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personalbackfire
10-25-2013, 08:49 AM
hi all,

in an open meta where im choosing to play Dark Maverick, Thoughtseize board, what would you suggest i do given the following choices?

a.) Thrun or Sigarda?
b.) Maze of Ith or Yavimaya Hollow?



I've recently picked up this deck and would be interested in hearing the response to these questions too.

Also, if playing Dark Maverick with 3 Thalia main, would playing 2 Lingering Souls and 2-3 Thoughtseize main be too much anti-synergy especially given the context that there is also some anti-synergy with Teeg and GSZ?

ironclad8690
10-25-2013, 11:02 AM
Personally I would play thrun and maze of ith. I would put lingering souls in the sideboard, but thoughtseize is fine alongside thalia. Curving t1 thoughtseize t2 thalia is rad vs any combo deck.

buloid
10-25-2013, 12:31 PM
I've recently picked up this deck and would be interested in hearing the response to these questions too.

Also, if playing Dark Maverick with 3 Thalia main, would playing 2 Lingering Souls and 2-3 Thoughtseize main be too much anti-synergy especially given the context that there is also some anti-synergy with Teeg and GSZ?



i agree. put the Souls in the sideboard, and having thoughtseize main is acceptable given that Thalia is almost always kill on sight to some decks.

@ironclad8690

interesting choices. that's my current setup now and i'm toying with Y. Hollow and Sigarda because Maze of ith is almost always useless against RUG where hollow is better for its attrition (forget wasteland for purposes of discussion) and the fact that it produces mana.

Sigarda wins vs Jund and Shardless Bug where Maze of Ith is also ok, but hollow doesn't do as much.

Also, given Sunyveil's new tech Master of the Hunt, would that be a better choice over Thrun? His MTGO setup has both Master and Sigarda main, but no Thrun! /confused

Barook
10-25-2013, 01:03 PM
i agree. put the Souls in the sideboard, and having thoughtseize main is acceptable given that Thalia is almost always kill on sight to some decks.

@ironclad8690

interesting choices. that's my current setup now and i'm toying with Y. Hollow and Sigarda because Maze of ith is almost always useless against RUG where hollow is better for its attrition (forget wasteland for purposes of discussion) and the fact that it produces mana.

Sigarda wins vs Jund and Shardless Bug where Maze of Ith is also ok, but hollow doesn't do as much.

Also, given Sunyveil's new tech Master of the Hunt, would that be a better choice over Thrun? His MTGO setup has both Master and Sigarda main, but no Thrun! /confused
I'm following Sunyveil's tech closely and play a similiar list - I would go with Maze and Sigarda.

I can't agree with the RUG analysis. Maze can still stop Delvers and Goyfs in a pinch. Sure, Hollow provides mana in certain match-ups where Maze is dead like disco, but I can't see the benefits of Hollow. Hell, I would rather run the DD combo over Hollow.

Landing Sigarda against Jund is a prime strategy to victory since they simply can't remove or stop it at all. Sigarda is pretty great as a high-end GSZ target, with only Terminus and other sweepers being a downside.

MotWH is mainly in the board against BUG Shardless since they have alot of trouble to remove it while his nuke ability wrecks them. He blows against anything running Bolts, though.

oSeabass
10-25-2013, 01:41 PM
How would a GW version beat a deck like Show & Tell. In the old days, you could just run Gilded Drake or Blazing Archon to stop them from winning, but now a days a lot of people games 2 just wait to get there with Sneak Attack so you don't get a chance to have your fatty.

Thalia slows them down, but having such a fast clock to really threaten a Griselbrand is very tough. I have tried Linvala to stop Griselbrand activations since you can actually cast her... but still it is very slow and is just dead to Emrakul.

Koby
10-25-2013, 01:56 PM
How would a GW version beat a deck like Show & Tell. In the old days, you could just run Gilded Drake or Blazing Archon to stop them from winning, but now a days a lot of people games 2 just wait to get there with Sneak Attack so you don't get a chance to have your fatty.

Thalia slows them down, but having such a fast clock to really threaten a Griselbrand is very tough. I have tried Linvala to stop Griselbrand activations since you can actually cast her... but still it is very slow and is just dead to Emrakul.

O-ring, KotR (into Karakas), Sigarda to prevent Emrakul blow-outs, Maze of Ith, Mom + flyer; or combinations of all of the above will help.

oSeabass
10-25-2013, 02:28 PM
Thoughts on the Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo in Maverick. Is it worth adding in the extra lands to replace some of the other utility lands?

ironclad8690
10-25-2013, 03:27 PM
O-ring, KotR (into Karakas), Sigarda to prevent Emrakul blow-outs, Maze of Ith, Mom + flyer; or combinations of all of the above will help.

Also phyrexian revoker (though usually seen in vial versions). Combinations of weenies can be pretty good, thalia/teeg/pridemage + a well timed wasteland can be enough to tempo them out and tutor up karakas to seal the game. Crop rotation gives you another way to get karakas out of the board. Choke can even stop them sometimes.

Pans-Advocate
10-26-2013, 03:07 AM
What was the latest evaluation of Loyal Retainers? Too clunky? Is Fauna Shaman not good enough? Does Dark Depths make it obsolete as a potential "I win" combo? Has anyone been using it successfully recently?

Barook
10-26-2013, 04:02 AM
O-ring, KotR (into Karakas), Sigarda to prevent Emrakul blow-outs, Maze of Ith, Mom + flyer; or combinations of all of the above will help.

That's how you deal with S&T mainly. They normally need to find a Sneak Attack to win. Teeg slows them down, forcing them to S&T Sneak Attack into play. Pithing Needle is also great, since Revoker dies to Pyroclasm.

ivanpei
10-27-2013, 02:16 AM
Dark Depths Replaces Maze of Ith & Thespian Stage replaces so-so lands like the 2nd canopy or a cavern of souls. It's much easier to squeeze in into a non splash straight up GW list. Yes if you see a Karakas on the opposing end of the table of expecting STP, you can just stick to plan A which is to beat face. If your opponents leaves knight on the table, that usually means they don't have Swords anyway. Jace, Liliana etc are sorcery speed and don't work very well at killing Marit Lage. Kotr can deal with Karakas really easily by fetching wasteland.

As for Loyal Retainers-Fauna Shaman, yes it's way too slow for an I win condition. I think it is powercreeped by the Dark Depths combo which requires very little slots. Loyal Retainers and Elesh Norn are very often dead draws and Fauna Shaman isn't the most robust creature. You can be tuturing a few turns to set up the combo but if Loyal Retainers gets countered, you are in trouble. Also Elesh Norn is scary only in the aggro/midrange mirror. Control can deal with Elesh Norn with Jace etc.

FortyThree
10-27-2013, 04:28 AM
My meta has a lot of people playing Engineered Plagues in their sideboards. With this in mind, would it be worth running a Wilt-Leaf Liege in the board to counter it? I'm thinking, specially since liege survives Decay, bolt and punishing fire.

Koby
10-27-2013, 10:19 AM
My meta has a lot of people playing Engineered Plagues in their sideboards. With this in mind, would it be worth running a Wilt-Leaf Liege in the board to counter it? I'm thinking, specially since liege survives Decay, bolt and punishing fire.

You could run Gaea's Anthem or Harmonic Sliver to deal with E Plague also, but WLL will be the most versatile; so yea seems legit.

mishima_kazuya
10-28-2013, 01:09 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60210

Thoughts?

I am strongly considering playing some variant of this list at Eternal Weekend, although it may be that this deck is not actually very good and Reid Duke is just a master with anything.

Combo match up seems a little suspect with your only interaction being Teeg, 4 Green Sun's Zenith(x=2), 3 Dazes, and 4 Wastelands. And True-Name Nemesis seems a little tough to beat with your only out being Daze.

ironclad8690
10-28-2013, 01:38 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60210

Thoughts?

I am strongly considering playing some variant of this list at Eternal Weekend, although it may be that this deck is not actually very good and Reid Duke is just a master with anything.

Combo match up seems a little suspect with your only interaction being Teeg, 4 Green Sun's Zenith(x=2), 3 Dazes, and 4 Wastelands. And True-Name Nemesis seems a little tough to beat with your only out being Daze.

One of the notable strengths of Reid's deck is the ability to sideboard into more of a "New Horizons" style bant list. Stoneforges tend to excel in the fair matchups, and you can side out some number of them/batterskull vs combo to bring in all the countermagic/meddling mages. He did mention in the interview afterwards that he designed it pretty specifically to hose show and tell decks (I'm guessing more the sideboard than the main), with the maindeck being pretty strong in the Delver/Shardless matchups. Jace is also a notable inclusion because people have been cutting him, but this deck has great creatures to protect him. If I were to play this, I would probably put SoFaI in the main and batterskull in the side.

Barook
10-28-2013, 02:11 PM
Reid Duke could even make Nourishing Lich look good.

His list looks overall pretty decent, though.

litenkatt
11-01-2013, 11:53 AM
Tomorrow I'll be playing in a rather large legacy tournament (Not BoM). Will bring Maverick, list pretty much identical to door's.

Problem is I'm not really as prepared as I'd like to. This is the 2nd time I'm playing Maverick at a tournament, first time was a catastrophe. Then I played dark maverick, lost to Elves 2 times, High Tide and then dropped. Only thing I learned from that tournament is... elves is a terrible matchup.

Anyways. The only preperation I have done this time is reading lots here, and play against my dear friend who plays reanimater and watch random games on youtube etc. Trust me when I say this - I know better than anyone else how to play against reanimater. (at least I hope so....) I've spent probably a fine 60-70hrs against that deck.

List looks like this:

CREATURES (25)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
ENCHANTMENTS (1)
1 Sylvan Library
INSTANTS (5)
1 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
PLANESWALKERS (1)
1 Garruk Relentless
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (22)
4 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Thespian’s Stage
1 Dark Depths
SIDEBOARD
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke


After I saw how Reid Duke killed his Elves opponent with Humility I thought I'd try that too.

Scavening Ooze - feels like I should have this card in my deck somewhere but I don't know where.. ideas?

I cut the Scryb Ranger for a 4th thalia because playing w/o any GSZ's, ranger feels too random. And I've been impressed with Thalia.... against reanimater that is....

oh well. let's see how it goes tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be having fun no matter !

ironclad8690
11-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Holy shit guys, what is going on:

http://screencast.com/t/vFQirHil

Have we really reached zoo status?

Water_Wizard
11-01-2013, 03:49 PM
Tomorrow I'll be playing in a rather large legacy tournament (Not BoM). Will bring Maverick, list pretty much identical to door's.

Problem is I'm not really as prepared as I'd like to. This is the 2nd time I'm playing Maverick at a tournament, first time was a catastrophe. Then I played dark maverick, lost to Elves 2 times, High Tide and then dropped. Only thing I learned from that tournament is... elves is a terrible matchup.



If you are really worried about Elves, run:
1: Gut Shot;
2: Path to Exile;
3: Tabernacle of the Vale (good with Crop Rotation and major surprise factor); and
4: Linvala, Keeper of Silence

You could also run Cursed Totem, although that is going to shut your guys off, too.

I would run Linvala over Humility, unless you want Humility to help you in the Show and Tell match-ups.

Barook
11-01-2013, 06:14 PM
Cursed Totem prevents any mana shenanigans, Ethersworn Canonist can slow them down, Teeg prevents NO and GSZ. Neither of them can totally stop them and all die to Abrupt Decay.

I like the idea behind Humility. Linvala doesn't prevent from going grabbing a Hoof and overrunning your shit - Humility does. Plus, if you run an E-Tutor board, you can tutor for it. Being relevant vs S&T is just the icing on the cake, saving you sideboard slots for O-Ring.


Holy shit guys, what is going on:

http://screencast.com/t/vFQirHil

Have we really reached zoo status?
The current meta is just too hostile for Maverick. I've paused playing on MODO for now because I see no point getting shat on in pretty much every round.

- Elves is horrible
- Jund is horrible
- BUG Shardless is bad
- Miracles is horrible
- fast combo on the play is horrible

Sure, a good player like Sunyveil can get good results from time to time with a bit of luck, but right now, I would rather play Death & Taxes (if I had the Ports) since it has the better tools to fight the meta.

Pans-Advocate
11-01-2013, 06:29 PM
I've seen Engineered Explosives as a SB answer to Elves as well (obviously it's better in splash versions, Punishing or Dark Mav, etc.)

Someone mentioned Holy Light as an answer to True-Name Nemesis out of Death and Taxes. Kills Hierarchs and Scryb Rangers so it might not be optimal, but it does do some work against Elves. Obviously if you are playing the black splash Zealous Persecution is pretty insane.

Lastly, Canonist does a ton of work in that matchup.

Fatal
11-02-2013, 03:14 AM
If you don't like Engineered Explosives, Wing Shards is very nice answer (work also very well vs elves). But i still prefer EE since its cheaper, but Wing Shards is 100% answer since it has storm, with proper play - you should answer all their board.

litenkatt
11-03-2013, 03:00 AM
Short report (60ish players)

r1 Goblins

Game1 I got double mom, safekeeper and a thalia with jitte attacking
Game2 Lackey go. I play safekeeper and feel rather safe. He bolts it main phase, i sac my land to it he has a 2nd bolt. Attacks with lackey, gets siege commander. Next turn chieftan and I scoop. GG
Game3 We durdle a bit and I wait for him to tap his wasteland so I can activate Knight and get my dark dephts. (i have stage in play alrdy and hes not aware of the combo) Eventually he does and Marit lage kills him

r2 Belcher
Game 1 I die on turn 1
Game 2 he makes 14 Goblins turn1

r3
Stiflenaught
Game 1 He wastelands me and stifle all my Fetch lands. Eventually he plays his dreadnaught with a 4th stifle on it and I scoop
Game 2 I mull to 6 and kept 3 plows, vial and 2 lands. Think I perhaps should have mulliganed this too, but meh. Naturally I draw nothing but my 4th plow, some lands and a bird. Tried to Plow his dreadnaught but he had double FoW so I scooped. (had to use the other plows on confidants)

r4
Elves
Game 1 Turn 3 kill
Game 2 I have the perfect hand. Mom into Canonist into Teeg into SFM.
Game 3 Turn 3 kill

1-3 and I dropped. Not sure how I feel about that but I still had great fun. I felt so good and confidant after round1...

Water_Wizard
11-03-2013, 05:39 AM
I played in a MTGO Legacy 8-man vs. Elves w/ the Vial version of the deck (Maverick's BOM list) and lost in 3. It's just a tough match-up, especially with the sideboard not tuned for it. E. Canonist definitely helps. Teeg does a good job shutting down GSZ and Natural Order, but we need a way to protect him (Mom/Safekeeper).

Fatal
11-03-2013, 01:36 PM
Looks like Punishing Maverick get to top8 at BOM ;) gg Fabian.

jonnnny
11-04-2013, 12:51 AM
Looks like Punishing Maverick get to top8 at BOM ;) gg Fabian.

Here's his list. 4c punishing maverick with dark stage combo... looks really greedy, I like it!

8. Görzgen, Fabian

Punishing Maverick


1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plateau
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
4 Green Sun's Zenith


SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

ivanpei
11-04-2013, 02:06 AM
That deck is so greedy on so many levels. I guess he accepts the auto scoop to combo without thalia? No reb or thalia in the board? Otherwise, damn that list looks like a ton of fun.

I'd love to read the report. Also, Mav just t8ed scg.

BlackStarDeceiver
11-04-2013, 02:54 AM
That deck is so greedy on so many levels. I guess he accepts the auto scoop to combo without thalia? No reb or thalia in the board? Otherwise, damn that list looks like a ton of fun.

I'd love to read the report. Also, Mav just t8ed scg.

The deck is greedy as hell, but he is sold on it. He played nearly the same list (different Side and no Depths) to a top8 in Strasbourg and he played Punishing Maverick to top8 GP Amsterdam as well, so i guess it's a tiny little bit playskill and experience involved. He always got me in the Maverick Mirror Games , i mean i'm no slouch with it, but he is just better xD

Not sure though if he is posting on here, i will ask him if there will be a report.

litenkatt
11-04-2013, 08:23 AM
His deck looks sweet indeed. Seems like he lost to elves in the top 8 and I'm not suprised

I'm curious though as to why there was no Thalias in SB, or just in general more combo hate cards

ironclad8690
11-04-2013, 12:10 PM
I went 6-2-1 for 23rd in LA yesterday with punishing dark mav. Report to come soon!

bumgun
11-04-2013, 08:15 PM
I'll be taking maverick to the GP in a couple weeks so figured it's worth showing my most recent list to get suggestions, comments, concerns, etc. This is basically what I used to win a GPT a couple weeks ago.

Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Sigarda

Equip:
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library

Lands:
2x Savannah
3x Bayou
4x Windswept Heath
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Thoughtseize
1x Linvala
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

So far the only changes I've been leaning towards are cutting the Bog for a Loam in the SB and switching the Master of the Wild Hunt with the SB'd Garruk. Also been considering fitting a Sword of Fire and Ice in the SB to help with random TNN decks that I may encounter. As always, any comments are welcome.

ironclad8690
11-04-2013, 09:07 PM
So I played this list at SCG LA:

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds Of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Aven Mindcensor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Life From The Loam

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
1 Crop Rotation
2 Pyroblast
2 Oblivion Ring

Round 1: Michael with Shardless BUG
Game 1: Back and forth for a while with creatures/planeswalkers, I eventually establish the grove/p fire lock on his creatures and a large knight finishes up the game.
Game 2: Very grindy game, he gets an early sideboarded ashiok which is actually pretty problematic. Eventually I get a good enough board presence to keep his creatures at bay while aven mindcensor and scryb ranger fly overhead with a jitte to lock the game up.

1 - 0

Round 2: Daniel with Affinity
Game 1: He plays a turn 1 ornithopter and a couple of cranial platings. Game ends quickly as my deathrites sit there and look dumb
Game 2: now that I know he is on affinity, I mulligan until I find a stoneforge mystic. I get a jitte, he has a slow enough start for jitte to lock up the game.
Game 3: I keep a hand with GSZ, 2 stoneforge, noble hierarch, birds of paradise, verdant catacombs, wasteland. He gets a turn 2 blood moon, but luckily my noble and birds cast my two stoneforges on turn 3 for jitte batterskull. He bricks on creatures, and scoops it up.

2 - 0

Round 3: Daniel with Dredge
Game 1: He mulls to 5, I keep a pretty standard 7. I lead with taiga deathrite shaman, he plays LED and passes. I play a few creatures while he does nothing, and scoops shortly thereafter. I put him on belcher or oops all spells, so I side in 11 of my best storm/GY hate cards and hope for the best.
Game 2: He mulls to 5 again, I keep a hand with canonist an mom backup. Of course he careful studies and turns out to be playing dredge. Next turn I rip a scavenging ooze off the top and proceed to eat ichorids and dredgers each turn until he just runs out of gas.

3 - 0

Round 4: Sherwin with RUG

Game 1: We get called into the backup feature match area, and begin playing. Game 1 he plays wooded foothills pass, like an idiot I go windswept crack and he cracks and stifles in response. I don't get many lands on board, and by the time i do 3 goyfs and a flipped delver just run me over.
Game 2: I get an early choke on board and he can't do anything. Knight crashes in for enough
Game 3: He gets a nutter butter hand of sulfur elemental, rough/tumble, submerge and bolts and delver. I lose a mom and a stoneforge to rough/tumble after protecting stoneforge with my mom the turn before, and he runs me over with insane tempo plays. He was a very skilled pilot.

3 - 1

Round 5: Jason with Affinity
Game 1: Many artifacts + tezzeret win the game quickly.
Game 2: This one drags out for the longest time. I hope for a stoneforge/jitte/batterskull with all my heart, but they never come and etched champions finish me off.

3 - 2

Round 6: Alex with RUG
Game 1: He goes volcanic ponder, so I figure sneak and waste his volcanic. Next turn he goes dig with brainstorm, plays a fetch, and passes the turn. I play a fetch and crack immediately, he cracks misty and stifles my land. A few turns/wastelands later, I cannot stop his mongoose which runs me over.
Game 2: I get a choke out, proceed to win easily.
Game 3: Life from the loam + wasteland take care of his lands while I draw enough removal for his creatures.A big knight ends the game.

4 - 2

Round 7: Eric Froelich with ANT
Game 1: He duresses after basic swamp, takes a jitte given the choice of GSZ jitte and STP. I don't put him on storm and play a deathrite shaman. He plays a couple cantrips and infernal tutor for lotus petal. I GSZ for teeg the next turn. He scoops a couple turns later when batterskull hits the table.
Game 2: I get a mom + stoneforge into batterskull. He casts infernal tutor, gets a cabal ritual, casts it, but then I surgically extract his infernal tutor. He reveals a hand that had one, and hands over his library. I get all the tutors out, and he scoops it up after passing a couple of turns.

5 - 2

Round 8: Mark Lalague with RUG delver
Game 1: I continue the tradition of losing game 1 to delver despite getting grove/pfire combo. It was due to a combination of wasteland, daze and stifle backed up by tarmogoyf.
Game 2: My best friend choke resolves on turn 3. I get a couple of creatures on the board and he has no outs.
Game 3: I keep a nut hand of arbor, grove, windswept heath, life from the loam, wasteland, swords to plowshares, and punishing fire. He can't protect delver but keeps me off of two mana for a long time. he submerges my last green source, dryad arbor, for two turns in a row, but I eventually topdeck another land to cast life from the loam and go to town with wasteland while pumping my knight.

6 - 2

Round 9: Reese with RUG Delver

We decide to draw into top 32. I was 16th and not worried about not top 16ing. Gotta note that this little guy was like 11 years old and had a 10 cards sideboard. We play a couple games for fun, but choke isn't very fun for him and he decides to stop.

6 - 2 -1

All in all it was a great day. Got to see a couple others do well with maverick decks, and hang out with all of my magic buddies. The punishing fires were so good to me all day. I realized that my playstyle is very suited to grove/pfire and I was having a blast with the deck. Didn't miss sylvan library or maze of ith. Deathrite continues to be awesome and just downright win games sometimes. Got $100 for my troubles and I owe it all to Maverick. 23rd is the best I have done yet at a big tourney, and guarantee more wins to come with this greatest of decks.

litenkatt
11-05-2013, 10:24 AM
Nice report!

oSeabass
11-05-2013, 03:45 PM
So I played this list at SCG LA:

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds Of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Aven Mindcensor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Life From The Loam

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
1 Karakas

SB:
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
1 Crop Rotation
2 Pyroblast
2 Oblivion Ring

I've been debating playing Maverick at the DC GP coming up, seeing as how it is my favorite deck and I used to be very familiar with it. I recently have been liking the Black "Dark" Maverick lists running Deathrite and Discard. I see your list has both black for Deathrite (no maindeck black cards other then Deathrite if I read correctly) and sideboard cards like Surgical (which I really like now), as well as the red for Punishing Fire. How greedy do you feel the mana base was? With the 1 Birds and 3 Deathrite, you can make red easily with creatures enough. How often did you find yourself in trouble with a greedy 4 color mana base in a Wasteland defined format? I know Knight and fetches really alleviate the mana crunch, but Stifle can quickly ruin a deck like this.

In the future do you think going for a more strict 3 color selection (Naya, or Junk), would help smooth out draws and mana, as well as make the deck a little more resilient to Wasteland and Stifle? How often were you able to cast Black and Red spells in the same game on time (it helps Surgical can use 2 life in a pinch)? I know in my list I like the Bojuka Bog still, since it generates more black mana for Deathrite and cards liek Surgical and Thoughtseize.

oSeabass
11-05-2013, 03:58 PM
So far the only changes I've been leaning towards are cutting the Bog for a Loam in the SB and switching the Master of the Wild Hunt with the SB'd Garruk. Also been considering fitting a Sword of Fire and Ice in the SB to help with random TNN decks that I may encounter. As always, any comments are welcome.

-I have considered Master before in my 75, but I don't know if he really deserves a spot. I haven't tested with him enough.

-Sigarda in the main deck seems good against Show and Tell based decks, but how often do you have it in hand against the fast Show and Tells (turn 3 ish)? It not really feasible to rush it out with a GSZ of even hard cast it, because by the time you do Emrakul should have already attacked for the game and wipe the board. I don't know how I feel about the Sigarda main... it is 1 card to beat Show and Tell main deck, and you NEED to have it in hand for it to be relevant.

-Fire and Ice is solid, and I really like having it in the 75. It is my maindeck sword of choice for now to go along with Jitte. I opt to leave Batterskull in the board. In race matches where I am fighting down a hoard of tribal things, Jitte normally does the trick for cheaper and sometimes you can even drop it and play it the same turn you find it with a late game SFM. I have found the only real way to get Batterskull down is with SFM (who either eats removal, or the Batterskull gets Durressed out), or having a large board and Cradle.

-I know older lists ran Garruk as another removal spell in a pinch. Have you brought him in as removal (if so against what decks), or have you used him as a token machine (again, which decks)? I haven't played with him yet, so I am not sure of his place in the list.

-I really like the 3/2 split on Deathrites and Nobles. In a 3 color deck I feel 5 mana dorks is just right. A 4/1 split doesn't make sense, seeing as how the Exalted is a really nice bonus and Noble works on an empty graveyard or against decks not running fetches to fuel YOUR shaman (don't shrink Knight if we don't have to).

ironclad8690
11-05-2013, 05:24 PM
I've been debating playing Maverick at the DC GP coming up, seeing as how it is my favorite deck and I used to be very familiar with it. I recently have been liking the Black "Dark" Maverick lists running Deathrite and Discard. I see your list has both black for Deathrite (no maindeck black cards other then Deathrite if I read correctly) and sideboard cards like Surgical (which I really like now), as well as the red for Punishing Fire. How greedy do you feel the mana base was? With the 1 Birds and 3 Deathrite, you can make red easily with creatures enough. How often did you find yourself in trouble with a greedy 4 color mana base in a Wasteland defined format? I know Knight and fetches really alleviate the mana crunch, but Stifle can quickly ruin a deck like this.

In the future do you think going for a more strict 3 color selection (Naya, or Junk), would help smooth out draws and mana, as well as make the deck a little more resilient to Wasteland and Stifle? How often were you able to cast Black and Red spells in the same game on time (it helps Surgical can use 2 life in a pinch)? I know in my list I like the Bojuka Bog still, since it generates more black mana for Deathrite and cards liek Surgical and Thoughtseize.

I actually did not get mana screwed at all. In all of my recent testing, when I get beaten by tempo it isn't because I am playing too many non basics/colors, it is because they just have a hand with live cards at any given time. Even with GW straight I found myself getting blown out by stifle wasteland and daze just the same. I didn't end up using the Exile instant or sorcery mode on DRS much, only a couple times vs E. fro, but the red mana was always available if I fetched correctly in the early turns of a game. There was at least 1 case where I was able to use grove for green mana to prevent submerge and it was relevant as well. I think int he future I may switch back to hierarchs and cut black to allow for some number of cavern of souls to increase my tempo matchup game 1, though deathrite shaman is very insane and always worth stretching the manabase for. Also, I have 24 lands including arbor and they all produce mana, so that was probably a factor in not getting mana screwed.

Luklinda
11-06-2013, 10:20 AM
-I have considered Master before in my 75, but I don't know if he really deserves a spot. I haven't tested with him enough.

-Sigarda in the main deck seems good against Show and Tell based decks, but how often do you have it in hand against the fast Show and Tells (turn 3 ish)? It not really feasible to rush it out with a GSZ of even hard cast it, because by the time you do Emrakul should have already attacked for the game and wipe the board. I don't know how I feel about the Sigarda main... it is 1 card to beat Show and Tell main deck, and you NEED to have it in hand for it to be relevant.


Agreed, Master seems really slow.

Sigarda also hauls weight against liliana.dec. It gives you another potential card in hand to have to survive a turn against s&t into emmy (KotR + Karakas already).

jonnnny
11-06-2013, 10:33 AM
-Sigarda in the main deck seems good against Show and Tell based decks, but how often do you have it in hand against the fast Show and Tells (turn 3 ish)? It not really feasible to rush it out with a GSZ of even hard cast it, because by the time you do Emrakul should have already attacked for the game and wipe the board. I don't know how I feel about the Sigarda main... it is 1 card to beat Show and Tell main deck, and you NEED to have it in hand for it to be relevant.


Am I missing something? Sigarda only stops the annihilator trigger right? You're still facing down a 15 power flyer each turn until you eventually have to chump with Sigarda? It also does nothing versus Griselbrand?

Luklinda
11-06-2013, 10:45 AM
Am I missing something? Sigarda only stops the annihilator trigger right? You're still facing down a 15 power flyer each turn until you eventually have to chump with Sigarda? It also does nothing versus Griselbrand?

15 life doesn't kill you, gives you another turn to find any answers you may have to emmy, even if it's just karakas it can make a difference. Running other fliers means you have other chump-blockers too (scryb ranger, bop, linvala, mindcensor, etc.). Especially as mindcensor and scryb ranger have flash and you can bait them to swing with emrakul. It's more value against liliana decks imo.

Assuming you have any other creatures to beat face, finding 1-2 chump blockers or karakas should let you live through the emmy swings and swing back for the win - barring another threat.

oSeabass
11-06-2013, 11:17 AM
15 life doesn't kill you, gives you another turn to find any answers you may have to emmy, even if it's just karakas it can make a difference. Running other fliers means you have other chump-blockers too (scryb ranger, bop, linvala, mindcensor, etc.). Especially as mindcensor and scryb ranger have flash and you can bait them to swing with emrakul. It's more value against liliana decks imo.

Assuming you have any other creatures to beat face, finding 1-2 chump blockers or karakas should let you live through the emmy swings and swing back for the win - barring another threat.

This makes sense, and the flying seems like it helps block Emrakul. I don't run BoP main or Linvala in the board, but I think flying could help. Also it helps sure up the Death and Taxes match to slow down the Serra Ascendant, and blocking an annoying Mindcensor (to then allow KotR to tutor again).

I see the need for Sigarda against BUG and Liliana decks, so that is clearer now. Still really trying to figure out the Show and Tell match, cus it seems bad still. I am thinking having Cavern of Souls main and then something like Fiend Hunter, or Banisher Priest in the board to help have a human uncounterable ORing effect. The problem I found with ORing, is that if Show and Tell resolves dropping Griselbrand pass, they just respond to ORing by drawing 14, and finding a counterspell or misdirection to stop the ORing from resolving. Having an uncounterable reactive answer like Fiend Hunter seems very relevant in the board. We still die to Sneak Attacks though.

Luklinda
11-06-2013, 11:37 AM
This makes sense, and the flying seems like it helps block Emrakul. I don't run BoP main or Linvala in the board, but I think flying could help. Also it helps sure up the Death and Taxes match to slow down the Serra Ascendant, and blocking an annoying Mindcensor (to then allow KotR to tutor again).

I see the need for Sigarda against BUG and Liliana decks, so that is clearer now. Still really trying to figure out the Show and Tell match, cus it seems bad still. I am thinking having Cavern of Souls main and then something like Fiend Hunter, or Banisher Priest in the board to help have a human uncounterable ORing effect. The problem I found with ORing, is that if Show and Tell resolves dropping Griselbrand pass, they just respond to ORing by drawing 14, and finding a counterspell or misdirection to stop the ORing from resolving. Having an uncounterable reactive answer like Fiend Hunter seems very relevant in the board. We still die to Sneak Attacks though.

O. Ring via shown and tell can't be countered, but digging for one after I get.

Fiend Hunter/Banisher Priest seem extremely narrow as they're easier to remove and just like O. Ring they can draw with the trigger on the stack. Same reasoning why I hate using phyrexian revoker, too easy to remove if I really am using it to shut down an activated ability. In that case I'd rather linvala @ creatures (because she's big enough to not die to decay, burn, P. Fire), pithing needle for specific cards or null rod to hit artifacts; both of which hit all rather than named cards. Fiend Hunter/Banisher Priest may work for show and tell heavy metas though as opp. don't run as much creature removal, but if they do - they get their dude back. Too bad there isn't a color shifted stingscourger/aether adept for GW.

Linvala, Keeper of Silence says no-go for drawing cards. Granted, they still have a 7/7 lifelinking demon, but that's controllable via MOM-pro blocks/attacks and swords to plowshares.

Fatal
11-06-2013, 03:30 PM
You can always use stingscourger when playing R splash -anyway I still think any kind of those are much worst then Ashen Rider/Angel of Dispair as an effect, more over Orings have probably same impact and can be used also as normal removal vs problematic permanents (for example cursed totem).

buloid
11-06-2013, 10:31 PM
15 life doesn't kill you, gives you another turn to find any answers you may have to emmy, even if it's just karakas it can make a difference. Running other fliers means you have other chump-blockers too (scryb ranger, bop, linvala, mindcensor, etc.). Especially as mindcensor and scryb ranger have flash and you can bait them to swing with emrakul. It's more value against liliana decks imo.

Assuming you have any other creatures to beat face, finding 1-2 chump blockers or karakas should let you live through the emmy swings and swing back for the win - barring another threat.


Not only Karakas and chumps, but you have time to dig or fetch for a Maze of Ith (rendering Emrakul just a scary blocker), or a Yavimaya Hollow, preventing Emmy from attacking altogether.

Anyone ventured to try out a one or two-of TRADEWIND RIDER as a surprise nostalgia creature? looks really well positioned these days considering it can't die to decay, it doesnt die to one bolt, and it can block and put a softlock on an opponent by returning the one land per turn (or two if you have a scryb out), or by returning the permanent they tapped out to that turn. Its shenanigans fit right into the other tricks Maverick does.


That and it was my deck some years back before quitting and coming back to the game. was my favorite creature since then hehe.

blackdiamonds
11-07-2013, 08:50 AM
So how do we beat true name?

Arsenal
11-07-2013, 08:58 AM
Out aggro it? Maverick can often times present board states where it'll be disadvantageous for them to swing in with their 3/1 dude and they can't always count on it as defense when a lethal KotR is swinging w/ Mom protection.

oSeabass
11-07-2013, 09:34 AM
So how do we beat true name?

If you are running a black splash you can try Golgari Charm. That worked for me last night against TNN. You have to be cautious not to run out creatures like Mom or Hierarch, but if you are running the black splash you might be using more DRS, which will survive the Golgari Charm turn.

Charm is also very useful in the board for a lot of other matchups; Elves, Goblins, Enchantments that are bugging you, etc.

jonnnny
11-07-2013, 11:45 AM
So how do we beat true name?

I played vs Esper Deathblade with TNN yesterday and it wasn't a problem g2 and g3. I sided in a 1-of engineering plague with enlightened tutors and named Rogue (shardless agent is also a Rogue, although esper doesn't run it of course). Like others said, you can also race it pretty easily. Problem comes when they manage to throw a batterskull on the TNN so it does attacking and blocking duty with 14 point life swings.

As for golgari charm, I think zealous persecution is more useful since it doesn't kill your creatures and can sometimes blow out a Toxic Deluge if they didn't pay enough life. Enchantment removal should be sufficiently covered by abrupt decay and qasali pridemage in dark maverick and regeneration doesn't seem to be too relevant when there aren't that many wraths in the format.

As for merfolk running TNN with lord anthems... I have no idea.

ironclad8690
11-07-2013, 11:56 AM
Not only Karakas and chumps, but you have time to dig or fetch for a Maze of Ith (rendering Emrakul just a scary blocker), or a Yavimaya Hollow, preventing Emmy from attacking altogether.

Anyone ventured to try out a one or two-of TRADEWIND RIDER as a surprise nostalgia creature? looks really well positioned these days considering it can't die to decay, it doesnt die to one bolt, and it can block and put a softlock on an opponent by returning the one land per turn (or two if you have a scryb out), or by returning the permanent they tapped out to that turn. Its shenanigans fit right into the other tricks Maverick does.


That and it was my deck some years back before quitting and coming back to the game. was my favorite creature since then hehe.

I always see this guy on TCDecks, and he seems to do pretty well with this random deck. Honestly it feels a bit more like survival than maverick:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9511&iddeck=69412

Luklinda
11-07-2013, 04:23 PM
I always see this guy on TCDecks, and he seems to do pretty well with this random deck. Honestly it feels a bit more like survival than maverick:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9511&iddeck=69412

15 lands, no basics, no wasteland and FoW :eek:

Tradwind Rider just seems..... bad? 4 mana. blue dude that needs two untapped creatures to do anything... I'd rather have Linvala any day of the week, especially Tuesday. Unless your meta is flooded with reanimator and show and tell decks; in which case gilded drake is pretty much always a better card.

Birthing pod looks like it would be an auto-include in a toolbox.dec build, honestly shocked to see it missing.

Morte
11-07-2013, 04:41 PM
I can understand your astonishment - this is Most! A very wierd deck, it seems to make no sense on paper. I think it's played only in Italy and only by very few people, if not just by its creator, since it's extremely difficult to pilot. Anyway, in the hands of a good pilot it's very strong, as you can see by its results on TCDecks.

Here's a link to the Italian thread of Most on Tipo1:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27255

buloid
11-07-2013, 06:39 PM
zealous persecutions works too

mishima_kazuya
11-07-2013, 08:32 PM
zealous persecutions works too


This card looks absolutely bananas for GP Washington DC. Strongly considering playing EsperBlade or Dark Maverick just so that I can get full value out of Zealous Persecution.

ThediscoPower
11-07-2013, 09:11 PM
Out aggro it? Maverick can often times present board states where it'll be disadvantageous for them to swing in with their 3/1 dude and they can't always count on it as defense when a lethal KotR is swinging w/ Mom protection.

Exactly what I saw this week playing against an esperblade list with true name maindeck. Many situations where he would have a true name in play, but i would have a safekeeper/mom with knight or ooze/pridemage, or a mix of those, so in most of those games swinging with true name would mean taking an insane amount of damage on the backswing. So all in all, it was playing out almost the same as the old esperblade matchup, and it would become harder post side as they would side in more removal. The only thing that would tip the balance towards him was a jitte equiped on the fish, or any sort of sword. however, to make a concession to that situation, I included abrupt decay again in my 75 in order to have more ways to kill a jitte or a sword, while still having some versatility. Now, I am looking to see if I want them maindeck or if I leave them in the sideboard. If the GP ends up being as infested by TNN as BoM Paris seemed to be, then I think decay will definitely be maindecked, probably along a sword of fire and ice.

buloid
11-08-2013, 05:26 AM
I can understand your astonishment - this is Most! A very wierd deck, it seems to make no sense on paper. I think it's played only in Italy and only by very few people, if not just by its creator, since it's extremely difficult to pilot. Anyway, in the hands of a good pilot it's very strong, as you can see by its results on TCDecks.

Here's a link to the Italian thread of Most on Tipo1:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=27255

This is an updated build of a very old deck, one that's very close to my heart. ATS - Angry Tradewind Survival, or its earlier iteration: 5CG (5 color green) or 5 Color Flagpole which evolved into RecSur - Recurring Nightmare/Survival of the Fittest. This deck relied on Survival of the Fittest fetching Squee to get a practically unlimited way to fetch the effect that you need the most when you need it.

The old build had birds to turbo out a T2 Survival of the Fittest with one G available to fetch squee on your opponent's T2. This meant that you could now go for whatever hatebear or toolbox creature you needed at that time because Squee would just return to your hand each upkeep, ready to be discarded again.

This deck now runs Fauna Shaman to cover the Survival, which admittedly is much more vulnerable, but that's why mother of runes is an autoinclude. It slowed the original engine down, but the principle is still there.

This deck now goes over the top with GSZ as an additional fetch method, and Murkfiend Liege to abuse Tradewind Rider. A typical mainphase would mean you returning an opponent's permanent with Tradewind and two of your weenies, return a forest via quirion ranger to untap Tradewind Rider, return another permanent with it. On your opponent's untap step, Murkfiend Liege triggers, untapping all your creatures, and you can proceed to return one (or two) permanents with Tradewind Rider. Take note that Tradewind returns any permanent, even planeswalkers.

It's a difficult deck to play against because it will simply Negate or FoW a spell it can't play around. If it plays a creature without haste, it's fine because Tradewind can block it or just return it. If your deck has 4cc sweepers, there's always Gaddock and Glen Elendra to defend. Got a spell that will kill the deck? Meddling Mage is there. Playing Show and Tell? There's Merieke and Peacekeeper.

Tradewind recurrs any ETB abilities that your creatures can have too. If your Glen Elendra has a persist counter, just return it and cast it as a fresh creature.

My old build gained card advantage using the Stampeeding Wildebeests (yes, the 5/4 trampler) that combo'd with Wall of Blossoms so i gained a card each turn and put the opponent on a 3-4 turn clock.

It's a fun deck to play and will surprise any opponent. The key here is to kill the Fauna Shaman, the main part of the engine.

buloid
11-08-2013, 05:29 AM
oh i missed another interaction.

Merieke Ri Berit destroys the creature it controls once you untap it. Meaning you can gain control of any creature by tapping it, using Quirion Ranger to untap Merieke, thus destroying the first creature. Then tap again to gain control of another creature, use Scryb Ranger to untap.

Or just wait til next turn when everything gets untapped by Murkfiend :p

And yes, Merieke can gain control of Emrakul.

nicoleptik
11-08-2013, 06:20 AM
This card looks absolutely bananas for GP Washington DC. Strongly considering playing EsperBlade or Dark Maverick just so that I can get full value out of Zealous Persecution.
I ended 13th at BOM with a dark Mav. B was just for DRS activations (4 in the main), a decay and 2 zealous P in the board

yuMi-
11-08-2013, 08:09 AM
I ended 13th at BOM with a dark Mav. B was just for DRS activations (4 in the main), a decay and 2 zealous P in the board

Could you share your list?

ironclad8690
11-08-2013, 12:02 PM
I ended 13th at BOM with a dark Mav. B was just for DRS activations (4 in the main), a decay and 2 zealous P in the board

A tournament report would be awesome if you are willing ;) It has been a good week for maverick and these big tournaments have renewed my vigor to remain steadfast with Maverick.

nicoleptik
11-08-2013, 12:35 PM
A tournament report would be awesome if you are willing ;) It has been a good week for maverick and these big tournaments have renewed my vigor to remain steadfast with Maverick.

I have made one but in french. No time to translate it, sorry. You could find my list here
http://deckstats.net/decks/319/44148-maverock-bom

Luklinda
11-08-2013, 02:14 PM
I have made one but in french. No time to translate it, sorry. You could find my list here
http://deckstats.net/decks/319/44148-maverock-bom

Link to french report?

blackdiamonds
11-08-2013, 02:30 PM
This is my list for DC anyone have any suggestions? I have two open slots in my board

2forest
1 plains
4 waste
4 Heath
1 cradle
1 canopy
1 karakas*
4 savannah
1 maze
1 cavern
1 arbor
2 misty
1 sylvan*
4 stp
4 gsz
1 jitte
1 batter skull*
1 sword of F/I*
1 elspeth
4 noble
4 KOTR
4 mom
2 ooZe
1 scryb
1 safekeeper
2 sfm
1 safekeeper*
1 sigarda
2 pridemage
3 Thalia

2 oring
2 canonist*
2 tutor
1 path*
1 revoker
1 manriki
1 rip
1 crypt*
1 cage
1 Stone silence
2 free slots

Richard Cheese
11-08-2013, 03:05 PM
This is an updated build of a very old deck, one that's very close to my heart. ATS - Angry Tradewind Survival, or its earlier iteration: 5CG (5 color green) or 5 Color Flagpole which evolved into RecSur - Recurring Nightmare/Survival of the Fittest. This deck relied on Survival of the Fittest fetching Squee to get a practically unlimited way to fetch the effect that you need the most when you need it.

The old build had birds to turbo out a T2 Survival of the Fittest with one G available to fetch squee on your opponent's T2. This meant that you could now go for whatever hatebear or toolbox creature you needed at that time because Squee would just return to your hand each upkeep, ready to be discarded again.

This deck now runs Fauna Shaman to cover the Survival, which admittedly is much more vulnerable, but that's why mother of runes is an autoinclude. It slowed the original engine down, but the principle is still there.

This deck now goes over the top with GSZ as an additional fetch method, and Murkfiend Liege to abuse Tradewind Rider. A typical mainphase would mean you returning an opponent's permanent with Tradewind and two of your weenies, return a forest via quirion ranger to untap Tradewind Rider, return another permanent with it. On your opponent's untap step, Murkfiend Liege triggers, untapping all your creatures, and you can proceed to return one (or two) permanents with Tradewind Rider. Take note that Tradewind returns any permanent, even planeswalkers.

It's a difficult deck to play against because it will simply Negate or FoW a spell it can't play around. If it plays a creature without haste, it's fine because Tradewind can block it or just return it. If your deck has 4cc sweepers, there's always Gaddock and Glen Elendra to defend. Got a spell that will kill the deck? Meddling Mage is there. Playing Show and Tell? There's Merieke and Peacekeeper.

Tradewind recurrs any ETB abilities that your creatures can have too. If your Glen Elendra has a persist counter, just return it and cast it as a fresh creature.

My old build gained card advantage using the Stampeeding Wildebeests (yes, the 5/4 trampler) that combo'd with Wall of Blossoms so i gained a card each turn and put the opponent on a 3-4 turn clock.

It's a fun deck to play and will surprise any opponent. The key here is to kill the Fauna Shaman, the main part of the engine.

This deck sounds hilariously fun. 15 lands seems nuts, but I guess you have 8 mana dorks. It also seems like Prophet of Kruphix might be slightly better than Murkfiend with all the ETB effects available. Damnit now you've got me all interested and I'm trying not to spend money on cards right now!

Fatal
11-08-2013, 04:29 PM
@nicoleptik decklist


I ended 13th at BOM with a dark Mav. B was just for DRS activations (4 in the main), a decay and 2 zealous P in the board


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Plains

//SB

2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rest in Peace
1 Dueling Grounds
2 Pithing Needle


Interesting choose about sb - what was the reason to pick up sphere of resistance instead of thorn of amethyst ?

haganbmj
11-08-2013, 06:22 PM
This is my list for DC anyone have any suggestions? I have two open slots in my board

*List*

I'm liking the looks of this list, the 4 Mom + Safekeeper is where you want to be right now I think if you're on a Stoneforge package.
Sideboard seems solid, I might run another Path to Exile. I'd be curious to know what your sideboard plan is regarding Stony Silence and Manriki-Gusari.

Stony Silence is a personal favorite of mine against petal/mox/led based combo decks.
Manriki-Gusari is sweet against Stoneblade and D&T, but do you also bring in Stony Silence and/or Enlightened Tutor for either matchup?

Koby
11-08-2013, 07:17 PM
I'm liking the looks of this list, the 4 Mom + Safekeeper is where you want to be right now I think if you're on a Stoneforge package.
Sideboard seems solid, I might run another Path to Exile. I'd be curious to know what your sideboard plan is regarding Stony Silence and Manriki-Gusari.

Stony Silence is a personal favorite of mine against petal/mox/led based combo decks.
Manriki-Gusari is sweet against Stoneblade and D&T, but do you also bring in Stony Silence and/or Enlightened Tutor for either matchup?

I would rather play Tower of the Magistrate than Manriki-Gusari. It being another mana source is helpful against Tempo decks (and particularly UWR Delver) while still nixing equipment strategies. Bonus points for being fetchable via KotR via GSZ (or Crop Rotation); and for being useful against Affinity or MUD.

I too favor the Path to Exile in the sideboard as additional spot removal. I would also supplement it with Zealous Persecution against D&T, Elves, and Goblins for decks utilizing black mana splashes.

blackdiamonds
11-08-2013, 09:47 PM
I'm liking the looks of this list, the 4 Mom + Safekeeper is where you want to be right now I think if you're on a Stoneforge package.
Sideboard seems solid, I might run another Path to Exile. I'd be curious to know what your sideboard plan is regarding Stony Silence and Manriki-Gusari.

Stony Silence is a personal favorite of mine against petal/mox/led based combo decks.
Manriki-Gusari is sweet against Stoneblade and D&T, but do you also bring in Stony Silence and/or Enlightened Tutor for either matchup?

Vs dnt I bring in revoker over Stoney because I just want to name vial n manriki vs the equipment. Stoney vs artifact mana decks n obvi artifact decks. I need another slot any idea on maybe a single geddon?

blackdiamonds
11-08-2013, 09:55 PM
Between my open SB slots I was thinking lay line of sanctity, ghostly prison, dueling grounds, dragon claw,armageddon,thrinasphere,Aven mind censor,mindbreak trap, harmonic sliver, Garruck relentless. Never tested but master of the wild hunt.

Barook
11-08-2013, 10:37 PM
Master of the Wild Hunt is pretty great against BUG Shardless since they struggle to remove it. It's pretty shitty against anything running Bolts, though.

What's our plan to deal with True-Name Nemesis? SFM + SoFaI like the D&T guys are planning to do?

Why aren't we running Mirran Crusader, though? He's part of the reason why D&T performs way better against BUG Shardless than we do. In a GW build with lots of Exalted triggers, Elspeth and equipment, he should be an excellent threat. We can run a split with KotR (which can be still tutored for via GSZ) - while she has great utility factor, she isn't that hot as a beater if your opponent has DRS or RIP.

I'm currently toying with the idea of making such a GW build. Maybe I'm even trying out Mayor of Avabruck - a GSZ-able Human Lord that can shit out 3/3 tokens when transformed. If I do that, I'm also going to throw in Garruk Relentless and Master of the Wild Hunt for added shenanigans.

nicoleptik
11-09-2013, 11:10 AM
Link to french report?
First day here: http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=11126&st=165 on the middle of the page, second day some pages later.

nicoleptik
11-09-2013, 11:13 AM
This is my list for DC anyone have any suggestions? i will never attend a tournament with Maverick and no Choke in the board. Won me three games alone at the BOM.

nicoleptik
11-09-2013, 11:18 AM
what was the reason to pick up sphere of resistance instead of thorn of amethyst ?
Sphere was here cause I wanted another card which could be usefull in the elves MU and vs Storm to. I would rather play another Gaddock or a lonely Mindbreak trap.

Maëlig
11-10-2013, 12:25 PM
What's our plan vs the new Toxic Deluge? Seems like it would be a beating.

Manipulato
11-10-2013, 01:05 PM
oh i missed another interaction.

Merieke Ri Berit destroys the creature it controls once you untap it. Meaning you can gain control of any creature by tapping it, using Quirion Ranger to untap Merieke, thus destroying the first creature. Then tap again to gain control of another creature, use Scryb Ranger to untap.

Or just wait til next turn when everything gets untapped by Murkfiend :p

And yes, Merieke can gain control of Emrakul.

Hi,
can it be that we played against each other at the Super Sunday Legacy event at GP Florence in 2010? I played Jund Aggro Loam and you were playing 5c Survival and I lost 2 times :-) First time in the finals of a Sideevent and second in the Mainevent Round 6...
First I thought what kind of random shit but then got blasted by stasis and merieke
:eek::eek:
Looks strange but it is soooo teched!

For example: I had double crusher (7/7 8/8 or so) and he took control of both with Merieke and crushed me with that:eek: Cant remember anymore how exactly it worked but it worked.
In a other game I had double crusher + Goyf in beatdown mode and he ruined my day with stasis + Quirion Ranger + Noble Hierarch:eek:
I couldnt believe at the first moment that stasis were legacy legal because its soo powerful and nobody played it:laugh:
I take my hat of Mr. Survival! Only guy I lost to this weekend in legacy!



Greetings

Barook
11-10-2013, 01:45 PM
What's our plan vs the new Toxic Deluge?
Die like a bitch since Teeg can't stop it - or pack Lifeforce in your sideboard.

bumgun
11-11-2013, 06:35 AM
-I have considered Master before in my 75, but I don't know if he really deserves a spot. I haven't tested with him enough.

-Sigarda in the main deck seems good against Show and Tell based decks, but how often do you have it in hand against the fast Show and Tells (turn 3 ish)? It not really feasible to rush it out with a GSZ of even hard cast it, because by the time you do Emrakul should have already attacked for the game and wipe the board. I don't know how I feel about the Sigarda main... it is 1 card to beat Show and Tell main deck, and you NEED to have it in hand for it to be relevant.

-Fire and Ice is solid, and I really like having it in the 75. It is my maindeck sword of choice for now to go along with Jitte. I opt to leave Batterskull in the board. In race matches where I am fighting down a hoard of tribal things, Jitte normally does the trick for cheaper and sometimes you can even drop it and play it the same turn you find it with a late game SFM. I have found the only real way to get Batterskull down is with SFM (who either eats removal, or the Batterskull gets Durressed out), or having a large board and Cradle.

-I know older lists ran Garruk as another removal spell in a pinch. Have you brought him in as removal (if so against what decks), or have you used him as a token machine (again, which decks)? I haven't played with him yet, so I am not sure of his place in the list.

-I really like the 3/2 split on Deathrites and Nobles. In a 3 color deck I feel 5 mana dorks is just right. A 4/1 split doesn't make sense, seeing as how the Exalted is a really nice bonus and Noble works on an empty graveyard or against decks not running fetches to fuel YOUR shaman (don't shrink Knight if we don't have to).

-Master is a pretty big beating against Shardless BUG which was very popular both locally and nationally during the past few months. Even then I'd still consider it replaceable if a better SB option presents itself.

-I almost consider it's benefit against other midrange decks to be a much greater reason to have it in the MB. With 5 mana dorks and Cradle it's easy to have the mana required to fetch her via GSZ. Having a haymaker to GSZ for is very comforting for me at least.

-Depending on what I take out of the SB, I'm considering trying to put a SoFaI and Zealous Persecution in there to hedge a little against TNN. Also a 3rd Persecution obviously helps against Elves, mirror match, D&T, and even combo decks on the Empty plan.

-Like Master, Garruk is pretty good against midrange decks that feature cards like Baleful Strix, DRS, and Dark Confidant. Can't be made bolt-proof by mom but taking eating one of their vital creatures then them having to throw a bolt at it isn't the worst thing in the world.

-Yep, that's the exact reasoning I use anytime I'm thinking of switching up the 3/2 split now. No other configuration feels right.


Master of the Wild Hunt is pretty great against BUG Shardless since they struggle to remove it. It's pretty shitty against anything running Bolts, though.

What's our plan to deal with True-Name Nemesis? SFM + SoFaI like the D&T guys are planning to do?

Master doesn't seem too bad against Jund. Aren't most lists only running 2 bolts now?

As far as TNN goes, I'm thinking about putting Elspeth back in the MB which I took out after making the jump to the black splash. Also putting either a 3rd Zealous Persecution, 1 Engineered Plague, or 1 SoFaI in the SB. SoFaI is more reliable against TNN specifically due to SFM but the other 2 are better in different matchups.

Maëlig
11-11-2013, 03:27 PM
Die like a bitch since Teeg can't stop it - or pack Lifeforce in your sideboard.

Now that is some sweet old school tech. Almost makes me want to go back to an enlightened tutor sideboard.

haganbmj
11-11-2013, 05:12 PM
This is what I'm currently at for the GP in DC this coming weekend.
Currently I'm debating if I want a fifth mana guy in the mainboard, if I want a fourth discard spell, and if I want to find space for a Zealous Persecution in the sideboard. I always expect to face a number of tribal decks at larger events (played against 3 goblins and fish last scg open), so between that and TNN I wouldn't mind finding the space. I actually wouldn't mind trying out an Engineered Plague in that slot either, maybe I'll try testing that at Legacy tomorrow evening.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Mother of Runes
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

blackdiamonds
11-11-2013, 07:40 PM
I feel like maverick could win the gp

Anfylion
11-12-2013, 04:18 PM
Does anyone continued testing with ESG?

I really gave good results, I never regretted to have her in hand ... what worries me now is the TNN, what answers we have in straight G / W??

ironclad8690
11-12-2013, 06:52 PM
This is what I'm currently at for the GP in DC this coming weekend.
Currently I'm debating if I want a fifth mana guy in the mainboard, if I want a fourth discard spell, and if I want to find space for a Zealous Persecution in the sideboard. I always expect to face a number of tribal decks at larger events (played against 3 goblins and fish last scg open), so between that and TNN I wouldn't mind finding the space. I actually wouldn't mind trying out an Engineered Plague in that slot either, maybe I'll try testing that at Legacy tomorrow evening.

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Mother of Runes
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Choke
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

My dark maverick build is very close to yours. I would recommend cutting the abrupt decay and sword of light and shadow from your board for 2 zealous persecution. SoLaS is good against the same decks that Zealous is, and the 3rd abrupt decay might be overkill. That being said your deck looks solid, and of course you can do as you'd like.

haganbmj
11-12-2013, 10:41 PM
My dark maverick build is very close to yours. I would recommend cutting the abrupt decay and sword of light and shadow from your board for 2 zealous persecution. SoLaS is good against the same decks that Zealous is, and the 3rd abrupt decay might be overkill. That being said your deck looks solid, and of course you can do as you'd like.

I could get behind cutting the Decay and the Sword - both seem like reasonable excludes once I have access to Persecution.
I'm trying to figure out just how exactly my board shapes up in most of the common matchups, but I think running two Zealous Persecution is something I could get behind.

buloid
11-13-2013, 02:01 AM
My dark maverick build is very close to yours. I would recommend cutting the abrupt decay and sword of light and shadow from your board for 2 zealous persecution. SoLaS is good against the same decks that Zealous is, and the 3rd abrupt decay might be overkill. That being said your deck looks solid, and of course you can do as you'd like.

good luck!

your deck looks solid, very similar to a build i took in a tournament recently. i may have asked this before, but i'm just interested in your justification.. why 3 moms and 1 safekeeper instead of 4 moms?

did you consider Batterskull in the board? why or why not? is it because you don't have Gaeas cradle that you decided against it?

why no >4cc bombs such as Thrun, Sigarda or Master of the Wild Hunt?

i agree with zealous persecution. the tournament i joined still didn't have True Name legal in legacy, but the persecution did a lot of work against the mirror and esperblade.

and for the crop rotation, is it only vs rug that you'll board this in?

my thoughts for your consideration

-1 ooze main, -1 safekeeper main, +2 mirran crusader.
+1 ooze board, -1 crop rotation



Thanks!

nicoleptik
11-13-2013, 03:54 AM
good luck!
[...] but the persecution did a lot of work against the mirror and esperblade[...]

And Elves. And D&T. And Grixi...
Persecution is a must have right now, and an incentive to splash black by itself.

bumgun
11-13-2013, 07:02 AM
So this is basically what I'll be taking to the GP. Am I going too heavy on the 4+ drop haymakers? Thinking of cutting Garruk for a Sword of Fire and Ice since it seems like TNN is going to still be all over the place this weekend. Plus Garruk almost never truly shines unlike Sigarda vs Jund, jumping KOTR with Elspeth, or Master vs BUG. Besides that I'm very happy with my current list and feel confidant going into the weekend.

Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Sigarda
1x Dryad Arbor

Equip:
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands:
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Cradle

Sideboard:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

buloid
11-13-2013, 07:36 AM
So this is basically what I'll be taking to the GP. Am I going too heavy on the 4+ drop haymakers? Thinking of cutting Garruk for a Sword of Fire and Ice since it seems like TNN is going to still be all over the place this weekend. Plus Garruk almost never truly shines unlike Sigarda vs Jund, jumping KOTR with Elspeth, or Master vs BUG. Besides that I'm very happy with my current list and feel confidant going into the weekend.

Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Sigarda
1x Dryad Arbor

Equip:
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands:
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Cradle

Sideboard:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze


This looks like a very different build from what you initially put, making the deck more top heavy. I hate to see the day when i draw 3-4 4cc guys in my opening hand x.x But i do understand where youre coming from based on the decks you are anticipating to face.

I suggest you take off Elspeth since you're not playing Mirran.
Mainboard the SOFaI and put Batterskull in the Board. This is more of a meta call because of TNN, which is probably why you took off Maze of Ith too.

just my two cents, but your list looks solid nonetheless.

nicoleptik
11-13-2013, 08:29 AM
So this is basically what I'll be taking to the GP. Am I going too heavy on the 4+ drop haymakers? Thinking of cutting Garruk for a Sword of Fire and Ice since it seems like TNN is going to still be all over the place this weekend. Plus Garruk almost never truly shines unlike Sigarda vs Jund, jumping KOTR with Elspeth, or Master vs BUG. Besides that I'm very happy with my current list and feel confidant going into the weekend.

Creatures:
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
4x Mother of Runes
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Sigarda
1x Dryad Arbor

Equip:
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands:
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Cradle

Sideboard:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Thoughtseize
1x Engineered Plague
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze

My 2 cents on your list, which matches my tastes a lot:
- I would switch the Abrupt Decay main for the pridemage in the board, as the equipments will be prevalent (on TNN) next weeks and being able to search for an answer is priceless. Decay is more usefull in a tempo metagame
- Safekeeper is not impactfull enough to be a SB card. If you want to play it, put it in the main for a Mother
- As I said previously, I will never attend a big tournament without Choke in my board. Same goes for O Ring, which is mandatory to have a chance vs S&T decks. Discard is not where you want to be in these MU, as the endless stream of cantrips on their side decrease a lot the efficiency of your Discard Spells.
- What is your boarding plan vs Miracles? I would dedicate one/two SB sloat to improve the MU (in my SB i got two Pithing needles to shut down top/Jace)

Good luck for the GP

nicoleptik
11-13-2013, 08:34 AM
[...]I suggest you take off Elspeth since you're not playing Mirran. [...]

I wouldn't do that as a huge flying Knight is great vs TNN. The best hope we have when facing TNN is to race it, as we have no MD way to remove it. Flying over and boosting the stats of your creature is a good way to do that.

haganbmj
11-13-2013, 02:00 PM
good luck!

your deck looks solid, very similar to a build i took in a tournament recently. i may have asked this before, but i'm just interested in your justification.. why 3 moms and 1 safekeeper instead of 4 moms?

did you consider Batterskull in the board? why or why not? is it because you don't have Gaeas cradle that you decided against it?

why no >4cc bombs such as Thrun, Sigarda or Master of the Wild Hunt?

i agree with zealous persecution. the tournament i joined still didn't have True Name legal in legacy, but the persecution did a lot of work against the mirror and esperblade.

and for the crop rotation, is it only vs rug that you'll board this in?

my thoughts for your consideration

-1 ooze main, -1 safekeeper main, +2 mirran crusader.
+1 ooze board, -1 crop rotation

Thanks!

I've been playing 3/1 for a while, but I played 4 Moms a few weeks ago, then switched back. I like having Safekeeper as a GSZ target because I find that I often just need a turn or two of protection to stabilize the board. Safekeeper has qasi-haste and is an efficient answer.

I used to run Batterskull mainboard actually - it's a bit worse without Cradle, but certainly manageable. Since I'm on 2 Stoneforge + Black Spells now I opted to drop it. There are plenty of situations where I've wanted to have a Batterskull available to tutor out, but at the moment I'm just not sure that I have the space for it now with the spell count in the deck.

As for Sigarda/Thrun/Master it boils down to not having Cradle in the deck. With deathrites I found my mana weaker as I don't have as many dedicated (and reliable) mana sources as I once did. I'd like to be running a Sigarda, it's certainly a very powerful card that can win matchups on its own, but I neither own a cradle nor do I think I'd be able to run Cradle without cutting back on a spell (probably a Thoughtseize) - there's no way I'd run Cradle over a land. Once I test a bit more with this list I'll probably pick up a Cradle at the LGS and brew with that.

At the moment I'm at 2 Persecution in the board.

Crop Rotation is outdated, and I've had it in far too long, but it's for Dredge, Reanimator, and Sneak/Show (marginal) predominately. It's the next card on the chopping block.

I certainly like Mirran Crusader main - the last time I played Junk I ran three and enjoyed smashing opponents with him. I'll have to see what I can do with the list to squeeze 'em in. I'm not a fan of running fewer Scavenging Oozes - I find him to be important against Goyf and Deathrite decks - and prefer to have the second to increase the changes of naturally drawing one.


The big thing I'm questioning right now is the number of Sylvan Libraries to run. Now that I have 2 Abrupt Decay in the main it's less difficult to find a removal spell, and I might want to cut the Library in order to run some more interesting threats such as Mirran Crusader.

Thanks for your ideas buloid.

buloid
11-14-2013, 03:55 AM
I've been playing 3/1 for a while, but I played 4 Moms a few weeks ago, then switched back. I like having Safekeeper as a GSZ target because I find that I often just need a turn or two of protection to stabilize the board. Safekeeper has qasi-haste and is an efficient answer.

I used to run Batterskull mainboard actually - it's a bit worse without Cradle, but certainly manageable. Since I'm on 2 Stoneforge + Black Spells now I opted to drop it. There are plenty of situations where I've wanted to have a Batterskull available to tutor out, but at the moment I'm just not sure that I have the space for it now with the spell count in the deck.

As for Sigarda/Thrun/Master it boils down to not having Cradle in the deck. With deathrites I found my mana weaker as I don't have as many dedicated (and reliable) mana sources as I once did. I'd like to be running a Sigarda, it's certainly a very powerful card that can win matchups on its own, but I neither own a cradle nor do I think I'd be able to run Cradle without cutting back on a spell (probably a Thoughtseize) - there's no way I'd run Cradle over a land. Once I test a bit more with this list I'll probably pick up a Cradle at the LGS and brew with that.

At the moment I'm at 2 Persecution in the board.

Crop Rotation is outdated, and I've had it in far too long, but it's for Dredge, Reanimator, and Sneak/Show (marginal) predominately. It's the next card on the chopping block.

I certainly like Mirran Crusader main - the last time I played Junk I ran three and enjoyed smashing opponents with him. I'll have to see what I can do with the list to squeeze 'em in. I'm not a fan of running fewer Scavenging Oozes - I find him to be important against Goyf and Deathrite decks - and prefer to have the second to increase the changes of naturally drawing one.


The big thing I'm questioning right now is the number of Sylvan Libraries to run. Now that I have 2 Abrupt Decay in the main it's less difficult to find a removal spell, and I might want to cut the Library in order to run some more interesting threats such as Mirran Crusader.

Thanks for your ideas buloid.

I still swear by 1 Sylvan, but i know of other players who have taken it out totally.

I still keep 1 in my deck at all times.

haganbmj
11-17-2013, 12:19 AM
5-2-1 drop at GP Washington DC. Lost to ANT and RUG Delver, drew against UWb Stoneblade w/ Truename. I'll post a short report later.
Zealous Persecution was fine in the sideboard all day. Definitely liked my list and would play it again. [There were 3 times today when I wished I had Rogue's Passage in my deck - I might try to work that back in, or test out the Dark Depths plan as an alternate]

Loss to ANT was him t1 Ad Nauseum-ing into the win while I sat with Teegles and Thalia in hand. Game two he just had the nuts 4 rituals + led to beat my Thalia + Wasteland on his t3. Definitely think the matchup was fine and my keeps were fine.

Luklinda
11-17-2013, 01:48 AM
5-2-1 drop at GP Washington DC. Lost to ANT and RUG Delver, drew against UWb Stoneblade w/ Truename. I'll post a short report later.
Zealous Persecution was fine in the sideboard all day. Definitely liked my list and would play it again. [There were 3 times today when I wished I had Rogue's Passage in my deck - I might try to work that back in, or test out the Dark Depths plan as an alternate]

Loss to ANT was him t1 Ad Nauseum-ing into the win while I sat with Teegles and Thalia in hand. Game two he just had the nuts 4 rituals + led to beat my Thalia + Wasteland on his t3. Definitely think the matchup was fine and my keeps were fine.

Sorry to hear that. Rogue's Passage seems infinitely bad. A colorless land that's only useful with 5 mana and creatures in play just doesn't seem relevant at all. There are significantly better options for giving the deck reach - namely equipment and MOM to provide color protection or running creatures with evasion built in.

Megadeus
11-17-2013, 02:46 AM
I've seen it win games. It's (kind of) legit

buloid
11-17-2013, 03:25 AM
I've been toying around with the idea of Rogue's passage, but could never whole-heartedly commit it to the deck. One big consideration is what land to cut, and it boils down to Horizon Canopy, Maze of Ith or your Depths Stage combo.

While it is a card that will win games via a hexproof and equipped Sigarda or a Knight, it's role for me is only capitalized on if the game goes on a stalemate.

Pans-Advocate
11-17-2013, 09:29 PM
6-3 to miss day 2 at GP DC with Vial Maverick (similar to door's Ovinogeddon list), punted g3 of round 9 spectacularly (missing an on board kill) and absolutely should have made it to day 2. I'll post a full report and a list in a bit.

The box summary: 2-1 vs Grixis Delver, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Fish, 2-1 vs Punishing Loam, 0-2 vs Deathblade (w/Nemesis), 1-2 vs Loam Pox, 2-0 vs ANT, 2-1 vs Junk, 1-2 vs Elves. Only actual punt was the last game of the day, but I was punted to in multiple games and got very lucky in a couple more. I absolutely should have made day 2. The deck felt extremely solid and I felt as if I only lost to poor play and variance, rather than poorly building the deck or playing the wrong strategy. A couple rounds were more or less gifted to me by opponents drawing or playing terribly, but overall I think the deck performed quite well.

EDIT

Here's the list:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation

4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of Souls

SB:
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Cataclysm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Crop Rotation
3 Ethersworn Canonist


The list is tweaked from door's list. I didn't like Safekeeper as much, added a second Stoneforge, and switched out Garruk for Elspeth. I also preferred Canonist to Mindbreak Trap in the board, and splashed for Zealous Persecution in anticipation of TNN and Elves.

Round 1 I played against Grixis Delver, and I absolutely should not have won the match, but my opponent was hoping to burn me out in game 1 and so aimed Bolts at my head instead of killing a dude in response to me equipping Sword of Fire and Ice. As it turned out, I also had Jitte, so when he put me to 3 with a flipped Delver in play and a Bolt in hand, I just slammed Jitte onto my Sword-equipped guy and put myself way out of reach. Game two he beat me pretty easily due to me having no good options and playing into his disruption and removal, but game 3 I curved Mom into Thalia and he fumbled a play with Stifle (forgetting the Thalia tax) that let me Wasteland him off the mana he needed to do anything relevant. Time was called and he graciously conceded to me on turn 1 of extra turns rather than maybe force the draw.

Round 2 I played against UW Miracles (the Karakas/Clique/Venser version with no Helm) and I got lucky enough to resolve an early Vial in game 1 and then draw my singleton Teeg. Vialing Teeg in response to a Terminus miracle trigger blew him out, and while he kept up a good fight with flash dudes and spot removal, I kept Karakas + Vial open to protect Teeg at all times and he eventually got beat down. In game 2 I curved Wayfarer into Thalia, then cast a turn 3 Revoker, against his board of Top, 2 basics, and a fetch. In response to Revoker he flipped Top (without looking first!), and something told me I should name Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of blanking Top ... he fetched and shuffled his Top away in order to play a Clique at the end of my turn, bottomed his own Pithing Needle with Clique, untapped, attacked and passed. I figured I had probably hit with Revoker if he had no play, so when I untapped and played Cradle to power out a Sword of Fire and Ice and equip it, I equipped to Thalia instead of Revoker. He Plowed Thalia in response, I got in for 3, he untapped, drew for his turn, and scooped, showing me a hand of 3x Jace and 2 land. Leveled! I think a better and more careful/conservative Miracles player would have destroyed me in this game, but I'll take it.

In round 3 I played against Fish. He opened with Island, Cursecatcher, followed by Wasteland, Standstill. I had a bunch of lands in my hand (including a Wasteland for potential Mutavaults) so I was totally fine with just hitting land drops for the next 5 turns while taking 1 a turn. Turned out he had no lands and ended up discarding a few times. When I ran out of land drops I just started casting multiple spells a turn, building a massive board presence very quickly and ending the game in two swings of a Jitte/SoFI-equipped Knight, and paying no attention whatsoever to the multiple True-Name Nemesis he had finally started to deploy. Game 2 I had a Cavern in my opening hand, so I got to resolve Knights on turns 3 and 4. He got a few fish out and had attacked for the first time with a 4/2 Nemesis when I EOT tutored for Marit Lage and killed him. This match was not close. A good player would have mulled his G1 hand for certain and it would have maybe been a real game, but I don't think he had a chance in G2.

Round 4 I played against Punishing Loam. I got brutalized in G1, when my opening of Vial -> Vial, 1-drop, 1-drop was reduced to 0 permanents by a maindeck Ancient Grudge and a Devastating Dreams for 2. I watched him dredge for a few turns with no permanents in play to see what he was doing and then scooped. G2 he opened on Mox Diamond -> Thoughtseize -> Cabal Therapy, ripping a Knight and a Sylvan Library out of my hand, but the card he left me was Phyrexian Revoker and it turned out he got screwed out of the next several turns of the game by Revoker naming Mox Diamond. I found a Vial and a Cataclysm before he could get a threat online and then started ripping sick 2-drops and he died. In game 3 it came down to a Knight battle, but his Bojuka Bog was sitting useless in his sideboard (a severe oversight, given that he had seen Knight in my hand the previous game) and mine was not, and he misplayed a Liliana allowing me to attack her to death, so my bigger Knights prevailed. This guy was a better player than he acted in this round, and he knew that the match was entirely his to lose, but he rallied and I think he went pretty deep into day 2 and almost cashed.

Round 5 I played against Esper Deathblade and it was not a close match, I got thoroughly outdrawn. My opponent found 3x Deathrite and 2x Stoneforge Mystic in the first 4 turns of G1, and while I almost stabilized with Revoker on Jitte and Mom/Scryb to prevent profitable attacks, his 4th Deathrite off the top did the final points. In game 2 he had Swords to Plowshares for my turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Revoker, AND turn 3 Knight, and when he played a True-Name and equipped it with a Jitte, I had one out: draw the Marit Lage combo. I actually did draw both halves of it, but by that point he needed to literally have 3 complete blanks in hand and 2 more on top in order for me to successfully race him, and as it turned out he had a Wasteland and I was just very dead. I think the matchup against this deck is winnable, and if I had drawn as well as he did it would've been a competitive game, but I just didn't and he executed his plan well. This player ended in top 64.

Round 6 I played against Loam Pox. He did what Pox does in game 1 and I scooped to him Loaming back a Tabernacle and a Wasteland while I had 1 or 2 permanents at most and no cards in hand. In game 2 I had a strong series of draws and managed to Vial in a Knight right as he ran out of resources, which by that point was a 2-turn clock due to the number of my lands he had killed. He missed on Innocent Blood and it got there. In game 3 we whittled each other down until I had a Vial on 2 and he had a Liliana on 1 counter. I felt pretty good about this game state, but I drew 4 lands on my next 5 draw steps and ended up dying to Cursed Scroll and Mishra's Factory. I might've been able to cut down on his clock by Wastelanding his Factory instead of his Bayou (I was more scared of Loam than I was of the top of my deck being no action at all) but I'm pretty sure I just lost to variance on this one.

Round 7 was basically a gift, I played against ANT and ripped perfect after keeping a terrible hand in G1, putting a topdeck Teeg in play on turn 4 (he had stalled on mana after his first turn) and effectively ending the game on the spot. In game 2 I played Revokers on LED and Petal, but he went off with Ad Nauseum on my third end step, from 18 life, and hit 12 cantrips, 2 land, 1 Empty the Warrens, and 1 Cabal Ritual ... in other words, nothing at all. He untapped, Brainstormed twice looking for the nuts (he did not find it), and conceded. Magic is a skill game sometimes.

Round 8 I played against a removal-heavy Junk/Rock deck, packing Goyfs, Stoneforges, Sinkholes, Vindicates, Decays, Bobs, Deathrites ... just a lot of 1-for-1s and attrition engines. However, I nutted him in game 1 with Vial -> Mom + Vial in Mom -> Vial in Stoneforge, play Cradle, play and equip Jitte, give protection to Mom, attack (active Jitte on turn 3 on the play is a big game). Jitte killed his Bob, he didn't have a Decay for it when he untapped, and then I put a Revoker into play naming his 2x Deathrite and he scooped. In game 2 he just played a ton of removal spells and beat me down, more or less exactly his game plan. In game 3 he killed a ton of my lands with Sinkholes and Wastes, but I had drawn the combo. He had one chance to kill Stage and went for my only colored source instead. Then I stalled for time until I could combo off and he died to a Marit Lage. He didn't understand the Stage/Depths interaction, so a judge was called, but when it was explained he told me that he was happy that this, of all ways, was how his tournament ended, and that he had had a great time at his first GP, and we shook hands on a good match.

Round 9 I played against Elves and cursed my luck. I died badly in game 1 like my deck always will, getting Hoofed out of the game on turn 4 without having applied any significant pressure. In game 2 I had 2x Canonist and Teeg out by turn 4, and that was that. Then I opened the perfect hand in game 3: 2x Zealous Persecution with mana to cast both, a Mom, and a Revoker. I killed his first wave of Elves and found a Canonist. At this point the game was in a state where his only out was to Natural Order for Progenitus, and we both knew it. I think we both knew that I still had a Persecution left in my hand. If at any point I had cast Persecution pre-combat and swung with my team of Birds, 2x Mom, Revoker, and Canonist (or even just my bears), I would've successfully raced Progenitus. But I was thinking about Persecution as a Plague Wind rather than a Glorious Anthem, and when he untapped on the turn he was going to cast Natural Order, he prompted me on his upkeep and I panicked and fired off the Persecution. He fetched a Dryad Arbor, made Progenitus, and proceeded to win at 2 life. There were 3 consecutive turns when I could have won easily by Persecuting pre-combat, and my opponent basically Jedi Mind Tricked me into casting it at the one point in the game when it would not do the damage I needed it to, and my easy on-board kill fell short. Looking back over the day, I can't find any other play mistakes that decisively lost me games ... all the other games I lost, I was pretty much strictly outdrawn rather than outmaneuvered. But when it mattered, I choked and punted spectacularly.

Thoughts on the list: I think I would not play Elspeth again, given the choice. In fact I don't think I would play a 4-drop at all. I would rather have Qasali Pridemage in the deck, ideally as a 2x (but all the other cards performed well so I'm not sure what I'd cut for the 2nd). I think that aside from that, though, the list is strong enough to be competitive in most fields. I got lucky in a couple of my rounds and unlucky in a couple others, and I outplayed my opponents more than they outplayed me, so the virtual 7-2 (since the win in round 9 was readily, obviously available to me) makes me at least feel good about the list and want to stick with the plan.

ironclad8690
11-17-2013, 10:24 PM
How are you guys reacting to true name nemesis? I am playing GWb now (even though punishing fire was awesome at SCG LA) and I am playing SoFaI and Zealous Persecution out of the sideboard.

dcosiem
11-18-2013, 12:07 AM
How are you guys reacting to true name nemesis? I am playing GWb now (even though punishing fire was awesome at SCG LA) and I am playing SoFaI and Zealous Persecution out of the sideboard.

He's usually an issue g1. Most likely, you probably lose to him if one is out. They deny the aggro route of finishing the off the opponent. Zealous Persecution is a good idea. I didn't think of this. But, I think Engineered Plague is a better idea since it's a permanent spell, which is what i use to deal with him.

Pans-Advocate
11-18-2013, 12:26 AM
Maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice is strong enough against True-Name that I think it gives you a real chance at G1. The old no-Mystic/2-Jitte package is much weaker with Nemesis in the field (although Scryb Ranger flying over to activate Jitte and race is still a real plan if you can protect it). So I think Stoneforge + SoFI is going to be standard for a while, and I think it's a good way to fight TNN.

Zealous Persecution is real and I personally splashed it as the only black in my list at the GP. It is not ideal since it doesn't do anything once their Jitte is active, or a Lord is out, or Nemesis gets a toughness boost in any other way at all, but it's strong enough in general that I think it's worth playing. Plague might be better, although it is significantly worse against several of the matchups where Persecution shines (D&T and the mirror for example)

Personally I think going completely over the top with Marit Lage is the most powerful way to fight TNN decks, but you often need a lot of time to maneuver into a game state where you can reliably pull it off, so it's not totally consistent. I think the opportunity cost of running the combo is low enough to make it a good option though.

ironclad8690
11-18-2013, 12:58 AM
Maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice is strong enough against True-Name that I think it gives you a real chance at G1. The old no-Mystic/2-Jitte package is much weaker with Nemesis in the field (although Scryb Ranger flying over to activate Jitte and race is still a real plan if you can protect it). So I think Stoneforge + SoFI is going to be standard for a while, and I think it's a good way to fight TNN.

Zealous Persecution is real and I personally splashed it as the only black in my list at the GP. It is not ideal since it doesn't do anything once their Jitte is active, or a Lord is out, or Nemesis gets a toughness boost in any other way at all, but it's strong enough in general that I think it's worth playing. Plague might be better, although it is significantly worse against several of the matchups where Persecution shines (D&T and the mirror for example)

Personally I think going completely over the top with Marit Lage is the most powerful way to fight TNN decks, but you often need a lot of time to maneuver into a game state where you can reliably pull it off, so it's not totally consistent. I think the opportunity cost of running the combo is low enough to make it a good option though.

There have been a number of people who have done pretty well with the depths/stage combo (door, Fabian Goerzgen, Jacob Lindy), and it can still come out of left field at EOT if you have knight/scryb ranger. I think I am going to try running that for a while, in addition to a 2 x stoneforge Jitte/SoFaI combo.

door
11-18-2013, 04:27 AM
6-3 to miss day 2 at GP DC with Vial Maverick (similar to door's Ovinogeddon list), punted g3 of round 9 spectacularly (missing an on board kill) and absolutely should have made it to day 2. I'll post a full report and a list in a bit.


Thanks for the detailed report. Too bad, you missed day 2 while struggling through some difficult matchups. There are no obvious decisions in this build and the more you play with the deck, the better it performs. So next time you will have a better result.

I would still recommend to run Garruk, it really shines against Jund and Shardless BUG, which are tough matchups.

Also respect for killing ANT without Mindbreak traps =)

Barook
11-18-2013, 06:46 AM
Maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice is strong enough against True-Name that I think it gives you a real chance at G1. The old no-Mystic/2-Jitte package is much weaker with Nemesis in the field (although Scryb Ranger flying over to activate Jitte and race is still a real plan if you can protect it). So I think Stoneforge + SoFI is going to be standard for a while, and I think it's a good way to fight TNN.

Zealous Persecution is real and I personally splashed it as the only black in my list at the GP. It is not ideal since it doesn't do anything once their Jitte is active, or a Lord is out, or Nemesis gets a toughness boost in any other way at all, but it's strong enough in general that I think it's worth playing. Plague might be better, although it is significantly worse against several of the matchups where Persecution shines (D&T and the mirror for example)

Personally I think going completely over the top with Marit Lage is the most powerful way to fight TNN decks, but you often need a lot of time to maneuver into a game state where you can reliably pull it off, so it's not totally consistent. I think the opportunity cost of running the combo is low enough to make it a good option though.
I haven't played against TNN yet, mainly due time issues and MODO being a clusterfuck, but wouldn't E-Plague in a E-Tutor board work against Nemesis, too?

I'm also suprised that nobody discusses Humility which the recent Bant lists of Reid Duke and Sam Black ran. Once resolved, it prevents Elves from doing anything broken, makes Sneak & Show's threats into jokes and also stops TNN, as witnessed in the quarterfinals.

DD combo sounds like a plan, considering Maze of Ith kinda sucks in a TNN meta.

In a 3-color build like Dark Maverick, access to Engineered Explosives sounds like a plan, too.

Pans-Advocate
11-18-2013, 10:52 AM
If I ran Humility I would absolutely also be running Lingering Souls. I wouldn't trust my treat density to be able to beat a deck like Elves otherwise.

Fatal
11-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Glimpse of Nature + Cradle can be your nail in the coffin under humility - I'm not sure that it is good option, I found that Gaddock works also very well - they have to draw Craterhoof natural which isn't too common, It also stops destroying Jitte by GSZ an answer, along your creatures are still good enough vs army of 1/1s.

Note: Humility cost 4 mana - which mean you can be already dead.

nedleeds
11-18-2013, 11:34 AM
Humility is awful in deck with creatures that do things and are big. You are really reaching if that's your solution for something in a deck that revolves around men with power and toughness and utility abilities. it's also 4. 5 probably if you are doing anything productive. For every win it sacks you into it's a cinder block in 10 other games. If you're terrified of Sneak Attack play Blind Obedience for christ's sake. Or man who is root maze for their dudes.

ironclad8690
11-18-2013, 12:26 PM
Ensnaring bridge is actually pretty sick as well, considering we can still attack under it with noble hierarch. It helps me vs sneak/elves the most. In fact, much of the sideboard tech from maverick's early years are becoming pretty good again.

test1985
11-19-2013, 12:37 PM
Aside from threatening to race with a big knight of the reliquary and fliers, any other ideas on how to beat true-name nemesis with the GW build? Thanks!

Koby
11-19-2013, 12:50 PM
Aside from threatening to race with a big knight of the reliquary and fliers, any other ideas on how to beat true-name nemesis with the GW build? Thanks!

Sword of Fire & Ice + <Rhox War Monk> seems to do the trick. Replace the RWM with any lifelink beater or Batterskull if you can't fathom how to fit in :g::w::u: into the deck.

ironclad8690
11-19-2013, 01:43 PM
Sword of Fire & Ice + <Rhox War Monk> seems to do the trick. Replace the RWM with any lifelink beater or Batterskull if you can't fathom how to fit in :g::w::u: into the deck.

If you splash blue to fight TNN (oh the irony) Rafiq actually seems like he would be pretty sick. If you're going to race, may as well race very quickly. Also he gets cast off of Cavern which is always a plus.

If you don't splash bant, Terravore still connects despite TNN's protection, and seems pretty decent in general right now. I would like to see some Terrageddon decks come back.

ironclad8690
11-19-2013, 07:31 PM
I playtested a couple games vs true bant, true patriot, and true blade with the fauna/retainers/elesh norn combo, and it was not actually that bad. Very few of these decks play any real grave hate, and Deathrite shaman should be one of the first STP targets anyways (for Maverick in general). Also, the dark depths combo is good, but many of these new TNN decks are playing a high jace count, so don't walk into that with your Marit Lage.

buloid
11-19-2013, 11:11 PM
i like your Terrageddon suggestion, ironclad8690. much like ATS, erhnamgeddon has always been one of my few pet decks.

Naya Punishing Mav with Terravores is a nice mix, given that DRS based decks can be picked off by Punishing Fire.

just don't know how it'll go against combo though.

Luklinda
11-20-2013, 08:57 AM
If you splash blue to fight TNN (oh the irony) Rafiq actually seems like he would be pretty sick. If you're going to race, may as well race very quickly. Also he gets cast off of Cavern which is always a plus.

If you don't splash bant, Terravore still connects despite TNN's protection, and seems pretty decent in general right now. I would like to see some Terrageddon decks come back.

4 Noble Hierarchs
4 Green Sun's Zenith

in a typical build. Doesn't seem like if you splash blue syndrome. Maverick already runs blue... Rafiq is just a meh card. Go all in on exalted plan, sure hope no one runs instant speed removal and chumps. If you're looking to race quickly, play Natural Order and grab a craterhoof behemoth. 4 mana green cards should be winning you the game.

Provost
11-20-2013, 02:56 PM
Hello everyone, longtime lurker who finally has something to contribute to the thread.

I was playing Junk Maverick at GP DC and i managed to day 2 at 7-2. I went on to lose my win and in for the money, but ended at 10-5 on the tournament, which i was happy with for my first legacy tournament. This is the list i was playing:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas


Some thoughts about the deck:

I managed to dodge all unfair decks through 15 rounds of play, which i guess is pretty fortunate. I was 3-2 vs rug delver, 1-0 vs uwr delver, 0-1 vs ur delver, 1-0 vs stoneblade, 1-0 vs punishing jund, 1-0 vs merfolk, 1-1 vs elves, 1-0 vs meathooks, 1-0 vs death and taxes, and 0-1 vs miracles. Therefore, i can't speak to the combo matchup for junk maverick, though i suspect it is better due to thoughtseize.

Sigarda main was thoroughly unnecessary. I cast her exactly once (against death and taxes) and she came out against just about everything. Similarly, Gaea's Cradle ended up being more of a hindrance than a help. Against the many delver decks i lost a bunch of games to mana screw with a cradle unable to tap for anything. Splash hate for TNN has led to millions more golgari charms and the like making a return, meaning mother of runes is far less useful than ever before, and deathrite shamans are far better than nobles. Additionally, having access to engineered plague and persecution out the board to fight the TNN was very powerful. Dryad arbor has been getting on my nerves more and more. He just is so terrible in your hand, or to have submerged, or to have die to charms. I'm not sure if the t1 GSZ ramp plan or fetching to blank a sacrifice effect is really worth the slot.

Huge props to the Dark Depths/ Thespian Stage combo. I really don't understand why any KOTR deck would not play this easily slotted combo finish. Maze of Ith is at an all time uselessness. Marit Lage allows you to race just about anything: i beat Meathooks (usually extremely bad matchup) just by making a turn 4 20/20. It also makes KOTR a must-kill even if your opponent is playing significant graveyard hate. Suddenly maverick feels like a combo deck, and your opponent has to play around it. I naturally drew the combo under a standstill one game for the complete blowout. Scryb Ranger is especially insane for powering knight into searching up the combo in a single turn.

Takeaways: KOTR and GSZ are still very powerful options and tools in the legacy world, and all of my wins seem to have come from KOTR. I think the main configuration of durdly little hate bears might require some serious examination in the future. I think i would cut down on them significantly for things like SoFI, Liliana, and more lands instead of mana dorks. Perhaps the deck needs to add more Junk elements to be competitive.

ironclad8690
11-20-2013, 05:19 PM
Hello everyone, longtime lurker who finally has something to contribute to the thread.

I was playing Junk Maverick at GP DC and i managed to day 2 at 7-2. I went on to lose my win and in for the money, but ended at 10-5 on the tournament, which i was happy with for my first legacy tournament. This is the list i was playing:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas


Some thoughts about the deck:

I managed to dodge all unfair decks through 15 rounds of play, which i guess is pretty fortunate. I was 3-2 vs rug delver, 1-0 vs uwr delver, 0-1 vs ur delver, 1-0 vs stoneblade, 1-0 vs punishing jund, 1-0 vs merfolk, 1-1 vs elves, 1-0 vs meathooks, 1-0 vs death and taxes, and 0-1 vs miracles. Therefore, i can't speak to the combo matchup for junk maverick, though i suspect it is better due to thoughtseize.

Sigarda main was thoroughly unnecessary. I cast her exactly once (against death and taxes) and she came out against just about everything. Similarly, Gaea's Cradle ended up being more of a hindrance than a help. Against the many delver decks i lost a bunch of games to mana screw with a cradle unable to tap for anything. Splash hate for TNN has led to millions more golgari charms and the like making a return, meaning mother of runes is far less useful than ever before, and deathrite shamans are far better than nobles. Additionally, having access to engineered plague and persecution out the board to fight the TNN was very powerful. Dryad arbor has been getting on my nerves more and more. He just is so terrible in your hand, or to have submerged, or to have die to charms. I'm not sure if the t1 GSZ ramp plan or fetching to blank a sacrifice effect is really worth the slot.

Huge props to the Dark Depths/ Thespian Stage combo. I really don't understand why any KOTR deck would not play this easily slotted combo finish. Maze of Ith is at an all time uselessness. Marit Lage allows you to race just about anything: i beat Meathooks (usually extremely bad matchup) just by making a turn 4 20/20. It also makes KOTR a must-kill even if your opponent is playing significant graveyard hate. Suddenly maverick feels like a combo deck, and your opponent has to play around it. I naturally drew the combo under a standstill one game for the complete blowout. Scryb Ranger is especially insane for powering knight into searching up the combo in a single turn.

Takeaways: KOTR and GSZ are still very powerful options and tools in the legacy world, and all of my wins seem to have come from KOTR. I think the main configuration of durdly little hate bears might require some serious examination in the future. I think i would cut down on them significantly for things like SoFI, Liliana, and more lands instead of mana dorks. Perhaps the deck needs to add more Junk elements to be competitive.

Very nice report/analysis!

I was experimenting with a GWB build that cut all of the X/1 (some might not even consider it maverick anymore), eliminating the splash hate from decks running -X/-X effects. In fact I was running my own golgari charms.

Claymore
11-20-2013, 07:56 PM
I think my friend and I talked to you after one of your day 2 matches, thanks for the write up! What was your side board?

wizard_of_gore
11-22-2013, 10:51 AM
Guys, i'm searching for appropriate answer against TNN with straight GW version? is holy light (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Holy+Light) good enough ? it could take care of snapcasters, clilques, confidants, strixes etc too.

what are you thinking about wing shards ? btw., would be return to Natural order maverick (for straight GW version) good choice ? Still, 10/10 in 3rd turn is far more frightening than 3/1...

Luklinda
11-22-2013, 11:51 AM
Guys, i'm searching for appropriate answer against TNN with straight GW version? is holy light (http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Holy+Light) good enough ? it could take care of snapcasters, clilques, confidants, strixes etc too.

what are you thinking about wing shards ? btw., would be return to Natural order maverick (for straight GW version) good choice ? Still, 10/10 in 3rd turn is far more frightening than 3/1...

Race it? KotR is bigger, exalted beats are bigger, equipped guys are bigger, etc. Mom and creatures with flying gets you past any blockers too... If you're worried about equipment - isn't that what pridemage is in the deck for?

NO is certainly a viable choice still, but Proggy isn't the best target for NO in the current meta. IMO ruric thar, the unbowed, craterhoof behemoth and worldspine wurm are better targets to pick from.

wizard_of_gore
11-22-2013, 12:45 PM
Race it? KotR is bigger, exalted beats are bigger, equipped guys are bigger, etc. Mom and creatures with flying gets you past any blockers too... If you're worried about equipment - isn't that what pridemage is in the deck for?

NO is certainly a viable choice still, but Proggy isn't the best target for NO in the current meta. IMO ruric thar, the unbowed, craterhoof behemoth and worldspine wurm are better targets to pick from.

wouldnt be empyrial archangel better choice for NO target against TNN decks ?

Luklinda
11-22-2013, 04:32 PM
wouldnt be empyrial archangel better choice for NO target against TNN decks ?

Yea, she'd work as well, and is a viable choice if you see burn decks too. From my experience with NO - not having a blue shell (pre-MM banning) to protect your "combo" makes it significantly more risky to rush into - especially in a format with Liliana of the Veil now floating around. The advantage of running with craterhoof behemoth is that plumping him down with 3 other creatures in play lets you swing with at least 21 trample damage, plus your critters base damage. It gives maverick the flourish of a combo finish once you've played through 3-5 turns. It's still a faster clock than True-Name Nemesis and doesn't care if they're holding him back to block - nor give them turns to find an answer/kill your fatty.

Megadeus
11-22-2013, 04:39 PM
Just do like D&T and play sword of FAI

wizard_of_gore
11-22-2013, 05:02 PM
Just do like D&T and play sword of FAI

sofai is offensive card, and i need defensive mechanism against TNNs ;)

btw., about racing with nemesis
Lets be realistic, TNN is played in control/midrange decks with lots of control elements, and if you are already racing with them, you are already in win position. But, good control players won't allow that, its going to sound weird - we need to control game. Honestly, deep in heart, maverick is "control" deck with many tools against control. Natural state of game against those decks is that control decks must interact with our proactive answers and we must put pressure, but now its different. Now WE must find answer for uninteractive stupid creature. Racing is not the option. Maybe one of the options, but not that relevant - because overextending against control is not the smartest idea. Nemesis can't be stoped with thalia, teeg, mother of runes, maze of ith, stp, jitte, qasali, canonist, mindcensor, etc... and that is problem. Of corse, you can put pressure, but i need specific card against TNN, like empyrial archangel, or holy light. So i want more suggestions :D

Maëlig
11-23-2013, 06:02 AM
Holy light actually seems like a pretty decent card to fight TNN in the straight GW version. It is only marginally worse than zealous persecution and can also help in the (very difficult) elves MU. Will try it out.
Surprised to see not all GWb versions run bob, wouldn't it be one of the main reasons to splash?

Arsenal
11-23-2013, 06:59 AM
Celestial Flare was used by the SCG Dallas UW Stoneblade winner and also by another SCG Dallas top 16 UW Stoneblade list, presumably to combat opposing TNNs. That has potential as a maindeck answer to not only TNN, but other nonsense like Mongoose, Geist (although TNN has replaced him for the most part) or Mother of Runes-protected creatures.

Provost
11-25-2013, 11:37 AM
I think my friend and I talked to you after one of your day 2 matches, thanks for the write up! What was your side board?

Haha I think i remember you guys, one of you was on death and taxes, correct?

My SB was:

1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Abrubt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

Zealous persecution is really, really good when it is good, and an excellent way to combat TNN.

I think the best way to beat TNN for maverick is to be proactive. We get a lot bigger than 3/1. GWb has so many more answers to TNN than GW, but i faced decks packing celestial flare to answer TNN and that seems to be the best/most efficient answer.

Pans-Advocate
11-26-2013, 11:39 PM
Marit Lage did an excellent job of beating TNN for me in DC. TNN can be relied upon so much as an evasive creature that Blade decks aren't running Lingering Souls anymore, and Fish never played fliers in the first place. A 20/20 flying is usually good enough, and if it isn't, you're probably gaining 20 life from a Plow and winning the race that way. Roll with a set of Knights and a Crop Rotation or two and the combo is surprisingly easy to assemble. Just be sure to sacrifice down to 0 Forests so you don't get Submerged.

maktus
11-27-2013, 06:54 AM
What do you think about tidehollow sculler in place of thalia in GWb mav? He doens't increase the mana of our noncreature spells and exiles a threat.

JanoschEausH
11-27-2013, 07:47 AM
What do you think about tidehollow sculler in place of thalia in GWb mav? He doens't increase the mana of our noncreature spells and exiles a threat.

I think this would weaken the Combo-Matchup. Tidehollow Skuller would be Discard 3-6, but to fight combo appropriately it's necessary to split your hate. Most combo decks can recover easily from discard but have problems with persisting hate in form of hatebears. Also, most storm decks are dead against a Thalia G1.

Luklinda
11-27-2013, 08:35 AM
What do you think about tidehollow sculler in place of thalia in GWb mav? He doens't increase the mana of our noncreature spells and exiles a threat.

He exiles a removal spell if they have any. He's less offensive and doesn't punish cantripping/non-removal spells. Thalia is a lot better.

Sporty824
11-27-2013, 06:20 PM
I have been thinking about getting into legacy and was hoping to start with maverick. This is the list I am currently working on. Any feedback is appreciated.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fire
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Winswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Pyroclasm
3 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Choke
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elspeth, Knigh-Errant
1 Bojuka Bog
The Gaddock Teeg is against combo and the like. The Rhox War Monk is for the aggro matchups such as goblins and burn. The Sigarda is there against anything I think has sac effects for Marit Lage. The Pyroclasms are also for anything with a buch of small creatures, D&T and goblins. The Goglari Charms are enchantment hate as well as my solution to TNN. The Pithing Needle is against planeswalkers(Jace, Liliana, etc.). The additional Thalia is against combo and control. The choke is against anything blue. The life from the loam is a way to get card advantage against control and tempo as well as my way of dealing with land destruction. The Ashen Rider comes in against Show and Tell. The Elspeth is against control. The Bojuka Bog is GY hate. The SB is the least worked on part. Again, any help is appreciated.

ph88
11-27-2013, 06:42 PM
I have been thinking about getting into legacy and was hoping to start with maverick. This is the list I am currently working on. Any feedback is appreciated....

glad to see you join the mav ranks!

some suggestions. first of all, your creature count is simply too low. you've got too many utility spells without enough actual guys to beat-down with. also, 8 mana dorks (deathrite has other uses, but is primarily a mana dork) is also, simply, too many. 4 is the standard number to run, but i wouldn't fault anyone for running between 3 and 6, depending of course on what else is in their lists. since you're trying to play 4-color, i would recommend having at least one birds of paradise in there as a GSZ target, because it is the only way you can consistently make any color. birds also carry equipment like a boss. speaking of which, your choice of only one SOLAS seems subpar. for most metagames, 1x jitte and 1x batterskull is, i would say, the standard equipment package. of course, if you don't run stoneforge, batterskull gets a helluva lot worse. thus, not knowing your metagame, i would recommend 1x jitte if you are going to only run one piece of equipment. if you wanted to run 2, 1x jitte and 1x sword of x and y (or possibly just 2x jitte) is probably the way to go.

as far as your lands are concerned, the depths/stage combo isn't fantastic without weathered wayfarer or crop rotation. using two knight activations to tutor up the combo is really slow, when you should just be beating down with gigantic knights instead, or using your knights to waste-lock your opponent. horizon canopy is also a very unusual choice outside of straight GW builds or wayfarer builds.

in summary, you've got a lot of different packages/ideas going on in your deck, many of which are very strong. however, i would try to give the deck more focus. that is, i'd recommend you pick two of the following packages and build the rest of the deck around those:

1) punishing groves combo
2) stoneforge/equipment package
3) stage/depths
4) aether vial / wayfarer

most commonly you will see packages 1 and 2 together, which gives you the standard "punishing mav" list, or you will see 3 and 4 together, which gives you the "vial mav" list (although it's not uncommon to see 2, 3 and 4 together as well in a vial mav build).

hope that helps. enjoy the mav!

maktus
11-28-2013, 08:41 AM
I was thinking of a good answer for show and tell variants and I would like your opinion about Parallax Wave. If the opponent uses SnT and you put it into play, it will be useful even with a grisel, emrakul, omniscience or sneak attack, although only give you some time.

buloid
11-28-2013, 09:02 AM
i'd rather go for Sigarda with Maze of Ith, KOTR to fetch Karakas or good old Oblivion Ring for SnT decks.

While Parallax Wave can be played on its own, its 4cc is what makes me think twice. Though it can't be Abrupt Decay-ed, it will die anyway due to the fading. I find it a win-more card since you'll most likely exile everything to get an alpha strike in, but at that point your board presence will lead you to win a few turns later anyway.

my 2 cents

buloid
11-28-2013, 09:25 AM
glad to see you join the mav ranks!

some suggestions. first of all, your creature count is simply too low. you've got too many utility spells without enough actual guys to beat-down with. also, 8 mana dorks (deathrite has other uses, but is primarily a mana dork) is also, simply, too many. 4 is the standard number to run, but i wouldn't fault anyone for running between 3 and 6, depending of course on what else is in their lists. since you're trying to play 4-color, i would recommend having at least one birds of paradise in there as a GSZ target, because it is the only way you can consistently make any color. birds also carry equipment like a boss. speaking of which, your choice of only one SOLAS seems subpar. for most metagames, 1x jitte and 1x batterskull is, i would say, the standard equipment package. of course, if you don't run stoneforge, batterskull gets a helluva lot worse. thus, not knowing your metagame, i would recommend 1x jitte if you are going to only run one piece of equipment. if you wanted to run 2, 1x jitte and 1x sword of x and y (or possibly just 2x jitte) is probably the way to go.

as far as your lands are concerned, the depths/stage combo isn't fantastic without weathered wayfarer or crop rotation. using two knight activations to tutor up the combo is really slow, when you should just be beating down with gigantic knights instead, or using your knights to waste-lock your opponent. horizon canopy is also a very unusual choice outside of straight GW builds or wayfarer builds.

in summary, you've got a lot of different packages/ideas going on in your deck, many of which are very strong. however, i would try to give the deck more focus. that is, i'd recommend you pick two of the following packages and build the rest of the deck around those:

1) punishing groves combo
2) stoneforge/equipment package
3) stage/depths
4) aether vial / wayfarer

most commonly you will see packages 1 and 2 together, which gives you the standard "punishing mav" list, or you will see 3 and 4 together, which gives you the "vial mav" list (although it's not uncommon to see 2, 3 and 4 together as well in a vial mav build).

hope that helps. enjoy the mav!

Great response and i totally agree.

WHat you're doing to your deck is spreading out all the wincons too thinly to the point that you don't know what line to take in your turns. Further, 4cc Mav, while benefiting from all these lines, has a very greedy manabase, and most decks running Wastelands will know what land of yours to kill or anticipate (ie, holding wasteland in hand and waiting for you to play a Bayou or a Grove or a Taiga to know what Mav variant you're playing) your most valuable land.

I have played a similar variant in the past with 4CC Cascade Mav (with Bloodbraids, Punishing and Deathrites) to some playtest success (played two bloodbraids over two succeeding turns both cascading into KOTR), and you'll find that after your first Deathrite, any succeeding ones run you out of land-gas in graveyards very quickly, and you'll even run into scenarios where you'll exile a land using one Deathrite only to fuel the B or G ability of your second deathrite. All in the context of running KOTRs main too :(

Anyway, my observations on your proposed deck:

a.) Golgari charm when you have 8 1/1s is a bad idea, unless you plan to use the regen everything route which rarely happens -- Pernicious Deed, Supreme Verdict scenarios only. Infest and Terminus laugh at that charm. Why not play Zealous Persecution instead?

b.) I'm getting why you play SOLAS instead of Batterskull as your creature count is low. But remember, SOLAS vs a live Deathrite Shaman is useless.

c.) 1 Ooze, 1 Pridemage, no Gaddock, no Canonists - combo will kill you as you only have 2 maindeck discards and 2 Thalia main and 1 side.

d.) While Ashen Rider is cute, i'd just go with Karakas or Oblivion Ring

e.) Unless you're considering playing Absolute Law, Pyroclasm -- one of the banes of the deck -- appears twice in your side x.x

f.) Given that your creature count is low, Thalia is working to your disadvantage. Thalia shines because you can curve out in the following turns while your opponent struggles to keep up.

g.) Umezawa's Jitte. Play it. It's Maverick's way of proving that fair decks win games.

i agree with ph88's suggestion of picking 2 lines and going with the deck. And I suggest going the blade package first since you're running Thalia. She taxes the swords when you choose to play them instead of being able to cheat them in with SFM.

Mav is a difficult deck to play, and since you're just going to start Legacy playing with it, I suggest you stick to a basic Naya or Junk or even straight GW maverick then test out which one you're most comfortable with.

Once you get the hang of it and the common decision lines and trees you'll make when you play, you can tinker with the pieces and tailor fit them to your meta or your preferences because the deck is flexible. ie, Thrun vs Sigarda? SOFAI vs SOFAF? 2 Jitte or 1 Jitte, 1 skull and 1 Sword of x and y? To play Abrupt Decay main or board? play 6 fetches or 7 fetches?

The tweaks go on and on, which is why i love playing the deck

maktus
11-28-2013, 09:49 AM
i'd rather go for Sigarda with Maze of Ith, KOTR to fetch Karakas or good old Oblivion Ring for SnT decks.

While Parallax Wave can be played on its own, its 4cc is what makes me think twice. Though it can't be Abrupt Decay-ed, it will die anyway due to the fading. I find it a win-more card since you'll most likely exile everything to get an alpha strike in, but at that point your board presence will lead you to win a few turns later anyway.

my 2 cents

Thanks for the feedback! About the options you listed out, these are my thoughts:

sigarda + maze = good answer, but needs 2 cards to be efficient and the big guy remains in play.

karakas = versatile asnwer against show and tell, but if the opponent plays a omniscience or sneak attack with two red manas remaining it's useless.

Oblivion ring = good versatile answer that I'm using. The problem is if the opponent puts an grisel and pay 7 life or sneak attack and activate his ability in response to exile. Parallax allows you to use more than once.

About the problem of fading you're right, but maybe parallax + karakas in G2 could be effective.

Sporty824
11-28-2013, 12:44 PM
Thank you ph88 and buloid. I made some changes and this is what I came to.
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Weathered Wayfarer

1 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
4 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knigh-Errant
1 Ethersword Canonist
1 Life from the Loam
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Oblibion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Zealous Persecution
From what I know about my local meta, it includes a few pox players, a lot of delver(both rug and uwr), a few maverick players, and some esper blade. Not a whole lot of combo. I realized SoFaI fits better as a sword. I dropped the punishing fire package. I also took out the bojuka bog from the sideboard because of the deathrites and scavenging ooze main. I took ph88's advice and swapped the golgari charm for zealous persecution. I also upped the creature count a little. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

Asthereal
11-28-2013, 12:46 PM
In your meta you really want the full set of Mother of Runes. :wink:

ironclad8690
12-04-2013, 11:58 AM
Does anyone know what criteria TCDecks uses to identify a deck as "Maverick" vs "The Rock"?

Or is it just set by the user/submitter of decklists?

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12287&iddeck=90076

There are actually quite a few "Dark Maverick" decks that are classified as "The Rock". You can find them by searching the archetype "The Rock" for decks that have Mother of Runes in the maindeck.

Sporty824
12-04-2013, 11:44 PM
Does anyone know what criteria TCDecks uses to identify a deck as "Maverick" vs "The Rock"?

Or is it just set by the user/submitter of decklists?

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12287&iddeck=90076

There are actually quite a few "Dark Maverick" decks that are classified as "The Rock". You can find them by searching the archetype "The Rock" for decks that have Mother of Runes in the maindeck.

Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe the difference is that "The Rock" focuses more on removal and will be more black than white, if white at all, and "Maverick" is more creature based and focuses more on white than black, if black at all. Obviously not all rock decks run white and not all maverick decks run black so this is another way to distinguish them. I hope this answers your question.

Megadeus
12-05-2013, 12:48 AM
Borrowed Haganbmj's deck for the local tonight. First time playing Maverick, though I have been interested in it. It was very solid, and felt much better than the Big Zoo deck that I played for a couple months. I somehow beat lands on him not drawing loam and Bojuka Bogging a full graveyard. But Goddamn fucking TNN from Merfolk slaughtered me. Twice. Same guy once in the top 8. Good lord this card is horrid. Game 1 I have Teeg with a SoFaI and 2 Hierarchs for exalted. He derps in a TNN, then plays 2 Phantasmal Image copying it. Fucking christ. Every single game it was bash me to ~10 with Lords, I remove them, then die to uninteractive 3/1.

Stuhl
12-05-2013, 06:46 AM
Hi huys! I'm new to Maverick. Just start building the deck. What do you in general think about Dark Confidant? As I'm owning a playset at the moment and really like that card I would like to play Bobs. Can you imagine a GWb Maverick with 3 Bobs instead of Thalia? Thalia is in SB then and goes in against RUG/Combo, whatever.
I also like the Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo. But most Maverick decks do not include this one. Do you like the combo? Is it worth the 2 slots?

Would like it to hear some comments from experienced Maverick players!

ironclad8690
12-05-2013, 12:15 PM
Hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe the difference is that "The Rock" focuses more on removal and will be more black than white, if white at all, and "Maverick" is more creature based and focuses more on white than black, if black at all. Obviously not all rock decks run white and not all maverick decks run black so this is another way to distinguish them. I hope this answers your question.

I guess there is a fine line between the two. I noticed that on tc decks all of the decks that look like Maverick but are classified as The Rock (since they do not have a "junk" section) have at least some dark confidants and some discard in the main deck. Perhaps maindeck thoughtseizes are where they draw the line.


Borrowed Haganbmj's deck for the local tonight. First time playing Maverick, though I have been interested in it. It was very solid, and felt much better than the Big Zoo deck that I played for a couple months. I somehow beat lands on him not drawing loam and Bojuka Bogging a full graveyard. But Goddamn fucking TNN from Merfolk slaughtered me. Twice. Same guy once in the top 8. Good lord this card is horrid. Game 1 I have Teeg with a SoFaI and 2 Hierarchs for exalted. He derps in a TNN, then plays 2 Phantasmal Image copying it. Fucking christ. Every single game it was bash me to ~10 with Lords, I remove them, then die to uninteractive 3/1.

I haven't played that matchup, but I can see how the typical TNN hate would not be quite as effective. Golgari charm and Zealous Persecution don't help much when all their guys are getting +1+1 from a lord or two. Most other TNN decks are raceable (with Patriot being the hardest to beat, then UWb stoneblade, then UW blade, then Team America, then Bant as the least hard to beat). We can beat the slower decks by racing them, but when they put a fast clock on us and follow it up with TNN, it becomes challenging. I am not thrilled at the idea of phantasmal images copying TNN.


Hi huys! I'm new to Maverick. Just start building the deck. What do you in general think about Dark Confidant? As I'm owning a playset at the moment and really like that card I would like to play Bobs. Can you imagine a GWb Maverick with 3 Bobs instead of Thalia? Thalia is in SB then and goes in against RUG/Combo, whatever.
I also like the Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage combo. But most Maverick decks do not include this one. Do you like the combo? Is it worth the 2 slots?

Would like it to hear some comments from experienced Maverick players!

Check out Jacob Lindy's Maverick deck:

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/57407

If you search a couple of pages back you will find a tournament report by him. It is a good one too.

As far as thalia and bob, I think you want both. They sort of accomplish different goals. If you aren't playing thalia, most of the time you will want either more removal, discard, or both; depending on your metagame. I like the Depths stage combo as a way of going over smaller creature based decks (read: TNN), but sometimes there are times/metagames where maze of ith might be better (like a death and taxes heavy meta with a ton of karakas or vs other maverick decks).

Hope this helps!

Claymore
12-05-2013, 12:41 PM
If you want Mom, Thalia, and Bob, then you're getting closer to Deadguy Ale territory, splashing Green for Abrupt Decay or other stuff.

Megadeus
12-05-2013, 01:21 PM
I haven't played that matchup, but I can see how the typical TNN hate would not be quite as effective. Golgari charm and Zealous Persecution don't help much when all their guys are getting +1+1 from a lord or two. Most other TNN decks are raceable (with Patriot being the hardest to beat, then UWb stoneblade, then UW blade, then Team America, then Bant as the least hard to beat). We can beat the slower decks by racing them, but when they put a fast clock on us and follow it up with TNN, it becomes challenging. I am not thrilled at the idea of phantasmal images copying TNN.


Basically this. I can definitely see how prior to the printing of TNN this was a favorable match up. Every game I was able to kill off lords and just make a KOTR or Scooze that was big. But TNN being impossible to deal with was the nail in the coffin. The only thing I could see was getting Jitte instead of SOFAI off of stoneforge, but then the stoneforge would not have been large enough to get through his non TNN men. Idk. It was just frustrating to watch him drop a TNN and suddenly just realize I'm dead.

cartothemax
12-05-2013, 11:22 PM
I have been working on a list to take to a local legacy event coming up this weekend and this is what I have decided on.

Lands - 23
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savanah
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor


Creatures - 20
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage


Spells - 18
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Sideboard - 15
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Abrupt Decay


I am just looking for some feedback on my list. I am pretty nervous about the number of non-creature spells along with Thalia, but it hasn't been an issue in my testing so far. Has anyone had more experience with a more Junk list similar to mine with Thalia included? I expect to face a fair number of Storm decks and Delver Tempo decks (guranteed to face at least one of each.)

Ideally I could fit in Stoneforge + Batterskull, but I am having trouble getting it all in the MB. Moving Thoughtseize to the SB and then bringing in SFM would be one way for sure. Upping the amount of discard and adding more removal was another option, but I felt that would start eating into the utility creatures that I have in the deck plus swinging me further into The Rock. It's a hard balance to strike.

Any suggestions on SB cards that can help hose Delver decks would be gladly taken :)

The customization of Maverick is a great part of the deck, but it has been giving me headaches trying to figure out the list that works best :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance.

klaus
12-06-2013, 04:21 AM
I have been working on a list to take to a local legacy event coming up this weekend and this is what I have decided on.

Lands - 23
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savanah
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor


Creatures - 20
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Qasali Pridemage


Spells - 18
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Sideboard - 15
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Abrupt Decay


I am just looking for some feedback on my list. I am pretty nervous about the number of non-creature spells along with Thalia, but it hasn't been an issue in my testing so far. Has anyone had more experience with a more Junk list similar to mine with Thalia included? I expect to face a fair number of Storm decks and Delver Tempo decks (guranteed to face at least one of each.)

Ideally I could fit in Stoneforge + Batterskull, but I am having trouble getting it all in the MB. Moving Thoughtseize to the SB and then bringing in SFM would be one way for sure. Upping the amount of discard and adding more removal was another option, but I felt that would start eating into the utility creatures that I have in the deck plus swinging me further into The Rock. It's a hard balance to strike.

Any suggestions on SB cards that can help hose Delver decks would be gladly taken :)

The customization of Maverick is a great part of the deck, but it has been giving me headaches trying to figure out the list that works best :rolleyes:

Thanks in advance.

To both reduce the amount of non-creature spells AND fit in SFM + Skull this is what I'd do:
-1 STP (2 Decays make up for just 3 STP)
-1 Sylvan Library (SFM will provide sufficient C/A)
-1 Zenith (does not flow with Thalia and Gaddock)
+2 SFM
+1 Skull

Also I could see Thoughtseizes being replaced by Tidehollow Sculler. Alongside MoR and Safekeeper they are pretty strong. They could replace Canonists in the SB, I guess.
Edit: 3 SFM / 3 Sculler would also be an option of course.

Luklinda
12-06-2013, 10:11 AM
18 non-creature spells MB is pretty heavy with thalia, I wouldn't go more than 15

jonnnny
12-07-2013, 12:36 AM
I would go 2 Thoughtseize and 2 SFM main instead of 4 thoughtseize.

ironclad8690
12-10-2013, 03:40 PM
Some data I'd like to share with everyone:

Maverick Record:

12/9/2013: Dark Maverick (Thalia Version Etutor Board, needed to prep for SCG Vegas so Thalia back in)
Affinity (1-0)
W: 2
L: 1
Punishing Jund (1-1) *
W: 1
L: 2
Pox (2-1)
W:2
L:0
Team America (2-2) *
W: 1
L: 2

Notes: Batterskull was stuck in hand most of the time. Really annoying. Would have rather had jitte/SoFaI/SoFaF. More removal would have helped against my losses, punishing fire may have made huge difference. Missed Depths Stage Combo as well. Finally feeling the pain of losing to true-name in what usually was a great matchup (team america)

12/2/2013: Dark Maverick (Sb: 3 O ring, 2 Choke, 1 SoFaI, 3 Zealous P, 3 Rest in Peace, 3 Ethersworn Canonist)
Zombardment (1-0)
W: 2
L: 0
4 Color Loam: (2-0)
W: 2
L: 0
12-Post (2-1) *
W:0
L: 2
Team America (3-1)
W:2
L: 0

Notes: Lost to primetime. Needed to stop etb trigger or mindcensor him. Got hardcast emrakuled with karakas backup (infinite turns) to lose two games with no wins. Got pithing needled on game 1 for wasteland.

11/25/2013 : 4 Color Maverick
Affinity (1-0)
W: 2
L: 1
Death and Taxes (2-0)
W: 2
L: 0
Esper Deathblade (2-1) *
W: 0
L: 2

Notes: Deathblade just ground me out. g1 lost to lingering souls with a jitte (i had 2 knights and a mom and got blown out by supreme verdict), g2 lost to wasteland + crucible. Missed Thalia in this matchup. Missed LFTL to get back lands

11/18/2013: GWb Dark (no thalia, since no combo/control in meta, instead Stoneforge + MD Abrupt Decay)
Elves (0-1) *
W: 1
L: 2
Team America (1-1)
W: 2
L: 0
Zombardment (1-2) *
W: 0
L: 2

Notes: Beat elves g1 with depths/stage, marit lage making a surprisingly nice blocker for craterhoof. Lost the next two on the count of heritage druid. Zombardment blew up all my guys and perished me in g2 to get rid of all my important stuff. Lost game 1 to 4 lingering souls tokens, sometimes you just can't race that.

uncletiggy
12-11-2013, 12:02 AM
The formatting on that last post makes zero sense the asterixs are not explained and the win loss records do not matchup with the game descriptions very unhelpful jargan

ironclad8690
12-11-2013, 01:44 AM
The formatting on that last post makes zero sense the asterixs are not explained and the win loss records do not matchup with the game descriptions very unhelpful jargan

Here is the legend for my previous post:

Asterisks: Match Losses

Number in Parenthesis: Match record for that particular tournament

W:/L: the number of games won to the number of games lost in that match.

Keenco
12-12-2013, 03:05 PM
Hello all,

Recently I've started playing mtg (again) and this is the first time I'm playing Legacy decks.

I've based my Dark Punishing Maverick deck from the one that was played by Gorzgen Fabian recently.

24 LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest

20 CREATURES
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stongeforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor

13 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

3 OTHER SPELLS
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

15 SIDEBOARD
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
1 Slaughter Games
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives mtg
1 Zealous Presecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Crop Rotation

Some notes and thoughts:
- I threw in SFM, Jitte and SoFnI because my friends are all about TNN lately... I feel SoFnI at least give me a chance to race with my (2) flyers (Go Birds of Paradise!!!). I have access to other swords (SoFnF, SoMnB, SoLnS) and battleskulls as well...
- The reason I'm running Gaddock Teeg on SB is because none of my local play groups play combo deck, I know normally Gaddock Teeg should be MB.
- Of the time I am able to cast Slaughter Games, I really like it as it cannot be countered.


My concerns
- Am I trying to squeeze too much into a deck? If so, what should I really trim... Honestly I'm open for idea.
- Because this is a 4 color deck... so many duals and very little basic. I am very worry about Bloodmoon (which one of my friend is running I believe).
- It looks like ANY graveyard hate will screw this deck to the ground, any thing can we can do about it?
- SB Bojuka Bog or Tormod's Crypt, or do I even need these at all?
- Sejiri Steppe, any good?
- I feel like my SB is a mess, any constructive advice is appreciated.

haganbmj
12-12-2013, 06:10 PM
Played in a very small local event last night with no real valuable information coming from it.
Dark Maverick - same build I've been running. List Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27078-Grand-Prix-DC-Missing-Day-2-with-GWb-Maverick)
This is a bit of worthless information.

Round 1 v Bant Untouchables w/ black access [1-2]
- He's playing a bant shell with Hierarch, Pridemage, Geist of Saint Traft, True-Name Nemesis, and Thrun alongside the typical blue manipulation and white removal spells. Tough threats all around.
- I win game one with a developed board even after he leads on Noble->Geist->2x Pridemage.
- He takes game two off a tempo Geist with Path to Exile and Swords clearing the way.
- He takes game three in a close one after we trade some hits and he stalls the board out with TNN and Thrun until he can find a removal spell and another threat to break parity.

Round 2 v Bad-Luck Burn [2-1]
- Game one I lead Hierach->Thalia + Mom, he leads on a Lava Spike then he Chain Lightnings the Mom, and then the Thalia, and then Bolts the Hierarch, and then a Pridemage I play.. I lead Savannah into triple Wasteland, so maybe he thought the Hierarch was relevant.. dunno. So he's sitting pretty at like 17 with no cards and I'm sitting at a healthy 16. Then he complains about flooding as I hit him a few times.
- Game two he blames luck as he mulls down to 5 and leads on a Lavamancer. I don't have a good way to interact with this and play for the mana plan to pump out threats. He gets me.
- Game three I stomp him with active Jitte on turn 4. I end the game with 11 counters on Jitte 'cause I hate his face and don't want to kill him faster.

Round 3 ID w/ RUG Delver

into top 8 lol

Round 4 v Metalworker brew w/ Painter's + Grindstone [2-1]
- He's on the play Game one and leads on a Furnace, I Thoughtseize and see double chalice, metalworker. I take the metalworker and let him stick a turn two chalice on 1. I play some two drops and hit him a few times. whee.
- Game two he gets me with Grindstone after Forgemastering + Lightning Greaves into it.
- Game three I Thoughtseize again and then lock the game up with Thalia into Knight, wasting his manabase.


Deck still feels solid, having access to Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay has been valuable lately. I wish I had an good answer to True-Name somewhere in the 75 though. The answers I do have are narrow and often unwanted in the matchups I see TNN.
For example, I didn't bring in Zealous Persecution against Bant. It only affects TNN and Noble Hierarch in his list.

Arsenal
12-13-2013, 04:54 PM
For example, I didn't bring in Zealous Persecution against Bant. It only affects TNN and Noble Hierarch in his list.

While true, Zealous Persecution allows you to profitably block his now 1/1 Geist, etc with your presumably bigger dudes. And the fact that you can just blow him out with Zealous Persecution on his Hierarch x 2 and TNN x 1 is just insane.

haganbmj
12-13-2013, 06:08 PM
While true, Zealous Persecution allows you to profitably block his now 1/1 Geist, etc with your presumably bigger dudes. And the fact that you can just blow him out with Zealous Persecution on his Hierarch x 2 and TNN x 1 is just insane.

Sure, there are situations where it is very useful. My primary point though was that his deck was set up to have draws that ignore Zealous Persecution, and it felt like I would only be bringing it to answer one threat (TNN). I'd like to find an option that's a bit more versatile so that I can bring it in as a general answer that happens to hit TNN, but also has play in other match scenarios.

lavafrogg
12-15-2013, 02:41 AM
Question to the maverick gurus...

Does the rise of true name nemesis mean that maverick is back due to its ability to destroy fair decks?

The pure GW mana base with 3-4 Thalia's punishes the tempo decks that have popped up and maverick does a great job of smashing control as well. Show and tell will be pushed back by the tempo decks and maverick will swoop in on the tempo decks!

2. Are you happy to match up against death and taxes? The decks are so similar....

litenkatt
12-15-2013, 05:28 AM
Question to the maverick gurus...

Does the rise of true name nemesis mean that maverick is back due to its ability to destroy fair decks?

The pure GW mana base with 3-4 Thalia's punishes the tempo decks that have popped up and maverick does a great job of smashing control as well. Show and tell will be pushed back by the tempo decks and maverick will swoop in on the tempo decks!

2. Are you happy to match up against death and taxes? The decks are so similar....

I've playtested quite a lot against stoneblade w/ nemesis. I play GW maverick with the depths/stage combo, with mindcensors, hierarchs etc. This matchup is close, but I think it's to our favor.

True name nemesis is very raceable, especially with the depths combo. You also have mindcensors, elspeth, mom and scryb ranger. Just make sure to destroy Jitte or Batterskull before they equip it to him, because at that point its over.

Choke is a BEATING. The guy played nemesis on turn 3, tapping island island and underground sea I believe, passed the turn and I slammed choke. GG

Barook
12-15-2013, 06:09 AM
Question to the maverick gurus...

Does the rise of true name nemesis mean that maverick is back due to its ability to destroy fair decks?

The pure GW mana base with 3-4 Thalia's punishes the tempo decks that have popped up and maverick does a great job of smashing control as well. Show and tell will be pushed back by the tempo decks and maverick will swoop in on the tempo decks!

2. Are you happy to match up against death and taxes? The decks are so similar....
TNN certainly pushed out BUG Shardless out of the meta and there's also a decline Jund which also benefits us.

I'm still suprised that Maverick does still perform in the current meta, though. Is the DD combo really the key to the recent success?

DaGarver
12-15-2013, 12:02 PM
Relatively new here, but I've been lurking for a while. A friend and I took the same 75 to a 1k; he finished in the top 8, so I wanted to share the list since it's been successful.

22 LANDS
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage

19 CREATURES
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

19 OTHER SPELLS
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate

SIDEBOARD
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

We opted to run a much more disruptive maindeck and cut a lot of the awkward late-game draws like Mother of Runes. The basic plan was to always have a must-answer turn 2 play, often facilitated on the back of Deathrite Shaman or Dryad Arbor: Knight of the Reliquary, Wasteland + 2 drop, or 1 mana disruptor (TS, Swords) + 2 drop. Dark Confidant and Stoneforge Mystic keep the good cards flowing and grind your opponents into the dirt. Knight of the Reliquary is a double-faced threat: beat them the old-fashioned way or set up Thespian Depths for a kill. The removal is all efficient, powerful, and flexible. The sideboard choices are plentiful, but we tailored to expecting combo (being in the Midwest U.S.) and True-Name Nemesis.

We're open to suggestions, of course, but we are pretty much sold on the maindeck at this point, despite how greedy the manabase is. Most of the work now is tuning the sideboard. Some of our losses (Affinity, Elves) would've benefited from a wrath effect of some kind, which makes me lean toward Pernicious Deed and/or Engineered Explosives.

lavafrogg
12-15-2013, 12:58 PM
DaGarver- you should take that lust over to the rock thread as they have been working on similar lists. At the point you are at: no mom and no heirarch mean you have crossed into junk territory and not just GWb maverick.

lavafrogg
12-15-2013, 12:59 PM
What would you guys say are the correct colors? Straight GW, punishing, or junk?

ironclad8690
12-16-2013, 12:10 PM
Played Dark Maverick in the SCG open in Las Vegas yesterday.

Won against: High Tide, Grixis Delver, U/B Tezz, Esper True-Blade.

Lost against: Elves, Merfolk, Punishing Jund, Rug Delver, and Bant True-Blade.

All in all, I really wish I had gone into this tournament with Punishing Fire rather than Thalia (at least in my maindeck).

As you guys can see from the results of the invi and the open, Jund had a really good weekend, and when Jund is doing well punishing fires are usually warranted. I would also definitely rock a sword of fire ice right now as part of the stoneforge package if you weren't already.

lavafrogg
12-16-2013, 07:02 PM
New maverick question: heirarch or deathrite shaman?

IL_casual
12-16-2013, 08:43 PM
Deathrite shaman all the way. Not only is drs a mana dork, it's also used as a mb hate against graveyard based decks.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

lavafrogg
12-17-2013, 12:25 AM
Deathrite shaman all the way. Not only is drs a mana dork, it's also used as a mb hate against graveyard based decks.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

Anyone else?

I have been testing an aggressive GW list with 3 mind censors and 4 pridemages and wrecking all of these stoneforge decks running around...

Megadeus
12-17-2013, 12:34 AM
If you are on straight GW, Hierarch seems better for more big men, if on black splash or even the 4 color version, DRS is probably best

lavafrogg
12-17-2013, 01:23 AM
Thanks, I am spending the evening reading all of the Maverick threads…. I think I'm finishing it soon.

buloid
12-17-2013, 04:46 AM
Thanks, I am spending the evening reading all of the Maverick threads…. I think I'm finishing it soon.

Interesting list. Mind if you post it? 4 Pridemages and Mindcensors surely do fit the stoneblade meta, but leaning towards pure GW.

Barook
12-17-2013, 07:40 AM
Interesting list. Mind if you post it? 4 Pridemages and Mindcensors surely do fit the stoneblade meta, but leaning towards pure GW.
4 Pridemages seem excessive, even in a Stoneblade meta. You still have GSZ for that.

If you run the black splash, I would rather have some Abrupt Decays in the mix.

lavafrogg
12-17-2013, 10:51 AM
4 Pridemages seem excessive, even in a Stoneblade meta. You still have GSZ for that.

If you run the black splash, I would rather have some Abrupt Decays in the mix.

It seems excessive, but these days you cannot let yourself get hit by an equipment once. Added to the fact that my list currently has 8 exalted creatures; the aven mind censor I flashed in in response to your [insert library search] or EOT now is hitting for 4-6 instead of just 2… The ground war in maverick has a tendency to bog down without mother of ruins so being able to lend some additional power to the air(or just attacking as a 3/3+) really helps.

That being said, the ext card I am looking at is fauna shaman…

Maëlig
12-18-2013, 04:58 AM
Wouldn't mirran crusader be generally better than aven mindcensor in a list with 8 exalt creatures?

IL_casual
12-18-2013, 05:08 AM
Wouldn't mirran crusader be generally better than aven mindcensor in a list with 8 exalt creatures?

Vs stoneblade decks, aven mindcensors ability is more useful.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

lavafrogg
12-18-2013, 08:10 PM
Wouldn't mirran crusader be generally better than aven mindcensor in a list with 8 exalt creatures?

Mind censor flies!! This is especially important with a true name clogging the ground.

I am also brewing with fauna shaman again...

Moroklumpen
12-24-2013, 11:48 AM
Has anyone tried Mana Tithe in any nonblue Maverick variant? It would give us a way to interact with spells on the stack, it should go reasonably well with our mana denial, and noone would see it coming.

Fatal
12-24-2013, 04:11 PM
Problem with mana tithe is resources - Maverick is quite a mana hungry deck - you don't have any "free" spells, additional with Thalia on table you need to left 2 mana open to cast it - it's just not worth better deploy proactive answer or a thread for this 2 mana.

Moroklumpen
12-24-2013, 09:14 PM
Well, I figure its main strength is giving us interaction on turn one. This in itself sets it apart. Second, people won't be playing around it early on since our disruption tends to be entirely permanent-based. Third, us playing it occasionally may cause people to play around it even if we later cut it entirely, giving us free advantage. And finally, it's an unreliable but still possible answer to just about any relevant card except for Abrupt Decay. It'll basically never be entirely dead except against something like Manaless Dredge, assuming non-abundant mana of course (basically the same assumpion that makes Daze playable). This makes it possible maindeck material, giving us G1 interaction against decks that are likely to auto-roll us pre-board.

Our game plan is based around pressure and disruption, especially mana denial. A universal soft counter that noone sees coming seems like it ought to merit testing.

Regarding negative Thalia synergy: First, the Tithe might keep us alive to play her. Second, the taxing is likely to bother them more than us. Third, it'll be our choice whether to keep it up or add something to the table. If our only spells are Thalia plus whatever we decided to play in this slot, we're in trouble no matter what. Otherwise, we get to choose. And having one more axis of interaction to choose from seems good to me even if it's unreliable.

Megadeus
12-24-2013, 11:19 PM
Please play mana tithe and do well. Nothing is better than seeing someones face after getting blown out by Mana Tithe

Luklinda
12-25-2013, 02:49 AM
Well, I figure its main strength is giving us interaction on turn one. This in itself sets it apart. Second, people won't be playing around it early on since our disruption tends to be entirely permanent-based. Third, us playing it occasionally may cause people to play around it even if we later cut it entirely, giving us free advantage. And finally, it's an unreliable but still possible answer to just about any relevant card except for Abrupt Decay. It'll basically never be entirely dead except against something like Manaless Dredge, assuming non-abundant mana of course (basically the same assumpion that makes Daze playable). This makes it possible maindeck material, giving us G1 interaction against decks that are likely to auto-roll us pre-board.

Our game plan is based around pressure and disruption, especially mana denial. A universal soft counter that noone sees coming seems like it ought to merit testing.

Regarding negative Thalia synergy: First, the Tithe might keep us alive to play her. Second, the taxing is likely to bother them more than us. Third, it'll be our choice whether to keep it up or add something to the table. If our only spells are Thalia plus whatever we decided to play in this slot, we're in trouble no matter what. Otherwise, we get to choose. And having one more axis of interaction to choose from seems good to me even if it's unreliable.

Explain when this would ever be preferable to the black splashes that have access to duress and thoughtseize on turn 1? Lack of availability of dual lands is about the only reason I can think of and that's irrelevant to a competitive discussion.

Moroklumpen
12-25-2013, 08:28 AM
First, it's playable in straight GW, which some may prefer for mana stability. If TNN isn't huge in your meta but Wasteland still is a factor, that's relevant. Also, if you decided to go for Punishing Mav instead of junk, it's an option.

Second, it has surprise factor. A combo player is likely to think the coast is clear and decide to go for it before we can land a hatebear, walking straight into it. This can potentially cost him several cards rather than just one (say, he goes ritual, ritual Ad Nauseam or Lotus Petal, S&T).

Third, it can protect against topdecks, which discard doesn't.

Fourth, it works when they have redundant cards in hand.

Fifth, it can't be protected against by floating the key spell on top of the deck with Brainstorm, Top, Ponder or Jace.

Sixth, it's not stopped by Leyline of Sanctity.

Seventh, it can stop.. err... Wilt-Leaf Liege. And that card is a pain. Yeah.

I'm not saying this card is the white daze or anything, but I'm trying to figure out just how close (or far off) it is.

Fatal
12-25-2013, 09:11 AM
@Moro - Surprising factor works once, maybe two times - it's ok in small local tournament to surprise - on bigger tournament after your "trap" worked, everyone from higher tables will keep on eye those kind of toys - stability is the key not surprising factor. "The dark side" of cards like mana tithe - its useless in middle and late game where you should take advantage over opponent - its dead draw.

If you looking to answer to specify combo better use dedicated hate vs those decks(I would rather play Leyline of Sanctity). Mana Tithe isn't an answer and its really easy to playout - its the reason why force spike doesn't see play anymore since Mono -U control in saga times.

Daze is free you doesn't lose mana (open mana - which you could use) to cast it - its really far far away from it - play test it even in D&T it was dropped (D&T can support it much better with rishadan ports/vial).

Turn 1 is one of the most critical playing a manadork/GSZ/STP is enough reason to not playing such a card like mana tithe.

Bed Decks Palyer
12-25-2013, 11:32 AM
Isn't Orim's Chant or Silence much better than Mana Tithe?

jonnnny
12-26-2013, 12:58 AM
Isn't Orim's Chant or Silence much better than Mana Tithe?

Neither of those can counter a spell on the stack. I play mana tithe in my modern d&t deck and it catches people offguard game 1. I always side it out game 2 yet the opponent will play suboptimally to play around it.

Bed Decks Palyer
12-26-2013, 04:24 AM
Neither of those can counter a spell on the stack. I play mana tithe in my modern d&t deck and it catches people offguard game 1. I always side it out game 2 yet the opponent will play suboptimally to play around it.

You play Silence in resp. to third ritual.
But as long as Gitaxian Probe is legal, I don't think that many storm pilots will walk into the Tithe/Chant. Fact is that they won't expect anything uly once you go Cavern->MoR or Savannah->Vial, otoh, the chance that they play a GP is quite big.

Luklinda
12-26-2013, 08:18 AM
First, it's playable in straight GW, which some may prefer for mana stability. If TNN isn't huge in your meta but Wasteland still is a factor, that's relevant. Also, if you decided to go for Punishing Mav instead of junk, it's an option.

Second, it has surprise factor. A combo player is likely to think the coast is clear and decide to go for it before we can land a hatebear, walking straight into it. This can potentially cost him several cards rather than just one (say, he goes ritual, ritual Ad Nauseam or Lotus Petal, S&T).

Third, it can protect against topdecks, which discard doesn't.

Fourth, it works when they have redundant cards in hand.

Fifth, it can't be protected against by floating the key spell on top of the deck with Brainstorm, Top, Ponder or Jace.

Sixth, it's not stopped by Leyline of Sanctity.

Seventh, it can stop.. err... Wilt-Leaf Liege. And that card is a pain. Yeah.

I'm not saying this card is the white daze or anything, but I'm trying to figure out just how close (or far off) it is.

... Eighth, it's typically worthless out of the first two or three turns as it's a daze effect.

Ninth, it requires you to slow play in the first few turns (instead of developing your board or actually making a turn 1 play) to hold up mana for a tax effect.

Tenth, while not "dodge-able" by BS/JTMS/etc. it's completely dodge-able by having an efficient/low curve, or lands.

Eleventh, it's a terrible top deck card.

If you're trying to evaluate how close it is to a daze, just look at how many decks play force spike for a relative comparison. (Hint it's zero). It's also kind of terrible in multiples. Basically the only advantage is the surprise factor from it; which probably won't work more than once or twice and doesn't seem overly consistent for a long tournament. Being bad/irrelevant past turn 3 is a huge strike against it seeing how every single game you have any hope of winning is going to go longer than that.

Zombie
12-26-2013, 08:42 AM
Please play mana tithe and do well. Nothing is better than seeing someones face after getting blown out by Mana Tithe

TS-Lor Standard. GWx Doran Rock vs. Faeries. Doran player's upkeep, Faeries player goes for the usual Mistbind Clique. That one-of Mana Tithe was priceless. Won the game, too.

Arsenal
12-26-2013, 01:00 PM
So after copying some tech from GW lists I've seen floating around, I've been running a singleton Bow of Nylea in place of my singleton Elspeth, Knight-Errant. So far, the Bow has been impressive. I already run 2 Jittes and the Bow sometimes feels like Jitte #3; it slices and dices depending on the situation. I like that it can blank a TNN attack, can shoot a Delver/Clique, always makes my attackers profit in combat and gets back my spent gas (GSZ + infinite Pridemage, etc). The fact that it's only a support card and not a threat by itself is annoying, but I've been finding Bow's versatility is usually more relevant than Elspeth's two +1's.

Moroklumpen
12-29-2013, 06:23 PM
Thanks for your input on Mana Tithe. If I end up testing it I'll let you guys know how it fares.

I'm building the deck now with a black splash, and I'm considering adding a manland to my mana base. Mutavault seems like the best in a vacuum, but with three colors and four Wastelands it's probably better to go for Treetop Village or Stirring Wildwood. Currently, I'm leaning towards the latter, thinking of it more as color fixing and flood mitigation than as a reliable threat. What do you guys think?

s6sculve
12-30-2013, 02:41 PM
This is my current build, I'm entering a small tournament tonight with it, should around 20-30 players:

G/W/b Maverick

Creatures 25:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

Instants and Sorceries 9:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts 2:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantment 1:
1 Sylvan Library

Lands 23:
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist

In my experience these are my match ups:

Favored match ups:
Dredge, Storm, High Tide, Reanimator, Show and Tell, Canadian Thresh hold, Zoo, Goblins, The Rock, Stacks/MUD

50/50ish match ups:
Stoneblade,**UR Delver,*Elves, Shardless BUG, Punishing Jund

Bad match ups:
Belcher, Oops all Spells

Arsenal
12-30-2013, 02:46 PM
Interesting you're running the full playset of Abrupt Decay maindeck. Is that a concession to the Equipment-based TNN matchups?

s6sculve
12-30-2013, 02:52 PM
I've been playing 3-4 Abrupt Decay since I built the deck last year, it allows me to beat a countertop lock, Ćether Vial, Liliana OTV, LED, Jitte, Sword of This and That, Tempo strategies like Daze and FoW, and is also more synergetic with Deathrite Shaman than StPS is.

On a side note, Zealous Persecution is the MVP of my sideboard currently lol

s6sculve
12-30-2013, 03:11 PM
I had considered the Shardless BUG match up favorable until they started packing Massacre and Golgari Charm in their sideboard, now it's more 50/50... I myself haven't played against Punishing Jund with the deck. And I haven't gone up against Stoneblade/Deathblade since I put Zealous Persecution in the sideboard, not sure if it'll push the match up in my favor, but it should.

lavafrogg
01-10-2014, 03:33 AM
Between gaddock teeg and scavenging ooze you should have plenty of game against shard less bug. They have to have all of the right answers at the right time or they lose…and shard less BUG loves to durdle around for way too many turns.

IL_casual
01-10-2014, 03:43 AM
what does scavening ooze do to the shardless matchup?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

lavafrogg
01-10-2014, 03:49 AM
Blanks tarmogoyf and DRS and gives him another creature that he has to abrupt decay. Between knight and ooze(and equipment if you play it) he only has 4 decays.

Moroklumpen
01-10-2014, 02:09 PM
I've been building Dark Maverick for a local tournament, and here's my current maindeck:

1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Thoughtseize
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

I'm making room for Gaea's Cradle to support Sigarda and Ooze, and I'll probably end up cutting the Cavern for it. I'm also considering replacing the last two Hierarchs with Deathrite Shamans to dodge Nemesis hate. Are five fetchlands plus wastelands enough to support a full set of shamans as mana producers? Other cards I'd love to include somewhere in the 75 are Life from the Loam, Kitchen Finks, Garruk Relentless and Thrun, the last Troll. The sideboard is tentative to say the least; feedback is appreciated.

I expect a fairly diverse meta, with a variety of tempo decks and quite a bit of combo. Dredge, Elves, Oops and various S&T variants are all likely to show up.

sdematt
01-10-2014, 02:26 PM
I've been building Dark Maverick for a local tournament, and here's my current maindeck:

1 Birds of Paradise
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Thoughtseize
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

I'm making room for Gaea's Cradle to support Sigarda and Ooze, and I'll probably end up cutting the Cavern for it. I'm also considering replacing the last two Hierarchs with Deathrite Shamans to dodge Nemesis hate. Are five fetchlands plus wastelands enough to support a full set of shamans as mana producers? Other cards I'd love to include somewhere in the 75 are Life from the Loam, Kitchen Finks, Garruk Relentless and Thrun, the last Troll. The sideboard is tentative to say the least; feedback is appreciated.

I expect a fairly diverse meta, with a variety of tempo decks and quite a bit of combo. Dredge, Elves, Oops and various S&T variants are all likely to show up.

I'd up your Noble Hierarch count. Even though it suffers from the same problem of dying to Golgari Charm, having Exalted is a real thing, as is developing your manabase in a Deathrite Shaman heavy environment. Nothing's worse than trying to develop when they have an active shaman out.

I'd also think to cut something for another Qasali. It's a good one to have in an equipment heavy metagame.

-Matt

Keenco
01-10-2014, 02:54 PM
Honestly I don't know if this is correct or not; but I've been moving Mom to board for other things...

With so many ppl running delver, Tnn, Tnn hates, etc. mom does less and less for me.

Don't get me wrong, when mom is online she's very good, but I find it every time I have mom out she will just dies instantly to all sort of different things.

Also I agree to stick with noble hierarch. The opponent is not always gonna to give land for your shaman to make mana and it's never a good idea to draw land from your gy (for obvious reason). The +1 comes in hand too.

Luklinda
01-10-2014, 02:56 PM
I'd up your Noble Hierarch count. Even though it suffers from the same problem of dying to Golgari Charm, having Exalted is a real thing, as is developing your manabase in a Deathrite Shaman heavy environment. Nothing's worse than trying to develop when they have an active shaman out.

I'd also think to cut something for another Qasali. It's a good one to have in an equipment heavy metagame.

-Matt

Agreed, I'd pull your two out of:

SFM
Thalia
StoP
AD

in some combination, your druthers.

Moroklumpen
01-10-2014, 03:00 PM
Good point. I could drop the Bird for a Hierarch, but I kinda liked having it for mana stability and sword bearing.

Do equipment decks prioritize Batterskull against Maverick? I figured they'd go for Jitte or perhaps a sword, and I have Abrupt Decays for those. If you disagree I'll try to squeeze in another Pridemage.

Moroklumpen
01-10-2014, 04:24 PM
Agreed, I'd pull your two out of:

SFM
Thalia
StoP
AD

in some combination, your druthers.

My problem with cutting two of those is the risk of ending up with to many low impact cards. I already have a bunch of one-drops, and getting into topdeck wars without Sylvan Library sucks pretty badly already. My instinct at the moment is switching Birds for a Hierarch and one AD for a Pridemage. How does that sound?

sdematt
01-12-2014, 09:57 PM
My problem with cutting two of those is the risk of ending up with to many low impact cards. I already have a bunch of one-drops, and getting into topdeck wars without Sylvan Library sucks pretty badly already. My instinct at the moment is switching Birds for a Hierarch and one AD for a Pridemage. How does that sound?

Against the average Maverick board state, I would always go for Jitte. Why? Mother of Runes. I know she SEEMS low impact, but she's doing work. She's making your opponent have to 2-for-1 themselves to get ahead. Jitte gets around her, so I'd always opt for Jitte given the opportunity.
And for you, Mom is allowing you to not block TNN, but swing PAST him with equipment to connect to THEIR face, which is a huge deal in a matchup where you've got a bunch of little guys supporting 4 big beaters.


I think you pull the Decay or STP. Decay is better in an equipment meta, but will always be harder to cast for this deck. You want at least 4 pieces of spot removal total, though.

Birds does give you some edge with equipment, though. With exalted, it means it'll connect with a Jitte and collect counters. I'd rather just leave in a value Deathrite Shaman. It gives you some edge to tutor for in a lock out situation (Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, etc.) or when you just want to remove creatures/spells. Ooze will always be strictly better for graveyard removal, though.

I would run:

1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard: (really depends on what you expect to face)

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Thoughtseize
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Equipment (pro Blue or Batterskull)
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Open (depends how much graveyard, Combo, or Miracles you see. Could be Pithing Needle for stuff like Top, Deed, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Jace, etc. or Path to Exile if you're facing infinite aggro.deck)

Just my opinion.

-Matt

Moroklumpen
01-13-2014, 05:20 PM
Here's what I ended up running:

2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Purge the Grave
1 Ravenous Trap

I was going to play Tormod's Crypt over Purge, but couldn't find one in time. Impressive, I know.

I'll consider Birds over one DRS next time, though I was pretty pleased with the maindeck overall. The sideboard got spread a bit thin, but I really wanted more discard and ended up shaving what I considered to be two of the least essensial cards - one Canonist and one Choke. Part of the reason was the large number of new players at the tournament, which made me expect lots of burn. Duress is a lot better than Thoughtseize in that matchup, and still good against those decks Choke and Canonist would come in against.

Here's a report of sorts:

Round 1: Welder MUD

A little pre-game chat indicated that my opponent was a fairly experienced player, having played some S&T variant before but switched before the tournament. He went first in game one, dropped Cavern naming goblin and immediately threw me a curveball by playing Welder and Mox Opal. I assumed that meant Painter/Stone. I wasted the cavern and passed back, and he didn't have another land. I played MoR, he drew and passed. I got a Cradle out and kept adding stuff to the board; he kept struggling, dying to beats before showing me anything significant.

I don't remember exactly how I sided, but I did grab some discard to break up the assumed combo and some extra grave hate to trump the Welder.

In game two he played some sol lands into Grim Monolith, and I struggled to interact with a mediocre hand when he dropped a Lodestone Golem. I hade removal for it, but he followed it up with Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster and I decided those were bigger threats. He eventually dropped Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan, and it was lights out. I took out one Thalia and something else for a couple of Oblivion Rings.

In game three he started chaining Grim Monoliths, having three tapped ones at one point. I tried to use my Wastelands aggressively to keep him off untap mana, and succeed to some degree. I did manage to build up a board of Knight, Thalia and equipment, but failed to choke his mana off entirely. He eventually dropped Wurmcoil, and I had to start blocking with Thalia and bouncing her with Karakas to keep him from pulling too far ahead. He finally managed to scrape together twelve mana and dropped Blightsteel Colossus. Fortunately, I drew Elspeth and managed to jump my equipped knight for pretty much exactsies.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: BUG Explorer Pod.

Curses. My opponent this round was also my testing mate, and the matchup is terrible. In game one he lead with Swamp into Tropical Island (or possibly Island -> Bayou) and started chaining Tidehollow Strixes. Fortunately, he failed to hit another land, allowing me to waste him out of green, stranding a Veteran Explorer in his hand (he admitted afterwards this was a greedy play on his part). I then got an actice Jitte on a knight and he scooped soon after.

I took out two Thalias and two Deathrite Shamans for 2x Thoughtseize and 2x Oblivion Ring. The latter, I soon realize, was a mistake.

I almost took the match when I got an active knight after a board wipe (I believe he drew three Pernicious Deeds in this game. making my O-Ring pretty bad), but punted by not zenithing for Sylvan Safekeeper. He stole the knight with Sower of Temptation and took the game.

I took the O-Rings back out for (IIRC) 2x Duress.

Game three went like our testing usually did; he deeded away my early lead and ground me out with value critters.

1-1 (3-3)

Round 3: Elves

While we shuffled and chatted, my opponent held his (split) deck with the card faces against me for an unmissable moment, revealing Windswept Heath and Wirewood Symbiote. This allowed me to mulligan a hand that did nothing against elves, but my six was still pretty mediocre and I really didn't want to go to five. While his draw was on the slow side for an elf deck, I had too little interaction and ended up scooping when he flooded the board with little green guys.

I sided in 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Zealous Persecution and Ethersworn Canonist for slow and useless stuff.

Again, his draw was a bit slow, and I got an active knight that beat him down to five. He started populating the board and building momentum, and I punted pretty badly when I Thoughtseized him, taking Zenith over 'Hoof when I had just drawn Gaddock Teeg. Fortunately, I drew Scryb Ranger and flew across for the last points of damage just before he could close it out.

In game 3, I managed to stifle his development with some removal, but he beat me down pretty effectively. I established a board of Knight, Stoneforge Mystic with Jitte, Mom and eventually Elspeth, but he forced me to use all the Jitte counters on his Deathrite Shamans, who would otherwise have ended the game very quickly. He then played Natural Order, but realizing that the 'Hoof would be smaller than my Knight, got Progenitus instead, since it would be lethal the turn after. Like a champ, I ripped Sword of Fire and Ice with just enough mana to play and equip it. Elspeth jumped the knight, Mom runed SFM against green, and I swung past Proggie for just a bit more than lethal.

2-1 (6-3)

Round 4: U/W/r Miracles

The funniest thing about this game was the pre-game sequence. I have a long-standing reputation as the local Dredge guy, having played the deck since before the Survival banning (i.e. since the beginning of the legacy revival in Oslo). To capitalize on this reputation, I put a handful of zombie tokens in my deckbox, leaving them visible. It hadn't mattered before since my previous opponents didn't know me well enough, but my current opponent did and bought the bluff entirely. Unfortunately, I mulled to four without seeing a playable hand, and scooped game one without showing him anything, having ascertained that he was on miracles.

I sided out all Swords to Plowshares and both Oozes, taking in Thoughtseize, Duress and Choke.

In game two I went first, playing Heath for Savannah into Mom. The look on my opponent's face was a marvel to behold, and he proceeded to call me a bunch of stuff that could possibly have earned him a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct if 1) a judge (other than myself) had heard and 2) I hadn't been quite certain that he didn't really mean it and was merely expressing surprise and self-reproach for having bought the bluff and sided for the wrong matchup (right, Mads?).

In any case, the game was pretty close, but I never managed to establish the Mom/Safekeeper+Teeg lock. Eventually, he made my team disappear and made a couple of angels. I was lacking black mana for the Decay in my hand, but managed to drop Mystic and Sword it up. I almost managed to race, but on a critical turn I drew Thoughtseize instead of a black source, and then he dropped Moat. After that, finally drawing Bayou and killing one Angel merely delayed the end.

2-2 (6-5) and almost certainly out of top eight contention. Still, there were league points on the line, and who knew? Maybe all the undefeated players had some bad baguettes and got food poisoning.

Round 5: Miracles. Again.

Oh great. Another familiar player, but not as experienced with the miracle deck as my previous opponent. He did know what I was playing, though. In game one he apparently had a hand with several counters but little on-board interaction, because he Forced two of my early plays, allowing me to resolve Sylvan Library and Knight of the Reliquary later. This gave me a massive advantage, allowing me to take game 1 fairly easily.

I sided like last round.

I can't remember whether we played two or three games; I think it was two.

In the last game I managed to draw out some counters and removal before zenithing for Teeg and dropping Safekeeper. Wrong order, I know, but it worked out (in fact, he might have Terminus'ed away the Safekeeper if I had dropped it before Zenithing). He drew no outs and died.

3-2 (8-5 IIRC)

Round 6: The Epic Storm

I assumed my opponent was on Dredge, since I knew he'd played it to a 2nd place finish in the last local legacy event. This time, however, he lead with Bloodstained Mire into Underground Sea and started cantripping. I Wasted the sea, he dropped a Gemstone Mine, I fetched for Savannah and dropped Mom. He Burning Wished for Grapeshot, I dropped Thalia. He kept cantripping for a couple of turns and then died.

I took out StP and some slow stuff for discard, Canonist, one Zealous Persecution (should have taken both) and Spellbomb (in case he had Past in Flames - besides, whatever I took out was worse).

I mulled once and kept a mediocre hand with no real interaction, only a spellbomb, some attackers and Sylvan Library. He made a bunch of goblins and library failed to find me an answer, even with a shuffle.

I took out Sigarda (I have no idea why I hadn't already) for the second Persecution.

I went first and kept an excellent hand (or so I thought) with Mom, Teeg, Thalia and sufficient lands. I played Mom, he played Therapy for Thalia, Chrome Mox (exiling something black), Therapy for Teeg. Yay. On the next turn (or possibly the one after) he played land, LED, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, crack LED for red, Ad Nauseam with 18 life. Yay. He then proceeded to draw everything he needed except for a free source of black mana. At four life, he realized the best thing he could do was make some goblins, but not enough to race the Scryb Ranger he knew I had in hand, ready to flash in. He had to continue drawing cards, and killed himself exactly. When he died, the two next cards on top of his deck were a land and Lotus Petal. Me attacking with Mom on turn 2 won me the game. That, and his terrible luck.

4-2 (10-6)

There were lots of Delver and other tempo decks in the room, I just didn't play any of them. Considering the matchups (and my somewhat limited experience with the deck) I'm rather pleased with 4-2.

Telkku
01-16-2014, 05:53 PM
Im still wondering why people play black splash and they dont have BoB's in, is it a money issue or whats going on? Its top#3 creature card and since your playing 2x bayou and 1x scrubland i dont see any point not to play it. If you dont answer it immidiatly its going to take over the game. Every time we play against each other with my friend ( hes playing rock ) the one who gets to keep hes Bob wins the game, 100% of the time. And this is the same in almost all of the matchups, i win the game if my opponent lets Bob do its magic. So im curious, explanations!!?? :)

IL_casual
01-16-2014, 05:59 PM
Im still wondering why people play black splash and they dont have BoB's in, is it a money issue or whats going on? Its top#3 creature card and since your playing 2x bayou and 1x scrubland i dont see any point not to play it. If you dont answer it immidiatly its going to take over the game. Every time we play against each other with my friend ( hes playing rock ) the one who gets to keep hes Bob wins the game, 100% of the time. And this is the same in almost all of the matchups, i win the game if my opponent lets Bob do its magic. So im curious, explanations!!?? :)

My reason is that I guess theres not enough space to put in bob. The only flex space for me is the thoughtseize slots and thats important vs combo, an inherent weakness of mavs.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

Stuhl
01-16-2014, 06:00 PM
I don't know either:)
I am playing 3 bobs instead of thalias and think it is just fine! 3 thalias in sideboard will bounce in against combo or heavy control. The problem with thalia is, that sometimes it is "just a creature" (against elves, death and texas, mervolk, ...) while bob always does a lot! Except combo hate in the preboard game...
Also I am running more removals myself. At the moment 4 swords, 3 decays, 1 zealous persecution.
I think it is somehow a flavour thing as both choices are respectable!

P.s.: also in a maverick mirror, the one with bobs will will the game!

Telkku
01-16-2014, 06:34 PM
Bob shouldnt take a flex slot, it takes its own slot and is the shining star. You really should try it and see how much better your deck performs after. If they dont revome it your gonna draw alot and what wins you games? Drawing more cards than your opponent.. And if they use the removal for it; your knight will survive = really good thing :D I would never go below 4. Whats your list then? Curious what you cant cut.

Last 5 tournament games ive played against combo, ive won all of them. 2 times Omnitell ( which is alot harder matchup than TES or ANT ) 2 ANT's and 1 TES.

Of course ppl have personal preferences and im not saying do not do this or that, but it is just the card that wins me games and its not metagame dependent.

lavafrogg
01-16-2014, 06:38 PM
Bob will and shouldnt take a flex slot, it takes its own slot and is the shining star. You really should try it and see how much better your deck performs after. If they dont revome it your gonna draw alot and what wins you games? Drawing more cards than your opponent.. And if they use the removal for it; your knight will survive = really good thing :D I would never go below 4. Whats your list then? Curious what you cant cut.

Last 5 tournament games ive played against combo, ive won all of them. 2 times Omnitell ( which is alot harder matchup than TES or ANT ) 2 ANT's and 1 TES.

Because Thalia is how you beat the unfair decks in the format. She was gods gift to creature decks.

Telkku
01-16-2014, 06:39 PM
Because Thalia is how you beat the unfair decks in the format. She was gods gift to creature decks.

Im not saying its not good, Bob is just 10 times better.. And i play 3 Thalia's main too.

Stuhl
01-16-2014, 07:27 PM
My current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Dark Confidant
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (this slot is somehow flexible. another teeg/pridemage might be there, depending on the meta)


4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith


Sideboard:

3 Thalia
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog


I went 4-2-1 at a 90 men tournament with that list. The mana-base is a bit greedy with 2 lands that actually don't produce mana. But I really appreciated the dark depths combo in a lot of games! It often comes unexpected at end of opponents turn. If you wait for the right moment the combo is woth it!
If I wouldn't have had a lack of concentration in 2 games I even could have gone 6-1 (I scooped a game in which I could have won the next round... at least all people standing around told me that. Unfortunately I really had to go to the toilet and just couldn't concentrate and oversee the situation... I drawed another game because I forgot about the extra turns and thought I'll keep things slow... suddenly the game was over and my opponent at 1 life...)
Nevertheless I'm really happy that the deck worked. But I didn't had a combo matchup, except elves, which is more in our favor.

I matchupped:
2 death and texas (in general my best match up. they end up with no cards in hand while I draw me into a lot thanks to bobby) 2-0
1 elves 3-0
1 mervolk 3-1 (the game I actually could have won)
1 esper stoneblade 3-1-1 (the game I drawed because if silliness)
1 countertop 3-2-1
1 BUG delver 4-2-1

There were a lot of creature based decks, so I didn't really had the chance to test against combo.
I definitely will try on with that list because most losses are not due to the cards but more due to my way of playing them... need a lot more practice!

ps: I also thought about running Thalia AND Bob, but somehow I want some slots for spells... Even if you play against combo you don't necessarily have Thalia in you hand... and a late game Thalia is just... bah! A turn 2 zenith to gaddock teeg is a very strong protection against combo and the (only) one I have :P

Telkku
01-16-2014, 07:49 PM
I really dislike the batterskull on Maverick, i understand it in stoneblade decks as it is a win condition, but in our deck its not that good, Jitte is much better in every situation and with cradle you can swap it around. This gives you the opportunity to take Stoneforge Mystics away since you dont really need them, just up your Jitte count since most of the time the first Jitte will be destroyed ( decay and all the other sheit ). I used to play 2 Jittes and 1 Mystic but i cut the mystic to add Sylvan Library back ( used to have it MD before too ) cause library's power level all around is just better, it helps in alot of situations and gives you once again card advantage acting kinda as the "5th BoB". Any specific reason you run 6 manadorks? You really need so many of them? And i would think that later game those draws are horrible? with 4 Mom's and 4 Deathrites 8 x one drop is still quite alot and lets not forget StP. I did test the Depths combo but i think its better suited for GW build since GWb manabase is clunky even without it ( though not horrible by any means ). Combo is nice though, i guess its kinda personal preference and gaining 20 life is not bad.. ( StP on your Marit )

ps. i dont think Thalia is so horrible late draw, it still carries Jitte with first strike and keeps alot of things at bay cause of the first strike, though of course you'd like to draw knight :)

lavafrogg
01-17-2014, 02:13 AM
Two equipment main and two side has been doing me great. Sword of f and I and sword if f and f main with jitte and skull side for tribal/ control matchups.

Is anyone on straight GW anymore?

litenkatt
01-17-2014, 02:48 AM
Two equipment main and two side has been doing me great. Sword of f and I and sword if f and f main with jitte and skull side for tribal/ control matchups.

Is anyone on straight GW anymore?

I am, with the dark depths combo. However, I don't believe Maverick is a strong deck atm and latley I've been trying out other decks. Mainly because of TNN

lavafrogg
01-17-2014, 03:02 AM
I'm not sure how maverick has gotten any worse. I think people just moved on to new things ie lots of maverick players have started playing nemisis decks as he is the new 3cc monster on the block. I think a list with multiple pride mages can keep any equipment off the board and then maverick can show why GW hate bears is so strong.

Death and taxes is a DTB and maverick is a better version of that.

Stuhl
01-17-2014, 10:16 AM
Hm, I really like the mana dorks as you have access to 3mana in turn 2 which gives you access to a 2 drop and StP/another mana dork or a zenith for 3 to gaddock teeg in case of a combo matchup. Or at least 2 mana if they wasteland you. It also fixes colors to live with the combo. Deathrite shamans are necessary and hierarchs often do not get removed by StP or LB as they do not seem dangerous. That allows a 2 drop second turn without the fear of daze. Batterskull imo is still a threat! You just have to wait for the right occasion! Here you also are safer with the mana dorks as you can hardcast batterskull eventually.

Arsenal
01-17-2014, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure how maverick has gotten any worse. I think people just moved on to new things ie lots of maverick players have started playing nemisis decks as he is the new 3cc monster on the block. I think a list with multiple pride mages can keep any equipment off the board and then maverick can show why GW hate bears is so strong.

Death and taxes is a DTB and maverick is a better version of that.

Unless you're fairly far ahead on board, Maverick just loses to TNN. Also, Maverick is unable to run traditional TNN hate cards such as Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Wrath effects, as those cards would severely hurt our deck as well. That isn't where you want to be right now.

MBTL90
01-17-2014, 01:37 PM
Unless you're fairly far ahead on board, Maverick just loses to TNN. Also, Maverick is unable to run traditional TNN hate cards such as Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Wrath effects, as those cards would severely hurt our deck as well. That isn't where you want to be right now.

I haven't found this to be correct. Of all the fair decks, i think that GWb maverick actually has a decent shot against TNN. I think the biggest issue with TNN isn't the card itself, but TNN + equipment. Luckily, GWb has plenty of ways to deal with the equipment itself, from Qasali Pridemage to Krosan Grip to Abrupt decay. With the black splash, you can/should play some ammount of Zealous Persecution in the board, to kill TNN against everything but Merfolk. Normally, Mavericks creatures are bigger than the TNN (Big knights or exalted), so we can just race the TNN. If they want to leave it to block, then we go to our second out, giving our attackers protection. This can come in the form of either Mother of Runes or Sword of Fire and Ice (which I think should be maindecked right now). Finally, if you are playing depths/stage in your Maverick list, if all else fails you can just go over the top with Merit Lage. TNN is a good card, but it is far from unbeatable.

Arsenal
01-17-2014, 01:46 PM
As a Stoneblade player, I've never lost to Maverick unless they're already pretty far ahead on board. Everytime I landed TNN on an even or an ever so slightly behind-for-me board, I've won as all of their anti-creature tech they normally crutch on does nothing and I do not need to fear any Golgari Charm/Wrath effects from them. Also, of all the fair decks, Punishing Jund has the best shot at defeating the numerous SFM-TNN decks out there; loads of spot removal + discard leverages their sacrifice spells (Liliana, I've seen Diabolic Edict run too) and they have access to REB and Pyroblast + Golgari Charm postboard.

Re-reading your example, I don't think you read my initial statement of "unless you're fairly far ahead on board". Your example of having a Mother + Pridemage + SoFI + KotR + holding Zealous/Decay in hand versus a sole TNN... yeah, Maverick is winning that battle. But when I've Supreme Verdicted your board away and you topdeck a Pridemage while also having a Maze of Ith out? You're dead to my topdecked TNN. Your example sort of proves my point; unless Maverick is already fairly far ahead on board, it doesn't have the tools necessary to deal with TNN whereas other midrange decks do.

MBTL90
01-17-2014, 02:38 PM
As a Stoneblade player, I've never lost to Maverick unless they're already pretty far ahead on board. Everytime I landed TNN on an even or an ever so slightly behind-for-me board, I've won as all of their anti-creature tech they normally crutch on does nothing and I do not need to fear any Golgari Charm/Wrath effects from them. Also, of all the fair decks, Punishing Jund has the best shot at defeating the numerous SFM-TNN decks out there; loads of spot removal + discard leverages their sacrifice spells (Liliana, I've seen Diabolic Edict run too) and they have access to REB and Pyroblast + Golgari Charm postboard.

Re-reading your example, I don't think you read my initial statement of "unless you're fairly far ahead on board". Your example of having a Mother + Pridemage + SoFI + KotR + holding Zealous/Decay in hand versus a sole TNN... yeah, Maverick is winning that battle. But when I've Supreme Verdicted your board away and you topdeck a Pridemage while also having a Maze of Ith out? You're dead to my topdecked TNN. Your example sort of proves my point; unless Maverick is already fairly far ahead on board, it doesn't have the tools necessary to deal with TNN whereas other midrange decks do.

No, what I'm saying is that theres many different ways to deal with TNN, not that you need all of them to beat it. Empty board and TNN? Keep equipment off him and its a fairly slow clock. Using him to blank all my attacks? Just need mom or sofai. Winning the combat war? Just go over the top with knight into stage/depths. If you consider having a Knight on the board or having a removal spell in hand (equipment or zealous) "ahead on board" then I guess you're right but none of those things are all that unreasonable.

Arsenal
01-17-2014, 02:58 PM
No, what I'm saying is that theres many different ways to deal with TNN, not that you need all of them to beat it. Empty board and TNN? Keep equipment off him and its a fairly slow clock. Using him to blank all my attacks? Just need mom or sofai. Winning the combat war? Just go over the top with knight into stage/depths. If you consider having a Knight on the board or having a removal spell in hand (equipment or zealous) "ahead on board" then I guess you're right but none of those things are all that unreasonable.

If you have an attacker (KotR, Ooze, etc) + Mother and/or SoFI, I'd call that being far ahead on board. Also, you stated earlier that Maverick is the best suited deck to combat the various TNN decks out there, yet the tourney results do not bear that out. What do you know that others do not? If Maverick is the best anti-TNN deck out there, I have to imagine that more people would be playing it as TNN is everywhere nowadays.

MBTL90
01-17-2014, 03:30 PM
If you have an attacker (KotR, Ooze, etc) + Mother and/or SoFI, I'd call that being far ahead on board. Also, you stated earlier that Maverick is the best suited deck to combat the various TNN decks out there, yet the tourney results do not bear that out. What do you know that others do not? If Maverick is the best anti-TNN deck out there, I have to imagine that more people would be playing it as TNN is everywhere nowadays.

I said of the creature based fair decks, not best deck period to fight TNN. I misspoke a little though, jund is probably better off, and I don't really consider pox/loam "fair decks." Best way to actually beat TNN is to ignore it, ala combo, but I'm an aggro player at heart

Arsenal
01-17-2014, 03:40 PM
I did a fairly in-depth analysis of Maverick pre-TNN and post-TNN in the now locked "Do you want to see TNN go away" thread. In it, I showed that Maverick averaged a 9th place finish for Jan 2013-November 2013 and now that all of Dec 2013's data is in, it dropped to 18th for that month (it's previous low during the Jan-Nov stretch was 13th place).

Unlike other fair decks, Maverick actually has a pretty miserable time trying to 1-for-1 TNN decks, it needs to be fairly far ahead on board (your relevant attacker + Mom/SoFI example) in order to have all of the hatebears synergize and out-advantage the opponent. However, Jund can simply go "resolve Liliana of the Veil, sac your TNN" and now they're super far ahead on board without really even trying that hard. There's nothing like that available in Maverick nor do we play with our own TNN, so we're still relying on having an established board before TNN can start impacting the game. If we don't have that board presence though, we lose those matchups whereas other fair decks that also don't have established board presence can fairly easily get back in the game (Liliana example, playing their own TNN, etc).

lavafrogg
01-17-2014, 04:19 PM
Unless you're fairly far ahead on board, Maverick just loses to TNN. Also, Maverick is unable to run traditional TNN hate cards such as Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Wrath effects, as those cards would severely hurt our deck as well. That isn't where you want to be right now.

What is the logic behind death and taxes?

Thank you for your responses.

Arsenal
01-17-2014, 04:47 PM
Flyers. They run Flickerwisp and Serra Avenger, both don't care about TNN at all. Also, their anti-Equipment hate (Revoker) is better than our Pridemage as Revoker can swing for 2 while blanking the opposing Jitte whereas we need to blow up our Pridemage in order for it to impact the board. With D&T being on the SFM plan (most Maverick lists eschew SFM altogether for some reason), they can also apply a fair amount of pressure while not committing much in terms of resources; Maverick needs to have a full board of value creatures in order to eke out an advantage.

They too can just lose to TNN if they don't have the proper board or cards in hand. I've watched games where D&T just loses to TNN when they're ground crew doesn't matter and they're cute Mangara-Karakas combo doesn't save them from a guaranteed 3 points every turn until death. TNN is a slow clock, but a near-inevitable one that simply beats decks that (a.) don't run they're own TNN and (b.) don't run good natural answers to TNN.

lavafrogg
01-17-2014, 11:38 PM
Flyers. They run Flickerwisp and Serra Avenger, both don't care about TNN at all. Also, their anti-Equipment hate (Revoker) is better than our Pridemage as Revoker can swing for 2 while blanking the opposing Jitte whereas we need to blow up our Pridemage in order for it to impact the board. With D&T being on the SFM plan (most Maverick lists eschew SFM altogether for some reason), they can also apply a fair amount of pressure while not committing much in terms of resources; Maverick needs to have a full board of value creatures in order to eke out an advantage.

They too can just lose to TNN if they don't have the proper board or cards in hand. I've watched games where D&T just loses to TNN when they're ground crew doesn't matter and they're cute Mangara-Karakas combo doesn't save them from a guaranteed 3 points every turn until death. TNN is a slow clock, but a near-inevitable one that simply beats decks that (a.) don't run they're own TNN and (b.) don't run good natural answers to TNN.

Cool. I'm on SFM with mindcensors main along with multiple ooze and teegs. I guess people just don't play maverick like it should be played.

That being said... Seeing how maverick plays tons of mana dorks... How do decks these days deal with exalted angels? Seems like it could come down reliably enough with all of the other threats in the deck. Exalted angel does not give a fuck about most removal played these days and kills most anything in the air.

Stuhl
01-18-2014, 04:44 AM
Exalted angel? Either it gets killed as it is a morph, or you wait 5/6 rounds to play it and it gets StP'red or countered... I think nowadays that card has too less value for 6 mana. I rather would play thrun over exalted angel as it can't be countered and killed in the first place and is a clock too, but you can play it ealy enough!

lavafrogg
01-18-2014, 12:45 PM
Exalted angel? Either it gets killed as it is a morph, or you wait 5/6 rounds to play it and it gets StP'red or countered... I think nowadays that card has too less value for 6 mana. I rather would play thrun over exalted angel as it can't be countered and killed in the first place and is a clock too, but you can play it ealy enough!

You know you can use this logic against any card in magic.

Claymore
01-18-2014, 01:18 PM
If the morph can survive one turn (Mother), then its not that bad. Blanks Abrupt Decay, requires Jund to 2-for-1 with Bolts and PFire or combat, and flies over the top of TNN for a lifelink profit.

Thrun might come down uncounterable, but he does nothing against TNN. TNN roadblocks him all day creating a stale board and he does nothing against an aggressive TNN.

miguelmatix
01-18-2014, 02:38 PM
Sigarda is better - 5 mana, hexproof and zenitable. As much as i like exalted, it works better in stompy variants with sol lands and under a suppresion field.
Maybe mystic enforcer?

Stuhl
01-18-2014, 04:21 PM
In black versions maybe 1-2 lilianas would fit as they are also a good TNN hate.

Moroklumpen
01-18-2014, 07:57 PM
I'm running my list from last page back for another event tomorrow. Any suggestions would be welcome. In particular, I'm looking for a land to cut for a Cavern of Souls, and perhaps a way to fit in Garruk Relentless or Thrun, the Last Troll (I faced two miracle decks last time; I figure the best way to dodge them is to prepare for them). Despite not facing a single Delver or Merfolk deck the last time, I still expect them to be out in force, along with a few burn decks, some monoblack and a fair bit of combo (Elves, Dredge and S&T in particular). Oh, and a minimum of three miracle decks, unless someone has switched it up since last week. Tall order, anyone?

Arsenal
01-19-2014, 08:54 AM
I've found elspeth to be a really good card vs. Miracles, although I suppose nearly any planeswalker will be good versus them.

lavafrogg
01-19-2014, 10:51 PM
Anyone playing GWu maverick for spell pierce and meddling mage? Seems like everything I want to play right now.

Arsenal
01-20-2014, 01:46 AM
Spirit of the Labyrinth. Holy fuck. This might be out ticket back in. Definitely going to cut my 2 Sylvan Library, 1 Path to Exile, 1 Bow of Nylea and start running 4 of her. Thalia and SoL just seems super good versus every single blue deck right now.

lavafrogg
01-20-2014, 02:23 AM
Spirit of the Labyrinth. Holy fuck. This might be out ticket back in. Definitely going to cut my 2 Sylvan Library, 1 Path to Exile, 1 Bow of Nylea and start running 4 of her. Thalia and SoL just seems super good versus every single blue deck right now.

Oh my god they did it. Brainstorm hate. Eternal formats just got mind fucked.

I kind of feel bad for elves... But maybe cradles will drop in price.

litenkatt
01-20-2014, 04:10 AM
Wow, such a a sweet card. Maverick shall rise once again!

Arsenal
01-20-2014, 09:19 AM
This is a rough draft of what I'll be running post-BNG:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Green Sun’s Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Zombie
01-20-2014, 02:22 PM
Oh my god they did it. Brainstorm hate. Eternal formats just got mind fucked.

I kind of feel bad for elves... But maybe cradles will drop in price.

We can deal with it, more or less, especially if WotC deigns to print a Disenchant on a Gray Ogre in Theors Block or M15. Anything that hurts Show and Derp and makes them drop Leylines so I can rip their hands apart is welcome enough news for me. Words fail to describe how much I despise Leyline of Sanctity in SnD.

Philipp2293
01-20-2014, 03:40 PM
This is a rough draft of what I'll be running post-BNG:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Green Sun’s Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Quodlaser Maverick, love the streamlined look of it. Time to bust out my pimped out Maverick again. I'm not so sure if Maze is where you want to be in a TNN World, and I'm also not a fan of Cradle in a Stoneforgeless build, other than that I think you pretty much nailed who such a build could look like.

What are people's options of dealing with TNN and TNN Splash hate in straight GW?

Arsenal
01-20-2014, 03:42 PM
Ooze and GSZ -> Sigarda are the two biggest reasons Cradle is there. Cradle + Ooze is the absolute nut. Maze is still good with your own KotR and it's fantastic versus all non-TNN attackers.

Stuhl
01-20-2014, 04:15 PM
That list looks interesting. I'm currently running a GWb list with (unfortunately) no space for SoL. Could you post some reports of how the deck worked? I'm curious as it is really going in one direction.

lavafrogg
01-21-2014, 02:02 AM
Maverick masters. I want to play a GWu list this weekend at a tourney. Any suggestions? Right now I just have a GW list main with meddling mage/spell pierce in the board.

This is where I am currently at:

4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 Stoneforge
4 Knight

3 scavenging ooze
3 pridemage
3 mind sensor
1 teeg

1 Jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

21 lands
3 heaths
3 wooded foothills
3 savannah
2 tropical
1 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 maze
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
1 arbor

side board:

4 meddling mage
4 spell pierce
3 oblivion ring
3 path to exile
1 life from the loam

thoughts?

pridemage/ooze/teeg numbers are where I am weary… i want multiples of all of them.

Stuhl
01-21-2014, 04:00 AM
I don't like 4 SFM as it does not do anything in a later game. I would say -1 (or even -2) and +1 scryb ranger (+1 mindcensor or +1 SoFaI).

lavafrogg
01-21-2014, 04:12 AM
I don't like 4 SFM as it does not do anything in a later game. I would say -1 (or even -2) and +1 scryb ranger (+1 mindcensor or +1 SoFaI).

I'm trying to go as aggressive as possible. Mom into SFM is pretty win as is the ability to harvest swords early in the game.

allek
01-21-2014, 04:53 AM
This is a rough draft of what I'll be running post-BNG:

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Green Sun’s Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

This is almost exactly what I plan on running. I'd probably go for 3/3 Thalia/Spirit though too see how much redundancy we actually need.
I've played 2 Phyrexian Revoker maindeck (and 2 Pithing Needle SB) for over a year now and they just keep getting better and better, even more so now that RUG is being played less.

The problems I see with this list is that it's extremely sensitive to Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution but there's no way around that besides playing tight and not overcommitting to the board. Also, the deck becomes incredibly focused on two-drops which might cause some un-smooth curving and weakness to Engineered explosives.

Another idea I'm throwing around is trying a singleton Derevi, Empyrial Tactician as a GSZ target (also castable via Hierarch and Cavern: wizard). That guy seems awesome at creating tempo, take this example:

You have MoR, KotR and four mana and GSZ in hand.

1. Go fetch Derevi, give the knight protection and untap the mom with the ETB trigger.
2. Swing with the protected knight and untap it on damage.
3. Profit. You came in for damage and can still use the knight and the mother, either as a blocker or for wastelanding/acceleration and it get's even better next turn when Derevi can swing as well creating even more untap effects.

Should the boardstate be different, Derevi can come in and tap a blocker, and each creature you connect with can untap even more stuff. The advantage grows with more creatures and becomes even more ridiculous with Scryb Ranger. Yes, this is a win-more cards but it has a lot of applications in creating small pockets of onboard tricks and those are usually the best ways to win. Remember people, this is not a beatdown deck, our plan is to create board advantage little by little by disrupting our opponent and outclassing his permanents.

Deckerator
01-21-2014, 05:52 AM
What about going back to the Loyal Retainers plan ?
Playing a discard like fauna shaman or sth. else and as the big creature i would add elesh norn. Kills perfectly TNN and makes your deck stronger against all of those -1/-1 effects.
In my opinion adding a playset of Loyal Retainers and some fatties would be a nice idea.
What are you thinking about?

Zilong
01-21-2014, 08:37 AM
What about going back to the Loyal Retainers plan ?
Playing a discard like fauna shaman or sth. else and as the big creature i would add elesh norn. Kills perfectly TNN and makes your deck stronger against all of those -1/-1 effects.
In my opinion adding a playset of Loyal Retainers and some fatties would be a nice idea.
What are you thinking about?

I want test 3 fauna 1 elesh 1 retainers + other single hate (3/1 new sprit)like old fauna maverick before, no more because it's not so good against shaman and combo, and RIP for both retainers plan and knight

lavafrogg
01-23-2014, 01:05 AM
I'm trying to decide between punishing mav and straight GW w Thalia for a tourney on Sunday.... Thoughts?

Moroklumpen
01-23-2014, 04:01 AM
I'm thinking I want to try a vial build now that we get Spirit. Probably one with an E-Tutor bullet board. The thought of vialing in Spirit in response to Brainstorm or something similar is just too sweet to pass up. What do you guys think?

ironclad8690
01-24-2014, 04:00 PM
I will most likely be doing this as well, the hard part is trying to find the cards to cut.

If we look at a recent vial list with success, my inclination is to replace thalia with spirit, as a 3 or 4 of.

Reason being: they sort of stop the same strategies, where spirit is better vs cantrip decks/Elves/Engine decks that draw a ton of cards, and thalia is better against mana tight decks that try to win quickly.

I actually think spirit of the labyrinth will fit the best into a punishing maverick deck, as it is a hatebear that we can play that doesn't hurt our own spells/engines. I will most likely replace aven mindcensor or stoneforge to accommodate the space.

DragoFireheart
01-24-2014, 05:13 PM
I sorta find it ironic that SotL hurts non-Brainstorm cards far more.

Glimpse of Nature
Ad Nauseam
Ancestral Vision
Griselbrand


Not to say it DOESN'T impact Brainstorm, but I feel that other decks are more negatively impacted by it.

Juice11
01-24-2014, 05:19 PM
I sorta find it ironic that SotL hurts non-Brainstorm cards far more.

Glimpse of Nature
Ad Nauseam
Ancestral Vision
Griselbrand


Not to say it DOESN'T impact Brainstorm, but I feel that other decks are more negatively impacted by it.

It doesn't hurt Ad Nauseam. You are just revealing and putting them into hand, not technically drawing them.


It hurts brainstorm a lot, but I still think it will be a 4 of in decks that previously ran it. You might see some more SDT running around too.

I'm curious about how this works with Sylvan library?

DragoFireheart
01-24-2014, 05:20 PM
It doesn't hurt Ad Nauseam. You are just revealing and putting them into hand, not technically drawing them.


Ah, good call. I seem to be forgetting about these cards...

lavafrogg
01-24-2014, 08:57 PM
I'm on punishing mav for tomorrow with 4 main deck pridemages and 3 mindcensors. My TNN plan is to keep the equipment off the table and just race it DnT style.

I am considering bolt over swords for the same reason.