with really good controlish hand, with Wing Shards, StP, 1 hierarch, Krosan Grip, Mental Misstep, 2 lands. I played controlish and allow my opponent to fetch jitte, few fearies, then make my tricks drawing nuts from the top - GSZ and SFM. I blow up jitte at the end of turn, and try to StP mystic at the and also he MM, I MM, he fowed and have no cards in hand. Then I played my SFM and fetching Jitte, he draw mystic and play own jitte to blow up mine. Then I zenith for 3 for Eternal Witness which was missing ... I found Scryb, then draw an other mystic and make job with SoLS and game was ended fast.

Again MVP was Scryb with SoLS - after this match all tournament know that Scryb with SoLS on it is more dangerous than Choke having only Islands..

Round 5: ID - with Sneak my friend Puchat.

We goes for dinner before top8 and wanted to split out all top8 - Revised boosters waiting, it was about 8 p.m. Unfortunately one guy doesn't agree and we played..

Quater-finals - Sneak :(

This MU isn't good - specially that:
When opponent play S&T and we put Metamorph to face emrakul/progenitus - Metamorph dies as 0/0 creature because he can't copy creature putted in the same time to play via S&T - lvl 4 judge confirm that so game gonna be harder than i suspect.

My only chance will be bad opponent hand, and countering cantrips with MM, fast clock, and mana screw due to wastelands, Censors.

Game 1: - My opponent doesn't have to good hand he cast sneak after 2 wastelands being on 5 life and Goyf + Scryb was in play - 7 pernaments.. he swing and died to goyf.

Side in:
Phyrexian Metamorph,2 Wing Shards, Gaddock Teeg, 2 Choke, E.Tutor (forgot about serenity which would also help - which I found after 3 next games in freeplay)

Side out: 4 StP, Scavenging Ooze, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull (last one also could be mistake).

Game 2: After MM cantrip, he cantrip again, then S&T Hydra into play. I had Goyf and hierarch, putting SFM and fetching... SoLS which won me this race :) Swinging without block to hydra and putting my life upper than 20 mean GG. He attack then firespout my smaller dudes - I swing and puting back Hierarch for lethal :).

After 4 free play games it was 3-3.

Semi-finals: Clawblade U/W it was 9 p.m and was really tired after 11 hours playing/trading.

We was talking about split but there was 18 boosters from Revised to we played for one booster more, before play we probably made one of the craziest thing and open booster on which we was playing.. and... Tropical Island booster Mint ;P before we decide what's next, 3 guys offer us to buy it. We sell it and playing for cash.

Game 1:

He won the roll, suspend Visions and go. I fetch, hierarch, go. He draw, land drop go. Then KotR -> brainstorm -> resolve, then again in next round, KotR, Brainstorm.. resolve :) Also Terravore resolve before Visions.. Which was 16/16.. 2 Milling KotRs in play. Then he StP Vore and Jace bounce the KotR, Swing KotR.. SFM gg


Game 2:
This one was so long that only one judge stays on whole event. I killed 3 Jaces, 4 SFM, one Batterskull, survive 4 StP, 4 FoWs.. and died to Clique and last Jace with Crucible/Mishra chump block - opponent was at 7 (about 20 cards left in opponent library) I didn't drew any flyer expect Fetched Scryb which died to StP->MM->MM.

After game this game opponent suggest split that cash -> I agree, being exhausted.

I after second game I realize that I should board in goddeck teeg vs Jaces/repeal.

Final result: 4-1-2
Looks like not short report ^^.

Nuts for the end:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4927/dsc05592f.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/dsc05592f.jpg/)

[Philipp2293]

Thank you for you report. How often do you miss Moms? Is MM better than them?

[Fatal]

Since one month i dropped last Mom for MM, and it was good decision in my eyes. They're often dead draws when u need a decent beater. MM also protect from mostly removal (StP) but also are tempo cards stoping early drops like Hierarch/StP on your hierarch etc.

It also helps vs combo/thoughtsieze which was revelant. It won me the game 1 vs Junk when I protect my Ooze, and counter thoughseize, then StP to Ooze which mom couldn't do.

Using Mom when u don't have them double/scryb in play is risky because you can get removal in resp to protection.

[Artlee]

Polish Ch.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[Machahiko]

Today played in a minor tournament, went 3-2 in the swiss and got 3rd. In the top 4 I beat Team America and then lost to Reanimator.

Match 1 was against a friend of mine playing burn, first game was just so good for him. Second and third game he flooded a little bit of land and in the 3rd game Mother of Runes with Jitte and Rafiq hit for 18dmg in one turn for the kill.

Match 2 was against another friend of mine playing RUW control or something, don't really know the name of the deck. Sword of Light and Shadow + casting Qasali Pridemage over and over again for the win.

Match 3 was against reanimator. I had NO maindeck ooze and NO karakas. The game was really unfavorable. I lost the first game, second I won with equipped Scryb Ranger. Third game I had to mulligan once or twice and he of course plays turn 2 iona and I can't do anything about it.

Match 4 was against mono green infect. Oh boy did he draw good.. t2 kill and protection for glistener elf. G2 I won with swords to plowshares. G3 I mulligan down to 5 in order to find something relevant, but once again he leads off to turn 2 kill with protection from swords to plowshares.

I was pretty much down after this, after beating my friends I lost to two opponents and then the 5th match was once again, against a friend of mine.

Match 5 against my friend playing dredge. G1 he doesn't get a single dredger to the graveyard and I just beat down with 3 Aven Mindcensor. G2 I get wheel of sun and moon + bojuka bog and tormod's crypt running, but had to wait a moment to get a Knight of the Reliquary. Wheel of Sun and Moon was awesome.

Top 4:

Against Team America, G1 we both draw very bad, but I wasteland his only land while the only thing I have is lands. I actually fetched out ALL my lands out of my deck before playing a single creature. After resolving a knight of the reliquary, the game was easy. G2 he gets somewhat good start and I misplay and have a stupid strategy. My strategy was to deny him of his mana when he already had 4 duals in the game and I had like 2 lands. Not good. G3 I resolve Maze of Ith and Knight of the Reliquary while he gets to play Tarmogoyf. I wasteland the crap out of him and destroy all his lands. I keep on hitting and win the game.

Finals, well. Against reanimator when I didn't have karakas or ooze. I actually didn't even have Phyrexian Metamorph in the sideboard when I should have had one, did my sideboard a little bit bad. G1 I lose barely, if I had lived for one more turn he would have milled himself with Jin-Gitaxias. G2 I have a risky start. I take the risky start to have my GSZ misstepped by him. Taking the risk wasn't worth it. He started with no reanimate spells at all, but of course he draws one on his turn. T2 Iona and the game is over.


Good cards:

Scryb Ranger - awesome all day, won a race between Scryb Ranger and Iona. Of course sword of light and shadow helped a little bit, but anyways.. ;) I even got to live the dream against Team America. I have 2 lands untapped, Ranger in my hand and my opponent wants to wasteland my Savannah. Flash Scryb Ranger in, untap ranger and raise Savannah to my hand. My opponent wasn't happy, at all.
Rafiq of the Many - When he hit board, it was usually game over, immediately.
Maze of Ith - This might be my favorite land from now on. I just love it, it was really really good through the whole day.
Sword of Light and Shadow - I am so glad that I swapped this to the SOBAM I had before. Bringing Qasali Pridemage back turn after turn is such a beating.
Sylcan Library - Always countered. If not, I would just draw extra cards and it'd be very hard for my opponent to get back into the game.

Bad cards:

Aven Mindcensor - I know this cards is really good, but today it was NEVER anything more than a flash 2/1 flyer. It's ability was not used once during the whole day. The matchups I had weren't good for Mindcensor, but it just performed poorly. Never the less, I will keep on trying to play this creature.
Thrun, the Last Troll - No good matchups for Thrun and when I wanted to zenith for 4 I usually wanted to find Rafiq.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Not much to say about her, I saw her once during the whole day and when I saw her I was facing Iona, Blazing Archon and Sphinx of the Steel Wind.


I'll post my decklist later on when the results are posted somewhere and I'll just copy my decklist from there. I'm too tired to look out what I really played. :P I got my first Dual Land for a prize! Before I've got only fetchlands, this time I got badlands. It's not much, but still the first dual land I've ever won. And I should be able to get that Karakas with it. ;) My French ooze is on his way by mail, but it wasn't fast enough to arrive here in time for the tournament.

For the future: Need Karakas and Scavenging Ooze. Tarmogoyf was really never needed, when I wanted to zenith for 2 I usually wanted Scryb Ranger or Qasali Pridemage. Sword of Fire and Ice, Umezawa's Jitte and Sword of Light and Shadow were a good trio, but someone has to go and make space for Batterskull. Even though I hate it so much. Also, 3x Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard was too much. Should try to run it with 2 Tutors.

More stuff:

Thanks for the report Fatal, your deck seems really nice, besides the missing 4 Mother of Runes. ;) Well, this deck has lost of ways to be built and I myself like Mother of Runes. Your landbase seems really good, might have to aim for it myself as well.

[Fatal]

Top8 and lose to Spiral played by my brother in today event.

Win with GR/b Aggro Loam with dreams and wishes 2-1

Lose 1-0 to Team America - decklist error :( - most stupid thing ever - I was really tired.

Win with Dredge 2-0

Win with Affinity UWB with Tezzer/SFMs

Lose to Spiral..

Meta was really combo one, Hive Mind, 2 ANTs, 2 Affnities, 2 Enchantress, 2 Dredges etc..

List:


3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Tropical Island
1 Terravore
3 Mental Misstep
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Birds of Paradise

//SB
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Life from the Loam
1 Serenity
1 Surgical Extraction

[Humphrey]

I played this deck a few times now and I like it. Not playing blue and be competitive is very nice.
But im not a big friend of the Zenith Toolbox. Besides Gaddock all 1 ofs are cool, but not very effective. Id like to have a more straight forward aggro plan. So I filled the slots with Goyf but have still 4 free slots. I was thinking about NOProg, but that sucks without any ability to put Prog back into Lib.

Any Ideas how to fasten the clock?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Did you actually like Tarmogoyf in this deck? I found it to be pretty disappointing and rather week. I replaced the one-off from my list with a Scavenging Ooze which is really strong.
If you want to go more on the aggro-plan, I recommend trying out more Terravores. I also really like Elspeth, Knight-Errant in this deck, it works wonders against groundstalls and is generally pretty strong against control (as long as it resolves).

[Humphrey]

well Goyf depends on the deck the opp plays. If hes blue, Goyf is always a 3/4 with the option of growing. Lots of opp countered him anyway. Terravore is great in mid/lategame but i dont want to have a 1/1 for 3 on Turn 2-4 :cry:

Elspeth might be nice but cost 4. Id like to have more oomph in 2 and 3 mana slot.

[Tao]

I talked to the Mod who renamed this to ATB and was able to convince him to rename the thread to "DtB" instead of "AtB". But I agree with him that the thread should focus harder on optimizing the list and finding the best build. There are cards that are just better than the alternatives and we have to find them.

So what do you mean by "not a friend of the Zenith toolbox"? Zenith is good because it helps the deck hitting the ever-important 1-drop and being still a good draw later in the game. Play it or tell us a good reason why it is a suboptimal choice.

Also we had about a million people highjacking this thread and telling us that they were adding Tarmogoyf as the first thing they did just because duh. Look at the old Maverick thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18169-DECK-WG-Maverick&p=484537&viewfull=1#post484537

I was one of them (the metagame was different a year ago, Survival wasn't banned and Zenith wasn't printed so maybe I was right back which I always like to think but probably I was not). It is not that we haven't been there already or that we just refuse to play 4 Tarmogoyfs because we don't like the card.

[Humphrey]

What I like, Zenith help the Deck to have perfect curving, but Im not a friend of that much situational 1ofs like Thrun, Birds, Ranger etc. I like to have simple consistent builds. Thats what im looking for. Maybe the toolbox is the reason this deck is performing well, but maybe its performing well because of the main core. Im playing Goblins for years now and I remember lots of people where running 1ofs as Matron targets. But over the time Lists got tighter and tighter and now ure running mainly 2-4ofs.
The question is, are there enough gw creatures with big impact in the 1-3 mana slot yet.

The thing about goyf is, this is the best creature ever printed and in this deck hes not working very well. Question is, discard Goyf from the deck or add some Instants/Sorcerys which are improving the decks gameplan and help the goyf.

[Tao]

That example is good. And yes I agree that reducing the number of Zenith targets to a minimum is a good idea and that people play too many situational targets. But cutting Zenith would be like cutting Goblin Matron and you wouldn't do that.

[sclabman]

Here's my list I've been testing. I like the mad consistency of it and the fewer Zenith 1-ofs than many lists I see.

4x Noble Hierarch
4x GSZ
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Goyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Fire/Ice
1x Sword of Light/Shadow
3x Scryb Ranger
3x Mother of Runes
3x Weathered Wayfarer
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mental Misstep
1x Scavenging Ooze

4x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor

//SB
4x Spell Pierce
11x other stuff


Weathered Wayfarer can DOMINATE the early game against many decks, giving the deck another MUST-answer bomb against control decks in particular. Scryb Ranger has so much utility in this deck it's insane to not run it. Not to mention it flies and has flash and Pro-blue on top of everything else.

[M@verick]

I agree with Humphrey. I have always played the classic version, but when all people began to play 4x GSZ i tried that version. But I didnt like having many single GSZ targets. Opening hands were usually random.

But GSZ is powerfull, even without 1-ofs targets. Actually i play 2 GSZ to improve the curve, but without 1-ofs (I would only play terravore, ooze and gaddock).

People should try to play aetehr vial. If cutting GSZ is like cutting goblin matron, so would you cut aether vial in gobos? In GW vial is even more powerfull.

I also agree with sclabman. Wayfarer is a bomb. Is very interesting against not so good pairings, like reanimator, show and tell and heavy control landstills.
In addition, being on the draw is a perfect turn 1.

[Henrik]

But I agree with him that the thread should focus harder on optimizing the list and finding the best build. There are cards that are just better than the alternatives and we have to find them.

So what do you mean by "not a friend of the Zenith toolbox"? Zenith is good because it helps the deck hitting the ever-important 1-drop and being still a good draw later in the game. Play it or tell us a good reason why it is a suboptimal choice.


This line of reasoning strikes me as quite weird. Let's face it, there a r e many different ways to go with a GW midrange deck, and who are you to tell everyone that GSZ is the best way to go. I'm not saying that it isn't, I just don't like the way you want to control what is being discussed in the thread.

I have also been following the decks development since the early days when it surfaced in Europe (where I also play), and I have also made a vial -> GSZ transition. I agree with M@verick in the post above, I was charmed by GSZ at first, but not that impressed and will move back to vial builds. The first deck I ever saw and played was actually from M@verick during a MWS session (You might not remeber it, but thanks mate), and that list with personal modication is still kick-ass.

[Tao]

fix the double post issue plz :)

The issue only exists in Google Chrome. Take it up with them. ;)

[Tao]

Discussing the original Maverick with Wayfarer and Vial and without GSZ as an alternative version is fine and I wouldn't tell anyone to not discuss it of course. But it was not that he actually discussed GSZ, he just stated that he doesnt like the card so he filled the slot up with Goyfs. I told someone who hasn't really played the deck yet that GSZ is widely accepted as an optimal choice and that Goyf is not and gave reasons why I think that is the case.

For the general topic of the thread: because atm the GSZ version puts up tournament results in significant numbers I think finding the right build and choices for this version should be the major topic. But like I said I would never object to actual arguments about different approaches to the deck.

[Morte]

If you want consistency, you should never reduce the number of GSZ. That card is all about improving consistency.
It’s acceleration on turn 1, the best treat or answer later, and an increase of treat density as the game goes on. Just playing 4ofs, Zoo-like, is far from this level of consistency, nothing grants you won't draw 3 of a suboptimal choice and zero of the best one.

The only drawback of GSZ is the extra mana. This deck, however, is the best shell to handle this drawback. With 1 or 2 mana available you go for Dryad or Hierarch, and you wish nothing more than acceleration when you’re low of mana. When you reach 3 mana you usually have something else in hand to play, with the option to fetch QPM, Ranger and so on. With 4+ mana you can fetch any green critter and GSZ is almost always the best card you can draw.

About the “inconsistency” of the 1ofs, I run:


1 Terravore: I consider it as mandatory. Against any opponent filling its GY with lands, i.e. almost everybody, it’s much bigger than KOR, and trample is very relevant. Not bad as a early draw and a huge finisher
1 Eternal Witness: maybe not “mandatory”, I think it improves consistency a lot. Regrowthing that STP saved my ass a lot of times
1 Scavenging Ooze: not Mandatory, usually becomes at least as big as a goyf but with a lot of utilities, it’s never a “bad” draw. I prefer him over another Scryb Ranger or QPM atm
1 Thrun: more a meta choice, I MD him for control matchups but it’s not that bad in general, besides being slow if you draw him early game
I don’t run Teeg MD (meta choice, and he’s the only antisynergic of the “1ofs”)


My current list:

// Creatures (25):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

// Non-Cr. Spells (13):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

// Lands (22):
4 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

3 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor


I find this list extremely consistent. I’m just not totally sold on the Ooze, could become a third QPM or SR.

About Vial: it’s the old choice between consistency and speed. Speed is a good thing, but our way of consistency grants us mana acceleration too, so we are not missing speed that much. And, on the other hand, our way of consistency grants us a mid-late game with few equals in the current metagame, whether Vial is a bad draw after the beginning. GSZ is very good early game and the best later. I’d never, NEVER cut him from this deck.

Finally, a question about Wayfarer: I’ve never had experience of the early incarnation of this deck and probably I’m missing how to play him properly. Why should him be “a bomb?”

[M@verick]

I agree GSZ improves consistency and it is the best draw on a long game. 1 ofs doesnt work the same.

Aether vial is a bad topdeck (except if the oponent play control), but is by far THE BEST turn 1 of the deck. would you guys play goblins or merfolks without vial? I dont think so. Is awesome the velocity and the tricks you can do with aether vial

About wayfarer: obviusly is best in the WG vial configuration. It is awesome vs show and tell-emrakul (is like playing 8 karakas main deck) and the same vs reanimator. Is a must be countered vs all kind of landstill. you can do a lot of tricks if you know the rules well, with wasteland, fetchland and horizon canopy. Is the best option to find gaeas cradle at beginning. It has a very good interaction with scryb ranger...if you are on the draw, you can force the opponent to not playing lands, or being subjet to a card disvantatge. Is CC1 and is not killed by popular perish.

@ henrik. If you give me some details maybe I remember. Did we play a WG mirror?

[Philipp2293]

@Morte: Damn, that list looks tight, I might give it a try. How are you doing vs control?

In general, I have to say that I find mysself wanting more and more the 3rd Pridemage in the main. Anybody else having the same experiences?

On a sidenote, I dropped GW Maverick for the last tournament cause there have been sooo much combo and hardcontrol decks in my meta lately. What did I face (with Reanimator)? Merfolkx2, Affinityx2 and Goblins. :(

[Koby]

I've been rocking 3 QPM since I started playing the deck. If I went back to Vial versions, I would increase it to 4.

[Tao]

Finally, a question about Wayfarer: I’ve never had experience of the early incarnation of this deck and probably Im missing how to play him properly. Why should him be a bomb?

The good thing about Wayfarer is that he can create card advantage for costing only one Mana. Especially tutoring Wastelands is nasty, but getting Canopies and your KotR-1-offs is of course very good, too. And yes, it is true, some games are solely won on the back of Wayfarer. When your opponent has no removal but wants multiple Nonbasics in play he is in trouble. When your opponent has Removal and wants to have multiple lands in play Wayfarer will be a T1 Removal magnet like MoR (a good thing). He is also effective in denying opposing Mana Denial.

I don't know if you play him correctly. There is a good number of tricks to get activations out of him when you and your opponent have an equal number of lands in play. I will just list the ones that I can think of atm:
- you can play a fetchland as your next land and not crack it yet. When your opponent plays his next land you can fetch and in response activate Wayfarer. Unless your opponent skips his land drop he can't do anything about it. T1 Mother of Runes, T2 Wayfarer or T1 Wayfarer + T2 Hierarch/StoP would be a good and fast sequence for this play but it is still effective when both are already on 2-3 lands.
- you can bounce a land with Scryb Ranger. Maybe you can even untap the Wayfarer with it for full value if you have the time and the Mana.
- if one of your lands is a Wasteland you can Waste his land and activate Wayfarer in reponse, getting a second Waste. Especially turn 1 Wayfarer, T2 Wasteland + 2-drop can be a deadly combination.
- you can stop playing lands because your curve is lower. In Vial versions this is even better for obvious reasons but your Hierarchs can "cheat" on the land count, too.
- you can sac away your Canopies and chain into more Canopies later in the game when you need spells instead of lands.

The disadvantages of Wayfarer are that he has no combat impact, is usually a terrible topdeck and that he costs you quite a lot of Tempo before any advantage kicks in.

@Morte: your list looks awesome

[DragoFireheart]

Lets put it this way: if Wayfarer was worth using, we'd see him more. It's not like he's new deck: he's been around since UW Tempo. If anything he seems like Win-more.

[Tacosnape]

Used to run Wayfarer and cut him. Didn't like him, even with Mox Diamond. I'd rather just get more Knights of the Reliquary who do stuff better.

Also I have the double post issue a lot lately, and I use Firefox.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is the version I've come to after some testing:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Parallax Wave
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

+2 flex slots I'm varying between the third Witness/Library/Pridemage/Wave, the fourth KotR, a Scavenging Ooze or 1-2 Elspeth.

Moms I just found not to do enough. It's a card with a lot of history but Mental Misstep + Parallax Wave do as much to protect your guys while also giving you a better handle against combo and more offensive power. Parallax Wave is an insanely good card in the deck, one which gives you utter dominance of the board for several turns. It's also really flexible; it can be a one sided Wrath to clear the way for killing them, or stall their gameplan for several turns, or protect your own guys. One of my favorite tricks is to exile your own Witness with the last counter and get it back the next turn, which is pretty much always going to seal the game if they can't interrupt the chain. This is also why I've bumped up the Witness count and played it with up to 3x. Witness recursion is also a reason for the use of SoLS over SoFF, which would be my next choice.

Other than that it's a pretty orthodox build I think. Library is a fantastic card, 2x Goyf is I think the ideal number, because it's never dead and very often the best GSZ target when you need to Just Go Kill Them. Or just get a big-assed blocker. Also reduces your vulnerability to Massacre because seriously does Europe know that card exists?

Elspeth I think I like better in the board to bring in against slower decks/control. I'm also running a playset of Mana Tithes in the board to compliment Misstep + Teegs for the combo matchup, with a varying number of Ethersworn Canonists. Scavenging Ooze to Zenith and Bojuka Bog to grab with Knight is the main anti-graveyard strategy. I'm also running a Dauntless Escort to grab as the anti-wrath plan.

[Koby]

I like the suggestion for Mana Tithe against combo. That's a pretty neat solution to Hive Mine matchup too, as well as Show and Tell decks. Good find IBA!

[TossUsToLions]

Parallax Wave seems really good, but also a bit slow. What matchups has it been good in? I've been testing Dueling Grounds in the board, which has been amazing. If stuck, it just single-handedly wins against Folk/Gobbos/Affinity/etc. Just drop a Knight or a creature with equipment and it'll almost always be bigger than your opponent's threats, especially with our exalted triggers. Goes very well with an active Batterskull.

Could you post your SB, IBA? Seems like you have some interesting choices in there.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Parallax Wave seems really good, but also a bit slow. What matchups has it been good in? I've been testing Dueling Grounds in the board, which has been amazing. If stuck, it just single-handedly wins against Folk/Gobbos/Affinity/etc. Just drop a Knight or a creature with equipment and it'll almost always be bigger than your opponent's threats, especially with our exalted triggers. Goes very well with an active Batterskull.

Could you post your SB, IBA? Seems like you have some interesting choices in there.

I actually can't think offhand of a matchup where Wave isn't good, although it's obviously a bit slow to come onboard. It is a bit slow so less useful in racing combo. Even against a dedicated control list, however, it's useful for protection. Your best targets are going to be things like Germ tokens or Knights of the Reliquary or any dude with a bunch of level counters.

The SB I'm less settled on, but at the moment it's something like;

4 Mana Tithe
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dauntless Escort

+ 1-2 flex slots that could be anything from Dueling Grounds, another Canonist or Pridemage or something, Phyrexian Revokers, Yavimaya Hollow to counter Deedstill, or whatever.

Of course you can't really optimize a sideboard as much as you can a maindeck, so that's mostly negotiable. I also think SoFF/Batterskull might be fine in the board. Maybe even a Lightning Greaves for control.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Parallax Wave seems really good, but also a bit slow. What matchups has it been good in? I've been testing Dueling Grounds in the board, which has been amazing. If stuck, it just single-handedly wins against Folk/Gobbos/Affinity/etc. Just drop a Knight or a creature with equipment and it'll almost always be bigger than your opponent's threats, especially with our exalted triggers. Goes very well with an active Batterskull.

Could you post your SB, IBA? Seems like you have some interesting choices in there.

I actually can't think offhand of a matchup where Wave isn't good, although it's obviously a bit slow to come onboard. It is a bit slow so less useful in racing combo. Even against a dedicated control list, however, it's useful for protection. Your best targets are going to be things like Germ tokens or Knights of the Reliquary or any dude with a bunch of level counters.

The SB I'm less settled on, but at the moment it's something like;

4 Mana Tithe
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dauntless Escort

+ 1-2 flex slots that could be anything from Dueling Grounds, another Canonist or Pridemage or something, Phyrexian Revokers, Yavimaya Hollow to counter Deedstill, or whatever.

Of course you can't really optimize a sideboard as much as you can a maindeck, so that's mostly negotiable. I also think SoFF/Batterskull might be fine in the board. Maybe even a Lightning Greaves for control.

[Bzka]

@IBA

You spend half of your SB for your worst Matchup(Combo). Even if it improves the odds from "very bad" into "still bad", i find it a waste of space. Let me explain why:
To beat combo you need either a clock or their AdN to fizzle. If you focus on the first one, leaving mana open to play a Mana Tithe can be contra productive. And there is another thing about Mana Tithe i don't like, it's far inferior to Spell Pierce and Daze. This deck can easily splash blue so you might give them a try if you want to slightly improve your combo matchup.

I accepted the autoloss against combo, so i can pack my sideboard with control- and graveyard-hate, removal plus Wingshards against NO/S&T. If you expect a lot of stormdecks, you should consider to play another deck.
Further your deck lacks Chokes, im pretty sure you tested this card, as most of the decks on TC and in this thread play this card, so you might give us some enlightment why one should not play this card?


For reference, the current core of my non-ET SB:

2x Path to Exile
3x Choke
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Krosan Grip/Oblivion Ring split
1x Gaddock Teeg

(MD contains Batterskull, SoFaF and Thrun)

[Tao]

Parallax Wave is a nice find IBA. I hope you are not too annoyed by my attacks. If I didn't respect you a lot I wouldn't have bothered. Parallax Wave was the best card in Angel Stompy back then and should still be awesome. Can't say if it is good enough but I have a good feeling. Especially the Witness synergy seems great and I don't mind the second Witness at all, it is usually a great draw.

For the Mental Misstep vs. Mother of Runes discussion. I do not understand why they exclude each other. Sure both counter Swords to Plowshares but Misstepping a Sword directed at Mother of Runes is not bad at all. And in the other case, if MoR already protects your creatures, you can throw the Misstep at a Brainstorm. Atm I play 3-4 MoR and 3 Missteps main deck (with the ability to go up to 4 of each post board). I would rather reduce Noble Hierarchs before I cut Mother of Runes because MoR is a better one-drop.

I don't see the need for a second Dryad Arbor. Unless I have one in my opening hand and want to GSZ turn 1 I never wished for a second copy. Maybe I miss something but this seems like a wasted slot. I would also run an addional Stoneforge over the second Goyf.

I don't think Combo is an autoloss (bzka). With Missteps and a fast clock plus SB hate we have a shot.
I can only repeat my suggestion of siding in Thorn of Amethyst if you want to spend slots for that matchup. It is like Mana Tithe, but on all their spells instead of just one. It disrupts their search, their library manipulation, their bounce, their Combo. And it gets (felt) exponentially better in multiples. Sure you lose the surprise effect but it is just a way better effect.

[Bzka]

@Tao

Maybe our definition of autoloss is different. In my opinion it is about 15% and lower.
With both a playset of MMS and Thorn of Amethyst, you need 1 copy of each in you opener, plus 2-3 lands/ramp and 1-2 decent beaters/jitte. Of course you need that draw in 2 out of 3 games . Any half-decent Comboplayer (half-decent = player who has a good matchup against the goldfish) will combo off against your goddraw most of the time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Parallax Wave is a nice find IBA. I hope you are not too annoyed by my attacks. If I didn't respect you a lot I wouldn't have bothered. Parallax Wave was the best card in Angel Stompy back then and should still be awesome. Can't say if it is good enough but I have a good feeling. Especially the Witness synergy seems great and I don't mind the second Witness at all, it is usually a great draw.

I think Wave is the perfect "bomb" slot for deck, personally. I mean KotR and SFM are kind of bomby, but you really want at least one card in the deck that has the potential to immediately end the game. Often it actually leads to a much quicker victory than NO would, without the problem of either drawing the wrong half of the combo or of being unable to salvage a position where Progenitus is forced to stay back and block.

And nah, I do not let myself hold onto grudges involving arguing over Magic cards.

Except maybe against Anusien just because have you read that guy's posts honestly.


For the Mental Misstep vs. Mother of Runes discussion. I do not understand why they exclude each other. Sure both counter Swords to Plowshares but Misstepping a Sword directed at Mother of Runes is not bad at all. And in the other case, if MoR already protects your creatures, you can throw the Misstep at a Brainstorm. Atm I play 3-4 MoR and 3 Missteps main deck (with the ability to go up to 4 of each post board). I would rather reduce Noble Hierarchs before I cut Mother of Runes because MoR is a better one-drop.

I am quite fond of the Hierarchs so I'm not so sure about that. Unlike, say, the Rangers, I think Mom is a good card in this deck, it just was the least good card fighting to get into the 60, and there's really a limit to how many creature-saving effects you want. Misstep and Wave do more than just save creatures, but they have a lot of overlap with the same function. Other people with different evaluations of card strengths might cut a Hierarch and a Goyf and use a flex slot in the same list for a Mom, I just found it weaker than all the other options.


I don't see the need for a second Dryad Arbor. Unless I have one in my opening hand and want to GSZ turn 1 I never wished for a second copy. Maybe I miss something but this seems like a wasted slot. I would also run an addional Stoneforge over the second Goyf.

I frequently use the second copy. Not just because I had a habit of drawing the one of in my opening grip, but also just because using fetchlands to counter Edicts or to turn on a lonely Jitte or Sword is golden. I have absolutely never regretted having it.


I don't think Combo is an autoloss (bzka). With Missteps and a fast clock plus SB hate we have a shot.
I can only repeat my suggestion of siding in Thorn of Amethyst if you want to spend slots for that matchup. It is like Mana Tithe, but on all their spells instead of just one. It disrupts their search, their library manipulation, their bounce, their Combo. And it gets (felt) exponentially better in multiples. Sure you lose the surprise effect but it is just a way better effect.

Maybe, I haven't really tested Thorn. Thorn gives them more information though, often they just walk right into Mana Tithe. Or play around it, which is even better because then it's a Thorn that doesn't affect you and you don't have to pay for. But without testing I'm not going to say which is better; I imagine which combo decks in particular you're fighting against often matters. Mana Tithe is pretty weak against High Tide for instance, or Elves, although those are also the matchups where Misstep is strongest. I think Mana Tithe is clearly better against ShowandHive though.

@bzka: I mean it's worked okay in testing so far. You definitely don't always keep the one white open, you have to be a good judge of when the opponent is going to go off. Generally you need to get a threat out before you start leaving mana open. Combo is still going to be a bad matchup overall, but I think it's worth shoring up. It's also worth noting that you're often going to be bringing in Teegs + Mana Tithe (along with Escort and Elspeth) against some control decks, to keep them off of Wrath/Damnation/Deed with Wastelands.

[Fatal]

Few words about ideas posted upper:

@Parallax Wave - I don't know how your test was, it's only good vs Aggro/Middle Aggro Mirror - cutting such a bombs like's KotRs and such useful creatures with much less cost like Qasali Pridemage (useful in mirrors/control/exalted etc) is wrong in my eyes. 4 Mana enchantments which temporary remove creatures from the game isn't best way imo. It can be on sb on Middle-Aggro etc, but one pridemage can just blow up this enchantment. It also blind card vs combo which is our weakness - so this slots should cover it not next dead card with 4cmc - please post test results vs mix meta with it.

@Second Dryad - its useful, but also brings impact on starting hand - hand with Dryad is good only if it is your 3-4th land on hand otherwise you are in dengerous with screw after any removal.

@Mana Tithe - Force Spike is good only once. This card can be overplayed so easy so it's not worth.

--------------------

Card which I tested on side and MD:

@Srugical Extraction - Very good card after tests, Free mana Extripate, which is mostly big surprise (no black at all, except Bojuka) won me a game vs Aggro Loam and makes easier MU vs dredge. It also was MVP vs Sneak/S&T/Hive Mind after he cast Intuition.

@Engineered Explosives - This should be looked when your going on blind meta - its tutorable answer vs masses of Toxes (EtW/Zombies from Bridges), and can be also used vs Aragothian Enchantress, also can be used as removal.

@Aven Mindcensor in number 3 MD - this dude is really good in 70% of MU. Blocking important things like SFM/GSZ/Fetches/Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll etc.., and Flash + Flying which is great with equips - great in Mirrors.

@One MD Birds of Paradise - slow down exalted triggers, but can save your ass vs Hive Mind Pacts.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Few words about ideas posted upper:

@Parallax Wave - I don't know how your test was, it's only good vs Aggro/Middle Aggro Mirror - cutting such a bombs like's KotRs and such useful creatures with much less cost like Qasali Pridemage (useful in mirrors/control/exalted etc) is wrong in my eyes. 4 Mana enchantments which temporary remove creatures from the game isn't best way imo. It can be on sb on Middle-Aggro etc, but one pridemage can just blow up this enchantment. It also blind card vs combo which is our weakness - so this slots should cover it not next dead card with 4cmc - please post test results vs mix meta with it.

My testing was pretty phenomenal with the card, I thought I was pretty clear on that. First off I would say that you really do maindeck in Legacy against aggro and aggro-control decks. Like StP is weak against dedicated control and combo, but you play 4 of them because that's a relatively small portion of the meta.

Against a deck running creatures Wave is an offensive bomb. Against a deck running sweepers Wave is insurance. The only times I've actually ever felt inclined to side it out has been against combo decks that didn't involve Elves or Emrakul. Which, you know, doesn't leave a whole lot.

I would recommend trying the card out because it's not really obvious how good the card is to people who haven't played it before; I don't think anyone who had seen it in action when, say, Angel Stompy was a real deck would make the same kind of argument.

Also, yes, someone can use a Pridemage to spend 3 mana to kill your 4 mana enchantment. However, if you've dropped it they must have already had something to take with Wave. That means that at the worst in that scenario they've gained one mana but probably lost an attack phase, the ability to activity utility guys, any tokens, level counters, and equips they paid for.

Now it can be less good with a Pridemage already on board, but that's a scenario you have to play around when you get it. Equipment represents an equal or greater opportunity for lost tempo to a Pridemage, but you don't seem to be arguing to take out the equipment, so my assumptions is that you don't understand how much Wave alters the board state when it comes into play.


@Mana Tithe - Force Spike is good only once. This card can be overplayed so easy so it's not worth.

This just isn't true with pressure. Mana Tithe is generally going to be better when they play around it than when they don't. The only reason this card would start to be bad against most combo is if you're unable to apply pressure for some reason.


@Srugical Extraction - Very good card after tests, Free mana Extripate, which is mostly big surprise (no black at all, except Bojuka) won me a game vs Aggro Loam and makes easier MU vs dredge. It also was MVP vs Sneak/S&T/Hive Mind after he cast Intuition.

Surgical Extraction, on the other hand, can actually be completely played around, even in the scenarios where it's actually good. The deck has access to better general graveyard hate, so I would strongly recommend against this unless Loam decks are saturating your meta.


@Engineered Explosives - This should be looked when your going on blind meta - its tutorable answer vs masses of Toxes (EtW/Zombies from Bridges), and can be also used vs Aragothian Enchantress, also can be used as removal.

The deck drops so many permanents that cost 1 or 2. Running EE seems suicidal.


@Aven Mindcensor in number 3 MD - this dude is really good in 70% of MU. Blocking important things like SFM/GSZ/Fetches/Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll etc.., and Flash + Flying which is great with equips - great in Mirrors.

I think it depends on the meta, but I could see where it would be good.


@One MD Birds of Paradise - slow down exalted triggers, but can save your ass vs Hive Mind Pacts.

Also it's just good to have a grabbable flyer. I also played a game recently where it single handedly won against a board involving Ensnaring Bridge and a Pithing Needle on Pridemage.

[Fatal]

@IBA about EE - after EtW it doesn't matter how creatures you have for 0.. it is single shot win, also take a note that with actual mana base u can even set up EE for 4 :] (narrow usable)

Surgical is nice as one of vs combo - if it come it will be good as surprise, it can also take off problematic cards which is hard to handle for example removal in mirror. I think this card has nice use, but not more slots than one in SB.

Playing as combo player the worst thing which you can is diversity from many angles, static hate, counters, extripates, and clock - if you build resilent SB which can work in many ways on many situations - it will be the best SB.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@IBA about EE - after EtW it doesn't matter how creatures you have for 0.. it is single shot win, also take a note that with actual mana base u can even set up EE for 4 :] (narrow usable)

How many ETW decks are there in your meta? This seems less than relevant.


Surgical is nice as one of vs combo - if it come it will be good as surprise, it can also take off problematic cards which is hard to handle for example removal in mirror. I think this card has nice use, but not more slots than one in SB.

This is the kind of thing I don't understand. If the card was good you would at least want more in your SB, even if you couldn't fit them in. It's not a tutor target or a late game card; if you're fighting combo you need help in the short term. This is the kind of thing people side in because they think they'll just mise into it in the rare instance that it's relevant, which is just fucking awful. Would you play one StP and just hope to draw it when your opponent had a creature?


Playing as combo player the worst thing which you can is diversity from many angles, static hate, counters, extripates, and clock - if you build resilent SB which can work in many ways on many situations - it will be the best SB.

It looks like you threw extirpates in the middle there and again it's really not that relevant most of the time.

[Fatal]

@IBA I'm tired repeating it again, its good to have many ways hate on different combo decks.

Lets talk about sb plan, I actually use this one on blind meta:

Gaddock Teeg MD, and 3 Missteps MD and Ooze.

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Wing Shards
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

Let see which MU is bad without SB:

1. Belcher
2. ANT
3. TES
4. Spiral Tide
5. Hive Mind
6. Enchantress - yes its bad pridemages want help.
7. Dredge - without nut hand it isn't favorable
8. Lands - still not great
9. Reanimator
10. Spanish Inquisition
11. Sneak Attack

That's all bad MU. Mostly combo decks, other MU which aren't great but mostly 50/50 are:
Zoo, Cat Sligh, Boros and Mirror middle-range.
2 Wing Shards

and also vs Control and heavy removal decks:
2 Life from the Loam

any blue:
1 Choke

Let see how I build SB:

GY hate:
Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Surgical Extraction - better with Reanimator, Lands, Dredge ( 3 cards - 3 decks) + E.Tutor for search - 4 slots MD out.

Storm hate:
2 Ethersworn Canonist, Surgical Extraction, EE - better with SI, ANT, TES, Spiral Tide, Belcher (4 cards - 5 decks) + E.Tutor - 5 slots from MD out.

S&T:
Surgical Extraction, 2 Ethersworn Canonist (only vs Hive Mind), Phyrexian Metamorph - Hive Mind, Sneak Attack both decks use Intuition - vs Hive Mind its hard, Gaddock helps, also Canonist with Pridemage on table before its too late - (4 slots - 2 decks more) + E.Tutor

Enchantments/Artifacts:
Serenity, Krosan Grip, EE(vs A. Enchantress),2 Ethersworn Canonist (vs Enchantress to slow it down) also Surgical Extraction (vs E.Presence) - Affinity, MUD, Enchantress - (5 slots - 3 more decks) + E.Tutor

That simply cover most of worst MU. Most of that cards are breaking for them, some of them are so-so hate but works on many other decks - I like this philosophy - have a chance to put many different hate cards vs your bad MU decks.

[Tao]

Did anyone think of the synergy between our own Pridemages and Parallax Wave? Remove all opposing creatures from the game, response destroy it with Pridemage???


HOLY FUCKING COW!!!

[Draener]

Doesn't work due to oracle text.

Fading 5 (This enchantment comes into play with five fade counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a fade counter from it. If you can't, sacrifice it.)
Remove a fade counter from Parallax Wave: Remove target creature from the game if Parallax Wave is in play.
When Parallax Wave leaves play, each player returns to play all cards other than Parallax Wave he or she owns removed from the game with Parallax Wave.

I, too, am saddened by this.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I did, although I didn't mention it because that's two cards and a bunch of mana already. I'm sure there's situations where it's really good to be able to do that, but it doesn't seem like it should come up often enough to be a main draw.

@Draener: You may be looking at an outdated wording (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?printed=false&name=Parallax%20Wave).

Also, generally because no one on MWS seems to understand this:

Fading does not cause the permanent to die when the last counter is removed. Fading causes the permanent to die when you are unable to remove another counter. This is why they made Vanishing a new ability on Calciderm et al. (compare Blastoderm), because it was counter-intuitive to a lot of people.


@IBA I'm tired repeating it again, its good to have many ways hate on different combo decks.

I mean you can keep repeating it but that's not going to mean that Surgical Extraction is effective hate. Certainly not as a random one-of.


That simply cover most of worst MU. Most of that cards are breaking for them, some of them are so-so hate but works on many other decks - I like this philosophy - have a chance to put many different hate cards vs your bad MU decks.

Like Mana Tithe is really good against people whose main plan against you is Wrath and Deed, especially in conjunction with Wasteland. Extirpate effects are good against Loam decks and Reanimator. In this they're no different than the answers you can actually tutor for like Ooze and Bojuka Bog.

Again, if the card were actually good you wouldn't say you wouldn't want more than one. You say something like that because it's good in a few niche situations and you convince yourself you're always going to draw it when you need it but only then.

[Humphrey]

Where did you get this weird oracle text?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Parallax%20Wave

It is working indeed.

[Draener]

Hmm, so it is. I got it off the card link, and I'm pretty sure at one point the card was erratad to that, but apparently it has been removed? Pretty Nifty interaction.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The cardbox link does say that, weird. I would immediately be suspicious of anything that looks like power-level errata in general as they've mostly eliminated that.

[Koby]

Step 1 - Select upto 5 targets.
Step 2 - Remove counters targeting those creatures.
Step 3 - Retain priority, and respond by destroying Parallax Wave.

Which results in the following stack: (bottom to top)
PW#1-5, Destroy PW.

Resolve Last In, First Out:
Parallax Wave is destroyed, returning to play all creatures currently exiled.
Parallax Wave effect #1-5 resolve, exiling targeted creatures.

Using this method you can permanently exile creatures. If you have Witness, you can even get Parallax Wave back after all your shenanigans by resolving PW's exile on Witness, clearing the stack, then performing the above actions.

The card has had power level errata removed. We discussed this 2 years ago (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15064-Parallax-Errata-Undone&)

[Artlee]

Like Mana Tithe is really good against people whose main plan against you is Wrath and Deed, especially in conjunction with Wasteland. Extirpate effects are good against Loam decks and Reanimator. In this they're no different than the answers you can actually tutor for like Ooze and Bojuka Bog.
Against Reanimator, which has gained popularity recently, a tutored Ooze or tutored Bog from KotR is simply too slow. If Reanimator keeps gaining popularity I could see a reason for siding some Surgical Extractions.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Even then Surgical Extraction is going to be worse than Crypt if for no other reason than it gets hit by Mental Misstep. Literally the only reason to run Surgical Extraction is Loam decks.

[Hopo]

Literally the only reason to run Surgical Extraction is Loam decks.

Now that's hyperbole.
Surgical Extraction can be a fine choice as graveyard hate for being free and surprising. Free hate cards are usually great for letting you advance your board the way your deck is intended to do. Permanent grave hate, free or not, can and will be played around easier than instant ones.

Surgical Extraction enables potentially strong plays outside graveyard centric games also. First turn Wasteland + Surgical Extraction can stop opponent's mana development. Not saying that this is too common of a scenario, but the card sure has it's uses outside fighting Loam.

[Julian23]

Ok, switched over from Merfolk in preparation for GP Amsterdam since I came to believe that GW Maverick is the most well rounded and overall strongest deck in the metagame. Hope I'll be able to provide some input in the future. Right now I'm using the latest Hausmann/Kronberger built and been super satisfied with it although this deck is quite demanding regarding decision making. Funny enough, in my last Daily Event on MODO, my opponents in Round 1 AND 2 timed out in game2 because the gamestate was too complicated :D

Regarding grave hate, I don't advise to run Surgical Extraction. Not because it overall sucks but because it's applications are too limited to justify a sb slot. Stick with Crypt, Bog or even Ravenous Trap, if you really want a surprise spell. Most decks you wannt graveyard hate against will be combo decks running Mental Misstep.
From my experienxe, the best card against Reanimator is Karakas as most of their targets will either be Legendary (That Jin-Gitaxias guy or Iona) or die to removal, especially against Wing Shards.

[Koby]

Surgical Extraction enables potentially strong plays outside graveyard centric games also. First turn Wasteland + Surgical Extraction can stop opponent's mana development. Not saying that this is too common of a scenario, but the card sure has it's uses outside fighting Loam.

This is the danger of cool things. While it's impressive when it occurs, it doesn't answer any on-board threats, nor does it always achieve the result you wish to happen.

This deck isn't a dedicated LD deck, so such a play isn't even optimal for what you're trying to achieve with Maverick. Stick to what works and is consistent - Wastelanding to buy time, and bashing face with beaters.

@Julian23 - I saw your most recent MTGO list, and I have some questions for you. Considering that you are gearing up to play this deck at GP Amsterdam, are you not concerned that the list is vulnerable to combo? Especially considering that the MTGO metagame is 50% Stoneblade and 30% combo (Elves, Hive Mind, and ANT). Your sideboard is geared to address G/B/x mid-range rather than U/x combo. How did your sideboard perform in the last Daily? What would you change to address a more varied and wide open metagame such as a Grand Prix?

[Julian23]

You're right about my sb, it was more geared towards the local metagame. I recently changed my MODO sideboard to:

2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wing Shards
2x Path to Exile
2x Choke
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Thrun, the last Troll
1x Serenity
1x Manriki-Guzari (equipment that kills equipment)

Clearly, combo still remains our Achilles' heel. However, judging from my experience, I don't expect Combo to be as big in Amsterdam as it is on MODO. This + the fact that I'm expecting/hoping to win a GP Trial or at least have 1-2 Rating BYEs also lowers the chance of hitting a storm combo deck.

Regarding the non-storm combo matchups, Hive Mind is the biggest concern. Ethersworn Canonist is actually ok against them as they can't kill you the turn they drop Hive Mind which opens up GSZ->QPM to kill Hive Mind. Right now I consider adding a singleton Birds of Paradise to be able to pay for at least 1 Pact. Still, you will have to mulligan aggrssively for cards that actually do something in that matchup. If anyone of you is aware of a sb card that would actually "wreck" Hive Mind/Show and Tell, please bring it up. I'd love to try it.

In the DE you asked, my Mirran Crusaders where underperforming in the way that I hardly ever boarded them. They're ok against Team America but I don't expect that to be as big as in the SCG events.

I'm also trying -1 Mother of Runes +1 Scavenging Ooze in the main.

[Tao]

Like against Storm combo Thron of Amethyst is good vs. Hive Mind, too. It does double work because they have to pay 1 Extra for the Show and Tell and 1 Extra for the Pact so they can't Combo without 5 Mana on the table. Seven Mana for the hard cast.
Plus they have to pay one Extra for each of their other spells (Search, Tutor, Counter, Monolith) which is very good against their awkward Mana, especially if you support it with Wasteland.

Thorn is much better than any other combo hate. It is harder to get rid off than hate bears (Slaughter Pact, Massacre don't work). It is not only effective in their Combo turn but also the turns before while they are finding their cards. It is good vs. every Combo deck (except for Elves, ok) and not only against specific Combos.

[jnosrati]

Few words about ideas posted upper:

@Parallax Wave - I don't know how your test was, it's only good vs Aggro/Middle Aggro Mirror - cutting such a bombs like's KotRs and such useful creatures with much less cost like Qasali Pridemage (useful in mirrors/control/exalted etc) is wrong in my eyes. 4 Mana enchantments which temporary remove creatures from the game isn't best way imo. It can be on sb on Middle-Aggro etc, but one pridemage can just blow up this enchantment. It also blind card vs combo which is our weakness - so this slots should cover it not next dead card with 4cmc - please post test results vs mix meta with it.

@Second Dryad - its useful, but also brings impact on starting hand - hand with Dryad is good only if it is your 3-4th land on hand otherwise you are in dengerous with screw after any removal.

@Mana Tithe - Force Spike is good only once. This card can be overplayed so easy so it's not worth.

--------------------

Card which I tested on side and MD:

@Srugical Extraction - Very good card after tests, Free mana Extripate, which is mostly big surprise (no black at all, except Bojuka) won me a game vs Aggro Loam and makes easier MU vs dredge. It also was MVP vs Sneak/S&T/Hive Mind after he cast Intuition.

@Engineered Explosives - This should be looked when your going on blind meta - its tutorable answer vs masses of Toxes (EtW/Zombies from Bridges), and can be also used vs Aragothian Enchantress, also can be used as removal.

@Aven Mindcensor in number 3 MD - this dude is really good in 70% of MU. Blocking important things like SFM/GSZ/Fetches/Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll etc.., and Flash + Flying which is great with equips - great in Mirrors.

@One MD Birds of Paradise - slow down exalted triggers, but can save your ass vs Hive Mind Pacts.

I play zoo. could you please explain a bit about surgical vs intuition vs hive mind. I've never played the deck.

What's your zoo matchup like anyhow? would sb pyroclasm help?

[timmycolossus]

Hey Fatal I was curious... How is the match up analysis improved with mental misstep? I read your primer but it did not have mm as mvp in any of the MU's or mention how useful it is in each MU. Also stoneblade and no rug are common in my meta. What would you suggest I put in the MD or Sb to make the MU stronger?

[The Duck!!]

Hey Fatal I was curious... How is the match up analysis improved with mental misstep? I read your primer but it did not have mm as mvp in any of the MU's or mention how useful it is in each MU. Also stoneblade and no rug are common in my meta. What would you suggest I put in the MD or Sb to make the MU stronger?

If my meta is the same as yours, I'd play MD 3 aven mindcensor. It's just my opinion though.

[timmycolossus]

@The Duck: Thank you. Also would mirran crusader be just as good if not better (inyour opinion) Iyo

[Fatal]

Actually MM is a tempo card with similar function - anti-removal as mother of runes. It also helps in worst MU which is mostly combo.

Little analysis vs what MM is good:

-Dredge (slow them down)

-Reanimator

-Storm Combo (protect your hate-bears from removal/discard, also disrupt early kills in turn 1 - but not always), also countering cantrips specially brainstorms which can buy time.

-Spiral Tide - obv countering High Tide and so on.

-NO RUG, Mirror, Team America .. etc anti-removal/anti-discard/anti-stifle function which is present almost in any deck (StP, Ghastly demise, bounce via chain of vapors, lightning bolt) and provide tempo card countering noble hierarch/GSZ for 0 - also good in mirror.

-protect your early drops from opponents MM which is very important in this deck.

- countering Vial in merfolks and goblins

- countering lackey in goblins

-vs Junk - protect you from turn one discard and also vs metion upper StP.

-countering Sensei's Divining Top (junk/cb)

It easier wrote in which MU this card isn't good - Chalice decks, MUD, Stax, Aggro Loam with Chalices.

So why we don't run playset - because this card is good mostly on opening hand, and in middle-game, while cutting more creatures we don't get benefits from while don't having enough clock on table.

It's one of the worst draw playing on topdeck mode having empty table.

@RUG:

MM are very good here and also Aven Mindcensor - with MM you can counter their removal - also Lavamancer and Hierarch which is dengerous on start (don't forget that they have the same weapon vs you). Aven's stops Natural Order they don't run so many creatures so playing Aven in respond can be surprising and can win you the game. Gaddock Teeg also stops NO and also Submerge which is their mostly sb plan, Scryb Rangers are nice vs Cliques. Batterskull, Jitte and SoLS can outrace Progenitus mostly works on flyers, more over Wing Shards and Phyrexian Metamorph is good removal vs hydra.
Fatties (Goyfs/KotRs) is what you beat with - Lightning Bolt can kill only something with defense X<=3, look out for Ooze and lavamancer they can change graveyard state.

So MVP are: MM, Avens, Gaddock, Equips gaining life, Flyers, Fatties, Wing Shards, Phyrexian Metamorph - this MU isn't so bad depends on skill and drawn hand, its about 55% for us.

@Stone Blade - depends on build mostly I faced with Ancestral Visions.

This deck is similar to U/W control but with less removal and counters, and more creatures - Cliques/SFM.

The most important thing on start is to provide tempo vs this deck which, can protect them self too much. SFM are slow, can be killed, and also can be hated by Aven Mindcensors. Also Gaddock MD helps here (also after sideboard) - it stops - hardcasting Batterskull, Repeals, Jaces, WoG, Submerges. From my tests the best thing what u can do is to equip Scryb Ranger with SoLS - this dude with this Sword is gamebreaking for them, they can't do anything with him - protection from StP/Batterskull/Clique/Jace, can block without any problems Batterskull, fly over Mishras. Pridemages with tempo can also be useful.
Also MM can protect your mana drops (hierarch) from being killed, also its useful to resolve your own StP.

So MVP in this MU: Scryb Ranger, SoLS, Pridemages, Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensors, StP, MM.

Every game I played against on tournament empty the hand (and mostly resolve) before visions, so having lethal after it resolve, then he just put jaces+stp and still have problems, just attack Jace (if not lethal yet) and recast bounced creature. After 2-3 jaces they're removal ends and couldn't do anything.
If your important equip died (SoLS) just bring it back from Witness.

[Elvtyrr]

I'm not sure if you guys would consider it but I've found that the best anti-reanimator card is faerie macabre. It's free, uncounterable, remains in hand until used, and hits up to two things. I personally like it far better than most of the other 'hidden information' pieces of grave hate. It will even buy you enough time to get there against most dredge decks, this requires very tight play though. All in all, it is IMO the most versatile piece of grave hate out there and is well worth the SB slots in any deck not running a tutor or wish board.

[Julian23]

Since some people asked via pm for it, my current incarnation which is mostly what Hausmsann and Kronberger are running right now. Major differences are 2nd Library over Elspeth and Maze instead of 2nd Basic Plains.


4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
2 Foresst
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

SB:

2 Wing Shards
2 Path to Exile
2 Choke
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Manriki Gusari

which leaves me with 4 sideboard slots which are currently occupied by 1 Ethersworn Canonist and 3 Angel's Grace. The later is mainly there to combat Hive Mind which is quite popular on MODO right now. The singleton Ethersworn Canonist however isn't really what I am looking for. Second Teeg might be better.

[timmycolossus]

Actually MM is a tempo card with similar function - anti-removal as mother of runes. It also helps in worst MU which is mostly combo.

Little analysis vs what MM is good:

-Dredge (slow them down)

-Reanimator

-Storm Combo (protect your hate-bears from removal/discard, also disrupt early kills in turn 1 - but not always), also countering cantrips specially brainstorms which can buy time.

-Spiral Tide - obv countering High Tide and so on.

-NO RUG, Mirror, Team America .. etc anti-removal/anti-discard/anti-stifle function which is present almost in any deck (StP, Ghastly demise, bounce via chain of vapors, lightning bolt) and provide tempo card countering noble hierarch/GSZ for 0 - also good in mirror.

-protect your early drops from opponents MM which is very important in this deck.

- countering Vial in merfolks and goblins

- countering lackey in goblins

-vs Junk - protect you from turn one discard and also vs metion upper StP.

-countering Sensei's Divining Top (junk/cb)

It easier wrote in which MU this card isn't good - Chalice decks, MUD, Stax, Aggro Loam with Chalices.


Thanks so much I will test it out. The big question now is mindcensor vs Mirran crusader for the stoneblade and rug MU. I think I am going to run with mindcensor bc of the MU he is good in.

[Julian23]

Aven Mindcensor is one of your major ways to combat combo, so keep 3 maindeck. Really, he's that good against almost any deck, even if it's just for turn 2 Mindcensor screwing up Fetchlands.

[dahcmai]

Just since you guys don't remember it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15064-Parallax-Errata-Undone



Anyway, nice to see someone using that card again. I always loved it.

[Tao]

@Tao

Maybe our definition of autoloss is different. In my opinion it is about 15% and lower.
With both a playset of MMS and Thorn of Amethyst, you need 1 copy of each in you opener, plus 2-3 lands/ramp and 1-2 decent beaters/jitte. Of course you need that draw in 2 out of 3 games . Any half-decent Comboplayer (half-decent = player who has a good matchup against the goldfish) will combo off against your goddraw most of the time.

No, our definition seems the same. The matchup just isn't as bad as you think. Combo decks don't always have their turn 2 kill. They can struggle on Mana, miss one of their key spells etc. With 4 Missteps, a Teeg to tutor for and 4 Thorns post board we should be getting to somewhere between 30% and 35% for the whole best of 3 depending on which Combo deck we face.

[2Rach]

No, our definition seems the same. The matchup just isn't as bad as you think. Combo decks don't always have their turn 2 kill. They can struggle on Mana, miss one of their key spells etc. With 4 Missteps, a Teeg to tutor for and 4 Thorns post board we should be getting to somewhere between 30% and 35% for the whole best of 3 depending on which Combo deck we face.
The questions then become, if you only get a 30-35% matchup with sideboarding, is it worth taking up 4-5 slots in the sideboard? Wouldn't those be better spent on other bad matchups that could be made positive?

[264505]

Anyone ever consider True Believer as a way to combat storm combo? You can play GSZ when they blow their load to try and tendrils you.

[Hopo]

Anyone ever consider True Believer as a way to combat storm combo? You can play GSZ when they blow their load to try and tendrils you.

GSZ is a sorcery and True Believer is white. You people should first read the cards you are trying to discuss about.

[264505]

My bad, I don't own a copy of GSZ nor have I played against one. I'm gonna crawl back in my hole and keep an eye on this thread while I relearn the cards. 4 years is a long time away.

[menace13]

My bad, I don't own a copy of GSZ nor have I played against one. I'm gonna crawl back in my hole and keep an eye on this thread while I relearn the cards. 4 years is a long time away.
Most lists use Teeg as a GSZ target against Storm, but Storm has like only 10 players left in the entire world post Misstep.

[Machahiko]

So, what's your opinion on Rafiq of the Many? I've been glad using him the one time I've played this deck in a tournament. I didn't see him too much in my starting hands and every time I was able to play him, I won the game. Usually the same turn I played him, or the next turn after playing him. Mother of Runes hitting for 18 damage is nothing to sneeze at. The burn player was left wondering what the fuck had just happened.

He sure do puts a bit stress on the manabase, but I'm left wondering why did people ditch him. Also ; Quirion Ranger. I understand Scryb Ranger by all means, he has flying, flash, pro blue.. so much great abilities for one colorless mana. Is Quirion Ranger really worth it, it's much easier to fetch with GSZ but her abilities are greatly inferior to Scryb Ranger's.

I would be more than glad to hear your opinion about the Dredge matchup and how to approach it. Should you just GSZ scavenging ooze asap and what equipment is actually the best against Dredge? Batterskull or Jitte? Let's assume that you have played T1 noble hierarch and for turn 2 you have: 2 lands (savannah and horizon canopy), Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith. What would you play, SFM or Zenith for Ooze?

Kinda hard question, because you have to follow what your opponent is doing and so forth, but I hope you'll understand where I'm going with this question without any additional explaining.

[Tao]

The questions then become, if you only get a 30-35% matchup with sideboarding, is it worth taking up 4-5 slots in the sideboard? Wouldn't those be better spent on other bad matchups that could be made positive?

Imo yes. Having an autoloss matchup is problematic because of our DtB status. Also Combo is quite popular and I don't think you get more total matchup improvement when you spend all of your SB slots against matchups that are already equal or positive.


So, what's your opinion on Rafiq of the Many? I've been glad using him the one time I've played this deck in a tournament. I didn't see him too much in my starting hands and every time I was able to play him, I won the game. Usually the same turn I played him, or the next turn after playing him. Mother of Runes hitting for 18 damage is nothing to sneeze at. The burn player was left wondering what the fuck had just happened.

He sure do puts a bit stress on the manabase, but I'm left wondering why did people ditch him. Also ; Quirion Ranger. I understand Scryb Ranger by all means, he has flying, flash, pro blue.. so much great abilities for one colorless mana. Is Quirion Ranger really worth it, it's much easier to fetch with GSZ but her abilities are greatly inferior to Scryb Ranger's.

I would be more than glad to hear your opinion about the Dredge matchup and how to approach it. Should you just GSZ scavenging ooze asap and what equipment is actually the best against Dredge? Batterskull or Jitte? Let's assume that you have played T1 noble hierarch and for turn 2 you have: 2 lands (savannah and horizon canopy), Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith. What would you play, SFM or Zenith for Ooze?

Kinda hard question, because you have to follow what your opponent is doing and so forth, but I hope you'll understand where I'm going with this question without any additional explaining.

Rafiq is a 4 drop and 4-drops usually win the game if they stick. Elspeth and Parallax Wave also just win very often. It is hard to come to a conclusion on such a topic.
Scryb Ranger has been discussed before. He is extemely good imo. Some people disagree while others up his count to 2 because unlike Quirion Ranger it is a card you want to draw. It is some kind of total package, you get much utility and evasion.
In the Dredge scenario Zenith for the Ooze. It is extremely strong against Dredge. If their draw is beatable Ooze will beat it. The best equipment depends on the situation. Both Batterskull and Jitte are very good. Usually Jitte is better because it can RFG their Bridges by killing your own small guys. But Batterskull gains more life and puts more pressure on them.

[Fatal]

From my observation:

Against Dredge it mostly depends on situation:

If dredge player dredge a lot of moeba's and and dredge return but is unable to cast it yet - Gaddock can be good.

If dredge player dredge a lot of ichorids - ooze will be better note advice - don't remove with ooze before he dredge, in upkeep (unless you fight against ichorids only) just wait to draw phase. You can avoid dredge return target or some moeba's on stack.

About equipment - Jitte is best here. Batterskull is just to slow, but u can bounce to kill bridges.

[Elvtyrr]

I dunno, about Batterskull being the slower option here, as When you are fighting against dredge, a deck with no removal, you will be cheating this into play. So its cost is the same as Jitte to play, 1W and tap your stoneforge, Then you have to equip jitte for 2 and swing, which is not likely until the next turn because of tapped stoneforge and your already spending 2 mana to play it, to even be able to have the counters on jitte to kill your own stuff. While you can have the germ token for free ready to block immediately and swing next turn, all the while pumping your life total and if you leave three open at anytime you can kill all of thier bridges by bouncing the batterskull and letting the germ die.

[Tao]

Good to know about bouncing Batterskull, never thought about it. Because Batterskull is cearly the faster card. Jitte costs 1W + 1W + 2 to get online, and 2 extra each turn that you want to attack and block with it. Batterskull costs only 1W + 1W.

[Philipp2293]

Unless I can smell the therapy, I try to get Batterskull most of the time, yesterday I played against Dredge twice (well, actually I drew against the 2nd Dredge and then played it out just for fun) and I've removed a fair number of bridges with the skull.

[Koby]

I still prefer to have Jitte as it allows you to prevent Bridge tokens from going out of control, as well as controlling the amount of x/1's Dredge decks pop out. This is important in stopping Dread Return from becoming active.

That said, the following cards are all invaluable in this matchup:
Scavenging Ooze - requires heavy green mana (primary targets: Bridge, Ichorids, Dredgers, in that order)
Swords to Plowshares - good for taking out discard outlets and Ichorids
Mental Misstep - anything it can hit
Jitte - controls Bridges and Ichorid recursions
Batterskull - lifegain and token-popping.

The last one is a last ditch effort. Popping the Germ token is very mana intense and all you get out of it is cancelling the Bridge from Below. I much prefer using Jitte since it keeps you the aggressor, triggers on both attacking and defending, and is overall more versatile.

For people that also run E-tutors in the sideboard, consider Engineered Explosives as insurance against tokens from EtW, Thopter Foundry, and Bridge from Below.

[schniggaz]

I played a tournament yesterday in Nuremberg (The GW-Meta). I wanted to test some cards you suggested in this thread. That means: Mental Misstep and Parallax Wave. Unfortunately I was a really drunk the night before and made a few mistake. We were 30 Players and I finished 4th Place, going 4-1.

Here is the decklist:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Eternal Witness
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mental Misstep
3 Parallax Wave
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard

1 Loaming Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Serenity
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nature's Claim
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
2 Wing Shards
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip

A short report:
Round 1: Enchantress
Game one I just died with two Swords to Plowshares in my hand. A virtual Mulligan to five is not the way to go.
Game two I was able to destroy all his Enchantress Presence with Qasalis and Harmonic Sliver. Missteped a few Elephand Grass and raced his Sigil of the Emtpy Throne.
Game three: Again I was able to handle his Enchantress Presence, but couldn’t put pressure on him. He manages to get Argothian Enchantress and drew too many cards. I scooped after he plays his Replenish. Couldn’t win at this point.

0-1

Round 2: GW-Maverick (my list from Bazaar of Moxen with only a few changes)
I played against a friend of mine. He was still drunk and puked four times in a row on our way to the tournament.
Game one was all about making fewer mistakes. I won this one, can’t remember how exactly I won this match.
Game two we screwed each other with Swords and Wastelands from him and Misstep, Swords and Wasteland on my side. We both missed a few landdrops and I was able to topdeck lands and won this match.

1-1

Round 3: Dragon Stompy
Game one I got hit really hard by a Magus of the Moon and wasn’t able to play spells. He followed it with and SoBaM. And I scooped.
Game two I fetched my basics, was able to drop a Noble Hierarch and won the game really easily.
Game three he mulliganed to 6, destroyed my first two creatures with Flametongue Kavu. I dropped Eternal Witness (great blocker for Flametongue Kavus xD) and was able to take control of the game. After the Kavus are gone, he dropped Lord of Shatterskull Pass and Rakdos Pit Dragon. I dropped two Parallax Wave and simply raced him.

2-1

Round 4: UBG-Vision-Control
Game one wasn’t that difficult. Wastelands and more Wastelands of Eternal Witness won me the game.
Game two he handled all my spells and beat my down with an Tarmogoyf.
Game three was a long game, but I was able to get SoFaF, Batterskull, Knight, Mindcensor and a Ranger on the table, while he only has two Tarmogoyfs -à I won.

3-1

Round 5: Cephalid Breakfast
Game one he comboed turn 4. So I died.
Game two I mulliganed to 6, he to 5. I kept a bad hand, did not have any pressure, but a Mental Misstep and a Krosan Grip (I am not sure if I should board this one in). I was able to draw threats and won the game.
Game three he mulliganed again and I kept a hand with a few lands, 3 Missteps and a Zenith. Again not much pressure, but a lot of disruption. I countered most of his spells, witnessed back my Missteps and won the game.
4-1

A few thoughts:
Misstep was great. I had to cut my Mother of Runes for it, but it was fine. I always payed two life but didn’t regret it once.

Parallax Wave: Whenever I had it in play I won the games. Didn’t draw it often. This definitely needs more testing.

All in all I was not satisfied with the list I played. Sometimes I wasn’t able to put enough pressure on the table. This was also the first tournament where my Aven Mindcensors didn’t do anything, except being 2-1 flying creatures.

[Machahiko]

I went 2-2-1 today in a tournament. I drew mediocre/bad but I can't blame the deck for anything, it was _ME_ who played really bad. I was tired and I did mistakes in every game I played.

Aven Mindcensor wasn't needed that much. I went down to 3 mother of runes, I want to go back to 4 again. Rafiq of the Many was a removal magnet (oh really?) and I really like the card still. I played 2 Scryb Ranger because I thought there would be a lot of blue. There was, but I didn't play against single blue deck in the whole tournament. Thrun did bad once again while Sylvan Library was good always even through I lost one game while having library online. (he had bob and I didn't have removal or anything for it, boo hoo.)

Will be trying out Parallax Wave, I need to play a lot more with this deck, I did so many dumb mistakes that I'm just ashamed of myself. Also, 4 Horizon Canopy is too much. -2 canopy +1 savannah +1 windswept heath. I had two swords of x & y in my deck, they didn't come handy most of the time. Sword of Fire and Ice is the strongest sword, but I don't know did I ever fetch it.. it was always SoLaS, Batterskull or Jitte.

I did learn one thing today though: Scavenging Ooze is the real deal. It's just awesome. Aven Mindcensor kept on disappointing me.

[danpo]

Yesterday we tried to have a rare Legacy tournament in Murfreesboro, which fell through due to basically a room full of "Meh, I GUESS I'll keep this." Eight willing players in a room, more than eight decks, what the hell damn guys?
So instead a handful of us spent the afternoon swapping piles and asking "Can I play whoever wins here?"
Some matches we took a little more seriously than others w/r/t sideboards and rulings, but basically I went 4-0 with G/W beating Merfolk, Dredge, ANT and CounterThopters.
Here is the list I played:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mental Misstep
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sylvan Library
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

SB
4 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Choke

Against Merfolk, Scryb Ranger was just punishing, and going on to equip her made me feel like a jerk. I had underrated this card until I realized its ability basically gives your team vigilance. Deciding whether or not to block an exalted Mirran Crusader is also a lose-lose proposition for the opponent. I think I used Noble Hierarch to hardcast Misstep on a late Cursecatcher to keep him from chumping.

Against Ichorid, one game he mulled to oblivion and another I found an early Teeg to shut off Dread Return and then got Ooze to ruin him. Somewhere in here I Misstepped a discard outlet as well. Jerky.

Against ANT G1 I Misstepped an early cantrip, then he Duressed revealing all creatures and land he couldn't hit before scooping to Gaddock Teeg. He wasn't super-experienced with the deck yet and I suspect that hurt him in places.
G2 I was able to E.Tutor out a fast Canonist and backed it up with Mindcensor. He tried to EOT Echoing Truth my Mindcensor and then Chain of Vapor my Canonist, but I had the Misstep to protect it. Mindcensor stunted a couple of attempts at tutoring here, which was nice.

Counterthopters was hectic.
G1 I got two fast Hierarchs and when he went to Engineered Explosives them I had the Misstep. I kept putting off playing a Bojuka Bog in my hand even though the extra mana would've been nice, because my dumb ass kept thinking for some reason that clearing his graveyard at sorcery speed would be uesful at some point. :-/ Not reely...
Anyway I connected a couple of times with double-exalted Mirran Crusader (rude!) before he slammed down an Ensnaring Bridge. He assembled the Thopter combo but with Ooze on the board and green mana open I was able to keep him off it by threatening to exile his Sword of the Meek. It was close but I was able to finish the job bashing in under the Bridge using Hierarchs.

Now, a word on Gaddock Teeg: he is my hero. As someone who has spent more than a decade wanting to flood the board with jerks and basically cold walking into Wrath of God the whole time, Gaddock Teeg is my boy. I have fond memories of shutting down half of old-school Landstill decks with him and Mother of Runes, to say nothing of Storm decks whose only bounce was Repeal. But this love affair with the wrinkly spotted kithkin bastard is sometimes a liability. Case in point:

G2 I E.Tutored out a Null Rod but he E.Tutored an Oblivion Ring to deal with it. I bait out a Force of Will with GSZ for three - my opponent remarks that he doesn't want to see Teeg, though I would've instead gotten the Ooze because Teeg was in my hand.
Also in my hand after I resolved Teeg: a trapped Zenith.
Also never in my hand that game: Krosan Grips or Pridemages to stop the Thopter Combo from killing me under Ensnaring Bridge. Booo...
My logic had been that Teeg would shut off scary stuff like Moat and Planeswalkers and Explosives and more Forces, but losing the game with two Zeniths trapped in my hand was painful. Probably I should've tutored for Choke to begin with. D'oh.

G3 sees him get the Thopter Combo online while my mana is still developing, but before he can get too crazy I'm lucky and find a Scryb Ranger, Aven Mindcensor and Sword of Fire and Ice. Thopters are blue! Several turns go back and forth where he's gaining a few life and making some flappers, and I'm bashing through with the Sword to shock a guy and draw a card, holding back all but a few points from his air force with equipped Mindcensor, untapped via Scryb Ranger and bolstered by Maze of Ith.
This goes on for quite awhile, during which I Wasteland an Academy Ruins, find Pridemage to kill one Foundry only to see him play another, rip into Krosan Grip, and ultimately Eternal Witness getting back Krosan Grip to seal the deal. Good games Carlos.

Thoughts on some cards:
- I never saw Sylvan Library, but with all the shuffle effects available it seems really fun.
- Thrun, the Last Troll and Elspeth, Knight Errant both tempted me to play with them like a lot, but I ended up being glad to have a low curve. See also: Batterskull.
- I had been thinking of Mirran Crusader v. Aven Mindcensor as an either/or but was glad to have both. Not being able to Zenith for them was sometimes annoying, but I think that reflects positively on their utility.
- I love love love Mother of Runes, but Mental Misstep was just better in that slot. It lets you interact and disrupt in ways Mom can't, and lets you spend crucial early mana elsewhere.
- Boarding in Null Rod can be a head-scratcher because it turns off the ability to equip, but against Thopters for instance you don't necessarily want to board out all your gear either.
- Similarly, while pairing Zenith with Teeg can seem loose, I think he offers so much in the way of disruption for some decks like Storm and Dredge that it's worth the awkwardness.

So yeah! Good luck have fun and happy Zenithing...

[Koby]

It should be noted that you can use Karakas to bounce Teeg and continue Zenithing, then replay Teeg. It's subtle, but sometimes relevant.

[timmycolossus]

Hello fellow maverick players I had a couple questions before I embark onto a tournament this week. My SB looks like this:

SB 15
2x krosan grip
2x wing shards
2x choke
2x Enlightened tutor
1x gaddock
1x Ethersworn
1x null rod
1x sundial of the infinite
1x EE
1x tormod’s crypt
1x bojuka bog

My deck itself will change depending on the answers I get to my question.
Meta:Majority: NO RUG Zoo merfolk stoneblade U/W bant aggro. very little: storm hivemind and reanimator and dredge
I do not run mental misstep right now.

Any thoughts on sundial of the infinite against hivemind or best tools against hivemind?

Also How many teeg should we be running in md and sb combined (i run one main and one side now) if we expect a lot of rug and stoneblade?

Also I like mirran crusader and has been proven to be good in my meta.

What are the upsides and downsides to him other than being burned out easily and if I have if md do I keep him in against zoo?

Lastly what are the best tools against any jace deck?

Sorry for so many questions. I have a tournament this week and just needed to workout the last few things in sideboard and maindeck after all the testing I have been doing for a month.

[CorpT]

Angel's Grace is good against Hive Mind. It can also be ok against an attacking Progenitus, but there are better answers to Progenitus than that.

[Tao]

Thorn of Amethyst Is currently the best Anti-Combo card available for Maverick. I know I said this a few times and always got ignored but still...

[timmycolossus]

Thorn of Amethyst Is currently the best Anti-Combo card available for Maverick. I know I said this a few times and always got ignored but still...

I agree with you Tao you are not being ignored. I just was wondering if sundail was any good? I wanted to test it out against in specific hivemind in place of thorn as much as I like thorn.

[timmycolossus]

Also I have wing shards for the the pro that says no so I do not need angels grace for that.
@Tao: what are your thoughts on mirran crusader against the decks I mention?

[Philipp2293]

Went 5:0 yesterday at my local, playing pretty much Morte's list with some minor changes.

Currently I consider adding a third scryb ranger, as he was the nuts all day yesterday. Back to basics? No care. Also scryb ranger allowed me a few times to shorten my clock by a crucial turn in close races, being able to use knight and attack, to push through exactly lethal. Any thoughts?

Also, I haven't been too impressed with SoFaI lately, I might try either SoFaF or SoLaS.

BTW, what is up what pretty much any Merfolk player that I run into claiming he has a good MU versus us?

[SageShadows]

I play the folk, and while I won my match up versus Maverick last time I played against it, I am in deep fear of seeing a Maverick deck on the opposite side of the table. Just my two cents.

[timmycolossus]

timmycolossus
Hello fellow maverick players I had a couple questions before I embark onto a tournament this week. My SB looks like this:

SB 15
2x krosan grip
2x wing shards
2x choke
2x Enlightened tutor
1x gaddock
1x Ethersworn
1x null rod
1x thorn of amethyst
1x EE
1x tormod’s crypt
1x bojuka bog

My deck itself will change depending on the answers I get to my question.
Meta:Majority: NO RUG Zoo merfolk stoneblade U/W bant aggro. very little: storm hivemind and reanimator and dredge

I do not run mental misstep right now.



Also How many teeg should we be running in md and sb combined (i run one main and one side now) if we expect a lot of rug and stoneblade?

Also I like mirran crusader and has been proven to be good in my meta.

What are the upsides and downsides to him other than being burned out easily and if I have if md do I keep him in against zoo?

Lastly what are the best tools against any jace deck?

[timmycolossus]

SOFI has not been doing it for me I agree with fatal SOLS is a nice sword to use.

[Koby]

Lastly what are the best tools against any jace deck?

I can't claim that I have the best tools against Jace decks, but Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker both do a good job putting the daggers on Jace himself. Oblivion Ring is also a good versatile tool, but might be too slow. It does however fall outside the 1 and 2 mana range that the Jace decks typically have control over.

[CorpT]

I can't claim that I have the best tools against Jace decks, but Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker both do a good job putting the daggers on Jace himself. Oblivion Ring is also a good versatile tool, but might be too slow. It does however fall outside the 1 and 2 mana range that the Jace decks typically have control over.

SoBaM is the best answer to Jace that I've seen. I can't imagine anyone using SoLaS though. I'm not sure what White or Black you need to protect against and the other bonuses are pretty weak.

[RogueMTG]

SoBaM is the best answer to Jace that I've seen. I can't imagine anyone using SoLaS though. I'm not sure what White or Black you need to protect against and the other bonuses are pretty weak.

It's decent in attrition matchups.

Protects your guy from a topdecked StP/Path/Dismember/Smother/Go for the Throat/etc. Lets you recur guys every turn, presenting a kind of inevitability that's hard to stop.

[myselves]

timmycolossus
Also How many teeg should we be running in md and sb combined (i run one main and one side now) if we expect a lot of rug and stoneblade?
Against RUG-Order: I would suggest 1 or 2, since he only stops NO and probably Submerge in this MU. And I don't see Teeg to be that useful against Stoneblade, is there anything than Jace, TMS that you are afraid of?



Also I like mirran crusader and has been proven to be good in my meta.
What are the upsides and downsides to him other than being burned out easily and if I have if md do I keep him in against zoo?
Considering your Meta.
Pro:
- he's nice against Stoneblade (blocking Batterskull due his own Prot:b)
- can shine vs. Bant with Prot:g, can also be useful when you have to race Progenitus
- additional Threat vs. Bant, RUG and in some cases against Zoo
- beast with exalted triggers

Con:
- double strike in combination with an Equipment will never work if your opponent thinks about and always chumps with small creatures. This s also getting worse by the exalted triggers.
- pretty useless against Merfolk or Goblins, unless you run SoFaI
- sometimes it can be dangerous to get WW to early (in your Meta this shouldn't be a problem)

Considering your Sideboard I would only bring in 1-2 E. Tutor, 1 EE and the Bojuka Bog against Zoo. If you have three worse cards than Crusader in your first 60 he stays in, if not... ;)



Lastly what are the best tools against any jace deck?
What Jace.dec?
If you mean Bugstill/Deadstill: Peedle on Deed (they have often no way to get rid of it than Deed) so that there are only 4-5 Removal+Jace left to deal with your resolved threats.

[myselves]

edit: sorry for double-posting, my bad

[Fatal]

Vs Stone Blade Teeg stops:

-WoG, Submerge - his SB plan
-hardcasting Batterskull - you have 4 StP on his 4 Mystics
-Jaces

His last hope are Cliques - Scryb Ranger is best answer for that.

I thing this is enough to put him.

Also great combine vs Stone Blade is Scryb Ranger with SoLS - it's unkillable without any WoG / Repeal on SoLS.

Vs all Jaces I found that the best thing is flashed creatures with flying.

Needle/O-Ring/Revoker aren't so great due to many ways how opponent can just destroy/counter it. All bant lists running Jaces have pridemages, Jacestill have Deeds, Stoneblade has Repeals - better kill not to turn off for a while. Note that Needle can be also missteped.

@CopT SoLS in such, a heavy creature deck (24-25 creatures in deck depends on list) is not just a draw engine. It brings protection which was mention before, but also is a constant draw engine, you just pick up all what most was countered - and first you pick best creature which you have in gy not the random card.

Also Prot from B blocks batterskull very well, additional thing - life gainning can be game saver vs races with progenitus - unblockable by progenitus so you can attack without block, and gaining life enough to take 2 punch from hydra - which batterskull can't - I won enough games vs S&T-> Progenitus showing SFM and finding SoLS to race.

Last good thing - prot W are also nice vs mirror blocking big KotRs, and being unblockable is nice.

Against Deedstill I used LD plan with Loam and Choke, they run so many nonbasics..

[timmycolossus]

Hey guys thank you so much for your help. As a result of what you guys said I will be running 2 scryb ranger. I wanted a creature pro jace clique merfolk repeal and submerge. I think this creature is perfect in the meta. Also to complete the flyers I will be running 2 aven. I know it should be 3 but I feel more comfortable running 2. I am keeping teeg 1 main and 1 sb. I am running 2 mirran. I wanted a creature that was pro KOTR gofy natcl and batterskull and progenitus. I think he fits that description well. If I run into merfork gobos I will sub him for wing shards. I am not afraid of jace. I just would hate to lose to him. The other thing about jace is he is run in a lot of decks and I want to make sure I have the best tools to deal with him. I upped my sfm to 4 because she has lets me draw a equip when she resolves. I have incorporated mental misstep into my deck while cutting mother of runes. Best decision in the deck. I was thinking before mother of runes with scyrb ranger was awesome but most of the time I wished it was misstep and never got that combination on the field. Last thing this is weir but i am running 4 equipments sols, sofi, jitte, and batterskull. I wanted them all and they are awesome. The only deck other than storm i lose to a lot pre board is dredge (manaless version). Thank you all so much for your help and hopefully after a month of working away at this deck I will do well.

(Yes chameleon colossus is my favorite creature)

[Fatal]

To win vs Dredge G1 just put Scavenging Ooze MD under zenith its autowin vs that slow version of dredge. It's also useful vs Team America, and all KotRs/Goyfs and Loam decks.

[Esper3k]

Has anyone else had problems with the Zoo matchup? I really like this deck, but having two tough matchups (combo, Zoo) seems really rough.

[Koby]

Against the Zoo matchup, Goyf is better suited. Kitchen Finks is a nice addition as well, in providing a large enough power to kill Nacatls and buffing your life total slightly. Extra spot removal (PtE) also helps. Try out Wing Shards and see if that improves some of your Zoo matchups.

[timmycolossus]

To win vs Dredge G1 just put Scavenging Ooze MD under zenith its autowin vs that slow version of dredge. It's also useful vs Team America, and all KotRs/Goyfs and Loam decks.


I agree but the manaless version that topped at starcity is the one that is giving me trouble preboard. I maindeck ooze and he has been useful in that match up but they have so many dredgers and so many guys that be used for dread return. I guess dread return is not the problem the combination of bloodghast ichorid and nether shadow can be a little tough. Post board this match does not seem to be a problem.
In regards to small zoo wing shards and one EE pretty effective. I do not know or have a lot of testing against big zoo. Tarmogoyf and terravore are also pretty effective here.

[Tao]

In theory the Zoo matchup is good. 4 Mother of Runes, 4 Stoneforges, 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 4 GSZ, 4 Swords, 1 Tarmogoyf plus 3-4 Path to Exiles in the Sideboard we are even slightly ahead I would say, despite Lavamancer being a pain in our butt. Our Mana Base is better, our Reliquaries are better and we have Stoneforges and Mother of Runes to compensate.

But the more Gaddocks, Mindcensors and Scryb Rangers pop up in main decks the worse the matchup gets.

[TossUsToLions]

Dueling Grounds helps against Zoo. We can handle them swinging with one 3/3, but trying to deal with 4 3/3's is tough. Like Tao said, the matchup is kinda rough G1, depending on how many dead cards you have against them. But after siding out those dead cards for Dueling Grounds, more removal, etc., the matchup swings more in out favor. Try and make them use their Paths on your important utility creatures, then stick a Knight or Terravore. Siding in extra removal, like was previously stated by Tao, is also good here.

The more I play the deck, the more I feel like I need Maze of Ith. There have been a countless number of games where I wish that I had it to search for it. Any others feel this same way?

I've also been testing Elspeth a lot, and it has been amazing. But then I went back to Sylvan Library and I feel like I win every game that I get it out. I like the 2cmc of Library as it curves out the deck nicer than the awkward 2WW casting cost of Elspeth. Is anyone running 1-2 Elsepth along with 2 Libraries, or does that dilute the deck too much and leave us with not enough creatures? It could lead to some awkward starting hands with no business, and I like making the deck as consistent as I can.

[Koby]

Is anyone running 1-2 Elsepth along with 2 Libraries, or does that dilute the deck too much and leave us with not enough creatures? It could lead to some awkward starting hands with no business, and I like making the deck as consistent as I can.

I started off with 2 Library 2 Elspeth, then quickly started cutting Elspeth for that reason. I run 1x Elspeth in the sideboard for the matchups where she's relevant (Hello Jace!)

[Mr.Dieth]

Hi, this weekend I played this list. I finished 3/4th, losing the quarter final to BUG landstill. Deed + jace really own's maverick. I could never get a grip on the game, He was in control all the time. What can I do to improve that match up? Because, it is really really bad with my current build.

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 thrun, the last troll
1 terravore
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Mental Misstep
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of feast and famine
1 batterskull

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 gaea's cradle
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

SB
2 true believer
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
1 gaddock teeg
1 serenity
2 life from the loam
1 bojuka bog
1 /forgot/

[timmycolossus]

I guess first up describe the games and what you think you did wrong. Also tell us what you sided in and sided out. I think sword of light and shadow would be good. Being able to bring back creatures is important in this match up. Also hitting their manabase with life from the loam choke and gy hate is key to shutting off their own life from the loam. The last thing is you usually need one fatty on the board so that their deed does not do as much harm to you.

[Mr.Dieth]

played 3 games against him, lost all three ( 1 was for fun )

preside: Not even close. Starting from turn three he started chaining standstill's. Countering/killing my treat's ( knight's ..) deed + jace is Really Really painfull.

after side. I sided +2 choke +2 lftl +2 tutor. I took out: -2scryb ranger -2stoneforge -1 jitte -1sword of feast and famine. ( now that I think of it, I probably should have took out the stp, But I wanted to go for the landkill plan so i kept the stp's in for killing mutavault and mishra ( played 1 mutavault and 4 mishra ).

So my plan after side was to generate CA with loam, and recur wastelands while getting choke's into play. Somehow this didn't work to well, because deed kills the choke. ( I do have to say he drew them well ) and he just countered the loam again and again. and wich point he had enough mana and jace took the game..

I really couldn't do much. I thought about putting pithing needle to shut the deed out. they do not have a lots of outs to that I think. but in hindsight, I'm guessing how I sided was wrong. Right?

[CorpT]

I guess first up describe the games and what you think you did wrong. Also tell us what you sided in and sided out. I think sword of light and shadow would be good. Being able to bring back creatures is important in this match up. Also hitting their manabase with life from the loam choke and gy hate is key to shutting off their own life from the loam. The last thing is you usually need one fatty on the board so that their deed does not do as much harm to you.

I think you are seriously overrating SoLaS. SoLaS requires a creature to make it through a turn, attack and connect to a player in order to get one creature back (the life gain is irrelevant). The Pro Black is good, but catching them without removal is pretty unlikely. Especially because Jace can bounce the creature or Deed can kill it anyway. The way to beat BUG Still type decks are recurring creature generation. In this case, Elspeth is the way to do it. Everything else just dies to Deed. Needle for Deed will help as well.

[Koby]

I think you are seriously overrating SoLaS. SoLaS requires a creature to make it through a turn, attack and connect to a player in order to get one creature back (the life gain is irrelevant). The Pro Black is good, but catching them without removal is pretty unlikely. Especially because Jace can bounce the creature or Deed can kill it anyway. The way to beat BUG Still type decks are recurring creature generation. In this case, Elspeth is the way to do it. Everything else just dies to Deed. Needle for Deed will help as well.

Hate to break it to you, but every equipment requires that condition. Against Deed, you're rather just get Thrun anyway, which answers all 3 - removal, Jace, and Deed.

[CorpT]

Hate to break it to you, but every equipment requires that condition. Against Deed, you're rather just get Thrun anyway, which answers all 3 - removal, Jace, and Deed.

That was kind of my point. Elspeth dodges removal, jace (mostly) and Deed. So does Thrun. Equipment isn't good against them. Timmy said that SoLaS is good against them. I disagreed. Elspeth has the advantage of giving flying to get around recycled Mishras, Thrun has the advantage of being good with Teeg.

[Tao]

You sided bad. Side out Maze of Ith as the first thing you do! Also side out your 4 Swords. It is annoying when they start recurring Mishras but usually you would lose those games anyway if their board is so far advanced that they can afford to sacrifce Land drops for life points. Don't side out Stoneforge and the Sword, they are both better than Removal against UGB. But you need one Equipment that does something more relevant against control. Either SoLaS or SoFaI.

Don't side in E Tutor. It creates card disadvantage if they counter Choke (and they usually will unless they can Deed anyway).

I think Elspeth is a much superior choice in the SB against control. IBA had the very good idea of siding in Dauntless Escort against Deed. I currently try the Parallax Wave so Elspeth is in my side. I side in 2 Elspeth, 1 Selkie, 1 Escort and on the play I side in the 4 Thorns. A turn 2 Thorn can ruin their game. It slows them down and they can hardly Deed+blow up Deed or Deed + counterbackup or Jace + anything in the same turn if it resolves so you can Qasali the Deed. This is how my side looks atm.

SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [ARC] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [NPH] Mental Misstep (3 Main Deck)
SB: 1 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ARB] Dauntless Escort
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

[schniggaz]

Thumbs up for Tao. Everything he said in his post is excellent. Just take his advice and the matchup isn't that difficult. In my opinion the only equipment I would side out against UGB Landstill is Umezawa's Jitte.

@Tao: Do you go to Iserlohn in 3 weeks (german nationals)?
I would like to talk about the deck and the different directions it can go (Parallax Wave or not; Misstep or Mother.. and so on)

[Fatal]

BUGStill it thought MU - Life from Loam and dryad arbor with reasonable play make the job - but not always - it's not favorable MU - depends on your hand and draws.

Actually I'm focus on Bant Aggro MU which is similar to our deckbase but adding Jace and Cliques.

After all I found that Cliques aren't problem Scryb Ranger made the job, but CQ after Qliques changes so we need an other weapon to fight against Jace and opposite KotR, so after few weeks of research i found that Beast Within is idea solution for that. It's instant speed so still can make CA on table, it kills Jaces and opposite KotR's. It has drawback, specially with exalted but 3/3 dude doesn't win the game as Jace or KotR's. Feel free to comment this solution.

[TossUsToLions]

I don't think that KotR is a problem, but Jace sometimes is. Against opposing Knights, we can always tutor up a Terravore to win the battle, or after boarding side in a Loaming Shaman (shuffling 7 or more lands from their gy to their decks is usually gg). Even a singleton Bojuka Bog in the board is good enough in the Knight mirrors. I also have extra spot removal (Paths) in the board.

Against Jace, Mom is probably our best bet. SoBM works too, but the abilities are obviously suboptimal.

Let us know how Beast Within works out for you. I think it is better than ORing and Pithing Needle (because Bant decks usually run a few Pridemages), but i'm not sure. I also don't know what other matchups we would rather have Beast Within than something else, like Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.

[timmycolossus]

I think you are seriously overrating SoLaS. SoLaS requires a creature to make it through a turn, attack and connect to a player in order to get one creature back (the life gain is irrelevant). The Pro Black is good, but catching them without removal is pretty unlikely. Especially because Jace can bounce the creature or Deed can kill it anyway. The way to beat BUG Still type decks are recurring creature generation. In this case, Elspeth is the way to do it. Everything else just dies to Deed. Needle for Deed will help as well.

You are correct in that elspeth is really good here along with the other suggestions. I am just pointing out that sword of light and shadow can be good here. Sword of feast and famine can also be good here its just I would prefer to recur a pridemage or scyrb ranger than having them discard a card. Life gain is irrelevant the problack and recur is revelant I beleive. Imo best scenario would be scyrb ranger with with SOFF or SOLS. But I would play elspeth to thwart bug landstill.

[timmycolossus]

@Fatal: I know it depends on the meta but I am in love with sword of light and shadow. I tested it like you said and preferred batterskull when facing merfolk or goblins. Thank you for your advice.

[Fatal]

Vs tribals Jitte is always best deal, specially with scryb ranger. SoLS works on most decks vs control/aggro etc its useful almost always, maybe except combo decks but here none equip isn't good.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Just wondering how is Aven Mindcensor working for you guys.., i don't run him at the moment what i do run in its spot are Mirran Crusaders.

I've tried aven mindcensor several times and so so results.., its very good if you can land him 2nd turn and slowing down your opponents fetch and stoping opposing decks that run STF or GsZ, besides those factors his just a 2/1 flyer.

I know STF and fetch lands are very common to the current meta gsz is present but not as constant between the 2, having that said i feel that in order to maximize Mindcensors ability you have to run 4 offs bec he does his damage early on and slowly looses its value latter on, thats why i decided to pick mirran saders over him as its not a bad top deck, has built-in protection and can stop opposing kotr or tarmo and becomes a bomb once he is equipped with any equipment.

For those who had tested aven mindcensor extensively a feedback would be greatly appreciated. earning 3 slots on the deck i feel its really worth using, but i don't know why i feel its value is not as impressive as i perceive it to be for a 3 offs.

thanks

[deviant]

Aven shines in the mu's where the rest of the deck isnt so hot. Storm, SFM decks,NO, even hive mind.
Crusader is only worth his slots when the protections he haves are exceptionally relevant, like back when bug decks were all over the place.

Mindsensor give you bigger game where you are lacking it. Crusader makes the good mu's better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That seems like a shaky way to analyze value though. You don't have to win every matchup. If Mirran Crusader gives you a greater increase in win percentage by locking up good matchups than AM does by helping out a bit in terrible matchups, then the former is probably the correct choice.

The same would be true of running any other card in place of both of them obviously.

[_erbs_]

Hello
Looks like you guys really have alot of trust in aven or had a better luck than i am with it. Does aven comes out for you the turn you need it like 2nd turn or 3rd turn to be able to stop the things it should stop, because on all my testing with it 80% of the time its a 2/1 flying bear and can get easily blown up with mor in play nor can't be used as a significant clock as 2 damage per turn seems weak as compared to clique or flickerwisp, etc.

What i like about aven in all my testing if it comes out early expect your opponent to blast it away giving your other threats to run free.. thats the best part about it. well against combo its a different story as they dont run removals.

Against mirror im guessing its going to be a bomb if you cast it early as gw mav doesnt run too many removals surely your going to be on the upper hand in that mirror match up.

[TossUsToLions]

This thread has a lot of non-Maverick players' stance on Aven to get other points of view on the card: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21531-SCD-Aven-Mindcensor

I think that he is good as a surprise factor, but if your opponent know you are running it, it loses a lot of value. It also depends on your meta. GW Maverick is nonexistent in my area (possibly in my country? Haven't seen it at any SCG events.) and storm combo is very rare. Like IBA said about Crusader, if you think it will make your deck more consistent than Aven would, then run Crusader, or whatever else works for you. IMO, this deck is all about consistency, and this is the reason why I am beginning to test a list without Aven

[Koby]

I would like to start up a discussion regarding individual card choices.

Batterskull
Does GW/u Maverick need Batterskull to operate in most metagames?
Would Sword of Fire/Ice be better against Goblins/Merfolk?
Which matchups would it really shine?
Which matchups would the flexibility of other equipment (you know, actually equipping your creatures) be more relevant?
How many times has the life gain mattered?

I would like to state that I have once beaten ANT by getting an early Batterskull and riding the life gain to victory. I think I would have won anyway, since I got to turn 3 and survived.

Mental Misstep
Does this replace Mother of Runes strictly?
Does anyone advocate running 4 maindeck? What about 3 maindeck, 1 sideboard?
How many times do you draw this as the first card after starting the game on the draw?
In which metagames is this card more important than Mother of Runes?

It feels like both these points could use more fleshing out for the Primer/opening post.

[_erbs_]

This thread has a lot of non-Maverick players' stance on Aven to get other points of view on the card: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21531-SCD-Aven-Mindcensor

I think that he is good as a surprise factor, but if your opponent know you are running it, it loses a lot of value. It also depends on your meta. GW Maverick is nonexistent in my area (possibly in my country? Haven't seen it at any SCG events.) and storm combo is very rare. Like IBA said about Crusader, if you think it will make your deck more consistent than Aven would, then run Crusader, or whatever else works for you. IMO, this deck is all about consistency, and this is the reason why I am beginning to test a list without Aven

Hello,
How's your testing without aven and what would did you replaced it with.

@rukcus

Batterskull
Does GW/u Maverick need Batterskull to operate in most metagames?
Would Sword of Fire/Ice be better against Goblins/Merfolk?
Which matchups would it really shine?
Which matchups would the flexibility of other equipment (you know, actually equipping your creatures) be more relevant?
How many times has the life gain mattered?

I would like to state that I have once beaten ANT by getting an early Batterskull and riding the life gain to victory. I think I would have won anyway, since I got to turn 3 and survived.

Hello,
At start i had doubt about batterskull since i really liked solas, but as my testing went on i never looked back at solas. For me the top equips are 1> jitte 2> sofi 3> batterskull/solas 4> sofam/sobam

I don't like running 4 equips in my build as i feel its too many i'll rather have a body. Now for the breakdown between the batter vs any other equips for me the 3rd equip is a meta call but in a general meta i'd still go for batterskull bec, late game its not a dead card as compared to any other equipment. an early batterskull is very very good against aggro, like i've said the 3rd equip is a meta call if your area is filled with aggro like mine batterskull is the right choice for me atleast, if your area has tons of control i'd go for sobam or sofam. solas provides +3 life , protection and recursion which is very good aswell but for me the 4/4 vigilance lifelink is much more significant bec its a body once you land him as compared to any equip which needs a body before you could use it. As for the drawback of having to large of a casting cost compared to any other equips i'll still take it. Again for me the last or 3rd equip is a meta call.



Mental Misstep
Does this replace Mother of Runes strictly?
Does anyone advocate running 4 maindeck? What about 3 maindeck, 1 sideboard?
How many times do you draw this as the first card after starting the game on the draw?
In which metagames is this card more important than Mother of Runes?

It feels like both these points could use more fleshing out for the Primer/opening post.

For me it doesn't replace mother it actually helps mother bec mother can save another creature and you have protection for your mother in case it gets hit by a 1cc removal. I've tested MM but i feel its more of a SB card rather than a main in my gw shell atleast.

Normally i board in mm against decks that packs tons of removals or decks that has very few removals like maverick and zoo. in terms of general use they almost have the same function saving an important creature in play the only advantage of MM is that its useful sometimes against combo or control preventing them for casting cantrips. As for the number of copies for mm, i started running 4 but slowly i felt that 3 is the magic number for mm.

[_erbs_]

Hello
To fellow GW aggro / mav players, i've recently tested out a different build and i would like to hear your feedbacks or comments on it. Basically the big difference in the build is that i removed GSZ which im not sure if its a mistake or not. I have no problems with GSZ and i must say its a good card but why did i decide to take it out is simply bec of grand abolisher (http://magiccards.info/query?q=grand+abolisher&v=card&s=cname) At start i played with 3 copies of him but felt his too defensive like mother of runes that why im now playing with 2. What i like about him is that it forces your opponent to tapped out and slows them down to some extent paired with mor your creatures can last longer in the field and the scenario of "equip my creature, opponent responds with bolt it" will no longer happen during your turn and making your creatures more dangerous than before.

Now for my build.
Lands [21]
4 wasteland
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
1 misty rainforest
1 flooded strand
1 gae's cradle
1 karakas
2 forest
3 plains

Creatures [26]
3 mother of runes
3 noble hierarch
1 birds of paradise
4 qasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf
2 scryb ranger
2 grand abolisher
3 stoneforge mystic
3 knight of the reliquary
3 mirran crusader

Spells [13]
2 elspeth, knight of errant
4 swords to plowshares
1 jitte
1 sofi
1 batterskull
2 sylvan library
2 oblivion ring

Sideboard [15]
3 cataclysm
3 mental misstep
1 jotun grunt
1 bojuka bog
3 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
2 kitchen finks
1 sword of body and mind


thats my current build, before the changes the main deck was -1mirran -1pridemage -2abolisher // +3gsz +1eternal witness, do you think i made the right choice in dropping gsz for abolisher ?

[Koby]

What do you stand to gain from Grand Abolisher?
Losing GSZ on the other hand, reduces the deck's consistency, and you miss out on a great tutor. Once you cut GSZ, it's better to just cut green altogether and play mono white Taxes.

[_erbs_]

What do you stand to gain from Grand Abolisher?
Losing GSZ on the other hand, reduces the deck's consistency, and you miss out on a great tutor. Once you cut GSZ, it's better to just cut green altogether and play mono white Taxes.

What i like about him is that it forces your opponent to tapped out and slows them down to some extent paired with mor your creatures can last longer in the field and the scenario of "equip my creature, opponent responds with bolt it" will no longer happen during your turn and making your creatures more dangerous than before. It also makes your SB resolves when he is in play.

[Tao]

Seriously, I dont know why i even bother anymore telling everyone to play Thorn of Amethyst.

But WTF are Ethersworn Canonists doing in your Sideboard? They are horrible atm. They are bad against Reanimator, Hive Mind and Painterstone. And they are still worse than Thorn against Tendrils decks and Solidarity. The only reason to run them would be if Elves were big in your Meta for some reason.

[_erbs_]

Seriously, I dont know why i even bother anymore telling everyone to play Thorn of Amethyst.

But WTF are Ethersworn Canonists doing in your Sideboard? They are horrible atm. They are bad against Reanimator, Hive Mind and Painterstone. And they are still worse than Thorn against Tendrils decks and Solidarity. The only reason to run them would be if Elves were big in your Meta for some reason.

Thanks for pointing that out, i'll cut the canonist in my sideboard and probably replace them with thorn of amethyst

[Fatal]

Cutting GSZ is a step back in my eyes. It brings consistency which is power of this deck, you can run, a lot of single creatures toolbox and fetch them in important moments. I think it's bad direction. Abolisher is nice but it more fits to D&T than Maverick.

[Mr.Dieth]

I agree, The fact you run 4 zenith's is what makes the deck strong. You can fetch the right answer to any given situation. That's what makes this deck viable.

Playing less then 4 is a horrible mistake.

[_erbs_]

Cutting GSZ is a step back in my eyes. It brings consistency which is power of this deck, you can run, a lot of single creatures toolbox and fetch them in important moments. I think it's bad direction. Abolisher is nice but it more fits to D&T than Maverick.

Yes i know which i discussed with my teammates that without GSZ i'll be loosing the toolbox , if you at my list which i feel is consistent and fits our meta, the biggest card i'll be loosing is eternal witness, look at my original creature configuration.


Creatures [23]
3 mother of runes
3 noble hierarch
1 birds of paradise
3 qasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf
2 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
3 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader
1 eternal witness

and

3 GsZ

i know gsz is really good i had no problems with it, but with abolisher your creatures are more dangerous than ever and you can safely equip and attack without the fear of tempo loss which is very common in our deck against zoo or decks which packs tons of removal, assuming there is no mother in play.

i've gone over and over my creature base list before i decided to cut gsz and add the key creatures which i felt is really need in our meta. hands down the utility of eternal witness will be very much missed as it has won me lots of games crippling my opponents lands or removing his creatures again and again. same goes for pridemage which is the most common target i feel for my gsz.

at first it really felt like its a wrong move but i hope you gw players might give abolisher a shot before shooting it down.

@Mr.Dieth
In my original list i run 3 gsz only i felt 4 was too much and is a dead card early on as you need to develop mana 1st and again "what are the key creatures" that gsz will fetch , i bet most of you guys gsz for pridemage, e.wtiness/kotr or scryb ranger

[Mr.Dieth]

Really really depends against what I play, but there are a lot of times I fetch for my arbor. And terravore/knight are also big targets.

I do agree on testing the abolisher, and I will give him a spin. But I strongly disagree cutting the zenith for him.

Zenith also has a added advantage ( somewhat less noticable ) that late game You draw more threats/creature's. Because you shuffle it back. So you get better topdecks! Something I really like about this deck. It topdecks well ( Lol.. ).

[TossUsToLions]

Hello,
How's your testing without aven and what would did you replaced it with.


I took out an AM for a Scavenging Ooze a few weeks ago, and it has been amazing. Then, a few days ago I replaced the remaining two AM's with a mainboard Teeg and a Mirran Crusader. I only tested againt NO Rug so far with them (where AM should shine), but my win percentage has actually gone up. Teeg is obviously an awesome GSZ target, and the Crusader is just so good with equipment that I want to play another, and pro-goyf is pretty sick, too.

On replacing GSZ, I can not support this at all. Like I've been saying for some time, the consistency of this deck is what makes it so good. GSZ is a huge reason as to why this deck is so consistent. It rounds out our mana curve perfectly, allowing us to play a business spell on virtually every turn.

_erbs_, you say that GSZ is a dead card early on when you need to develop mana. This is far from the truth. T1, GSZ gets you dryad arbor, allowing you to hit a 3-drop turn 2. On T2 you can GSZ for a Hierarch. GSZ helps to ramp in the early game, search for utility in the mid game, and search for finishers in the late game. It really does make the deck so much more consistent at all parts of the game.

[Philipp2293]

So, Edric, Spymaster of Trest really seems apealing to me. I think for one slot, you get quite a potent draw engine, as at least in my list, I'm running 5 creatures with evasion (not counting Swords protection or Mother activations). Also blue seems supportable, at least such a light splash.

Also, I replaced SoFaI with SoLaS, cause, as already mentioned in this thread, SoLaS also represents a nice secondary engine if you're running like 50% creatures.

The SB is geared towards my meta, which is rather dredge/affinity heavy, and also drifting towards more aggro lately.

Enjoy + Discuss.

// Lands
3 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [SHM] Forest (4)
1 [PT] Plains (1)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [COM] Edric, Spymaster of Trest

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ARB] Dauntless Escort
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator

[mooN_MTG]

Hi, thanks for the great primer, i have some questions about my deck, please give me a little help:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

(21 Lands)


4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus

(23 Creatures)

4 Gren Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

(16 Other spells)

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun ad Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Angel's Grace
2 Chocke
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor

(15 Sideboard cards)

1º - Gaea's Cradle is really necessary??? i play it because a friend recommend
2º - 3 Misty Rainforest or 3 Horizon Canopy???
3º - I want to play Mental Misstep, what cards I have to put out???
4º - This deck have future in Legacy???

[Philipp2293]

1.) Sure, important for using equipment faster and double equipping twice a turn, also allows to vomit your hand onto the board.

2.) I'd prefer the canopies, helps against flooding in the midgame.

3.) The people who play it usually cut Mother of Runes for it afaik.

4.) Sure :) (well only time will tell, but you can run lots of MD configurations thanks to the flexibility GSZ offers, so you can adapt to a lot of metashifts and trends)

[mooN_MTG]

Thanks Philipp2293, if you have any sugestion, commentary about Main Deck, please tell me! :)

[Tao]

What do you think about this guy?

Angus Mackenzie
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric 2/2, WUG
{G}{W}{U}, {T}: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. Activate this ability only before the combat damage step.

It can be fetched with Zenith, should be gg vs. Folk and Dredge G1 and is a solution to Progenitus. It also does a lot in the Zenith/Mystic mirror, especially when protected with Mother of Runes.

[_erbs_]

What do you think about this guy?

Angus Mackenzie
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric 2/2, WUG
{G}{W}{U}, {T}: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. Activate this ability only before the combat damage step.

It can be fetched with Zenith, should be gg vs. Folk and Dredge G1 and is a solution to Progenitus. It also does a lot in the Zenith/Mystic mirror, especially when protected with Mother of Runes.

Its a good tech card but i feel the activation cost is too costly and the color requirements is very heavy without the proper mana or mana dork in play its a dead card. Maybe it would be perfect for a NO progen bant deck rather in the mav shell.

[BrazenSix]

Hey all,

Lurker here. Just registered to get some advice on tuning this deck to tackle a mostly NA meta flooded with U/W Stoneblade decks. I originally started with a D&T Vial list and enjoyed it, evolving it into a G/W Taxes list and then got turned on to Maverick after some suggestions from players and seeing the results this deck has been having overseas.

I'm looking for some help on tuning the deck against the major players, U/W variants, Hive Mind, Fish, Dredge and NO Rug that I see frequently.

I don't have my list/cards in front of me atm, but here's the basis of what I'm working with. I'm undecided on the sideboard at the moment, so I've just thrown some cards I'm thinking on including in there. I'm leaning towards the Enlightened Tutor package, but I'm hesitant due to Mental Misstep. Opinions?

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch / Birds of Paradise?
3 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of War and Peace

SIDEBOARD
Choke
Thorn of Amethyst
Tormod's Crypt / Wheel of Sun and Moon
Path to Exile
Krosan Grip
Enlightened Tutor
Angel's Grace
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Feast and Famine
Manriki Gusari

I'm fairly certain I need to bump the Knights to 4. I haven't been having much luck with Mindcensors, but I've read the other forum topic and understand their utility. I'm wondering if a split of Hierarch and Birds might be a good plan, just to assist in tackling Hive Mind. Angel's Grace seems like an auto include for the board as well. SoLS has been great in getting back anything countered by blue and Eternal Witness has been a star when she hits that I'm wondering if running 2 might be a good idea? Also, thinking on running 3 Pridemages, but if I bump Witness to 2of, then it'd just be easier to get it back from the yard for a recast.

Anyways, any help or thoughts would be great. No one plays G/W here and I'm not really sure why. The amount of counter magic is certainly a deterrent, but I think we can generally force through it to respond to what's on the board before it's to late.

[Koby]

@ BrazenSix -
I would suggest to add blue for Daze, Mental Misstep, Brainstorm, and Vendilion Clique. As apocryphal as that sounds in this thread, Bant has a much better matchup against those matchups you are concerned about than strictly GW alone. You still get to run most of the same cards.

Moreover, those matchup you listed don't require an equipment package to beat, so that can be downgraded to taking up only 4 slots (2 SFM, Jitte, Jitte/Batterskull) giving you more room for cards that will perform better against control and combo. In your list, I would run 1 more Pridemage too.

[Koby]

What do you think about this guy?

Angus Mackenzie
Legendary Creature - Human Cleric 2/2, WUG
{G}{W}{U}, {T}: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn. Activate this ability only before the combat damage step.

It can be fetched with Zenith, should be gg vs. Folk and Dredge G1 and is a solution to Progenitus. It also does a lot in the Zenith/Mystic mirror, especially when protected with Mother of Runes.

Dawnstrider is another good choice, and less demanding in mana cost (altho card loss can be an issue too).

[mooN_MTG]

@ BrazenSix -
I would suggest to add blue for Daze, Mental Misstep, Brainstorm, and Vendilion Clique. As apocryphal as that sounds in this thread, Bant has a much better matchup against those matchups you are concerned about than strictly GW alone. You still get to run most of the same cards.

Moreover, those matchup you listed don't require an equipment package to beat, so that can be downgraded to taking up only 4 slots (2 SFM, Jitte, Jitte/Batterskull) giving you more room for cards that will perform better against control and combo. In your list, I would run 1 more Pridemage too.

Looks like the deck win the Grand Prix Providence!

[Koby]

Looks like the deck win the Grand Prix Providence!

Probably a good chance as to why it won. Maverick shines in metagames dominated by aggro and aggro control. It doesn't do so well in metagames filled with Combo and dedicated Control (think Jaces + FoW). Against the latter decks, interacting on the Stack is more important than having control over combat (via equipment). Against Combo, the equipment just slows you down, and against control you have a difficult time maintaining creatures to equip. Against both these matchups, Vendilion Clique provides a huge tempo gain in both having Flash, and the opportunity to mess with your opponent's hand.

Against such metagames that include NO RUG, Hive Mind, and Stoneblade - you're better off playing Bant varieties than Maverick.

[Mr.Dieth]

But honestly .. That isn't maverick anymore.. If you go so deep into blue, then you'r playing Bant.. And if you want to adjust maverick to look more bantish for your meta.. You'r just picking the wrong deck..

[BrazenSix]

Yeah, it was never totally my intention to want to splash heavy into Blue and then you're right... it ceases being Maverick and goes towards the realm of Bant. I was just wondering if there was a way to tweak our toolbox to give it a better outcome against the matchups previously mentioned. I'm wondering if a more vial oriented deck would be better suited in tackling it. I mean, Bant gives you the ability to fight the counter war but you can play around them with the vials. The problem I found this, if that there's about a 95% chance that anything you do end up hard casting is going to get countered (mainly StP). Vial builds with no GSZ just seemed way to inconsistant. :(

[Koby]

Yeah, it was never totally my intention to want to splash heavy into Blue and then you're right... it ceases being Maverick and goes towards the realm of Bant. I was just wondering if there was a way to tweak our toolbox to give it a better outcome against the matchups previously mentioned. I'm wondering if a more vial oriented deck would be better suited in tackling it. I mean, Bant gives you the ability to fight the counter war but you can play around them with the vials. The problem I found this, if that there's about a 95% chance that anything you do end up hard casting is going to get countered (mainly StP). Vial builds with no GSZ just seemed way to inconsistant. :(

I am aware that Bant is not Maverick. I explained that Maverick is not the best choice for the metagame you described you are preparing for. AEther Vial won't help against such a metagame either.

[Tearnov]

So I won my local Legacy tournament yesterday. The field wasn't as big due to people going to Gen Con. It only went to 3 rounds.
My Deck:

//Lands
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Treetop Village
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

//Creatures
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Mother of Runes
2x Eternal Witness
2x Scryb Ranger
1x Terravore
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Rhox War Monk

//Spells
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Krosan Grip
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Bojuka Bog


My results:
2-1 vs Jacestill

2-1 vs Tezzeret Affinity

2-0 vs Food Chain Elves

Went 3-0 in matches and won.
2nd place was a Team America deck, not sure what came in third.

[Philipp2293]

Maindeck looks really good. Were that many equipments the right call though?

On another note, I need some input on the SB:

So far I have settled on:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Which leaves me with 2 open slots. In meta there are currently lots of dredge and affinity decks, with merfolk and goblins also being quite popular. Combo is underplayed, as well a Zoo (strange enough), and there are only some control decks (mostly blade control variants). Any suggestions?

[Tearnov]

Maindeck looks really good. Were that many equipments the right call though?

On another note, I need some input on the SB:

So far I have settled on:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Which leaves me with 2 open slots. In meta there are currently lots of dredge and affinity decks, with merfolk and goblins also being quite popular. Combo is underplayed, as well a Zoo (strange enough), and there are only some control decks (mostly blade control variants). Any suggestions?

Really, I only used the SoLS and Jitte.
SoFI/Batterskull were situational and not the "go to" equipment.
I've been debating removing SoFI but I'm not sure what to replace it with, as it can be a nice card draw against control.

As for your side board, Wheel of Sun and Moon is great vs dredge.
Vexing Shusher wouldn't be bad if your concern is counters.
Nature's Claim could work against affinity, or if you want to, and don't run it already, Tarmogoyf wouldn't be bad vs dredge.
Posting your Maindeck wouldn't be a bad idea

[Philipp2293]

// Lands
4 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [SHM] Forest (4)
1 [PT] Plains (1)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 Terravore

What I currently run. Also, I think I have Dredge and Affinity covered just fine between MD and SB hate.

Shusher is an interesting idea, but not sure how long he would survive. I thought maybe 2 Sylvan Libraries or 2Phyrexian Revokers, thoughts on that?

[Koby]

Sylvan Library is a good choice against control, it gives you something to do with all the extra life gain from your eqiupment, and you're able to hide threats until you absolutely need to cast them (such as against Hymn/Discard and Clique)

You could also consider Choke to punish U/x control and Merfolk alike.

[Philipp2293]

Thanks for your input, I appreciate that.

I recently cut Choke from my SB cause I never was too satisfied with it, and control is retreating ATM in my meta.

For my next tournament, I might test the 2 libraries and report back.

Anybody running Mental Missteps MD or SB wants to share their current experiences?

[TossUsToLions]

Hey everyone, I finally settled on a list that i like after testing for over a month.


3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Arid Mesa
3x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
2x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Eternal Witness
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Terravore
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Scavenging Ooze

2x Sylvan Library
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Mother of Runes is awesome. I don't really understand why people are cutting them for Missteps. There are creatures in the deck that if they stick around, you win the game. Mom helps to do this, and, along with GSZ and Hierarchs, basically ensures some turn 1 action on our side.

Scavenging Ooze is really good, especially at the the 2-drop slot. I've won many games with just an Ooze out, facing 2-3 Goyfs. The life gain is nothing to laugh at, either.

Mirran Crusader has been much better than Mindscensor, even against NO Rug. Protection from Goyf/Germ token is just an awesome ability. Also, doublestrike with equipment is usually gg, no matter what equipment it is. Its protection is a little redundant with SoFF, but whatever.

SoFF is aactually performing very well. The colors are very good (goyfs/germ tokens/knights/etc.) and the abilities are much better than I initially thought. The untapping the lands allows us much more freedom with equipping and such, and playing two bombs on a turn is awesome. I've only also tried SoBM, and SoFF is muc better. Haven't gotten around to trying SoFI/SoLS yet because I love SoFF too much right now.

Sylvan Library is phenomenal, period. The extra draw/card selection is amazing, and helps us dig to find the removal or Choke or KGrip that we need. With a Cradle out, it allows us to draw multiple bombs and cast them both on one turn.

Terravore is good in the Knight mirrors, but I'm not sure if I'm sold on him yet. I side him out a lot.

[Ajsmirnov]

Agreed on Mother of runes and Scavenging Ooze. Fantastic ones. But in my current list I managed to play both, Mother and Mental Misstep. Its more blue splashed then a regular lists. Brainstorms help me a lot in late games, and do all other things Brainstorms usually do :smile:
And also I love Sower of Temptation in SB.

4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tower of the Magistrate
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
3 Brainstorms
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawas Jitte

Tower of the Magistrate - used to be Gaea's Cradle, I test Tower.
Scavenging Ooze - BTW I cut Terravore to play this.
Sword of Light and Shadow - should be Butterskull, but I don't have it. Before I used it to return Qasali, now with Predators there is no need.

My greatest problems are with decks that can return their Wastelands(Loam, Crucible). I have 0 basic lands. But there aren't many of those decks now.

[Fatal]

@Ajsmirnov

Not running Scryb Ranger is mistake in my eyes, it helps fight vs opposite wastelands, great working with Mom/KotR/hierarch/bop and gives equipped dudes pseudo-vigilance. I would find place in one trygon predator. Also why only 2 GSZ its bomb.

Ok, I have for all of you nice tech:

Card vs controls using Ancestral Visions - Riftsweeper - great card under GSZ with CMC 2. It stops suspended cards.

[Ajsmirnov]

Yes, we used this in Time Spiral block constructed )

[_erbs_]

Hey everyone, I finally settled on a list that i like after testing for over a month.


3x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Arid Mesa
3x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
2x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Eternal Witness
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Terravore
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Scavenging Ooze

2x Sylvan Library
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Mother of Runes is awesome. I don't really understand why people are cutting them for Missteps. There are creatures in the deck that if they stick around, you win the game. Mom helps to do this, and, along with GSZ and Hierarchs, basically ensures some turn 1 action on our side.

Scavenging Ooze is really good, especially at the the 2-drop slot. I've won many games with just an Ooze out, facing 2-3 Goyfs. The life gain is nothing to laugh at, either.

Mirran Crusader has been much better than Mindscensor, even against NO Rug. Protection from Goyf/Germ token is just an awesome ability. Also, doublestrike with equipment is usually gg, no matter what equipment it is. Its protection is a little redundant with SoFF, but whatever.

SoFF is aactually performing very well. The colors are very good (goyfs/germ tokens/knights/etc.) and the abilities are much better than I initially thought. The untapping the lands allows us much more freedom with equipping and such, and playing two bombs on a turn is awesome. I've only also tried SoBM, and SoFF is muc better. Haven't gotten around to trying SoFI/SoLS yet because I love SoFF too much right now.

Sylvan Library is phenomenal, period. The extra draw/card selection is amazing, and helps us dig to find the removal or Choke or KGrip that we need. With a Cradle out, it allows us to draw multiple bombs and cast them both on one turn.

Terravore is good in the Knight mirrors, but I'm not sure if I'm sold on him yet. I side him out a lot.

Hello,
Your deck is almost identical to my original build. For reference here is it.

Lands [21]
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 gaes cradle
2 plains
2 forest
4 wasteland
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
1 misty rainforest
1 flooded strand

Creatures [23]
3 noble hiearch
1 birds of paradise
3 mother of runes
2 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
3 qasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf
3 mirran cursader
3 knight of the reliquary

Spells [16]
2 elspeth, knight errant
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
2 sylvan library
3 gsz
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sofi

Was wondering don't you feel abit short on removals ? I used to have e.witness but later on i felt mirran provided a bigger use over witness. I wanted to remove the oblivion ring in my main but i don't know what to fit in those slots. As for thrun, i prefer elspeth over thurn, i know it can be gsz'd and is a bad dude when he is carrying jitte, but i felt elspeth is much useful.

Isn't 4 mother of runes too much ? What's your SB list by the way ?

[TossUsToLions]

Was wondering don't you feel abit short on removals ? I used to have e.witness but later on i felt mirran provided a bigger use over witness. I wanted to remove the oblivion ring in my main but i don't know what to fit in those slots. As for thrun, i prefer elspeth over thurn, i know it can be gsz'd and is a bad dude when he is carrying jitte, but i felt elspeth is much useful.

Isn't 4 mother of runes too much ? What's your SB list by the way ?

I don't feel short on removal because I have Paths in the board and Ooze to deal with Goyfs. There aren't really too many creatures that I am afraid of, except for Proggy (which is why I am thinking of replacing the Terravore with a Mr. Teeg). Witness is a necessity in the deck, I think. I never side her out. She is just too good. A tutorable creature that recurs equipment or removal is just too good to pass up. Elspeth is good, but Thrun literally wins games on his own. If you naturally draw it against Stoneblade, you pretty much win the game. it is also good against other decks, like RUG and Zoo.

4 Moms does not feel like too much at all. I don't think I've lost a game yet when I've gotten multiple out onto the battlefield. Also, you want to see her every single game, except against combo where you can side her out.

Right now my SB looks like:
1x Teeg (Will become Elsepth if I put Teeg in the board)
1x Loaming Shaman (Good in Knight mirrors and gy dependent decks)
2x Krosan Grip (Batterskull what? I kinda want another one)
3x Choke (blowout against control decks)
3x Dueling Grounds (Amazing against Folk, Gobbos, Affinity, etc.)
2x Path to Exile (I bring this in against almost everything)
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ravenous Trap (I like varying my grave hate)

I would love to fit in two more Thruns in the board as that card is just a blowout against Stoneblade

@Fatal, Riftsweeper seems really cool against Visions, but may be a bit narrow. Have you tested it yet? Let us know the results if you have.

@ruckus, Dawnstrider actually seems like a reasonable card to play in the board as a one-of. Along with Teeg, it gives us some flexibility in fighting Proggy. And testing with it at all?

[Koby]

@ruckus, Dawnstrider actually seems like a reasonable card to play in the board as a one-of. Along with Teeg, it gives us some flexibility in fighting Proggy. And testing with it at all?

It's amazing against Merfolk and Dredge; unfortunately my metagame is infested with combo decks so I haven't had a need to play it just yet. It's a tier 3 SB card for me at this point. Keep in mind that it may be a better replacement for Dueling Ground because of the synergy with GSZ.

[Philipp2293]

Wow, Dawnstrider is a nice suggestions, I will try that for sure :)

[Ajsmirnov]

@Fatal.
thx you. I tested Scryb Ranger more and found place for it. It is really a great card.

[_erbs_]

I don't feel short on removal because I have Paths in the board and Ooze to deal with Goyfs. There aren't really too many creatures that I am afraid of, except for Proggy (which is why I am thinking of replacing the Terravore with a Mr. Teeg). Witness is a necessity in the deck, I think. I never side her out. She is just too good. A tutorable creature that recurs equipment or removal is just too good to pass up. Elspeth is good, but Thrun literally wins games on his own. If you naturally draw it against Stoneblade, you pretty much win the game. it is also good against other decks, like RUG and Zoo.

4 Moms does not feel like too much at all. I don't think I've lost a game yet when I've gotten multiple out onto the battlefield. Also, you want to see her every single game, except against combo where you can side her out.

Right now my SB looks like:
1x Teeg (Will become Elsepth if I put Teeg in the board)
1x Loaming Shaman (Good in Knight mirrors and gy dependent decks)
2x Krosan Grip (Batterskull what? I kinda want another one)
3x Choke (blowout against control decks)
3x Dueling Grounds (Amazing against Folk, Gobbos, Affinity, etc.)
2x Path to Exile (I bring this in against almost everything)
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ravenous Trap (I like varying my grave hate)

I would love to fit in two more Thruns in the board as that card is just a blowout against Stoneblade

Just wondering.., based on your SB list, it seems your meta doesn't have combo or you just accept the fact that when your up against combo its good game for you. You also have 5 sb vs creature based decks.., i thought you don't have problems with them..

[TossUsToLions]

Just wondering.., based on your SB list, it seems your meta doesn't have combo or you just accept the fact that when your up against combo its good game for you. You also have 5 sb vs creature based decks.., i thought you don't have problems with them..

This is the common sideboard debate. Accept losses and make sure that your good matchups are even better, or try and cover everything.

You're right, there is little combo in my meta, except for dredge, where I bring in 7 cards. I also have the singleton Ooze main. The rest of the decks that I play against are mostly NO Rug, Merfolk, Zoo, Stoneblade, and Bant.

Aggro is a good matchup, but my SB makes it even better. Some decks, such as Affinity, Gobbos, and Zoo can actually be tough in reality. In theory they seem great, but things don't always work out like they should. For example, Gobbos seems like an easy matchup because you can just Stoneforge for a Jitte, right? Well what if you don't have a SFM in your starting hand? What if they have first turn Lackey, and an Incinerator for your first turn drop? GG? With SB, I now have more answers to their first turn play (PtE) and a card that basically auto-wins me the game (Dueling Ground).

[_erbs_]

This is the common sideboard debate. Accept losses and make sure that your good matchups are even better, or try and cover everything.

You're right, there is little combo in my meta, except for dredge, where I bring in 7 cards. I also have the singleton Ooze main. The rest of the decks that I play against are mostly NO Rug, Merfolk, Zoo, Stoneblade, and Bant.

Aggro is a good matchup, but my SB makes it even better. Some decks, such as Affinity, Gobbos, and Zoo can actually be tough in reality. In theory they seem great, but things don't always work out like they should. For example, Gobbos seems like an easy matchup because you can just Stoneforge for a Jitte, right? Well what if you don't have a SFM in your starting hand? What if they have first turn Lackey, and an Incinerator for your first turn drop? GG? With SB, I now have more answers to their first turn play (PtE) and a card that basically auto-wins me the game (Dueling Ground).

Ic.. nice meta hahaha, lucky you, as for me im currently running this SB
3 chalice of the void
2 thorn of amethyst
2 gaddock teeg
1 path to exile
2 choke
2 jotun grunt
1 bojuka bog
2 xx still don't know yet.

currently im thinking of the following for the last 2 slots:
1 stoneforge - vs mirror or any aggro decks
1 pte / wingshards
1 choke / tsunami / armageddon - vs control decks

Im still not sure of the grunt slot but why i decide to pick grunt is bec, he is good vs gy decks and zoo, while relic or tormods is only good for gy decks. I know ghostly prison or dueling grounds would be good aswell for both zoo and a GY specific deck like ichorid.. but i wanted a threat and not a preventive solution to the problem.

[Fatal]

I'm little sceptically about how good Path to Exile is in this deck, specially in world of Missteps. We play wastelands, this plan isn't working together. I suggest to use Wing Shards with Missteps. Wing Shards can take out protected creatures and works good with Flash creatures most of the time its game breaking, it dodge missteps which is common in almost all decks.

Let me show little analysis which creature need to be took off in first turn:

- Noble Hierarch/BoP/any other mana dude - ramp is always bad on opponent side
- Goblin Lackey - if not StP its really nasty
- Confidant from Mox Diamond - CA in opponent
- Mother of Runes
- Servant Painter from Sol Land

And here list ended in first turn.

Other dudes, are in later turns

Ok lets see how PtE works on them:

- Mana Dudes - Pure Card Disadvantage on our side - not worth
- Goblin Lackey - Giving mana to Goblins is almost as bad as free Gob in play
- Dark Confidant - here it works
- MoR - works also, but impact isn't great its almost as free basic land in play
- Servant Painter - here it works

So after first look it's mostly not working. Note also that its 1 cmc which mean - can be easily missteped.

When PtE is worth ? In late game vs Big dudes as opposite KotRs/Stalker/Goyf. But in latet game we have mostly a lot of mana and wing shards can be useful the same with option as 2/3 for 1.

It also dodge nasty protection for example Progenitus which can be problematic if cheated enough fast or with enough support.

And here is analysis after testing Beast Within:

Works well vs:
- Deedstills
- Mostly Jaces
- KotRs
- Enchantress
- Painter Servant

mostly everything which doesn't use too much creatures, 3/3 dude isn't problematic. But it's situational card, being on instant can be used on many ways:
- In response to Deed Blow
- At End of turn as 3/3 dude
- In combat as fog or blocker
- As catch all answer vs enchantress
- As Stone Rain when opponent is screwed
- As 3/3 hasty creature when opponent is on low life
- In resp to Standstill

But probably more testing is needed here to improve this card - its situational.

Also I loved EE as one of in E.Tutor, I found that our table is mostly cost diversity It can be used as 2 for 1 Surgical Deed :], and also nice vs EtW/Zombie/Thopter cleaner. It also can dodge Missteps, and other cost restrictions.

[_erbs_]

@fatal
wing shards is really great but sometimes you need targeted removals, all the points you've pointed out are correct but the chances of you having to draw an early pte is very low as to use it early on, thats why most of the pte users i think only uses 1-2 on the SB.

[Fatal]

@_erbs_

Please give me examples are they other then in simple analysis wrote upper ?

I should also add Dredge deck where PtE are very good.

Btw: Good news for us, again we are King of the Hill in DtB in TCDecks meta analysis.

[_erbs_]

@_erbs_
Please give me examples are they other then in simple analysis wrote upper ?
I should also add Dredge deck where PtE are very good.
Btw: Good news for us, again we are King of the Hill in DtB in TCDecks meta analysis.

Normally a WG packs 4 stp and 1-2-3 pte on the SB, now the chances of drawing pte over stp in any parts of the game is slightly lower, even if you get a pte early you will still kill key targets with it. Like grim lavamancer which will seldom attack left unkilled can easily kill all your creatures. An active knight of the reliquary can wreck your manabase or filter your opponents library. Same goes for bob, which will not attack unless you have no blockers. Those scenarios for me are much important over a sure kill via wing shards, which costs double white and 1 generic mana.

[Fatal]

You are right about drawback in cost in Wing Shards.

Bob is also good example mention before, but GW have really good mana base, most of time playing vs Wastelands you can mostly always fetch basics, so this example doesn't convince me.
Lavamancer can be pain here also you have right, but think a little about PtE drawback which can be really game changing. For example vs NO RUG, Pathing first turn Lavamancer gives +1 turn to cast NO which can be trouble to handle. In this MU I would always want Wing Shards instead of PtE.

Ok, let see other deck which use Lavamancer - Zoo it its 50/50 MU most important are KotRs/StP in this MU. PtE on first turn Lavamancer can speed them out and destroy mana daniel plan vs them. Recycling KotR isn't scary. Bad is second turn KotR with our Cad Disadvantage (PtE is CD).

I never wasn't fan of PtE but now in the world of Missteps they lost much more. Actually I'm missing good isntant speed, point removal for 1W without drawback. As long as we don't get any of it, I would probably use Wing Shards on sb which are also good vs Prog/Protect - but remember that is my personal opinion, I wrote why I think this way, if anybody has other opinions share with your arguments.

[Koby]

There are:
Journey to Nowhere
Oblivion Ring
Last Breath
Lignify
Soul Snare

as options.

[SansSerif]

I really like berserk with beater decks and see a lot of upside with creatures like Rafiq, KoR, Goyf, and maybe even Terravore.

Has anyone done testing with berserk in this deck/archetype ?

Edit: correct typo and add Rafiq in place of Crusader.

[Ajsmirnov]

If you want to kill early Lackey/Confidant/Hierarch/Painter - maybe Sunlance?

[Philipp2293]

Berserk + Mirran Crusader = No.

[SansSerif]

I meant rafiq, appologies.

[Tranny Commando]

Long time lurker, 1st time poster. I play local tourneys about once a month, but I'm not sure w/ the meta how to shape the sideboard and some main deck choices. I'm not sold on the ooze, ppl over value new cards. The meta is all merfolk, goblins and silly decks(high tide, lands, hive mind, ant and dredge). Half of the time the opponent is playing a single colored deck, heavy on the merfolk.

4 mother of runes
4 noble hierarch
2 scryb ranger
2 tarmogoyf*
4 stone forge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
1 thrun*the last troll

4 green sun's zenith
4 swords to plowshares
2 sylvan library
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 jitte
1 elspeth, the knight errant

3 wasteland
4 windswept Heath
2 misty rain forest
2 horizon canopy
4 Savannah*
2 forest
2 plains
1 dryad arbor
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

Sb
2 Krosan grip
2 phyrexian revoker*
2 path to exile
3 thorn of amethyst*
1 bodjuka bog
2 Dueling grounds*
1 enlightened tutor
2 kitchen finks

[Fatal]

Ooze is worth his prize.

Let analysis your meta:

Merfolks - + 3 Mental Misstep
Goblins - + 1 Jitte (you can play 2 MD it still worth) + 3 Mental Misstep
Lands - + 3 Mental Misstep, + 1 Wasteland, + 1 Ooze
Dredge - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
Hive Mind - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
ANT - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg

Total:
+ 3 Mental Misstep
+ 1 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Ooze
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg

Those cards could be helpful MD.

Now think what we can replace:

You didn't post any control decks as BUG Still, or U/w Control so:
- 2 Sylvan Library
- 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Savannah/or plains adding one more fetchland, and then add one more land best will be on one MoR which are poor against Combo
- 1 Tarmogoyf - one really enough, its mostly a wall which doesn't do too much
- 1 SoLS - I don't see here any controls, or Aggro Mirrors where this sword shin so second Jitte would be much better vs Goblins/Fish

1 More slots needed, I suggest MoR slot, to improve MU vs Combo/Dredge and other things where see is medicore.

Now SB plans:

Fish:

+ 2 Dueling Grounds its really enough, sometimes ppl put also Chokes which working on Controls, but I think its not needed here.
+ 2 Path to Exile
- 1 Ooze
- Gaddock Teeg - it depends on opponent SB plan if he using Submerge Gaddock Should stay - in this situation probably Thrun is the worst one due to high cost
- 1 Qasali Pridemage - yes, vs Opponent Jitte we have second Jitte so better fetch Jitte with SFM and be sure it will resolve, 1 QP enough
- 1 Thinking about last slot here it depends on your play style but probably I would took of Eternal Witness 6 spot removal is easily enough and not needed to fetching them.

Your opponent sb plan in this MU - mostly:
- Submerge
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Sower of Temptation
- Threads of Disloyalty
- Dismember
- Mind Harness

The most dangerous is Submerge, your strategy is to fetch Scryb as soon as possible and equip it, removing threads (Lords) from point removal.

Goblins

Similar to Folks but I wouldn't add Path to Exile.

So:
+ 2 Dueling Grounds
- 1 Gaddock Teeg - dead card in this MU
- 1 Thrun - he is just to slow

Opponent SB plan:
-Pyrokinesis - don't think that Gaddock can save you from it, with such a heavy removal deck it will die to Gemplam mostly
- Perish - if he runs B splash

Strategy - Similar to Folks Jitte - Go they can't handle fast jitte. With Dueling Backup, you can also add E.Tutor to stabilize Duelings.

High Tide:

Basically he can't go with Gaddock on table, but he can answer it by Cuning Wish - Snap/Chain of Vapor/any other bounce (if MoR is on table with Split Second), the most important here is to Fetch Gaddock asap and clock with Mental Missteps countering cantrips. Important is first turn drop + GSZ + Beater and number of MM on hand.

SB plan:

+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 E. Tutor

-4 StP

More hate on table mean more time for beating, if your hand doesn't contain hate or very fast clock - ship it.

SB in opponent:

- Snap
- Hibernation
- Repeal - this card is garbage as soon as Gaddock hit the table.

I like Rafiq in this MU which can be really nice dmg dealer - but it depends on your play style.

Lands:

This MU isn't so bad as most ppl think key are wastelands, Hierarchs and our MD hate - Ooze

SB plan:
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 3 Thorn of Amethyst

- 3 StP
- 1 Maze of Ith

I would add one Tormod's Crypt to SB in slot of Kitchen Finks - they're mostly used vs hard aggro as Zoo, which isn't present in your meta. Crypt would improve Lands/Dredge/ANT MU.

Opponent SB plan:
+ Zuran Orb
+ Bojuka if not in MD
+ Tabrnacle - 2 total
+ EE/Oblivion Stone


Strategy is easy, Fetch Ooze and sculpt his engine, MM his ramp (Exploration/Manabond) avoid Mindslaver/Scapeshift (depends on their win con) with Gaddock Teeg, Waste thier tabernacle. Remember that Gaddock Teeg also stops EE, look out for Oblivion Stone if he runing it use Revokers it also works well vs Zuran Orb, but mostly Pithing Needle would be better here (can name Maze).

Hive Mind:

Its bad MU, key to victory is clock and disrupt - Wastelands, Gaddock Teeg, MM cantrips, blow up Grim Monoliths - first game is hard to win, but not impossible - depends on your opponent hand. If he made mistake and use Emrakul as wincon he lose.

Game 2 depends how many hate you have. Best weapon - for sure Angel's Grace, but it's too narrow mostly so:

+ 3 Thorn of Amethyst
+ 1 Enlightened Tutor
+ 2 Krosan Grip
- 2 Scryb Ranger
- 4 StP

Card which is missing is Ethersworn Canonist, also you can replace one Hierarch to Birds of Paradise to have a changes for paying pacts - its little change, but sometimes worth.
Canonist stops S&T hive Mind plan, if you can blow it up. I also use Aven Mindcensors which works well vs Intuition.

Opponent SB:

Firespout
Ancient Grudge

As soon as you stick KotR on table with any hate its win.

Dredge:

This MU isn't bad. I played about 10 Dredge players this year on tournament and never lost which is my really good record. Important is starting hand.

your Sb:

+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 2 Dueling Grounds
+ 2 Path to Exile
+ 1 E.Tutor

-2 Scryb Ranger
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Thrun
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 MoR - do nothing, only stall which is bad vs Dredge

Key is MMs, Wastelands, Jitte, GY hate,Gaddock, KotRs. Don't forgot that you can recycle Dryad Arbor to blow up Bridges, Sculpt GY with Ooze, Stick Grounds and the wins is yours.

Opponent SB plan:
-Firestorm
-Ancient Grudge

Firestorms can be pain, but MM can really mess up his plans. Also Ooze sculpting important things in GY.
Remember that Amoeba triggers from GY you can Remove it with Ooze in resp to its trigger.

ANT:

An other independent from us MU, but isn't so bad with good MD.
Key to victory - Manadrop + GSZ + Misstep. Or just good clock + Missteps. Most of them can't deal with Gaddock G1 - its our window to win.

SB plan:
+3 Torn of Amethyst
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

-2 Scryb Ranger
-1 Thrun
-2 StP - sometimes life matter..
-2 Qasali Pridemage

Again missing Tormod's Crypt which mostly avoid IGG plan which is prime vs Aggro, also Canonist would help.

His sb:
+ Chain of Vapor
+ Echoing Truth
+ More bounce/Slaughter Pact

Ok so there are advice based on upper analysis to SB:
+ 1 Tormod's Crypt - Improve Dredge, ANT, Lands MU
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist Improve Hive Mind, ANT, Spiral MU
+ 1-2 Angel's Greace/Sundial of the Infinite, Improve Hive Mind MU which is hard here.

Slots to replace:
-2 Kitchen Finks - they're slow and doesn't bring to much its only good vs fast Zoo/Burn MU
-2 phyrexian Revoker - not working so good, can be used vs Goblins and Fishes but its only soft hate, and easily to took off.

I hope it helps :)

[Tranny Commando]

Hell yeah, it does alot, thanks. but in the interest of using your adivice properly, are you advocating, dropping the Mothers for the Missteps? a friend of mine, playtested it like crazy in Deadguy Ale and never seemed great crammed in a non Blue deck

[Fatal]

You can simple replace one Savannah for one Tropical but it's not necessary paying 2 life is almost always worth that tempo.

DeadAle Guy is diffrent deck, much more incosistant than GW. Also note that:

6-7 Fetchlands + 4 Hierarchs are about 10-11 Blue source - mostly enough. It fits to this deck, Mom need mana to be played this doesn't. MM improve bad MU - mostly Combo, but works also good vs a lot of things. Playtest them you will see that MoR isn't so great. It only wait for tap to get removal in respond, it doesn't attack nor stops important things. Sure she can be good in midrange mirror, but MM are just better in my eyes for being free with bigger spectrum.

Best for you will be testing :)

[Julian23]

Merfolks - + 3 Mental Misstep
Goblins - + 1 Jitte (you can play 2 MD it still worth) + 3 Mental Misstep
Lands - + 3 Mental Misstep, + 1 Wasteland, + 1 Ooze
Dredge - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
Hive Mind - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg
ANT - + 3 Mental Misstep + 1 Gaddock Teeg

Side in Gaddock Teeg vs. Lands as well. Actually, you should have 1 maindeck anyways. Against Lands, it shuts down Smokestack/Mindslaver but most importantly, Engineered Explosives.

[Fatal]

Yes, I was metion that later just didn't wrote that upper:


Strategy is easy, Fetch Ooze and sculpt his engine, MM his ramp (Exploration/Manabond) avoid Mindslaver/Scapeshift (depends on their win con) with Gaddock Teeg, Waste thier tabernacle. Remember that Gaddock Teeg also stops EE, look out for Oblivion Stone if he runing it use Revokers it also works well vs Zuran Orb, but mostly Pithing Needle would be better here (can name Maze).

[apprentice]

Hello,
I have recently built a maverick deck since i really like the idea of fetching utility cards. Ive been following this thread for some time now but im still a bit confused on how to play it. I know its a difficult deck to play and i would really appreciate it if I could get feedbacks, thanks!

here are some scenarios that im still not sure on what to do.

-if i have a chance to ramp a kotr should i play it? what if i have sfm in hand, which to play first?
-if i get "out muscled" by my opponent via multiple lords, what can i do?
-if im against an opponent with FoW(control/merfolks), should i try to hold back my kotr/gsz?
-when are the times should i fetch batterskull/jitte?
-early game if i have a chance to play multiple exalted creatures should i play them and go aggro? or play kotr when i have the chance?

heres the current list im running:

(26 creatures)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the last Troll

(2 enchantment)
2 Sylvan library

(4 sorcery)
4 Green Sun's zenith

(4 instant)
4 Swords to Plowshares

(3 artifact)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawas Jitte

(21 lands)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 verdant catacombs
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 maze of ith
1 Gaea's Cradle

most of the time I practice with my friend using his merfolk deck. I know merfolk is supposed to be good MU for mavericks but most of the time i play, he wins by 60/40 in his favor. im confused on what misplays im doing. I try to destroy his vials early whenever i can. I usually lose when he gets to bring down a lot of lords around 4th turn(via untapping lands using merrow rejeerey). I try to fetch sryb ranger whenever i need him. Most of the time he saves his FoW for gsz. I know batterskull is strong against merfolk but if he gets around 3-4 lords early game I cant do much, defensively. even if i land batterskull 3rd turn he can just simply use dismember.

[Chikenbok]

Sword of body and mind / Sword of fire and ice / Scryb Ranger?

Also beats v clique.

[TossUsToLions]

-if i have a chance to ramp a kotr should i play it? what if i have sfm in hand, which to play first?
-if i get "out muscled" by my opponent via multiple lords, what can i do?
-if im against an opponent with FoW(control/merfolks), should i try to hold back my kotr/gsz?
-when are the times should i fetch batterskull/jitte?
-early game if i have a chance to play multiple exalted creatures should i play them and go aggro? or play kotr when i have the chance?




1.) Depends. Against NO Rug/ Zoo, wait to play KoTR after you have two lands in the GY to get it out of bolt range. Otherwise, a t2 Knight is really good. If you have SFM in hand, I usuallyu play it as soon as I can (watch out for Daze here). In most matchups, fetching an equipment early is the best play. But, against some decks, you may need to play the KoTR first. Against combo, for example, KotR is necessary to try and get them in an early Wasteland-lock. Here, a t2 Knight is better than SFM. So, it just depends on your matchup, but I usually got for SFM first.

2.) Keep them off of their lords with Jitte and removal, fetch up a Ranger, and play Dueling Grounds. Blowing up their Vials helps to slow them down, especially alongside Choke.

3.) I don't see a reason to hold back, unless you're afraid of Daze. They only have 4 FoW's, and we have 4 Knights, 4 GSZ, 3-4 SFM, plus removal that they need to counter. We have too many must-counter bombs and they do not have nearly enough counters to keep up with us.

4.) I like fetching Jitte early against Folk/Gobbos, and sometimes against NO Rug (if they have a bunch of Arbors and Hierarchs out). Batterskull is good when the 4/4 germie token will be the biggest creature on the battlefield (exalted triggers help here). I also search for Jitte if you know your opponent has removal for your SFM. 5 mana takes a while to get to without SFM to put it into play. Jitte can be casted and equipped without SFM, though.

5.) Depends. In most games, I tend to get out my mana accelerators out as soon as possible, take a few blows to my life, then stabilize with bigger and better creatures than my opponent, and hold onto my removal. Be patient, you do not always need to be the beatdown at all times. Just try and build a good foundation, stabilize, then start dropping all of your bombs. This deck is so loaded with good cards that win the game that once you start applying the pressure, your opponent will not be able to keep up.
With that in mind, sometimes it is correct to just run out an early KotR.
For all of these points, it completely depends on your playstyle and your matchups. Just continue to practice with the deck, and you'll slowly learn when to do what with the deck.

Regarding the Folk matchup, landing an early Mother of Runes is really helpful for chump blocking. Also, get SFM out as soon as you can, and if it's early, fetch up a Jitte. IMO, Jitte is much better against Folk than Batterskull is early on. Once you get out exalted dudes, though, and your Batterskull can survive attacking into blockers, then Batterskull will probably win you the game.
After boarding, Dueling Grounds destroys them. I also side in Path to Exiles for extra removal on their lords.
Going turn one Hierach (or GSZ-->Dryad Arbor) is really important in this matchup. This allows t2 SFM with daze mana open, or t2 Knight, which will usually be the biggest creature on the board. If they do Daze here, though, then it is ok because then they are 2 lands back (we have an extra mana accelerator and they returned the land to their hand with Daze).

Good luck and keep praacticing. Hope this helped.

[Tao]

First of all: how many games did you lose to mana problems? I always play 22 Mana lands and 20 is very little. With only 12 ways to produce G on turn 1 you will already be forced to Mulligan 20% of your 7 card hands only due to the lack of Green Mana. One strength of Maverick should be to almost never mulligan.
I would recommend to try - 2 Mindcensor (or whichever other card you like least) and + 2 Horizon Canopy.

Other than that your list should have a good matchup against Merfolk. With 4 MoR, Scryb Ranger and 4 SFM you already have the best Anti Merfolk setup.

I almost never destroy Aether Vial. I just let them have it unless it is obvious that they need it or if I have a Pridemage and nothing else to do. But most of the games their Vial lives to the end. It doesn't do anything scary, GW can't counter anyway and the Tempo gain by Vial is not that relevant. By destroying Vial with Pridemage you also lose a lot of Tempo and don't get a card out of it.




-if i have a chance to ramp a kotr should i play it? what if i have sfm in hand, which to play first?
-if i get "out muscled" by my opponent via multiple lords, what can i do?
-if im against an opponent with FoW(control/merfolks), should i try to hold back my kotr/gsz?
-when are the times should i fetch batterskull/jitte?
-early game if i have a chance to play multiple exalted creatures should i play them and go aggro? or play kotr when i have the chance?.

Your questions depend very much on how the actual game looks, the board, your opponent and your hand.
As an easy example: if you played Hierarch T1 and you have SFM and KotR against Merfolk you have to consider Daze and FoW. If you have a lot of gas in hand and went first then run out KotR, if he Dazes he has no lands if play and that is very good for you. If he forces that is even better because you spent your Mana better and now your SFM will resolve. On the other hand if your hand is something like "2 Land, Mindcensor, KotR, SFM" then just play around Daze fo the rest of the game.

The multiple Lord draw is usually their only way to beat you. You have to try to control it with Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger and Swords on their important Lords (Reejerey, Sovereign, Coralhelm if you don't have Scryb).

[Koby]

RE Merfolk -

Sometimes getting SoFI is better than Jitte. This will depend on how big your creatures are, and what their life total is. With the version that run Dismember, just getting the evasion online is sometimes better.

[_erbs_]

Guys what do you board in against ubg control, stoneblade or uxx landstill ?

Currently i only run 3 choke but it seems its not that good when it hit the board, unless you can catch them tapped out, but if not you have to hold that choke in your hand and wait for the right moment to cast it. While you wait the more chances they could discard it or load on countermagics.

[_erbs_]

@tao
a very interesting note on the land count.., can you post your land configuration., currently im also running 21 lands (arbor included) and at times i feel i need to add more lands.

@apprentice
how do you find the 4 gsz against merfs.., do you sometimes ask yourself if this gsz was a creature card and not gsz.. i would love to hear your thoughts about it..

as for the merfs matchup.., why are you using solas main over sofi ?? is black a big part of your meta ?, the 3 default equips im using are: jitte, sofi and batterskull.

[Philipp2293]

Since I'm at work, some quick notes:

-) I run 22 lands, and my current configuration is ultra smooth.

-) Boarding against control: Usually Teegs and Grip (Grip against UGB Deedstill depending on skill level of op.). I cut Choke cause it didn't do enough.

-) SoLaS + Scryb Ranger: Really strong config against control. It's the reason I run SoLaS over any other Sword (next to Jitte and Batterskull).

-) My current streak over the last 3 tourneys is 14-0-1, drawing against Blade Control (couldn't even finish G1 in time, he was short 3 cards of library out).

[_erbs_]

Since I'm at work, some quick notes:

-) I run 22 lands, and my current configuration is ultra smooth.

-) Boarding against control: Usually Teegs and Grip (Grip against UGB Deedstill depending on skill level of op.). I cut Choke cause it didn't do enough.

-) SoLaS + Scryb Ranger: Really strong config against control. It's the reason I run SoLaS over any other Sword (next to Jitte and Batterskull).

-) My current streak over the last 3 tourneys is 14-0-1, drawing against Blade Control (couldn't even finish G1 in time, he was short 3 cards of library out).

Maybe you can post your deck build and Sb ?
Thanks

[apprentice]

@TossUsToLions
I tried adding extra removals and it really improves my matchup, regarding early ramp sometimes he dismembers the hierarch if he has a lot of lords in hand, then tries to build up his army. The extra removals really help in those scenarios.

@Tao
I have had several times where I had problems with mana when getting early arbor,maze,cradle which stalls me for a turn. Ill try play testing with 2 more mana lands, still not sure which to cut though. Regarding the merfolk MU, extra removals really helps, Id probably add 2-3 paths in sb.

@ruckus
I actually have SoFI in my sb, Whenever I play with my friends we dont use our SB, I guess we should start using them if we plan to play competitively. I put SoFI in SB only since I have a feeling our meta have more mavericks and combo(hivemind)

@erbs
My friend(merfolk deck) prefers to counters GSZ if sryb isnt in play yet, to prevent sryb from entering and at the same time lessening the consistency of my deck, he also runs dismember to kill off kotr(early game),sfm,batterskull token. Sometimes I fetch arbor with GSZ if I need to ramp/have mana problems, GSZ sometimes gets countered by missteps(when I play GSZ for 0). GSZ also gets countered if I dont have any threats in board yet.

regarding having solas over sofi, our meta are mostly mirrors(maverick) and combo(hivemind). I kinda prefer solas also since it protects my creatures from staple removals like stp and black removals. although I have sofi in sb just incase I need it




Thank you for the feedbacks!

I have a question regarding show and tell, If the opponent plays show and tell, since it requires both players to put something on board, if lets say he puts in emrakul/hivemind can I play Oblivion Ring to exile either of the two?

[Artlee]

I have a question regarding show and tell, If the opponent plays show and tell, since it requires both players to put something on board, if lets say he puts in emrakul/hivemind can I play Oblivion Ring to exile either of the two?

Yes. If it's game 1, you put knight of the reliquary into play instead, then fetch for karakas and bounce emrakul.

[Philipp2293]

Maybe you can post your deck build and Sb ?
Thanks

// Lands
4 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [SHM] Forest (4)
1 [PT] Plains (1)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [OD] Terravore
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile

Leaving me with 3 Flex slots in the SB. So far I haven't been able to test Edric yet :/

[DarkJester]

@apprentice: that works against the spaghetti monster, but if he drops hivemind he will respond with pacts to your o-ring trigger and you will still get your copies of them...poor world ;)

[TossUsToLions]

I don't understand how people are coming to the assumption that Choke is not good enough. I can't count the number of games that my opponent just says "I don't have an answer to that" and scoops. The only other card in this deck that has ever gotten that same reaction is Thrun. May I ask what matchups you side it in against? It isn't very good in the Folk matchup (but not bad), but it is amazing vs. Stoneblade and Landstill and other blue control decks. It is also pretty good, sometimes really good against NO Rug and Team America.

[Koby]

I don't understand how people are coming to the assumption that Choke is not good enough. I can't count the number of games that my opponent just says "I don't have an answer to that" and scoops. The only other card in this deck that has ever gotten that same reaction is Thrun. May I ask what matchups you side it in against? It isn't very good in the Folk matchup (but not bad), but it is amazing vs. Stoneblade and Landstill and other blue control decks. It is also pretty good, sometimes really good against NO Rug and Team America.

Agreed. The point to keep in mind when playing with Choke is that it's all about timing.

Nothing is better than casting Choke against a Turn 4 Jace 8)

[Qweerios]

What do you guys think of Mana Tithe? I play with 3 Mental Missteps and 3 Mana Tithe and this card is shocking on G1. Nobody expects it and it keeps your opponent of their toes for G2 and G3. Tithe is extremely satisfying when it counters Hymn and FoW. Being able to interact with the stack while playing GW is strangely powerful. Alongside MM, GSZ, Teeg, Enlightened Tutor, and Canonist, my combo matchup is quite good.

[Maëlig]

I play with 3 Mental Missteps and 3 Mana Tithe
Where did you find the room for all that? The real question you should ask yourself is whether it's better than what you cut, both in terms of raw power and reliability (MM and tithe especially are pretty conditional).

[Qweerios]

Mana Tithe is powerful in G1 because it will counter something. It becomes a great option to side out for G2 and it is probably the only card that will have an effect on your opponent despite being sided out. I initially removed 3 Goyfs for 3 Tithes because Goyfs have been such a bad early play for me, are overshadowed by Knights, and never seem to grow fast enough. Between having 3 more threats on top of my 20+ or having 3 white conditional counterspells that give me that mind game edge, I prefer the latter. The look on people's faces when they get countered is priceless...

Here is my list for reference:

Creature (19)
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore

Instant (10)
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (4)
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Artifact (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Land (22)
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Choke
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Bojuka Bog

[Fatal]

No brainstorms = mana Tithe = bad draw in turn 4 and so long, lose of consistent = mot worth unless Hive Mind Infected meta.

[testing32]

Got 7th at SCG Richmond with Maverick. My only loses were to the eventual winner. If I had played a little bit better in the top 8 matches I might of been able to take it. It's a rough match up though.

Deck felt very strong. There wasn't very much hivemind so the angel's graces were dead. I was really wishing they were a pithing needle and 2 o-rings. SoFaF was great. I didn't miss SoFaI.

The posted my list incorrectly. There was 1 null rod and 3 paths.

[Philipp2293]

Congratz on your finish. What did you play against, and what would you change about your list (apart from SB Angel Grace)?

[testing32]

Dark Depths Rock
Dead guy
Dead guy
Mono-White Stax
NO RUG
Into the Breach
Folk
ID

Top 8
Into the Breach

Goyf wasn't impressive at all. Thrun also didn't help. I think that had more to do with what I was paired against.

Mindscensors were ok. I think they could of been amazing if I had played them better. They were a recent addition and I wasn't casting them during my turn enough. Ooze was A+, much better than goyf.

[Philipp2293]

Well, your impressions seem to overlap mine, I've cut Goyf some time ago, and recently also Thrun (even against Stoneblade, I'd rather have one more Pridemage).

I agree that the Mindcensors are pretty good.

[apprentice]

What do you guys think of running Garruk, Primal Hunter?

he gives both board presence with the 3/3 or 6/6 tokens and card advantage....

instead of running Elspeth or sylvan library..

[Philipp2293]

Well, I currently run neither Sylvan Library nor Elspeth, but the thing is that Garruk is really clunky in this deck. He better fits in a control shell IMO. You be able to create enough board presence already anyway.

[apprentice]

good point, I agree that 5cc and triple green might be too much.

I was thinking that he could be a good card against control.

I run sylvan library md and elspeth in sb. I was thinking of using him instead of the two, so I could have more space for other cards in sb

[Machahiko]

5cc is a lot and most of the time the size of the tokens actually doesnt even matter. (3/3 creature turn 4/5 is good against..?)

I myself believe that Elspeth is superior planeswalker. For cards against control, we already have Thrun and Scryb Ranger with equipments. Or even possibly one of my favorite creatures ever, Vexing Shusher.

[Maëlig]

I just don't get how you can cut MoR from any list. Heck, it's probably the only reason to play such a creature-packed deck compared to stuff with more draw / disrupt like rock or bant.

I also top8ed a 79-people tournament last sunday, I'm too lazy for a full report but here's the breakdown :
2-0 vs merfolk
2-1 vs eva green
2-0 vs fast zoo
1-2 vs NO-pattern combo
2-0 vs maverick
2-0 vs aluren
IID

lost 1-2 in the top8 to maverick.

[Koby]

I just don't get how you can cut MoR from any list. Heck, it's probably the only reason to play such a creature-packed deck compared to stuff with more draw / disrupt like rock or bant.

I also top8ed a 79-people tournament last sunday, I'm too lazy for a full report but here's the breakdown :
2-0 vs merfolk
2-1 vs eva green
2-0 vs fast zoo
1-2 vs NO-pattern combo
2-0 vs maverick
2-0 vs aluren
IID

lost 1-2 in the top8 to maverick.

Congrats!

I justify cutting Mother of Runes in my metagame because creature-on-creature features don't pop up too much. Instead, my metagame is infested with combo decks (Elves, ANT, Hive Mind, etc). Against these decks, Mother of Runes is severely lacking. I replaced them with Mental Misstep.

I also did well with Maverick over the weekend. Also too lazy to report on individual games, but most of the matches were not even close.

Round 1 - No RUG (2-0)
Round 2 - Stoneblade (0-2)
Round 3 - WB "Lockdown" (2-0)
Round 4/5 - was a blur. I know I played Hive Mind in one of the two, but I can't recall the other matchup. Won these two matches.
Round 6 - ID

Top 8 - Combo Elves (2-0) - drew Jitte at the right times
Top 4 - Combo Elves (1-2) did not draw Jitte early enough/not enough disruption

Decks runs great, just needs a bit of extra help against Combo.

[Julian23]

Marius Hausmann won the German Legacy Championships 2011 (180 people) this weekend, piloting the following list:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

1 Eternal Witness
4 Mother of Runes
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Most of his Swiss rounds were 2-0 victories in the mirror. Top8 run was against Bug Landstill, NO Rug and some uwb deck in the finals.

[Maëlig]

Nice results.



I justify cutting Mother of Runes in my metagame because creature-on-creature features don't pop up too much. Instead, my metagame is infested with combo decks (Elves, ANT, Hive Mind, etc). Against these decks, Mother of Runes is severely lacking. I replaced them with Mental Misstep.
I disagree. Mother is key in those MU to protect your teeg / canonist, which is the only way to reliably win against those decks. This being said I like MM too, which is why I play both.

[Julian23]

This being said I like MM too, which is why I play both.

cutting...?

[TossUsToLions]

Congrats to testing32, Maelig, and rukcus on your awesome finishes. @testing32, I'm still pissed that SCG won't call your deck Maverick. This deck gets no respect in the States...

Anyways, it seems like everyone is still running Mindscensors. Have they been performing well for everyone? I recently switched to Mirran Crusaders, and have been loving them. But that is in my Goyf-infested meta. Maybe it is time to test AM again?

[testing32]

Congrats to testing32, Maelig, and rukcus on your awesome finishes. @testing32, I'm still pissed that SCG won't call your deck Maverick. This deck gets no respect in the States...

Anyways, it seems like everyone is still running Mindscensors. Have they been performing well for everyone? I recently switched to Mirran Crusaders, and have been loving them. But that is in my Goyf-infested meta. Maybe it is time to test AM again?

I yelled at Glenn Jones to name it correctly before the top 8. He was less than helpful. I got 3th with it a month ago at a SCG IQ and they called my deck "Bant Stoneblade". GW aggro is a big step up from that.

Mindscensor helps with all the iffy/bad match ups: ANT, NO RUG and any deck w/SFM or Intuition. But, no they are not a sexy slot like crusader.

If you're able to equip and swing with a mirran crusader you're already winning. I had them in for a while and cut them.

[TossUsToLions]

I yelled at Glenn Jones to name it correctly before the top 8. He was less than helpful. I got 3th with it a month ago at a SCG IQ and they called my deck "Bant Stoneblade". GW aggro is a big step up from that.

Mindscensor helps with all the iffy/bad match ups: ANT, NO RUG and any deck w/SFM or Intuition. But, no they are not a sexy slot like crusader.

If you're able to equip and swing with a mirran crusader you're already winning. I had them in for a while and cut them.

Hahaha, I saw a list called "Bant Stoneblade" somewhere and I was thinking, "Wait, this is Maverick..."

I don't know how narrow of a situation this is, but when testing against my main playtest partner, who plays NO Rug or NO Bant, I have actually won (multiple times) using Mirran Crusader where, if I didn't have it, I would've lost. One extreme example of this is when he got a Proggy out, drops me to four, and I proceed to swing with my Crusader, equipped with a Batterskull, with two exalted triggers to deal him exactly 16 damage for the win. Obviously this isn't a common example, but Crusader does help to race Progenitus. I think I've actually improved my NO Rug matchup since making the switch, which seems odd to me.
The protection from germ tokens helps us race Batterskulls in the Stoneblade matchup, too.

[Maëlig]

cutting...?
Maze (knight is usually the biggest guy on the board, so most of the time I just want to attack with it or possibly wasteland my opponent if I see him struggling for mana, rarely fetch maze and play defensively) and random slots which people usually devote to sylvan library or additional GSZ targets (which I find rarely useful, just like maze). This makes for a very tight list :

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Worldly Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Phyrexian Metamorph


Regarding the inclusion of aven mindcensor, it's obviously a metagame call. In addition to what testing32 said, I'd like to add that's it's golden in the mirror, and as you know maverick is quite popular here in Europe. It also seems like most of the other good and popular aggro-control decks (by which I mean bant and rock/junk) all play GSZ + SFM + knight, so it helps quite a lot there too.

[Mr.Dieth]

I'm the guy you played against in top 8, with the other maverick!
Interesting list! I will steal some idea's from there.
although, I really disagree with cutting maze of ith!, it's just 1 slot.

And if you had it against me, you would have won if you had it when I was stomping you with the terravore ( you even had an active Knight if I recall )

[Maëlig]

Oh hey! :)
Did you beat BUGstill in the final?
Yeah I agree that the inclusion of maze is debatable, I might cut the lone goyf to fit it back in. Indeed it might have given me the game against you, although in the mirror it will often eat a wasteland so that's a moot point.
Idk, guess I'm just afraid of the occasional dead draw. I'll give it a try though.

[Mr.Dieth]

Yess, I did win from the bugstill player.

Life from the loam / waste lock is just too good against them.

[Morte]

LftL? Very interesting. Could you post your list?

[Julian23]

Usually, Life from the Loam is a 1-or-2-off in some people's sideboards to gain inevitability in the control matchup.