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Goddik
03-05-2012, 03:58 PM
Thanks alot Xile, your comments are immensely helpfull. I will spend some time digesting them and make changes.

The Jitte plan was thought mainly as a way of tempoing out the mirror. It is admittedly quite experimemental (read: Possibly quite bad), your thought about a second witness is also interesting although i think it will be too clunky.

On a different note i am really not a fan of the blue splash. The only blue cards i really want in this deck are jace and submerge and the list is already pretty tight.

Geist is an agressive non plowable creature in a deck full of plowable stuff that wants to play board control. Rhox does not solve a problem you can't solve with batterskul+ proper enlightened tutoring.

Koby
03-05-2012, 08:44 PM
My friend asked for some tips with this deck, I thought I'd share with the whole class.

key to playing the deck:
1. fetch basics
1a. if they don't run wastes, dual it up
1b. Submerge is a real card
2. get to 3-4 mana as priority #1
2a. this allows you to start pumping out knights/gsz->knight/sfm equips
3. Knight for wastes if they don't have a threat and you can prevent them from casting their spells
3a. don't do this vs Tempo they only need 2 lands)
3b. cut off red sources against tempo
3c. prevent 4 mana from stoneblade (jace) if possible
4. Ooze is the shit - he's your mid-game bomb vs a lot o stuff
5. your life total doesn't really matter unless it's against Red or flyers
6. learn to use scryb ranger judiciously
6a. don't walk into removal when you activate her without an active mom
6b. don't activate her when mom's tapped, that's when removal happens
7. jitte is doing to be doing a lot of heavy duty in any creature matchup
8. witnessing back Stp or wasteland is perfectly legitimate play
9. board out 2 nobles vs Mass removal decks (wrath, deed)
10. Mom sucks against affinity (duh)
11. pridemage sucks against RUG tempo, but you may want 1-2 against Mind Harness
12. SUBMERGE and MASSACRE exist, try to play carefully when those become a factor; also see (1b).
13. stp'ing Delver on turn 1 is a fine play, but don't walk it into a Daze.
14. mulligan to relevant hands against known decks (stp usually)
15. some hands with dryad arbor are keepable. they should not rely on GSZ -> arbor
15a. hands with 5 lands are NOT keepable (no gas)

Fade
03-05-2012, 11:36 PM
My friend asked for some tips with this deck, I thought I'd share with the whole class.

key to playing the deck:
1. fetch basics
1a. if they don't run wastes, dual it up
1b. Submerge is a real card
2. get to 3-4 mana as priority #1
2a. this allows you to start pumping out knights/gsz->knight/sfm equips
3. Knight for wastes if they don't have a threat and you can prevent them from casting their spells
3a. don't do this vs Tempo they only need 2 lands)
3b. cut off red sources against tempo
3c. prevent 4 mana from stoneblade (jace) if possible
4. Ooze is the shit - he's your mid-game bomb vs a lot o stuff
5. your life total doesn't really matter unless it's against Red or flyers
6. learn to use scryb ranger judiciously
6a. don't walk into removal when you activate her without an active mom
6b. don't activate her when mom's tapped, that's when removal happens
7. jitte is doing to be doing a lot of heavy duty in any creature matchup
8. witnessing back Stp or wasteland is perfectly legitimate play
9. board out 2 nobles vs Mass removal decks (wrath, deed)
10. Mom sucks against affinity (duh)
11. pridemage sucks against RUG tempo, but you may want 1-2 against Mind Harness
12. SUBMERGE and MASSACRE exist, try to play carefully when those become a factor; also see (1b).
12a. HIBERNATION can screw you over.
13. stp'ing Delver on turn 1 is a fine play, but don't walk it into a Daze.
14. mulligan to relevant hands against known decks (stp usually)
15. some hands with dryad arbor are keepable. they should not rely on GSZ -> arbor
15a. hands with 5 lands are NOT keepable (no gas)

Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?

majikal
03-05-2012, 11:47 PM
Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?
Don't be afraid to Swords to Plowshares your own guys.

Koby
03-06-2012, 12:03 AM
Oh ya, found another one - don't board out Scryb Ranger against Price of Progress. (GSZ for 2... oooops)

majikal
03-06-2012, 12:37 AM
Also, Gaddock Teeg prevents Fireblast.

Koby
03-06-2012, 01:01 AM
Coming back from a night of testing the burn matchup and all I can say is it is still terrible preboard. Jitte is literally the only hope I feel and sometimes it still doesn't get there. Both Batterskull and Rhox War Monk were too slow and Thalia only really slows them down if they do not have a bolt or chain for her. In all the burn matches I played around the price to progress by fetching up my three basics firsts and only running out maybe one nonbasic unless they were wastelands. Any tips on this matchup for games 1?

Have you tested Kitchen Finks? I haven't, but this could be slightly speedbump vs Burn.

Ajsmirnov
03-06-2012, 02:01 AM
I want to add about mirrors:
don't search library when opponent passes turn with 2 lands and hierarch untapped.

Fade
03-06-2012, 05:46 AM
Don't be afraid to Swords to Plowshares your own guys.

I wasn't. I had to get rid of an Ooze and Teeg at one point in the game leaving just a noble on board.


Have you tested Kitchen Finks? I haven't, but this could be slightly speedbump vs Burn.

I haven't personally tested it but he seems like the best option right now. Gains 2 life and blocks/kills one of their guys then gains us 2 more life and can still chump. The guy is even a nice trick for the black pox deck running around.


Also, Gaddock Teeg prevents Fireblast.

It seems to always be able to shut down at least one card in every deck which makes me think it might deserve a md slot but I was never impressed when I drew it during game 1 and recently tried him in the side.

MaŽlig
03-06-2012, 07:14 AM
Imo the most important thing to remember vs burn is to keep wasteland(s) untapped as soon as possible in the game, otherwise PoP can really fuck us over. In the same spirit, start by fetching some basics if possible. I really like the tutor + worship tech for G2/3.

Fade
03-06-2012, 11:24 AM
Imo the most important thing to remember vs burn is to keep wasteland(s) untapped as soon as possible in the game, otherwise PoP can really fuck us over. In the same spirit, start by fetching some basics if possible. I really like the tutor + worship tech for G2/3.

Out of the 20 or so games I had with burn yesterday (I made him play first about 15 times), I would just get smoked. I would always fetch up my three basics first and maybe fetch up one savannah. The only other lands I played were wastelands which rarely ever tapped in fear of the PoP. I used to run Worship in the board with tutors but sometimes you never get the four mana needed. That being said I think we need some type of enchantment against burn whether its Worship, COP:Red, or Leyline of Sancitity. It's also very hard to win when you play a competent burn player who will bolt/chain/rift bolt your noble hierarch.

majikal
03-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Out of the 20 or so games I had with burn yesterday (I made him play first about 15 times), I would just get smoked. I would always fetch up my three basics first and maybe fetch up one savannah. The only other lands I played were wastelands which rarely ever tapped in fear of the PoP. I used to run Worship in the board with tutors but sometimes you never get the four mana needed. That being said I think we need some type of enchantment against burn whether its Worship, COP:Red, or Leyline of Sancitity. It's also very hard to win when you play a competent burn player who will bolt/chain/rift bolt your noble hierarch.
Keep better hands.

Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.

The best way to deal with it is to stick a Jitte on something they can't kill and start going to town.

Koby
03-06-2012, 12:27 PM
My plan against Burn at the Grand Prix is thus:

Dodge bullets like Neo from the Matrix.

/rant/ Why. Won't. The. Damned. Burn. Deck. Die. Already? /endrant/

EDIT: super janky really bad-tech: Burrenton Forge-tender stops PoP, recurrable with SoLS, lives to carry equipment. Probably only good in D&T however.

Fade
03-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.

The best way to deal with it is to stick a Jitte on something they can't kill and start going to town.

I agree in the games where I did win it was always on the back of jitte with the help of a scavenging ooze sometimes. As long as the burn player draws into nothing, scavenging ooze is sometimes good enough.


My plan against Burn at the Grand Prix is thus:

Dodge bullets like Neo from the Matrix.

/rant/ Why. Won't. The. Damned. Burn. Deck. Die. Already? /endrant/

Yea I don't even know if it's worth having a slot devoted strictly to burn at the GP as it would only marginally increase our chances with 3 extra relevant cards against them. Even after board they can smash our Jitte which is half of our plan.

arcannys
03-06-2012, 12:50 PM
Keep better hands.
Honestly, though, it's just a terrible matchup. Rhox doesn't help. Finks doesn't help. If they know what they're doing, you'll gain life exactly once and then they'll kill you.


I agree that finks and rhox are not the "BEST" answer you colud have against burn, but they definetly help. And the reason i run both rhox and finks is not to beat burn especifically, they're great in plenty of other MU. Finks are good against zoo, canadian thresh, sweepers (WoG, perish, virtue's ruin), and obviously burn. This is the definition of a good sideboard card.

Machahiko
03-06-2012, 01:51 PM
If you ask me, burn has the inevitability unless we play cards like worship or some other janky sideboard cards that are really narrow. My thought for a plan would be that I want to beat the burn player to death before he burns me, and if I get him to play defensive and spend more and more burn to my creatures, it allows me to live longer and therefore hopefully - win the game.

By approaching the matchup this way I would imagine that Geist of Saint Traft would be pretty neat. If you get him online on turn 2, you'll start hitting 6-7+ a turn. My -another pet card- another suggestion would be Rafiq of the Many. ...and maybe Shorecrasher Mimic..? Well, that's far fetched and it won't work for sure without turning the deck into bantfish something.

I have to admit that I'm limited to knowing cards really well only from morningtide and forward, but I'd imagine that you guys might have some cards in mind which could back up this plan. Maverick usually has the inevitability in the games that it plays but I don't see any way how to guarantee this inevitability against burn.

Vengevine(s) could also work, they're neat against control also, but might not be good enough never the less.

lordofthepit
03-06-2012, 02:00 PM
Is the burn matchup really that bad that people are jumping through all kinds of hoops to play terrible cards to improve that matchup?

How about keep it simple with cards that aren't dead against the rest of the field? Run at least a 1-of Tarmogoyf again, giving you a total of 5 fatties that don't die to a Bolt while serving as a nice wall against their bad creatures, plus four Zeniths to fetch them. Slap a Jitte on them and ride to victory. If you can't find a fatty quickly enough, use plan B (Batterskull) and pray. If the game goes late, fetching up an Ooze is usually good game.

Sure, you'll still lose to some burn nutdraws when you keep a slow hand and you don't autowin from Enlightened Tutor into CoP: Red or Worship, or they wreck you with Smash to Smithereens, but I'd much rather run good cards against the rest of the field.

Fade
03-06-2012, 03:59 PM
Is the burn matchup really that bad that people are jumping through all kinds of hoops to play terrible cards to improve that matchup?

How about keep it simple with cards that aren't dead against the rest of the field? Run at least a 1-of Tarmogoyf again, giving you a total of 5 fatties that don't die to a Bolt while serving as a nice wall against their bad creatures, plus four Zeniths to fetch them. Slap a Jitte on them and ride to victory. If you can't find a fatty quickly enough, use plan B (Batterskull) and pray. If the game goes late, fetching up an Ooze is usually good game.

Sure, you'll still lose to some burn nutdraws when you keep a slow hand and you don't autowin from Enlightened Tutor into CoP: Red or Worship, or they wreck you with Smash to Smithereens, but I'd much rather run good cards against the rest of the field.

Having a Goyf in the deck would not improve the matchup. the only creatures burn cares about are Noble Hierarch and dryad to slow us down enough and keep us from landing a creature. Goyf would still come down on turn 2 like all of our other creatures and at that point he is too small and would just get bolted.

Koby
03-06-2012, 05:21 PM
I want to take a step back and think about Maverick going forward. I believe part of the reason why Maverick is so good in this metagame is in no part due to Stoneblade's popularity. Being that Stoneblade essentially became a Standard deck to Legacy deck overnight has something to do with the success Maverick has achieved in the time since SFM and Jace got the ban hammer in July.

Should the trend remain, then Maverick is well positioned to continue succeeding. However, if Stoneblade and RUG tempo start to become inbred and lose their edge, then Maverick also stands to lose too.

Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

lordofthepit
03-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Having a Goyf in the deck would not improve the matchup. the only creatures burn cares about are Noble Hierarch and dryad to slow us down enough and keep us from landing a creature. Goyf would still come down on turn 2 like all of our other creatures and at that point he is too small and would just get bolted.

Land + creature in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt or Chain.

Land + sorcery in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt, but not Chain; land + instant in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Chain, but not Bolt. It seems pretty easy to accomplish(like no work whatsoever) unless your Burn opponent is randomly boarding into Faerie Macabre.

BlackStarDeceiver
03-07-2012, 02:28 AM
Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?


We have a major rise on LED Dredge (as expected), NicFit and a little comeback of Hightide here in Germany. MUD is still under the radar, but is putting up results.

I might say that Elves will be getting better and MUD might ascend to tier 1 or 1.5 in spite of stompy-variance.

Aggro Loam seems well positioned right now.

Blitzbold
03-07-2012, 03:40 AM
For Indy the SCG circuit seems like a good compass.

I'd take those with a grain of salt though, as severel factors influenced the most recent results

-> absence of pro-players due to other events (PT, GP)
-> suboptimal lists
-> and so on

Another factor definitely is wether you've got any byes.

Fade
03-07-2012, 08:50 AM
Land + creature in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt or Chain.

Land + sorcery in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Bolt, but not Chain; land + instant in graveyard means Goyf is safe from Chain, but not Bolt. It seems pretty easy to accomplish(like no work whatsoever) unless your Burn opponent is randomly boarding into Faerie Macabre.

I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).

xfxf
03-07-2012, 09:57 AM
I want to take a step back and think about Maverick going forward. I believe part of the reason why Maverick is so good in this metagame is in no part due to Stoneblade's popularity. Being that Stoneblade essentially became a Standard deck to Legacy deck overnight has something to do with the success Maverick has achieved in the time since SFM and Jace got the ban hammer in July.

Should the trend remain, then Maverick is well positioned to continue succeeding. However, if Stoneblade and RUG tempo start to become inbred and lose their edge, then Maverick also stands to lose too.

Any predictions on the metagame going forward (possibly past the GP this weekend)?

I think blue will always have its place in the metagame and thus Maverick will retain it's place at the higher tiers beating those. I just can't factor the effect of continued Burn presence. I also don't know where the Storm players are with blue on the decline.

lordofthepit
03-07-2012, 03:38 PM
I agree but what does goyf actually do against burn? You play it on turn 2 and he becomes the big beater that smashes or against burn he typically sits back to block hellspark or keldon. On turn 3, you play stoneforge fetch jitte and play it assuming you haven't missed a land drop. By then it's turn 4 and burn has either almost won or won by that point. You don't get goyf equipped until turn 5 unless you had the nut's with a hand containing Jitte. Burn consistently wins by turn 4, sometimes on turn 3, and if they kept the slowest hand ever they still win on turn 5. This matchup is very dependent on who goes first and i would rather have a Ooze to remove their hellspark elemental, make him a 3/3, and gain a life. He also has the potential to gain more life and become bigger than a goyf in this matchup. Goyf in this match up normally will only be a 4/5 at the most (land, creature, instant, sorcery).

My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.

Jak
03-07-2012, 04:19 PM
I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.

If the burn player is burning your guys, how are you losing? The only time I ever have trouble is when I have to start playing defense with all my dorks that are x/1 and x/2 and then I just lose based on tempo because you won't get back in the game when you do that.

Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.

Fade
03-07-2012, 04:27 PM
My burn matchups never play out like that. If they have to spend burn spells to remove my guys, they're not directed at my dome. If I have a X/4 blocker (Goyf or Knight), then they're almost certainly not goldfishing me by turn 4 (except with the most godlike draws).

If I get a first turn Noble Hierarch, second turn Goyf or Knight (with a 4+ ass), third turn SFM into Jitte as you described, I consider myself an overwhelming favorite in the game against burn, as long as I've fetched a basic or two to play around POP. You'll lose some games but at least you're not cluttering your sideboard with crap like Aegis of Honor.

Edit: Ooze is great in this matchup too. Just not on turns 2 or 3 where Goyf would survive and Ooze would not. It's your late game bomb to gain 2-3 life the turn it comes into play (so that you can put it out of burn range) and threaten to dominate the board from there.

Realistic burn starts:
Turn 1: GG - 2
Turn 2: Hellspark Elemental - 7 (if no blockers)
Turn 3: Chain Lightning, Unearth Hellspark - 15
Turn 4: Any number of their cards can kill you in any configuration.

Turn 1: Suspend Rift
Turn 2: Keldon Marauders - 4
Turn 3: Spike and Chain - 13
Turn 4: Lightning Bolt, Fireblast - Dead + 1

Throwing this out there the goyf could hypothetically block a creature to prevent some damage (if you had a fetch and they played an instant/sorcery) on turn 2 or 3 but then the burn player could just bolt the goyf to kill it if they think it's threatening (most of the time it isn't) Even if you do get two counters on Jitte a Price of Progress or a fireblast can take that 4 life away.

Conclusion: I would rather play a Ooze where the one life I could potentially gain might be the deciding factor and let my KOTR and Terravore be there to block their dudes.


Oh and does anyone have premium or know the lists from Drew Levins article? The comments make them sound interesting and since they aren't his lists, but ones that actually one tournaments, I don't think SCG can stop people from posting them.

He just posted the recent list that won tampa (4c 'fearless'), Gerry T's Punishing Maverick, and then a standard GW list with Thalia's and no E-tutor sideboard.

Koby
03-07-2012, 04:28 PM
List #1 - some Euro GW maverick list with 3 Thalia
List #2 - William Cao's 4 color "Fearless" build. The inclusion of Fires/Groves was weighed against its utility (1-2 sentences)
List #3 - GerryT's list from the Invitational.

RE: Burn
I've often times used a fresh Mom to chump Keldon Mauraders. This is 100% the right play as taking 3 less damage is a big deal. Didn't win the game regardless, because Price of Progress shits on our head when we don't draw fetchlands, but that's how the game usually goes.

lordofthepit
03-07-2012, 05:11 PM
I don't necessarily think Tarmogoyf is good in this deck, but lordofthepit is correct about it in the burn match-up. Maverick has no guys that can just wall early on and Goyf does that. All our creatures trade when we go on defense, whereas Tarmogoyf can outlast any one of theirs.

Don't get me wrong, I think Tarmogoyf is very overrated nowadays (except in RUG Tempo), and I don't even run it in my Maverick or Bant decks. But if I were deadset on playing Maverick, and Burn was a matchup I were worried about at an upcoming event, I would add a Goyf or two back in the main before I ate into my sideboard space, since it's also nice to have against something like RUG Tempo.

Maybe that's the misunderstanding I'm having with Fade. By no means am I under the impression that Burn can't beat a Tarmogoyf. But it improves the percentages enough that I don't consider it more than slightly unfavorable (if at all).

Now, if you're planning to take Maverick to a local shop, and your meta is flooded with burn, certainly the correct decision would be to play your 4 Leyline of Sanctity + CoP: Red in your sideboard.

Anusien
03-07-2012, 05:19 PM
How are you getting enough creatures in your graveyard fast enough to gain life from Ooze? Isn't your best case scenario turn 2 Runeclaw Bear, don't block, turn 3 Healing Salve? And even that seems unlikely.

sauce
03-07-2012, 05:59 PM
What do you usually board out/in vs:

1) uw sfm
2) rug delver
3) dredge
4) mirror
5) burn

Koby
03-07-2012, 07:31 PM
What do you usually board out/in vs:

1) uw sfm
2) rug delver
3) dredge
4) mirror
5) burn

Using this sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 E-tutor
1 O-ring
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

UW Stoneblade
-2 Noble Hierarch
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-2 Sword to Plowshares
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
+1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Choke

Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

RUG Delver
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

Dredge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 E-Tutor
+2 Path to Exile
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-3 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Mother of Runes

Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

Burn
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
-1 Karakas
+2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

Mirror
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Karakas
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull

Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

To All
Feel free to suggest alternatives. I may not be utilizing the SB options to their best ability.

Fade
03-07-2012, 09:09 PM
I may have been doing it wrong but I always boarded in the chokes against RUG Delver. If it resolves about the only thing they have for it is the 1-2 Krosan Grips in the board and Dazing a spell to return an island to their hand to replay it. I board out the Elspeth, Pridemages, SoLaS, and a stoneforge to bring in Paths, Chokes, SoFaI and Maze against them.

Thalia:
For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?

maktus
03-07-2012, 09:50 PM
and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?


Using this sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 E-tutor
1 O-ring
1 Serenity
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

UW Stoneblade
-2 Noble Hierarch
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-2 Sword to Plowshares
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
+1 Oblivion Ring
+2 Choke

Removing Hierarch slows you down, but also increases the threat density of the deck. This is important since more of our creatures are now going to be picked off by StP/PtE + SCM on the rebound. Stoneblade also brings in Wrath, which the mana dorks work against us by committing more to the board.

RUG Delver
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
-1 Stoneforge Mystic or Qasali #2 or Gaddock Teeg

Removing the slower threats for more removal allows us to get to the late game. They key is to dispatch Delver of Secrets before it takes us over. Submerge and Mind Harness are also considerations, which is why leaving at least 1 Pridemage in would be a good idea.

Dredge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 E-Tutor
+2 Path to Exile
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-3 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Mother of Runes

Removal for Narco/Ichorid, extra G/Y nukers, and taking out the slower threats. Mother has limited applications, and Pridemage has no application aside from beatdown. The games you win will be with Ooze and Knight eating their yard. Watch out for Firestorm.

Burn
-1 Elspeth
-1 Thrun
-1 Terravore (if they aren't running Fetchland builds)
-1 Karakas
+2 Path to Exile (creature heavier versions)
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

Slow them down with Canonist and extra removal. Conserve your life total. Fetch basics. Save Ooze for when you can get a one or more activations before it gets insta-killed; preferably eating Hellspark Elemental. Gaddock Teeg keeps them playing fair. Scryb Ranger can help reduce the susceptibility to Price of Progress. Activating Jitte and not being exposed to Smash to Smithereens is a good strategy. StP your own guys to counter their Bolts

Mirror
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Sword of Light & Shadow
-1 Sword of Fire/Ice
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Karakas
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-1 Batterskull

Last card really depends on being on the play or draw. I prefer to always be on the draw with this deck in the mirror for extra cards. The only relevant creatures that you need to kill are Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary. Everything else is a wash. Your life total doesn't matter, so don't bother making blocks. Don't trade Jitte with their Jitte unless you can return it with Witness. SoLS serves a role player by ignoring their Moms/Knights/removal. Don't fire off KotR -> Bog until you absolutely need to. Don't Wasteland them obliviously - use it with purpose; you'll need the extra mana. Flyers are important in this matchup. Elspeth provides necessary Jump to go for the kill. Always look out for a potential to connect with an alpha strike. Expect Maze of Ith when attacking, and be prepared for it. Don't walk into Aven Mindcensor. Be wary of untapped mana sources with no main phase play.

To All
Feel free to suggest alternatives. I may not be utilizing the SB options to their best ability.

Koby
03-08-2012, 12:14 AM
and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

Junk/Rock is a weaker version of GW Maverick:
-1 SoFI
-2 Noble Hierarch
+1 SoLS
+1 Maze of Ith
+1 Bojuka Bog (for green versions - Goyf/KotR)

Maybe O-rings if you see any planeswalkers.

Against Nic-Fit:
??? Pray.

Fade
03-08-2012, 12:39 AM
and what do you suggest against rock / junk?

anyone has tested the feasibility of using thalia + pws (Elspeth, Garruk)?

Thalia is fine in our deck with planeswalkers. It doesn't hinder us too much and I found that it didn't stop me from GSZing for anything that I wanted. Sometimes you have to wait one turn to play it but that didn't happen too often.

Barbed Blightning
03-08-2012, 12:53 AM
Thalia:
For the past few days I have tested two Thalias in the main deck to see if some matches improve over others. From what I can tell, it screws up RUG Delver unless they have a quick removal spell and it improves any storm match up. Other than that I'm not sure it does anything for other decks. Does anyone else have experience with Thalia in their maindeck? How has it been for you?

Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.

Fade
03-08-2012, 08:55 AM
Thalia's been stirring up a lot of discussion in the Death and Taxes threads, but she's great in that deck because of Aether Vial, SFM, and 4 Karakas MD. While Mav borrows some things from DnT, I'm not convinced that she has a spot in this deck or SB. Mav runs considerably more non-creature spells, and while it trips up many decks, without a means of reliably fetching her out, I think she'll mostly come up as too little too late.

Thalia shines in the early game, but loses power as the game extends into the later turns. Gaddock and Canonist are still our best options against combo; as far as RUG is concerned, Terravore is much better. Makes Tarmogoyf look silly.

I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.

maktus
03-08-2012, 12:35 PM
I think this is a fair assessment, I just waned to see what other people thought of her. After play testing the Esper Blade match I asked my opponent how Thalia was against him and he said he would rather see Thalia than any other two drop we had. This being said I am considering putting Teeg main and adding the third pridemage again.

I saw some lists using thalia in the md but for now I'm only using her when it is really necessary. I use 3 in sb in place of canonist and chokes.

Thalia can also be useful against nic fit.

ThePrevailer
03-08-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't think I've ever had a problem with Burn, using a deck that runs 4 StoP and a bunch of creatures with 5 or more power, plus Ooze and Jitte. I also SB COP: Red for game 2, which obviously makes things a little easier.

Against Nic Fit, I keep reading here and on that thread that it just stomps Maverick. I've only ever played against it on Cockatrice, but I don't really find that to be the case. You just have to save your removal for their 6 drops, and bring in Pithing Needle against Deed. In my limited experience, that has been enough.

My problem is dealing with UW Stoneblade. I think I'm 1-3-2 in matches won every time I've played against an iteration of that deck (each match was against a different build).

This is my current list (with Thrun at the top of my want list).

26 CREATURES
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian on Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

13 NONCREATURE
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 LAND
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Maze of Ith

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
3 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Stony Silence
Pithing Needle
Ratchet Bomb
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph


What are the most important cards against UW Blade? I just saw someone suggest you side out Heirarch, which hadn't occurred to me yet. I know I Thrun will help, but I'm not convinced that one card is going to change the matchup from unfavorable to favorable. Is there anything else I'm missing? Also, how do you keep from going to time. I've gone 3-0-2 at a tournament because for some reason I'm incapable of beating UW twice in less than 50 minutes (if at all).

Koby
03-08-2012, 03:36 PM
You might be having difficulty against Stoneblade because you're missing some important maindeck cards:

+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Green Sun's Zenith

Both these help to keep your threats and find your threats, respectively.

The matchup is a grind-fest, no doubt about it. Maverick is slightly favored in the long run and it greatly depends on how aggressive the Stoneblade deck is playing. The 3rd Pridemage would also help since you'll see it more often and use it more aggressively to manage your opponent's equipment/Mishra's factory.

Fade
03-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't think I've ever had a problem with Burn, using a deck that runs 4 StoP and a bunch of creatures with 5 or more power, plus Ooze and Jitte. I also SB COP: Red for game 2, which obviously makes things a little easier.

Against Nic Fit, I keep reading here and on that thread that it just stomps Maverick. I've only ever played against it on Cockatrice, but I don't really find that to be the case. You just have to save your removal for their 6 drops, and bring in Pithing Needle against Deed. In my limited experience, that has been enough.

My problem is dealing with UW Stoneblade. I think I'm 1-3-2 in matches won every time I've played against an iteration of that deck (each match was against a different build).

This is my current list (with Thrun at the top of my want list).

26 CREATURES
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian on Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

13 NONCREATURE
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 LAND
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Maze of Ith

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
3 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Stony Silence
Pithing Needle
Ratchet Bomb
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph


What are the most important cards against UW Blade? I just saw someone suggest you side out Heirarch, which hadn't occurred to me yet. I know I Thrun will help, but I'm not convinced that one card is going to change the matchup from unfavorable to favorable. Is there anything else I'm missing? Also, how do you keep from going to time. I've gone 3-0-2 at a tournament because for some reason I'm incapable of beating UW twice in less than 50 minutes (if at all).

U/W should be a fairly easy match where burn is actually fairly difficult. If you look at their creatures they have stoneforge, vendilion clique, and snapcaster. If they play stoneforge you can GSZ for the Pridemage or if you have one in hand you shouldn't care too much. Just make sure if they get batterskull that they do not have 3 mana up to return it to their hand unless you would still win the race anyways. If they are beating you with clique go get a scryb ranger which is awesome with KOTR and Mother. Snapcaster you shouldn't worry too much about as it does nothing besides flashing back a swords. Late game if you land a terravore it is basically game over. SoLaS excels in this match as they can't swords your guy and a Scryb Ranger plus a swords is absolute tits against them as it swings past all their creatures and blocks all of them with protection from their entire deck.

After board I board in the chokes and second elspeth. I have never lost a game against them where I landed the choke. Elspeth gives our guys flying to bash over a batterskull or stoneforge.

majikal
03-08-2012, 04:18 PM
This just in, folks - All of your lists are wrong. Thrun is a bad card in this deck, because RUG will never let you cast it after burning all of your creatures, countering all of your spells, blowing up all of your lands after you only draw nonbasics, and still having threats on the table after all of that (and you didn't deal with Delver anyway), so why even bother.

And obviously Drew Levin is a transcendent master of Magic the Gathering, which is why he is paid to write these amazing gems of wisdom, and not us unwashed, common folk.

Koby
03-08-2012, 04:25 PM
This just in, folks - All of your lists are wrong. Thrun is a bad card in this deck, because RUG will never let you cast it after burning all of your creatures, countering all of your spells, blowing up all of your lands after you only draw nonbasics, and still having threats on the table after all of that (and you didn't deal with Delver anyway), so why even bother.

And obviously Drew Levin is a transcendent master of Magic the Gathering, which is why he is paid to write these amazing gems of wisdom, and not us unwashed, common folk.

Aside from that one piece of poor advice, I feel that the article was quite full of good content. I certainly don't agree with some of the points, but for an "intro" article is sure as shit was miles above Pat Cox's article advocating Zoo for a Mental Misstep era. (... talk about missing the boat)

Remember that the audience for SCG premium is not necessarily the regular audience that frequents The Source. Thus, the intent of the article is "overview" rather than "intricate details" - and under that perspective the article is successful. If nothing else, people will take Levin's advice as canon, play a poorly build deck, and manage an average finish. Everyone else will do well and point to superior deck list as the key to getting there. And let's be perfectly honest - Maverick is not an easy deck to master. The amount of attention one must pay to knowledge of the metagame, knowledge of opponent's decklists, the game state, and sideboard strategies alone can become overwhelming. It's not as if everyone can pick up a deck like Burn and do as well as Austin Yost has with it - it requires practice and good knowledge of the format. Both these are integral part of Maverick archetype too, as well as a hallmark of high skill level.

maktus
03-08-2012, 04:50 PM
I don't think I've ever had a problem with Burn, using a deck that runs 4 StoP and a bunch of creatures with 5 or more power, plus Ooze and Jitte. I also SB COP: Red for game 2, which obviously makes things a little easier.

Against Nic Fit, I keep reading here and on that thread that it just stomps Maverick. I've only ever played against it on Cockatrice, but I don't really find that to be the case. You just have to save your removal for their 6 drops, and bring in Pithing Needle against Deed. In my limited experience, that has been enough.

My problem is dealing with UW Stoneblade. I think I'm 1-3-2 in matches won every time I've played against an iteration of that deck (each match was against a different build).

This is my current list (with Thrun at the top of my want list).

26 CREATURES
3 Noble Heirarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian on Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Terravore

13 NONCREATURE
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Body and Mind

21 LAND
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Maze of Ith

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Batterskull
1 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
3 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
COP: Red
Stony Silence
Pithing Needle
Ratchet Bomb
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Metamorph


What are the most important cards against UW Blade? I just saw someone suggest you side out Heirarch, which hadn't occurred to me yet. I know I Thrun will help, but I'm not convinced that one card is going to change the matchup from unfavorable to favorable. Is there anything else I'm missing? Also, how do you keep from going to time. I've gone 3-0-2 at a tournament because for some reason I'm incapable of beating UW twice in less than 50 minutes (if at all).

Against UW blade you can use Manriki-gusari or Krosan Grip in SB.

Jak
03-08-2012, 06:09 PM
21 LAND
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Maze of Ith


21 Land seems really low when including Maze and Dryad Arbor in that list. Do you ever have any problems?

Nik842
03-08-2012, 06:42 PM
I've been following this thread since about it started. I've been tweaking my build here and there. I've had a decent amount of play testing this against my friends, and in a few small tournaments. So far it's done ok. My average right now is about 50/50, but that's mainly because of many play mistakes on my part, than the deck itself.

I'm thinking about going to a much bigger tournament next month and I wanted to get advise on my deck list.

I figure it'll be better to explain my stance on "why that card" or "why not this card" as they are asked instead of making this a long post.

Thanks.

My current build

// Lands (22)
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

// Creatures (23)
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells (15)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Parallax Wave
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rafiq of the Many
SB: 2 Silence
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

Koby
03-08-2012, 07:10 PM
I'm thinking about going to a much bigger tournament next month and I wanted to get advise on my deck list.

// Lands (22)
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

// Creatures (23)
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Terravore
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells (15)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Parallax Wave
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rafiq of the Many
SB: 2 Silence
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

I've bolded the questionable cards in your deck. The numbers are off in one way or the other. If it's an issue with card availability that's one concern - but if you can find the necessary cards that would improve your list. I realize getting dual lands is an expensive process, but if you can find Ravnica duals those would helps out too. Having at least one Savannah is a good start (and allows you to fetch it out early).

Playing multiples of Gaddock Teeg maindeck is not recommended however, and the same with Terravore. One of each will suffice. Play 4 Mother of Runes however, and if you feel you're lacking some disruption, you can increase the numbers on both Aven Mindcensor and/or Scavenging Ooze.

Nik842
03-08-2012, 10:47 PM
I've bolded the questionable cards in your deck. The numbers are off in one way or the other. If it's an issue with card availability that's one concern - but if you can find the necessary cards that would improve your list. I realize getting dual lands is an expensive process, but if you can find Ravnica duals those would helps out too. Having at least one Savannah is a good start (and allows you to fetch it out early).

Playing multiples of Gaddock Teeg maindeck is not recommended however, and the same with Terravore. One of each will suffice. Play 4 Mother of Runes however, and if you feel you're lacking some disruption, you can increase the numbers on both Aven Mindcensor and/or Scavenging Ooze.





Card availability is kind of is an issue with some of the cards.

I've already have 1 Temple Garden to the land list because I can't trade for or feel like paying for Savannah right now (I traded a friend of mine a good amount of cards for it, though they were cards I was never going to use). I thought about adding another one, but wasn't sure about adding another "pay 2 life to bring into play untapped" card. Though I could just do the same thing I currently doing with TG is fetching it at the end of my opponent's turn and not pay the life.

If I add another Temple Garden what do you recommend that I cut?


My reasoning for running 2 of Gaddock Teeg in the MD is if the one on the board gets killed, I can bring another one out without having to use Eternal Witness to bring it back from the graveyard. Might not be the best reason, but if a better reason can be brought up for only keeping 1 in the MD, then maybe I'll change it out.

I'm not sure about adding another MoM, I know my reasoning actually is a reason for adding the 4th, but I never really draw her.


I was actually thinking about adding another Scavenging Ooze. I got my first one today in the mail from ebay. I've been trying to get them for less than $17, but that isn't too easy to do. I also have another Aven Mindcensor that I can add if needed.


My reasoning for having 2 of Terravore is to have 2 big dudes along with KotR. Unless it's early game, I never really draw Terravore and think it was a wasteful draw.
I know the main fatty is supposed to be KotR but in case it gets Extirpated, I got back up that isn't a 1-of.


Thanks for the feedback. It's definitely appreciated and I'll give what you said some thought.

xfxf
03-09-2012, 11:02 AM
I'm no expert on the deck but how's playing 2 Mindcensors is better than playing 2 Thalias maindeck. You can't tutor for either but at least Thalia can also slow down Burn.

TheXile
03-09-2012, 04:45 PM
I'm no expert on the deck but how's playing 2 Mindcensors is better than playing 2 Thalias maindeck. You can't tutor for either but at least Thalia can also slow down Burn.

Mindcensor is brutal against a LOT of the legacy mana bases. Thalia is a great card, but turn 2 Mindcensor in response to them cracking a fetch can often be game over.

mini1337s
03-11-2012, 05:31 PM
So, uhhh... did anyone else just buy a Loyal Retainers? :)

Philipp2293
03-11-2012, 05:45 PM
Still got mine from the Survival days. ;)

mini1337s
03-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Still got mine from the Survival days. ;)
Does Fauna Shaman/Loyal Retainers/Elesh Norn seem good enough? I'm going to try it out, because it seems like it would stomp the mirror.
T1 Mom
T2 Fauna Shaman
T3 Cradle/Retainers/Elesh Norn?
That's a fun dream :P

Philipp2293
03-11-2012, 05:57 PM
I can definitely see the merits of having access to a critter tutor. But in that case I would consider a 2/1 split of Thalia and Mindcensor. Also the Linvalas from the SB look sweet.

TheKingslayer
03-11-2012, 06:01 PM
I went 6-3 yesterday at the GP. I lost had to mull to four against a u/w stoneforge deck early one games two and three :( I was then smashed by a loyal retainers/elesh-norn game one against the mirror. I then lost against another u/w stoneforge from hands with very little pressure and my stupid decision to not mulligan more. Thus, I was pushed out of the day two competition.

No, I won't be buying loyal retainers. It's awesome against the mirror, but I feel that it sacrifices most of the benefits of playing maverick against the rest of the field. If I wanted to hate out maverick, I wouldn't play maverick. (Keep in mind this is coming from the maverick guy who lost to the other maverick guy) Perhaps I'm only bitter.

lyracian
03-11-2012, 06:16 PM
So, uhhh... did anyone else just buy a Loyal Retainers? :)At a hundred bucks or more each; no. It is a fun combo, but it does not seem worth the investment.

Fade
03-11-2012, 06:19 PM
I went 6-3 yesterday at the GP. I lost had to mull to four against a u/w stoneforge deck early one games two and three :( I was then smashed by a loyal retainers/elesh-norn game one against the mirror. I then lost against another u/w stoneforge from hands with very little pressure and my stupid decision to not mulligan more. Thus, I was pushed out of the day two competition.

No, I won't be buying loyal retainers. It's awesome against the mirror, but I feel that it sacrifices most of the benefits of playing maverick against the rest of the field. If I wanted to hate out maverick, I wouldn't play maverick. (Keep in mind this is coming from the maverick guy who lost to the other maverick guy) Perhaps I'm only bitter.

I was also playing G/W at the GP and went 6-3. I ended up losing to RUG Delver in Round One after he plays turn 1 and 2 Delvers that had flipped the next turn and raced my stoneforge for Jitte in game 1 and game 2 was Delver, flip, waste a Savannah, waste a Savannah (I did not have fetchlands, my opener had a wasteland and 2x savannah).

In Round 4 I was matched up against storm and he won the roll and proceeded to ad nauseum. He leads off with a duress and I scoop knowing what he had in his hand and not wanting to know what I was playing. Game 2 I assembled a lock with Ethersworn Canonist and Gaddock Teeg for the win and in game 3 we both mulled to 5 and I had to keep the 2 land noble, mother, ooze hand. He was able to go off on turn 3. He ended up making day 2.

Round 8 I was matched against U/W and won game 1 very easily. Game 2 lasted forever and he was able to grind it out after a wrath of god cleared the board. Game three we only had 10 minutes left and we decided to play quicker as to not draw and knock us both out. He ended up being able to clear my board with swords and snapcaster. The next turn he vendilion cliqued and I lost tempo and was knocked out. He also made day 2 like my round 4 opponent.

GP: Indy was awesome and I got to meet ruckus in person after he beat a kid that plays at my local store playing U/W.

On a side note I just got my second Mint English Imperial Recruiter this weekend!

mini1337s
03-11-2012, 06:25 PM
At a hundred bucks or more each; no. It is a fun combo, but it does not seem worth the investment.

I was able to scoop one up at $115 BiN. It's certainly not cheap, but hey, that's Magic.

TheKingslayer
03-11-2012, 08:38 PM
I think it's gimmicky and loses a lot of power in not being a surprise anymore. It was an awesome call for the meta, as it certainly paid off, but the list I played against didn't seem to have the zenith package and certainly didn't have the stone forge package. It was a nice surprise, but I can't really see it doing all that well, for long, if everyone starts seeing fauna shamans and Elesh running around.

mini1337s
03-11-2012, 09:33 PM
I think it's gimmicky and loses a lot of power in not being a surprise anymore. It was an awesome call for the meta, as it certainly paid off, but the list I played against didn't seem to have the zenith package and certainly didn't have the stone forge package. It was a nice surprise, but I can't really see it doing all that well, for long, if everyone starts seeing fauna shamans and Elesh running around.

The beauty is that it is protected by Mom. Mother of Runes + Elesh Norn, is pretty difficult for most decks to deal with.

TheKingslayer
03-11-2012, 10:33 PM
Of course it is. It's extremely powerful, but what aggro matchup are you afraid of besides the mirror?

CorpT
03-11-2012, 10:51 PM
I played Adam Cai round 9 when we were both 7-1 and he absolutely destroyed me with Elesh Norn. It really stomps the mirror. He didn't even need to Retainer it in. Cradle + mana dudes was more than enough.

TheKingslayer
03-11-2012, 11:01 PM
Then I played him right before you when we were 6-1. I was shocked to watch him bin her game 1. After I called a judge over to read the oracle text off the Chinese version, I knew I was absolutely fucked.

Koby
03-12-2012, 10:01 AM
Finished 12-3 at the GP with 73/75 of the list linked in my signature. Lost three matches: Yurchuck's Stoneblade with 2 Elspeth in Round 7, Belcher in Round 9, and the bubble in Round 15 against Dan Jordan's list in Game 3. His list didn't have much advantage over mine from the main deck and played more Elspeth and ran Gut Shot plus Path to Exile. Mull to five on the draw with a one lander made it a blowout after he removal'd/Wasted me on turn 2. Thems the breaks.

I wouldn't change anything about the deck at this point except for some flex/meta slots. Gut shot is an interesting answer for both the mirror and Delver so it might help out. Report coming in the next week.

-Jacob OUT.

toor
03-12-2012, 10:53 AM
Won a GPT. Changed a bit for a GP based on much higher prescences of dredge and Maverick then intially anticipated.

Lost my feature match but barely made Day 2(and bombed out).

Gave my decklist to Pascal who changed about ~5 cards and top 8ed. I think my version/s were very good for the tournament. He mentioned that he should of won his quarters against martell but he played poorly (can't confirm cause I was on my way home).

We were something like 6-0 against the "mirror" on the weekend.

I still think everyone runs way too little lands but maybe I just don't have enough gamble.

-Lucas

DrHealex
03-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Ran the ol' Punishing Mav at gp Indy with a side board of
2 choke, 2 enlightened tutor, 1 worship, 1 wheel of sun and moon, 1 phyrexian metamorph (allstar), 1 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Thorn of Amethyst, 1 crucible of worlds, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 ethersworn canonist, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 elspeth, knigth-errant, 1 something i cant for the life of me remember right now here at work.
Rnd 1 Bye
Rnd 2 Bye
Rnd 3 (2-0) Rug Tempo : a well time choke gm2 while under loamed wasteland lock (2 basics ftw)
Rnd 4 (0-2) Bant Blade: couldnt draw the threats game 1 vs triple knight, game 2 couldnt draw enough threats or my grove vs his removal while crucible wastand locking him. Stoned B-skull wins.
Rnd 5 (2-0) Mono White Blade: powerless vs my removal.
Rnd 6 (2-0) GW Maverick: Removal ROAR!
Rnd 7(2-0) Punishing Maverick: maindeck bog + pfire vs knights swings g1, g2 crucible lock + pfire up + equips + big beats.
Rnd 8 (2-1) Dredge: G1 die turn 2. G2 win via thorn + teeg + crypt + bog. G3 he has me dead but I take a dishonorable win by an upgraded mistrigger regarding bridge (prior mistrigger warning, failling to remove 1 of 2 bridges after discarding a bridge and firestorming my guys g2 , making zombies after a resolved therapy g3)
Rnd 9 (1-2) Shoal and Tell: G1 prog eats me, g2 prog dies to metamorph, g3 prog dies to metamorph and a fortunate brainstorm gets him shoal and vines of vastwood for his prog in hand and active inkmoth to battle my active pridemage a turn before death. FUN GAME!
DAY 2
Rnd 10 (0-2) Sneak and Show: I play this badly, g1 drop knight instead over batterskull on show and tell and dont win race (he drops prog), g2 he shows in a sneak to sneak in an emrakul i kill sneak with pridemade and sac everything but a hierarch (should have left the teeg)
Rnd 11 (2-0) Dredge
Rnd 12 (2-1) Dredge: Won g1 due to md bog and vry bad dredges, won g3 due to hate + karakas when he wiped my board with elesh.
Rnd 13 (2-0) All Foil Merfolk: g1 was epic with me a turn away from dead (lvled commander, kira, reejery) at 1 and me simply outplaying him + plus savage punishing fire rips to kill his cursecather chump to kill him with giant knight. G2 he mulligans, he plays waste + relic, i play plains, he draws and passes.. Ouch, I play mystic for batterskull, he draws and scoops with submerge and mindharness in hand and no island in sight.
Rnd 14 (1-2) UW stoneblade: G1 i win with too many threats and answers, g2 i mull to an all lander 5(dbl waste), he mulls to 4 for an all lander. BLUE comes out on top, g3 get screwd on white and unanswered hardcasted bskull wins it.
Rnd 15 (0-2) Rug tempo: piolted by the ever competent Mark Sun. G1 ok4lander.... Drew 6 turns of land and died to mongoose, goyfs, delver, and burn. G2 mull to an awkward 6 (zenith, savanah, arbor, knight, ooze, hierarch) draw zenith and taiga, he has a strong mana denial/removal hand and kills me with the usual.
FINISH (10-5) 80th

maktus
03-13-2012, 10:19 AM
What do you think of using Dust Elemental in SB against mirror or deed/wrath decks?

BlackStarDeceiver
03-13-2012, 11:13 AM
I think Elspeth is superior in any way, if you want to toy around though try out Parallax Wave.

Nik842
03-13-2012, 01:25 PM
I was looking through cards online and I came across Tangle and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on the card were. It almost seems like it could be playable though in the SB, not MD. It could help against other aggro decks & the mirror. If we have no creatures it would help us out for a turn or 2 to get something on the board (creature of removal), or if we did have a board full of creatures, it would give us 2 turns of potentially not blockers to attack.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/213.jpg

Machahiko
03-13-2012, 01:47 PM
It's just extremely bad when compared to.. say, dueling grounds?

maurobad2k4
03-13-2012, 01:48 PM
I was looking through cards online and I came across Tangle and I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on the card were. It almost seems like it could be playable though in the SB, not MD. It could help against other aggro decks & the mirror. If we have no creatures it would help us out for a turn or 2 to get something on the board (creature of removal), or if we did have a board full of creatures, it would give us 2 turns of potentially not blockers to attack.



It seems terrible. Too narrow, too situational and usually will be a waste of sideboard space. I guess running more remove in the Sb will be way better than this.

Nik842
03-13-2012, 02:40 PM
It's just extremely bad when compared to.. say, dueling grounds?

I wouldn't really want to play dueling grounds. I wouldn't want to limit my own combat to one creature attacking.
I'd probably use DG in a control or stax deck. I'm sure the card doesn't fit into the deck list of either deck, but I feel like it would work better in those styles.

BlackStarDeceiver
03-13-2012, 05:10 PM
The Gut Shot approach might be worth it. Saving STP for real threats and playing tempo like. Seems at least better than this :D

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-13-2012, 05:53 PM
Running Gut Shot when you could go blue and get Submerge sounds so terrible it makes my eyes bleed.

Nik842
03-13-2012, 06:02 PM
Running Gut Shot when you could go blue and get Submerge sounds so terrible it makes my eyes bleed.

And if your opponent doesn't control any forests?
I'm not saying I'm for Gut shot, but it works better than putting the card back on top of the person's library.

I'm not sure if you were being serious with submerge or not.

Koby
03-13-2012, 06:22 PM
I think I would still rather play unconditional removal in the form of Path to Exile. Gut Shot is not as versatile and Submerge is very narrow. Oblivion Ring was very good for me all weekend at the Grand Prix, specifically against Planeswalkers and creatures.

defector
03-13-2012, 06:40 PM
I just played the GP Indy, not an amazing day, 5-4. Two of my losses were to U/R Delver decks. I felt really behind in those games. I even lost one with a resolved COP:Red, but my only mana was a Horizon Canopy. That sucked. I've only been playing the deck for a few months and was under tested in that MU. Does anyone have any insight about playing it, is it worth more sb slots? It seemed like it was aimed right at G/w, but I wish my sample was larger. Anyway, any ideas, similar experiences or good strat to pound them?

Koopa
03-13-2012, 07:01 PM
Hey guys! I know I normally don't post here (quite the lurker I am) but since I did well at the GP I would share my report with you guys :).

I got 64th (whew!) at the GP going 10-3-2. It was a LONG two days but I had a great time! Here is the list I played:

Creatures(24)
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Thrun, the Last Troll

Spells(13)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands(23)
4x Savannah
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Plains

Sideboard(15)
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Path to Exile
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Choke
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Serenity
1x Stony Silence
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Tower of the Magistrate

I will talk about the changes to the deck at the the bottom, but here are the matchups:

Round 1: Bant Maverick
Game 1: I bring the beats with a Knight of the Reliquary and win.

Game 2: We have a long game that involves us both having huge boards. He eventually gets a Jace and slowly buries me in CA.

Game 3: Another long game, we go to time.

0-0-1

Round 2: The Dumbest Deck Ever AKA TurboFog

Game 1: He plays some Mines, I Qasali them, but can never deal enough damage through his 100 fogs. It eventually becomes unwinnable and I scoop to try and win game 2.

Game 2: I don't win because this matchup is unwinnable. Way to bring a deck that can't possibly beat anything :/

0-1-1

So now I have to win out, great...

Round 3: Nic Fit

Game 1: I resolve an early Thrun and give it a Sword of Light and Shadow. He resolves a Gravy Train but I have Maze for his train and I was able to recur everything back with Sword from an early Deed. I win the race.

Game 2: An early Elspeth wins the game for me. Deed is pretty bad against her ;)

1-1-1

Round 4: UW Stoneblade

Game 1: Turn 1 Mom and Teeg just crush him. He's never in the game.

Game 2: Elspeth runs away with the game. This matchup is very favorable.

2-1-1

Round 5: RUG Delver

Game 1: He beats me with a great hand of Delver, Goyf, Snapcaster, and 3 Bolts.

Game 2: He Submerges my Noble 3 times, I am stuck on 3 mana every turn. Eventually the Noble sticks and I resolve Thrun to block his Goyf all day. Eventually Jitte wins the game.

Game 3: I smash him with an aggressive hand and Jitte.

3-1-1

Round 6: UW Stoneblade

Nothing much to say. Teeg does his work and he can't be Thrun. Choke gives me a free win here too.

4-1-1

Round 7: Doomsday
He reveals a Lion's Eye while shuffling, I know he is one Combo.

Game 1: I keep a good hand against combo but he combo off pretty quickly and kills me.

Game 2: I resolve an early Thalia coupled with Teeg and Revoker naming Lion's Eye. His hand hand is 3 Lion's Eye.

Game 3: He plays Drought of Night, I have a Teeg. I beat him down with it and a Noble. Eventually I resolve a huge Knight and he can't find the answer he is looking for.

5-1-1

Round 8: UB Tempo/Control

Game 1: He resolves and early Bob but draws nothing and I kill him with a huge Knight and a MoM protecting it.

Game 2: I beat him down but he resolves a Damnation. I lose.

Game 3: I have MoM, Teeg, Knight, and Ooze. The guy next to him keeps bumping him with the chair. He get's really mad and misses a key block on the Teeg. He concedes after he is so tilted.

6-1-1

Round 9: Dredge

Game 1: He mulls to 5 and plays a Careful Study. I waste his only land. I have turn 3 Ooze and just beat him.

Game 2: Same thing happens except I have a Bojuka Bog for good measure.

So I made Day 2 after having to win seven straight matches and I was exhausted. Went to Denny's and then back to the hotel to sleep, especially since we lost an hour that night do to the time change. Anyway, I got up for Day 2 and was ready to play some more Magic!

Round 10: GWr Maverick

Game 1: He has land one land, Noble, and arbor. I plow his Noble, untap, draw Jitte, and blow him out.

Game 2: We have a long drawn out game that he ends up winning after he has a bigger Knight and resolves and Ooze.

Game 3: Again we have a stand off but he pulls ahead with Life from the Loam. I try to put a Sword on a Noble but he GUT SHOTS it! I end up losing to his Sword of Body and Minded Knight.

7-2-1

Round 11: Bant Stoneblade

Like my Day 1 game we split games 1 and 2 after we smash each other and game 3 we have a long grindy game and draw :/

7-2-2

Round 12: UW Stoneblade

Like Day 1, this matchup is a breeze. Thrun, Choke, Elspeth, Teeg. All of these cards smash them.

8-2-2

Round 13: ThopterBalance

Game 1: I beat him down but he sets up the combo. I am able to Ooze his Sword away. I keep recurring Pridemage and get there.

Game 2: I bring in Choke but his lands are 3 artifact lands, plains, plains, mox. I go with the Pridemage plan again and prevent him from comboing off.

9-2-2

Round 14: ThopterSword (No Balance)

Game 1: He get's the combo online.

Game 2: I Serenity him and blow him out. I am able to Qasali away his Ensnaring Bridge. Sword of Light and Shadow does some serious work.

Game 3: Choke gives me a free win after I waste his artifact land leaving him with two moxen to my recurring Pridemage.

10-2-2

Round 15: RUG Delver

Game 1: My opening hand is 5 Lands, Elspeth, Plow. I mull into no lands. I mull into no lands again. I keep my 4 card hand on the play of Zenith, Knight, Fetch, Fetch. I play Zenith for Arbor, he plays Delver. I tank and decide to run out Knight as if he had Bolt he would have killed my Arbor. He reveals Bolt off of Delver. I draw another Zenith and Zenith for Knight. I race him but he plays two more Delver and I can't win.

Game 2: I mull again and he has the dream RUG Delver hand. I stabilize at two life and he rips Snapcaster for Chain Lightning.

10-3-2

Tough loss at the end made me a bit angry as I am already favored but lost to the crappy end of variance. Still, for my first Day 2 I felt pretty good especially since I don't have a real playtest group and have to grind games out on Cockatrice. After my game a guy walked up to my table and said "Koopa?" I look up and the guy extends his hand and say "Sup, I'm CorpT." We exchanged a few words and it was really cool to see someone I basically talk to every day for the first time in real life. He seems like a cool guy and a great Magic player. '

Deck Changes:
-As for changes to the deck, Sword of Fire and Ice was TERRIBLE. I already cut it for Body and Mind and could not have been happier.
-Enlightened Tutor was really unimpressive outside of tutoring for Serenity against my Thopter opponents. I am not sure it is worth it.
-Thalia was pretty good all day, I think a 3rd one of her somewhere in my 75 would have been good.
-Gut Shot by my Round 10 opponent seems insane right now. It kills: Delver, MoM, Arbor, Noble, Explorer (on your turn to get the free mana), other Thalia, Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, Clique just to name a few. The card is TECH.
-Thrun was also insane all day, I am playing one in the MD for sure.

Props:
-Making Day 2
-Making some money!
-Thalia for being a great inclusion
-Sword of Light and Shadow for being the best equipment all weekend
-Thrun for doing a ton of work against nearly every opponent
-Meeting CorpT!
-My girlfriend for putting up with my hobby even when she hates being bored all day.

Slops:
-Losing to my favorable matchup knocking me out of Top 32 contention.
-People playing Bant, your deck always goes to time...
-Playing a TurboFog deck...
-The guy who tilted my opponent in Round 8.
-The dicks who broke in to Malacoda's car and stole all of his stuff. He is a great user here on MTGS and it sucs that this would happen to him. I hope they find that dick who stole your stuff. You can read what happened here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23335-An-Open-Note-to-the-People-Who-Stole-10K-of-Cards-From-Me-and-My-Friends).
-Sword of Fire and Ice for being actually the worst card ever.

mini1337s
03-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Great report Koopa.
I'm starting to lose faith in the SFM package (and especially in Sword of Fire and Ice). Jitte is amazing versus most decks, but I find myself siding out 3x Stoneforge, 1x B-Skull, 1x Sword of F+I most games. I'm usually bringing in effects like Thalia (some sort of roadblock like Ethersworn in my pre-Dark Ascension build). At this point, I'm testing without the Stoneforge package, replacing 3x SFM 1x SFI and 1x B-Skull with 3x Thalia, upping my Jitte count to 2, and upped my Scavenging Ooze to 2.
I'm also going to go crazy and try the Fauna/Retainers/Elesh Norn package, but am waiting for the cards.

Is Thalia strong enough to be a 3x inclusion in the GW version of the deck now? I laughed when I saw GWr versions in the SCG Top 16 running 3x of it and P-Fire, but I remembered all the good players were at the GP

Koopa
03-13-2012, 08:24 PM
Great report Koopa.
I'm starting to lose faith in the SFM package (and especially in Sword of Fire and Ice). Jitte is amazing versus most decks, but I find myself siding out 3x Stoneforge, 1x B-Skull, 1x Sword of F+I most games. I'm usually bringing in effects like Thalia (some sort of roadblock like Ethersworn in my pre-Dark Ascension build). At this point, I'm testing without the Stoneforge package, replacing 3x SFM 1x SFI and 1x B-Skull with 3x Thalia, upping my Jitte count to 2, and upped my Scavenging Ooze to 2.
I'm also going to go crazy and try the Fauna/Retainers/Elesh Norn package, but am waiting for the cards.

Is Thalia strong enough to be a 3x inclusion in the GW version of the deck now? I laughed when I saw GWr versions in the SCG Top 16 running 3x of it and P-Fire, but I remembered all the good players were at the GP

After this weekend at the GP I don't think I will cut SFM. Her grabbing Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow was just very good. Even if my opponent killed her before I could cheat in the equipment (which is fine as long as it isn't Batterskull, a card I hate anyway) it just meant that they had one less removal for my actual threats. Sword of Fire and Ice is just pretty bad right now. Having pro-red isn't relevant and you want a pro-green sword. You can make an argument for Feast and Famine in the Punishing versions, but then you having two pro-black swords (since Light&Shadown is a lock IMO).

I think the biggest mistake people have is that Batterskull is still seeing play in Maverick.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-13-2012, 08:33 PM
And if your opponent doesn't control any forests?
I'm not saying I'm for Gut shot, but it works better than putting the card back on top of the person's library.

I'm not sure if you were being serious with submerge or not.

You've probably never had a Knight Submerged. It's a huge tempo swing. It's also very frequently a straight up removal spell given the huge number of shuffle effects Knight decks tend to run.

As for the question of them not having any Forests; the matchups where you want additional removal and where your opponent runs forests isn't 100%, but it's certainly very broad and covers the majority of cases, particularly of tough matchups.

Gut Shot by comparison can't do anything to a Knight, and Path to Exile is liable to backfire very badly against many decks.

defector
03-13-2012, 08:41 PM
Great day with mav! I don't know about Gut Shot, maybe its that good. Our life total is one of our liabilities as is, so I am leery about it. I think we need something that kills Goblin Guide as well. Just not Path, I pathed a guide and the dude got a basic mountain and then fireblasted me. That was pretty cool, for him. We can't afford to lose the mana resource race. SoFI was awesome for me all day, its really hard to cut that when we are soft to burn and some of the u/r delver decks. Plus we have so little draw, I think that card is just too good. Anyway, congrats on making day 2!

Jak
03-14-2012, 02:02 AM
I'm playing with Fire and Ice right now (alongside Jitte and Light and Shadow), and am definitely going to switch over to Body and Mind. It provides better protection colors and is much stronger in matchups that I need it. Fire and Ice is good all around, but I just never, ever want to tutor it up.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-14-2012, 02:08 AM
I'm not sure why people want pro-blue exactly. You're so scared shitless that they're going to be using their Jace the Mind Sculptor to bounce a dork every turn? You're terrified of them blocking with Snapcaster? Is there a scenario where Delver is being thrown in front of a Knight that you're not going to win anyway?

I mean all things being equal, pro-blue is great, sure, but it's less relevant than pro-black for reasons of Germs alone, and SoFF has a hugely swingy connect ability where SoBM can easily shoot yourself in the foot by filling up their yard, which it turns out is a resource a lot of Legacy decks take advantage of pretty well.

I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

Arew
03-14-2012, 02:24 AM
I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

I agree with this. In a format where we are maximizing the effectiveness of the cards in your graveyard is of huge importance, I don't think we can afford to run SoBM. Instant-Threshold, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster targets, growing Goyfs, growing opposing KOTRs, etc.. make the card too risky to run at the moment, as any of these things can result in a huge tempo swing in your opponents favor.

I think that SoFF, while the tempo swing isn't as big as it is in more controlish decks, it is big enough compared to SoBM that if you are valuing Pro-Green over Pro-Blue, you should be running it. Having two Pro-Black swords is kind of awkward, but ultimately, I think you have to consider what you are more worried of, Burn and getting things bounced by Jace/Submerge? Or attacking through a wall of green creatures?

Jak
03-14-2012, 02:24 AM
I'm not sure why people want pro-blue exactly. You're so scared shitless that they're going to be using their Jace the Mind Sculptor to bounce a dork every turn? You're terrified of them blocking with Snapcaster? Is there a scenario where Delver is being thrown in front of a Knight that you're not going to win anyway?

I mean all things being equal, pro-blue is great, sure, but it's less relevant than pro-black for reasons of Germs alone, and SoFF has a hugely swingy connect ability where SoBM can easily shoot yourself in the foot by filling up their yard, which it turns out is a resource a lot of Legacy decks take advantage of pretty well.

I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

If I am playing against a deck with Stoneforge and Batterskull, I would get SoLaS...

Body and Mind at least protects from bounce like Submerge (that card you just said was really good), Jace, and can be randomly relevant on Teeg or Canonist against combo. It makes bodies too.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-14-2012, 02:26 AM
Yes, Submerge is really good because it's free so you don't have to be worried about being tapped out when you put the guy they spent two mana equipping back on top of their deck. So not really a big argument for SoBM.

Koby
03-14-2012, 02:38 AM
Lets break it down by logic and reductions:

SoBM gives Pro:g: and Pro:u:, which :g: creatures would you want to walk past? Goyfs, Mongoose, or the mirror. In the case of the first two, Knight is just bigger regardless. In the latter, Pro:g::u: is next to useless and works against you by growing their Knights. The triggered abilities are weak and don't provide added value whatsoever; just another creature (wait you did connect right? they don't have blockers then) and a not quite useful Dredge 10.

SoFI gives Pro:r: and Pro:u:, which is admittedly self defeating if protecting from Lightning Bolt. However, the key use for this one isn't the protection, but rather than two triggers. The damage source is still colorless and provides another way to remove Mother of Runes, and also more importantly, provides immediate damage in a racing condition - two more than any other sword including Jitte. This is used against decks that typically don't have creatures such as Combo, Show & Tell, etc.

SoLS gives Pro:w: and Pro:b:, which are the strongest reasons for running the sword. The triggers sometimes do matter, both in recursion and life gain. However the protections are more important than the triggers for this sword still.

SoWP is unplayable in Legacy.

SoFF gives Pro:g: and Pro:b:, which again are pretty weak as mentioned above regarding green. This sword gives a good disruption against decks trying to combo you out, and provides you more mana. I doubt the protection is relevant enough compared to its triggers - much like SoFI.

Jak
03-14-2012, 03:51 AM
IBA, will you be writing a tourney report? I'm interested in hearing how the planeswalkers worked out, mostly garruk.

Asthereal
03-14-2012, 07:21 PM
Funny how everyone always disagrees on the Swords subject.

I would like to say the following:

SoFaI
Pro's: Very nice when it connects. Damage is always good, card draw also. Completely destroys Merfolk and Goblins. Pro blue is awesome against Jace, Delver, Clique, Mind Harness, Submerge if they draw it after you've equipped.
Con's: No one plays Merfs and Gobbos nowadays. Awkward protections make it hard to get this sword connecting.

SoFaF
Pro's: Protection from big beasts, Germs and black removal is nice. Discard can be useful, so can untapping your lands.
Con's: Connecting doesn't change the game state. Untapping is often unnecessary since you are already doing well when you connect with creature+sword. Discard is chosen by the opponent, and therefor often doesn't stop combo players (apart from the fact that a combo player usually kills you before you connect with a sword).

SoLaS
Pro's: Protection from all relevant main deck removal is very good. Protection from Germs, Mystics, Moms and so on also. Three life is never bad and returning a creature can be a game winner.
Con's: None, really. Pretty sweet thing, this is.

SoBaM
Pro's: Protection from Jace, Delver, Clique, Mind Harness, Submerge and big beasts. Actually, this has protection from RUG Delver, since the +2/+2 usually gets the critter out of burn range. Connecting gets you a wolf, that in return can be used as blocker, so you can more often attack despite your opponent having a counterattack ready. The milling can sometimes mill relevant stuff, and Ranger/Hierarch+SoBaM is a four turn clock instead of a six turn one.
Con's: Milling can be a drawback against some decks.

SoWaP
Pro's: Completely destroys Zoo.
Con's: The above mentioned is a bit narrow. :tongue:

It all depends on what you want from your sword really. In the mirror, I lost against a SoBaM because he got a wolf that blocked my hit-for-the-win. Well actually he misplayed and I still won, but if I would have sat at his side of the table, I would have had a proper token and not have forgot about it. In the mirror, I like SoBaM better than SoFaF. Also, a connecting SoBaM completely kills RUG Delver, which is rather popular right now. The milling is a disadvantage in this matchup, but in return you get a 2/2 wolf per turn for defense and a 4 turn clock. The milling won't even matter before he is dead. Against that flashback token thing, you just side it out or get SoLaS and proceed to win yor game.

Furthermore, I think SoLaS is the best choice right now because it's versatile and has the best protections. SoFaI is brilliant against decks that I don't see very often, and SoFaF is in my opinion too cutesy. The connecting abilities are nice but don't help me win a losing battle. And that is the material point: What does your sword do when you are in an equal or bad position? If your position is winning, any sword will do. If your position if fckd, which sword would help the most?

I would recommend:
1. SoLaS
2. SoBaM
(3. SoFaI)
(4. SoFaF)
And since Zoo isn't that popular right now, I would recommend you don' t play SoWaP at all.

But if above mentioned arguments make you decide otherwise, that's fine too. Just remember that a sword should be good when your board position is equal or bad. hen add up matchups you expect and do the math.

hukstor
03-14-2012, 09:53 PM
I actually did play the green sun package along with Elesh Norn. People I tested with the night before also thought that it would be a good surprise (but not good if they knew about it), but even though they knew it was coming everyone I tested the "mirror" with couldn't do much to stop it. I think Elesh just completely stomps the mirror, and it'll gain a lot of value with linger souls catching on. I also beat several linger souls matchups with her. She's not inconsistent like people claim, as I hard cast her without a cradle several times. I was running around the room 30 min before the tournament trying to figure out a 60th card, and Gerry told me to add a 24th land. That was probably the best addition to the deck. Here's the list:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/day2#2

lyracian
03-15-2012, 08:35 AM
SoFaI
Pro's: Very nice when it connects. Damage is always good, card draw also. Completely destroys Merfolk and Goblins.

SoBaM
Pro's: Protection from Jace, Mind Harness, Submerge (yes they can draw it after you equip too, so it DOES matter), big beasts.
...
Con's: Milling can be a drawback against some decks.

Nice summary. However I find it odd that you listed all the good blue stuff that BaM protects you from and did not put any of it down for FaI? They both protect you from Delver and Snapcaster and random stuff like Jin-Gitaxias and Sphinx. The other con of both of them is they fall off when your opponent is playing Painter.

My view is that the first sword you pick should have protection from Blue, and the second should be based on what you think the meta is going to be like.

DrHealex
03-15-2012, 09:15 AM
Personally, I think the first sword is Jitte :p
The second should be light and shadow since we run many utillity creautes that will die and getting more use out of them puts it over the top.
The third will most likely be batterskull. Since turn 3 batterskull "just wins", also dropping this in via show and tell means you can race a progenitus!
I can also understand why non-punishing mavericks would want fire and ice in order to at least get SOME recursive removal.

CorpT
03-15-2012, 10:03 AM
Personally, I think the first sword is Jitte :p
The second should be light and shadow since we run many utillity creautes that will die and getting more use out of them puts it over the top.
The third will most likely be batterskull. Since turn 3 batterskull "just wins", also dropping this in via show and tell means you can race a progenitus!
I can also understand why non-punishing mavericks would want fire and ice in order to at least get SOME recursive removal.

Batterskull was not that impressive for me. It doesn't provide any protections and is a bit of a liability if they kill your SFM. I never felt the need for it with Jitte in the deck.

Koby
03-15-2012, 10:50 AM
Batterskull has its uses in some metagames that pack a ton of tier 2 decks like tribal and burn. In more developped metagames cutting it makes more sense since the other swords and Jitte are better. Jitte really is the most useful equipment however. It doesn't really matter which Sword of X/Y you run provided it has utility for you. This isn't as big of an issue as were making it to be.

Asthereal
03-15-2012, 12:41 PM
It is true that the question which sword is best is not all that important, since in 80% of the cases, just any sword will do. But we need to discuss something, right?

I agree that Jitte is the best equipment out there. I disagree to Batterskull as third equipment. It can be good, but 5 mana is just too much. I can win if I have 5 mana. I refuse to spend it on a 4/4 lifelinker. If Tribal becomes popular again, I will include it in my sideboard, because they have difficulties killing the SFM, but that's it.

I'll edit my earlier post, noting that pro-blue advantages obviously count for both SoBaM and SoFaI.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-15-2012, 01:15 PM
If you're not finding any utility to a given Sword outside of +2/+2, then just cut SFM for more Jittes and lower your mana curve.



IBA, will you be writing a tourney report? I'm interested in hearing how the planeswalkers worked out, mostly garruk.

He was great, I'll be getting to the report probably tomorrow.

Koby
03-15-2012, 07:26 PM
Testing the Elesh/Retainers build right now - might rock it for SCG Sacramento this weekend. Anyone who's played with it before - any tips?

Koby
03-15-2012, 10:07 PM
My tournament report for Grand Prix Indy is up.

Follow the links (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23360-16th-at-Indianapolis-All-of-the-Good-Things!&goto=newpost)

majikal
03-15-2012, 10:12 PM
Testing the Elesh/Retainers build right now - might rock it for SCG Sacramento this weekend. Anyone who's played with it before - any tips?
Honestly, just play it the same way you normally would, only instead of fetching equipment, ditch your more situational dudes for better ones. And if you get the chance, Elesh Norn them.

I won so many games with Bant Survival (pre-Vengevine) just being an aggro deck with superior card selection, and this package seems to do the same thing. I hardly ever chained more than one activation, so this honestly doesn't seem much different.

Hopo
03-16-2012, 10:23 AM
Testing the Elesh/Retainers build right now - might rock it for SCG Sacramento this weekend. Anyone who's played with it before - any tips?

I got a good share of my rating last year with somewhat this list. I wouldn't play it without Vengevines but I'm sure most of you will not include them. Now is a good time to switch Iona to Elesh Norn. Also, this list is from my first tournament with it and didn't include Gaea's Cradle but ever since it belongs here. Nowadays I would also think again the Stoneforge Mystics role in there as well as the equipment package. Two copies could be more solid.

You crush the blue decks and aggro decks so build the board accordingly.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vengevine
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windsept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Plains

-Jace cannot beat Vengevine.
-Green Sun's Zenith into Shaman into Retainers into legend is so slow that you usually don't want to do that unless the opponent is topdecking.
-Zenith into Vengevine is solid and usually also faster than getting a knight (if you need to kill fast.)
-Only two Knights since you want Fauna Shaman and Vengevines to do their work first. If you still draw a knight, awesome.
- Your God hand is Mother + Fauna Shaman +your legendary bomb + enough mana.
-Builds with 20+ creatures, Retainers and bomby legends love Summoning Trap.

Koby
03-16-2012, 11:52 AM
I tested it briefly last nite, and I'm unimpressed with the package. It takes up min 5 slots and gives you a marginal improvement in the mirror only in the late-game. All the other matchups where Elesh Norn is important are already good matchups.

I'm more excited about the Retainers/Fauna Shaman package due to Iona against the unfair decks however, since that actually shuts them down. Only trouble is that the deck is not geared to pump the combo out early enough to matter against those decks. The deck is a fragile, turn 4 Reanimator deck - and that's not impressive against Combo; and barely good against Burn.

Koby
03-16-2012, 12:57 PM
I'm going to start working on an updated Maverick primer to reboot this thread. Would people be so kind as to email me some ideas or suggestions to include? Thanks.

CorpT
03-16-2012, 02:29 PM
First, some of the auto-includes and why they're auto-includes. Why does every list start with Knight, GSZ, Mom. What makes a Maverick deck a Maverick deck.

Then, IMO, one of the things that helps make primers is the grouping of "packages". So, SFM + Equipment is a package. It doesn't need to be played, but if you play it, you probably play a decent number of it. So, group SFM + Equip together and then the differences between equip, when to use each. Then, look at the other packages. IMO, FS + Elesh + Scryb is a package. You can play Scryb without FS, but you probably wouldn't play Elesh without FS and FS without Scryb.


Then, maybe some of the alternatives. What does Blue bring? What do Black or Red bring? What are the downsides to those?

Then maybe some sideboard choices, including different packages. Tutor + targets is a package. But how big.

In reality, there are relatively few choices people are making when deciding a Maverick list. But those can be very important. Teeg main? That's a lot different than Teeg in the board.

Just some thoughts.

maurobad2k4
03-16-2012, 02:37 PM
Recently Todd Anderson published an article about this deck and talked about including a 3rd Ooze in the maindeck. What do you guys think ?
Personally it doesnt sound too terrible.

majikal
03-16-2012, 05:32 PM
Ooze is solid enough to play a third one. I think if you choose to go that route, the third Ooze takes the place of one of the flex slots in the deck where generally you see things like Silhana Ledgewalker, Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, the third Pridemage, etc.

KobeBryan
03-16-2012, 05:35 PM
Ooze is solid enough to play a third one. I think if you choose to go that route, the third Ooze takes the place of one of the flex slots in the deck where generally you see things like Silhana Ledgewalker, Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, the third Pridemage, etc.

A third ooze will require u to run a cradle. There's no way around not running a cradle now.

majikal
03-16-2012, 05:49 PM
A third ooze will require u to run a cradle. There's no way around not running a cradle now.
Why wouldn't you run a Cradle in the first place? That card is bonkers.

KobeBryan
03-16-2012, 05:53 PM
Why wouldn't you run a Cradle in the first place? That card is bonkers.

ask Iscare why he doesn't...he also runs 2 baneslayer angels. Sadly, the rest of the cards in this deck is so powerful i cannot beat it with bant aggro.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-16-2012, 06:26 PM
It boggles my mind that as soon as they added Fauna Shaman people cut a Ranger. I mean I guess the logic is that at that point it would be really obvious that you shouldn't pay an extra mana for the same effect + flying, and then the whole abominable lie would fall apart under its own weight.

@Majikal:

Because Gaea's Cradle is, in this deck, pretty much the emblematic bad player's favorite card; it is a card that is definitionally only good if you're already in a good position and does nothing, and is a Wasteland-able Forest or worse the rest of the time.

Elves wants it because the deck absolutely needs to play a lot of cards at once and hopefully an Emrakul or a really big Mirror Entity. This deck is, or at least should be, defined primarily by the independent strength of its cards. I mean if you're going to dilute that for Fauna Shaman- Elesh Norn, at least you're getting a very large upgrade in potential power out of it. Tutoring up a Gaea's Cradle so you can go insane with a Withered Wretch is not in the same neighborhood in terms of risk/reward ratios.

majikal
03-16-2012, 06:50 PM
@Majikal:

Because Gaea's Cradle is, in this deck, pretty much the emblematic bad player's favorite card; it is a card that is definitionally only good if you're already in a good position and does nothing, and is a Wasteland-able Forest or worse the rest of the time.

Elves wants it because the deck absolutely needs to play a lot of cards at once and hopefully an Emrakul or a really big Mirror Entity. This deck is, or at least should be, defined primarily by the independent strength of its cards. I mean if you're going to dilute that for Fauna Shaman- Elesh Norn, at least you're getting a very large upgrade in potential power out of it. Tutoring up a Gaea's Cradle so you can go insane with a Withered Wretch is not in the same neighborhood in terms of risk/reward ratios.
Who said anything about only using it to Ooze people? Yes, it's awesome when you can blow out their Knights, but most often it is used to cast an equipment and equip it in the same turn to break a stalemate, or accelerate into a 4 or 5-drop a turn or 2 early. Also I've won many, many games with it that otherwise I would have lost, simply by being able to Enlightened Tutor for an answer, draw it with Horizon Canopy, and then tutor up a Cradle to cast it in the same turn.

Even just playing it from your hand is bonkers. If it "only" makes 2 mana even once it's still amazing.

Hopo
03-17-2012, 03:30 AM
Because Gaea's Cradle is, in this deck, pretty much the emblematic bad player's favorite card; it is a card that is definitionally only good if you're already in a good position and does nothing, and is a Wasteland-able Forest or worse the rest of the time.


You probably have something to back that up besides your a bit silly obsession to want to do everything different than every winning list ever? It appears that everybody but you has different take on this, ergo everybody's bad but you, a position usually pursued by those known as arrogant jerks.

Do realize that if you do not get value out of something, it might also be because you don't usually see the best lines of play i.e. you might not be good enough. Not because your infrastructure sucks. You don't even seem to realize this possibility.

Cradle is even more effective if you play Vengevine. It ends games really fast.

TehGems
03-17-2012, 07:54 AM
Hi guys.
One question: given that Thalia is really powerful, and land Hierarch - Thalia Wasteland is game against many many decks, do you still think it makes sense to play Elspeth, especially as a one-of which is very randomical aside from not working well with a turn 2 Thalia? Wouldn't it be better to play more copies of gamebreaking creatures, like additional Oozes or even Thrun?

EDIT - Something like this:

4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lorenzo767
03-17-2012, 08:29 AM
Hi guys.
One question: given that Thalia is really powerful, and land Hierarch - Thalia Wasteland is game against many many decks, do you still think it makes sense to play Elspeth, especially as a one-of which is very randomical aside from not working well with a turn 2 Thalia? Wouldn't it be better to play more copies of gamebreaking creatures, like additional Oozes or even Thrun?

EDIT - Something like this:




I think 2 Thrun MD is too much, probably 1 MD + 1 SB is better, instead of the second Thrun you could play the third Qasali or a 1x Sylvan Library!
I agree with you about Eslpeth but i think it's still a card to have in SB especially vs Nic-Fit!

Thalia is really strong, it increase our worst MU like Combo, giving us a strong G1 Winning condition! Infact i'm playtesting it a lot in the P.Fire version, and i'm really appreciating it! I know that Thalia clash with P. Fire but it's not so tragic, because those are Two card that are useful in different MU, so you just need to play them differently in G1 and eventually side-Out them out G2-G3, vs Aggro except for Burn that is pretty similar to a combo deck Thalia is near to be just a 2/1 bear with first strike so we can easely side out it, at the same wasy as P.Fire vs Combo are pretty useless and make space for Surgical and Canonist!
Anyone have tested too Thalia on GWr? Any impression or suggest?

Asthereal
03-19-2012, 05:45 AM
It appears that everybody but you has different take on this

Untrue.
I also advocate against Cradle. I think there is too much RUG Tempo around to run a land that is only better than Forest when you are in a good position anyway. To break stalemates, one runs Elspeth, and the trick with eTutor getting an answer, using Canopy to draw it and then Cradle to cast it is way too situational compared to the times your mana dude was killed and Cradle gave no mana at all and the situations where Cradle gave one mana and was then Wastelanded. That happens to me all the time. So I recommend more fetch and basics, so we have a mana base we can fully rely on.

Hopo
03-19-2012, 06:30 AM
the trick with eTutor getting an answer, using Canopy to draw it and then Cradle to cast it is way too situational compared to the times your mana dude was killed and Cradle gave no mana at all and the situations where Cradle gave one mana and was then Wastelanded. That happens to me all the time.

If you play a single Cradle to tutor up, you shouldn't usually be in situations where you have a blank Cradle in play. If you really play it as a forest all the time with only one fragile creature in play, of course it ends up being mostly terrible.

Elspeth can't realiably break stalemates as you have no way to find it. When you have it, it's really good, though.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-19-2012, 12:56 PM
You probably have something to back that up besides your a bit silly obsession to want to do everything different than every winning list ever? It appears that everybody but you has different take on this, ergo everybody's bad but you, a position usually pursued by those known as arrogant jerks.

Do realize that if you do not get value out of something, it might also be because you don't usually see the best lines of play i.e. you might not be good enough. Not because your infrastructure sucks. You don't even seem to realize this possibility.

Cradle is even more effective if you play Vengevine. It ends games really fast.

Ignoring the desperate and pathetic attempts at ad hominem, lots of winning lists do not run Cradle; of the 2 lists that top 8'd at this past GP, for instance, one ran Cradle and the other did not. The one with Cradle didn't run SFM but did stick in 2x Jitte; in fact, the exact thing that I have advocated in this thread that puts me at odds with the majority of posters in this thread.

This is a forum for serious deck discussion and ridiculous appeals to the band wagon effect and lame attempts at poisoning the well by suggesting that any attempt at unorthodoxy is "arrogance" have no place.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-19-2012, 12:57 PM
@TehGems: I ran 2 Thrun when I ran straight G/W and always found it to be useful. The only matchups I really sided it out were against the unfair decks where it was just a vanilla 4/4. It certainly gives RUG and Blade Control nervous fits, much more so when you rawdraw it.

It's certainly worth thinking about the second Thrun, although space considerations may preclude it depending on what else you're trying to do.


If you play a single Cradle to tutor up, you shouldn't usually be in situations where you have a blank Cradle in play. If you really play it as a forest all the time with only one fragile creature in play, of course it ends up being mostly terrible.

Elspeth can't realiably break stalemates as you have no way to find it. When you have it, it's really good, though.

Startling idea;

Play more Elspeths.

As a general rule I'm very suspicious of people that wax about how good a card is that they run as a one of and have no way to tutor for or find reliably, and is good outside of the very late game. This has some overlap with Scryb Ranger/Gaea's Cradle, although they are tutorable, because Scryb Ranger becomes a bit ridiculous over Quirion Ranger when you're getting it at instant speed anyway for three mana, and I don't see anyone clamoring for Quirion Ranger so I think they're just in love with the faerie, and Gaea's Cradle when you have an active Knight and the board to make it good becomes largely masturbatory; you should just go win instead or whatever you're doing to over commit to the board.

It certainly applies full force to lists running 1x Sylvan Library, 1x Elspeth.

What I hear from this is that bad deck builders really like having a card in certain situations, so they run a one of and hope not to draw it except when it's relevant. They remember the games they win because they drew it at the right time, and are obviously fully able to ignore the times when it didn't do anything, or when they would've won if they could've drawn it but it's a fucking one of so they can't get one in their first fifteen turns of futile praying.

General rule of thumb:

4x- Staple element of your deck, either a central win condition or key early game play, want to have it as reliably as humanly possible.

3x- Something you want every game but rapidly loses value in multiples.

2x- Something you want exactly once a game on average.

1x- Something you can tutor for, has some functional overlap with another card in your deck, or is good in the very late game only.

Elspeth is not any of the latter things. Nor Sylvan Library.

If you thought another card had close functional overlap you could, for instance, run 1x Elspeth, 1x Garruk, or 1x Elspeth, 1x Parallax Wave to have more effects that break stalemates. Or run a Top or two as additional Sylvan Library slots. But how do people determine that they want exactly one way to manipulate their draw but anything more is sub-optimal? Don't understand the fucking logic at all.

Dzra
03-20-2012, 05:33 AM
General rule of thumb:

4x- Staple element of your deck, either a central win condition or key early game play, want to have it as reliably as humanly possible.

3x- Something you want every game but rapidly loses value in multiples.

2x- Something you want exactly once a game on average.

1x- Something you can tutor for, has some functional overlap with another card in your deck, or is good in the very late game only.

I think this is mostly a good rule of thumb, with one exception. I can see misering a card when you are never unhappy to see exactly one, but would never want to see it early or in multiples. Am I ever unhappy to topdeck an Elspeth? I doubt it. Would it be clunky in multiples? Likely.

That being said however, I would easily consider running 2 if it weren't for Thalia. I think Thalia (and mana denial) being a key strategy is a perfectly valid reason to run only 1, or even 0 Elspeth MD. Just the fact that it isn't tutorable doesn't seem entirely applicable in this case. Sylvan Library should definitely be a 2-of in the deck as it easily fits that category. A 3rd in the board wouldn't be out of question.

And for the record, I'm on board with Gaea's Cradle being underwhelming. I wouldn't ever cut Maze of Ith for it, so that means making it a possible 23rd land. That's fine, except I can think of a multitude of options I'd pick before Cradle, starting with basic Forest or a 3rd Horizon Canopy.

mastaj55555
03-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Thalia is really strong, it increase our worst MU like Combo, giving us a strong G1 Winning condition! Infact i'm playtesting it a lot in the P.Fire version, and i'm really appreciating it! I know that Thalia clash with P. Fire but it's not so tragic, because those are Two card that are useful in different MU, so you just need to play them differently in G1 and eventually side-Out them out G2-G3, vs Aggro except for Burn that is pretty similar to a combo deck Thalia is near to be just a 2/1 bear with first strike so we can easely side out it, at the same wasy as P.Fire vs Combo are pretty useless and make space for Surgical and Canonist!
Anyone have tested too Thalia on GWr? Any impression or suggest?

I agree, I've recently made the switch to thalia from mindcensor's, and thalia has been nothing but awesome. It's great for combo, opposing planeswalkers, and even hurts counter spells. However, I've dropped to punishing fires after testing, and am running pure GW. The deck just runs more smoothly.

Koby
03-20-2012, 06:42 PM
I've made some changes to my sideboard to address some changes in the metagame:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

These changes reflect the increased presence of UW/b Darkblade decks that run Lingering Souls. Their game plan revolves around trying to activate Jitte on a flyer. Both EE and a 2nd copy of Jitte help to ensure that they don't achieve this plan, as well as allowing you to remove the tokens and getting through. Sword of Light & Shadow and Pridemage now also have a higher importance in the matchup.

EE also helps out against Dredge and the occasional combo decks (EE on Zero vs LED/Moxes/Petals/Goblin tokens). I've also brought it in against a RUG Delver player. It's extra removal for Delvers, Mongoose, and Goyfs.

KobeBryan
03-20-2012, 08:12 PM
How does maverick fight decks like hivemind and imperial painter with the new goblin welder style. The imperial painter deck is pretty brutal.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-20-2012, 08:23 PM
How does maverick fight decks like hivemind and imperial painter with the new goblin welder style. The imperial painter deck is pretty brutal.

Against Imperial Painter: Fetch basics. Qasali Pridemage. Umezawa's Jitte. Aven Mindcensor. Swords to Plowshares.

Against Hivemind: Gaddock Teeg. Lose.

TheKingslayer
03-21-2012, 01:22 AM
Back in the Mental Misstep era, Storm entered a long slumber. With NO RUG's dominance, a combo deck arose- It was Hive Mind. Maverick, back then, resorted to using Angel's grace to avoid losing the game. Angel's grace can be used if Hive Mind infests your meta. Also, It can be used against storm to slow halt their combo, or buy you a turn to drop a hate bear.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-21-2012, 04:27 AM
Alternately, Mana Tithe stops the combo from working and isn't dead against other combo decks.

lordofthepit
03-21-2012, 04:45 AM
The best hate cards against Hive Mind that doesn't completely suck against the rest of the format are Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist. Thalia will require them to spend an extra mana to cast each of their pacts, and Canonist will give you a chance to blow up their Hive Minds with Qasali Pridemage.

Then pray.

Edit: Surgical Extraction is a possibility if you can fit it, which is unlikely for the majority of decks with an Enlightened Tutor package. It's effectively a counterspell against Intuition, since they rarely have mana to do anything but play it at your EOT, which gives you priority.

Koby
03-21-2012, 11:28 AM
Realistically, Combo decks comprise less than 15% of the metagame. If your metagame has a much higher concentration of Combo, then Maverick is not a good choice to play. I'm comfortable with being soft to 15% of the metagame if that means I can crush roughly 60% of the metagame decisively.

There is also the option of Black or Blue splash to help shore up those matchups. Blue is better suited and more well rounded for that approach however.

majikal
03-21-2012, 03:42 PM
I've made some changes to my sideboard to address some changes in the metagame:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

These changes reflect the increased presence of UW/b Darkblade decks that run Lingering Souls. Their game plan revolves around trying to activate Jitte on a flyer. Both EE and a 2nd copy of Jitte help to ensure that they don't achieve this plan, as well as allowing you to remove the tokens and getting through. Sword of Light & Shadow and Pridemage now also have a higher importance in the matchup.

EE also helps out against Dredge and the occasional combo decks (EE on Zero vs LED/Moxes/Petals/Goblin tokens). I've also brought it in against a RUG Delver player. It's extra removal for Delvers, Mongoose, and Goyfs.
EE is excellent at the moment with Belcher rearing its ugly heady, but I'm not sure it's needed against Esper Blade. Troll Ascetic with a sword on it utterly and completely ruins that deck.

I can get behind a Second Jitte, but I have never needed it so far.

Koby
03-21-2012, 04:48 PM
It may have been incidental, but EE served me well during the last tournament. I was able to have a somewhat decent game against Enchantress by blowing up Solitary Confinement while under Sterling Grove lock in order to alpha strike. I ended up drawing the match, but it was useful there nonetheless.

As it turns out, most of the Lingering Souls lists just cut them for SB for more removal - so I'm not sure if EE is the best for that. Sometimes, you can't anticipate players sideboarding correctly for any given matchup (and explains why I faced Nimble Mongoose in games 2/3 against RUG).

defector
03-21-2012, 09:58 PM
Show and Tell based combo decks are a serious problem for us. I don't know that we can even the odds, but we can fight them. Game one though is probably a lost cause. I bring in three Ethersworn Canonist from the board. With Thalia as a three of main and holding kotr as a snt target to grab karakas, we can deal with Emrakul and use SoLas to race Progs. In the Hive Mind game get Thalia online asap and keep Teeg in to stop them from hard casting Hive Mind. Keep mom in as an answer to slaughter pact and bring in the bog to dig for a black source. I play test Hive Mind a lot and we are way under game one, and will rarely win two straight against them, but you have to try.

RJM
03-22-2012, 12:48 AM
So, after pretty much becoming the defacto "test pilot" playing GW/x Maverick for our Legacy playtesting leading up to GP Indy (which in the end I wasn't able to attend ::sadface) ...I basically fell in love with the deck. I've been on a non-blue kick for a while, and this deck is ...well, really good.

I also always played my Junk/Rock deck extremely well in the past, so I was immediately drawn towards testing a GWb version.

I started off with Bob's, Thoughtseizes, and a couple Vindicates. They were fine, but I'm not entirely sure it's better than GW just for the small reduction in stability.

However, Thalia is the real deal, and I think the deck wants 2-3 copies of her without question. Which hurts the majority of the black splash outside of Bob, and got me thinking.

At present, I'm really digging the Thalia + Tidehollow Sculler interaction as a replacement for discard. With a Darkblast and some Thoughtseizes in the SB.

Gagehughes
03-22-2012, 10:04 AM
I believe Sylvan Library is the best card in the deck over Gaea's Cradle. Being able to ponder every turn for an initial 2 mana is ridiculous. Gaea's Cradle is good but it isn't needed for the deck to be good where the library is because you get to filter your draws and it makes your fetches better. My current list is:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Horizon Cannopy
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Plains

randomly.anonymous
03-22-2012, 12:14 PM
I believe Sylvan Library is the best card in the deck over Gaea's Cradle. Being able to ponder every turn for an initial 2 mana is ridiculous. Gaea's Cradle is good but it isn't needed for the deck to be good where the library is because you get to filter your draws and it makes your fetches better.

Why would that matter tho? It's not like Cradle and Sylvan Library occupy the same slot in the deck. It's not that I disagree with your assessment of Sylvan Library's power, it's just odd that you feel Library and Cradle cannot co-exist.

KobeBryan
03-22-2012, 01:47 PM
Why would that matter tho? It's not like Cradle and Sylvan Library occupy the same slot in the deck. It's not that I disagree with your assessment of Sylvan Library's power, it's just odd that you feel Library and Cradle cannot co-exist.

Agreed...two differnt card slots completely. Gradle would take the place of a wasteland, maze, or karakas.

library is usulaly a spot of its own, or a planeswalker slot.

BlackStarDeceiver
03-22-2012, 02:27 PM
Or much more likely the spot of the second Canopy.

Dzra
03-22-2012, 03:21 PM
Gaea's Cradle isn't necessary. Wasteland + Thalia is a gameplan. You can't cut Wastelands. Turning extra lands into cards gives you a stronger late game and more outs. Don't cut Horizon Canopy. Maze of Ith is a must answer for Stoneblade. Karakas is almost as bad if you have a Thalia out. (Block, bounce, nice equipment, bro) Both Karakas and Maze of Ith are devastating against Reanimator.

Gaea's Cradle... produces 0 mana when you are behind and lots of mana when you are ahead... Not helpful. If someone casts WoG, do you want to fetch a Gaea's Cradle or your second Horizon Canapy or even any other land in your entire deck?

On a different issue. I think people are underestimating the SFM package, if I ever thought that was even possible. The point of the deck is "I have the answer." GSZ, KotR, and SFM provide three distinct tutor packages that are designed to overwhelm the opponent with card quality.

Why cut or reduce one of your most powerful toolboxes? I understand Jitte is very good, so have a second sitting in the board or MD an Eternal Witness. Done. Easy. You still have SoLS (crazy in this deck), SoFF/SoBM, and Batterskull at your disposal. I understand people's sentiments when they cut Batterskull. I have so many creatures, why do I care? Because if you land Batterskull t3, it is highly unlikely that you will lose. They can Swords and Snap-Swords and WoG all they want, but Batterskull keeps coming back. Not to mention it's much more reliable against Combo, Burn, and Dredge than the alternatives.

Koby
03-22-2012, 03:53 PM
On a different issue. I think people are underestimating the SFM package, if I ever thought that was even possible. The point of the deck is "I have the answer." GSZ, KotR, and SFM provide three distinct tutor packages that are designed to overwhelm the opponent with card quality.


Might be a nitpick, but this deck shouldn't be played with the idea "I have an answer". It's the converse rather - "I have a threat, deal with it!". The whole point of the deck is to maximize the effectiveness of those threats. Against some strategies, Maverick does take the control role such as against Reanimator; but only because Jin-Gitaxias is so debilitating. Every other creature is manageable.

The tutor package gives you flexibility which is where some answers are better than the threats. However, that is generally only in the case for KotR. SFM and GSZ find us threats.

RE: Batterkskull & Gaea's Cradle
If you're advocating for cutting Gaea's Cradle on the one hand, but keeping Batterskull on the other hand - then there's a disconnect. Gaea's Cradle is specifically included to be able to power out Batterskull and move it around. Without running Batterskull, Gaea's Cradle's role is diminished. It still does ridiculous things in certain matchups with Scavenging Ooze (Dredge) so it cannot be discounted.

Cradle is indeed rather weak in the UW/x Stoneblade matchups due to the high amount of removal. As discussed earlier in the thread, it's a Risk/Reward ratio that the pilot has to be comfortable with. I strongly feel that the Risk for running it is outweighed by the Reward of using it.

zulander
03-22-2012, 05:48 PM
Thalia is pretty good, but have you guys thought of black as well? I'm a big fan of Goyfs and not so much Stoneforge/mom.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-22-2012, 06:04 PM
SFM is a good card, but it's also slot and mana intensive. Throwing in 2-3 Jitte instead lets you free up slots while paying less mana; with that you can bump the number of Elspeths or other powerful cards like Sylvan Library, throw in a Goyf or a second Ooze or Thrun or whatever, etc..

I mean you have to make a judgement call on the relative value of these things, but talking about card choices without discussing the opportunity cost is fruitless.

Koby
03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
Thalia is pretty good, but have you guys thought of black as well? I'm a big fan of Goyfs and not so much Stoneforge/mom.

Checkout the Rock/Junk thread for builds eschewing SFM/Mother of Runes.

sdematt
03-22-2012, 06:11 PM
Come on over to the Dark side of the Maverick...free hugs! :cool:

-Matt

KobeBryan
03-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Come on over to the Dark side of the Maverick...free hugs! :cool:

-Matt

I think the only benefit of going black with mav is dark confidant and pernicious deed. Other than that, there isn't anything else worth splashing for.

Dzra
03-22-2012, 09:43 PM
Might be a nitpick, but this deck shouldn't be played with the idea "I have an answer". It's the converse rather - "I have a threat, deal with it!". The whole point of the deck is to maximize the effectiveness of those threats. Against some strategies, Maverick does take the control role such as against Reanimator; but only because Jin-Gitaxias is so debilitating. Every other creature is manageable.

Ah yeah, let me revise. I should say the deck isn't about dropping threats blindly. The strength is that it can find the right threat to ruin your day. "I have an answer" is the wrong attitude, but it's not just "threat, threat, threat;" it's Ooze for GY, BSkull for aggro, KotR for Stoneblade, etc. But it's deeper than that, sometimes you want to run out Ooze vs Stoneblade, sometimes you need Pridemage, Jitte, SoLS... any number of things. The deck loses flexibility when your gameplan is dude -> Jitte.

Definitely you have to weigh things like SFM VS Elspeth (or whatever else), but I still hold that in terms of the deck's general gameplan, SFM fits better. Elspeth is a good SB card.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-22-2012, 10:55 PM
The thing is that the format is increasingly run by 1-2 toughness creatures and full of blockers. It's difficult to think of times where a Jitte is significantly worse than a relevant Sword in most matchups, and it's easy to think of times where Jitte is way better than the wrong Sword.

Water_Wizard
03-23-2012, 04:48 AM
Jacob,
You mind answering the questions in the comments sections here: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/round_5_jacob_kory_vs_brett_pa.html

Congrats on placing. The way the article is written, it doesn't provide much detail about board state, etc. I'm Dave Yarber in the comments section.

Koby
03-23-2012, 09:45 AM
Sure, in game 2 I had a fresh cast Mom and Dryad Arbor with and active Mom. He then attacked with a Lackey so I tried to block / kill with the active Mom. That's when the Pyrokinesis was fired in response, which confused me since he could have done it to connect with Lackey and find Gempalm.

Game 3 was just a punt as I started getting frustrated from not drawing a land since game 1 after multiple mulligans. I should have blocked Lackey and Pathed the Chieftain.

TheXile
03-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Show and Tell based combo decks are a serious problem for us. I don't know that we can even the odds, but we can fight them. Game one though is probably a lost cause. I bring in three Ethersworn Canonist from the board. With Thalia as a three of main and holding kotr as a snt target to grab karakas, we can deal with Emrakul and use SoLas to race Progs. In the Hive Mind game get Thalia online asap and keep Teeg in to stop them from hard casting Hive Mind. Keep mom in as an answer to slaughter pact and bring in the bog to dig for a black source. I play test Hive Mind a lot and we are way under game one, and will rarely win two straight against them, but you have to try.

Actually I haven't had much issue with Show and Tell at all. I will admit that hivemind can be an issue, but that's why you play 4 wastelands. There deck plays almost NO basics (and often skimps on lands anyways) so you can try to mull to turn 2 KoTR and waste-lock them. Thalia is also a HUGE bane to them. She couples very well with the waste-lock plan and basically says all of your opponents spells cost 1 extra and a few of yours do (and since against that deck Swords is useless) that eliminates often 40% of the spells she effects in your deck (with the others being GSZ and Sylvan Library/Elspeth or some other 2 slots). I did beat a Hivemind player who turn 3 show and telled (because I had Thalia out) , got my KoTR into play and proceded to wasteland him into oblivion (though at the time my board was the Maverick "Stax" style board with Armageddon's and Thorn of Amethysts). And I got a Thorn on my draw which let me get to the point where he had to draw a sol land to play any pacts (though I didn't know at the time he didn't have any pacts). What really helps is the fact that if they show and tell Progenitus or Emarkul we have built in outs to them.
Emarkul-use KoTR to fetch Karakas and wallah..you're opponent screwed themselves and sped your game plan up. They SnT Progenitus, get a batterskull/SoLaS. They often can't race you that way.

xfxf
03-23-2012, 11:53 AM
I'm curious about your match-ups in general. Maverick is good at beating blue but combo, burn, goblins, anything with black and perish (pox, junk, aggro loam) is at best equal matchups if I'm not mistaken. How would you guys rate your matchups?

Koby
03-23-2012, 11:59 AM
I don't feel as though Goblins or Burn are bad matchups like Combo; they just require careful and tight play to pull ahead.

Combo
* Reanimator 45/55 Game 1, 65/35 Game 2
* Hive Mind 25/75 (improves to nearly 80/20 with Angel's Grace SB plan)
* High Tide 35/65 Game 1, 40/60 Game 2 (requires hate bears to win)
* ANT/TES 30/70 (requires hate bears and a good bit of luck)
* Belcher 10/90 (good luck...)
* Spanish Inquisition (ditto)
* Combo Elves 30/70 Game 1, improves with Canonist Game 2

Burn 45/55 but highly dependent on the build of Burn/RDW and Maverick

Goblins 45/55 (Mother of Runes and Jitte are the key, Batterskull helps slightly but Jitte and SoFI are better)
Merfolk 75/25 (Do people still play this deck?)

Pox (unfavorable) depends on which disruptions they pack. Smallpox is the worst against Maverick, Sinkhole is just annoying but not enough to make a difference, Liliana is bad for us too.

Aggro Loam (highly unfavorable) - a better "Pox" deck with more removal and faster clock

Junk (favorable) - Mother of Runes + white creatures are the key to winning (SFM -> SoLS usually just destroys them)

Fade
03-23-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm curious about your match-ups in general. Maverick is good at beating blue but combo, burn, goblins, anything with black and perish (pox, junk, aggro loam) is at best equal matchups if I'm not mistaken. How would you guys rate your matchups?

Burn - unfavorable
UW - very favorable
RUG - very favorable
Any NO - slightly unfavorable
Combo - unfavorable, but still winnable
Pox - Even
Junk - favorable
Goblins - Evenish
Aggro Loam - unfavorable
Affinity - slightly favorable

These are just my opinions, but I don't go into a certain mindset when a match is unfavorable or even unfavorable. Maverick has a lot of game and the deck rewards tight play more than any I ever played before. I also feel that Maverick can win against any matchup and it's mostly about the little decisions you make in a match that determines the outcome. There have been a number of times I lost a match due to misplays I made where I could have have won it if I played a bit tighter. This allows me to recognize my play mistakes and learn from them and help me with decisions the next time I come across a similar situation. The only combo matchups I am very afraid of are Belcher (too fast) and High tide (can wait forever and can win through most of our hatebears). I'm never too worried against storm as my record against the deck is 50-50 with most of my losses going to a game 3 where I could've won if I played better. Burn is still a bit of a problem and depends a lot on whether you have a Stoneforge or Jitte in hand.

xfxf
03-23-2012, 12:10 PM
Thanks Koby. I'm thinking about picking up this deck for a while but can't justify the move from Brainstorms to Savannahs to myself considering the wide open metagame. Are you still planning on a new primer?

Edit: And Fade too! Some people can write a whole paragraph before I can write two lines :D

Koby
03-23-2012, 12:16 PM
I finally have a weekend that's relatively free (at least from Magic tournaments) so I'm going to hammer out a good bit of the primer.

KobeBryan
03-23-2012, 01:04 PM
I don't feel as though Goblins or Burn are bad matchups like Combo; they just require careful and tight play to pull ahead.

Combo
* Reanimator 45/55 Game 1, 65/35 Game 2
* Hive Mind 25/75 (improves to nearly 80/20 with Angel's Grace SB plan)
* High Tide 35/65 Game 1, 40/60 Game 2 (requires hate bears to win)
* ANT/TES 30/70 (requires hate bears and a good bit of luck)
* Belcher 10/90 (good luck...)
* Spanish Inquisition (ditto)
* Combo Elves 30/70 Game 1, improves with Canonist Game 2

Burn 45/55 but highly dependent on the build of Burn/RDW and Maverick

Goblins 45/55 (Mother of Runes and Jitte are the key, Batterskull helps slightly but Jitte and SoFI are better)
Merfolk 75/25 (Do people still play this deck?)

Pox (unfavorable) depends on which disruptions they pack. Smallpox is the worst against Maverick, Sinkhole is just annoying but not enough to make a difference, Liliana is bad for us too.

Aggro Loam (highly unfavorable) - a better "Pox" deck with more removal and faster clock

Junk (favorable) - Mother of Runes + white creatures are the key to winning (SFM -> SoLS usually just destroys them)


The hive mind matchup...does it really skew that much in mav's favor with angel's grace?

they still have the emrukhal plan.

Philipp2293
03-23-2012, 01:06 PM
Which is not great due to Knight/Karakas against Maverick and even boarded out by some Hive Mind Players.

Koby
03-23-2012, 01:39 PM
The hive mind matchup...does it really skew that much in mav's favor with angel's grace?

they still have the emrukhal plan.

The Emrakul plan was/(is) never strong against Maverick due to Knights/Karakas. Angel's Grace essentially counters the Hive Mind plan completely, so ya it does feel like an auto-win with the inclusion of Angel's Grace + aggressive mulligans.

defector
03-23-2012, 07:26 PM
@Koby.
I agree with your assessment there completely, but can we run angels grace in a diverse metagame? Hive mind has one great advantage in that it isn't played a lot, so we rarely devote our sb slots to dealing with it. My playtest partner happens to play hivemind, so I am blessed to see it every weekend, but then I never pack anything for it for a major cause I figure I am going with one of maybe five hm players that will be there. If we could make a 25 card board I think we could make every game 2 50/50:) but in the inevitable compromise it seems like we get to choose ahead of time which combo decks will get us. At least we beat the rest of the field and if we run into our prepared for combo mu we can get a win out of it. I think that with Thalia we are at 50/50 with burn, maybe even 52/48 in our favor. I think U/R Delver is rough for us and that has been left out of the discussion so far, or maybe that's just my misfortune, but I have been smashed by U/R Delver almost every time I play it. Other than that the deck really does reward tight play, we can steal a lot of wins just through preparation. The deck really rewards format knowledge and we rarely lose to scrubby decks.

KobeBryan
03-23-2012, 07:27 PM
@Koby.
I agree with your assessment there completely, but can we run angels grace in a diverse metagame? Hive mind has one great advantage in that it isn't played a lot, so we rarely devote our sb slots to dealing with it. My playtest partner happens to play hivemind, so I am blessed to see it every weekend, but then I never pack anything for it for a major cause I figure I am going with one of maybe five hm players that will be there. If we could make a 25 card board I think we could make every game 2 50/50:) but in the inevitable compromise it seems like we get to choose ahead of time which combo decks will get us. At least we beat the rest of the field and if we run into our prepared for combo mu we can get a win out of it. I think that with Thalia we are at 50/50 with burn, maybe even 52/48 in our favor. I think U/R Delver is rough for us and that has been left out of the discussion so far, or maybe that's just my misfortune, but I have been smashed by U/R Delver almost every time I play it. Other than that the deck really does reward tight play, we can steal a lot of wins just through preparation. The deck really rewards format knowledge and we rarely lose to scrubby decks.


I don't think you can afford to use 4 sideboard slots to fight one matchup. Its too much.

I say roll the dice and see if you match up with hivemind. if you do, just take it as a game loss.

Water_Wizard
03-24-2012, 05:33 AM
Sure, in game 2 I had a fresh cast Mom and Dryad Arbor with and active Mom. He then attacked with a Lackey so I tried to block / kill with the active Mom. That's when the Pyrokinesis was fired in response, which confused me since he could have done it to connect with Lackey and find Gempalm.

Game 3 was just a punt as I started getting frustrated from not drawing a land since game 1 after multiple mulligans. I should have blocked Lackey and Pathed the Chieftain.

Thanks for the response. I'm just confused about one part - "connect with Lackey and find Gempalm" I understand he can Pyro before declare blockers, forcing you to lose 2 and tap the active mom, thus allowing lackey to connect, but are you suggesting he lackey in a gempalm or by find gempalm do you mean with a matron and then cycle it to kill your other mom?
I can see his line of reasoning, as I would probably do the same thing, but are you suggesting it's better to under-utilize the removal spell in order to increase board presence?

Ayiluss
03-24-2012, 07:43 AM
I have a question regarding to a maverick-merfolk mu. I know nobody plays merfolk right now but I still have the deck I made a while ago. So I went to the friend, lent him my merfolk deck while I play with my maverick. I really like this deck but here I came across to a problem. It maybe sounds funny but I couldn't beat him, it wasnt even close. He countered everything relevant I played while making a pressure on me with throwing out creatures, mostly lords of course to make his creatures even bigger, what was too big of a deal for me. I simply couldn't compete with so many creatures he put out (I never have so many of them out on my own). I got feeling it's just too fast to do anything good to save me a day. Since it should be fairly easy mu for maverick I would be really appreciated if anyone gave me an advice of how to beat merfolks coz I'm getting a bit frustrated.

Fade
03-24-2012, 09:40 AM
@Koby.
I agree with your assessment there completely, but can we run angels grace in a diverse metagame? Hive mind has one great advantage in that it isn't played a lot, so we rarely devote our sb slots to dealing with it. My playtest partner happens to play hivemind, so I am blessed to see it every weekend, but then I never pack anything for it for a major cause I figure I am going with one of maybe five hm players that will be there. If we could make a 25 card board I think we could make every game 2 50/50:) but in the inevitable compromise it seems like we get to choose ahead of time which combo decks will get us. At least we beat the rest of the field and if we run into our prepared for combo mu we can get a win out of it. I think that with Thalia we are at 50/50 with burn, maybe even 52/48 in our favor. I think U/R Delver is rough for us and that has been left out of the discussion so far, or maybe that's just my misfortune, but I have been smashed by U/R Delver almost every time I play it. Other than that the deck really does reward tight play, we can steal a lot of wins just through preparation. The deck really rewards format knowledge and we rarely lose to scrubby decks.

I don't even know if it's worth worrying about Hive Mind. The deck shouldn't even be running around with all the RUG Tempo/Canadian Thresh decks. They have stifle, spell Pierce, and Daze to stop/null the Hive mind triggers and it seems like a poor deck choice currently.

Fatal
03-24-2012, 12:17 PM
Testing Lightning Greaves - surprisely good card..

Avatar of Light
03-24-2012, 03:01 PM
Testing Lightning Greaves - surprisely good card..

Is it in addition to, or in place of, the other pieces of equipment (which one)? How has it affected the interactions with Mom/Ranger/equipping other equipment?

maktus
03-24-2012, 11:47 PM
hi guys, what are you using against nic fit? in my environment there are several of these decks ...

Fade
03-25-2012, 12:26 AM
hi guys, what are you using against nic fit? in my environment there are several of these decks ...

My friend has been playing the G/B version of Nic Fit and I have never really felt threatened by it. They need to resolve a deed and have a grave titan/hermit after it in order to win. Yes, sometimes they do get there with removal but most of the time they don't have those lines of plays. I find the games go into top deck mode really quick and unless Nic Fit has a top then Maverick has way better top decks to pull ahead.

Here is some advice. Always fetch up your duals against them. It makes it so that you will gain some value off of the first Explorer and possibly the second. Most of Nic Fit's lists don't run wasteland as they have a high basic count so no need to worry about getting wastelanded out of the game. Hold a KOTR or bomb in you hand once they have 4 mana if you have a commanding board (No need to run them into a deed). Elspeth is almost always game over as the only thing they have is a 2 of pulse to get rid of her.

Nic Fit players always say that they have a great matchup against Maverick but personally I don't see it. We clog up the board faster than them and gain advantage faster. By the time they deed, I have already taken a chunk out of their life and I follow their deed up with a GSZ or KOTR to finish them off.

defector
03-25-2012, 12:34 AM
@Fade

I think Show and Tell combo decks are pretty well positioned right now. RUG decks aren't as prevalent as they once were, and it looks like Show and Tell decks are on the rise. The more prepared you are the better off you are. The more popular G/w Mav decks become the more incentive there is to run a show and tell deck. SnT lists have a bad mu with RUG, G/w has a good one, the wheel continues to turn.

maktus
03-25-2012, 09:20 AM
My friend has been playing the G/B version of Nic Fit and I have never really felt threatened by it. They need to resolve a deed and have a grave titan/hermit after it in order to win. Yes, sometimes they do get there with removal but most of the time they don't have those lines of plays. I find the games go into top deck mode really quick and unless Nic Fit has a top then Maverick has way better top decks to pull ahead.

Here is some advice. Always fetch up your duals against them. It makes it so that you will gain some value off of the first Explorer and possibly the second. Most of Nic Fit's lists don't run wasteland as they have a high basic count so no need to worry about getting wastelanded out of the game. Hold a KOTR or bomb in you hand once they have 4 mana if you have a commanding board (No need to run them into a deed). Elspeth is almost always game over as the only thing they have is a 2 of pulse to get rid of her.

Nic Fit players always say that they have a great matchup against Maverick but personally I don't see it. We clog up the board faster than them and gain advantage faster. By the time they deed, I have already taken a chunk out of their life and I follow their deed up with a GSZ or KOTR to finish them off.

I was thinking of using in sb 3x Armageddon and 2x life from the loam. The problem is that it would take many slots.

Fatal
03-25-2012, 09:49 AM
vs Nic Fit best weapon which works well also in other MU:
-Elspeth, Knight-Errant - they don't have reach

Other tools:
Cataclysm - devastating if you not running planswalkers

Ok I'm after tests with Lightning Greaves here is report of undiscovered Maverick builds:

I used it in little tweaked build with Fauna Shamans, here is the list which I used:

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 2 Gut Shot
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

Good sides of the build:
Lightning Greaves are absolute house against heavy removal decks, it also gives great boost to almost all your creatures - Shroud and Haste, both are very very important.

Some scenerio's:
Hasted Mom is much more dangerous same for hasted KotR - killing from top is what everybody like, Walkers aren't scary for G/W build anymore you just play creature them tapout for attack.. It protects from bounce etc..
Opoonent always need open mana with spot removal removal while greaves are on table, it also protects your fatty (Iona/Elesh) from Karakas, giving Fauna Shaman haste is also nice.
Recurring Fattie like Iona/Elesh is best way to deal with Nic Fit or any Deed deck - let him try blow up deed for 7-9 :].
Thalia - Aven Mindcensor is very good disrupting Duet, specially with protecton.
Hierarchs with Greaves cost 0.
Fetching Cradle with KotR is really easy with Greaves - you don't need to wait a turn. If you want to give protection to be unblocked just reequip Greaves to mom if he try to use removal in resp - just mom.. so its not a problem.


Some tricks:
Fauna Shaman and no creature in hand, only scryb Ranger - fetch a dryad use Scryb Ranger to bounce, Dryad without passing priority use Fauna Shaman from Dryad, them Scryb Ability resolve, untap Shaman use it again put Retrainer into play gg.

Build isn't ended I would suggest:
+1 Ooze - still don't know in which slot.

Some thoughts why not vengevines - GY hate is verywhere you can't goes in this plan - any green deck has Ooze 4/3 haste for 2GG isnt too good compared to KotRs or Moms - Lightning Greaves is the Key.

Why choosing Elesh instead of Iona in MD - Elesh even with Karakas/Removal on table brings CA if played well - it's and edge in mirror and also turn one clock with all of your board - it kills all creatures in UW/UW/b (maybe except batterskull - but who cares) even if opponent took her out quick - his board will be cleaned. Iona is focused on combo mostly. I know its slow - but better have options then doesn't.. Actually its a best creature which you can get. Also Elesh is one which you can play normally 7 mana with creadle isnt too hard to reach - its only 2 more then batterskull so..

Also thinking about more SFM package which can be very good with Greaves - 4 mana investment for 1/2 and 4/4 Lifelinker with haste isn't bad - probably better than Vengevines and its good also alone.

Fauna Shaman's gives more tutoring which doesn't ended on Green creatures - so you can fetch Linvala for example or Stoneforge.

Build is open cards considering:
E.Witness - I miss her
more SFM package - like SoLS/Batterskull
Quirion Ranger - yes sometimes it could be useful.

Fade
03-25-2012, 09:51 AM
@Fade

I think Show and Tell combo decks are pretty well positioned right now. RUG decks aren't as prevalent as they once were, and it looks like Show and Tell decks are on the rise. The more prepared you are the better off you are. The more popular G/w Mav decks become the more incentive there is to run a show and tell deck. SnT lists have a bad mu with RUG, G/w has a good one, the wheel continues to turn.

I have to disagree with you on the amount of RUG decks in the meta. Looking at GP:Indy it was in the top 3 decks played and from what I can tell from the SCG: Inv coverage, it still looks like a big contender. The reason we are seeing an increase in the amount of SnT decks could possibly be due to UW switching to Esper. Esper only plays between 4-6 counterspells and IOK doesn't remove the Hive Mind or Progenitus/Emrakul.


I was thinking of using in sb 3x Armageddon and 2x life from the loam. The problem is that it would take many slots.

That is way too many slots. Plus we run 21-23 lands which isn't a whole lot. In order to support Armageddon we would need to sandbag lands and have nobles on the field, which won't survive long against a deed. I think it's too risky of a strategy that might not even work where the matchup isn't even that bad at all.

Arcadia
03-25-2012, 10:16 AM
I would be really appreciated if anyone gave me an advice of how to beat merfolks coz I'm getting a bit frustrated.

Vial starts are the dangerous. If they don't have it, you can even try to outrun them. Also, if you know you are against merfolks, don't keep slow hands. Mother of runes slows them a lot, quiron ranger the same, and knight of the reliquary simply cannot be beaten. Jitte in general is quite good...I don't know, if they have the perfect hand you cannot beat them, but it's hard to have vials + lords + fow + dismember. Save STP for reejerey or coralhelm if you can.

I don't know, in general I would try to stabilize, and then beat. Also, try to fetch basics first turns, you want to develop the manabase.

Philipp2293
03-25-2012, 01:11 PM
In my opinion if Martell's Esper build really becomes the standard build for Blade Control, the MD Maze may become mandatory. A wave of flyers coupled with Jitte are a serious issue.

Lejay
03-25-2012, 01:22 PM
That and the 4 SFM MD with an additional jitte SB for SFM decks.

Koby
03-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Or start playing more than 2 Pridemage. Honestly.

Lejay
03-25-2012, 01:37 PM
I agree 3 Qasali pridemage is the good number.

TheKingslayer
03-25-2012, 02:49 PM
Three has always been the right number.

RJM
03-25-2012, 03:40 PM
Three has always been the right number.

SB space is admittedly tight, but I always feel better with 2x Krosan Grip in there and not just Pride Mages.

maktus
03-25-2012, 04:45 PM
vs Nic Fit best weapon which works well also in other MU:
-Elspeth, Knight-Errant - they don't have reach

Other tools:
Cataclysm - devastating if you not running planswalkers

Ok I'm after tests with Lightning Greaves here is report of undiscovered Maverick builds:

I used it in little tweaked build with Fauna Shamans, here is the list which I used:

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 2 Gut Shot
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

Good sides of the build:
Lightning Greaves are absolute house against heavy removal decks, it also gives great boost to almost all your creatures - Shroud and Haste, both are very very important.

Some scenerio's:
Hasted Mom is much more dangerous same for hasted KotR - killing from top is what everybody like, Walkers aren't scary for G/W build anymore you just play creature them tapout for attack.. It protects from bounce etc..
Opoonent always need open mana with spot removal removal while greaves are on table, it also protects your fatty (Iona/Elesh) from Karakas, giving Fauna Shaman haste is also nice.
Recurring Fattie like Iona/Elesh is best way to deal with Nic Fit or any Deed deck - let him try blow up deed for 7-9 :].
Thalia - Aven Mindcensor is very good disrupting Duet, specially with protecton.
Hierarchs with Greaves cost 0.
Fetching Cradle with KotR is really easy with Greaves - you don't need to wait a turn. If you want to give protection to be unblocked just reequip Greaves to mom if he try to use removal in resp - just mom.. so its not a problem.


Some tricks:
Fauna Shaman and no creature in hand, only scryb Ranger - fetch a dryad use Scryb Ranger to bounce, Dryad without passing priority use Fauna Shaman from Dryad, them Scryb Ability resolve, untap Shaman use it again put Retrainer into play gg.

Build isn't ended I would suggest:
+1 Ooze - still don't know in which slot.

Some thoughts why not vengevines - GY hate is verywhere you can't goes in this plan - any green deck has Ooze 4/3 haste for 2GG isnt too good compared to KotRs or Moms - Lightning Greaves is the Key.

Why choosing Elesh instead of Iona in MD - Elesh even with Karakas/Removal on table brings CA if played well - it's and edge in mirror and also turn one clock with all of your board - it kills all creatures in UW/UW/b (maybe except batterskull - but who cares) even if opponent took her out quick - his board will be cleaned. Iona is focused on combo mostly. I know its slow - but better have options then doesn't.. Actually its a best creature which you can get. Also Elesh is one which you can play normally 7 mana with creadle isnt too hard to reach - its only 2 more then batterskull so..

Also thinking about more SFM package which can be very good with Greaves - 4 mana investment for 1/2 and 4/4 Lifelinker with haste isn't bad - probably better than Vengevines and its good also alone.

Fauna Shaman's gives more tutoring which doesn't ended on Green creatures - so you can fetch Linvala for example or Stoneforge.

Build is open cards considering:
E.Witness - I miss her
more SFM package - like SoLS/Batterskull
Quirion Ranger - yes sometimes it could be useful.

Against Nic Fit I thought some cards:
1x Dauntless Escort in sb, or
3x Martial Coup in sb, or
1x Extra eslpeth in sb.

What do you think of these options more viable?

PS: great idea to use Lightning Greaves.

Fade
03-25-2012, 07:58 PM
Against Nic Fit I thought some cards:
1x Dauntless Escort in sb, or
3x Martial Coup in sb, or
1x Extra eslpeth in sb.

What do you think of these options more viable?

PS: great idea to use Lightning Greaves.

Takes up the least amount of space, can be used in other matchups as well, and they literally can't get rid of it unless they have the pulse. Dauntless Escort is interesting but they can always just get another deed.

Koby
03-25-2012, 09:29 PM
Top 8 from SCG: Balitimore Open:

G/W Maverick
High Tide
G/W Maverick
Sneak and Show
G/W Maverick
G/W Maverick
Fauna Maverick
G/W Maverick

Time to find a new deck :P

majikal
03-25-2012, 09:32 PM
Top 8 from SCG: Balitimore Open:

G/W Maverick
High Tide
G/W Maverick
Sneak and Show
G/W Maverick
G/W Maverick
Fauna Maverick
G/W Maverick

Time to find a new deck :P
I wouldn't put too much stock in this. The invitational was still going on.

CorpT
03-25-2012, 09:46 PM
I wouldn't put too much stock in this. The invitational was still going on.

No it wasn't. Only the top 8.

DrHealex
03-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Indeed, only top 8 play sunday so the legacy turnout should be quite insane AND maverick won the invitational. While I do play punishing mav which is favored in the mirror.. it might just be time to find the anti maverick at this point.

This top8 reminds me of the first good showing of vengevival, where there were multiple flavors in the top8 but there aren't any real banworthy cards in this deck.

Koby
03-25-2012, 09:54 PM
I might need to add a section to the new primer on how to win the mirror matchup. Ugh...

majikal
03-25-2012, 09:55 PM
Well then, shit. I guess brace for bannings? lol

Which brings me to another subject - EVERY TIME I PLAY A DECK IN LEGACY SOMETHING IN IT GETS BANNED. >:(

Koby
03-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Well then, shit. I guess brace for bannings? lol

Which brings me to another subject - EVERY TIME I PLAY A DECK IN LEGACY SOMETHING IN IT GETS BANNED. >:(

QFT

(Damn you Survival! Damn you Mystical Tutor!)

RJM
03-25-2012, 10:45 PM
Haha, ugh. And the way all the WotC coverage I've read LOVES to focus/dramatize on SFM being so "unbeatable/ubiquitous/ridiculous" I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow justified it's banning. Which would make perfect sense since naturally I just finished my foil playset.

majikal
03-25-2012, 10:47 PM
The hilarious part is that a lot of the newer Maverick builds have cut SFM for Thalia and more Jitte. Banning Stoneforge might actually just make Maverick better.

Fade
03-25-2012, 10:50 PM
Haha, ugh. And the way all the WotC coverage I've read LOVES to focus/dramatize on SFM being so "unbeatable/ubiquitous/ridiculous" I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow justified it's banning. Which would make perfect sense since naturally I just finished my foil playset.

I seriously doubt SFM would be the card they would choose to ban in this deck. A number of lists have been cutting them completely or running 2-3. SFM is quite possibly the least impacting creature in the deck for what Maverick wants to do. Looking at the cards individually and together I can't see any of the cards being banned based on their power levels. Maverick can be beat but people decline to build variations of their decks to beat it.

RJM
03-26-2012, 12:57 AM
I seriously doubt SFM would be the card they would choose to ban in this deck. A number of lists have been cutting them completely or running 2-3. SFM is quite possibly the least impacting creature in the deck for what Maverick wants to do. Looking at the cards individually and together I can't see any of the cards being banned based on their power levels. Maverick can be beat but people decline to build variations of their decks to beat it.

Obviously I was being sarcastic. SFM to the well-informed legacy player is clearly not a problem card. (The point being WotC is NOT a "well-informed legacy player".)

And yeah, I'm only running 3 currently, and the first slot I really feel I need to cut for more high impact cards is going to be copy #3.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-26-2012, 04:15 AM
Although I wouldn't advocate banning anything, if it were to be anything it should probably either be Green Sun's Zenith or Knight of the Reliquary. GSZ at least they have precedent for banning in a format, and it's a very powerful spell, which they really hate, especially when it goes to non-blue colors.

Knight of the Reliquary is certainly the most powerful card in the deck and the reason for its existence however. Wizards even has the excuse that while it is a huge beatstick, it's not just a dumb beater. It gives the deck game against decks like Show and Tell and Reanimator that it really shouldn't have, and generally serves as a powerful tutor and utility critter when it's not attacking for eight or twelve damage.

But I think it's fundamentally impossible for Maverick to dominate the meta for long anyway, it's a fine deck but it has a lot of critical weaknesses that can be attacked fairly easily.

Waikiki
03-26-2012, 04:51 AM
I dont think anything needs to be banned in this deck for sure It just got very strong against alot of archetypes thanks to thalia imo. (unban survival !)

When I noticed maverick was taking over NL (the damn storm capital of europe I sometimes think) I decided to pick up hive mind. and our latest tournament (106) players contained as top decks being played: esperblade, Maverick and storm.

Neither Maverick nor storm made it into the top 8 while esperblade got 3 top 8's
I managed to face 3 maverick players taking them all down and going to top 4 aswell. I think the meta wil just adjust to maverick like it has been done here aswell.

Unless everybody just picks up the best deck in the format (which I think indeed is Maverick with esper to a close 2nd)

dsck
03-26-2012, 06:58 AM
Ban brainstorm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KindGrind
03-26-2012, 09:17 AM
I love Maverick, and I fear for GSZ somewhere down the line.

The famous phrase "frankly, because it was everywhere" echoes in the far reaches of my brain... Not again?

Let's hope people learn to adapt and beat it. Last time I checked, Maverick had trouble racing a Progenitus...

kiwi
03-26-2012, 09:22 AM
The key card in GW/X maverick is not green sun's zenith, the most important card is mother of runes.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-26-2012, 10:05 AM
The key card in GW/X maverick is not green sun's zenith, the most important card is mother of runes.

Not really. You can tell both from how often people go down to 3 (sometimes even less, I've obviously preferred 0), despite having no way to tutor for or find them and despite the fact that it's easily strongest on turn 1.

By contrast GSZ functionally allows you to nearly double the number of Hierarchs and Knights you play, and Knight actually single-handedly takes over numerous games all by himself, whereas a lone Mom is a Drudge Skeleton, essentially.

This would probably be much closer to true of Fauna Shaman buids (or black builds running Dark Confidant) where you have multiple creatures that it's very important to protect, except there it's still clearly less important than first getting one of those game winning guys in play.

mordraid
03-26-2012, 10:12 AM
If anything get banned, wich i doubt, it wont be a creature. Aside from ante, there is only 3 creatures on the banlist, and they all can generate combos.

I've looked at some survival lists before the banning of survival of the fittest and they looked quite ressembling to the maverick lists that are played since a year. The vengevine-survival engine has been replace by green's sun zenith, wich don't do degenerate stuff with vengevine. That's why i really doubt anything will be banned.

Adam Van Fleet
03-26-2012, 10:25 AM
The key card in GW/X maverick is not green sun's zenith, the most important card is mother of runes.

I disagree.

Green Sun's Zenith (GSZ) allows Maverick to be extraordinarily consistant, and with the creature package available to them - be set against almost anything the field has to throw at them.

Got paired against Dredge? GSZ - Scavenging Ooze.
Worried about Wrath/Planeswalkers/Sneak Attack/Ad Nauseum/Time Spiral? GSZ - Gaddock Teeg.
Umezawa's Jitte/Ensnaring Bridge/Moat getting you down? GSZ - Qasali Pridemage.
Keep a low-land opener? Rampant Growth for 1! (GSZ - Dryad Arbor)
Need a beater? GSZ - Knight of the Reliquary for 4's still pretty awesome.
The list and scenarios go on...

The card, in itself, allows Maverick to get whatever they need, whenever they need it without a real draw-back. If card disadvantageous tutors that don't get you your spell immediately are bannable (ex: Mystical Tutor), surely a tutor lacking such disadvantage and gaining immediate access to a game-breaking target is worth carefully considering.

Take GSZ away, and now you force the Maverick player to mulligan for answers or become overall less consistant. That, in my opinion, would help balance the deck out a bit.

The Colonel
03-26-2012, 10:28 AM
Just out of curiosity, has anyone looked at Knotvine Paladin or Jenara, Asura of War? I run the striaght G/W version.


2 Knotvine could be cool beaters especially with Moms and Hierarchs out. Mom and Sword of X and X can help him get through. If all you have out is Knotvine with say a Mom and a Hierarch he gets +3/+3 and then mom can give him proection from being blocked. I checked with a Judge and that is doable. that's a 5/5 attacking on turn 3. getting him through for 5-9 damage a turn also leaves KotR, Ooz back for defense if needed while still getting in for good damage. If you run Batterskull it also has great synergy with the Paladin. Just a thought


With Jenara I sometimes find myself wanting decent sized Flyer out. She gives is something to do with extra mana, is searchable with Zenith and running 4 Hierarchs alows us to cast her fairly easily. I'm talking about her as a one of as opposed to some other one of creature. Again just a thought.


Let me know what you guys think.

sauce
03-26-2012, 01:52 PM
maverick is easily beatable. it gets ranched by storm and if you cannot get an ooze it gets ranched by reanimator.
also fairly bad vs all loam strategies such as aggroloam or pox loam

menace13
03-26-2012, 02:03 PM
Not really. You can tell both from how often people go down to 3 (sometimes even less, I've obviously preferred 0), despite having no way to tutor for or find them and despite the fact that it's easily strongest on turn 1.

By contrast GSZ functionally allows you to nearly double the number of Hierarchs and Knights you play, and Knight actually single-handedly takes over numerous games all by himself, whereas a lone Mom is a Drudge Skeleton, essentially.

I would go so far as to say that GSZ has really pushed the deck from good to great. An into play tutor for the best beaters and utility creatures in the game is immensely powerful, versatile and increases consistency across the spectrum. It already had Mom, KotR, SFM as Maverick pre GSZ.

KobeBryan
03-26-2012, 02:04 PM
People who have playtested:

Is it really worth using 5 card slots and 1 SB slot to run the fauna shamen/Elesh Norn combo?

Koby
03-26-2012, 02:06 PM
People who have playtested:

Is it really worth using 5 card slots and 1 SB slot to run the fauna shamen/Elesh Norn combo?

IMO, no. It largely relies on Fauna Shaman (which already has to be protected by Mother of Runes); if you've got Mom out, you've already pulled ahead.

Fade
03-26-2012, 02:39 PM
People who have playtested:

Is it really worth using 5 card slots and 1 SB slot to run the fauna shamen/Elesh Norn combo?

imo it is more cute than good, but I'm still going to test it out this weekend before I make any decisions on it. I will let you know what I think about it, but I suspect it will be more of a clunky win-more type of interaction for the deck.

Fatal
03-26-2012, 03:19 PM
From my testing:

Worth ? Depends on meta:

If you face a lot of mirrors - yes its worth.

Elesh is actually one of the only outs vs opponents active MoR. Jitte mostly doesn't do the job since opponent always find a pridemage/Scryb/Aven etc..

I also should also mention about Elesh vs Lingering Souls, also don't forgot that those are 3 more tutors (running mostly 3 Fauna Shamans) in deck. Drawing in late hierarch/bop or even single bullet vs other MU isn't great, compare it to SDT for 2 with Legs. Filitring best thread.

TheXile
03-26-2012, 04:31 PM
Burn - unfavorable
UW - very favorable
RUG - very favorable
Any NO - slightly unfavorable
Combo - unfavorable, but still winnable
Pox - Even
Junk - favorable
Goblins - Evenish
Aggro Loam - unfavorable
Affinity - slightly favorable

These are just my opinions, but I don't go into a certain mindset when a match is unfavorable or even unfavorable. Maverick has a lot of game and the deck rewards tight play more than any I ever played before. I also feel that Maverick can win against any matchup and it's mostly about the little decisions you make in a match that determines the outcome. There have been a number of times I lost a match due to misplays I made where I could have have won it if I played a bit tighter. This allows me to recognize my play mistakes and learn from them and help me with decisions the next time I come across a similar situation. The only combo matchups I am very afraid of are Belcher (too fast) and High tide (can wait forever and can win through most of our hatebears). I'm never too worried against storm as my record against the deck is 50-50 with most of my losses going to a game 3 where I could've won if I played better. Burn is still a bit of a problem and depends a lot on whether you have a Stoneforge or Jitte in hand.

Your list is precisely why I run the Enlightened Tutor package in my sideboard. The only difficulty is determining how many Enlightened Tutors to run (currently I MD 2 and SB 1 though I will most likely put them all in the board and eliminate some stuff in there) but with E. Tutor you can now run
1x COP: Red in your board (burn matchup just got REALLY good) when you can turn 1 tutor, turn 2 lock them out of the game
1x Ghostly Prison is amazing against SnT that relies on swinging for the win (since their deck is heavy on non-basics and you can waste-lock them).
2x Choke (normally you run 3, but with several E. tutors I can't justify more than 2)
2x Stony Silence (this one's because I have a bunch of affinity players locally)
2x Rule of Law (that should solve your storm problem) (and also slows combos elves down enough that you can get an active Jitte and crush face)
2x Tormod's Crypt (Sometimes Ooze isn't enough for Dredge/Reanimator)
1x Gaddock Teag (I've honestly been very underwhelmed by him when he was MD and while he's the only GSZ'able hatebear I dislike how he turns off further GSZ (and Elspeths)
1x Bojuku Bog (Great against Goyfs/opposite KoTR and occasionally dredge/reanimator/Past in Flames storm)
2x Crucible of Worlds (with E. tutors it lets me waste-lock people consistantly)..this will actually drop to 1 and free up a slot soon.
1x Light of Day (we have a Gate player locally and that's a brutal matchup for Maverick)

Reading other people's comments I agree that the real power of Maverick..is it's ridiculous consistency (hence another reason to run E.tutor package). I'm also a fan of the Stax package in the sideboard in certain metagames (combo heavy metagames have a hell of a time dealing with Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst), while we can sit back and play lands/mana dorks.

-X

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-26-2012, 05:04 PM
From my testing:

Worth ? Depends on meta:

If you face a lot of mirrors - yes its worth.

Elesh is actually one of the only outs vs opponents active MoR. Jitte mostly doesn't do the job since opponent always find a pridemage/Scryb/Aven etc..

I also should also mention about Elesh vs Lingering Souls, also don't forgot that those are 3 more tutors (running mostly 3 Fauna Shamans) in deck. Drawing in late hierarch/bop or even single bullet vs other MU isn't great, compare it to SDT for 2 with Legs. Filitring best thread.

People legitimately need to test Parallax Wave. I know everyone loves their new cards and mythic rares, but Wave does all this and more if that's all you're running Fauna Shaman for.

Koby
03-26-2012, 05:05 PM
People legitimately need to test Parallax Wave. I know everyone loves their new cards and mythic rares, but Wave does all this and more if that's all you're running Fauna Shaman for.

Might even be better than Linvala against the mirror (but not against Elves, pesky pointy eared tree huggers)

Dzra
03-26-2012, 06:30 PM
People who have playtested:

Is it really worth using 5 card slots and 1 SB slot to run the fauna shamen/Elesh Norn combo?

I'm sort of wondering this myself... It certainly trumps the mirror. It beats Elves.

Against Dredge, High Tide, TES, and ANT (assuming you have an Iona boarded) it can be used in conjunction with other SB cards to close out the game completely (after you've stalled them with hatebears). It's questionable whether or not it's needed though, it certainly has the potential to be clunky.

It has the right idea in that it tries to help poor MUs, so I don't think it can be written off as just cute. The only bad MU it really hurts against is Burn since you lose the SFM package and if they let you untap with Fauna Shaman, they deserve Iona. That said, the best thing to take from Adam Cai's list might just be the Blue splash for Spell Pierce.

maktus
03-26-2012, 06:36 PM
Might even be better than Linvala against the mirror (but not against Elves, pesky pointy eared tree huggers)

what do you think of these versions of maverick who currently do not use stoneforge, blades and 3x thalia? you think this is a passing or remain? I think that just using jittes limit too much the deck.

Koby
03-26-2012, 06:47 PM
It has the right idea in that it tries to help poor MUs, so I don't think it can be written off as just cute. The only bad MU it really hurts against is Burn since you lose the SFM package and if they let you untap with Fauna Shaman, they deserve Iona. That said, the best thing to take from Adam Cai's list might just be the Blue splash for Spell Pierce.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but it stands to be repeated. Getting Elesh Norn out with the Fauna Shaman/Loyal Retainers combo doesn't really excite me as much as getting Iona out. She's the real strength of this combo. Unfortunately, the speed at which she can be reanimated with the Fauna Shaman shell is a too slow to impact the matchups that she is good against.


what do you think of these versions of maverick who currently do not use stoneforge, blades and 3x thalia? you think this is a passing or remain? I think that just using jittes limit too much the deck.

Thalia is great... except for the mirror. She's woefully underpowered when the best thing she's got doing for her is First Strike. Her inclusion is definitely justified due to the combo matchups, and that's about the only matchup where I could see desiring her in the deck. In each other fair matchup she's just another bear that isn't Knight of the Reliquary.

KobeBryan
03-26-2012, 06:56 PM
I think I mentioned this earlier, but it stands to be repeated. Getting Elesh Norn out with the Fauna Shaman/Loyal Retainers combo doesn't really excite me as much as getting Iona out. She's the real strength of this combo. Unfortunately, the speed at which she can be reanimated with the Fauna Shaman shell is a too slow to impact the matchups that she is good against.



Thalia is great... except for the mirror. She's woefully underpowered when the best thing she's got doing for her is First Strike. Her inclusion is definitely justified due to the combo matchups, and that's about the only matchup where I could see desiring her in the deck. In each other fair matchup she's just another bear that isn't Knight of the Reliquary.

Rukcus...what do you do against a mirror match? you dont use parallax wave or the fauna shamen combo.

Koby
03-26-2012, 06:58 PM
Rukcus...what do you do against a mirror match? you dont use parallax wave or the fauna shamen combo.

Best sideboard tech ever:
Mulligans.

Dzra
03-26-2012, 07:39 PM
Best sideboard tech ever:
Mulligans.

/like

And honestly, as cool as Parallax Wave is... Why isn't Linvala just shutting everything down for the rest of the game (unless they Swords her) just better? "They can remove her" doesn't work because they can just as easily Pridemage the Wave, not to mention it'll be gone in 2-3 turns regardless.

maktus
03-26-2012, 07:50 PM
In the games of yesterday who solved Mother before won the game. One of these games the guy used StP against a noble and the opponent dropped a mother and therefore he won.

Avian is also a good card against mirror but I'm trying to put Mirran Crusader on my list. I think he + blade can be devastating.

Fade
03-26-2012, 07:56 PM
Rukcus...what do you do against a mirror match? you dont use parallax wave or the fauna shamen combo.

Mirror matches are very grindy. The most important creature they can play is Mother of Runes because that allows for any Knight to take over the game. Swords/Path them as soon as you get the chance. Sometimes you have to make situations where they have to tap their Mother and that's when you can catch them off guard. After them go for their Knights.

Bog and Maze of Ith come in to both prevent damage from an opposing Knight and to shrink them. Elspeth really helps break stalemates and the three pridemages are great for the opposing equipment. Scavenging Ooze is an all star at shrinking Knights, gaining you some life, and eventually growing into a big threat. Sometimes an exalted Scryb Ranger + Mother can get there but I would not rely on it. Also, watch out for the Dryad Arbor and Scryb Ranger interactions. SoLaS shines in the mirror as they can't get rid of your guy.

Knowing your deck is your biggest advantage though. It's a very skill intensive match unless you have to mull into oblivion. I hope this helps!

Koby
03-26-2012, 08:33 PM
+1 to being a grindfest. Mirrors can easily take 90 minutes if you're untimed.

The point to take away is to kill Mom before she gets active, or like Fade stated, create a situation where she must be used. Like I've mentioned in the past, your life total doesn't matter unless it's lethal, so take the lumps and maintain good board presence.

Arcadia
03-27-2012, 05:26 AM
For who is talking about bans: In case something is banned, it's obviously GSZ. I would ban it even if it's not bc of maverick. The deck gets 8 reliquary, can tutor up hate, quasalis, etc.I would run it in any green deck.

Mirror match: Some people plays gideon jura, which I think it's awesome, even more than linvala. It cannot be really killed, and it trumps mother of runes, nobles, etc.

I am thinking about the SFM pack. Right now I like to have it. The deck does not need to go fast, and having 3 SFM +3 equipments makes higher the number of bombs in the deck. When you have a jitte it's obviously better if the opponent does not knows that you have it...but I like having 6 bombs instead of 2-3.

Parallax wave: Too cute IMO. Remember that with a qasali you can kill all their creatures and they will never come back.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Mirror match: Some people plays gideon jura, which I think it's awesome, even more than linvala. It cannot be really killed, and it trumps mother of runes, nobles, etc.

Parallax wave: Too cute IMO.

I literally face-palmed reading this.


Parallax wave: Too cute IMO. Remember that with a qasali you can kill all their creatures and they will never come back.

Also what does this even mean? "Too cute, remember that there's a lot of powerful tricks it can pull off."

Tiago_B.
03-27-2012, 06:17 PM
I literally face-palmed reading this.

lol

menace13
03-28-2012, 12:27 AM
Gideon isn't that bad. I have seen a few Japanese top 8 lists use him as a 1 of. Also while we are on oddities of Maverick listings, Gavony Township, Garruk and Mortapod are interesting inclusions. Link if anyone wants to take a look: http://amclegacy.sakura.ne.jp/index_e.html

ivanpei
03-28-2012, 04:14 AM
IMO you guys shouldn't write off loyal retainers combo. I played it in the past with Iona and it was a dangerous package. Also its not really that clunky. If you draw retainers, it can be used to Reanimate teeq/thalia if needed. Iona can also be hardcasted with a cradle easily if drawn.

However I played the vial version without any equips so the combo is much easier to pull off and absolutely bonkers. Not sure how efficient it is without vials. I basically cut 3 Heirarch and a silver bullet to fit in the vials. Fauna package replaces sfm package and we are good to go.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-28-2012, 04:30 AM
Gideon isn't that bad. I have seen a few Japanese top 8 lists use him as a 1 of. Also while we are on oddities of Maverick listings, Gavony Township, Garruk and Mortapod are interesting inclusions. Link if anyone wants to take a look: http://amclegacy.sakura.ne.jp/index_e.html

Gavony Township actually seems like it might be incredibly powerful in the mirror.

Garruk Relentless otoh has been crap every time I tested it or saw it in action. I have never actually seen it win a game. Maybe that's just me.

Primal Hunter, though...

Anyway, yeah, I'm not calling Gideon crap, it's a decent enough card. It's just that the logic that says, hey, let's give Gideon a look in this deck, and then turns around and calls Parallax Wave "cute" is... baffling to me. I guess it shouldn't be though. I doubt a lot of people have seen Parallax Wave hit play these days.

menace13
03-28-2012, 07:15 AM
Gavony Township actually seems like it might be incredibly powerful in the mirror.

Garruk Relentless otoh has been crap every time I tested it or saw it in action. I have never actually seen it win a game. Maybe that's just me.

Primal Hunter, though...

Anyway, yeah, I'm not calling Gideon crap, it's a decent enough card. It's just that the logic that says, hey, let's give Gideon a look in this deck, and then turns around and calls Parallax Wave "cute" is... baffling to me. I guess it shouldn't be though. I doubt a lot of people have seen Parallax Wave hit play these days.

Heh, I have never played with Parallax Wave despite owning it. Parallax is a good card though. It can keep the board clear of 2-3 creatures for 2-3 turns. It is almost a one-sided sweeper, which in an aggro mirror has to be crippling. Mom can't respond enough times to the ability leaving SoLaS as the only way to defend from the point and click. The Exile Triggers on Stack then destroy it with Pridemage should work the same way as Oblivion Ring allowing priority to stack exile triggers on opposing Pridemages and whatever else to permanently exile if responded to with the destroy ability? This would turn it into a 2 card I Win combo. The only thing they can do is remove your Pridemage or they have SoLaS equipped or Mom+Qasali along with 3rd creature to save.

Gavony does seem legit in the grindy mirror. Mortapod piqued my interests with its functionality for not only mirrors, but against unflipped Delver, Bob, and Grim. Gideon forces Mom and KotR to either swing or tap allowing for a few tricks to Block/out race/StP or have Gideon Assassinate.

The Colonel
03-28-2012, 10:26 AM
Just out of curiosity, has anyone looked at Knotvine Paladin or Jenara, Asura of War? I run the striaght G/W version.


2 Knotvine could be cool beaters especially with Moms and Hierarchs out. Mom and Sword of X and X can help him get through. If all you have out is Knotvine with say a Mom and a Hierarch he gets +3/+3 and then mom can give him proection from being blocked. I checked with a Judge and that is doable. that's a 5/5 attacking on turn 3. getting him through for 5-9 damage a turn also leaves KotR, Ooz back for defense if needed while still getting in for good damage. If you run Batterskull it also has great synergy with the Paladin. Just a thought


With Jenara I sometimes find myself wanting decent sized Flyer out. She gives is something to do with extra mana, is searchable with Zenith and running 4 Hierarchs alows us to cast her fairly easily. I'm talking about her as a one of as opposed to some other one of creature. Again just a thought.


Let me know what you guys think.

Fl0do
03-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Just out of curiosity, has anyone looked at Knotvine Paladin or Jenara, Asura of War?

What makes them better than any other creature in a common Maverick list?

CorpT
03-28-2012, 10:48 AM
What makes them better than any other creature in a common Maverick list?

Especially considering they were never even Standard playable. I can't imagine what you would take out to put in sub-par cards.

Asthereal
03-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Jenara is pretty bad. You have to splash blue for it, and it dies to a Lightning Bolt.
If you splash blue for a creature, play Rhox War Monk. Burn sees quite a lot of play these days, and Rhox War Monk eats them up pretty nicely.

That Paladin though is even worse. Have you noticed no one is playing Tarmogoyf in this deck? Not even a singleton. Weird, isn't it? Perhaps they don't like CMC2 vanilla beatsticks, and prefer utility instead. If you do prefer beatsticks however, you should obviously include Goyf over that Paladin you mentioned.

mini1337s
03-28-2012, 07:12 PM
This is probably terrible, but while we are discussing BANT creatures, has anyone ever considered Stoic Angel? It certainly seems like it would be a must answer creature for swarm style decks.
Just a thought.

Also, has anyone tested Daybreak Ranger in GWr lists? If so, is it worth running?

RJM
03-28-2012, 09:26 PM
Continuing along the 3rd color splash line of thinking. I'm pretty firmly entrenched with Black, just for personal preference. But I've been tinkering with a Glissa the Traitor as a GSZ target. It's actually been pretty cool.

With 3 colors, I've had good use out of an single EE. (Plus the E Tutor package in the SB). And she recovers lost equipment like a champ, or can win you the stalemate on the ground just because Death Touch/First Strike.

Not completely sold on it, because the deck space is so damn tight, and it might not be needed over something like Terravore as "KotR #5". But... she's also not GY dependent to be effective in combat, so it's something to mix up the threat base a little.

mordraid
03-29-2012, 08:34 AM
I've seen the rise of the esper deck with lingering souls in my local meta. I'm thinking of adding 1-2 powder keg in my e-tutor sideboard to shut them down. It's colorless removal, cheap to cast, tutorable and can destroy the tokens the turn it comes into play.

What do you guys think about this ?

Asthereal
03-29-2012, 08:43 AM
I have tried Dueling Grounds in my eTutor toolbox, and cut it because I never encountered Goblins anyway. Stoic Angel does mostly the same thing, but costs more mana. Especially if you have to Zenith it up. I would suggest Dueling Grounds or Ghostly prison in the eTutor toolbox, or if you don;t play that perhaps add blue for Rhox War Monks to win the aggro matchup that way.

For Powder Keg: the idea is sound, but Keg is vulnerable to Spell Snare and Spell Pierce. I now have one Engineered Explosives in my eTutor toolbox, and am considering adding a second. Explosives for zero dodges the mentioned counters nicely, and if you need it for one, you don't have to wait a turn to blow it up. Also it's pretty nice against opposing Moms.

dsck
03-29-2012, 09:50 AM
I've seen the rise of the esper deck with lingering souls in my local meta. I'm thinking of adding 1-2 powder keg in my e-tutor sideboard to shut them down. It's colorless removal, cheap to cast, tutorable and can destroy the tokens the turn it comes into play.

What do you guys think about this ?

E.E. is better because it avoids Spell Snare and can be set for 4 (punishing maverick) to destoy jace. It works just as fast against tokens as Powder Keg.

mordraid
03-29-2012, 10:18 AM
Haven't thought of engineered explosives, i may becoming too old :wink:

It's also better than keg because it keeps dryad arbor in play.

CookedChestnuts
03-29-2012, 11:41 AM
Knotvine and Jenara are both bad.

If anything, I would rather play a THIRD Ooze over the Knotvine, and Jenara can build up counters all day, but what it will boil down to is you attacking, them activating Knight for a Karakas and bouncing it.

menace13
03-29-2012, 12:20 PM
I mentioned extra Oozes to Rukcus before GP Indy. Ooze is very good in the mirror and going up to 3 may be a good way to address that because it beats every creature in Maverick in combat and since many lists are running 3 to 4 Thalia(eliminating P.Fires as an answer to Ooze). KotR can even shrink down from Ooze activations as well all the while giving extra utility against Delver, Burn, and Reanimator/Dredge/Loam decks.

Koby
03-29-2012, 12:27 PM
I mentioned extra Oozes to Rukcus before GP Indy. Ooze is very good in the mirror and going up to 3 may be a good way to address that because it beats every creature in Maverick in combat and since many lists are running 3 to 4 Thalia(eliminating P.Fires as an answer to Ooze). KotR can even shrink down from Ooze activations as well all the while giving extra utility against Delver, Burn, and Reanimator/Dredge/Loam decks.

Best advice ever. Picked up an extra pair before the GP, only to find out that they were selling for $40 on site! *dodging bullets, bobbing & weaving & shit*

Fade
03-29-2012, 12:44 PM
Looks like I'm going to have to go hunting for some counterpunch in my local stores to complete my set before it goes up even more.

sauce
03-29-2012, 02:12 PM
i am not sure i am the first, but i will go on the record and say that every deck running green and creatures should be playing 4 scavenging oozes.
it is indeed the next coming of tarmogoyf.
mark it down boys.

randomly.anonymous
03-29-2012, 02:20 PM
i am not sure i am the first, but i will go on the record and say that every deck running green and creatures should be playing 4 scavenging oozes.
it is indeed the next coming of tarmogoyf.
mark it down boys.

Not entirely sure that decks like RUG tempo can support Ooze. Or if decks like TA will want to play 4.
It is a mana intensive creature, and doesn't get bigger than an average goyf until 3 or so activations provided there are that many creatures in the GY.

CorpT
03-29-2012, 02:23 PM
Additionally, the second Ooze is significantly worse than the first Ooze. You play multiplies so that when your first Ooze dies, your second Ooze can continue. I would have a hard time seeing more than 3 in a deck. That being said, in a deck that can generate green easily and quickly, Ooze is absolutely bonkers.

Fade
03-29-2012, 02:24 PM
i am not sure i am the first, but i will go on the record and say that every deck running green and creatures should be playing 4 scavenging oozes.
it is indeed the next coming of tarmogoyf.
mark it down boys.

Goyf fills a different role than Ooze though. In Maverick Ooze is vastly superior but in more tempo based decks the initial 2cc for Goyf is well spent. We often have resources left at the end of our turn due to Knights and mana dorks that help Ooze excel.


Holy cow, i didn't know ooze went up. Last I checked, it was at $20 a piece. Wow...thank goodness i got an extra one off ebay when it was $10 a few months ago.

Time to sell Goyfs!!!

As I just said Goyf fills a different role then Ooze but go ahead and sell them. You will regret it when you have to buy them again.

sauce
03-29-2012, 02:29 PM
the ooze invalidates all opposing oozes, knights, goyfs and mongeesii (lsv), it's better than goyf in every deck that can afford to activate it's ability. is it better in a control deck on turn2? no. is it better in a control deck on turn5? most likely - yes. in a tempo deck it is a different card, but it also trumps opposing goyfs by making them small if nothing else.
i used to never play a deck w/o 4 goyf and was appalled when i picked up maverick cuz it ran 0 goyf. it did not seem correct.
i am never playing goyf anymore if i can avoid it.

iScare
03-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Holy cow, i didn't know ooze went up. Last I checked, it was at $20 a piece. Wow...thank goodness i got an extra one off ebay when it was $10 a few months ago.

Time to sell Goyfs!!!

KobeBryan
03-29-2012, 02:38 PM
Holy cow, i didn't know ooze went up. Last I checked, it was at $20 a piece. Wow...thank goodness i got an extra one off ebay when it was $10 a few months ago.

Time to sell Goyfs!!!

you dont' own any goyfs.

Arcadia
03-29-2012, 04:42 PM
I literally face-palmed reading this.



Also what does this even mean? "Too cute, remember that there's a lot of powerful tricks it can pull off."

I don't see why you get like that. I think it is too cute because the other player may have a qasali instead of you and in some situations it may be weak. Gideon is ALWAYS good. I have not tested it though.

And well, mentioning the trick was for people who may not knew it.

Koby
03-29-2012, 05:29 PM
RE: Parallax Wave is better than Gideon in every situation except for superman mode. You can activate Wave without passing priority to a number of targets. If/when your opponent responds with his Pridemage all the targets have already been selected and destroying Wave would now turn it into a multiple STP spell.

iScare
03-29-2012, 06:24 PM
RE: Parallax Wave is better than Gideon in every situation except for superman mode. You can activate Wave without passing priority to a number of targets. If/when your opponent responds with his Pridemage all the targets have already been selected and destroying Wave would now turn it into a multiple STP spell.

Sorry, I've always been confused about this trick. I want to understand it correctly. You said if your opponent responds with Pridemage when Parallax Wave is activited, it'll become like multiple STP. I know this probably won't happen, but if they don't respond to your activation, but use Pridemage to destroy the wave, those exiled creatures return right? I just want to understand this trick and hopefully i can do it right.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-29-2012, 06:27 PM
Yes, but if they have a Pridemage on board it should be one of your Wave targets. Pridemage is therefore only effective against Wave if it's dropped after the Wave. In which case you still got a lot out of it, generally.

Tao
03-29-2012, 06:48 PM
You have to be precise about Wave. Qasali Pridemage should not only be one of your targets, he should be the last target that you target before passing priority.

For example if your opponent has a Pridemage and two Knight of the Reliquary that you want to get rid of for three turns you play Parallax Wave, immediately target both KotR, then Qasali, then pass Priority. If he destroys Wave now the Knights will be forever lost so he will not do that. If you target Pridemage first he could wait for the other activations to resolve and then destroy Wave and the KotR would come back

Koby
03-29-2012, 11:42 PM
I was in a haste to post before I started to jump on the highway, but Tao and IBA have added the necessary steps - Pridemage should be the last target in the chain before passing priority.

EDIT:
If they let PWave resolve on Pridemage, you've just exiled their team for 1-X turns - congrats, now alpha strike.
If they don't let PWave resolve on Pridemage and kill it, they make the situation far worse.

Chances are, they could destroy it next turn, but with careful play you can make it so they don't have another turn.