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tescrin
07-24-2017, 08:26 PM
The opponent doesnt have to do anything, The likely hood of you getting those 5-6 cards in opening is extreamly unliky and it does nothing to stop combo decks. Im all for looking at the best case scenario but within reason. You wouldnt run 4 exploration, and without that consistency its unlikely you'll see it much. playing lands from grave is great but without extra land drops is not AMAZING.

Also, you may untap with that much mana, but then have nothing to cast with it....
...
.....
.......

Alright, I'll troll myself.

Without writing a bunch of paragraphs.. It's a 3 card combo, 1 of which can be GSZ or Noble, one of which can be GSZ or Excavator or Courser. That's not a very specific hand. You don't count *regular lands* in that scenario, because that's a requirement for all hands. Mav gets double ramp hands all the time.

I'm not sure why you're using the combo argument in a *maverick* thread about a 1-2of; but there's no reason you couldn't run 4 Exploration if you ran 1-2 REx and 1-2 Courser, given they are both pretty wild with it.

Also, the scenario given was an *alternative* scenario to the nice waste-out scenario. Any of the following are very good T2/T3 plays with the 3 card combo mentioned:
* wasteland
* SFM or natural Equip
* GSZ or natural

In the aforementioned 3 card combo, something that I'm not suggesting will happen all the time [i][but could be made to happen at a 25% rate or something in addition to other nice openings Mav can have], you get +2 CA; which is pretty darn good; and not only is it +2 CA, but either one results in being ahead your mana by ~2 as well (double waste or double fetch) which is pretty fancy.


I think it'd be better in a deck designed to do it, but it could be that a future evolution of maverick is that deck.

ET1
07-24-2017, 09:10 PM
...
.....
.......

Alright, I'll troll myself.

Without writing a bunch of paragraphs.. It's a 3 card combo, 1 of which can be GSZ or Noble, one of which can be GSZ or Excavator or Courser. That's not a very specific hand. You don't count *regular lands* in that scenario, because that's a requirement for all hands. Mav gets double ramp hands all the time.

I'm not sure why you're using the combo argument in a *maverick* thread about a 1-2of; but there's no reason you couldn't run 4 Exploration if you ran 1-2 REx and 1-2 Courser, given they are both pretty wild with it.

Also, the scenario given was an *alternative* scenario to the nice waste-out scenario. Any of the following are very good T2/T3 plays with the 3 card combo mentioned:
* wasteland
* SFM or natural Equip
* GSZ or natural

In the aforementioned 3 card combo, something that I'm not suggesting will happen all the time [i][but could be made to happen at a 25% rate or something in addition to other nice openings Mav can have], you get +2 CA; which is pretty darn good; and not only is it +2 CA, but either one results in being ahead your mana by ~2 as well (double waste or double fetch) which is pretty fancy.


I think it'd be better in a deck designed to do it, but it could be that a future evolution of maverick is that deck.

Just out of curiosity, do you have experience playing maverick?

ricste88
07-25-2017, 02:44 AM
Interesting take. But if I wanted a 4cc beater, I'd go with Thrun over the Chameleon Colossus.

While the colossus is an interesting idea, Thrun doesn't need Cavern to be uncounterable and is immune to all removal (with the exceptions of Council's Judgment, Damnation, Terminus, Deluge, and often Liliana's -2, all of which also kill the colossus anyway). Immunity to Jace's -1 and the regeneration ability is also nice. Synergy with our own Karakas is an occasional perk.

Love the Thragtusk, though. Brings back fond memories of my favorite standard format :tongue:

I agree with you, but the point is that I don't run any swords in my list (fire/ice, light shadow). Thrun without any sword on it is nothing more than a wall. He doesn't have any protection from colors and is just a 4/4, when he block he doesn't kill any gotf, Smasher, Gurmag. Is true that he can regenerate but he doen't help you to finish the game. Colossus can Block all this creaturw and can be pumped, in order to kill them. Plus in a meta where the dominant color is black he often becomes a winning condiction, both alone and specially alongside a MoR. The following turn after u cast it is an 8/8, if u have a bounch of creatures and a cradle, it might become a 16/16 and it's game. Against control deck Thrun is obv better than colossus, but he can resolves so many situations and MU where thrun would be totally useless (or just a wall that helps you to survive a couple of turns, waiting for a resolutive topdeck).

Talking about the new crucible with leg. I tried it and I find out that with all those Shamans around i not so powerful as it seems. First of all: with a shaman in play opponents start to remove the lands that do something from your GY (wasteland, canopy, a wasted cradle ecc ecc). Second point: do we really need another ramp effect? I mever had problems with lands with this shell. I run 22 lands (1 cradle) plus 5 dorks, Dryad Arbor and 4 GSZ. Rallier can be used to ramp already and Scryb and Knight hel us with the ramp plan a lot. I feel like we are just adding a 2/3 that does what we can perfectly do without him already. By having a free slot we can add a Big creature that hel us to finish the game faster or a planeswalker like Elspeth that gives flying to our fatties.

CptHaddock
07-25-2017, 08:15 AM
I get what you're saying but there are no other KoTr decks beside maverick and loam so I disagree.

And rock decks? I'm not really getting what you are trying to say. Because there are no other knight decks, maverick can't be worse than 4c Loam? I'm sure the spread of matchups is roughly the same for both decks across the board but in the end with 4c loam you can fall back on the Fire or Loam engines.

TMagpie
07-25-2017, 08:51 AM
And rock decks? I'm not really getting what you are trying to say. Because there are no other knight decks, maverick can't be worse than 4c Loam? I'm sure the spread of matchups is roughly the same for both decks across the board but in the end with 4c loam you can fall back on the Fire or Loam engines.

A.) The two decks are very different and saying they are similar just because both run Knight of the Reliquary is like saying that Maverick is like elves just because we run Deathrite and Greensuns.

B.) Let's try and focus on how to improve decks instead of just talking about how weak/strong we think Maverick is.

C.) I personally see Aggro Loam as usually just a bad lands player who wanted more creatures to attack with more than a Maverick player who decided 36 lands, Mox diamond, and less threats and less tutor effects and more susceptible to grave hate with less ability to protect the few threats it does have. But to each their own.

Skizz
07-25-2017, 09:17 AM
interesting that you switched back with Crucible snake, which is indeed, a card I'd like to hear about, looks very powerful.
Why the change? I mean, what make you think going crucible-snake will be better than punishing fire?

i think the reason why i switched back to GWB is because of the better sideboard cards in black
and because of Thalia, GoT in MB - its just a good feeling when you can tax the opponent. (especially all sorts of combo decks)

with punishing fire it is easier to beat most fair decks thats fact.
but when it comes down beating unfair decks like elves for example, against a good player like Julian Knab -
than it doesnt make a difference. a few weeks ago we made like 20 games and he beat me approx 16/4
even if i had the engine running..

now im back to GWB and test 2 Ramunap Excavators, a Courser of Kruphix and a singelton Ghost Quarter.
its fine but every matchup against an active deathrite shaman hes just an 2/3 beater.
at the moment i play 2 noble hierarch and 3 Shamans - but eventually i will test to play 3 noble / 2 shaman and a singelton phyrexian revoker to stop opponents shamans...

will see in future testing.

Magnaguard100
07-25-2017, 09:25 AM
This is the list im currently running and i have had a decent amount of sucess. Wanted to know everyones opinion since im going to a large tournament this weekend and wanted some help fine tuning it.

4x mother of runes
4x deathrite shaman
1x birds of paradise
1x qasali pridemage
1x scavenging ooze
1x scryb ranger
1x gaddoc teeg
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x stoneforge mystic
4x knight of the reliquary
1x renegade rallier
1x ramunap excavator
2x thalia, heretic cathar

4x Green suns zenith
4x swords to plowshares
1x sylvan library
1x umezawas jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x batterskull

4x windswept heath
3x wooded foothills
1x plains
1x forest
2x bayou
2x savannah
4x wasteland
1x ghost quarter
1x maze of ith
1x cavern of souls
1x dryad arbor
1x karakas

Sideboard

2x ethersworn canonist
2x thoughtsieze
2x zealous persecution
2x surgical extration
1x farie maccabre
1x pithing needle
1x enginered plague
1x garruk relentless
1x armageddon
1x disenchant
1x abrupt decay

Overall i really like the deck. Being really toolboxy helps, and excavator wasteland/ghost quarter can punish decks that try to fetch basics against wasteland. Im going to be adding a scrubland to the list and potentially a horizon canopy. Wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions on what to add/ change before this weekend. Any help would be appreciated

Skizz
07-25-2017, 09:39 AM
@Magnaguard100

nice list!

if you own a gaeas cradle than i would swap this for Maze of Ith.

i would swap Batterskull to the sideboard (i find it too clunky and i hate it when grixis/jund plays Kolaghans Command against me)

instead of disenchant i would go with either Reclamation sage or Krosan Grip.

i dont like the armageddon and would add Chokes here

:smile:

Magnaguard100
07-25-2017, 10:57 AM
@Magnaguard100

nice list!

if you own a gaeas cradle than i would swap this for Maze of Ith.

i would swap Batterskull to the sideboard (i find it too clunky and i hate it when grixis/jund plays Kolaghans Command against me)

instead of disenchant i would go with either Reclamation sage or Krosan Grip.

i dont like the armageddon and would add Chokes here

:smile:

Unfortunatly i dont own a cradle, but thats a long term pickup i want to do.

What would you replace batterskull with? Another creature or a spell/land?

Main reason i like disenchant is because its 2 mana so its 1 turn faster vs chalice decks. I like rec sage, but im always afraid of humility, and i have no outs to that, but krosan grip is a possibility

I used to run choke, but against all the miracles lists they would disenchant it and i wouldnt have any value. Armageddon has won me a bunch of games against control lists where i develop a board and then geddon making my knight huge/ garruk making tokens took over thr game, but i understand chokes power.

If i were to put the batterskull in the board, what would i cut in the board for it?

TMagpie
07-25-2017, 02:43 PM
Unfortunatly i dont own a cradle, but thats a long term pickup i want to do.

What would you replace batterskull with? Another creature or a spell/land?

Main reason i like disenchant is because its 2 mana so its 1 turn faster vs chalice decks. I like rec sage, but im always afraid of humility, and i have no outs to that, but krosan grip is a possibility

I used to run choke, but against all the miracles lists they would disenchant it and i wouldnt have any value. Armageddon has won me a bunch of games against control lists where i develop a board and then geddon making my knight huge/ garruk making tokens took over thr game, but i understand chokes power.

If i were to put the batterskull in the board, what would i cut in the board for it?

Without Top in the format, I'm a bigger fan of Armageddon now than before. Too often I've lost or have seen maverick players lose when casting Armageddon only for Miracles to draw with top, cast terminus, then cast snapcaster mage or vendillion clique (that only needs 3-4 mana fyi), and then die to marsh viper beats with no lands in play.

Now that things have to be more fair I'm a bigger fan of the Armageddon plan.

Captain Hammer
07-25-2017, 04:30 PM
Ramunap excavator is amazing. I think it's an auto include in any deck playing green and 4 wasteland/1 ghost quarter. Being able to fetch it up with GSZ may have brought Maverick to a higher tier.

Magnaguard100
07-25-2017, 07:15 PM
Ramunap excavator is amazing. I think it's an auto include in any deck playing green and 4 wasteland/1 ghost quarter. Being able to fetch it up with GSZ may have brought Maverick to a higher tier.

So overall you feel that having qhost quarter in the deck is really good. Thats good to know. I played the mirror last week, and he agressivly fetched his basics so i blew them up and then wasted him out with excavator/rallier

My main thing is do we still want cavern/maze? Cavern was great during the counterbalance era but now seems a little less relavent, but its still good vs chalice, and other decks being able to force though a mom or thalia vs delver decks. Maze is sort of the same way. Its great at stopping mariat lage, grisslebrand, and the like, but there are times when having it is not relvent/ bad since it doesnt produce mana, and haing 5 colorless sourcess+cavern which always cant tap for what you want+maze can sometimes feel like im choked on colors.

Skizz
07-26-2017, 03:23 AM
i have played maze the last time about 5 years ago - and dont miss it in maverick.
i used cavern as a singelton against miracles back then and dont find the need anymore
it can be great sometimes for sure but i found the problem is when you have to name
a creature type other than human than its bad later when you can only produce colorless mana.

my manabase looks like this at the moment and i find it very solid. (nothing special)

2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

i must say that i always play 2 SFM and only 1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice lately
and batterkull will not help me that much in my matchups i face these days. im fine without it.

the reason i always play 2 qasali pridemage is because its great against any kind of challice of the void and equipment etc.

against which decks would you bring in armageddon? 4 mana cost is a lot and than you have to find the perfect timing.
i think you will cast chokes more often than armageddon (and come on we play 4 wasteland and maybe a ghost quarter - that should be enough for the most decks)

thats just my opinion and expierence i made the last years. :smile:

Magnaguard100
07-26-2017, 06:59 AM
i have played maze the last time about 5 years ago - and dont miss it in maverick.
i used cavern as a singelton against miracles back then and dont find the need anymore
it can be great sometimes for sure but i found the problem is when you have to name
a creature type other than human than its bad later when you can only produce colorless mana.

my manabase looks like this at the moment and i find it very solid. (nothing special)

2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

i must say that i always play 2 SFM and only 1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice lately
and batterkull will not help me that much in my matchups i face these days. im fine without it.

the reason i always play 2 qasali pridemage is because its great against any kind of challice of the void and equipment etc.

against which decks would you bring in armageddon? 4 mana cost is a lot and than you have to find the perfect timing.
i think you will cast chokes more often than armageddon (and come on we play 4 wasteland and maybe a ghost quarter - that should be enough for the most decks)

thats just my opinion and expierence i made the last years. :smile:

Ok. So in that case il cut the maze and cavern for a scrubland and horizon canopy, and cut batterskull for another pridemage. Is dryad arbor part of that mana base or are you including it in your creature spot?

Skizz
07-26-2017, 07:15 AM
Ok. So in that case il cut the maze and cavern for a scrubland and horizon canopy, and cut batterskull for another pridemage. Is dryad arbor part of that mana base or are you including it in your creature spot?
i would recommend that you try this manabase
i have count dryad arbor as a creature

NegatorITA
07-26-2017, 09:09 AM
i would recommend that you try this manabase
i have count dryad arbor as a creature


could you post your whole deck list at this point?

Skizz
07-26-2017, 09:54 AM
could you post your whole deck list at this point?
sure, but this is still in testing phase

2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

1 dryad arbor
3 deathrite shaman
2 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
4 thalia, got
2 qasali pridemage
2 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 scrybranger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 ramunap excavator
1 courser of kruphix

4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

--> courser is somehow overperforming these days and i dont miss sylvan library....

sideboard:
3 thoughtseize
2 ethersworn canonist
1 sanctum prelate
2 zealous persecution
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 reclamation sage
2 surgical exctraction
2 choke

Magnaguard100
07-26-2017, 12:13 PM
sure, but this is still in testing phase

2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

1 dryad arbor
3 deathrite shaman
2 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
4 thalia, got
2 qasali pridemage
2 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 scrybranger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 ramunap excavator
1 courser of kruphix

4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

--> courser is somehow overperforming these days and i dont miss sylvan library....

sideboard:
3 thoughtseize
2 ethersworn canonist
1 sanctum prelate
2 zealous persecution
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 reclamation sage
2 surgical exctraction
2 choke

Really? I love library. Every single time ive had it in play its been phenomenal. Are you running 2 excavators because of the sylvan safekeeper? Overall do you think rec sage is better than grip/disenchant? I have a overwhelming fear of humility hahaha

TheoryCraft
07-26-2017, 03:12 PM
sure, but this is still in testing phase

2 forrest
1 plains
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
7 fetch lands
1 karakas
1 gaeas cradle
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter

1 dryad arbor
3 deathrite shaman
2 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
1 sylvan safekeeper
4 thalia, got
2 qasali pridemage
2 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 scrybranger
4 knight of the reliquary
2 ramunap excavator
1 courser of kruphix

4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

--> courser is somehow overperforming these days and i dont miss sylvan library....

sideboard:
3 thoughtseize
2 ethersworn canonist
1 sanctum prelate
2 zealous persecution
1 toxic deluge
1 abrupt decay
1 reclamation sage
2 surgical exctraction
2 choke
My list is near-identical, with only the following changes: I run 2 Bayou, for which you run 1 and then 1 Ghost Quarter (added); you run a 2nd Qasali and a Courser, for which I run a 4th DRS and 4th Mother of Runes; I run 1-of Sylvan Library, but no Safekeeper; and I run a Thalia, HC in place of a 2nd Excavator. I am extremely curious to see how Maverick lists are faring with the 4:1 package of Wasteland: Ghost Quarter these days. Is the mana base still stable? The rest of it looks solid.

TMagpie
07-26-2017, 05:41 PM
Really? I love library. Every single time ive had it in play its been phenomenal. Are you running 2 excavators because of the sylvan safekeeper? Overall do you think rec sage is better than grip/disenchant? I have a overwhelming fear of humility hahaha

Fearing humility is non-sense. Not because Humility isn't good vs Maverick, but because the deck humility is in should be what you're fighting against and not specific cards.

What Humility decks are you afraid of, and how often is Humility what kills you as opposed to all the other cards being cast before Humility?

Just for context, I played against a Nic-Fit deck recently that used Academy Rector to land a turn 5 Overwhelming Splendor on me. He died to my army of 1/1 beaters.

Why?

Because Humility does not kill creatures, it just weakens them. Unless the opposing deck is also doing SOMETHING ELSE, then oftentimes Humility just gives them 2-3 turns more before dying. Not even that if you have equipment.

Schryver
07-27-2017, 02:53 AM
Tried this list last night (except the sideboard bog was something else). Cut a mom cause I don't know what else to get rid of (like 2 qasali for my meta). I really want to add a fatal push or something because not being able to kill a turn 1 deathrite shaman feels awful and ruins the mana denial plan. Should I just go with another abrupt decay? Would need to add another Bayou probably. I also might just buy a Cradle finally. Tempted to try a Courser because I don't like losing to burn and he would help somewhat.

Creatures (26)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier
Spells (9)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (22)
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage

Skizz
07-27-2017, 03:52 AM
My list is near-identical, with only the following changes: I run 2 Bayou, for which you run 1 and then 1 Ghost Quarter (added); you run a 2nd Qasali and a Courser, for which I run a 4th DRS and 4th Mother of Runes; I run 1-of Sylvan Library, but no Safekeeper; and I run a Thalia, HC in place of a 2nd Excavator. I am extremely curious to see how Maverick lists are faring with the 4:1 package of Wasteland: Ghost Quarter these days. Is the mana base still stable? The rest of it looks solid.

the manabase is very stable in my configuration when going with 4 Wasteland/1 Ghost Quarter.
i always fetch for basics and only search my black sources when needed.

i would always play 4 mothers - but when running 2 Excavators i just have to play a Safekeeper.

courser is in the spot for library at the moment.

i think you have to include at least 2 copys of every non-green hatebear to get a better chance to find it - 2 thalia HC are better than 1 random.

i run Rec Sage because in my meta there are omni sneak players, food chain and a lot of grixis (baleful strix) and therefore its probably better than just 1for1
(nobody plays humility :laugh: )

Magnaguard100
07-27-2017, 11:52 PM
Whats the main reason why people dont run maze? Doesnt it help out vs rieanimator, mirran crusader, delver, things of that naturem the reason im asking is i want to run horizon canopy or maze but not sure which

Cpt-Qc
07-28-2017, 01:15 AM
Whats the main reason why people dont run maze? Doesnt it help out vs rieanimator, mirran crusader, delver, things of that naturem the reason im asking is i want to run horizon canopy or maze but not sure which

Maze is fine, but most decks that it's good against also play 4 Wasteland and/or stifles. I might get you there, but it might just get killed by one very common land in the format.

Also, if you do play it, you must count is as a spell and not a land since it cannot even produce colorless mana (unlike something like thespian stage which is still a land). Thus Maze vs Canopy are extremely different, so much I would never consider one over the other.

Magnaguard100
07-28-2017, 01:42 AM
Maze is fine, but most decks that it's good against also play 4 Wasteland and/or stifles. I might get you there, but it might just get killed by one very common land in the format.

Also, if you do play it, you must count is as a spell and not a land since it cannot even produce colorless mana (unlike something like thespian stage which is still a land). Thus Maze vs Canopy are extremely different, so much I would never consider one over the other.

In that case would you recommend keeping maze, or cutting maze for a spell and add a canopy?

4 mom
4 drs
1 birds
3 thalia got
1 ooze
1 teeg
1 scryb ranger
1 pridemage
4 kotr
1 excavator
1 tracker
2 thalia HC

4 gsz
4 swords
1 library
1 jitte
1 sofi

4 windswept
3 verdant
2 savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 forest
1 plains
4 waste
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 maze
1 cavern

Cpt-Qc
07-28-2017, 01:55 AM
21 mana producing lands is the bare minimum imo but since you also have Cavern and GQ, you have a lot of colorless. In your case I would play a canopy instead to make the land count 22 (Arbor is most of the time a mana dork rather than a land).

I personnally play 22 but I have been on 21 before and I did not notice it too much although I didn't have that much colorless.

ET1
07-28-2017, 09:05 AM
Whats the main reason why people dont run maze? Doesnt it help out vs rieanimator, mirran crusader, delver, things of that naturem the reason im asking is i want to run horizon canopy or maze but not sure which

It's also worth noting that Reanimator, Delver and Death and Taxes are all favorable match-ups as is and don't need additional help.

TMagpie
07-28-2017, 09:16 AM
I'm a big proponent of running Maze of Ith.
I'm also a big proponent of running 60 cards.

Sometimes the reason is to cut Maze is not because it isn't powerful enough, but simple because something needs to get cut.

Magnaguard100
07-28-2017, 11:21 AM
I'm a big proponent of running Maze of Ith.
I'm also a big proponent of running 60 cards.

Sometimes the reason is to cut Maze is not because it isn't powerful enough, but simple because something needs to get cut.

Whoops. Forgot to include the 2 sfm. One of my friends who is a prominent player said to keep maze and cut tracker for canopy

Cpt-Qc
07-28-2017, 12:35 PM
Whoops. Forgot to include the 2 sfm. One of my friends who is a prominent player said to keep maze and cut tracker for canopy

You also probably don't want more than six 3drops max unless you up the count of mana dorks.

TMagpie
07-28-2017, 01:15 PM
You also probably don't want more than six 3drops max unless you up the count of mana dorks.

TBH, I can't even stand more than four 3drops.

Cpt-Qc
07-28-2017, 01:25 PM
I know hehe, I used to cut 1 knight because I liked my curve lower but I put it back in because of peer pressure I guess so I'm running 5 with excavator (not including the 1 mana sink which is Batterskull in my case).

Crucible Snake has won me a game against Lands by himself (although I still lost the round). It's a pretty good feeling being able to out-last the best wasteland deck in the format :cool:

Megadeus
07-28-2017, 02:10 PM
Planning on playing the following at a Win a Mox Saturday. Not sure if I'm gonna play the teeg main or not, may end up swapping the SoLaS main for it. Haven't played the deck since Top got banned so I'm unsure on how much I need Teeg main.
Maverick:

Maindeck (61)
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Banishing Light
2 Choke



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/8abb19a3-b1b6-4247-9891-2d9fa3876ead

Magnaguard100
07-28-2017, 03:47 PM
You also probably don't want more than six 3drops max unless you up the count of mana dorks.

I mean im running 7, with 5 mana dorks, and gsz for dryad arbor being a potential 6th dork, so i think that should be fine

Amace
07-29-2017, 12:24 PM
Heya fellow Maverick players,

Today I want to get a closer look on a specific card, Voice of Resurgence, and how it MIGHT be actually more viable than it was before.

Let's start off with the advantages of playing it:

- Generally quite good vs blue tempo decks
- boardpresence after boardwipes
- usually a 2 for 1 in control matchups (except white variants)
- quite nice synergy with Cradle (if you play it)
- forces opponent to play on their turn, therefore less blowout potential (snapcaster, k-command etc)
- tutorable with GSZ
- cmc 2 instead of the awkwardly overfilled cmc 3

going to the negative aspects of playing it:

- doesn't do very much against unfair decks
- weak against exile effects (Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, also Terminus though not really exile)
- relatively low impact compared to other hatebears
- has to replace something else in the list since there aren't too many flex spots
- qiute useless against Bloodmoon/Prison lists

What changed so it could be viable again:

- OG Miracles got banned, and new Miracles isn't as good of a deck as OG miracles was.
- Grixis Delver / 4c Control Meta, Voice is actually quite good against both
- All around less Exile effects

How many to play?

Since its tutorable you don't need to commit much slots to it, the other question is: do you want to tutor it up instead of something else?
It's often a nice to have but quite rarely the best answer.

So what's your opinion, do you think Voice could see any play in Maverick nowadays? If yes how many? I'd love to get your opinion.

Best regards,

Amace

PS: I'll cover another card each day the following week (either new or fallen out of favor and maybe even established cards that gotten into question lately; P.M. me if you have any suggestions) because I'm on vacation and would like to produce some nice content

Skizz
07-29-2017, 02:47 PM
hello Amace,

great that you make serious thoughts about single Cards.

at first look i thought voice of resurgence is a great card and that it would have Impact playing in maverick when it came out.

lots of testing have changed my mind and since then it gathers dust in my binder.

as i remember back then it never did what it promises because opponents can just play around its effect
and than its just a a bad 2 drop 2/2 beater --> qasali pridemage is strictly better in this spot.

- your thought of bringing it against grixis sounds good indeed - but thats all i think.

for testing it again i would recommend not more that 1.

in general its not the 2-mana-hatebear that we need these days...

Amace
07-30-2017, 07:40 PM
Heya again fellow Maverick players,

today I want to cover a whole field of our deck: equipments!

First off a little table of content:

1. Which will I cover?
2. How useful are they?
3. Synergies and Anti-Synergies
4. How many equipments/Stoneforge Mystic should I play?

1. Which will I cover?

Since I want to help experienced as well as newer players I'll cover quite a lot this time:

- Umezawa's Jitte
- Batterskull
- Manriki-Gusari
- Sword of Fire and Ice
- Sword of Light and Shadow
- Sword of Feast and Famine
- Sword of War and Peace
- Sword of Body and Mind


How useful are they?

- Umezawa's Jitte's

Probably the bread and butter equipment in most creature matchups. It does just so much: It's much needed repeatable removal, can speed up your clock and even gain you life if you need it. All of that for the quite low mana cost of 2 and another 2 to equip. Also its fairly easy to enable it: pretty much just attack, the only reasonable way to stop it is by either bouncing the bllocker(like elves) or remove the attacker. So it's sometimes not the worst idea to attack with a quite weak creature which will die if you opponent blocks to enable the jitte to remove some otherwise awkward creatures (multiple x/1 creatures are just the best feeling).

Good Matchups: Elves(if you have some evasion, like Scryb Ranger or a live Mother of Runes), Death and Taxes, Mirror, and pretty much any other creaure based deck(exception:Leovold and Truename Nemesis Decks)

Rating: 5/5 - Super useful in many Matchups

- Batterskull

While Batterskull is pretty much a no-brainer in Death and Taxes and Stone-/Deathblade lists, Maverick doesn't necessarily need Batterskull. Since we usually don't run the 4 of Stoneforge Mystic, the value of Batterskull goes down immediately, because if we naturally draw a Batterskull without a Stoneforge Mystic in hand or on the battlefield, we have a 5-Mana 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that can get countered - not too bad but also not too impressive. Nevertheless Batterskull is quite impressive against BGx based lists since they don't have any good way to get rid of batterskull(Abrupt decay and Fatal Push can only kill the token, not the equipment itself) but also against most other control decks since it's a recurring threat on its own. Also pretty much any beater with an active Mother of Runes or a Sylvan Safekeeper can outrace pretty much any deck.

Good Matchups: Blue Control Matchups, BGx-Decks

Rating: 3/5 - Good in some matchups, gets better the more Stoneforge Mystics we play

- Manriki-Gusari

A quite specific equipment which can be pretty nice if you expect to face a huge load of Death and Taxes and Stone-/Deathblade Decks. Although you're maybe better of upping the number of Qasali Pridemages or Reclamation Sages, Manriki-Gusari is still a viable option.

Rating: 1,5/5 - Niche Equipment, you probably better of adjusting some other numbers

- Sword of Fire and Ice

The other stock-list staple powerhouse of Maverick's equipments nowadays. Like Umezawa's Jitte Sword of fire and Ice offers repeatable removal but also offers card advantage and evasion + protection. The protection of red offers protection from common removal spells like Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire and gives evasion through Young Pyromancer Token armies. The blue part offers protection of Jace, the Mind Sculptor's bounce and evasion against hard to deal threats like True name Nemesis and annoying blockers like Baleful Strix. But be aware of blowout potentials like attacking with a mediocre sized threat into a untapped Truename Nemesis into artifact removal and losing your threat to the opposing Truename Nemesis.

Good Matchups: Pretty much all blue control decks featuring Truename Nemesis, Delver decks, Lands, Blue Stone-/Deathblade decks

Rating: 4,5/5 - Pretty much the best of the Sword-Cycle in the current meta and an all around solid choice.

- Sword of Light and Shadow

The second sword of the cycle, Sword of Light and Shadow offers us an awesome combination of color protection/evasion. It blanks Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay(even though the sword itself can get destroyed) and swords to plowshares, some of the best and most popular removal spells in the format and provides evasion against a lot of annoying creatures, most prominent Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, Gurmag Angler, Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Griselbrand. The life gain is pretty nice but not too spectacular. The real deal is the rebuy mechanic of the sword, but it opens us up to graveyard hate, more specifically the overwhelming masses of Deathrite Shaman. This creature is the single reason, why Sword of Light and Shadow sin't too good of a choice right now, but nonetheless it's still a pretty good choice.

Good Matchups: black and white decks in general, Death and Taxes, midrange decks wihout deathrite shaman

Rating: 3,5/5 - Looks amazing but Deathrite Shaman is the real fun police here

- Sword of Feast and Famine

This is a sword that got in my focus recently. It offers great protection against Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay and evasion against Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Baleful Strix, Leovold, Emissary of Trest and elves. Though the more important effect is the reliable card advantage engine and the mana advantage it provides after hitting. It really helps to create some game winning tempo plays. If deathrite shaman wouldn't be in the format, this would be worse than Sword of light and Shadow, but right now, this is the more viable option imo.

Good Matchups: BGx Decks, Midrange decks

Rating: 4/5 - Good Colours, reliable card- and mana advantage

- Sword of War and Peace

A choice that was more of a house when miracles was still around, but it still has some quite good usability. The Protection of red is useful against Lightingn bult but also Punishing fire and provides evasion against tokens of Young Pyromancer. The Protection of white blanks Swords to Plowshares and hoses death and Taxes. Maybe the best way to utilize this sword is against lands, it protects your threats against Punishing Fire and provides a massive clock, your opponent will think twice if they loam every turn.

Good Matchups: Lands, Death and Taxes, New Miracles

Rating: 3,5/5 - Can be quite good, but maybe too narrow

- Sword of Body and Mind

Though I don't really like this sword, it has some nice applications, it's quite good against Truename Nemesis decks with its colors as well as elves by providing multiple threats and evasion. The reason why I don't like this sword is because it actively help some enemy decks by providing them with fuel for their delve cards. Although there are some nice interactions with our Deathrite Shamans and Scavenging Oozes I think this is the weakest sword of the cycle in the current meta.

Good Matchups: Truename Nemesis Decks, Blue and Greens decks in general

Rating: 3/5 - Has some aplications, but I don't think it's very viable right now

Synergies and Anti-Synergies

Umezawa's Jitte offers incredible utility with Firststrike creatures, since the firststrike damage resolves before the non-firststrike damage, so the counters are put on it before the enemy blocker deals any damage. Now you can use the -1/-1 ability to finish of enemy creatures before they get the chance to kill our first striker or any other creature.

Pay attention the protection your swords provide also affect your own spells and abilities, here a little example:

If your creature is equipped with a Sword of Light and Shadow, you control an active Mother of Runes and your opponent casts a Lightning Bolt targeting you equipped creature, you can't protect it with your Mother of Runes because of the protection of white provided by Sword of Light and Shadow. Same goes for Sylvan Safekeeper and Swords providing protection of green.

How many equipments/Stoneforge Mystic should I play?

Unlike Death and Taxes or Stone-/Deathblade decks, we don't need to play the full package of 4 Stoneforge mystics for a few reasons:

- We have more powerful creatures in terms of power and toughness, so we don't have to rely on the power of Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull
- Equipments are really really good in maverick even without cheating them into play, because we can power them out early with all the ramp we have and utilize them right away or later after a potential board wipe to turn a random hatebear/ramp creature into a serious threat.

So depending on the open slots in you list you can run 2-3 Equipments alongside 2-3 Stoneforge Mystics.

Note: If you want to play Batterskull, either play more(3+) Stoneforge Mystics or consider it as a serious manasink, maybe even both.


That's it from me today, I hope you had a good read.
Please let us know what you think about the points I made and consider replying your point of view.

I'll be creating more content the coming week, so if you have any idea/question about certain cards, please pm me.

Best regards,
Amace

TheoryCraft
07-31-2017, 11:34 AM
Hi @Amace, thanks for doing this! I appreciate the time you took to draft those articles, they were a good read. Here are a few other single card discussion cards for future topics to consider: Thalia, Heretic Cathar; Sylvan Library. I like Thalia, HC but there seems to be an opinion split on her. Same with whether Sylvan Library is still a worthwhile add or whether we should transition that over to something else, such as another GSQ bullet.

menloe
07-31-2017, 11:45 AM
Planning on playing the following at a Win a Mox Saturday. Not sure if I'm gonna play the teeg main or not, may end up swapping the SoLaS main for it. Haven't played the deck since Top got banned so I'm unsure on how much I need Teeg main.
Maverick:

Maindeck (61)
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Banishing Light
2 Choke



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/8abb19a3-b1b6-4247-9891-2d9fa3876ead

Eyy mega, how'd you do? What did you play against? I am going to try to go to the next win a mox since y'all are reasonably close to me.
I'll be the idiot playing Maverick poorly and possibly leaving early to go cry.

Navsi
07-31-2017, 12:04 PM
Note that Sword of Fire and Ice is particularly bad into Leovold - since it draws them an additional card and doesn't draw you anything at all.

TMagpie
07-31-2017, 12:23 PM
Note that Sword of Fire and Ice is particularly bad into Leovold - since it draws them an additional card and doesn't draw you anything at all.

If you target your own creature (say the one holding the SOFI who has the +2/+2 from the sword) then you would neither target your opponent nor his creatures, meaning Leo doesn't draw them a card.

Magnaguard100
07-31-2017, 02:06 PM
Eyy mega, how'd you do? What did you play against? I am going to try to go to the next win a mox since y'all are reasonably close to me.
I'll be the idiot playing Maverick poorly and possibly leaving early to go cry.

Magnaguard100
07-31-2017, 02:26 PM
Eyy mega, how'd you do? What did you play against? I am going to try to go to the next win a mox since y'all are reasonably close to me.
I'll be the idiot playing Maverick poorly and possibly leaving early to go cry.

Not bad. Ended up 4-3 which is worse than i wanted to but im not complaining. Il make a small tournament report.

Round 1 Aluren (2-0)

This was actually my friend from my LGS, so we both know what we are on. I lay a stream of hatebears both games and he couldnt combo off despite having a library in play for many turns.

Round 2 DnT (1-2)

Game 1 he gets an early vial into sfm for jitte and then just plays 3 serra avengers back to back and i get swarmed by flyers. Game 2 i get a fast hand and have double knight beating him in while killing all his permanents. Game 3 we both get a jitte in play but his mirran crusader plus mom gets him there.

Round 3 burn (2-1)

Game 1 im able to set up a board and scryb ranger with jitte gets me there though i had to waste myself to be able not die to price. Game 2 he sets up a fast clock, and double fireblast plus bolts kills me quick. Game 3 jitte gwts me there by having drs swing backed by mom.

Round 4 grixis delver (2-0)

Not much to say, we trade resources early game, but scryb ranger and double drs hold the fort til kotr can finish off the game

Round 5 DnT (2-1)

Game 1 he sets up flickerwisps and flyers and is able ti kill me with jitte and sofi. Game 2 i needle his vials, and proceed to beat him quicj as he kept a 2 vial hand with no colored mana. Game 3 drs and scryb ranger proved invaluable as i had only forest andn3 wastes, but being able to still produce 2 mana a turn meant that i was able to play jitte anf swing to seal the deal quicj even though we went to turns.

Round 6 dredge (1-2)

Game 1 i open with birds into ooze into teeg and the game ends quick. Game 2 he nut draws and has double led faithless and gets to dreaf return a grave troll and a bun h of zombies and attacks for 18 on his turn 2. Game 3 was sort of similar. He dredges hard and gets all 4 narcos but no bridges. He makes a giant troll and i try to play blockers, and draw a plow.If i hadnt boarded out my maze i woukd have won because he would of decked out. But hey thats magic.

Round 7 miracles (1-2)

Game 1 mom into teeg into thalia beats him down pretty quickly. Games 2 and 3 he is able to run me out of resources and overwhelm me with mentor and tokens.

Overall i had a lot of fun, and dont think i played poorly other than boarding out maze vs dredge. Gonna continue working on the list and mess around with stuff to see if i can find an optimal list i like

timmyod17
07-31-2017, 04:32 PM
Yesterday I made top 4 of the TJ Collectibles Titanium Series legacy event. It was a relatively small turnout with 57 players but had a diverse field with some good players.

My list:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

Matches:

Rd 1 vs Storm Win (1-0)
G1 led off with Karakas into Mother on the draw. He cast Ad Nauseum on his T2 and I scooped rather than let him resolve a Duress and let him know I wasn't on D&T. G2 he was totally surprised by my T1 Thoughtseize into Canonist into Teeg. G3 I thoughtseized away his only action and he just drew a billion Rituals and nothing to do with them.

Rd 2 vs B/R Reanimator Win (2-0)
G1 he mulled to 2 and never made a play before scooping. Had no idea how to board until he got a T1 Sire of Insanity in G2. Of course my next two draws after that were StP and land, in that order. G3 I had DRS T1, Ooze T2, and Karakas + StP for good measure.

Rd 3 vs U/W Stoneblade Win (3-0)
He had an interesting version with Squadron Hawk and mainboard Supreme Verdict. That said, Thalia into SFM fetching a Sword is pretty good. In both games he was forced to Verdict after I had beaten him down, and had a fetch available to grab Dryad Arbor and finish him off with it carrying a sword.

Rd 4 vs Burn Win (4-0)
G1 we spent the first few turns with me playing a Mother and him bolting it on sight, until one of mine finally stuck. I was stuck with Karakas and Ghost Quarter for lands, and in response to his Price of Progress I blew up my own Karakas, got a basic forest which allowed me to finally play the DRS I had rotting in my hand. He was utterly stunned when he realized I wasn't on D&T. Then I was able to land a Knight and made short work of him. G2 saw Mother into Thalia and some other beaters against a few Eidolons that got outclassed. Eventually I got him low enough that he couldn't cast any spells as his own Eidolons would kill him.

Rd 5 and 6 - Intentional Draws (4-0-2)
Had the #5 seed going into Top 8

Quarterfinals vs D&T Win (5-0-2)
Super grindy matchup that I took in two games. G1 I resolved 2x Mother and 2x DRS against his board with Thalia carrying a Jitte. Eventually got the Excavator + Wasteland online and killed off his lands. Then found a Jitte of my own and ended things quickly. G2 we had quite a board stall going on with both of us possessing multiple Mothers. Eventually I found a Sword of Light/Shadow and was able to move it around pre- and post-combat. Eventually he finally found a Flickerwisp, and when he attempted to blink a Recruiter I was ready with ZP to kill like 4 of his creatures.

Semifinals vs 4c TNN Blade (5-1-2)
This was on the stream. He naturally had TNN on turn 3 in all three games I think. G1 I managed to double Wasteland with Rallier and won a simple race. G2 I didn't have much going on and he beat me down with TNN + Leovold. G3 was super grindy but involved his TNN and my giant Knight staring at each other. At one point my Knight was 18/18. I had gone through all my Wastelands and had mostly kept him off colored mana. Finally found a SFM, grabbed Sword Fire/Ice. Sacrificed my last land to get a Cradle so I could activate SFM and equip the sword in one turn, but he totally blew me out with a ZP he cast in response, killing the Thalia I tried to equip. He then peeled a StP for my knight and Wasted my Cradle and equipped a Jitte. And that was that.

Overall thoughts: Maverick still has game against most decks and it felt good.
I switched one Pridemage to the Rallier at the last minute, and Rallier seemed to do work all day long. I liked Excavator when I saw it, but did not really like the Ghost Quarter. I felt like the decks that have basics tend to have enough to make that combo relatively irrelevant (if I have to GQ you 8 times to run you out of basics, I'd rather have already won some other way by that point). Excavator seems REALLY INSANE in some matchups and quite bad in others, and similar to Teeg in that regard. I think one is the correct number. I am not missing the second Teeg in the sideboard.

Maybe it's just me but one of my favorite tactics with this deck is to throw people off who don't know what deck I'm playing by starting off as if I'm D&T or Elves. T1 Karakas or Plains into Mother or T1 Forest and GSZ for Dryad Arbor send pretty strong signals. I've gotten many people to really contort their early game play and choose suboptimal lines this way.

I'm looking forward to tuning the deck as we approach Eternal Weekend and the next SCG open. Comments on the list are appreciated :)

Megadeus
07-31-2017, 05:47 PM
Yesterday I made top 4 of the TJ Collectibles Titanium Series legacy event. It was a relatively small turnout with 57 players but had a diverse field with some good players.

My list:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

Matches:

Rd 1 vs Storm Win (1-0)
G1 led off with Karakas into Mother on the draw. He cast Ad Nauseum on his T2 and I scooped rather than let him resolve a Duress and let him know I wasn't on D&T. G2 he was totally surprised by my T1 Thoughtseize into Canonist into Teeg. G3 I thoughtseized away his only action and he just drew a billion Rituals and nothing to do with them.

Rd 2 vs B/R Reanimator Win (2-0)
G1 he mulled to 2 and never made a play before scooping. Had no idea how to board until he got a T1 Sire of Insanity in G2. Of course my next two draws after that were StP and land, in that order. G3 I had DRS T1, Ooze T2, and Karakas + StP for good measure.

Rd 3 vs U/W Stoneblade Win (3-0)
He had an interesting version with Squadron Hawk and mainboard Supreme Verdict. That said, Thalia into SFM fetching a Sword is pretty good. In both games he was forced to Verdict after I had beaten him down, and had a fetch available to grab Dryad Arbor and finish him off with it carrying a sword.

Rd 4 vs Burn Win (4-0)
G1 we spent the first few turns with me playing a Mother and him bolting it on sight, until one of mine finally stuck. I was stuck with Karakas and Ghost Quarter for lands, and in response to his Price of Progress I blew up my own Karakas, got a basic forest which allowed me to finally play the DRS I had rotting in my hand. He was utterly stunned when he realized I wasn't on D&T. Then I was able to land a Knight and made short work of him. G2 saw Mother into Thalia and some other beaters against a few Eidolons that got outclassed. Eventually I got him low enough that he couldn't cast any spells as his own Eidolons would kill him.

Rd 5 and 6 - Intentional Draws (4-0-2)
Had the #5 seed going into Top 8

Quarterfinals vs D&T Win (5-0-2)
Super grindy matchup that I took in two games. G1 I resolved 2x Mother and 2x DRS against his board with Thalia carrying a Jitte. Eventually got the Excavator + Wasteland online and killed off his lands. Then found a Jitte of my own and ended things quickly. G2 we had quite a board stall going on with both of us possessing multiple Mothers. Eventually I found a Sword of Light/Shadow and was able to move it around pre- and post-combat. Eventually he finally found a Flickerwisp, and when he attempted to blink a Recruiter I was ready with ZP to kill like 4 of his creatures.

Semifinals vs 4c TNN Blade (5-1-2)
This was on the stream. He naturally had TNN on turn 3 in all three games I think. G1 I managed to double Wasteland with Rallier and won a simple race. G2 I didn't have much going on and he beat me down with TNN + Leovold. G3 was super grindy but involved his TNN and my giant Knight staring at each other. At one point my Knight was 18/18. I had gone through all my Wastelands and had mostly kept him off colored mana. Finally found a SFM, grabbed Sword Fire/Ice. Sacrificed my last land to get a Cradle so I could activate SFM and equip the sword in one turn, but he totally blew me out with a ZP he cast in response, killing the Thalia I tried to equip. He then peeled a StP for my knight and Wasted my Cradle and equipped a Jitte. And that was that.

Overall thoughts: Maverick still has game against most decks and it felt good.
I switched one Pridemage to the Rallier at the last minute, and Rallier seemed to do work all day long. I liked Excavator when I saw it, but did not really like the Ghost Quarter. I felt like the decks that have basics tend to have enough to make that combo relatively irrelevant (if I have to GQ you 8 times to run you out of basics, I'd rather have already won some other way by that point). Excavator seems REALLY INSANE in some matchups and quite bad in others, and similar to Teeg in that regard. I think one is the correct number. I am not missing the second Teeg in the sideboard.

Maybe it's just me but one of my favorite tactics with this deck is to throw people off who don't know what deck I'm playing by starting off as if I'm D&T or Elves. T1 Karakas or Plains into Mother or T1 Forest and GSZ for Dryad Arbor send pretty strong signals. I've gotten many people to really contort their early game play and choose suboptimal lines this way.

I'm looking forward to tuning the deck as we approach Eternal Weekend and the next SCG open. Comments on the list are appreciated :)

I watched your match in the semi finals. Pretty miserable. I complained about true name piece of shit much. If only you had my hot Rogues Passage Tech ;)

But seriously good job. You just got fucked by that piece of shit card and I think you made the correct play. Thalia at that point is probably less important than Pridemage. That match truly made me realize how boring a card TNN is. You out played him and you just got boned by a broken blue card.

I played a major event with my above list. Ended up 3-2 with both losses coming against burn where I got nut drawn on once and the other died to Mulligan. Game 3 in the second burn match up, kept a hand of STP, plains, wasteland, knight, knight, green Sun. I figure I have a scry to find something, and any draw between any white creature or Green land is good for me. Unfortunately I scry a Scrubland to the bottom and proceed to draw all of my colorless non basics and die. Maybe that's a Mulligan, but it felt alright

movingtonewao
08-01-2017, 01:56 AM
Were the streamed games recorded? I would love to watch a replay of that semifinals game you had, if someone could link it :)

Oathbreakers
08-01-2017, 09:43 AM
Yesterday I made top 4 of the TJ Collectibles Titanium Series legacy event. It was a relatively small turnout with 57 players but had a diverse field with some good players.

My list:

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Renegade Rallier

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:

1 Blessed Alliance
2 Choke
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution

Matches:

Rd 1 vs Storm Win (1-0)
G1 led off with Karakas into Mother on the draw. He cast Ad Nauseum on his T2 and I scooped rather than let him resolve a Duress and let him know I wasn't on D&T. G2 he was totally surprised by my T1 Thoughtseize into Canonist into Teeg. G3 I thoughtseized away his only action and he just drew a billion Rituals and nothing to do with them.

Rd 2 vs B/R Reanimator Win (2-0)
G1 he mulled to 2 and never made a play before scooping. Had no idea how to board until he got a T1 Sire of Insanity in G2. Of course my next two draws after that were StP and land, in that order. G3 I had DRS T1, Ooze T2, and Karakas + StP for good measure.

Rd 3 vs U/W Stoneblade Win (3-0)
He had an interesting version with Squadron Hawk and mainboard Supreme Verdict. That said, Thalia into SFM fetching a Sword is pretty good. In both games he was forced to Verdict after I had beaten him down, and had a fetch available to grab Dryad Arbor and finish him off with it carrying a sword.

Rd 4 vs Burn Win (4-0)
G1 we spent the first few turns with me playing a Mother and him bolting it on sight, until one of mine finally stuck. I was stuck with Karakas and Ghost Quarter for lands, and in response to his Price of Progress I blew up my own Karakas, got a basic forest which allowed me to finally play the DRS I had rotting in my hand. He was utterly stunned when he realized I wasn't on D&T. Then I was able to land a Knight and made short work of him. G2 saw Mother into Thalia and some other beaters against a few Eidolons that got outclassed. Eventually I got him low enough that he couldn't cast any spells as his own Eidolons would kill him.

Rd 5 and 6 - Intentional Draws (4-0-2)
Had the #5 seed going into Top 8

Quarterfinals vs D&T Win (5-0-2)
Super grindy matchup that I took in two games. G1 I resolved 2x Mother and 2x DRS against his board with Thalia carrying a Jitte. Eventually got the Excavator + Wasteland online and killed off his lands. Then found a Jitte of my own and ended things quickly. G2 we had quite a board stall going on with both of us possessing multiple Mothers. Eventually I found a Sword of Light/Shadow and was able to move it around pre- and post-combat. Eventually he finally found a Flickerwisp, and when he attempted to blink a Recruiter I was ready with ZP to kill like 4 of his creatures.

Semifinals vs 4c TNN Blade (5-1-2)
This was on the stream. He naturally had TNN on turn 3 in all three games I think. G1 I managed to double Wasteland with Rallier and won a simple race. G2 I didn't have much going on and he beat me down with TNN + Leovold. G3 was super grindy but involved his TNN and my giant Knight staring at each other. At one point my Knight was 18/18. I had gone through all my Wastelands and had mostly kept him off colored mana. Finally found a SFM, grabbed Sword Fire/Ice. Sacrificed my last land to get a Cradle so I could activate SFM and equip the sword in one turn, but he totally blew me out with a ZP he cast in response, killing the Thalia I tried to equip. He then peeled a StP for my knight and Wasted my Cradle and equipped a Jitte. And that was that.

Overall thoughts: Maverick still has game against most decks and it felt good.
I switched one Pridemage to the Rallier at the last minute, and Rallier seemed to do work all day long. I liked Excavator when I saw it, but did not really like the Ghost Quarter. I felt like the decks that have basics tend to have enough to make that combo relatively irrelevant (if I have to GQ you 8 times to run you out of basics, I'd rather have already won some other way by that point). Excavator seems REALLY INSANE in some matchups and quite bad in others, and similar to Teeg in that regard. I think one is the correct number. I am not missing the second Teeg in the sideboard.

Maybe it's just me but one of my favorite tactics with this deck is to throw people off who don't know what deck I'm playing by starting off as if I'm D&T or Elves. T1 Karakas or Plains into Mother or T1 Forest and GSZ for Dryad Arbor send pretty strong signals. I've gotten many people to really contort their early game play and choose suboptimal lines this way.

I'm looking forward to tuning the deck as we approach Eternal Weekend and the next SCG open. Comments on the list are appreciated :)

Congrats on top 4~

I'm on something close to your MD with a 4 cards different in the main

-1 Thalia +1 Batterskull
-1 Swords +1 Decay
-1 Rallier. +1 Noble
-1 Ghost Q. +1 Cavern

Few questions,

are you going to keep the Rallier over the 2nd QPM?

What are you going to play over Ghost Quarter?

How was Blessed Alliance?

maharis
08-01-2017, 02:28 PM
I watched your match in the semi finals. Pretty miserable. I complained about true name piece of shit much. If only you had my hot Rogues Passage Tech ;)

But seriously good job. You just got fucked by that piece of shit card and I think you made the correct play. Thalia at that point is probably less important than Pridemage. That match truly made me realize how boring a card TNN is. You out played him and you just got boned by a broken blue card.

I thought that might have been you. I was watching that as well and when he had two 7/7 knights out vs. the TNN I sent a screenshot to my friend and said "watch knight guy lose this game." It's not like the decks are all that different... lots of mana dorks, some disruption, some library manipulation, trying to play to the board. But it's just no fun to play with or against that card anymore. It just makes every other 3+ drop look like crap.

calcymon
08-01-2017, 02:47 PM
are you going to keep the Rallier over the 2nd QPM?



note : if u need the second qasali u still can play Renegade Rallier to resurrect the one u played:cool:if they dont have deathrite:laugh:


timmyod17 : the same question as oathbreakers for quarter, u will run a 5th managain (bop or hierarc) or 1 more fetch or Tireless?

Amace
08-01-2017, 03:11 PM
Heya fellow Maverick enthusiasts,

today I want to talk about Thalia, Heretic Cathar, which user TheoryCraft asked for(thank you for the feedback)

First of a little table of contents:

1. Analysis
2. Against which decks is she good especially?
3. The right number to play
4. Rating

Analysis

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=414338&type=card

Let's start to analyze her bit by bit:

Mana Cost:
2W - fairly easy to cast with only one white mana requirement. Nevertheless it's one of her biggest weaknesses compared to other options, which is she can't be tutored up by Green Sun's Zenith. Also we have quite a lot good CMC 3 creature alternatives, so the slots are heavily fought about.

Removal
The Classic dies to...?
- Fatal Push(with Revolt trigger enabled)
- Lightning Bolt
- Swords to Plowshares
- Abrupt Decay
- Path to Exile
- Collective Brutality
- Kolaghan's Command
- Pyroclasm
- Kozilek's Return
- Punishing Fire
- Barbarian Ring
- Cabal Pit
- Molten Vortex
- Karakas

Long story short, she dies to pretty much every single removal spell commonly used in the format.

Abilities
Since he has First Strike, she is quite good vs the most creatures in the format on her own and has nice synergy with our equipments, especially Umezawa's Jitte.

Her real power comes from her second ability: Creatures and Non-Basic lands your opponent gets into play enter the battlefield itapped.
So what does this really mean?
Non-Basic lands enter the battlefield tapped:
This ability plays into our plan to disrupt our enemy's manabase. The earlier you get her onto the battlefield, the better her potential effect. Effectively it delays our opponent manacurve by 1 turn, but this isn't the only aplication. Since even fetchlands enter the battlefield tapped, we have the chance to wasteland them right away instead of waiting until they crack it and fetch a basic land just to see our wasteland beeing useless. So there is definetly some nice interaction. But land the destruction isn't the only upside of this ability, since it also interrupts most utility lands(except Dark Depths if there is an active Thespian Stage in game, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm). So it potentially gets us a turn to find an answer like Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter or to get our Knight of the Reliquary active.

Creatures enter the battlefield tapped:
This ability is great if you're ahead on board and almost useless if you're behind. In general it's quite good vs creaure based decks, since they have less potential blockers available for your next turn. It also effectively negates haste effects and abilities that don't care about summoning sickness(like Heritage Druid).

Against which decks is she good especially?

- Lands:
She delays a lot of plays lands players would like to do and weakens Loam loops of Barbarian Ring and Cabal Pit(if they play them) but most importantly delays the Thespian Stage/Dark Dephts combo.

- Sneak and Show:
Renders Sneak Attack practically useless.

Mono Red Sneak/Big Red:
Renders Sneak Attack practically useless.

Elves:
Stops them from comboing off with Glimpse of Nature/Heritage Druid/Gaea's Cradle all in one turn. A Tapped Craterhoof Behemoth isn't as scary as a Tapped one.

The right number to play

Since we can't tutor her up with Green Sun's Zenith, we almost have to play her in multiples if we want her. By that in mean 2-3. We don't want 4 Since she is legendary and not as impactful as her younger self. We want her EARLY, so we would want to play at least 3, but then we are at the space problem again. We can't justify to make enough space to support her in those numbers, since she basically is a pain in the ass of our opponent, but doesn't win the game on her own most of the time, like Knight of the Reliquary does.
We want her as early as possible but can't fit those numbers, this is in my opinion her biggest problem.

Rating

3,5/5 - She does a lot of things - but we can't really support the numbers. Maybe she fits better in a Aether Vial shell, but i don't see her too impressive in a GSZ shell.


Anyway I hope you had a good read and would love to get some feedback and interesting Ideas, also for future articles.

Best regards,
Amace

timmyod17
08-01-2017, 03:41 PM
Congrats on top 4~

I'm on something close to your MD with a 4 cards different in the main

-1 Thalia +1 Batterskull
-1 Swords +1 Decay
-1 Rallier. +1 Noble
-1 Ghost Q. +1 Cavern

Few questions,

are you going to keep the Rallier over the 2nd QPM?

What are you going to play over Ghost Quarter?

How was Blessed Alliance?

I think Rallier has earned a spot in my list. It has uses in just about any matchup, whereas I just seem to never want to draw QPM unless I'm facing D&T or Stoneblade (or something weird like Enchantress or MUD). Rallier can even act as QPM #2 by getting it back.

I think I want to go back to Cavern of Souls over the GQ. Fun fact: Ramunap Excavator is a Cleric. Just like Mother, Prelate, Containment Priest, and Canonist.

Blessed Alliance is somewhat of a pet card of mine. It is super versatile and generally has performed well. I bring it in against any deck with TNN, Delver, D&T, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Lands, Infect, Burn, Eldrazi, and more. I've used all 3 modes profitably (the oft-forgotten untap 2 creatures mode can be really strong in Maverick particularly).

TMagpie
08-01-2017, 05:16 PM
I think Rallier has earned a spot in my list. It has uses in just about any matchup, whereas I just seem to never want to draw QPM unless I'm facing D&T or Stoneblade (or something weird like Enchantress or MUD). Rallier can even act as QPM #2 by getting it back.

I think I want to go back to Cavern of Souls over the GQ. Fun fact: Ramunap Excavator is a Cleric. Just like Mother, Prelate, Containment Priest, and Canonist.

Blessed Alliance is somewhat of a pet card of mine. It is super versatile and generally has performed well. I bring it in against any deck with TNN, Delver, D&T, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Lands, Infect, Burn, Eldrazi, and more. I've used all 3 modes profitably (the oft-forgotten untap 2 creatures mode can be really strong in Maverick particularly).

I have issues with both Ranumap and Rallier being 3cc more than their effect. I even prefer Rec Sage over pridemage for the effect he provides. Pridemage being a Watchwolf is just so good.

However, I think we are at a phase where the number of 3drops that one can fit in Maverick is a personal choice. What is less personal is the casting cost of spells. the only issue I have ever had with Blessed Alliance is that its single effect seems meh but its escalated effect seems bonkers; how often were you able to escalate?

timmyod17
08-02-2017, 06:56 AM
I have issues with both Ranumap and Rallier being 3cc more than their effect. I even prefer Rec Sage over pridemage for the effect he provides. Pridemage being a Watchwolf is just so good.

However, I think we are at a phase where the number of 3drops that one can fit in Maverick is a personal choice. What is less personal is the casting cost of spells. the only issue I have ever had with Blessed Alliance is that its single effect seems meh but its escalated effect seems bonkers; how often were you able to escalate?

I think having a glut of 3 CMC creatures is a fair criticism of those cards. I just found myself often wanting more powerful effects in the deck without having to go up to 4 or 5 CMC.

Regarding escalate, it's obviously easier vs certain decks. I usually don't get to escalate vs decks with Daze. But I can get 2 (or 3) modes against decks like D&T or Lands perhaps 50% of the time. It feels so good getting a Marit Late or an equipped Mirran Crusader by surprise.

menloe
08-02-2017, 02:17 PM
I think Rallier has earned a spot in my list. It has uses in just about any matchup, whereas I just seem to never want to draw QPM unless I'm facing D&T or Stoneblade (or something weird like Enchantress or MUD). Rallier can even act as QPM #2 by getting it back.

I think I want to go back to Cavern of Souls over the GQ. Fun fact: Ramunap Excavator is a Cleric. Just like Mother, Prelate, Containment Priest, and Canonist.

Blessed Alliance is somewhat of a pet card of mine. It is super versatile and generally has performed well. I bring it in against any deck with TNN, Delver, D&T, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Lands, Infect, Burn, Eldrazi, and more. I've used all 3 modes profitably (the oft-forgotten untap 2 creatures mode can be really strong in Maverick particularly).

I also like Blessed Alliance. Won me a game against Infect when he had protection in hand. I would have lost that turn if I cast Swords, the only other card in my hand, but fortunately I read the Source. I also keep it for the other decks you mention, particularly Griselbrand and TNN decks and Sneak and Show.

scapiander
08-04-2017, 12:44 AM
quick question, what are the matchups that Maverick tends to be UN-favored in?

Magnaguard100
08-04-2017, 01:40 AM
quick question, what are the matchups that Maverick tends to be UN-favored in?

Generally uninteractive combo decks that go off before we can get a hate piece on board. If storm can kill us before we thalia/ teeg, or dredge can make enough zombies before ooze or drs are active then its bad. Overall the worst matchups ive played are MUD, cloudpost, fast storm, mono red stompy if we cant get any basics, and elves. Maverick is one of those decks that has pretty much a 50/50 against most decks. We dont really have any byes and we have to work for our wins. Its all about player skill and knowing how your cards inteact with your opponents.

Magnaguard100
08-04-2017, 01:41 AM
I also like Blessed Alliance. Won me a game against Infect when he had protection in hand. I would have lost that turn if I cast Swords, the only other card in my hand, but fortunately I read the Source. I also keep it for the other decks you mention, particularly Griselbrand and TNN decks and Sneak and Show.

I used blessed alliance against elves today to ruin progenituses life. It was great

Rascalyote
08-04-2017, 03:50 AM
I made quite a 'few' changes again to my main deck and went 4-0 at my weekly. Didn't have time//forgot to change up my SB, would make some tweaks to it. (3rd surgical, less IoK?, more brutality?, Ghost Quarter/bog/swamp!!?).

2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
-25!-

4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
-14-

1 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ramunap Excavator
4 Knight of the Reliquary
-21-

2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
-15-

I decided to set mom and SFM package on the bench in place of discard and a bit of a depths package. No need to tell me how good those white cards are, I've played them for years but I thought it was time to try a bit of a different build. Discard was a nice replacement for mother as it helps protect your creatures but is more proactive, faster, more useful against combo and other icky stuff you don't want to touch the stack. The 2 brutalities were especially nice as they let me play even more discard but not feel the diminishing returns quite as hard.

SFM and mother were both nice in dancing around TNN//Leovold piles but I decided killing that with a lage was just easier and less of a headache, there's also a ton of -x/-x hate going around and dread of night and what not that it helped in my decision of playing the thoughtseizes instead. However SFM was one of my few ways to get up some card advantage so I went with 2 copies of Ramunap Excavator for those longer grind fest games where you can get more horizon canopies, lages, wastelands. W/e you need you know.

When I play lage I usually have depths in place of a spell and stage in the land slot but I decided with more black cards main deck I needed to have good mana fixing so I didn't want to cut a coloured land for stage, so I counted it as a spell, this deck has good ways to combat potential floods anyways.

"Doesn't grave hate makes most of your threats suck, like Knight, excavator etc." I mean I guess. That doesn't stop Knight from tapping and wasting or laging you, 2/2's and 2/3's also can get the job done, or even a 1/2 - Get 'em DRS!.

"Is this even Maverick or just Junk" Maverick is a pretty junky deck :^). Jokes <3

Stuart
08-04-2017, 09:07 AM
I'd like to squeeze 1 Crucible Man into this 60, but am having trouble deciding where to make the cut:

1 Birds
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Little Thalia
3 Big Thalia
1 Teeg
2 Pridemage
4 Knight

4 GSZ
1 Library
4 Plow
2 Decay
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
8 Fetches
1 Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

My initial thought is that it's either gonna be -1 Big Thalia or -1 Decay, but I really do love both those cards. Any thoughts, Maverick Community?

Magnaguard100
08-04-2017, 09:28 AM
I'd like to squeeze 1 Crucible Man into this 60, but am having trouble deciding where to make the cut:

1 Birds
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Little Thalia
3 Big Thalia
1 Teeg
2 Pridemage
4 Knight

4 GSZ
1 Library
4 Plow
2 Decay
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
8 Fetches
1 Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

My initial thought is that it's either gonna be -1 Big Thalia or -1 Decay, but I really do love both those cards. Any thoughts, Maverick Community?

Id cut big thalia. 3 copies is a little too many for her. She can be really good but sometimes not so good. Crucible snake is almost always never bad. Buy back arbor for blocks, canopy for extra card draw, wastes to lock them out, even fetches to thin your deck out/ reset library. He is soo good.

pettdan
08-04-2017, 09:37 AM
@Stuart: lots of possible cuts. Thalia HC is constantly debated so she seems like the first option to cut. On the other hand she's probably good with Excavator, making repeated Wastelands for fetches a thing in most match ups.

With the two main decked decays I would also consider settling for one Qasali, there is some overlap between these cards. (Personally I like one copy of Rallier as a second Qasali or Jitte in match ups where they are important.)

Finally I'm not really a fan of the ninth mana ramp creature (bop next to 4 Deathrites and 4 GSZ's) but that's quite debatable (too). With a large amount of 3 drops maybe it's worth it. Edit: actually, if Deathrite keeps emptying the graveyard of lands, maybe there is enough reason to change some number of Deathrites into BoPs or Nobles to not get in the way of Excavator. I need to do some testing.

Magnaguard100
08-04-2017, 11:37 AM
@Stuart: lots of possible cuts. Thalia HC is constantly debated so she seems like the first option to cut. On the other hand she's probably good with Excavator, making repeated Wastelands for fetches a thing in most match ups.

With the two main decked decays I would also consider settling for one Qasali, there is some overlap between these cards. (Personally I like one copy of Rallier as a second Qasali or Jitte in match ups where they are important.)

Finally I'm not really a fan of the ninth mana ramp creature (bop next to 4 Deathrites and 4 GSZ's) but that's quite debatable (too). With a large amount of 3 drops maybe it's worth it. Edit: actually, if Deathrite keeps emptying the graveyard of lands, maybe there is enough reason to change some number of Deathrites into BoPs or Nobles to not get in the way of Excavator. I need to do some testing.

I like having bop over noble. The exalted isnt the most relavent, but being able to produce any color helps a lot as well as being a flyer has helped a lot. Being able to block grissle or lage with mom backup is great. Also turn 1 birds into turn 2 scryb ranger into another 2 drop without needing lands in gy is pretty beefy

Stuart
08-04-2017, 12:25 PM
Cheers guys. I think it's gotta be Big Thalia who gets the cut. I love her, but as she's pretty situational and the same CMC as Crucible Man, she's probably less vital than Decay.

Re. Birds: I've found it to be an amazing 5th/9th dork. In straight GW Hierarch is probably better, but Flying and tapping for B is great.

Magnaguard100
08-04-2017, 01:36 PM
Cheers guys. I think it's gotta be Big Thalia who gets the cut. I love her, but as she's pretty situational and the same CMC as Crucible Man, she's probably less vital than Decay.

Re. Birds: I've found it to be an amazing 5th/9th dork. In straight GW Hierarch is probably better, but Flying and tapping for B is great.

I recently cut big thalias from my deck for some fun cards. Right now on sylvan safekeeper titania plan, and it has been pretty solid, but it migh also be double decay or decay elspeth. Basically just toying around with potentials

TMagpie
08-04-2017, 02:15 PM
Cheers guys. I think it's gotta be Big Thalia who gets the cut. I love her, but as she's pretty situational and the same CMC as Crucible Man, she's probably less vital than Decay.

Re. Birds: I've found it to be an amazing 5th/9th dork. In straight GW Hierarch is probably better, but Flying and tapping for B is great.

I am starting to find the first BoP to be more essential than the first DRS/Heirarch. If cutting a mana dork is needed, I will not be cutting the bird.

Magnaguard100
08-05-2017, 09:12 AM
What is everyones consensus on gaeas cradle. Is it better to have it or no? Or would ghost quarter be more relavent now with excavator?

Cpt-Qc
08-05-2017, 11:38 AM
What is everyones consensus on gaeas cradle. Is it better to have it or no? Or would ghost quarter be more relavent now with excavator?

I personnally think that Maverick isn't well suited to get rid of 3-8 basics. By the time you cut someone off basics you're usually far behind on the board and they still have access to all their duals. I think it's better to focus on disrupting greedy manabases only and keep cradle to get some kind of mana advantage while you execute this plan.

Magnaguard100
08-05-2017, 01:00 PM
I personnally think that Maverick isn't well suited to get rid of 3-8 basics. By the time you cut someone off basics you're usually far behind on the board and they still have access to all their duals. I think it's better to focus on disrupting greedy manabases only and keep cradle to get some kind of mana advantage while you execute this plan.

Thats underatandable and i agree with that. What about decks that run 0-2 basics? Ive had corner case scenarios where having quarter won me a couple games because they fetched basics early and it became strip mine, and there are times where i had a lot of small dudes in play but not enough mana to do what i wanted

Cpt-Qc
08-06-2017, 12:58 AM
Thats underatandable and i agree with that. What about decks that run 0-2 basics? Ive had corner case scenarios where having quarter won me a couple games because they fetched basics early and it became strip mine, and there are times where i had a lot of small dudes in play but not enough mana to do what i wanted

I never tested with GQ but I don't feel maverick is good enough to tax. I always describe it as close to DnT but more Death less Taxes so I don't want to go there. Maybe it would work but that's not my idea of the deck.

pettdan
08-06-2017, 06:24 AM
I never tested with GQ but I don't feel maverick is good enough to tax. I always describe it as close to DnT but more Death less Taxes so I don't want to go there. Maybe it would work but that's not my idea of the deck.

Ghost Quartering someone is not to be considered a main strategy of the deck. Rather see it as low-investment inevitability in a few match ups (coupled with Excavator and maybe Mother) and Wasteland no five in others. What do you give up? A single land. What do you gain? The possibility of carrying out the deck's mana denial strategy vs the decks that are protecting themselves from this by playing 1-2 basics and even to a lesser extent the decks that play more basics. It's not like an extra fetch would win you a lot of games in its place. Or well, that's the actual question. My initial assumption was that we don't want to give up any utility lands so the alternatives are perhaps to lower the dedication on a splashed color and replace a dual, to replace a Wasteland, or to increase the amount of lands in the deck. I felt most comfortable experimenting with a lighter splash, Decay is no longer necessary and when we need discard there is no pressure on our lands anyway... Or a fetch. Or a Wasteland. Gah..

The ability to play multiple lands each turn becomes very attractive with an Excavator in play. Maybe it's time to playtest the monster toad (Gitrog Monster). But on the other hand, Titania has been really good now for the last two years (well, for me) and I don't see playing two five drops.

Magnaguard100
08-06-2017, 09:42 AM
Ghost Quartering someone is not to be considered a main strategy of the deck. Rather see it as low-investment inevitability in a few match ups (coupled with Excavator and maybe Mother) and Wasteland no five in others. What do you give up? A single land. What do you gain? The possibility of carrying out the deck's mana denial strategy vs the decks that are protecting themselves from this by playing 1-2 basics and even to a lesser extent the decks that play more basics. It's not like an extra fetch would win you a lot of games in its place. Or well, that's the actual question. My initial assumption was that we don't want to give up any utility lands so the alternatives are perhaps to lower the dedication on a splashed color and replace a dual, to replace a Wasteland, or to increase the amount of lands in the deck. I felt most comfortable experimenting with a lighter splash, Decay is no longer necessary and when we need discard there is no pressure on our lands anyway... Or a fetch. Or a Wasteland. Gah..

The ability to play multiple lands each turn becomes very attractive with an Excavator in play. Maybe it's time to playtest the monster toad (Gitrog Monster). But on the other hand, Titania has been really good now for the last two years (well, for me) and I don't see playing two five drops.

So what your saying in a roundabout way is that GQ is a viable strategy for the deck, and should run it?

pettdan
08-06-2017, 10:23 AM
So what your saying in a roundabout way is that GQ is a viable strategy for the deck, and should run it?

I think this, below, is the part of my post that is most central. I'm writing on my phone and it's a bit messy rewriting things for more clarity, so sorry if it's not too clear.

"What do you give up? A single land. What do you gain? The possibility of carrying out the deck's mana denial strategy vs the decks that are protecting themselves from this by playing 1-2 basics and even to a lesser extent the decks that play more basics. It's not like an extra fetch would win you a lot of games in its place. Or well, that's the actual question."

So, I'm not giving a yes or no answer but instead emphasizing what the cost is of running a copy of Ghost Quarter and what advantages it would bring. I think it seems worthy of testing, but it is not yet a Maverick staple.

Magnaguard100
08-06-2017, 12:42 PM
I think this, below, is the part of my post that is most central. I'm writing on my phone and it's a bit messy rewriting things for more clarity, so sorry if it's not too clear.

"What do you give up? A single land. What do you gain? The possibility of carrying out the deck's mana denial strategy vs the decks that are protecting themselves from this by playing 1-2 basics and even to a lesser extent the decks that play more basics. It's not like an extra fetch would win you a lot of games in its place. Or well, that's the actual question."

So, I'm not giving a yes or no answer but instead emphasizing what the cost is of running a copy of Ghost Quarter and what advantages it would bring. I think it seems worthy of testing, but it is not yet a Maverick staple.

Ive been testing it for the past couple weeks and its been either insane or mediocre. Sometimes its just another wasteland, sometimes its actual wasteland if they needled wasteland, killed a couple basics my opponent agressivly fetched out, but agaunst dnt and miracles its bee. Subpar. So overall its been 2/10 or 10/10. Much like excavator

pettdan
08-06-2017, 01:12 PM
Ive been testing it for the past couple weeks and its been either insane or mediocre. Sometimes its just another wasteland, sometimes its actual wasteland if they needled wasteland, killed a couple basics my opponent agressivly fetched out, but agaunst dnt and miracles its bee. Subpar. So overall its been 2/10 or 10/10. Much like excavator

I see. Well I don't expect it to be great all the time so if it's sometimes 10/10 that would mean it has the high ceiling one could hope for.

And, based on your recent question, it seems as if you are playing GQ over Cradle, is that the case? I would prefer Cradle over GQ, to answer that question. We had a discussion about Cradle vs Depths about two months ago and I was trying to find it, to link it, but couldn't. I think Cradle was considered a card that should be included by most. Anyway, I think something else should be cut, maybe a black dual or the third basic that some play, myself included. I'll try not to write more on this topic since I need to test it more...

Magnaguard100
08-06-2017, 02:03 PM
I see. Well I don't expect it to be great all the time so if it's sometimes 10/10 that would mean it has the high ceiling one could hope for.

And, based on your recent question, it seems as if you are playing GQ over Cradle, is that the case? I would prefer Cradle over GQ, to answer that question. We had a discussion about Cradle vs Depths about two months ago and I was trying to find it, to link it, but couldn't. I think Cradle was considered a card that should be included by most. Anyway, I think something else should be cut, maybe a black dual or the third basic that some play, myself included. I'll try not to write more on this topic since I need to test it more...

My current list is

4 drs
4 mom
1 birds
1 safekeeper
2 sfm
3 thalia
1 pridemage
1 teeg
1 ooze
1 scryb ranger
4 knight
1 excavator
1 rallier
1 titania

4 gsz
4 plow
1 library
1 jitte
1 sofi

7 fetches
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
1 maze
1 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy

What do you think i should cut for cradle? Im thinking possibly bayou, though i could just play 61

pettdan
08-06-2017, 03:45 PM
@Magnaguard: cutting a Bayou seems ok, you have no black cards in your maindeck. [edit: or maybe 12 green sources excluding Arbor is a bit low, anyone else has an opinion?] Two black duals have been enough for me lately, you can try it. I don't generally mind 61 cards in a gsz-deck, but increasing the land count by adding a land is probably not a good idea.

Magnaguard100
08-06-2017, 06:28 PM
@Magnaguard: cutting a Bayou seems ok, you have no black cards in your maindeck. [edit: or maybe 12 green sources excluding Arbor is a bit low, anyone else has an opinion?] Two black duals have been enough for me lately, you can try it. I don't generally mind 61 cards in a gsz-deck, but increasing the land count by adding a land is probably not a good idea.

K, thats what i was leaning towards. My only sideboard cards that are black are zealous persecution, thoughtseize and surgical, so going down to 7 black sources instead of 8 isnt awful

TMagpie
08-07-2017, 01:24 AM
What matchups are either Sanctum Prelate or Toxic Deluge not useful in?

Skizz
08-07-2017, 07:57 AM
What matchups are either Sanctum Prelate or Toxic Deluge not useful in?
difficult question^^:really:
you can bring prelate against all sorts of combo decks and deluge against decks with a high amount of creatures... :rolleyes:

Magnaguard100
08-07-2017, 10:03 AM
What matchups are either Sanctum Prelate or Toxic Deluge not useful in?

Sanctum prelate is a card i board in only a couple matchups where there game plan revolves around specific MPs. Vs lands/aggro loam, prelate on 2 is a straight beating, no loam, no p fire, no decay, its great. And then vs combo decks to stop win con, and against miracles name 1 or 6 depending on rest of the board state.

I personaly dont use deluge, but its great vs any creatue decks that explode aka elves, merfolk, goblins, things like that

Cpt-Qc
08-07-2017, 01:06 PM
Sanctum prelate is a card i board in only a couple matchups where there game plan revolves around specific MPs. Vs lands/aggro loam, prelate on 2 is a straight beating, no loam, no p fire, no decay, its great. And then vs combo decks to stop win con, and against miracles name 1 or 6 depending on rest of the board state.

I personaly dont use deluge, but its great vs any creatue decks that explode aka elves, merfolk, goblins, things like that

I play a 1of Deluge as it's a great "get out of jail for free" card. Any creature deck that thinks you have no board wipe will play all their threats as soon as they get them so this is a way to punish them. Think of Shardless BUG or Grixis control. They'll jam as many small creatures as fast as they can if they know you have no way to clear it and you'll never see the end of it.

And if they don't deploy all their threats because they are scared of a board wipe then you can take advantage of it because our creatures are often better than our opponent's 1for1. In short, don't expect it to win the game by itself but rather force the opponent to play slower.

Magnaguard100
08-07-2017, 03:51 PM
I play a 1of Deluge as it's a great "get out of jail for free" card. Any creature deck that thinks you have no board wipe will play all their threats as soon as they get them so this is a way to punish them. Think of Shardless BUG or Grixis control. They'll jam as many small creatures as fast as they can if they know you have no way to clear it and you'll never see the end of it.

And if they don't deploy all their threats because they are scared of a board wipe then you can take advantage of it because our creatures are often better than our opponent's 1for1. In short, don't expect it to win the game by itself but rather force the opponent to play slower.

Ive never been in a situation where casting deluge has been advantageous for me. Zealous is usually enough against the other creature based decks, and i generally dont like killing my own dudes

Magnaguard100
08-07-2017, 06:56 PM
So what does everyone think of the new miri they spoiled today? Seems pretty sweet at getting damage through, and makes elves not able to craterhoof you out of the game.

Stuart
08-07-2017, 09:00 PM
So what does everyone think of the new miri they spoiled today? Seems pretty sweet at getting damage through, and makes elves not able to craterhoof you out of the game.

First impression: seems like a solid sideboard bullet if your meta has lots of elves, DnT, etc. Of course, like every fucking green creature ever printed, not sure it passes the "is this a better GSZ target than Knight" or "do I have too many 3 CMC dudes" tests.

Megadeus
08-07-2017, 09:06 PM
Maybe it gets in as a SB GSZ bullet, but I'd rather have Thalia 2 personally

maharis
08-07-2017, 09:34 PM
Mirri isn't going to work out. You never want more than one and when you are zenithing for 4 to try to somewhat stop a swarm deck the next turn you have probably already lost.

Cpt-Qc
08-08-2017, 12:06 AM
So what does everyone think of the new miri they spoiled today? Seems pretty sweet at getting damage through, and makes elves not able to craterhoof you out of the game.

I'm not too keen on upping our number of legendaries but if I was even going to consider a 3drop Legendary bullet it would have to be Rhonas. The card is everything maverick wants: a 5/5 indestructible/deathtouch beater not reliant on the graveyard, mana sink for cradle, gives trample to kotr/more power to first striking thalia.

The new mirri is pretty much useless for maverick.

TMagpie
08-08-2017, 02:59 AM
I'm not too keen on upping our number of legendaries but if I was even going to consider a 3drop Legendary bullet it would have to be Rhonas. The card is everything maverick wants: a 5/5 indestructible/deathtouch beater not reliant on the graveyard, mana sink for cradle, gives trample to kotr/more power to first striking thalia.

The new mirri is pretty much useless for maverick.

I'm not the biggest fan of Cradle, hence why I don't run it myself. But damn you made that card sound sexy with your long hard stiff snake God example.

Cpt-Qc
08-08-2017, 03:03 AM
I'm not the biggest fan of Cradle, hence why I don't run it myself. But damn you made that card sound sexy with your long hard stiff snake God example.

Oh don't worry you're not alone, I turned myself on just writing this... almost makes me want to drop teeg from the main to fit one more snake in, then with excavator this basically becomes snakes tribal right?

Xod
08-08-2017, 03:27 AM
Trying to build a Zoo like build, but it leans more to Maverick than Zoo, what do you guys think:

4 Narnam Renegade
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun Zenith

2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland

1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Containment Priest
2 Fiery Justice
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Ramunap Excavator
3 Surgical Extraction

Based on the Zoo list that 5-0'ed on MTGO. Still very debatable. Going to test it this Friday. If this is not the place to discuss this, just ignore me. :rolleyes:

pettdan
08-08-2017, 03:56 AM
@Xod: I think it's being discussed here too:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31895-(Big)-Zoo

Skizz
08-08-2017, 06:03 AM
i like your idea of a zooish maverick!

ajani and huntmaster are cool cards and give you the power for mid/late game.
but i think they are often too expensive to cast - maybe add a gaeas cradle?
or you could try to do a 1/1 split of ajani and chandra ToD ?
what i would change here is to swap swords to plowshares with path to exile.
or instead of bolts add punishing fire engine

pettdan
08-08-2017, 07:15 AM
I found the old land discussion now, here are some links (for Magnaguard100, myself and anyone else interested). It's a shame we don't have a way to keep separate discussion threads within a deck's main thread. Maybe we could add page numbers for certain topics to the primer so people can find where discussions are being made instead of starting from zero every time. Searching for a card name results in too many hits.

We were discussing utility lands in January:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=986461&viewfull=1#post986461

And in early June Cradle vs Depths was discussed, I'll link my comment here but there is more discussion above it on the same page:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=1011433&viewfull=1#post1011433

I think an important thing to consider, when discussing Cradle vs Depths, is that you are actually comparing Cradle vs Depths + Stage, i.e. one card vs two cards. A more relevant comparison, or at least an easier comparison to make, is between Cradle with a 5-drop and Depths with Stage.

Edit: Ramunap Excavator probably changes the discussion a little bit.

Xod
08-08-2017, 08:06 AM
ajani and huntmaster are cool cards and give you the power for mid/late game.
but i think they are often too expensive to cast - maybe add a gaeas cradle?

We have 6 dorks (and rallier), GSZ to dorks, so it should be quite possible. Also, don't own a cradle. But might think about it.



or you could try to do a 1/1 split of ajani and chandra ToD ?

I think dat Ajani will be more of a controlling role (keeping creatures/lands tapped), also the double red is not very appealing.



what i would change here is to swap swords to plowshares with path to exile.

That's a good suggestion, against decks with to many basics, it diludes the LD plan. On the other hand, if they are fetching their basics to be save from wasteland, PtE will have no drawback. So good suggestion!



or instead of bolts add punishing fire engine
Again, don't own the PFire engine, and I prefere to use bolts than to go all out midrangy. Still want to keep the Zoo profile :-)


The only things I'm doubting about are to include in the main:
- SFM package, sounds good, but takes to much spots + I prefer Huntmaster :-) but can be good with rallier
- Snake Crucible Guy: going to test him in the side for the grindy games, maybe replace Tireless Tracker with him, but he's also a guy for grindy matchups
- Sylvan Library: with all the fetches + knights, this should be great, but what to cut?

the other addition is the Renegade Rallier, should always be able to create value. But against GY-hate/DRS decks, it might lose value. Another reason not to include crucible snake man main, to not overextend the GY reliance.
I think the main targets for Rallier will be:
- the 2/3 deathtouch guy (if rallier is active, so is the other renegade)
- QPM: reusability
- Wasteland
- Fetches or destroyed lands
- Hierarch: almost the same as an extra mana + exhalted

Of course, against a STP deck, this guy will lose a lot of targets. So that's why I only include 2.

Magnaguard100
08-08-2017, 10:48 AM
We have 6 dorks (and rallier), GSZ to dorks, so it should be quite possible. Also, don't own a cradle. But might think about it.


I think dat Ajani will be more of a controlling role (keeping creatures/lands tapped), also the double red is not very appealing.


That's a good suggestion, against decks with to many basics, it diludes the LD plan. On the other hand, if they are fetching their basics to be save from wasteland, PtE will have no drawback. So good suggestion!


Again, don't own the PFire engine, and I prefere to use bolts than to go all out midrangy. Still want to keep the Zoo profile :-)


The only things I'm doubting about are to include in the main:
- SFM package, sounds good, but takes to much spots + I prefer Huntmaster :-) but can be good with rallier
- Snake Crucible Guy: going to test him in the side for the grindy games, maybe replace Tireless Tracker with him, but he's also a guy for grindy matchups
- Sylvan Library: with all the fetches + knights, this should be great, but what to cut?

the other addition is the Renegade Rallier, should always be able to create value. But against GY-hate/DRS decks, it might lose value. Another reason not to include crucible snake man main, to not overextend the GY reliance.
I think the main targets for Rallier will be:
- the 2/3 deathtouch guy (if rallier is active, so is the other renegade)
- QPM: reusability
- Wasteland
- Fetches or destroyed lands
- Hierarch: almost the same as an extra mana + exhalted

Of course, against a STP deck, this guy will lose a lot of targets. So that's why I only include 2.

If you included library and sfm package rallier could bring back library, jitte,.and other fun things like that. I love him and he has been crucial in winning matchups by returning things that drs cant eat

TMagpie
08-09-2017, 01:53 PM
I'm really am surprised how good your guy's mana runs. I have 22 mana producing lands, 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 GSZ, 4 DRS, 1 Birds of Paradise and I can't afford to run more than four 3drops in the maindeck of my maverick lists.

Fatal
08-09-2017, 04:31 PM
Wroking on new version of Maverick, which will be reworked for today meta. It will have a lot of changes even in core, but the goals will remain the same - midrange, fair, creature toolbox deck which can be tune up for personal preferences and meta. I will also sum up last years of Maverick history. When I finish testing will post list and test results (from tournaments), after that Primer will be updated. Probably totally new thread since this one gets little too long, +400 pages in 6 years is a lot !

- Thank You ALL for feedback and great discussion !

Stay tuned.

Magnaguard100
08-09-2017, 08:03 PM
Wroking on new version of Maverick, which will be reworked for today meta. It will have a lot of changes even in core, but the goals will remain the same - midrange, fair, creature toolbox deck which can be tune up for personal preferences and meta. I will also sum up last years of Maverick history. When I finish testing will post list and test results (from tournaments), after that Primer will be updated. Probably totally new thread since this one gets little too long, +400 pages in 6 years is a lot !

- Thank You ALL for feedback and great discussion !

Stay tuned.

Huzzah. Im a big fan of this

Rascalyote
08-09-2017, 08:15 PM
Oh don't worry you're not alone, I turned myself on just writing this... almost makes me want to drop teeg from the main to fit one more snake in, then with excavator this basically becomes snakes tribal right?

Excavator isn't a snake, biggest travesty 2017

Note on the list a bit ago -just be careful with your manabase, you cut a mana producing land for a ghost quarter, a maze of ith and now a cradle.

Cpt-Qc
08-09-2017, 10:14 PM
Excavator isn't a snake, biggest travesty 2017

They're all SNEK to me :confused: Are mermaids womans?


[...] , after that Primer will be updated. Probably totally new thread since this one gets little too long, +400 pages in 6 years is a lot ! .

That seems adequate as the deckbuilding options have changed quite a lot and, since we just had a big meta change, it's unlikely there would be such a good opportunity to restart in the near future.

Fatal
08-10-2017, 12:13 PM
I would like to make new Primer more structural then any other, since we have a lot of material (history, tested cards, a lot of discussion) I propose module build, and each module will have separate autor, which will write and update his part so we will have up-to-date Primer, I don't have so many time to write everything properly alone, which would be high quality.

Let me introduce proposition of ToC:



1. Introduction:
- Goals
- Genesis
- Overlay history
- Why would you play Maverick
- Modules (space and balance between core/other packages)

2.Modules in Build

2.1. Core (I will admin this part):
Mana dorks, Knights, GSZ, difference between mana dorks types, possible splashes how to get proper set, what changes in core and how to get proper line of play with GSZ.

2.2 Silverbullets - all utility creatures which are 1-of (looking for volunteer):
Each utility create have their aim vs proper situation or deck

2.3 Stoneforge Mystic package (looking for volunteer):
a lot of discussion was about swords, skull and jitte, which on which meta/decks how many SFM to each equip set

2.4 Removal in splashes and pure GW (Megadeus):
not easy topic specially nowadays when TNN, Chalice of the Void decks, and flipped cards have cost, how to deal with Infect or Mentors

2.5. Utility lands and manabase (looking for volunteer):
In context of new cards like Ramunap and meta

2.6. Card Advantage and late game cards (I will admin this part since I think I found good solutions, anyway - in new topic every comment will be wanted)

2.7. Protection creatures (I will admin this part also).

3. Matchup changes good and bad side of deck in today Meta
(will describe it)

4. Sideboard (for each splash separate)

Each section need for tools describe on each deck in today meta and example sideboard.

4.1 GW Pure Maverick - (looking for volunteer)

4.2 GWb Dark Maverick (will take it)

4.3 GWr Punishing Maverick - ( menloe, Meritt )

5. Bad cards already tested in Maverick which doesn't fit.

menloe
08-10-2017, 12:15 PM
Wroking on new version of Maverick, which will be reworked for today meta. It will have a lot of changes even in core, but the goals will remain the same - midrange, fair, creature toolbox deck which can be tune up for personal preferences and meta. I will also sum up last years of Maverick history. When I finish testing will post list and test results (from tournaments), after that Primer will be updated. Probably totally new thread since this one gets little too long, +400 pages in 6 years is a lot !

- Thank You ALL for feedback and great discussion !

Stay tuned.

Also excited about this. There are a couple of us who still play a fair amount of Punishing Maverick. Not sure if you want input on that, but I'd be happy to help direct you to the competent players I know. That would exclude me because I am bad.

menloe
08-10-2017, 12:22 PM
4.3 GWr Punishing Maverick - (looking for volunteer)


Just beat me to it lol

Megadeus
08-10-2017, 01:04 PM
I'll write up the various removal portion if you'd like

pettdan
08-11-2017, 04:45 AM
Much needed, nice initiative Fatal! I'd love to help out, still I need to focus on work for the next 7-8 weeks. I'll try to write a bit on the lands area if I find time, since I was just discussing it recently anyway. But feel free anyone who can make a more active effort to do so.

TMagpie
08-11-2017, 12:26 PM
When you say "GW Maverick" are you talking specifically about Noble based Maverick focused on using exalted triggers to gain edges in tempo and combat? (These often used 2-3 Pridemages to pump up the exalted counts)

Or do you mean something different?

Magnaguard100
08-12-2017, 01:58 AM
When you say "GW Maverick" are you talking specifically about Noble based Maverick focused on using exalted triggers to gain edges in tempo and combat? (These often used 2-3 Pridemages to pump up the exalted counts)

Or do you mean something different?

I believe so. 4 nobles and 2ish pridemages for 6 exalted triggers means thalia hits for a ton. Also with this build do you run more than 2 sfm for batterskull and such?

Xod
08-12-2017, 06:58 AM
Went 3 wins and a draw with the list I posted on the previous page, replacing the STP's with path to exiles.

Won against TES, Goblins and White Eldrazi. Drew against Miracles.

Magnaguard100
08-12-2017, 01:25 PM
Random question. If we were to run a mainboard planeswalker/ 5 drop. What would people recommend? Sigarda, garruk relentless, or elspeth knight errant? This is assuming you are running cradle. Which would you pick and why?

Secretly.A.Bee
08-12-2017, 05:02 PM
I'd run sigarda main, garruk on the side and swap as necessary for the matchups where the other is relevant.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Magnaguard100
08-12-2017, 06:22 PM
I'd run sigarda main, garruk on the side and swap as necessary for the matchups where the other is relevant.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Can you post your list?

Secretly.A.Bee
08-12-2017, 08:07 PM
No, I don't currently have this put together, I was simply applying my knowledge of the two cards I've gathered from playing The Rock, BUG and Nic Fit to apply to your scenario. Hope it helps.

Cheers.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Xod
08-13-2017, 07:30 AM
Forgot to mention, in the 3-0-1 streak, Ajani ALWAYS carried it home. Don't underestimate the control elements of this card.

Fatal
08-13-2017, 08:33 AM
When you say "GW Maverick" are you talking specifically about Noble based Maverick focused on using exalted triggers to gain edges in tempo and combat? (These often used 2-3 Pridemages to pump up the exalted counts)

Or do you mean something different?

Yes with Noble Hierarchs and min 2 Pridemages, I also saw Mix with Shaman's.

For me GW Maverick is Maverick without splash, with more stable manabase, which can easy use more utility lands.

NEELEY
08-15-2017, 09:06 AM
I would like to make new Primer more structural then any other, since we have a lot of material (history, tested cards, a lot of discussion) I propose module build, and each module will have separate autor, which will write and update his part so we will have up-to-date Primer, I don't have so many time to write everything properly alone, which would be high quality.

I don't consider myself a writer so I won't volonteer for a section, but feel free to message me with any questions you may have. I still play maverick quite often and can give my opinion on whatever you may need.

TMagpie
08-15-2017, 01:12 PM
Yes with Noble Hierarchs and min 2 Pridemages, I also saw Mix with Shaman's.

For me GW Maverick is Maverick without splash, with more stable manabase, which can easy use more utility lands.

It's been years since I played that version--but it's definitely a lot faster and a lot more brutish than Abzan Maverick. It's also where I started using Orim's Chant; fantastic card to use when you don't have access to Thoughtseize. Mirran Crusader able to swing for 8 damage a turn starting on turn 3 was also a big plus.

NEELEY
08-16-2017, 09:00 AM
Played 2 leagues with this list

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/731666#paper

5-0 and 3-2. Only losing to 2 storm decks, but also beating it 2 times as well. Sylvan safekeeper was great and it gave me a good option to gsz on 1 instead of just getting a mana dork. Choke was good and I think we may need to beat grixis control and 4 color control

DoomRabbit
08-16-2017, 09:30 AM
Played 2 leagues with this list

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/731666#paper

5-0 and 3-2. Only losing to 2 storm decks, but also beating it 2 times as well. Sylvan safekeeper was great and it gave me a good option to gsz on 1 instead of just getting a mana dork. Choke was good and I think we may need to beat grixis control and 4 color control

That is a really traditional list! No need/want to play with new toys? --> Excavator mostly

NEELEY
08-16-2017, 09:47 AM
That is a really traditional list! No need/want to play with new toys? --> Excavator mostly

My list is "traditional". It's also consistent, I don't feel a need to play another creature that does nothing against most decks you have a problem with. This deck is built to get KOTR when you are looking to gsz for more than 2. If you wanna have fun and try new things then that's fine. I feel like the people playing a bunch of non traditional lands and creatures lose a lot of consistentency and therefore lose more games then normal. I would hate to have DD, bog, stage in my opening hands.

Fatal
08-16-2017, 10:02 AM
I think best will be try and test new toys then stabilize.

For example I have quite similar list with Neeley, but some changes gives a difference and edge over:
- SoLaS is a meta slot - I use here Sigarda since have a lot of BUG around
- Sylvan Safekeeper vs Mother of Runes - test 2 x Sylvan Safekeeper and no MoR (yea quite revolutionary will describe this more in primer)
- Excavator as additional new routes so you never out of lands
- Renagade Railler as second Qasali is really worth, gives you many options

Agreed about too many utility lands - that's why I will try to describe Lands core and free slots for utility lands like Cradle, Bog, DD and TS, Maze etc.
Actually I have only 3 utility lands except core: Gaea's Cradle, and Ghost Quarter, Horizon Canopy, with one on SB (Bojuka Bog).

JamesFlipside
08-17-2017, 09:57 AM
Planning on playing the following at a Win a Mox Saturday. Not sure if I'm gonna play the teeg main or not, may end up swapping the SoLaS main for it. Haven't played the deck since Top got banned so I'm unsure on how much I need Teeg main.
Maverick:



Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/8abb19a3-b1b6-4247-9891-2d9fa3876ead

How have you found Ramunap?
Been trying him myself and can't say I'm overwhelmed...

Megadeus
08-17-2017, 10:49 AM
How have you found Ramunap?
Been trying him myself and can't say I'm overwhelmed...

I think I may have green sunned for it once? I think in a build with canopy it's probably at its best. I haven't played with it in maverick enough though to really determine if it's better than a lot of stuff

Fatal
08-17-2017, 04:59 PM
Tested Ramunap in about 100 competitive games so time to sum up impression:

Running manabase:
1 Ghost Quarter,
1 Horizon Canopy,
4 Wastelands,
1 Gaea's Cradle,
1 Dryad Arbor,
8 fetchlands (4 heath, 2 catacombs, 2 flats),
2 Savannah,
1 Bayou,
1 Scrubland,
1 Karakas
2 Forest
1 Plains

only 1 Ramunap.

Matchups from testing:
- Lands - I see big improvement here - before needed to play carefully with wasteland, now it's abyssal match for them
- BUG Shardless - easy strategy now can handle on long range, removal for shaman, thalia then, KotR and waste to the end now extends to recursive waste
- Miracles (the new one with Portent) - little improvement since it's good creature to gain CA with canopy, Ghost Quarter plan vs Plains not working in mid-game, on late better GSZ for Sylvan Safekeeper & Tracker.
- UWR stoneblade with 4 x TNN - loses one game since opponent had basics (sic !), so Ghost Quarter plan is not always that good, G2&G3 didn't made this mistake, not really improvement here.
- BUG Tempo - didn't change anything in this MU
- Combo (any) - didn't change
- D&T - won me twice a game when I pick up Cradle :-).

So overlay yes it works, specially if opponent require a lot of mana and running a lot of nonbasics, I had moments when had only GSZ for him to pick up wasteland to gain insta value. Actually have 2 options to pick up already used wasteland from gy - Railler and Ramunap. Ramunap is better since it can gain value constants, Railler on the other hand is great to pick Thalia (from my statistics she is the most time the target).

I was thinking about second one - but I'm afraid of too much graveyard dependent so actually not yet, I also don't wont to break my perfect mana curve (only real slot for would be for 3rd stoneforge mystic).

Btw I was still thinking what would be better creature then Stoneforge Mystic in cmc 2 slot can't find good value creature for him. Already tried Fauna Shaman (was not bad, but not brilliant), tested also Dark Confidant but it wasn't good. need instant value best would be etb trigger.

Have in CMC=2: 4 thalia, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 3 Stoneforge Mystic, (1 jitte, Sofi and solas sb), 1 sylvan library.

Was even thinking on Plaguebearer, Oath of Ghouls, Oversold Cemetery but they are rather just cute in edh, then in fast competitive play.

TMagpie
08-17-2017, 06:51 PM
Tested Ramunap in about 100 competitive games so time to sum up impression:

Running manabase:
1 Ghost Quarter,
1 Horizon Canopy,
4 Wastelands,
1 Gaea's Cradle,
1 Dryad Arbor,
8 fetchlands (4 heath, 2 catacombs, 2 flats),
2 Savannah,
1 Bayou,
1 Scrubland,
1 Karakas
2 Forest
1 Plains

only 1 Ramunap.

Matchups from testing:
- Lands - I see big improvement here - before needed to play carefully with wasteland, now it's abyssal match for them
- BUG Shardless - easy strategy now can handle on long range, removal for shaman, thalia then, KotR and waste to the end now extends to recursive waste
- Miracles (the new one with Portent) - little improvement since it's good creature to gain CA with canopy, Ghost Quarter plan vs Plains not working in mid-game, on late better GSZ for Sylvan Safekeeper & Tracker.
- UWR stoneblade with 4 x TNN - loses one game since opponent had basics (sic !), so Ghost Quarter plan is not always that good, G2&G3 didn't made this mistake, not really improvement here.
- BUG Tempo - didn't change anything in this MU
- Combo (any) - didn't change
- D&T - won me twice a game when I pick up Cradle :-).

So overlay yes it works, specially if opponent require a lot of mana and running a lot of nonbasics, I had moments when had only GSZ for him to pick up wasteland to gain insta value. Actually have 2 options to pick up already used wasteland from gy - Railler and Ramunap. Ramunap is better since it can gain value constants, Railler on the other hand is great to pick Thalia (from my statistics she is the most time the target).

I was thinking about second one - but I'm afraid of too much graveyard dependent so actually not yet, I also don't wont to break my perfect mana curve (only real slot for would be for 3rd stoneforge mystic).

Btw I was still thinking what would be better creature then Stoneforge Mystic in cmc 2 slot can't find good value creature for him. Already tried Fauna Shaman (was not bad, but not brilliant), tested also Dark Confidant but it wasn't good. need instant value best would be etb trigger.

Have in CMC=2: 4 thalia, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 3 Stoneforge Mystic, (1 jitte, Sofi and solas sb), 1 sylvan library.

Was even thinking on Plaguebearer, Oath of Ghouls, Oversold Cemetery but they are rather just cute in edh, then in fast competitive play.

Is there a reason you don't just run a 2nd Pridemage? What about Revoker?

Magnaguard100
08-18-2017, 09:51 AM
Is there a reason you don't just run a 2nd Pridemage? What about Revoker?

Or scryb ranger if you arent already running him. Second pridemage is better than revoker. You cant tutor for revoker, and he doesnt have an activated ability so not super relavent

Magnaguard100
08-18-2017, 09:56 AM
Tested Ramunap in about 100 competitive games so time to sum up impression:

Running manabase:
1 Ghost Quarter,
1 Horizon Canopy,
4 Wastelands,
1 Gaea's Cradle,
1 Dryad Arbor,
8 fetchlands (4 heath, 2 catacombs, 2 flats),
2 Savannah,
1 Bayou,
1 Scrubland,
1 Karakas
2 Forest
1 Plains

only 1 Ramunap.

Matchups from testing:
- Lands - I see big improvement here - before needed to play carefully with wasteland, now it's abyssal match for them
- BUG Shardless - easy strategy now can handle on long range, removal for shaman, thalia then, KotR and waste to the end now extends to recursive waste
- Miracles (the new one with Portent) - little improvement since it's good creature to gain CA with canopy, Ghost Quarter plan vs Plains not working in mid-game, on late better GSZ for Sylvan Safekeeper & Tracker.
- UWR stoneblade with 4 x TNN - loses one game since opponent had basics (sic !), so Ghost Quarter plan is not always that good, G2&G3 didn't made this mistake, not really improvement here.
- BUG Tempo - didn't change anything in this MU
- Combo (any) - didn't change
- D&T - won me twice a game when I pick up Cradle :-).

So overlay yes it works, specially if opponent require a lot of mana and running a lot of nonbasics, I had moments when had only GSZ for him to pick up wasteland to gain insta value. Actually have 2 options to pick up already used wasteland from gy - Railler and Ramunap. Ramunap is better since it can gain value constants, Railler on the other hand is great to pick Thalia (from my statistics she is the most time the target).

I was thinking about second one - but I'm afraid of too much graveyard dependent so actually not yet, I also don't wont to break my perfect mana curve (only real slot for would be for 3rd stoneforge mystic).

Btw I was still thinking what would be better creature then Stoneforge Mystic in cmc 2 slot can't find good value creature for him. Already tried Fauna Shaman (was not bad, but not brilliant), tested also Dark Confidant but it wasn't good. need instant value best would be etb trigger.

Have in CMC=2: 4 thalia, 1 Qasali Pridemage, 3 Stoneforge Mystic, (1 jitte, Sofi and solas sb), 1 sylvan library.

Was even thinking on Plaguebearer, Oath of Ghouls, Oversold Cemetery but they are rather just cute in edh, then in fast competitive play.

Thats pretty much my consensus. Rebuying canopy every turn helps out vs grindy matchups a lot, and buying back wasteland vs non basics is great. Yesterday i played vs grixis delver and was able to waste him every turn until he couldnt do anything and my giant knight is better than his TNN. Vs 4 color loam it was the same. Other than walkers, whoever had excavator out first won just because reccuring specific lands is reall crucial. Cant veat p fire if he constantly gets his groves back into play

Warden
08-18-2017, 01:32 PM
Haven't played in a long while. Very tempted to build an updated Viciano Vial-based list with Excavator. Nobody respects vial until it shits all over them. But because Excavator himself is green, I have yet another bullet for Zenith. Looking at what's floating in the top 8 globally is neutral to Maverick doing well. Delver decks continue to exist but top-based Miracles is gone. Maybe I just hedge my deck against Lands, TNN, and Sneak/Reanimator cheat-big-things-into-play archetypes.

The more recent pages of this thread had some interesting notes but my main question isn't necessarily being addressed.
Why are folks only running 1 Excavator? Is 2 in the 60 too much? Does this guy durdle around without protection? I see how he is good when all the conditional pieces are assembled (board-state for him to shine, GY has wastes and fetches/canopy, opponent vulnerable to LD) but want to know what he actually does in an average game. He has sick synergy with Tracker as well.

Magnaguard100
08-18-2017, 02:10 PM
Haven't played in a long while. Very tempted to build an updated Viciano Vial-based list with Excavator. Nobody respects vial until it shits all over them. But because Excavator himself is green, I have yet another bullet for Zenith. Looking at what's floating in the top 8 globally is neutral to Maverick doing well. Delver decks continue to exist but top-based Miracles is gone. Maybe I just hedge my deck against Lands, TNN, and Sneak/Reanimator cheat-big-things-into-play archetypes.

The more recent pages of this thread had some interesting notes but my main question isn't necessarily being addressed.
Why are folks only running 1 Excavator? Is 2 in the 60 too much? Does this guy durdle around without protection? I see how he is good when all the conditional pieces are assembled (board-state for him to shine, GY has wastes and fetches/canopy, opponent vulnerable to LD) but want to know what he actually does in an average game. He has sick synergy with Tracker as well.

The main reason for only 1 is we can still only play 1 land a turn. He is a zenithable target for when having another knight doesnt advance your board state, but locking them out of more lands, drawing extra cards. Buying back cradle/ karakas is more relavent. Everytime my excavator died he already did his job and getting another one was not necessary

TMagpie
08-18-2017, 11:24 PM
Haven't played in a long while. Very tempted to build an updated Viciano Vial-based list with Excavator. Nobody respects vial until it shits all over them. But because Excavator himself is green, I have yet another bullet for Zenith. Looking at what's floating in the top 8 globally is neutral to Maverick doing well. Delver decks continue to exist but top-based Miracles is gone. Maybe I just hedge my deck against Lands, TNN, and Sneak/Reanimator cheat-big-things-into-play archetypes.

The more recent pages of this thread had some interesting notes but my main question isn't necessarily being addressed.
Why are folks only running 1 Excavator? Is 2 in the 60 too much? Does this guy durdle around without protection? I see how he is good when all the conditional pieces are assembled (board-state for him to shine, GY has wastes and fetches/canopy, opponent vulnerable to LD) but want to know what he actually does in an average game. He has sick synergy with Tracker as well.

Initial testing started with 1 because of space (I don't like running more than four 3drops normally), after testing I found I only really wanted him in the mid/late game where I'd actually be able to use it for something other than replaying fetchlands.

I'm not against running more than 1, and in some matches having a 2nd in case of removal is relevant. But I just haven't "needed" it.

Megadeus
08-18-2017, 11:42 PM
Excavator is really sick against lands. I love him there. I generally beat lands anyway, but this guy has made it so the matches aren't close

Fatal
08-19-2017, 10:46 AM
Or scryb ranger if you arent already running him. Second pridemage is better than revoker. You cant tutor for revoker, and he doesnt have an activated ability so not super relavent

Already running Scryb Ranger (it's very good, bring a lot of value). I don't run second pridemage since I can bring it back with Railler, and watchdog isn't best creature in some matchups.


The main reason for only 1 is we can still only play 1 land a turn. He is a zenithable target for when having another knight doesnt advance your board state, but locking them out of more lands, drawing extra cards. Buying back cradle/ karakas is more relavent. Everytime my excavator died he already did his job and getting another one was not necessary

That is the point. It bring instant value, even if dies. Having more then one can be abyssal if you met graveyard hate, diversity and agility is a goal. If opponent side graveyard hate he wouldn't have enough removal/artifact removal to deal with other threads. 1-of is enough, drawing second one wouldn't bring any value on boardstate.

TMagpie
08-19-2017, 11:34 AM
Already running Scryb Ranger (it's very good, bring a lot of value). I don't run second pridemage since I can bring it back with Railler, and watchdog isn't best creature in some matchups.



That is the point. It bring instant value, even if dies. Having more then one can be abyssal if you met graveyard hate, diversity and agility is a goal. If opponent side graveyard hate he wouldn't have enough removal/artifact removal to deal with other threads. 1-of is enough, drawing second one wouldn't bring any value on boardstate.

On Pridemage: Exalted is more than just watchwolf; the reason Pridemage is often the only silver bullet in multiples in the maindeck for many lists comes from the fact that it has many uses outside of disenchant. Even the fact that it can give you more ways to trigger revolt is an interesting plus. But I also get your point about wanting to maximize your rallier to give it relevance--hence why I also suggested Phyrexian Revoker, who does multiple things that Pridemage doesn't do and even provide colorless damage in Mom wars.

On Excavator: Much agreed with you on that--but I just wanted to clarify that sometimes having 2x copies in the 75 (1 main 1 side) is something I have been very fond of for my silver bullets that are especially powerful or useful (usually Scooze or Teeg), but I usually save those slots for silver bullets that are essential for some matchups that I often need to recast due to removal brought it for the cards. Albeit--I just don't see Excavator holding that same level of criticalness as say a 2nd Teeg vs storm.

Fatal
08-19-2017, 12:18 PM
On Pridemage: Exalted is more than just watchwolf; the reason Pridemage is often the only silver bullet in multiples in the maindeck for many lists comes from the fact that it has many uses outside of disenchant. Even the fact that it can give you more ways to trigger revolt is an interesting plus. But I also get your point about wanting to maximize your rallier to give it relevance--hence why I also suggested Phyrexian Revoker, who does multiple things that Pridemage doesn't do and even provide colorless damage in Mom wars.

On Excavator: Much agreed with you on that--but I just wanted to clarify that sometimes having 2x copies in the 75 (1 main 1 side) is something I have been very fond of for my silver bullets that are especially powerful or useful (usually Scooze or Teeg), but I usually save those slots for silver bullets that are essential for some matchups that I often need to recast due to removal brought it for the cards. Albeit--I just don't see Excavator holding that same level of criticalness as say a 2nd Teeg vs storm.

You probably right about 2nd Excavator since it almost always bring value due to picking up fetchland or any other lands. More then 100 games are needed to prove it, does the proper count number is 1 or 2 MD.

Interesting list: http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1179 looks like someone overextend the Ramunap value :-).

Cpt-Qc
08-19-2017, 05:35 PM
hence why I also suggested Phyrexian Revoker, who does multiple things that Pridemage doesn't do and even provide colorless damage in Mom wars.

Just imagine what we could do if there was a green revoker !!! I'm just daydreaming at work but still....

Magnaguard100
08-19-2017, 08:09 PM
Just imagine what we could do if there was a green revoker !!! I'm just daydreaming at work but still....

They will eventually make more super utility creatures for us to use. Its just a matter of time. Gsz becomes exponentially better as new sets come out

Cpt-Qc
08-19-2017, 09:58 PM
They will eventually make more super utility creatures for us to use. Its just a matter of time. Gsz becomes exponentially better as new sets come out

That's why I love toolbox decks so much. All my decks (aggro, combo and control) are of that kind.

TMagpie
08-20-2017, 12:25 PM
Just imagine what we could do if there was a green revoker !!! I'm just daydreaming at work but still....

Still waiting for a green Serra Avenger

Cpt-Qc
08-20-2017, 02:49 PM
Still waiting for a green Serra Avenger

Heh, this is probably never happening as flying shall always be our weak spot. Best we could hope for is a 3/3 Lifelink and/or Trample ...

Secretly.A.Bee
08-20-2017, 06:00 PM
3/3 Reach...

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Cpt-Qc
08-20-2017, 07:14 PM
I hate to say this but Reach isn't cool enough to play with us. There I'm the bad guy now.

Magnaguard100
08-20-2017, 08:14 PM
3/3 Reach...

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

3/3, for 2 green with vigalance, trample, and pro blue. Now we are talking a creature with no activated abilities that maverick could run

Cpt-Qc
08-20-2017, 08:15 PM
3/3, for 2 green with vigalance, trample, and pro blue. Now we are talking a creature with no activated abilities that maverick could run

Still much worse than Leovold :P

TMagpie
08-20-2017, 08:25 PM
Still much worse than Leovold :P

I am fairly meh on the whole Leavold discussion.

Magnaguard100
08-20-2017, 10:54 PM
Played in a deul for duals event. Went 3-1-1, split top for and got a bunch of goodies with store credit. Overall was a good experiance even though i had some pretty tough matchups. Played grixis tezzerator, infect, charbelcher, and eldrazi tron. Only lost to infect because turn 2/3 kill with hexproof/ countermagic is not something i can beat. Excavator was crucial in wasteland locking the eldazi and tezzerator player, though ghost quarter did not seem as relavent. Im probably going to cut it for another basic. Other than that im pretty happy with my list. This is what i ran

4 deathrite shaman
4 mother of runes
1 birds of paradise
4 thalia
2 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddoc teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 scavenging ooze
1 renegade rallier
1 ramunap excavator
4 knight of the reliquary
1 sigarda

4 gsz
4 swords
1 library
1 sofi
1 jitte

4 windswept
3 verdant
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
1 gaeas cradle

Sideboard

2 ethersworn canonist
1 sanctum prelate
1 reclamation sage
2 thoughtseize
2 surgical extraction
1 blessed alliance
2 zealous persecution
1 pithing needle
1 garruk relentless
1 choke
1 engineered plague

Cpt-Qc
08-20-2017, 10:55 PM
I am fairly meh on the whole Leavold discussion.

Do you not like him? I don't think he's great in maverick since we're choked on 3 drops but in general it's one hell of a card.

If I did play him tho it would have to be in the sideboard most likely.

Megadeus
08-20-2017, 11:07 PM
Has anyone tried out the new Mirri? I need to pick one up, but I think it's a very solid SB Silver bullet

Cpt-Qc
08-20-2017, 11:15 PM
We discussed it earlier but I think the general consensus is she's bad.

Even if you like her abilities (which I do not), you need her to attack to prevent creatures from attacking you so she's slow to "activate".

Megadeus
08-20-2017, 11:39 PM
We discussed it earlier but I think the general consensus is she's bad.

Even if you like her abilities (which I do not), you need her to attack to prevent creatures from attacking you so she's slow to "activate".

This is true. The earlier you get her online, the better she is, but that requires running more copies of her which probably isn't that good. All in all probably just another decent 3 drop where the options feel almost limitless at this point.

specialagentcooper
08-21-2017, 10:55 AM
Lands (23)

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Gaeas Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (25)

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator

Spells (12)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard(15)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict

I played in a win a dual over the weekend and walked away with a Bayou after losing in the finals to Eldrazi . The deck felt great and was super consistent, I was between playing Bant Stoneblade and Maverick and the deck didnít let me down. MVP for the day was Scryb Ranger, that card is nuts in this deck. So many people missed tricks with it.

Only changes to the ďstockĒ list was trying a 1 of Crucible Snake and took out one Mom for a Safekeeper, since it plays nicely with the Snake, and itís always nice to have another gsz target. The Snake was always good, never great, I was always gszing for a Knight before the snake though. Only comment on it was that I always felt like I should be playing it on T4 so I could get immediate value from it. Not sure that the safekeeper is better than the 4th Mom, didn't get to play with him much.

Matchups were:
R1 UWR Landstill (2-0), R2 Burn(1-2), R3 UWR Landstill(2-0), R4 Grixis Delver(2-1), R5 Jund(ID).

Top 8 - D&T (2-1), Semis - RG Lands (2-1), Finals - Eldrazi (0-2)

TMagpie
08-21-2017, 11:11 AM
Do you not like him? I don't think he's great in maverick since we're choked on 3 drops but in general it's one hell of a card.

If I did play him tho it would have to be in the sideboard most likely.

With so many Zenith targets at the 3cc slot it feels difficult to justify adding a 4th color for a mere value card.

TMagpie
08-21-2017, 04:12 PM
Lands (23)

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Gaeas Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (25)

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ramunap Excavator

Spells (12)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard(15)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict

I played in a win a dual over the weekend and walked away with a Bayou after losing in the finals to Eldrazi . The deck felt great and was super consistent, I was between playing Bant Stoneblade and Maverick and the deck didnít let me down. MVP for the day was Scryb Ranger, that card is nuts in this deck. So many people missed tricks with it.

Only changes to the ďstockĒ list was trying a 1 of Crucible Snake and took out one Mom for a Safekeeper, since it plays nicely with the Snake, and itís always nice to have another gsz target. The Snake was always good, never great, I was always gszing for a Knight before the snake though. Only comment on it was that I always felt like I should be playing it on T4 so I could get immediate value from it. Not sure that the safekeeper is better than the 4th Mom, didn't get to play with him much.

Matchups were:
R1 UWR Landstill (2-0), R2 Burn(1-2), R3 UWR Landstill(2-0), R4 Grixis Delver(2-1), R5 Jund(ID).

Top 8 - D&T (2-1), Semis - RG Lands (2-1), Finals - Eldrazi (0-2)

Grats man!

I am curious how Safekeeper performs moving forward.

pettdan
08-21-2017, 04:21 PM
With so many Zenith targets at the 3cc slot it feels difficult to justify adding a 4th color for a mere value card.

It's definitely hard to justify a fourth color, but he's not just a value card, he's also a [edit: assymetrical] Chains of Mephistofeles that Mother protects and with a relevant-sized body. I still want to put him back in, played him a year ago just after being released, but still hard..

TMagpie
08-21-2017, 04:51 PM
It's definitely hard to justify a fourth color, but he's not just a value card, he's also a [edit: assymetrical] Chains of Mephistofeles that Mother protects and with a relevant-sized body. I still want to put him back in, played him a year ago just after being released, but still hard..

But that's just what I mean. For 4 mana we can Green Sun for a way to turn off cantrips, or we could search for Knight and end the game. Sometimes Leo will be the better choice--but will it be often enough to justify a 4th color?

Devils Advocate: Just because a 4th color is hard to add is not a reason not to add it. If Leovold allows us to use cards like flusterstorm/mindbreak trap vs storm more easily, or if it allows us to run soft permission like Spell Pierce against combo decks, it might be worth it. And it's possible, assuming splashing blue is fruitful, that Leovold is the keystone that the deck has been needing to allow that transition.

pettdan
08-21-2017, 05:07 PM
Yes, I've been fidgetting with Flusterstorm and Trap too, and Back to Basics, but I need to try again, never felt that I made a good list. Seems like being able to add such powerful cards should be a possible improvement of the deck in certain matchups.

JackaBo
08-21-2017, 06:11 PM
It's definitely hard to justify a fourth color, but he's not just a value card, he's also a [edit: assymetrical] Chains of Mephistofeles that Mother protects and with a relevant-sized body. I still want to put him back in, played him a year ago just after being released, but still hard..

Yeah, feels like people underestimate him. You will know Leovolds merits if you've played a 8+ cantrip deck against him. He's a lockpiece. A lockpiece that punishes opponents lockpieces.

TMagpie
08-22-2017, 03:27 AM
Yeah, feels like people underestimate him. You will know Leovolds merits if you've played a 8+ cantrip deck against him. He's a lockpiece. A lockpiece that punishes opponents lockpieces.

That's the thing right? Turning off cantrips on turn 2 is super strong, turning off cantrips on 4-5 less so. Turning off cantrips is decent against some decks, while storm just says "whatever" and kills you as you draw 10-15 cards.

Its definitely strong, but I wouldn't splash it willy nilly without a very thorough overhaul of the mana.

JackaBo
08-22-2017, 09:21 AM
That's the thing right? Turning off cantrips on turn 2 is super strong, turning off cantrips on 4-5 less so. Turning off cantrips is decent against some decks, while storm just says "whatever" and kills you as you draw 10-15 cards.

Its definitely strong, but I wouldn't splash it willy nilly without a very thorough overhaul of the mana.

Of course it's stronger turn two than four. Versus a grindy blue deck the lategame cantrips are very valuable, as they find both answers and threats.

Sure it can be dead sometimes, but against storm in particular, around 50 cards in an average maverick deck is dead, so there's that.

I give you that warping the mana base might not be worth it and that naturally cast Leo is better than green sun zenithed Leo.

TMagpie
08-22-2017, 10:59 AM
Of course it's stronger turn two than four. Versus a grindy blue deck the lategame cantrips are very valuable, as they find both answers and threats.

Sure it can be dead sometimes, but against storm in particular, around 50 cards in an average maverick deck is dead, so there's that.

I give you that warping the mana base might not be worth it and that naturally cast Leo is better than green sun zenithed Leo.

For full context; I like Leo, I just want to be careful with splashes. We have LOTS of 3drops that do awesome things in a wide range of matchups. Arguing to add a color requires for us to cross out the 3drops that don't need the color splash as being too weak, so much so that we have to change our mana base for a Zenith target. For all I know, Leo is worth it. But I have just been unwilling to bring it to a weekend/big event.

Magnaguard100
08-22-2017, 05:11 PM
For full context; I like Leo, I just want to be careful with splashes. We have LOTS of 3drops that do awesome things in a wide range of matchups. Arguing to add a color requires for us to cross out the 3drops that don't need the color splash as being too weak, so much so that we have to change our mana base for a Zenith target. For all I know, Leo is worth it. But I have just been unwilling to bring it to a weekend/big event.

Ive played him in several small events at lgs, and he has been really powerful at times, other times he has been not as useful as i usually gsz for a knight, and if hes in hand, its a lot harder to cast if you have battling deathrites, also since i run no mainboard black cards, it becomes more straining on fetches

Magnaguard100
08-25-2017, 02:46 PM
Im going to be running this list on sunday for the quest for power, and was wondering if you guys had any suggestions.



This is my current list im running, and wanted to know if you guys had any suggestions.

4 deathrite shaman
4 mother of runes
1 birds of paradise
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 stoneforge mystic
1 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 scavenging ooze
4 knight of the reliquary
1 ramunap excavator
1 sigarda, host of herons

4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 sylvan library
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

4 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
2 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy
1 gaeas cradle

Sideboard

3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 zealous persecution
2 ethersworn canonist
2 choke
1 reclamation sage
1 gaddoc teeg
1 abrupt decay
1 blessed alliance

Sigarda is great but costs a bunch of mana. Considering replacing her with either garruk relentless or renegade rallier

Fatal
08-25-2017, 03:01 PM
Im going to be running this list on sunday for the quest for power, and was wondering if you guys had any suggestions.



This is my current list im running, and wanted to know if you guys had any suggestions.

4 deathrite shaman
4 mother of runes
1 birds of paradise
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 stoneforge mystic
1 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 scavenging ooze
4 knight of the reliquary
1 ramunap excavator
1 sigarda, host of herons

4 swords to plowshares
4 green suns zenith
1 sylvan library
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 batterskull

4 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
2 forest
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 horizon canopy
1 gaeas cradle

Sideboard

3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 zealous persecution
2 ethersworn canonist
2 choke
1 reclamation sage
1 gaddoc teeg
1 abrupt decay
1 blessed alliance

Sigarda is great but costs a bunch of mana. Considering replacing her with either garruk relentless or renegade rallier

Nice list, try Sylvan Safekeeper in some mother slot - it's really worth. Question how good was Batterskull here since I had similar choose Skull vs Sigarda and Sigarda here wins since it's harder to remove then Skull.

Magnaguard100
08-25-2017, 05:46 PM
Nice list, try Sylvan Safekeeper in some mother slot - it's really worth. Question how good was Batterskull here since I had similar choose Skull vs Sigarda and Sigarda here wins since it's harder to remove then Skull.

Do you think its worth it to cut a mother for a safekeeper? I like batterskull a lot right now. It helps you grind and is really solid in a lot of matchups where you want more threats that can also be reused

Fatal
08-26-2017, 05:17 PM
I'm actually running 0 Mother of Runes and 2 Safekeeper and very happy with it - 2 remaining slots was used to feed new tools. Specially when opponent ends with Dead of Night which does nothing :-).

Sylvan Safekeeper have much more synergy with Maverick then Mother:
1. It's green which helps to find it with GSZ
2. It works right away - now If opponent have many removal on hand (most situation after sb) he need to FoW or counter GSZ for 1
3. It's repeatable, with - Ramunap endless, so opponent can't just use two removal.
4. It can pump Knight very very fast if needed.

It works much different then Mother of Runes, big compare with be done in new Primer, but in shorter version:
- Safekeeper is a mid/late game thread it bank removal just after resolve not only 1.
- Mother of Runes is early thread which blank 1 removal IF it survive to next turn, so If opponent will be caught with pants down - you gain value, if not it's only 1 for 1.

Nowadays decks Grixis, Czech Pile, new Miracles, BUG and similar running 5-8 removal MD/SB. It's very hard to gain additional value from Mother of Runes, specially that those SB slots are also directed to white creatures because of D&T.

Last edge over was option to bring dread of night in maverick against D&T, which resolves a lot of problems, since our white creatures X/1 was Thalia and Moms, after cut Thalia can be easily side out.

Batterskull vs Sigarda both fights over 5 cmc last weapon finish they work, but since Blade decks are on the rise I choose Sigarda to decrease number of hate cards against.
Sigarda blocks a lot of nasty cards like Liliana, Diabolic Edicts, Annihilator or All is Dust. Flying is also very big advantage in TNN presence. Sigarda is GSZable, while Skull is searched by SFM which is also very nice. Probably each player should pick up both cards and compare results to gets answer which one is better in his/her meta.

Magnaguard100
08-26-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm actually running 0 Mother of Runes and 2 Safekeeper and very happy with it - 2 remaining slots was used to feed new tools. Specially when opponent ends with Dead of Night which does nothing :-).

Sylvan Safekeeper have much more synergy with Maverick then Mother:
1. It's green which helps to find it with GSZ
2. It works right away - now If opponent have many removal on hand (most situation after sb) he need to FoW or counter GSZ for 1
3. It's repeatable, with - Ramunap endless, so opponent can't just use two removal.
4. It can pump Knight very very fast if needed.

It works much different then Mother of Runes, big compare with be done in new Primer, but in shorter version:
- Safekeeper is a mid/late game thread it bank removal just after resolve not only 1.
- Mother of Runes is early thread which blank 1 removal IF it survive to next turn, so If opponent will be caught with pants down - you gain value, if not it's only 1 for 1.

Nowadays decks Grixis, Czech Pile, new Miracles, BUG and similar running 5-8 removal MD/SB. It's very hard to gain additional value from Mother of Runes, specially that those SB slots are also directed to white creatures because of D&T.

Last edge over was option to bring dread of night in maverick against D&T, which resolves a lot of problems, since our white creatures X/1 was Thalia and Moms, after cut Thalia can be easily side out.

Batterskull vs Sigarda both fights over 5 cmc last weapon finish they work, but since Blade decks are on the rise I choose Sigarda to decrease number of hate cards against.
Sigarda blocks a lot of nasty cards like Liliana, Diabolic Edicts, Annihilator or All is Dust. Flying is also very big advantage in TNN presence. Sigarda is GSZable, while Skull is searched by SFM which is also very nice. Probably each player should pick up both cards and compare results to gets answer which one is better in his/her meta.


Thats super interesting. Could you post your decklist perchance? I wanna see the variantions

Cpt-Qc
08-27-2017, 12:40 PM
- Mother of Runes is early thread which blank 1 removal IF it survive to next turn, so If opponent will be caught with pants down - you gain value, if not it's only 1 for 1.


That's one thing I think you got completely wrong. Mom is removal protection early on, but late game she is even better. Safekeeper is strictly a defensive creature whereas mom lets you decide on which role you want to take. Surely she's not as effective at protecting but she makes knights connect, which can be quite hard to do against TNN and Strix (both are everywhere right now).

Fatal
08-27-2017, 05:23 PM
That's one thing I think you got completely wrong. Mom is removal protection early on, but late game she is even better. Safekeeper is strictly a defensive creature whereas mom lets you decide on which role you want to take. Surely she's not as effective at protecting but she makes knights connect, which can be quite hard to do against TNN and Strix (both are everywhere right now).

Sorry but, most time tapping mom for offensive ends very bad. IT success only if opponent doesn't have removal at all. But since resolved and survive mom block IT, you will release them when you tap her. To fight strix just use scryb, Thalia, Sofi etc..

ET1
08-27-2017, 06:23 PM
Sorry but, most time tapping mom for offensive ends very bad. IT success only if opponent doesn't have removal at all. But since resolved and survive mom block IT, you will release them when you tap her. To fight strix just use scryb, Thalia, Sofi etc..

If you're already using scryb you then have double mom protection which will generally enable to use her both offensively and defensively. Furthermore double mom allows mom to be used on offense as well as the times your opponent is hellebent or you can gauge that your opponent does not have a removal spell. None of those scenarios are corner case and do come up relatively often. TNN is one of the cards that maverick very easily loses to, the more outs the better.

Cpt-Qc
08-28-2017, 12:59 AM
Couldn't have said it better. You clearly don't want to drag the game on against control decks and guess what, TNN decks are mostly control ones. If you can't attack, you're getting behind.

Fatal
08-29-2017, 04:47 AM
If you're already using scryb you then have double mom protection which will generally enable to use her both offensively and defensively. Furthermore double mom allows mom to be used on offense as well as the times your opponent is hellebent or you can gauge that your opponent does not have a removal spell. None of those scenarios are corner case and do come up relatively often. TNN is one of the cards that maverick very easily loses to, the more outs the better.

This means you need Mom, Scryb Ranger and Thread - basically to blank 1 removal (and have possibility for 2 for 1) you need 3 creatures on table which lead risk against Terminus or Deluge which are common in Controls.

Same protection setup you will gain with Sylvan Safekeeper and a thread which are only two cards to so gain right away in this solution, you risk of multiple removal and it's green which is also advantage vs Dread of Night.

I don't want to force anyone to abandon Mom ( :-) ), but just try different build it will free two slots which are very precious.

If you really answer vs TNN to pierce their defense you can always try some build with Rogue's Passage or Kessig Wolf Run in splash (but I'm still not a fan of it). It's probably depends on meta, since I don't met often many TNN decks (mostly 1/8 games), SoFI mostly enough to handle them.

My actually build (still testing solutions and 1-ofs):
Core(13):
5 mana dorks - 4 shaman, 1 bop
4 KotR
4 Thalia (small)

Sfm package(5)
3 sfm
2 equips (jitte and sofi)

Bullets (7)
1 Railler
1 Ramunap
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Scryb ranger
1 Gaddock

Protection(2)
2 safekeeper

CQ/CA(2)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sylvan Library

Removal(4)
STP

Lands base(20)
1 dryad
8 fetchlands
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 Scrubland
2 forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Utility lands (4) - total lands(24)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB(15):
2 Abrupt
1 Path
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Canonist
1 C.Priest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Council's Judgement
2 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge //in testing

Testing now -1 Forest +1 Taiga(MD) and 2 Ancient Grudge (SB) against D&T MU. Have 4 answers after SB vs TNN (2 ZP, 1 CJ, 1 BA).

pettdan
08-29-2017, 05:05 AM
@Fatal: I wouldn't bother with the Taiga for Ancient Grudges if I were you, I always felt that one of the advantages of Maverick was always having access to artifact removal thanks to 4 GSZ + 1-2 Qasali + 0-1 Rallier + 0-3 Decay. Compare that with D&T who have 0 artifact removal md and maybe 1-2(not sure, never see them) post boarding. We're usually winning the equipment war in my experience. But sure, with the Vials there are plenty of targets you want to get. I've been sideboarding Aura Shards back and forth, it's such a house vs decks with Sylvan/Shardless/Strix/Vials/Chalice/Thopter Foundry/Equipment/Aluren/Food Chain, just destroys so many things turn after turn after turn. But still I can't quite motivate it lately (last year or two), since we already have pretty good artifact removal. I think I used it when Shardless or Stoneblade decks were extremely popular.

Magnaguard100
08-29-2017, 01:12 PM
This means you need Mom, Scryb Ranger and Thread - basically to blank 1 removal (and have possibility for 2 for 1) you need 3 creatures on table which lead risk against Terminus or Deluge which are common in Controls.

Same protection setup you will gain with Sylvan Safekeeper and a thread which are only two cards to so gain right away in this solution, you risk of multiple removal and it's green which is also advantage vs Dread of Night.

I don't want to force anyone to abandon Mom ( :-) ), but just try different build it will free two slots which are very precious.

If you really answer vs TNN to pierce their defense you can always try some build with Rogue's Passage or Kessig Wolf Run in splash (but I'm still not a fan of it). It's probably depends on meta, since I don't met often many TNN decks (mostly 1/8 games), SoFI mostly enough to handle them.

My actually build (still testing solutions and 1-ofs):
Core(13):
5 mana dorks - 4 shaman, 1 bop
4 KotR
4 Thalia (small)

Sfm package(5)
3 sfm
2 equips (jitte and sofi)

Bullets (7)
1 Railler
1 Ramunap
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Scryb ranger
1 Gaddock

Protection(2)
2 safekeeper

CQ/CA(2)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sylvan Library

Removal(4)
STP

Lands base(20)
1 dryad
8 fetchlands
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 Scrubland
2 forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Utility lands (4) - total lands(24)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB(15):
2 Abrupt
1 Path
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Canonist
1 C.Priest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Council's Judgement
2 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge //in testing

Testing now -1 Forest +1 Taiga(MD) and 2 Ancient Grudge (SB) against D&T MU. Have 4 answers after SB vs TNN (2 ZP, 1 CJ, 1 BA).

Instead of ancient grudge have you considered rec sage? You can gsz for it. It doesnt need to activate, so gets around revoker, and you can show and tell it in vs omniscience

ET1
08-29-2017, 08:22 PM
This means you need Mom, Scryb Ranger and Thread - basically to blank 1 removal (and have possibility for 2 for 1) you need 3 creatures on table which lead risk against Terminus or Deluge which are common in Controls.

Same protection setup you will gain with Sylvan Safekeeper and a thread which are only two cards to so gain right away in this solution, you risk of multiple removal and it's green which is also advantage vs Dread of Night.

I don't want to force anyone to abandon Mom ( :-) ), but just try different build it will free two slots which are very precious.

If you really answer vs TNN to pierce their defense you can always try some build with Rogue's Passage or Kessig Wolf Run in splash (but I'm still not a fan of it). It's probably depends on meta, since I don't met often many TNN decks (mostly 1/8 games), SoFI mostly enough to handle them.

My actually build (still testing solutions and 1-ofs):
Core(13):
5 mana dorks - 4 shaman, 1 bop
4 KotR
4 Thalia (small)

Sfm package(5)
3 sfm
2 equips (jitte and sofi)

Bullets (7)
1 Railler
1 Ramunap
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Scryb ranger
1 Gaddock

Protection(2)
2 safekeeper

CQ/CA(2)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sylvan Library

Removal(4)
STP

Lands base(20)
1 dryad
8 fetchlands
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 Scrubland
2 forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Utility lands (4) - total lands(24)
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB(15):
2 Abrupt
1 Path
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Canonist
1 C.Priest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Council's Judgement
2 Choke
2 Ancient Grudge //in testing

Testing now -1 Forest +1 Taiga(MD) and 2 Ancient Grudge (SB) against D&T MU. Have 4 answers after SB vs TNN (2 ZP, 1 CJ, 1 BA).

I think the major thing that keeps me hesitant on sylvan safekeeper is saccing lands does bear a fairly big cost. If i'm a control deck and I'm sitting across from a sylvan safekeeper i'm likely happy to use some removal to put my opponent off lands. Sure it can pump a knight, but i feel more often than not I'm fairly tight on mana and i generally plan out my knight activations carefully so as to not mana screw myself. This is only amplified by sylvan safekeeper. Not to mention in your list you're playing 3 more 3 drops then I do and you're playing sigarda. Your lands are likely a bit more precious then mine are.

Additionally are you having trouble with D&T? The match-up is traditionally one of maverick's better match-ups. Adding in a taiga for a couple sideboard cards seems super loose. Especially against a deck know to wreck havoc on mana bases through ghost quarter/wasteland/port/thalia v1/thalia v2. If you want a better d&t match-up mainboard the abrupt decays and add another bayou.

Stuart
08-30-2017, 12:27 AM
I think the major thing that keeps me hesitant on sylvan safekeeper is saccing lands does bear a fairly big cost. If i'm a control deck and I'm sitting across from a sylvan safekeeper i'm likely happy to use some removal to put my opponent off lands. Sure it can pump a knight, but i feel more often than not I'm fairly tight on mana and i generally plan out my knight activations carefully so as to not mana screw myself. This is only amplified by sylvan safekeeper. Not to mention in your list you're playing 3 more 3 drops then I do and you're playing sigarda. Your lands are likely a bit more precious then mine are.


This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

Cpt-Qc
08-30-2017, 02:38 AM
This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

Playing Excavator is not dependent on playing Safekeeper. I've been playing it every since it became legal and it's been a house.
Granted I never really wanted to GSZ for it but it's never been bad when I drew him. I'm not 100% sold on his spot in the deck but I can't think of something else for now.

TMagpie
08-30-2017, 03:11 AM
This sums up my feelings about the Safekeeper/Crucible Man plan. Seems like a strong late game setup, but unless I immediately follow up my turn 1/2 Safekeeper with Ramunap, Olle won't be protecting shit anytime soon. Mom might not be GSZable and she's summoning sick, but once she's online, she's free and very strong.

That said, I shouldn't knock it before I try it. I'll toss Safekeeper in my deck and run him at my Thursday weekly.

90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

Magnaguard100
08-30-2017, 07:00 AM
90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

This. Ive played against DnT a lot at my lgs and basically it comes down to who has an active mom and jitte. Mom is super important in the matchup because she lets you block for free, get damage through, protect against removal. And allow your jitte to get in damage. Once jitte connects once all i do with it is kill the moms first, then the game is much more winnable. Ive also lost plenty of times because they had a mom and got jitted to death

Fatal
08-30-2017, 02:15 PM
Made easy win on local tournament, fast 3 rounds:
Elves (2-1) - little lucky g1
Bant Stoneblade Tempo with GSZ (almost mirror but he runs blue) (2-0) - was super skill intensive (why I didnt record it!) - will write little report later
BUG Midrange (2-0)

MVP cards in order:
Wasteland
Ramunap Excavator
Gaddock Teeg
Zealous Persecution
Blessed Alliance
Sylvan Safekeeper
Ghost Quarter
Path to Exile
artifact removal (I used my list but no Ancient Grudge & Taiga, instead Sage and SoLAS - Grudge would be probably better here since I missed once removal)
Sigarda
Equips
KotRs

@Magnaguard100
Matchup changes a lot after SB when you have -1/-1 effects CA 3 for 1 is common, with all those moms, flickers etc, and more artifact removal, they side in more path to exiles, disenchant and RIP that's why I wanted Ancient Grudge since mom is still easy to beat by -1/-1, more problems are with Vialed SFM and equips. You don't have so many artifact removal, more over you fight with Flickerwisp.

TMagpie
08-30-2017, 02:29 PM
Made easy win on local tournament, fast 3 rounds:
Elves (2-1) - little lucky g1
Bant Stoneblade Tempo with GSZ (almost mirror but he runs blue) (2-0) - was super skill intensive (why I didnt record it!) - will write little report later
BUG Midrange (2-0)

MVP cards in order:
Wasteland
Ramunap Excavator
Gaddock Teeg
Zealous Persecution
Blessed Alliance
Sylvan Safekeeper
Ghost Quarter
Path to Exile
artifact removal (I used my list but no Ancient Grudge & Taiga, instead Sage and SoLAS - Grudge would be probably better here since I missed once removal)
Sigarda
Equips
KotRs

@Magnaguard100
Matchup changes a lot after SB when you have -1/-1 effects CA 3 for 1 is common, with all those moms, flickers etc, and more artifact removal, they side in more path to exiles, disenchant and RIP that's why I wanted Ancient Grudge since mom is still easy to beat by -1/-1, more problems are with Vialed SFM and equips. You don't have so many artifact removal, more over you fight with Flickerwisp.

How do you pay for all this? 1-2 removal spells and you're either saccing lands to protect your dudes, in which case wastelands immediately lock out your black sources, or you don't protect your dudes and you die to a board of x/2 creatures you can't kill. heck, Prelate for 2 is super good against most Maverick lists since it locks out Persecution and Decay allowing them to just run you over.

Not saying its an impossible matchup, but arguing that Moms are not relevant is a bit misleading.

Fatal
08-30-2017, 02:33 PM
How do you pay for all this? 1-2 removal spells and you're either saccing lands to protect your dudes, in which case wastelands immediately lock out your black sources, or you don't protect your dudes and you die to a board of x/2 creatures you can't kill. heck, Prelate for 2 is super good against most Maverick lists since it locks out Persecution and Decay allowing them to just run you over.

Not saying its an impossible matchup, but arguing that Moms are not relevant is a bit misleading.
Today Legacy non-combo decks have 4-8 removal spells after SB (like Bolt/Fatal Push in UBR or Decay/Fatal Push in BUG) you have much more lands, and you don't need them in late game. Each good player will keep hand with removal and can dig for an other so mom Summoning Sickness is the biggest issue.

Recurring lands by utility and always decide if you really need that land - your choose - better then not having choose and just lose mom every time it has SS. About black sources - never had problems with it.

Don't forget your main removal swords to plowshares cost 1, also add path to exile. If you really have more diversity you can replace 1 ZP to Deluge. Moms leads to more X-for-1 exchange. Prelate locks their artifact removal which can lead to selflock - we also run almost same equip setup, with option to search by GSZ which can easy dodge lock.

Prelate comes quite late against removal vs turn 1 Mom. Same is true vs decay blowing Vial.

P.S: Still looking for good Writers for primer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=1020034&viewfull=1#post1020034
we actually have separate hidden forum for primer update.

JamesFlipside
08-31-2017, 07:24 AM
So have got two copies of Safekeeper on their way in the post along with a copy of Levold.

I'm going to try a build with no SFM (but keeping 2-3 equipment, most likely 2 jitte 1 SOFI)
Will be running the DD/TS package as i feel that wins games that are otherwise awful because it's not hugely expected and can come out of nowhere thanks to Knight and Scryb.
Thinking to go quite heavy on manna dorks, maybe 4 DRS + 2 NH (possible 3 DRS 2 NH 1 BoP)
Not a fan of Ramunap having tried it and found it to be a bit win more.
Renegade Rallier is SICK as FUCK! Creates some insane value turns.
Would love to find room for two Quasali in main too.

*bored at work so just writing shit.

TMagpie
08-31-2017, 03:47 PM
Today Legacy non-combo decks have 4-8 removal spells after SB (like Bolt/Fatal Push in UBR or Decay/Fatal Push in BUG) you have much more lands, and you don't need them in late game. Each good player will keep hand with removal and can dig for an other so mom Summoning Sickness is the biggest issue.

Recurring lands by utility and always decide if you really need that land - your choose - better then not having choose and just lose mom every time it has SS. About black sources - never had problems with it.

Don't forget your main removal swords to plowshares cost 1, also add path to exile. If you really have more diversity you can replace 1 ZP to Deluge. Moms leads to more X-for-1 exchange. Prelate locks their artifact removal which can lead to selflock - we also run almost same equip setup, with option to search by GSZ which can easy dodge lock.

Prelate comes quite late against removal vs turn 1 Mom. Same is true vs decay blowing Vial.

P.S: Still looking for good Writers for primer: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20612-Deck-GW-x-Maverick&p=1020034&viewfull=1#post1020034
we actually have separate hidden forum for primer update.

I agree with all of this--for the most part. I'm just saying that being Momless makes the matchup MUCH harder than you are making it out to be. But the concept is sound--if the main thing I can think of as a weakness is turning a favored matchup into an even one it might be worth testing to see if its an overall boon for the deck.

Also--how can I help with the Primer?

Fatal
09-01-2017, 09:32 AM
I agree with all of this--for the most part. I'm just saying that being Momless makes the matchup MUCH harder than you are making it out to be. But the concept is sound--if the main thing I can think of as a weakness is turning a favored matchup into an even one it might be worth testing to see if its an overall boon for the deck.

Also--how can I help with the Primer?
Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use ( taken Amace)
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm. (Taken TMagpie)
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW ( taken TMagpie)
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

Magnaguard100
09-01-2017, 11:44 AM
90% of my hesitation comes from how fucked you'll be once you face an opposing Mom deck like the Mirror or D&T.

Played legacy at my other lgs store. The meta is a little different but still competitive. My 3 rounds showed just how powerful mom is.

Round 1 played against jeskai thopter control. Normally sofi is my go to against thopters, but he dacked my sofi, so mom put in work and let knight swing for buckets through his thopters. Taking 13 a turn is more than enough to get through his lifegain

Round 2 elves. Having a pro green creature meant jitte was able to connect and not deal with symbiote quirion ranger shennanigans

Round 3 hex depths. Having mom protect my birds meant i coukd indefinetly block mariat lage until i found a knight to get karakas to deal with mariat lage

Overall safekeeper can be real sweet, but the fact that mom is essentially a planeswalker than can activate at instant speed with 5+ modes makes her better

TMagpie
09-01-2017, 01:55 PM
Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm.
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

I'd be interested in 2.3 and potentially 4.1

Amace
09-02-2017, 02:14 AM
Looking for Experienced Writers for modules:
2.2 - Silver Bullets - all one-ofs in Maverick - each "bullet" must to be described by situation of use
2.3 - Stoneforge Mystic / Equips module - all equips compared vs decks and meta, and all configurations: 2 equips OR 2 equips and 2/3 sfm OR 3 equips and 3/4 sfm.
2.5 - Utility lands - described each utility land by situation of use and optional configuration depends on size of lands toolbox (2 to 4), cons and pros vs meta.
4.1 - Sideboard in Pure Maverick - GW
4.3 - Sideboard in Punishing Maverick - GWr

Writer will get access to separate subforum and will get responsibility for keeping up-to-date his module.

I'd be interested in 2.2.

Fatal
09-02-2017, 03:56 AM
Request sent, good luck!

menloe
09-08-2017, 10:28 AM
Ari Lax on Maverick at SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35785_Video-Maverick-In-Legacy.html.

Fatal
09-08-2017, 11:02 AM
Ari Lax on Maverick at SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35785_Video-Maverick-In-Legacy.html.

I don't like it:

- no MD Gaddock - so G1 vs storm is a lose, no answer vs many decks,
- 2 Scooze MD looks overkill in today meta with so many removal, a lot of gy hate MD + SB -> 2 Priest and 2 Surgical is a lot,
- no Railler which is really nuts is downside,
- no additional fast removal except MD StP mean some random loses vs delver.

I like good anti-TNN package 3 ZP + 1 Council's Judgment.

NEELEY
09-08-2017, 02:36 PM
I don't like it:

- no MD Gaddock - so G1 vs storm is a lose, no answer vs many decks,
- 2 Scooze MD looks overkill in today meta with so many removal, a lot of gy hate MD + SB -> 2 Priest and 2 Surgical is a lot,
- no Railler which is really nuts is downside,
- no additional fast removal except MD StP mean some random loses vs delver.

I like good anti-TNN package 3 ZP + 1 Council's Judgment.

No offense to the designer Danny but I just think it is badly constructed. If you watched the videos you could tell the inconsistency of the deck. Although I believe Danny won a 40 plus player event with this. Ari obviously would need reps as his mulligan decisions and play were questionable imo.

Andrea played my 75 in a video last week on channel fireball. The problem is they don't have reps with the decks and don't sideboard correctly. Or they question cards and they just are wrong. Glad to see the maverick content though.

Fatal
09-08-2017, 05:18 PM
No offense to the designer Danny but I just think it is badly constructed. If you watched the videos you could tell the inconsistency of the deck. Although I believe Danny won a 40 plus player event with this. Ari obviously would need reps as his mulligan decisions and play were questionable imo.

Andrea played my 75 in a video last week on channel fireball. The problem is they don't have reps with the decks and don't sideboard correctly. Or they question cards and they just are wrong. Glad to see the maverick content though.

I'm glad too, anyway Maverick isn't a deck that can be played out of the box, it require adjustment to driver playstyle and experience with deck. You can't fix your bad decisions by casting Brainstorm, you need to forecasting opponents plays since beginning of the game until the end, bad keep mean lose.

TMagpie
09-09-2017, 12:59 AM
I'm glad too, anyway Maverick isn't a deck that can be played out of the box, it require adjustment to driver playstyle and experience with deck. You can't fix your bad decisions by casting Brainstorm, you need to forecasting opponents plays since beginning of the game until the end, bad keep mean lose.

Heck, even good keeps means you lose if you don't sequence properly. As is the fate of all non-Brainstorm decks. I got as far as the third turn before I turned off Ari's video. I didn't realize how non-transparent the deck was until watching someone like Ari play it.

Rascalyote
09-09-2017, 01:20 AM
"hypothetical" question: If you wanted to play thoughtseize in the main and wanted another black source would you prefer a 9th fetch or a basic swamp :^)?

RobNC
09-09-2017, 08:18 AM
"hypothetical" question: If you wanted to play thoughtseize in the main and wanted another black source would you prefer a 9th fetch or a basic swamp :^)?

9th fetch, or maybe even a shock land. I don't think I'd ever want basic swamp in this deck; the only source that taps for nothing but black I'd ever want is Bojuka Bog, which is because my meta has tons of Reanimator.

Fatal
09-09-2017, 11:11 AM
9th fetch, or maybe even a shock land. I don't think I'd ever want basic swamp in this deck; the only source that taps for nothing but black I'd ever want is Bojuka Bog, which is because my meta has tons of Reanimator.

Agreed with it, you don't want basic swamp unless your meta is full of moon effects. Basic scenerio:
You fetched swamp on start and cast t.size to dodge wasteland, but most of your hands will have 1-2 fetchlands at most, this mean your next land will probably dual which will be good target for opponent wasteland, you mostly can't operate on basic swamp, that's why you fetch dual mostly unless you have more fetchlands/basics on hand so you can have waste-proof resources.

ET1
09-09-2017, 02:20 PM
maybe even a shock land.

We aren't playing death's shadow are we? :really::really::really:

But in all seriousness if you're playing the normal 3 black sources + deathrite I think you want to cut your 2nd basic forest for a 3rd bayou

Skizz
09-10-2017, 04:42 AM
you dont want more than 8 fetches.
i always only play 7 and im fine with it.
can be very bad when you dont have any Basic-lands/dual lands while searching with Knight after cracking fetches.

Fatal
09-10-2017, 06:41 AM
you dont want more than 8 fetches.
i always only play 7 and im fine with it.
can be very bad when you dont have any Basic-lands/dual lands while searching with Knight after cracking fetches.

@Skizz it's easy to count your number of duals/basics in library based on battlefield/hand/gy state. We can't but back duals/basics back on top with brainstorm, so every time you draw a dual/basic, just remember it isn't in library.

Case study:

manabase (only fetchable, and KotR-able lands - so fetchlands and forest/plains/duals):
8 fetchlands
3 basics
4 duals
dryad arbor

1. Drawing simple hand: 1 fetch, 1 dual, gsz

Fetch dual land, cast gsz for arbor:

Count in library after:
7 fetchlands
3 basics
2 duals

2. drawing fetchland in turn 3, and used KotR:

Fetch basic land from fetchland, used KotR to fetch fetchland, then from it, fetch basic (to cast soemthing for 5 mana isn't important in this case scenerio)

Count in library after:
5 fetchlands
1 basics
2 duals

Same is true to have plains/forests (so fetchable) lands to use by Knight of the Reliquary I have seen many mistakes by self locking with her. Constructions with Cradle have big advantage here so you can bring mana boost from last land just to still keep the resources on acceptable level ( to for example GSZ for Ramunap to lock opponent out of the game).

So basically without recurring (with Ramunap or Railler) you have max 8 uses for Knight of the Reliquary. It's not a lot, but mostly enough.

Like you see you can deplete all fetchlands and lands very fast in first 8 turns, so keep on track how many fetchable lands are in your library, it's easy to make mistake by not fetching fetchlands from KotR, or picking duals then fetchlands with sylvan library.

"Dead" Fetchlands still boost KotR and can be used by Sylvan Safekeeper as protection fuel.

RobNC
09-10-2017, 09:10 AM
We aren't playing death's shadow are we? :really::really::really:

But in all seriousness if you're playing the normal 3 black sources + deathrite I think you want to cut your 2nd basic forest for a 3rd bayou

The way the question was worded I was assuming budget was a consideration, since a Marsh Flats or a Swamp is much cheaper than another Bayou or Scrubland. Even still, I'd probably prefer an Overgrown Tomb over a 9th fetch if budget was a concern.

ET1
09-10-2017, 12:16 PM
The way the question was worded I was assuming budget was a consideration, since a Marsh Flats or a Swamp is much cheaper than another Bayou or Scrubland. Even still, I'd probably prefer an Overgrown Tomb over a 9th fetch if budget was a concern.

Very true, shock lands are fine replacements for duals if budget is an issue.

TMagpie
09-10-2017, 01:50 PM
On the question of "a 3rd black source" you need answer *why* you need the 3rd source?

My current list runs 8 fetchlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland, 1 Birds of Paradise, 4 Deathrite Shaman; which means I effectively have 12 sources of black mana (2.5 mana dorks equating to a land drop).

This often gives me decent early access to black sources. The weakness is that since I only have 2 lands with which to produce black mana with, they become very susceptible to Wasteland. This is problematic if you lean heavily on cards like Abrupt Decay in your DnT or Delver matchups, as a well timed Wasteland could easily make half your removal dead cards. This means that the only reason I would add a 3rd black mana source is to protect myself from Wasteland--which means Swamp would be what I would add.

What problems are you having in your list as to need that 3rd black mana source--choose the land that best fixes the problem you are specifically having.

Cpt-Qc
09-10-2017, 02:08 PM
On the question of "a 3rd black source" you need answer *why* you need the 3rd source?

My current list runs 8 fetchlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland, 1 Birds of Paradise, 4 Deathrite Shaman; which means I effectively have 12 sources of black mana (2.5 mana dorks equating to a land drop).

This often gives me decent early access to black sources. The weakness is that since I only have 2 lands with which to produce black mana with, they become very susceptible to Wasteland. This is problematic if you lean heavily on cards like Abrupt Decay in your DnT or Delver matchups, as a well timed Wasteland could easily make half your removal dead cards. This means that the only reason I would add a 3rd black mana source is to protect myself from Wasteland--which means Swamp would be what I would add.

What problems are you having in your list as to need that 3rd black mana source--choose the land that best fixes the problem you are specifically having.

I still prefer 7 fetches with 3 actual black sources just for the Knight effect of depleting your lands. I'd hate having to activate knight on one of my black sources if I didn't have at least 3 because you have to assume at least one is getting wastelanded.

ET1
09-10-2017, 02:11 PM
On the question of "a 3rd black source" you need answer *why* you need the 3rd source?

My current list runs 8 fetchlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland, 1 Birds of Paradise, 4 Deathrite Shaman; which means I effectively have 12 sources of black mana (2.5 mana dorks equating to a land drop).

This often gives me decent early access to black sources. The weakness is that since I only have 2 lands with which to produce black mana with, they become very susceptible to Wasteland. This is problematic if you lean heavily on cards like Abrupt Decay in your DnT or Delver matchups, as a well timed Wasteland could easily make half your removal dead cards. This means that the only reason I would add a 3rd black mana source is to protect myself from Wasteland--which means Swamp would be what I would add.

What problems are you having in your list as to need that 3rd black mana source--choose the land that best fixes the problem you are specifically having.

I think it's pretty standard to run 3 black producing lands in lists that run abrupt decay (me), and 2 if you don't. This discussion is in reference to running main deck thoughtseize. Although I don't recommend doing so, if you were to do it and be able to cast thoughtseize turn 1 on a consistent basis I think you would want to be running a 4th black producing land.


If I were to play thoughtseize maindeck my mana base would likely look like this:

4 windswept
3 verdant
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

(This could change depending on what you're cutting to make room for thoughtseize)

TMagpie
09-10-2017, 02:22 PM
Not disagreeing with any of the comments available. I run 2 black sources because I am trying to minimize the amount of black cards I play in any given matchup. Just pointing out that there needs to be *specific* reasons why you add the 3rd or 4th black source.

For example; if I want to reliably get a certain color of mana on the first turn, I normally run 14 of those sources. So when you say things like "I want to run Thoughtseize" it matters how many you run and how early you want to cast it. Are you running 4 and hoping to cast it turn one? Are you running 2-3 and hoping to just use it once on turn 6-7? Are the matchups where you don't side it out the kinds where they do or don't run wastelands? Etc...

ThisIsNilla
09-10-2017, 11:52 PM
So I picked up Maverick this week after getting into legacy a few months ago with Reanimator Depths, but I found out I don't like to lose to force and wasteland, and I just have had a deep love for GW decks since I started playing back in Urza's block. This is the list I have been using and so far it has been feeling really great:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/749453#online

This is tuned for MTGO but I'm going to toss extractions into the side when I go to SCG DC in October, I just don't have them on MTGO. I really like the Ramunap in the deck and have one multiple games by just being heavy on removal and then getting a delver or 4C Leo opponent in a wasteland lock, and Rallier is great for advancing the board and getting back hate pieces. I would love some feedback since I am pretty new to the format, and I know that Maverick is one of those decks that takes a lot of practice to do well with.

Fatal
09-11-2017, 06:00 AM
@ThisIsNilla

MD:
I would try to fit Gaddock Teeg MD, probably in slot of 1 Abrupt Decay MD. Having answer vs storm G1 any many other nasty spells like Ugin/Karn/All is Dust/Terminus etc. is hugh.

Question (playing in paper so it's different then MTGO pseudo-random generator) how many times you have to mulligan because of not drawing starting green mana:
you running:
1 Dryad
5 colorless (4 waste, 1 GQ)
1 Cradle
2 basics
5 duals
7 fetchlands
1 karakas
1 conopy
----------------
E = 23 lands but..

7 of them doesn't give colored mana in vacuum,
10 of them doesn't give green (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Plains, 1 Karakas,1 Scrubland) - 13 green sources / should be 14,
10 of them doesn't give white (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Forest, 2 Bayou) - 13 white sources / should be 14,

In paper, I run additional fetchland - to 8 to stabilize manabase, it changes CQ proportion, but I also use 2 Sylvan Safekeeper in MoR slots so I use more manabase as resources.

I'm not playing on MTGO so it may work properly but in paper 13 sources is really unstable like in Dredge (1 wasteland can punish you for such a greed :-) )

SB:
Does Pulse really is better then second Council's Judgement ?

TMagpie
09-11-2017, 06:47 AM
@ThisIsNilla

MD:
I would try to fit Gaddock Teeg MD, probably in slot of 1 Abrupt Decay MD. Having answer vs storm G1 any many other nasty spells like Ugin/Karn/All is Dust/Terminus etc. is hugh.

Question (playing in paper so it's different then MTGO pseudo-random generator) how many times you have to mulligan because of not drawing starting green mana:
you running:
1 Dryad
5 colorless (4 waste, 1 GQ)
1 Cradle
2 basics
5 duals
7 fetchlands
1 karakas
1 conopy
----------------
E = 23 lands but..

7 of them doesn't give colored mana in vacuum,
10 of them doesn't give green (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Plains, 1 Karakas,1 Scrubland) - 13 green sources / should be 14,
10 of them doesn't give white (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Forest, 2 Bayou) - 13 white sources / should be 14,

In paper, I run additional fetchland - to 8 to stabilize manabase, it changes CQ proportion, but I also use 2 Sylvan Safekeeper in MoR slots so I use more manabase as resources.

I'm not playing on MTGO so it may work properly but in paper 13 sources is really unstable like in Dredge (1 wasteland can punish you for such a greed :-) )

SB:
Does Pulse really is better then second Council's Judgement ?

For math context.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

More honestly, I usually feel "forced" mulligan 1-2 times a 6-9 player event.

Fatal
09-11-2017, 10:16 AM
@TMagpie

Looks like a proof of minimum 14 sources for mana dork/turn 1 removal requirement.

Full math resource model for Maverick is very complicated, because of:
- Mana dorks count in library changes by GSZ and GSZ shuffle back
- Lands count changes by fetchlands AND Knight of the Reliquary
- some mana dorks are conditional (Shaman)
- Additional distortion after fetching/casting utility creatures (Scryb Ranger)
- Some lands gives conditional mana (more then one) based on battlefield state (Gaea's Cradle)
- Lands can be bring back by (Railler and Ramunap) but only conditional (if they left battlefield - read fetch, wasteland or KotR/Safekeeper use).

ThisIsNilla
09-11-2017, 01:41 PM
@ThisIsNilla

MD:
I would try to fit Gaddock Teeg MD, probably in slot of 1 Abrupt Decay MD. Having answer vs storm G1 any many other nasty spells like Ugin/Karn/All is Dust/Terminus etc. is hugh.

Question (playing in paper so it's different then MTGO pseudo-random generator) how many times you have to mulligan because of not drawing starting green mana:
you running:
1 Dryad
5 colorless (4 waste, 1 GQ)
1 Cradle
2 basics
5 duals
7 fetchlands
1 karakas
1 conopy
----------------
E = 23 lands but..

7 of them doesn't give colored mana in vacuum,
10 of them doesn't give green (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Plains, 1 Karakas,1 Scrubland) - 13 green sources / should be 14,
10 of them doesn't give white (4 waste, 1 GQ, 1 Dryad, 1 Cradle, 1 Forest, 2 Bayou) - 13 white sources / should be 14,

In paper, I run additional fetchland - to 8 to stabilize manabase, it changes CQ proportion, but I also use 2 Sylvan Safekeeper in MoR slots so I use more manabase as resources.

I'm not playing on MTGO so it may work properly but in paper 13 sources is really unstable like in Dredge (1 wasteland can punish you for such a greed :-) )

SB:
Does Pulse really is better then second Council's Judgement ?


According to my data in my 20 matches I have mulled 6 times, I dont have notes if it was due to flood or no mana, but I will take it into consideration, the GQ is probably what could go since I haven't ever used it yet and if I did I would put in another basic probably. As for the pulse, I haven't cast it yet, so it could be another council's judgement since i have Zealous vs tokens and pyromancer, CJ takes care of a lot of other things.

Brael
09-11-2017, 03:21 PM
For math context.

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/


I disagree a lot with that article, I've done my own analysis for several decks over the years. The real number is much higher than what Frank Karsten suggests for mana sources, the problem is that in order to get good and consistent turns 1-3 you often times end up reducing the effectiveness of your future turns. As a result, what you actually want is high mana generation combined with a bunch of optimal mana sinks. This is why Deathrite Shaman is so fantastic, not to mention Wasteland (if you can use the mana).


@TMagpie

Looks like a proof of minimum 14 sources for mana dork/turn 1 removal requirement.

Full math resource model for Maverick is very complicated, because of:
- Mana dorks count in library changes by GSZ and GSZ shuffle back
- Lands count changes by fetchlands AND Knight of the Reliquary
- some mana dorks are conditional (Shaman)
- Additional distortion after fetching/casting utility creatures (Scryb Ranger)
- Some lands gives conditional mana (more then one) based on battlefield state (Gaea's Cradle)
- Lands can be bring back by (Railler and Ramunap) but only conditional (if they left battlefield - read fetch, wasteland or KotR/Safekeeper use).

This is where variable costs come into play. GSZ fits into every slot on your curve, Reliquary is resoruce conversion, Cradle is another type of acceleration, and so on. I think that what you're specifically looking for isn't a magic number of lands, but rather efficient uses for your mana.

Fatal
09-11-2017, 03:56 PM
I disagree a lot with that article, I've done my own analysis for several decks over the years. The real number is much higher than what Frank Karsten suggests for mana sources, the problem is that in order to get good and consistent turns 1-3 you often times end up reducing the effectiveness of your future turns. As a result, what you actually want is high mana generation combined with a bunch of optimal mana sinks. This is why Deathrite Shaman is so fantastic, not to mention Wasteland (if you can use the mana).



This is where variable costs come into play. GSZ fits into every slot on your curve, Reliquary is resoruce conversion, Cradle is another type of acceleration, and so on. I think that what you're specifically looking for isn't a magic number of lands, but rather efficient uses for your mana.

Actually mana sinks only effective on additional resources when you already realize your strategy, fully agreed that GSZ is perfect scaling card. Shaman isn't we rather focused on strategy to resolve then random mana sinks, for example using Shaman on turn 2-3 to ate instant/creature is low priority unless we realize with it point 1:
1) Break opponent gameplan
2) Cut opponent resources to limit his options
3) Attack him to death

Those are probably 3 main goal of Maverick in order, number 1 can be achieve by number 2.

I have thesis:
that almost perfect mana curve is an function CMC(x) to count number of cards(y) could be described by: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=y%3D23e%5E(-x%2F1.596)
Maverick almost achieve it, 49 cards fit to it, 4 GSZ can fit in any cost so was omitted, so last 7 cards are mostly bump on CMC = 3 which would describe Maverick deck as an midrange. It's still a thesis without any proof.

TMagpie
09-11-2017, 04:09 PM
I disagree a lot with that article, I've done my own analysis for several decks over the years. The real number is much higher than what Frank Karsten suggests for mana sources, the problem is that in order to get good and consistent turns 1-3 you often times end up reducing the effectiveness of your future turns. As a result, what you actually want is high mana generation combined with a bunch of optimal mana sinks. This is why Deathrite Shaman is so fantastic, not to mention Wasteland (if you can use the mana).



This is where variable costs come into play. GSZ fits into every slot on your curve, Reliquary is resoruce conversion, Cradle is another type of acceleration, and so on. I think that what you're specifically looking for isn't a magic number of lands, but rather efficient uses for your mana.

My experience with this article over multiple formats have been more helpful than not. As an example, my current Maverick list runs 14 white sources, 14 green sources, and 10 black sources. This means I reliably cast either Mom or a mana dork on turn 1, while having access to DRS drains on turn 5 or so.

However, the article here focuses on minimum numbers, not optimal numbers. For example, his math suggests that getting GGG by turn 3 requires around 16 green sources--which is relevant for decks running Scavenging Ooze who wants to be able to have 2-3 green sources up even if they're still casting green spells each turn. As someone who runs only 14 sources of G, i actually feel this tightness in green mana every time the game shifts to scooze game.

My preferred mana goals is usually 2 more sources than this article prescribes, but I often aim to never go below the minimums this article prescribes. And when I run a deck like Maverick that needs utility lands and who sacrifices its own lands for Knight activations--I often find myself really forced to stretch thin my colors to maximize late game strength.

ThisIsNilla
09-12-2017, 09:27 AM
So should i cut the GQ for another canopy? I think Ramunap is still useful with just wasteland but I'm not sure.

Fatal
09-12-2017, 03:53 PM
GQ is very good, I played already a lot of games when it just won me game by "strip mining" basic lands (used bth with Railler and Ramunap). I would rather found slot in nonland cards -> to put 8th fetchland.

Minniehajj
09-13-2017, 07:24 AM
My friend Ethan Gaieski did an analysis on Punishing Maverick that he posted on Reddit last night. I think sharing it with you fine folks would be swell!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6zryut/morticiansunions_punishing_naya_maverick_decklist/

menloe
09-13-2017, 04:52 PM
My friend Ethan Gaieski did an analysis on Punishing Maverick that he posted on Reddit last night. I think sharing it with you fine folks would be swell!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6zryut/morticiansunions_punishing_naya_maverick_decklist/

Thanks! I am always stoked to see his lists pop up on goldfish and am glad to read the reasons behind some of his choices. I was thinking about shifting back to Pun Mav for paper events and this is pushing me fairly hard in that direction.

Brael
09-13-2017, 05:06 PM
My experience with this article over multiple formats have been more helpful than not. As an example, my current Maverick list runs 14 white sources, 14 green sources, and 10 black sources. This means I reliably cast either Mom or a mana dork on turn 1, while having access to DRS drains on turn 5 or so.

I think the reason it's helpful is that following his guidelines generally leads players to play more lands than their instincts tell them to play. However, as I said... I've run my own analysis with several different decks. I took a similar approach to what Frank Karsten did when he tried to figure out mana curves via simulation, except I made a slightly more robust program... which eventually developed into a full blown Magic AI for certain decks. What I found was that regardless of if you were goldfishing or playing against an opponent, more lands generally made you win faster. In fact, with a deck like Burn (I posted many of my results in the Burn thread here, so you can go back and look at them if interested) the optimal land count was 26, which is very unintuitive. With a deck like Maverick which has many lines of play and more varied sources of mana as well as mana sinks it gets a bit more complicated.

What I can say though, is that the combination of GSZ (especially with a Dryad Arbor in there), DRS, and Wasteland, gives you a very versatile curve that can fit almost any hand. I bet a solid case could still be made for 24 being an optimal land count, but due to GSZ and the power of it being able to tutor (and therefore, scale in power based on the number of targets it has), there's probably a solid argument to be made that a compromise of 23 is better.

I would love to get my simulator to the point that it can play Maverick but high decision tree cards like GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary are extremely difficult to implement.

TMagpie
09-14-2017, 01:27 AM
I am intrigued to learn more about your algorithm.

JackaBo
09-14-2017, 07:14 AM
.

I would love to get my simulator to the point that it can play Maverick but high decision tree cards like GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary are extremely difficult to implement.

Not to mention sylvan library-esque cards, right? Do your algoritm also handle the blue cantrip cartel? Ive heard the idea that 4 cantrips replaces one land, but that seem to be taken out if the air - especially since it lumps together ponder (THE land finder) with gitaxian probe (digs nowhere) and impulse (requires 2 mana to cast).

Brael
09-14-2017, 09:43 AM
Not to mention sylvan library-esque cards, right? Do your algoritm also handle the blue cantrip cartel? Ive heard the idea that 4 cantrips replaces one land, but that seem to be taken out if the air - especially since it lumps together ponder (THE land finder) with gitaxian probe (digs nowhere) and impulse (requires 2 mana to cast).

It can handle cantrips, that's not too hard (the whole thing was originally built to test SDT in Burn, so the approach was one where cantrips would be easy to test). The approach I took was to rate each card contextually based on if it trades, replaces itself, slows the opponents clock, or speeds your own clock (there's a couple other factors too, but I don't remember them offhand, haven't looked at the code in a couple months). Then it plays, selects, etc cards that rate higher. Cantrips have actually performed rather poorly as a whole, not to say they're bad, but I think they're over rated a bit. Their biggest value is that they let you significantly increase your blue card count for FoW.

When it comes to Sylvan Library, it seems simple enough to evaluate, you sort the cards, then for cards 2 and 3 you just evaluate if they're still worth it if they cost an extra 4 life for the effect.

GSZ is hard because it involves two choices, first is the choice of when to cast it, which impacts how much you cast it for, and second is the choice of what to get. The algorithm I use will almost always delay the card for a more powerful effect, rather than fire it off early for something like a DRS. I haven't figured out a good way to implement it yet. KotR has a similar issue, because it has to evaluate a clock vs a tutor, and if it tutors, what it should get.


I am intrigued to learn more about your algorithm.

It's focused mainly on speed. Some others have tried similar things before where they simulate games based on perfect play which takes a long time to simulate. I took a different route, I just try to make easy to calculate good plays and make up for quality with quantity. Then I record all the plays in a database. From there I can look to the data for similarities between good and bad games.

ThisIsNilla
09-14-2017, 06:03 PM
So I took out the decays and GQ mainboard. Added a Pridemage, Teeg, and another canopy mainboard. It feels really solid at this point. The mana feels much smoother with the added G/W source.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/749453#online

Fatal
09-15-2017, 05:15 PM
Good changes looking for feedback how it will be working with two Canopies.

ThisIsNilla
09-16-2017, 12:17 AM
Good changes looking for feedback how it will be working with two Canopies.

So far I am liking at a lot, being able to draw cards late game with Ramunap is a real thing if wasteland lock isnt viable and Leo took your library offline (This happens surprisingly often with how much play Leo is seeing). Also normally I only have to take 2 or 3 damage off of it for a land before I am flush enough just to start sacking it, which isn't a big deal when you're able to connect with Jitte so easily through Moms and Scryb Ranger. Not really missing decay at all in the main since I went up on pridemages which help with anything problematic like Chalices and Moons. Still iffy on a few matchups but that might be a side boarding thing, most notably BR reanimator, the lack of surgicals hurts here, but the deck is on such a huge downswing that I am not really concerned about it. I think my view of the matchup got tarnished by a match where they kept 7 both games which I know from experience with reanimator it is not a common thing.

Thunderknight
09-16-2017, 12:26 AM
I've been dark for a while, but I'm going to go play with EE7 with my baby brew. I've changed some things.

Here's my list.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mavericks-eternal-garden/

Here's a rough SB Guide that I've been writing. Besides the shitty grammer, and the terrible non-complete sentences. Let me know any feedback.

Sideboard Guide
Grixis Delver: Favorable.

ē Keep their Deathrite and Young Pyro off the table. Thatís how they win by massive tokens and drain effects. Focus on Getting Knight down and getting her big.
ē There are two types of Delvers: Stifle vs Cabal. Identify key signs of what type of deck your facing (If they go play fetch, pass. Donít crack your fetch, you can afford to play it safe, donít be reckless).
ē Watch out cards: Dread of Night/Fiery Convent, Abrade. Game 2/3, get Sigarda on table and start swinging. True Name Nemesis can be annoying, but if you have Alliance/ Zealous, you are in a good spot.
Burn: UnFavorable
ē Game 1 will be tough, resolve Jitte and start swinging. Be on the lookout for Price effects and Fireblast. Mom + Thalia + Jitte should do the trick. Donít be afraid to swords your Knight, thatís how you survive the longer game if it comes down to it.
ē Watch out cards: Smash to Smitheereens, this card will be very annoying. Between Canonist and Jitte, prioritize which one that you can afford to get smash.

Death and Taxes: Most Favorable
ē Game 1 donít drop Thalia, because she is a dead card. They have more Karakas than you. Focus on resolving Sigarda and equip it with Jitte. Remove their Mom as fast as possible, the player who assembles two Moms will most likely win the game. Mom + Scryb is how we ensemble our soft lock. With Qasli Pridemage: You need to understand which artifact to destroy. Depending on the board state, hitting the swords is correct, then Vials.
ē Watch out cards: They are probably bring in paths, containment priest, and maybe Councils. Slam Sigarda and go to town.

BR Reanimator: Most Unfavorable
ē You are fighting an uphill battle. Between Unmask, Annex, and Thoughtseize. You donít have permission to stop their combo. Most likely they are getting Griselbrand, followed by Elesh Norn, to kill our smaller creatures. You need to find a Swords for TIdespout because thatís how they truly win. Resolve Thalia, and aggressive hit their lands, or find Knight and get Karakas/Maze.
ē Cards to watch Out: Collective Brutality is a killer card against us.. You bring in a lot of hate. slam priest down and protect her. They have the option to bring in Sneak Attack, at which point make sure you have Pridemage active, and maze ready.

4c Leovold/4c Control: 50/50.
ē We can get buried if they draw too much from either Leovold, or Sylan Library. They can also attack us in different ways (removal spells, and discard spells). Jace is primary there win con, at which point. Your primary objective is to get Sigarda online and equipped with Sophie. Knights can get there, but they run Abrupt Decay and Push. Just be mindful of not trying to overextend into a Deluge.
ē Beware Cards: Diabolic Edict, Keranos God of Storms, and Toxic Deluge. The only creature that really needs to be removed is leovold. Canonist can help slow down the card spells and removal spells.


Miracles: Unfavorable
ē This deck can get out of hand quickly. Between Snaps and mentors, you need to win the game quickly. Two Soft lock to know.
1.) Mom + Gaddock/Thalia+ Scryb = No Jace + Terminus, slows down cantrips and removal.
2.) Sigarda, Host of Herons + Karakas
ē Beware Cards: Containment Preist, Councils, Entreat. You really canít beat Entreat. The two cards to surgical is 1.) Swords to plowshares and then 2.) Entreat. Everything else can be destroyed. You really donít care about blood mon and Back to basics. Fetch correctly and you will be fine.


Lands: 50/50
ē This match-up is complicated. There are two cards that you should focus on game 1.) Loam and Fire. We have a lot of answers for them making 20/20s. Donít go to the wasteland game plan. You wonít be able to lock them out. All they need is one green source and they can reestablished. Maze of Ith/Thespian Stage/ Chasm is how they are trying to stall out until they have P.Fire ready or 20/20 ready. Tabernacle is another annoying card. Which is the only card to wasteland. Remove Explorations ASAP! Protect DRS and Mom.
ē Beware Cards: Drop of Honey, Devastation Dreams, Pyroclasm, Burning Wish. Surgical is very key to win this match. Some of the lands are on the Burning wish package, which will purposefully side out a copy of Loam. My recommendation is to wait until they burning wish, and then surgical. So that you can remove all copies effective. You might not have enough mana, but if you find yourself to be able to cast Sigarda, do so, and try to protect her.
ē Synergerization is a key to beat this deck. Think of maverick as a machine. Here are some locks to be aware. IF anything. Do not allow them to kill Scryb Ranger. Keep her alive, because she is the key to win.
1.) Mom + Thalia + Scryb = slows down P.Fire
2.) DRS + Scryb = 2 activations
3.) Knight + Scryb/Maze = 2 activations

Show and Tell: Most Unfavorable
ē This match-up is complicated, for one reason. When they resolve show and Tell, you donít know whatís coming. There are four options; Emrakul, Omnisceince, Griselbrand, and Sneak Attack. Its very hard to choose which card to reveal so Iím going to give you the most optimal choices to pick.
1.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Griselbrand, choose Knight or Karakas
2.) IF you predict that they are going to reveal Emrakul, choose Knight, karakas, or Sigarda.
3.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Omniscience, choose Thalia or Pridemage,
4.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Sneak Attack, choose Karakas or Pridemage
ē I would not try to jam stoneforge, but thatís your only way to apply pressure, then go for it. Knights and Sigardaís are your key beaters.
ē Beware cards: Pyroclasm/Kozliekís Return. Release the Ants combo. Sudden Shock. Try not to overextend. Jam Canonist as fast as possible, and then jam Priest in response to either Show and Tell or Sneak Attack.

Deathblade/Stoneblade: 50/50
ē This will be a grindy game. They can come from different angles, but more of less. Eliminating the stoneblade part isnít the problem. True Name and Jace are problematic cards that you are just going to have to accept and start racing them. Scryb Ranger + Sophie helps in the air. They donít run that many non-creature spells. So donít focus on just jamming Thaliaís. Mom + Knight or just Sigarda is to way to win.
ē Beware cards: All sweepers. Sigarda + Sophie should be lightís out for them.

Storm: 50/50
ē Two things to note. One, which type of storm, because if your opponent is playing TES, then you want to jam as much creatures as you can because of goblins. The other note is that if you are playing against ANT. A resolve Gaddock Teeg wins the game. They donít have any MD cards to kill him.
ē This match you would want to mulligan aggressively. Because of the nature of this match, you need find a hatebear
ē Beware cards: Chain of Vapor, Dread of Night, Massacre, Abrade. Its important to know which two drop to jam. In order, its Canonist, then Gaddock Teeg, then Thalia. If you can avoid it, avoid playing a plains. Either use it from Horizon Canopy or mana dorks. But thatís the quickest way to lose your board control.

4c Loam: Favorable.
ē This deck is resilient in a lot of ways. From recurring back lands to GSZ Knights, it can be problematic. I find that to win this match, Mom + Knight/Scryb Ranger is Key. Sigarda will protect you from LoTV. Donít allow them to have Bob, and swords their Knights. IF they are on the 20/20 plan, keep Scryb Ranger alive. Scaenging Ooze + Gaeaís Cradle will do a lot
ē Beware Cards: Toxic Deluge, Chandra, Tourch of Defiance, Leyline of the Void. Generally, you Donít really care about Leyline, but since we are running Excavator, this is needs to be removed at all cost.

Eldrazi: Mostly Favorable.
ē Really simple. Donít even bother playing Mom or Thalia. Jam Knights and waste them out of the game. IF you suspect that they are White Eldrazi, then its ok playing Mom. Just donít jam Thalia,
ē Beware Cards: Endbringer/All is Dust/Karn. Endbringer is really annoying, the only way to remove this wanna be planeswalker is swords. Donít waste your Swords on the smaller creatures. TKS, RS, EB are the three biggest targets.

Fatal
09-16-2017, 07:06 AM
Feedback is comming :-)


I've been dark for a while, but I'm going to go play with EE7 with my baby brew. I've changed some things.

Here's my list.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mavericks-eternal-garden/

Here's a rough SB Guide that I've been writing. Besides the shitty grammer, and the terrible non-complete sentences. Let me know any feedback.

Sideboard Guide
Grixis Delver: Favorable.

ē Keep their Deathrite and Young Pyro off the table. Thatís how they win by massive tokens and drain effects. Focus on Getting Knight down and getting her big.
ē There are two types of Delvers: Stifle vs Cabal. Identify key signs of what type of deck your facing (If they go play fetch, pass. Donít crack your fetch, you can afford to play it safe, donít be reckless).
ē Watch out cards: Dread of Night/Fiery Convent, Abrade. Game 2/3, get Sigarda on table and start swinging. True Name Nemesis can be annoying, but if you have Alliance/ Zealous, you are in a good spot.

It's much different strategy on play and on draw. Sigarda will be really nice but it cost a lot of mana, resource fight will be key factor, specially vs stifle version.
On play even vs stifle version, they mostly side out stifles since we running too much mana dorks, some players will keep stifles to have protection against our wastelands. Factor which wasn't noted was pressure on opponent graveyard. Ooze can be very good here, specially that he will have a lot of food since they running non-exiling removal. Beware K.command, before developing equip try to cut their resources, it's very possible to lock them completely with help of Railler and Ramunap. I wouldn't keep Sigarda MD in g2 and g3 since it's very expensive and most time it will be rotting on hand, but again - Grixs have two version - tempo one, and control one vs control (no delver) - keep it, vs tempo (delver one) I would side out - better side in removal in her slot.



Burn: UnFavorable
ē Game 1 will be tough, resolve Jitte and start swinging. Be on the lookout for Price effects and Fireblast. Mom + Thalia + Jitte should do the trick. Donít be afraid to swords your Knight, thatís how you survive the longer game if it comes down to it.
ē Watch out cards: Smash to Smitheereens, this card will be very annoying. Between Canonist and Jitte, prioritize which one that you can afford to get smash.

Shamans, removal and Ooze will be your option to answer Burn even without equips (against Smash to Smithereens), also bigger then 3/3 Knight of the Reliquary can be very handy, connected with Sylvan Safekeeper generate brutal clock, Safekeeper also safe you from Price effect and Gaddock from fireblasts. They will bring a lot of removal + bolt option which is probably the most brutal vs us. Remember that Eidolon can works on our side since we can dodge dmg from it by GSZ.




Death and Taxes: Most Favorable
ē Game 1 donít drop Thalia, because she is a dead card. They have more Karakas than you. Focus on resolving Sigarda and equip it with Jitte. Remove their Mom as fast as possible, the player who assembles two Moms will most likely win the game. Mom + Scryb is how we ensemble our soft lock. With Qasli Pridemage: You need to understand which artifact to destroy. Depending on the board state, hitting the swords is correct, then Vials.
ē Watch out cards: They are probably bring in paths, containment priest, and maybe Councils. Slam Sigarda and go to town.

Keep hand with removal vs mom, and destroy vial ASAP, if they deploy 3rd counter it's mostly too late to blow it. The best creature they run vs us - Flickerwisp. I would rather say it's 50/50 matchup dependent on sb cards and starting hand - if you will have enough artifact removal (2 is minimum) you will win, moms easily dies to sb cards like zealous persecution.




BR Reanimator: Most Unfavorable
ē You are fighting an uphill battle. Between Unmask, Annex, and Thoughtseize. You donít have permission to stop their combo. Most likely they are getting Griselbrand, followed by Elesh Norn, to kill our smaller creatures. You need to find a Swords for TIdespout because thatís how they truly win. Resolve Thalia, and aggressive hit their lands, or find Knight and get Karakas/Maze.
ē Cards to watch Out: Collective Brutality is a killer card against us.. You bring in a lot of hate. slam priest down and protect her. They have the option to bring in Sneak Attack, at which point make sure you have Pridemage active, and maze ready.

Thalia is probably best card against them, along with Shamans, if they don't go off turn 1-2 it's a big change to win, also resolved Knight is a big deal for us. Better then surgicals are fearie macabre since they works fine under Annex taxing.



4c Leovold/4c Control: 50/50.
ē We can get buried if they draw too much from either Leovold, or Sylan Library. They can also attack us in different ways (removal spells, and discard spells). Jace is primary there win con, at which point. Your primary objective is to get Sigarda online and equipped with Sophie. Knights can get there, but they run Abrupt Decay and Push. Just be mindful of not trying to overextend into a Deluge.
ē Beware Cards: Diabolic Edict, Keranos God of Storms, and Toxic Deluge. The only creature that really needs to be removed is leovold. Canonist can help slow down the card spells and removal spells.

Interesting thing is that I found this matchup is quite easy. Resolved Sigarda mostly close up this matchup. Also aggressive attack on opponent mana base can cut of their key cards like Jace/Keranos or even Deluge - if taxed by Thalia. 70% of this matchup I ended by blowing last land from their side. Since they side in mostly removal I bring in recursion like life from the loam or Sword of Light and Shadow which also works very well. Don't worry about Leo, if you can deploy Knight with protection, just bounce it (if you can't kill it) and keep pressure on their mana base, assemble recursion with Ramunap and match will be mostly yours.



Miracles: Unfavorable
ē This deck can get out of hand quickly. Between Snaps and mentors, you need to win the game quickly. Two Soft lock to know.
1.) Mom + Gaddock/Thalia+ Scryb = No Jace + Terminus, slows down cantrips and removal.
2.) Sigarda, Host of Herons + Karakas
ē Beware Cards: Containment Preist, Councils, Entreat. You really canít beat Entreat. The two cards to surgical is 1.) Swords to plowshares and then 2.) Entreat. Everything else can be destroyed. You really donít care about blood mon and Back to basics. Fetch correctly and you will be fine.

Choke in proper time will give you an edge over, same is true for blow up plains and tundras. Keep only decay's as removal vs Mentor. StP should be side out. You can try to surgical their STP, but this plan isn't perfectly IMO since it's card disadvantage, focus on gaining not losing, so use good Tracker and Ramunap. Keep pressure but not more then 2 creatures at once. Use equips and Dryad arbor extensively.
It's 50/50 after SB from mine notes. Sylvan Safekeeper is a beast vs, since it can be easily Zenithed back after Terminus.



Lands: 50/50
ē This match-up is complicated. There are two cards that you should focus on game 1.) Loam and Fire. We have a lot of answers for them making 20/20s. Donít go to the wasteland game plan. You wonít be able to lock them out. All they need is one green source and they can reestablished. Maze of Ith/Thespian Stage/ Chasm is how they are trying to stall out until they have P.Fire ready or 20/20 ready. Tabernacle is another annoying card. Which is the only card to wasteland. Remove Explorations ASAP! Protect DRS and Mom.
ē Beware Cards: Drop of Honey, Devastation Dreams, Pyroclasm, Burning Wish. Surgical is very key to win this match. Some of the lands are on the Burning wish package, which will purposefully side out a copy of Loam. My recommendation is to wait until they burning wish, and then surgical. So that you can remove all copies effective. You might not have enough mana, but if you find yourself to be able to cast Sigarda, do so, and try to protect her.
ē Synergerization is a key to beat this deck. Think of maverick as a machine. Here are some locks to be aware. IF anything. Do not allow them to kill Scryb Ranger. Keep her alive, because she is the key to win.
1.) Mom + Thalia + Scryb = slows down P.Fire
2.) DRS + Scryb = 2 activations
3.) Knight + Scryb/Maze = 2 activations

You mixed two different decks Aggro Loam and R/G combo lands.
R/G combo lands doesn't use Burning Wish, they use Gamble.
Aggro Loam doesn't use Exploration, and have Chalice.

Aggro loam matchup is like an mirror mana base will be key factor, an option to remove opponent gy, so Bojuka Bog, Ooze and Shamans will be key cards. They run quite a lot of removal - decay's, punishing fire and many Liliana's. Best finisher will be Sigarda if you win resource fight. Other option is Safekeeper and Knight. Don't ignore their moxies, if you can blow it - do it. Thalia will help to clock their removal.

R/G lands is different beast they doesn't run any other removal (MD) then punishing fire. They are focused on fast token, and limiting resources - vs them you will be fightning for your own resources - as ThunderKnight said - don't try to lock them, better slow their key cards, and pressure. Thalia is very good here. Keep eating their graveyard - scavenging ooze is their nightmare. Keep answer vs fast token, and fetch properly.



Show and Tell: Most Unfavorable
ē This match-up is complicated, for one reason. When they resolve show and Tell, you donít know whatís coming. There are four options; Emrakul, Omnisceince, Griselbrand, and Sneak Attack. Its very hard to choose which card to reveal so Iím going to give you the most optimal choices to pick.
1.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Griselbrand, choose Knight or Karakas
2.) IF you predict that they are going to reveal Emrakul, choose Knight, karakas, or Sigarda.
3.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Omniscience, choose Thalia or Pridemage,
4.) If you predict that they are going to reveal Sneak Attack, choose Karakas or Pridemage
ē I would not try to jam stoneforge, but thatís your only way to apply pressure, then go for it. Knights and Sigardaís are your key beaters.
ē Beware cards: Pyroclasm/Kozliekís Return. Release the Ants combo. Sudden Shock. Try not to overextend. Jam Canonist as fast as possible, and then jam Priest in response to either Show and Tell or Sneak Attack.


I use here Chokes to close their cantrip route for perfect hand -> S&T -> Omni-> Emmy, also any discard is really needed. Many times you will have one Knight on hand and it's always question - if they counter it - they will S&T easily, but they don't know that it's last knight, so keep that in mind.


Deathblade/Stoneblade: 50/50
ē This will be a grindy game. They can come from different angles, but more of less. Eliminating the stoneblade part isnít the problem. True Name and Jace are problematic cards that you are just going to have to accept and start racing them. Scryb Ranger + Sophie helps in the air. They donít run that many non-creature spells. So donít focus on just jamming Thaliaís. Mom + Knight or just Sigarda is to way to win.
ē Beware cards: All sweepers. Sigarda + Sophie should be lightís out for them.

Without equips they mostly just an removal heavy deck, so attack their tricolor manabase. Fully agreed on your own equips and Sigarda. Safekeeper here is MVP, can push Knight here, but TNN can be problematic without SOFI - so don't lose it.



Storm: 50/50
ē Two things to note. One, which type of storm, because if your opponent is playing TES, then you want to jam as much creatures as you can because of goblins. The other note is that if you are playing against ANT. A resolve Gaddock Teeg wins the game. They donít have any MD cards to kill him.
ē This match you would want to mulligan aggressively. Because of the nature of this match, you need find a hatebear
ē Beware cards: Chain of Vapor, Dread of Night, Massacre, Abrade. Its important to know which two drop to jam. In order, its Canonist, then Gaddock Teeg, then Thalia. If you can avoid it, avoid playing a plains. Either use it from Horizon Canopy or mana dorks. But thatís the quickest way to lose your board control.

Gaddock close up Massacre :-), vs TES side in some Zealous Persecution against EtW plan, can be also useful to fake math and push additional damage.



4c Loam: Favorable.
ē This deck is resilient in a lot of ways. From recurring back lands to GSZ Knights, it can be problematic. I find that to win this match, Mom + Knight/Scryb Ranger is Key. Sigarda will protect you from LoTV. Donít allow them to have Bob, and swords their Knights. IF they are on the 20/20 plan, keep Scryb Ranger alive. Scaenging Ooze + Gaeaís Cradle will do a lot
ē Beware Cards: Toxic Deluge, Chandra, Tourch of Defiance, Leyline of the Void. Generally, you Donít really care about Leyline, but since we are running Excavator, this is needs to be removed at all cost.

Already described. Agree on all.



Eldrazi: Mostly Favorable.
ē Really simple. Donít even bother playing Mom or Thalia. Jam Knights and waste them out of the game. IF you suspect that they are White Eldrazi, then its ok playing Mom. Just donít jam Thalia,
ē Beware Cards: Endbringer/All is Dust/Karn. Endbringer is really annoying, the only way to remove this wanna be planeswalker is swords. Donít waste your Swords on the smaller creatures. TKS, RS, EB are the three biggest targets.
Path's and GQ will also have an edge. This and probably burn matchup are the only reason to still keeping Batterskull somewhere in 75, but it's not obligatory. Gaddock Teeg can be all start here against All is Dust.

Well done Thunderknight, a lot of work done.
Cheers !

RobNC
09-16-2017, 10:09 AM
My friend Ethan Gaieski did an analysis on Punishing Maverick that he posted on Reddit last night. I think sharing it with you fine folks would be swell!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/6zryut/morticiansunions_punishing_naya_maverick_decklist/

Reading this the other day made me excited to play Maverick again. Previous attempts went too far into black and made me far too reliant on DRS, but this way looks fun!

Rascalyote
09-18-2017, 05:11 AM
Played in an Eternal Weekend Trail this saturday, made top 4 and then we all split. Was running on no sleep, fueled purely by several sugary beverages as I had to work all throughout the night right before the event.

I was playing what looks on paper to be a complete mess of a list but I swear I put a bunch of thought into it. The 2 Hymns and Harm's Way in the board were the last 3 cards added and I was pretty much like "how does my current list ever beat burn, I don't want to play super narrow cards ... well I guess Harm's Way can also nail red delver decks and protect me from Koz. Return... Hymn is just Hymn."

Sideboard-15

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Harm's Way
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Surigcal Extraction

Main-60

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland
-23-

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
-13-

3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Renegade Rallier
4 Knight of the Reliquary
-24-

I'm playing the swamp over Gaea's Cradle to support me being deeper into black, having a black source that doesn't get nailed by wasteland and it's ilk really helps.

I've been really down on stoneforge package lately, it's too slow vs creature combo decks like elves//infect, almost impossible to stick to a creature against burn and the last matchup where it would be insane is vs slower control decks but a lot of those have Leovold and Sofi and Jitte are both pretty awk against him (I need to race so here you can draw a card and I won't...) I have an elspeth main so in those slower matchups I can jump over stuff like Leovold/TNN and kill them easily, sometimes you just have to ask yourself "what would kibler do".


Thoughtseize has been insane, the only matchups I feel where it's blegh are obviously burn (and burnlike decks ie UR Delver, and then we just swap it for IoK) The information itself helps us make our plays so much easier, now we know what to Zenith for and when to cast it, our deck has so many decisions to make and having information is so valuable. Discard can also act as protection for your guys by ripping removal or removal itself by ripping a card like True Name. It also makes our combo matchup way better when they not only have to deal with permanent based interaction, but discard as well. TLDR; Thoughtseize protec, but it also atac.

My 2nd pridemage became a renegade rallier, my reasoning was if I ever needed the 2nd cat it'd be late enough that I'd have the mana to go get a rallier -> cat instead and rallier has the upside of doing other stuff and is a huge tempo play.

I didn't really take notes and I was super tired so memory not too clear but I'll do my best.

Rd 1 vs Miracles ft Gideon and no Mentor

I win 2-1, game 1 was grindy after I turn 1 Thoughtseize his 6 taking his brainstorm and leaving him with lands, predict and a terminus. Elspeth domed him for 10 in the air putting him to 1 and even though he rips terminus into gideon kill elspeth he can't stabilize and some dork kills him after I drop a bunch fueled by my Sylvan Library. My maindeck seems really good vs this but I cut 2 plows for game 2 and then the rest of them for game 3 after I believe he's not on mentor and never pluses gideon vs open white. I bring in IoK's and then I believe a miser's Harm's Way ( for Koz Return) and a hymn but not 100% sure on what I boarded. Game 2 I lose after getting Koz Return -> Jace and I draw my 2 plows in a row. Game 3 is a blank space, sorry.

Rd 2 vs burn 2-1

This time it's my turn to mulligan to 6 on the draw my hand is decent but I just need that little bit more, I scry and see Thoughtseize "perfect!" I think, card will be great vs everything but burn! Op opens with turn 1 mountain -> Swiftspear...fk
I play a Deathrite and pass which gets searing blazed and I take 5 on turn 2, I never get back into the game.

In-

Harms Way (never draw it :( )
Golgari Charm
2 Hymn
2 Inquistion

Out-

3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth
1 Phrexian Revoker

Game 2 is a close one, IoK's were huge here and I get to see he has smash in his deck vs my no equipment :3 (just have to be careful playing revoker) There gets to be a point where I'm at 3 but I have an active knight and Im holding a plow that he knows about thanks to Guide, he eventually succumbs to deathrite drains.

Game 3 was close with a lot of trades, I remember throwing spare thalias in front of swiftspears that I know he can prowess just to get more life off my deathrite shamans. Near the end of the game I'm so far ahead I end up playing a revoker while knowing he has a smash in his hand "what do you name" "Abandon Hope" and a few turns later I drain him out with Scryb Ranger -> DRS take 4 on my turn, pass, on your upkeep kill you

Rd 3 vs UW Stoneblade 2-0

game 1 I start with turn 1 DRS then turn 2 Hierarch attack for 2 with shaman turn 3 Elspeth which meets brainstorm into force of will. I get a sylvan library online while I'm at 25 (fun fact I take myself down to 3 just with my library this game). I get supreme verdicted some time during this game but that's ok. My opponent stoneforges for a jitte and I pridemage it then Zenith for rallier getting back pridemage. Near the end of the game I have Arbor, mom and noble in play and he's on pretty much no cards. He plays a Palace Jailer and mom gives my creature a get out of jail free card. I mom my arbor past the jailer on my turn and take the crown(tm) just drawing so many cards at this point. He dies shortly after.

In

2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
2 Inqusition of Kozilek

Out

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Swords to Plowshares

I didn't see truename game 1 but I'm kind of scared of it. I cut a plow because the only creatures I really saw game 1 were Snapcaster and SFM.

Game 2 I have noble into pridmage and I just start wailing on him for 4 a turn. I get a mom and teeg set up sometime and continue to bash him with double exalted. He tries to verdict at some point and I just point at my teeg, he dies this game without putting up much of a fight.

Rd 4

I pick Zelda at the character select screen and hit down - B, instantly jumping 20 spots in the tier list. Despite this I still lose to Young Link due to being bad ... As for magic it was 5 rounds and I can just draw -> draw into top 8 like the degen spike I am (Kappa)

Top 8, everyone talks about splitting the top 8 and I kinda don't want to but I'm not going to be "that" guy and I'll split if everyone else wants to. Thankfully my friend Gamon is that guy so we play the quarters, I'm playing against my friend on storm who knows my exact list.

Quarters - ANT 2-0

He gets to be on the play and he starts with turn 1 Badlands -> Cabal Therapy naming Thoughtseize ... thanks friend, he hits. This makes me believe he can go off the next turn if he didn't name something like Thalia so I decide instead of playing Deathrite I'll do the only play I have left that can disrupt him, I wasteland his badlands. His next turn I forget if he cantrips or not but he plays another land. My turn consists of Bayou and deathrite shaman. His turn 3 is an Ad Nauseum with 0 mana floating but he has his land drop, the kicker though is that his only copy of Tendrils was discard with Lion's Eye Diamond so 1- if he passes my deathrite eats it and 2- he needs to go off with past in flames. He prays to the storm gods and I pray to Gamon to make this Ad Naus burn him out(fitting as he's the reason why I'm playing this game and he's on burn.) He hits a land and a bunch of rituals and a dark petition but he has to keep going as he can't make red for past in flames, he needs a lotus petal. After hitting several cabal therapies he finally dies, serves you right for blind therapying my Thoughtseize <3.

Out
3 Mother
1 Scryb
4 Plow
1 Elsepeth
1 Library
1 Knight
1 Rallier
1 Noble

In

2 Canonist
1 Harm's Way
2 Zealous
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn
2 Inquisition
3 Surical

Game 2 I rip his hand apart and am holding a golgari charm (holding for regen) with Canonist, Revoker and Deathrite in play. He empties for 2 goblins off 4 lands just to hold back my hatebears as I continue to drain him with deathrite. At one point he has rending volley and 3 others I dont know and I draw hymn to tourach. Now here comes the sleep deprived potato play; I remember drawing Hymn and being like "now okay if I play this I can't golgari charm to protect my canonist from rending volley" then I tap my 2 black lands for hymn and he rending volleys my canonist and I look at my board I'm like "Oh deathrite makes black, I can play charm!" and I tap my shaman to make black just to remember I can't cast it because of my canonist so I leave him with 1 card and I theoretically gave him some past in flames out as I tapped my shaman for no reason but it doesn't come back to bite me and I win the game anyways, yay.

Then we split the top 4 and I go and sleep.

Cpt-Qc
09-19-2017, 01:55 AM
Any of you have extensive testing against Czech pile? I know it's not usually regarded as good but I'm really tempted to side in surgicals against them. A key target would be Kcommand but I'm wondering if it's worth it after they already blew one equipment.

I'm not sure what to bring in against them. just as much removal as you can muster and hope for the best? Most decks can work their way around choke so I'm hesitant to even put one in my board.

Edit: I've actually decided to cut canonist atm (between 0 and 1 storm each week, I did not side it in for a few months) so I've got 2 slots to dedicate to control decks. One is locked on library but I'm unsure about the second one (choke, Garruk, etc)

pettdan
09-19-2017, 05:01 AM
Any of you have extensive testing against Czech pile? I know it's not usually regarded as good but I'm really tempted to side in surgicals against them. A key target would be Kcommand but I'm wondering if it's worth it after they already blew one equipment.

I'm not sure what to bring in against them. just as much removal as you can muster and hope for the best? Most decks can work their way around choke so I'm hesitant to even put one in my board.

Edit: I've actually decided to cut canonist atm (between 0 and 1 storm each week, I did not side it in for a few months) so I've got 2 slots to dedicate to control decks. One is locked on library but I'm unsure about the second one (choke, Garruk, etc)

I have only played a little bit of Maverick lately, so read my comment with that in mind.

I believe Choke has gotten a lot better since a) Grixis Decks including Czech Pile became one of the top decks to beat, they (Czech Pile at least) are mana hungry and usually don't have a single answer to a resolved Choke [Edit: checked a few lists, they actually had 1-2 answers, guess I'm leaning on old or local information]. Also another more or less popular blue-based control deck vs which you may want Choke is Miracles. Choke used to be pretty disappointing vs them but that probably changed, because a) they started cutting Wear/Tear from the board which enabled blowouts vs equipment+choke (I'm not sure if they are back in), and b) running a blue-based cantrip-shell instead of the previous SDT means they have to tap an island whenever they want to look at fresh cards, no more plains-enabled topping. I upped to 2 Chokes a few months ago, I like it. I think Choke is also pretty good (in Maverick) vs Food Chain and Alluren, not sure how prevalent they are in the current meta but when grind is the flavor of the meta I would think that grind-combo has an advantage.

timmyod17
09-19-2017, 06:56 AM
Edit: I've actually decided to cut canonist atm (between 0 and 1 storm each week, I did not side it in for a few months) so I've got 2 slots to dedicate to control decks. One is locked on library but I'm unsure about the second one (choke, Garruk, etc)

I dislike any sideboard without at least one Canonist. It has applications beyond just Storm. It's a key card vs Elves, Sneak and Show, Aluren, Food Chain among others.

menloe
09-19-2017, 09:44 AM
Any of you have extensive testing against Czech pile? I know it's not usually regarded as good but I'm really tempted to side in surgicals against them. A key target would be Kcommand but I'm wondering if it's worth it after they already blew one equipment.

I'm not sure what to bring in against them. just as much removal as you can muster and hope for the best? Most decks can work their way around choke so I'm hesitant to even put one in my board.

Edit: I've actually decided to cut canonist atm (between 0 and 1 storm each week, I did not side it in for a few months) so I've got 2 slots to dedicate to control decks. One is locked on library but I'm unsure about the second one (choke, Garruk, etc)

The question for me isn't if I will run Choke, but how many. I never leave home without at least one copy.

What's the rest of your sideboard look like?

Stuart
09-19-2017, 01:56 PM
I'm kinda mulling over the same question, as there's a decent amount of blue midrange locally. My sideboard is currently:

1 Scooze
1 Rec Sage
1 Crucible Man
1 Choke
2 Canonist
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
3 Surgical
1 Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution

The problem I'm facing is that I want to bring in a lot of this shit (Scooze, Choke, Edict, ZP, and to a lesser extent Ramunap). However, I don't feel like the Maverick maindeck has that many cards I want to cut against Czech, Grixis, or Stoneblade. Sooo basically I have no useful input on this, but would love to hear how other Maverick pilots are navigating the blue midrange situation.

Fatal
09-19-2017, 03:39 PM
Looking for similar solution against Czech Pile, I found it's not favorable actually. Until last week I had heavy mana daniel plan including GQ. But last tournament I faced Czech Pile with more then standard list basics and lost. They run a lot of removal (Bolts, Decay's, Pushes, Deluge and K.Command) with 4 Snapcasters it's really hard to stick any threads on table.
Equips vs them are rather poor since K.Command blow them with value - not recommended.

I analyze their standard build and found:

- a chance with mana daniel plan, since most of their removal required many colors, but at the end their build can be optimized against us (more basics for example, and more pushes and deluges).
- a change to Gravehate them: Shamans, Angler, K.Command and 4 Snapcasters require graveyard to work well, Ooze isn't best solution since they have a lot of answers against it, best would be probably Leyline of the Void
- they can't destroy enchantments with CMC > 3. So any enchantment which will give hugh value will do the job - still looking good one
- they can't destroy lands, so option with TS/DD can also do the job, other option is to gain value with for example Yavimaya Hollow looks promising - require a test
- they don't exile our creatures so graveyard is full of them in mid-late game.

Cards to test against, all of them are with CMC > 3 and are against UB/x slow control decks with tons of removal, which doesn't exile:
Martyr's Bond one of my favorite card from EDH, 6 mana could be too much but effect is constant and very powerful, you can blow their lands with fetchlands, and destroy easily their creatures

Nether Void this card was mention since it also works against many other decks, with snapcaster with it is off, it also require cavern of Souls to be not locked out by self.

Snake Pit this card is cheapest in mana, and have the smallest impact, but it's still very good one - reverse young pyromancer, which trigger on each of their spells ? Yes, please.

Verdant Succession my favorite found since last research - this basically is game over each creature which are multiple will back on action - their shamans won't since we use plows.

Gutter Grime an other slow over value it easily creature bigger and bigger threads. It trigger very time any creature card goes to your GY.

Living Death Last interesting approach - flip the table and kill all his threads and bring back all yours :-).

TMagpie
09-19-2017, 04:17 PM
I rarely if ever lose to either Czeck Pile or Esper/Bant Stoneblade decks. Jeskai Stoneblade has been the only one giving me troubles and only if they use the old lists from the Treasure Cruise era. Everything they have is just straight up worse than what we have...

I also run Dark Depths so often I just need to untap with KotR twice and they die on end step. Forces them to have to save up their removal but they can't since everything else the deck resolves is also scary. For the most part, they just run out of cards against me.

mgrinshpon
09-19-2017, 04:18 PM
For what it's worth, I think Punishing Fire is where Maverick may want to be right now. I played a pair of Czech Piles at EE7 and never lost a round (2-0 and 2-1). The exact list, including the board, is here: https://deckbox.org/sets/1802850 and my boarding strategy was as follows:
Out: -2 Noble Hierarch, -2 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Qasali Pridemage
In: +2 Pyroblast, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Ramunap Exacator, +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant, +1 Fiery Justice

Adding Punishing Fire is huge game against Czech Pile because you are dramatically more mana-efficient with an effect every turn, plus the added percentage points against Hymn to Tourach. Additionally, it invalidates nearly all of their creatures save Leovold, Gurmag Angler, and True-Name Nemesis, of which Swords to Plowshares hammers through two of the three anyway. Punishing Fire also pressures their planeswalkers and hurts Liliana of the Veil.

While the game is going to be grindy, you will probably be out-ground if you take the back seat. Deathrite Shaman is public enemy number one in these matchups since it hurts both Knight of the Reliquary and Ramunap Excavator, of which the former is formidable enough to just attack right into Gurmags and True-Names all day. In fact, Knight often gets so large, that a resolved True-Name Nemesis is just not a problem since it can never attack for fear of death by 10/10 Magus of the Crop Rotation. A second Knight or a few other attackers is all it takes for lights out. My reasoning with siding out Noble Hierarch is that I won't be playing around soft permission like Daze so I want my average card quality to be higher. While I have never tested the matchup against Sneak and Show and am unsure if I can cut the 4th blast effect for something more relevant, I know that I really want either Arlinn Kord or Chandra, Pyromaster for this matchup in particular. Even so, it's felt roughly even.

Fatal
09-19-2017, 05:36 PM
For what it's worth, I think Punishing Fire is where Maverick may want to be right now. I played a pair of Czech Piles at EE7 and never lost a round (2-0 and 2-1). The exact list, including the board, is here: https://deckbox.org/sets/1802850 and my boarding strategy was as follows:
Out: -2 Noble Hierarch, -2 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Qasali Pridemage
In: +2 Pyroblast, +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Ramunap Exacator, +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant, +1 Fiery Justice

Adding Punishing Fire is huge game against Czech Pile because you are dramatically more mana-efficient with an effect every turn, plus the added percentage points against Hymn to Tourach. Additionally, it invalidates nearly all of their creatures save Leovold, Gurmag Angler, and True-Name Nemesis, of which Swords to Plowshares hammers through two of the three anyway. Punishing Fire also pressures their planeswalkers and hurts Liliana of the Veil.

While the game is going to be grindy, you will probably be out-ground if you take the back seat. Deathrite Shaman is public enemy number one in these matchups since it hurts both Knight of the Reliquary and Ramunap Excavator, of which the former is formidable enough to just attack right into Gurmags and True-Names all day. In fact, Knight often gets so large, that a resolved True-Name Nemesis is just not a problem since it can never attack for fear of death by 10/10 Magus of the Crop Rotation. A second Knight or a few other attackers is all it takes for lights out. My reasoning with siding out Noble Hierarch is that I won't be playing around soft permission like Daze so I want my average card quality to be higher. While I have never tested the matchup against Sneak and Show and am unsure if I can cut the 4th blast effect for something more relevant, I know that I really want either Arlinn Kord or Chandra, Pyromaster for this matchup in particular. Even so, it's felt roughly even.

Agreed that Punishing Maverick is better against anything with discard, works well also vs walkers and Strix, same is true as Snaps aggro :-).

There is also drawback:
- Worst manabase - less food for Knight, more waste-able, less fetchlands
- Less room in SB/MD (4 slots taken by Pif)
- Disynergy with Thalia,
- less black so no room for good answers vs other not great MU like Elves and TNN,
- more graveyard dependent so rest in peace can be a hoser.
It's good vs midrange UB/x decks like Czech Pile, but much worst vs for example UW stoneblade with 4 TNN. I also doesn't agree about completely absent of Deathrite Shaman, many times removing opponent graveyard card by card gives important advantage.

I'm missing a lot of cards on sb - like Ethersworn Canonist, I played with Fire against Elves and it's just too slow, specially after Glimpse Blow.

I like pyro effects, which are very good against Jace, Snaps, Delver, and S&T.

Interesting how works for you 3 Sanctum Pralate in SB on which matchups you side them in, and what you name, more over how you deal with D&T after SB. Looks like Rest in peace can be very hard to deal.
I doesn't agree to side out Thalia against Grixis Delver - it's very good card against them I would rather cut some BoPs before, since it slow down Pyromancer a lot, and just can lock them - try them.

Question does 3 Surgical are really so important here - I think it's overextend. Vs B/R Reanimator strict I would rather get some Fearie Macabre since they can't be discarded.

Cpt-Qc
09-19-2017, 06:28 PM
I dislike any sideboard without at least one Canonist. It has applications beyond just Storm. It's a key card vs Elves, Sneak and Show, Aluren, Food Chain among others.

No elves in my meta either and in other Matchups Prelate works just as well.

mgrinshpon
09-19-2017, 07:07 PM
There is also drawback:
- Worst manabase - less food for Knight, more waste-able, less fetchlands
- Less room in SB/MD (4 slots taken by Pif)
- Disynergy with Thalia,
- less black so no room for good answers vs other not great MU like Elves and TNN,
- more graveyard dependent so rest in peace can be a hoser.
It's good vs midrange UB/x decks like Czech Pile, but much worst vs for example UW stoneblade with 4 TNN. I also doesn't agree about completely absent of Deathrite Shaman, many times removing opponent graveyard card by card gives important advantage.
For reference, Fatal is referencing some boarding notes that I had on my list in the deck notes. Link is here: https://deckbox.org/sets/1802850. Board notes are:

D&T: -1 Gaddock Teeg, -3 Thalia, +1 Elspeth, +1 Fiery Justice, +1 Ramunap Excavator, +1 Sylvan Library
Grixis Delver: +4 REBs, +1 Fiery Justice, -1 Qasali, -1 Teeg, -3 Thalia
Czech: +4 REBs, +1 Sylvan, +1 Elspeth, +1 Ramunap, +1 FJ, -2 SFM, -1 SoFaI, -1 Jitte, -1 Qasali, -1 StP, -2 Noble Hierarch



I'm missing a lot of cards on sb - like Ethersworn Canonist, I played with Fire against Elves and it's just too slow, specially after Glimpse Blow.
The original list had Blazing Volley but I felt as though it was too narrow and I ended up cutting it. Elves is definitely not a good matchup with this configuration but I wasn't expecting a lot of it at EE7. In an open meta, I'd probably cut a Pyroblast for something more useful and a Sanctum Prelate for an Ethersworn Canonist maybe but that hurts the Lands matchup significantly since Prelate on 2 means their only out is a Crop Rotation for Barbarian Ring, a resource already stretched with Knight of the Reliquary (they can PFire KotR and rotate for a Bojuka Bog to kill it).


I like pyro effects, which are very good against Jace, Snaps, Delver, and S&T.
I actually want to cut one. I'm leaning towards Qasali Pridemage, Chandra, Pyromaster, or a second Fiery Justice, in that order. EDIT: Also, Dusk // Dawn looks promising.


Interesting how works for you 3 Sanctum Pralate in SB on which matchups you side them in, and what you name, more over how you deal with D&T after SB. Looks like Rest in peace can be very hard to deal.
Sneak and Show (3, 2), Storm (0, 2; due to Combust and Infernal Tutor), Lands (2, 2 again, 1 if I somehow get that lucky), Cloudpost (3, 2), Burn (2), Dragon Stompy (3+a Gaddock Teeg is a hard lock), Reanimator (2, then 1 if possible), and other random spell-heavy matchups that are not Czech Pile. The card is quite good in some of Maverick's worst matchups.

Rest in Peace can be beating, but it appears to have become less popular of late. Save your Pridemages, I guess!


I doesn't agree to side out Thalia against Grixis Delver - it's very good card against them I would rather cut some BoPs before, since it slow down Pyromancer a lot, and just can lock them - try them.
I don't know if what I'm doing is "right" exactly, but my approach to Delver is to become the big mana control deck. My creatures are bigger and better than theirs could ever hope to be and I have more of them than they have removal in general, so if I can just stick my removal and keep my mana sources alive, I'll win. As such, post-board, I become much more spell-heavy with this configuration which is an anti-pattern with Thalia. If they have a mana open, which they will if they're ahead on board, Thalia turns their Dazes into Spell Pierces. If they're behind on board, I'm winning anyway, so Thalia doesn't matter that much. If I can just stick my removal and follow that removal up with any creature with nonzero power and toughness, I'll be set. Also, most Grixis Delver lists are cutting down on Fatal Pushes and going up on Lightning Bolt, so Scavenging Ooze is fantastic again and generally a late game bomb.

I can't imagine cutting Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch to ever be a good call- it's mana in a matchup where your early game is defined by how constrained you are on mana.


Question does 3 Surgical are really so important here - I think it's overextend. Vs B/R Reanimator strict I would rather get some Fearie Macabre since they can't be discarded.
I cut Containment Priest since I hated the card so I wanted to have something for graveyard hate that isn't dissynergistic, so no Grafdigger's Cage, no Containment Priest, etc. Options are Surgical, Relic of Progenitus (hurts my own Knight of the Reliquaries), Leyline of the Void (nearly uncastable and I have no looting effects to get rid of it), Ground Seal (bad against Lands and Reanimator still can Exhume, but excellent against Deathrite Shaman decks), and Faerie Macabre (nearly uncastable). Reanimator is a really bad matchup- no way to skate around everything.

Cpt-Qc
09-20-2017, 01:05 AM
So I ended up crushing 3 blade decks tonight (Bant, UW Stoneblade, DnT) ending at 3-0-1 . The third game would also have been a win if it weren't for time constraint.

I'm pretty sure dropping canonist was the right call as it allows me to side in 8 cards in most fair matchups. According I have some acceleration, Prelate does the job better against most decks except elves (which I haven't seen in at least 4 months). On many occasions Blessed alliance was king tonight. I mostly used sac a creature mode but also gain life one (my moms never really survived to activation so the third mode stayed dormant).


The question for me isn't if I will run Choke, but how many. I never leave home without at least one copy.

What's the rest of your sideboard look like?

The sideboard I used tonight was as follow:

2x Sanctum Prelate
1x Choke
1x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution
3x Thoughtseize

HungryMan
09-20-2017, 02:26 AM
I played the Punishing Maverick List from Reddit (with 2 Changes to the 75) at MKM Series Hamburg (299 Players).
I didn't take notes on sideboarding, so here is just a small summary.

List:

Lands (22)
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Spells (14)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures (24)
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Sideboard (15)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Fiery Justice
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroblast
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sylvan Library


Round 1 vs Elves
2-1
Lost Game 1 to Craterhoof, won games 2 and 3 on the back of Punishing Fire, Teeg and Sanctum Prelates.

Round 2 vs RB Reanimator
2-1
Lost Game 1 vs Griselbrad, won games 2 and 3

Round 3 vs Cloudpost Eldrazi
2-0
Wastelands are good, also knight laughs at TKS

Round 4 vs FoodChain
0-2
Didn't see Foodchain in game 1 only Leo and DRS so i boarded out Qasali, then lost game 2 to the combo.

Round 5 vs TinFins
2-1
Lost game 1: He reanimates Griselbrand turn 1 or 2 and Tendrils me a turn later.
Game 2 he shows 2 Chancellors on his starting 7, i play turn 1 birds into the trigger. His turn one is Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize himself, discard Chancellor, Animate Dead. I have play turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mom and turn 4 Scryb Ranger. After that he never does anything anymore.
Game 3 he mulls to 6 an kept a greedy 1-lander. I mull to 5 and Thalia locks him out before he finds a 2nd land.

Round 6 vs Omnitell (this player won the swiss and eventually the Top8 as well.)
0-2
I play 3 lands and 3 creatures in both games combined.

Round 7 vs 12Post
2-0
I win both games with turn 1 manadork, turn 2 Thalia + Wasteland

Round 8 vs Czeck Pile
0-2
I lose 2 very grindy and close games. At one point in game 2 i play Elspeth, after that I have no white sources open and 2 STP in hand, he has a Jace in play. On his turn he plays Snapcaster, flashback a Bolt, bouce the Snapcaster with Jace, replay Snap and flashback Forked Bolt to kill Elspeth. :(

Round 9 vs UR Delver
2-1
Game 1 he wins with TNN.
Game 2 i win with SoFaI on Birds.
Game 3 I win by chaining all 3 equipments.


After 9 rounds 6-3 in matches for place 46 out of 299.

MVPs were the sanctum prelates. I think I will get a 3rd one and drop the Library for it.

After playing the black version for a long time I'm happy with the result and expect for the Omnitell Games never felt at a huge disadvantage vs the combo decks.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Strassbaw
10-10-2017, 12:35 PM
I've been playing Punishing Dark Maverick for several years. I play Deathrite Shaman with Pun, and only splash one Bayou. I feel like Planeswalkers are very powerful against the control decks, and equipment are risky, so I am only running 2 Jitte main, and no Stoneforge Mystic. Below I will list some cards I like, and some cards I am not sure about. I think Maverick has potential in this meta, and together, we can help optimize the deck.

Good cards in the current meta game:

Deathrite shaman: I think this card is worth playing in any build of Maverick, even with a very light splash. If you play Punishing Fire, I think this card is still worth playing, even though the mana base looks greedy. This card give the deck so much more range, and in a meta infested with Deathrite Shaman, it acts like removal for opposing Deathrite Shamans.

Punishing Fire: This card really makes the deck go into the late game with a lot of success. Most control decks are forced to run creatures, and this card kills creatures and Planeswalkers. This card makes can tax our mana base, and so far its been the only issue running both Deathrite and Punishing Fire. I am considering upping my mana dork count from 6 to 7 mana dorks (4 Deathrite shaman, 1 Birds of paradise, and 1 Noble Hierarchy) as mana has been the primary reason for my losses. I am also considering running a second Sylvan Library to help my mana and keep me from having bad draws.

Dark Depths/ Thespian stage: I have really enjoyed this combo. It has allowed me to win a lot of games I wouldn't win normally. Against decks that run Price of Progress, its easy to board out, and this card allows me to go over the top when Knight of the Reliquary untaps. I wouldn't leave home without this card, as I feel like it makes Knight of the Reliquary deadly under any situation.

PlanesWalkers: I have had a lot of success with walkers in my deck. The three walkers I would recommend would be Garruk Relentless, Ajani Vengeant, and Elspeth, Knight Errant (if getting white mana is not an issue for your). I would like to try some other planes walkers but I haven'd had the time to test them all. I would like to test Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Gideon Jura but I do not own them, and I am worried about the double red and the double white mana to cast the walkers. Currently I play Garruk Relentless and Ajani Vengeant, and I have considered a third walker if Pile and Miracles grow in numbers.

Sylvan Library: I normally do not play this card. Right now I think its a good choice. I have been having white mana issues in my deck, and this card has helped out. I have considered running an extra land, but right now I am considering running a second library main to help out with the constancy issues I have been facing recently.

Sanctum Prelate: I highly recommend this card. This card is flexible, has legs, and can be played turn 2 with a mana dork. The issue is that its double white to cast, and that can be rough. I think this card is very powerful right now, and people should play it at 2 or more in the sideboard.

Cards I am unsure about:
Ramunap Excavator: This card has been good in theory, but I have often perfered a Life From the Loam in the place of this card. I have not had many if any situations where I would Green Sun's Zenith for this card over a Knight of the Reliquary, and having a 3 mana card that only can produce mana if you play it turn 3 with a mana dork, or turn 4 without a mana dork doesn't feel great. I am not certain this card is worth playing.

Sylvan Safekeeper: I really enjoyed this card in theory, but I feel like its too bad of an early game card to play. Mother of Runes seems better in most every case (besides trying to force a Marit Lage, or being active the turn you play it), and I feel like its a cool target for Green Sun's Zenith, but probably not worth it.

Maze of Ith: I always run Thespian Stage/ Dark Depths, so maybe my opinion is skewed, but I haven't enjoyed playing this card. I feel like its a bad top deck, and its rare that I would want to search for this card instead of another card with Knight of the Reliquary. Its seems good in a meta game with Delver and Eldrazi, but True-Named Nemesis may invalidate this card. That True-Named Nemesis is some bull poop if you ask me.

Stoneforge Mystic: This card is an great card. No doubt about it. I will not fault anyone for running this card. The issue is that main deck removal for artifacts is abundant, and its a touch slow to beat the delver decks. Running Batterskull in a deck with Stoneforge Mystic always seems correct, and running 2-3 Mystic doesn't feel great. Running 4 mystic seems like too many, and make me want to run 3-4 equipment, making artifact removal even more problematic. I prefer Planeswalker at the moment to Stoneforge mystic as they are less vulnerable and against delver decks, these cards can be side boarded out because they are too expensive. I have tested Sword of Light and Shadow, and the card seems solid if you choose to run Stoneforge Mystic package in high numbers, but I would find another card for the deck. I also like Manriki Gusari in the sideboard if you run 3-4 Stoneforge Mystic.

Life from the Loam: I run Deathrite shaman, and Deathrite Shaman is very common to play against. This card used to be a staple in Punishing Maverick, however, running Deathrite shaman and playing against Deathrite Shaman has made this card less useful. I think its a great card in magic, but not for my deck in the current meta, and the way my deck has been outfitted.

Crop Rotation in the side board: I have really enjoyed this tech coming out of the board. It is really powerful when you run a Bojuka Bog, DD/Stage, Karakas, Maze, etc. but I'm not sure its better than other cards we would be playing instead. I like it because its flexible, but I'm not sure if its powerful enough for us to play without running weird cards like Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, etc.

Choke: This card was a powerhouse in the Miracle meta. I took it out, and now I've added it back in with the surge in control decks. The biggest issues with this card is that I do not like it against Delver decks. Being three mana makes it so that you can be losing on the board when you play it, and fall too far behind, and Deathrite Shaman could give them the mana they need to end the game. Its great when its in play, but will it be too late by the time you cast it. Daze gives them the ability to counter it as its expensive, and perhaps even reuse mana to play again after they tapped their island.

Pyroblast: I play red in my deck, so this card is always an option. I don't feel great about playing reactive narrow cards that make me keep mana up over playing threats. I am not playing it currently, but I may reconsider playing it. I do not like that it doesn't kill True-Named Nemesis unless you counter it, and that card seems to be the card I have issues with the most against delver.

Leovold, Emissary of Trest: This card is great and I think it can be an easy splash for Maverick that doesn't run Punishing Fire. I have considered it in my deck, however, it probably isn't worth it in my build with all of the mana problems. My concern with the card is that when would player choose to get this card over Gaddock Teeg or Knight of the Reliquary when casting a Green Sun's Zenith. Against Combo, Teeg stops them out right, and against fair decks, Knight is almost always the best choice.

Tireless Tracker:My concern with this card is the same as Levold and Ramunap. When would you choose this card over Knight with Green Sun's Zenith? Perhaps its good enough to play on its on, as it has a lot of great end game potential, but I'm not sure its better than just running a planeswalker in its place.

Scryb Ranger: I have never played this card in Punishing Maverick. I cannot comment on it. My gut says its not good enough, but I have no way to justify that. I think I would sooner run another copy of Ooze or Pridemage than play one of these.

Thanks for reading. Feedback is appreciated. I welcome discussion on the topic. Maverick has had some success recently, and not a lot of talk has come after the fact.

Skizz
10-12-2017, 02:50 AM
just a question to those who wanted to make the thread new/fresh.
do you still need some help in writing or are you finished soon?

havent played much in the last 2 months, but im splashing leovold in my gw/b list recently and if find nothing bad about it (switched a forrest for a tropical)

are there any good blue cards that would be worth a sideboard slot? im probably not doing this (because of the bad manabase) just thought about it :rolleyes:

Rascalyote
10-12-2017, 04:11 AM
just a question to those who wanted to make the thread new/fresh.
do you still need some help in writing or are you finished soon?

havent played much in the last 2 months, but im splashing leovold in my gw/b list recently and if find nothing bad about it (switched a forrest for a tropical)

are there any good blue cards that would be worth a sideboard slot? im probably not doing this (because of the bad manabase) just thought about it :rolleyes:

I was thinking of playing Leovold but I wouldn't play a tropical - Though I've tested it years ago (before DRS, when we were just GW) with Spell Pierces in the board and it was ok, but I don't think we need anything like that atm.

@ The post with all the cards.

The cards I'm unsure of are Stoneforge Mystic and Stage/Depths (I am playing them both atm but have done well with lists without either). When I play Depths I play it over a spell and I play the stage over my extra land slot (I don't like playing Cradle). Stage isn't just a dead card when you don't draw depths though, it's really strong against lands (copy their maze, karakas, depths, etc.) and even copying something like a dryad arbor can get there, it's a very contextual card.

SFM can be clunky and slow like "turn 2 play my guy, turn 3 cheat in my equip, turn 4 equ- oh you stopped me because you saw it coming for 2 turns..." and your equips line up poorly against K. Command//Leovold (which is the major control deck of the format and we want our SFM for the control matchup.... awk?). I am back on the SFM package though because I like how you have the "everyone's a hero" gameplan where they wipe you or kill all you dudes or whatever but every single creature you play is a huge threat - If I were to play a planeswalker in my list over SFM package it'd be Elsepth because she accomplishes that same goal and she lines up really well against TNN//Leo//W.e durdle and she's really resilient always going up but the issue for me with maining a PWer is that I don't want to rely on drawing this 1of that I can't tutor or look for at all (though she's in my SB atm and I'm sure I'll MD her again).

Sylvan library is good, when I cut stoneforge I usually like to put in 2 copies of library because I have the added room for my list.

I don't play red but if you're playing mother of runes then I'd play Scryb Ranger (I like to call Ranger + Mom the "fair lock"), it's also our only flyer which is important.

I'm really high on thoughtseize and have 4 in the main I play them over my flex slots (so like over tracker, excavator, the librarys back in - stuff like that). I feel like it makes up for our lack of blue (IE Force of Will) and just gives us a much better fighting chance against our opponents gameplan. *of course I wouldn't play them if I was on red =p*

Also @ the tournament report, rd5 vs tinfins you played Thalia on turn 2 against Chancellor. Did he just miss the trigger?

shallowend
10-12-2017, 06:47 AM
Really interesting to hear everyone discussing punishing maverick as the current direction of travel. I have moved away from punishing to junk maverick to maximise deathrite, have better answers to true name nemesis and access to thoughtseize which is a card I have been extremely impressed by.

I continue to play a main deck renegade rallier for the double wasteland turns it enables (or to rebuy teeg and thalia in combo matches)

re- splash leovold.
This feels very greedy to me. When are people searching for him?



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Rascalyote
10-12-2017, 08:26 AM
Really interesting to hear everyone discussing punishing maverick as the current direction of travel. I have moved away from punishing to junk maverick to maximise deathrite, have better answers to true name nemesis and access to thoughtseize which is a card I have been extremely impressed by.

I continue to play a main deck renegade rallier for the double wasteland turns it enables (or to rebuy teeg and thalia in combo matches)

re- splash leovold.
This feels very greedy to me. When are people searching for him?



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Rallier has been really good to me, you always get those moments where you're like "man I wish I had 1 more copy of ooze/cat/ranger in my deck" and Rallier can get yours back. Or you do something like play a turn 2 thalia/library, they kill it just for you to rally it back - really versatile card.

Thoughtseize is love <3 I can't see myself leaving black, seeing dnt players consider cards like Holy Light over Zealous because they can't make black makes me shudder.

TheStalk
10-12-2017, 11:02 AM
Given that Czech Pile is the "hot" deck of the moment, and how poorly the SfM package lines up against that deck (on top of how poor it is vs combo), has anyone considered giving Thalia, Heretic Cathar a spin in some of those slots? We have dorks to power her out on turn 2, at which point their mana development grinds to a halt, and the 3/2 first strike body allows her to rumble through all their creatures save Gurmag Angler. Although not necessarily game breaking in all match-ups, her ability to slow down the mana development from other 3+ color decks and to buy time vs. Sneak & Show/Elves seems to be really well positioned right now. Thoughts?

shallowend
10-12-2017, 11:18 AM
Given that Czech Pile is the "hot" deck of the moment, and how poorly the SfM package lines up against that deck (on top of how poor it is vs combo), has anyone considered giving Thalia, Heretic Cathar a spin in some of those slots? We have dorks to power her out on turn 2, at which point their mana development grinds to a halt, and the 3/2 first strike body allows her to rumble through all their creatures save Gurmag Angler. Although not necessarily game breaking in all match-ups, her ability to slow down the mana development from other 3+ color decks and to buy time vs. Sneak & Show/Elves seems to be really well positioned right now. Thoughts?I considered it when building for a recent event, but i think the one of answers need to be green for gsz. This is where we get our edge by consistently being able to find the answer or threat we need.

That said sfm is losing stock ever time I play (but jitte is too good to leave behind). A diversity of threats could be the answer.



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TheStalk
10-12-2017, 12:15 PM
I considered it when building for a recent event, but i think the one of answers need to be green for gsz. This is where we get our edge by consistently being able to find the answer or threat we need.

That said sfm is losing stock ever time I play (but jitte is too good to leave behind). A diversity of threats could be the answer.



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Your point is fair, but I don't think you'd want to include THC as only a one-of. Assuming we're cutting the SFM package completely (which may sound like heresy, but I honestly think it would be for the best in the current meta), that's 6 free slots. I'm thinking at least 2 big Thalias, possibly 3. Having slammed her on turn 1-2 on many occasions playing Thalia Stompy, I can guarantee that she's no joke when accelerated out, and between 4-6 dorks + GSZ for Dryad Arbor, we have pretty good odds of playing her t2 if she's in our opener.

menloe
10-12-2017, 12:27 PM
Dark Depths/ Thespian stage: I have really enjoyed this combo. It has allowed me to win a lot of games I wouldn't win normally. Against decks that run Price of Progress, its easy to board out, and this card allows me to go over the top when Knight of the Reliquary untaps. I wouldn't leave home without this card, as I feel like it makes Knight of the Reliquary deadly under any situation.

I agree totally. I have never regretted having the combo in my deck; I have regretted not having the combo in my deck. There are many problematic board states that are very cleanly resolved by tutoring for a Marit Lage with KotR. It also makes KotR a powerful threat even when it's a 2/2 because you have no lands in the graveyard and gives the deck something unfair to do.

This is why I like Punishing Maverick. The deck has multiple axes that are enabled by KotR. You can grab a Grove of the Burnwillows to bring your Punishing Fire combo online, you can grab the DD+Stage combo to end the game, and you can just beat face like with huge knights like the other variants. (FWIW, I tend to associate DD+Stage with Punishing Maverick since most of the lists I've seen run it over Gaea's Cradle while most GWb lists run Cradle over the combo.)


Ramunap Excavator: This card has been good in theory, but I have often perfered a Life From the Loam in the place of this card. I have not had many if any situations where I would Green Sun's Zenith for this card over a Knight of the Reliquary, and having a 3 mana card that only can produce mana if you play it turn 3 with a mana dork, or turn 4 without a mana dork doesn't feel great. I am not certain this card is worth playing.

Maybe it's because I'm only running one or two and I never feel like I'd win a game GSZing for Ramunap, but the snake just hasn't come down in enough games for me to feel comfortable making an assessment.

I will say it's more of a workhorse, as you say, than a superstar in that usually it just helps you boost on mana after turn 3ish. This can help you make a couple extra plays a game, so it seems to be more in the incremental advantage generator category. The most spectacular thing it did for me was rebuy a DD after sticking it to bait a Wasteland, which led to a win in a mirror match on MODO, so I feel like it has a spot.


That True-Named Nemesis is some bull poop if you ask me.

I know I just finished extolling the virtues of Marit Lage, but fuck some TNN.


Crop Rotation in the side board: I have really enjoyed this tech coming out of the board. It is really powerful when you run a Bojuka Bog, DD/Stage, Karakas, Maze, etc. but I'm not sure its better than other cards we would be playing instead. I like it because its flexible, but I'm not sure if its powerful enough for us to play without running weird cards like Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, etc.

Seems reasonable to go all in on Marit Lage if you're going down that path and have slots for it. Merritt Elmasri did well last year with three Rotations in the board.


Tireless Tracker:My concern with this card is the same as Levold and Ramunap. When would you choose this card over Knight with Green Sun's Zenith? Perhaps its good enough to play on its on, as it has a lot of great end game potential, but I'm not sure its better than just running a planeswalker in its place.

It's good in GWb Maverick with Gaea's Cradle. I think there's less room for it in Pun Mav since most Pun Mav builds I have seen want DD+Combo. In general I like that it's a tutorable source of card advantage and a threat that doesn't rely on the graveyard to be functional.


Scryb Ranger: I have never played this card in Punishing Maverick. I cannot comment on it. My gut says its not good enough, but I have no way to justify that. I think I would sooner run another copy of Ooze or Pridemage than play one of these.

Scryb Ranger is insanely good in a deck that cares about tapping creatures for their effects. Tapping KotR once to fetch is cool, tapping her twice for two lands is super cool. Same with tapping Mama twice. It's a pseudo dork and you can play it both proactively and reactively for the lulz tricks. She also looks great with a sword or other equipmonk when the ground is clogged with much bigger and better creatures.

Do you run either of the Thalias? If so, main or side? Switching back to Pun Mav after months playing GWb, I think would miss my girlfriend OG Thalia too much. It feels so good to #YOLO out a Thalia on the play against a turn one Underground Seas+Ponder or other such fuckery. New Thalia is fine in either version and I can't go without at least one in the main deck.

Also, is your board always so zany or were you just shy playing against Reid Duke on camera?

Warden
10-12-2017, 01:02 PM
@Thalia HC
By Default, she's sideboard material for me unless the room is filled with greedy manabases. I love it when she kicks them in the nuts. Fetchland (tapped) -> dual (tapped) is a 2 turn timewalk.

@SFM
Mixed feelings. Sometimes the equipment ends the game/provides a victory I shouldn't have. Other times SFM is okay. Finding a consistently solid replacement is near impossible though.

@Crucible Bro
I agree with @menloe. He's incremental advantage. He doesn't win the game on his own and some folks still don't seem to understand he's a utility guy, not a finisher.

@DD/Stage
Steals games you shouldn't win. Minimal cost to the deck. The number of opening clunkers equals out the number of "oops I drew the combo in the opener" hands. I always miss it when I don't include it in the list.

@card choices
Unless you have an experimental build, I'd argue the maindecks are almost all the same. We're a deck that has 50-50 odds against most of the field. The splashes have pros and cons. All builds lose to fast combo and decks that sweep the table. The sideboard is where I either do well at an event or die miserably. Sometimes it's luck (hedging against combo in the SB but never seeing it in the bracket, and vice-versa). But when I have the definitive anti-room sideboard of the day, I'll crush.

**If there is something to vent about, I've been having a larger problem with the deck feeling it can't keep up with the quality of cards opponents play. These 3 and 4 color monstrosities give me the perception of "they have all the good toys and I don't". If I get wasteland-thalia, I have a decent shot. If the game draws out past 5 turns, I have solid odds of out-grinding people. If Knight can untap, my odds go up considerably. But I have this strong feeling of dread as I sit across from some derivative of DRS->blue filtering->finishers after finishers. Or some progression of cards that immediately pins me on the backfoot, sometimes for the entire game. Decks like eldrazi or elves come out so fucking strong it sometimes feels like I barely play 1 card and it's over. Combo I've lost more often than not to "well they just go off". Not sure if I've been in a rut or if others feel the same. A few individuals are logging wins fighting the fair fight. Sometimes I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Or do I need to change decks.

shallowend
10-12-2017, 03:17 PM
@Thalia HC
By Default, she's sideboard material for me unless the room is filled with greedy manabases. I love it when she kicks them in the nuts. Fetchland (tapped) -> dual (tapped) is a 2 turn timewalk.

@SFM
Mixed feelings. Sometimes the equipment ends the game/provides a victory I shouldn't have. Other times SFM is okay. Finding a consistently solid replacement is near impossible though.

@Crucible Bro
I agree with @menloe. He's incremental advantage. He doesn't win the game on his own and some folks still don't seem to understand he's a utility guy, not a finisher.

@DD/Stage
Steals games you shouldn't win. Minimal cost to the deck. The number of opening clunkers equals out the number of "oops I drew the combo in the opener" hands. I always miss it when I don't include it in the list.

@card choices
Unless you have an experimental build, I'd argue the maindecks are almost all the same. We're a deck that has 50-50 odds against most of the field. The splashes have pros and cons. All builds lose to fast combo and decks that sweep the table. The sideboard is where I either do well at an event or die miserably. Sometimes it's luck (hedging against combo in the SB but never seeing it in the bracket, and vice-versa). But when I have the definitive anti-room sideboard of the day, I'll crush.

**If there is something to vent about, I've been having a larger problem with the deck feeling it can't keep up with the quality of cards opponents play. These 3 and 4 color monstrosities give me the perception of "they have all the good toys and I don't". If I get wasteland-thalia, I have a decent shot. If the game draws out past 5 turns, I have solid odds of out-grinding people. If Knight can untap, my odds go up considerably. But I have this strong feeling of dread as I sit across from some derivative of DRS->blue filtering->finishers after finishers. Or some progression of cards that immediately pins me on the backfoot, sometimes for the entire game. Decks like eldrazi or elves come out so fucking strong it sometimes feels like I barely play 1 card and it's over. Combo I've lost more often than not to "well they just go off". Not sure if I've been in a rut or if others feel the same. A few individuals are logging wins fighting the fair fight. Sometimes I wonder what I'm doing wrong. Or do I need to change decks.Re: pile
I feel like we are playing a similar strategy to pile but have the consistency. Tnn is by far their best card but I feel they often expend a lot of resources getting it into play and a well timed golgari charm can gain you a massive advantage.

We can definitely lose and they have a lot of powerful cards but this is a matched that exovcator can win. I play one in the sideboard and my game plan is make them spend resources on mum/deathrite/Knight and then get them with a double wasteland rallier or the exovcator from a gsz and control the game.

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