[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Guitarnewf]

Ok, so if I decide to play maverick this weekend at the gpt, I am thinking something like this:

Creature (21)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
1 renegade rallier
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Sorcery (11)
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize

Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Land (23)
1x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 orim's chant
2 sanctum prelate
2 surgical extraction
2 ethersworn canonist
2 zealous persecution
1 pithing needle
1 batterskull
1 stoneforge mystic
1 toxic deluge

Been playtesting the orim's chant, and I absolutely love that card. Been using it in parfait, and after seeing it in another sideboard on here, I decided to try it, and I glad I did.

I am trying to speed up my deck a little with some turn one hand disruption. Hymn hurts a lot on turn two. Cabal into dryad arbor is a great line, and if I add the renegade rallier back, I can get the dryad arbor back with it's ability. In my meta, I have been dying a lot to fast decks lately, like stated above, and I am always finding myself saying "if only", so why not add the disruption and by myself a turn two for a thalia or similar.


I am still undecided between this deck and the Spiritblade deck, but I keep finding myself wanting to make this work.

Thoughts?

[tescrin]

Personally I brewedup something that turned out to be similar to "Spiritblade" style deck but instead of bad 1-drops I'm running Spellstutter Sprite as Queller 5-8 and otherwise am a regular Deathblade deck. I'm not running Thalia (running Daze) but I've considered a swap there. Stutters are supported by Blossoms to keep them relevant and add grindy power for fair MUs.

I was quite happy with it in initial testing. Flash-Equip dudes who counter the removal or threats of your opponent. I haven't posted much about it because it's janky as hell and I don't have much in the way of results yet. Once I have enough "oomph" against Fair decks however, I expect to not be able to shut up about it. I got live the dream of "Spellqueller on Decay" to an opponent, then "Spellstutter your Plow" (might have been a brainstorm, can't remember) and was sitting with dudes, carrying equips, flashed in, after timewalking the guy. It's a great feeling and I think it has some real potential with some refinement. I do think that Daze/Force/SFM/DRS or other dorks are mandatory though. Opening up Queller on T2, and being able to obscure your Queller/Sprite with an SFM->BSK threatening activation can potentially bait opponents into casting something. If they don't, you just spend your mana on DRS or SFM activations EoT and move on with your life.

IMO, the deck will work best when you have enough activation costs that you don't look like you're only holding it waiting for your opponent, and it requires you to "lean forward" and be aggressive since you want your opponent to get stuck on their back foot.

I think the 1-drop heavy Judge's Familiar and other spirit guy are garbage though. Sprite has *real* CA attached to it, T2, no strings attached. No "pay 1" nonsense either.

That said, this thread should probably quit talking about Spell Quellers ;)

[TMagpie]

Personally I brewedup something that turned out to be similar to "Spiritblade" style deck but instead of bad 1-drops I'm running Spellstutter Sprite as Queller 5-8 and otherwise am a regular Deathblade deck. I'm not running Thalia (running Daze) but I've considered a swap there. Stutters are supported by Blossoms to keep them relevant and add grindy power for fair MUs.

I was quite happy with it in initial testing. Flash-Equip dudes who counter the removal or threats of your opponent. I haven't posted much about it because it's janky as hell and I don't have much in the way of results yet. Once I have enough "oomph" against Fair decks however, I expect to not be able to shut up about it. I got live the dream of "Spellqueller on Decay" to an opponent, then "Spellstutter your Plow" (might have been a brainstorm, can't remember) and was sitting with dudes, carrying equips, flashed in, after timewalking the guy. It's a great feeling and I think it has some real potential with some refinement. I do think that Daze/Force/SFM/DRS or other dorks are mandatory though. Opening up Queller on T2, and being able to obscure your Queller/Sprite with an SFM->BSK threatening activation can potentially bait opponents into casting something. If they don't, you just spend your mana on DRS or SFM activations EoT and move on with your life.

IMO, the deck will work best when you have enough activation costs that you don't look like you're only holding it waiting for your opponent, and it requires you to "lean forward" and be aggressive since you want your opponent to get stuck on their back foot.

I think the 1-drop heavy Judge's Familiar and other spirit guy are garbage though. Sprite has *real* CA attached to it, T2, no strings attached. No "pay 1" nonsense either.

That said, this thread should probably quit talking about Spell Quellers ;)

Hate Drakes are always welcome :)

[DoomRabbit]

What's everyone's ratio of Zealous Persecution to Toxic Deluge in the sideboard?
I finally got around to getting a couple of TDs so now I have to figure out how to use them.
I've seen 2 ZP 1 TD, and 1 and 1 in lists that run both.

I'm currently leaning towards the 2 ZP and 1 TD config, is 3 sweeper effects too many?
This is a pretty unknown meta, but they're coming in mostly vs TNN and Elves which I feel are likely to be prominent.

[Luthiereisfun]

What's everyone's ratio of Zealous Persecution to Toxic Deluge in the sideboard?
I finally got around to getting a couple of TDs so now I have to figure out how to use them.
I've seen 2 ZP 1 TD, and 1 and 1 in lists that run both.

I'm currently leaning towards the 2 ZP and 1 TD config, is 3 sweeper effects too many?
This is a pretty unknown meta, but they're coming in mostly vs TNN and Elves which I feel are likely to be prominent.

I've ran a 2zp and 1td split before and liked it quite a bit. I was using ZP mainly vs TNN with upside vs DNT/Elves/Infect etc.. and TD as the haymaker against Elves and other decks where board wipes are good. I think in an unknown meta 2-3 sb sweepers are reasonable since they're good against some of our worst MU, handle TNN, and applicable elsewhere. If you go to 2 sweepers I would cut the 2nd ZP, just to have a more diverse sb plan.

[aspsnake]

I've ran a 2zp and 1td split before and liked it quite a bit. I was using ZP mainly vs TNN with upside vs DNT/Elves/Infect etc.. and TD as the haymaker against Elves and other decks where board wipes are good. I think in an unknown meta 2-3 sb sweepers are reasonable since they're good against some of our worst MU, handle TNN, and applicable elsewhere. If you go to 2 sweepers I would cut the 2nd ZP, just to have a more diverse sb plan.

What's so good about TD in sb? I understand that in matches where it shines we side out thalias, but I really don't want to lose my moms, even against Elves...

[Cpt-Qc]

What's so good about TD in sb? I understand that in matches where it shines we side out thalias, but I really don't want to lose my moms, even against Elves...

losing moms > losing game. ZP can be quite awkward since they keep their DRS (when your best hope is for them to block an attacking mom you know you're fucked). TD whipes everything AND makes sure their cradle taps for 0 while still leaving kotr or the equipped creature alive.

Also it's a little more flexible, allowing you to clean a board with equipped creature and/or opposing bears.

[calcymon]

2 zealous & 1 toxic it's probably the best option, vs elves u have canonists / jitte / orim's chant (if u play it) too.
right now i am trying to play side with 1 path to exile and 1 maelstrom pulse instead of 1 toxic, but probably i agree adding the third side global removal with 1 toxic

[TMagpie]

Just played at a Channelfireball 3k that got bumped to a 4k when 98 players showed up.

Under-performed overall, but them the beats.

It was seven rounds and I went 5-2, ending at 17th.

Round One: D&T 2-0

This was a fairly straight forward matchup and I won easily. He ran at least 2 Mirran Crusaders maindeck but without support they're just 2health victims to Jitte.

Round Two: D&T 1-2

Lost game one and three to a timely Palace Jailer. We traded cards early both games and I resolved a 4th turn Knight as the only card in play both times--but a turn 4 Jailer on his end simply put the game out of reach as summoning sickness kept preventing me from gaining back the tempo needed to beat his card draws.

Round Three: Elves 2-1

Hatebears into Dark Depths made this a super quick and easy match.

Round Four: Shardless 2-0

He never resolved Shardless Agent or Ancestral Visions, so even though I ended both games with no lands in play and only 2-3 creatures on board--it was more than enough to break him.

Round Five: Grixis Delver 1-2

Both games one and three were fast delver draws that I was a turn away from turning around. Missed three land drops game one while game three was ended by early double bolt + double delver before I could resolve Jitte.

Round Six: Abzan Nic Fit 2-1

Game one he resolved an early tracker and then Junded me to death, killing my guys while drawing cards. Games two and three I was able to untap with Knights and Prelates and the game was laughable.

Round Seven: Goblins 2-1

Dead on board and saved by Marit Lage game two, Revoker (on Aether Vial) wearing a SOFI ended game three.

In Review:

Little bummed my losses were favored match-ups, but that's why you practice and never take any opponent lightly. I was able to win my rough matches, but I feel like I'm under-prepared for my favored matches. Toxic was a house all day, but so was Abrupt Decay. There seems to be a massive dive in Shardless style slow BUG decks and a steady rise in more tempo oriented Delver strategies along with Death and Taxes starting to spike in popularity; might have to change the maindeck to adapt.

The List:

Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard: 14
3 Orim's Chant
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

I cut the 15 sideboard card so I can side down to 60 games two and three versus Delver/Tempo/Burn strategies. The sideboard definitely needs tweaking and I will be doing so a lot before Vegas. Still, 17th out of 99 is not bad and losing winnable matches means that the issue was me, not the deck--and I am fixable. Just need to make less mistakes and get luckier.

[montoy]

From your report, it doesn't seem that depths were doing whole a lot [emoji14] Also, was Maze that useful outside of the Infect matchup?

maze did well on infect but it was a wasteland target...
will probably board it if i go to the below route...

there were alot of times that depths was just a dead card, or thespian was there but no KOTR...
and would rather have a decay or a thoughtseize than that...haha
will try it without DD/TS combo...and will probably get a cradle and horizon if ever

(",)

[TMagpie]

maze did well on infect but it was a wasteland target...
will probably board it if i go to the below route...

there were alot of times that depths was just a dead card, or thespian was there but no KOTR...
and would rather have a decay or a thoughtseize than that...haha
will try it without DD/TS combo...and will probably get a cradle and horizon if ever

(",)

The slow decline of slow BUG decks is having me think the same thing. Right now its essential in the elves matchup for me, winning me essentially all my games against Elves.

But it used to also give me wins vs the various Shardless/Leovold/BUG decks that used to keep Miracles on its toes--with those disappearing it becomes harder to justify percentage points wise.

[ET1]

Just played at a Channelfireball 3k that got bumped to a 4k when 98 players showed up.

Under-performed overall, but them the beats.

It was seven rounds and I went 5-2, ending at 17th.

Round One: D&T 2-0

This was a fairly straight forward matchup and I won easily. He ran at least 2 Mirran Crusaders maindeck but without support they're just 2health victims to Jitte.

Round Two: D&T 1-2

Lost game one and three to a timely Palace Jailer. We traded cards early both games and I resolved a 4th turn Knight as the only card in play both times--but a turn 4 Jailer on his end simply put the game out of reach as summoning sickness kept preventing me from gaining back the tempo needed to beat his card draws.

Round Three: Elves 2-1

Hatebears into Dark Depths made this a super quick and easy match.

Round Four: Shardless 2-0

He never resolved Shardless Agent or Ancestral Visions, so even though I ended both games with no lands in play and only 2-3 creatures on board--it was more than enough to break him.

Round Five: Grixis Delver 1-2

Both games one and three were fast delver draws that I was a turn away from turning around. Missed three land drops game one while game three was ended by early double bolt + double delver before I could resolve Jitte.

Round Six: Abzan Nic Fit 2-1

Game one he resolved an early tracker and then Junded me to death, killing my guys while drawing cards. Games two and three I was able to untap with Knights and Prelates and the game was laughable.

Round Seven: Goblins 2-1

Dead on board and saved by Marit Lage game two, Revoker (on Aether Vial) wearing a SOFI ended game three.

In Review:

Little bummed my losses were favored match-ups, but that's why you practice and never take any opponent lightly. I was able to win my rough matches, but I feel like I'm under-prepared for my favored matches. Toxic was a house all day, but so was Abrupt Decay. There seems to be a massive dive in Shardless style slow BUG decks and a steady rise in more tempo oriented Delver strategies along with Death and Taxes starting to spike in popularity; might have to change the maindeck to adapt.

The List:

Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 13
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard: 14
3 Orim's Chant
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

I cut the 15 sideboard card so I can side down to 60 games two and three versus Delver/Tempo/Burn strategies. The sideboard definitely needs tweaking and I will be doing so a lot before Vegas. Still, 17th out of 99 is not bad and losing winnable matches means that the issue was me, not the deck--and I am fixable. Just need to make less mistakes and get luckier.

How do you like the full play set of stoneforge mystics? I've at times thought about going up to 3 given the awesome card advantage they provide.

[aspsnake]

Hi all,

I've been thinking why does Maverick go down in rankings on mtgtop8.com and found out that this is very possible due to combo & heavy CA control decks rising.
Therefore, I've decided to check the leading decks (5% of meta & more). These are: Grixis Delver (11%), Show&Tell (8%), Storm (8%), UWx Control (7%), BUG Midrange (6%) and D&T (5%). These are also the decks that we can be highly expecting to meet in top-8.

With the exception of D&T (which we have a positive matchup against), literally all or almost all of these decks run 8+ cantrips and are blue. This means that the following cards should normally be exceptionally strong right now:

- Spirit of the Labyrinth
- Chains of Mephistopheles
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (check)
- Choke (check)

What do you guys think of running 2 Spirits & 4 Thalias mainboard and 2 Chokes + 1 Chains in sb? This should help a lot. Chains screws us only on a Library (could be even dropped) and blue-red sword's drawing ability (not critical), but decks with Brainstorm and no Abrupt Decay (Grixis Delver, Show&Tell, UWx Control) are rather screwed unless they manually draw the right answer.

Alternatively, we could also splash blue for Leopold instead of running spirits (zenithable), but it seems clunky and then Chokes will probably go out.

Thoughts?

[TMagpie]

Hi all,

I've been thinking why does Maverick go down in rankings on mtgtop8.com and found out that this is very possible due to combo & heavy CA control decks rising.
Therefore, I've decided to check the leading decks (5% of meta & more). These are: Grixis Delver (11%), Show&Tell (8%), Storm (8%), UWx Control (7%), BUG Midrange (6%) and D&T (5%). These are also the decks that we can be highly expecting to meet in top-8.

With the exception of D&T (which we have a positive matchup against), literally all or almost all of these decks run 8+ cantrips and are blue. This means that the following cards should normally be exceptionally strong right now:

- Spirit of the Labyrinth
- Chains of Mephistopheles
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (check)
- Choke (check)

What do you guys think of running 2 Spirits & 4 Thalias mainboard and 2 Chokes + 1 Chains in sb? This should help a lot. Chains screws us only on a Library (could be even dropped) and blue-red sword's drawing ability (not critical), but decks with Brainstorm and no Abrupt Decay (Grixis Delver, Show&Tell, UWx Control) are rather screwed unless they manually draw the right answer.

Alternatively, we could also splash blue for Leopold instead of running spirits (zenithable), but it seems clunky and then Chokes will probably go out.

Thoughts?

Aren't all of those favorable matchups for Maverick?

[TMagpie]

How do you like the full play set of stoneforge mystics? I've at times thought about going up to 3 given the awesome card advantage they provide.

I'm a huge fan of 4 Stoneforge on the blind, and I'm a bigger fan of it in BUG heavy metas. Oftentimes turn 2 stoneforge for Batterskull gives you an instant read on how much the opponent cares about life totals, the red zone, and his ability to deal with x/4 creatures. More often than not being able to bait removal early, followed by KotR can quickly end the game, but if they trump your Knight you just use it to ramp into the Batterskull anyway.

Saying that, I also do side out the package (2 SFM 1 BSkull) vs a lot of decks.

The other reason I love the card is because vs Belcher/TES/etc... where more often than not their kills are actually with Empty the Warrens, 4 SFM gives me a high chance of resolving a Skull on turn 3 to turn the tide of the goblin beats.

[Luthiereisfun]

Definitely a fan of the higher sfm count. I feel like equipment has really become one of the key aspects to winning with Maverick in fair MU for me. If I can get that jitte online vs DnT/Elves/Infect its game over. If I can get SoFi online vs control or TNN it's game over. I used to see SFM just as extra copies of equipment for whatever the situation called for but I think it's more than that.

I run 3 equipment so the higher chance I have of having a sfm stick to start cheating in equipment the better. Currently at 3 sfm.

[RobNC]

I ran three SFM in a GPT yesterday and being able to reliably fetch Jitte (even if the SFM died before dropping it) single handedly won me games against Infect and Burn that I otherwise had no business winning. SOFI helped me out against a BUG deck too. Batterskull came out pretty much every game and the few times I actually had it in hand it stayed in hand til the end, unfortunately.

[tescrin]

I ran three SFM in a GPT yesterday and being able to reliably fetch Jitte (even if the SFM died before dropping it) single handedly won me games against Infect and Burn that I otherwise had no business winning. SOFI helped me out against a BUG deck too. Batterskull came out pretty much every game and the few times I actually had it in hand it stayed in hand til the end, unfortunately.

Honestly, I was (in blue) running an Elspeth, Knight-Errant and after playing a bit the other day replaced her with SFM #4. I think any time I saw the card I would've ended the game faster, had an easier time casting, etc.. the SFM, and would probably have gone 4-0 instead of 3-1 since I lost to BUG Delver via my own Blossom. Fact is, Jitte/BSK are such giant life-gain pools that you can turn the game on a dime.

Jitte has even been good for me as a clock against unfair decks like Lands. Swinging as a 5/5 or bigger can really bring the 20 life you gave them back to lethal in a hurry with some help.

[aspsnake]

Aren't all of those favorable matchups for Maverick?

Grixis Delver: not really, with Cabal Therapy and tokens they can give us a bad day. And in sb they have some nukes, which doesn't help either.
UWx: nowadays there is a new trend to play with Thing in the Ice, which not only forces us to keep Swords in mainboard, but also can be quite nasty when you don't draw one. I think while it's obviously not Miracles, it's still a bad matchup.
Storm: I think it's mostly favorable, but there are hands sometimes that you just cannot beat.
Show&Tell: quite unfavorable.
BUG: Depends on the build, some are favorable, some (e.g. Delver with Hymns) are quite sloppy.

I wouldn't say that the meta is so Maverick-friendly atm, and statistics quite prove my point :p
But I've not been playing for a couple of month, I need to come back and check everything myself "in the field".

[Skizz]

Hello,
i wanted to post a punishing fire list which im durdling around since the last 2 weeks now.
i have tested it against elves, grixis-delver, deathblade, esperblade and aggro loam lately...
and it felt very cute! (love Mindcensor, Ajani and E.Witness as cards in general)

in my opinion gw/b is strictly better - but i wanted to give pfire a try in our local meta.

are there any Red Mages out there?^^

1 Forrest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
6 Fetchlands
3 Wastelands

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Qasal Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scrybranger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness

4 Green Suns Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Ajani, Vengeant
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Sudden Demise - Swarmdecks
2 Pyroblasts - antiblue
1 Ancient Grudge - anti Equipment
1 Wear/Tear - Anti Equipment/Enchantment
2 Ethersworn Canonist - Anticombo
2 Blessed Alliance - out to Nemesis,Progenitus, etc.
1 Councils Judgement - Anti Everything
2 Choke - fuck Islands!
1 Pithing Needle - allrounder
1 Phyrexian Revoker - allrounder
1 Engineered Explosives - another catch all

[TMagpie]

Grixis Delver: not really, with Cabal Therapy and tokens they can give us a bad day. And in sb they have some nukes, which doesn't help either.
UWx: nowadays there is a new trend to play with Thing in the Ice, which not only forces us to keep Swords in mainboard, but also can be quite nasty when you don't draw one. I think while it's obviously not Miracles, it's still a bad matchup.
Storm: I think it's mostly favorable, but there are hands sometimes that you just cannot beat.
Show&Tell: quite unfavorable.
BUG: Depends on the build, some are favorable, some (e.g. Delver with Hymns) are quite sloppy.

I wouldn't say that the meta is so Maverick-friendly atm, and statistics quite prove my point :p
But I've not been playing for a couple of month, I need to come back and check everything myself "in the field".

I find Grixis Delver super favorable, and I rarely if ever lose to it unless they do something like double delver daze, force, double bolt like they did last time. But otherwise I'm happy to see the volc/underground combo on their side.

Same with BUG. My losses to all versions of it are few and far between.

Show and Tell is a bit weirder. The more red they are the deader they are. I've lost maybe 1-2 matches versus Sneak and Show in the past 2-3 years while I've only beaten mono-blue omnishow 3-4 times in that same time span. For the most part, if they lean on sneak attack I find the match almost a bye.

As for the UW decks, counterbalance was never the issue and they are still Terminus decks. Not much has changed in that matchup post-top.

EDIT
Spacing fix for clarity.

[calcymon]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15687&d=295920&f=LE

4x stoneforge maverick, still something i am thinking sometimes too



23 LANDS

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


24 CREATURES

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


9 INSTANTS and SORC.

1 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares


4 OTHER SPELLS

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte






i will probably try something similar
replacing 1 thalia e 1 decay for 2 mirri's guile so 4xzenith + 4xstoneforge + 8 fetches + knights will be used at best (power-shufflling!)
or maybe 4 thalia with 61 cards since with mirri + library u can avoid drawing the second thalia if not needed

and probably 1 equip into the side, like light and shadow or gusari




1 question :
4xmothers or 3x with 1x safekeeper?
it's always my doubt

[smutko]

After messing around with a lot of weird takes on various decks I decided to go back to basics and played this g/w list (or very nearly this list) to a 4-1 finish in a league tonight:

http://i.imgur.com/J2D2m32.png

lost to new miracles, beat DnT, aluren, new miracles, bug delver.

one difference between the list i played and what's posted was having a 2nd pridemage over the scryb ranger. I missed the ranger and added it back after the league but I also won a game wholly on the back of canopy'ing into a pridemage on the last possible turn to avoid dying to a jitte from DnT. So I also feel a little bad about cutting the 2nd pridemage. This deck also really wants a cradle to go with the tireless tracker, but I don't have one (yet). lastly, I dropped titania for an elspeth, knight errant. dunno which is actually better, but without the aforementioned cradle I don't think a zenith for titania end-game is actually viable. and even if it is sigarda is probably better.

overall the deck felt pretty good, though it also feels like it's much less of a knight deck than it used to be. or at least, the meta is such that knight was rarely the best thing I could be doing (though knight + mom + safe keeper was a KO game one against bug delver. then again in the 2nd game there were 3 active death rites and i never even played the knight in my hand.) on the flip side, rallier is great and is what I zenith for on 3 most often. baiting removal on stoneforge just to rallier it back is great. getting multiple uses out of pridemage is great. I even baited a miracles player into ambushing my teeg with a snapcaster and got it back. there are just so many lightning rods in this deck and there's a lot more bolt/decay/push than swords at the moment.

one card I occasionally want to play in the board though I've never actually gotten around to it: daybreak ranger. has anyone tried that guy? maybe if you're willing to splash red you just play huntmaster? I want a repeatable source of removal. maybe that's just punishing fire.

[montoy]

hi guys

what are your thoughts on running 3x SFM then (SOFI, SOLAS, jitte) over (SOFI, batterskull, jitte)

is the logic that on an unlucky draw BS will get stuck on your hand worse case that SFM doesn't show up.
that in a senario that you draw any of the sword or jitte, so you can play it anytime.

cheers (",)

[Megadeus]

After messing around with a lot of weird takes on various decks I decided to go back to basics and played this g/w list (or very nearly this list) to a 4-1 finish in a league tonight:

http://i.imgur.com/J2D2m32.png

lost to new miracles, beat DnT, aluren, new miracles, bug delver.

one difference between the list i played and what's posted was having a 2nd pridemage over the scryb ranger. I missed the ranger and added it back after the league but I also won a game wholly on the back of canopy'ing into a pridemage on the last possible turn to avoid dying to a jitte from DnT. So I also feel a little bad about cutting the 2nd pridemage. This deck also really wants a cradle to go with the tireless tracker, but I don't have one (yet). lastly, I dropped titania for an elspeth, knight errant. dunno which is actually better, but without the aforementioned cradle I don't think a zenith for titania end-game is actually viable. and even if it is sigarda is probably better.

overall the deck felt pretty good, though it also feels like it's much less of a knight deck than it used to be. or at least, the meta is such that knight was rarely the best thing I could be doing (though knight + mom + safe keeper was a KO game one against bug delver. then again in the 2nd game there were 3 active death rites and i never even played the knight in my hand.) on the flip side, rallier is great and is what I zenith for on 3 most often. baiting removal on stoneforge just to rallier it back is great. getting multiple uses out of pridemage is great. I even baited a miracles player into ambushing my teeg with a snapcaster and got it back. there are just so many lightning rods in this deck and there's a lot more bolt/decay/push than swords at the moment.

one card I occasionally want to play in the board though I've never actually gotten around to it: daybreak ranger. has anyone tried that guy? maybe if you're willing to splash red you just play huntmaster? I want a repeatable source of removal. maybe that's just punishing fire.
It's really slow, but Master of The Wild Hunt is also repeatable removal that also is a token generator and doesn't require a red splash

[tescrin]

I'd honestly cut a KotR for the QPM you desire. That's still *7* KotR in the maindeck. I don't think you'll hardly notice.

On worthwhile repeatable removal:
* Dudes who do it:
Grim Lavamancer
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage
Tooth Collector ... maybe.. If you have 4 types you can actually kill two things before they can respond.
* Life from the Loam + Barbarian Ring or Cabal Pit - Also removal that you can get from KotR!

Out of these, I've personally used Lavaman and Loam + Pit. Loam + Pit is quite good and pit being fetchable by KotR is handy without it being an engine. I like this one because it gets through Mom reliably.
Of note on PFire and similar against Mom: You can, in response, use your own Mom to give their dude protection from white, fizzlling their mom trigger and allowing your card to resolve.


All that said, I'd probably just look for Zealous Persecution or similar. Repeat Removal is fun but it's always clunky. You can get similar CA from boardwipes

[nicoleptik]

You can, in response, use your own Mom to give their dude protection from white, fizzlling their mom trigger and allowing your card to resolve.

Nope, Mom may target only your creatures

[calcymon]

hi guys

what are your thoughts on running 3x SFM then (SOFI, SOLAS, jitte) over (SOFI, batterskull, jitte)

is the logic that on an unlucky draw BS will get stuck on your hand worse case that SFM doesn't show up.
that in a senario that you draw any of the sword or jitte, so you can play it anytime.

cheers (",)


1 - the main issue of running sword of light and shadow main is the amount of delver decks that run shamans into the meta, when they will remove the target of your reanimation u will cry tears of blood

same reason i prefer not to run ralliers, in main deck u run kotr and shamans.... grave hates will kill u


2- batterskull costs rly much but many decks lose when u place it main : grixis + burn + bug ecc

3- light and shadow is good but not vs all decks, only vs 2-3 (taxes-deathblade-pikula-bug)

4- batterskull > decay

[TMagpie]

1 - the main issue of running sword of light and shadow main is the amount of delver decks that run shamans into the meta, when they will remove the target of your reanimation u will cry tears of blood

same reason i prefer not to run ralliers, in main deck u run kotr and shamans.... grave hates will kill u


2- batterskull costs rly much but many decks lose when u place it main : grixis + burn + bug ecc

3- light and shadow is good but not vs all decks, only vs 2-3 (taxes-deathblade-pikula-bug)

4- batterskull > decay

Its also important to remember that SOLAS protects your creatures from your own Mother of Runes, meaning Thalia with a SOLAS can be bolted, KotR with a SOLAS can be JTMS bounced, etc...

[T-101]

Its also important to remember that SOLAS protects your creatures from your own Mother of Runes, meaning Thalia with a SOLAS can be bolted, KotR with a SOLAS can be JTMS bounced, etc...

Yet another way in which SOLAS is awkward AF. In my experience, SOLAS rarely does anything. Dead guys are often eaten by DRS, exiled with StP, or tucked with Terminus anyways.

The card looks sweet, but it just isn't as useful and effective as the other 3 equips.

[Koby]

There's probably pages of discussion regarding equipment types to run.

The first pair of equipment is always undisputed Jitte and SoFI. The last piece is hotly debated between SoLS and Batterskull. I've tried both, and think that Batterskull is a crutch that isn't necessary in a well built Maverick deck. A typical Maverick list isn't constructed with 4 SFM to maximize opportunity to activate and reactive Batterskull. The lifegain is rarely important. Against Burn, while you improve the Game 1 opportunity to win, you are worse off in G2/3 because of more dedicated artifact destruction, limiting the chance to capitalize from an early SFM into Batterskull. If you want better cards against Burn, play Rhox War Monk or Circle of Protection: Red instead.

SoLS is better against Death & Taxes, as it gives protection against their entire decks minus Phyrexian Revoker. It's better against BUG as it gets past Deathrite Shaman. Batterskull is lacking in these matchups.

Situationally, you should be able to determine when you need SoFI or SoLS more.

The premise that SoLS is worse because a Thalia dies to Bolt misses the point that all of Maverick's creatures die to Bolt in all the turns leading to a Sword being equipped. Additionally, opponent removing a creature with DRS doesn't lessen SoLS's impact on the board. the recursion is gravy; but not necessary. If recursion was necessary, we'd see more Eternal Witness.

Bottom line, SoLS gives you more options for outplaying your opponent than Batterskull.

[TMagpie]

There's probably pages of discussion regarding equipment types to run.

The first pair of equipment is always undisputed Jitte and SoFI. The last piece is hotly debated between SoLS and Batterskull. I've tried both, and think that Batterskull is a crutch that isn't necessary in a well built Maverick deck. A typical Maverick list isn't constructed with 4 SFM to maximize opportunity to activate and reactive Batterskull. The lifegain is rarely important. Against Burn, while you improve the Game 1 opportunity to win, you are worse off in G2/3 because of more dedicated artifact destruction, limiting the chance to capitalize from an early SFM into Batterskull. If you want better cards against Burn, play Rhox War Monk or Circle of Protection: Red instead.

SoLS is better against Death & Taxes, as it gives protection against their entire decks minus Phyrexian Revoker. It's better against BUG as it gets past Deathrite Shaman. Batterskull is lacking in these matchups.

Situationally, you should be able to determine when you need SoFI or SoLS more.

The premise that SoLS is worse because a Thalia dies to Bolt misses the point that all of Maverick's creatures die to Bolt in all the turns leading to a Sword being equipped. Additionally, opponent removing a creature with DRS doesn't lessen SoLS's impact on the board. the recursion is gravy; but not necessary. If recursion was necessary, we'd see more Eternal Witness.

Bottom line, SoLS gives you more options for outplaying your opponent than Batterskull.

If what you want is situational life gain with limited evasion then I would rather run Loxodon Warhammer so that I get past D&T, Truename Nemesis, AND Elf Bounce tricks.

The ONLY reason SoLS is useful is because it stops Swords to Plowshares--a job Mother of Runes and arguable Sanctum Prelate already does better.

SoFI was not even used much at all UNTIL the printing of True-Name Nemesis. Everyone ran Batterskull and Jitte and people would argue over whether or not you wanted a SOFAF or just run two equipment. Pre-printing of True-Name the arguments were primarily whether or not you'd rather have 2x Jitte or 1x Jitte 1x Batterskull.

This is not to say that Batterskull is necessary. If you would rather run 2x Stoneforge Mystic then by all means cut the batterskull. The whole point of running 4 SFM and 1x Batterskull is so that we have a 2cc 4/4 that can outrace every non-reanimator threat in legacy. And realistically it outraces a few of those as well.

Batterskull is not an "answer" to decks--it is a threat, it a card that forces the opponent to answer it or die. Its used because once you have it in your hand, they have to kill the SFM or risk having the bouncing batterskull just run them out of removal as you keep remaking the token over and over again.

They are not in the same conversation nor are they fighting over the same slots JUST because they are both equipment. SoLAS is if you think 3 life a turn + evasion against death and taxes is worth a slot in your deck. That is it. Batterskull is if you want a threat that is resistant to late game removal and can be cheated early into play. That's it. They are different cards with different purposes.

If you think Maverick is proactive--then run BSkull
If you think Mavertick is reactive--then run SoLAS

[Koby]

SoFI was not even used much at all UNTIL the printing of True-Name Nemesis. Everyone ran Batterskull and Jitte and people would argue over whether or not you wanted a SOFAF or just run two equipment. Pre-printing of True-Name the arguments were primarily whether or not you'd rather have 2x Jitte or 1x Jitte 1x Batterskull.

Thats not even true, but you can play the deck however you want. You even mentioned you board out batterskull in your event report. Maverick simply isnt a SFM deck; it's a deck using SFM.

[Skizz]

Maverick simply isnt a SFM deck; it's a deck using SFM.
^^ this!

[TMagpie]

Thats not even true, but you can play the deck however you want. You even mentioned you board out batterskull in your event report. Maverick simply isnt a SFM deck; it's a deck using SFM.

I never argued that Maverick should be a SFM deck. I am simply pointing out why people use Batterskull, its purpose, and its role in the deck. Just as I said in my report--I would side it out when I didn't need a 4/4 beater without evasion (such as vs elves), I would have also sided out SoLAS had I used it.

In the past when I did use SOLAS it was a SB card for D&T and Burn. Since then the card has become irrelevant in those matchups as you don't need it to win either one.

If you enjoy running 4 SFM, then you should run BSkull. If you don't want to run the full SFM package then you shouldn't run BSkull. Its that simple.

But if I were to add a 3rd non-BSkull equipment, I would use SOFAF, SOBAM, SOWAP, and Loxodon Warhammer before I use SOLAS. And if I simply wanted to cut down to 2 SFM, I would simply run Jitte + SOFI and not run a 3rd equipment at all. And if they banned True-Name Nemesis, I woudn't even bother running SOFI and just go 2x Jitte.

SOLAS is that damn low in the totem pole.

[DoomRabbit]

SOLAS was another great angle vs Miracles, (SOLAS + teeg = GG before mentor was a thing) since the ban it's come out of my sideboard.
With the new miracles on the rise, that is once again a lock, but depends on the meta share of that deck, might not be worth the sideboard slot.

[Thunderknight]

Has anyone tried Blessed Alliance?

Now that the meta has shifted to more midrange/combo I believe it's a versatile card to have in SB

[Skizz]

i play 2 in sideboard at the moment and i think 1 is the right number and its worth a try against many creature based decks.. until now i only used the sac ability against my enemies - but also untapping a knight/mom or gain some life can be huge too for suprise effects

[TMagpie]

SOLAS was another great angle vs Miracles, (SOLAS + teeg = GG before mentor was a thing) since the ban it's come out of my sideboard.
With the new miracles on the rise, that is once again a lock, but depends on the meta share of that deck, might not be worth the sideboard slot.

How is that better than SOWAP which hits harder, gains more life, and protects Teeg from Rending Volley.

[tescrin]

How is that better than SOWAP which hits harder, gains more life, and protects Teeg from Rending Volley.

Because SoLaS is much better against the field if you're putting it in the main:
* Recurring dudes is CA
* Pro Black => Angler/Lage/Grisel/etc can't get you
* Pro White + Black => No legacy removal can hit your guy; so they have to find a Command/Decay/QPM or die
* Non-conditional Life gain is nice

I don't see how it's "Reactive" either. It's just a stappable CA engine that helps your stuff grind. BSK has issues with being equippable when you drop a guy, which can be a problem if you are top-decking and don't want to spend 8 mana. If instead you plop Mom on the field, give her a strap on, and go for it...

...well I mean.. no one wants that.

[TMagpie]

Because SoLaS is much better against the field if you're putting it in the main:
* Recurring dudes is CA
* Pro Black => Angler/Lage/Grisel/etc can't get you
* Pro White + Black => No legacy removal can hit your guy; so they have to find a Command/Decay/QPM or die
* Non-conditional Life gain is nice

I don't see how it's "Reactive" either. It's just a stappable CA engine that helps your stuff grind. BSK has issues with being equippable when you drop a guy, which can be a problem if you are top-decking and don't want to spend 8 mana. If instead you plop Mom on the field, give her a strap on, and go for it...

...well I mean.. no one wants that.

Wait--so you believe SOLAS is card advantage in a Deathrite meta and then argue about chump blocking flyers and Anglers who are already trumped by KotR?

And yes--arguing that you're safer from removal makes this card reactive, especially since it makes your creatures unsafe from burn and bounce since mom can't help them.

Also, do you see how none of what you're talking about is proactive? Everything is about blocking flyers with a Scryb Ranger (your other guys don't fly FYI) and the other goal you have is hoping to not face plow, Deathrite, Terminus, scooze, Rest In Peace, etc... thank god those don't exist in large numbers in today's BR Reanimator meta. But at least you can beat BUG decks with your non-SOfAf equipment.

It's fairly bad. There are better cards out there.

[TMagpie]

I'm being too aggressive, let me restate my question.

What specific matchup are you imagining where hitting the opponent with a Jitte is not good enough so you end up running Sword of Light and Shadow instead? Remember, it's not like you're already at 5 Jittes and so you're forced to run this as your 5th Jitte. So the equipment has to be better than Jitte to be worth the slot.

There is only 1 reason I run SOFI in my maindeck. Because the one board state where it's difficult to get through without a Sofi is versus Truename Nemesis. Sure, SOFI has uses outside of True-Name but a majority of the time an Umezawa's Jitte would be as good.

I run Batterskull because I think Maverick is an aggressive deck that aims to attack the opponent as often as possible. So running a 2cc 4/4 vigilant lifelink creature helps my plan of being an aggressive deck.

I have very specific reasons I run each of the equipment and all of them rerouted to the question of "is this better than a Mom protecting an active Jitte"

If the answer is no--then it's pointless to run the equipment over just running a Jitte.

[Koby]

Rending Volley.

Is this a card that's played in Legacy?


I have very specific reasons I run each of the equipment and all of them rerouted to the question of "is this better than a Mom protecting an active Jitte"
Mother of Runes is not available in every game, nor may be alive in every game. The Swords are useful in that context to provide continuous protection in lieu of Mom.

Nothing about SFM/Batterskull screams "this is aggressive." It's a slow strategy that requires 4 mana commitment over 2 turns.

[TMagpie]

Is this a card that's played in Legacy?


Mother of Runes is not available in every game, nor may be alive in every game. The Swords are useful in that context to provide continuous protection in lieu of Mom.

Nothing about SFM/Batterskull screams "this is aggressive." It's a slow strategy that requires 4 mana commitment over 2 turns.

6 mana commitment over 3 turns to mimic a Mother of Runes is not a proactive strategy. Hoping a 5 mana sorcery speed spell will help you survive cheap removal is also folly.

EDIT

Rending Volley is gaining traction in TES and Storm lists as a post Abrupt Decay option to kill hatebears and delvers that is cheap, instant, and can't be countered.

Also, a 4/4 on turn 3 after a cantrip creature on turn 2 that can race a goyf is aggressive. For the same reason a 4/4 Knight on turn 3 is also aggressive.

[maharis]

This build is experimental, but I did 3-2 a league with it. Beat Esper Stoneblade, Storm and Manaless and lost to Miracles and Eldrazi (but he had to topdeck All is Dust in game 3 to win).

I can't say I really missed the Dryad Arbor/4 zenith package, Oath does a lot to smooth out draws and lets you keep some iffier hands without worry about screw/flood or your mana dork getting removed. Bob was neutral, was hoping for more from him but it was more that i never really wanted or needed it when i didn't have it. Best cards were SFM and Sigarda. Like no decks can beat a Sigarda. Titania is probably overkill, I think I might just play Rallier.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Mirran Crusader

[tescrin]

stuff
Did you know that no Creature cards are ever in the grave ever because Deathrite?
I've never even seen a 4/5 tarmogoyf before. Can he get that big?

Also, playing an offensive card that *can* get CA and has relevant protections against the meta is worse than one that can *never* get CA and has protections that are useless against Decay and Push and Dismember is reactive. My logic foiled again! I should quit being such a reactionary.

SoWaP :eek: truly the end all be all of equips

Forgive me, for I have been humbled by the internet :cry:



EDIT: Being more serious; I'd advocate SoBaM as Wolves aren't bad, TNN/Strix/Goyf/Knight/etc.. can't block you, and milling is almost irrelevant except against Reanimator and maybe grixis. I'm not confident enough that I'm running it, but my loaner Bant deck is :D

[Koby]

6 mana commitment over 3 turns to mimic a Mother of Runes is not a proactive strategy. Hoping a 5 mana sorcery speed spell will help you survive cheap removal is also folly.

EDIT

Rending Volley is gaining traction in TES and Storm lists as a post Abrupt Decay option to kill hatebears and delvers that is cheap, instant, and can't be countered.

Also, a 4/4 on turn 3 after a cantrip creature on turn 2 that can race a goyf is aggressive. For the same reason a 4/4 Knight on turn 3 is also aggressive.

Not sure I would keep any SFM against storm. Too slow and prone to be snagged by discard. Also, as you keep harping "Mother of Runes fixes that problem". I don't see how Rending Volley is relevant in evaluation of Sword of L&S vs Batterskull as maindeck equipment.

[TMagpie]

Did you know that no Creature cards are ever in the grave ever because Deathrite?
I've never even seen a 4/5 tarmogoyf before. Can he get that big?

Also, playing an offensive card that *can* get CA and has relevant protections against the meta is worse than one that can *never* get CA and has protections that are useless against Decay and Push and Dismember is reactive. My logic foiled again! I should quit being such a reactionary.

SoWaP :eek: truly the end all be all of equips

Forgive me, for I have been humbled by the internet :cry:



EDIT: Being more serious; I'd advocate SoBaM as Wolves aren't bad, TNN/Strix/Goyf/Knight/etc.. can't block you, and milling is almost irrelevant except against Reanimator and maybe grixis. I'm not confident enough that I'm running it, but my loaner Bant deck is :D

Playing a life gain card because you're afraid of Mother of Runes sounds like the exact opposite of what direction Maverick wants to do. Playing the pro-white life gain card against the Plow/Terminus deck sounds like the opposite direction of what you want Maverick to do.

As for Goyf, in the games I play he reaches 4/5 or 5/6 for about 1-2 turns before very quickly shrinking back down to 2/3.

In the games I play, removal hurts in the first few turns of the game but once you get to turns 6-7 you don't really care what removal your opponent runs. And if I was afraid of removal I would just add a Sylvan Safekeeper in my list instead of a 3cc artifact that needs 2 to attach to a creature in order to protect that creature from some of the removal spells of the format.

As I said, this is from my experience playing the card for over a year. There was only 1 matchup where it actually felt powerful--and that was Death and Taxes. And in hindsight, War and Peace would have just ended those games much faster. In hindsight, had I just had a 2nd Jitte instead of a SOLAS I would have won those games much easier. In hindsight, I would rather run Zealous Persecution if I wanted a card to affect that matchup.

Also, I wouldn't call a card whose main thing it does is gain you 3 life a turn offensive. Unless you mean it offends you to see that comparison.

[TMagpie]

Not sure I would keep any SFM against storm. Too slow and prone to be snagged by discard. Also, as you keep harping "Mother of Runes fixes that problem". I don't see how Rending Volley is relevant in evaluation of Sword of L&S vs Batterskull as maindeck equipment.

If you don't think Stoneforge is useful against storm then its obvious you haven't played that matchup very heavily.

[TMagpie]

Apologies for the last two pages. I was unnecessarily aggressive. I will cool things off for a few days.

[Koby]

Apologies for the last two pages. I was unnecessarily aggressive. I will cool things off for a few days.

I've probably played more matches with Maverick than all but a handful of pilots in europe. Feel free to ready pages 50-150 of this thread if you'd like context.

[DoomRabbit]

If you don't think Stoneforge is useful against storm then its obvious you haven't played that matchup very heavily.

Just out of interest, why keep SFM in against storm? I usually cut them out because equipment does nothing turns 1-2-3, and I'd much rather be playing more hatebears/discard anyway.
And I play against ANT close to weekly and have a fairly good win rate.

TES wrecks me constantly though.

[timmyod17]

I've been reading a fair bit about the resurgence of the post-ban "Miracles" deck. I have not yet faced this deck (I only play paper, not MTGO) and was wondering if others here had any experience against it. I would assume we would have a somewhat better, though still slightly unfavorable, matchup. Is this assumption correct? Have people found that most Miracles pilots are now playing this version?

After the SDT ban, I personally made a few minor adjustments to my 75 (cut the sideboard Teeg, cut the sideboard SoLAS, cut the Cavern of Souls, cut an Abrupt Decay). I'm preparing for a few larger tournaments in the next two weeks - in an open meta, is it perhaps worth hedging a little bit and adding back some anti-Miracles cards (e.g. Teeg #2)?

[Ilnez]

I've been reading a fair bit about the resurgence of the post-ban "Miracles" deck. I have not yet faced this deck (I only play paper, not MTGO) and was wondering if others here had any experience against it. I would assume we would have a somewhat better, though still slightly unfavorable, matchup. Is this assumption correct? Have people found that most Miracles pilots are now playing this version?

After the SDT ban, I personally made a few minor adjustments to my 75 (cut the sideboard Teeg, cut the sideboard SoLAS, cut the Cavern of Souls, cut an Abrupt Decay). I'm preparing for a few larger tournaments in the next two weeks - in an open meta, is it perhaps worth hedging a little bit and adding back some anti-Miracles cards (e.g. Teeg #2)?

I'm probably quite an inaccurate assessment, since I'm very new with this deck, but the matchup seems just as unfavorable as it ever has.

Game 1 my opponent Terminus'ed me on 3-7-8-11 and killed me with Jace.

Game 2 my opponent Terminus'ed me 3 times in 7 turns. He was Terminus'ing 1 creature but with Swords-Snap-Swords it was rough.

The new Miracles deck feels just as good as old Miracles. =/

[ET1]

I think when discussing the 3rd equipment flex slot everyone needs to keep in mind the context of the discussion. I believe Koby mentioned maverick is not a stoneforge deck, but a deck that uses stoneforge. I 100% agree with this assertion as most of us are playing the typical 2 stoneforges. However TMagpie is clearly in some disagreement with that as he runs the full 4 stoneforges. This makes it far more likely that he can still make good use of batterskull after the token is killed with additional stoneforges. Most maverick lists don't have the same luxury. In the context of TMagpie's specific list batterskull does seem like a much better option than in most maverick lists.

As for the storm match-up and sideboarding. I personally side out my stoneforges, however once again stoneforge is a much bigger part of TMagpie's game plan. Different context, different decisions.

As for my thoughts, I run sword of light and shadow in the side and have consistently found it to be awesome. Against any UWx or BUG deck it's pretty nuts as not only does it turn every card into a threat (proactive) and CA engine it also protects the creature from just about any form of legacy removal. Sure you can argue that you can still bolt a mom equipped with it or a dryad arbor equipped with it, but generally, bolt isn't all that played of a card outside of Grixis delver and burn. Additionally I rarely have found myself stapling a sword to a 1 toughness creature and that's easy to play around where you may be afraid of a bolt.

I used to run sword of light and shadow in the maindeck, but it has at times felt a bit clunky and isn't always what you want to be seeing. In the sideboard it has been outstanding.

[menloe]

I'm probably quite an inaccurate assessment, since I'm very new with this deck, but the matchup seems just as unfavorable as it ever has.

Game 1 my opponent Terminus'ed me on 3-7-8-11 and killed me with Jace.

Game 2 my opponent Terminus'ed me 3 times in 7 turns. He was Terminus'ing 1 creature but with Swords-Snap-Swords it was rough.

The new Miracles deck feels just as good as old Miracles. =/

I wonder how the "SDT died for Terminus' sins" crowd feels about this. According to them, UW Top Control was fine before WotC introduced the miracles mechanic, and it was Terminus above all else that made the deck so good that every Tom, Dick, and Spike had to play it. It seems the archetype is still functional and, at least at present, more viable than most of the decks we predicted would see a resurgence in a Topless world.

Would we be saying the same thing if they had banned Terminus instead of SDT? I don't know. But I am glad that Miracles is still a thing without SDT. (A) It shows that WotC is capable of making reasonable banning decisions that have more or less their intended effect and don't completely invalidate an archetype; (B) I don't have to watch grown men laboriously jerkin' it in public if I don't want to; and, (C), this iteration, while playing innately powerful cards, is eminently more beatable than the previous iteration. That isn't to say we're favored, but it feels way closer. Sitting down to play old Miracles was more of a "Fuck my life" sort of thing whereas new Miracles is more of a "Do it to it" sort of thing.

I should say that I haven't really changed my sideboard since the ban and still run an x2 split of Teeg, Aven Mindcensor in the main, x1 Revoker, x1 Needle, and x2 Choke in the sideboard. These have all done good work for me against Topless Miracles. Also, I am usually on Punishing Maverick, which helps with almost all of the creatures this deck runs/produces and can give Jace fits.

I do apologize if any of the above is way off. I am still relatively new to the scene too. Just some impressions.

[TMagpie]

The new Miracles list is better against fair decks than the previous one but worse against combo. Imagine old miracles but has double the spells they need to dig for Terminus.

As for storm and TES, Batterskull is something that cuts off their warrens kills and for the faster lists like TES and Belcher, often hard counters that line of play forcing them into force their hands to lean on their non-warrens kills which means they are more suceptible to discard and mana constrictions.

[maharis]

The new Miracles list is better against fair decks than the previous one but worse against combo. Imagine old miracles but has double the spells they need to dig for Terminus.

The old version had Top which was like an extra spell or two to dig for Terminus every turn, depending on fetchlands...

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think this deck is nearly as consistent. Old miracles murdered fair decks. You just had no chance because the choice was overextend into Terminus/plow-snap-plow or get locked out by Counterbalance. Only having to fight on the one axis is much easier.

[TMagpie]

The old version had Top which was like an extra spell or two to dig for Terminus every turn, depending on fetchlands...

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think this deck is nearly as consistent. Old miracles murdered fair decks. You just had no chance because the choice was overextend into Terminus/plow-snap-plow or get locked out by Counterbalance. Only having to fight on the one axis is much easier.

The old version had 4 brainstorm 4 Top 2 ponder 2 predict on average.

This version has 4 brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Portent 4 Predict on average.

When it comes to digging through your deck this is better. It does not control the top of your deck as well, and it doesn't control your draws as well, but the "oh shit I need this card like right fucking now" the deck runs 25% more ways to burn through itself at the cost of counterbalance.

Yes, you no longer have to worry about counterbalance. But the deck also draws its answers more often. The biggest weakness to this current list, and it's a real one, is it has transformed from being the deck warping combo lists to fight through its lock into a deck that sometimes runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard because it fears combo so much. This makes its performance overall so much weaker and so much easier to dodge. Yes, you'll often get wrecked by Terminus + plow/snap/plow, but they also get wrecked by ANT for being a countermagic deck without pressure.

[timmyod17]

The old version had 4 brainstorm 4 Top 2 ponder 2 predict on average.

This version has 4 brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Portent 4 Predict on average.

When it comes to digging through your deck this is better. It does not control the top of your deck as well, and it doesn't control your draws as well, but the "oh shit I need this card like right fucking now" the deck runs 25% more ways to burn through itself at the cost of counterbalance.

Yes, you no longer have to worry about counterbalance. But the deck also draws its answers more often. The biggest weakness to this current list, and it's a real one, is it has transformed from being the deck warping combo lists to fight through its lock into a deck that sometimes runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard because it fears combo so much. This makes its performance overall so much weaker and so much easier to dodge. Yes, you'll often get wrecked by Terminus + plow/snap/plow, but they also get wrecked by ANT for being a countermagic deck without pressure.

It seems like this new version would be quite soft to Prelate on 1 or any non-creature hate (Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, Library, any PW, any equips). The 1-2 copies of Unexpectedly Absent (and maybe 1x disenchant in the SB) seems light to handle those permanents. I haven't seen any decklists running Council's Judgment or EE, either. And given that most of the lists seem to be straight U/W, there's no Wear//Tear either (or Blood Moon, for that matter).

I guess the amount to which we want to specifically prepare for Miracles boils down to two things:
1. How many diehard Miracles pilots stick with their decks post-ban.
2. How much less often do we expect to encounter this deck in the later rounds or top 8, given how much worse it is against combo decks

Perhaps we can expect this deck to comprise 6-7% of the meta now, as opposed to the 15% it took up previously.

[pettdan]

It seems like this new version would be quite soft to Prelate on 1 or any non-creature hate (Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, Library, any PW, any equips). The 1-2 copies of Unexpectedly Absent (and maybe 1x disenchant in the SB) seems light to handle those permanents. I haven't seen any decklists running Council's Judgment or EE, either. And given that most of the lists seem to be straight U/W, there's no Wear//Tear either (or Blood Moon, for that matter).

I'm not familiar with this new version yet but was wondering about this, also thinking that Prelate and Chalice seem very good - and Choke. With Top around they used to be able to use their plains to spin top while looking for the Wear/Tear but since all their library manipulation is now blue a Choke is more efficient vs them than it used to be. If Wear/Tear is out that is really good news for Choke as a hate card. No longer do you need to expose yourself to 1-for-2's to be able to put pressure on them. Also I was thinking that Loaming for Ghost Quarters seems inevitable now that they lack the one-sided Chalice for any CMC.

[TMagpie]

It seems like this new version would be quite soft to Prelate on 1 or any non-creature hate (Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, Library, any PW, any equips). The 1-2 copies of Unexpectedly Absent (and maybe 1x disenchant in the SB) seems light to handle those permanents. I haven't seen any decklists running Council's Judgment or EE, either. And given that most of the lists seem to be straight U/W, there's no Wear//Tear either (or Blood Moon, for that matter).

I guess the amount to which we want to specifically prepare for Miracles boils down to two things:
1. How many diehard Miracles pilots stick with their decks post-ban.
2. How much less often do we expect to encounter this deck in the later rounds or top 8, given how much worse it is against combo decks

Perhaps we can expect this deck to comprise 6-7% of the meta now, as opposed to the 15% it took up previously.

Strangely it's the opposite.

The deck has a much easier time handling non-creatures than older lists. One of the things my friends like about it the most has been how much stronger it is at answering cards like choke, planeswalkers, etc...

But you're also correct at how good it is versus Prelate on 1 + Teeg. Most versions can't win from that board state. There are some splashing red for Kozilek's Return but apart from that it's struggling.

The increased card draw + increased density of hard answers (as opposed to Counterbalance) has made them a lot better in the "normal" control role. It's also a lot slower because, without toplock or Storming off with Mentor, it's actually fairly weak to at transitioning into closing out the game.

Edit:

For clarification--effects of permanent based disruption is more impacting because they lack top. The difference is that they are more likely to have an immediate answer now, because they have to. In the top days they could run 1-2 answers and just Top for 4-5 turns until they get it. This version just runs out rite more of answers and card draw in the 75 making it more likely they already have te answer. But if they tap out into a choke--they're effectively dead.

[DoomRabbit]

But you're also correct at how good it is versus Prelate on 1 + Teeg. Most versions can't win from that board state.

Played a bunch of practice games against the deck, and the above is very true.
I won a game with prelate on 1 prelate on 2 and teeg, and they couldn't cast any noncreature spells at all.

Also with regards to non creature permanents, they lean hard on unexpectedly absent to deal with them, which makes teeg very very good.

[maharis]

Over the past couple days of playing this deck online I've discovered that people just scoop to Sigarda, it's pretty hilarious.

[Luthiereisfun]

http://www.ovinotournament.com/legacy-side-event/#1472664870636-4c738e69-9a63

Very interesting Maverick list got 1st at this event. Notably it's running 8 dorks with lots of 3 drops. 4x KOTR 2x New Thalia 2x Aven Mindcensor and a Tireless Tracker

[TMagpie]

http://www.ovinotournament.com/legacy-side-event/#1472664870636-4c738e69-9a63

Very interesting Maverick list got 1st at this event. Notably it's running 8 dorks with lots of 3 drops. 4x KOTR 2x New Thalia 2x Aven Mindcensor and a Tireless Tracker

8 dorks + 3drops is the start of the Reid Duke list isn't it? Interesting to see it in a more all in shell: 12 mana dorks, 9 3drops

[timmyod17]

8 dorks + 3drops is the start of the Reid Duke list isn't it? Interesting to see it in a more all in shell: 12 mana dorks, 9 3drops

That is pretty interesting indeed. Especially in a world full of Fatal Push. Personally would love to see some Sanctum Prelates in a list like this instead of the Mindcensors, but pretty sweet list.

[Smarty744]

I've only been playing this deck for a few weeks, but I'm just about to put in the money for a Cradle. Im wondering what the advantages are to playing the Cradle and Canopy over the Dark Depths package? Do you guys ever switch?

[TMagpie]

I've only been playing this deck for a few weeks, but I'm just about to put in the money for a Cradle. Im wondering what the advantages are to playing the Cradle and Canopy over the Dark Depths package? Do you guys ever switch?

In my experience there is equal advantages for all three options (Cradle, Depths, or Neither)

The best mana base doesn't run either card, the worst mana base with a biggest upside is Deths, And cradle is the lovely in-between where you mana is better so long as you already have a board out, but has zero upside if you don't have a board out.

Do you want the minimum amount of drawback? Don't run either.
Do you want something that works when you already have a bunch of guys out? Run Cradle.
Do you want to have an out should you be on the backfoot no matter what position you are in? Run Depths.

Not everyone agrees with my thoughts on this topic--and it would be best for you to let play-testing decide which one you want as opposed to some guy in a forum.

I've had most success with the Dark Depths plan--I can walk you through why I'm such a fan of Thespian Stage. But you really need to have a more specific thing you're looking to do with said lands more than just "they're really powerful I should run them."

[ET1]

Do you want the minimum amount of drawback? Don't run either.
Do you want something that works when you already have a bunch of guys out? Run Cradle.
Do you want to have an out should you be on the backfoot no matter what position you are in? Run Depths.


This is certainly a little bit biased. But i do agree that depths can win you games you should have no business winning. It does however come at a cost, you need to mulligan several hands that would've been made much less awkward without stage/depths. The combo can be a quick way to close out combo match-ups, but i do feel it's best against fair decks where even the threat of the combo forces your opponent to try to play around it. Additionally lots of fair decks have no answer to a lage and it just wins on the spot. It also happens to win boardstall's quite nicely, especially the ones where you can't feasibly attack without dying on the crackback.

Cradle has significant upside as well, and at a lower cost. I generally find that cradle is best in helping to cast two two-drops turn 2 or to power out equipment. Without cradle equipment generally feel far slower and kinda clunky. Equipment become significantly better with cradle. The downside to cradle is that in match-ups where your board is more likely to be under pressure it's a bit lackluster. Mainly match-ups where your opponent is trying to kill everything you play.

I do agree with the assessment that depths provides the biggest upside at the largest cost, where as cradle still provides significant upside while still having a cost.

I switched to cradle a little more than a month ago and have found it better in my current meta. Used to be mostly made up of grindy fair decks, but combo decks are now far more represented and I feel like cradle is generally more consistent.

[pettdan]

There was some discussion from this post and one page forward too:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=986461&viewfull=1#post986461

I personally tend to play Depths based on meta considerations only and with Cradle as the default. Cradle allows you to use KotR to triple waste an opponent and then get Cradle after that for a very strong mana advantage. It also allows you to ramp into a quick GSZ for a 5-drop or play an equipment, equip and attack in the same turn, both those plays feel like cheating and can be game winning. While Depths is often a dead draw, it thus reduces your consistency and that's why I tend to play it only if the meta seems weak to it.

[TMagpie]

This is certainly a little bit biased. But i do agree that depths can win you games you should have no business winning. It does however come at a cost, you need to mulligan several hands that would've been made much less awkward without stage/depths. The combo can be a quick way to close out combo match-ups, but i do feel it's best against fair decks where even the threat of the combo forces your opponent to try to play around it. Additionally lots of fair decks have no answer to a lage and it just wins on the spot. It also happens to win boardstall's quite nicely, especially the ones where you can't feasibly attack without dying on the crackback.

Cradle has significant upside as well, and at a lower cost. I generally find that cradle is best in helping to cast two two-drops turn 2 or to power out equipment. Without cradle equipment generally feel far slower and kinda clunky. Equipment become significantly better with cradle. The downside to cradle is that in match-ups where your board is more likely to be under pressure it's a bit lackluster. Mainly match-ups where your opponent is trying to kill everything you play.

I do agree with the assessment that depths provides the biggest upside at the largest cost, where as cradle still provides significant upside while still having a cost.

I switched to cradle a little more than a month ago and have found it better in my current meta. Used to be mostly made up of grindy fair decks, but combo decks are now far more represented and I feel like cradle is generally more consistent.

No substantial disagreements with me on your analysis as well. For example--I've won majority of my elves matchups primarily because I run the Dark Depths package (which is combo) but I immediately side it out vs D&T specifically because they run 2-3 Karakas 4 Flickerwhisps 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Wasteland and 0-1 Palace Jailers (a fair matchup); but I also know that both of those are anomalies compared to the rest of the meta.

The main thing I would like to re-emphasize is that no matter which package you lean on, you need to build with that card in mind. Cradle is useless without equipment/fatties/clue Tokens to use all that mana on while Depths Package is pointless if you cram too many black spells in the main due to having less lands that produce colored mana.

Have a purpose you are aiming for, don't lean on just card power alone.

[Smarty744]

I appreciate all the info, I have a lot of elves in my meta, as well as a lot of combo-ish decks and I think that it would help with those difficult matchups. Is there any fatties you guys would recommend if I do decide to play cradle? I've heard Titania and Sigarda are bombs most of the time.

[Luthiereisfun]

I appreciate all the info, I have a lot of elves in my meta, as well as a lot of combo-ish decks and I think that it would help with those difficult matchups. Is there any fatties you guys would recommend if I do decide to play cradle? I've heard Titania and Sigarda are bombs most of the time.

TBH if there's a lot of elves/combo I wouldn't run a big creature MD. Sigarda and Titania are both great for different reasons. I tend to prefer Sigarda for just how much of a house it is against certain decks like BUG. Titania is more vulnerable but has speed and can be absolutely nuts.

[ET1]

I appreciate all the info, I have a lot of elves in my meta, as well as a lot of combo-ish decks and I think that it would help with those difficult matchups. Is there any fatties you guys would recommend if I do decide to play cradle? I've heard Titania and Sigarda are bombs most of the time.

Additionally I run cradle without a big 5 drop. I find that I rarely ever have 5 mana without a cradle, and the presence of a 5 drop seems really inconsistent. I rather just have the equipment which cradle can then turbo-charge by both playing and equipping in the same turn.

[TMagpie]

My favorite fatty with Cradle is Batterskull.

[pettdan]

Additionally I run cradle without a big 5 drop. I find that I rarely ever have 5 mana without a cradle, and the presence of a 5 drop seems really inconsistent. I rather just have the equipment which cradle can then turbo-charge by both playing and equipping in the same turn.

I think running Cradle -with- a 5-drop can be compared to running Stage with Depths:
- The Depths is dead without a Stage in play, similarly the 5-drop is dead without 5 mana.
- Depths can be tutored for by KotR and the 5-drop can be tutored for with a GSZ.
- Depths with Stage can end the game quickly, so can Titania. Sigarda takes a few turns but can do that too.

Major differences are that a 5-drop doesn't need any "combo" to be assembled, getting to 5 mana is usually quite easy (Deathrite, Scryb Ranger, KotR all help with providing extra mana). Also while Depths + Stage give you card disadvantage when you go for the combo, Titania gives you card advantage both by providing both an extra land and multiple free 5/3 creatures. Titania is turned off by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. Also Titania is easier to interact with than Marit Lage, but it's worth mentioning that with Karakas you can protect Titania while creating a quasi Loam-loop without investing cards (tapping Cradle + Karakas is usually enough to replay it every turn due to the extra tokens you're getting).

Edit: I think playing Cradle exposes you to sweepers and makes your manabase less stable, but it is outweighed according to most of us by enabling powerful plays using equipment primarily but also other manadumps such as Tracker and Ooze. The question is if you want to add the inconsistent element of a 5-drop to win fair matchups. As results published in this thread seem to have been indicating a stock list is just fine, which means no 5-drop or Depths should be needed. Now with the conclusion that Cradle is worth running because the tradeoff between power and consistency seems to be worth it, giving up Cradle in order to play Stage seems to be a second disadvantage of the Depths + Stage package in addition to the often dead draw of the Depths in itself. Personally I'm used to playing Nic Fit and I find it just absurd to be able to ramp as hard as that deck, by fetching Cradle, while staying on a mana denial Wasteland strategy. I tried a stock list and didn't like it. Also I play in a relatively fair meta and I think the 5-drop gives me an edge in fair matches. I rarely have a problem with getting to 5-6 mana in fair matches and whenever I get there the opponent has to present a FoW or lose on the spot. In a more combo oriented meta I could see skipping it, but e.g. vs Sneak and Show or Omnisneak, Titania kills them if they try to attack with Emrakul. It's vs the fast combo decks that it's pretty useless. But it's not like I would change the 5-drop into a card that is great in the fast combo-matchups anyway..

[aspsnake]

In my experience there is equal advantages for all three options (Cradle, Depths, or Neither)

The best mana base doesn't run either card, the worst mana base with a biggest upside is Deths, And cradle is the lovely in-between where you mana is better so long as you already have a board out, but has zero upside if you don't have a board out.

Do you want the minimum amount of drawback? Don't run either.
Do you want something that works when you already have a bunch of guys out? Run Cradle.
Do you want to have an out should you be on the backfoot no matter what position you are in? Run Depths.

Not everyone agrees with my thoughts on this topic--and it would be best for you to let play-testing decide which one you want as opposed to some guy in a forum.

I've had most success with the Dark Depths plan--I can walk you through why I'm such a fan of Thespian Stage. But you really need to have a more specific thing you're looking to do with said lands more than just "they're really powerful I should run them."

Technically, DD doesn't disrupt the manabase since it takes a spell slot, but Thespian Stage makes the manabase worse indeed.

[TMagpie]

Technically, DD doesn't disrupt the manabase since it takes a spell slot, but Thespian Stage makes the manabase worse indeed.

In defense of Stage--I have won lots of games because I've used the stage to copy other lands than just Dark Depths. Double Maze vs reanimator, double Arbor vs miracles, extra card draw when flooding by copying horizon canopy and saccing both, etc...

Its not just a card for the combo.

[ET1]

I think running Cradle -with- a 5-drop can be compared to running Stage with Depths:
- The Depths is dead without a Stage in play, similarly the 5-drop is dead without 5 mana.
- Depths can be tutored for by KotR and the 5-drop can be tutored for with a GSZ.
- Depths with Stage can end the game quickly, so can Titania. Sigarda takes a few turns but can do that too.

Major differences are that a 5-drop doesn't need any "combo" to be assembled, getting to 5 mana is usually quite easy (Deathrite, Scryb Ranger, KotR all help with providing extra mana). Also while Depths + Stage give you card disadvantage when you go for the combo, Titania gives you card advantage both by providing both an extra land and multiple free 5/3 creatures. Titania is turned off by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. Also Titania is easier to interact with than Marit Lage, but it's worth mentioning that with Karakas you can protect Titania while creating a quasi Loam-loop without investing cards (tapping Cradle + Karakas is usually enough to replay it every turn due to the extra tokens you're getting).

Edit: I think playing Cradle exposes you to sweepers and makes your manabase less stable, but it is outweighed according to most of us by enabling powerful plays using equipment primarily but also other manadumps such as Tracker and Ooze. The question is if you want to add the inconsistent element of a 5-drop to win fair matchups. As results published in this thread seem to have been indicating a stock list is just fine, which means no 5-drop or Depths should be needed. Now with the conclusion that Cradle is worth running because the tradeoff between power and consistency seems to be worth it, giving up Cradle in order to play Stage seems to be a second disadvantage of the Depths + Stage package in addition to the often dead draw of the Depths in itself. Personally I'm used to playing Nic Fit and I find it just absurd to be able to ramp as hard as that deck, by fetching Cradle, while staying on a mana denial Wasteland strategy. I tried a stock list and didn't like it. Also I play in a relatively fair meta and I think the 5-drop gives me an edge in fair matches. I rarely have a problem with getting to 5-6 mana in fair matches and whenever I get there the opponent has to present a FoW or lose on the spot. In a more combo oriented meta I could see skipping it, but e.g. vs Sneak and Show or Omnisneak, Titania kills them if they try to attack with Emrakul. It's vs the fast combo decks that it's pretty useless. But it's not like I would change the 5-drop into a card that is great in the fast combo-matchups anyway..

I like your analysis, I agree with just about all of it, which is also why I'm not running either depths or a 5 drop currently. Meta just seems hostile to it. If the meta shifts I may try running a titania. I also do believe that the reason to run depths over cradle + 5 drop is that it just ends the game on the spot. Plenty of those fair decks don't actually have an answer to a lage, whereas generally those same decks do have an answer to titania (however probably no answers for a sigarda). Also as TMagpie has mentioned depths does just win you games that a titania or sigarda wouldn't.

[Claymore]

Managed to go 3-0 in the weekly with GWb Maverick (2-0 Grixis delver, 2-1 Burn, 2-0 Turbo Depths). Spice I had main was 1x of Bind, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Renegade Rallier. Had the Depths combo main. SFM package was 2x SFM, Jitte + SoFI.

I never drew the bind except when it was discarded by Turbo (which was still key), the Safekeeper was only a chump block against Delver, and Rallier didn't do too much but would've been good against Turbo when Karakas was destroyed - but the Rallier was already dead.

I managed to mostly luck my way through the night, with a misplay by Grixis plus completely whiffing on draws that eventually gave me the edge for the match, and then getting early Jittes against Burn.

The Depths combo did give me a win against Delver but that match was mostly decided already. I was able to use Thespian Stage to get my own Marit Lage against Turbo. And oddly enough, the combo of Mother of Runes + Birds of Paradise managed to hold off Turbo Depths for long enough to get more lock pieces out.

I've been playing decks with the Depths splash in this meta of Show and Tell, DnT, Delver etc and don't feel it's strong enough. It feels vulnerable (except against Grixis, but set up takes forever) and there might be better utility to put into that slot. Something like Volrath's Stronghold, Yavimaya Hollow, Cabal Pit could be decent...

Sanctum Prelate would have been very good as well, I'll have to get some of those. Deathrite Shaman and Sryb Range were key cards all night. I did get completely savaged by Harsh Mentor in Burn.

[Luthiereisfun]

Managed to go 3-0 in the weekly with GWb Maverick (2-0 Grixis delver, 2-1 Burn, 2-0 Turbo Depths). Spice I had main was 1x of Bind, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Renegade Rallier. Had the Depths combo main. SFM package was 2x SFM, Jitte + SoFI.

I never drew the bind except when it was discarded by Turbo (which was still key), the Safekeeper was only a chump block against Delver, and Rallier didn't do too much but would've been good against Turbo when Karakas was destroyed - but the Rallier was already dead.

I managed to mostly luck my way through the night, with a misplay by Grixis plus completely whiffing on draws that eventually gave me the edge for the match, and then getting early Jittes against Burn.

The Depths combo did give me a win against Delver but that match was mostly decided already. I was able to use Thespian Stage to get my own Marit Lage against Turbo. And oddly enough, the combo of Mother of Runes + Birds of Paradise managed to hold off Turbo Depths for long enough to get more lock pieces out.

I've been playing decks with the Depths splash in this meta of Show and Tell, DnT, Delver etc and don't feel it's strong enough. It feels vulnerable (except against Grixis, but set up takes forever) and there might be better utility to put into that slot. Something like Volrath's Stronghold, Yavimaya Hollow, Cabal Pit could be decent...

Sanctum Prelate would have been very good as well, I'll have to get some of those. Deathrite Shaman and Sryb Range were key cards all night. I did get completely savaged by Harsh Mentor in Burn.

I don't think it really deserves a slot. It would definitely be a SB card and for specific metas but Tower of the Magistrate is super sweet against any blade deck.

[tescrin]

Personally I always like Cabal Pit. I often ran a 1-of Loam with it since Loam and KotR sometimes fill similar roles. Fetchable kill card for Crusader and Mom always felt good, and killing DRS or Delver made it alright. The fact it's usually uncounterable is good helpful.

It's a completely different hedge of course. Depths feels like you need to untap and just go for Stage at EoT, Depths when you untap, drop the token if your opponent does anything. This is different than the mentality of maverick usually is; where you have a collection of dudes that make life difficult for the opp.

Loam and Pit are more in line with the grindy game that Maverick wishes to put forward. The only downside to loam is that it's weak to the same things that KotR is weak to (mostly DRS/RiP)

[TMagpie]

Personally I always like Cabal Pit. I often ran a 1-of Loam with it since Loam and KotR sometimes fill similar roles. Fetchable kill card for Crusader and Mom always felt good, and killing DRS or Delver made it alright. The fact it's usually uncounterable is good helpful.

It's a completely different hedge of course. Depths feels like you need to untap and just go for Stage at EoT, Depths when you untap, drop the token if your opponent does anything. This is different than the mentality of maverick usually is; where you have a collection of dudes that make life difficult for the opp.

Loam and Pit are more in line with the grindy game that Maverick wishes to put forward. The only downside to loam is that it's weak to the same things that KotR is weak to (mostly DRS/RiP)

Would Pit make a good Maze of Ith replacement?

[Claymore]

I liked having Maze, and there was a point where I wanted Pit to go fetch too. I think both are fine.

[Dreadnaught33]

Hello all! I'm newly playing/learning Maverick, coming from about a whole year of serious knightfall play in modern; a deck I'm still playing a lot today (I'm just a huge KoR fan, what can I say).

I've went ahead and traded into most of the GWb cards needed, but I'm wondering what the masters in this thread would tell me to do for a list to start with, a full 75 just going into my first LGS games to be in the best position to learn the deck. Can't wait to learn this deck everybody, it's right up my alley.

[aspsnake]

Would Pit make a good Maze of Ith replacement?

Maze takes up a spell slot. Cabal Pit takes a land slot. So you should replace a land that produces mana. And Cabal Pit's threshold requirement is way too hard for Maverick to even consider it, imho.


Hello all! I'm newly playing/learning Maverick, coming from about a whole year of serious knightfall play in modern; a deck I'm still playing a lot today (I'm just a huge KoR fan, what can I say).

I've went ahead and traded into most of the GWb cards needed, but I'm wondering what the masters in this thread would tell me to do for a list to start with, a full 75 just going into my first LGS games to be in the best position to learn the deck. Can't wait to learn this deck everybody, it's right up my alley.

Hi! Welcome to Maverick! :)

Nobody can really tell you what to play, since there as many lists as Maverick players, but I would suggest starting with GWb indeed. Take any winning list from mtgtop8 and adjust it to your taste - strengths and weaknesses of every list depend very much on the meta.

Good luck! ;)

[Smarty744]

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15687&d=295920&f=LE

^ This is basically what I started with about a month ago, though you will probably like Stoneforge less and less as you play this deck. The best thing to do in my opinion, is go into your meta and test what works and what doesn't before you spend and money on the big money cards you see in some lists (multiple bayous, Cradles, Punishig Fire Package, etc.) and then come back to the pros on this forum once you've figured out the meta.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys.

I wanted to post my list and sideboarding tips for anyone interested in Maverick'ing for the gp.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke/Garruk Relentless
1 Containment Priest

If you want depths/stage remove 1 cradle 1 decay from maindeck.

Grixis Delver: i like to board in 2 decay and 2 zealous p, choke on the play but not the draw. Qasali mage, sylvan library and teeg get cut. Light and shadow comes out for choke on the play.

Storm: board out 4 Swords, 1 Jitte, 1 Knight, 1 Decay, 1 Library for 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Surgical, 2 Canonist. Could bring in 1 zealous for a stoneforge maybe.

Bug delver: cut qasali for 2 decay. Bring in garruk or choke for teeg.

Sneak: board out the removal and scavenging ooze, library and jitte for discard, priest, surgical, and rec sage. You can bring choke on the play, but i wouldn't recommend. Swords help bears survive k return and clasm, as well as lavamancer.

Elves: bring out qasalis, library, a couple knight, 2 thalia, bring in zealous p, decays, canonist, priest

Dark bant: bring decays, zealous p, choke/garruk, rec sage for 1 scooze, 1 gaddock, 1 mom, 1 thalia, 1 noble hierarch, 1 swords to plow. Can adjust these numbers to taste.

New Miracles: i like to board out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 noble Hierarch or DRS (because of sweepers), for 1 Choke/Garruk, 2 decay, 2 Canonist (because of post board mentor and increase threat count to equip). Try to not overextend into terminus. Remember fetchlands can become dryad arbor is she doesnt get exiled (fetch equip to kill a jace or speed up clock). You can also bring surgicals to help against snapcaster and terminus.

Reanimator: bring 4 Thoughtseize, 2 surgical, 1 priest for 1 decay, 1 library, 1 Jitte, 1 pridemage, 1 stoneforge, 1 noble hierarch, 1 gaddock teeg.

Death and taxes: bring in 2 decay, 2 zealous, 1 rec sage for 1 gaddock teeg, 4 Thalia (karakas bounces them too easily)

[Thunderknight]

I top8 a Montly 1K at a Maryland LGS close by. This was my list

4x DRS
4x Mom
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Pre-teen Thalia,
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight
1x Railler
1x Courser of Kruphix

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Plowshares
4x GSZ

4x Heaths
3x Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Gaea's Cralde
1x Horizon Canopy

SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Blessed Alliance (ALL STAR)
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (I'm debating taking this out for the GP)
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge


Wins:
Dragon Stompy (All star Sword of Fire and Ice wins game) (2-0)
BR Reanimator (Scryb Ranger + mom wins) (2-0)
Dredge: My opponent mulled down to 5, and passed turn without playing a land drop. They conceded when Iresolved a Gaddock Teeg. I had no information regarding how to SB because they didn't even played a land in the 2 turns. Thinking my opponent is on some sort of combo deck, I boarded as if I was playing aganist a Belcher/Storm deck. I got punished in game 2. Game three I had Ooze with 4 green sources to produce mana. (2-1)

Loses:
Grixis Delver: Stupid 5/5 Delve Flyer. (1-2)
RUG Delver: Found a Anicent Grudge to plow up my jitte and killed me for lethal) (1-2)

Top 8:

Lost to turn 3 Show and Tell, revealing Omniscience, followed up by a Emmy, in both games.


Thoughts:
Sancutm Prelate didn't really do anything in the matches where I want to do, I probably going to cut these and go back to the blackboard as for as a green hate creature that Hits both Grixis Delver and Show and Tell hard.

I'm not feeling Light and Shadow, but then I only played 5 rounds and i didn't face any BUG/UW control decks.

Anyways. This is my short report. I'll be playing this at GP Vegas. I hope these some of yall knights there and be jamming. Good luck.

[aspsnake]

Hey guys.

I wanted to post my list and sideboarding tips for anyone interested in Maverick'ing for the gp.

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke/Garruk Relentless
1 Containment Priest

If you want depths/stage remove 1 cradle 1 decay from maindeck.

Grixis Delver: i like to board in 2 decay and 2 zealous p, choke on the play but not the draw. Qasali mage, sylvan library and teeg get cut. Light and shadow comes out for choke on the play.

Storm: board out 4 Swords, 1 Jitte, 1 Knight, 1 Decay, 1 Library for 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Surgical, 2 Canonist. Could bring in 1 zealous for a stoneforge maybe.

Bug delver: cut qasali for 2 decay. Bring in garruk or choke for teeg.

Sneak: board out the removal and scavenging ooze, library and jitte for discard, priest, surgical, and rec sage. You can bring choke on the play, but i wouldn't recommend. Swords help bears survive k return and clasm, as well as lavamancer.

Elves: bring out qasalis, library, a couple knight, 2 thalia, bring in zealous p, decays, canonist, priest

Dark bant: bring decays, zealous p, choke/garruk, rec sage for 1 scooze, 1 gaddock, 1 mom, 1 thalia, 1 noble hierarch, 1 swords to plow. Can adjust these numbers to taste.

New Miracles: i like to board out 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 noble Hierarch or DRS (because of sweepers), for 1 Choke/Garruk, 2 decay, 2 Canonist (because of post board mentor and increase threat count to equip). Try to not overextend into terminus. Remember fetchlands can become dryad arbor is she doesnt get exiled (fetch equip to kill a jace or speed up clock). You can also bring surgicals to help against snapcaster and terminus.

Reanimator: bring 4 Thoughtseize, 2 surgical, 1 priest for 1 decay, 1 library, 1 Jitte, 1 pridemage, 1 stoneforge, 1 noble hierarch, 1 gaddock teeg.

Death and taxes: bring in 2 decay, 2 zealous, 1 rec sage for 1 gaddock teeg, 4 Thalia (karakas bounces them too easily)

I actually like your list a lot, will probably give it a try at our local FNM this week. Only one thing: is containment priest (I assume that this one is for Sneak Attack) really worth turning off the zeniths? Wouldn't a needle in the same slot be more useful overall?

[pettdan]

I actually like your list a lot, will probably give it a try at our local FNM this week. Only one thing: is containment priest (I assume that this one is for Sneak Attack) really worth turning off the zeniths? Wouldn't a needle in the same slot be more useful overall?

I've added Containment Priest myself recently, and cut back on Needles from 2 to 1. Not sure if that's right, but Priest is good vs Elves, Through the Breach, Show and Tell and Reanimator. With SDT gone Pithing Needle is maybe less important.

[Luthiereisfun]

I actually like your list a lot, will probably give it a try at our local FNM this week. Only one thing: is containment priest (I assume that this one is for Sneak Attack) really worth turning off the zeniths? Wouldn't a needle in the same slot be more useful overall?

It also shuts off show and tell and can have use vs elves. It does shut off your own GSZ but in the case of elves I rather have that than a deadcard in the MU or just autolose. For show and tell it means their only out is Omniscience or getting rid of priest.

[TheoryCraft]

Thoughts on the newly spoiled naga cleric, Ramunap Excavator? Seems like a potential 1-of GSZ target to Wasteland lock our opponents. :cool:

[Claymore]

I think it's great. Works well with Safekeeper and Knight as well (sac, fetch, replay fetch, fetch...sac, waste, replay waste). Cabal Pit if you're on the black splash. Splashable with just a 1x Naga since you can GSZ for it, and I could see running Stronghold to keep it around.

[timmyod17]

Thoughts on the newly spoiled naga cleric, Ramunap Excavator? Seems like a potential 1-of GSZ target to Wasteland lock our opponents. :cool:

Magus of the crucible. Wow. I like it.

[TMagpie]

Magus of the crucible. Wow. I like it.

I not only feel its one of the best Maverick centered cards they've released in a while, but I also feel like we might be undervalue it.

[Luthiereisfun]

I think the fact that we have flex slots and it's Green make slotting it into Maverick super easy. The recursion with wasteland alone seems worth it.

[pettdan]

I find it very hard to say whether we under- or overvalue it. Wizards seem to have identified the 3-drop as a weak segment and are releasing great card after great card. Recent additions for us, of course, have been Tireless Tracker, Renegade Rallier, Sanctum Prelate, Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Thalia, Heretic Cathar. When these cards show up we tend to imagine that they will revolutionize the deck, but they have so far ended up taking 1 spot or similarly. We may have just not found the right mix of cards to make a new version of the deck, but it seems to me that when comparing the power level it is similar to or lower than Tracker. Tracker grows huge and draws any cards, this new card just gives us lands. Knight of the Reliquary already does that, but at the same time tutoring for them and being a monster. So I think it will be a 1 of in some builds, maybe most builds.

Last weekend I went 4-2 in a local event with 33 players, losing to High Tide (again) and Infect and winning the fair matches (with some luck involved) ending up 9th. I made an experiment because I wanted to try Ghost Quarter with Loam to be able to attack the decks that think they are safe with a few basics and to get back Depths and Canopy, also decided to play a Mox Diamond main and one in the board to help the matchup vs those unfavorable fast combo decks. Well it appears to have been a good idea based on my losses, but unfortunately I didn't draw the Diamonds in those games so the experiment didn't provide much info.

What I was trying to get to was that recursion of Ghost Quarters with the new Crucible-bear (this is a bit early but, link: Ramunap Excavator) seems very good. Playing Loam to enable Ghost Quarters in order to be able to play the mana denial game vs basic playing decks is a bit random, Ramunap Excavator seems to make that strategy much better. So I could imagine cutting down on black further and playing 2 Ghost Quarters in the main deck... At least as an experiment. I think that seems like a good way to use the new card, a change of the deck's mana denial strategy that may be good enough to be used.

[TheoryCraft]

I find it very hard to say whether we under- or overvalue it. Wizards seem to have identified the 3-drop as a weak segment and are releasing great card after great card. Recent additions for us, of course, have been Tireless Tracker, Renegade Rallier, Sanctum Prelate, Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Thalia, Heretic Cathar. When these cards show up we tend to imagine that they will revolutionize the deck, but they have so far ended up taking 1 spot or similarly. We may have just not found the right mix of cards to make a new version of the deck, but it seems to me that when comparing the power level it is similar to or lower than Tracker. Tracker grows huge and draws any cards, this new card just gives us lands. Knight of the Reliquary already does that, but at the same time tutoring for them and being a monster. So I think it will be a 1 of in some builds, maybe most builds.

Last weekend I went 4-2 in a local event with 33 players, losing to High Tide (again) and Infect and winning the fair matches (with some luck involved) ending up 9th. I made an experiment because I wanted to try Ghost Quarter with Loam to be able to attack the decks that think they are safe with a few basics and to get back Depths and Canopy, also decided to play a Mox Diamond main and one in the board to help the matchup vs those unfavorable fast combo decks. Well it appears to have been a good idea based on my losses, but unfortunately I didn't draw the Diamonds in those games so the experiment didn't provide much info.

What I was trying to get to was that recursion of Ghost Quarters with the new Crucible-bear (this is a bit early but, link: Ramunap Excavator) seems very good. Playing Loam to enable Ghost Quarters in order to be able to play the mana denial game vs basic playing decks is a bit random, Ramunap Excavator seems to make that strategy much better. So I could imagine cutting down on black further and playing 2 Ghost Quarters in the main deck... At least as an experiment. I think that seems like a good way to use the new card, a change of the deck's mana denial strategy that may be good enough to be used.
Congrats on the nice finish. I agree that there has been an influx of potential cards recently - the ones you listed above came to mind for me as well. I have to admit that I haven't used Tireless Tracker in Legacy yet because personally, I find myself asking "why would I grab this card as opposed to a game-ender like KoTR or Scooze or a utility card like Scryb, Teeg, or Qasali?" Crucible-on-a-Stick is probably closest in application to Rallier, a card which I've had a love-hate relationship with. Rallier SEEMS like it should be amazing value because you can GSZ for 4 mana, grab and put Rallier into play, then pull out something from your GY like a destroyed Jiite or Scooze. For whatever reason, though, in actual gameplay it's been a bit underwhelming.

I have to admit I also haven't tried Sanctum Prelate yet in Legacy but I view it in a similar vein as Thalia, HC - it's either a 2-of, or not at all. Having it as a singleton does nothing since you can't search for it. I've enjoyed Thalia, HC quite a bit as a 2-of because: (a) her 3/2 first strike body is surprisingly resilient, especially when you have exalted effects in play; (b) she doesn't blow herself up due to legendary rule with the original Thalia; (c) she preys on most mana bases in Legacy because they are non-basic; and (d) she is very relevant against one of our major problem MU's - Elves. I may eventually go away from 2-of Thalia, HC but she's won enough games literally by herself to warrant a maindeck inclusion.

Time will tell whether Crucible-on-a-Stick finds its place as a 1-of in the deck. I don't view it as a replacement to KotR, but rather a supplement to basically lock down a game once you have a Wasteland in your hand, battlefield, or GY.

[ironclad8690]

Tracker grows huge and draws any cards, this new card just gives us lands. Knight of the Reliquary already does that, but at the same time tutoring for them and being a monster. So I think it will be a 1 of in some builds, maybe most builds.

But when you play cards from another zone besides your hand you can basically think of it like drawing 1 extra card per turn.

Also, if the plan becomes more ghost quarter centric, I could see adding in some aven mindcensors. Perhaps a build that doesn't include stoneforge and just plays 2 Jitte instead like in that awkward phase when Maverick was tier 1.

[TMagpie]

You don't even need Ghost Quarter. This guy + Horizon Canopy is already a replacement for tracker. This guy + Wasteland will often be enough, but a 1of GQ to be searched for by KotR is just as strong also. And even just using this guy with KotR will be strong.

[Luthiereisfun]

What I like most about him is you don't need to build around him. Things like adding a gq to lock people out is a plus but overall that's a very small addition. Like Tmagpie said wasteland and Canopy alone are pretty nuts with it.

[TMagpie]

What I like most about him is you don't need to build around him. Things like adding a gq to lock people out is a plus but overall that's a very small addition. Like Tmagpie said wasteland and Canopy alone are pretty nuts with it.

I think its important for people to know that this guy is not new. Crucible of Worlds AND Life from the Loam were already usable in Maverick prior, and cards like Eternal Witness and Renegade Rallier and Titania, Protector of Argoth already gave us land recursion on a body.

That he is a 1of, tutorable, repeatable form of recursion is what makes him super exciting.

[Luthiereisfun]

My hope is his ability to lock people out and grind pushes Maverick as the top fair deck. We already have a fine fair MU but if he can make us the clearly favored deck I think that would help Maverick a lot in its general viability.

[tescrin]

Mav's whole problem is a mix between Terminus and Storm. I think Silence or Children of Korlis in the side would be a fine way to keep Storm from stealing games without God hands. Discard can be a bit unreliable, but Silence used in response to Discard or as your Flusterstorm is pretty OK.

I think the other issue is that Mav is super weak to -1/-1 effects. Arbor, Thalia, Noble, Mom, ScrybR if you run it; it's a lot of stuff. I think if the deck wants to have legs when Pyro, TNN, and Elves are a thing, it needs to change up a fundamental core of its plan a bit so it can not be hated out in the SB as badly. Even maindecks are getting ZPs and Deluges.

To this end, i think you have to cut Mom for either something that will live, or another value engine. I think there's a lot of tension between the Manaramp plan of nearly 12 cards, and Mom; since they both want to hit T1 and are much worse T2. I know that this is Blasphemy, but I think this is the truth of the deck. It can be a meta deck or it can change; but Mom exists in a format with TNN, where TNN says "hey you need sweepers, councils judgement, less removal heavy builds, and flyers" and with unblockable Jittes all over the place, and sometimes unblockable SoFaIs, you need something different. Maybe a 1-of Safekeeper, dropping Moms for value cards so that you draw loads of cards instead of protecting the ones you have (say, 2-3 Tracker.) You have the ramp to get there T2, and the ability to draw loads of cards with Tracker + knight, I think that's what the deck wants to do to compete.

I really don't think it's gonna get there with Mom anymore. Go deeper on the value train or the manascrew train, but trying to protect your permanents is becoming a losing scenario

[Claymore]

I think Mom is fine. Protecting Thalia, Teeg, Canonist against Storm or Burn is good. Pushing a Knight holding a Jitte riding a Batterskull through a True Name or opposing Mother is fine too. Infinite blocking against Angler or locking out Marit Lage with a Birds of Paradise. She acts like a mini Chalice against all the creature removal.

Certainly worth testing removing her though. I know even DnT went down to 3 at one point.

I do like the points about Orim's Chant effects though. I'm not sure if discard became a big thing due to Miracles, although I think it is better against Show and Tell than silence effects.

[Luthiereisfun]

I think Mom is crucial to the deck. Yes it dies to boardwipes but it can also force them and is fundamental to protecting hatebears. You mention decks like storm being an issue and suggest adding cards like tireless tracker. I just don't agree with that assessment.

I agree that storm can be an issue but I think it's just one of the limitations to the deck and only so much can be done. It's not unwinnable but they just have hands we can't beat no matter what we draw.

My personal opinion is you want Maverick to crush fair decks and be good enough against combo that you can beat them as well and have a reasonable plan. Mother of Runes is crucial in a lot of these fair MU and I just don't think replacing them with more cards that grind is the solution.

Has anyone else found boardwipes to be that much of an issue? Yes they are good against us but most don't kill Knight or an equipped creature.

Personally I just haven't found board wipes to be what's holding Maverick back. When Terminus was around sure, but as you pointed out most people are just running -1/-1 effects which don't even clear our whole board.

[TheoryCraft]

Re: weakness against Storm and boardwipes: yes, they are our most unfavorable MU. But consider what we have in our main to counteract these strategies:
4x DRS - locks out opposing DRS, clears cards in GY, can eat creatures to gain life
1-2x Ooze - eats creatures to come back from boardwipes and get huge, clears cards in GY
4x Thalia (original) - no explanation needed
1x Teeg - obvious
4x GSZ - to find all but Thalia
(optional: 2x Thalia, HC - the non-basic tax is real, though sadly a bit slow)

That's a lot of main deck options. Yes, most of them are slow to Storm. But I just watched my friend, who plays DNT, lose to Storm on T1 in back-to-back games. He even had Thalias in hand and ready to play T2. Never had a turn in one of the games (he was on the draw) and the other he never saw his 2nd turn. Sometimes MU are just bad or unfair decks just nut. Unless you start packing 4x Orim's Chant/Silence you're not likely to be favored against those type of decks.

[tescrin]

I think Mom is fine. Protecting Thalia, Teeg, Canonist against Storm or Burn is good. Pushing a Knight holding a Jitte riding a Batterskull through a True Name or opposing Mother is fine too. Infinite blocking against Angler or locking out Marit Lage with a Birds of Paradise. She acts like a mini Chalice against all the creature removal.


I think Mom is crucial to the deck. Yes it dies to boardwipes but it can also force them and is fundamental to protecting hatebears.

I mean, by the time you have unanswered Knight unanswered Jitte unanswered BSK unanswered Mom, is this really the best example? We're talking you have a God-board by that point. True, she'll push it through a TNN, but so would any pro-blue, trample, or flying creature in the game; or just tutoring SoFaI or SoBaM instead. We're also talking really fringe stuff IMO, like blocking an Angler and the opp having no removal in response. Yeah, she blocked 5, then she died and you lost anyway.

I'm not saying she's terrible but it's time to be *honest* about the deck. It's not winning. Something about that should be absorbed. It needs *something.* Maybe the Mom slot is wrong, but it feels the least integral part of the deck, a part that doesn't jive with mana-accel, a part that isn't a threat on its own unless you're already winning (as in, have a resolved, unanswered equip with a mom on board) and doesn't help with combo. You want to win fair MUs, you need either a bigger dude or to draw cards. Trackers + something else in the Mom slots Jive with Mana-accel dudes. Say, -4 Mom, +2 Safekeeper +2 Tracker. You have a haste-mom now that can fire multiple times, doesn't have to tap, is GSZable, and doesn't hinder your mana dudes.

If the deck isn't winning, there's a reason. I'm suggesting it's because there's a specific part of the plan that is dated and out of touch with the legacy of today; of which Blue has a lot more CA than it did and there's a lot more X/1's people care about having non-targeted affects for. The reason I think this is because Maverick often loses to the other GWb style fair decks; particularly because they are happy to run -1/-1 hate. DGA with ZP, or Junk with Deluge. It's hard to drop a game when your permanents are generally better/more dense, and you have boardwipes that gain yet-more-CA.

Maverick has to change somehow, and I would love to see a viable GWb deck; but it's current incarnation seems lacking. Maybe vegas will shit all over what I'm saying, but if you're in here saying "Boy I wish this deck was good"; it's time to be honest.


You mention decks like storm being an issue and suggest adding cards like tireless tracker. I just don't agree with that assessment.
Well isn't this the most disengenuous argument ever. I didn't for once suggest swapping Mom would improve your Storm MU. Yeah, storm is an issue; but my suggestion was Chant effects in the sideboard over discard, since chant effects are much more reliable. Orim's Chant even answers a Hoof a reasonable amount. A hoof + dudes is still a problem at that point, but better than being dead.

I can't say if it's a worthwhile way to go, but I think having a T1 White Flusterstorm that can stop them from winning even if they cast a discard spell, seems good for the Worst MU.

_______________
I realize I am blaspheming; and I'll quit it after this post; but it has to be said. Something doesn't work and a 2/3 Crucible isn't going to change that. This deck requires a shake-up, I think despite the anecdotal evidence you'll post and the applications to the board state, the deck has an obvious issue that if your hand has T1 Mom and T1 accel (which is ~35% of the time) you have a decision that can cost you the match. If instead it's Safekeeper, well he doesn't have to untap, so he can be T2, badda-bing, easy decision. With a 2/3 Crucible, Safekeeper looks a *hell* of a lot better.

Good luck to you guys either way, it had to be said.

[Luthiereisfun]

I mean, by the time you have unanswered Knight unanswered Jitte unanswered BSK unanswered Mom, is this really the best example? We're talking you have a God-board by that point. True, she'll push it through a TNN, but so would any pro-blue, trample, or flying creature in the game; or just tutoring SoFaI or SoBaM instead. We're also talking really fringe stuff IMO, like blocking an Angler and the opp having no removal in response. Yeah, she blocked 5, then she died and you lost anyway.

I'm not saying she's terrible but it's time to be *honest* about the deck. It's not winning. Something about that should be absorbed. It needs *something.* Maybe the Mom slot is wrong, but it feels the least integral part of the deck, a part that doesn't jive with mana-accel, a part that isn't a threat on its own unless you're already winning (as in, have a resolved, unanswered equip with a mom on board) and doesn't help with combo. You want to win fair MUs, you need either a bigger dude or to draw cards. Trackers + something else in the Mom slots Jive with Mana-accel dudes. Say, -4 Mom, +2 Safekeeper +2 Tracker. You have a haste-mom now that can fire multiple times, doesn't have to tap, is GSZable, and doesn't hinder your mana dudes.

If the deck isn't winning, there's a reason. I'm suggesting it's because there's a specific part of the plan that is dated and out of touch with the legacy of today; of which Blue has a lot more CA than it did and there's a lot more X/1's people care about having non-targeted affects for. The reason I think this is because Maverick often loses to the other GWb style fair decks; particularly because they are happy to run -1/-1 hate. DGA with ZP, or Junk with Deluge. It's hard to drop a game when your permanents are generally better/more dense, and you have boardwipes that gain yet-more-CA.

Maverick has to change somehow, and I would love to see a viable GWb deck; but it's current incarnation seems lacking. Maybe vegas will shit all over what I'm saying, but if you're in here saying "Boy I wish this deck was good"; it's time to be honest.


Well isn't this the most disengenuous argument ever. I didn't for once suggest swapping Mom would improve your Storm MU. Yeah, storm is an issue; but my suggestion was Chant effects in the sideboard over discard, since chant effects are much more reliable. Orim's Chant even answers a Hoof a reasonable amount. A hoof + dudes is still a problem at that point, but better than being dead.

I can't say if it's a worthwhile way to go, but I think having a T1 White Flusterstorm that can stop them from winning even if they cast a discard spell, seems good for the Worst MU.

_______________
I realize I am blaspheming; and I'll quit it after this post; but it has to be said. Something doesn't work and a 2/3 Crucible isn't going to change that. This deck requires a shake-up, I think despite the anecdotal evidence you'll post and the applications to the board state, the deck has an obvious issue that if your hand has T1 Mom and T1 accel (which is ~35% of the time) you have a decision that can cost you the match. If instead it's Safekeeper, well he doesn't have to untap, so he can be T2, badda-bing, easy decision. With a 2/3 Crucible, Safekeeper looks a *hell* of a lot better.

Good luck to you guys either way, it had to be said.

To clarify I don't think trying to take a new approach with the deck is wrong. I also think there's a lot to be said for thinking outside the bog. Even though I disagree I totally admit that these are just my opinions and I could be totally off base.

I agree that Maverick can have trouble making deep runs in tournaments and puttin up results. Ultimately I believe this is because there are MU that can be pretty rough and feel like you might as well toss a coin. For me Storm/BR reanimator and Show and Tell are the main culprits. We can beat them. But they have hands that feel pretty much unwinnable even if we have the "perfect" hand. To add on top of this there are other MU that are not easy like elves and infect and other fair MU are not total byes by any means.

I love Maverick and I think it's one of the most fun decks to play and it has a plan to attack pretty much every deck in the format. The deck just loses more to variance imo.

For me its shortcomings won't be changed by mother of runes or tireless tracker or even the snake crucible (he does look pretty exciting though).

Like I said I'm totally willing to eat crow and be wrong. I don't think Maverick is even in a bad spot I just think there are hurdles the deck has that are out of its control.

[TMagpie]

I mean, by the time you have unanswered Knight unanswered Jitte unanswered BSK unanswered Mom, is this really the best example? We're talking you have a God-board by that point. True, she'll push it through a TNN, but so would any pro-blue, trample, or flying creature in the game; or just tutoring SoFaI or SoBaM instead. We're also talking really fringe stuff IMO, like blocking an Angler and the opp having no removal in response. Yeah, she blocked 5, then she died and you lost anyway.

I'm not saying she's terrible but it's time to be *honest* about the deck. It's not winning. Something about that should be absorbed. It needs *something.* Maybe the Mom slot is wrong, but it feels the least integral part of the deck, a part that doesn't jive with mana-accel, a part that isn't a threat on its own unless you're already winning (as in, have a resolved, unanswered equip with a mom on board) and doesn't help with combo. You want to win fair MUs, you need either a bigger dude or to draw cards. Trackers + something else in the Mom slots Jive with Mana-accel dudes. Say, -4 Mom, +2 Safekeeper +2 Tracker. You have a haste-mom now that can fire multiple times, doesn't have to tap, is GSZable, and doesn't hinder your mana dudes.

If the deck isn't winning, there's a reason. I'm suggesting it's because there's a specific part of the plan that is dated and out of touch with the legacy of today; of which Blue has a lot more CA than it did and there's a lot more X/1's people care about having non-targeted affects for. The reason I think this is because Maverick often loses to the other GWb style fair decks; particularly because they are happy to run -1/-1 hate. DGA with ZP, or Junk with Deluge. It's hard to drop a game when your permanents are generally better/more dense, and you have boardwipes that gain yet-more-CA.

Maverick has to change somehow, and I would love to see a viable GWb deck; but it's current incarnation seems lacking. Maybe vegas will shit all over what I'm saying, but if you're in here saying "Boy I wish this deck was good"; it's time to be honest.


Well isn't this the most disengenuous argument ever. I didn't for once suggest swapping Mom would improve your Storm MU. Yeah, storm is an issue; but my suggestion was Chant effects in the sideboard over discard, since chant effects are much more reliable. Orim's Chant even answers a Hoof a reasonable amount. A hoof + dudes is still a problem at that point, but better than being dead.

I can't say if it's a worthwhile way to go, but I think having a T1 White Flusterstorm that can stop them from winning even if they cast a discard spell, seems good for the Worst MU.

_______________
I realize I am blaspheming; and I'll quit it after this post; but it has to be said. Something doesn't work and a 2/3 Crucible isn't going to change that. This deck requires a shake-up, I think despite the anecdotal evidence you'll post and the applications to the board state, the deck has an obvious issue that if your hand has T1 Mom and T1 accel (which is ~35% of the time) you have a decision that can cost you the match. If instead it's Safekeeper, well he doesn't have to untap, so he can be T2, badda-bing, easy decision. With a 2/3 Crucible, Safekeeper looks a *hell* of a lot better.

Good luck to you guys either way, it had to be said.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your line of questioning--I simply feel that you are coming to your conclusions a little too quickly.

Lets start from the base of this discussion--Mother of Runes versus Deathrite Shaman. I say Deathrite Shaman because the core of the deck has become Green Sun Zenith, which means that the list only adds 4-5 more mana dorks for its acceleration.

I find myself being very split on this topic. The reason for this is because 90% of the time I actually find Mother of Runes being the superior first turn play unless there is a specific follow up the following turn that needs the ramp. This can be Green Sun's Zenith for a hatebear, Thalia + Wasteland, Stoneforge Mystic + Swords to Plowshares, etc... Whatever the setup is, being able to do two things in one turn is the best reason to play a mana dork on turn one. Otherwise, I usually lean super hard on a first turn Mother of Runes to dictate my game.

Why?

Because, and maybe I'm wrong in this, I have always played Maverick as a complicated "protect the queen" strategy. Oftentimes match-ups hinges on specific creatures bullying the board depending on what deck your opponent has; with Mother of Runes being the primary way to protect that "Queen."

Now this isn't always true--but it's more true than it isn't. Be it protecting your Teeg vs combo, protecting your Knight of the Reliquary vs Eldrazi, or protecting your Scavenging Ooze vs Delver; many endgames hinges on that game state when I play the deck.

This is the reason I lean so hard on the Mother of Runes plan. Why I run a Scryb Ranger, why I don't run Sword of Light and Shadow. It is often paramount (for me) to protect the card that I lean on to win the game. However, there are two issues with Maverick that really hampers it--in my anecdotal experience.

1.) Speed. Not just a complaint about being helpless the first 1-2 turns of the game (which is true) but Maverick also has a tendency to be difficult to close out with as well. Youthful Knights and Deathrite activations doesn't allow you to kill the opponent very quickly. This often means awkward things, like elves killing you after you locked them out for 8 turns because Scryb Ranger + exalted triggers just wasn't a quick enough clock. It means burn getting 3-4 draw steps after you have stabilized the game and them getting lucky drawing the last bolt they needed to kill you. Maverick's issue with speed goes on both ends--often times too slow vs the belcher strategies and often times unable to turn a game around quickly enough to capitalize on its locks.

2.) Scaling issues. Maverick runs 9-10 cards in its main just to speed up mana. Some lists even runs cradle so it can boost its mana production even more--and with all that mana it plays 3 drops, and moves around equipment. This means that Maverick often slows down the game with its hatebears, pushed the matchup to the later turns of the game, and hopes that the opponent doesn't play anything that beats a Knight of the Reliquary. Oftentimes this is fine, but oftentimes it also means double true-name + Jitte.

Any discussion that attempts to break down Maverick to find out why it might be unable to break the meta as much as its loyal fans want it to starts from those concepts. We shouldn't be asking which cards are weak, and what does its role better--which should be asking what aspects of the deck's rhythm and strategy is weak, and what aspects could we make better.

[TheoryCraft]

While I am not a proponent of the idea, I find it interesting that around the time we are discussing Mom-less Maverick there is a 1st out of 61 showing with that kind of a list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23559&iddeck=183417). First time I've seen a Mom-less list make any kind of showing. In unpacking the deck, it looks to rely heavily on having 3 mana on T2 - 7 mana dorks (4 Noble, 3 DRS) essentially assures at least 1 dork in opening hand, and it allows the deck a couple options to jam on T2: run out an early KotR; flash in a 2-of Aven Mindcensor; jam a quick Thalia, HC; do the typically "best" crippling route of Thalia + Wasteland, and so on. The deck would certainly be weaker against fair decks, but has a quick T2 ramp for better game against problematic MU's. Thoughts?

[Claymore]

Also has Dryard Arbor with 4 GSZ plus a BoP, so you're looking at 12 turn 1 dorks.

[Rascalyote]

I've been playing my fairly standard list with a few 'slight' tweaks and it's been pretty good-

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
-23-

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-13-

4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
-24-

3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
-15-

I know some things might look weird but lets go through some of them-

In the main deck I cut all my flex slots (which were usually Sylvan Librarys/Decays/Zenith targets/etc) for Thoughtseize because it acts kind of like removal but it is also good vs a lot of decks we are soft to (mostly combo) and there are very few matchups where it's really bad, I also wanted to streamline my deck more and lower my curve a bit as I believe the format has sped up. I'm not running cradle or stage depths and instead have a 9th fetch just to make my mana as good as it can be - I have cards I want to play turn one in each of my colours.

Revoker has been doing a lot better than I thought, naming mana abilities to slow down decks that would normally roll us (LED and Heritage Druid) to give me time to set up more hate, play more discard, or finish them off. In the case of storm I've also been seeing a lot of Dread of Night and it's a hate bear that isn't hit by that as well as being easy to cast to boot! There's also lots of other MUs you can bring the guy in against.

"Isn't 4 IoK and 3 Thoughtseize kinda ham sandwich on the discard, why not play something like prelate" - IMO this deck already has a lot of permanent based hate that costs 2+ mana, discard attacks at a different angle and as early as turn 1. It powers up Surgical Extraction and it lets you sometimes play a more controlling role against other creature decks. I don't hate Prelate but I found it awkward, WW could be hard to cast or it could be against a deck like Delver and a lot of the times while the effect was good I didn't have the board presence to make my opponent care about a 3 mana 2/2 or all their answers weren't the same cmc. IoK Specifically is also solid against burn, a matchup I found to be unfavourable but hard to find sideboard cards for without them being too narrow, and I again was running into the same problems with Prelate as I mentioned above.

[TMagpie]

GP Vegas: Day One Report

Current List

Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 13
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard: 15
2 Orim's Chant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg

Unfortunately my day one went 6-3 overall, losing my last two rounds despite coming into the day with 2 byes. Disappointing end to the day but at least made it to day two.

Decided to try out Zealous Persecution based on this thread's praise of it and it was middling at best--not bad though, just middling. Faced nothing but fair decks for the majority of the day, so I'm glad I cut my trusty Phyrexian Revokers for a pair of Zealous Persecutions. In hindsight, i would have just run more Abrupt Decays.

Round One: Bye
Round Two: Bye

Round Three: BUG Leovold 2-0

An early Knight of the Reliquary wastes him out of the game. Game two he resolves Truename turns two and three followed by two Deathrite Shamans. I resolved a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary and kill him with Marit Lage.

Round Four: BUG Leovold 2-0

Much the same as prior rounds. Game one was fair magic and he died Knight of the Reliquary beats. Game two He resolves multiple Truenames and kills most of my guys, but Knight into Marit Lage kills him.

Round Five: Elves 0-2

Game one he thinks I'm Elves and plays Bayou and Cradle which I double Wasteland leaving him with just a Nettle Sentinel and an Elvish Visionary. I was fool for leaving him only manaless with an active Jitte once I untap because that was enough for him to kill me. The second game I made the mistake of leaning on Umezawa's Jitte. It was quickly killed as it always is and I just smack him for 3 for a few turns before he hard casts a Craterhoof.

Round Six: Turbo Depths 2-0

This was fairly uneventful. Discarded a bunch of my cards and then died both games.

Round Seven: BUG Delver 2-0

Game one he got an early Delver and followed it up with Truename to hold off my Knight. But then I made a Marit Lage and blocked his Delver and killed him on the crack back. Game two he tried to lean on Leovolds but just died to Deathrites and Scryb Rangers instead.

Round Eight: Grixis Delver 1-2

An easy win game one was followed by Grim Lavamancer wrecking me both games two and three. Just couldn't draw my removal at the right time and the tempo loss made it impossible to beat his follow up Truename on time.

Round Nine: RUG Delver 1-2

Close across all three games. The first game became a race where a timely blocker on his end won it for him while the third game was me holding Decay as I died to a Hooting Mandrils.

I make it to day two, but my 6-1 start turning to 6-3 was definitely humbling. Sadly, the bad beats continued.

Round Ten: UW Standstill 1-1-1

This was an epic case is mis-assigning roles. Game one starts with him just laying islands and plains, convincing me he's miracles. He counters my first few spells until I land a Stoneforge Mystic for Sword of Fire and Ice, he then drops a Truename Nemesis. Thinking he is UW Stoneblade I empty my hand of threats and begin racing him. A Supreme Verdict followed by Jace + Standstill ends it. Game two was grindy since it was just our Stoneforge mystics fighting under a standstill until my Batterskull trumped his. With 6 minutes left in the round we both kept sketchy hands and tried to race but were unable to close.

Round Eleven: BUG Delver

I keep a nice opening hand, but am going second. He plays a Polluted and Passes. I play a land and pass as my one drop is plow. He plays a land and casts hymn to tourach hitting both my lands. I don't draw another land the rest of the game. Game three he casts hymn on turn two again--but misses my lands. I then get mana out and cast spells and he can't do anything about it. Game three was a mirror of game two. He played a land, I played a Deathrite which he Fatal pushed at end of turn, he then hymn both lands out of my hand and I never draw another land.

I drop at this point ending my run at 6-4-1 and proceed to go to side events.

Overview:
The event was fun but deflating. Losing to RUG and Grixis is uncommon in my experience but losing them rounds 8 and 9 really hampered my chances. Round 11 was bad beats so I can't get mad--I had a few lucky beats too so it evens out. But the matches to both RUG and Grixis were actual back and forths so I need to rethink those matchups again.

The persecutions were fine but often not brought in. I only faced one combo deck but elves is fairly rough. Although it's the first time I've lost to elves in a long while--I can't blame Zealous persecutions because I didn't draw it--although in that specific game it would have been useless. Batterskull underperformed all week. Only ever being useful in the matches I ended up losing/drawing anyway. With the decline in Shardless I'll need to start really thinking about whether it's worth it to keep running the skull.

Marit Lage was a beating, winning me multiple matches I shouldn't have won and allowing me to beat fast double Truename draws. Maze of Ith was fairly useful as well, but my mana felt overly tight all week. Despite running 3 basics it still felt impossible to safely get to 4 mana with as many stifles and wastelands continually being thrown at each other. Adjustments will have to be made.

Now I'm off to play modern today--wish me luck!

[Koby]

THanks for the report and your candid thoughts regarding some of the cards we've discussed on this thread earlier. The point about stable mana hits home: being able to ramp asap with this deck is so important. That's why I believe that sylvan Library is a good card to include, it helps give filtering to our draw step.

[Cpt-Qc]

IoK Specifically is also solid against burn, a matchup I found to be unfavourable but hard to find sideboard cards for without them being too narrow, ...

This so much. Burn isn't a good mu and the hate that's good against it is, for the most part, useless vs most of the field.

I had thought of trying IoK previously but was unsure because Duress is usually better in legacy. Did you end up boarding them in against more than just burn/Combo?

[timmyod17]

This so much. Burn isn't a good mu and the hate that's good against it is, for the most part, useless vs most of the field.

I had thought of trying IoK previously but was unsure because Duress is usually better in legacy. Did you end up boarding them in against more than just burn/Combo?

I will occasionally run a singleton Blessed Alliance. Great vs Burn, but also decent against Delver, TNN decks, and even has applications vs Lands (kills pesky Marit Lage), Reanimator, and Sneak and Show.

[Rascalyote]

This so much. Burn isn't a good mu and the hate that's good against it is, for the most part, useless vs most of the field.

I had thought of trying IoK previously but was unsure because Duress is usually better in legacy. Did you end up boarding them in against more than just burn/Combo?

I like duress more against combo for the most part as it can hit Tendrils//Past and Flames and maybe you can exile/surgical it to get a cheese win and against SnT it hits Sneak attack. But I cut them for IoKs because they're (obviously) a lot stronger vs creature based combo, they hit more out of burn (specifically Eidolon, but yes it misses Fireblast), and yes you get to bring them in against non-combo matchups sometimes (if you have room) like DnT, blade/TNN, Delver or Leovold pile.

Also I don't do this often but more recently I've tried boarding out my Mothers in both the mirror and against DnT to play more of a control deck with 5 plow effects, 7 discard, Persecution, Revokers, etc. and it's worked out - not sure if it's right because cutting mother of runes sounds bad on paper

[Cpt-Qc]

I might just try a 3/3 split with thoughtseize and duress to slow down combos. Even if I like Prelate, it's too slow most of the time.

[Jain_Mor]

I might just try a 3/3 split with thoughtseize and duress to slow down combos. Even if I like Prelate, it's too slow most of the time.

As a cousin of Maverick, I can confirm in junk that outside of being blue the best thing you can do to fight a combo deck is T1 discard, T2 hatebear.

@TMagpie, thanks for the report. So you went 4-4-1 in actual matches at the tournament right? I like your list, especially the way you listed it. Speaking to the above I would have replaced the extra Teeg and scooze in the side with two more thoughtsiezes. Not like this deck needs more two drops..

I agree on batterskull. You said you didn't board in Persecution very much, yet you played TNN decks all day.. why didn't you board it against the TNN decks?

[Cpt-Qc]

Zealous is king against True-Name, Young Peezy, Elves, DnT, Belcher, Goblins, Maverick and can be used in a plethora of other situations if you run out of stuff to bring in (any deck with strix, TES, Mentor decks just to name a few). It really is a must have in the board.

Also, with the raise in delver decks, isn't Batterskull a must to slow things down? It seems to be useful against all the different variants of the deck (maybe less so against RUG but that version is almost non-existant).

[TMagpie]

As a cousin of Maverick, I can confirm in junk that outside of being blue the best thing you can do to fight a combo deck is T1 discard, T2 hatebear.

@TMagpie, thanks for the report. So you went 4-4-1 in actual matches at the tournament right? I like your list, especially the way you listed it. Speaking to the above I would have replaced the extra Teeg and scooze in the side with two more thoughtsiezes. Not like this deck needs more two drops..

I agree on batterskull. You said you didn't board in Persecution very much, yet you played TNN decks all day.. why didn't you board it against the TNN decks?

My loss against elves was with him having several Deathrite shamans and Nettle sentinels out over a few turns, resolved a natural order and killed me. I didn't draw either Toxic or Zealous but had I drawn Zealous it would have done little while had I drawn Phyrexian Revoker, I would have delayed him a few more turns. But that's irrelevant because I didn't even draw the card.

I only lost to 1 BUG deck off of turn 2 Hymn to Tourach hitting both lands. I did draw Zealous in that game, but being I died to Goyf it was irrelevant there too.

My loss to RUG was off of Hooting Mandrils game 3. I drew Decay and Zealous and Toxic and plow. Both Toxic and plow got countered.

My loss to Grixis had me die with Decay, Toxic, and Zealous in hand with no black source.

The one game (against BUG) where Zealous was actually useful I wished it was Toxic so I could also kill his 2x Deathrites. But I will not run 4 Toxic OR 4 Zealous so 2 Toxic /2 Zealous is much preferable. Apart from that one game where a sweeper saved me, Truename Nemesis is often just an awful magic card against us, only ever being a threat if they have multiples out. I found the increase in stifles much more damaging because it makes leaning on multicolor/high cc (more than 2) answers more inconsistent. This was a known quantity to me 2 years ago; but the dominance of Dig through time and miracles pushed Stifle decks out of the limelight too much and I just forgot how tight the mana could be in this environment.

As for the Batterskull comment--Batterskull is a midranged threat that allows you to take over games against fair decks, assuming the issue was the board. When the issue is mana and tempo the idea of tweaking the deck's late game to solidify its early game becomes my point of concern.

Of my 4 losses, only 2 felt like I could have fixed either with tighter deck design and especially tighter play. The other two were just bad beats. Elves beating Maverick is not an upset by any means while Hymn getting lands and you not drawing lands has been kitchen table norms for me since 1999. However, losing to RUG and Grixis almost never happens to me in my local and are normally the bread and butter of my successes in the 60-100 man events I go to at my locals. Those are solvable problems that makes me think I need to re-adjust how I think about the matchup moving forward. The two opponents I had were very good and I cannot afford to make any mistakes against players of that caliber, and if I want to continue doing well I will need to step it up some more.

[DoomRabbit]

Anyone have any insight on Punishing Maverick?
Been wanting to play it for a while because I like variety, and I now have the lands I need to play it when I'm not on trusty GW/b Maverick.

I've seen lists with deathrite:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15716&d=296254&f=LE

And lists leaning on noble hierarch instead:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15407&d=293768&f=LE

So far in limited testing I like deathrite over noble, because deathrite is flexible and makes red.

Any lists you guys particularly like?
Any thoughts on Domri, or Bloodbraid elf?
3 vs 4 wasteland?
3 vs 4 punishing fire?

[calcymon]

1-Maze of Ith

2-Orim's Chant

3-Sanctum Prelate




1- i am playing it as well, sometimes it's the winning card against flying or grixix frog, but as u said i will try not using it and going for 1 basic swamp, as u said before sometimes playing with only 3 basic it's really frustrating, i played "vs back to basic stoneblade" and dragonstompy and losing like a fool in the past 2 weeks' tournaments :frown: with hands full of decays

2- u used it in some matchups or no? i want to try them too :eek: but only vs combo decks? elves?

3-ye, they are really slow, i am trying to use them but feel like "oh no i dont have the secondo white specific" 90% of times :cry: it's a really good card when u cast it but i feel like 1 drop vs combo are better, gaddock + thalia + canonist kills many decks so securing a turn 2 it's a must, so maybe orim's chant its the best option :eek:


i am agree with using the combo in the main deck, as u i had won many games with it months ago :cool: it's worth the risk with 61 cards

[menloe]

Anyone have any insight on Punishing Maverick?
Been wanting to play it for a while because I like variety, and I now have the lands I need to play it when I'm not on trusty GW/b Maverick.

I've seen lists with deathrite:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15716&d=296254&f=LE

And lists leaning on noble hierarch instead:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15407&d=293768&f=LE

So far in limited testing I like deathrite over noble, because deathrite is flexible and makes red.

Any lists you guys particularly like?
Any thoughts on Domri, or Bloodbraid elf?
3 vs 4 wasteland?
3 vs 4 punishing fire?

Punishing Maverick was my first legacy deck and I've played it for about a year. I did the same thing as you but in reverse: I built Punishing Maverick first (because my local meta is mostly fair and features many creatures, though we do have Storm, Dredge, Miracles, Elves and such like) and then got the pieces for GWb Maverick.

I like Fabian Gorzgen's list from one of last year's MKM events: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12433&d=271511&f=LE. I like and use the E-Tutor sideboard but made a few changes and would make additional changes if I were to play it tomorrow (hasn't been updated since the SDT ban.) I like the inclusion of utility lands (Maze, TS+DD) in some of the spell slots because they give your Knights something more to do than just get swoll. I run a basic plains in place of the Horizon Canopy (and am very happy with this change), Ghostly Prison in place of Moat for financial reasons (and would likely drop altogether now), and a Scryb Ranger in place of the second Scooze (because she is rad.) I find myself GSZ for the Scryb way more often than Scooze. She gives you extra mana, allows you to do obscene things with your Knights, gives your creatures pseudo-vigilance if you have a forest, etc.

Meritt Elmasri, who posts as Seraphix here, is also a disciple of the Punishing Fire. Seraphix did well at an SCG event last year with this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12947&d=275417&f=LE. Notable is the inclusion of Thalia in the side, which is the right place for her if you're going to run her in Punishing Maverick, and the Crop Rotation as an additional way to produce a 20/20 flying invincible avatar token. Seraphix maintains a blog that's worth checking out (Green Sun for Zero) and is probably the only person who regularly writes about the archetype. PM me if the link to the Punishing Maverick primer is broken and I will fish out the link from my inbox for you. Or PM the man himself, as Seraphix is, I think, more than happy to discuss the deck with like-minded folk.

I don't think BBE warrants a slot. A one-of looks bad and there are better cards to run in the flex spots. It also probably wants 3-4 slots, which there's not really room for. She doesn't do enough and you would necessarily be cutting creatures that do enough to facilitate her inclusion.

I like the idea of Domri, but haven't tested him yet. I am also not entirely sure what his role is. Punching reluctant Tarmogoyfs with your swolled up Knights?

I always assumed only running three Wastelands was to make room for the additional lands (3 red sources in addition to the 3 Groves) you have to run to support Punishing Fire and the DD combo. There's also more of a cost to running colorless mana producing lands in Pun Mav than in GWb Mav since we are a true three color deck. You could drop the DD combo or Maze to make room for the additional Wasteland, but I think the combo and utility of Maze are well worth the slots they occupy. Playing to a board state that only Marit Lage can solve is a reasonable strategy and has won me plenty of games as has mising the combo in the early turns.

The fourth Punishing Fire takes a land or creature spot. The fourth is unnecessary since the spell is recursive, so the slot is better filled by a utility creature or land.

I like both variants of Maverick and would be hard pressed to say which I prefer. GWb has one or two less axes depending on the build and so serves fewer masters which leads to fewer mulligans. It has better mana and what you should do with the mana is clearer. Punishing Maverick sometimes has straight horseshit for hands, but the addition of Punishing Fire gives you a way to win that doesn't rely on the board. It's good against dudes, it's good against opposing PWs, and netting 1 damage a turn against an opponent until they are dead is something that happens and is a great way to spend a couple of hours.

Hope this helps!

Edited to include: The arguments for running DRS vs. more Nobles are interesting. DRS is a hell of a guy, as you suggest, but requires you to run at least one black source. This makes your mana worse in a deck that is approaching borderline in that regard. Noble is more consistent and is easier on your mana. Obviously DRS is more powerful and has a higher upside, which is why I run x3 DRS and x1 Noble, but the consistency arguments have weight.

[TMagpie]

1- i am playing it as well, sometimes it's the winning card against flying or grixix frog, but as u said i will try not using it and going for 1 basic swamp, as u said before sometimes playing with only 3 basic it's really frustrating, i played "vs back to basic stoneblade" and dragonstompy and losing like a fool in the past 2 weeks' tournaments :frown: with hands full of decays

2- u used it in some matchups or no? i want to try them too :eek: but only vs combo decks? elves?

3-ye, they are really slow, i am trying to use them but feel like "oh no i dont have the secondo white specific" 90% of times :cry: it's a really good card when u cast it but i feel like 1 drop vs combo are better, gaddock + thalia + canonist kills many decks so securing a turn 2 it's a must, so maybe orim's chant its the best option :eek:


i am agree with using the combo in the main deck, as u i had won many games with it months ago :cool: it's worth the risk with 61 cards

1.) I'm still not certain if I am willing to cut Maze of Ith or not--but leaning on a land to fight Wasteland decks feels not as strong as it could be.

2.) Elves is a particularly difficult match-up for me, but I find that it gets much easier if you focus on a kill plan instead of a sweeper plan. It's simply too easy for elves to just topdeck into Natural Order/Glimpse/Symbiote and suddenly you're either dead or buried in so much card advantage it doesn't matter that Jitte killed 5-6 elves. Orim's Chant is my caveat to that match without sacrificing on my storm hate. Yes, it only stops the elf player for a turn, but being that my plan versus elves is to resolve a Knight of the Reliquary to kill them with a Marit Lage, I only need to stall them for three turns instead of four. If you are not worried about elves--Thoughtseize would be a better general disruption tool as it doesn't require leveraging a certain timing.

3.) I started with 4 Sanctum Prelate, and I'm still not fully convinced that less than four is correct. I brought 2 to the GP primarily because I didn't want to lose to the main reason I run this card--Lands. Sanctum Prelate + Sofi can almost win matches against the Lands match all by herself. It also has uses in other matchups--but often not as good as turning off Life from the Loam AND Abrupt Decay AND Punishing Fire all at the same time. It has gone down to 2 because apart from Lands its fairly mediocre (but still welcome) versus the rest of the field.

[calcymon]

i agree all the points
:eek:

u ever had in mind to play 1 toxic 1 engineered plague instead of 2 toxic?:rolleyes: my last question :smile:
(yeah its risky since all play artifact/enchant removal post side vs us):cry:

[tescrin]

I like EPlague personally (Tutor-board), in part because it often not only kills 1-2 guys now, but it often requires them to GSZ (a win con) for RecSage, which dies as it lands meaning that you gained *another* card of CA in the process and took out their bouncing-kill-everything card; which is helpful. Putting elves into the "I have to answer his stuff" state is better than trying to answer them; as it forces them to search for cards rather than forcing you to look for cards. When you're not in blue, it's doubly important to put them on the defensive rather than looking to kill you. E-Plague is a good way to get 1-3+ turns of breathing room.

I think at the moment I'd favor ZP slightly over Deluge. Keeping your own boardstate is quite good and nipping a TNN in response to the equip-cost is a good tempo play (wasting their mana on nothing.) But deluge's sheer power level and ability to just say "Let's start over" has definitely been a winning way for me to deal with stalled-boardstates in my Junk days. I think this deck runs too many x/1's to want Deluge very often, but meh.

Despite my ranting on Mom, mom is also a decent win con against Elves, since a Pro-Green sword is usually not in the mix.

@TMagpie
Glad to hear Orim's did work (or that at least you like it)!

[calcymon]

i will probably try something like this, without ith, but it need testing :cool:



Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 13
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard: 15
2 Orim's Chant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Qasali Pridemage/ or maelstrom pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 engineered plague
2 ethersworn canonist (good combo with orim vs counter/combo decks i think, if u play orim on start of turn they will play nothing + you could gain 1 turn vs sneak/show:eek: or to prevent them to clean board with kozilek return)


i think personally that Toxic Deluge need to be used on side, vs some matchups is unexpected (i play vs maverick,no clean board cards! let's play all creatures i have and get advantage, boom Toxic) :cool:

engineered plague is goood vs plenty of matchups :wink:
elves
taxes -elemental
ur/grixis mage : snap - grim lavamancer - delver elemental: pyro tokens merfolk: True-Name
deathblade -True-Name
infect -ALL
eldrazi (bye bye mimic+gain more turns to kill them)
Merfolk
a board full of Baleful Strix :cry:
Thopter Foundry/Monk tokens's decks-forfunattornaments (they exist :frown:)
others decks:eek:



still not sure if 2 Thoughtseize or 3, but with "in orim we trust":cool:

[tescrin]

engineered plague is goood vs plenty of matchups :wink:

Agreed. I've locked out a couple grixis players by naming human (delver/pyro/lavaman/swiftspear/soul-scar) and I use it as an anti TNN card because it kills *this one* and all future TNNs until answered, and I really like putting the opponent in the position of having to answer cards. Especially decks that aren't BUG, as they often don't have a lot (or any) enchantment kill, making it quite reasonable.

I also use it against Lingering Souls, Monastery Monk, TES (tutorable Gobbo killer), and probably a few other things (as mentioned: Thopter decks, random tribal decks) and it's also a non-targeted kill card, so I sometimes just kill a Revoker or something. It's *really* good IME. Not good enough for a bunch of copies, but as a tutorable hate card/kill card, it's nice.

[TMagpie]

Engineered Plague is making my nether regions moist with anticipation. Must try it out.

[menloe]

Engineered Plague is making my nether regions moist with anticipation. Must try it out.

I too love Engineered Plague and it was one of the reasons I stuck with the E-Tutor board for as long as I did.

[calcymon]

I really like putting the opponent in the position of having to answer cards. Especially decks that aren't BUG, as they often don't have a lot (or any) enchantment kill, making it quite reasonable.

it's also a non-targeted kill card, so I sometimes just kill a Revoker or something. It's *really* good IME. Not good enough for a bunch of copies, but as a tutorable hate card/kill card, it's nice.

i agree at these points ^^
vs taxes u can avoid flickerwisp jumps :cool:to save pieces with it
i had lost many times vs 2 revokers on equips/shamans/kotr :rolleyes: or 2 flickerwisp attacking
i think its a really adaptable and strong



http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD07911W/
here is a non-combo deck with 3 different basics
still i dont accept gaddock not in main deck since he solowin vs ant :rolleyes:




i will probably try this build for few weeks

Creatures: 25
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor

Spells: 14
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Dark Depths

Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage

Sideboard: 15
2 Orim's Chant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom pulse (basic swamp coff coff)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 engineered plague
2 ethersworn canonist
1 Gaddock teeg


- or 3 stoneforge for 1 bird or Hierarch
- 4 mothers or 3 and 1 sylvan safekeeper (strong for combo)




still need to try rallier:eyebrow: a rly good player (friend of mine) is running it into his maverick but not playing the deck right now
[2 wasteland in a turn or jitte/mother of runes/stoneforge from grave is good main deck, but a sideout vs all shaman decks:frown: or grave hates sides, thats why i am afraid to play it]

[TheoryCraft]

With GP Las Vegas in the books, where does everyone see the direction of Maverick going? GW? GWb? Punishing? Same general principles as before, or new meta shifts requiring adaptation?

[Thunderknight]

I'm finally back from GP Vegas. I day 2'ed my first Legacy GP with my list, which I've been putting in a lot of hours, and it feels good to be rewarded. Went 6-3 Day 1. Went 2-3-1 in Day 2. I'll upload my tournament report after Its been edited out by my sponsor. But here's the list that I piloted.

4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
4x Knight of the Reqliary
2x Thalia, Heretical Cathar
1x Courser of Kruphix

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sylvan Library

4x Wasteland
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor

SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Ehtersworn Canonist
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge

Some notable conclusions:
1.) I don't like where Sanctum Prelate is right now. I just feel that its just too slow to answer the threats that need to be answer. I believe the reason the why it works in Death and Taxes is because they are running Recruiter to find it. Unless the Maverick List is running that package, I don't think we need Prelate. I've boarded it in against Storm, and that was it.
2.) Maze and Ith + Blessed Alliance. I've won many games with this interaction. Against Delver, Maze the Anger, and Alliance the TNM. Against Reanimator, any creature can go away. Blessed Alliance, IMO, should be at least 1x in sideboard if the list is running Maze. It's a versatile card that can be brought into many match-ups (Burn, Delver, Reanimator, Deathblade, Lands, Death and Taxes). Even if you are not sacrificing a creature, gaining 4 life and untapping Mom and Knights are strong plays.

I'm going to try to go all out on this report, because i feel that I have a lot of advice to give. I've been on this deck extensively for over a year now and I feel that I'm not getting the spotlight that I've been investing into. Just how I have see things.

[TMagpie]

I'm finally back from GP Vegas. I day 2'ed my first Legacy GP with my list, which I've been putting in a lot of hours, and it feels good to be rewarded. Went 6-3 Day 1. Went 2-3-1 in Day 2. I'll upload my tournament report after Its been edited out by my sponsor. But here's the list that I piloted.

4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scryb Ranger
4x Knight of the Reqliary
2x Thalia, Heretical Cathar
1x Courser of Kruphix

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sylvan Library

4x Wasteland
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor

SB:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Ehtersworn Canonist
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge

Some notable conclusions:
1.) I don't like where Sanctum Prelate is right now. I just feel that its just too slow to answer the threats that need to be answer. I believe the reason the why it works in Death and Taxes is because they are running Recruiter to find it. Unless the Maverick List is running that package, I don't think we need Prelate. I've boarded it in against Storm, and that was it.
2.) Maze and Ith + Blessed Alliance. I've won many games with this interaction. Against Delver, Maze the Anger, and Alliance the TNM. Against Reanimator, any creature can go away. Blessed Alliance, IMO, should be at least 1x in sideboard if the list is running Maze. It's a versatile card that can be brought into many match-ups (Burn, Delver, Reanimator, Deathblade, Lands, Death and Taxes). Even if you are not sacrificing a creature, gaining 4 life and untapping Mom and Knights are strong plays.

I'm going to try to go all out on this report, because i feel that I have a lot of advice to give. I've been on this deck extensively for over a year now and I feel that I'm not getting the spotlight that I've been investing into. Just how I have see things.

I hate to break it to you, but Maze does not remove creatures from combat. It untaps the creature and prevents the combat damage dealt to and dealt by the creature. I do believe that Blessed Alliance is a great magic card in Maverick. It just doesn't combo with Maze since they can just sac what you untap.

[Thunderknight]

I hate to break it to you, but Maze does not remove creatures from combat. It untaps the creature and prevents the combat damage dealt to and dealt by the creature. I do believe that Blessed Alliance is a great magic card in Maverick. It just doesn't combo with Maze since they can just sac what you untap.

Well I guess my opponents were really dumb then.

[TMagpie]

Well I guess my opponents were really dumb then.

Hey, its not your job to play for them :)

just word of warning for if you get to a big event.

[DoomRabbit]

Hope this helps!


Thanks for all the info!
Been play testing a bit with a list minus dark depths, and the punishing fire engine is quite something when it gets online.
Suffering to back to basics/blood moon though ;) not used to that with regular mav where I run 4 basics.

With regard to red sources, I've only got 2 red duals in atm (plateau + taiga), but six red producing dorks (4 DRS, 2 birds), any thoughts if that's enough or is the 3rd source essential?

[RPD]

Hi! I've been playing maverick for some time now (quite sparingly though, since legacy tournaments where I live don't fire often) and I have two questions:
By the way, the version I play is GWb with no 3 drops other than kotr.

1) Which are the cards that you think are good in delver matchups? I was always told that maverick had an amazing matchup vs brainstorm decks but in my experience the matchup is more close than favorable. For me, abrupt decay and a low curve have been my best tools to fight them but I don't know if there are better ways to approach it. Maybe the punishing version is better? I'm scared that adding grove to the deck makes our manabase even more vulnerable (opposing wastelands are harder than I initially thought)

2) In which matchups does the dark depths combo shine? I know that it's bad vs opposing dark depth decks and decks with wasteland/karakas, but I don't really know in which matchup it's consistently good.

Thanks

[Luthiereisfun]

Hi! I've been playing maverick for some time now (quite sparingly though, since legacy tournaments where I live don't fire often) and I have two questions:
By the way, the version I play is GWb with no 3 drops other than kotr.

1) Which are the cards that you think are good in delver matchups? I was always told that maverick had an amazing matchup vs brainstorm decks but in my experience the matchup is more close than favorable. For me, abrupt decay and a low curve have been my best tools to fight them but I don't know if there are better ways to approach it. Maybe the punishing version is better? I'm scared that adding grove to the deck makes our manabase even more vulnerable (opposing wastelands are harder than I initially thought)

2) In which matchups does the dark depths combo shine? I know that it's bad vs opposing dark depth decks and decks with wasteland/karakas, but I don't really know in which matchup it's consistently good.

Thanks

IMO fetching basics, landing a DRS and spot removal is key in beating Delver. As long as you can cast your spells and release immediate pressure you should have the inevitably of better creatures/getting equips online. I don't usually run it but maze of ith is a great card for slowing Delver decks down. Same goes for Scryb Ranger. Fantastic at blocking Delver all day.

One of the main reasons dark depths is run is because in any MU your behind, you can still have an out with marit large technically. As far as MU it shines in I would say any B/G/xx fair decks really struggle against it.

[menloe]

Thanks for all the info!
Been play testing a bit with a list minus dark depths, and the punishing fire engine is quite something when it gets online.
Suffering to back to basics/blood moon though ;) not used to that with regular mav where I run 4 basics.

With regard to red sources, I've only got 2 red duals in atm (plateau + taiga), but six red producing dorks (4 DRS, 2 birds), any thoughts if that's enough or is the 3rd source essential?

That seems reasonable.

[tescrin]

Thanks for all the info!
With regard to red sources, I've only got 2 red duals in atm (plateau + taiga), but six red producing dorks (4 DRS, 2 birds), any thoughts if that's enough or is the 3rd source essential?

Depending how deep you want to go, I *really* enjoyed having Young Pyromancer in Pfire/Loam (1-2 of) engine decks. Takes that card to a whole new level where you're not only gumming up the board and increasing your clock, but you're doing it in conjunction with decimating theirs. Can't promise anything, but it was very enjoyable.

[timmyod17]

Some notable conclusions:
1.) I don't like where Sanctum Prelate is right now. I just feel that its just too slow to answer the threats that need to be answer. I believe the reason the why it works in Death and Taxes is because they are running Recruiter to find it. Unless the Maverick List is running that package, I don't think we need Prelate. I've boarded it in against Storm, and that was it.
2.) Maze and Ith + Blessed Alliance. I've won many games with this interaction. Against Delver, Maze the Anger, and Alliance the TNM. Against Reanimator, any creature can go away. Blessed Alliance, IMO, should be at least 1x in sideboard if the list is running Maze. It's a versatile card that can be brought into many match-ups (Burn, Delver, Reanimator, Deathblade, Lands, Death and Taxes). Even if you are not sacrificing a creature, gaining 4 life and untapping Mom and Knights are strong plays.

I'm going to try to go all out on this report, because i feel that I have a lot of advice to give. I've been on this deck extensively for over a year now and I feel that I'm not getting the spotlight that I've been investing into. Just how I have see things.


Like you, I've been questioning Sanctum Prelate lately. It seems so good on paper but tends to be underwhelming in reality. It's occasionally great against a few decks (ANT, Lands, occasionally Sneak/Show) but it is so slow and color requirement is often prohibitive. More and more I just think there is better hate than Prelate with wider application and cheaper casting cost. Perhaps going back to an E-tutor board provides the right flexibility.

[TMagpie]

Like you, I've been questioning Sanctum Prelate lately. It seems so good on paper but tends to be underwhelming in reality. It's occasionally great against a few decks (ANT, Lands, occasionally Sneak/Show) but it is so slow and color requirement is often prohibitive. More and more I just think there is better hate than Prelate with wider application and cheaper casting cost. Perhaps going back to an E-tutor board provides the right flexibility.

Sanctum Prelate is one of the best tools ever given to Maverick in a long time. Note that I said tools, not staple.

The reason for this is that the card is meant to be part of firm lock and not, by itself, a purely disruptive spell. Teeg + Prelate allows you lock almost all non-creature spells in an opponent's deck--allowing you to fully dictate how the game plays out. You don't bring it in versus all spell heavy decks unless you can actually lock people out of spells.

As an example, Lands, ANT, Miracles, etc... are all decks where the combination of Prelate + Another hatebear almost locks them out of the entire game just by themselves. You don't bring it in versus decks with a large number of spells at different casting costs. Burn, RUG, Shardless, etc... are all spell heavy decks where simply having a 3cc Chalice is not good enough.

[Amace]

Hello follow Maverick Players,

I play Maverick since about 5 months now after playing ~2 years of TES/ANT.
I'm pretty happy now with Maverick and can deal with most opponents.
So I'm playing this weekend in a tournament and made a sideboard map.

http://https://ufile.io/tdyu9 (https://ufile.io/tdyu9)

It has 4 Categories to sideboarding(On the play/On the draw(right now they're the same since this already was a lot of work)) for the 14 Top Decks of MTGGoldfish.

Of course this is quite specifically for my list, which is currently this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Mother of Runes
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 23 Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Choke

// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

But I'd say all in all this is a pretty common list.

The document I uploaded is a PDF-file, so you can't actually edit it, if you want the Excel sheet, just ask.

Would be great if you could help me/anyone else here in this thread to improve the spreadsheet, specifically with OTP/OTD strategies but also just general suggestions or to add other matchups.
I'll update the sheet frequently.

Best regards and pardon for the mediocre grammar, english isn't my mothertounge
Amace

[aspsnake]

Hello follow Maverick Players,

I play Maverick since about 5 months now after playing ~2 years of TES/ANT.
I'm pretty happy now with Maverick and can deal with most opponents.
So I'm playing this weekend in a tournament and made a sideboard map.

http://https://ufile.io/tdyu9 (https://ufile.io/tdyu9)

It has 4 Categories to sideboarding(On the play/On the draw(right now they're the same since this already was a lot of work)) for the 14 Top Decks of MTGGoldfish.

Of course this is quite specifically for my list, which is currently this:

// 60 Maindeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 26 Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Mother of Runes
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 23 Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 5 Creature
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Choke

// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Blessed Alliance

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

But I'd say all in all this is a pretty common list.

The document I uploaded is a PDF-file, so you can't actually edit it, if you want the Excel sheet, just ask.

Would be great if you could help me/anyone else here in this thread to improve the spreadsheet, specifically with OTP/OTD strategies but also just general suggestions or to add other matchups.
I'll update the sheet frequently.

Best regards and pardon for the mediocre grammar, english isn't my mothertounge
Amace

Some small suggestions for mainboard-sideboard:
1) Deathrite is so good that I'd play 4 all day, he is just plain better in the majority of the cases than the bird. I can understand substituting Hierarch for him too. DRS allows us to screw opponents' DRS by stealing their food, while acting as a manadork/healer/damager themselves.
2) Qasali + Abrupt Decay mainboard count less than 2 is asking for trouble. I'd add either Decays or a second Qasali to the mainboard.
3) Qasali in sb, unless moved to mainboard, might be better of as a Reclamation Sage, as it serves as a possible hatebear vs Sneak-Show and Aluren (no mana needed to destroy Aluren!) and works when Qasali is Needled/Revokered. You will not bring it in vs Elves, so there is no anti-synergy with Engineered Plague.
4) Is a second Scooze in sb really worth it? In matchups where you bring it, wouldn't you be better with an extra Surgical Extraction? Either way, I feel that 2x Surgical Extraction in sb nowadays is a must.

[Megadeus]

I feel like Scooze is really underrated. It's very good in the deathrite mirror by turning theirs off and just in fair matches in general is very powerful. Yes against fast graveyard combo surgical is better, but scooze has more flexibility

[Rascalyote]

Scooze is sweet but I haven't played a second one in the board for a while. The way I feel is if I want a second scooze or scryb ranger etc then I'd just play a Renegade Rallier because by it can act as copies #2 of some bullets as well as do other stuff.

[Warden]

Hi! I've been playing maverick for some time now (quite sparingly though, since legacy tournaments where I live don't fire often) and I have two questions:
By the way, the version I play is GWb with no 3 drops other than kotr.

1) Which are the cards that you think are good in delver matchups? I was always told that maverick had an amazing matchup vs brainstorm decks but in my experience the matchup is more close than favorable. For me, abrupt decay and a low curve have been my best tools to fight them but I don't know if there are better ways to approach it. Maybe the punishing version is better? I'm scared that adding grove to the deck makes our manabase even more vulnerable (opposing wastelands are harder than I initially thought)

2) In which matchups does the dark depths combo shine? I know that it's bad vs opposing dark depth decks and decks with wasteland/karakas, but I don't really know in which matchup it's consistently good.

Thanks

Good questions.
1. Delver is favorable, as in "odds are slightly above 50-50". It is by no means a bye for Maverick.
A lot of what I'm saying comes from experience, trials, and tribulations. I've put up decent results with the following thoughts.

Philosophy: IMO, delver decks live and die by their efficiencies: small core of threats, great filtering, ultra-low curve. Remove 1 of those 3 components and the deck grinds to a halt.
-If they pack stifle/wasteland, play conservatively and fetch basics. I've been burned countless times for greedy "well a savannah here is dope" early...but then I missed hitting 3 mana down the road.
-Thalia 1.0 + Wasteland does serious damage. What do you know, those 2 cards are the core of Maverick.
-KotR usually distorts the game in your favor the longer she's out. Nobody seems to respect her but I'll GLADLY chain wastelands over a few turns to reduce their mana to the fringe basic they have (if it's even there at all!).
-Kill [Delver] as soon as possible. He only gets worse with time.
-The secondary threat can hit you a few times before you deal with it (usually a splash color creature...Pyro, Goyf, DRS I'm looking at you) . If you had 1 removal spell, shoot down delver before you this guy. I say this because most often, the secondary threat lacks evasion. Mom & co can chump block for days.
-Ghost Quarter and Thalia 2.0 are "alternative options" for Maverick that kick Delver in the nuts. Personal choice on running them (as they will impact other matchups).
-SFM is hit or miss. If she (or the equipment) is removed/discarded, Delver capitalizes.

Removal: Everyone on the thread will disagree about the "best" removal card to run. If mana weren't an issue, I'd pick Decay over anything else. It invalidates their countermagic that the delver pilot banks on as protection (daze, force, etc). Since mana is a key to MTG, I begin with STP and proceed from there. STP doesn't discriminate against Angler and other higher cc "delve-casted" stupids.

Brainstorm isn't the problem: Alone in a vacuum brainstorm isn't the problem card. You need to stop Delver from profitably chaining 3-4 things a turn.
Brainstorm / fetch / probe / cast removal spell / attack with something.
Fetch / tap fetched land for U to Brainstorm / return fetched land to hand for daze / make pyro tokens in the process.
Ponder / Probe / Therapy for profit / DRS damage.
I tend to bring in 2x Canonists against Delver, which I find helps tremendously in conjunction with Thalia 1.0. Make shit cost more. Restrict them to 1 spell per turn. Sanctum Prelate is fragile against Delver and I tend to keep her on the bench unless I have irrelevant garbage in the main.

I dread facing RUG. They seem to always consistently ruin my day. Forked Bolt is a beating. Pyroclasm effects also hurt.
I enjoy UR delver, which I feel I'm heavily favored if I make it through turn 4 with momentum like KotR or a small team to slow them down.

***
2. I've had very strong success with DD/Stage but it takes a mentality shift: You're inevitably going to combo. You don't need to bee-line for it, but it certainly is there. The combo suffers against wasteland, karakas, maze of ith type roadblocks. I've naturally had it in the opener and won. I've broke open grindy stalemates. I've taken advantage of an opponent not realizing double KotR activations is GG. It wins through chalice. It wins by flying over everyone. Running DD/Stage requires GSZ. It also (arguably) makes your manabase worse. If you don't mind the greedy manabase, it will help your deck reach an auto-win against most fair decks. It does almost nothing against combo or control. You also should consider 1-2x Scryb Ranger main to make DD/Stage better...but my opinion of this setup is mixed.

[Rascalyote]

My favourite Maverick (almost) exclusive play is the turn 2 Thalia + Wasteland. With regards to delver and killing it ASAP I agree except I'd probably hold onto the turn 1 plow just to make sure it doesn't get dazed because we don't have that many removal spells and we can't search for them.

The games I usually lose to Delver are the fast draws where I die before I can really get my game plan rolling, practice winning the die roll - It's huge in this MU :^). I lose to UR Delver a lot more than RUG, but I'm on Thoughtseize main over cards like decay so that surely doesn't help lol.

Nice post above but just want to point out that while normally Wasteland, Karakas, and Maze are all strong against Lage, in this deck our means of getting the 20/20 in play involve an active Knight, which beats all those cards by taking a turn off to find wasteland.

[TMagpie]

In the current meta--is it better to have 3 Thalia or 0 Maze of Ith? Asking for a friend, not me, and that friend is feeling really insecure about his 61 card list and would like to go down to 60 :(

The friend is also possibly me. Or not.

[Koby]

In the current meta--is it better to have 3 Thalia or 0 Maze of Ith? Asking for a friend, not me, and that friend is feeling really insecure about his 61 card list and would like to go down to 60 :(

The friend is also possibly me. Or not.

Cut the Maze. There's far too many Wastelands in the metagame to make it effective. It's at best a one turn fog with KotR.

[tescrin]

feeling really insecure about his 61 card list
I really don't get why so many people get uptight about card 61. It's splitting the difference between one more land and one more business card, almost exactly. And once you're in Green lists that have:
* Land tutoring
* Equipment tutoring
* GSZ tutoring

having the extra tutor target is entirely defensible. If you're playing locals and what not, I'd encourage it even more because the stakes are low and the variance (since you'll only get a few rounds) is so high that you won't see the difference.

If you're doing a 10+ round tournament and there's a lot riding on it.. sure, go 60. But honestly, when you have so many tutors and then may even run a tutor-board on top of that? May as well jam the extra game-changer to tutor up.


Note: I'm always cognizant of the "slippery slope" claim, but there is none. Card 62 is no longer splitting a land in half, it's altering the proportions enough (normally Mtg decks have ~20 lands) that you may as well go to 63, because you've changed the dynamic. 61 IMO is different due to how the statistics line up, but 62+ is altering statistics in a way that demands you add another land probably, meaning you're losing out.

Also note: some decks have made it to top tables with 61 and even 62/63 cards (though the higher numbers were because they were "extra" Gitaxian Probes and I believe it was in RUG Delver decks)

[calcymon]

In the current meta--is it better to have 3 Thalia or 0 Maze of Ith? Asking for a friend, not me, and that friend is feeling really insecure about his 61 card list and would like to go down to 60 :(

The friend is also possibly me. Or not.

i will probably going to cut maze, main deck is rly random, sometimes is good but 90% of times no
in today tournament it won a game vs taxes since he didn't know it was in my deck : kotr tap maze into combat untap an equipped flicker :eek:
but it's so easy to counter : wasterland, piting needle (flicker needle change target gg)
probably going for a 22 lands no combo with 2 scryb ranger, scryb is winning alone 50% of games, some decks have big problems with mothers+ranger main or shaman+ranger main or a ranger equipped with sword:cry:
it's the golden card i am rly enjoying to play atm more than 1x

[RPD]

IMO fetching basics, landing a DRS and spot removal is key in beating Delver. As long as you can cast your spells and release immediate pressure you should have the inevitably of better creatures/getting equips online. I don't usually run it but maze of ith is a great card for slowing Delver decks down. Same goes for Scryb Ranger. Fantastic at blocking Delver all day.

I ran maze of ith in the sideboard today and it was amazing! it's just one slot and does so much for this matchup (and some others too). Anyway I don't think i want it in the maindeck like many people here play.


Philosophy: IMO, delver decks live and die by their efficiencies: small core of threats, great filtering, ultra-low curve. Remove 1 of those 3 components and the deck grinds to a halt.
-If they pack stifle/wasteland, play conservatively and fetch basics. I've been burned countless times for greedy "well a savannah here is dope" early...but then I missed hitting 3 mana down the road.
-Thalia 1.0 + Wasteland does serious damage. What do you know, those 2 cards are the core of Maverick.
-KotR usually distorts the game in your favor the longer she's out. Nobody seems to respect her but I'll GLADLY chain wastelands over a few turns to reduce their mana to the fringe basic they have (if it's even there at all!).
-Kill [Delver] as soon as possible. He only gets worse with time.
-The secondary threat can hit you a few times before you deal with it (usually a splash color creature...Pyro, Goyf, DRS I'm looking at you) . If you had 1 removal spell, shoot down delver before you this guy. I say this because most often, the secondary threat lacks evasion. Mom & co can chump block for days.
-Ghost Quarter and Thalia 2.0 are "alternative options" for Maverick that kick Delver in the nuts. Personal choice on running them (as they will impact other matchups).
-SFM is hit or miss. If she (or the equipment) is removed/discarded, Delver capitalizes.
I'm starting to play around stifle more, but if someone has tips for knowing which version plays it and which doesn't, it would be helpful. I know that grixis and UR generally don't play it, but sultai sometimes does (not always).
I have to agree about killing delver ASAP. Today I left some delvers live for some turns and it wasn't the best idea. As the spells in our deck line up with theirs, swords for delver is the best way to deal with it.

Today I played this list in a small tournament. Went 2-1 finishing second, won vs miracles (2-0) and grixis delver (2-1), lost vs reanimator (1-2)
//Lands
1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

//Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

//Instants
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
Vs miracles I did the gaddock+mom lock game one, game two I manascrewed him a bit and discarded some key pieces with thoughtseize. Vs delver, maze of ith did so much work. I wouldn't have won without it. I got the perfect kill, which was super sweet (my opponent died to a KotR with no cards in hand, no permanents on the battlefield). I managed to win one game vs reanimator but chancelor of the annex is a beating. I even left mother of runes post sideboard as a 1 drop to break the chancelor tax, just so I could cast surgical and friends.

[DoomRabbit]

Took punishing mav to a tournament for the first time, went 3-2-1 which after starting 2-0 was a bit disappointing, but considering one 4-2 made top8 I wasn't too far ;)
Overall 17th out of 43 players.

Decklist:
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// 24 Creature
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Noble Hierarch

// 1 Enchantment
1 Sylvan Library

// 7 Instant
3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 22 Land
1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith


// Sideboard
// 8 Creature
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Choke

// 5 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Fiery Justice


Matchups:
Elves 2-1
Lost a close game one where I locked him out with Gaddock Teeg and he fizzled with glimpse a few times, but he finally drew a craterhoof and smashed in for 100+ damage. G2-3 Sideboard cards from me really wrecked him, Fiery Justice is a house here, canonist and containment priest also doing a great job. On top of that punishing fire is pretty amazing here.
Reanimator 2-0
G1 he reanimates a tidespout tyrant, but can't bounce much with it. I go to swords, he has force. Over the next few turns he beats in for 5, while I wasteland him to 0 lands. Finally draw another swords, play Teeg to keep it safe, and get the tyrant off the table. Then proceed to beat down with 2/2s while he can't cast anything. G2 He reanimates an Inkwell Leviathan (I have two swords in hand...) but I manage to race him with thalia beats + DRS drain + punishing fire that I forgot to board out...
4c control 0-2
Very long G1 where he answers everything I do, but I keep drawing gas, finally a few 2 for 1's swing things in his favour (Kholagan's Command hitting batterskull + a creature ouch), and he sticks a Jace and that's game. G2 goes similarly, then I land a choke and game on, but he gets Liliana the Last Hope into play and plusses to slow my beats and finally ultimates and I die very fast.
Eldrazi 1-2
G1 Get smashed by Thought not into Smasher. G2 Stick a knight and wasteland lock him, finally swing in with two 10/10 knights. G3 repeat of game 1. Play/Draw seems super important here.
GWb maverick 2-1
The mirror!(ish). Don't get to play that very often! G1 Punishing fire stops him from doing anything. G2 Showcases the power of cradle as he empties my graveyard with scooze in one turn to shrink my knights to break a board stall. G3 I get to stick 2 knights early and the game ends pretty fast. The punishing version looks to have an edge in the mirror, the extra removal is very relevant.
Eldrazi 1-1-1
G1 Mimic into smasher into Endbringer, I die. G2 Big knight + wastelands. G3 he has a slow start, I get knight out and start going to town, he has all is dust and plays mimic + smasher, but he's been tanking hard all this game and we go to time before he can kill me.

I learned a lot from these games, and definitely played sub-optimally. Need to work on figuring out the lines with the new cards. Missed a few tracker triggers, both getting a clue and the counter. You should have seen my face light up in the elves game when I figured out I could get my punishing fires back by pathing a dryad arbor.

A few notes about the list.
- I'm still unsure on DRS vs noble in this build. DRS was great vs Reanimator, and produced a lot of red mana for me, but in a few games just sat there looking at land-free graveyards while I really needed the mana.
- Dark Depths. Didn't run it here, I'm a bit weary of it in GWb and wanted to try a lean list to get started, but I do think it could have won me a few of the games I lost. Would it have cost me any of the games I won? Hard to tell. I'll try it when I get my crop rotations.
- I really missed Gaea's cradle. It might be a bit worse with the lower creature count, but that mana boost is so helpful in tight spots.

Anyway I'll keep jamming punishing fires for a bit, the deck is really fun to play (But then it's Maverick so isn't it always ;) ).

[calcymon]

just an info :

scryb ranger + renegade rallier :eek:

if a permanent you control left the battlefield this turn

[TMagpie]

just an info :

scryb ranger + renegade rallier :eek:

if a permanent you control left the battlefield this turn

It still boggles me that phasing does not leave the battlefield but yet allows cards to re-enter the battlefield.

[tescrin]

It still boggles me that phasing does not leave the battlefield but yet allows cards to re-enter the battlefield.

Be boggled no longer:

702.24d The phasing event doesn't actually cause a permanent to change zones or control, even though it's treated as though it's not on the battlefield and not under its controller's control while it's phased out. Zone-change triggers don't trigger when a permanent phases in or out. Counters remain on a permanent while it's phased out. Effects that check a phased-in permanent's history won't treat the phasing event as having caused the permanent to leave or enter the battlefield or its controller's control

Also of note, phasing still counts as a zone change and thus exiles tokens. You may "Get got" by Sapphire Charm on a token sometime, and phasing won't bring attached things back in if the thing it was attached to no longer exists (E.G. a token.)


EDIT: I can't figure out why phasing was brought up? I can't even figure out why the guy mentioned Scryb + Rallier other than being a neat interaction.
SECONDS LATER: Oh, as another way that'd be nice to trigger. Well.. one mystery down.. one to go.

[Thunderknight]

After a long recovery from the super GP called Las Vegas. I want to share my experiences with the legacy community on my first Legacy GP with my old-faithful deck: Maverick. The goal that I set for this GP was to Day 2 my first Legacy GP.

A little background about myself regarding to legacy, I’ve been playing the format since GP NJ (aka GP Treasure cruise and True-Name Nemesis). I’ve mostly been a kitchen top player, playing weird decks like Cheerios, Storm, Ant, Hide Tide, and other glass cannon decks. When I had the funds to go for a competitive legacy deck, I picked Maverick because in my opinion it was the most resilient deck at the time. I’ve been piloting Maverick variants decks a little over a year, and I felt it was time to show the world what I’ve been brewing.

So this is the list that I submitted. Keep in mind that I made the last minute change to add 2x Thalia, Heretical Cathar, and 1 Maze of Ith.

Creatures:
4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Bird of Paradise
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Knight of the Reliqary
2x Thalia, Heretical Cathar
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dryad Arbor

Non-land, Non-creature:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sylvan Library

Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Gaea’s Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Blessed Alliance.

I’m known to run some spice cards in Maverick, so here they are:
1.) Sigarda: Now that I’m not running Collected Company, I needed something to provide the late game kill. It was between her and Titania. Both have the same purpose but provide different end states. Even though Titania requires a bit of a set-up (wasteland/Fetch and/or Knight to get the engine going), she can close out games faster. Sigarda, on the other hand, is difficult to remove from the battlefield, provides a clock, and protects our permanent.
2.) Blessed Alliance: Card has multiple uses, like removing an Emrakul, Progenitus, and True Name Nemesis.

Round 1.) 2-0 Against Bottomless Breakfast (Rd 1 Bye)
Turn 1 omelet into Turn 2 2 Mimosa is very strong play.

Round 2.) 0-2 Against Grixis Delver (Record 1-1)
Game 1 was close but I misplay by not activating my knight to get bigger. Game 2 I mulled to 4 to try to find a land. I quickly died to Young Pyromancer beats, I had abrupt decay in my hand, but I drew no lands that game. Variance right.

Round 3.) 2-1 Against Mono Blue Stiflenaught (Record 2-1)
Game 1 they played turn 3 True Name Nemesis, followed up by turn 4 cast 2 Phantasmal Image, copying True Name Nemesis. Game 2 I won with Thalia, Heretical Cathar and Sword of fire and Ice. Game three They Force my turn 1 Bird of Paradise, and turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (I thought they wanted to slam Back to Basic without any way for me to comeback). Instead of Turn 3 Back to Basic, they cast Torpor Orb, followed up by Phyrexian Dreadnaught. I drew my only copy of swords and plow the creature away. They followed up with another dreadnaught, at which point I cast blessed alliance when they attacked with it. I proceeded to win the game with a knight and equipment.
Round 4.) 2-0 Against Grixis Delver (Record 3-1)
TBH I don’t remember much in this match. All I know is that I had three knights in play and won.

Round 5.) 1-2 Against Burn (Record 3-2)
Game one I stabilize at 4 to find Umezawa’s Jitte to equipped to Courser of Krupix and start swinging with it. Game two I made a misplay and I should have obtain gaddock teeg instead of Scryb Ranger from GSZ because I died to Bolt, Bolt, Fire Blast. Game three was super close, but I took too much life from Horizon Canopy, which killed me because I couldn’t tap it to swords my knight to gain life.

Round 6.) 2-1 Against Alluren (Record 4-2)
Game one I knocked-out my opponent by having Thalia, Heretical Cathar and my 7/7 Knight of the Reliquary attacking. I didn’t see any Alluren pieces, so I thought I was facing Shardless BUG. Game two I was combed out by Alluren, and I had no reclamation sage to help me. Game 3 I Thougtseize the Alluren on my turn 1, and on turn 2 I abrupt decay the Shardless Agent so that I can surgical extract it. I won on turn 5 when my opponent cast Clique during my drew step, at which point I responded to the trigger with zealous persecution to win the game with my now 5/5 Knight.
Round 7.) 2-1 Against ANT (Record 5-2)
I won the die roll, so I went turn 1 Mother of Runes. My opponent’s turn 1 was probe, probe, lotus petal, dark ritual, dark ritual, lotus petal, lotus petal, cabal ritual, Ad Naseem to find Agony of Tendrills and win game 1. Game two I was able to cast Sanctum Prelate on 4 with a Gaddock Teeg on the battlefield (In hindsight I should have name 1 instead of 4). Game three I won by having a Mother of Runes, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and Ethersworn Canonist on the battlefield.

Round 8.) 0-2 Against Reanimator (Record 5-3)
I don’t remember much from this match-up, with the exception of my opponent cast Sneak Attack, and put in Emrakul.

Round 9.) Against Grixis Delver
Game one I was able to Turn 2 Thalia+Wasteland. The game ended with me having a Umezawa’s Jitte on Thalia. Game two they were able to set up two True Name Nemesis and I quickly went to 0. Game three was very close. We exchange removal back and forth until I had a Jitte, 4 lands, and a Maze of Ith on the battlefield, while my opponent had Deathrite Shaman, 3 lands, and two cards in hand. I drew the card that could win me the game, but I don’t have enough mana for it. My opponent plays a Young Pyromancer, to which I removed her by swords to plowshares. I drew a Verdant Catacombs, play it, crack it, grab a Bayou, put 5 mana into my pool. My opponent says, “Batterskull”?, to which I replied, “No, Sigarda, Host of Herons. Pass turn”. My opponent face went from optimistic to horror as a 5/5 Angel Is staring him down. At this point we had an audience, and I knew I was winning this game. They drew for turn, played Delver of Secrets and pass back, I drew Zealous Persecution and won the game with a lethal swing.

So yeah I’m 6-3 for my first Legacy GP and I’m almost wanted to jump out of my seat. I couldn’t believe that I’m going to Day 2 my first Legacy GP. And now we’re off to bed to prepare myself for Day 2.

Round 10: 0-2 Against Reanimator (6-4)
Game 1 they natural had combo: umask, umask, dark ritual, entomb, reanimate grislebrand, pass. I quickly died from that. Game 2 was more grindy, and I made a misplay where I should have casted ethersworn canonist instead of Sanctum Prelate on 2. My thought process was to slow them down, but it doesn’t help when they can just cast Blood Moon and locked me out of colors.

Round 11: 1-1-1 Against RG Lands (6-4-1)
Game 1 was very grindy, but I was able resolve Thalia, Heretical Cathar, and start wasteland their groves. Game two was over in 3 turns by them casting Manabond, and dump the Dark Depth Combo on the battlefield. Game three was grindy. Barbarian ring is a good card against me after them recurring it back from Loam. We went to turns, which on turn 5 I was at 1 life and they attacked with the 20/20, to which point I drew the card from Horizon canopy a swords to plowshares to not die that turn.

Round 12: 0-2 Against Grixis Control (6-5-1)
I don’t remember much, complete blowout from them with an unanswered Jace, Mind Sculptor.

Round 13: 2-0 Against Simic Food Chain (7-5-1)
Game 1 I won the die roll, to which before I played my land for turn, they drop Leyline of Anticipation. I died on turn 4 with Food Chain. Game 2 and 3 won very similary: turn 1 thoughtseize followed up by surgical extraction Food Chain, while providing beats with Knights and Thalia, Heretical Cathar.

Round 14: 2-0 Against Dragon Stompy (8-5-1)
Despite having multiple Blood Moon effects out. My opponent was stuck on 3 lands because of Thalia, GOT. Sword of Fire and Ice wins the match hands down in both games.

Round 15: Insert bad matchup against Maverick (8-6-1)
I don’t remember which match up this was. But I lost to it.

Conclusion.
I placed 421st, which is Top 15% of the total population. This is highest achievement for me from playing competitive magic. I want to thank Black Magic Gaming for sponsoring me for this event, along with the players that I’ve meet along the way. I hope to get Top 128 for the next Legacy GP. Until then I’m going to go back on playing some fun decks, like Junk Deathblade, or Esper Death and Taxes.

[MagicGuy]

How did you feel about Mom? Some ppl are advocating for taking her out. Which, I can see in a combo filled meta. You had plenty of fair match's though. Also, your land count is low. Did 22 lands (including Maze) have you starving for mana?

[Thunderknight]

How did you feel about Mom? Some ppl are advocating for taking her out. Which, I can see in a combo filled meta. You had plenty of fair match's though. Also, your land count is low. Did 22 lands (including Maze) have you starving for mana?

1.) How did you feel about Mom?

I believe that its important to have Mom. Turn 1 mom into turn two what ever creature lands means it going to be harder for any of ours creatures to be removed. Also it's important as far as damage prevention if we need to be on the defense. Scryb Ranger makes the deck not easy, and I can say if any Maverick pilot who chooses to run that creature, Mom + Scryb Ranger is a annoying ass lock to break. I can acknowledge cutting Mother of Runes to increase speed (playing T1 Noble into T2 3 drop or something), but she's a threat on her own. Players have to remove mom on spot because the latter the game goes the harder it is to remove her. Even in a combo filled meta, decks like Food Chain/Alluren still struggle against Canonist. Mom + Canonist is annoying for them.

2.) Land count

There's a few times where I was starving for mana, but at the same time I felt that I created a large board presence for them to deal. Maverick vs Lands is a skilled match, because we have to be very careful on what lands we are getting. I'm still an advocate of MB on Maze of Ith, because I build my 75 first, and then move cards to the SB, and I found that Maze of Ith SB is awkward.

[MagicGuy]

In the lands matchup Sanctum Prelate on 2 is hands down best thing we can do. I have been toying with Noble's in place of Mom's recently but have not played enough to determine what I like better. My thinking is better top decks late game. Not that Noble is a better top deck, but early ramp makes for a better late game. I like Renegade Rallier with Wasteland but it might be too cute. And the crucible on a stick that's coming out looks neat.

[tescrin]

While (whenever it was) I was harping about Mom, it was mostly that it is non-synergistic with the deck's core principle of "Ramp into dudes, GSZ for bullets" and because she's slow. IMO; while Sylvan Safekeeper is not CA, he's also GSZ-able and much easier to create game-locks with. Add in GSZ-Crucible-Snake and you have a guy who can out-sweat anything but Deluges.

Safekeeper also allows max-saccing with KotR for a "swing for the win" situation, and if one is worried about their lands, 2x SS 2x Loam can replace the moms, synergizing with the Wasteland plan and the Mana-dork plan (as Dork->Waste + Loam is just as good as Dork->Waste + Thalia. It's the same play effectively.)

I really think the deck should be looking to maximize the "opponent is manascrewed" plan and the "I am ramping T1" plan. I think if I wrote a list today it would be:

-25-
4 Noble
3 DRS
2 Safekeeper
3 Thalia
3 QPM
2 SFM
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
3 KotR
1 Courser
1 Tracker
1 Arbor

-3-
3 Equips (SoFaI, SoBaM, Jitte)

-12-
4 GSZ
4 Plow
2 Decay
2 Loam

-21-
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Waste
8 fetch
1 Horizon
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains


Loads of CA, ready to manascrew your opponent with a swarm of wastes; and the possibility of Ghost Quartering people out as well. Adjusting a card here and there (4th Thalia, 4th Knight, etc.) seems fine; but this is probably where I'd start. But; this is a one-off since I said I'd shut up haha

[Thunderknight]

In the lands matchup Sanctum Prelate on 2 is hands down best thing we can do. I have been toying with Noble's in place of Mom's recently but have not played enough to determine what I like better. My thinking is better top decks late game. Not that Noble is a better top deck, but early ramp makes for a better late game. I like Renegade Rallier with Wasteland but it might be too cute. And the crucible on a stick that's coming out looks neat.

IMO One of the best cards that wins against that match-up is Thalia, Heretical Cathar and sigarda, Host of Herons

Not only all of their lands come in tapped, but they can't maximize their plays because of that. Even if they loam, they can't wasteland you the same turn. This is also the reason why I want Mother of Runes. THC+ Mom is really hard for them to beat. Yes, Sanctum Prelate on 2 locks them out for the longest time, but Barbarian Ring is annoying as hell to deal. You need to DRS that card as soon as it hits the graveyard.

Lets be honest without ourselves, A lot of decks can't beat Sigarda once it lands on the battlefield. There are very little tools that see play that can remove her effectively. (A Timely Toxic Deluge or Council's Judgement

The way that I approach this deck is that we are a weird Aggro-Prison deck. We like to maximize our taxes, while applying pressure with the small army.

[MagicGuy]

Maverick is a toolbox hatebear/utility deck that uses KotR or another critter (armed of course) to kill the opponent. Sigarda is good, I've even main decked her a few months ago when BUG was everywhere and Liliana was common enough. @tescrin: I was watching the post back when you said that. You made me think outside the box with you. It's not blasphemy, it's a desire to be better. I'm not sure I'm a fan of loam though. It can come out in games 2 and 3 idk, I don't like over committing to graveyard synergy just to be blown out by whatever they bring in in response.

[Lockeid]

IMO One of the best cards that wins against that match-up is Thalia, Heretical Cathar and sigarda, Host of Herons

Lets be honest without ourselves, A lot of decks can't beat Sigarda once it lands on the battlefield. There are very little tools that see play that can remove her effectively. (A Timely Toxic Deluge or Council's Judgement


Tabernacle destroys the creature, it doesn't make you sacrifice it, so it could effectively get rid of her. Although if you manage to summon her, you likely have enough mana to pay for her upkeep.

[TMagpie]

IMO One of the best cards that wins against that match-up is Thalia, Heretical Cathar and sigarda, Host of Herons

Not only all of their lands come in tapped, but they can't maximize their plays because of that. Even if they loam, they can't wasteland you the same turn. This is also the reason why I want Mother of Runes. THC+ Mom is really hard for them to beat. Yes, Sanctum Prelate on 2 locks them out for the longest time, but Barbarian Ring is annoying as hell to deal. You need to DRS that card as soon as it hits the graveyard.

Lets be honest without ourselves, A lot of decks can't beat Sigarda once it lands on the battlefield. There are very little tools that see play that can remove her effectively. (A Timely Toxic Deluge or Council's Judgement

The way that I approach this deck is that we are a weird Aggro-Prison deck. We like to maximize our taxes, while applying pressure with the small army.

I often found that the issue with Sigarda was cost. ie, 6 mana for GSZ or 5 mana with WW are both really tall orders.

However, if you are cutting Moms for Noble Hierarch--I think not running a combination of Sigarda and/or Thrun in this setup is folly. If you are removing your only real form of protection, then you need to run things that protect themselves.

[MagicGuy]

Makes sense, one of the guys at the LGS was trying out Nahiri, the Lithomancer in the side board. When he brought it in he said it was rediculous.

[Skizz]

hey Folks!

as nobody wirtes about punishing fire maverick i just want to let you know that i won 4:0 at our LGS today

i beat Goblins, Sultai-Superfriends, RG-Lands and Food Chain

the deck is a blast to play.... also im looking forward to build some spicy GWb list after we get Ramunap Excatators :)

our meta is full of grixis, lands, aggro loam, maverick, Show and tell and other stuff (no other Combo decks atm)

i wanted to build the deck as resilent as it can be against removal and it worked out for me.
(Sylvan Safekeeper, Renegade Ralier, LftL, Tireles Tracker, Courser of Kruphix)

here`s the list:
Mainboard:
1 Forrest
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradies
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scrybranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasal Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green Suns Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Sudden Demise
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Wear // Tear
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Councils Judgement
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thrun the last Troll :laugh:
3 Surgical Extraction


funny Things:
copied dark depths from Lands-Player and beat him with his Marit Lage (with Protection in form of Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper on my side)
Thrun the last Troll laughed against Lands after sideboaring - beating him from 20-0 alone.
kept a starting Hand with all 3 Punishing Fires against Sultai Superfriends and lost all of them on his turn 2 via Cabal Therapy :D still won this round with lots of creatures and Jitte
round two against Goblins i started with nonbasic+Deathrite and he slams Bloodmoon on his turn two.. no lands in graveyard.... i topeck my Basic Forrest and won from that spot on.
against Food chain game 2: i cast sudden demise for 2 on black turn two and killed his shaman and baleful strix. after that wasteland into renegade rallier into wasteland was really brutal


Stay Fair! :wink:
Skizz

[Elpresidente]

went 4-0 at locals with dark mav, 5/8 games won with Dark depths combo. Only loss was to stumbling on mana to a TNN Jitte. Deck was great.

[T-101]

I dusted off the ol' Legacy cards and played this today at a 4 round tournament.

4x Deathrite
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia
4x Knight
2x Stoneforge
1x Mr. Teeg
1x Scooze
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage

1x Renegade Rallier
1x Leovold
1x Courser of Kruphix

4x Swords
4x Green Sun's
1x SoFaI
1x Jitte

4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Wasteland
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage

SB

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Zealous
1x Mr. Teeg
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Council's Judgment
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maze of Ith

Notable non-regular things going on include 24th land (counting Dryad Arbor), Leovold, Rallier, and Courser.

I played against DnT (2/0), BUG Delver (2/1), ANT (2/1), and intentionally drew against Czech Pile in the finals (we played for fun, and I went 1/2).

I got to do all the sweet things that this deck wants to do today, which felt very good. Courser for some extra lands, made a Marit Lage, Green Sun'd for Leovold, got Leyline against Storm and also got to Prelate for 4 against Storm.

I'm interested in trying a build without Mother of Runes, because sometimes that card is straight terrible, but I didn't make time to flesh out a Motherless build today. She ended up being very useful today, but I always feel like there's so little room for bullet creatures, and cutting Mother for more bullet slots sounds pretty good.

Leovold was good, not great. I definitely like having him around as an option against any deck playing blue. While I love Rallier, I didn't get much use out of it today, and found myself boarding him out against Deathrite decks because anything that I'd want to get back would get eaten in response. Cool in concept, but in a meta so filled with DRS I think I'd be happier filling that slot with something else. Prelate was a pretty big badass against Storm. Even though it basically just functioned as a non-Green Sunable Teeg, having more of that effect was good.

Felt good to play this deck again, especially with the new tools that have been printed. I can't wait to get a Crucible Man next weekend and jam one in this deck. The dream of endless Wastelands is something I must purse. Knight can "only" get 4, and can't usually attack while doing that, but Crucible Man lets you Waste every turn, while gaining card advantage, while also bashing with a big fat Knight.

[Claymore]

The last time I ran this deck, I purposefully gsz for Rallier so I could get a Library that was countered/destroyed. I ended up losing that game where a Knight would have eventually won it.

Fun card but seems weak at times.

[Skizz]

The last time I ran this deck, I purposefully gsz for Rallier so I could get a Library that was countered/destroyed. I ended up losing that game where a Knight would have eventually won it.
Fun card but seems weak at times.

i totally agree with you! i dont like it in my builds as well - but somehow in the punishing version it was really cool - especially in combination with sylvan safekeeper to get my lands back.
....knight is always gsz target number 1 if you search for x=3 :smile:

[Elpresidente]

Top 8'd a monthly going 4-0-2 (ID) and losing in top 8 to grixis delver when I couldn't find a 4th land. Beat Eldrazi, Dragon Stompy, Jund, and Turbo Depths.

[TheoryCraft]

Here's a super-quick list I threw together of core cards for a GWb Maverick list that is Mother-less (at least mainboard) and includes our new green Crucible friend:

Creatures (26)
4 Noble Hierach
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Ramunap Excavator

Non-Creature Spells (10)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

23 lands (including 1 Dryad Arbor)

That leaves 1 flex spot for more Ramunap Excavators, Sylvan Library, AD, etc. The idea being to hit more reliable mana and keeping the mana denial strat as per the usual. Thoughts?

[TMagpie]

Here's a super-quick list I threw together of core cards for a GWb Maverick list that is Mother-less (at least mainboard) and includes our new green Crucible friend:

Creatures (26)
4 Noble Hierach
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Ramunap Excavator

Non-Creature Spells (10)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

23 lands (including 1 Dryad Arbor)

That leaves 1 flex spot for more Ramunap Excavators, Sylvan Library, AD, etc. The idea being to hit more reliable mana and keeping the mana denial strat as per the usual. Thoughts?

Is it wise to run so many 3drops? Not talking about their power level, just, curve. Please keep us abreast of what your testing produces.

[maharis]

Is it wise to run so many 3drops? Not talking about their power level, just, curve. Please keep us abreast of what your testing produces.

12 turn 1 mana ramp cards probably mitigates that a bit.

Turn 1 plays: 12 (not counting stp)
Turn 2 plays: 15 (incl. GSZ for DRS/Hierarch as potential here if you are clogged on 3s and want to ramp after they spend their t1 bolting/stping your dork)

I would like Sylvan or Oath of Nissa in here to mitigate the potential to flood out late, but the strategy is pretty sound without Mom. He has at least 1 flex slot and could cut 1 mana dork for 2 library or 2 oath.

[T-101]

I'm not sold on playing more than 1 Excavator. He is much like many of the other bullets; extremely good in some situations and almost embarrassingly bad in others. I certainly want the first to Zenith for when Wasteland 5ever will stop them from playing the game, but I really don't want to draw a copy (or god forbid a second copy) against fast combo.

[TMagpie]

12 turn 1 mana ramp cards probably mitigates that a bit.

Turn 1 plays: 12 (not counting stp)
Turn 2 plays: 15 (incl. GSZ for DRS/Hierarch as potential here if you are clogged on 3s and want to ramp after they spend their t1 bolting/stping your dork)

I would like Sylvan or Oath of Nissa in here to mitigate the potential to flood out late, but the strategy is pretty sound without Mom. He has at least 1 flex slot and could cut 1 mana dork for 2 library or 2 oath.

It was not a complaint, just an observation, I would really like to know how this pans out.

EDIT: Missed a crucial word that reversed my intended statement.

[tescrin]

Is it wise to run so many 3drops? Not talking about their power level, just, curve. Please keep us abreast of what your testing produces.

It looks like it's 8 (minus GSZ stuff) which is fine when you have 12 ramps, even 8 ramps is quite fine. I've ran 8 3-drops in Junk with only DRS as the ramper I think.

I think that's the point of Maverick (and Dark Bant) is that you have enough dudes that you threaten a brutal 3-drop T2. That said, Crucible dude (like Courser) wants you to be a turn behind, so to speak, that way you get CA *right now*, so he's more of a 4-drop.

___
I'd run Rallier over of the THC, since he's.. better. A card now is better than a card later. And a card now is *way* better then never getting a card. I know THC can get some goofy locks on people but it seems christmas land or "win more."

I'd like to see *1 Loam* in the list. It's basically Thalia 1.0 #5 and it flat out wins some of the matches on its own. Secondly, on both of the above points, if you're used to having mom; this style I'm suggesting wants CA to make up for the lack of protection. So Rallier, Loam, Crucible Naga, Courser.

So to sum up:
-1 Excavator, +1 Courser (good in different situations, tutorable, similar dude)
-1 Knight, +1 Loam
-2 THC, +2 Rallier
-1 Scryb Ranger, +1 Library (Scryb is good with mom, but not that good when he's just eating land drops for vigilance IMO.)

I'm also not sure why there's no Safekeeper. I was advocating that Safekeeper > Mom because of psuedo-haste, psuedo untap ability, and that mixed with Crucible Snake he's that much better. Leaving him out in a GSZ deck that liked running mom just seems odd IMO.

[Skizz]

IMO - if you want to add Crucible Snake you have to include things which get benefit of it.

here only 2 (3) cards came to my mind which can be very useful/powerful.
number 1: Sylvan Safekeeper
number 2: Ghost Quarter
(Life from the Loam)
and durdle things like The Gitrog Monster. :tongue:

if i want to play this guy, than i want to use my lands in graveyard again and again.
we have to admit that deathrite shamans disrupt this plan (on our side or on opponents side)

to adjust my personal list i would go in future with 3 deathrite shaman and 2 noble hierarch (instead of 4/1)

---------------------------------------------------

when you want to play without Mother of Runes you have to add at least 1 or 2 copies of Sylvan Safekeeper.
it cant be good to run no protection in this deck!

more than 6 copies of manadorks cant be good either - you just want to draw Gas/Bombs on the following turns.

just my 2 cents :smile:

[Barook]

IMO - if you want to add Crucible Snake you have to include things which get benefit of it.

here only 2 (3) cards came to my mind which can be very useful/powerful.
number 1: Sylvan Safekeeper
number 2: Ghost Quarter
(Life from the Loam)
and durdle things like The Gitrog Monster. :tongue:

if i want to play this guy, than i want to use my lands in graveyard again and again.
we have to admit that deathrite shamans disrupt this plan (on our side or on opponents side)

to adjust my personal list i would go in future with 3 deathrite shaman and 2 noble hierarch (instead of 4/1)

---------------------------------------------------

when you want to play without Mother of Runes you have to add at least 1 or 2 copies of Sylvan Safekeeper.
it cant be good to run no protection in this deck!

more than 6 copies of manadorks cant be good either - you just want to draw Gas/Bombs on the following turns.

just my 2 cents :smile:
Azusa, Lost but Seeking is cheaper than Gitrog and enables extremely powerful plays with the Naga (tripple Wasteland/Horizon Canopy activations). She is pretty useless on her own, though. Probably not worth it unless you build a deck around the interaction.

[Skizz]

your right Barook :)
also we should not focus on Land Destruction too heavy (there are other decks that try to do this, Lands, Loam, Sylvan Plug etc.)

[razamarth]

Welcome back,

Fast note from work. :P

On last day I tested Punishing and Abzan version of Maverick.
In red we have better sideboard options:
Sudden Demise > Pyroclasm (delver and elves killer)
Pyroblast (Allstar)
Wear // Tear > Ancient Grudge (more flexible)

But Abzan is simple better in my opinion because playing punishing version we try to do that others decks do better.
Like for example Punishing Abzan and we need to sideboard the same way with Thoughtseize, Thalia and others hatebeards.
We win with fair decks without P. Fire Lock, we can crush them with creatures.

And new 3-drop:
Renegade Rallier - Me and 2 my friends say NO. Never zenith for this, only good in 3rd turn for another utility land or hatebeard. Rallier don't like opponents Deathrite Shaman.
Leovold - Don't work in Punishing Version (true 3-color deck, don't argue with zeniths toolbox) but we can use him in abzan version and he is good, treat him like another hatebeards, nothing else, I'm testing him.
Courser of Kruphix - Don't like him, false card advance, give information to opponents what we playing.
Ramunap Excavator - Utility Lands resurrection feel so good, but kinda slow, potentially wastelock by we can do this with KotR.
With table like this: Sylvan Safekeeper, KotR, Ramunap Excavator and Gitfrog Monster we win without doing crazy things with lands.
Thalia, Heretical Cathar - In abzan version is real pain in as for opponent, games like: 1st - DRS, 2nd Thalia 1.0 and wasteland, 3rd Thali 2.0 can kill almost all deck.
Sanctum Prelate - I'm move him to sideboard vs all kind combos and strange decks.
Council's Judgement - I can replace this with Blessed Alliance, we need fast, instants removal.
Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit - almost the same things

What maverick really need?
Maverick need better creatures, with different cmc other than 3, 3 is holy number for KotR.
Maverick need to care himself without Mother of Runes but actually is really hard in some MU.
Wizard gave Leovold for BUG, Sanctum Prelate and Recruiter of the Guard for DnT and 0 cards for Maverick with this power level.
For examples:
Ramunap Excavator - Feel good but doesn't win games. What I want? New creature with cost WG and 2/2 and same effect.
Eternal Witness - Staple from the past, but not now. What I want? New creature with cost WG and 2/2 and same effect.
Titania - Fun but 5/3? In new delver meta, no thank. I back sometimes to Sigarda.

[T-101]

@skizz @barook

I think the single Excavator provides most of the value there. It only takes 1 slot in the 75, and will usually be good on his own.

Azusa triple Wasteland and Gitrog shenanigans don't seem like this deck. Cool and powerful for sure, but I think they take us down a rabbit hole that Maverick doesn't want to go down.

My basic plan usually comes down one of these:

- Use Deathrite and Thalia to control and eventually finish off combo decks.

- Use Knight for Wastelands, and start smashing with Knight to beat fair decks.

- Use Knight for Dark Depths if that line becomes available, and would be faster than smashing with Knight.

Excavator helps in the Wasteland plan, and also gives you a re-buy on Dark Depths if you've decided to do that but something went wrong.

Azusa and Gitrog are pretty bad on their own, and don't really help unless something weird happens (like turn 2 Azusa, then double Waste them).

[smutko]

just 5-0'd with this hot mess:

https://i.imgur.com/ufFeYnB.png

played against dragon stompy (although i understand people aren't into that deck name anymore), 3x stone blade, and jund.

i would definitely put an excavator over one of the ralliers. for all the people saying "why would you play [3drop] when you can get a knight," i think i must play the deck pretty differently from you, but I'm very rarely searching up knight. i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell. saying that rallier is bad against DRS also strikes me as odd since knight is so bad against DRS as well.

[TMagpie]

just 5-0'd with this hot mess:

https://i.imgur.com/ufFeYnB.png

played against dragon stompy (although i understand people aren't into that deck name anymore), 3x stone blade, and jund.

i would definitely put an excavator over one of the ralliers. for all the people saying "why would you play [3drop] when you can get a knight," i think i must play the deck pretty differently from you, but I'm very rarely searching up knight. i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell. saying that rallier is bad against DRS also strikes me as odd since knight is so bad against DRS as well.

cards I zenith for the most often based on my memory of the experience:

Dryad Arbor
Knight of the Reliquary
Deathrite Shaman/Birds of Paradise
Hatebear of Some Sort
Scryb Ranger/Birds of Paradise

For the most part, I most often use Zenith to either fix mana, grab Knight, grab a hatebear, or grab evasion. I also often run 4 Stoneforge Mystic, so I rarely ask myself "Do I need to search for card advantage" when I already run 4 cantrip creatures and Horizon Canopy.

When Magus of the Crucible becomes legal I will definitely try running 1 of him + 1 Ghost Quarter over my current Dark Depths combo. Not that I think it's better--but I just want to know what its like.

[tescrin]

For the most part, I most often use Zenith to either fix mana, grab Knight, grab a hatebear, or grab evasion. I also often run 4 Stoneforge Mystic, so I rarely ask myself "Do I need to search for card advantage" when I already run 4 cantrip creatures and Horizon Canopy.
Something to note: Rallier is also tempo advantage; which is overlooked. The reason he's good is that he's a 3/2 Shardless Agent with better selection, not because he's a 3/2 Coiling Oracle.

[TMagpie]

Something to note: Rallier is also tempo advantage; which is overlooked. The reason he's good is that he's a 3/2 Shardless Agent with better selection, not because he's a 3/2 Coiling Oracle.

No disagreements from me on that analysis, I too own copies of Rallier despite not running him because I believe that to be true.

I was primarily answering his comment of: "i'm usually in search of some card advantage or a board presence that isn't immediately undone by a single removal spell."

I usually use Stoneforge Mystic and Mother of Runes to absorb removal spells early in the game so that my mid-game Knights are safer. But if you don't run 4 SFM 1 Bskull then you don't really get to run a 2cc 4/4 creature that draws you a card.

[Smarty744]

Has anyone tried unearth in this deck? It seems good, and unexpected. What about voice of resurgence? I feel like it would often be at least 2 3/3s for GW

[Stuart]

Went 3-1 last night on Maverick. Lost to Junk Nic Fit (I don't see how it's possible to beat that deck) and beat DnT, Aggroloam, and BW Eldrazi. Nothing too noteworthy to discuss, though I finally tried a one-of Abzan Beastmaster in my sideboard. The one time it came up was a GSZ vs DnT. Like many 3 drops, it wasn't really clear that it was better than just getting a Knight, and it got immediately Plowed anyway :cry:. Still, I'll keep dicking around with it for a bit.

[Echelon]

Has anyone tried unearth in this deck? It seems good, and unexpected. What about voice of resurgence? I feel like it would often be at least 2 3/3s for GW

What would those cards add to the deck that it can't do already and at what cost would it come, what would you have to cut to accomodate those cards?

[Megadeus]

Went 3-1 last night on Maverick. Lost to Junk Nic Fit (I don't see how it's possible to beat that deck) and beat DnT, Aggroloam, and BW Eldrazi. Nothing too noteworthy to discuss, though I finally tried a one-of Abzan Beastmaster in my sideboard. The one time it came up was a GSZ vs DnT. Like many 3 drops, it wasn't really clear that it was better than just getting a Knight, and it got immediately Plowed anyway :cry:. Still, I'll keep dicking around with it for a bit.

Explorer is tough. The best plan is to try to stunt their development early with Thalia plus waste, plow any explorer on sight if they give you a chance, and don't over extend into deed. Their deck is inconsistent so my plan is to basically prey on that inconsistent and hope they draw poorly. I wouldn't say it's unwinnable, but it's real hard. Sigarda is real good.

[pettdan]

@Stuart & Megadeus: Regarding the Nic Fit matchup, you may consider bringing in Leyline of the Void if it's in your sideboard. It stops Veteran Explorer frim triggering and prevents much of Cabal Therapy's usefulness. This allows the Thalia + Wasteland plan to strongly limit them, that is btw probably the most likely way to win g1 (like mentioned by Megadeus). I also think Pithing Needle for Pernicious Deed is good. Depths + Stage can win at the right moment. I would probably board in Discard over Mothers (certainly debatable) to get rid of their ramp or sweepers, trying to deal with their main strategies (ramp and sweep) as if it was a combo.. It seems like a very bad matchup. Gaddock Teeg stopping GSZ is also relevant, I think Nic Fit needs it more in general, and certainly once you have a favorable board position.

Ghost Quarter recursion with Ramunap Excavator is going to/could be a nice main deck answer to them.

[Megadeus]

@Stuart & Megadeus: Regarding the Nic Fit matchup, you may consider bringing in Leyline of the Void if it's in your sideboard. It stops Veteran Explorer frim triggering and prevents much of Cabal Therapy's usefulness. This allows the Thalia + Wasteland plan to strongly limit them, that is btw probably the most likely way to win g1 (like mentioned by Megadeus). I also think Pithing Needle for Pernicious Deed is good. Depths + Stage can win at the right moment. I would probably board in Discard over Mothers (certainly debatable) to get rid of their ramp or sweepers, trying to deal with their main strategies (ramp and sweep) as if it was a combo.. It seems like a very bad matchup. Gaddock Teeg stopping GSZ is also relevant, I think Nic Fit needs it more in general, and certainly once you have a favorable board position.

Ghost Quarter recursion with Ramunap Excavator is going to/could be a nice main deck answer to them.

Discard feels decent against ramp decks in general. You get to either take a key early ramp spell, or let them keep the ramp garbage and take the fatty. Always a decent choice. I think the likelihood of Ghost Quartering them out is extremely low unfortunately. I think you just try to play tight, let them lose to inconsistencies, and sometimes they're going to have it all and win

[pettdan]

Discard feels decent against ramp decks in general. You get to either take a key early ramp spell, or let them keep the ramp garbage and take the fatty. Always a decent choice. I think the likelihood of Ghost Quartering them out is extremely low unfortunately. I think you just try to play tight, let them lose to inconsistencies, and sometimes they're going to have it all and win

Yes, it may be too slow. I was thinking that if they stumble, they only have like six basics so after three turns of ghost quartering they are down to three remaining basics. Perhaps you've been able to Wasteland a dual or two.. It gives you inevitability in the matchup, but slow and only if you have Mother to protect Excavator (so I guess it doesn't really count as inevitability). Yes, perhaps too unlikely...

[TMagpie]

At first I was going to ask how the hell any version of Nic Fit is hard for Maverick. But then I remember that I run Dark Depths vs a deck without Wasteland and whose removal all say destroy.

I keep forgetting how many matches turn into near byes because I run that combo.

[pettdan]

At first I was going to ask how the hell any version of Nic Fit is hard for Maverick. But then I remember that I run Dark Depths vs a deck without Wasteland and whose removal all say destroy.

I keep forgetting how many matches turn into near byes because I run that combo.

The white versions of Nic Fit usually run some amount of StP's or Path to Exiles so you need Mother, which kind of plays into Deed/Deluge. But perhaps it still gives you decent chances (or even great as you say).

[TMagpie]

The white versions of Nic Fit usually run some amount of StP's or Path to Exiles so you need Mother, which kind of plays into Deed/Deluge. But perhaps it still gives you decent chances (or even great as you say).

Like I said, its kind of been close to byes for me. The main ways I lose is if cabal therapies rip apart my hand early on and they resolve things before I do.

More often than not even if they crack their veteran I just hardcast batterskull and most of their threats can't race it. As they start jumping through hoops to stop him, Knight or Mom gets through and the game is quickly made meaningless from there.

However, most of my lists run Revokers and prelates on the side, and often enough they can't really stop you turning off their sweepers with prelate on 3 or revoker on deed.

[Stuart]

Cheers guys. I'm pretty much fine with having a dogshit Nic Fit matchup, but FWIW I don't run:
- Leyline
- Needle (though I have in the past)
- Revoker
- Stage/Depths
- Prelate
- Batterskull
- Path to Exile
- more than 3 Basics

So whatever. I'm not gonna lose sleep over occasionally getting wrecked by Thalia, Rhino, Swagtusk & co.

[Megadeus]

Agreed. Nic Fit isn't prevalent enough to actually worry about, and I wager it never will be as long as brainstorm and ponder are in the format

[pettdan]

Cheers guys. I'm pretty much fine with having a dogshit Nic Fit matchup, but FWIW I don't run:
- Leyline
- Needle (though I have in the past)
- Revoker
- Stage/Depths
- Prelate
- Batterskull
- Path to Exile
- more than 3 Basics

So whatever. I'm not gonna lose sleep over occasionally getting wrecked by Thalia, Rhino, Swagtusk & co.

It appears we just desperataly wanted to discuss something. And I recently had a friend playing Nic Fit being surprised at how good Leyline was vs him, I thought I'd spread the word here too in case others are playing it and not using it in the matchup.

[TMagpie]

Cheers guys. I'm pretty much fine with having a dogshit Nic Fit matchup, but FWIW I don't run:
- Leyline
- Needle (though I have in the past)
- Revoker
- Stage/Depths
- Prelate
- Batterskull
- Path to Exile
- more than 3 Basics

So whatever. I'm not gonna lose sleep over occasionally getting wrecked by Thalia, Rhino, Swagtusk & co.

Yup, in that case you're definitely fucked by that tier 3 deck. Only solution is to treat it like every other tier 3 deck. :smile:

[dragonofthewest]

Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

[TMagpie]

Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

I'm assuming this is a spy talking to another spy, in code, using different forums to post their responses to each other, probably based on a mirrored site sequencer to allow for parallel posting.

Because short of that I have ZERO idea what this post means.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

He speaks German and owns an iPhone?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[TMagpie]

He speaks German and owns an iPhone?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

That part I get. I'm just trying to figure out why say that in a Maverick forum...

[TheoryCraft]

Hey all, unfortunately with the summer schedule being what it is I'm tight on time/availability for testing. Has anyone been able to playtest our Crucible friend, Ramunap Excavator? If so, thoughts? He feels like a nice 1-of to slot in and GSZ once a Wasteland is in the bin or a KotR is on the board.

[Amace]

Hey all, unfortunately with the summer schedule being what it is I'm tight on time/availability for testing. Has anyone been able to playtest our Crucible friend, Ramunap Excavator? If so, thoughts? He feels like a nice 1-of to slot in and GSZ once a Wasteland is in the bin or a KotR is on the board.

I've played with him about 20 games so far and he seems really very good. I played him as a 1-of and as a 2-of and i'm not sure yet what's the right number, probably 1. He's a quite nice target for equipments because you don't need to tap him for his ability.
He's prob best in grindy matchups, but to be honest most matchups except combo are kinda grindy nowadays. There are really nice things we can do with him, which really help us:

- Wasteland lock
- infinite chump blockers with Dryad Arbor
- carddraw with Horizon Canopy
- replaying fetches to thin out deck from lands while expanding mana base
- nice fodder provider for Sylvan Safekeeper
- If you get him down, wastelands of you enemy basically seem hilarious if you can protect your Excavator
- probably nice with Ghostquarter in the sb, but i didnt try that yet and it didn't feel necessary


Basically i already don't want to miss excavator anymore, he's a house of a card.

Best regards,
Amace

[calcymon]

probably trying it 2x

61 cards with 1x quarter (23 lands)

some decks play 1-2 basics, locking them main deck is so good, need to try it

[Megadeus]

The one thing I'd like is to add a bit more removal or ways to deal with deathrite if I'm going to play him.

[NegatorITA]

what's the people opinions on the list with Aether vial?
I see they are scarce, yet there may be some powerful interaction with vial+rallier or istant speed dudes

reference list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23908&iddeck=186881

have there been updated discussion about going the vial route vs the zenith one? I see the zenith one is the most used set up, althrough I can't say I've seen a lot of Maverik around lately, I though after miracle was gone I'd see a surge of them, I've always been interested in the deck but never really get into it,
is it just still not competitive enough or is it more likely just people not trying out new/old/different things?

Thanks :D

[TheoryCraft]

what's the people opinions on the list with Aether vial?
I see they are scarce, yet there may be some powerful interaction with vial+rallier or istant speed dudes

reference list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23908&iddeck=186881

have there been updated discussion about going the vial route vs the zenith one? I see the zenith one is the most used set up, althrough I can't say I've seen a lot of Maverik around lately, I though after miracle was gone I'd see a surge of them, I've always been interested in the deck but never really get into it,
is it just still not competitive enough or is it more likely just people not trying out new/old/different things?

Thanks :D
I personally don't like the concept of Vial because unlike DNT, this deck doesn't run a lot of ETB ability cards. I mean I suppose you somewhat get around that with EOT-into-my-turn Vial activations, but you don't get the oomph of cards like Flickerwisp, Recruiter of the Guard, Revoker, etc. that do significant ETB work. GSZ turns us into a toolbox deck, which is at the heart of what makes Maverick. If you can make a solid Green & Taxes deck then go for it, but I think it's probably just better to go one route (GSZ-Maverick) or the other (Vial-DNT).

[NegatorITA]

I personally don't like the concept of Vial because unlike DNT, this deck doesn't run a lot of ETB ability cards. I mean I suppose you somewhat get around that with EOT-into-my-turn Vial activations, but you don't get the oomph of cards like Flickerwisp, Recruiter of the Guard, Revoker, etc. that do significant ETB work. GSZ turns us into a toolbox deck, which is at the heart of what makes Maverick. If you can make a solid Green & Taxes deck then go for it, but I think it's probably just better to go one route (GSZ-Maverick) or the other (Vial-DNT).

thanks this is very claryfing, and I was indeed trying to fit all the ETB cards in a maverick colored deck but it seems not to fit ahha

that said, what's a recent list of maverik looks like?
I've seen one with Lotus Cobra :O are these there for the Tireless Tracker clue tokens? :D looks interesting, albeit a bit odd :P

once Thalia 2.0 was released it was discussed to be a staple, but nowdays I've never seen it played, was her too soft?

[TheoryCraft]

thanks this is very claryfing, and I was indeed trying to fit all the ETB cards in a maverick colored deck but it seems not to fit ahha

that said, what's a recent list of maverik looks like?
I've seen one with Lotus Cobra :O are these there for the Tireless Tracker clue tokens? :D looks interesting, albeit a bit odd :P

once Thalia 2.0 was released it was discussed to be a staple, but nowdays I've never seen it played, was her too soft?

Not a problem! Glad I could offer my humble opinion. :)

I don't play Tireless Tracker or Lotus Cobra so I can't help you on that front. Lotus Cobra seems like a bad top-deck waiting to happen and Tireless Tracker, to me, seems to suffer from the "why would you GSZ for this over something else?" feeling. Who knows though, maybe people like it for Miracles or something.

I personally love Thalia 2.0 and find her indispensable as a 2-of, but that's just from my relatively limited play-testing. Her biggest weakness is being 3-cmc in a deck that already runs at least 4 or more 3-cmc spells (KotR, Renegade Rallier, etc.). However, if she hits the board she straight up wrecks Delver decks, and just a lot of decks in general. Playing Thalia 1.0 into Thalia 2.0 has in my experience been GG versus the vast majority of Legacy decks. I haven't done any big tournaments in a few years with Maverick, though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[TMagpie]

My biggest worry with the new snake is the DRS effect. IE, sometimes games are shitty because you need to remove lands from your graveyard and it hurt's your KotR. With DRS, often the drawback is "worth" the boon. The same give and take has to be made with cards like Gaea's Cradle and Dark Depths.

So the big question, for me, is this: are the times this snake is good enough to make up for when this snake is mediocre/bad?

[TheoryCraft]

My biggest worry with the new snake is the DRS effect. IE, sometimes games are shitty because you need to remove lands from your graveyard and it hurt's your KotR. With DRS, often the drawback is "worth" the boon. The same give and take has to be made with cards like Gaea's Cradle and Dark Depths.

So the big question, for me, is this: are the times this snake is good enough to make up for when this snake is mediocre/bad?
I think that is why you run it as a 1-of (at least that is what my initial testing will be). I don't think you necessarily want to see him in your opening hand on a regular or even semi-regular basis, but there will certainly be times where he may be an absolute bomb. Again, on a conceptual level you're typically only searching for him if you already have a Wasteland and/or KotR in play. I suppose if you're married to the DD/Thespian package he may be worth finding early as well since he can essentially threaten the combo every turn if they remove a piece. This is all hypothetical until mass testing occurs, of course. :)

[Warden]

probably trying it 2x

61 cards with 1x quarter (23 lands)

some decks play 1-2 basics, locking them main deck is so good, need to try it

I want to run a pure GW list with 1-2 crucible snake, 4 wastes, and 2+ Quarters. If you're all-in on snake being a major player, I think he fits into the Viciano OG Maverick shell better than a lot of cards. The shell would then look like: Noble/DRS, Mom, Thalia, 2-3 Wayfarer, KotR, 2 Snake, Scryb, safekeeper backed by fetches, wastes, canopy, cradle. Possibly add a GQ to that mix. Lines of play get silly when you waste/fetch/scryb, activate wayfarer for in response, and reuse stuff from the grave with snake.

I think the deck can be extremely impressive if you build the mana base to be 6+ wasteland effects and 8+ disposable lands. 14 of 22/23 lands "benefiting" from going into the grave make snake better. I don't think they warp the mana base at all given how Maverick usually assembles itself. If you don't like GQ idea, run a more aggressive DD/Stage option instead. The key is keeping stuff GW though (which I have mixed feelings about but hey).

[T-101]

My biggest worry with the new snake is the DRS effect. IE, sometimes games are shitty because you need to remove lands from your graveyard and it hurt's your KotR. With DRS, often the drawback is "worth" the boon. The same give and take has to be made with cards like Gaea's Cradle and Dark Depths.

So the big question, for me, is this: are the times this snake is good enough to make up for when this snake is mediocre/bad?

I think the answer will certainly be yes. Letting your first Wasteland threaten them being on no lands, rebuying Horizon Canopy when the need arises, rebuying Dark Depths combo, providing resiliency against opposing Wastelands... not to mention the good old fashioned value of just playing Fetchlands/Mox Diamond'd lands from your yard.

Maverick is a deck that can play cards that are of highly varying utility, especially when those cards are green creatures. Yes, sometimes Excavator will be a 2/10, but that's ok because sometimes it will be a 10/10 and we'll just tutor it up. Very much like Teeg in that way. Sometimes Teeg is a Grizzly Bear that turns off your own Green Suns, but sometimes he wins the game so we're happy to play it.

There's obvious anti-synergy between this and Deathrite, but that's ok. Deathrite is so insane that he's worth playing even when he steps on the toes of your other cards (Goyf, Knight, Lavamancer, etc.).

Edit: Even if you remain unconvinced, many Maverick players are going to start trying it this weekend. You can get one of these guaranteed when you draft this weekend, and it's going straight into the deck. I'm sure results will start pouring in, I'll post after I play it in a couple events.

[Pilhas]

Hey guys, I am fairly new to playing this deck since I am usually on 4C Loam and I decided to buy the few cards I needed to give this a spin.
Can anyone tell me if Renegade Rallier is a staple of the deck? I am currently running 2 and he seems great but I don't have enough time to put the reps in and understand if he is a must include or if there are better options!

[T-101]

Hey guys, I am fairly new to playing this deck since I am usually on 4C Loam and I decided to buy the few cards I needed to give this a spin.
Can anyone tell me if Renegade Rallier is a staple of the deck? I am currently running 2 and he seems great but I don't have enough time to put the reps in and understand if he is a must include or if there are better options!

Rallier is good, not a must have. He's great recovery to get back Teeg or Thalia after they get Massacred, but he looks awful when you're staring down an opposing Deathrite Shaman.

He sits in the "sometimes" pile alongside Tracker, Courser, and the second Qasali.

I always play the first Teeg, Qasali, and Scryb Ranger before any Ralliers.

[TMagpie]

I think the answer will certainly be yes. Letting your first Wasteland threaten them being on no lands, rebuying Horizon Canopy when the need arises, rebuying Dark Depths combo, providing resiliency against opposing Wastelands... not to mention the good old fashioned value of just playing Fetchlands/Mox Diamond'd lands from your yard.

Maverick is a deck that can play cards that are of highly varying utility, especially when those cards are green creatures. Yes, sometimes Excavator will be a 2/10, but that's ok because sometimes it will be a 10/10 and we'll just tutor it up. Very much like Teeg in that way. Sometimes Teeg is a Grizzly Bear that turns off your own Green Suns, but sometimes he wins the game so we're happy to play it.

There's obvious anti-synergy between this and Deathrite, but that's ok. Deathrite is so insane that he's worth playing even when he steps on the toes of your other cards (Goyf, Knight, Lavamancer, etc.).

Edit: Even if you remain unconvinced, many Maverick players are going to start trying it this weekend. You can get one of these guaranteed when you draft this weekend, and it's going straight into the deck. I'm sure results will start pouring in, I'll post after I play it in a couple events.

I think the card is the most busted thing we've gotten since Sanctum Prelate. I just have reservations on how *powerful* it is. Very few cards will I compare to Deathrite Shaman.

[tescrin]

I'll probably try him in Bant instead, but I think he might well make Exploration a much better card. Being able to do something like "Explore, Noble, go; Waste (for daze protection), Excavator, pop Waste, play/pop waste" is pretty absurd. That's GG on T2 of the same levels Lands can pull. I could also see Mox Diamond builds mixing him in; as you have a body so that if your Loam is just CA, instead it's CA that also punches people.

I go back and forth on his Power Level but I'm suspecting Vegeta is in the right on this one.

Even just doing the above play with fetchlands is 5 mana on T2. Going,

T1 Explore, Noble, go
T2 Fetch, Excavator, Fetch, SFM->BSK.

What is your opp going to do? Kill SFM as you untap with 6 mana? You also just gained 2 CA that turn and flooded the field with garbage.

EDIT: I get that you could do the above with Loam or Crucible, but being a win con is a big difference. One is useless against RIP/DRS a lot of the time, the other just says "lol I still beat 80% of legacy in combat and carry a sword." I think I'm actually gonna pick up copies 3 and 4.

[Claymore]

Problem with Exploration is that it would be mostly useless outside of having the Excavator on board. Might be better with the Two Green deck in Development (which hinges on Asuza), but I've had plenty of openings in other decks that blow a load with Exploration and Moxes then do jack shit for a few turns.

[tescrin]

Fair enough, though it also works quite well with Courser, and if you're running 4 GSZ, Ex, and Courser; you have quite a lot of chances to set up explosive T2 or T3's. Exploration speeding up the deck instead of (your choice of mana dork) as it was meant to be played is still doable. I'm not suggesting run Mox + Exploration + Noble + GSZ + DRS; I'm suggesting like Noble or DRS + Exploration + GSZ

[Warden]

The upside of snake > crucible is how you can zenith the dude out. You can't find crucible or Loam in the library like you can casting zenith on x=4. But at the same time being a thing with legs makes it more vulnerable than crucible. I really like the card conceptually. It's on par with Prelate and someone is going to do something stupid with it soon. I see it being a strong flex play in Maverick.

[Megadeus]

For $20 you can get a set of a card that is a creature version of a currently $70. I think its a good investment either way

[tescrin]

I think if going this route a 1x Crop makes sense. Adds +1 to your wasteland count and your GQ count. I think the GQ route is *much* more powerful with the Exploration though. Even a deck with 4-5 basics will be reduced to zero in two turns; especially if they already fetched some out seeing the waste-lock plan.

[Amace]

I really don't like to ovextend our plan too much on Excavator. As a 1 or MAYBE 2 of he is fine but any other cards open us up to gy hate too much and I don't think this is where we want to be.

Imo his strength is that he fits into kinda regular lists without changing too much.

[RPD]

One really cool interaction that I found today and wanted to share with you (even though the most experienced players probably know it already)
If you upkeep draw with canopy with a sylvan library in play, you can also put back on top the card drawn with canopy. It's like digging for 4 instead of 3 :)

One question, about top ends/mana sinks in traditional maverick, which do you guys think are the best ones? I want to fill 1-2 maindeck slots with those kind of cards and I'm not sure which one helps our bad matchups better.
Titania - In my experience, amazing vs all kinds of control. Usually wins the game the next turn. Additional tricks with karakas.
Tracker - Good on paper, but it has performed worse than I expected vs control and similar decks. I found it less resilient to removal overall
Leovold - I see some lists playing 1 leovold and zero blue sources, just as a GSZ target. It's nice, good vs punishing fire decks like lands. Is that MU favorable? Haven't played it yet
Rallier - Some lists also play 1 rallier, which looks awkward without vials or anything. If someone plays him, please explain why it's useful, it's not clear to me.
Courser - Older lists played one or two copies, I don't see it much nowadays. It's probably too low impact.

Last question, about disenchant effects. How many qasali/reclamation sage is the optimal one? Now that miracles doesn't play counterbalance multiple qasali are not as necessary, but I think that 2 copies are okay (one maindeck, one sideboard). Anyway, seems like most lists play 1 qasali maindeck and 1 rec sage sideboard, why is this? show and tell decks have moved away from omniscience and now play more sneak attack, where reclamation sage isn't nearly as useful.

[Rascalyote]

One really cool interaction that I found today and wanted to share with you (even though the most experienced players probably know it already)
If you upkeep draw with canopy with a sylvan library in play, you can also put back on top the card drawn with canopy. It's like digging for 4 instead of 3 :)


You can also use the same trick with multiple sylvan libraries if you pay life for the first one to dig deeper. Doesn't come up much as you tend to avoid drawing a 2nd library when you already have the first, but if you need it, it's there.

[Megadeus]

If you really crave a mana sick, maybe look towards more Scooze. He can just take over and dominate games, and after an opponent uses resources removing the first one they really get beat down when you green Sun for a second one. Good in mirror, untap with it and it turns off opposing deathirites, gives you more play and a complete lockout against the Reanimator and dredge games, and it's great against Goyfs as well as being a nice way to gain life against the delver and burn decks

[menloe]

One really cool interaction that I found today and wanted to share with you (even though the most experienced players probably know it already)
If you upkeep draw with canopy with a sylvan library in play, you can also put back on top the card drawn with canopy. It's like digging for 4 instead of 3 :)

One question, about top ends/mana sinks in traditional maverick, which do you guys think are the best ones? I want to fill 1-2 maindeck slots with those kind of cards and I'm not sure which one helps our bad matchups better.
Titania - In my experience, amazing vs all kinds of control. Usually wins the game the next turn. Additional tricks with karakas.
Tracker - Good on paper, but it has performed worse than I expected vs control and similar decks. I found it less resilient to removal overall
Leovold - I see some lists playing 1 leovold and zero blue sources, just as a GSZ target. It's nice, good vs punishing fire decks like lands. Is that MU favorable? Haven't played it yet
Rallier - Some lists also play 1 rallier, which looks awkward without vials or anything. If someone plays him, please explain why it's useful, it's not clear to me.
Courser - Older lists played one or two copies, I don't see it much nowadays. It's probably too low impact.

Last question, about disenchant effects. How many qasali/reclamation sage is the optimal one? Now that miracles doesn't play counterbalance multiple qasali are not as necessary, but I think that 2 copies are okay (one maindeck, one sideboard). Anyway, seems like most lists play 1 qasali maindeck and 1 rec sage sideboard, why is this? show and tell decks have moved away from omniscience and now play more sneak attack, where reclamation sage isn't nearly as useful.

Courser is still great with Sylvan Library. I run Courser if I run Library in the main, but either Tracker or THC if it is in the side. This decision, at least for me, always revolves around where the Library is in my list as Courser is unexciting outside of its synergy with Library. THC is generally a meta call if I expect to play at least one match against Elves because fuck all that, but I do love her and wish she felt essential in more match ups. I will probably play Tracker with one or two Excavators, the DD combo, and Volrath's Stronghold at my next local. This is probably dog shit, but IDGAF YOLO.

Running two Qasalis is fine and it doesn't matter overmuch how you split them between the main and side. The exalted trigger is not insignificant and it's not like Counterbalance is the only target in the format. A lot of people I respect run two or, as you suggest, one Qasali and one Rec Sage. That said, I only run one and have never felt bad about it, though the second is a perennial consideration. Running less than one is probably bad.

While not everything breaks down this way, answers to questions RE: the optimal card to play are heavily dependent on your meta, the other cards in your deck, and your preferences. It sounds like you really like Titania and that she's performed well for you. That should count for a lot.

Remember: The world is your oyster. You have about a thousand moves and each one of them is as good as gold.

[tescrin]

One question, about top ends/mana sinks in traditional maverick, which do you guys think are the best ones? I want to fill 1-2 maindeck slots with those kind of cards and I'm not sure which one helps our bad matchups better.
Titania - In my experience, amazing vs all kinds of control. Usually wins the game the next turn. Additional tricks with karakas.
Rallier - Some lists also play 1 rallier, which looks awkward without vials or anything. If someone plays him, please explain why it's useful, it's not clear to me.
Courser - Older lists played one or two copies, I don't see it much nowadays. It's probably too low impact.

Last question, about disenchant effects. How many qasali/reclamation sage is the optimal one? Now that miracles doesn't play counterbalance multiple qasali are not as necessary, but I think that 2 copies are okay (one maindeck, one sideboard). Anyway, seems like most lists play 1 qasali maindeck and 1 rec sage sideboard, why is this? show and tell decks have moved away from omniscience and now play more sneak attack, where reclamation sage isn't nearly as useful.

A) I haven't used her but she seems a house. Try it out?
B) He's good because he's CA and it's *now*. Like Snapcaster or similar, he gains you a card even if your opponent has removal right now. He's also tempo gain, land ramp, and potentially a double-wasteland. He's quite reasonable, though not quite a bomb.
C) He seems fine as a 1-of. He blocks all the non-beaters of legacy, and one or two beaters. He's mostly there as card filtering. I think if anyone takes my Exploration idea for a run, a 1-of of him here makes a lot of sense as you can burn through your bad topdecks very quickly. That said, I think Bob is generally better, since bob also wants to draw you lands (because of the low CMC) and Bob always gets your cards while he's alive, while courser does not.

D) I honestly think having 3 QPM, even in the main, is acceptable. Stacking Exalted triggers with Noble can get 5/5's as early as T3 (Noble, Noble + QPM)* and that's really where legacy tops out. It looks inconspicuous but every 3 triggers is a giant growth or a bolt to the face; which is substantial. The rec sage that people run is because it's CA, so it's more of a "blowout" card than a versatile one. Having all your eggs in QPM means revoker can screw you, or having all your eggs in Rec Sage means you have to wait to be reactive rather than proactive. IMO, run two, and a sage in the side (if you don't have decays.) He's mostly there to eat equipments so that you win the grind against SFM decks.

*EDIT: This isn't christmas land, this is just a regular "whoops I drew two nobles this game" hand. Punching for 4-5 off your two drop is as good as goyf and it's not grave reliant, which is a nice backup.

[TMagpie]

Also, recall that Scrb Ranger + Knight of the Reliquary is a very quick "mana sink" especially if you have some tricks in the land spread. Batterskull is also a powerful mana sink for lists that run 4x SFM, and just zenithing for more DRS is often a good "mana sink" as well.

[menloe]

I have a couple of Sanctum Prelates and am looking for an opportunity to jam them. So far, however, I like Ethersworn Canonist better in every match up where I feel like I might use the Prelates. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

[TMagpie]

I have a couple of Sanctum Prelates and am looking for an opportunity to jam them. So far, however, I like Ethersworn Canonist better in every match up where I feel like I might use the Prelates. Am I looking at this the wrong way?

I find Prelates to be my favorites vs Lands (on 2), Miracles (On 1), Show and Tell (on 3), and Burn (on 2)

None of those matchups would I want Canonist instead.

[NegatorITA]

guys, what about punishing maverik?
Is it fallen out of flavour but shouldn't it be quite strong right now?
where can I check an updated list if anyone is still testing it out?

[Skizz]

guys, what about punishing maverik?
Is it fallen out of flavour but shouldn't it be quite strong right now?
where can I check an updated list if anyone is still testing it out?

Hey NegatorITA

i have played pfire maverick the last 2 months and it was indeed very strong
check out my latest list:

PFire (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=1015734&viewfull=1#post1015734)

list was ok back then, i dunno what i would change here, because i switched back to GWb with Crucible Snake..

[NegatorITA]

Hey NegatorITA

i have played pfire maverick the last 2 months and it was indeed very strong
check out my latest list:

PFire (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=1015734&viewfull=1#post1015734)

list was ok back then, i dunno what i would change here, because i switched back to GWb with Crucible Snake..

interesting that you switched back with Crucible snake, which is indeed, a card I'd like to hear about, looks very powerful.
Why the change? I mean, what make you think going crucible-snake will be better than punishing fire?

[apple713]

I'll probably try him in Bant instead, but I think he might well make Exploration a much better card. Being able to do something like "Explore, Noble, go; Waste (for daze protection), Excavator, pop Waste, play/pop waste" is pretty absurd. That's GG on T2 of the same levels Lands can pull. I could also see Mox Diamond builds mixing him in; as you have a body so that if your Loam is just CA, instead it's CA that also punches people.

I go back and forth on his Power Level but I'm suspecting Vegeta is in the right on this one.

Even just doing the above play with fetchlands is 5 mana on T2. Going,

T1 Explore, Noble, go
T2 Fetch, Excavator, Fetch, SFM->BSK.

What is your opp going to do? Kill SFM as you untap with 6 mana? You also just gained 2 CA that turn and flooded the field with garbage.


The opponent doesnt have to do anything, The likely hood of you getting those 5-6 cards in opening is extreamly unliky and it does nothing to stop combo decks. Im all for looking at the best case scenario but within reason. You wouldnt run 4 exploration, and without that consistency its unlikely you'll see it much. playing lands from grave is great but without extra land drops is not AMAZING.

Also, you may untap with that much mana, but then have nothing to cast with it....

[Cpt-Qc]

guys, what about punishing maverik?
Is it fallen out of flavour but shouldn't it be quite strong right now?
where can I check an updated list if anyone is still testing it out?

IMO punishing maverick is just a worse version of loam decks. It's like halfway there but connot execute either deck's strategy that well. Im not saying its bad but Id rather devote to a strategy than play something like this.

[CptHaddock]

IMO punishing maverick is just a worse version of loam decks. It's like halfway there but connot execute either deck's strategy that well. Im not saying its bad but Id rather devote to a strategy than play something like this.

You can say the same exact thing about maverick in general.

[Cpt-Qc]

You can say the same exact thing about maverick in general.

I get what you're saying but there are no other KoTr decks beside maverick and loam so I disagree.

[ricste88]

Hi Everybody.

I tested a lot after sensei's ban. And I find out the following list:

4x Mother of Runes
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Noble Hierarch
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliqary
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Thargtusk
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Renegade Rallier

Non-land, Non-creature:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Collective Brutality

Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Windswepth Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
3x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Gaea’s Cradle
1x Cavern Of Souls

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
2x Choke
3x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Toxic Deludge
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Blessed Alliance

I will talk about choices beyond the normal shell:

Thargtusk: he is one of our 3 BIG finisher. I thought his mana cost could be a problem, but with 22 lands, 1 Dryad and 5 mana dork We can cast it easily. is a Great card vs BUG, Jund (all the midrange deck), burn and control deck (like topless miracle). We can side it out vs grixis and all the other tempo deck, and obv Combo and lands.

Chameleon Colossus: Simply AMAZING. In the current meta is the right choice, for long time I was looking for a good Cc4 silver bullet that can be fethced with GSZ and I finally found it,specially in this meta full of Fatal Push, Decay, Gurmag Angler, Shaman, Strix and Leovold. He is protected from random pulse/Dismember too, against BUG is really strong and vs grixis as well (we have cavern to make it uncounterable and post sideboard, he is even more powerful, because our opponent Non-black threats are blowed up from our zealous/deludge). With Cradle it becomes enormous, try it and you will never go back!

Collective Brutality, I was looking for a 7th spot removal, and I realized that brutality is really great in this deck. It kills Delver, Shaman, any burn, elves D&T creatures (and it gives you 2 life), Confidant, strix, Pyromancer and many other annoying stuff. We can easily activate escalation by discarding any Thalia in excess, Gaddock in usefless MU (basically Any mother other than Comb/miracle) and Lands in excess. AND is the only removal useful against Combo deck, because it becomes a discard effect ;) post sb it is the fourth discard effect against combo deck and control deck (we board in 3x Seize), really powerful, we can even think to move up to 2 MD

Renegade Rallier: I love it, better than the new crucible with leg, it's a surprise effect, it allw you to do 2/3 wasteland (if u have even an active Knight) in a turnn, u don't need a crucible, once that u wasteland your opponent 3 time in a turn the game is won anyway, plus it allow you to make a great board advantage, by "reanimate" your little beast or a Jitte/Library, insane.

Big Exluded:

Tireless Tracker. Now that Miracle i no more a tier 1, I think that this card is less powerful, specially in a meta full of tempo deck, a 3/2 Cc 3 that can be countered easily by daze and that can be kiled by Bolt, forked bolt and any other reomval in the format. Is too slow does not impact the game the turn that you drop it down

sylvan safekeepr: same story of Tracker, without too many miracles around, we don't need to lock our opponents with Keeper-Gaddock. Mother of runes gained value again, and i moved up to 4 of them. The foourth mom replaced Sylvan Safekeeper.

Thalia Heretic Catar:
I love this card, really, but I can't find any space MD to insert her. Is good against Elves and Eldrazi (not played anymore) and ok vs Sneak and Show, but is not so impacting against other deck, she gives you time but is not resolutive.

Sanctum Prelate: we already have a good MU in combo pre and post sideboard, and I don't want another drop at 3, specially with WW in the mana cost. I think is just a cool card that people want to insert because is new, I tested it and I dropped after a month.

Stoneforge Mystic: I simply hate, I'm playing Maverick since the ban of survival, and are more or less 3 years that I'm not running SFM in the 75 and I think is the best choice that I have ever had.

Horizon Canopy: Yes I know, it could sound like a Blasphemy, but now that Daze is back again I prefer to run MD Caver of souls in order to make our humans uncounterable

Sideboard choices:

well is a pretty standard sideboard, the only card that I'm not sure about is Garruk Relentless. Maybe we don't need it, I'm still testing it, bringing it in vs midrange, Delver.deck and Lands
Blessed Alliance: really good vs burn, Lands (bye bye Marit Lage), and TNN decks. Anyway I bring it in vs any deck with creatures, is unexpected and u can do funny combat tricks with the "untap" effect as well (MOR and KOTR anymore?)

What do you guys think about?

To follow the topic, I tested a lot Punishin Maverick, I think is just a less powerful version of the other versions. Is stronger vs Jace.deck but this version loose ppower vs combo deck, the anti-sinergy between Thalia and P.fire is just an heartbreak! U gain good card like Huntmaster of the fells, but I think that if you want to play a midrange deck with red you should play Jund, it has more sinergy and broken cards like Broodbraid elf!

[timmyod17]

Interesting take. But if I wanted a 4cc beater, I'd go with Thrun over the Chameleon Colossus.

While the colossus is an interesting idea, Thrun doesn't need Cavern to be uncounterable and is immune to all removal (with the exceptions of Council's Judgment, Damnation, Terminus, Deluge, and often Liliana's -2, all of which also kill the colossus anyway). Immunity to Jace's -1 and the regeneration ability is also nice. Synergy with our own Karakas is an occasional perk.

Love the Thragtusk, though. Brings back fond memories of my favorite standard format :tongue: