[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Cpt-Qc]

I've always thought that THC was good in tons of matchups. What I don't think has changed is more legendaries makes us weaker to Karakas.

This was a problem about 2-3 months ago when DnT swarmed most metas but I'm not sure it's that big a deal right now that people moved on to other decks. I guess we'll need to see in which direction the meta moves but if people go to BUG/4c decks, DnT might become more popular as well.

[TMagpie]

I find Orim's Chant to be absolutely essential to having a positive elves matchup. It's main boon is that it provides maverick the ability to stop either a Glimpse turn, or a natural order turn using its silence/fog effects. If elves is going to be rising in popularity, the white Counterspell will do lots.

[Koby]

I find Orim's Chant to be absolutely essential to having a positive elves matchup. It's main boon is that it provides maverick the ability to stop either a Glimpse turn, or a natural order turn using its silence/fog effects. If elves is going to be rising in popularity, the white Counterspell will do lots.

Dawnstrider?
Spore Frog?

At least these are tutorable, even though they are more limited in scope than Orim's Chant.

[Megadeus]

I agree. That was one of my first thoughts is that new Thalia is really good. I'll be jamming them

[Luthiereisfun]

I find Orim's Chant to be absolutely essential to having a positive elves matchup. It's main boon is that it provides maverick the ability to stop either a Glimpse turn, or a natural order turn using its silence/fog effects. If elves is going to be rising in popularity, the white Counterspell will do lots.

so its been good for you? I like that it's also good against storm and can be cast t1 but generally I lean towards more permanent based hate.

[Scott]

... new Thalia ... Also shuts down Sneak attack.

Just a note learned from my 5 minutes testing Loxodon Gatekeeper in Soldier Stompy years ago: A rules-aware Sneak player will sneak the creature in at the end of your turn and attack the next turn.

[Luthiereisfun]

Just a note learned from my 5 minutes testing Loxodon Gatekeeper in Soldier Stompy years ago: A rules-aware Sneak player will sneak the creature in at the end of your turn and attack the next turn.

ahhh good catch

[Megadeus]

Just a note learned from my 5 minutes testing Loxodon Gatekeeper in Soldier Stompy years ago: A rules-aware Sneak player will sneak the creature in at the end of your turn and attack the next turn.

True, but they can never beat a Thalia + Karakas.

[TMagpie]

so its been good for you? I like that it's also good against storm and can be cast t1 but generally I lean towards more permanent based hate.

It's actually about having both.

They bounce Teeg end of turn, attempt to go off on theirs only to get silenced, they pass and you recast Teeg.

Opponent topdecks sneak attack, casts it, and puts a creature into play. They go to combat and they have to skip combat, they then sacrifice their creature at end of turn.

Opponent casts Aluren, in response to you silence them. Aluren hits the battlefield and you cast your Pridemage and kill Aluren without them able to respond.

It provides an instant speed way to interact with how your opponents normally have to interact your permanent based hate. Sometimes discard allows you to get rid of a key piece and sometimes silence stops them after they've commuted an excess of resources.

I used to use Chant over Thoughtseize exclusively until the Dig through time era of Omnishow. I switched to Thoughtseize because Silence was only good if you also had a Reclamation Sage in hand.

It's not a must--but it's actually a fantastic effect against elves because it gives your normal weapons a chance to kill elves without dying to elve's topdecks.

It's better than things like dawnstrider because all cards like that do against elves is force them to beat you fairly and have no use against any other matchup. Chant is a great Spell against both storm, elves, and s&t. Actual fog effects are only good versus elves.

[beardstorm]

I imagine Cradles will explode - either through just speculators or performance, get them now boys.
I had to order one last night. Quickest impulse purchase of my Magic career...

[Lormador]

Did Maverick just become great again? I remember that summer before Miracles.

[lavafrogg]

Did Maverick just become great again? I remember that summer before Miracles.

Maverick still has the Great Wall of DRS and all of his BUG friends to deal with. Against a DRS knights will always be small as we don't really have a way to remove him after swords.

I think if we can jump that hurdle, we have a chance.

On a random note: could a Smugglers copter/Renegade Rallier engine work? It would give you super recurring Pridemage/wastelands/fetchlands/Horizon canopies and destroyed copters could be brought back as well.

Copter loves exalted, and Provides a decent clock and a draw engine....also, Scryb Ranger could be used for enabling the copter and the Rallier!

[DoomRabbit]

It feels like if the meta does go towards DRS durdle fest then punishing fire is a viable option, although of course DRS exiles punishing fire, but it does mean 7-8 maindeck removal spells.

[Warden]

I see Maverick continuing to have a hard time. Lots of shit coming out the woodwork with Miracles' anticipated decline.
I still foresee UWx control being a thing (everyone acting likes it's a dead archetype already). I think the meta shifts to become faster -- burn, RUG delver maybe coming back, other delver decks still popular, reanimator and sneak still being strong, elves, lands, etc.

IMO punishing fire is too slow. And DRS decks more or less invalidate said card (either by eating it or playing cards that mitigate pfires engine). If there's an immediate change to Maverick, it's that we should probably run 2 or more Pridemage. I see SFM rising in the meta, moon effects, artifacts like chalice all rising. I'd also like to pursue ghost quarter, which I believe increases in value. Nearly every deck is multicolor. These look like strip mines right now lol.

[Megadeus]

Any thought of moving back to straight GW now that decay for CB isn't needed? Or is Deathrite Decay too good to not play? GW allows better mana, and less losses to moons. Also Maverick was traditionally very good against the Stoneblade decks that are expected to pop up again. The only real issue with GW is you definitely need to find answers to true name, but I think 2-3 Blessed Alliance (also good against Delver and Eldrazi expected to pop up) in the board is good, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar is probably going to also be very good against the Delver/BUG decks as well as Eldrazi and it's insane against Elves.

My future going forward list right now in the blind maybe would look something like this:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I actually could see 2 of these maybe if True Name is expected heavily)
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace (this may be wrong, but it's really powerful against Lands)

[Luthiereisfun]

For the BUG control/midrange, Czech Pile control type decks I'm going to test a 1 of Sigarda in the sb. The main problem with Sigarda is the mana cost and just being to slow. But those matchups seem to be a grindy trade of resources that takes us to the mid game. They also don't pressure our mana very hard. They do have wasteland but it seems to be more for hitting utility lands or tempo plays early on if it presents itself.

I play Sigarda in Nic Fit and against GBx lotV decks she is an absolute house. The only way to kill her is through Toxic Deluge for them.

I need to do more testing against this MU but my hope is that the only real problem cards for us are DRS (as others have mentioned) for shrinking our Knights and allowing them to gain mana/tempo advantage and start pulling ahead of us early on. I think Jace/Lilli are also problematic. If we're both trading removal and then on an empty board they drop one of their PW that is very bad. They then just start to take over the game. I believe the PW problem is part of the DRS issue. DRS technically allows turn 2 lili and turn 3 Jace if appropriate. This is why killing early DRS and using Thalia/wasteland will still be a relevant gameplan against them imo.

Fast TNN starts are also dangerous but we can race with SOFI or stabilize with SOLAS/Jitte and post sb have access to zealous persecution.

As far as Leovold and Goyf go my hope is that we can just challenge them with bigger Knights/Scooze or equipment even.

I have done a little testing and so far with new Thalia I have found that in mid to late game when the other deck has already set up most of its lands and creatures a card like Thalia 2.0 doesn't pull us back. I suppose the same could be said for old Thalia but she also costs 1 less. However in the early game and if we can pump her out turn 2 the card is absolutely back breaking. It gives fair decks such a headache. So I hope she can be our own T2 drop that gives BUG a headache with all their non basics.

[Skizz]

i play Thalia 2.0 since shes out and she is backbreaking sometimes..
Sigarda is probably the best fatty you want in a bug meta.
i had a lot of games where turn 3 Sigarda has ended games rather quickly.

IMO i would not go straight GW. sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution/Toxic, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtsize are really important.

i really like your inclusion of blessed alliance in the board. i think i will try and add 1 or 2.
great against every big monster like progenitus/griseldaddy/nemesis/etc. also good against burn to maybe buy you 1 more turn.

[TMagpie]

I have found all the leovold, shardless, and BUG lists in general to only be slightly harder than a bye. And since I run Scryb Ranger and Dark Depths, it is often them complaining that their deathrites feel invalidated. I am unsure anything at all needs to be changed against them unless they change themselves so drastically as to no longer be similar to their current itirations.

I am currently testing and experimenting with possible top replacements for my miracles list. Essentially, I fear the complacency that assuming miracles brings. So if I can find a variant first--even if it's 5-10 percent worse than the original, it would still be good enough to crush green men's dreams.

[Luthiereisfun]

I have found all the leovold, shardless, and BUG lists in general to only be slightly harder than a bye. And since I run Scryb Ranger and Dark Depths, it is often them complaining that their deathrites feel invalidated. I am unsure anything at all needs to be changed against them unless they change themselves so drastically as to no longer be similar to their current itirations.

I am currently testing and experimenting with possible top replacements for my miracles list. Essentially, I fear the complacency that assuming miracles brings. So if I can find a variant first--even if it's 5-10 percent worse than the original, it would still be good enough to crush green men's dreams.

I'm not quite sold on dark depths but the fact that it seemably crushes BUG makes a good case for it.

[TMagpie]

I'm not quite sold on dark depths but the fact that it seemably crushes BUG makes a good case for it.

It's just a different axis. Since they don't run either Karakas or Exile effects, instant speed indestructible flyer can often kill them even when they're ahead. You don't go for it immediately, you try to kill them with Sfm, Knights, moms, etc... and only if you either see an opening or if your board state gets wrecked do you start searching. I also love that if they Brick your knight with Truename you just make a flyer they can't kill and beat them anyway.

Edit::

Depths combo is not an easy splash. I run 4 DRS, 1 BoP, 22 mana producing lands and run 61 cards just to fit the Depths. (I also use 4 SFM and a Maze so that also really stuffs card space)

Ie, you have to *want* the effect of you want to run it.

[lavafrogg]

Any thought of moving back to straight GW now that decay for CB isn't needed? Or is Deathrite Decay too good to not play? GW allows better mana, and less losses to moons. Also Maverick was traditionally very good against the Stoneblade decks that are expected to pop up again. The only real issue with GW is you definitely need to find answers to true name, but I think 2-3 Blessed Alliance (also good against Delver and Eldrazi expected to pop up) in the board is good, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar is probably going to also be very good against the Delver/BUG decks as well as Eldrazi and it's insane against Elves.

My future going forward list right now in the blind maybe would look something like this:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I actually could see 2 of these maybe if True Name is expected heavily)
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

SB:
3 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace (this may be wrong, but it's really powerful against Lands)

I'm tearing up... new Maverick lists....

That being said, I love the Heirarch over DRS for the guaranteed mana generation. Especially against the new insurgence of DRS.

Take a look at Prelate, as I think turn 2 prelates are the future of the deck.

[Roland_Deschain]

What do you guys think about mirran crusader?
On an stoneforge build its very powerfull.
And cares not about goyfs, leovolds, fatal pushs, decays etc...

[lavafrogg]

What do you guys think about mirran crusader?
On an stoneforge build its very powerfull.
And cares not about goyfs, leovolds, fatal pushs, decays etc...

I have been trying to piece together a build that does not rely on the graveyard, so we can run RiP against snapcaster/goyf/DRS.dec, and Miriam Crusader is a front runner for slots in that list. Knight is just so big in the reanimator/show and eldrazi matchups for just being so big.

[Luthiereisfun]

I have been trying to piece together a build that does not rely on the graveyard, so we can run RiP against snapcaster/goyf/DRS.dec, and Miriam Crusader is a front runner for slots in that list. Knight is just so big in the reanimator/show and eldrazi matchups for just being so big.

RIP is good and I don't blame you for trying to put it in. I like what Thomas Herzog in a podcast said however, something along the lines of gy hate is good against us but we can fight through it.

It shrinks Knight but we still have equipment to make big threats. If other decks try to bring in to much guy hate against us they're just diluting their deck.

I also like the idea of Noble. Very consistent and adds pressure + a human to be named off cavern. That said DRS can produce black which can be relevant post SB and also pressures with 2 grim lavamancer to the face and is GY hate.

For me right now it's apples and oranges moving forward and we can only really tell where we might want to shift towards once the meta settles a little.

So far BUG doesn't seem bad. If they start packing more dread of night/toxic deluge however that could be bad. Bloodmoon decks can also be rough so I could see it being reasonable to try and up the basic count at some point.

Overall I think we're in a good spot. Reanimator and Storm and Sneak and Show are very reasonable matchups (omni Sneak being quite a bit tougher) and same goes for lands/BUG/stoneblade decks...I think we will have a lot of close matchups that we can close the gap through tight play and our *tricks* to gain some percentage points.

Elves and Infect still worry me. For Elves md 2x Thalia 2.0 is my answer pre sb to try and make it at least a little better. So far new Thalia has been pretty good and even if she comes in at the stage of the game where an opponent has a bit more developed board state the 3/2 first strike is not bad and carries equipment well.

3x sfm also feels really good. T1 mother of runes into T2 SFM is quite the beating against a lot of fair decks.

I'm going to an 80 man "win a lotus" event this Saturday. Hope to check back in and post findings and results from it.

[DoomRabbit]

Bloodmoon decks can also be rough so I could see it being reasonable to try and up the basic count at some point.

I've been running 4 basics for a while now (2x forest, 1x plains, 1x swamp), and i've been very happy with that setup. Fetching one of each is easy enough and can cast the entire deck (barring courser of kruphix in my list). Makes blood moon/ wasteland way less good against the deck.

[Luthiereisfun]

I've been running 4 basics for a while now (2x forest, 1x plains, 1x swamp), and i've been very happy with that setup. Fetching one of each is easy enough and can cast the entire deck (barring courser of kruphix in my list). Makes blood moon/ wasteland way less good against the deck.

I really like the idea of 4 basics. I think for my deck I would want 2x forest 2x plains

My current mana base is as such.

Lands: 22
4x windswept Heath
3x verdant catacombs
1x forest
1x plains
1x karakas
1x gaeas's cradle
1x horizon canopy
1x cavern of souls
2x Savannah
2x bayou
1x scrubland
4x wasteland

So my list runs G/W MD with 3 thoughtseize, 2 zealous persecution and toxic deluge as its black sb cards.

To add another forest and plains my initial thought is to swap out the cavern of souls and a bayou. Cavern in general is a flex slot and there's no MD black so cutting the second MD bayou seems to make most sense. Going down to 6 fetches could also be correct but that's less quick DRS food and general fixing. The other concern is then having 9 turn 1 black sources. Thoughtseize is a card that generally is my best T1 play against combo and 10 black sources already feels light.

I think this is definitely a situation where just running it/testing it is most appropriate and making dirtier changes from there. But maybe some of you can glean some wisdom on me.

Edit: The black sources are too important to hit and already light enough that for my current list the only thing I can cut with a clean conscious is Cavern. It replaced Forest x2 for Miracles but now doesn't make as much sense. Against bloodmoon decks we only really need one green source to GSZ for QP and being able to set up 3 lands that can't be wasted is really all we need I suppose. I think 4 would be most ideal but if it means I have less chance of getting the thoughtseize/zp off when I need to I don't think it's worth it.

[Roland_Deschain]

And the Peacekeeper against elfs, sneak attack? maybe with a fauna Shaman in main deck?

[DoomRabbit]

Lands: 22
4x windswept Heath
3x verdant catacombs
1x forest
1x plains
1x karakas
1x gaeas's cradle
1x horizon canopy
1x cavern of souls
2x Savannah
2x bayou
1x scrubland
4x wasteland


My mana base is almost identical, with - cavern, bayou for forest, swamp.
I run main deck abrupt decay though, so that's where the swamp comes in, means I can cast decays through a blood moon

[razamarth]

Hey,
This is my last post about Maverick (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=984124&highlight=#post984124).

In that list I changed sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge (big table clean)
1 Chalice of the Void (tutorable all in one star card, big what the f*** effect :) )
1 Crucible of Worlds (tutorable Life from the Loam Effect)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

And I tested:
Renegade Rallier - After some testing, effect is too random, in theory he can back to game lands (wasteland, stage, dark depths) and hate beards. Refresh old problem with Eternal Witness - Deathrite Shaman and better targets for zenith.

When and where I want use - Sanctum Prelate?
Pure or almost pure green-white version of deck.
Almost only with 4 Swords to Plowshares and Aether Vial / Green Sun's Zenith pack.
With more mana dorks to drop him in second turn.
In more like DnT deck without Enlightened Tutors in sideboard.
We really need him? In the past Maverick can won with combo etc.

[Warden]

What do you guys think about mirran crusader?
On an stoneforge build its very powerfull.
And cares not about goyfs, leovolds, fatal pushs, decays etc...

I want 3 in my maindeck and then I'll adjust accordingly. I was running 4x SFM so that definitely influences my opinion of him. With equipment he's gravy.

[Humberto]

Is not Prelade slow?
Peacekeeper with fauna on main deck does not remain unviable?

[lavafrogg]

Is not Prelade slow?
Peacekeeper with fauna on main deck does not remain unviable?

Prelate comes online turn 2, which is standard for hate bears in legacy, especially when we run 4 GSZ/4 Heirarch/1 Dryar Arbor. Fauna Shaman comes online turn 3 at the earliest and if you hit all of your land drops you can have a turn 3 peacekeeper against elves... more likely turn 4.

[ironclad8690]

I have taken gsz build into two leagues, one 3-2s and 1 0-3 (weird matchups).

I think vial may still be worth it.

[Luthiereisfun]

I have taken gsz build into two leagues, one 3-2s and 1 0-3 (weird matchups).

I think vial may still be worth it.

What did you face?

[ironclad8690]

I want 3 in my maindeck and then I'll adjust accordingly. I was running 4x SFM so that definitely influences my opinion of him. With equipment he's gravy.


What did you face?

League 1:

Sneak and show: 2-0
Storm: 2-1
BRgw Zombardment: 0-2
Bant/b: 2-1
Burn: 1-2

League 2

Storm with Daze (is this a thing?): 1-2
Burn: 0-2 (his draw lined up perfectly with mine)
UWr Blade/snapcaster/sweepers/jace: 0-2

Started off another league:

Elves: 0-2
Storm: 2-0
Sneak and Show: 2-0
UWr Geist of st traft: 2-0

I am going to do a lot of testing of all versions (zenith, vial, punishing), because I really want to just play this deck for the rest of my life.

I also plan on streaming some of this, so I will keep you guys posted

[aspsnake]

On the topic of cutting black.

Think of this: D&T, Elves, Aluren and TNN are on the rise. What does it mean for us?

It means that all -1/-1 effects, which many people have been cutting, are back to sideboards. Really, people. Don't play Hierarch over DRS in the new meta, or you will be heavily punished by Zealous Persecutions, Golgari Charms, Marsh Casualties and other stuff like that.

Black offers us many highly useful things, namely Decay (Delver come closer), Thoughtseize (it is really strong vs combo decks, I don't leave home without at least 3 in sb), and Persecutions to deal with all the abovementioned decks ourselves.

I think that a good compromise between speed and CA will be the way to go. I'm probably going to the next FNM with 4DRS + 1NH, 2+1 ADs, 1 Tracker and a Courser or a Rallier. I also think that Maze might make the way to the deck once again (previously, I really didn't wanna draw it against Miracles, but now - oh yeah).

Not sure what I think of Prelates, but it might be a strong sideboard card, since RUG Delver might become a thing again, and it helps in many other problematic matchups, e.g. Storm or Sneak and Show.

[TMagpie]

On the topic of cutting black.

Think of this: D&T, Elves, Aluren and TNN are on the rise. What does it mean for us?

It means that all -1/-1 effects, which many people have been cutting, are back to sideboards. Really, people. Don't play Hierarch over DRS in the new meta, or you will be heavily punished by Zealous Persecutions, Golgari Charms, Marsh Casualties and other stuff like that.

Black offers us many highly useful things, namely Decay (Delver come closer), Thoughtseize (it is really strong vs combo decks, I don't leave home without at least 3 in sb), and Persecutions to deal with all the abovementioned decks ourselves.

I think that a good compromise between speed and CA will be the way to go. I'm probably going to the next FNM with 4DRS + 1NH, 2+1 ADs, 1 Tracker and a Courser or a Rallier. I also think that Maze might make the way to the deck once again (previously, I really didn't wanna draw it against Miracles, but now - oh yeah).

Not sure what I think of Prelates, but it might be a strong sideboard card, since RUG Delver might become a thing again, and it helps in many other problematic matchups, e.g. Storm or Sneak and Show.

I loved Maze vs Miracle primarily to get extra value from KotR and DRS

[lavafrogg]

To keep things moving I currently have 2 builds:

Noble Heirarch and Sanctum Prelate

Heirarch ensures turn 2 Prelate/Knight/crusader and the list is mostly humans for Cavern of Souls to have value. Not much to be said as his is mostly the standard list with only Pridemage as a tutor target game one... exalted triggers on crusader are dumb.

Or

Renegade Rallier and Smugglers Copter

The looter scooter lets your Thalia's and Moms fly over for 3 and a loot, while filling up the graveyard for Renegade Rallier, the deck currently has 3 Scryb Rangers for interactions with DRS, Scooter and Remegade Rallier, as she always gives a Revolt Trigger.

Anyone else brewing?

[lavafrogg]

League 1:

Sneak and show: 2-0
Storm: 2-1
BRgw Zombardment: 0-2
Bant/b: 2-1
Burn: 1-2

League 2

Storm with Daze (is this a thing?): 1-2
Burn: 0-2 (his draw lined up perfectly with mine)
UWr Blade/snapcaster/sweepers/jace: 0-2

Started off another league:

Elves: 0-2
Storm: 2-0
Sneak and Show: 2-0
UWr Geist of st traft: 2-0

I am going to do a lot of testing of all versions (zenith, vial, punishing), because I really want to just play this deck for the rest of my life.

I also plan on streaming some of this, so I will keep you guys posted

Sounds like you are running pretty good given the matchups. UW control will always be an issue, so that 2nd league is just nightmare after nightmare. The rest of your games seem decent.

[Megadeus]

I disagree. I think you should be able to handle UWx Stoneblade decks. Especially if you run many pride mage. None of their threats are good without equipment. And after board choke is still something I'd be running if I were you.

[DoomRabbit]

I am going to do a lot of testing of all versions (zenith, vial, punishing), because I really want to just play this deck for the rest of my life.


How do you feel about punishing? It was the original version of the deck that grabbed my attention, so I've always had a soft spot for it, but I've never really played it.
Tried it earlier this week, and it felt super clunky after playing GWb for the past year. It also feels like quite a different deck, so I was most likely playing it wrong.

[ironclad8690]

I disagree. I think you should be able to handle UWx Stoneblade decks. Especially if you run many pride mage. None of their threats are good without equipment. And after board choke is still something I'd be running if I were you.

The issue with this deck was more he had so many 2 for 1s that I just got ground out. It didn't really matter what he won with, he went swords snapcaster too many times. Post board he pyroclasmed me and EE'd me. Luckily I know the pilot, and he said it can't win vs combo.


How do you feel about punishing? It was the original version of the deck that grabbed my attention, so I've always had a soft spot for it, but I've never really played it.
Tried it earlier this week, and it felt super clunky after playing GWb for the past year. It also feels like quite a different deck, so I was most likely playing it wrong.

I like punishing maverick a lot, I cashed multiple scgs with it before. I think you still need the black so it's quite greedy however. I play 23 lands in my version. Just treat it like Naya stoneblade.

[CptHaddock]

I like punishing maverick a lot, I cashed multiple scgs with it before. I think you still need the black so it's quite greedy however. I play 23 lands in my version. Just treat it like Naya stoneblade.

I feel the exact same way. Punishing fire does the lord's work when everyone is trying to play fairly, you also can heavily game your sideboard for combo decks + you get things like sudden demise and pyroblast as potential sideboard. I think it was someone on the source that did well with it last year (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/443136#online).

[Megadeus]

My problem with PFire right now is that the uptick of Leotard/True Name BUG decks and combo decks that PFire is pretty shitty.

[DoomRabbit]

I like punishing maverick a lot, I cashed multiple scgs with it before. I think you still need the black so it's quite greedy however. I play 23 lands in my version. Just treat it like Naya stoneblade.

Cool! Any chance for a list? Really keen to give it a fair shot. I was straight naya in the list I tried.

[NEELEY]

I may be wrong on this....

Punishing Maverick is a worst version of Maverick. If you want to play punishing fire I would play aggro loam. Combo is deffinently going to increase and so will elves and TNN decks. If we don't play black I think we will have a hard time dealing with these archetypes.

Just my opinion

[menloe]

I feel the exact same way. Punishing fire does the lord's work when everyone is trying to play fairly, you also can heavily game your sideboard for combo decks + you get things like sudden demise and pyroblast as potential sideboard. I think it was someone on the source that did well with it last year (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/443136#online).

That's Seraphix on this forum. Punishing Maverick also did well at MKM last year in the hands of Fabien Gorzgen and at EE5 in the hands of Mark Strassman (Strassbaw on this forum??) I always hoped that Gorzgen might find his way to this forum to enlighten us as to the ways of the Pun Mav since it appears to be the only deck he has played for the past six years, but, oh ho, alas, alas, he has not.

Their lists:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12433&d=271511&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13842&d=281765&f=LE

[Luthiereisfun]

Obviously this is speculation and no one really knows what the meta will look like exactly...but I think moving forward Maverick will be a deck with a lot of 50/50 MU with a few its favored against and a few unfavored. Speaking to that I think I want to try and keep my list as flexible as possible.

So far in testing Sigarda has been great. Against any grindy/fair MU it's such a beating. Great against the control decks as well. For now I'm keeping it in the SB as my fair MU bomb to bring in.

Thalia 2.0 is also proving herself well. I think her biggest benefit is being really good against one of our worst MU but still being good against a lot of the field. So far 2x feels really good. Any more and you start to run into the problem of getting stuck in hand with them and it just being blanked by karakas. I also don't want to clutter the deck with 3 drops. It's currently the flex slot but I don't think I'd want to go down to 1. You want to see it as early as possible and as a non GSZ'able 3 drop I think I would only see it more mid-late game where it's not nearly as effective.

[Megadeus]

Obviously this is speculation and no one really knows what the meta will look like exactly...but I think moving forward Maverick will be a deck with a lot of 50/50 MU with a few its favored against and a few unfavored. Speaking to that I think I want to try and keep my list as flexible as possible.

So far in testing Sigarda has been great. Against any grindy/fair MU it's such a beating. Great against the control decks as well. For now I'm keeping it in the SB as my fair MU bomb to bring in.

Thalia 2.0 is also proving herself well. I think her biggest benefit is being really good against one of our worst MU but still being good against a lot of the field. So far 2x feels really good. Any more and you start to run into the problem of getting stuck in hand with them and it just being blanked by karakas. I also don't want to clutter the deck with 3 drops. It's currently the flex slot but I don't think I'd want to go down to 1. You want to see it as early as possible and as a non GSZ'able 3 drop I think I would only see it more mid-late game where it's not nearly as effective.

If you can get aggressive enough with mana denial and removal she can stay live a fairly long time. It was always surprising to me how relevant she was at times even on turn 5+ when you are trying to close the game or get through a key attack with a weapon that will turn the tide of the game and their dude that would normally block can't, or you have them cut from a color and they can't find it on time. Or it buys your cradle an extra turn from an opposing wasteland to really give you a massive advantage. I ran 3 of her (albeit accidentally because I had a massive deck Reg error) at the last win a mox here and got top 8 largely on her back.

[ironclad8690]

Cool! Any chance for a list? Really keen to give it a fair shot. I was straight naya in the list I tried.

Here is my Punishing Fire list:

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Pyroblast
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke

List is a little wonky, but still fine I think.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I ran vial mav through a league this morning, and I recorded videos.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6IeV45Qsvk4V8qJLBuZ5vF

I forgot how hard it is to record videos and talk while also playing well, so I make a couple of misplays.

I also recorded the last match of my previous league with Zenith:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PJevulVAtw

---

For future uploads, do you guys think I should upload a league in it's entirety (~2 hours a lot of the time)? Or is it better to just upload each match individually?

Also, what would you guys like to see next? Vial, Zenith, Punishing, Coralhelm, straight GW?

Just let me know :) Hope to finally get a good wealth of Maverick content.

[menloe]

Hey guys,

I ran vial mav through a league this morning, and I recorded videos.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6IeV45Qsvk4V8qJLBuZ5vF

I forgot how hard it is to record videos and talk while also playing well, so I make a couple of misplays.

I also recorded the last match of my previous league with Zenith:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PJevulVAtw

---

For future uploads, do you guys think I should upload a league in it's entirety (~2 hours a lot of the time)? Or is it better to just upload each match individually?

Also, what would you guys like to see next? Vial, Zenith, Punishing, Coralhelm, straight GW?

Just let me know :) Hope to finally get a good wealth of Maverick content.

Do that P-Fire thing, fam.

[blub96]

Hey guys,

I was playing Zoo for a while and have been working on my list after the TOP ban.
The original post from the zoo section is deleted cause i figured out that my zoo has transformed to a more Maverick than Zoo deck.

This is the List:



//Lands (22)
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa



//Creatures (25)
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Kavu Predator
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wild Nacatl



//Enchantments (2)
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalker (2)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

//Instant / Sorceries (9)
1 Fiery Justice
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares



//Sideboard
SB: 1 Fiery Justice
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Mystic Crusader
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction




So lets talk a bit about my choices.
The creatures are all well known good guys, but wait, who the fuck is this Kavu Predator?
I love him. He is the better Gofy 2/2 trample and growing with each Swords, or grove activation.
Come on, attack me with your Batterskull, Kavu is growing.

About the rest, there is nothing much to say.
Nacatl, DRS, Knight are bringing preasure to the board.
Mother protects them all and some Hatebears like Pridemage, Thalia, etc...

Sylvan Library nothing to say, everyone know the power.

Instants and Sorcerys:
Fiery Justice: YAY Kavucombo removal
Persecution (We hate this True-Name Nemesis and even good against Elves the new rising deck)
Punishing Fire, go home creature decks and Kavu growing with the grove <3
Swords: Again removal and Kavu growing. (Swords on Griseldaddy > Trigger > Kavu is 9/9 Trample, WOW I love this guy)

And put some Planeswalker on Top of it.
Elspeth give me some flying cats.
And This new Chandra, she is doing so much, an additional card to cast, if not, shock the opponent or take the spot removal and if you manage to ulti her = GG


So lets talk about something more interesting.
The Sideboard:

Really hard decisions had to be made and the TOP ban makes it harder cause noone knows what the new meta would excatly look like.
I think there will be more Combo, so take some hate against it, and these reanimator guys i dont like, some hate for them.
2 Pyroblast against this TNN, i dont want do be the choosen player, dont enter the battlefield please. But if he did, one more persecution wich is still good against Elves.

Lets talk about the more interessting guy you may not know:
Mystic Crusader

This guy is immune to most removal spells, good protection colors.
I loved the Aggro Loam player reading it again and again,
Marit Lage, iam ok with this, Mystic Crusader, best Crusader.



I think i like to bring some more Thalias into the deck,
cause the MTGO 5-0 List are too much Combo Decks.

I maybe cut a Recruiter and one Library...

[TMagpie]

I've just realized we can start running chokes again! Goodbye wear/tear snap wear/tear.

[Luthiereisfun]

Maybe you guys can help me brainstorm but I feel like I have found the fundamental problem that I have with beating elves.

It's that they almost always win G1. I just don't have enough cards that interact with any of their multiple axis to win by. MD I have two THC and we have Gaddock Teeg to slow them down. The other best bet is to win the die roll, T1 play dork, T2 sfm, and T3 equip and swing with jitte.

So they usually win G1. Post board I bring in 10 cards. Some better then others but they at least all interact on some level with them vs playing a 2/2 bear that they giggle at all the way to hoof town.

G2 on the play I feel like I have a lot of avenues to win by. It definitely feels winnable to an acceptable degree if this is supposed to be one our worst MU.

However the typical G3 on the draw feels miserable. Many times they just are able to get ahead much much further being on the play. Being one turn behind in this MU feels huge.

I see 2 ways to resolve this problem.

First is to try to improve chances of winning G1. I don't think I would want to MD Ethersworn/extra teeg but I could see being necessary if elves and storm are the new DTB. I could up the THC/SFM count which seems reasonable but the deck is already so tight that I don't want to hurt the decks overall flexibility. I could also try to add T1 interaction in The form of Thoughtseize/Push. That doesn't thrill me.

Spinning off of that I could try to add more T1 interaction from the SB. Thoughtseize is an obvious choice. There was some talk of Orims Chant which I am open too. We could also throw in a T1 kill spell like darkblast/push. Darkblast/push could be used in other MU but none that I think we want or need the extra spot removal.

Time will tell how important it is to be prepared for elves. Right now though it doesn't feel good and I want to believe there's a strategy we can capitalize on that doesn't hurt us overall.

[Cpt-Qc]

I've just realized we can start running chokes again! Goodbye wear/tear snap wear/tear.

I'm not quite sure Choke is a good sideboard card right now. I mean think about it, none of these drs shaman decks are gonna care too much, it's bad against combo and the 4c pile decks, and miracles is no more. Choke is at it's best against slow and durdly blue decks.. which is what exactly now?

And if your reason was wear/tear-snap-wear/tear, UWR stoneblade is probably gonna reappear in some amount so it'll happen again.

I know I took mine out of the board and you should probably consider it too.

[lavafrogg]

I'm not quite sure Choke is a good sideboard card right now. I mean think about it, none of these drs shaman decks are gonna care too much, it's bad against combo and the 4c pile decks, and miracles is no more. Choke is at it's best against slow and durdly blue decks.. which is what exactly now?

And if your reason was wear/tear-snap-wear/tear, UWR stoneblade is probably gonna reappear in some amount so it'll happen again.

I know I took mine out of the board and you should probably consider it too.

I replaced chokes with Winter Orbs a while ago, as Nic Fit, Miracles(RiP), Lands, Eldrazi and many other decks struggle when they can only untap one a turn. With Noble + Scryb Ranger we hardly skip a beat.

Some notes from this weeks testing, heading into a tourney tomorrow.

1. People need to be on the Sanctum Prelate train. She has uses against every deck, and absolutely crushes others. She also ensures we beat any slow combo draw, which is all a GW deck can ask for.

2. DRS is not what we need to be doing as our main source of dorki-ness, maybe as a 1 of for grindy games and to shut off opposing DRS. Heirarch lets us play more aggressive and ensures we hit our curve.

3. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is amazing in the current meta, he hard counters -1/-1 effects permanently with his ult in addition to making 2/2's and himself being a 5/5, he ends the game fast, using any of his abilities, he is immune to Toxic Deluge(which is everywhere)

4. Pridemage is a big deal right now.Vials, Alurens, Food Chain, Equipment, Blood Moons, Sylvan Libraries... so many things that need to be killed....

Anyone having success with any other builds?

Hopefully this week carries into tomorrow!

[Rascalyote]

IMO Deathrite Shaman is even better now than before as we're playing more black cards in our sideboard for elves//combo as well as there's more Deathrites for ours to fight and we play more lands // virtual copies of DRS in Zenith // scryb ranger so it doesn't hurt us as much to have ours sit back to contest theirs.

List I'm playing is pretty close to what I've been on before and I still want the decays as more catch-all removal spells never hurt. The basic swamp has been really nice in having a B source that doesn't get answered. I added Renegade Rallier because there's been times where my Scryb/Ooze etc was dead and I was like "man I wish I played 2 so I can zenith for it again" he does that but also double wastelands, gets back jitte, pridemage, etc.

My 4th Knight is a Tireless Tracker atm and it's been really nice, hard to notice the 4th Knight gone when you have 4 Zenith's and 3 Knights tbh and I like having the option to go for something that gets value even when answered pretty quickly.

Sideboard is changing a bunch time after time- ATM it's mostly streamlined for decks I'm pretty bad against but none of the cards are overly narrow, I do like to add a cheeky card to test from time to time.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Renegade Rallier
-25-

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-12-

2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
-23-

2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To The Slaughter (have yet to draw this, iunoo if it's good lol)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
-15-

[TMagpie]

IMO Deathrite Shaman is even better now than before as we're playing more black cards in our sideboard for elves//combo as well as there's more Deathrites for ours to fight and we play more lands // virtual copies of DRS in Zenith // scryb ranger so it doesn't hurt us as much to have ours sit back to contest theirs.

List I'm playing is pretty close to what I've been on before and I still want the decays as more catch-all removal spells never hurt. The basic swamp has been really nice in having a B source that doesn't get answered. I added Renegade Rallier because there's been times where my Scryb/Ooze etc was dead and I was like "man I wish I played 2 so I can zenith for it again" he does that but also double wastelands, gets back jitte, pridemage, etc.

My 4th Knight is a Tireless Tracker atm and it's been really nice, hard to notice the 4th Knight gone when you have 4 Zenith's and 3 Knights tbh and I like having the option to go for something that gets value even when answered pretty quickly.

Sideboard is changing a bunch time after time- ATM it's mostly streamlined for decks I'm pretty bad against but none of the cards are overly narrow, I do like to add a cheeky card to test from time to time.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Renegade Rallier
-25-

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-12-

2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
-23-

2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To The Slaughter (have yet to draw this, iunoo if it's good lol)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
-15-

What's the advantage of Rallier over SoLaS or EWitness?

[TMagpie]

I replaced chokes with Winter Orbs a while ago, as Nic Fit, Miracles(RiP), Lands, Eldrazi and many other decks struggle when they can only untap one a turn. With Noble + Scryb Ranger we hardly skip a beat.

Some notes from this weeks testing, heading into a tourney tomorrow.

1. People need to be on the Sanctum Prelate train. She has uses against every deck, and absolutely crushes others. She also ensures we beat any slow combo draw, which is all a GW deck can ask for.

2. DRS is not what we need to be doing as our main source of dorki-ness, maybe as a 1 of for grindy games and to shut off opposing DRS. Heirarch lets us play more aggressive and ensures we hit our curve.

3. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is amazing in the current meta, he hard counters -1/-1 effects permanently with his ult in addition to making 2/2's and himself being a 5/5, he ends the game fast, using any of his abilities, he is immune to Toxic Deluge(which is everywhere)

4. Pridemage is a big deal right now.Vials, Alurens, Food Chain, Equipment, Blood Moons, Sylvan Libraries... so many things that need to be killed....

Anyone having success with any other builds?

Hopefully this week carries into tomorrow!

When I first played Maverick the meta was super heavy in D&T and running 0 black and 4 Heirarchs allows you to really punish them. Only one deck forced me to splash any black card--and that was Miracles. I played Orim's Chant over thoughtseize and it got the job done vs combo majority of the time. When Miracles became prevalent, the first card that was forced to go was Heirarch since exalted is bad versus terminus...

With Miracles gone, I have to make that decision again of strong mana base versus DRS.

[pettdan]

What's the advantage of Rallier over SoLaS or EWitness?

I've been intending to mention this but scrap my comment every time I try to write something. Anyway, I changed my third copy of Abrupt Decay into a Renegade Rallier since it can bring back a Qasali Pridemage and destroy similar things. The upside is that it's card advantage and even more importantly you can bring back the important Jitte, as a bonus you can also bring back Sylvan Library, Scryb Ranger, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist and you have the tempo play of double Wasteland turns or ramping with a fetchland. But basically, bringing back Qasali and Jitte are probably the main advantages in my opinion, that way you get to play a second Jitte and a third Decay in one card that is Green Sun Zenithable.

Edit: the comparison with those cards is actually really relevant, I just wrote quickly since I wanted to comment on Rallier anyway, sorry! I guess the difference is that Rallier brings tempo and a larger body. Witness does very similar things, but without tempo and it's a 2/1 not a 3/2. Also the opponent won't know what's happening when you GSZ for the Rallier and put desired permanent into play, that can be useful in corner cases; especially in my list that currently has two Vials (should probably remove them now that Miracles is changed, but I'll try them a while longer), when using Vial the opponent won't be able to interact with counterspells on the returned permanent.

[Luthiereisfun]

I would love to go straight GW but I think Black is more important than ever. I think there will be a resurgence of TNN from not just BUG decks but stoneblade decks ported from Miracles. That + more elves means having sweepers in the SB matter. Not to mention zealous persecution can also be used to counter other sweepers played against us.

This is also why I am leaving DRS in. He dodges -1/-1 effects and helps fix colors for when the black mana is crucial.

On the topic of rallier, I like him. He is a very grindy card and gives something unique to Maverick. I cut him however because he was a flex slot and he doesn't help in MU that I feel like Maverick needs to start hedging against.

[menloe]

Maybe you guys can help me brainstorm but I feel like I have found the fundamental problem that I have with beating elves.

Aven Mindcensor can be main boarded and has applications against both Elves and Storm. It should be easy enough to shave an extra SFM, Pridemage, or even a DRS to make room depending on what you're comfortable doing. Obviously Teeg stays and additional room for Canonist can be made in the main if you're really concerned about these match ups, but that may be overkill.

[Luthiereisfun]

Aven Mindcensor can be main boarded and has applications against both Elves and Storm. It should be easy enough to shave an extra SFM, Pridemage, or even a DRS to make room depending on what you're comfortable doing. Obviously Teeg stays and additional room for Canonist can be made in the main if you're really concerned about these match ups, but that may be overkill.

I didn't think about mindcensor. That's a great suggestion. It's good vs fetches and flying matters. Would also be quite reasonable vs Stoneforge decks. Shutting down entomb is also a plus against reanimator.

The 1 toughness hurts but I could see mindcensor being another good inclusion for sure.

Any other MU he puts work in?

[menloe]

I didn't think about mindcensor. That's a great suggestion. It's good vs fetches and flying matters. Would also be quite reasonable vs Stoneforge decks. Shutting down entomb is also a plus against reanimator.

The 1 toughness hurts but I could see mindcensor being another good inclusion for sure.

Any other MU he puts work in?

You hit the big ones. Intuition, Eye of Ugin, and Godo?

Flying does matter and an Aven Mindcensor wearing a knife is sweet.

[ironclad8690]

Punishing Maverick deck tech and first 2 matches.

I will try to finish the league tomorrow.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6sRcFveDY2wYN94ULaak4A

[menloe]

Punishing Maverick deck tech and first 2 matches.

I will try to finish the league tomorrow.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6sRcFveDY2wYN94ULaak4A

Cheers m8 I'm gonna watch em.

[TMagpie]

Most of my wins against elves involves resolving Teeg, making a 20/20 flyer in the two turns it takes them to get around him, and killing them. Matchup is fine.

[Luthiereisfun]

Most of my wins against elves involves resolving Teeg, making a 20/20 flyer in the two turns it takes them to get around him, and killing them. Matchup is fine.

I don't run depths often so that is good to know. Without depths it does not feel nearly as good imo at the very least.

[TMagpie]

I don't run depths often so that is good to know. Without depths it does not feel nearly as good imo at the very least.

The point of depths is not that you need to run it--the point is that I want to clarify that the issue with elves is not that we don't have hate cards, but that we don't have an evasive clock. Anything we do elves will find a way out of it. You need a clock that has some form of evasion or all the hatebears/discard in the world is for naught.

Fogs are better since it stops their craterhoof trigger. But fogs are bad vs everything else--except for Orim's Chant, which is both fog (for elves) and countermagic (for storm). Its bad vs damn near everything else--but if you're looking for a card to help against storm and elves, that's a good go to.

[Megadeus]

Just go play New Thalia against elves and see how it goes. Card is pretty nuts in the match

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys, concluded my Punishing Maverick league:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6sRcFveDY2wYN94ULaak4A

And started a league with a standard GWb Zenith list.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW4PSaRHVCzDbbnPL4F1hrqc

Let me know if you think I should have played any differently in any of the matches, or if you have any feedback in general.

[TMagpie]

Just go play New Thalia against elves and see how it goes. Card is pretty nuts in the match

Unsure if a 3cc spell you can't search for is the best thing against elves--but if the plan is to get lucky I can understand.

[lavafrogg]

Unsure if a 3cc spell you can't search for is the best thing against elves--but if the plan is to get lucky I can understand.

Teeg is the only tutorable hate bear so I don't know what you mean here, also, we should have 3 mana turn two every game against a combo deck.

From a previous post I would have to say that Dark Depths is a terrible card against Elves and would only become active if they had a bad draw/unlucky. Turn 2 Teeg, Turn 3 knight is a turn 6 win which is pretty weak against Elves as they really just need 1 glimpse of nature to win by then.

Your best bet game one is Teeg and Jitte, game two you can get any number of options to slow elves down, Cage being one of the best if you are really worried... Containment Priest stops Zenith and Order while Canonist stops Glimpse. Still Jitte is going to be how you beat them most of the time. Still not a very good match up, but our best combo weapon(Thalia) does nothing against them.

@ironclad do you think Punishing Fire will be good in a meta where Leovold is going to see tons of play? Lands is going to get a huge boost with counterbalance gone but if BUG can play a UBG 3 drop through wasteland/port then I think it will be GG.

[ironclad8690]

Eh, not really, but I think fast decks will keep Leovold in check. Leovold decks lack enough meaningful interaction to consistently beat strong ANT/Sneak and Show/Elves players. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just dont see it happening.

Meanwhile, I think if someone can figure out the new gold standard for gwb zenith, that person could be significantly rewarded. Maybe Josh Katine's deck with 3 THC is the way to go. I am looking forward to trying this and other things out. I could see Bant splash doing work right now too. You get TNN and Spell Pierces. I want to try coralhelm again as I found it to be great against combo by speeding up your clock. So much room for innovation in this new meta :)

[TMagpie]

Teeg is the only tutorable hate bear so I don't know what you mean here, also, we should have 3 mana turn two every game against a combo deck.

From a previous post I would have to say that Dark Depths is a terrible card against Elves and would only become active if they had a bad draw/unlucky. Turn 2 Teeg, Turn 3 knight is a turn 6 win which is pretty weak against Elves as they really just need 1 glimpse of nature to win by then.

Your best bet game one is Teeg and Jitte, game two you can get any number of options to slow elves down, Cage being one of the best if you are really worried... Containment Priest stops Zenith and Order while Canonist stops Glimpse. Still Jitte is going to be how you beat them most of the time. Still not a very good match up, but our best combo weapon(Thalia) does nothing against them.

@ironclad do you think Punishing Fire will be good in a meta where Leovold is going to see tons of play? Lands is going to get a huge boost with counterbalance gone but if BUG can play a UBG 3 drop through wasteland/port then I think it will be GG.

In my experience, Teeg into Jitte does nothing but you watching elves draw cards. Many running needle, null rod, and masses of abrupt decays. Jitte only wins you the game if elves draws nothing.

Its more important to have evasive kills since its reliable. I run 2 Teeg, 3 Revoker, 2 Sanctum Prelate in my 75. Unlike Thalia, Revoker is useful against a much wider range of decks, prelate actually stops many more lists, and teeg is much more impactful in the elves matchup overall. For evasion I run 1 scryb, 1 birds of paradise, and KotR searching for marit lage. That means I have potential 10 evasion creatures not counting mother of runes.

Evasion means my jittes/Sofies actually hit, or I kill them outright with knight. If you run Orim's chant over thoughtseize the matchup would be close to a sure thing as now they can neither lean on Glimpse or Natural Order. Your bears hurt them, you'd have countermagic, and hoping they forget to bounce after blocks no longer becomes your plan A.

[lavafrogg]

In my experience, Teeg into Jitte does nothing but you watching elves draw cards. Many running needle, null rod, and masses of abrupt decays. Jitte only wins you the game if elves draws nothing.

Its more important to have evasive kills since its reliable. I run 2 Teeg, 3 Revoker, 2 Sanctum Prelate in my 75. Unlike Thalia, Revoker is useful against a much wider range of decks, prelate actually stops many more lists, and teeg is much more impactful in the elves matchup overall. For evasion I run 1 scryb, 1 birds of paradise, and KotR searching for marit lage. That means I have potential 10 evasion creatures not counting mother of runes.

Evasion means my jittes/Sofies actually hit, or I kill them outright with knight. If you run Orim's chant over thoughtseize the matchup would be close to a sure thing as now they can neither lean on Glimpse or Natural Order. Your bears hurt them, you'd have countermagic, and hoping they forget to bounce after blocks no longer becomes your plan A.

To clarify.

1) They have to stop jitte 100% of the time of they lose.

2) They usually only have answers to jitte in the sideboard.

Therefore game one, jitte is your best answer to elves.

after that.

1) You run 2 teeg, 3 revoker, 2 prelate to stop them from comboing on your face.

2) After you stop them from winning you run multiple ways to kill them, either, jittes(see point 1 above)

Therefore running dark depths is win more as you already have evasion(scryb/birds/mom/GSZ) and equipment to kill them.

In addition:

Countermagic? Are you considering Orim's Chant countermagic? Are you holding up WW in the early turns of the game?
Orim's Chant has been shown to be ineffective in years of testing, this is why you don't see very many Orim's Chants around. It is a cool idea but if you chant them once, they can just attack you the next turn, or even kill you if they run Shaman of the Pack. Thoughtsieze is miles and away a better card against combo.

You bash teeg and jitte in your first section and then say you play them/they are good in later points so I am not sure if I should tell you other hate bears you could play that are better against elves, or argue that they are good and worth spots in the main deck. Here is a list of things that we can play against elves in the order of importance, please note that this is a quick list and I am speaking in opinion, not fact.

Good
Jitte
SFM for Jitte
Ethersworn Canonist
Sanctum Prelate
Grafdiggers Cage
Containment Priest
Gaddock Teeg
<insert black splash sweeper>
Thalia, Heretic Cathar(this is so low because if you can't clear their board they will untap and do what they want to)
Aven Mindcensor
Phyrexian Revoker
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Orim's Chant
Less Good But Still Have Uses

Please don't assume that I am saying jitte needs them to forget to bounce blockers as my plan A. I do not assume that you are a bad player, why would assume that I am? If you are at a stalemate on the board and you have a jitte that they cannot block or attack into, you are doing just fine. The entire rest of our deck can help us out be it more knights, evasion creatures, more equipment, whatever. We have 4 swords to plowshares and Wirewood Symbiote is pretty much at the top of the list of creatures to send farming.

Finally, I am playing:

4 GSZ + 1 Teeg, 3 Prelates, 3 SFM + 1 Jitte mainboard

and

3 Containment Priest, 3 Enlightened Tutor + 1 Ethersworn Canonist sideboard

just to get even footing with some of these combo decks that are around.

[toletole]

As an elves player I must say that we can play around jitte quite nicely main deck. From Reclamation Sage to Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor to Symbiote+any elf. You will need to establish Mother+beater+jitte and that takes a couple of turns to be active. Also we can tutor for Leovold so the Jitte plan usually works when we are already lost in the position. I think the best way to stop elves from your perspective are combinations of spot removal for the first 2 turns while you deploy some hatebear (canonist+containment) and finish things off with a mass removal (perish, sometimes Engineered Plague can do the trick too but be aware that there are DRS, Sentinel, Birchlore (morph), Symbiotes, Leovold, Ooze and of course Decay).

[TMagpie]

As an elves player I must say that we can play around jitte quite nicely main deck. From Reclamation Sage to Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor to Symbiote+any elf. You will need to establish Mother+beater+jitte and that takes a couple of turns to be active. Also we can tutor for Leovold so the Jitte plan usually works when we are already lost in the position. I think the best way to stop elves from your perspective are combinations of spot removal for the first 2 turns while you deploy some hatebear (canonist+containment) and finish things off with a mass removal (perish, sometimes Engineered Plague can do the trick too but be aware that there are DRS, Sentinel, Birchlore (morph), Symbiotes, Leovold, Ooze and of course Decay).

Agreed. I have seen many D&T players and Junk players just "go for Jitte" and more often than not it leads to them having spent the first 4 turns doing nothing and dying to natural order.

Turn 2 SFM
Turn 3 Jitte
Turn 4 attempt to swing, if you hit you kill up to 2 creatures.

And if you assume you cast Teeg first then you don't kill a creature until turn 5. At which point the Jitte is fairly anemic and elves usually will be about to draw a 1/3 of their deck.

[Thunderknight]

What are some thoughts about Choke? Now that Miracles is gone, I feel that it isn't as powerful from before. Gratned it hits all Delver Decks, but at the same time I would rather run Winter Orb since it doesn't affect us at all with Scryb Ranger.

This is the sideboard that I ran before the ban

3x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Pithing Needle
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Choke

I'm thinking of moving MB Light and Shadow to the board and include Batterskull as its replacement. I'm also thinking about running another Needle to replace Nissa,

[lavafrogg]

As an elves player I must say that we can play around jitte quite nicely main deck. From Reclamation Sage to Quirion Ranger+Dryad Arbor to Symbiote+any elf. You will need to establish Mother+beater+jitte and that takes a couple of turns to be active. Also we can tutor for Leovold so the Jitte plan usually works when we are already lost in the position. I think the best way to stop elves from your perspective are combinations of spot removal for the first 2 turns while you deploy some hatebear (canonist+containment) and finish things off with a mass removal (perish, sometimes Engineered Plague can do the trick too but be aware that there are DRS, Sentinel, Birchlore (morph), Symbiotes, Leovold, Ooze and of course Decay).

Elves is not a good matchup, especially game one.

Our main form of disruption is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and she only effects elves minimally game one.

In most instances, Jitte is the card that gives us the highest probability of winning game one.

Game one, game one, game one.

Game two we get more hate bears that I ranked in a handy table a few posts ago.

So unless we want to remove Thalia for a better disruption card, game one we get jitte and game two we get <insert hatebears>. We can't play most sweeepers and especially not Perish. Zealous Persicution is a good board card if you are okay with taking losses to your manabase against PoP or wastelands, as you have to cut basics.

@TMagPie: unlike you, I didn't say I would play Teeg first. I would pray they drew a slow hand, because a fast hand doesn't matter because we are dead, and SFM for jitte first. In a perfect world turn 1 mom, turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Swords Symbiote + teeg, turn 4 play and equip jitte, swing with mom protection.

Even turn 1 Heirarch, turn 2 GSZ for Teeg, turn 3 SFM + Mom, turn 4 play and equip jitte, swing with mom protection is turn 4, but you lose the swords to plowshares option but also about as good as you can hope for.

If you want better options you have to cut Thalia for a better hatebear, or play more hatebears mainboard to have more relevant cards against elves. I have been pushing the use of Sanctum Prelate as the card is viable against most decks even elves.

Turn 2 teeg, turn 3 Prelate on 1 cuts out all combo options... as does turn 2 Prelate on 1 turn 3 teeg.(sprinkling in GSZ and Noble Heirarch where needed) From that point knights + equipment can just clog up the board and take over against their 1/1 and 2/2 team.

[ironclad8690]

Finished my league with maverick:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW4PSaRHVCzDbbnPL4F1hrqc

I then played another league without recording it, because recording/comrpessing/uploading the videos is actually quite time-intensive. I finished 3-2 in the non-recorded league.

I think the main things I have learned (at least as far as the MTGO meta is concerned):

1) Vial is still quite good. People can play around stuff on board pretty easily, but they can't always play around what you may have in your hand, or if they do it will at least be harder than playing around on-board tricks. This mainly applies to combo matchups, especially sneak and show.

2) Punishing Fire isn't where you want to be right now. It is too much of a liability with so many spell based combo decks in the format. If you do play it, you have to play at least 3 Thalia to stand a chance against the spell-based combo decks.

3) Black splash is mandatory. If you don't have discard, it will be much easier for the combo decks to beat you, and they are a-plenty right now.

Before I record any more videos, I am going to try to get my chops up with the deck again. I feel as though I have made a bunch of mistakes in these videos, and I have thrown away a couple of matches due to rust with the deck. I think I will record more matches once I feel like I am not making stupid mistakes, because no one wants to watch someone fumble their way through leagues.

[lavafrogg]

Finished my league with maverick:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW4PSaRHVCzDbbnPL4F1hrqc

I then played another league without recording it, because recording/comrpessing/uploading the videos is actually quite time-intensive. I finished 3-2 in the non-recorded league.

I think the main things I have learned (at least as far as the MTGO meta is concerned):

1) Vial is still quite good. People can play around stuff on board pretty easily, but they can't always play around what you may have in your hand, or if they do it will at least be harder than playing around on-board tricks. This mainly applies to combo matchups, especially sneak and show.

2) Punishing Fire isn't where you want to be right now. It is too much of a liability with so many spell based combo decks in the format. If you do play it, you have to play at least 3 Thalia to stand a chance against the spell-based combo decks.

3) Black splash is mandatory. If you don't have discard, it will be much easier for the combo decks to beat you, and they are a-plenty right now.

Before I record any more videos, I am going to try to get my chops up with the deck again. I feel as though I have made a bunch of mistakes in these videos, and I have thrown away a couple of matches due to rust with the deck. I think I will record more matches once I feel like I am not making stupid mistakes, because no one wants to watch someone fumble their way through leagues.

I watched your videos and punishing fires seemed like a liability atm.

Would you consider 4 Vial 4 Heirarch 4 Recruiter?

You could run main board bullet hate bears much easier.

[ironclad8690]

Yes, I have considered this. I will try to test it in the coming weeks. For now I think I am going to try to find the best build of Recruiterless Vial for the current metagame.

[Luthiereisfun]

Dropped out of the lotus event.

it was quite interesting seeing what people were playing. Decent amount of fair/combo decks. Not much control aside stoneblade but they all play out much more like midrange decks with some permission. Not a ton of BUG Leo either. There was some though.

This was my first irl sanctioned event in 6+ Months (I have friends I test with competitively to try and stay sharp) and I really liked Maverick and would run it again in the event. I had 2 very close matches that one I chalk up to variance (he top decked 2x TNN after I wiped his board with ZP) and one I made an incorrect line.

I have 2 flex slot in my list (very close to the Neeley list)

I was between 2x abrupt decay, dark depths combo, 2x Thalia 2.0, and 2x Aven Mindcensor.

I ended up on Mindcensor for a couple of reasons. I didn't want abrupt decay because I didn't want any MD black cards. It would make fetching basics G1 easier and with CB gone I don't see it as necessary. Still a fine choice.

Darkdepths is another flavor to add that can let you race and add an extra angle of attack. I have had too many times where it was clunky and I don't think it lets you race combo fast enough.

Thalia 2.0 is great against fair creature decks, good against elves and at least has impact on combo decks fetches and can slow them down. However against SnS, Reanimator and Storm it's not that good imo. It's also bad vs karakas. The 2 toughness is nice against -1/-1 effects and it certainly carries equipment well. I felt like I didn't need more percentage points against fair decks and needed something more relevant vs other combo then elves.

IMO abrupt decay, dark depths, new Thalia are all fine choices if the rest of the deck is built correctly.

However I chose Mindcensor because it's good against Elves making GSZ/NO awkward and you can flash it in so you can more or less make them "waste" it. I talked about this with Menloe previously but it also hits entomb/infernal tutor/intuition/gamble/crop rotation/stoneforge mystic/recruiter of the guard/eye of ugin/fetches etc.. what was important to me was that my flex slot would be relevant against many MU and more so against our bad ones.

All in all Mindcensor was a house. Most people did not expect it at all. Not only was it good against the reanimator player I played against but was also very good against the new stoneblade decks. It practically blanks SFM and carries equipment across TNN like a champ. The flying was extremely relevant in carrying equipment across stalled board states.

There were some MU where I sided it out, but overall it definitely put its paces in. I reallly liked it. If -1/1 effects become more prevelant Mindcensor definitely takes a hit. I'd say the same if the meta goes more fair that there are better grinding options (except against TNN stoneblade).

[lavafrogg]

Dropped out of the lotus event.

it was quite interesting seeing what people were playing. Decent amount of fair/combo decks. Not much control aside stoneblade but they all play out much more like midrange decks with some permission. Not a ton of BUG Leo either. There was some though.

This was my first irl sanctioned event in 6+ Months (I have friends I test with competitively to try and stay sharp) and I really liked Maverick and would run it again in the event. I had 2 very close matches that one I chalk up to variance (he top decked 2x TNN after I wiped his board with ZP) and one I made an incorrect line.

I have 2 flex slot in my list (very close to the Neeley list)

I was between 2x abrupt decay, dark depths combo, 2x Thalia 2.0, and 2x Aven Mindcensor.

I ended up on Mindcensor for a couple of reasons. I didn't want abrupt decay because I didn't want any MD black cards. It would make fetching basics G1 easier and with CB gone I don't see it as necessary. Still a fine choice.

Darkdepths is another flavor to add that can let you race and add an extra angle of attack. I have had too many times where it was clunky and I don't think it lets you race combo fast enough.

Thalia 2.0 is great against fair creature decks, good against elves and at least has impact on combo decks fetches and can slow them down. However against SnS, Reanimator and Storm it's not that good imo. It's also bad vs karakas. The 2 toughness is nice against -1/-1 effects and it certainly carries equipment well. I felt like I didn't need more percentage points against fair decks and needed something more relevant vs other combo then elves.

IMO abrupt decay, dark depths, new Thalia are all fine choices if the rest of the deck is built correctly.

However I chose Mindcensor because it's good against Elves making GSZ/NO awkward and you can flash it in so you can more or less make them "waste" it. I talked about this with Menloe previously but it also hits entomb/infernal tutor/intuition/gamble/crop rotation/stoneforge mystic/recruiter of the guard/eye of ugin/fetches etc.. what was important to me was that my flex slot would be relevant against many MU and more so against our bad ones.

All in all Mindcensor was a house. Most people did not expect it at all. Not only was it good against the reanimator player I played against but was also very good against the new stoneblade decks. It practically blanks SFM and carries equipment across TNN like a champ. The flying was extremely relevant in carrying equipment across stalled board states.

There were some MU where I sided it out, but overall it definitely put its paces in. I reallly liked it. If -1/1 effects become more prevelant Mindcensor definitely takes a hit. I'd say the same if the meta goes more fair that there are better grinding options (except against TNN stoneblade).

I love the explanations, could you tell us the matchups you faced and what the outcome was?

I don't want to sound like a broken record but play Sanctum Prelate. The card is really good.

Aven Mindcensor is a good card but it is painfully obvious when telegraphed and I do not remember who said it but the quote is something like "Mindcensor is like the white stifle, everyone remembers the blowouts, but people forget when he just sat in their hands and did nothing".

Prelate is proactive, valid in every matchup(especially our worst), and absolutely auto wins in quite a few match ups.

In addition, new list that I went 4-0 with today. Beat Dragon Stompy, Nic Fit, Delver and Sneak and Show.

Stompy(2-0)
I play basics and answers to chalice of the void that they cant lock out. Mirran Crusader + Equipment happened game one and Mom + Dudes happened game 2.

Nic Fit(2-0)
In a case of bad luck, Mirran Crusader was the latest addition to my main deck, with the goal of Voltron-ing the Knight up. I was able to keep him from doing much of anything with Thalia, Prelate and Mom until an active Crusader came in to clean up. Prelate named 2 and 3 in this matchup for his sweepers and abrupt decays.

Grixis Delver(2-0)
Game one they had no answer for a Sword of Fire and Ice as bolt was their only removal and game 2 Knight of the Reliquary came in big and chained wastelands to keep them off of anything relevant. Prelate on 1 was played game 2 to stop Pyromancer spam.

Sneak and Show(2-0)
Game one was mostly luck as he wound up screwing himself with by Forcing a Thalia and a Prelate early and never recovering from the card disadvantage. Game two was pretty back and forth but I always felt ahead with Prelate/Thalia/Teeg/Tutor/Canonist/Oblivion Ring/Choke/Karakas, really just got lucky here.

Current List:

Noble Prelate Maverick

Creatures(26)
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands(23)
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard(15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
3 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgement

[Luthiereisfun]

I love the explanations, could you tell us the matchups you faced and what the outcome was?

I don't want to sound like a broken record but play Sanctum Prelate. The card is really good.

Aven Mindcensor is a good card but it is painfully obvious when telegraphed and I do not remember who said it but the quote is something like "Mindcensor is like the white stifle, everyone remembers the blowouts, but people forget when he just sat in their hands and did nothing".

Prelate is proactive, valid in every matchup(especially our worst), and absolutely auto wins in quite a few match ups.

In addition, new list that I went 4-0 with today. Beat Dragon Stompy, Nic Fit, Delver and Sneak and Show.

Stompy(2-0)
I play basics and answers to chalice of the void that they cant lock out. Mirran Crusader + Equipment happened game one and Mom + Dudes happened game 2.

Nic Fit(2-0)
In a case of bad luck, Mirran Crusader was the latest addition to my main deck, with the goal of Voltron-ing the Knight up. I was able to keep him from doing much of anything with Thalia, Prelate and Mom until an active Crusader came in to clean up. Prelate named 2 and 3 in this matchup for his sweepers and abrupt decays.

Grixis Delver(2-0)
Game one they had no answer for a Sword of Fire and Ice as bolt was their only removal and game 2 Knight of the Reliquary came in big and chained wastelands to keep them off of anything relevant. Prelate on 1 was played game 2 to stop Pyromancer spam.

Sneak and Show(2-0)
Game one was mostly luck as he wound up screwing himself with by Forcing a Thalia and a Prelate early and never recovering from the card disadvantage. Game two was pretty back and forth but I always felt ahead with Prelate/Thalia/Teeg/Tutor/Canonist/Oblivion Ring/Choke/Karakas, really just got lucky here.

Current List:

Noble Prelate Maverick

Creatures(26)
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands(23)
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard(15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
3 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgement

Regarding Aven Mindcensor. For now I'm definitely seeing it as a meta call. It definitely caught people by surprise and no one suspected it. I would say the one advantage to it though is that it's a static ability. Obviously you can screw people over by flashing it in which I did a few times but a lot of times I played it at their endstep and once it's resolved there is no playing around it. It's like a hatebear where it's just an annoying creature and to get around it they have to kill him.

I faced 2 DnT which felt like very easy matches. Sword of Light and Shadow is a house in that matchup and qasali Pridemage blows up any scary equipment. Not too much to say there.

I played cloudpost. He got me in G3. I had a slow hand but it had wasteland and knight (to hopefully get more wasteland) but he turned 1 pithing needled....wasteland. Did not prepare for this MU.

I played BR reanimator which there seemed to be quite a few of at the event. I got it in G3 off the back of DRS and Mindcensor.

I played against RUG delver. It was funny. Our fist game my opening hand was plains, karakas, Thalia, stoneforge mystic, sword of light and shadow, Aven Mindcensor. Between maybe 8 turns I don't draw anymore lands and I draw green spells or 3 drops. All he sees is plains, karakas, sfm and a few Thalia's I tried to jam. Bricking on lands was rough but he thinks I'm on DnT. G2 I drop bayou DRS into T2 Prelate on 1. It just goes south from there and he sideboards correctly. At this point I was 2-1 in matches and really excited to get a good MU for round 4 but a little tilted from bricking on lands G1 (it happens, this is magic not chess). I haven't played against RUG in a while and since it's a good MU I did not respect the deck nearly as much as I should have. We get to a board state where he can kill me in 2 turns and off the top of my deck with library I see KOTR and some lands. I misplay by not grabbing one of the lands so I can play around daze and drop KOTR to block the turn he would kill me. I didn't respect his permission enough and should have thought the line through more.

I went to G3 against Dark Bant blade. There were quite a few variants of this deck running around. I know one topped 8. In this game my mana has been hit hard by his wastelands but Scryb ranger helps me out. I zealous persecution his TNN and Vendillion Clique. I try to get Scryb going with a sword of fire and ice but he finds 2x more tnn and kills me. Very close games. Aven Mindcensor was a house in this MU.

I had one Prelate in my SB and I really liked it. Could definitely see bumping up to 2 or 3 and possible MD. I think it depends on your meta and what you want to be shutting down.

I do still see the main problem Maverick has with combo is being on the draw. Against BR reanimator, G2 my hand had a GSZ/Thalia/wasteland/windswept Heath/sanctum prelate/Containment Priest. A hand like that is nuts. There are so many good cards in it. You can go T2 Prelate, T2 Thalia Waste, T2 C Priest. Just so good. So T1 I GSZ for dryad arbor. He then on his T2 is able to reanimate Griselbrand and Sire of Insanity. I realize that is the nature of BR reanimator to have nuts hands that go off T1 or T2 but I realized that on the play I probably would have won that game. And that's the problem I'm having with Maverick is that some of these combo decks are very hard to win G1 especially when you're going in blind and your hand of DRS/SFM/STP/KOTR/3x lands seem sweet but then you're playing the storm guy and get wrecked. G2 you win but then G3 on the draw you get an excellent hand but they go off T2 and kill you anyways.

I know it does not always go this way. I know our deck can be very capable of winning matches against combo. I know that every deck has its limitations but I would love to try and figure out a way to get more meaningful T1 interaction against these decks.

[TMagpie]

Elves is not a good matchup, especially game one.

Our main form of disruption is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and she only effects elves minimally game one.

In most instances, Jitte is the card that gives us the highest probability of winning game one.

Game one, game one, game one.

Game two we get more hate bears that I ranked in a handy table a few posts ago.

So unless we want to remove Thalia for a better disruption card, game one we get jitte and game two we get <insert hatebears>. We can't play most sweeepers and especially not Perish. Zealous Persicution is a good board card if you are okay with taking losses to your manabase against PoP or wastelands, as you have to cut basics.

@TMagPie: unlike you, I didn't say I would play Teeg first. I would pray they drew a slow hand, because a fast hand doesn't matter because we are dead, and SFM for jitte first. In a perfect world turn 1 mom, turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Swords Symbiote + teeg, turn 4 play and equip jitte, swing with mom protection.

Even turn 1 Heirarch, turn 2 GSZ for Teeg, turn 3 SFM + Mom, turn 4 play and equip jitte, swing with mom protection is turn 4, but you lose the swords to plowshares option but also about as good as you can hope for.

If you want better options you have to cut Thalia for a better hatebear, or play more hatebears mainboard to have more relevant cards against elves. I have been pushing the use of Sanctum Prelate as the card is viable against most decks even elves.

Turn 2 teeg, turn 3 Prelate on 1 cuts out all combo options... as does turn 2 Prelate on 1 turn 3 teeg.(sprinkling in GSZ and Noble Heirarch where needed) From that point knights + equipment can just clog up the board and take over against their 1/1 and 2/2 team.

For reference, the ideal for me is

Turn 1 Mana dork
Turn 2 Knight
Turn 3 green Suns Zenith for Teeg + plow
Turn 4 make a 20/20 + other spells
Turn 5 win the game

The option

Turn 1 mana dork
Turn 2 Zenith for Teeg
Turn 3 SFM + Mom
Turn 4 Cast and equip Jitte, kill 2 creatures
Turn 5 kill two creatures assuming they didn't GSZ for Rec Sage

Both disrupt as fast. It's not about speed or efficiency more that, because Knight in my list is also an evasive creature--it means that decks like Elves, Goblins, etc... which can overwhelm the board can't just block Knight into oblivion.

I can actually employ both strategies in my list, for example. I run 4 SFM and 4 KotR. Both lines of play are available to my deck. And with the loss of miracles I actually have room for more hate for the matchup.

[lavafrogg]

Regarding Aven Mindcensor. For now I'm definitely seeing it as a meta call. It definitely caught people by surprise and no one suspected it. I would say the one advantage to it though is that it's a static ability. Obviously you can screw people over by flashing it in which I did a few times but a lot of times I played it at their endstep and once it's resolved there is no playing around it. It's like a hatebear where it's just an annoying creature and to get around it they have to kill him.

I faced 2 DnT which felt like very easy matches. Sword of Light and Shadow is a house in that matchup and qasali Pridemage blows up any scary equipment. Not too much to say there.

I played cloudpost. He got me in G3. I had a slow hand but it had wasteland and knight (to hopefully get more wasteland) but he turned 1 pithing needled....wasteland. Did not prepare for this MU.

I played BR reanimator which there seemed to be quite a few of at the event. I got it in G3 off the back of DRS and Mindcensor.

I played against RUG delver. It was funny. Our fist game my opening hand was plains, karakas, Thalia, stoneforge mystic, sword of light and shadow, Aven Mindcensor. Between maybe 8 turns I don't draw anymore lands and I draw green spells or 3 drops. All he sees is plains, karakas, sfm and a few Thalia's I tried to jam. Bricking on lands was rough but he thinks I'm on DnT. G2 I drop bayou DRS into T2 Prelate on 1. It just goes south from there and he sideboards correctly. At this point I was 2-1 in matches and really excited to get a good MU for round 4 but a little tilted from bricking on lands G1 (it happens, this is magic not chess). I haven't played against RUG in a while and since it's a good MU I did not respect the deck nearly as much as I should have. We get to a board state where he can kill me in 2 turns and off the top of my deck with library I see KOTR and some lands. I misplay by not grabbing one of the lands so I can play around daze and drop KOTR to block the turn he would kill me. I didn't respect his permission enough and should have thought the line through more.

I went to G3 against Dark Bant blade. There were quite a few variants of this deck running around. I know one topped 8. In this game my mana has been hit hard by his wastelands but Scryb ranger helps me out. I zealous persecution his TNN and Vendillion Clique. I try to get Scryb going with a sword of fire and ice but he finds 2x more tnn and kills me. Very close games. Aven Mindcensor was a house in this MU.

I had one Prelate in my SB and I really liked it. Could definitely see bumping up to 2 or 3 and possible MD. I think it depends on your meta and what you want to be shutting down.

I do still see the main problem Maverick has with combo is being on the draw. Against BR reanimator, G2 my hand had a GSZ/Thalia/wasteland/windswept Heath/sanctum prelate/Containment Priest. A hand like that is nuts. There are so many good cards in it. You can go T2 Prelate, T2 Thalia Waste, T2 C Priest. Just so good. So T1 I GSZ for dryad arbor. He then on his T2 is able to reanimate Griselbrand and Sire of Insanity. I realize that is the nature of BR reanimator to have nuts hands that go off T1 or T2 but I realized that on the play I probably would have won that game. And that's the problem I'm having with Maverick is that some of these combo decks are very hard to win G1 especially when you're going in blind and your hand of DRS/SFM/STP/KOTR/3x lands seem sweet but then you're playing the storm guy and get wrecked. G2 you win but then G3 on the draw you get an excellent hand but they go off T2 and kill you anyways.

I know it does not always go this way. I know our deck can be very capable of winning matches against combo. I know that every deck has its limitations but I would love to try and figure out a way to get more meaningful T1 interaction against these decks.

There really is no turn 1 interaction that you want to play in GW Hatebears. You can sideboard Faerie Macabre/Surgical Extraction for reanimator or Mondbreak Trap against fast combo, but I like the sideboard spots to try and beat the slower T2-4 combo decks.

Our best hope is to build a deck that can steal games from combo occasionally and beat the living shit out of the Delver and Stoneblade decks that wreck the combo decks. If the meta never shifts and pushes combo down, then we are in trouble and can either switch to Delver.dec or combo ourselves. Personally, I would start splashing blue for spell pierce and Vendillion clique, but that doesn't actually fix the turn 0-1 problem.

Against Delver+Bant you had mana issues, what is your land count/how many basics do you play?

Against cloudpost, they always bring in Needle(or just mainboard a few) for Wasteland, you just need a few more games against them. That is also a random tier 3 deck that we line up with awkwardly Knight + Wasteland or Something + Equipment is the best answer as they really just derp until they start dropping monsters. Wasteland pretty much destroys them as they were a deck that preyed on Miracles.

Would you mind posting your list?

@TMagPie You still don't stop them from glimpsing on you which is the faster, less consistent kill.

In your option 2 they can't GSZ because you played Teeg.

Neither of the non-Prelate game one options stop them from killing you. When you are valuing jitte over all else you have a chance to just naturally draw and play it to win the game. If you want to bet elves every game, play more jittes and splash red for sudden demise. Knight is not a Elves killer, I can't be more clear.

Turn 2 Prelate turn 3 Teeg, or visa versa, is the only way to lock them out of both options, in which they can still win if they draw exactly what they need.

Knight is not an evasive creature. He does not have evasion of any kind. He fetches a two card combo that makes a 20/20 flying that the opponent either does, or does not have an answer for. It is not a card you want against Elves.

I posted my list a few posts ago, turn 2/3 Prelate and Teeg locks them out of both wins, I also have 3 Mirran Crusaders to just kill them, especially with a Jitte. The win condition is Crusader + Jitte, the interaction are Prelates and Teegs, which is what actually win me the game. The win condition doesn't matter if you have stopped them from comboing.

In your words: "In my experience, Teeg into Jitte does nothing but you watching elves draw cards." So you know and admit that Teeg into Knight doesn't work consistently.

I have said "Elves is not a good matchup, especially game one. Our main form of disruption is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and she only effects elves minimally game one. In most instances, Jitte is the card that gives us the highest probability of winning game one. " This means, that Jitte offers the highest probability of winning game one, more than Knight, more than Teeg.

Here is a list of cards you want, in order:

Good
Jitte
SFM for Jitte
Ethersworn Canonist
Sanctum Prelate
Grafdiggers Cage
Containment Priest
Gaddock Teeg
<insert black splash sweeper>
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Aven Mindcensor
Phyrexian Revoker
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Orim's Chant
Less Good But Still Have Uses

I have offered a solution and a list that I use with success I am not sure what you are trying to contribute to the conversation as you are not very clear in your post. Please clarify any issues or comments you would like to discuss and include a list if you need to.

[Luthiereisfun]

There really is no turn 1 interaction that you want to play in GW Hatebears. You can sideboard Faerie Macabre/Surgical Extraction for reanimator or Mondbreak Trap against fast combo, but I like the sideboard spots to try and beat the slower T2-4 combo decks.

Our best hope is to build a deck that can steal games from combo occasionally and beat the living shit out of the Delver and Stoneblade decks that wreck the combo decks. If the meta never shifts and pushes combo down, then we are in trouble and can either switch to Delver.dec or combo ourselves. Personally, I would start splashing blue for spell pierce and Vendillion clique, but that doesn't actually fix the turn 0-1 problem.

Against Delver+Bant you had mana issues, what is your land count/how many basics do you play?

Against cloudpost, they always bring in Needle(or just mainboard a few) for Wasteland, you just need a few more games against them. That is also a random tier 3 deck that we line up with awkwardly Knight + Wasteland or Something + Equipment is the best answer as they really just derp until they start dropping monsters. Wasteland pretty much destroys them as they were a deck that preyed on Miracles.

Would you mind posting your list?

@TMagPie You still don't stop them from glimpsing on you which is the faster, less consistent kill.

In your option 2 they can't GSZ because you played Teeg.

Neither of the non-Prelate game one options stop them from killing you. When you are valuing jitte over all else you have a chance to just naturally draw and play it to win the game. If you want to bet elves every game, play more jittes and splash red for sudden demise. Knight is not a Elves killer, I can't be more clear.

Turn 2 Prelate turn 3 Teeg, or visa versa, is the only way to lock them out of both options, in which they can still win if they draw exactly what they need.

Knight is not an evasive creature. He does not have evasion of any kind. He fetches a two card combo that makes a 20/20 flying that the opponent either does, or does not have an answer for. It is not a card you want against Elves.

I posted my list a few posts ago, turn 2/3 Prelate and Teeg locks them out of both wins, I also have 3 Mirran Crusaders to just kill them, especially with a Jitte. The win condition is Crusader + Jitte, the interaction are Prelates and Teegs, which is what actually win me the game. The win condition doesn't matter if you have stopped them from comboing.

In your words: "In my experience, Teeg into Jitte does nothing but you watching elves draw cards." So you know and admit that Teeg into Knight doesn't work consistently.

I have said "Elves is not a good matchup, especially game one. Our main form of disruption is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and she only effects elves minimally game one. In most instances, Jitte is the card that gives us the highest probability of winning game one. " This means, that Jitte offers the highest probability of winning game one, more than Knight, more than Teeg.

Here is a list of cards you want, in order:

Good
Jitte
SFM for Jitte
Ethersworn Canonist
Sanctum Prelate
Grafdiggers Cage
Containment Priest
Gaddock Teeg
<insert black splash sweeper>
Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Aven Mindcensor
Phyrexian Revoker
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Orim's Chant
Less Good But Still Have Uses

I have offered a solution and a list that I use with success I am not sure what you are trying to contribute to the conversation as you are not very clear in your post. Please clarify any issues or comments you would like to discuss and include a list if you need to.

Here's my list.

Lands (22)

Creatures
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

Creatures (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stonefogre Mystic
2x Aven Mindcensor

Non-creature Spells (12)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

SB
2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

(I have since taken out Sigarda/1x Ethersworn for 2x more Thoughtseize)

I guess I feel like my fair matchups are already good enough and wanted to hedge against combo. I think we have a fundamental difference in approach. I feel like my deck with the correct lines and play can go toe to toe with almost any fair deck. Personally I rather be 55%(+) - 45% against some fair decks and have a better chance against the combo decks. That line of thought also was due to a meta call and I expected to run into more combo. I am not adverse to making builds that focus more on beating up on the fair MU. That is why I originally had Sigarda in the SB, for BGx and control decks. Sigarda is a house but it felt like overkill and I didn't need her to win matches.

I know you are off the black splash but for now I am going to keep Thoughtseize as my primary turn 1 disruption. It pairs well with Surgical Extraction and when I go g3 against the combo decks on the draw I feel like having that T1 interaction as a possibility can help hedge against them. That said I think we are both in agreement that our hatebears are our best bet and gameplan number 1.

Against RUG Delver g3 he had rough and tumble to kill one of my dryad arbors and DRS. He also had Wastelands and held up blue mana most of the game to stifle one of my later land drops. Personally I felt like I played g3 wrong and I just didn't respect RUG enough.

Against Stoneblade I just didn't draw into a ton of lands and he drew into a lot of his wastelands. That and the fact that I needed to fetch black for my ZP's so fetching basics at certain points would put me in awkward positions.

I felt like the deck performed fine against the fair decks and my losses in G3 to RUG and Stoneblade were due to lines I made vs the deck getting blown out. You live you learn.

Not too worried about Cloudpost since that deck got worse with Miracles gone and it was an already a more fringe archetype.

My thoughts are that Maverick is in a weird place right now. It's "boogeyman" so to speak is gone but there are still a lot of decks out there that can give us a hard time. Which of those decks will be prevalent I am not sure. I think as the meta settles a little more it will be easier for Maverick to have a gameplan going into big events and of what to expect. I know I am being a broken record at this point but it is because of the new unsettled meta that I wanted to try and bring a list that could have game against anything.

On the plus side I got a scrubland as a door prize :tongue:

[Stuart]

I played Maverick at a small GPT this weekend. Here's a report, if you're interested (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31631-Battle-for-Asgard-Maverick-Top-8-at-a-little-GPT&p=1005189#post1005189). In short, the deck feels great and should do well in the hands of players better than me.

[lavafrogg]

I played Maverick at a small GPT this weekend. Here's a report, if you're interested (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31631-Battle-for-Asgard-Maverick-Top-8-at-a-little-GPT&p=1005189#post1005189). In short, the deck feels great and should do well in the hands of players better than me.

Grats on the top 8!

Burn twice in a row is pretty rough.

Would you make any changes or have any ideas for the future? You ran a pretty traditional list overall.

[Stuart]

Cheers Lavafrogg! The maindeck felt solid. I think I'll drop the Batterskull for one of the Swords, but other than that I'll probably run it back as is. As I mentioned in the report, it felt like I was favored vs all the fair decks, and I've got enough combo-hate that I won't be totally dead to unfair decks.

For the sideboard:
- I'm cutting the Melira, which was basically just there to troll one of my teammates. For now I'm replacing it with a Diabolic Edict, which seems like a good flexible option. However, it might also become a 3rd Zealous Persecution, a Sigarda, or the Batterskull I'd dropped from the main. I also desperately want to run Abzan Beastmaster, but I suspect he actually just sucks.
- I think the Bog wants to be a 3rd Surgical. Maybe Maverick pilots who have played the deck for longer appreciate the ability to Knight > Bog, but Bog feels so shitty when you draw it. Surgical, meanwhile, is an amazing card, but I never drew either of my 2 copies.

[lavafrogg]

Here's my list.

Lands (22)

Creatures
4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland

Creatures (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stonefogre Mystic
2x Aven Mindcensor

Non-creature Spells (12)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

SB
2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

(I have since taken out Sigarda/1x Ethersworn for 2x more Thoughtseize)

I guess I feel like my fair matchups are already good enough and wanted to hedge against combo. I think we have a fundamental difference in approach. I feel like my deck with the correct lines and play can go toe to toe with almost any fair deck. Personally I rather be 55%(+) - 45% against some fair decks and have a better chance against the combo decks. That line of thought also was due to a meta call and I expected to run into more combo. I am not adverse to making builds that focus more on beating up on the fair MU. That is why I originally had Sigarda in the SB, for BGx and control decks. Sigarda is a house but it felt like overkill and I didn't need her to win matches.

I know you are off the black splash but for now I am going to keep Thoughtseize as my primary turn 1 disruption. It pairs well with Surgical Extraction and when I go g3 against the combo decks on the draw I feel like having that T1 interaction as a possibility can help hedge against them. That said I think we are both in agreement that our hatebears are our best bet and gameplan number 1.

Against RUG Delver g3 he had rough and tumble to kill one of my dryad arbors and DRS. He also had Wastelands and held up blue mana most of the game to stifle one of my later land drops. Personally I felt like I played g3 wrong and I just didn't respect RUG enough.

Against Stoneblade I just didn't draw into a ton of lands and he drew into a lot of his wastelands. That and the fact that I needed to fetch black for my ZP's so fetching basics at certain points would put me in awkward positions.

I felt like the deck performed fine against the fair decks and my losses in G3 to RUG and Stoneblade were due to lines I made vs the deck getting blown out. You live you learn.

Not too worried about Cloudpost since that deck got worse with Miracles gone and it was an already a more fringe archetype.

My thoughts are that Maverick is in a weird place right now. It's "boogeyman" so to speak is gone but there are still a lot of decks out there that can give us a hard time. Which of those decks will be prevalent I am not sure. I think as the meta settles a little more it will be easier for Maverick to have a gameplan going into big events and of what to expect. I know I am being a broken record at this point but it is because of the new unsettled meta that I wanted to try and bring a list that could have game against anything.

On the plus side I got a scrubland as a door prize :tongue:

Who wins a dual land as a door prize?!?

I spent a lot of time playing Junk with Zeniths and have little faith in the black disruption plan, that being said I ran thoughtsieze into hymn into teeg essentially, I found that if they are going to beat you turn 1, they can beat you through a thoughtsieze.

Zealous Persicution is really the only black card that I really miss from the splash as white has no good options with the same effect. The black splash also hurts multiple Sanctum Prelates as the mana base would struggle to get GWWB consistently and still get basics.

[TMagpie]

Who wins a dual land as a door prize?!?

I spent a lot of time playing Junk with Zeniths and have little faith in the black disruption plan, that being said I ran thoughtsieze into hymn into teeg essentially, I found that if they are going to beat you turn 1, they can beat you through a thoughtsieze.

Zealous Persicution is really the only black card that I really miss from the splash as white has no good options with the same effect. The black splash also hurts multiple Sanctum Prelates as the mana base would struggle to get GWWB consistently and still get basics.

My sideboard started with 4 Prelates.

Ten black splash forced me to trim it down to 2...

I definitely know your pain.

[lavafrogg]

My sideboard started with 4 Prelates.

The black splash forced me to trim it down to 2...

I definitely know your pain.

I have always found Maverick to have a surprisingly sketchy mana base, hence why the Punishing builds used to play a mainboard life from the loam to help stabilize against mana disruption. Pushing into black for reactive cards like removal doesn't sound like a good plan to me, especially when removal is best against decks that pack wasteland(delver, bant). The black splash is best against decks that cannot punish your manabase such as Miracles, RIP, and combo.

The instances where Thoughtsieze is worth it are surprisingly slim. I mean this by saying that if the combo player does not have the turn 1/0 kill, a relevant hate bear is a better card to have due to the lasting effect and clock provided. In addition, one discard spell is often not enough to delay them more than a turn. Consistent turn 0/1 decks do not really exist in this format, the BR Reanimator deck most likely being the best one, I am fine with forcing them to go off before something bad happens, like a turn 2 RiP/Canonist/Thalia/Teeg/Prelate, that stops them from winning. Once again, we are not playing a blue deck that can stop early combo on a regular basis.

I have died countless games with Junk/Rock with discard and bears in my hand, but I have also dropped a turn 2 Thalia that they couldn't beat more often than not. I also play Enlightened Tutor sideboard so I pretty much always have the turn 2 hate card.... which helps

[menloe]

Hey guys, concluded my Punishing Maverick league:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW6sRcFveDY2wYN94ULaak4A

And started a league with a standard GWb Zenith list.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOaIHi8nuWW4PSaRHVCzDbbnPL4F1hrqc

Let me know if you think I should have played any differently in any of the matches, or if you have any feedback in general.

3 Burn match ups is just the worst luck ever. Thanks for posting these.

[lavafrogg]

It looks like the first glimpse of the new meta is in:

Grixis Delver
Show and Tell
Elves

Appear to be the clear cut tier one decks.

Food Chain/BUG Combo/Leovold
Storm
Stoneblade
Dragon Stompy

Are all having a strong tier 2 showing

Death and Taxes has seem to taken a hit wih all of the Elves hate, eldrazi is nowhere to be seen, infect is also AFK but could make a comeback as a very fast "Delver" deck.

How does everyone feel about these matchups?

[Luthiereisfun]

It looks like the first glimpse of the new meta is in:

Grixis Delver
Show and Tell
Elves

Appear to be the clear cut tier one decks.

Food Chain/BUG Combo/Leovold
Storm
Stoneblade
Dragon Stompy

Are all having a strong tier 2 showing

Death and Taxes has seem to taken a hit wih all of the Elves hate, eldrazi is nowhere to be seen, infect is also AFK but could make a comeback as a very fast "Delver" deck.

How does everyone feel about these matchups?

Show and Tell feels very weird to me...if they go heavy in on Omni I think it's bad...if they don't I think it's pretty good. Prelate seems to be the best answer to show and tell altogether. All the tier 2 decks seem fine for the most part. Grixis Delver seems fine. Elves I am pretty outspoken about not liking but I think it's winnable. Decks like infect seem more miserable to me.

edit: mtggoldfish says that 70% of SnS decks play 3x Omni...feels bad man

[lavafrogg]

Show and Tell feels very weird to me...if they go heavy in on Omni I think it's bad...if they don't I think it's pretty good. Prelate seems to be the best answer to show and tell altogether. All the tier 2 decks seem fine for the most part. Grixis Delver seems fine. Elves I am pretty outspoken about not liking but I think it's winnable. Decks like infect seem more miserable to me.

edit: mtggoldfish says that 70% of SnS decks play 3x Omni...feels bad man

The newer lists seem to be dropping Omni, but playing the set of petals to speed up:/

[lavafrogg]

The newer lists seem to be dropping Omni, but playing the set of petals to speed up:/

Edit: Another Top 8 posted:

// NAME : Maverick
// CREATOR : Jakob Patterson
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [R] Savannah
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [C14] Sylvan Safekeeper
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [] Renegade Rallier
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 2 [CMD] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize

[Skizz]

hey Guys,

i had a great weekend at MKM Frankfurt with my beloved GW/b list
sigarda and Thalia 2.0 are nuts, as i told you many times :wink:

went 6:1 at the legacy trial on saturday and finished 6th out of 114
went 7:3 at the main event on sunday 55th out of 437 people.

i will write about it in the next 2 days...:smile:

[Climax]

Hi everbody.

This is my first post in this thread but surely not the last one.

A few weeks ago I decided to start playing Punishing Maverick.
The reasons were pretty simple:

1. I wanted to play a deck that is fun to play for a long time. Four different toolboxes in the same deck allow that.
2. It should be upgradeable
3. We at least have some game against each deck.
4. No blue duals are needed. Therefore the price was manageable.

Two small FNMs were strengthening my decision.

Now the fun part:
Last weekend I played the MKM series tournament in Frankfurt.
And i had a blast.

Following 75 have been used:


//Lands
1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

//Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Safekeeper

//Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Weapons
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Worship


Theese were my results:

1st trial:
4-3 (no particular order)

Loam W
Deadguy W
Esperblade L
Bantblade W
TurboDepths L
Grixis Delver L
Shardless Leovold W

2nd Trial:
5-2
GWb Maverick W (i guess Skizz)
DnT L
BigRed W
Imperial Taxes W
4 Color Delver L
4 Color Delver W
Infect W

Mainevent:
6-3-1 (no particular order)
Bye W
Deathblade L
SpiralTide L
UWR Blade D
Grixis Delver L
UB Reanimator W
Canadian Delver W
DnT W
FoodChain W
UR Control W


Most of my losses were due to mistakes on my side (really bad mulligan decisions, bad plays...) or strange things (Price of Progress for 16dmg out of 4C Delver)
Just a few of the lost games felt out of my control: Esperblade and SpiralTide.

The most important part: I hadn't that much fun playing Magic for decades. The deck is an absolute blast to play.
I had now two days to think about my results and the deck:
The maindeck was solid. There is not a single card that I would change at the moment.
But the sideboard was not that satisfying. Therefore and due to Ironclads videos I decided to try Worldly Tutor next.

Some hatebears that came to my mind so far:

Containment priest
Orzhoff Pontiff
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker
Gaddock Teeg
Cunning Sparkmage
Harsh Mentor
Phyrexian Metamorph


Any ideas?

[menloe]

Quick poll. What equipment package is everyone running these days? I'm building into GWb Maverick from Punishing and have Jitte, Batterskull, and an open trade window in MTGO with Sword of Fire and Ice selected. What else?

[Megadeus]

Quick poll. What equipment package is everyone running these days? I'm building into GWb Maverick from Punishing and have Jitte, Batterskull, and an open trade window in MTGO with Sword of Fire and Ice selected. What else?

Light and Shadow is worth having in your arsenal as well

[Luthiereisfun]

Quick poll. What equipment package is everyone running these days? I'm building into GWb Maverick from Punishing and have Jitte, Batterskull, and an open trade window in MTGO with Sword of Fire and Ice selected. What else?

I run jitte/sword of fire and ice/sword of light and shadow. Fire and Ice imo is one of the best. If you can connect and kill one of their creatures you just net 2 cards for your 1 and that will just keep going up the longer it stays. It's also a serious clock and helps you race TNN. Sword of Light and Shadow was better when Miracles was around imo but I think it's still very solid. Against BUG it lets you swing past baleful strix/Leovold/DRS get creatures back they most likely killed and helps race. Also good against stoneblade decks. Most stoneblade decks run STP and SoLaS blanks them. I have also used it with a Scryb Ranger to play offense and defense vs batterskull. Overall I just like the swords and jitte because it turns any creature into a threat.

[menloe]

Thanks muchly Megadeus and Luthiereisfun!

[Hanni]

Sword of Feast and Famine was good when Shardless BUG was a bigger portion of the meta.

[ET1]

After almost a year of playing the dark depths combo in maverick I have hopped on the bandwagon and joined the cradle crowd, at least for now :wink:. With the loss of miracles and the rise of the new legacy meta game I'm beginning to tinker with my list a bit. Last week at my lgs I tried no mb abrupt decay and instead played 3 Pridemage along with a singleton sanctum prelate. I definitely missed having the extra creature removal and am now planning on running this list.

Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Deathrite
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Other
4 STP
4 GSZ
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
3 Zealous Persecution
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Containment Priest

My LGS is running a win a dual for each weekly legacy tournament this month, there is also a legacy GPT this month. Given the lack of miracles I'm feeling fairly well positioned, mainly worried about elves and Sneak N Show, but should be interesting. Also Cradle makes equipment feel much less clunky.

[lavafrogg]

With the first results of the "new" meta coming in it seems that our Delver and Stone-blade friends have not pushed out combo as much as we would have hoped. Time will tell as the format continues to adjust but we might need to start making deck building calls based on the fact that we have a bad matchup against roughly 1/2 the current meta.

Anyone have any ideas/thoughts?

I am currently considering an old school New Horizons style list with 4 mainboard stifles to combat storm and such. My GW Maverick list is still rocking 4 Thalia/3 Sanctum Prelate/Gaddock Teeg main, but I love to think of options available.

[TMagpie]

I run jitte/sword of fire and ice/sword of light and shadow. Fire and Ice imo is one of the best. If you can connect and kill one of their creatures you just net 2 cards for your 1 and that will just keep going up the longer it stays. It's also a serious clock and helps you race TNN. Sword of Light and Shadow was better when Miracles was around imo but I think it's still very solid. Against BUG it lets you swing past baleful strix/Leovold/DRS get creatures back they most likely killed and helps race. Also good against stoneblade decks. Most stoneblade decks run STP and SoLaS blanks them. I have also used it with a Scryb Ranger to play offense and defense vs batterskull. Overall I just like the swords and jitte because it turns any creature into a threat.

Realistically it does not matter which sword you use, so long as it triggers. All of them are busted, so long as you use the one which most guarantees you hit with it.

[lavafrogg]

Realistically it does not matter which sword you use, so long as it triggers. All of them are busted, so long as you use the one which most guarantees you hit with it.

The swords are usually just meta calls. Fire and Ice is the best in a vacuum but if BuG is everywhere, Feast or Famine/Body and Mind are excellent, the same with the W swords against swords to plowshares.

That being said, I am testing cutting the equipment package for now, I don't think they really help in many of our problem matchups except for TNN.dumb.dec where they are really good for racing.

Will update with new list soon.

[TMagpie]

I'm keen to learn what your outs are to the recent trend in Truenames should you cut equipment, Scryb Ranger, and don't run Dark Depths. I'm not even sure there's much point to running cradle without equipment. But I'd really like for this experiment to be fruitful--it would mean a brace new world for sure.

[DoomRabbit]

I'm keen to learn what your outs are to the recent trend in Truenames should you cut equipment, Scryb Ranger, and don't run Dark Depths. I'm not even sure there's much point to running cradle without equipment. But I'd really like for this experiment to be fruitful--it would mean a brace new world for sure.

Zealous persecution! I've always run 2, and they've been great, hit TNN, pyromancers, early mongoose, elves, DnT, empty the warrens, etc.

[pettdan]

With the first results of the "new" meta coming in it seems that our Delver and Stone-blade friends have not pushed out combo as much as we would have hoped. Time will tell as the format continues to adjust but we might need to start making deck building calls based on the fact that we have a bad matchup against roughly 1/2 the current meta.

Anyone have any ideas/thoughts?

I've adjusted my list based on nothing but loose assumptions. With Miracles gone I wanted to increase combo-relevant cards:
Maindeck 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (+1)
Maindeck 1 Gaddock Teeg (+1)
Sideboard 4 Thoughtseize/Duress (+1)

I moved Gaddock Teeg back to the maindeck, a good toolbox creature due to Sneak Attack, Big Red and Elves (pardon the obviousness of this comment). Thalia Heretic Cathar seems also well positioned (based on my assumptions on the meta), but I'll keep on playing Tireless Tracker for a while in that position. It's a card to consider though, like others have argued.

Another card I'm looking out for is Omniscience (through Show and Tell), it if gains traction I think I may need to put a Trinisphere back into my sideboard (with Enlightened Tutor backup) or double Prelates; Prelate on three is great in that matchup, but not being tutorable comes with a cost.

I saw in Julian Knab's article from yesterday that Grixis Delver was doing well at the MKM Frankfurt event, I lost to a new player with the deck yesterday at the LGS weekly legacy event and it's usually not a particularly good matchup for me. I often get problems with Grixis Delver and UR delver/prowess. I would like to figure out what I can do to improve that matchup.. Maybe Prelates are the answer here too. Or Thalia + Choke.

To conclude I will consider to follow your example and try the Sanctum Prelate.

During the last local tournaments post the Top-ban I've went 3-1 and 2-1-1 (the draw would have been won during the 6th turn of time) so I don't feel that off in the meta, what decks representing halft the meta do you have bad matchups vs?


Anyone have any ideas/thoughts?

I am currently considering an old school New Horizons style list with 4 mainboard stifles to combat storm and such. My GW Maverick list is still rocking 4 Thalia/3 Sanctum Prelate/Gaddock Teeg main, but I love to think of options available.

Ideas are plentyful, I've tried Bant Maverick before and didn't spend enough time to get anywhere. With Leovold there is an incentive [edit: to try dark bant maverick], and I was thinking of swapping Decays for Qasalis (going to 4?) and Deathrites for Nobles, then playing a tropical and some amount of Spell Queller. Spell Quellers with Mother backup, multiple exalted triggers and carrying equipment could be something. Also this enables Invasive Surgery, Flusterstorm etc from the board. Just an idea, since you were asking...


I'm keen to learn what your outs are to the recent trend in Truenames should you cut equipment, Scryb Ranger, and don't run Dark Depths. I'm not even sure there's much point to running cradle without equipment. But I'd really like for this experiment to be fruitful--it would mean a brace new world for sure.


Zealous persecution! I've always run 2, and they've been great, hit TNN, pyromancers, early mongoose, elves, DnT, empty the warrens, etc.

I raced a TNN with Jitte on it yesterday with two KotR's, was rather surprise to have made it (the second KotR turned the game around [edit: and an StP on one of the knights bought me an extra attack during which I would have won]). Otherwise the real threat is usually not TNN but rather the equipment, we can usually make 3 lifepoints a turn or race it. So be sure to play plenty of Qasalis. With that said I wouldn't play without equipment...

[TMagpie]

Beating Truenames with equipment is easy--but lavafrogg is testing a zero equipment list, and I know he already doesn't like Scryb. So when BUG toxics the board then drops a Truename how does he plan to beat that?

Without access to either Scryb or a blue sword he is forced to drawing double knight.

If he simply had a blue sword, any dork can race. If he had Jitte instead, he could just search for Scryb to race.

That was more the question.

[pettdan]

Beating Truenames with equipment is easy--but lavafrogg is testing a zero equipment list, and I know he already doesn't like Scryb. So when BUG toxics the board then drops a Truename how does he plan to beat that?

Without access to either Scryb or a blue sword he is forced to drawing double knight.

If he simply had a blue sword, any dork can race. If he had Jitte instead, he could just search for Scryb to race.

That was more the question.

Yes, thanks for clearing that out, but no one suggested using equipment in their answer, right? I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here.

Come to think of it, I have Titania around for winning in such unfavorable positions, that is just the kind of situation I have her for - unfavorable board state, single game-changing card. The green Entreat the Angels.

[TMagpie]

Yes, thanks for clearing that out, but no one suggested using equipment in their answer, right? I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here.

Come to think of it, I have Titania around for winning in such unfavorable positions, that is just the kind of situation I have her for - unfavorable board state, single game-changing card. The green Entreat the Angels.

Misread your answer, I had thought you were saying you beat Truename with 2 knights and a Jitte--which I was of course going "How could you not?"

I find Truename to be very beatable assuming certain truths are around. For example, if I have a big enough board presence. Or if they only have 2 or less true-names, etc...

But often times games are a lot more gray than that. Youre knights are targetted and a dread of night/eplague/toxic clears some amount of your guys. Your pridemage hits their jitte and suddenly its just true-name vs some mana dorks and a random bear/squire. These are usually the more common game states I find Truenames to be in, and where a blue sword is very helpful in ending.

The sword being blue is not necessary--but with the rise of Leovold + 4Truename lists its something that has to be addressed. And going to zero equipment as LavaFrogg is testing even moreso.

[Skizz]

So here’s a little report of MKM Frankfurt, Germany of last weekend:
i think i was the maverick player with the best result?

GW/b
Maindeck:
2 Forrest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaeas Cradle
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scrybranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasal Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Containment Priest
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke

Results:

Trial 6:1

1:2 P.Fire Maverick
2:1 Lands
2:1 Death and Taxes
2:1 Sneak Show
2:0 Death and Taxes
2:0 Aggro Loam
2:0 Chaos Elves

Main Event 7:3

**Bye**
0:2 Elves
2:0 Sneak Show
2:0 Zombardment (B/R Zombies)
2:0 Lands
2:1 Manaless Dredge
1:2 Food Chain
2:1 Esper Control
1:2 RUG Delver
2:1 Blue Aggro Loam

Thoughts:
Maindeck:
The Theme of the Deck is “Hatebears” - so I want as much as I can fit in
First of all I would never bring less than 2 Qasali Pridemages.
Thalia 2.0 has won me several games just because opponents often can’t come clear with her when she hits the board.
if they can handle her… its just a removal less for our knights which im fine with!
At the tournament I heard a lot of laughing when Sigarda hits the board but opponents were just crying... (had her on board at least in 5 games)
SFM+Equipments are nice to have and with Cradle they can immediately put you in a great spot.
but I wouldn’t up the numbers of SFM – im saying it often: I don’t like SFM package but there is nothing else which we can bring in at the same powerlevel.

Sideboard:
All cards were used very well. The only thing I would change is to remove the oblivion ring and replace it with Toxic Deluge
(Thought I would face more Show and Tell Decks these days but we are fine without em) we need more Massremoval for Elves/TNN bullshit!

The whole tournament went very well. Could have won against Food Chain if he hasn’t drawn all the answers for my threads lategame (had him down to 3 life game 3)
Also could have easily won the last game against RUG Delver if I had drawn an answer for either Nemesis or Sulfuric Vortex. (note to myself – keep in at least 1 Pridemage)

I know that I dodged combo/storm but even when I had to play against them the best thing we can do is to slam ~random~ hatebear turn 2.
if they kill us before our turn 2, we have to live with it and theres not much we can do about it.(thoughtseize turn1… wow) No fear!

IMO - Sanctum Prelate is a good card – but I don’t want to play it mainboard, here I see Gaddock Teeg in this role/spot which I like more (GSZ-able)
I don’t want to have 2/2 vanillas for 3 mana without great impact game one, after sideboarding yes maybe upto to 2 when I know what im against.


~Sky is the Limit~
Skizz

[Luthiereisfun]

I used to not be a SFM fan. I have changed my tuned however and I see it now as a very important role in any creature based MU. SFM for me has been great against infect/elves (2 not so hot MU) while also giving an edge against any other stoneblade/DNT/goblins/TNN grindfest.

As TMagpie pointed out the swords/jitte are busted and I seem them also playing a role in the "overload with threats" category

[lavafrogg]

I know that I dodged combo/storm but even when I had to play against them the best thing we can do is to slam ~random~ hatebear turn 2.
if they kill us before our turn 2, we have to live with it and theres not much we can do about it.(thoughtseize turn1… wow) No fear!



This.

Congrats on the tournament and I am glad someone did good with Maverick.

How did you feel against food chain? Walking Basilica looks like a beating on paper, I have yet to play against a Food Chain player live.

[lavafrogg]

I'm keen to learn what your outs are to the recent trend in Truenames should you cut equipment, Scryb Ranger, and don't run Dark Depths. I'm not even sure there's much point to running cradle without equipment. But I'd really like for this experiment to be fruitful--it would mean a brace new world for sure.

Truename isn't really the issue, truename with equipment is the issue. Multiple Pridemages solve that problem nicely.



Beating Truenames with equipment is easy--but lavafrogg is testing a zero equipment list, and I know he already doesn't like Scryb. So when BUG toxics the board then drops a Truename how does he plan to beat that?

Without access to either Scryb or a blue sword he is forced to drawing double knight.

If he simply had a blue sword, any dork can race. If he had Jitte instead, he could just search for Scryb to race.

That was more the question.

My whole argument about Scryb Ranger was before the banning of Miracles, which means it is mostly invalid at this point, but I did state that Scryb Ranger is very good in fair matchups. TNN and Delver are fair matchups, therefore, Scryb Ranger is good. If you check my past few lists you will see that they all have Scryb Ranger.

Also, I am not testing zero equipment, I am testing cutting the equipment package... which is typically 2-3 Stoneforge Mystics and 2-3 Swords/Jitte/Batterskull. I am currently running 3 Jitte, which is much better when drawn naturally especially against all of the fair decks in the format(looking at you DRS).

Stoneforge Mystic is just so slow in most matchups and I know she is a must kill due to her ability(and she is card advantage), but most games Jitte has the versatility to get the job done.

In your scenario with BUG, am I hellbent, are they hellbent, what did they Toxic Deluge away? I am playing multiple Knights and Mirran Crusaders so I could for all reasons just untap and play a Crusader which will race a TNN especially when I am most likely ahead in life. I could very well possibly lose, but so could anyone.

This is the most current list that I have played at an event:

Noble Prelate Maverick

Creatures(26)
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Spells(8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Things(3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands(23)
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard(15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
3 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Council's Judgement

Truename BUG has obvious hate cards in the Sword of Fire and Ice, the Chokes and the Council's Judgement. Things hitting for 3 really just aren't a problem and Mirran Crusader is usually more of an issue for them to deal with than TNN is for us.

Edit: Maverick top 8!

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : Maverick
// CREATOR : Bressan Daniel
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [R] Savannah
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [] Sanctum Prelate
2 [] Scavenging Ooze
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [] Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

Love the multiple Ooze, Pridemage and the 2/2 Prelate main/side split, that card is bonkers.

Does have the black splash for zealous and thoughtsieze with tons of hate in the board.

Sweet list.

[Skizz]

This.

Congrats on the tournament and I am glad someone did good with Maverick.

How did you feel against food chain? Walking Basilica looks like a beating on paper, I have yet to play against a Food Chain player live.

Hey Frogg,
thanks! :)

against food chain i would say:
Swords to Plowshares for their Deathrite Shamans
Knights/Wastelands if they make the mistake to fetch nonbasics / tax with Thalia
use Pridemages and Abrupt Decay only for Food Chain
Sword of Fire and Ice (Jitte in some Way) against their Birds
Needle for Balista!
Canonist is very important and shines here as well if they have Food Chain online.
depends on boardstate but Sanctum Prelate on 2 (to shut off their Abrupt Decays) is great / probably on 3 for Food Chain/Plague
also i have brought in Thoughtseize and Choke.

overall i would say its a 50/50 matchup

[TMagpie]

@Frogg

Misunderstood then. Yeah, the 2-3 Jitte plan over the SFM plan is totally fine. You sacrifice flexibility for more total card slots. I've seen many lists over the years do it.

As someone who ran a list like yours (minus Prelates) for more than a year--I can tell you that Mirran Crusader might seem sexy with exalted Triggers (I ran him with Elspeth to jump for 10 damage a swing), you'll soon realize that he is fairly meaningless for matchups outside of Elves and the mirror. Jund/white lists easily plow him, you're inability to untap him with Scryb matters more often than you'd like, and your matchups against punishing fire decks becomes almost impossible as you have replaced Knights with x/2 beaters who die to burn.

I'm only speaking from experience, so take that as you'd like it. The card is also fairly useless vs Truename decks as they have cantrips and can often find an answer to your Crusader much faster than you find an answer to their Truename. Once again, speaking from my experience running crusaders in maverick for almost two years.

[lavafrogg]

@Frogg

Misunderstood then. Yeah, the 2-3 Jitte plan over the SFM plan is totally fine. You sacrifice flexibility for more total card slots. I've seen many lists over the years do it.

As someone who ran a list like yours (minus Prelates) for more than a year--I can tell you that Mirran Crusader might seem sexy with exalted Triggers (I ran him with Elspeth to jump for 10 damage a swing), you'll soon realize that he is fairly meaningless for matchups outside of Elves and the mirror. Jund/white lists easily plow him, you're inability to untap him with Scryb matters more often than you'd like, and your matchups against punishing fire decks becomes almost impossible as you have replaced Knights with x/2 beaters who die to burn.

I'm only speaking from experience, so take that as you'd like it. The card is also fairly useless vs Truename decks as they have cantrips and can often find an answer to your Crusader much faster than you find an answer to their Truename. Once again, speaking from my experience running crusaders in maverick for almost two years.

Thanks for the feedback, as much as you have played Mirran in the past, he is bonkers in the current BUG and combo infested meta. He hits super hard in matchups where he cant be blocked and I think that you are seriously doubting the ability of Mom+Prelate in locking down enemy removal spells(and cantrips) while a double striking equipped crusader destroys the board.

Elves are super popular as is BUG, so hedging towards these decks doesn't seem like a bad thing and he is also the fastest clock we can offer against combo decks.

[TMagpie]

Thanks for the feedback, as much as you have played Mirran in the past, he is bonkers in the current BUG and combo infested meta. He hits super hard in matchups where he cant be blocked and I think that you are seriously doubting the ability of Mom+Prelate in locking down enemy removal spells(and cantrips) while a double striking equipped crusader destroys the board.

Elves are super popular as is BUG, so hedging towards these decks doesn't seem like a bad thing and he is also the fastest clock we can offer against combo decks.

I don't disagree with any of your comments. Miracles was the last straw that made me cut him because despite how often he died to Bolt (RUG and UWR Delver was popular at that time) I got enough free wins with him to warrant his use. Just sharing my experience is all :)

I love the bastard, and I would probably run him sideboard if I cut black.

[lavafrogg]

I don't disagree with any of your comments. Miracles was the last straw that made me cut him because despite how often he died to Bolt (RUG and UWR Delver was popular at that time) I got enough free wins with him to warrant his use. Just sharing my experience is all :)

I love the bastard, and I would probably run him sideboard if I cut black.

Lol!

I cut black!

Perfect!

That being said, zealous persecution and thoughtseize might pull me back....

[TMagpie]

Lol!

I cut black!

Perfect!

That being said, zealous persecution and thoughtseize might pull me back....

Yeah...

Toxic (for Truename) and Deathrite (for miracles) was what got me to switch to black.

[lavafrogg]

Yeah...

Toxic (for Truename) and Deathrite (for miracles) was what got me to switch to black.

Why would you want toxicdeluge? That sounds like a terrible idea as you are pretty much wrathing yourself, right?

[Warden]

Why would you want toxicdeluge? That sounds like a terrible idea as you are pretty much wrathing yourself, right?

I've been a big advocate of this for years. On paper it's contradictory but against troublesome swarm matchups, the collateral of losing 1-2 guys is justified if it means you mop up their board. This is literally the only card guaranteed to ruin elves, as even ZP doesn't kill off x/2 folks. It's also a goddamn house against DnT.

[Rascalyote]

If you're in a position where Toxic is going to ruin your board, you're -probably- ahead and don't need to cast it. Toxic is also really good in midrange matchups where you can wipe everything but leave your Knight as she's bigger than any threat a midrange deck can pull against you.

Side-Note: I love ZP so much but anyone else feel when WB for Zealous is the most awkward mana cost as basic forest -> any other land can't cast it (unless you next level them with filters lel) and a lot of the matchups where you want Zealous they have wasteland so getting your forest is really important, this usually stops me from playing more than 2 Zealous in the board. Just wondering if anyone felt that same odd feeling with such an awesome card.

[TMagpie]

If you're in a position where Toxic is going to ruin your board, you're -probably- ahead and don't need to cast it. Toxic is also really good in midrange matchups where you can wipe everything but leave your Knight as she's bigger than any threat a midrange deck can pull against you.

Side-Note: I love ZP so much but anyone else feel when WB for Zealous is the most awkward mana cost as basic forest -> any other land can't cast it (unless you next level them with filters lel) and a lot of the matchups where you want Zealous they have wasteland so getting your forest is really important, this usually stops me from playing more than 2 Zealous in the board. Just wondering if anyone felt that same odd feeling with such an awesome card.

I can barely stand running Abrupt Decay let alone a WB card. But then again, I try to run as little black as humanly possible.

As for the Toxic discussion, I have lost many games where zealous was in my hand and I can't hurt their board unless they block or try to go wide against me. Toxic I've even sided in vs angel tokens, I've drawn it against a Truename equipped with batterskull, I've drawn it to clear their 3-4 Goyfs leaving my 1 Knight standing, its great versus eldrazi, great vs serra avengers, great vs enemy Mirran Crusaders, etc...

I wouldn't say its a strict upgrade to Zealous, but I definitely prefer it.

[Luthiereisfun]

I like ZP as my main TNN killer. That said for the reasons others have already stated I like to pack at least 1 TD in the SB. It can hurt us, but is worth it if it imo especially with KOTR. I agree that hitting W/B is awkward. That's another big reason why I like DRS is the color fixing.

[lavafrogg]

I can barely stand running Abrupt Decay let alone a WB card. But then again, I try to run as little black as humanly possible.

As for the Toxic discussion, I have lost many games where zealous was in my hand and I can't hurt their board unless they block or try to go wide against me. Toxic I've even sided in vs angel tokens, I've drawn it against a Truename equipped with batterskull, I've drawn it to clear their 3-4 Goyfs leaving my 1 Knight standing, its great versus eldrazi, great vs serra avengers, great vs enemy Mirran Crusaders, etc...

I wouldn't say its a strict upgrade to Zealous, but I definitely prefer it.

First, Miracles arguments are no longer valid especially when they normally played EtA EoT to avoid sorcery speed removal.

Second, your examples are against good matchups that we have i.e. Goyfs(Abrupt Decay), Eldrazi, DnT(which you used twice also see: Abrupt Decay/ZP), where ZP is going to be better in harder matchups like BUG and Elves. Resolving Deluge against BUG might wipe their board, in your scenario, but you still have a batterskull to deal with. Deluge might be the best card to deal with {insert scenario} but I find that not getting in the terrible unwinnable scenario is a much better plan... i.e. extra pridemages to kill all equipment and have creatures that outclass 3/1's(Knight, Crusader, Sigarada, etc), or ways to kill 3/1's i.e. ZP.

If you are constantly in game states where the only thing that will save you is a mass removal spell to clear the whole board... something went wrong and there should be a better plan of attack. In the elves matchup, they can have all the 2/2's they want... it means they are running slow enough to get hatebears and equipment online which are our haymakers in the matchup. Most of the time they kill you and combo in the same turn and usually only have 1-3 elves in play before the combo turn... which is a case where deluge is worse than ZP.

An added bonus, ZP is faster against storm's goblin tokens and ZP can also save your creatures from opposing -1/-1 effects, obviously not dread of night, but from ZP and Golgari Charms or electrickery type effects.

I know that we can sit here and name situations where x is better than y or visa versa, but I hope we can all agree in a non-specific meta, the main reasons to splash black are thought seize, abrupt decay, zealous persecution and consistent DRS activation's not black sweepers that also clear our board or {random black card that is good against some tier 3 deck}.

@Rasca- I have said before that I find Maverick to have a way too fragile mana base to support a 3rd color in a wasteland meta without the use of Life from the Loam. This has been made less of a problem by DRS, but eating our own graveyards directly shrinks our Knights. So I don't play DRS or a splash color. If I was to play a splash, it would be black for Seize, Decay and Zealous.

EDIT:

TWO more top 8's!

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : Maverick
// CREATOR : Jacob Kory
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Forest
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [C14] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [M14] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [CMD] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [THS] Thoughtseize

and

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : Punishing Maverick
// CREATOR : Erick Velasquez
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [R] Taiga
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
3 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [] Birds of Paradise
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [] Renegade Rallier
1 [] Samut, Voice of Dissent
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [GTC] Domri Rade
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
3 [CMD] Punishing Fire
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [] Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 1 [C15] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of the Void

so GWb and GWr both make an appearance!

[TMagpie]

First, Miracles arguments are no longer valid especially when they normally played EtA EoT to avoid sorcery speed removal.

Second, your examples are against good matchups that we have i.e. Goyfs(Abrupt Decay), Eldrazi, DnT(which you used twice also see: Abrupt Decay/ZP), where ZP is going to be better in harder matchups like BUG and Elves. Resolving Deluge against BUG might wipe their board, in your scenario, but you still have a batterskull to deal with. Deluge might be the best card to deal with {insert scenario} but I find that not getting in the terrible unwinnable scenario is a much better plan... i.e. extra pridemages to kill all equipment and have creatures that outclass 3/1's(Knight, Crusader, Sigarada, etc), or ways to kill 3/1's i.e. ZP.

If you are constantly in game states where the only thing that will save you is a mass removal spell to clear the whole board... something went wrong and there should be a better plan of attack. In the elves matchup, they can have all the 2/2's they want... it means they are running slow enough to get hatebears and equipment online which are our haymakers in the matchup. Most of the time they kill you and combo in the same turn and usually only have 1-3 elves in play before the combo turn... which is a case where deluge is worse than ZP.

An added bonus, ZP is faster against storm's goblin tokens and ZP can also save your creatures from opposing -1/-1 effects, obviously not dread of night, but from ZP and Golgari Charms or electrickery type effects.

I know that we can sit here and name situations where x is better than y or visa versa, but I hope we can all agree in a non-specific meta, the main reasons to splash black are thought seize, abrupt decay, zealous persecution and consistent DRS activation's not black sweepers that also clear our board or {random black card that is good against some tier 3 deck}.

@Rasca- I have said before that I find Maverick to have a way too fragile mana base to support a 3rd color in a wasteland meta without the use of Life from the Loam. This has been made less of a problem by DRS, but eating our own graveyards directly shrinks our Knights. So I don't play DRS or a splash color. If I was to play a splash, it would be black for Seize, Decay and Zealous.

EDIT:

TWO more top 8's!

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : Maverick
// CREATOR : Jacob Kory
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Forest
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [C14] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [M14] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [CMD] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [NPH] Melira, Sylvok Outcast
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [THS] Thoughtseize

and

// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : Punishing Maverick
// CREATOR : Erick Velasquez
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [R] Taiga
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
3 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
4 [KTK] Windswept Heath
1 [] Birds of Paradise
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [] Renegade Rallier
1 [] Samut, Voice of Dissent
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [GTC] Domri Rade
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
3 [CMD] Punishing Fire
4 [] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [] Nissa, Vital Force
SB: 1 [C15] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of the Void

so GWb and GWr both make an appearance!

The reason I like toxic over zealous is because I don't like sideboard cards that only help me when I'm winning/even. If I'm siding it in--it's to pull me out out of unwinnable game states, and not because it would be a cool combat trick. Also, zealous is not that great against elves unless they're a fairy shitty elf player. I've seen them come back from 2-3 resolved terminuses. Sweepers alone is not the answer to elves.

[lavafrogg]

The reason I like toxic over zealous is because I don't like sideboard cards that only help me when I'm winning/even. If I'm siding it in--it's to pull me out out of unwinnable game states, and not because it would be a cool combat trick. Also, zealous is not that great against elves unless they're a fairy shitty elf player. I've seen them come back from 2-3 resolved terminuses. Sweepers alone is not the answer to elves.


First, Miracles arguments are no longer valid especially when they normally played EtA EoT to avoid sorcery speed removal.

In the elves matchup, they can have all the 2/2's they want... it means they are running slow enough to get hatebears and equipment online which are our haymakers in the matchup. Most of the time they kill you and combo in the same turn and usually only have 1-3 elves in play before the combo turn... which is a case where deluge is worse than ZP.

I know that we can sit here and name situations where x is better than y or visa versa, but I hope we can all agree in a non-specific meta, the main reasons to splash black are thought seize, abrupt decay, zealous persecution and consistent DRS activation's not black sweepers that also clear our board or {random black card that is good against some tier 3 deck}.

[TMagpie]

Let me keep it simply then in regards to your comments on elves.

If sweepers is your primary plan on elves, then you will never consistently beat elves. Sweepers that happen to be in your sideboard is also okay to bring against elves, but that in and of itself doesn't do anything against elves.

If you're going to run sweepers--run the sweepers that you need to 180 the match. If it does not 180 the match you need it in, then it is useless.

There is only 2 reasons you want to run black in Maverick. Discard and Deathrite. Everything else is meh at most, and only useful should you expect a very specific metagame.

Abrupt Decay is only good against Miracles as it allows you to shut off a part of their game plan. Outside of miracles its either a bad krosan grip or a bad fatal push.

Zealous Persecution is another card that is only useful in super specific game states, and is overall bad every other time. For example, why bring it in vs a Truename list when it can only hit 1 of those decks creatures? It doesn't hurt either Deathrite or Leovold, it doesn't hurt flipped delvers, it doesn't hurt goyfs, shardless agents, and it doesn't even hurt Mirran Crusaders. If you only play opponents who don't kill your board and hence the +1/+1 can matter--then you most likely don't even need zealous, but if you drew it then its gravy.

[Koby]

Zealous Persecution kills DnT's active Mother of Runes. This reason alone is sufficient for its inclusion in the sideboard.

[Luthiereisfun]

Plus even if it doesn't totally wipe Elves board it definitely buys you time which is much better then cards that just do nothing. That time can help you reach a more relevant hatebear or win condition. I think TNN is also popular enough that having it as a clean answer to him is good to have in your arsenal.

[TMagpie]

Zealous is not a bad card. Calling it a card worth splashing black for is folly. When you've already splashed black, you can definitely think about adding it in. But to call it strictly better than other options out there is dishonest. One could just as easily run Engineered Plague, Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, and a host of many other sweepers. But when putting together a sideboard I don't look at those 15 cards and think "but what if there's a mothers mirror?"

[Luthiereisfun]

Zealous is not a bad card. Calling it a card worth splashing black for is folly. When you've already splashed black, you can definitely think about adding it in. But to call it strictly better than other options out there is dishonest. One could just as easily run Engineered Plague, Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, and a host of many other sweepers. But when putting together a sideboard I don't look at those 15 cards and think "but what if there's a mothers mirror?"

Is anyone saying that's the sole reason they splash black for? Honestly asking.

I run black for a lot of reasons so for me fitting zp in the SB is no problem.

[lavafrogg]

Is anyone saying that's the sole reason they splash black for? Honestly asking.

I run black for a lot of reasons so for me fitting zp in the SB is no problem.

I said that the main reasons to splash black in Maverick are Abrupt Decay, Zealous Persecution, Thoughtsieze and DRS activations.

The 3 have the black splash that have top 8'd since the banning have all played Zealous and Thoughtsieze, two of them have played Abrupt Decay but the third used Engineered Plauge as its only other black card.

I am not saying these are the only cards, just the main/first cards that should be considered.

[TMagpie]

Is anyone saying that's the sole reason they splash black for? Honestly asking.

I run black for a lot of reasons so for me fitting zp in the SB is no problem.

If you go to the top of the conversation, I informed LavaFrog that I prefer Toxic over Zealous. He then spent multiple pages telling me that Zealous is one of several reasons to run black. I continually restate to him that my choice of black sweepers comes from both testing and a core logic that I find important. He continues to restate that its one of the reasons to run black.

I don't disagree with him that along with black comes access to sweeper effects that are better than either Retribution of the Meek or Holy Light. I simply don't agree that Zealous is the primary one to pick among those sweepers. I have layed my reasons for why my testing has shown Toxic Deluge to be superior as a reliable sweeper that is useful in many more game states, matchups, and hits many more targets than a simple one time -1/-1 effect. I gave several scenarios that I have faced where relying on a small sweeper effect in insufficient are turning around a game.

Frog, to his credit, suggested I simply don't get put into bad positions. I rebutted that if I'm going to run a sideboard card, I want ones that are able to 180 bad positions otherwise what's the point of wasting a sideboard slot on an effect that is not good if you're in a losing position.

The discussion is not on whether Maverick should or shouldn't run Sweeper effects. The discussion is that its possible that Zealous Persecution is not the best possible sweeper effect that you can run in Maverick and that there are times you would prefer other sweepers instead.

Where you place yourself in this discussion is up to you.

[Luthiereisfun]

If you go to the top of the conversation, I informed LavaFrog that I prefer Toxic over Zealous. He then spent multiple pages telling me that Zealous is one of several reasons to run black. I continually restate to him that my choice of black sweepers comes from both testing and a core logic that I find important. He continues to restate that its one of the reasons to run black.

I don't disagree with him that along with black comes access to sweeper effects that are better than either Retribution of the Meek or Holy Light. I simply don't agree that Zealous is the primary one to pick among those sweepers. I have layed my reasons for why my testing has shown Toxic Deluge to be superior as a reliable sweeper that is useful in many more game states, matchups, and hits many more targets than a simple one time -1/-1 effect. I gave several scenarios that I have faced where relying on a small sweeper effect in insufficient are turning around a game.

Frog, to his credit, suggested I simply don't get put into bad positions. I rebutted that if I'm going to run a sideboard card, I want ones that are able to 180 bad positions otherwise what's the point of wasting a sideboard slot on an effect that is not good if you're in a losing position.

The discussion is not on whether Maverick should or shouldn't run Sweeper effects. The discussion is that its possible that Zealous Persecution is not the best possible sweeper effect that you can run in Maverick and that there are times you would prefer other sweepers instead.

Where you place yourself in this discussion is up to you.




Ah I see. Thank you for catching me up to speed, somewhere in the thread I got lost. Right now I am packing 2x zp in the sb mainly for TNN + other applications and 1x TD for Elves and of course other scenarios it's good. I don't think one is strictly better than the other. If I had to cut a sweeper though I would cut one of the ZP just because I like to try and keep sb slots as diverse as possible.

Admittedly I was more worried about Elves/TNN in the new meta which is why I packed 3.

If those decks don't see as much play I could see going down to 2.

[lavafrogg]

Ah I see. Thank you for catching me up to speed, somewhere in the thread I got lost. Right now I am packing 2x zp in the sb mainly for TNN + other applications and 1x TD for Elves and of course other scenarios it's good. I don't think one is strictly better than the other. If I had to cut a sweeper though I would cut one of the ZP just because I like to try and keep sb slots as diverse as possible.

Admittedly I was more worried about Elves/TNN in the new meta which is why I packed 3.

If those decks don't see as much play I could see going down to 2.

Yeah, we just have a way of arguing and agreeing at the same time.

We both feel that you need more than sweepers to beat elves.

He likes deluge where you need to clear the whole board, I like ZP where you just wipe certain threats from the opponent and leave your board alone.

I am not sure where the white sweeper discussion came from because we never touched those :p but my personal favorite anti-fair card is Blessed Alliance as it come in against burn as well.

[nicoleptik]

my personal favorite anti-fair card is Blessed Alliance as it come in against burn as well.

And every MU with big dumb untargetable creatures: S&S, lands, Turbo Depth, BR Reanimator...

[TMagpie]

Yeah, we just have a way of arguing and agreeing at the same time.

We both feel that you need more than sweepers to beat elves.

He likes deluge where you need to clear the whole board, I like ZP where you just wipe certain threats from the opponent and leave your board alone.

I am not sure where the white sweeper discussion came from because we never touched those :p but my personal favorite anti-fair card is Blessed Alliance as it come in against burn as well.

Yeah, my non-magic life got stressful and it started bleeding into my argument. For that I apologize.

Both Blessed Alliance and Gerard's Verdict are on my watch list of cards to add to my sideboard to improve my burn matchup while being useful outside of Burn. Gerard's Verdict primarily to be hate against both Burn and combo.

Another weird sideboard card I keep being tempted to run is Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize.

[Thunderknight]

Yesterday I went to GP Richmond and went 7-3-2 in total between 3 legacy challenges. Since Top was banned, I've been try out some spicy cards and trying to find a good shell that I can pilot for GP Vegas. This is the list that I ran at the end of the day after extensive testing that I felt comfortable playing.

4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Mother of Runes
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruiphix
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Sword of Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas

SB:
3x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Winter Orb
1x Choke
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle.

Challenge 1
R/G Lands - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-1 Win
Esper Deathblade - 1-2 Lost
Belcher - Drew (but lost in fun games)
Winning record (2-1-1).

Challenge 2
4C Delver - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-0 Win
Bant Deathblade - 2-0 Win
Death and Taxes - Drew (Didn't play it out)

Challenge 3
Esper Stoneblade - 1-2 Lost
Enchantress - 1-2 Lost
I can't remember this matchup but I won lol.
TES Storm - 2-1 Win

Some Notes After
1.) Running Courser Feels good. Fixes awkward draws and Idc if my opponent see what card I'm drawing. Pairs well with Library.
2.) There wasn't a game where I needed Abrupt Decay to help me win. I realize that any permanent can be solved with a Pridemage or a Sword, with the exception of opposing Planeswalkers. That's why Pulse is there. It also serves as a catch all spell for pesky cards as well.
3.) Winter Orb is a complex card. I like it, but it really depends on the board state. I board this in against Deathblade variants and it works phenomenal.

[lavafrogg]

Yesterday I went to GP Richmond and went 7-3-2 in total between 3 legacy challenges. Since Top was banned, I've been try out some spicy cards and trying to find a good shell that I can pilot for GP Vegas. This is the list that I ran at the end of the day after extensive testing that I felt comfortable playing.

4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Mother of Runes
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruiphix
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Sword of Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas

SB:
3x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Winter Orb
1x Choke
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle.

Challenge 1
R/G Lands - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-1 Win
Esper Deathblade - 1-2 Lost
Belcher - Drew (but lost in fun games)
Winning record (2-1-1).

Challenge 2
4C Delver - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-0 Win
Bant Deathblade - 2-0 Win
Death and Taxes - Drew (Didn't play it out)

Challenge 3
Esper Stoneblade - 1-2 Lost
Enchantress - 1-2 Lost
I can't remember this matchup but I won lol.
TES Storm - 2-1 Win

Some Notes After
1.) Running Courser Feels good. Fixes awkward draws and Idc if my opponent see what card I'm drawing. Pairs well with Library.
2.) There wasn't a game where I needed Abrupt Decay to help me win. I realize that any permanent can be solved with a Pridemage or a Sword, with the exception of opposing Planeswalkers. That's why Pulse is there. It also serves as a catch all spell for pesky cards as well.
3.) Winter Orb is a complex card. I like it, but it really depends on the board state. I board this in against Deathblade variants and it works phenomenal.

We have to ask: how were the collected companies? What are your thoughts about the card/ the value you get from it?

[aspsnake]

Yesterday I went to GP Richmond and went 7-3-2 in total between 3 legacy challenges. Since Top was banned, I've been try out some spicy cards and trying to find a good shell that I can pilot for GP Vegas. This is the list that I ran at the end of the day after extensive testing that I felt comfortable playing.

4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Mother of Runes
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Courser of Kruiphix
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Sword of Plowshares
3x Green Sun's Zendith
2x Collected Company
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas

SB:
3x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Winter Orb
1x Choke
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle.

Challenge 1
R/G Lands - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-1 Win
Esper Deathblade - 1-2 Lost
Belcher - Drew (but lost in fun games)
Winning record (2-1-1).

Challenge 2
4C Delver - 2-0 Win
BR Reanimator - 2-0 Win
Bant Deathblade - 2-0 Win
Death and Taxes - Drew (Didn't play it out)

Challenge 3
Esper Stoneblade - 1-2 Lost
Enchantress - 1-2 Lost
I can't remember this matchup but I won lol.
TES Storm - 2-1 Win

Some Notes After
1.) Running Courser Feels good. Fixes awkward draws and Idc if my opponent see what card I'm drawing. Pairs well with Library.
2.) There wasn't a game where I needed Abrupt Decay to help me win. I realize that any permanent can be solved with a Pridemage or a Sword, with the exception of opposing Planeswalkers. That's why Pulse is there. It also serves as a catch all spell for pesky cards as well.
3.) Winter Orb is a complex card. I like it, but it really depends on the board state. I board this in against Deathblade variants and it works phenomenal.

Congrats on the good result!

I double lavafrogg's comment: how did the companies do?
Also, do you think that Sword of L&S and second Teeg are really required since the Miracles are gone?
Is just 1 graveyard hate slot (surgical) in sb really enough? I see though that you did really well against both Reanimators.
And lastly, how do you find Birds of Paradise vs Noble Hierarch slot?

[TMagpie]

Las Vegas GPT

It was 68 man event, did not do as well as I had hoped but managed to top 8 regardless. Seven rounds in total. Maindeck is still the same as it has been for all of 2017, netting me a prior GPT win and CFB 4k top 8 which had 114 players. I did make heavy changes to the Sideboard due to the disappearance of Miracles, but I find that I don’t have enough raw data to make a decision on changes to the main deck.

Saying all that, here goes the event.

Round One: UR Delver 2-0

This matchup was as lopsided as it has always been. I resolved Knights in the first game which he couldn’t beat. I resolved Thalia and Stoneforge in the second game which he ignored because he wanted to be ready for Knights.

Round Two: UB Reanimator 2-1

Do not be confused by the name UB, this was BR list that cut Faithless Looting for Careful Studies and added Brainstorm somehow. Game one I got lucky. On the draw he played a Polluted Delta and a Lotus Petal while on the play I cast a turn 2 Thalia. At some point he threw an Unmask at me just to see what other cards I had before scooping the game.

He got a fast draw on game two which ended me, but only had a turn 2 reanimate play in game three; which was unfortunately stopped by a turn 1 DRS with Karakas backup. He was never able to recover and it was a quick win from there.

Round Three: Nic Fit 2-0

He had a loose but strong possible opening of Turn 1 Bayou Veteran explorer with a Cabal Therapy in hand. Sadly I was on the play and hit him with Bayou + Swords to Plowshares on turn 2. He never drew another land and died to Batterskull.

Game two was more normal as he got a Leovold out followed by a Pernicious Deed. Sadly I had already resolved Knight of the Reliquary at that point and double wastelands later he was forced to crack the deed for only 2, afterwards I cast my second Knight of the Reliquary and it was over.

Round Four: Maverick 0-2

Both games were super grindy and super long. However, maindeck Abrupt Decays helped him win the Mother of Runes advantage game 1 while a no Mother of Runes setup game two doomed me to be eternally at the back foot versus his Jitte. His overly cautious play gave me a few outs but I failed to draw either of the two Toxic Deluges I had boarded in. The games were very close regardless.

Round Five: Elves 2-1

Game one had me use Mother of Runes exclusively for evasion as a turn 2 Thalia started forcing damage in. A follow up scooze a few turns later along with some lucky wastelands on his Dryad Arbors allowed to get an evasive 4 damage clock. Made a misplay where I didn’t cast a 2nd Thalia early on to get another creature in the graveyard to grow my Ooze to a 5 power creature. The game ended with him at 4 casting Natural Order.

Game 2 was much simpler. Turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary was followed up by Plow + Wasteland with Knight searching for Thespian Stage. Unable to kill the Knight he drew several cards before passing the turn back and dying to Marit Lage. Game 3 was pure luck with a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, turn 2 Thespian Stage + Swords to Plowshares on his mana source. Turn 3 I top deck Dark Depths. The combo forces him to try to go off with a turn 3 natural order for lethal; but a 20/20 blocker was enough to keep me alive and he immediately dies on the crack-back.

Round Six: Death and Taxes 1-2

Game one was fairly boring as these matchups go. He was able to grab a Jitte, I was not. Game two it was fairly similar; I got an early batterskull down to apply pressure, followed by getting a Jitte active. The game was over soon after. Game three was a damn grind with him finally getting an advantage after resolving his 3rd Mother of Runes to my none. I had a few outs with Scryb Ranger later on, and his unwillingness to be blown out by Knight tricks kept me alive a few turns longer than I should have been—but Moms are really good in this matchup.

Round Seven: Grixis Delver 2-1

Game one was fairly simple. I cast Thalia on turn two, he casts Force of Will. I cast Knight of the reliquary on turn three, he doesn’t daze and delver can’t beat an active knight.

Game two I kept a sketchy one land hand with a Birds, a Deathrite Shaman, and a Green Sun’s Zenith. I fetch for a Forest and cast Deathrite—he dazes it. I then miss a land drop and cast Birds, he pushes it. I draw a colorless land and cast GSZ for 1, he forces it. I am unable to cast spells as I die to Delver beats.

Game three he kills and counters the first 3 spells I cast, I then make a 20/20 and win the game despite his full grip of removal and counters.

Top Eight

I get eight place and we decide to split the cash prize. Since I already have my byes people did the concessions dance until the last few players who had to play got to play.

Great event overall, but I feel I threw away some games I shouldn’t have.

My List

Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian’s Stage

Sideboard: 15
3 Duress
3 Orim’s Chant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

Post Event Review:

I was most unhappy with Maze of Ith all day. Except for against the Delver matchups, the card has been fairly lackluster. And while I did face two delver lists today—I am still unsure how prevalent that archetype will be from a “game one” perspective. Possibly moving this card to the sideboard along with Sword of Fire and Ice.

Sword of Fire and Ice has been situationally relevant in many games, but if you’re observant you’d see that I currently run a 61 card maindeck. Without Miracles as my worry I have been “hungry” for a value sword less and less—primarily because I’ve been either facing off against combo or I’ve been facing off in the “Get Jitte” stoneblade mirrors. Simply having a sword to make my low tier threats powerful enough to Terminus doesn’t seem as relevant.

Did not draw my Deluges today. Two of my losses could have been 180’d by only Deluges as a Serra Avenger wearing a SOFI and a Mirran Crusader would have killed me regardless had a I only had -1/-1 effects; however, I really could have used damn near any of the sweepers and still gotten value.

Dark Depths overperformed as usual netting me wins against both Elves and a bad board state which would normally spell lights out for Maverick. However, I did feel the card’s limitations in the two losses I had against both Maverick and D&T. I normally beat these lists but these two were good players and I wonder how many of wins in the past was attributed to the good players hiding from Miracles. More testing will now be needed.

Final Thoughts

This was the first truly big Legacy event in my area post-banning and the existence of two Maverick decks in the top 8 is very telling of the coming shift. I faced a much wider mix of decks than I normally do and I there was even representation throughout between Stoneblade lists, Delver Lists, and combo lists. As much as I hated the principle of the Top banning—I’m really enjoying the end results.

[Thunderknight]

Congrats on the good result!

I double lavafrogg's comment: how did the companies do?
Also, do you think that Sword of L&S and second Teeg are really required since the Miracles are gone?
Is just 1 graveyard hate slot (surgical) in sb really enough? I see though that you did really well against both Reanimators.
And lastly, how do you find Birds of Paradise vs Noble Hierarch slot?

To answer the question about collected company,

This versatile card helps in two ways: either regain board control from losing creatures by a wrath/lots of removal, or break the stalemate by going wide. Every time collected company resolved, I felt that I was gaining board control and thus led to victory by just having more creatures that my opponent could handle. Matchups like Deathblade and Delver its all about board control. Now, you don't need collected company. While the card is really good, I board it out sometimes for stronger cards that will help me win matches that CC will not (i.e storm, reanimator). You don't need to massively rebuild the deck around this card. I said before in previous post that this card is in accompaniment to GSZ. However, if anyone wants to run this card, I strongly urge them to play the 25-26 creature count. 26 is the prefer number given the amount of copies of CC I was running (2 was the number I felt the most comfortable).

Bird vs Noble arugement:
I like both, and actually I'm strongly considering cutting the 4th Deathrite Shaman for a Noble Hierarch. I'm sure at some earlier post the debate between having a 0/1 flyer that can break stalemates or a 0/1 exlated creature that can sometimes break stalemates was discussed. (On a personally note, I like my foil German Bird of Paradise and I"m not cutting it :tongue:) The deck only runs 7 fetches, which really we can't really eat early because it make our Knights smaller.

Sword of Light and Shadow topic:
Deathblade is very popular right now as a substitute to former Miracles players' deck of choice. Everyone knows how Deathblade can be miserable to play against since it preys on our archetype, (fairest of the fair, yet resilience towards most hate). Qasali is our best silver bullet creature that deals with pesky enchantments and artifacts. Until something better comes along, getting back Pridemages from Light and Shadow feels amazing.


I also went 3-1-1 on a Legacy GPT that I'm writing a TR report. It should be on my blog by the end of the week.

[lavafrogg]

Super excited for everyone's recent work and recent placements. I do have an off the wall question though...

I am completely off of Knight at this point and am having trouble re-making a GW manabase...

Do you guys have any ideas for a straight GW mana base?

I am going back and forth with multiple Cradles, multiple Karakas, Caverns... things of that nature.

Thanks for any help you could offer!

[TMagpie]

Super excited for everyone's recent work and recent placements. I do have an off the wall question though...

I am completely off of Knight at this point and am having trouble re-making a GW manabase...

Do you guys have any ideas for a straight GW mana base?

I am going back and forth with multiple Cradles, multiple Karakas, Caverns... things of that nature.

Thanks for any help you could offer!

I always start with the 14/14 color source base in my hatebear lists. When I used to run GW I ran:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

At the time I ran marsh flats because I ran 4 Mirran Crusader and 2 Elspeth's maindeck, so being able to fetch double plains was important to me while naturally drawing green overtime was okay for me.

The reason I ran 6 basics was because I wanted to be extra prepared against RUG delver, which was still omnipresent at the time. Between stifles and wastelands it was very easy to get cut off of color so I prepped for that.

If you wanted the maximum number of "fun of" lands (cradle, caverns, etc... then I would actually go the 8 fetch 3 savannah, 2 forest, 1 plains, 1 karakas, 1 horizon canopy suite as a starting point. This gives you the minimum 14 sources for each color and up to 6 slots of cards (4 of which I am assuming is wasteland)

[Whitefaces]

Not sure how much help this will be as I've not played Maverick for a long time, but I was lending all my blue cards to friends at my LGS this evening so played straight GW mav, a nice coincidence that you're talking about exactly that.

This is what I played

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Rogues Passage
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB/
2 Choke
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant
2 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

0-2 vs Ant
2-1 vs Elves
2-0 vs RUG Delver (nice to play such a classic matchup! Mav did what mav does)
2-0 vs Sneak and Show

I didn't get to use the sideboard too much, KotR was the all star as always. I would run a Horizon Canopy but I don't own one unfortunately.

[lavafrogg]

I always start with the 14/14 color source base in my hatebear lists. When I used to run GW I ran:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

At the time I ran marsh flats because I ran 4 Mirran Crusader and 2 Elspeth's maindeck, so being able to fetch double plains was important to me while naturally drawing green overtime was okay for me.

The reason I ran 6 basics was because I wanted to be extra prepared against RUG delver, which was still omnipresent at the time. Between stifles and wastelands it was very easy to get cut off of color so I prepped for that.

If you wanted the maximum number of "fun of" lands (cradle, caverns, etc... then I would actually go the 8 fetch 3 savannah, 2 forest, 1 plains, 1 karakas, 1 horizon canopy suite as a starting point. This gives you the minimum 14 sources for each color and up to 6 slots of cards (4 of which I am assuming is wasteland)

Do you still have a list?

[TMagpie]

Do you still have a list?

It was a million years ago, iirc it was similar to this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tower of the Magistrate

I still thought of Dryad Arbor as a land back then, and counted it as a green source. Also notice lack of Scryb Ranger and hence a dependence on Elspeth and mom for evasion (Truename felt so busted when I ran no evasion outside of the killable elspeth)

The tech is super archaic but it's kind of what I thought was good at the time.

[lavafrogg]

It was a million years ago, iirc it was similar to this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tower of the Magistrate

I still thought of Dryad Arbor as a land back then, and counted it as a green source. Also notice lack of Scryb Ranger and hence a dependence on Elspeth and mom for evasion (Truename felt so busted when I ran no evasion outside of the killable elspeth)

The tech is super archaic but it's kind of what I thought was good at the time.

I am currently testing in the realm of GW hatebears and less traditional Maverick, except they both can be classified as GW Stoneblade if we really want.. but that is all just semantics.

Very Experimental List:

3 Mother of Runes
4 Nobles Heirarch
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
3 Sanctum Prelate
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawas Jitte

3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
1 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
2 RiP
1 Manriki
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Containment Priest
3 Choke

This is kind of what I have been leaning towards over the last couple of weeks. Pretty much just GW Hate, with the sideboard kind of up in the air currently.

In testing it has game against most of the current format-in-flux, with Crusader being much faster than Knight straight up. The biggest weakness for Crusader, lightning bolt, is usually covered by Mother of Runes or Prelate. Scavenging Ooze is to shut down DRS and Snapcaster immediately, while the whole deck is more or less immune to graveyard hate.

Thoughts?

[DoomRabbit]

I picked up a playset of Living Wish because it's cheap and seems fun, and I love trying new things with this deck.
Lands and creatures are what this deck does best so seems reasonable.
However we have GSZ and knight to fetch up both of those already.

So what would Living Wish do that we can't with the other two?
Get mono-white creatures (prelate, canonist, containment priest), get those even in game 1 if appropriate.
Get lands that we really don't want to risk drawing (for me, things like bojuka bog, maze of ith maybe).

Downside is that the fastest we can jam it is turn 2, so those will only show up turn 3 onwards, which may or may not be way too late.

So that's where I'm at with it right now. Anyone have any thoughts/experience with the card?
I've so far seen it in deck lists from 2014/2015 (including this thread), any reason it isn't in more recent lists?

[Luthiereisfun]

I picked up a playset of Living Wish because it's cheap and seems fun, and I love trying new things with this deck.
Lands and creatures are what this deck does best so seems reasonable.
However we have GSZ and knight to fetch up both of those already.

So what would Living Wish do that we can't with the other two?
Get mono-white creatures (prelate, canonist, containment priest), get those even in game 1 if appropriate.
Get lands that we really don't want to risk drawing (for me, things like bojuka bog, maze of ith maybe).

Downside is that the fastest we can jam it is turn 2, so those will only show up turn 3 onwards, which may or may not be way too late.

So that's where I'm at with it right now. Anyone have any thoughts/experience with the card?
I've so far seen it in deck lists from 2014/2015 (including this thread), any reason it isn't in more recent lists?

At some point there were some living wish/Vial maverick decks that ran dark confidant. With aether vial you could use your mana to cast wish and then vial in the creature. It seemed to be a more flash in the pan type thing but it could be worth checking out.

[aspsnake]

I picked up a playset of Living Wish because it's cheap and seems fun, and I love trying new things with this deck.
Lands and creatures are what this deck does best so seems reasonable.
However we have GSZ and knight to fetch up both of those already.

So what would Living Wish do that we can't with the other two?
Get mono-white creatures (prelate, canonist, containment priest), get those even in game 1 if appropriate.
Get lands that we really don't want to risk drawing (for me, things like bojuka bog, maze of ith maybe).

Downside is that the fastest we can jam it is turn 2, so those will only show up turn 3 onwards, which may or may not be way too late.

So that's where I'm at with it right now. Anyone have any thoughts/experience with the card?
I've so far seen it in deck lists from 2014/2015 (including this thread), any reason it isn't in more recent lists?

I find Maverick's ability to jam creatures from GSZ and by just drawing them the reason why we even exist.

Upsides of Living Wish:
- Finding the right creature/land to answer the board state

Downsides of Living Wish:
- 2 mana more to do it
- 3 mana more if we have Thalia in play
- possibly 4 mana more if we are playing against D&T/mirror
- cannot pick Thoughtseize/Deluge/Zealous, which would be often nuts (but can pick Tidehollow Sculler/Orzhov Pontiff, in matches where you can afford it in time).
- often you will need to have a turn between getting a creature and actually playing it, which will give your opponent 1-2 turns to adapt their strategy.

If you feel that you want to tutor certain creatures, instead give Fauna Shaman a try. In fair low-removal matchups (again D&T, mirror, goblins (possibly elves with a slow hand) etc.), this card just shines. But the real thing here is that we are already positioned 50/50 or better in these matchups (except elves), so I think right now it's better to just jam creatures and claim the speed rather than the options.

[DoomRabbit]

If you feel that you want to tutor certain creatures, instead give Fauna Shaman a try. In fair low-removal matchups (again D&T, mirror, goblins (possibly elves with a slow hand) etc.), this card just shines. But the real thing here is that we are already positioned 50/50 or better in these matchups (except elves), so I think right now it's better to just jam creatures and claim the speed rather than the options.

That makes sense.
How about using it to close out the game then? I'm thinking the titanias and sigardas of this world, that you don't particularly want to draw early, but would love late game.

[aspsnake]

That makes sense.
How about using it to close out the game then? I'm thinking the titanias and sigardas of this world, that you don't particularly want to draw early, but would love late game.

Sigarda is sometimes nice early game as it can be put into play from Show&Tell and block Emrakul (especially cool if he comes from a Sneak Attack) and buy you some time.
Abovementioned Fauna Shaman can be used to discard these cards early game and find something that you can instantly play (Stoneforge, Mother of Runes, Knight etc.). Fauna Shaman is also not completely useless vs unfair matchups: responding to Show&Tell with an activation; t2 Fauna Shaman vs Storm to play a t3 Thalia that they can't discard (in games where they have a bad hand); vs Aluren you can find a Qasali Pridemage that you can search for and play instant-speed in case Aluren hits the table.
And for the late game, you already have zeniths to have a virtual 5-of any of these ;)

[TMagpie]

The issue with living Wish is 2-fold.

Green Suns is better mana efficiency wise; which means you need to run it with vial.

However--suddenly your Vial activations can be countered just by hitting living Wish--also no bueno.

Is living Wish unplayable? No--maverick is just not the right list for it.

I did use it in a meathooks brew. I ran gemstone hide sliver main so would do things like living Wish for elesh norn vs Jitte decks or living Wish for Karakas vs Reanimator, even living Wish for specific hate slivers depending on if I need lifelink, flying, poison, etc....

[Stuart]

One of the lists posted on the last page had a CoP: Red in the board. Kinda intrigued by this. I've found Burn to be manageable, but UR Delver is a little too close for comfort. How good do you guys think CoP: Red is against UR Delver? Obviously it's gonna be awesome if we're on the play and they're using Bolts, Swiftspears, and Stormchasers, but if they just do the Delver + burn for board control plan, it seems lackluster.

[tescrin]

EDIT: Crap, I thought I was in the bant thread.
I would run Warmth instead of Cop:Red, even with it's weaknesses.

[TMagpie]

One of the lists posted on the last page had a CoP: Red in the board. Kinda intrigued by this. I've found Burn to be manageable, but UR Delver is a little too close for comfort. How good do you guys think CoP: Red is against UR Delver? Obviously it's gonna be awesome if we're on the play and they're using Bolts, Swiftspears, and Stormchasers, but if they just do the Delver + burn for board control plan, it seems lackluster.


Weirdly I've always found the opposite to be true, where burn is near unwinnable while UR is almost a bye.

[TMagpie]

EDIT: Crap, I thought I was in the bant thread.
I would run Warmth instead of Cop:Red, even with it's weaknesses.

I would like to mention (and this is important) with the loss of Miracles the presence of Sulfuric Vortex will definitely drop, making life gain effects like this much more practical against Burn.

[Thunderknight]

I would like to mention (and this is important) with the loss of Miracles the presence of Sulfuric Vortex will definitely drop, making life gain effects like this much more practical against Burn.

Courser of Kruphix helps against burn, for at least G1. Gaining incremental life is relevant and having a 2/4 body makes the burn player have 2-1 (exception of Fireblast) themselves in order to remove it.

[tescrin]

I'll say that if you're willing to risk requiring Noble/DRS/a-1-of-Dual for blue, Chill is definitely a house. I was recommending it in my edited post.

Not only is it good against Burn no matter what they do, but it has application against Storm and Pfire decks if nothing else.

I use an ETutor board so I have 3 virtual copies in my board. The dual-land in the side may well be worth the trouble given that it really does count against Storm pretty well, and is obnoxious to get rid of being an enchant. Warmth treated me well enough in Junk/DGA/etc. but Chill is *quite* good. I can't recommend it enough.


While I'm gushing over SB cards, I'm at 2 Canonist at the moment with my 2 tutors. Their effect in Infect has proven to be ridiculous, and combined with the Aluren and Food Chain matchups slowly growing in number and the everpresent Storm, she's pulling her weight. Not the worst against Burn either as a means to slow them down. Rift Bolt becomes a time-walk almost, Swiftspear becomes utterly meh when the *best* it can do is be a 2/3.

[Thunderknight]

I need everyone's help.

I'm designing an evaluation matrix for the most popular SB cards. This matrix is going to be big and I need lots of help. When this matrix is done, it will act as a general SB building-guide. The reason why I'm doing this is because a.) I'm bored, and b.) I want other Maverick players to be ready for GP Vegas for those battling, c.) For new Maverick players, this will help them build a SB for their respective home meta.

I'm going to state some assumptions:
1.) This Matrix is for GW/b builds (I don't have experiences in Punishing Maverick, however, if someone wants to create one for that build, they can use this model to help construct it).
2.) We are ignoring any and all MB list. The reason why is because the MB game plan has not changed since its inception, with the exception of Deathrite Shaman.

I"m going to list 8 decks that I want everyone to rank from most difficult to win to least difficult to win.
Grixis Delver
Show and Tell
Death and Taxes
Shardless Bug
Storm
BR Reanimator
Elves
Death/Stoneblade Variants

[TMagpie]

I need everyone's help.

I'm designing an evaluation matrix for the most popular SB cards. This matrix is going to be big and I need lots of help. When this matrix is done, it will act as a general SB building-guide. The reason why I'm doing this is because a.) I'm bored, and b.) I want other Maverick players to be ready for GP Vegas for those battling, c.) For new Maverick players, this will help them build a SB for their respective home meta.

I'm going to state some assumptions:
1.) This Matrix is for GW/b builds (I don't have experiences in Punishing Maverick, however, if someone wants to create one for that build, they can use this model to help construct it).
2.) We are ignoring any and all MB list. The reason why is because the MB game plan has not changed since its inception, with the exception of Deathrite Shaman.

I"m going to list 8 decks that I want everyone to rank from most difficult to win to least difficult to win.
Grixis Delver
Show and Tell
Death and Taxes
Shardless Bug
Storm
BR Reanimator
Elves
Death/Stoneblade Variants

According to my matchup tracker over my last 56 games, this is the ranking for these decks.

0-2 (Favorability -4) Elves
0-1 (Favorability -2) Show and Tell
1-1 (Favorability 0) BR Reanimator
1-0 (Favorability 2) Death/Stoneblade Variants
3-1 (Favorability 3) Shardless Bug
4-1 (Favorability 5) Death and Taxes
4-1 (Favorability 5) Storm


0-0 (Favorability n/a) Grixis Delver

Match record tracks matches won, favorability is scored per games won/lost. The way I did the math is I gave myself +1 for ever game I win, and -1 for ever game I lost. The best showcasing of this is with the BR Reanimator matchup.

I played two matches against it, winning one and losing the other. One match I lost 0-2 meaning I got -1 for game 1 and -1 for game 2, totaling a -2 unfavorability. The second match it was reversed with me winning both games 1 and 2 for a total +2 favorabilty.

As can be seen, Storm and D&T are super great matches while Shardless is more back and forth. However, with only 2 matches each for Elves and Reanimator and only 1 match for Show and Tell; the rest of the list is not as effective at telling a narrative. My prior iterations of Maverick had a high favorability against S&T and Grixis Delver, but those two decks all but disappeared from my meta for a long time now. My prior trackers showed negative matchups against elves so even though its only over two games its still consistent with my past experience.

If I were to use my intuition instead of my current numbers the ranking would be as such.

Omnishow
Elves
TES
BR Reanimator
UB Reanimator
Death and Taxes
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Shardless Bug
ANT
Sneak and Show
Grixis Delver

I expanded the matchups that should be expanded due to how different the actual games are against them.

EDIT: Had them ranked in the wrong order, it is now fixed.

[Skizz]

isnt it easier to just make a list with a selection of sideboard cards to bring in against these decks?
everybody is maybe ranking matchups different.
kinda like:
Elves :
Best Cards: Zealous P, Toxic D, Ethersworn Canonist
Good Cards: Gaddock Teeg, Containment Priest
etc. etc.

[TMagpie]

isnt it easier to just make a list with a selection of sideboard cards to bring in against these decks?
everybody is maybe ranking matchups different.
kinda like:
Elves :
Best Cards: Zealous P, Toxic D, Ethersworn Canonist
Good Cards: Gaddock Teeg, Containment Priest
etc. etc.

Because it's about seeing which cards have the most impact versus which cards have the most relevance.

[Skizz]

Elves
BR Reanimator
Show and Tell
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Grixis Delver
Shardless Bug
Storm
Death and Taxes

[aspsnake]

Show and Tell
Elves
Grixis Delver
Death/Stoneblade Variants
BR Reanimator
Shardless Bug
Storm
Death and Taxes

[pettdan]

I'll chime in, even though I'm really unsure about the order here - feel free to ignore the list. I think the list depends on which version you play against and what sideboard cards you have, thus I have commented on the matchups and my reasoning and if anyone thinks I'm wrong somewhere I'd like to read your comments. E.g. I always play tutor+plague (lately even double plague) which is pretty good vs elves and tutor + leyline + RiP and pithing needle/-s which have been good vs reanimator.

Grixis Delver (w Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w Omni)
Storm(TES) / Elves
Shardless Bug
Grixis Delver (w/o Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w/o Omni)
BR Reanimator
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Death and Taxes

It's been a while since I played these decks, and I'm really unsure about the list - thus comments.

Grixis Delver should be an ok matchup, Choke can win it but if they play t2 Pyromancer and t3 Probe + Therapy the whole hand is gone and it's really difficult to come back. I tried Depths + Stage as a meta call in an important local tournament and it worked out, Knight can be hard for them to remove and similarly Marit Lage who they can't block many turns and have some difficulty in fighting. We have enough creatures to not worry about Diabolic Edict.

Show and Tell used to be a good matchup but Kozilek's return means all the hatebears die, unless we can put a sword/jitte with counters on them (and these are tempting to board out). Show into Omniscience can be troublesome but Canonist and Thalia with Qasali backup cab answer that. I'm trying Prelate now who answers all the problematic cards.

Storm and Elves feel pretty equal to me, but I usually play against TES which is quicker than ANT (a disadvantage for us, also they have Burning Wish which doubles as sweeper/win condition) and he knows I'm often on Maverick and by default Therapies t1 for Thalia if on the draw. Regarding Elves maybe it's worse than I feel but with Wasteland and plenty of removal it's often possible to delay their combo-wins, and that can buy time to get an active Jitte [edit: and/or Gaddock into play]. I don't feel like it's super bad, and post sideboard discard and engineered plague help out a lot in slowing the game down further to get Jitte online.

Blade decks - Thalia + Wasteland is ok, Deathrite gives further tempo advantage, StP takes their Deathrites and we have 6 Qasali + X decays to make sure they never get any equipment online. I feel like it's usually pretty ok. [edit: and Titania can swing the game and win quickly with an active KotR/Mother, Sigarda good too but easier to race with TNN, equipment etc]

Shardless - I didn't play against this deck for a long time but Thalia + Wasteland is great, we have a mana denial deck and they are very mana hungry. Also Sigarda or Titania usually wins the game. So as far as I remember starting out by StP-ing their Deathrite, following up with our own Deathrite/Thalia/Wasteland that they need to deal with and then playing KotR, untapping Knight and getting Cradle, tapping Cradle for a) GSZ for Titania/Sigarda, or b) playing, equipping and connecting with Jitte/Sword of F&I is a pretty good gameplan. With Choke being very good too. Still Deluge + Planeswalkers is a bit tough. Aura Shards was very good in this matchup since you just destroy all Strixes and Agents for free, you just need to answer their goyfs.

BR Reanimator - I feel slightly favored in this matchup, maybe that is wrong but if they don't have the super great start we have a lot of relevant 1 cmc-cards before and after boarding, and even when they have the great draw chances are I have my 1 of Leyline too (much less chance of course) or t1 tutor into t2 rest in peace. They have potentially great starts but are more vulnerable to mulligans while we have a lot of ways to answer their not blazing fast starts - and with leyline sometimes there is even the very easy wins. [edit: Pithing Needle on Griselbrand means an StP answers their entire gameplan, Karakas too to some extent]

Death and Taxes - we win the removal, the equipment and the topdeck battle and thus the game.

[TMagpie]

I'll chime in, even though I'm really unsure about the order here - feel free to ignore the list. I think the list depends on which version you play against and what sideboard cards you have, thus I have commented on the matchups and my reasoning and if anyone thinks I'm wrong somewhere I'd like to read your comments. E.g. I always play tutor+plague (lately even double plague) which is pretty good vs elves and tutor + leyline + RiP and pithing needle/-s which have been good vs reanimator.

Grixis Delver (w Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w Omni)
Storm(TES) / Elves
Shardless Bug
Grixis Delver (w/o Cabal T)
Show and Tell (w/o Omni)
BR Reanimator
Death/Stoneblade Variants
Death and Taxes

It's been a while since I played these decks, and I'm really unsure about the list - thus comments.

Grixis Delver should be an ok matchup, Choke can win it but if they play t2 Pyromancer and t3 Probe + Therapy the whole hand is gone and it's really difficult to come back. I tried Depths + Stage as a meta call in an important local tournament and it worked out, Knight can be hard for them to remove and similarly Marit Lage who they can't block many turns and have some difficulty in fighting. We have enough creatures to not worry about Diabolic Edict.

Show and Tell used to be a good matchup but Kozilek's return means all the hatebears die, unless we can put a sword/jitte with counters on them (and these are tempting to board out). Show into Omniscience can be troublesome but Canonist and Thalia with Qasali backup cab answer that. I'm trying Prelate now who answers all the problematic cards.

Storm and Elves feel pretty equal to me, but I usually play against TES which is quicker than ANT (a disadvantage for us, also they have Burning Wish which doubles as sweeper/win condition) and he knows I'm often on Maverick and by default Therapies t1 for Thalia if on the draw. Regarding Elves maybe it's worse than I feel but with Wasteland and plenty of removal it's often possible to delay their combo-wins, and that can buy time to get an active Jitte [edit: and/or Gaddock into play]. I don't feel like it's super bad, and post sideboard discard and engineered plague help out a lot in slowing the game down further to get Jitte online.

Blade decks - Thalia + Wasteland is ok, Deathrite gives further tempo advantage, StP takes their Deathrites and we have 6 Qasali + X decays to make sure they never get any equipment online. I feel like it's usually pretty ok. [edit: and Titania can swing the game and win quickly with an active KotR/Mother, Sigarda good too but easier to race with TNN, equipment etc]

Shardless - I didn't play against this deck for a long time but Thalia + Wasteland is great, we have a mana denial deck and they are very mana hungry. Also Sigarda or Titania usually wins the game. So as far as I remember starting out by StP-ing their Deathrite, following up with our own Deathrite/Thalia/Wasteland that they need to deal with and then playing KotR, untapping Knight and getting Cradle, tapping Cradle for a) GSZ for Titania/Sigarda, or b) playing, equipping and connecting with Jitte/Sword of F&I is a pretty good gameplan. With Choke being very good too. Still Deluge + Planeswalkers is a bit tough. Aura Shards was very good in this matchup since you just destroy all Strixes and Agents for free, you just need to answer their goyfs.

BR Reanimator - I feel slightly favored in this matchup, maybe that is wrong but if they don't have the super great start we have a lot of relevant 1 cmc-cards before and after boarding, and even when they have the great draw chances are I have my 1 of Leyline too (much less chance of course) or t1 tutor into t2 rest in peace. They have potentially great starts but are more vulnerable to mulligans while we have a lot of ways to answer their not blazing fast starts - and with leyline sometimes there is even the very easy wins. [edit: Pithing Needle on Griselbrand means an StP answers their entire gameplan, Karakas too to some extent]

Death and Taxes - we win the removal, the equipment and the topdeck battle and thus the game.

I'd like to chime in on your BR Reanimator comments as its relevant overall.

Oftentimes you need to know *what* advantages an opposing deck has and decide if the cards needed to answer it are worth the sideboard space. BR Reanimator, similar to TES, Belcher, and all the other fast combo lists often only wins because the have a fast turn 1 or turn 2 opening. For some of them, even a turn two combo is too slow. So you end up never needing sideboard cards because why sideboard for a card that will only be relevant in the opening hand?

So even if an opposing deck is super unfavored--its often better to not have sideboard hate for it at all if there isn't enough gains losing the sideboard slots.

As for your comment on Show and Tell *AND* TES--I find more and more that Prelate on 3 and 2 respectively often wins it.

[lavafrogg]

I'd like to chime in on your BR Reanimator comments as its relevant overall.

Oftentimes you need to know *what* advantages an opposing deck has and decide if the cards needed to answer it are worth the sideboard space. BR Reanimator, similar to TES, Belcher, and all the other fast combo lists often only wins because the have a fast turn 1 or turn 2 opening. For some of them, even a turn two combo is too slow. So you end up never needing sideboard cards because why sideboard for a card that will only be relevant in the opening hand?

So even if an opposing deck is super unfavored--its often better to not have sideboard hate for it at all if there isn't enough gains losing the sideboard slots.

As for your comment on Show and Tell *AND* TES--I find more and more that Prelate on 3 and 2 respectively often wins it.

#PrelateHype

[DoomRabbit]

#PrelateHype

Just came back from a 25 player tournament with 2 prelates main, 2 side in a pretty standard GWb list.
Felt pretty good overall, although the meta was mostly creatures, so I only got to prelate for value a couple of games.
I was expecting way more combo than there ended up being.

[solnox]

Just made it to the finals of the legacy challenge on maverick. I just put together the deck this week using TMagpie's list with a few budget replacements.

Went 8-2 in 10 rounds including Top8. Both losses were to elves including the finals.

[aspsnake]

Just came back from a 25 player tournament with 2 prelates main, 2 side in a pretty standard GWb list.
Felt pretty good overall, although the meta was mostly creatures, so I only got to prelate for value a couple of games.
I was expecting way more combo than there ended up being.

Congrats! Could you share your list please? :)

[DoomRabbit]

Congrats! Could you share your list please? :)

Sure:

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 27 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Sanctum Prelate

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 22 Land
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

I didn't do particularly well, 3-1-2, hindsight meta would have had me go back to two abrupt decays main, really needed the extra removal over combo stopping ability (which is what I assumed I needed going in).

[aspsnake]

Sure:

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 27 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Sanctum Prelate

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 22 Land
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith


// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate

// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay

// 4 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Council's Judgment

I didn't do particularly well, 3-1-2, hindsight meta would have had me go back to two abrupt decays main, really needed the extra removal over combo stopping ability (which is what I assumed I needed going in).

I see, Decays are pretty useful, agreed. And sometimes (e.g. mirror, D&T) there is just no good number for Prelate to name that doesn't affect you too.

What about the sideboard ones, were they as useful? I'm currently thinking whether I want to squeeze a couple of them in, probably instead of a Pithing Needle and a Maelstrom Pulse.

P.S. Do you really think that we still need a second Teeg in sb, since Miracles are gone?

[pettdan]

I played in a local tournament today, higher stakes than the weekly event but slightly less players at something like 26-28.

I played the same list as DoomRabbit but +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Titania [edit: +1 Renegade Rallier] and -1 Mother, -1 KotR, -1 Noble Hierarch. Sideboard quite different. I'll just give a few brief comments.

SB:
1 Golgari Charm (to regenerate hatebears vs combo decks, also a sweeper, more comments below)
1 Engineered Plague
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress (I've lost a lot of games vs UR Delver, also Burn has been prevalent)
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation (see above comment, also good vs Storm)
1 Containment Priest (I added it for some extra game vs Elves and Big Red etc)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker (I want a second card after Needle vs Walking Ballista, but Revoker works vs Storm hence the split)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace (glad to have had this today, though I managed to dodge the multiple lands players)
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Choke

I expected a lot of Storm, Infect some Elves and maybe some Lands and Sneak 'n Show as well as probably two thirds fair stuff. I was hoping the Prelates would swing the unfair games to my advantage, didn't meet too much of that. Prelate on 4 was relevant in the Elves matchup, they died quickly vs Czech Pile who play a lot of removal and with varied CMC's and in the other games I didn't see them. Another deck building choice for today was to sideboard Golgari Charm since I realized (or rather, I was reminded by another thread) that it's very good at protecting our hatebears vs sweepers, especially I think of Kozilek's Return that I run into all the time, while also clearing goblin tokens or Sneak Attack/Blood Moon in the same combo matchups. It's a much worse sweeper though. In the end I only experienced the downsides, I had to destroy 4 of my own creatures vs Elves to do the same to the opponent so Zealous Persecutions / Engineered Plague would have been better today in this slot [edit: or actually, two of my creatures that died were Deathrites at 0/1 due to Plague, so a second Plague would have still destroyed two of my creatures]. Still I like the idea of regenerating all hatebears.

R1: Grixis Delver (no Therapies, not sure it matters but still). G1 he drew well and the game looked lost (Bolt my t1 Mother, Daze Thalia, Waste my black mana source, FoW my second Thalia, Delver, Bolt my Qasali, Deathrite, Gurmag. Staring down a Gurmag, Deathrite and Delver with not so much life I get Scryb Ranger and then Jitte and can turn it around. Scryb Ranger's flying and protection from blue was great today.

This match: 2-0. Matches in total: 1-0. Games in total: 2-0
---

R2: Belcher 1-2. Losing the dice roll was bad, also I mulliganed for discard but couldn't find it in G2 and G3. Won G2 when he had a slow start. I had t1 Pithing Needle for Belcher in G2, but he got the belcher win t1 in G3.

This match: 1-2. Matches in total: 1-1. Games in total: 3-2
---

R3: Czech Pile / BUGr control 2-1. Mana denial won 2 games, and in one of them he played three cantrips and only found two lands throughout the game. Choke was great.

This match: 2-1. Matches in total: 2-1. Games in total: 5-3
---

R4: BUG Delver with Stifles and Hymns, 0-2. G1 I think a TNN went the distance. In G2 I didn't draw too well and a Liliana of the Last hope with a Strix that he could replay thanks to Liliana prevented me from interacting. I tried to waste him out before that but he commented that he drew all lands but 1 this game, so that wasn't very successful. I was really waiting for equipment in game 2, I just had to crash all my creatures into his Strix to try to deal with the Liliana.

This match: 0-2. Matches in total: 2-2. Games in total: 5-5
---

R5: Elves 0-2. We were already out of contention for top 8 at 2-2 but played it out. G1 I think I StP'ed his t1 mana dork but if I'd kept it for the Symbiote I could have connected with the Jitte in my starting hand. T3 GSZ for Gaddock kept GSZ and Natural Order away but after replaying the Visionary a few turns he could hardcast Craterhoof. G2 was really strange and we both draw pretty bad, I did get Engineered Plague into play and eventually a Jitte, he Reclamation Saged to destroy the Jitte and then after 5-8 rounds of staring at each others nonexistant armies he Glimpsed three times and drew half the deck off his 0/0 elves, he managed to find 5-6 creatures that survived and thanks to the two Cradle activations he achieved he could Craterhoof for the win.

This match: 0-2. Matches in total: 2-3. Games in total: 5-7

Conclusion: will do more testing of Prelates.

[DoomRabbit]

I see, Decays are pretty useful, agreed. And sometimes (e.g. mirror, D&T) there is just no good number for Prelate to name that doesn't affect you too.

What about the sideboard ones, were they as useful? I'm currently thinking whether I want to squeeze a couple of them in, probably instead of a Pithing Needle and a Maelstrom Pulse.

P.S. Do you really think that we still need a second Teeg in sb, since Miracles are gone?

I quite liked the 2-2 split. When they're good, they're very good, and hitting them is a pretty big play, and when they're bad, they're pretty bad.
So game 2-3 on you should have the perfect number in the deck, and game one is a hedge.

For Gaddock teeg, I'm not sure. He plays a pretty similar role to prelates, but has some downsides for us too, question becomes how important is it to blank 4 and up instead of just 4?
If the answer is just 4, then is the fact that he's much easier to cast, and is GSZable enough of an advantage to still run him over prelate.


On another note, had a bunch of friends come back from a big tournament in the Netherlands and say that the meta was Elves Elves Elves and ANT and SnS.
Big thalia is pretty great against two of those decks, but is she better than prelate in that meta?

[TMagpie]

I quite liked the 2-2 split. When they're good, they're very good, and hitting them is a pretty big play, and when they're bad, they're pretty bad.
So game 2-3 on you should have the perfect number in the deck, and game one is a hedge.

For Gaddock teeg, I'm not sure. He plays a pretty similar role to prelates, but has some downsides for us too, question becomes how important is it to blank 4 and up instead of just 4?
If the answer is just 4, then is the fact that he's much easier to cast, and is GSZable enough of an advantage to still run him over prelate.


On another note, had a bunch of friends come back from a big tournament in the Netherlands and say that the meta was Elves Elves Elves and ANT and SnS.
Big thalia is pretty great against two of those decks, but is she better than prelate in that meta?

The biggest draw to Teeg is Prelate + Teeg...

[pettdan]

The biggest draw to Teeg is Prelate + Teeg...

And the GSZ-ability, 1 Gaddock is easier to find than 4 Prelates.

Edit: Which DoomRabbit just said. Having some consistency in finding Gaddock is very important.

[DoomRabbit]

The biggest draw to Teeg is Prelate + Teeg...

Yes, I think we never cut one for the other, finding the balance between the two is the key.

[montoy]

hi new mav player here, was a junk player but trying to switch decks for the moment.
have tested this much yet.
went with the DD thespian as an alternative kill here.

most list i see there are 25+ creatures
and no maze...
do you think this list has to much removal?

will post results on how this build turns out soon. (",)

thanks

25 LANDS
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith

22 CREATURES
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage

10 INSTANT & SORCERIES
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 OTHERS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

15 SIDEBOARDS
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm

[Cheesehead]

Hi all,

I am new to the Forums and never played Legacy before (modern Player).

I want to start playing Legacy and Maverick is the deck of my choice.

Can somebody post me a decklist for a Burn, BUG and B/R Reanimator meta?

Is it possible to go with GW instead of GWb? Since I have to buy 70% of the cards it would be good if I could start with GW and buy Bayou, Scrubland later.. (I have 3 Noble Hierarchs, Wastelands, Jitte, fetchlands already..)

Thank you guys!

Best regards

[aspsnake]

hi new mav player here, was a junk player but trying to switch decks for the moment.
have tested this much yet.
went with the DD thespian as an alternative kill here.

most list i see there are 25+ creatures
and no maze...
do you think this list has to much removal?

will post results on how this build turns out soon. (",)

thanks

25LANDS
1Forest
1Plains
1Swamp
2Bayou
2Savannah
1Scrubland
1Marsh Flats
3Verdant Catacombs
4Windswept Heath
4Windswept Heath
1Dryad Arbor
1Karakas
1Thespian's Stage
1Dark Depths
1Maze of Ith

22CREATURES
3Mother of Runes
2Stoneforge Mystic
3Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3Dark Confidant
3Deathrite Shaman
1Scavenging Ooze
1Gaddock Teeg
4Knight of the Reliquary
1Qasali Pridemage

10INSTANT & SORCERIES
3Green Sun's Zenith
3Swords to Plowshares
3Abrupt Decay
1Maelstrom Pulse

3OTHERS
1Sword of Fire and Ice
1Umezawa's Jitte
1Sylvan Library

15SIDEBOARDS
2Pithing Needle
1Bojuka Bog
1Choke
3Thoughtseize
1Chains of Mephistopheles
1Faerie Macabre
2Surgical Extraction
1Toxic Deluge
1Containment Priest
1Ethersworn Canonist
1Golgari Charm

Junk comes to Legacy from a different perspective than Maverick. As Junk, you are trying to quickly outvalue other players (Tarmogoyf, Hymn etc). Maverick has a completely different strategy: we don't really want to outvalue anybody, instead we want to screw up our opponents' game plans. And then beat them up with fair creatures. And the faster we do that, the better. This is why e.g. Thalia is our best friend in many games: 2 mana Brainstorm after a Wasteland is just way too expensive. I would recommend playing 4-of.

I don't think that in the current meta Maze is so amazing. Almost every deck that we might possibly want a Maze against is playing Wastelands, and is literally useless in many matches where we struggle. I don't think that right now it deserves a spot in our 75.

Golgari Charm: has more options than Zealous Persecutions, but there are so many games where we don't want to kill our Moms, Dryad Arbor and Thalias. I honestly don't like it.
3 swords - 3 decays - Pulse: way too expensive, don't forget that we're running Thalia and vs D&T your Pulse may easily go to 5 mana. Put it in sb and play 4 Swords and 2 Decays, these are the best removal we have.

Dark Confidant: this is an awesome card for Junk, and an awful card for Maverick. I understand that from your perspective, it's awesome. But it simply doesn't add to our strategy. It doesn't disrupt our opponents' game, and is simply not good enough for a slot. It is simply just not a hatebear. After a successful Thalia+Wasteland performance, it doesn't really matter how many cards you have in your hands, your opponent will need turns to really come back from it. On top of it, it's another creature that dies to Golgari Charm-like sweepers that we mostly try to survive with minimum casualties.

Mother of Runes: this is one of our best cards, we really want 4 (although, as you are running the combo, you may replace the 4th one with a Sylvan Safekeeper, this guy is brutal as he can protect our 20/20 token from literally anything but Terminus, and the latter is gone for good).

Manadorks: I like running 5 manadorks, not counting Arbor in. But 4 is the very minimum, Deathrite Shamans are so good that should be 4 automatically.

Scryb Ranger: this humble Faerie doesn't look that way from a first glance, but is very strong. It just allows to activate our strongest creatures that wins us the game - Knight, Mother & Deathrite several times a turn, produces mana when we're out of land drops, protects our Savannah/Bayou from Wasteland, flies, with Mom stops opponents' flyers (delver, marit lage, strix, flickerwisp, etc.) and breaks glaring non-flying standoffs, especially well with an equipment. This is the only flyer creature we get (unless we run a Birds), and it has won we countless games. Don't forget that we can Zenith for it, so we virtually play 5 of these.

Green Sun: this card is ridiculously good in our deck, always run 4.

Creature count (22) you are running is low. I would recommend looking at 25-26 for Maverick.

I understand that some of my comments might seem counter-intuitive from a Junk player's perspective, but give it a try. Once you "feel" how the deck works, you will understand that it is an optimal configuration.


Hi all,

I am new to the Forums and never played Legacy before (modern Player).

I want to start playing Legacy and Maverick is the deck of my choice.

Can somebody post me a decklist for a Burn, BUG and B/R Reanimator meta?

Is it possible to go with GW instead of GWb? Since I have to buy 70% of the cards it would be good if I could start with GW and buy Bayou, Scrubland later.. (I have 3 Noble Hierarchs, Wastelands, Jitte, fetchlands already..)

Thank you guys!

Best regards

Welcome to Legacy!

Maverick is not an easy deck to pilot, but it provides lots of fun and is very rewarding for good plays.
You can certainly play without black, but it will hurt a lot your combo matchups (especially Elves, Storm etc.) If your meta is low on combo, cutting black might be even an advantage (more basics, stable manabase etc.).

You can start with something like this: https://deckstats.net/deck-13131868-4a0e9fa246bbe5385220bf99c2660b5f.html.
Sideboard Orim's Chant and Needles at least give you a chance to survive until Thalia vs fast combo decks. These are not as good as Thoughtseize, but this is your price for cutting black :) If your meta has more combo decks than you thought, more Orim's Chants and some Mindbreak Traps could help too. And you might want to try to fit a Faerie Macabre in sb if B/R Reanimators are going hard on you.

If Burn is a big thing in your meta, what you could also try is 3-4 sideboard Leyline of Sanctity - this also helps against Storm a lot, especially since nowadays they use Abrupt Decays as a tool to solve problems rather than e.g. an oldschool Chain of Vapor.

[montoy]

thanks for the detailed insight aspsnake!!
you were right on the spot where i was still thinking of junk.
also i feel totally naked not running LOTV and thoughtseize MB hahaha... but ill get used to that.

i didn't realize the power of the scryb.

so its something like GSZ replaces bob...something like that...

as for the maze... the meta at my place is infested with eldrazi and BR fatties...
though KOTR is usually larger than eldrazi...considering this as a flexible spot.

considering the birds (",)

all else fails we still have the 20/20 panic button.

thanks again for the comments really appreciate it.



Junk comes to Legacy from a different perspective than Maverick. As Junk, you are trying to quickly outvalue other players (Tarmogoyf, Hymn etc). Maverick has a completely different strategy: we don't really want to outvalue anybody, instead we want to screw up our opponents' game plans. And then beat them up with fair creatures. And the faster we do that, the better. This is why e.g. Thalia is our best friend in many games: 2 mana Brainstorm after a Wasteland is just way too expensive. I would recommend playing 4-of.

I don't think that in the current meta Maze is so amazing. Almost every deck that we might possibly want a Maze against is playing Wastelands, and is literally useless in many matches where we struggle. I don't think that right now it deserves a spot in our 75.

Golgari Charm: has more options than Zealous Persecutions, but there are so many games where we don't want to kill our Moms, Dryad Arbor and Thalias. I honestly don't like it.
3 swords - 3 decays - Pulse: way too expensive, don't forget that we're running Thalia and vs D&T your Pulse may easily go to 5 mana. Put it in sb and play 4 Swords and 2 Decays, these are the best removal we have.

Dark Confidant: this is an awesome card for Junk, and an awful card for Maverick. I understand that from your perspective, it's awesome. But it simply doesn't add to our strategy. It doesn't disrupt our opponents' game, and is simply not good enough for a slot. It is simply just not a hatebear. After a successful Thalia+Wasteland performance, it doesn't really matter how many cards you have in your hands, your opponent will need turns to really come back from it. On top of it, it's another creature that dies to Golgari Charm-like sweepers that we mostly try to survive with minimum casualties.

Mother of Runes: this is one of our best cards, we really want 4 (although, as you are running the combo, you may replace the 4th one with a Sylvan Safekeeper, this guy is brutal as he can protect our 20/20 token from literally anything but Terminus, and the latter is gone for good).

Manadorks: I like running 5 manadorks, not counting Arbor in. But 4 is the very minimum, Deathrite Shamans are so good that should be 4 automatically.

Scryb Ranger: this humble Faerie doesn't look that way from a first glance, but is very strong. It just allows to activate our strongest creatures that wins us the game - Knight, Mother & Deathrite several times a turn, produces mana when we're out of land drops, protects our Savannah/Bayou from Wasteland, flies, with Mom stops opponents' flyers (delver, marit lage, strix, flickerwisp, etc.) and breaks glaring non-flying standoffs, especially well with an equipment. This is the only flyer creature we get (unless we run a Birds), and it has won we countless games. Don't forget that we can Zenith for it, so we virtually play 5 of these.

Green Sun: this card is ridiculously good in our deck, always run 4.

Creature count (22) you are running is low. I would recommend looking at 25-26 for Maverick.

I understand that some of my comments might seem counter-intuitive from a Junk player's perspective, but give it a try. Once you "feel" how the deck works, you will understand that it is an optimal configuration.

[BeTeP]

Im wonder - can we play oldstyle maverick in new meta? Something like DNT, but with strong green cards: knight, ooze, teeg, scryb. We can use recruter instead gsz for searching singeltons.

Something like that:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial

3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary

What do you think? Is it competitive or not? Is it worth to run it or we need just to pilot DNT or traditional build with gsz?

[calcymon]

Im wonder - can we play oldstyle maverick in new meta? Something like DNT, but with strong green cards: knight, ooze, teeg, scryb. We can use recruter instead gsz for searching singeltons.


What do you think? Is it competitive or not? Is it worth to run it or we need just to pilot DNT or traditional build with gsz?


yes , it works well

an old example :
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15184&d=292092&f=LE

probably not with many recluiters, probably 1-2

[Warden]

I've played both and will say either is capable of winning.
The oversimplified question to ask yourself is whether you want a strong early game or strong mid/late game. Vial's early sequencing is usually a nice escalation of cc's and threats. Zenith tries to establish mana early and plop finishers late. Zenith is unquestionably better down the stretch than vial (especially topdeck mode). The way lists are configured, Zenith shells care more about 3 drops than vial. You're more dependent upon turn 1 dork/ramp into turn 2 three drop.

However, the utility creatures work better IMO when you can do vial tricks and/or ruin your own mana base with minimal consequence. The earlier Viciano Maverick lists still pack surprises the average player doesn't expect. The lines of play are much more intricate than any contemporary list. Vial at a certain point just laughs at reducing its mana output because playing and hurling wastelands at the opponent don't stop you from playing additional threats. I do not get that same feeling from GSZ. Zenith needs mana (Im a Cradle person when running zenith).

Vial also has the upside of making it easy to run non-green dudes. You're DnT with a few lateral adjustments. Running something like say, Bob, is much easier in vial IMO. With Zenith you need to muck up the lands you run to ensure you have b to cast Bob. Vial itself doesn't care about color and Cavern/DRS more than accommodate his inclusion.

Vial's shell is very DnT driven: 4 vial, 4 mom, 3-4 Thalia, 7 SFM package, 2 recruiter, 3-4 KotR, 4 stp, 4 wasteland.
Zenith shell: 4 GSZ, 1 arbor, 5 dork, 4 mom, 3-4 Thalia, 1 teeg, 2 QPM, 4 KotR, 4 stp, 4 wasteland, 1 cradle, 4 SFM package

[aspsnake]

Im wonder - can we play oldstyle maverick in new meta? Something like DNT, but with strong green cards: knight, ooze, teeg, scryb. We can use recruter instead gsz for searching singeltons.

Something like that:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial

3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary

What do you think? Is it competitive or not? Is it worth to run it or we need just to pilot DNT or traditional build with gsz?

I've been playing Vial Maverick before the top banning with some relative success. I found Recruiter to be too slow to be played, but Tireless Trackers work wonderfully: they can e.g. be vialed in a table with an active knight to find a Gaea's Cradle, drop a fetch and draw 3+ cards outright, they compensate a lot for the loss of GSZ.
Compared to Recruiters, Trackers can be biiiig :)

Here's the list that I've been playing: https://deckstats.net/deck-13149794-22996782ead2df9b05e351f0fd747bb3.html

Keep in mind though that this is pre-top-banning list, and it is quite optimized to play vs Miracles, so slight adjustments (e.g., sword of L&S should be probably replaced by a batterskull and +1 mystic should be added, cavern should be replaced by a basic land etc.) are required.

From my experience, vial list performs better vs creature-based decks: goblins, merfolks, d&t, elves, RUG delvers etc, especially with vial in the opening hand; I think it is also slightly better vs certain combo decks such as show&tell, mainly due to the mainboard prelates.

However, it but lacks the power of GSZ vs resource-exhausting decks that go into topdeck mode, such as pox, 4-color control, BUG delver and such.

[BeTeP]

Fist thing - thank you guys for reply.

If we watch Magic Online meta, than it is clear that now we have 3 big contenders: grixis tempo, ant and sneak. My thought was to build maverick to answer these decks. And i think that vial maverick have edge in that matchups.
Sure thing that manabase need a single Cradle, it works very well with equipments and ooze. Good point, thank you. Maybe deck can use some confidants, it looks interesting. But i dont know what to cut.

I dont test recruters in the deck, in theorycrafting it looks good. But if you say it is slow, i got it. From my point of view vial maverick main edge is in use of Gaddock Teeg (he is better than prelate vs combo decks). Prelate on 1 or 2 can be beaten by ant or tes, but teeg in first game is like gg. Teeg also stops jace, sneak and fow. And finally - it shines in bloody mathup: elves. No more gsz or order! So - why do we need to run prelate instead of teeg in vial version?
Im understand that in sneak or omni match prelate on 3 is very good, but teeg usually do better things in other matches.
Too bad if recruter is too slow. I know that gsz version have some KA, but in vial version all we have - library. So i think that recruters can give some advantage, but need to test that to know for sure - is it worth it or no.

[Luthiereisfun]

Fist thing - thank you guys for reply.

If we watch Magic Online meta, than it is clear that now we have 3 big contenders: grixis tempo, ant and sneak. My thought was to build maverick to answer these decks. And i think that vial maverick have edge in that matchups.
Sure thing that manabase need a single Cradle, it works very well with equipments and ooze. Good point, thank you. Maybe deck can use some confidants, it looks interesting. But i dont know what to cut.

I dont test recruters in the deck, in theorycrafting it looks good. But if you say it is slow, i got it. From my point of view vial maverick main edge is in use of Gaddock Teeg (he is better than prelate vs combo decks). Prelate on 1 or 2 can be beaten by ant or tes, but teeg in first game is like gg. Teeg also stops jace, sneak and fow. And finally - it shines in bloody mathup: elves. No more gsz or order! So - why do we need to run prelate instead of teeg in vial version?
Im understand that in sneak or omni match prelate on 3 is very good, but teeg usually do better things in other matches.
Too bad if recruter is too slow. I know that gsz version have some KA, but in vial version all we have - library. So i think that recruters can give some advantage, but need to test that to know for sure - is it worth it or no.

I agree that teeg is very good against combo like storm/elves but that's why I would make the case for GSZ over vial. Imo you just have a much better chance of actually getting Teeg online in the GSZ version. I think Prelate is a house against SnS and can be really good against Delver so I think that running copies of Prelate in a GSZ build is good. Plus GSZ allows more T1 ramp to try and get Prelate online T2.

Recruiter As others have said is just to slow in my opinion. At best we go into T1 ramp > T2 recruiter T3>*creature(hatebear)*

With GSZ you're faster and getting teeg online T2 against decks like elves and storm is a big deal.

I I think Vial has its merits, but everytime I played it I felt like I rather just play DnT

[Warden]

I agree that teeg is very good against combo like storm/elves but that's why I would make the case for GSZ over vial. Imo you just have a much better chance of actually getting Teeg online in the GSZ version. I think Prelate is a house against SnS and can be really good against Delver so I think that running copies of Prelate in a GSZ build is good. Plus GSZ allows more T1 ramp to try and get Prelate online T2.

Recruiter As others have said is just to slow in my opinion. At best we go into T1 ramp > T2 recruiter T3>*creature(hatebear)*

With GSZ you're faster and getting teeg online T2 against decks like elves and storm is a big deal.

I I think Vial has its merits, but everytime I played it I felt like I rather just play DnT

The first part about Teeg fitting better into Zenith is correct.

I think you're misunderstanding how to play Recruiter. You hold back on casting her -- she's next to last on my hierarchy unless I need *insert creature* immediately. Recruiter is functionally GSZ 5 and 6 for a creature of any color (restricted to what recruiter digs for) that always costs 2W. The odds Teeg comes out t2 via GSZ are extremely low (double dork + cradle + gsz)**.

My opening progression of t1-t2-t3 usually does not involve recruiter if I can help it. I do the usual dork, mom, thalia, kotr with spot removal. Recruiter isn't so high on the list. But at t4 and beyond, she's never a dead draw. Let's not forget how strong she is in Vial lists --> where you can play her, the target, or both off vial. This is why I feel she's part of the vial shell. She fits in so easily and synergizes with that build's inner strategy.

EDIT:**It's possible to play Teeg naturally or ensure you can cast him via turn 1 GSZ @ 0 for Arbor, but I'm looking at "Teeg is not in hand"

[Luthiereisfun]

The first part about Teeg fitting better into Zenith is correct.

I think you're misunderstanding how to play Recruiter. You hold back on casting her -- she's next to last on my hierarchy unless I need *insert creature* immediately. Recruiter is functionally GSZ 5 and 6 for a creature of any color (restricted to what recruiter digs for) that always costs 2W. The odds Teeg comes out t2 via GSZ are extremely low (double dork + cradle + gsz)**.

My opening progression of t1-t2-t3 usually does not involve recruiter if I can help it. I do the usual dork, mom, thalia, kotr with spot removal. Recruiter isn't so high on the list. But at t4 and beyond, she's never a dead draw. Let's not forget how strong she is in Vial lists --> where you can play her, the target, or both off vial. This is why I feel she's part of the vial shell. She fits in so easily and synergizes with that build's inner strategy.

EDIT:**It's possible to play Teeg naturally or ensure you can cast him via turn 1 GSZ @ 0 for Arbor, but I'm looking at "Teeg is not in hand"

I should have clarified. I am referring to the difference of GSZ vs Recruiter and when you want to be tutoring/dropping down a hatebear. My point was basically that with GSZ you can get down a card like Teeg a turn faster which I think is relevant.

In other MU and general gameplan I am completely on board with how you are deploying Recruiter. I also 100 percent agree about Recruiter in a Vial shell. In fact, I think if you're dropping GSZ for Recruiter you need to be playing Vial.

[tescrin]

The odds Teeg comes out t2 via Recruiter are extremely low (double dork + cradle + Recruiter)**.

While I know Warden knows his Shite, i figured clarification on the obvious would be good. T2 Teeg via GSZ (or natural) is probably ~40% chance (as it's probably 70+% to have acceleration [4 + 4 + 2ish], and ~40 for GSZ, and then there's natural teeg.)

From the junk mindset, and my recent playing with KotR in bant, i find it curious Goyf has never replaced him and Mav could just accept it's licks against Sneakshow/Reanimator while having a much much faster clock against most decks. I get that KotR can get big, but my recent playing with DRSs everywhere eating my lands has me down on the guy a bit.

That said, he won me a game or two against infect and lands due to wasteland-repeater action.


EDIT: @whoever was new
I hear you on Lily, i ran her for a couple years in *literally every deck I played* as a 3-4 of. The constant protection against combo, untargetable dudes, etc. feels pretty good. But so did $300+. Getting off that crutch really helps the brewing/willingness to play decks/colors.

[timmyod17]

The odds Teeg comes out t2 via GSZ are extremely low (double dork + cradle + gsz)**.


EDIT:**It's possible to play Teeg naturally or ensure you can cast him via turn 1 GSZ @ 0 for Arbor, but I'm looking at "Teeg is not in hand"

I'm confused by what you mean. You can easily GSZ for Teeg on T2. All you need is a T1 mana creature and both your land drops. GSZ with X=2 gets Teeg and you get your free win.

[Luthiereisfun]

I get that the odds of a T2 teeg off GSZ are low but it's possible. With vial/Recruiter it's not possible and part of what I am after is redundancy post sb of having as many ways to have a disruptive T2 hatebear. Recruiter gives me even less of a chance.

Edit: goyf isn't very good in a deck where you play permanents. He'd be much better in a junk list that's casting more spells and discard.

[TMagpie]

While I know Warden knows his Shite, i figured clarification on the obvious would be good. T2 Teeg via GSZ (or natural) is probably ~40% chance (as it's probably 70+% to have acceleration [4 + 4 + 2ish], and ~40 for GSZ, and then there's natural teeg.)

From the junk mindset, and my recent playing with KotR in bant, i find it curious Goyf has never replaced him and Mav could just accept it's licks against Sneakshow/Reanimator while having a much much faster clock against most decks. I get that KotR can get big, but my recent playing with DRSs everywhere eating my lands has me down on the guy a bit.

That said, he won me a game or two against infect and lands due to wasteland-repeater action.


EDIT: @whoever was new
I hear you on Lily, i ran her for a couple years in *literally every deck I played* as a 3-4 of. The constant protection against combo, untargetable dudes, etc. feels pretty good. But so did $300+. Getting off that crutch really helps the brewing/willingness to play decks/colors.

Being big is the least important aspect of Knight of the Reliquary. If you're primarily using Knight for it's size--then it would be better to run Goyf.

[Warden]

I should have clarified. I am referring to the difference of GSZ vs Recruiter and when you want to be tutoring/dropping down a hatebear. My point was basically that with GSZ you can get down a card like Teeg a turn faster which I think is relevant.

In other MU and general gameplan I am completely on board with how you are deploying Recruiter. I also 100 percent agree about Recruiter in a Vial shell. In fact, I think if you're dropping GSZ for Recruiter you need to be playing Vial.

Oh I'm so sorry I misunderstood!


While I know Warden knows his Shite, i figured clarification on the obvious would be good. T2 Teeg via GSZ (or natural) is probably ~40% chance (as it's probably 70+% to have acceleration [4 + 4 + 2ish], and ~40 for GSZ, and then there's natural teeg.)

From the junk mindset, and my recent playing with KotR in bant, i find it curious Goyf has never replaced him and Mav could just accept it's licks against Sneakshow/Reanimator while having a much much faster clock against most decks. I get that KotR can get big, but my recent playing with DRSs everywhere eating my lands has me down on the guy a bit.

That said, he won me a game or two against infect and lands due to wasteland-repeater action.


EDIT: @whoever was new
I hear you on Lily, i ran her for a couple years in *literally every deck I played* as a 3-4 of. The constant protection against combo, untargetable dudes, etc. feels pretty good. But so did $300+. Getting off that crutch really helps the brewing/willingness to play decks/colors.

LOL thanks. Yeah I brain-farted and typed the wrong word. But I also got confused with what was being said. He comes out 1 turn faster, assuming you have the prerequisites of 1 dork, 2 lands, and a zenith in the opening 8 cards.

I'm still mulling around an updated post-top list but here is what I top 8'ed with a few months ago. 60th card is 3rd Thalia 1.0
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22761&iddeck=176020

My notes talk about Ghost Quarter bring insane. I think I could make 4 waste 2 GQ happen.
2 Recruiter replace Revokers immediately. Not sure if I trade out QPM for Flickerwisps. Singleton Rallier was solid. It's possible to abuse him further but you need Scryb and fetches to do so.

[TMagpie]

Oh I'm so sorry I misunderstood!



LOL thanks. Yeah I brain-farted and typed the wrong word. But I also got confused with what was being said. He comes out 1 turn faster, assuming you have the prerequisites of 1 dork, 2 lands, and a zenith in the opening 8 cards.

I'm still mulling around an updated post-top list but here is what I top 8'ed with a few months ago. 60th card is 3rd Thalia 1.0
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22761&iddeck=176020

My notes talk about Ghost Quarter bring insane. I think I could make 4 waste 2 GQ happen.
2 Recruiter replace Revokers immediately. Not sure if I trade out QPM for Flickerwisps. Singleton Rallier was solid. It's possible to abuse him further but you need Scryb and fetches to do so.

The Teeg math vs combo is not meant to complicated.

If you run 2 Teeg, even if you have no Teeg/Zenith in your hand, you will have 6/52 chance of drawing Teeg/GSZ, 10/52 chance of drawing Teeg/GSZ/Thalia, and even more if you run Prelate.

The reason for this is because turn 1 mana dork allows 3 mana on turn two increasing substantially the number of live draws you have as opposed to either Recruiter OR Aether Vial which needs substantially more time before they provide you live draws.

[tescrin]

My notes talk about Ghost Quarter bring insane. I think I could make 4 waste 2 GQ happen.

That'd be neat. I'm still waiting for a non-Eldrazi deck to run Warping Wail due to running a bunch of colorless. I think a Grove/Pfire deck with wastelands could do it. Maybe you can start moving that direction a bit. I personally think Wail is pretty slick, but can't find a list I'd like with enough colorless sources to do it.

[TMagpie]

That'd be neat. I'm still waiting for a non-Eldrazi deck to run Warping Wail due to running a bunch of colorless. I think a Grove/Pfire deck with wastelands could do it. Maybe you can start moving that direction a bit. I personally think Wail is pretty slick, but can't find a list I'd like with enough colorless sources to do it.

D&T running 4 Wasteland 4 Port 2 Cavern of Souls

[Warden]

That'd be neat. I'm still waiting for a non-Eldrazi deck to run Warping Wail due to running a bunch of colorless. I think a Grove/Pfire deck with wastelands could do it. Maybe you can start moving that direction a bit. I personally think Wail is pretty slick, but can't find a list I'd like with enough colorless sources to do it.

I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.

@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).

[TMagpie]

I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.

@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).

Would you trim a KotR for a Recruiter of the Guard? (Assuming a vial list)

[Warden]

Would you trim a KotR for a Recruiter of the Guard? (Assuming a vial list)

I'm open to it. It might even be the superior call. But out of personal experience, I'd prefer running 61/4 knights > 60/3 knights. She's never a bad call in my books.
The only thing that would really convince me to drop down to 3 KotR would be jamming KotR/Recruiter/Flickerwisp in a 60 card deck. I think the curve just blows up at some point and you can't run 12+ threedrops (equipment factored in here as well).

[ET1]

Won my LGS' win a dual event this week. Played a pretty typical list, I had been trying to test sanctum prelate, but never actually cast it so I dropped it tonight for the 2nd qasali pridemage.

Match-ups
Aggro Loam 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1 - had a very grueling grindy game 3 where I eventually won with a jitte, thalia, and pridemage. Drew very poorly that whole game as well, lucky that my opponent did not draw very well either.
UWr Stoneblade 2-1 - Sword of Light and Shadow did work here. Fire and Ice was very good here as well. Main challenge is grinding through snap + swords
Sneak n Show (Omni version) 2-0 - Had an early knight, my opponent was on the sneak attack plan and karakas was able to keep an emrakul at bay. Game 2 my opponent missed a land drop and tapped out for a sneak attack which was met with a pridemage.

Still playing a pretty typical DNeeley list, and I do still believe that Green Sun's Zenith is far better than aether vial.

Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Containment Priest

[aspsnake]

Won my LGS' win a dual event this week. Played a pretty typical list, I had been trying to test sanctum prelate, but never actually cast it so I dropped it tonight for the 2nd qasali pridemage.

Match-ups
Aggro Loam 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1 - had a very grueling grindy game 3 where I eventually won with a jitte, thalia, and pridemage. Drew very poorly that whole game as well, lucky that my opponent did not draw very well either.
UWr Stoneblade 2-1 - Sword of Light and Shadow did work here. Fire and Ice was very good here as well. Main challenge is grinding through snap + swords
Sneak n Show (Omni version) 2-0 - Had an early knight, my opponent was on the sneak attack plan and karakas was able to keep an emrakul at bay. Game 2 my opponent missed a land drop and tapped out for a sneak attack which was met with a pridemage.

Still playing a pretty typical DNeeley list, and I do still believe that Green Sun's Zenith is far better than aether vial.

Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Containment Priest
Which cards do you find mvp in the Stoneblade matchup? I found that 4x fishes in one deck can give quite a headache.

Therefore, interesting question: what do you think of good old engineered plague in sb? It helps with lots of stuff, from tribal decks (elves, goblins, d&t, merfolks etc.) to fishes, tokens from mentor, pyromancer or lingering souls or, worst case, make e.g. a stoneforge 0/1 so they couldn't charge jitte.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[aspsnake]

I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.

@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).

I don't think that anybody here argues that Recruiter is bad, not at all.
The issue with Recruiter is that while we are trying to make our deck faster, he is slow.
He is rather bad vs combo decks as he gives them a turn to combo out or adjust their strategy to the upcoming hatebear.
He is rather bad vs fair decks, as, once again, unless it's lategame you are giving them a turn. Are you grabbing a Qasali to destroy that Jitte? Bad news bud, next turn it will be already charged and will kill your moms (possibly with a Flickerwisp setup to save Jitte). Are you grabbing a Mirran Crusader to come through a bunch of tarmogoyfs? I think your opponent has already started to brainstorm for an Abrupt Decay for your vial and a FoW for your Crusader. Are you looking for a Prelate to stop that Supreme Verdict/Deluge? Well, chances that they will play it now since they know you're coming for their massremoval. Your opponent almost always has a spot to see what's coming and get prepaired, and this makes our deck worse.

Yeah, he can be good, but this is just simply not enough. I would honestly want to see something else like an extra actual Qasali or a Prelate in his slot all the time. And cutting Knights to fit Recruiters seems just ridiculous to me. If you want to play Recruiters, why not just play D&T? They at least have a Rishadan Port to tap opponents out and support their strategy (e.g., stop that Supreme Verdict since opponent doesn't have double white anymore).

[Warden]

@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.


I would honestly want to see something else like an extra actual Qasali or a Prelate in his slot all the time.

This is really where playstyle differs. One isn't superior to the other. I'm on the opposite side of the fence because I'd rather obtain a relevant answer for the current situation. Using your example, it sucks to topdeck QPM when you need Prelate (and vice versa). Other times I hope to break open the game by dropping a KotR / SFM not currently in hand. I feel Prelate increases my odds of obtaining something I specifically need. We're also glossing over the later portion of the game where mana cost is almost irrelevant (especially in Zenith lists with Cradle). I topdeck Prelate, tutor, and immediately cast the tutored card. I cannot get a similar result from say, an additional prelate. But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

[TMagpie]

I'm open to it. It might even be the superior call. But out of personal experience, I'd prefer running 61/4 knights > 60/3 knights. She's never a bad call in my books.
The only thing that would really convince me to drop down to 3 KotR would be jamming KotR/Recruiter/Flickerwisp in a 60 card deck. I think the curve just blows up at some point and you can't run 12+ threedrops (equipment factored in here as well).

Yeah, curve was my primary question as well. I can't currently fit a 5th three drop + 3 equipment which means I have to make the call of "is Recruiter better than a Knight or a SOFI, assuming running just 1 is the correct call"

Thanks for the insight!

[TMagpie]

@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.



This is really where playstyle differs. One isn't superior to the other. I'm on the opposite side of the fence because I'd rather obtain a relevant answer for the current situation. Using your example, it sucks to topdeck QPM when you need Prelate (and vice versa). Other times I hope to break open the game by dropping a KotR / SFM not currently in hand. I feel Prelate increases my odds of obtaining something I specifically need. We're also glossing over the later portion of the game where mana cost is almost irrelevant (especially in Zenith lists with Cradle). I topdeck Prelate, tutor, and immediately cast the tutored card. I cannot get a similar result from say, an additional prelate. But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

So let's re-frame the question then:

What are the essential non-green creatures that we need to solve problems, and how many of them need a tutor to specifically find them?

[tescrin]

My only thing on shaving slots with GSZ/Recruiter is that IMO, you probably want like 3 QPM. I used him a bunch in bant and he's a total house; with Blade variants everywhere it seems quite good to have multiples so if it gets plowed, if they drop a second piece of equipment you need to pop, etc.. you have access.

I was mentioning somewhere on here that Exalted is no joke either. I was swinging for 5 on T3 the other day with a QPM just because I had a couple nobles. Even swinging for 4 is goyf-style pressure. I had a guy who begrudgingly plow'd a KotR who was very happy when he realized it wasn't a QPM, because he was ready for it to pop his Jitte; so in cases like that, he's even potential CA (when it's actually a QPM ;p)


EDIT: I should say, I've been going more and more aggro/proactive in the meta with my decks. QPM slots would replace decay slots most likely. Leo decks are attempting to capitalize on you loading up on removal, so while it's not a huge deal to give them a card, I'd rather be in the position they're playing a 3-color 3-mana 3/3 that doesn't affect me while I swing with flyers. It may be worth considering lingering souls in the deck just for end-game equip/planeswalker problems.

[Warden]

So let's re-frame the question then:

What are the essential non-green creatures that we need to solve problems, and how many of them need a tutor to specifically find them?

Mom: primarily defense/eliminates blockers for someone on offense
Thalia 1.0: tax effect + synergy with wastelanding the opponent. first strike sometimes relevant. karakas tricks sometimes relevant.
Wx support: situational, but may greatly impede opponent's strategy (see: canonist, containment priest, prelate, Thalia 2.0, Orzhov pontif). Commonly run as 0-2x.
Non-green, Non-white support: fringe options like Confidant, Kambal, Magus of the Moon, etc

Recruiter tutoring offense opens the doors to Mirran Crusader (0-2x) and SFM (2-4x).
**We are not considering KotR, QPM, Scooze, Scryb, Teeg, and Rallier as targets. You asked for non-green but those all qualify.

[TMagpie]

Mom: primarily defense/eliminates blockers for someone on offense
Thalia 1.0: tax effect + synergy with wastelanding the opponent. first strike sometimes relevant. karakas tricks sometimes relevant.
Wx support: situational, but may greatly impede opponent's strategy (see: canonist, containment priest, prelate, Thalia 2.0, Orzhov pontif). Commonly run as 0-2x.
Non-green, Non-white support: fringe options like Confidant, Kambal, Magus of the Moon, etc

Recruiter tutoring offense opens the doors to Mirran Crusader (0-2x) and SFM (2-4x).
**We are not considering KotR, QPM, Scooze, Scryb, Teeg, and Rallier as targets. You asked for non-green but those all qualify.

The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

[Luthiereisfun]

The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

It could be. Definitely warrants testing. My problem with recruiter as I've mentioned before is a lot of the non green hatebears I want, I want against combo. I think Maverick already handles fair MU more than fine. The problem here (for me) is that recruiter is too slow because the earliest I could drop a recruiter and then play the tutored creature, against combo is turn 3. Personally, I think that's a turn too slow.

Again I think it warrants testing and it could be that having the redundancy of hatebears + recruiter is fine.

[pettdan]

I don't think that anybody here argues that Recruiter is bad, not at all.
The issue with Recruiter is that while we are trying to make our deck faster, he is slow.
He is rather bad vs combo decks as he gives them a turn to combo out or adjust their strategy to the upcoming hatebear.


@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.

[...] But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

On the topic of speed and hatebears, I was suggested last weekend, and have considered myself, adding a Mox Diamond to the sideboard to enable t1 Thalia, Canonist etc. I very much feel that speed is crucial in unfair matchups. Not sure it's worth it, I just wanted to try it at some point. On the other hand, usually a t1 Thoughtseize has a similar effect, in that it delays your opponent's win and let's you deploy a hatebear.

[Warden]

On the topic of speed and hatebears, I was suggested last weekend, and have considered myself, adding a Mox Diamond to the sideboard to enable t1 Thalia, Canonist etc. I very much feel that speed is crucial in unfair matchups. Not sure it's worth it, I just wanted to try it at some point. On the other hand, usually a t1 Thoughtseize has a similar effect, in that it delays your opponent's win and let's you deploy a hatebear.

Those 2 approaches are the only realistic ways to save you from fast unfair things IMO. I'm tainted by combo going off while I stare at land #2 + Thalia in hand. Chaining together small annoyances is how you realistically win anyways (t1 wasteland does damage, t1 discard into t2 bear, t1 dork into turn 2 thalia/waste into turn 3 bear, simply dropping t2 teeg or priest, etc).


The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

I could see something like that working. I could see having 2 recruiter + 4 bullets main backed by 5-6 bears in the board (allowing you to double down on a relevant bear or swap out irrelevant ones). The remaining 9-10 cards would cater to specific matchups or solid catch-alls like Zealous.

[ET1]

Which cards do you find mvp in the Stoneblade matchup? I found that 4x fishes in one deck can give quite a headache.

Therefore, interesting question: what do you think of good old engineered plague in sb? It helps with lots of stuff, from tribal decks (elves, goblins, d&t, merfolks etc.) to fishes, tokens from mentor, pyromancer or lingering souls or, worst case, make e.g. a stoneforge 0/1 so they couldn't charge jitte.

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It varies based on the stoneblade variant. Keep in mind that the different varieties of stoneblade are very different from one another. In this particular match-up against UWr stoneblade I think the match-up is somewhat similar to miracles, just much better on our end. In my opinion the equipment are the mvp's, sword of light and shadow pulls a lot of weight, especially when behind. Sword of Fire & Ice is also pretty bonkers as well. The main thing is that equipment allows you to avoid over committing into a supreme verdict and lets you keep up by turning every creature into a legitimate win condition. Against other variants of stoneblade such as esper and deathblade wasteland is often your best card while being just mediocre-bad in the UWr stoneblade match-up.

Generally stoneblade decks rarely ever play 4 true-names and I most often see 2 and sometimes 3. Zealous persecution essentially won my game 3, as my opponent dropped an early true-name, but had already used their force on a thalia.

On Engineered Plague, I personally am not a huge fan, but do believe it is a meta call. It's going to be great against elves, merfolk and goblins, but elves is the only one of the three that holds any significant metagame share. In the case of D&T placing it on humans hurts us as well and doesn't do any better of a job then a zealous persecution (which also hits flickerwisp and phyrexian revoker). Against delver it seems pretty good, but most of the time I see zealous persecution doing just as much work. In most cases I do believe zealous persecution is just better, against elves and merfolk its also quicker which is important in both of those match-ups.

[ET1]

Chiming in on the Recruiter topic, I think you want to run him if you are playing aether vials, but I think he is too slow in GSZ maverick. If his main advantage over GSZ is the ability to grab hatebears such as ethersworn canonist, thalia, containment priest he is simply too slow against most combo decks. Thalia turn three or four is much less impactful than turn two. It essentially seems like recruiter would be a way to beat combo decks slower starts, not exactly where I want to be. In GSZ maverick he seems like a trap card. In D&T he seems much better as D&T often acts much more like a control deck than maverick. They have more mana denial and are better at employing it. This creates a much more sufficient delay to make recruiter impactful. Definitely a good card, but he seems slow in the match-ups we want him in.

[TMagpie]

Chiming in on the Recruiter topic, I think you want to run him if you are playing aether vials, but I think he is too slow in GSZ maverick. If his main advantage over GSZ is the ability to grab hatebears such as ethersworn canonist, thalia, containment priest he is simply too slow against most combo decks. Thalia turn three or four is much less impactful than turn two. It essentially seems like recruiter would be a way to beat combo decks slower starts, not exactly where I want to be. In GSZ maverick he seems like a trap card. In D&T he seems much better as D&T often acts much more like a control deck than maverick. They have more mana denial and are better at employing it. This creates a much more sufficient delay to make recruiter impactful. Definitely a good card, but he seems slow in the match-ups we want him in.

In reference to D&T

Because of Rishadan Port + Aether Vial, what D&T usually lacks isn't a way to survive the early turns, but to survive the midgame against combo. Tapping lands and taxing with thalia is all well and good--but sometimes the opponent gets to 6 lands and just goes off anyway. Vial + Recruiter allows for "end of turn" search shenanigans to find the last lock piece.

Maverick goes the opposite, where Thalia + Wasteland is to stall until Teeg or Knight come online. Once they do, either the opponent loses 4 lands in a row, or they can no longer win the game.

Neither strat is better than the other--just that there is a fundamental difference in *when* each deck needs its lock piece.

[ET1]

In reference to D&T

Because of Rishadan Port + Aether Vial, what D&T usually lacks isn't a way to survive the early turns, but to survive the midgame against combo. Tapping lands and taxing with thalia is all well and good--but sometimes the opponent gets to 6 lands and just goes off anyway. Vial + Recruiter allows for "end of turn" search shenanigans to find the last lock piece.

Maverick goes the opposite, where Thalia + Wasteland is to stall until Teeg or Knight come online. Once they do, either the opponent loses 4 lands in a row, or they can no longer win the game.

Neither strat is better than the other--just that there is a fundamental difference in *when* each deck needs its lock piece.

That's mainly what I meant. Two very different angles of attack.

[Ralf]

Hello,

I've been working since ages on a Junk blade concept and I'm now ready to share a list.
I think this thread might be the best place to share it as it is not so far from what Maverick has to offer.


Legendary Blade by Ralf

1 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Hero's Blade
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Hallowed Moonlight
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence


1) Eladamri instead of GSZ/Vial -> there is too many very good non green hatebears right now that we should not pass on the ability to be able to fetch them. I tried Time of Need but the list could only not be all about legendary creatures.

2) The initial concept was about to abuse Hero's Blade with legendary creatures. I tried 2 blades but was kind of disappointed.

3) SB is usually in flux and was not updated since Top's departure.


I hope some of you will be interested in trying something new and that we shall discuss about it.

Regards,

Ralf.

[TMagpie]

So many questions...

What's the value of this over Vial/Recruiter? You seem super soft to both Counterspell as well as your own consistency. Why heros blade? I think pure pump is fairly weak without other effects. If it's just size wouldn't just running more goyfs/KotR be more consistent? Why only 3 moms? If your deck is nothing but 1ofs isn't it MORE important to protect the one you resolve for the matchup? Is there enough density of disruptive threats? 4 Thalia 4 Zenith 1 Teeg means we have 9 hate cards that can resolve turn 2 with normal maverick that hits a wide range of decks--with so many 1ofs do you have enough consistency that you get those cards early enough consistently enough? Why only 3 eladamri's when it's the core of your deck?

I have many more questions about the structure of the deck as well as questions about card choices that I'll wait until I learn more from you--but I want to know more!

[aspsnake]

Hello,

I've been working since ages on a Junk blade concept and I'm now ready to share a list.
I think this thread might be the best place to share it as it is not so far from what Maverick has to offer.


Legendary Blade by Ralf

1 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Hero's Blade
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Hallowed Moonlight
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence


1) Eladamri instead of GSZ/Vial -> there is too many very good non green hatebears right now that we should not pass on the ability to be able to fetch them. I tried Time of Need but the list could only not be all about legendary creatures.

2) The initial concept was about to abuse Hero's Blade with legendary creatures. I tried 2 blades but was kind of disappointed.

3) SB is usually in flux and was not updated since Top's departure.


I hope some of you will be interested in trying something new and that we shall discuss about it.

Regards,

Ralf.

There is really nothing to discuss just yet, the list is way too slow.

You run 1x Teeg and 1x Thalia and (unless naturally drawn) you can play them as early as turn 3.
Maverick runs 3-4 Thalias and can get a turn 2 Teeg from a GSZ with a manadork, so it's up to 9 virtual hatebears that stop e.g. Storm on turn 2.

By turn 3 without a hatebear, vs almost any combo deck you are pretty much dead.
With your CMC costs going up to 6, Delver will ride you over with Daze in no time.

And your list will probably lose to even Maverick itself, as your package is very inconsistent and you deploy things slower.

[TMagpie]

There is really nothing to discuss just yet, the list is way too slow.

You run 1x Teeg and 1x Thalia and (unless naturally drawn) you can play them as early as turn 3.
Maverick runs 3-4 Thalias and can get a turn 2 Teeg from a GSZ with a manadork, so it's up to 9 virtual hatebears that stop e.g. Storm on turn 2.

By turn 3 without a hatebear, vs almost any combo deck you are pretty much dead.
With your CMC costs going up to 6, Delver will ride you over with Daze in no time.

And your list will probably lose to even Maverick itself, as your package is very inconsistent and you deploy things slower.

Before we pile on, let's think about this more abstractly. The idea of the deck is running Eladamri to find non-green creatures with more than 2 toughness. What creatures do we gain access to with that as as the starting point?

[Ralf]

There is really nothing to discuss just yet, the list is way too slow.

You run 1x Teeg and 1x Thalia and (unless naturally drawn) you can play them as early as turn 3.
Maverick runs 3-4 Thalias and can get a turn 2 Teeg from a GSZ with a manadork, so it's up to 9 virtual hatebears that stop e.g. Storm on turn 2.

By turn 3 without a hatebear, vs almost any combo deck you are pretty much dead.
With your CMC costs going up to 6, Delver will ride you over with Daze in no time.

And your list will probably lose to even Maverick itself, as your package is very inconsistent and you deploy things slower.


1) Kambal/Teeg/Thalia V1 & V2/ TS/ Abeyance is usually enough to manage at least 50/50 against storm.

2) Tasigur is usually played for B. So the top end is 2 CMC4.

3) I think you dismiss, a bit fast, any idea without testing. I usually don't post anything without at least a good testing phase.

So, the list was tested not as intensively as I would like but tested nonetheless.

[TMagpie]

1) Kambal/Teeg/Thalia V1 & V2/ TS/ Abeyance is usually enough to manage at least 50/50 against storm.

2) Tasigur is usually played for B. So the top end is 2 CMC4.

3) I think you dismiss, a bit fast, any idea without testing. I usually don't post anything without at least a good testing phase.

So, the list was tested not as intensively as I would like but tested nonetheless.

The issue is volume.

3 hatebears, 3 tutors main totals 6 ways to not die versus storm. Kambal isn't very good vs elves and show and tell, for example. But lets assume that they're all fine.

Stock maverick runs 9 main, and usually 5-6 more in the sideboard. Which means in a best of three stock maverick uses 9-15 cards (almost 25% of their deck) to fight combo. For you to match that (not be better, just match it) you'd need run 8-9 cards in your sideboard just for combo.

Once again, that is assuming the core of your list is good against combo, we currently have doubts that turn 2 Eladamri into turn 3 hatebear does anything against combo, but assuming being 50% slower than aiming for turn 2 is the deal, you still run a very low volume of answers.

[ET1]

1) Kambal/Teeg/Thalia V1 & V2/ TS/ Abeyance is usually enough to manage at least 50/50 against storm.

2) Tasigur is usually played for B. So the top end is 2 CMC4.

3) I think you dismiss, a bit fast, any idea without testing. I usually don't post anything without at least a good testing phase.

So, the list was tested not as intensively as I would like but tested nonetheless.

I have to concur with TMagpie on this one. 2 four drops alongside 5 three drops with only 4 dorks is going to be too slow. Additionally only 1 wasteland? How do you beat a karakas when running 8 legends? Hapatra also seems very out of place, hero's blade seems bad relative to a sword. I don't want to completely dismiss your idea, but when evaluating brews I think it's important to identify what unique advantages your deck has over deck x or y. If you could elaborate more on the main advantages compared to a more typical maverick deck as well as your testing process and results that would certainly be helpful.

[tescrin]

If people are going to start running jank Equips; IMO the list doesn't start anywhere near Hero's Blade:


Sword of Body and Mind
Godsend
Sword of Vengeance
Lightning Greaves
Manriki-Gusari


If all you want is a "cheap" pump (and a 3 mana Equip that sometimes equips for free is not cheap), just use Bonesplitter. That at least can equip to a Noble/DRS and become the same clock as a Delver.

Gettin' me fired up bringing Hero's Blade in here. At least run SoV, SoBaM, or Godsend so it counters TNN.

..Hero's blade.. Gettin' muh blood pressure up..

[TMagpie]

If people are going to start running jank Equips; IMO the list doesn't start anywhere near Hero's Blade:


Sword of Body and Mind
Godsend
Sword of Vengeance
Lightning Greaves
Manriki-Gusari


If all you want is a "cheap" pump (and a 3 mana Equip that sometimes equips for free is not cheap), just use Bonesplitter. That at least can equip to a Noble/DRS and become the same clock as a Delver.

Gettin' me fired up bringing Hero's Blade in here. At least run SoV, SoBaM, or Godsend so it counters TNN.

..Hero's blade.. Gettin' muh blood pressure up..

I am a HUGE fan of Sword of Body and mind. it stops all of storm's removal against teeg (both bounce, fatal push, abrupt decay, etc...) so that they need to cast 2 things in order get rid of Teeg is fantastic. Pro blue means you swing past Truename and pro green means you can swing past elves.

If you need better evasion against non-taxes lists, definitely a great sword.

As for the guy's ideas--why don't we take the core of it and see if we can expand from there?

The white tutor is Recruiter of the Guard. Costly, but can be vialed into play and can easily pick up equipment. Usually used in D&T to augment their Port/Thalia locks.

TARGETS: Creatures with toughness 2 or less.

The green tutor is Green Sun's Zenith. Searches for any green creature for G so long as you cast it that turn.

TARGETS: Green Creatures you can theoretically cast.

The current suggestion is for Eladamri's Call.

Pros: Searches for any creature. Instant.
Cons: Neither carries equipment or puts the creature into play.

For this card to truly be useful you'd need to want to search for creatures that have more than 2 toughness, are not green, and that you can cast.

Kambal actually fits that criteria very well. I believe that *if* an Eladamri deck could become good--it would be centered around cards like Kambal.

the drawback to Kambal, as opposed to Thalia, is that he punishes the opponent for casting spells as opposed to preventing them from casting spells. This means that if we play a deck that leans on Kambal it has to be one that mounts heavy pressure on the opponent's life total, and whose main support cards doesn't make the player just say "why not just run Thalia?"

The best card that fits the description is Tarmagoyf. Low cost fast clock that favors being run in a deck the pressures the opponent's life total. This, of course, suggests you run support cards to fit that strategy.

And if we are running a hatebear that drains--we should probably run a creature that can leverage the life gain you're about to have.

4 Serra Ascendant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Stoneforge
4 Kambal

4 Gerard's Verdict
4 Fatal Push (can't have the opponent gaining life can we?)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Eladamri's Call
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

22 lands?

Would that be closer to a playable Eldamri deck?

[Warden]

Kambal is a legend. I would max him at 2 in the 75.
As for the list, that's basically some rock/junk blade thing. Not Maverick. I think it would be more appropriate to continue that concept elsewhere.

I am yet to test Kambal. I'd rather go multiple prelates before running him in my deck but that's just my play style. I think locking people out of casting spells entirely trumps the life drain.

[TMagpie]

I'm really trying to help him here...

[Ralf]

I agree with Warden.
I'll continue the idea somewhere more appropriate.

Thanks for your patience.

[lavafrogg]

You guys are getting wonkier than I usually am!

That being said, I am still on 3/1 Prelates main with 3 Mirran Crusader 2 KotR and have been tearing it up. I am waiting for the next big Legacy Champs here in Arizona and hopefully I can get it off work.

For disruption 4 Thalia, 3 Prelate, 4 GSZ/Teeg has been really strong against all of the Delver and combo decks provided you get a turn 2.

[Guitarnewf]

Hey guys, new to the forums, semi new to the deck. Been reading this forum front and back. Maverick is my favourite deck to play out of all the decks that I have, but lately it's been doing terrible for me. It's been due to my bad luck to be honest. Horrible draws, no lands, flooded with lands, etc etc. The last legacy event at our local shop went terrible for me. Played against belcher, then elves, then br reanimator. =\

Our meta is full of a lot of fast decks, everything from elves, storm, both reanimators, food chain, alluren, bug, grixis, sneak and show, high tide. Also, death and taxes, lands, and everything in between. Stoneblade is pretty much the only deck not in our meta. My question is, I have a gpt coming up this weekend, and can't decide between two decks, Maverick, and Spiritblade. That is the two I narrowed it down to. Based on the meta I listed, is Maverick the right choice out of those two?

Here are the decks I have, just for reference:

Maverick
Spiritblade
Led Dredge
Belcher
Elves
Parfait
Enchantress
landstill
Sneak Fit
Jund Flow

I can't make a decision at all.

[Strassbaw]

I made top 8 and lost round 1 at Top deck Games 1K Legacy event in Haddon, NJ, USA. Here is my 75 and what I would change after playing in the event.

Creatures (22):
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes

Non-creature Spells (14)
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [24]

1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plateau
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath


Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fiery Justice
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life From the Loam
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Thalia and Punishing Fire normally are not played together, however, I think they are both so good, that you can run them in the main deck successfully. Punishing fire is great against the delver decks, and the other fair decks in the meta game. Thalia is great against the delver decks and the combo decks, and being good against delver is important right now.

Not running Stoneforge Mystic is something Punishing Maverick can do more easily than other versions. Stoneforge Mystic is too slow in the meta game I play in, however, Umezawa's Jitte is still a card I play because of its low mana cost and overall power level. Running the third Jitte in the board was a mistake, and keeping jitte at 2 in the main is just fine

Dark Depths and Thespian Stage have been solid for me. I can understand not running it, and I do sideboard it out sometimes. I think it's a card that is necessary especially when combo decks are heavy and you want a way to win games as soon as possible.

Deathrite Shaman is too good not to run, and running 4 has been great. Having to run 1 Bayou is a small price to pay and having access to black cards in the sideboard can be nice.

What I am changing in the sideboard:

- 1 life from the loam (better off being surgical)
-1 Umezawa's Jitte (better off being removal)
-1 Krosen Grip (Reactive cards are hard to play in maverick. 2 Pithing Needle help lack of Pridemage and Reclamation Sage)
+1 Zealous Persecution (running 2 black cards and 1 Bayou may be incorrect. I want more cards for Elves, DnT, Storm, TNN, etc. and this card fits well.
+1 Surgical Extraction (I felt weak to Reanimate without Enlightened Tutor, so extra Surgical Extractions is where I am going)
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm is getting a more play in my area, and having a diversity of hate has worked well for me. Having hate for turn 1 is a weakness of the deck, and if turn 1 hate is needed, Maverick is probably not the right archetype to be playing. Chrome Mox is better at hating decks that can win turn 1, and I think Canonist plan is the best plan for the deck.

Thanks for reading. Good luck and keep playing fair.

[pettdan]

Hey guys, new to the forums, semi new to the deck. Been reading this forum front and back. Maverick is my favourite deck to play out of all the decks that I have, but lately it's been doing terrible for me. It's been due to my bad luck to be honest. Horrible draws, no lands, flooded with lands, etc etc. The last legacy event at our local shop went terrible for me. Played against belcher, then elves, then br reanimator. =\

Hi, nice to have new posters around! What does your list look like? Maybe you can get some constructive feedback.


Our meta is full of a lot of fast decks, everything from elves, storm, both reanimators, food chain, alluren, bug, grixis, sneak and show, high tide. Also, death and taxes, lands, and everything in between. Stoneblade is pretty much the only deck not in our meta. My question is, I have a gpt coming up this weekend, and can't decide between two decks, Maverick, and Spiritblade. That is the two I narrowed it down to. Based on the meta I listed, is Maverick the right choice out of those two?

What is Spiritblade? Stoneforge, Spell Quellers and then what?

Tough to answer such questions.. But I'll try. Maverick seems pretty ok in that meta, which btw seems similar to mine. Mana denial and hatebears should be able to win most of those games, but I'm not sure how favorable it is. The fast decks can be too fast and the midrange combos can be hard to prevent; on the other hand we reasonably often win those matchups based on hatebears and mana disruption, in my experience. It seems like a lot of fast to midrange combo variants, and in such a meta I would think that a deck with FoW and some other counterspell backup might be better, which I guess is what Spiritblade has. Discard and some amount of hatebears to complement the disruption sounds to me like an optimal plan. So I would argue, up for discussion, that the amount of fair decks such as BUG and Grixis decide if the favor swings to the Maverick deck, blue based fair decks are pretty good matchups since we have the Thalia + Wasteland problem for them and Knights with Mother backup. The sideboard should probably have 4 discard and Choke seems good.

If playing Maverick, I would want Sanctum Prelate in the maindeck or sideboard, it's great vs Sneak n Show to prevent Omniscience and Cunning Wish and Kozilek's Return, also stopping Cunning Wish vs High Tide which I think is good (I lost hard to that deck a week ago, then added Prelates for testing). Prelate is also good vs Elves, Storm and I think Food Chain where it also stops boarded in sweepers like Toxic Deluge or Engineered Plague if they run it.

[Guitarnewf]

Hey there, thanks for the response. The last list I played was very similar to the one Solnox 5-0'd with, except with a couple of changes. Mainly adding a cradle, and 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar. My sideboard is a mix of TMagpie, and Solnox list. Graveyard hate, hand disruption, combo hatebears. Adding the Orim's Chants have been a lot better than I was expecting, and I seriously am contemplating putting them main board over the Sanctum Prelate. I even ran a list with Rafiq of the many, Phyrexian crusader, and Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, in my flex slots, in which I 4-0'd a local legacy event. My matchups at that one were Miracles, Elves, Merfolk, Grixis Delver.

It just seems that if you don't get that perfect opening hand in this meta, it's a lose lose situation. Mulling down to 4 frigging hurts.


Spiritblade is the UW list that runs the spirits and stoneforge package, probe and meddling mage for a uw version of probe and therapy. It also has thalia's, and true name. I even added 2 show and tell and 1 emrakul, for a little spice that catches people off guard. This was mainly because I ended up playing two high tide decks in one night. I like the ability to be able to run detention spheres, and supreme verdict in the sideboard. The unfortunate part of the deck is the lack of deck manipulation. I had to add 4 brainstorm to help. Seriously thinking about trying predict in the list as well.

Spiritblade seems like a random pile of nonsense that just works. I play tested against my friend for 4 hours straight, against his death and taxes, because there are going to be at least two there, and it's a hard matchup. Whoever hit stoneforge with jitte first, won the games. Then he switched it up, adding revoker to name jitte, ran sword of fire and ice, and it became incredibly hard to win. The flip side is, I tested against my other buddy's UR Delver, and it just wrecked house against that deck. Thalia with wasteland was insane, the flying spirits able to counter all his spells, and equip a sword of fire and ice, to pick off his creatures, was amazing. The deck has amazing non creature matchups, and very hard creature matchups.


It's a really tough choice.

[montoy]

LANDS 23
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

CREATURES 25
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Renegade Rallier

INSTANTS SORCERY
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay

OTHERS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

SB 15
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution

First time using this on a tourney, not much play test yet, but im pretty happy how it interacts.
Still longing for LOTV, but i can see why i dont need her for now.
I can feel the potential, though it turns out that our meta is shifting to storm and SNT.
Will teek this one alittle this is mostly a stock MAV ver.
Will get the hang of this one pretty quickly im sure, and a breather from my junk deck. (",)

RD1 2-0 - INFECT
1- a live jitte won me this
2- i though will still hit rd3 but a KOTR with SOFAF won me this

RD2 0-2 - MUD DRAZI
1- he managed to kill all my ramps, can't GSZ a KOTR in time
2- same thing happened

RD3 1-2 - ANT
1- thalia stole the game
2- got killed turn 2
3- misplay on my end...he went for the warrens for 8gobs. was able to kill them of on by one, but i should have searched for teeg instead of dropping 2 DRS, to protect me from the gobs. killed me with a tendrils, im down to 6 that time.

RD4 1-2 - BURN
1- finished fairly quickly
2- live jitte won me
3- managed to defend my self for a while. close fight. no gsz or KOTR or depths came T_T

RD5 2-0 - CECH PILE
1- Thalia again
2- Stand off with DRS, good thing SCOOZE came out. Strix was a problem due to death touch. Scryb Ranger did most of the job.

[aspsnake]

LANDS 23
1Forest
1Plains
2Bayou
2Savannah
1Scrubland
1Marsh Flats
3Verdant Catacombs
4Windswept Heath
1Karakas
1Thespian's Stage
1Dark Depths
1Maze of Ith
4Wasteland

CREATURES 25
4Mother of Runes
2Stoneforge Mystic
4Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1Dryad Arbor
4Deathrite Shaman
1Birds of Paradise
1Scavenging Ooze
1Scryb Ranger
1Gaddock Teeg
4Knight of the Reliquary
1Qasali Pridemage
1Renegade Rallier

INSTANTS SORCERY
4Green Sun's Zenith
4Swords to Plowshares
1Abrupt Decay

OTHERS
1Sword of Fire and Ice
1Umezawa's Jitte
1Sylvan Library

SB 15
1Pithing Needle
1Phyrexian Revoker
1Sword of Feast and Famine
1Bojuka Bog
3Thoughtseize
1Chains of Mephistopheles
2Surgical Extraction
1Toxic Deluge
1Containment Priest
2Ethersworn Canonist
1Abrupt Decay
1Zealous Persecution

First time using this on a tourney, not much play test yet, but im pretty happy how it interacts.
Still longing for LOTV, but i can see why i dont need her for now.
I can feel the potential, though it turns out that our meta is shifting to storm and SNT.
Will teek this one alittle this is mostly a stock MAV ver.
Will get the hang of this one pretty quickly im sure, and a breather from my junk deck. (",)

RD1 2-0 - INFECT
1- a live jitte won me this
2- i though will still hit rd3 but a KOTR with SOFAF won me this

RD2 0-2 - MUD DRAZI
1- he managed to kill all my ramps, can't GSZ a KOTR in time
2- same thing happened

RD3 1-2 - ANT
1- thalia stole the game
2- got killed turn 2
3- misplay on my end...he went for the warrens for 8gobs. was able to kill them of on by one, but i should have searched for teeg instead of dropping 2 DRS, to protect me from the gobs. killed me with a tendrils, im down to 6 that time.

RD4 1-2 - BURN
1- finished fairly quickly
2- live jitte won me
3- managed to defend my self for a while. close fight. no gsz or KOTR or depths came T_T

RD5 2-0 - CECH PILE
1- Thalia again
2- Stand off with DRS, good thing SCOOZE came out. Strix was a problem due to death touch. Scryb Ranger did most of the job.
From your report, it doesn't seem that depths were doing whole a lot [emoji14] Also, was Maze that useful outside of the Infect matchup?

[Cheesehead]

I would like to post my first decklist with which I will start with Legacy, it's a GW list and I tested it in 5 matches so far:

3 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jutte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Savannah
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

I am not sure about the sideboard yet, but I am thinking about going with:

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle

The meta is very blue with some burn and couple of Storm and Reanimator..

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[aspsnake]

I would like to post my first decklist with which I will start with Legacy, it's a GW list and I tested it in 5 matches so far:

3 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jutte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Savannah
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

I am not sure about the sideboard yet, but I am thinking about going with:

2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle

The meta is very blue with some burn and couple of Storm and Reanimator..

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Hi!

1) Why Crop Rotation mainboard, without the combo? Pre-board it doesn't help you neither vs Storm or Reanimator. Imo, put it in sb or remove.
2) If you are willing to commit so many slots in sb for Reanimator, why not just go with Leyline of the Void? It's autowin if you have it, unlike a Surgical or a Faerie, as they might have several discard & reanimate spells. And they can't discard it before they do their stuff. Against Storm, it's also more scary as it makes their Past in Flames sub-plan literally useless. And since Storm players changed their oldschool Chain Vapors for Abrupt Decays...
3) Since Storm is a big thing in your meta and you don't run Thoughtseize due to no-black, I would recommend 1-2 sideboard Orim's Chants, to increase the chances of making it into turn 2. It also helps vs Reanimator and a variety of other decks. (Reanimator, going second: landdrop, dark ritual - in resp orim's chant; if they don't have a second land, ritual or a petal - they are so much screeewed; if they have lands but not Reanimate, they are slowed down up to turn 3 - and now you can zenith for a scooze and screw them big time).
4) Supporting Batterskull, in my opinion, requires at least 3 Stoneforges. If you search for it & Stoneforge is removed, you really don't want to play Batterskull for its casting cost. Remove Batterskull or add 1 Stoneforge. Given your meta, I would say remove it.

Aside from that, the list seems solid. Good luck!

[Armano]

Last Weekend there was a Legacy Tournament I participated. Here a small report
First of all my list:

Deck:
Creatures
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 mirran crusader
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 renegade rallier
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze

Other spells
4 Green suns zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 sylvan Library

Lands
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Castle of Eiganjo
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 gaeas cradle

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 mirran crusader
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wilt leaf liege
1 sanctum prelate
1 stony silence

First some small notes, I chose a stony silence because there are some affinity and mud players around in my local store.

Round 1: Death and Taxes 0:2
Game 1: we both mulliganed to 6, he started and just was always one turn faster, he got jitte online, while I had no stp. A germ with all 3 equipments on then finally won the game.
Game 2: I mulled to 6. I started, and got a jitte turn 2. He got a mother turn 2 with his while, but I had no stp. He stopped my jitte with his revoker and searched for batterskull. Then I wasn't able to come back.

Round 2: Jund 2:0
Game 1: Turn 2 hymn, was bad. but with mother of runes and a growing knight I could close the game.
Game 2: This game was quite funny, his Hymn had left me 3 stp and nothing else. I so could handle everything he drew and got then a mother and a thalia online

Round 3: Nic Fit 2:0
Game 1: the game took really long, about 30 minutes. Decicions were quite hard, but a jitte helped very much. He played in a late turn a grave titan. but I then found a mirran crusader with a SoFI on it, which was just faster.
Game 2: was also quite long. Wo both had betwen 1 and 8 lives, and then drained forth and back with DRS. I could make a winning board position, but then he found as last out a pernicious deed. I had not enough mana to bounce batterskull and play again. I then decided that draw with the canopy is better, what it truly was, I found a thalia in the 2 cards and won next turn.

Round 4: Shardless BUG 2:1
dont remember exactely the games. I alwas tried to first bring the small threads he has to handle like mother or ooze, and then when he used his removals I played a KotR which then closed the games.

Roudn 5: Aggro loam 0:2
Game 1: was really sad. he had a T1 land mox library. I played land mother. in his second turn he looked at the 3 cards, took one, missed his land drop and said go. I had only one additional creature, and a waste land. I drew about 4 lands in a row nad couldnt make pressure. He then finally finds a land and plays bob into lili into leovold and handled everything I drew from this point on. Also my opponent said that I should have won this game.. but.. yes. this is magic
Game 2: he drew 3 out of 3 stp of his side board and just removed everything. I had no chance.


I had the best tie breaker and was 8th with 3:2. I hoped for a win and a close top 8.
Game 6: Eldrazi 0:2
Game 1: He had some creatures and a jitte. I got me a pridemage and removed it, he topdecked another jitte and won.
Game 2: I blocked extremely dumb and gave the game away. Still a bit angry.

Finally I have to say, I think the mirran crusader is really good. I am also a fan of the renegade rallier. But 2 are too much I think. one is enough. I think I change it to 1 renegade and 2 prelates. The stony silence is bad. Its not useful. Will not bring it again.