[Deck] GW/x Maverick [Archive] - Page 6

GerryT

12-13-2011, 01:59 AM

I can understand doing that, but I think once people look up a deck name and have an understanding of it, the need for descriptive names isn't as necessary.

Like in Standard, people knew what CawBlade and Jund were without it having to be constantly names UW/x Control or GRB Midgame Aggro.

Also, by renaming decks (especially if renamed incorrectly), I think it generates feelings of disrespect towards a community that's been playing said decks for awhile.

CawBlade and Jund are descriptive. "Maverick" and "Team America" are not. I'm far more worried about a new player looking at a format that seems interesting, but being overwhelmed by a bunch of weird decknames that don't make any sense, and deciding to not care anymore. I would think that, as a community, you'd want to foster that community and make it grow. That isn't going to happen when people insist on using their elitist decknaming conventions for no reason.

There was some stuff like Aggro Loam being labeled Maverick by the team entering decklists, but it's my job to fix that. If anything else recent looks wrong, just let me know.

Also, I'm sorry if it seems disrespectful. That is not our intention.

Anyway, I liked the deck a lot. I beat Hive Mind, Sneak and Show, U/R Painter, and lost to Nic Fit. Dredge scooped me in in the last round. MJ went 4-0 and Ben Hayes went 6-1 with the same deck in the Invitational, and MJ top 16ed the Legacy Open losing to the mirror.

I felt a little helpless against the combo decks, but it turned out well. Not sure the Punishing Fires were entirely necessary, as my mana base felt a little wonky at times, but PFire IS really good against a lot of decks, so maybe it's worth it. I'll probably talk more about the deck in my next article or the one after that.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

12-13-2011, 02:03 AM

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure the SCG Coverage has referred to Maverick as:

-G/W Blade
-Zoo
-G/W Zoo
-G/W Aggro
-Bant
-Bant Blade

And sometimes Maverick...

EDIT: Maverick is already soft to combo. Isn't it the case with the Punishing Fire lists that they're even softer to combo?

Koby

12-13-2011, 02:08 AM

Without completely destroying the Sideboard, or playing Ethersworn Canonist maindeck; there is not much that will fix the combo matchup. That's the price the deck pays for playing without blue cards.

If the deck survives to a second turn, it has the possibility of finding a decent hate card. The alternative is playing 4 Mindbreak Trap and hope that can be enough.

Also, Naya Stoneblade...

I suggest a better naming convention:

GW/(r/u) Zenith

Most Zoo decks don't run Zenith, or use Zenith with Wild Nacatl. Nacatl is a dead giveaway that the deck is Zoo.

majikal

12-13-2011, 02:39 AM

CawBlade and Jund are descriptive. "Maverick" and "Team America" are not. I'm far more worried about a new player looking at a format that seems interesting, but being overwhelmed by a bunch of weird decknames that don't make any sense, and deciding to not care anymore. I would think that, as a community, you'd want to foster that community and make it grow. That isn't going to happen when people insist on using their elitist decknaming conventions for no reason.
I wouldn't really say "elitist decknaming conventions" as the entire game has a pretty long history of weird decknames, and this is something that was always embraced and encouraged by the people working at WotC's Sideboard magazine. For example, many combo decks have traditionally been named after breakfast cereals, while creature decks have popularly been given names such as "Red Zone", "PT Jank", "Sea Stompy", and "Fish" (even when the deck contained no actual Merfolk). "Junk" is not a particularly descriptive deck name, but it continues to be used. Also "Reanimator" is named after a movie, while "ANT" and "TES" are just acronyms to anyone who doesn't already know what they are.

Also, let's face it - Naya, Jund, Bant, Esper, Grixis, etc. don't mean anything to new players either. Continuing to name decks of these colors after out-of-print, setting-specific locations from which they contain zero representative cards seems about on the same level as the actual creator of a deck naming it, so wouldn't you say your own naming conventions are a bit hypocritical?

I felt a little helpless against the combo decks, but it turned out well. Not sure the Punishing Fires were entirely necessary, as my mana base felt a little wonky at times, but PFire IS really good against a lot of decks, so maybe it's worth it. I'll probably talk more about the deck in my next article or the one after that.
The deck is a little weird like that. The lack of blue made me feel nervous and a little helpless at first, but it just somehow kept eking out wins against combo decks regardless of the lack of Force of Will. Sure, you lose to the nuts turn 1 hands, but that can happen to decks with FoW as well. Generally, though, if they don't kill you immediately, you have a pretty good chance of locking it up.

GerryT

12-13-2011, 02:59 AM

I wouldn't really say "elitist decknaming conventions" as the entire game has a pretty long history of weird decknames, and this is something that was always embraced and encouraged by the people working at WotC's Sideboard magazine. For example, many combo decks have traditionally been named after breakfast cereals, while creature decks have popularly been given names such as "Red Zone", "PT Jank", "Sea Stompy", and "Fish" (even when the deck contained no actual Merfolk). "Junk" is not a particularly descriptive deck name, but it continues to be used. Also "Reanimator" is named after a movie, while "ANT" and "TES" are just acronyms to anyone who doesn't already know what they are.

Also, let's face it - Naya, Jund, Bant, Esper, Grixis, etc. don't mean anything to new players either. Continuing to name decks of these colors after out-of-print, setting-specific locations from which they contain zero representative cards seems about on the same level as the actual creator of a deck naming it, so wouldn't you say your own naming conventions are a bit hypocritical?

You have some fair points. However, using examples of what Sideboard used to do isn't good. I think basically everyone figured out that, while cool if you invented a deck or deckname, it's helpful to basically no one.

While new players might not know what Jund, etc are, that doesn't mean that players who aren't new, but new to Legacy won't. That said, changing those conventions might help for Standard, so you could be right about that.

I only used "elitist" because that's the feeling I get from the Legacy community when topics like this come up. It's all about preserving "your" decknames when it should be about making it easily accessible so that Legacy doesn't die out.

My round twelve vs Ken Adams' Painter deck (with my thoughts in parenthesis):

He won the roll (awww hell) and played turn one Grindstone. I played turn one Mother of Runes (pleaaase don't have Painter and LED), and he played a Painter's Servant. I played a Dryad Arbor and Swords to Plowshares (pleaaase don't have Force of Will and a land) which resolved. Next turn he just played a Top while I played a Pridemage (if this resolves I think I'm winning...) and he died a few turns later.

Every single turn is a huge sweat, which is kind of nice, but W/G really does have enough tools to interact. I wasn't a huge fan of Enlightened Tutor sideboards in most decks, probably because most of the decks I were playing were blue. In W/G, it seemed very solid though. Definitely got to shore up my bad matchups with very few sideboard slots, and they were very impactful.

bakofried

12-13-2011, 03:09 AM

I'm behind the G/W/x Zenith naming convention; it feels a bit more true to the deck's design, as Stoneforge, while strong, is not the core focus of the deck. My two cents.

Also, if I may ask, I noticed the full set of Paths in the sideboard; this seemed odd to me, especially with the integration of Punishing Fires. Could I hear the explanation behind that?

*EDIT
It appears you have 17 cards in your sideboard. Misentry on the Paths, I assume?

majikal

12-13-2011, 03:13 AM

I'm behind the G/W/x Zenith naming convention; it feels a bit more true to the deck's design, as Stoneforge, while strong, is not the core focus of the deck. My two cents.

Also, if I may ask, I noticed the full set of Paths in the sideboard; this seemed odd to me, especially with the integration of Punishing Fires. Could I hear the explanation behind that?
Snapcaster Mage decks have made creature-heavy decks more popular, so more removal is better. Also, more redundancy marginalizes the value they can leverage over you with their flashback shenanigans.

Artlee

12-13-2011, 03:48 AM

It was a shame, that finally when a top player took the deck for a spin, he ran into a deck that is built to eat them alive.

Every single turn is a huge sweat, which is kind of nice
I agree it came as a surprise how skill intensive this deck is, as we have so many choices each turn. Do I start with Noble or mom? Do I use the Green sun for a hierarch/arbor or do I wait and find a hater like Gaddock or qasali? This is what makes the deck very fun to play.

Fatal

12-13-2011, 04:52 AM

@GarryT

I wouldn't throw all Combo MU to one, only bad MU are vs Combo based on spells, since Maverick has a lot of removal and way to deal with problematic pernaments.

Basically:

Combo based on spell worst MU:
- Belcher,
- TES,
- DDFT,
- ANT,
- Hive Mind,
- High Tide - those need hatebears on sb and from my testing also 2-3 Mindbreak Traps to have a good chance to win, also EE to deal with army of tokens on first turn.

Combo based on pernaments/GY:
- Grindstone Painter
- Cephalid Breakfast
- Dredge
- Reanimator
- Sneak Show

Those combo are rather easy MU if you know how to deal with them.

Anyway I'm glad you like the deck. Also I think you made some important mistakes fighting with Nic Fit Explorer, their most important thing is a ramp from Explorer, If he doesn't ramp with it he do mostly nothing, with his overcosted hand. So easy way to deal with them is just to StP Explorer as soon as possible and tempo. Deeds also needs a lot of mana to be useful - you can destroy it if he has low mana access before he untaps - so getting his life to very low count so you can just finish him with Punishing - Zoo style. I was also suprised that he cut one of the best card in deck which was Recurring Nightmare - this card gives and edge in middle aggro MU.

At the end his combo MU (both spell based and permanent based) is much worst ^^.

I also don't like you cut from list basic plains, playing first turn Mom required basic plains - since you be waste proof.

GL next time :) and don't be shy using Jitte as a pumper :).

@Note about a name of the deck - Its used since Survival banned. You can also met deck name from Spain where decks called "Z-Bomb" - "where all your draws are bombs". - I hope that deck will be present more often so the comemtators starts to naming it correct, but not only Maverick is being wrong named. Like mention above also Aggro Loam, Aggro Bants, New Horizons, Junks etc.. this because of short experience of commentators in Legacy. If commentator has a knowledge - all decks are correct named. Its normal there are about 30 good decks available in present meta so it's not so easy to even name them correctly, what about their decklists and strategies ^^.

Artlee

12-13-2011, 05:10 AM

I for one have not seen calebs build before, but I admit veteran explorer usually needs to be exiled immediately.

Pumping with the Jitte would not have won him the game anyway.

Esper3k

12-13-2011, 09:08 AM

CawBlade and Jund are descriptive. "Maverick" and "Team America" are not. I'm far more worried about a new player looking at a format that seems interesting, but being overwhelmed by a bunch of weird decknames that don't make any sense, and deciding to not care anymore. I would think that, as a community, you'd want to foster that community and make it grow. That isn't going to happen when people insist on using their elitist decknaming conventions for no reason.

I apologize if I came off as elitist, I did not mean to do so. What I meant, as Majikal already said, was that Standard already has deck names which are already fairly odd that a new player would have to learn, just as a new player to Legacy would need to learn.

I certainly understand wanting to make things easier to introduce players to the format, but I believe if someone is truly interested in it, they'll learn the names and catch on fairly quickly.

Anyway, I liked the deck a lot. I beat Hive Mind, Sneak and Show, U/R Painter, and lost to Nic Fit. Dredge scooped me in in the last round. MJ went 4-0 and Ben Hayes went 6-1 with the same deck in the Invitational, and MJ top 16ed the Legacy Open losing to the mirror.

I felt a little helpless against the combo decks, but it turned out well. Not sure the Punishing Fires were entirely necessary, as my mana base felt a little wonky at times, but PFire IS really good against a lot of decks, so maybe it's worth it. I'll probably talk more about the deck in my next article or the one after that.

I'm surprised you beat Hive Mind - that's a pretty tough matchup for us (combo in general is). In the GW builds, all you can do is hope to stick a hate bear of some kind and protected it with Mom or have enough hate in the sideboard.

For most of us though, the poor combo matchup is one that's acceptable since you make your other matchups so much stronger (especially against the non-combo blue decks).

All the tutoring the deck can do between GSZ, Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic, and ETutor from the board really gives you a lot of flexibility that's rarely seen outside of a blue deck. To me, this deck almost has a Survival-like feel with all the silver bullets you can run, which is why I love it so much.

darkmindtone

12-13-2011, 07:56 PM

For some reason Starcity didn't post my list from the top 8 of the Legacy open last weekend, but this deck was amazing for me (EDIT: NVM, they just added it). Played against a bunch of brainstorm decks or otherwise "fair" decks for the most part. Went 8-1 in the swiss, losing to a 4-color Dark Confidant/Grim Lavamancer/Snapcaster Mage/Delver of Secrets deck with Stifles and green cards in it as well as 4 Wastelands. He just had the tempo draws to keep me off my mana for long enough to kill me. I similarly stumbled in the top 8 against UBw Faeries, which I think should be a pretty good matchup. I'm pretty sure I misplayed pretty bad in game 1 on the deciding turn and got heavily punished by fetching Knight with GSZ rather than Pridemage for his Batterskull, and in turn he simply STP'd my Knight, equipped SoFaF to the germ token, and took over the game right there when I otherwise had most other threats on lockdown with Punishing Fires/Grove.

List was pretty standard GWr version, and my MVP of the day was Punishing Fires and it wasn't close.

4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavaging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindscensor

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Purify the Grave
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog

I was pretty happy having the Pyroblasts X4 in the sideboard. Gives some nice utility against a lot of the decks in the format, and gives me more confidence when playing the Show and Tell matchups. Additional outs against a reanimated Jin-Gitaxis is good to have as well. Not sure if a full 3 Purify the Grave are necessary, but you do want to draw one reasonably early against Reanimator, although that matchup seemed pretty good from my experiences. Elspeth was nice, but it wasn't as backbreaking in the mirror as I was hoping. It was pretty good for me when I ran Junk at a number of events earlier in the year, but now it just didn't feel as impacting. Similarly, I never liked the Enlightened Tutor sideboard when I was running Junk at every event, and therefore I wasn't really feeling it for this deck either. I'd rather just run a variety of answers where I'm not down a card rather than have the pseudo-utility Tutor offers at the expense of a card. I also didn't think the second Teeg in the sideboard is necessary and probably can be easily cut. I just completely ignored Storm/Belcher combo with my approach as I'm aware that this deck has no shot without dedicating numerous cards to those matchups, and even then they go from hopeless to roughly even.

As for ways to combat the probably increasingly-popular mirror, I'm thinking that me and my old friend from Extended-Naya, Cunning Sparkmage (and possibly Basilisk Collar) might be getting reacquainted. This deck can play him turn two, and should work better here than something like Grim Lavamancer at killing Mother of Runes and mana creatures.

One other thing I was thinking about while playing the deck was trying to find a way to fit a Fire-Lit Thicket into the mix so that you can use Punishing Fire more freely as sometimes it's a bit awkward when you're short on red mana to maximize the power of the card.

dahcmai

12-15-2011, 11:38 AM

Lots of lists I have seen used Aven Mindcensors in the deck. I couldn't see why people included them. I figured I would go ahead and try them figuring I would notice the usefulness of them and go Aha! and like the card. I never actually did. I eventually pulled them since they seemed utterly useless. People keep playing them so I assume I am just never running into the decks they are good against. So what is the use?

So is it literally just countering Stoneforge? That seems really awful if that's the main use. Fetchlands are not worth really trying to hold out for either. Infernal tutor or Doomsdays would be good ones, but I still don't think it's maindeckable. I've played this deck since it was including survivals and even a bit before that due to my love of the colors as a pet deck. I can't see the real value of Mindcensors.

It takes me about 4th turn before I even want to consider holding back mana for the "just in case". 3rd turn is too late to stop a Batterskull unless you have a Heirarch making it second and even then you have to be on the play. Decent for Entombs, but still way too slow in my opinion. Excellent for GSZ is about the best use I see aside from Natural Order. Ok, someone fill me in.

mordraid

12-15-2011, 01:37 PM

I totally agree with this. I'm just glad someone else made the lines for me.:tongue: Beside stoneforge mystic and some fetchlands, the mindcensor don't really shines. If you face a lot of dredge, high tide and deck like those you could make great use of the mindcensor. I personnally think that the mindcensors were good in the pre-misstep and during the misstep era. Now with delvers and tarmogoyfs spawning everywhere, you need more beef than just a little birdie with flash.

Lots of lists I have seen used Aven Mindcensors in the deck. I couldn't see why people included them. I figured I would go ahead and try them figuring I would notice the usefulness of them and go Aha! and like the card. I never actually did. I eventually pulled them since they seemed utterly useless. People keep playing them so I assume I am just never running into the decks they are good against. So what is the use?

So is it literally just countering Stoneforge? That seems really awful if that's the main use. Fetchlands are not worth really trying to hold out for either. Infernal tutor or Doomsdays would be good ones, but I still don't think it's maindeckable. I've played this deck since it was including survivals and even a bit before that due to my love of the colors as a pet deck. I can't see the real value of Mindcensors.

It takes me about 4th turn before I even want to consider holding back mana for the "just in case". 3rd turn is too late to stop a Batterskull unless you have a Heirarch making it second and even then you have to be on the play. Decent for Entombs, but still way too slow in my opinion. Excellent for GSZ is about the best use I see aside from Natural Order. Ok, someone fill me in.

dsck

12-15-2011, 02:01 PM

Fetches
Infernal Tutor
Stoneforge Mystic
Knight of the Reliquary
Green Sun's Zenith
Intuition

You basically get huge edge in mirror matches which are usual in Europe.

zulander

12-15-2011, 02:47 PM

In the red splash has anyone tried Nacatl instead of MoM's? You're running 12 removal spells and Nacatl just helps turn the clock up even more. This is a list I was thinking of:

Mana: 24
4 Heath
4 Foothills
3 Burnwellows
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze
1 Dryad Arbor

Beats: 20
4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Knight
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage
4 GSZ
2 Jitte

Removal: 12
4 Swords/Path
4 Bolt
4 Punishing Fires

Other: 4
3 Library
1 Crucible

Board: 15 meta slots

Mana seems great, library is a beating (makes it so you don't have to run canopy), and the one of crucible can just win you random wastelock games. I know MoM's are great against other aggro decks, but so is running 1cc 3/3's that can carry a jitte like a champ. Seems like 12 removal spells + library seems like your opponents creatures shouldn't be a problem to need MoM's. Sure not having swords protection sucks, but running more threats seems fine.

Koby

12-15-2011, 03:19 PM

In the red splash has anyone tried Nacatl instead of MoM's? You're running 12 removal spells and Nacatl just helps turn the clock up even more. This is a list I was thinking of:

List looks fine, but this deck looks more like Big Zoo than Maverick. Any :g::w::r: deck that features Wild Nacatl will generally be considered Zoo, while without it is generally Maverick. I have no doubts that the deck could be highly competitive. Maverick also tends to play more of a mid-range control deck than Zoo.

I'm not entirely sure if the Nacatl plan will allow you to beat Canadian Thresh/Delver decks any easier anyway. Bolt stills shreds Nacatl.

----------
I've been thinking about the blue splash again, but mostly from a SB perspective. I'm looking to run 4 Spell Pierce against combo to supplement the hate-bear plan slightly. Has anyone tested this before? What are potential downfalls from the plan? (also includes 1 Tropical Island maindeck)

BlackStarDeceiver

12-15-2011, 03:33 PM

Tested and good because noone expects it. Tropical is fine, makes Eldric, Rafiq and Rhox War Monk perfectly supportable.

Downfall, you loose to Lord of Atlantis :D.

Just try it, i always love it because it helps in so many matchups (eg. Enchantress, Combo, Rock)

lochlan

12-15-2011, 04:46 PM

So what is the use [of Aven Mindcensor]?

I like it because it gives me a much better chance against Storm and Reanimator maindeck. Slow? Frequently, yes. Although, it can potentially be pulled off by turn 2 with a mana guy (but you're probably doing it during your opponents turn...).

The main reason I really like it is the general lack of flying creatures in legacy. The most prominent one is probably Delver right now, and Mindcensor trades with Delver. And Mindcensor can carry a sword. Right now I'm running 3x Mindcensor, 2x Scryb Ranger, and 1x Bird of Paradise and along with GSZ it feels like the right amount of flying creatures.

It definitely seems like a metagame call me to me, though.

dahcmai

12-17-2011, 02:17 AM

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a little limited. I never thought about holding him for Intuition though. I do like that use since Hive Mind can be a pain. I'll have to remember that one.

The Mirror I can totally see. Knights, Fetches, and GSZ would be a good use. Though considering I have never hit a single mirror, I guess he'll have to keep sitting in my board.

I like having extra Pridemages for Stoneforge. I played that deck enough to know what a pain they are. It feels like you had a lot of work go down the drain when someone just blows up your Batterskull with a pridemage.

Maybe a Grand Prix will get him back main, but meh.

Asthereal

12-17-2011, 06:39 AM

Mindcensors are awesome against No PRO, the Mirror, and any combodeck relying on tutors. If you expect little NO PRO and Mirror matches, I suspect you are better off without them. I played them in the GW list at GP Amsterdam and they won two rounds for me. Not sure whether I would play them now though. Maverick is losing popularity in my meta and no one still plays the NO PRO plan (except for me, since I switched to NO RUG :-P ).

TheKingslayer

12-17-2011, 01:21 PM

I've used the single trop island with pierces in the board before. I've surprised quite a few reanimator and combo decks with "response, fetch, trop island, spell pierce." I like it a lot, but I have since been trying a build with no blue. I'm not sure what I prefer yet.

Barbed Blightning

12-18-2011, 02:29 PM

Hey, I just started to build Maverick a few weeks ago, and almost have it completed. My roommate decided recently to make UW Stoneblade, so I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for the MU or for my SB. Thanks!

Julian23

12-18-2011, 02:43 PM

The maindeck is already pretty well prepared for that matchup, especially if you opt for the 2 Scryb Ranger as well as Aven Mindcensor for Jace and SFM. After sideboarding, bringing in the 2nd Thrun is also a great thing to do. Also, Elspeth, Knight-Errant.

bakofried

12-18-2011, 02:57 PM

Could you clue me in on some European trends with the deck, Julian? I'd like to see where y'all are taking the deck.

Philipp2293

12-18-2011, 03:35 PM

Well, personally I've played a pretty experimental GWu today (1 MD Dismember, Batterskull back in the main, still not sure if I wanna play him, Flusterstorm in the SB as well as Elspeth instead of Choke) today to a 4-0-1 finish, only thing that was a problem today were Shackles against UW Stoneblade (my draw). Wins were against the Mirror twice, Reanimator and UWr Control.

bakofried

12-18-2011, 03:40 PM

Any reasoning for Flusterstorm rather than spell pierce?

Philipp2293

12-18-2011, 03:54 PM

Any reasoning for Flusterstorm rather than spell pierce?

For the stuff I care for, Flusterstorm is better then Spell Pierce IMO (WoG, Snapcastered Spells, S+T and Reanimator Spells except Animate Dead, Storm Combo).

Maybe someone can convince me why spell pierce is better ;)

Julian23

12-18-2011, 03:55 PM

Flusterstorm is way better against combo decks that run countermagic of their own like Hive Mind or Reanimator. Spell Pierce is more flexible, hitting a lot of random stuff like Stax, Enchantress and Planeswalkers.

UnsungHero

12-18-2011, 04:27 PM

Speaking of counters, Would Rebuff the Wicked be any use in this deck? Is running counters to protect our permanents be of good use? No splash required.

Rebuff the Wicked
W
Instant
Counter target spell that targets a permanent you control.

randomly.anonymous

12-18-2011, 04:33 PM

Julian23

12-18-2011, 04:37 PM

Isn't that more or less Mother of Runes?

Basically, it's Mother of Runes + Scryb Ranger. This deck doesn't want cards that are bad on their own; no space for such an instant.

Koby

12-19-2011, 01:20 PM

I like Spell Pierce better than Flusterstorm due to it being able to hit Artifacts (Ensnaring Bridge), Enchantments (aka Enchantress), and Planeswalkers. Flusterstorm helps the combo matchup, but taxing :2: with Pierce is just as effective if used properly.

KobeBryan

12-19-2011, 02:55 PM

Koby

12-19-2011, 03:03 PM

The same one that I played from KW, which is 73/75 the same as I played at Vegas.

That is to say, only SB changes are happening at this point.

KobeBryan

12-19-2011, 03:04 PM

The same one that I played from KW, which is 73/75 the same as I played at Vegas.

That is to say, only SB changes are happening at this point.

then its same to say your going to roll with this for scg LA

Julian23

12-19-2011, 03:28 PM

I may have already mentioned this, but I really think 3 Path to Exile in the sideboard are a very efficient way to combat RUG Delver. Also, having the 2nd Scryb Ranger helps a lot here.

Koby

12-19-2011, 03:36 PM

I may have already mentioned this, but I really think 3 Path to Exile in the sideboard are a very efficient way to combat RUG Delver. Also, having the 2nd Scryb Ranger helps a lot here.

I'm currently up to 2 Path to Exile, and already running the 2nd Scryb Ranger. Man, that latter guy helps out on land-light draws so much. Turn 2 - Ranger + another 2 drop (like SFM). Shit is broken!

dahcmai

12-19-2011, 05:00 PM

I totally agree on the Ranger. It helped a lot more once I realized the little guy actually has a useful protection too. lol

The Colonel

12-20-2011, 02:27 AM

Hey guys

I'm brand new to this deck. I actually have the cards on order as I type this. Deck looks like a blast to pilot, I get how it works and how it wins but I have a few questions about the mana base:

What should your turns 1 and 2 look like (game 1 not knowing what your playing against, the safest bet)? They seem to be super important for this deck. How often do you burn a Zenith for Arbor? Nobel H? Bird of Paradise? The reason I ask is because the HUGE question mark seems to be the incredible volitility of the mana base. You have to go into every game assuming to see wasteland.. HAVE to. How often do you get screwed by wasteland? Also it seems like blood moon wrecks this deck, is that true? Do you want to fetch out the single plains or single forest every time as your first fetched land? How many mana producing cards should a keepable opening hand look like (not counting Zenith as a searcher for a mana criter)?

Blood moon: I play it in my other two decks and I've seen it win the game by itself time and time again. What do you do with this deck about blood moon? Especially with only running an average of two basics.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

Koby

12-20-2011, 02:44 AM

What should your turns 1 and 2 look like (game 1 not knowing what your playing against, the safest bet)?

How often do you burn a Zenith for Arbor? Nobel H? Bird of Paradise?

How often do you get screwed by wasteland? Also it seems like blood moon wrecks this deck, is that true? Do you want to fetch out the single plains or single forest every time as your first fetched land? How many mana producing cards should a keepable opening hand look like (not counting Zenith as a searcher for a mana criter)?

What do you do with this deck about blood moon? Especially with only running an average of two basics.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

Against an unknown opponent, a hand with acceleration (GSZ, mana dorks), business (SFM, KotR, Wasteland), and removal (STP) or a playable combination of those is good. The deck operates best when it can generate 3-4 mana every turn and still continue to apply pressure. Hands without acceleration should be on a lower curve (lots of 2 drops) with aggressive creatures (Pridemage, Ooze) and possibly KotR to round out. Hands without much business but lots of mana can be made playable with GSZ for 2, 3 or 4 (depending on the matchup). I've often GSZ for a Noble Hierarch on turn 2 after playing one on turn 1 - but usually when I have the luxury of multiple GSZ in hand and a land-light hand.

Key point: try to get to 3-4 mana ASAP.

In an unknown matchup, I always fetch basics right away. They are the bread and butter of this deck. Against decks that don't disrupt manabases (Wasteland, Moons) find your duals whilynily, they won't impact your development.

Key point: have paranoia of Wasteland.

3 lands is the sweet spot for an opening hand. On principle, I don't play non-mana producing lands. I've been hosed a few times with Gaea's Cradle, but I've won more games using it to equip or power out GSZ more. I'd prefer to see more fetchlands in my hand than not, but it depends on how fast you need to develop the board.

Key point: Maze of Ith is cute, but rarely needed.

Blood Moon turn 1 is almost always scoopable. Equipment + Dryad Arbor makes it able to play through, but unlikely.

Philipp2293

12-20-2011, 02:55 AM

What did you cut for your 2nd Path?

Koby

12-20-2011, 02:57 AM

What did you cut for your 2nd Path?

Elspeth. There's no dedicated control in my local metagame right now. There is, however, entirely too much Reanimator. I might try out Weathered Wayfarer to bring in. It would be quite funny to make that play happen :D

bakofried

12-20-2011, 03:13 AM

I'm wondering if anyone has done any dedicated testing of Garruk Relentless in Elspeth's slots; he seems to have more of an impact on the mirror while offering strong game against (non-red) control decks.

Julian, if you have any advice to offer from overseas to the general forum, I'd thank you for it. And thank you for the informative PM.

Raystar

12-20-2011, 04:13 AM

Blood Moon turn 1 is almost always scoopable. Equipment + Dryad Arbor makes it able to play through, but unlikely.

Hey ruckus, I kind of disagree here. I have never lost a game to blood moon, I generally fetch for basic green and that is more enough to get the deck going: you just need a mana dork and you are set (GSZ helps immensely here). Sure, if you are on the draw and they play is a mess but that's not exactly common...

I'm so sure about that that I was thinking of putting Blood Moon in SB against RUG...

I'm really not worried about BM, maybe it's because I play GWr but it really doesn't have an effect on the deck.

angel882

12-20-2011, 06:37 AM

The same one that I played from KW, which is 73/75 the same as I played at Vegas.

That is to say, only SB changes are happening at this point.

Hi, is there any link where I could find that list? Or can you post it here?

Esper3k

12-20-2011, 06:48 AM

Yeah I haven't had much difficulties with Blood Moon or Wasteland myself either (I play the GW version).

Once you get out a basic Forest, you have plenty of ways (Hierarch, GSZ for Hierarch) to generate white mana.

Artlee

12-20-2011, 06:54 AM

Regarding first turn plays:
Especially since Mental Misstep was banned, it has become easier to cast Noble Hierarch turn 1. I most often fetch for forest, as the deck is not nearly as dependent on a dual as other decks. I actually only tend to fetch for duals when I am 100% sure my opponent is not running Wastelands.

Asthereal

12-20-2011, 10:58 AM

If they drop the Moon on turn one on the play, you do have very big issues though. No more fetch, duals, canopies, Wastelands... You will have to draw into the basics naturally, and let's face it, those chances are way to small to count on.
On the draw Moons don't hurt too badly since you can just fetch the Forest turn one.

In Europe I understand Punishing Fires Maverick is rather popular nowadays. It has won the Belgian Nationals and in the meta as I see it right now it feels just right. It's a lot better against RUG Delver and StoneBlade than the GW version, and since there seems to be little real nonbasic land hate out there right now, that's the version I'd recommend.

Water_Wizard

12-20-2011, 12:08 PM

Hi, is there any link where I could find that list? Or can you post it here?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42139

I think the changes to this list are:
maindeck
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scryb Ranger
+1 Tarmogoyf
sideboard
-1 Elspeth
+1 Path to Exile

Here's another deck that recently 3-0'd a Thursday Night Magic event on MTGO:
http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=72231

Here's my GWr list - I also 3-0'd TNM, going 6-0 in games (twice I got lucky versus burn - down to 1 life and could have died if opponent drew a burn spell - both times they didn't and I bounced back - once via SoLaS and once with a huge KotR swing FTW):
http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=72229

bakofried

12-20-2011, 12:44 PM

My main problem with that deck is the Relic in the SB. In a deck which can handle Goyf, and is one of the better KotR decks out there, Relic really has no place.

lyracian

12-20-2011, 02:15 PM

My main problem with that deck is the Relic in the SB. In a deck which can handle Goyf, and is one of the better KotR decks out there, Relic really has no place.
You can always build your own sideboard. Main deck seems solid although I can see no reason for snow-covered basics.

Water_Wizard

12-20-2011, 02:47 PM

You can always build your own sideboard. Main deck seems solid although I can see no reason for snow-covered basics.

Why not do snow-covered basics? Does it really make a difference? Icequake? Thermokarst? Old Fogey? Does that say protection from Hemorrhoids?

bakofried

12-20-2011, 02:53 PM

I'm quite aware of that fact. I saw a flaw in the deck and commented on it.

iScare

12-20-2011, 03:15 PM

how do we fight against decks like Eva Green that has full of removals and discarding? Especially with Punishing Fire Mav.

So hard to fight Liliana of the Veil on the early turns.

Fade

12-20-2011, 03:27 PM

Played in two locals this weekend. At both of them there were only 8 to 9 players but that is good enough to get the event to fire. First one was this past Saturday and I went 1-2, winning against goblins and losing to Reid Duke's Pox List and U/W Stoneblade with Dreadnaughts. Second local I went 3-0, winning the event. Here is how the rounds went off of memory.

Saturday Local
Round 1 (Goblins)
Game 1: He starts off with port into vial. He they lays another port followed by wasteland and finally finds his first mountain. I try to establish some board presence but he keeps porting my lands each turn and I eventually lose it because of vial. I did not see any of the 3 main deck pridemages.

Game 2: This one is grindy but I get a sword of fire and ice online and remove the cheiftains. He goes in for an alpha strike the turn before he dies and I get to single digit life. I then swing for the win.

Game 3: He mulls to 5. I start with noble into stoneforge grabbing jitte. Next turn I play a sword of fire and ice and he scoops because his board is 2 lands and lackey.

Round 2 (Mono Black Pox)
His list is basically identical to Reid Duke's except Nature's Ruin instead of Perish and 2 more extirpate instead of leylines.

Game 1: He has turn one dark ritual into liliana, discard a card. Turn 2 dark ritual hymn you. Turn 3, -2 liliana kill my dude, dark ritual, liliana discard a card.... I just lose.

Game 2: I play out a bunch of creatures eventually getting a knight online which wins me the game. He had to -2 liliana all game and they never stayed on board too long. I believe he boarded out some of his main deck creature removal for the abyss and some others.

Game 3: I had a board of 2 noble hierarchs, 1 bird, stoneforge and knight. I thought I would win this game too but he eventually hits nether spirit which blocks for days. He then lands the abyss and I keep attacking each turn with knight. Once knight dies I can't recover since he destroyed all my lands but 2 and he landed a nether void. I later find out that it says each player sacs a non-artifact creature...I should of held back a turn let him sac his spirit then swing. The game would have been closer but I'm unsure if it would have mattered.

Round 3 (U/W StoneNaught)
Game 1: He wins while I am at 12 life due to a tricky combat step. He is swinging with 2 flipped Delvers one has a SOFF on it and a Phyrexian Dreadnaught. My board is Mom, Aven Mindcensor, Scryb ranger with SOFF, Pridemage, and Knight. I block the delver without SOFF with the Scryb ranger and the Aven Mindcensor blocks the other Delver with SOFF. I then sac the pridemage to kill the dreadnaught without leaving anything in front of it, He then uses his last untapped mana to stifle the pridemage’s ability. I should have Put the mother and pridemage in front of the dreadnaught then sac pridemage to kill the dreadnaught. That way once he responds I can still give the aven mindcensor pro blue and be at 1 life to swing for game next turn.

Game 2: I win with a scryb ranger, Mom, and Knight on board.

Game 3: He lands 2 early delvers which both flip on his next upkeep. I am at 3 life with a Mom, Scryb ranger, SOFI, Savannah, and Maze of Ith on board. He swings in with both delvers. I throw the ranger in front of one and use Maze of Ith to untap the other one, but yet again he had stifle to stifle the maze ability and I lost it.

Monday Local
Round 1 (U/W Stoneblade)
Game 1: He is new to legacy and starts off with the normal turn one brainstorm, turn 2 fetch play stoneforge for batterskull. I have turn 1 heirarch, into Stoneforge for SOFF. He then cliques me turn 3 after I draw to see a had full of lands and a SOFF. He takes the SOFF and I draw into a thrun. I play the thrun. He then swings with the batterskull and I just take the damage. I play a Scavenging Ooze and his batterskull token dies next turn after I regenerate the Thrun. He equips his vendilion clique with the batterskull and swings again. I take the damage and fall to single digits. I then green sun for a Scryb ranger to block the clique all day and we go to game 2.

Game 2: I keep a one lander because I had a noble hierarch turn 1 and I was on the draw. I play out the hierarch and then a stoneforge which eats a swords to plowshares. He then snapcasters the swords back on the hierarch and I die to snapcaster beats.

Game 3: I do much of the same to him but this time I land a knight and he can’t get through.

Round 2 (Elves)

Game 1: I mull my land light hands down to 5 and keep an opener of 3 lands, noble hierarch, stoneforge. I play turn one noble into stoneforge getting jitte. I need to topdeck a land to play and equip the jitte to stoneforge and wreck his board. I topdeck the land and it’s game 2.

Game 2: I play out like game 1. On his second turn he explodes elves and my only hope is to tutor for ensnaring bridge which I do and play on my turn. He naturally has the viridian shaman in his hand.

Game 3: I mull down to 5 again. I play noble turn 1 and then turn 2 ethersworn canonist. I stoneforge turn 3 for the jitte. I wipe his board with jitte and he can’t come back by playing only one elf each turn.

Round 3 (BWG Junk)
Game 1: He wins the roll and thoughtsiezes and hymns away my Knight, Savannah and Mom. I have three nobles in play and a scryb ranger. He maelstrom pulses away the nobles and I am left with a scryb ranger and a bird. Somehow I end up coming back with a knight and tarmogoyf to win.

Game 2: I mull to 6. I play noble into stoneforge for a SOFF when he thoughtseizes my 2 card hand on turn three I let it resolve and show him batterskull and SOFF. He then concedes.

Overall, my experience playing with Maverick has been awesome. Being mostly a combo player who has been hated out by all the U/W Stoneblades deck, I find it gratifying to play a non-blue fair deck that can beat up on the rest of the field.

zulander

12-20-2011, 05:58 PM

Are there any SCG archives of a player with gwr maverick? I cant seem to find any.

bakofried

12-20-2011, 06:01 PM

Gerry Thompson discussed it in his last article, I believe. Premium though.

KobeBryan

12-20-2011, 06:02 PM

how do we fight against decks like Eva Green that has full of removals and discarding? Especially with Punishing Fire Mav.

So hard to fight Liliana of the Veil on the early turns.

Don't worry. You won't face eva green in any tournaments. its not a tiered deck.

Water_Wizard

12-20-2011, 06:18 PM

Are there any SCG archives of a player with gwr maverick? I cant seem to find any.

Yes, there are quite a few, but they oftentimes name the deck incorrectly. There is a discussion of this a few pages back. At the recent invitational, they call it Zoo, Maverick (even though it is WGr) and Naya Stoneblade. Search Legacy results for December 11, 2011.

Water_Wizard

12-20-2011, 06:23 PM

how do we fight against decks like Eva Green that has full of removals and discarding? Especially with Punishing Fire Mav.

So hard to fight Liliana of the Veil on the early turns.

I would think Punishing Mav is a better match-up vs. Eva Green as you can buy back your Punishing Fire. Liliana is tough. I started running a Compost in my board. Once you resolve that, Eva Green/Pox are done, especially when you start Punishing Fire their Nether Spirit. Mirran Crusader is also a beat stick, especially if equipped with Jitte or SFI. However, if they are running Cursed Scroll, Mirran is not too good. Finally, I added a maindeck Eternal Witness to get back stuff that had been discarded (mainly equipment). Sword of Light and Shadow is also really good against Pox - if you can get in an attack with it and pull back a creature, that is usually game over.

Koby

12-20-2011, 06:37 PM

I would think Punishing Mav is a better match-up vs. Eva Green as you can buy back your Punishing Fire. Liliana is tough. I started running a Compost in my board. Once you resolve that, Eva Green/Pox are done, especially when you start Punishing Fire their Nether Spirit. Mirran Crusader is also a beat stick, especially if equipped with Jitte or SFI. However, if they are running Cursed Scroll, Mirran is not too good. Finally, I added a maindeck Eternal Witness to get back stuff that had been discarded (mainly equipment). Sword of Light and Shadow is also really good against Pox - if you can get in an attack with it and pull back a creature, that is usually game over.

SoLS is essentially to beat Deadguy/Junk decks while providing the relevant protection from their targetted removal. Sylvan Library also goes a long way by allowing you to hide your threats until the mana is available to cast it; or shuffle away bad tops into more gas.

It's not an easy matchup, but against B/x decks is where white creatures are better. Especially SFM -> equipment.

iScare

12-20-2011, 06:45 PM

It just feels like Eva Green is a bad MU for GW/x Mav. Too many removals and discards. Also bitterblossom with Jitte is Game over. I thought about Mirran Crusader, but i don't want to waste slot for him if it's useful only against Eva Green.

I know some people are not using Aven Mindcensors as much, are they really that ineffecive? I am thinking taking them out for a Thrun and Terravore to apply pressure on the board.

KobeBryan

12-20-2011, 06:54 PM

Koby

12-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Folks have been asking about my most recent list. I've got a link to my last tournament placing in my signature, and also repeated here for discussion:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Terravore
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

sideboard
1 Sword of Light And Shadow
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Path to Exile (metagame slot)
1 Circle of Protection: Red (metagame slot)
1 Thorn of Amethyst (metagame slot)

It seems to me that Maverick is starting to pick up in the US & A. If the metagame continues to perform like this, Aven Mindcensor would start to make more sense being in the maindeck. This might take the place of E.Witness, Terravore, and possibly Thrun (to go to the SB).

lyracian

12-23-2011, 05:39 PM

Folks have been asking about my most recent list. I've got a link to my last tournament placing in my signature, and also repeated here for discussionShame to see you dropped the single Birds of Paradise and well done on fourth place. How are you finding the single Library compares to having a pair?

Koby

12-23-2011, 05:44 PM

I've been meaning to add the BoP back in, but haven't gotten a chance to do so. Scryb Ranger takes the place of dedicated Flyer that Carries Equipment; and hence was granted a 2nd spot.

Sylvan Library excels against black disruption, which has been drying up recently. With RUG tempo and UW control, along with Reanimator & Combo in my metagame; Sylvan Library #2 doesn't seem to carry its weight. One is enough to justify its role when you draw it, and easily boarded out in dead matchups.

nedleeds

12-25-2011, 10:55 PM

As for ways to combat the probably increasingly-popular mirror, I'm thinking that me and my old friend from Extended-Naya, Cunning Sparkmage (and possibly Basilisk Collar) might be getting reacquainted. This deck can play him turn two, and should work better here than something like Grim Lavamancer at killing Mother of Runes and mana creatures.

I think you are looking for Granger Guildmage here. I play him in my Gwr brews all the time, he can be GSZed out and the first strike is occasionally relevant.

Barook

12-26-2011, 04:30 AM

I think you are looking for Granger Guildmage here. I play him in my Gwr brews all the time, he can be GSZed out and the first strike is occasionally relevant.
He also sounds pretty interesting with Basilisk Collar as a creature kill combo, especially considering both parts are searchable with GSZ/SFM.

sir

12-28-2011, 02:20 AM

He also sounds pretty interesting with Basilisk Collar as a creature kill combo, especially considering both parts are searchable with GSZ/SFM.

Yeah ... but even with you being able to tutor these two piecing this together is kind of clumsy and I kind of doubt it will successfully come together too often in play. It will get hit with removal in the creature matchups where you want to do this. And if you have the resources and time to tutor either piece, or get it running, most of the time you'll want to tutor or engineer something else, i.e. something more purely threatening.

I admit Granger Guildmage's cost and being GSZ'able is good and elevates it considerably in this search for cute removal that has been kicked around recently.

In terms of putting one in a standard build with red-splash ... even without making a Basilisk Collar slot to accompany it it seems not better to me and probably worse than using the other little dart gun you can tutor up, Mortarpod in a standard build, , which is interesting (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7144&iddeck=51895) and bears experiment but uh, is a pretty experimental and questionable use of a slot to be sure. Probably better than the equipment in a full Punishing Fires build, but hardly seems needed on top of 4x Fires and some Groves anyway, no? ... Nevermind, maybe the single Guildmage could be worthwhile there. Interested to hear how it goes.

I think it is getting ahead of oneself to look at something like this if you're not already using some Path to Exile in sideboard, by the way.

Just my own thoughts.

iScare

12-30-2011, 06:40 PM

In an unknown meta, would you go with Thrun or Terravore?

mini1337s

12-30-2011, 08:03 PM

Thrun, the Last Troll without a doubt.
Terravore is really good against the mirror or other KotR decks. Thrun, while expensive to get out, is pretty difficult for most decks to deal with. Terravore eats a lot of spot removal.
If you find you are having a lot of trouble with opposing KotR decks, maybe look at adding in a Terravore as a silver-bullet GSZ target. I don't think it's ridiculous to cut your 4th KotR for a Terravore if your meta calls for it.

Fatal

12-30-2011, 08:33 PM

Never cut KotRs.. Terravore belongs in to meta-slots KotRs are in core. It should be your 5th KotR if your meta-call need it.

mini1337s

12-30-2011, 08:56 PM

Never cut KotRs.. Terravore belongs in to meta-slots KotRs are in core. It should be your 5th KotR if your meta-call need it.
I understand the power of KotR, but cannot think of many games where the 4th was necessary. What is your reasoning for keeping the 4th in, in an example like this. I wouldn't replace the 4th with say a Tarmogoyf, but with such a similar creature, especially one that is used simply to trump KotR, wouldn't it be acceptable?

Koby

12-30-2011, 09:20 PM

mini1337s

12-30-2011, 09:31 PM

You want maximum chance of drawing KotR, even if you end up tutoring for it too. He's too vital in the times where you need Karakas or a key Wasteland and can't throw that away to make room for Terravore. I play 4 KotR and terravore, along with Thrun.

This is all at the expense of Aven Mindcensor, which isn't so hot against an open metagame.
That is completely fair. Not sure how I feel about Mindscensor on a whole; I am to the point where I would rather side in my "combo" hate in game 2. It's so rare that he is actually good, except in the mirror, where a Terravore fills that role just as easily.
I've recently trimmed my Aven Mindscensors down to 2 as well as moved my Gaddock Teeg to the sideboard and replaced them with 2 Elsepth, Knight-Errant (not much combo in my meta). I considering moving the Gaddock Teeg back, and removing another Mindscensor, and at that point, I might as well remove the last for a Terravore. I've found that Elsepth gives me all the reach I wanted in Mindscensor, and is a pretty significant threat on its own.

Fatal

12-31-2011, 05:30 AM

Do you run Sylvan Library - I found that this card is so powerful that its must in in this deck. With equips gaining life its our Jace TMS for 2 mana.

iScare

12-31-2011, 09:57 PM

I run 1 library which I think most feel is sufficient.

Esper3k

01-01-2012, 03:06 AM

Knight is so crucial as a win condition / disruption card that we have to maximize our chances of getting her. Decks like Canadian Thresh have almost no way of beating a properly (ie, making sure she's > 3/3 and being careful with activations / fetches to dodge Submerge).

On top of that, whenever you face any Show & Tell or graveyard based deck, you'll really want as many as you can get.

The Enemy Wizard

01-04-2012, 01:26 AM

Is anyone else not entirely sold on the enlightened tutor board? it just seems slow and card disadvantage.

Koby

01-04-2012, 01:31 AM

Is anyone else not entirely sold on the enlightened tutor board? it just seems slow and card disadvantage.

In a world without Combo decks, I could agree. Unfortunately, Canonist is pretty much what you need on turn 2 every game. Even running 4 in the SB gives you ~45% chance to see one by turn 2. E-tutor increases the density of the hate without decreasing the size of your SB. E-tutor is almost exclusively used in Combo matchups where you need to find Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian Metamorph, Tormod's Crypt, or Null Rod/Stony Silence. It's not brought in against Blue 90% of the time; but is brought in against Dredge (Must. Find. Graveyard. Hate.).

from Cairo

01-04-2012, 01:49 AM

Is anyone else not entirely sold on the enlightened tutor board? it just seems slow and card disadvantage.

I like that Enlightened Tutor gives you a lot of flexability, but if one knows their meta for a regular event I could see a non-ETutor board being able to be better tailored to expected matches.

I like Enlightened Tutor when you expect Reanimator, having the ability to grab Crypt or Metamorph is pretty valuable - though it is redundant considering Knight-> Karakas and GSZ -> Ooze.

Enlightened can be nice to tutor a Canonist or Thorn to complement one another as well, though against combo, my bigger issue has been getting goldfished before I can play 2cc disruption. And again in this case the deck already has GSZ -> Teeg for a slowish permanent way to turn off Storm combo.

I think Enlightened Tutor pads a lot of tough match ups marginally well, but I think if one has particular worries the slots could be put to better use to aide specific matches.

I've been having particular issues with combo, which I'm considering addressing through Mindbreak Trap or Spell Pierce (/w a Trop in a Canopy/Savannah slot). Alternatively I may just shelve Maverick, since locally I'm seeing no agro opponents and few control varients - not really a favorable meta for the deck.

iScare

01-04-2012, 02:14 PM

from Cairo

01-04-2012, 03:06 PM

I like Mother of Runes as a 4-of, it holds it's value pretty well for a 1 drop. Being able to protect hate bears makes them substantially more reliable. I like that it has application against most of the format, can be used offensively or defensively, w/ Scryb Ranger it can do both.

Totally think 3 Punishing Fire is defensible. It ties up a fair bit of mana, so it's not a spectacular play tempo-wise early in the game. Related, I don't think it's great to see in multiples in the early game - ie the first 10 cards or so. With it supplementing 4 Swords to Plowshares you still have several ways to off an early game play.

Esper3k

01-04-2012, 03:49 PM

3 Pfires is fine. It's not a card you generally want to see in multiples and if you're running Sylvan Library, you shouldn't have too hard of a time finding it.

KobeBryan

01-04-2012, 07:18 PM

I am running the PF Mav and i want to find a room to squeeze Batterskull in. I was thinking or reducing the MOM count from 4 to 3 so i can put a Batterskull. or maybe reduce the PF count from 4 to 3, but it seems like PF is pretty damn useful in killing those mana dorks, delvers, cliques and Bob. Probably more useful than MOM?

what do you guys think?

4 punishing fires are too many. You should run 3. You are eating away all the valuable card slots using this punishing fire mechanism. Its also taking away your SFM package.

How many sfm are u running anyways?

BlueNevus

01-06-2012, 01:27 PM

Anyone playing G/W/u with more than just 1 Tropical? I think Geist/Clique/Pierce are worth splashing for:

4 Noble
3 Mother
4 KOTR
3 Stoneforge
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Scryb
2 Geist of St. Traft
1 Ooze
2 Mindcensor
1 Thrun
2 Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Elspeth

1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

60

SB

4 Spell Pierce
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wheel of Sun & Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Path to Exile
1 Serenity (Metagame crutch for me)

Mindcensor for the mirror, flying, and a little mana disruption. If I leave mana up for it and my opponent doesn't fetch that turn, I just play it EOT anyway even if they get their lands. It will disrupt future fetches, occasionally more important cards, and you don't time walk yourself; I like packing as much disruption and flight as I can in Maverick. Without Mindcensor/Clique, the deck can lose winnable games against Delvers/Cliques, which is frustrating. I'm not interested in Punishing Fire as it seems to excel in already great matchups; please correct me if I'm mistaken.

You can swap Maze of Ith for Cradle if you like. I like Maze against Reanimator, Sword of Feast + Famine/Skull/Jitte, and for pseudo-removal when you don't have STP. It also works well with Geist and KOTR.

Geist, along with Mother and Thrun, makes life hell if your opponent relies on spot removal to beat Maverick. Exalted, Mother, and equipment help keep it alive to get in. Geist and Clique diversify the threat package, which is lacking if they can answer Knights and Equipment.

Koby

01-06-2012, 01:38 PM

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of St. Traft
2 Mindcensor

I think you might want to play test these slots more vigorously. Having six 3-mana creatures that aren't tutorable with GSZ might be too much for the deck to handle. Geist might have the most resiliency, but the other two are weak as ants and they will ultimately not be correct to play on a given turn compared to KotR, GSZ, or SFM.

iScare

01-06-2012, 03:56 PM

With fewer green targets for GSZ, maybe play brainstorm instead and reduce the GSZ count?

Esper3k

01-06-2012, 04:46 PM

I'd also be wary of the UU cost in Cliques. Seems tough for a splash color even with Hierarchs.

Machahiko

01-08-2012, 06:16 AM

With fewer green targets for GSZ, maybe play brainstorm instead and reduce the GSZ count?

You might also want to -2 mindcensor, -4 mother of runes, -most of the deck and go check the bant thread. Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see how you even got the idea to cut Green Sun's Zenith to add brainstorms when the whole deck resolves / has become popular thanks to Green Sun's Zenith.

Game is usually over when a Knight of the Reliquary sticks to the board and you untap with it. I don't really see how Vendilion Clique compliments the gameplan of Maverick. Sure, it's a nice 3/1 flier with good abilities but atleast I feel like it does less than Eternal Witness for example. Overall I feel like red splash would be better than blue, but if you splash blue at least splash with creatures that are also green and therefore fetchable with GSZ.

If you want some blue cards to play, you might want to consider Edric, Spymaster of trest, Rhox War Monk and Rafiq of the Many. I've found Rhox to be somewhat good if your metagame has a lot of burn. Batterskull ofc solves that problem also, but does Stoneforge Mystic usually live until she can land a batterskull? I'd much rather fetch up Umezawa's Jitte.

Just my thoughts about adding Brainstorms, Cliques and St Traft's and cutting Mother of Runes and GSZ.

Einherjer

01-08-2012, 07:00 AM

I really agree with you - I was like "Did I click on the wrong thread?" I mean If youd like GUW then go play Bant, as it is similar to Maverick but has Blue in it...

And yeah punishing Fire is a card thats really worth splashing for.
In Germany/Austria GWr and GW are kind of at the same popularity at the moment, which does mean quite alot cause GW was kind of the Germans Deck at first.

Crysthorn

01-08-2012, 08:29 AM

Enlightened can be nice to tutor a Canonist or Thorn to complement one another as well, though against combo, my bigger issue has been getting goldfished before I can play 2cc disruption. And again in this case the deck already has GSZ -> Teeg for a slowish permanent way to turn off Storm combo.
Teeg doesn't turn off Storm, it doesn't even slow it down too much to be honest. With Teeg on the board Storm can still dig through the deck, sculpt the perfect hand, find Chain of Vapor/Grapeshot/whatever, get rid of the kithkin and kill you, while with Canonist (instead of Teeg) their digging is muuuch slower - usually slow enough that you can kill them before they find an answer.

Philipp2293

01-08-2012, 09:16 AM

The case for Teeg against storm combo is that he allows you to steal G1s that you shouldn't win. I still see decklists that are cold to Teeg G1.

Fl0do

01-08-2012, 01:26 PM

I played Punishing Maverick on a event with 242 players and made the 32nd place with 6 - 3 record winning some store credit.

Short report.

Round 1 vs. GW Maverick: 0 - 2 He got two very good draws and find his Knights when he needs them.

Round 2 vs. UR Delver: 2 -1 In game 2 he got a very fast start, but in the other 2 games I was never under pressure.

Round 3 vs. GW Maverick: 2 - 0 Punishing Fire game 1 and Mother + Scryb Ranger game 2. Bojuka Bog with Fire vs. Knight gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Round 4 vs. Dredge: 2 - 0 He makes more mistakes and I was never ever under pressure. Two Ooze and one Bog in the maindeck helps.

Round 5 vs. Canadian: 0 - 2 Difficult matchup and I get raced by Delvers.

Round 6 vs. ANT: 2 - 1 I won game 1 (MD Teeg), game 2 I lost. In game 3 I got Ethersworn Canonist and Teeg, but he can handle them. Thanks to some attacks he is on 12 and his Ad Nauseam is not enough to win. Difficult matchup, maybe it would be easier if I would've seen my Pyroblasts one time. Countering Cantrips is just so good against Storm.

Round 7 vs. Bant Aggro: 2 - 0 Punishing Fire is King.

Round 8 vs. Punishing Maverick: 0 - 2 I know him and I know he plays the deck very well. Also he is on 5 - 1 - 1, so he has the chance to get into Top 8 (and he made top 8 and won the whole thing).

Round 9 vs. GW Maverick: 2 - 1 Game 1 I got total control of the board, thanks to Wasteland, Mother, Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam. In this long game 1 he hit me with Batterskull three times, manages to get Ooze and Knight, all three Equipments (BS, Jitte and SoFaF), Sylvan Library and Thrun, the Last troll, but it's not enough. In game 2 I keep a slow hand and got punished but game 3 was easy again.

After playing straight GW Maverick for months now, players have adapted to the deck and you will have a hard time fighting through.
Maverick with Punishing is somehow the next stage in the evolution and right now better than straight GW. As a sidenote: My first tournament with Punishing Fire and it paid off! What would've been possible with more experience and practice (Round 1 and Round 5)? I will never know, because I was too lazy :tongue:

Fatal

01-08-2012, 02:21 PM

Where was that event and what was that ? Can you link some more data about it ?

Looks like meta became more mirrored than I except ^^ - time to think about answer deck ^^.

Fl0do

01-08-2012, 04:01 PM

The event was the annual Eternal weekend in Hanau, Germany. You're right, Maverick was indeed a big part in the meta, but also was Canadian, Delver-Burn and Stoneblade.
I don't have any links right now, but I think some information about the results will be posted next week.

lordofthepit

01-08-2012, 10:30 PM

Looks like two GW/r Maverick decks in the top 8 of SCG Open.

I've been playing Punishing Fires in Naya Zoo for quite a long time, and recently switched to Maverick, and I've had a blast with both decks. That being said, I really hope the deck doesn't catch on. There are few things in Magic more boring and time consuming than a Punishing Fire mirror, and waiting on those matches to finish even if you're not actively participating in one is pretty disappointing too. :cry:

That being said, these decks are for real. Just in case anyone thinks you're a scrub unless you play blue.

iScare

01-09-2012, 02:22 AM

You might also want to -2 mindcensor, -4 mother of runes, -most of the deck and go check the bant thread. Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see how you even got the idea to cut Green Sun's Zenith to add brainstorms when the whole deck resolves / has become popular thanks to Green Sun's Zenith.

Game is usually over when a Knight of the Reliquary sticks to the board and you untap with it. I don't really see how Vendilion Clique compliments the gameplan of Maverick. Sure, it's a nice 3/1 flier with good abilities but atleast I feel like it does less than Eternal Witness for example. Overall I feel like red splash would be better than blue, but if you splash blue at least splash with creatures that are also green and therefore fetchable with GSZ.

If you want some blue cards to play, you might want to consider Edric, Spymaster of trest, Rhox War Monk and Rafiq of the Many. I've found Rhox to be somewhat good if your metagame has a lot of burn. Batterskull ofc solves that problem also, but does Stoneforge Mystic usually live until she can land a batterskull? I'd much rather fetch up Umezawa's Jitte.

Just my thoughts about adding Brainstorms, Cliques and St Traft's and cutting Mother of Runes and GSZ.

You're right. that person should just play BANT. I was only referring to the decklist someone posted recently consider splashing blue with using Cliques, Geist of St. Traft and spell pierces.

BlueNevus

01-09-2012, 01:31 PM

I would have posted in the Bant thread if I had more than 4 MD blue cards or if splashing changed the deck's strategy. The Geist list I posted is closer to the spirit of G/W maverick than Punishing Fire maverick, for example.

G/W/u w/Clique+Geist just got 3rd in the latest SCG open, the highest a Maverick deck has placed in these during the past few months.

Brainstorm would force me to cut some critical cards; see if you can pull out 4 cards from that list. GSZ gives the deck the consistency it needs. Also, adding brainstorm would double the amount of blue cards in the deck and make it more reliant on blue mana, which isn't where I want to go with choke in the board.

On Jace: Seems win more to me, especially in an aggro deck. Elspeth is the planeswalker for this deck, ending games quickly, adding resiliency against sweepers, and beating Jace. I might add another and play with 61.

On Edric: He's extremely weak to removal, which is what I'm trying to mitigate, and if your opponent doesn't have removal, a knight would have ended the game.

On Clique: Maverick is inherently weak to a some key cards: Pernicious Deed, Perish, Show + Tell, Wrath of God, Storm tutors/Ad Nauseum...Cliquing these cards away attacks your opponent's strategy in ways that G/W + G/W/r cannot. Clique and Spell Pierce deal with the cards that Maverick is most vulnerable to. Punishing Fire deals with cards/decks that Maverick has tons of outs to and natural strengths against.

Koby

01-09-2012, 02:42 PM

BlueNevus

01-09-2012, 04:06 PM

Those are good points, but it seems to me that black has a stronger disruption than Clique does. Clique is unique in that it's very aggressive, so ya it gets the nod over black's discard. But the other points I feel can be addressed with a deck that's very similar to No-force Bant.

The more blue you add, the weaker you become to other blue decks, aggro decks, and mana disruption. Adding counters dilutes the GSZ toolbox or forces you to cut Mother or Stoneforge. I love Bant and am constantly testing different variants, but the Maverick shell is my favorite and has distinct advantages over NOFOW. If there was more combo in the metagame, I'd up the Tropical/Tundra count, but for now, this is where I want to be.

Clique vs. Thoughtseize - Maverick is extremely strong because many of its creatures (Pridemage, KOTR, Ooze, [Clique]) function as both answers and threats. This flexibility allows the deck to win without Brainstorm. If it were just Clique vs. Thoughtseize, then I would give black more consideration, but Geist and Pierce seal the deal. Also, Thoughtseize is a bad topdeck in a deck that wins because it topdecks threats at a greater pace than your opponent can answer them.

Water_Wizard

01-10-2012, 01:01 AM

The more blue you add, ....

This is an interesting Maverick variant. I agree, it is closer to Maverick since it runs GSZ and not FOW/Brainstorm. How's it been playing? I bet it confuses opponents a lot. I'm thinking about giving it a test run. How is Choke in the sb? Seems strange, since it shuts down your own lands...

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bant_geist_with_adam.html

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7210&iddeck=52320

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7345&iddeck=53460

BlackStarDeceiver

01-10-2012, 02:15 AM

I gave it a try yesterday on private testing and it seems very strong against controllish Rock decks, like the rising star Nic Fit. Clique + Karakas is just plain awesome.

Geist is very strong in the mirror, providing a short clock but he seems fragile on it's own. With equipment he is just a beast. Here i am totally on par with BlueNevus - Elspeth is far superior in that list.

Edric seems weak, but he will win games that you cannot win otherwise. EoT Mindscensor or Scryb + fetch on an emtpy board combined with Edric on our turn is pretty nasty. He competes with the Sylvan Library slot somehow, maybe the second Ooze a Terravore or Thrun might be stronger.

Water_Wizard

01-10-2012, 04:41 AM

I just built the GWu build and all I have to say is "Holy 3CC Mana Slot!" Compared to GW or GWr Maverick, where I am used to 12-14 2CC drops and 6-7 3CC drops, this deck has 12-13 3CC drops and only 7 2CC drops. Without sticking a turn 1 Noble Hierarch, I'm not sure what I am going to do on turn 2, drop land, go? I guess I could play a SFM if I'm lucky enough to draw one or GSZ=1. I like to have a 2 drop in my Maverick. I'll give this deck a couple of run-throughs and let you know how it goes.

Morte

01-10-2012, 05:12 AM

The idea of a Maverick hybridized with Bant for adding the non-counter blue bombs deserves consideration. You're basically trading the robustness of the manabase for card quality and versatility.

Let’s consider the 3rd place Starcity list. It’s a good work in the sense it splashes Bant goodies but is able to keep all Maverick columns.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains

I think this list is optimized for a Stoneblade heavy meta. I wouldn’t like such a list in a vacuum. The average mana cost is very high, and I agree with Water_Wizard, with so many 3/4cc cards the risk of unkeepable or slow hands is bad, especially where tempo is popular.

Geist, again, shines against control but is less spectacular elsewhere. I could compare it to Mirran Crusader: cool, broken with equipments, but in the end there are better options.

I’d take a different route. Since your blue splash is heavy enough to allow you to support Clique and Jace, and you want more resiliency and a lower cost, I’d answer the provocation of those who say “If Brainstorm is so strong, why don’t you splash just for it?”

I’d remove Geist and Edric for Brainstorm, and I’d keep Clique and Jace. In this way you’re splashing for the best of non-counter cards of the best color – thus you’re increasing the power level of your card pool – AND you’re adding useful capabilities to the deck.

Brainstorm gives its best with so many shuffle effects.

Clique is fast, evasive, and adds a very useful tool against combo (very good thing in my meta) and control.

About Jace. Yes, it’s true he’s less coherent with Maverick strategy than Elspeth. I’d see the thing from another point of view: he’s a B-plan for situations where you can’t win with creatures, and this is very good. (Or, of course, he’s “just” a draw engine).

Compared to standard Maverick builds, you’re more resilient against perish anyway, and Brainstorm’s capability of increasing resiliency and finding answers and sideboard cards game 2 and 3 is well known.

I’m going to test this list:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Plains

Esper3k

01-10-2012, 08:59 AM

I agree with Morte's assessment on Geist - it's a lot like Mirran Crusader for me as well. It's something I really want to work, but seems to require too much deck building around to make it happen.

Especially if you're behind on the board, Geist seems like a pretty bad topdeck.

pryite199

01-10-2012, 11:23 AM

Morte that deck looks alot like the one from the last Legacy GP (Providance I believe). Which did really well even if your not running the Force of Wills in the sideboard (which I didn't care for at the time).

Koby

01-10-2012, 11:26 AM

The most important point about Jace in this deck is that is cancels out an active Jace, which considering the game state that usually occurs in, is a great thing. I could see someone going to 3 Cliques too, since that creature is such a house in the right metagame.

Flying is still king in Legacy.

EDIT: In light of the recent trend of the week, Geist of Saint Traft might be an issue for some Maverick lists (read: ALL OF THEM). Any ideas on how to answer this card? A 2/2 blocker is sufficient, provided it doesn't go Farming, but what's our insurance policy when Geist gets equipped with a Sword?

KobeBryan

01-10-2012, 05:11 PM

sdematt

01-10-2012, 05:35 PM

Wrath of God works :tongue:

Also, Horsemanship is the King of Legacy. You know it.

-Matt

MiniLuv

01-10-2012, 06:17 PM

EDIT: In light of the recent trend of the week, Geist of Saint Traft might be an issue for some Maverick lists (read: ALL OF THEM). Any ideas on how to answer this card? A 2/2 blocker is sufficient, provided it doesn't go Farming, but what's our insurance policy when Geist gets equipped with a Sword?

Tariff for Geist on your turn provided that there is no V Clique in play and if your opponent has 2 or less lands untapped. Usage is extremely situational though obviously and I'm sure there are better SB options. Maybe Mirran Crusader? Not a fan of either since it's not an instant and can also go farming before combat. And like the above mentioned, Krosan Grip for Sword.

Water_Wizard

01-10-2012, 07:18 PM

bakofried

01-10-2012, 07:20 PM

Phyrexian Metamorph as a two or three of in the board could help combat Reanimator, Show and Tell, opposing equipment, as well as Natural Order, Geist, and V. Clique. This may, however, make an E. Tutor sideboard unfeasible.

Koby

01-10-2012, 07:22 PM

Phantasmal Image may actually start to make more sense now; Metamorph is still decent but a little pricier. Maze of Ith might be able to stem some of the aggro until you can land a blocker for Geist as well.

bakofried

01-10-2012, 07:38 PM

If you want Image, you need the blue splash, and you lose quite a bit of utility in not being able to copy equipment. The difference in mana cost is fairly minimal in a deck easily capable of producing 3 mana on turn two. Not to mention it dodged Spell Snare (which is still seeing quite a bit of play).

kwelts

01-10-2012, 07:46 PM

hey everyone. lots of maverick in my meta, and I dont really know how to sideboard versus them. what is the achilles heel of the deck?

I'm playing a MUD deck and have 3 or so extra slots left over.

KobeBryan

01-10-2012, 07:56 PM

hey everyone. lots of maverick in my meta, and I dont really know how to sideboard versus them. what is the achilles heel of the deck?

I'm playing a MUD deck and have 3 or so extra slots left over.

Damn lots of creature removals, i.e. the gate, eva green, or pox.

kwelts

01-10-2012, 08:11 PM

Damn lots of creature removals, i.e. the gate, eva green, or pox.

so I just grab extra removal. hmmm. ok I'll add All Is Dust. thanks.

EDIT: Karn Liberated works well for this too. I'll try that out.

BlackStarDeceiver

01-11-2012, 01:59 AM

Cursed Totem gives me headaches. :cool:

lordofthepit

01-11-2012, 03:07 AM

EDIT: In light of the recent trend of the week, Geist of Saint Traft might be an issue for some Maverick lists (read: ALL OF THEM). Any ideas on how to answer this card? A 2/2 blocker is sufficient, provided it doesn't go Farming, but what's our insurance policy when Geist gets equipped with a Sword?

Is this a serious problem against Maverick? I feel this is a lot more of an issue for control decks (i.e. Stoneblade mirrors) where Geist can easily destroy a planeswalker. Certainly, Geist with a couple of equipment strapped on is very difficult to beat, but Maverick has so many blockers that can kill Geist easily, plus plenty of ways to get rid of opposing equipment. I don't currently consider Geist a huge issue for Maverick.

KobeBryan

01-11-2012, 03:19 AM

Is this a serious problem against Maverick? I feel this is a lot more of an issue for control decks (i.e. Stoneblade mirrors) where Geist can easily destroy a planeswalker. Certainly, Geist with a couple of equipment strapped on is very difficult to beat, but Maverick has so many blockers that can kill Geist easily, plus plenty of ways to get rid of opposing equipment. I don't currently consider Geist a huge issue for Maverick.

My geist is never useful against mav. Mav's blockers are too big for geist.

iScare

01-11-2012, 03:47 AM

My geist is never useful against mav. Mav's blockers are too big for geist.

Scryb Ranger is very useful against Geist.

Fatal

01-11-2012, 05:35 AM

Geist looks like compareable Thrun, but can be coutered, can be blocked easier, and can't be GSZed, so in Maverick it's not so good.

But in Aggro Bant it can be nuts.

KobeBryan

01-11-2012, 01:01 PM

Geist looks like compareable Thrun, but can be coutered, can be blocked easier, and can't be GSZed, so in Maverick it's not so good.

But in Aggro Bant it can be nuts.

How is it nuts in bant....bant is almost identical to mav except for some splash of blue (18 cards).

My geist is never useful against Iscare's mav deck. Should i be running SFM package with geist?

from Cairo

01-11-2012, 01:20 PM

I think Geist's power probably depends on what you run that has synergy with it. For instance lists with Elspeth, a pro:Green Sword and/or Maze of Ith, give you several cards that combo well with him. I wouldn't build around Geist due to it not really providing any utility, but Hexproof and 6 attacking power is pretty cool if it fits the build one's already working with.

I actually think Geist has better synergy in Maverick than in Bant agro. The ground tends to clog up for Bant in agro/agro-control matches. Most recent lists Source posters have been discussing have dropped the SFM package in favor of GSZ at least in the main. At this point with Mother of Runes and SFM -> Sword of X&Y, Maverick has more ways to get a ground attacker to sneak through.

I've already mentioned it in other threads, but my biggest concern with Geist is that it's cutting into the decks utility for a non-evasive beater. If one's meta has a lot of Blade Control and combo decks this is maybe fine, but if there's a lot of agro and midrange it seems like an underwhelming card to draw into.

KobeBryan

01-11-2012, 01:25 PM

Esper3k

01-11-2012, 01:33 PM

I think Geist is better against control decks because they tend not to have guys who can block / kill it on top of the hexproof being more relevant.

Against an aggro deck where you're likely on the defensive and needing to stabilize, a 3 mana 2/2 just isn't that great.

aznepyon7

01-11-2012, 04:48 PM

Would you run a SOLS or a SOBM? Sorry can't afford SOFF

If those were your choices, go with SOLS. The abilities as a whole are more useful and it dodges PtE and STP which Maverick/Bant will definitely have. It can also dodge TA/BUG control's and Eva Green's black removal spells (if you see them) and block Batterskull all day.

from Cairo

01-11-2012, 09:55 PM

Would you run a SOLS or a SOBM? Sorry can't afford SOFF

I run Jitte, Fire and Ice and Light and Shadow. Light and Shadow can be great in the mirror, and versus Bant, Junk/Deadguy and Blade Control. Fire and Ice is usually my go to against combo, and situationally ideal versus Merfolk or Goblins. Usually I'd take Jitte versus Tribal/Vial decks and Zoo.

randomly.anonymous

01-12-2012, 10:17 AM

Is Rafiq still worth running in this deck? Would it replace the spot of Thrun or Terravore in a deck with a blue splash?

Koby

01-12-2012, 03:56 PM

Is Rafiq still worth running in this deck? Would it replace the spot of Thrun or Terravore in a deck with a blue splash?

Each of these serve different purposes with regards to "breaking" through.
Thrun is best against control decks with lots of spot removal and possibly Maze of Ith.
Terravore is best against the mirror matchups to connect with equipment.
Rafiq is best against low-removal decks as a means to a fast clock.

Rafiq is actually the worst of the three because a single blocker can still prevent all the damage. I view Rafiq as a "win-more" option.

Esper3k

01-12-2012, 04:55 PM

On top of that, Rafiq is the least protected of the three, defensively, since he gets killed by pretty much any removal spell that's played in Legacy.

Koby

01-13-2012, 07:06 PM

iScare

01-13-2012, 07:35 PM

I got to thinking about some of our bad matchups. Namely Jace and sometimes Reanimator. I think that Beast Within could answers those fairly well. Has anyone tried this out in Maverick? What has been your experience?

I tried playtesting it with 2 in the deck. Just for some reason, never was able to draw it. Probably would be easier if i had 4 in the deck. It's almost never a dead card as it can destroy anything. But at 3CMC, it can be pretty pricey.

lordofthepit

01-13-2012, 11:30 PM

I got to thinking about some of our bad matchups. Namely Jace and sometimes Reanimator. I think that Beast Within could answers those fairly well. Has anyone tried this out in Maverick? What has been your experience?

I don't consider Jace decks or Reanimator decks bad matchups, although they aren't cakewalks either.

If you go the Punishing Fires route, opposing planeswalkers including Jace are ridiculously easy to kill; the flip side is it weakens your combo matchups, including Reanimator.

I prefer to load my sideboard with combo hate, thus allowing for an even higher win percentage against aggro and control decks.

Fatal

01-15-2012, 07:06 AM

Ok, I played a lot of games against Nic Fit - probably the Bane of Maverick existence, This MU is extremely hard to win.

List vs what I played was with 2 Recurring, MD 2 Kitchen Finks and 3 Liliana + 2 Pulse + 3 Deed and 4 Skriekmaws.. - 12 MD removal + 2 Edict +1 Pulse + 1 Damation so on SB, so 16 Removal which can be recurring 4 of them all mass destroying all table.

I ran standard Punishing GW/r list along with Batterskull which was MVP also Punishing Fire in this MU but still not enough..

Anyone have idea how to fix this really poor MU ? I was thinking about new Garruk, or old good Elspeth.

mini1337s

01-15-2012, 08:08 AM

CREATURES(37)
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Mother of Runes
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Eternal Witness (Considering replacing. Potentially Terravore)
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Thrun, the Last Troll

NON-CREATURE SPELLS (23)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine (Replacing with Fire and Ice)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull

LAND (23)
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
2x Plains
4x Savannah
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD:
2x Path to Exile
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Choke
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Bojuka Bog (my pet card, though it can be a blowout)
2x Krosan Grip (good, but not 100% sold. Would rather something that can be found with tutor effects. Tried 1x Pridemage, 1x K-Grip with mild success)
2x Everchanging slots. What I expect to show up to an event.

Explanations:
Roughly 200 games with this list. It initially had -1 E. Witness, -2 Elspeth, -1 SoFaF, and +3 Aven Mindcensor, +1 SoFaI.
I found that Maverick usually wants a reach effect. Aven Mindcensor was giving me that effect, but the card was too easy to deal with. Sure, it's ability was occasionally relevant, especially against other KotR decks, but I still am digging for a StP or my own KotR anyways. The +2 Elspeth allows this deck to become defensive and buy time versus opposing Knights, or more aggro matchups (though it's too slow versus say Zoo or Merfolk, so I'll board them out), and still gives me the reach I wanted with Mindcensor. The biggest downside is that I don't have a way to easily deal with Delvers in game one, thought I usually am able to Green Sun Zenith for a Scryb Ranger.
Eternal Witness really is just a 4 CMC, Green Snapcaster (GSZ to grab a StP, though sometimes Wasteland). At this point, I think I just need to run a bigger dude to deal with or outclass creatues on the ground or another removal spell to deal with flyers in the air. At this point, it will probably become a Terravore.
I initially had Fire and Ice, then I went to Feast and Famine. At this point, Feast and Famine doesn't do enough for the deck, and I get the extra mana through Gaea's Cradle. I would rather have removal on a stick, and drawing cards is never bad, so I'm switching back to Fire and Ice.
The main differences in manabase from most convential lists are extra basics and Gaea's Cradle. I hate getting blown out by Wasteland effects, because it means you then are blown out by Force Spike effects. I play carefully with my landbase, but I've found that I don't usually need the ability to have each land tap for either color. I'm considering running -1 Savannah and +1 G fetchland. I also like forcing my opponent to either hold on to their Wastelands (and I'll just play around this for days) and force them to blow up lands that are a worse option for them (like an early Horizon Canopy). Sure, cards like Canopy are relevant for their card drawing abilities, but not until the late game, at which point, I'll just use KotR to grab one. As for Gaea's Cradle, I would highly recommend it. It's too good with Dryad Arbor + Hierarch.

On splashes:
I keep seeing blue splashes. Geist is cute, but I feel like this is the wrong shell. Sure, you occasionly get him suited up with a Sword and beat face, but it's not worth diluting a manabase for. KotR will win games on his own. I like Spymaster, but it seems like it would usually just be around in "win-more" situations. The card I would most like to splash blue for would be Trygon Predator (like a -1 Pridemage, +1 Predator situation), but it's not worth it.
I played roughly 20 games with a Punishing Fire list, and I get it, but I found it was easy to struggle with mana. Really, I liked having red for Pyroblast and Firespout in the board, but it wasn't worth the manabase change.

I prefer G/W version. Typically, I feel as if I have a 55-60 matchup on most game ones (not considering combo/dredge). I would love thoughts or suggestions on the list.

Fatal

01-15-2012, 10:32 AM

E.Witness is very useful slot, I wouldn't replace it, It is always CA, even bringing wasteland/stp/countered Zenith or anything. It also very very good with Sword of Light and Shadow, you should give a try SoLaS, specially running 2 Libraries its pure draw engine connected with CA. I don't like 2 Elspeth MD, running Batterskull you almost always want SFM so should be playset -> Shuffling with library -> you cannot lose :).

I would also play 1 Tormod's instead wheel, its faster and can exile gy when you are too slow with wheel (for example reanimator)

BlackStarDeceiver

01-15-2012, 02:34 PM

Garruk 3.0 is king against Nic Fit, as is Elspeth and Surgical Extraction, against bad players K-Grip works as well.

Mini, did you try out -1 Forest -1 Savannah + 2 Taiga for REB out of the board, without using punishing fire?

Fatal

01-15-2012, 07:00 PM

I tired 2 Armaggedons and was quite well working, since we running Loam and a much less manacurve, they do nothing without a lands.

KobeBryan

01-15-2012, 08:42 PM

The affinity matchup is pretty good with mav.

Iscare made the most epic misplays today. He had 4 counters on a jitte and didn't use it on etched champion, and he scooped instead

Rizso

01-16-2012, 01:04 AM

Quarterfinal between Jakob and Nathan is probly the best game they featured the whole day. Such a swingy mirror.

About time Maverick won a legacy open :P

bakofried

01-16-2012, 01:04 AM

So the G/W Maverick (Jacob Kory) vs. Punishing Maverick (Nathan Calvin) is pretty intense. Game 2 just finished up and was insane.

Pippin

01-16-2012, 03:10 AM

Congrats rukcus on great performance! Especially in a field that is traditionally combo-ish

Way to show people that brainstorm/blue decks aren't needed to win a tournament.

Fatal

01-16-2012, 03:55 AM

Looks like American Meta became more Euro ones ;)

GG guys for nice plays.

lordofthepit

01-16-2012, 04:53 AM

Congrats, rukcus! Hoping for a tournament report soon!

I'm going to smack the next person who tells me that non-blue decks suck and are not skill-intensive. But for the latter, I will refer them to your matchup against the 15 y/o kid. Both of you played very impressively, especially for after such a long tournament. There are so many decision trees involved in a Maverick mirror and so many tricks to be played, both in combat and otherwise. It was an exciting game to watch. That being said, I definitely don't want to see too many Maverick mirrors in the future--they're very draining to play and cause tournaments to run long!

Koby

01-16-2012, 05:07 AM

Thanks for the kind words. Now is time to sleep. Report *MAYBE* by end of the week.

BlackStarDeceiver

01-16-2012, 05:57 AM

Good job, well done, that Affinity match was hilarious :D What the was he doing? :D

catmint

01-16-2012, 07:24 AM

what do you think about the new spoiled cards for maverick?

Thalia looks like a very nice hatebear...weakens GSZ,... but very powerful versus aggro control and combo decks.

I can imagine that punishing fire is very important versus the mirror and all kinds of blue decks, but black would open up the new Sorin, confidant and tidehollow sculler.
Would that be somehow useful?

Esper3k

01-16-2012, 09:13 AM

Congrats, Rukcus - way to represent! :)

ImpinAintEasy

01-16-2012, 09:37 AM

Congrats, Rukcus - way to represent! :)

Well Played Sir!

KobeBryan

01-16-2012, 01:42 PM

Rukcus...you are one HELL of a player. Congrats.

KobeBryan

01-16-2012, 02:09 PM

iscare's tournament report, drafted by Avatar.

The game was at time. The match was Iscare's Punishing Fire Mav versus a RUG Delver.

Turn 5 of the game. It was Iscare on the play. The match was already at 1 - 1. This was the deciding moment of the match. Iscare was down to 7 life, out of bolt range, out of price of progress range.

Iscare had a Knight of the Reliquary, a scryb ranger, and a mom. The other guy had a 2 delvers in play.

Iscare's knight was at 8/8. He then proceeded to cut a forest with the knight, getting a wasteland. He used his wasteland, hoping there was no stifle from the RUG delver and shot at his own savannah.

He then gives protection to his knight from mom, returns a forest with the scryb ranger and swings for the finally 11 points for damage. GAME. iscare's record is now 2-1

Then the following matchup he was playing against affinity. A very easy matchup for pfmav. Iscare had a scyrb ranger out equipped with a jitte with 4 counters. His opponent with 2 etched champion, one equipped with cranial plating. Iscare was down to 5 life.

It was Iscare on the play. the match was at 1-1. Iscare used his jitte counters to gain life. And then tried to attack. Knowing that he cannot block the etched champion on his opponent's turn, iscared scooped the match. He is now at 2-2 and out of contention.

jnosrati

01-16-2012, 02:41 PM

Jacob, I have this strange feeling that you weren't running terminate in maverick. Care to post a more accurate list? thanks!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43198

Koby

01-16-2012, 02:47 PM

Terminate... Terravore... they're all terrible; including my hand writing.

iScare

01-16-2012, 03:37 PM

Good job, well done, that Affinity match was hilarious :D What the was he doing? :D

Please disregard Avatar of Shadow's commentating regarding the Affinity match up. I gave the game away. I misunderstood's etched champion's "Pro: from all colors." I thought i couldn't shoot them with my Jitte. I should have had board control as I had grove of the burnwillows out, Oooze at 8/8, Maze of Ith, Noble Hierarch and Scryb Ranger with Jitte equipped (w/4 counters) and Punishing Fire in the GY. My opponent had two Etched Champion out, one was equipped with Cranial Plating. For some stupid reason, i thought I couldn't target them with Jitte, but i was Mazing one of them the whole match up. I should have known that if i could have mazed them, i should be able to shoot them with Jitte. So pretty much the misplay cost me the game. I had never practice match up with Affinity. But after playing it, I feel that PF Mav can easily beat it. Maybe my hunger after 4-5 hours of playing got the best of me.

Overall, it was a fun event. I think it was a good learning experience. It was my 1st big tournament and who would have thought they wouldn't give you a lunch break. I didn't think the event was gonna go on for 8-10 hour straight.

jnosrati

01-16-2012, 03:37 PM

Thanks a lot bro. Im testing a new deck and would love to see how it does vs a good maverick pilot. Its sort somthin between my old zoo and thresh. Let me know if/when you're down to play on cockatrice (in israel currently)

Oh, and congrats!

ThePrevailer

01-16-2012, 05:00 PM

I just won with Maverick at my local store (9 people, but all good Pilots with powerful decks). This is also my first post here, though I've been reading this thread since July.

Here's a report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22981-1st-place-with-Maverick-at-Exalted-Games&p=613439#post613439

mini1337s

01-16-2012, 05:24 PM

Mini, did you try out -1 Forest -1 Savannah + 2 Taiga for REB out of the board, without using punishing fire?

I did actually (why Foothills is my other green fetch :P), and had success with it. I had 3x REB and 2x Firespout (Delver and opposing Maverick decks. Worked really well when I had Elspeth) in the side. I went back to the Tutor package though, as it's really only good when it's unexpected. It's certainly helpful versus Tempo to have REB though.

Fatal

01-16-2012, 05:27 PM

Welcome, and good luck, you should complete first core such a cards like wastelands, jitte, 4 GSZs, Mother of Runes are must have.

Also MD Canonists aren't too good in deck with such a manacurve.

maurobad2k4

01-16-2012, 07:00 PM

Koby

01-16-2012, 07:13 PM

Fastest kills from the tournament:

Round 8 - Game 1 - Play
Me: Forest, Hierarch
Opp: Tundra
Me: Waste Tundra, Pridemage
Opp: Fetch
Me: Fetch, GSZ for Pridemage, attack for 5 with Pridemage
Opp: Karakas SFM EOT, StP SFM
Me: Fetch, KotR, Hierarch, attack for 6 (no more hand)
Opp: dead on board with 1 land in play.

Top 8 - Game 1 - Draw (I drew each game in the mirror match FYI, lower land count dictated I needed to find more of them)

turn 1 - Fetch, hierarch
turn 2 - fetch, mom, hierarch
turn 3 - Gaea's Cradle, KotR
turn 4 - SofI, equip to KotR, attack (no blocks 19->12)
Turn 5 - GSZ for Scryb Ranger, fetch, KotR for fetch, fetch, pro:green with Mom, attack for lethal.

mini1337s

01-16-2012, 07:28 PM

It seems it was a good weekend for us Maverick players, because I won a playset of Taiga last Saturday and the deck is finally making sucess in the SCG Opens. My list is slightly different from yours, but I'll withhold it for the moment because there is a important tourney next Sunday.

Do you think there is a chance of combo decks returning or the Tempo decks will keep them away ? So far the ambient is really good for this deck.
From the LA SCG Open:

Where have the combo decks been lately?
John Kornacki
Force of Will and Surgical Extraction have been holding them down.

Rick Zou
I think more people just like fair decks that let you interact with your opponent.

Vidianto Wijaya
People are lazy and just want to play decks like Maverick, but that’s not going to fly in this format. People have been trimming Force of Will, but I doubt six will be enough this weekend.

Greg Hatch
Spell Pierce is seeing heavy play, and Snapcaster Mage gives decks redundant protection maindeck. It just gets worse for the combo decks after board.

James Gates
Snapcaster Mage pushes the aggro-control decks to the top, and the combo decks can’t compete.

Someone suggested, somewhere in this thread I believe, that because there are so many U/W Blade decks that can often beat combo like ANT or Belcher, that combo is often kept down during large tournaments. At this point, there are enough non-blue decks performing well that we may see a bit of a resurgence, but those non-blue decks can pack ample hate as well.
Combo decks can also be very skill intensive, and easily fold.
Right now, I semi-agree with Vidianto Wijaya and Rick Zou, as, while I don't know if it's just people being lazy, people want to play fair decks, especially ones that beat up on U/x control decks.

Water_Wizard

01-16-2012, 10:38 PM

Fastest kills from the tournament:

Top 8 - Game 1 - Draw (I drew each game in the mirror match FYI, lower land count dictated I needed to find more of them)

turn 1 - Fetch, hierarch
turn 2 - fetch, mom, hierarch
turn 3 - Gaea's Cradle, KotR
turn 4 - SofI, equip to KotR, attack (no blocks 19->12)
Turn 5 - GSZ for Scryb Ranger, fetch, KotR for fetch, fetch, pro:green with Mom, attack for lethal.
Interesting that you drew against the mirror, but it makes sense, 22 lands, 4 mana dorks, 4 GSZ (potentially finds dryad), it helps to have the extra card.

I like the 2X KotR swing FTW! Congratulations!

Looking forward to the tournament report :smile:

lorddotm

01-16-2012, 10:46 PM

I guess this goes here. No I haven't read the thread. I still don't know why I bothered thinking about a GW Aggro deck, but alas here it goes:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Vengevine
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Basking Rootwalla
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Craddle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

SB: 1 Jötun Grunt
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Batterskull

Similar to the old G/W Survival decks, it should beat Zoo and stuff by having more Stoneforges and Goyfs than they have.

I might move the Jötun to the main, dropping a Pridemage. He gives you insane inevitability with Fauna Shaman. I haven't tested the list, but I definitely like how it looks. The SB Missteps are for Control (counters Snare and Swords) and Combo (slows them down enough for us to land a hate bear).

This deck was sweet. Anyone think an updated version could be good against the mirror?

Koby

01-16-2012, 11:15 PM

I guess this goes here. No I haven't read the thread. I still don't know why I bothered thinking about a GW Aggro deck, but alas here it goes:

3 Mother of Runes
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Craddle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle

No. Clearly missing are:

Iona, Shield of Emeria + Loyal Retainers
Elesh Norn + Loyal Retainers
Garruk Relentless (tutoring -1 ability)

EDIT:
Houston, we have a problem.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

Zand

01-17-2012, 01:11 AM

How well do you guys think this deck can function in a meta involving that card? Do we need to start sideboarding more artifact hate? Is it even worth siding in against us compared to other decks?

I personally am not that hopeful...

Edit: to be clear I'm talking about Grafdigger's Cage

mini1337s

01-17-2012, 01:56 AM

KobeBryan

01-17-2012, 02:01 AM

As far as a kneejerk reaction goes, I'm just going to up my maindeck Qasali Pridemage, and remove 1-2 GSZ targets. It will definitely make life more difficult, but I think we should be able to deal with it, especially if we do 4x Pridemage in the main, and maybe 3 artifact hate cards in the side.

If anything, I wonder if a card like this will make BANT aggro stronger. Trygon Predator seems like a big game :D

Why would you even worry about this card in maverick. You run 24+ creatures. If they opponent wants to waste 4 card slots for this card plus whatever creature removal they have, let them.

If i know my opponent will be doing that against me, i'd be ecstatic. Sure they may nullify my 3-4 green sun zenith.

MiniLuv

01-17-2012, 02:07 AM

I want to play a Gaddock Teeg turn 2 against this and be like "O_o' ok?"

majikal

01-17-2012, 02:09 AM

Why would you even worry about this card in maverick. You run 24+ creatures. If they opponent wants to waste 4 card slots for this card plus whatever creature removal they have, let them.

If i know my opponent will be doing that against me, i'd be ecstatic. Sure they may nullify my 3-4 green sun zenith.
This. Personally, I will be packing at least one in my own sideboard. The benefit it provides this deck far outweighs the harm it does to our GSZ plan. Plus, what decks will play it that we are afraid of that it won't just hurt even more?

KobeBryan

01-17-2012, 02:13 AM

I want to play a Gaddock Teeg turn 2 against this and be like "O_o' ok?"

Why would you NOT be able to play gaddock teeg on turn 2? And what deck who you need to use gaddock teeg against will use this card against you?

MiniLuv

01-17-2012, 02:16 AM

Why would you NOT be able to play gaddock teeg on turn 2? And what deck who you need to use gaddock teeg against will use this card against you?

You obviously misunderstood me

maktus

01-17-2012, 07:35 AM

maurobad2k4

01-17-2012, 08:07 AM

what do you think of:
-4 GSZ
+4 mentor of the meek
-2 sylvan library
+2 lanowar/birds/etc?

It looks terrible.

Sure, the Cage is an annoying card to deal with, but it doesnt shut off our deck completely, far from it. We can still cast our dudes naturally, use Kotr and Stoneforge fetching abilities, etc. We're already using Qasali and Krosan Grip to deal with troublesome artifacts as well.

mordraid

01-17-2012, 08:14 AM

Sure, the Cage is an annoying card to deal with, but it doesnt shut off our deck completely, far from it. We can still cast our dudes naturally, use Kotr and Stoneforge fetching abilities, etc. We're already using Qasali and Krosan Grip to deal with troublesome artifacts as well.

I agree. This cards hurts reanimator and snapcaster mages way more than it does hurt maverick.

Koby

01-17-2012, 11:36 AM

I could also consider running KGrip again in the sideboard. Being able to hit problematic permanents without relying on GSZ has a benefit at times. (Such as Cursed Totem, Humility, or the Cage)

mordraid

01-17-2012, 01:26 PM

I could also consider running KGrip again in the sideboard. Being able to hit problematic permanents without relying on GSZ has a benefit at times. (Such as Cursed Totem, Humility, or the Cage)

I'm still leaving 2 krosan grip in my sideboard as well as the usual e-tutor package

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 02:59 PM

In light of Cage, is Fauna Shaman something worth considering again? I realize Fauna can become a slippery slope, changing the form of the deck considerably. If you're adding Fauna, you might as well add Loyal Retainers, and then you might as well add Elesh and Iona, and heck, why not throw in a playset of Vengevines as well (although Vengevine doesn't work with Cage)...

It will be interesting to see if Cage is played main. It will depend on the Meta, but I'm thinking at first, it won't be, as it is a dead draw against decks without GSZ/Snapcaster. It wouldn't surprise me if the current (balanced) meta polarized to two extremes, with non-PiF Storm taking one extreme and Countertop taking another. If this happens, Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins will all be able to come out and play again.

I'm thinking of a transformational sideboard. Adding two Qasali Pridemage and 2 KGrips game 2 against decks that would run Cage. However, if Countertop comes back, they could run 1 Cage G1 with Enlightened Tutors main deck.

Could someone give me examples of cards that are cast from the library?

Cast from the graveyard stops flashback,
creatures entering the battlefield from the graveyard stop unearth, animate dead, exhume, reanimate and creatures with unearth (bye, bye Hellspark Elemental)
and creatures entering from the library stops GSZ and Natural Order.

It's interesting how much this one card will impact the meta. Dredge is dead (I assume this stops Nacromeba, Ichorid, Dread Return, etc.), Reanimator, too. Snapcaster bye, bye, GSZ and Natural Order are no more. It looks like Canadian Thresh (snapcasterless RUG Tempo), PiF-less Storm, Team America, Tribal (Elves, Goblins, Merfolk), Zoo, Burn, heck, I might give Charbelcher a try ;) and snap-casterless UW are the only decks that remain. I think a UWB control deck will be very strong, especially with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (think SFM, SDT, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, Sorin, Jace, FOW, Thoughtseize, STP - Sorin gives enough of a reason to splash black in UW and you have the free slots since Snapcaster will suck). It seems like Cage rips the heart out of a balanced meta, a meta which most players are happy with, sans the ever-present Brainstorm argument, and allows decks at both extremes to become dominant again, allowing 2nd-tier strategies to fill the gaps.

I think I'm playing Ascension with Chalice of Life/Death.

zulander

01-17-2012, 03:20 PM

If you're changing your deck because of this card you're a terrible player. It shuts off 3-4 cards in the deck, not the decks strategy.

lyracian

01-17-2012, 03:35 PM

Could someone give me examples of cards that are cast from the library?I can not think of anything used in Legacy but Garruk's Horde lets you play the top card of your library.

It's interesting how much this one card will impact the meta. Dredge is dead (I assume this stops Nacromeba, Ichorid, Dread Return, etc.), Reanimator, too. Snapcaster bye, bye, GSZ and Natural Order are no more. It looks like Canadian [/QUOTE]I really do not see this killing Dredge. They can still dredge and get Bridge Tokens. They have lots of cheap creatures they can cast like golgari thug all they need is to run more Darkblasts & Firestorms for killing them off.

KobeBryan

01-17-2012, 04:15 PM

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 04:28 PM

If you're changing your deck because of this card you're a terrible player. It shuts off 3-4 cards in the deck, not the decks strategy.

The deck's strategy is GSZ. The rise of Maverick came with the printing of GSZ. What makes the deck powerful is the ability to pull many silver bullets out of the deck. Pre-GSZ, there was a version of the deck that ran Aether Vial (a revitalization of this deck is discussed a few pages back), but I don't think it would cut it in the current meta.

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 04:30 PM

I can not think of anything used in Legacy but Garruk's Horde lets you play the top card of your library.

It's interesting how much this one card will impact the meta. Dredge is dead (I assume this stops Nacromeba, Ichorid, Dread Return, etc.), Reanimator, too. Snapcaster bye, bye, GSZ and Natural Order are no more. It looks like Canadian I really do not see this killing Dredge. They can still dredge and get Bridge Tokens. They have lots of cheap creatures they can cast like golgari thug all they need is to run more Darkblasts & Firestorms for killing them off.

Okay, thanks. That's what I was thinking, too. There are some blue cards that allow you to do this as well (play with the top card of your library revealed and you may cast it as if it was in your hand... not sure if this final part of the language negates Cage, but it's the same mechanic as Garruk's Horde).

KobeBryan

01-17-2012, 04:30 PM

The deck's strategy is GSZ. The rise of Maverick came with the printing of GSZ. What makes the deck powerful is the ability to pull many silver bullets out of the deck. Pre-GSZ, there was a version of the deck that ran Aether Vial (a revitalization of this deck is discussed a few pages back), but I don't think it would cut it in the current meta.

So you are saying this one card will destroy my entire strategy with gsz, a 4 of in my deck? just because I cannot search for my ooze?

I welcome the opponent who boards 4 of these against me.

Now please explain to me how reanimator is dead

Esper3k

01-17-2012, 04:32 PM

I'm not too afraid of Cage for Maverick. It's just like having a Teeg out, only shutting off our GSZs.

I think it's pretty decent against Dredge and Reanimator as its a hoser that they can't Pithing Needle.

Probably pretty bad against SCM decks for the same reason it's bad against us. You shut off 4 of their cards costing you one of your own but they still have a 2/1.

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 04:36 PM

Can you explain to me why reanimator, mav, and snapcaster decks are dead? Maybe dredge too?

I dont see it?

Reanimator because all of your reanimation spells are dead - creatures cannot come into play from the graveyard, so Exhume, Reanimate and Animate Dead don't work. You're only avenue is Show and Tell and then you're no longer playing a Reanimator deck.

Mav needs GSZ to pull out silver bullets and fatties.

Snapcaster decks aren't dead, they'll just replace Snapcaster and alter the build. UW will pick up Black or Counterbalance and Thresh will pick up Nimble Mongoose.

Dredge is dead because their major method of making zombie tokens is Narcomoeba and Ichorid. From what I understand about the rules, neither of these cards will work. Additionally Dread Return is a major token builder/fattie reanimator in Dredge, and this will no longer work as well. Also, Cabal Therapy is dead, another major avenue to fight combo/control and make zombie tokens.

KobeBryan

01-17-2012, 04:41 PM

Reanimator because all of your reanimation spells are dead - creatures cannot come into play from the graveyard, so Exhume, Reanimate and Animate Dead don't work. You're only avenue is Show and Tell and then you're no longer playing a Reanimator deck.

Mav needs GSZ to pull out silver bullets and fatties.

Snapcaster decks aren't dead, they'll just replace Snapcaster and alter the build. UW will pick up Black or Counterbalance and Thresh will pick up Nimble Mongoose.

Dredge is dead because their major method of making zombie tokens is Narcomoeba and Ichorid. From what I understand about the rules, neither of these cards will work. Additionally Dread Return is a major token builder/fattie reanimator in Dredge, and this will no longer work as well. Also, Cabal Therapy is dead, another major avenue to fight combo/control and make zombie tokens.

So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.

majikal

01-17-2012, 04:47 PM

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 04:49 PM

Wait... why didn't anyone tell me that GSZ was the strategy of this deck? I've just been casting dudes and turning them sideways! I've been doing it all wrong!

Now I have to give back all the money I've won. :cry:

At least someone can make light of this situation :smile:

It seems much more productive than calling me a terrible player :smile:

Koby

01-17-2012, 04:51 PM

<InterestingMan>I don't always cast Green Sun's Zenith, but when I do, I cast it every turn.</InterestingMan>

I do find that most games I'm casting GSZ frequently. The deck derives its consistency and power from the flexibility of GSZ, rather than just running out some dorks from the hand. However, simply just casting SFM and ignore GSZ for the game is a fine strategy too.

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 04:56 PM

So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.

Like Esper3K said a few posts ago, it can't be Pithing Needled. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb and Scavenging Ooze can all be turned off by Needle.

Additionally, Cage is a constant effect. Unlike other artifact hate, which you must sacrifice to use (sans-Relic's 1-of ability), Cage is constant. Ooze must be activated and usually isn't online until turn 3 and can only target as many cards as you have green mana open.

You can bounce Cage, like you can bounce Leyline of the Void, but usually you know when to expect Leyline. Cage is colorless and can be run in any deck, making it more difficult to sideboard against, unless you just come to expect it.

Esper3k

01-17-2012, 04:57 PM

Certainly GSZ is one of the backbone cards of the deck, but shutting out GSZ alone hardly kills us (unlike how badly this card wrecks other decks like Dredge).

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 05:09 PM

Certainly GSZ is one of the backbone cards of the deck, but shutting out GSZ alone hardly kills us (unlike how badly this card wrecks other decks like Dredge).

Agreed.

What concerns me about Cage is how quickly it shuts of GSZ. It's true, Teeg and Aven Mindcensor shut down GSZ as well (or significantly hinder it in the case of the latter), but they aren't active until turn 2 at earliest and we have readily available removal (Karakas, STP, PTE, Punishing Fire for Teeg and the same sans-Karakas for Mindcensor). With Cage, we have 1-3 cards maindeck that shut it down, depending on how many we run (Qasali Pridemage), which we now have to draw naturally.

What I'm worried about is Game 2 when I'm on the draw and I keep a 2 lander because I'm relying on Turn 1 GSZ->Dryad Arbor and they drop a turn 1 Cage. Now I need to wait until I have 3 mana to activate Pridemage or Krosan Grip, because I'm not running my Pridemage out there without sac mana up.

Cage just hits the board rather quickly, as opposed to the other GSZ hate available and we have less removal available for Cage.

Water_Wizard

01-17-2012, 05:18 PM

Changing the topic to something hopefully a little less controversial, I think Garruk Relentless has found a spot in my sideboard. Currently, I put it in the Thrun spot, as a card to bring in against Control (UW), Nic Fit and Pox. I've been having trouble with sweepers (WOG, Damnation and Pernicious Deed), which Thrun does not survive. Additionally, against Pox, I've found it hard to climb out from under turn 1 Liliana.

Ideally, I would like to run both Garruk Relentless and Thrun, but right now I can't find the extra spot (sans moving Thrun to the main, which I don't feel is right for Punishing Mav). Thrun has definitely won me games and I like the fact that he is a GSZ target (at least until Cage prints, ha ha), but I like the fact that I can create a creature every turn, lightning bolt an opponent's creature and search a creature out of my deck with Garruk (potentially circumventing Grafdigger's Cage, if and when that becomes an issue).

Esper3k

01-17-2012, 05:21 PM

Agreed.

What concerns me about Cage is how quickly it shuts of GSZ. It's true, Teeg and Aven Mindcensor shut down GSZ as well (or significantly hinder it in the case of the latter), but they aren't active until turn 2 at earliest and we have readily available removal (Karakas, STP, PTE, Punishing Fire for Teeg and the same sans-Karakas for Mindcensor). With Cage, we have 1-3 cards maindeck that shut it down, depending on how many we run (Qasali Pridemage), which we now have to draw naturally.

What I'm worried about is Game 2 when I'm on the draw and I keep a 2 lander because I'm relying on Turn 1 GSZ->Dryad Arbor and they drop a turn 1 Cage. Now I need to wait until I have 3 mana to activate Pridemage or Krosan Grip, because I'm not running my Pridemage out there without sac mana up.

Cage just hits the board rather quickly, as opposed to the other GSZ hate available and we have less hate available.

Sure it's going to hurt us some but as far as hate goes, I think it's pretty soft compared to things that truly wreck us like Perish or Deed.

majikal

01-18-2012, 12:16 AM

If only we had maindeck slots dedicated to removing pesky artifacts. :(

Esper3k

01-18-2012, 12:26 AM

If only we had maindeck slots dedicated to removing pesky artifacts. :(

Now that's just crazy talk.

Fatal

01-18-2012, 05:34 AM

I don't see dangerous from new Cage, its rather poor strategy vs Maverick. It shut down 4 cards in deck, also we have MD answers (Qasali) and more on sb.

Btw which archetype would play Cage ? This is already much better hate vs Maverick - Cursed Totem, but it's still not enough since you can bring Engineered Explosives/Krosan vs it, so no worries.

BTW: Congrats for everyone playing well this archtype - we are still DTB nr1 with quite huge advantage over next deck :)

Artlee

01-18-2012, 07:54 AM

Sure GSZ is good. But would any of you as a zoo pilot side in Teeg to stop GSZ from resolving, even if you were playing versus GW Mav without punishing fire??

Koby

01-18-2012, 12:32 PM

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

01-18-2012, 12:39 PM

+1 for Elspeth. She closes games a lot faster than Thrun and doesn't require the mana to stick around in sticky situations.

Elspeth gives every deck trouble. And your dudes randomly get over moat. Give that Scryb double flying.

When I see an opposing Thrun the idea is to stall him out and get to victory by other means (i.e. Jace, flying over your dudes or cloning him).

bakofried

01-18-2012, 01:06 PM

I must ask people's opinion on the dysynergy between Teeg and Elspeth.

Koby

01-18-2012, 01:26 PM

I must ask people's opinion on the dysynergy between Teeg and Elspeth.

Don't play Teeg when you anticipate needing Elspeth? We still run Karakas to bounce Teeg when we need to.

lordofthepit

01-18-2012, 02:12 PM

Good point Artlee. I normally board out Teeg againt other GSZ decks unless they run Jace or Natural Order in addition. The new Cage is merely an annoyance like Teeg is; but a little tricker to remove. I'm starting to change the Thrun for Elspeth. Thrun has been really underwhelming in non-control matchups. Having the PW helps the aggro matchups much more than Thrun.

Thoughts on maindeck Thrun vs. Elspeth?

No contest, Elspeth. You have to anticipate Wrath, Perish, etc. coming in from the sideboard against a lot of decks, where Elspeth is much better and even harder to remove. Elspeth is also much better against aggro. It's randomly good against crap like Progenitus, Moat, and slow board control decks too.

In pretty much every matchup where you would want a resilient 4-cc bomb, I like Elspeth better. In the other matchups (i.e. most combo decks), you'd be boarding both out anyway.

Esper3k

01-18-2012, 02:27 PM

I may be weird, but I've been liking Thrun myself, even against aggro decks.

His Hexproof and good p/t make him a crazy wall that a lot of aggro decks have a tough time getting through. Maybe I've been burned too many times by a Knight getting Pathed/Submerged, but I've rarely been saddened to see Thrun.

Obvs, him being able to be GSZ'd is a large factor in playing him as a 1-of vs a 1-of Elspeth.

Einherjer

01-18-2012, 03:23 PM

majikal

01-18-2012, 08:17 PM

I'm starting to change the Thrun for Elspeth. Thrun has been really underwhelming in non-control matchups. Having the PW helps the aggro matchups much more than Thrun.

Thoughts on maindeck Thrun vs. Elspeth?

I run one of each in the MD and it has been awesome for me.

Ajsmirnov

01-18-2012, 11:48 PM

I run one of each in the MD and it has been awesome for me.

And Teeg also, or no?

Water_Wizard

01-19-2012, 12:15 AM

Water_Wizard

01-19-2012, 01:49 AM

I beg, I just beg my enemies are idiotic enough to board in the cage against me. I mean... thats hillarious... It would shut off 4 cards - and as said we run 1-3 maindeckanswers ROFL ROFL ROFL

Please do so, my dear opponents..

They aren't bringing it in just against you, but against the field. Look at the top 16 from the recent SCG LA - http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2012-01-15&end_date=2012-01-22&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks

4 Maverick
2 Stoneblade
2 Reanimator
3 RUG
1 Team America (RWU)
1 Dredge
1 AggroLoam
1 Belcher
1 Eureka

Cage affects 13 out of these 16 decks. 3 are significantly affected (Reanimator/Dredge) and 10 are partially affected in terms of GSZ or Snapcaster. So, Cage represent a potential meta shift, which will lead to an uncertain meta for a time. However, Maverick has been notoriously resilient in adapting to new metas.

My major concerns are decks that will be running Cage as a 1-of with tutor capability (Enlightened Tutor, Tezzeret, Trinket Mage, etc.). I think we will be seeing a shift in meta and who knows what will come up or become popular. As I predicted earlier, I think it will shift to each extreme - combo players will have their reawakening and control, namely CounterTop will make a comeback. The current meta is right down the middle - neither aggro or control, and personally, I like it.

A secondary concern is the Anti-Legacy Legacy deck. Since this card impacts so much of the current meta, a deck may arise that is just created to hate on common decks. This happens in Classic. For example, check out this deck: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=77487 It looks like a piece of junk! 4 Maindeck Trygon Predator, 4 Qasali's Pridemage and 2 Nature's Claim? But when you consider the 2 major decks in Classic are Oath of Druids and Shop (Artifacts), you can understand how this deck can do well. So, my concern is players will craft a deck just to hate the meta and Cage will be a cornerstone, causing Mav to get caught up in the crossfire.

As always, we won't know until it happens. Furthermore, not even half of Dark Ascension has been spoiled, so there may be some answers or other surprises lurking in the set. For the time being, I think we just have to agree to disagree. Most posters think Cage will have little to no effect on Maverick, some people even welcome the change, viewing Cage as a weak answer to Maverick. People like me remain cautious, as we realize what a potential impact Grafdigger's Cage most likely will have on the meta.

majikal

01-19-2012, 03:29 AM

Maverick is that hate deck.

Mr.Dieth

01-19-2012, 05:14 AM

How can anyone say cage is good against maverick? You forget they are doing their first turn nothing, and they play 4 cards to counter your 4gsz, sounds like an even trade? and often I don't need to gsz I just play a stoneforge/knight form hand and beat them to dead.

Why is nobody discussing Thalia? That card is the complete Nuts for maverick. We have a maindeckable good answer to combo now, it is good vs aggro ( first strike ! ) perish proof. And the minor mana disruption helps the wasteland plan. I think Maverick is going to be the dread of the format after this set.

Fatal

01-19-2012, 06:43 AM

Isn't already Dread of the Legacy ? :)

Anyway I don't like Thalia - its nice taxing vs combo, but we taxing also our removal and GSZ, which isn't too good for us, I think it's rather belong to D&T than Maverick.

Mr.Dieth

01-19-2012, 12:59 PM

Yes, but most of the time you can affort paying 2 mana for a stp, ok zenithing for a knigh becomes harder, But I think your opponent is going to have way ore problems with Thalia.

Think about it. Vs control-ish decks. Jace suddently costs 5 mana ( ! ) They can't tap out anymore because Fow and daze costs mana. Snapcaster mage also loses a lot of value.

Agaist dredge and reanimator. Also very very good. I think dredge can just GG against Thalia and a wasteland turn 2. Even without wasteland it'll be gg.

Against merfolk. A 2/1 firstriker is also pretty handy, and again, shuts of their counter package.

And goblins just rolls over and dies to a 2/1 firstriker turn 2 with a turn 1 mor. ( Not that goblins still sees a lot of play)

I can name advantages to Talia all day long
even more so if we compare her to aven mindcensor

Koby

01-19-2012, 02:33 PM

Thalia is in no way more advantageous to Thorns in the matchups where that effect matters. being non-Green is a big deal; Thorn of Amethyst we can tutor with Enlightened.

I can't see how Thalia is better for this deck than Thorn of Amethyst.

Mr.Dieth

01-19-2012, 04:04 PM

Thalia Attacks/blocks/firststrikes/picksup equipment? How is that not better then a thorn :-S explain plx.

Maverick has played aven mincensor for ages, minor disruption with a 2/1 flying body. I find thalia much better in that spot. ( If you dislike that spot, I can see you also dislike Thalia, But I have won tournaments on aven mindcensor :) ) ((( European Meta perhaps )))

It annoys the opponent, not so much you. and there is just so much synergy with the deck. ( How often do you win games on the back of wasteland, Thalia complements that plan )

But I have to be honest, haven't tested it yet. But I will!

Koby

01-19-2012, 04:33 PM

Think about the role Thalia/Thorn plays in this deck. When would you bring in an effect that taxes non-creature spells?

Think about how early you would want that effect - which of the tutor packages allows you to find one rather than the other?

Mr.Dieth

01-19-2012, 06:18 PM

Marke

01-19-2012, 07:43 PM

I would play it maindeck instead of my 3 aven mincensors :)
So a turn 1 noble followed up with a turn 2 thalia and a wasteland sounds like a Really good play :).

Against what deck isn't a non creature tax effect good? Against which DTB would Thalia suck at the moment? and you don't have to forget a 2/1 first striker non green is usefell all by itself!

Thalia just dissables so many T1 cards/stratgies.

Remember compare it with the aven mindcensor slot!

Thalia seems incredibly good in this deck. It is fantastic against any blue deck and combo deck and is much better then thorn of amethyst because it's a creature. You can protect it with mother or even karakas giving you a protected lock against certain decks and just a great tool to slow them down against others. 2/1 first strike is not bad either as it chops up small dorks all day.
I can definately see three main deck with a slight adjustment to play less top heavy non-creatures to accomodate it.
Thalia would be sick in some vial build by the way, really makes me want to test some sort of vial deck.

Zand

01-19-2012, 08:01 PM

If you're using her against combo, using Karakas to bounce her seems abuot the same as them removing her... She seems like she doesn't fit Maverick just because GSZ can't grab her (so you wont want to run a single version of her...), she is legendary so having multiples sucks and obviously Enlightened Tutor can't grab her. I can't comment on how viable she is with a Vial build as I've always used GSZ.

iScare

01-20-2012, 01:06 AM

Instead of running Etutor, you might want to replace it with Worldly Tutor. It can fetch up Cannonist, Teeg or Thalia (Or even any creature in the deck.)

Leftconsin

01-20-2012, 01:44 AM

iScare, all but one of those cards can already be searched for by the deck. And the land portion of Worldly Tutor is already blown away by KotR. Plus if you ran Worldly instead you'd need to replace stuff like Choke, Ensnaring Bridge, Jitte, and so on with men or lands that fill those often singleton board slots.

majikal

01-20-2012, 02:07 AM

Koby

01-20-2012, 02:16 AM

Fl0do

01-20-2012, 02:25 AM

Maybe Tutor-Sideboards are generally outdated. I played my last Sideboard with E-Tutor in a GP-Trial for Grand Prix Amsterdam and I don't felt comfortable with it.
You may search a bomb in any given matchup, but there's always the danger for a bad trade und you give information to your opponent. I don't think the risk is it worth when you can get there with another Sideboard.

Water_Wizard

01-20-2012, 03:03 AM

There's only 2 matchups where I board in both Choke and E-tutor: High Tide and Hive Mind. Or more generally, slow Blue-based combo decks. Trying to find Choke with E-tutor is a waste of SB slots - I haven't found that many dead cards against the controlling blue decks to afford both Choke and Tutor; and so I don't board in tutor.

I've not had good luck with Choke against High Tide. Once they start going off, Choke's effect doesn't matter because they are untapping all of their Islands anyway. I know there are the times we could catch them off guard, but usually we drop Choke on turn 2/3, they may have 1 or 2 tapped islands. They wait until the have 3 untapped, High Tide, Turnabout and combo off. I've never tried it against Hive Mind, but I imagine the same to be true. I guess the reality is against both of these deck (High Tide and Hive Mind), we have so many dead cards to take out that it doesn't make sense not to board in Choke. Ruckus, using your SCGLA list against High Tide, I'm +2 Canonist, +2 Choke, +2 E Tutor, - 4 STP, - 1 Terravore (dies with Time Spiral), -1 Thrun (too slow) I would do the same against Hive Mind except +1 Metamorph/-1 Jitte. Is this what you do?

Maybe Tutor-Sideboards are generally outdated. I played my last Sideboard with E-Tutor in a GP-Trial for Grand Prix Amsterdam and I don't felt comfortable with it.
You may search a bomb in any given matchup, but there's always the danger for a bad trade und you give information to your opponent. I don't think the risk is it worth when you can get there with another Sideboard.

I switched to a non-E-tutor sideboard. I still haven't played very many games with it, but I'll report back when I do. It's interesting that the Europe meta Maverick players play non-E tutor boards while the American meta Maverick players all play E tutor sideboards. Is each right for their own meta or is one a better build?

Compare Decks 1 & 4 (although not 11 & 15) http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22965-Hanau-(Frankfurt-GER)-Win-a-Lotus-Legacy-Event-Top16

with Decks 1, 4, 5 & 9 http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2012-01-15&end_date=2012-01-22&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks

Thoughts?

majikal

01-20-2012, 01:46 PM

I'd say that whether or not you run E. Tutor is dependent on how much combo you think you will see. If there is historically a significant presence of Snapcaster decks in your meta I wouldn't worry about it too much, as they should suppress the combo decks enough that you just won't see them. However, in a large, partly unpredictable environment like a SCG Open event or Grand Prix where people will play Belcher and ANT regardless of how good they are against the field, I would play E. Tutor simply because it gives you the most options.

Koby

01-20-2012, 02:50 PM

I guess the reality is against both of these deck (High Tide and Hive Mind), we have so many dead cards to take out that it doesn't make sense not to board in Choke. Ruckus, using your SCGLA list against High Tide, I'm +2 Canonist, +2 Choke, +2 E Tutor, - 4 STP, - 1 Terravore (dies with Time Spiral), -1 Thrun (too slow) I would do the same against Hive Mind except +1 Metamorph/-1 Jitte. Is this what you do?

Thoughts?

Bingo - the creature removal is dead, Jitte is dead, Thrun and sometimes Terravore are both dead. Even Batterskull is rather weak for builds that run it. This gives us 7-8 cards to bring in:

2 Choke
2 Tutor
2 Canonist
1 Thorns
(1 Metamorph/Bojuka Bog/Tormod's Crypt)

Bog can be useful vs Time Spiral and Snapcaster builds of High Tide, but at this point it's pretty much more useful of a card than Batterskull. Sometimes against these matchups I also board out a few Stoneforge Mystics too, since they have a lesser role in the matchup.

KobeBryan

01-22-2012, 11:02 PM

Rukcus...looks like you better keep siding in your COP: red.

Koby

01-22-2012, 11:48 PM

Rukcus...looks like you better keep siding in your COP: red.

I have respect for the Burns. I also really hate letting bad decks win if I can avoid it.

Barbed Blightning

01-23-2012, 12:05 AM

Hey guys, i just started to pick up this deck after some pretty good results with Death & Taxes. However, I've found Maverick to be far stronger and more consistent that D&T, and gotta say that it's probably the most fun I've had in Legacy for a long time.

That said, I'm prepping to take my deck to the Grand Prix. I was wondering if I could get some input on my current decklist:

MD:

Spells & Dudes: 37
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth Tirel

Lands: 23
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Craddle

SB:

1 Bojuka Bog
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Terravore
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Any ideas/suggestions would be excellent. My current conundrum is Batterskull--if it's worth keeping MD, if I should MD Feast and Famine, and if it's worth keeping in the 75 at all.

Thanks!

bakofried

01-23-2012, 12:20 AM

Swap out Tirel for Knight-Errant. EKE is far stronger in Legacy.

Water_Wizard

01-23-2012, 12:39 AM

Hey guys, i just started to pick up this deck after some pretty good results with Death & Taxes. However, I've found Maverick to be far stronger and more consistent that D&T, and gotta say that it's probably the most fun I've had in Legacy for a long time.

That said, I'm prepping to take my deck to the Grand Prix. I was wondering if I could get some input on my current decklist:

1. Remove BOP for a 4th NH.
2. Copy this list as close as possible with considerations for your expected meta: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43198 Terminate = Terravore.
3. Reconsider the Enlightened Tutor sideboard. Presently, you have 2 ET targets in your sideboard (Canonist and WoSaM - you are not going to bring in ET w/ Choke because you don't want to risk a 2:1 (ET for Choke, cast, opponent Counterspells, you've missed a draw)). In your sideboard, I would -2 ET, -1 Terravore, - 1 SoFaF, + 1 Surgical Extraction, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Garruk Relentless (Great against Nic Fit (GB control) and other control decks).
4. I would consider moving Bojuka Bog main - right now, your only form of main deck graveyard hate is Scavenging Ooze. KotR into BB can be very good against Dredge, Reanimator and Snapcaster.
5. As Bakofried mentions, Triel should be EKE.
6. Consider Terravore and Eternal Witness in your main.
7. Consider adding the 4th MoR. It's some good against a lot of decks.

majikal

01-23-2012, 12:52 AM

1. Remove BOP for a 4th NH
BoP carries a sword really well and is a good chump against Reanimator's giant flying things (and in that matchup sometimes one turn makes all the difference). I think that slot just comes down to personal preference.

So, no Maverick made top 16 in DC. Sadface.

Koby

01-23-2012, 01:00 AM

I'm not sure how the post-DKA metagame will look like, but I suspect nothing much will change in terms of Legacy archetypes. If anything, Dredge will be running more removal but that's about it.

Therefore, I suspect the metagame for GP Indianapolis to consist of a larger contingent of Show & Tell decks to counter both Maverick and UW Blade. How could we tailor the deck to be ready against:

1) GW/(r/u) Mavericks
2) UW Stoneblade
3) Show & Tell (non-Hive Mind)

Against the first 2, I can see including 1-2 Elspeth/Garruk Relenteless in the SB to gain an advantage. I like Garruk better right now because he has more useful abilities; but I'm not discounting how Elspeth can put away games fast. The reason for it is to out-muscle the tokens, extra removal, and tutoring power.

Secondly, I think that Choke is a known entity and many players are starting to pre-emptively answer that option for us. This is where we can start to play one step ahead.

Finally, taking a page from Standard, Silhana Ledgewalker is starting to look REALLY attractive against UW blade decks.

Against the Show & Tell decks, we still run fairly well with KotR being able to tutor up Karakas. Sneak Attack is a bit trickier both for being able to haste out Emrakul as well as have option in Bloodmoon. I think Pithing Needle might be a decent catchall against the wide open metagame.

Discuss.

majikal

01-23-2012, 01:05 AM

Silhana Ledgewalker looks pretty good. It may be worthwhile to cut a Scryb Ranger for one of those.

What is the plan against Loam decks? It seems they are starting to hybridize with Pox and Eva Green, and from the looks of the last top 16, quite a few players are going in that direction. That just seems like a terrible matchup all around.

edit: Actually, it looks like Stoneblade also got hated out entirely in DC. I wonder if this is because it wasn't heavily represented or if these hate decks completely pushed them out of contention.

Koby

01-23-2012, 01:15 AM

No doubt about it - Peed and Pox are really difficult to fight. I'd put that matchup near 20/80, with the 20 percent chance of winning when they mulligan to 5 and start off with no black mana...

Then again, more reason to shift to Planeswalkers - they aren't affected by Deed. I've been trying something recently in SB games against Deed/Wrath decks: -2 mana dorks. It's lousy to have to commit to the battlefield more creatures than necessary to actually win. Removing them and playing a slow game is looking like a good strategy against them.

Against GB Nice-Fit/Eva Loam that's not always a tenable options due to the discard. Boarding into Loam helps in that regard.

A good "off the wall" answer to Reanimator, Loam, Snapcaster is Ground Seal. This card doesn't seem to affect us nearly at all, and it's a halfway decent E-tutor target. Unfortunately, its a stop-gap rather than a permanent solution. All three of those decks can answer it quite easily.

EDIT: Clarification - Nimble Mongoose might be good too (in place of Silhana Ledgewalker), but actual Shroud and being a 3/3 means it will never beat a Batterskull. Even if you're lucky to get Exalted triggers. Basically, evasion + shroud is really good.

sdematt

01-23-2012, 02:25 AM

I like that people are jumping on the Deed wagon. I'm a huge Deed player myself, so I'd honestly just suggest running Needle for Deed.

Loam grinds out games harder than Stoneblade can, so that's probably why it got hated out a bit. Plus, Worm Harvest is a real bitch, if you can cast it.

Assuming you guys are still running Oozes, you should be ok. Yes, I know these decks run infinite removal, but juicing their Loams with Surgicals (when you can) or Oozes helps a ton.

-Matt

Water_Wizard

01-23-2012, 03:34 AM

1) GW/(r/u) Mavericks
2) UW Stoneblade
3) Show & Tell (non-Hive Mind)

Against the first 2, I can see including 1-2 Elspeth/Garruk Relenteless in the SB to gain an advantage. I like Garruk better right now because he has more useful abilities; but I'm not discounting how Elspeth can put away games fast. The reason for it is to out-muscle the tokens, extra removal, and tutoring power.

Secondly, I think that Choke is a known entity and many players are starting to pre-emptively answer that option for us. This is where we can start to play one step ahead.

Finally, taking a page from Standard, Silhana Ledgewalker is starting to look REALLY attractive against UW blade decks.

Against the Show & Tell decks, we still run fairly well with KotR being able to tutor up Karakas. Sneak Attack is a bit trickier both for being able to haste out Emrakul as well as have option in Bloodmoon. I think Pithing Needle might be a decent catchall against the wide open metagame.
I playtested GWu Maverick and I don't think it is that great of a deck. As discussed a few pages ago, if you include FOW, you need at least 14 additional blue cards and it takes away a lot of Mavericks bite. If you include Brainstorm, Geist, Clique and Jace with Spell Pierce in the board, I think this is the best build, but I still prefer red for Punishing Fire and Pyroblast.
Regarding how to beat punishing mav with a traditional mav list, it comes down to traditional mav utilizing Thrun, Terravore, Batterskull and Eternal Witness (the cards punishing mav either doesn't run or doesn't have main deck) versus punishing mav getting recurring Punishing Fire on board. I think Punishing Mav has a slight edge, but I think this match is at most 55/45.
Against Stoneblade, I think the red splash is the best bet. Punishing Mav kills SCM, SFM and Clique. Blasts stop SCM, GST and JMS. SoLaS is also solid. Jacob, I thought you said this match was "very favorable" at SCGLA. What changed?
What is the pre-emptive answer to Choke? Most UW decks don't run any enchantment hate, or they run a lone Disenchant or Krosan Grip which is reliable upon a lone Tropical Island (the finding of which Aven Mindcensor greatly reduces the odds of and which can be Wasted after 1 use).
Why Ledgewalker over Thrun? I understand Ledgewalker is quicker and can't be blocked except by creatures with flying, but I prefer a 4/4 body and the fact Thrun can be bounced with Karakas has saved me a game.
Against Sneak & Show, I like Ensnaring Bridge better than Pithing Needle. For a period, I ran both Bridge and Needle in my sb, but it was hard to find room to bring in both and Bridge seemed like it was more of a catch-all versus Reanimator and Sneak & Show. Bridge is permanent, versus Metamorph which is once and doesn't do anything against Sneak Attack. Our guys can get under bridge with the help of exhalted triggers and holding a few cards in hand, our guys can avoid blockers with MoR or protection from Equipment, and Bridge can buy us enough time to find a Karakas to bounce Emrakul or a Pridgemage for SA.

Koby

01-23-2012, 11:39 AM

I playtested GWu Maverick and I don't think it is that great of a deck. As discussed a few pages ago, if you include FOW, you need at least 14 additional blue cards and it takes away a lot of Mavericks bite. If you include Brainstorm, Geist, Clique and Jace with Spell Pierce in the board, I think this is the best build, but I still prefer red for Punishing Fire and Pyroblast.

I agree regarding the blue builds. Something similar to Rynkiewicz' No-FoW build from GP Providence is what I'm referring to.

Regarding how to beat punishing mav with a traditional mav list, it comes down to traditional mav utilizing Thrun, Terravore, Batterskull and Eternal Witness (the cards punishing mav either doesn't run or doesn't have main deck) versus punishing mav getting recurring Punishing Fire on board. I think Punishing Mav has a slight edge, but I think this match is at most 55/45.

Punishing Fire is good at killing the small dudes; however the match still comes down to Mother of Runes and fatties. Whoever gets more StP for Knights also stays on top.

What is the pre-emptive answer to Choke? Most UW decks don't run any enchantment hate, or they run a lone Disenchant or Krosan Grip which is reliable upon a lone Tropical Island (the finding of which Aven Mindcensor greatly reduces the odds of and which can be Wasted after 1 use).

I still think the UW blade matchup is favorable; it's just that in the American metagame Maverick is now a known entity and people know what to expect. This means boarding into Disenchant vs Choke, and not playing into Choke by tapping out early. Furthermore, SB games get pretty difficult due to the extreme amount of 1cc removal. Landing a sizeable threat is sometimes difficult.

Why Ledgewalker over Thrun? I understand Ledgewalker is quicker and can't be blocked except by creatures with flying, but I prefer a 4/4 body and the fact Thrun can be bounced with Karakas has saved me a game.

I'm thinking in addition to. Thrun is awesome, but he's more often an Abyss. He has trouble connecting to deal damage. Geist of St Traft would be the best addition, but our mana can't support it easily, nor is it tutorable.

Against Sneak & Show, I like Ensnaring Bridge better than Pithing Needle. For a period, I ran both Bridge and Needle in my sb, but it was hard to find room to bring in both and Bridge seemed like it was more of a catch-all versus Reanimator and Sneak & Show. Bridge is permanent, versus Metamorph which is once and doesn't do anything against Sneak Attack. Our guys can get under bridge with the help of exhalted triggers and holding a few cards in hand, our guys can avoid blockers with MoR or protection from Equipment, and Bridge can buy us enough time to find a Karakas to bounce Emrakul or a Pridgemage for SA.

Seems reasonable, but a bit risky. I can see the benefits of running it against NO decks as well.

Against Stoneblade, I think the red splash is the best bet. Punishing Mav kills SCM, SFM and Clique. Blasts stop SCM, GST and JMS. SoLaS is also solid. Jacob, I thought you said this match was "very favorable" at SCGLA. What changed?

It just dawned on me regarding the Top 4 matchup from SCG:LA... my opponent kept in his SFM/Equipment package in. Most UW stoneblades I've played against take it out to board into Elspeth + infinite removal. I ended up losing to the Game 1 plan in Game 2, likely because my opponent accidently left in the right package. To be completely honest, I turned my brain off after Top 4 split tho, so I may have been just coasting during this match.

EDIT: I'm also considering the addition of Kavu Predator for the GW/r Maverick list. He acts the same as Terravore, and can easily race Batterskull (because he will always grow when they attack/block). Something else to consider when building your decks.