[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[TMagpie]

Not really. Thalia is the best because she's a 2cc (1+W) taxer with first strike. Anything in the 3-hole needs to really do damage. This is just more of the tax. This flyer still loses to burn, terminus, wrath, and a swarm of opposing creatures. Most of us already don't bother with Aven Mindcensor, who IMO is miles better for the deck as a whole. If you want spells to simply cost more, run 4x Thalia and some amount of Thorn of Amethyst. The pegasus just isnt enough.

What about in Death and Taxes? Wouldn't the Pegasus reinforce their strategy of mana denial even further?

[Cambriel]

D&T could already play Glowrider at the 3 spot if they really wanted another tax effect.

[Seraphix]

Hello!
I'm just getting into legacy and I've chosen maverick as my first deck!

This is the 75 I have in mind, but I'm not 100% sure on it (especially the sideboard).
From the minor proxied testing I have done I have really enjoyed Titania as the curvetopper bomb. She allows us to go wide if the going high plan with Knight of the Reliquary isn't working, as well as having some minor Karakas synergy.

I'd love any type of feedback, negative or positive, but please be constructive. Explain why some card choices are bad/good, I only want to learn more about this awesome format!

Not sure if posting links is allowed, so I put the decklist in here. Please update me if a tappedout link is preferred :)

...




Wooded Foothills is strictly worse than Verdant Catacombs if you're playing a Scrubland.

I'd suggest finding room for a 2nd Library and Sword of Light and Shadow in the 75, both mainly being concessions to the poor yet abundant Miracles matchup.

[TMagpie]

D&T could already play Glowrider at the 3 spot if they really wanted another tax effect.

Some lists run Mindscensor as a hatebear flyer to help get equipment across. Is this not a strict upgrade specifically because its an Aven Mindscensor with a more relevant ability?

[Warden]

Some lists run Mindscensor as a hatebear flyer to help get equipment across. Is this not a strict upgrade specifically because its an Aven Mindscensor with a more relevant ability?

This is hard for me to grasp. I'm assuming you're asking which ability is better (given the "more relevant ability" statement). If you're comparing the new card (thalia tax #2) to Mindcensor, I am of the opinion mindcensor is more powerful.
Both Maverick and DnT like Thalia. However, if I were inclined to run a 2W 2/1 flying thing, Mindcensor's flash + ability to stop people from digging from fetches/respond to tutors/respond to SFM is better. It's also a flash-blocker. The new guy is better in bulk (ie; if you have multiple copies on the table), but at that point I'd argue you ought to be winning the game regardless. Both bodies (new pegasus and censor) are identical...and they die miserably to ping effects (see: burn like forked bolt). I also think given the way Maverick is evolving (more spells like decay and stuff in the main), I wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot too much. I still rely on GSZ and equipment and there are awk moments when Thalia interferes with my lines. I would have to shift the focus of the deck considerably to mitigate these problems. I welcome the card, but would really need to test it out. If the opponent plays lots of creatures as well, this thing is a waste of space in the deck IMO.

[Barook]

Thoughts on Evolutionary Leap? Nothing too fancy, just 1-2 copies to add to GSZ and Library shenanigans. It makes spot removal much worse and can diminish the effect of mass removal if you have mana open. It would also make SoLaS for recursion better.

[Warden]

Thoughts on Evolutionary Leap? Nothing too fancy, just 1-2 copies to add to GSZ and Library shenanigans. It makes spot removal much worse and can diminish the effect of mass removal if you have mana open. It would also make SoLaS for recursion better.

I have mixed feelings. It doesn't put the card into play. Plus you need to keep mana open (something I don't find myself doing unless I'm durdling).

[Barook]

It just struck me: Why aren't we running Wilt-Leaf Liege as GSZ target? It has a nice body that is bolt-proof and AD-immune, is a double lord for quite a few of our creatures, and provides random discard protection vs Liliana when drawn. Has anybody ever tried that out?

[Warden]

It just struck me: Why aren't we running Wilt-Leaf Liege as GSZ target? It has a nice body that is bolt-proof and AD-immune, is a double lord for quite a few of our creatures, and provides random discard protection vs Liliana when drawn. Has anybody ever tried that out?

It requires a specific meta you're looking to beat. If you're worried about -1/-1 sweepers, discard, and Liliana they rock. It's also a nice GSZ target.
I've had success with it, but again, you need to gameplan against a specific meta. Source (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71463)

[jaydprickett]

The following Maverick variant took down 2 different Grand Prix Lille trials -

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

2 Slaughter Games
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage

Thoughts?

[Vicar in a tutu]

Hey Maverick-players, I'm not a Maverick aficionado and I have a question: Isn't Collected Company good in Maverick as a 1-2 of? I'm just curious what you guys feel about the card.

[Tokugawa]

The following Maverick variant took down 2 different Grand Prix Lille trials -

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deathrite Shaman

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket

2 Slaughter Games
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Reclamation Sage

Thoughts?
This is the LOAM deck which just won Prague eternal 2015.

"Maverick variant"? Could it be called as a "Jund variant" or "NIcfit variant" or "Lands variant"?

[Fatal]

Actually it's quite old construction (some changes was made like no sesmic assult or burning wish - more removal - abrupt decay, GSZ and Liliana) called 4-color Aggro Loam. Just loam / cycle lands engine with wastelands, KotRs, Confidants etc..

[8ScrappyMidgetCowboys]

Hey Maverick-players, I'm not a Maverick aficionado and I have a question: Isn't Collected Company good in Maverick as a 1-2 of? I'm just curious what you guys feel about the card.
I've been trying it for a few months and it has tested well.

So, I've been playing Legacy for about a year now. I've gone through a few different decks until settling upon Maverick and I been thoroughly enjoying it. Posted below is the list I'm running right now so feedback would be appreciated.

Dark Maverick:

Land (23):
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dark Depths
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Snow-Covered Forest
2x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Creature (23):
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Instant (8):
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Collected Company
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (4):
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Artifact (2):
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2x Choke
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Thoughtseize
2x Zealous Persecution

[Warden]

Hey Maverick-players, I'm not a Maverick aficionado and I have a question: Isn't Collected Company good in Maverick as a 1-2 of? I'm just curious what you guys feel about the card.

The effect is amazing. The card is not. It costs 4 and is a spell....in a deck that wants to make spells cost more + disable spells with X and/or spells that cost 4 or higher. I find decay, zenith, and equipment to be "tolerable" under Thalia. GSZ not interacting with Teeg is sometimes costly. I can't image banking on intentionally playing this card as part of my gameplan.

If it's a miser card, then we have another discussion. I am yet to play this thing in competition. I think it's doable but would rather run a variety of cards (including 61st card) over this as #60. My most recent exploration has been SDT instead of Library and that was fantastic tbh. We'll see if top lives next week (people speculating it's getting banned). If I wanted a "homerun" card that nets me fuel, I'd go with Library or Confidants over CC.

[Chaam]

So do we want to run Vryn Wingmare?

I was thinking of trying out this list:

Creature (27)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Vryn Wingmare

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Artifact (2)
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Land (23)
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heat
4x Wasteland
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Plains

Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Krosan Grip
1x Sylvan Library
4x Thoughtseize
3x Zealous Persecution

Thoughts? Comments? I haven't played much Maverick (just a few proxied up games). But I am no stranger to Legacy (been playing for years; have played Shardless BUG, RUG Delver, Stoneblade and ANT up to this point. All pretty extensively).

[klaus]

.

Hey Chaam,
I'm quite intrigued by your list and it seems very well balanced - especially for someone who doesn't have years of tweaking Maverick lists under his belt!
I do believe Vryn Wingmare should be tested.

Creatures (31)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
1x Dark Confidant --------------- odd ball. could be two. I wanted some more C/A.
1x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage ------------ upped to two
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
2x Gaddock Teeg --------------- upped to two
2x Stoneforge Mystic ----------- -1
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Vryn Wingmare

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Artifact (2)
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares --------- -1

Land (22) ---------------------- -1. 22 definitely is sufficient with 5 mana dorks (6 counting Arbor) and 4 additional ways to find them
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heat
4x Wasteland
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Plains

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay ----------------- -1 (+2 QPM in the MD)
1x Bojuka Bog
3x Ethersworn Canonist --------- +1
2x Choke ------------------------- +2
1x Sylvan Library
4x Thoughtseize
3x Zealous Persecution

As you can see I tuned your foundation more towards a meta dominated by blue - so basically every meta :)
Have a nice day!

[pointicus]

If you are running new glowrider, you probably need to cut gsz and run vial instead while running the full playset of stfm.

[iamajellydonut]

I agree with pointicus in the sense that you can't jam Wingmare into an existing 75 and expect it to work. You have to make some accommodations. And while you don't need to necessarily have a full playset of SFM, you definitely can't go down in count.

And, as always, Bojuka Bog is a wasted slot in the 75.

[Warden]

I don't like the idea of Vryn Wingmare (lackluster overall IMO) but if I were to include him, I'd follow @pointicus an go with Vial. Zenith suffers too much. Not to mention Vryn is another non-green dude.

[Bosque]

I agree with everyone else, stacking tax effects with Thalia's pony doesn't mesh well with GSZ. I think that route might be more effective in something that has Aether Vial and/or runs the additional mana denial of Rishadan Port (like the green splash of Death and Taxes).

[Chaam]

That makes a lot of sense.

What about replacing the 3 Wingmare with 3 Weathered Wayfarer and replacing the misty with a maze of ith? Also, is 4 Thalia the norm? or should I play 4 Wayfarer and 3 Thalia?

I know this deck used to play Wayfarer and Maze but people have moved away from it. Why was that? The Wayfarer is great early acting as basically a Dark Confidant grabbing wastes, karakas and maze which all can win games on their own. I guess he isn't great later in the game but can sometimes grab Canopy or just put a jitte or sword on it (anotehr reason why I don't plan on running batterskull).

[pointicus]

In a meta where most decks are packing 4 ponder, 4 bs, and a lot of probes and digs, I would definitely be on the 4 thalia plan. That said, I have never really been impressed with Wayfarer, and if you're cutting the wingmares Id rather be gszing again instead of dinking around with Wayfarer.

Plenty of people still play maze, but in my experience I dont like it because maze really was only ever good at giving knight pseudo vigilance, where scyrb ranger does it better, and could be an awful draw as a land that doesn't produce mana, and takes up a spell slot.

[Moroklumpen]

I'm considered ditching Zenith, going back to a vial build and doubling up on the tax collectors with Wingmare.

In such a build, I'm really tempted to try Yisan, the Wandering Bard to replace the Zeniths, Libraries and PWs that are likely to be uncastable under double taxation. Once we untap with him, he's pure card advantage, and we have the card quality to make every activation worthwhile. First mom, DRS or Wayfarer; second Stoneforge or whichever bear is the most relevant; third Wingmare, Mindcensor or Knight. If the curve stops there, you can bounce him with Karakas and vial him right back in, potentially in the same turn. Rinse and repeat.

[TMagpie]

I'm considered ditching Zenith, going back to a vial build and doubling up on the tax collectors with Wingmare.

In such a build, I'm really tempted to try Yisan, the Wandering Bard to replace the Zeniths, Libraries and PWs that are likely to be uncastable under double taxation. Once we untap with him, he's pure card advantage, and we have the card quality to make every activation worthwhile. First mom, DRS or Wayfarer; second Stoneforge or whichever bear is the most relevant; third Wingmare, Mindcensor or Knight. If the curve stops there, you can bounce him with Karakas and vial him right back in, potentially in the same turn. Rinse and repeat.

What's the advantage of this over Death and Taxes running 4 Thalia 3 Wingmare 4 Ports?

[Tiamatria]

Hey there guys, I have a list I'm going to be taking to GP Seattle in November. It is a vial list with a Living Wish package and I'd like some feedback.

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Mother of Runes
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Terravore

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Living Wish
1x Abrupt Decay

4x AEther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library

4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas

SB:

1x Extirpate
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Bojuka Bog

I think I need more Thoughtseize in the board and I think my creature package needs to be a bit more focused. Terravore has been amazing. Nantuko Monastery hasn't had its time to shine yet. I need to know where I want redundancy and where I need options, and I'd like some feedback on where cards should be spread. Any help is much appreciated. I'm thinking of putting Weathered Wayfarers back in, but I don't know how good chain-wastelanding is against a meta filled with Miracles and Omnitell. Batterskull has been in and out and I can't decide if I really like it or not.

[Cambriel]

I've recently become a big fan of just running Duress over Thoughtseize. Having never encountered a creature match where I wanted to bring in targeted discard, it's just simpler to hit the spells. Sometimes that 2 life matters.

[Fl0do]

I would always play thoughtseize. Sometimes it occurs that you want to discard a creature card (mostly Emrakul), the 2 life doesn't matter that much in the matchup where you want discard. Other question: in which matchup do you board the discard (only combo or control too)?

[Cambriel]

I would always play thoughtseize. Sometimes it occurs that you want to discard a creature card (mostly Emrakul), the 2 life doesn't matter that much in the matchup where you want discard. Other question: in which matchup do you board the discard (only combo or control too)?

Largely combo, but that's also why I prefer Duress. Under what scenario would you want to hit an Emrakul with a Thoughtseize? It's just going to reshuffle, and even Griselbrand is dead in hand until they find whatever method of cheating it into play they need. Aim for the Show and Tell, Reanimate, or just a cantrip if it's OmniTell (you can also tag Omniscience here). If those aren't there, Emrakul wasn't a threat anyway. Tag a cantrip and keep them from sculpting a hand that actually does anything. You're not stopping them forever, you're slowing them down long enough to land Thalia, tag a nonbasic with Wasteland, or pass the turn back so your Deathrite Shaman is online. I can count the number of times where I have wanted to board in discard and actually hit a creature on a single hand. Even vs. Food Chain, where you are most likely to have a reasonable creature target, it's rare that you want to snag a Griffin instead of Food Chain itself.

The trade off is real. 2 life is 1 less storm count your opponent needs to Tendrils you out. It's a shock vs. Burn, where you have enough dead cards that siding in Duress isn't necessarily wrong whereas Thoughtseize is pretty terrible. In creature matchup, you don't need the discard at all. Just keep your removal and play the fairest game money can buy in this format.

[Fl0do]

Sometimes you get the chance to mess up their Brainstorm they played in response to your discard spell, when you let them discard a Emrakul they left in hand, the other two cards they wanted to protect are gone too. Though a good player won't give you that opportunity but this scenario happened to me more than once.
Vs. Reanimator it can be relevant if you can snag the creature immediately with Deathrite Shaman or another spell/effect.
Also the possibility to discard a boarded Dark Confidant vs. ANT/TES is good, an unanswered Confidant may run away with the game because they are more likely to draw gas and answers for your hate permanents. In my experience the 2 life doesn't matter that much in this matchup, if ANT/TES get's rollin', it will get you pretty sure, if you have the full 20 life or not.
Another example is 12-Post, Primeval Titan is hard to beat once it enters the battlefield, so better discard it. For Nic Fit goes the same, it's good discarding their bombs before they enter the battlefield and generate value.

Vs. Burn I can see the benefit of having Duress over Thoughtseize, but as long as Burn isn't a big metagame factor I would not play Duress over Thoughtseize. Also Thalia is huge against Burn, so get her into play vs. Burn is always my plan A.

[Megadeus]

Your opponent has 2 show and tells and one creature in hand. Have fun taking a show and tell since you can't take the creature and losing because you couldn't take half of their combo

[Cambriel]

Your opponent has 2 show and tells and one creature in hand. Have fun taking a show and tell since you can't take the creature and losing because you couldn't take half of their combo

IMO, if I turn 1 Thoughtseize and see 2 Show and Tells, I'm not winning that without a Thalia regardless of what I pick. That's just luck of the draw, and I have a hard time evaluating sideboard choices based on "well what if the opponent has two of X?" scenarios. I don't think Thoughtseize is wrong, I just prefer Duress more these days.

The 12-post interaction is a legitimate concern, and one I overlooked because I've never had a match vs that deck. NicFit I'm less concerned because I probably wasn't siding in Thoughtseize anyway.

[Fl0do]

Your opponent has 2 show and tells and one creature in hand. Have fun taking a show and tell since you can't take the creature and losing because you couldn't take half of their combo


IMO, if I turn 1 Thoughtseize and see 2 Show and Tells, I'm not winning that without a Thalia regardless of what I pick. That's just luck of the draw, and I have a hard time evaluating sideboard choices based on "well what if the opponent has two of X?" scenarios.

Megadeus brought another example where Thoughtseize is better. It's a lucky draw from your opponent but it's your fault if you play cards that won't win in this situation over cards that would have mattered, that's not proper deckbuilding.
It's not that Duress is bad card or not a valid choice, Thoughtseize is just overall better and let you win in situations where Duress won't. Why give up that extra win percentage Thoughtseize provides for a mere 2 life, that rarely matters in the format that legacy is?

[Cambriel]

Maybe it's just me being a numbers nerd, but I'm not at all confident that the added win % between say, storm or burn match ups where the 2 life might matter, and SnT match ups where they draw 2 SnT and you want to tag Emrakul with a Thoughtseize is mathematically in favor of Thoughtseize over Duress. Without evidence, all either of us have are anecdotes.

[Fl0do]

Duress is a legitimate choice for sure, especially in a metagame with a bunch of Burn (other SB-Cards are still better there). But I had some situations where it mattered to have Thoughtseize ready instead of Duress. Nevermind ;)

The better discussion for me is in which matchup should we bring in Thoughtseize/Discard? I'm pretty unsure if I should bring in the Thoughtseize in the control matchups (Miracles for example) or only in Combo Matchups.

Before GP Lille, I dropped the Discard from my SB entirely and ran more hate permanents (more Choke, Canonist, 3Sphere). I was fine with that for a while but after GP Lille I'm not sure about that plan anymore, so I decided to run Discard in the SB again.

For reference, my current Sideboard (I'm very fine with my MD atm, though it has 61 cards):

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge/Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction (maybe 1/1 split with Nihil Spellbomb)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize

[Megadeus]

I'd personally only bring in point discard against combo decks, and maybe elves. Against miracles it isn't necessarily bad, especially turn 1 on the play to take a top, but it loses a lot of value once your opponent finds a top

[Cambriel]

Yeah, vs. Miracles I'd much rather have an extra threat. I usually board into things like extra Oozes and Teegs just to increase creature density. Anything that can pick up a sword and swing.

[Warden]

I think you're approaching the situation wrong. I've always viewed my SB as "what 2 or 3 archetypes am I looking to beat?" because trying to cater to 4+ archetypes means you'll struggle.
Be good at 2 or 3 decks rather than marginal against the field.

Do you want to handle combo? The overall archetype of "combo" or a specific deck? How many cards do you feel comfortable bringing in (1-3 cards or more? How much is enough?)?
What options exist? Which of those options give you solid % games 2 and/or 3? Start broad and progress into specifics.

Example: If you want to handle combo...are we talking storm? omni? reanimator? painter? oops all spells? food chain? high tide/solidarity? Some cards are applicable across the entire umbrella of combo decks.
Let's say we narrowed the "combo hate" down to storm, omni, and reanimator. Should we pack discard a la TS/Duress? Should we pack Surgical/RIP (vs reanimator RIP is great but that card is more or less a waste of space against the 2 other aforementioned decks). You may have personal experience boarding in particular cards. Decide on how many SB slots are enough. Know how much crap you want to board out.

Just looking at the previous comments here, if you're worried about burn AND storm then it would make sense to choose duress and/or inquisition instead of TS. If you're worried about Storm and Omni then you probably want to have TS instead. Narrow down what matchups you need help with, make a SB, narrow that shit down, articulate your situation and logic.

@Bierbaron: That SB is interesting. I can't stress the importance of not needing to satisfy all weaknesses. Magic is ultimately rocks-paper-scissors. You can only tune a SB to beat so much. Pray for the remaining matchups you didn't prepare your 75 or 76 list for. I don't understand the Trinisphere

[Fl0do]

@Bierbaron: That SB is interesting. I can't stress the importance of not needing to satisfy all weaknesses. Magic is ultimately rocks-paper-scissors. You can only tune a SB to beat so much. Pray for the remaining matchups you didn't prepare your 75 or 76 list for. I don't understand the Trinisphere

My sideboard is mostly geared towards combo, a part of it adresses control/midrange strategies and the sweepers happen to be good vs. a variety of decks (D&T, Elves, TNN, Tokens, ...). I round it out with Catch-All cards like Council's Judgement and Pithing Needle.

Edit: The Trinisphere here is especially for the Omni-Tell, put it in the S&T and you won't be hindered at answering the omniscience. Another application is the Storm-Matchup, though 3 CC is slow, but it seems to me that the storm decks are taking more time to assemble the combo turn, which gives you the window to slam 3-Sphere every now and then. Sometimes I board it vs. Delver too, but that depends on my mood ^^
For me the 3-Sphere is a powerful card for 1 matchup and a supplement SB-card for other matchups too. So far I'm fine with it, maybe it changes with the next tournament ;)

Maybe it's important to know, that my maindeck is geared to put up more of a fight vs. Miracle and Delver decks, because I run the following in the maindeck (alongside the usual suspects):

2 Gaddock Teeg (which is just so good vs. a lot of matchups!)
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte, 1 SoFaI, 1 SoLaS (which won me so many games, I wonder why it doesn't get played more often!)
full 4 of Thalia, Deathrite, Mother and Knight

another unconventional choice may be the singleton Birds of Paradise I chose to run as the fifth mana dork and the absence of Scryb Ranger.

Maybe it's better to just post my list ;)

4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

[Cambriel]

I actually like the Bird here given that you're running 3 equipment and it flies. Normally I'm a big fan of 1 Hierarch so you can GSZ for exalted to mess with combat math, but flying with a sword is no joke.

[Fl0do]

I actually like the Bird here given that you're running 3 equipment and it flies. Normally I'm a big fan of 1 Hierarch so you can GSZ for exalted to mess with combat math, but flying with a sword is no joke.

That's the reason why I play the bird, it also taps for black mana (without needing the graveyard), which is important sometimes. It paid off so far :)

[TMagpie]

That's the reason why I play the bird, it also taps for black mana (without needing the graveyard), which is important sometimes. It paid off so far :)

I find there's very little reason to ever run 1 Heirarch over 1 BoP in a 4 Deathrite list.

[Warden]

I find there's very little reason to ever run 1 Heirarch over 1 BoP in a 4 Deathrite list.

Not to be snarky, but here's 2 big reasons I run some amount of Hierarch alongside DRS (over Birds):
1. Exalted....because even 1 dude with it makes differences. Situations where you have 3 exalted folk (hierarchs and QPM) turn dorks into sizable threats.
2. Occasional times where hierarch is the lone attacker (exalted being useful again), she will deal damage whereas birds will not. This may seem like a corner case, but sometimes the mana dork is the only creature I have that sticks on the table (see: countermagic, removal, no additional threats). Hierarch can chip away at the opponent and/or damage with Jitte. Birds is perpetually a 0/1 flyer. I would argue swords of X&Y make either mana dork suddenly fantastic.

The only time I could see myself cut hierarch from Maverick would be to run some greedy 4C list. Birds being dork #5 to give you consistent access to red or black > hierarch.

[lavafrogg]

Anyone playing punishing maverick right now? I am thinking about unsleeving RG Lands to give it another shot.

[Seraphix]

Anyone playing punishing maverick right now? I am thinking about unsleeving RG Lands to give it another shot.

I've been playing a pretty retro Naya list a bunch recently.

The things I miss from GWb are mana dorks with >1 toughness and Zealous Persecution. Punishing Fire is my jam though and Blasts are super good as well.

I know there is also a 4-color version, but I'm not a huge fan from what (little) of it I've played.

[Strassbaw]

I have been super busy with life and couldn't post about tournaments, but This is my 4c Pun Mav list:

--Thalia punishing maverick--

24 Creatures:

Mother of runes 4
Knight of the reliquary 4
Deathrite shaman 3
Thalia, Guardian of Thrabein 3
Aven mindcensor 2
Gadock teeg 2
Quasali pridemage 2
Scavenging ooze 1
Noble hiarch 1
Birds of paradise 1
Dryad arbor 1

13 Non-Creature spells:

Green Sun's Zenith 4
Swords to plowshares 4
Punishing fire 3
Umezawa's jitte 2

Lands 23

Forest 1
Plateau 1
Savanna 2
Taiga 2
Bayou 1
Grove of the burnwillows 3
Horizon canopy 1
Wasteland 3
Cavern of souls 1
Karakas 1
Wooded foothills 3
Windswept 4

Non-Etutor SB:

Pyroblast 3
Etherswon canonist 2
Zealous persecution 2
Fiery justice 1
Reclamation sage 1
Bajuka bog 1
Surgical extraction 1
Slaughter games 2
Gadock teeg 2


Been doing well with it recently. The slaughter games, ZP, and 4 teegs have been pretty sweet actually. Miracles is the main reason I'm at 4 teegs. Rather than playing other cards that sorta beat the deck, I have decided to go and play as many copies of the card that makes me win the MU as I can. Fiery justice is newer in my list, but I think it could be a killer when used in the right spot.

[Timbeef]

Hey Mavericks.

Question for you folks. I've been playing this deck a bit over the past year. I've been playing with the DD + TS package, and I've really been enjoying the deck. I've also been back and forth with a Bog somewhere in the 75, as well as a crop rotation. The question I would like to pose, and if this is the wrong thread let me know, but would it be a valid strategy to play a sort of Maverick style deck with a lands sub theme? I really enjoy the way the deck plays for the most part, would it be possible to play like a singleton Life from the Loam maindeck to leverage wasteland, and running, say, a tranquil thicket in the board over Sylvan Library? Or is this just not the correct deck for this?

[Moroklumpen]

I used to run Loam in Punishing Maverick, since that allows us to dredge into just about everything we need, especially if we can land Sword of Light and Shadow. I never ran cycling lands, but I never leave home without Horizon Canopy no matter what build I use. Recently, I've built The Loam deck from Lille, which is actually more of a Loam/Maverick hybrid. It's likely to replace Maverick as my go-to legacy deck for the foreseeable future; it just feels so wonderfully well-tuned.

[Timbeef]

Appreciate the input. Yeah, I was eyeing that deck as well, I just dislike having fewer DRS, it's become a favorite of mine. Also, I'm not as much a fan of the black spells, but I do like the lands angle that it takes.

Cheers.

[Strassbaw]

Dear all Maverick players,

Last night I have streamed some games against a Miracle list with a fair amount of creatures.

Here is the link to the stream: http://www.twitch.tv/phlogisten/v/9482152 (Audio loops at the beginning so skip ahead to legacy)

We did some sealed cube at the start of the night, so skip ahead and start watching at an 1:35:00 to hear me talk briefly about the Legacy matches start at about 1:39:00.

Here is the list I played that day:

lost the 2 Mindcensors, added 4th Pun and a Loam (good idea on loam Moroklumpen. I took it out when I added Thalia, but i think its needed)


22 creatures

Mother of runes 4
Knight of the reliquary 4
Deathrite shaman 3
Thalia, Guardian of Thrabein 3
Gadock teeg 2
Quasali pridemage 2
Scavenging ooze 1
Noble Hierarch 1
Birds of paradise 1
Dryad arbor 1

15 Non-Creature spells:

Green Sun's Zenith 4
Swords to plowshares 4
Punishing fire 4
Umezawa's jitte 2
Life from the Loam 1

Lands 23

Forest 1
Plateau 1
Savanna 2
Taiga 2
Bayou 1
Grove of the burnwillows 3
Horizon canopy 1
Wasteland 3
Cavern of souls 1
Karakas 1
Wooded foothills 3
Windswept 4

Non-Etutor SB:

Pyroblast 3
Etherswon canonist 2
Zealous persecution 2
Fiery justice 1
Reclamation sage 1
Bajuka bog 1
Surgical extraction 1
Slaughter games 2
Gadock teeg 2


I lost a game or 2 more than I won, but for an inherently bad match up, the deck is treating me well, especially in sideboard matches. I will be taking out the two Slaughter Games (even when it acted like a duress too), as I did not love them in the match up (miracles can kill you too many ways), and I will be trying out 2 copies of choke to replace both Slaughter games in the side board. Comments and questions appreciated. I hope the audio is good enough for a listen. Thanks for reading.

Ps. Keep playing fair!

[Fl0do]

Isn't Thalia an issue with Punishing Fire? The non-synergy is the main reason I stopped playing Punishing Fire in favor of a built with 4 Wasteland + 4 Thalias.

Also with Loam I'm always considering Sylvan Safekeeper as a 1-of. I would also consider a pair of Abrupt Decays, as a catch-all answer (maybe a 3/3/2 split with PF and StP).

I like your sideboard too, except for the Teegs. They are great, but I think playing the full four in the 75 is overkill.

Unfortunately I have no time to watch your games to give some comments, but Miracles is very beatable with Maverick. I think the matchup isn't that bad as everyone says. It's not a cakewalk, but playing tight and know your lines of play is key.
I tested against it for GP Lille quite a bit (with Dark Maverick) and had quite decent results with the list I posted above.

[Strassbaw]

Isn't Thalia an issue with Punishing Fire? The non-synergy is the main reason I stopped playing Punishing Fire in favor of a built with 4 Wasteland + 4 Thalias.

Also with Loam I'm always considering Sylvan Safekeeper as a 1-of. I would also consider a pair of Abrupt Decays, as a catch-all answer (maybe a 3/3/2 split with PF and StP).

I like your sideboard too, except for the Teegs. They are great, but I think playing the full four in the 75 is overkill.

Unfortunately I have no time to watch your games to give some comments, but Miracles is very beatable with Maverick. I think the matchup isn't that bad as everyone says. It's not a cakewalk, but playing tight and know your lines of play is key.
I tested against it for GP Lille quite a bit (with Dark Maverick) and had quite decent results with the list I posted above.

Thanks for checking out the list. I'm glad you like most of the sideboard. Things on the 75 are changing nearly weekly for me. The videos aren't the most entertaining perhaps , but there isn't much content in this universe that shows Miracles Vs Mav that I know about. Maybe some of my plays (good and bad) will be insightful to see. On a local level, I have been doing well, but I know that I could make more optimal plays at times and maybe change a few cards to better suit the current meta.

Thalia and Pun Fire do not work great together, but I don't think anyone is gonna beat Omnitell without Thalia playing Maverick game 1 especially. Mindcensor doesn't do enough, so I had to make the switch. 4 teegs has been pretty good so far. It's the best card in a lot of matchups, and letting the opponent kill teeg and landing another teeg is mainly how I win against Micracle decks. Safekeeper is cool, but the idea of losing lands is brutal, so I would sooner play more copies of haters, rather than play a 5th weird Mother of Runes. The main thing I am learning in mtg is that most any good card can be used in the right time. In other words, if Pyroblast, Pun fire and Thalia are all effective cards in your deck , why not play all 3?

[Warden]

Thanks for checking out the list. I'm glad you like most of the sideboard. Things on the 75 are changing nearly weekly for me. The videos aren't the most entertaining perhaps , but there isn't much content in this universe that shows Miracles Vs Mav that I know about. Maybe some of my plays (good and bad) will be insightful to see. On a local level, I have been doing well, but I know that I could make more optimal plays at times and maybe change a few cards to better suit the current meta.

Thalia and Pun Fire do not work great together, but I don't think anyone is gonna beat Omnitell without Thalia playing Maverick game 1 especially. Mindcensor doesn't do enough, so I had to make the switch. 4 teegs has been pretty good so far. It's the best card in a lot of matchups, and letting the opponent kill teeg and landing another teeg is mainly how I win against Micracle decks. Safekeeper is cool, but the idea of losing lands is brutal, so I would sooner play more copies of haters, rather than play a 5th weird Mother of Runes. The main thing I am learning in mtg is that most any good card can be used in the right time. In other words, if Pyroblast, Pun fire and Thalia are all effective cards in your deck , why not play all 3?

No offense, but if you're worried about Omnitell so much, just go standard Maverick (GWx) with Canonists in the main. Also, I agree with @ Fl0do's points. Especially 4 teegs. That's beyond overkill.
Playing 4C punishing maverick with pfires engine + thalia in the main looks like a pile. Since you're already in the spirit of aggro loam, just play aggro loam instead.

[Strassbaw]

No offense, but if you're worried about Omnitell so much, just go standard Maverick (GWx) with Canonists in the main. Also, I agree with @ Fl0do's points. Especially 4 teegs. That's beyond overkill.
Playing 4C punishing maverick with pfires engine + thalia in the main looks like a pile. Since you're already in the spirit of aggro loam, just play aggro loam instead.

Perhaps I would consider changing decks, what stops me is that I've been winning a lot. This list is fine. Play it before you hate on it.

4 teegs could be overkill, but playing red is not a non-viable option. Trying to talk me out of it is not worth anyone's time.

[Fl0do]

I really would try out the Ethersworn Canonists instead of Thalia. Canonist matches better with Punishing Fire, hates on Omnitell and ANT and helps for some extent against Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor.

Against Omnitell I can also recommend playing some Krosan Grips, which have applications in a lots of other matchups too.

[PowrDragn]

Just starting playing Legacy a bit more. Figured it wouldn't hurt me to have a deck around. I've got everything for this but a Karakas and that's easily remedied. I'm pretty sure my list is pretty standard, but curious on if anything looks way out of the ordinary with my adjustments...


Lands (23)
4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Forest

Creatures (25)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mndsensor
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger


Instants and Sorceries (9)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice



Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog (possibly Rest In Peace)
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Choke
1 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
2 Containment Priest
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution



Scryb Ranger has been fun for simple trickery at times, but I'm not completely sure how relevant it is. Titania is REALLY good if it even sticks for a turn. Otherwise, it's a pretty fun deck to play.

[Fl0do]

List looks fairly standard, but on a closer look there are some things I think you have to change.

Most important:
- Fetchland configuration: If you're playing BGW always play 4 Windswept Heath and X Verdant Catacombs before playing any other fetchland. You always want to be able to fetch Dryad Arbor with every Fetchland you play.
- You play only 3 Deathrite Shamans and 3 Green Sun's Zenith. So you don't play the maximum number of turn 1 mana-accelerators while upping the curve with things like Titania and Aven Mindcensor. I recommend playing at least 4 manadorks (I'm playing 5 atm) and I think it is a mistake cutting on Green Sun's Zenith, as it is clearly the engine of this deck, acting as a mana dork, disruption piece and a threat while always helping to curve out.

Some thoughts on:
Karakas vs. Maze of Ith - don't forget that Maze of Ith won't tap for mana, Maze of Ith should always take a spell slot. Also Karakas provides tricks with your legends and takes care of problematic legends on the other side, so Karakas will always be better than Maze.
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - if you play the full 4 wastelands I would also play the full 4 Thalia's, the combination is just good in a spell based format like Legacy.
Aven Mindcensor, Titania - While Mindcensor is still a valid hatebear (though costing 3 hurts a lot), I think Titania is win more. Just upping the GSZs up to 4 might do the trick, in my opinion Equipment or a KotR are closing the game in a similar fast fashion than Titania, while providing more utility.

I personally prefer to play a 3rd Equipment, namely Sword of Light and Shadow and I just recommend it, it has been good for me for a whlie now :)

[PowrDragn]

The Maze of Ith this was an old note from the notepad I copied over. Karakas is definitely the card for that slot.

As for the extra mana dorks, I've personally had ZERO mana issues. If anything, it feels like I often have too much. That's sort of what lead to some of my choices.

I agree that it feels like the deck wants a 4th Thalia. I just had a lot of times where I drew an extra one and would rather it be something else. But who knows? Maybe it should go back in over the Aven Mindcensor.

I could see this list being

-2 Aven Mindsensor
+1 Thalia
+1 Green Sun's Zenith


I actually appreciate the Titania a lot. It's given me something worthwhile to search for with a late GSZ that can pretty much end the game, or at least lead to the endgame in a turn or two. Though, I'm not against the idea of a 3rd equipment. It's less exciting if I'm playing even more Thalia, but it's still good. Definitely something I've considered as well.

Thanks for the input.

[sdematt]

I feel like when I played Mav, i always wanted 5 manadorks and 5 Mother of Runes. So, I did.

-Matt

[PowrDragn]

I could also see adding two Birds of Paradise in place of the last Aven Mindsensor and the Scryb Ranger.

[PowrDragn]

Man, I like this deck a lot. Though, I have to say that I played a bit against Elves today and it was tough. Very grindy and hard to win. Otherwise, I really enjoy it :)

[Fl0do]

Went to a local tournament (26 players, 5 rounds and Top 8 Playoff) made 4th place, getting around 60€ in card prices.

My list:

//Länder
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
//Kreaturen
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
//Andere
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Council's Judgement
3 Thoughtseize

Round 1 vs. Merfolk

Good matchup, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary and Equipments go all the way. Win 2 - 0

1 - 0 - 0

Round 2 vs. Grixis Delver

In the first game he is greedy and has only a Deathrite Shaman and an Underground Sea as mana sources. Wasteland and my own Deathrite Shaman take care of that. In the second game I mull to 6 and decide to keep a mediocre hand (Thalia, 2 Fetchland, 3 other lands). I keep because Thalia is very good in this matchup and with 5 lands in hand my chances to draw actual gas are higher while not succumbing to opposing wastelands. So I draw into Mother of Runes but he plays Dread of Night before I get a chance to stick Thalia and Delver is leeching my lifepoints away. Stoneforge Mystic into Sword of Fire and Ice brings me back into the game vs. Deathrite Shaman and Delver and I stabilize one 1 life. He has some turns to find Bolt, but eventually my own Deathrite Shaman seals the deal. Exciting game! Win 2 - 0

2 - 0 - 0

Round 3 vs. Sultai Midrange

In the first game I have all I can ask for and my opponent is always on the backfoot. In the second game I eventually got overwhelmed by Baleful Strixes, I couldn't attack profitably while a pair of Deathrite Shamans nibbed away my life total. In the third game I got overwhelmed by lots of removal from his sideboard. Lose 1 - 2

2 - 1 - 0

Round 4 vs. Merfolk

The pairing gods are kind to me and I get another fish meal. First game he keeps a greedy hand with only Mutavault and Aether Vial and no other land, I have the Abrupt Decay and Wasteland to punish that. When he draws into lands I eventually assembled an active Mother, Knight and Jitte. In the third game I have triple Mother of Runes and triple Swords to Plowshares, but it takes some time till I draw into a backbreaking Stoneforge Mystic. He manages to get some Merfolk (including TNN and two Lords) onto the board, but I had everything under control. A Divert delays the inevitable for one turn. Win 2 - 0

3 - 1 - 0

Round 5 vs. Monored Painter

I get paired up (he has 3 wins and 1 draw) and we debate if we should draw for Top 8. We decide to play it out. I know what he is playing, so I keep hands with basics in both games. In the first game an early Blood Moon can't stop from developing my board and I have all the answers I need. In the second game he keeps a risky hand and my draw of four wastelands is good enough to rip apart his manabase and board. Win 2 - 0

I enter Top 8 with the second place after swiss standings.

Top 8 Round 1 vs. Reanimator

I don't know what he is playing, but I keep a strong hand with Wasteland, Karakas, GSZ and Mother of Runes I think. An early Griselbrand takes me by surprise, but Karakas takes care of that and Deathrite Shaman (via GSZ) seals the deal. Game 2 I have Swords to Plowshares for his Griselbrand, the second one is too much. In the third game I have an early Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman which slows him down. I have not that much pressure but Thalia constricts his mana a little bit, though he has 5 lands. He eventually found Pithing Needle, but I have the Abrupt Decay, so I can win. Win 2 - 0

5 - 1 - 0

Top 8 Round 2 vs. Reanimator

This time know he is playing a reanimator deck which relies on a fast Griselbrand. Unfortunately he is both times faster than me. Game 2 was interesting, he mulls to 5 and I keep a hand with Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman. I decide to go with Thoughtseize and see Brainstorm, Faithless Looting, Swamp, Bloodstained Mire and Badlands. I pick the Brainstorm, in his turn he loots into Reanimate and Griselbrand :( What would have been your play? Lose 0 - 2

5 - 2 - 0

Game for 3rd place vs. Burn

Game 1 he was too fast, in the second game I have Thalia, Ooze and Mother which are enough. In the second game I have a slow start and eventually lose against Sulfuric Vortex. Lose 1 - 2

5 - 3 - 0

Anyway, tournament was great, nice people and many thanks for TOs. My deck didn't disappoint me, the list runs very smooth but I think I have jam some games vs. Sultai Midrange (BG-Decks in general) and Reanimator, as I didn't expected them and got punished for that.

Looking forward to your comments!

[bakofried]

Played Maverick at a 68 man GPT at Knightware. Went 4-3. Beat: Academy Rector, Dredge, Esper Stoneblade, Infect. Lost to: Esper Stoneblade, Mentor Miracles, Merfolk. Think my list wasn't tuned well, and I've been pretty out of touch with the meta.

[bakofried]

Okay, so I've retooled my deck. I've taken some cues from Fl0do's list above. Could I get any comments/tips? I step away from the format for a little while and come back to a host of scary shit. Here's the MD, SB, and boarding plans, and any tips are welcome. Canonist and Containment Priest are relatively interchangeable here, and preferences are invited.
Maindeck: 61
//
Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 24
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells: 15
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
//
Sideboard: 15
4 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
//
Total: 76
//

Here are my boarding plans. They could be shitty, but that's what wine and regret will do for you.

Miracles without Monastery Mentor:
I have to be honest, most of my practice against this deck comes from Lossett's version, as that's what one of my playtest partners has. There's really only 3 of us in Bakersfield, so what are you gonna do.
Out:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
0-4 Knight of the Reliquary
In:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
0-4 Thoughtseize
I'm fairly unimpressed by Knight in this match up, but I may be the outlier. And I'm always torn by whether or not to board in Seize, as it lets me interact with their hand, but is admittedly shitty in a game of attrition. Thoughts?

Miracles with Monastery Mentor:
I've only played against this once, and it was a beating. As such, all comments are welcome.
Out:
1 Wasteland
4 Knight of the Reliquary
In:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg

Elves:
Out:
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
In:
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Omnitell:
Out:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Abrupt Decay
In:
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg

Grixis:
Out:
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
In:
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution

Death and Taxes:
Out:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
In:
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution
0-2 Pithing Needle
0-2 Krosan Grip
Don't know about Grip or Needle, and if I want both, what other spots to take out. Should I just expect Rest in Peace, and board out some Knights and Deathrites, or no?

Anyway, that's all I got. With regards to the Knightware tournament, I was in contention for top 8 until the last round, and I don't feel too bad since one of my losses was to this guy: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/welcome. Everyone there kicked ass and was gracious in victory and defeat. Dark Depths/Stage was shitty all day. I was happy every time I drew Mystic (I ran 2), and there were times I wished for another. I ran 2 Teeg/2 Pridemage/2 Ooze and felt that they lacked a lot of punch, so those numbers are going down. I may still want to swap Ooze and Qasali, because of Decay overlap. I really wanted Decay all day and ran 0 in the 76. I also ran Choke and Cataclysm, but saw neither all day. Cut them regardless, as they would not have aided me in the matches I thought I'd want them in. That's about it.

[Fl0do]

I feel honored for taking my list as a reference :)

I agree on DD/Stage-Combo, it's slow, unstable and costs important slots which I don't want to fill with cards that will increase bad opening hands.

I'm also playing without Cataclysm/Choke/Armageddon because the only deck that justifies such hosers at the moment is Miracles and there are better cards for this matchups with broader applications (Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, Gaddock Teeg).

I also tried 3 Stoneforge Mystic, but I felt more comfortable with 2, personal taste I guess.

Scavenging Ooze is fine as 1-of, it rarely matters vs. Dig through Time and Deathrite Shaman does good work against the actual graveyard shenanigans. Better play some Surgical Extractions or Nihil Spellbombs in the SB.

I see you play a fetchland and a forest instead of Horizon Canopy and a Cavern of Souls, compared to my list. Do you have a lot's of Burn and fast Delver-Decks in your metagame?

I'm not sure if it's right to board out all Knights vs. Miracles, especially Mentor Miracles. At least I always want to be able to search for a Knight, it's just good to have the option for a big threat when needed.

Vs. Mentor Miracles I'm always looking to stick an Equipment. As long as you're not under pressure from a Monastery Mentor play the usual patient game vs. Miracles. As soon they have a Mentor I get more aggressive to force them into needing a quick answer or a Terminus which is also good for you. Value the Sword of Light and Shadow high against both Miracles-Versions, I personally search for SoLaS before I search for SoFaI. Simply because Protection from White will protect my Threat (at best a Gaddock Teeg) from Spot Removal and Angels/Mentors and so you get a serious clock going while getting back your countered creatures (while a draw from SoFaI may brick sometimes) and the life matters if you're under pressure from a non-Jace clock (resulting in 1 to 3 more turns to find something relevant).
Always keep a green fetchland open, play Equipment and EOT fetch on Dryad Arbor to equip and attack in your turn is just soo good (not only vs. Miracles).

Vs. Elves I would also board in some Pithing Needles, more ways to turn off Wirewood Symbiote is important to get Jitte online.

Vs. Death & Taxes Pithing Needle is good to handle the Aether Vial and has applications against some other cards (Rishadan Port, Mangara, ...) too. I would not board out Knights because you fear Rest in Peace. Don't forget that Knight gets you Gaea's Cradle, which is busted in this matchup (it's often enough if you can make the Stonefore->Umezawa's Jitte, play Jitte and equip, then attack move).
All in all it's not a matchup I'm worried about, you have better removal, bigger creatures and still a good manabase.

[ljackstar]

So I just finished my first legacy deck, Elves!, and for my second one I was looking at Maverick because it seemed to share some cards. Unfortunately, it seems the lists are pretty variable and meta tuned so I'm not exactly sure where to start. While I have not been able to play much legacy recently, I am told that of the 8 decks that show up each week, about 3 are reanimator, and 2 are elves (The other 2 people change each week), with another reanimator player building his deck right now. What sort of direction is best for this type of meta game?

[sdematt]

Play multiple Oozes and Surgicals in the board. For Elves, run Zealous Persecution.

-Matt

[bakofried]

4 Deathrite Shaman, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Bojuka Bog maindeck. I assume you have Karakas, it's necessary. If you're feeling saucy you can try a singleton Anafenza, the Foremost MD as well. You'll want 2 Containment Priest, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Toxic Deluge and 2 Zealous Persecution in the sideboard. These numbers can be shifted around, but it's what I'd like to have on hand. In a larger event Bog and Anafenza likely wouldn't make the cut.

[ljackstar]

Alright thanks for the help. While I don't have the karakas right now, I certainly won't be playing any events with this until it's almost entirely complete. The only other question I have is would this deck be playable with shocklands. I've been making them work with Elves just because of how fast it is, however I know in daze decks it makes them almost unplayable. Would I be able to play without them, or should I just sideline the deck until I get them?

[bakofried]

With all the fetching and knight activations, shocks seem like a pretty bad idea. Personally, I'd sideline it. Luckily, you can get away with 2 Savannah, 1 Bayou, and 1 Scrubland.

[ljackstar]

With all the fetching and knight activations, shocks seem like a pretty bad idea. Personally, I'd sideline it. Luckily, you can get away with 2 Savannah, 1 Bayou, and 1 Scrubland.

Ok, that's understandable. Normally I won't settle for anything less than ideal, but with the shitty canadian dollar, and the problem that every person with duals wants to be paid in USD, I've been trying to cut some corners.

[Fl0do]

Ok, that's understandable. Normally I won't settle for anything less than ideal, but with the shitty canadian dollar, and the problem that every person with duals wants to be paid in USD, I've been trying to cut some corners.

Without access to duals I would play straight GW. Though Red and Black add strong cards to the Maverick deck, I think GW is still a viable option.

[oSeabass]

Without access to duals I would play straight GW. Though Red and Black add strong cards to the Maverick deck, I think GW is still a viable option.

What would a new age GW list look like? I myself prefer the clean, original GW list with a nice happy Enlightened Tutor sideboard and some nice healthy toolbox lands. Scryb Ranger, Aven Mindcensors, etc.

I am a little out of touch with the meta, if Miracles is still big (the deck that killed Maverick IMHO) then it might be tough. But if the format is just Delver and Stoneblade decks I think a toolbox deck with a good pilot could fair well.

[bakofried]

Miracles is still plenty big.

Besides that, the format has evolved in response to other cards that make the black splash necessary. Unless you are running Decays main, the deck has a pretty rock solid manabase, and even if you are it's fine. Splashing black gives you DRS (awesome, doesn't die to -1/-1 effects popular in the format). It also lets you play Toxic Deluge, Zealous Persecution, and Thoughtseize in the sideboard. In my opinion, these are all necessary in a room with Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, and the host of X/1's in the format right now. Red for Punishing Fire is alright, but clashes with Thalia significantly, and Thalia gives you a significant edge in your bad match ups, whereas Fire gives you an edge in your even/good match ups. Not to mention the fact that the red splash hurts your mana quite a bit, whereas the black splash integrates it much more cleanly.

How do people feel about Monastery Mentor in Miracles? On one hand, it makes our Teegs significantly worse, as they often cut Jace and Entreat. However, it turns our Swords on, and their mana is easier to punish. I played against it once, it crushed me, but that list was an awkward halfway point between Mentor versions and Entreat versions (and IMO worse against the meta at large).

[Fl0do]

How do people feel about Monastery Mentor in Miracles? On one hand, it makes our Teegs significantly worse, as they often cut Jace and Entreat. However, it turns our Swords on, and their mana is easier to punish. I played against it once, it crushed me, but that list was an awkward halfway point between Mentor versions and Entreat versions (and IMO worse against the meta at large).



Vs. Mentor Miracles I'm always looking to stick an Equipment. As long as you're not under pressure from a Monastery Mentor play the usual patient game vs. Miracles. As soon they have a Mentor I get more aggressive to force them into needing a quick answer or a Terminus which is also good for you. Value the Sword of Light and Shadow high against both Miracles-Versions, I personally search for SoLaS before I search for SoFaI. Simply because Protection from White will protect my Threat (at best a Gaddock Teeg) from Spot Removal and Angels/Mentors and so you get a serious clock going while getting back your countered creatures (while a draw from SoFaI may brick sometimes) and the life matters if you're under pressure from a non-Jace clock (resulting in 1 to 3 more turns to find something relevant).
Always keep a green fetchland open, play Equipment and EOT fetch on Dryad Arbor to equip and attack in your turn is just soo good (not only vs. Miracles).


That's my plan, works for me so far.

@Straight G/W Maverick: I would go heavy on Equipment (3 Stoneforge, 3 Swords) because you lack the black sweepers against tokens and play a couple of Council's Judgement, also the manabase can support at least 2 Cavern of Souls. I don't recommend Enlightened Tutor in the board, the card disadvantage is real and not worth the potential benefits. Aven Mindcensor's 3CC is really an issue, play more Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Canonists before you play Mindcensors. Don't play too much cute toolbox things, keep it as straight as possible especially when you're just starting to play Maverick. Once you have more experience with the deck, you will know which toolbox cards you want (or not).

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Abrupt Decay

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

Reasoning being I really want to run my extra Beta Birds that I got (otherwise, it should obviously by DRS). Maybe 2 SFM is too low nowadays, but whatever. We'll see.

[BearsandSquires]

I really like that list matt

[sdematt]

Tell me why you like it. I know why I like it, but you tell me ;)

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Are you boarding the surgicals vs omni matt. Im assuming cutting moms dad and the plows whats the tenth card coming out scryb ranger? Or are you boarding the full twelve relevant cards?

Edit. Personally I think dryad militant is incredibly well positioned in the current meta and wouldnt mind seeing one over a surgical.

[Warden]

@sdematt you gave up on Courser!? Shame on you...

I'd personally cut 1 Thalia since you've got a chunk of "spells", but that's just me. I also don't respect safekeeper enough to crack the 75

[bakofried]

sdematt - I would comment on your list if I had a better idea of your sideboard plans. As is, it is leaning the direction that I like with Maverick w/ regards to games against Miracles. I rarely win games that go long, and as such don't quite care about midgame bombs. The games I win are those where hatebears+protection+wasteland keep them off balance long enough for the kill. I do not know how to feel about your manabase, however. Maybe swap a Savannah with a fetch, as I don't have a sexy beta birds to cast.

Although I don't think you play it for this matchup, I liked Surgical against Miracles (when I played it). Silly I know, but cutting off a Swords/Terminus after the first made my life so much easier. Blame Mr. Knab for suggesting it in Elves on the podcast.

[Fl0do]

@sdmatt: List looks fine to me, not sure about the Scryb Ranger, I cutted it long ago, but I think this is personal preference. I think Sylvan Safekeeper is not that necessary in Abzan Maverick because you play more redundant threats. It's better in the threat light Punishing Maverick lists. It faired me pretty well playing a second Gaddock Teeg in the main, which is a threat for Miracles and Combo and frees up some SB-Space.

Another card I can recommend is Sword of Light and Shadow and I urge you to give it a try. Maybe a Bad-Beats story from GP Lille may convince you:
It's round 5 and I'm 2-2 and need to win to stay in contention (though I'm not in competitive mood after giving away two matches in a row due to inexperience with the opposing decks in round 1 and 2). My opponent sits down and we begin to play and I know after the first turns, that my opponent is on Miracles. My first plays involve a Qasali Pridemage and a Stoneforge Mystic which fetches me up a Sword of Light and Shadow. I thought twice about it and considered searching for Sword of Fire and Ice first, but Sword of Light and Shadow gives me an early threat which demands Terminus and plays well with the Pridemage and countered creatures, in other words I urge the opponent to find something whereas I can just sit back. So he is in need for an answer, in the meantime my draws are not that good, giving me lands and 3 Swords to Plowshares which I don't really want to see. While he has all the filtering with Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top and Dig through time I manage to get a nice board involving Dryad Arbor, Qasali Pridemage, Cavern of Souls on Cat and Fetchlands. I get him into a lock: EOT sac Pridemage targetting SDT, in my turn I attack with the Arbor equipped with SoLaS and get back the Pridemage, which I can play safe from counters thanks to Cavern of Souls. An opposing Counterbalance doesn't matter at all but serves as an out to an opposing Swords to Plowshares. He eventually sticks a Jace and Snapcaster Mage protecting it, but I use my removal aggressively and can get rid of the Jace in an counter attack. An Entreat the Angels for 2 is neutered by my remaining Removal. The match goes on and he plays all his 4 Terminus, 3-4 Swords to Plowshares, like 2 Dig through Time but I can always stick one creature euqipped with the sword and eventually get a Umezawa's Jitte online, the turn before he Entreats for 4 Angels I think. Thanks to the lifegain from SoLaS and the freshly played Jitte I can race and win an exciting first game.
The second game is over mch faster as he misses his 5th landdrop and I have the Wasteland for his fourth land and a Knight of the Reliquary vs. his Vendilion Clique. No Teeg needed at all!

I think my opponent played well, but I made some unconventional decisions and was very patient. All in all a hell of game and maybe some really great magic we've played there.

Maybe you even know my opponent, according to Julian's report about Lille he stayed with you in the castle, he had some fancy red/black hair.

Disclaimer: I wrote that game down from memory, so maybe I forgot something, but I think I covered the key plays which led to victory.

[oSeabass]

Don't play too much cute toolbox things, keep it as straight as possible especially when you're just starting to play Maverick. Once you have more experience with the deck, you will know which toolbox cards you want (or not).

Maverick was my first Legacy deck I built into slowly while trading Standard stuff to get into the format. It was the deck I evolved as I got cards, so as I learned it the tool box became the best part about it. I ran Temple Gardens until I had Savannah, odd packages and creatures like Scryb Ranger, Mangara/Karakas, and Fauna Shaman/Vengevine. Maverick is probably the deck I was most familiar with at any point in my "Magic Career" and felt like even in matchups people said were "bad", I enjoyed and thrived.

Having the Tutor sideboard lets you be incredibly crafty with some of the answers. Since going to GP and SCG Opens, the format is so wide you need a few global answers and it was great to have like 1 random X card that could come in some matchups and be a virtual 2-3 of with Tutor.

I personally love the deck in its pure GW form, and remember when the Red splash started becoming the new hotness of the deck. Maybe I'll look at the top decks and think around a bit to see what I can come up with. I know it's easy to say "oh yeah, GW is still viable right!?" without a list and some play testing. The only problem is Wastelands on MTGO are ungodly expensive :(

[sdematt]

@sdematt you gave up on Courser!? Shame on you...

I'd personally cut 1 Thalia since you've got a chunk of "spells", but that's just me. I also don't respect safekeeper enough to crack the 75

Safekeeper is actually quite insane, especially against Miracles and it can be great against other Storm decks and OmniTell. In the fair matchups, he's also quite a beating. Putting your Miracles opponent on a must-have Terminus against a big Knight is important. Courser is fine, but Thalia is pretty decent too ;)

Scryb is there from a time when Delver was more popular, and I've liked him. Flash to untap my Knight to block is cool stuff, but flash can be decently important against Miracles, like for after a Terminus to hook it up to an Equipment. I've liked him before, so I'll keep trying him. Tracker is another option, but might be too cute. At least this guy gets past TNN.

I'd board in Surgicals against Omni, for certain. I'd likely board like this:

+3 Grip
+2 Teeg
+2 Surgical
+2 Canonist
+3 Thoughtseize

-4 Mother of Runes
-1 Scryb Ranger
-4 STP
-2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Random (Dryad Arbor?)


I know all about SoLaS, but I just don't have the room for it, and I'm not running enough Stoneforges to perhaps warrant it. SoLaS is great because I do play it in most of my other Blade decks, but I'm also running 4 SFM in those decks as well. Locking them out with Teeg is great with SoLaS, but in this deck you're also playing Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper to lock them out hopefully forever. I know the player, that was David, I think. I was at the castle as well ;)

I'll keep trying cards and combinations, but I don't think Maverick is super poorly positioned, as long as you build against Miracles and Omni. I'll need to test Omni a bunch more.

[bakofried]

Safekeeper is actually quite insane, especially against Miracles and it can be great against other Storm decks and OmniTell. In the fair matchups, he's also quite a beating. Putting your Miracles opponent on a must-have Terminus against a big Knight is important. Courser is fine, but Thalia is pretty decent too ;)

Scryb is there from a time when Delver was more popular, and I've liked him. Flash to untap my Knight to block is cool stuff, but flash can be decently important against Miracles, like for after a Terminus to hook it up to an Equipment. I've liked him before, so I'll keep trying him. Tracker is another option, but might be too cute. At least this guy gets past TNN.

May I ask how you board against Miracles?

[bakofried]

Interesting list from Sergi Juan de la Cruz, a player who frequently does well with Maverick in Spain:http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17937&iddeck=135300

Talking points: 4 Qasali, 4 StP, 3 Decay main. Extremely robust removal package. He runs 4 Thalia alongside Decay. Only 1 Stoneforge + Jitte/SoFaI. 2 Gaddock main.

[Seraphix]

Interesting list from Sergi Juan de la Cruz, a player who frequently does well with Maverick in Spain:http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17937&iddeck=135300

Talking points: 4 Qasali, 4 StP, 3 Decay main. Extremely robust removal package. He runs 4 Thalia alongside Decay. Only 1 Stoneforge + Jitte/SoFaI. 2 Gaddock main.

I like Decay main right now in Library's slot. Two Libraries main has felt too cumbersome in the current meta to me (it definitely still has a place in the 75 though).

[sdematt]

Sorry Bakofried, busy week. I'll respond when not in lecture.

Cut Library? Insanity.

-Matt

[bakofried]

Sorry Bakofried, busy week. I'll respond when not in lecture.

Cut Library? Insanity.

-Matt

No worries. I'm digging through a reading list longer than I am tall.

On Library: I can't go below 2 copies. You need the dig. If everything was a land (Knight), a green creature (GSZ), or an equipment (Stoneforge), maybe. After sideboard, your deck often brings in cards that can only be naturally drawn or found through Sylvan. Land it against any grindy match up and it becomes much easier. Admittedly I don't think playing for the long game is good against older versions of Miracles. Now that some are cutting Jace and Entreat your endgame might be relevant.

[sdematt]

With this list:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Abrupt Decay

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

Boarding against Miracles:

+2 Teeg, +3 Grip, +3 Thoughtseize
-4 STP, -4 Thalia

You're not mana denying Miracles, and slowing them down isn't the best either. STP is obviously garbage, but people may say cutting Thalia is wrong here. I never found Thalia to be amazing against them, whereas cards like Teeg, Grip, and Thoughtseize are really good.

Boarding against OmniShow:

+2 Teeg, +2 Canonist, +3 Grip, +3 Thoughtseize
-4 STP, -2 Decay, -2 SFM, -1 Scryb Ranger, -1 Wasteland

Boarding against Grixis Pyromancer, no Delver: (Uncertain if this boarding is correct)

+2 Zealous Persecution, +1 Gaddock Teeg (DTT)
-1 Scryb Ranger, -2 Qasali (+1 Scryb -1 Wasteland if Delver)

[oSeabass]

I caved in and bought a set of Wastelands on MTGO as well as the other cards I was missing. I plan on really testing out the GW list I remember and try and make tweaks to it. I know Black adds a lot to the deck with DRS, A Decay, and sideboard cards like Toxic Deluge, Discard, and Zealous P.

I need to look more into the online meta and find what is being played (besides Miracles) and think of a GW list to start testing out. I'll post a list before I start jamming games and let everyone know as it evolves. Any suggestions are more then welcome :)

Random thoughts for cards to add/test: Holy Light, more Scavenging Ooze, planes walkers like Elspeth, Courser, Enlightened Tutor for things like Library and sideboard hate, other random lands like Mutavault and some one ofs for like the Scry lands. I loved the toolbox aspect and having a lot of silver bullets. I know it's better to just streamline and run something consistent... But getting back into the deck id rather experiment a bit and see what's up.

[oSeabass]

Here is what I've been testing on the more GW base. I am not sure yet if not brining in black is just that much better, but for now I wanted to test with just GW. The side needs work, for now I noted I need a Pyroclasm type effect, maybe throwing Holy Light in as an answer to TNN and Pyromancer tokens. I also want to find space for maybe a Cavern main but the land is real tight even with just the two colors.

I have found so far the Collected Company and Eternal Witness play really well together. Aven Mindcensor is still strong with Wasteland as a mana denial plan once you set up.

The reason for so many 1 ofs is to test them in as many situations I can find to figure out which ones are super strong and which I might be better off dropping to give extra redundancy to others. Any suggestions are welcome.

GW Maverick
75 cards, 15 sideboard
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
2 Forest
20 lands


1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Voice of Resurgence
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Mother of Runes
28 creatures


1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Collected Company
4 Green Sun's Zenith
12 other spells


Sideboard
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Banishing Light
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ethersworn Canonist
15 sideboard cards

[iatee]

anyone think the KotR + Retreat to Coralhelm combo has potential in legacy?

[iamajellydonut]

anyone think the KotR + Retreat to Coralhelm combo has potential in legacy?

No. As individual cards I can see them being run, but I won't be optimistic about an even semi-dedicated combo for Legacy.

[bakofried]

LIST


So have you been testing with this much, if at all? Have you found anything in particular subpar?

[sdematt]

I was going to test it tonight. I'll keep y'all posted.

-Matt

[PowrDragn]

Yes. I believe it's definitely viable.

Right now, my plan is to play two copies. We haven't done extensive testing as we have a pretty fledgling Legacy community, but quick testing and discussions have yielded quite a few benefits.

* Pump KotR up 10+ times. tapping down all blockers and winning that way.

* In a pinch, being able to tap down an Emrakul until you get a Karakas.

* Being able to kill or gain life out of nowhere with Deathrite Shaman.

* Having the instant ability to make multiple things pro-color with Mother of Runes.

* Being able to generate large amounts of mana on turn 3-4. Not sure what to do with it though at this point as I only had a GSZ to get another KotR. Maybe this makes it worth playing one Titania again. Would also leads to a LOT of creatures :)

* Being able to Scry away stuff sitting on top to maximize Sylvan Library

* Tap down opposing creatures, man lands, etc at instant speed. Possibly slow down the use of mana dorks.



All that being said, I'm not sure it's a card that need to be built around. You can adjust the numbers and maybe add one or two more creatures with tap effects. Add two or three RtC and call it a day. It's easy to generate blue mana. Between Birds/Deathrite/Noble and maybe adding one searchable blue dual, getting U shouldn't be tough.

[PowrDragn]

Also considering trying out the Return to Coralhelm, but the main deck likely needs a few changes at that point:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Return to Coralhelm
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Marsh Flats
1 Tropical Island


Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
2 Containment Priest
2 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Scavenging Ooze


If the Return to Coralhelms, don't work out, it's not a huge deal. I think there is enough merit to give it a shot. The rest of the deck is standard fair for the most part. I'm still experimenting with the sideboard and trying to figure out what I like overall. Tested against several decks now that our local Legacy group is growing and so far this seems to be one that gives options against the decks available in our pool.

[Cartesian]

anyone think the KotR + Retreat to Coralhelm combo has potential in legacy?
It looks promising.
Am I overlooking something: Get a fetch with Knight, fetch with Retreat untap trigger on the stack, tap land for mana, untap Knight to get a new fetch.
Don't we end up with +1 mana, and +1 Retreat activiation on the stack for every iteration?

[Echelon]

It looks promising.
Am I overlooking something: Get a fetch with Knight, fetch with Retreat untap trigger on the stack, tap land for mana, untap Knight to get a new fetch.
Don't we end up with +1 mana, and +1 Retreat activiation on the stack for every iteration?

Yes you do. I reckon you end your cycle with using all leftover activations to fetch 4 Wasteland to nuke your opponent. Or a couple of Wasteland + DD-combo. Or to abuse a manadork. After that, all you need is a Life from the Loam to lock your opponent out of land.

[Cartesian]

Just tap all blockers and attack with a 20/20 knight?

[Echelon]

Do you have enough Forests, Plains and fetches in your manabase to grow it big enough..?

Looking a PowerDragn's list for example, he just barely makes the number required and also lacks a way to protect the Knight from a StP/Abrupt Decay before it gets to do any damage. I would love to see both a Sejiri Steppe and a Sylvan Safekeeper in that list to accomplish that goal. That would allow you to crack a fetch during combat, untap Knight and rotate your last Plains/Forest for a Steppe in response to removal or just sacrifce a land to Safekeeper to keep the Knight safe.

[Cartesian]

If not enough lands, just include a Kessig Wolf Run, this also gives us something to do with the excess mana.

I am assuming he doesn't have removal, because he would likely have used it at the first opportunity. That said, Sejiri Steppe is probably worth a slot.

[Echelon]

Kessig Wolf Run would also give it trample to deal with hexproof creatures/TNN. Nice find!

[Cartesian]

Good point on the TNN. Didn't even think about that, but yes Trample comes in handy there.

So let's assume we have an active Knight, and cast Retreat to Coralhelm. Opponent can use removal with Retreat on the stack, but then we tap Knight for Steppe, and try again next turn.
If he does nothing, then we proceed to tap Knight and sac a land. This is probably the best opportunity to use removal. It's still not bad for us, just 1 for 1.

Now, what if we have an additional, untapped fetch when casting Retreat? Then we can respond to the removal spell by fetching up a land, untapping Knight and getting Steppe.

When does this card become legal? :D

[L10]

I like to see Rogue's Passage somewhere in the 75.

[Echelon]

I like to see Rogue's Passage somewhere in the 75.

I'd say instead of Kessig Wolf Run. This way, you eliminate the need for red mana. I'd suggest this build to work with:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Return to Coralhelm
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Rogue's Passage
3 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Tropical Island

The Marsh Flats in the previous list were horribly misplaced, they can't fetch Trops. The current fetches can get all lands necessary

[Cartesian]

We only need one red mana source in the deck, and there is the question of reaching 20 damage.

[Echelon]

You're going from a GWb deck to GWbur. Let's try to limit that to GWbu. The 20 damage thing is solved by either having enough land or making a 10/10 Knight able to attack for 2 turns straight.

[L10]

Why no Scryb Ranger? Her synergy is nothing short of insane.

[Echelon]

Because oversights. I'll update the list. Though maybe we'll want to make it a Quirion Ranger. Quirion Ranger + manadork = 4 mana on turn 2 (3 after casting Quirion Ranger).

[Cartesian]

The thread title says GW/x, but I agree that if Rouge's Passage get the same job done, then it is superior.
I do think it is important to win the game on the spot, giving the opponent a turn to find an answer makes it much weaker.

EDIT: Misread Rogue's Passage

[Echelon]

How so? You can't feed it to your Knight, he only likes Plains and Forests. You just have to hope your opponent doesn't Wasteland it next turn, that's all. Besides, worst case scenario you get to keep smashing face with a 10/10 Knight. Draw/GSZ another one and fuck that TNN.

[oSeabass]

I think going for a red splash, and a blue splash, combined with the current black splash is too much IMHO. Not saying it can't be done, but I think running 4 BoP over 4 Noble H. would facilitate this. Having a blue card is interesting because it then brings in maybe having UG creatures in the board/main for GSZ targets as well as potentially having FoW and Blue cards out of the board, potentially dropping the Red/Black/whatever extra colors and switch to a tricolor deck post board for Bant Good Card Value Town.

Brainstorms with all the KotR shuffles. Coiling Oracle seems decent in a UG deck with lots of lands. Crazy me says Kruphix seems good with an excess of mana. Trygon Predator seems to see play in vintage if I recall. I guess what I am trying to say is that if we are adding Blue for this enchantment, why don't we drop the Black for DRS and go more in on Bant colors for other benefits. We lost Black removal in Abrupt Decay, extra crazy graveyard hate/ramp of DRS, discard out of the board, but we gain blue for counters and a whole other set of tools we don't normally think of in a GWx creature deck. I know a few years back Reid Duke (I think) was playing a Bant list with Maverick style shell running things like Jace TMS and just good Bant stuff.

I'll try and work up a list later, thoughts?

[L10]

Do you have a deck list in mind? I don't see how what you are describing as anything less than Bant Midrange. It doesn't sound very Maverick to me. Splashing blue does gives us Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm on top of discard does great work against combo.

[bakofried]

I don't think you're talking about Maverick at that point...yes, some players experimented with Bant colors, but AFAIK without much success.

Add blue for the enchantment. Then add brainstorm because you're in blue. You'll have to cut Thalia, for space and synergy. Kruphix (assuming you mean Kruphix, not Courser) and Coiling Oracle sound terrible. Your blue count would be too low for FoW, but you could get away with Spell Pierce.

What match ups would Retreat realistically improve?

[PowrDragn]

I don't think you have to force your way to +18/+18 KotR to win. The deck allows you several options with RtC.

Like people stated, Kessig Wolf Run is fine. Also, I have yet to need a full 20 damage. Often if you can just get 13-16 that's enough. Also, don't forget that you can get extra activations out of a Deathrite Shaman to kill someone. Or you can get protection from a Mother of Runes. There's a lot of versatility available.

I don't think we need to go overboard adding colors. We can simply add the enchantment and one searchable land and do what we need to. Deathrite and Bird/Hierach will give us the other color we need most likely.

[oSeabass]

I don't think you're talking about Maverick at that point...yes, some players experimented with Bant colors, but AFAIK without much success.

Add blue for the enchantment. Then add brainstorm because you're in blue. You'll have to cut Thalia, for space and synergy. Kruphix (assuming you mean Kruphix, not Courser) and Coiling Oracle sound terrible. Your blue count would be too low for FoW, but you could get away with Spell Pierce.

I was more just brainstorming things with Kruphix and Coiling Oracle. It wasn't really along the lines of "hey let's play these bad cards" but more "I personally have thought of Maverick as GW and know the GW tricky toolbox creatures and silver bullets to play, but haven't thought of the random weird things Blue would have to offer". The goal was to try and think outside the box like I will do below....

I personally have been working with just GW and not focusing on Black, but I know a lot of the community very much agrees that the black "splash" for discard, DRS, and ADecay are well worth it and not at a severe cost due to fetch lands and DRS giving access to 3 colors easily.


I personally focus too much on spoilers and look for flashy tricks and combos to run, but to me Maverick doesn't fit a "combo" or trick shell. It is an aggressive midrange creature deck with a toolbox of answers for various games, and a mana denial plan when it is beneficial.

Instead of trying to add the Blue one in for its synergy with KotR, what about the White retreat? Retreat to Emeria 3W, Landfall: Put a 1/1 white Ally into play, or creatures get +1/1 until EOT. The +1/1 seems meh, but the 1/1 ally seems decent as a backup plan against Miracles or really grindy matchups. Don't want to commit too many creatures to the board and are under a Counterbalance lock? Drop a fetch land and get a triggered 1/1 that can potentially force through last points of damage. If we get Terminused or Verdicted just fetch with the land and get a 1/1 back.

The black retreat seems ok too: Retreat to Hagra 2B, Landfall: creature gets +1/0 and Deathtouch, or each opponent loses 1 you gain 1. That right there seems to work well with KotR without having to stretch colors. Since the mode isn't locked in on resolution of the Enchantment we can be versatile with it which I like a lot. Something about slamming a Thalia turn 2, and a Retreat turn 3 to give a First Strike/Deathtouch blocker seems fine to me.

The green one works just as well IMHO. Retreat to Kazandu 2G: Landfall, put a +1/1 counter on a dude, or gain 2 life. Drop a fetch land and put a +1/1 on KotR (assume no cards in bin) for a 2/2 (+1 counter) Knight. Fetch with that land, landfall trigger again and a land in bin for Knight 3/3 (+2 counter) for a 5/5 with 1 land "utilized". Since DRS is rampant in the format our Knight's P/T is in constant "control" by opposing players with DRS. With the Green retreat we can control it back a little more ourselves and force value out of the Knight.

The white retreat seems better to me, solely on the fact it has 4 CMC so it cannot be targeted with AD. I also really like the reach and play it gives against Miracles and the fact it is 4 mana instead of 3 is super relevant when Miracles only has JtMS as a 4 drop in most lists and Supreme Verdict out the board. The main lock focus for Miracles seems to be 1-3, 5 for FoW. After looking at a few lists from the past few Legacy events the number of Supreme Verdict has gone down (I was able to find 1 out of the 3 decklists from the last SCG tracked event).
===============

Is there any though tot Woodland Wanderer 3G 2/2 Vigilance, trample. Enters with +1/1 counter for each different color mana used to cast. With access to 3 colors with lands, and the other two through DRS/BoP/NH could this creature see play? 4 mana doesn't die to AD. Vigilance, trample to get over TNN. Potentially becomes a 6/6 for 4 mana with upsides. Maybe the cost of needing the other colors is too much, seeing as how we can't GSZ for him or be the saddest green mages in all the land.

The new Kiora seems interesting to me if we go with a blue splash. Untapping lands and creatures (KotR, Mana dorks, etc.) is ok. She seems focused around finding and dealing with creatures and lands, which are the main portion of Maverick. Probably not worth the 4 mana since it doesn't have enough impact on the game and seems more of a Win More in most scenarios. Same thought about Woodland Wanderer.

[pettdan]

I'll just drop a few brief comments since I was recently experimenting with a blue and light black splash. I need to do more testing.

I wanted to add Brainstorm + Snapcaster Mage + Spell Pierce to the deck.
The reasoning was that Brainstorm helps avoid bad early and late game card draws. This is obviously extremely valuable.
I wanted Snapcaster Mage to double up on StP's in the creature based matchups without gaining extra dead cards in the other matchups. StP is obviously a very good card in most creature based matchups. SCM is also good vs Planeswalkers (eot Snapcaster attacking) and works really well with equipments.
Finally I wanted Spell Pierce to get some protection vs control and combo and to use with Snapcaster Mage in the matchups where StP is a dead card. Playing Thalia, Wasteland and KotR may keep Spell Pierces relevant throughout even long games.

I was playing a Dark Maverick version and intend to keep Deathrites as black card in the main and Zealous Persecution as black card in the sideboard, replacing some maindeck Abrupt Decays and sideboard Thoughtseizes. Abrupt Decay could be Council's Judgment and Thoughtseizes are not the best, I believe, in a DTT meta. I'm leaning more towards permanent based hate. Meddling Mage is a possible addition in that department.
I removed the Depths + Stage package to make room for more lands. Perhaps Cavern of Souls would be good, Snapcaster Mage is a valuable addition to the human suite and it does cover up for the missing uncounterability of the Abrupt Decays. Can even be used with Qasali Pridemage to get rid of a Counterbalance.

[oSeabass]

I removed the Depths + Stage package to make room for more lands. Perhaps Cavern of Souls would be good, Snapcaster Mage is a valuable addition to the human suite and it does cover up for the missing uncounterability of the Abrupt Decays. Can even be used with Qasali Pridemage to get rid of a Counterbalance.

I like the Cavern a lot against Miracles. I am running a more strict GW list so I was using Gaea's Cradle as a 1 of to go crazy with mana, I can see replacing this in my list with Cavern. If I were to switch over to a more synced creature base, a 2nd one might not be out of the question. The ones that would be relevant I can think of are Human, Wizard, and Shaman.

Human Package:
Sylvan Safekeeper
KotR
Eternal Witness
Noble Hierarch
Mother of Runes
Snapcaster Mage
Ethersworn Canonist
Peacekeeper
Meddling Mage


Wizard Package:
Snapcaster Mage
Sylvan Safekeeper
Aven Mindcensor
Qasali Pridemage
Meddling Mage


Shaman Package:
Eternal Witness
Deathrite Shaman

[bakofried]

I was going to test it tonight. I'll keep y'all posted.

-Matt

Any updates/changes? Doing some testing tonight and throwing Maverick into the gauntlet, want to know if you have any big changes.

[oSeabass]

Here is the list I have been testing lately with some minor tweaks since my last list. I am running straight GW since I am stubborn.


Most of the time the CoCo come out in sideboard games for more relevant spells.
Voice has not been great IMHO, only a win more. I have found that if I am ahead on board already I want to overextend with a Voice for a potentially large token.
I really have liked the 1 of Wingmare in the main as a 4th Thalia with flying, the flying with some exalted triggers can add up and seems to be really nice sometimes.
Courser is ok in some games. I don't think the life gain has been relevant. The top card land ability has been useful in games, especially with Sylvan Safekeeper. The only downside is the top card visibility to the opponent. There are enough shuffle effects with GSZ, KotR, and fetches to make this nice though.
Birds of Paradise has seemed meh. Not sure if I want something else in this slot.
Aven Mindcensor is ok when you are on the mana denial plan with Wastelands. Flying is decent.
Scryb Ranger is nice to get extra mana out of light land hands which is nice. The untap is fun and can catch people off guard.
Sylvan Safekeeper is kinda boss. Having the ability to drop a Mom and him and know they are safe is real strong. Even with a Thalia on board, if they want to spend 3 mana and a card for one land (after my board is setup) is fine by me. Eternal Witness helps get these lands back in a pinch.
Eternal Witness is nice.
I tweaked the board a bit because DRS was being a real big issue. Adding another Pithing Needle helps in those matchups, as well as being good vs. Top and planeswalkers.
Krosan Grip is great. Expensive, but great.
I don't know how much anti grave hate I need, but I am considering shifting those slots around depending on more meta games matches I play.
Holy Light x2 in the board is the straight concession of "I can't beat a resolved TNN". It is also decent against Token decks using Young Pyro, Elves, Empty the Warrens decks, etc. Not GREAT, but a necessary evil since I am not running black for ZP.


---22 Lands---
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

---18 Green Creatures---
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Voice of Resurgence

---8 White Creatures---
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Aven Mindcensor

---12 Utility Spells---
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collected Company
===============
---SIDEBOARD---
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
2 Holy Light
1 Banishing Light
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege

[Seraphix]

...


Holy Light x2 in the board is the straight concession of "I can't beat a resolved TNN". It is also decent against Token decks using Young Pyro, Elves, Empty the Warrens decks, etc. Not GREAT, but a necessary evil since I am not running black for ZP.

...



I get this reasoning but this card makes me cringe so hard. Why not try Explosives? Cleans up tokens very well and can be set to 3 with a mana dork.

[bakofried]

Just spitting out an idea: why not try Painful Truths in Maverick? My thought process:
1.) Draw 3 at a pretty competitive cost.
2.) Does well in multiples, unlike Sylvan Library (not knocking Library).
3.) Interesting interaction with Thalia. Granted, it makes it cost more, but hitting 4 colors for Converge isn't TOTALLY unfeasible. Especially if you splash a 4th color for say, Slaughter Games in the side.

It would probably take the spot of Library and maybe a Stoneforge.

Thoughts?

[PowrDragn]

Painful Truths cost more. It's a one time thing. Sylvan Library can be used repeatedly on multiple turns.

As for beating TNN, there's a local guy here that plays Merfolk and it can be beaten. In game one you can race it between your own damage and removal of the other merfolk. You can also gain life or race life totals with Deathrite Shaman. If you want a good sideboard card, go with Council's Judgment. It's also good against Emrakuls and the like.

Now, Collected Company is interesting. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it. It seems like it could be a neat card against Miracles to help rebuild. And the 4cc is hard to hit with Counterbalance...same reason I was looking at Retreat to Emeria.

[oSeabass]

I get this reasoning but this card makes me cringe so hard. Why not try Explosives? Cleans up tokens very well and can be set to 3 with a mana dork.

EE isn't a bad idea. The card was a quick search for a spell I could use in that slot without too much thinking on my end. EE works well in that I can pay it "2" and still get 3 colors with Thalia on the board with the only caveat being having a NH or BoP out for the third color. Both are buyback able with E Witness. The only problem is EE takes out your stuff as well. The deck is mostly 2-3 drops so EE on 3 kills the big stuff like Knight, E Witness, or whatever. It's a thought and a card I'll probably test a bit online to see how I like it.

Council's Judgement works well in a Strict GW list to answer TNN and other things (Sneak and Show things?).

Other thoughts I had but forgot to write down:

Cavern has been really great. Wizard, human being the big named types.
Since I have a lot of 2 drops in my version, mana dorks are a bit odd. Having 2 lands and a mana dude on turn 2 is nice when you have Knight, but if you have a hand of odd 2 drops, it feels slightly clunky IMHO. I know Legacy is a diverse format but I feel like being mana inefficient with this deck in early turns sets it back too much without having that Black splash of discard, removal, and DRS to catch up. NH is good for Exalted, but I find it weird a lot. I may want to look at different 3 drops or maybe even some off the wall 1's to help smooth out the mana on early turns.

[sdematt]

Any updates/changes? Doing some testing tonight and throwing Maverick into the gauntlet, want to know if you have any big changes.

Forgot to say that I did give it a run, but Game 1 against Miracles still always feels bad. Need more card draw. Post board isn't terrible.

-Matt

[oSeabass]

Now, Collected Company is interesting. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it. It seems like it could be a neat card against Miracles to help rebuild. And the 4cc is hard to hit with Counterbalance...same reason I was looking at Retreat to Emeria.

I honestly haven't had enough games to say if I really love COCO in the deck or not. It's a spicy trick but I feel it's just too expensive TBH. I did like it costing 4 as a way to have a better game 1 vs Miracles. I've noticed a hole in their mana at the 4 drop, which is why I'm liking it. Only thing they run at 4 is Jace and Supreme Verdict, both of which have been moving slowly down in numbers as the meta shifts.

I saw and commented on the Retreat discussion earlier, and I like the white retreat for the same reason. It's abilities seem very good with the deck too. Most people are thinking the blue one for its synergy with Knight but I think we aren't a "comboy" deck and are a bit grindy in game one. Also anything with 3 CMC is prime to be ADecayed, where the 4 drop Retreat sneaks by :)

[sdematt]

Also, I think Painful truths is fine, but costing 4 and not winning the game is harsh. I like Sylvan's repeatability, but I could easily see throwing 1-2 in to test and see where it takes us. What we're missing is always card draw/manipulation because sometimes, you just stall the fuck out and lose.

Yes, Sylvan Safekeeper is obviously amazing ;)

If you're going to stay in strict (for some reason), then just play CJ as your answer to TNN. It also hits Jace, Moat, etc. and a bunch of other stuff, so go for it. Black splash is REALLY good, so don't underestimate cards like Thoughtseize, and especially Zealous Persecution.

If you're also looking to beat TNN, you have Knights + mothers to sneak past TNN, or SoFI. That card is also good.

I could see splashing Red as the 4th colour for Slaughter Games, but I wouldn't play it as a land, I'd play, say, 1 BoP, 2-3 DRS, and 2-1 Noble Hierarch. Exalted is still important.

-Matt

[oSeabass]

Forgot to say that I did give it a run, but Game 1 against Miracles still always feels bad. Need more card draw. Post board isn't terrible.

-Matt

Try out Collected Company. I started testing it solely because of Miracles.

To the other post you beat me to respond on, I may have to try Sword of Fire Ice. The times I have beaten TNN I was sneaking by a large exalted attacker every turn with a Mom and having Sylvan Safekeeper up as protection for Mom. I was sitting on 0-1 lands most of the time but was racing the TNN decent

[bakofried]

My problem is the interaction between Teeg and CoCo. Ideally our anti-Miracles tech should be playable under the Teegfather. That said, if you have found a preboard trump for the match, lay it on me.

[PowrDragn]

SoFI is definitely worth it.

I've been playing one Sylvan Library and I really want to cram two into the deck. You guys have me moderately convinced that I should give Safekeeper another look though.

Also, Council's Judgment is not hard to cast. I play in my GWb list and it's not a problem at all. So far it's the best answer that's also versatile in use. If you REALLY wanted to rock a Fog effect why no go with Dawnstrider or Spike Weaver? It's reusable and at least searchable with GSZ? I mean really, I'd rather have Tree of Redemption than Holy Light :(

[PowrDragn]

My problem is the interaction between Teeg and CoCo. Ideally our anti-Miracles tech should be playable under the Teegfather. That said, if you have found a preboard trump for the match, lay it on me.

Not sure what you'd play main other than the answers we already have Thalia, Teeg, etc do a decent bit of work. It's just not GREAT.

For things specifically useful in that match we could just go with things that destroy artifacts and enchantments and give ourselves a few more outs of the lock: Acidic Slime, Glissa Sunseeker, Krosan Grip, Reclamation Sage, Viridian Zealot, and Wickerbough Elder are probably the only relevant ones out there. Not sure if these are immensely better, but they are probably worth considering, especially the multi-use ones.

[pettdan]

My problem is the interaction between Teeg and CoCo. Ideally our anti-Miracles tech should be playable under the Teegfather. That said, if you have found a preboard trump for the match, lay it on me.

Nothing new but nevertheless:
- Sylvan Library #2
- Gaddock + Safekeeper
- Gaddock + Sword of Light and Shadow
- The sword is good with Dryad too, once Terminused it can be fetched back eot for a new attack.

These all work with Gaddock and fit well in the maindeck.

Edit: though I haven't played against the mentor miracles yet, so I can't say how good they are in that matchup.

[oSeabass]

Sorry in advance for the long, random, scatterbrained post... I had a lot of ideas (while at work) I wanted to capture for later this evening when I could get to testing. Also: if anyone has a gambit of decks online they want to play test with, I would love to jump in a Skype call/Google Hangout/whatever the cool kids use these days and test some matchups to tune a little more online w/ MTGO.


...- Gaddock + Sword of Light and Shadow...

How good is Light/Shadow now a days with DRS running amok? Why should we run L/S over F/I? After looking at it and thinking it through Fire Ice seems better in that it does more right away with the burn damage. Against Miracles the creatures don't get killed like they used to with Verdict, they get Terminused down. My guess is that you meant the recurring graveyard creatures that get countered by the Top/CB lock which is valid, but I think F/I is still fine G1 in main as a way to get past/around Jace tMS.

For me the struggle is I don't run the SFM package because I was cutting down equipment and just sticking with a single Jitte since it is great. If I were to put another equip in with one of the Swords, I would think SFM should come back in for me. Maybe this can take the spot of the Voice that I wasn't super big on. Maybe cut 1 CoCo down for the sword, 1 Voice for SFM? But then I only have 1 SFM when I feel like I would want at LEAST 2. Creatures that are on the chopping block are:

- Courser
- Birds of Paradise (which if I am bringing in a SFM package seems worth keeping)
- Aven Mindcensor
- Scryb Ranger? I still like having this as a 1 of in the deck since it is good at blocking Delvers and can stretch mana light hands a bit which I like more and more the heavier I rely on Sylvan Safekeeper.


...For things specifically useful in that match we could just go with things that destroy artifacts and enchantments and give ourselves a few more outs of the lock: Acidic Slime, Glissa Sunseeker, Krosan Grip, Reclamation Sage, Viridian Zealot, and Wickerbough Elder are probably the only relevant ones out there. Not sure if these are immensely better, but they are probably worth considering, especially the multi-use ones...

I have spoken a bit on how I like 4 CMC, but it is slightly clunky with CoCo. If CoCo continues to be underwhelming (I want to test it more against Miracles) then I could see removing them for other utility creatures with 4 CMC. What about Thrun? I know he is kinda beast at 4/4, Hexproof, uncounterable, and Regen for 4 seems real strong. Other uncounterable creatures have crossed my mind for my GW Modern build I have been thinking over. The main creature that comes to mind is Loxodon Smiter. I know in old builds a few years back I was running Rhox War Monk, but a 4/4 that is easier to cast, upside against Black decks, uncounterable seems pretty good to me.


...It's reusable and at least searchable with GSZ? I mean really, I'd rather have Tree of Redemption than Holy Light :(...

Tree is a 4 CMC which is fine, tutorable with GSZ, can't block TNN, has "synergy" with Library, doesn't die to ADecay. Eh. Holy Light was more then just a "fog" effect but a way to kill off not only TNN but 1/1 tokens from Young Pyro, nonThreshold Nimble Mongoose, unflipped Delvers, Elves, Goblins, etc.

The more I type it the more it starts to make more sense that this could be what I wanted against Miracles that CoCo doesn't help. From my list a few posts back: Cut 3 CoCo, 1 Voice, 1 Aven Mindcensor. Add Thrun, 2 SFM, 1 Sword, 1 Loxodon Smiter. 2 large bodies (uncounterable to boot), 2 SFM to get Jitte/Sword. I lose the tricks that is CoCo which I wanted to really test a bit more before writing off, but I am thinking it might be better off in Modern where the format isn't as crazy fast. I lose the flying evasion of Mindcensor, who was fine in main to stop random things G1 like Tutors in Storm, GSZ in Green Matchups, stopping a pesky Goblin Matron from that guy who refuses to stop playing 1/1 red dudes, Fetch land hate which is strong with Wasteland, SFM out of the Stoneblade decks, Natural Order out of Elves, etc. The only problem was that Aven Mindcensor was a 1 of White creature which can't be fetched up with GSZ.

[oSeabass]

So since no one else is doing it I will be the first to share it in this thread for posterity, Dig Through Time is banned in Legacy! (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/september-28-2015-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-09-28)

With this change RUG might come back over Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show comes back over OmniTell. Both of those matchups I felt better in then against Omni. In S&S you have Karakas and other weird sideboard tech (oh how I missed sleeving up Gilded Drake). Against RUG Delver Wasteland is still amazing and Choke is an even better sideboard card. My graveyard hate seems better now that most people aren't killing their own graveyard with Delve, more value out of Snapcasters in blue decks making grave hate better in Mav.

Creature decks will be big again... HOORAY!

[pettdan]

How good is Light/Shadow now a days with DRS running amok? Why should we run L/S over F/I? After looking at it and thinking it through Fire Ice seems better in that it does more right away with the burn damage. Against Miracles the creatures don't get killed like they used to with Verdict, they get Terminused down. My guess is that you meant the recurring graveyard creatures that get countered by the Top/CB lock which is valid, but I think F/I is still fine G1 in main as a way to get past/around Jace tMS.

I'm still fairly new to the archetype, but have played a similar bant shell control deck for some time.

I'm running Sword of F&I and Jitte as my first two equipments. Sword of L&S was not added to the decklist in place of one of those two. Personally I wanted something to protect Gaddock vs Miracles and had a Safekeeper in the sideboard. I realized Sword of L&S had a broader application (see notes below) and was suitable for the maindeck and switched things around. At the same time I changed Mother of Runes #4 for a Sword of L&S. I don't like playing hordes of X/1's since they make Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution etc very good, so shaving down on one Mother in the main and one Safekeeper in the side to gain the below mentioned abilities in a card that is tutorable, that offers card advantage when tutored for and that offers potential repeated card advantage once a turn seems like a pretty good change to me. But in the end it depends on your strategy, decklist and meta. Mother of Runes can provide some good lockdowns, may play better with Cavern of Souls where you can force key creatures through counters and then protect them. Equipments may be better with Cradle, allowing you to play, equip and attack during the same turn. And there are probably a dozen other synergies that I'm not even thinking of right now..

Sword of L&S has the following applications:
- Equip a bird for infinite blocking of Marit Lage.
- Equip Gaddock for soft lock vs Miracles.
- Equip Dryad to force Terminus from Miracles, then fetch it back eot and equip again.
- Life gain vs Burn, Grixis, etc.
- Qasali Pridemage recursive artifact/enchantment destruction.
- Block and attack through Batterskull equipped on a germ token.
- Good vs D&T for winning a damage race and protecting key creatures.
- Life gain for extra card draw through Sylvan Library.

In addition to above I often have the feeling that if you can keep an equipment on board you're winning the fair matchups. May not be completely true, but it is almost always a very powerful card, turning any random creature into a good threat.

Yes, it loses some application vs Deathrite. But Deathrite is a prime StP target.

[oSeabass]

I'm still fairly new to the archetype, but have played a similar bant shell control deck for some time.

I'm running Sword of F&I and Jitte as my first two equipments. Sword of L&S was not added to the decklist in place of one of those two. Personally I wanted something to protect Gaddock vs Miracles and had a Safekeeper in the sideboard. I realized Sword of L&S had a broader application (see notes below) and was suitable for the maindeck and switched things around. At the same time I changed Mother of Runes #4 for a Sword of L&S. I don't like playing hoards of X/1's since they make Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution etc very good, so shaving down on one Mother in the main and one Safekeeper in the side to gain the below mentioned abilities in a card that is tutorable, that offers card advantage when tutored for and that offers potential repeated card advantage once a turn seems like a pretty good change to me. But in the end it depends on your strategy, decklist and meta. Mother of Runes can provide some good lockdowns, may play better with Cavern of Souls where you can force key creatures through counters and then protect them. Equipments may be better with Cradle, allowing you to play, equip and attack during the same turn. And there are probably a dozen other synergies that I'm not even thinking of right now..

Sword of L&S has the following applications:
- Equip a bird for infinite blocking of Marit Lage.
- Equip Gaddock for soft lock vs Miracles.
- Equip Dryad to force Terminus from Miracles, then fetch it back eot and equip again.
- Life gain vs Burn, Grixis, etc.
- Qasali Pridemage recursive artifact/enchantment destruction.
- Block and attack through Batterskull equipped on a germ token.
- Good vs D&T for winning a damage race and protecting key creatures.
- Life gain for extra card draw through Sylvan Library.

In addition to above I often have the feeling that if you can keep an equipment on board you're winning the fair matchups. May not be completely true, but it is almost always a very powerful card, turning any random creature into a good threat.

Yes, it loses some application vs Deathrite. But Deathrite is a prime StP target.

I also don't like the mass of 1/1s and try and avoid it when I can. I feel like if Miracles shifts towards running Monastery Mentor and using those tokens as the main win con, then Light and Shadow is a lot better. I think the protection from Black is useful to stop Abrupt Decay on a creature itself, making them waste it on the Sword instead.

Light & Shadow seems better against:
-Stoneblade (Germ tokens, Stoneforge, StP)
-Miracles (Monastery Mentor, recursion of creatures after counters, Karakas is still an issue as it can bounce Teeg which is why I REALLY like the Shroud ability of Safekeeper over Mom's pro color option as well as it being used potentially multiple times a turn)
-Random GB lists running ADecay or Maelstrom Pulse.
-Burn (Life gain could be relevant)
-Grindy creature matchups for Recurring life gain and creatures
-If I had a single misers Fauna Shaman to get creatures back.
-Odd non synergy with Mother of Runes in G1 where you need any other color protections :(
-As well as the ones you listed.

Fire & Ice seems better against:
-Jace/TNN Decks
-Young Pyro Decks.
-Delver
-Merfolk?
-Grindy creature matchups from the burn/card.
-Goblins?
-Elves???
-Infect

Depending on how the meta shifts now that DTT is banned, I am thinking you might be correct on the Light & Shadow over Fire & Ice. If Monastery Mentor Miracles becomes the new hotness (which I can very much see happening) then LS seems a lot stronger. Again it is purely a meta game call I think. Are you going to see more Miracles? Play Light/Shadow. More URxy Delver Variants? Play Fire/Ice. I don't know if the other Swords are worthy (Pro GB Feast/Famine: enemy discard, untap all lands. Pro RW War/Peace: dmg = cards in enemy hand, gain life = cards in your hand. Pro GU Body/Mind: 2/2 wolf, mill 10).

As I was looking through the equipment list, there is a weird thought of running Sword of the Meek since we run a lot of 1/1's (Mom, Safekeeper, Dryad Arbor, Scryb Ranger, Peacekeeper out the board?) but I don't think it has enough impact the way the true "Swords" do. The more I think of it though, Sword of the Meek seems insane with an Esper Thopter Foundry/Monastery Mentor token deck with Lingering Souls, Baleful Strix, Humility??? DOES IT WORK WITH HUMILITY!@?). The value of Sword with M.Mentor seems enough for me to want to brew around. Maverick doesn't have as many 1/1s to make it worth it, but other decks surely could.


TLDR: I'll probably use Light & Shadow for now and shift to Fire & Ice if the meta becomes heavy with URxy Delver based decks.

[pettdan]

There is a lot of synergy between Humility, Mentor, Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek and other equipments, interesting to brew with but probably not for a Maverick list (as you're already saying). And with Omnishow being one of the main decks to beat I wasn't really thrilled to play Humility. But with DTT ban it may seem better again.

Also note that I wasn't picking Sword of F&I over L&S, but next to it.

[Jon]

Maverick seems it will be good again post DTT ban. I have always felt in every game I have played until the resolved a dig. Without dig I think the deck just sticks to it's roots. Disrupt and pressure .


Also fwiw I have found L&S to be preferable because I aggressively use library as draw and never felt the need for F&I.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oSeabass]

Maverick seems it will be good again post DTT ban. I have always felt in every game I have played until the resolved a dig. Without dig I think the deck just sticks to it's roots. Disrupt and pressure .

Also fwiw I have found L&S to be preferable because I aggressively use library as draw and never felt the need for F&I.


The only problem is Miracles. Abrupt Decay and DRS made Maverick rougher to play since KotR shrinks more often, and very effective 2 mana removal for ANYTHING in our deck not just creatures was very strong. I think what "killed" us originally was Terminus. Counter/Top locks are what they are, but having an instant speed 1 mana "board wipe" that is resistant to discard by floating the Terminus with Top/Brainstorm makes it very tricky.

I have started liking Cavern more and more, and if Miracles comes back in force then I might go up to a 3rd Cavern (maybe in the board over one graveyard hate piece since we have Bojuka Bog).

Random thought, but has anyone considered Codex Shredder of Ghoulcaller's Bell like in Modern? I don't think it is very powerful but the thought is still relevant, control the draws of the opponent. With Maverick we can lock down using Wasteland and Loam to recur Wastelands, and things like Pridemage to blow away troubling permanents. The only problem is that Miracles has so much play with 3 cards being topped, that it would take a lot of work to mill those cards. Maybe Bell and Shredder are not the answer (I highly doubt they are cus they seem super bad in Legacy) but the thought might be relevant. I'll be looking into creatures that mill ETB or something else to maybe handle that issue a little more.

[Jon]

Teeg?!??!??


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[bakofried]

Is answered fairly easily.

[oSeabass]

Teeg?!??!??

Gaddock Masta is good and all but we really only have 2 post board (3 if you are a bit crazy). In that matchup we need would need to get him down ASAP to stop Jace TMS, etc. from ruining the day. Having GSZ helps since it gives a virtual 6 on turn 2 (with a mana dork). If they have the Force, I feel like the only way is to find the Teeg and have a Cavern on one of his types (which nothing else in the deck is) which makes me sad. He seems like a very big trump in the Miracles match but they still have quite a bit of play on 1-3 to make me worry.

[sdematt]

Gaddock Masta is good and all but we really only have 2 post board (3 if you are a bit crazy). In that matchup we need would need to get him down ASAP to stop Jace TMS, etc. from ruining the day. Having GSZ helps since it gives a virtual 6 on turn 2 (with a mana dork). If they have the Force, I feel like the only way is to find the Teeg and have a Cavern on one of his types (which nothing else in the deck is) which makes me sad. He seems like a very big trump in the Miracles match but they still have quite a bit of play on 1-3 to make me worry.

Sure, but you can also run trumps like Sylvan, Choke/Tsunami, Grip, and Needle in addition to Teeg. Recall that if you land Teeg, you have about 6 ways to protect him, and equipment goes a long way in this matchup. Game one can be miserable, Game 2 is often alright.

[Warden]

Maverick seems it will be good again post DTT ban. I have always felt in every game I have played until the resolved a dig. Without dig I think the deck just sticks to it's roots. Disrupt and pressure .


Also fwiw I have found L&S to be preferable because I aggressively use library as draw and never felt the need for F&I.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most games for the past year have been "I win if I land Jitte or Fire/Ice". Rarely did I feel that way with any other equipment (a handful of blowout L/S wins against death and taxes/mirror).
I think Maverick is just "okay" again. I've been down on the deck because of DTT. Post-DTT I think we'll see more tempo delver stuff mixed with 4C or 3C SFM/DRS concoctions more than anything.
Storm will also come back hard, assuming Miracles doesn't remain at the top despite recent bans.

[L10]

Has anyone tried Mirri's Guile over Sylvan Library? I don't think I use Sylvan Library draw ability often except against Miracles. But now that Miracles has Mentor, I don't think I will be using it in that match-up either. Mirri's Guile gives us an additional turn 1 play and a less clunky turn 2 play. I can turn 1 mom, turn 2 Mirri's Guile + DRS. Mirri's Guile can also let us see 4 cards deep with an active fetch land. I have been using it and have been fairly happy with it. I also like Sensei's Top over Sylan Library too because I can hide a useful spell like Abrupt Decay or Plow against discard, and use it at a moment's notice. Top also helps in the more grindy games with Knight out because we can spin top (3 cards deep), use Knight to fetch for a fetch land, spin top again (6 cards deep), crack fetch, spin top again (9 cards deep).

[Koby]

If you need that much dig, just play Brainstorm and Jace. The question is, what are you digging for?

[L10]

Oh, I don't necessarily need that much dig. I just think having the option is nice. I am currently testing with two Mirri's Guile over Sylvan Library and am liking it because it is an additional first turn play between 4 DRS, 4 Mom, and 4 GSZ. Without Mirri's Guile, the chance of having a turn 1 play is 81% on play, 85% on draw. With 2 Mirri's Guile, that chance of having a turn 1 play is 86% on play, 90% on draw. This doesn't include Plow though. Mirri's Guile on Turn 1 can help me find a land if I kept a greedy hand. Mirri's Guile on Turn 2 is also good because that let's leave up mana for Plow or drop another 1 drop like DRS or Mom.

I like SDT against the really grindy decks when I am in a stalled board state. The deck is helps me the most I think is Miracles. With Teeg out, it helps me search for other potentially wanted tutor target (especially Pridemage) because my GSZ is shut off. Post board, it helps me dig for one of my 2 Krosan Grips and 4 Abrupt Decays against CB or SDT (with Grip). It just so happens that SDT just works really well due the amount of shuffle effects we have in our deck, especially with an active KotR out. While the extra digging is probably not needed, having the option is very nice.

Either ways, I have been happy with both Mirri's Guile and SDT over Sylvan Library ever since Mentor got printed.

[Jon]

I have felt every game I win is somewhat based on drawing library. I play two MD library along with a courser and I am allowed to dig and dig without losing too much life while gaining all the advantage.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[oSeabass]

I have felt every game I win is somewhat based on drawing library. I play two MD library along with a courser and I am allowed to dig and dig without losing too much life while gaining all the advantage.

Courser is a nice body since it survives a Lightning Bolt, and the life gain is handy. The only thing I am still deciding on is if I like the "opponent and you both can see your draw". When I can see a card coming up that changes my line of play, I am happy. When my opponent sees a card coming up and knows they are safe to do whatever, I am sad. Is the benefit of Courser to you the lifegain, the drawing lands off the top, the body at x/4, mana cost on curve, seeing the top card to make play changes? I haven't been wowed by it so far, just kinda let it work a little. I feel like as a 1 of I would maybe want to run another Teeg main, or a 4th Thalia, extra Qasali Pridemage, my 4th Noble (I run 3 Noble, 1 BoP), my 4th Mom (I run 3 Mom, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper).

I like the idea of being a toolbox green creature deck with access to GSZ, but sometimes you don't have a GSZ and are just forced to play value town mayor. If the mayor of value town is in a random game 1 matchup, what would he rather see: a 2/4 3 mana show everyone your next draw maybe gain some life, or another XYZ to be slightly annoying to your opponent.

[Jon]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/02/ea5dfd239c1ee4563103efc2ee6b0493.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/02/f4c92fac75a8658c43b654f13cf39fbd.jpg

This is the last list I played. I was very happy with it

I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[Koby]

Courser is a nice body since it survives a Lightning Bolt, and the life gain is handy. The only thing I am still deciding on is if I like the "opponent and you both can see your draw". When I can see a card coming up that changes my line of play, I am happy. When my opponent sees a card coming up and knows they are safe to do whatever, I am sad. Is the benefit of Courser to you the lifegain, the drawing lands off the top, the body at x/4, mana cost on curve, seeing the top card to make play changes? I haven't been wowed by it so far, just kinda let it work a little. I feel like as a 1 of I would maybe want to run another Teeg main, or a 4th Thalia, extra Qasali Pridemage, my 4th Noble (I run 3 Noble, 1 BoP), my 4th Mom (I run 3 Mom, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper).

I like the idea of being a toolbox green creature deck with access to GSZ, but sometimes you don't have a GSZ and are just forced to play value town mayor. If the mayor of value town is in a random game 1 matchup, what would he rather see: a 2/4 3 mana show everyone your next draw maybe gain some life, or another XYZ to be slightly annoying to your opponent.

The purpose of Courser is card quality. Giving your opponents information about your next draw is typically irrelevant since this deck has no reactive spells, and you're going to Sorcery speed everything. Being able to play lands off the top instead of drawing them is a huge boost for mid-game.

[bakofried]

The purpose of Courser is card quality. Giving your opponents information about your next draw is typically irrelevant since this deck has no reactive spells, and you're going to Sorcery speed everything. Being able to play lands off the top instead of drawing them is a huge boost for mid-game.

I don't suppose there's a list you're tinkering with? :D

[iamajellydonut]

While we're having this talk about Courser/Library/Guile/Top...

If you find you're not paying life for Sylvan Library all that often, L10, you're doing it wrong.

[L10]

Well, it appears that way. Maybe I am not aggressive enough with it.

[iamajellydonut]

Well, it appears that way. Maybe I am not aggressive enough with it.

I mean, there's a fine line between being too idle and being too aggressive.

I see players wait extra turns to execute plans because they are too afraid to pay four life and I've seen players gun it with sixteen life over two turns just because they could. Both strategies fail miserably. Pace yourself, but don't be afraid to pay the life if you need to. Hell, the other day I paid four life two turns in a row just to keep myself theoretical-Daze-proof against RUG.

[bakofried]

My pace is dictated by whether I have a shuffle effect. If I peek and see 3 pieces of hot garbage and I have a way to clear it, I'll take the best card and maybe go deep next turn.

[Koby]

I don't suppose there's a list you're tinkering with? :D

Something along these lines: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13776&iddeck=101263
A few things shift around like #s on Wasteland, Mother of Runes. QPM is at 2 now, there's a SoLS in the maindeck, Scryb Ranger has been eliminated (and unlikely to come back). DRS went to 4 during the Delve Days, but I think going back to NH/DRS split seems fine now.

[Jon]

While we're having this talk about Courser/Library/Guile/Top...

If you find you're not paying life for Sylvan Library all that often, L10, you're doing it wrong.

I have lost a ton of games due to being hesitant, I found my win % went up when I got more aggressive with my Library. I play 7 Removal spells so as long as they dont have reach I can control all the dudes and win with a Sigarda or Big Knight whenever the time comes.

[CantDecide]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/02/ea5dfd239c1ee4563103efc2ee6b0493.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/02/f4c92fac75a8658c43b654f13cf39fbd.jpg

This is the last list I played. I was very happy with it

I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

Hey man, can i have a text version of your list as they're are a few cards out of frame on these photo's

[Jon]

Sure! Im headed to a GPT soon so I can post a text version of my current list!

[CantDecide]

Thanks!

[oSeabass]

Sure! Im headed to a GPT soon so I can post a text version of my current list!

Let me know how Anafenza works out for you. Seems spicy.

[haganbmj]

Sure! Im headed to a GPT soon so I can post a text version of my current list!

In the meantime here's a text version of what Jon posted. I'll let him update this after the GPT with his sideboard and stuff (you can quote this and cut away the excess to get the bbcode if you want).
I'll take a guess that it has a Seal of Cleansing, maybe an extra Teeg, a Toxic Deluge, and some other stuff.
EDIT: Well maybe you don't need the Seal now that the DTT ban is in place.

Creatures (21) + Spells (15)Lands (24)Sideboard
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sideboard Card A
2 Sideboard Card B

[Warden]

I have lost a ton of games due to being hesitant, I found my win % went up when I got more aggressive with my Library. I play 7 Removal spells so as long as they dont have reach I can control all the dudes and win with a Sigarda or Big Knight whenever the time comes.

This all makes a lot of sense Jon. Other than "I didn't see SL all game", perhaps I've been under-aggressive with it. The 7 removal MD is something I should examine. I feel sometimes I just don't have enough threats if my spell-count (plus equipment) is too high.

How has Rogue's Passage been in competition? I feel I'd rather run DD/Stage if I wanted something to break parity. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong? Making anything unblockable is definitely something I'd want.

Although I've been on playing hiatus for a few months, my last iterations of Maverick were rather vanilla in the manabase: fetches, duals, basics, 4 wastes, 1 karakas, 1 cradle, 1 arbor. I wanted to try Vault of the Archangel, but believe it's too cutesy/black dependent. Gavony Township is great if you can use it over multiple turns, but that's asking for a lot. Leads me to ask how Passage has been.

If and when I get a chance to play again (see: life), I'd want some kind of trump card. Perhaps this land is what I'm after. I'm mulling over Tasigur, the Golden Fang. He's been discussed many pages back. Yes, on paper, he is anti-synergetic. But in real life he's brutal. He also takes pressure away from me relying upon KotR. There are many games I have a handful of durdles and no beater. I feel Tasigur coming down for B or B+1 or B+2 would be incredibly helpful.

[Nik842]

To everyone playing a 1-of Dark Depths & Thespian's Stage, how have you been liking them in the deck? I've been playing with a 1-of of each, and really have only gotten the 20/20 token once. Every other time I play I either never remember it's in the deck, I'm don't need it or can't race fast enough with my opponent to be able to survive to play it.

[tescrin]

I think Tasigur is a Bob/Goyf and not a bad way to incorporate some CA while getting more beaters. I think my main qualm with it is Karakas. Opposing Mavs, D&Ts, Miracles, and a random slew of other decks can really hurt your investment of grave sources.

[Jon]

This is my post DTT Ban list, I changed a few things and moved some numbers based on my experience with the deck!

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddok Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Anafenza the Foremost
1 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda
4 GSZ
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Rouges Passage
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou


SB

3 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Warmth // 1 Maze of Ith
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Life from the Loam



On Anafenza, The ability to use SFM / Mom / Knight / Arbor/ DRS / Hierarch precombat and put a +1/+1 counter on them has proven to be insane. A 3/2 Thalia is a beast, same is a 2/3 DRS at blocking.

On Tasugar, I think he is bad in this deck, Dis-synergy for a 4/5 body is not what I am interested in.

On Rouges Passage, Helps me pound through the troves of Goyf , TNN, Mirror, and dude decks. Card can be very good against Elves to push Jitte damage around Wirewood.

On Dark Depths / Stage, I have tried it, I wasn't very happy with it. I found I liked passage + Cradle. I think Stage / Depths is fine but without a way to recur it, its a slow combo that only happens of knight is online for two turns, which you should be winning regardless.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/3305f75a48d27418e455a008d3c6e20b.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/a02d8eac84c56f9ad7f299175b7d6888.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/05/7d71bab800109647fcae288e4c7a26d2.jpg

[Jon]

Also, I think with Dig gone, Maverick needs 6-7 removal spells to deal with all the dudes comming back into the format!

[Warden]

To everyone playing a 1-of Dark Depths & Thespian's Stage, how have you been liking them in the deck? I've been playing with a 1-of of each, and really have only gotten the 20/20 token once. Every other time I play I either never remember it's in the deck, I'm don't need it or can't race fast enough with my opponent to be able to survive to play it.

The times I ran DD/Stage, it usually won me 2 games. I had a fair bit of luck also randomly drawing the combo at several events for an "oops I win" turn 4. If your games get grindy, you nearly insta-win with active Knights. I'll be honest though, DD/Stage was NOT something I went after immediately. Establishing the Thalia + Wasteland + Knight beatdown was almost always better. That is what led me to abandoning the combo package altogether (plus meta shift).


I think Tasigur is a Bob/Goyf and not a bad way to incorporate some CA while getting more beaters. I think my main qualm with it is Karakas. Opposing Mavs, D&Ts, Miracles, and a random slew of other decks can really hurt your investment of grave sources.

This would be a strong reason not to run him. I'd have to evaluate whether people were running enough Karakas. Then again, you could be mindful to play around it. Decks pack 1 Karakas and almost always it's without recursion. Against Miracles he's okay. I usually have a bin full of garbage. If Tasigur stays on the table for even a turn, he gives you well needed card advantage. There's also the idea that wastelands pseudo protect him against the karakas play while Mom (and in some ways Thalia) serve as bodyguards.

@Jon
My list, using yours as inspiration:
-1 DRS
-1 Anafenza (neat tricks, but not sold. I'd have Tasigur in here)
-1 Sigarda
-1 Decay
+1 Noble #2 (gives you 4 exalted)
+1 Courser or Ooze #2
+1 Tasigur
+1 SFM #2
*Trade 2 Library for Sensei's Top
*Trade 3 Flats for Verdants
*Possibly trade out Light/Shadow for a different X/Y

The meta will still have Miracles. I expect tempo to come back around.

[Jon]

The times I ran DD/Stage, it usually won me 2 games. I had a fair bit of luck also randomly drawing the combo at several events for an "oops I win" turn 4. If your games get grindy, you nearly insta-win with active Knights. I'll be honest though, DD/Stage was NOT something I went after immediately. Establishing the Thalia + Wasteland + Knight beatdown was almost always better. That is what led me to abandoning the combo package altogether (plus meta shift).



This would be a strong reason not to run him. I'd have to evaluate whether people were running enough Karakas. Then again, you could be mindful to play around it. Decks pack 1 Karakas and almost always it's without recursion. Against Miracles he's okay. I usually have a bin full of garbage. If Tasigur stays on the table for even a turn, he gives you well needed card advantage. There's also the idea that wastelands pseudo protect him against the karakas play while Mom (and in some ways Thalia) serve as bodyguards.

@Jon
My list, using yours as inspiration:
-1 DRS
-1 Anafenza (neat tricks, but not sold. I'd have Tasigur in here)
-1 Sigarda
-1 Decay
+1 Noble #2 (gives you 4 exalted)
+1 Courser or Ooze #2
+1 Tasigur
+1 SFM #2
*Trade 2 Library for Sensei's Top
*Trade 3 Flats for Verdants
*Possibly trade out Light/Shadow for a different X/Y

The meta will still have Miracles. I expect tempo to come back around.


I would never cut a Sigarda from the deck, The card is insane against every fair deck in the meta.

Light & Shadow dodges removal on the dude for Bolt, Decay, and Swords. I have always found L & S better then F & I in 90% of the matches I play.

[tescrin]

I would never cut a Sigarda from the deck, The card is insane against every fair deck in the meta.
I guess.

-Still dies to Miracles
-Sucks against Lingering Souls
-Mom + Flying (D&T) can still chump it perpetually
-5 Mana is a lot.
-Often smaller than goyf vs. non-Tempo (Swords/Jittes, Lilys, Sylvan Libraries.)

There are quite a few situations where having or drawing that 1-of is quite the problem and I feel you're not that correct about the "all fair decks" thing, given the above statements.
Gonna die to goyfs/Kotr? Fog for 5 mana.
Go on the offensive? That 3-4 of Lingering Souls will end that pretty quick while their own swords will get the job done
You manage to get it off against D&T? Dang it! They equipped anything with Batterskull.


I can't see it being that special against Jund, Junk, D&T, DGA, Mav, or others really; especially with the reasonable chance that it is just going to get discarded against the black ones, be outsized by the green ones, or be chumped/evaded by the white ones.

[oSeabass]

SB
3 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Warmth // 1 Maze of Ith
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Life from the Loam


I might be really clueless here, but why Tsabo's Web? The things I can see it stopping (and not all the time) is:
-Early Karakas from Miracles taps for mana, protects our Teeg.
-They have an Urborg and tap their fetch lands for mana.
-Grove of the Burnwillows
-Rishadan Port
-Wastelands tapped for early mana
???

I know the response is probably "it is great against Lands" but I just might not be seeing it (or familiar with the current lists).

[pettdan]

I've been using Titania instead of Sigarda, since it is a way to recur Depths/Stage. It is also card economy, fits with the deck's land destruction theme (get Wasteland back), it has nice synergy with Karakas + Cradle allowing you to tap two lands to get a 5/3 token and waste a land every turn and finally it is your green, tutorable game ending entreat the elementals. Sigarda is great vs Bug where she single-handedly runs over Jace + Liliana, but Titania has that potential too. I feel like Titania has a greater potential and synergy in the deck. Fwiw.

Also I've used Scryb Ranger to speed up the KotR+Depths clock. If you find the combo slow that is an alternative.

[tescrin]

I might be really clueless here, but why Tsabo's Web? The things I can see it stopping (and not all the time) is:
-[...]
-Grove of the Burnwillows
-[...]

I know the response is probably "it is great against Lands" but I just might not be seeing it (or familiar with the current lists).

To clarify; I believe it won't stop Grove as both of it's abilities produce mana.
It's helpful for D&T since they usually can't pop it, it's card neutral, and shuts off Karakas, Port, and possibly even Wasteland if timed right.

It's helpful against some other decks as well, like Lands, but I believe it's primary purpose is D&T. I'd side it against Lands because if they destroy it you have card advantage.

[Warden]

@Jon, I appreciate the feedback. Maybe I've been too critical of L/S. I have run War/Peace to success and depending on the room, its color protection is just better (despite L/S having a much better effect). Feast/Famine is sometimes the better call (BUG and Goyf-heavy meta). The upside of L/S is that it obliterates Death and Taxes, which is the only fair deck I'm particularly nervous about (especially if you can QPM-loop with the sword's effects).

@tescrin, We share thoughts on Sigarda. I agree she's not the be-all, end-all. And for 5 mana, she needs to make a difference. I'd rather drop SFM #2 into an equipment in the late-game than her. Tasigur could also fit the Sigara slot because I can lower his cost. Even if I pay 3 mana, that's KotR territory for a must-answer CA machine.

@pettdan, Titania is boss when your opponent has no interaction. Almost any removal spell knocks her out. The land recursion and intricate interactions are beyond spicy though!

[Koby]

Also, I think with Dig gone, Maverick needs 6-7 removal spells to deal with all the dudes comming back into the format!

Agreed. However, I've been really hesitant to cut more creatures to fit in 2-3 ADecay. I think I might need to take your approach and trim 1 StP for a Decay to help make that transition better.

As far as the Sigarda slot is concerned, please take another look at Thrun, the Last Troll. Especially if Miracles is going to be seeing a resurgence.

[Warden]

Agreed. However, I've been really hesitant to cut more creatures to fit in 2-3 ADecay. I think I might need to take your approach and trim 1 StP for a Decay to help make that transition better.

As far as the Sigarda slot is concerned, please take another look at Thrun, the Last Troll. Especially if Miracles is going to be seeing a resurgence.

Are you in favor of 3:3 split? Or we looking at something like 4 decay: 2 STP?

[Jon]

I like 3/3 a lot.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[oSeabass]

As far as the Sigarda slot is concerned, please take another look at Thrun, the Last Troll. Especially if Miracles is going to be seeing a resurgence.

Thrun is a great choice IMHO. I have been wanting to try him out, but the only thing holding me back is the resurgence of Black "sac stuff" cards. Liliana is a pretty good way to "counter" a Thrun, and still have a mana or 2 leftover the turn after you tap out for Thrun. It comes down to 1 flex spot for a green creature in the main deck and it will depend heavily on the meta.

-More discard/black decks?

Loxodon Smiter (hit by Inquisition of Kozilek, uncounterable and castable in G1 against Blue too)

Wilt-Leaf Liege (good vs red, doesn't die to Abrupt Decay

Obstinate Baloth (dodges AD, lifegain for another Library activation if you run this aggro)

Sigarda (expensive, hard to kill, trumps Liliana hardcore, great vs POX if you can ever get to 5 mana)

-Reanimator/Dredge || Deathrite Shaman is a 4x in every deck?

Scavenging Ooze (another one doesn't hurt if you don't run one already)

-More Miracles?

Loxodon Smiter (uncounterable)

Thrun (uncounterable, can survive a Supreme Verdict)

Qasali Pridemage (another one won't hurt vs Counterbalance and Exalted helps the clock)

-Fair/grind decks?

Sigarda (can fly yea!, expensive though)

Eternal Witness (makes your threats better if the game goes long)

Noble Hierarch (more mana ramp, exalted helps the clock)

Thragtusk (expensive but great value, dodges Abrupt Decay, not great vs exile effects)

Master of the Wild Hunt (extra creatures and removal baked into one card)

-Delver/XUX ShardlessAgent BalefulStrix decks?

Scryb Ranger (can block all day long, let's KotR work overtime)

-Combo running amock?

Gaddock Teeg (another one in the main doesn't hurt in specific metas)

Wingmare/Thalia (clock, slows them down)

This is what always drew me to Maverick, the flexibility. Adding any of those creatures in G1 against the decks it isn't meant for is still probably fine at best. The creatures in Maverick are so value, that the tempo gained from Wasteland/Thalia just crushes fair decks. Meanwhile we can tweak the creatures to put a huge roadblock in the way for combo. If anyone has any creatures I missed, feel free to let me know. I love keeping this tracked in case I want to mix it up.

[pettdan]

Nice list!

However, I'm not sure Thrun is that much better than Sigarda vs Miracles. About 60-80% of the times you'll be GSZ-ing for it, meaning it's not uncounterable. Once in play you can expect monk tokens or snapcasters or anything blocking it until they've Jaced/topped into a Terminus. Sigarda has a substantially higher offensive value and the uncounterability seems like a minor disadvantage due to GSZ. Depending on meta changes monk and elemental tokens make Thrun a generally weak threat. Smaller than goyf too.

Another interesting aspect of Sigarda, relevant with the expected return of Sneak'n Show, is that she gives you the option of chump blocking Emrakul all day long. This basically invalidates Sneak Attack + Emrakul as a win condition and lets you race a Show and Telled Emrakul.

I like Thrun in decks running heavy removal (i.e. Punishing Fire and sweepers) but otherwise less. Equipments and Mothers help of course, but Sigarda with equipment is so much better. To me, having played a lot of Nic Fit, totally different deck but still, Sigarda is often a major reason to play white. Thrun is the alternative that other color combinations have to settle for. It seems the arguments pro Sigarda are only stronger for Maverick.

[pettdan]

@pettdan, Titania is boss when your opponent has no interaction. Almost any removal spell knocks her out. The land recursion and intricate interactions are beyond spicy though!

I just wanted to add that it's not quite that simple, most times, in my experience. If the opponent has removal it is often spent on a frustrating Thalia that slows them down, Deathrite often eats bolts because... 1-mana planeswalker etc. KotR is a real threat and if they don't kill it they risk meeting Marit Lage. Titania is your tutorable Loam (a weak 50% loam that you'll have to bounce to get both lands back but still; and all else I wrote in the previous post) once the opponent has found an answer to Marit Lage. So as you see you are presenting a large amount of must answer threats. Now even if the opponent can kill Titania you are often able to get a land and 1-2 5/3's out of her. That's a 3 for 1 or even 4 for 1, and 5-10 power on the board even after Titania was destroyed.

I'm just saying it's not as simple as saying she's an x/3 creature who dies easily.

[Nik842]

Just want to start out by saying, I absolutely appreciate everyone's input on this thread. I love playing Maverick, and I'm glad the deck hasn't been left to die in a corner.

Anyone have a SB they would like to share/really like?

This is what I'm currently running, but I don't know if I like it too much.

2x Abrupt Decay **took out of MB, though would like to possibly add back to MB**
2x Choke **Must have against U**
2x Ethersworn Canonist **Not really sure I care for her. My main gripe is that she's not tutorable,**
1x Gaddock Teeg **I would run 4 MB if it wasn't too much, so 1 SB is good for me**
2x Krosan Grip
2x Serenity **Reset button for Artifacts =) **
2x Surgical Extraction **Don't use it too much, but I don't think I'd take it out**
2x Zealous Persecution **Must have**
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons **Will be switching with Titania, Protector of Argoth, match depending**


Edit: spelling.

[oSeabass]

Another interesting aspect of Sigarda, relevant with the expected return of Sneak'n Show, is that she gives you the option of chump blocking Emrakul all day long. This basically invalidates Sneak Attack + Emrakul as a win condition and lets you race a Show and Telled Emrakul.

Sigarda vs. Emrakul just buys an extra turn or two? The Emrakul attacks the first turn, no blocks, no sacs from Annihilator, take 15 go to 5 (assuming 20 hp). 2nd turn, Emrakul attacks, no sacs from Annihilator, block Emrakul with Sigarda (couldn't attack with her unless you had another flyer back to block). Sigarda is now dead, Annihilator works next turn, and you are still at 5 hp with an Emrakul across the way. To me that just doesn't seem THAT great, kinda like putting a band-aid on an arm that got knocked clean off.... unless I am missing something in the interaction that allows otherwise. Most decks would only have 2 fliers, maybe 4 MAX; Sigarda, BoP, maybe Scryb Ranger, maybe Aven Mindcensor? As one ofs that seems kinda like a pipe dream to me.

[oSeabass]

Just want to start out by saying, I absolutely appreciate everyone's input on this thread. I love playing Maverick, and I'm glad the deck hasn't been left to die in a corner.

Anyone have a SB they would like to share/really like?

This is what I'm currently running, but I don't know if I like it too much.

2x Abrupt Decay **took out of MB, though would like to possible add back to MB**
2x Choke **Must have against U**
2x Ethersworn Canonist **Not really sure I care for her. My main gripe is that she's not tutorable,**
1x Gaddock Teeg **I would run 4 MB if it wasn't too much, so 1 SB is good for me**
2x Krosan Grip
2x Serenity **Reset button for Artifacts =) **
2x Surgical Extraction **Don't use it too much, but I don't think I'd take it out**
2x Zealous Persecution **Must have**
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons **Will be switching with Titania, Protector of Argoth, match depending**

My current board is as follows (and is going to be a little different because I am still stubborn and running only GW instead of GWb):
-1 Gaddock Teeg: combo, miracles, elves to a degree (stops N.O. and them getting Craterhoof unless it's in hand)

-1 Choke: blue decks/combo greedy mana base decks, RUG delver

-2 Holy Light: My card I have to answer TNN and Pyromancer tokens... I hate having this in my board, this alone makes me want Black... this and Abrupt Decay... and DRS.... and Zealous Pers... but for now I continue to be stubborn so this is here. This does NOT answer Mentor tokens in Miracles which is a big issues IMHO.

-1 Banishing Light: Sneak & Show, planeswalkers (Lilly, Jace in particular), etc. random big things I don't like

-1 Oblivion Ring: same as Banishing Light but I have a 1/1 split so it is harder to Cabal Therapy/Surgical Extraction/Meddling Mage/etc.etc.etc.etc.

-2 Pithing Needle: planeswalkers, Sneak & Show on Sneak Attack, Top in Miracles, certain elves in elves match, DRS (since I don't run any this is chill), Port, Aether Vial (Fish, D&T, etc.), Belcher, some Goblins, equipment like Batterskull (since I don't run one), a lot basically. I like Pithing Needle a lot, so I have 2 of them. I think it is a very flexible card and can be used in a NUMBER of situations. Again I like Maverick for its flexibility, and removing a sub par creature in G2 for a Pithing Needle you can be flexible with seems important to me.

-2 Krosan Grip: Miracles, Sneak & Show?, D&T for Revoker?, Batterskull in Stoneblade, the entire deck of Enchantress kinda, Shardless BUG runs lots of Artifact creatures so it is extra removal there, problem enchantments like Moat, Humility, etc.

-1 Bojuka Bog: Delver/Goyf decks, DRS, Nic Fit, Reanimator, Dredge

-1 Relic of Progenitus: See Bojuka Bog

-1 Tormod's Crypt: See Bojuka Bog

NOTE: I don't think I need this much graveyard hate since I have access to Scavening Ooze main, so I might be changing one of these, probably the Crypt.

-1 Ethersworn Canonist: Combo, Elves, red decks. I also am on the verge of cutting this since Teeg is just better and tutorable.

-1 Loxodon Smiter: Uncounterable vs Miracles, Discard from black decks, big body against decks with Bolt as the only removal, in conjunction with grave hate it can stop a Goyf

[Seraphix]

My current board is as follows (and is going to be a little different because I am still stubborn and running only GW instead of GWb):
-1 Gaddock Teeg: combo, miracles, elves to a degree (stops N.O. and them getting Craterhoof unless it's in hand)

-1 Choke: blue decks/combo greedy mana base decks, RUG delver

-2 Holy Light: My card I have to answer TNN and Pyromancer tokens... I hate having this in my board, this alone makes me want Black... this and Abrupt Decay... and DRS.... and Zealous Pers... but for now I continue to be stubborn so this is here. This does NOT answer Mentor tokens in Miracles which is a big issues IMHO.

-1 Banishing Light: Sneak & Show, planeswalkers (Lilly, Jace in particular), etc. random big things I don't like

-1 Oblivion Ring: same as Banishing Light but I have a 1/1 split so it is harder to Cabal Therapy/Surgical Extraction/Meddling Mage/etc.etc.etc.etc.

-2 Pithing Needle: planeswalkers, Sneak & Show on Sneak Attack, Top in Miracles, certain elves in elves match, DRS (since I don't run any this is chill), Port, Aether Vial (Fish, D&T, etc.), Belcher, some Goblins, equipment like Batterskull (since I don't run one), a lot basically. I like Pithing Needle a lot, so I have 2 of them. I think it is a very flexible card and can be used in a NUMBER of situations. Again I like Maverick for its flexibility, and removing a sub par creature in G2 for a Pithing Needle you can be flexible with seems important to me.

-2 Krosan Grip: Miracles, Sneak & Show?, D&T for Revoker?, Batterskull in Stoneblade, the entire deck of Enchantress kinda, Shardless BUG runs lots of Artifact creatures so it is extra removal there, problem enchantments like Moat, Humility, etc.

-1 Bojuka Bog: Delver/Goyf decks, DRS, Nic Fit, Reanimator, Dredge

-1 Relic of Progenitus: See Bojuka Bog

-1 Tormod's Crypt: See Bojuka Bog

NOTE: I don't think I need this much graveyard hate since I have access to Scavening Ooze main, so I might be changing one of these, probably the Crypt.

-1 Ethersworn Canonist: Combo, Elves, red decks. I also am on the verge of cutting this since Teeg is just better and tutorable.

-1 Loxodon Smiter: Uncounterable vs Miracles, Discard from black decks, big body against decks with Bolt as the only removal, in conjunction with grave hate it can stop a Goyf

If you're going to force GW I have to make 2 sideboard suggestions:

1. Wilt-Leaf Liege. I assume you're just on Birds/Hierarchs so -1/-1 effects are huge blowouts in matchups that are otherwise even to favorable (namely Shardless and Deathblade, which I expect to become more popular). I've played Smiter before but I think WLL is better overall for the type of matchup you want that effect in. WLL also doesn't die to Decay and uncounterability loses relevance since they are probably boarding out Forces.

2. Crop Rotation (+ Stage/Depths). I played this in GW and it was a nice card to board against combo decks where you wanted "more copies" of Karakas/Bog, and can also enable some semblance of a clock against these decks with the right draw. Its also fine against MUD and 12-Post, where you just want all your lands to be Wastelands.

[oSeabass]

If you're going to force GW I have to make 2 sideboard suggestions:

1. Wilt-Leaf Liege. I assume you're just on Birds/Hierarchs so -1/-1 effects are huge blowouts in matchups that are otherwise even to favorable (namely Shardless and Deathblade, which I expect to become more popular). I've played Smiter before but I think WLL is better overall for the type of matchup you want that effect in. WLL also doesn't die to Decay and uncounterability loses relevance since they are probably boarding out Forces.

2. Crop Rotation (+ Stage/Depths). I played this in GW and it was a nice card to board against combo decks where you wanted "more copies" of Karakas/Bog, and can also enable some semblance of a clock against these decks with the right draw. Its also fine against MUD and 12-Post, where you just want all your lands to be Wastelands.

WLL makes sense there and it is a "Knight" for my Cavern on Knight anyway which is a nice bonus (I run 2 Caverns). You are correct on the Holy Day anti-synergy with my mana dorks (4 NH currently, was 3 NH/1 Bop). I like it not dying to AD.

I used to run a Crop Rotation back in the day when Maze of Ith was a staple land in the deck. I like Crop Rotation and it's always on the fringe for me. I might cut 1 graveyard hate card (I don't think I need Crypt, Bojuka Bog, and Relic) for it. I don't run a Cradle main anymore either since I don't have the space for it. I have always liked the Crop Rotation to get a blocker in Dryad Arbor, draw with Horizon Canopy, quick hate on Legendaries, wasteland stuff, make knight bigger, or even just find a Cavern for uncounterable XYZ.

So with 1 CR in board, you still suggest the Stage/Depths combo which I currently don't have in the 75. I am not sure where I would put those 2 cards right now and I don't think I have ever really needed them. I feel like in cases where I have an active + protected Knight, that will win me the game already after a few pressures value attacks. Also I don't like having the DD as a do nothing land draw without the Stage. Stage is fine in a vacuum since it can copy an opponent's land (Sol lands from S&S), be another Wasteland, whatever. My lands are more of a resource then normal since I also run Sylvan Safekeeper as another quick protection for a Mom (until she can tap) or any other important drop. Having 3 lands in play sometimes just doesn't happen (especially if 1 of them is a do nothing DD), and I find myself normally on 1-3 lands that are tight on mana anyway. Having an uncounterable 20/20 seems pretty sweet though.

For the record here is my current list I am running online (http://pastebin.com/U4zNh0xm). I try and keep it up to date whenever (and if ever) I stream. If I make changes online I try and keep this pastebin up to date.

[Nik842]

I too have been very hesitant to splash B into the deck mainly because Bayous were expensive. Thankfully all of the expensive cards in the deck I was able to acquire by trading cards, I had purchased from an old coworker of mine for $100, into online sites and using store credit.

I got the following using online,trade-in credit:
2x Bayou
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas (Italian)
2x Savannah
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Also though not in my MB, as of right now, both Abrupt Decays are included in this.

Only Scrubland was "cheap" on ebay.

So as you can see, a lot of my higher priced card were not out of pocket, otherwise I'd probably be playing burn, and I'm sure that has some high priced cards that I'm not aware of. Everything else I got super cheap before their prices skyrocketed. I'm looking at you Horizon Canopy $12 a piece, $20 a piece Wastelands, and $8 a piece Noble Hierarch (Why didn't I buy the set???).



Edit, A lot less words, and inclusion of more cards.

[Jon]

I play two deluges in my board, I hate losing to dude decks. Merfish, Elves, Delver, whatever deluge resets and most often my knight will live.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[pettdan]

Sigarda vs. Emrakul just buys an extra turn or two? The Emrakul attacks the first turn, no blocks, no sacs from Annihilator, take 15 go to 5 (assuming 20 hp). 2nd turn, Emrakul attacks, no sacs from Annihilator, block Emrakul with Sigarda (couldn't attack with her unless you had another flyer back to block). Sigarda is now dead, Annihilator works next turn, and you are still at 5 hp with an Emrakul across the way. To me that just doesn't seem THAT great, kinda like putting a band-aid on an arm that got knocked clean off.... unless I am missing something in the interaction that allows otherwise. Most decks would only have 2 fliers, maybe 4 MAX; Sigarda, BoP, maybe Scryb Ranger, maybe Aven Mindcensor? As one ofs that seems kinda like a pipe dream to me.

For example: Sigarda + Thalia + Deathrite would deal 18 damage over two turns. More if you're getting scryb ranger for blocking (double deathrite activations). So if you can produce two chump blocking fliers during the first 4-5 turns of the game, apart from Sigarda, you are in a good spot. Gsz helps, of course. (If you have them [fliers] in your deck or not is up to you, personally I do. Separate discussion.) Compare this to having a Thrun in your hand for show and tell. I just wanted to mention this as a small benefit from Sigarda. Perhaps irrelevant. I guess KotR + Karakas and Gaddock help making this a pretty good matchup regardless.

[iamajellydonut]

However, I'm not sure Thrun is that much better than Sigarda vs Miracles. About 60-80% of the times you'll be GSZ-ing for it, meaning it's not uncounterable. Once in play you can expect monk tokens or snapcasters or anything blocking it until they've Jaced/topped into a Terminus. Sigarda has a substantially higher offensive value and the uncounterability seems like a minor disadvantage due to GSZ. Depending on meta changes monk and elemental tokens make Thrun a generally weak threat. Smaller than goyf too.

I'm not going to advocate for Thrun or Sigarda because I personally don't like either, but I do want to point out that Thrun's uncounterability does become relevant if you ever have to bounce it with Karakas in response to something like a Terminus.

[oSeabass]

I'm not going to advocate for Thrun or Sigarda because I personally don't like either, but I do want to point out that Thrun's uncounterability does become relevant if you ever have to bounce it with Karakas in response to something like a Terminus.

I like Thrun simply on the uncounterable and ability to regenerate plan, also costing less is a real nice benefit if you plan on GSZ for him.

I could see Sigarda being ok vs Black decks and Emrakul, and a Light/Shadow equipped Sigarda trades/trumps a Griselbrand. Sigarda flies over TNN which is nice.

They are both Legendary and Hexproof for Karakas on our side of the board.... I don't know. They both seem eh in spots but neither jump right out and make me feel like I need them. Part of me would rather just play like an Eternal Witness or a Kitchen Finks or some other 3 drop. 4 and 5 mana just seem like such a far reach sometimes without Cradle and already being WAY ahead on board. Like even me with no Black might even just consider throwing in a Bayou and 1 DRS just to have ZP in the board.

[Warden]

Just want to start out by saying, I absolutely appreciate everyone's input on this thread. I love playing Maverick, and I'm glad the deck hasn't been left to die in a corner.

Anyone have a SB they would like to share/really like?

This is what I'm currently running, but I don't know if I like it too much.

2x Abrupt Decay **took out of MB, though would like to possibly add back to MB**
2x Choke **Must have against U**
2x Ethersworn Canonist **Not really sure I care for her. My main gripe is that she's not tutorable,**
1x Gaddock Teeg **I would run 4 MB if it wasn't too much, so 1 SB is good for me**
2x Krosan Grip
2x Serenity **Reset button for Artifacts =) **
2x Surgical Extraction **Don't use it too much, but I don't think I'd take it out**
2x Zealous Persecution **Must have**
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons **Will be switching with Titania, Protector of Argoth, match depending**


Edit: spelling.

I tweak my board depending upon the room. Here is the "stock" setup

1 Teeg
2 Canonist
6 additional anti-combo/control
4 anti-swarm
2 meta-dependent

If the room is blue-heavy and/or lacks combo
1 Teeg
1 abrupt decay
3 anti-blue
5 anti-combo/control
5 anti-combo/control

When you want to next-level folks
1 Teeg
4 anti-combo/control
5 NO & NO targets (3 NO, 1 Progen, 1 additional ridiculous thing like Ruric Thar)
5 anti-swarm

***
Sorry if my classification is vague. Each category could be a handful of cards. I'm not married to any anti-combo card outside of Canonist and Teeg. I don't even think Thoughtseize is a requirement by default. The last SB config helped me win a last-chance grinder for byes last year at GP:NJ. People underestimate NO package being a thing (especially in a random-any-deck-can-win) situation.

[tescrin]

I usually have 4 grave hate that double as things:

2 Rips/Relics/Nihil Spellbombs/etc..
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Cages are good enough (to side) for Elves and cantripping exilers are nice for lands or similar.

I'll say that Thalia/Wasteland/Discard often seem like enough vs. Dredge.. but I *really* hate the deck :p.

[uncletiggy]

Dryad militant is a beating vs dredge and worth the slot if you expect it. It has applications in other combo matches as well

[tescrin]

Dryad militant is a beating vs dredge and worth the slot if you expect it. It has applications in other combo matches as well

I like that she's GSZ-able; but I didn't have much success with it. Main-deck I could see it but when I tried it it didn't come up enough to want to fetch. Either I go for Scooze or I already lost.

I found that Militant, since it doesn't stop Ichorid, Bridge, or cards already in the grave; I felt it was too low impact.
I imagine it works pretty well if you get it in the opening hand; but we'd all rather have the bridge or probably have Spellbomb ya know?

I wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate why you like it; as I'd love to see the card work sometime.

[oSeabass]

I like that she's GSZ-able; but I didn't have much success with it. Main-deck I could see it but when I tried it it didn't come up enough to want to fetch. Either I go for Scooze or I already lost.

I found that Militant, since it doesn't stop Ichorid, Bridge, or cards already in the grave; I felt it was too low impact.
I imagine it works pretty well if you get it in the opening hand; but we'd all rather have the bridge or probably have Spellbomb ya know?

I wouldn't mind hearing you elaborate why you like it; as I'd love to see the card work sometime.

What about Ground Seal? I know it is not GSZ-able, but my version I don't run DRS so I don't think I lose much by turning off the graveyard that way. Stops Snapcaster, Reanimator, DRS but doesn't reset the graveyard like Spellbomb/Crypt/Bojuka Bog/etc. I find DRS is an issue against me since I only have the 4 removal spells in StP in my GW version. GWb has ADecay to kill DRS, but I am left trying to be a little inventive :) (or once again I could stop being stubborn and just run black).

[TheKingslayer]

Whatever happened to Thomas Herzog? Is the man still a wizard?

[Koby]

I'm not going to advocate for Thrun or Sigarda because I personally don't like either, but I do want to point out that Thrun's uncounterability does become relevant if you ever have to bounce it with Karakas in response to something like a Terminus.

This is the reason why I brought him up actually. Both Sigarda and Thrun are typically GSZ targets that don't get colded by Jace, but Thrun can come back down unopposed after a board-wipe without worrying about CB locks or the rogue Counterspells.

Sigarda has other applications, too vs Sneak & Show and Liliana decks.
Thrun is for the Miracle heavy metas.

[Seraphix]

...

They are both Legendary and Hexproof for Karakas on our side of the board.... I don't know. They both seem eh in spots but neither jump right out and make me feel like I need them. Part of me would rather just play like an Eternal Witness or a Kitchen Finks or some other 3 drop. 4 and 5 mana just seem like such a far reach sometimes without Cradle and already being WAY ahead on board. Like even me with no Black might even just consider throwing in a Bayou and 1 DRS just to have ZP in the board.

I don't think you play Sigarda at all without a Cradle in your deck. I don't know why you wouldn't play Cradle in GW or GWb though because its really, really good.


What about Ground Seal? I know it is not GSZ-able, but my version I don't run DRS so I don't think I lose much by turning off the graveyard that way. Stops Snapcaster, Reanimator, DRS but doesn't reset the graveyard like Spellbomb/Crypt/Bojuka Bog/etc. I find DRS is an issue against me since I only have the 4 removal spells in StP in my GW version. GWb has ADecay to kill DRS, but I am left trying to be a little inventive :) (or once again I could stop being stubborn and just run black).

If you want more cheap answers to DRS in GW you can play Path or Sunlance in your board.

[oSeabass]

I don't think you play Sigarda at all without a Cradle in your deck. I don't know why you wouldn't play Cradle in GW or GWb though because its really, really good.

If you want more cheap answers to DRS in GW you can play Path or Sunlance in your board.

I'll have to try these out. Thanks for the help.

EDIT: I wanna also ask if anyone has done any testing with new cards from BFZ. As far as I know my understanding of the rules states that Devoid creatures have no color which is characteristic defining even when it is in the deck, so it cannot be searched up using GSZ.

Has anyone tried any of the Retreats that people got excited about when the Blue one was announced? I might slip a white retreat in mine online once it becomes available to see how it plays in the more Miracle heavy online meta.

[Warden]

I usually have 4 grave hate that double as things:

2 Rips/Relics/Nihil Spellbombs/etc..
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Cages are good enough (to side) for Elves and cantripping exilers are nice for lands or similar.

I'll say that Thalia/Wasteland/Discard often seem like enough vs. Dredge.. but I *really* hate the deck :p.

If you're vehement about including grave-hate, this would be my 4-card package:
2 RIP
2 Containment Priest

Dropping RIP shuts down dredge. Priest ruins the creatures-entering-play-from-the-GY shenanigans.
If you feel you need "speed" against the GY, you could run Surgical or Macabre instead of Priest. RIP is by far the best anti-GY effect.

@Dryad: Don't run it. It doesn't do "enough" IMO.

[tescrin]

If you're vehement about including grave-hate, this would be my 4-card package:
2 RIP
2 Containment Priest

Dropping RIP shuts down dredge. Priest ruins the creatures-entering-play-from-the-GY shenanigans.
If you feel you need "speed" against the GY, you could run Surgical or Macabre instead of Priest. RIP is by far the best anti-GY effect.

I tend to prefer 2x Spellbomb 2x Cage.
Spellbombs cantrip and don't hit my own grave. This is good for random things and lands so i keep my aggression (KotR/Goyf/DRS)
Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things

I'll say that I've had significant practice with this side against Dredge/Reanimator in a slew of decks. I know you've had significant wins/experience as well; I'm just saying that I'm not in armchair/theorycraft mode.

In that mode, I'll point out that Cage doesn't get Deluged against Elves (I like Deluge, I imagine you use ZP?)

[Warden]

I tend to prefer 2x Spellbomb 2x Cage.
Spellbombs cantrip and don't hit my own grave. This is good for random things and lands so i keep my aggression (KotR/Goyf/DRS)
Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things

I'll say that I've had significant practice with this side against Dredge/Reanimator in a slew of decks. I know you've had significant wins/experience as well; I'm just saying that I'm not in armchair/theorycraft mode.

In that mode, I'll point out that Cage doesn't get Deluged against Elves (I like Deluge, I imagine you use ZP?)

Not questioning your experience. You raise some interesting points. Perhaps I was unclear in some of mine.
If you're dealing with just dredge, 100% run RIP and Priest. Hollywood and others have told me those are the backbreaking cards to deal with (although Priest can die to contagion, it certainly inhibits dredge while it's out and only adds to the additional pressure you'll be dropping). Cage hurts you, as you'll want to zenith (either as mana-ramp or for a quality creature like DRS, Scooze, or QPM to self-sacrifice). Spellbomb is also a 1-time effect. I value RIP "doing something" when it is initially cast + while it remains in play.

When I mentioned "speed", I was referring to faster decks. Surgical and Macabre are better than Cag/spellbomb/and even Tormod's because they're both instant-speed and "free". Sometimes you need to protect against the turn 0 or turn 1 combo. Macabre should still be in the mix (lots of folks forget it's a card) because its effects can only be stifled. Force and Daze do nothing to prevent the removal of cards from the grave.

Worrying over storm, I'd still argue surgical being more practical. Any spell they play could be removed. Surgical also gives you valuable hand information. Spellbomb or Cage kinda sit there reactionary whereas Surgical leads to proactive moves. Surgical can ruin storm's plan if you catch them mid-sequence.

As for lands, the deck depends upon the GY. Since Krosan is usually the sb card of choice, RIP removing the existing GY is relevant, IMHO. RIP is an "answer me or you just don't get the GY back" effect. By contrast, spellbomb wouldn't react to split-second. So while you can sit back on "I can 'in response' nuke their grave", a solid lands player will bait you. I've learned this the hard way over the years.

Overall I wouldn't run cage because I find myself zenith-ing for bullets. I think "nobody has a grave" hurts them more than me. I can't say the same for cage's effects because when I can't tutor for specific creatures in the library, my own % go down). Cage could come in against elves, but again, I find myself wanting Teegs at-will. I bring sweepers in against Elves.

[bakofried]

I think 2 Containment Priests should be pretty standard in our sideboards right now. Sure, it shuts off our GSZ's....but at the same time, it turns Dredge off (which gives us time to get some work done with Scooze/DRS) and turns NO/GSZ off for Elves, which gives us time for our Deluges/Persecutions to come online. Not to mention SneakShow and Reanimator...

Question, though: if you are running C. Priest in the board, do you bring it in against Vial decks (D&T/Fish/Goblins)? It hurts our GSZ's, but the mana advantage from turning off Vial could be pretty clutch.

[tescrin]

Cage hurts you, as you'll want to zenith (either as mana-ramp or for a quality creature like DRS, Scooze, or QPM to self-sacrifice). Spellbomb is also a 1-time effect. I value RIP "doing something" when it is initially cast + while it remains in play.

Overall I wouldn't run cage because I find myself zenith-ing for bullets. I think "nobody has a grave" hurts them more than me. I can't say the same for cage's effects because when I can't tutor for specific creatures in the library, my own % go down). Cage could come in against elves, but again, I find myself wanting Teegs at-will. I bring sweepers in against Elves.

[priest]
Priest also hurts you; so i guess this is part of my confusion. I assumed you were taking it because of the hate on SneakShow. The problem with priest in dredge is they can still either T1/T2 you (depending who went first etc..) and if they only establish a bit of a presence (Imps/Flying jelly) they can still use Cabal/Dread to summon boatloads of tokens.

I think the other thing to note; is much like you don't mind RiP making your guys Meh, I think Cage turning off GSZ but insta-gibbing Dredge most of the time is worth it. I imagine you're speaking to Teeg and similar for storm. Certainly in Mav I would probably avoid Cage against storm.

[surgical]
Surgical is OK against storm; but mostly to cause bad brainstorm shuffles IME. If you're trying to eat their mana sources it only really works on Rite of Flame IIRC, as the others are instant speed or aren't cracked until they've played them all (Dark Rit, LED, Petal, CMox. [I've mostly played against TES. I find ANT to be a bit easier to mess with.]) For instance, if you surgical the first Rit, they cast the other in response if they have it. I like Surgical; I just find it to be very "I hope they get unlucky" I guess. Cage here says "You can't win with the grave", and Nihil almost says the same.

There could also be the issue of effectively increasing their storm by 2 (2 life + your spell), though I don't think this has come up for me before.

[macabre]
It'd be good to try again maybe; I didn't have a lot of luck with it the few times I tried it and dredge was able to power through it.

[Rest in Peace]
Certainly this is amazing; as even if they do anything to it; they reset the grave. My thing is utterly hating those moments when you have the golden hand, and they go off anyway. Sorcery Speed can be an issue and T2 can be a big issue. Maybe I've just had lucky Dredge opponents in the past; but getting T2'd with hate in hand is obnoxious.


Disclaimer:
* I doubt we'll convince each other; but I figured the discussion is probably beneficial for the person asking about grave hate.
* I'm also still mostly a Junk player. I used to use GSZ quite a bit in Mav, Nic Fit, or odd Junk builds; but don't usually at the moment; so this may skew my perspective despite trying to keep my brain in your position.


EDIT: I also bring in sweepers against Elves, but anything I can do lol. We have a good Elves player here and I've had a few games where the slightest mistake (thinking I'll get a T2 for instance) has costed me dearly.

[Nik842]

Cage hits Flashback in Dredge/Storm. Nuf said

I'm not a big fan of Surgical/Macabre. I've had dredge/reanimator play through them and they aren't reliable against Lands or similar. Nihil can be played around; but it's more difficult, and the cantrip fuels you into more hate. Nihil has random applications like fighting opposing KotRs, Loams, etc.. and is rarely bad by virtue of being one-sided and a cantrip. As you mentioned, I find the T1 answer important so I can get to bigger/better things




How do you feel about Relic of Progenitus over Nihil?

[tescrin]

My issue with Relic is much the same as Rest. Relic doesn't "count" until T2 and Rest does it better if you want that effect.

Relic is pretty good for pinging the grave of other GB decks (people have used it on me a bit) and it's obnoxious to get rid of because of the cantrip. Nihil, however, is a Tormod's Crypt with a cantrip, making it not only one sided (which i prefer so I can keep my tempo up) and you don't *have* to have the extra 1-mana to pop it; meaning I can tap out for Thalia, or whatever. Leaving a mana-up all the time is annoying if you don't have the ability to instant speed stuff.

I guess to put it another way; Nihil is optional, Rest isn't. Nihil can cost 1; which (you see in my previous posts) I've found to be important. IME Dredge will spill their grave so you have to pop it and then they'll try to recover; while you tax/waste their mana and race them to the finish. Hopefully you set up DRS, Scooze, or another gravehate while they are attempting to recover.


EDIT: This is also what i've found with the Sylvan Library vs. SDT and Bitterblossom vs. Lingering Souls arguments. They each have their moments; but I've really enjoyed Blossom/Library since they (while less versatile) are a tiny one time investment that builds a large effect over the course of the game. This leaves me more mana for equipping, casting through Thalia, or whatever.

[Nik842]

You know what, never mind. I seriously read Relic as removing one graveyard, not all.
I am now back to preferring Nihil.

[Koby]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).

[bakofried]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).

Would you board in Crop Rotation against TNN decks as another way to circumvent that SOB?

[tescrin]

This is where I like Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. In the decks that play the Dark Depths combo, this should be heavy consideration, since it allows Maverick to have a quick clock vs other combo decks. (well, increased chance at it), and you're probably bringing in Bog against Storm anyway. I also like the extra mana source in the SB against Tempo Delvers (with relevant ability).
I can get behind this. I didn't have tons of success with Crop + Knight, but at the time I was a lot less experienced. I think one of the times this plan screwed me was having Bog in hand and the sorcery speed allowed Dredge to just win. The nice bit about crop is you have 3 or so Knights + 1 Karakas + X Crops and you only need any one of those in hand against S&T/Reanimator and similar for Bog.

Even without Depths; this is a fine way to get quick value from Loam if that's your thing.

[oSeabass]

Even without Depths; this is a fine way to get quick value from Loam if that's your thing.

Does Loam even have a place in the deck? I could see building in a certain way that it adds some decent value, right now you would be recurring Wastelands, Fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, and lands vs Tempo Wasteland Decks. The dredge seems eh since I am running Eternal Witness to get whatever out of the bin if I need it. Shrinking Knight seems sad. Being able to have a card back in hand and then virtually 3 is nice against discard. I don't know... just doesn't seem to be enough value where I would probably rather have another Sylvan Library in most situations.

[Koby]

You want it vs Liliana and 3c mid range and zero basic Delver decks.

[iamajellydonut]

Shrinking Knight seems sad.

You shouldn't be too worried about this. Knight's main value is being an infinite Crop Rotation.

Also, you don't have to bring back all three, and you can usually grab things like Wastelands and fetchlands that get plopped back in the bin anyway.

[Madmankevinx]

Hey folks, longtime delver/stoneblade player here wondering what a good starting deck list would like like in a meta made up of a lot of burn, combo, and delver should look like?

[Jon]

See my list a few page back.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[bakofried]

http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/10_11_2015legacy.html

6th place, Jacob Kory with Maverick. Interesting choices in the list. He scooped to a friend in the T8 (already had Seattle byes), but went 4-0-double I.D. in the Swiss. 61 people.

[Seraphix]

Hey folks, longtime delver/stoneblade player here wondering what a good starting deck list would like like in a meta made up of a lot of burn, combo, and delver should look like?

GWb with at least 3 basics and 4 Thalias main. For the board, Thoughtseize, Canonists, Containment Priests and 2 Teegs. Extra removal like Decay or Path for Delver. Maybe another copy of Jitte for Burn, or CoP Red/Warmth and a small e-tutor package if you want to go deep.

Something along these lines I think: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1228697

[Warden]

You want it vs Liliana and 3c mid range and zero basic Delver decks.

I go back and forth on this point. Traditionally, I'd agree with the 3C/4C delver comment. But the Khans delve cards almost invalidate wasteland-ing them into oblivion. They really just need an active DRS or 1 specific color to cast Delver, Angler, Tasigur, etc. If you can stay ahead of their lands, keep it going. The minute they land 2 and/or DRS, the whole wasteland concept kinda falls flat IMO. I could be very wrong on this, but I can't help but think those 3C and 4C decks run off 2-3 mana.

Against Liliana, Loam is spicy but you need to somehow "magically" have that 1-of.

I think some grave-hate (surgical, RIP, more Scooze?) is the solution. RIP invalidates their delve cards + DRS to color-fix them. Surgical combos with wasteland and is just solid on its own since they have lots of redundancies. Alternatively, running dedicated anti-discard tech like Smiter or WLL help a bunch. It may also be wise to bring in some cavern of souls (anti-counters) or mirran crusaders (plow through their lines). Personally, I miss Mirran Crusader. If the room were heavy on BUG, I'd put him back in my 75 for sure.

[iamajellydonut]

I go back and forth on this point. Traditionally, I'd agree with the 3C/4C delver comment. But the Khans delve cards almost invalidate wasteland-ing them into oblivion. They really just need an active DRS or 1 specific color to cast Delver, Angler, Tasigur, etc. If you can stay ahead of their lands, keep it going. The minute they land 2 and/or DRS, the whole wasteland concept kinda falls flat IMO. I could be very wrong on this, but I can't help but think those 3C and 4C decks run off 2-3 mana.

Against Liliana, Loam is spicy but you need to somehow "magically" have that 1-of.

I see no problem with trying to Wastelock 3/4c Delver decks. Sure, they might have a Gurmag up their sleeves, but they also have no lands and therefore a dumb body that's swimming solo. Most problems with attempting to Wastelock come when people get too caught up in the Wastelock effort or don't actually have the resources to make it happen. Truth be told, even in worst-case scenarios involving Life from the Loam, I'm happy just getting back a Wasteland and a few fetchlands or lands they put in the bin with their own Wastelands. Lands, although they're not kill spells, are always relevant.

Also, that comment about Liliana could be said of any sideboard card.

[Megadeus]

http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/10_11_2015legacy.html

6th place, Jacob Kory with Maverick. Interesting choices in the list. He scooped to a friend in the T8 (already had Seattle byes), but went 4-0-double I.D. in the Swiss. 61 people.

What a scrub. I'm glad he doesn't post on the Source

[bakofried]

What a scrub. I'm glad he doesn't post on the Source

Figured it was worth posting, since it wasn't up on TCdecks yet. =p

[L10]

It's a joke, since he does. I like the list. It never occurred to me to cut a Knight. I am still not sure I like that.

[bakofried]

It's a joke, since he does. I like the list. It never occurred to me to cut a Knight. I am still not sure I like that.

My emoji game is weak, it didn't convey that I know he posts here.

Anyhoo, looking forward to hear thoughts on the list.

[Koby]

I was mostly mirror effecting from Jon's list and recognizing that Courser is often tutored for as often as Knight., due to being able to stabilize better and gain value during low land counts. With DRS still being everywhere its nice having a fixed stat body against aggressive graveyard attrition.

Did not miss Gaea's Cradle, and appreciated the fact that I did not get screwed by it in my opening hands again. Dark depths combo never came up, but I also only faced Jund, Shardless, Burn, and G&Taxes; do it would not have been applicable. If I were to cut it, I would replace with 7th fetch and the 4th Knight, and stay at 61 (because it doesnt matter in this deck).

For Miracle heavy metagames, I would strongly consider Thrun over Sigarda.

[iamajellydonut]

Did not miss Gaea's Cradle, and appreciated the fact that I did not get screwed by it in my opening hands again.

Someone finally talks some fucking sense.

[Stuhl]

Did not miss Gaea's Cradle, and appreciated the fact that I did not get screwed by it in my opening hands again.

Well, as I'm not playing Dark Depths I think the situation is the same like yours. You can have DD destroying your opening hand, I can have Cradle.
I think the odds are very low as one landers are mostly mulls either way and I really can't remember a 2 lander with Cradle which flopped.
And I personally have lots of play lines in which I really like Cradle. Getting Jittle online super fast or making a big Ooze in one turn, zenith for Sigarda, paying for Tabernacle. Whenever I get Cradle with a Knight it feels like comboing off to me :P. Also, most opponents somehow don't expect Cradle.

How did you like 2 Swords over Batterskull? Only 2 SFM in combination with 3 equipments seems strange.

[Megadeus]

Purely just from me watching Jon and BmjHagan, but Cradle seems nuts. If you sand bag it after a someone you can cast and equip a weapon very easily when your opponent wasn't expecting it that turn. And like was said, if you have DD/Stage in your deck having DD in your opener is just like having a cradle as your only land, except a 2 Lander with cradle and mana dork is infinitely better than a 2 Lander with DD and a dork

[Nik842]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned or not before in the thread, but what about a copy or two of Grand Abolisher (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Grand+Abolisher&v=card&s=cname)? I know GSZ can't find him, but he does offer some decent protection, I know Maverick is not exactly a Combo deck but it could help with allowing some of our cards to enter the field, essentially giving them all "can't be countered."

Just wondering what others think about this. I might proxy one or two and test it out.


Edit: forgot link.

[haganbmj]

Purely just from me watching Jon and BmjHagan, but Cradle seems nuts. If you sand bag it after a someone you can cast and equip a weapon very easily when your opponent wasn't expecting it that turn. And like was said, if you have DD/Stage in your deck having DD in your opener is just like having a cradle as your only land, except a 2 Lander with cradle and mana dork is infinitely better than a 2 Lander with DD and a dork

Cradle was good at progressing the same plan - quicker zeniths, quicker weapons, easier wasteland-ing. Dark Depths is a different angle, but usually requires you to be established with an active knight. Jacob's lists are always cool, I always appreciate the differences.

[Jon]

How did you like 2 Swords over Batterskull? Only 2 SFM in combination with 3 equipments seems strange.

Batterskull doesn't do anything, I'd rather spend 5 mana to play sword and equip then cast Batterskull. If you rely on SFM to put it into play then you are just asking to have a dead card in hand.



I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[tescrin]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned or not before in the thread, but what about a copy or two of Grand Abolisher (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Grand+Abolisher&v=card&s=cname)?

Dat WW tho!

Seriously though; Imma let you speak and Grand Abolisher is a wicked card, but Thalia is the greatest card of all time!

[need more memes]



____
WW is bad. He fights decks you have game against or does nothing against the ones you don't. Combo can't interact with you very well; but... that's what combo does. I don't know what you would replace with him and stretching WW next to GB and GW will get obnoxious on your manabase I think. I used to run Liliana + KotR + Decay and that was enough to give me fits against Delver.

____

Loam:
I often run a 1-of somewhere since it's just a free-win engine. I did qualify the statement with "if that's your thing", so I wasn't attempting to convince anyone. It's basically Thalia #5 against some decks when you get the godly:
Ramp + Land + Wasteland + Thalia/Loam
T1 Ramp + Land
T2 Wasteland + Thalia/Loam

It's just another way to achieve the depressingly awesome Scoop.

[oSeabass]

Dat WW tho!

Seriously though; Imma let you speak and Grand Abolisher is a wicked card, but Thalia is the greatest card of all time!

[need more memes]



____
WW is bad. He fights decks you have game against or does nothing against the ones you don't. Combo can't interact with you very well; but... that's what combo does. I don't know what you would replace with him and stretching WW next to GB and GW will get obnoxious on your manabase I think. I used to run Liliana + KotR + Decay and that was enough to give me fits against Delver.
...

In terms of Abolisher he is meh. If you don't want opponent's counting stuff, play an extra Cavern of Souls.. I've been running two and loving the flexibility. Most of the time I put it on Human but sometimes it can drop on Knight for WLL. Even on Wizard for Pridemage, Aven Mindcensor, Sylvan Safekeeper, etc. Me being on GW keeps it easier to cast weird off creatures even with a Cavern on a different creature type.

Also it's a land and works better with Knight or Crop rotation and it itself coming into play is hncounterable where a WW dude is.

[Pellefant]

I top 8:ed the Scandinavian Open #7 Legacy with punishing maverick:

Lands (23)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Maze of Ith

Creatures (22)
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Mother of Runes
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Other spells (16)
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Domri Rade
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Electrickery
1 Trinisphere
1 Gaddock Teeg


I'll try to post a report if I can find the time.

[Seraphix]

i top 8:ed the scandinavian open #7 legacy with punishing maverick:

Awesome deck list

i'll try to post a report if i can find the time.

fuck yes.

[oSeabass]

I top 8:ed the Scandinavian Open #7 Legacy with punishing maverick:
Lands (23)
...
1 Maze of Ith
...

How did Maze work for you?

-I know I used to run it back in the day and it allowed for some crazy tricks with KotR for unsuspecting opponents.
-It was nice against Stoneblade being able to blank a Germ token with Batterskull, but now those decks have TNN.
-Against Show & Tell I'd rather have Karakas since it can deal with baddies before Annihilator triggers.
-Doesn't do much vs. Elves after Behemoth attacks and triggers.
-Nothing to stop DRS.
-R/W based token making deck strategies (URx Delver, Miracles respectively) have too many threats for 1 Maze to matter.
-Delver decks run Wasteland
-Maze is yet another "Spell Land" that isn't much on its own and is awful as the only land in an opener along with Cradle with no other lands, or Dark Depths.

TLDR: I thought about putting Maze back in but I think the meta has shifted to where it is not as big of an impact as it once was. I'd rather have another utility mana producer like Horizon Canopy or Cavern. Any reason why you had that in the deck or did you have any matchups where it was really shining?

[Cambriel]

Purely just from me watching Jon and BmjHagan, but Cradle seems nuts. If you sand bag it after a someone you can cast and equip a weapon very easily when your opponent wasn't expecting it that turn. And like was said, if you have DD/Stage in your deck having DD in your opener is just like having a cradle as your only land, except a 2 Lander with cradle and mana dork is infinitely better than a 2 Lander with DD and a dork

I've played both at various times, and the important thing is that they don't work together at all. You mulligan entirely too much.

I prefer having a Cradle to tutor for because it's a single activation, whereas DD/Stage is two. It just seems to do more.

[owerbart]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, never played Maverick before, but wouldn't Dryad Militant be a good SB card against storm? Its tutorable with gsz and blanks past in flames

[Cpt-Qc]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, never played Maverick before, but wouldn't Dryad Militant be a good SB card against storm? Its tutorable with gsz and blanks past in flames

It's not bad but if there are already instants and sorceries in the graveyard it doesn't do anything. I think it's better to take the first turn with targeted discard/deathrite, then GSZ for Teeg which shuts down PiF, Empty the Warrens and Tendrils of Agony. Only reason I'd green sun that early is if I thought I couldn't last till turn 2-3.

[tescrin]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, never played Maverick before, but wouldn't Dryad Militant be a good SB card against storm? Its tutorable with gsz and blanks past in flames

This was literally covered a page ago. Short answer: Sort of? So does Cage.
Basically anything Militant does Cage and do better. If you can afford to GSZ for Dryad, you can probably GSZ for Scooze or Teeg to win instead of sort-of-maybe get there.

EDIT: This is also mostly true of Rest in Peace. The above is my view tainted by my love of Cage; also covered a page or two ago. Point is; if you want T1 Gravehate against Storm/Dredge you want Cage or something. Militant isn't good enough to fetch over the cards that are legitimate (and maindecked) hate.

[Koby]

This was literally covered a page ago. Short answer: Sort of? So does Cage.
Basically anything Militant does Cage and do better. If you can afford to GSZ for Dryad, you can probably GSZ for Scooze or Teeg to win instead of sort-of-maybe get there.

Moreover, if you happen to draw GSZ in the mid game against Storm, Dryad Militant does nothing to stop future Past in Flames from winning for Storm. It's only proactive, not reactive. That makes it as useful as Thoughtseize on turn 4.

[Pellefant]

Hello!

I'm a long time lurker, second time poster in this thread. I've been playing competitive legacy since -07 and mostly play fair, non-
blue decks like zoo, nic fit & the rock and have been playing maverick on and off since it's creation. Because I've been living in
the swedish outback for a year and a half now I don't get to play tourneys that often, my latest achievment was a win at the GP
Stockholm legacy side event last year, were I played maverick splashing black & DD/stage.

With Dig getting banned I thought that BUG shardless and other value decks would be back in full force so I assembled a grindy
punishing list that I felt would be good in the expected meta. (I posted the decklist a couple of posts up).
This is my report from the Scandinavian Open #7 legacy tournament, it's all from memory and as such some details or plays might be
described incorrectly. Anyway, 70 players showed up which meant 7 rounds + top 8.

Round 1, Egil with Grixis pyromancer/delver
G1: He gets double pyromancers early, i kill one with fire but he has a third one and creates a lot of tokens while I'm stuck on
three mana for a while. I try to turn the game around with jitte but he has the stifle for my counters trigger and I'm overrun by
his guys.
SB: +1 dismember, +1 EE, +1 Electrickery, +2 Thalia, -1 Gaddock, -2 Qasali Pridemage, -1 Wilt-Leaf Liege, -1 Sigarda
G2: He counters my sylvan library and KotR but hasn't got any pressure besides a DRS and with his resources depleted I resolve a
Courser of Kruphix who generates enough value to take over the game.
G3: There's about 10 minutes left in the round and I think this might go to time. Eventually, as expected, we end up in extra turns,
and at that point there's a Sulfuric Vortex, a Clique and 2 DRS on his side, but just one black mana source. I have a hierarch, a
bird and a Scryb Ranger that works both offense and defense. My life total is high enough that he won't be able to kill me unless he
finds some combination of bolt, removal and black mana. I try to connect with jitte in extra turn 1 and 3 but opp has Stifle both
times. As the last turn of the match approaches opp is at 5 life and I know my only out is SoFaI, either drawing naturally or via
Stoneforge. Lady luck is on my side and I draw the sword, opponent tries Spell Pierce but cradle and scryb ranger provides plenty of
mana to both pay and equip.

1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round 2, Lukas with burg delver
G1: I know this guy usually play RUG delver so my hand of maze, 3 lands, hierarch, zenith and Punishing Fire seem ok. Underground
sea into DRS meets fire and he has a follow up Sylvan Library into Nimble Mongoose which tells me his burg delver today. Another
mongoose joins the fight and they nibble away at my life total while I struggle to find a threat with Cavern of Souls at the ready
in hand. At 5 life I finally find a knight and spends a few turns growing her before I can make a lethal attack forcing his mongeese
to chump block duty. He doesn't find any bolts and scoops.
SB: +1 Dismember, +1 EE, +2 Thalia, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -1 Qasali Pridemage, -1 Wilt-Leaf Liege, -1 Sigarda
G2: I get an early mom to survive while he can't get any threat to stick around besides a DRS. Scryb ranger makes his life even
harder but at least he has removal for both my equipments. I land a KotR and opp makes some attempts to remove my guys but scoops
eventually.

2-0 (4-1 in games)

Round 3, Jonas with Jund
G1: He opens with Thoughtseize taking my Sylvan, I beat him down a bit with QP and hierarchs. At 10 life he stabilizes behind goyf
but I then zenith for Sigarda and he concedes.
SB: +1 Dismember, +1 EE, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, -1 Gaddock, -2 Pridemage
G2: He get's his punishing fire going early and i never get into this game.
G3: I keep the questionable hand of fetch, dryad arbor, sylvan library, dismember, plow, EE and zenith, leading with Dryad. If he
bolts the Dryad this will go south really fast, but I reason that if I get to untap with the Dryad I'm in OK shape since I have
plenty of answers for goyf & bob. Dryad survives and we trade resources for a while and when he's stuck on 2 lands after a wasteland from me I land a
Wilt-Leaf Liege that he can't find an answer for in time.

3-0 (6-2 in games)

Round 4, Georgiy with BUG shardless
G1: Sigarda resolves with a suspended Ancestral Visions in waiting, he can't answer her and she goes the distance.
SB: +1 Dismember, +1 EE, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, -1 Gaddock, -2 Pridemage
G2: I beat him down with manadorks until he deluges for 1, then i wasteland him a bit and resolve Domri rade who finds me both
Sylvan Safekeeper and KotR which I resolve over the next two turns. At this point I know I've pretty much got the game locked up
since he is just on 3 lands. He reads Safekeeper for a while and tries to Disfigure him, but it is not to be and he can't handle the
Knight / Safekeeper tag team.

4-0 (8-2 in games)

Round 5, Mathias with Esper thopter/sword control
G1: Mathias is a good guy and a skillfull wizard. I know I'm up against some controlling esper deck with thopter/sword, but I've got no idea what kind of sweepers he's running or how many. I manage to beat him down to 7 before he sweeps my board with Supreme Verdict. From there I try to finish the job with
p fires but before I can kill him he assembles his combo and turns the game around.
SB: -4 StP, -1 Maze of Ith, -2 Punishing Fire, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Thalia, +1 Gaddock, +1 SoLaS, +1 Surgical Extraction
G2: He forces both turn 2 Sylvan Library and turn 3 Domri Rade but i manage to get SoFaI to stick and safekeeper picks it up and
goes to town. He tries to fight back with his thopter combo but this is trumped by my newfound jitte.
G3: I mulligan in to 2 lands, 2 Gaddock, 1 needle and Stoneforge, pretty much an ideal hand. He plays turn one top and i play needle
to which he responds with draw. I name top and he misses his land drop on his turn 2. He's got Spell Snare for my Gaddock though but
my second one resolves and he still struggles to develop his mana sufficiently. When SoFaI hits the board and he can't find answers
the game is over in short order.

5-0 (10-3 in games)

Round 6, John with ANT
G1: I was hoping to be able to ID into top 8 but my opponent is on 12 points and can't afford such luxury, alas we have to play it
out. He is from my old hometown Uppsala and I know he likes to play combo and is a proficient storm player, therefore I'm not
exactly thrilled over this turn of events. I win the dice roll and live to present a turn 2 Gaddock to which he scoops.
SB: -4 StP, -3 Pfire, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Sigarda, -1 Domri, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Canonist, +2 Thalia, +1 Gaddock, +1
Trinisphere, +1 EE, +1 Electrickery, +1 Surgical, +1 Crypt
G2: I mulligan to a hand with Thalia, and a bunch of lands. I once again survive turn 1 and Thalia comes down but he's making his
land drops and my clock is weak. A thoughtseize reveals my all land hand and he passes, I suspect he's not far from going off since
he's been sculpting his hand for some turns. Trinisphere comes off the top for me and I feel a bit safer. Some random creature joins
my side next turn and I can beat him down before he can answer my lock pieces.

6-0 (12-3 in games)

Round 7, ID
I can finally draw into top 8, this is my first longer break from playing magic during the day so I take a well needed opportunity
to relax and get some coffee and food.

When the top 8 is anounced I'm at the top of the standings and will get to go first in the playoffs. I'm paired vs RG lands and
unfortunately lose. The match is available to watch at http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv/v/20173492 it starts around the 6 hour mark. It
feels like I might had been able to do something diferently during the last game but I was pretty exhausted and can't exactly
remember. I don't feel the lands matchup is very bad so it was a pretty sour end to my run, but all in all I'm satisfied with the
deck and my performance. Peace!


@ oSeabass
Maze of Ith was probably the worst card in the deck. I always hate it when a delver is beating me down and my KotR can't do shit
about it, so I included it as a sort of hedge against this. But for all the reasons you listed I agree that it isn't very necessary, I
wouldn't include it in a future decklist.

[Megadeus]

Doesn't KOTR against delver just race?

[Cpt-Qc]

Not if they have chump blockers like tokens. Then Kotr hits a wall while Delver flies by.

I've tried 1 maze of ith for the exact same reason but I'm really thinking of letting it go since it sucks all other times when you're not playing a delver deck.

[Jon]

Rouges Passage.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

[Warden]

Pellefant, that was a great read. Congrats on doing so well.
Seems you guessed correct about the meta. If maze was the weakest card for you, what was the best (#1 and #2 you loved seeing all day)?

Also, did EE work well? I feel it would canabalize your table. Then again, I love toxic deluge (I guess the same argument could be made).

[Pellefant]

Rouges Passage.


I've been interested in this for a while, I'll try it over Maze.



Pellefant, that was a great read. Congrats on doing so well.
Seems you guessed correct about the meta. If maze was the weakest card for you, what was the best (#1 and #2 you loved seeing all day)?

Also, did EE work well? I feel it would canabalize your table. Then again, I love toxic deluge (I guess the same argument could be made).

Thanks for the kind words! Sylvan Library usually is the best performing card in my decks but this time it got discarded/countered/destroyed imediately close to every time. Cards that outperformed themselves were Sword of Fire and Ice, Sigarda, Domri, Courser and Scryb Ranger, with SoFaI and Sigarda being particularly excellent.

EE worked fine, it's nice to have a tutorable sweeper vs elves and it's great vs flipped delvers. When you're not in black i feel it's a necessary tool to have. It's often possible to use other removal in conjunction with EE in such a way that you don't hit your own board as hard with the explosives.

[tescrin]

EE worked fine, it's nice to have a tutorable sweeper vs elves and it's great vs flipped delvers. When you're not in black i feel it's a necessary tool to have. It's often possible to use other removal in conjunction with EE in such a way that you don't hit your own board as hard with the explosives.

This will sound heavy handed; but I used to use it over Plow IIRC, as Decays 5-7; then a singleton tutorable Academy Ruins powered by Deathrite and a 1-of USea lol. This wasn't a true Maverick or anything; but it was pretty nifty. The biggest issue was pouring mana into it and the fact that you have to design around it a bit IMO.


Not if they have chump blockers like tokens. Then Kotr hits a wall while Delver flies by.

I've tried 1 maze of ith for the exact same reason but I'm really thinking of letting it go since it sucks all other times when you're not playing a delver deck.

This is quite the exaggeration.
-Reanimator: Basically a free win
-Opposing Goyfs/KotRs/Batterskulls. Great way to hold them off.
-Opposing equipped dudes (since they can't swap the equip after swinging.)
-Attacking tricks to make your KotR have vigilance, threaten double-jitte counters, or just Gustcloak your opponent to see if they are willing to call your bluff.
-SneakShow when it doesn't find Emrakul and just expects Grisel to take it the rest of the way.

and I'm sure others. I think it gets better when paired with Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library as the time that it buys you means a lot more. Being able to buy a turn or two means you look at 3-6 cards instead of 1-2; giving you a good chance of pulling out of a problem. I can see it being something you don't keep in a deck due to it's limitations (Rishadan Port, eats a land drop, dead against worst MUs); but let's not call it useless when it's clearly quite good; good enough to be used in winning top 8s several times.

Good enough that years later after it's inclusion, it's still debated whether it should be in the 76 or not. It's quite clearly not a one-sided argument.