[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Koby]

Being Indestructible isn't a benefit in Legacy. Most of the removal that's relevant is the Exiling type; and that deals with Predator Ooze just fine.

[menace13]

Being Indestructible isn't a benefit in Legacy. Most of the removal that's relevant is the Exiling type; and that deals with Predator Ooze just fine.
It has slight benefits. It can't be blocked to trade, is a perma wall and can't be Bolted. Most decks only have up to 4 exiling spells main. I don't think it is amazing, but it has niche roles. Better than exisiting creatures like KotR and Mystic though?

[Barbed Blightning]

I think it, P. Ooze, has some applications depending on your meta. However, Swords is still supreme.

Also, could someone please explain to me how Garruk Relentless is good against Nic Fit--other than getting around Deed?

[Koby]

It has built in removal. It can generate tokens and it can tutor. Elspeth can only make dudes and sometimes Jump when you still manage to keep a guy around. Last time I played against the BG deed deck I managed to deal 6 damage all match. That includes his fetches...

So really the only two choices are Elspeth Knight Errant or Garruk 1.0 or 3.0. The Garruk 3 has the most use including the Nice Fit matchup. Elspeth has the most use otherwise.

[Water_Wizard]

Also, could someone please explain to me how Garruk Relentless is good against Nic Fit--other than getting around Deed?

The idea is that you keep pumping out token creatures after their mass removal (Deed, Damnation, Perish, etc.). Against Nic Fit, it becomes a game of attrition, eventually (barring a blow-out), you are both drawing off the top of your deck. A Garruk (unflipped) is like drawing a Grizzly Bear every turn along with the above-mentioned benefits. The idea is you create more threats than they have answers and win the war of attrition! (and hope they don't hit you with discard or Maelstrom Pulse ;) )

[Fatal]

From my tests the most issue with Nic Fit is:
-Pernicous Deed + even more removal - some version runs Shriekmaws also..
-tempo plan is useless since resolved Explorer with Therapy = implosive mana

So basically we can attack from two angles - Manabase - cards like Catacylsm - very good since it blow up also plainswalkers and protection from mass removal - thinking about Revoker/Needle vs Deed.

Also not so bad are all flesh creatures, since 95% of their removal is sorcery speed so Aven Mindcensor can be very good here.

[lyracian]

Also not so bad are all flesh creatures, since 95% of their removal is sorcery speed so Aven Mindcensor can be very good here.Fun typo there, all these creatures made of flesh! :cool:

I do love Cataclysm and have used it often in WW. It would certainly help make Knight bigger for the final push.

[randomly.anonymous]

I've been trying out Chord of Calling as a 1-of in the deck and it worked out well. Having 2 creatures in play is all you need for it to be on par mana-wise with green sun. The GGG requirement is kinda hard, but being able to cast it EOT and being able to get any creature (SFM, MoR) is a huge plus.

It's a lot easier to cast in builds running Cradle and no Bog/Maze MD, but really the only times I haven't been able to cast it is due to not having enough mana without convoke.

[Derayler]

I played this deck in DC (with punishing fire) and lost my win and in round against re-animator on camera. I feel like his hands were pretty nuts, but it's whatever. I'm pretty sure that the best plan with this deck against pernicious deed it to try and aggressively wasteland them and hope you can kill them fast. Other than that I think you just lose. I feel like the cards you choose should be because they are good against other match ups and just ignore the deed decks.

Pridemage can be useful if you can get them off guard but that doesn't happen much.

[Water_Wizard]

I played this deck in DC (with punishing fire) and lost my win and in round against re-animator on camera. I feel like his hands were pretty nuts, but it's whatever. I'm pretty sure that the best plan with this deck against pernicious deed it to try and aggressively wasteland them and hope you can kill them fast. Other than that I think you just lose. I feel like the cards you choose should be because they are good against other match ups and just ignore the deed decks.

Pridemage can be useful if you can get them off guard but that doesn't happen much.

Yeah, but Nic Fit runs 6+ basics. Against Team America, the mana denial might work. Out of curiosity, how did Reanimator beat you? (What creatures did he bring into play and how?)

[Derayler]

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-rnd9-daryl-ayers-vs-antonio-fedon-5909220

[Lt. Quattro]

I played this deck in DC (with punishing fire) and lost my win and in round against re-animator on camera. I feel like his hands were pretty nuts, but it's whatever. I'm pretty sure that the best plan with this deck against pernicious deed it to try and aggressively wasteland them and hope you can kill them fast. Other than that I think you just lose. I feel like the cards you choose should be because they are good against other match ups and just ignore the deed decks.

Pridemage can be useful if you can get them off guard but that doesn't happen much.


http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-rnd9-daryl-ayers-vs-antonio-fedon-5909220

I'm not the best player in the world, but why didn't you search for a knight of the reliquary instead of progenitus? The knight could search for karakas, bojuka bog or a maze of ith.

[Barbed Blightning]

I was thinking about it today at work, and I came up with a sideboard that, I think, is pretty solid for Mav (at least classic GW).

1x Bojuka Bog
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Pithing Needle
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Terravore

The needles hit more than just deeds and walkers, but also equips, stoneforges (a reasonable tradeoff) fetchs, and practically anything else under the sun. the Traps are for the combo/storm matchup, but can also be used against RUG/UB Delver (snap and his target already count twice for the trap's cost). I realize this isn't very realistic, but still something to think about.

Chokes, the Bog and Extractions are pretty obvious. I run Maze of Ith instead of bog in my main because my 2 scavenging oozes do a lot of gravehate on their own, esp. when ramped by my Gaea's Cradle.

Terravore is a mirrormatch card, but also dope against a lot of decks in legacy right now--given the extensive use of fetches and wastelands. a 5/5 trampler for 3 is still pretty damn good in my book, but he can easily grow to 10/10 or higher.

I'm fairly convinced with garruk after hearing earlier comments. The only other walker i can think of would be Primal Hunter, but GGG is a pain to summon up in some matchups, and CMC 5 is too expensive to hit early.


Definitely would like to hear what you guys think of this SB. Thanks!

[Water_Wizard]

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-rnd9-daryl-ayers-vs-antonio-fedon-5909220

What's your deck list? Thanks for the link, I realized it existed once you said you were the feature match, so that's why I asked for your recount and didn't just view the link myself. But anyway, I watched it. It was not fun spending 18 minutes watching that video and it's been a long day, but I did it anyway. Let me answer my question for you:
Game 1. My opponent wins the roll and choses to play. I know he's on reanimator because I sat next to him in previous rounds/someone told me. He plays Polluted Delta and Fetches a Swamp. I play Punishing Grove into Noble Hierarch. EOMT, he Entombs for Jin. He plays Scalding Tarn and fetches UGS. He plays Animate Dead on Jin. At EOHT, Jin triggers and he discards some stuff. On my turn, I drop a land and try to GSZ for 2. When my opponent FOW's, I concede.
I sideboard like this...
Game 2. My opening hand has 5 land and 2 Natural Order. 1 of those land is Karakas. I choose to send it back. I mull to 6. My opponent mulls to 6. I send that back for a mull to 5. My opponent holds his 6. My 5 contains XYZ. I lead with a turn 1 Noble Hierarch. My opponent plays a Polluted Delta into an island. Turn 2, I drop a land and attack with Hierarch. My opponent Brainstorms at EOMT. Turn 2, my opponent drops a swamp and casts a 2nd brainstorm. Turn 3, I drop a Bojuka Bog, removing a fetch and 2 brainstorms and attack with Hierarch. Turn 3 my opponent drops Scalding Tarn into UGS and casts S&T. I Pyroblast. Turn 4, I drop a land and cast Natural Order, saccing Hierarch. My opponent Dazes, and I tap my 4th land to pay for it. Why my opponent left Daze in on the draw, I do not know. Why my opponent cast it when I had mana open, I also do not know. Perhaps to tap me out so I couldn't STP next turn or to tie up my green mana in case I bring Scavenging Ooze into play. I recognize this and realize my opponent is probably going to use his graveyard to reanimate a creature next turn, why else would he tap me out?. I drop Progenitus into play. On Turn 4, my opponent replays his Island and casts Careful Study, discarding Elesh Norn and Empyrical Archangel. My opponent Entombs Blazing Archon and Reanimates, dropping him to 7. If I can only draw an STP and get it through, I win. Turn 5, I Waste my opponents UGS. Turn 5, my opponent attacks, dropping me to 15. Turn 6, I play a Misty Rainforest and pass. Turn 6, my opponent swings, dropping me to 10. I really need that STP! Turn 7 I draw STP. I cast it, but my opponent FOW's pitching Careful Study. Turn 8, I draw a Natural Order. I cast it, saccing Progenitus and attempting to go for KotR, so I can pull out Maze of Ith, but my opponent has another FOW, pitching Spell Pierce - Why did he pitch Spell Pierce when he could have just cast it, idk. I scoop.

From the commentary, I learned you play a transformational Natural Order sideboard. Comments about that?

You are correct, your opponent drew quite well. 2nd game was certainly a heartbreaker. In retrospect, any regrets about not keeping your original 7 in game 2? I prefer you provide your own account of the match, as a) I don't know what you were thinking, b) I don't know what you had in your hand (minus certain cards which were shown), c) I don't know what you sided in, d) I don't have to watch an annoying 20 minute video, and e) I don't have to listen to those commentators, even though they are sometimes funny and insightful, although mostly chattering just to fill up space and are only partially competent regarding the Legacy metagame. Sometimes they are right on, but other times, I find myself asking what they are thinking. I guess all the truly skilled players are playing in the tournament. I am thankful they record and provide the videos, despite everything I've said above.

[Water_Wizard]

I'm not the best player in the world, but why didn't you search for a knight of the reliquary instead of progenitus? The knight could search for karakas, bojuka bog or a maze of ith.

He'd already played Bojuka Bog at that point, but regarding the ability to search for Karakas or Maze, good point.

Maybe he was tired from a long day of playing, maybe he was nervous to be on camera. Maybe he was just so surprised that his mull to 5 had a chance to win that he just decided to go for his quickest route. Maybe he was worried about Pithing Needle. We'll just have to wait for a response...

[Water_Wizard]

I was thinking about it today at work, and I came up with a sideboard that, I think, is pretty solid for Mav (at least classic GW).

1x Bojuka Bog
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Pithing Needle
2x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Terravore

The needles hit more than just deeds and walkers, but also equips, stoneforges (a reasonable tradeoff) fetchs, and practically anything else under the sun. the Traps are for the combo/storm matchup, but can also be used against RUG/UB Delver (snap and his target already count twice for the trap's cost). I realize this isn't very realistic, but still something to think about.

Chokes, the Bog and Extractions are pretty obvious. I run Maze of Ith instead of bog in my main because my 2 scavenging oozes do a lot of gravehate on their own, esp. when ramped by my Gaea's Cradle.

Terravore is a mirrormatch card, but also dope against a lot of decks in legacy right now--given the extensive use of fetches and wastelands. a 5/5 trampler for 3 is still pretty damn good in my book, but he can easily grow to 10/10 or higher.

I'm fairly convinced with garruk after hearing earlier comments. The only other walker i can think of would be Primal Hunter, but GGG is a pain to summon up in some matchups, and CMC 5 is too expensive to hit early.


Definitely would like to hear what you guys think of this SB. Thanks!

What's your sideboard plan against certain decks? Is your main the same as you posted a page back? What's most important is your sideboard plan against certain match-ups. It's hard providing feedback just by looking at a decklist and sideboard and not know what you're planning to take in and out. It also depends on the decks you think you are going to face. Large tournament, local shop, online?

[iScare]

I don't think he was expecting the Blazing Archon, but KoTR would have been game as Maze or Karakas would have slow down Reanimator.

[zulander]

In a meta game with bant/ichirid/goblins would you play gw or gwr? How would you board?

[Derayler]

I conceded game 1 after he countered my spell because I can't win after I discard my hand. Game 2 I mulliganed the 7 because I had 4 lands, 2 Natural Order, and a Progenitus. While Karakas is sweet; I have to slow roll it so when he entombs he just doesnt grab archangel or Sphinx. And if I do than he might just grab a Jin and after he draws 7 I lose anyways. I would rather mulligan and hope than only count on a Karakas. When I played the second Natural Order in game 2 it was just a joke because I was dead on board.

My list at the moment is...

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
5 NO Package

Against him I brought out Tower, Goyf, the mystic package, loam, the punishing fire, and Teeg I believe. Brought in everything but Stony silence and canonist.

[Lt. Quattro]

I conceded game 1 after he countered my spell because I can't win after I discard my hand. Game 2 I mulliganed the 7 because I had 4 lands, 2 Natural Order, and a Progenitus. While Karakas is sweet; I have to slow roll it so when he entombs he just doesnt grab archangel or Sphinx. And if I do than he might just grab a Jin and after he draws 7 I lose anyways. I would rather mulligan and hope than only count on a Karakas. When I played the second Natural Order in game 2 it was just a joke because I was dead on board.

My list at the moment is...

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tower of the Magistrate
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
5 NO Package

Against him I brought out Tower, Goyf, the mystic package, loam, the punishing fire, and Teeg I believe. Brought in everything but Stony silence and canonist.

You still didn't explain why you got progenitus instead of knight of the reliquary with the first natural order in game 2. Also, why side out your burn spells when they are on of the few outs to blazing archon? Did you opponent just get "teh nuts" or would tighter play on your part have changed what happened?

[Barbed Blightning]

What's your sideboard plan against certain decks? Is your main the same as you posted a page back? What's most important is your sideboard plan against certain match-ups. It's hard providing feedback just by looking at a decklist and sideboard and not know what you're planning to take in and out. It also depends on the decks you think you are going to face. Large tournament, local shop, online?

I was looking to take this to the GP in March. and yes it's the same MD list on the last page.


Against storm/combo my plan would be:

- 1 thrun
- 1 Elspeth, knight errant
- 2 scryb ranger
- 1 maze of ith
- 1 sword of fire and ice
- 4 swords to plowshares


+ 4 Mindbreak traps
+ 2 surgical
+ 4 pithing needle


Against nic fit, or similar BG deck:

-2 qasali
-1 gaea's cradle
-2 noble
-2 scryb ranger

+2 surgical
+1 Garruk relentless
+4 Pithing needle


against UR delver:

-1 Karakas
-2 qasali
-1 scavenging
-1 gaddock teeg

+2 surgical
+1 bojuka bog
+2 choke

Essentially all I want is some input on how to prep for a Grand Prix meta; it's going to be my first one, and until now I've only played at small local shops.

[Derayler]

Oops. I got Progenitus because unless he has the nuts than he just dies. Plus if I get Knight I still lose if he gets angel of despair on the next turn, or if gets inkwell I could still die. And punishing fire doesn't do anything. I would have to have 3 to even think about killing anything except Jin, but if I try that than he p[rob already drew 7 and I lose anyways.

[sdematt]

Plus, if you need to, you can GSZ for Progenitus.

-Matt

[Derayler]

I hard cast Progenitus against a Lands opponent once. He had Urborg and I had 2 hierarchs lol.

[KobeBryan]

Plus, if you need to, you can GSZ for Progenitus.

-Matt

:tongue: you need 11 mana sources to gsz prog. i'm not even sure the deck runs 11 actual mana sources. :tongue:

[dsck]

:tongue: you need 11 mana sources to gsz prog. i'm not even sure the deck runs 11 actual mana sources. :tongue:

Cradle makes 4-5 mana on average alone.

[Water_Wizard]

While Karakas is sweet; I have to slow roll it so when he entombs he just doesnt grab archangel or Sphinx. And if I do than he might just grab a Jin and after he draws 7 I lose anyways. I would rather mulligan and hope than only count on a Karakas. When I played the second Natural Order in game 2 it was just a joke because I was dead on board.

My list at the moment is...

Maindeck:

1 Tarmogoyf

4 Punishing Fire

1 Tower of the Magistrate

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Stony Silence
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
5 NO Package

Against him I brought out Tower, Goyf, the mystic package, loam, the punishing fire, and Teeg I believe. Brought in everything but Stony silence and canonist.

Thanks for your response! I run a very similar decklist (+/- 5 in the main and a similar board, when I go with ET (recently I've been running a dedicated board with Surgical Extractions)). A few questions...

Tarmogoyf - How do you like him? I imagine mainly for aggro decks or RUG Tempo. 'Goyf always either just makes my deck or just gets cut, he's either card 59, 60 or out.

4th Punishing Fire - Ever wish it was only 3?

Tower of the Magistrate - I would say this is a very good call, especially if you were expecting a UW Stoneblade / Maverick meta (Tower is also good against Affinity, especially if they don't have a lot of black mana Cranial Plating).

I don't blame you on mulliganing that 1st hand - I didn't know Progen was your 7th card (announcer said 5 land + 2 NO, so I was thinking, fetch a Dryad and NO), but if Progen is in hand, you have to mull it.

Why did you decide to run the NO package? I take it it came in against any non-blue, non-Liliana deck? Do you have any stories to tell how it saved you/caught opponents completely by surprise?

[sdematt]

11 mana isn't that hard. Cradle, 4 Hierachs, and many lands. Right there you've got 8 mana.

I really think that's the super tech right there. Or, just run Painter's servants so you can fetch Mother of Runes out of your deck. Holy sweet tech, Batman!

-Matt

[Derayler]

I'm tweaking the list for Richmond. I know I am going to go down to 3 punishing fire, it's really only good against UW because in the mirror NO just crushes them. Goyf was a sweet inclusion. He was strong against stifle decks, I had considered having that spot be a Kavu Predator but that's only good if you have 2 groves or a plow in hand.

Tower didn't get activated once all day. I played the mirror once, but it was only really for UW blade. I think a Thrun might be good, but it would really only be for UW and similar decks, because I don't think punishing fire alone can defeat a UW deck.

The NO package was mainly a joke between my friend and I. We were just looking at the stock maverick list I had built ready for Sunday trying to figure out a way to break the mirror. We were looking through my legacy box and laughed about the thought, but tried to fit it in the main deck for me to play in the legacy challenge. Main deck it was aweful, but we decided to put it in the board for Sunday. I brought it in against all the combo decks because if necessary you can grab teeg. I played against the mirror once and just went land, mana dork, land, land NO. DEAD. Looking back I would bring it in against the RUG decks too because they board out their forces. I wouldn't bring it in against UW decks because they have wrath and the Liliana decks have way too many sac effects.

While the NO package was cool, IDK if it's even worth it. It's only actually good in the mirror and a couple times through the day I even drew the Progenitus. Probably cut it for something more consistent. It was also good against RUG, but so is your whole deck.

[Water_Wizard]

I'm tweaking the list for Richmond. I know I am going to go down to 3 punishing fire, it's really only good against UW because in the mirror NO just crushes them. Goyf was a sweet inclusion. He was strong against stifle decks, I had considered having that spot be a Kavu Predator but that's only good if you have 2 groves or a plow in hand.

Tower didn't get activated once all day. I played the mirror once, but it was only really for UW blade. I think a Thrun might be good, but it would really only be for UW and similar decks, because I don't think punishing fire alone can defeat a UW deck.


Thanks for the info regarding the NO Package. I recommend Sylvan Library for the Tower spot. It's more versatile than Thurn, crushes UW and Junk (if anyone still plays Junk) and can be boarded out against the quicker decks (even though it's not that bad a a Mirri's Guile since we have so many shuffle effects with fetches, KotR and GSZ).

I totally agree with you concerning 'Goyf and I think due to this conversation, I am going to add one back into my main. He is the only GSZ=2 target that can survive a Lightning Bolt (don't know why I just tagged that, I guess I'm in a tagging mood tonight) and he's good at slowing down Burn and facing opposing RUG's opposing 'Goyfs.

[iScare]

I am curious about maze of ith's trick. Can someone let me know if this works?
Say my opponent has 2 creatures out and an unequipped cranial plating. He has two black mana untapped. He declared to attack with 2 creatures. He then asked me, "which one are you gonna maze?" can I wait (or response) until he equips the cranial plating (since using 2 black mana, he can equip as an ability) on one of his creatures before I use maze?

[Water_Wizard]

I was looking to take this to the GP in March. and yes it's the same MD list on the last page.


Against storm/combo my plan would be:

- 1 thrun
- 1 Elspeth, knight errant
- 2 scryb ranger
- 1 maze of ith
- 1 sword of fire and ice
- 4 swords to plowshares


+ 4 Mindbreak traps
+ 2 surgical
+ 4 pithing needle


Against nic fit, or similar BG deck:

-2 qasali
-1 gaea's cradle
-2 noble
-2 scryb ranger

+2 surgical
+1 Garruk relentless
+4 Pithing needle


against UR delver:

-1 Karakas
-2 qasali
-1 scavenging
-1 gaddock teeg

+2 surgical
+1 bojuka bog
+2 choke

Essentially all I want is some input on how to prep for a Grand Prix meta; it's going to be my first one, and until now I've only played at small local shops.

With the release of Dark Ascension right around the corner, I think it's a little too early to prepare for Grand Prix, as we may see a meta shift and probably won't know what to expect even up until the night before the tournament.

I'm not sure if I'm sold on the 4x Pithing Needle sideboard. I think Enlightened Tutor with 1/2 Needles might give your sideboard some more reach.

Against Storm, I would like to Ethersworn Canonist make your list. What are you planning to cast Needle against? LED and Lotus Petal are both mana abilities, so they can't be needled (correct me if I'm wrong here). Additionally, Scryb can be good here to increase your mana and untap MoR. Swords may be necessary if they run Dark Confidant.

Nic Fit looks solid although I'm considering cutting my equipment/sfm package against them. I've only played this match a few times, but my thought is this: if you have no creatures on board, equipment are useless.

UR Delver - the Teeg may be relevant if they bring in Submerge or leave in FOW (they should remove FOW). I would also leave in Ooze, because the life gain can be relevant and it's good against SCM. You could take out Elspeth and maybe Sylvan Library (thoughts on taking this out against decks quicker than Maverick) to make room for Ooze and Teeg.

[damionblackgear]

I am curious about maze of ith's trick. Can someone let me know if this works?
Say my opponent has 2 creatures out and an unequipped cranial plating. He has two black mana untapped. He declared to attack with 2 creatures. He then asked me, "which one are you gonna maze?" can I wait (or response) until he equips the cranial plating (since using 2 black mana, he can equip as an ability) on one of his creatures before I use maze?

once your opponent asked you that, they've given you priority. You can opt not to Maze anything and they can't equip before that step is changed. Assuming you've already assigned blockers, they won't get another chance to smack you with the equipment.

If you do maze one, they can equip to the other and you're boned.

Moral, Wait until they equip to Maze. Otherwise, you'll take the equipment as well.

[Water_Wizard]

I am curious about maze of ith's trick. Can someone let me know if this works?
Say my opponent has 2 creatures out and an unequipped cranial plating. He has two black mana untapped. He declared to attack with 2 creatures. He then asked me, "which one are you gonna maze?" can I wait (or response) until he equips the cranial plating (since using 2 black mana, he can equip as an ability) on one of his creatures before I use maze?

So, the trick would be to not use the Maze at all.

Declare Attackers step. He declares two attackers and passes priority, you pass.
Declare Defenders step. He passes priority, you pass.
Combat damage.

If he attaches Cranial Plating earlier in combat (say during declare attackers or declare blockers), you Maze that creature in response. He's actually getting more damage through through not attaching Cranial Plating (assuming his creatures aren't 0 power). Because if he doesn't attach and you use the Maze on one of his creatures, he can attach the Cranial to the other creature in response.

Usually, the "Maze of Ith trick" is to attack with KotR and at combat damage phase, untap your Knight. The damage still goes through and you can use your Knight's fetch ability (the maze gives pseudo-vigilance).

[Esper3k]

So, the trick would be to not use the Maze at all.

Declare Attackers step. He declares two attackers and passes priority, you pass.
Declare Defenders step. He passes priority, you pass.


Actually at this point, if he passes priority at the Declare Blockers step and you pass it back, it's too late for him to equip the Cranial Platings then. First thing that happens in the Combat Damage step is combat damage happens, then the active player gets priority.

[iScare]

Damn, I got tricked then. I should have called for a judge at that point. He had out two etched champions and I had maze. I couldn't block any of them since they had pro:all colors. The only thing I could do was maze. He asked me who I was gonna maze and the moment I picked one etched champ, he slapped on cranial plating the other.

So I can technically wait once he declared attack? If he passes priority to me
And I don't maze, he can't equip cranial plating anymore then right? Hahaha another misplay at SCGLA.

[sdematt]

What do you mean, if anyone still plays Junk? It just won a 150 man event in Spain, and placed very well (Top 4, Top 8) in multiple 50+ man events.

-Matt

[Water_Wizard]

So I can technically wait once he declared attack? If he passes priority to me
And I don't maze, he can't equip cranial plating anymore then right? Hahaha another misplay at SCGLA.

Yes and yes. Since it's his turn, he has to act first. The only time he will act after you, is if you put something on the stack (cast a spell or activate a triggered ability). In this case, he Jedi-Mind-Tricked you (or just out-right lied or was ignorant of the rules himself) and forced you to act first.

My question is, did he have a colorless mana open? If he did, he should have equiped one of the Champions during his main 1 and when you mazed it, switched the equipment to the other.

[iScare]

Yes and yes. Since it's his turn, he has to act first. The only time he will act after you, is if you put something on the stack (cast a spell or activate a triggered ability). In this case, he Jedi-Mind-Tricked you (or just out-right lied or was ignorant of the rules himself) and forced you to act first.

My question is, did he have a colorless mana open? If he did, he should have equiped one of the Champions during his main 1 and when you mazed it, switched the equipment to the other.

In the beginning the cranial plating wasn't attached and he was saving his 2 black mana. So he then asked me which one are you gonna maze? So the 1st time he attacked, i could have save that damage from the plating. But the 2nd time around, since the plate was already equipped, i guess i can't do anything about it.

[KobeBryan]

In the beginning the cranial plating wasn't attached and he was saving his 2 black mana. So he then asked me which one are you gonna maze? So the 1st time he attacked, i could have save that damage from the plating. But the 2nd time around, since the plate was already equipped, i guess i can't do anything about it.

Another epic misplay by iscare...typical.

[glurman]

So, I came in 22nd at StarCityGames DC. My losses were to the mirror (mulligans to 5 both games, never saw a single piece of removal) and I can't remember the other. My draw was in round 1 against Junk.

I realized that with so much Maverick in the meta, the grove version is actually much better. You need the removal package to deal with it. When this was more of a fringe deck, I think G/W was definitely superior. Here's my new list:

Deck
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Choke
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Purify the Grave
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tower of the Magistrate

[Barbed Blightning]

With the release of Dark Ascension right around the corner, I think it's a little too early to prepare for Grand Prix, as we may see a meta shift and probably won't know what to expect even up until the night before the tournament.

I'm not sure if I'm sold on the 4x Pithing Needle sideboard. I think Enlightened Tutor with 1/2 Needles might give your sideboard some more reach.

Against Storm, I would like to Ethersworn Canonist make your list. What are you planning to cast Needle against? LED and Lotus Petal are both mana abilities, so they can't be needled (correct me if I'm wrong here). Additionally, Scryb can be good here to increase your mana and untap MoR. Swords may be necessary if they run Dark Confidant.

Nic Fit looks solid although I'm considering cutting my equipment/sfm package against them. I've only played this match a few times, but my thought is this: if you have no creatures on board, equipment are useless.

UR Delver - the Teeg may be relevant if they bring in Submerge or leave in FOW (they should remove FOW). I would also leave in Ooze, because the life gain can be relevant and it's good against SCM. You could take out Elspeth and maybe Sylvan Library (thoughts on taking this out against decks quicker than Maverick) to make room for Ooze and Teeg.

I was confusing the needle with Phyrexian Revoker (I also play Mono-W Death and Taxes). So, yeah, useless there. :P

2 E Tutors are good; I've just heard the argument that they can lead to two-for-one deals--that is, using the tutor to replace a draw and have your choke/whatever countered. However, DnT runs 4 SB, and they've always been good imo.

My only issue with Canonist is that it dies easily to Pyroclasm/wipeaway, the latter unprotectable by mom. Then again, now that I've realized that needles aren't good for storm, she'll probably make it back in.

Basically, like anyone else, I'm just looking for a SB to help with my bad matchups. But with the Cage, Thalia and Faithless Looting coming into legacy soon, things will probably change significantly.

[KobeBryan]

I was confusing the needle with Phyrexian Revoker (I also play Mono-W Death and Taxes). So, yeah, useless there. :P

2 E Tutors are good; I've just heard the argument that they can lead to two-for-one deals--that is, using the tutor to replace a draw and have your choke/whatever countered. However, DnT runs 4 SB, and they've always been good imo.

My only issue with Canonist is that it dies easily to Pyroclasm/wipeaway, the latter unprotectable by mom. Then again, now that I've realized that needles aren't good for storm, she'll probably make it back in.

Basically, like anyone else, I'm just looking for a SB to help with my bad matchups. But with the Cage, Thalia and Faithless Looting coming into legacy soon, things will probably change significantly.

For storm, you can use canonist and maybe a null rod to vary your hate.

[MiniLuv]

For storm, you can use canonist and maybe a null rod to vary your hate.

Canonist + Null Rod are both answered by artifact hate (i.e. Shattering Spree). Use Stony Silence.

[Water_Wizard]

2 E Tutors are good; I've just heard the argument that they can lead to two-for-one deals--that is, using the tutor to replace a draw and have your choke/whatever countered. However, DnT runs 4 SB, and they've always been good imo.

My only issue with Canonist is that it dies easily to Pyroclasm/wipeaway, the latter unprotectable by mom. Then again, now that I've realized that needles aren't good for storm, she'll probably make it back in.

You don't bring in ETutors against non-combo decks that run counterspells. For example, against UW and RUG Tempo, you just side the Chokes, no ETutor to prevent the 2:1.

The only workaround for Wipe Away is to give your creature prop:blue during your 2nd main. That way, the player is forced to bounce at a time you can replay. If they bounce during their turn, at least you've made them use 3 mana. MoR is the key to protecting Canonist/Teeg from bounce/burn.

[timmycolossus]

Dear maverick players,

I am looking for a 1 or 2 cards to put in my board against pox (loam or mono black), nic fit, and decks that run perish or pernicious deed. I already run 1 elspeth in the main. Thank you for your help.

[Derayler]

Slow roll your mana creatures. So you can play a big creature like a Knight next turn. Most of their removal is sac effects so as long as you have sac fodder you should be fine. Also, punishing fire is good against Liliana. Life from the loam is good against them, especially if you can get back a dryad arbor to sac to small pox and the like multiple times.

[zulander]

Slow roll your mana creatures. So you can play a big creature like a Knight next turn. Most of their removal is sac effects so as long as you have sac fodder you should be fine. Also, punishing fire is good against Liliana. Life from the loam is good against them, especially if you can get back a dryad arbor to sac to small pox and the like multiple times.

Dryad arbor actually isn't very good as you have to go in the order smallpox says.

[Water_Wizard]

Dear maverick players,

I am looking for a 1 or 2 cards to put in my board against pox (loam or mono black), nic fit, and decks that run perish or pernicious deed. I already run 1 elspeth in the main. Thank you for your help.

Garruk Relentless is good. Compost may be worth a look, especially against the mono-black list, since they have no way of removing it.

Kitchen Finks is also good and is a GSZ target, unlike Elspeth/Garruk.

[Osmin]

Dear maverick players,

I am looking for a 1 or 2 cards to put in my board against pox (loam or mono black), nic fit, and decks that run perish or pernicious deed. I already run 1 elspeth in the main. Thank you for your help.

Dauntless Escort as GSZ target.

[lyracian]

Dryad arbor actually isn't very good as you have to go in the order smallpox says.
Yes it is; you can use it as the creature or land that you are sacrificing.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Yes it is; you can use it as the creature or land that you are sacrificing.

Yip you can choose to sac it as a land, but then you have to have another creature, otherwise you will sac the Arbor first, then sac a land.

[lyracian]

Yip you can choose to sac it as a land, but then you have to have another creature, otherwise you will sac the Arbor first, then sac a land.
The point being you can bring Arbour back with Loam and use it as either a land or creature to pox effects.

[Koby]

SCG videos finally got uploaded:

SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 2 - Part 1 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-1-5909305)
SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 2 - Part 2 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-2-5908305)
SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 3 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-3-5908702)

Note that I chose to draw each game when given a choice.

[Raystar]

SCG videos finally got uploaded:

SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 2 - Part 1 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-1-5909305)
SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 2 - Part 2 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-2-5908305)
SCG:LA Top 8 - Game 3 (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgla-leg-top-8b-nathan-calvin-vs-jacob-kory-3-5908702)

Note that I chose to draw each game when given a choice.

Great games, thanks for sharing. It's like watching the reference manual of the deck, there are a couple of plays that I will always remember.

I have a question for you: why did you choose to un-equip the skull crusher in the second game to re-equip it on the knight? I think that costed the game, didn't it?

[Koby]

Great games, thanks for sharing. It's like watching the reference manual of the deck, there are a couple of plays that I will always remember.

I have a question for you: why did you choose to un-equip the skull crusher in the second game to re-equip it on the knight? I think that costed the game, didn't it?

I wanted to gain a bunch of life off Lifelink - and failed to play around Path to Exile. Had it been Swords to Plowshares I would have been in fine shape. Immediately after that game I recognized I should have equipped the Scavenging Ooze instead, leaving the Knight on the defense.

[bakofried]

Have you done much testing with the idea of replacing Thrun in the main and the two chokes in the side with some configuration of Garruks and Elspeths?

[Koby]

I still like Choke in the SB, so no change there. An alternative might be to use Carpet of Flowers, which actually makes it useful against RUG Tempo too.

I am testing the following changes:

+2 Garruk Relentless
+1 Silhana Ledgewalker
-1 Thrun
-1 Scryb Ranger
-1 Gaddock Teeg (to the SB)

I've already noticed the Ledgewalker picking up some slack esp against the mirror, and carrying an Equipment.

[anarki]

Hello, I was planning on running a list like this at SCG Cincinnati. I was wondering how you sideboard in specific matches like UW and RUG. For example against UW Stoneforge what do you take out usually? I want to bring in Choke, E Tutors, and Red Blast. I've considered taking some zenith's out and a few creatures, but I might be way off base here. Any help is much appreciated.

2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Batterskull
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
2 Path to Exile

[Koby]

The Tutor package is there to combat Combo decks (Storm, Burn, Reanimator sometimes, etc) and is not intended to be brought in against decks that attrition.

If you're willing to sacrifice the combo matchups, you can eliminate the Tutors entirely to focus on winning the fair matchups. This means upping more Chokes, removal, and Canonist (since we really can't afford to NOT run them anyway).

A good tip for SB in difficult matchups is to just put in all 75 together, and cut the worst 15 cards. Think about what your opponent is bringing in (such as Wraths, Submerge, Lavamancers, Path to Exile) and board accordingly.

Against UW:
Sword of Feast and Famine is rather weak since they bring in a ton of spot removal and sweepers. It's only useful against a fresh Batterskull in terms of protection. Swapping for the SB Batterskull is a good idea, and possibly trimming the numbers on SFM here and there. Additionally, Mindcensors are rather weak being a 3 drop, but the Flash and Flying abilities are useful. Hierarch is pretty bad since it forces you to commit more creatures onto the field to use her Exalted - consider trimming those by a few.

The goal of SB games is to maintain pressure but not walk into a Wrath. A Sword of Light/Shadow equipped Gaddock Teeg can do wonders in this matchup (pro:SFM/StP and pro: Germ/Dismember, shuts off Jace and Elspeth). Punishing Fire will help you in the late game - try to play the long game if you can't keep a threat active.

Against RUG Tempo:
Mana efficiency is the name of the game. Cut any slower cards like Elspeth, SFM, and Pridemages. Bring in Paths for extra removal (very rarely do they play more than 1 land), REB, and possibly Bojuka Bog as extra mana source and a timely use with KotR against Snapcasters or Goyfs.

This matchup is dominated by tempo and momentum. Attempt to fetch basics as soon as its safe to do so. Also watch out for Submerge when using a shuffle effect. Try to keep Mother of Runes on the defense to nullify their removal. Watch out for Fire//Ice and try not to play into it early on. It's better to lead with only one 1-toughness creature and follow with a 2-toughness creature.

Less seen SB cards that are useful:
Oblivion Ring - good vs PWers
Pithing Needle - ditto/wide use
COP: Red - Respect.
Crucible of Worlds/Life from the Loam
Serenity

@Others
Feel free to add to the list of useful SB cards.

[Fl0do]

@SB: I'm currently playing without tutors.

Also I'm playing without Tarmogoyf and the third Stoneforge Mystic. For those I play the second Scavenging Ooze and the third Aven Mindcensor. I don't think Maverick should not play less than 3 Mindcensors, Flash and Flying are such useful abilities, also is his ability to deny tutors is useful against many decks in the format (Blade Control, Mirror, Nic Fit, almost every Combo Deck).

My current Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Krosan Grip

[BlackStarDeceiver]

It's pretty safe to board out Swords to Plowshares against UW with Punishing.

You get 3 or 4 REB which can fulfill the same role in that matchup while being able to Force through a Choke or kill Jace.

SB:

Needle is awesome when you see a lot of Deeds as well as Lavamancers, comes in Handy in other matchups as well.

Kitchen Finks - maindecked or board, awesome against Zoo and Burn (UR)

Cataclysm - against Nic Fit and heavy control lists, stronger in lists with 2 Sylvan Libraries, easily breakble symmetric effect



Strategy:

How do you guys play against UR Delver Burn, lost 3 Times out of 7 Matches the last week, each 1-2 with the win in game 2 then losing again on the draw, mostly because of Lavamancer. Those where the 6 games i lost in the last 4 weeks, and it should change ;)

[majikal]

How do you guys play against UR Delver Burn, lost 3 Times out of 7 Matches the last week, each 1-2 with the win in game 2 then losing again on the draw, mostly because of Lavamancer. Those where the 6 games i lost in the last 4 weeks, and it should change ;)
The key is to not be tempted to play the control role. You are the beatdown in this match, and you need to overload their board with creatures.

[Fatal]

Don't bring E.Tutor vs UW - its card disadvantage, much better is Gaddock blocking Elspeth/Jace/WoGs

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Yep thats clear, the longer the game goes the more burn they'll get. Maybe hitting only one StP and always sitting on Canopy adds to this. I guess i'll play Finks in the Terravore slot as well.

Any thoughts on Abolute Law in the GW Sideboard? Helps with UR Burn and Punishing Fires.


UW: Another nice play is GSZ x=3 and pick Teeg if you set em on Wrath in hand, as they won't counter is most of the time.

[majikal]

Yep thats clear, the longer the game goes the more burn they'll get. Maybe hitting only one StP and always sitting on Canopy adds to this. I guess i'll play Finks in the Terravore slot as well.

Any thoughts on Abolute Law in the GW Sideboard? Helps with UR Burn and Punishing Fires.

Your ideal line of play is turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic. They have to answer both of those creatures immediately or they just lose. Usually this buys you enough time to go for Ooze -> gain life and get huge, or Knight of the Reliquary -> shenanigans. Either way you want to get a huge guy that they can't burn away with one card.

At any rate, if they don't answer either Mom or SFM, go for Batterskull and just win (game 1). If they answer Mom, get Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice (if you play it), as they might be able to trap Batterskull in your hand by killing SFM after you tutor.

Game 2 is a little trickier as they can bring in Smash to Smithereens for your equipment. If you must go the equipment route in this game, Batterskull is what you want, as long as you can keep returning it, although the Ooze plan is probably just your best option.

[Shimi]

Hi, I take a look at Prime but could not find a SB plan(for GW and GWr versions) against Uw Stoneblades lists, someone can post it for me?

Thx.

[majikal]

Hi, I take a look at Prime but could not find a SB plan(for GW and GWr versions) against Uw Stoneblades lists, someone can post it for me?

Thx.
The sideboard won't win you the game, but it is a pretty easy matchup if your play is tight. Don't overextend into Wrath of God unless you have to. Kill Stoneforge Mystic on sight, and don't run your important cards into Spellstutter Sprite.

Don't blow your creature spells when they have counters available if you can help it. If at all possible, bait them with GSZ and then play the creature when you've run them out of cards, especially if it's something like Knight or Pridemage that provides a utility role. You may have to offer up a lesser creature to get countered if there's something you really want to push through. Pretty much everything is a threat to them in your deck, so if you apply enough pressure, it's pretty easy to force their hand when it comes to countering your spells.

If they are sitting on fetchlands, try and use Wasteland on their available mana to force them to crack them, and then troll them with Mindcensor.

Also, Thrun.

And I guess you can side in some Chokes or whatever, but a lot of players see that coming now.

ALTHOUGH, you can get value out of it if your balls are big enough to run out just one too many creatures to force a Wrath, and then Choke them when they're tapped out.

[bakofried]

Anyone going to take a little look at this list?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43748

[Koby]

This is the version I've come to after some testing:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Parallax Wave
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

+2 flex slots I'm varying between the third Witness/Library/Pridemage/Wave, the fourth KotR, a Scavenging Ooze or 1-2 Elspeth.


You mean this Jack Elgin list? (circa July 2011) It's definitely unorthodox for the archetype, but the choices are well justified. I'd be interested to hear from IBA how Parallax Wave performed in the tournament, as well as the SB Armageddons.

[bakofried]

Essentially, haha. I just didn't know if anyone was going to bring it up; it was the only GW "Maverick" deck in the top 32 (I believe?). Some of the changes are interesting. Has anyone tried out a list looking like that before?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Parallax Wave is just bonkers when there's a lot of UW Stoneblade, as well as the mirrors.

You can do some neat stuff with it in combination with Witness and Pridemage.

Top 32:

The Bant Stoneblade list is essentially Mav + BS and Geist and Naya Stoneblade is Pun Mav.



Maybe IBA will give us insight on what played out well and what didn't.

[Derayler]

I was the Punishing Fire deck in top 16. I decided just to keep the NO package after DC, but pyroblast wasn't that great so I cut it for Flusterstorm to wreck combo and then put a War Monk in the main instead of a COP: Red (COP: Red can also stop Progenitus) in the board. The only things I lost to were a reanimator nut draw twice in a row (T1 Entomb with FOW back up and the reanimation spell) and the burn guy who won. I won game 1 with Jitte, but lost the other 2 even after I got War Monk because he drew vary well and had all the burn.

I really like Natural Order in the board of this deck. I bring it in against RUG and just auto win those matches as well as any other creature deck. The only card I did not like in the deck was Punishing Fire. With UW stoneblade on the down swing it isn't as good and that's really the only deck that it truly shines against. I didn't actually ever board in the flusterstorms yesterday, but I still feel like they are the best combo hate available and I just didn't get paired against combo so I still believe it was worth the slots.

Now that I know I am going to cut red I think it is probably best to go Bant for Geist and sideboard Flusterstorm or spell pierce. Oddly enough if I decide to go Bant than I think I would cut the NO package because Geist is pretty good against the decks you want NO against. Now the only choice I'm trying to make is whether I want to cut the Maverick shell and play traditional Bant in which I would keep the NO package or try and just kill people with Mom and Geist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hi, yeah. I have to run off to class in a few so I don't have time to type up a full tournament report; my losses all day were one to Ben Friedman's UW Stoneblade and one to Josh Cho playing RUG Tempo. I know the Hatfields' numbers have shown differently, and it may be the changes in the list, but the latter certainly felt like an anomaly; I crushed Cho game 1 and games 2 and 3 involved some really bizarre circumstances, short version being that game 2 I went 18 cards deep with active Top without being able to find an answer to a lone Delver plunking away at my life total, and game 3 I ended up doing ten damage to myself with Canopies (even then I would have won except I misplayed, more details on that later.)

Blade control seems like less than an ideal matchup by any means, on the other hand. Infinite StPs + Wraths out of the board are just a very good game plan against you.

Anyway, this list itself has been really powerful, the SB needs retooling; if Armageddons had been Chokes and everything else held equal I probably wouldn't have lost a round. The reasoning behind Geddon was to compliment Thorn as an anti-combo card but it would probably just be better to go back to 1 Teeg 3 Canonist, or just abandon the combo matchup entirely. My one win against Charbelcher round 1 was a fluke as a result of him walking a Belcher out into a Pridemage and then losing g2 because he realized he misregistered his sideboard. And that's about the only way I could win that matchup regardless of the sideboard so yeah.

The basic theory behind this list was to cut independently weak cards and increase the card filtering to just get a more consistent list that can, especially, survive mulligans and disruption. I won one game after mulliganing to four on the draw, which I just can't see a lot of these lists floating around doing.

The deck's secondary plan aside from Knight-beats is Troll-stick: get a Thrun active with Jitte and most decks seem to just die to that. I was running SFM but since you want Jitte most of the time anyway it seems better to go with that. Also cleared up room for the 4th Library, but since drawing multiples sucks I went with a 2 Top/2 Library split so you can shuffle the extras back. Top's better against very aggro decks anyway since you can't really afford to Flame Rift yourself.

Wave and Elspeth were bombs all day. I got to use Wave in most of its major functions; to remove a bunch of blockers and kill them, to protect my own guys from targeted removal, to hit three guys at once and then Pridemage it before passing priority to permanently exile them; and to use the last counter to exile a Witness and immediately get Wave back. There was nothing really about the maindeck I feel compelled to change at all, except maybe -1 Canopy for +1 Wasteland? I didn't really have any mana problems except that one game where double Canopy killed me. I did have a few times where another Wasteland might have helped.

The Witness spread is amazing, the two in the board let you basically copy the Snapcaster/StP plan in the mirror and against other aggro-control decks of casting StP infinite times, against graveyard decks being able to recur Crypts just makes the card even that much stronger at hosing shenanigans, and it's one of the best cards generally against Blade Control. I'm pretty sure 4 Witness/3 Choke would have been a lot harder for them to deal with.

[Artlee]

Quick note:

If burn keeps seeing more play and you are playing with tutor board like me, maybe we should consider Aegis of honor.


If we have tutor, we can play it on turn 2
Red does not have any enchantment removal (as far as I know)
This one's little more farfetchd but it might help versus tendrils

[SlopeeJ]

Tendrils is life loss not damage.

I don't know about burn, when ever I played it I always ended up top decking lands after I blew my load and they were at 2-5 life. Maybe it is better with the 4 fireblasts and price of progress, but 19 lands and no card draw/fetches never worked for me. Is Maverick really that worried about burn? Is the manabase just the issue?

[Asthereal]

Tendrils causes loss of life, it doesn't deal damage, so that won't work.
But otherwise I kind of like the idea.
Costs less mana to cast and sends the damage to your opponent, which is nasty. :wink:

Lol someone else was a bit quicker.
I score about 50% against burn. Getting Cop: Red means instant win, not finding it means 60% chance of losing.
Batterskull and friends get Smashed to Smithereens and creatures are usually too slow. Still it's winnable.
Kitchen Finks is a must when you are not packing Tutors + CoP: Red, Warmth or that thing which was just suggested.

[maktus]

Hey guys, what you use against zoo?

[Koby]

Hey guys, what you use against zoo?

Path to Exile, Equipment, Mother of Runes, KotR, StP, Sylvan Library, planeswalkers.

In short, all the usual tools we already have in our disposal. Batterskull is really good in this matchup to pad the life total. A typical metric as to whether you'll be winning the game is whether you can survive to the mid-game with a life total above 10. The biggest challenge against Zoo is dealing with the first 3 turns of their aggression.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hey guys, what you use against zoo?

Knights/Goyfs/Jitte/Thrun + Wave. StP + Witness is about as good as Snapcaster; sometimes better. Postboard I'm running 6 StP effects + 4 Witness so it's pretty easy to seize the early game. Scavenging Ooze also helps a bit in having lifegain that's not Grudgeable.

Although the different builds of Zoo play very differently, generally big guys + spot removal is your best bet which happens to be the deck's strategy anyway. I mean the entire deck is built pretty much to play with decks like Zoo. Not to say that you can't lose or that there's not a build of Zoo that's a bad matchup even, but you shouldn't have to go out of your way to interact with them.

[Asthereal]

My latest list looks like this:

PUNISHING MAV

Creatures:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll /23

Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow /16

Lands:
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland /21

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Life from the Loam
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks /15

I really love the Thalias. They help not only against stormcombo, but also against the very popular RUG Tempo decks out there. Punishing Fire is also nice there. I'm looking forward to playing this on my next tourney. Any advice so far?

[KobeBryan]

The one card Rukcus suggested, Silhana Ledgewalker is one HELL of a card to fight against when equipped with a sword.

I played against it with a RUG tempo and a RUW tempo deck and this guy was MVP each game.

There's not much you can do to that guy in many decks.

[Koby]

Seems people are really enamored with Punishing Fire build, but I still prefer the strict GW version. Here's my list since several people are asking for it:

Dudes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

Non-dudes
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of X & Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Green-fetchlands
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
2-3 Choke
2-3 Path to Exile
1-2 Planeswalkers (Garruk 3.0 & Elspeth likely)
1 Sword of Light & Shadow
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2-3 Ethersworn Canonist

meta dependent:
Life from the Loam
Thorn of Amethyst
Oblivion Ring
Pithing Needle
Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Phyrexian Metamorph
Tormod's Crypt
Surgical Extraction
Serenity/Energy Flux
Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce (subbing 1 Savannah for 1 Tropical Island MD)

[majikal]

That is exactly my list as well. Ledgewalker is just amazing at the moment, although at times I do wish I had a Thrun.

[Koby]

I ended up cutting Thrun for Elspeth. I was never really happy with Thrun in most matchups, and Elspeth provides other ways to address thos dificult matchups. They both shine against Jace decks, and both are great against Deed decks. I like that Elspeth can just end games quickly rather than stall like Thrun does.

[majikal]

I ended up cutting Thrun for Elspeth. I was never really happy with Thrun in most matchups, and Elspeth provides other ways to address thos dificult matchups. They both shine against Jace decks, and both are great against Deed decks. I like that Elspeth can just end games quickly rather than stall like Thrun does.
I was already running Elspeth. Both would be great. I'm debating cutting a pridemage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I ended up cutting Thrun for Elspeth. I was never really happy with Thrun in most matchups, and Elspeth provides other ways to address thos dificult matchups. They both shine against Jace decks, and both are great against Deed decks. I like that Elspeth can just end games quickly rather than stall like Thrun does.

Yeah, Elspeth is great, you should probably run something more than a singleton you have one card to help you find.

Honestly, why are people building this deck so haphazardly? Stop sticking in random one ofs you can't even tutor for. I mean it would be one thing if these lists were running more ways to dig, but a lot of people leaning way too heavily on luck.

Also not sure why 3x SFM 2x targets has become the norm; I know I didn't like playing Squire after raw-drawing an equipment and a second Stoneforge when I was running them.

[Koby]

Yeah, Elspeth is great, you should probably run something more than a singleton you have one card to help you find.

Honestly, why are people building this deck so haphazardly? Stop sticking in random one ofs you can't even tutor for. I mean it would be one thing if these lists were running more ways to dig, but a lot of people leaning way too heavily on luck.

Also not sure why 3x SFM 2x targets has become the norm; I know I didn't like playing Squire after raw-drawing an equipment and a second Stoneforge when I was running them.

My philosophy on the deck is to have a inch-thick, mile-wide threat base in the Maindeck, then fix up the deck during SB games to the matchup at hand. That's why I'm including 1-2 extra PWers in the SB. Also, the deck is currently running 3 SFM with 3 targets (1 SB). There are some matchups where I board into the 4th equipment rather than just replace it.

I've also approached this deck with somewhat a mana curve in consideration. I would rather maintain a lower curve than have a bunch of 4 drops stuck in my hand that I can only cast one per turn. Running multiple Elspeths has caused this issue for me in the past. This is considered together with playing a minor Mana denial plan with 4 Wastelands.

There is no doubt that Sylvan Library and Elspeth are powerful in a vacuum. Other decks could justifiably run more to see them more frequently. My experience with this deck has shown me that multiple Sylvan Library's and Elspeth to be more a hinderance than benefit.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, you're right, missed the B-Skull. My bad. I generally only look for Swords and Jitte as I strenuously disagree with the running of Batterskull in a deck this creature heavy and that's interested in earlier wins. I mean I don't even want it maindeck in my build if I do switch back to SFM, and I'm running a much more control heavy build than most lists I've seen, I think.

The mana curve is a fair point and one reason I found it beneficial to cut SFM for just more Jittes, since SFM pads the amount of mana you're playing to get a toy online, even if it is over several turns.

Avoiding dead multiples is also why I split up Tops and Libraries; it increases odds greatly of drawing a way to control your draw step while letting you usually throw away multiples (barring drawing both Libraries, which should be rare.)

[Koby]

I can dig the Tops/Library symmetry for this type of deck. I wouldn't even fault anyone for including more Tops and adding Squadron Hawk to the list. Flyers are still fucking great in this format. Until the point where SFM is banned or completely marginalized, I wouldn't run it myself however. The Hawk strategy is better suited with AEther Vial.

EDIT: Jack - based on your list, I would even consider playing with Cataclysm. It seems better suited than Armageddon against a wide variety of decks. It might be a good card to test in your version.

[majikal]

Yeah, Elspeth is great, you should probably run something more than a singleton you have one card to help you find.
This is valid. I think there's not a lot of room for 4-drops in this deck, and if I have to choose between Elspeth and Thrun, I'd rather have one of each. Although, with UW decks starting to pack Elspeth and Wrath of God, cutting Thrun entirely and jamming in more Planeswalkers may just be the right move.


Honestly, why are people building this deck so haphazardly? Stop sticking in random one ofs you can't even tutor for. I mean it would be one thing if these lists were running more ways to dig, but a lot of people leaning way too heavily on luck.
The only one-ofs that I endorse that aren't green creatures or equipments are Sylvan Library and Elspeth (if you're not running more than one). Elspeth has more merit in multiples, I think, and I never want to see more than one Library, but I'm always happy to see exactly one.



Also not sure why 3x SFM 2x targets has become the norm; I know I didn't like playing Squire after raw-drawing an equipment and a second Stoneforge when I was running them.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Three SFM targets is a must.

[maktus]

Path to Exile, Equipment, Mother of Runes, KotR, StP, Sylvan Library, planeswalkers.

In short, all the usual tools we already have in our disposal. Batterskull is really good in this matchup to pad the life total. A typical metric as to whether you'll be winning the game is whether you can survive to the mid-game with a life total above 10. The biggest challenge against Zoo is dealing with the first 3 turns of their aggression.

thanks for the reply! In my region there are many aggro decks and a few blues, and I was thinking of putting something in the sb to resist the first 3 turns in place of 2x choke, what do you think best:
Dueling Grounds - synergy with maze
Ghostly Prison - synergy with wasteland and thalia
(I can use 2x of them or 2x E.tutor +1x enchantment)

[Koby]

thanks for the reply! In my region there are many aggro decks and a few blues, and I was thinking of putting something in the sb to resist the first 3 turns in place of 2x choke, what do you think best:
Dueling Grounds - synergy with maze
Ghostly Prison - synergy with wasteland and thalia
(I can use 2x of them or 2x E.tutor +1x enchantment)

It depends on which type of Zoo you're facing. Some are closer to Sligh, while others are close to Maverick (kotr, Punishing Fires, etc). Extra spot removal is good, as well as the planeswalkers. Oddly enough, I found Thrun to be very effective against Zoo as a defensive wall. Playing your own Goyfs also help in this battle.

[MiniLuv]

You can also sideboard in SoLaS like the list ruckus posted above as it gives color protection vs Helix + Path. The lifegain + returning creature to hand (there will be one in your grave almost 100% of the time) are all revelant abilities.

@ruckus Are the 2 Krosan Grips simply for the metagame (Deed using decks) in your area? It just seems like 3 Pridemage + 4 GSZ MD is enough and having 2 more 3cc cost cards may be a little much.

[Koby]

You can also sideboard in SoLaS like the list ruckus posted above as it gives color protection vs Helix + Path. The lifegain + returning creature to hand (there will be one in your grave almost 100% of the time) are all revelant abilities.

@ruckus Are the 2 Krosan Grips simply for the metagame (Deed using decks) in your area? It just seems like 3 Pridemage + 4 GSZ MD is enough and having 2 more 3cc cost cards may be a little much.

At this point I'm gearing up for the Grand Prix, so I'm expecting a wide open metagame. That means expecting completely random archetypes like Counterbalance, Affinity, Enchantress, Burn/RDW, Zoo, Hive Mind, as well as all the usual suspects. Having additional removal against Equipment that are Instant speed is also of good use. I would use Nature's Claim, but it is soft to Counterbalance too.

Humility is a big concern - that's one reason to consider Krosan Grip.

[mini1337s]

Seems people are really enamored with Punishing Fire build, but I still prefer the strict GW version. Here's my list since several people are asking for it:

Dudes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

Non-dudes
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of X & Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Green-fetchlands
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
2-3 Choke
2-3 Path to Exile
1-2 Planeswalkers (Garruk 3.0 & Elspeth likely)
1 Sword of Light & Shadow
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
2-3 Ethersworn Canonist

meta dependent:
Life from the Loam
Thorn of Amethyst
Oblivion Ring
Pithing Needle
Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Phyrexian Metamorph
Tormod's Crypt
Surgical Extraction
Serenity/Energy Flux
Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce (subbing 1 Savannah for 1 Tropical Island MD)

My List:
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of F+I
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills (to trick them into thinking there are P-Fire in my list :P)
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

MAINDECK DIFFERENCES
-1 Noble Hierarch
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Silhana Ledgewalker
-1 Terravore


+1 Birds of Paradise
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
+1 Maze of Ith


SIBEBOARD:
3x Path to Exile
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Choke
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Krosan Grip
1x Stony Silence
1x Life from the Loam

Changes I like about your list:
Ledgewalker looks really good, and I might try removing a Stoneforge for her. I run 4 Stoneforges, as my rational is that they can not be picked up with Zenith, so I want every possible chance of getting them. There shuffle effect is very strong with Sylvan Library too, which is why I run 2 copies.
The Ooze differences is a meta thing. I have a second ooze, but I'm not grabbing it enough to run a second. Terravore is the same thing; just no reason in my meta.
I've tried both 4x Hierarch and 3x Hierarch/1x BoP. Exalted is very powerful, but I like having the out with BoP to hold a sword/Jitte, especially as I maximize on SFM (it also chumps all sorts of legends). I may bring up the Hierarchs and cut the Maze of Ith, just to help maximize on exalted triggers (poor judge promo maze).
Some lists like Thrun, some don't; total preference. For me, he's worth the slot. Actually, he helped me pull tricks with GSZ the other day: Playing versus UW Stoneblade game 2, Play GSZ on 4, he knew I had Thrun, but I was tapping out. I figured he boarded in Wraths, pulled out my Teeg. GSZ tricks won that game, because he had 0 board presence, and no way to beat onboard Mom and Teeg. After the game, he confirmed that he lost, because he was going all in on Wrath. GSZ tricks are huge.

Sideboard differs a bit; you have less graveyard hate then me, but Bog is huge. Used to run it, but went with Relic of Progenitus and 2x Crypt. Thinking about going to 1x Bog, 2x Crypt, and cutting Tutor and Choke for Sword of Light and Shadow and Elsepth/Garruk. Tutor is okay, but it's not that important to me. Haven't had a chance to test out Stony Silence, but should be fine for what I want it to do.

Love the deck though, but I think it better tuned to your meta than mine.

[majikal]

Humility is a big concern - that's one reason to consider Krosan Grip.
I disagree with this statement. We have a metric fuckton of threats, and even with Humility out we can leverage value over UW opponents by (a) having more 1/1 guys than them, (b) having up to 4 equipments after sideboard to make our guys bigger than theirs (and with Jitte, SoFI and SoLS we gain card advantage too), and (c) playing our own Elspeths to keep them from blowing us out with theirs and also blowing them out if they fail to draw theirs.

Humility is the least of our worries, IMO.

Also, I've decided to try Worship as a 1-of in my E. Tutor board to handle both Burn and Affinity in one go, as that card worked extremely well for me in Extended a few seasons ago when the meta was very similar to what we have in Legacy now.

[MiniLuv]

I disagree with this statement. We have a metric fuckton of threats, and even with Humility out we can leverage value over UW opponents by (a) having more 1/1 guys than them, (b) having up to 4 equipments after sideboard to make our guys bigger than theirs (and with Jitte, SoFI and SoLS we gain card advantage too), and (c) playing our own Elspeths to keep them from blowing us out with theirs and also blowing them out if they fail to draw theirs.

Humility is the least of our worries, IMO.

Also, I've decided to try Worship as a 1-of in my E. Tutor board to handle both Burn and Affinity in one go, as that card worked extremely well for me in Extended a few seasons ago when the meta was very similar to what we have in Legacy now.

I actually do think Humility is a concern. You are unable to blow it up with Pridemage. You will be caught between overextending into Wrath of God and maintaining board presence with a bunch of 1/1's. They can card filter their way into drawing the board sweeper, Jace/Elspeth, more removal, and sealing the game with manlands.

[majikal]

I actually do think Humility is a concern. You are unable to blow it up with Pridemage. You will be caught between overextending into Wrath of God and maintaining board presence with a bunch of 1/1's. They can card filter their way into drawing the board sweeper, Jace/Elspeth, more removal, and sealing the game with manlands.
Manlands can be problematic, but we do have Wasteland.

I mean, Humility is a concern, but it's not a major concern. Equipment + Elspeth really makes it easy to blow through a Humility, and that's easily 4-5 maindecked answers + whatever out of the board. Krosan Grip helps, and it gets rid of the problem immediately, but I'm not sure it's actually necessary for the simple reason that we have, for the most part, the same tools that decks packing Humility use to break its symmetry.

[Koby]

I will be including Krosan Grip/Seal of Cleansing/Primordium in my future SB plans as a multi angle approach. I might swap one with Oblivion Ring, but I definitely want a way to deal with problematic Artifacts & Enchantments. Blood Moon can be a total blow out early on and fighting equipment outside the stack is really nice.

Thoughts on Krosan Grip vs Seal vs O-Ring as the SB approach? (I'm thinking a max of 3 for this suite, and realistically 2-of)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't agree that Humility isn't problematic as a card, but I haven't seen evidence that it's widely played. And while a painful card it's not the end of the world, as the deck can still get there with equipment/Elspeth (or other planeswalkers; incidentally I wonder why I haven't seen a list of Punishing Maverick running Ajani Vengeant.)

Regardless, given the deck's other needs I don't feel compelled to run either Grip or O-Ring in my board, although I would lean towards the latter if anything. Against Blade Control I think Jace is a much bigger problem than Batterskull.

I do want to say that Silhana Ledgewalker is sweet as fuck and should definitely be in the lists running 5+ equipment slots (including SFM). In such a list it seems much stronger than a singleton Thrun, since the first ability doesn't show up when you have to GSZ for five mana and you get it Dazed, whereas Ledgewalker's evasion and much lower casting cost are pretty much always relevant.

But it'd probably be better (and here I'm going to flip people out) in such a list to cut Moms entirely so you can fit in both a double Thrun and a Ledgewalker or two. They'll give the removal-heavy decks a much more consistent headache than Mom, who can't be tutored for and doesn't do anything much past turn 1-2 in my experience, and can still fall victim to Lavamancer, Jitte or Snapcaster tricks pretty easily. Mother of Runes was always, in my opinion, a borderline card- I tested it a fair bit and always found it serviceable but underwhelming- and I think the meta is generally able to handle it at this point.

Double-Ooze is sweet and surprisingly relevant against a large number of decks; but I've already gone over my preference for running doubles of all the highly flexible GSZ targets and no singletons of the more dependent ones (Ledgewalker being an example of a creature that's really good if you can get equipment very reliably but not otherwise.)

@Majikal: Drawing double Library sucks, but that's one dead card you're drawing versus all the lands/fluff you're going to draw in an attrition war if you don't have a way to stack your deck; and games against other goodstuff decks, Zoo, Blade Control and Merfolk/Goblins usually come down to an attrition war. Library also has a high chance of being countered or killed in my experience. I really think that 3x library manipulation is the minimum people should be running, either 3 Library or 1 Top 2 Library.

I mean Library can more or less be viewed as a legendary card, and while legendary is a real drawback (I've sat around with double Jitte in hand too), it has a finite negative value. I only run one Karakas because the marginal benefit of having a second copy to draw raw against Reanimator/SnT isn't worth the cost of drawing it when I really need another land and have the first in play. On the other hand, if the card is exceptionally powerful in a wide range of matchups as Thrun or Jitte or Elspeth, then it can be worth it, especially if they're going to try and deal with that card. I know that if Knight of the Reliquary was legendary, for instance, it would certainly not be correct to only run one (might go down to three, though, not sure.)

[majikal]

I can see your reasoning for cutting Mom in favor of more hexproof guys, but I'm not sure it would work out in practice.

I like Mother of Runes specifically because she dies early. They have to waste a removal spell on her, allowing you to disrupt the early game against aggro decks and burn decks with amazing consistency. It comes down to dealing with Mother or losing, and in many cases, it means dealing with Mother and then losing because they couldn't deal with Stoneforge Mystic or whatever else you drop.

With Ledgewalker (in multiples, I mean - it's an amazing GSZ target), not so much. They'll just burn your face and force you to chump, and you might be dead by the time Thrun comes down to play superwall or you can suit up Ledgewalker to go on the offensive.

Re: Library manipulation - I want to like Top, really. But I find myself using all of my mana almost every turn for one thing or another and just can't see myself ever playing it in Maverick.

Your build is a lot lighter on creatures, so I guess I can see where it would come in handy, but I feel like just having ALL THE THREATS is a better plan.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, it's nice when they waste relevant removal on Mom that means they don't have it for Knight. The problem is that a lot of the time they don't; it's a Lavamancer or a Punishing Fire or a Cursed Scroll or a Jitte, or she gets caught up and loses you another card against Wrath or Deed because she can't do anything by herself. Or they do spend an StP or a PtE on Mom and then Snapcaster it back anyway making up the difference.

I think my list actually runs more threats also. Like Thrun and Goyf and Elspeth and even Scavenging Ooze, much of the time, are threats. Mom and Scryb Ranger are cute cards that do tricks sometimes and can and do win games but are, by themselves, 1/1s. And 1/1s are only creatures in the most technical sense of the word.

OTOH if your meta is full of fast red decks I'd feel like you'd want more Goyfs over Moms. Mom can chump effectively but can't whittle down an attacking wave of inferior one mana dorks. Not like anyone plays Jackal Pup anymore.

(I will say that the best reason I've heard to run Mom is to protect Canonists etc.. from bounce against combo. If Tendrils were a more prevalent deck this would weigh the argument considerably.)

[majikal]

Mom plays a more vital role than just holding off dorks. Once you get board presence, she keeps you from getting chumped all day while they burn you to death. Pro Red your huge Knight and just go fucking kill them.

That's honestly one of the main reasons to keep her. She wins standoffs where the board gets clogged and the opponent may have flyers to block your Ledgewalkers and Scryb Rangers.

The other reason is protecting guys while you equip them, and hatebears.

But you're not running Stoneforge, so I can see why you wouldn't need her.

I think it really just comes down to playstyle preferences.



Here's what I'm currently playing, for reference:

4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Terravore/Thrun (depending on meta)

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sylvan Library
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Forest
1x Plains
4x Wasteland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mom plays a more vital role than just holding off dorks. Once you get board presence, she keeps you from getting chumped all day while they burn you to death. Pro Red your huge Knight and just go fucking kill them.

That's honestly one of the main reasons to keep her. She wins standoffs where the board gets clogged and the opponent may have flyers to block your Ledgewalkers and Scryb Rangers.

The other reason is protecting guys while you equip them, and hatebears.

But you're not running Stoneforge, so I can see why you wouldn't need her.

I think it really just comes down to playstyle preferences.

Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.

[Koby]

Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.

I can agree with this. That's why my plan against Wrath/Deed is to bring in Planeswalkers and board out a few Noble hierarchs. Man those are the worst trap against such decks.

FWIW, I've been testing 2 Elspeth and SoLS MD and have had good results. SoFI has been underwhelming except for trying to race combo. Thrun has been removed for the time being (and should be considered a meta slot with Terravore, as majikal indicated).

[majikal]

Well, metagame considerations might be more accurate. Having ways to break groundstalls is definitely important. Of course that's another reason I like running 3x Jitte over the SFM package; you don't have to assemble a team, a Thrun by himself with a Jitte is going to beat most decks and most board positions. I think a real problem with a lot of these lists is opening yourself up to too many mass removal spells by building up a large board full of synergistic guys. Like Wrath or Deed, or for that matter other Jittes or Pyrokinesis and just random other cards, are going to be good against you no matter what, but some of these list seem to be exacerbating how good they are with a lot of utility dorks.
I like this line of thought until I realize that there is still lots of Maverick out there, and they play Mother or Runes too, making Thrun with a Jitte a lot less frightening for the mirror. Also Death and Taxes, another deck with Mom, seems to be picking up popularity again due to the printing of Thalia, although if other white hatebears are any indication that will last a month or two and then fade away.

All in all, I think Mother of Runes at this point in time is a correct meta call. But who knows what the future will bring?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like this line of thought until I realize that there is still lots of Maverick out there, and they play Mother or Runes too, making Thrun with a Jitte a lot less frightening for the mirror. Also Death and Taxes, another deck with Mom, seems to be picking up popularity again due to the printing of Thalia, although if other white hatebears are any indication that will last a month or two and then fade away.

All in all, I think Mother of Runes at this point in time is a correct meta call. But who knows what the future will bring?

Forcing them to use Mom on blocking is actually pretty good when Jitte is far from your only line of removal; and when they have to stop Jitte from getting active or immediately lose two guys you're in a pretty good position (of course this is my experience with a more controlling list sans the Swords of Herpaderp.) Conversely, while my list does run a few 1 toughness guys (the mana rampers and Witnesses), the relevance of cards like Darkblast, Jitte, Lavamancer, Fire/Ice, Pyrokinesis and Cursed Scroll is greatly diminished as it takes multiple attacks to kill a Goyf or Knight and usually even an active Ooze; and of course Thrun is right out.

Of course it may be dangerous to speak of "this meta" when that's subject to regional variation, but I haven't really run into either rl or in an online testing many situations where I really wished I was running Mother of Runes; mainly it's been in the combo matchup, oddly enough.

(Even then SFM lists have the option of Lightning Greaves, which frees up slots and is generally better off the top, although obviously not a turn 1 play.)

@Ruckus: When I was still running SFM I found SoLS really powerful in the board for beating control, but had too many problems maindeck where it was a bad lifegain effect and might as well have been Behemoth Sledge. I take it you've had different results against midrange decks?

[Koby]

@Ruckus: When I was still running SFM I found SoLS really powerful in the board for beating control, but had too many problems maindeck where it was a bad lifegain effect and might as well have been Behemoth Sledge. I take it you've had different results against midrange decks?

Might just be a strange week on MTGO for testing, but there's an incredible amount of Burn (derpaderp winnar) around so I needed some added life-gain. Then I started running into mirrors and other W/x mid-range, and SoFI was not pulling its weight.

The SoFI is now in the SB, so no equipment changed in the 75. I don't feel attracted to any of the remaining swords as they just aren't useful enough. SoFI and SoLS provide the best abilities and protections; SoFF might be warranted in combo-metagames, but no equipment is really useful there.

SoLS is much better in a metagame dominated by W/x SFM decks however.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well there are equipment besides Swords and Jitte, though. Have you thought about Behemoth Sledge if your meta is that red heavy? It makes peoples' asses fireproof, gives Knight evasion and produces a huge life swing.

[Koby]

I have, but the :1::w::g: casting and equip cost makes it much trickier to use with Cradle than the other equipment. I've even considered Armadillo Cloak to break open the mirror; but both suffer from the same problem: giving pro:white will make the pants fall off. Hence, Mother can't protect the guy with the pants, and you just end up losing the tempo for the turn.

[sdematt]

I hate it when I lose my pants.

Sledge seems like an interesting edge, I have to say. But, I definitely think SoLS is super good, even if you're just striking past Batterskulls and not getting STP'd, nevermind the lifegain and recursion.

-Matt

[majikal]

I mean, if you're that desperate for lifelink you can just play Loxodon Warhammer.

[Koby]

None of those options are really that effective as Jitte, which is still the go-to equipment against Burn.

[majikal]

None of those options are really that effective as Jitte, which is still the go-to equipment against Burn.
Agreed.

On a semi-related note, has anyone else tried Worship? I'm having some good results with it in testing so far, and it seems a little less narrow than CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

[Koby]

Agreed.

On a semi-related note, has anyone else tried Worship? I'm having some good results with it in testing so far, and it seems a little less narrow than CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.

I'll test it out this weekend. I guess that means I must keep the E-tutor board intact. It's a good out to Progenitus tho, so that's a good reason to try it out again.

[DragoFireheart]

I mean, if you're that desperate for lifelink you can just play Loxodon Warhammer.

Basilisk Collar is probably a better choice. Half the cost to cast + equip and the deathtouch will kill anything the equipped creature hits.

Or just run Jitte.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean especially with the format gearing as much as it is to early game utili-dorks, and away from Goyfs et. al., I find it increasingly hard to justify options other than more Jittes generally, hence my own personal move away from the SFM-package. I suppose if you're strictly after an anti-burn card Sledge or Sword of War and Peace is better though, although Jitte is already so good that the distinction seems fairly mild.

[zulander]

How do I do autocard? Sorry...

Here's my list:

Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Rune
3 Noble H.
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge
4 Knight
1 Thrun
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

Non-Creatures: 17
2 E. Tutor
1 Sylvan
1 Top
1 Elspeth
3 Swords
1 O. Ring
1 Birthing Pod
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible

Mana: 23
4 Winswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Horizion Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sterring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales

Board:
1 E. Tutor
1 Choke
1 COP: Red
1 E. E
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Kitchen Finks

So I've taken the concept of "packages" to the extreme with this build making it probably the most resilient deck I've ever played. The E. Tutor's in the main help with boarding in extra cards while also finding removal, equipment, mana, etc...

The deck runs 4 packages main:
GSZ
Stoneforge
Knight
E. Tutor

Most of the time when I resolve a Knight I go and get a crucible so I can just do nasty stuff like draw two cards a turn/wastelock/etc...

If I get a stoneforge than I usually E. Tutor for a Birthing Pod so I can get some dudes. I put Gaddock Teeg in the board as there aren't that many combo players in my meta.

The board is pretty straigtforward, for blue decks bring in the Choke and Scryb Ranger, for burn bring in COP Red/Finks/E. Tutor for Dredge bring in E. Tutor/Wheel/Crypt etc... You get the point.

This deck is such a blast to play, I don't know why people don't play it more.

[Sonntag]

Has anyone tried Dueling Grounds as an option vs. aggro decks? I've only been playing this deck (GW version) for a short time but I have found Affinity, Goblins and Burn to be quite problematic MUs. Haven't played Zoo, but surely it would be helpful in that MU as well.

[maktus]

Has anyone tried Dueling Grounds as an option vs. aggro decks? I've only been playing this deck (GW version) for a short time but I have found Affinity, Goblins and Burn to be quite problematic MUs. Haven't played Zoo, but surely it would be helpful in that MU as well.

I'm in doubt which one is better: Dueling Grounds or Gostly Prison

[majikal]

This deck is such a blast to play, I don't know why people don't play it more.
:eek:

Because then it would be the only thing you'd ever play against? I mean, according to tournament data it appears to be the third most popular archetype.

[sdematt]

Third most popular? Not good enough. Time to hand out Savannahs to Standard players.

Worship actually seems like an interesting choice. Most decks might not even bring in outs to it. I know I don't bringing in Enchantment hate against Maverick...

-Matt

[zulander]

Has anyone tried Dueling Grounds as an option vs. aggro decks? I've only been playing this deck (GW version) for a short time but I have found Affinity, Goblins and Burn to be quite problematic MUs. Haven't played Zoo, but surely it would be helpful in that MU as well.


Jitte is the best card against those decks, bring in E. tutor

[Koby]

Jitte is the best card against those decks, bring in E. tutor

Uh... no.

Unless you run silver bullets like Serenity, Energy Flux, COP:red, Worhsip, etc - you don't bring in Etutor for Burn or Affinity; there is never a situation where you want to bring in Etutor vs Goblins.

[makochman]

My take on GWu Maverick.

mainboard: 60 cards
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Mother of Runes

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

23 lands
3 Wasteland
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 15 cards
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tower of the Magistrate

I'm trying to develop the list of Morgan Burks, which can be found here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43734

The sideboard is for a partially known, largely aggro metagame with a good chance of running into budget, but strong, decks like Burn or Dredge.

I decided not to play counters (Spell Pierce) in the sideboard because I feel they are not enough of a hindrance to combo decks that pack FoW... which, fortunately for us Maverick players, are not often seen today.

I am liking Moorland Haunt as a mid-game KotR target, an insurance policy of sorts against sweepers, although regrettably it is rather slow.

[zulander]

Uh... no.

Unless you run silver bullets like Serenity, Energy Flux, COP:red, Worhsip, etc - you don't bring in Etutor for Burn or Affinity; there is never a situation where you want to bring in Etutor vs Goblins.

You do realize people are putting cop:r in the board now right? E tutor in the affinity matchup isn't bad either if your running things like EE or O. Ring

[maktus]

what do you think of Cursed Scroll in sb against aggro and planes? with or without e. tutor?

[.:saturno:.]

yesterday i have played geist-mav list of M.Burk in a local tournament and is a bomb deck thx to geist but in mirror match with GW mav. i have missed punishing fire combo and i lost the game cuz my oppo do 5 StP in a game.
i have tested elspeth vs mirror but i dont like much, cursed scroll can do a good idea but 1 qasali resolve it to break.
anyone have idea for mirror and aggro match with geist mav?

sorry for my bad english

[Rafa]

yesterday i have played geist-mav list of M.Burk in a local tournament and is a bomb deck thx to geist but in mirror match with GW mav. i have missed punishing fire combo and i lost the game cuz my oppo do 5 StP in a game.
i have tested elspeth vs mirror but i dont like much, cursed scroll can do a good idea but 1 qasali resolve it to break.
anyone have idea for mirror and aggro match with geist mav?

sorry for my bad english

I've also played at a local tournament yesterday and I won a mirror match boarding in the Natural Order package. They usually have no answer for that!

[Koby]

Just wanted to chime in to report a quickie - played in a GPT last nite, went 4-0-2 into Top 8 as first seed (lots of draws...), then got my ass kicked by Reanimator in Top 8.

I'm playing my GW list, recent change has been to add Elspeth to the maindeck.

I boarded in 11 cards against reanimator, and saw only 3 of them in the 2 SB games. *shrug* Thems the breaks.

Current SB plan:
2 E-tutor
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Worship

I brought in everything but Choke and Canonist, but ended up getting Jin-gixatias'd out on turn 2, with FoW backup against my removal. Turn 1 Thoughtseize taking the relevant card didn't help me either.

[sdematt]

Did you get anyone to Worship you?

-Matt

[Neuad]

Played in SCG Cinci with this list

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [ISD] Forest (3)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Savannah
3 [9E] Plains (3)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [DDH] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [V10] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip


Round 1 - Lost to Bant. I couldn't find removal game 1 and he just rolled me with multiple plows. Game 2 I got a vial down and was just able to pump out more guys. Game 3 he found his counters finally and countered some relevant stuff.

Boarding
-3 Teeg
+3 Path

Round 2 - Beat B/W. The deck is bad. Game 1 I kept a risky hand, he thoughtseized my vial on 1 and I got color screwed. Game 2 and 3 he was stuck on 1-2 the whole game and I just rolled him.

Boarding
-3 Teeg
+3 Path

Round 3 - Beat affinity. KGrips, ORings, extra removal got there. He played out his hand and rolled me game 1, game 2 and 3 I was able to get timely removal, and then a sword of light and shadow recurring pridemage to just dominate his board.

Boarding
-3 Teeg
-4 Mother
+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Path

Round 4 - Beat U/W/r Countertop Thopters, a really good friend of mine. Game 1 he got an early counterlock on me, and I got beat pretty handily.

Boarding
-4 Swords"
-1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Bog
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Oblivion Ring

I brought the Bog in knowing my friend was relatively new to the deck, and hoping I could hit a Sword of the Meek. It actually worked when he tapped out to make thopters to block my unprofitable attack, I was able to blow up his sword with a Qasali I vialed in, then play my bog.

Round 5 - Beat affinity again. This deck isn't real is it? Game 1 I was able to stabilize with an Avenger with equipment, and removal for his flyers. Game 2 he showed me Tezz and Etched Champion, lost that game. Game 3 he got mana flooded and I was able to get LNS on an Avenger recurring Pridemages.

Boarding
-3 Teeg
-4 Mother of Runs
+3 paths
+2 ORing
+2 KGrip

Round 6 - Beat burn. Almost stabilized game 1 but it was a turn to late, then stomped him game 2 and 3 with equipment and vials pumping out guys.

Boarding
-3 Serra
-3 Knight
+4 Cannonist
+2 Paths

Round 7 - Lost to RUG. Lost game 1 to a turn 2 blindflip Delver for 19 points.. Won game 2 because their mana base blows and wasteland is real, pumping out guys with vial and drawing 3 wastelands. Game 3 I played like complete shit and walked into a Daze when I had the land in my hand. Nerves of being 2 wins away from top 8 really just killed me.

Boarding
-3 Teeg
+3 Paths

Round 8 - Lost to Mono Blue Control piloted by Chris K. Turn 2 Counterbalance, Turn 3 Trinket Mage for top, turn 4 Needle naming Qasali and then countertop lock in place. Game 2 was turn 1 top, turn 2 balance, turn 3 Shackles, turn 4 shackles. No way to beat that shit.

Boarding
I don't really remember but I'm pretty sure it was
-4 Swords
+2 Oblivion Ring
+2 KGrip

I dropped at 5-3 because I was so pissed at my misplay, and then getting shit stomped by MUC that I didn't want to play round 9 even though I had a slim chance at top 32 with a win.

Overall, while I see the attraction of having Green Sun for more silver bullets, like my Ooze which is just in there to be 'oops I win' and not having to play 3 Teegs, Serra Avenger with equipment is just such a house, and being able to cheat stuff into play left and right with vials is just too broken.

[majikal]

Did you get anyone to Worship you?

[Koby]

Heh, no. never drew it or was in a situation where I needed to tutor for it. It may have been better off as Grizzly Bears.

I played:
Round 1 - Canadian Threshold 2-1
Round 2 - UR Painter - 2-0
Round 3 - Sneak Show - 2-1 (Blood Moon vs Choke, Choke wins :D)
Round 4 - Rbg Goblins 2-1 (Jitte FTW)
Round 5/6 - ID
Top 8 - Reanimator 1-2

Lost to Reanimator's turn 1 Thoughtseize on each game. Game 3 I mulligan'd into:

Savannah, GSZ, Wasteland, StP, PtE, KotR; on the play. Turn 1 Seize takes the Knight, then we joustle for a few turns, and he gets Jin out and counters my mainphase PtE, and I'm out of white mana to remove it. :\

EDIT: 2nd or even 3rd Jitte isn't a bad idea going into the GP. You want to win Jitte wars.

[arcannys]

terrible list ^, your missing the point on this deck.

This is my list:

// Lands
1 [JGC] Maze of Ith
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Savannah
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [CHK] Plains (4)
2 [SOM] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
1 [V10] Sword of Body and Mind
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [NPH] Apostle's Blessing <-- :D (ok, put w/e you want here)

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk/Battreskull
SB: 2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks

People dont realize that the punishing version is terrible, it has an awful mana base, it scoops to a thrun in the mirror, and it cant play thalia (which is 100% wrong if you're playing this sort of deck).

I dont know how ppl keep looking at SCG top8's....

[Neuad]

terrible list ^, your missing the point on this deck.

Who are you talking to?

[majikal]

People dont realize that the punishing version is terrible, it has an awful mana base, it scoops to a thrun in the mirror, and it cant play thalia (which is 100% wrong if you're playing this sort of deck).

Pretty much, this. I did extensive testing with the Punishing Fires version and just found it inferior in the matchups that count. The only advantage I found was that it can run Ajani Vengeant, which is actually amazing. If I were going to splash red, it would be 2 Taigas, max, just for that card and REB in the board.

[Koby]

Pretty much, this. I did extensive testing with the Punishing Fires version and just found it inferior in the matchups that count. The only advantage I found was that it can run Ajani Vengeant, which is actually amazing. If I were going to splash red, it would be 2 Taigas, max, just for that card and REB in the board.

I can corroborate this with my buddy Chuck's experience. He boarded Fires out all tournament long. It's too slow, and the mirror still comes down to Mom / KotR advantage rather than Fires. I also support the red splash for everything but Punishing Fires (that is, REB, Ajani Vengeant, Ancient Grudge, maybe if you're really bold - Huntmaster of the Fells / Ravager of the Fells)

[lavafrogg]

As a loam player I feel that it stretches the mana base too thin for a deck that is actually quite weak to wasteland/manabase disruption. It also ties up a lot of mana that you want to be casting creatures or equipping and smashing face.

The repeated removal for weenies is nice but as time goes on the creatures in legacy get bigger. Tarmogoyf is still a very real threat for maverick decks and fires does not answer the big green goon.

[xfxf]

I'm not experienced with Maverick but I'm getting more fond of the Punishing Fire version the more I see it played. I actually started to think about Maverick as a control deck, or an aggro-control deck at least, because of all the answers it has, its capability for tutoring those answers and creature removal+board control. That's why I'm leaning towards the Punishing Fire version because I feel it gives you reach and more options.

But as I said I'm not really experienced with the deck so why do people think that it makes the deck worse? From the lists I've seen the maindeck differences seem to be -1 Thrun/Terravore/Tarmo, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Sylvan Library, +3 Punishing Fire. Aside from the instability of the mana base it seems like an advantageous replacement for 3 cards..

[MiniLuv]

I'm not experienced with Maverick but I'm getting more fond of the Punishing Fire version the more I see it played. I actually started to think about Maverick as a control deck, or an aggro-control deck at least, because of all the answers it has, its capability for tutoring those answers and creature removal+board control. That's why I'm leaning towards the Punishing Fire version because I feel it gives you reach and more options.

But as I said I'm not really experienced with the deck so why do people think that it makes the deck worse? From the lists I've seen the maindeck differences seem to be -1 Thrun/Terravore/Tarmo, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Sylvan Library, +3 Punishing Fire. Aside from the instability of the mana base it seems like an advantageous replacement for 3 cards..

Punishing lists usually neglect to run the 3rd equipment too.

I think the land instability + potential color screw really needs to be emphasized. There is usually -1 Wasteland, -1 Gaea's Cradle, -1 Basic Forest, -1 Basic Plains, -1 Horizon Canopy -> +2 Taiga, + 3 Grove, +1 Fetchland. The increase in red land count coupled with the decrease in white land count sometimes makes it difficult to cast any of your white spells. Punishing Fire may sometimes be dead in hand too if you have no BoP or Red mana producing lands.

[Fade]

So I took G/W Maverick to SCG Cinci. Here is the list I played:

Lands (20):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Savannah
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy

Creatures (27):
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scryb Ranger
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Terravore
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Silhana Ledgewalker

Spells (13):
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15):
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Choke
2x Path to Exile
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Serenity
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Worship

I showed up on Saturday around 4:30pm to get ready for the Legacy Challenge and try and pick up my fourth Noble Hierarch before it started. Sadly, I couldn’t find one and I wasn’t spending real money on one so I had to shove my lonely Bird back into its sleeve.

First round of the challenge I was paired up with the U/G Show and Tell, Eureka deck and I managed to win in game three due to him having some bad draws.

Second round started and I sit down next to a local I have played before and he was also on G/W Maverick. I took the match in 2 games and we sat there talking about the deck and sideboards. We agree that Silhana can be a house in certain situations.

Round three I got dream crushed by the guy playing Belcher. Game one he was on the draw and went off with 16 goblins. Game two I mulled into a five card hand with forest, noble, thorns, and 2 irrelevant cards. I drop the noble and pass and proceed to get belched on for 90 points……

Last round was u/w and he got crush in 2 games.

I ended up getting 6 packs of Dark Ascension and opened a foil Geralf’s Messenger, Thalia, and a Cage. Still needing the Noble for the next day I found someone to trade me a noble for the stack of cards I had just opened and I had everything I needed for Sunday

First round of Sunday was u/w and he was crushed 2-0.

Second was the burn match up which I won 2-1 with game one being controlled with a jitte and game 3 with both COP: Red and Worship out.

The next three rounds started the downward spiral when I was matched up against zoo (the guy ended up going 6-0 and then 0-3 the last three rounds of the tourney missing top 8), burn, and combo elves. I ended up playing one more round after those and was matched against u/b dreadnaught which I won 2-0.

The weekend was fun even though Sunday was short lived. I knew 4 people who top 8’d and I was happy for all them that made it.

Conclusions: The main board cards are very solid and if I had another tourney this weekend I would register the same 60. I didn’t find Worship to be that great in the sideboard. I ended up boarding it in a lot on Sunday and never found a situation where it was absolutely needed. However, it can catch an opponent off guard and win matches out of nowhere. One problem that I found was the lack of grave hate in my 75. I think I would like an extra crypt in the side to help me feel safer against dredge and reanimator. One other card that was suggested to me and I thought about was Leyline of Sanctity as it makes Burn, Storm, and Belcher decks pretty cold to the threats we are playing. What do you guys think about Leyline maybe as a 2 of?

[majikal]

So I took G/W Maverick to SCG Cinci. Here is the list I played:

Lands (20):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Savannah
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy

Creatures (27):
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scryb Ranger
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Terravore
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Silhana Ledgewalker

Spells (13):
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15):
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Choke
2x Path to Exile
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Serenity
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Worship

I showed up on Saturday around 4:30pm to get ready for the Legacy Challenge and try and pick up my fourth Noble Hierarch before it started. Sadly, I couldn’t find one and I wasn’t spending real money on one so I had to shove my lonely Bird back into its sleeve.

First round of the challenge I was paired up with the U/G Show and Tell, Eureka deck and I managed to win in game three due to him having some bad draws.

Second round started and I sit down next to a local I have played before and he was also on G/W Maverick. I took the match in 2 games and we sat there talking about the deck and sideboards. We agree that Silhana can be a house in certain situations.

Round three I got dream crushed by the guy playing Belcher. Game one he was on the draw and went off with 16 goblins. Game two I mulled into a five card hand with forest, noble, thorns, and 2 irrelevant cards. I drop the noble and pass and proceed to get belched on for 90 points……

Last round was u/w and he got crush in 2 games.

I ended up getting 6 packs of Dark Ascension and opened a foil Geralf’s Messenger, Thalia, and a Cage. Still needing the Noble for the next day I found someone to trade me a noble for the stack of cards I had just opened and I had everything I needed for Sunday

First round of Sunday was u/w and he was crushed 2-0.

Second was the burn match up which I won 2-1 with game one being controlled with a jitte and game 3 with both COP: Red and Worship out.

The next three rounds started the downward spiral when I was matched up against zoo (the guy ended up going 6-0 and then 0-3 the last three rounds of the tourney missing top 8), burn, and combo elves. I ended up playing one more round after those and was matched against u/b dreadnaught which I won 2-0.

The weekend was fun even though Sunday was short lived. I knew 4 people who top 8’d and I was happy for all them that made it.

Conclusions: The main board cards are very solid and if I had another tourney this weekend I would register the same 60. I didn’t find Worship to be that great in the sideboard. I ended up boarding it in a lot on Sunday and never found a situation where it was absolutely needed. However, it can catch an opponent off guard and win matches out of nowhere. One problem that I found was the lack of grave hate in my 75. I think I would like an extra crypt in the side to help me feel safer against dredge and reanimator. One other card that was suggested to me and I thought about was Leyline of Sanctity as it makes Burn, Storm, and Belcher decks pretty cold to the threats we are playing. What do you guys think about Leyline maybe as a 2 of?
The problem I'm seeing with your sideboard is that there is too much redundant hate. Worship is a catch-all so you don't have to run CoP:Red for Burn and Serenity for Affinity. Those two slots would be better off as Surgical Extraction, I think, or at least something less narrow so you have more options against other decks.

Here's what I've got atm:
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Choke/Armageddon (varies from week to week)
1x Stony Silence (because I fear Storm combo will rise up again, and it's also useful against PainterStone, Affinity, and Lands* and has performed better than Thorn in my experience)
1x Worship
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Grafdigger's Cage (because fuck Dredge)
2x Path to Exile
1x Sword of Fire and Ice/Life from the Loam/Terravore/Maze of Ith/Garruk/Faerie Macabre/whatever

*as it turns out, keeping lands off of Engineered Explosives while simultaneously shutting off Mox Diamond is actually really good.

[arcannys]

Who are you talking to?
I'm talking to you.
I dont mean to offend you, but you're missing the point on this deck. You have a lot of do-nothing creatures that dont fit at all on this deck's gameplan.
If you chose to run aether vial (GW maverick), you need to run weathered wayfarer, to capitalize on land disruption. Also, not playing scryb ranger is wrong (not that wrong if you play avenger and tarmogoyf, but this is wrong in the first place so...). If you chose to run the zenith version (GW zenit), you need to cut gaddock down to 0-1, and run 4 zenit.
Not playing thalia is plain wrong, period.
This deck is not looking for a fast clock (tarmogoyf, avenger), this deck is looking for a powerful endgame. If you run creatures like goyf or avenger, you're missing a lot of the deck's potencial (on board tricks, better land denial, etc...).

Maybe if you wanna run cards liek those, you'd like to take a look at death and taxes.

[Asthereal]

Personally, I cannot see why people do NOT see the point in the Punishing Fire combo. Slow? Yes, very, but since this deck wants to win mid/lategame anyway, why should that matter?

The Punishing Fire combo does the following: it kills Moms, Mana guys, Lavamancers, Delvers, SFMs. If you expect RUG Delver and Stoneblade a lot, the combo is very strong. In the mirror it's not that great, but definitely still useable. If you expect a lot of Zoo and Storm, don't play it.

[arcannys]

Personally, I cannot see why people do NOT see the point in the Punishing Fire combo. Slow? Yes, very, but since this deck wants to win mid/lategame anyway, why should that matter?

The Punishing Fire combo does the following: it kills Moms, Mana guys, Lavamancers, Delvers, SFMs. If you expect RUG Delver and Stoneblade a lot, the combo is very strong. In the mirror it's not that great, but definitely still useable. If you expect a lot of Zoo and Storm, don't play it.

I def, agree that it gives an edge over this particular decks.
But what psses me off is the fact that ppl think it's the only viable version of the deck because it won the last SCG/w.e.

anyway, i think the weakness it provides to the mana base, and the cuts you have to do in order to fit in the PF package, just to improve our already good MU is not worth it.

[Neuad]

I'm talking to you.
I dont mean to offend you, but you're missing the point on this deck. You have a lot of do-nothing creatures that dont fit at all on this deck's gameplan.
If you chose to run aether vial (GW maverick), you need to run weathered wayfarer, to capitalize on land disruption. Also, not playing scryb ranger is wrong (not that wrong if you play avenger and tarmogoyf, but this is wrong in the first place so...). If you chose to run the zenith version (GW zenit), you need to cut gaddock down to 0-1, and run 4 zenit.
Not playing thalia is plain wrong, period.
This deck is not looking for a fast clock (tarmogoyf, avenger), this deck is looking for a powerful endgame. If you run creatures like goyf or avenger, you're missing a lot of the deck's potencial (on board tricks, better land denial, etc...).

Maybe if you wanna run cards liek those, you'd like to take a look at death and taxes.

Well I happen to think playing things like Thalia, Gaea's Cradle, Scryb Ranger, Sword of Body and Mind, and Maze of Ith are all awful, but hey to each their own. It's my take on the deck and I do quite well with it.

[Fade]

The problem I'm seeing with your sideboard is that there is too much redundant hate. Worship is a catch-all so you don't have to run CoP:Red for Burn and Serenity for Affinity. Those two slots would be better off as Surgical Extraction, I think, or at least something less narrow so you have more options against other decks.

Here's what I've got atm:
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Choke/Armageddon (varies from week to week)
1x Stony Silence (because I fear Storm combo will rise up again, and it's also useful against PainterStone, Affinity, and Lands* and has performed better than Thorn in my experience)
1x Worship
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Grafdigger's Cage (because fuck Dredge)
2x Path to Exile
1x Sword of Fire and Ice/Life from the Loam/Terravore/Maze of Ith/Garruk/Faerie Macabre/whatever

*as it turns out, keeping lands off of Engineered Explosives while simultaneously shutting off Mox Diamond is actually really good.

To tell you the truth, I found that COP: Red was more useful than Worship. COP: Red is not dead in the early game or when you get stuck on lands which occasionally happens in a deck with only 21 lands. I think instead of surgical extractions the deck could use purify the grave. Yes, it's not free but you get to use it twice. I was thinking I should have cut the serenity for stony silence but I thought enchantress was going to be a factor in the meta because of all the burn. I think I could get away with cutting the thorn of amethyst for something else.

As for the Burn match-up I played it twice and went 1-1. The first went to game 3 and I was saved in the first match up due to having noble into stoneforge into turn 3 jitte swing. The second game I had mulled to five and couldn't find anything and the third game was locked up with Worship and COP: Red.

Next match went 0-2. Game 1 featured me getting jitte with counters on turn 3 but he had started off with 2 goblin guides and had exactly enough damage left in his hand for the win. One more swing with jitte and I would have been fine. Game 2 was close as he started off with goblin guide and I went turn 1 noble, turn 2 tutor for COP: Red, land that on turn 3. Even with all the swings from Goblin guide I never found a fourth land until late in the game. When he had exactly the right cards to burn me out. In respect to this game, if I had Worship only in the board I would have been screwed out of my mind where COP:Red at least gave me enough game to stall him down to 5 life with the win if he didn't kill me the turn that he did.

[UnsungHero]

Answers I would run for dealing with red/burn. All have converted cost of 1 or 2. And can be found via Enlightened Tutor

Circle Of Protection:Red Protects from direct burn spells, can let damage go through and just use mana to prevent damage. Even if they use some spells to kill creatures, you can stablilize your board.

Absolute Law Protects creatures from being burned, can block creatures like Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer with out having to lose anything. Direct Burn spells however can still go through, so you need to be aggressive.

Warmth Bolt now does 1 essentially. Doesn't help with being attacked a bunch however. Sulfuric Vortex just laughs anyways though.

Aegis of Honor Cute card, but I feel that Circle Of Protection:Red is better because while Aeigis does the damge back, it doesn't protect you from direct damage from creatures, and Lavamancer.

Worship isn't very good because it costs 4. You want to have something early and load up the board with threats fast. By the time worship can even do anything you could already taken quite a bit of damage. Burn is quick, they run out of gas, but by getting some protection on the board, it weakens them a lot.

[arcannys]

Well I happen to think playing things like Thalia, Gaea's Cradle, Scryb Ranger, Sword of Body and Mind, and Maze of Ith are all awful, but hey to each their own. It's my take on the deck and I do quite well with it.

Dude, no offence but if you think your list is great, why do you post it here in the first place. What's the point on posting something if you can't whitstand criticism?

Well, tha fact that you dont like any of those cards makes me ask you why are you running KotR? why only 3 tarmogoyf (it'll be better than KotR all the time in your list)?
I'm 95% sure that you havent played with thalia at all.

When replying to this post, can you give any argument besides, my list is great because i say so? Why are you running those cards, whats the thought behind your build?

Thanks.

[QQQ]

If you want to run a two-mana, tutorable target that beats both Burn, and the Red Delver decks, run Energy Storm.

[Koby]

If you want to run a two-mana, tutorable target that beats both Burn, and the Red Delver decks, run Energy Storm.

LOL nice find. Cumulative Upkeep is rough however...

[sdematt]

Run it out once you have a few creatures, then get your Cradle. But, your Mindcensors don't untap. How will you ever alpha-strike now? :frown:

-Matt

[Koby]

In my testing, the Tempo matchup is either a quick blowout due to unanswered Delver (we're not the only ones having this problem), or it goes into late game where Maverick excels. Trying to be cute and boarding into Etutor is not going to help in that regard; but putting in Path to Exile would.

<Aside> Green always has had problems with flyers, this isn't any different </aside>

[Fade]

Answers I would run for dealing with red/burn. All have converted cost of 1 or 2. And can be found via Enlightened Tutor

Circle Of Protection:Red Protects from direct burn spells, can let damage go through and just use mana to prevent damage. Even if they use some spells to kill creatures, you can stablilize your board.

Absolute Law Protects creatures from being burned, can block creatures like Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer with out having to lose anything. Direct Burn spells however can still go through, so you need to be aggressive.

Warmth Bolt now does 1 essentially. Doesn't help with being attacked a bunch however. Sulfuric Vortex just laughs anyways though.

Aegis of Honor Cute card, but I feel that Circle Of Protection:Red is better because while Aeigis does the damge back, it doesn't protect you from direct damage from creatures, and Lavamancer.

Worship isn't very good because it costs 4. You want to have something early and load up the board with threats fast. By the time worship can even do anything you could already taken quite a bit of damage. Burn is quick, they run out of gas, but by getting some protection on the board, it weakens them a lot.

If burn is playing a big role I would run a COP: Red and a Warmth with two tutors for the sideboard plan. I'm pretty sure we leave in stoneforge with jitte, batterskull, and SOLaS even though the smash to smithereens can be a blowout.

I looked at Absolute Law and decided against it since I had a game while playtesting go turn 1 Rift bolt, turn 2 chain and lava spike, turn 3 lava spike lightning bolt lightning bolt.... 18 damage on turn three where Absolute Law would not be able to help any.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Run it out once you have a few creatures, then get your Cradle. But, your Mindcensors don't untap. How will you ever alpha-strike now? :frown:

-Matt

Don't run Mindcensor?

Birds: 2

Stone: 1

[majikal]

To tell you the truth, I found that COP: Red was more useful than Worship. COP: Red is not dead in the early game or when you get stuck on lands which occasionally happens in a deck with only 21 lands. I think instead of surgical extractions the deck could use purify the grave. Yes, it's not free but you get to use it twice. I was thinking I should have cut the serenity for stony silence but I thought enchantress was going to be a factor in the meta because of all the burn. I think I could get away with cutting the thorn of amethyst for something else.

As for the Burn match-up I played it twice and went 1-1. The first went to game 3 and I was saved in the first match up due to having noble into stoneforge into turn 3 jitte swing. The second game I had mulled to five and couldn't find anything and the third game was locked up with Worship and COP: Red.

Next match went 0-2. Game 1 featured me getting jitte with counters on turn 3 but he had started off with 2 goblin guides and had exactly enough damage left in his hand for the win. One more swing with jitte and I would have been fine. Game 2 was close as he started off with goblin guide and I went turn 1 noble, turn 2 tutor for COP: Red, land that on turn 3. Even with all the swings from Goblin guide I never found a fourth land until late in the game. When he had exactly the right cards to burn me out. In respect to this game, if I had Worship only in the board I would have been screwed out of my mind where COP:Red at least gave me enough game to stall him down to 5 life with the win if he didn't kill me the turn that he did.
I can see CoP being better in your list since you run so few lands. I personally wouldn't go below 22, but that's just me. Each their own I guess.

[Fade]

I can see CoP being better in your list since you run so few lands. I personally wouldn't go below 22, but that's just me. Each their own I guess.

I'm running 21 lands, I just put the Dryad Arbor in with the creatures, but I guess running the Maze of Ith main makes it 20 lands anyways.

[Koby]

I'm running 21 lands, I just put the Dryad Arbor in with the creatures, but I guess running the Maze of Ith main makes it 20 lands anyways.

majikal and I are both running 22 including Dryad Arbor, with no Maze of Ith. The important point is having a mana producing land on turn 1, which Maze and Dryad Arbor don't provide.

[Fade]

majikal and I are both running 22 including Dryad Arbor, with no Maze of Ith. The important point is having a mana producing land on turn 1, which Maze and Dryad Arbor don't provide.

I was thinking of throwing in another Horizon Canopy but I couldn't find it when I got to the tourney site. I notice you guys run the Maze of Ith side. When it comes in do you normally side out a land or a spell?

[Koby]

Spell. The only matchup where I board out lands are against decks that either have no legends (RUG Tempo) or have all basics (Burn), in which case I board out Karakas and Wasteland respectively, and never more than 2 in the latter case.

[maktus]

I was thinking of using 1x mentor of the meek ​​in the main and 1x sb. it can provide draws in midgame (good against attrition) and has synergy with scryb ranger + dryad arbor. on my list I also use three mirran crusader.

what do you think?

[Neuad]

Dude, no offence but if you think your list is great, why do you post it here in the first place. What's the point on posting something if you can't whitstand criticism?

Well, tha fact that you dont like any of those cards makes me ask you why are you running KotR? why only 3 tarmogoyf (it'll be better than KotR all the time in your list)?
I'm 95% sure that you havent played with thalia at all.

When replying to this post, can you give any argument besides, my list is great because i say so? Why are you running those cards, whats the thought behind your build?

Thanks.

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [ISD] Forest (3)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Savannah
3 [9E] Plains (3)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [DDH] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [V10] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip

My reason for running Aether Vial over GSZ started out as I simply owned Vials, and didn't own GSZ or Hierarchs. A friend of mine played this list as a 'combo killer' until GSZ came out, than he switched.

The mana base is quite self explanatory, I may cut 1 Flooded Strand for 1 more Canopy, origonally there were 4 in the deck and I just took too much damage off them.

3 Goyfs because Scavenging Ooze is in there as Goyf 4, mainly just because when I draw him he's good.

3 Teegs because almost every game you want to see him, and he has a massive target on his back.

3 Stoneforges could probably go up to 4, but I really don't know where to make room so I just leave it as is.

Equip package should be pretty self explanatory, Jitte is awesome vs creature decks or burn, Light and Shadow recurs anything they counter or kill, fire and ice shocks and draws cards.

Serra Avenger is the main reason I like this deck over GSZ, she is just such a complete house and wrecks so many people. Not many decks can deal with a Serra Avenger with any equip on it.

Reasons I don't like the cards I listed.

Cradle requires you to have creatures on board to be any good. While this almost is never a problem, there will be times you just have a 0 mana land, and that isn't worth it to me. I also don't need as much mana as GSZ version's due to vials.

Scryb Ranger, again requires a utility creature to be anything more then a 1/1 Flyer. I like cards in my deck to do something, not rely on other cards to be good.

Sword of Body and Mind. This is probably the worst sword in my opinion, you would be much better off running Feast and Famine if you need the pro green, atleast then you can tap out to GSZ and then still have mana to Swords/move equipment/whatever

Thalia, you told me I should be playing death and taxes if this is the type of build I like and I view Thalia as death and taxes bread and butter. Why would you play a card that slows down the engine running your deck? She might be sideboard options, but is not worth running in the main.

[KobeBryan]

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [ISD] Forest (3)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Savannah
3 [9E] Plains (3)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [DDH] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [V10] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip

My reason for running Aether Vial over GSZ started out as I simply owned Vials, and didn't own GSZ or Hierarchs. A friend of mine played this list as a 'combo killer' until GSZ came out, than he switched.

The mana base is quite self explanatory, I may cut 1 Flooded Strand for 1 more Canopy, origonally there were 4 in the deck and I just took too much damage off them.

3 Goyfs because Scavenging Ooze is in there as Goyf 4, mainly just because when I draw him he's good.

3 Teegs because almost every game you want to see him, and he has a massive target on his back.

3 Stoneforges could probably go up to 4, but I really don't know where to make room so I just leave it as is.

Equip package should be pretty self explanatory, Jitte is awesome vs creature decks or burn, Light and Shadow recurs anything they counter or kill, fire and ice shocks and draws cards.

Serra Avenger is the main reason I like this deck over GSZ, she is just such a complete house and wrecks so many people. Not many decks can deal with a Serra Avenger with any equip on it.

Reasons I don't like the cards I listed.

Cradle requires you to have creatures on board to be any good. While this almost is never a problem, there will be times you just have a 0 mana land, and that isn't worth it to me. I also don't need as much mana as GSZ version's due to vials.

Scryb Ranger, again requires a utility creature to be anything more then a 1/1 Flyer. I like cards in my deck to do something, not rely on other cards to be good.

Sword of Body and Mind. This is probably the worst sword in my opinion, you would be much better off running Feast and Famine if you need the pro green, atleast then you can tap out to GSZ and then still have mana to Swords/move equipment/whatever

Thalia, you told me I should be playing death and taxes if this is the type of build I like and I view Thalia as death and taxes bread and butter. Why would you play a card that slows down the engine running your deck? She might be sideboard options, but is not worth running in the main.

I'm sorry, but this list is probaly one of the worst lists I have ever seen.

3 gaddock teegs maindeck? What if you aren't fighting any combo decks? It goes to waste. One scavenging ooze without gsz??

Dryad arbor in MD but no GSZ? So you drop a dryad arbor turn 1 and it does nothing bcause of summoning sickness?

Scryb ranger, the only flyer in the deck, is not useful? In a deck with 4 MOMs, 4 knights of the reliquary, a dryad arbor. and equipment to boot.

4 vials to slow you down?

sorry, but this deck seriously needs tweaking.

I'm sure it can pull out victories just by swarming alone, but its not a good synergistic deck.

[Neuad]

Subtle flames are still flames. Removed. I understand your frustration, but keep it civil, please. -zilla

Gaddock Teeg only good against combo? Yeah sure. Lets name cards he shuts down, shall we?

Moat.
Humility.
Jace.
Elspeth.
Wrath of God.
Force of Will.
Green Sun Zenith
Engineered Explosives
Fireblast

Should we keep going?

If a single Dryad Arbor is my only land, chances are I kept a terrible hand and should be punished for not having a turn 1 play. On the other hand, I can fetch it out end of turn. I can vial it in for even more excel after a turn 1 vial, and I like it better then Treetop Village.

4 vials to 'slow me down'? If a vial resolves turn 1, chances are it will do 10x as much for me as your Turn 1 GSZ x = 0 will do for you. Turn 2 Knight? Cool, I have an uncounterable turn 3 any 2 drop in my deck.

Yes, Scryb Ranger is a piece of shit card that relies on other cards to be good, by itself you have a crappy 1/1 flier. Thanks but I'll take my 3/3 Vigilance any day.

Oh and I've mentioned now twice that the single Scav Ooze is in there as a 'oh cool I drew it' thing, simply because it's a cool card.

[Ziveeman]

Challenged? Prove them wrong. Actions speak louder than words anyway - Post good results with your list. Unfortunately with a huge card pool it's tough to find the right cards and obviously people will think that the cards they have found will be the right ones. Naturally, people get defensive when it's implied that their choices are wrong. It's not the Source, it's human nature.

Look at the criticism that Adam Prosak got for his Dredge list (not even on the Source alone, there are many comments on his deck tech at SCG), but he won the whole thing - he must have done something right. And these people can bitch all they want, but in the end, he is the SCG: Cinci Legacy champion. The ball is in your court.

[Koby]

verbal diarrhea

Please stop posting like this. Vial lists are just as viable, except not as heavily played. You also haven't read the list, or understand the approach.

@ Neuad
I can't provide much feedback on your list, since I last played Death & Taxes about 18 months ago. I'm sure it's consistent, but the problem I've had with D&T was its lack of flexibility in the mid-game. D&T has inevitability due to Mangara, which I feel would be the best approach here. How has the testing with the Mangara engine gone for you? I would also consider playing Canonist maindeck rather than Teeg, as it provides the same taxing on combo decks, while also shutting down Snapcaster decks. Considering that your deck is 80% lands and creatures, Canonist doesn't effect your game plan.

I would also consider having more options in the 1cc and 3cc slots. The deck is heavily squeezed at the 2 drops. Burrenton Forge-Tender, Benevolent Bodyguard, and Sylvan Safekeeper are all good protective options that would fit for this deck.

[Neuad]

Challenged? Prove them wrong. Actions speak louder than words anyway - Post good results with your list. Unfortunately with a huge card pool it's tough to find the right cards and obviously people will think that the cards they have found will be the right ones. Naturally, people get defensive when it's implied that their choices are wrong. It's not the Source, it's human nature.


All I was trying to do was share a different take on G/W Aggro and a little tournament report of me doing decent, only losing to my play mistake and then going on tilt. I defended my reasons for my card choices, and explained why I feel other cards aren't good enough.

I do wish I could run both GSZ and Vial, as I would like to run more silver bullets, or be able to find my Scav Ooze more often, but I can't and I feel Aether Vial is to broken to not play.


I'm doing my best to prove myself, but my best finish so far is top 20 at SCG Charlotte, losing to Reanimator and Slivers, while beating Hive Mind twice, and a slew of other decks I don't remember.

[KobeBryan]

Please stop posting like this. Vial lists are just as viable, except not as heavily played. You also haven't read the list, or understand the approach.

@ Neuad
I can't provide much feedback on your list, since I last played Death & Taxes about 18 months ago. I'm sure it's consistent, but the problem I've had with D&T was its lack of flexibility in the mid-game. D&T has inevitability due to Mangara, which I feel would be the best approach here. How has the testing with the Mangara engine gone for you? I would also consider playing Canonist maindeck rather than Teeg, as it provides the same taxing on combo decks, while also shutting down Snapcaster decks. Considering that your deck is 80% lands and creatures, Canonist doesn't effect your game plan.

Never said it wasn't viable. In legacy, every deck can beat every other deck. The power of vial decks lies with the ability to draw cards. Thats how it always was. Goblins and merfolk. Draw and throw out several creatures all on one turn.

of course there are the occasion of vialing in a guy to catch people by surprise either to block or to stop a combo from going off but you get the idea.

Green and white does not offer the power of drawing cards as fast as goblins and merfolk, thats the main problem with a vial based deck in green and white. When you are out of steam, you are out of steam. Then you gotta wait several turns to click the vial to turn 2-3.

Also the power of dryad arbor relies on gsz to power out the turn 3 play on turn 2, but you have vial for that, fine. I'm just saying with vial-based decks you will have dead cards when you draw it past turn 3. On the other hand, I've never been disappointed when drawing a gsz, even as late as turn 10 or 15.

When playing merfolk, I hate drawing vials after turn three especially when I have one already in play.

But at least with merfolk, you have standstills and silvergil to get more cards in your hand.

[iScare]

I think everyone needs to sit back and relax. To each their own. If he likes to play XYZ cards, that's his choice. It's his deck, he can put whatever he wants. He posted his decklist to show you his idea, not to be attacked by other people.

Maybe he plays and knows his deck well enough that it'll win. We shouldn't have to attack anyone for just putting their ideas on this forum. We should encourage it.

[majikal]

I think everyone needs to sit back and relax. To each their own. If he likes to play XYZ cards, that's his choice. It's his deck, he can put whatever he wants. He posted his decklist to show you his idea, not to be attacked by other people.

Maybe he plays and knows his deck well enough that it'll win. We shouldn't have to attack anyone for just putting their ideas on this forum. We should encourage it.
Your ideas are alien and wrong, and I hate you.

[iScare]

Your ideas are alien and wrong, and I hate you.

Happy Valentine's day.. i love you too.

[KobeBryan]

Your ideas are alien and wrong, and I hate you.

How can you hate someone who doesn't use a jitte with 2 counters to shoot an etched champion.

I'd love to have an opponent like that.

[Neuad]

@ Neuad
I can't provide much feedback on your list, since I last played Death & Taxes about 18 months ago. I'm sure it's consistent, but the problem I've had with D&T was its lack of flexibility in the mid-game. D&T has inevitability due to Mangara, which I feel would be the best approach here. How has the testing with the Mangara engine gone for you? I would also consider playing Canonist maindeck rather than Teeg, as it provides the same taxing on combo decks, while also shutting down Snapcaster decks. Considering that your deck is 80% lands and creatures, Canonist doesn't effect your game plan.

I would also consider having more options in the 1cc and 3cc slots. The deck is heavily squeezed at the 2 drops. Burrenton Forge-Tender, Benevolent Bodyguard, and Sylvan Safekeeper are all good protective options that would fit for this deck.

I like to stay at 2 simply to abuse vial to the best of it's ability, I don't like bumping it up to 3 unless I have 2 knight's in my hand, I usually just have a Teeg out and hard cast it.

As far as Canonist in the main goes, I'll be honest I never even thought of that because of how happy I am with Teeg in the main.

Putting more 1 and 3 drops in the deck could be a direction you could take it, but there is no room in the deck for it, I wouldn't even know what to cut.

I get that vial is a dead draw late game, while GSZ isn't and that's really my only problem with the deck. I never really have issues with card draw because of Horizon Canopys, Sylvan Library, Sword of Fire and Ice, or just winning the game early on the back of my opening hand/a few top decks.

[majikal]

Happy Valentine's day.. i love you too.
D'awwwww make-up sex?

[majikal]

Spell. The only matchup where I board out lands are against decks that either have no legends (RUG Tempo) or have all basics (Burn), in which case I board out Karakas and Wasteland respectively, and never more than 2 in the latter case.
I generally don't board out Wasteland against Burn. While it's true you can't hit their lands with it, assuming you go for basics early and only play duals from your hand or after you have your basics in play, keeping a couple of untapped Wastelands makes PoP pretty useless.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And now I remember why I avoid the source, god you guys are challenged.

Gaddock Teeg only good against combo? Yeah sure. Lets name cards he shuts down, shall we?

Moat.
Humility.
Jace.
Elspeth.
Wrath of God.
Force of Will.
Green Sun Zenith
Engineered Explosives
Fireblast

Should we keep going?

Force of Will isn't a particularly bad card for Maverick to deal with due to its redundancy of threats (at least in my build, I'm not running a lot of useless 1/1s), so really the only ones of these that are commonly played and not cards you want to play yourself are Jace and Wrath out of the board in Blade Control. In which case you should just keep Teeg in th board.

I mean obviously this is going to be a meta dependent selection but I don't think there are too many Humility decks running around. The problem in Blade control is infinite StPs anyway which Teeg doesn't really deal with well.


If a single Dryad Arbor is my only land, chances are I kept a terrible hand and should be punished for not having a turn 1 play. On the other hand, I can fetch it out end of turn. I can vial it in for even more excel after a turn 1 vial, and I like it better then Treetop Village.

Yeah I mean I didn't know anyone didn't run the Dryad Arbor.


4 vials to 'slow me down'? If a vial resolves turn 1, chances are it will do 10x as much for me as your Turn 1 GSZ x = 0 will do for you. Turn 2 Knight? Cool, I have an uncounterable turn 3 any 2 drop in my deck.

The problem isn't really getting Knights countered, in my experience, it's getting them StPd, where Vial is less than helpful since it dilutes the gas in your deck.


Yes, Scryb Ranger is a piece of shit card that relies on other cards to be good, by itself you have a crappy 1/1 flier. Thanks but I'll take my 3/3 Vigilance any day.

I mean I would agree with this at least, Scryb Ranger is super bad.


Oh and I've mentioned now twice that the single Scav Ooze is in there as a 'oh cool I drew it' thing, simply because it's a cool card.

See I hate seeing things like this.

People, to win a major tournament you already have to get really lucky. Why are people straining that further by adding one ofs and hoping to draw into them at the right time? Do people really not understand how important consistency is?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think everyone needs to sit back and relax. To each their own. If he likes to play XYZ cards, that's his choice. It's his deck, he can put whatever he wants. He posted his decklist to show you his idea, not to be attacked by other people.

Maybe he plays and knows his deck well enough that it'll win. We shouldn't have to attack anyone for just putting their ideas on this forum. We should encourage it.

No. Ideas should be attacked. This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

It doesn't do anyone any favors to hold off on criticizing an idea because you're afraid of hurting their feelings.

[Neuad]

People, to win a major tournament you already have to get really lucky. Why are people straining that further by adding one ofs and hoping to draw into them at the right time? Do people really not understand how important consistency is?

I agree with this and he's not in there to 'draw at the right time', he's in there just because I like drawing it occasionally, and never don't like drawing it.

[Koby]

I agree with this and he's not in there to 'draw at the right time', he's in there just because I like drawing it occasionally, and never don't like drawing it.

I read this as saying "I wish I had 3 more in my deck".

[majikal]

I read this as saying "I wish I had 3 more in my deck".
Personally, I play six.

[Asthereal]

How come no one here is ever playing Tarmogoyf?

Seriously, I have played Mav at three tourneys and I always encounter at least several times per tourney the situation in which you have three mana to spend, a Green Sun's Zenith on hand, and would like to fetch up a nice big beater. Ooze often just doesn´t do (no guys in the grave, Grizzly Bear is sort of boring), so Goyf is the man you want.

I know the argument that Mav itself only gets land, some instants and creatures in the grave, so it doesn't support Goyf very well, but the opponent always helps. Everyone plays instants, most play quite a few sorceries, and you need space for only one Goyf anyway.

Second point I would like to make:
Four Swords to Powshares effects is not enough. You don't want to lose against a flipped Delver, and you never want to be able to lose against Merfolk. We need more removal than just 4 StP. That's why I advocate Punishing Fire OR additional Path to Exiles both main and side. In the GW version I play 5-6 exile effects main and 1-2 side, and I just love them. It takes up a lot of space, but it's definitely worth it.

[arcannys]

Jesus christ....
85 pages in his thread and we are still asking about tarmogoyf?
I hate to do this, but i'll explain how this deck works again... maybe you get something out of this.

I'll start by why this thread is inconrrectly named Gw maverick.
Gw maverick was a deck designed by a spanish player called maverick. It originaly played 4 vial and 3-4 weathered wayfarer to abuse the mana denial plan.
The modern versions dont run neither vial or wayfarer, in favour of green sun's zenith, which provides a greater consitency and a batter late-game plan.

What this decks tries to do is to play a bomb in every turn, and cards that will magnify those bomb's power.

Vanila cards like tarmogoyf and serra avenger, are just that, stupid beaters. Those cards have never been good by themself, they need some kind of build around me aproach, such as mana denial or tempo plan (see D&T and RUG delver decks).

Goyf does absolutely nothing in this deck(the original maverick lists didnt run it either), you want you cards to do something at anypoint of the game, thats why cards such as aether vial, tarmogoyf, serra avenger are awful. You want your deck to give you a game winning thread every time you draw.
The consistency boost that zenith provides to this deck is so HUGE, that we are already talking about the best deck in the format.

The new adition to this deck, thalia, has pushed this deck even furder in the current metagame, making this deck even decent against combo decks G1, whith thalias and the maindeck gaddock teeg.

Green sun's zenith allows us to run all the one-ofs we want in the maindeck without diluting our deck and making it inconsistent.

Whith that said, this is the list of the best creature in the deck in order:
1- mother of runes (this is the best creature in the deck hands down, perdiod. End of dicussion.)
2- scryb ranger (The fact that a lot of you guys dont play this card makes me think you dont know absolutly nothing about this deck. It makes all the other cards in this deck 100 times better, its the glue that hold the whole deck together, is a formidable beater and is the best card against jace).
3-Kotr/stoneforge/thalia/sylvan library (great game winning threads that take over thegame if are not dealt with).
4-one-ofs (are most of the times game winning threads on their own too)

I've top8'd 7-round tournaments without zenithing for KotR any single time. Most of the times you want a scryb rager, or one for the one-ofs (mother of runes + scryb ranger is a turn 2 kill, against most non-combo decks).

So there you go, stop aking about tarmogoyf, serra avenger and crap like that. This is a very skill-intensive deck, so it's easy for weak players to not see the real potential of the cards, and the reason for them being there in the first place.
Trust me, every time i see someone play a tarmogoyf against me in the mirror i am 100% sure i'm gonna win. That's a fact, and if you know something about how this deck plays out when played correctly you won't argue about that.
I'm not claiming that my list is the best there is, but the actual truth is that the list is very tight, most of the slots are locked up. So stop trying to destroy this deck by adding crap like tarmogoyf and such.

Peace..

[Sonntag]

How come no one here is ever playing Tarmogoyf?
Second point I would like to make:
Four Swords to Powshares effects is not enough. You don't want to lose against a flipped Delver, and you never want to be able to lose against Merfolk. We need more removal than just 4 StP. That's why I advocate Punishing Fire OR additional Path to Exiles both main and side. In the GW version I play 5-6 exile effects main and 1-2 side, and I just love them. It takes up a lot of space, but it's definitely worth it.

I tend to agree with this, 4 StP are seldom enough. I usually have at least 2 PtE in the board as well, but I was thinking about perhaps adding a few Gut Shots maindeck instead, what do people think about that?

Gut Shots should take care of the most problematic creatures we face imho. PtE is perhaps a better card, but Gut Shot can be cast without mana, and could at some point also win us a game by itself, also this would obviously free up some much needed space in the board.

[maktus]

I tend to agree with this, 4 StP are seldom enough. I usually have at least 2 PtE in the board as well, but I was thinking about perhaps adding a few Gut Shots maindeck instead, what do people think about that?

Gut Shots should take care of the most problematic creatures we face imho. PtE is perhaps a better card, but Gut Shot can be cast without mana, and could at some point also win us a game by itself, also this would obviously free up some much needed space in the board.

Giltspire Avenger would be a viable option for removal? tutorable and multi-kill with scryb ranger

[Asthereal]

In turn, you seem to misunderstand Goyf.
Vanilla? Sure. Does it do anything? Not in the cutesy way you refer to. But it does one very relevant thing in Magic: it kills your opponent in 4-5 turns. With Hierarchs and Pridemages flying around, your Goyf is also better than your opponent's.

A friend of mine called me a lousy player because I didn't play four Goyfs while I could have, and you are calling me a lousy player because I don't get why we shouldn't include just one. Who is right? You probably think you are. That friend of mine will be sure of his version. I'm pretty confidant the best way is the middle way.

The only time I ever went top-8 in a big tourney with Mav is when I played two Goyfs. They were awesome. Not because they did the skill-intensive stuff you seem to like so much, but just because they caused my opponents to die quickly. Right now there is just too much I want to include in the deck to be able to play two, but I always found space for one, just for the situation I described in the last post.

About your list:
I looked it up and have a few comments.

The Scryb Ranger: Great beater? Don't make me laugh. It's a 1/1 for 2. You play it for utility, not to kill opponents with. It also cannot beat an active Jace, since it hits Jace for 1 a turn and Jace goes +2 each turn. It's great with Mother of Runes, but only against fair decks. And against fair decks you already have an edge. Against decks that go turn 2 Tendrils for 22 or turn 2 Emrakul, it does a grand total of nothing and gets boarded out. Perhaps you should main deck one and sideboard the second?

Lands: You play almost no proper lands. You have 4 fetches with 3 basics. On average you will draw one of these 7 in the first 9 cards, leaving you very Wasteland-vulnerable. Scryb Ranger can protect you from Wasteland, but only if it lands, and that dude dies to every removal spell available in Legacy. I believe the mana base should be more stable to compete in the current Stifle/Waste infested meta.

[arcannys]

In turn, you seem to misunderstand Goyf.
Vanilla? Sure. Does it do anything? Not in the cutesy way you refer to. But it does one very relevant thing in Magic: it kills your opponent in 4-5 turns. With Hierarchs and Pridemages flying around, your Goyf is also better than your opponent's.

A friend of mine called me a lousy player because I didn't play four Goyfs while I could have, and you are calling me a lousy player because I don't get why we shouldn't include just one. Who is right? You probably think you are. That friend of mine will be sure of his version. I'm pretty confidant the best way is the middle way.

The only time I ever went top-8 in a big tourney with Mav is when I played two Goyfs. They were awesome. Not because they did the skill-intensive stuff you seem to like so much, but just because they caused my opponents to die quickly. Right now there is just too much I want to include in the deck to be able to play two, but I always found space for one, just for the situation I described in the last post.

About your list:
I looked it up and have a few comments.

The Scryb Ranger: Great beater? Don't make me laugh. It's a 1/1 for 2. You play it for utility, not to kill opponents with. It also cannot beat an active Jace, since it hits Jace for 1 a turn and Jace goes +2 each turn. It's great with Mother of Runes, but only against fair decks. And against fair decks you already have an edge. Against decks that go turn 2 Tendrils for 22 or turn 2 Emrakul, it does a grand total of nothing and gets boarded out. Perhaps you should main deck one and sideboard the second?

Lands: You play almost no proper lands. You have 4 fetches with 3 basics. On average you will draw one of these 7 in the first 9 cards, leaving you very Wasteland-vulnerable. Scryb Ranger can protect you from Wasteland, but only if it lands, and that dude dies to every removal spell available in Legacy. I believe the mana base should be more stable to compete in the current Stifle/Waste infested meta.


I forgot to add that scryb is a good beater with equipment.

About goyf, of course there will be games where 2 goyf will be anough, no doubt about it, but its a very marginal card in this type of deck. against combo decks, the main plan is to stick mother + gaddock/canonist/thalia. Tarmogoyf gets outclassed very easily by mother of runes, bigger KotR and is terrible against jace. I'd never fault anyoine for running one, but count how many times you want goyf over any of the other one-ofs/Kotr. Not to mention it gets incredible embarrased against scavenging ooze.

About the mana base: Do you hear yourself? How can 7 basic total + 8 turn 1 acceleration spells be a bad mana base?
anyway, how can you try to discuss my manabse when it's the most standard one, and the one that all GW zenith decks have?

[Tinefol]

Jesus christ....
85 pages in his thread and we are still asking about tarmogoyf?
...


All that could've sounded credible have you not bitched about losing to Counterbalance a day earlier on M-L. Oh, and did I mention general arrogance of your posts?

[arcannys]

All that could've sounded credible have you not bitched about losing to Counterbalance a day earlier on M-L. Oh, and did I mention general arrogance of your posts?

So you're defending that CB is good in this meta right?
It's not arrogancy, is disapointment. From time to time i check this threads to see if ppl came up with new techs or interesting lists, but instead i see ppl arguing about things that have been discussed to oblivion, and they even get angry an asceptic when they get their lists criticised.

OK, so i did a quick search.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Maverick&format=Legacy
In the first page of this link, i checked all decklists (30), and saw a total of 4 decks running tarmogoyf only 1 in each of thos decks, which makes a total of 4 tarmogoyfs in 30 decklists.

Either you're right and the rest of the world is wrong about goyf, or you're just trying to defend your decklist and not accepting criticism.

I'm off trying to discuss this, it's been discussed to death in every single maverick thread of every single magic forum. I dont have time for this.

[Tinefol]

I'm merely pointing out that you're being arrogant and quick on judgements.

Though, as the developer of the mentioned CB deck, I assure you I know everything about its place in the meta through weeks of extensive testing. You're underestimating the capabilities of this build. Though this is not for this topic, PM me if interested.

[majikal]

Thalia is pretty bad in this deck. You have to run 3 of her to maximize your chances of drawing her, for which there is not enough room, and in a lot of matchups, adding 1 to the cost of your Zeniths, StPs, and Elspeth is just terrible.

I'm not seeing how she "pushes us over the edge".

[maurobad2k4]

I believe Thalia is good in the Green & Taxes shell, but not in the Maverick.

[Esper3k]

I've been a huge fan of PFires ever since I made the switch and haven't looked back.

For me, I've never been super comfortable with the Zoo or RUG Tempo matchups with the GW build and wanted more of an edge against those and the mirror.

Here's how I see pFires in those particular matchups:

Zoo: Probably helps you the least out of the above three decks, but it still kills Lavamancers and Pridemages (without you having to waste StP on them). Also, if you're lucky enough to be on the play, you can always kill a T1 Nacatl with it on T2.

RUG Tempo: We know that the T1 Delver / flip opening is their best chance of beating us (since we need to typically save StP for Goyf). In my experience, pFires has been a great answer to the Delver. Even if it's flipped, you can still kill it. Sure they have Spell Snare, but that's what your Groves are for. Yes, they can Stifle the trigger, but unless they happen to have a Wasteland right then and there (you didn't run your Grove out into Wasteland unless you absolutely had to, right?) + Stifle + Spell Snare, etc... the odds just get worse and worse for them.

Maverick Mirror: Again, we know the mirror typically comes down to Moms, Knights, Equipment. Pfires crushes Moms and gives you more removal for the little creatures that are about to get equipped and lets you save your StP's and PtE's for Knights.

We already have also gone over the awesomeness of being able to play REBs / Ancient Grudge from the board as well.

Also for me, pFires adds another aspect to the deck that makes it difficult to attack. First your opponent has to deal with your creatures, equipment, and now add in pFires to the mix (another threat to deal with that isn't typically answered by cards that answer creatures/equipment).

On a side note, having pFires is also yet another answer to the scary T2 Stoneforge that people always seem to get against me!

[arcannys]

You only mentioned the upside of playing pFires, you didnt mention the downside, which is a weak mana base and a less consitent deck, since you're reducing the thread density by a fair margin. I guess it depends on if you are willing to accept those downsides for a better MU against those deck (which i think it's prety good aready). It's more of a meta-call.
I play the GW version and i always beat Pfire mirrors with thrun, wasteland and scavening ooze.

[majikal]

I play the GW version and i always beat Pfire mirrors with thrun, wasteland and scavening ooze.
That.

[Esper3k]

You only mentioned the upside of playing pFires, you didnt mention the downside, which is a weak mana base and a less consitent deck, since you're reducing the thread density by a fair margin. I guess it depends on if you are willing to accept those downsides for a better MU against those deck (which i think it's prety good aready). It's more of a meta-call.
I play the GW version and i always beat Pfire mirrors with thrun, wasteland and scavening ooze.

Well, I don't see it really as losing threats since you're typically replacing things like Mindcensors (which aren't huge threats to begin with) with pFires.

The mana base is a little shakier, but it's not really that weak.

You can run Thrun, Wasteland, and Ooze in a pFires list just fine as well. Sure pFires lists tend to run 3x Wasteland instead of 4, but that's honestly not a huge difference.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What does P Fires let you beat that you can't deal with otherwise? I mean there's lots of other ways of killing Delvers.

[Esper3k]

What does P Fires let you beat that you can't deal with otherwise? I mean there's lots of other ways of killing Delvers.

Again, it improves your aggro / RUG Tempo matchups, especially Game 1. Having 7 maindeck removal spells (3 of which are reusable) vs 4 is pretty significant, especially when you need to quickly have an answer for things like Delvers.

Plus, pFires is great in the mirror and makes our control matchup even better.

[mini1337s]

Again, it improves your aggro / RUG Tempo matchups, especially Game 1. Having 7 maindeck removal spells (3 of which are reusable) vs 4 is pretty significant, especially when you need to quickly have an answer for things like Delvers.

Plus, pFires is great in the mirror and makes our control matchup even better.
QFT.
The hardest matchup, outside of combo, from a GW Maverick standpoint, is a P-Fire Maverick deck. Even sticking a Mom isn't enough to save you, and you just can't compete with their removal.

[Koby]

QFT.
The hardest matchup, outside of combo, from a GW Maverick standpoint, is a P-Fire Maverick deck. Even sticking a Mom isn't enough to save you, and you just can't compete with their removal.

Meh, pFires isn't that important IMO. Knights will still matter more.

[mini1337s]

Meh, pFires isn't that important IMO. Knights will still matter more.
I agree with KotR being a huge part of the matchup, but it's hard to keep those Knights if they can pick off Mom with P-Fire and save STP for Knight.
I have found it to be a rough matchup so far, with a straight G/W build.

[Esper3k]

I agree with KotR being a huge part of the matchup, but it's hard to keep those Knights if they can pick off Mom with P-Fire and save STP for Knight.
I have found it to be a rough matchup so far, with a straight G/W build.

Yeah this exactly. PFires kills Moms which means your StP/PtE can be saved for their Knights while they have to spend their StP/PtE on your Moms and might not have it for your own Knights.

PFires also is pretty useful against Pridemages and Oozes (less so than against Pridemage). Having pFires pretty much means they have to wait to play their Pridemage after you play your equipment otherwise they risk losing the Pridemage whereas against GW, if they StP/PtE your early Pridemages, that just means less removal for your Knights and Mothers.

Likewise playing an Ooze without green mana open or without creatures in the yard (tougher than you think it is due to all the exile based removal we run!) is a much riskier play against pFires builds than against GW.

[Tinefol]

I think it's been agreed that Punishing Maverick has a slight edge over GW. Its not overly significant though.

[Koby]

I think it's been agreed that Punishing Maverick has a slight edge over GW. Its not overly significant though.

Right, it's at most 5% edge in the mirror. Tight play, good topdecks, and making your land drops make a bigger deal than getting the pFires going.

[KobeBryan]

Right, it's at most 5% edge in the mirror. Tight play, good topdecks, and making your land drops make a bigger deal than getting the pFires going.

Is it really 5%. I know you beat the PFM deck at SCGLA, but with PFM, he keeps shooting your hierachs and moms and scyrb ranger. It gets annoying pretty fast.

And he gets to save his plows against your knights.

[Esper3k]

Yeah I think the edge of beating opposing Moms, Pridemages, etc. without having to use an StP/PtE on them is pretty huge in the mirror.

[Koby]

It's still a mirror matchup. Test it out and you'll see how little Fires does in the deck.

For instance, killing an active Mom requires :2::r::r::r: over two turns. Can you really afford to spend that much mana and not develop your threats?

[majikal]

Plus they have very few outs to Thrun and Silhana Ledgewalker.

[Fatal]

Probably the same outs as straight GW.. note that PFM runs on sb Engineered Explosives. Don't forget that PF kills in mirror:
-Moms
-Hierarchs
-Scryb
-Ooze (if not feeded)
-Avens
-Pridemage
-SFM

probably easier would be wrote that it doesn't kill KotR / Ooze if feeded / Terravore / hexproof guys (Thrun/SLW).

So bascially its rather thought MU since Straight GW can't ramp enough, his Cradle works much worst (since no more huge board presence), GWr just have CA over so many little dorks on table.

[lyracian]

Probably the same outs as straight GW.. note that PFM runs on sb Engineered Explosives. Don't forget that PF kills in mirror:

Which is just another good reason to run Bog maindeck. So long as you have a Knight at the ready you can respond to the PFires triggers going on the stack by fetching Bog. :tongue:

[Esper3k]

It's still a mirror matchup. Test it out and you'll see how little Fires does in the deck.

For instance, killing an active Mom requires :2::r::r::r: over two turns. Can you really afford to spend that much mana and not develop your threats?

In my experience with the mirror (I've played both sides of this one), I've liked pFires more. The pFires lists are definitely more controlling than the straight GW list to me, but yes, I usually find it worth EoT pFires their Mom, return with Grove, then kill it on your turn to be more than worth it.

That's also just against an active Mother. The most likely time they're going to be able to get an active Mother going is early game where gives you 3 more answers to Mom before they get to untap.

Mid-Late game if you have Grove + pFires, any subsequent Moms aren't a problem whereas the GW list may simply have run out of answers or is forced to spend StP/PtE on her.


Plus they have very few outs to Thrun and Silhana Ledgewalker.

What does the GW list run that's a great out to Thrun / Ledgewalker that pFires can't run?

Post board, pFires actually probably has access to better answers to equipment (which is what makes Silhana scary).


Which is just another good reason to run Bog maindeck. So long as you have a Knight at the ready you can respond to the PFires triggers going on the stack by fetching Bog. :tongue:

This is true, but having an active Knight on either side should be quite the advantage. Conversely, if the pFires player has an active Knight as well, they can get a Grove and return their pFires in response to the Bog trigger.

I really do like Bog main, but I've been having a tough time figuring out how to fit it into my list (this is where I feel the GW list has an advantage, having more leeway on maindeck toolbox lands).

[Raystar]

...This is true, but having an active Knight on either side should be quite the advantage. Conversely, if the pFires player has an active Knight as well, they can get a Grove and return their pFires in response to the Bog trigger.

I really do like Bog main, but I've been having a tough time figuring out how to fit it into my list (this is where I feel the GW list has an advantage, having more leeway on maindeck toolbox lands)....

This man speaks the truth...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Haven't playtested Punishing Fires but I haven't heard a description of the purported advantages to running a third color that sound better to me than just running more Thruns and/or Ledgewalkers and a second Jitte (if running SFM.)

I mean I already feel like I have infinite removal in my straight g/w build so I feel no compulsion to splash for removal that can't hit big guys (although it would be nice against Planeswalkers, I admit.)

[arcannys]

Planeswalkers are not a problem for this deck, against control deck you should win most of the times. All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck. P fire was good the first time someone thought about it, now all the GW players are aware of it and know how to play around it, so its not rlly that good. I definetly think that the GW version is the way to go. The main strategy is to hold your wastelands for when they land a grove, and try to zenith for big creatures rather than the utility ones like scryb ranger (all I do in the straight GW mirror). Thrun and ledgewaker helps a ton, and you can also set up a situation where they are only able to Pfire once, and you zenith for Ooze with 2-3 mana untapped to save it from Pfires.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I don't think that's true at all and I wonder what people base it on. I mean the most played control deck is Blade Control, which seems problematic in the extreme before they bring in Wraths. I mean the only thing I can think of is that previously Blade Control players had no fucking idea how to run this matchup down and lost to their own casual contempt for the deck, because their basic strategy is exceptionally bad for Maverick. Especially if they're wise and have ditched SoFF for Jitte.

Coupled with statements like,


All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck.

I'm just going to dismiss this as overly optimistic jingoism. If Maverick crushed everything that wasn't combo or itself nothing else would be winning tournaments; a very small portion of the field plays combo.

I agree that Ooze, Wasteland, and Knight, even without a Bog, make P Fires a questionable crutch in the mirror though.

[arcannys]

The stoneblade MU is not the easiest one, but if you understand the keys to that Mu its actualuy preaty easy. Once they've wrathed your board, all you need is a scryb ranger (best card vs jace). The best cards in that MU are the equipment. I try to search the pro-blue one as fast as possible, as that makes every single dude i play a must-answer thread in the form of STP/PtE.
Thats why i try not to zenith for dryad in the early turns so i can have that backup plan with my fetchlands late in the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean the problem with that is that in addition everything else they have infinite StPs post-board. Or a close approximation.

And you only have, what, at most 25-27 creatures, which is considerably fewer than infinite.

I mean I may have to test it more extensively, but my impression thusfar of the matchup has been pain unending.

[bakofried]

I'm thinking of trying out your build, IBA, but subbing out the Waves for a pair of Garruk 3.0's, and the Goyfs for an extra Ooze and an extra Pridemage.

[majikal]

Silhana Ledgewalker has been the best trump to UW so far in my testing. The only out they have is Wrath, which you can leverage to your advantage.

[Esper3k]

Haven't playtested Punishing Fires but I haven't heard a description of the purported advantages to running a third color that sound better to me than just running more Thruns and/or Ledgewalkers and a second Jitte (if running SFM.)

I mean I already feel like I have infinite removal in my straight g/w build so I feel no compulsion to splash for removal that can't hit big guys (although it would be nice against Planeswalkers, I admit.)

In the standard GW lists, you only run 4x StP main and 2-3 PtE in the board.

With a pFires list, you get to add 3+ pFires to your main which gives you a considerably higher density of removal especially considering you can recur it with Groves (even doing it once before it gets Wastelanded is very powerful).

With the GW list, I have too many times opened a solid hand with no removal and then my opponent drops a Mom T1. Even opening 1 removal spell isn't enough many times since they drop Mom and you have to deal with it and have nothing left for the followup Knight.


Planeswalkers are not a problem for this deck, against control deck you should win most of the times. All that matters right now is having an edge in the mirror and winning combo deck. P fire was good the first time someone thought about it, now all the GW players are aware of it and know how to play around it, so its not rlly that good. I definetly think that the GW version is the way to go. The main strategy is to hold your wastelands for when they land a grove, and try to zenith for big creatures rather than the utility ones like scryb ranger (all I do in the straight GW mirror). Thrun and ledgewaker helps a ton, and you can also set up a situation where they are only able to Pfire once, and you zenith for Ooze with 2-3 mana untapped to save it from Pfires.

I'm not entirely sold on Ledgewalker as some sort of mirror breaker. Maverick runs plenty of answers to equipment and once you deal with their equipment, Ledgewalker gets really bad.

Things you say for GW to do against pFires (getting Thrun, Ledgewalker, Ooze, use Wasteland) are things that the pFires lists can do as well. However, on top of that, pFires lists get to beat active Moms in the mirror as well as keep removal back for your Knights whereas GW builds have to spend important removal on Moms and have a pretty tough time getting through an active Mom at all.

[Koby]

You know what beats the mirror?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ala/9.jpg

That is all.

[sdematt]

I've been boarding her in with Thopters and in Rock, and she's fucking great. I was thinking Thrun and such, but Elspeth is just a house, in general. Thanks for the friendly reminder.

-Matt

[Esper3k]

Oh yeah Elspeth is great. I've also been playing around with the Natural Order tech for the mirror and that's been pretty ridiculous as well.

Board out your SFM package (leaving just Jitte in), your opponents will oftentimes bring in artifact hate, bring in your NO package and next level them!

[arcannys]

Do you know what REALLY beats the mirror?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/2.jpg
You're welcome.

[zulander]

How do I do autocard? Sorry...

Here's my list:

Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Rune
3 Noble H.
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Stoneforge
4 Knight
1 Thrun
1 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

Non-Creatures: 17
2 E. Tutor
1 Sylvan
1 Top
1 Elspeth
3 Swords
1 O. Ring
1 Birthing Pod
4 Green Suns Zenith
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Crucible

Mana: 23
4 Winswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Horizion Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Sterring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales

Board:
1 E. Tutor
1 Choke
1 COP: Red
1 E. E
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Kitchen Finks

So I've taken the concept of "packages" to the extreme with this build making it probably the most resilient deck I've ever played. The E. Tutor's in the main help with boarding in extra cards while also finding removal, equipment, mana, etc...

The deck runs 4 packages main:
GSZ
Stoneforge
Knight
E. Tutor

Most of the time when I resolve a Knight I go and get a crucible so I can just do nasty stuff like draw two cards a turn/wastelock/etc...

If I get a stoneforge than I usually E. Tutor for a Birthing Pod so I can get some dudes. I put Gaddock Teeg in the board as there aren't that many combo players in my meta.

The board is pretty straigtforward, for blue decks bring in the Choke and Scryb Ranger, for burn bring in COP Red/Finks/E. Tutor for Dredge bring in E. Tutor/Wheel/Crypt etc... You get the point.

This deck is such a blast to play, I don't know why people don't play it more.

Gonna play this this upcoming weekend. Any last minute advice?

[majikal]

Do you know what REALLY beats the mirror?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/2.jpg
You're welcome.
A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

[arcannys]

wth..?
-1 top +1 sylvan library
cut those bad artifact lands and add real lands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would recommend trying out Wave before dismissing it. It's a lot more powerful than people seem to think.

I would also strongly recommend against a list with 0 Goyfs. There's entirely too many situations where a 3 mana 4/5 or 5/6 is the best value you can get out of GSZ.

[majikal]

Gonna play this this upcoming weekend. Any last minute advice?
Don't play artifact lands?




I would also strongly recommend against a list with 0 Goyfs. There's entirely too many situations where a 3 mana 4/5 or 5/6 is the best value you can get out of GSZ.
Goyf is garbage in this deck. It isn't big enough.

[arcannys]

A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

I know its kind of a pet card, but it's actualy very good, and can lead to big blowouts.
Our opponent is also playing 4 zenith, so a zenith into qasali is a very common play when they saw your jitte. When they pass the turn with qasali+ 1 mana untapped, you equip jitte and attack, give pro green to jitte and conect. Thats entertainment.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In the standard GW lists, you only run 4x StP main and 2-3 PtE in the board.

With a pFires list, you get to add 3+ pFires to your main which gives you a considerably higher density of removal especially considering you can recur it with Groves (even doing it once before it gets Wastelanded is very powerful).

With the GW list, I have too many times opened a solid hand with no removal and then my opponent drops a Mom T1. Even opening 1 removal spell isn't enough many times since they drop Mom and you have to deal with it and have nothing left for the followup Knight.

I run a 2 Elspeth/2 Parallax Wave split that renders defensive Moms pretty much useless. That and Jitte+Thrun tend to take care of any problem I can imagine PFire fixing without damaging the mana base.


I'm not entirely sold on Ledgewalker as some sort of mirror breaker. Maverick runs plenty of answers to equipment and once you deal with their equipment, Ledgewalker gets really bad.

No, they don't. The only answer to equipment itself is Pridemage, Maze and StPs obviously don't work on Ledgewalker.


Things you say for GW to do against pFires (getting Thrun, Ledgewalker, Ooze, use Wasteland) are things that the pFires lists can do as well. However, on top of that, pFires lists get to beat active Moms in the mirror as well as keep removal back for your Knights whereas GW builds have to spend important removal on Moms and have a pretty tough time getting through an active Mom at all.

I mean as I and other cards have noted there are lots of ways to break apart the mirror in GW, even through active Moms, yes.


On a side note I recommend against Natural Order as a crutch plan for the deck since it leaves you absolultely cold to Perish.

[majikal]

I know its kind of a pet card, but it's actualy very good, and can lead to big blowouts.
Our opponent is also playing 4 zenith, so a zenith into qasali is a very common play when they saw your jitte. When they pass the turn with qasali+ 1 mana untapped, you equip jitte and attack, give pro green to jitte and conect. Thats entertainment.
Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to play reactive cards in a proactive deck unless it's a repeating effect, especially if you're not running a full set. You're not guaranteed to have it when it matters, and it's a terrible topdeck. I dunno, while the idea is saucy, I think the math is stacked against it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Goyf is garbage in this deck. It isn't big enough.

I notice that the situations in which Goyf isn't huge are the situations in which all my problem permanents and GSZs are resolving and sticking, in which case I'm going to win anyway.

Goyf is a great redundant threat in that if they deal with everything else they do so by giving you a 5/6 or 6/7.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A reactive, situational instant single-handedly beats the mirror? :eyebrow:

Faith's Shield seems almost strictly better; it can protect Planeswalkers and Library, if you're in an otherwise bad situation it can enable a surprise reverse alpha swing, and it can also stop Tendrils decks from winning (albeit not before they gain a bunch of life, but still,) or counter the last and lethal burn spell an opponent lobs at you etc..

[majikal]

Faith's Shield seems almost strictly better; it can protect Planeswalkers and Library, if you're in an otherwise bad situation it can enable a surprise reverse alpha swing, and it can also stop Tendrils decks from winning (albeit not before they gain a bunch of life, but still,) or counter the last and lethal burn spell an opponent lobs at you etc..
100%. It also protects a land from Sinkhole or Vindicate. There are enough uses for this card that I would actually consider it (but there are still probably a lot of better options).

[arcannys]

Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to play reactive cards in a proactive deck unless it's a repeating effect, especially if you're not running a full set. You're not guaranteed to have it when it matters, and it's a terrible topdeck. I dunno, while the idea is saucy, I think the math is stacked against it.

I know, i was being kind of sarcastic, but i've actualy played it in a D&T build before ad it's always been awesome. More than what the card does, it about the surprise factor. I always like to mix things up and confuse my opponents. Specialy those bad players that only netdeck their lists.
The most relevant part is that it can protect your equipments too, which are the most important tool in the mirror and against control too.

PD: faithless shield seems strictly better wohoo!

[Koby]

I know, i was being kind of sarcastic, but i've actualy played it in a D&T build before ad it's always been awesome. More than what the card does, it about the surprise factor. I always like to mix things up and confuse my opponents. Specialy those bad players that only netdeck their lists.
The most relevant part is that it can protect your equipments too, which are the most important tool in the mirror and against control too.

PD: faithless shield seems strictly better wohoo!

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/44.jpg

Seems better than both of those options, especially for the Alpha-strike. In no way is it playable however.

[arcannys]

it doesnt protect artifcts/sylvan, its a 2x1 on yourself and it cant counter a lethal tendrils. How is it better? That card is miles away from shield and blessing.
Giving pro green to your jitte in resp to qasali its probably GG.

[sdematt]

I remember reading Drew Levin talking about Perish being bad and you shouldn't play it, since Natural Order isn't around anymore. But, I'm not really sure what he's talking about, since Virtue's Ruin is decently insane against us. I'd also go against the NO plan out of the board, even if it seems super good in the mirror (unless you're fighting Maverick for 8 rounds, then sure, but anything with Black is packing Ruin/Perish, or maybe I'm the only one?).

-Matt

[Koby]

No mana cost, and it can allow you to alpha strike. I'm not thrilled about any of the one-shot protection spells by any means. Even Shining Shoal seems better, since it's another trick that can be used even in combat and as a direct damage spell.

[arcannys]

OMG dude, stop saying cards that protect your creatures. You dont give a crap about your creatures dieing, you want to protect your equipment and your summon sick mother of runes. The fact that it has this little bonus vs combo/alpha strike potential, makes it good, imo.
I'll try a couple of those this sturday since my meta is 50% GW maverick and let you know how it went.
This deck is not looking to alpha strike our opponents, this deck looks for value and grindy games.

[majikal]

OMG dude, stop saying cards that protect your creatures. You dont give a crap about your creatures dieing, you want to protect your equipment and your summon sick mother of runes. The fact that it has this little bonus vs combo/alpha strike potential, makes it good, imo.
I'll try a couple of those this sturday since my meta is 50% GW maverick and let you know how it went.
This deck is not looking to alpha strike our opponents, this deck looks for value and grindy games.
It also looks to have better topdecks than your opponent. Protection cards don't fit that bill.

[Koby]

OMG dude, stop saying cards that protect your creatures. You dont give a crap about your creatures dieing, you want to protect your equipment and your summon sick mother of runes. The fact that it has this little bonus vs combo/alpha strike potential, makes it good, imo.
I'll try a couple of those this sturday since my meta is 50% GW maverick and let you know how it went.
This deck is not looking to alpha strike our opponents, this deck looks for value and grindy games.

Am I missing something? If Mom is sick, then your creatures are prone to removal. Also, none of these spells protect us from Combo.

I personally don't care if they spend time to blow up Library or Equipment. That means they spent mana/cards/resources to destroy a non-threat. Besides, that's what Eternal Witness is for - Buyback.

[arcannys]

Mother of runes is the best card in this deck, if you untap with it, you'll win 90% of those games, you dont give a crap if they stp your KotR.
If mom is sick THERE's NO WAY they kill any other creature but mom.
I'm actualy thinking about going up to 4 stoenforge, adding a second jitte, the sylhana eldgewalker and a couple of those faith's shelds. That would give the deck a new dimension and an edge in the mirror imo.


I was actualy trying to think of a situation in which this card is 100% dead, and i just can figure it out. Every deck runs removal, artifact removal, jace bounce, etc.. And it has this bonus against combo and the alpha strike potential.

[Esper3k]

I run a 2 Elspeth/2 Parallax Wave split that renders defensive Moms pretty much useless. That and Jitte+Thrun tend to take care of any problem I can imagine PFire fixing without damaging the mana base.

I'm not a fan of pushing up our mana curve especially with things we can't tutor up unless it's absolutely busted.

An active defensive Mom stops Thrun + Jitte...



No, they don't. The only answer to equipment itself is Pridemage, Maze and StPs obviously don't work on Ledgewalker.

Right - I said the deck runs plenty of answers to equipment, which it does (4x GSZ + 2-3 Pridemages maindeck, potentially more answers postboard, especially red splashes running Ancient Grudge).



On a side note I recommend against Natural Order as a crutch plan for the deck since it leaves you absolultely cold to Perish.

If you read my post, Natural Order is tech for the mirror. Honestly, I don't think there's any real crutch in Maverick. The deck is designed on redundancy and flexibility. Most changes people talk about here generally don't affect that aspect of the deck that much.

[arcannys]

Most of the lists still run aven mindcensor and Progenitus can easily be raced in this deck.

[Koby]

I think we've beat the horse enough for now.

Let's talk about sideboarding. What strategies have you guys employed for the major archetypes (and taking out/bringing in - details!)?

RUG Delver (w/ and w/o Stifle)
Burn & UR Delver
UW/x Stoneblade
Reanimator
Dredge
Storm combo
BUG Control / Hymn+Blue decks
Deadguy / Junk
Zoo / 2-3 color Sligh

[Esper3k]

Most of the lists still run aven mindcensor and Progenitus can easily be raced in this deck.

I'm not convinced Mindcensor is good. On top of that, since I've been playing a pFires list, it's not really that threatening. The only time you have to worry about it is if they try and gotcha you and you just play around that if you suspect it.

My experience playing against NO has been that Progenitus can only be raced late game IF you have a big Knight + equipment. If they have that, they've probably got the game won regardless of Progenitus or not.

However, if you Natural Order on turns 3-5, you've probably got the game won.

[arcannys]

I think we've beat the horse enough for now.

Let's talk about sideboarding. What strategies have you guys employed for the major archetypes (and taking out/bringing in - details!)?

RUG Delver (w/ and w/o Stifle)
Burn & UR Delver
UW/x Stoneblade
Reanimator
Dredge
Storm combo
BUG Control / Hymn+Blue decks
Deadguy / Junk
Zoo / 2-3 color Sligh
RUG delver: i go +2 path to exile +2 choke -light and shadow, -2 qasali, -1 something else
UW blade: +2 choke +2nature's claim+1elspeth+1garruk -4 swords-2something else
reanimator: +2 surgical+2path+1 bojuka -equipment package.
Dredge:+1 rhox war monk +2 surgical+2path-body and mind-2 qasalis- something else
Storm: +3 canonist +2 surgical - equipment package
BUg control: +2 finks +1 elspeth +1 garruk - gadock - some equipment -sometihng else
Zoo: +1 rhox war monk+2 path +2 finks+1 elspeth -gaddock, - not sure here, depends on their list (SFM, punishing fire, etc..)

This is my SB:
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks


I'm not convinced Mindcensor is good. On top of that, since I've been playing a pFires list, it's not really that threatening. The only time you have to worry about it is if they try and gotcha you and you just play around that if you suspect it.

My experience playing against NO has been that Progenitus can only be raced late game IF you have a big Knight + equipment. If they have that, they've probably got the game won regardless of Progenitus or not.

However, if you Natural Order on turns 3-5, you've probably got the game won.
Mindcensor is not good, But until now (thalia), it was the best option for that 2-3 slots.