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View Full Version : [EDH] Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (formerly Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon)



Kuma
04-21-2011, 02:12 PM
http://www.jfkmagic.sakura.ne.jp/Magicpromo/862_on7jkpe3m4.jpg

Lands (36):

Cabal Coffers
Bloodstained Mire
Deserted Temple
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
26 Snow-Covered Swamp
Verdant Catacombs
Marsh Flats
Polluted Delta
Vesuva
Buried Ruin
Thespian's Stage

Acceleration (17):

Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Gauntlet of Power
Basalt Monolith
Candelabra of Tawnos
Nirkana Revenant
Caged Sun
Mana Vault
Worn Powerstone
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus
Crypt Ghast
Black Market
Everflowing Chalice
Magus of the Coffers
Grim Monolith
Burnished Hart

Card Draw/Selection (4):

Sensei's Divining Top
Memory Jar
Promise of Power
Necropotence

Tutors (13):

Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Expedition Map
Beseech the Queen
Shred Memory
Praetor's Grasp
Grim Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Cruel Tutor
Imperial Seal
Increasing Ambition
Diabolic Revelation

Removal/Sweepers (15):

Damnation
Barter in Blood
Ashes to Ashes
Innocent Blood
Oblivion Stone
All is Dust
Karn Liberated
Decree of Pain
The Abyss
Spreading Plague
Toxic Deluge
No Mercy
Infest
Withering Wisps
Dread

Graveyard Recursion (3):

Yawgmoth's Will
Crucible of Worlds
Mimic Vat

Miscellaneous (11):

Leyline of the Void
Helm of Obedience
Rings of Brighthearth
Exsanguinate
Infernal Darkness
Silent Arbiter
Ensnaring Bridge
Sculpting Steel
Staff of Domination
Ward of Bones
Crawlspace

It's a pretty straightforward deck. Punish people who attack you, and control the game until you're ready to kill with:

Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth + Sensei's Divining Top/Exsanguinate
Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void
Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth + Sensei's Divining Top/Exsanguinate
Magus of the Coffers + Staff of Domination

Your best tutor target is usually Cabal Coffers, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Deserted Temple, Vesuva, or Candelabra of Tawnos, as these cards combine to generate an insane amount of mana in this deck. Later in the game, Yawgmoth's Will is your best bet.

Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is a deck that relies on subtlety and your opponents being more afraid of each other than of you. There's a saying in my EDH group: "The third player to be scary wins the game." Basically, the first person who does something insanely powerful gets hated out by the other players, the second player to do so gets whatever is left of the counters/removal, but by the third time someone tries to win the game no one has enough cards left to stop them. Your goal with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is to be the third player who tries to win the game.

The best way to play is to sit back while building up cards and mana for the first six to eight turns of the game. Try not to do anything overtly threatening until your opponents have blown their loads. Tutor for cards like Cabal Coffers that set you up for the long game without drawing attention to yourself. Let your opponents over-commit to building up their board state then blow an Oblivion Stone or cast All is Dust. All those extra cards you drew and all that extra mana from Cabal Coffers should leave you better off than everyone else. If you're going for an instant kill like Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void, play and use it in a single turn whenever possible. Leaving half of a kill out there will draw attention to yourself and make your opponents target you every time you play a tutor.

As the speed in which your playgroup kills varies, you're going to have to adjust the deck to continue being the third scary person.

TheArchitect
04-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Looks very solid, I love decks with minimal creatures.

Any reason Maze of ith didn't make the list?

Some kind of GY hate should probably get fit in their somewhere, maybe Bojuka Bog?

Kuma
04-21-2011, 09:06 PM
Any reason Maze of ith didn't make the list?

If a land isn't a Snow-Covered Swamp I need a really good reason to run it. This deck uses Cabal Coffers a lot and needs a critical mass of swamps to work properly.

I run so many ways to kill creatures. Why settle for untapping them?


Some kind of GY hate should probably get fit in their somewhere, maybe Bojuka Bog?

I run Leyline of the Void and Shred Memory. I could run more, but my metagame has kind of moved away from graveyard decks.

TheArchitect
04-21-2011, 09:43 PM
Ya true about the maze of ith. Caged Sun will be a nice 2nd gauntlet after NPH.


I run Leyline of the Void and Shred Memory. I could run more, but my metagame has kind of moved away from graveyard decks.

I am an idiot. I didn't even think of using them for that effect effect haha! I was just looking at them as a combo piece and a tutor.

Kuma
04-26-2011, 12:12 PM
Caged Sun will be a nice 2nd gauntlet after NPH.

True dat.

After New Phyrexia, I'm going to make the following changes:

- Strata Scythe
- Extraplanar Lens
- No Mercy
- Crystal Ball

+ Lashwrithe
+ Praetor's Grasp
+ Karn Liberated
+ Caged Sun

EDIT:

More changes:

- Necrologia
- Temporal Aperture
- Prototype Portal
- Venser's Journal

+ All is Dust
+ Nirkana Revenant
+ Solemn Simulacrum
+ Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Kuma
05-30-2011, 12:43 PM
+ Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
+ Beacon of Unrest

- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Sigil of Distinction

I want a way to get back a counterspelled Yawgmoth's Will, and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is about my only option. Since people keep destroying my Cabal Coffers, I want more ways to get it back besides Yawgmoth's Will and Crucible of Worlds. Beacon of Unrest lets me get back a destroyed Crucible of Worlds, while giving me lots of other options. Also considered were Ill-Gotten Gains and Grim Discovery.

After adding All is Dust, Nevinyrral's Disk was slow and redundant. I don't like cutting the Sigil of Distinction, but it's been a long time since I used it to kill someone. Anyone have another suggestion for something I could cut?

Bignasty197
05-30-2011, 07:45 PM
It's a little pricey, but Life's Finale can really screw someone over. I play it in my Vorosh deck and it works like a charm. It also has good synergy with Beacon of Unrest.

Kuma
05-31-2011, 02:08 PM
It's a little pricey, but Life's Finale can really screw someone over. I play it in my Vorosh deck and it works like a charm. It also has good synergy with Beacon of Unrest.

I don't think the deck needs more sweepers right now, but if it did, Life's Finale would be in the running with Overwhelming Forces, Decree of Pain, and Black Sun's Zenith. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages. I like that Life's Finale only costs six and has the potential to do cool things, but I like the card draw from Overwhelming Forces and Decree of Pain.

Life's Finale is the definite front-runner should I decide to add another sweeper.

Any thoughts on a better cut than Sigil of Distinction?

Davran
05-31-2011, 04:34 PM
I don't think the deck needs more sweepers right now, but if it did, Life's Finale would be in the running with Overwhelming Forces, Decree of Pain, and Black Sun's Zenith. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages. I like that Life's Finale only costs six and has the potential to do cool things, but I like the card draw from Overwhelming Forces and Decree of Pain.

Life's Finale is the definite front-runner should I decide to add another sweeper.

Any thoughts on a better cut than Sigil of Distinction?

You should read the Oracle text on Overwhelming Forces...they hit it pretty hard for multiplayer magic.

Kuma
06-02-2011, 04:41 PM
You should read the Oracle text on Overwhelming Forces...they hit it pretty hard for multiplayer magic.

Yikes! Good point.

- Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet

+ Sheoldred, Whispering One

There was too much overlap between Avatar of Woe and Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet. I stuck with Avatar of Woe because it could potentially cost two mana, had evasion, and doesn't cost mana to activate. Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet's ability to make creatures wasn't relevant in my testing, because the deck almost always kills with poison counters, Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo, or a huge Exsanguinate.

Sheoldred, Whispering One lets me attack creatures from a different angle, and also does potentially ridiculous things with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.

BornToGrill
06-21-2011, 04:30 AM
Hi! Very nice deck! Do you think it's playable without Candelabra of Tawnos?

Kage
06-21-2011, 11:42 AM
@BorntoGrill: It sure is.

@Kuma: I'd definitely add Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ambition's Cost and Unspeakable Symbol. Also, I'm not sure if Praetor's Grasp worth it in MP Games.[/cards]

Sims
06-21-2011, 11:55 AM
@BorntoGrill: It sure is.

@Kuma: I'd definitely add Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ambition's Cost and Unspeakable Symbol. Also, I'm not sure if Praetor's Grasp worth it in MP Games.[/cards]

Be careful with Eldrazi titans. I know this is a black deck and most mono-black EDH tends to be very board controlling, but make sure that if you run any huge fat in your deck that it's something you can handle. I'm convinced that with the printing of more and more rediculous fat creatures that the golden rule of EDH should be:

Thou shall not put any creature in your deck that you can't deal with when your opponent casts Bribery on you.

I'm actually removing Blightsteel from my Sharuum deck because I hate having to waste tutors to find bounce or Duplicant my own Blightsteel.

Koby
06-21-2011, 12:12 PM
With Xiahuo, you can easily playout Fleshbag Marauder to prevent such shenanigans from occuring. Since they're both in the deck, Corpse Dance also becomes much more attractive as an alternate to Yawgmoth's Will. It especially combos well with 187 creatures and sacrifice effects.

Kuma
06-22-2011, 12:23 PM
Hi! Very nice deck! Do you think it's playable without Candelabra of Tawnos?

Absolutely. The deck's main mana engine is Cabal Coffers, and I'd say that's the only card the deck isn't playable without. I wouldn't have Candelabra of Tawnos in here except that I picked one up cheap from a LGS for $81.


@Kuma: I'd definitely add Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ambition's Cost and Unspeakable Symbol. Also, I'm not sure if Praetor's Grasp worth it in MP Games.

I've thought about adding Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, but I'm not sure what to cut, and I'm not sure the deck needs more than one Eldrazi titan. If you can suggest a reasonable cut, I'm open to trying him out.

The reason I run Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper but don't run Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving is mana cost. This deck doesn't do much on the first few turns of the game, so Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper give me something to do on what would otherwise be a wasted turn. Lots of cards in my deck cost four or more mana, which means Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving are competing with business spells for my time. I know it's a good idea mathematically speaking to run Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving, but I'm not sure where they fit and they'd probably sit in my hand until the late game most of the time.

Unspeakable Symbol is too costly and too risky. Compare it to Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe. To turn Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a one-hit kill, Unspeakable Symbol costs three mana and eighteen life. Nightmare Lash costs four mana and three life, Lashwrithe costs four to six mana and zero to four life. Also, if they kill Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon after you make him huge, you paid half your life for nothing and you almost certainly won't be able to pay that much life again. My equipment doesn't have that problem.

What do you mean Praetor's Grasp isn't worth it in multi-player? At worst it's a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. At best it could be a Cabal Coffers, Yawgmoth's Will, Oblivion Stone, etc.


With Xiahuo, you can easily playout Fleshbag Marauder to prevent such shenanigans from occuring. Since they're both in the deck, Corpse Dance also becomes much more attractive as an alternate to Yawgmoth's Will. It especially combos well with 187 creatures and sacrifice effects.

I don't think I run enough creatures to make Corpse Dance worth it, and I'm definitely not cutting Yawgmoth's Will for it. I like the idea, but it's going to be a dead card most of the time.

Kuma
07-18-2011, 01:59 PM
I want to make the following changes:

- Mana Vault
- Thran Dynamo
- Consuming Vapors
- Mind Shatter

+ Grim Tutor
+ Buried Ruin
+ Petrified Field
+ Bojuka Bog
+ Demonic Collusion

You'll notice that that's five adds but only four cuts. I'm looking for suggestions for a fifth cut. Does anyone have any ideas?

Tog
07-18-2011, 02:15 PM
In a deck packed with tutors, is a combo win really that fun? Helm/Void seems like a pretty boring way to win.

On a side note, for a deck that need to meet it's land drop every turn, I really like Armillary Sphere and Journeyer's Kite.

Is Memory Jar that good? I understand that it's a draw seven but when I used to play it, I typically had to throw it out there unprotected and hope it didn't get blown up for a turn in order to have mana to use the new cards.

AlexAI
07-18-2011, 02:30 PM
You'll notice that that's five adds but only four cuts. I'm looking for suggestions for a fifth cut. Does anyone have any ideas?

Dimir Machinations since you're putting in two more tutor effects? Maybe Karn?

Kuma
07-18-2011, 06:01 PM
In a deck packed with tutors, is a combo win really that fun? Helm/Void seems like a pretty boring way to win.

Winning is boring?


On a side note, for a deck that need to meet it's land drop every turn, I really like Armillary Sphere and Journeyer's Kite.

I've given those cards lots of consideration in the past, because it's important for this deck to hit its land drops. The problem with Journeyer's Kite is that spending that much mana to hit your land drops stops you from doing anything for a long time. Once you get seven or eight mana, i.e. with Cabal Coffers, land drops become less important. My most tutored for card is Cabal Coffers followed by Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which mitigates the need for land drops somewhat. It's not like I'm lacking cards that help me hit land drops in the first place.

Armillary Sphere might be worth a look, but right now I need to cut a card not add another one. I'll worry about trying it later.


Is Memory Jar that good? I understand that it's a draw seven but when I used to play it, I typically had to throw it out there unprotected and hope it didn't get blown up for a turn in order to have mana to use the new cards.

With the absurd amount of mana this deck can make, you often don't have to wait a turn to pop your Memory Jar. Even if you do and they destroy it, that's still one less piece of hate for your other cards. I like running things my opponents have to destroy.


Dimir Machinations since you're putting in two more tutor effects? Maybe Karn?

Tutors are the best cards in the deck. They're all pretty much untouchable. You can't have too many tutors in EDH. That's why Dimir Machinations and Dimir House Guard are in the deck. Karn Liberated might get cut, but one of my biggest problems is not being able to answer problem artifacts and enchantments. There are only so many ways to do that in mono-black.

EDIT:

I decided that the last cut is going to be Gilded Lotus. Opening post updated.

LegacyStudent
07-28-2011, 04:05 PM
I'd recommend fitting an Infernal Darkness into your list somewhere (maybe in place of Mind Slaver?). It can buy you the time needed for a few General kills, particularly if you drop it immediately after a Wrath effect. What is the poison counter limit in Commander anyway?

Also in the offhand chance that you actually own one and overlooked it, Imperial Seal should be in the deck.

Kuma
07-29-2011, 11:22 AM
I'd recommend fitting an Infernal Darkness into your list somewhere (maybe in place of Mind Slaver?). It can buy you the time needed for a few General kills, particularly if you drop it immediately after a Wrath effect.

I like this idea. I like it a lot. I'll see about fitting one in.


What is the poison counter limit in Commander anyway?

It's still ten poison counters.


Also in the offhand chance that you actually own one and overlooked it, Imperial Seal should be in the deck.

Yeah, I don't own an Imperial Seal. Hopefully that will change soon. It's definitely going in here if/when I get one.

EDIT:

- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
- Avatar of Woe
- Chainer's Edict

+ Infernal Darkness
+ Cruel Tutor
+ Insidious Dreams

I never won a game with Ulamog all the time he was in my deck. I got precious little out of Avatar of Woe, too. I had a hard time deciding between Chainer's Edict and Sundering Titan for the last cut. Let me know if I made the right decision.

Infernal Darkness is stupid good and will often lock your opponents out of the game for multiple turns. Unlike Contamination, it doesn't affect the amount of mana a land produces which means Cabal Coffers still taps for a billion. As an added bonus, you can get black out of Wasteland, Strip Mine, etc.

Cruel Tutor is another efficient tutor I wasn't running. Seems like it should be in there.

Insidious Dreams is probably a top five tutor in EDH and I don't know why more decks aren't running it. Gets you Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed + Sheoldred, Whispering One, etc. If you have the cards in hand and the mana, you can also put a Night's Whisper or a Sign in Blood on top of your two-card combo and draw both pieces in one turn.

Maybe it's time to look at Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving again.

Lemuria
08-13-2011, 04:54 PM
So, how is this deck treating you so far? I'm about to run a very similar lists and want some feedback about your playstile and the rewards. I play in a very competitive metagame, with Godo, Zur and Sharuum being on top of the food chain.

Kuma
08-15-2011, 02:15 PM
So, how is this deck treating you so far? I'm about to run a very similar lists and want some feedback about your playstile and the rewards. I play in a very competitive metagame, with Godo, Zur and Sharuum being on top of the food chain.

Skithiryx is a deck that relies on subtlety and your opponents being more afraid of each other than of you. There's a saying in my EDH group: "The third player to be scary wins the game." Basically, the first person who does something insanely powerful gets hated out by the other players, the second player to do so gets whatever is left of the counters/removal, but by the third time someone tries to win the game no one has enough cards left to stop them. Your goal with Skithiryx is to be the third player who tries to win the game.

The best way to play is to sit back while building up cards and mana for the first six to eight turns of the game. Try not to do anything overtly threatening until your opponents have blown their loads. Tutor for cards like Cabal Coffers and Phyrexian Arena that set you up for the long game without drawing attention to yourself. Let your opponents over-commit to building up their board state then blow an Oblivion Stone or cast All is Dust. All those extra cards you drew and all that extra mana from Cabal Coffers should leave you better off than everyone else. If you're going for an instant kill like Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void or Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon + Nightmare Lash, play and use it in a single turn whenever possible. Leaving half of a kill out there will draw attention to yourself and make your opponents target you every time you play a tutor.

As the speed in which your playgroup kills varies, you're going to have to adjust your deck to continue being the third scary person. Right now, I find that in my playgroup I'm usually a turn too slow to win the game. As such, I've been brainstorming ways to make the deck a little faster.

You're kind of reliant on your opponents being able to stop each other. With all the creature removal, you shouldn't have too much trouble stopping Godo and Zur, but it looks like all three of you could have trouble stopping Sharuum. If Sharuum is problematic, I'd recommend running more graveyard hate and possibly Nevinyrral's Disk.

Lemuria
08-15-2011, 09:19 PM
What about two or three more creatures with infect that could grab a Nightmare Lash too? also, what's your opinion on Howl from Beyond and Hatred?? Maybe it could get you a kill out of nowhere. Your opponents might not see it coming if you don't have any equipment in play.

Kuma
08-15-2011, 11:52 PM
What about two or three more creatures with infect that could grab a Nightmare Lash too? also, what's your opinion on Howl from Beyond and Hatred?? Maybe it could get you a kill out of nowhere. Your opponents might not see it coming if you don't have any equipment in play.

If you're playing Skithiryx like Infect Stompy, you're doing it wrong.

We don't need to run any creatures just because they have infect, because our general has infect and we can cast him and give him haste whenever we need to. Even if Skithiryx gets tucked, we have 14 tutors that can go find him. Other infect creatures will be almost always be subpar draws or redundant with the general.

I'd run Sigil of Distinction and Shade's Form before anything like Howl from Beyond and Hatred. I want cards that can kill multiple players when combined with the general, not one-and-dones. Running lots of cards like Howl from Beyond encourage you to play aggressively, and that's the wrong way to take mono-Black in competitive EDH.

Remember, the third player to be scary wins the game.

Lemuria
08-16-2011, 12:20 AM
I understand your point and it makes sense. The bad part is that I don't own a Candelabra neither the expensive tutors, like imperial seal or cruel tutor. I got all others mentioned in your list though.

And I understand that going mono black control is the way to go, I also like how this deck can deal with things that normaly a pure mono black couldn't deal with, thanks to Karn, Oblivion, Steel Hellkite and All is Dust.

Kuma
08-16-2011, 01:31 PM
I understand your point and it makes sense. The bad part is that I don't own a Candelabra neither the expensive tutors, like imperial seal or cruel tutor. I got all others mentioned in your list though.

Don't worry, Candelabra of Tawnos isn't necessary and neither are the super-expensive tutors. Just look at some of the most recent cuts and replace anything you don't have/can't get with those.

Lemuria
08-23-2011, 07:27 PM
Do you think that Boseiju is needed on this deck, maybe to protect your discards and exsanguinate kills? Counterspells are becoming a problem where I play.

Kuma
08-24-2011, 11:28 AM
Ehh, I don't think Boseiju, who Shelters All is absolutely necessary, but if you're dealing with counterspells everywhere, you could give it a shot. I'd probably cut a spell for it, as I'm always hesitant to run non-Snow-Covered Swamp lands.

There are certainly counterspells in my group, but not so many that I've considered running Boseiju. You could also try running Thoughtseize, Duress, and possibly even Inquisition of Kozilek. All three of these are very underrated in EDH and should help you out with your counterspell problem while pulling double duty.

Kuma
09-02-2011, 10:42 AM
Innistrad changes:

- Karn Liberated
- Necropotence
- Wasteland

+ Bloodgift Demon
+ Snow-Covered Swamp
+ ???

Karn Liberated was a seven-mana Vindicate. If I really wanted a seven-mana Vindicate, I'd run Spine of Ish Sah, because at least there's some upside there. I also got tired of automatically losing to Mindslaver so I cut Necropotence. Tutoring for it in a four player game usually got me killed anyway. Wasteland was never being used for its intended purpose, so I figured it might as well be another Snow-Covered Swamp.

Bloodgift Demon should be a fantastic source of card advantage while being a backup beater. I need suggestions for something to try instead of Necropotence.

LegacyStudent
09-02-2011, 11:25 AM
Are you looking for another card advantage source to fill the role of Necropotence? I've had success with Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving in my Xiahou Dun list. Instead of throwing another swamp into the deck, you could try either Terrain Generator or Thawing Glaciers.

Also, depending on the other decks in your meta, you might consider Sorin Markov over Mindslaver.

Kuma
09-02-2011, 06:03 PM
Are you looking for another card advantage source to fill the role of Necropotence? I've had success with Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving in my Xiahou Dun list.

I'm really just looking for any good card to put in. Right now, the frontrunners are Nevinyrral's Disk, Ambition's Cost, and Ancient Craving.


Instead of throwing another swamp into the deck, you could try either Terrain Generator or Thawing Glaciers.

I'm not a fan of either of those lands. They take up too much mana and time.


Also, depending on the other decks in your meta, you might consider Sorin Markov over Mindslaver.

This deck doesn't protect planeswalkers well. When you're trying to kill with poison, putting someone at 10 isn't that great either. I'll think about it, but Sorin Markov probably isn't going in.

I really have to thank you. Infernal Darkness has been nothing short of amazing since I added it.

Lemuria
09-03-2011, 04:06 PM
One question about the combo Leyline + Helm of Obedience works

The oracle says: Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first.

Well, since no cards are put into his grave, X will never be reached, and that means you will mill the entire deck?

Kuma
09-04-2011, 04:22 PM
One question about the combo Leyline + Helm of Obedience works

The oracle says: Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first.

Well, since no cards are put into his grave, X will never be reached, and that means you will mill the entire deck?

Exactly, but you have to pay at least one mana for the Helm activation.

Lemuria
09-20-2011, 09:22 PM
So after some plays and getting used to this deck, I finally get to tune the deck as I see fit in my meta. I would definetly not cut Wastedland, people here seems to love to run Maze of Ith. I was surprised that I did extremly good on 1x1 matches. I destroyed Kaalia and Balthor decks, and after some annoying but still victorius matches against Azami and Arbiter Augustin IV, I'm definetly adding Boseju. I'll maybe add Kozilek too, people loves to mill decks these days.....

How Sundering Titan and Drana goes for you? I can see a Titan making it in, but I haven't found any useful situation for Drana yet

Kuma
09-21-2011, 10:30 AM
So after some plays and getting used to this deck, I finally get to tune the deck as I see fit in my meta. I would definetly not cut Wastedland, people here seems to love to run Maze of Ith.

It's funny, because after I wrote my Innistrad changes post, I won an epic game because I had Wasteland and Strip Mine to take out a Karador, Ghost Chieftain player's mana just enough to buy me a turn to kill him. As for Maze of Ith, we still have Strip Mine, Sundering Titan + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, lots of tutors to find them, and backup victory conditions.

I'm still thinking about Wasteland. It might not get cut after all.


I was surprised that I did extremly good on 1x1 matches. I destroyed Kaalia and Balthor decks, and after some annoying but still victorius matches against Azami and Arbiter Augustin IV,

Skithiryx is pretty good 1 vs. 1 against creature-based decks since you run a billion ways to clear the board. Glad to hear you're doing well against some pretty powerful decks!


I'm definetly adding Boseju. I'll maybe add Kozilek too, people loves to mill decks these days.....

What sort of mill decks are you facing? Kozilek, Butcher of Truth doesn't protect you from Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void, or Oona, Queen of the Fae. It usually won't save you from Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell either, because once your opponent draws his deck he can usually go infinite mana and kill you with a Stroke of Genius/Blue Sun's Zenith, etc.



How Sundering Titan and Drana goes for you? I can see a Titan making it in, but I haven't found any useful situation for Drana yet

They're a little on the weak side, but they have their uses. Sundering Titan + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth ensures you never have to blow up your own lands, and allows you to destroy lands like Gaea's Cradle, Academy Ruins and Maze of Ith. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief is useful for her ability to kill multiple creatures. She also functions as another win condition if you get infinite mana.

You could cut either card and the deck wouldn't lose much. I haven't found anything better, but I'll take suggestions as always.

Lemuria
09-22-2011, 06:07 PM
What sort of mill decks are you facing? Kozilek, Butcher of Truth doesn't protect you from Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void, or Oona, Queen of the Fae. It usually won't save you from Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell either, because once your opponent draws his deck he can usually go infinite mana and kill you with a Stroke of Genius/Blue Sun's Zenith, etc.

Basically Tunnel Vision and a Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour + Altar of Dementia combo. Also, I like Kozilek more than I like Ulamog. He's bigger, cheaper, gives me huge card advantage and it's easier to deal if some opponent casts Bribery on me, assuming that my only answer is a Damnation. In the end I think that's only personal preference.

Kuma
09-28-2011, 10:25 AM
I've got an Imperial Seal coming in the mail. This makes the final Innistrad changes:

- Karn Liberated
- Necropotence
- Wasteland

+ Bloodgift Demon
+ Imperial Seal
+ Snow-Covered Swamp

Lemuria
09-28-2011, 11:21 PM
I've got an Imperial Seal coming in the mail. This makes the final Innistrad changes:

- Karn Liberated
- Necropotence
- Wasteland

+ Bloodgift Demon
+ Imperial Seal
+ Snow-Covered Swamp

Wow Imperial Seal!!!!! One day I'll work my ass out to get one for my deck and one for our Cube Draft.

So, how does your list looks like after Innistrad? Are you going to use the new Liliana?

Kuma
09-30-2011, 10:06 AM
The list in the OP is my current list. I update it every time I make a change.

I won't be using Liliana of the Veil because this deck doesn't protect planeswalkers well. Most games I'll activate her once and then she'll die. With Liliana Vess at least my one activation is a tutor. With Liliana of the Veil I'm not getting that kind of value.

Kuma
11-04-2011, 10:37 AM
- Mind Twist
- Mind Sludge
- Cabal Conditioning
- Myojin of Night's Reach

+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Withered Wretch
+ Mana Vault
+ Nevinyrral's Disk

The discard spells have been increasingly terrible for me. By the time I can cast my discard spells, my opponents already have an incredible board presence. Myojin of Night's Reach might go back in, but right now I don't think I'll miss him.

There are too many broken graveyard decks out there to be running so little graveyard hate. Tormod's Crypt may be a better add than Withered Wretch, but for now I'm going to try the Wretch.

The deck has been a little too slow recently. I've added Mana Vault to speed it up a little, but there needs to be more acceleration. I need suggestions for good acceleration pieces, mana rocks, etc.

More than ever, I've been needing to sweep the board at an earlier and earlier turn. I think this warrants the re-adding of Nevinyrral's Disk.

Davran
11-04-2011, 11:07 AM
The deck has been a little too slow recently. I've added Mana Vault to speed it up a little, but there needs to be more acceleration. I need suggestions for good acceleration pieces, mana rocks, etc.

One of my "hidden gem" acceleration cards is Black Market. I find that people don't pack as much enchantment hate as they probably should and that there are plenty of decks out there that just can't deal with it at all. You're already running plenty of removal, so who knows...this might get there for you.

Of course you could always just go down the Thran Dynamo road. Or, pick up a Jet Medallion. Charcoal Diamond is another option, as is Coldsteel Heart.

Kuma
11-04-2011, 06:04 PM
One of my "hidden gem" acceleration cards is Black Market. I find that people don't pack as much enchantment hate as they probably should and that there are plenty of decks out there that just can't deal with it at all. You're already running plenty of removal, so who knows...this might get there for you.

Black Market is a card I've liked for a long time, but I think it's too slow for my purposes. I need stuff that can power out a fast sweeper.


Of course you could always just go down the Thran Dynamo road. Or, pick up a Jet Medallion. Charcoal Diamond is another option, as is Coldsteel Heart.

Those are more like what I'm looking for. I'd prefer cards that give me extra lands since they survive sweepers, but my options are sadly lacking in black.

I'll keep you guys updated when I figure this out.

Kuma
01-25-2012, 02:59 PM
Dark Ascension changes:

- Liliana Vess

+ Increasing Ambition

For five mana I can either tutor to the top of my deck once, maybe twice, or tutor to my hand once with the possibility of tutoring to my hand twice more for another mana investment. Seems like a straight upgrade.

Amon Amarth
01-26-2012, 04:41 AM
I'm running a list that's pretty similar to yours with a few differences. Have you considered using Dark Ritual as a 2nd Mana Vault? I've been happy with it. First turn Arena is so good.

I've recently added Grave Titan to my deck and he is such a beast. Most of the decks in my play group are filled with tons of utility dorks, small beaters, and Titan puts a stop to that shit real fast. He is an incredible standalone threat.

Also, you misspelled Nihil Spellbomb. :P

Kuma
01-26-2012, 02:29 PM
I'm running a list that's pretty similar to yours with a few differences. Have you considered using Dark Ritual as a 2nd Mana Vault? I've been happy with it. First turn Arena is so good.

I hadn't considered it, but that's a good idea. In my playgroup, this deck definitely needs to be able to reset the game faster.


I've recently added Grave Titan to my deck and he is such a beast. Most of the decks in my play group are filled with tons of utility dorks, small beaters, and Titan puts a stop to that shit real fast. He is an incredible standalone threat.

I'm kind of in a tough spot with this deck. My playgroup has gone "nuclear" and this deck has become too slow. It's also difficult for it to interact with all the crazy artifacts. I'm not sure where to take the deck from here. Grave Titan seems like it would be a fine inclusion in a slower group, but it's a little too slow for me. We're working on building some decks for when we're tired of wailing on each other with Sharuum the Hegemon, Arcum Dagsson, and Oona, Queen of the Fae. I might use Skithiryx for that, and then I'll be able to decide if Grave Titan is good enough.


Also, you misspelled Nihil Spellbomb. :P

Thanks. I blame the American educational system for teaching me that Nihil was spelled N-e-c-r-o-g-e-n. :smile:

Amon Amarth
01-26-2012, 03:46 PM
In hyper competitive playgroups Needle/Revoker seems like it would be super good. You can drop it on Necro to screw Zur or just hit Azami, Arcum, etc. There really aren't a ton of good cards to deal with artifacts except Gate to Phyrexia but that only works in more creature heavy decks.

Davran
03-06-2012, 10:19 AM
I'm sure everyone has probably moved on from this deck...but maybe there is some historical perspective:

Other than the "rule of 3rd best", have you had any issues with people hating you out simply because your general has infect? I'm looking for a new direction to take my next EDH deck, and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for "mono-black control"...I'm just mostly afraid Skittles will put a big target on my chest no matter how I play it.

As far as the artifact and enchantment destruction problem - I used to run a Drana list way back when I first got into this format, and I found that if something was a problem for me it was probably also a problem for the other two players at the table. It's nice to be able to answer everything, but this isn't 1v1...so playing politics is a must.

Kuma
03-06-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm sure everyone has probably moved on from this deck...but maybe there is some historical perspective:

I wouldn't say I've "moved on." This is still my favorite EDH deck I've ever built. It's about 3/4 pimped out, and an absolute blast to play. It doesn't handle top-tier artifact decks very well, but I think if I added Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker it would go a long way towards fixing that.


Other than the "rule of 3rd best", have you had any issues with people hating you out simply because your general has infect? I'm looking for a new direction to take my next EDH deck, and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for "mono-black control"...I'm just mostly afraid Skittles will put a big target on my chest no matter how I play it.

I've never been targeted for my general having Infect (that I'm aware of). I usually bust this out to play with random people since it has problems handling my playgroup, and no one has ever complained about Infect. If you're worried about people targeting you for Infect, you could run Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or Maga, Traitor to Mortals as the general by changing maybe 2-3 cards.


As far as the artifact and enchantment destruction problem - I used to run a Drana list way back when I first got into this format, and I found that if something was a problem for me it was probably also a problem for the other two players at the table. It's nice to be able to answer everything, but this isn't 1v1...so playing politics is a must.

That's true, but the other two people in may playgroup are rocking Sharuum the Hegemon and Arcum Dagsson. Both are fast combo decks that are light on answers. This deck has a hard time interacting with artifacts. Also, we know each other's decks so well that Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon has lost about all its stealth factor. When I'm playing with strangers, I can sit there and tutor while looking innocent, but my playgroup knows to target me after the second tutor. It's gotten to the point where they know how much mana to keep me off of just by the cards I've played. It's still fun to hear strangers say, "I had no idea he was about to combo." Even after I've played several tutors. :tongue:

Davran
03-06-2012, 03:01 PM
I wouldn't say I've "moved on." This is still my favorite EDH deck I've ever built. It's about 3/4 pimped out, and an absolute blast to play. It doesn't handle top-tier artifact decks very well, but I think if I added Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker it would go a long way towards fixing that.

Nothing really handles the top tier artifact decks well given the amount of recursion and redundancy that they have. I find that I place a premium on spells that will exile something simply because they can't get it back.

That said, it seems Leyline of the Void might create a problem for a Sharuum player.



I've never been targeted for my general having Infect (that I'm aware of). I usually bust this out to play with random people since it has problems handling my playgroup, and no one has ever complained about Infect. If you're worried about people targeting you for Infect, you could run Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or Maga, Traitor to Mortals as the general by changing maybe 2-3 cards.

I've always wanted to run Xiahou Dun, but he is way out of my price range. Maybe some day I'll be lucky enough to get my hands on one...but until then I'm stuck squarely on the "budget" end of the table. Hell, I'm super excited about the Crucible of Worlds I finally acquired.


Also, we know each other's decks so well that Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon has lost about all its stealth factor. When I'm playing with strangers, I can sit there and tutor while looking innocent, but my playgroup knows to target me after the second tutor. It's gotten to the point where they know how much mana to keep me off of just by the cards I've played. It's still fun to hear strangers say, "I had no idea he was about to combo." Even after I've played several tutors. :tongue:

This is the exact problem I am having with my Glissa list, which is leading me here. I love the deck to death, but I'm finding people know my game plan almost by heart. I have to imagine that if someone wanted to they could easily shut me down with a well timed Jester's Cap or some similar effect.

As a follow-up, it seems Skittles is more of your backup win - do you find you end up "comboing out" via Coffers + Exsanguinate more often than you win via slapping a Lashwrite on Skittles and going to town?

Lastly, what do you think of Koskun Falls? Obviously the list in the OP can't really support it due to the low creature count, but it seems like the kind of thing no one would ever expect out of a mono-black deck.

Kuma
03-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Nothing really handles the top tier artifact decks well given the amount of recursion and redundancy that they have.

This. I usually need to wipe the board to win, and I'm usually a turn too slow.


That said, it seems Leyline of the Void might create a problem for a Sharuum player.

It certainly does, but it's not really enough. If I don't have it in my opening hand, I can't cast it fast enough.


As a follow-up, it seems Skittles is more of your backup win - do you find you end up "comboing out" via Coffers + Exsanguinate more often than you win via slapping a Lashwrite on Skittles and going to town?

It's hard to say. Most of my wins come from infinite mana + Exsanguinate. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon + Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe is second followed by Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void. I'd guess the percentages are probably 55%/30%/15%.


Lastly, what do you think of Koskun Falls? Obviously the list in the OP can't really support it due to the low creature count, but it seems like the kind of thing no one would ever expect out of a mono-black deck.

It's a cute card that no one has heard of that grants an effect black normally doesn't get. That said, I think No Mercy and Dread are better for deterring attack.

Davran
03-07-2012, 09:13 AM
This. I usually need to wipe the board to win, and I'm usually a turn too slow.

Always a turn too slow to beat the combo...sounds like legacy now! I'm hoping for some more efficient black spells out of R&D, they've been getting dangerously close to something cool lately...seems like they're holding back. Too bad they aren't exercising the same restraint with blue cards...


It's hard to say. Most of my wins come from infinite mana + Exsanguinate. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon + Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe is second followed by Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void. I'd guess the percentages are probably 55%/30%/15%.

Good to know, thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking about running some other equipment (Strata Scythe is at the top of the list) but it seems I should be focusing more on the spell-based kill than poisoning them out.

Kuma
03-07-2012, 10:19 AM
Good to know, thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking about running some other equipment (Strata Scythe is at the top of the list) but it seems I should be focusing more on the spell-based kill than poisoning them out.

I used to run four equipment. Sigil of Distinction and Strata Scythe were the other two. Thing is, you have so many tutors that you don't need to run more than two equipment. One to kill them with and one in case they get rid of your first one.

Edit:

- Bloodgift Demon
- Scrying Sheets

+ Pithing Needle
+ Phyrexian Revoker

Amon Amarth
03-12-2012, 01:59 PM
@Kuma: Is Muse being 1 cheaper than Demon why you took it out instead? I like Demon more because I run Grafted Exoskeleton as well as Army of the Damned, the latter of which can make Muse awkward.

How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

Davran
03-12-2012, 02:16 PM
How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

Out of curiosity, what are you running in their place?

Also, slightly curious about the removal of Bloodgift Demon. It's a champ at drawing me cards, and it often eats up spot removal that would otherwise be pointed at one of my other dudes.

Amon Amarth
03-12-2012, 02:31 PM
Out of curiosity, what are you running in their place?

Necropotence and Ancient Craving.

Kuma
03-12-2012, 06:46 PM
@Kuma: Is Muse being 1 cheaper than Demon why you took it out instead? I like Demon more because I run Grafted Exoskeleton as well as Army of the Damned, the latter of which can make Muse awkward.

Yeah, that's why. I'm not running Grafted Exoskeleton or anything that makes zombies, so there's no awkwardness with Graveborn Muse. Bloodgift Demon's bigger body is totally irrelevant because I never win with combat damage.


How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

I don't think the Transmute tutors are narrow.

Dimir Machinations gets:

Grim Tutor, Cruel Tutor, or Praetor's Grasp -> anything
Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth for comboing.
Oblivion Stone for wiping the board.
Crucible of Worlds for getting Cabal Coffers back.
Phyrexian Arena for card draw.
Ashes to Ashes and Fleshbag Marauder for creature killing.
Yawgmoth's Will because dear God, have you ever cast Yawgmoth's Will?

Dimir House Guard gets:

Diabolic Tutor or Insidious Dreams -> anything
Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void for comboing.
Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe for killing with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon.
Nevinyrral's Disk for wiping the board.
Graveborn Muse for card drawing.
Solemn Simulacrum for mana acceleration.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed for graveyard recursion.
Infernal Darkness for winning.
Barter in Blood, Damnation, and Mutilate for creature killing.

tl;dr: Both Transmute tutors can find something to do pretty much whatever the deck wants to do. They're no Demonic Tutor, but they're not narrow.

Amon Amarth
03-12-2012, 07:54 PM
Tutor -> Tutor is way too durdly IMHO and they can't get Coffers or Urborg, basically. That's pretty much why I don't run them.

Hunding Gjornersen
03-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith . Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

Davran
03-13-2012, 01:32 PM
Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith . Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

Basalt Monolith works favorably with Rings of Brighthearth to produce "infinite" colorless mana. Grim Monolith doesn't accomplish the same thing, so I suspect that's why it isn't here.

Kuma
03-13-2012, 01:44 PM
Tutor -> Tutor is way too durdly IMHO and they can't get Coffers or Urborg, basically. That's pretty much why I don't run them.

You may be right. I've been known to have an unhealthy love for Transmute cards (favorite mechanic). As for getting Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, are there any cards that cost five or less that get them that I'm not running? I guess there's Liliana Vess, but she's kinda weaksauce.

Tutor -> Tutor is usually fine if you already have Cabal Coffers. The mana isn't as big of a deal.

I should probably take another look at Necropotence. I cut it because it put a bulls-eye on my forehead and almost guaranteed I lost to a Mindslaver with all the tutors I run. Anymore though, I could probably use the help.

I never liked Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving. When I ran them they usually sat in my hand because the deck has tons to do with four mana.

I'd love to see your list, Amon Amarth.


Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith . Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

Basalt Monolith combos with Rings of Brighthearth to make infinite mana. Grim Monolith doesn't combo with anything I can run. Grim Monolith might be worth it for the acceleration. That's the age-old debate with this deck: are the mana artifacts worth it when you're trying to be subtle?

I still haven't decided on that one, but Grim Monolith will definitely be added if I choose to go with mana rocks.

Amon Amarth
03-13-2012, 05:46 PM
Sure. There are a few slots that are in flux. Ancient Craving, while playable, is the first thing to get cut when I pick up Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal. Shizo and Sheets are both pretty good and have proven their worth but I think they might actually be better as Swamps. I don't want to have to lean on Urborg (or Tutor -> Urborg) too much.

Commander: Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon

Lands: 37
23 Snow-Covered Swamps
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Marsh Flats
Ancient Tomb
Scrying Sheets
Dark Depths
Bojuka Bog
Cabal Coffers
Strip Mine
Buried Ruin
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Vesuva
Deserted Temple

Ramp: 11
Dark Ritual
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun

Planeswalkers: 1
Sorin Markov

Tutors: 12
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Grasp
Insidious Dreams
Expedition Map
Cruel Tutor
Increasing Ambition

Card Draw: 4
Sensei's Divining Top
Necropotence
Promise of Power
Phyrexian Arena

Equipment: 3
Lashwrithe
Nightmare Lash
Grafted Exoskeleton

Creatures: 10
Sundering Titan
Steel Hellkite
Bloodgift Demon
Graveborn Muse
Myojin of Night's Reach
Grave Titan
Vampire Hexmage
Precursor Golem
Solemn Simulacrum
Nirkana Revenant

Removal: 7
Innocent Blood
Chainer's Edict
Barter in Blood
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Oblivion Stone
Nevinyrral's Disk

Recursion: 3
Yawgmoth's Will
Crucible of Worlds
Beacon of Unrest

Utility: 5
Rings of Brighthearth
Imp's Mischief
Tainted Strike
Nihil Spellbomb
Mind Twist

PEW PEW: 6
Exsanguinate
Mindslaver
Infernal Darkness
Army of the Damned
Helm of Obedience
Leyline of the Void

Greaves seems redundant but its great for when you're going for a Suicide Morphling (Angel Gambit for old-school players) tactic. It saves you a mana and shroud is incredibly important against Treachery-esque effects, which are brutal. Exoskeleton is OK. Sometimes good, sometimes meh. The problem is that decks in my playgroup aren't very tuned so it's pretty much me curbstomping a table which is satisfying for me but it can get old for them so I have to switch it up more often than I'd like. I never find myself in need of giving anything else infect because Skithiryx has already crushed them. Forever alone.

I run about every good mana rock I can get my hands on. It allows me to be explosive early game while maintaining a Coffers-powered late game. Coalition Relic is surprisingly good here, always happy to see it. Dark Ritual is pretty good too. I thought that it would be dead mid/late game but it's always been good. You always want mana. Late game it fuels Yawg's Will and mid-game it powers out bombs.

Ancient Tomb is awesome. More acceleration. I've always been very happy to see it. Auto-include. Dark Depths is fine. It's the only land that doesn't produce mana and does a pretty good job of that with Urborg. There is very little opportunity cost to running it.

Precursor Golem is... I'm not sure. Good with Tainted Strike but I haven't drawn it but once or twice. Hexmage is the shit. Other than the aforementioned combo with Dark Depths, she kills Planeswalkers that need to die right now i.e. Tezzeret.

Imp's Mischief is OK. I don't see a lot of Time Warps in my playgroup so it's not as good as I'd want it to be. Tainted Strike can let Nirkana Revenant one-shot people out of nowhere or just give one of your opponents creatures infect to reduce your clock a turn.

I run Army of the Damned because it's sweet. Also, Zombies. It's a great attrition card and its awesome to ramp out on 3rd turn. Also, Zombies!

@Kuma: Looks like you got them all. The only thing I can think of to tutor for Coffers that isn't Black is Expedition Map and you're already playing that. It's cool. I have this thing for Muddle the Mixture. We're pretty much super happy together.

This is definitely my favorite EDH deck because it is flavorful and powerful. It FEELS like a Black deck and it's very good too. Skeleton Dragons? Fuck yes.

Necropotence: When I was first making the deck I used your list as a blueprint for my own and your concerns regarding Necro made sense to me. I've never been Slavered with Necro out but damn if it doesn't make me a target, which sucks early on if I'm mana light. I'd probably rather have 2 Phyrexian Arenas instead mostly because most people don't understand how very, very good a turn 3 Arena is. Everyone knows how good Necro is and will target me pretty hard. All it is is just a better Arena with more card text. I'm not doing anything degenerate with it, relatively speaking. However, Necro is just too strong to not be played. These are minor complaints and this is the fucking Skull. I think you should try it out (again).

I think that's most everything.

Davran
03-14-2012, 09:35 AM
@Amon:

Vampire Hexmage has always been one of those cards that I'm hesitant to play with, so it's good to hear that you're having good results with it. Have you also considered Hex Parasite? While Tezzeret does need to die, the Parasite allows you to deal with all kinds of token-based permanents while sticking around himself.

Precursor Golem is an interesting choice, especially given that you really only have one combat trick to use with it. Does it end up as a mana efficient chump blocker more often than a lethal infect creature?

Have you ever used Tainted Strike to mess with someone else's combat, or do you find that you save it to alpha strike with one of your own guys?

You mentioned rarely redirecting a Time Warp effect with Imp's Mischief - have you ever considered Temporal Extortion? Extortion effects are always risky, but shaving 20 points off of someone's life total for 4 mana can't be all that bad. Besides, this is a black deck...so high risk high reward is very on theme.

Amon Amarth
03-14-2012, 04:18 PM
I try not to get too cute with the deck and I'm always playing with how much of a control deck I want to be and how much a combo deck I want to be. Hexmage is mainly in here for the Dark Depths combo the other interactions are secondary but still pretty important- it would suck to get Nicol Bolas-d into the ground. I REALLY like Hex Parasite and I run it in my Sharuum deck for PW control. Here, it's too slow to activate DD.

Precursor Golem is definitely more often a chump blocker. I've only naturally draw it with Tainted Strike... once, I think. You never want to tutor for either card except in very odd situations. He's OK. 5 mana for 9 power with next to no drawback is pretty good. I would like to test him a bit more but he is very cuttable. I recently took out Mutilate and All is Dust. Either of those might want to find their way back in.

It's about 50/50 using TS on my own guys or my opponents. If a 6 power dude is hitting one of my opponents then I can take out 1 person with a naked Skithiryx on my turn.

Temporal Extortion isn't very good. For four mana all you get is a Fireball for 20-ish. It's cool but not something that this deck is looking for.

Kuma
04-24-2012, 08:21 PM
Avacyn Restored changes:

- Sundering Titan

+ Griselbrand

I can't remember the last time Sundering Titan did anything for me. Unless someone can suggest a better cut, he's gone. Griselbrand is an insane, ridiculous card that should be in almost every black EDH deck.

Amon Amarth
04-25-2012, 02:40 PM
Have you tested him yet? It seems like unless you land him really early the table just gangs up and curbstomps you. It also makes Bribery insane. Untapping with GB and winning is pretty good though.

Also, I have no clue as what to cut.

Kuma
04-25-2012, 06:08 PM
Have you tested him yet? It seems like unless you land him really early the table just gangs up and curbstomps you. It also makes Bribery insane. Untapping with GB and winning is pretty good though.

Also, I have no clue as what to cut.

I've tested Griselbrand in other decks, but I can't say I've been ganged up on just for having him in my deck. It certainly makes Bribery insane against me, but I'm running many more ways to get him out of my deck than my opponents are running Briberies. If it ends up being a problem, I'll cut him, but I think there's a lot of upside here.

I guess if I'm going to run Griselbrand, there isn't a compelling reason not to run Necropotence. I'll try to fit it back in.

Amon Amarth
04-25-2012, 11:50 PM
I haven't played with him yet but it seems like Bargain would make all sorts of bells and whistles go off in peoples heads. Well, I guess it's obviously dependent on board state... so I'm just theorycrating. I'm being cautiously optimistic of Griselbrand because I don't want to get caught up in the hype. That being said I'm sure I'll try him, probably cutting Precursor Golem or something. I've been happy with Titan and I have weaker cards that could get cut. I've also (finally!) acquired Seal/Grim so I'll update the few changes I made tonight-ish.

Kuma
07-03-2012, 02:02 PM
M13 changes:

- Griselbrand
- Beacon of Unrest

+ Diabolic Revelation
+ Liliana of the Dark Realms

Griselbrand was Griselbanned. Beacon of Unrest hadn't done anything for me as long as I could remember.

Diabolic Revelation should be amazing with all the Cabal Coffers mana we generate. If I were designing a planeswalker for this deck, it would look a lot like Liliana of the Dark Realms. She finds us our ever important Snow-Covered Swamps while adding loyalty, kills a creature or turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a one hit kill with her -3, and her ultimate gives us a fuckton of mana. Consider my "no planeswalkers" rule officially broken.

Amon Amarth
07-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Lili 3.0 is about as good a card as it gets for this deck. The fact that it can Lake of the Dead your lands or make Skithiryx enormous, or axe a dude is gravy.

I wasn't too hot on Diabolical Revelations but the more I thought about it the more I've come around. If you untap after you cast it, you win. Or on the spot if you've got enough/infinite mana. Insane.

Kuma
09-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Major Changes:

- Night's Whisper
- Sign in Blood
- Promise of Power
- Mind's Eye

While I'm not convinced that cutting Promise of Power and Mind's Eye is correct, Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood needed to go. The usual line of play with those cards was Snow-Covered Swamp, Snow-Covered Swamp, Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood, discard at end of turn. They're better late game topdecks, but my EDH group is pretty fast. I didn't need to be running sorcery-speed Catalog in this deck.

- Wayfarer's Bauble
- Solemn Simulacrum

These cards weren't providing enough acceleration. Running these over mana rocks was a big reason why this deck was a turn too slow for my playgroup.

- Nihil Spellbomb
- Withered Wretch

I'm pretty sure Nihil Spellbomb will work its way back in, but Withered Wretch was always a pretty weak answer to graveyards.

- Crucible of Worlds

My Cabal Coffers hadn't been getting destroyed as much recently, making Crucible of Worlds unnecessary.

- Dimir Machinations
- Dimir House Guard
- Insidious Dreams

Everyone in this thread knows my love of tutors and the Transmute mechanic, but these were easily the three weakest tutors in the deck. I didn't like revealing the card I tutored for to my opponents, and I didn't like paying :1::b::b: to tutor for a limited subset of my deck. Insidious Dreams was slow, major card disadvantage, and awful if it was countered. It also lost a lot of power with the draw spells getting cut.

- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
- Mindslaver
- Fleshbag Marauder
- Scroll Rack
- Steel Hellkite

These cards were weak. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief was a huge mana sink. Steel Hellkite was too slow and unreliable. I don't think I ever blew up a permanent with it. The last time I used Mindslaver on someone was a year ago. Fleshbag Marauder was an overcosted Innocent Blood, and I never lived the dream recurring it with Sheoldred, Whispering One. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed was a better target anyway. Scroll Rack was nearly impossible to use correctly and redundant in a deck with this many tutors.

+ Jet Medallion
+ Worn Powerstone
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Thran Dynamo
+ Magus of the Coffers
+ Gilded Lotus

This is a much better acceleration package. Sword of Feast and Famine, not only doubles your mana, it turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a two-turn clock. I'm not 100% sold on Magus of the Coffers yet, but I've been loving the rest of them.

+ Sigil of Distinction

I decided to give this card another try. I wanted to be able to go Skithiryx aggro if I needed too, and with the addition of colorless mana rocks I thought it might be better than last time. Not 100% sold here either.

+ Royal Assassin
+ Visara the Dreadful

I wanted to be able to better control the board without having to wipe it clean. I haven't got either of these out yet, but they should give me more options for dealing with creatures.

+ Exquisite Blood
+ Sanguine Bond

I felt like the deck needed another combo kill, and this seemed like the logical choice. Exquisite Blood is useful on its own, as we often end up paying a lot of life over the course of the game. I could see it being a little awkward to damage an opponent once the combo is set up, so not 100% sold here either, but I like the idea.

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.

+ No Mercy

I thought this was worth another try. In the only game I got it out it saved me about 20 damage and a hit from Pathrazer of Ulamog

+ Karn Liberated
+ Sorin Markov

I'm breaking the no-planeswalker rule again. With the extra removal, I'm going to see if Karn Liberated is worth it again. Sorin Markov protects himself, and his other two abilities are very useful in EDH.

+ Sadistic Sacrament

This card is very strong against combo decks as you can remove all their combo pieces.

Opening post updated.

Davran
09-07-2012, 03:36 PM
Major Changes:

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.



What about Dregs of Sorrow? I realize it can be a little spendy as a wrath effect, but it also acts as some pretty serious card advantage with a mana doubler online.

Kuma
09-07-2012, 03:55 PM
What about Dregs of Sorrow? I realize it can be a little spendy as a wrath effect, but it also acts as some pretty serious card advantage with a mana doubler online.

I forgot about Dregs of Sorrow. I'll probably put it in if I decide I don't like some of the new cards.

Amon Amarth
09-08-2012, 05:02 AM
Major Changes:

- Night's Whisper
- Sign in Blood
- Promise of Power
- Mind's Eye

While I'm not convinced that cutting Promise of Power and Mind's Eye is correct, Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood needed to go. The usual line of play with those cards was Snow-Covered Swamp, Snow-Covered Swamp, Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood, discard at end of turn. They're better late game topdecks, but my EDH group is pretty fast. I didn't need to be running sorcery-speed Catalog in this deck.

- Wayfarer's Bauble
- Solemn Simulacrum

These cards weren't providing enough acceleration. Running these over mana rocks was a big reason why this deck was a turn too slow for my playgroup.

- Nihil Spellbomb
- Withered Wretch

I'm pretty sure Nihil Spellbomb will work its way back in, but Withered Wretch was always a pretty weak answer to graveyards.

- Crucible of Worlds

My Cabal Coffers hadn't been getting destroyed as much recently, making Crucible of Worlds unnecessary.

- Dimir Machinations
- Dimir House Guard
- Insidious Dreams

Everyone in this thread knows my love of tutors and the Transmute mechanic, but these were easily the three weakest tutors in the deck. I didn't like revealing the card I tutored for to my opponents, and I didn't like paying :1::b::b: to tutor for a limited subset of my deck. Insidious Dreams was slow, major card disadvantage, and awful if it was countered. It also lost a lot of power with the draw spells getting cut.

- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
- Mindslaver
- Fleshbag Marauder
- Scroll Rack
- Steel Hellkite

These cards were weak. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief was a huge mana sink. Steel Hellkite was too slow and unreliable. I don't think I ever blew up a permanent with it. The last time I used Mindslaver on someone was a year ago. Fleshbag Marauder was an overcosted Innocent Blood, and I never lived the dream recurring it with Sheoldred, Whispering One. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed was a better target anyway. Scroll Rack was nearly impossible to use correctly and redundant in a deck with this many tutors.

+ Jet Medallion
+ Worn Powerstone
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Thran Dynamo
+ Magus of the Coffers
+ Gilded Lotus

This is a much better acceleration package. Sword of Feast and Famine, not only doubles your mana, it turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a two-turn clock. I'm not 100% sold on Magus of the Coffers yet, but I've been loving the rest of them.

+ Sigil of Distinction

I decided to give this card another try. I wanted to be able to go Skithiryx aggro if I needed too, and with the addition of colorless mana rocks I thought it might be better than last time. Not 100% sold here either.

+ Royal Assassin
+ Visara the Dreadful

I wanted to be able to better control the board without having to wipe it clean. I haven't got either of these out yet, but they should give me more options for dealing with creatures.

+ Exquisite Blood
+ Sanguine Bond

I felt like the deck needed another combo kill, and this seemed like the logical choice. Exquisite Blood is useful on its own, as we often end up paying a lot of life over the course of the game. I could see it being a little awkward to damage an opponent once the combo is set up, so not 100% sold here either, but I like the idea.

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.

+ No Mercy

I thought this was worth another try. In the only game I got it out it saved me about 20 damage and a hit from Pathrazer of Ulamog

+ Karn Liberated
+ Sorin Markov

I'm breaking the no-planeswalker rule again. With the extra removal, I'm going to see if Karn Liberated is worth it again. Sorin Markov protects himself, and his other two abilities are very useful in EDH.

+ Sadistic Sacrament

This card is very strong against combo decks as you can remove all their combo pieces.

Opening post updated.

Take that staples! I really like the idea of cutting lots of these cards. I will definitely have to reevaluate a lot of the cards I'm running.

I don't think it's correct to cut Promise of Power. It's so good. I've always been happy to see it.

I feel the same way about Magus. It's too fragile and I rarely untapped with it. I'm never going to put it in again.

I'd rather play Sword of Fire and Ice than Sigil. It's just so meh. They're both 2 turn clocks but Sword is good even without loads of mana.

I really want to try out Royal Assassin because it's hilarious. Maybe even Visara too.

Never played with Sanguine Bond but don't really care for the combo. There are enough in the deck, in my opinion.

Decree is fucking crazy awesome. It's so good. Draws me a ton of cards lategame or cycles to kill tokens. I'm going to buy a Hellfire because that card is sweet too.

I never played No Mercy but I might try it out. Seems good with 40 life.

Sorin always does work for me. It kills stuff or puts someone to 10 so I can finish them off with Exsanguinate or random beats. Karn has been growing on me and now I'm thinking about slotting him in just about everything. That guy was hard for me to evaluate but I've really come around on him now.

Sadistic Sacrament is definitely something I've considered recently. It utterly destroys some decks. Kicking it is hilarious.

Still no Necropotence?

Just a few thoughts.

Kuma
09-08-2012, 01:41 PM
I feel the same way about Magus. It's too fragile to do anything. Never put it in again.

I think you're probably right about Magus of the Coffers, but since Cabal Coffers is the best card in the deck and I've never played with Magus, I want to give it a try.


I'd rather play Sword of Fire and Ice than Sigil. It's just so meh. They're both 2 turn clocks but Sword is good even without loads of mana.

If you cast Sigil of Distinction with seven or more mana it's a one turn clock. Granted, I wasn't happy with the card before, but I'm going to play a few games with it and see if I still feel that way. Maybe Strata Scythe would be better.

I've never considered Sword of Fire and Ice. Only thing I don't like is I can pay one more mana to have an equipped Strata Scythe and one-shot people. If I'm one-shotting people, drawing a card or two isn't relevant.


Never played with Sanguine Bond but don't really care for the combo. There are enough in the deck, in my opinion.

Once again, I suspect you're right. After I play some more games we'll see what sticks.


Sadistic Sacrament is definitely something I've considered recently. It utterly destroys some decks. Kicking it is hilarious.

Yeah, if I exile Rings of Brighthearth, Darksteel Forge, and Mindslaver form the Arcum Dagsson's player's deck, he can't win.


Still no Necropotence?

Every deck in my playgroup runs Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. The Arcum player runs Mindslaver, and I can't afford to lose to a single Arcum activation. I haven't had trouble keeping my hand full or having things to do on my turns. Necropotence seems like a liability.


Just a few thoughts.

Much appreciated. :smile:

Amon Amarth
09-08-2012, 06:24 PM
I can certainly see the the logic in not playing Necro in that playgroup. Sigil seems a bit redundant with the Lashwrithe/Nightmare Lash in the deck unless you just want more copies. Your deck is sporting quite a bit of removal; do you ever feel like you have too much at times?

Kuma
09-09-2012, 01:28 PM
Your deck is sporting quite a bit of removal; do you ever feel like you have too much at times?

I haven't yet, but right now my playgroup has Maelstrom Wanderer, Jhoira of the Ghitu, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, and Arcum Dagsson. Maelstrom Wanderer and Karador, Ghost Chieftain both run in the high 30's creatures, Jhoira of the Ghitu runs incredibly powerful creatures, and Arcum Dagsson needs to be killed on sight.

It's entirely possible that there's too much removal for other playgroups, but I haven't felt like I'm overdoing it in mine.

Kuma
09-21-2012, 02:20 PM
Return to Ravnica changes (and some other things too):

+ Underworld Connections
+ Crucible of Worlds
+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Promise of Power
+ Mind's Eye

- Magus of the Coffers
- Exquisite Blood
- Sanguine Bond
- Sigil of Distinction
- Sadistic Sacrament

Underworld Connections is probably better than Phyrexian Arena since we run Deserted Temple and Candelabra of Tawnos. I felt like I cut from the deck a little too heavily, so some of the previous cards made it back in.

Magus of the Coffers was super awkward to have when you want to be blowing up all the creatures every couple of turns. The Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond combo turned out to be awkward and unnecessary. Sigil of Distinction was also extraneous with the other equipment. Yes, I can't one-shot people currently unless I have six or more Swamps, but I wasn't making enough non-Swamp mana soon enough to warrant Sigil of Distinction as a tutor target. I'll keep an eye on it though. Sadistic Sacrament was only strong against the Arcum Dagsson deck in my playgroup, and I run other cards that are also strong there. For now, Sadistic Sacrament is out.

Cards that were considered:

Necropolis Regent
Grave Betrayal

Necropolis Regent makes Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon a two-shot the first time he kills someone and a one-shot every time thereafter. He's also pretty scary on his own and makes every other creature vicious very quickly.

Grave Betrayal seems more cute than practical, but it's a very strong effect and pretty much all I do on most of my turns is kill creatures.

I want to fit these cards in, but I couldn't find room.

Cards on the bubble:

Nevinyrral's Disk
Royal Assassin
Visara the Dreadful
Sorin Markov

Nevinyrral's Disk is too slow to be a reliable board wipe. The only reason I'm thinking about keeping it in is because I want another way to hit non-creatures besides Oblivion Stone. It can also slow opponents way down.

I haven't had a lot of opportunities to play with Royal Assassin and Visara the Dreadful, which makes them difficult to evaluate.

Sorin Markov isn't bad, but I don't win with damage, making his -3 mostly irrelevant. He doesn't usually survive long enough to do his -7. His +2 isn't bad though.

Updated first post.

Kuma
10-27-2012, 03:28 PM
- Graveborn Muse
- Visara the Dreadful
- Sorin Markov
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Sheoldred, Whispering One
- Liliana of the Dark Realms
- Strip Mine

+ Silent Arbiter
+ Duplicant
+ Kagemaro, First to Suffer
+ Seal of Doom
+ The Abyss
+ Vedalken Orrery
+ Snow-Covered Swamp

All Graveborn Muse did for me was draw one card and then die. I never wanted to tutor for Visara the Dreadful. I never ended up casting her either. I did have someone pull her out of my deck with Bribery and whoop my ass. I hate cutting Nevinyrral's Disk, because it deals with artifacts and enchantments, the deck's biggest weakness. However, it's terrible at its job because it enters the battlefield tapped. Whenever I needed to kill an artifact or enchantment, I found myself tutoring for Karn Liberated, All is Dust, or Oblivion Stone instead. I never used Sheoldred, Whispering One for much of anything. The Abyss is a much better card anyway. Even with the added board sweepers, it's too hard to protect planeswalkers. None of Sorin Markov's three abilities did anything the deck needed to do, but cutting Liliana of the Dark Realms really hurts. I couldn't design a planeswalker that fit the deck better, but the problem was she'd get me a Snow-Covered Swamp and then die. That's not worth it for four mana. I hadn't needed to blow up a land in a long time, and if I do I still have Karn Liberated. Everyone who's played the deck knows how important it is for a land to be a Swamp, so I made the switch.

I can't believe I wasn't running The Abyss. It's one of the strongest cards in the deck and it's amazing after a board sweeper. Silent Arbiter is a good way to keep people from attacking me, and it even survives The Abyss. Duplicant is another fantastic blocker that survives The Abyss while giving me another out to Gaddock Teeg and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Seal of Doom is an attempt to keep people from attacking me just because I have no blockers. It hasn't been great so far, but I want to keep trying it. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is a solid blocker and another board sweeper. He's been a bad topdeck when I had one card in my hand, but he was also really solid when I had six. More testing is required. What's better than board sweepers? Instant-speed board sweepers. Vedalken Orrery makes all my board sweepers better while helping to hide what I'm up to until it's too late.

Cards on the bubble:

Royal Assassin
Underworld Connections
No Mercy
Jet Medallion

Updated first post.

Kuma
11-07-2012, 02:14 PM
Trying out some new things:

- Royal Assassin
- No Mercy
- Underworld Connections
- Jet Medallion
- Nihil Spellbomb

+ Animate Dead
+ Life's Finale
+ Brittle Effigy
+ Mimic Vat
+ Portcullis

Royal Assassin was awful. He'd either die before he got to use his ability or he'd be too little too late to stop me from getting stomped. No Mercy was useless far more often than it was useful. It backfired spectacularly such as allowing a Maelstrom Wanderer player to use me as a sacrifice outlet so he could keep cascading, and another player Mindslavering one of my opponents and having him swing 30-ish power of creatures at me to destroy them. People also took advantage of the fact that if you kill a player who has a No Mercy in one attack, none of your creatures are destroyed. There were a couple of games where it was useful, but it wasn't good enough. Underworld Connections was massively inferior to Phyrexian Arena, another card I'm becoming disenchanted with as the speed of my playgroup increases. I almost always had to choose between drawing a card or having enough mana to do what I wanted. Like Extraplanar Lens, it flips a switch in people's brains that makes them want two-for-one you since you gave them an opportunity, no matter if that's the right play or not. Jet Medallion only reduces the cost of like 26 spells in the deck. I think something like Coldsteel Heart would be better and still terrible. I didn't want to cut Nihil Spellbomb, but there are other cards that fulfill the same purpose, and I only needed it for one guy who I don't even play with every week. If anyone has a better idea for a cut, I'd love to hear it.

Since I destroy so many creatures, I decided that I should take advantage of the graveyards full of awesome sauce. Animate Dead does this without costing me life and can be tutored for with Shred Memory. Life's Finale was added as another board sweeper (can you have too many?) that also greatly increases the power of Animate Dead. Most games I lost were due to Gaddock Teeg, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Blightsteel Colossus, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. Brittle Effigy can answer all these cards for good. Mimic Vat seems appropriate with all the creatures currently infesting my playgroup and all the board sweepers I've added. I think it will be really strong. What's better than blowing up all the creatures? Making sure they never get to attack. Portcullis will help keep the creature decks from overwhelming me, and is an incredible card both early on and after a board sweeper.

I'm wondering though, if Beacon of Unrest isn't just better than Animate Dead. I'll keep it in mind as I test Animate Dead

Cards on the bubble:

Sword of Feast and Famine
Pithing Needle
Seal of Doom
Kagemaro, First to Suffer

Updated first post.

EDIT:

- Phyrexian Revoker

+ Torpor Orb

Phyrexian Revoker did great work, but it was hard to keep it out with all the board sweepers I run.

Torpor Orb shuts off a multitude of high value cards in EDH such as Palinchron, Eternal Witness, and the Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Pestermite, etc. combo to name a few of the dozens of staples it works on. The only cards it shuts off in this deck are Duplicant and Portcullis. I can live with that.

Kuma
11-30-2012, 03:24 PM
- Kagemaro, First to Suffer

+ Cursed Totem

Kagemaro, First to Suffer was bad. The only times he was useful was once when I drew so many cards that I had another board sweeper anyway and once when he was my second creature so I could lock everyone out with Portcullis.

Cursed Totem is an amazing card that only locks down Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon's haste and regeneration abilities, and Nirkana Revenant's pump ability in my deck (if I cut Crapemaro). It shuts off numerous high value creatures and generals entirely.

Updated first post.

Kuma
12-13-2012, 06:58 PM
- Sword of Feast and Famine

+ Spreading Plague

With the ever-shrinking number of creatures in the deck, Sword of Feast and Famine was becoming worse and worse. It wasn't worth tutoring for to turn Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a two-hit kill when I can get Nightmare Lash or Lashwrithe to one-hit kill people.

Spreading Plague is an obnoxious card for any creature-based deck to play against. Your opponents do all the work for you using their creatures to kill each other's creatures. With Spreading Plague out, it's difficult for anyone to mount an assault against you, especially post board-sweeper.

Updated first post.

Amon Amarth
12-14-2012, 04:06 AM
Oh man, Spreading Plague is sweet tech! Nice find. Definitely gonna jam one in my list. How well has the deck been working for you?

Kuma
12-14-2012, 11:24 AM
Oh man, Spreading Plague is sweet tech! Nice find. Definitely gonna jam one in my list. How well has the deck been working for you?

Yeah, my one friend was running it in his Thraximundar list. I was playing with another friend's Mayael the Anima deck and getting wrecked by Spreading Plague. At first I was mad, but then I thought, "Why aren't I running this in Skithiryx?"

The deck has been working pretty well since I did the major overhaul and my group moved away from top-tier combo decks towards creature-based decks. I don't dominate my playgroup with it, but it wins its share of games. It's still my favorite EDH deck I've ever built, and it's such a blast to play. I've been letting another friend borrow it recently and he loves playing with it too.

Kuma
01-23-2013, 12:55 PM
Gatecrash changes:

- Bojuka Bog
- Pithing Needle

+ Crypt Ghast
+ Thespian's Stage

Thespian's Stage is going to be amazing in this deck. It's like running another Cabal Coffers that can be a Swamp early on. If someone plays an awesome land like Maze of Ith, I can have one as well. It also acts like a linited Wasteland on legendary lands. What more could I ask for out of a land? Crypt Ghast is another amazing piece of mana ramp that doubles as life gain. I wish it wasn't a creature, but it's still easily worth running.

Almost every time I drew Bojuka Bog I wished it was a Swamp. My meta is really light on graveyard decks right now and I have other graveyard hate if I need it. Pithing Needle was pretty weak ever since the Arcum Dagsson deck was taken apart. It's probably better than Mimic Vat, but I want to test that a little more.

Also, I'm going to try:

- Vedalken Orerry

+ Glacial Chasm

Vedalken Orerry has done zilch for me since I added it. I kind of wanted to test it a little more, but it's the easiest cut for anything new. I can't imagine why I wasn't running Glacial Chasm before. I run Crucible of Worlds, and the life payments aren't that bad. In a pinch, I can tutor for it and possibly survive several more turns. I think it's worth a test at least.

Cards on the bubble:

Mimic Vat

Updated first post.

Kuma
02-25-2013, 08:03 PM
- Mutilate
- Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
- Glacial Chasm
- Animate Dead

+ Black Market
+ Meekstone
+ Ensnaring Bridge
+ No Mercy

I wish I could quit No Mercy. It always seems to backfire spectacularly, yet I keep putting it back in to see if it'll keep damage off me. I'm giving it another try, but it'll probably end up becoming Sculpting Steel or Ward of Bones. I can't believe I never considered Meekstone and Ensnaring Bridge before. Neither plays nice with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, but they also don't play nice with many of my opponents' entire decks. I put Black Market in just to give it a try and I loved it. It usually ate removal or made me at least two to three mana every turn.

Mutilate hadn't been getting it done for a while. It was fine back when I didn't need to kill things bigger than 4/4, but it's too unreliable right now. I never tutored for Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, nor was I ever happy to see it in my hand. The corner cases it got me out of never seemed to come up. Animate Dead was okay sometimes, but most games I didn't find myself needing to animate something. Mimic Vat is much better at taking advantage of all the creatures I kill. I cut Glacial Chasm because Ensnaring Bridge does its job without costing me a land and has the added bonus of keeping Eldrazi and Blightsteel Colossus off me. It might find its way back in if I decide I need more of that effect.

Updated first post.

TsumiBand
02-25-2013, 08:34 PM
I haven't played this deck, but it seems like if it's worth putting in pieces that operate in opposition to your commander, maybe your commander is wrong? Your playgroup is I believe a bit more savage than mine, so maybe there's something I'm missing, or maybe you can count on someone nixing all the artifacts and then you can play to your "third threat" plan, I dunno.

Kuma
02-25-2013, 10:22 PM
I haven't played this deck, but it seems like if it's worth putting in pieces that operate in opposition to your commander, maybe your commander is wrong? Your playgroup is I believe a bit more savage than mine, so maybe there's something I'm missing, or maybe you can count on someone nixing all the artifacts and then you can play to your "third threat" plan, I dunno.

There really aren't better options in mono-black. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is the next best option (obviously I'd replace Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe with Corpse Dance and Profane Command), but he isn't even strong enough to be in the deck and I'm not sure how often I'd take advantage of the options he provides. It's like I said earlier. If I don't want Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in my hand and I never tutor for him, why would I want him as my general?

I maybe win 5% of my games on the back of Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, making the cards that operate in opposition to him only marginally annoying. If I'm going to try to win with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, I don't have to play cards like Ensnaring Bridge. Sometimes, my general is "Wall of Skithiryx" and that's useful too.

Wizards could certainly print a general that's better for this deck than Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, but I don't think they have yet. If you've got any ideas about who should be the general, let me know.

TsumiBand
02-26-2013, 12:15 AM
There really aren't better options in mono-black. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is the next best option (obviously I'd replace Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe with Corpse Dance and Profane Command), but he isn't even strong enough to be in the deck and I'm not sure how often I'd take advantage of the options he provides. It's like I said earlier. If I don't want Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in my hand and I never tutor for him, why would I want him as my general?

I maybe win 5% of my games on the back of Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, making the cards that operate in opposition to him only marginally annoying. If I'm going to try to win with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, I don't have to play cards like Ensnaring Bridge. Sometimes, my general is "Wall of Skithiryx" and that's useful too.

Wizards could certainly print a general that's better for this deck than Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, but I don't think they have yet. If you've got any ideas about who should be the general, let me know.

Oh I dunno. Am I a huge troll if I suggest Maga, Traitor to Mortals? :/ It's the same problem but different anyway. I dunno. Maybe don't listen to me.

Davran
02-26-2013, 08:48 AM
Oh I dunno. Am I a huge troll if I suggest Maga, Traitor to Mortals? :/ It's the same problem but different anyway. I dunno. Maybe don't listen to me.

There's always Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief as an option for the general slot. She plays well in a control style shell, and is repeatable removal. She's not as resilient as Skittles since she can't regenerate, but sometimes I find that people feel less threatened by her. Also, she works quite well with Black Market and the other mana doubling effects.

Kuma
02-26-2013, 06:32 PM
Oh I dunno. Am I a huge troll if I suggest Maga, Traitor to Mortals? :/ It's the same problem but different anyway. I dunno. Maybe don't listen to me.

No man, why would you be a troll? It's a reasonable suggestion. Maga, Traitor to Mortals would give me a good outlet for infinite mana, but mono-black Oona, Queen of the Fae would probably be better at that point. I also haven't had any problems winning with infinite mana since I added Increasing Ambition and Diabolic Revelation to the deck. I use one of my turns to go tutor -> Increasing Ambition -> combo piece, or just pay an extra :1: to get an outlet for the infinite mana with Diabolic Revelation.


There's always Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief as an option for the general slot. She plays well in a control style shell, and is repeatable removal. She's not as resilient as Skittles since she can't regenerate, but sometimes I find that people feel less threatened by her. Also, she works quite well with Black Market and the other mana doubling effects.

Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief lets me kill all creatures forever with infinite mana, and if there's a creature in play I can use her to kill someone with infinite mana, but like Maga, Traitor to Mortals, she doesn't give the deck something it really needs.

I'm going to try using Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed as the general at my weekly EDH group tomorrow. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm also going to try out Lethal Vapors and Necropotence.

Amon Amarth
02-27-2013, 06:04 AM
Xiahou Dun is an alternative to Skithiryx if you wanted to emphasize the control element of the deck although you do become more vulnerable to graveyard hate, YMMV. Realistically, though, he seems like the only black general that offers up anything new or powerful.

Good to see you trying out Necro. It's always been good for me and equally bad for my opponents. Have you tried out the black Myojin? It's a great card to drop into play early and you don't don't mind if it gets Bribery-ed, stolen or even if there is a Torpor Orb in play. Similarly, I also like Army of the Damned. The Flashback really pushes it over the top. It also makes it pretty easy to one-shot someone off the boosts from Gauntlet or Caged Sun. I'm fond of these types of cards: low risk and high reward. I like jamming haymakers that even if they get dealt with you shrug and go about your business.

Another card I've been wanting to test with for awhile is Massacre Wurm. Kills tokens, utility dorks and acts as a weird, pseudo-Planar Void that hoses some infinite combos like anything with Reveillark, for example. It can also straight up kill people late in the game.

Kuma
02-27-2013, 10:46 AM
Have you tried out the black Myojin? It's a great card to drop into play early and you don't don't mind if it gets Bribery-ed, stolen or even if there is a Torpor Orb in play.

I ran it in the deck a while back and it was pretty good. The problem is that Myojin of Night's Reach probably isn't coming down much earlier than turn five or six, which makes it a little slow for my playgroup. I also play against Maelstrom Wanderer and Mayael the Anima on a regular basis, and by the time I can land Myojin of Night's Reach they don't really care if they have a hand or not. There are some situations where I make it to the late game in which he'd be pretty strong, so he might make it back in.


Similarly, I also like Army of the Damned. The Flashback really pushes it over the top. It also makes it pretty easy to one-shot someone off the boosts from Gauntlet or Caged Sun.

I'm a huge fan of Army of the Damned. It'll probably get its shot someday.


I'm fond of these types of cards: low risk and high reward. I like jamming haymakers that even if they get dealt with you shrug and go about your business.

Agreed. I want every card in this deck to be a must answer for someone. That's how you build a strong EDH deck.


Another card I've been wanting to test with for awhile is Massacre Wurm. Kills tokens, utility dorks and acts as a weird, pseudo-Planar Void that hoses some infinite combos like anything with Reveillark, for example. It can also straight up kill people late in the game.

There aren't many tokens and utility dorks in my group now. I just cut Mutilate for that very reason. I don't think Massacre Wurm is a good fit.

Baumeister
02-27-2013, 01:02 PM
Oh man, Hellfire is so cool! Old border + crazy art + a wall of text.

Have you tried Sepulchral Primordial? Any thoughts on Doubling Cube as another mana ramp?

LegacyStudent
02-28-2013, 01:22 PM
If I don't want Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in my hand and I never tutor for him, why would I want him as my general? Xiahou Dun as a general really begins to shine when you get your mana online. You can cast him, sac him to return something (usually a tutor), and instead of putting him in the GY move him back to the command zone. You can use the tutor, recast One-Eye (at an additional cost of 2 each time) and keep recur the tutor again. I used to run a Xiahou deck and if I could survive long enough to get a respectable amount for tapping Cabal Coffers, I could seal up the game and win the following turn. Usually I'd sit on Coffers in hand (to protect from LD) until I was ready to take a stab at the game. Then I'd drop Coffers, tap for a bunch of mana, cast Xiahou and sac him targeting a tutor I'd used in the earlier turns (putting Xiahou in the command zone if I didn't have a reanimate effect in hand), tutoring for Candelabra of Tawnos, casting it and untapping Coffers, generating more mana, casting and saccing Xiahou again, returning the tutor and usually grabbing Infernal Darkness. If that resolved, it was game over as next turn I would be able to tutor up infinite mana and infinitely recur Xiahou.

Kuma
03-01-2013, 11:23 AM
Wednesday, I ran Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed as my general instead of Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon. That decision won me a game and could have saved another. In one game, I made infinite black mana but didn't have a tutor to get the kill. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed let me reuse Grim Tutor for the win. In another game, my buddy was playing the deck, and he could have won if he used Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed to get back Infernal Darkness, but he didn't see the play. I'm not saying I'll make the switch yet, but it's looking like Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon's days are numbered.

Here's what I tried:

- Nightmare Lash
- Lashwrithe
- Exsanguinate
- Cursed Totem

+ Lethal Vapors
+ Necropotence
+ Corpse Dance
+ Profane Command

Necropotence was incredible. I must have been brain damaged to not run that card before. Amon Amarth, you can say, "I told you so." I didn't draw Lethal Vapors all night. Corpse Dance was garbage. I never needed to use Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed more than once, and it isn't worth running a card to save one to three mana if I need to use him more. Cursed Totem went back in pretty fast. I figured with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed as general, Profane Command might be better than Exsanguinate. With infinite black mana, you can kill someone with Profane Command, use Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed to get it back, leaving Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed in your graveyard. Cast Profane Command choosing life loss and return a creature to get Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed back and repeat until everyone is dead. There are pros and cons to the switch.

Pros:

When I don't have infinite mana, I can get some use out of Profane Command as creature kill, etc.

Cons:

No emergency life gain.
It takes much more black mana to kill the table, making it more difficult to win with just Basalt Monolith/Rings of Brighthearth.

I'm leaning towards putting Exsanguinate back in, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.


Oh man, Hellfire is so cool! Old border + crazy art + a wall of text.

I know! Isn't it the most bad-ass looking card?


Have you tried Sepulchral Primordial? Any thoughts on Doubling Cube as another mana ramp?

I just cut Animate Dead from the list for not being useful enough. I feel like Sepulchral Primordial and its five additional mana to cast would be even worse. I've tried out Doubling Cube, but the card is only good when you're ahead. You need to have seven mana in your pool before it does anything, and even then it only adds one mana. I prefer my ramp to work when I'm low on mana, but I've toyed with the idea of putting Doubling Cube back in.

Amon Amarth
03-01-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm pretty sure Exsanguinate is just better but I'd still run both it and Command.

Kuma
03-01-2013, 05:35 PM
I'm pretty sure Exsanguinate is just better but I'd still run both it and Command.

Why would you run both? They're mostly redundant.

Amon Amarth
03-01-2013, 06:32 PM
Command can function as a removal spell albeit a little on the slow and clunky side. If that's not really what you want I'd just stick with Exsanguinate. I've never tested Xiahou but it seems like it wouldn't hurt for a bit of redundancy.

TsumiBand
03-01-2013, 08:12 PM
Why would you run both? They're mostly redundant.

Isn't Exsanguinate each player, where Profane Command is target? That would be one reason to run both.

I mean it seems like it depends on how many countermeasures you think you need to play through. I get that infinite mana leads to potentially infinite recursion with your new Commander, but like let's play devil's advocate and assume he's inaccessible because he's tucked or whatever; you can either tutor for your commander or tutor for your win con. You could get Bogged at a shitty time and lose a lot of potential Xiahou targets. I dunno, Exsanguinate is a one-card combo with infinite mana, that kind of makes it seem strong. I get why Profane Command would be the only spell to run in a perfect world though, since it would not matter if you got blown out.

LegacyStudent
03-12-2013, 08:17 AM
I'm a fan of both Wayfarer's Bauble and Solemn Simulacrum as they are both ways for mono black to accelerate lands into play. Also, Everflowing Chalice might be better than Worn Powerstone since it can scale so well with the absurd amounts of mana that this deck can generate.

Kuma
03-12-2013, 10:57 AM
I'm a fan of both Wayfarer's Bauble and Solemn Simulacrum as they are both ways for mono black to accelerate lands into play.

I've ran both in the past and found them lacking. They don't accelerate you unless you're hitting your land drops every turn. If you're not, it's just a land drop that costs :3: or :4:.


Also, Everflowing Chalice might be better than Worn Powerstone since it can scale so well with the absurd amounts of mana that this deck can generate.

Good point. I'm not sure how much I'd actually cast Everflowing Chalice for, but it does seem like it might be better than Worn Powerstone.

LegacyStudent
03-14-2013, 08:09 AM
I've ran both in the past and found them lacking. They don't accelerate you unless you're hitting your land drops every turn.
Right. Isn't the goal to be making land drops every turn for at least the first 6 turns or so? I suppose it depends on the other decks in your playgroup. I always found that I never had much action in the early phase of the game with mono-B anyway, other than holding removal for early voltron kills all I did was ensure that I made a land drop every turn. Once you hit a critical amount of mana it becomes very difficult for other decks to stop you from locking everyone out of the game.

Kuma
03-19-2013, 02:24 PM
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=212249&type=card

RIP


October 1, 2010 - March 19, 2013

Ah, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon I had some good times with you. We poisoned a lot of players together and won many a game. But lately I'd been using you as a kill condition less and less. The quickest I could one-shot someone with you was turn six, and that's just too slow. In the few games I've played since I gave you up, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed has proven to be more useful, whether it's recurring a key tutor or getting back something like Infernal Darkness. He's my general now, and I hope your French, foil self and I have lots of fun killing in one shot in my The Mimeoplasm deck. See you then, buddy.

In case it wasn't clear, the deck isn't going away. I've just decided to switch the general to Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.

- Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
- Nightmare Lash
- Lashwrithe

+ Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
+ Necropotence
+ Lethal Vapors

Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe aren't worth running without Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon. Like I said before, I was an idiot for not running Necropotence. The card is just too powerful. I'm not 100% on Lethal Vapors, as the early returns haven't been promising. Still, I have to try a card that keeps my opponents from playing creatures even if it can be destroyed at will.

Updated first post.

TsumiBand
03-19-2013, 03:47 PM
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=212249&type=card

RIP


October 1, 2010 - March 19, 2103

I'll be sure to set my watch. There's nothing worse than watching a loved one die. Especially if it takes 90 years.

Kuma
03-19-2013, 03:49 PM
I'll be sure to set my watch. There's nothing worse than watching a loved one die. Especially if it takes 90 years.

:laugh:

Wow, what a typo.

Offler
03-27-2013, 06:04 AM
The new general is the most evil thing I have ever seen in this format...

Even Empress Galina does not seem as evil to me :D

Kuma
04-24-2013, 10:41 AM
Dragon's Maze Changes:

It's kind of a misnomer because there are only eleven new cards in Dragon's Maze that are legal in the deck and they're all terrible.

- Lethal Vapors
- Mind's Eye
- Life's Finale
- No Mercy
- Phyrexian Arena

+ Arena of the Ancients
+ Everflowing Chalice
+ Magus of the Coffers
+ Sculpting Steel
+ Staff of Domination

Lethal Vapors was a little too slow to be effective. Someone always skipped their turn, and often it was a player on their way out of the game who did it to help the others. Mind's Eye was too mana intensive and slow. Phyrexian Arena didn't do enough especially in a deck with Necropotence and this many tutors. No Mercy once again proved its uselessness. I wish I could quit you! Life's Finale was the worst board sweeper in the deck. I don't think there will be a problem at seven sweepers instead of eight.

Arena of the Ancients should prove excellent now that I don't have to worry about untapping my Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon. Everflowing Chalice seems like a perfect addition with all the mana the deck can generate. Sculpting Steel is too strong not to run when everyone is playing Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and Gilded Lotus. I can't believe I wasn't running it. Now that Staff of Domination is unbanned it's an easy choice for addition. This makes Magus of the Coffers worth running again as it makes infinite black mana with Staff of Domination which then allows you to draw your deck with the staff.

Cards on the bubble:

Mimic Vat
Silent Arbiter
Promise of Power

Updated first post.

Amon Amarth
04-24-2013, 10:26 PM
I'd rather run Arena than Arbiter because it's much better in the early game. Arbiter dies almost as an afterthought of the game being played. Arena is a bit more resilient and a very powerful turn 3 play.

EDIT: Why are you not running Ancient Tomb?

Kuma
04-28-2013, 11:30 AM
I'd rather run Arena than Arbiter because it's much better in the early game. Arbiter dies almost as an afterthought of the game being played. Arena is a bit more resilient and a very powerful turn 3 play.

The problem with Phyrexian Arena is that it takes a long time to provide significant advantage. For every game where it drew me like seven cards, there are two where it drew me three or less. The way I've been playing the deck recently involves tutoring for Necropotence and drawing a ton of cards, making Phyrexian Arena unnecessary. With Necropotence in the deck, Phyrexian Arena loses a lot of its usefulness. It was a very difficult cut, so there's a good chance it finds its way back in. I'll also grant you that Silent Arbiter is probably the worst card still in the deck, but in the absence of a board sweeper, it's good at buying time which is what this deck needs right now. My playgroup is pretty fast and this deck takes a long time to set up.


EDIT: Why are you not running Ancient Tomb?

Since I almost always tutor for Cabal Coffers right away, Ancient Tomb doesn't offer enough advantages over a Snow-Covered Swamp. With Cabal Coffers out, all Snow-Covered Swamps effectively tap for two black mana: one for themselves and they make Cabal Coffers tap for an additional mana. I don't think Ancient Tomb's early mana advantages make up for the damage and the colorless mana it produces, especially when two of my combos rely on Cabal Coffers/Magus of the Coffers tapping for six and seven mana respectively. Yes, I run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but I'd rather not rely on that card. It sucks when you have a Gauntlet of Power or someone steals/copies your Nirkana Revenant or Crypt Ghast and they can tap their basic lands for :2:.

Amon Amarth
04-28-2013, 07:33 PM
The problem with Phyrexian Arena is that it takes a long time to provide significant advantage. For every game where it drew me like seven cards, there are two where it drew me three or less. The way I've been playing the deck recently involves tutoring for Necropotence and drawing a ton of cards, making Phyrexian Arena unnecessary. With Necropotence in the deck, Phyrexian Arena loses a lot of its usefulness. It was a very difficult cut, so there's a good chance it finds its way back in. I'll also grant you that Silent Arbiter is probably the worst card still in the deck, but in the absence of a board sweeper, it's good at buying time which is what this deck needs right now. My playgroup is pretty fast and this deck takes a long time to set up.

Since I almost always tutor for Cabal Coffers right away, Ancient Tomb doesn't offer enough advantages over a Snow-Covered Swamp. With Cabal Coffers out, all Snow-Covered Swamps effectively tap for two black mana: one for themselves and they make Cabal Coffers tap for an additional mana. I don't think Ancient Tomb's early mana advantages make up for the damage and the colorless mana it produces, especially when two of my combos rely on Cabal Coffers/Magus of the Coffers tapping for six and five mana respectively. Yes, I run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but I'd rather not rely on that card. It sucks when you have a Gauntlet of Power or someone steals/copies your Nirkana Revenant or Crypt Ghast and they can tap their basic lands for :2:.

The problem there is that when you tutor there really aren't a lot of different cards you want to get, typically. Early game is Necro, late game you want Revelation. Just because Necro does everything doesn't mean you don't need additional sources of card advantage and Arena is the next best thing.

That scenario sounds pretty corner case-y. Regardless, Ancient Tomb is a lot better than Petrified Field, in my experience.

Jivanmukta
04-28-2013, 07:46 PM
The problem there is that when you tutor there really aren't a lot of different cards you want to get, typically. Early game is Necro, late game you want Revelation. Just because Necro does everything doesn't mean you don't need additional sources of card advantage and Arena is the next best thing.

That scenario sounds pretty corner case-y. Regardless, Ancient Tomb is a lot better than Petrified Field, in my experience.

I feel if he wanted another draw spell Necrologia would be the next best.

Amon Amarth
04-28-2013, 09:40 PM
I completely forgot about that card; Necrologia is pretty sweet. I prefer Arena's permanence to the one shot effect of Necrologia but that's mostly a difference in philosophy/playstyle, etc.

Kuma
04-29-2013, 10:11 AM
That scenario sounds pretty corner case-y. Regardless, Ancient Tomb is a lot better than Petrified Field, in my experience.

I've been going back and forth on replacing Petrified Field with a Snow-Covered Swamp. Since my buddy is building Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I probably have to keep Petrified Field for now. In many cases, Ancient Tomb is better than Petrified Field, but I think Snow-Covered Swamp is better still. If people rarely destroy your Cabal Coffers, I wouldn't run Petrified Field since Crucible of Worlds and Yawgmoth's Will should be plenty of ways to get it back.


I feel if he wanted another draw spell Necrologia would be the next best.

Good point. If I'm running Necropotence, there isn't much reason not to run Necrologia. I'll have to work it back in.

xbento
05-01-2013, 12:38 AM
When casting Necologia or using Necropotence do you just draw until you hit a combo and discard (exile with Necro out) the rest? I feel like Reliquary Tower or something similar is a necessity so you don't discard/exile things you may need if the combo plan doesn't work out.

Kuma
05-01-2013, 12:55 PM
When casting Necologia or using Necropotence do you just draw until you hit a combo and discard (exile with Necro out) the rest? I feel like Reliquary Tower or something similar is a necessity so you don't discard/exile things you may need if the combo plan doesn't work out.

I can't tell if you understand how Necrologia and Necropotence work. You don't get to pay life, see what you get, and decide whether of not to pay more life before you have to discard.

I don't use Necropotence to draw a couple of cards at a time to keep up. I use it to win on the turn after I activate it. I usually draw 15-25 cards with Necrologia or Necropotence. That almost always gives me a combo or the means to get it on my next turn. I've usually been able to keep seven cards that will let me attempt to win the game making Reliquary Tower unnecessary. There's a lot of garbage when you draw that many cards and I don't want to run a non-Snow-Covered Swamp land to let me keep redundant cards in my hand. When you pay that much life, you're not long for the game if your combo plan backfires, making those extra cards pointless because you won't have time to play them.

Kuma
05-13-2013, 07:56 PM
- Portcullis
- Petrified Field

+ Necrologia
+ Snow-Covered Swamp

Portcullis rarely did what it was supposed to. I usually cast it on turn four and that was usually too late to stop the onslaught of creatures. It let the Maelstrom Wanderer player recast his general over and over, and it let people get double triggers out of Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Sylvan Primordial, etc. Once in a while it worked like magic, but it was crap most of the time. The Azusa, Lost But Seeking deck only lasted one week, so I don't think I need Petrified Field anymore. I always tutored for Crucible of Worlds or Yawgmoth's Will if I needed Cabal Coffers out of my graveyard anyway.

I want to fit Phyrexian Arena back in the deck, but I don't know what to cut. I thought about Mimic Vat, but that card has worked wonders recently. There's a good chance it will be Silent Arbiter, but I'm getting low on cards that keep damage off me. I'm starting to wonder if it's time to lose Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void as I rarely kill anyone with that combo anymore and I just added another combo in Magus of the Coffers/Staff of Domination.

Updated first post.

Amon Amarth
05-13-2013, 08:24 PM
You should tell me how well the increased Swamp count is working out for you. I'm always on the cusp of axing another utility land for one or maybe even two more.

I don't think I'd cut the Helm/Line combo. I don't use it much either but it can make games pretty easy if you naturally draw into an early Leyline you can start picking off players, not to mention how powerful it is as a piece GY hate. The combo is more difficult to disrupt than coffers/staff but it also doesn't kill everyone instantly, either. I could see cutting the Helm since it's basically worthless outside the combo but I love me some Black Leyline action.

Kuma
05-14-2013, 07:40 AM
You should tell me how well the increased Swamp count is working out for you. I'm always on the cusp of axing another utility land for one or maybe even two more.

I've never regretted cutting a utility land for a Snow-Covered Swamp. Looking through the thread, I've never cut a Snow-Covered Swamp for anything. It's so crucial to have lots of Snow-Covered Swamps to power up Cabal Coffers, Caged Sun, etc. and to use your Cabal Coffers/Rings of Brighthearth/Deserted Temple and Magus of the Coffers/Staff of Domination combos. Right now, the only land I'm running that isn't a Snow-Covered Swamp, can't become one, or isn't a combo piece is Buried Ruin, which should give you an idea of how important Snow-Covered Swamps are to the deck.


I don't think I'd cut the Helm/Line combo. I don't use it much either but it can make games pretty easy if you naturally draw into an early Leyline you can start picking off players, not to mention how powerful it is as a piece GY hate. The combo is more difficult to disrupt than coffers/staff but it also doesn't kill everyone instantly, either. I could see cutting the Helm since it's basically worthless outside the combo but I love me some Black Leyline action.

The problem with pre-gaming a Leyline of the Void is that as soon as I tutor, everyone gangs up on me. I've almost always had the combo disrupted when I started with Leyline of the Void in play. I wouldn't say Helm of Obedience is worthless outside of the combo, but it's a pretty weak card. I'm going to keep the combo for now, but it's definitely on the bubble.

Kuma
11-16-2013, 06:31 PM
Big Update:

- Seal of Doom
- Arena of the Ancients
- Meekstone
- Hellfire
- Brittle Effigy
- Cursed Totem
- Torpor Orb
- Duplicant
- Necrologia

+ Burnished Hart
+ Ward of Bones
+ Grim Monolith
+ No Mercy (I know, right?...)
+ Infest
+ Withering Wisps
+ Dread
+ Crawlspace
+ Toxic Deluge

A recent metagame shift towards decks full of smaller attackers and some key realizations about what this deck is and isn't have led me to make some pretty big changes.

This deck needs to be left alone to win the game.

Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed doesn't play through hate well. It also really hates being the target of attacks because it uses life as a resource. Often it's the only deck without blockers which, combined with the previous point, leads people to throw a lot of damage at it. This usually leads to having to tutor for a board sweeper instead of a combo piece, which is ultimately futile. This is a turn six deck, and that's goldfishing. We're only going to win if people cut us some slack. Cards like Cursed Totem, Arena of the Ancients and Torpor Orb scream, "Hey! you can't do something fundamental to your deck until you deal with me!" Meekstone sort of falls in this category as well, although it usually makes you harder to kill at the same time. It's removal from the deck is more of a metagame call for me right now.

If your opponents don't have a removal spell for these cards, they'll try to kill you through attacks, which is the last thing we want to happen for reasons already stated.

Spot removal is incredibly weak when you can run sweepers.

The only reasons to run spot removal over a board sweeper are Gaddock Teeg and Iona, Shield of Emeria. If one of those hits the table, especially Iona, you're pretty much screwed. The list still has answers to both, but I feel that running too many answers just leads to decreased card quality in the games where you're not facing down Teeg and Iona. If someone is playing Gaddock Teeg as a general in your group, you will never win a game with this deck. Likewise, if someone in your group is always using Survival of the Fittest + Loyal Retainers + Iona, Shield of Emeria, you should probably play another deck. It was hubris to think that I could run enough answers to these cards to have game against those kind of decks. Instead, I'm going to play to my strengths.

Hellfire was cut for being too expensive and dealing me too much damage in my metagame. Necrologia is a temporary cut so I can try out some of these other cards. It'll likely work its way back in as I figure out which new cards aren't worth it. Also, with all the early creatures running around, Necrologia and Necropotence get a lot worse.

Toxic Deluge is a fantastic card that would have made the cut even if my group didn't turn into aggro decks. Withering Wisps and Infest provide some much needed pest control. Crawlspace, No Mercy and Dread keep attackers off me while I set up. Grim Monolith and Burnished Hart add some much needed ramp to the deck to speed things up. Ward of Bones might be one of those cards that make people want to kill you, but I've wanted to try it for a long time and it does keep the number of creatures down.

Updated first post.