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View Full Version : [Deck] GW/x Maverick



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BlueNevus
09-21-2011, 04:10 PM
How do you all feel about 4xLeyline of Sanctity in the SB? Can give us a turn 0/1 answer to storm, helps against all the Hymn/Seize decks that are going to pop up, gives one more hate card that tide has to remove, prevents Cabal Therapy, etc.,

Also, it's not useless if not in the opening hand. We can tutor for it EOT2 and play it turn 3.

MD Teeg
MD 3 Mindcensor

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Null Rod
1 Canonist
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Is this enough for a 45% matchup?

The deck should beat the increased number of Merfolk, CB, and Goblins decks, so doesn't that counteract the downside of the MM ban?

leeties
09-21-2011, 05:10 PM
I tested against Storm (DDANT and TES) the other day. It's definitely winnable even pre-board given that you're running MD Teeg, and 3 Mindcensors. I'll go as far as saying you have almost a 45-50% chance if you're on the play. It's very unlikely that you'll win if you're on the draw though.

I've yet to lose a post board game though, bringing in the following:
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Null Rod
1x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Thorn of Amethyst

:). I'll say this deck is even better post MM banning. HM was a terrible MU for this deck (unless you had dedicated 4 slots for Angel's Grace), and hopefully the banning of MM pushes it out of top tier decks. I don't think this deck needs to worry about Storm if you pack sufficient amount of hate.

Fatal
09-21-2011, 05:42 PM
NO PANIC.

Think a little more storm decks mean more slow CB decks to fight them. Next meta would be paper/rock/scissors. We are like the rock and just need dedicate MD/SB for that paper :).

As Leeties said it's not so bad, Aven Mindcensor is very good (sometimes better than Clique) vs Storm (mostly ANT/Spiral). Also Main Gaddock Teeg Shutdown Turnabout/AdN/Tendrils so he is still useful hate. Null Rod is probably back to action, now thinking about SFM and package is it still useful as it was in current meta.

Draener
09-21-2011, 06:21 PM
Null rod/ that new enchantment. Keep the types of the permanents as diverse as possible.

dahcmai
09-21-2011, 06:38 PM
I find the irrational fear of combo kind of funny. I played GW Survival for a while until the banning of Survival and then I just played what basically ended up as Maverick. I had maindeck Teeg's and Canonists in the board tutorable w Enlightened Tutors. It worked pretty well against Storm and we have a fairly nasty amount of Storm players here so I can honestly tell you that just upping the amount of hate is a perfectly reasonable answer. Belcher still wasn't fun unless you had the Mindbreak traps and well, let's face it, that deck got a new lease on life again. Ugh, I hate Belcher.

High Tide is something I haven't ever had to run into due to the Candelabra problem obviously. (I don't loan out my own, hee hee), but I got to thinking that a slight U splash just for Flusterstorm would help immensely. That card wasn't around the first time Tide was beating up on the Star City 5k's. It seems pretty impressive since you can wait for any moment you like to cast it and there's not a damned thing they can really do about it. No discard and no way to really counter it back seems ok.

I've played the card in a few sideboards and I really like it a lot. Beats the hell out of trying to stock up on Spell Pierces against decks that have no Jaces. Jace is the only reason I played Pierce over Flusterstorm and Maverick doesn't care about Jace too horribly much. At least you can bash him in the face.

leeties
09-21-2011, 08:21 PM
How do you all feel about 4xLeyline of Sanctity in the SB? Can give us a turn 0/1 answer to storm, helps against all the Hymn/Seize decks that are going to pop up, gives one more hate card that tide has to remove, prevents Cabal Therapy, etc.,

Also, it's not useless if not in the opening hand. We can tutor for it EOT2 and play it turn 3.

MD Teeg
MD 3 Mindcensor

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Null Rod
1 Canonist
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Is this enough for a 45% matchup?

The deck should beat the increased number of Merfolk, CB, and Goblins decks, so doesn't that counteract the downside of the MM ban?

45% :eek: ? I had a 45% chance or better of beating Storm with just MD (4GSZ, Teeg, Mindcensor) on the play.

I'll say you have a 85% chance of winning any Storm MU with that SB on the play, and probably a 70+% chance on the draw.

leeties
09-21-2011, 08:46 PM
I think SFM-> Batterskull is still a solid choice:). Since most of you will take out the four MD Missteps and replace them with MoR. MoR T1 -> SFM T2, that usually means a Batterskull will likely be entering play T3, which is awesome against decks like Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo.

I'll even go as far as saying that B-Skull is probably the beater I want the most in any Tendrils MU. 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink that swings for 8 points of damage => Opponent gets less cards off Ad Naseum + Needs a higher storm count to finish player (suprisingly relevant)... (and in rare cases, they might not be able to win off a Empty the Warrens)

BlueNevus
09-21-2011, 11:08 PM
Against Combo:

+ 4 Leyline, +2 ET, +1 Canonist, +1 Rod, +1 Thorn

-1 Ooze, -3 Mystic, -4 Equipment, -1 Pridemage


4 Leyline
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun + Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Choke
1 Serenity

-1 MD Maze of Ith, +1 Wasteland (4). 1 Teeg + 3 Mindcensor.

This sideboard helps against Enchantress, Affinity, GY-decks, and combo, among other things. Against control I plan on tutoring for choke, then leveraging it to play my threats in hand first and prevent them from tapping islands unless they have force backup.

Skimping on removal could hurt against Tombstalker/Goyf + other threats, but I think we can handle creature decks with the MD. Landing mother more consistently will help. Zoo will be tough with this sideboard.

Also, I don't have a lot of experience playing against counterbalance. They will probably save forces for Zenith and counter most other things with CB. Can we beat it with MD + 3 ET, 1 Rod, & 1 Choke? Or do we have to rely on landing Mother + threat or 2-3 threats before they can set up the lock?

leeties
09-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Unless you expect Xantid Swarm's, I usually board out StP vs Combo... However, since you don't run blue or MB Trap, StP should be the first thing boarded out IMO.

Things like Ooze and Qasali Pridemage can also be good in random situations. Ooze can hit Rite of Flames, and Qasali PM can screw them over if they sequence their spells incorrectly (dropping LED at wrong time).

I also like the clock that Batterskull brings complemented with a piece of hate. Even if they do manage to answer your piece of hate, let's say, 2 turns later. Batterskull should already put their life total low enough, while your life total high enough, that they can't successfully combo.

If you're playing against pure control decks that runs a lot of spot removal (or even decks like Junk, Zoo), I would consider a one of Thrun in the SB :).

Draener
09-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Grip should also probably make it's way into your sideboard as a 2 of.

Fatal
09-22-2011, 10:13 AM
I thinking to drop out Maverick for a while until meta stabilize so I could pick up correct MD Toolbox and SB - don't like to predict without any data - anyway I'm sure that in new meta this deck will exist - we just have to adjust to new/old strategies. As i said before - the best side of this deck is consistence of the bombs and resilient to any opponent other bombs.

BlueNevus
09-22-2011, 12:54 PM
Unless you expect Xantid Swarm's, I usually board out StP vs Combo... However, since you don't run blue or MB Trap, StP should be the first thing boarded out IMO.

Things like Ooze and Qasali Pridemage can also be good in random situations. Ooze can hit Rite of Flames, and Qasali PM can screw them over if they sequence their spells incorrectly (dropping LED at wrong time).

I also like the clock that Batterskull brings complemented with a piece of hate. Even if they do manage to answer your piece of hate, let's say, 2 turns later. Batterskull should already put their life total low enough, while your life total high enough, that they can't successfully combo.

If you're playing against pure control decks that runs a lot of spot removal (or even decks like Junk, Zoo), I would consider a one of Thrun in the SB :).

I will leave Swords in for their confidants and for gaining life at instant speed if need be. This may be a mistake. Against Tide/Hive, they're out, obviously.

If I'm zenithing for cc=2, I'm not grabbing Ooze or Pridemage, but Teeg every time.

My issue with batterskull/equipment is that playing Mystic on turn 2 is a terrible play when you're trying to disrupt them. Even T2 Hate, T3 Mystic, T4 batterskull, T5 attack with skull will lose most of the time. I would support the batterskull plan only in a bant version that can interact on the stack during the first few turns.

I feel that without Leyline, ANT will take your hate right out of your hand on turn 1, and TES will chant you on your turn to prevent you from playing permanent hate.

I love Thrun and used to SB 2 of him before the ban for the Stoneblade matchups. I don't think 1 is enough since you want to cast him from your hand. He's too slow and not powerful enough against Zoo, as by the time he's out, you'll be close to death and they can topdeck burn for your face. I like him in the CB matchup, but want two. He's solid against junk, but they'll probably have 4/5 or better Goyfs, KOTR's, or batterskull. Also, what I'm worried about most in that matchup is a 20/20 indestructible flyer. However, I want to send Thrun to Karakas in response to Wrath of God/Perish at least once in my life, so I might squeeze him in until that happens.

dahcmai
09-22-2011, 06:48 PM
What exactly are this deck's bad match ups including misstep being gone now? Just combo? If that's it, I'm definitely playing this deck. How's Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, BUG, Stoneblade, and Countertop? Those are the ones I am interested in most really.

humppa
09-23-2011, 02:56 AM
BUG and Stoneblade? Where? Without misstep they are too slow as they were before misstep was printed. Countertop was dead before misstep too, I think there is no reason to change.

Look at High tide, ANT, elves and classic as zoo, merfolks, goblins.
The first pile will kill you easily any time.

Ajsmirnov
09-23-2011, 03:58 AM
zoo, merfolks, goblins
I believe Maverick has very good MU against them. Against Elves - it depends on how fast can we equip Jitte/SoFI to Mirran Crusader or a flying creature.

leeties
09-23-2011, 05:37 AM
Elves is a terrible MU. Combo or aggro variants. I play aggro elves tons, and it just smashes Maverick pretty easily unless you connect with a Jitte before their Priest/Archdruid untaps, even then they have tons of way to interact with the Jitte (Shaman, Symbiote/Quirion + Arbor). I can't think of a real blowout card for elves in GW. Ethersworn Cannonist does wonders against the combo version though.

You can cater your SB to have a good High Tide MU, and a solid ANT MU :).

leeties
09-23-2011, 05:37 AM
edit: DBLE POST

dahcmai
09-23-2011, 12:52 PM
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know aside from the Countertop thing. Anyone who thinks Stoneblade is dead because of a Misstep banning didn't bother testing obviously. That deck is still incredibly strong. It's what I play normally. I just want a change of pace. I figure Dreadstill is going to be back now that it can cast a Dreadnought again without such a fight over it. So I wondered the most about that one. It can't be too bad with Pridemages, but this deck plays so few answers to a Dreadnought, it made me wonder.

CorpT
09-23-2011, 01:01 PM
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know aside from the Countertop thing. Anyone who thinks Stoneblade is dead because of a Misstep banning didn't bother testing obviously. That deck is still incredibly strong. It's what I play normally. I just want a change of pace. I figure Dreadstill is going to be back now that it can cast a Dreadnought again without such a fight over it. So I wondered the most about that one. It can't be too bad with Pridemages, but this deck plays so few answers to a Dreadnought, it made me wonder.

2-3x Pridemage
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares

That's too few answers to Dreadnought? Plus more in the board?

leeties
09-23-2011, 02:28 PM
Haha. Yes, Dreadnought is the least of our worries.

dahcmai
09-24-2011, 01:27 AM
Heh, I keep forgetting about Zenith. Good point. That card wasn't printed yet when I played GW Survival which this deck is a lost descendant of.


This might sound stupid, but has anyone given Garruck Primal Hunter a shot? His card draw was stupid amazing in Standard. I'd love to have it here, but I fear his CC is too much to handle.

JJ_JKidd
09-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Im really puzzled by the loss of the Bant thread. Since its GW/x Maverick as the title of the thread suggests, is the Bant variant allowed to be discussed here?

TossUsToLions
09-25-2011, 10:15 PM
Im really puzzled by the loss of the Bant thread. Since its GW/x Maverick as the title of the thread suggests, is the Bant variant allowed to be discussed here?

The Aggro Bant thread can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant-Aggro/page21

You can discuss the x in GW/x is usually a very light blue splash, usually adding one Tropical Island for Rhox War Monk, Edric, and/or Rafiq (and previously Mental Misstep).

Asthereal
09-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Alright, they have banned Misstep.
That's bad for Maverick since it'll invite players to play our bad matchups and we don't have the sweet card ourselves anymore. Now what? Well, I've added black (but stayed close to original Maverick builds) coming up with the following:

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
3 Stoneforge Mystic /20

4 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine /18

1 Forest
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith /22 //60

Sideboard:
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vindicate
2 Duress
2 Entlightened Tutor
1 Aethersworn Canonist
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Warmth
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Phyrexian Metamorph /15

Runs pretty nicely.
What do you guys think?

Philipp2293
09-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Isn't this pretty much Junk with both Mystic Package and GSZ?

Koby
09-26-2011, 03:25 PM
I think that Vindicate is completely unnecessary in this deck. Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant are gravy, but Vindicate is something that doesn't seem to gel well with the Maverick core. In essence I see adding Thoughtseize as an addition piece of disruption, and Dark Confidant as a source of card advantage.

I would also modify the manabase thus:

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest

And cut Maze of Ith. This would free up some slots to play Teeg and Scavenging Ooze maindeck, which also provide additional disruption. We already have enough answers for Artifacts/Enchantments (QPM), creatures (StP/Equipment & KotR), but a way to interact with spells. Thoughtseize does this wonderfully.

deviant
09-26-2011, 06:22 PM
Cutting mother of runes seems very retarded. The card is just too good to not run in a deck that is this dependant on its creatures living. It also is half of our best combo against all forms of combo decks.
GW decks arent going anywhere. Have you ever tried playing gw mirror where the other guy has active mother and you don't?
I mean, have you ever played the card at all? You should try it. It's surprisingly good.
For the love of god give me a matchup that is relevant where she is bad?

Merfolk? They actively force her.
Storm? Don't worry yoda, mom is here.
High tide? Hive Mind? Mommy protects you little one. Good thing you were so easy to find with all these tutors that have mommys picture in them.
Control decks that have lots of removal. I think this is self explanatory.
Zoo? Yes she will take you to look at the little funny animals. Dont worry you are safe with her, she wont let them bite you.

And in case you were wondering, no lands is still not a deck. No matter what you ban.

Junk is a different animal, but as long as you consider your deck maverick you should really consider why the fuck you are not running a set of mother of runes.

Asthereal
09-26-2011, 06:49 PM
Actually I didn't cut Mother of Runes. I never played it.
Too many matchups in which it's just a 1/1 for 1.

For Vindicate: it supports land destruction, clears the way for our critter sand it cleans up Planeswalkers. I don't see why that card would ever be bad. And I would never cut Maze of Ith in this deck. It's one of the best cards if you play a full set of Knights of the Reliquary.

It seems true that my list looks like Junk/The Rock/Dark Horizons, but in many ways it's different. I still play 8 turn 1 mana accellerators, and I still play a creature based aggro deck with an equipment package. That;s all very typical for Maverick. Junk/Rock-like decks play more discard, more removal, and NO equipment package. If they do, they don't understand the nature of the deck. At least, that's the way I see it.

Water_Wizard
09-26-2011, 07:58 PM
Cutting mother of runes seems very retarded. The card is just too good to not run in a deck that is this dependant on its creatures living. It also is half of our best combo against all forms of combo decks.
GW decks arent going anywhere. Have you ever tried playing gw mirror where the other guy has active mother and you don't?

Storm? Don't worry yoda, mom is here.
High tide? Hive Mind? Mommy protects you little one. Good thing you were so easy to find with all these tutors that have mommys picture in them.


Deviant, excuse my ignorance, but I'm new to these posts. What is the other half of "our best combo" against combo decks? Mom and Teeg?
Secondly, Against Storm, High Tide, and Hive Mind, are you using Mom to keep Teeg on the board?

Finally, what are you guys running against Emarkul/Progenitus? Sneak Attack, Elves combo with Emarkul, Show and Tell, Natural Order, etc.? I realize Karakas takes out Emarkul (if you have active KotR - turn 4 on play, their turn 5 on draw (I find that on draw, KotR is just too slow, they can S&T on turn 2 with City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb (I guess you could have a KotR in hand and put that in play, too))). What do we run against these protected fatties? Ensnaring Bridge?

Koby
09-26-2011, 08:06 PM
What do we run against these protected fatties? Ensnaring Bridge?

Recently, it's been:
Phyrexian Metamorph
Oblivion Ring
Tariff
Phantasmal Image

But Ensnaring Bridge could work too.

Julian23
09-26-2011, 08:35 PM
To be fair, Mom won't be able to protect Gaddock against High Tide because of Wipe Away. The only out to this is playing Gaddock with (GW) mana open and target it with Mother during your main phase. Thus, your opponent is forced to either not bounce him or bounce him and see you replay Gaddock (with the possibility of countering him now).

Water_Wizard
09-26-2011, 08:36 PM
Thanks Rukcus - this helps out a lot!
Metamorph over Bridge? I don't know about Ring, since it doesn't work for Progenitus. Tariff and Image are good, but in a Enlightened Tutor package, I have more chances of drawing 'Morph or Bridge. I like Bridge because it is permanent, while 'Morph kills one big guy, but then it gets recycled and 'Morph/Tariff/Ring/Image don't stop Sneak Attack. I can get under bridge with Noble, or wait until I've amassed my Hordes then blow it up and go in for the Alpha Strike!

Water_Wizard
09-26-2011, 08:44 PM
Makes sense - thanks! Or Hibernate, might as well swing with Mom then - some decks are running multiple snaps and no wipe away, I guess this would be a time to keep Mom untapped

Koby
09-26-2011, 08:47 PM
Metamorph doesn't shuffle back in when it clones Emrakul FYI. This can be an important point.

Einherjer
09-27-2011, 12:58 AM
With UW Tempo rising, I wonder what Mavericks MU is?

Water_Wizard
09-27-2011, 03:41 AM
Metamorph doesn't shuffle back in when it clones Emrakul FYI. This can be an important point.

Yes, I agree - my point was it doesn't (sorry if this wasn't clear) - Bridge is a permanent solution, where Metamorph does one iteration, but Most NO decks run 3-4 NOs and Sneak & Show runs 8 copies of Progen/Emrakul/Kozilek/Ulamog/Blightsteel, etc, so chances are you will have to face down 2-3 of these. Thanks for the clarifying point.

Asthereal
09-27-2011, 04:45 AM
Doesn't Ensnaring Bridge stop your own armada too?
How does one win with Ensnaring Bridge on either side of the board?

I think UW Tempo should be an easy matchup:
- Our beasts are bigger
- Many ways to clean up their equipments
- Stable mana base so who cares about Wasteland
- They have little ways to clean up our equipments

Koby
09-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Noble Hierarch + Exalted :P

sir
09-27-2011, 02:24 PM
Hello, I'm new here. I play and cherish Maverick and I'm looking forward to seeing how the archetype reacts to the Misstep-free format. Which I don't believe will be too negative for the deck. IME GW Maverick already tended to overrun a deck like UW Stoneblade before, with Misstep present, but hey, more ease there is fine. People are worried about combo resurgence. But remember we have the tools to deal with most of them. Maverick does well in games 2 + 3 (game 1 if lucky) against storm all the time. The tools are there ... particularly speaking I think seeing more of Charbelcher is going to be bad though. There's not much you can do in my experience.

I think the new environment may call for 4 Mother of Runes instead of the typical 3 (or none.) As long as the extra copy of her doesn't replace a threat. To protect Gaddock ... to help against lightning bolt if she can live a turn.

Anyway, in general I wanted to ask people about the use of Thrun? Specifically, it seems as if most of the winning decks maindeck 1 copy (with possibly another in sideboard). I can't argue with results of course and there must be much to this, but can someone help me understand why it works? Because, it seems like with 1 copy you need to GSZ it, which they can counter, and 5 mana is a lot ...

Well, maybe at the point you cast GSZ for Thrun they are low on resources, is that it?

I'm sure this is easy to understand, I'm just not seeing it exactly and haven't gotten around to heavy testing.

I really like the idea of Silhana Ledgewalker as a 1-of. I also use a couple copies of Student of Warfare (with testing success) but let's not talk about that embarrassment.

The TC Decks site is a great resource. Man, Maverick rocks Europe.

Koby
09-27-2011, 03:22 PM
Thrun?

I really like the idea of Silhana Ledgewalker as a 1-of.

I like 1 Thrun in the 75, and I start it maindeck. Most of the time, you won't need to tutor for it, and sometimes you'll naturally draw it, and proceed to win in. In most cases that I've encountered, GSZ is typically mid-late game card against the control decks. I will almost always try to pressure out with an early GSZ for a 2 drop, then try to ram out some KotR from my hand, or durdle around with equipment to distract them.

I should mention that I run 2 Sylvan Library, and that usually helps more than any other card against control and B/x mid-range decks.

The idea of Silhana Ledgewalker is pretty cool, but I much prefer Scryb Ranger for the evasion slot. Both are tutorable, but the key is to find utility. You said early that you would be running 4x Mom, so she already provides the necessary protection for your creatures. Ranger at least gives you more utility and the ability to reuse Mom if need be on the same turn.

Maëlig
09-29-2011, 12:39 PM
45% :eek: ? I had a 45% chance or better of beating Storm with just MD (4GSZ, Teeg, Mindcensor) on the play.

I'll say you have a 85% chance of winning any Storm MU with that SB on the play, and probably a 70+% chance on the draw.

Sorry, but these numbers look completely bogus. Also, I think leyline is pretty terrible hate (for the same reason that true believer is, i.e. it doesn't stop the combo, just the kill, so they can just bounce it after a big AdN), I'd stick with more bears or counters/discard if you play the splash. I'd agree to the statement that storm combo is winnable (depending on your amount of SB hate), but it'll never be a positive MU, stop dreaming. Also, high tide is nearly unwinnable, and there's nothing we really can do about it. Other than that, the deck seems solid in today's meta.

BlueNevus
09-30-2011, 11:55 AM
Maverick had the best win% of any deck in Atlanta. 6 people played the deck. Nice.

BlueNevus
09-30-2011, 12:55 PM
Sorry, but these numbers look completely bogus. Also, I think leyline is pretty terrible hate (for the same reason that true believer is, i.e. it doesn't stop the combo, just the kill, so they can just bounce it after a big AdN), I'd stick with more bears or counters/discard if you play the splash. I'd agree to the statement that storm combo is winnable (depending on your amount of SB hate), but it'll never be a positive MU, stop dreaming. Also, high tide is nearly unwinnable, and there's nothing we really can do about it. Other than that, the deck seems solid in today's meta.


I'm considering Leyline because I'm worried about getting permanent hate or Zenith stripped from my hand by Duress/Seize in storm decks. It's also just another piece of hate that they have to remove. Leyline + Mother + Teeg/Canonist can be tricky to deal with. Regarding High Tide, isn't 2 hate cards and a clock enough to give us a chance? Also, Vial @ two with Teeg or Canonist (Edit: High Tide's Rebuild will return both Vial & Canonist, my mistake. Still works with Teeg) on the board or in hand is solid, if Vial builds are your thing. (Edit: This is all easy to do against 4xFOW, 4xScroll, Cunning Wish, Intuition, and 10+ cantrips, right?)

mordraid
09-30-2011, 03:13 PM
Yeah hight tide will usually go off on turns 3-4-5. 3 turns is a fast start that will be rough to handle for any deck. By turn 4 and 5, maverick player should already have a board very well establised and some damage dealt.

I've beaten 2 high tides in 5 rounds in last tournament at local shop. first game is really tough but it's still winnable. Game 2-3 it's a different story. Ethersworn canonist and choke alongside an enlightened tutor toolbox sideboard is really stunning.

Maëlig
09-30-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm considering Leyline because I'm worried about getting permanent hate or Zenith stripped from my hand by Duress/Seize in storm decks. It's also just another piece of hate that they have to remove.
Storm combo players will usually (and should) side out their discard for some combination of bounce and removal, since they want to be able to deal with our bears.

You're right about high tide, but as you said that only works with teeg (which they can still potentially win through), requires vial (which most of us don't play anymore) and still folds to double bounce. Not a winning strategy by any means, although it's clearly the best we have (along with a clock).

Qweerios
10-02-2011, 02:09 AM
I have played Maverick competitively for a couple of months now. I recently made a switch to Rock but I don't think it is nearly as strong so I am reverting to GWb Mav. I am not sure about my manabase though. Do I want Horizon Canopy? Should I maindeck a basic Swamp or Bojuka Bog? Here is what I currently play:


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas


I currently don't own any Maze of Ith but I reckon it might be a good idea to add one somewhere.

mordraid
10-02-2011, 08:07 AM
I have played Maverick competitively for a couple of months now. I recently made a switch to Rock but I don't think it is nearly as strong so I am reverting to GWb Mav. I am not sure about my manabase though. Do I want Horizon Canopy? Should I maindeck a basic Swamp or Bojuka Bog? Here is what I currently play:


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas


I currently don't own any Maze of Ith but I reckon it might be a good idea to add one somewhere.

I would cut a pridemage and add a scryb ranger in the maindeck. 2 pridemages and 4 green sun should be enough if you need them.

Maëlig
10-02-2011, 06:21 PM
I would cut a pridemage and add a scryb ranger in the maindeck. 2 pridemages and 4 green sun should be enough if you need them.
Seconded, although I would add a teeg MD before ranger (in place of the 4th stoneforge?).


Today I finished 1st at a ~30 players tournament with maverick. I played a light blue splash for SB cards only (pierce, submerge and meddling mage), which was amazing. This gave me an edge in every single MU except vs merfolk, which is already a very good MU anyways. I went :
2-0 vs CB thopter
2-0 vs burn
2-1 vs folk
draw
draw

Top 8 :
2-1 vs BUGstill
2-1 vs team america
2-0 vs folk

Philipp2293
10-03-2011, 01:25 AM
Congratz man! Care to share your exact list?

CorpT
10-03-2011, 01:33 AM
Ended up 4-2 at SCG Indy with Maverick.

Round 1: Beat Mirror (friend and playtest buddy)
Round 2: Lost to Reanimator
Round 3: Beat Goblins
Round 4: Beat Affinity
Round 5: Beat Goblins
Round 6: Lost to Team America

The Reanimator player finished 12, and the TA player finished 16th. There were quite a few other Maverick players floating around the X-1 bracket for awhile.

Morte
10-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Report from OvinoSex Legacy tournament in Milan (382 players).
My List:

4 Windswepth Heat
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Driad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
2 Forest
1 Plains

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Choke
1 Serenity
1 Bojuka Bog


Round 1: Spiral Tide 1-2
Game 1: I GSZ for Teeg and smash him down to 4, then he bounces Teeg and closes. 0-1

-4 Stoneforge Mystic -3 equipments -2 StP
+3 Mindbreak Trap +3 Enlightened Tutor + Thorn of Amethyst+ Ethersworn Canonist + Choke

Game 2: I land Thorn, Teeg, Canonist and win. 1-1
Game 3: Mulligan, GSZ for Teeg, he bounces him, then counters my Mindbreak Trap. 1-2
0-1-0


Round 2: Stoneblade 2-0
Don’t remember exactly, I smashed him quite easily.
1-1-0


Round 3: Reanimator 2-1
Game 1: Cannot remove turn 2 Jin-Jitaxian. 0-1

-4 MoR –Thrun –Terravore –Stoneforge Mystic -Jitte -Sword
+3 Enlightened Tutor +Tormod's Crypt +Wheel of Sun and Moon +Thorn of Amethyst + Phyrexian Metamorph +Choke +Bojuka Bog

Game 2: Turn 2 Thorn and Wasteland, Wasteland again, Ooze stops his following moves. 1-1
Game 3: Tutor into Crypt, then Censor against Entomb, the he scoops to Wheel of Sun and Moon. 2-1
2-1-0


Round 4: Sneak and Show 0-2
Game 1: T2 Emrakul. 0-1

-4 MoR –Thrun -Terravore
+3Enlightened Tutor +Phyrexian Metamorph +Choke + Thorn of Amethyst

Game 2: he counters Teeg and lands Sneak Attack into Emrakul + Progenitus. 0-2
2-2-0


Round 5: UGR CounterTop 2-0
Game 1: he lands countertop and is able to counter a Knight revealing Firespout, then I bypass the lock with GSZ. 1-0

+Choke +Serenity +Null Rod
-Ooze –Stoneforge Mystic –Sword

Game 2: Countertop and Clique are the only things I see and they’re quite useless. 2-0
3-2-0


Round 6: Merfolk 2-0
Quite easy.
-Thrun -Mindcensor
+Choke +Null Rod
4-2-0


Round 7: UGR Tempo 1:2
Game 1: I land a lot of mana and my guys are fatter. 1-0

-Thrun -2 Stoneforge Mystic -Sword
+2 Enlightened Tutor +Thorn +Choke

Game 2: he starts with Goose and is able to stop almost everything. 1-1
Game 3: I mull 2 times, land a 6/6 Terravore, he steal it with that control creature for U with cumulative upkeep, then I sacrifice my Pridemage to get it back but he stifles it. 1-2
4-3-0


Round 8: Zoo 2-0
Quite easy, sided Teeg for Canonist just to avoid disadvantage.
5-3-0


Round 9: Affinity 2-1
Game 1: I cannot stop Etched Champion with Cranial Plating. 0-1

-4 MoR
+2 Enlightened Tutor +Serenity +Null Rod

Game 2: Early Jitte kills all his robots. 1-1
Game 3: Had to mull down to 3 (! first time in my life at a tournament) but I land a turn 2 Null Rod and am able to win. 2-1
6-3-0


I’m quite satisfied with the deck. Sword of Feast and Famine was the useless card of the day, I never fetched for it and when I drew it probably everything else could have been better. Maybe I’ll switch to SoFaI or SoLaS.

I’m very satisfied with the sideboard. I expected a lot of Spiral Tides and Reanimators and I was right. I think all matchups I found were winnable with the deck.

What do you think about the right number of Enlightened Tutor? I ended for 3 because where side is relevant usually I want it right from the beginning. I never drew 2 tutors in the same game, anyway.

Koby
10-03-2011, 02:08 PM
I have been using 2 Tutors for the longest time, but it looks like in your list you have a heavy reliance on Silver Bullets. In this case it makes sense to put a 3rd Tutor in the SB to help that plan. Any reason why you didn't put Pithing Needle in the sideboard, now that MM is out of the metagame?

Leftconsin
10-03-2011, 04:21 PM
About Ensnaring Bridge: I brought it in twice in SCG Indy yesterday. Once against Show and Tell, but I didn't get it games 2 and 3, and once against Merfolk. On his turn 4 I had Bridge on board with one card in hand, he had two lords and he never attacked again. He told me that he boarded out every way he could deal with it. Eventually I resolved Jitte and GSZ X=4 and grabbed Sylvan Ranger. I swung in twice but Jitte's trigger got stifled both times. It got dismembered and that game went to time as my Hierarchs were not able to crack his wall of fish. Even if the match was untimed I still had more GSZ left in my library than he had hard counters in his deck. Game 1 I had two MoR and rode Ranger+Jitte to a win in that one.

I boarded in Leyline of Sanctity against Show and Tell and it was amazing. It is a little known fact that Intuition can not be played when you have hexproof because Intuition targets the opponent. The person I was playing was running Painter as his second wincon, so it became even more relevant.

My equipments were 1 Batterskull 2 Jitte. I've been so unhappy with any of the swords that I doubled up on Jitte. It is cheaper, does more, drawing it naturally was always welcomed, I don't have to connect tot he dome for a use, and I can get benefit on defense as well as offense. Its just the better equipment.

TossUsToLions
10-03-2011, 05:03 PM
CorpT, what is the gameplan against Gobbos? Just SFM for a Jitte/SoFI as soon as possible? I haven't played it much since it was non-existent during the MM era.

I have not been running an E.Tutor package in my board, but with the new metagame I feel like it is necessary now. How is this? Anything obvious I'm missing? I have a Teeg and Thrun main.

SB:
2 PtE
2 K.Grip
2 Choke
2 E.Tutor
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Stony Silence
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Loaming Shaman/Bojuka Bog/Pithing Needle/Nevermore/anything cool

CorpT
10-03-2011, 05:28 PM
Goblins was pretty easy actually. Batterskull and Jitte combined with Mother of Runes is a lot of hate for them. One thing that came up that was incredibly important was stopping his Ports. I had an Enlightened Tutor in hand and it felt like he kept the Wasteland/Port hand. He attacked into my Mom with his Lackey and I traded. Then, during my turn, he ported my Plains, so I used the Tutor to get a Needle, drew the Needle, played my land and played the Needle. He kept played Ports after that and it was a very good call.

Other than that, it was generally pretty easy. Keep their Piledrivers from getting out of hand, save Mom for when you need it and get a Jitte/Batterskull/SoFaI active.

Koby
10-08-2011, 11:30 PM
I've found in testing that the Reanimator matchup is pretty good for this deck. With access to Karakas, StP effects, and Scavenging Ooze, this deck is well equipped against Reanimator. I'm hoping there's a lot of band-wagoners in my tournament tomorrow so I can soul-crush them with Maverick.

I've adapted with 3 Mother of Runes and 2 Aven Mincensor where previously were Mental Missteps and BoP. We'll see how I end up doing...

Koby
10-10-2011, 07:30 PM
Ended up dispatching 2 Reanimator decks along the way to 5-0-2 yesterday. Mindcensors worked pretty well in shutting off fetching/Entombing while providing a flying blocker for Sphinx of the Steel Wind + Mom. Happy with the maindeck right now, just a few tweaks as needed for the sideboard in anticipation of the decks I would face.

Maindeck

4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun the Last Troll

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Silence
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sword of Light/Shadow
1 Life from the Loam
1 Serenity

TossUsToLions
10-10-2011, 09:54 PM
Ended up dispatching 2 Reanimator decks along the way to 5-0-2 yesterday. Mindcensors worked pretty well in shutting off fetching/Entombing while providing a flying blocker for Sphinx of the Steel Wind + Mom. Happy with the maindeck right now, just a few tweaks as needed for the sideboard in anticipation of the decks I would face.

Decklist



Nice job! Did you ever want the 4th Mom or the 3rd Mindscensor? How was the Terravore and Thrun? I have a similar maindeck (although i haven't played magic since school started back up) but my SB is pretty different. Did you use the Silences or Maze of Ith?

Koby
10-10-2011, 10:38 PM
Nice job! Did you ever want the 4th Mom or the 3rd Mindscensor? How was the Terravore and Thrun? I have a similar maindeck (although i haven't played magic since school started back up) but my SB is pretty different. Did you use the Silences or Maze of Ith?

I never wanted the 4th Mom - there's too many combo decks in my metagame to warrant 1/1 do nothings. Mindcensor is fine, but I don't ever feel like I want to cast him, only when I'm on the draw and against an active fetchland. I would rather get a Knight out anyway, or SFM/other 2cc threat against Daze.

Silence was a concession to my combo metagame, and I brought that in against Reanimator sometimes in order to buy a turn or two. I found that against the slower combo decks I'm always a turn behind, and Silence allows me to interact with them. It's also a way to interact with Elves and stop their combo cold. Maze was boarded in against the Reanimator matchup as it buys soooo much time to get some answers for their Fat.

Water_Wizard
10-10-2011, 11:07 PM
I played a light blue splash for SB cards only (pierce, submerge and meddling mage), which was amazing. This gave me an edge in every single MU except vs merfolk, which is already a very good MU anyways.

When you brought Meddling Mage in against Merfolk, what did you name? Dismember? Care to share your exact list?

Water_Wizard
10-11-2011, 01:06 AM
About Ensnaring Bridge: I brought it in twice in SCG Indy yesterday. Once against Show and Tell, but I didn't get it games 2 and 3, and once against Merfolk. On his turn 4 I had Bridge on board with one card in hand, he had two lords and he never attacked again. He told me that he boarded out every way he could deal with it. Eventually I resolved Jitte and GSZ X=4 and grabbed Sylvan Ranger. I swung in twice but Jitte's trigger got stifled both times. It got dismembered and that game went to time as my Hierarchs were not able to crack his wall of fish. Even if the match was untimed I still had more GSZ left in my library than he had hard counters in his deck. Game 1 I had two MoR and rode Ranger+Jitte to a win in that one.

I've been doing the same. Ensnaring Bridge buys time, especially if your opponent removed/didn't sideboard in artifact hate (especially if you don't run a stoneforge package or they didn't see it game 1). As far as getting around it, it's not too bad - either attack with something small and use exhalted triggers or use Jitte. Jitte + Bridge (esp. with Ranger) = beatstick. Remember, you'll draw a card at the beginning of your turn, then you can attack with a 1/1 and then play your card so your opponent can't attack. Also, if you are facing big creatures, you can hold a few cards in hand and your guys can get through, perhaps via mom protection, and then their guys still can't attack. Beware of the cracking their standstill to make you draw or Ancestral Visioning you to get under the bridge.

Why no Mirran Crusaders? I realize they don't do well against red (lavamancer, lightning bolt), but they combo amazingly with Jitte, get around 'Goyf, and can't be targeted by Dismember, Ghastly Demise, GFTT, and Snuff Out.

haku
10-11-2011, 06:40 AM
Hi, I play this deck a few months ago and I want to sahre with you some doubts with the list.

- I see that all of you are playing with Batterskull, really it's a good choice for this deck? Don't you want allways an Equipment that make better your creatures? Why do you want a creature with cmc 5 that if you draw without stoneforge on the battlefield is so bad?

- Thrun is really necessary? I think the tempo decks like Canadian or Team America will appear due to combo, but i think we can win this decks without it.

- Aven Mindcensor, I don't like it, it's good only in your first 7 cards, playing Noble/Zenith for 0 on first turn and keeping mana-opened so it smells that I have the card...

Please feel free to gave me your opinions, I am talking about my experience...

Morte
10-11-2011, 02:03 PM
Newcomers, welcome but please read the past page of the thread, often the answers you need are already written.


Why no Mirran Crusaders? I realize they don't do well against red (lavamancer, lightning bolt), but they combo amazingly with Jitte, get around 'Goyf, and can't be targeted by Dismember, Ghastly Demise, GFTT, and Snuff Out.

Crusaders are amazing with equipments, but less spectacular otherwise. The point is that every creature is a bomb with an equipment: when you have a creature equipped you’re in a winning position in any case, while when you don’t have equipments there are better options than Crusader. :w::w: cost can occasionally be bad too.


Hi, I play this deck a few months ago and I want to sahre with you some doubts with the list.

- I see that all of you are playing with Batterskull, really it's a good choice for this deck? Don't you want allways an Equipment that make better your creatures? Why do you want a creature with cmc 5 that if you draw without stoneforge on the battlefield is so bad?

- Thrun is really necessary? I think the tempo decks like Canadian or Team America will appear due to combo, but i think we can win this decks without it.

- Aven Mindcensor, I don't like it, it's good only in your first 7 cards, playing Noble/Zenith for 0 on first turn and keeping mana-opened so it smells that I have the card...

Please feel free to gave me your opinions, I am talking about my experience...

Batterskull + Stoneforge Mystic is crazy, Wizards had to ban Mystic from everywhere but Legacy and Vintage because of that. Turn 3 4/4 lifelink+vigilance is quite frequent, often with protection for the Mystic, and quite devastating. If oppo immediately burns Mystic, you have +1 card advantage anyway.
Hardcasting Batterskull a bit later is not so difficult with all our mana acceleration.

Thrun is for control, and it really shines there. I beat Deedstill game 1 in my last tournament thanks to GSZ into Thrun: it’s much harder without him.

Aven Mindcensor is awesome. It gives everybody playing fetchlands (i.e. all but Merkfolks, more or less) an average 50% probability to crack their fetchlands into nothing. It makes their Entomb, Intuition, Infernal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order… almost useless. Sometimes you can beat storm game 1 thanks to him.
At worst, it’s the best flyer in our deck. Flash can be very relevant too.
Edit – you’re aware that its tutoring limitation effect is permanent, not CIP, right?


@Ruckus
I like the four Wastelands in your manabase, I’ll add one too removing one Canopy. I prefer 7 fetchlands and 3 Savannahs however, in order to have a slightly better chance to fetch basics when needed and also to fatten Knights and ‘vore.

I like your sideboard too. As a slight improvement, you could use Orim's Chant in place of Silence: if you side in them against Reanimator they can save you a turn even if you draw them after they reanimated.

Couple of questions about your sideboard:
Sword of Light and Shadow? When does it make the difference?
Path to Exile? Reanimator and Merfolk, or also other usages?
You seem a bit light of GY hate (just a Bog). What about your Dredge matchup?


Edit – I’m wondering about Sylvan Library. How often do you use it to draw extra cards? Maybe it could be worth to try Mirri's Guile. It can be landed earlier than the Library, profiting by your early shuffle effects (I suppose you usually play Library starting from turn 4-5, after some creatures, correct? Before, you risk to spend a critical turn doing nothing. Mirri's Guile can be played early game together with something else).

_erbs_
10-11-2011, 10:26 PM
Hello
Just wondering.., have you guys seen any maverick decks made it into the top 8 or 16 after misstep was banned ?

With all the following decks below becoming very prominent in the meta is maverick still a good choice for the said meta??
snapcaster decks => will rain removals
zoo => too fast and has tons of removals
rock / junk => sweepers and discards
strom combo decks => a bad MU

Some of my thoughts and experience on the following.
@aven mindcensor
is really good but i feel that if you play him its a 4 off card to benefit from its use a late game aven is crappy and is just a 2/1 vanilla flyer.. after testing him over and over i decided not to play him at all. I will not deny that he will have a big impact when you are able to land him at the right time, thats why i feel its a 4 off if you play him.

@mirran
i picked him over aven bec he is more consistent over aven in the sense it doesn't need any time to shine. the protection it has is very very good aswell. they both have pro's and cons i just felt that mirran was the better choice as it was an excellent finisher, built-in protection from some of the common cards played in the meta then.

Yes the casting cost seems taxing but i had no problem casting them.

sir
10-11-2011, 11:04 PM
It's only been 10 days since Misstep was banned and things are still pretty in flux, so I certainly wouldn't get hyper about the first wave of events, but yeah, Maverick has placed:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6911&iddeck=50120
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6911&iddeck=50120
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6906&iddeck=50094

No top 8s for Maverick this time in the big big events that have happened, SCG Nashville and SCG Indianapolis, but hey, the most magnificent finishes tended to be in Europe before too. I'm looking forward to seeing some good finishes for it in the big events to come.

Just have to wrap our heads and our builds around the new meta. Many decks didn't have to change much post-Misstep, or simply had the liberty of reverting to an earlier, cleaner build.

Whereas Maverick will need to fine-tune the adjustments and little inclusions, as always.

I think it has great chances.

If there's enough aggression maindeck good Maverick builds tend to have a very good match-up against Zoo, against Junk, and against Rock, in my experience.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6694&iddeck=48542 <---- Note the 1st place finish out of 318, and note the 3 Mirran Crusaders maindeck.

In regards to Aven Mindcensor, I also like what that deck did, with just 2 Aven Mindcensors in the board. Something to think about.

What we should think about is the Thresh aggro-control lists (lots of instants -- Stifle, lightning bolts, counterspells; some typical creatures being Delver, Nimble Mongoose, Goyf, Grim Lavamancer)that are coming out in style. My testing suggests this is a tough match-up on the face, but even or in Maverick's favor if the build is right, and, moreso, you know how to play against it. It's extremely important to make good plays and not overextend in this match.

sir
10-11-2011, 11:04 PM
It's only been 10 days since Misstep was banned and things are still pretty in flux, so I certainly wouldn't get hyper about the first wave of events, but yeah, Maverick has placed:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6911&iddeck=50114 (1st place)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6911&iddeck=50120 (7th place)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6906&iddeck=50094 (2nd place)

It didn't place in the SCG Nashville and SCG Indianapolis, but hey, the most magnificent Maverick finishes were from European pilots before too. I'm looking forward to seeing some good finishes for it in the big events to come.

Just have to wrap our heads and our builds around the new meta. Many decks didn't have to change much post-Misstep, or simply had the liberty of reverting to an earlier, cleaner build.

Whereas Maverick will need to fine-tune the adjustments and little inclusions, as always.

I think it has great chances.

If there's enough aggression maindeck good Maverick builds tend to have a very good match-up against Zoo, against Junk, and against Rock, in my experience.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6694&iddeck=48542 <---- Note the 1st place finish out of 318, and note the 3 Mirran Crusaders maindeck.

In regards to Aven Mindcensor, I also like what that deck did, with just 2 Aven Mindcensors in the board. Something to think about.

What we should think about is the Thresh aggro-control lists (lots of instants -- Stifle, lightning bolts, counterspells; some typical creatures being Delver, Nimble Mongoose, Goyf, Grim Lavamancer)that are coming out in style. My testing suggests this is a tough match-up on the face, but even or in Maverick's favor if the build is right, and, moreso, you know how to play against it. It's extremely important to make good plays and not overextend in this match.

edit to add:


[quote]I see that all of you are playing with Batterskull, really it's a good choice for this deck? Don't you want allways an Equipment that make better your creatures? Why do you want a creature with cmc 5 that if you draw without stoneforge on the battlefield is so bad?

Batterskull is awesome. It gets hardcast or hard-equipped a lot more than you think, haha. Very possible in a longer game, in which case it will probably turn the tide. But more to the point, the benefit of that one slot is rather excellent -- the amount of aggressive leverage when you complete the early play with Stoneforge is a game-winning include. You won't draw it often and it's not a bad draw because you can sneak it out with Stoneforge (and fetch something else if you're casting him) even if you drew it.

That said, do keep in mind that choosing batterskull as your fetch turn 2 is a bit more dangerous nowadays because Stoneforge gets bolted.

sir
10-11-2011, 11:22 PM
Crusaders are amazing with equipments, but less spectacular otherwise.

I think the really nice thing is protection from green. Mirran Crusader is an include that improves the aggro match-up. One problem lately is they're getting lightning bolted a lot more often than pre-Misstep, but this isn't a problem particular to Crusader.


Aven Mindcensor is awesome. It gives everybody playing fetchlands (i.e. all but Merkfolks, more or less) an average 50% probability to crack their fetchlands into nothing. It makes their Entomb, Intuition, Infernal Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order… almost useless. Sometimes you can beat storm game 1 thanks to him.

He's awesome ... I sure wish his cmc wasn't 3 though. I guess that would be too much to ask. :P

I sometimes win game 1 vs. Storm but it's usually because of Gaddock and Mother of Runes and Wasteland.

I think the biggest argument for having some quantity of Aven Mindcensor available either maindeck or board, is still vs. Natural Order.


I’m wondering about Sylvan Library. How often do you use it to draw extra cards? Maybe it could be worth to try Mirri's Guile. It can be landed earlier than the Library, profiting by your early shuffle effects (I suppose you usually play Library starting from turn 4-5, after some creatures, correct? Before, you risk to spend a critical turn doing nothing. Mirri's Guile can be played early game together with something else).

I draw with Sylvan Library all the time. This really can win the game for you IMO.

Agree that Mirri's Guile coming out turn 1 is intriguing. But I feel like there's a lot of other stuff you want to do with your first mana: Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch/Birds, GSZ for 0, plowshares their initial dude, etc. I think I'd very rarely be using the one mana and casting Mirri's Guile if I had any of these options available. Only to draw out a counter can I see that option being taken generally and it's a lot more rare to want to attempt the 'diversion' play at turn 1 I think. Whereas at the two mana section of the curve, Sylvan Library, seems a lot more attractive. Depending on everything, I can easily ponder many situations where I'd opt to play Sylvan Library over the other cmc=2 stuff , e.g. vs. Qasali Pridemage, Scryb Ranger, Stoneforge if you're trying to draw counterspells. What do you think?

edit: I think Mirri's Guile is a lot less likely to be counterspelled, to its credit.

Koby
10-12-2011, 12:53 AM
@Ruckus
Orim's Chant in place of Silence: if you side in them against Reanimator they can save you a turn even if you draw them after they reanimated.

Couple of questions about your sideboard:
Sword of Light and Shadow? When does it make the difference?
Path to Exile? Reanimator and Merfolk, or also other usages?
You seem a bit light of GY hate (just a Bog). What about your Dredge matchup?


Edit – I’m wondering about Sylvan Library. How often do you use it to draw extra cards? Maybe it could be worth to try Mirri's Guile. It can be landed earlier than the Library, profiting by your early shuffle effects (I suppose you usually play Library starting from turn 4-5, after some creatures, correct? Before, you risk to spend a critical turn doing nothing. Mirri's Guile can be played early game together with something else).

Silence and Orim's Chant are functionally identical for their intended purpose - stop Combo mid Combo, or pre-empt a good board position as a psuedo-timewalk. Orim's Chant is better in the sense that it can negate an attack outright, but I didn't have access to Chants. Silence, OTOH, can't get Misdirected (relevant vs some Reanimator and Painter's Stone lists)

SoLS is brought in against decks where SoFI is irrelevant for protection. Junk, Deadguy, and the mirror is usually where I find use for them.

PtE is brought in as extra Sword effect, typically Zoo, mirror, Junk, Reanimator, Tribal etc

RE: G/y hate - Ooze works good from the maindeck. I normally utilize Tormod's Crypt but every now and then I chance on removing it, and don't get punished by it. Dredge might be more tricky now that we don't have MM.

RE: Wasteland - I don't understand any list that doesn't include 4. Stop net decking and figure out how Wasteland fits into the deck - buys tempo with LD and maintains mana parity while developing with Noble Hierarch and KotR. Gaea's Cradle also falls into this tempo idea.

RE: Sylvan Library - this is my maindeck answer to Control. I often utilize the extra card drawing when I see good cards to take, otherwise I shuffle with fetches/KotR/GSZ/SFM to refresh. It's absolutely the reason why I can beat Junk with my list.

Philipp2293
10-12-2011, 02:11 AM
SoLaS is also insane against UWx Deck which bring in Wrath of God Postboard. Having that Fetchland for Dryad Arbor uncracked or a flash dude in hand this is often enough the recover even if you trade highly negative with the sweeper.

Fl0do
10-12-2011, 02:21 AM
I won 3 byes fpr GP Amsterdam in the GPTrial (33 Players) in Vienna with the following list:

Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasal Pridemage
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Other
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Krosan Grip
1 Serenity
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke

Round 1 vs. Mud - 2:0
Removal, Pridemage and Wastelands seal the deal in both games.

Round 2 vs. Team America - 2:0
Game 1 I fight through 1st Turn Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana (saccing 3 creatures), Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf and find no Mana for about three rounds but I still manage to win. It seemed to me that almost every card I played had the potential to win the game - btw: Flash (Mindcensor, Scryb Ranger) > Planeswalkers.
Game 2 he is manascrewed and I have Wastelands, short fight.

Round 3 vs. Maverick - 2:0
Game 1 I need two Swords to Plowshares against his Mother of Runes and the break the stall with my own mother.
Game 2 he uses Geen Sun's Zenith for multiple Hierarchs and gets a Thrun out, but I then have Stoneforge -> Umezawa's Jitte and a Wasteland to end the game.

Round 4 vs. Reanimator - 2:1
Game 1 I got Mindcensor and a fast clock.
Game 2 Jin Gitaxias > Maverick.
Game 3 I get an active Knight of the Reliquary and Phyrexian Metamorph copying the Knight to end the game with a single attack for 15 after exiling his graveyard with Bog and wasting my own Bog (1/1 Dryad Arbor and two 7/7 Knights).

Round 5 vs. Reanimator - 1:2
Game 1 Mulligan into Scavenging Ooze, he can't handle that.
Game 2 I loose to Elehs Norn.
Game 3 he gets a Iona on white and that's enough.

Round 6 vs. Spiral Tide - 2:1
Game 1 he fizzles against 2 Aven Mindcensors.
Game 2 I got a Mindcensor in response to Merchant Scroll, but he doesn't fizzles.
Game 3 I start with Hierarch, Thorn of Amethyst and E-Tutor on Canonist. Mother of Runes with Gaddock Teeg seal the deal.

I'm second after Swiss and get a REV Volcanic Island.

Top 8:

Round 1 vs. Dredge - 2:0
Game 1 I have a Qasali Pridemage and a Sword of Feast and Famine, but I have to sac because of 3 Bridge from Below. After that he has bad luck with his dredgers and I have a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull to end the game.
Game 2 Relic of Progenitus and Scavenging Ooze with 6 green Mana seal the deal.

Round 2 vs. Dredge - 2:0
He is not sure if he goes to the GP and concedes, thx man!

Round 3 vs. Reanimator (opponent from Round 4) - 2:0
We both have the byes and he concedes to me, because I have less planeswalker points.

Nice tournament and nice deck!

Morte
10-12-2011, 02:38 AM
Hello
Just wondering.., have you guys seen any maverick decks made it into the top 8 or 16 after misstep was banned ?

Really? Maverick T8ed both last two big events I've played "after Misstep" in Milan - OvinoSex (382 players) two weeks ago, and Legacy Side Event at GP Milan last Saturday (188 players).

_erbs_
10-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Really? Maverick T8ed both last two big events I've played "after Misstep" in Milan - OvinoSex (382 players) two weeks ago, and Legacy Side Event at GP Milan last Saturday (188 players).

Thats good then, i guess its too early to tell, but i was guessing that with snapcaster decks and other popping up tempo ugr, etc., maverick will have a hard time dealing with them.

Philipp2293
10-12-2011, 10:36 AM
These decks are still beatable with tight play and proper 75 card selection. Combo is the main worry. I'm already at a point where I consider mostly giving up on combo and improving my MU vs U-Decks.

Morte
10-12-2011, 10:47 AM
I agree. Snapcaster and UGR tempo decks are actually growing in popularity, but I don’t think it’s bad news for Maverick. Such matchups are 50-50 at worst. If you’re looking for bad news after the ban of Misstep, look at the rise of combo at most. Anyway, I don’t think you should give up the combo matchup, with a proper sideboard we’re ok. A clock and Enlightened Tutor package + Mindbreak Trap or Silence/Orim’s Chant is quite robust.

Edit 1:
Looking around for new ideas, I noticed Realms Uncharted from current Eva Green builds, usually as a 2of. Could this card make the cut in Maverick? Pros:

More mana
Pumps Knights and ‘vore
Interaction with Eternal Witness for a real land tutor effect (can get 1ofs – Karakas, Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, Bojuka Bog...)
Interaction with Life from the Loam for a real tutor effect (same as above)
Card Advantage?


Typical land choice could be:
Heat, other fetch1, other fetch2, basic/Savannah/Wasteland

Edit 2:
They published the summary of OvinoSex in Milan (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=405037#405037) (biggest Legacy event in Italy, 388 players this year). Maverick was by far the most popular deck. Coverage:

36 Maverick
29 Merfolk
25 Zoo
24 Canadian
23 Ant/Tes
21 Spiral Tide
19 NO RUG
13 Reanimator
13 Dredge
12 NLU
12 Burn
11 Thopter Combo
11 Team America
9 Belcher
8 Rock
8 MUD
8 Bant
7 URG Control
7 Goblin
6 Landeed
6 Hive Mind
6 Affinity
4 White Weenie
4 Team Italia
4 sneack attack
4 junk
4 Caw Blade
3 Stiflenought
3 pikula
3 Pattern Combo
3 Faery Stoneforge
3 Eva Green
3 enchantress
3 Elf Combo
2 UW Control
2 show and tell
2 Painter
2 Landstill
2 Infect
2 Dragon Stompy
2 Dark *****
2 Aggroloam
1 White Stax
1 UR Ninja
1 Ur control
1 stoneforge TA
1 Splinter Twin
1 show and tell NO
1 most
1 Mono U
1 Mono Black
1 Mesmeric Orb Combo
1 eureka.deck
1 dream halls
1 Defense NO
1 Dark Depths
1 cephalid breakfast
1 Birting Pod
1 Aluren

Top 8:
1 Team America
2 Robin UGR
3 Thopter Combo
4 Spiral Tide
5 Maverick
6 Canadian
7 No RUG
8 Canadian

Best result for Maverick was 5th place. This is the list (by Andrea Giarola):

3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SIDE
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke


Sorry for the long post.

Fatal
10-14-2011, 05:16 AM
@Morte

Thank you very much for report.

Looks like in Amsterdam a lot of mirrors going to happends. As far as I know best weapon in mirrors are submerges with U splash and more removal spells, but as like in most mirrors winning a roll is the tech to victory and good playing. Also Mindcensors are very good here.

Philipp2293
10-14-2011, 06:21 AM
Morte, this is an interesting suggestion. One of the pro points you forgot to mention: Pulling 4 lands from your deck at once should have a significant thinning effect. Which leads also to a minor con: If you pull utility lands, you don't have them in your deck for future Knight activations, so without Witness this line of play becomes weaker.

Also, concerning that list, I think it's quite brave to cut Gaddock from MD, concerning that TES/ANT and Spiral Tide were both well presented, but it worked out, after all :)

DragoFireheart
10-14-2011, 08:54 AM
I've never played Maverick and I'm curious about one thing: why are some lists running 1 or 0 Tarmogoyfs? is Scavenging Ooze better? Is Kotor better? I thought he was a relatively decent creature despite being a vanilla beater. What is it I am missing?

Philipp2293
10-14-2011, 09:00 AM
You pretty much answered your own question: At the 2 mana slot the ooze offers more utility with the possibility of outgrowing goyfs, and since you basically run 8 Knights due to Zenith, you don't need additional vanilla fat.

Also, you have equipment to upgrade your smaller utility dudes.

Pretty much the only time in the last months were I wish I had Goyf as target was when I was screwed on 3 Mana and was facing 2 Goyfs across from me to halt the assault a littel. In the end, I got Scry Ranger and in the end it still worked out. No need.

mordraid
10-14-2011, 11:29 AM
I've never played Maverick and I'm curious about one thing: why are some lists running 1 or 0 Tarmogoyfs? is Scavenging Ooze better? Is Kotor better? I thought he was a relatively decent creature despite being a vanilla beater. What is it I am missing?

Tarmogoyf is a great creature. However, it got no abilities, it's not an utility creature. It's only a beater, wich maverick already got in the form of Knight of the reliquary. Scavenging ooze by itself is not better that goyf, but it can win you matchups that would be almost auto-loose if you don't have it. (reanimator-dredge)

Tarmogoyf just don't fit into the concept of the maverick deck.

menace13
10-15-2011, 03:13 AM
Green Zenith took out Goyfs from the deck completely. It saw play but not after Zenith. SFM into Batterskull or any equipment plus any exalted triggers trumps Goyf. With access to anywhere from 5 to 8 QPM, Ooze, Teeg, KotR, Scryb, Noble, Witness, Thrun and Terravore, The deck does not have the room any longer or the need.

Zenith propelled Maverick to one of the best decks in the format. The whole Tutor and put it in play for only 1 extra mana makes the card busted. I feel E Tutor is the best thing this deck can do in the Sideboard, it increases the access, range and depth. Combined with disruptive creatures that can be tutored-with Zenith or Enlightened- gives it a chance to beat anything.

Morte
10-15-2011, 03:44 PM
Question: would you side in graveyard hate against Snapcaster decks? Let's say I’m playing against Blade Control, and my sideboard is something like:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Serenity
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Orim's Chant

I could side in:

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst ?
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon / Tormod's Crypt ?

An early Wheel makes Snappy pretty awkward but is less than spectacular later, while Crypt is one shot but of sure effect. I'm quite sure of the Bog, little downside in siding out a land. Thoughts?

Fatal
10-16-2011, 06:02 AM
I wouldn't put more GY hate vs those decks, maybe only replace MD Maze for Bojuka and that's enough. Scavenging Ooze + Bojuka is enough. All cards like Crypt/Wheel will be card disadvantage here.

Chokes are mostly enough, Thron of Amethyst depends on your build but most its a quite good card in this MU.

Esper3k
10-16-2011, 06:25 AM
I generally don't like bringing in eTutors against decks that run countermagic (unless they're combo) since if they counter what you tutored up, you just got 2 for 1'd.

TossUsToLions
10-16-2011, 11:42 PM
I generally don't like bringing in eTutors against decks that run countermagic (unless they're combo) since if they counter what you tutored up, you just got 2 for 1'd.

If they Force whatever you search for, you actually get 2 for 2'd, but I see your point. But against some of these decks, resolving a Choke is almost an auto-win, so the E.Tutors might be worth it to bring in just to fetch them.

Do others not bring in E.Tutor against blue? I just switched to an E.Tutor board (yesterday) and I am curious about this issue.

lordofthepit
10-16-2011, 11:45 PM
If they Force whatever you search for, you actually get 2 for 2'd, but I see your point. But against some of these decks, resolving a Choke is almost an auto-win, so the E.Tutors might be worth it to bring in just to fetch them.

Do others not bring in E.Tutor against blue? I just switched to an E.Tutor board (yesterday) and I am curious about this issue.

I haven't played with an Enlightened Tutor board much (doing so only several times as a Zoo player), and I avoid bringing in that package against Countermagic. In fact, I don't use an Enlightened Tutor package much at all when I expect a lot of blue (as is usually the case in my metagame).

I do like it when I expect a lot of Storm, Dredge, Lands, and maybe Affinity. Then I'll devote whatever I can from the rest of the sideboard to other matchups.

lordofthepit
10-16-2011, 11:45 PM
If they Force whatever you search for, you actually get 2 for 2'd, but I see your point. But against some of these decks, resolving a Choke is almost an auto-win, so the E.Tutors might be worth it to bring in just to fetch them.

Do others not bring in E.Tutor against blue? I just switched to an E.Tutor board (yesterday) and I am curious about this issue.

I haven't played with an Enlightened Tutor board much (doing so only several times as a Zoo player), and I avoid bringing in that package against Countermagic. In fact, I don't use an Enlightened Tutor package much at all when I expect a lot of blue (as is usually the case in my metagame).

I do like it when I expect a lot of Storm, Dredge, Lands, and maybe Affinity. Then I'll devote whatever I can from the rest of the sideboard to other matchups.

f|i[p]
10-17-2011, 12:34 AM
@Morte

Boarding against UW.. snapcaster is quite a problem...as normally its hard to figure out whats good to board out..

Everything maindeck seems to work great against them...

but when they bring in 4 paths... +4 swords. + 4 snapcasters.. + wog... it becomes a real head ache..

Personally however I woudn't take off maze of ith for a bog.. since I think a vendillion or a sprite would be too much of a problem when equipped with SFaF..they can do so many tricks with untapping lands and riptide,specially block bouncing.... Might even render chokes useless..

one of the things I thought of and could work against them is Ethersworn cannonist... it will render snapcasters useless...MOm with cannonist is also a pain.....What to take out for them...Its depends on what cards you deem important vs them.

Scavenging ooze might work against them.. but only towards later or mid game...

Chokes are definitely a must side in...as well as maybe a piece of tutor...

I am not worried about getting the chokes countered towards later on.. since normally they have lot's of things to counter early... Just make a good choice for counter bait...

Morte
10-17-2011, 05:30 AM
Thanks everybody for the feedback.
Yesterday I played in a 97 players tournament in Legnano, ended 5-2-0.

My list:

4 Windswepth Heat
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
1 Driad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Serenity
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Orim's Chant


Mini report:

Game 1: UWr Blade Control 2-0
I was curios about this Snapcaster matchup, but in the end it has been quite easy. Game 2 I just sided in Bog, a couple of Chokes and a Tutor, which I used to fetch a Jitte that closed the game.

Game 2: Merfolk 1-2
Shame on me :tongue:

Game 3: BG The Gate 2-1
He plays a lot of removals and some discard – Gatekeeper, Liliana, Hymn, Perish after side… But I succeed playing more threats that he can remove

Game 4: UGR NO 2-1
Game 1 I can’t stop T3 Hydra. Later he sided out FoW, I suppose, becoming too weak against my hate.

Game 5: UGR Canadian 2-0
Game 1 I play more mana than he can disrupt and Delver + Mongoose < my threats. Game 2 I’m the tempo deck, I waste a Tropical and a Volcanic and he’s totally mana screwed.

Game 6: UGR Robin 1-2
This is a very interesting match. Oppo is a very good player called Paxxu: he won the Ovino and T8ed the last 5 tournaments he played in a row with this deck. He plays regular UGR staff (Brainstorm, Ponder, FoW, Clique, Hierarch, Goyf, Bolt) plus Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows and Bloodbraid Elf + Ancestral Vision (which is a free Ancestral Recall if you flip it with the elf).
Game 1 I draw very well and win, later I’m less lucky. Guess I had to keep my Wastelands for his Groves. I just sided in two Chokes against him, not sure if a Wheel could be worth (game 2 and 3 he destroyed me with Punishing Fire).

Game 7: Reanimator 2-1
Game 1 I lose to Elesh Norn + Sphynx. Game 2 and 3 I side in my 11 hate cards and win.

I ended 14th and won a DCI Goblin Welder.

Top 8:
Maverick
Maverick
Reanimator
Reanimator
Blade Control
Zoo
Robin
(don’t remember)

Winner: Reanimator
2nd: Maverick. Same guy who finished 5th at the Ovino, very good player. He doesn’t play Batterskull but Jitte, SoFaI and SoLaS, with 3 Mindcensors, 2 Rangers and a BoP in place of the 4th Hierarch, maybe to have one more flyer.

The Reanimator deck was quite impressive too. He was able to pass by GY hate with Show and Tell. Maybe I’ll add one or two Path to Exile next time.
Against Show and Tell, being ready to respond by tutoring for Phyrexian Metamorph and drawing with Canopy could be a good play. EDIT: Not possible. "The Metamorph's ability (and copy effects like that in general) can only copy things that are on the battlefield before the Metamorph enters the battlefield. Because with Show & Tell, both objects enter the battlefield simultaneously, Emrakul won't meet that condition to be copied" (Esper3k)

lordofthepit
10-17-2011, 05:46 AM
The Reanimator deck was quite impressive too. He was able to pass by GY hate with Show and Tell. Maybe I’ll add one or two Path to Exile next time. Against Show and Tell, being ready to respond by tutoring for Phyrexian Metamorph and drawing with Canopy could be a good play.

If you're hoping to drop Phyrexian Metamorph off of Show and Tell and copy the creature they tutored for, you're out of luck. You can't copy that creature.

You can copy the creature if you hardcast it after the Show and Tell, but I assume that's not what you were going for (since you mentioned drawing it at instant speed with the Horizon Canopy).

lordofthepit
10-17-2011, 05:46 AM
The Reanimator deck was quite impressive too. He was able to pass by GY hate with Show and Tell. Maybe I’ll add one or two Path to Exile next time. Against Show and Tell, being ready to respond by tutoring for Phyrexian Metamorph and drawing with Canopy could be a good play.

If you're hoping to drop Phyrexian Metamorph off of Show and Tell and copy the creature they tutored for, you're out of luck. You can't copy that creature.

You can copy the creature if you hardcast it after the Show and Tell, but I assume that's not what you were going for (since you mentioned drawing it at instant speed with the Horizon Canopy).

Morte
10-17-2011, 06:01 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I thought that, entering the battlefield at the same time, oppo’s creature was a legal target. Why exactly it doesn’t work?

Esper3k
10-17-2011, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I thought that, entering the battlefield at the same time, oppo’s creature was a legal target. Why exactly it doesn’t work?

First, the Metamorph's ability doesn't target (which is why it can copy Progenitus).

The Metamorph's ability (and copy effects like that in general) can only copy things that are on the battlefield before the Metamorph enters the battlefield. Because with Show & Tell, both objects enter the battlefield simultaneously, Emrakul won't meet that condition to be copied.

Morte
10-17-2011, 01:32 PM
Clear, post fixed.

What do you think about the plan of not playing Batterskull at all, and instead playing a package of Jitte and two different swords? With a good number of flyers, such as 3 Mindcensors, 2 Rangers and maybe a BoP? There would be a great versatility in terms of choosing the best protection and the most useful form of CA, at the cost of dropping the most "broken" combo with SFM...

Philipp2293
10-17-2011, 02:14 PM
Let me tell you that I've dropped Batterskull, cause for me it has been mediocre at best. I think a big part of the problem is it's high equip cost. He is not so relevant for us in comparison to UWx Control, which need the body to protect Jace and the lifegain to stabilize. I pretty much always tutored for something else.

Jitte and SoLaS is standard for me, for the third sword I think I have to go back to SoFaI, pro: Jace, Clique, Snapcaster and Lavamancer sounds very hot currently.

GoblinZ
10-17-2011, 02:25 PM
I donnot like Batterskull either, I think it is only good against zoo, but now zoo tends to disappear...

majikal
10-17-2011, 07:40 PM
I haven't been liking equipment in general the last few weeks. I'm currently running a blue splash, dropping SFM and equips for Jace and Daze. So far it has been incredible, winning me a top8 slot at the last SCG Open.

Cruser
10-18-2011, 02:22 AM
I haven't been liking equipment in general the last few weeks. I'm currently running a blue splash, dropping SFM and equips for Jace and Daze. So far it has been incredible, winning me a top8 slot at the last SCG Open.


Would like too see this list I just cant see how that will work.

Fatal
10-18-2011, 04:20 AM
Exactly the same as Aggro Bant is working with GSZ, I tested this version and its strong, It can also be called NoFoW similar version was played by Rynkiewicz on one of the SCG. Also daze can be replaced by stifles so more similar to New Horizons. Those version has better MU with Combo but, worst with Merfolks, the choose is yours :).

slaydo
10-18-2011, 04:58 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41202

like the deck, however the creature count is really low imho. In maverick I play 27 creatures including dryad arbor. Adding blue not only destroys 1 key trait of this deck: being able to effectively withstand wasteland abuse by the opp but also can cause inconsistency imho. I played bant aggro before moving into maverick and the 1 thing I am happy about is it being very consistent. Playing more fetch makes it more susceptible to stifle shenanigans and opponent's mindcensors(when playing in the mirror obv.)

I agree with the equipment package not being effective. Late game however, batterskull can be totally awesomenuts to draw. in the early game yes it sux when SFM gets plowed/bolted/insert removal XYZ. However in the long run it will pay dividends because you have a threat to break a stall.

for reference here is my list. It's not a fancy "kill you now" deck, it grinds and that is fine with me. It has sooooo many answers to different kinds of threats I keep going back to it after trying something new. What do you think on my deck?

2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red

Esper3k
10-18-2011, 08:17 AM
Batterskull has been fairly underwhelming for me as well. It's usually the second equipment I'll get since when they kill your Mystic, you can at least fairly easily still cast Jitte / Swords.

However, I still think it is needed for the option of turning your SFM into a threatening attacker.

Asthereal
10-18-2011, 10:21 AM
I moved Batterskull to the sideboard again too.
It was bad for me, sticking in my hand way too often.
I just died before I could use it.
The main problem is that this deck cannot protect SFM effectively.

My question of the day is:
How badly do we need Aven Mindcensor?

Is seems bad against about 70% of my meta, but it seems good against my least favorite matchups. Do I invest three spots in a card that is good against 30% of the meta, but my toughest 30%, and bad against my good matchups, despite that being about 70% of the meta?

Koby
10-18-2011, 11:26 AM
I would advocate for a 2nd Scavenging Ooze. It's highly relevant in many metagame, stops Snapcaster Mage and Reanimator together, and shrinks opposing Goyfs. I think that any list that still runs Tarmogoyf should consider whether they actually need it. In metagames with Zoo, it's warranted. In other metagames, not so much.

Morte
10-18-2011, 12:34 PM
My question of the day is:
How badly do we need Aven Mindcensor?

Is seems bad against about 70% of my meta, but it seems good against my least favorite matchups. Do I invest three spots in a card that is good against 30% of the meta, but my toughest 30%, and bad against my good matchups, despite that being about 70% of the meta?

Could you explain your %? Mindcensor is brutal card advantage agaist everything with fetchlands, i.e. everything but Merfolks. I'd say it's side effect is very useful agaist 90% of the format. Plus, it's one of our few creatures with evasion, very relevant to profit our SoXaY.
About the number, I'm playing it as a 2of atm.


I would advocate for a 2nd Scavenging Ooze. It's highly relevant in many metagame, stops Snapcaster Mage and Reanimator together, and shrinks opposing Goyfs. I think that any list that still runs Tarmogoyf should consider whether they actually need it. In metagames with Zoo, it's warranted. In other metagames, not so much.

I came to similar conclusions, but am not sure about if and what to cut. (But, tbh, Ooze doesn't totally stop Reanimator, now they always play Show and Tell).

Fatal
10-18-2011, 12:52 PM
Goyf is still the biggest body in 2cmc slot, I don't see this deck has problems with any tempo deck or reanimator. About Avens - some ppl don't like then bacuse their effect on game isn't visible unless your oppnent tell that :]

Maëlig
10-18-2011, 05:17 PM
I would advocate for a 2nd Scavenging Ooze. It's highly relevant in many metagame, stops Snapcaster Mage and Reanimator together, and shrinks opposing Goyfs. I think that any list that still runs Tarmogoyf should consider whether they actually need it. In metagames with Zoo, it's warranted. In other metagames, not so much.

I have to agree with that. Cut whatever random shit you're using to fill your last slots (witness, thrun and the like are all pretty meh imo), and put a 2nd ooze. It's just that good. I probably won't go up to a 3rd though, since it's useless to have multiples on the board simultaneously.

Asthereal
10-18-2011, 06:06 PM
Explaining my %s on the Mindcensor argument:
- When you play it, your opponent normally already has two lands out. If they know you carry Mindcensors (and GW usually does) they fetch turn 1 and play normal lands afterwards. Stopping fetch is a bonus imo, no realistic threat.
- Mindcensor is good, and needed versus: Natural Order, Zeniths for big ass beasts, Stoneforges, Infernal Tutors, and maybe that blue instant tutor I cannot remember the name of right now. Entomb is already played when you get the Mindcensor out usually.
- I always play at least two main deck Elspeths for evasion and just plain awesomeness.

So: how big a part of my meta is NO RUG, Storm Combo, Stoneblade or Mirror? Not that much. I expect a lot of Tempo Thresh, Zoo, Merfolk, a Goblins revival, Snapcaster Mages with random support and so on. I expect the meta in GP Amsterdam to be 30% NO RUG, Storm, Stoneblade and Maverick, and 70% other. Seems a realistic estimation. And Stoneblade and the mirror are definitely winnable without Mindcensors (Elspeth ftw!).

Morte
10-19-2011, 02:47 AM
Explaining my %s on the Mindcensor argument:
- When you play it, your opponent normally already has two lands out. If they know you carry Mindcensors (and GW usually does) they fetch turn 1 and play normal lands afterwards.

Ok, but in my experience, even if they play card selection in any form - Brainstorm, Top, Sylvan Library…, it’s not a choice of theirs to play just “normal lands afterwards”. They’ll still draw some fetchland, because, even if they manipulate their draw to get a non-fetch land, unless they don’t shuffle their library afterwards (and again, waste a card to Mindcensor) all those fetchlands are going to cumulate on the top of their deck, worsening their card selection.

Add your Wastelands if they have few lands in play, and a frequent scenario where they don’t have card selection tools right after you played your censor, and you get the point.

Fl0do
10-19-2011, 03:27 AM
Regarding Aven Mindcensor: Shutting down tutors can win you the match and also Flash can be important, against Planeswalkers for example. Flashing in a EOT Aven Mindcensor helped me beating an active Jace or an active Liliana several times.

And a timely Aven Mindcensor will always give you an advantage against almost every deck you will face.

allek
10-19-2011, 03:28 AM
I've played this deck since february and I'm taking it to Amsterdam this weekend. In our local weekly tournaments (~15-20 players), Merfolks have been the deck winning the most last month. Generally, Merfolks is a fine matchup for our deck where we can just play dudes and match their aggro plan. Also, Scryb Ranger is superb. For Sideboard, I take out Aven Mindcensor and Teeg and add some removal and Chokes.

Recently however, I'm 0-3 in games against Merfolks, mainly because the player playing the deck is VERY good and because Dismember is an awesome addition to that deck. Post-board, the matchup is worse because Submerge is a beating.

Has anybody any thought on how to improve this matchup? Sideboarding suggestions?
I play neither Batterskull nor Path to Exile and think they would have little impact in this match anyway.

BlackStarDeceiver
10-19-2011, 05:52 AM
Try Summoning Trap instead of Choke, i've been a fan since i first tried, just take a look at it.

Maëlig
10-19-2011, 06:15 AM
If you're really worried about targeted removal (not just in the folk MU), play sylvan safekeeper as a x1, for 5 (1 + 4 GSZ) extra pseudo-mother.

Fatal
10-19-2011, 06:56 AM
You should try Batterskull here - its very good mostly its 2 for 1. Chokes are rather poor eveything what you need is removal. I used Wing Shards which works very well (doing 2-for-1) also I would took out Gaddock in this MU, it supress their sb -> Submerges. You can also bring Dueling Grounds which also works quite well against them.

haku
10-19-2011, 07:25 AM
i would not take away the chokes from the sideboard. It's a good threat against uw blade, canadian, team america, landstill and spiral tide...

What do you think about mortarpod against peacekeepers? I was thinking about place 1 in sideboard against blade.

I have some doubts about a card: Maze of Ith, it is really that good?

ateu89
10-19-2011, 08:00 AM
i would not take away the chokes from the sideboard. It's a good threat against uw blade, canadian, team america, landstill and spiral tide...

What do you think about mortarpod against peacekeepers? I was thinking about place 1 in sideboard against blade.

I have some doubts about a card: Maze of Ith, it is really that good?

Yes, it is, by itself and with Dueling Grounds in SB can be better.

BlueNevus
10-19-2011, 10:11 AM
If you're really worried about targeted removal (not just in the folk MU), play sylvan safekeeper as a x1, for 5 (1 + 4 GSZ) extra pseudo-mother.


This is what I would do if you want to beat the UW 4xSTP,4xPTE,4xSnapcaster deck. Seems like those decks are lowering their Wasteland count, so you can afford to sac a land or two.

Esper3k
10-19-2011, 11:08 AM
As others have said, Batterskull is really good against Merfolk, especially if you're playing the non-blue builds.

Personally, I've always just found dropping a Jitte and stabbing them with the pointy stick to be very effective.

Asthereal
10-19-2011, 11:13 AM
I completely smashed Merfolk. But maybe that's because I always play SoFaI either main or side. For the rest I use additional Pridemages, Paths and a Dueling Grounds without tutor for it as sideboard 'tricks' against them. Mindcensors go out. Additional Pridemages are important for their nasty stealing spell for U which I forgot the name of. :P

I have contemplated the Mindcensors for about a week and decided I will play three of them main deck. They help bad mmatchups and get boarded out against the rest. I think I will need them too badly to not play them at the GP.

haku
10-19-2011, 11:19 AM
Additional Pridemages are important for their nasty stealing spell for U which I forgot the name of. :P

Mind Harness ;)

Koby
10-19-2011, 12:46 PM
SoFI, extrs PtE, Moms, Scryb Ranger, and Teeg are good against Merfolk. Specifically, Teeg against Submerge is huge. I typically get SoFI first unless I see more than one lord in play. In which case I get Batterskull or Jitte as required and depending on available mana. I keep Mindcensor in strictly as vasion beater. Oftentimes you can lock the ground with Mom and KotR and beat for 2-3 with Mindcensor or Ranger. Ranger is really a bomb here by allowing you to attack with Knight or use Mom twice a turn. Playing around Daze is also important.

TossUsToLions
10-19-2011, 12:47 PM
Has anybody any thought on how to improve this matchup? Sideboarding suggestions?
I play neither Batterskull nor Path to Exile and think they would have little impact in this match anyway.

But those two do have an impact in this matchup. Just get a Jitte/SoFaI (or even a Batterskull) as soon as you can and use your removal on their biggest threats. They can't counter everything. We have SFM, equipment, Scryb Ranger, KotR, Mom, removal and other SB options that are must-counters. It's just too many threats. Also, post-board, bring in Dueling Grounds. It beats them.

BlueNevus
10-19-2011, 01:00 PM
On Batterskull: The problem of having protection for Mystic is simple to solve. If you have Mother/Safekeeper out, search for batterskull, if not, don't search for Batterskull. Batterskull crushes many decks, and Mother protecting t2 Mystic provides better protection than almost all other decks have access to (t4 Mystic with countertop lock?)

la loutre
10-19-2011, 02:15 PM
hello sourcers!

playing the deck since 1 year, and mindsencor MD since SotF aws DTB, i'm now really reconsidereing the card.

-mindsecnsor:

I noticed the cards is only goods against bad players that get impaled when you got 3 lands untap and he tries a intuition ,or infernal tutor, or NO.
the creatures at begins was really crazy, by crushing some waste.
now every one knows the card is MD, and nobody get tricksed by it.

actullay, I think the cards is only good for mirror matches, because it has so many spell to respond(GSZ, SFM, KotR,fetches) make the card good on early,middle and late game.

but you can't decently think that you will beat a entomb, intuition (hive mind is nightmare MU) or IT against a good player on a GP.

I will start the GP with 3 byes, and for sure, all my opponents will know my MD exactly at lesat 2/3 randomn slot as we can see here.

I' thinking of playing mirran crusader instead, because are goods on mirror too, and it's wonderfull creature on TA metagame.
what do you think about the switch?



-Merfolk:
I don't understand you'r worring about the MU, it's really good

-bad MU:
instead I'm worring about hive mind (my only tech is surgical on the intuitionned card), choke looks really bad here, angel grace is good, but can be used only for this MU, this is too expenseive SB slot.
strom.deck are nightmares too. Netherland player get the reputation of playing storm.deck. I 'm serioulsy thinking about playing a set a blue trap SB. because the bears turn 2 are really too slow here.


-batterskull:

the card is good for sure. but has another one tell it, it's really good only against Zoo.
Sofaf on a TA metagame seems better, Solas for the mirror, and jitte forever.
I thnik batterskull is better for a metagame with many big control deck(resist from pernicious deed, and directly gives you the creature too equip)

in a the GP metgame ,I don't think this is the best choice.
My gauntlet for the GP is:

-TA(good MD, really hard post SB, need to side in revoker naming deed)
-Tempo Thresh (always closed with fucking grim, side on revokers too, to name them)
-réanimator , good MU
-storm.deck, really hard
-merfolk, good MU
-Mirror, (revoker power)

revoker is really a good SB cards, siding on against merfolk too (vial/coralhelm)

Morte
10-19-2011, 03:08 PM
-mindsecnsor:

I noticed the cards is only goods against bad players that get impaled when you got 3 lands untap and he tries a intuition ,or infernal tutor, or NO.

Seriously? This doesn’t make sense at all… unless you think the anti-tutoring effect of Aven Mindcensor works only when it comes into play. Which is pretty unbelievable if it’s true it’s one year you play this deck. Please read the card more carefully before going to Amsterdam with your 3 byes... With Aven Mindcensor in play, Entomb and Intuition are useless forever, until they’re able to remove it.


the creatures at begins was really crazy, by crushing some waste.

[+other brilliant stuff, like fear of Hive Mind at the GP and suggestion of Revoker...]

OMG... Maybe this is just trolling :wink:
Is this a desperate attempt to improve your bad matchup against Maverick?

la loutre
10-19-2011, 03:40 PM
omg!

of course I know the text of my cards ^^
just top 8 this deck so many time,and in frencj legacy championship too.
My english isn't very good ,that's why I don't used to post here, just don't treat me has a noob ;)

I just mean, when you give the turn without threat on board, and keep 3 mana untap, If your opponent decide to play intuition EOT that means:
-he got the counter for the mindenscor/removal
-he doesnt absolutly need to resolve intuition FTW
or
he absolutly need to resolve it FTW, and you are able to steal a game.

against infernal tutor, and so combo storm, you are not able to play the bluff, skip a turn to plauy a thraet without the mindsencor in hand. your opponent ,wich we can considering isn't a ***, won't goes to combo if he has the time without play a discard card before.
so your turn 2 flying bear won't hit.

against fetches it's good against hight CC spell like Jace, not really in early game, because skipping turn 2 with noble+2land untap clearly means you got it.

of course it's not a CIT effect, but, if you skip turn 2 or 3 with 3 mana untap, then your opponent don(t resolve fetch during his turn. what will you do at the end of his turn??????
give him a time walk with doing nothing?
or play you 2/1 fly, then your opponent will be able to resolve the fetch normally?

for sur I won't give the time walk.


the creatures at begins was really crazy, by crushing some waste.

of course, my mistake. I'd say fetches of course :/


I'm not really saying mindsencor is bad.
just it's not as strong as it was, when the deck was considering has a randomn deck, and when your opponent treat you as retards when he see a G/W deck without goyfs and FoW then "player lost".

I mean ,it's easy for every deck to play around it.
the only deck who can't, it's the mirror.

and I really think these 2/3 slots could be used for better cards.

EDIT:

sory but i'm not sure that I understood this:

[+other brilliant stuff, like fear of Hive Mind at the GP and suggestion of Revoker...]

you won't considering hive mind for GP?
and what about revoker? this is really good SB card, creature, holds TA (deed/jace) LS Ubg (jace deed, EE), mirror (near like all the deck,better against vial mav'), merfolk (vial, flying lord),and some random (welder MUD,thopter.deck,caw blade,)...... and other cool thing like LED,monolith etc.......

aren't SB cards made to be good and versatile???

Morte
10-19-2011, 03:58 PM
of course it's not a CIT effect, but, if you skip turn 2 or 3 with 3 mana untap, then your opponent don(t resolve fetch during his turn. what will you do at the end of his turn??????
give him a time walk with doing nothing?

Ok. And since everybody know what you're going to do if you pass with 3 mana open, isn't just better to play Mindcensor in your turn, BEFORE he can play his fetchland/Intuition?


you won't considering hive mind for GP?
No. Combo players have better choices after Misstep is out. Show and Tell will be played in Reanimator and Sneak and Tell.


and what about revoker? this is really good SB card.......aren't SB cards made to be good and versatile???

Yes, in fact you can do the same thing with Pithing Needle, which is much harder to remove (for example, you mentioned your will to use Revoker against Lavamancers... As if such decks aren't full of burn to fry your Revoker immediately. Revoker is better than Needle against ANT/TES and nothing else).

mordraid
10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Yes, in fact you can do the same thing with Pithing Needle, which is much harder to remove (for example, you mentioned your will to use Revoker against Lavamancers... As if such decks aren't full of burn to fry your Revoker immediately. Revoker is better than Needle against ANT/TES and nothing else).

I was thinking the same thing. I use pithing needle instead of revokers because opponents often more creature removal after sideboarding. With the needle you just make sure that your silver bullet will stick in play.

slaydo
10-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Guys,

how do you feel about Andrea Giarola´s deck from the Ovino_Sex tournament held in Italy with 390 players? i am finalizing my list in for GP Amsterdam and out of curiosity I have been testing this list to decide if this would work for me. Here is the list for reference.

3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sword of Feast And Famine
1 Sword of Fire And Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Krosan Grip

I understand why he doesnt play enlightened tutor. with the 2 sylvan libraries he can dig really deep fast and find answers to threats whilst having enough odds to draw into them in the opening 7. I cant decide if I want to play mirran crusader in the deck or not. Plz help!!

thanks,

Slaydo

Fatal
10-19-2011, 05:49 PM
Agree on above post Mindceonsor is so hard to play around as Vendilion Clique, It can't be played around since all things like Infernal Tutor/Merchant Scroll/GSZ are sorcery, only thing which can be played around are fetches, which aren't main target of censors.

Revokers are really bad IMO since all players will board in creatures removal.. so Pithing Needle will be always better, also Pithing cards in mirror are double axe since you can't also search/use those utilities (Censors are asimetrical so much better here).

la loutre
10-19-2011, 06:48 PM
FATAL:

I wasn't comparing needle or revoker to mindsencor.

but needle to revoker.

needle is harder to remove , right.
but in wich MU will you SB needle?, I see only Jace/deed.deck. not sure that will be a serious threat at GP
in mirror i definitely dont like needle, where revoker can be equiped, and is colorless (mother)
I think needle is better only against heavy control (jace/deed/EE) considering only tier 1/2 decks

I will definitely not board it against merfolk/tempo-grim, where a creature would be better (still because of the equipement argument, then mother can protect him,or simply gives a turn of chump blok)
And as you said it, it's good againt combo to name LED.



MORTE:

yes,I agree with

Ok. And since everybody know what you're going to do if you pass with 3 mana open, isn't just better to play Mindcensor in your turn, BEFORE he can play his fetchland/Intuition?


EVERYBODY:

what are your techs against combo?
enlighted+canonist is correct, but so slow.
worldly+gaddok/mother is near the same
LL of sanctity is not that much good (turn O on mulligan,will be owned by bounces)

I tried really many different thing on testing the matchup with no limit of side slot.
whatever I do, it's not better than 60/40 on the play for mav, and 40/60 on the draw post SB
the MU really looks like impossible, unless stole the game with bad mulligan or many brew with cantrip fr your opponent.

Esper3k
10-19-2011, 07:12 PM
To me, Mindcensor is one of those cards where yes, there's of course something better, but the times you need it (against combo), it's just part of the overall package to try and slow them down long enough for you to kill them.

I think the GW lists can afford to cut it the least since they need every tool possible to deal with combo.

Tutor + Hate bear isn't that slow - you can T2 it if you just open with Tutor + 2 lands.

I've been liking Leyline of Sanctity in theory if you really have to hate on combo. It's purpose isn't to completely shut them out, but again like any other hate piece in your deck, it's to buy you time to get another hate piece out / kill them. I also may be too enamored of it after I learned that it completely shuts off Intuition...

la loutre
10-20-2011, 01:15 AM
ET+bear.

when you are on the play the best is opening tutor.
you:
turn 1: land go
opp turn 1: discard, you resp by playing the tutor
turn 2 you: bear.

of course it's not GG anymore.

when you are on the draw this is really to slow, discard turn 1= you'r out, no discard but kill turn 2: you'r dead

that's why I'm thinking, on G2 you can have a little good MU
G3 this is still rape.deck

Esper3k
10-20-2011, 01:24 AM
It's certainly not a favorable matchup, but G3 isn't always as bad as you make it sound like (depending on how much hate you have, of course).

First of all, most discard you see combo using (such as in Storm combo) is Duress, which can't get a bear if you just open with one. Second, they're not always going to god hand T1 Discard / T2 kill you.

Of course you won't always have a hate bear / tutor in your opener either.

This is why I like Leyline + Bears though. If you open with Leyline, you get so much more breathing room (it protects you in the situation you described, for example).

Koby
10-20-2011, 01:45 AM
Even if they do Turn 1 discard, turn 2 go nuts - it's just that, the NUTS. Can't win them all, and this deck isn't designed to be able to stop such games. I run Silence as added measure against combo, which if nothing else, buys a turn when we're on the draw. Usually it's too slow even then, but it helps a ton against slower combo decks that don't run discard like Elves and High Tide.

Asthereal
10-20-2011, 10:50 AM
If Storm Combo starts, you normally lose.
Shit happens. Let's just hope they draw badly game 3.

Esper3k
10-20-2011, 11:46 AM
Yeah pretty much. This deck doesn't normally run black or blue, so you can't really expect to have that much game against combo.

Morte
10-23-2011, 11:48 AM
GP Amsterdam is going to finish and we have more coverage from Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/welcome#9).

One of the decks undefeated day 1 is a straight Maverick:

(Daniel Smits Bertelsen’s list)

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard
4 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Path to Exile
1 Serenity
1 Stony Silence
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon


The most evident tweaking is the absence of Stoneforge Mystic. Also just two equipments, two Jitte, one more in the sideboard.
From the 1of side, no Witness, no Terravore and no Thrun.

In this way, Bertelsen is able to play a package of 3 Aven Mindcensor, 3 Qasali Pridemage AND 3 Mirran Crusader, with double Scavenging Ooze too. Very interesting.

In the non-creature ranks, we have Sylvan Library and Elspeth, Knight-Errant as 1ofs.

In the manabase, Bertelsen switches to 1 Forest and 2 Plains, in order to sustain WW requirements of Elspeth and Crusader.

Sideboard is very focused too, with a full package of 4 Choke, 2 Path to Exile and a tutor toolbox of 1ofs.

The list looks robust. Cutting Stoneforge Mystic seems a blasphemy, but Bertelsen did a very coherent work and the choice of creature power in place of card advantage makes sense. I think these approach deserves some testing.


Edit – Top 8 are out!

There’s a very interesting Maverick… Red splashed for Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire!!

(Fabian Gorzgen’s list):

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Tormod's Crypt


Out all standard 1ofs but Gaddock Teeg. Just 1 Qasali Pridemage and 2 Stoneforge Mystic with 1 Sword of Feast and Famine and 1 Umezawa's Jitte as equipments. In: 3 Grove of the Burnwillows + 4 Punishing Fire, 1 Tarmogoyf and 1 Life from the Loam maindeck – makes sense with the Burnwillows strategy and reduces the gap of only 2 Wasteland. Again, double Scavenging Ooze.

In the board, interesting presence of Nevermore, Oblivion Ring and Sylvan Safekeeper.

This list weakens the manabase less than one could expect: red is used for Punishing Fire only, and Gorzgen is so sure of his manabase to maindeck 1 Maze of Ith, 1 Tower of the Magistrate and 1 Bojuka Bog at the same time! A bit greedy? Maybe, but this is another explanation for the maindeck Life from the Loam.

Oh well. We expected some innovation from the GP and it seems we’ve got something to talk for a while!

I think Gorzgen list has the merit to maintain all classical strengths of Maverick plus adding a very interesting card advantage engine. I often felt a bit lacking of removals, maybe in front of a Dark Confidant or Vendilion Clique. Sometimes, after a board sweep I missed some direct damage to kill that Jace or Liliana. Grove of the Burnwillows in the deck packing the best land tutor engine, Knight of the Reliquary, is a good catch for sure, and don't forget the nice interaction between Punishing Fire and Swords to Plowshares. Also, notice how Punishing Fire is much robust than the most common reason to splash red, Grim Lavamancer: more mana intensive, sure, but almost inevitable, in comparison.

Maëlig
10-23-2011, 06:08 PM
I finished 68th in Amsterdam with a pretty standard list (except maybe for the 2nd ooze and MD bojuka, since I was expecting a lot of reanimator and snapcaster mage).



Oh well. We expected some innovation from the GP and it seems we’ve got something to talk for a while!
Yeah the red splash is definitely intriguing, and seems to have payed off for its pilot. Interestingly, there was another such list that made top32 (Sami Valkamaa) :

1 Arid Mesa
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Null Rod
1 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Purify the Grave
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Notice REB in the SB, which is something I quite like. Problem with the punishing fire tech is that it takes splash GY hate. Looks like everyone is playing surgical extraction at the moment.

dsck
10-23-2011, 06:59 PM
Sami Valkamaa finished 9th without byes so his tiebreakers werent enough.

lordofthepit
10-23-2011, 08:28 PM
I know there have been red-splashed Maverick builds piloted in the past, because I asked about it in this thread a month ago. I absolutely love Punishing Fires, and it reinforces Maverick's standing as a creature deck that can still play the control role. More importantly, I think the red splash is really important to shore up some of those combo matchups. However, none of them took the deck as far, and Fabian made room for the sweet Life from the Loam tech.

Props to everyone at GP Amsterdam!

bakofried
10-23-2011, 08:29 PM
I am confused as to how the R-splash helps the combo MU. Enlighten me?

Koby
10-23-2011, 08:33 PM
I am confused as to how the R-splash helps the combo MU. Enlighten me?

I am wondering this too, for I've considered doing the Taiga+REB in the sideboard plan. It only really helps the slower combo deck matchups, and Merfolk (which this deck doesn't need help with). As such, adding REB doesn't help you beat ANT and very likely not helping you beat Reanimator. For this reason, I prefer Silence (on color, and a stronger effect) against such matchups.

lordofthepit
10-23-2011, 08:53 PM
I am confused as to how the R-splash helps the combo MU. Enlighten me?

It gives you a chance against Hive Mind and High Tide. It's another option for Jin Gitaxias or any creature put off Show and Tell, although Maverick has a decent Reanimator matchup.

It's not the best against the likes of Tendrils combo. The best thing Maverick can do there (aside from holding Chants, which are quite narrow) is play Enlightened Tutor with hatebears. Enlightened Tutor is especially convenient since Tendrils combo attacks your hand, but does not play counterspells; on the other hand, the blue-based combo decks do run counterspells which make an Enlightened Tutor board suboptimal in my opinion.

Esper3k
10-23-2011, 09:24 PM
Yeah I don't see red helping the combo matchups too much.

I tried out a black splash (for 4x Thoughtseize and Bob and to justify a maindeck Bojuka Bog) this weekend at our local Legacy tournament and just wasn't enamored of it due to consistency issues, which was always one thing I loved about the GW builds.

bakofried
10-23-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm digging the Mirran Crusader list, however. Has quite a bit of fat to it.

Morte
10-24-2011, 12:16 PM
After some testing I like the Punishing Fire tweak.

A list like Görzgen’s is aimed to improve control and aggro-control matchups, while keeping the aggro supremacy. I tested BUG Deedstill and here recurring Punishing Fire and, long term, Wastelands via Life from the Loam really shines, improving a typically bad matchup. UW Blade Control, Team America and Canadian Threshold also seem very good.

Too bad there isn’t a report of Görzgen-Sommen Quartefinal, it would have been interesting. Sommen won 2-1, but just looking at the lists I’d say Görzgen’s Punishing Maverick was quite favoured against Sommen’s Bant.

About combo MU I don’t see any change respect to standard GW lists. The main effect of Görzgen’s approach is in the mid and late game, and here CA is a good improvement against some bad or even matchup.

Julian23
10-24-2011, 04:41 PM
I've caught Game1 and 2 of Görzgen's Quarterfinal on camera. In case there's interest, I will upload it to my YouTube account.

maurobad2k4
10-24-2011, 04:59 PM
I've caught Game1 and 2 of Görzgen's Quarterfinal on camera. In case there's interest, I will upload it to my YouTube account.

Ow, that'd be great ! :)

bakofried
10-24-2011, 05:01 PM
Please do. Could you point me to your Youtube Channel?

Morte
10-24-2011, 05:23 PM
Please do. Could you point me to your Youtube Channel?

+1

Thank you Julian!

Qweerios
10-24-2011, 06:55 PM
I have been beating combo(ANT, TES, Belcher) consistently over the past few months with 4 GSZ, 1 Teeg, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Vindicate, 4 Wasteland, and 1 Bog in my maindeck. I also use 2 Enlightened Tutors, 1 Canonist, 1 Stony Silence, and 1 Engineered Plague in my sideboard. Having two pieces of hate stick + disruption is a pretty hard lock for combo to overcome especially if you leave a KotR untapped for Bog or mana open for Ooze when expecting Ill-Gotten Gains. Vindicate and Wasteland is very crippling for combo decks in general when you can use them one after the other, it usually buys me enough time (along with TS) to fetch and set up a piece of hate.

Esper3k
10-24-2011, 11:12 PM
Do you all like Stony Silence over Null Rod simply because it's an enchantment vs artifact and thus less likely to see dedicated hate for?

_erbs_
10-24-2011, 11:40 PM
Hello fellow mav users,
The Life from the loam concept i think was discussed earlier in this thread if not maybe it was offline on MWS. Anyways it was an SB plan which is designed to crush control as mav was really struggling with BuG deed type decks before, now with 4 types of decks (Goblins, UGr Thresh, Snapcaster Decks, Combo = becoming more) on the rise atleast on my area playing mav is going to be a challenge

@punishing mav list
feels like bigzoo somewhat without wild nactls the manabase is not as stable as before but non the less its okay. it really improves your mid to late game just like the old mav list which runs walkers... but i think punishing fire is much more versatile over the walker builds.

@no stoneforge list
its solid eventhough it doesn't run stoneforge mystic, but im still not sold on the aven mindcensor hahaha..., i really don't know why i've tested 3-4-2 aven and really didn't like its result. again back to the topic of too late the hero.., aven is good early on abit crappy later on.

Thinking out of the blue here.. some tweaks that could be make on mav
*nat order build
*shroud / hexproof => actually ive tested this already it was somewhat okay but i stopped testing as i was worried about the mana base as it was less consistent due to the basic land count becoming 2 instead of my traditional 4.
*somewhat a bant approach
*a combo finisher like painter stone
*a more aggressive gw list of sorts.. maybe that runs berserk or something.

@stony silence vs null rod
i prefer silence or null rod as it is harder to kill

crow_mw
10-25-2011, 04:55 AM
I've caught Game1 and 2 of Görzgen's Quarterfinal on camera. In case there's interest, I will upload it to my YouTube account.

I would be interested in that as well.

Esper3k
10-25-2011, 09:12 AM
Punishing Fire + Grove is pretty awesome in a deck that runs Hierarchs and Knights. I played it in a Big Zoo list at GP Providence this year to a T64 finish.

Here's the pros/cons I found with it:

Pros
-Makes your aggro matchup much better. If they don't immediately overrun you, you're eventually going to grind them out with it.
-Makes your control matchups much better. PFires is really difficult to remove, even with Extirpate (since you can still use the Grove to get back PFires in response to Extirpate if your opponent isn't careful). It's also hilarious against Planeswalkers. I think it's even better now than it was back then (at GP Providence, there was still some CB/Top running around - pretty much none of that nowadays).
-Great in the mirror. I played against a Green & Taxes deck and it was just an absolute house against things like Mother of Runes.
-It was great against MM, especially against SFM. People would T2 a SFM, fetch a Batterskull with a MM in their hand and surprise... Punishing Fires!

Cons
-Makes your combo matchup much worse. This is probably less relevant in a Maverik shell than in a Big Zoo shell. In Zoo, you at least had a chance to aggro out and maybe get lucky with a silly aggro + burn hand against combo. In a deck like Big Zoo / Maverik, you're slowing down even more so you pretty much have no chance G1 against combo.
-Your manabase obviously becomes weaker and more susceptible to Wasteland. Also, if you're going to add in utility lands like Dryad Arbor, Maze of Ith, Karakas, your manabase starts to look really really weird.

Koby
10-25-2011, 02:19 PM
I have been some lists run Edric, Spymaster of Trest. What are thoughts on this plan in Maverick with the light blue splash? To me, it seems at tension with Exalted+Equipment strategy, but it does make every attackers into a mini-SoFI enabler. It does provide access to Spell Pierce from the sideboard.

Maëlig
10-25-2011, 03:46 PM
Edric is win-more. If you're connecting with 2+ creatures, you're already on your way to victory. I could see it work in a shell adapted to it with more creatures with evasion, but that deck wouldn't have much in common with maverick anymore.

Koby
10-25-2011, 04:38 PM
Edric is win-more. If you're connecting with 2+ creatures, you're already on your way to victory. I could see it work in a shell adapted to it with more creatures with evasion, but that deck wouldn't have much in common with maverick anymore.

That was my thought also. I've ran Cold-eyed Selkie in the past when I was expecting blue decks (oh hai Islands!) and it definitely hits harder with equipment/exalted. However, it's a huge Lightning Bolt-rod. I might try it again since I've put Mother of Runes back into the deck.

_erbs_
10-25-2011, 10:41 PM
I have been some lists run Edric, Spymaster of Trest. What are thoughts on this plan in Maverick with the light blue splash? To me, it seems at tension with Exalted+Equipment strategy, but it does make every attackers into a mini-SoFI enabler. It does provide access to Spell Pierce from the sideboard.

Previously i ran a light blue splash for geist saint traft, edric seems good but being as a 1 off in the deck it would feel like its a win more card like the previous poster said, maybe in a different shell edric will be good. Think of it this way its like a bob, when it hits play it will be a removal magnet so running 3 feels to be the right number but your manabase will suffer, maybe in a bant shell edric will be nice.

TossUsToLions
10-25-2011, 10:48 PM
That was my thought also. I've ran Cold-eyed Selkie in the past when I was expecting blue decks (oh hai Islands!) and it definitely hits harder with equipment/exalted. However, it's a huge Lightning Bolt-rod. I might try it again since I've put Mother of Runes back into the deck.

The problem I found when I ran Cold-Eyed Selkie was that when I GSZ'ed for three, I would just go for KotR. I never really wanted Selkie instead of it. KotR gives you pseudo-CA, and isn't a 1/1 for three. I would like to hear people's experiences with Edric too, and when he is searched for over other 3-drop critters like KotR, Terravaurus Rex, and E.Wit.

A wee bit off topic, but does anyone know where the name "Maverick" came from? It's been bothering me for while.

John Cox
10-25-2011, 11:43 PM
The author of the deck went by maverick on these forums.

Qweerios
10-26-2011, 01:20 AM
I don't think Edric can compete with Eternal Witness as far as "GSZ @3 for CA" goes. Witness is such a good GSZ target, especially against dedicated control decks. I wish I had space for Witness again. Returning Wasteland, StP, Vindicate, or Thoughtseize (vs SFM) were such good plays.

In other news, I took down combo (tendrils, doomsday, burning wish, silence, etc...) tonight 2-0 at weeklies. The only match I lost was against Pattern/NO Combo 0-2. I didn't see any GSZ for Ooze or Teeg during those matches but I still managed to Bog the combo and land a Metamorph on Prog, I ran out of steam for the second Prog. What is the best way to beat this deck?

Koby
10-26-2011, 01:28 AM
What is the best way to beat this deck?

Dodge bullets, draw 3-4x Wasteland, or get lucky. Only way I beat that deck was option 2 - literally 3 topdecked wastes in a row.

Machahiko
10-26-2011, 02:28 AM
I like Edric in my build. The best thing about him is that if you have a creature already on board and ready to attack, you can just get Edric and attack with your creature in order to start getting card advantage.

Edric won quite a few games for me in the last tournament where I played (and top8'd, only to play against another maverick and lose very closely...) but I do have something to nitpick. It's nothing bad about Edric himself, it's bad by me. I won a few games by Edric when he allowed me to draw so many cards, so I started to fetch him off of GSZ very quickly. Like really quick. That was a mistake on my part. When I could have just gone for KotR I went for Edric instead. Edric gives all my creatures "must block or kill edric" -status, if Edric is not killed and enemy lets you attack through the air or anything, you will win sooner or later due to card advantage.

Anyways, if the state of the game has gone into a KotR / Mom / more -war and you can manage to hit your opponent each turn by the help of mom/flier you should want to look for Edric. He should pull you enough cards to come up with superior army.

But then, on the other hand. Why GSZ for Edric when you could search Terravore and just start bashing faces in... who knows. I have to say that it's hard to say when to GSZ for him and when not to, but I've enjoyed playing him a lot.


Qweerios,

Edric vs. Eternal Witness as a form of card advantage, I would say that Edric is better, but Witness is better in some situations while Edric is better in some.

Wouldn't Aven Mindcensor be pretty good against Pattern/NO Combo also? Aven Mindcensor + some other disruption + Mother of Runes should be really annoying for them to fight or am I missing something here?

_erbs_
10-26-2011, 02:52 AM
I like Edric in my build. The best thing about him is that if you have a creature already on board and ready to attack, you can just get Edric and attack with your creature in order to start getting card advantage.

Edric won quite a few games for me in the last tournament where I played (and top8'd, only to play against another maverick and lose very closely...) but I do have something to nitpick. It's nothing bad about Edric himself, it's bad by me. I won a few games by Edric when he allowed me to draw so many cards, so I started to fetch him off of GSZ very quickly. Like really quick. That was a mistake on my part. When I could have just gone for KotR I went for Edric instead. Edric gives all my creatures "must block or kill edric" -status, if Edric is not killed and enemy lets you attack through the air or anything, you will win sooner or later due to card advantage.

Anyways, if the state of the game has gone into a KotR / Mom / more -war and you can manage to hit your opponent each turn by the help of mom/flier you should want to look for Edric. He should pull you enough cards to come up with superior army.

But then, on the other hand. Why GSZ for Edric when you could search Terravore and just start bashing faces in... who knows. I have to say that it's hard to say when to GSZ for him and when not to, but I've enjoyed playing him a lot.

Its true that Edric gives you "i must block every creature my opponent has" but mav seldom swarms out its opponents and i think you must have some kind of evasion in order to draw constantly. Right now i wanted to test him out as to solve the problem of snapcaster decks and tempo decks on rise, i feel stoneforge route is too much tempo loss against tempo decks stifling stf or bolting the creature going to carry the equipment.

Fatal
10-26-2011, 06:23 AM
Here is a report from GP Amsterdam.

I made sad 2-4 record, but time to think about the list and make changes to meta.

the list was:


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Tropical Island
1 Terravore
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Batterskull
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mother of Runes

//SB
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wing Shards
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Submerge
1 Choke
3 Mindbreak Trap


Round 4 (had 3 byes) 43 Lands

Game 1 Opponent had very good hand along with moxes, loam, and then with exploration, I haven't good good hand against them (only nonbasics lands - savannah/karakas) then tabernacle land on table, I scoop fast and went to game 2 - which was important - time is a key to play game 3.

Side in: Tormod's crypt, Explosives, Bojuka Bog, 2 life from the loam, Surgical Extraction, E.tutor, Choke (he was playing with G/u/x list)

Side out: 4 StP (thinking a little on it, but Bob wasn't a problem, key is tempo them out), Maze of Ith, Gaddock Teeg (didnt saw scapeshift game 1, but seen a Ghost Quarter so its the control list of lands), Umezawa's Jitte, 1 SFM.

Game 2 Was fast Wasting his only color mana, then Ooze to clean the GY, locking with loam + censors.

Game 3 Was similar but he tried to using Explosives to blow up tormod's crypt, then Ooze again lock the game with loam.


Round 5 - BUG Control similar to Team America with Snapcasters

The match was really tide, dont remember it all, but mostly it was card vs card game, then game state to topdeck mode, once I was killed by flood - 4 lands in row.. he topdeck 3 goyfs..

SB in: Choke, phyrexian metamorph, Submerge, Bojuka Bog, 2 life from the loam
SB out: 1 Mom (bacuse he most using Deeds), Gaddock, Rafiq, Qasali Pridemage, Terravore, Aven Mindcensor.

I won game 2 with tempo him out, just a lot of guys with equipments had nice hand with mom backup.

Game 3 - Was similar to game 1, I made 2 mistakes, first one was not playing Bojuka bog to remove 4 cards in gy and passing the turn, I played KotR instead he topdeck ghastly demise and had enough cards in gy to kill KotR, second mistake was to fetching Eternal Witness instead of next KotR, he topdeck Hymn to Tourach and discard bringed back KotR. Just really good topdecks in opponent side.

Round 6 - U/g/r tempo canadian with Delver of Secrets

This game was embrassing :|, I had mana screw bacuase of drawing Maze of Ith from the top after keeping decent hand. Didn't saw any fattie, he just roll over me and stifling maze 3 times in row, so he can bolt me. But opponent drawing 4 wastelands and 4 stifles was really embrassing. My starting hand was: forest, savannah, 2 hierarchs, wasteland, GSZ, stp - very good hand I started also.
So forest hierarch go, he played tropical and pass, I tired to wasteland his tropical (stifle no. 1), then played second hierarch and attack for 2. He played volcanic and kill both hierarchs with fire//ice - bad news. Untap drawing some equipment, then play savannah and fetch dryad from GSZ to avoid daze, he untap, played bolt, mangoose, and waste savannah. I didn't draw more lands to the end only maze. He played 3 more wastelands and put goyf to attack along with mangoose, then he stifle 3 times in row, maze and kill me. Died with stp in hand - quite afwul luck.

Side in: Choke, 2 life from the loam, explosives, Submerge, Wing shards
Side out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, Gaddock Teeg, Rafiq, Qasali Pridemage,1 Mother of runes.

Similar to game one, didnt saw any choke/loam and removal he punch me with goyf, burning all my creatures, he draw 3 submerges, and 2 dismembers for all fatties hands down.


Where are all my nuts ? And also where are morfolks ?

Round 7 - ANT - yea... :/

Game 1 - He mull to 5 that's a good news, bad I also mull to 5 not seeing any colored lands, only wastelands, he won the roll so he starting by.. saying GO ! without a land drop - Belcher alert ! I had a slow hand without any GSZ or hierarch, just play a fetch and pass, he topdeck a land from the top, polluted delta, playing it and pass - ok so no belcher but probably other combo, I draw Eternal Witness from top which wasn't to helpful in this game state, just fetching lands playing SFM with batterskull (fetching tropical to mark a counter in hand). He topdeck next land.. playing island, fetching swamp from polluted delta - now I know it was ANT.. he played duress took down equip, played petal, 2 darks and Ad N from hand - quite a nice goldfish from 5. I died this turn.

Side in: 3 Traps, 1 Eternsworn canonist, E.Tutor, Surgical Extraction, bojuka bog, Tormod's Crypt, Choke - 9 cards, I was little pissed off so didn't shuffle all sb like mostly I do just, took the cards from sb so my opponent knew how many cards I'm bringing - he was little shocked (we talked about - he was really friendly probably from Holland sorry don't remember names)

Game 2 - Opponent again mull to 5 i keep quite slow hand, but with a trap, Mom, and Aven, but only 2 lands. I started with a plains, mom go, he started with a ponder, then I didnt draw any more lands for 3 turns.. again bad luck, he played duress next turn so trap was out, but still had a hope for aven - draw.. non land in next two turns. Died in turn 4 with Infernal Tutor chain and IGG with pick up Infernal LED and duress.

This mean I'm out of Day 2 - how unlucky.

I decided to play 2 more rounds just to grind PP.

Round 8 - U/R/W Stoneblade

Game 1:
Dude was playing a lot of basics so probably with Magus of the Moon, but clunck mana base isn't best way to win in tricolor deck, he had screw on one mana after I waste his only dual. Fetching for basics to avoid blood moon effect or B2B (didn't saw it to the end). Ending game with Huge KotR attacking with Rafiq backup - total overkill.

SB in: Choke, Phyrexian Metamorph
SB out: Terravore, Rafiq

Game 2: Same as game 1 color screw after playing 3 basics and one wasteland to key color with was blue, then stp grim lavamancer and go for kill.


Round 9 - Solidarity - oh my :/

Game 1:
First thought I'm playing against Spiral Tide, so fetching fast Gaddock Teeg, and tried to connect it with a clock, but after I saw Impuse I knew its solidarity where Gaddock lock up only Turnabout. Clock was too slow round 5 he goes off in my combat avoiding lethal.

Sb in: 3 Mindbreak Trap, Etersworn Canonist, E.Tutor, Choke, Surgical Extraction.
SB out: 4 Stp, Maze of Ith, Umezawa's Jitte, Qasali Pridemage

Game 2: I keep a very good hand GSz, hierarch, 2 traps, 2 lands, end surgical extraction. Fetching from GSZ gaddock with wasn't too good since opponent side out 2 turnabouts, then drawing more GSZ from the top.. most it stops me more than him. Opponent was from GB so we talk all game, He had problems to win con with teeg on table and 2 traps since he goes off in combat when lethal was on table. So he just snap a lot of guys, then brainfreeze me for all, then wish for surgical extraction and exile all traps, after drawing almost all library, he BSZ for 1 and kill - probably unwinable MU.

Thoughts after GP:
Combo MU is still bad, but nothing changes. I was more angry to loses against tempo deck where my win% was very good. after all I think its time to change a lot of things in deck.

First - Card selection drawing 3 lands in row is a game lose. Sylvan Library is needed here for sure.

Second I still thing this deck need more removal, since tempo decks are rising and also in mirrors. thinking about 2 PtE MD to have 6 MD removal.

Aven Mindcensor - this card is very good, really but only in some MU, screwing fetchlands only few times, most of the time opponent will know its comming since deck isn't so unknown as before, Aven is mostly only creature playing on flash (Scryb Also but 1-of isn't too often hardcasting).

SB - probably more Eternsworn Canonists maybe traps to 4. Still testing, life from the loam was a good sb card, but need to be 3 or 0 since mostly time I didn't draw both - wasteland and the loam.

Esper3k
10-26-2011, 09:39 AM
Against Pattern, Teeg is pretty good since he shuts off both NO and Pattern. Just getting a Jitte equipped on a guy and swinging is strong too since most of their dudes are tiny and can be killed off with Jitte counters fairly easily.

Julian23
10-28-2011, 07:02 PM
Hey guys, in case you missed it, I wrote a huge gigantic report about my 88th place finish with this deck at GP Amsterdam. I definitely recommend checking it out!

88th at GP Amsterdam (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22473-88th-at-GP-Amsterdam-A-lesson-in-choosing-your-deck-LOTS-of-content)


Also, VODs of the quarterfinal I taped won't be up until next week since I'm currently not at home.

Koby
10-30-2011, 01:28 AM
Has anyone done serious testing in the mirror matchup?
What are ways to better the odds in the mirror?
Are there certain strategies that help compared to other matchups?

Fatal
10-30-2011, 04:14 AM
I found that red splash with punishing fires are really great vs correct meta.

All NLT, BUG Snapcaster is rising to fight combo players, also as Rukcus metion mirror matches aren't rare now.

Here is the list what resolve punishing:
- Lavamancer - this little dude is very painful kill 70% of our creatures
- Jace
- Dark Confidant
- all mana dorks (hierarch, BoP)
- Mother of Runes
- Scryb Ranger
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Delver of Secrets
- Magus of the Moon - sometimes can be problematic when casted in first turn.

Adding red we have decent SB cards to fight worst MU Hive Mind and Spiral Tide - REB - it can also be additional removal vs Jin, next card to think about on SB is Ancient Grudge which helps in mirror.

here is the list which I'm testing:


3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Batterskull
3 Mother of Runes
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Birds of Paradise

//SB
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ancient Grudge


I also add one MD LftL and 2 Sylvan Library to makes better CQ in late game. I'm only not sure is it right to cutting Aven Mindcensors which was really good but have to make place for 3 cards. Maybe cutting Batterskull and one SFM .. dunno still testing.

Machahiko
10-30-2011, 05:00 AM
I played yesterday the punishing fire version in a tournament yesterday into an embarrassing 0-3 and "off I go to sleep". To effectively use the punishing fires you need grove of the burnwillows, a land that can produce red mana, a land and punishing fire. I liked previously how hard it is actually to interrupt the landbase and how far the deck can go with minimal resources. If I wanted something to get rid of Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant and mana dorks, I'd rather splash red and play cunning sparkmage.

I bet there are better cards at beating these cards, but most importantly I just don't like punishing fire. Maybe I have to test it again some other time, because it's so tempting. Maybe I just had a bad day, don't know.

jayman1515
10-30-2011, 09:14 AM
I brought maverick to a legacy tournament this past FNM. I went 3-1 and made top 4.
The list was:

4 wasteland
3 savannah
2 forest
2 plains
4 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
2 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
3 aven mindcensor
3 stoneforge mystic
3 noble hierarch
1 birds of paradise
2 mirran crusader
4 knight of the reliquary
2 qasali pridemage
3 mother of runes
1 gaddock teeg
1 thrun, the last troll
1 scryb ranger
1 scavenging ooze
4 swords to plowshares
4 green sun’s zenith
2 sylvan library
1 umezawa’s jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
SB
1 gaddock teeg
2 path to exile
2 enlightened tutor
1 choke
1 ethersworn canonist
1 dueling grounds
1 runed halo
1 tormod’s crypt
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 pithing needle
1 thorn of amethyst
1 aura of silence

Round 1 Andrew Cavanaugh with NO BUG 2-1
Game 1: Vendillion clique beats me down to 7 as I can’t find either GSZ or mindcensor. He has double goyf on the ground for blocking. A natural order for progenitus forces me to scoop.

Side in: runed halo, phyrexian metamorph, gaddock teeg, 2x enlightened tutor

Game 2: I land a turn 2 teeg, turn 3 mindcensor, and a turn 4 knight of the reliquary. He scoops shortly after.

Game 3: We each hit early wasteland and creature removal. I’m left with a horizon canopy and birds of paradise against his one bayou. I land a stoneforge mystic and grab a jitte. Next turn equip stoneforge and kill both his dryad arbor and noble hierarch. Turn GSZ for teeg and he scoops.
1-0

Round 2: A.J. Kerrigan withThe Epic Storm 0-2
I’m sure A.J is playing TES since it’s what he always plays and writes about for starcitygames.

Game 1:I lose the die roll and keep a hand with mindcensor. AJ plays land, lotus petal, chome mox, dark ritual and ad nauseum. He flips well and I die.
Side in: gaddock teeg, 2x enlightened tutor, ethersworn canonist, dueling grounds, runed halo, and thron of amethyst

Game 2: I keep a hand with gaddock teeg and thorn of amethyst. I play a savannah and pass. AJ plays a land, dark ritual, dark ritual and ad nauseum. I die shortly after.
1-1

Round 3: Jim Higginbottom with The Epic Storm 2-1
I put Jim on playing a Bug deck since that is what he usually runs but I was wrong. Turns out he was playing TES which I knew he owned but he hasn’t played it in a long time.

Game 1:I won the die roll and kept a hand with mindcensor but no mana dork. I play land into mother of runes. He plays scalding tarn and passes. I follow with a land into a GSZ for noble hierarch. He then plays gemstone mine into dark ritual, rite of flame eventually getting ad nauseum and I die.

Side in same as round 2

Game 2: I land a turn 2 teeg and follow with a turn 3 mother of runes. This forces him to go for grapeshot but when he sees he will be one mana short, he goes for deathmark instead to kill gaddock teeg. I play both noble and pridemage and start swinging for 5 a turn until he dies.

Game 3: He plays land into ponder. I play land and pass. He plays land into duress and in response I E tutor for ethersworn canonist. He takes GSZ and passes. I land ethersworn and win because he counted his echoing truth as the imprint for chome mox but since he used it to bounce ethersworn at EOT he loses.
2-1

Round 4:Joey LaGravenese with Br Gate 2-0
Game 1: Joey gets stuck on one land. I play turn 2 teeg, turn 3 knight, turn 4 knight and he scoops.

Side in: runed halo, 2x enlightened tutor, dueling grounds, 2x path to exile

Game 2: He lands a turn 1 lavamancer. I land turn 1 noble hierarch. He plays a turn 2 isochron scepter imprinting diabolic edict. I follow with a turn 2 runed halo naming diabolic edict (my favorite play of the day). He lands another isochron scepter imprinting terminate but I land a mirran crusader after removing lavamancer with a swords. Soon after he dies to mirran crusader.
3-1

Top 4 Adam Ludwigsen with Snapcaster Bug
Game 1: I land a mother of runes which he kills with ghastly demise. He lands a turn 2 goyf while I land a turn 2 stoneforge with gets killed. I lose my equip to hymm to tourach but manage to land mirran crusader. Crusader and goyf end up just staring at each other because goyf is a 6/7. He keeps removing my other creatures and flashes in a snapcaster mage. He forces my scavengine ooze and I soon die after he jaces my crusader multiple turns.

Side in (never tested against snapcaster decks since no one in my meta was playing them yet, so I had no idea what to side in): gaddock teeg and 2x path to exile

Game 2: Pretty much the same game except I die to a vendillion clique while goyf and crusader stare at each other. I actually boarded out mindcensor here and GSZ for scryb ranger only to have it killed.

Props:
-Gaddock tegg/Ethersworn canonist for doing their jobs
-Mirran Cruader for giving gate and bug decks so much trouble
-Sylvan Library for helping me win when it hit the table (2 seems to be the right #)
-Togit for hosting great legacy tournaments

Slops:
-Aven Mindcensor for failing to stop a single fetch and only helping as teeg backup against NO
-Me for taking out terravore and batterskull which both would have been good against snapcaster

I would like to squeeze both terravore and batterskull back into the deck but not sure what to take out. I’m also thinking of adding a second scavenging ooze and a second scryb ranger.

Fatal
10-30-2011, 01:05 PM
I made top4 with punishing fire splash losing only one single game in round 5 against ANT preside - he kill me with Ad N in turn 0.

Here is the list and short report:


3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Batterskull
3 Mother of Runes
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Birds of Paradise

//sb
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ancient Grudge


Round 1 BUG Tempo with Delvers

Game 1 - easy win with stoneforge mystics, jitte and batterskull.

Don't have notes about siding, but for sure I made mistake taking out Scryb Ranger

Game 2 - 4 wastelands and ghastly demise made the job against me, lost to delver
Game 3 - I took down 3 delvers with one Engineered Explosives.. but time ends.

0-0-1

Round 2 - Zenith Junk with Moms

Game 1 - Batterskull with sword of light and shadow made the job connected with eternal witness and swords to plowshares - I killed all KotRs in his deck ended at 47 life
Game 2 - similar to game 1, opponent had nice draws started with Mom->Confidant, but punishing fire with jitte made the job


Round 3 - Aggro Bant (UGW Tempo with stifles, Zeniths, KotRs Cliques and Jaces)

Game 1 - 4 StP made the job with Punishing, I killed all KotRs with dryad and cliques.
Game 2 - Opponent had screw after killing Dryad, and wastelanding tropical island.

Round 4 - Mirror GW Maverick
Game 1 - and the last one, we played 55 minutes, this match was exhausting, I draw first punishing when round ends, killed Mom on block, I was stabilize table on batterskull, with Sword of Light and Shadow and Ooze backup. STP 2 KotRs and Terravore gives too much time to end the game in normal time, also opponent was tired. After we realize that we can't kill each other we take draw after 3 turns of termination.

Round 5 - ANT
Game 1 - died in turn 0 after dark, dark Ad N, Tendrils from hand.
Game 2 - He died after he takes trap from my hand with duress, I just put clock on table, land hierarch, KotR, KotR.. attacking..
Game 3 - I keep hand with Mom, Gaddock, Ethersworn Canonist, Trap, lands..draws bojuka, Choke, and Crypt opponent can't face such a hate - I sided here 12 cards..

Top4 - we took split on 4 since we saw that I'm gonna playing Maverick mirror without limited time -3 hours match isn't the funniest thing after 5 hours playing.. - everyone agree to take a split - those matches are exhausting..but I think version with punishing has edge over normal builds having more removal to utility creatures.

Sorry for not posting all side boarding strategies but I was after long work so was little lazy..

Morte
10-30-2011, 02:13 PM
I agree with your conclusions about Punishing Mav.

Your list is interesting: it seems you chose to keep all the standard card advantage/quality, hence 4 SFM + 3 equipments, 2 Sylvan Library and one Eternal Witness.

Cutting Thrun and Terravore seems ok in a Punishing list, since control and swarm matchups are inherently improved by Punishing Fire.

However, cutting all Aven Mindcensors and Gaddock Teeg MD seems too much: you’re totally giving up your game 1 against combo and relying on your sideboard for games 2 and 3. But again, in your games 2 and 3 you’ll still be missing 2 or 3 censors, hence 2 or 3 useful piece of hate, and here the hate density is crucial. Generally speaking, against combo standard Maverick is ~30/70% game 1, 60/40 game 2 (on the play) and 50/50 game 3 (on the draw). With your choice I’d say you’re 10/90% game 1, 55/45 game 2 and 45/55 game 3. I don’t think it’s the right way, unless your meta is combo light.

From the manabase point of view, you chose to keep the 4 Wastelands, and added one only fetchable red land. Maybe you’re a bit light of red sources, especially against opposing Wastelands. I think that, if you want to play 3 colors with 22 mana producing lands, the right number of Wastelands is 2 or 3.

This is the list I’m running now:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Red Elemental Blast


I wanted to fit 2 Sylvan Library and one Life from the Loam, which seems very useful for the stability of this configuration. I also wanted a full package of Punishing Fire.

I decided to reduce the SFM + equipments pack. It seems a good choice in Punishing configuration, given that you have another source of CA, and that the role of Batterskull is in some way fulfilled by Punishing Fire too.

I think the list is a good compromise. The manabase seems robust enough too. I’m wondering if, for GWr lists, totally replacing Hierarchs for BoPs could make sense.

Koby
10-30-2011, 05:21 PM
Briefly playing the Punishing Fires list, here are some thoughts. My basic :g::w: list is linked in my signature.

4 Punishing Fire is too much, 3 is fine.
This eats up into slots that would be used for creatures.

Aven Mindcensor is mediocre in the list, compared to the straight :g::w: version.
With more things to do with 3 mana (Fires) this doesn't seem as strong of a play.

Terravore is still a house, and especially against opposing KotR.
It's nice having a big finisher in the mirror matches. If they can't kill a KotR, they certainly can't kill a Terravore. Terravore is almost always bigger than any single KotR on either side.

Eternal Witness is still good in the list, and probably shouldn't go.
The list doesn't have a way to retrieve dead equipment.

Batterskull isn't needed anymore, and can be replaced with SoLS maindeck.
Batterskull was handling the tribal decks. Fires does so better. SoLS still gives relevant protection against opposing Batterskulls and StP.

List I'm/was testing:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Maze of Ith
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Choke


I also don't like that this list is more vulnerable to Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Ooze than previous versions. It really takes out a lot Maverick's punch by relying on Punishing Fires. While its true that against Control this is really good, I think Thrun is overall better against them. When also packing Eternal Witness to recur Thrun after a Wrath of God, this makes it really tough for them. Fires also gets shut out by Counterbalance, which may be starting to rise up again after all the Tempo Thresh is one of the decks to beat.

Morte
10-30-2011, 05:48 PM
Could you explain your points with some argumentation, please? The comment about Mindcensor is particularly obscure.

Your reference list would be of help too. Of course Terravore and Witness are “good”, but since we are making room for other stuff, something has to go. If you cut something else, please say what and why.

What is the correlation between Batterskull and SoLaS? Again, without your reference SFM + equipment package, such a comment is quite meaningless.

EDIT - thanks for the improvement to your post.

Koby
10-30-2011, 06:23 PM
What is the correlation between Batterskull and SoLaS? Again, without your reference SFM + equipment package, such a comment is quite meaningless.

Without needing Batterskull (to manage swarm aggro), the configuration can go back to 2 Sword of X/Y + Jitte. This is the same configuration used by Death & Taxes, as well as this deck prior to New Phyrexia. SoLS has a lot of value in the maindeck right now due to all the Snapcaster Mage decks, but compared to Batterskull is much weaker.

I rate the equipment:
1. Sword of F/I
2. Jitte
3. Batterskull
4. Sword of L/S
5. Sword of F/F

We can only realistically run 3-4 equipment, and I prefer to run 3. I am aware some Europeans like to run 4, but I feel as though that is too many for the maindeck and for a broad metagame. It might make sense in metagames where longer games are more frequent. Against combo they are dead weight and that's too many cards that do nothing in such a matchup. That is my metagame.

With Punishing Fires being able to control swarms, SoLS is able to punch through with a relevant effect. I think that SoLS is primarily used for color protection more than its triggered abilities. SoFI on the other hand, is more useful for its triggers.

Morte
10-30-2011, 06:49 PM
4 Punishing Fire is too much, 3 is fine.
This eats up into slots that would be used for creatures.

Ok, so why are you still playing 4 in your list?


Aven Mindcensor is mediocre in the list, compared to the straight :g::w: version.
With more things to do with 3 mana (Fires) this doesn't seem as strong of a play.

Again, if it's so mediocre why are you still playing it as a 2of? When evaluating the value of a card, you should consider the function that the card fulfills. The function fulfilled in the GW list is the same function fulfilled in the Punishing list: a unique function, and one of the few maindeck slots against combo, so I'd say nothing changes about Mindcensor between GW and Punishing list.
Also, the cost argument is debatable: every deck plays multiple cards with the same CC, and Punishing Fire costs 2, not 3, you can activate Grove of the Burnwillows only when you effectively need it. If you really have curve issue, fit Punishing Fire in the 2CC cathegory at least.


I also don't like that this list is more vulnerable to Extirpate/Surgical Extraction/Ooze than previous versions.

If they'd play Extirpate or Surgical Extraction against me I'd be happy: card advantage for free is always welcome. This is not Reanimator nor Dredge, and recurring Fire is not vital for us. BTW, if you play properly you can often play around Extraction or Ooze.


It really takes out a lot Maverick's punch by relying on Punishing Fires. While its true that against Control this is really good, I think Thrun is overall better against them. When also packing Eternal Witness to recur Thrun after a Wrath of God, this makes it really tough for them.

I'm not so sure. Usually you play Thrun as a 1of and he's uncounterable only if you play him from your hand. If you GSZ for 5, it's quite obvious that it's the awaited must-counter for the control player. The force of Punishing Fire is exactly its recursion, countering it is useless, it'll be back again, and again, and again.


Fires also gets shut out by Counterbalance, which may be starting to rise up again after all the Tempo Thresh is one of the decks to beat.

We'll see, at the moment this is just speculation, not a point. And in that case Punishing or not Punishing won't be the difference, the deck is always all made by cards with CC 1, 2 or 3.


I rate the equipment:
1. Sword of F/I
2. Jitte
3. Batterskull
4. Sword of L/S
5. Sword of F/F
(...)

I agree and, like you did in your Punishing list, I think that 2 SFM + Jitte + 1 sword is the right configuration for Punishing Mav.

Koby
10-30-2011, 07:06 PM
The list posted is the one I'm testing (as in, seein what works and what doesn't). These are initial thoughts and I'm likely going to change it as I test more.

Morte
10-30-2011, 07:20 PM
Ok. I think it’s always better to verify the thoughts risen from testing with an actual list: an idea can be great in a vacuum, but less practicable in the economy of a real deck. It’s like the lineup of a sport team: you want all the champions, in a vacuum, but then you have to build a team, balanced, versatile and coherent.

Please share your updated list with your thoughts concretized, when you’ll be ready.

lordofthepit
10-30-2011, 08:08 PM
I rate the equipment:
1. Sword of F/I
2. Jitte
3. Batterskull
4. Sword of L/S
5. Sword of F/F

In a Punishing Fire list, I rate Sword of F/F above all the other equipment.

1) Punishing Fires absolutely owns Planeswalkers, the most problematic of which are Jace and Elspeth, so pro-blue and pro-white aren't that useful.
2) Punishing Fires destroys Goblins, Merfolk, and other small creatures, so Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte aren't as necessary.
3) Untapping all of your lands is very synergistic with Punishing Fires recursion; moreover, the only creatures you might have problem with are big green dudes, so protection from green is very useful.
4) Opponents will occasionally bring in gravehate to deal with Knight of the Reliquary and Punishing Fires; therefore, Sword of Light and Shadow suffers to a minimal extent from splash hate.

iScare
10-30-2011, 08:14 PM
hi, i am new to Maverick. Can someone let me know what is scryb ranger is mainly used for in this deck?

Thanks!

Koby
10-30-2011, 08:18 PM
hi, i am new to Maverick. Can someone let me know what is scryb ranger is mainly used for in this deck?

Thanks!

Scryb Ranger provides three key elements:
1. Re-use for creatures that have a tap ability (Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, etc)
2. Works with Dryad Arbor to produce a "fog" effect against non-trampling ground guys
3. Pro-blue flyer against Jace TMS, Vendilion Clique, and Merfolk.

Other uses
4. Helps provide extra mana when you don't have any lands to play for the turn.
5. Protects your Savannahs and Dryad Arbor from Wasteland.

sir
10-30-2011, 10:39 PM
I can understand how some people are dropping or boarding Batterskull, because in this environment Stoneforge Mystic dies really fast and if you tutor for it hoping to Stoneforge it in, you're stuck with something you can't cast for a while. His death if you grab Batterskull before summoning sickness wears off is a very likely scenario nowadays, with all the Threshold direct damage running around.

Whereas, grabbing Jitte people aren't really going to go specifically out of their way to kill Stoneforge over other things, counterspell avoidance aside.

Of course it's (batterskull has) won more games for me than you would think just hardcasting the thing late game and equipping it to something, heh.

Or drawing it with an active Stoneforge on the board. That can be useful, or at least a surprising topdeck.

I'm loath to fiddle with the tried-and-true 3 equipment/3-4 Stoneforge but I do like the idea of boarding Batterskull to free up a slot.

I even like the one guy's list at GP Amsterdam (or was it Baltimore?) with just 3 (2?) Jittes and no Mystics. It's interesting, anyway, even if I wouldn't do it -- Stoneforge draws fire for a reason. It's a lovely turn 2 threat, let's not forget, heh.

If you cut Stoneforge (a pretty maverick move), better put strong creatures where it was. We need our 26+ threats, lol.

p.s. I love Scryb Ranger. Really broadly magnificent in play. I think if you run it you'll see what we mean pretty soon. I was skeptical for the first five seconds after playing it.

One is wonderful as a GSZ target. Two is even nicer (since you can surprise them with flash -- it's a testament to how great it is that it's still great if you don't plan to ever flash it in) and I like the lists that do that.

iScare
10-31-2011, 12:39 AM
Scryb Ranger provides three key elements:
1. Re-use for creatures that have a tap ability (Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, etc)
2. Works with Dryad Arbor to produce a "fog" effect against non-trampling ground guys
3. Pro-blue flyer against Jace TMS, Vendilion Clique, and Merfolk.

Other uses
4. Helps provide extra mana when you don't have any lands to play for the turn.
5. Protects your Savannahs and Dryad Arbor from Wasteland.

Thanks!! I can already foresee how much i would be loving this guy against creatures like Batterskull to prevent lifelink effect.

Zand
10-31-2011, 01:35 AM
I saw many pages back that someone had been experimenting with Armageddon in the Maverick archetype, I was wondering if that was something other people had tried or even thought was a good idea? Something like add in a few Mox Diamond, 2-3 Armageddon/Ravages (only if you're pimp though ^_^) and an extra Terravore. Plus you could give the deck a cool name like Mavageddon.

Years ago I played around with a Terraggeddon deck and I found in general I just sort of won when Armageddon was successfully cast but I dunno how good it would be in today's meta.

Edit: I guess I should suggest things to cut from the normal build, which is where things get tricky... Running no more than 3 Mums and Stoneforges and probably cutting either a Sword or Batterskull. I've found Batterskull pretty lackluster recently so I'd pick that

iScare
10-31-2011, 03:24 AM
Most maverick decks run 4x Knight of the reliquary, Do you think it may be a good idea to cut 1 KoTR for 1 Terravore?

Fatal
10-31-2011, 03:25 AM
I wouldn't cut Batterskull from the lists, here are arguments:

1. Its only fat grave imdependent creature in this deck along with goyf
2. It provide CA even if Mystic dies from removal you still have and can just hardcasting - 2-for-1
3. All other equipments need a body this don't
4. In late game it can be bounced so it provide more CA than more ppl think
5. Lifelink and vengilance gives a lot of life, has good synergy with KotRs - its not only vs aggro, also middlerange.

For guys who aren't familiar on sb strategies, with Bojuka and Punishing you can take down any KotRs on table.

Step one Punishing on opp KotR
Step two Fetch Bojuka (or play it from your hand -> even better).

Next thing in mirror MU Punishing shine thanks to all ulitity creatures (hierarch/Bop/scryb/etc) are x/1 or x/2 (stoneforge/pridemage). It also helps a lot in Bant MU.

Next thing -> Perish can be brutal, cutting Stoneforge we changing creatures for more green one so it will be more dangerous - that's wrong direction. With SoLs can recur all of them.

Now a word about Snapcaster Mage - belive me or not, but it's not so good as many ppl thought -> it's just slow, key vs all those deck is attacking manabase and brutal aggro.

At the end, combo MU, since NLT, Snapcaster controls (many varations) and also CB is backing I decided to cut all anti-combo slots from MD since we met combo not too often, and even with them most time first game is lose. For example on last tournament I faced ANT in round 5. I died on turn 0 in first game - where Aven helps ? No where, there was only one MU where it could be good - Mirror. NO decks are also not too often faced by me so I cut them entirely to have better cards MD vs other MU. VS Combo i focused on SB where I put 12 cards (straight dedicated about 7 - 3 traps, 2 canonists, Gaddock, adding Crypt, Surgical, E.Tutor, Bojuka, 2 Chokes to shut down more routes).

sir
10-31-2011, 05:26 AM
Thanks, good thoughts. I tend to agree with your points actually, and as I said I don't think I'm in the business of cutting Batterskull either. (and definitely not stoneforge)

Still, devil's advocate a little.

In terms of maximizing advantage, sure it's card advantage to put it in your hand but if you cast Stoneforge turn two, fetch it and then Stoneforge gets smoked then you almost certainly wish you grabbed jitte (or a sword) IMO.

I have hardcasted and re-equipped Batterskull many, many times but interestingly I've never found an easy occasion for bouncing it back to hand. One can hardly pay for Thrun. (I run 23 lands (including Ith and Arbor) and the full complement of mana dudes and I think that it's still the case that Maverick is a very mana-hungry deck, and vulnerable to disruption or bad plays.) It's not particularly economical in the mid-game to think of bouncing the Skull, unless your Stoneforge liveth. Nevertheless, it's also the case being -able- to do it causes difficulty for the opponent since they have to play around the ability.

Jitte can life-gain you as much, and also completely control the board (or swing for the win equipped to a flier like Mindcensor or Ranger or Birds of Paradise if you pack one.)

Your point about green hate like Perish (or very often in my opinion, just some sort of protection green) (and Batterskull being black and Stoneforge being white) is a very good one. I hadn't thought of this and I've definitely experienced the Germ token's color being a great help in getting over.

Then again, when I mention threats to replace it, I definitely mean Mirran Crusader, the champion of all matches vs. aggro. At least 2 and that one deck that cut Stoneforge and Batterskull (just had 2 jittes) was a 3 Crusader deck. (Incidentally if you can expect for your double-striking Crusader to see combat then a choice of fetching Jitte (instead of Batterskull) is probably vastly improved. And you don't need to choose Sword of Feast and Famine as your sword either, haha.)

So my line of question is not as to Batterskull being good or not ... it just comes down to is that one slot worth it? (And if you're dropping Batterskull, then maybe you can just run Jitte, which is I guess how this line of reasoning came about.) I mean, if I cut Batterskull then I don't have to choose either 2 Qasali Pridemages or 2 Aven Mindcensors, neither of which number is the optimal 3 each. (actually, I like 2 mindcensors, but yeah) Or hey, you could put in a second Scavenging Ooze (excellent thinking IMO) or a second Scryb Ranger or a single Eternal Witness ... we're always pressed for space. :P

More clearly, here's I think the matter: Is Batterskull a worthy maindeck include if you expect to rarely if ever use an early Stoneforge to fetch it? And in the late game, would you rather topdeck something else? How about another piece of game-changing equipment, which if you could hardcast Batterskull you have the mana to equip and swing with as soon as you draw? What about, um ... Elspeth Knight-Errant? Seriously.

For me the answer is still to include it, because it always did me right in the past and working out Stoneforge is too much of a leap for me. But I am keeping a close eye on the metagame.

Sorry this post is so disorganized, everyone, I realize that. Just sleep deprived and in a hurry.

The list I've been talking about, incidentally: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7048&iddeck=51133 (suffered no losses at Amsterdam, FWIW, if I'm understanding that right)

Thanks for the work on Punishing Fire too!


p.s. What is with the single Crucible of Worlds maindeck with the only tutor for it in SB, in this Punishing Maverick list (Trial Winner Amsterdam):? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7049&iddeck=51141 Can anyone explain the choice?

Morte
10-31-2011, 06:15 AM
What is with the single Crucible of Worlds maindeck with the only tutor for it in SB, in this Punishing Maverick list (Trial Winner Amsterdam):? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7049&iddeck=51141 Can anyone explain the choice?

That's the former Punishing Mav list by Fabian Gorzgen, the guy who T8 the GP. As you can see, the list is almost the same as the one who brought him to the top 2 days later, being the only difference one Crucible of Worlds in place of the singleton Life from the Loam he played in his final list.

The purpose is the same in both lists: a manabase fixer, required to compensate the gap in stability of the Punishing manabase. Played as a one of, I suppose, intending it as something more versatile than just adding an extra land (like Sami Valkamaa, the guy finishing 9th at the GP with Punishing Mav, did - playing 23 mana producing lands instead of 22).

About why Gorzgen preferred Life from the Loam over Crucible of Worlds, I think it's because Life from the Loam

is more resilient (Crucible can be destroyed/countered, LftL has endless recursion)
thanks to Dredge, LftL can put free extra Punishing Fire in the GY
thanks to Dredge, LftL puts extra lands in the GY, providing more flexibility in the land choice to replace to hand
thanks to Dredge, LftL puts extra lands in the GY, synergizing better with KotR

For these same reasons, I like a lot the singleton Life from the Loam in Punishing Maverick with 22 mana-producing lands.

sir
10-31-2011, 06:29 AM
Yeah, Life from the Loam, recurrent and not subject to standard removal, is a terrific spell and makes plenty of sense to me as a long-game CA singleton (in the slot where some people put Sylvan Library, I would guess) even without a Punishing list. I haven't run it in Maverick but I've seen it used in non-Punishing builds, particularly in board. (I think some of the high-scoring Maverick decks in USA SCG events in the past few months saw it being used.) Not just "CA advantage" (in the non-encompassing sense) actually, since you can wreck people with wasteland if you happen to have everything set up just-so.

I did guess that Crucible is in place of LFTL, but why the choice? Seems to have very little advantage over Loam in our context.

Actually, I suppose thinking about it more those Enlightened Tutors are still there in the sideboard, so you can pull the three together if you want in games 2-3, which makes it the most accessible option. May just be that simple. But the copy you fetch is more likely to get smoked ... and anyway aren't we usually going to use Enlightened Tutor on hate pieces if we made the choice to board them in? (edit: I may be thinking too inflexibly. It offers one more possible way to SB ... like if you were coming up against Pox, without double-checking his SB choices I think you would put in the Tutors to join that Crucible and nothing else, ahhaha. before you would put in nothing, or fiddle with it pointlessly. however, I still would prefer loam in the Pox battle.)

I'm sure there's rationale here and results don't lie. I'm just curious an' all.

=================

Reply to Zand:


Edit: I guess I should suggest things to cut from the normal build, which is where things get tricky... Running no more than 3 Mums

Now this is crazy. :wink: Unless Maverick lists are going to start investigating the Sylvan Safekeeper tech ...

=================


Most maverick decks run 4x Knight of the reliquary, Do you think it may be a good idea to cut 1 KoTR for 1 Terravore?

Cutting KotR IMO definitely not, but you can run a Terravore ...

Morte
10-31-2011, 08:46 AM
Yeah, Life from the Loam, recurrent and not subject to standard removal, is a terrific spell and makes plenty of sense to me as a long-game CA singleton (in the slot where some people put Sylvan Library, I would guess) even without a Punishing list. I haven't run it in Maverick but I've seen it used in non-Punishing builds, particularly in board.

Life from the Loam doesn’t make the cut in straight GW maindeck lists, it’s simply not required. There, it’s just a sideboard option against control. In Punishing lists, which have a much more fragile manabase and rely heavily on Grove of the Burnwillows to recur Punishing Fire, a lategame tool to recur lands is a key for the stability.


I did guess that Crucible is in place of LFTL, but why the choice? Seems to have very little advantage over Loam in our context.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The list with Crucible you mentioned was played by Fabian Gorzgen. The same Gorzgen, the day after, chose to switch Crucible for LftL in the list he actually played to T8 the GP. Hence, the same Gorzgen came to the conclusion that Life from the Loam was better than Crucible of Worlds. The list you mentioned was just a final test, and is an outdated list.


Actually, I suppose thinking about it more those Enlightened Tutors are still there in the sideboard (...)

In fact, you never play Enlightened Tutor MD. It’s a sideboard option to improve your hate density, usually against non-blue decks.

sir
10-31-2011, 09:47 AM
In fact, you never play Enlightened Tutor MD. It’s a sideboard option to improve your hate density, usually against non-blue decks.

You misread me. :( I know this. I am an experienced G/W Maverick player and a good one if I may say so, and I know how Enlightened Tutor is properly used. Mainboarding it (if you're actually playing this deck) is insane.

I was being rhetorical to point out what I perceived as the flaws of trying to pull off the one copy of Crucible of Worlds effectively, and I wondered if the point was to use Tutors on it in G2 and G3 since it's all by its lonesome in G1 which seemed to me like a poor plan. That is my point and my point only.


Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The list with Crucible you mentioned was played by Fabian Gorzgen. The same Gorzgen, the day after, chose to switch Crucible for LftL in the list he actually played to T8 the GP. Hence, the same Gorzgen came to the conclusion that LftL was better than Crucible of Worlds. The list you mentioned was just a final test, and is an outdated list.

Ah, okay, no I didn't pick up on that or misread. I should have checked out the names on both lists. Well, I'm glad he came to the same conclusion that I theorized -- Crucible is worse than Loam for us. :P

What's really nice about his lists are the sideboard choices and the use of Bojuka Bog (did that make maindeck in the final draft as well)? I've always thought a Bojuka Bog can be quite nice in the main. Really messes with a lot of people's day, and you can fetch it.

It's probably harder to pull off without having mana difficulty when you're rolling with Groves, but also synergistic (in a way), as Fatal drafted out. The same trick as I use it for anyway against aggro ... suddenly hobbling their creatures ... but with the fire to throw at things newly toughness-2.


Life from the Loam doesn’t make the cut in straight GW maindeck lists, it’s simply not required. There, it’s just a sideboard option against control.

Which is how I saw it, although I don't see it as such a bad slot include in the place of Sylvan Library (or, say, Elspeth .. and it's a far better choice than Edric), depending on what you're up against. The thing about Loam is that it's fine to turn up in the late game, which is why it's not uncommon to see people just running a single copy without any way to fetch it.

Or maybe I'm just scarred from playing an inordinate number of games against Pox. :tongue: I agree, it's an irregular inclusion. Not unheard of, is all I'm saying.


In Punishing lists, which have a much more fragile manabase and rely heavily on Grove of the Burnwillows to recur Punishing Fire, a lategame tool to recur lands is a key for the stability.

Yeah, absolutely. The additional pertinence should be very clear. The fragility of the manabase is the first thing I noticed, although it seems like the makeup was selected with a lot of care, and it appears to have paid off.

Crackpot suggestion time. I think they (Punishing Mavericks -- sounds like a pro wrestling stable) should try a couple copies of Living Wish, which has proven pretty bad for straight G/W Maverick but worth a check. Put one grove in sideboard and grab it when you want it, utility lands like Bog or Tower of the Magistrate or Maze* grab one when you need one, take the creature you want, yadda yadda. Too bad it's slow ... but hey, not as slow and transparent as Enlightened Tutor for desired pieces, if you indulge my asymmetric comparison.

*(would be kind of nice to sideboard that for Living Wish as long as you have enough -- would help the mana stability you mentioned if not in main -- not that I can suggest this, Maze is too good as a KotR fetch -- but I don't play Punishing Fire. Same goes for Tower of the Magistrate ... moreso. That could be a colored-mana producing land.)

I think we're on the same page about Crucible.

But!! Now I demand you two justify (i.e. enlighten me as to the apparent effectiveness of) the use of 1 Qasali Pridemage mainboard with 1 Qasali Pridemage in the sideboard ... did Fabian hurt for artifact/enchantment hate? My impression was if you want to cut down to 1 Pridemage main (and we're splashing not blue but red) then you want something more comprehensive in the board, like several Krosan Grips (which a few months ago were pretty common as a duo on top of 3, only occasionally 2 Pridemages main), or Serenity, Null Rod/Stony Silence, etc. I suppose Oblivion Ring can work in a pinch, and Phyrexian Metamorph will wipe out a more common Qasali target.

The other component of Pridemage of course is that it's a nice beater and team player, but I imagine this is made up for with recurrent direct damage, so that's not what I wonder about so much.

Thanks for the replies and apologies for my unclear and brain-damagedly parenthetical writing style. This is a good discussion. Over at mtgsalvation, the Maverick thread is ... *crickets*, you know?

Asthereal
10-31-2011, 11:52 AM
Cutting down on the Pridemage count is primarily done because the Punishing Fires tech allows us to do a lot of damage to the creatures,, which makes destroying artifacts less important. The biggest artifacts we must destroy nowadays are equipments, and if we kill their carriers, that will do fine as well.
The one Pridemage sideboard fits well with Zeniths and the rest of the deck. A one-of Grip would do less damage. I would advise on a Serenity or Null Rod only if you expect many Affinity/Mud decks in your meta. They seem narrow for something as big as a GP.
I usually play two Pridemages main and one side. That does okay for destroying nasty artifacts so far (but I don't play the Punishing Fires tech).

I usually drop my games to nasty buggers messing up my mana base. Wasteland + Stifle does me in so many times, it's getting annoying. Really because my teammates playing Tempo Thresh are complaining on how badly the Maverick matchup is for them. Am I just unlucky, or do I need to side imn additional Loams to stop them from hurting my mana base so much?

Koby
10-31-2011, 12:21 PM
@ Tempo Thresh
I think this matchup can be difficult if you're not playing carefully. You have to manage your fetchlands & Wastelands very closely and be wary of Stifle. Fetching basics is always a good call. Having a healthy paranoia of Wasteland will lead to your success! Aside from Stifle, the RUG versions are fairly easy to beat once you have some lands out. Kill Lavamancers on sight, try to get Mother of Runes to stick, and resolve Knight of the Reliquary. Don't be afraid of baiting out some counters with SFM, but also be wary of Stifle on its ETB ability. GSZ for Terravore, KotR, and Ooze are the best here.

Post-board remember that Gaddock Teeg shuts off their Submerge. They will likely take out Force of Will too. Keep an eye out for Gilded Drake and Mind Harness.

bakofried
10-31-2011, 02:43 PM
I'm going to be putting together a list, essentially from scratch. Which list should I shoot for? Punishing? Edric? Traditional?

Koby
10-31-2011, 03:12 PM
I think the Punishing Fires version is really tricky to play correctly (even having a ton of experience with Maverick). I would recommend to start off with traditional GW Maverick. The decks are only different by less than 10 cards at that point. The consensus regarding Edric is that it's win-more and doesn't provide enough advantages compared to the cost of the card in the deck.

Eatatjoes
10-31-2011, 03:28 PM
So with counterbalance coming back, do you guys think this deck needs to put 2 krosan grips back in the board again, or is green sun zenith good enough to beat it?

Asthereal
10-31-2011, 03:57 PM
About Tempo Thresh: the thing with managing fetches carefully is: if I wait with fetching until he taps out, I just get killed by a flipped Delver. I have to just go for it and hope he doesn't carry too many Stifles. Killing any Lavamancers on sight is also not that easy carrying only four StPs. Even after siding when I played sever StP effects they managed to keep one on the table. But perhaps I'm just not lucky enough to consistently go turn 1 Forest into Hierarch. They seem to have trouble with that.

About Counterbalance: you normally run 2-3 Pridemages, 4 Zeniths and a Thrun somewhere in the list. If you see a LOT of Counterbalance again, perhaps you should include Elspeths (which are also good against other control and give a nice edge in the mirror). I think you should beat Counterbalance quite consistently if you pack all the above, and then I'm not even mentioning Choke.

For people starting with Maverick: just start out with the stardard GW list. Pack 3-4 Mothers of Runes, and 3 Mindcensors. Take any of the green bullet creatures you like, pack 1-2 Sylvan Libraries and off you go. Just play with it for a while and familiarize yourself with the mechanics. There's more than enough tricks in the standard list as it is. If you like it and play well with it, maybe it's time to experiment a bit with 'funny' stuff like Punishing Fires, or a bigger Loam package. Edric is very cool, but if he sticks and you get value out of him, you were already winning without him. An extra Knight would then have done the job just as nicely. Not worth messing your mana base for, IMO.

sir
10-31-2011, 05:05 PM
Top-secret tech I thought of: 1 Absolute Law in the enlightened tutorboard? What do you guys think?


Cutting down on the Pridemage count is primarily done because the Punishing Fires tech allows us to do a lot of damage to the creatures,, which makes destroying artifacts less important. The biggest artifacts we must destroy nowadays are equipments, and if we kill their carriers, that will do fine as well.

Gotcha. Good reasoning ... I guess taking over for Qasali Pridemage also helped the choice of maindecking 1 Tower of the Magistrate in Gorzgen's list, despite mana being difficult. Kill a germ or unattach an equipment from anything else.

Equipment is the main Qasali target for sure. Other than that I've Qasali'd chalice of the void, storm combo pieces (from the less adept players who put out their stuff too early), Bitterblossom occasionally, etc. But I suppose the 1 Pridemage that you could fetch (and 1 in sideboard) is enough for these purposes. OK, makes good sense. Not about to cut Qasali from my traditional Maverick lists -- 2 would be minimum and I like 3 -- since it's a perfectly good beatdown, but yeah for Punishing that makes total sense, thanks.

Julian23
10-31-2011, 05:11 PM
Top-secret tech I thought of: 1 Absolute Law in the enlightened tutorboard? What do you guys think?


Why would you want an Enchantment, that can not be protected by Mother of Runes, instead of Ethersworn Canonist?

/edit: yeah, got it confused with Rule of Law. Look at me, using Card-Tags and shit, yet failing to talk about the actual card, lol. :eek:

sir
10-31-2011, 05:30 PM
Why would you want an Enchantment, that can not be protected by Mother of Runes, instead of Ethersworn Canonist?

You're thinking of another card, not Absolute Law -- I remember what you mean although the name escapes me. I would not run that card.

Absolute Law is this:
1W
Enchantment
All creatures gain protection from red.

It's not for Storm naturally, but as something you could pull in for all the lightning-bolt/chain-lightning/lavamancer/fire and ice/Snapcaster people running around who want to blow your poor support cast to smithereens. Seems it could be pretty helpful, as long as it's worth it to board in the Tutors to search for it. (And it seems it is ... since you probably wouldn't mind fetching Choke either against most of these opponents -- not talking about burn, which isn't that threatening to us anyway, but Threshold et al.)

Of course I run 2 Ethersworn Canonists. (and 4 Mother of Runes maindeck) That's something I'll never cut from board. Along with other stuff that helps, like Stony Silence. :tongue:

========

edit: I just remembered ... Rule of Law is the one-spell-per-turn enchantment you're referring to. Yeah, not what I would consider a good choice at all, for precisely the reasons you outlined. Ugh, it even costs 1 more than Canonist, gross.

unicoerner
11-01-2011, 06:27 AM
That's my listi am running now.

// Lands
1 [IN] Forest (4)
1 [B] Plateau
2 [U] Taiga
2 [A] Savannah
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [ON] Plains (2)

// Creatures
2 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [COM] Mother of Runes
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [8E] Birds of Paradise
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [COM] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [NPH] Batterskull

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast

Some comments to the main:
I am back to 4 Mystics+Batterskull+2 Equips. The reasons are:
1) If we fetch a Skull and they destroy our Mystic they already have one removal less for our real creatures.
2) While boarding they have to decide whether they want to go grave hate, artefact hat or to dilute their deck entirely

I removed the Avens because i felt that opponents always saw them coming and keeping the 3 mana up didn't let me put pressure on the opponent.

Witness is back in, because getting equips or a swords back is crucial sometimes.

On the side:
With access to red now, we perhaps can attack combo and blue decks at the same time with our blasts.

privatevendetta
11-02-2011, 12:25 PM
This is my first post on this forum so yay me.
I wanted to throw in my opinion concerning Batterskull. I have often read the argument that Batterskull is stuck in your hand, when Stoneforge is destroyed. I personally have never found this to be a problem. In cases where I expect a removal for Stoneforge I usually dont fetch Batterskull without the possibility to hardcast it in the near future. That means, that I should have access to around 4 mana at the moment (usually 3 in play and one Mana Dork, GSZ or Land in hand). If that is not the case I go for Jitte or SoFaI. Most of the time you should have something to do in the mean time, so if Batterskull would be your only spell and you have not enough mana, youre going all in for Batterskull, which is not the kind of play I prefer.
So the argument depends heavily on your use of Stoneforge.

Next would be my current list, so here it is.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Life from the Loam


I've forgone the mainboard tricks for 3 Phyrexian Revokers. They have their uses against a great variety of cards, especially against fringe decks. I'm not sure if I would take them to a GP but I'm in love with these cards. Together with the full package of Wastelands and Mindcensors they let me switch into a control roll pretty easily. It also improves the BUG matchup slightly, because casting it can either force an opponent to use a Pernicious Deed or render it useless.

Scryb ranger seems kind of win more to me.

Scryb Ranger provides three key elements:
1. Re-use for creatures that have a tap ability (Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, etc)
2. Works with Dryad Arbor to produce a "fog" effect against non-trampling ground guys
3. Pro-blue flyer against Jace TMS, Vendilion Clique, and Merfolk.

Other uses
4. Helps provide extra mana when you don't have any lands to play for the turn.
5. Protects your Savannahs and Dryad Arbor from Wasteland.

1. Although an additional mother seems nice I rarely need two. Most opponents dont have 2 spot removals. I'd rather have a 2nd Knight. But one should be enough against most opponents.

2. Don't we have the biggest nontrampling ground guy in the format?

3. Although it is Jaceproof TM im mostly happy with them bouncing my guys. Because most of the time that means they are going down. I rarely find a Clique in play to be of any problem. And Merfolk what is that besides dead fish?

4. + 5. I like that really but its conditional. And a Wasteland on Dryad Arbor shouldnt be a good play for our opponent most of the time.


Concerning Tempo. I usually have no problem with that matchup. Maybe that's because of my huge number of basics maindeck or my sheer luck I don't know. Have some ramp in your hand and your good to go. Once you reach three mana you should win most of the time. Roughly spoken.


So I've rambled about enough. Some of my points may be exaggerated but I stand by them. I'm happy to hear your answers.

Esper3k
11-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Just a point about the producing extra mana with Scryb Ranger - I don't think it's as conditional as you believe it is. All it means is that you have to have 0 lands in hand.

Gustavoslash
11-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7048&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

Ill face Merfolks, Goblins, zoo, GW and a few dredge/Combo on my next champ.

maurobad2k4
11-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7048&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

Ill face Merfolks, Goblins, zoo, GW and a few dredge/Combo on my next champ.

If you wont face a lot of blue decks, then it works. Otherwise, dont.

privatevendetta
11-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Hummm, what about GW order?
What do u guys think about it?

I did something like
-3 Stoneforge - 2 Sword of x and y
+4 Natural Order +1 Progenitus

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=51133
This list doesnt use STF. I removed 1 Qasali, 3 Crusaders and 1 Ooze for NO Progenitus.

Do u guys think it can work?

It can work and has in the Mental Misstep era. Though I think its a little bit weaker in a faster Meta than the Standard list and you dont really need it, i think its playable.

You should ad a second Sylvan Library though, to avoid drawing Progenitus.

_erbs_
11-03-2011, 10:50 PM
It can work and has in the Mental Misstep era. Though I think its a little bit weaker in a faster Meta than the Standard list and you dont really need it, i think its playable.

You should ad a second Sylvan Library though, to avoid drawing Progenitus.

Hello,
I've always liked the idea of NO combo in the GW aggro shell but the problem of it is its very delicate in the sense if you draw the progen automatically 3-4 cards in your deck are dead draws already. If you use 1 mongrel or fauna shaman in your deck you still need gsz to find it. Using elspeth is a much safer and more consistent route, but i will not deny the fact that able to resolve a NO combo is a very very good win con over the equipment route. another problem with NO combo is that its weak against blue decks especially against merfs... funny how it seems but 2 early drops of cursecatcher by your opponents and NO is a dead card already.

I feel the best way to use NO is in a aggro bant shell in where you have counter backup for your NO.


@RED MAV
This seems to be off topic but i really don't understand whats the big fuss about red mav, i feel and based on playtesting its a slowwer big zoo, and red mav has a weaker build compared to it aswell. I know mav needs to evolve or add a new tech to fight against the new meta but i think going to the route of big zoo is not the way to do it unless we just merge mav and big zoo into one deck. I know people will argue that big zoo doesn't run mother of runes, but big zoo can run it aswell who's to say big zoo can't use mor in there deck. I know red mav is really strong mid to late bec of the recurring punishing fires and adds removal in which mav really needs help since day 1 but , that doesn't proved to be fatal as 4 removal was sufficient enough to make mav a good deck since day 1.

Red Army
11-03-2011, 11:33 PM
Brainstorm is the key card that keeps Natural Order from sucking when you draw Progenitus. Silly elf decks are desperate enough run it, but seriously, I don't think it should be run without Brainstorm, or survival...

Morte
11-04-2011, 03:46 AM
@RED MAV
This seems to be off topic but i really don't understand whats the big fuss about red mav, i feel and based on playtesting its a slowwer big zoo, and red mav has a weaker build compared to it aswell. I know mav needs to evolve or add a new tech to fight against the new meta but i think going to the route of big zoo is not the way to do it unless we just merge mav and big zoo into one deck. I know people will argue that big zoo doesn't run mother of runes, but big zoo can run it aswell who's to say big zoo can't use mor in there deck. I know red mav is really strong mid to late bec of the recurring punishing fires and adds removal in which mav really needs help since day 1 but , that doesn't proved to be fatal as 4 removal was sufficient enough to make mav a good deck since day 1.

I couldn’t agree less. Did you seriously test Punishing Mav? Direct damage is very useful early game too: when I was playing straight GW with 4 removals and failed to draw one, from time to time a single Bob or Lavamancer could own me. Punishing Fire solve the problem AND is brutal later. The mirror is also improved dramatically, planeswalkers becomes much less scarier, especially the new Liliana. I’d point that, besides speculation, the results of GP Amsterdam are a good evidence of how Punishing Mav is one step above (1st and 9th place over 1800+ people after Swiss, above all GW lists, with Fabian Gorgzen finishing first both at the GP and the trial).

About Zoo players, I think it’s a right choice for them to try to overlap more with Maverick. Of course… an even better idea would be totally switching Zoo for Maverick, it’s just a stronger deck :wink:

_erbs_
11-04-2011, 04:53 AM
I couldn’t agree less. Did you seriously test Punishing Mav? Direct damage is very useful early game too: when I was playing straight GW with 4 removals and failed to draw one, from time to time a single Bob or Lavamancer could own me. Punishing Fire solve the problem AND is brutal later. The mirror is also improved dramatically, planeswalkers becomes much less scarier, especially the new Liliana. I’d point that, besides speculation, the results of GP Amsterdam are a good evidence of how Punishing Mav is one step above (1st and 9th place over 1800+ people after Swiss, above all GW lists, with Fabian Gorgzen finishing first both at the GP and the trial).

About Zoo players, I think it’s a right choice for them to try to overlap more with Maverick. Of course… an even better idea would be totally switching Zoo for Maverick, it’s just a stronger deck :wink:

Punishing fire needs lots of mana for you to be able to use it properly so do equips vs tempo decks or fast decks or decks that cripple your mana you will choose which route to take. Big zoo almost plays similarly but has a faster clock and smaller curve for its equip carrier in the form of nactals thus will not suffer the same faith as the slower red mav. When the game prolongs i will not deny that red mav is really hard to stop but against blue decks you still loose to card quality.., thus again enter why you also need a certain speed to finish off your opponents.. thats why i really liked the idea of NO combo but decided not to incorporate it due to lack off support spells. its a good win condition as it puts pressure to your opponent to find an answer or quickly win, while RED Mav is a grinding deck.

Gustavoslash
11-04-2011, 06:47 AM
well, on my tests most of time i didnt use the NO combo -.-
I lost 1 time i used it thanks to bolt+bolt+chain lighting+fireblast, but i won vs a Show and Tell turn 2 for Progenitus plus show and tell turn 3 for Emrakul. (in the same game).
The Progenitus is really good vs the meta i think ill face next week.
But well, to be honest, i think Sword/better way to find Jitte > progenitus.
Maybe i should run Red Mav. My friend said that a lot of ppl here are playing Canadian/Team america. Can the manabase of Red Mav fuck me vs this guys? Or i should just ignore this point because Punishing fire is good vs the other guys?

Morte
11-04-2011, 07:14 AM
@_erbs_
Blue decks are 2/3 of the format. Currently, winning requires to beat blue. Does Maverick beat blue? Yes, it’s one of its strong points. Always easily? No, especially against mass destruction or recurring removals with Snappy.

Does NO package improve this matchup? On the contrary, it’s very week against blue.

Does Punishing package improve this matchup? A lot, against all variants.

You said “Punishing fire needs lots of mana for you to be able to use it properly”. I’m still skeptical you actually tested it. I suppose you’re referring to the situation when you have the combo online and you’re shooting one Fire per turn (so you’re investing 3 mana per turn for that). Well… If you succeed to establish the combo early game and you’re frying a creature per turn without spending any more card, I’d say you’re in Heaven :smile:

But seriously, usually you’re not that lucky, you just shoot one or two Fire in the “fair” way (I play 4) and maybe you can recur them later. And even then, it’s a choice of yours to invest your mana in recurring Fire rather than doing something else. You opt for the best move depending on the situation… As for every other choice in the game… This is not an argument at all.

Same for “When the game prolongs i will not deny that red mav is really hard to stop but against blue decks you still loose to card quality..” : simply not true?

I can understand that you want to push the play style you like the most, but don’t mix it with the research of the most efficient configuration of the deck. If you like Zoo, play Zoo; if you like NO, play NO; if you don’t like Fire, just be in the cooler.



@Gustavoslash
I’d say that tempo metchup is more or less the same for straight GW and Punishing Mav. Punishing manabase is more unstable in terms of color screwing but more or less equal in terms of mana screwing, being the number basics not so different (I play 2 basics in Punishing against 3 in GW) and the total amount of lands is greater or equal (someone plays 23 lands against 22, or 5 Hierarch+BoP against 4, I play 22 lands and one Life from the Loam).
On the other hand, Punishing Fire burns Delver of Secrets, often singlehandedly giving you the time required to overrun the tempo strategy.

Maëlig
11-04-2011, 08:30 AM
@Gustavoslash
I’d say that tempo metchup is more or less the same for straight GW and Punishing Mav. Punishing manabase is more unstable in terms of color screwing but more or less equal in terms of mana screwing, being the number basics not so different (I play 2 basics in Punishing against 3 in GW) and the total amount of lands greater or equal (someone plays 23 lands against 22, or 5 Hierarch+BoP against 4, I play 22 lands and one Life from the Loam.
On the other hand, Punishing Fire burns Delver of Secrets, often singlehandedly giving you the time required to overrun the tempo strategy.

Imo the tempo thresh MU is significantly better with the punishing fire version. Delver (if it comes down quick enough and is protected) and lavamancer are really what worries us most in this MU (goyf can be blocked or kept in check with ooze), and having a recurrable way to deal with them is invaluable.Straight GW's better mana base doesn't compensate for this.

Gustavoslash
11-04-2011, 11:07 AM
Do u mind to post your list for me? Im working on it, but i cant decide what creatures and lands to use.
What do u guys do vs Storm? Sit and cry?

Machahiko
11-04-2011, 02:21 PM
What do u guys do vs Storm?

I try to fight it, if it looks bad I take out my wallet, search the closest bar and get loaded.

Morte
11-04-2011, 02:32 PM
This is the list I’m running now:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Red Elemental Blast


Aginst storm, game one is of course unfavorable. My maindeck hate counts 3 Mindcensors and Teeg, to GSZ asap and possibly protect with MoR. That’s just a slow down in any case, Teeg can be bounced even under MoR protection with Wipe Away and Mindcensor hurts but can be bypassed. You need this AND a clock to stand a chance.

Game 2-3 every Maverick list sides in a lot of stuff. In my case, I board in 3 REB, 2 Choke, 1 Thorn of Amethyst and 2 Canonist against any storm deck. If they don’t have counters, 2 Enlightened Tutor too to increase hate density without risking too much card disadvantage. Sometimes, if graveyard tricks are very relevant for them, also some GY hate.

About how to play after boarding, you need to play 2+ (different) pieces of hate and to have a clock. Never keep a slow hand without hate, and evaluate carefully a hand with one single piece of hate if it’s too slow.

Storm is an unfavorable matchup but it’s winnable. Remember, don’t give too much relevance to games where TES smashes you before you can open your mouth: every (decent) deck is unwinnable with a God hand… even if it doesn’t do it in a way as spectacular as a turn 1 or 2 goldfish. Just consider that they can’t do it that consistently, and you’ll see how storm is much more “fair” than what a lot of people like to say.

iScare
11-04-2011, 03:29 PM
@Morte: My MD list is similar to use with the exception that I have 4 MoR and 2 Oozes, but no Sylvan. I really want to play Sylvan, but i feel like I need more creatures in the deck for threats....i am still agonizing about what to take out for 2 Sylvan.

KobeBryan
11-04-2011, 03:42 PM
@Morte: My MD list is similar to use with the exception that I have 4 MoR and 2 Oozes, but no Sylvan. I really want to play Sylvan, but i feel like I need more creatures in the deck for threats....i am still agonizing about what to take out for 2 Sylvan.

If you are agonizing over 2 card slots, i suggest you quit magic and do something less stressful

iScare
11-04-2011, 04:38 PM
If you are agonizing over 2 card slots, i suggest you quit magic and do something less stressful

It is quite stressful, everything in the deck seems to be very useful. Nothing wrong about being stressful in trying to figure out what needs to go in my deck.

Red Army
11-05-2011, 03:00 AM
This is what I meant to post yesterday but I got distracted:

@ everyone - when you suggest to start off with an 'easier' list, you overstate the difficulty of playing the deck. This is hardly storm combo, and bakofried is an experienced magic player. Individual Magic decks aren't puzzles that take years of training to master (although you can always learn a few new tricks with experience) - if you're good at Magic you should be able to romp with Maverick, so when an experienced player suggests what's the best list to commit to building piece by piece, you ought to tell them like they are just as good a player as you.

Fatal
11-05-2011, 03:26 AM
Maverick is a deck which can be adjust to almost any playstyle. So best to start with Core GW list, then adding all cards which best fit to your game play. For example for a long time I was using Rafiq+Terravore in GW/u list which was most game ending strategy. Now I changed to more controlish version GW/r with Punishing Fires and with Sylvan Library to take longer plans on game state. Its much diffrent then storm deck where you have routes to puzzle to win. Here you have know since turn 1-2 vs what you are playing to choose correct plays. Like I saw on SCG on future match, a lot of ppl still playing maverick very bad. This deck has a lot of tricks. Most of then are writed in this little thread, but not all.

For example:

1) I found that Avens have one more function. The force opponent fetches, so for example if opponent starts and doesn't want to search lands from them, just play it so your wasteland on hand will find target..

2) Next trick is using SFM having equip already on hand:
a) If you have Batterskull go for SoLS, and play Batterskull
b) If you have SOLS and not too many lands, go for Jitte if face'ing aggro
c) If you have SOLS and a lot of lands, go for Batterskull

If you starting with Noble, and Mom its also hard to decide what to play first. To take correct decision you have to know vs what you are playing. Next thing if you are on play you have do decide depends on your hand.

Most time playing Hierarch first is better since even if he kill it, you will still able to play Mom which most avoid removal, If he didn't kill it - even better access to 3 mana is very nice since you dodge Dazes and can play 3cmc spells or just use wasteland.

Mom is next card which isn't too well playing.. It should blank removal on hand, blocking and protection, isn't sometimes worth, you have to calculate when its must block, and when those life doesn't matter.

Since tempo is rised, next card which have to be consider vs is stifle. Most of creatures/lands, have activation costs from my experience better to took out stifle in early game, then died from bad working Maze. Don't forget that you can use Maze of Ith before declarating blockers, so use Maze, if he stifle - just block :). Also always remember Maze of Ith can be used after dmg step..

Using right KotRs is on of the most important thing in this deck. For example - calculate his size, never attack it when he is just too small more worth is to fetch lands, then attack 3 times then attacking 4 times to victory - same clock but you fetch lands which isn't best draws in middle/late. Scryb Ranger can be calculated as (+2/+2)*turns for each land you have in play which is forest for KotR.

Bojuka Bog is on of the most important card on SB - not only vs decks like Dredge/Reanimator. IT is good also in mirrors, and all U snapcasters, or decks using Ghastly Demise. Next situation:
-Having Pridemage on table across gigantic KotR on opponents control, Bojuka on hand. Attack with Pridemage, he will block, then put Bojuka from Hand and KotRs is dead.

Maëlig
11-05-2011, 05:29 AM
-Having Pridemage on table across gigantic KotR on opponents control, Bojuka on hand. Attack with Pridemage, he will block, then put Bojuka from Hand and KotRs is dead.
Not gonna happen. Opponent's KotR will just look for a fetch and crack it after bog's trigger resolves, making it 4/4. Usually works if you attack with another KotR (or if you have ranger in play), but a smart player will see it coming.

damionblackgear
11-05-2011, 06:03 AM
Not gonna happen. Opponent's KotR will just look for a fetch and crack it after bog's trigger resolves, making it 4/4. Usually works if you attack with another KotR (or if you have ranger in play), but a smart player will see it coming.

If played after combat they can fetch all they want. At some point, their knight will be a 2/2 with 2+ damage on her. The only way they're getting out of that one is if they fetch for a blue and stifle the bog trigger.

If they don't block... you did damage. I don't see the downfall to this unless you needed them to block. If you do need them to block, I'd actually suggest you bait with the largest acceptable loss to make sure they block, or maximize the end result. That doesn't mean you have to swing a knight. Sometimes 2 damage is enough, but if you can slip more in, why not?

Maëlig
11-05-2011, 07:43 AM
My bad, I somehow thought he meant fetching bog before combat damage to ensure qasali lives (which doesn't work, as I explained). Reading fail.

bakofried
11-06-2011, 04:39 PM
This may not be entirely relevant with the given meta, but does anyone have any tips for the Goblins mu?

Bzka
11-06-2011, 05:19 PM
This may not be entirely relevant with the given meta, but does anyone have any tips for the Goblins mu?

Try to hold a hand that can handle first turn Lackey (Dryad Arbor is a bit risky here as they have Ports for it) and resolve a Jitte/Bskull asap. Postboard they bring Perish and artifacthate so try to play around it and boarding Path's can be really bad for you, esp on the draw.
All in all this matchup is fairly easy if you can do the combat math right.

Philipp2293
11-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Congratz to Ruckus for top 8ing SCG Open Vegas. I'm eager to hear his thoughts on not running Mindcensors (probably he decided that Uxx will suppress combo enough).

Also whats with SCG naming his list Bant Stoneblade, yet naming the 9th place list Maverick?

Koby
11-07-2011, 03:14 AM
I did indeed top 8 with maverick. I'll keep this brief cuz Las Vegas is ridic. Went 7-1 into top 8 then lost to the winner.

Round 1 - affinty L
Round 2 - ANT W
Round 3 - Blue Junk W
Round 4- Junk Depths W
Round 5 - Reanimator W
Round 6 - Aggro Bant W
Round 7 - Big Zoo W
Round 8 - Aggro Bant W
Top 8 - Canadian Threshold carbon copy L

Closer detail will be in the report later this week.

Cheeers!

bakofried
11-07-2011, 03:18 AM
Great job rukcus! I'd love to hear a report, and some thoughts on your MD changes.

maurobad2k4
11-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Yeah, good job indeed ! It's about time to introduce Maverick to the American metagame.

kues
11-07-2011, 08:30 AM
How did you loose against Canadian Threshold?
I've been playing canadian for loooong time, and GW was, by far, my worst match up.

Anyway, congrats for your top8 (:

Gustavoslash
11-07-2011, 09:52 AM
haha, i wanna know what happened in ur game vs Canadia.
U won vs ANT and Reanimator (can be easy but can be REALLY hard)

Gratz! I think ill run ur list this week on a champ.
Hummm, why no Mindcensor? dont u think it help a lot vs Storm deck?

Esper3k
11-07-2011, 09:58 AM
Congrats on your finish, dude! Too bad about that loss to Canadian since I always felt like that matchup is pretty good for us.

Koby
11-07-2011, 10:44 AM
Delver of secrets is a motherfucker. I lost game 3 like this: opening hand wasteland x2, maze of ith, karakas, cradle, sfm, and ooze. I think I drew Sofi in the middle too. On the deciding turn my board was scryb ranger, ooze, wastex2, cradle, savannah. I topdecked jitte and equiped vs fresh goyf and 2 delvers flipped. I was at 3 life.

I think punishing fires mavs is better against can thresh than stock GW, but overall its weaker versus my metagame. Also might want a second scryb ranger.

Group brainstorming: what are good ways to deal with flyers in maverick? (Delver, tombstalker, flying reanimator targets, serra avenger, clique, various faeries, etc)

I think 1 Engineered Explosives might be useful, as well against Dredge too.

mordraid
11-07-2011, 10:53 AM
Group brainstorming: what are good ways to deal with flyers in maverick? (Delver, tombstalker, flying reanimator targets, serra avenger, clique, various faeries, etc)



The two easiest ways to deal with flying is putting a 2nd scryb ranger and to split the hierarch count with birds of paradise at 3/1 ratio.

Esper3k
11-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Second Scryb could be fine? Play Mindcensors again, I guess?

Heh, just brainstorming but a 1-of Thornweald Archer? That guy is hilarious against Tombstalkers.

Aggro_zombies
11-07-2011, 11:17 AM
The answers I can think of:

Broad:
Split with Birds and Hierarch
Another Ranger
Thornweald Archer

Narrow:
Corrosive Gale
Plummet
Leaf Arrow
Raking Canopy
Soaring Seacliff

Asthereal
11-07-2011, 12:22 PM
As an answer to annoying dudes I added a total of 4 Path to Exiles to my 75.
During GP Amsterdam 7 seemed insufficient.
What also helps is not forgetting to add Goyfs to your 75. At least one, but preferably two. They are better beaters than Delvers so you can win the race with them, and they are a lot easier to cast or Zenith up than Knights, which is important against Tempo Thresh.

RogueMTG
11-07-2011, 12:29 PM
I top 16'd Jupiter Game's tournament with Maverick this past weekend with a similar list to rukcus (unfortunately I audibled to the deck the night before and my sideboard was terrible).

This was the main I played:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Bird of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridmage
2 Scavaging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


I lost two win-and-in rounds in a row :frown:, but I basically came to these same conclusions:


Delver of secrets is a motherfucker.
...
Also might want a second scryb ranger.
...

I also missed the threat Batterskull presents a little bit. Light and Shadow was pretty meh most of the day and will likely be cut or moved to the board. The one-of Elspeth was excellent, single-handedly winning at least four games throughout the tournament.

Rounds went down like this:

U/W Stoneforge w/Spellstutter - Win 2-0
Deadguy - Win 2-0
R/B Bob/Lilliana of the Veil - Win 2-1
RUG Tempo - Lose 0-2
FaeBlade - Win 2-0
UR Delver Burn - Lose 0-2
Reanimator - Lose 1-2

I was in ninth and the Reanimator player was in tenth heading into the last round.

Our match was a tight battle that left me wishing I had some Surgical's in my board as Bog and Ooze were too slow. A timely Angel of Despair on my Karakas lost me game 3 and ended my top 8 hopes.

I'd probably be looking to play something like this next time:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Bird of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridmage
1 Scavaging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard:

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stoney Silence
1 Enlightened Tutor

Esper3k
11-07-2011, 12:30 PM
I think Ooze is just fine over Goyf though. Especially with the Snapcaster variants gaining popularity in the US, Ooze gets even better and beats Goyf (assuming you get to untap with it or cast it with some open G).

Asthereal
11-07-2011, 12:38 PM
I would never cut Ooze, just play both.

iScare
11-07-2011, 02:30 PM
just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on playing baneslayer as a 1 of to fight of those flyers?

from Cairo
11-07-2011, 02:36 PM
just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on playing baneslayer as a 1 of to fight of those flyers?

As a 1-of nongreen creature seems unreliable. If going that route I think Mystic Enforcer would probably be better since you could at least tutor it against Tombstalker. Though I think just running more removal or Scrybs/Avens/Mirrans to carry equipment are both superior strategies to miser 4+cc guys.

Einherjer
11-07-2011, 03:12 PM
If you want finisher, play Rafiq of the Many or Terravore...

mordraid
11-07-2011, 08:12 PM
just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on playing baneslayer as a 1 of to fight of those flyers?

Having a 1-of in white isn't reliable enough to warrant a spot. You rarely sees a baneslayer angel flying the skies of legacy. Mostly because at five mana you should already be doing more broken things thay playing a baneslayer.

GGoober
11-07-2011, 08:30 PM
I did indeed top 8 with maverick. I'll keep this brief cuz Las Vegas is ridic. Went 7-1 into top 8 then lost to the winner.

Round 1 - affinty L
Round 2 - ANT W
Round 3 - Blue Junk W
Round 4- Junk Depths W
Round 5 - Reanimator W
Round 6 - Aggro Bant W
Round 7 - Big Zoo W
Round 8 - Aggro Bant W
Top 8 - Canadian Threshold carbon copy L

Closer detail will be in the report later this week.

Cheeers!

Grats dude!

Maverick is a really really strong deck. Too bad US metagames (namely SCG) all tend to have the same Top 8/16 players playing the same stupid blue-decks. Maverick crushes blue.

sauce
11-08-2011, 11:42 AM
play 1 of Daybreak ranger and a plateau/taiga.
can also play lavamancers in the sb to break the mirror wide open

Koby
11-08-2011, 11:48 AM
play 1 of Daybreak ranger and a plateau/taiga.
can also play lavamancers in the sb to break the mirror wide open

This is actually a good suggestion on the Daybreak Ranger, I only wish it cost 2 mana instead of 3.

Gustavoslash
11-08-2011, 12:17 PM
Hey guys, i think ill play this list

Maindeck
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and ice
1 umezawas jitte
1 eternal Witness
4 KotR
4 Mother of runes
3 noble Hierarch
1 birds of paradise
3 qasali pridemage
1 scavenging ooze
2 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
2 sylvan library
4 swords to plowshares
1 gaddock
1 thrun
4 GSZ
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon canopy
4 Savannah
4 wasteland
4 windswept heath
1 dryad arbor
1 gaea`s cradle
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 maze of ith

there are 58 cards.
What should i use?
2 Mirran crusaders? (i love this card)
1 Elspeth + 1 Loam
2 Aven Mindcensor?

Ill probably face Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Canadian and Gw.
Some Storm too -.-