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View Full Version : [Deck] GW/x Maverick



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vennie
07-31-2014, 10:02 AM
As an Elves player Bitterblossom has worked nicely for me against UW/UB durdle decks. They have a hard time answering one and you can commit less stuff to the board while maintaining pressure and forcing the Terminus. If you land Blossom+Teeg, they're pretty much gone I think, barring EE@2

You realize that EE is uncastable with teeg on the table right? I think you should be more worried about STP on teeg into wear//tear i think.

door
08-01-2014, 08:58 AM
Seems like a good idea, I'll test it. 2-of in the sideboard?

I'd try 2 copies in SB + an E-tutor to raise the chance of playing it on t2.


I used to play it in a small Enlightened Tutor package and it often felt slow and narrow. If you didn't resolve it on turn two then it often took far too long to get online and it's really only useful (to any degree) in the Miracles matchup. It wasn't nearly reliable enough in any match with Abrupt Decay.

I mentioned Bitterblossom in my last post and I'm curious if anyone has any experience with the card. Functionally it's pretty similar to Luminarch Ascension against miracles and I'd imagine it's a bit less hit or miss.

Generally the cards that are on my radar for dealing with Miracles are Gaddock Teeg, Sylvan Safekeeper, Pithing Needle.
Sometimes I'll want to throw a bone to Choke, but generally the combination of Mother, Pridemage, and Abrupt Decay has been effective for me depending on how experienced your opponent is in the matchup.
The narrow application of Ascension is it's biggest problem, that's true. What I currently see in our local Russian scene, is the constant increase of Miracles and the fall of Jund and deathblade, so it might be just to put some more cards in against Miracles matchup.

Blossom is more functional, but it is not as strong against resolved Entreat and Terminus. Not mentioning the black splash, which I'd like to avoid.

There are some dedicated to Miracles matchup cards like Choke, which are as well rarely used in other matchups and I thinking about Ascension in that slot, not instead but in addition to Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle and others.

I'll try to find time for testing it and write here when I have any interesting results. I'll have to decide though, in which shell I shall try it in; Vial or Zenith version...

bakofried
08-01-2014, 01:11 PM
I am considering not keeping any cards especially in the board for Miracles. Thoughtseize is good, Surgical is good, Teeg and needle are good, but all have broad applications.

diakocjay
08-01-2014, 11:38 PM
I'd try 2 copies in SB + an E-tutor to raise the chance of playing it on t2.


The narrow application of Ascension is it's biggest problem, that's true. What I currently see in our local Russian scene, is the constant increase of Miracles and the fall of Jund and deathblade, so it might be just to put some more cards in against Miracles matchup.

Blossom is more functional, but it is not as strong against resolved Entreat and Terminus. Not mentioning the black splash, which I'd like to avoid.

There are some dedicated to Miracles matchup cards like Choke, which are as well rarely used in other matchups and I thinking about Ascension in that slot, not instead but in addition to Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle and others.

I'll try to find time for testing it and write here when I have any interesting results. I'll have to decide though, in which shell I shall try it in; Vial or Zenith version...

Since we're on that topic, what ever happened to Vial Maverick? Most of the tournament results I see online used GW/b or straight G/W? And to think that we now have access to "Spirit of the Labyrinth".

door
08-02-2014, 06:08 AM
Since we're on that topic, what ever happened to Vial Maverick? Most of the tournament results I see online used GW/b or straight G/W? And to think that we now have access to "Spirit of the Labyrinth".
The vial build has never been popular during the last years. Can't tell about everyone, but I stopped playing maverick, when realised that I can't beat TNN, sometimes even with Marite Liege. At the same time all bug decks started packing tonns of TNN hate in form of Lilianas and Golgari Charms, which obviously was a knock down for Maverick. Gwb builds have more options to struggle TNN, miracles and combo, so they could still have chances in the right meta. But I never liked splashing colors in Maverick.

The Spirit is not a strong solution because it blocks using Sylvan Library. On the other hand, we now have not only them, but also Council's Judgement and the new disenchant elf, which is better than the Sliver. I believe, it is not enough still, but one has to try to be sure.

Zombie
08-04-2014, 05:53 AM
You realize that EE is uncastable with teeg on the table right? I think you should be more worried about STP on teeg into wear//tear i think.

True, hehe. I haven't played with Teeg since adopting Bitterblossom in the board. Blanking 8 of my power cards feels bad :P

bakofried
08-11-2014, 10:02 AM
Chris Scagnelli (Warden on Salvation) made top 16 at SCG Syracuse with Dark Maverick. His maindeck mirrors the lists we've seen do well (4 Thalia, 2 Mystic, 2 Library, 0 Decay) while his sideboard adopted something we've seen out of the Spanish lists: a 3/2 split of Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge. He's made comments that he wished the third Persecution was a Qasali Pridemage.

Thoughts?

Koby
08-11-2014, 01:42 PM
Chris Scagnelli (Warden on Salvation) made top 16 at SCG Syracuse with Dark Maverick. His maindeck mirrors the lists we've seen do well (4 Thalia, 2 Mystic, 2 Library, 0 Decay) while his sideboard adopted something we've seen out of the Spanish lists: a 3/2 split of Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge. He's made comments that he wished the third Persecution was a Qasali Pridemage.

Thoughts?

Looks similar to the list I piloted in SCG Somerset back in May (and low-and-behold, a nearly similar metagame of Blue / Delver decks).

Here's a side by side comparison:

Cards Jacob Kory 5/25/2014 Chris Scagnelli 8/10/14
Deathrite Shaman 3 3
Dryad Arbor 1 1
Gaddock Teeg 1 1
Knight of the Reliquary 4 4
Mother of Runes 3 4
Noble Hierarch 2 2
Qasali Pridemage 3 2
Scavenging Ooze 1 2
Scryb Ranger 1 0
Sigarda, Host of Herons 1 0
Stoneforge Mystic 2 2
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4 4
Sword of Fire and Ice 1 1
Sword of Light and Shadow 0 1
Umezawa's Jitte 1 1
Sylvan Library 2 2
Green Sun's Zenith 4 4
Swords to Plowshares 4 4
Bayou 2 2
Dark Depths 1 1
Forest 2 2
Gaea's Cradle 1 0
Horizon Canopy 1 0
Karakas 1 1
Plains 1 1
Savannah 3 2
Scrubland 0 1
Thespian's Stage 1 1
Verdant Catacombs 3 3
Wasteland 3 4
Windswept Heath 4 4
Sideboard - -
Ethersworn Canonist 2 2
Gaddock Teeg 0 1
Wilt-Leaf Liege 0 2
Choke 2 0
Oblivion Ring 1 0
Rest in Peace 0 2
Crop Rotation 1 0
Life from the Loam 1 0
Path to Exile 1 0
Thoughtseize 3 3
Toxic Deluge 0 2
Zealous Persecution 2 3
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad 1 0
Bojuka Bog 1 0


Basically, if you're expecting plenty of SFM, run more QPM. I like flare, so I added Sigarda (expected Liliana and Annihilator triggers). Still not sure if Toxic Deluge is good against Tribal (play E-plague otherwise). Wilt-Leaf Liege seems to also be against Liliana & avoids Abrupt Decay; but is still vulnerable to removal on its own. That's why I prefer Sigarda.

Warden
08-12-2014, 12:52 PM
Hello Source community. LONG-time lurker, first-time contributor. I used to be the Legacy mod over at 'Salvation. Been a part of the greater CNY legacy meta for 7 years. Fair warning, I wrote a book. Thereís a lot to talk about.

==
Deck
I rearranged how SCG lists my 75. Source: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71463#thisweekend-tab

Maverick :: Chris Scagnelli :: 10th Place @ SCG: Syracuse
Creatures (25)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (13)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Zealous Persecution

Iíve been on a roll this year with Maverick. Iím a decent player in an extremely talented CNY meta. Several months of prize support across ďmonthlyĒ events and now this 10th place finish at a SCG Open (tied 8th place but had bad breakers) makes me feel I have some credibility in what Maverick is doing. Had attendance been lower, my X-1-1 would have made Top 8. Life goes on.
==
About my list

Before anyone asks, no, I donít test or play MTG too often. Occasionally Iíll binge on cockatrice to practice or test out ideas (vacations, prep for a big event) to get the rust off. I work and workout everyday. MTG is just my hobby.

Maverick wins because itís just plain annoying. It has cards that, in a vacuum, are cute-yet-disruptive. The synergy of annoyances stack rather quick in your favor. I respectfully disagree with some of Kobyís deck choices (SCG NJ) like Sigarda and 3x Wastelands + lots of utility stuff. K.I.S.S ó- Maverick is insane because you have killer consistency of Mom, Thalia, Wasteland, KotR, Zenith working together. Going back to the deckís roots of 4x ďcore cardsĒ paid dividends. Then thereís Thalia-Wasteland being your bread and butter. You want to ensure Thalia-Wasteland is a thing.

The inspiration for my decklist came from Thomas Herzog, who Iíve complimented several times on Salvation. Never met or talked to him but his list is THE definitive ďstock listĒ for Zenith-based Maverick IMHO. Post #5155 with 1mpulse (friend of Herzog) got me to see Maverick in a different way. Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=807555&viewfull=1#post807555. A lot of what 1mpulse said in that post made a lot of sense. This is where I started to see Library more as a ďfinisher/trump cardĒ than just ďutilityĒ. I was also baffled to see 0 abrupt decay and a miser Choke. That couldnít possibly work on paper. But the more I gyrated towards their list, the more I felt these guys saw something I didnít.

For Sunday, I took the risk of cutting Gaeaís Cradle and Fetch #8 for DD/Stage. Source members commented how youíre not even gaining ďcolorless landsĒ by making said swap. In the opener, both packages function the same. In the mid- or late-game, DD/Stage has considerably more upside, letting you pressure out of nowhere. Throughout the day, I won a handful of games by generating a 20/20 flying indestructible token.

==
Report
I do this from memory and the life-total pad. During the playerís meeting, I found myself sitting between 2 dredge players. I loved my list except 2 flex SB parts. I debated about Armageddon, Surgical Extraction, or Rest in Peace. I turned the the guy on my right as asked, ďWhatís worse for you as a GY deck? Surgical or Rest in Peace?Ē He answered, ďSurgical is annoying when your deck needs the grave but Rest in Peace is a much bigger pain.Ē I gotta thank whoever this man was. The last-minute swap from Surgical ó> RIP paid off in later rounds.

Rd. 1 - UWR Patriot w/ Delver, SFM, & TNN [Match Loss]
We chat at the beginning and I feel out the kind of player Iím facing. Heís borrowing a friendís deck and doesnít really play Legacy (but understands how to pilot the deck). Ironically, we talk about sleeves and marked cards/cheating while shuffling (foreshadowing here).

Game 1 - I nip away at him. He eventually drops a TNN. I assemble DD/Stage and just lethal him the next turn.

Game 2 - I cut some stuff for the ZP and perhaps a toxic. He drops Delver turn 1. I waste. He blind-flips delver and basically rides that as I canít find removal. Drew crap across the game.

During this game, I call out my opponent for having marked cards. Heís got metallic blue sleeves with what can best be described as ďbubblesĒ (imagine a staple tucked between the back of the Magic card and the color-part of the sleeve). A few of his cards have this clear as day in the middle the card-back. A few judges come over, take his deck away (checking for patterns, ask us questions privately, and ultimately rule his cards ARE marked.
At this, Iím told there my opponent has a warning and that play should continue. Iím like, ďnot to be rude, but may I appeal this to the head judge?Ē. I know you get warnings but I thought cheating at this level meant a game-loss. The head judge comes over. We speak in private and I shake his hand while politely accepting his confirmation of the marked cards constituting a warning. Iím not one to nickel-and-dime my opponents, but marked cards is fucking cheating, okay? This opponent will be forced to re-sleeve next round.

Later in the game, my opponent has a ďdexterity issueĒ ó during the draw phase. He ďaccidentallyĒ lifts the 2 highest cards on the top of his library. He does not place two cards in his hand, however, his quick fiddling and eyes at the deck send a red flag that heís got advanced knowledge. I call judge again. More talking and yet another visit from the head judge. Because Iím an honest player, I give my opponent credit: I cannot confirm whether my opponent saw the next card ó but he was certainly looking at the top 2 cards in some capacity. It all happened fast. The head judge thanks me for being honest. I made the case that this is my opponentís second cheating-type behavior and now Iím really concerned. Do these two behaviors work towards a game-loss ďupgrade pathĒ? Apparently they do not.

We have a whopping +14 minutes going into game 3 due to judge calls. At this rate, the event will wait on us. Thereís 10 minutes and change on the natural clock, meaning weíll have plenty of time to play the round out.

Hereís where my morning goes to shit. Iím on the play and draw a 7-card clunker. Lots of colors: including QPM, ZP, and STP. No lands. As I look over my hand, a young player I am friendly with sits down next to me. Iím going to take the mull but I flash him the hand. This kid nods. I donít think I wasted anytime in announcing ďmullĒ. I peek at the top of the deck to see a wasteland (good call on mulligans). 5 seconds tick by. While shuffling to draw a 6-card mulligan, my opponent is screaming for a judge.

Long story short, he claims Iím seeking ďoutside supportĒ on the hand. Are you fucking kidding me!? Head judge comes by yet again. This time thereís a back and forth (he came to table, went away, came back quickly). Itís deemed I will be given a match loss for outside support. I appeal, please my case, and chat with the head judge in private. The head judge actually understands where Iím coming from. He takes my word that I had a shit hand with no lands. A true 7-card clunker someone would mulligan 100% of the time and no outside assistance was intended. However, the kid ís reaction to my hand put me in the wrong. I could have appealed to the other head judge but from the way this guy was talking, the verdict would stand. Iím devastated because this is apparently way worse, even with my plead, than the 2 instances of cheating from my opponent. He plays on through 2 acts of cheating and Iím hit with no warning or other penalty (ie; double-mulligan from 7 to 5 or something). Auto-match loss.

During this time, we gathered a large crowd. Many Source friends are starring at me, the judges, and the opponent in disbelief. The kid who sat next to me was also handed an auto-match loss for round 2 (mine was for Rd. 1 only).

**Aside: I really wanna make it clear ó the 7-hand had 0 lands. My mulligan would occur 100% of the time. I wish there could have been a warning or even some other penalty like a double-mulligan (like going 7 to 5 directly). Something other than match loss. This is especially alarming after my opponent was confirmed to be cheating with marked cards. His demeanor over the match changed once I called him out on the ďdexterityĒ thing. Iíll keep things civil by saying I hope I never run into this crook again.
I hold nothing against the judges, head judge, or SCG. A younger version of myself would have raged out. It was just very very unfortunate to start my event and day with this. Additionally, the kid who sat next to me probably felt crushed. I told him several times I donít hate him + MTG is a game. Weíll both learn from this experience. He kept checking in on me throughout the day and I said the same thing. Itís no big deal, even if it costs me the event. I have maybe 10 years on him. This wonít be the death of me lol.

On another note, I appreciate the support I got from the crowd and Source friends. Everyone appeared to be on my side and several of you listened to me vent/bitch. Iím grateful for the support.

Round 2 - UWr Miracles [Win]
As we transition to round 2, a regular-level judge takes me aside to just talk things out. Iím not in rage mode more than I am in vent/bitching mode. Emotionally feel awful. I canít recall this judgeís name but he was especially helpful. The complaining helped me regain composure.

The player I sit across from was near me during the previous round. I know heís got terminus, which tips me off that heís on Miracles.
Game 1 - I ride Thalia + Sword of Fire and Ice to victory. He sent my first Thalia plowiní but thatís why we run 4x.

Game 2 - I outlast A LOT of attrition but canít close. He STPíed both Gaddock Teegs and used 2x Terminus + 1x Verdict. Yikes. Snapcaster also occured. I may have lost 2 thalia in the process. Idr.

Game 3 - I run through him. Sylvan Library is just monstrous. He made a weird play involving a fetch with SDT 2/3 of the way into the game and said afterwards that was his punt. He was a good player. On paper I was up against a brick wall. I believe Karma rewarded me for being polite and respectful towards the judges round 1.

Round 3 - 4C Deathrite w/ TNN [Tie]
One of the nicest players to face in competition. Heís super chill. Became Fb friends after the event :)

Game 1 - I lose quickly as his midgame demolishes mine. All the good things a greedy manabase can get you.

Game 2 - We go back and forth. Like ďwtf kind of luck do you have to topdeck thatĒ type back and forth. I opened with double wasteland but he answered with eventually finding his own wasteland, decaying something I had, etc. I kill him (5 life) while I myself sit at 3. Luck.

Game 3 - Nobody can outright win during turns. However, if we had infinite time, he certainly had me. We end in a tie with him having Jace and Liliana to my nothing. Iím at 11, heís at 23. I was clearly going down a bad road. Had something + KotR in my hand IIRC (would have died quickly to double walkers).

Round 4 - MUD [Win]
Going into the match, Iím 1-1-1 with possible daylight if I play smart.

Game 1 - Pharmacist comes over to talk with both of us. We have a small discussion and actually relax as we become acquainted with one another. The one real misplay of the day: I open with land -> Noble. He opens with Sol land -> Greaves. This is where rust kicks in. Iím staring at 3 mana on turn 2 and have a choice between QPM (safe, smart) or KotR (aggressive). Like a dumbass, I go with KotR thinking I can take out his mana on my turn 3. Opponent drops Metalworker, greaves-equips, shows a hand of brown, makes a boatload of mana, drops blightsteel, greaves-equips, railroads me for 9 poison. No STP in hand means I scoop.

Game 2 - I pull Gaddock and Moms in favor of Thoughtseize and Deluge. Mom does nothing against colorless. Gaddock ainít stopping this caliber of big stupid things. I drop mana accel and he drops Trini. I wasteland and roll from there. He canít do too much.

Game 3 - I nearly lose the match after controlling his lands for a while. At some point later in the game heís got a tapped Monolith, some nonbasics, a darksteel land, graves, and the staff of lots-of-weird-options. Thoughtseizes throughout the game denied him any real threats.
I have DRS, QPM, Thalia, and a nice sized KotR. I had the choice to wasteland tutor or swing. With nothing in his hand, I decide to chop him down from 18 to 11. He topdecks wurmcoil. Crap. Moves to equip it with graves ó> I QPM nuke in-response to convert the 6/6 into its 3/3 offspring. He swings with the deathtouch one (thanks to greaves) and I fall to 12. Meanwhile, Iím sitting on Deluge. I use my dorks for value, deluge for 3 (wiping the board excpet KotR), and use my girl for the beats. About 2 or 3 turns progress with, my opponent tapping down KotR on upkeep. I respond by land-tutoring in-response for wastelands. Eventually, my opponent lacks the mana to untap monolith, tap my KotR on upkeep, or play threats. He extends the hand and wishes me luck. Great guy.

Round 5 - Goblins [Win]
Game 1 - He opens with Plateau -> Vial. Goblins perhaps? Maybe some RW weenie/denial hate-deck? Iím not sure. Several more turns go by. No creatures but vial #1 (2 counters) looms alongside vial #2 (0 counters). He EOT flashes in Thalia, drops cavern naming ďgoblinsĒ and the little green men punish me as I draw little to no pressure.

Game 2 - I win thanks to pressure. No real details to discuss.

Game 3 - This is a tight one. The game is in my favor for the first 1/3. Then he manages to Ringleader-chain crap in. About 2/3 through the game, Iím on the backfoot trying to mitigate damage. I need something big. Boom - KotR. I play smart and avoid lethal. At some point I have an option to attack (pressure, cut into his life total) or drop a second KotR. I had a feeling I should have played KotR #2 but instead swing. I leave dorks and a QPM + Arbor to defend. He Pyrokenetics the QPM and a Stingscourger in the dark bounces KotR. I replay the KotR and hold on tight as Jitte is in the hand. Some tight plays help me hunker down at 11. I manage to dig out of the mess by having Jitte eat his team alongside a ZP. We go to turns. On ďextra turn 5Ē I have 2 active KotR (one holding jitte) and Arbor. Heís got matron back on defense ó sitting at 8 life. I zenith for 2. Only finding Scooze as a relevant card. I declare attacks with only arbor and KotR #1 while Scooze and KotR #2 sit back. He misplay by letting KotR #1 through. I activate KotR #2 to tutor. Sacrificing Arbor (+1 land) for a wasteland, then nuking my own dual (+2). These extra 3 lands allow me to swing in for lethal while my opponent kicks himself. Reaaaaally lucky here. I donít think my opponent saw lethal lines of play.

Rd. 6 - BUG Delver [Win]
My opponentís level of friendliness hinged upon how he was doing in the match.

Game 1 - Rides delver. Stops anything I have.

Game 2 - I bring in RIP, Deluge, Wilt-Leaf. I assemble all the hate I need: Wastelands early, Thalia, Scooze, Sylvan, RIP. He decays the RIP but his goyf were miniscule. He scoops them up when he sees how much bigger my team is than his.

Game 3 - Trop -> Delver. I Wasteland. He canít blind flip. I pull Thalia as he canít assemble mana. Delver canít flip. I assemble a small team but heís really fighting to play stuff (manages to pay 2 to Ponder). He flips delver but it isnít until I have considerable pressure. The finishing blow came as I sit on Sword of Light and Shadow, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Wilt-Lead in Hand. He Hymns. Hurray Randoms. I chuck a sword and WLL comes to play. He curses and scoops. Thatís why we play WLL folks.

Rd. 7 - Junk/Maverick Hybrid [Win]
As we take out our decks, he reveals Liliana (I flash DRS). Not sure what heís on exactly but thereís trouble brewing. Another solid contender for one of the nicest players Iíve ever faced. I actually wished he talked more because he had a soothing baseball announcer-type voice.

Game 1 - I really just try to gain information: Lili, Goyfs, Savannahs, Mom, Thoughtseize. HmmÖinteresting. His friend walks over as I assemble DD/Stage and trolls him by whipping out a Marit Lage token for me to use. We both chuckle.

Game 2 - He gets Bob online and takes a bit of damage because of it. Then I see heís got Souls. Crap. Late in the game, Iím at 13 to his 6. His card advantage by this point is insane. With no DRS, I canít race him. Just when thereís a small chance I can punish his confidant triggers, he goes SFM -> Batterskull. I scoop because heís got me on the lifelink.

Game 3 - I play tight and take some early damage. At some point he Oblivion Rings my QPM (to hold off his eventual jitte). I manage to just beatdown through him regardless. I canít remember much but the life total pad has me stopping at 15 while he goes 18 -> 17 - > 14 - 13 -> 11 -> 8 -> 7 -> 6 -> 1. I do recall him making a last-ditch effort and kinda stabilizing at 1. He shipped the turn only to have me DRS him for the win. I get the handshake and a good luck. Letís ride the X-1-1 train.

Rd. 8 - PG Pox/Loam
At this point, itís being discussed how X-1-1 will probably not make Top 8. However, this issue comes into contention as everyone except the 1 and 2 seed are in a ďplay to get inĒ scenario. Iím not good with figuring out breakers so I just push for being a potential dark horse. My opponent and I are apparently the only X-1-1ís during the final round so thereís hope. Regardless, we were all walking away with money and the tension certainly left the table. This was the most enjoyable match because for the most part, we all ďmade itĒ.

Game 1 - I am not sure whether Iím facing Nic Fit or Loam. I lead with the Jedi move of Forest -> DRS. He cabal therapies ďWirewood symbioteĒ only to see the Maverick Shell. It was over quickly thereafter. Didnít see any creatures but I figured he therapyíed hoping to hold off elf combo.

Game 2 - I see the Loam work in action. Certainly a loam deck. His first 2 dredge-loam chains are insane. I call a goofy and friendly time out to look at my sideboard. RIP smiling right at me from the deck box. Yup, letís do game 3 because thereís a really important card thatís not in my deck. The both of us + onlookers laugh at this.

Game 3 - I Thoughtseize turn 1 to see heís got double Liliana + Spinning Darkness. Nifty card. I pull one of the lilianas and pass. He doesnít do much (slow starter). I work hard to drop dorks and Scooze. Most of these cards just die to sacrifice effects and removal but Library keeps me chuggling along. Iím stalled on Plains, Bayou, Wasteland and canít shoot him down because I need the mana. However, I cross a threshold at some point and break the game open. My life total notes have me at 17 while he goes 18 -> 17 -> 16 -> 14 -> 12 -> 11 -> 8 -> scoop.

==
Comments
Holy crap I rallied from 0-1 to 6-1-1. Maybe I have a chance? 8th slot (burn) edged me and 9th place out by a very close 2%. While it sucks I didnít make top 8 for the controversial round 1 situation, Iím REALLY proud of going x-1-1, representing Maverick, and playing out of my mind. If the room wasnít borderline 9-rounds, Iíd be in top 8. But itís not a sour grapes situationÖperhaps the matchloss paved the way for a playable bracket. If I won round 1 perhaps Iíd get slaughtered later on. Itís never a good thing to play the hypothetical game. Make lemonade when youíre dealt lemons.

Sideboard was EXCELLENT. I came expecting to beat Miracles and Delver and did just that. I was certainly conceding the Sneak/Show match but looked to trump BUG with Wilt-Leaf. It all paid off. WIlt-Leaf is a response to BUG, -1/-1 sweepers, and Miracles (4 mana is awkward for them + the anthem effect means you avoid over-extending).

2x Sylvan Library is legit. There were many times I took 4 to the dome to keep the pressure going (several of them = drawing a fetch + threat).

KotR > any fair creature. Anyone who bashes KotR (ďwehh wehh run goyfs insteadĒ) changed their tune while they watched me.

==
Changes
I want a second basic Plains. No idea where to make this cut lol. I donít want to drop to 2 bayou 0 scrublands. The mana worked but there were times I wish I had 4 basics (the sweet spot). Everything else was great.

I want a 3rd QPM somewhere. Herzog running 4x is overkill but 3x is important

QPM #3 could be ZP #3 in the sideboard. However, this is going to fight PTE/Decay/Sword of X&Y #3 (continue reading below).

The weakest card all day was Sword of Light and Shadow. Seriously. On paper, it is fantastic. However, I used the other toys all day. The one time I may have equipped somebody to it, the game was already over. 3x equipment main is correct, but the 3rd one is now in contention.

Thinking out loud, Batterskull is a clunky win-more. I donít like it. I am considering the lesser-used Body/Mind or War/Peace mainly for their respective color-protections. Both have merits (U/G for aggressive pushes and W/R for needed anti-removal). Unfortunately, War/Peace has crappy triggers. Body/Mind is actually attractive all-around pick. Maybe Iím onto something. Not sure.

*I did fool around with the NO-Maverick idea prior to the event and itís too clunky for my tastes. 5x Sweepers > SB NO package. Thalia and Teeg > NO in the main.

I'm willing to field any additional questions. There are A LOT of quality players on these boards and I never felt I had the resume to post here. Hopefully we can get the ball rolling for Maverick players again!

sdematt
08-12-2014, 03:21 PM
I've been trying this list out over the last few days:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap

I've played Maverick in the past, and I know most builds are leaning heavily towards GWb, and I understand why. I just want to try something different since I just want to see if we can innovate.

I know playing 0 DRS might be a mistake, but I don't want to eat lands all day. Exalted is pretty sweet, and being able to cast my stuff without lands in the yard seems nifty. Yes, I know the power of DRS.

I'm playing Tracker since I've always really liked him. Kitschy, I know, but he did excellent work when I used him, especially in the midrange-hell matchups.

Safekeeper is there to promote Gaddock Teeg lock against Miracles, as well as being able to sac all my lands to alpha with a Knight of the Reliquary.

I wanted to try War Monk and Edric since I haven't played them in a while. Testing will see how it goes.

I'm not running Marit Lage since I despise the combo. I hate opening it in my hand and searching for it is painful unless you get both pieces on the same turn.

It's likely not an ideal list, but I want to try Bant Maverick again and see what happens. It's likely a tad weaker to TNN, but SFM really helps as we all know.

-Matt

lordofthepit
08-12-2014, 03:50 PM
Hello Source community. LONG-time lurker, first-time contributor. I used to be the Legacy mod over at 'Salvation. Been a part of the greater CNY legacy meta for 7 years. Fair warning, I wrote a book. Thereís a lot to talk about.

==
Deck
I rearranged how SCG lists my 75. Source: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71463#thisweekend-tab

Maverick :: Chris Scagnelli :: 10th Place @ SCG: Syracuse
Creatures (25)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (13)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Rest in Peace
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Zealous Persecution

Iíve been on a roll this year with Maverick. Iím a decent player in an extremely talented CNY meta. Several months of prize support across ďmonthlyĒ events and now this 10th place finish at a SCG Open (tied 8th place but had bad breakers) makes me feel I have some credibility in what Maverick is doing. Had attendance been lower, my X-1-1 would have made Top 8. Life goes on.
==
About my list

Before anyone asks, no, I donít test or play MTG too often. Occasionally Iíll binge on cockatrice to practice or test out ideas (vacations, prep for a big event) to get the rust off. I work and workout everyday. MTG is just my hobby.

Maverick wins because itís just plain annoying. It has cards that, in a vacuum, are cute-yet-disruptive. The synergy of annoyances stack rather quick in your favor. I respectfully disagree with some of Kobyís deck choices (SCG NJ) like Sigarda and 3x Wastelands + lots of utility stuff. K.I.S.S ó- Maverick is insane because you have killer consistency of Mom, Thalia, Wasteland, KotR, Zenith working together. Going back to the deckís roots of 4x ďcore cardsĒ paid dividends. Then thereís Thalia-Wasteland being your bread and butter. You want to ensure Thalia-Wasteland is a thing.

The inspiration for my decklist came from Thomas Herzog, who Iíve complimented several times on Salvation. Never met or talked to him but his list is THE definitive ďstock listĒ for Zenith-based Maverick IMHO. Post #5155 with 1mpulse (friend of Herzog) got me to see Maverick in a different way. Link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=807555&viewfull=1#post807555. A lot of what 1mpulse said in that post made a lot of sense. This is where I started to see Library more as a ďfinisher/trump cardĒ than just ďutilityĒ. I was also baffled to see 0 abrupt decay and a miser Choke. That couldnít possibly work on paper. But the more I gyrated towards their list, the more I felt these guys saw something I didnít.

For Sunday, I took the risk of cutting Gaeaís Cradle and Fetch #8 for DD/Stage. Source members commented how youíre not even gaining ďcolorless landsĒ by making said swap. In the opener, both packages function the same. In the mid- or late-game, DD/Stage has considerably more upside, letting you pressure out of nowhere. Throughout the day, I won a handful of games by generating a 20/20 flying indestructible token.

==
Report
I do this from memory and the life-total pad. During the playerís meeting, I found myself sitting between 2 dredge players. I loved my list except 2 flex SB parts. I debated about Armageddon, Surgical Extraction, or Rest in Peace. I turned the the guy on my right as asked, ďWhatís worse for you as a GY deck? Surgical or Rest in Peace?Ē He answered, ďSurgical is annoying when your deck needs the grave but Rest in Peace is a much bigger pain.Ē I gotta thank whoever this man was. The last-minute swap from Surgical ó> RIP paid off in later rounds.

Rd. 1 - UWR Patriot w/ Delver, SFM, & TNN [Match Loss]
We chat at the beginning and I feel out the kind of player Iím facing. Heís borrowing a friendís deck and doesnít really play Legacy (but understands how to pilot the deck). Ironically, we talk about sleeves and marked cards/cheating while shuffling (foreshadowing here).

Game 1 - I nip away at him. He eventually drops a TNN. I assemble DD/Stage and just lethal him the next turn.

Game 2 - I cut some stuff for the ZP and perhaps a toxic. He drops Delver turn 1. I waste. He blind-flips delver and basically rides that as I canít find removal. Drew crap across the game.

During this game, I call out my opponent for having marked cards. Heís got metallic blue sleeves with what can best be described as ďbubblesĒ (imagine a staple tucked between the back of the Magic card and the color-part of the sleeve). A few of his cards have this clear as day in the middle the card-back. A few judges come over, take his deck away (checking for patterns, ask us questions privately, and ultimately rule his cards ARE marked.
At this, Iím told there my opponent has a warning and that play should continue. Iím like, ďnot to be rude, but may I appeal this to the head judge?Ē. I know you get warnings but I thought cheating at this level meant a game-loss. The head judge comes over. We speak in private and I shake his hand while politely accepting his confirmation of the marked cards constituting a warning. Iím not one to nickel-and-dime my opponents, but marked cards is fucking cheating, okay? This opponent will be forced to re-sleeve next round.

Later in the game, my opponent has a ďdexterity issueĒ ó during the draw phase. He ďaccidentallyĒ lifts the 2 highest cards on the top of his library. He does not place two cards in his hand, however, his quick fiddling and eyes at the deck send a red flag that heís got advanced knowledge. I call judge again. More talking and yet another visit from the head judge. Because Iím an honest player, I give my opponent credit: I cannot confirm whether my opponent saw the next card ó but he was certainly looking at the top 2 cards in some capacity. It all happened fast. The head judge thanks me for being honest. I made the case that this is my opponentís second cheating-type behavior and now Iím really concerned. Do these two behaviors work towards a game-loss ďupgrade pathĒ? Apparently they do not.

We have a whopping +14 minutes going into game 3 due to judge calls. At this rate, the event will wait on us. Thereís 10 minutes and change on the natural clock, meaning weíll have plenty of time to play the round out.

Hereís where my morning goes to shit. Iím on the play and draw a 7-card clunker. Lots of colors: including QPM, ZP, and STP. No lands. As I look over my hand, a young player I am friendly with sits down next to me. Iím going to take the mull but I flash him the hand. This kid nods. I donít think I wasted anytime in announcing ďmullĒ. I peek at the top of the deck to see a wasteland (good call on mulligans). 5 seconds tick by. While shuffling to draw a 6-card mulligan, my opponent is screaming for a judge.

Long story short, he claims Iím seeking ďoutside supportĒ on the hand. Are you fucking kidding me!? Head judge comes by yet again. This time thereís a back and forth (he came to table, went away, came back quickly). Itís deemed I will be given a match loss for outside support. I appeal, please my case, and chat with the head judge in private. The head judge actually understands where Iím coming from. He takes my word that I had a shit hand with no lands. A true 7-card clunker someone would mulligan 100% of the time and no outside assistance was intended. However, the kid ís reaction to my hand put me in the wrong. I could have appealed to the other head judge but from the way this guy was talking, the verdict would stand. Iím devastated because this is apparently way worse, even with my plead, than the 2 instances of cheating from my opponent. He plays on through 2 acts of cheating and Iím hit with no warning or other penalty (ie; double-mulligan from 7 to 5 or something). Auto-match loss.

During this time, we gathered a large crowd. Many Source friends are starring at me, the judges, and the opponent in disbelief. The kid who sat next to me was also handed an auto-match loss for round 2 (mine was for Rd. 1 only).

**Aside: I really wanna make it clear ó the 7-hand had 0 lands. My mulligan would occur 100% of the time. I wish there could have been a warning or even some other penalty like a double-mulligan (like going 7 to 5 directly). Something other than match loss. This is especially alarming after my opponent was confirmed to be cheating with marked cards. His demeanor over the match changed once I called him out on the ďdexterityĒ thing. Iíll keep things civil by saying I hope I never run into this crook again.
I hold nothing against the judges, head judge, or SCG. A younger version of myself would have raged out. It was just very very unfortunate to start my event and day with this. Additionally, the kid who sat next to me probably felt crushed. I told him several times I donít hate him + MTG is a game. Weíll both learn from this experience. He kept checking in on me throughout the day and I said the same thing. Itís no big deal, even if it costs me the event. I have maybe 10 years on him. This wonít be the death of me lol.

On another note, I appreciate the support I got from the crowd and Source friends. Everyone appeared to be on my side and several of you listened to me vent/bitch. Iím grateful for the support.

Round 2 - UWr Miracles [Win]
As we transition to round 2, a regular-level judge takes me aside to just talk things out. Iím not in rage mode more than I am in vent/bitching mode. Emotionally feel awful. I canít recall this judgeís name but he was especially helpful. The complaining helped me regain composure.

The player I sit across from was near me during the previous round. I know heís got terminus, which tips me off that heís on Miracles.
Game 1 - I ride Thalia + Sword of Fire and Ice to victory. He sent my first Thalia plowiní but thatís why we run 4x.

Game 2 - I outlast A LOT of attrition but canít close. He STPíed both Gaddock Teegs and used 2x Terminus + 1x Verdict. Yikes. Snapcaster also occured. I may have lost 2 thalia in the process. Idr.

Game 3 - I run through him. Sylvan Library is just monstrous. He made a weird play involving a fetch with SDT 2/3 of the way into the game and said afterwards that was his punt. He was a good player. On paper I was up against a brick wall. I believe Karma rewarded me for being polite and respectful towards the judges round 1.

Round 3 - 4C Deathrite w/ TNN [Tie]
One of the nicest players to face in competition. Heís super chill. Became Fb friends after the event :)

Game 1 - I lose quickly as his midgame demolishes mine. All the good things a greedy manabase can get you.

Game 2 - We go back and forth. Like ďwtf kind of luck do you have to topdeck thatĒ type back and forth. I opened with double wasteland but he answered with eventually finding his own wasteland, decaying something I had, etc. I kill him (5 life) while I myself sit at 3. Luck.

Game 3 - Nobody can outright win during turns. However, if we had infinite time, he certainly had me. We end in a tie with him having Jace and Liliana to my nothing. Iím at 11, heís at 23. I was clearly going down a bad road. Had something + KotR in my hand IIRC (would have died quickly to double walkers).

Round 4 - MUD [Win]
Going into the match, Iím 1-1-1 with possible daylight if I play smart.

Game 1 - Pharmacist comes over to talk with both of us. We have a small discussion and actually relax as we become acquainted with one another. The one real misplay of the day: I open with land -> Noble. He opens with Sol land -> Greaves. This is where rust kicks in. Iím staring at 3 mana on turn 2 and have a choice between QPM (safe, smart) or KotR (aggressive). Like a dumbass, I go with KotR thinking I can take out his mana on my turn 3. Opponent drops Metalworker, greaves-equips, shows a hand of brown, makes a boatload of mana, drops blightsteel, greaves-equips, railroads me for 9 poison. No STP in hand means I scoop.

Game 2 - I pull Gaddock and Moms in favor of Thoughtseize and Deluge. Mom does nothing against colorless. Gaddock ainít stopping this caliber of big stupid things. I drop mana accel and he drops Trini. I wasteland and roll from there. He canít do too much.

Game 3 - I nearly lose the match after controlling his lands for a while. At some point later in the game heís got a tapped Monolith, some nonbasics, a darksteel land, graves, and the staff of lots-of-weird-options. Thoughtseizes throughout the game denied him any real threats.
I have DRS, QPM, Thalia, and a nice sized KotR. I had the choice to wasteland tutor or swing. With nothing in his hand, I decide to chop him down from 18 to 11. He topdecks wurmcoil. Crap. Moves to equip it with graves ó> I QPM nuke in-response to convert the 6/6 into its 3/3 offspring. He swings with the deathtouch one (thanks to greaves) and I fall to 12. Meanwhile, Iím sitting on Deluge. I use my dorks for value, deluge for 3 (wiping the board excpet KotR), and use my girl for the beats. About 2 or 3 turns progress with, my opponent tapping down KotR on upkeep. I respond by land-tutoring in-response for wastelands. Eventually, my opponent lacks the mana to untap monolith, tap my KotR on upkeep, or play threats. He extends the hand and wishes me luck. Great guy.

Round 5 - Goblins [Win]
Game 1 - He opens with Plateau -> Vial. Goblins perhaps? Maybe some RW weenie/denial hate-deck? Iím not sure. Several more turns go by. No creatures but vial #1 (2 counters) looms alongside vial #2 (0 counters). He EOT flashes in Thalia, drops cavern naming ďgoblinsĒ and the little green men punish me as I draw little to no pressure.

Game 2 - I win thanks to pressure. No real details to discuss.

Game 3 - This is a tight one. The game is in my favor for the first 1/3. Then he manages to Ringleader-chain crap in. About 2/3 through the game, Iím on the backfoot trying to mitigate damage. I need something big. Boom - KotR. I play smart and avoid lethal. At some point I have an option to attack (pressure, cut into his life total) or drop a second KotR. I had a feeling I should have played KotR #2 but instead swing. I leave dorks and a QPM + Arbor to defend. He Pyrokenetics the QPM and a Stingscourger in the dark bounces KotR. I replay the KotR and hold on tight as Jitte is in the hand. Some tight plays help me hunker down at 11. I manage to dig out of the mess by having Jitte eat his team alongside a ZP. We go to turns. On ďextra turn 5Ē I have 2 active KotR (one holding jitte) and Arbor. Heís got matron back on defense ó sitting at 8 life. I zenith for 2. Only finding Scooze as a relevant card. I declare attacks with only arbor and KotR #1 while Scooze and KotR #2 sit back. He misplay by letting KotR #1 through. I activate KotR #2 to tutor. Sacrificing Arbor (+1 land) for a wasteland, then nuking my own dual (+2). These extra 3 lands allow me to swing in for lethal while my opponent kicks himself. Reaaaaally lucky here. I donít think my opponent saw lethal lines of play.

Rd. 6 - BUG Delver [Win]
My opponentís level of friendliness hinged upon how he was doing in the match.

Game 1 - Rides delver. Stops anything I have.

Game 2 - I bring in RIP, Deluge, Wilt-Leaf. I assemble all the hate I need: Wastelands early, Thalia, Scooze, Sylvan, RIP. He decays the RIP but his goyf were miniscule. He scoops them up when he sees how much bigger my team is than his.

Game 3 - Trop -> Delver. I Wasteland. He canít blind flip. I pull Thalia as he canít assemble mana. Delver canít flip. I assemble a small team but heís really fighting to play stuff (manages to pay 2 to Ponder). He flips delver but it isnít until I have considerable pressure. The finishing blow came as I sit on Sword of Light and Shadow, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Wilt-Lead in Hand. He Hymns. Hurray Randoms. I chuck a sword and WLL comes to play. He curses and scoops. Thatís why we play WLL folks.

Rd. 7 - Junk/Maverick Hybrid [Win]
As we take out our decks, he reveals Liliana (I flash DRS). Not sure what heís on exactly but thereís trouble brewing. Another solid contender for one of the nicest players Iíve ever faced. I actually wished he talked more because he had a soothing baseball announcer-type voice.

Game 1 - I really just try to gain information: Lili, Goyfs, Savannahs, Mom, Thoughtseize. HmmÖinteresting. His friend walks over as I assemble DD/Stage and trolls him by whipping out a Marit Lage token for me to use. We both chuckle.

Game 2 - He gets Bob online and takes a bit of damage because of it. Then I see heís got Souls. Crap. Late in the game, Iím at 13 to his 6. His card advantage by this point is insane. With no DRS, I canít race him. Just when thereís a small chance I can punish his confidant triggers, he goes SFM -> Batterskull. I scoop because heís got me on the lifelink.

Game 3 - I play tight and take some early damage. At some point he Oblivion Rings my QPM (to hold off his eventual jitte). I manage to just beatdown through him regardless. I canít remember much but the life total pad has me stopping at 15 while he goes 18 -> 17 - > 14 - 13 -> 11 -> 8 -> 7 -> 6 -> 1. I do recall him making a last-ditch effort and kinda stabilizing at 1. He shipped the turn only to have me DRS him for the win. I get the handshake and a good luck. Letís ride the X-1-1 train.

Rd. 8 - PG Pox/Loam
At this point, itís being discussed how X-1-1 will probably not make Top 8. However, this issue comes into contention as everyone except the 1 and 2 seed are in a ďplay to get inĒ scenario. Iím not good with figuring out breakers so I just push for being a potential dark horse. My opponent and I are apparently the only X-1-1ís during the final round so thereís hope. Regardless, we were all walking away with money and the tension certainly left the table. This was the most enjoyable match because for the most part, we all ďmade itĒ.

Game 1 - I am not sure whether Iím facing Nic Fit or Loam. I lead with the Jedi move of Forest -> DRS. He cabal therapies ďWirewood symbioteĒ only to see the Maverick Shell. It was over quickly thereafter. Didnít see any creatures but I figured he therapyíed hoping to hold off elf combo.

Game 2 - I see the Loam work in action. Certainly a loam deck. His first 2 dredge-loam chains are insane. I call a goofy and friendly time out to look at my sideboard. RIP smiling right at me from the deck box. Yup, letís do game 3 because thereís a really important card thatís not in my deck. The both of us + onlookers laugh at this.

Game 3 - I Thoughtseize turn 1 to see heís got double Liliana + Spinning Darkness. Nifty card. I pull one of the lilianas and pass. He doesnít do much (slow starter). I work hard to drop dorks and Scooze. Most of these cards just die to sacrifice effects and removal but Library keeps me chuggling along. Iím stalled on Plains, Bayou, Wasteland and canít shoot him down because I need the mana. However, I cross a threshold at some point and break the game open. My life total notes have me at 17 while he goes 18 -> 17 -> 16 -> 14 -> 12 -> 11 -> 8 -> scoop.

==
Comments
Holy crap I rallied from 0-1 to 6-1-1. Maybe I have a chance? 8th slot (burn) edged me and 9th place out by a very close 2%. While it sucks I didnít make top 8 for the controversial round 1 situation, Iím REALLY proud of going x-1-1, representing Maverick, and playing out of my mind. If the room wasnít borderline 9-rounds, Iíd be in top 8. But itís not a sour grapes situationÖperhaps the matchloss paved the way for a playable bracket. If I won round 1 perhaps Iíd get slaughtered later on. Itís never a good thing to play the hypothetical game. Make lemonade when youíre dealt lemons.

Sideboard was EXCELLENT. I came expecting to beat Miracles and Delver and did just that. I was certainly conceding the Sneak/Show match but looked to trump BUG with Wilt-Leaf. It all paid off. WIlt-Leaf is a response to BUG, -1/-1 sweepers, and Miracles (4 mana is awkward for them + the anthem effect means you avoid over-extending).

2x Sylvan Library is legit. There were many times I took 4 to the dome to keep the pressure going (several of them = drawing a fetch + threat).

KotR > any fair creature. Anyone who bashes KotR (ďwehh wehh run goyfs insteadĒ) changed their tune while they watched me.

==
Changes
I want a second basic Plains. No idea where to make this cut lol. I donít want to drop to 2 bayou 0 scrublands. The mana worked but there were times I wish I had 4 basics (the sweet spot). Everything else was great.

I want a 3rd QPM somewhere. Herzog running 4x is overkill but 3x is important

QPM #3 could be ZP #3 in the sideboard. However, this is going to fight PTE/Decay/Sword of X&Y #3 (continue reading below).

The weakest card all day was Sword of Light and Shadow. Seriously. On paper, it is fantastic. However, I used the other toys all day. The one time I may have equipped somebody to it, the game was already over. 3x equipment main is correct, but the 3rd one is now in contention.

Thinking out loud, Batterskull is a clunky win-more. I donít like it. I am considering the lesser-used Body/Mind or War/Peace mainly for their respective color-protections. Both have merits (U/G for aggressive pushes and W/R for needed anti-removal). Unfortunately, War/Peace has crappy triggers. Body/Mind is actually attractive all-around pick. Maybe Iím onto something. Not sure.

*I did fool around with the NO-Maverick idea prior to the event and itís too clunky for my tastes. 5x Sweepers > SB NO package. Thalia and Teeg > NO in the main.

I'm willing to field any additional questions. There are A LOT of quality players on these boards and I never felt I had the resume to post here. Hopefully we can get the ball rolling for Maverick players again!

Congrats on an excellent performance, Warden! I've always thought Knight of the Reliquary strategies were way too underrepresented.

I am really upset just reading about what happened to you in G1. Hope that guys gets bitten by karma soon.

tescrin
08-12-2014, 04:21 PM
I love to see a KotR list do well. I just think he's both the Bees and the Knees. It's very hard for me to stray from that nice G1 protection against random combo decks. Having the biggest playable fair beater is a big deal too. Laugh in the face of BSKs and Goyfs all day. Feels good. I'm surprised more people don't run Bojuka Bog; but whatever works for you. I love the miser bog and it's won me a fair share of G1s against a mix of dredge, reanimator, weird decks, or even just stopping Threshold/Snapcaster targets.

I admit, I'd be worried about leaving the safe confines of Decay; but overloading GSZ and finding QPM is probably good enough for miracles if they've already established.

I too am against the DD combo wholesale, but it's nice that it's working for you. I just always see it as "win more" since you've survived two untaps with KotR a lot of the time or your opponent couldn't waste/needle/revoker/anything the combo. If you can't win with a 7/7 beating in I feel like a 20/20 shouldn't be the difference. It's hard for me to imagine scenarios outside of "whoops I won" off of lucky top-decks where another bomby singleton (Thrun, Sigarda, Hero, Oblit, who knows?) wouldn't do something similar. You got some real balls running the combo without Loam too I feel.

Either way, well done! You've top 16'd so you must be doing something right ;)

olwe
08-12-2014, 04:52 PM
Warden congratulations on the tournament and thanks for the fantastic write-up! Question, do you feel Mirran Crusader has any place in the 75 currently?

Warden
08-12-2014, 07:12 PM
@sdematt: Interesting list. It lives and dies on SFM + friends on the table but you definitely bring out good ideas. Haven't thought about Tracker in a while. I like Edric but I'm not particularly sold on Rhonx.

I was actually thinking about a pure GW deck that would be the lovechild of Maverick and DnT (a real green and taxes) but never put it all together. While you have some nice inclusions, the real player I want to try is Serra Avenger. She's the best of all worlds and totally wrecks the delver matchup. Unfortunately, anything resembling a list becomes too white-centric and I don't want to resort to vial.

The DD/Stage combo was something I rarely searched for (wastelands are the priority if I am KotR digging. However, against stalled board states, it breaks parity for next to nothing. It's also like having extra cards in your hand once Knights are online because you essentially "play" said cards from the deck.

@lordofthepit: Thank you very much + I appreciate the kind words. I totally agree with the underrepresentation of Knights. She's such a threat...I don't know why so many people write her off.


@tescrin: Thanks man! Bog is always something to consider. I liked RIP as its effects just turn off graves entirely. Decks dependent upon DRS for mana and/or goyf for beats crumble if this thing hits. Took a page out of DnT for running it. As far as leaving decay, it's certainly a security blanket I enjoy. But Herzog's list got me to recognize decay isn't a staple card. You totally CAN run decay (some of my lists from earlier in the year ran confidants and decay), but idk...I really didn't need it. GSZ --> QPM takes care of a lot in the miracles matchup. Maybe a miser's Decay? Not sure. In regards to DD/Stage...again, it's something I don't actively pursue. Its inclusion is roughly equal to Cradle + fetch #8 except in the later game you have the ability to auto-win.

2 scenarios on Sunday where DD won the game:
Late in R1, G1: I got light beatdown plan then opponent drops TNN. He could have raced me but I just whipped out the Stage via KotR tutoring (naturally had DD in play). He scoops. Sigarda may have raced here but I won in 1 turn vs introducing other threats.

R7, G1: I naturally had DD/Stage. Opponent was dropping Goyfs and Moms. I lay down a few dorks (including a mom to protect the token) and fly over everything to lethal him. I am not sure I'd win this stalemate with a Sigarda due to its mana requirement (Idr if I had 5 mana at this point).


...You got some real balls running the combo without Loam too I feel...
They barely fit in my jeans lol. But look at it this way: if my opponent opts to wasteland the DD/Stage, they're giving me actual lands I need. I'll definitely consider a loam in the 75 as protection but it's not too often that I'm gunning for the combo. Basically, the longer the game goes, the higher the odds of releasing the Kraken. The DD plan is entirely supplemental to Maverick's real game. Functionally, the lands play similar to the likes of Cradle and Maze of Ith, which contribute little on their own and "conditionally good/bad". Additionally, the DD combo under Thalia is brutal for an opponent to deal with. A board of Mom, Thalia, KotR has the ability to straight-up end the game. That's a fantastic "fallback plan". It also messes with opponents who don't see it coming.


Warden congratulations on the tournament and thanks for the fantastic write-up! Question, do you feel Mirran Crusader has any place in the 75 currently?

Any place? Yes. I nearly ran him but felt he was a poor choice for the expected meta.
You can debate what I'm about to say, but this is how I feel about Crusader.
-If you're expecting BUG, RUG, and Jund -- he's worth considering. Not auto-include, but worth thinking about and weighing as a solid option. These decks pack lots of green beaters. You need to defend against green.

-If you face more UR, UWR, Miracles (Sunday) or DnT -- he loses potential. Why? He's outclassed by insect-delver, STPs, and burn. Mirran is a goddamn tank on the ground. But Maverick already does well (generally speaking) defending against ground attackers. Goyf isn't scary when you have DRS, Scooze, Knight, and GSZ to find them all. Mongoose is annoying but is weak to the same things. SFM and Batterskull can be handled without Crusader (though he certainly helps here). Keeping Crusader on the table long enough to use him is the big issue. He dies to STP, Path, Burn. No bueno.

*The bigger question I ask everyone is how Serra Avenger fits into the deck. That's a card that races Delver decks, can block delver, carry equipments in any match, and actually race TNN. Given what I just faced, I'd pick Avenger as my "WWx" threat. She's definitely a WW answer for the UR, UWR, Miracles, and DnT meta. I'd prefer her to Crusader because she plugs up a hole in the gameplan. I'm not sure how to place her into the deck (what do I cut for her?).

For Sunday, I went with WLL instead because I felt that was a good enough hoser against discard (BUG, Liliana), it kept my team out of -1/-1 sweeper range (BG decks), and acted as a solid threat against Miracles by itself.

bakofried
08-13-2014, 02:43 AM
Tried your tweaks at the local, -1 SoLaS, -1 Bayou, -1 Zealous, +1 Lightning Greaves, +1 Plains,.+ 1 Qasali.

Lightning Greaves felt really good, especially with dark depths in there. Also learned I'm terrible at managing opposing KotR's. That's a lot of rust on those skills. :/

lordofthepit
08-13-2014, 03:20 AM
For those of you (looking at you, Warden) who run the Dark Depths package, would you want to keep a Scryb Ranger in your toolbox? Being able to use Knight to make a Marit Lage in a single turn seems terrific.

HoneyT
08-13-2014, 09:22 AM
For those of you (looking at you, Warden) who run the Dark Depths package, would you want to keep a Scryb Ranger in your toolbox? Being able to use Knight to make a Marit Lage in a single turn seems terrific.

I do. She carries equipment like a champ too.

Warden
08-13-2014, 09:37 AM
Tried your tweaks at the local, -1 SoLaS, -1 Bayou, -1 Zealous, +1 Lightning Greaves, +1 Plains,.+ 1 Qasali.

Lightning Greaves felt really good, especially with dark depths in there. Also learned I'm terrible at managing opposing KotR's. That's a lot of rust on those skills. :/

Hmm, haven't thought about lightning greaves but that can work as well lol. If you are going to shave off a dual, get rid of the scrub before the bayous. I'd rather have 2x Bayou than 1:1 of black duals (green is more important than white).


For those of you (looking at you, Warden) who run the Dark Depths package, would you want to keep a Scryb Ranger in your toolbox? Being able to use Knight to make a Marit Lage in a single turn seems terrific.


I do. She carries equipment like a champ too.

Scryb is in contention for card 61. It doesn't make the cut for 60 unless I can find something to drop (and I really like having 2x Scooze rather than 1 Scooze, 1 Scrub). HoneyT nails it about the equipment thing. Flying is really big for us.

tescrin
08-13-2014, 01:57 PM
I honestly always run 61. It lets me run the land count I want and give me a "free" threat. Instead of 22 vs. 21 lands, I can call it 21.5 lands. The percentile differences are so marginal and rare that the silver bullets are worth it. If it's a singleton and a card you never mind if you see; I say run it. If you do mind seeing it I'd second guess it (but I'd still find a 61st myself.)

Maze is that way for me. I keep it around for the sake of Marit Lage/Tombstalker/Reanimator/Dredge pretending to be reanimator or even S&T who didn't quite go off and needs another draw 7. Still, it costs me a game here and there because it forces a mulligan. Maze tends to win me more than it loses IME; and the main reason I can't leave it behind is a tutor target that says "you win" is really nice.

That tangent is just supposed to get you thinking about how Scrib will effect actual MUs. If you think the silver bullet against waste locks, the psuedo-ramp, the ability to double-tap KotR for StageDepths; etc.. will come up more than "Really.. a scrip ranger..?" I'd do it.


As an aside. I think Bog is rather mediocre as a SB card. What I meant is I always run 1 MD Bog in KotR (or Nic Fit) decks; and often in any other black splash. The single CipT land isn't so hard to deal with (like your Arbor) but it comes up surprisingly often. It also "counts as" 5 cards which is a big deal. It's very easy to find 1 in 5 compared to 1 in 1. I still run the same amount of grave hate (because the hate is often a mix of hate for other decks too, like Cage for Elves.) Again, hitting snap targets or turning off Geese is a thing.

haganbmj
08-13-2014, 03:09 PM
I honestly always run 61. It lets me run the land count I want and give me a "free" threat. Instead of 22 vs. 21 lands, I can call it 21.5 lands. The percentile differences are so marginal and rare that the silver bullets are worth it. If it's a singleton and a card you never mind if you see; I say run it. If you do mind seeing it I'd second guess it (but I'd still find a 61st myself.)

Maze is that way for me. I keep it around for the sake of Marit Lage/Tombstalker/Reanimator/Dredge pretending to be reanimator or even S&T who didn't quite go off and needs another draw 7. Still, it costs me a game here and there because it forces a mulligan. Maze tends to win me more than it loses IME; and the main reason I can't leave it behind is a tutor target that says "you win" is really nice.

That tangent is just supposed to get you thinking about how Scrib will effect actual MUs. If you think the silver bullet against waste locks, the psuedo-ramp, the ability to double-tap KotR for StageDepths; etc.. will come up more than "Really.. a scrip ranger..?" I'd do it.


As an aside. I think Bog is rather mediocre as a SB card. What I meant is I always run 1 MD Bog in KotR (or Nic Fit) decks; and often in any other black splash. The single CipT land isn't so hard to deal with (like your Arbor) but it comes up surprisingly often. It also "counts as" 5 cards which is a big deal. It's very easy to find 1 in 5 compared to 1 in 1. I still run the same amount of grave hate (because the hate is often a mix of hate for other decks too, like Cage for Elves.) Again, hitting snap targets or turning off Geese is a thing.

I like Bojuka Bog in the sideboard only if you have to worry about Dredge in your area. Otherwise I like Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, or something else if you're worried about Reanimator or Lands or something. I used to run a one of Crop Rotation in the sideboard though, which was fantastic as a card against Reanimator, Show and Tell, Dredge, Lands, etc. That's a perfectly reasonable option if you're so inclined.
I haven't found the space or need for Bog in the mainboard, but that might change someday.


I think I'll be playing some kind of Maverick variant tonight. I played Elves last Saturday, and some awkward 2 GSZ Deadguy build last week, but maybe it's time to try Mother of Runes again.

tescrin
08-13-2014, 04:50 PM
I can understand that; but I often fight a dredge player, a lands player, an aggro loam player, or a RUG/BUG Delver in a given Local; let alone an SCG. It keeps Tombstalker off the table for example and gets rid of PFires. It makes Goose a 1/1 Shroud. It resets KotRs, shrinks goyfs; limits DRS food (which can be good or bad) and beats random janky decks like Nic Fit (we have a few of those players here, including me sometimes) and Zombardment-like decks.

Tutorable disruption is a thing IMO, and the application of it never seems to disappoint on a given day; more often than not I'd wished I'd seen it when I didn't than vice-versa. Another point to make about it is that can't be ripped from your hand/deck very easily.

I will restate/point out that I'm in Junk however, which requires BB often and rarely requires W. Still, with a KotR I don't think I could pass the chance to Bog people MD.

bakofried
08-16-2014, 04:55 PM
Lightning Greaves opens hilarious lines of play. I will note that just running a third Qasali might be objectively better.

lavafrogg
08-17-2014, 06:17 AM
Wouldn't the best reason to play a Bant maverick list be to play multiple Vendillion Cliques?

I was looking at this recently

creatures(25)
3 stoneforge mystics
4 knight of the reliquary
3 vendillion clique
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 pridemage
4 noble heirarch
4 thalia guardian of thraben
4 mother of runes

spells(12)
1 jitte
1 fire and ice
1 feast and famine
1 sylvan library
4 green suns zenith
4 swords to plowshares

lands(23)
3 savannah
3 tropical island
4 windsept heath
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 island
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

sideboard(15)
4 meddling mage
3 enlightened tutor
1 ethersworn canonist
1 batterskull
1 tormod's crypt
3 oblivion ring
1 ghostly prison/propaganda
1 gaddock teeg

Meddling mage is must better blind games 2 and 3 especially when behind a mom and sworded up. Multiple cliques allow you to use them early to get info and attack for exalted damage through the air, karakas finishes up over the top for a clique lock in the mid to late game.

Barook
08-17-2014, 06:38 AM
Wouldn't the best reason to play a Bant maverick list be to play 4 Brainstorm?
FTFY

No, seriously, you have absolutely no reason to start Bant without Brainstorm. Playing Thalia isn't reason enough to not play Brainstorm, otherwise, you would have to cut StP by the logic, too.

And the benefits of a blue splash seem questionable.

lavafrogg
08-17-2014, 01:36 PM
FTFY

No, seriously, you have absolutely no reason to start Bant without Brainstorm. Playing Thalia isn't reason enough to not play Brainstorm, otherwise, you would have to cut StP by the logic, too.

And the benefits of a blue splash seem questionable.

FTFY????

I think I am showing a list with maverick splash blue not a list that was bant centric. My game plan is still maverick based with turn one mana acceleration being key, and GSZ being my card selection of choice.

Once you start adding brainstorms you would follow with ponders and then counter magic. At that point you are no longer playing maverick but a UGw control list.

Vendillion clique is an evasive beater that helps disrupt the opponent or filter our draws it also plays with, not against, Thalia.

Barook
08-17-2014, 01:50 PM
FTFY????

I think I am showing a list with maverick splash blue not a list that was bant centric. My game plan is still maverick based with turn one mana acceleration being key, and GSZ being my card selection of choice.

Once you start adding brainstorms you would follow with ponders and then counter magic. At that point you are no longer playing maverick but a UGw control list.

Vendillion clique is an evasive beater that helps disrupt the opponent or filter our draws it also plays with, not against, Thalia.
By adding Brainstorm, you're still playing Maverick, except you're way more consistent, especially with all those shuffle effects.

Nobody was talking about countermagic or additional cantrips.

And :u::u: for Clique alone is still a heavy color-investment.

lavafrogg
08-17-2014, 03:55 PM
By adding Brainstorm, you're still playing Maverick, except you're way more consistent, especially with all those shuffle effects.

Nobody was talking about countermagic or additional cantrips.

And :u::u: for Clique alone is still a heavy color-investment.

Nobody was talking about brainstorm either.

What would you cut for brainstorms?

What is your blue splash maverick?

uncletiggy
08-17-2014, 04:39 PM
Glad to see someone running with the lightning greaves+knight plan I put something in the latent cards with underused potential thread but havent got to test since my computer is down. Curious to hear how it goes.

tescrin
08-20-2014, 03:23 PM
I had mentioned on mtgSalvation (and my local) that I thought Greaves could be used pretty nicely to help with Miracles (because haste + shroud is a pain due to requiring terminus or having removal ready to protect jace) and just push some damage in general.

I had no positive feedback for it so I'm glad to see some people trying it out. Another I've been meaning to try is Sword of Vengeance; but the equip is mighty high and probably a bit difficult to accomplish.

trollking21
08-21-2014, 01:41 AM
I had mentioned on mtgSalvation (and my local) that I thought Greaves could be used pretty nicely to help with Miracles (because haste + shroud is a pain due to requiring terminus or having removal ready to protect jace) and just push some damage in general.

I had no positive feedback for it so I'm glad to see some people trying it out. Another I've been meaning to try is Sword of Vengeance; but the equip is mighty high and probably a bit difficult to accomplish.

Lightning greaves seems excellent against miracles, lightning greaves on gaddock teeg limits theirs ours to around 1 main deck council's judgement, and even after that they still have to find swords to plowshares.
Edit they don't have to find swords because I'm retarded and forgot that shroud does nothing against council's judgement
Sword of vengeance seems generally worse then playing a sword of x and y, the equip is one higher and the effect feels less powerful then a disentomb every turn, or shock + draw 1

dsck
08-21-2014, 11:17 AM
Lightning greaves seems excellent against miracles, lightning greaves on gaddock teeg limits theirs ours to around 1 main deck council's judgement, and even after that they still have to find swords to plowshares

You do realize that they will just name Teeg to Council's Judgment? The rest of the stuff can be terminus'd away at proper time without caring about Greaves.

tescrin
08-21-2014, 12:16 PM
@trollking
My thinking with Vengeance was between haste and trample (and pump) you get to punch through TNN and have effective dudes against Miracles (since they won't get the opportunity to dig for one before getting hit, similar to greaves.) Basically, it turns any 2/1 into a first-strike trample version of batterskull. It's sort of an in-between of the Sword of X&Y and BSK; which is probably why it's meh.

@dsck
Maybe? They also may realize you can find Teeg (3-5 ways of getting him) easier than you can find greaves. Unless they can spend mana on Judgement while having enough mana for Jace/Entreat then you have a reasonable chance of simply having another Teeg/GSZ in your hand or topdeck. The risk/reward of hitting Teeg directly and then losing because they found #2 and you have no more answers (or have to leave up W for Plow right after Judgement) may mean hitting greaves and Plowing him now that he can't be protected as easily.

Either way, the situation is obnoxious for miracles, which is all you're trying to do.

dsck
08-21-2014, 04:36 PM
Are people playing 2 Teegs maindeck nowadays?

lavafrogg
08-21-2014, 04:43 PM
I'm at 1 main 1 side currently, the second for the miracles matchup .

tescrin
08-21-2014, 04:49 PM
Not main; sdematt is starting a trend (with at least me and a couple others following) that in total, you may have 3. I like this number instead of my old 1 Teeg 2 Canonist side since the same combo decks are effected but it buffs Miracles.

So yeah; even if there's only a single Teeg in the main (GSZ), I'd probably hedge 1-2 in the side since GSZ only equals Teeg when he isn't exiled/dead (and against miracles, multiples make an annoying problem.)

In matt's case, it's 3 Teeg and a GSZ. In Mav's case I could see an X GSZ, 1 Teeg, 1 SB Teeg split for these reasons.
In my case, it's 3 in the side with no GSZ; but a SoLaS to give pro-white. I'd consider greaves to make Karakas dead, but I haven't decided. Wasteland helps enough there I'd assume.

EDIT: Ninja'd

dsck
08-21-2014, 04:58 PM
Yeah I was thinking g1 miracle player definitely would Council's Judgment Teeg instead of Greaves.

Warden
08-21-2014, 07:59 PM
Yeah I was thinking g1 miracle player definitely would Council's Judgment Teeg instead of Greaves.

I see the argument but idk....Teeg is a dud in other matchups. Having 2 main is a hefty gamble to take. Even against Miracles, STP or CJ naming "Teeg" opens up SDT -> draw effect - > Terminus through the upkeep, meaning extra Teegs. This is why Miracles is annoying. It doesn't help CJ > Shroud. It's a catch 22 for Maverick. We outselves can take out TNN but other decks like Miracles will use it against us. If I wanted to sure-up my Miracles matchup, I'd make sure I had QPM, Kgrips, and Armageddons than a 3rd Teeg and Greaves. Just my opinion though.

danpo
09-07-2014, 09:18 PM
Took the black-splash Maverick with Dark Depths to a weird $30/three-round tournament at Eudemonia in Berkeley today.

I beat Team America and Patriot in tight three-game matches against nice dudes, but punted hard my first game against Miracles. The second was lost when he randomly had his 1x Karakas to blank my Thalia and then I drew two more Thalias and only managed to top-deck a Wasteland after my opponent powered out four 4/4 angels. Sigh.

My sideboard lacked Pithing Needle and Choke, though even with them I guess it's an uphill fight. So I wound up with like $44 in store credit--not terrible. If nothing else, the deck remains a lot of fun to play.

lavafrogg
09-10-2014, 04:45 PM
Is the spike feeder combo just too expensive for legacy? Maverick would be the perfect home for it between the infinite life and the infinite 1/1 counters for any mana dorks you had on board already.

JanoschEausH
10-03-2014, 01:45 PM
Is the spike feeder combo just too expensive for legacy? Maverick would be the perfect home for it between the infinite life and the infinite 1/1 counters for any mana dorks you had on board already.

Yeah i would say it is too expensive for maverick. NicFit runs it, and is the only deck which can afford it, in my opinion. Between Explorer Ramp and Birthing Pod its easy to deploy the Combo. Maverick doesnt have those things and also runs the wasteland plan.

somethingdotdotdot
10-04-2014, 08:15 AM
I've been wanting to dip my toes into a more creature oriented deck lately so I threw together a quick maverick list to spin around with. After a couple hours of testing, I've come upon this list; my starting point was a far more traditional maverick list featuring the fast 4 gsz's along with the toolbox and super fast mana. However, when I was playing versus miracles, the deck just seemed to play more and more into their terminuses. Unless gsz is fetching a teeg, all of the mana dorks and fast gsz targets just get swept away. I also found counterbalance hard to deal with if I didnt have a gsz. The result is that I moved to a list that is more inspired by d&t that features vials. I kept the 3 drs's for additional early presence as well as extra mana to help play/equip sofai/jitte. Here's the list I'm testing after a few tweaks here and there:

25 Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
3x Knight of the Reliquary

13 Spells
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment

22 Lands
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas

The main slots I find that are weak are the 2 serra avengers and the singleton council's judgment. WW can be a challenge to reach without drs; and while the serras were initially added to combat delver decks (list was intially closer to dnt after I added vials), I feel that the abrupt decays allow me to hit delver consistently enough that they weren't absolutely necessary. I'm considering dropping them for something else, but not quite sure what would fit well in those two slots. I'm considering the 4th revoker/thalia and a singleton library to help filter. The judgment slot is a concession to tnn being present in the metagame, but it is very difficult to cast when thalia is on the field, perhaps it would be better off to switch back to the 4th swords, especially if i decide to slot in the 4th thalia.

Anyways, thats where I'm at. I know that this is a fairly different approach compared to the standard gsz lists and harks back a bit further to the first maverick lists, but I think that vial is a excellent tool to battle the miracles matchup which seems to be a primary reason this deck is no longer so ubiquitous.

kingtk3
10-04-2014, 10:41 AM
How about 2 Qasali Pridemage? They are a reasonable clock on they're own and add some disruption as well.

somethingdotdotdot
10-05-2014, 12:22 AM
I was playing around a bit more with the deck and what I think would be excellent in the avenger slot would be tidehollow sculler. With vial on 2, its a great way to counter any miracle shennanigans unless they also have a swords (and you dont have an active mom), essentially doing a very good impression of vendilion clique. Vs combo decks, its basically a thoughtseize on a 2/2 body. Vs blade decks, its a nice stall tactic to turn off w/e they fetch for as well as to overload their somewhat limited removal. I also switched the judgment back to swords as getting 4 mana with this deck was sometimes a huge pain in the ass.

I also played around a bit with pridemage. When its good its amazing, but it doesn't really provide any card advantage and is just a dead card in a lot of combo matchups.

Pans-Advocate
10-12-2014, 10:44 AM
With UR Delver with 0 Wastelands quickly becoming a major deck to beat in the format, does Punishing Maverick become more well-positioned? I like the idea of 7+ maindeck removal spells for Aberrations and Pyromancers in a Mother of Runes deck right now. It might just fundamentally be wrong to not be casting Treasure Cruise and/or Lightning Bolt in the current format, but having the PFire engine seems like a really good way to for a non-blue deck keep up with a Cruise aggro deck, and cards like Scavenging Ooze are pretty insane. Jund's discard plan looks a lot worse when they can Cruise their way out of it so I'm starting to think that Maverick is poised to put up results. This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone tried updating Punishing Mav for the post-Cruise format?

supremePINEAPPLE
10-12-2014, 12:39 PM
I've been thinking about punishing fire as well.

Here is my current build. I've seen a few punishing lists choose maindeck mindcensor over Thalia and I've actually really liked the change, people have just not been playing around mindcensor at all and you don't slow down your own punishing fires. I could easily see Thalia being the right choice in the cruise world though.

Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sword's to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke

The sideboard is definitely just a mess of on-color good stuff I like...

ironclad8690
10-12-2014, 06:39 PM
I've been thinking about punishing fire as well.

Here is my current build. I've seen a few punishing lists choose maindeck mindcensor over Thalia and I've actually really liked the change, people have just not been playing around mindcensor at all and you don't slow down your own punishing fires. I could easily see Thalia being the right choice in the cruise world though.

Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sword's to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke

The sideboard is definitely just a mess of on-color good stuff I like...

I ran a non black splash list like this a while ago, but I strongly recommend 2 wilt leaf lieges in the board. It makes hymns awkward, lili awkward, can preemptively stop golgari charm, night of souls betrayal, zealous persecution from the blade decks rock and black mirror, and turns thing like mindcensor into a more serious threat. In the black maverick lists you dont have to worry as much since you cut some hierarchs and add some deathrites, but in this list I think wilt leaf would be perfect. Not sure what to cut though, sideboard is mostly combo/control hate and wilt leaf is more on the midrange hate. 3 Teeg and a choke against miracles post board is disgusting.

supremePINEAPPLE
10-12-2014, 08:31 PM
I ran a non black splash list like this a while ago, but I strongly recommend 2 wilt leaf lieges in the board. It makes hymns awkward, lili awkward, can preemptively stop golgari charm, night of souls betrayal, zealous persecution from the blade decks rock and black mirror, and turns thing like mindcensor into a more serious threat. In the black maverick lists you dont have to worry as much since you cut some hierarchs and add some deathrites, but in this list I think wilt leaf would be perfect. Not sure what to cut though, sideboard is mostly combo/control hate and wilt leaf is more on the midrange hate. 3 Teeg and a choke against miracles post board is disgusting.I think you last sentence will apply to a lot of decks going forward. I'm predicting I'll want all the Teeg I can get.

I actually really like swapping out the spirits for wilt-leaf lieges since I was definitely overloaded on combo/blue answers in the board. Thanks for the suggestion.

ironclad8690
10-12-2014, 09:55 PM
I think you last sentence will apply to a lot of decks going forward. I'm predicting I'll want all the Teeg I can get.

I actually really like swapping out the spirits for wilt-leaf lieges since I was definitely overloaded on combo/blue answers in the board. Thanks for the suggestion.

You're welcome! After that you will be super well rounded, Spirits would be better against elves, but you already have mindcensor to attack them.

Warden
10-13-2014, 09:01 AM
I've been thinking about punishing fire as well.

Here is my current build. I've seen a few punishing lists choose maindeck mindcensor over Thalia and I've actually really liked the change, people have just not been playing around mindcensor at all and you don't slow down your own punishing fires. I could easily see Thalia being the right choice in the cruise world though.


Although I didn't do so hot at this weekend's small GPT, I reached the same conclusion about Mindcensor. I've hated on this card for so long, but literally every top deck gets in trouble when this guy flashes in (all blue decks, combo, elves, DnT with stoneforge). I beat reanimator wasteland-ing their opening dual, having them brick for a turn, then mincensor-ing in response to a fetch. It's backbreaking. I have to find a way to bring him into the MD.

I've also debated about Pfires. Despite it being well-positioned on paper, I'm not sure if it's worth switching over. I win so many games going Thalia + Wasteland. I acknowledge Pfires gives us infinite removal for x/1 and x/2 things but I need convincing over Pfires engine > Thalia. I'm not opposed to switching over from a black splash to red. The colors help with different metas. I just need to see what's better/stronger in the current UR/Elves/Miracle mix.

@Choke: I keep going back and forth over playing this or armageddon. Two weeks in a row I swap out a pair of armageddons for a broader SB card (this week was mindcensor). Both times I should have stayed with my gut. 'Geddon would have been just brutal.

*Something I did learn this weekend: I should play an oblivion ring or canonist for decks that cheat things out into play. I beat Hypergenesis by the skin of my teeth.

New SB is looking like...
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Teeg #2

2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
1 PTE

5 Flex (RIP, Liege, Armageddon, ZP #3, Planeswalkers, Oblivion Ring, NO package)

EpicLevelCommoner
10-16-2014, 06:59 PM
I'm debating on joining the Junk Maverick movement: on one hand, the appeal of Sylvan Safekeeper with Mother of Runes to say no to spot removal looks really damn good in the current meta. But on the other, old habits die hard, and I'm so used to Nic Fit that building with a low curve in mind is gonna be tricky.

So, enough of my useless rambling: any suggestions for the following list?

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Windswepth Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland

EDIT: Updated -3 Wasteland; +1Thalia (Despite all the vulnerable manabases at the moment, I feel that Maverick cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks)

EDIT: Updated: -1 Thalia; -1 Knight; +2 Linvala (A flying creature carrying a sword seems legit, and what better way to make use of one than to give it a relevant ability)
Updated: -1 Sc.Ooze; -1 Pridemage, -1 Depths, -1 Stage, +3 Wasteland, +1 Karakas (Although I see the value in Stage Depths being able to end games quickly, I have reservations about being able to survive that long against combo, which is when I would definitely want the game to end asap).

nevilshute
10-17-2014, 01:34 AM
I'm debating on joining the Junk Maverick movement: on one hand, the appeal of Sylvan Safekeeper with Mother of Runes to say no to spot removal looks really damn good in the current meta. But on the other, old habits die hard, and I'm so used to Nic Fit that building with a low curve in mind is gonna be tricky.

So, enough of my useless rambling: any suggestions for the following list?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Windswepth Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor


Hey there. Are you running 62 cards deliberately? :smile: I just took the "dark maverick" deck to my LGS and it felt really solid. It's quite similar to your list except I chose to eschew the stage/depths combo in favor of the 4th wasteland and a cavern. I would love to find room for bob but have not been able to.

EpicLevelCommoner
10-17-2014, 07:14 AM
Hey there. Are you running 62 cards deliberately? :smile: I just took the "dark maverick" deck to my LGS and it felt really solid. It's quite similar to your list except I chose to eschew the stage/depths combo in favor of the 4th wasteland and a cavern. I would love to find room for bob but have not been able to.

Hehehe yeah: apparantly I'm having trouble using Excel to double check myself :P. Anyhow, the way I see it, there are two reasons to play black: better noncreature (or to be more precise, more generic) removal/hand disruption, and Bob to help with Sylvan Library card advantage (mostly because A) Bob is a creature, so it doesn't get hit by Thalia and B) Although Sylvan Library can draw more cards in one turn, chances are you wont be paying as much life per card with Bob).

I'm iffy on recent changes to the list, mostly because while I'm skeptical about wasteland's applications as mana denial tool for Maverick (tbh, it seems like we're more of a creature-based control list as opposed to a straight up tempo list), I do recognize it's value as removal for utility lands (Dark Depths, Karakas, Gaea's Cradle/Serra's Sanctum, etc.). Also, I'd hate to run max Thalia since she is legendary.

I also kinda want to include a flier or creature with reach in here somewhere, most likely Linvala since it looks like Elves! is hell game 1 for me.

Warden
10-17-2014, 11:02 AM
I'm iffy on recent changes to the list, mostly because while I'm skeptical about wasteland's applications as mana denial tool for Maverick (tbh, it seems like we're more of a creature-based control list as opposed to a straight up tempo list), I do recognize it's value as removal for utility lands (Dark Depths, Karakas, Gaea's Cradle/Serra's Sanctum, etc.). Also, I'd hate to run max Thalia since she is legendary.

Do you even Maverick, bro?

On a serious note, Wasteland + Thalia honestly wins half my games. Linvala is okay only if you can live to see turn 3/4 where you can drop her. At that point, the opponent is capable of natural order-ing a wincon into play. With UR delver making huge strides where I play, Linvala would be a cute blocker but her real benefit doesn't stop triggered shenanigans like Swift, YP, and Delver itself.

Ecstatic_Conch
10-17-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm debating on joining the Junk Maverick movement: on one hand, the appeal of Sylvan Safekeeper with Mother of Runes to say no to spot removal looks really damn good in the current meta. But on the other, old habits die hard, and I'm so used to Nic Fit that building with a low curve in mind is gonna be tricky.

So, enough of my useless rambling: any suggestions for the following list?

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Windswepth Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland

EDIT: Updated -3 Wasteland; +1Thalia (Despite all the vulnerable manabases at the moment, I feel that Maverick cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks)

EDIT: Updated: -1 Thalia; -1 Knight; +2 Linvala (A flying creature carrying a sword seems legit, and what better way to make use of one than to give it a relevant ability)
Updated: -1 Sc.Ooze; -1 Pridemage, -1 Depths, -1 Stage, +3 Wasteland, +1 Karakas (Although I see the value in Stage Depths being able to end games quickly, I have reservations about being able to survive that long against combo, which is when I would definitely want the game to end asap).

I think there's room for improvement in this list. I don't think you need two karakas as Knight of the Reliquary can fetch your singleton. If they cast show and tell, you can put a Knight into play, untap and search for karakas with no problem. I would not play less than 4 Knights in Maverick. To me, Knight is the heart and soul of this deck and cutting even one is a mistake. The same goes for Thalia. She is one of your best cards in countless match-ups, you want 4. You said Maverick "cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks" but I strongly disagree with this statement. After playing Maverick for years, I've concluded that Maverick is one of the best "wasteland" decks. The reason for this is simple. Knight can fetch wasteland, and many games are won by this approach of just tutoring up a wasteland every turn until your opponent can no longer cast anything. On that subject, I would not go below 4. As someone else in the thread mentioned, Thalia + wasteland wins games.

With your list, I would make the following changes: cut the linvalas, and either the dark confidants or the stoneforge mystics depending on personal preference. Maverick is not that much of a "stoneforge" deck, and I only say that because we rarely play 4 and never play batterskull. Qasali pridemage is a 3 of in most lists to simply beat the stoneforge decks. It's a great tool. Linvala sounds like a slam dunk but really it's a trap. Her ability sounds great but she does almost nothing in a majority of match-ups. I've played one in the side and it was merely ok, not great.

With all that said, welcome to playing Maverick and I'm someone that also loves Nic fit so I feel like we could get along.

nevilshute
10-18-2014, 03:53 AM
Hey everyone. I'm a long time storm player. Occasional Thalia.deck player. About 1 1/2 years ago I got the cards for maverick together but only played it a few times before deciding to put all my focus on storm. In the mean time I have - from time to time - felt like playing a creature-centric deck but, perhaps buying into the talk of Maverick's demise, I chose Death and Taxes.

Now, for the past year or so, maverick has been more or less off the map where I play. There is one guy at my LGS that always plays it but he only shows up once every couple of moths. He's somewhat of a master with the deck, though, and nearly always does well. He has adopted the black splash btw.

Then there's Thomas Herzog who keeps propping up in the occasional scg-top 8 now and again. And I keep thinking... Is maverick perhaps one of the most underplayed decks around? In relation to its, erm, power level?

Bottom line is that for a good while I've felt like the deck was WAY under-hyped and the fact that so few people were playing it meant people had written it off. Not that it was actually a bad choice.

So I talked to a buddy if mine and came up with a list and I took it to a 25-person tournament for a 4-0-2 record (the 2nd draw being an ID). I faced:

Infect: 2-1
Painter: 2-1
12-post: 1-1
UR swiftcruise: 2-0
Merfolk: 2-1
Last round: ID

I loved playing the deck and I'm certain I didn't play it to near its full potential.

I'd love to get some feedback on the list. The cavern would have been a cradle but I didn't have one. The cavern actually ended up being very relevant against UR. The 2 teegs were a concession to a) the new delve cards, b) facing miracles and c) facing storm. There were both storm and miracles in the room but I faced neither. And I only faced one deck playing with delve cards. Subsequently teeg felt most insignificant and got sided out a lot. Still not ready to abandon my plan of running two though.

One final thing is, that I would love, love, LOVE to run bobs as it's one of my favorite cards, but I was simply unable to convince myself that it was proper to do so. He makes us more vulnerable to -1/-1 effects. We need him to survive two turns before he generates card advantage. Also, since I'm not running discard in the main I feel like there are less dead cards later in the game where we would need bob to draw us through them unlike Jund.

I might be wrong and would love to be convinced :smile:

My list for reference:

4x Thalia
4x mom
4x knight
4x deathrite
2x stoneforge
2x pridemage
2x gaddock teeg
1x ooze
1x noble hierarch
1x scryb ranger
1x aven mindcensor
1x jitte
1x sword of fire & ice
1x sylvan library
4x swords to plowshares
4x green sun

4x Heath
3x verdant
1x flats
2x savannah
1x bayou
1x scrubland
2x forest
1x plains
4x wasteland
1x karakas
1x cavern of souls
1x horizon canopy
1x dryad arbor

Sideboard:
3x thoughtseize
2x ethersworn canonist
1x surgical extraction
1x bojuga bog
2x abrupt decay
1x krosan grip
2x zealous persecution
1x garruk relentless
2x Pithing needle

thefreakaccident
10-18-2014, 06:30 PM
Has anyone tested a few preachers in the mainboard? Been testing them, and they've been pretty sexy. Teeg is also a miniumum of two in my mainboard because of treasure cruise.

blackdiamonds
10-24-2014, 09:50 PM
I have been brewing between Punishing and GW for a few weeks now and Thalia is just so strong but so is punishing fire and I want to play P fire and a strong two drop that is anti combo besides teeg and then i saw this list:
Maindeck (57)

Creature [21]
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
Artifact [2]
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Instant [8]
3 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

Sorcery [3]
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Land [23]
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard:13

1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sylvan Library
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Crop Rotation
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Slaughter Games

full list wasn't provided so I'd add an Ooze, pridemage and a mom, I'd also cut the 3 non-heath fetchs for 2 wastlands and a savanna,as far as the sideboard goes id cut the traps for canonists, i think trap is really weak because the decks you bring it in vs always play probe,not sure what the calls are with slaughter games and what its' good vs,with the two open spots I'd play 2 choke. thoughts?

Barook
10-27-2014, 03:12 AM
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacy-championship-top-8-decklists-2014-10-25

Any thoughts on the list that did Top 8 at Eternal Weekend?

Pans-Advocate
10-27-2014, 10:15 AM
It looked really weird to me at first (Domri and Voice were odd to see) but I kind of like it more and more as I think about it. I mean, I probably would cut the Domris if I took this list to a tournament, adding most likely the second Scooze and the Library that are in the sideboard right now, but I think the broad strokes of the deck are pretty ideal (Stoneforge for Batterskull as a main plan, lots of Knight fuel without too much utility land durdling, solid removal and GSZ packages).

I'm not crazy about the SB, I think it has a couple maindeck cards in it (second Scooze and Library) and I've never been impressed by Thrun. I think it's possible that a couple Electrickery are warranted, not just because Young Pyromancer is the best creature in the format right now, but also due to the splash damage against opposing Mom decks and Elves. Tabernacle feels a little too symmetrical for my tastes. And I've found that ever since Council's Judgment got printed, Armageddon is a better haymaker against Miracles than Elspeth (although Elpeth's value in the BUG matchup might still mean she keeps the slot). I'd probably build his board like this (after subbing the two maindeck cards in for the Domris):

2 Pyroblast
2 Electrickery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Energy Storm

I think if Energy Storm is the truth against Burn (and it looks like it, on paper) this board might want more than one. The two Krosan Grips look clunky and bland, but RIP hurts, and every deck that boards it in has multiple other relevant targets, so I wanted a lot of that effect. This board does very little to address the issue of combo, but with the meta the way it is right now, I feel ok giving up some ground on the Storm, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator matchups. (And more to the point, if I felt like I needed to prepare more for those decks, I would be playing a Thalia build or just straight D&T anyway, the decision to bring Punishing Mav in the first place really rests on the assumption that these decks are not as relevant as decks that play lots of dudes).

Since I'm playing D&T right now, I of course tend to think more deeply into that matchup than is maybe necessary. This board has 6-8 cards to bring in and the maindeck only really has 4-5 I'd want to take out. I'd need to test a lot of post board games to figure out how much the matchup changes in them.

ironclad8690
10-27-2014, 11:10 AM
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacy-championship-top-8-decklists-2014-10-25

Any thoughts on the list that did Top 8 at Eternal Weekend?

I thought the most interesting thing about that list was the fact that it has 0 deathrite shaman. The last time I saw someone do well with a list like that was Meru Bhanot playing straight GW in a starcity like 3 years ago.

iamajellydonut
10-27-2014, 11:16 AM
I thought the most interesting thing about that list was the fact that it has 0 deathrite shaman. The last time I saw someone do well with a list like that was Meru Bhanot playing straight GW in a starcity like 3 years ago.

It's not really that surprising. Surprising that he went GWr instead of GWB? Maybe. But once you accept that, it's a simple matter of there being no mana to support Deathrite Shaman's most important function.

ironclad8690
10-27-2014, 11:27 AM
It's not really that surprising. Surprising that he went GWr instead of GWB? Maybe. But once you accept that, it's a simple matter of there being no mana to support Deathrite Shaman's most important function.

Even the punishing fire lists have splashed for shaman since Fabian Goerzens list at gp strausburg. I am glad to see hierarch return, I always loved it as a card.

tescrin
10-27-2014, 11:55 AM
I think Voice will someday find a home; though I'd imagine in GWB for Souls. The reason I say this is because it's two sword-carriers in one. If you get more dudes, more power to ya. It also has minor application against Liliana's and the token can be larger on the attack than an opponent expects. (Kills Voice, you get a 1/1, you drop a DRS next turn and swing for 2 and they can't block or w/e.)

That said, it's a bear that only has an upside against non-Plow decks and the upside can be pretty minor. With all of the TA, Shardless, and RUG though; I could see him slowly make his way in. He can make counter-spells pretty one-sided in Bant colors (since if they counter back, you gain dudes.)


Young Pyromancer is the best creature in the format right now
ಠ_ಠ

Pans-Advocate
10-28-2014, 07:12 AM
I was being serious. I think Pyromancer is better than Deathrite, Stoneforge, True-Name, Delver, and Goyf. What else is even in the running? Watching the Eternal Weekend coverage made it clear to me that the card and board advantage that Pyromancer creates if you don't kill it immediately on sight is unparalleled and can win otherwise totally unwinnable games. Basically if you are not playing a way to sweep opposing X/1s in your 75, your deck is not equipped for the most powerful plan that the best deck in the format is using. Kevin Jones completely sold me on UR Delver being the best deck in the format, and Pyromancer being the reason why.

Junk needs Zealous Persecution. Punishing Mav needs Electrickery. Straight GW is probably not viable. If I really thought that straight GW was where I wanted to be, I would still splash Persecution out of the board with a Bayou and/or Scrub in the main. The win% gained against Elves and D&T (and, in the case of Zealous, TNN decks) is becoming icing on the cake ... The real targets are Elemental tokens.

Regarding the lack of Deathrite Shaman, I actually like that choice right now. With the increased value of RiP, Shaman's capacity as a mana dork suffers too much in post-board games, and this deck really, really needs the mana. Noble not tapping for red hurts, but at least it always makes mana. However, the other side of this is that refusing to splash makes the combo matchups harder because you can't Thoughtseize them. Fortunately, the tempo decks that we are targeting by playing Punishing Mav are also pushing combo out of the format somewhat.

maharis
10-28-2014, 08:40 AM
I was being serious. I think Pyromancer is better than Deathrite, Stoneforge, True-Name, Delver, and Goyf. What else is even in the running? Watching the Eternal Weekend coverage made it clear to me that the card and board advantage that Pyromancer creates if you don't kill it immediately on sight is unparalleled and can win otherwise totally unwinnable games. Basically if you are not playing a way to sweep opposing X/1s in your 75, your deck is not equipped for the most powerful plan that the best deck in the format is using.

I completely agree. I've always defined the best creatures as, "Can I allow them to untap with this?" Deathrite, Stoneforge, Mom, Bob, Metalworker if you want it...

Delver, TNN and Goyf, actually, I don't care about in the same way. They are efficient beaters that can get ahead and can kill you, but they don't really offer other advantage. I'll take hits off a delver for a few turns while I set up something to overwhelm it.

Young Pyromancer is even more dangerous because they don't even need to untap with it, thanks to free spells, or just casting it with mana in play. Plus it can flip the board on you (pyro, bolt your guy, counter your next guy). And if they get two down.... Watch out.

ironclad8690
10-28-2014, 11:07 AM
GW has Holy Light at least. Wouldnt be the best with Noble Hierarch, but I think it would be worth it in the matchups where you want it.

I am actually thinking it might be time to bring out the old 1-2 punch of Loyal Retainers/Elesh Norn. Norn is very castable with Cradle, and seems like it would just slaughter right now. Need to look at those old Adam Cai lists for inspiration.

tescrin
10-28-2014, 12:14 PM
I was being serious. I think Pyromancer is better than Deathrite, Stoneforge, True-Name, Delver, and Goyf. What else is even in the running? Watching the Eternal Weekend coverage made it clear to me that the card and board advantage that Pyromancer creates if you don't kill it immediately on sight is unparalleled and can win otherwise totally unwinnable games. Basically if you are not playing a way to sweep opposing X/1s in your 75, your deck is not equipped for the most powerful plan that the best deck in the format is using. Kevin Jones completely sold me on UR Delver being the best deck in the format, and Pyromancer being the reason why.

BSK just beats it. As does SoFaI on anything. Pyro is good, but he's susceptible to the removal the format already wanted us to run due to Elves and D&T, and isn't any more impressive against Miracles than Goyf. I felt the oddness against UR delver where I had to kill a Pyro and they had Daze + FoW in hand; but it'd be the same way if it was a Goyf. I've abused Pyro before in a weird brew and it was nice to swarm through TNNs and Goyfs while being able to stall, but at the same time I don't think he's long for the format; he'll go back to obscurity just like he did with Grixis Delver; he's too weak as a topdeck or against any deck with reasonable board presence.

Time will tell and we can agree to disagree for now, I just really think you're heavily exaggerating his power level. People should've been running sweepers anyway; UR delver just made it obvious enough that people might freakin' do it now.


I should point out that it hasn't had enough showings in the Top yet to become a DTB. It probably will, but I think the frenzy will die down shortly and he'll fall into the abyss with Swiftspear at his side.

Pans-Advocate
10-29-2014, 06:18 AM
I don't think Holy Light is playable, especially since straight GW's mana dorks all die to it (whereas a list relying on Deathrite could play it, but Persecution is just way, way better if you're already doing that). The upside to splashing is too high, especially when even the tempo decks are cutting Wasteland and you're less likely to get punished for greedier mana bases. I love the idea of putting Elesh Norn on the table but it feels too clunky and slow to successfully enable against any of the decks that you want it for except maybe the mirror (Elves is too fast, D&T has too much grave hate that they're already siding in, Pyromancer/Delver decks will never let your Fauna Shaman activate). I'm still keeping my eye on that strategy though, if the format starts evolving towards more midrange-y decks that can stymie tempo assaults it could be quite a trump. Remember when Maverick was siding Gideon Jura for the mirror? God, I wish that card was realistically castable right now ...

I don't see how it is remotely possible to claim that UR Delver isn't a deck to beat right now. It is far and away the most successful deck in the format at this moment.

Maybe we should just be siding Gut Shots.

Warden
10-29-2014, 08:41 AM
I don't think Holy Light is playable, especially since straight GW's mana dorks all die to it (whereas a list relying on Deathrite could play it, but Persecution is just way, way better if you're already doing that). The upside to splashing is too high, especially when even the tempo decks are cutting Wasteland and you're less likely to get punished for greedier mana bases. I love the idea of putting Elesh Norn on the table but it feels too clunky and slow to successfully enable against any of the decks that you want it for except maybe the mirror (Elves is too fast, D&T has too much grave hate that they're already siding in, Pyromancer/Delver decks will never let your Fauna Shaman activate). I'm still keeping my eye on that strategy though, if the format starts evolving towards more midrange-y decks that can stymie tempo assaults it could be quite a trump. Remember when Maverick was siding Gideon Jura for the mirror? God, I wish that card was realistically castable right now ...

I don't see how it is remotely possible to claim that UR Delver isn't a deck to beat right now. It is far and away the most successful deck in the format at this moment.

Maybe we should just be siding Gut Shots.

I mentioned Gut Shot a week or two ago in the DnT thread. I like the Elecktrickery talk if people go R for Punishing Fires.
As for the discussion at hand, I like the upside of Elesh Norn but can't justify it. The time it would take to string together that combo you're better off going DD/Stage for an auto-kill. You also have to fit very clunky cards together -- Fauna Shaman(s), Elesh, Loyal. What do you cut to make room for this? If you were hellbent on cramming such a package into the deck, I would assume you cut SFM + equipment not named Jitte to accommodate. Even then, you would have to convince me you're make the deck better. I'm not opposed to the idea of Elesh in Maverick (especially with the meta the way it is right now). However, I would need to see some results.

Pure GW Maverick is dead. You need a splash color to generate CA. We have an increasing need to sweep the table (UR, Elves, DnT/mirror). I'll stand by my 5x sweepers in the board until a better solution is found.

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 11:59 AM
Alright, alright, you guys have convinced me.

I have flip-flopped more than Mitt Romney on my deck choice for SCG Oakland, but I think I will play Dark Maverick, the deck I have most tournament experience with.

Last I played this deck was December last year at SCG Vegas. I went 4-5 beating grixis delver, high tide, UB Tezz, and esper stoneblade. I lost to Elves, rug delver, merfolk, jund, and bant.

I have played Jund for just under a year, but I really like where Maverick is at the moment.

What would you guys recommend as a gauntlet for testing right now?

tescrin
10-29-2014, 12:01 PM
I don't see how it is remotely possible to claim that UR Delver isn't a deck to beat right now. It is far and away the most successful deck in the format at this moment.

Because it's not. Look at top 8's. it's a deck that's doing well, but it's not "the most successful deck." It has awful miracles game, mediocre combo game, and mediocre midrange games. What it has was a strategy people weren't actively fighting and the speed of a burn deck and picks on D&T and other Delver decks.

This thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28738-Eternal-Weekend-Top-24)shows it has a lot of Top positions but it's in part because everyone and their mother is playing the deck. This thread (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/576277-october-19-2014-worcester-scg-legacy-open) shows a similar "several UR Delvers" (or they could be burn, hard to tell with how it was documented) but it didn't push out anything obvious aside from maybe RUG Delver.

In three months UR Delver will have turned into something better or gone away and TC madness will have died down.


I have flip-flopped more than Mitt Romney on my deck choice for SCG Oakland
I don't remember Mitt Romney talking about your deck choice for SCG Oakland.

T-101
10-29-2014, 12:27 PM
What would you guys recommend as a gauntlet for testing right now?

In my opinion the Big 3 right now are U/R Delver, Death and Taxes, and Miracles. "Deck to Beat" or not, you need to be prepared to see U/R a couple times in a big tournament like an SCG Open or GPNJ.

Beyond those three, Elves, Reanimator, and Esper/4 Color Blade would round out my gauntlet. I've not personally seen much Reanimator lately, but I've read and heard about it. Elesh Norn seems like quite the creature these days.

Nuke is Good
10-29-2014, 12:34 PM
In my opinion the Big 3 right now are U/R Delver, Death and Taxes, and Miracles. "Deck to Beat" or not, you need to be prepared to see U/R a couple times in a big tournament like an SCG Open or GPNJ.

Beyond those three, Elves, Reanimator, and Esper/4 Color Blade would round out my gauntlet. I've not personally seen much Reanimator lately, but I've read and heard about it. Elesh Norn seems like quite the creature these days.

The decks I'm expecting to see in GPNJ are:

U/G Infect
UR Delver
DnT
Elves
Esper
Reanimator
Burn

Elesh Norn gets a value as it hoses a lot of those decks, its an autoscoop for most of them. I've heard some people at the LGS they want to bring out Maverick again as the hatebear deck for the TC mania.

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 01:10 PM
I don't remember Mitt Romney talking about your deck choice for SCG Oakland.

It was hotly debated along with universal healthcare.

Here is my current list:

Creatures: 25
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells: 12
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (debating between this and Batterskull)
1 Sylvan Library

Lands: 23
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

I think 3 Zealous is a good number right now. Any thoughts or criticisms?

DudeItsCorey
10-29-2014, 01:17 PM
The decks I'm expecting to see in GPNJ are:

U/G Infect
UR Delver
DnT
Elves
Esper
Reanimator
Burn

Elesh Norn gets a value as it hoses a lot of those decks, its an autoscoop for most of them. I've heard some people at the LGS they want to bring out Maverick again as the hatebear deck for the TC mania.

This is what you are going to expect at GPNJ:
#1&2 - Burn and Manaless Dredge. This event is expected to have 6k+ people. Many will drop before Round 1 to get their brainstorm swag. However, many will want to play, because they already paid. Burn and Manaless Dredge are the two cheapest decks to build in legacy. So Sideboard accordingly (mostly for burn, dread is an easy win for us). Hopefully you wont see much after the first 2/3 rounds.
#3 - All Delver Variants. Delver is extremely popular in America. However, on the east coast I would say its Most Popular. With the addition of Treasure Cruise many are jamming in 4 of into all the Delver shells. I expect UR to be the most popular as it auto-plays itself and been putting up the best results. Followed by BUG, RUG, Patriot then 4c/Grixis. I hate to group four major decks in one category, but you kinda have too. All four together will make up the majority of the meta and should be number #1. But i expect many non-legacy players at this event and Burn and Manaless Dredge will probably be the easiest decks for them to get their hands on.
#4 - Elves. Arguably the best combo deck and definitely the most consistent. This deck has lasted the test of time and is in a great spot since Miracles isn't the #1 deck right now.
#5 - Infect. - People are going to want to ride on the coat tails of Tom Ross' success. 2 back to back invitational wins have guaranteed this is a top tier deck. People like playing winning decks. This is a Star City event after all and a lot of eyes of been on Tom Ross' articles of late on where this deck fits in a Treasure Cruise meta. I would even expect people trying to jam Dig Through Time.
#6 - Miracles - Still the most played deck in the last 6 months and very consistent and strong in the hands of the right pilot. Given that this is a GP I expect that the grind will turn people away from playing this deck. However, expect a lot of Europeans coming across the pond. They love this deck and are very good at playing it.
#7 - Reanimator - Extremely popular on the East Coast and usually puts up a top 8 results.
#8 The Other Top Tier Decks - D&T, Stoneblade and Sneak and Show - These are still top tier decks and will almost certainly be played in numbers.


So those are the decks that I would gear my sideboard towards. There of course are other decks like Storm, Jund, Merfolk, Dead Guy Ale, Shardless Bug, Junk Blade, Regular Dredge, Lands, MUD, Painter Stone, etc. that will be played too. However, the meta is extreme BLUE on the east coast and everyone is on the Treasure Cruse bandwagon so I wouldn't expect to play more than 1 round against these decks.

Then the fringe decks like Goblins (I'm sad it doesn't fit in a 2014 Legacy Meta), Affinity, Nic Fit, High Tide, Food Griffin, Belcher.

Also - Elesh Norn is too greedy without a way to cheat her in. if you want to play her, go for a reanimator style deck.

My guess is that Merfolk is probably a great deck to play due to the heavy Blue Meta. However, if you're like me and Maverick is "your deck". Get some byes to avoid Charbelcher and rely on Scavenging Ooze and Gaddock Teeg more so than Knight of the Reliquary.

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 02:35 PM
27 - 12 in cockatrice testing in the last day or so.

Wins:

Dark Depths: 2-1
MUD: 2-1
High Tide: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
Mono Blue Delver: 2-0
UR Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 2-0
BUG Delver: 1-0
Elves: 2-0
Miracles: 2-0
Junk: 2-1
Aluren: 2-0
UB Tezz: 2-0

Losses:

Esper Midrange: 1-2
UW Blade: 0-2
UB Tezz: 0-2
12 Post: 0-1

Draw:

BUG Delver: 1-1

It's too bad so many people quit after g1 on cockatrice :/

So far everything looks good, just losing to UW/x Blade more than I would like to. Maybe I can find room in my SB for some Armageddons or Oblivion Rings. Anyone have any thoughts?

DudeItsCorey
10-29-2014, 02:56 PM
27 - 12 in cockatrice testing in the last day or so.

So far everything looks good, just losing to UW/x Blade more than I would like to. Maybe I can find room in my SB for some Armageddons or Oblivion Rings. Anyone have any thoughts?

What specifically are you losing to in the blade matchup? I advocate for Abrupt Decays over Path to Exile because it can hit equipment, Liliana, Counterbalance, etc. You really are boarding PtE mostly for the Delver matchups anyways, this way you don't have to play around Daze and it can't be spell pierced, Forced, etc. Also, a 3rd Qasali Pridemage on your sideboard can work wonders.

I also like Toxic Deluge over Zealous Persecution (I personally go 2x Deluge 1x ZP). It has farther reach and you can board it in on this match-up as well. Plus, when they equip a batterskull to TNN, then you topdeck the zealous afterwards, it basically too little to late. I once was playing Elves and he natural ordered into a Progenitus. I was able to Toxic Deluge for -10 and comeback and win the game. Had it been Zealous Persecution I would have been dead.

Koby
10-29-2014, 04:01 PM
@ironclad
Try increasing the QPM count to 3 vs Stoneblades. It's an awesome clock that they have to answer prior to deploying equipment. Likewise it's equally good vs Tezz decks to eliminate Ensnaring Bridge. That frees up for KotR to stay alive and annihilate their mana base. UW stoneblade is likely the hardest, as they have a rock solid mana base and access to Wraths. Choke is a godsend for these type of decks.

SoLS should be a Batterskull to mitigate against Burn. I don't generally like running SFM/BS unless you run 3 SFM however.

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 05:18 PM
What specifically are you losing to in the blade matchup? I advocate for Abrupt Decays over Path to Exile because it can hit equipment, Liliana, Counterbalance, etc. You really are boarding PtE mostly for the Delver matchups anyways, this way you don't have to play around Daze and it can't be spell pierced, Forced, etc. Also, a 3rd Qasali Pridemage on your sideboard can work wonders.

I also like Toxic Deluge over Zealous Persecution (I personally go 2x Deluge 1x ZP). It has farther reach and you can board it in on this match-up as well. Plus, when they equip a batterskull to TNN, then you topdeck the zealous afterwards, it basically too little to late. I once was playing Elves and he natural ordered into a Progenitus. I was able to Toxic Deluge for -10 and comeback and win the game. Had it been Zealous Persecution I would have been dead.

Here are how these games have been going for me:

T1: Manadork or Mom -> they StP it
T2: Thalia -> Stoneforge Mystic
T3: I play a knight, pass attacking with Thalia, they vial in Batterskull
T4: Knight to disrupt their mana if they have a nonbasic or something -> they go snapcaster swords to plowshares on Thalia, attack with Skull.
T5: Jace, bounce knight, proceed to stomp me.

It is even worse when I am on the draw playing catchup. Having to tempo swords a SFM is never great considering you have to be adding to the board at this stage.

These issues are increased if they manage to Force one of my guys or thoughtseize it away in the early turns.

As far as Deluge, I have wanted to run it but Zealous being 1 mana cheaper certainly helps, and when a Thalia is in play it can make even zealous get a little awkward. I think I might go 2 Zealous 1 Deluge or maybe even Engineered Plague in that slot. Having a permanent effect on the field is amazing vs Pyromancer and helps more than Zealous or Toxic against our worst matchup: combo elves.


@ironclad
Try increasing the QPM count to 3 vs Stoneblades. It's an awesome clock that they have to answer prior to deploying equipment. Likewise it's equally good vs Tezz decks to eliminate Ensnaring Bridge. That frees up for KotR to stay alive and annihilate their mana base. UW stoneblade is likely the hardest, as they have a rock solid mana base and access to Wraths. Choke is a godsend for these type of decks.

SoLS should be a Batterskull to mitigate against Burn. I don't generally like running SFM/BS unless you run 3 SFM however.

I have tried this, but I can only think to cut an equip, library, wasteland #4, or a scavenging ooze to make the space. It is not really the equipment that I end up losing to in the long run, but rather Jace + Snapcasters. I am glad to see Deathblade because I would really rather deal with True-Name than Jace.

If I was to go the Batterskull route, I would probably want to run Cradle to power it out as well as a 3rd SFM. With 3 SFMs, maybe I would cut 1 Thalia or 1 Land, but I am hesitant to cut lands. I have been back and forth about the depths stage combo lately because batterskull seems to be a better plan right now. The format is definitely faster than it was a month ago.

I have always used Choke in my sideboard, and I think I might have to make a cut or two to accommodate it. My only win against Joe Lossett with this deck came as a result of Choke, and it has helped me clench victory against multiple Blade decks too.

Pans-Advocate
10-29-2014, 05:21 PM
I spent a large portion of today testing Punishing Maverick and tuning the list that Nate Sturm played at Legacy Champs to suit my own comfort zone. As I expected, the "weird cards" I saw (Domris and Voice) were totally unsatisfactory to me and got cut for the more stock choices of 2nd Scooze, 2nd QPM, and maindeck Sylvan Library. I also cut the 4th Savannah for a Plains because getting Wasted off white happened a couple times when it didn't feel like it needed to (this resulted on the pretty minimal change of -1 Foothills +1 Arid Mesa as well). Here's where I landed:

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Council's Judgment
4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

The sideboard is what I'm a little concerned about. Right now I feel wedded to the following slots:

2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast/REB
2 Electrickery
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke

With 5 slots left and basically no game yet in these 70 against combo aside from Teeg and Scooze (I really feel like 8 of these cards are necessary for the Miracles matchup and the Electrickery also feels essential with all the x/1s running around), I feel like I have 2 options: I can hope to dodge Dredge/Burn/OmniTell/Storm/Reanimator all weekend long at GP NJ and stack the board with fair-matchup cards (some combination of Path, Manriki, Elspeth, Loam, Geddon, Needle, Thrun, etc) or I can just jam in 2 E-Tutors and a COP Red, a Canonist, and a Tormod's Crypt, which gives me a little bit of game against just about all the unfair strategies (but, awkwardly, maybe not actually enough against any of them in particular).

Someone poke holes in my reasoning. Im starting to see a weakness in this list to regular old Sneak and Show, for example, and I don't really know what to do about it (the old school options of Oblivion Ring and Crop Rotation don't sound reliable enough). The thing is, the option of just totally ignoring the unfair matchups and gunning straight for Delver, Miracles, and D&T really, really hard actually sounds almost reasonable right now, because those three decks are doing a pretty solid job of pushing combo out of the format. Am I crazy for wanting to murder fair decks so hard that I essentially punt my matchup against the entire combo pillar of the format?

Koby
10-29-2014, 05:37 PM
If you want to beat more fair and less unfair, then going to 3 Thalia is reasonable enough. You could put the 4th in the Sideboard to accommodate more removal in the main. I think with 3 SFM in the maindeck, a Sword of Fire and Ice isn't out of the question. I certainly like it better than Council's Judgment, as both deal with a TNN to a degree. Gaddock Teeg equipped with SoFI is practically like telling UR Delver to play a game of Go Fish.

Pans-Advocate
10-29-2014, 06:02 PM
The issue is that I have no idea what I could cut from this list to find room for 3 Thalia. I think what it comes down to is that if I want to play Thalia I will just play D&T, it's a good deck, I have total access to it, and I know how to play it (in fact I was playing it with success through the whole summer). My reasoning for considering going the Punishing Mav route is that I gain win% against Delver and opposing D&T by dropping the Thalias for Punishing Fire, I salvage the tougher-without-Vials Miracles matchup with Chokes, REBs, and Teeg, and the decks I'm trying to beat are ideally keeping the decks that beat me off my back. I guess my question is less "what do you guys think I can do in this list to beat combo" and more "do you think it's a defensible choice to play Punishing Mav over D&T in the current meta, knowing how much it skews towards beating fair decks and losing to combo."

I will admit that Nate Sturm's performance at Legacy Champs is the only reason I'm considering this ... I'd rather play mirrors at GP NJ than face a bunch of Punishing Fires with D&T, so having him put the deck back on the map felt scary.

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 06:29 PM
The issue is that I have no idea what I could cut from this list to find room for 3 Thalia. I think what it comes down to is that if I want to play Thalia I will just play D&T, it's a good deck, I have total access to it, and I know how to play it (in fact I was playing it with success through the whole summer). My reasoning for considering going the Punishing Mav route is that I gain win% against Delver and opposing D&T by dropping the Thalias for Punishing Fire, I salvage the tougher-without-Vials Miracles matchup with Chokes, REBs, and Teeg, and the decks I'm trying to beat are ideally keeping the decks that beat me off my back. I guess my question is less "what do you guys think I can do in this list to beat combo" and more "do you think it's a defensible choice to play Punishing Mav over D&T in the current meta, knowing how much it skews towards beating fair decks and losing to combo."

I will admit that Nate Sturm's performance at Legacy Champs is the only reason I'm considering this ... I'd rather play mirrors at GP NJ than face a bunch of Punishing Fires with D&T, so having him put the deck back on the map felt scary.

I think punishing is worth it. I am really on the fence about this one too, since I love punishing fire so much.

Here is my punishing list that I have been testing alongside Dark Maverick:


22 Creatures

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

15 Spells

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant/Garruk Relentless

23 Lands

3 Savannah
2 Tagia
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard:

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Choke
2 Pyroblast
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I think if you play the punishing fire version, your sideboard has to be geared against combo for sure. You have two options:

1) Broadly powerful cards that perform work in a bunch of matchups at consistent numbers.

2) Enlightened Tutor board, which is better suited to punishing maverick as you are hedging towards the fair matchups with your maindeck.

The matchups that I am most concerned about with this version are Reanimator, Storm, Omnitell, and Burn to a lesser extent, hence MD skull. This is very similar to the version that I got 22nd with at SCG LA about 1 year ago. I was lucky to play RUG delver 4 times that tournament, with the others being 2 Affinity, 1 Storm, 1 Dredge, and 1 Shardless BUG I believe.

I have cut the Depths Stage combo due to the speed of the format (definitely want to be casting my power spells on curve, also precarious 4 color manabase), and maze of ith seems marginalized with the Equipment decks running TNN.

I favor Punishing Fire version because it is easy mode against all fair decks when you get the combo, and it is closer to Big Zoo which is my all-time favorite deck. There are combat decisions with the Thalia version that always seem to cost me a game or 2, and I prefer staying away from "thinking" in bigger tournaments.

That said, I am really on the fence right now.

Pans-Advocate
10-29-2014, 07:09 PM
Personally I am very wary of using Deathrite as a mana dork right now. RIP is already strong enough to bring in as a way to nerf Knight and to a lesser extent Scooze, and D&T needs it to break parity with the PFire engine, but it turns a corner from annoying to potentially backbreaking if it also hoses your mana dorks. Since the only other black mana symbols in your 75 are for Slaughter Games and E-Plague, I would consider switching out of the black splash as a way of guaranteeing that your dorks make mana. For that matter, you're also running considerably fewer ways to remove a RIP, which makes it that much scarier.

I also see a pretty glaring issue with your Burn matchup given that your only really good cards are artifacts and they'll be bringing in 2-3 Smash to Smithereens. Since you already play 2 Tutors, a single COP Red can swing that matchup enormously.

Those are the only issues I noticed with that list though. I like that your use of Pithing Needle, Revoker, and Spirit of the Labyrinth gives you board targets against miracles that also do work against Sneak and Show ... My Krosan Grips and Council's Judgment are unlikely to pull weight in that matchup, which is why I'm a lot more scared of it than your list probably needs to be (on that note, if there was one thing that convinced me to run black, it's this matchup ... Slaughter Games just seems impossible for them to beat).

ironclad8690
10-29-2014, 07:37 PM
Personally I am very wary of using Deathrite as a mana dork right now. RIP is already strong enough to bring in as a way to nerf Knight and to a lesser extent Scooze, and D&T needs it to break parity with the PFire engine, but it turns a corner from annoying to potentially backbreaking if it also hoses your mana dorks. Since the only other black mana symbols in your 75 are for Slaughter Games and E-Plague, I would consider switching out of the black splash as a way of guaranteeing that your dorks make mana. For that matter, you're also running considerably fewer ways to remove a RIP, which makes it that much scarier.

I also see a pretty glaring issue with your Burn matchup given that your only really good cards are artifacts and they'll be bringing in 2-3 Smash to Smithereens. Since you already play 2 Tutors, a single COP Red can swing that matchup enormously.

Those are the only issues I noticed with that list though. I like that your use of Pithing Needle, Revoker, and Spirit of the Labyrinth gives you board targets against miracles that also do work against Sneak and Show ... My Krosan Grips and Council's Judgment are unlikely to pull weight in that matchup, which is why I'm a lot more scared of it than your list probably needs to be (on that note, if there was one thing that convinced me to run black, it's this matchup ... Slaughter Games just seems impossible for them to beat).

Nice, thanks for the advice. Maybe the Engineered Plague could become a Cursed Totem, Torpor Orb or Dueling Grounds (which actually seems pretty good right now, also hoses elves to an extent, great against Pyromancer, etc), the Deathrites turn into Nobles, Slaughter Games becomes Sigarda/Elspeth/Armageddon/Linvala/some other fat effect that is good against both Miracles and Sneak and Show. Sigarda stops annihilator and is also good vs Jund/BUG, Linvala has utility against Elves and Griselfather.

Updated list:

2x Arid Mesa
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plains
4x Savannah
2x Taiga
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Aven Mindcensor/Kavu Predator/Scryb Ranger
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Punishing Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Garruk Relentless

Sideboard:
1x Choke
1x Cursed Totem
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Pans-Advocate
10-29-2014, 09:55 PM
I do really like the idea of Dueling Grounds. It's good against Elves (assuming you can stop Progenitus with Council's Judgment), Pyromancer decks, and is actually pretty insane against Dredge as well in most situations. I'm going to find room for that, it seems like it'll pull its weight. I definitely like it more than Cursed Totem ... we don't need to hose Elves SO hard that we can barely play the game ourselves. I'm terrified of that card getting cast against me, honestly, I would never put it in my own board (same reason I'm not boarding Humility for Elves and Griselbrand decks).

Sigarda has done work for me in the past but I think the format is just a touch too fast for her right now. Pithing Needle is probably the card with the most direct crossover between the Miracles and Sneak/Show matchups.

Considering the following board:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
2 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Electrickery

This list still boards the same number of cards in most matchups as what I was doing before (9 for Miracles, 4 for Delver which change according to variant, 6 for Blade/TNN decks, 4 for Burn, 1 for Jund, 7-9 for Storm depending on whether they Empty, etc.). It sacrifices the 2nd Electrickery against D&T and Infect to get a couple more points against Dredge and tribal decks with Dueling Grounds, and loses the 2nd Krosan Grip against Omni-Tell to get the Pithing Needle against Sneak and Show, Elves, and Reanimator (which in the case of Sneak/Show is actually 3 cards added because the previous version of the board didn't have a tutor target for the matchup). I think these are both reasonable sacrifices when the other matchups that the 2nd Grip and Electrickery come in for are generally just as well served by Needle and Dueling Grounds respectively.

Dueling Grounds might be a bit expensive in practice, and the decks I'd bring it in against that Electrickery doesn't also beat are pretty rare sights in the legacy meta right now. But the more I think about Needle over a second Grip the happier I am with it.

Warden
10-29-2014, 11:03 PM
@ironclad8690: We have similar maindecks. Honestly, I have no idea what to do with the flex slots in the list right now. I go 22 lands + 1 dryad to your 23. I've been playing nearly the same thing since Syracuse. I tried 4 DRS last week and ran into situations where that worked (see: armageddon the board against miracles and burn them out for dmg + play stuff despite zero lands)...but also times where it didn't (DRS not making mana or shrinking my own KotR if I needed mana for a spell). I like the feel of 3:2 DRS to Nobles for arbitrary reasons. There are times the 2x exalted stack with QPM exalted -- turning a 2/2 into a 5/5 or more. Likewise, there are times I lay out a Noble turn 1 into removal only to play DRS (the people's champ) the following turn uninterrupted.

For a large event, I'm brainstorming a few things. Syracuse taught me a lot. The past weeks of up-and-down results also opened my eyes:
1. You want 4x Mom. She's ridiculous right now in every way. Saves lives + punches your team through their wall of TNN/Goyf/Pyromancer shitkickers
2. You want some amount of Sylvan Library
3. Thalia + Wasteland wins games, although I am not sure if the meta is shifting back to 3x as the best or not. Rooms where Thalia is good, you want 4. Rooms where she's hit-or-miss, you want 3. It will be a game time decision.
4. A large event like the GP will definitely have "budget" stuff running around that can randomly kill you. I'm more scared of burn than anything else. That deck can just turn 4 you out of nowhere. A well-placed PoP and/or fireblast reads GG. I am still brainstorming what hurts burn while also being applicable with other crap matchups. I've neglected Canonist for a while but feel she's too well-positioned right now (Storm, Burn, Elves, UR Delver to name a few).
5. Maverick needs anti-combo/spell cards in the SB. Teeg #2 in the board is automatic (miracles, storm). Toss in the aforementioned Canonist and I'm already about +3 cards deep against spell-heavy things. I am unsure if I want to supplement those 3 cards with Leyline (shines against Burn and Tendrils-kills), or Thoughtseize (Storm as a preventative measure, Sneak/Show, Reanimator). This is something I'd like feedback on.
6. Maverick needs 4x QPM effects in the 75. Herzog nails it with 3 QPM main + 1 in the SB. This is the main reflection about Syracuse. I needed a 3rd QPM several times (but still won). I don't know how 2 QPM + 2 decay/kgrip fare. Kgrip is murder but QPM adds damage + exalted.
7. ZP and Toxic D are the only thing giving us game against Elves and DnT. Run as many sweepers as you can afford. Toxic is better against elves. ZP is better against DnT (thalia and mana denial being a main issue)

Lessons Learned
*I have next to zero success with Bog + Crop Rotation as my GY package, so I don't even consider it. A miser Bog for the "KotR --> exile grave in response" trick is sooo incredibly situational. Against the likes of dredge and reanimator you need more consistency like Surgical/Tormod/Nihil/RIP.
*Choke sucks right now
*Maverick can win with 2x Equipment (Jitte + Fire/Ice). Many players are running a 3rd (Light/Shadow, Batterskull). I am debating if there's an even better option in this flex slot.

@Dueling Grounds: Elves will just get a Reclamation Sage and blow past you. I find it better to run removal/sweepers instead of something that funnels damage. Dredge may have problems but they also pack Flayer, who can shoot you in the face if you're stalling.

ironclad8690
10-30-2014, 11:19 AM
I'm guessing you board out some number of x/1s to accomodate Toxic Deluge? Deluge seems like it would go very nicely with batterskull. What else do you bring it in against besides Elves! and Death and Taxes?

Edit: trying Courser of Kruphix in the flex slot. When you get it and a knight out, it is pretty cool. You can also use shuffle effects to get dead cards off the top. Also, if we are going Deluge-heavy, courser's 4 toughness means it will likely stick around. It helps against burn by not dying to bolt, and each point of life matters so much in the burn matchups.

Also, I have really been liking 3 QPM.

DudeItsCorey
10-30-2014, 01:04 PM
I'm guessing you board out some number of x/1s to accomodate Toxic Deluge? Deluge seems like it would go very nicely with batterskull. What else do you bring it in against besides Elves! and Death and Taxes?

A lot of the Delver match-ups. It can help you stabilize your board. You don't even need to board out the x/1s. Just don't over commit your hand. Hold back a Mom, Thalia, etc for post deluge. Also, usually it doesn't kill your Scooze or Knight, so sometime it can clear out a board for you to get in there. I've actually boarded it against MUD too and it has been very helpful.

Koby
10-30-2014, 02:05 PM
6. Maverick needs 4x QPM effects in the 75. Herzog nails it with 3 QPM main + 1 in the SB. This is the main reflection about Syracuse. I needed a 3rd QPM several times (but still won). I don't know how 2 QPM + 2 decay/kgrip fare. Kgrip is murder but QPM adds damage + exalted.

Lessons Learned
*I have next to zero success with Bog + Crop Rotation as my GY package, so I don't even consider it. A miser Bog for the "KotR --> exile grave in response" trick is sooo incredibly situational. Against the likes of dredge and reanimator you need more consistency like Surgical/Tormod/Nihil/RIP.
*Choke sucks right now
*Maverick can win with 2x Equipment (Jitte + Fire/Ice). Many players are running a 3rd (Light/Shadow, Batterskull). I am debating if there's an even better option in this flex slot.

Agreed on the QPM, and based on Herzog's performance I also ran 3 back in SCG NJ in May. I think in the New England area, 3 minimum are 100% the right call. I'm less certain of that in other metagames. For GP NJ, 3 is most certainly the right call however.

On the topic of Crop Rot in the SB, I believe it makes more sense if the maindeck is already running Dark Depths / Stage combo. In that case, it helps to speed up quick kills against non-creature matchups like Storm or Sneak. Crop Rot thus becomes KotR #5 and that is a big help in those matchups. Bojuka Bog is fine on its own and I will continue to board it in against RUG Delver (extra mana + utility). Now with all the Delve decks, I still think it has value as a utility land, but less needed to combat Stifle/Wasteland, since they decline to run them.

Also agreed on 2 Equipment. If there's room in the SB, it's most likely going to be SoLS to bring in against other Mother of Rune decks (primarily D&T, rarely Maverick). I'm not so certain is 2 or 3 SFM is the right call, as I haven't extensively tested the Maverick vs UR Delver matchup to know which way it leans.

klaus
10-30-2014, 02:14 PM
@Warden:
disagree: Choke is at an all-time high atm!

Stuhl
10-31-2014, 10:25 AM
What do you guys think about the new cards of commander 14? Masterwork of Ingenuity seems pretty strong in certain situations. Maybe as a SB slot against blade decks to copy Batterskull/Jitte/Blades. Tutorable with SfM and then nearly always immediately slammable the same turn!
The planeswalkers all cost too much mana...

I'm trying to build a GWb list again. Is Mother really that strong currently? When I played half a year ago it seemed that Mother just suffers too much from TNN and all these board wipes... I built a NO Maverick list these days to get rid of x/1 creatures.
I like Golgari Charm, even as MB maybe as it is versatile and effectice against a lot of tactics. But then we would have to use Deathrites and probably no Moms and Thalias.
I have no legacy experience right now but it seems that things again changed. Actually I like going back to more traditional builds with Mom, Thalia, etc.

In general I don't like PF in addition with Thalia. I think it's a very expensive interaction for "just" 2 damage.

ironclad8690
10-31-2014, 12:40 PM
I like containment priest, but it is bad with both zenith and vial, without those it's not really Maverick anymore. I wonder if enough hatebears will exist in the format eventually to the point where we are consistent enough without zenith.

Pans-Advocate
10-31-2014, 01:11 PM
Yeah it's supremely awkward that a hate bear that Mother of Runes loves to protect invalidates the engines that fuel Mother of Runes decks in the first place. I actualy think the card is better in Miracles and Blade decks against us than it is in our deck, and that's not a comfortable thought.

Claymore
10-31-2014, 02:39 PM
What is it about the Miracles matchup that Maverick can't beat it?

I'm still evaluating decks for GP NJ and I'm down to Jund (currently sleeved, playing in GPT's, etc) or a Maverick variant. Maverick in general seems strong due to the proven hatebear strategy (Teeg, Thalia, Mom) and has Knight for anti-Show and Tell...plus being a massive beater.

Punishing Maverick looks interesting because, obviously, Punishing Fire. It's an easy swap from Jund and probably the biggest part of why Jund still has game against Delver, DnT, Elves, etc. On the surface it appears that it needs to put Thalia in the side, and overall would have a bad miracles/combo matchup.

Dark Maverick loses Punishing Fire and can likely run Thalia main, but gains Abrupt Decay, DRS, discard, and some saucy sideboard in Chains and Engineered Plague. I'm also looking at it for Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge, even though they are non-bo with a deck founded on x/1's.

I've found that Maverick's use of Thalia and SFM gives it a strong game against Delver and Burn, and Thalia plus Teeg can slow down Combo. I also believe that through the use of Caverns, the deck can additionally get game through Boseiju tech (via Knight/Crop rotation) to force Armageddon, Cataclysm, Comeuppance, or Toxic Deluge. I guess there's poor synergy between those and Teeg, but having several locks to put down is better than just one.

So this kinda rambled but is there an overall favor for one mav over the other right now?

Warden
10-31-2014, 03:05 PM
What is it about the Miracles matchup that Maverick can't beat it?


Because unlike "traditional" (ie; over the history of MTG) Wx control decks, Miracles has a 1-mana wrath of god-esq card that's active from turn 2 onward. In addition to this, they have 4-6 swords to plowshares + some amount of Verdicts and Jace. To compliment these things, there's a million filtering effects and counters. Where control decks also struggle, Miracles is well tuned: Entreat is just GG in most instances.

Teeg = turns off the business spells. But he's a legend and very vulnerable to STP/Karkas
Needle/QPM/Kgrip = Needed to stop Top and CB. If you don't land Needle early, it's a dead card
Armageddon = Taking out their mana more aggressively than Choke works well with DRS and KotR. Doesn't play nice with Teeg

@Choke: I don't like the card because Miracles can beat you off plains + SDT. UR Delver tends to run past Choke (assuming it slips in past Force/Daze/Pierce). klaus, I am interested in your experiences with Choke recently. Nearly every situation I've had in events wouldn't have improved due to Choke. Decks are too efficient to have a conditional 3 drop beat them. DRS also neuters the card a lot.

Claymore
10-31-2014, 03:10 PM
I've had similar experiences with Choke. I ran Raking Canopy in the past with Nic Fit with better results.

Cambriel
11-01-2014, 11:50 AM
Choke has a lot of variance. If you land it turn 2 off a mana dork they can play around it, and late game they likely have the resources to either counter it or just power through. Sucker punching your opponent when they're tapped out just doesn't happen very often. They're not going to put themselves in that position without FoW backup. Miracles doesn't actually play as much removal as it feels like. They're just able to see a million more cards than us, so finding the right answer becomes trivial. You can overload their removal just playing patiently. I kinda like the idea of Armageddon above. A hard reset feels like it should favor us, assuming you can land it.

I love this archetype, but I do worry about its long-term prospects given more recent cards. Much like RUG Delver after Khans, it feels like this is a deck that will have to radically evolve or simply die out. I hate to be all doom and gloom, and I think in certain metas Maverick is a very good choice, but there are systemic problems that remain to be solved. Treasure Cruise is just one example, and I would hate for Maverick to become a deck that NEEDS a $300 reserved list card (Chains) to compete.

ironclad8690
11-01-2014, 12:01 PM
Choke has a lot of variance. If you land it turn 2 off a mana dork they can play around it, and late game they likely have the resources to either counter it or just power through. Sucker punching your opponent when they're tapped out just doesn't happen very often. They're not going to put themselves in that position without FoW backup. Miracles doesn't actually play as much removal as it feels like. They're just able to see a million more cards than us, so finding the right answer becomes trivial. You can overload their removal just playing patiently. I kinda like the idea of Armageddon above. A hard reset feels like it should favor us, assuming you can land it.

I love this archetype, but I do worry about its long-term prospects given more recent cards. Much like RUG Delver after Khans, it feels like this is a deck that will have to radically evolve or simply die out. I hate to be all doom and gloom, and I think in certain metas Maverick is a very good choice, but there are systemic problems that remain to be solved. Treasure Cruise is just one example, and I would hate for Maverick to become a deck that NEEDS a $300 reserved list card (Chains) to compete.

It is interesting that you feel that way. I feel as though Maverick has actually gained strength in the metagame because of these new cards. Not that we play them, but the decks that do tend to fall prey to cards like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. I have been playing Hymn to Tourach for the last year, and I can honestly say right now I would rather be playing Gaddock Teeg + MoR.

Cambriel
11-01-2014, 12:15 PM
It is interesting that you feel that way. I feel as though Maverick has actually gained strength in the metagame because of these new cards. Not that we play them, but the decks that do tend to fall prey to cards like Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. I have been playing Hymn to Tourach for the last year, and I can honestly say right now I would rather be playing Gaddock Teeg + MoR.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think Maverick actually wins a bit from UR Delver pushing combo out of the meta like it has. The problem with the Teeg game plan is that they run a giant pile of burn, and cards like Forked Bolt are coming back into fashion to help combat Young Pyro. We're hurt badly by that, just like we were hurt by all the incidental TNN hate last year that hasn't gone away. It's a bad time to be relying on x/1s and x/2s to control the board.

It's not that we don't have the tools to succeed, I just feel like the relative power gain of those new cards makes individual matchups worse, even if it means the meta is more favorable to fair decks. I'm beginning to wonder if GSZ is too much of a sacred cow. In a world where Teeg is our strongest hatebear, and ALL of our other recent hate cards (Spirit of the Labyrinth, and now Containment Priest) also conflict with GSZ... are we reaching a point where we're better off just running more bears than we are 4 tutors? I don't feel qualified to answer that, but it's a relevant question.

Strassbaw
11-01-2014, 03:07 PM
Hello Maverick players,

I have been playing Punishing Dark Maverick ever since I seen this list for BOM 2013 http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12122&iddeck=88837

After a full year of playing with the deck, I have done well at many local events and before Khans of Tarkir meta game I found this deck to be very powerful and very well adaptable in this format with so many viable deck choices.

Here link with a list from September with my success: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14709&iddeck=108804

After months of tampering with my list here is what I would run at my very next event:

Creatures 21

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman (maybe 3)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch (maybe 2)
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor


Non-Creature Spells: 15

4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam


Lands: 24

1 Forest
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths

SideBoard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog


Currently delver decks are all over the format, and this is why I am opting for a 3rd scavenging ooze in my deck. I have considered Spirit of the Labyrinth main deck in the place of the 3rd Scavenging Ooze, however, Ooze seems more universally good and life gain in this format of rush down decks could come in handy.

I am also keeping 4 punishing fire main, and I would advise most people who play this build to do so. Punishing Fire is an amazing card in this deck, and Punishing Fire kills most creatures in this format. If you wish to play with life from the loam, (as most punishing maverick players have in the past) than 4 Punishing Fire will be especially useful. In some cases, the dredge effect on loam can mill (you'll see 3 cards on a dredge effect, and only 1 if you draw) Pfire or Grove of the Burnwillows and getting the combo online might be enough to win many games and in some cases, food for knight, DRS, and Ooze can be enough to keep you in the game.

Both Elspeth and Council's Judgement are removed from my deck because of the pace of the format, and because my mana base does not support white spells with 2W needed very well. These cards are very powerful, but they will not fit my 75 unless the format slows down again.

I added additional Pridemage cards, and I'm worried 3 in my 75 isn't enough. The Reclamation Sage is AWESOME in most cases and I would recommend using one in the sideboard over an additional QPM if the effects are needed. Sage can be useful when wanting to keep a body on the board and take an artifact or enchantment out with it. With Pridemage you can be more aggressive and use Pridemage to stop players from casting Bloodmoon, but if a Bloodmoon is out, and the 1 forest in the deck is in play, than Reclamation sage is the card you wanna see. It's all very dependent on the game state, but I like having the Sage in my deck, even when Omnitell isn't a deck I'm worried about.

The Dark Depth's combo is the what all Maverick players should be aspiring to do in my mind. KotR is better off sitting back and blocking or tapping its self than it is swinging for damage. With Miracle decks all around us, swinging during the combat step will usually result in a dead KotR. You will get some value at of a knight if you tap the KotR and get a cool land, because chances are that 1 KotR wont win the game on its on. Maze of Ith is cool, but I think the card is out classes by the Dark Depths combo, especially now that Truename Nemesis cannot be targeted by that land, and TNN is a big problem for Maverick.

Aven Mindcensor is a card that always seemed to find its way into most Maverick decks. Many articles I read discourage the use of the card in this deck, and I have chosen to take the advise. Elves is the only highly played deck that the card could shut down, and even a main deck Spirit of the Labyrinth seems to have a more practical use in stomping glimpse of nature while teeg stopped the Natural order. The 3rd Scavenging Ooze is where the Mindcensor would be.

Choke is a card that I have come to try again, and so far I don't love it. I cannot find room to add it in against certain blue decks, especially when I'm running 2 Pyroblast already. The UR delver match is one where I thought Choke would be an ace, however, I'm dead on the board before I can afford to cast a 3 mana card that doesn't kill an on board creature. Choke is good against the control builds of blue, but I wouldn't put in it against UR delver with the way my current 75 looks.

The E-tutor board has been wonderful for me in the past. I run 6 mana dorks and GSZ so I can most often play anything turn 2 to beat the combo decks. Getting choke was sweet with the Etutor against miracles, however that deck has answers to everything we can throw at them. I may opt out of using the E-tutor board if combo decks continue to take a back seat. 9 side board slots are taken up because of this card so if I'm not boarding them in often, I am not sideboarding right.

Good luck to anyone trying the deck. I hope this information is useful to someone. I'd be glad to offer more information if needed.

Ps. I played this same deck for about a year and it has been incredibly rewarding and fun. If you wanna try this list, be incredibly careful and aware of the lands. Fetching the wrong land (usually Bayou or Plateau) or not getting a basic forest against a Bloodmoon deck are my main reasons for losing matches.

blackdiamonds
11-02-2014, 01:06 AM
Could we all agree we need a new primer?

ironclad8690
11-02-2014, 02:09 AM
3-1'd the Legacy Trial for SCG Oakland. Beat UR Delver 2-0, lost to tin fins which boarded into doomsday 1-2, beat BUG Control Lands/Dark Depths 2-1, beat Aluren 2-1.

Got a polluted delta in one of my 6 khans packs *success kid*

I am playing a dark list with no SFM, Elsepth, 3 QPM, and an E Tutor board. Will let you guys know how I do tomorrow with a list and good full report.

Fatal
11-02-2014, 02:29 PM
Could we all agree we need a new primer?

No problem just write ;)

gj on your finish Iron

lavafrogg
11-02-2014, 09:38 PM
Went 3-1 today with punishing maverick, beat elves twice and UR Delver-Cruise; lost to UWR delver with 4 bolt/4 swords/batterskull.

Deck still has a ton of play to it, I feel like 4 punishing fire is a must

Claymore
11-02-2014, 10:26 PM
List per chance?

lavafrogg
11-02-2014, 10:59 PM
Creatures(21)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

Artifacts(3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Spells (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fires
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Land (24)
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard(15)
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Rest in Peace

Super standard list, trying to remove all of the fancy stuff. Rest in Peace is monster against anything that wants the think about the graveyard, knight of the reliquary is the only card that really cares about the year and he is still a 2/2 that fetches maze of iths and wastelands.

Anfylion
11-02-2014, 11:59 PM
I will be controversial, but I think this deck miss at least one copy of Tarmogoyf.

There are many tight games where I need a big monster of GSZ x=2 to stop the beatdown, and I only have utility creatures in that cost

Even KOTR sometimes it's not big enough in early states of the game

has anyone had the same feeling?

lavafrogg
11-03-2014, 05:04 AM
Goyf is fine if you want him as a one of, knight of the reliquary is just that much better in any situation you have a choice though.

Food for thought: cutting knight of the reliquary for mirran crusaders and being able to bring in rest in peace painlessly.

Rest in peace is good against most of the current format especially if treasure cruise stays unbanned.

Claymore
11-03-2014, 08:42 AM
It's kind of a split, on one hand we can use Goyf to stop the early ground rush, but then RIP graveyard combo (ANT, Reanimator) is going to make a comeback because they can handle the one or two counterspells that UR Delver will have.

Crusader is good, but he is easily killed by every burn spell in UR, and he can't profitably block swiftspear after just one spell.


Obviously sideboard and all...the deck needs a beater to hold the line against UR and close out the game quickly against combo before they can draw bounce, and RIP kills the best options.

Brimaz might be a good alternative, he is a nightmare for UR, can be played with RiP, can't be bolted, and can kill quickly enough. He's not green for GSZ, but green doesn't get efficient fatties anymore...

And yeah, I find Knight is too slow early early game to compete with Swiftspear pressure.

iamajellydonut
11-03-2014, 08:53 AM
Obviously sideboard and all...the deck needs a beater to hold the line against UR and close out the game quickly against combo before they can draw bounce, and RIP kills the best options.

Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are still your best, and only, options for presenting a clock. Unfortunately, the problem isn't strictly Rest in Peace. It just that presenting a clock in any fashion has gotten far more difficult. You can't just rip a Tarmogoyf and sail it to victory because the only kill spell is Swords to Plowshares. Creature removal has gotten better, and Tarmogoyf is still the same beater. So is Reliquary. Fact of the matter is that "clocks" are now however quickly you can lock them.

ironclad8690
11-03-2014, 05:12 PM
Hey guys, ended up going 4-4 in the main even of SCG Oakland.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28776-Dark-Mavericking-in-Oakland-74th&p=844849#post844849) is my report.

Lessons learned:

1) Listen to Warden. Play SFM + 2/3 Equips, and play Deluge in your sideboard if on Dark Maverick.
2) Punishing Maverick would have been a better choice at the end of the day I think. Be sure you can answer Delvers very quickly in this format.

EpicLevelCommoner
11-03-2014, 05:14 PM
Why not run mirrodin swords to help with the clock plan? A Goyf may just be a bigger bear, but a Goyf with a Sword of Light and Shadow turns off Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares while allowing him to swing through some of the creatures that would run those removal spell. Sword of Fire and Ice is similar, except has more utility for attacking and less so in anti removal.

Edit ... Sarnathed

Edit2 ... As far as early blockers go ... Id say its a toss up between Tarmogoyf and Scryb Ranger. Goyf has the benefit of being virtually immune to burn and being able to eat most other creatures, but is susceptible to grave hate. Scrub on the other hand can block Delver indefinitely while providing utility with Mom, but dies to pretty much everything without protection.

EpicLevelCommoner
11-03-2014, 07:38 PM
Updated my Dark Maverick list as well: now I'm on a "Save the Hatebear" plan A.

A few assumptions made here though for the sideboard (against a blind meta):

1. SFM decks are easily hated out via targeted discard after SFM hits the field but before they're able to activate. Also, outside of TNN or other evasive beat being equipped, a Batterskull equipped to most things, even a germ token, can get walled completely by an active Mom, and other equips can be destroyed via Abrupt Decay. However, currently the list's only true out to an active batterskull is to just outrace it, either by walling it while swinging through it via Mirrodin Swords or another Mom, or just punching the turbo button with Bob and Library and flooding the board with enough creatures for an alpha strike.

2. Outside of Storm variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other end of a Containment Priest, and outside of Show and Tell variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other side of a Gaddock Teeg. Thalia slows down both as well. Elves! however, requires additional hate in the form of removal, because Symbiote+Visionary and Glimpse of Nature can still get there.

3. Aegis of the Gods, when backed up by a protection piece, can easily shutdown targeted burn.

4. Dredge, although hit hard by either Teeg or Priest, still requires some early hate to prevent us from being overrun by Zombies and Ichorids, hence the Surgical Extractions. Explosives seems to take care of any token decks really well, while also having utility in other matchups while also playing nice with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

60 Main
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforege Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

15 Side
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aegis of the Gods
2 Containment Priest
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives


Any suggestions? Also, are my assumptions wrong, and if so, how wrong are they?

ironclad8690
11-03-2014, 09:34 PM
Updated my Dark Maverick list as well: now I'm on a "Save the Hatebear" plan A.

A few assumptions made here though for the sideboard (against a blind meta):

1. SFM decks are easily hated out via targeted discard after SFM hits the field but before they're able to activate. Also, outside of TNN or other evasive beat being equipped, a Batterskull equipped to most things, even a germ token, can get walled completely by an active Mom, and other equips can be destroyed via Abrupt Decay. However, currently the list's only true out to an active batterskull is to just outrace it, either by walling it while swinging through it via Mirrodin Swords or another Mom, or just punching the turbo button with Bob and Library and flooding the board with enough creatures for an alpha strike.

2. Outside of Storm variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other end of a Containment Priest, and outside of Show and Tell variants, most combo decks hate to be on the other side of a Gaddock Teeg. Thalia slows down both as well. Elves! however, requires additional hate in the form of removal, because Symbiote+Visionary and Glimpse of Nature can still get there.

3. Aegis of the Gods, when backed up by a protection piece, can easily shutdown targeted burn.

4. Dredge, although hit hard by either Teeg or Priest, still requires some early hate to prevent us from being overrun by Zombies and Ichorids, hence the Surgical Extractions. Explosives seems to take care of any token decks really well, while also having utility in other matchups while also playing nice with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

60 Main
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforege Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas

15 Side
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aegis of the Gods
2 Containment Priest
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Explosives


Any suggestions? Also, are my assumptions wrong, and if so, how wrong are they?

I really like it, very focused. Only thing I would say is you might want some sort of removal in your sideboard that hurts your opponent while buffing your own dudes, such as Zealous Persecution. Not only is it great against True-Name, it hoses Elves and the new Young Pyromancer decks.

That being said, it is a nitpick and otherwise the list looks fine.

blackdiamonds
11-03-2014, 11:00 PM
Kŗvu predator anyone? Wields swords well, gets really big great vs tokens n burn spells. Green sun able

ironclad8690
11-04-2014, 12:51 AM
Kŗvu predator anyone? Wields swords well, gets really big great vs tokens n burn spells. Green sun able

he's great in the punishing lists.

Warden
11-04-2014, 08:40 AM
Hey guys, ended up going 4-4 in the main even of SCG Oakland.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28776-Dark-Mavericking-in-Oakland-74th&p=844849#post844849) is my report.

Lessons learned:

1) Listen to Warden. Play SFM + 2/3 Equips, and play Deluge in your sideboard if on Dark Maverick.
2) Punishing Maverick would have been a better choice at the end of the day I think. Be sure you can answer Delvers very quickly in this format.

Appreciate the support. Yea, Deluge has been a staple since I bought them. On paper it looks wrong but my goodness you pull out of dire situations like DnT, Elves, Delver + tokens.

tescrin
11-04-2014, 11:20 AM
I agree, Deluge is gold. I side it in for virtually any MU outside of regular delver decks, S&T, or certain janky decks.

Warden
11-04-2014, 12:20 PM
@EpicLevelCommoner: I disagree with some key points you make (checking your recent post and list)

First, STP is a card that simply keeps you in the game. If you want Decay and STP I totally understand that. But I can't comprehend running AD in place of STP. The color commitments and difference in cmc are both very big deals.

Second, I think leaving home without 1 QPM and 1 Scooze in the 75 is blastphemy. Even successful lists that ran ADs in the main had 1-2 QPM. They are so under-appreciated! I don't see how 2x Gaddock + Safekeeper + Scryb serve as better options against the current meta.

Third, the SB has me scratching my head. I think the hatebear(s) of choice for Maverick are: Thalia + Ethersworn Canonist. Those cards hurt URx Delver big time. They also double-dip as burn or storm combo protection. I've thought about Aegis but can never justify him over Canonist (if anything, he'd be a gut call over Canonist #3 if I need said card). I have to test and see whether Containment Priest makes the 75. Part of me wants her as a 2x in the SB. I am not sure if she's "better" than Oblivion Ring, which is slower yet more applicable.

Because I'm a lousy player, I don't understand every nuance of the card. If Priest simultaneously comes into play with a fatty (Show, Exhume), does she nuke both cards? I'm assuming she stops Hypergenesis and Cascade-effects too. Is she only a preventative/pre-emptive strategy? Landing her T2 against "let's cheat crap into play" is a fantastic move. In this regard she's better than O-Ring.

Last, I am not sold on Maverick running Confidant right now. There's a decrease in wastelands and counterspells (yay!) but an increase in burn (not good because it aids them killing us + bob flips and/or forked bolt 2-for-1-ing bob and a friend). I need to hear an argument justifying the contrary. I can't see Bob being good when there's lot of burn.

@Punishing Maverick: I think you're too vulnerable to combo. Unless you plan to SB 10+ appropriate cards.

Barook
11-04-2014, 12:53 PM
Kavu Predator anyone? Wields swords well, gets really big great vs tokens n burn spells. Green sun able
He also synergizes pretty well with StP'ing your opponent's fatty.

While I think Punishing Maverick is better suited for the current, warped meta, I question how we can get a functional plan against combo going while not hampering our main strategy.

I'm also wondering about Dark Maverick list not running Bojuka Bog somewhere in their 75 as a tutor target. Seems decent in a meta full of Treasure Cruise.

@EpicLevelCommoner: Everything below 4 SFM seems wrong. Sure, it can be dealt with, but it's a threat they must answer, leaving more breathing room for other, important threats.

Bob doesn't seem that great in a meta full of burn.

Not running at least 1 Pridemage and Ooze main also seems wrong.

Claymore
11-04-2014, 02:16 PM
Against UR Delver with an active Knight, I'd rather Thespian EOT -> Depths, make Marit Lage than take a turn preemptively killing Treasure Cruise and removing my own blocker.

You have to be proactive with Bojuka and Cruise is live from about turn 3 on...meaning your Knight will land as a 3/3 or 4/4 on turn 3, then you must immediately use it on your turn 4. Just force the concession on turn 4 (Marit kill turn 5). Note that most UR Delver lists aren't running Submerge from what I've seen.

I am a little curious about Safekeeper as a one-of to supplement Mother, since you can GSZ him out. Would you run 3/1 or 4/1 and cut something like Scooze?

EpicLevelCommoner
11-04-2014, 02:47 PM
@EpicLevelCommoner: I disagree with some key points you make (checking your recent post and list)

First, STP is a card that simply keeps you in the game. If you want Decay and STP I totally understand that. But I can't comprehend running AD in place of STP. The color commitments and difference in cmc are both very big deals.

Second, I think leaving home without 1 QPM and 1 Scooze in the 75 is blastphemy. Even successful lists that ran ADs in the main had 1-2 QPM. They are so under-appreciated! I don't see how 2x Gaddock + Safekeeper + Scryb serve as better options against the current meta.

Third, the SB has me scratching my head. I think the hatebear(s) of choice for Maverick are: Thalia + Ethersworn Canonist. Those cards hurt URx Delver big time. They also double-dip as burn or storm combo protection. I've thought about Aegis but can never justify him over Canonist (if anything, he'd be a gut call over Canonist #3 if I need said card). I have to test and see whether Containment Priest makes the 75. Part of me wants her as a 2x in the SB. I am not sure if she's "better" than Oblivion Ring, which is slower yet more applicable.

Because I'm a lousy player, I don't understand every nuance of the card. If Priest simultaneously comes into play with a fatty (Show, Exhume), does she nuke both cards? I'm assuming she stops Hypergenesis and Cascade-effects too. Is she only a preventative/pre-emptive strategy? Landing her T2 against "let's cheat crap into play" is a fantastic move. In this regard she's better than O-Ring.

Last, I am not sold on Maverick running Confidant right now. There's a decrease in wastelands and counterspells (yay!) but an increase in burn (not good because it aids them killing us + bob flips and/or forked bolt 2-for-1-ing bob and a friend). I need to hear an argument justifying the contrary. I can't see Bob being good when there's lot of burn.


@ Swords vs. Decay: I know this will come back and bite me in the butt somehow, but I have no intention of using Swords to Plowshares yet. While Decay does cost a whopping 3 CMC with Thalia on the board, it also that crucial "can't be countered" attached to it, which seems like it'd be key against the Miracles and Delver matchups.

@ Scooze vs. Pridemage: Pridemage could reasonably be fit in here somewhere somehow, but Scooze doesn't seem as good as it has been, especially with a lack of creature-filled decks (i.e. Delver, Combo, Miracles).

@ Scrub: Like I said earlier, Scrub can block a Delver all day long while providing utility for the deck. Paired with an active Mom, the two can wall an opponent for a decent amount of time if played correctly. In fact, I'd say I'd go down to 1 Teeg and up to 2 Scrub since the meta is so Delver infested right now.

@ Containment Priest: Hypergenesis, yes, Cascade, no: biggest thing though is that you have to play him in response to Show and Tell, then show a noncreature to get the most value out of it. That flash is really useful, and even if they show a Sneak Attack, they can't get anything off of it. Only OmniTell completely bypasses it, and only if it shows Omniscience.

@ Bob: Not sure if this is the right call either in all honesty, but I can't think of a better time to use him than when everyone is on a CA arms race.



@EpicLevelCommoner: Everything below 4 SFM seems wrong. Sure, it can be dealt with, but it's a threat they must answer, leaving more breathing room for other, important threats.


SFM would be wrong at less than 4 if I were running Batterskull. Stoneforge by itself is just a tutor. A Stoneforge with a Batterskull is an engine that can swing.

DudeItsCorey
11-04-2014, 03:54 PM
Containment Priest is the nuts and will be played mostly in maverick, deadguy, rock sideboard lists. It hits everything you want to without Nomboing the deck. Except for Green Sun and fetching for dryad arbor, but teeg does that already and we have survived without green sunning when teeg is on board. She is going to amazing against dredge, renanimator (which arn't bad matchup typically), Sneak and Show, Elves (yeah!), Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, Nic Fit (with Birthing Pod strategies), etc. @Warden - remember she has flash.

Aegis of the Gods doesn't quite do enough. Ethersworn and Thalia are you cards to deal with burn. If you really worried about it COP:Red has done me wonders and even really helps against UR delver. For Storm, Gaddock Teeg is your answer.

Rest in Peace is super bad in this deck. It nonbo's the meat of what we are trying to accomplish. Graveyard based stratigies should be a non-issue with Deathrite and Scooze. Reanimator also has the problem of playing against a deck with Karakas in it. Dredge you have to know what to hit, Inchorid and Narcomeba are you go to hits with Deathrite (you can exile the Narcomeba while on the stack) because those are what enable their bridge and dread return, then go for Golgari Grave Troll and the other dredgers. For scooze, you can hit their bridges. Plus Thalia and Wasteland works so much wonders against dredge is prevents them from Careful Study and Faithless looting. There are the explosive turns ones that you just can't stop. But that's why they're a combo deck.

Also, it isn't correct to board in Rest in Peace for treasure cruise strategies. It doesn't stop them from burning you into the face. other cards like Chains of Mephistopheles are great because they also hit their ponders, brainstorms and probes. For UR Delver, you want a knight that can't be bolted and is too big for their swiftspear to crash through. Jitte/Zealous/Toxic Deluge for young pyromancer and removal for delver and early game dudes. Remember, play around daze. Other decks that are jamming in cruise aren't too threatening. Blade and Patriot you have Qasali for Equipment and generally you just have bigger guys. Plus Scavenging Ooze can hit anything in graveyards multiple times without tapping and is mandatory 2 of in any 75.

tescrin
11-04-2014, 06:18 PM
@EpicLevelCommoner: Everything below 4 SFM seems wrong. Sure, it can be dealt with, but it's a threat they must answer, leaving more breathing room for other, important threats.


This is short sighted. There have been lists with 2,3,and 4 SFM that have topped; they just each take different approaches. I did a mild analysis in the Junk thread. BSK is typically the reason to run 4; where as a 2x3 is more of a way to fetch an equip for the sake of fetching the *right* equip and easy CA.

EpicLevelCommoner
11-04-2014, 08:31 PM
Actually, before I get too entangled in this CA arms war, does Maverick even need to generate CA to keep up with the Treasure Cruise decks?

Koby
11-04-2014, 08:33 PM
This is short sighted. There have been lists with 2,3,and 4 SFM that have topped; they just each take different approaches. I did a mild analysis in the Junk thread. BSK is typically the reason to run 4; where as a 2x3 is more of a way to fetch an equip for the sake of fetching the *right* equip and easy CA.

4 SFM pushes the deck into G&T, which has it merits. I've seen a sweet Capt Sisay Maverick build that relies heavily on Legends. (P.S., Gaea's Cradle, Linvala, Brimaz, Teeg, Thalia, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Depths, Karakas, etc). I would also play Lightning Greaves in this list with 4 SFM.

Strassbaw
11-05-2014, 01:48 AM
Been considering running Circle of Protection: Red to deal with UR delver, Burn, and have a silly answer to Pro-Natural Order decks. I run an enlighten tutor board, but I am worried about adding the Enlighten Tutor to the deck game 2 and 3 against burn and UR delver. Any thoughts?

On the topic of UR delver, how has Engineered Plague been when coming out of the board. It seems good on the play when they are likely do take Daze out but worse on the draw. Calling Human could be GG, however, the risk of drawing it late or not having the black mana to cast it early enough are things to consider.

Warden
11-05-2014, 08:59 AM
Containment Priest is the nuts and will be played mostly in maverick, deadguy, rock sideboard lists. It hits everything you want to without Nomboing the deck. Except for Green Sun and fetching for dryad arbor, but teeg does that already and we have survived without green sunning when teeg is on board. She is going to amazing against dredge, renanimator (which arn't bad matchup typically), Sneak and Show, Elves (yeah!), Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Slivers, Goblins, Nic Fit (with Birthing Pod strategies), etc. @Warden - remember she has flash.


Never read she has flash. This makes the card considerably better. I still wish we had anecdotal evidence for how she plays in matches. I hope this isn't another Spirit of the Laybrith situation. Thanks for pointing out what she shuts down. Shit, I may be inclined to run some in the main.

@RIP:
I really disagree here. I think it's a stretch to say DRS and the commonly 1x Scooze are "enough" to cover GY hate. I may be in the minority on this one, but if you're in a room that uses the grave often (and I'm not talking treasure cruise...I'm looking at DRS, Goyf, Reanimator, Dredge, etc), RIP simply shuts them down. I punished BUG delver at Syracuse post sb because RIP hit the table. Double goyfs become cute 0/1's and the mana they depend on through DRS dries up. Sometimes there's stronger than anticipated application for decks like 4C DRS -- running drs/cruise/souls/snapcaster in some capacity. I acknowledge RIP may be a touch too slow against "fast GY" decks (especially if you're on the draw against reanimator). I wouldn't venture to say the card is "bad".

Last event I rocked Nihil Spellbomb and felt it was okay. I go back and forth between RIP/Surgical/Artifact-that-nuke-GY cards. RIP is the strongest IMHO. Again, I don't think it's a "bad call" if you still function as a deck but cripple your opponent. Part of me believes people forget KotR still kicks ass under RIP. It may not swing for 8+, but even as a 2/2, I'll gladly tutor for wastelands and/or attack with exalted triggers. Another related concept is how many of us run additional Teegs to fight Miracles. I wouldn't say Teeg shutting down my own GSZ (which I certainly keep in the deck G2/3) makes him "bad". If Teeg shuts down scary things from Miracles' end of the table, it's valuable despite the collateral damage. Back to RIP. If RIP throws a major wrench in your opponent's gameplan, do you feel it's worth the collateral? Assuming I can land RIP fast enough, I think it's worth SB inclusion.

*On another note, I agree RIP does next to nothing against cruise delver

Claymore
11-05-2014, 12:12 PM
RIP doesn't even really do that much against your own Knight. Assuming the opponent's deck is sufficiently crippled/slowed, a turn 2 RiP followed by turn 3 Knight wins the game on your turn 6 with a big fat Marit Lage.

DudeItsCorey
11-05-2014, 12:22 PM
I'm almost inclined to say run Grafdigger's cage to combat the graveyards decks if you feel deathrite/scooze isn't enough. It may shut off Green Sun Zenith, but going back to Gaddock Teeg doing the same. Remember, what makes us so great in the fair matchups is that our guys are generally way bigger than theirs and I feel RIP eliminates that advantage. Plus it can be a turn one play, which is what we want in those matchups anyways. Another reason for 2 of scooze is that he battles Goyf and Deathrite incredibly well (especially with a mother to protect against the spot removal). I guess this might all be a moot point as we are now going to play containment priest as our graveyard answer with additional reach (without effecting Scooze, Deathrite and Knight).

DudeItsCorey
11-05-2014, 12:24 PM
I also don't run the Dark Depths combo so my opinion is based around that bias.

Strassbaw
11-05-2014, 01:31 PM
I'll be streaming on twitch with Punishing Dark Maverick (a list similar to the ones I've been posting) against UR delver under the name phlogisten today from 2:30pm-5pm eastern standard time.

ThediscoPower
11-05-2014, 01:35 PM
I'll be streaming on twitch with Punishing Dark Maverick (a list similar to the ones I've been posting) against UR delver under the name phlogisten today from 2:30pm-5pm eastern standard time.

Will it be rewatchable later? Would love to watch but can't at work :(

Warden
11-05-2014, 01:45 PM
I'll be streaming on twitch with Punishing Dark Maverick (a list similar to the ones I've been posting) against UR delver under the name phlogisten today from 2:30pm-5pm eastern standard time.

I'm also at work...because bills are a thing.
If it's not too much to ask, can you go over your list when streaming + provide your decision making as you go? I've learned a ton getting the pilot's rationale (regardless if they are wrong or right). Helps me think about things moving forward.

HungryMan
11-08-2014, 06:33 AM
Hello, I'd like to share my list and ask your oppinion on what should be my 3rd equipment after the jitte and Sword of fire and ice.
Sword of war and peace, lightning greaves and Behemoth sledge are on the short-list. I don't like batterskull for being 5 cmc.

My local meta is a lot of burn and ur delver. Some dredge, lands, elves, storm, rock and homebrews. Haven't seen Miracles yet.

//Lands
1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 3rd equipment
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Creatures
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

EpicLevelCommoner
11-08-2014, 08:13 AM
Batterskull only costs 5 CMC when you dont have an active Stoneforge Mystic out :P given your list however, Id recommend Sword of Light and Shadow instead since you only run 3 SFMs. On the other hand ... you could add the 4th SFM and easily run Batterskull since youre also not running Dark Confidant (which makes that higj cmc hurt)

Bobmans
11-08-2014, 09:20 AM
I would always include Batterskull into any list running SFM. Mostly when it connects it takes over a game. I often had a win out of a game where i was danger close to losing. Especcially now with UR Delver being all over it is more important.

ironclad8690
11-08-2014, 10:55 AM
I would definitely run the skull in your meta. Sometimes they just have the smash to smithereenes, but most of the time if they cant kill SFM right away batterskull just takes over. Batterskull almost singlehandedly invalidated Zoo strategies back in the day, and UR is basically just a better veraion of Zoo. Also, the declining BG/x decks have fews ways to deal with the skull, and sometimes those matchups can be rough otherwise.

I'd say Batterskull was probably a large part of why Nate Sturm top 8'd eternal weekend as well. it was a great meta call and somewhat of an unconventional choice compared to previous punishing lists. You can rewatch the coverage to see how important Mom into SFM fetch batterskull was for him.

HungryMan
11-08-2014, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I'll try the batterskull the next time i play this deck.

ironclad8690
11-09-2014, 08:05 PM
Looks like Aether Vial Maverick finally got a top 16 in an American event (I always hoped this would be me, but what can you do):

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76026

List:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Koby
11-10-2014, 12:54 AM
Looks like Aether Vial Maverick finally got a top 16 in an American event (I always hoped this would be me, but what can you do):

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76026

List:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist

This honestly looks like a D&T variant more than Maverick. It's splashing for Teeg & 1 Pridemage, and SB Chokes. I don't think that's enough to be called Maverick.

I've been thinking about the metagame, and I think that we need to re-splash for Red and run 2-4 Lightning Bolts. Removal has always been a bit light in this deck, partly because we always outclassed most other threats from creature decks. Now with UR delver being the aggro deck, we need cheap (1 mana) removal for their Delvers, and plenty of it because they have Daze and Bolts. The alternative is perhaps playing Giant Spider so we can block their Delver and grind them out from the Swiftspears. Basically, start moving towards the Naya Zoo or Big Zoo roots again. The third alternative is to play the Punishing Fire builds, but those have always had spotty mana bases.

ThediscoPower
11-10-2014, 01:05 AM
I have a funny question for you today. I'm testing it right now online, but I wanted to ask this to the forum anyways. The question is, has anyone tried to play a 61 cards list with maverick in the past here? Here's the thing, usually, I would not ask this kind of question, as I go by the rule where 61 cards are ok when you have ways to tutor that card. Where it gets hairy, if you want, is when I look at my manabase, and I see that with so many colorless/non-mana producers, I feel like it becomes harder to defend adding a card and risking mulliganing more hands for lack of mana producers. All this because I want to go to 2 sylvan libraries main deck.

When i'm at it, here's my list. I have been playing online to pretty good success in 2 mans and dailies. Now to say it's ready for NJ, I have no idea. the list in itself it pretty stock.

List:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 voice of resurgence

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 batterskull

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Thespian's Stage
1 scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 cavern of souls
1 marsh flats
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 gaddock teeg
1 council's jugement
1 Crop Rotation
2 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
2 armageddon

Now, the difference is, I play voice of resurgence that I like a lot so far for it's work against delvers and the value in general against non-swords to plowshares deck, and the other difference, the cut of 1 sylvan library. Now, I used to play 2 at all times, but I feel like if I am to see a thousand delver decks, I prefer playing cards that impact the board instead of a card that will smooth my draw the next turn (especially that losing 4 lifes is usually a bad idea against them), and I expect to side them out a lot in that case. Now, what I am thinking about, is forcing the second library in as the card number 61, but I don't know how beneficial that really is. Other thought, I don't know how much cavern is needed. Could just become another dual. We'll see I guess.

Koby
11-10-2014, 01:13 AM
I have a funny question for you today. I'm testing it right now online, but I wanted to ask this to the forum anyways. The question is, has anyone tried to play a 61 cards list with maverick in the past here? Here's the thing, usually, I would not ask this kind of question, as I go by the rule where 61 cards are ok when you have ways to tutor that card. Where it gets hairy, if you want, is when I look at my manabase, and I see that with so many colorless/non-mana producers, I feel like it becomes harder to defend adding a card and risking mulliganing more hands for lack of mana producers. All this because I want to go to 2 sylvan libraries main deck.

[deck]

Now, the difference is, I play voice of resurgence that I like a lot so far for it's work against delvers and the value in general against non-swords to plowshares deck, and the other difference, the cut of 1 sylvan library. Now, I used to play 2 at all times, but I feel like if I am to see a thousand delver decks, I prefer playing cards that impact the board instead of a card that will smooth my draw the next turn (especially that losing 4 lifes is usually a bad idea against them), and I expect to side them out a lot in that case. Now, what I am thinking about, is forcing the second library in as the card number 61, but I don't know how beneficial that really is. Other thought, I don't know how much cavern is needed. Could just become another dual. We'll see I guess.

I've routinely played 61 cards in Legacy, and especially in Maverick. However, I only do so when I feel that the land base with 60 cards is a bit short. Thus, it's mostly just to give me a slightly better ratio on the lands, rather than needing to add in another non-land card.

Example:
Maze of Ith as the 61st card.
Gitaxian Probe as the 61st card (in combo).

ironclad8690
11-10-2014, 02:05 AM
@koby

Would you run Thalia alongside Lightning Bolt? Or rather be more like the punishing builds and cut Thalia to make your removal more efficient.

Pans-Advocate
11-10-2014, 04:18 AM
I'm inclined to think that a Punishing build is the single best reason to run red in the first place, but I can see the merit behind running Bolt so you can keep Thalia in the main. I think those are the only two real options though ... PFire and Thalia don't play well together, and splashing for Bolt and losing Thalia just feels like it would make your deck underpowered.

Warden
11-10-2014, 08:58 AM
@ThediscoPower: I ran 61 this past weekend. It has its merits. I find it useful when wanting "all the things". I tried a tweaked my list to run 4 equipment in a room full of miracles/control. Wanted to see how it would go. I went a horrible 1-4-0 but sometimes you need to crash and burn to tell your subconscious deckbuilding brain an idea sucks lol.

Honestly, I think 2x Sylvan Library is mandatory. Even against Delver, it's a must-counter card for them. Letting you manipulate draws to find removal and/or relevant things is a big deal. I tested a handful of game 1's and post-SB games against Delver and can't help but feel Sylvan made just as much of a difference as Thalia.

Equipment: For the GP, I have to decide on 1 Sword of Fire and Ice + 1 Umezawa's Jitte + [something]. Batterskull is the home-run play. It can win games. But it's also a very real liability if you can't churn it onto the field for 1W. Light and Shadow for its color protection and cost have me thinking that's the better call.

Against the field right now, I think Eternal Witness is a really important card nobody is running. I'm losing attrition wars left and right. If the game is remotely grindy, I feel I shoot my load just trying to keep pace...only to be top-decking while the opponent stabilizes better than me. I had this feeling against Jund Combo Loam (ew), Elves post-board wipe, and Miracles (obviously). Often, there's some game-winning card in the grave I need again.

ironclad8690
11-10-2014, 09:32 AM
I have been dabbling with Nic Fit lately and I have to admit buying back any card in your yard AND zenithable at that is really awesome. Also way less deathrite shaman in the format now, increasing the value of witness.

DudeItsCorey
11-10-2014, 11:41 AM
Played a 5 round event yesterday. Went 3-0-2 into top 8 and won the Quarter Finals before we split. I played with the following list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshare
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Wasteland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
2x Marsh Flats
2x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Scubland
1x Swamp

SIDEBOARD
3x Duress
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Armageddon
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

A couple of notes before my report - The 3 mainboard aburpt decays were clutch. In play testing and in the tournament, the meta is so fast that creature removal is so important. Also, being uncounterable makes it so much better. Maze of Ith has also been a key card in my land base. At times, not being able to draw removal can be a problem for flyers (aka flipped Delver) and being able to grab it with Knight of the Reliquary has saved me numerous games. It also has combat tricks that allow you to really put a beating on them. Losing life to thoughtseize is really bad right now. So I opted for Duress and it has been doing really well for me. I'm not too scared of discarding creatures now because of containment priest. I also want a discard to board into burn and duress seems better than Inquisition of Kozilek. I really want to find room for a 2nd Library in my sideboard for the grindy matchups. I'm considering taking out Enlightened Tutor for it. 2 Library in the main doesn't seem right to combat against the speed of the format so I want 1 main and 1 side. I took Bobs out because once again the format is too quick right now and losing life just isn't good. I haven't been able to use Armageddon yet against miracles and I eager to see how it interacts. I'm not going to take it out though because it destroys Lands and 12-Post also which are difficult decks to stay ahead of.

Round 1: 2-1 Miracles
Game 1 the 3 mainboard abrupt decays won me the match. I was able to destroy his top when he went to put top on top to counter a deathrite. I also was able to stay on top of his counterbalances. Game 2 he got too far head when he locked me out and stared fate sealing with Jace. He had about 4 more turns until he won, but I scooped because time is of the essence against that deck. Game 3 I hard locked him with choke and Thalia.

Round 2: 2-0 Storm
Played Randolph who recently topped 4 at SCG Oakland. Game 1 I got super lucky. Mulligan down to 6 on the draw. He turn 1 probes saw: Deathrite, Knight, Swords to plowshare and some lands and passes turn. I draw Sofi play deathrite and pass. He then probes me again and saw SOFI and cabal therapy out my knight. Then I drew gaddock teeg and he auto scooped. Had I not mulliganed down to 6 and had that hand He would have seen the teeg and cabal therapy it out instead. Super lucky. Game 2 I was able to turn 1 mom, turn 2 thalia, turn 3 gaddock teeg. He tried going off, but was short mana (due to thalia) after his tutor, he grabbed karakas and bounce gaddock teeg and passed turn. I waste landed him and played teeg and he scooped.

Round 3: Bug Delver 2-0
Once again, the mainboard abrupt decays won me games one. Just removed any threat he played with 2 decays and 2 swords. At one point he played a decent sized goyf, but I was able to drop a bigger knight and swing with it then Maze of Ith after combat damage to activate at his end step to increase Knight's size. Once I green sun for a 2nd Knight it was over. Game 2 Maze was really clutch. I didn't draw too much of my removal, but I drop a maze turn 2 to keep his flipped delver from getting in there and kept spot removing his deathrite. Which kept him down on mana. I then turn 3 played Library and from there was able to sculpt my hand to victory.

Round 4: Elves 0-0-3 (Intentional Draw)
Was super lucky to dodge and we both ID to assure top 8. I'm a little bummed because I wanted to test containment priest. But obviously I need to assure top 8.

Round 5: Death and Taxes (Intentional Draw)

Top 8 Quarter Finals: Punishing Jund 2-1
I'm 2nd overall seed and was on the play. Game one he was able to get ahead with Lily and Bobs. Game 2 I play mother of runes turn one which is killer for jund because they don't have a 1 drop kill spell (maybe after board, but very few) spot removed his deathrite kept wastelanding his grove of the burnwillows and ate his punishing fires out of his graveyard with my deathrite. After resolving a thalia and him being on 3 lands with no deathrite, he was unable to do much on his turns and I grinded out the victory. Game 3 was much more grindry. I was at a state where he had a 6/7 goyf and Liliana at 4. I had 4 card in my hands (Green Sun, Scooze, Karakas and Verdant Catacomb). I play the verdant and scooze to bait his Liliana sac. Which he did and from there I ate another lily in his graveyard and the engineered plague in his graveyard (both were discarded to Lily to grow goyf). That dropped his goyf to a 4/5 (instant, land, sorcery and creature). I then played karakas and green sun for a sigarada. From there he was at 20 health and I was at 9, but was able to kill him because he couldn't swing into sigarda because of goyf's size and hexproof. I could also ignore Lily because I was already in top deck mode and both her -2 and -6 don't do anything to me. So I would then swing with Sigarda, karakas her to my hand and recast her. After two turns of doing that he finally drew the wasteland he needed to kill Karakas. However, he stop upticking Lily and I had a Sofi in my hand that I was able to cast and equip which did a total of 10 damage. Thus winning the race.

Remaining Top 8: We split at top 4 because most of us had work in the morning. The rest allowed me to be the victor because I am literally 16 planeswalker points from getting a bye for Jersey.

I'm pretty set on this list for Jersey. Like i said I may cut Enlightened tutor for a second Library. But I really like essentially having "2" of all my enchantments for their relevant matches. I also have learned in my testing that Gaddock Teeg, although good against treasure cruise, is much like RIP were it isn't right to have them in against the treasure cruise decks. I find that have 7 mainboard removal (with 2 deluge on the side) is enough to keep their threats off the table and just having larger creatures is just too much for them. They don't have enough burn to kill us with that alone. Jitte is an allstar and having 1 of each basic is important for postboard games because they board in blood moon.

Good Luck to anyone playing in Jersey!

tescrin
11-10-2014, 11:51 AM
I've been quite curious to try AD next to QPM/GSZ. Glad to hear it's working for you. Maybe I'll try it from the Junk point of view soon.

EDIT: 61 cards is fine; don't give it a second thought.

@Warden
I've been loving SoLaS. Closing out games with White decks quickly is quite handy; the life gain can be nice for Burn. The raise dead trigger misses a lot in Legacy from Plow/DRS/Combo though.

Warden
11-10-2014, 11:56 AM
@DudeItsCorey: Congrats on doing well!
You don't find Sigarda sans Cradle to be problematic?

DudeItsCorey
11-10-2014, 12:03 PM
@DudeItsCorey: Congrats on doing well!
You don't find Sigarda sans Cradle to be problematic?

Well I'm only boarding her in against the super grindy matchups, where the games last long enough that mana isn't an issue. If I had her mainboard then yes I would need Cradle to battle against the delver matchups.

ironclad8690
11-10-2014, 01:08 PM
Nice work Corey! If I could turn back time to before SCG Oakland I would and put either Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire in my list. I am still really wanting to play 4 color for both DRS and P Fire, but I will have to test some more to see if it is worth going full-greed.

THerzog41
11-11-2014, 12:10 AM
Hey guys, I know a lot of you are getting ready for New Jersey. I love seeing Maverick do well (even if it may mean more SB hate for it), so I figured I would drop in and share my two cents on the deck. To give myself a little bit of credibility, Iíve top 8íd three of the last four SCG legacy opens that Iíve played with Maverick. One of my friends let me borrow the deck a few years back (during Innistrad block when it was one of the big 3), and Iíve been rockin the deck ever since. I took a few months off of playing it after it had been proclaimed dead, but shortly afterwards I realized how ALIVE it was. I believe Maverick is still the best deck in the format and definitely the most underrated deck in the format. I am an above average player, but I attribute all of the success Iíve had in legacy to the deck: Maverick.
One of the biggest reasons that Iíve had success where others have not is my decklist (It also takes a little bit of play skill and a good amount of luck ). Unfortunately, many if our Maverick brethren have the wrong idea about how to build a deck. It makes me happy that in the last six months, I have seen a lot of the lists starting to look more like the one I play. Without further ado, I will post my current decklist and explain some of the cards.

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sunís Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawaís Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands:
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaeaís Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Containment Priest
1 Not Sure- Scavenging Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Voice of Resurgence, Maze of Ith, Engineered Plague, Oblivion Ring, Wilt Leaf Liege

The main point that I want to stress about deckbuilding is consistency. Just because legacy is format where people do broken things, does not mean that you need to build your deck to be the most powerful. On the contrary, I love Maverick because it is a creature deck with a high level of consistency.

4 Deathrite, 1 Noble Hierarch
Deathrite being printed was a huge boon for the deck. He really is a bomb that wins fair matches, while fixing your mana and hating on the GY. Sometimes heís an unreliable mana producer, so thatís why we play a hierarch. The biggest upgrade of DS over NH is the second point of toughness. In this format especially, it sucks to have one toughness.

4 Thalia
I canít tell you whether my favorite creature in the deck is Thalia or Knight. What I can tell you is the 4 is the only number of Thaliaís I would ever consider playing. Any number less is just plain wrong. The format is built on brainstorm (and now to a lesser extent treasure cruise). Doing those things for one mana, really is not fair. Thalia makes them pay for all that cantripping, while crushing a lot of combo decks. Look at the winning delver decks. See how many cards they have that donít affect the board, then think how bad it would suck to have a hand full of that when your opponent has a Thalia. Seriously- I want every opening hand I draw to have her. After she gets countered of bolted, I want another.

2 Pridemage, 1 SB
Previously Iíve played 4 of this guy, and he really is that good. This is a card that people cut, but in reality he is a backbone of the deck. There are a lot of random legacy decks that needs artifacts and enchantments to function. Even when the targets arenít plentiful, you can normally snag something to mess up your opponent. Then there are those poor people who can only beat you with artifactsÖ In that case, you want as many as you can get.

1 Courser of Kruphix
My friend (Impulse on the source- who is the guy who taught me how to play Maverick) suggested this Courser to me. I liked it, but was a little skeptical at first. 3 mana is a lot, and I would have to cut a pridemageÖ After trying him, Iím hooked. It gains life, draws cards, and provides card selection. You feel like you are doing something illegal when you use him with library. With UR being big now, the lifegain and the ability to block a swiftspear comfortably are huge. Sometimes people like to bring in GY hate, and itís nice to have a guy that functions well through RIP.

2 Sylvan Library
Many people donít understand how good this card isÖ The library may not look sexy but, the ability to match blue decks in card selection and advantage is paramount. The second copy is basically a gimme, because itís not likely that you will draw it with the first in play. People hate on it for being slow. It actually gives you more chances to draw the cards that you need on time.

1 Sword of Light and Shadow, 0 Batterskull
Back in the day, I played a batterskullÖ I also played 4 SFM then. With only 2, batterskull is not really that good. It just so happens that SoLS is really good against a batterskull. They canít block your guy, or attack profitably (after a re-equip). I have thought about cutting the 3rd equipment and multiple in your opener makes for a clunky start, but the 3rd is really good against control decks- miracles and the like.

Manabase
Playing Maverick, you have your choice of utility lands. In the spots that are considered open, Iím maxing on wastelands, and playing a cradle and a canopy. Wasteland is one of the huge draws to playing the deck. I hate it when I see people cutting it. Cradle gives you the opportunity to power out equipment out of nowhere. I often get down to where cradle is my only land, yet I can still cast any GSZ or equipment drawn.
I donít like stage/depths. It may just be a preference, but the mana is less consistent. It is pretty damn powerful, but I would prefer to err on the side of consistency. When you have activated Knight twice, you are normally going to win anways.

SB Thoughts:
More removal is needed to kill delver. Choke is super powerful in the right situation, but I would never want more than one, because sometimes it doesnít do enough. Containment priest is the truth. I think ZP is good enough that if you want more of that effect, you donít need to sacrifice your board and your life.

Cards Iím not playing:
Scryb Ranger- This guy seems like he does cool things, but is actually trash. Just play something else that actually does something. Ostensibly, he blocks delver, but in reality he dies to a bolt. Especially with the x/1 hate now, donít play him.
Sylvan Safekeeper- Itís just not good. I donít get why people play him
Aven Mindcensor/any other 1 toughness hate bear- The mindcensor can be very powerful and win you games, but when it comes down to it, itís not consistent. Plus, with forked bolts and golgari charms here, I want to limit my x/1ís.
Dedicated GY hate- not necessary. You have GSZ and other good cards. Donít waste space on cards that donít do anything but hate the GY.

Random Thoughts
The biggest problem facing our deck in the current meta is the amount of hate for X/1s. Ever since TNN was printed, it has been coming. With UR delver being a DTB, more and more people are bringing forked bolts and SB hate. I really donít like the hateÖ Maybe thatís how our opponents feel as we drop hate-bear after hate-bear. Anyways, hate sucks, but itís out there for any good deck. Itís not unbeatable.

When you arenít playing the blue card selection spells for consistency, your answers have to double as threats. Thatís why I donít like too much removal main, and love pridemages, Oozes, and Teegs.

I donít love the punishing version due to its much worse mana and reliance on one toughness creatures for mana... And the fact that you are cutting Thalia to play the card. As I stated above, Thalia is awesome.

I may not be right on everything, but I know Iíve been winning a heck of a lot

ironclad8690
11-11-2014, 12:36 AM
@Herzog: It is awesome to see you on here. You are the authority on Maverick as far as I am concerned and your advice is greatly appreciated.

Played in my weekly local today with Dark Punishing Maverick expecting a meta of Tin Fins, Bant, and UR. Was met instead with Bant (2-0), UWr RiP Helm Miracles (0-2), and Death and Taxes (1-2).

Nothing notable in the Bant matches, just got there with amazing luck. UWr Miracles was a slaughter because I was not expecting the energy field combo and in each game my opponent got 2 RiPs (I was only playing 2 QPMs in the 75, something I regret). Didn't find them/they got countered when it mattered. Vs Death and Taxes I got there game 1, but games 2 and 3 I fell victim to my greedy manabase and RiP to keep me from punishing, as well as 2 Serra Avengers which I had no outs to after my Maze of Ith was Wastelanded.

nevilshute
11-11-2014, 03:49 AM
@THerzog41

I play a list very much inspired by yours. A question for you: how do you feel about replacing the Noble Hierarch with a Birds of Paradise? Is the exalted trigger really that big of a boost? The fact that BoP taps for black and can carry a sword in the air seems like more upside.

barcode
11-11-2014, 09:05 AM
@THerzog41 - Love your list! Courser makes a LOT of sense to me. Watching you play on the SCG circuit made me want to pick up Maverick again (I too thought it was dead when RTR came out!).

What are your thoughts on Abrupt Decay?

EpicLevelCommoner
11-11-2014, 10:06 AM
@THerzog41 Nice list: looks alot like the one Im working on now, so now i know im going im the right direction. However, I disagree in regards to Safekeeper and Scrub being outright bad.

Safekeeper works as a 1-of for the matchups where protecting your hatebears from removal is paramount. It also works against Karakas, Maze of Ith, and even Wasteland if its used against Dryad Arbor. the cost does suck ill give ya that.

Scrub on the other hand, is there for the same reason you run extra removal in the side. With only 4 stp in the main and only 2 libraries to find them, buying time against a flipped delver is crucial. Also, while iy does die to removal, it also plays nice with Mom to negate that drawback.

Might just be playstyle differences though (Ive been screwed ovr by consistency so i choose power)

THerzog41
11-11-2014, 01:11 PM
About BoP: I have zero cards in the maindeck that can't be cast with a Savannah. I like the benefit of keeping black more of a splash. It may hold a sword well, but exalted is really good, swords already provide evasion, and it doesn't hold a Jitte well at all.

Abrupt Decay: I like it, but one mana removal is just so much easier to cast. For MD removal, I don't want to resemble a Jund deck. If you want that much removal, play Jund.

magic.rar
11-12-2014, 12:16 AM
@THerzog41
I am a big fan of the list, and when choosing a deck for the GP, you are a large part of the reason I chose Maverick.

Right now, the only maindeck changes I have made are swapping out the SoLaS and Gaea's Cradle for the DD combo.
With 1 less equipment, Cradle's mana producing is slightly less relevant, and of course there are only so many land-toolbox slots,
especially ones with the awkward chance of not producing mana early (100% for DD, admittedly).

Dark Depths, while certainly lowering the decks consistency slightly, provides plans against Dredge, Burn, Storm, Elves, Bug, Jund,
and other decks that have none or few ways to deal with Marit Lage. In a few of these match ups, The difference between KotR
winning in 2-3 attacks and the token winning in 1 is large. UR Delver also has no way to answer it maindeck, and it's ability to instantly
end the game is powerful.
Against Delver where speed is key, and decks with sufficient answers for DD, it can be sided out to bring the land count back to 23, and
to potentially take advantage of opponents siding in ways to deal with it.

Without byes at the GP, and some of these decks being popular and cheap (Burn specifically), I am thinking to continue with this plan.
Do you think the logic is sound, or do you truly believe that playing the combo is wrong?

Thanks in advance.

Lord_Mcdonalds
11-12-2014, 01:06 AM
Maverick is a poor depths deck and trying to lean on it to win in certain mus is a poor plan IMO

Also 4 of those decks can simply ignore it and swing through it

ironclad8690
11-12-2014, 01:35 AM
I have been testing Containment Priest and loving it.

So far I have brought it in vs Dredge, Reanimator, Elves, Sneak Attack, and Death and Taxes. Did work each time.

Stuhl
11-12-2014, 02:54 AM
I played long time with the DD combo and a singleton Crop Rotation. Often it came unexpected. Also opponent Wastelands a land of mine and response Crop Rotation. Crop Rotation into Karakas against Show&Tell Reanimator. After SB into Bojuka Bog eventually. Crop rotation into a Wasteland is also great sometimes. I think Crop Rotation is a nice card. It slightly helps to improve the DD combo and even can get rid of one piece if the combo is already destroyed.
But I Don't know if the meta right now still allows it.

THerzog41
11-12-2014, 08:16 AM
Stage/Depths is undeniably the most powerful land combo you can put in Maverick. There have been times when I wanted to play it. That being said, I think it's a trap. You always remember the times when lage would win the game. You may not remember the times where it was a complete blank. Unless you have stage, depths is a complete blank. We have no brainstorm. I don't want to run a card that has the potential to do absolutely nothing. That's saying nothing about how poor stage is without depths. It's just not where I want to be on the power/consistency scale. There are decks that are built to do broken things. Maverick isn't one of them.

SoLS, while being the weakest equipment in the deck, does have major upside. In addition to its power against batterskull and it attrition matches, try watching death and taxes try to beat it... It's nearly impossible.

Cradle is right where I want to be on the power/consistency scale. It's ok Everytime I have a creature. It's great whenever you have two, and it's busted when you get 3+. Playing Maverick, that's not hard to do. I mentioned the equipment. You have several other things to do with your mana: big green Suns, creature activations, and most notably, eating their entire graveyard with ooze.

Warden
11-12-2014, 09:01 AM
@THerzog41: Thanks for all the input. It's great to see you posting here. I think you're the best pilot in the states with Maverick this year, given your big event success.

A few questions I need your insight on.
1. Your playstyle against Miracles? I've been in a rut against them and it's been literally auto-loss in competition since the summer
2. If you were expecting Miracles (like I am for the GP), what would you specifically pack in your SB to beat them?
3. Your impression of 3x Leyline of Sanctity for the upcoming GP. I expect budget-type burn in droves. Is this a poor inclusion over, say, 3x discard? There are serious pros and cons. I'm wondering your insight.

1mpulse
11-12-2014, 09:25 AM
@THerzog41: Thanks for all the input. It's great to see you posting here. I think you're the best pilot in the states with Maverick this year, given your big event success.

A few questions I need your insight on.
1. Your playstyle against Miracles? I've been in a rut against them and it's been literally auto-loss in competition since the summer
2. If you were expecting Miracles (like I am for the GP), what would you specifically pack in your SB to beat them?


2 Teegs in the board, which also hose Elves.

DudeItsCorey
11-12-2014, 10:29 AM
2 Teegs in the board, which also hose Elves.

It's not always that easy. On paper, Maverick seems like a great deck against Miracles. However, given how many answers they have and can dig for its very difficult to stay ahead. Karakas and Council's Judgement takes care of teeg, same with swords and venser should you not have a mother online. Hopefully people aren't going to follow Joe Losset's list and run 2 mainboard karakas. I like deluge for this matchup. Should you have an extra turn to not die to angels it can hit them. I also am playing with 3x Abrupt Decay in my 75 and it has help significantly. All in all its probably one of our most difficult matches of the top tier decks (along with elves). In the hands of the right pilot it can be very difficult to overcome. It comes down to not over committing into a terminus and getting blown out. There is some instances that you need to play around, like holding deathrite/mom when there is a hard lock of top + counterbalance. Play deathrite to bait them into throwing top on top of their deck and from there green sun for your Qasali. Also, destroying their top while they're fetching messes their gameplan. Armageddon is supposedly really good, although I have never seen my once post board so I can't attest to it. Sigarda has won me some games because it's hard for them to deal with after they have already cast a few terminus and don't have access to entreat. This is a deck that I would love having 2 Libraries against. Also, Chains of Mephistopheles is really amazing at stopping their card advantage and can sometimes prevent them from throwing a miracle card ontop of their deck with Jace and Brainstorm.

Either way, I don't imagine very many people want to grind with this deck for 16 rounds. Seem too taxing on the brain. However, many Europeans love this deck and there will be players like Reid Duke and Joe Losset that are going to run it. So it will be there, I just don't think it will be out in droves. It way too difficult of a deck to just pick up and play. Especially for a GP. I believe the biggest showing will be Burn, UR Delver and Patriot Delver/Midrange. However, I feel Miracles is really great against those 3 decks so I imagine that people maybe meta call it and play. So its better to be prepared.

EpicLevelCommoner
11-12-2014, 10:38 AM
What are Maverick matchups like currently in terms of DtB and popular decks?

DudeItsCorey
11-12-2014, 11:00 AM
What are Maverick matchups like currently in terms of DtB and popular decks?

Dodge Charbeltcher and Enchantress, against those decks you just cry. Miracles and Elves are probably our worst matchups. Amazing against Storm, Painter stone, Graveyard and creature matchups. Probably require more removal in the current meta for the fast delver decks. Have something in your sideboard to deal with Burn. Have something in your sideboard to deal with the various Combo decks that we are weak too. Have something in your sideboard to deal with 1 toughness creatures. I like Armageddon for Lands, Miracles and 12-Post which can be difficult decks to stay ahead of. Otherwise, it's not a blue deck which is why I don't believe it isn't as popular. Also, it can be more difficult to pilot because it's not blue. It's probably one of the most "fair decks" you are going to see. People call it a tier 1.5/2 deck, but I feel its because not a lot of people are playing it right now. It's a law of averages type situation.

Claymore
11-12-2014, 11:02 AM
I was largely all-in on the Dark Depths plan (and still am...maybe) but Gaea's Cradle does do nice things to speed up our game to catch up against UR Delver. My complaint against Scooze has been it requires a lot of green mana to put any dent in UR's yard to fight Cruise, and Gaea would certainly enable that for a one-time purge.

I haven't tested it, but it seems worth...marit.

However, Marit Lage can just win the game out of impossible situations or give you additional avenues to attack with - such as having Knights stonewalled by Pyro tokens while Delver swings over head for the win for a few turns, whereas you can use Knight defensively to power up the 20/20. Lage can also accelerate your win by putting the opponent on a 3 turn clock.

I've also been considering Cabal Pit to snipe Delvers and other x/2's, but I don't know if this deck can support the black mana.

tescrin
11-12-2014, 11:12 AM
My experience with Cabal Pit in Junk was that it was alright, but that I rarely fetched it. It's a nice out to a Mirran Crusader or a Mom, but it's a mix of "too slow" a lot of the time (filling your yard) and too unnecessary (if you're untapping with KotR you're often in an ok spot.)

Claymore
11-12-2014, 11:26 AM
In Junk I had great success with it in a SCG open, I used it to snipe SFMs all day long. I haven't used it recently though.

DudeItsCorey
11-12-2014, 11:26 AM
I'm currently running Maze of Ith as the flex land right now. I took Sigarda out of my main which now makes my curve end at 3. I don't believe cradle is necessary because I don't need a giant green sun zenith anymore (6 CMC for Sigarda). Maze can act as a "removal" land of sorts and work extremely well against fliers. Not to mention, the combat tricks. The only advantage of running Cradle is scooze in my opinion. However, there are enough green sources that scooze shouldn't be an issue to keep their graveyard down once you have stabilized the board. Against the super grindy matchups where they have ton of removal/board sweepers, cradle is the worst. I would rather have maze to hold back their goyf, batterskull, venser, flipped delver, etc. then run the risk of having a land that doesn't tap for mana.

I do agree, however, that Dark Depths combo is too greedy for our mana base. It can already be clunky as it is, and in certain matches it can be very unforgiving should you fetch for the wrong land. Now you're adding a colorless mana and a land that doesn't tap for anything (aside from when a blood moon or urborg is in play). Leave the dark depths combo for the lands decks I say.

Stuhl
11-12-2014, 11:26 AM
Against miracles: Never ever empty your hand! Play your creatures step by step and start beating with one creature at a time. They always have Terminus! Make them use their best card for only 1 creature. I don't know how often I forgot that and my board got terminused... that's a loss. 1 card each turn loses to blue decks.

I see the point of the DD combo.... sad, but indeed a liiitle bit more consistent then. But what about a singleton Cavern of Souls? Great card against miracles, too. To land a 4/4+ Knight safely is huuuge. Against a lot of blue decks. Also Mother and Thalia benefit.
I think it's playable as there are 11+ humans in the deck and with 5 dorks one colorless land more shouldn't hurt that much! Of course it's much better if we play Nobles instead of DR, but I see that these days that's a no-go at some point!
Also, playing no DD combo I would go to 2 Horizon Canopies main. It's so helpful in longer games.

Warden
11-12-2014, 01:05 PM
@DD/Stage:
My only reservation is that I'm averaging a free win each event I play in due to DD/Stage. I'm not sure Cradle + something > DD/Stage in the wins department. I totally agree about the mana consistency issues and the on paper arguments. The big upside for me would be running a 4th basic or 8th fetch -- things I really want in my manabase.

I still find DD = Cradle straight up. Cradle in the opener sucks and it's worthless when your board has nothing (ie; tapping Cradle produces no mana). The times my board is empty I tend to lose. Cradle's real upside is mitigating the "I can't play and equip in 1 turn to bury my opponent" situations I've seen myself fall into.

Strassbaw
11-12-2014, 01:27 PM
My greatest concern about not running Stage/DD or Maze of Ith is that it seems to change the value one can get out of KOTR. I understand dying before KOTR goes off is a big concern, however, when KOTR is out and Untapping, do those players still win the games that the DD/stage or Maze players win? I would argue that in many cases they wouldn't have the same chance. Is getting a fetch, wasteland, horizon canopy, Grove, bog really that big of an impact on the game, especially when we are losing in fair matches? I think further testing with the deck is the best proof one can give, but it sure seems scary to lower the power level of the Knight.

Been seeing lots of copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth in Junk and DnT. Has anyone done recent testing with the card in this deck against the Treasure Cruise meta? 1 toughness seems like a risk, but if he is unanswered it could make for a lot of dead cards.

Lastly, against UR delver, has anyone tried to play Mom not first to bate other creatures into getting bolted? It has seemed counter intuitive at times not playing her first, but when she lives to see an Untap phase it's really sweet.

Claymore
11-12-2014, 01:59 PM
I agree, once you drop all the utility lands for Knight then you may as well be playing Loxodon Smiter. Maze is good, but against UR Delver I feel like you'll lose to two Delvers or the classic Pyro swarm.

tescrin
11-12-2014, 03:05 PM
My greatest concern about not running Stage/DD or Maze of Ith is that it seems to change the value one can get out of KOTR. I understand dying before KOTR goes off is a big concern, however, when KOTR is out and Untapping, do those players still win the games that the DD/stage or Maze players win? I would argue that in many cases they wouldn't have the same chance. Is getting a fetch, wasteland, horizon canopy, Grove, bog really that big of an impact on the game, especially when we are losing in fair matches? I think further testing with the deck is the best proof one can give, but it sure seems scary to lower the power level of the Knight.
I think you're misconstruing it by pretending it's grabbing Bog/Karakas that wins with knight. KotR is relevant without Depths because he often swings as a 5/5 or bigger. Because he is huge you normally achieve lethal in the two untaps that Lage requires to setup (and often a third to swing.) Untapping with him means you've basically achieved board control in any scenario where the opponent doesn't have DRS + Goyf or you're facing lethal from Delver.

You make an assumption that untapping with KotR in a losing board state happens often. In the cases it happens I'd argue that Lage isn't going to save you terribly often (since you'll likely need to untap two-three times.)


As an aside, there's never a good reason to play Smiter, and similarly, if you didn't run KotR, you'd run Goyf. KotR outsize nic fit and goyf and skull, he helps you deal with Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/12-Post. He's a "hatebear" of sorts. Claiming that without Depths he's a terrible 3-drop misses why you run him in the first place. He's not here just to beat, he's here to improve the myriad matches where a timely double-Wasteland, Karakas, (or Bog if you are so inclined) would insta-gib your opponent.

Stuhl
11-12-2014, 03:29 PM
In some situations I also played Dark Depths to make an opponent waste it. If it's on the board they are usually stressed and fear the combo out of nowhere. So they need to do something. The combo then is destroyed but the opponent lost some ressources. Against StP decks I usually boarded DD out anyway. It's difficult to say. I wouldn't say it's not working or bad in maverick, but it requires a glod feeling and some mind games with your opponents. Even if they StP the token you get 20 life and a bigger Knight. It's just dangerous to combo out if the board is small and you don't have something left.

T-101
11-12-2014, 03:33 PM
I think you're misconstruing it by pretending it's grabbing Bog/Karakas that wins with knight. KotR is relevant without Depths because he often swings as a 5/5 or bigger. Because he is huge you normally achieve lethal in the two untaps that Lage requires to setup (and often a third to swing.) Untapping with him means you've basically achieved board control in any scenario where the opponent doesn't have DRS + Goyf or you're facing lethal from Delver.

You make an assumption that untapping with KotR in a losing board state happens often. In the cases it happens I'd argue that Lage isn't going to save you terribly often (since you'll likely need to untap two-three times.)


As an aside, there's never a good reason to play Smiter, and similarly, if you didn't run KotR, you'd run Goyf. KotR outsize nic fit and goyf and skull, he helps you deal with Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/12-Post. He's a "hatebear" of sorts. Claiming that without Depths he's a terrible 3-drop misses why you run him in the first place. He's not here just to beat, he's here to improve the myriad matches where a timely double-Wasteland, Karakas, (or Bog if you are so inclined) would insta-gib your opponent.

Having DD isn't going to miraculously save you from any losing board state that Legacy can present, but I do think that having the DD option is very valuable, and it can swing some board states in your favor. Against a bunch of Pyromancer tokens, or DnT, or Elves, (the list goes on) a big ass Knight charging into battle just won't win the game fast enough for my liking.

I will freely admit that even when I run DD, I more frequently skip it and just beat with the Knight after finding X Wastelands/Karakas/Bog/Cabal Pit, but it is not rare to find a game state where going for DD will end the game faster.

You certainly don't NEED to play DD to make Knight good, because Knight is plenty powerful without it. It's just another option you can keep in your wheel house, like Safekeeper is to GSZ, or Sword of Light and Shadow is to Stoneforge.

Warden
11-12-2014, 03:41 PM
I think you're misconstruing it by pretending it's grabbing Bog/Karakas that wins with knight. KotR is relevant without Depths because he often swings as a 5/5 or bigger. Because he is huge you normally achieve lethal in the two untaps that Lage requires to setup (and often a third to swing.) Untapping with him means you've basically achieved board control in any scenario where the opponent doesn't have DRS + Goyf or you're facing lethal from Delver.

You make an assumption that untapping with KotR in a losing board state happens often. In the cases it happens I'd argue that Lage isn't going to save you terribly often (since you'll likely need to untap two-three times.)


As an aside, there's never a good reason to play Smiter, and similarly, if you didn't run KotR, you'd run Goyf. KotR outsize nic fit and goyf and skull, he helps you deal with Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/12-Post. He's a "hatebear" of sorts. Claiming that without Depths he's a terrible 3-drop misses why you run him in the first place. He's not here just to beat, he's here to improve the myriad matches where a timely double-Wasteland, Karakas, (or Bog if you are so inclined) would insta-gib your opponent.

I agree with this...except KotR is female (she's a nice lady!)
When there's a team, I usually dig for wastelands to ensure my opponent can't come back. When KotR is alone, I debate about pulling the DD package -- it really depends upon the situation. Even if I don't go for DD/Stage, KotR is usually kicking so much ass already. Competitive players talk so much smack about her they often forget she's in and around 6/6 for 3 mana.

I've found KotR's role in the delver matchup is typically to fetch wastelands for their few duals. If Delver tosses out Island x2 + Mountain early, I just do my best to race them or keep KotR around to "value" thin the deck while blocking.

Against Miracles, I can't see enough KotRs. They are one of the few cards Miracles panics about -- because KotR has the ability to set up an insta-win in DD/Stage or beat them down a few times.

@Spirit of the Labyrinth:
I'm of the opinion that this card doesn't do enough. Against delver it's literally fodder. I'd much prefer Canonist, which can actually block stuff while limiting spells. Delver also can't 2-for-1 me with Forked Bolt. Spirit is only "strong" against Miracles, where it's 3/1 frame can actually attack.

Stuhl
11-12-2014, 03:42 PM
Yeah, that's a good point. In the beginning I always tried to asemble the combo. That's a big fault. Sometimes just grabbing a Wasteland via Knight is better than setting up the combo. It's very situational and as I said requires some practice and a good feeling. For me it just always felt good to know that the combo exists somewhere in my deck and I theoretically have the opportunity to set it up. For the moment I will keep it in my deck I deck.
Thespians Stage alone also won me games. But copying EoT Dryad Arbor and then swing with Jitte. And if you ever played against another DD deck you will know that copying their DD is very ridiculous :P

T-101
11-12-2014, 03:54 PM
And if you ever played against another DD deck you will know that copying their DD is very ridiculous :P

I actually got to do that last night.

Made it on turn 4 of turns, and attacked with it on turn 5... but he remembered he had a Karakas in play :( Given the mana available, and turns left, it was the only conceivable route to victory, so I had to gamble that he wouldn't see it.

ThediscoPower
11-12-2014, 04:02 PM
I think you're misconstruing it by pretending it's grabbing Bog/Karakas that wins with knight. KotR is relevant without Depths because he often swings as a 5/5 or bigger. Because he is huge you normally achieve lethal in the two untaps that Lage requires to setup (and often a third to swing.) Untapping with him means you've basically achieved board control in any scenario where the opponent doesn't have DRS + Goyf or you're facing lethal from Delver.

You make an assumption that untapping with KotR in a losing board state happens often. In the cases it happens I'd argue that Lage isn't going to save you terribly often (since you'll likely need to untap two-three times.)


As an aside, there's never a good reason to play Smiter, and similarly, if you didn't run KotR, you'd run Goyf. KotR outsize nic fit and goyf and skull, he helps you deal with Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/12-Post. He's a "hatebear" of sorts. Claiming that without Depths he's a terrible 3-drop misses why you run him in the first place. He's not here just to beat, he's here to improve the myriad matches where a timely double-Wasteland, Karakas, (or Bog if you are so inclined) would insta-gib your opponent.

That's not true actually. I think I can count on my fingers the situations where marit lage DIDN'T save me on a losing position. After that, I see it as an evaluation of the situation, case by case. Sometimes you wasteland them. Sometimes you make the 20/20. I feel like people think that having stage/dd in your list automaticaly means you are leaning on it, when it's simply an option. Sometimes you go for it, other times you just waste them to stone age. sometimes I even fetch my stage and copy my wasteland, and keep them in stone age.

Also, untaping with knight is relative, as having knight alone on the board doesn't mean you have board control at all actually. Especially not in a world with pyromancers and TNNs and elves. What I can say tho, marit lage is a nice panic option, or a oups i win option (shockingly, sometimes you can just draw it too). It's just that it's not your main plan.

I used to be vocal about stage/dd, and say that it's horrible. after playing it for a few months on mtgo and in paper tournaments, I think i'm never playing without it. In fact, my only problem is trying to understand if I can fit 4 wastelands, craddle, stage and dd in the same list without terrible inconsistancy. And that's the frustrating part, I only own 3 wastelands online, I won't have time to have a good idea about that in time for NJ.

ipvitk
11-12-2014, 04:08 PM
Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sunís Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawaís Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands:
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaeaís Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
SB:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Containment Priest
1 Not Sure- Scavenging Ooze, Gaddock Teeg, Voice of Resurgence, Maze of Ith, Engineered Plague, Oblivion Ring, Wilt Leaf Liege



Congrats on your success with Maverick, good luck on GP. I like your list, and i play similar, but with few changes. I have 3 Teegs in my 75, and 2 Choke in my sb. Also I prefer Council Judgement over O-Ring, I think O-Ring is outclassed now by decay and Miracles playing Judgement mainboard. These 3 cards are key cards to beat miracles + 1 Cavern of Souls, if you want to beat Miracles consistenty play these cards.
I also like to have 1-2 strong creatures sb to beat decks that board in GY hate to fight KotR. I play Linvala or Thrun.
Also I used to play 1 Fauna Shaman main. 5th Zenith is great, as is ability to find non-green creatures like Canonist.

blackdiamonds
11-12-2014, 06:23 PM
E-tutor package anyone?? I've played this package a lot, currently on

2 e-tutor
1 engineered explosive
1 Garruck relentless
1 revoker
1 oring
1 path
1 zp
1 Stoney silence
1 cage
1 choke
1 mind break trap
1 dragon claw
1 e-plague
1 canonist

I don't have any GY hate because 2 ooze n 4 drs main. My list is basically herzogs with some edits. Any cards I'm missing or cards I should just cut?

Warden
11-12-2014, 07:33 PM
I don't see the significance of some of those bullets. Namely 1x Mindbreak Trap. No offense, I can't see how that's going to save the day.

HungryMan
11-13-2014, 03:23 AM
Why do you play Dragon's Claw and not Warmth?
Assuming you don't have a red spash and no counterspells, warmth should always be the better choice. Also it is harder to remove enchantments than artifacts for a lot of decks.

Asthereal
11-13-2014, 04:28 AM
Why do you play Dragon's Claw and not Warmth?
Assuming you don't have a red spash and no counterspells, warmth should always be the better choice. Also it is harder to remove enchantments than artifacts for a lot of decks.
Especially for Red decks, which is the most important point.
Red is good at killing artifacts, but has no way at all to kill enchantments.
This, plus the fact that Warmth is actually the more powerful effect. :cool:

Cambriel
11-13-2014, 02:21 PM
The one thing I have to add right now is that I really do prefer Decay to Path in the sideboard. They're coming in during the same matches where you need extra removal, but vs. Delver decks you're effectively playing Path as a 2 mana spell already to avoid Daze. Path doesn't really have a major advantage there, but Decay is much more useful in other matchups where you want to hit something other than a creature.

Sadly I'm not headed to NJ, but if I were in the current meta I'd probably side something like:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Warmth
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Abrupt Decay

I feel like that's a pretty good start, with some debate between ZP #3 and Tutor #2. Though I'm generally not a huge fan of Tutor-boards, right now it seems like enchantments are very strong (nothing in UR Delver or Burn handles them). It's mostly dead vs. fast combo, but that's a weakness of the archetype. If we can go first and lead Thoughtseize into Thalia, then storm and belcher are doable. Otherwise we'll just die on turn 0.

Barook
11-13-2014, 04:36 PM
Has anybody who runs Cradle tested Titania, Protector of Argoth yet? I'm currently testing Lejay's Sylvan Plug build and the card is the real deal.

I can see applications for this card in Maverick as well, considering we run KotR (and maybe Sylvan Safekeeper) to abuse her even more.

ThediscoPower
11-13-2014, 05:02 PM
Has anybody who runs Cradle tested Titania, Protector of Argoth yet? I'm currently testing Lejay's Sylvan Plug build and the card is ther real deal.

I can see applications for this card in Maverick as well, considering we run KotR (and maybe Sylvan Safekeeper) to abuse her even more.

thought about it, but she seems expensive to run. at that point, I think Sigarda would be better. But that's relative, I don't play Sigarda either.

blackdiamonds
11-14-2014, 12:18 AM
I'm playing sigarda this weekend. Some decks just can't handle it, when you add equipment n exalted triggers it's game ending.

ThediscoPower
11-14-2014, 01:01 AM
I'm playing sigarda this weekend. Some decks just can't handle it, when you add equipment n exalted triggers it's game ending.

I'm still debating to see if I need a big guy. So far, i'm opting for thrun because he seems to pulls his weight better in the current meta, but Sigarda is definitely an option too, along with wilt-leaf. then again, i'm also debating sword of war and peace like in last week end's green and taxes list....

blackdiamonds
11-14-2014, 02:23 AM
Thruns also nice but flying over can be key sometimes

blackdiamonds
11-14-2014, 02:30 AM
Good luck to everyone at the gp. I'm on dark maverick and not super sure in my SB yet.

ironclad8690
11-14-2014, 11:26 PM
Just want to say 1 thing to anybody playing this deck tomorrow: play a Sword of Light and Shadow. You can hardlock entire decks with just SoLaS and Qasali Pridemage, and doing so is ridiculously fun. It is also actually pretty dang good vs Miracles just for the protection. Herzog was definitely on to something with the 2 Swords 1 Jitte equipment package (as were everybody who played this deck 3 years ago)

THerzog41
11-15-2014, 12:27 AM
Miracles is very draw dependant. your chances decrease if they get counter top going, but if you play it right, you can be favored. You need to put pressure on them, without ever overcommiting to the board. Thalia is great (because topping is very mana intensive), and Teeg can completely shut them down if they can't find a plow. You need to not draw plows g1 because they are near dead and instead rely on your non-creature permanents: equipment and library. Don't forget that every land becomes a weapon when you have dryad arbor and equipment (that's why playing marsh flats hurts). some people play it more aggressive and just try to win before they can terminus. I just don't overcommit and go for the long game with equipment.

TMagpie
11-15-2014, 04:41 AM
Miracles is very draw dependant. your chances decrease if they get counter top going, but if you play it right, you can be favored. You need to put pressure on them, without ever overcommiting to the board. Thalia is great (because topping is very mana intensive), and Teeg can completely shut them down if they can't find a plow. You need to not draw plows g1 because they are near dead and instead rely on your non-creature permanents: equipment and library. Don't forget that every land becomes a weapon when you have dryad arbor and equipment (that's why playing marsh flats hurts). some people play it more aggressive and just try to win before they can terminus. I just don't overcommit and go for the long game with equipment.

What are your thoughts on SB Lightning Greaves for the matchup since Teeg+Greaves is pretty good vs Miracles and takes up only 1 SB slot?

tescrin
11-15-2014, 09:59 AM
What are your thoughts on SB Lightning Greaves for the matchup since Teeg+Greaves is pretty good vs Miracles and takes up only 1 SB slot?

SoLaS gives you the same protection while making Teeg a deadly beater. Aside from it allowing you to swing through reanimator and things, D&T is a DTB and Maverick is in a position to be played more; both of which imply that SoLaS is reasonably positioned.

blackdiamonds
11-15-2014, 01:54 PM
I'm at gp nj with this

4 waste
4 Heath
2 verdent
1 forest
1 plains
1 dryad
1 cradle
1 maze
1canopy
1 karakas
3 savanna
1 bayou
1 scrubland
3 knight
2 ooze
1 safekeeper
1sigarda
1 teeg
1 scryb
1 noble
4 drs
4 mom
3 qpm
3 Thalia
2 sfm
1 elspeth
2 library
3 gsz
4 stp
1 jitte
1 light n shadow
1 fire n ice
SB::::::::::::
3 canonist
2 thoughtsieze
2 zealous
1choke
1 geddon
1decay
1 path
1cage
1 plauge
1needle
1 e tutor

Currently 1-1
Beat USA delver 2-0
Lost to elves 0-2

haganbmj
11-15-2014, 03:40 PM
I'm at gp nj with this

*LIST*

Currently 1-1
Beat USA delver 2-0
Lost to elves 0-2

Keep us posted, looks like a pretty stable list.

blackdiamonds
11-15-2014, 06:33 PM
3-2 lost to elves twice. Beat UWR delver,burn n ant. 13 cards isn't enough I guess

ironclad8690
11-15-2014, 06:56 PM
Check out how many trial winners we have!

All of the best Mavericks in one place:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=08/24/2014&end_date=11/16/2014&event_ID=5&city=Edison&state=NJ&start_num=25&start_num=0&limit=25

Fabian Goerzen is there, our very own Warden, and like 2-3 other people! Maverick is back baby! 19% of the trial winners were playing Maverick of some sort.

BTW: Warden is busting out some sick SB tech in the No Pro

Fatal
11-15-2014, 07:08 PM
Interesting fact - almost all of those maverick was running 7+ removal spells Decay for Junk lists, and Punishing fire for Jund one. Looks like Delver/Swiftspear won't ride to victory.

bakofried
11-15-2014, 07:09 PM
Holy mother of god, that's some density.

ironclad8690
11-15-2014, 07:15 PM
Just having that many decklists on one page of results and having them be winners? We haven't seen these numbers since the printing of Thalia.

haganbmj
11-15-2014, 07:31 PM
Compiling them here for easier access.

Punishing Maverick; Fabian Gorzgen (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76103)
Spells (22+13=35)Lands (25)Sideboard (15)
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg

1 Batterskull
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog


Maverick; Conor McCormack (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76095)
Spells (22+14=36)Lands (24)Sideboard (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1 Batterskull
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tower of the Magistrate


Maverick; Christopher Scagnelli (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76083)
Spells (24+13=37)Lands (23)Sideboard (15)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Armageddon
3 Natural Order
2 Toxic Deluge


Maverick; Rory Bokser (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76092)
Spells (24+13=37)Lands (23)Sideboard (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Batterskull
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Thoughtseize


Maverick; Noel Thompson (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76093)
Spells (24+13=37)Lands (23)Sideboard (15)
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
4 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Tower of the Magistrate
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Engineered Plague
1 Crop Rotation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bojuka Bog

Fatal
11-15-2014, 07:44 PM
Interesting I would ask Fabiano a question - why not pyroblast/reb in SB ?

ironclad8690
11-15-2014, 09:16 PM
Jon Stern was 6-0 with Dark Maverick at the beginning of Round 7.

Here is his deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/dark_maverick_deck_tech_with_j.html

Koby
11-15-2014, 11:41 PM
Jon Stern was 6-0 with Dark Maverick at the beginning of Round 7.

Here is his deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/dark_maverick_deck_tech_with_j.html

Dislike this list very much. Tarmgoyf is the worst call to make in an expected field of Young Pyromancers. And his is from someone who won a Pro Tour and Grand Prixes? SMH

Fatal
11-16-2014, 06:09 AM
I see also bright side of Tarmogoyfs - Burn MU - it brings enough fast clock, and wall vs monastery swiftspears. Anyway I would for sure add more Ooze instead of 1-2 Goyfs.

Claymore
11-16-2014, 10:29 AM
Went an abysmal 2-4-1 at the gp with a similar Abrupt Decay list to these guys, beating BUG and Infect, losing to 12post (x2), Reanimator, Sneak and Show with Omniscience (anti Karakas tech), and drew 1-1 with a slow UR Delver.

I'll chalk it up to terrible matchups and opponents who got extremely lucky...top decking just what they needed.

Dark Depths was absolutely critical in all matches, getting me wins from impossible board situations and or forcing the opponent to have the one out they needed on the top of their deck.

This deck can beat UR Delver fine and Goyf does a good job of walling off Swiftspear. It would be better in combo matchups to end the game while your hate bears are still alive.

nevilshute
11-17-2014, 07:39 AM
I would appreciate if someone with experience could walk me through why we would want to play with Sword of Light and Shadow as our 3rd equipment (I'm playing a list very similar to Thomas Herzog). I'm running 1 jitte, 1 sofai and would like to give solas a shot. I mean all of the swords are pretty powerful, but why light and shadow over, say, feast and famine? The effect just seems weaker. Is it a concession to burn being a more prevalent strategy (and wouldn't a 2nd Jitte just be better then?)? Is it because regrowthing stuff like pridemages etc is more powerful than I think it is?

Any insight would be great :smile:

Warden
11-17-2014, 09:29 AM
Quick notes from the weekend.

I played all day Fri and Sat. Didn't make the cutoff for Sunday so I made the long drive home
I met Herzog. Dude is very nice. Unfortunately only spoke with him briefly once or twice (plus I didn't want to pester him with questions).

I won a grinder, as my list is seen above (thanks for compiling lists!). I took what Herzog said about Cradle and put it to use. It was fantastic all event.
The grinder list I ran through opponents with NO --> Ruric Thar (enchantress player had a WTF moment when he saw me drop this thing). I didn't want to gamble with this setup for the main event. Only once did I want to have DD/Stage...the other times Cradle was the superior call. You blow out when you can tap for [cost of equipment] + [equip to a dude].

I went 5-1-1 then had 2 draws where my opponents (Jund, Miracles) would not scoop to me in time. I finished 5-1-3 but from several players watching me in the later rounds, I would have been X-1-1 and in day 2. I can't complain too much. I felt I played well, despite some annoyances. The core of DRS, KotR, Mom, Thalia, QPM was amazing. Scooze was a strong play for the delver-filled room. Only faced the deck twice (RUG and UR).

@LightandShadow
I trumped 2 DnT players with this card + a Junk player. In 1 memorable game, I had Thalia run through the DnT player's line while doing "Qasali loops". Declare attk --> exalted --> pop QPM on their equip/vials --> damage --> lifegain + recur QPM --> recast. So yea, I lived the dream that game.

Only "loss" I had the entire weekend was to RUG (goyf, delver, yp, tc). He had the nuts both games and I was on the backfoot from turn 1 onward :(

T-101
11-17-2014, 09:43 AM
I would appreciate if someone with experience could walk me through why we would want to play with Sword of Light and Shadow as our 3rd equipment (I'm playing a list very similar to Thomas Herzog). I'm running 1 jitte, 1 sofai and would like to give solas a shot. I mean all of the swords are pretty powerful, but why light and shadow over, say, feast and famine? The effect just seems weaker. Is it a concession to burn being a more prevalent strategy (and wouldn't a 2nd Jitte just be better then?)? Is it because regrowthing stuff like pridemages etc is more powerful than I think it is?

Any insight would be great :smile:

The big draw to SoLaS is getting a guy back. If you're expecting your dudes to get bolted or countered or Abrupt Decayed, it is very powerful. Rebuying a big Knight, MoM, or Qasali can be huge.

The protection is also pretty big against some decks. Once it's on a guy, it can't get StP'd, and it can walk through Stoneforge, a Germ token, and the entire Death and Taxes deck.

I've tinkered with the 3 good swords, and I still prefer Jitte and Batterskull for the main, though some run a sword or 2 instead of Batterskull.

tescrin
11-17-2014, 12:25 PM
Dislike this list very much. Tarmgoyf is the worst call to make in an expected field of Young Pyromancers. And his is from someone who won a Pro Tour and Grand Prixes? SMH

Goyf is fine against UR if it helps you gain control of the game, it just simply doesn't bring you back from behind very easily. That said, the UR games I won at my LCS this last week were Goyfs stopping swiftspears and slowly munching all of the tokens. He's not there to race, he's there to stabilize against Swiftspear.

Koby
11-17-2014, 12:36 PM
Goyf is fine against UR if it helps you gain control of the game, it just simply doesn't bring you back from behind very easily. That said, the UR games I won at my LCS this last week were Goyfs stopping swiftspears and slowly munching all of the tokens. He's not there to race, he's there to stabilize against Swiftspear.

I prefer Abrupt Decay in these cases. It looks like several people took that heart over the weekend. I am even for testing Courser of Kruphix as a wall with better utility. Maverick just doesn't have enough room for creatures with only Power and Toughness printed on their textbox.

It should be noted that Jon Stern with the Goyf list went 2-4 in Day 2, while others did much better (like Herzog).

Fatal
11-17-2014, 03:22 PM
I would rather take a lot at - Sudden Shock - I saw how it works in U/R landstill and was surprised how big use it has. It kills all except KotR/Goyfs/random MUD monsters. Its big question does you need uncounterable removal, which dodge also MoR, Decay's can in the same role, but it doesn't kill MoR. IF your meta is infected with Delvers/Young Pyromancers you can get it a spin.

Warden
11-17-2014, 05:16 PM
I prefer Abrupt Decay in these cases. It looks like several people took that heart over the weekend. I am even for testing Courser of Kruphix as a wall with better utility. Maverick just doesn't have enough room for creatures with only Power and Toughness printed on their textbox.

It should be noted that Jon Stern with the Goyf list went 2-4 in Day 2, while others did much better (like Herzog).

I agree with most of this. Decay is so good it's the only non staple spell (gsz, swords, sylvan, equips) I'd consider running in the main. I had 2 in the SB at GPNJ and they were fantastic.

sdematt
11-17-2014, 06:27 PM
Went an abysmal 2-4-1 at the gp with a similar Abrupt Decay list to these guys, beating BUG and Infect, losing to 12post (x2), Reanimator, Sneak and Show with Omniscience (anti Karakas tech), and drew 1-1 with a slow UR Delver.

I'll chalk it up to terrible matchups and opponents who got extremely lucky...top decking just what they needed.

Dark Depths was absolutely critical in all matches, getting me wins from impossible board situations and or forcing the opponent to have the one out they needed on the top of their deck.

This deck can beat UR Delver fine and Goyf does a good job of walling off Swiftspear. It would be better in combo matchups to end the game while your hate bears are still alive.

Was your opponent a mid 30's Asian man with a foiled out SnT deck with the Omnisciences? If so, go go Team Vancouver :P

-Matt

magic.rar
11-17-2014, 10:48 PM
I also played at the GP - one of the grinder winners. (Rory)
I played a list very similar to the one Herzog posted, same maindeck and a few sideboard changes. I ended up removing the Sorin for the GP (it was more of an experiment).
During the grinder I played Jund, Rock, Lands (odd build), D&T and BUG. I should have lost the finals, but my opponent nervously forgot a delver flip when we were both top-decking. Went 9-1 in games during the grinder (1-0 vs. lands).

For the GP, I went 6-3, and am a little disappointed.
After 2 byes I played merfolk and won, and then won a close match against UR delver.
In round 5, I was paired against Eric Froelich and I think the nerves slowly got to me. I easily won game 1, and then started to misplay horribly.
I had the judge called on me when I cast a GSZ with a Teeg in play... I just stopped thinking. It was my first GP, but I think I could have done better - he won in 3.

I then lost a close match to reanimator where he had t2 Elesh Norn game 1, and I couldn't find a StP despite Sylvan Library and multiple fetches.
Won the next round against merfolk, but then lost to Dark Depths, finishing my chances for day 2. In the last round I beat Elves - he mulled to 4 game 1.

Jon Stern is a local player, and so I know him pretty well. At our hotel, I discussed my dislike for tarmogoyf, but he was happy with playing as aggressively as possible in matchups like Miracles, where a single Goyf can do a lot of work. It did very well for him day 1, but I watched a match of his day 2 where his opponent Chain lightninged the Goyf and then killed it with a Treasure Cruise.
Our other local players agreed that the Goyfs were out of place.

Overall the event was a blast - I also got to meet Herzog, who was very kind. And I'm confident that Maverick will be a good choice going forward.

haganbmj
11-17-2014, 11:05 PM
I also played at the GP - one of the grinder winners. (Rory)
I played a list very similar to the one Herzog posted, same maindeck and a few sideboard changes. I ended up removing the Sorin for the GP (it was more of an experiment).

Overall the event was a blast - I also got to meet Herzog, who was very kind. And I'm confident that Maverick will be a good choice going forward.

Congratulations on the success this weekend. Quick question on your sideboard though, what swaps do you make for the Delver/Pyromancer matchups? You seem to have a small mountain of applicable cards you could bring in.

The Grinder Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Thoughtseize

magic.rar
11-18-2014, 12:07 AM
I typically would bring in

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Zealous Persecution

-1 Qasali Pridemage
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Horizon Canopy

I leave 1 pridemage in as a GSZ target for possible sideboard hate (Blood Moon, etc. - fetching basics is key, but need black for SB cards).
The libraries are slow for the matchup, and you can almost never afford to use them to draw a card.
Sword of Light and Shadow comes out - Jitte is almost always the right SFM target.
Horizon Canopy can be very dangerous as their plan is to race you. It also doesn't produce the black needed for the incoming cards. I'm not 100% sure this is correct.

I don't think the matchup needs too many sideboard options. It is already quite a good matchup and I'm happy playing 90%+ of the maindeck.

ironclad8690
11-18-2014, 01:06 AM
I typically would bring in

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Zealous Persecution

-1 Qasali Pridemage
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Horizon Canopy

I leave 1 pridemage in as a GSZ target for possible sideboard hate (Blood Moon, etc. - fetching basics is key, but need black for SB cards).
The libraries are slow for the matchup, and you can almost never afford to use them to draw a card.
Sword of Light and Shadow comes out - Jitte is almost always the right SFM target.
Horizon Canopy can be very dangerous as their plan is to race you. It also doesn't produce the black needed for the incoming cards. I'm not 100% sure this is correct.

I don't think the matchup needs too many sideboard options. It is already quite a good matchup and I'm happy playing 90%+ of the maindeck.

Interesting, if I had Batterskull SB I would totally bring it in vs that deck.

I played in my weekly local going 2-0-1.

Round 1: Bant: 1-1-1: Game 1 He gets a quick True-Name with a Jitte on it and I don't have an answer. Game 2 draws out forever, but I am able to deathrite him down to low enough that a 13/13 Knight Swing + mom (despite him having an ooze with 5 green sources untapped) can make him take 8 damage. Time went off as we were shuffling for game 3.

Round 2: Death and Taxes: 2-0 Game 1 Sword of Light and Shadow goes to town re-buying qasali and he doesn't draw enough lands, while I curved out perfectly. Game 2 Courser of Kruphix with Sword of Light and Shadow wrecks his team. Seriously guys, play SoLaS.

Round 3: UWR Blade: 2-1: Game 1 I am overwhelmed by TNN + Jitte early. Game 2: I choke him out on turn 3 and he doesn't recover. Game 3: I am able to gain an early advantage with Mother of Runes and Thalia. Think of the feature match from Saturday if things had gone perfectly for the Maverick player and poorly for the UWR player. I had the Zealous persecution, got SoLaS on Thalia, had double MoR up each turn, and a sylvan library in ply for most of the game (and a commanding mana advantage thanks to Gaea's Cradle).

I am convinced that Dark Mav with the 2 Swords 1 Jitte equip package is the way to go in the current meta.

Strassbaw
11-18-2014, 04:59 AM
The match-up against UR delver has been really bad for me recently. I am considering running a crazy narrow sideboard option to beat the deck. The card I am considering is Sivvi's Ruse. This card might be the free spell that keeps my Mom alive or KotR in a desperate situation after resolution. I'm gonna order those cards and give it a try.

maharis
11-18-2014, 11:15 AM
The match-up against UR delver has been really bad for me recently. I am considering running a crazy narrow sideboard option to beat the deck. The card I am considering is Sivvi's Ruse. This card might be the free spell that keeps my Mom alive or KotR in a desperate situation after resolution. I'm gonna order those cards and give it a try.

If I may make a suggestion...

Vault of the Archangel

You'd be surprised how many decks can't beat a Knight of any decent size finding this thing.

I have been playing a Knight in Nic Fit with this as a target and it just crushes all these bolt + little guy decks. When you are gaining 5 a turn they can't keep up.

My only reservation about it in Maverick is that typically you guys are playing Wasteland so you don't always have 5 lands in play, correct? But maybe it's possible to activate with DRS or Hierarch helping out.

Also, the activation is insane with Thalia, as first strike + deathtouch kills anything in combat unless they are blocking with a pro-white creature.

ThediscoPower
11-18-2014, 11:22 AM
The match-up against UR delver has been really bad for me recently. I am considering running a crazy narrow sideboard option to beat the deck. The card I am considering is Sivvi's Ruse. This card might be the free spell that keeps my Mom alive or KotR in a desperate situation after resolution. I'm gonna order those cards and give it a try.

But in that case, why not just run apotle's blessing if you want to go down that road? it seems just better in general, and protects from swords too, as well as protect your equipments.

Also, quick report as i'm at work, I also played in NJ, and went 5-3 drop day 1

Crushed delvers, lost 3 (!) times to jeskai stoneblade... I was playing with a list close to Herzog (got to meet him too, very nice guy), only real change was that i played 4 mana dorks, and played +1 stoneforge and batterskull instead of SoLaS. Also, path to exile was horrible, I played 1 in my side, and it definetly should have been the second decay (that was nice all day).

Claymore
11-18-2014, 12:22 PM
Was your opponent a mid 30's Asian man with a foiled out SnT deck with the Omnisciences? If so, go go Team Vancouver :P

-Matt

Haha, yes it was. Guy was really cool. I asked him where he was from out of custom without seeing his 30 pieces of Vancouver flair. I had a classic DnT opening game 1 of Mom, Thalia both off of Caverns with a Knight off of Show and Tell to fetch Karakas for the Emrakul. Got blown out game 2 when I used Caverns to play Mother instead of fetching a basic Plains because he got a turn 2 Blood Moon...my hand had a Thalia but that's about it for white cards though. Game 3 he did turn 1 or 2 Show and Tell, which I put in Knight, but he put in Omniscience and then Emrakul.

Other GP highlights included:

GPT: Round one opponent didn't realize he needed a decklist, so he left to start filling one out, partially completed one, then left. Round 2 I got a good Not-Miracles from Jupiter Games and got crushed.

12post (round 1): Trickbinds on Wasteland, Bounce on Knights, early Karakas for Thalia, Cyclonic Rifts on my board to buy time to get critical mass of Cloudposts into play to endlessly loop Emrakul castings. Game 2 was pretty similar but I ended up getting a Marit Lage in response to a Kozilek, which found the last Crop Rotation for Karakas. I did get to chain SoLaS with Pridemage to kill several Candles.

Edit: Once I finally did get a Knight established, he managed to play Titania...so I couldn't waste or Geddon him out. I should've fetched Karakas I guess but then I'm just falling behind and he won pretty soon afterwards.

Infect (round 2): Crushing games 1 and 2 with turn 3 or 4 Marit Lages and removal.

BUG (round 3): Recovered from awful board states of Liliana, True-Name, SFM, DRS vs a Knight and two lands at like 9 life to win with Marit Lage.

Reanimator (round 5, eliminated): Turn 1 Griselbrand, buried from there. Game 2, despite Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Thoughtseize he top decked Entomb and Exhume after each discard spell - for Iona on white. I was one turn too late to GSZ for Knight, and I think he dazed it anyway.

I haven't done extensive testing with Cradle, and clearly I had the worst performance at the GP of those posting, but I feel like it is a borderline win more card. If you have a lot of creatures on board to work with to get anything out of Cradle past an Ancient Tomb or Temple of the False God, then you're already in a good position.

T-101
11-18-2014, 01:46 PM
The match-up against UR delver has been really bad for me recently. I am considering running a crazy narrow sideboard option to beat the deck. The card I am considering is Sivvi's Ruse. This card might be the free spell that keeps my Mom alive or KotR in a desperate situation after resolution. I'm gonna order those cards and give it a try.

I've found the U/R Delver match favorable, and I was really hoping to play against more of them at the GP. Untapping with Mom makes it a nightmare for them, and Thalia really causes problems for them. It should go without saying that you should avoid deploying a 3/3 Knight, as that way they have to spend 2 spells on it. Beyond that, aggressive Knighting for Wasteland when they have Volcanic Islands is another key play, especially when you have Thalia.

I also think that boarding a 2nd Jitte sounds very awesome right now. They are going to bring in Smash, and having another Jitte seems so good against them. Better than having a Sword of Fire and Ice in my opinion. I've only played about 15 matches against the deck so far, so my results are not 100% indicative of the true match up, but maybe some of this can help you out.

Strassbaw
11-18-2014, 02:54 PM
@ maharis - the land card seems like a cool choice, however, 5 mana in my build and black mana are hard to come by. I'll consider that option if I change things up.

@T-101 - I play punishing dark maverick and my Mu isn't good with UR right now. Sivvis's Ruse might allow me to stabilize for free and untap my dudes leading to win I'd hope. How do you board against UR? Do you play the DD/Stage combo or any specific board cards? Bloodmoon makes this matchup very awkward for me.

@Thediscopower - Sivvi's Ruse is free and helps all creatures I control (maybe some cool life saving blocks could happen after resolution) and it's just a board card. I'd never try a card with a similar function main deck. I've been playing pyroblast and Zealous Persecution out of the board in the match, and I never feel like they are enough or much better than what I already take out of my deck.

Warden
11-19-2014, 10:36 AM
While I'm pleased with GP NJ (10-1-3 Fri and Sat), the bigger takeaway is how well positioned Maverick is. If you have decent experience piloting the deck, you can literally outplay less sophisticated players. Not sour my final 2 opponents didn't scoop to push me to day 2, but I wonder if I could have made top 100.

Of the few cards I acquired, I really want to run Titania. I think Titania + Geddon will create some extremely uncomfortable blowouts for control to deal with. Titania also turns fetches + knights into multiple 5/3's. That's nothing to scoff at either.

H
11-19-2014, 10:39 AM
While I'm pleased with GP NJ (10-1-3 Fri and Sat), the bigger takeaway is how well positioned Maverick is. If you have decent experience piloting the deck, you can literally outplay less sophisticated players. Not sour my final 2 opponents didn't scoop to push me to day 2, but I wonder if I could have made top 100.

Of the few cards I acquired, I really want to run Titania. I think Titania + Geddon will create some extremely uncomfortable blowouts for control to deal with. Titania also turns fetches + knights into multiple 5/3's. That's nothing to scoff at either.

What about Titania and Sylvan Safekeeper? Plus, Safekeeper with Gaddock Teeg is pretty good too.

T-101
11-19-2014, 11:55 AM
What about Titania and Sylvan Safekeeper? Plus, Safekeeper with Gaddock Teeg is pretty good too.

I thought about including Titania this weekend, but opted not to because I didn't want to try completely untested tech. I am already running 1 Safekeeper, and I think if I included a Cradle to boost mana production for GSZ, Titania could easily have a place in the deck.

EOT, sac all my lands, make a bunch of 5/3 Elementals seems like it would end most games. Paying 6 mana is a rough, but if it presents you with a 1 turn clock, that seems worth testing out. I'll give it a whirl and see if there's anything worth posting by next week.

Warden
11-19-2014, 01:29 PM
I generally don't like safekeeper. I understand the alpha strike combo but can't see a matchup where that's "better" than simply using Titania and grinding out 5/3 guys. Miracles can at any moment terminus you out or respond to Titania triggers. If she's on the table, I'm happy with whatever else happens. Against crap like DnT or UR Delver, again, I like Titania being on the table and her triggers being gravy. I don't believe my playstyle needs to milk Titania. She's fucking powerful based on the players who used her. Even the ability to recur a land when she comes into play ---> wasteland ---> is nuking resources while making a 5/3. That's serious value. I wouldn't jam Safekeeper despite the synergy. I think Safekeeper detracts from the overall list. That's my 2 cents.

HoneyT
11-19-2014, 01:49 PM
Titania is the fucking truth. She is so good.

T-101
11-19-2014, 03:15 PM
I generally don't like safekeeper. I understand the alpha strike combo but can't see a matchup where that's "better" than simply using Titania and grinding out 5/3 guys. Miracles can at any moment terminus you out or respond to Titania triggers. If she's on the table, I'm happy with whatever else happens. Against crap like DnT or UR Delver, again, I like Titania being on the table and her triggers being gravy. I don't believe my playstyle needs to milk Titania. She's fucking powerful based on the players who used her. Even the ability to recur a land when she comes into play ---> wasteland ---> is nuking resources while making a 5/3. That's serious value. I wouldn't jam Safekeeper despite the synergy. I think Safekeeper detracts from the overall list. That's my 2 cents.

I guess we just have a difference of opinion on Safekeeper.

I'm not advocating Safekeeper based solely on the "Combo-Kill" of giving something Shroud 4 or 5 times and making a bunch of 5/3s, I just like Safekeeper as a Zenith target. Being that when I play this style of deck that I'm already including a Safekeeper, the option of EOT army seems worth keeping in the ol' wheelhouse.

Of course, going all in with Titania/Safekeeper vs. Miracles is... unwise (assuming we don't have a Teeg in play). But I wouldn't mind going for it against other decks. If I'm against Delver/Storm/Elves/Dredge, I could see myself going for it.

ironclad8690
11-19-2014, 07:40 PM
So, I know recently Tom commented on here and was saying that he has enjoyed the inclusion of Courser of Kruphix in his deck. If the meta begins to shift away from UR Delver style decks and shifts towards UWR Blade deck, do you guys think that slot would go back to Qasali Pridemage?

Koby
11-19-2014, 08:09 PM
So, I know recently Tom commented on here and was saying that he has enjoyed the inclusion of Courser of Kruphix in his deck. If the meta begins to shift away from UR Delver style decks and shifts towards UWR Blade deck, do you guys think that slot would go back to Qasali Pridemage?

Why not both?.jpg

ironclad8690
11-19-2014, 08:26 PM
Why not both?.jpg

I guess it just comes down to if 3 QPM or 2 QPM/1 COK (lol) is the right call. I have been testing Courser and liking him, but he seemed to be an inclusion mostly for UR delver. A couple of the local players at my store have opted for the new flavor of the week, UWR blade, over their previous UR Delver decks.

Warden
11-19-2014, 10:34 PM
Titania is the fucking truth. She is so good.

I know man. It's a shame we aren't discussing her more.

bakofried
11-19-2014, 11:33 PM
I ordered one just in case. I think she has a lot of potential, especially with knight on the field (which isn't really a winmore scenario).

TMagpie
11-20-2014, 12:48 AM
Titania is the fucking truth. She is so good.

Pretty much, if you wanted to run Sigarda, you should run Titania instead.
However, if you were not running Sigarda, then you probably should not force Titania.

GreenSun4Zero
11-20-2014, 01:32 PM
Assuming most players are playing with some number of Deathrite Shamans over Noble Hierarch, what does your manabase look like? The singleton bullets like Karakas, Cradle, Arbor, Maze, etc. are fine to discuss, but more interested in the things that get you to casting Knight. Are 6 forest/plains/swamps enough for 9 fetches (and the occasional Knight for fetch)?

DudeItsCorey
11-20-2014, 01:44 PM
Pretty much, if you wanted to run Sigarda, you should run Titania instead.
However, if you were not running Sigarda, then you probably should not force Titania.

I don't know if I agree with that. Sigarda has different applications. The hexproof is great against heavy removal midrange decks. The flying makes her especially great against any planeswalkers and at carrying equipment. Her can't have you sac from opponents spells/abilities is relevant against Liliana, Eldrazi, etc.

Titania is only good if you have Knight out, or have wasteland and fetches on your board. I assume if you hard casting/green sunning for her, you probably have already ran through your fetches and wastelands (besides the 1 land you get with her entering the battlefield). However, having 5/3 is never a bad thing. I just don't think that you're going to be making as many tokens as you think you are. It isn't a young pyromancer or anything. Now this is all being said without play testing her. However, Titania only seems conditional good while if Sigarda hits the table, its usually an assured victory.

TheoryCraft
11-20-2014, 06:02 PM
Good afternoon, everyone. Long time reader, first time poster on The Source. I post over at MTG Salvation under the same user name (TheoryCraft). I do not claim to be an MTG master, though I do have a few IQ Top 8's under my belt and I've been reading and playtesting long enough to feel comfortable to chime in.

I am planning on getting some significant playtesting in next weekend with different Maverick variants, but nonetheless my mainstay list has been - and will likely continue to be - a list akin to Tom Herzog's (no DD/Thespian, load up QPM, 2x Sylvan, 4/1 DRS:Noble split, no cute Safekeeper/Scryb Ranger stuff, etc.). As an aside, Tom, I greatly respect your patient game play and championing of the Maverick banner at SCG events this year (and also the fact that I am a Michigan State law grad, so the MSU ties run deep). I too have felt like Maverick has been underrated for quite some time now. I am in agreement with your earlier statement that any Maverick list that does not run 4x Thalia is just not well-equipped to handle the general meta right now (obviously YMMV at local gaming stores).

My question is, have you (Tom) or anyone else had an opportunity to get impactful testing in on Courser of Kruphix? It seems like an interesting pet card and particularly strong against UR Delver and Burn, both of which are well-positioned at the moment, but I can't help but think that a 2x mainboard Ooze is just better most of the time. Courser with Sylvan is ridiculous, I agree, but then again so is an Ooze with Gaea's Cradle in play. Also, in general, Ooze presents a strong threat that most decks need to remove immediately or suffer the consequences (especially decks that do not have AD or StP). What are your thoughts on the 2nd Ooze?

TMagpie
11-20-2014, 11:34 PM
I don't know if I agree with that. Sigarda has different applications. The hexproof is great against heavy removal midrange decks. The flying makes her especially great against any planeswalkers and at carrying equipment. Her can't have you sac from opponents spells/abilities is relevant against Liliana, Eldrazi, etc.

Titania is only good if you have Knight out, or have wasteland and fetches on your board. I assume if you hard casting/green sunning for her, you probably have already ran through your fetches and wastelands (besides the 1 land you get with her entering the battlefield). However, having 5/3 is never a bad thing. I just don't think that you're going to be making as many tokens as you think you are. It isn't a young pyromancer or anything. Now this is all being said without play testing her. However, Titania only seems conditional good while if Sigarda hits the table, its usually an assured victory.

I guess, to me, you can only really have one 4 or 5 drop in the 75 and I like having explosive options as my trumps as opposed to safer options.

Or maybe I'm just enthralled by the artwork--in either case, I feel like (as a trump card) Titania seems like something you could leverage for more 180's in game state than a "mere" (and I say that jokingly) 5/5 flyer.

That being said, I was a staunch Sigarda loyalist until I tested Dark Depths for the first time, so maybe I'm just in a token kick.

barcode
11-21-2014, 08:47 AM
I guess it just comes down to if 3 QPM or 2 QPM/1 COK (lol) is the right call. I have been testing Courser and liking him, but he seemed to be an inclusion mostly for UR delver. A couple of the local players at my store have opted for the new flavor of the week, UWR blade, over their previous UR Delver decks.

I love Courser. I made the change before the GP after reading the suggestion and I was extremely happy with it. I can't imagine needing (okay strictly speaking blowing up all their equipment is good, but w/e) more than two pridemages, especially in the SFM mirror, for game 2 perhaps there's another pridemage and k-grip to bring in.

ninja edit - Courser synergizes very well with Sylvan Library. In a midrange mirror it's very important to get card advantage and Courser + Sylvan Library fits the bill.

ThediscoPower
11-21-2014, 10:24 AM
I love Courser. I made the change before the GP after reading the suggestion and I was extremely happy with it. I can't imagine needing (okay strictly speaking blowing up all their equipment is good, but w/e) more than two pridemages, especially in the SFM mirror, for game 2 perhaps there's another pridemage and k-grip to bring in.

ninja edit - Courser synergizes very well with Sylvan Library. In a midrange mirror it's very important to get card advantage and Courser + Sylvan Library fits the bill.

I agree with this. I ended up trying the card online first, just because I wasn't sure about it, but I am now very happy with it. Even if you can't hide anything when it gets into play, generating card advantage and gaining free lifes is just so good. And the power toughness are also good.

Yep, I am convinced by it now.

Now, if I could just get a Titania online, or any cmd 2014 card for that matter...

TMagpie
11-22-2014, 11:02 AM
I agree with this. I ended up trying the card online first, just because I wasn't sure about it, but I am now very happy with it. Even if you can't hide anything when it gets into play, generating card advantage and gaining free lifes is just so good. And the power toughness are also good.

Yep, I am convinced by it now.

Now, if I could just get a Titania online, or any cmd 2014 card for that matter...

Which aspect of the card is good--the "land draw" or the lifegain? It seems like it has too little of each for 3 mana, but how is it actually playing out? What matchups do you actually zenith for it instead of a Knight?