[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Warden]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31160-A-deck-per-week-challenge&p=995968&viewfull=1#post995968

Worth considering...

Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:

Without further rambling, here's the list:

4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Palace Jailer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Savannah
3 Wasteland
2 Brushland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
2 Council's Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing

I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

***
I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.

[aspsnake]

Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:


I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

***
I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.

I'm not really sold on Recruiter (he is superslow without vial, and this is already a slow deck) and on one-ofs like scooze or teeg without gsz. Imo, one should play at least two of these or not at all. I do agree about the point of 4 TKS being too many, Imo 2 are already a lot, and on Brushlands. I would probably run 4x Wasteland + 3x Quarter, just to have "<>" mana and to give no-basics delvers nightmares at night. I could possibly even imagine to play 4x Quarter in certain metas...
But then, any heavy-color cards go away.

By the way, with lots of Quarters, I can easily imagine mindcensor played here. It can be possibly played t2, it does disrupt certain combo decks and fetches, and makes Quarters semi-Stripmines even vs Miracles. Yeah, I do certainly like Mindcensor over Teeg mainboard. To support so many 3-4 drops, I'd also add 2-4 Deathrites (and 1 Bayou+Scrub)

[aspsnake]

Hi all,

I've raised the topic recently of how to deal with 4c Delver with Maverick. As it turned out, it was just one guy who played delvers there, and it was probably just a tryout. This deck is actually called 4c Control and is quickly rising in top8s (already 2%): http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15040&d=291026&f=LE

I played around 4 games vs them in Cockatrice and didn't win a single game. The matchup is incredibly bad :p

[timmyod17]

Hi all,

I've raised the topic recently of how to deal with 4c Delver with Maverick. As it turned out, it was just one guy who played delvers there, and it was probably just a tryout. This deck is actually called 4c Control and is quickly rising in top8s (already 2%): http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15040&d=291026&f=LE

I played around 4 games vs them in Cockatrice and didn't win a single game. The matchup is incredibly bad :p


I can't say that I've had the same experience. I usually consider this matchup very favorable. Their manabase is extremely greedy and Thalia + Wasteland often lead to easy wins, or just a Knight tutoring Wastelands can win on its own. Alternatively, Library or any of the equipment in the deck do pretty serious work as they just don't have enough answers to go around. In sideboarded games Choke is also lights out if you wait to resolve it until they are tapped out.

I think the most important thing in this matchup is to kill DRS on sight - it enables them to get away with their greedy mana. TNN is certainly annoying, but unlike against Delver their clock isn't fast enough for it to matter too much.

[Warden]

I can't say that I've had the same experience. I usually consider this matchup very favorable. Their manabase is extremely greedy and Thalia + Wasteland often lead to easy wins, or just a Knight tutoring Wastelands can win on its own. Alternatively, Library or any of the equipment in the deck do pretty serious work as they just don't have enough answers to go around. In sideboarded games Choke is also lights out if you wait to resolve it until they are tapped out.

I think the most important thing in this matchup is to kill DRS on sight - it enables them to get away with their greedy mana. TNN is certainly annoying, but unlike against Delver their clock isn't fast enough for it to matter too much.

^^this. Wasteland + Thalia (and Thalia 2.0 if you have her in the list) is downright bonkers.
DRS holds their greedy colors together and they typically struggle early if you keep them off activating him.

[aspsnake]

^^this. Wasteland + Thalia (and Thalia 2.0 if you have her in the list) is downright bonkers.
DRS holds their greedy colors together and they typically struggle early if you keep them off activating him.

You guys were right. Now, when I started to better understand how their deck works and which sources should I waste then, I feel like my matchup improved from being impossible to being hard :) Winning scenario is indeed Swords into DRS -> Thalia -> Wasteland -> Choke. It is very interesting that apparently vs D&T/Maverick they side out all their counterspells and they don't play Daze, and this is something I missed too (was slowing myself down sometimes trying to play around it).

What freaks me off is amount of different builds of this deck, against which my sb differs (and they play similar cards, so it's really hard to say what exactly do they play).

I made some conclusions by myself that might prove to be interesting for you guys.

Important: most builds do not play Wastelands, so bring your fancy duals on the table and avoid colourscrew.
Wastelanding:
Against builds with basic Island/Swamp: they typically have ~2 non-DRS green and red sources, so it is quite possible to waste them from these colours, so go for Bayou/Badlands or Tropical/Volcanic, depending on which colour do they lack more - black or blue.
Against builds without basics: almost always waste Sea, as they really need black&blue in order for their deck to work, and they run 3+ green/red sources, so you will probably not be able to waste them of a color away completely.

Against builds with 2 Snapcasters: bring in 1 Surgical post-board and leave out Prelates if you play them.
Against builds with 4 Snapcasters: bring 2 Surgicals (when in doubt after game 1, bring 2, they are not bad against this deck) and leave Prelates in (Surgical into push(or bolt)/decay and Prelate for 2/1 + stripping them of red mana (for Kolaghan) sometimes works).

Always bring Persecutions: Baleful Strix, Snapcaster, Pyromancer (some builds play him!), and True-name all have toughness of 1. Sometimes, they make the mistake of blocking your Shaman with their Shaman, and Persecution does its best there.
Always bring Abrupt Decays and any other removal if you have extras in sb: killing Shaman is the key to winning this game.
Always bring Choke, this card wrecks them post-board when they tap out as they don't run counterspells post-board.
Always side out Vials if you play them: see or expect Kolaghan's Command -> side vials away. CA is much more important than tempo in the matchup, and counterspells are not a thing post-board anyways.

When playing creatures, first play creatures that you will miss less and let them waste removal into them, play Knights last and hope that they run out of removal gas. Use Shamans defensively: don't let them get mana if they lack any specific color, especially black or blue.

[Warden]

You guys were right. Now, when I started to better understand how their deck works and which sources should I waste then, I feel like my matchup improved from being impossible to being hard :) Winning scenario is indeed Swords into DRS -> Thalia -> Wasteland -> Choke. It is very interesting that apparently vs D&T/Maverick they side out all their counterspells and they don't play Daze, and this is something I missed too (was slowing myself down sometimes trying to play around it).

What freaks me off is amount of different builds of this deck, against which my sb differs (and they play similar cards, so it's really hard to say what exactly do they play).

I made some conclusions by myself that might prove to be interesting for you guys.

Important: most builds do not play Wastelands, so bring your fancy duals on the table and avoid colourscrew.
Wastelanding:
Against builds with basic Island/Swamp: they typically have ~2 non-DRS green and red sources, so it is quite possible to waste them from these colours, so go for Bayou/Badlands or Tropical/Volcanic, depending on which colour do they lack more - black or blue.
Against builds without basics: almost always waste Sea, as they really need black&blue in order for their deck to work, and they run 3+ green/red sources, so you will probably not be able to waste them of a color away completely.

Against builds with 2 Snapcasters: bring in 1 Surgical post-board and leave out Prelates if you play them.
Against builds with 4 Snapcasters: bring 2 Surgicals (when in doubt after game 1, bring 2, they are not bad against this deck) and leave Prelates in (Surgical into push(or bolt)/decay and Prelate for 2/1 + stripping them of red mana (for Kolaghan) sometimes works).

Always bring Persecutions: Baleful Strix, Snapcaster, Pyromancer (some builds play him!), and True-name all have toughness of 1. Sometimes, they make the mistake of blocking your Shaman with their Shaman, and Persecution does its best there.
Always bring Abrupt Decays and any other removal if you have extras in sb: killing Shaman is the key to winning this game.
Always bring Choke, this card wrecks them post-board when they tap out as they don't run counterspells post-board.
Always side out Vials if you play them: see or expect Kolaghan's Command -> side vials away. CA is much more important than tempo in the matchup, and counterspells are not a thing post-board anyways.

When playing creatures, first play creatures that you will miss less and let them waste removal into them, play Knights last and hope that they run out of removal gas. Use Shamans defensively: don't let them get mana if they lack any specific color, especially black or blue.

This is a very good analysis and supports a lot of what we've been saying for pages and pages. The tidbit to remember (especially in this meta) is that the DRS+blue decks have better individual cards than Maverick. For argument's sake, TNN, Pyro, Jace, Shardless Agent, etc are infinitely better than anything you'd play. Nevertheless, the opponent is entirely dependent upon hitting color permutations and playing cards on curve.

I disagree with your discussion of how to color-screw the DRS.dec player. I see the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you're mixing together too many archetypes and possibilities. Below is my streamlined checklist. We could talk about this at length (and some reading will likely disagree). Lots of experience led me to the following:
1. Assuming you're going in cold, hold them off blue. Blue is the glue that holds their lists together. You can deal with goyf or DRS alone. You will have a harder time dealing with U --> delver. You will have a significantly harder time if they have the chance to filter constantly with brainstorm/ponder. Probe is not a true filter and you're better off ignoring it could be cast for U since they'll usually take the damage to play it for free.
2. If you know what deck the opponent is playing, hold them off their "board changing" cards. Shardless does damage when it hits 3 mana. If I can hold them off G or BB, I consider myself ahead. Grixis Pyro decks start kicking my ass when they have non-blue cards.
3. On the draw against an aggressive DRS deck, T1 wasteland (followed by T2 wasteland if you have it) can literally end the game right there.
4. An early KotR should grab wastelands. You need to shoot down their duals. Don't pussyfoot around with grabbing fetchlands or combo pieces. An unopposed 3/3 Knight who kept them on a single basic is more intimidating than a 12/12 Knight who lets them keep 5 lands.
5. Thalia + wasteland wins. But assess your lines of play. If an early Thalia also impedes your own gameplan, you really need to be careful. You don't want GSZ, Decays, and STPs to be functionally impossible to cast.
6. Nearly all 4C DRS lists lack wastelands of their own. Go nuts.

@Snapcaster: This card is easily my achielle's heel. Whether it's UR delver, 4C drs, or Miracles -- I never get a good read on him sitting in hand. You could sandbag the surgical (statistically hard to do) or hold off on DRS who could eat the 'snapped card in response.

@Prelates: They do damage against DRS decks on X=1. BUG Control has a lot of valuable 2's and 3's.

[ET1]

This all seems to be issues of deck identification. This thread has a wealth of information about how to play/sideboard against various delver/shardless/4c midrange/non-miracles control decks, but I think the challenge with aspsnake's situation was identifying that his opponent was not playing a 4 color delver deck and was actually a 4 color control deck that happened to be testing out delvers. But yes making the distinction of what you're actually facing can at times be a challenge in legacy and is also crucially important as it will change the way you play against the deck.

Some cards that I feel are key indicators are:
basic lands
snapcaster
kolaghan's command
daze
bayou
spell snare
counterspell

[Megadeus]

If Snapcaster is an issue, an active Ooze keeps them off of deathrite mana, turns off Snapcaster, and shrinks goyf. Play more Scooze.

[aspsnake]

I disagree with your discussion of how to color-screw the DRS.dec player. I see the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you're mixing together too many archetypes and possibilities. Below is my streamlined checklist. We could talk about this at length (and some reading will likely disagree). Lots of experience led me to the following:
1. Assuming you're going in cold, hold them off blue. Blue is the glue that holds their lists together. You can deal with goyf or DRS alone. You will have a harder time dealing with U --> delver. You will have a significantly harder time if they have the chance to filter constantly with brainstorm/ponder. Probe is not a true filter and you're better off ignoring it could be cast for U since they'll usually take the damage to play it for free.
2. If you know what deck the opponent is playing, hold them off their "board changing" cards. Shardless does damage when it hits 3 mana. If I can hold them off G or BB, I consider myself ahead. Grixis Pyro decks start kicking my ass when they have non-blue cards.
3. On the draw against an aggressive DRS deck, T1 wasteland (followed by T2 wasteland if you have it) can literally end the game right there.
4. An early KotR should grab wastelands. You need to shoot down their duals. Don't pussyfoot around with grabbing fetchlands or combo pieces. An unopposed 3/3 Knight who kept them on a single basic is more intimidating than a 12/12 Knight who lets them keep 5 lands.
5. Thalia + wasteland wins. But assess your lines of play. If an early Thalia also impedes your own gameplan, you really need to be careful. You don't want GSZ, Decays, and STPs to be functionally impossible to cast.
6. Nearly all 4C DRS lists lack wastelands of their own. Go nuts.

Yeah, I was talking specifically about 4c. If they have an Island in play, you can't really strip them off blue unless you play Quarters for some reasons. So, going for other colours makes the trick. But I see that most 4c lists start rejecting basics, so Underground Sea is the best thing to go for - it doesn't allow filtering, as you said, and turns off all their removal (Push, Decay, Command).

[Warden]

I top 8'ed Mythic yesterday after a hiatus. The Japanese Rallier lists and several folks in the DnT thread really got me thinking.

Maverick // Position: Top 8

Creatures [27]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Renegade Rallier

Non-Creatures [11]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands [22]
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of War and Peace

***
Goldfishing (physical and with online decklists) let me see how to play my favorite legacy deck. I was confident in going vial for the current meta but couldn't figure out what the hell I should run in the flex spots. If I had a full set of ports I would have 100% went DnT with KotR. The SB felt like a solid catch-all for the room. I remembered kicking myself months ago for neglecting to respect matchups where a PWer wins the game, hence 2x Gideon. No Decays in the 75 because of mana concerns. What godfishing I did revealed how I'd usually be obliterating the opponent's resources, not stockpiling mana like my zenith-based lists.

I haven't played competitively since October. I got engaged in November. Life happens and suddenly we're in March. I was reluctant to make the journey, but my wonderful fiance encouraged me the night before to do something for myself. Dreary weather was a motivating factor (as I'd be indoors, I might as well scratch the magic itch).

R1 - Bye // W
Lucky me

R2 - Hank w/ Elves // L
Game 1 Hank unloads with a ridiculous glimpse chain turn 2 (about 5 or 6 elves come out and his hand is 7 when he passes). Turn 3 Hoof.
Game 2 I'm stuck on 1 land for half the game. I actually manage to survive for a while with his limited double nettle sentinel beatdown. My DRS holds back his DRS. I get a vial online and eventually assemble a board of my own. Before the crucial turn (deep into the game) I have: 2 lands, Vial on 3, 2 active Moms, 1 active DRS, Phyrexian Revoker on "Quirion Ranger" (nerfing the 1 on the other end of the table), 2 Canonists, 1 Prelate (x = 4, to nerf NO), 1 SFM (lost her equipment to Cabal Therapy earlier), and a Mirran Crusader. I am defensive the whole game. Hank eventually drops cradle and pays for GSZ (x=9) to Hoof me for like 47. Given what I was dealt, I think I did the best to lock him out of glimpse and Natural Order. I needed the earlier batterskull to race him.

R3 - Bryant Cook w/ Storm // W
Bryant and I are friendly. IMO he's one of the best players in the room. We shoot the breeze as we shuffle. I mention how I believe I'm 3-0 against him lifetime in competition. He is probably looking this up when he gets home. Anywho, I know what he's got. He has an idea I'm on GW something (usually Maverick). Game 1 I'm on a 7 card opener to his 6. Bryant leads with land -> ponder. I play carefully around any small chains he could assemble. Based on my notes I think I ghost quarter his sea (leading to his 1 swamp). Holding him off blue is big. He casts Duress. I drop Thalia at some point, which is big. Rallier comes out at some point and helps with mana denial.
Game 2 Bryant again mulligans to 6. I keep 7. He leads probe, volcanic, ponder. I play the denial plan. He sculpts a hand while I drop DRS into QPM. He keeps sculpting while an exalted-boosted QPM deals 3 a turn. I have Bryant going from 16 to 15 to 12. I fondly remember he had 2 Volcanic + 1 swamp in play. He casts burning wish for dark petition and passes the turn. Shit! I lucksack wasteland, which I chain into Rallier -> wasteland again. This leaves Bryant on 1 swamp. On the next turn I see Bryant chain spells. I pop QPM to nuke chrome mox before it can imprint a color. Bryant ultimately grapeshots for 8 (4 against creatures to clear the board, 4 to my dome). EOT I vial KotR into play. She beats him down. Bryant scoops soon thereafter, since he's staring at a swamp and spent his hand the turn earlier.

R4 - Paolo C w/ BUG Delver // W
He's a beast. I've never beat him in competition. One of the top performing players I know. If he reads this I hope he recognizes the respect I have for him.
Game 1 is a fast delver beatdown. He wastelands me to screw up my sequencing. 1x TNN in the second to last turn ensures inevitability. Typical 5 minute delver loss. 'Those are the bricks.
Game 2 Paolo misplays twice in the opening turns. We casually back up his first mistake (summ sickness on his DRS). I decided to stop play and call for the Judge on his second mistake (double land for turn). Paolo very understanding of the misplay and didn't seem to take offense. He announces ponder but drops delver from his hand. Quickly scoops that up and shows the actual ponder card. A dexterity issue I just document in my notes (revealing his hand to me). I waste him off cards so he can't really do much. I believe he pondered a few times the whole game. Shooting down DRS early + wastelands is a golden plan.
Game 3 is interesting. I waste his early trop. He has DRS on the table. He stabilizes with Sea, which leads to cantrips. Cantrips eventually find another trop IIRC. At some point I play Prelate and KotR after baiting a daze (which took Paolo back down to 1 dual in play). Paolo surprises me with Confidant, who starts gobbling up topdeck cards for Paolo. I continue to pressure the board and eventually path to exile his lone DRS. Meanwhile I'm sandbagging a persecution in my hand. TNN joins Confidant. Zealous Persecution end of turn breaks the game open in my favor. KotR keeps tutoring wastelands while little dorks nibble. Paolo saves time by scooping at 11 life because he's down to 1 dual land. Others watching this match ask why would I bother doing this and not just attack with a large KotR. My rationale is "I don't want Paolo to reach 3 mana (toxic D, liliana, etc)" --- I'd gladly take a few extra turns to ensure Paolo never gets back in this. Can't give BUG a chance back in the game.

R5 - Eli Kassis w/ BUG Delver // ID
*We agree to intentionally draw. That puts both of us at X-1-1 heading into the final round. We'll press our luck next round for win-and-in.

R6 - Hollywood w/ UB Landstill aka "the Hollywood special" // W
Game 1 I crack his standstill early to force in a SFM. My creatures are all met with answers. Then I hit a critical mass of threats he can't handle/counter. I see enough of his deck (basic island and swamps, mishra's factory, blue fetchlands, wastelands of his own, brainstorm, spell snare, fatal push, snapcasters, jace the mindsculptor) en route to a victory. I have an idea of what I should bring in.
Game 2 Micheal opens with 2 Nihil spellboms early. A key card is counterspell'ed. Toxic D wipes my table. He's got 2 factories under standstill. I scoop early (good call) to force game 3 with me starting.
Game 3 I finally see vial, which throws Michael off. He pops force of will - pitching spell pierce to prevent T1 vial. He jokingly scolds me for not informing him about being a vial Maverick build. We laugh. The game grinds on, growing increasingly tense. I'm in "I need to topdeck a threat" mode while looking at a hand of swords to plowshares. He drops engineered plague on humans. Meanwhile, Prelate (x=1) comes out. Prelate beats for 1 under plague. Council's Judgement is used to remove Plague (finally). I find a jitte and equip to prelate. Momentum. I think the same turn I equip jitte, Snapcaster flashes in mid-combat. I gain Jitte counters but lose my lone creature in a trade. Crap. Literally everything I play for 10 turns is useless (lands) or a creature who immediately gets countered or fatally pushed. I burn through 2 KotR this way. Very frustrating. Michael burns 2 wastelands on my 2 duals, sinking me down to 2 basics. It takes numerous turns to build back up to 4 mana. I windmill slam Gideon, who makes a 2/2 knight friend. Michael is frustrated he didn't see Gideon as a potential threat. He scoops after 2 turns of a jitte-holding 2/2 token + Gideon himself comes to play. Gideon won this stalemate.

I qualify for Top 8 as #7 seed.

Top 8 - Angelo w/ Eldrazi aggro // L
Eldrazi does Eldrazi things while my deck fails for produce threats. The best I could do both games is double wasteland. But I'm losing a war to Mimic, Reshaper, Endless One, and the 5/5 haste trampler. Mom and DRS were all I saw both games. Game 2 I have the potential to drop KotR but a Thought-Knot Seer rips him from my hand. It happens. The luck runs dry.

Overall I'm VERY pleased to face a literal murderer's row of competition in swiss. Hank, Bryant, Paolo, Eli, Hollywood is a by far the hardest road to a top 8 I ever had to deal with. After months away from the game, I'm glad I can still play off instincts and body reads. These 3 and 4 color decks are so goddamn greedy. Exploit those manabases!

***
Notes & Reflections

DRS is in every other matchup. Having your own is big. Although I wonder if Noble Hierarch + exalted stacks is better.

Phil from Thraben Academy is ahead of the curve with his analysis of equipment. I felt Batterskull was actually irrelevant all day. It's still in my list as a security blanket. Across all games I grabbed Batterskull 50% of the time but actually cast it like once or twice. Fire and Ice was the other weapon of choice and that thing is still a house. I think Phil is correct in saying the meta shifted away from Batterskull being perceived as "scary". It's just not the bee's knees of yesteryear. I still enjoy its upside. It should still be in the 75 somewhere. But maybe I follow through on his high praise of War and Peace. If I could go back in time, I'd actually go Jitte + Fire/Ice + Body/Mind. Pro-blue/green against all these DRS and TNN is real.

22 lands with Vial + 4 mana dorks (DRS today) was managable. Speaking of the manabase, Ghost Quarter was phenomenal. I actually want to have another.
I could see myself going down to 6 fetch in exchange for going up to 2 GQ. Alternatively, swapping a fetch for another Cavern of Souls wouldn't be a bad move either. Cavern broke open blue matchups. My only reservation is that Cavern does not pay for spells. It's terrific with any color creature (usually named on Human) but awful for WW stuff like Gideon.

Revoker was a last minute swap in place of Scryb Ranger. I think Scryb would have been the better call (why don't I completely net deck?). I wanted a flyer all day.

KotR (the darling of the deck) was phenomenal all day. Moving forward, I want to shift more towards Green and Taxes. As I write this, DnT has too many viable 3 drops (Flickerwisp, Crusader, Prelate, Recruiter, Thalia THC, Banisher Priest, Mangara) and I can't see how she fits into the deck as a 4x. She's certainly worth 4x.

Rallier was great as a 1x. I can see him possibly being a 2x if I built around it. Double wasteland situations is AMAZING. He also grabbed a countered vial in one game. So many possibilities. Hell, he could ramp you to 4 lands on turn 3 if there's a fetch in the grave. The important thing to point out is that Rallier is GW snapcaster mage. There's conditional upside, but he's more or less an underwhelming vanilla beater. You need to be able to trigger the revolt AND have decent targets. In an LD-focused Maverick list, he can be great. However, I had a bit of luck with him popping wastelands in succession. In DnT there's potential but I think they need to convert to ghost quarters to enable him more frequently.

Moving forward, I'd like to push further into Green and Taxes territory. I would run 4 Noble/DRS + 4 KotR in a white DnT shell. QPM and Teeg deserve inclusion in the 75. I see potential for Sylvan Library and Rallier, but the vision I have is Noble/KotR being played seamlessly as both are humans. DRS would muck up the manabase but he packs tremendous upside + is mana denial in DRS faceoffs. QPM is occasionally awkward to cast because he's not coming in off cavern. Teeg is equally awkward.

The room was BUG heavy (~50%). 3rd Mirran should have been run over 1 Prelate main. Prelate was solid though.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

[aspsnake]

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

If you want to be faster, play Vial Maverick.

Knight is the very reason our deck exists. It gives us a huge advantage against any fair creatures: tarmogoyfs, goblins, merfolks etc. and at the same time can wreck enemy's manabases, search Karakas, draw us cards from Canopy, find Cavern against counterbalance and he is just so much better than Rallier in our deck.

There is however a deck gaining popularity, which is basically D&T with green for Ralliers. They run Ghost Quarters in place of Rishadan Ports and aim to destroy opponents' manabase big time. This is completely another deck that has nothing to do with Maverick though.

[ChrisDissent]

There is however a deck gaining popularity, which is basically D&T with green for Ralliers. They run Ghost Quarters in place of Rishadan Ports and aim to destroy opponents' manabase big time. This is completely another deck that has nothing to do with Maverick though.

Any list you can share ? Or link ? I'm really interested about this new list. Thanks ;)

[DoomRabbit]

Had a pretty good run over the weekend at a small tournament in Brussels.
Here's the list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15088&d=291349&f=LE

Swiss: 2-1 vs BW Pox, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Rug Delver, 1-1 vs Aluren (G1 took 45 minutes!)
Top 8 (ranked 2nd): 2-0 vs Miracles, 0-2 vs Miracles (he went on to win)

Pretty happy with the result, especially going 2-1 vs Miracles, don't do that too often ;)

[aspsnake]

Any list you can share ? Or link ? I'm really interested about this new list. Thanks ;)

I saw it in D&T discussions ("Established Decks" subforum), somewhere on the last pages. Can't give a link as it hasn't won anything just yet as far as I know :)


Had a pretty good run over the weekend at a small tournament in Brussels.
Here's the list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15088&d=291349&f=LE

Swiss: 2-1 vs BW Pox, 2-0 vs Miracles, 2-0 vs Rug Delver, 1-1 vs Aluren (G1 took 45 minutes!)
Top 8 (ranked 2nd): 2-0 vs Miracles, 0-2 vs Miracles (he went on to win)

Pretty happy with the result, especially going 2-1 vs Miracles, don't do that too often ;)

Good job! Beating Miracles all day (almost) is really impressive! I decided to play SoL&S in sideboard too, looking at how well it worked for you :) Will cut Council's Judgement - will miss it probably, but it's just too good against Miracles, mirrors and D&T, which I face rather often lately. It probably works just fine vs some grindy black decks like Pox and a few BUG variations too.

[Warden]

Has anyone tested the straight up swap, Renegade Rallier for Knight of the Reliquary?

Tempo's much harder against 3 color decks and we already have the stoneforge mystic trump card over creature decks where you needed knight to be large.

The mana base would have to change to include more Horizon Canopies and fetches to help enable the Rallier more often, but other than that, the deck could remain the same, just faster.

Honestly, I would not replace KotR. She's the best thing in the list and is the one must answer creature. KotR beats down, can tutor lands, and synergizes with multiple sub-strategies.
Rallier is like a snapcaster mage, as he's quite conditional (see my previous post about this above). Not to mention Rallier is actually just a vanilla 3/2. I wouldn't trade my all-star attacker, who I consistently depend upon in combat. KotR also builds momentum in your favor the longer she's on the table. By contrast, Rallier is played for its revolt. You need to ensure his entrance is overwhelming, otherwise he's just not doing much. Because of this, I find him to be "good, but not great". 1x worked well for me. I can see the potential for 2x.

I agree with @aspsnake when he says "Knight is the very reason our deck exists." It's so true.

@DoomRabbit: Congrats! That's awesome. I'm curious what your best cards were (from your experience did anything shine throughout the day and/or overperform for you?).

[Luthiereisfun]

I like rallier a lot in the matchups like miracles where we need to apply pressure but not over extend. I also like that he provides an ability that no other card (talking most generic builds) can do which is bring a lost permanent back from the gy.

[Jakobian1010]

Been lurking too long with this one. I think you have a very interesting list.

Saving others the click:


I want to define the core strategy: Eldrazi Displacer abuse. 24 cards from white-eldrazi.dec and your list I'd build around:
2 Containment Priest
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 equipment of choice
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Swords to Plowshares

Cards from white-eldrazi.dec I'm up in the air with:
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia 2.0
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice

***
I think Containment Priest is necessary because it is deadly with Displacer. That duo ends fair creature-based matchups. Containment Priest is also a pain in the ass for Zenith or Vial decks to handle. I'll go out on a limb supporting Recruiter of the Guard. In your list, you're always wanting specific combo pieces (or just a straight SFM finisher). This creates a "holy shit" nightmare for the opponent. Recruiter is probably a 2x choice. Being flooded with them is no good. Having zero is not the best either.

What happened to Green? I didn't abandon this plan. I am sold on 4 Noble Hierarch + 3 Renegade Rallier + 1 Gaddock Teeg (especially if you run Recruiter, which acts as GSZ). For those keeping track at home, I'm at 24 core cards + 8 green things = 32 total. We're good for another 4 or 5 choices.

Thought-Knot Seer is hit-or-miss for me. It's a value play...but cannot be recruiter-tutored, sfm-tutored, or rally'ed back to life. He is great with Displacer. Probably fair to keep him at 2-3x. I'd consider 2 Copters and some bullets. I think Slvan Library may shift the deck to being too green. As for mana...I'd rather go 4x Wastelands + 2-3x Cavern of Souls as [colorless] sources. I've never liked Brushland. I can't do the math to figure out if Eldrazi-friendly lands are worthwhile. Maybe a ghost quarter if we're light on [colorless] producers.

EDIT: If you're not a fan of mother of runes or feel containment priest is iffy in the main -- I'd heavily consider revokers. They'd 100% be in the sb.



Regarding containment priest... Palace Jailer + Eldrazi Displacer is actually just better. It's a one-sided effect since they don't get the creatures back until they become the monarch, you can just flicker the palace jailer and take a creature every time you do so.

Pros/Cons: Palace Jailer costs 4 mana, priest only costs 2; Priest prevents you from using displacer to save your own dudes, Jailer does not. Jailer also generates card advantage because becoming the monarch is sweet, and it's usually difficult for your opponent to steal the throne from you.

[NEELEY]

I have 5-0 a couple leagues this last week. I've been trying to test a couple winter orb but haven't got them to resolve against miracles. I wanted a couple more Choke effects to help out vs miracles. My 60 is the same as it has been lately with sword of light and shadow over batterskull.

[Megadeus]

So you play like 2 Choke, 2 Orb?

[NEELEY]

So you play like 2 Choke, 2 Orb?

Correct. It wasn't on mtgtop8.com yet but found it on mtggoldfish.com

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/602843#online

[lavafrogg]

I like rallier a lot in the matchups like miracles where we need to apply pressure but not over extend. I also like that he provides an ability that no other card (talking most generic builds) can do which is bring a lost permanent back from the gy.

Rallier has a lot of really interesting applications and doesn't require us to savage our mana base, which can happen with knight, allowing us to hit larger GSZ numbers more consistently and to also abuse Canopy/Wasteland/Pridemage or to rebuy anything that gets sent to the yard(which is odd against miracles).

He would also play well with any looting effects i.e. Mask of memory off of stoneforge or potential Smugglers Copter action.

[DoomRabbit]

@DoomRabbit: Congrats! That's awesome. I'm curious what your best cards were (from your experience did anything shine throughout the day and/or overperform for you?).

Vs. Miracles
It was the first time I actually resolved Garruck vs Miracles, I knew he was good on paper but wow, if they don't have an answer it's just game over.
Surgical extraction is great, depending on what your board looks like, surgical swords or terminus, and you can really cripple them. Bonus points for surgicalling when they snap back the swords or when the miracle trigger goes on the stack.

Overall though I'm just really enjoying playing the deck, it's always a challenge, and has so many lines to consider, hard to get bored!

[Claymore]

What is it about Garruk that Miracles can't beat, just that he generates 2/2's every turn? Something stupid like Words of Wilding could work too, plus it can't be attacked by Snapcaster or Clique and you can't lose the game to Jace ultimate. Combine it with Sylvan Library for extra salt. Killable by Wear/Tear of course.

[Navsi]

What is it about Garruk that Miracles can't beat, just that he generates 2/2's every turn? Something stupid like Words of Wilding could work too, plus it can't be attacked by Snapcaster or Clique and you can't lose the game to Jace ultimate. Combine it with Sylvan Library for extra salt. Killable by Wear/Tear of course.

The only way Miracles can interact with planeswalkers is on the stack, other than with Council's Judgment (if they run it) or just killing you. Garruk also doesn't cost you your draw step so you can continue applying pressure elsewhere or stock up for when they eventually answer him.

[timmyod17]

The only way Miracles can interact with planeswalkers is on the stack, other than with Council's Judgment (if they run it) or just killing you. Garruk also doesn't cost you your draw step so you can continue applying pressure elsewhere or stock up for when they eventually answer him.

Or they just let it resolve, cast an end-step Vendilion Clique (or Entreat), then kill Garruk in the air on their turn and leave you with a four-mana 2/2 token.

[NEELEY]

Or they just let it resolve, cast an end-step Vendilion Clique (or Entreat), then kill Garruk in the air on their turn and leave you with a four-mana 2/2 token.

This deck does take the right sequencing, you don't jam a garruk or choke into a bunch of open mana. You have to strategize and pick the best spots to play your spells to beat miracles. Force them to interact with what you are trying to do until you finally run them out of answers, then they get desperate to find the answer and once they find it you have the cards saved in your hand to hopefully finish the game.

[aspsnake]

Or they just let it resolve, cast an end-step Vendilion Clique (or Entreat), then kill Garruk in the air on their turn and leave you with a four-mana 2/2 token.

There's indeed literally nothing we can do to lock them out of the game since the printing of Council's Judgement and Kozilek's Return. But if their hand is not amazing, Garruk can wreck them quite hard (and keep in mind that Clique is generally sided out vs Maverick - this is the moment we side our Garruk(s) in, Clique is a card meant to assist vs combo) - and if there's a "X=3+" Entreat incoming, we have practically already lost unless we have a setup mom/bw sword+knight lethal.

[timmyod17]

There's indeed literally nothing we can do to lock them out of the game since the printing of Council's Judgement and Kozilek's Return. But if their hand is not amazing, Garruk can wreck them quite hard (and keep in mind that Clique is generally sided out vs Maverick - this is the moment we side our Garruk(s) in, Clique is a card meant to assist vs combo) - and if there's a "X=3+" Entreat incoming, we have practically already lost unless we have a setup mom/bw sword+knight lethal.

All this talk about Garruk has me wondering: is he the best PW we've got against Miracles? Other decks? Trying to decide on my 75 for SCG Worcester next week.

I have gone back and forth between Garruk and Nahiri (and no PW in the 75). I've always liked the ability to return an equipment from the GY to play, an effect that seems more relevant these days overall with the number of BUG decks running 4x abrupt decay or 4c control decks with K-command. I also like that Nahiri can plus and then survive a subsequent attack from something like a TNN. I do like Garruk's ability to randomly kill a DRS, though.

Has anyone tested the new Nissa in any matchups?

Honestly, the factor that has tipped the balance in my choice recently has been the fact that Nahiri has only been printed in Commander and my Maverick deck is otherwise all foiled out where applicable :tongue:

[ET1]

All this talk about Garruk has me wondering: is he the best PW we've got against Miracles? Other decks? Trying to decide on my 75 for SCG Worcester next week.

I have gone back and forth between Garruk and Nahiri (and no PW in the 75). I've always liked the ability to return an equipment from the GY to play, an effect that seems more relevant these days overall with the number of BUG decks running 4x abrupt decay or 4c control decks with K-command. I also like that Nahiri can plus and then survive a subsequent attack from something like a TNN. I do like Garruk's ability to randomly kill a DRS, though.

Has anyone tested the new Nissa in any matchups?

Honestly, the factor that has tipped the balance in my choice recently has been the fact that Nahiri has only been printed in Commander and my Maverick deck is otherwise all foiled out where applicable :tongue:

I'm currently on garruk which i have not yet been able to draw against miracles, but I tested kaya for a while and the games where she came in to play were a cakewalk afterwards. I switched back because theoretically garruk is better and has more utility across match-ups. Nahiri and Nissa could both be interesting cards to test, but not a huge fan of the cmc. I know nic-fit has had success with nissa, but they also ramp much quicker.

[aspsnake]

All this talk about Garruk has me wondering: is he the best PW we've got against Miracles? Other decks? Trying to decide on my 75 for SCG Worcester next week.

I have gone back and forth between Garruk and Nahiri (and no PW in the 75). I've always liked the ability to return an equipment from the GY to play, an effect that seems more relevant these days overall with the number of BUG decks running 4x abrupt decay or 4c control decks with K-command. I also like that Nahiri can plus and then survive a subsequent attack from something like a TNN. I do like Garruk's ability to randomly kill a DRS, though.

Has anyone tested the new Nissa in any matchups?

Honestly, the factor that has tipped the balance in my choice recently has been the fact that Nahiri has only been printed in Commander and my Maverick deck is otherwise all foiled out where applicable :tongue:
Against Miracles, we want combat planeswalkers - and 2/2 generator is pretty sweet. What makes him so much better than others is the removal ability, which makes him useful in a wide variety of matchups, including infect. On his flipped side, he is very useful again, generating ideal Tarmogoyf blockers and tutoring us any creatures we need. Never used his Overrun ulti, but I'm sure that it has won games too. There's just no other combat planeswalker that generates 2/2s and would be a removal slot too for 4 mana.

[DoomRabbit]

I have used Nissa a little bit, and yes 5 is high, but her abilities are all really nice.
Untapping a cradle is ridiculous if you have something to do with the mana, other lands make great attacker/blockers
Cards back is nice
The ultimate is bonkers with a knight in play.
Great for really grindy games, not so good for anything requiring speed or stabilising a board.

Only played a few games with her though, so grain of salt, I've needed the sideboard slots for other things since then, but would definitely give her another shot.

[NEELEY]

Play garruk, it's flip abilities are all good as well. I have used the overrun ability multiple times and it just seems to win me games. Searching for creatures also helps win games. I don't think we would want nissa over garruk because we need garruk to kill things as well. I bring it in vs delver and am happy to have another answer to kill delver.

[Jimbrewersbro]

I might be too excited about new things, but could prowling serpopard have a place in the deck, at least against miracles? You still can't over commit but it seems like a nice tool.

[aspsnake]

I might be too excited about new things, but could prowling serpopard have a place in the deck, at least against miracles? You still can't over commit but it seems like a nice tool.
Just so you know - Miracles usually side out cbalances vs us. Why would you ever Zenith for it instead of a Knight?
Secondly, most of our threats that we really want to resolve (Zenith for Teeg, Choke, Garruk) are non-creature. Vs Miracles, you want as many "hard" slots as possible in sb, which have to be answered on the spot.

[timmyod17]

Just so you know - Miracles usually side out cbalances vs us. Why would you ever Zenith for it instead of a Knight?
Secondly, most of our threats that we really want to resolve (Zenith for Teeg, Choke, Garruk) are non-creature. Vs Miracles, you want as many "hard" slots as possible in sb, which have to be answered on the spot.

I agree. I want to like it, but I think this card is a trap. It doesn't help us against Terminus or provide any value when it ETBs.

[ricste88]

Planeswalkers are good against miracle. I tried out many of them and I found out that the best planeswalker to tun are Garruk Relentless and Sorin, lord of Innistrad. The problem of miracle, now, is that they have implemented a new card advantave engine: predict. And it's become really difficult to find a spot when they are out of answers. Chains of mephistopheles are a non-bo with sylvan library. Maybe splash with blue and put a couple of Leovold? Has anyone tried it? Even Khaya ghost assassin in side could be a solution, but is slow and is useless with all the other MU (I tested her a lot)

[aspsnake]

Planeswalkers are good against miracle. I tried out many of them and I found out that the best planeswalker to tun are Garruk Relentless and Sorin, lord of Innistrad. The problem of miracle, now, is that they have implemented a new card advantave engine: predict. And it's become really difficult to find a spot when they are out of answers. Chains of mephistopheles are a non-bo with sylvan library. Maybe splash with blue and put a couple of Leovold? Has anyone tried it? Even Khaya ghost assassin in side could be a solution, but is slow and is useless with all the other MU (I tested her a lot)
I think, Choke is better in Maverick than Chains. If they don't have blue mana available, they can't draw as well ;)

As for Predict, it becomes rather clunky without Top. Pack your Needles, and you are good to go!

[lavafrogg]

I think, Choke is better in Maverick than Chains. If they don't have blue mana available, they can't draw as well ;)

As for Predict, it becomes rather clunky without Top. Pack your Needles, and you are good to go!

Maverick doesn't really have a plan to beat Miracles and Terminus, true or false?

Miracles is what killed Maverick originally, what changed?

[Luthiereisfun]

Against miracles cards like choke and gaddock teeg can give them a headache. Teeg especially if we have mom to protect him. Abrupt decay is good for hitting CB or tops in response to fetches etc..we also have cards like sylvan library and garruk relentless that are great for grinding out long games and are hard for them to answer once resolved. We also usually pack sword of fire and ice which can usually give us a good clock and CA.

I think why Miracles is still so tough is just how consistent they can be. They have fantastic card filtering/selection, pseudo CA with top/CB, and they have Terminus which in one card sets us way back usually at least being a 2 for 1. They more or less are great at grinding us out to few cards in hand with not a lot of pressure on board. Then they untap and make 1 million flying angels.

It's winnable but quite tricky. You have to not over extend and choose your openings.

[lavafrogg]

Against miracles cards like choke and gaddock teeg can give them a headache. Teeg especially if we have mom to protect him. Abrupt decay is good for hitting CB or tops in response to fetches etc..we also have cards like sylvan library and garruk relentless that are great for grinding out long games and are hard for them to answer once resolved. We also usually pack sword of fire and ice which can usually give us a good clock and CA.

I think why Miracles is still so tough is just how consistent they can be. They have fantastic card filtering/selection, pseudo CA with top/CB, and they have Terminus which in one card sets us way back usually at least being a 2 for 1. They more or less are great at grinding us out to few cards in hand with not a lot of pressure on board. Then they untap and make 1 million flying angels.

It's winnable but quite tricky. You have to not over extend and choose your openings.

So no?

I really think any effort in most non-blue threads, should be "how can we beat the great blue menace" with Miracles being at the forefront of the discussion. I <3 Maverick and am super happy that the thread is active again but unless the Miracles question has been answered.... why bother with other matchups?

[aspsnake]

Maverick doesn't really have a plan to beat Miracles and Terminus, true or false?

Miracles is what killed Maverick originally, what changed?

I disagree that Miracles killed Maverick: at some point, it was a wide variety of things that pushed Maverick to almost non-existance. It was DRS, True-name and Terminus together that gave us hard times, and then Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise that did the "this is Sparta!" final knockdown. However, interestingly, when decks started to forget about existance of Wasteland-enabled midrange non-blue decks (except few D&T and stuff), and Delver on its way down due to Miracles (except maybe BUG), many decks started to grind Miracles with very greedy manabases, and that's where we come back, sometimes with some new toys. Legacy always goes circles: with D&T on the rise and combo decks pushed back by the greedy blue Leovold decks, we have a place in the meta again.

Having an unfavored matchup against Miracles doesn't make our deck unplayable. We should be just aware of it, and ready ;)

[timmyod17]

So no?

I really think any effort in most non-blue threads, should be "how can we beat the great blue menace" with Miracles being at the forefront of the discussion. I <3 Maverick and am super happy that the thread is active again but unless the Miracles question has been answered.... why bother with other matchups?

We should bother with other matchups because not everyone plays Miracles. At the last 4 or 5 legacy tournaments that I've played with 50+ people, I've only even been matched up against Miracles in the top 8 a few times and never in the Swiss. It's maybe 10% of the overall field [disclaimer: I only play paper magic, no idea what the online metagame is like], even if it's overrepresented in top 8's. And our deck happens to be really quite good against the other ~90% of the field (barring the few weird people who bring random stuff like Belcher). And because of the fact that not many people play Maverick, nobody comes prepared for it. Maverick just destroys most other fair decks and we have random silver bullets that can hose unfair decks.

My personal thought is if I want to maximize my match win %, then I essentially write off Miracles as a loss and try to beat everyone else. I'm OK with that matchup having a 25% win rate if I can win 75% or more of the rest of my matchups. And I do :)

[Megadeus]

I think the key is packing cards that are incidentally good against miracles but have uses in other match ups. Needle, Choke, and Planeswalkers all have a variety of other uses. Needle against other combo, choke against other blue decks, and Walkers against BUg and other midrangey decks. Having flexible answers is really key in my opinion. I can beat the average miracle player generally speaking, but the really good ones are near impossible to beat 2/3 games

[Thunderknight]

Over the weekend I played at the Quest for Power event at MTGFirst and I was featured on camera.
I went 0-3 drop but I tried out something new for once and
Trying it out again this weekend at SCG Worchesrer.

Collected company.

I know that 4 mana spells are suppose to win the game on their own in order for them to be legacy payable. But I've been testing extensively with this card and it is has been a wrecking blowout.

You will mostly hit two creatures in a set if you are running 25-26 creatures. It gets non-green creatures like mom and Thalia. It can be used relatively to a board wipe if you have the mana to (which for us it isn't hard).

I know that I'm on the minority on this card, but at least before Dismissing it entirely, try it out just once.

[DoomRabbit]

I'm a big fan of collected company, although I've never tried it in Maverick, could be fun I'll give it a go.
What are you replacing with it? GSZ?

[Thunderknight]

I'm a big fan of collected company, although I've never tried it in Maverick, could be fun I'll give it a go.
What are you replacing with it? GSZ?

You can shave some GSZ. Right now I'm on 3 GSZ/2 CC.
It makes the matches where you feel like you are losing board state to be able come back with more threats.

[Luthiereisfun]

Over the weekend I played at the Quest for Power event at MTGFirst and I was featured on camera.
I went 0-3 drop but I tried out something new for once and
Trying it out again this weekend at SCG Worchesrer.

Collected company.

I know that 4 mana spells are suppose to win the game on their own in order for them to be legacy payable. But I've been testing extensively with this card and it is has been a wrecking blowout.

You will mostly hit two creatures in a set if you are running 25-26 creatures. It gets non-green creatures like mom and Thalia. It can be used relatively to a board wipe if you have the mana to (which for us it isn't hard).

I know that I'm on the minority on this card, but at least before Dismissing it entirely, try it out just once.

When CoCo came out I tried and it and was an advocate while most people thought I was silly. I don't like that you have to warp the deck to make CoCo better but there are so many viable creatures for Maverick I wouldn't consider it making the deck strictly worse going creature heavy.

There were times it was an absolute blowout grabbing EOT something like a KOTR and stoneforge mystic to ride to victory the next turn. It often was quite good actually, and when it's really good man is it amazing. I ended up dropping it however because for the few times you whiff or just grab a creature that doesn't make an impact that card felt very underwhelming.

People always say a 4CMC should win you the game in legacy. Sometimes CoCo did win you the game. Sometimes it was literally a 4 mana do nothing. Not often, but often enough that it wasn't worth it for me. It's a risk you have to take with the card.

[Thunderknight]

When CoCo came out I tried and it and was an advocate while most people thought I was silly. I don't like that you have to warp the deck to make CoCo better but there are so many viable creatures for Maverick I wouldn't consider it making the deck strictly worse going creature heavy.



There were times it was an absolute blowout grabbing EOT something like a KOTR and stoneforge mystic to ride to victory the next turn. It often was quite good actually, and when it's really good man is it amazing. I ended up dropping it however because for the few times you whiff or just grab a creature that doesn't make an impact that card felt very underwhelming.

People always say a 4CMC should win you the game in legacy. Sometimes CoCo did win you the game. Sometimes it was literally a 4 mana do nothing. Not often, but often enough that it wasn't worth it for me. It's a risk you have to take with the card.

I can understand that lineof thinking. However I don't think collevted company was ever meant to override GSZ. In fact I would say that CC supports GSZ. The ability to EOT ripRR into whatever is in your GY for example is huge. Double Knight is huge. Scavenge ooze with cradle is huge.
I also believe that you don't need to go creature heavy to maximize collected company. The reason why it is that way for modern is because selection for tutoring creatures is smaller than legacy.

Vs Miracles: its a very grindy game. I know that Thrun has been doing a lot of wins for that matchup along with new Nissa. Nissa ends the game faster than Garruk because of her +1. Nothing feels good when they are force to terminus away a 5/5 land. Her ultimate helps us out CA them as well, especially if there is a tracker on the battlefield.

[aspsnake]

Over the weekend I played at the Quest for Power event at MTGFirst and I was featured on camera.
I went 0-3 drop but I tried out something new for once and
Trying it out again this weekend at SCG Worchesrer.

Collected company.

I know that 4 mana spells are suppose to win the game on their own in order for them to be legacy payable. But I've been testing extensively with this card and it is has been a wrecking blowout.

You will mostly hit two creatures in a set if you are running 25-26 creatures. It gets non-green creatures like mom and Thalia. It can be used relatively to a board wipe if you have the mana to (which for us it isn't hard).

I know that I'm on the minority on this card, but at least before Dismissing it entirely, try it out just once.

Don't you think that CC makes certain hate pieces, such as Gaddock Teeg/Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest, too harsh on us?
In every other regard, it seems like a great choice in the current grindy meta!

Curious to see the list you piloted and reasons why you went 0-3 and against what.

[Warden]

Maverick doesn't really have a plan to beat Miracles and Terminus, true or false?

Miracles is what killed Maverick originally, what changed?

I generally agree with this synopsis. I think some of the "newer" (using the term loosely) Plainswalkers give Maverick better odds. I still think the matchup is terribly in their favor. Suprised nobody is talking about Gideon. Used him the other weekend in vial-maverick and felt he made the control matchup much better. Gideon has an aggressive clock and worst-case you can drop 2/2 knights.

The other route to go against Miracles is a lockdown. Sanctum Prelate has been 'meh'....she usually baits a counterspell or immediate removal spell. However, she isn't locking Miracles out of the game like I hope she would. The lockdown is X=1, X=3, and Teeg, which is just too magicalchristmasland for me to ever whip up. I've had some success rocking Armageddon, which is what I just suggested to the DnT thread.

[Luthiereisfun]

Don't you think that CC makes certain hate pieces, such as Gaddock Teeg/Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest, too harsh on us?
In every other regard, it seems like a great choice in the current grindy meta!

Curious to see the list you piloted and reasons why you went 0-3 and against what.

Thinking about how the meta has gotten quite grindy...would punishing Maverick warrant taking a look at again? I was trying to think of a punishing list in my head that would have a light black splash to be able to have some black sb cards vs combo.

I like the idea of punishing fire being able to deal with planeswalkers something I think our deck isn't always best to combat.

[Thunderknight]

Don't you think that CC makes certain hate pieces, such as Gaddock Teeg/Grafdigger's Cage/Containment Priest, too harsh on us?
In every other regard, it seems like a great choice in the current grindy meta!

Curious to see the list you piloted and reasons why you went 0-3 and against what.


The same hate peieces also affect GSZ, so it doesnt really change how it would be different for CC.

I peformed like shyt. But heres the list that I pilot,

3 DRS
1 Noble Hirerach
3 Mom
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4. Little Thalia
1 Scrub Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasli Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reqiary
1 Renergade Railler
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thrun the Last Troll

4 STPs
3 GSZ
2 Collected Company
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sophie

22 Lands

Lost to Food Chain, Miracles on camera, and Oops all Spells

[aspsnake]

Thinking about how the meta has gotten quite grindy...would punishing Maverick warrant taking a look at again? I was trying to think of a punishing list in my head that would have a light black splash to be able to have some black sb cards vs combo.

I like the idea of punishing fire being able to deal with planeswalkers something I think our deck isn't always best to combat.

It really depends on your meta, I guess :p

Give it a try, and be sure to tell us how did it go! ;

[Luthiereisfun]

Okay so we try to slam down new Gideon against miracles and then hope they never find councils judgement /s

Okay maybe like 3/4 sarcasm

[Navsi]

Okay so we try to slam down new Gideon against miracles and then hope they never find councils judgement /s

Okay maybe like 3/4 sarcasm

They'll just kill him with mentor/entreat after they take control of the game.

[Megadeus]

Card doesn't seem that good to me.

[Luthiereisfun]

They'll just kill him with mentor/entreat after they take control of the game.

Shhhh quit being realistic, join me in magic Christmas land.

[haganbmj]

I think the key is packing cards that are incidentally good against miracles but have uses in other match ups. Needle, Choke, and Planeswalkers all have a variety of other uses. Needle against other combo, choke against other blue decks, and Walkers against BUg and other midrangey decks. Having flexible answers is really key in my opinion. I can beat the average miracle player generally speaking, but the really good ones are near impossible to beat 2/3 games

Agree entirely. There's enough incidental hate for miracles that you don't need to pack narrow stuff.

[lavafrogg]

Agree entirely. There's enough incidental hate for miracles that you don't need to pack narrow stuff.

You guys are drunk.

Miracles is the reason people don't play Maverick. More specifically terminus is the reason people don't play miracles. BUG decks are beatable with DRS but we have no real answer to Terminus.

Before terminus hard control decks were scarce because mass removal usually cost 4. All aggro decks has to do was keep the control player off four mana to win. Delver decks could do the same with daze/stifle.

An instant speed sweeper for 1 mana no questions asked, killed Maverick. It is also rediculus to expect to dodge the best/most played deck in the format.

[Chatto]

you guys are drunk. (...)
an instant speed sweeper for 1 mana no questions asked, killed maverick. It is also rediculus to expect to dodge the best/most played deck in the format.

ftfy

[haganbmj]

You guys are drunk.

Who said anything about dodging miracles or about maverick being a dead deck?
The topic was incidental hate and not sacrificing slots in your sideboard specifically for one matchup.

[lavafrogg]

Who said anything about dodging miracles or about maverick being a dead deck?
The topic was incidental hate and not sacrificing slots in your sideboard specifically for one matchup.

The topic has been Miracles hate for two pages. My comment is in response to people who think they should only pack incidental hate against a) the best deck in the format b) the deck that ruined maverick and c) the most played deck in the format all of which happen to be the same deck.

[TMagpie]

The topic has been Miracles hate for two pages. My comment is in response to people who think they should only pack incidental hate against a) the best deck in the format b) the deck that ruined maverick and c) the most played deck in the format all of which happen to be the same deck.


Maybe I am off the mark, so apologies for calling you out on this--but you don't seem to have any idea what happens in the miracles/maverick matchup.

[Megadeus]

What specific hate for just miracles do you suggest though? There not much that I can think of that exists. Geddon is probably the only thing. And I lost after casting Geddon not too long ago.

[Luthiereisfun]

What specific hate for just miracles do you suggest though? There not much that I can think of that exists. Geddon is probably the only thing. And I lost after casting Geddon not too long ago.

I was trying to think of this earlier. I think more fringe sb cards like Armageddon is one of them. Yes you can bring it in some other MU but miracles is the only one that comes to mind that I really would want to bring it in against.

[TMagpie]

I was trying to think of this earlier. I think more fringe sb cards like Armageddon is one of them. Yes you can bring it in some other MU but miracles is the only one that comes to mind that I really would want to bring it in against.

There are some very good niche cards that really puts pressure on miracles. Everything from Thrun + Karakas to a cloudpost transformational sideboard. But the real issue is that very few decks run maindeck sweepers plus lots of spot removal, as such, they hit maverick on an archetypal axis.

miracles leans on Terminus, card advantage, and snapcaster Mage to beat fair decks. If it draws any two of those then they most likely win. Circumvent the wrong one (ie the one they don't draw) then you die.

It's really that simple.

[Luthiereisfun]

There are some very good niche cards that really puts pressure on miracles. Everything from Thrun + Karakas to a cloudpost transformational sideboard. But the real issue is that very few decks run maindeck sweepers plus lots of spot removal, as such, they hit maverick on an archetypal axis.

miracles leans on Terminus, card advantage, and snapcaster Mage to beat fair decks. If it draws any two of those then they most likely win. Circumvent the wrong one (ie the one they don't draw) then you die.

It's really that simple.

That's interesting. I have never seen the cloud post sb. That would be neat to look at.

I completely agree with you. To add to it they have so much card filtering/selection that it's almost inevitable they find their key pieces. I don't think we're fast enough to overwhelm them early and steal wins. But I don't think we really can keep up with them long term either.

I have found that if the miracles player has a well tuned list, and plays very tight it feels pretty hopeless almost no matter what. I know this isn't news to anyone in here but it's the way it goes.

[Megadeus]

Yeah even when I've got walkers, needles, chokes and such it's still not easy to beat a good miracles player because their wrath only costs one mana

[MysteryE]

Hi, everyone! I am new to the thread, and to Maverick. I am normally a Nic Fit player..I think we can look at different cards to combat miracles.

Our first card I think gaddock teeg anti none creature spells costing 4 and x costing can't be cast, with Mother on board we can delay them for a bit while we beat face with other creaters equipped with swords//Jitte etc. and if we get Karakas we can protect him even better.
Next I think our sideboard can use things like Gideon avenger of zendikar or Garruk relentless a combat walker is pretty strong against this deck.
a # of thoughtseize I run 3 in my sideboard atm...
Lost Legacy a card I don't think anyone has talked about. I thought about running 2 in the board because you can essentially get rid of terminus or some other threat.
Surgical Extraction if they terminus us once we can try to take all copies of that card like force, jace something that is relevant.
sigarda, host of herons in the main//board can get by Moat and has hex proof the perk here is she is GSZ'able
Choke was mentioned and Armageddon, but what about Boil if you have a DRS in play make red...instant speed blow up all islands...
another interesting card Giant Solifuge 4/1 trample haste and shroud could be used to put players on the clock.

There are other cards but I can't think of them right now I hope this helped with some ideas to combat Miracles better. Please let me know your thoughts on the cards listed above. Thanks

[Luthiereisfun]

Hi, everyone! I am new to the thread, and to Maverick. I am normally a Nic Fit player..I think we can look at different cards to combat miracles.

Our first card I think gaddock teeg anti none creature spells costing 4 and x costing can't be cast, with Mother on board we can delay them for a bit while we beat face with other creaters equipped with swords//Jitte etc. and if we get Karakas we can protect him even better.
Next I think our sideboard can use things like Gideon avenger of zendikar or Garruk relentless a combat walker is pretty strong against this deck.
a # of thoughtseize I run 3 in my sideboard atm...
Lost Legacy a card I don't think anyone has talked about. I thought about running 2 in the board because you can essentially get rid of terminus or some other threat.
Surgical Extraction if they terminus us once we can try to take all copies of that card like force, jace something that is relevant.
sigarda, host of herons in the main//board can get by Moat and has hex proof the perk here is she is GSZ'able
Choke was mentioned and Armageddon, but what about Boil if you have a DRS in play make red...instant speed blow up all islands...
another interesting card Giant Solifuge 4/1 trample haste and shroud could be used to put players on the clock.

There are other cards but I can't think of them right now I hope this helped with some ideas to combat Miracles better. Please let me know your thoughts on the cards listed above. Thanks

Gaddock teeg with mom used to be the dream against miracles but with councils judgement isn't as much of a lock as it used to be. Still good though. Combat planeswalkers if we can get them to stick are also very good/hard for them to interact with.

I like the idea of lost legacy. My biggest concern is the mana cost. With DRS I think it would be feasible for sure but double black isn't always the easiest to hit with our mana base.

I don't think giant soilfuge is what we want at all. With snapcaster/mentor it could quite easily get chump blocked. At 4 mana I rather play Thrun or one of the mentioned combat walkers.

I play Nic Fit as well and find it quite fun! Welcome and I think you'll really like Maverick.

[MysteryE]

Gaddock teeg with mom used to be the dream against miracles but with councils judgement isn't as much of a lock as it used to be. Still good though. Combat planeswalkers if we can get them to stick are also very good/hard for them to interact with.

I like the idea of lost legacy. My biggest concern is the mana cost. With DRS I think it would be feasible for sure but double black isn't always the easiest to hit with our mana base.

I don't think giant soilfuge is what we want at all. With snapcaster/mentor it could quite easily get chump blocked. At 4 mana I rather play Thrun or one of the mentioned combat walkers.

I play Nic Fit as well and find it quite fun! Welcome and I think you'll really like Maverick.

Thank you @Luthiereisfun
I see your point on the Giant soilfuge...what are your thoughts on Prowling Serpopard "1GG" for a 4/3 can't be countered, and cannot counter creature spells.

Yeah I made a version of Thomas Herzog's Maverick list with a few changed cards in the sideboard. I also added Ashiok to the main a little something unexpected wih a DRS I will try to get blue and get Ashiok on board Its only for testing purposes so Ill know more after tomorrow when I test a few planeswalkers in the mainboard as a 61 card deck.

[Luthiereisfun]

Thank you @Luthiereisfun
I see your point on the Giant soilfuge...what are your thoughts on Prowling Serpopard "1GG" for a 4/3 can't be countered, and cannot counter creature spells.

Yeah I made a version of Thomas Herzog's Maverick list with a few changed cards in the sideboard. I also added Ashiok to the main a little something unexpected wih a DRS I will try to get blue and get Ashiok on board Its only for testing purposes so Ill know more after tomorrow when I test a few planeswalkers in the mainboard as a 61 card deck.

Nice! I believe there was some good discussion about the cat snake a few pages back. Generally something like cavern of souls is just better. The cat snake is just too vulnerable. In a matchup like miracles where you really want creatures to resolve (CB/Top can keep up with us for days) the cat snake can easily be taken care of.

I would say in other matchups where you want creatures to resolve but when faced against more traditional counterspell suit we usually try to overload them. Often baiting their counterspells/removal with a creature that's good but not over the top is common. Then when they're low on cards/resources we drop our KOTR/GSZ etc..

[lavafrogg]

I just finished this post and as I realize that I was slightly annoyed at the beginning, I feel like the post is helpful in our current state. I have been getting a lot of responses to the notion that Maverick can beat Terminus in its current form which is followed by a post that started this response. Her is the post and the response...


Maybe I am off the mark, so apologies for calling you out on this--but you don't seem to have any idea what happens in the miracles/maverick matchup.

I really am not sure where you are coming from, but seeing how you apologized in advance I will assume that you just jumped into the thread for funsies. Ill catch you up with some posts that happened after you decided to join us. Starting with an intelligent response to my premise.


What specific hate for just miracles do you suggest though? There not much that I can think of that exists. Geddon is probably the only thing. And I lost after casting Geddon not too long ago.

This response here shows that people do not know what we can do against miracles. Which is in contradiction to the response from a page ago that read:


Agree entirely. There's enough incidental hate for miracles that you don't need to pack narrow stuff.

So now continuing to Maverick players trying to discuss ways to beat Miracles:


I was trying to think of this earlier. I think more fringe sb cards like Armageddon is one of them. Yes you can bring it in some other MU but miracles is the only one that comes to mind that I really would want to bring it in against.

This is a good comment about possible sideboard cards. Which is followed by this post:


There are some very good niche cards that really puts pressure on miracles. Everything from Thrun + Karakas to a cloudpost transformational sideboard. But the real issue is that very few decks run maindeck sweepers plus lots of spot removal, as such, they hit maverick on an archetypal axis.

miracles leans on Terminus, card advantage, and snapcaster Mage to beat fair decks. If it draws any two of those then they most likely win. Circumvent the wrong one (ie the one they don't draw) then you die.

It's really that simple.

This response has no meaning whatsoever, you start by listing sideboard plans that no-one has ever done i.e. cloudpost sideboard, include a popular Maverick beater pre-Monastery Mentor, Thrun, and then say that there is really nothing we can do if they draw the cards that they need to draw and considering that they have the most consistent deck in the format, they will most likely draw the answers that they need. Note: if you try and google to find a Maverick list with a Cloud-post board, this thread is the only mention I could find.

This is followed by confusion about the cloud-post sideboard and then more agreement that the Miracles match-up is terrible.


That's interesting. I have never seen the cloud post sb. That would be neat to look at.

I completely agree with you. To add to it they have so much card filtering/selection that it's almost inevitable they find their key pieces. I don't think we're fast enough to overwhelm them early and steal wins. But I don't think we really can keep up with them long term either.

I have found that if the miracles player has a well tuned list, and plays very tight it feels pretty hopeless almost no matter what. I know this isn't news to anyone in here but it's the way it goes.

Here is Megadeus stating the exact point that I am trying to make which is that we cannot currently beat Terminus.


Yeah even when I've got walkers, needles, chokes and such it's still not easy to beat a good miracles player because their wrath only costs one mana

And finally a post of someone who is new to Maverick that wants to make suggestions about what we can do to beat Miracles:


Hi, everyone! I am new to the thread, and to Maverick. I am normally a Nic Fit player..I think we can look at different cards to combat miracles.

Our first card I think gaddock teeg anti none creature spells costing 4 and x costing can't be cast, with Mother on board we can delay them for a bit while we beat face with other creaters equipped with swords//Jitte etc. and if we get Karakas we can protect him even better.
Next I think our sideboard can use things like Gideon avenger of zendikar or Garruk relentless a combat walker is pretty strong against this deck.
a # of thoughtseize I run 3 in my sideboard atm...
Lost Legacy a card I don't think anyone has talked about. I thought about running 2 in the board because you can essentially get rid of terminus or some other threat.
Surgical Extraction if they terminus us once we can try to take all copies of that card like force, jace something that is relevant.
sigarda, host of herons in the main//board can get by Moat and has hex proof the perk here is she is GSZ'able
Choke was mentioned and Armageddon, but what about Boil if you have a DRS in play make red...instant speed blow up all islands...
another interesting card Giant Solifuge 4/1 trample haste and shroud could be used to put players on the clock.

There are other cards but I can't think of them right now I hope this helped with some ideas to combat Miracles better. Please let me know your thoughts on the cards listed above. Thanks

I actually really enjoy this post as it has several ideas on how to improve one of Mavericks worst match-ups.

MysteryE: your ideas come down to:

a)planeswalkers/go over the top
b)heavier black splash
c)mass land destruction
d)untargetable creatures

obviously Gaddock Teeg plus Mother of Ruins is line number 1 but that hasn't been safe since the printing of Counsel's Judgement.

to respond:

a) this is one of my favorite options as Elspeth/Garruk are quite a clock and Miracles has an issue with planeswalkers, the issue here is Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia really slow down our mana development
b) most people only play a light black splash for Decay/Thoughtsieze so BB is difficult, also relying on discard+surgical is iffy at best
c) cataclysm is a popular play by Death and Taxes as they can keep multiple creatures, I have been a fan of Winter Orb as they cannot Top every turn with an orb in play, obviously better with mana dorks in play.
d) also another good plan to attack their Terminus since their Swords will be blanks, good but hasn't proven to work every time.

To discuss how Maverick/Miracles matches play out:

Maverick plays early creatures, Miracles cantrips and sets up counter-top.
Maverick attacks for some damage, maybe gets an active equipment, Miracles casts terminus.
Maverick try's to play around the counter-top lock, while also fighting through Swords-Snapcaster/Real Countermagic/more Terminus, Miracles finds their win condition and wins.

The best cards I have found to help disrupt this cycle:

1) Sylvan Library: allowing us to keep up with their card quality and to draw a few extra cards a game is huge
2) Quasali Pridemage: this guy dodges Swords/Terminus, can be brought back from the graveyard with Witness/Rallier or Sword of Light and Shadow if played. Kills Counterbalance, makes it so they cannot fetch with a top in play and kills RiP after board if applicable.
3) Teeg+Karakas+Equipment or Thalia+Karakas+Equipment these work if counterbalance is off the table so you can replay your 2 drop.
4) Winter Orb: as stated before, they cannot top or cantrip easily, which delays the Mentor/Top Combo/Jace/Entreant
5) Flash Creatures and Equipment. Scryb Ranger and Aven Mindcencor right after a Terminus or EoT can really mess with their math, especially with an Equipment in play.

"Original" builds of Maverick from back in the day seem to line up pretty well against modern day Miracles, this list is from 2011:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

This has a majority of angles to attack the miracles deck:

Mainboard Sylvan Library and Elspeth.
5 Flash Creatures.
Multiple Pridemages(and another after boarding)
Karakas + Teeg/Thrun

Obviously the list doesn't play Thalia, which hurts combo matchup's but helps you get Thrun and Elspeth on the board in a reasonable amount of time. I feel like this is a reasonable place to start discussion at this point. Here is the list slightly updated:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

The swords are because Teeg + Light and Shadow should beat Miracles if you can get it, and Feast and Famine is great against all of the BGx decks that Legacy players love(and also, kinda against combo), Jitte is against creature decks.

I think we have TNN issues, but I do not see how they can beat Mom+Knight with the wasteland pressure they will be under in addition to Elspeth and flyers + equipment. We also have a lessened reliance on the graveyard with Heirarch instead of Shaman and Elspeth main. They can keep Knight small but Elspeth can still jump him for a bunch.

[MysteryE]

I just finished this post and as I realize that I was slightly annoyed at the beginning, I feel like the post is helpful in our current state. I have been getting a lot of responses to the notion that Maverick can beat Terminus in its current form which is followed by a post that started this response. Her is the post and the response...



I really am not sure where you are coming from, but seeing how you apologized in advance I will assume that you just jumped into the thread for funsies. Ill catch you up with some posts that happened after you decided to join us. Starting with an intelligent response to my premise.



This response here shows that people do not know what we can do against miracles. Which is in contradiction to the response from a page ago that read:



So now continuing to Maverick players trying to discuss ways to beat Miracles:



This is a good comment about possible sideboard cards. Which is followed by this post:



This response has no meaning whatsoever, you start by listing sideboard plans that no-one has ever done i.e. cloudpost sideboard, include a popular Maverick beater pre-Monastery Mentor, Thrun, and then say that there is really nothing we can do if they draw the cards that they need to draw and considering that they have the most consistent deck in the format, they will most likely draw the answers that they need. Note: if you try and google to find a Maverick list with a Cloud-post board, this thread is the only mention I could find.

This is followed by confusion about the cloud-post sideboard and then more agreement that the Miracles match-up is terrible.



Here is Megadeus stating the exact point that I am trying to make which is that we cannot currently beat Terminus.



And finally a post of someone who is new to Maverick that wants to make suggestions about what we can do to beat Miracles:



I actually really enjoy this post as it has several ideas on how to improve one of Mavericks worst match-ups.

MysteryE: your ideas come down to:

a)planeswalkers/go over the top
b)heavier black splash
c)mass land destruction
d)untargetable creatures

obviously Gaddock Teeg plus Mother of Ruins is line number 1 but that hasn't been safe since the printing of Counsel's Judgement.

to respond:

a) this is one of my favorite options as Elspeth/Garruk are quite a clock and Miracles has an issue with planeswalkers, the issue here is Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia really slow down our mana development
b) most people only play a light black splash for Decay/Thoughtsieze so BB is difficult, also relying on discard+surgical is iffy at best
c) cataclysm is a popular play by Death and Taxes as they can keep multiple creatures, I have been a fan of Winter Orb as they cannot Top every turn with an orb in play, obviously better with mana dorks in play.
d) also another good plan to attack their Terminus since their Swords will be blanks, good but hasn't proven to work every time.

To discuss how Maverick/Miracles matches play out:

Maverick plays early creatures, Miracles cantrips and sets up counter-top.
Maverick attacks for some damage, maybe gets an active equipment, Miracles casts terminus.
Maverick try's to play around the counter-top lock, while also fighting through Swords-Snapcaster/Real Countermagic/more Terminus, Miracles finds their win condition and wins.

The best cards I have found to help disrupt this cycle:

1) Sylvan Library: allowing us to keep up with their card quality and to draw a few extra cards a game is huge
2) Quasali Pridemage: this guy dodges Swords/Terminus, can be brought back from the graveyard with Witness/Rallier or Sword of Light and Shadow if played. Kills Counterbalance, makes it so they cannot fetch with a top in play and kills RiP after board if applicable.
3) Teeg+Karakas+Equipment or Thalia+Karakas+Equipment these work if counterbalance is off the table so you can replay your 2 drop.
4) Winter Orb: as stated before, they cannot top or cantrip easily, which delays the Mentor/Top Combo/Jace/Entreant
5) Flash Creatures and Equipment. Scryb Ranger and Aven Mindcencor right after a Terminus or EoT can really mess with their math, especially with an Equipment in play.

"Original" builds of Maverick from back in the day seem to line up pretty well against modern day Miracles, this list is from 2011:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

This has a majority of angles to attack the miracles deck:

Mainboard Sylvan Library and Elspeth.
5 Flash Creatures.
Multiple Pridemages(and another after boarding)
Karakas + Teeg/Thrun

Obviously the list doesn't play Thalia, which hurts combo matchup's but helps you get Thrun and Elspeth on the board in a reasonable amount of time. I feel like this is a reasonable place to start discussion at this point. Here is the list slightly updated:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

The swords are because Teeg + Light and Shadow should beat Miracles if you can get it, and Feast and Famine is great against all of the BGx decks that Legacy players love(and also, kinda against combo), Jitte is against creature decks.

I think we have TNN issues, but I do not see how they can beat Mom+Knight with the wasteland pressure they will be under in addition to Elspeth and flyers + equipment. We also have a lessened reliance on the graveyard with Heirarch instead of Shaman and Elspeth main. They can keep Knight small but Elspeth can still jump him for a bunch.

I do like the list but is it better to drop the Thalia package and go for more of heavy flash in style? I also don't have the nobles at the moment or the elspeths have you play tested this list and if so has it been working?? I heard that the new Nissa vital force is pretty strong getting back permanents from the graveyard is good. Also is Sword of Feast and Famine better than having fire and ice? Sorry to ask so many questions its just coming from nic fit I'm not used to using equipment as a means to get ahead, furthermore what about using Cavern?

my current list


Creatures 25
1 dryad arbor
4 mother of runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
2 stoneforge mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 scavenging ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the reliquary

Spells 8
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Green sun's zenith

enchantments 2
2 Sylvan Library

artifacts 3
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalker 1
1 Garruk, Relentless

Lands 23
2 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 gaea's cradle
1 karakas
1 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
4 verdant catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 wasteland

Sideboard 15
2 path to exile
2 ethersworn canonist
3 thoughtseize
2 faerie macabre
1 choke
1 scavenging ooze
2 zealous persecution
1 Gaddock teeg
1 tormod's crypt


Please let me know your thoughts on the list

[nicoleptik]

One should NEVER publish a Maverick list without Scryb Ranger. Seriously, this innocent looking little green flying guy has won me so many matches. Untaping mom, kotr or drs for a second or third activation is insane

[Skizz]

i would cut the 3rd Pridemage for a Scrybranger (best utility creature in this deck)

also your Land count is incorrect. 22 not 23 --- so total 61. maaaaybe cut 1 sylvan library to get to the minimum of 60.

/e: i would exchange the 2 path to exile for 2 Abrupt Decays (it can hit more targets, also cant be dazed/FoW which is very good in the delver matchups)

[MysteryE]

i would cut the 3rd Pridemage for a Scrybranger (best utility creature in this deck)

also your Land count is incorrect. 22 not 23 --- so total 61. maaaaybe cut 1 sylvan library to get to the minimum of 60.

/e: i would exchange the 2 path to exile for 2 Abrupt Decays

I have 23 counting the dryad, listed in the creature section.

I have been testing LavaFrogg's "Flash Maverick" decklist it has indeed been working I still have a rough time grinding with miracles, but it def is pointing in an interesting direction. I will probably test it tonight at FNM Legacy at one of the local stores to get a better idea on play style, I don't have 4 nobles so 4 birds of paradise will have to do for now...and I agree with the sword choices considering the flash in after feast and famines trigger. I do like some of the other things the deck does I been testing on MTGO. It is missing the 1 sylvan library. well thats all I have for now Good night for now. and thanks for this list LavaFrogg let me know if you make any changes there is an SCG this weekend I might take this to it just need to fine tune it.

[aspsnake]

I see why the Miracles topic is being brought up again and again.

However, if you want to beat Miracles, I think Doomrabbit's list (he shared it some pages ago) is nearly best you could do. Really, all you need is a Sylvan Library, 2 Chokes, Surgical Extraction, Garruk, B/W sword in your 75, extra Gaddock Teegs in sb and some luck.

[Skizz]

just 1 more thought about the flash-deck you are testing MysteryE... dread of night will kill half of this deck because of the many x/1`s :cry:

[Claymore]

Only Mother and Thalia/Aven Mindcensor (7 or 8 out of 23-25), unless I'm missing something. Not a massive impact. Plus it runs plenty of enchantment hate with Pridemade, GSZ and board cards.

[Stuart]

Last night I bought the rest of the shit I needed for the deck and played Maverick. Here was my starting list:

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Thalia 1.0
2 Thalia 2.0
1 Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Abrupt Decay
4 GSZ
4 StP
1 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Stage

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 Loam
1 K Grip
1 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical
1 Needle
1 Bog
1 Maze

Went 2-2, beating Miracles and UB Hedron Crab Mill, losing to BUG TNN and Miracles.

The maindeck felt strong, though I might go -1 StP and +1 Decay. However, I wanted some advice from you guys on the board:
- The one time I drew Nissa, she got stuck in my hand by a Teeg. I was thinking of switching her for either a 2nd Choke or a Painful Truths. Any tips?
- Almost every list I've seen has 2 Zealous Persecution in the board. What is it usually there for? Elves, DnT, and True Name are the decks that occur to me, but does it have applications outside of matchups with lots of X/1 creatures?

[lavafrogg]

I see why the Miracles topic is being brought up again and again.

However, if you want to beat Miracles, I think Doomrabbit's list (he shared it some pages ago) is nearly best you could do. Really, all you need is a Sylvan Library, 2 Chokes, Surgical Extraction, Garruk, B/W sword in your 75, extra Gaddock Teegs in sb and some luck.

[Deleted Flames]. Be nice - Julian23

Look at the finishes Maverick has had recently. You cannot beat miracles with a stock list and a little extra help. Maverick is a massive underdog and as soon as you understand this maybe we can try and improve the deck.

[NEELEY]

Last night I bought the rest of the shit I needed for the deck and played Maverick. Here was my starting list:

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Thalia 1.0
2 Thalia 2.0
1 Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Abrupt Decay
4 GSZ
4 StP
1 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Stage

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 Loam
1 K Grip
1 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical
1 Needle
1 Bog
1 Maze

Went 2-2, beating Miracles and UB Hedron Crab Mill, losing to BUG TNN and Miracles.

The maindeck felt strong, though I might go -1 StP and +1 Decay. However, I wanted some advice from you guys on the board:
- The one time I drew Nissa, she got stuck in my hand by a Teeg. I was thinking of switching her for either a 2nd Choke or a Painful Truths. Any tips?
- Almost every list I've seen has 2 Zealous Persecution in the board. What is it usually there for? Elves, DnT, and True Name are the decks that occur to me, but does it have applications outside of matchups with lots of X/1 creatures?

Everyone post their decklist and wants advice. I rarely ever play Maverick on MTGO and when I do I do very well. I feel my maindeck is great and what everyone should be playing. IMO you shouldn't be playing new Thalia and shouldn't cut swords to plowshare. ZP is mainly for TNN but also needed against elves and d and t. I advise to run 2 and not cut it.


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/DNEELEY

[Luthiereisfun]

Everyone post their decklist and wants advice. I rarely ever play Maverick on MTGO and when I do I do very well. I feel my maindeck is great and what everyone should be playing. IMO you shouldn't be playing new Thalia and shouldn't cut swords to plowshare. ZP is mainly for TNN but also needed against elves and d and t. I advise to run 2 and not cut it.


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/DNEELEY

I like your list a lot. MD looks quite lean with no BS. How was orb? Besides miracles what matchups are you brining it in?

[Thunderknight]

Anyone else going to SCG Worchester?

[Stuart]

Cheers Neeley! Your list looks great. I think I'll try
- In the mainboard, -2 THC, +1 Original Thalia, +1 Scooze.
- In the sideboard, -1 Scooze, -1 Nissa, +2 Zealous Persecution.

[MysteryE]

Anyone else going to SCG Worchester?

I will go, if I get this deck smoothed out.

[NEELEY]

I like your list a lot. MD looks quite lean with no BS. How was orb? Besides miracles what matchups are you brining it in?

The orbs are more for testing and are strictly for miracles, but have utility against the loam decks. The orbs have been eating counters or wear//tear but that's okay when you have chokes and sylvan libraries as well, maybe a 2nd dryad arbor would be a good choice in one of those slots to fuel your equipments, seems like a 2nd one would be backbreaking at times for them.

My main deck is very lean and don't normally change anything and am very happy with it.

[NEELEY]

Cheers Neeley! Your list looks great. I think I'll try
- In the mainboard, -2 THC, +1 Original Thalia, +1 Scooze.
- In the sideboard, -1 Scooze, -1 Nissa, +2 Zealous Persecution.

Let me know what you think. If you have any questions on a match up or 2 let me know and I'll give my sb strategy or play strategy

[TMagpie]

I just finished this post and as I realize that I was slightly annoyed at the beginning, I feel like the post is helpful in our current state. I have been getting a lot of responses to the notion that Maverick can beat Terminus in its current form which is followed by a post that started this response. Her is the post and the response...



I really am not sure where you are coming from, but seeing how you apologized in advance I will assume that you just jumped into the thread for funsies. Ill catch you up with some posts that happened after you decided to join us. Starting with an intelligent response to my premise.



This response here shows that people do not know what we can do against miracles. Which is in contradiction to the response from a page ago that read:



So now continuing to Maverick players trying to discuss ways to beat Miracles:



This is a good comment about possible sideboard cards. Which is followed by this post:



This response has no meaning whatsoever, you start by listing sideboard plans that no-one has ever done i.e. cloudpost sideboard, include a popular Maverick beater pre-Monastery Mentor, Thrun, and then say that there is really nothing we can do if they draw the cards that they need to draw and considering that they have the most consistent deck in the format, they will most likely draw the answers that they need. Note: if you try and google to find a Maverick list with a Cloud-post board, this thread is the only mention I could find.

This is followed by confusion about the cloud-post sideboard and then more agreement that the Miracles match-up is terrible.



Here is Megadeus stating the exact point that I am trying to make which is that we cannot currently beat Terminus.



And finally a post of someone who is new to Maverick that wants to make suggestions about what we can do to beat Miracles:



I actually really enjoy this post as it has several ideas on how to improve one of Mavericks worst match-ups.

MysteryE: your ideas come down to:

a)planeswalkers/go over the top
b)heavier black splash
c)mass land destruction
d)untargetable creatures

obviously Gaddock Teeg plus Mother of Ruins is line number 1 but that hasn't been safe since the printing of Counsel's Judgement.

to respond:

a) this is one of my favorite options as Elspeth/Garruk are quite a clock and Miracles has an issue with planeswalkers, the issue here is Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia really slow down our mana development
b) most people only play a light black splash for Decay/Thoughtsieze so BB is difficult, also relying on discard+surgical is iffy at best
c) cataclysm is a popular play by Death and Taxes as they can keep multiple creatures, I have been a fan of Winter Orb as they cannot Top every turn with an orb in play, obviously better with mana dorks in play.
d) also another good plan to attack their Terminus since their Swords will be blanks, good but hasn't proven to work every time.

To discuss how Maverick/Miracles matches play out:

Maverick plays early creatures, Miracles cantrips and sets up counter-top.
Maverick attacks for some damage, maybe gets an active equipment, Miracles casts terminus.
Maverick try's to play around the counter-top lock, while also fighting through Swords-Snapcaster/Real Countermagic/more Terminus, Miracles finds their win condition and wins.

The best cards I have found to help disrupt this cycle:

1) Sylvan Library: allowing us to keep up with their card quality and to draw a few extra cards a game is huge
2) Quasali Pridemage: this guy dodges Swords/Terminus, can be brought back from the graveyard with Witness/Rallier or Sword of Light and Shadow if played. Kills Counterbalance, makes it so they cannot fetch with a top in play and kills RiP after board if applicable.
3) Teeg+Karakas+Equipment or Thalia+Karakas+Equipment these work if counterbalance is off the table so you can replay your 2 drop.
4) Winter Orb: as stated before, they cannot top or cantrip easily, which delays the Mentor/Top Combo/Jace/Entreant
5) Flash Creatures and Equipment. Scryb Ranger and Aven Mindcencor right after a Terminus or EoT can really mess with their math, especially with an Equipment in play.

"Original" builds of Maverick from back in the day seem to line up pretty well against modern day Miracles, this list is from 2011:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

This has a majority of angles to attack the miracles deck:

Mainboard Sylvan Library and Elspeth.
5 Flash Creatures.
Multiple Pridemages(and another after boarding)
Karakas + Teeg/Thrun

Obviously the list doesn't play Thalia, which hurts combo matchup's but helps you get Thrun and Elspeth on the board in a reasonable amount of time. I feel like this is a reasonable place to start discussion at this point. Here is the list slightly updated:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

The swords are because Teeg + Light and Shadow should beat Miracles if you can get it, and Feast and Famine is great against all of the BGx decks that Legacy players love(and also, kinda against combo), Jitte is against creature decks.

I think we have TNN issues, but I do not see how they can beat Mom+Knight with the wasteland pressure they will be under in addition to Elspeth and flyers + equipment. We also have a lessened reliance on the graveyard with Heirarch instead of Shaman and Elspeth main. They can keep Knight small but Elspeth can still jump him for a bunch.

Once again. I apologize ahead of time. But you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

If you're suggestion against Miracles is to cut Thalia's, add 3 drops, and add more exalted creatures to die to Terminus--then you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about and are simply trying to save face.

I can tell you that a cloudpost strategy works against Miracles--I've tested it. You games against absolutely everyone else goes into the toilet because of it, but it does work. For much the same reason Show and Tell decks that just slam 3-4 Boseiju against Miracles also works.

Here is the problem with your analysis--you are so damn fixated on playing around Terminus that you don't seem to understand that Terminus is NOT the problem with the Miracles matchup in the least bit. Terminus does only one thing--it clears the board. In a best of three most Miracles players brings extra into the matchup from Pyroclasm, to Engineered Explosives, all the way to Supreme Verdict and Kozilek's Return. I can promise you that just because you add 4 more low power, slow clock flash creatures to your list you have not "solved" a damn thing about their sweeper package.

Second problem--the main form of card advantage that Miracles can lean on the most is Snapcaster Mage. Specifically its ability to double up as either extra Wear/Tears or extra Swords to Plowshares depending on the game state. The best way we have of fighting this is through Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in combination with Mother of Runes. You cutting Thalia means they have full flexibility to just recur removal without losing the ability to still afford to spin the top since you're unable to tax their mana.

So not only are you weak to their sweepers, your list is also weak to their spot removal. But it even gets worse the longer you look at your suggestions on how to beat Miracles. Noble Heirarch to force you to overextend? 2 Elspeth's and a Thrun to ensure you will never beat combo decks while still losing to Monastery Mentor? 7 sideboard slots for Miracles so you can side out 4 Plows and... that's about it--good luck dying to turn 3 mentor since you don't even bring Decays.

Its literally a mess from its core idea all the way to its implementation.

Once again, apologies if it sounds rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about right now and it seems like you have not actually played the Match in a long long time outside of durdling versus yourself on cockratice or beating the crap out of the local new guy who built Miracles for the first time.

[lavafrogg]

Once again. I apologize ahead of time. But you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

If you're suggestion against Miracles is to cut Thalia's, add 3 drops, and add more exalted creatures to die to Terminus--then you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about and are simply trying to save face.

I can tell you that a cloudpost strategy works against Miracles--I've tested it. You games against absolutely everyone else goes into the toilet because of it, but it does work. For much the same reason Show and Tell decks that just slam 3-4 Boseiju against Miracles also works.

Here is the problem with your analysis--you are so damn fixated on playing around Terminus that you don't seem to understand that Terminus is NOT the problem with the Miracles matchup in the least bit. Terminus does only one thing--it clears the board. In a best of three most Miracles players brings extra into the matchup from Pyroclasm, to Engineered Explosives, all the way to Supreme Verdict and Kozilek's Return. I can promise you that just because you add 4 more low power, slow clock flash creatures to your list you have not "solved" a damn thing about their sweeper package.

Second problem--the main form of card advantage that Miracles can lean on the most is Snapcaster Mage. Specifically its ability to double up as either extra Wear/Tears or extra Swords to Plowshares depending on the game state. The best way we have of fighting this is through Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in combination with Mother of Runes. You cutting Thalia means they have full flexibility to just recur removal without losing the ability to still afford to spin the top since you're unable to tax their mana.

So not only are you weak to their sweepers, your list is also weak to their spot removal. But it even gets worse the longer you look at your suggestions on how to beat Miracles. Noble Heirarch to force you to overextend? 2 Elspeth's and a Thrun to ensure you will never beat combo decks while still losing to Monastery Mentor? 7 sideboard slots for Miracles so you can side out 4 Plows and... that's about it--good luck dying to turn 3 mentor since you don't even bring Decays.

Its literally a mess from its core idea all the way to its implementation.

Once again, apologies if it sounds rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about right now and it seems like you have not actually played the Match in a long long time outside of durdling versus yourself on cockratice or beating the crap out of the local new guy who built Miracles for the first time.

Did you read the post?

Have you read the last few pages?

Do you still have any idea what I am trying to say?

I clearly stated how I "think" maverick-miracles matches play out, acknowledging the difficulty of fighting through swords-snapcaster, I even included elspeth and thrun, which are great against both wear-tear and swords to plowshares.

I clearly posted a list from 2011 with slight updates to begin discussion, which I also stated.

I even said that the list was missing Thalia's, which hurts the combo matchup.

You have repeated much of what I have already stated in my apparent ongoing crusade to try and beat miracles with GWx/GB decks.

Please, let me know what you think we can do to fight miracles, as this has been the topic of discussion. Once again, I have found some strategies that have been successful.

1) Sylvan Library
2) Pridemage + Recursion (BW Sword)
3) legendary creature + Karakas.... teeg/thrun.... teeg/mom
4) winter orb/Phyrexian revoker
5) flash creatures + equipment

Also, in looking at DNEELYs list, he small black splash for Decay/zealous is perfect for the current meta.

What do you think can help? Obvioulsy no one has a consistent way to beat a good miracles player so I am open to all suggestions.

[TMagpie]

Did you read the post?

Have you read the last few pages?

Do you still have any idea what I am trying to say?

I clearly stated how I "think" maverick-miracles matches play out, acknowledging the difficulty of fighting through swords-snapcaster, I even included elspeth and thrun, which are great against both wear-tear and swords to plowshares.

I clearly posted a list from 2011 with slight updates to begin discussion, which I also stated.

I even said that the list was missing Thalia's, which hurts the combo matchup.

You have repeated much of what I have already stated in my apparent ongoing crusade to try and beat miracles with GWx/GB decks.

Please, let me know what you think we can do to fight miracles, as this has been the topic of discussion. Once again, I have found some strategies that have been successful.

1) Sylvan Library
2) Pridemage + Recursion (BW Sword)
3) legendary creature + Karakas.... teeg/thrun.... teeg/mom
4) winter orb/Phyrexian revoker
5) flash creatures + equipment

Also, in looking at DNEELYs list, he small black splash for Decay/zealous is perfect for the current meta.

What do you think can help? Obvioulsy no one has a consistent way to beat a good miracles player so I am open to all suggestions.

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

[lavafrogg]

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

[Deleted Flames]. Be nice - Julian23

Before you flash your degree in Mathematics please answer my question from the last post. What do you think we should do? Where do you think Maverick has options to advance in the current meta?

Also, you can't group decks to get percentages better than Miracles, especially when Storm and Sneak and Show have completely different angles of attack and hate cards.

I am simply stating that we need a good and effective plan to fight the most popular deck in Legacy. According you your data Mirickes accounts for 13% of your chosen data pool, which is the largest percentage for one single deck.

Also, storm and sneak will always be negative matchups, we are playing GW creatures. If you want to beat combo, play Delver.

[TMagpie]

Okay Capitain Statistics.

Before you flash your degree in Mathematics please answer my question from the last post. What do you think we should do? Where do you think Maverick has options to advance in the current meta?

Also, you can't group decks to get percentages better than Miracles, especially when Storm and Sneak and Show have completely different angles of attack and hate cards.

I am simply stating that we need a good and effective plan to fight the most popular deck in Legacy. According you your data Mirickes accounts for 13% of your chosen data pool, which is the largest percentage for one single deck.

Also, storm and sneak will always be negative matchups, we are playing GW creatures. If you want to beat combo, play Delver.

Both Sneak and Show as well as Storm require the same cards; being discard, Thalia, Teeg, and Revokers. Hence why you can stack rank them. The primary difference being that Deathrite Shaman is also useful against Past in Flames decks (usually storm lists lean on this card) while Knight/Karakas is useful against Sneak and Show decks. Those variances are maindeck cards and hence don't affect our sideboard choices--which is why you can stack them in the same lists when it comes to card choices in our sideboard. You'd know this if you played the deck.

As for what I think we should do--I think that we should maximize overall winrate and not focus on how to beat one specific deck. If the only goal you have is to beat Miracles then just play MUD, or Cloudpost, or Eldrazi.

Other observation--different variations of each of the Show and Tell as well as Storm decks have varying degrees of favorability for Maverick. Sneak and Show Maverick is super favored against, while a more Omniscience focused list is almost unwinnable. Ants is actually favored for Maverick past turn 3 while TES is much harder to beat since its much faster than ANTS. Its similar to how UB Reanimator is very good for Maverick, but BR reanimator is very coinflippy.

The same thing happens with Miracles. The legends build of Miracles, for example, has a higher amount of non-basics and hence gets trumped by Thalia/Wasteland shenanigans a lot. But the Predict lists can lean more heavily on their basics and have to really be fought around keeping Teeg alive as opposed to a tempo strategy. Mentor lists are great in that Umezawa's Jitte is actually useful both game 1 and game 2, allowing you a stronger dependence on Stoneforge Mystic and flash creatures. Unlike the entreat lists that are slower and aims to grind more, those lists are much weaker to Walkers and Thrun strategies since they are slower and allows Maverick to still be in striking distance of winning the game should they use fatter threats.

This means that the % on mtgtop8 for miracles is not an accurate tally of it, since the different lists are amalgamated into each other when each lists requires a very different playstyle and card selection to beat. Its much better to have incedental hate for Miracles, an already bad matchup, to try to get free wins while just leaning on maximizing your wins on other matchups in order to increase your overall chances at making it to the top 8 of an event.

[aspsnake]

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

You are referring not to the metagame, but to the top8 of the metagame, the winning decks. However, these numbers have little to do with the percentage of the whole decks in the two days. Keep in mind that Miracles have currently the highest winrate around - which means that e.g. new players are quite inclined to try it out.

Another thing you're a bit missing is that you won't meet your average decks, you will meet some random decks and have more chances of meeting Miracles. I prefer to be ready when metagame calls to it.

[lavafrogg]

Both Sneak and Show as well as Storm require the same cards; being discard, Thalia, Teeg, and Revokers. Hence why you can stack rank them. The primary difference being that Deathrite Shaman is also useful against Past in Flames decks (usually storm lists lean on this card) while Knight/Karakas is useful against Sneak and Show decks. Those variances are maindeck cards and hence don't affect our sideboard choices--which is why you can stack them in the same lists when it comes to card choices in our sideboard. You'd know this if you played the deck.

As for what I think we should do--I think that we should maximize overall winrate and not focus on how to beat one specific deck. If the only goal you have is to beat Miracles then just play MUD, or Cloudpost, or Eldrazi.

Other observation--different variations of each of the Show and Tell as well as Storm decks have varying degrees of favorability for Maverick. Sneak and Show Maverick is super favored against, while a more Omniscience focused list is almost unwinnable. Ants is actually favored for Maverick past turn 3 while TES is much harder to beat since its much faster than ANTS. Its similar to how UB Reanimator is very good for Maverick, but BR reanimator is very coinflippy.

The same thing happens with Miracles. The legends build of Miracles, for example, has a higher amount of non-basics and hence gets trumped by Thalia/Wasteland shenanigans a lot. But the Predict lists can lean more heavily on their basics and have to really be fought around keeping Teeg alive as opposed to a tempo strategy. Mentor lists are great in that Umezawa's Jitte is actually useful both game 1 and game 2, allowing you a stronger dependence on Stoneforge Mystic and flash creatures. Unlike the entreat lists that are slower and aims to grind more, those lists are much weaker to Walkers and Thrun strategies since they are slower and allows Maverick to still be in striking distance of winning the game should they use fatter threats.

This means that the % on mtgtop8 for miracles is not an accurate tally of it, since the different lists are amalgamated into each other when each lists requires a very different playstyle and card selection to beat. Its much better to have incedental hate for Miracles, an already bad matchup, to try to get free wins while just leaning on maximizing your wins on other matchups in order to increase your overall chances at making it to the top 8 of an event.

I will be ignoring most of the nonsense that you put in this post, as I did find a small piece of response that can be saveable.

In your ramble, you mention Phyrexian Revoker, which is a card that Maverick has not adopted as main deckable, but is played in Death and Taxes to great success.

Do you think that this is a card we should be playing more of as a way to better interact with Counter Top/planeswakers/equipment or so you feel that Pridemage fills the slot in GW creature decks?

Also, just so you clearly know the premise of my post: I believe that Maverick, and green based creature decks in general i.e. Junk/Rock/Jund/Deadguy/Eva/whatever, all need to improve their Miracles matchup considerably to start the journey to tier 1. What can we do to improve our matchup against the best deck in the format?

[Luthiereisfun]

I will be ignoring most of the nonsense that you put in this post, as I did find a small piece of response that can be saveable.

In your ramble, you mention Phyrexian Revoker, which is a card that Maverick has not adopted as main deckable, but is played in Death and Taxes to great success.

Do you think that this is a card we should be playing more of as a way to better interact with Counter Top/planeswakers/equipment or so you feel that Pridemage fills the slot in GW creature decks?

Also, just so you clearly know the premise of my post: I believe that Maverick, and green based creature decks in general i.e. Junk/Rock/Jund/Deadguy/Eva/whatever, all need to improve their Miracles matchup considerably to start the journey to tier 1. What can we do to improve our matchup against the best deck in the format?

To be honest is there really anything we can be doing that will drastically change the miracles MU?

I think the point of others is that to try and pack so many cards against miracles you ultimately weaken the deck against the overall field which doesn't solve anything. To add to that..I don't think adding things like Thrun, an armageddon and some extra planeswalkers will really help the matchup THAT much. They do help though but I don't think they swing it in our favor.

In my opinion we are weak to miracles because most of their interaction if not all (counter spells/spot removal/sweeper) all interacts with what our deck is about...creatures.

We can dillute our creature suite with things like planeswalkers etc.. but the consistency of Miracles is still too good. A good pilot can keep up with us and stabilize usually.

The matchup is not unwinnable. I think there are good things we can use to combat miracles. And to clarify I am not against using some planeswalkers/armageddon/winter orbs to try and deal with that specific MU. But those cards only go so far and trying to jam even more of them starts to feel like diminishing returns where we are just weakening the deck.

Don't get me wrong. If there is some list of Maverick out there that can stay potent against a lot of the field but swing the Miracles MU in our favor I would be all about it. But I feel like every deck has it's limitations. If you're going to play Maverick you should know the MU and have a game plan but simply put Miracles will not be easy and you will not be favored. I just feel that, that is the reality of things.

I love Maverick and it will always be one of if not my favorite decks. If it could get into a spot where it was considered Tier 1 I would love that.

[Megadeus]

I've played Revoker in basically every style deck I've ever played. It is what it is

[Emurian]

To be honest is there really anything we can be doing that will drastically change the miracles MU?

Beforehand, I am not a Maverick player, but I did face Miracles plenty of times with my DnT deck so I am hoping to provide some insight from that perspective.

I guess the answer is no, if there was a GW or B answer that is bonkers versus Miracles and would translate into: Resolve to win the game, it would have been found most likely by another Legacy player that runs those colours.

#1 There is a general consensus amongst players in multiple threads on the source that Planeswalkers is one of the weak points for miracles. With the argument that miracles has a rough time removing one once it resolves. [Councils judgement, or flashcreatures]

Now at the DnT thread people are sold with the BFZ Gideon, which replaced the Elspeth which you used to see in older lists. Elf players include Nissa Vital force [most even 1 copy mainboard], whereas they opted for flip Garruk before that if they had to go for a planeswalker.

I understand that Maverick doesn't ramp as fast as Elves, and that your own Thalia's can backfire sometimes to play said planeswalker [Happens to my own Gideon every now and then.] I still think Nissa is reachable in terms of mana when playing a game out versus miracles. I also think Nissa will be better then the Gideon for Maverick. The reasons, A: Faster clock, B: Gideon in DnT is a backup for decks that pack -1-1 hate, something which Maverick has less issues with. C: Recurring in Maverick seems better to me then the 4/4 swing that Gideon offers.

#2 I wil honestly admit that I read the last 3 pages before posting this, from what I read, none is adressing the difference between the GSZ Maverick build and the Vial build. I guess that the vial version might have a higher chance to win. [Then again I feel there is a consensus in this thread that GSZ Maverick is better then the Vial due to consistency?] Mostly due to Vial slipping in your creatures under their CB.

#3 IMO if you want to dedicate more SB slots to Miracles, and you want to have a card that has a wide usage in matchups then go for more Pithing Needles. Its better then Phyrexian Revoker to shut down their SDT or JTMS as its harder to remove. Peedle also has TONS of use in other matches aside Miracles, thus it feels less like a dead card in your SB if your not facing Miracles.

I do not wish to sum up things that others have said so already to keep the post short and constructive with my personal insight.

#4 That said, I see people here summing up things like. X chokes, a Planeswalker, AD's, Teeg etc. How much cards do you guys in general board in/out in the matchup? I TRY to limit myself to boarding up to 5 cards when playing Elves and Dnt. My reasoning for this: even if you look for interaction with your opponent because its a bad MU, it shouldn't mean that you need to dillute your own deck so much to the point that its core strategy is starting to waver. [The only exception to this for me is when facing ANT with Elves -.-]

#5 Maybe you guys want to evaluate first how many cards your willing to bring in versus the matchup? [make a top 5 to bring in] Naming 10 cards that make an impact on the MU as possible SB cards is fine, but I feel after summing them up you need to be selective which ones are gonna make it, while at the same time keeping in mind that said cards need to have [preferably] a wide application of use versus the Meta allround.

To be honest I also find it hard to offer advice here compared to the DnT section mainly because Maverick has such a flexible shell, meaning that the lists here differ far more from one another then the DnT ones. Lists that include Vial, Thalia's, Sylvan Library, Teeg, AD as MB will most likely have a small advantage vs Miracles over the generic GSZ version list. I don't think that this discussion will lead to a streamlined Maverick list thats allround.

Maybe focus on making a streamlined list with main opponent Miracles in mind [vial, thalia's], and then see how much that strays from the current builds. Maybe there is something to be gained from that.

[TMagpie]

I will be ignoring most of the nonsense that you put in this post, as I did find a small piece of response that can be saveable.

In your ramble, you mention Phyrexian Revoker, which is a card that Maverick has not adopted as main deckable, but is played in Death and Taxes to great success.

Do you think that this is a card we should be playing more of as a way to better interact with Counter Top/planeswakers/equipment or so you feel that Pridemage fills the slot in GW creature decks?

Also, just so you clearly know the premise of my post: I believe that Maverick, and green based creature decks in general i.e. Junk/Rock/Jund/Deadguy/Eva/whatever, all need to improve their Miracles matchup considerably to start the journey to tier 1. What can we do to improve our matchup against the best deck in the format?

Step one is to realize that it is not the best deck in the format. It might top 8 a lot, but it's not the only deck that top 8s a lot. Understand that in live events 92% of the successful decks is not Miracles. More often than not, the winning deck is not Miracles. More often than not--it's the same select Miracles players who ever actually win the event as opposed to tonnes of random players being the ones who win with other decks.

Step two is to realize that performance is based on how you beat the field, not how you beat Miracles. If that were the case, Cloudpost, MUD, and Eldrazi would win everything. Why don't they? Because apart from beating Miracles--they do little else consistently. Why is that? Because simply being good against Miracles does not make you a Tier 1 deck.

Step three is to realize that what tier people *perceive* you're deck of being does not determine how it will perform. It doesn't matter how often I perform well with my Maverick deck, it doesn't matter how many times I top 8 or top 16 50-100 man locals in my meta, in side events--people always say the same thing "it's no longer a good deck isn't it?" Even as I proceed to beat them for the 3rd or 5th straight time I am matched with them. The goal is not to beat all decks, the goal is to have the fewest losses by the end of the last round. What tier people think you are does not determine that--your performance is the only thing that determines that.

This is not standard, where the "best deck in the room" is something you face for 3-4 of the 15 rounds you play. In legacy you can face 15 decks in a 15 round tournament; and you often do. Warping yourself because a specific matchup scares you is not a deck problem, its a player problem. If you think to win you need to beat Miracles, then sleeve up an anti-miracles list and good luck reaching top 8, nothing stopping you from interpreting the metagame that way. But if you want to become good and do well with any list--don't waste your time trying to snipe anything in Legacy. You will do much better being the best *you* that you can be. Make the decks that fear you actually fear you.

[timmyod17]

Just narrowly missed out on day 2 at SCG Worcester. Guess I'll be heading back for the Classic tomorrow.

Rd 1: W vs Junk w/ Lingering Souls, Liliana, and Kaya (!) [1-0]
Rd 2: L vs U/W w/ Counterbalance+Top+Terminus, Moat (!), and Omni-Tell combo [1-1]
Rd 3: L vs Sneak and Show [1-2]
Rd 4: W vs Delver [2-2]
Rd 5: W vs Storm [3-2]
Rd 6: W vs Enchantress [4-2]
Rd 7: W vs Miracles [5-2]
Rd 8: W vs BUG TNN [6-2]
Rd 9: L vs Dredge [6-3]

My list:
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tireless Tracker

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

Thoughts:
Maverick still beats up on every fair deck in the format. Honestly never felt like any of the "fair" matchups were in doubt. And even some of the more degenerate combo decks (particularly Storm) are usually a pretty easy matchup if you don't just die on turn 1.

Ran a single Chains which absolutely wrecked a few brainstorm decks and essentially single-handedly won me a match against Enchantress. If you have access to it I highly recommend running it. Cavern of Souls over-performed as usual across a variety of matchups, and I was rather fortunate to have it both games against Miracles. Had a number of other games where I just had turn 2 Thalia off of Cavern and my opponent could only look helplessly on and fire off their brainstorm in response to shuffle away their countermagic. Rallier was not as impressive as he was my past few tournaments, but he provided occasional value. Tracker just breaks the game open against fair matchups but is usually the first cut against combo (fun fact, if you sac a bunch of clue tokens to an annihilator trigger he still gets +1/+1 counters and you can surprise kill a Sneak/Show player on the crackback).

Unfortunately I had scant graveyard hate and my dredge opponent had the literal nut draws. T1 DRS was nowhere close enough to win those games for me. Alas, sucks losing to that deck but I can't justify packing more dedicated graveyard hate for such a rare deck. I also unfortunately lost to Sneak/Show in game 3 when he had a T2 Blood Moon on the play and I had kept a hand with only dual lands (and had the decay in hand). And I totally punted a game vs the U/W Counter-Top plus Omni-Tell plus Terminus player when I forgot how many fetchable lands I had left in the deck after a super grindy game.

[lavafrogg]

Step one is to realize that it is not the best deck in the format. It might top 8 a lot, but it's not the only deck that top 8s a lot. Understand that in live events 92% of the successful decks is not Miracles. More often than not, the winning deck is not Miracles. More often than not--it's the same select Miracles players who ever actually win the event as opposed to tonnes of random players being the ones who win with other decks.

Step two is to realize that performance is based on how you beat the field, not how you beat Miracles. If that were the case, Cloudpost, MUD, and Eldrazi would win everything. Why don't they? Because apart from beating Miracles--they do little else consistently. Why is that? Because simply being good against Miracles does not make you a Tier 1 deck.

Step three is to realize that what tier people *perceive* you're deck of being does not determine how it will perform. It doesn't matter how often I perform well with my Maverick deck, it doesn't matter how many times I top 8 or top 16 50-100 man locals in my meta, in side events--people always say the same thing "it's no longer a good deck isn't it?" Even as I proceed to beat them for the 3rd or 5th straight time I am matched with them. The goal is not to beat all decks, the goal is to have the fewest losses by the end of the last round. What tier people think you are does not determine that--your performance is the only thing that determines that.

This is not standard, where the "best deck in the room" is something you face for 3-4 of the 15 rounds you play. In legacy you can face 15 decks in a 15 round tournament; and you often do. Warping yourself because a specific matchup scares you is not a deck problem, its a player problem. If you think to win you need to beat Miracles, then sleeve up an anti-miracles list and good luck reaching top 8, nothing stopping you from interpreting the metagame that way. But if you want to become good and do well with any list--don't waste your time trying to snipe anything in Legacy. You will do much better being the best *you* that you can be. Make the decks that fear you actually fear you.

Removed flames. Be nice. - Julian23

Saying that Miracles is not the best deck in Legacy is like saying the Patriots are not the best football team in the NFL. I mean, sure they win a lot of Super Bowls, but they are not the only team to win Super Bowls.

I am not sure what metric you are using but here are a few that I was able to find.

From a recent Channel Fireball Article by Bob Huang, who polled proven Legacy "Experts":

Here’s the breakdown of the consensus Top 5 archetypes:

Miracles—13 first-place votes, 3 second-place votes (for non-Legend Miracles), and 2 fifth-place votes (for Legends Miracles).
Delver Decks—3 first-place votes, 8 second-place votes, 4 third-place votes, 3 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote. Of the bunch, B/U/G Delver was considered the best.
Lands—1 second-place vote, 3 third-place votes, 6 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote.
Show and Tell—3 second-place votes, 3 third-place votes, and 2 fifth-place votes.
Death and Taxes—3 third-place votes, 5 fourth-place votes and 2 fifth-place votes.

Miracles has been the best deck since the Dig Through Time banning, and has been a top tier deck since people figured out that they could play 4 Ponders.

Since you love statistics so much here is a little analysis: Out of 16 voters, 13 first place votes went to Miracles, the 3 people that didn't vote for Miracles as the best deck voted for Miracles as #2. Two people even voted for Miracles twice as they differentiated between the standard and legends lists.

MTGTop 8 has Miracles as either the only tier 1 deck, or 1 of 2 tier one decks for at least the past year... after which I stopped checking.

MtgtheSource has Miracles as the top deck 8 out of the last 12 months, with 2 seconds and 2 thirds towards the end of last year.

If you check Starcity Games you are just as likely to find a top 8 with multiple Miracles decks than you are to find one with zero.

I am not saying Miracles is the best deck as a personal opinion, Miracles is currently the best deck in the format.

Following your format:

Step One: You say Miracles is not the best deck, this is wrong.

Step Two: Here you argue that you are strawman-ing my argument saying that just beating Miracles does not make a deck automatically tier one. While you are exactly correct in your statement you are completely fabricating the fact that I said we just needed to beat Miracles. Maverick has great match-ups against fair decks and decent to poor match-ups with unfair decks depending on how our hate(thalias/teegs) line up with the speed and angle of attack of the unfair deck. The problem is, as underdogs to Miracles, we no longer win all of our fair match-ups, which means... if the meta is unfair we have problems and if the meta is very fair, we have problems. If we can straighten out our Miracles match-up, we are already favored over the current swarm of BUG decks and all of the delver decks that exist, and we can go back to crushing our fair games and sneaking by our unfair ones into the top 8/16.

Step three: This jumble of nonsense shouldn't deserve a step, congrats, you are amazing. I would like to point out that your last line of "Make the decks that fear you actually fear you." is literally the definition of win more. Why would I want to beat the decks that I already beat. I don't need to work on match-ups that I am favored in, I need to work on match-ups that are winnable with adjustments. I am not going to sit here and tell you that we can crush combo 90% of the time because I know that is not possible, what I want to know(and what I have repeated to you over and over) is how we can improve a poor match-up, against Miracles, into an even or possibly favorable one.

I am not sure if I can repeat this enough: I want to beat Miracles and am trying to discuss ways to achieve that goal. Please stop trolling and either offer suggestions and helpful discussion or move on.

@timmyod17: nice run and sorry you couldn't make day 2. Personally I think that graveyard hate is mandatory as if you can stop reanimator/dredge on turn 0/1, we have the firepower to win the game with shaman/ooze. I would always recommend either tutor for crypt, faerie macabre or surgical extraction.

Containment Priest also has uses against dredge (if you can live that long) and also against Sneak and Show. We have also been discussing Phyrexian Revoker as a live card against the current meta as it shuts down many problem cards.

Good luck in the Open tomorrow and let us know how it goes!

[aspsnake]

#1 There is a general consensus amongst players in multiple threads on the source that Planeswalkers is one of the weak points for miracles. With the argument that miracles has a rough time removing one once it resolves. [Councils judgement, or flashcreatures]

Now at the DnT thread people are sold with the BFZ Gideon, which replaced the Elspeth which you used to see in older lists. Elf players include Nissa Vital force [most even 1 copy mainboard], whereas they opted for flip Garruk before that if they had to go for a planeswalker.

Big issue is that dealing with combat planeswalkers are not a weak point for Miracles, but rather Jace is a weak point for Maverick, especially GSZ version. Combat Planeswalkers give us a chance to deal with the sissyboy and eventually turn the game into our favor (though honestly best way to deal with Miracles is to resolve a Choke or strip them out of colours/lands early on, it requires a bad hand from their side as they have an answer to all our shennanigans in a nutshell). I'm all hands for Garruk rather than Gideon or Nissa, as he is the also works as removal against fair decks. I can see though that specifically in Miracles matchup, Nissa is probably better.


#2 I wil honestly admit that I read the last 3 pages before posting this, from what I read, none is adressing the difference between the GSZ Maverick build and the Vial build. I guess that the vial version might have a higher chance to win. [Then again I feel there is a consensus in this thread that GSZ Maverick is better then the Vial due to consistency?] Mostly due to Vial slipping in your creatures under their CB.

I'm quite a devoted Vial version player and I used to think that Vial version is better vs Miracles. However, this is not exactly true.
1) before sb, instead of virtual 5 teegs we have 2 sanctum prelates, which are much worse than teegs overall. With gsz, plan of quick mother + gsz for 2 is much more real, and overall much stronger.
2) after sb, instead of virtual 6 teegs we have 2 prelates + 2 teegs, which are still less. If you lose the first game, winning two onwards takes a looot of luck. Should something go not-as-planned, stuff is immediately going down. Yes, you can vial things in end of turn, but it's not very useful as they will kill your stuff on your turn, and you, playing around Terminus, will be in the same position as gsz maverick, but with much less options & less CA.


#3 IMO if you want to dedicate more SB slots to Miracles, and you want to have a card that has a wide usage in matchups then go for more Pithing Needles. Its better then Phyrexian Revoker to shut down their SDT or JTMS as its harder to remove. Peedle also has TONS of use in other matches aside Miracles, thus it feels less like a dead card in your SB if your not facing Miracles.

I do not wish to sum up things that others have said so already to keep the post short and constructive with my personal insight.

#4 That said, I see people here summing up things like. X chokes, a Planeswalker, AD's, Teeg etc. How much cards do you guys in general board in/out in the matchup? I TRY to limit myself to boarding up to 5 cards when playing Elves and Dnt. My reasoning for this: even if you look for interaction with your opponent because its a bad MU, it shouldn't mean that you need to dillute your own deck so much to the point that its core strategy is starting to waver. [The only exception to this for me is when facing ANT with Elves -.-]

#5 Maybe you guys want to evaluate first how many cards your willing to bring in versus the matchup? [make a top 5 to bring in] Naming 10 cards that make an impact on the MU as possible SB cards is fine, but I feel after summing them up you need to be selective which ones are gonna make it, while at the same time keeping in mind that said cards need to have [preferably] a wide application of use versus the Meta allround.

To be honest I also find it hard to offer advice here compared to the DnT section mainly because Maverick has such a flexible shell, meaning that the lists here differ far more from one another then the DnT ones. Lists that include Vial, Thalia's, Sylvan Library, Teeg, AD as MB will most likely have a small advantage vs Miracles over the generic GSZ version list. I don't think that this discussion will lead to a streamlined Maverick list thats allround.

Maybe focus on making a streamlined list with main opponent Miracles in mind [vial, thalia's], and then see how much that strays from the current builds. Maybe there is something to be gained from that.

My personal top-sb cards vs Miracles:

1) extra Teeg(s) - outta question
2) 2 Choke/Chains of Mephistopheles - with Predict versions gaining popularity, the latter becomes more and more viable, though Choke is never bad (they also started to bring Blood Moons, which makes their Tundras and Volcanics untap, silly stuff).
3) 2 Surgical Extractions: [1] many players side out counterbalance vs us; [2] stealing snapcaster food and responding to activation of top/terminus trigger won me quite some games.
4) Sword of Light & Shadow - I've been always switching in and out with this one, but my last word is - it is absolutely required in the 75. It gives this matchup something that even vials can't give you: guaranteed (unless Terminus) attack next turn. Also, bringing lots of problematic artifacts/enchantments makes their 1-2 Wear//Tear not enough to deal with all the stuff (extractions can also save your day time to time here).
5) 1-2 Pithing Needle - not necessarily 2, but 1 is pretty much required. More nasty artifacts to deal with, makes their deck handicapped with searching for answers if they can't deal with it fast.
6) 1-2 Garruk (or other combat planeswalker(s)) - gives an extra tool to win.

This results in minimum of 8 cards in sb that in my opinion any Maverick deck should hold in sb vs Miracles. Cool thing is that absolutely all of these are useful in other matchups.

Given how good is SoL&S, I started to think of playing an Eternal Witness in sb, to get back destroyed/countered hatecards and play them again. it also creates a loop vs decks like Pox: Witness gets back SoL&S, SoL&S gets back Witness. The loop can prob work vs Miracles too, but it's much harder to manage. I would never play Witness mainboard since the printing of DRS, but if control/stax decks are a thing in your meta, it might be quite good. Needs some testing :)

[TMagpie]

I really thought that your "cloudpost transformation sideboard" would be the dumbest thing that I read in this thread, but I feel like we have a new winner. Saying that Miracles is not the best deck in Legacy is like saying the Patriots are not the best football team in the NFL. I mean, sure they win a lot of Super Bowls, but they are not the only team to win Super Bowls.

I am not sure what metric you are using but here are a few that I was able to find.

From a recent Channel Fireball Article by Bob Huang, who polled proven Legacy "Experts":

Here’s the breakdown of the consensus Top 5 archetypes:

Miracles—13 first-place votes, 3 second-place votes (for non-Legend Miracles), and 2 fifth-place votes (for Legends Miracles).
Delver Decks—3 first-place votes, 8 second-place votes, 4 third-place votes, 3 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote. Of the bunch, B/U/G Delver was considered the best.
Lands—1 second-place vote, 3 third-place votes, 6 fourth-place votes, and 1 fifth-place vote.
Show and Tell—3 second-place votes, 3 third-place votes, and 2 fifth-place votes.
Death and Taxes—3 third-place votes, 5 fourth-place votes and 2 fifth-place votes.

Miracles has been the best deck since the Dig Through Time banning, and has been a top tier deck since people figured out that they could play 4 Ponders.

Since you love statistics so much here is a little analysis: Out of 16 voters, 13 first place votes went to Miracles, the 3 people that didn't vote for Miracles as the best deck voted for Miracles as #2. Two people even voted for Miracles twice as they differentiated between the standard and legends lists.

MTGTop 8 has Miracles as either the only tier 1 deck, or 1 of 2 tier one decks for at least the past year... after which I stopped checking.

MtgtheSource has Miracles as the top deck 8 out of the last 12 months, with 2 seconds and 2 thirds towards the end of last year.

If you check Starcity Games you are just as likely to find a top 8 with multiple Miracles decks than you are to find one with zero.

I am not saying Miracles is the best deck as a personal opinion, Miracles is currently the best deck in the format.

Following your format:

Step One: You say Miracles is not the best deck, this is wrong.

Step Two: Here you argue that you are strawman-ing my argument saying that just beating Miracles does not make a deck automatically tier one. While you are exactly correct in your statement you are completely fabricating the fact that I said we just needed to beat Miracles. Maverick has great match-ups against fair decks and decent to poor match-ups with unfair decks depending on how our hate(thalias/teegs) line up with the speed and angle of attack of the unfair deck. The problem is, as underdogs to Miracles, we no longer win all of our fair match-ups, which means... if the meta is unfair we have problems and if the meta is very fair, we have problems. If we can straighten out our Miracles match-up, we are already favored over the current swarm of BUG decks and all of the delver decks that exist, and we can go back to crushing our fair games and sneaking by our unfair ones into the top 8/16.

Step three: This jumble of nonsense shouldn't deserve a step, congrats, you are amazing. I would like to point out that your last line of "Make the decks that fear you actually fear you." is literally the definition of win more. Why would I want to beat the decks that I already beat. I don't need to work on match-ups that I am favored in, I need to work on match-ups that are winnable with adjustments. I am not going to sit here and tell you that we can crush combo 90% of the time because I know that is not possible, what I want to know(and what I have repeated to you over and over) is how we can improve a poor match-up, against Miracles, into an even or possibly favorable one.

I am not sure if I can repeat this enough: I want to beat Miracles and am trying to discuss ways to achieve that goal. Please stop trolling and either offer suggestions and helpful discussion or move on.

@timmyod17: nice run and sorry you couldn't make day 2. Personally I think that graveyard hate is mandatory as if you can stop reanimator/dredge on turn 0/1, we have the firepower to win the game with shaman/ooze. I would always recommend either tutor for crypt, faerie macabre or surgical extraction.

Containment Priest also has uses against dredge (if you can live that long) and also against Sneak and Show. We have also been discussing Phyrexian Revoker as a live card against the current meta as it shuts down many problem cards.

Good luck in the Open tomorrow and let us know how it goes!

In live events over the past two months Terminus decks got to the top 8 a total of 53 times. In that same time period, Thalia based strategies got there 51 times--does that mean Thalia strategies are as good as Miracles? What about Lotus Petal Strategies: 74 times. You are more likely to have gotten to a top 8 finish running lotus petals than Terminus--why is that?

It's because Legacy is a wide open format where decks go through ups and downs of performance. Stoneforge Mystic stragies got to the top 8 63 times, Delver strategies got to the top 8 46 times. Being ready to fight Lotus Petal decks is more important that being able to fight Terminus because Petal decks literally show up more, and perform well more. Its why Maverick does well at all tbh. Combo decks that crumble to Thalia/Teeg/DRS/Karakas along with Delver/Stoneforge Strategies are the main reasons we have good finishes.

The coveted "does well" idea your stuck on ignores the fact that lots of different strategies and styles perform well in Legacy. The reason Maverick performs well is because of the core cards that are inherent in its design. When you start cutting those out in order to improve just one single matchup--then you're literally cutting down your overall winrate to improve a specific winrate. But guess what, putting focus on just one matchup does not actually improve the deck's ability to perform well in an event. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that you'll only face Miracles for 15 rounds. And those favored matchups? They aren't guaranteed wins. Sometimes Show and Tell kills you by the 2nd turn, sometime RUG stifles you out of the game, sometimes double therapy from Pyromancer decks or even Nic Fit decks kills you before your deck does anything. The favored matchups are the reason Maverick does well in events. Win the matchups your supposed to win, minimize the matchups you're unlikely to win, get to top 8.

Maverick does well in either a fair metagame or an unfair metagame. I love playing against both UB Reanimator, Storm, etc... Because those are the decks Maverick is designed to combat. Decks that are weak to Thalia, weak to Knight of the Reliquary, and weak to Stoneforge--those are the favored matchups that Maverick wants to face. The tutor targets allows Maverick various levels of adaptability should your front line threats not be good enough.

In order to do all this, Maverick trims on the only thing it cannot get back--kill speed. Maverick is slow out the gates, and doesn't close things out quickly. Miracles has lots of good matchups, but all of them hinge on the idea that they need to get to the mid-game. I've seen Miracles die many many times to elves just because turn 2 Counterbalance was not enough to stop elves from killing them on turn 3. I've seen Miracles die to Burn with counter-top lock out because he was too low on life and could only counter 2 spells that turn and not 3. Of the many decks in Legacy, Maverick is the few that Miracles literally gets giddy about. We don't kill them quickly, they run tonnes of basics, and Terminus is house against us. That means they have the time, means, and patience to get wins. Thalia is good against them, but not when they have 6 lands out. Teeg stops terminus, but takes 10 turns to kill them in which case Plow/Snap/Karakas stops him. Equipment are strong, assuming someone picks them up. The actual Maverick strategy is the reason Miracles is favored. Its not because Miracles runs sweepers--sweepers are easy enough to beat. Its not because it runs removal--I've beaten Punishing Fire locks many times. Its not even counterbalance--since Maverick is a decay deck with GSZ and Pridemages. No, its literally the fact that if Miracles wanted a favored matchup the deck they would design in the abstract is Maverick. Slow to kill deck whose main forms of disruption dies to Swords to Plowshares and whose main way to counteract Swords to Plowshores is to put more threats on the field in order to maximize the effect of sweepers.

To transform that matchup to one where we beat them, one would need to literally change what Maverick is from a fundamental level.

Here are some suggestions: Don't run a lot of creatures. Cut the hatebears for countermagic. Cut the mana dorks for cantrips to find the countermagic. Run cheaper high damage threats like True-Name, Delver, or Goyf. Cut GSZ, cut Stoneforge Mystic because they're too slow and they'll kill your creatures anyway, add planeswalkers. Etc...

You know what you'll have in the end? A deck that can beat miracles a lot--but not one that I would call Maverick.

[Luthiereisfun]

In live events over the past two months Terminus decks got to the top 8 a total of 53 times. In that same time period, Thalia based strategies got there 51 times--does that mean Thalia strategies are as good as Miracles? What about Lotus Petal Strategies: 74 times. You are more likely to have gotten to a top 8 finish running lotus petals than Terminus--why is that?

It's because Legacy is a wide open format where decks go through ups and downs of performance. Stoneforge Mystic stragies got to the top 8 63 times, Delver strategies got to the top 8 46 times. Being ready to fight Lotus Petal decks is more important that being able to fight Terminus because Petal decks literally show up more, and perform well more. Its why Maverick does well at all tbh. Combo decks that crumble to Thalia/Teeg/DRS/Karakas along with Delver/Stoneforge Strategies are the main reasons we have good finishes.

The coveted "does well" idea your stuck on ignores the fact that lots of different strategies and styles perform well in Legacy. The reason Maverick performs well is because of the core cards that are inherent in its design. When you start cutting those out in order to improve just one single matchup--then you're literally cutting down your overall winrate to improve a specific winrate. But guess what, putting focus on just one matchup does not actually improve the deck's ability to perform well in an event. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that you'll only face Miracles for 15 rounds. And those favored matchups? They aren't guaranteed wins. Sometimes Show and Tell kills you by the 2nd turn, sometime RUG stifles you out of the game, sometimes double therapy from Pyromancer decks or even Nic Fit decks kills you before your deck does anything. The favored matchups are the reason Maverick does well in events. Win the matchups your supposed to win, minimize the matchups you're unlikely to win, get to top 8.

Maverick does well in either a fair metagame or an unfair metagame. I love playing against both UB Reanimator, Storm, etc... Because those are the decks Maverick is designed to combat. Decks that are weak to Thalia, weak to Knight of the Reliquary, and weak to Stoneforge--those are the favored matchups that Maverick wants to face. The tutor targets allows Maverick various levels of adaptability should your front line threats not be good enough.

In order to do all this, Maverick trims on the only thing it cannot get back--kill speed. Maverick is slow out the gates, and doesn't close things out quickly. Miracles has lots of good matchups, but all of them hinge on the idea that they need to get to the mid-game. I've seen Miracles die many many times to elves just because turn 2 Counterbalance was not enough to stop elves from killing them on turn 3. I've seen Miracles die to Burn with counter-top lock out because he was too low on life and could only counter 2 spells that turn and not 3. Of the many decks in Legacy, Maverick is the few that Miracles literally gets giddy about. We don't kill them quickly, they run tonnes of basics, and Terminus is house against us. That means they have the time, means, and patience to get wins. Thalia is good against them, but not when they have 6 lands out. Teeg stops terminus, but takes 10 turns to kill them in which case Plow/Snap/Karakas stops him. Equipment are strong, assuming someone picks them up. The actual Maverick strategy is the reason Miracles is favored. Its not because Miracles runs sweepers--sweepers are easy enough to beat. Its not because it runs removal--I've beaten Punishing Fire locks many times. Its not even counterbalance--since Maverick is a decay deck with GSZ and Pridemages. No, its literally the fact that if Miracles wanted a favored matchup the deck they would design in the abstract is Maverick. Slow to kill deck whose main forms of disruption dies to Swords to Plowshares and whose main way to counteract Swords to Plowshores is to put more threats on the field in order to maximize the effect of sweepers.

To transform that matchup to one where we beat them, one would need to literally change what Maverick is from a fundamental level.

Here are some suggestions: Don't run a lot of creatures. Cut the hatebears for countermagic. Cut the mana dorks for cantrips to find the countermagic. Run cheaper high damage threats like True-Name, Delver, or Goyf. Cut GSZ, cut Stoneforge Mystic because they're too slow and they'll kill your creatures anyway, add planeswalkers. Etc...

You know what you'll have in the end? A deck that can beat miracles a lot--but not one that I would call Maverick.

Tmagpie you didn't mention it in this post but I think you touched on it earlier. I think a big reason Maverick doesn't put as many results as other decks is a lot of people simply think it's bad or say well if I'm going to play Maverick I might as well play DnT because it's better positioned.

I don't think Maverick is bad. Is DnT better in the current meta? I would say yes generally. But if only 3 people bring Maverick to a 100 man event and 10 bring DnT what is much more likely to end up top8?

DnT. It then perpetuates DnT is a real deck while Maverick isnt. I just don't think Maverick is played as much for the above said reasons. But I think it can put results up and if more people played it I think that would show.


I hope that makes sense. My point is basically Maverick isn't as bad as people think but it underperforms at events because it isn't played as much. I think it's also a very tricky deck to pilot optimally. Yes certain matchups are as simple as slam down teeg/Thalia or get jitte online and go to town. But between Knight, GSZ and cards like scrub ranger I feel like the deck can have a very wide decision tree that can make the difference between a win or loss. Thalia and Gaddock Teeg also make sequencing very important.

[aspsnake]

In live events over the past two months Terminus decks got to the top 8 a total of 53 times. In that same time period, Thalia based strategies got there 51 times--does that mean Thalia strategies are as good as Miracles? What about Lotus Petal Strategies: 74 times. You are more likely to have gotten to a top 8 finish running lotus petals than Terminus--why is that?

It's because Legacy is a wide open format where decks go through ups and downs of performance. Stoneforge Mystic stragies got to the top 8 63 times, Delver strategies got to the top 8 46 times. Being ready to fight Lotus Petal decks is more important that being able to fight Terminus because Petal decks literally show up more, and perform well more. Its why Maverick does well at all tbh. Combo decks that crumble to Thalia/Teeg/DRS/Karakas along with Delver/Stoneforge Strategies are the main reasons we have good finishes.

The coveted "does well" idea your stuck on ignores the fact that lots of different strategies and styles perform well in Legacy. The reason Maverick performs well is because of the core cards that are inherent in its design. When you start cutting those out in order to improve just one single matchup--then you're literally cutting down your overall winrate to improve a specific winrate. But guess what, putting focus on just one matchup does not actually improve the deck's ability to perform well in an event. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that you'll only face Miracles for 15 rounds. And those favored matchups? They aren't guaranteed wins. Sometimes Show and Tell kills you by the 2nd turn, sometime RUG stifles you out of the game, sometimes double therapy from Pyromancer decks or even Nic Fit decks kills you before your deck does anything. The favored matchups are the reason Maverick does well in events. Win the matchups your supposed to win, minimize the matchups you're unlikely to win, get to top 8.

Maverick does well in either a fair metagame or an unfair metagame. I love playing against both UB Reanimator, Storm, etc... Because those are the decks Maverick is designed to combat. Decks that are weak to Thalia, weak to Knight of the Reliquary, and weak to Stoneforge--those are the favored matchups that Maverick wants to face. The tutor targets allows Maverick various levels of adaptability should your front line threats not be good enough.

In order to do all this, Maverick trims on the only thing it cannot get back--kill speed. Maverick is slow out the gates, and doesn't close things out quickly. Miracles has lots of good matchups, but all of them hinge on the idea that they need to get to the mid-game. I've seen Miracles die many many times to elves just because turn 2 Counterbalance was not enough to stop elves from killing them on turn 3. I've seen Miracles die to Burn with counter-top lock out because he was too low on life and could only counter 2 spells that turn and not 3. Of the many decks in Legacy, Maverick is the few that Miracles literally gets giddy about. We don't kill them quickly, they run tonnes of basics, and Terminus is house against us. That means they have the time, means, and patience to get wins. Thalia is good against them, but not when they have 6 lands out. Teeg stops terminus, but takes 10 turns to kill them in which case Plow/Snap/Karakas stops him. Equipment are strong, assuming someone picks them up. The actual Maverick strategy is the reason Miracles is favored. Its not because Miracles runs sweepers--sweepers are easy enough to beat. Its not because it runs removal--I've beaten Punishing Fire locks many times. Its not even counterbalance--since Maverick is a decay deck with GSZ and Pridemages. No, its literally the fact that if Miracles wanted a favored matchup the deck they would design in the abstract is Maverick. Slow to kill deck whose main forms of disruption dies to Swords to Plowshares and whose main way to counteract Swords to Plowshores is to put more threats on the field in order to maximize the effect of sweepers.

To transform that matchup to one where we beat them, one would need to literally change what Maverick is from a fundamental level.

Here are some suggestions: Don't run a lot of creatures. Cut the hatebears for countermagic. Cut the mana dorks for cantrips to find the countermagic. Run cheaper high damage threats like True-Name, Delver, or Goyf. Cut GSZ, cut Stoneforge Mystic because they're too slow and they'll kill your creatures anyway, add planeswalkers. Etc...

You know what you'll have in the end? A deck that can beat miracles a lot--but not one that I would call Maverick.

I don't know what others think, but to me there was no purpose to improve winrate to 60-40 or smth - but just stand a fair chance vs Miracles while not hurting other matchups.
I'm sure that we can play and win vs Miracles (in my last post I explained how), without even bringing dedicated Miracles-hate slots. Finding the right pieces of the puzzle allow us to improve our chances to like 40-60. That's totally fine by me, I just want to have a fair chance against any deck I face (maybe with the exception of Belcher/OopsAllSpells, those are not really worth our slots), and not only when they mulligan to 2.

[ET1]

Tmagpie you didn't mention it in this post but I think you touched on it earlier. I think a big reason Maverick doesn't put as many results as other decks is a lot of people simply think it's bad or say well if I'm going to play Maverick I might as well play DnT because it's better positioned.

I don't think Maverick is bad. Is DnT better in the current meta? I would say yes generally. But if only 3 people bring Maverick to a 100 man event and 10 bring DnT what is much more likely to end up top8?

DnT. It then perpetuates DnT is a real deck while Maverick isnt. I just don't think Maverick is played as much for the above said reasons. But I think it can put results up and if more people played it I think that would show.


I hope that makes sense. My point is basically Maverick isn't as bad as people think but it underperforms at events because it isn't played as much. I think it's also a very tricky deck to pilot optimally. Yes certain matchups are as simple as slam down teeg/Thalia or get jitte online and go to town. But between Knight, GSZ and cards like scrub ranger I feel like the deck can have a very wide decision tree that can make the difference between a win or loss. Thalia and Gaddock Teeg also make sequencing very important.

I believe this is a very important point and one that I would also like to add on to. Maverick does suffer from being under-represented I think good pilots do have good finishes with the deck, but it is a very challenging deck to play optimally. Additionally maverick suffers from the inability to beat opponents nut draws. I believe Tmagpie pointed to this a bit earlier, but some match-ups we just can't do much about when they draw a nutter. Storm, Belcher, Sneak n Show, other Show n Tell and Dredge can all just go off on the first turn of the game leaving us no time to execute our gameplan. Similar things can be said about fairer match-ups such as eldrazi, painter, loam other blood moon/chalice decks where they do just have a turn one blood moon or a turn one chalice that keeps us from playing magic. I think those are some of the biggest reasons maverick is not a more played deck and why it fails to put up consistent top 8 finishes. Given a 9 round tournament we will lose matches to those kinds of games.

Additionally regarding the miracles match-up. Miracles is the best deck in the format. You all need to stop bickering about it being the best deck in the format. If you disagree thats totally fine, its just what most people think. We don't have to have a positive match-up against miracles to be a viable or good deck. Turning maverick into a deck with a positive miracles match-up likely dillutes our deck to the point of suffering too much against other 50/50 to slighty positive match-ups. What we should be discussing is how to best tinker with the deck to bring the match-up to 45/55 without drastically affecting our other match-ups. Additionally the DnT poster brought up a great point of how many sideboard cards should we bring in to the miracles match-up. I believe in the past I've been bringing in 6 or 7. How many cards does everyone else bring in? Also what cards are people taking out? I have seen that over the past 1.5 years of lurking on or reading this thread what people bring out in this match-up varies widely.

Lastly in terms of streamlining the deck I do believe that GSZ maverick lists should all start somewhere around NEELEY's list and go from there. Thats where my list has been for a long time, just with some changes (such as Dark Depths combo, but thats also because I'm only playing in paper, and my metagame has been very susceptible to it).

[Luthiereisfun]

I believe this is a very important point and one that I would also like to add on to. Maverick does suffer from being under-represented I think good pilots do have good finishes with the deck, but it is a very challenging deck to play optimally. Additionally maverick suffers from the inability to beat opponents nut draws. I believe Tmagpie pointed to this a bit earlier, but some match-ups we just can't do much about when they draw a nutter. Storm, Belcher, Sneak n Show, other Show n Tell and Dredge can all just go off on the first turn of the game leaving us no time to execute our gameplan. Similar things can be said about fairer match-ups such as eldrazi, painter, loam other blood moon/chalice decks where they do just have a turn one blood moon or a turn one chalice that keeps us from playing magic. I think those are some of the biggest reasons maverick is not a more played deck and why it fails to put up consistent top 8 finishes. Given a 9 round tournament we will lose matches to those kinds of games.

Additionally regarding the miracles match-up. Miracles is the best deck in the format. You all need to stop bickering about it being the best deck in the format. If you disagree thats totally fine, its just what most people think. We don't have to have a positive match-up against miracles to be a viable or good deck. Turning maverick into a deck with a positive miracles match-up likely dillutes our deck to the point of suffering too much against other 50/50 to slighty positive match-ups. What we should be discussing is how to best tinker with the deck to bring the match-up to 45/55 without drastically affecting our other match-ups. Additionally the DnT poster brought up a great point of how many sideboard cards should we bring in to the miracles match-up. I believe in the past I've been bringing in 6 or 7. How many cards does everyone else bring in? Also what cards are people taking out? I have seen that over the past 1.5 years of lurking on or reading this thread what people bring out in this match-up varies widely.

Lastly in terms of streamlining the deck I do believe that GSZ maverick lists should all start somewhere around NEELEY's list and go from there. Thats where my list has been for a long time, just with some changes (such as Dark Depths combo, but thats also because I'm only playing in paper, and my metagame has been very susceptible to it).

I have played many 'stock' no thrills Maverick lists and for awhile switched to playing a lot more fringe stuff like Sigarda, rallier, tirleless tracker etc.. I have kind of cut the crap and started to play a list very close to Neeley's. It feels good. How are you fitting in the depths combo? Are you cutting cradle?

Thanks for any insight:)

[ET1]

I have played many 'stock' no thrills Maverick lists and for awhile switched to playing a lot more fringe stuff like Sigarda, rallier, tirleless tracker etc.. I have kind of cut the crap and started to play a list very close to Neeley's. It feels good. How are you fitting in the depths combo? Are you cutting cradle?

Thanks for any insight:)

Yes, I am not playing cradle. It essentially translates to playing one less land that taps for mana. Greedy I know, but it has worked out for me pretty well.

In the past when people have talked about the combo many people have talked about it being a crutch that you can be tempted to lean on. I view it as a complement to how maverick attacks other decks on multiple axes. It's almost like a third dimension to how we already attack other players. Maverick generally attacks players through pressure on the ground with knight/equipment/other creatures and by pressuring their mana with wasteland/thalia. Dark depths gives you the option to pressure them with a combo that ends the game. You can occasionally make a marit lage quite quickly which gives you a good out to other aggressive decks and combo decks. There is also a plethora of decks that do a good job of answering your primary threats, but have little to no way of dealing with an indestructible flying 20/20.

Those are the positives of the combo, it does have significant drawbacks mainly being the mana. In the context of the right metagame it's excellent. In a more open metagame such as at an open, GP, or other large legacy event I'm not as sure it would be correct. However I'm sure you could catch plenty of people by surprise with it.

[Luthiereisfun]

Yes, I am not playing cradle. It essentially translates to playing one less land that taps for mana. Greedy I know, but it has worked out for me pretty well.

In the past when people have talked about the combo many people have talked about it being a crutch that you can be tempted to lean on. I view it as a complement to how maverick attacks other decks on multiple axes. It's almost like a third dimension to how we already attack other players. Maverick generally attacks players through pressure on the ground with knight/equipment/other creatures and by pressuring their mana with wasteland/thalia. Dark depths gives you the option to pressure them with a combo that ends the game. You can occasionally make a marit lage quite quickly which gives you a good out to other aggressive decks and combo decks. There is also a plethora of decks that do a good job of answering your primary threats, but have little to no way of dealing with an indestructible flying 20/20.

Those are the positives of the combo, it does have significant drawbacks mainly being the mana. In the context of the right metagame it's excellent. In a more open metagame such as at an open, GP, or other large legacy event I'm not as sure it would be correct. However I'm sure you could catch plenty of people by surprise with it.

Awesome thanks for the reply. I have played the combo before and sometimes it just absolutely wrecks. I'm going to Valhalla games win a lotus in Columbia MO at the end of the month. I know the list I'm bringing will be close to Neeley's. Certain inclusions like dark depths combo are tempting. If I don't add dark depths I know I'm probably going to swap one of the forests for a cavern of souls.

[pettdan]

The last days of comments made me want to comment on my experiences with the Miracles matchup. I only play once a week so there's not a whole lot of testing, also I didn't play Maverick for the last couple of months so bear that in mind.. Also I don't really have time to work on this text to make it smooth reading, but if you're interested enough you'll read it anyway.

I've been trying to improve the Miracles matchup for the last two or three years, not working hard on it with a lot of testing but considering options and trying them out every now and then. Miracles has been the number one deck in the local meta at times so I've played against it a lot, but the Legends build has been very popular so my experience is with that version primarily. I guess some 2-3 years ago a version more similar to the current version was more popular (winning with Entreat or Jace, which can be fought with Gaddock, who's much less useful vs the Legends build).

Vs Miracles I tend to bring out most copies of Thalia and Mother of Runes since they are all very low impact, they don't really put a pressure on Miracles and just help make their Termini better. I realize that both of these are controversial to bring out. I've just been really unhappy sitting with multiple Thalias in hand, this could be due to the Legends build having been overrepresented locally and their Karakas makes Thalia about as threatening as a fly on your shoulder, with multiple copies in hand being really unimpressive. Also, Miracles has 4 StP's, 3 Snapcasters and millions of cantrips - they will usually be able to StP Mother if they want to and otherwise they can find a Terminus. I also usually bring out 1-2 of the 3 StP's I usually play, keeping 1-2 to fight Clique and Mentors.

Gaddock Teeg may have become better again with the increased usage of Entreat, still he's answered by the often maindecked Council's Judgment and overrun by Monastery Mentor. And to have any chance of having a Gaddock in play you need both Mother and Gaddock and then a third creature to apply any pressure since you don't want to give them the opportunity to flash in Snappy to block-kill an attacking Gaddock. Thus Gaddock forces you to overcommit into Terminus AND can be ignored by Mentor wins AND is answered by Council's Judgment (and Karakas). He was super great a few years ago, but with Mentor and maindecked answers I don't think one can count on that anymore. And if you pack extra copies in the sideboard you need to consider that they may bring in Mentors. Maybe the current Miracles build is more exposed to Gaddock, though, I'd like to hear if someone has a comment on this.

I tend to bring in:
2 Pithing Needle are brought in for dealing with SDT and occasionally a Jace.
1 Engineered Plague, for dealing with monk tokens but it can also name Wizards and kill current and future Snapcasters and Cliques, which can be good for clearing the way for an attack into Jace
1 Choke, if I have it. But never play it with an artifact in play and vice versa
1 Planeswalker. If I have one. Typically Garruk Relentless.
0-2 Thoughtseize, for grabbing early SDT, Counterbalance, Snapcaster, Jace etc.
0 Abrupt Decays. I maindeck 3 due to Miracles's local presence (historically).

Note that none of these cards are specifically for Miracles. At times I've tried Bitterblossom and Lightning Greaves. They even work together, giving the Faeries haste is nice. Bitterblossom obviously creates tokens every turn which makes it a 2 CMC planeswalker in the Miracles matchup (even better since they can't destroy it with Clique or Snapcaster), but it becomes worse after boarding when they bring in Wear/Tear. I have actually tried maindecking it, which I did at GP Prague 2016 but I never met Miracles there. Lightning Greaves is for making KotR a real threat, 6/6-ish hasting untargetable creatures can be a problem for Miracles, or that is my hypothesis. Every single creature you play helps bring in damage points and fighting Jace. Greaves is also good vs any deck with a lot of removal, it's really good if you're playing Depths+Stage (gives Knight haste so you can get Depths faster, then gives Marit Lage haste too giving you kills out of nowhere, basically possible from an empty board at the end of the opponents turn). Worth noting is that both Greaves and Blossom are improved by the addition of Renegade Rallier; when the opponent answers them you have a way to bring them back.

Choke rarely shone for me vs Miracles, neither did Winter Orb. I may have had bad luck, but I've seen the same effects when other decks have been using these cards. The Miracles player sits back and spins top once a turn, making a few additional landdrops. They can still Terminus and Sword creatures efficiently and have found their enchantment removal in time. The nail in the coffin for my belief that we can pack lock-down pieces in the shape of enchantments or artifacts to win this matchup was when playing Sylvan Plug just to beat them with this strategy. Having 5-6 permanents removed two at a time by their Wear/Tear no 1, Snapcaster Wear/Tear and then Wear Tear no 2 felt pretty bad and since then I don't put too much faith in these approaches. Similarly I've cast Armageddon vs Miracles just to have them recover faster with an active SDT. Maybe you all had different experiences.

I've also tried packing several Leovolds and Tireless Trackers to give cards that must be answered and that are both threats and generate card advantage AND can be protected by Mother. I wrote about that in this thread something like six months ago, and it also didn't really work out.

Some other approaches I've been intending to try are:
- Playing 3 GSZ's and 2 Vials to improve win percentages. I've done this successfully with other decks (perhaps you've seen my comments about MOST) so I'm curious to experiment with it in Maverick. Maybe the creature count will be too low.
- Playing 1-2 Nissa, Vital Force in the sideboard. She turned up in Nic Fit early after printing and has been doing great since, Elves too as I'm sure you're all aware. Maverick can easily tutor for Cradle and power this out around turn 3-4.

[Edit: have also intended to try 1 md Ghost Quarter and Loam and 1 sb GQ and Crucible to get rid of Miracles's white mana sources]

[Thunderknight]

I think that these past couple of days the Maverick community has been coming together to voice their opinions about this specific deck. I've been playing the deck extensively for a year now. I've been grinding a lot of Legacy Classics and nearby 1Ks. I even started a WordPress about Maverick and shared my reports with the deck (I'm still trying to work out the kinks as far as wordpress, but I am planning on writing more about the deck). I am on the perspective to say that MTGO results don't always reflect paper magic, so at first glance, I am hesitant to try out NEELYs list. (I do not believe that having a stock list will have a higher chance of beating Miracles flat out).

Fundamentally speaking, we are a mid-range deck playing against a Control deck that has prison elements. We don't have the best matchup with the deck, we can all agree with that statement, however, it is not unbeatable. I have not seen enough suggestions are far as drawing more cards or slowing Miracles down from drawing cards. I've been on leovold for a while now and it has been a major pain in the butt for Miracles. The times that I won against Miracles was when I had either a Dark Confidant in play, a Tireless tracker in play with enough clues to crack to draw more cards, Thrun+SoLas, and a very few times DRS activations.

I participated in the SCG Worcester last minute (I was sponsored by BMG to play). I know that I made major misplays, and my deck isn't no where I want it to be, but I had fun, and the games that I lost where very close.
3x DRS
3x Mother of Runes
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliqury
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Renegade Railler

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Lirbary

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canpoy
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest


SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ehtersoworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Surgical Extracation
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Pithing Needle

At the end of 9 Rounds. I went 5-4 for my first Legacy Open. Lost to Burn, UW Stoneblade, DnT, and Miracles. Won aganist Burn, Burn, BR Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Miracles.

[timmyod17]

Finished 6-2 at today's Legacy Classic and just missed out of top 16 on breakers. Faced the following:

Rd 1 - Loss vs Punishing Abzan [0-1]
Rd 2 - Win vs BUG Delver [1-1]
Rd 3 - Win vs 4c Control [2-1]
Rd 4 - Loss vs U/R Delver [2-2]
Rd 5 - Win vs Dredge [3-2]
Rd 6 - Win vs Sneak/Show [4-2]
Rd 7 - Win vs Miracles [5-2]
Rd 8 - Win vs BUG Delver [6-2]

I played a list quite similar to the one I posted yesterday, only swapping out a Tireless Tracker for a 2nd Rallier.

I lost a super grindy and close matchup to the Punishing player (who ended up going undefeated in the Swiss) after failing to see a single StP or Decay the entire match and having his Dark Confidants go unchecked in each game. Also lost to Emma Handy playing U/R Delver. She blew me out by end step brainstorming, putting a Thunderous Wrath (!!) on top, revealing it to flip her Delver and then miracle'ing it to kill my Knight. Felt gross. Also punted in the next game and completely forgot about the existence of Submerge - lesson learned, never activate Knight against a deck that plays Submerge :frown:

Anyway, the rest of my matches went generally according to plan. Got lucky to beat Dredge game 1 on the draw, and lucked out when my Miracles opponent mulled to 5 in game 1. Getting game 1 vs both those decks is a big deal.

I think moving forward I'm going to cut the Ralliers completely and maybe go back to a 3rd Stoneforge and 3rd Equipment (most likely Sword of Light/Shadow). It's really sweet when you can live the dream and get value from the Rallier, but it's so hard to set up and they just seem to rot in the hand.

Regarding the above discussion about boarding for Miracles. My plan this weekend was:
-4 StP, -1 Cradle, -1 Mother, -1 Thalia, -1 Knight
+2 Choke, +1 Chains of Mephistopheles, +1 Needle, +1 Sword Light/Shadow, +1 Garruk, +1 Prelate, +1 Teeg

The more I think about it, the more I think it's probably correct to cut more Mothers and fewer StP's. They lean hard on Mentors out of the board and really count on us cutting our removal. Mom is just so easily played around, especially now that basically all the Miracles lists are running Explosives. In any case, I went 2-0 in this matchup over the weekend and beat a few pretty skilled players which was pretty gratifying.

[Luthiereisfun]

I think that these past couple of days the Maverick community has been coming together to voice their opinions about this specific deck. I've been playing the deck extensively for a year now. I've been grinding a lot of Legacy Classics and nearby 1Ks. I even started a WordPress about Maverick and shared my reports with the deck (I'm still trying to work out the kinks as far as wordpress, but I am planning on writing more about the deck). I am on the perspective to say that MTGO results don't always reflect paper magic, so at first glance, I am hesitant to try out NEELYs list. (I do not believe that having a stock list will have a higher chance of beating Miracles flat out).

Fundamentally speaking, we are a mid-range deck playing against a Control deck that has prison elements. We don't have the best matchup with the deck, we can all agree with that statement, however, it is not unbeatable. I have not seen enough suggestions are far as drawing more cards or slowing Miracles down from drawing cards. I've been on leovold for a while now and it has been a major pain in the butt for Miracles. The times that I won against Miracles was when I had either a Dark Confidant in play, a Tireless tracker in play with enough clues to crack to draw more cards, Thrun+SoLas, and a very few times DRS activations.

I participated in the SCG Worcester last minute (I was sponsored by BMG to play). I know that I made major misplays, and my deck isn't no where I want it to be, but I had fun, and the games that I lost where very close.
3x DRS
3x Mother of Runes
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliqury
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Renegade Railler

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Lirbary

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canpoy
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest


SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ehtersoworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Surgical Extracation
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Pithing Needle

At the end of 9 Rounds. I went 5-4 for my first Legacy Open. Lost to Burn, UW Stoneblade, DnT, and Miracles. Won aganist Burn, Burn, BR Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Miracles.

How were the collected companies?

[lavafrogg]

Sorry guys!

I let the internet get to me and didn't mean to bring the thread down with a rude and disrespectful attitude. I am really glad that we are focused on improving the deck and I feel like the Maverick thread is alive for the first time in ages.

On a better note I can say that I 4-0'd a local today with a build that I decided to play after the posts over the past few days. I ran the table against Delver, Sneak and Show and Eldrazi while winning a close 2-1 set against DnT. I will get a list up soon and hopefully I can real the current discussion tonight/tomorrow.

And the list:

Creatures(26)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(21)
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforst
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle

I understand that Deathrite Shaman is most likely the correct card, but I absolutely want to have an active mana dork on turn 2(between GSZ for arbor and heirarch) so I can cast GSZ for teeg/ooze/pridemage, knight, or prelate every time. I am currently at the dreaded 61 and am having trouble making the cut....

I decided that testing multiple Prelates in a deck that loves weenies and crushes fair decks is most likely a good idea. She is good against anything that isn't Death and Taxes, which is a good match-up for us either way.

Prelate + Mom kills most of the format as they have minimal ways to kill creatures after 1 is locked out.

Prelate + Teeg is GG against miracles, storm, sneak and show and most every non-interactive deck that exists.

I am working on what to name with prelate in all match-ups to see where she really shines.

Did we put effort into testing prelate builds when she came out? If we did what page number if there is any discussion I should read.

Peace!

[aspsnake]

Sorry guys!

I let the internet get to me and didn't mean to bring the thread down with a rude and disrespectful attitude. I am really glad that we are focused on improving the deck and I feel like the Maverick thread is alive for the first time in ages.

On a better note I can say that I 4-0'd a local today with a build that I decided to play after the posts over the past few days. I ran the table against Delver, Sneak and Show and Eldrazi while winning a close 2-1 set against DnT. I will get a list up soon and hopefully I can real the current discussion tonight/tomorrow.

And the list:

Creatures(26)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(21)
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforst
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle

I understand that Deathrite Shaman is most likely the correct card, but I absolutely want to have an active mana dork on turn 2(between GSZ for arbor and heirarch) so I can cast GSZ for teeg/ooze/pridemage, knight, or prelate every time. I am currently at the dreaded 61 and am having trouble making the cut....

I decided that testing multiple Prelates in a deck that loves weenies and crushes fair decks is most likely a good idea. She is good against anything that isn't Death and Taxes, which is a good match-up for us either way.

Prelate + Mom kills most of the format as they have minimal ways to kill creatures after 1 is locked out.

Prelate + Teeg is GG against miracles, storm, sneak and show and most every non-interactive deck that exists.

I am working on what to name with prelate in all match-ups to see where she really shines.

Did we put effort into testing prelate builds when she came out? If we did what page number if there is any discussion I should read.

Peace!

Hi,

that's a very interesting approach! I would personally play 2x mb +1x sb, as there are much more than D&T where Sanctum is not-so-amazing, including Maverick and decks with 1,2,3-cost removal. There are decks like RUG delver though that get obliterated by this card if it resolves. I would even consider playing 2x Caverns (Hierarchs are humans, huh), since with Prelates they aid to throw delver decks from the roof.

I also think that in your particular version Hierarchs are justifiable. They are really bad to -1/-1 effects and forked bolts, but you can just lock those effects out with Prelates. Additionally, since Sanctum Prelates are very bad fighters, Hierarchs compensate for that, giving them +x/+x when attacking. But watch out for graveyard strategies: I see that you play 3x Faerie Macabre in sb, but I'd in your place diversify the hate a bit.

Another thing I would strongly consider playing in your list is the Thespian Stage + Dark Depths combo. In e.g. Death & Taxes matchup, it makes Prelates very valuable: you can turn off Swords and kill them with the combo if they are not expecting it. Same for Miracles.

Now a drop of criticism. I'd play Garruk over Gideon honestly. Another thing I really disagree with is B/G sword in the place of U/R: what are you even doing against a Fish? Once resolved, True-name just wins the game if you don't have an U/R Sword and/or Zealous Persecutions. If I were you, I'd also add 1-2 Council's Judgements to sb to have some extra Fish protection post-board. It also helps against a huge variety of things.

I made a slightly alternative take on your deck here: https://deckstats.net/deck-12830141-021d1c01282762724c428c05b4872712.html, might give it a try.

Now, a short guide to naming stuff with Prelate:

It's quite important that your opponent can respond to Prelate. If they have a Brainstorm in hand and you are likely to name [1], they will probably respond with it. If they have an Abrupt Decay and you are likely to name [2], they might just kill something on your field. If they don't respond, it might be a signal that they don't have the card. But don't overdo the logic, your opponent could make mistake too ;)

Delver decks: [1] if you don't know which delver, between [1] and [2] if it's BUG (trust your gut feeling: do they have an abrupt or a push)? I often pick 2 as it doesn't shut my own Swords.

Show&Tell: pretty much always [3], except rare cases if you somehow suspect a Pyroclasm or a naked Sneak Attack. Some weird people still play the [12]-mana sorcery that draws the deck, but this is very unlikely.

Miracles: [1] if you don't have a Mom and [6] if you do. If you have Mom+Teeg, go for 3 and lock them out pretty much completely.

Nic Fit: [3], [3], [3]. Yeah, they might have an AD, they might have Cabal Therapy, but with no information just name [3]. They often don't run much non-PD removal. If it's the Jund combo Scapeshift version, or Jund Punishing Fire version, [2] can be a decent pick too. But [3] is still decent since Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge send our deck to oblivion.

Burn: trust your gut. Before sideboard, often [6] is a good idea since it finishes many games real quick, but [2] can be also decent if your manabase feels icky to Price of Progress. Naming [1] is usually not so interesting since they often have already played their 1-drops by the time your play Prelate, and many people try to minimize 1-drops, especially non-creature, due to the popularity of Miracles. After sideboard, [2] is almost always a best pick, since they very often bring in 4x Smash to Smithereens and extra Searing Blazes.

Pox: [2], couldn't go wrong with that.

Infect: This one's tricky. [1] is pretty much the obvious choice, but [3] can be also decent if you rely on a Swords in your hand. Remember that they can kill us with the infect land or unblockable creature and a couple of Hierarchs without even casting anything.

Storm: before sideboard, [2] seems like a neat pick, against both versions: it shuts AD and their every wincon except a natural draw of lots of Dark Rituals (not Cabal Rituals!) and Ad Nauseum/Past in Flames, which is unlikely. Post-board, due to Massacre, [4] is a better option unless you've got a Teeg incoming.

Eldrazi: [2] to lock out chalice-for-1, post-board you can also name [3] for Dismember or [7] for All is Dust, but it's best to just side them out.

Dragon Stompy: [4] unless you have some kind of information that could suggest a better number.

Merfolk: [5] for Force or [2] for Jitte and Daze. Overall, quite useless, side them out.

Goblins: useless, can name [1] for Tarfire and Vials but be sure not to screw yourself with the Swords.

Bant: [1].

BUG control: [2], unless you sense a Liliana. If this is a cascade version, [0] for Ancestral Visions is a very decent pick too.

Loam/Lands: [2].

Reanimator: I personally prefer to name [2], as they have 8x 2-mana reanimations and 4x 1-mana ones. Also shuts AD and Collective Brutality.

Aluren, Dredge: [4].

Food Chain: [3].

Elves: padawan jedi sense you should train. [4] is natural not to die next turn from a Natural Order, but a good Glimpse could be easily stopped by a [1]. If you can Zenith for Teeg the turn after, locking both seems like a good idea, the order is up to your senses.

Goblin Charbelcher / Oops, All Spells: congrats, if the game went on to you casting a Prelate then something terrible happened to your opponent's hands. Either way, can't go wrong with a [4].

Hope it helps! Please don't hesitate to correct me if you think I'm wrong somewhere, or add ideas.

[NEELEY]

I think that these past couple of days the Maverick community has been coming together to voice their opinions about this specific deck. I've been playing the deck extensively for a year now. I've been grinding a lot of Legacy Classics and nearby 1Ks. I even started a WordPress about Maverick and shared my reports with the deck (I'm still trying to work out the kinks as far as wordpress, but I am planning on writing more about the deck). I am on the perspective to say that MTGO results don't always reflect paper magic, so at first glance, I am hesitant to try out NEELYs list. (I do not believe that having a stock list will have a higher chance of beating Miracles flat out).

Fundamentally speaking, we are a mid-range deck playing against a Control deck that has prison elements. We don't have the best matchup with the deck, we can all agree with that statement, however, it is not unbeatable. I have not seen enough suggestions are far as drawing more cards or slowing Miracles down from drawing cards. I've been on leovold for a while now and it has been a major pain in the butt for Miracles. The times that I won against Miracles was when I had either a Dark Confidant in play, a Tireless tracker in play with enough clues to crack to draw more cards, Thrun+SoLas, and a very few times DRS activations.

I participated in the SCG Worcester last minute (I was sponsored by BMG to play). I know that I made major misplays, and my deck isn't no where I want it to be, but I had fun, and the games that I lost where very close.
3x DRS
3x Mother of Runes
2x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliqury
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Renegade Railler

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Lirbary

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canpoy
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Plains
1x Forest


SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ehtersoworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Surgical Extracation
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Qasli Pridgemage
1x Pithing Needle

At the end of 9 Rounds. I went 5-4 for my first Legacy Open. Lost to Burn, UW Stoneblade, DnT, and Miracles. Won aganist Burn, Burn, BR Reanimator, Death and Taxes, and Miracles.

Okay I think it's funny that you say that you are hesitant to play my list. Myself and Jj Garlock have played Maverick for years now and travel together so we have talked a lot about our list here is some of our results in paper with Maverick and they are all pretty much the "stock list".

Here is Jj results I could fine
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?p_first=JJ&p_last=Garlock

Here are my results which only include a couple good finished with Maverick, I have been on Aggro Loam since the Findlay IQ. Ignore Daniel Neeley, it isn't me. http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?p_first=Dan&p_last=Neeley

The stock list is well tuned, we don't like to play cute things because we want to be consistent.

I almost don't remember not top 32ing or at least having a winning record playing at the local classics(Ohio and Indiana). You don't see this from the results but I have a great win percentage in the SCG's I played in. I know I found my name on the list when someone posted people's win loss record and win % on twitter. What I'm trying to say if you want consistency and good results don't play cards like collected company.

[menloe]

I think that these past couple of days the Maverick community has been coming together to voice their opinions about this specific deck. I've been playing the deck extensively for a year now. I've been grinding a lot of Legacy Classics and nearby 1Ks. I even started a WordPress about Maverick and shared my reports with the deck (I'm still trying to work out the kinks as far as wordpress, but I am planning on writing more about the deck).

You got a link to the Wordpress? I'd love to read it.

[aspsnake]

You got a link to the Wordpress? I'd love to read it.

I have no idea, but I think he is referring to https://mtgmaverick.wordpress.com/.

[menloe]

I have no idea, but I think he is referring to https://mtgmaverick.wordpress.com/.

Cheers!

[Thunderknight]

I have no idea, but I think he is referring to https://mtgmaverick.wordpress.com/.



Yes, thats the link. I felt that it would be cool to have something similar to thraben university but for Maverick. I haven't updated since that tournament. But I have previous TRs on my previous laptop.

@NEELY: I acknowledge your perspective about consistency. However I feel that because the meta is shifting to a non-delver
meta, the deck should shift as well.

There is a Legacy GPT that's coming up this Saturday. I will run your list (no CC, no Leovold, none of that, however some SB cards needs to,be change in correspondence to the store's meta). I will write a TR and post it on my blog.

[NEELEY]

@ thunderknight

What is the meta like? A lot of combo, miracles or 4c piles?

[Thunderknight]

What is the meta like? A lot of combo, miracles or 4c piles?

It honestly depends who shpws up.I expect their to be fair decks (DnT and shardless), BR Reanimator. And Trinisphere decks (Mono red, Lands, Etc)

[Luthiereisfun]

I think my main contention with collected company at this point is that the matchups is best in imo are against value packed BUG/4C decks and Miracles. However I think GSZ is also just as good in those matchups. So to replace GSZ with CC is like trying to fix what's not broken.

I have heard people say that CC can complement GSZ but I don't think it really fills the same role. The power of GSZ is in card selection, not outright value.

Beyond the matchups where value would be good, against combo decks CC is terrible. GSZ is a fine card to find T2 gaddock teeg etc. off a T1 dork against decks like storm or to find QP mage against sneak attack/omni. It's also good in grabbing scavenging ooze/drs in the matchups it matters.

My last point about CC is that though most of the time it hits and can be insane you do have times where it whiffs or in the mid to late game you just flashed in EOT DRS which for 4 mana is underwhelming. It's a drawback to a card that is already pushing it.

When CC first came out I desperately wanted it to work. It sometimes works beautifully which makes the card feel justified. But on an overall scale it just costs too much for an effect that can whiff and can be crap to variance.

I think if you want to go the value route planeswalkers are your best bet. They are more consistent and even though they allow time for you opponent to re-act you know if they stick they can start to take over the game turn after turn.

[EkajArmstro]

Hey everyone this is my first post here I wanted to say that this deck is super fun to play -- so much so that it makes me not want to play any other deck or format.

I've been trying a variety of things on and off for the past year, and for now I've settled on a maindeck that is 5 cards different from Dan's "stock" list. I'm definitely not trying to claim my changes are good, but I really like them.

-2nd Bayou
-Gaea's Cradle
+Thespian's Stage
+Dark Depths
Part of this change is cost -- a 2nd Bayou and a Gaea's Cradle are expensive. But besides that, even if it makes the deck worse and less consistent on average, I enjoy having the combo because it lets you win games that you otherwise would have no chance of winning.

-4th Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-4th Mother of Runes
+Tireless Tracker
+Titania, Protector of Argoth
I really don't like seeing Mother of Runes or Thalia in duplicates. I realize that I should be playing 4 for consistency and also so I can replace them when they die, but I'd rather run fun GSZ targets.
I'm not sold on Tireless Tracker and it would be the first card I would change if I were to change anything, but I'm still trying it out.
Titania has won me many games. It's a dead card unless the game goes long, but having a tutorable card that can win many late games is awesome.

-Sword of Light and Shadow
+2nd Sylvan Library
I tried Sword of Light and Shadow for awhile but I was not impressed. I'm willing to believe I was just playing it wrong, but I don't think I ever got value off of its return a creature ability because I never seem to have creatures in my graveyard. Also, one time I got wrecked because it protected my own creature from my own mother of runes so that sucks :)
I love having two Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck -- if they weren't so bad in duplicates I would run 4 but I personally would want to see 1 in every single matchup.

[NEELEY]

Hey everyone this is my first post here I wanted to say that this deck is super fun to play -- so much so that it makes me not want to play any other deck or format.

I've been trying a variety of things on and off for the past year, and for now I've settled on a maindeck that is 5 cards different from Dan's "stock" list. I'm definitely not trying to claim my changes are good, but I really like them.

-2nd Bayou
-Gaea's Cradle
+Thespian's Stage
+Dark Depths
Part of this change is cost -- a 2nd Bayou and a Gaea's Cradle are expensive. But besides that, even if it makes the deck worse and less consistent on average, I enjoy having the combo because it lets you win games that you otherwise would have no chance of winning.

-4th Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-4th Mother of Runes
+Tireless Tracker
+Titania, Protector of Argoth
I really don't like seeing Mother of Runes or Thalia in duplicates. I realize that I should be playing 4 for consistency and also so I can replace them when they die, but I'd rather run fun GSZ targets.
I'm not sold on Tireless Tracker and it would be the first card I would change if I were to change anything, but I'm still trying it out.
Titania has won me many games. It's a dead card unless the game goes long, but having a tutorable card that can win many late games is awesome.

-Sword of Light and Shadow
+2nd Sylvan Library
I tried Sword of Light and Shadow for awhile but I was not impressed. I'm willing to believe I was just playing it wrong, but I don't think I ever got value off of its return a creature ability because I never seem to have creatures in my graveyard. Also, one time I got wrecked because it protected my own creature from my own mother of runes so that sucks :)
I love having two Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck -- if they weren't so bad in duplicates I would run 4 but I personally would want to see 1 in every single matchup.

The combo is fine and probably wins you some games. But, realistically I have won so many games with cradle and can have absurd turns. I preach consistency, I want to do well, cute cards are fun but if you want to give yourself the best chances to win I wouldn't. I have played 2 library a lot but I felt like adding main deck decay that I had to cut 1. Sword of light and shadow is the 2nd best sword and goes great against decay, stoneforge decks. Also reoccurring pridemage is amazing. Thalia and Mothers are too good not to play 4, sorry!

[lavafrogg]

The combo is fine and probably wins you some games. But, realistically I have won so many games with cradle and can have absurd turns. I preach consistency, I want to do well, cute cards are fun but if you want to give yourself the best chances to win I wouldn't. I have played 2 library a lot but I felt like adding main deck decay that I had to cut 1. Sword of light and shadow is the 2nd best sword and goes great against decay, stoneforge decks. Also reoccurring pridemage is amazing. Thalia and Mothers are too good not to play 4, sorry!

I have also never been a fan of the combo off of knight play. If you have an active knight of the Reliquary, you win, especially with the dumb things that cradle can power.

Sword of light and shadow is for swords to plowshares matchups and the combo with Pridemage, which is my favorite hatebear.

[Thunderknight]

I think my main contention with collected company at this point is that the matchups is best in imo are against value packed BUG/4C decks and Miracles. However I think GSZ is also just as good in those matchups. So to replace GSZ with CC is like trying to fix what's not broken.

I have heard people say that CC can complement GSZ but I don't think it really fills the same role. The power of GSZ is in card selection, not outright value.

Beyond the matchups where value would be good, against combo decks CC is terrible. GSZ is a fine card to find T2 gaddock teeg etc. off a T1 dork against decks like storm or to find QP mage against sneak attack/omni. It's also good in grabbing scavenging ooze/drs in the matchups it matters.

My last point about CC is that though most of the time it hits and can be insane you do have times where it whiffs or in the mid to late game you just flashed in EOT DRS which for 4 mana is underwhelming. It's a drawback to a card that is already pushing it.

When CC first came out I desperately wanted it to work. It sometimes works beautifully which makes the card feel justified. But on an overall scale it just costs too much for an effect that can whiff and can be crap to variance.

I think if you want to go the value route planeswalkers are your best bet. They are more consistent and even though they allow time for you opponent to re-act you know if they stick they can start to take over the game turn after turn.

I can understand that justification. When I resolved company, the creatures that it spat out won me games the that i knew I was dead. As someone who also wants company to be a justifable card, I think it requires a slight adjustment.

[TMagpie]

The combo is fine and probably wins you some games. But, realistically I have won so many games with cradle and can have absurd turns. I preach consistency, I want to do well, cute cards are fun but if you want to give yourself the best chances to win I wouldn't. I have played 2 library a lot but I felt like adding main deck decay that I had to cut 1. Sword of light and shadow is the 2nd best sword and goes great against decay, stoneforge decks. Also reoccurring pridemage is amazing. Thalia and Mothers are too good not to play 4, sorry!

I have actually had the opposite experience with Cradle in the context of consistency. The games where I have 2-4 creatures that makes Cradle great I would be winning regardless. Cradle just gets super bad if you have 0-1 creatures in play--which is often in games 2-3. The great thing about the Depths combo is that even if they sweep the board twice in a game, a topdecked Green Sun's Zenith can still just make a 20/20 and win despite only have 1 creature in play.

Leaning on a card that only does something when you already have a developed board feels a bit meh in the context of "aiming for more consistency."

I do agree that the card is super powerful, and when you have a full board, adding a Cradle makes your strong position even stronger. The opposite is true for Depths where you only ever search for it when you're in a bad position. So when you're behind on board, or when they've stripped your graveyard, or if you have no evasion creature. When in a position where you need outs because you're behind--Depths gives you that out. Cradle needs for you to already have a bunch of stuff out and an equipment/scooze that is hopefully also out to abuse the mana with. However, you never mind searching for it with your KotR when you have a board presence already out there.

[lavafrogg]

I have actually had the opposite experience with Cradle in the context of consistency. The games where I have 2-4 creatures that makes Cradle great I would be winning regardless. Cradle just gets super bad if you have 0-1 creatures in play--which is often in games 2-3. The great thing about the Depths combo is that even if they sweep the board twice in a game, a topdecked Green Sun's Zenith can still just make a 20/20 and win despite only have 1 creature in play.

Leaning on a card that only does something when you already have a developed board feels a bit meh in the context of "aiming for more consistency."

I do agree that the card is super powerful, and when you have a full board, adding a Cradle makes your strong position even stronger. The opposite is true for Depths where you only ever search for it when you're in a bad position. So when you're behind on board, or when they've stripped your graveyard, or if you have no evasion creature. When in a position where you need outs because you're behind--Depths gives you that out. Cradle needs for you to already have a bunch of stuff out and an equipment/scooze that is hopefully also out to abuse the mana with. However, you never mind searching for it with your KotR when you have a board presence already out there.

From a power standpoint, Gaea's Cradle is one of the(if not the) most powerful cards in the format, being able to fetch, play and equip a sword or jitte in the same turn can be back breaking and can be used to rebuild after removal or two up the velocity to win before a sweeper, lock or combo.

The Dark Depths combo is going to specifically be good against decks where the board will stall. Getting an active Knight for two turns is game winning no matter what he is fetching/doing. We can all come up with situations where one would be better than the other, but Maverick already has ways to beat board stalls ie Mom/Swords to where having the ability to slam on the accelerator should be much more effective/needed.


Hi,

that's a very interesting approach! I would personally play 2x mb +1x sb, as there are much more than D&T where Sanctum is not-so-amazing, including Maverick and decks with 1,2,3-cost removal. There are decks like RUG delver though that get obliterated by this card if it resolves. I would even consider playing 2x Caverns (Hierarchs are humans, huh), since with Prelates they aid to throw delver decks from the roof.

I also think that in your particular version Hierarchs are justifiable. They are really bad to -1/-1 effects and forked bolts, but you can just lock those effects out with Prelates. Additionally, since Sanctum Prelates are very bad fighters, Hierarchs compensate for that, giving them +x/+x when attacking. But watch out for graveyard strategies: I see that you play 3x Faerie Macabre in sb, but I'd in your place diversify the hate a bit.

Another thing I would strongly consider playing in your list is the Thespian Stage + Dark Depths combo. In e.g. Death & Taxes matchup, it makes Prelates very valuable: you can turn off Swords and kill them with the combo if they are not expecting it. Same for Miracles.

Now a drop of criticism. I'd play Garruk over Gideon honestly. Another thing I really disagree with is B/G sword in the place of U/R: what are you even doing against a Fish? Once resolved, True-name just wins the game if you don't have an U/R Sword and/or Zealous Persecutions. If I were you, I'd also add 1-2 Council's Judgements to sb to have some extra Fish protection post-board. It also helps against a huge variety of things.

I made a slightly alternative take on your deck here: https://deckstats.net/deck-12830141-021d1c01282762724c428c05b4872712.html, might give it a try.

Now, a short guide to naming stuff with Prelate:

It's quite important that your opponent can respond to Prelate. If they have a Brainstorm in hand and you are likely to name [1], they will probably respond with it. If they have an Abrupt Decay and you are likely to name [2], they might just kill something on your field. If they don't respond, it might be a signal that they don't have the card. But don't overdo the logic, your opponent could make mistake too ;)

Delver decks: [1] if you don't know which delver, between [1] and [2] if it's BUG (trust your gut feeling: do they have an abrupt or a push)? I often pick 2 as it doesn't shut my own Swords.

Show&Tell: pretty much always [3], except rare cases if you somehow suspect a Pyroclasm or a naked Sneak Attack. Some weird people still play the [12]-mana sorcery that draws the deck, but this is very unlikely.

Miracles: [1] if you don't have a Mom and [6] if you do. If you have Mom+Teeg, go for 3 and lock them out pretty much completely.

Nic Fit: [3], [3], [3]. Yeah, they might have an AD, they might have Cabal Therapy, but with no information just name [3]. They often don't run much non-PD removal. If it's the Jund combo Scapeshift version, or Jund Punishing Fire version, [2] can be a decent pick too. But [3] is still decent since Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge send our deck to oblivion.

Burn: trust your gut. Before sideboard, often [6] is a good idea since it finishes many games real quick, but [2] can be also decent if your manabase feels icky to Price of Progress. Naming [1] is usually not so interesting since they often have already played their 1-drops by the time your play Prelate, and many people try to minimize 1-drops, especially non-creature, due to the popularity of Miracles. After sideboard, [2] is almost always a best pick, since they very often bring in 4x Smash to Smithereens and extra Searing Blazes.

Pox: [2], couldn't go wrong with that.

Infect: This one's tricky. [1] is pretty much the obvious choice, but [3] can be also decent if you rely on a Swords in your hand. Remember that they can kill us with the infect land or unblockable creature and a couple of Hierarchs without even casting anything.

Storm: before sideboard, [2] seems like a neat pick, against both versions: it shuts AD and their every wincon except a natural draw of lots of Dark Rituals (not Cabal Rituals!) and Ad Nauseum/Past in Flames, which is unlikely. Post-board, due to Massacre, [4] is a better option unless you've got a Teeg incoming.

Eldrazi: [2] to lock out chalice-for-1, post-board you can also name [3] for Dismember or [7] for All is Dust, but it's best to just side them out.

Dragon Stompy: [4] unless you have some kind of information that could suggest a better number.

Merfolk: [5] for Force or [2] for Jitte and Daze. Overall, quite useless, side them out.

Goblins: useless, can name [1] for Tarfire and Vials but be sure not to screw yourself with the Swords.

Bant: [1].

BUG control: [2], unless you sense a Liliana. If this is a cascade version, [0] for Ancestral Visions is a very decent pick too.

Loam/Lands: [2].

Reanimator: I personally prefer to name [2], as they have 8x 2-mana reanimations and 4x 1-mana ones. Also shuts AD and Collective Brutality.

Aluren, Dredge: [4].

Food Chain: [3].

Elves: padawan jedi sense you should train. [4] is natural not to die next turn from a Natural Order, but a good Glimpse could be easily stopped by a [1]. If you can Zenith for Teeg the turn after, locking both seems like a good idea, the order is up to your senses.

Goblin Charbelcher / Oops, All Spells: congrats, if the game went on to you casting a Prelate then something terrible happened to your opponent's hands. Either way, can't go wrong with a [4].

Hope it helps! Please don't hesitate to correct me if you think I'm wrong somewhere, or add ideas.

Thank you so much for the in depth reply! I have been testing prelates all week and have been impressed. I cannot believe that the Maverick community as a whole has not embraced the new card. All of the slower combo decks immediately become even to favorable match ups with 3x prelate. Mom-Prelate shuts down food chain/aluren which can be difficult for straight maverick and prelates give you a way to almost pick apart an opponent Death and Taxes style.

Even in match-ups without tons of targets(obviously game 1) Prelate can be used to set up scenarios that are unbeatable for example an active knight with prelate on 1 to prevent swords to plowshares against DnT. Prelate on 3 with sword of feast and famine is almost unbeatable by BUG as they lose the ability to answer the sword.

Many match-ups have interesting creature combinations and prelate values that I am learning and still trying to figure out. The interaction with sword protection also makes the color/number combinations more interesting. i.e. prelate on 6 with a sword of light and shadow against miracles or the already mentioned prelate on 3/sword of feast and famine and I am sure that there are more combinations that need to be found.

Prelate on 2 is really good to block abrupt decay in order to get an active sword, and prelate on 1 is good against all of the cantrips in the format.

I went back to the Deathrites and upped the fetch count just to increased the turn 1 "hatebear" factor against certian graveyard decks. I havent had a problem with the fish as Mom is a beating against them and the swords I use blank their removal as well, with pridemage wrecking equipment the fish is just a 3/1 blocker against a Knight of the Reliquary. That being said, I added some sideboard respect for the fish.

Why would you play Garruk over Gideon? Gideon automatically makes a stream of 2/2's and can pump the whole team if allowed to live. He also is the fastest clock from a planeswalker against decks that have issues blocking as cracking in for 5 is no laughing matter.

Right now I am at:

Prelate Maverick

Creatures(25)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(22)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Boujka Bog
1 Council's Judgement

[Luthiereisfun]

From a power standpoint, Gaea's Cradle is one of the(if not the) most powerful cards in the format, being able to fetch, play and equip a sword or jitte in the same turn can be back breaking and can be used to rebuild after removal or two up the velocity to win before a sweeper, lock or combo.

The Dark Depths combo is going to specifically be good against decks where the board will stall. Getting an active Knight for two turns is game winning no matter what he is fetching/doing. We can all come up with situations where one would be better than the other, but Maverick already has ways to beat board stalls ie Mom/Swords to where having the ability to slam on the accelerator should be much more effective/needed.



Thank you so much for the in depth reply! I have been testing prelates all week and have been impressed. I cannot believe that the Maverick community as a whole has not embraced the new card. All of the slower combo decks immediately become even to favorable match ups with 3x prelate. Mom-Prelate shuts down food chain/aluren which can be difficult for straight maverick and prelates give you a way to almost pick apart an opponent Death and Taxes style.

Even in match-ups without tons of targets(obviously game 1) Prelate can be used to set up scenarios that are unbeatable for example an active knight with prelate on 1 to prevent swords to plowshares against DnT. Prelate on 3 with sword of feast and famine is almost unbeatable by BUG as they lose the ability to answer the sword.

Many match-ups have interesting creature combinations and prelate values that I am learning and still trying to figure out. The interaction with sword protection also makes the color/number combinations more interesting. i.e. prelate on 6 with a sword of light and shadow against miracles or the already mentioned prelate on 3/sword of feast and famine and I am sure that there are more combinations that need to be found.

Prelate on 2 is really good to block abrupt decay in order to get an active sword, and prelate on 1 is good against all of the cantrips in the format.

I went back to the Deathrites and upped the fetch count just to increased the turn 1 "hatebear" factor against certian graveyard decks. I havent had a problem with the fish as Mom is a beating against them and the swords I use blank their removal as well, with pridemage wrecking equipment the fish is just a 3/1 blocker against a Knight of the Reliquary. That being said, I added some sideboard respect for the fish.

Why would you play Garruk over Gideon? Gideon automatically makes a stream of 2/2's and can pump the whole team if allowed to live. He also is the fastest clock from a planeswalker against decks that have issues blocking as cracking in for 5 is no laughing matter.

Right now I am at:

Prelate Maverick

Creatures(25)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(22)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Boujka Bog
1 Council's Judgement

Gideon is a fine choice.

I would say the advantages to Garruk are his mana cost is much easier to hit then double white. He's more flexible in general as he is also removal and can flip to be a tutor effect and still make tokens. I wouldn't say either is strictly better but I think Garruk might suit Maverick a little better (I have won games being able to tutor for things like mother of runes, popped other annoying DRS etc..) . Both are solid. Garruk is definitely more fragile.

[TMagpie]

From a power standpoint, Gaea's Cradle is one of the(if not the) most powerful cards in the format, being able to fetch, play and equip a sword or jitte in the same turn can be back breaking and can be used to rebuild after removal or two up the velocity to win before a sweeper, lock or combo.

The Dark Depths combo is going to specifically be good against decks where the board will stall. Getting an active Knight for two turns is game winning no matter what he is fetching/doing. We can all come up with situations where one would be better than the other, but Maverick already has ways to beat board stalls ie Mom/Swords to where having the ability to slam on the accelerator should be much more effective/needed.



I don't disagree with your assessment on the power of each card, or the purpose of each card--I was merely pointing out that the myth that you run cradle for consistency is false. Both cards have pluses and minuses depending on what board state you like being ready for.

Cradle is great if you're hoping to have a bunch of dudes and you want to do things a turn faster. The card is bad if you don't have equipment or things to sink the mana into, and gets awful if they sweep the board.

Depths is great if you're worried they have sweepers or a heavy removal package or if you are the type of player who wants flexible outs to bad board position not normally available. But be prepared to have your mana base be slightly more awkward to fit this monster that you never want to search for (except when you're losing) into your 75.

Which being better "overall" is arbitrary and different people will give different reasons why their opinion is correct--I am not arguing against any of that.

If you really want "consistency" then you'd run neither and opt for something more bland, but flexible--like a Tower of the Magistrate, or a Cavern of Souls, etc... Something that gives mana untapped and has some bonus on top of that. One that doesn't care if you're ahead or behind. But I am of the opinion that Maverick can't afford to not run inconsistent (but powerful) cards. Cradle is one of those cards, depths is another.

I do believe we are in agreement on the power of both cards. Lets just leave it at that.

[Claymore]

I think Punishing Maverick needs to take a hard look at the 5cc warrior that was revealed, plus the Red Mentor. Both seem very good here.

[TMagpie]

I think Punishing Maverick needs to take a hard look at the 5cc warrior that was revealed, plus the Red Mentor. Both seem very good here.

This is a more general question; when making Punishing Macverick, what stops you from going full Aggro Loam?

[Warden]

This is a more general question; when making Punishing Macverick, what stops you from going full Aggro Loam?

Threat density. I playtested it hard a while back (Pre-GP NJ) and felt I just lost the game if my 1-2 threats died.
I liked having Thalia instead of Chalice, etc, etc.

Punishing Maverick's worst situation is that you need to cut Thalia 1.0 from the list. But she's so ridiculous right now lol. In the right room, you could make the decision that pfires > thalia but for a large scale event I'd lean on Thalia all the way.

[lavafrogg]

How often do you guys find yourself chain wastelanding with Knight?

Most of the time, I find him as a big beater/wall and not much else... I know he is one of the reasons the deck exists but I am currently questioning his usefulness in the current meta.

[Luthiereisfun]

How often do you guys find yourself chain wastelanding with Knight?

Most of the time, I find him as a big beater/wall and not much else... I know he is one of the reasons the deck exists but I am currently questioning his usefulness in the current meta.

I think Knight is super important. Aside from trying to get an equipment online she's the only real heavyweight creature we pack. I don't always go to chain wastelands but I have had enough games where I have and it's pretty much led me to victory. If knight is small it's at the very least a good way to interact with them and start growing her.

To me there are enough gurmag angler/eldrazi/goyf etc.. that having a creature to compete with them in terms of P/T is very important.

The other huge thing about Knight for me is karakas. Having knight makes marit large feel much less scary and decks like show and tell rely off either A) setting up sneak attack with multiple red sources or B) relying on Omni.

I would never cut Knight personally.

[Warden]

How often do you guys find yourself chain wastelanding with Knight?

Most of the time, I find him as a big beater/wall and not much else... I know he is one of the reasons the deck exists but I am currently questioning his usefulness in the current meta.

Please don't take this as flaming, but I don't think you're playing the deck correctly. KotR is the best creature in the deck and it has been nothing short of amazing.
Read the pages of this thread to get a better idea of what to play/sequence. 9 times out of 10 I am wasteland-ing the opponent prior to attacking with her. On rare occasion (especially if topdecking in the late-game), she switches to pure aggro to finish off a depleted opponent.

What is your current list? I just did well a few weeks ago with Vial-Maverick.

[lavafrogg]

Please don't take this as flaming, but I don't think you're playing the deck correctly. KotR is the best creature in the deck and it has been nothing short of amazing.
Read the pages of this thread to get a better idea of what to play/sequence. 9 times out of 10 I am wasteland-ing the opponent prior to attacking with her. On rare occasion (especially if topdecking in the late-game), she switches to pure aggro to finish off a depleted opponent.

What is your current list? I just did well a few weeks ago with Vial-Maverick.

I don't take the response as flaming, I understand what I posted will be met with harsh criticism but as I stated, I have not felt that Knight is as effective as she has been in the past.

I do not need explainations on why she is good or her uses, I have played with/against her since she began seeing play. I have several top 8's with Punishing Mav and more top 8 finishes with Knight in Junk lists.

My statement currently is that the only time I really wish I had Knight was when I needed Karakas. Usually in close games I am searching for Scooze/Equipment/Pridemage.

Honestly though, it was just a question trying to explore options.

[Megadeus]

It's been a couple months now since I've played the deck, but I've cut down to 3 knights at times and I think tracker is not horrible at times as well. But I've never really thought knight was actively not good. I can't imagine what you replace him with.

[lavafrogg]

It's been a couple months now since I've played the deck, but I've cut down to 3 knights at times and I think tracker is not horrible at times as well. But I've never really thought knight was actively not good. I can't imagine what you replace him with.

Death and Taxes is a tier 1 deck and has been the best version of Wx aggro for a few years now. If people are migrating towards GW Vial Maverick, at that point they need to realize they are just playing a worse version of Death and Taxes. That being said, Wx creature decks have received a ton of new tools recently that Maverick has failed to incorporate into any successful list.

I have been testing 3x Sanctum Prelates recently to great promise and I am trying to look for other cards that we have let pass us by.

Mirran Crusader is obviously huge right now with the surge of BGu Leovold decks, Recruiter of the Guard could help keep our tutor count high if we replace Knight, she also gives us many more options starting turn 2 seeing how we want a turn 1 ramp effect every game.

A future fear is the new Harsh Mentor card that will shock the entire format(pun intended) including BGx, DnT and Miracles, we will get residual damage as Knight/Shaman/Mom/Equipment/Pridemage will all trigger the effect, the easiest response would be to go back to punishing Maverick and just play the bugger ourselves... but punishing fire looks pretty silly against Leovold/TNN.

Essentially, I am saying that I feel the core of the deck is:

Mom
Thalia
Stoneforge
GSZ

and after that point things start to get weird.

[aspsnake]

Threat density. I playtested it hard a while back (Pre-GP NJ) and felt I just lost the game if my 1-2 threats died.
I liked having Thalia instead of Chalice, etc, etc.

Punishing Maverick's worst situation is that you need to cut Thalia 1.0 from the list. But she's so ridiculous right now lol. In the right room, you could make the decision that pfires > thalia but for a large scale event I'd lean on Thalia all the way.

There have been some successful builds with 3 Thalia + 3 Pushfires. Yes, it might sound completely counter-intuitive, and like hurting yourself, but it actually still works. You just don't play Thalia if you're facing a creature deck and want to have your removal engine going efficiently, and you pay {1} more to kill Delvers and Shamans.

[Thunderknight]

I went 3-0 last night with NEELY's list with some modifications.

Rd 1 - Aggro Loam
Rd 2 - 4c Delver
Rd 3 - Death and Taxes.

[aspsnake]

I went 3-0 last night with NEELY's list with some modifications.

Rd 1 - Aggro Loam
Rd 2 - 4c Delver
Rd 3 - Death and Taxes.

Good job! Although I think all 3 matchups you faced are favorable for Maverick :)

[NEELEY]

I went 3-0 last night with NEELY's list with some modifications.

Rd 1 - Aggro Loam
Rd 2 - 4c Delver
Rd 3 - Death and Taxes.

Sweet! What changes, from my latest list I cut the 2 orbs and playing an additional needle and 1 surgical.

[Warden]

Sweet! What changes, from my latest list I cut the 2 orbs and playing an additional needle and 1 surgical.

How's needle been for you? I ran revokers and felt they were unnecessary. Needles don't help me against decks I need them to (ie; I still lose to miracles, get blown out by NicFit, and struggle with Lands).

[NEELEY]

How's needle been for you? I ran revokers and felt they were unnecessary. Needles don't help me against decks I need them to (ie; I still lose to miracles, get blown out by NicFit, and struggle with Lands).

Well I've played 2 leagues and am 8-2 losing to Omni and eldrazi. Beat miracles 3 times, they were good and also good vs decks like sneak and show and reanimator. They do what I want in those matchups.

Edit:the loss with Omni was my own fault putting in canonist when most likely just putting a fatty in. I had zenith in hand and a couple of dorks I could of played and able to get more than 6 permenants to survive and emrakul hit

[pettdan]

I went 3-1 in the local weekly legacy event playing an experimental build with 2 Vials, 3 GSZ's, 2 Confidants (maybe I should just play extra Trackers, I feel like I want extra card draw due to the Vials anyway), 3 KotR's, 2 Stoneforge, 3 Equipment, 1 Titania. Something like that. Thought I wouldn't comment on it yet, but oh well, it's fun so why not. If I have some success with it I'll post a list.

R1 vs Mardu Stoneblade 2-0: I was simply drawing better
R2 vs Storm 0-2: G1 was a mulligan to 3 due to no lands (and I knew the first hand with lands, Vial, Confidant and some other beater wouldn't be good enough vs him). I managed to get Stoneforge + Sword of F&I and hit him down to 13 before he Ad Nauseamed successfully. Was about to t2 choke in G2 locking down his U.Sea but he had Petal and a second Therapy for double first turn interaction. With him almost empty handed I drew 4 consecutive lands and lost that game (too).
R3 vs Burn 2-1: KotR instrumental in winning G1, allowing me to equip Jitte and start gaining life.
R4 vs Bant Stoneblade 2-0: Vial + Tracker drew me a lot of cards G1, and he didn't find artifact removal for my equipments. Titania was instrumental in winning a game that looked lost, opponent had Scryb Ranger with equipped Jitte and an active Mother around turn 3 and I had no artifact removal. I managed to get half a dozen 5/3 tokens in from Titania and double Wastelands.

[Oathbreakers]

Well I've played 2 leagues and am 8-2 losing to Omni and eldrazi. Beat miracles 3 times, they were good and also good vs decks like sneak and show and reanimator. They do what I want in those matchups.

Edit:the loss with Omni was my own fault putting in canonist when most likely just putting a fatty in. I had zenith in hand and a couple of dorks I could of played and able to get more than 6 permenants to survive and emrakul hit

When Facing Miracles what do you take out? I normally go -4 Knight -1 Scooze. I play a pretty stock list except I'm on a 3/3 Split of Swords/Decays in the MD.

[Thunderknight]

Sweet! What changes, from my latest list I cut the 2 orbs and playing an additional needle and 1 surgical.

I drop the two orbs for a surgical and Nissa, Vital Force.
I'm also not really 100% on the 4th mom. Don't get me wrong. She's incredible annoying to deal with from,the opponent side, but now the Walking Ballista is a dominating card in BUG chain, with Miracles running E.Es, 4c Value Pile running all the edicts, what's the only reason why to run the 4th mom? Maybe I'm not seeing that perspective anymore now that grixis Delver doesn't see a ton of play. I ran a 3rd Stoneforge instead and it made the games much more in favor because each subsequent S.M grew more powerful over the game.

[NEELEY]

When Facing Miracles what do you take out? I normally go -4 Knight -1 Scooze. I play a pretty stock list except I'm on a 3/3 Split of Swords/Decays in the MD.

Look at my latest list I did well with except the extra needle is the only think relevant.

Bring in 1 teeg, 1 pridemage, 2 Choke, 1 garruk, 2 needle

Remove 3-4 swords depending on mentor, I like to leave 1 or 2 if they are playing it. -1 ooze, -2 kotr, on the draw i sometime shave a gsz if I leave a swords in.

[NEELEY]

I drop the two orbs for a surgical and Nissa, Vital Force.
I'm also not really 100% on the 4th mom. Don't get me wrong. She's incredible annoying to deal with from,the opponent side, but now the Walking Ballista is a dominating card in BUG chain, with Miracles running E.Es, 4c Value Pile running all the edicts, what's the only reason why to run the 4th mom? Maybe I'm not seeing that perspective anymore now that grixis Delver doesn't see a ton of play. I ran a 3rd Stoneforge instead and it made the games much more in favor because each subsequent S.M grew more powerful over the game.

The reason to run 4 moms is she is great in fair match ups and is the best way to protect teeg or Thalia with combo and miracles. Don't leave home without 4 of her. But everyone is able to play what they want. I dont feel like I need another walker sometime garruk is hard enough to cast.

[TMagpie]

I've only ever sided out KotR against Burn--I've never tried doing it versus Miracles. What's the logic and is t worth trying out?

Ie, what convinced you guys to do it and has it improved your matchup?

[Megadeus]

I've only ever sided out KotR against Burn--I've never tried doing it versus Miracles. What's the logic and is t worth trying out?

Ie, what convinced you guys to do it and has it improved your matchup?

Why would you side it out against burn? A 4/4 is really hard for them to remove and it protects you from price.

[NEELEY]

I've only ever sided out KotR against Burn--I've never tried doing it versus Miracles. What's the logic and is t worth trying out?

Ie, what convinced you guys to do it and has it improved your matchup?

First, don't side out KOTR against burn. It is the only thing that doesn't die to a single burn spell and knight beats are real.

The reason i side out a Knight or two is because it doesn't have much utility in the match up and cost three mana. I want to play cards that can disrupt them like teeg, mom, thalia and pridemage. KOTR doesn't fit in there to do that.

[TMagpie]

Why would you side it out against burn? A 4/4 is really hard for them to remove and it protects you from price.

I side out -4 Knight -1 Dark Depths for +2 Sanctum Prelate (on the play)/+2 Decay (On the draw), +1 Teeg, +1 Scooze, +1 Pridemage

[Skizz]

Hey!

today i took Maverick to another 3:1 at a local Event
beat Infect, Food Chain, Aggro Loam - lost against Julian23s Elves

(at the last Event i also went 3:1 beating Show and Tell, Elves, BR Reanimator but lost against Burn)

heres my stock list which i play for quite a while now. (i play this deck through the last 5 years now)
unfortunatly i have no mtgo, so im not able to test as much as i want... :rolleyes:

Maindeck:
2 Forrest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaeas Cradle
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scrybranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasal Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2-3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
0-1 Sanctum Prelate

i have 3 Flex Slots at the Moment which are 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar and 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Thalia Heretic Cathar on the Play is a real hatebear which can slow down the Opponent a lot
Sigarda is probably the best flying Monster which saves your Team from Lilliana or Anhilator, also cant be removed too easy.

if someone ask me to change something i would maybe say: take out Thalia 2.0 and Sigarda for 2 Abrupt Decays and a Batterskull for a more streamlined Version...
but in General i im not a big fan of SFM/Package

one good Thing about the maindeck is that its straight GW with a solid manabase.
the 2 black sources are enough to cast the Sideboard Cards.

I cut the thoughtseizes completely in the Sideboard because in the last months it was the Card which i never played. (does anyone Play storm? :confused: )
instead added more flexible Cards like Reclamation sage, Containment Priest and Sanctum Prelate which are ooooook.
i will squeeze a Krosan Grip somewhere in the Sideboard because of the many Food chain decks around

in a meta full of Leovolds i think sylvan library is not that good as it was... tested mirris guile but thats also mehhh :rolleyes:

i definitely bring this to MKM Frankfurt..... and afterwards i will spent some time brewing on a punishing maverick list after Amonkeht.:smile:

[NEELEY]

Don't randomly quote the person directly above you. Especially not such long posts. -Julian23

I like the list, with miracles being popular, I like to keep abrupt decay main and want to be better at casting it and the reason I'm running 2 bayou. Death and Taxes is super popular and the main reason I won't even consider running the new Thalia, sucks playing vs multiple Karakas. Thoughtseize is a card I feel we need against combo in general and wouldn't leave home without 3. Obviously if you are playing mostly local events metagame dictates are card choices.

[Thunderknight]

I decided to play my LGS 1K instead. Got 14th place with a record of 2-2-1.

Rd 1 - Drew with Death and Taxes
Rd 2 - lost to Alluren
Rd 3 - won aganist Death and Taxes
Rd 4 - won aganist Merfolk
Rd 5 - lost to Sea Stompy (deck runs 2 Mb jittes)

I was also on camera. Look up twitch/snapcasters. Check them out for full play by play. tournament report will be up by tomorrow night.

[lavafrogg]

Random musing for tonight, could we replace GSZ with recruiter of the guard straight up? Cavern of Souls becomes immediately better with the majority of the deck being human including our tutors.

[TMagpie]

Random musing for tonight, could we replace GSZ with recruiter of the guard straight up? Cavern of Souls becomes immediately better with the majority of the deck being human including our tutors.

Abzan Humans with 3-4 Caverns is definitely something Iv'e thought about

[DoomRabbit]

Went 2-2 on Friday night.
Beat Miracles and BUG control, then lost to Sneak and Show and Mono-red Sneak Attack.
Lessons learned:
- A well timed choke is back breaking vs Miracles, that's how I won the two post-sideboard games.
- The sneak and show matchup feels pretty miserable. Griselbrand we have the tools to beat, but Emrakul is karakas or bust. I've also not played the matchup much at all, so it's possible I'm playing it wrong.

[pettdan]

Pithing Needle for Sneak Attack and KotR into Karakas for Show and Tell. Sneak Attack is a bit expensive to cast into Thalia and Wastelands. Maverick in my experience has an ok matchup, Omniscience can be troublesome though [and so can Blood Moon, shutting off Karakas]. Thoughtseize in the sb is important too. Nothing new I guess? Titania wins on the swing back after annihilator trigger... Anecdotally (is it a word), I won two matches against Sneak n Show at GP Prague (one of the two larger events I've attended).

Edit: one more important thing, Gaddock Teeg stops Sneak Attack and FoW making it possible to StP Griselbrand. Probably boarding out StP's anyway but G1. Watch out for Kozilek's Return in sideboarded games.

[Rampart]

I decided to play my LGS 1K instead. Got 14th place with a record of 2-2-1.

Rd 1 - Drew with Death and Taxes
Rd 2 - lost to Alluren
Rd 3 - won aganist Death and Taxes
Rd 4 - won aganist Merfolk
Rd 5 - lost to Sea Stompy (deck runs 2 Mb jittes)

I was also on camera. Look up twitch/snapcasters. Check them out for full play by play. tournament report will be up by tomorrow night.

It's 3 mb jittes and it's on skyship gaming. Sorry

[Thunderknight]

It's 3 mb jittes and it's on skyship gaming. Sorry

Yeah your right.

[Luthiereisfun]

I regards to the Sneak and show matchup I think show and tell and sneak attack are quite manageable. Thalia, Karakas, Teeg, Pridemage can all give them headaches, and hopefully enough time for us to play beat down.

Omniscience however seems to absolutely wreck us.

[Thunderknight]

I regards to the Sneak and show matchup I think show and tell and sneak attack are quite manageable. Thalia, Karakas, Teeg, Pridemage can all give them headaches, and hopefully enough time for us to play beat down.

Omniscience however seems to absolutely wreck us.

wasn't that the reason reclamation sage/obliviion ring was in the SB?

[Luthiereisfun]

wasn't that the reason reclamation sage/obliviion ring was in the SB?

Yes. From what I can tell the SnS lists are kind of doing a hybrid of the normal show and tell, Sneak and Omni?

If they land Omni it's bad but I think miles better then mono U omnitell

[NEELEY]

The biggest thing I try to manage is not to play a threat like KOTR just to get forced. I try to get them to force cards like Thalia and GSZ. The needles in the board have been great. I like 3-4 thoughtseize along all the other great cards vs them. Sneak and Show feels pretty favored to me as long as they don't show on turn one or two. Usually can manage your life above 15 and survive an Emrakul hit and kill them on the swing back.

[TMagpie]

The biggest weakness that is exploited in the show and Tell matchup is that their fast kill of S&T => Emrakul is hard countered by a Knight of the Reliquary. This slows them down in games 2-3 because they begin to play against you the same way they play against Reanimator--that slower play plus your hatebears quiickyl stifles them out of the game, or forces their hand into a Karakas.

The reason Omnishow is so much harder is that they can be more reckless without fearing Karakas.

[Megadeus]

I've lost to so many show and tell players that just jam show and tell turn 1 and win because I just didn't have it because they're apes who play around nothing

[Luthiereisfun]

well I have finally come around.

I have gone on the record as not being a SFM fan. In fact at times I have even asked if it was just worth cutting?

But wow was I wrong! She is so essential. I am still on the Neeley list but have cut Noble H for a 3rd SFM. I feel like it's too good in some of our worst and unfavorable matchups. Grabbing SOFI/SOLAS against Miracles is huge. Grabbing jitte against Elves is huge. Against many fair creature decks it's do you have abrupt decay? no? Then you start to take over the game. SFM tutors for what just wins you the game.

I just wanted to share with you all that I have now seen the light and make amends ;)

[lavafrogg]

well I have finally come around.

I have gone on the record as not being a SFM fan. In fact at times I have even asked if it was just worth cutting?

But wow was I wrong! She is so essential. I am still on the Neeley list but have cut Noble H for a 3rd SFM. I feel like it's too good in some of our worst and unfavorable matchups. Grabbing SOFI/SOLAS against Miracles is huge. Grabbing jitte against Elves is huge. Against many fair creature decks it's do you have abrupt decay? no? Then you start to take over the game. SFM tutors for what just wins you the game.

I just wanted to share with you all that I have now seen the light and make amends ;)

SFM is amazing.

I am still on 3 main board prelates and using prelate to protect an equipment has been a very popular and common win condition for me. Most decks fold to an active equipment, and the artifact hate people us is very few and selective.

[NEELEY]

Equipment are amazing in Maverick and turn all your creatures into threats.

[BlackNight]

@NEELEY

Hi Neeley,

i really love your list :smile:

What do you think about 3 qasali MB in replace of 2 decays?

Qasali hit Batterskull, Omniscience, Aluren and it is a creature...with exalted:smile:.

[Thunderknight]

Equipment are amazing in Maverick and turn all your creatures into threats.

I want to hear your thoughts about the big dumb black elephant in the room: Batterskull. Now that the format's meta has shifted towards grindy control decks or midrange decks with combo finishes, do you think its worth while to move SOLAS to the board and but Batterskull main?

[NEELEY]

@NEELEY

Hi Neeley,

i really love your list :smile:

What do you think about 3 qasali MB in replace of 2 decays?

Qasali hit Batterskull, Omniscience, Aluren and it is a creature...with exalted:smile:.

I love pridemage but I think the deck required more removal spells and more consistent answer to counterbalance. In the 2 decay spots, I use to play an additional pridemage and another sylvan library/or a garruk when shardless was more popular. I seem to beat delver/creature decks more consistently. The other reason not to play as many pridemage is stoneblade decks aren't very popular. Hope this helps.

[NEELEY]

I want to hear your thoughts about the big dumb black elephant in the room: Batterskull.

If you remember this list I played for a bit with batterskull

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/472967#online

The problem I had was it was worst vs miracles than SOLAS. I think it's fine and it's deffiently good. If I played batterskull I would keep your stoneforge count at 3 to give you more consistency in getting it into play, since it's harder to cast.

[lavafrogg]

I love pridemage but I think the deck required more removal spells and more consistent answer to counterbalance. In the 2 decay spots, I use to play an additional pridemage and another sylvan library/or a garruk when shardless was more popular. I seem to beat delver/creature decks more consistently. The other reason not to play as many pridemage is stoneblade decks aren't very popular. Hope this helps.

I always want as many Pridemage as I can fit, I love the utility he provides against random. I don't mainboard decays for balance as Pridemage, GSZ for Pridemage and sword of light and shandow can all get him into play to wreck a counterbalance. He also makes the DnT matchup heavily in our favor as equipment and vials all hit the yard. He also has applications against BGx combo... i.e. Aluren and food chain, he kills blood moons for 1 Green mana(Zenith for him) and tons of other utility across many matchups.

He was much better when stone blade was better, but a creature that dodges swords and terminus, kills counterbalance and saves me against random.dec is always welcome by me.

That being said, multiples are very easily(and often are) cut when I have a reason to.

I went 3-1 Monday with my current Prelate list beating DnT, Lands and Elves, losing to Shardless with 2x mainboard Deluge...

2-0 against DnT. Prelate was cast on 1 against DnT game 1 to remove swords from both of our decks, at that point they couldn't kill my Knights and Pridemage kept their equipment off line. Game 2 prelate was set at 1 again and wound up hitting needle, relic of progenitors and graffdiggers cage that were sided in, once again knight took over from there.

Lands was a cake walk with prelate set at 2 both games.

Loss to shardless, 0-2, was due to an insane amount of varied cost removal. Strix, Push, Decay, Liliana, Deluge... all main.

Elves was a 2-1 win with Gaddock Teeg and equipment holding down the fort. Prelate was set at 2 in game 3 to stop Decay on my jitte. Teeg was already on watch for 4 drops.

I am still loving the prelates as they really have applications in most matchups.

[beardstorm]

I think I'm going to give the multiple Prelates a shot. It sounds like it might just give a lot of random game when we would otherwise just fold.

[NEELEY]

idk if prelate is that good in the zenith builds. Let me know how it does and what slots you are playing it over.

[lavafrogg]

I am not saying that Prelate is the end all be all, but I think that if the "walking chalice" is going to have a home it should be with Maverick. The only spell we play that can locked out is StP.

Current list:

Prelate Maverick

Creatures(25)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(22)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Boujka Bog
1 Council's Judgement

I really want more pride mages and the fourth Thalia, but this has been working for my last 2 locals, 4-0, 3-1.

[Luthiereisfun]

I am not saying that Prelate is the end all be all, but I think that if the "walking chalice" is going to have a home it should be with Maverick. The only spell we play that can locked out is StP.

Current list:

Prelate Maverick

Creatures(25)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(5)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sword of LIght and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands(22)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Boujka Bog
1 Council's Judgement

I really want more pride mages and the fourth Thalia, but this has been working for my last 2 locals, 4-0, 3-1.

Any reason on no scrub ranger?

[lavafrogg]

Any reason on no scrub ranger?

What do you feel you need the ranger for? She is a 1 of utility card that has a ton of use, but nothing in specific. She untaps mom/shaman/knight all of which are amazing if we get to untap once, and she can bounce our lands to protect from wastes... but so can Knight.

She was a card that got cut to make room for Prelate who, I believe, offers more use.

[Luthiereisfun]

What do you feel you need the ranger for? She is a 1 of utility card that has a ton of use, but nothing in specific. She untaps mom/shaman/knight all of which are amazing if we get to untap once, and she can bounce our lands to protect from wastes... but so can Knight.

She was a card that got cut to make room for Prelate who, I believe, offers more use.

That's fair.

For me personally I have had too many games where it just does too much. I have had it sandbag Ionas with mom against reanimator. I have had it Block Delvers. I have had it with DRS do 6 damage in 2 turns to seal wins. I have had it carry equipment across stalled board states. It has protected me against wasteland. It has been able to turn 2 lands into a pseudo 3 by bouncing and replaying. It has also sandbagged opposing equipment with dryad arbor.

As you said there is no specific thing that it does in the sense that QP mage is obviously good and brought in against artifact/enchantment and cards like scooze to own the gy.

I think we are in agreement. It's a utility card with tons of use but nothing specific. For me it's flexible enough and provides so much use (even if not obvious or specific) that I feel having it as a GSZ option is too good to pass up.

I understand though how prelate is also a card that in almost any MU can come in and have a varied form of disruption. I've been toying with the idea of trying to fit 2 prelates in my current list and seeing how it goes.

[lavafrogg]

That's fair.

For me personally I have had too many games where it just does too much. I have had it sandbag Ionas with mom against reanimator. I have had it Block Delvers. I have had it with DRS do 6 damage in 2 turns to seal wins. I have had it carry equipment across stalled board states. It has protected me against wasteland. It has been able to turn 2 lands into a pseudo 3 by bouncing and replaying. It has also sandbagged opposing equipment with dryad arbor.

As you said there is no specific thing that it does in the sense that QP mage is obviously good and brought in against artifact/enchantment and cards like scooze to own the gy.

I think we are in agreement. It's a utility card with tons of use but nothing specific. For me playing Maverick however it's flexible enough and provides so much use and varied not obvious ways that I feel having it as a GSZ option is too good to pass up.

I understand though how prelate is also a card that in almost any MU can come in and have a varied form of disruption. I've been toying with the idea of trying to fit 2 prelates in my current list and seeing how it goes.

Agreed.

Another thing: In years of playing GSZ decks with Ranger in them, I don't think I can remember more than a handful of times where I used a GSZ on him. Obviously, you fetch him more than I do...:/

I feel like all of the instances that you said are very valid, but few and far between. His best, and most frequent, use is blocking delvers, but we have zero problem with delver matchups. After delver combat, I would say picking up an equipment and swinging is his second most common use... but again, in our worst matchups (Show and Tell, Miracles, Storm) there aren't many blockers.

[NEELEY]

Okay I'm almost stunned at how you talk about scryb ranger. This card is amazing and having no access to a flyer is CRAZY. I mean you aren't even playing 4 Thalia!? I will just leave it at this, you are cutting the wrong cards to add prelate, I mean 3 stoneforge over the 4th Thalia. This could all be your meta game and I'm sorry if it is. I would never take this list to an open field. Sorry if I sound harsh, I'm just shocked at the list.

[beardstorm]

Prelate Maverick

Lands(22)
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforst

What surprises me the most is the decision on what lands to play. You're playing more white spells than usual, with triple Prelate and a Gideon in the main, but you've upped the number of forests. You're also playing a Scrubland, but decided on 3x Misty Rainforest over Verdant Catacombs. The decisions on what spells to play might be based on a meta-game that is different to what we're used to, but the lands just strikes me as odd.

I have to agree with NEELEY regarding Scryb Ranger and would cut the Gideon for it, as well as a Stoneforge for the fourth Thalia.
I would also make these changes to the land base:

+1 Plains
-1 Forest
+2 Cavern of Souls (I usually play one anyway, but the Prelates are the 13-15th Humans in the list)
-1 Gaea's Cradle (since i don't have one)
-1 Horizon Canopy
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+2 Marsh Flats
-3 Misty Rainforest
-1 Savannah

For a complete list: https://deckbox.org/sets/1681537

[lavafrogg]

What surprises me the most is the decision on what lands to play. You're playing more white spells than usual, with triple Prelate and a Gideon in the main, but you've upped the number of forests. You're also playing a Scrubland, but decided on 3x Misty Rainforest over Verdant Catacombs. The decisions on what spells to play might be based on a meta-game that is different to what we're used to, but the lands just strikes me as odd.

I have to agree with NEELEY regarding Scryb Ranger and would cut the Gideon for it, as well as a Stoneforge for the fourth Thalia.
I would also make these changes to the land base:

+1 Plains
-1 Forest
+2 Cavern of Souls (I usually play one anyway, but the Prelates are the 13-15th Humans in the list)
-1 Gaea's Cradle (since i don't have one)
-1 Horizon Canopy
+2 Verdant Catacombs
+2 Marsh Flats
-3 Misty Rainforest
-1 Savannah

For a complete list: https://deckbox.org/sets/1681537

Thanks for the advice on the mana base, I think I just threw together the lands when I resleeved my BG Rock list and never really looked at the fetches and duals. I will switch the fetch/dual situation to something more reliable but I can't cut the cradle and Canopy for 2 caverns just yet as I always want knight to have something relevant to fetch. I have been looking at Cavern, but with GSZ for zero, turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, Teeg, Pridemage, Scooze, Mystic all being early plays, I did not want to add a land that can't pay for them all. I want to find room for a Cavern or two it just hasn't been a priority yet.

With Scryb Ranger: I have agreed she is a very good card in Maverick lists, but I do not feel she has much value in the matchups that I am trying to focus on. Scryb is at her best in fair matchups, which we are already favored in between Knight/Mom/Mystic and therefor I cut her to try and improve problem matchups with the addition of Prelate.

Thalia is also good, but she is not an end all lock piece like she can be in death and taxes, where they have vial/port/Wasteland to further stress the mana base. I find Thalia to be just as valuable as Stoneforge Mystic, so I play 3 of each.

[ET1]

With Scryb Ranger: I have agreed she is a very good card in Maverick lists, but I do not feel she has much value in the matchups that I am trying to focus on. Scryb is at her best in fair matchups, which we are already favored in between Knight/Mom/Mystic and therefor I cut her to try and improve problem matchups with the addition of Prelate.

Thalia is also good, but she is not an end all lock piece like she can be in death and taxes, where they have vial/port/Wasteland to further stress the mana base. I find Thalia to be just as valuable as Stoneforge Mystic, so I play 3 of each.

Which match-ups specifically are you trying to focus on? I feel that in most unfair match-ups scryb ranger often acts as a way to double wasteland opponents with knight to lock them out of the game. Additionally cutting thalia for another stoneforge seems like cutting a card that's at its best in the unfair match-ups for a card that is at its best in fair match-ups. However I have wanted to find a way to add another stoneforge, as two sometimes feels a bit light.

[Luthiereisfun]

Which match-ups specifically are you trying to focus on? I feel that in most unfair match-ups scryb ranger often acts as a way to double wasteland opponents with knight to lock them out of the game. Additionally cutting thalia for another stoneforge seems like cutting a card that's at its best in the unfair match-ups for a card that is at its best in fair match-ups. However I have wanted to find a way to add another stoneforge, as two sometimes feels a bit light.

What's your list? I pretty much run the neeley list but took out a noble h for SFM #3 and swapped a forest for a cavern of souls

[lavafrogg]

Which match-ups specifically are you trying to focus on? I feel that in most unfair match-ups scryb ranger often acts as a way to double wasteland opponents with knight to lock them out of the game. Additionally cutting thalia for another stoneforge seems like cutting a card that's at its best in the unfair match-ups for a card that is at its best in fair match-ups. However I have wanted to find a way to add another stoneforge, as two sometimes feels a bit light.

I never cut a Thalia for a stoneforge, I cut a Thalia for a Sanctum Prelate. I have always played 3 Stoneforge and 3 equipment. That gives my unfair matchup 3 Thalia/3 Prelate/1 Teeg to deal with, if I wanted the 4th Thalia I would find another card to cut, possibly a Knight.

As for the matchups I am looking at: Miracles, Show and Tell, and Storm and Scryb is not the best card in those matchups. Please don't bring up corner cases where you blocked an angel token to survive at 1 and win on the crack back, or walled a griselbrand with a mom/ranger and they whiffed on drawing gas, here are few and far between.

Against miracles, mom/Teeg/prelate is game, not the easiest thing to pull off but prelate on 1 also slows them down considerably with prelate on 1 and Teeg being practically gg.
Show and tell: prelate on 3, knight for karakas, Thalia to slow them down are all very real and very proactive ways to win the game.
Storm: Thalia, prelate on 1,2,4, Teeg are all wins.

Stoneforge us for fair matchups, ones where you will have time to establish a board and get an active Scryb ranger.

[ET1]

This is the current list I'm playing:

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch

1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle




As for the matchups I am looking at: Miracles, Show and Tell, and Storm and Scryb is not the best card in those matchups. Please don't bring up corner cases where you blocked an angel token to survive at 1 and win on the crack back, or walled a griselbrand with a mom/ranger and they whiffed on drawing gas, here are few and far between.

Against miracles, mom/Teeg/prelate is game, not the easiest thing to pull off but prelate on 1 also slows them down considerably with prelate on 1 and Teeg being practically gg.
Show and tell: prelate on 3, knight for karakas, Thalia to slow them down are all very real and very proactive ways to win the game.
Storm: Thalia, prelate on 1,2,4, Teeg are all wins.

Stoneforge us for fair matchups, ones where you will have time to establish a board and get an active Scryb ranger.

I'm not intending on bringing up corner cases. I was originally a doubter of scryb ranger, when I first started playing the deck the card on paper just didn't seem all that amazing and I was playing a goyf in its place as a tutorable beatstick. I actually thought goyf was pretty good too, however I decided to test out scryb ranger. The first night I played it I remember making lots of mistakes like forgetting to use it to generate an extra mana, or I would cast gsz to get a scooze or a random pridemage and then realize how much better it would have been to get the ranger. I have not cut it since and damn does it pull it's weight. Of course as you mentioned there are the insane corner case scenarios that come up with it, but the thing is a tool of versatility. The most common things I have used it for have been:

- generating an extra mana
- generating an extra two mana with a deathrite, hierarch, or a knight
- double wastelanding with a knight in play
- Swinging in the air with equipment on a stalled board
- Killing jace's like a champ

The card is a great tool in our toolbox and it's one of the few cards that is often both good when we're ahead and when we're behind. I agree she isn't at her best against the three match-ups you listed, but she's rarely a dead card and is often valuable even in those match ups.

How have you liked having both knights and prelate in your deck? I've been tempted to test prelate, in the past I've just never been a fan of that many three drops.

[TMagpie]

I love drawing Scryb Ranger against all 3 of those matchups--albeit I never tutor for it in those matchups.

Against Miracles, having a flash creature you can cast at end of turn after a terminus is fantastic, as well as being able to to protect your Dryad Arbor from Swords to Plowshares is also really strong. Not to mention how much damage Scryb+Deathrite Shaman does per turn.

Against storm, the lock is fairly easy--keep Gaddock Teeg alive. With Teeg out you simply turn off their deck--unless they use spot removal at end of turn. This is what Mother of Runes is usually used for. However, you are not guaranteed Gaddock Teeg, and in those cases you lean on Thalia. Scryb Ranger works better with Thalia than Mother of Runes does versus storm because Scryb allows you to keep plains out of the battlefield. By only using Savannah as your "plains" you can bounce it back to your hand to combat Massacre. Getting instant speed untaps with Mother of Runes is also useful.

Sneak and Show--having Mom+Scryb turn off 3/8 to 1/2 of their win conditions is fantastic. It allows you to put emphasis and focus on stopping the emrakul/Wish plans.

[lavafrogg]

I love drawing Scryb Ranger against all 3 of those matchups--albeit I never tutor for it in those matchups.

Against Miracles, having a flash creature you can cast at end of turn after a terminus is fantastic, as well as being able to to protect your Dryad Arbor from Swords to Plowshares is also really strong. Not to mention how much damage Scryb+Deathrite Shaman does per turn.

Against storm, the lock is fairly easy--keep Gaddock Teeg alive. With Teeg out you simply turn off their deck--unless they use spot removal at end of turn. This is what Mother of Runes is usually used for. However, you are not guaranteed Gaddock Teeg, and in those cases you lean on Thalia. Scryb Ranger works better with Thalia than Mother of Runes does versus storm because Scryb allows you to keep plains out of the battlefield. By only using Savannah as your "plains" you can bounce it back to your hand to combat Massacre. Getting instant speed untaps with Mother of Runes is also useful.

Sneak and Show--having Mom+Scryb turn off 3/8 to 1/2 of their win conditions is fantastic. It allows you to put emphasis and focus on stopping the emrakul/Wish plans.

This is kind of the type of magical Christmas land scenarios I was talking about and trying to avoid. In the vast majority of games against these three decks... Scryb Ranger is not ideal. I will say that having a flash creature to bring in after a terminus is good(as I have stated in the past flash creatures are good against miracles), but it is a 1/1 1-of and not a main strategy against miracles. Even in these scenarios, many things have had to happen for Scryb to be good.

Miracles: No counterbalance on 2, Dryad Arbor hasn't been terminus-ed away, you have an active deathrite through terminus/swords/snapcaster/counterbalance
Sneak and Show: They showed in a griselbrand and whiffed on their draw 7/14, they didn't know you were GW and out in an Emrukul and you put in a Knight to stall the game, they then didn't have the sneak attack follow up
Storm: you already have hatebears on the board and are trying to now play around massacre, wastelanding/knighting away your plains also works, you didn't die turn 0-1-2, you went mom-thalia-scryb ranger?



This is the current list I'm playing:

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch

1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle



I'm not intending on bringing up corner cases. I was originally a doubter of scryb ranger, when I first started playing the deck the card on paper just didn't seem all that amazing and I was playing a goyf in its place as a tutorable beatstick. I actually thought goyf was pretty good too, however I decided to test out scryb ranger. The first night I played it I remember making lots of mistakes like forgetting to use it to generate an extra mana, or I would cast gsz to get a scooze or a random pridemage and then realize how much better it would have been to get the ranger. I have not cut it since and damn does it pull it's weight. Of course as you mentioned there are the insane corner case scenarios that come up with it, but the thing is a tool of versatility. The most common things I have used it for have been:

- generating an extra mana
- generating an extra two mana with a deathrite, hierarch, or a knight
- double wastelanding with a knight in play
- Swinging in the air with equipment on a stalled board
- Killing jace's like a champ

The card is a great tool in our toolbox and it's one of the few cards that is often both good when we're ahead and when we're behind. I agree she isn't at her best against the three match-ups you listed, but she's rarely a dead card and is often valuable even in those match ups.

How have you liked having both knights and prelate in your deck? I've been tempted to test prelate, in the past I've just never been a fan of that many three drops.

To start I believe that the Depths/Stage combo is win more, as it means you have an active Knight of the Reliquary.

Scryb ranger is good, but none of the points you mentioned matter in a Miracles/Show/Combo match-up. Scryb requires you to have an actual good card active to get any benefit, which is durdly in the combo match-up or overextending in the Miracles match-up. If stalled boards and grindy match ups were the issue here, I would be pushing for Scryb Ranger, but we do not have problems with the current mid range decks in the format. We generally have good match ups against Grixis Delver, BUG/Team America/Shardless/Leovold/whatever, Death and Taxes and random decks. Adjusting the flavors of equipment is meta specific and can help any fair matchup issues that we are having i.e. Body and Mind against TNN even though i prefer Fire and Ice and Light and Shadow to go with a jitte. Scryb Ranger is a good "gotcha" card against all of these match-ups resetting a Mom/Knight/Shaman can easily help us out grind other fair decks.

I love having more 3 drops as it helps the turn 1 dork, turn 2 3 drop plan. If miracles doesnt have the turn 1 top, then a turn 2 then a Prelate on 1 is game breaking, turn 2 knight is good against fair decks and turn 2 scooze/teeg is good against yard and combo decks obviously.

I also wish I had room for a 2nd Pridemage but I had to cut somewhere.

[beardstorm]

I think what makes Scryb Ranger so good is the unexpected factor it brings to a game. Given that, the matchups where it shines is against non-linear strategies where incremental advantage is key.

[Warden]

Although I believe @lavafrogg has questionable choices in his list and despite Scryb Ranger occasionally being selectively good, I completely agree with his above remarks toward said card.

Scryb Ranger is a card that does very little on its own. That's the reason I tend to shy away from its inclusion. I respectfully disagree with @beardstorm about the "surprise factor". I think @lavafrog is correct about Scryb doing little to boost matchups this deck needs help with. Unlike @TMagpie, I think Scryb is garbage against Miracles, Storm, and Sneak.

What makes Scryb great? 2 things:
1- Your deck contains a critical mass of creatures with "~ taps to do a helpful activated ability". Mainstream lists only really depend upon mom, knight, and drs/noble. If creatures are turning sideways, it's generally to attack. I don't think that's enough. Look back at older Viciano Vial-based lists. I believe his inclusion of weathered wayfarer made a difference in how Scryb impacted the deck.

2 - Flying over a stalled boardstate with equipment. I find this to be a corner-case, but it does stand out as being different in comparison to #1.
***

IMO, I find Mirran Crusader, Prelate, Thalia 2.0, and additional 2 drops many of the recently posted lists are skimping on > Scryb. I honestly feel the deck gets worse with time, despite better card choices. Whatever sick G or W cards come out, the other colors and archtypes gain something even better. Nevertheless, the deck can win. You just need to make optimal choices. I feel Scryb isn't one of them unless you're pushing an activated abilities matter gameplan.

[Seraphix]

Although I believe @lavafrogg has questionable choices in his list and despite Scryb Ranger occasionally being selectively good, I completely agree with his above remarks toward said card.

Scryb Ranger is a card that does very little on its own. That's the reason I tend to shy away from its inclusion. I respectfully disagree with @beardstorm about the "surprise factor". I think @lavafrog is correct about Scryb doing little to boost matchups this deck needs help with. Unlike @TMagpie, I think Scryb is garbage against Miracles, Storm, and Sneak.

What makes Scryb great? 2 things:
1- Your deck contains a critical mass of creatures with "~ taps to do a helpful activated ability". Mainstream lists only really depend upon mom, knight, and drs/noble. If creatures are turning sideways, it's generally to attack. I don't think that's enough. Look back at older Viciano Vial-based lists. I believe his inclusion of weathered wayfarer made a difference in how Scryb impacted the deck.

2 - Flying over a stalled boardstate with equipment. I find this to be a corner-case, but it does stand out as being different in comparison to #1.
***

IMO, I find Mirran Crusader, Prelate, Thalia 2.0, and additional 2 drops many of the recently posted lists are skimping on > Scryb. I honestly feel the deck gets worse with time, despite better card choices. Whatever sick G or W cards come out, the other colors and archtypes gain something even better. Nevertheless, the deck can win. You just need to make optimal choices. I feel Scryb isn't one of them unless you're pushing an activated abilities matter gameplan.

You're overlooking one of Scryb Ranger's most useful abilities: Generating extra mana when you're missing land drops/have mana dorks in play. You get a ton of mileage out of this ability even in matchups where you wouldn't think it matters. I remember one game vs Storm I was choked on mana, but was able to make all the mana I needed with Scryb Ranger and even play around Massacre while doing it by bouncing my Savannah.

Maverick is a toolbox and synergy based strategy, so it naturally has some cards that are situational and underpowered on their own. Scryb Ranger is one such card, but it enables such a critical mass of interactions that I find it incredibly useful in many situations where no other card could perform the same role. Its not a "win-more" card, because winning with this strategy is predicated on locking out the opponent with an overwhelming board state (this is why Miracles, a deck with one-mana instant speed Wrath of God is fundamentally problematic for Maverick).

I agree with TMagpie that Scryb Ranger is good in the Miracles matchup since Flash lets you play around Terminus and Pro-Blue is important vs Jace and their Blue creatures. Beardstorm also brings up the unexpected factor, which may be cheesy, but is certainly relevant. Even when I used to play an English Scryb Ranger, people constantly misplayed around it on board and lost games as a result.

[beardstorm]

I think my main point was that it gives incremental advantage. I see it more as pseudo-card advantage than anything else.
An extra mana here, an extra Deathrite activation there, the opponent having to play around two activations of Mother.
It enhances everything that the deck wants to do. It all adds up to your general card quality being better.

It does not do much on its own, that is given. And it doesn't help a whole lot against linear strategies either.
But in a game where your choices matter, it is golden. Usually since you get to make a whole lot more of them.

[Luthiereisfun]

You're overlooking one of Scryb Ranger's most useful abilities: Generating extra mana when you're missing land drops/have mana dorks in play. You get a ton of mileage out of this ability even in matchups where you wouldn't think it matters. I remember one game vs Storm I was choked on mana, but was able to make all the mana I needed with Scryb Ranger and even play around Massacre while doing it by bouncing my Savannah.

Maverick is a toolbox and synergy based strategy, so it naturally has some cards that are situational and underpowered on their own. Scryb Ranger is one such card, but it enables such a critical mass of interactions that I find it incredibly useful in many situations where no other card could perform the same role. Its not a "win-more" card, because winning with this strategy is predicated on locking out the opponent with an overwhelming board state (this is why Miracles, a deck with one-mana instant speed Wrath of God is fundamentally problematic for Maverick).

I agree with TMagpie that Scryb Ranger is good in the Miracles matchup since Flash lets you play around Terminus and Pro-Blue is important vs Jace and their Blue creatures. Beardstorm also brings up the unexpected factor, which may be cheesy, but is certainly relevant. Even when I used to play an English Scryb Ranger, people constantly misplayed around it on board and lost games as a result.

I agree that it does mess with combat quite well in our favor. I also agree that most people misplay against it. Unless you play Maverick or have intimate knowledge of the MU (which I don't think many people do ATM. I think Maverick goes under the radar) most don't seem to quite know all of its tricks when playing against it etc..Against opposing jittes/batterskull/gurmag anglers etc.. I have had games where you flash in scryb, fetch dryad arbor and bounce back. Or you flash in scryb ranger and untap your Knight to block/kill their creature. I think it's surprise factor and ability to mess up combat for the opponent is quite good.

Heck it allows Knight to apply pressure through attacking and wastelanding them.

I get that all these scenarios people have brought up are narrow but that's part of why Scryb is so good. It's not just one narrow situation Scryb is good in. It's a myriad of them.

I also feel like Scryb is important in fundamentally how I play/view Maverick. That is that Maverick is a (disruptive) creature based deck that uses GSZ as a toolbox to be able to adapt to any situation or game state. For me Scryb is part of that adaptability.

[Megadeus]

I'll just throw my hat into the "I love Scryb Ranger" ring. It has won me a good amount of games. I've bricked opposing wastelands, gotten extra Knight activations, and even against something merfolk he just blocks everything forever as well as being a Moat for delver. Will never forget when I had a Knight on a batterskull and I was 2 power short of killing my death and taxes opponent who had me dead next turn. top deck scryb, attack with knight, before blocks activate getting a fetch to pump knight again,flash in and use scryb to untap knight, activate again and get my Rogues passage for the win. Couldn't have done it without scryb. He's such a great little man.

[Thunderknight]

https://mtgmaverick.wordpress.com/category/tournament-reports/

I uploaded my Tournament report from this past weekend. I also included a link to the feature match that I played against Sea Stompy. I'm also looking for another writer for the Blog to expand the site. just PM me if you are interested.

[pettdan]

I agree with most comments, mostly I think Seraphix. The main advantage of Scryb Ranger in my opinion is that it's extremely resource efficient. It will effectively add two Mothers, two Deathrites, and/or a knight activation to your board. Whatever is important for your current matchup you'll triple up on (two extra activations during your and your oppenent's turns). And an extra land. Besides this, it has a lot of other relevant advantages, that you have already mentioned. Giving vigilance to a creature carrying equipment is one I think wasn't mentioned. Giving extra clues with Tracker is another one.

@Thunderknight: sweet, will enjoy reading and watching.

[Thunderknight]

I'll just throw my hat into the "I love Scryb Ranger" ring. It has won me a good amount of games. I've bricked opposing wastelands, gotten extra Knight activations, and even against something merfolk he just blocks everything forever as well as being a Moat for delver. Will never forget when I had a Knight on a batterskull and I was 2 power short of killing my death and taxes opponent who had me dead next turn. top deck scryb, attack with knight, before blocks activate getting a fetch to pump knight again,flash in and use scryb to untap knight, activate again and get my Rogues passage for the win. Couldn't have done it without scryb. He's such a great little man.

I also want to add this discussion a Feature match that I was on camera for in order to support @Megadeus arugement.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/135432781 (Time Skip to 2:01 to see how Scryb Ranger massively beats up Death and Taxes).

[TMagpie]

On the miracles and storm matchup--unless you've played those matchups extensively you won't understand the importance of Scryb Ranger in those matchups. The main outs to dryad Arbor for miracles is blocking and swords to Plowshares being that Terminus does nothing against the Arbor + Wasteland Combo. Being able to protect Arbor from those cards is not irrelevant and is not "magic Christmas land." You run 8-10 lands that searches dryad Arbor and when you tax your opponent with real creatures dryad Arbor often becomes your late game win condition.

Against storm massacre is the primary answer that they bring against hatebear decks. Running a card that for all intents and purposes hard counters that strategy is not "cute" or "magical Christmas land" but is actually a line of play you can employ.

Last, but not least, Maverick does not have much evasion. Without cards like Scryb Ranger then you get bricked by mom+Revoker. It's not like maverick just can randomly block griselbrand, without cards like Scryb you don't even have that option. I have zenithed for 2 many times vs griselbrand strategies between Show and Tell and Reanimator, just to survive long enough to untap with my Knight.

It definitely is not "the best card" in the deck, but the flexibility and options it provides as both a hatebear, a 5th mom, evasion, and acceleration of damage or mana makes it more akin to Ponder to me than anything else.

[lavafrogg]

Posts like the ones made recently have already gotten me in trouble once for flaming, so I am going to state that I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful before I start to post.

Literally almost every arguement you guys are making is Scryb Ranger vs a fair deck. Death and Taxes, Sea Stompy, Merfolk, Delver, decks where you need incremental advantage... all of these are fair situations in fair matchups.

It has been universally accepted that Scryb Ranger is good in these situations. We don't need to keep bringing up situations against fair decks that Scryb Ranger is good in.

If anyone remembers back when Maverick was a tier 1 deck, Scryb Ranger was often the first card cut from every list when a new piece of tech came in.

Back to topic:

To catch everyone up, I am squeezing in 3 Sanctum Prelates into my mainboard to improve the Miracles, Storm, Show matchups(as well as random matchups like BGx, Aluren, Food Chain, Bomberman, Lands) and testing her use as a removal blocker to help protect knights from danger i.e. Mom plus prelate on 3 usually means the opponent has no sweepers to clear our board and needs multiple copies of a 4 of before we get a sword active.

Scryb Ranger does minimal in these 3 matchup I am testing with her best use being flashing in at the end of turn after a terminus against miracles where sanctum prelate can be game ending. I hope everyone can see the difference there, Scryb Ranger can help you try and grind against a deck that can kill creatures all day long, and Sanctum Prelate can outright win you the game.

Against show and tell, once again, turn 2 prelate on 3 stops their main combo enabler, a follow up teeg blanks their sneak attacks. A Scryb Ranger is situationally good when they have a griselbrand and whiffed on drawing 7-14 cards. A turn 2 Ranger does?

Finally, against storm, turn 2 Prelate or turn 2 Scryb Ranger? Granted you can die on turns 0 or 1, but a turn 2 Ranger does nothing.

I understand that Scryb Ranger is situationally good in many matchups, even these three, but Sanctum Prelate is actually good in these matchups and I am testing if she is worth the slots in other match ups as well.

Maverick has been relatively untouched since the printing of DRS, brew a little.

[pettdan]

@Lavafrog: Sanctum Prelate is a great card and it's great that you're brewing with it, I don't think anyone actually disagrees with that. There are some comments on which cards should be cut, whichever you cut I'm sure you'll see Prelates advantages in the meta and let us know how your tests proceed.

[lavafrogg]

@Lavafrog: Sanctum Prelate is a great card and it's great that you're brewing with it, I don't think anyone actually disagrees with that. There are some comments on which cards should be cut, whichever you cut I'm sure you'll see Prelates advantages in the meta and let us know how your tests proceed.

<3

I get so caught up in the merits of a Scryb Ranger...

[Luthiereisfun]

Posts like the ones made recently have already gotten me in trouble once for flaming, so I am going to state that I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful before I start to post.

Literally almost every arguement you guys are making is Scryb Ranger vs a fair deck. Death and Taxes, Sea Stompy, Merfolk, Delver, decks where you need incremental advantage... all of these are fair situations in fair matchups.

It has been universally accepted that Scryb Ranger is good in these situations. We don't need to keep bringing up situations against fair decks that Scryb Ranger is good in.

If anyone remembers back when Maverick was a tier 1 deck, Scryb Ranger was often the first card cut from every list when a new piece of tech came in.

Back to topic:

To catch everyone up, I am squeezing in 3 Sanctum Prelates into my mainboard to improve the Miracles, Storm, Show matchups(as well as random matchups like BGx, Aluren, Food Chain, Bomberman, Lands) and testing her use as a removal blocker to help protect knights from danger i.e. Mom plus prelate on 3 usually means the opponent has no sweepers to clear our board and needs multiple copies of a 4 of before we get a sword active.

Scryb Ranger does minimal in these 3 matchup I am testing with her best use being flashing in at the end of turn after a terminus against miracles where sanctum prelate can be game ending. I hope everyone can see the difference there, Scryb Ranger can help you try and grind against a deck that can kill creatures all day long, and Sanctum Prelate can outright win you the game.

Against show and tell, once again, turn 2 prelate on 3 stops their main combo enabler, a follow up teeg blanks their sneak attacks. A Scryb Ranger is situationally good when they have a griselbrand and whiffed on drawing 7-14 cards. A turn 2 Ranger does?

Finally, against storm, turn 2 Prelate or turn 2 Scryb Ranger? Granted you can die on turns 0 or 1, but a turn 2 Ranger does nothing.

I understand that Scryb Ranger is situationally good in many matchups, even these three, but Sanctum Prelate is actually good in these matchups and I am testing if she is worth the slots in other match ups as well.

Maverick has been relatively untouched since the printing of DRS, brew a little.

I guess in the Scryb ranger argument I don't quite view it as Scryb vs Prelate. I understand for your own list putting in Prelate meant cutting things like the Faerie. For my own list I would probably cut 1-2 abrupt decay or move sword of light and shadow/play with SFM numbers before cutting Scryb Ranger.

I believe in a list that plays both Ranger and Prelate.

[lavafrogg]

I guess in the Scryb ranger argument I don't quite view it as Scryb vs Prelate. I understand for your own list putting in Prelate meant cutting things like the Faerie. For my own list I would probably cut 1-2 abrupt decay or move sword of light and shadow/play with SFM numbers before cutting SFM.

I believe in a list that plays both Ranger and Prelate.

This makes sense. My issue is that I cut Decay a while ago for Library/Planeswalker and I really want to keep Teeg/Scooze/Pridemage as the big bullet targets for GSZ.

I cut Scryb for her lack of direct use, my second Qasali and my 4th SFM. I have been nothing but overly impressed with Prelate and hopefully I can get in the next big tournament in the Southwest to get a good run in.

Other things I am testing:

Noble Heirarch over Deathrite Shaman, for the guaranteed 3 mana on turn 2 and less reliance on the graveyard. Also, bigger knights... bonus.

Completely cutting black for Cavern of Souls, if most of our creatures are uncounterable, why do we need main board counterbalance hate? This is made stronger by the removal of DRS.

Things I can currently see cutting: The last Qasali Prdemage, The Third Equipment... go to Jitte and Fire and Ice only.

testing will tell!

[Warden]

@lavafrog: if you are so concerned with those matchups I would advocate for the following adjustments:
-1 Gideon
-1 SFM
-1 sword of feast/famine
-1 sylvan library
+2 revoked or canonist main
+1 teeg
+1 sword of light/shadow

The sword helps considerably with miracles and anything with griseldaddy. You need teeg #2 to not roll over and die to all 3 main archetypes listed. I find Gideon woefully out of place. He's a waste of space against combo. Same for sylvan library vs combo. You're better off running revokers or canonists main. Deck can function with 2 SFM 3 equip just fine.

[lavafrogg]

@lavafrog: if you are so concerned with those matchups I would advocate for the following adjustments:
-1 Gideon
-1 SFM
-1 sword of feast/famine
-1 sylvan library
+2 revoked or canonist main
+1 teeg
+1 sword of light/shadow

The sword helps considerably with miracles and anything with griseldaddy. You need teeg #2 to not roll over and die to all 3 main archetypes listed. I find Gideon woefully out of place. He's a waste of space against combo. Same for sylvan library vs combo. You're better off running revokers or canonists main. Deck can function with 2 SFM 3 equip just fine.

The Gideon can come out, I think he is the best planeswalker option we have. Library is bonkers.

The other cards have been the logic for the past few years to no real avail, I am basically testing Prelate for the same effect.

Thank you for the suggestions!

EDIT:

I took advice and also made some changes I was planning on making and went 4-0 in a small 13 man tourney today.

Current list:

Noble Prelate Maverick

Creatures(26)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(3)
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Lands(23)
1 Forest
2 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard(15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Choke
3 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgement
2 Pithing Needle

Small tournament the 4-0 run was against Goblins, Lands, BUG Delver and Grixis Delver... so no real problem match-ups.

Goblins 2-0
They have no real answer for most of our deck, Thalia has first strike, jitte kills all the goblins and Knight is an unstoppable goblin killing machine.
no sideboarding changes

Lands 2-0
I did have to swords an early token, but Prelate at 2 kept them from doing much of anything, really a dream match-up for prelate.
Out: 2 swords; In: 2 pithing needle

BUG Delver 2-0
Game one had an early Knight go unanswered after they forced Mom and Pushed Thalia. Game two had a prelate on one stop their cantrips and an active Mother of Runes meant they needed to naturally draw multiple decays/dread of night/golgari charm which didn't happen in a relevant amount of time.
Out: Teeg, Pridemage; In: 2 Pithing Needle

Grixis Delver 2-1
He had zero way to kill a knight, but ran forked bolts in the side to kill my dorks and steal a game. Cavern of Souls was huge in this match as he was playing a relatively counter heavy build. Prelate on 1 also hurt him really bad.
Out: Teeg, Pridemage; In: 2 Pithing Needle

I never had a chance to miss black or deathrite shaman as I was able to just go over the top with Knight almost every game. Prelate was huge against delver and lands... chalice on legs is a thing.

Once again thanks for the advice, I liked cutting the Gideon and streamlining the equipment. The 4th Thalia was also needed and kind of a no brainer.

Pithing needles in the board should have most likely been Revokers, but needle is pretty good too.

[DoomRabbit]

It's been interesting reading about people's thoughts about prelate.
Anyone running it just in the sideboard? In that annoying creature that's applicable to some matchups slot (e.g. canonist/containment priest)?
I'm weary of including more 3 drops in the main, but I could definitely see bringing it in when it's really good (so matchups where shutting down a number is backbreaking)

[Warden]

It's been interesting reading about people's thoughts about prelate.
Anyone running it just in the sideboard? In that annoying creature that's applicable to some matchups slot (e.g. canonist/containment priest)?
I'm weary of including more 3 drops in the main, but I could definitely see bringing it in when it's really good (so matchups where shutting down a number is backbreaking)

This was my creature base last time I played (4 vial):
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic

I had 2 prelate in the sb (3 in total for combo matchups). Where my meta is at, I'd love to cut the MD Prelate entirely as it's too vulnerable. I was also disappointed by Revokers not really hitting anything in my matchups. I don't want to base my whole gameplan around Prelate, as it's terrible against fair matchups or anything remotely aggressive. Mirran on the otherhand just over-performs.

[TMagpie]

It's been interesting reading about people's thoughts about prelate.
Anyone running it just in the sideboard? In that annoying creature that's applicable to some matchups slot (e.g. canonist/containment priest)?
I'm weary of including more 3 drops in the main, but I could definitely see bringing it in when it's really good (so matchups where shutting down a number is backbreaking)

I run 2-4 Prelates in my sideboard depending on my mood. Its currently at 2 for curve and ww reasons, but I am not against 4 in the 75.

In my experience it is not great maindeck, but I also find that running more than 5 three drops is not good if you only run DRS as your mana dork.

My older Maverick lists ran Heirarchs like Lavafrogg does and it allowed my curve to be much higher since I was not as restricted by the limitations of DRS as much. I can see why he can run 7 three drops simply by using Heirarchs instead.

The card is good, and will eventually be like Cabal Therapy for stoneforge decks. However good its been the past year or so--its going to triple in value once more people get a better feel of how to use the card.

[DoomRabbit]

I'm thinking 2 in the sideboard at the moment, and you're right WW is a very real cost, the deck is much better at making GG than WW (at least in my configuration).
9 dorks (4 DRS, 1 Hierarch, 4 GSZ + Arbor), and 4 of those only make green.

[Luthiereisfun]

Well the miracles matchup just got better...top is banned

[CptHaddock]

Punishing maverick is back on the menu! :cool:

[maharis]

Welcome back to the format

[Thunderknight]

Welcome back to the format

I welcome to our stoneblade, deathblade, combo deck returning overlords.

[lavafrogg]

Amazing!

This most likely means that Stoneblade is back, UR Delver is better and Zoo gets to play again. I think Prelate on 1 gets a big boost and Maverick should very much be a real deck again!

[maharis]

I welcome to our stoneblade, deathblade, combo deck returning overlords.

Maverick is by far the most consistent non-blue deck now and it doesn't have to twist itself into a pretzel to beat Miracles. This is good for this deck even if I think banning top was largely shit.

[lordofthepit]

I'm happy to roll with Knights again.

I'd previously been a big advocate for Aether Vial over GSZ, primarily because of its better Miracles matchup, but I think GSZ may be the way going forward.

[Luthiereisfun]

Maverick is by far the most consistent non-blue deck now and it doesn't have to twist itself into a pretzel to beat Miracles. This is good for this deck even if I think banning top was largely shit.

100% agree. I didn't want anything banned. But I'm glad I'm a Maverick player and not a miracles player right now.

[lavafrogg]

Screw top. It was 100% the correct call. Banning balance would have just left them with a deck full of predicts, snapcasters, counterspells and terminus, still tier 1. Wizards stance has always been to ban the enabler, glad they stood by their own standards.

Teeg takes a hit and can most likely go to SB, Pridemage needs to be a 2-3 if to make sure equipment die.

[Luthiereisfun]

Screw top. It was 100% the correct call. Banning balance would have just left them with a deck full of predicts, snapcasters, counterspells and terminus, still tier 1. Wizards stance has always been to ban the enabler, glad they stood by their own standards.

Teeg takes a hit and can most likely go to SB, Pridemage needs to be a 2-3 if to make sure equipment die.

I feel like we still want teeg. It's good against storm and elves (even though winning g1 against elves feels like a crapshoot) and if stoneblade comes back with engineered explosives, supreme verdict and Jace I feel like teeg could be a reasonable 1 of in that matchup.

I do agree extra Pridemage is a thing.

[menloe]

Well the miracles matchup just got better...top is banned

Mother of Runes: In response, *sips tea*

[aspsnake]

Welcome back to the format

Oh my God oh my God oh my God (gets zeniths outta dusty box, dancing and whistling).

[Cpt-Qc]

^^

I'm so hyped! What changes should we make to our sideboard now that Maverick Christmas is finally happening?

Time to brew boiz!

[Luthiereisfun]

^^

I'm so hyped! What changes should we make to our sideboard now that Maverick Christmas is finally happening?

Time to brew boiz!

In my sb I had garruk relentless for miracles mainly but it's still a fine grindy card. But I think I'm going to switch it to a toxic deluge (already being supported by 2x zp). I feel like deluge is really good against elves and infect, two bad matchups, and fine against DnT.

[Cpt-Qc]

I was trying Garruk as well and was also thinking of dropping him. It did make our Shardless BUG matchup better but it's not like that changed much, it was mainly there for the deceased.

[lavafrogg]

Gideon now counters all of the -1/-1 effects that will be everywhere, and he stomps BUG.

[NEELEY]

Well my friends we got some decisions. My guess is we have the return of stoneblade. Show and tell, elves and storm are going to be our major threats. Let's see some list!

[Luthiereisfun]

Well my friends we got some decisions. My guess is we have the return of stoneblade. Show and tell, elves and storm are going to be our major threats. Let's see some list!

My current list runs 3sfm and 3 equipment (SoLaS/SoFaI and jitte)....I am debating do I go back down to 2 sfm and just SOFI/JiTTE and add 2x Prelate to help with combo?

List would be as such

Creatures (25)
4x DRS
4x Mom
4x Thalia GoT
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Sanctum Prelate

Spells (13)
4x GSZ
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Land (22)
1x forest
1x plains
4x windswept heath
3x verdant catacombs
4x wasteland
1x karakas
1x gaea's cradle
1x horizon canopy
1x cavern of souls
2x savanah
2x bayou
1x scrubland

Sb
2x ethersworn canonist
1x gaddock teeg
2x zealous persecution
1x toxic deluge
1x qasali pridemage
2x choke
2x surgical extraction
3x thoughtseize
1x pithing needle

Other options are to up the maindeck Qasali Pridemage to 2x and add something else relevant...Keep 3x sfm and replace Sword of Light and Shadow with Batterskull..Honestly not sure

edit: Another option is to take out Abrupt Decay for Prelate. Prelate's cost of 2 white is tough but it would mean there is no MD black and I could just focus on G/W. In matchups where I'd want prelate on 2 against BUG it would also feel bad to turn off my own decays. Choices choices.

[timmyod17]

Well my friends we got some decisions. My guess is we have the return of stoneblade. Show and tell, elves and storm are going to be our major threats. Let's see some list!

I think this is pretty accurate. Most combo gets a boost from the banning. Elves definitely benefits. Wondering if other creature-based combo (Aluren, Food Chain) will also benefit. I also think D&T will gain somewhat as well, as their Miracles matchup was mediocre at best. Grindy BUG/Leovold/4c Pile decks will probably collectively be the default "best deck."

I think this change lets us perhaps move away from Abrupt Decay and more towards a straight G/W only shell aside from cards from the sideboard. Running a 4th Thalia might become the norm again if combo becomes more prevalent. Additional Stoneforge Mystics seem good and maybe even good old Batterskull might make a comeback.

As for other cards, I think perhaps Containment Priest might be worth playing once again to help combat D&T, Elves, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and Dredge. Cutting the sideboard Gaddock Teeg is worth considering. Engineered Plague is a card I've wanted to fit in for some time - great against D&T, Elves, and even decks that run TNN.

[Koby]

See my signature, unchanged.

[lavafrogg]

See my signature, unchanged.

Still calling the deck dead? Sad, I was super excited to see that you posted in Mav after all this time.

We need to see where all the blue players flock, delver and stone blade will be popular but so will the DRS fueled 3-4 color decks. Sanctum Prelate on 1 shuts all of that crap down. I feel like my list from yesterday is even more viable now, maybe a sword change depending on what is played.

[Luthiereisfun]

Still calling the deck dead? Sad, I was super excited to see that you posted in Mav after all this time.

We need to see where all the blue players flock, delver and stone blade will be popular but so will the DRS fueled 3-4 color decks. Sanctum Prelate on 1 shuts all of that crap down. I feel like my list from yesterday is even more viable now, maybe a sword change depending on what is played.

Is 1 what you name against bug usually (talking about tnn/Leo builds)

[lavafrogg]

Is 1 what you name against bug usually (talking about tnn/Leo builds)

For the most part, yes. No Fatal Push, no brainstorm, spell pierce, ponder, stifle, thoughtsieze. With a mother out they need 2 Abrupt decays to escape the lock, and knight can keep them off of BGBG(god forbid a Thalia is in the board).


Other note:
Scryb Ranger gets a huge boost as a delver fighter, Blessed Alliance is now playable with the probable TNN decks, dust off your manrikis, Renegade Rallier could also be a think seeing how creatures will go to the graveyard now

[Claymore]

I imagine Cradles will explode - either through just speculators or performance, get them now boys.

[Koby]

Still calling the deck dead? Sad, I was super excited to see that you posted in Mav after all this time.


The old maverick is a dud. The new Maverick will reign.

[lavafrogg]

Elves was tier 1 for a while and has since been a crowd favorite, it would be speculators if anything.. good thing we only play 1.

@Koby... !!!

[Luthiereisfun]

If elves and creature.dec become more prevelant does Thalia 2.0 deserve another look?

[lavafrogg]

For elves we will have jitte/prelate/teeg and prayer, Thalia and wasteland not helping means we have dead cards aplenty. After the board we get ethersworn canonist as our main option to stall until jitte is online.

Just like DnT vs Elves, we just don't match up well against tons of 1 drop creatures.

Any creature.dec that isn't as fast as elves has to deal with Swords/Knight/Mom/Stoneforge and I think we will be favored against.

[Stuart]

If elves and creature.dec become more prevelant does Thalia 2.0 deserve another look?

Was wondering the same thing.

Apologies if this already got asked and buried since this thread blew up, but does Teeg move to the board now? Feels to me that without Terminus, we don't need a mainboard 2/2 who shuts off our GSZs and is dead in some matchups. He'd free up a space for other spice, such as new Thalia or Renegade Rallier. That said, if Storm comes back in a big way maybe he needs to stay in the main.

[lavafrogg]

Was wondering the same thing.

Apologies if this already got asked and buried since this thread blew up, but does Teeg move to the board now? Feels to me that without Terminus, we don't need a mainboard 2/2 who shuts off our GSZs and is dead in some matchups. He'd free up a space for other spice, such as new Thalia or Renegade Rallier. That said, if Storm comes back in a big way maybe he needs to stay in the main.

I am currently on 3 mainboard prelates and will consider moving teeg to the board as prelate+Thalia should be good for game one. Renegade Rallier is a very real possibility and there is a Displacer list from Japan that abuses the hell out of him. I don't know how much we can count on Renegade Rallier as he is much better in Vial lists and doesn't really fix a weakness towards DRS.

Punishing Maverick with Prelates might deserve some attention if DRS and company take over.

[Luthiereisfun]

I honestly think there's some real merit to new Thalia now. It blocks Leo like a champ, slows down infect/elves (problem matchups) and slows down to some degree combo if they only have fetches. Even if it just gave us 1 extra turn to GSZ for teeg/hatepiece I think that's pretty good. Also shuts down Sneak attack.

It was bad vs miracles which is when i think running other things like abrupt decay was more relevant and had better universal use.

[lavafrogg]

I honestly think there's some real merit to new Thalia now. It blocks Leo like a champ, slows down infect/elves (problem matchups) and slows down to some degree combo if they only have fetches. Even if it just gave us 1 extra turn to GSZ for teeg/hatepiece I think that's pretty good. Also shuts down Sneak attack.

It was bad vs miracles which is when i think running other things like abrupt decay was more relevant and had better universal use.

Get to testing!