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Esper3k
11-08-2011, 12:34 PM
Anyone been testing Canonists main at all?

I'm liking them so far since they shut down Snapcasters and gives us a little more game against Storm combo.

Koby
11-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Syvlan Library is less important against aggro metagames than it is against control. You could cut 1 of them from your maindeck.

To fill in the remaining cards, you could run 1 Tarmogoyf (zoo, tribal) 1 Elspeth, and 1 Sylvan Safekeeper. I've been looking at that card for several weeks as a way to increase the protection against removal. In a metagame filled with creature decks that pack removal, this seems like a good idea.

Gustavoslash
11-08-2011, 01:24 PM
hummm, well, for sure ill test this cards.
I dont really like tarmogoyf, but ill give it a try.
Safekeeper and Elspeth for sure ill run.

Ty man

iScare
11-08-2011, 01:58 PM
How do you guys fight reanimator? They keep going off t2 or t3 with Jin and he always have a daze/FoW in hand ready to counter. I feel like my GY hate is slow.

Should i be packing 4 faerie macabre instead of 2?

This is my SB:

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 tormod's crypt
2 enlightened tutor
1 ethersworn canonist
2 red elemental blast
2 Krosan grip
2 Price of Progress
2 faerie macabre

Gustavoslash
11-08-2011, 02:04 PM
can u post ur Maindeck?

Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone

Wic
11-08-2011, 03:25 PM
Hi everyone!
first of all i apologize for my english, i'm a reader from years but this is the first time i post.

At the moment i'm playing the "straight" GW version, with punishing fires the deck fights much better mancers, confidants and mirror match critter but the mana base ends up in something that i could define Hierarch dependant. Probably i'm gonna play that version only in tournaments with 8+ swiss rounds.

these days i run 2 libraries maindeck, wich are actually good fixing draws and filling the curve at 2. i think that's the real problem, i want to get rid of those libraries but dont know how to replace them the best way without ruining the mana curve.
tarmo and ooze#2 sounds fair and seems a good step forward fighting lavamancers, what do you think?



can u post ur Maindeck?

Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.
Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone

quote, dont care about godhands. sometimes you'll just face one and lose. the same way youll be losing every single game against belcher, dont get mad. Value every single slot in your sideboard with your brain and tournaments will pay you out. Create your sideboard with "the fear" in your mind and you'll lose in regular situation... and u will still be losing from godhands...

iScare
11-08-2011, 03:26 PM
can u post ur Maindeck?

Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone

That's the sad thing. He's been getting that a lot. At the last (small) tournament with about 35 players, he's been killing opponents T2/T3 with Jin. He went undefeated before Top 8 and lost in Top 8 to Stifle when he tried to Fetch his land on T1. I don't want to concentrate majority of my SB for reanimator as i have to worry for ANT/TES too. I feel like SB is what will win games.

Anyways, here's my MD:

3 grove of the burnwillows
1 plateau
2 savannah
1 Taiga
1 forest
1 plains
3 windswept heath
3 wooded foothill
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor

4 Knight of the reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the loam


I am still debating which sword(s) to use. I need to squeeze a Teeg in there somewhere. Maybe i'll reduce an ooze or take out Witness for teeg or just SB Teeg.

I really like the punishing fire with Grove. it clears the board really well in mid game.

Koby
11-08-2011, 03:34 PM
can u post ur Maindeck?

Well,if ur in play is easier, since u can play knight of the reliquary.

Karakas is the way to go. And if u can get him in a good Bojuka, everything will be fine.
Usually they dont really reanimate on turn 2.
Godhands like this, reanimate turn 2 with FoW is hard for everyone

Even with a "god-hand" Reanimator targets are fairly limited in racing Maverick. The usually targets against GW Maverick are Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Empyrial Archangel, Inkwell Leviathan, and Jin-gitaxias. The other legends are too limited in scope and get bounced by Karakas. Jin does too, but at least he draws the Reanimator player extra cards to find more fatties. It also depends on the speed of which Reanimator is setup.

Naturally, the non-legend, non-shroud creatures are easily susceptible to StP, and so it makes the matchup somewhat even.

There is no "secret" tech, just tight play against Reanimator. Being on the play, and mulliganing correctly is the only real strategy involved.

---------------------------
Many people asked why I did not run Aven Mindcensor in my list. I'll try to answer that now, and may repeat it in my tournament report (just got in last night from Vegas). I have always known that Mindcensor is relatively weak due to his mana cost, and his effect is hard to quantify. In my preparation for the tournament, I knew Snapcaster Mage would see a lot of play. I also knew Reanimator is seeing a lot of play near Southwest. Lastly, Dredge was always a problem that pops up in blue-infested metagames. For those reasons, I decided that Aven Mindcensor would not be as useful for a 2nd Ooze and a 4th Mom. Those definitely helped out for SCG Vegas.

Unfortunately, the lack of extra fliers made life difficult against Delver of Secrets. Luckily, I faced that matchups that I anticipated and tailored the deck for, and wasn't hurt by missing Aven Mindcensors. In that sense, the deck performed flawlessly.

iScare
11-08-2011, 03:50 PM
Once Jin lands on T2 and he draws 7...he saves at least 2 or 3 counters and start fetching for more fatties. Maybe my luck and boarding has been bad against reanimator.

Morte
11-08-2011, 06:59 PM
It’s a while now I’m testing Maverick with Punishing Fire against a wide variety of matchups and my conclusion is that it’s definitely an improvement over straight GW.

Many people seem to overly concern against the manabase. I was one of them before testing seriously, and I had to change idea. I played a lot against land-destruction decks like Rock, Tempo and Merfolk, and I smashed them very consistently.

My conclusion is that the manabase is just fine. On the other hand: consider that many of the top tier decks run 3 colors, equally distributed, often in addiction to colorless lands (Wasteland above all), and it works. Punishing Mav runs 2 colors + a red splash (for just 3-4 cards maindeck) with a total of 22-24 lands (I play 23 with a Maze and a LftL). You just need to stabilize GW at the beginning of the match: you can fetch basic forest, plains or both quite easy (I play 7 fetchlands), or you can play or GSZ for a mana critter, or you can play duals… And any combination of these options is okay to start the game. Later, mana issues totally disappear.

Don’t forget that, at the beginning of the game, a single shot of red is usually enough: let’s say you start with Punishing Fire in hand, your opponent plays Wasteland and you can provide a single red land. You just start with GW and do your game, then, if opponent plays that Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer or Delver of Secrets, you play your red land and burn the critter: and then, who cares if your only red land gets wasted? You gained time to search for another red mana source for your eventual next Punishing Fire, and go on with your GW game. Later, when you’ll have less cards in hand and more mana available, Grove of the Burnwillows will be the nuts.

My current list:


4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Red Elemental Blast


In the end I’m playing Bojuka Bog MD: it’s very useful in al lot of matchups (anything with Snapcaster, KotR), it’s a huge improvement for winning game one against problematic matchups like Dredge or Reanimator, and it’s tolerable when it’s CIP ability is useless.

I also want two Sylvan Library: filter effect is especially relevant here, maximizable, since we can shuffle almost every turn, and opening a huge choice of possibilities, with the countless synergies of the deck.

@Ruckus: grats on the finish! I’m curios to understand why you concluded that straight GW was more targeted to your meta than Punishing. In the end, you met:

Round 1 - affinty L
Round 2 - ANT W
Round 3 - Blue Junk W
Round 4- Junk Depths W
Round 5 - Reanimator W
Round 6 - Aggro Bant W
Round 7 - Big Zoo W
Round 8 - Aggro Bant W
Top 8 - Canadian Threshold

Except ANT and Reanimator, which are more or less the same (maybe more side for red splash, with REB – I have 3 more answers to blue spells and Jin Jitaxian), I’d say Punishing Mav really shines against stuff like that. Junk, Bant, Zoo, Canadian are much better matchups for Punishing Mav. Canadian Threshold is especially much easier, Punishing Fire > Delver of Secrets. The same Fabian Gorgzen said that’s his easiest matchup.

@Gustavoslash: “I’ll probably face Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Canadian and Gw”. Punishing Mav is really a no brainer for you. Fire gives the best against tribal and Canadian, and is a big help against Zoo and the Mirror.

My final impression is that Punishing Mav is less forgiving of misplays and more complicated to master, but it’s really worth the effort.

Koby
11-08-2011, 07:25 PM
I concluded that straight GW would better for several reasons:
1. Anticipation of a ton of tempo strategies (Wasteland, Stifle, Daze)
2. Anticipation of a ton of Graveyard strategies

For these two reasons I wanted to make sure I had both a stable manabase and room for a 2nd Ooze. Ooze is awesome against Snapcaster Mage and Tarmogoyf. My win against ANT, Blue Junk, Reanimator, Big Zoo, and all the KotR decks are directly attributed to Scavenging Ooze. The traitional GW version has access to Gaea's Cradle, which is otherwise too risky to run in Punishing Fires version. Being able to pop out Ooze + Cradle to nuke a graveyard was something I didn't want to lose.

I was also lacking 3 Groves, even though I could have borrowed them very easily. I did not perform enough testing with the deck to feel comfortable in a long tournament to play the deck. This is secondary to the reasons listed above.

_erbs_
11-08-2011, 10:14 PM
Just a detour on the current topic of Red Mav, i know that punishing fires is a form of card advantage in a sense are there any card advantage strategies out there that could be used by mav. sylvan library can only do so much as you can't get more than 2-3 cards as the ouch is too much.

As for the still hotly discussed red mav issue what ruckus had posted i feel the only concern which is very relevant is the match up against tempo, i feel that loosing the punishing fire strategy is ok but being mana screwed thats another thing which i don't want to happen.

Red mav creatures are somewhat weaker compared to a straight GW build in the sense lesser equipment online earlier , lesser chance of being able to access equip aswell. If you look at the creature list of mav you'll find that mav's creature are wimpy expect for kotr , thus the need of equips unless you are running flyers then your equips will be awesome.

I know this was discussed awhile back but, ask yourselves which do think guys is much worth it Running 4 serra avenger + 4 vial or running 4 GsZ + 4 1off creatures

i will not discuss the pro's and con's of ea card combo but rather state what i feel the biggest factor both card combo has.

serra avenger + vial
- an excellent equipment carrier and a solid flying creature
- dodges countermagics & mana screw

GsZ + 4 one off's creatures
- losses the creature base diversity and tutor. => think about this and most likely you'll end up picking the following targets (pridemage, ranger & kotr) teeg or witness.
- never a bad top deck compared to vial
- losses the 1st turn arbor play which i think is really a big plus

at a glace the clear cut winner is gsz + 4 1offs.. but give yourselves a minute and think about this, If i don't have access to 4 gsz and 1 arbor would it hurt the deck significantly.

i was thinking something like this..

Lands [21]
3 wasteland
3 grove of the burnwillows
2 taiga
3 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 wooded foothills
1 plains
1 forest
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

creatures [22]
4 mother of runes
2 birds of paradise
2 noble hiearch
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 scavenging ooze
3 kotr

spells [17]
4 aether vial
4 punishing fires
4 stp
3 gsz
1 jitte
1 solas

Esper3k
11-08-2011, 10:33 PM
My experience with playing Punishing Fires against decks like Junk and Bant is actually the opposite - Punishing Fires has usually been pretty bad against them.

Large guys like Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary are pretty rough on PFires where even if you recur it, it still isn't enough damage to kill them.

_erbs_
11-09-2011, 12:02 AM
My experience with playing Punishing Fires against decks like Junk and Bant is actually the opposite - Punishing Fires has usually been pretty bad against them.

Large guys like Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary are pretty rough on PFires where even if you recur it, it still isn't enough damage to kill them.

Thats true thats why i raised the concern of mav's creature are still dependent on equips.., with an evasive creature the equipment becomes better..

Morte
11-09-2011, 02:57 AM
Obviously, the advantage of Punishing Fire lists against Junk and Bant is not in terms of managing Goyf – from that point of view it’s exactly the same as GW. You have 4 StP, 3-4 MoR, 1-2 Ooze, Maze of Ith… for early Goyfs. Later, your card advantage grants you more and bigger creatures.

The real improvement of Punishing Fire is the huge increment of removals for their other creatures.

When I played straight GW, my biggest problem against such decks was the low removal density. With just 4 StP I often lacked that removal for Junk’s early Dark Confidant.

Against their Stoneforge Mystic? Now I can consistently remove them as they CIP. Therefore, if they fetch Batterskull it’ll be stuck in their hands for a while, and for the time when they’ll have 5 mana through my Wasteland and removals for their mana critters, I’ll have an answer like a Qasali Pridemage or enough mana to fry the germ on the fly (5 mana with one Grove of the Burnwillows = 4 instant damage). If they fatch for Jitte or a sword, again it’s much easier for me to remove any possible carrier, nullifying it.

Removing a BoP or a Hierarch is often a good move, but when you have just 4 StP won’t you think it’s better to save them for actual issues? With 4 StP + 3-4 recurring Fire the problem does not exist: you fry the mana critter and robustly play your slow-down strategy, while saving your StP for real threats.

@Esper3k: I’m really surprised you’re doing bad against Junk and Bant, I can just think you’re doing something wrong. Honestly, my actual matchup against them is something like 70-30 among 20+ games. Right yesterday evening, my opponent attacked with a 7/7 KotR, played another one and passed. EoT I tapped Groove and replaced Fire to my hand. In my turn, I fetched for Bojuka Bog (I play one maindeck) with my KotR and fried both his 2/2 KotR with Punishing Fire + Punishing Fire :wink:

sir
11-09-2011, 06:30 AM
rukcus, thanks for the wisdom and well done! You expressed perfectly my ambivalence about Aven Mindcensor (depending on meta obviously.) If only it cost either 1W or 1GW! Then there would be no question for me. As it is I actually tend to build without it, using the slots elsewhere. e.g. I definitely run 2 Scavenging Ooze and 4 Mom mainboard.

BTW as far as flying stuff goes, besides 1 Birds of Paradise of Fire and Ice replacing one of the 4 Noble Hierachs, a second Scryb Ranger sounds great (generally a flying opponent is Delver or Clique) and besides all the other good stuff it does (the ability to bounce your lands and accelerate your mana early if needed would be huge even without untapping Mom/KotR/whatever) you can surprise people flashing it in -- more of a prospect with two rather than the 1 as a GSZ target. But I love Scryb Ranger.

Beyond that, if you want more and you were thinking of boarding 1-of something like Daybreak Ranger -- actually you might figure out how to scrounge up one more SB slot and just put 2 Aven Mindcensors in sideboard, which certainly might see themselves boarded in more various situations besides for their flying.

How was the fetchable Terravore for you? Good? I like that it won't get killed off without great difficulty in the Threshold matchup. As I mentioned recently my preference for extra beaters has been for 2-3 Mirran Crusader, which tend to decidedly swing aggro matchups to one's favor but it's troublesome that he dies to lightning bolt or chain lightning or Grim Lavamancer if you can't protect him. My only concern is that it's one more graveyard dependent creature, but this shouldn't be a problem -- I might do 2 Mirran Crusader 1 Terravore and put Thrun in board.

I bet the mainboard Eternal Witness and 2 Sylvan Library came off well?

Well, I look forward to your full report whenever you post it up! (You can just answer this stuff in the report I'm sure, whatever you want, don't feel pressured by these questions.) Well done again!

sir
11-09-2011, 06:51 AM
I know the manabase is unstable but maybe you Punishing Fire guys should experiment with one mainboard Kessig Wolf Run (perhaps instead of the 1 mainboard Tower of the Magistrate in Fabian's list.) Curious to see if that could come off decently.

Morte
11-09-2011, 08:23 AM
GWr manabase works fine. The majority of the strongest decks in the format play 3 colors, why do you insist on this point? I can quote myself:


consider that many of the top tier decks run 3 colors, equally distributed, often in addiction to colorless lands (Wasteland above all), and it works. Punishing Mav runs 2 colors + a red splash (for just 3-4 cards maindeck) with a total of 22-24 lands (I play 23 with a Maze and a LftL). You just need to stabilize GW at the beginning of the match: you can fetch basic forest, plains or both quite easy (I play 7 fetchlands), or you can play or GSZ for a mana critter, or you can play duals… And any combination of these options is okay to start the game. Later, mana issues totally disappear.
About Kessig Wolf Run: it's hardly profitable in Punishing Mav. Main reasons:

You don't have so huge amounts of mana (no Cradle)
You are always playing spells, thus investing your mana in better ways
Trample effect is not needed (I also cut the Terravore)
About replacing Tower of the Magistrate: I don't play it, but if I had to choose between Tower and Run, I'd say shutting off equipments for :1: is much better than spending a lot of mana for a pump effect. Similar conclusion for a comparison with my colorless lands (2 Wasteland, 1 Bojuka Bog and 1 Maze of Ith). If I had space, I'll just increase the number of Wasteland.

Esper3k
11-09-2011, 09:23 AM
@Esper3k: I’m really surprised you’re doing bad against Junk and Bant, I can just think you’re doing something wrong. Honestly, my actual matchup against them is something like 70-30 among 20+ games. Right yesterday evening, my opponent attacked with a 7/7 KotR, played another one and passed. EoT I tapped Groove and replaced Fire to my hand. In my turn, I fetched for Bojuka Bog (I play one maindeck) with my KotR and fried both his 2/2 KotR with Punishing Fire + Punishing Fire :wink:

I think PFires is fine against decks with lots of smaller guys, but against Junk / Bant, again my experience is that it's not that great, especially against Junk where pretty much the only thing you can kill is Bob. Against the NO Bant lists, Pfires is also pretty abyssmal.

In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.

Morte
11-09-2011, 01:25 PM
I think PFires is fine against decks with lots of smaller guys, but against Junk / Bant, again my experience is that it's not that great, especially against Junk where pretty much the only thing you can kill is Bob. Against the NO Bant lists, Pfires is also pretty abyssmal.

As I said, one of my worst concerns, with GW Mav against Junk, was the inability to remove an early Bob - quite common situation, since they often start with T1 Thoughtsize hitting your eventual Swords to Plowshares. With Fire it's another story.

Against NO Bant it's even better: removing Hierarchs and Dryad Arbor slows them down and improves your race, which is very useful in this matchup (not to say it's your only hope against the Hydra, especially pre-board). Sometimes they can find themselves without any disposable green critter and a useless NO stuck in their hand.

Anyway, I'm not sure to get your point: even if you think that the improvement of Punishing Fire is not dramatic in these matchups, I suppose you recognize that these matchups are improved by Punishing Fire
(I.E. that the pros of Fire are greater than the cons of the manabase).
So, what concept are you trying to communicate?


In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.

Nein, he was an unknown opponent found on Cockatrice. Bog maindeck is often unexpected, and can be a very bad surprise :wink:

lordofthepit
11-09-2011, 02:41 PM
In your example, if this was your opponent who you played 20+ games against, then he was definitely playing incorrectly (unless you had hidden the maindeck Bog until that game). You clearly had an onboard active Knight + Pfires in your yard with Grove and he should've seen that coming and kept his active Knight back instead of attacking with it.

Doesn't matter. He could have led with Punishing Fires on both Knights, then fetched Bog.

Esper3k
11-09-2011, 04:00 PM
Anyway, I'm not sure to get your point: even if you think that the improvement of Punishing Fire is not dramatic in these matchups, I suppose you recognize that these matchups are improved by Punishing Fire
(I.E. that the pros of Fire are greater than the cons of the manabase).
So, what concept are you trying to communicate?

No, I think Punishing Fires is an improvement in other matchups (I actually like your list quite a bit), but not in the Junk / NO Bant matchups. Sorry if I was unclear on that. In the NO Bant matchup, for example, I think Batterskull+Exalted/Sword is pretty key to surviving a resolved Progenitus. Having a big Lifelink attacker to race Progenitus is how I've won many games against them.


Doesn't matter. He could have led with Punishing Fires on both Knights, then fetched Bog.

Good catch, I missed that.

Koby
11-09-2011, 04:14 PM
Yes, I agree - having Batterskull is something I would miss. Terravore too. Being able to break apart the mirror with Terravore is much more relevant than killing Hierarchs/SFM ad nauseum.

I generally found that the deck that run Dark Confidant typically don't run too many other creatures. SFM, Snapcaster Mage, Clique, maybe Spellstutters, and Goyfs. I don't think they run more than 16 creatures, and if it's that many, they are generally smaller than 3/3. In that sense, I don't care that Bob lives (although I still try to kill him ASAP). Of the decks that play Dark Confidant:
1. BW Deadguy
2. BUG mid-range w/ Jace
3. Esper America

I'm more worried about resolving Thrun, Mom, and KotR; then being able to tutor up QPM as needed to nuke equipment. In these matchups is exactly where I need to see Sylvan Library, and Batterskull to ignore targetted removal. EsperBlade sometimes doesn't even run FoW which makes everything that doesn't cost 2 mana resolve. I am honestly more worried about Jace TMS in these matchups than I am concerned in killing Dark Confidant.

The opportunity cost of running Punishing Fire means that you have to cut creatures. Of the creatures both decks run:

4 Noble Hierarch/BoP
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger

Additionally, most of the Red Mav lists also run Life from the Loam as an admission of the weaker manabase. That's an additional threat that the deck does not run. I don't consider Punishing Fire to be a threat in the strict sense. Ultimately, I feel that the strength of Maverick and what makes it so good against Blue is that its ability to ignore random counters and grind out games with its high threat density. Punishing Fire, while being able to bridge the time until a threat is drawn, does not make that plan better.

I prefer using Terravore, Thrun, and 2nd copies of Scryb Ranger and ScavOoze in place of more removal. I also prefer having a strict 2 color manabase and being able to ignore Wasteland shenanigans.

Like I've said before: to be successful with Maverick means having a healthy paranoia of Wasteland.

Esper3k
11-09-2011, 04:34 PM
I also like Thrun and multiple Qasalis. I do admit the Qasalis may be a mental crutch for me, but I really like having 6-7 Exalted guys and multiple ways to deal with artifact / enchantments.

damionblackgear
11-09-2011, 04:43 PM
The match-up isn't really improved all that much, if at all. They're bringing in removal against you so having the burn makes you more reliant on it as your creatures will probably be dying. Typical lists go from somewhere between 7-10 removal spells to 12-16. Some of those are all out sweepers to get around Mom's protection.

They want the game to take longer, they can generate a better position (usually holding a Deed over your head while they force you to sacrifice forces). In some lists, Liliana is also being used now which can make generating advantage from the fire combo difficult as you'll be spending the mana to either burn her out, or keep a card in hand.

Yes, you can try and burn them out but they are also using ooze now, which after 1 creature, requires 2 Fires to kill. Keeping open green (to grow it further or remove the Fire) isn't an issue when you're aware of the situation. So, sometimes, you'll only get one shot with the fire.

An opponent's knowledge of their deck matters when testing. A person who's never played the deck before is not the same as a person who's well practiced with it. I would say test it out against someone who you know to be familiar with the deck and more of it's actual play style, if possible. Granted, the first time you bog them it may be a surprise but, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to assume you have a Bog once they see a Knight.

I'm with, Esper3k. The correct swing was 0 Knights. That way if you do what you tried, they can either sac a land after or bog you as well. That would've made sure that both Knights were out of range of a single Fire (or two if they wasted their own land). it should've have been a difficult play to see since you had a Grove with a fire in the yard. They could have also been able to deal with your Knight which could no longer risk being on the assault (your bog having been used). The next turn, it's 2;1 on Knights and they're chances of topdecking removal are much better than your chances. If you don't do your play, they swing the next turn with a knight up to deal with any tricks you come up with (I'm assuming their Knight's were bigger than yours.

That deck is designed to be defensive. The only offensive action that should be taken is defensive aggression (unless it's to win the game). The entire deck is designed to be reactively proactive (I know, it sounds funny but, it is). Swinging creatures blindly into what should be considered a threat (your Knight) is not the way that deck is supposed to be played.

@lordofthepit - It does matter since if that was the option to bog is still available with the Fire, or its trigger, on the stack (his knight fetched Bog and can't be used to get a second Grove). Losing 1 Knight (you Fire --> you recur --> they Bog --> you Bog --> 1 Knight dies) is better than both. Sometimes, a sacrifice must be made. Either way, the best thing you could do is try to land the Fire on both, then fetch the bog. That way there is no way to save whatever got hit.

-----

I can't say that it's better in either matchup since the Bant matchup could be running Stifle alongside their Knights (which may also have a bog main). Them stifling your bog, or Knight trigger would be all the more devastating. Even countering the Fire would force your plan to fail.

* you all finished while I was writing this.

Morte
11-09-2011, 06:14 PM
@lordofthepit - It does matter since if that was the option to bog is still available with the Fire, or its trigger, on the stack (his knight fetched Bog and can't be used to get a second Grove). Losing 1 Knight (you Fire --> you recur --> they Bog --> you Bog --> 1 Knight dies) is better than both. Sometimes, a sacrifice must be made. Either way, the best thing you could do is try to land the Fire on both, then fetch the bog. That way there is no way to save whatever got hit.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to say, but lordofthepit is right: if you shoot a Fire to each of the # KotR, let them resolve so each KotR is dealt 2 damages, and then put Bog into play, as the CIP ability of the Bog resolves and opponent's graveyard is removed all KotR's toughness becomes 0 and they die, no matter what land sacking effect anybody put on the stack.

Esper3k
11-09-2011, 06:31 PM
Yeah what your opponent really should've done is fetched up a Wasteland instead of attacking and killed your Grove, heh.

Morte
11-09-2011, 06:35 PM
That's right. Underestimating the Burnwillows is a fatal mistake :wink:

Esper3k
11-09-2011, 06:41 PM
That's right. Underestimate the Burnwillows is a fatal mistake :wink:

I concur! I used to play a lot of Big Zoo + Punishing Fires and it was just hilarious against other aggro decks.

damionblackgear
11-09-2011, 10:04 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to say, but lordofthepit is right: if you shoot a Fire to each of the # KotR, let them resolve so each KotR is dealt 2 damages, and then put Bog into play, as the CIP ability of the Bog resolves and opponent's graveyard is removed all KotR's toughness becomes 0 and they die, no matter what land sacking effect anybody put on the stack.

Yes, lordofthepit and I said the same thing, "land the Fire on both (2 damage on both), then fetch the bog."

My point was your Fire's recursion triggers. In doing so, it allows for your opponent to fetch their own Bog, removing your Fire before it can be recurred. That means they they lose one Knight and both Side's Bog's are spent.

Again, this is all assuming they did the right thing and didn't swing.

Qweerios
11-09-2011, 11:15 PM
I have been hopping back and forth from the Rock and Mav forums with this Junk deck that I now play for a few months. This deck has seen many top 4s in local and weekly tournaments. I don't know if it is more of a Junk, Rock, or Mav deck but I feel it is closer to Mav simply because of the presence of mana dorks, SFM, GSZ, and the absence of Hymn and Goyf.


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (14)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence


What is most notable about this version is:

-It is very strong against combo decks (Won 9/10 of my best of 3s);
-It has a lot of removal and finding the right answers at the right time is relatively easy;
-It has a strong mid and late game

Some of the downsides of traditional GW mav include:

-Slightly more vulnerable manabase (beware of stifle!), although, consistently fetching for basics is not a problem.
-Isn't as good in the mirror. Mother of Runes and Mirran Crusader are troublesome.

I have put a lot of testing and effort into the sideboard and it has been very consistent. Against Combo decks I can comfortably side out the entire SFM package in favor of combo hate while against more common aggro and aggro-control decks I can simply remove the more useless cards from the maindeck in favor of added removal.

A point I feel strongly about is the importance of SoLaS. I used to play SoFaF instead and I have never truly taken advantage of it except against combo decks when I couldn't side out the entire SFM package and SoFaF became the best SFM target. Protection from white is very relevant against decks packing StP, Dismember, and Snapcaster, especially if they also pack PtE in the SB as lots of Stoneblade decks do. A single swing from a SoLaS on a control player is a lot of pressure when you begin taking back countered or killed Bobs, SFM, Pridemage, and most importantly, Eternal Witness from your graveyard. Recurring Witnesses grabing Vindicates, Wastelands, and Swords to Plowshares has often sealed the deal in long attrition games against various Jace.dec.

Also, avoiding Vindicate because it is "clunky" is a mistake. In a deck packing 8 T1 mana dorks and 4 Wastelands, a T2 Vindicate is anything but clunky. Vindicate shines most against Combo on their fragile manabase and as Creature/Equipment/Planeswalker removal against most popular board-controlling decks where it complements StP and Pridemage beautifully.

My toughest matchups so have been NO/Pattern Combo and RUG Tempo. Pattern combo is difficult to hate since they get to choose if they want to kill you via their graveyard or Progenitus. Establishing a hateful board against them is very difficult, hence the Mindcensors in the SB. Decks packing Snapcaster alongside Lightning Bolts, Spell Snare, and Stifle are very hard to outlast because their hate and card advantage is persistent throughout the entire early to midgame phases.

Any suggestions for improvement?

Al-ucard
11-10-2011, 03:14 AM
I have been hopping back and forth from the Rock and Mav forums with this Junk deck that I now play for a few months. This deck has seen many top 4s in local and weekly tournaments. I don't know if it is more of a Junk, Rock, or Mav deck but I feel it is closer to Mav simply because of the presence of mana dorks, SFM, GSZ, and the absence of Hymn and Goyf.


Creatures (20)
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (14)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence


What is most notable about this version is:

-It is very strong against combo decks (Won 9/10 of my best of 3s);
-It has a lot of removal and finding the right answers at the right time is relatively easy;
-It has a strong mid and late game

Some of the downsides of traditional GW mav include:

-Slightly more vulnerable manabase (beware of stifle!), although, consistently fetching for basics is not a problem.
-Isn't as good in the mirror. Mother of Runes and Mirran Crusader are troublesome.

I have put a lot of testing and effort into the sideboard and it has been very consistent. Against Combo decks I can comfortably side out the entire SFM package in favor of combo hate while against more common aggro and aggro-control decks I can simply remove the more useless cards from the maindeck in favor of added removal.

A point I feel strongly about is the importance of SoLaS. I used to play SoFaF instead and I have never truly taken advantage of it except against combo decks when I couldn't side out the entire SFM package and SoFaF became the best SFM target. Protection from white is very relevant against decks packing StP, Dismember, and Snapcaster, especially if they also pack PtE in the SB as lots of Stoneblade decks do. A single swing from a SoLaS on a control player is a lot of pressure when you begin taking back countered or killed Bobs, SFM, Pridemage, and most importantly, Eternal Witness from your graveyard. Recurring Witnesses grabing Vindicates, Wastelands, and Swords to Plowshares has often sealed the deal in long attrition games against various Jace.dec.

Also, avoiding Vindicate because it is "clunky" is a mistake. In a deck packing 8 T1 mana dorks and 4 Wastelands, a T2 Vindicate is anything but clunky. Vindicate shines most against Combo on their fragile manabase and as Creature/Equipment/Planeswalker removal against most popular board-controlling decks where it complements StP and Pridemage beautifully.

My toughest matchups so have been NO/Pattern Combo and RUG Tempo. Pattern combo is difficult to hate since they get to choose if they want to kill you via their graveyard or Progenitus. Establishing a hateful board against them is very difficult, hence the Mindcensors in the SB. Decks packing Snapcaster alongside Lightning Bolts, Spell Snare, and Stifle are very hard to outlast because their hate and card advantage is persistent throughout the entire early to midgame phases.

Any suggestions for improvement?

To improve tempo match, play less double colored cards like vindicate (knight is 4 off, no discusion) and reduce your cc. Also with less green creatures GSZ is not so good so I will start reducing this 2 cards. Then I think I will play 4 or 0 Discard.

Maëlig
11-10-2011, 05:46 AM
Any suggestions for improvement?
Play MoR. It's one of the best cards in classic maverick lists, and it gets even better when you're running bob. I would probably go - 1 witness - 1 SFM - 1 vindicate (I agree the card is great here, but with 4 KotR and 4 GSZ your curve is already quite high) - 1 land (22 should be enough with 8 birds) + 4 MoR. I would also run SoFaF over SoLaS but I guess that's more of a personal choice. Looks very solid otherwise.
Oh, and is hierarch really better than birds in a heavily splashed list? Just wondering, I don't have any definitive opinion on that yet.

I agee PF is kind of lackluster vs junk despite hitting bob, but it's really not that bad vs bant imo. It doesn't just kill hierarch / dryad, but in fact every single creature they're playing outside of KotR and progenitus in the NO variants (which are worse atm and should see less play). A recurring way to handle clique and even SFM or snapcaster (which can be dangerous equipped) is nothing to sneer at. It's also great vs jace. I would argue that it's actually one of the key cards in the MU.

Esper3k
11-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Just wondering - how is your list considerably better against combo?

Maindeck, it looks like you just gain 2 Thoughtseize at the cost of Mindcensors?

Qweerios
11-10-2011, 11:43 AM
The Vindicates have been really good against combo, especially after they brainstorm away lands they don't need. Wastelands and Vindicates buy me enough time to get a lock piece. Bob also becomes valuable after 1-2 land destruction spells. I can also fetch Witness to add more land destruction when I hit 4 mana. G1 is the hardest obviously.

bakofried
11-11-2011, 02:07 PM
So tonight I'll be playing, essentially, the list that got 5th at Ovinosex. Levin's been pushing it quite a bit, so I figured I'd give it a whirl. For those unaware, here's the list:
Artifacts:
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures:
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Scryb Ranger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
Enchantments:
2x Sylvan Library
Instants:
4x Swords to Plowshares
Legendary Artifacts:
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Legendary Creatures:
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
Sorceries:
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Basic Lands:
2x Forest
1x Plains
Lands:
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Land Creatures:
1x Dryad Arbor
Legendary Lands:
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
Sideboard:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Choke
2x Krosan Grip
1x Gaddock Teeg

So, thoughts? It's a generic enough list, without many personal touches, I think it's a nice start for a relatively unknown meta.

Esper3k
11-11-2011, 05:04 PM
I think the list is fine - I'd really like to fit at least 1 Scavenging Ooze maindeck somewhere though. That guy is just too amazing with GSZ + Cradle.

bakofried
11-11-2011, 08:26 PM
Oh shit I forgot to add him. Yeah, he's in there, human error.

Koby
11-11-2011, 08:48 PM
Hey check this out!

Feature match @ SCG Vegas (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgvegas-leg-rd6b-jacob-kory-vs-bryan-hawley-5729342)

Esper3k
11-12-2011, 12:01 AM
Nice! Did you consider getting Ooze at any point to just eat away his yard?

Koby
11-12-2011, 12:08 AM
Nope, with Mom out and that Bog played out, my Knight was bigger than his. Someone asked me why I didn't attack with Knight when I equipped it to the Scryb Ranger. I couldn't give the knight pro:green against his Hierarchs and I only had 2 mana to move the sword around. Evasion ftw!

Report is up (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22585-6th-at-SCG-Vegas-Maverick-Cultural-Wasteland).

Esper3k
11-13-2011, 10:35 AM
So at our local Legacy tournament yesterday, I wanted to give Rukcus's 1-of Gaea's Cradle a spin and man... I loved it!

There were so many times when I caught my opponents with "surprise - buttsex!" when I'd fetch up an Ooze and decimate their yard or use it to immediately drop equipment and equip it after playing a SFM that turn, it was insane.

Here's the list I ran:

// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Plains (3)
2 [CHK] Forest (1)
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [A] Savannah
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [JGC] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [COM] Mother of Runes
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M10] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

Some explanation on my maindeck Canonists and sideboard - there's a guy who plays High Tide in our meta (you know who you are!) and I typically run into him at some point at the top tables, so I wanted to actually have a chance against him. I haven't been finding that I've been usually having much problems with the other decks in our meta, so that's why I have so much storm combo hate. The Metamorphs are because we also tend to have Progenitii and Emrakuls running around, so I wanted to have 3 instead of the normal 1 + 2 tutors.

Of course, this weekend, he wasn't playing High Tide at all...

Canonists have been interesting. Sometimes they have been great against Snapcasters, but other times, they've been mediocre. If you have an active Mother, they are nuts, but otherwise, I think they just get Lightning Bolted, then the tempo deck just moves on.

Morte
11-13-2011, 12:32 PM
I’m preparing for a big tournament and I’d like a review of my sideboard matrix.

This is my updated list:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Red Elemental Blast


Now, a brainstorming of how I would side against the meta:

Reanimator (frequency: high)

+1 Path to Exile
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Gaddock Teeg

Thorn of Amethyst can be useful here?


Canadian (frequency: high)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Thorn of Amethyst can be useful here?


Dredge (frequency: high)

+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-1 Mother of Runes


Maverick (frequency: high)

+1 Path to Exile
-1 Gaddock Teeg


Blade Control (frequency: high)

+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Aven Mindcensor


Merfolk (frequency: high)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Aven Mindcensor
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow


ANT/TES (frequency: med)

+2 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Stony Silence

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Maze of Ith


Spiral Tide (frequency: med)

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Thorn of Amethyst
+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Maze of Ith


NO RUG/Bant (frequency: med)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-2 Scavenging Ooze


Bant Aggro (frequency: med)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow


Hive Mind (frequency: med)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Stony Silence
+1 Thorn of Amethyst

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Maze of Ith

Ethersworn Canonist can be useful here?


Team America (frequency: med)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Thorn of Amethyst can be useful here?


Sneak & Tell (frequency: med)

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence
+1 Thorn of Amethyst

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Punishing Fire


Landeed (frequency: med)

+3 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Aven Mindcensor


Comments & suggestions are highly appreciated :smile:

Julian23
11-13-2011, 12:57 PM
In case you haven't tried it, bring in Ethersworn Canonist against Dredge. It really slows them down more than you'd expect. And definitely bring them in against Hive Mind. It allows you to Krosan Grip or QPM their Hive Mind during your turn. If you Krosan Grip it during your Upkeep they won't even be able to fire off a Pact during your turn.x

Fatal
11-13-2011, 02:08 PM
Boarding out SoLaS in Blade Control, Bants, RUG's is mistake..

Esper3k
11-13-2011, 03:06 PM
I think against Reanimator you want the tutors in as well since its one of those decks where you have to have a fast answer even though you may be card disadvantaging yourself.

Koby
11-13-2011, 03:08 PM
Boarding out Thrun against any storm combo is also appropriate. The card does nothing to help the matchup, and it better utilized by hate bears for a quicker clock.



Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Red Elemental Blast


Now, a brainstorming of how I would side against the meta:

Reanimator (frequency: high)

+1 Path to Exile
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Gaddock Teeg

I normally do this:
+2 E-tutor
+1 Path to Exile
+1 Metamorph
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Thorns of Amethyst
+1 Tormod's Crypt

-1 Thrun
-(1 or 2) SFM
-1 SoFI
-1 Jitte
-(1 or 2) QPM (leaving 1 main)
-(1 or 2) Sylvan Library
-1 Gaddock Teeg

With your deck, I would consider taking out Punishing Fire too, since it doesn't deal with any of the relevant reanimation targets that you would otherwise have to worry about.

vs Team America you want to keep SFM package in, as they have few ways to deal with artifacts. Playing around Deed also helps.

RogueMTG
11-13-2011, 08:00 PM
I split a top-4 at a local event on Saturday. (Winning $150+ store credit :D)

I beat Bant Aggro, BUG Control, Metal Worker MUD, and Junk. Lost to mono-red burn on a savage punt in game three.

This was my list:
Main:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wasteland

3 Noble Hierarch
1 Bird of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridmage
1 Scavaging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:

3 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Path to Exile
3 Choke
1 Life from the Loam
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sword of Light and Shadow


In this case I made an (incorrect) meta call to not care about combo at all.

Luckily I managed to dodge all of the Storm/Belcher players that did actually show up, and I believe most of them were knocked out of this winners bracket early on.

Don't remember enough for a full report, but some general comments:

Elspeth has been amazing for me, I think 1x is probably correct. She's won probably 8 games over 2 tournaments for me on her own. A few of which she was my only hope.

Maze of Ith has been very "meh" against everything that wasn't Reanimator. I'm going to be trying out Rukcus's Gaea's Cradle set-up in the next event I think.

Esper3k
11-13-2011, 11:24 PM
Against Bant decks, do any of you guys have any particular cards or strategies you like to use against them?

privatevendetta
11-14-2011, 08:48 AM
Maze of Ith has been very "meh" against everything that wasn't Reanimator. I'm going to be trying out Rukcus's Gaea's Cradle set-up in the next event I think.

Have you used it to give a creature pseudo vigilance? Attacking with a Knight and pumping it is usually a biggy.

RogueMTG
11-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Have you used it to give a creature pseudo vigilance? Attacking with a Knight and pumping it is usually a biggy.

Yes, but it hasn't really come about often enough to be relevant. More often than not my Knights have been better spent knocking out duals, generating mana, drawing cards, or swinging for the win. Fetching a maze has never really come up as my optimal line of play on any given turn.

Although I do admit I've only been jamming Maverick for two or three events. So my sample size may be off.

Koby
11-14-2011, 01:48 PM
There were so many times when I caught my opponents with "surprise - buttsex!" when I'd fetch up an Ooze and decimate their yard or use it to immediately drop equipment and equip it after playing a SFM that turn, it was insane.


That's exactly why I love it! It enables a huge acceleration for GSZ, Equipment, or Scavenging Ooze.

Shifting gears--
Has anyone tried Surgical Extraction recently? How has it performed? Is it worth board in against Tempo decks?

KobeBryan
11-14-2011, 05:01 PM
That's exactly why I love it! It enables a huge acceleration for GSZ, Equipment, or Scavenging Ooze.

Shifting gears--
Has anyone tried Surgical Extraction recently? How has it performed? Is it worth board in against Tempo decks?

surgical works wonders when it resolves a goyf in the grave.

They will literally have no threats against you.

Esper3k
11-14-2011, 05:34 PM
That's exactly why I love it! It enables a huge acceleration for GSZ, Equipment, or Scavenging Ooze.

Shifting gears--
Has anyone tried Surgical Extraction recently? How has it performed? Is it worth board in against Tempo decks?

I've been experimenting with a ETutorless sideboard (focusing it more on specific matchups).

I've liked Extraction and like Extraction / Extirpate effects in general against Tempo Thresh decks. They run so few threats, if you can catch a Delver or ideally a Goyf with it, you can really do a number on them.

However, in Maverick it's a little tougher to do since most of our removal (even post board when we bring in Paths) tends to Exile, so you oftentimes won't actually have a target in the yard to get. Still, I could see it being useful against the Snapcaster builds.

I like Extraction more against graveyard decks like Dredge or Reanimator, where we don't always have a chance to get an Ooze or Knight online before they go off / get out of control.

Koby
11-14-2011, 05:39 PM
Those are good points regarding Maverick's removal. It might make more sense in Fire/Maves, but I doubt that build even needs the extra help against Tempo.

Esper3k
11-14-2011, 05:57 PM
Those are good points regarding Maverick's removal. It might make more sense in Fire/Maves, but I doubt that build even needs the extra help against Tempo.

Yeah, my experience against Tempo is that they really have to have a pretty nutty hand on the play to beat us, especially post board.

Paths (which are hilarious because all their lists are so greedy and don't run any basics) and Choke especially have been pretty awesome against them for me.

testing32
11-14-2011, 06:16 PM
People are wondering what this deck can do to increase the win % against Canadian Thresh so I thought I would add my two cents.

I think SoF&I over batterskull is the right call. It wreck this deck and the chances of playing a SFM, it resolving, the search not getting stifled, it living until your next turn then you being able to use it with the germ not getting stifled are slim to none. You aren't going to hard cast it b/c of waste and stifle either. Since merfolks popularity has taken a beating i think it's safe to drop batterskull.

Lower the curve. Eternal witness, Thrun and Elspeth need to be cut or moved to sb. I think 2x ooze is also the right call.

More basics. I plan on cutting karakas for a plains to increase my basic count to 5. Karakas getting wasted comes up a lot more often than living the dream of bouncing a S&T emrakuul. When hivemind was popular it was required but no longer.

SBs needs to change. 4x path is a good first step. The latest iterations are running 0 basics so you can get full value off this. The way thresh wins most of their games is by playing a delver and keeping you off balance long enough to kill you. With 8 removal post board and playing around daze that should be difficult to do. I'm going to bring my choke count up to 3 as well.

I think that punishing fires it the wrong direction. I have not tested it but between waste, spell snare and stifle I would expect it to have limited impact early game. We already win late game with Knights. I could be completely off base though.

Esper3k
11-14-2011, 06:54 PM
I've actually liked Thrun the couple times I've gotten him against Canadian Thresh. He's bigger than most of their things and with any Exalted or Equipment boosting him, he's going to fight through any Goyf as well.

I'm still a fan of Karakas main, not because of Emrakul decks, but because of Reanimator.

Jitte is still my favorite equipment against them. Once you get it active, you really cause a lot of problems for that deck.

_erbs_
11-14-2011, 10:51 PM
@vs UGR Thresh
Running Red mav has its benefits against them as you can control there lavamancer and delver but the problem is getting there or being able to survive all the tempo cards like stifle, snare, daze, wasteland etc. in general mav's cruve is at 3 and a STF being stifled is pretty bad as without equips your are creatures are whimpy or can't do decent damage expect for maybe ooze and kotr. i really feel that the MU against ugr thresh is a game of luck of some sort. If your mother goes online and they have no early creature you might get to mid game and stabilize and win the game.

This is one of the reason why i posted a list that runs vial and based on my playtesting running both vial and gsz at the same time is not such a good thing but running vials has its benefit over gsz. right now im leaning towards vial build over gsz and not relying too much on equips. It would seem a step backwards but analyze the meta and do more playtesting on vial builds and im sure you'll see its benefits.

Koby
11-15-2011, 12:21 AM
Suppose we do end up cutting the equipment and SFM for 5 other cards (leaving Jitte in ofc). We could board into:

2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Maze of Ith

Thoughts?

This could next-level their SB plans for Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge. This matchup is where I might also want Sylvan Safekeeper.

berry
11-15-2011, 06:26 AM
You still SB Grips against Maverick since you are well aware of the Chokes coming in.

As a Can-Thresh player I can say that Maverick is a helluva hard MU - Knights, Chokes, SOFI, Ooze... I dunno why you're trying to figure the MU out!

Esper3k
11-15-2011, 08:42 AM
Suppose we do end up cutting the equipment and SFM for 5 other cards (leaving Jitte in ofc). We could board into:

2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
1 Maze of Ith

Thoughts?

This could next-level their SB plans for Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge. This matchup is where I might also want Sylvan Safekeeper.

I think Pridemages and Teeg do less in this matchup and should be boarded out first? While they may bring in artifact destruction for our equipment, I think equipment is too powerful to take out. If they don't have the immediate answer, they're pretty boned.

Koby
11-15-2011, 11:30 AM
I think Pridemages and Teeg do less in this matchup and should be boarded out first? While they may bring in artifact destruction for our equipment, I think equipment is too powerful to take out. If they don't have the immediate answer, they're pretty boned.

I'm mostly concerned about Stifle on SFM which turns it into a useless creature. I like Jitte to remain since it can take control of the game, but SoFI and Batterskull seem too expensive with all the LD components Tempo runs. Perhaps -3 SFM -1 Batterskull to put in more removal and Chokes.

I like Pridemage strictly for the beatdown element. At worst, it's another body, and the Exalted triggers are important.

Gaddock Teeg is important IMO - it stops Force of Will and Submerge. I expect their deck to board out Force of Will, but Submerge is a big big nuisance. If we start to run Sylvan Safekeeper, then it seems justified in taking out.

Esper3k
11-15-2011, 12:02 PM
I'm mostly concerned about Stifle on SFM which turns it into a useless creature. I like Jitte to remain since it can take control of the game, but SoFI and Batterskull seem too expensive with all the LD components Tempo runs. Perhaps -3 SFM -1 Batterskull to put in more removal and Chokes.

I like Pridemage strictly for the beatdown element. At worst, it's another body, and the Exalted triggers are important.

Gaddock Teeg is important IMO - it stops Force of Will and Submerge. I expect their deck to board out Force of Will, but Submerge is a big big nuisance. If we start to run Sylvan Safekeeper, then it seems justified in taking out.

Yeah, for me I haven't liked Pridemages in this matchup because while it's another body, it's one that can't block anything. I don't actually think Exalted is that important in this particular matchup. Of course it's nice, but I think we're typically going to win through Knight / Ooze beatdown or through getting in there with equipped dudes.

Stifle on SFM really does suck, but again, for me, I think our Equipment does too much of a number on them to take out. I really like SoFI as well since it's another way for us to deal with Delvers (which I find as the most problematic card in this matchup other than the builds that run Lavamancers).

I forgot about Teeg stopping Submerge. I was just thinking that in this matchup, we're generally ok with them Forcing our stuff since they're 2 for 1ing themselves whereas Teeg is another terrible body that doesn't really do anything. I guess the question for me is then if it's worth stopping Submerge (which I just consider another removal spell for them) at the cost of stopping our own GSZ?

Maybe do something like -SFM, -Batterskull, +removal, + Choke and leave in all your Swords + Jitte? I've cut Batterskull from my 75 these days to play a SoFF in addition to SoFI and Jitte.

BlackStarDeceiver
11-15-2011, 01:35 PM
If you are having serious trouble with Tempo or CB Top, try out 3 Summonung Traps in the board. It might look janky, but with so much blue in the meta they are actually pretty good because they either have to get forced or find somethin a lot scarier then T1 MoR ;)

_erbs_
11-15-2011, 08:47 PM
I guess people are starting to notice what i've have been pointing out in regards to mav is too much dependent on equips and a stf being hit by stifle will hurt mav's aggro power against other creatures. Maybe put back 1-2 tarmo back in the mav's creature list in the traditional GW gsz build.

Currently im still testing the vial build, so far based on my playtesting its less consistent compared to gsz build in the sense when you draw gsz it gives you both options of mana or beater while drawing vial just provides you mana in some sense, thats the greatest in consistency with vial builds, but vial provides you a better creature list in form of serra avenger and tarmo atleast in my list.

@summoning traps
its true that blue are rampant in the meta but i feel summoning trap just opens you for a in coming sweeper, blue decks will not board in more counters against mav or aggro decks but rather board in creature control / sweeper cards and board out counter magics.

bakofried
11-17-2011, 07:01 PM
How would one build an E-Tutor sideboard for a generally unknown meta? I expect fair representation of multiple archetypes, with the only semi-known quantity being an enchantress player with Karmic Justice in the side.

Koby
11-17-2011, 07:09 PM
How would one build an E-Tutor sideboard for a generally unknown meta? I expect fair representation of multiple archetypes, with the only semi-known quantity being an enchantress player with Karmic Justice in the side.

I think the whole reason for E-tutor is to be able to answer multiple "unknowns" in the metagame; rather than attack a specific set of known decks.

Anti-Combo
Thorn of Amethyst
Ethersworn Canonist
Null Rod
Stony Silence

Anti-GY
Tormod's Crypt
(but not Relic)
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Ground Seal

Catch-all
Oblivion Ring
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Phyrexian Metamorph
Serenity (Affinity/Enchantress)

Then, sprinkle in some other utility, like Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith (should not be Maindeck), extra removal (PtE), Elspeth, Life from the Loam, and Choke.

I don't consider Choke to be part of the E-tutor package because you normally don't bring in Tutors when you bring in Choke. They are mutually independent against Blue decks.

damionblackgear
11-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Just wondering, has there been any thought to Witchbane Orb? It does the same thing that the white Leyline did and some decks tried that as well (I don't think it turned out too well though). BUT! You can cast it.

I think it could be a possibility but, I think Cannonist would be better against combo than this. At least in limiting their ability to find an answer. I only mention it since it's an artifact that costs 2. So, you can E.tutor for it... Seems like you'd be able to go grab that to fight decks like burn as well. Either way, just a though.

bakofried
11-17-2011, 09:40 PM
Witchbane Orb costs 4.

damionblackgear
11-17-2011, 09:56 PM
Witchbane Orb costs 4.

That explains why I keep convincing myself to look it up again. My bad.

bakofried
11-18-2011, 12:24 AM
How strong is Ethersworn Canonist vs. Enchantress? Does anyone here have experience there? Theoretically, it's quite strong, but in practice?

Koby
11-18-2011, 12:36 AM
It's a whole heck of a lot better than Scaventing Ooze or Goyf. You need to slow them down for a while, Canonist helps with that.

bakofried
11-18-2011, 01:20 AM
Really, I noticed that if their mana production was stunted, I would have plenty of time to swing for the win. Canonist provides a similar function. I'm trying out, essentially, the list Drew Levin has been repping. It seems like a good way to get a feel for the deck.

Esper3k
11-18-2011, 08:24 AM
How strong is Ethersworn Canonist vs. Enchantress? Does anyone here have experience there? Theoretically, it's quite strong, but in practice?

Canonist is pretty strong, better than Teeg as well. It makes it so they can only draw 1 extra card per turn, which really keeps them from going nuts and gives you time to finish them.

Artlee
11-18-2011, 10:25 AM
Canonist is pretty strong, better than Teeg as well. It makes it so they can only draw 1 extra card per turn, which really keeps them from going nuts and gives you time to finish them.
Nitpicking here, but they can actually draw more than one. They just cant cast more than one.

Teeg is quite useless IMO. He only stops Replenish, GSZ and Sigil of the empty throne. By the time opponent is ready to cast Sigil, he has probably already O Ring for Teeg. With that said, I do side him in though, as there are so many dead cards.

Esper3k
11-18-2011, 11:41 AM
Nitpicking here, but they can actually draw more than one. They just cant cast more than one.

Teeg is quite useless IMO. He only stops Replenish, GSZ and Sigil of the empty throne. By the time opponent is ready to cast Sigil, he has probably already O Ring for Teeg. With that said, I do side him in though, as there are so many dead cards.

That's true. I just meant you slow down their engine significantly with it.

Teeg also stops Moat, but yeah he's pretty bad in general, but still better than a straight beater.

Neuad
11-18-2011, 12:43 PM
How strong is Ethersworn Canonist vs. Enchantress? Does anyone here have experience there? Theoretically, it's quite strong, but in practice?

Enchantress is extremely big in my meta game, with atleast 1 every week and as many as 3-4. . Last time we counted we have to ability to bring up to 11 enchantresses with very little money invested between everyone. . .and I think like 7 of those had a Moat. . .but anyway


A mom or sword of light and shadow protected Canonist is your best way to beat Enchantress, unless you want to play really narrow answers like Harmonic Convergence (It gets around Karmic Justice. . build up alpha strike force, EOT or mainphase Harmonic Convergence and swing for the win. . gogo sweet Rbg Goblins sideboard tech) Teeg does slow them down but if they play Words of War they can just ping him eventually. . hopefully you can get a win by then but Elephant Grass will hurt that.

Pridemage is alright, K.Grip is almost useless because they have too many targets, and possibly Karmic Justice, and isn't worth siding in, imo.

Koby
11-18-2011, 12:45 PM
Enchantress is extremely big in my meta game, with atleast 1 every week and as many as 3-4. . Last time we counted we have to ability to bring up to 11 enchantresses with very little money invested between everyone. . .and I think like 7 of those had a Moat. . .but anyway


A mom or sword of light and shadow protected Canonist is your best way to beat Enchantress, unless you want to play really narrow answers like Harmonic Convergence (It gets around Karmic Justice. . build up alpha strike force, EOT or mainphase Harmonic Convergence and swing for the win. . gogo sweet Rbg Goblins sideboard tech) Teeg does slow them down but if they play Words of War they can just ping him eventually. . hopefully you can get a win by then but Elephant Grass will hurt that.

Pridemage is alright, K.Grip is almost useless because they have too many targets, and possibly Karmic Justice, and isn't worth siding in, imo.

Serenity, SoLaS (to recur QPM and pro:O-ring), Canonist, Sylvan Library are important cards in this matchup. StP - not so much.

BlackStarDeceiver
11-18-2011, 04:08 PM
E Tutor with 1 Aura Flux in the board is wonderful :)

bakofried
11-18-2011, 10:13 PM
I'm just curious, has anyone ever considered Avacyn's Pilgrim out of Innistrad? Just a dude who taps for 1 white mana, costs the same as a Llanowar Elf. You lose the exalted, and the ability to tap for green, but he offers a point of power in both defense and swinging in a group. Thoughts?
*as an aside, I have my Nobles. This is not a budget-related question.

Esper3k
11-18-2011, 10:20 PM
I'm just curious, has anyone ever considered Avacyn's Pilgrim out of Innistrad? Just a dude who taps for 1 white mana, costs the same as a Llanowar Elf. You lose the exalted, and the ability to tap for green, but he offers a point of power in both defense and swinging in a group. Thoughts?
*as an aside, I have my Nobles. This is not a budget-related question.

Interesting one to think about, but ultimately I think Noble is still better. My experience with the deck is that oftentimes you're swinging with just one dude while the rest of your guys stay home and play defense or simply aren't worth attacking with, so the Exalted on the Hierarchs make them well worth it.

Water_Wizard
11-19-2011, 02:21 AM
I'm just curious, has anyone ever considered Avacyn's Pilgrim out of Innistrad? Just a dude who taps for 1 white mana, costs the same as a Llanowar Elf. You lose the exalted, and the ability to tap for green, but he offers a point of power in both defense and swinging in a group. Thoughts?
*as an aside, I have my Nobles. This is not a budget-related question.

Also, NH gives you G, which is pretty massive for Ooze, flashing in a Scryb, and most of the cards. I would say def. NH over Pilgrim. If I were to cut NH for anything it would be Birds of Paradise. I currently run 3 NH, 1 BoP, since I am Punishing Fire build and the BoP comes in handy for the R mana and also for the flying.

Water_Wizard
11-19-2011, 02:45 AM
I’m preparing for a big tournament and I’d like a review of my sideboard matrix.

This is my updated list:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Red Elemental Blast



Two questions. I'm currently playing a list similar to your list. I run 2 Taiga and 1 Plateau and No Horizon Canopy. I'm wondering if you ever have problems coming up with red mana for PF or Pyro/REB? I realize Grove gives you 3 more R sources, so that's 5, but all 5 are non-basic and only 2 are fetchable. Especially against the Tempo-Thresh decks with Stifles and WL's, is it hard to keep a R source on the board? BoP helps. Second question - Could someone explain to me the beauty of the 1 Horizon Canopy? In straight GW, I could see running 1, 2, even 3. But in WGr, it seems like I am just taking damage from it. There have been too many opening hands where I have HC as my only W or G source and end up taking 3-5 damage. Very rarely do I KotR for it. I'm usually going for a fetch to thin my deck and pump KotR +2/+2 or grabbing a Bog, Grove, etc. I see how HC is good with LftL, but it seems like a card that doesn't make the cut in GWr. Final question - any GWr players consider a basic mountain? It ups the basic count to 3 and gives a permanent way to cast PF,REB, etc. In regards to PF, if you are using Grove as your only red source, then this removes the 'slow-death' option against control (pinging for 1 life a turn - if you are paying R to return and R to cast, they are gaining 2 life and you are dealing 2 damage, so it's a net, except to eliminate creatures). Thanks Guys!

Water_Wizard
11-19-2011, 04:31 AM
My toughest matchups so have been NO/Pattern Combo and RUG Tempo. Pattern combo is difficult to hate since they get to choose if they want to kill you via their graveyard or Progenitus. Establishing a hateful board against them is very difficult, hence the Mindcensors in the SB. Decks packing Snapcaster alongside Lightning Bolts, Spell Snare, and Stifle are very hard to outlast because their hate and card advantage is persistent throughout the entire early to midgame phases.

Any suggestions for improvement?

I take it you are playing against Jeremie Ross on MTGO? I believe we have a mutual nemesis...muuahaha! He's by far my worse match-up online (1-4), although, ironically, I won the first match (I'm 0-4 since). I played Reanimator twice, U/W Stoneblade, Storm and one other deck - I realize this is a Maverick forum, so I'll keep it related to Maverick, however, he said his deck is usually 30-70 vs. Storm, but he double Cabal Therapied me game 2 (successfully hit 4 times), so that really hurt. Anyway, there is a really good article about how to play NO/Pattern Combo here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21478-Deck-Zenith-Rebirth-Order-(ZeRo)-%97-Flashless-Hulk-Combo&highlight=pattern+of+rebirth and a tournament report here: http://blog.manatalks.com/2011/08/scg-legacy-open-pittsburgh-from-rogue-to-riches/ Reading the tournament report really helped me and there is a section called 'How to Play this Deck' under the primer.
As Maverick players, we have 2 objectives vs. NO/PoR - 1) Get a Teeg in play 2) Handle the graveyard. We'll start with Teeg - if you can get him into play game 1, this shuts down Pattern of Rebirth, Natural Order and GSZ. Games 2/3, you will probably need a MoR or SoLaS or some other form of protection against Slaughter Pact. For objective 2), we can use hard (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Crypt, Bog) or soft (ooze) gy hate. The secret is to get one of these up and active and to remove a key piece of the combo - the combo usually goes, hulk (sac), body double (copy hulk), sac, reveillark and mogg fanatic into play. Sac fanatic and reveillark, bring body double (copying reveillark) and fanatic back into play. So, if you can remove hulk (only on the initial copy with body double) or reveillark, body double, or fanatic, it breaks his combo.
Additionally, you have a few other options. 1) Pithing Needle on Fanatic (he runs Pridemage, so this won't work forever) 2) Leyline of Sanctity (same with Pridemage) 3) Dampening Matrix - I seriously thought about running this - also shuts down SFM/Pridemage - only downside is it costs 3, but it seriously hinders his deck - the only sac outlet becomes Cabal Therapy.
Also, be mindful of nuking his creatures in response to Pattern of Rebirth being played - note, if he uses Rector, it actually places Pattern of Rebirth into play attached to the creature, so this doesn't work (I made this mistake). Aven Mindcensor greatly helps out against this deck. Also, be mindful of the creatures/effects that require 'leave play' vs. 'goes into the graveyard'. Protean Hulk, Academy Rector and Pattern of Rebirth all require the creature to die (hit the yard), so if you remove from game with STP or PTE, no triggered effect. Reveillark, however, is 'leave the battlefield', so that is going to happen if it goes to exile, hand or 'yard. Also, if he draws a Progen, Reveillark or Body Double, he has to get it into his yard, either via Fauna Shaman or Cabal Therapying himself, so be mindful of this (unless he's running Body Snatcher, which most the decks don't appear to be).
Anyway, hope this helps. Knowledge is power. Our best bet as Maverick players is to first land a Teeg and then search out some grave hate before Protean Hulk can hit the board and be sacrificed (he's running some mana accelerators, but without NO/Pattern of Rebirth, it should take him until at least turn 5 - by that time, you should have active KotR with bog or Ooze).

Maëlig
11-19-2011, 05:54 AM
How would one build an E-Tutor sideboard for a generally unknown meta? I expect fair representation of multiple archetypes, with the only semi-known quantity being an enchantress player with Karmic Justice in the side.

Try aura of silence. I had it in the board for some time, it's a very decent tutor-target against a number of archetypes (enchantress, stax if you can slip in the tutor, affinity if it comes down quick enough, storm combo, hive mind), and you can still bring it in without the tutor against stuff like CB-thopter.


Two questions. I'm currently playing a list similar to your list. I run 2 Taiga and 1 Plateau and No Horizon Canopy. I'm wondering if you ever have problems coming up with red mana for PF or Pyro/REB? I realize Grove gives you 3 more R sources, so that's 5, but all 5 are non-basic and only 2 are fetchable. Especially against the Tempo-Thresh decks with Stifles and WL's, is it hard to keep a R source on the board? BoP helps. Second question - Could someone explain to me the beauty of the 1 Horizon Canopy? In straight GW, I could see running 1, 2, even 3. But in WGr, it seems like I am just taking damage from it. There have been too many opening hands where I have HC as my only W or G source and end up taking 3-5 damage. Very rarely do I KotR for it. I'm usually going for a fetch to thin my deck and pump KotR +2/+2 or grabbing a Bog, Grove, etc. I see how HC is good with LftL, but it seems like a card that doesn't make the cut in GWr. Final question - any GWr players consider a basic mountain? It ups the basic count to 3 and gives a permanent way to cast PF,REB, etc. In regards to PF, if you are using Grove as your only red source, then this removes the 'slow-death' option against control (pinging for 1 life a turn - if you are paying R to return and R to cast, they are gaining 2 life and you are dealing 2 damage, so it's a net, except to eliminate creatures). Thanks Guys!

I agree with you that HC doesn't make the cut in GWr lists. I'd rather play more duals or fetches for a more stable manabase. Problem with the basic mountain is that it's rather difficult to fetch and can make some hands unplayable (if we are missing the initial green for a NH for instance). I don't think we should worry too much about our access to red. We have minimum 10 lands producing red (3 grove, 1 plateau 1 taiga, minimum 5 fetches), and we can always GSZ on birds or KotR on a grove. I think that's plenty enough for 3 red cards MD, even though they are quite mana-hungry.

Esper3k
11-19-2011, 09:49 PM
So today, I've been testing Glowriders maindeck instead of the Aven Mindcensor slot.

My problem with Mindcensors is that they just never did enough for my taste. By the time you get them out, your opponents have oftentimes already done the majority of their tutoring / fetching.

I had been testing Canonists main, thinking they would be good against Snapcaster decks, but what tended to end up happening is that they eat a removal spell, Snapcaster gets used anyways and Canonist doesn't really do what we wanted to do.

My theory on Glowrider is that it's more generally useful (such as against control decks or decks that run a lot of spells, ie Tempo Thresh). Costing 3 is both a good and bad thing these days - sure it's more expensive, but it also dodges Spell Snare.

I ended up playing against Elf combo, Bant Aggro, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, then split in the T4.

Against Elf Combo, I was of course really kicking myself for not having Canonists main, but Jitte + our removal ended up being fine. Canonist + Etutors from the board worked great as well.

vs Bant Aggro, the Glowriders got boarded out as they have too many creatures plus Nobles help vs Glowriders.

vs Merfolk, I actually "got" my opponent some G1 when he was tapped out, then I played a Glowrider, which resolved, then a creature, which he tried to then Daze. Those came out postboard.

vs Canadian Thresh: I kept them in as an experiment. I think it's not amazing, but better than the things I took out (@Rukcus: With our discussion, I actually just took out both my Pridemages and the SFM's, leaving in all the equipment to be used naturally). G2, the Glowrider was extremely brutal since I managed to resolve a Choke as well.

This obviously needs more testing, but I thought I'd share my thoughts to bring up a card for discussion.

Koby
11-19-2011, 10:38 PM
vs Canadian Thresh: I kept them in as an experiment. I think it's not amazing, but better than the things I took out (@Rukcus: With our discussion, I actually just took out both my Pridemages and the SFM's, leaving in all the equipment to be used naturally). G2, the Glowrider was extremely brutal since I managed to resolve a Choke as well.


Aside from being able to disrupt C.T. with Choke/Glowrider, did you feel that the deck was still aggressive enough vs them? Did the list run any Grim Lavamancer?

I'm starting to agree with _erbs that the best way to combat CanThresh is with AEther Vial. I don't think this deck wants it however, but G&Taxes uses it for much benefit. I'm just very hesitant to give up on the GSZ engine and its ability to pull out Ooze which is by far the best new card for the deck.

bakofried
11-19-2011, 11:22 PM
From the brief chatter I see on the Tempo Thresh thread, Punishing Fire seems to be a solid way to deal with that MU. Give it another try, perhaps? I'm going to try and hunt down a few Groves.

Esper3k
11-19-2011, 11:22 PM
Aside from being able to disrupt C.T. with Choke/Glowrider, did you feel that the deck was still aggressive enough vs them? Did the list run any Grim Lavamancer?

I'm starting to agree with _erbs that the best way to combat CanThresh is with AEther Vial. I don't think this deck wants it however, but G&Taxes uses it for much benefit. I'm just very hesitant to give up on the GSZ engine and its ability to pull out Ooze which is by far the best new card for the deck.

The list I faced actually was running Lavamancers and Mongoose. Lavamancer I just plowed. Mongoose was a pain because it was blanking all the removal I brought in and I could only finally deal with it when I eventually got a Knight down.

In that matchup, I actually feel we are the control role. They have to Aggro / tempo us out before we stabilize because our mid-game guys (Knights, Thrun, Scavenging Ooze, GSZ) tend to trump their creatures and our removal spells are just better.

264505
11-19-2011, 11:54 PM
Punishing Fire Maverick is the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck in the finals of Worlds. Here's the list:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Purify the Grave
1 Pyroblast
2 Qasali Pridemage

It will end up going head to head with a Sneak and Show deck that the Japanese team is playing.

bakofried
11-19-2011, 11:59 PM
Well, that should be a fun match-up. Go Norway!

Koby
11-20-2011, 05:25 PM
The list looks solid, but my main complaint with the Fires builds right now is that the threat density is low (20 creatures). The only real threats the deck plays are KotR, and everything else is Voltron (assemble pieces together to get a threat).

If anyone is available on MTGO, I'd like to test out the deck more.

Esper3k
11-20-2011, 06:17 PM
That has been my issue with the PFires Maverick as well. Having your Groves get Wastelanded also sucks too. Loam helps, but we generally can't count on getting it.

Morte
11-20-2011, 07:40 PM
I’m just back home after a 126 players tournament in Legnano. First of all, thanks everybody for the feedbacks on my sideboard plan, your help has been precious.

For today, I was expecting a lot of Canadian and Reanimator, and not so many combo. Therefore, I opted for Punishing Maverick, tweaked in this way:

4 Windswepth Heat
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Driad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

I switched my last Horizon Canopy for the 3rd Savannah, agreeing with Water_Wizard and Maëlig, it doesn’t make the cut in Punishing Mav.
Then, even if I’ve always been a great fan of Aven Mindcensor, I cut my last 2 for… 2 Tarmogoyf. I never wanted Goyf in GW Mav, but in Punishing it’s another story: more threats, and cheap ones, just requiring one green, work very well here. The 2x is a meta call, considering that I was expecting a lot of Canadian.

Mini report:


Round 1: Reanimator 2-1

Game 1 on the draw, I topdeck an Ooze but he has Jin-Jitaxian and an Angel of Despair in play before I can do anything. 0-1

+2 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile
+1 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Phyrexian Metamorph
+1 Thorn of Amethyst

-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 Sylvan Library

My hate crashes him 2 times.
1-0-0


Round 2: Junk (without SFM) 2-0

Maybe it’s just my Junk opponents not so good with their deck, but this matchup continues to be very easy for me. Once removed their dark confidant, I never feel any pressure. Side:

+1 Path to Exile
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg

My Sword of Light and Shadow of course is quite nasty, and my knights + Wasteland never let him reach 6 mana for Deed for 3 around my Pridemage.
2-0-0


Round 3: Canadian Threshold 2-0

I easily overwhelm him, as expected. Side:

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Sylvan Library
3-0-0


Round 4: GWb Maverick 2-1

This guy is splashing black for Dark Confidant and Perish (!) in side. Game 1 I cannot deal with his double MoR. Side:

+1 Path to Exile
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg

Game 2 and 3 I StP and burn all his early stuff and then crash him.
4-0-0


Round 5: UWr Blade Control 2-0

Game 1 he removes a lot of my stuff, he has to bounce my only knight with Jace, I fry Jace @ 2 with Punishing Fire and then win. Side:

+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Maze of Hit

(I can see someone suggesting to keep the sword, but Stony Silence is much stronger here, and the SFM package is less useful than the other cards which I didn’t side out to make room for the obvious hate).
Game 2 I attack his manabase while beating. He doesn’t live long enough to cast his Wrath of God...
5-0-0

Whoa! Another one and it’s almost T8! But…


Round 6: UB Dreadnought 1-2

Game 1 I cannot understand what the heck is that. I see countertop, Go for the Troath, Jace, Snapcaster, but also Wasteland and Stifle. Mah? However I win. Side:

+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Ethersworn Canonist (for Snappy)
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Maze of Hit

Game 2 he StP-Perish all my stuff and plays 4 Wastelands in a row (!), killing me with a Snapcaster and Dark Confidant.

Game 3 I start quite well, then he plays Go for the Throat on my Knight and then… Pyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle! I wasn’t expecting the lobster at all, and I die 2 turns later.
5-1-0


Round 7: Canadian 0-2

We were playing in the same table the turn before, so we know the matchup. Game one I keep a hand with Windswepth Heat, Karakas, Dryad Arbor, 2x Mor, StP and Hierarch. Seems not bad; I fetch a Plains but he kills both my MoR, wastes the Karakas, bolts the Arbor and I never draw any other land. Urgh. Again, side:

+2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Choke
+1 Path to Exile

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Sylvan Library

Game 2 I keep a good hand, I don’t remember exactly but I fry a Delver, counter another one (with Pyroblast) and have a 6/6 Knight in play, which he double bolts to survive. But then… I only draw lands (something like 5 in a row…) and die to manaflood.
I’m very disappointed… I’m missing T8 by losing to a very easy matchup. Too bad!
5-2-0


Round 8: Elf Combo 2-1

Oh wow, this is the first time in my life I play this matchup :tongue:
Game 1 he’s quite unlucky, he just draws a Savannah which I waste immediately as I remove his elf, and when he could restart I’m already there with a charged Jitte. Side:

+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Path to Exile

-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Maze of Hit
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2 he glimpses on turn 2 and plays a lot of stuff. When he passes I tutor for Canonist and play it in my 2nd turn. He immediately topdecks a Viridian Shaman (!) and plays Emrakul one turn later.

Game 3 I have an almost perfect match with T1 MoR, T2 Canonist, then SFM into Jitte, Ranger to untap the MoR, a second Canonist…
6-2-0


So I finished 11th and won 4 Maelstrom Pulse. Top 8 was:

1) Canadian
2) Canadian (the guy who beat me on turn 7)
3) BU Dreadnought (the guy who beat me on turn 6)
4) TES (played by a girl! Wow)
5) GWr Maverick
6) Big Zoo (w/Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf)
7) Stone Blade
8) TES

In the end, I can say the deck is strong. It’s a while I’m playing it now and I have to say that the manabase is not an issue. The few times when I’ve been mana-screwed or flooded, it would have been the same if I had played GW. I also had no problem with wasted Grove of the Burnwillows, half of the few times it happened I just fetched for another one with a knight, and anyway even if you’re not recurring it forever, Punishing Fire is still a solid removal.

And, DEFINITELY, if you want the best configuration against Canadian, stop wondering, it’s Punishing Mav.

_erbs_
11-20-2011, 09:28 PM
@Morte
congrats on the strong finish !

how was the rebs on the SB, do you think is it worth the slot, any plans on increasing its count ?

we also have a upcoming tourny in our place i'll post the result after, but i totally revamped the mav list , i think you guys will call me crazy for doing it, but based on playtesting its solid.

Morte
11-21-2011, 08:29 AM
how was the rebs on the SB, do you think is it worth the slot, any plans on increasing its count ?

REB is great. Yesterday I sided in REB in 5/8 of the matches, and lost only to blue – this has no statistical significance ofc, but they say blue rules everywhere… Yes, probably I’ll try to increase the REB number to 3.

I’m also interested in the 2 sideboard Blood Moon (!) of the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck. It seems powerful but really hard to manage with just 2 basics, I can see it as an improved Choke effect, devastating against 3+ colors deck, even if non-blue. Any feedback? When would you side them in?


we also have a upcoming tourny in our place i'll post the result after, but i totally revamped the mav list , i think you guys will call me crazy for doing it, but based on playtesting its solid.

Research & innovation are always welcome! Good luck :smile:

Koby
11-21-2011, 11:21 AM
The Blood Moon idea strikes me as latent potential for Fire Mavs, but as Morte describes, the low level of duals hurts this plan. I do like that Blood Moon ends up being better than Choke across multiple decks.

I was thinking yesterday about an old card that hasn't seen play, which would be just as good against contorl: Winter orb. Maverick is mostly immune by running Scryb Ranger, Noble Hierarch, and KotR to cycle through tapped lands. The issue I see with this, is that KotR should really be finding Wastelands, and at that point Winter Orb won't be as effective against opponents with 1-3 lands.

Thoughts?

Water_Wizard
11-21-2011, 07:21 PM
I was thinking yesterday about an old card that hasn't seen play, which would be just as good against contorl: Winter orb. Maverick is mostly immune by running Scryb Ranger, Noble Hierarch, and KotR to cycle through tapped lands. The issue I see with this, is that KotR should really be finding Wastelands, and at that point Winter Orb won't be as effective against opponents with 1-3 lands.

Thoughts?
Good idea! What control decks would you board it in against? U/W Stoneblade? Against this deck, Choke seems like a better option. Plus, Choke dodges Spell Snare. I only play online, but it seems like I run into a lot of WG/WGr Maverick, U/W Stoneblade, URG Tempo and Burn. For me, Choke seems like a better option. I'm curious to see what in your meta your plan to board Orb against.
There is a dissynergy wit Dryad Arbor and an awesome synergy with SoFaF and to a lesser degree Gaea's Cradle and Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger (as you mention above). I think the inclusion of Orb in the sb calls for at least an additional Ranger in the md. Also, Maze of Ith probably moves out of the board due to dissynergies with Orb.
Orb is not an answer for Punishing Mav decks, as the Punishing engine is too mana intensive. Punishing Mav crushes URG Tempo, as bakofried and Morte note above. Punishing Fire kills Insects, Lavamancer and Snapcaster. Goyf and Nimble Mongoose are no match for KotR on the ground. A lot of times, they can't even touch your KotR with Lightning Bolt or Dismember. With Bog/Ooze, you can make 'Gofy, Mongoose small or disrupt Snapcaster. I've been able to kill 'Gofy with PF and selective graveyard removal. However, I have lost to Tempo a few times - mainly due to mana issues and a few amazing draws by my opponent. For the mana, as Ruckus points out, it's important to get your basics on board - I misplayed a few of the early games and suffered to some 3-wasteland 2-stifle draws by my opponent.

Water_Wizard
11-21-2011, 07:35 PM
Round 5: UWr Blade Control 2-0

Game 1 he removes a lot of my stuff, he has to bounce my only knight with Jace, I fry Jace @ 2 with Punishing Fire and then win. Side:

+2 Choke
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Stony Silence

-2 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Sword of Light and Shadow
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Maze of Hit

(I can see someone suggesting to keep the sword, but Stony Silence is much stronger here, and the SFM package is less useful than the other cards which I didn’t side out to make room for the obvious hate).
Game 2 I attack his manabase while beating. He doesn’t live long enough to cast his Wrath of God...
5-0-0


I run a deck similar to yours. The first thing I remove against U/W Stoneblade is Swords to Plowshares. I usually go -4 STP, -1 Karakas/Teeg (I keep Teeg if I expect WOG/Jace/Elspeth, although he slows down our GSZ and a lot of time they take out FOW. Karakas protects our Thrun (bounce him to WOG), but doesn't help out against their deck - I'm not going to bounce their Clique) +2 REB, +1 Thrun, +2 Choke. I find PF is fine for handling Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Clique, etc. I'm not going to STP these small guys or Batterskull. I run 2 Pridemage main (found I was putting the 2nd in every game, so I just left it in). I'll post my decklist later so we can discuss, but it's your 75 +/- 4 or 5 cards. Also, I put the Horizon Canopy in (currently 2 Savannah, 1 Taiga, 1 Plateau) and it worked well this weekend (only played 3 matches, but it was nice to eot KotR for Horizon, sac, draw, KotR gets +2/+2 and it also combos well with LftL + protects LftL from non-Extirpate gy hate).

_erbs_
11-21-2011, 09:36 PM
I’m also interested in the 2 sideboard Blood Moon (!) of the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck. It seems powerful but really hard to manage with just 2 basics, I can see it as an improved Choke effect, devastating against 3+ colors deck, even if non-blue. Any feedback? When would you side them in?

Research & innovation are always welcome! Good luck :smile:

Thanks, blood moon is really devastating, thats why decks like imperial painter are such a pain to play against, in my traditional mav list in where i ran 4 basics my win % against moon effect is just around 33%.., if you are decided to play blood moon i think you have to re-tweak your deck to maximize its potential.., and im guessing birds of paradise would be the mana dork of choice over noble , in the times i was running fire mav my mana dork config was 2 birds 2 noble then 3 birds 1 noble, in those config i was running 1 taiga 1 plateau and 4 burnwillows and 4 fires.

Maybe adding aether vial in the mix for the blood moon plan could work as you can still cast creatures and burn them with fires or maybe more red removals.

Nice to know that rebs are doing its job...

As for my new deck here is it comments and suggestions are welcome.

Lands [23]
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port
1 karakas
1 gaea's cradle
1 maze of ith
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 plains
1 forest
1 horizon canopy

Creatures [26]
3 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
1 birds of paradise
3 qasali pridemage
3 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
4 kotr
3 flickerwisp
2 gaddock teeg / terravore / mirran crusader

Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte

Water_Wizard
11-22-2011, 03:31 AM
Punishing Fire Maverick is the Norwegian Team's Legacy deck in the finals of Worlds. Here's the list:

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Purify the Grave
1 Pyroblast
2 Qasali Pridemage

It will end up going head to head with a Sneak and Show deck that the Japanese team is playing.

264505, Thanks for sharing the Norwegian Team's List.

I'm not sure of the format of worlds, but if you know you are going head to head with Sneak and Show, why not a little more hate? Why did the Norwegian Team decide against an Enlightened Tutor sideboard? I play online and have faced Sneak and Show and I recommend Ensnaring Bridge. Your guys can get under it with exhalted and it stops their guys in their tracks. Other than a resolved Teeg, you have no answer to Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle also works against Sneak Attack.

Quick question- What are you bringing the Batterskull, Purify the Grave and Blood Moon in against?

Esper3k
11-22-2011, 09:33 AM
264505, Thanks for sharing the Norwegian Team's List.

I'm not sure of the format of worlds, but if you know you are going head to head with Sneak and Show, why not a little more hate? Why did the Norwegian Team decide against an Enlightened Tutor sideboard? I play online and have faced Sneak and Show and I recommend Ensnaring Bridge. Your guys can get under it with exhalted and it stops their guys in their tracks. Other than a resolved Teeg, you have no answer to Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle also works against Sneak Attack.

Quick question- What are you bringing the Batterskull, Purify the Grave and Blood Moon in against?

Well, they don't get to change their decklists, so that was what they played throughout the Team swiss rounds as well.

Artlee
11-22-2011, 09:57 AM
Quick question- What are you bringing the Batterskull, Purify the Grave and Blood Moon in against?

I'm not sure with Batterskull but Purify the Grave is mostly vs reanimator. It also gets boarded in against dredge, but is not as strong there.

Blood Moon is good against 3 colored decks. BUG, RUG and other decks run with a very low number of basic lands. I would not board them in versus decks that run Noble Hierarch though.

TossUsToLions
11-22-2011, 01:55 PM
Hey guys, I haven't played any mtg in the last 2 months and I'm preparing for a tourney that's in a few weeks. I have a few questions about the current state of Maverick:

Which singletons are necessary now? Terravore? Teeg still? Thrun still? Is 2 Qasali the right number now? How about 2 Ooze?

Also, anything major i'm missing from this board:
2 K.Gripp
2 E.Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Bojuka Bog

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for any help.

Water_Wizard
11-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Hey guys, I haven't played any mtg in the last 2 months and I'm preparing for a tourney that's in a few weeks. I have a few questions about the current state of Maverick:

Which singletons are necessary now? Terravore? Teeg still? Thrun still? Is 2 Qasali the right number now? How about 2 Ooze?

Also, anything major i'm missing from this board:
2 K.Gripp
2 E.Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Bojuka Bog

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for any help.

Personally, I moved Bog to the main because I was facing so many KotR's. If you anticipate a lot of mirror matches, I would move Bog to the main, because it allows your KotRs to wreck their KotRs. Bog in main also help improves the 1st game against Reanimator/Dredge and can surprise Snapcaster/Goyf/Nimble Mongoose. I run 1 Teeg Main and Thrun in the board.

Here's a link to a list ruckus ran 2 weeks ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22585-6th-at-SCG-Vegas-Maverick-Cultural-Wasteland It's a very well-tweaked list and I would run something similar with perhaps a few small changes for your meta.

Esper3k
11-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Really depends on what you want to do. Some people also like Scryb Ranger as a 1-of also.

Your sideboard looks fine. If you want a little more combo hate, you can also throw in a Thorn of Amethyst as well.

Water_Wizard
11-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Well, they don't get to change their decklists, so that was what they played throughout the Team swiss rounds as well.
Esper - thanks - like I said, I wasn't sure of the format, but this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification! Personally, I've had Batterskull in the main to the board to now completely out. I was facing a lot of Burn and losing, so I put Batterskull in the main, but found it was oftentimes dead or just sitting in my hand when I drew it without SFM or SFM was killed, and then I put it in the board, but found my deck was too equipment heavy (I only run 2 SFM and had 2 equipment main and 2 board), so now I removed it all together and am relying on Ooze, Jitte and STPing my own creatures to survive against burn. Ooze is my favorite, as he removes Hellspark and prevents Grim from activating, if they play Grim.

Seems like the proper equipment and when to side the equipment package out is something that is being tweaked. SoFaF, SoFaI, SoLaS, Jitte, Batterskull are all getting play and are boarded out against different decks. It seems many players remove the equipment package against UW Stoneblade, but I think STPs should come out and equipment should stay in, if anything so you can legend-rule their jitte. If they get active Jitte, our deck is just about over. I run punishing mav, so I still have some removal after the STPs come out.

Currently, I'm running 2 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 SoFaF. I'm intrigued by ruckus' running of SoLaS and thinking about working 1 into my board. It takes care of the STP/PTE hate and recurring Pridemage/Dryad Arbor is good. It also has life gain to help out against the Burn decks I mentioned above. However, since I already have Prop Black from SoFaF, it seems redundant. I thought about putting SoFaI in the main, like Ruckus did, but there are strong synergies between SoFaF and Punishing Grove. With the untap all land trigger on the stack, you can use Punishing Fire a few times. This usually occurs in games in which you are already ahead, so maybe it is overkill. I like SoFaI for the card advantage, burn, protection from Jace and protection from Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt, so maybe I'll play this, but I wonder if I need the extra removal since I already have 4 STP, 3 PF, 1 Jitte and 2 creatures with Prop Blue (Rangers).

What's everyone's thoughts on when to use SoFaI and when to use SoFaF? SoFaF in punishing mav and SoFaI in 'traditional' (u/g) mav? SoFaF if you expect a lot of ANT/TES (or is it too slow?) and BUG? SoFaI if you expect URG Tempo? What does everyone think about the Prop Black swords against Batterskull? SoLaS against U/W Snapcaster to combat STP/PTE and Batterskull?

Esper3k
11-22-2011, 03:03 PM
I currently also have cut Batterskull from my 75 completely. I could see running it in maybe the PFires builds though since you have less creatures.

My equipment package is currently 1 Jitte, 1 SoFI, 1 SoFF, 3 SFM all main.

I generally get SoFI if I either need cards or need removal (and have already gotten my Jitte out).

SoLS is good defensively, but that white ability is so meh...

I'm also playing Rukcus' Gaea's Cradle, so that makes SoFF even more nuts. The other day, I got some sick use out of SoFF + Maze of Ith to give 2 of my guys vigilance!

Esper3k
11-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot to add - in our deck SoFI also adds quite a bit of defensive ability since we have a lot of X/1 guys and a regular sword won't protect them from Lightning Bolts. I've found this particularly useful against Canadian Thresh.

Koby
11-22-2011, 05:18 PM
In my build, I could have run with SoLS instead of Batterskull and probably still end up fine. Terravore and Batterskull play out in the same role - breaking through the stalemates. The Sword of X/Y issue is something that needs to gel with the pilot however. I prefer SoFI and SoLS because they provide the relevant protections in a neat package with useful abilities.


SoLaS against U/W Snapcaster to combat STP/PTE and Batterskull?

Nail on the head.

Since I don't play PFires, I have no need for SoFF; moreover pro:green isn't necessary in Maverick. This leaves only Pro:Black as the relevant protection. Same with SoBM, pro:green is wasted and the triggered abilities are actually useless. That leaves only 3 remaining swords, and the SoWP is just all around terrible.

For equipment packages, we could play:

1. Umezawa's Jitte
2. Sword of Fire and Ice
3. Sword of X/Y or Batterskull [optional if playing the 3rd equipment]

The Vegas list was anticipating a lot of CanThresh, Merfolk, and Burn (Arizona players...). SoLS in the sideboard for pro:white/black mainly against Junk/Deadguy lists, and recursion 2ndly. I could see playing SoFF in a metagame that has a lot of Junk and BUG lists as well - but from any indication the BUG lists are moving more towards a creature base that is Goyf + :u: creatures, rather than Tombstalker.

The only change I would make right now to my Vegas list is to cut 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Eternal Witness for a 2nd Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger and possibly 1 Tarmogoyf. I think that the Scryb Ranger is vastly more important than Quirion Ranger specifically for Flying and Pro:Blue.



Which singletons are necessary now? Terravore? Teeg still? Thrun still? Is 2 Qasali the right number now? How about 2 Ooze?

Also, anything major i'm missing from this board:
-snip-


Terravore to help break apart the mirror/stalemate.
Teeg is awesome against UW control and Combo.
Thrun is awesome against anything mid-range, but terrible against combo/reanimator.
The two Oozes are definitely recommended against the majority of the field, and especially if you anticipate any form of G/Y deck.

I saw a list up-thread that put in 2 Tarmogoyfs in anticipation of Tempo and aggro. I think this is the right call for the right metagame.

The SB looks complete, and I would consider finding room for Thorn of Amethyst. The Dueling Grounds looks a little suspect, which matchups are you concerned about that this card would be relevant? I can't imagine you would also board into the Enlightened Tutors to find it against the creature feature.

Water_Wizard
11-22-2011, 11:11 PM
Teeg is awesome against UW control and Combo.

How actively do you seek Teeg against UW control? Against combo, I'm dropping Teeg or Canonist as quickly as possible, but against UW control, a lot of times I have been boarding Teeg out.
Here is my reasoning: Pre-board, the average UW deck has 7-8 spells Teeg will stop (4 FOW, 3/4 Jace and maybe Elspeth or Repeal (and I guess a hardcast Batterskull)). Post-board, they are likely to bring in 1-2 WOG, perhaps an Elspeth and maybe an extra Batterskull (plus 4 PTE) and they are taking out 4 FOW, maybe a Counterspell or two, and a Clique. So, post-board, they are going to have 4 Jace, 2 WOG, 1 Elspeth and 2 Batterskull. Teeg shuts down 4 of our cards (GSZ). I like Teeg shutting down WOG. I also like that he stops Jace, but I run 2 REB, so I have some answers to Jace.
ruckus, my question to you is: how actively do you bring out Teeg against U/W combo? What is your strategy as far as protecting him? I guess with SoLaS in your sb, it is easier to protect Teeg from STP/PTE.
Presently, I've been playing my creatures out conservatively against U/W Snapcaster. As Punishing Mav, I have the backup plan of pinging for 1 point a turn. I'm finding if I just drop 1 or 2 creatures at a time, I can can attack for 2-3 a turn and whittle them down.
I'm just now realizing, I don't have much of a plan against U/W, other than not playing out too much and getting a MoR to stick.
Teeg is good, but he's vulnerable to Snapcaster on the attack (if you don't have any exhalted triggers). What I'm trying to ask is: "What is your plan against U/W?" and "Do you put all your eggs in one basket with Teeg?" I realize it depends on board state, your hand, etc., but in general, what would you like to do?
I'm about 500 vs. U/W, probably slightly over. I feel like they win when they draw well or I draw too much land (I guess this could be said about any match-up), but that the Mav v. U/W match should be about 60/40 or 55/45 in Mav's favor - we have more threats than they have answers, we have some nice tricks with LftL and Sylvan Library, and we should be able to out tempo them (mid-range vs. control)

Syaoran
11-23-2011, 10:11 AM
Hi;

Reading the primer, and most of the thread (including the last few pages), I have to ask- are dark confidant variations still viable?

Thanks!

dsck
11-23-2011, 03:13 PM
Hi;

Reading the primer, and most of the thread (including the last few pages), I have to ask- are dark confidant variations still viable?

Thanks!

Confidant is weak against Tempo Thr€shold which is seeing a lot play everywhere.

Water_Wizard
11-23-2011, 07:48 PM
My decklist, as long promised... You will see, this is very similar to Morte's list, with some small tweaks for my meta. I play purely MTG Online. I'll discuss my reason for my picks, which cards are near misses and which cards I'm considering cutting. First, the deck:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stony Silence
1 Serenity
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Choke
1 Path to Exile
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast


Comments on the decklist:
Why do I play 2 Qasali Pridemage main? I found I was putting him in every game, so I just decided to leave him in. Even on the draw, he's a 3/3 beater. I also ran into situations where I would play out an early Pridgemage and it would die (I have no recursion Eternal Witness or Sword of Light and Shadow main), so the 2nd Pridgemage is nice as a GSZ target.
Why no Maze of Ith in my 75? This is one of the cards that is 'on the cusp'. I like that it can give my guys vigilance, stop an opposing Batterskull, or deny a Etched Champion equipped with Cranial Plating when they have Metalcraft. However, it's rarely a card I like to draw (good as a KotR tutor effect, but tough in your opening 7 or off the top), it is susceptible to Wasteland (which seems to be on the rise), and it seems a highly reactive card- I view Maze of Ith as a card that will prevent you from losing the game, but it won't win you a game.

Some deck decisions: Currently, I'm only running 5 red land sources and 1 BoP. Lots of the decks are running an extra Taiga or switching Noble Hierarch(s) for Birds of Paradise. I have played very few games with this set-up (only 5). Under the previous set-up (with the extra Taiga, I only ran into problems against URG Tempo). Their combinations of Wasteland and Stifle keep red lands off the board and prevent us from fetching more. Life from the Loam helps bring these red sources and Stifled Fetchlands back.

(Selected) comments on the sideboard:
Ethersworn Canonist I'm only running 1 because I haven't had that much of a problem with Storm and I can tutor for her.

Serenity I keep the one in the board for Enchantress, Stax and Affinity. These are decks I occasionally play against Online and this 1-of makes otherwise though match-ups easy. My only other removal to enchantments and artifacts are 2 Qasali Pridemage, so the Serenity helps a lot, in the limited cases I've used it.

Ensnaring Bridge is for Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Reanimator has answers in the forms of Angel of Despair and/or Terastodon, but Ensnaring Bridge will usually buy you some time or they might even board out their threats. Likewise, Sneak and Show is unlikely to bring in artifact hate against Maverick. I also considered Pithing Needle against Sneak and Show for Sneak Attack. I was in a situation, where an opponent dropped a Sneak Attack, but was tapped out. I have an Enlightened Tutor in hand and 3 land on board (2 tapped with a W open) and no land in hand. He has 2 Mountains, so I couldn't Waste his Red sources. Also, Karakas and Phyrexian Metamorph won't work, because if I bounce with Karakas, he'll just replay and I can't play Metamorph at instant speed. So, after this game, I decide to run Ensnaring Bridge in the board. It is yet to be tested, but I think it's our best option.

Tormod's Crypt Wheel of Sun and Moon. I rarely bring these in because I rarely play dredge or other graveyard based decks. Since I stepped up to 2 Scavenging Ooze in the main, I may drop to 1 piece of gy hate in the board. However, without Gaea's Cradle, if they have a good dredge, I could face the possibility of not having enough G mana to remove all of their threats with Ooze.

Choke I'm only running 1. I've run 2 in the past. I bring it in against URG Tempo and U/W Snapcaster. It's better against Snapcaster. Against Snapcaster, I usually board out 4 Swords to Plowshares and a Karakas. In comes 1 Choke, 1 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Pyroblast, 1 Thrun, the Last Troll and 1 Sword of Light and Shadow. So, the 1 Choke is because I don't make the room for 2. I'm also hesitant to take out the whole equipment package against U/W Snapcaster (this would make more room), as I prefer to fight equipment with equipment and they usually don't have many answers other than to keep our creatures off the board. Against URG Tempo, I'm going to take out Gaddock Teeg, Sylvan Library, Qasali Pridemage and 2 Aven Mindcensor for a Choke, Sword of Light and Shadow, Thurn, the Last Troll and Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. I also switch a Swords to Plowshares for a Path to Exile, since URG Tempo doesn't run any basic lands. I keep 1 Pridgemage in for Mind Harness.

Path to Exile for the mirror - it's nice to have the extra removal spell.
Thrun, the Last Troll - I really like Thrun against U/W Snapcaster and Black Control.
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast I think 2 is the right number for the 'blasts. For a while, I ran 3, but I found they were clogging up my hand.

Cards I may remove (on the cusp):

Karakas
is good against Reanimator and a Show and Telled Emrakul, The Aeons Torn. I haven't faced either of these decks in a long time and there are other and better options out of the sideboard. The best use I've received from Karakas was Legend-ruling my opponent's Karakas against Death and Taxes. I'm considering replacing this with a Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle or a 6th red-land source.

Cards that missed the cut:

Maze of Ith
Phyrexian Metamorph
Batterskull
Sword of Feast and Famine
Quirion Ranger
3rd Aven Mindcensor
Tarmogoyf
Terravore
2nd Sylvan Library
Gaea's Cradle

Maze and Metamorph - see above. Batterskull is a meta decision - plus with only 2 Stoneforge Mystics it is harder to cheat it into play. Scavenging Ooze, Umezawa's Jitte, and Sword of Light and Shadow provide life gain versus burn decks (I still face a lot of burn online).
Quirion Ranger I like this card as it is a 1 casting cost and is an earlier drop than Scryb Ranger and combines better with Green Sun's Zenith. However, as ruckus mentions above, Scryb Ranger has Protection from Blue, flying and flash. If you've missed a land drop, Quirion Ranger can become a 'free drop' and both Rangers combo well with Mother of Runes, Dryad Arbor, Knight of the Reliquary, Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch plus they protect your forests from Wasteland. One issue with both of the Rangers is that out of the 22 land I run, only 5 are forests, so I've run into problems where I didn't have a Forest in play to activate Rangers or not two to activate Rangers on my turn and my opponent's turn.
Aven Mindcensor. I really like this card - it stops:
Natural Order
Green Sun's Zenith
Pattern of Rebirth
Infernal Tutor
Stoneforge Mystic
Knight of the Reliquary
Intuition
Grim Tutor
and Fetchlands. It also has flash and flying (evasion). Until recently, I was running 3, but I really don't like to draw a second once I have one on board. That being said, I definitely want 1, as this card is one of this deck's only answers to Natural Order. I recently cut the 3rd copy for a 2nd Scryb Ranger, as I really like that card's untap ability (I often find myself wanting to draw Scryb more often).
The reason for not including a 2nd Sylvan Library is the same for not including a 3rd Aven Mindcensor above. 1 is really nice, but 2 is overkill.
Tarmogoyf and Maze of Ith would be the two cards I would add as 76 and 77, perhaps removing a Karakas or Ensnaring Bridge from the board for a Maze of Ith or the 2nd Scryb Ranger from the main for a Tarmogoyf. 'Goyf is great against Burn, Zoo, URG Tempo or for creating a clock against a combo deck. He's usually our biggest beater at the GSZ=2 slot. He's also very good at opposing other 'Goyfs and giving our deck some time to develop.

Comments/Feedback/Questions welcome. As Mav players, after we answer the 'Traditional' WG Mav vs. Punishing Mav question, our decklists are all very similar (I would say 95% of the cards are the same), with small tweaks for the expected metagame. Likewise, the sideboards all have similar themes, with the usual debate being Enlightened Tutor sideboard vs. non-Enlightened Tutor sideboard. After this question is answered, the objectives of most sideboards is similar, with small tweaks for the expected metagame and card preference.

Water_Wizard
11-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Maze of Ith (should not be Maindeck)

ruckus, is this because it is a dead draw/undesirable against so many decks? From your Vegas tournament report, it looks like you were bringing it in against the mirror, Bant, etc. What other decks do you bring the Maze in against?

To my list above, I'm replacing Karakas with Maze of Ith and the 2nd Scryb Ranger with a Tarmogoyf. Both are mainly meta decisions. Maze is a nice blocking cantrip with Knight of the Reliquary, gives your guys vigilance and saves them from unexpected blocking situations. While it is dead against some decks and susceptible to Wasteland, I still think it's more valuable than Karakas in my meta (I haven't played a Reanimator deck in forever).

Second, I've never been unhappy to draw Tarmogoyf, he is our only decent GSZ=2 threat/blocker and he's good at slowing down Burn, Zoo, URG Tempo's opposing Tarmogoyf and creating a clock against Combo.

I'm very happy with the 2 Scavenging Ooze as it provides a valuable utility, life gain and easily turns into a beater in mid game.

Koby
11-24-2011, 10:29 PM
ruckus, is this because it is a dead draw/undesirable against so many decks? From your Vegas tournament report, it looks like you were bringing it in against the mirror, Bant, etc. What other decks do you bring the Maze in against?


In Game 1 against unknown opponents, you want to be the aggressive deck. It's a dead draw against most control and combo decks, and the maindeck is perfectly able to play aggresive against other mid range decks.

In games 2/3 is were you shift to more of a control deck that answers their general strategy, and having additional outs to opposing KotR/Goyf/Delver is important since the density of the deck is marginalized by the additional SB cards. Against reanimator specifically, it buys you some time and negates one of their attackers if they chose the wrong threat.

I never found that I wanted to use the Maze of Ith tricks with Knight - I would rather just find Wastelands or grow knight with fetchlands then start attacking when he's about 1/2 their life total.

Fatal
11-25-2011, 04:57 AM
Never put out Karakas if you running Teeg MD. Unless you like to be locked down by own creature.

sdematt
11-25-2011, 01:58 PM
What does Karakas have to do with Teeg? You could bounce your Teeg to GSZ, then cast it again if need be.

-Matt

Julian23
11-25-2011, 02:05 PM
I think he's talking about getting your Karakas Wastelanded before you drop Teeg. Still, when in need for the mana, I'd definitely run out that Karakas.

Bzka
11-25-2011, 02:57 PM
What does Karakas have to do with Teeg? You could bounce your Teeg to GSZ, then cast it again if need be.

-Matt

pardon what? :eyebrow:

edit: nvm... >_>

Water_Wizard
11-26-2011, 02:23 AM
Went back to Karakas main deck. I figured the one game I will need it against Iona or Emrakul is worth the 19 I won't need it. Also cut Ensnaring Bridge and Serenity from the sideboard for a 2nd Choke and Maze of Ith. Again, playing the odds of decks I'm most likely to face.

Fossil4182
11-27-2011, 02:44 AM
I decided to step away from the Dark Side (TNT) for a day and sleeved up GW Maverick. The list is close to Art Macurda's from the Vegas SCG event with a few changes based on card availability and my personal taste.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains

Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Batterskull
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mindbreak Trap

I didn't take notes so I would not be able to formulate a report, but I have some general impressions overall and some match up specific thoughts. First, this deck is very skill intensive and based on my experience with the deck, it plays like a control deck rather than a midrange or aggro deck. Second, you'll always be mana hungry with this deck as there are so many ways to interact with the board that you'll always want more resources to do so.

I ended up going 5-0-1 and won the event.

Round One I was paired with Spiral Tide. I cut two Mindbreak Trap prior to the event predicting Reanimator and Dredge...neither showed. Game one I was able to develop flawlessly and caught him casting Merchant Scroll (likely for High Tide), and I resolved Aven Mindcensor effectively grinding him down. Over the following turns, I'm able to tutor up Sword of Feast and Famine which puts the game out of reach for him. I lost game two and game three was close, but he was mana screwed which put him too far behind to get back into the game. Looking back, I would likely cut the Crypt and Relic out of the board for additional copies of Mindbreak Trap.

Round Two I was paired with Affinity. Tower of the Magistrate pulled double duty on offense and defense. I also open with two GSZ in hand which found two Pridemage putting the game far out of reach.

Round Three I played against BW.deck. They have a slightly more powerful creature base for brawling between Confidant, Stoneforge, and Nighthawk. This version was also play Bitterblossom which made his Stoneforge's all the more powerful. Mother of Ruins totally crushed this match up.

Round Four: I opted to draw with Sneak&Show since we were both 3-0 and I hadn't eaten. Plus, I knew there would be at least two more 3-1s and didn't want to risk missing the cut or getting paired up against him because that matchup seems very unfavorable.

Semifinals: I played against the same BW.deck from round three. This match was a grinder, very skill intensive and mentally draining. Game one ended when he drew three of his four Scrubland and I started recurring Wasteland with Life from the Loam. Game two ended when he equipped Bitterblossom tokens and started swinging for the win. Game three was at least 30 minutes and drew the attention of nearly everyone in the store. After lots of grinding, I got there with a Birds of Paradise equipped with a Batterskull.

The Sneak&Show player lost to a Burn player in the other Semifinal match up

Finals: I didn't like my chances playing against Burn. I knew he was running four maindeck Price of Progress which is really painful for this deck. Game One, I opted to take five off of a Browbeat and he drew seven lands over the course of the game. I won in fairly quick fashion despite him dropping me to six. Game Two, I was blown out by Fireblast. Game Three, I was at eight and he was projecting Fireblast. He attempted to resolve Price of Progress when I had four non-basic lands out. I wasted my own Savannah and was able to activate both Canopies to draw cards dodging any damage and got in for the win. I think this match up is very weak and I feel lucky to of won.

Moving forward, I would make the following changes:

Maindeck
-1 Gaea's Cradle
-1 Thrun, the Last Troll
+1 Plains
+1 Scavenging Ooze

Sideboard
-1 Stoney Silence
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Mindbreak Trap
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll

from Cairo
11-27-2011, 03:12 AM
Played Rukcus' list tonight at a local and went 3-1.

I was able to beat Reanimator, UW Stoneblade and RUG Tempo. The match I dropped was to GUwr Zoo. I really liked the list, Ooze and Thrun were really good against Snapcasters. The sb Life from the Loam was very helpful against RUG Tempo. The gy hate was all great against Reanimator, being able to access it by different angles was big too - GSZ for Ooze, ETutor for Crypt/Metamorph and KotR for Bog/Karakas - only a few devoted slots felt like a lot more.

Nothing really jumped out at me to change. Batterskull was unexciting drawn naturally, but it can obviously be a good SFM target against Merfolk or if you get an active Mother of Runes.

lochlan
11-27-2011, 09:11 AM
^ FYI in case you missed it, because I noticed you were playing Witness and only a single Scryb Ranger:


The only change I would make right now to my Vegas list is to cut 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Eternal Witness for a 2nd Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger and possibly 1 Tarmogoyf. I think that the Scryb Ranger is vastly more important than Quirion Ranger specifically for Flying and Pro:Blue.

I only went 2-2 and you won it--but I agree with rukcus that there should be a second Scryb Ranger.

Raystar
11-28-2011, 08:20 AM
Hello guys, normally a lurker but I wanted to report a Top8 I made yesterday in a 42 people tournament in Rome (Italy).

The list I played:

Creatures:

4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Night of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
2 Aven Mindcensor

Spells:

4 Green's Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam

Artifacts:

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:

2 forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland

SB:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke


I'll get to the card choices later, the report first:

1 ROUND (Davide): ANT

Game 1: he starts and and grab Zenith from my hand with Duress. I build mana and land a ooze followed by an Aven Mindcensor I top decked in turn 3. He has no gas, can't recover and I beat him down.
Sideboard: + 4 Thorn,2 Canonist,2 Extraction - 2 Mystic,1 Sword,1 Jitte,1 Mother,1 Loam,1 Grove,1 Fire
Game 2: I keep a very good hand with 2 Thorns and they both get discarded. I manage to top deck another one while he looks for gas and it slows him down considerably while I build damage. He goes off and reveal an echoing truth for my Thorn but is short one mana with a blue mana and two red mana in pool, he could play a 6 storm tendrils to get me low and go back to 13 (he is at 1) life but decides to go for a brainstorm that finds him the B to continue and kill me
Game 3: I think I wasted a Sea and beat him down with him not finding any gas (Mincensor on 3rd turn I think)

G: 2-1 R: 1/0/0

2 ROUND (Garbino): Monowhite Ascension

Game 1: I don't know what he is playing and keep an and with basic forest, a taiga, one zenith and 2 swords. He starts and play Mother of Runes...I wanted to face palm me to death. I play forest go to get W through Zenith and in his second turn he plays...another Mother of Runes! I keep calm play Zenith for a Birds of Paradise and the turn after Mystic for Sword and later a mother of my own. Several turns pass while I land a Knight and wait for the right time to trick him to tap Mother while his life grows to embarrassing amounts. The right time comes, he taps a mom to protect an attacker I sword it he taps the other to give protection and I double fire the two moms...I clean the field from the other weenies and proceed to beat him down.
Sideboard: + 2 Metamorph - 1 Loam,1 ooze

Game 2: he moms, I sword it and the game goes down from then on. Only relevant play is me copying his Batterskull with Metamorph and the break it with Qasali ;)

G: 4-1 R: 2/0/0

3 ROUND (Silvia...not sure, sorry): Merfolk

Game 1: she lands double Vial but I have more steam drop a Mystic+Jitte and eliminate the lords and the blockers she propose, not much she could do
Sideboard: + 2 Choke - 2 ooze

Game 2: More of the same but with less Vials and another quick Jitte that seal the deal together with a Fire.

G: 6-1 R: 3/0/0

4 ROUND (Riccardo...I think, lol I'm too old :) ): Dragon Stompy

Game 1: I believe he is playing Burn and I keep an hand with basic forest a Karakas a mom, Zenith and a mystic, thinking I would play mom a mystic for Sword and try to recover some life. I start and play Karakas for mom pass, He goes and plays Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox and Magus of the Moon....oh geez...luckily I had the basic forest, I play zenith for Birds of Paradise to have W available and after some Knights I proceed to win.
Sideboard: + 2 Krosan Grip - 2 Aven Mindcensor

Game 2: Similar to G1 but he starts with Trini, the end is the same tho.

G: 8-1 R: 4/0/0

I ID the next two rounds and end up 3rd of the swiss.

Top8 1st ROUND (Manfredi): GR Aggro Loam with Punishing Fires

Game 1: Manfredi is a friend of mine and he is a better player than me :) I know I have to play tight and hope he doesn't get a super crazy start...which he does, of course, and there is nothing I can do to prevent losing G1.
Sideboard: + 2 Extraction, 1 Bojuka - 2 Mystic, 1 Mindcensor (should have sided the 3 fires and the 2 Mystics for the GY hate and the Grips...)

Game 2: I play perfectly and keep him out of loams with my Ooze, we move to G3

Game 3: I keep a good hand and I start with a little edge, play a ooze with G open to remove his first loam he fires I remove the loam the ooze dies. my hand at this point is: Zenith, 2 Knights, a Scryb. He lands a Seismic Assault and plays another loam out of double mox and has 2 cards in hand, my Knights would land at 5 and be a real pain in the neck for him if I managed to shutdown seismic assault. I could grab qasali and remove the assault or fetch another ooze to remove the loam and stop him to dredge and replenish his hand. I decide to risk and go for the second loam….only to find out that he has the 3rd one in his hand. I die shortly after from a ton of seismic damage.

I could have played more conservatively, I tend to consider this play as a mistake but the gamble would have made me get a big advantage if it succeeded….

G: 9-3 R: 4/2/1

The deck is very, very, very strong. In a meta of small creatures and tempo deck is a real beast it also has a better than expected behavior against BR storm combo, I'll definitely play it again in tournaments to see how far it can go.

A couple of thoughts on my cards choices:

Ooze: if I didn't fear that they would clash against each other I would play 3 of them, a great card against most of the meta
Loam: I'm taking it out of the deck for another Birds of Paradise. One is too random and the deck doesn't really need it
Wasteland: with Loam in I reduced them to two…I'll have to think about finding some space again for the 3rd.
Mincensor: great card but in tests I found that more than 2 were clogging my hand...

catmint
11-28-2011, 08:36 AM
I would like to have a competent and experienced maverick player to testa couple of games.

Playing Team America or BUG control I never beat Maverick in a real life tournament... However I feel that I learned and adapted to have a real shot. Problem is there are so many bad players in MWS that I can't trust my wins. :)

Would anyone be up for it?
I am also happy to play other decks/strategies I am familiar with..

I have MWS or Cockatrice and I am available usually between 7-9 CET or on weekends.

Looking forward to your PM.

iScare
11-29-2011, 01:56 AM
If the opponent has bloodmoon out and I play bojuka bog. Does it become a basic mountain before I can even exile my opponent's graveyard?

Koby
11-29-2011, 02:05 AM
If the opponent has bloodmoon out and I play bojuka bog. Does it become a basic mountain before I can even exile my opponent's graveyard?

It comes into play tapped as a Mountain and no effect occurs.

Esper3k
11-30-2011, 07:43 PM
Those of you who have been playing SoLS, have you ever had any issues with it shutting off your Mother of Runes?

Koby
11-30-2011, 08:19 PM
Those of you who have been playing SoLS, have you ever had any issues with it shutting off your Mother of Runes?

Yes. Many times. It also stops you from being able to use Elspeth's Jump ability once the sword is equipped. The overall usefulness of SoLS outweighs those two cases however.

Esper3k
11-30-2011, 11:13 PM
Yes. Many times. It also stops you from being able to use Elspeth's Jump ability once the sword is equipped. The overall usefulness of SoLS outweighs those two cases however.

Yeah right now I'm trying to decide between SoFF and SoLS as my third equipment slot.

I always like SoLS in theory, especially as a defensive weapon, but I've been digging how SoFF gets you past the green decks and the sickness with Gaea's Cradle.

Raystar
12-01-2011, 03:00 AM
SoLS shuts down pretty much all the removal that can be thrown to the creature equipped, the best part of it is equipping a Mindcensor or a Scryb Ranger....having infinite Qasali or virtually infinite Witnesses is very very very powerful :)

Esper3k
12-01-2011, 08:48 AM
SoLS shuts down pretty much all the removal that can be thrown to the creature equipped, the best part of it is equipping a Mindcensor or a Scryb Ranger....having infinite Qasali or virtually infinite Witnesses is very very very powerful :)

SoLS on an X/1 doesn't stop Lightning Bolt, which is pretty relevant in today's meta, imo.

Koby
12-01-2011, 03:14 PM
SoLS on an X/1 doesn't stop Lightning Bolt, which is pretty relevant in today's meta, imo.

No, it doesn't. But SoLS isn't very good against decks with Red to begin with. SoFI takes care of those decks.

iScare
12-01-2011, 03:49 PM
Why don't use both swords and depending on your meta, just fetch the right sword. Why not go with Jitte, SoFI and SoLS?

Esper3k
12-01-2011, 03:57 PM
Why don't use both swords and depending on your meta, just fetch the right sword. Why not go with Jitte, SoFI and SoLS?

Well, the question isn't about SoFI vs SoLS for me, but SoLS or SoFF (I'm already playing Jitte and SoFI).

mordraid
12-01-2011, 03:58 PM
Why don't use both swords and depending on your meta, just fetch the right sword. Why not go with Jitte, SoFI and SoLS?

Before the printing of batterskull it's what i've been runing with great sucess.

Koby
12-01-2011, 04:21 PM
Well, the question isn't about SoFI vs SoLS for me, but SoLS or SoFF (I'm already playing Jitte and SoFI).

I think that Pro:w: is more important than Pro:g:, especially against UW/x control decks that run Stoneforge (Pro:w: for SFM, StP; Pro:b: against Batterskull). Much more so than Pro:g: against other Maverick-esque decks. Against these decks, SoLS is still useful (can't be blocked by Mom, SFM, Knight, Pridemage, Teeg) plus not worrying about StP (which should always be a worry in the mirrors).

The best evasion in the mirror is either Flying (Scrub Ranger, Aven Mindcensor, Elspeth) or Trample (Terravore).

----------------------------------
I recently played against a Maverick Survival-esque build featuring Fauna Shaman, Loyal Retainers, Iona, and Elesh Norn. It also included Garruk Relentless from Innistrad. Has anyone been tinkering around with such a build taking a page from the list as it originated? These seems to have some potential, as playing with Garruk gives slightly more removal for the deck, as well as the inevitability that Elspeth provides in most lists.

Point for discussion:

Garruk Relentless vs Elspeth, Knight-Errant

lyracian
12-02-2011, 03:46 PM
Point for discussion: Garruk Relentless vs Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Garruk's ability to whack a mole when he comes into play is great but it seems very situational. If your opponent does not have any weenies in play you can only summon Wolves and while they are bigger than Soldiers you do not gain loyalty doing so. You can wait a turn and kill your own Wolf to transform but then you have waited two turns just to get Veil-Cursed at one counter! Elspeth is at five counters before an opponent gets to respond.

If your only fourth turn play is your Planeswalker then unless your opponent finds an answer Elspeth's mighty leap puts them on a 3-4 turn clock. I just do not see Garruk offering that sort of presence.

bradstone
12-02-2011, 08:06 PM
Why not Garruk, Primal Hunter? 1 turn after he comes in you're drawing like 4 cards minimum. Seems pretty good

Vandalize
12-02-2011, 08:13 PM
Do GWx Maverick really needs those fancy Planeswalkers?

I mean, the strenght of this deck is ramp or drop mom T1 and just drop a game-winning Fatty right after. Or do some GSZ shiny plays to get some Hatebears. Equipment and KotR tricks are what make this deck strong, after all.

Garruk and Elspeth seems cute, but they're over manaintensive for little reward. And Garruk just eat a bolt like a champ.

bakofried
12-03-2011, 01:18 PM
Maverick is a midrange aggro deck. Elspeth works quite well as a curve topper, and is established past the point of being "cute" in the deck.

Julian23
12-04-2011, 08:16 PM
"Maverick? What? I mean, did Tom Cruise play this deck, or what?"
- Brian Kibbler on SCG right now :laugh:

Also, Maverick is on SCG Coverage right now. Tune in!

bakofried
12-04-2011, 08:31 PM
Please don't tune in; it's painful to watch. He boarded in E. Tutor against a blue deck, normally not a good idea, he randomly tapped two mana (and did nothing with it), he had Teeg and SoLaS out against a U/W player and didn't equip him; I'm sorry, but unless I'm just not seeing the lines of play, I think Richard Winters is playing and sideboarding terribly.

Koby
12-04-2011, 08:52 PM
RE: Earlier broadcast
Watching this match makes my eyes bleed. I don't think the participants have enough cards to misplay this much.

EDIT #1: Looks like G/W Maverick makes top 8. I think mostly on the strength of the deck itself, rather than the skill of the pilot. *shrug*
EDIT #2: Looks like the deck is a 73/75 carbon copy of my list. Cutting Maze of Ith and Path to Exile for 2 Purify the Grave.

It's really awful seeing your hard played list take it to the top off of poor play. :(

conboy31
12-04-2011, 08:55 PM
I would be very interested in reading a tournament report with Richard Winter recounting that game. Wow. Actively making non-game winning plays.

Fatal
12-05-2011, 10:59 AM
Unfortunately on there are non good pilots of Mavericks on SCG yet. Watching them makes more people sad then not watching it at all at SCG.. anyway I update Primer a little ad section about Punishing version and some tips. Enjoy :].

I hope some good pilot take the deck to SCG or I emigrate to US ;]

Esper3k
12-05-2011, 11:59 AM
I finished 3rd at a tournament for a Beta Savannah this weekend with just GW Maverick. Lost to the eventual winner (my only loss for the day) who was playing Big Zoo in 3 games, bah!

He had a very strong hand G3 on the play (T1 Nacatl, T2 Noble, T3 kill my guy, T4 Elspeth) vs my mediocre hand and me drawing land, arbor, land, Scryb Ranger. Ouch.

Overall, the deck performed pretty well - still need to make adjustments, but the deck has always performed solidly for me.

KobeBryan
12-05-2011, 06:34 PM
RE: Earlier broadcast
Watching this match makes my eyes bleed. I don't think the participants have enough cards to misplay this much.

EDIT #1: Looks like G/W Maverick makes top 8. I think mostly on the strength of the deck itself, rather than the skill of the pilot. *shrug*
EDIT #2: Looks like the deck is a 73/75 carbon copy of my list. Cutting Maze of Ith and Path to Exile for 2 Purify the Grave.

It's really awful seeing your hard played list take it to the top off of poor play. :(

Yea...i didn't think there was another player in this world that would make more misplays than iscare.

Shows the power of this deck.

KobeBryan
12-05-2011, 06:34 PM
I finished 3rd at a tournament for a Beta Savannah this weekend with just GW Maverick. Lost to the eventual winner (my only loss for the day) who was playing Big Zoo in 3 games, bah!

He had a very strong hand G3 on the play (T1 Nacatl, T2 Noble, T3 kill my guy, T4 Elspeth) vs my mediocre hand and me drawing land, arbor, land, Scryb Ranger. Ouch.

Overall, the deck performed pretty well - still need to make adjustments, but the deck has always performed solidly for me.

Why'd you take mav to a tournament over eva green...just curious.

Koby
12-05-2011, 07:08 PM
Why'd you take mav to a tournament over eva green...just curious.

I'm guessing that :b: has worse options than :w: in the current metagame. Namely: Stoneforge + KotR.

KobeBryan
12-05-2011, 07:09 PM
I'm guessing that :b: has worse options than :w: in the current metagame. Namely: Stoneforge + KotR.

you playing this weekend at knightsware?

Koby
12-05-2011, 07:34 PM
you playing this weekend at knightsware?

It's in my top 3 deck choices for the event.

JadeOberg
12-05-2011, 07:54 PM
I would be very interested in reading a tournament report with Richard Winter recounting that game. Wow. Actively making non-game winning plays.

Yeah, that was so ridiculous to watch. I wonder what his opponent was thinking as he watched this guy crush him despite multiple...ahem...MULTIPLE misplays per turn.

It would have been nice to see what a competent pilot could have done in the top 8. Booo Force of Will, Brainstorm, and SCM!

Esper3k
12-05-2011, 08:42 PM
Why'd you take mav to a tournament over eva green...just curious.

I've been playing Maverick a lot more over the past few months.

Also, as much as I love Eva, it's not nearly as consistent as Maverick. With Maverick's crazy tutoring ability / flexibility, I'm arrogant to believe that I am usually a better player than most opponents and can leverage that into a win.

I'm working on a tournament report for the Savannah tournament and I should have it up tonight.

UnsungHero
12-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Has anyone tested Garruk Wildspeaker in their builds?

Ive had him as a one of and hes proven to be pretty decent. Using him to untap Gaeas Cradle and dumping some small creatures and next turn overrun seems pretty good.

_erbs_
12-05-2011, 09:25 PM
Hello
Just wondering.., having a generic mav creature base of
3-4 noble heiarch
3-4 kotr
2-3 pridemage
1-2 ooze, tarmo, scryb ranger
1 offs of eternal witness, teeg, etc.

Ask yourself does tutoring for a pridemage, ooze or kotr is really a strong play, which my gutt feel is saying that they are the most common targets of gsz which also has a high chance of getting dazed if your opponent is using it.

I will not deny that the late game benefits of gsz is really strong as its not a dead card and also puts pressure on the board everytime you have it.

Now, before you benefit from gsz, you need to have atleast 3 mana or 4 to benefit from it so early game its a deadcard pre se unless you can develop mana early. Right now i see 2 things that wrecks mav's game plan with the current meta.
1. stifle
2. gsz becoming a turn slower in the sense you need to play around daze.

i don't know what you guys have been doing but right now i think mav needs to make some changes to fight the current meta.

Koby
12-05-2011, 10:50 PM
Has anyone tested Garruk Wildspeaker in their builds?

Ive had him as a one of and hes proven to be pretty decent. Using him to untap Gaeas Cradle and dumping some small creatures and next turn overrun seems pretty good.

I think Garruk Relentless is strictly better for this deck. 4 mana threats shouldn't be feeding you into MORE mana.


I think I might be a minority with regards to GSZ, but I typically find mana dorks until I hit the 4 mana mark when I have:
1) not enough lands
2) too many GSZ

Otherwise, I would wait for GSZ -> relevant creature. I find myself finding Scryb Ranger more often too, especially when I have an active Mom, or a mana dork.

GSZ -> KotR is usually a game shifting event (even if it is on turn 3). I have no problem running GSZ into countermagic too btw.

Esper3k
12-05-2011, 11:04 PM
I also tend to fairly aggressively use my GSZ early to find mana dudes.

Against the tempo decks, having a mana accelerant is huge when much of their plan is dependent upon mana denial + Daze.

Being able to stick a Knight on T3 while being protected from Daze will oftentimes win you the game against tempo decks since she will generally outclass any of their creatures.

_erbs_
12-05-2011, 11:56 PM
I also tend to fairly aggressively use my GSZ early to find mana dudes.

Against the tempo decks, having a mana accelerant is huge when much of their plan is dependent upon mana denial + Daze.

Being able to stick a Knight on T3 while being protected from Daze will oftentimes win you the game against tempo decks since she will generally outclass any of their creatures.

Exactly my point.., you need resources to power out gsz properly.., the real question is can you land a kotr turn 3 that is not boltable range nor catch a daze on that turn. Yes kotr will be a problem against tempo deck, but thats the only creature mav has, in 4offs, not counting thrun, or if you catch them without counter magic and land a ooze and pump it, that is bigger than them. Like what i've posted earlier mav's creature are very weak compared to them without equips.

The only threat mav really has against tempo decks is kotr, besides that tempo decks will just race you and when they land a 4/5 tarmo your the one going to be in trouble if you don't land your equips

Raystar
12-06-2011, 05:29 AM
The only threat mav really has against tempo decks is kotr, besides that tempo decks will just race you and when they land a 4/5 tarmo your the one going to be in trouble if you don't land your equips

Actually I think that when playing against tempo you basically play two different games:

1. You are on the play
2. They are on the play

In 1 you have many game breaking plays that seriously cripple the match for them: Mother of Runes, a mana dork, GSZ for Dryad (especially if you fetch for basic forest). If you also happen to be playing a red splash playing a mana dork first turn followed by a red land source is a killer for their delvers.

In case 2 you need to play a lot more tight and hope they don't do land->Delver or land->Mongoose. The real problem here is that they can slow roll you by not allowing Mother of Runes or KotR to come into play.

So, I think this is a matchup that needs to be analyzed in the two different scenarios and not generalized. On the play Maverick eats them alive, on the draw they have the upper hand...

Esper3k
12-06-2011, 08:48 AM
Exactly my point.., you need resources to power out gsz properly.., the real question is can you land a kotr turn 3 that is not boltable range nor catch a daze on that turn. Yes kotr will be a problem against tempo deck, but thats the only creature mav has, in 4offs, not counting thrun, or if you catch them without counter magic and land a ooze and pump it, that is bigger than them. Like what i've posted earlier mav's creature are very weak compared to them without equips.

The only threat mav really has against tempo decks is kotr, besides that tempo decks will just race you and when they land a 4/5 tarmo your the one going to be in trouble if you don't land your equips

Mother of Runes is very strong against tempo decks as well. Scryb Ranger is surprisingly good because it stops Delver indefinitely.

Scavenging Ooze, of course, is amazing if you get to untap with it.

Even then, you don't have to land a Knight on T3. Oftentimes waiting until T4 is fine - it's not like they always have the nut draw to T1 Delver, T2 flip / Goyf you. All you need is 2 fetchlands on your way to 4 mana to get Knight out of Bolt range. Don't forget that you have GSZ as well, so you really have effectively 8 Knights.

In many situations, your own Wastelands are powerful as well, allowing you to cut them from a color.

Unless they're holding Force, your 1 drops are actually very problematic for them, especially StP. Even if they Force something, that's usually ok because they've just card disadvantaged themselves and almost everything you play is something they have to deal with or lose the game (Ooze, GSZ, Mother, Knight, SFM).

Koby
12-06-2011, 12:59 PM
Actually I think that when playing against tempo you basically play two different games:

1. You are on the play
2. They are on the play



I agree with this rationale. I've never been comfortable playing against Tempo on the draw with this deck for precisely the reason that Delver/Stile/Wasteland/Daze/Snare plan always seems to be this deck's Achilles'-heel.

I would even argue that games come down to those involving an early Delver, and otherwise.

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 04:11 PM
Maybe people should be playing more red splash. Pyroblasts are amazing... My list:

4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green's Sun Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

1 Elspeth, Knight-errant

1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Tower of the Magistrate

SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Thrun
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Choke

Also, @bakofried:
Yeah, poor guy. that was the worst game of Magic I have seen in a long time. I don't know why you think boarding in E Tutors against UW is bad though. The guy searching for the Jitte with it was terrible, but for me they are Choke 4-5.

Derayler
12-06-2011, 05:45 PM
I have Punishing Mav built, but I'm a little edgy on some numbers. This is my list so far

Land - 23
7 Fetch
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures - 22
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble
1 BoP
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
1 Goyf
1 Thrun
1 Teeg
3 Mindcensor

Other - 15
4 GSZ
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
1 Loam
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB is not made yet, but I need to know exactly what matches will need to be improved after the above list is tweaked. I am playing in the SCG invitational so I expect a lot of Tempo RUG, UW Blade, some Counterbalance (most likely RUG), Reanimator, some Bant Blade, and a few other random decks like dredge, but those are the major players so far.

This is really just the 5th place list from the GP, but I cut an Ooze for a Thrun, because he beats up on control. If some guys playing the red list could give a few recommendations and tell me what they would recommend for SB if they have a similar meta or what would help against these decks. I think it might be a right choice to cut down on the Mindcensors as the seems strong against combo more than anything.

Sorry for any grammatical errors and thanks for the help.

Esper3k
12-06-2011, 05:57 PM
In general, eTutors are bad against blue decks because if they counter the tutor target, you just generated card disadvantage for yourself.

The exception is against fast blue decks like combo where we have to immediately have an answer or lose.

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 06:04 PM
@Derayler:
I have found a playset of Punishing Fire to be excessive. It's a great card, but the Pyroblasts in the SB are what make the red splash a lot stronger imo, not the fires. In my experience with the card, you can definitely flood out on removal and not have enough beef. I would also say that Mindcensor is really weak and should probably be something else in your build. A notable card that is missing is Sylvan Library, which is a house.

I notice that a lot of people are not running Batterskull and the full set of Stoneforges, which is weird to me. Batterskull helps add to the threat density tremendously. 4 Knight, 4 GSZ, 4 Stoneforge (with Batterskull), and a few beefy 2-drop GSZ targets makes it really difficult for decks to keep up with the threats. Having a Batterskull in the 75 single-handedly tilts a lot of matchups more in my favor.

@Esper:
Yeah I mean I get the concept of E Tutor being card disadvantage, but Choke flat-out wins the game against a lot of decks, even the uber-slow UW decks. I don't know how people are having success against UW without 5 Choke and 3 Pyroblast post SB. UW and BUG are COMPLETELY different matchups in games 2 and 3.

Koby
12-06-2011, 06:09 PM
@Derayler:
I have found a playset of Punishing Fire to be excessive. It's a great card, but the Pyroblasts in the SB are what make the red splash a lot stronger imo, not the fires. In my experience with the card, you can definitely flood out on removal and not have enough beef. I would also say that Mindcensor is really weak and should probably be something else in your build. A notable card that is missing is Sylvan Library, which is a house.

I notice that a lot of people are not running Batterskull and the full set of Stoneforges, which is weird to me. Batterskull helps add to the threat density tremendously. 4 Knight, 4 GSZ, 4 Stoneforge (with Batterskull), and a few beefy 2-drop GSZ targets makes it really difficult for decks to keep up with the threats. Having a Batterskull in the 75 single-handedly tilts a lot of matchups more in my favor.

Batterskull is an amazing threat against Threshold decks, but SFM is easily answered in three ways: Spell Snare, Stifle, and removal. This makes it very unlikely to actually put down a Batterskull in any reasonable amount of time. Playing 4 SFM won't help this either, and ends up hurting you in the matchups where it's weaker (Combo mainly). It might make sense for the SCG metagame this weekend, but overall I wouldn't extend it to 4 SFM unless I knew the metagame was very heavy on Stoneblade decks.

I'm in favor of Batterskull MD for the time being.


@Esper:
Yeah I mean I get the concept of E Tutor being card disadvantage, but Choke flat-out wins the game against a lot of decks, even the uber-slow UW decks. I don't know how people are having success against UW without 5 Choke and 3 Pyroblast post SB. UW and BUG are COMPLETELY different matchups in games 2 and 3.

Tight play, Thrun, and knowing how to equip Gaddock Teeg to Sword of Light & Shadow given an opportunity.

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 06:14 PM
@rukcus: Haha yeah true... He still had the opportunity to E Tutor for the Choke that was Cliqued away instead of a Jitte on top of all the other mistakes. That would have ended the game pretty quickly... I will say, however, that Thrun and tight play are not necessarily going to do anything against Wrath of God. And good luck sticking a Teeg for any amount of time against 4 Swords, 3-4 Paths, and 4 Snapcasters.

Koby
12-06-2011, 06:19 PM
@rukcus: Haha yeah true... He still had the opportunity to E Tutor for the Choke that was Cliqued away instead of a Jitte on top of all the other mistakes. That would have ended the game pretty quickly... I will say, however, that Thrun and tight play are not necessarily going to do anything against Wrath of God. And good luck sticking a Teeg for any amount of time against 4 Swords, 3-4 Paths, and 4 Snapcasters.

That's why Mother of Runes is important. It's hard to directly measure her worth since you won't see much removal cast when she resolves, but having her out is vital.

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 06:29 PM
That's why Mother of Runes is important. It's hard to directly measure her worth since you won't see much removal cast when she resolves, but having her out is vital.

Oh yes, I completely agree. But it isn't an unusual play for them to Swords Teeg, Snapcaster Swords back in response to Mom. Followed up by a Wrath on their turn... Not good. I'm not saying the matchup is unbeatable or even bad, it's simply worse than if you ran a bunch of Chokes and Pyroblasts.

I consider these to be the most popular decks right now, in no particular order:
RUG
BUG
UW
Maverick
Reanimator
Merfolk

Pyroblast is insane in this metagame, as is having a stupid number of Chokes.

Note: In the Swords on Teeg example, I am not suggesting it's the same Swords haha. Just giving an example of what happens when you play against a deck that runs 8 Swords and 4 Snapcasters

Koby
12-06-2011, 06:42 PM
OK< I understand your point. The reasoning for E-tutor in the sideboard is to "cheat" on the amount of hate. Against such a metagame, it would just be better to run MORE Choke and no Tutors. Reanimator might cause the biggest headache with such a plan, but luckily we can beat them with Karakas, Knight, and StP.

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 06:49 PM
OK< I understand your point. The reasoning for E-tutor in the sideboard is to "cheat" on the amount of hate. Against such a metagame, it would just be better to run MORE Choke and no Tutors. Reanimator might cause the biggest headache with such a plan, but luckily we can beat them with Karakas, Knight, and StP.

I agree. I would sort of like to cut something for a 4th Choke, but looking at my list, I just don't think I can do it. I do like boarding out Stoneforges in some of these matchups where getting Batterskull is not a good plan with double the removal, so being able to snag the Feast and Famine is a decent use for the tutor against BUG. I've had success with making the opponent's Spell Snares pretty lackluster post-SB. The BEST thing an opponent can do (for me) is board out Forces and keep in Spell Snares, which a ton of players end up doing when they bring in all their removal. This makes the Choke plus blast plan truly insane, and at that point you can win with GSZ and Knights.

bakofried
12-06-2011, 07:33 PM
A few quick questions:
Does one board in Choke against Merfolk? I only ask this question because of Vial.
If one has a Zenith, a few lands, and, say, a Mystic/Pridemage/Mother of Runes against a storm-based deck, should one play out the Zenith turn one, or hold it until turn 3? And does this significantly change on the play or the draw? Or will you be dead before it's a necessary question?

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 07:38 PM
A few quick questions:
Does one board in Choke against Merfolk? I only ask this question because of Vial.
If one has a Zenith, a few lands, and, say, a Mystic/Pridemage/Mother of Runes against a storm-based deck, should one play out the Zenith turn one, or hold it until turn 3? And does this significantly change on the play or the draw? Or will you be dead before it's a necessary question?

I do not board in Choke against merfolk. That is a sketchy hand against storm if the lands don't do anything fun (Wasteland). 9 times out of 10 they will make you discard the Zenith before turn 3 if you try to wait.

Koby
12-06-2011, 08:14 PM
A few quick questions:
Does one board in Choke against Merfolk? I only ask this question because of Vial.
If one has a Zenith, a few lands, and, say, a Mystic/Pridemage/Mother of Runes against a storm-based deck, should one play out the Zenith turn one, or hold it until turn 3? And does this significantly change on the play or the draw? Or will you be dead before it's a necessary question?

If I'm playing against ANT/TES on the play, I would go for Mother of Runes then hope to topdeck Canonist or buy enough time for GSZ->Gaddock Teeg. That hand generally does nothing against Turn 2/3 combo decks however.

I wouldn't board in Choke against Merfolk. I normally don't even board in anything at all, except for Maze of Ith and extra removal (Path to Exile).

Patrunkenphat7
12-06-2011, 08:47 PM
If I'm playing against ANT/TES on the play, I would go for Mother of Runes then hope to topdeck Canonist or buy enough time for GSZ->Gaddock Teeg. That hand generally does nothing against Turn 2/3 combo decks however.

I wouldn't board in Choke against Merfolk. I normally don't even board in anything at all, except for Maze of Ith and extra removal (Path to Exile).

I board in Pyroblasts :smile:

Derayler
12-06-2011, 08:49 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys. The new list is getting to where I think I want to be.

Same mana base as before, 23 Land

1 SoFaI
1 SoFaF
1 Jitte

3 Mystic
2 BoP
3 Noble
4 KotR
4 MoR
1 Ooze
1 Thrun
1 Teeg
2 Pridemage

4 Swords
3 Punishing Fire
4 GSZ
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

The only thing I did not do was put a Batterskull in the main deck because I feel that it is not as good as the swords over the course of a game. I though a second pridemage would be strong to fight all of the blade decks I suspect to show. I would have no problem swapping on of the equipment for the Batterskull if someone explained which much ups the Batterskull is much better than one of the swords, (keeping in mind that Tempo Rug usually kills mystic). I also added a second BoP due to my want for another mana accelerator and without Mindcensors the flying is good with swords too.

The only thing I would like to know about the SB is if an enlightened tutor package is better tan just playing different hate cards. After this it should be easy to build my SB and my list for the Invitational will be locked in.

Esper3k
12-06-2011, 08:50 PM
I also don't board Choke against Merfolk. With Aether Vial, Force, and Daze, they can actually cast quite a few spells without using islands. Even Coralhelm and Dismember can be used via Wasteland / Mutavault. It's usually just too slow against them. Like others have said, extra spot removal is usually what you want to bring in. I'll usually cut Pridemages and other worse creatures.

_erbs_
12-06-2011, 10:28 PM
@Tempo topic
Yes you can say that it depends on there hand and if they are on the draw or play. Yes on the play you can somehow have the upper hand assuming you get a good mana ramp start.

But, its not all about tempo or stopping mav's mana production, a good rug player can easily see through if your lacking on mana or just go for the straight up kill and bash your face with there creatures.

Again i will point out that only KOTR is the only creature mav has that can decently race rug. Mav is very much dependent on stf or equips, like what i've posted earlier mav's creature list needs more muscle for me. Im still testing a different route eventhough i have a good game against rug now 70/30 in my favor, im still iffy about the deck due to its consistency. I've only been testing against rug, bug and bant.

But if i would revert back to gsz build, i would definitely put in 2 terravore and maybe add 1 behemoth sledge in the equip list and maybe cut solas for it.

Esper3k
12-06-2011, 11:15 PM
If you're going to start cutting GSZ from the deck and add guys that are only beef like Tarmogoyf, you're really getting away from the Maverick utility creature / flexibility approach.

Zoo takes the pure Aggro + removal approach and just smashes the tempo decks.

_erbs_
12-06-2011, 11:19 PM
If you're going to start cutting GSZ from the deck and add guys that are only beef like Tarmogoyf, you're really getting away from the Maverick utility creature / flexibility approach.

Zoo takes the pure Aggro + removal approach and just smashes the tempo decks.

I've posted my build several pages, ive replaced
4 gsz
1 arbor
2 ooze
1 ranger
1 thrun

For
4 vials
4 serra avengers
2 spellskite
3 rishandan port

BlackStarDeceiver
12-07-2011, 03:46 AM
Still, i see no reason at all to cut one of the strongest cards of the deck. Keep in GSZ and play it alongside vial. Fabian Moyschewitz, one of the higher rated german eternal players just used a decent list in Nuremberg click (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7218&iddeck=52564).

That's about the lis twe have been playing before the printing of GSZ as a green splashed DnT before MAverick was actually taken up to top Tier via Green Suns Zenith and that deck became significantly better with the GSZ, even though you miss the vials from time to time.

I fully understand your approach but i don't see how Avenger helps against RUG.

schniggaz
12-07-2011, 04:22 AM
Did you look at the date of the tournament? That is the list we played in germany in april.
But it had too many different directions. For gsz you need a good manabase, for vial you need critter. And once you draw vial, noble and lands you can not put enough pressure on the table.

_erbs_
12-07-2011, 04:40 AM
Still, i see no reason at all to cut one of the strongest cards of the deck. Keep in GSZ and play it alongside vial. Fabian Moyschewitz, one of the higher rated german eternal players just used a decent list in Nuremberg click (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7218&iddeck=52564).

That's about the lis twe have been playing before the printing of GSZ as a green splashed DnT before MAverick was actually taken up to top Tier via Green Suns Zenith and that deck became significantly better with the GSZ, even though you miss the vials from time to time.

I fully understand your approach but i don't see how Avenger helps against RUG.

Hello,
I know that GSZ is really a strong card, no doubt about it and gives you flexibility on your creature list. I've used it for a long time before deciding to put them a the sidelines.

Like what i've explained above, gsz will never be a dead card as compared to vial, and fetches you creatures you need like (ooze, kotr, ranger or pridemage) they are the most common targets next maybe mana dorks.

Im still undecided in which path im going to take but like what i've said if im going to go back to gsz, i will try behemoth sledge replacing solas and add terravores in the mix to my build.

Thanks for the list, as much as i like mangara i feel his too slow especially without the taxing effects of DT, for me it makes your deck slower, mav is slow as it is, adding him for me is not my cup of tea. Maybe i would rather add fiend hunter over mangara

Now, how do serra avenger win against rug ?
- It gives you a good evasion creature especially when you have an equipment online.
- Blocks delvers thus stalling them
- Kotr, ooze with equip, without lifelink and trample is just painful see being block by random creatures and flying delvers go for the kill, then a double bolt via snapcaster then its GG

No matter how i see it, mav is just too equipment dependent, without equips, your creatures are somewhat mediocre. Yes you have mother of runes so your fat kotr can attack but not all the time you can let your mother go online.

Serra Avenger paired with exalted gives you a decent clock just like what vendilion clique does to bant.., making your 2-3 noble more effective as compared to land creatures.

In my initial list i used 3 gsz 4 vials but something was not right as i only had few targets. Thus i removed it.

I hope fellow mav players just give the build a few spin then ask yourselves was the changes worth it as compared to the traditional mav list.

If your MU against tempo rug does not improve or against any blue based decks, ask yourself would GSZ be alot better than vial ?? If you answered yes, then maybe there is something wrong with what im seeing in my playtest. Like what ive said im still iffy on the build bec of consistency issues as compared to the traditional mav which just plays the same every game.

My updated list

Lands [23]
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 karakas
1 gaes cradle
1 maze of ith
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 plains
1 forest

Spells [11]
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 sofi
1 solas
1 jitte

Creatures [26]
4 mother of runes
3 noble hiearch
1 birds of paradise
3 qasali pridemage
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
2 mirran crusader
2 spellskite

Fatal
12-07-2011, 05:10 AM
I don't see your problems with RUGs just side in more removal, without creatures they can't kill you enough fast.. additional PtE on sb and problem resolve. The key is to playing good around stifle and kill early attacker nothing more.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-07-2011, 05:44 AM
Did you look at the date of the tournament? That is the list we played in germany in april.
But it had too many different directions. For gsz you need a good manabase, for vial you need critter. And once you draw vial, noble and lands you can not put enough pressure on the table.

Thanks for pointing that out, maybe i was a bit tired :D Missed the date somehow. Anyways i dont see the point against RUG at all. When playing Canadian theres one deck i don't want to face, and thats Maverick ( well besides MonoB :D).

Serra trades with delver on defense and eats bolts like a champ. Maybe you should take a look at the DnT thread because thats what you are creating there, Green and Taxes.

Esper3k
12-07-2011, 08:36 AM
I've posted my build several pages, ive replaced
4 gsz
1 arbor
2 ooze
1 ranger
1 thrun

For
4 vials
4 serra avengers
2 spellskite
3 rishandan port

As much as I love Serra Avenger, I don't think it's very good right now in a meta full of lightning bolts.

Against Canadian Thresh, I find a lot of the cards you took out very powerful. Thrun blocks Tarmogoyfs all day and with 1 Exalted creature or equipment, will punch through your average 'Goyf. Scryb Ranger blocks Delvers and makes life hell for them if you have an active Mother. Ooze both shrinks their Goyfs / neuters Snapcasters while gaining you life at the same time to keep you out of burn / delver range. We've already spoken of the benefits of a T1 GSZ against that deck as well.

===========================

Oh, my tournament report for the Beta Savannah tournament (34 players) I played in last weekend is up in the tournament reports section now.

from Cairo
12-07-2011, 09:05 AM
No matter how i see it, mav is just too equipment dependent, without equips, your creatures are somewhat mediocre.

The solution to this is to cut the 4x GSZ that gives one virtually 4 more cards to draw that are Knight of the Reliquary/Terravore/Ooze? I can't see how drawing into dead midgame Aether Vials is helpful compared to Green Sun's Zenithing into w/e creature would most effect board state.

I like Serra Avenger, but outside it's synergy with Aether Vial it's pretty vanilla. A 3-4 drop 3/3 that trades with a bunch of 1cc creatures/removal - Delver, Nimble, Nacatl, Bolt effects, etc. I've played the card in Death and Taxes and a couple of them can go the distance for sure, or if you get a Sword or Jitte on it, than it will own the red zone, but I think when you have Green at your disposal there's better options available.

For instance, I'd rather have another Scryb Ranger. It can hold off Delver, gives any of our creatures vigilance, has phenomenal synergy with Mother of Runes and Knight, and protects Savannas.

I think your proposed cuts take away too much of Maverick's threat density. Even just considering the 4 Vials and 3 Ports over 4 GSZ, an Arbor and 2 utility guys - that's 6/60ths of the deck that you can draw into that's superfluous mana production. The Avengers can be good with Vial, but I think the GSZ package offers more.

Patrunkenphat7
12-07-2011, 12:23 PM
I feel like with Vial instead of GSZ, this deck becomes a "Green and Taxes" deck. The threat denstity and 8 one-mana ramp cards is what makes Maverick unique, and GSZ is the central engine for this.

Koby
12-07-2011, 12:44 PM
With regards to Vial decks, I think that :w::b: decks have more to offer than :g::w: versions. Basically, with Vial you need to design the deck for a specific CMC (typically 2). Green doesn't have much to offer in that department aside from hate-bears. Black gives better (but not the best) tools, and a combination of B/W is probably the best.

For anyone going into the Invitational, I think maindeck Ethersworn Canonist is the way to go. If you can protect it (with SoLS or with Mom) that shuts out both UW and RUG tempo from utilizing Snapcaster effectively. It's also just tits maindeck against any unknown Combo deck.

SUCK IT Taigo!

lordofthepit
12-07-2011, 01:30 PM
For anyone going into the Invitational, I think maindeck Ethersworn Canonist is the way to go. If you can protect it (with SoLS or with Mom) that shuts out both UW and RUG tempo from utilizing Snapcaster effectively. It's also just tits maindeck against any unknown Combo deck.

SUCK IT Taigo!

I'm currently inclined to try out some maindeck Ethersworn Canoninsts. But has anyone had problem with its lack of synergy with Punishing Fires (for those who do run it)? Or do the scenarios where these two cards are useful not really overlap, so that the dissynergy is tolerable?

Koby
12-07-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm currently inclined to try out some maindeck Ethersworn Canoninsts. But has anyone had problem with its lack of synergy with Punishing Fires (for those who do run it)? Or do the scenarios where these two cards are useful not really overlap, so that the dissynergy is tolerable?

The two strategies don't converge. Punishing Fire is generally better against aggressive decks, and Canonist is better against combo and Snapcasters. You could make it work (especially with SoFF to provide nearly limitless mana).

Canonist is better for stock GW lists rather than GWr lists running Fires.

lochlan
12-07-2011, 02:26 PM
maindeck Ethersworn Canonist

Given your list, if you put Canonist into the maindeck what would you take out?

iScare
12-07-2011, 02:29 PM
It would be a good idea to MD canonist, but wouldn't it be hard to fetch it unless we board in E-Tutor or possibly Wordly tutor? So if we go 2 Canonist and 2 E-tutor/wordly tutor, what 4 cards from Mav would be take out for them in the MD?

Esper3k
12-07-2011, 02:55 PM
I've tried out maindeck Canonists and the problem I've had is that protecting them is fairly tough against Canadian Thresh due to the amount of removal they have. If you can't get an active Mother to protect it, it generally just get Lightning Bolted then they use their Snapcaster.

Also, just from my experience, when it gets Spell Snared, you get really sad because their Goyf just got Instant, Creature, and Artifact into the yard.

I really wanted it to work out, but it wasn't as good as I was hoping it to be.

Philipp2293
12-07-2011, 03:30 PM
I'm too lazy to look Rukcus list up right now, but for testing purposes I would cut the Mindcensors.

Also, running E. Tutor MD to fetch Canonist seems horrible since Spell Snare is everywhere.

Right now I feel that 2 Ooze MD are necessary, they do a wonderful job against Snapcasters. :smile:

lochlan
12-07-2011, 03:36 PM
I'm too lazy to look Rukcus list up right now, but for testing purposes I would cut the Mindcensors.

Rukcus isn't running Mindcensors in his list. Also his list is in his signature, one click away on this very page.

Koby
12-07-2011, 03:36 PM
I've cut the Mindcensors to make room for 2nd Ooze about a month ago. I've since cut Eternal Witness for a 2nd Scryb Ranger, and most recently, cut 1 (of 2) Sylvan Library for a Tarmogoyf.

More threats means less impact from Spell Snare.

EDIT: And yes, Ooze is fucking awesome! It finds so much utility in Maverick (or GSZ based deck really).

Philipp2293
12-07-2011, 03:38 PM
Dear sirs, excuse my lazyness.

zrbrt
12-07-2011, 04:34 PM
I'm trying to figure out if I should run one Absolute Law in the sideboard for this weekend.. I'm playing the rukcus build and sideboard, thinking about -1 [something?] +1 absolute law.

I'm not worried about the traditional (at this point) RUG matchup, but moreso that U/R burn thing.

I have no time to test this whatsoever, and I don't even know if it's that great of an idea.

Input?

Koby
12-07-2011, 04:56 PM
In all honesty, Thorns would be better against U/R burn lists than Absolute Law. The card is so narrow and provides very little help in that matchup against Delver of Secrets anyway.

Possible changes to the sideboard would include the inclusion of
Purify the Grave
Honorable Passage
Aegis of Honor
Circle of Protection: Blue
Story Circle
Arena
Dueling Grounds

And even those are a stretch in usefulness.

I do want to consider Behemoth Sledge as it's slightly easier to equip than Batterskull, and Armadillo Cloak is just awesome! (Ask Kibler!) But I don't feel that it's better than the 3rd option (Batterskull/SoFF/SoLS).

The best way to fight back against Threshold is to play more removal. Path to Exile #1 and #2 would be the best against these decks. It's nice that they don't have any basics to recover from the drawback. For the red versions, +3 REB should do the trick, leaving StP to handle Goyfs.

Patrunkenphat7
12-07-2011, 05:20 PM
I've cut the Mindcensors to make room for 2nd Ooze about a month ago. I've since cut Eternal Witness for a 2nd Scryb Ranger, and most recently, cut 1 (of 2) Sylvan Library for a Tarmogoyf.

More threats means less impact from Spell Snare.

EDIT: And yes, Ooze is fucking awesome! It finds so much utility in Maverick (or GSZ based deck really).

I have found Sylvan Library to be one of the best cards in the deck; it is especially good against decks like BUG and UW, a couple of the top decks right now. I would run second Library over second Ooze and DEFINITELY over second Scryb Ranger.

Koby
12-07-2011, 05:27 PM
I have found Sylvan Library to be one of the best cards in the deck; it is especially good against decks like BUG and UW, a couple of the top decks right now. I would run second Library over second Ooze and DEFINITELY over second Scryb Ranger.

Don't get me wrong, it's great against UW and B/x decks. It's mediocre against RUG & UR, and just average everywhere else. Against Tempo (which, I'm guessing is going to be the largest segment of SCG Invitational), it's not a card that I'm thrilled to be casting on turn 2. Given a choice between casting a creature and casting Sylvan Library against CanThresh, I would elect to play the creature.

sir
12-07-2011, 07:42 PM
I'm trying to figure out if I should run one Absolute Law in the sideboard for this weekend.. I'm playing the rukcus build and sideboard, thinking about -1 [something?] +1 absolute law.

I tested this a bit. I was enthusiastic about the idea but I agree with rukcus. You can deal with Lavamancers other ways and Absolute Law is narrow -- you're probably better off with something broader in the slot that still helps, like Thorn of Amethyst, Path to Exile, a second sword, etc.

You guys remember this list with Batterskull in SB and Mortarpod in main as the third equipment?: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7144&iddeck=51895

I was testing that card (Mortarpod) in SB instead of a second Path to Exile and, besides being hilarious, it was kind of nice. I've only played with it a little and I won't go so far as suggest it, but something funny to experiment with if you like.

Water_Wizard
12-07-2011, 09:24 PM
The best way to fight back against Threshold is to play more removal. Path to Exile #1 and #2 would be the best against these decks. It's nice that they don't have any basics to recover from the drawback. For the red versions, +3 REB should do the trick, leaving StP to handle Goyfs.

For the Red versions, I think 2 REB is enough. Punishing Fire wrecks Delver.

supa_tim
12-07-2011, 09:41 PM
For the Red versions, I think 2 REB is enough. Punishing Fire wrecks Delver.
Wouldn't REBs be more for snapcasters? Yes, punishing fires is awesome against delvers, but countering a snappy is way better than simply killing it. I'd run at least three.

_erbs_
12-07-2011, 10:08 PM
@UGR topic
Just wondering hows the match up of fire mav against RUG ?
Since you guys are saying that the additional 3 PTE on the side vs RUG is a good plan, whats your win % against them ? is it around 70% ?

@Snapcaster Issue / Combo
Like what the other posters had poster, canonist is much better on a GW list over red mav, you may want to try spellskite, grand abolisher if you guys are having problems with with canonist.

I ran 2 spellskite in my list and its a house vs RUG decks and ensures you that you can equip your creatures safely.

Koby
12-07-2011, 11:22 PM
REB targets Snapcaster in flight, which is better than Shock to kill it. 3 PTE seems excessive for limited SB space. 2 is usually enough considering that once they lose their clocks we have free reign to attack with equipment.

Spellskite would be good... if we ran Doran. more zero or low power utility creatures is starting to hurt the aggressive side.

Neuad
12-07-2011, 11:47 PM
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [SOM] Plains (1)
1 [SOM] Forest (1)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [COM] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [COM] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll


The list I plan on bringing with me to the Open on Sunday, and some win-a-boxes on Saturday. I just feel Aether Vial is too broken to pass up. . and so many people can't deal with Serra Avengers it's not even funny. .toss on some equip and it's over.

I don't know how big to expect reanimator vs dredge. . . reanimator huge in my meta which is why those are Faerie Macabre's over Crypts or something.

Anything you guys would recommend except going to a GSZ list?

_erbs_
12-08-2011, 12:28 AM
REB targets Snapcaster in flight, which is better than Shock to kill it. 3 PTE seems excessive for limited SB space. 2 is usually enough considering that once they lose their clocks we have free reign to attack with equipment.

Spellskite would be good... if we ran Doran. more zero or low power utility creatures is starting to hurt the aggressive side.

Would the 2 PTE bring your win percent to 65-75% against RUG ? If all of you would say yes, then i guess there is really something wrong on how i play mav. Because my experience says adding 2 PTE and cutting 2 pridemage for it during g2 and g3 will not give you a 75% chance of winning against them especially on g3 where you are on the draw.

For me things i consider before i good my hand especially against RUG are 2 lands 1 fetch 1 mor or 1 mana dork, if i happen to draw 2 fetch and just mor on the draw i will surely mull, having that said getting what i want becomes harder and harder each mulligan.


@Neuad
I've tried using sylvan before but i didn't liked it because i feel SDT is much more beneficial, if you have lifelink or lifegain then i can say sylvan is much better over SDT. In my earlier build i've tried running teegs but i didn't like him seems off and weak. Tarmogoyf right now seems to be a good choice as alot of people are running sorcery thus making your deck less reliant to equips as compared to the traditional mav.

Im still not closing my doors on the GSZ build as like what i've posted earlier vials are dead draws as compared to GSZ. But i will test behemoth sledge and add tarmo & terravore to my creature base mix (gsz build).

Water_Wizard
12-08-2011, 12:46 AM
. . and so many people can't deal with Serra Avengers it's not even funny. .toss on some equip and it's over.

I don't know how big to expect reanimator vs dredge. . . reanimator huge in my meta which is why those are Faerie Macabre's over Crypts or something.

Anything you guys would recommend except going to a GSZ list?
If you expect a lot of reanimator/dredge, then definitely throw Scavenging Ooze in your list. Also, consider moving Bojuka Bog main - also helps against opposing KotR.

Serra Avenger = Delver and Lightning bolt? See posts above.

Patrunkenphat7
12-08-2011, 08:53 AM
I just want to point out that when people are saying 'REB' it should really be Pyroblast. Pyroblast is better now that Phantasmal Image is a relevant card in Legacy.

Artlee
12-08-2011, 10:28 AM
I just want to point out that when people are saying 'REB' it should really be Pyroblast. Pyroblast is better now that Phantasmal Image is a relevant card in Legacy.

Haha, are you Joe on Channelfireball (See comment #2)?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-being-a-better-brewer/

Patrunkenphat7
12-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Haha, are you Joe on Channelfireball (See comment #2)?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-being-a-better-brewer/

I am actually Patrunkenphat7 on Channelfireball. I did make this same comment on the RUG vs. UW article; Joe copied me! haha

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/running-the-legacy-gauntlet-rug-delver-vs-uw-stoneforge/

conboy31
12-08-2011, 12:56 PM
Rebs should be pyro's, but to me, typing in caps and your overall tone came off as a tad juvenile.

Patrunkenphat7
12-08-2011, 05:31 PM
Rebs should be pyro's, but to me, typing in caps and your overall tone came off as a tad juvenile.

Um you can read the other posts in which I was extremely nice about it. All previous posts were ignored as the writers continue to make the same mistakes... It's a little annoying when you read an article about achieving deck-building perfection, and you see that it completely ignores all of the recent posts in other articles to create a suboptimal list. Also in that article he was quoting other people's remarks from previous articles. It made me sad.

Koby
12-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Ya good point about Pyroblast. In the general sense I write REB for shortness, but Pyroblast is preferred.

Koby
12-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Channelfireball has a video series playing RUG Tempo (Snappy) vs a rather poor build of Maverick (blame Matt Nass). LSV plays the Tempo deck, and gets demolished. I think that it's generally LSV's play style rather than the deck, but even then Maverick still shows to have a good matchup against Tempo. I think the match really comes down to whether or not Tempo has turn 1 Delver (or even turn 2/3 delvers back to back).

Linky: RUG Tempo vs Maverick (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/running-the-legacy-gauntlet-rug-delver-vs-gw-maverick/) [channelfireball.com]

Also, the Hatfields put together a compilation of the last 5 SCG events, and the most relevant information about Maverick from that article:

"Another one of those decks is G/W Maverick, which had a strong win percentage that gets much stronger if you limit your attention to generic lists [GW strictly - rukcus]. Those seven players won more than 58% of their matches."

Linky: Too Much Info by the Hatfields (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23244_Too_Much_Information_Indianapolis_Nashville_Baltimore_Kansas_City_Las_Vegas.html) [starcitygames.com]

Discuss.

Esper3k
12-09-2011, 01:33 PM
Weird, I read that article just this morning off a link on another website.

I thought both the Canadian lists and the Maverick lists were pretty bad, but I think the matchup is favorable for us anyways (since you know, we prey on the non-combo blue decks).

bakofried
12-09-2011, 02:21 PM
I'm wondering how one should go about building Maverick specifically for the SCG Open/Invitational Circuit, out of curiosity.

Philipp2293
12-09-2011, 02:27 PM
Gear your MD towards beating U reliably, and have enough hate for Reanimator and Dredge (!) in the SB would be your best bets IMO. Maybe you can bet on dodging your combo MUs and gear your deck more towards the above mentioned MUs.

Julian23
12-09-2011, 02:39 PM
One of the best sb cards in the current meta is Surgical Extraction. Most people I know already run 3-4. Actually, I think this deck has a positive matchup against anything that doesn't play Show and Tell. However, I'm far more concerned about the mirror than about anything else. It all comes down to untapping with as many Mother of Runes as possible, which I don't really like. Oh, and Aven Mindcensor, of course.

Koby
12-09-2011, 02:39 PM
I'm wondering how one should go about building Maverick specifically for the SCG Open/Invitational Circuit, out of curiosity.

My thought process going in Vegas:
1) Expect blue (and tons of it)
2) Expect Burn (since Arizona players love to cast Lava Spike) - this one was regional
3) Expect Combo (regional again, and this includes Reanimator)

Based on those three conditions, I reasoned that I wanted extra Ooze, both to see more copies as well as still have one after removal.

I was also expecting a fair amount of SFM decks, and wanted several copies of Qasali Pridemage. Aside from that, just maximize the amount of good cards in general (KotR, Mom, etc)

from Cairo
12-09-2011, 03:40 PM
I think the match really comes down to whether or not Tempo has turn 1 Delver (or even turn 2/3 delvers back to back).

Discuss.

Totally agree, Mav definitely has inevitability in this match up. Tempo needs an evasive clock and some disruption to stunt the board long enough to get there. Post board things like Submerge/Gut Shot (on Noble), or Rough//Tumble can be a beating, but in general if they're not applying pressure, Mav can slow roll.


One of the best sb cards in the current meta is Surgical Extraction. Most people I know already run 3-4. Actually, I think this deck has a positive matchup against anything that doesn't play Show and Tell. However, I'm far more concerned about the mirror than about anything else. It all comes down to untapping with as many Mother of Runes as possible, which I don't really like. Oh, and Aven Mindcensor, of course.

Surgical's definitely good, but this seems like a poor shell to use it in. Assuming GSZ and ETutor I think our hate is better accessed as a non-Instant. I've been happy with Scavenging Ooze and a Tormod's - facing Dredge, Reanimator and Snapcaster.dec.

I totally agree with the Show and Tell point. Faced off against that last week and managed to race a Progenitus once with Knight + Jitte, but it slapped me around the 2nd game and Emrakul got there game 3. Emrakul in general I'm less worried about, with Knight and Karakas we have some game against it, Progenitus not so much. I'm open to suggestions on outs, maybe Tariff, Retribution of the Meek or Topple - they're pretty narrow though. Kind of just hoping to dodge this match tbh.

In terms of fighting the mirror - if one is seeing alot of GW and UW Stoneblade, I think subbing the MD Batterskull w/ Sword of Light and Shadow can be pretty clutch. Giving dudes pro-Swords/Knight is a huge boost. The 2nd Scryb Ranger is also fire in conjunction with our tap-utility guys.

Derayler
12-09-2011, 03:51 PM
I really think that here in the States the GW version is better where in Europe the red splash is strong with Punishing Fire to give you the edge in the mirror.

Esper3k
12-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Against Progenitus, Phyrexian Metamorph / Ensnaring Bridge from the board works just fine. Both also double as hate against Reanimator as well.

Water_Wizard
12-09-2011, 04:03 PM
Also, the Hatfields put together a compilation of the last 5 SCG events, and the most relevant information about Maverick from that article:

"Another one of those decks is G/W Maverick, which had a strong win percentage that gets much stronger if you limit your attention to generic lists [GW strictly - rukcus]. Those seven players won more than 58% of their matches."

Linky: Too Much Info by the Hatfields (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23244_Too_Much_Information_Indianapolis_Nashville_Baltimore_Kansas_City_Las_Vegas.html) [starcitygames.com]

Discuss.

This quote only relates to the Vegas tournament (not Kansas City, Baltimore, Nashville or Indy). However, with the exception of Nashville, G/W Maverick actually did better than the above quoted statistic. Consider this:
Indy - 7 Pilots - 27-17-3 - Win % 60.64
Nashville - 2 Pilots (1 Generic (2-3) / 1 Taxes (3-4) ) combined Win % 41.67
Baltimore - 6 Pilots - 26-16-1 - Win % 61.63
Kansas City - 1 Pilot - 5-1-2 - Win % 75.00
Las Vegas - 9 Pilots - (7 Generic (27-19-1) / 1 +R (3-4) / 1 Birthing Pod (2-5-1) combined win % 53.23 (generic only 58.51)

I don't think we can rule out "non-generic" Maverick lists, as we only have a very small sample size (1 +R player out of 5 tournaments). If we look at Amsterdam, +R Mav did very well, for granted Europe is a different meta, but Americans played in Amsterdam as well.
Looking at the results from Indy, Baltimore, Kansas and Vegas, Maverick has almost a 60% win rate, which is great!
In dealing with any sample size this small, we have to account for variation. For example, did Maverick really get crushed in Nashville, or was it two inexperienced pilots, some bad match-ups or some bad luck (or a combination of all three?)
For example, our own ruckus piloted his Maverick deck to 7-2 in Vegas. What if ruckus plays another deck - all of a sudden, Mav drops to 20-17-1 - not as impressive. Furthermore, if ruckus played one of this Mav players with his other deck and wins, we're looking even lower (19-18-1 or 18-19-1). All I'm saying is that, while 5 tournaments sounds like a lot, statistically, it is still very small and prone to variance. It's the best we've got and it shows Maverick is a great deck versus the field and a contender.
The Hatfield's article predicts RUG Tempo and U/W Stoneblade are going to be popular in Charlotte - I think a red splash is nice against blue decks.

Water_Wizard
12-09-2011, 04:10 PM
Emrakul in general I'm less worried about, with Knight and Karakas we have some game against it, Progenitus not so much. I'm open to suggestions on outs, maybe Tariff, Retribution of the Meek or Topple - they're pretty narrow though. Kind of just hoping to dodge this match tbh.
I don't think Topple works - it targets and we can't target either Progenitus or Emrakul with a colored spell. Ensnaring Bridge works for me. Fits well in the tutor package and I don't think Show and Tell decks are going to be siding in lots of artifact hate. Metamorph is nice, but it's 1 and done. I also run the added benefits of Pyroblasts, so I have some chances to stop S&T in it's tracks.

Koby
12-09-2011, 04:12 PM
In terms of fighting the mirror - if one is seeing alot of GW and UW Stoneblade, I think subbing the MD Batterskull w/ Sword of Light and Shadow can be pretty clutch. Giving dudes pro-Swords/Knight is a huge boost. The 2nd Scryb Ranger is also fire in conjunction with our tap-utility guys.


I really think that here in the States the GW version is better where in Europe the red splash is strong with Punishing Fire to give you the edge in the mirror.


If we look at Amsterdam, +R Mav did very well, for granted Europe is a different meta, but Americans played in Amsterdam as well.
Looking at the results from Indy, Baltimore, Kansas and Vegas, Maverick has almost a 60% win rate, which is great!

The Hatfield's article predicts RUG Tempo and U/W Stoneblade are going to be popular in Charlotte - I think a red splash is nice against blue decks.

Against Tempo, I agree that Red is useful (but not necessarily needed unless something goes horribly wrong). I do agree with the trend, that the more W/x mid-ranged there is, the better Punishing Fires becomes. For the American metagame, GW should be robust enough to handle most low-threat Aggro-control decks, and still have enough tools to combat turn 3/4 combo decks as well.

If there's anything to gain from the performance at St Louis - play tight and think about plays for at least 2 seconds before you make them. Also, Gaddock Teeg is something worth protecting.

Water_Wizard
12-09-2011, 05:55 PM
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/running-the-legacy-gauntlet-rug-delver-vs-gw-maverick/

LSV pilots RUG Tempo vs. GW Maverick. I haven't watched the videos, but from the comments, he says he got murdered.

Patrunkenphat7
12-10-2011, 10:59 AM
GWr Maverick just beat UW Blade on SCG Invitational coverage. UW player punted when he Pathed the Mav's Hierarch during his mainphase (he thought Mindcensor effect was both players...). The Mav player then followed up with a Teeg that left the UW player with a dead Wrath in hand.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-10-2011, 11:02 AM
Funny as always to see the people talk crap and tweet about this deck just because it doesn't use Brainstorm and meanwhile they recognize that this GW Zoo pile just won against their UW Blade Baby ;)

Patrunkenphat7
12-10-2011, 11:10 AM
Funny as always to see the people talk crap and tweet about this deck just because it doesn't use Brainstorm and meanwhile they recognize that this GW Zoo pile just won against their UW Blade Baby ;)

Haha hellz yes. I love Brainstorm just as much as the next Legacy guy, but this deck lays the smackdown on the tier 1 blue strategies.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I mean i love blue, but it is indeed pretty embarassing to dismiss every nonblue deck without knowing what it actually does, how it works and how it is played. Just because a bunch of people failed at SCG before makes the deck bad ^^

bakofried
12-10-2011, 03:48 PM
So....Gerry Thompson is playing GWr Maverick at the Invitational. Interesting.

Rizso
12-10-2011, 03:48 PM
Gerry Thompson and michael Jacob are 4-0 each after the legacy portion of SCGI with GW-Maverick with Punishing Fire.

Koby
12-10-2011, 04:41 PM
Damn I slept through the earlier rounds, I'll have to check it out when the archives goes up.

I never would have thought that GerryT plays a deck w/o Brainstorm...

from Cairo
12-10-2011, 05:13 PM
Damn I slept through the earlier rounds, I'll have to check it out when the archives goes up.

I never would have thought that GerryT plays a deck w/o Brainstorm...

He played GWb Survival at the SCG opens last year when it was the best deck. I'd guess like most pros they favor decks that give them choices/opportunities to outplay opponents (generally Blue based) but will delve into non-Blue when it's clearly well positioned.

Augustas
12-10-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm just wondering, was Ranger of Eos ever considered atleast as a 1-off?

from Cairo
12-10-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm just wondering, was Ranger of Eos ever considered atleast as a 1-off?

To serve what purpose? It can pull up double Mother of Runes (or Noble), but for 4 mana that seems unexciting. The only way to really widen Ranger of Eos' utility would be to include more diverse 1 drop options, but GSZ fills this tutor-for-utility slot more mana efficiently and with less constraint on the targets. At 4 mana Elspeth can provide similar effects of clogging up ground combat with dorks, but can also be used aggressively to jump a KotR and set up a 2 turn clock. Eos could be neat after a sweeper effect, but I think the SFM into Batterskull or a Sword can provide similar recovery routes. The GSZ package also provides a top to the curve with more utility - Witness/Knight/Terravore against agro Thrun or proactively Gaddock against control. I think Ranger of Eos is just too narrow and not bomby enough for the cost.

Esper3k
12-10-2011, 10:30 PM
Hah yeah - I just love how this deck tells blue decks: every time you Force of Will, I win.

Ziveeman
12-11-2011, 01:55 AM
My thought process going in Vegas:
1) Expect blue (and tons of it)
2) Expect Burn (since Arizona players love to cast Lava Spike) - this one was regional
3) Expect Combo (regional again, and this includes Reanimator)

Based on those three conditions, I reasoned that I wanted extra Ooze, both to see more copies as well as still have one after removal.

I was also expecting a fair amount of SFM decks, and wanted several copies of Qasali Pridemage. Aside from that, just maximize the amount of good cards in general (KotR, Mom, etc)

Just a note (since I'm from Arizona), no one really plays burn here in Arizona. SCG: LA in March was just a fun experiment, especially those who don't have Legacy decks, to kinda screw with the metagame and have fun - I guess it worked :P

Koby
12-11-2011, 02:31 AM
Just a note (since I'm from Arizona), no one really plays burn here in Arizona. SCG: LA in March was just a fun experiment, especially those who don't have Legacy decks, to kinda screw with the metagame and have fun - I guess it worked :P

Burn was also a large component of the Vegas metagame, being top of the most played decks.

Neuad
12-12-2011, 01:33 AM
I've been interested in G/W since my friend Mike picked it up after Survival was banned, and no he didn't play Vengvine!, and vial is one of my favorite cards, and broken as hell. . . .especially when your deck is all 2 drops. I finished building it 2 weeks ago when I realized I didnt like control, and combo was just a horrid decision with all the blue in the format. I was doing well with it in local events, including 3 top 4 splits in the 3 events I played it in.

I will try out the green sun version soon, but Serra Avenger is just so broken and powerful I don't know if I want to give her up.


Ended up going 7-2 and took 18th on breakers in the SCG Open Charlotte with

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Savannah
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [SOM] Plains (1)
1 [SOM] Forest (1)
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [COM] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [COM] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll


Round 1 - Got paired against some draft champion that was in Draft Open 1 and he conceded to me. Free win!

Round 2 - Hive Mind. Won 2-1. Ethersworn Canonist, Knight off of a Show and Tell to counter Emrakul, and him mulling to 3 game 3 really helped. 2-1

Round 3 - Hive Mind. Won 2-1. Again, ethersworn off vial, and karakas in my opener won me game 2. Game 3 I had Forest, Savannah, Canopy, 2 vials at 2, Ethersworn, Teeg, and some other guys in play. He hard casts Hivemind and passes. I draw. No KGrip or Qasali. Draw off Canopy and windmill the Qasali down. He extends his hand. 2-1

Round 4 - Slivers. Crystalline Sliver is really good when my hand is Swords x3, Path. Fuck this deck. 1-2

Round 5 - Reanimator. He was new to Legacy and I just beat him down vialing in guys and beating down. 2-1

Round 6 - Reanimator. This guy was a good player and I knew what he was on. Lost game ond. Won game 2 thanks to Sword of Light and Shadow on a goyf. Kept a shakey hand on game 3 and it didn't pay off. 1-2

Round 7 - U/R Delver. I played against this deck 2 rounds in a row in the Legacy Challenge and went 4-0 in games. They run out of steam and I stabilized and beat them down. The same thing happened game 1 and 3. Game 2 he burned me out while countering my relevant spells. 2-1.

Round 8 - U/W Stoneblade. I kept Savannah and Waste + creatures and never saw another land and kind of went on tilt. Thrun won me game 2. Game 3 I was able to equip a Light and Shadow to Goyf after giving it pro blue with Mom and swing in for the win on my final turn. 2-1

Round 9 - Burn. I sat next to this guy in round 2 or 3 so I knew what he was on. Game 1 I was able to fetch around Price. He fireblasted a Serra to stop Jitte from getting counters with only 2 mountains in play. He managed to top deck the next land but I had a Library in play and was able to find another creature easily and get Jitte active. Game 2 he burned me out wayyyyyyy too fast. Game 3 I got a jitte active and he had a Figure of Destiny to my 2 moms, Serra, Qasali x2, Teeg, vial at 2, Library and Jitte. He goes Figure, Figure, go. I get Jitte active on a creature and the game is over. 2-1

Thankfully those were Figure's and not burn spells or I would have lost the game.

I know this isn't the most in depth report, I didn't take very good notes or anything so this is done off memory. If you have any questions I will answer to the best of my memory.

Props:
Aether Vial. People forget how broken this card is and I just pump out tons of creatures and bash face.
Serra Avenger. So many people cannot deal with a 3/3 Flying vigilance. Especially with Equipment.
Sylvan Library. Although one of my problems is I need to learn this card more aggressively, it helped soooo much because people never counter it and I just dig and dig and dig.

Flops
Expensive food/Lack of options at convention centers
Slivers. F this deck so hard.
Burn being X-2 in the final round, I was so worried walking up knowing this guy was playing burn.
Downtown Charlotte restaurants being extremely expensive.

Next up, learning to use Sylvan Library and Horizon Canopy more aggressively.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-12-2011, 02:42 AM
Went 5-1 yesterday with a pretty european stock list (with Mindcensor etc.)

2-0 against Nic Fit
0-2 against Canadian
(one of the best german Eternal players, punted game 2 though, forgot about Mindharness and played a KotR while i had Thrun on board....)
2-1 against WhiteStaxx
2-0 against Junk Loam
2-0 against UWr Countertop
2-1 against Nic Fit
(Thrun with equips is boss here, still the matchup seems pretty bad without a fast Mindscensor)

All in all second out of 36 for a Plateau, pretty nice for 6€ ;)

majikal
12-12-2011, 06:22 PM
lol @ Star City Games for never naming Maverick correctly. This time they've got Aggro Loam listed as Maverick. They will never get it right.

Koby
12-12-2011, 06:40 PM
lol @ Star City Games for never naming Maverick correctly. This time they've got Aggro Loam listed as Maverick. They will never get it right.

What do you expect from a staff that lets a cheater walk away with the top prize money? </aside>

It was refreshing to see GerryT pick up a non-Blue list however, and I'm looking forward to watching the videos to see how he played them out. Anyone have the link at hand?

GerryT
12-12-2011, 07:30 PM
lol @ Star City Games for never naming Maverick correctly. This time they've got Aggro Loam listed as Maverick. They will never get it right.

I label the decks with a name that people will get a general idea of what's in the deck just by looking at it. Names like "Maverick" and "Team America" and "Canadian Threshold" don't do that.

Also, I played "Maverick" at the Invitational because it's a good deck and well-positioned. I prefer Brainstorm, but I'll play whatever's good.