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RexFTW
05-02-2011, 04:24 PM
Team Italia
A Legacy Magic deck, by Gerard Fabiano
4th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Boston, Massachusetts, United States on 2011-04-24

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ranger of Eos
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Lands
3 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Pyroblast
4 Swords to Plowshares

Primer coming soon!

RexFTW
05-02-2011, 04:27 PM
reserved

CorpT
05-02-2011, 05:55 PM
This deck is very solid. I played it the last week at the LGS and managed to take down a GPT with it. If you need help with the Primer, let me know. We changed a few things, but not a lot.

claudio.r
05-02-2011, 06:04 PM
I'm actually happy to see a comeback to this kind of highly disruptive decks with small guys that do a lot of work. Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and even Trinket Mage are making a comeback. This makes me happy, i was a little bit tired of seeing progenitus and emrakul everywhere.

Back to the roots!

ThoSha
05-02-2011, 06:41 PM
(Turn 1) Blood Moon wrecks you.

GGoober
05-02-2011, 06:49 PM
lol, to be fair, Turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Blood Moon wrecks Dstompy :P The list can always incorporate 1 basic plains in Moon metagames, and continue to bash face with Mystic + Equipment.

I really like the list.

Fatal
05-02-2011, 06:50 PM
No basics = random lose to lands/recurring wastelands/blood moon effects - don't forgot u don't have counters to avoid it on draw

ThoSha
05-02-2011, 06:55 PM
lol, to be fair, Turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Blood Moon wrecks Dstompy :P The list can always incorporate 1 basic plains in Moon metagames, and continue to bash face with Mystic + Equipment.

I really like the list.

Not necesseraly Dragon Stompy, but just any deck playing or boarding Blood Moon can wreck it, and there is no solution at all.
Losing to a burn deck in a Grand Prix must suck really hard at this budget.

Admiral_Arzar
05-02-2011, 06:58 PM
Let's do some math here.

Chances of being screwed by Blood Moon <<< Chances of being screwed by not having right colors of mana against decks people actually play.

Basics aren't necessary.

CorpT
05-02-2011, 09:09 PM
Last time I played against a Blood Moon was.... over a year at least. Wastelands can be dealt with. Especially in a deck that runs a relatively high count of lands. I'll take my chances against running into a Blood Moon. In all likelihood, they were knocked out by a real deck in earlier rounds.

One of the few changes I made to the deck was to add Bitterblossom. In an equipment deck that aims to disrupt... it was extremely good. Especially against the counter/thopter decks that run Humility and Moat.

ForlornEgoist
05-03-2011, 01:11 AM
In a deck like this color fixing is absolutely necessary. The arguments for running that singleton basic are rather moot in comparision to A) The dependancy this deck has on color fixing, B) The disruption this deck runs to disable viable nonbasic threats, and C) decks centering on nonbasic hate rarely show up to big events and even if they do are often dropped within several rounds. Let's be realistic, DS is hardly the most competitive deck and many people (including myself as a DS player) realize this. As of right now DS is too meta-dependant to be a competitive deck, so the odds of facing it are irrelevant. Lands gets absolutely wrecked in the current meta, and lets face it that Stax hasn't put out good results since Planar Chaos came out. The only two decks that ever even bother to run a MD/SB Moon effect beyond the aforementioned are S&T and Enchantress, of which Moon effects aren't established cards but rather personal choices for either deck.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Wasteland. So...? This deck can reasonably function and recover off of just 2 mana. To effectively color fix and avoid Waste you'd need at least 3 basics which will affect your gameplay. I think in this case I'd rather randomly get wrecked by that deck you're realistically never going to see rather than decrease the overall strength of the deck just to be safe.

ForlornEgoist

C Rayz Walz
05-03-2011, 11:09 AM
Merfok sometimes run back to basic in the board so as far as tier one decks that is all you really need to worry about. I guess goblins can be annoying with wasteland and ports but I think adding in 3 basic to this deck list is not worth it to be honest. This isn't personally my style of deck but I do think it is a very strong deck.

Tim the Enchanter
05-03-2011, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure that one T8 appearance makes a deck established.

DownSyndromeKarl
05-03-2011, 11:40 AM
I'm not sure that one T8 appearance makes a deck established.

+1

egosum
05-03-2011, 11:50 AM
No offense but this seems just the SCG effect.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Finn
05-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Ya gotta love the singleton Divining Top with no means to fetch it. I already said it, but this deck is a really cool idea in colors nobody else has been successful in. But it has some gaping holes. Perhaps we can patch them.

The land situation is tenuous, but this is hardly the only deck straddling that fence. Back to Basics from Merfolk is unlikely to be a problem with so many 1 CC spells. On that note, expect much suck from Misstep in the near future.

The lack of real threats is a problem. Without equipment in play, this deck just piddles around. Why bother Vindicating a blocker when the only attacker you have is a Dark Confidant or a Grim Lavamancer?

Too few creatures in general is an issue. There are going to be plenty of games when you land a Mystic and don't see another creature for several turns. If the opponent zaps the Mystic, you have a problem.

I say add Jotun Grunt for starters in place of some of the random stuff to take care of both of these issues at once.

CorpT
05-03-2011, 12:58 PM
Bitterblossom solves the lack-of-creatures problem. It is incredibly powerful because it continuously puts out creatures to use equipment with.

The Land situation is not the problem people think it is.

Adding Jotun Grunt doesn't solve the creature problem and has significant anti-synergy with Grim Lavamancer. It is a situational creature that doesn't get there when you need it.

Tim the Enchanter
05-03-2011, 01:38 PM
I do think Bitterblossom would be pretty good here.


Ya gotta love the singleton Divining Top with no means to fetch it. I already said it, but this deck is a really cool idea in colors nobody else has been successful in. But it has some gaping holes. Perhaps we can patch them.

So... you're saying that this should be in the developing section? I agree. I know of at least 3 people that played this in Charlotte and all of them scrubbed out by the end of round four.

Hanni
05-03-2011, 11:11 PM
I really like the idea behind this deck, but I see some things that I would change.

First of all, I absolutely love the fish-y creature base (not Merfolk fish, but the oldschool fish). I have quite a bit of experience with these style decks from years past, and really enjoy the playstyle.

I would quickly cut the 3 Figure of Destiny and 1 Ranger of Eos for 4 Mother of Runes. The deck doesn't need a 1 drop that can eventually become a 4/4 or larger; it has equipment for that. What the deck needs, is additional control/utility. Mother of Runes not only protects the creature base, which happens to be pretty fragile, she can also send smaller guys into the red zone more effectively (can be very effective with equipment like SoFI and an unactive Jitte).

The singleton Top is completely out of place. Whether or not it's necessary in here, I do not know. However, if I were to run it, it would be as a 3-4 of, and not a singleton.

This deck is not trying to be aggressive; the aggro package is not tempo oriented, and doesn't apply a fast beatdown. The aggro package is slow and controlling, primarily by gaining alot of card advantage. For this reason, I do not understand why Lightning Bolt is favored over Swords to Plowshares. Swords is a far more effective removal spell, and should most definitely be ran instead.

Basilisk Collar is really janky. I can understand it, slightly, in the current list, but it still seems like the worst equipment spell in the deck. In a list with Mother of Runes, Swords to Plowshares, and Vindicate (which is already being ran), the deck does not need the deathtouch. With Umezawa's Jitte, the deck does not need the lifelink.

Lands (22)
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

Spells (22)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

At this point, the deck is only splashing red for Grim Lavamancer's, which happen to be an absolute house against Vial Aggro so I think their inclusion is good. It also opens up Red Elemental Blasts in the sideboard. Otherwise, the deck focuses on B/W, since that's the core of the deck. I decided to keep the Top's in for now to see how strong they are. Even with SFM, Jitte is a critical element of this deck, and I feel 2 would work better.

I haven't playtested this, so my take may not be optimal. This is the direction I would go in, though.

ivanpei
05-03-2011, 11:31 PM
Mother of Runes not only protects the creature base, which happens to be pretty fragile, she can also send smaller guys into the red zone more effectively (can be very effective with equipment like SoFI and an unactive Jitte).

Swords is a far more effective removal spell, and should most definitely be ran instead.

Basilisk Collar is really janky.

I agree with Mom and STP, both are must plays IMO. However, I believe collar is worth a slot. Collar is searchable with Stoneforge and Combos with Grim Lavamancer. It wins games, period. Collar on a Mom is also more effective than Mom with Jitte sometimes. It should probably be a 1/1/1 Jitte/Sofi/Collar split. Cheers.

Guy I Don't Know
05-03-2011, 11:37 PM
Apparently Grim Lavamancer+ Basilisk Collar isn't good enough?

Also top is good as a one of because you never want to draw multiples and it is for the late game when you are in topdeck mode. 3 Tops are way too much. Doesn't fabiano know phillips? It doesn't surprise me he plays a top in the deck.

I like the idea of mother of runes, but realistically, what are you trying to protect? there are 12 other creatures and the biggest one is a 2/1... Having a creature with more than 2 power seems like a good idea. Maybe figure of destiny isn't the best, but I think something is needed that can kill someone in less than ten turns.

Hanni
05-03-2011, 11:47 PM
Apparently Grim Lavamancer+ Basilisk Collar isn't good enough?


For killing large creatures (without Shroud or Pro Red), sure. That's all you're getting from Basilisk Collar, though. In the meantime, you could instead be swinging with Jitte and either outsizing the large creatures, or actually presenting a clock rather than smacking around with 1-power creatures. Besides, you're already running effective answers to fatties with Swords/Vindicate, and you're banking on Grim Lavamancer to make Basilisk Collar any good. Jitte is amazing on every single creature in the deck.


Also top is good as a one of because you never want to draw multiples and it is for the late game when you are in topdeck mode. 3 Tops are way too much. Doesn't fabiano know phillips? It doesn't surprise me he plays a top in the deck.


I play with Top on a regular basis in alot of various decks. Multiple Top's is a nonissue with 10 fetchlands. You cast two Top's, tap one to draw, crack fetch, bye bye second Top. If you see another one in the top 3 later? You don't have to draw it. You want to see Top in the midgame, not the lategame, when you're still cracking fetchlands. By lategame, you really don't want to be drawing any more land. Don't get me wrong, Top is still incredibly strong in the lategame, but it's peak torque is midgame. Plus, with the decks current manabase and no Brainstorm to fix early hands, Top is very useful for smoothing the manabase during the early game.


I like the idea of mother of runes, but realistically, what are you trying to protect? there are 12 other creatures and the biggest one is a 2/1... Having a creature with more than 2 power seems like a good idea. Maybe figure of destiny isn't the best, but I think something is needed that can kill someone in less than ten turns.

You run 16 creatures that are all extremely fragile. What are you not trying to protect? Mom + Confidant is extremely strong, since resolving and protecting Confidant wins games. The creatures grow in size from the equipment. You don't need a creature that can get to become a 4/4 by the midgame when you can attach a Jitte to a creature in the midgame instead. A Confidant with a Jitte is swinging as a 6/5 once the Jitte goes active; something which Mother of Runes helps accomplish with minimal casualties. Figure of Destiny provides no utility to the deck, besides being a way to sink excess mana to try and get some fat. Considering that between Confidant and SFM, this deck will have alot of cards in hand that it will want to spend that mana on, I'd say Figure of Destiny seems a bit lackluster. Besides, even a 4/4 Figure of Destiny isn't very impressive. Even if Figure of Destiny was halfway decent in here, it's still not as essential as Mother of Runes is.

ivanpei
05-04-2011, 12:04 AM
I agree with your points but you'd be surprised by the effectiveness of Collar + Lavamancer. It really shuts down some decks and can even kill Emrakul/Reanimator Fatties. Suiting up Grim with a collar has won me plenty of games when I was playing Next Level Threshold and UR AJ Sacher Dreadstill. However, that might have been more relevant in those decks as there was no white for STP. I think Collar warrants testing though. It's proven itself to me but this deck has 4 STP, 4 Vindicate so it might be redundant when what you need is to swing in hard quickly. I'd run 1 in the board just in case, since it's incredibly useful in so many MUs.

Guy I Don't Know
05-04-2011, 12:18 AM
Your statements are well though out Hanni.

I think it is awkward playing a deck with creatures as its win condition that have stats of 1/1, 1/1, 1/2 and 2/1. If they deal with the equipment your clock is painfully slow.

CorpT
05-04-2011, 12:22 AM
I was pretty happy with Collar. It was better than I expected. Even just suiting up a sworded or jitted creature is impressive.

I don't think Mother belongs in this deck though. This isn't about stopping opponent's disruption. This deck is about disrupting your opponent. I have no idea what you'd take out for Mother either. My list is already really, really tight.

BWM
05-04-2011, 01:24 AM
Mirran Crusader seems like it could be tested...

TheSleeper
05-04-2011, 04:17 AM
Bitterblossom+Equipment is underrated and I +1 its testing

paladin3056
05-04-2011, 06:06 AM
What's your thought's on Student of Warfare over FoD? Less mana needed in order to become bigger, and it's easier to pay it's activation cost rather than FoD. It's double strike ability in it's ultimate form is very relevant together with the Swords and jitte.

Gheizen64
05-04-2011, 06:33 AM
What's your thought's on Student of Warfare over FoD? Less mana needed in order to become bigger, and it's easier to pay it's activation cost rather than FoD. It's double strike ability in it's ultimate form is very relevant together with the Swords and jitte.

It seems interesting since first strike can be pretty relevant, especially with Jitte and Collar, and you don't have to have 6 lands to buff it at the last level. The biggest issue i see is that you can't pump it with badlands, and those are the lands you fetch first usually. Need some testing.

paladin3056
05-04-2011, 06:56 AM
It seems interesting since first strike can be pretty relevant, especially with Jitte and Collar, and you don't have to have 6 lands to buff it at the last level. The biggest issue i see is that you can't pump it with badlands, and those are the lands you fetch first usually. Need some testing.

Ah yes now that you mentioned it, this deck seems to be leaning a lot on the BR side, I'll put that into consideration while testing. I just had to stress the good part about Student of Warfare since you do not really have to pay the full cost since it just cost W, and you can just level up if you have the mana to do it. But I think it this might work better in a BW Vial Tempo version.

Anyway, I was wondering if we can squeeze in Dismember from NPH as another form of removal in the deck since STP doesn't fit here too much due to the life gain and since MM is getting popular recently we would need a decent spot removal which would at least cost 1 but could dodge MM and Dismember fits that role perfectly.

Maagler
05-04-2011, 07:07 AM
I might suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant, he is a house when you drop him, and works great with weenie creatures.

yoshencranz
05-09-2011, 03:53 PM
i've been testing this deck as well lately and I have to say its pretty strong.

I too have been thinking about adding a singleton Elspeth, Knight Errant in place of the 4th Vindicate. I find that I will often be holding on to 2 vindicates in my hand and never really using the 2nd one. between either Swords/Lightning bolt, lavamancer and vindicate, we can afford to cut one for an elspeth.

I've been testing primarily versus Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, Rock and Affinity and find that they are all pretty decent to excellent match ups. Havent had much chance to verse straight combo yet, but i imagine thoughtseize, hymn are all boss in those matchups.

- Been loving the lavamancers...not so sure about the collar. its only been average and never a ground breaker for me, however, i imagine it being pretty good vs. goyfs/KnightofR/etc.

- love the 9 discard spells. seems like it may be overkill, but really works out fine as you end up playing 2-3 a game and it just shreds your opponents early/midgame plan.

- figure of destiny has been kind of difficult to pump for me. you are always using your mana in this deck. be it saving mana to vial in your equipment to lavamancer, its hard to reliably get this bad boy up to even level two. maybe i'm playing it wrong, but it seems like so much work for such an effect.

- been happy with Bolts over STP main vs. tribal matchups.

Did i mention I really like this deck already?

yoshencranz
05-09-2011, 04:32 PM
i also must mention that i have yet to test this deck in a world of Mental Missteps.

CorpT
05-09-2011, 04:35 PM
i also must mention that i have yet to test this deck in a world of Mental Missteps.

They weren't as bad as I was expecting. Sure, losing a FoD or something is bad, but we have more creatures coming. It's not like Goblins where the 1 drops are critical spells.

dsck
05-10-2011, 03:28 AM
Figure seems more like a mid-late game drop (4/4 with losing only 1 life to confidant is some pretty serious synergy) or an equipment carrier in early game.

Goddik
05-10-2011, 06:33 AM
Anyone considered countryside crusher?

CorpT
05-10-2011, 10:18 AM
Anyone considered countryside crusher?

Without the rest of the Loam package, Loam, Cycle Lands, etc..., Crusher just doesn't have the power that he does in Aggro Loam.

I think the better choice for a potential 3 drop would be Mirran Crusader. With the heavy equipment package, he gets even better.

Something we're testing out anyway.

T2Thoctar
05-15-2011, 06:29 PM
Has anybody else tried a more aggressive and burn-heavy version of this deck? I've been messing around with one on MTGO and it seems to hold it's own. Ideally it wants to stick a t1 mom to protect bob, then draw burn and gas off the top with a little bit of lifegain to mitigate bob. Just a rough decklist born out of late night tinkering, but:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Grim Lavamancer (15 1cmc)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Lightning Helix
1 Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic (15 2 cmc)

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace (hurts mom, but pro from most removal)
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vindicate (8 3cmc)

4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
4 Badland
3 Scrubland

12 fetches might be excessive, but it helps your later draws, and there's plenty of lifegain to make up for it. The nighthawk is kind of weak, but I'm still trying to figure out what works better in that slot. Like I said, I'm still trying to figure out if a more aggressive version is viable, just looking for some feedback.

Koplinchen
05-27-2011, 05:54 PM
CorpT, so what's your decklist then? I love this deck. Thank you!

Koplinchen
05-30-2011, 04:06 AM
Alright, lets get the things moving.

I love this deck. Seems like an oldchool disruption deck with play beatiful cards. I think though that we should discuss about how to improve this deck. Honestly, I dont think it will ever be a super deck but you have many possibilities and this deck definetly rewards a perfect play. Beating my Bant friend with this underdog deck is priceless.

Basics of this deck is clear:

4 Dark Confidant - best creature in legacy
4 Grim Lavamancer - possibly the best 1cc drop ever
4 Stoneforge Mystic - I think we should keep 4 since our creatures are very small and we need some reasonable clock

4 Hymn to Tourach - 2 for 1.
1 Umezawa's Jitte - game winner against so many decks
1 Sword of Fire and Ice - possibly the best sword

As you can see all these cards provide card advantage. I guess Gerrard was actually obsessed with CA since he let the rock player start in the semifinal - and was hymned twiced...

Then there are cards that allow us to make the things happen:

3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate - 4 are to many. Extra SDT is great.
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Basilisk Collar - disputable card, but combos well with grim and Mystic can block effectively. Gainlife is nice as well.

As you see I swaped Lightning Bolt with StP. Gerrard said it is better aginst combo and Grim+bolt can kill goyf I think this is clear change. I dont want dealing with every goyf or Kotr to be an epic battle. And since this deck is a Control and not an Aggro we need to stay calm.

I would leave lands as they are for now. But it is good to understand that we need red only for Grim and sideboard cards. Therfore I would drop one Badland for forth Scrubland. I would definetly stay with 23 lands. It might seem like a lot but we need two three duals to be operational and four of these are wastelands. Not mentioning we run zero basics. (this might change)

last slots

1 Ranger of Eos
1 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Figure of Destiny

I guess the slots which can be easily changed. Even from my testing Figure is kind of weird. It might be good topdeck in lategame but I dont like it very much. It could be Mother of Runes or Mirran Crusader as a two of. Mirran would give this deck punch. But then Ranger doesent make much sense. But Ranger+2Mirran+1figure is still a possibility.
Instead of Gerrards Verdict and since we run 4 Mystics I suggest Sword of Feast and Famine. It is great in the current meta. The sword you tutor in the first place aginst control, combo, team america and many green decks. People still dont know this one very much.

Side is autoinclusion of 3-4 Perish. I like that this deck doesnt suffer from Submerge, Perish, Llawan and some more.

Thanks for replies!

yoshencranz
06-03-2011, 04:10 PM
My playtest group does not have much much combo (only Elves) so my testing on that has been limited. Has anyone been having trouble with Standstill lately.

Merfolk is normally an awesome matchup, but things have changed a bit. Oddly enough Mental Misstep has not been the main culprit of this turn around. The real killer has been Standstill. You can stand to have your opponent Misstep your burn and lavamancers, however, plopping down a standstill has been devastating for me. In the 10 games we tested last night, I dont believe I won a single game where Standstill landed on the other side. The games where I did win in normal grind you out fashion is where my Thoughtseize or Inquisition did not get Misstep'd and I was able to successfully rip that Standstill out of their hand.

Also, has anyone tested Batterskull out yet? I'm going to take out the Basilisk Collar (too cute) and put in a singleton Batterskull. That may sway the matchup vs Standstill back in our favor.

My updated Main deck build. SB is still a mess.

4 Badland
3 Scrubland
1 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Figure of Destiny
1 Ranger of Eos

1 Ajani Vengeant (testing him out...jury is still out)

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte (still awesome vs Elves)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Lord_Cyrus
06-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Also, has anyone tested Batterskull out yet? I'm going to take out the Basilisk Collar (too cute) and put in a singleton Batterskull. That may sway the matchup vs Standstill back in our favor.


Batterskull is awesome. So awesome it's probably unbalanced and bad for the game in the long-run. You should definitely be running it. It will strengthen the Merfolk matchup some, but honestly standstill will continue to be a problem. Unfortunately for you, there are decks that are much better positioned than Merfolk to take advantage of it. Look at Owen Turtenwald's deck from the GP for an example. Your best hope is to seize it out of their hand, and hope they don't have the MMS. But a resolved Standstill on an open field will always be a beating. If you have to pop it, wait till you have a good hand and then Bolt them on their EoT so they have to discard most of the cards drawn. It's still ugly but it's better than just cracking it by playing some creature and praying they draw 3 blanks.

yoshencranz
06-03-2011, 04:32 PM
So basically, as long as Standstill is around this is a bad meta call.

Lord_Cyrus
06-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I believe you just hit the nail on the head. Standstill isn't ubiquitous yet though, and it isn't always a great card. For some laughs, watch a beginner try to cast/break Standstill. Experience and raw skill can easily defeat unfavorable cards.

So basically, as long as Standstill is prevalent in top decks piloted by good players this is a bad meta call.

yoshencranz
06-03-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't even want to go into the thought process of how we can beat a card like Standstill. All the ideas I came up with still just stunk.

Example

Load up on 1cc discards spells instead of Hymn to preemptively strike at the Standstills in their hand. Why this sucks?

On the draw: Mental Misstep your Inquisition, T2 play Standstill. frown.
On the Play: Mental Misstep your Inquistion. T2 Inquistion again, maybe you hit it, if so, you still spent 2 cards in your hand to get rid of Standstill and having done nothing to advance your Board Position.

Lord_Cyrus
06-03-2011, 05:07 PM
You just revealed the truth. It's not that Standstill is so good. Remember people stopped playing it almost completely for over a year. It's that Standstill+Mental Misstep is an easy, 2 card combo that can blow out the opponent, both on the draw and on the play.

By the by, however, breaking Standstill with Hymn to Tourach is not a bad play at all. What are they gonna do? Force it and lose 2 cards anyway?

swoop
06-03-2011, 05:16 PM
cast brainstorm so they need to discard two EOT, then cast hymn in your turn

Lord_Cyrus
06-03-2011, 05:23 PM
cast brainstorm so they need to discard two EOT, then cast hymn in your turn

Difficult to accomplish in a deck that doesn't feature islands or brainstorm...

swoop
06-03-2011, 05:59 PM
then its a bad deck

(had to write it) :p

Lord_Cyrus
06-03-2011, 06:03 PM
then its a bad deck

(had to write it) :p

Then you are in the wrong thread, sir.

Tiago_B.
06-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Then you are in the wrong thread, sir.

lol +1

I really think this deck has some potential. Batterskull is a great ideia. Most of times i would rather run StP over Lightning Bolt, so im not sure about that option.

Standstill is just one card, not every deck runs it. And i also think that 'breaking Standstill with Hymn to Tourach is not a bad play at all'.

nedleeds
06-04-2011, 11:49 AM
12 small utility creatures with no evasion is poor. Basilisk collar is cute but if that's your trick then run the far more reliable shadow guildmage. I've top 4 split the local 24-40 man local with Wbr 3 times, but I build for double white, not double black. Way less red in the main, red mostly for the board. Double white gets you better creatures and way better mid game with an Elspeth or two. I'll post my list when i'm not on this wretch ed ipad.

Edit:


4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Shadow Guildmage
3 x Mother of Runes
3 x Soltari Priest (was also Serra Avenger one week, but then burn started showing up in force)

4 x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Oblivion Ring

1 x Uwezama's Jitte
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Basilisk Collar
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 x Crackdown (could be a 3rd O-Ring or another Sword but it's a pet card of mine)
2 x Lightning Helix

4 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Swamp
1 x Plains
3 x Marsh Flats
3 x Arid Mesa
2 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Scrubland
4 x Plateau


Keep in mind this was pre-New Phyrexia / Mistep ... the board was (from memory)

4 x Red Blasts
2 x Boil
3 x Meltdown (stupid affinity)
4 x Jotun Grunt
2 x True Believer

or something to that effect, Leyline of Sanctity is also good times.

yoshencranz
06-06-2011, 10:42 AM
After some more testing this past weekend vs. Standstill decks (U/W Standstill Stoneblade, Merfolk) I've come to the opinion that Hymning is the best option available. They get one card if the Hymn isn't countered. Not great, but definitely not bad. Also, Hymning made the matchup not as bad as previously imagined. That said, I still put this as underdog to Standstill decks, especially vs. an excellent opponent.

I cut the Ajani as he's not good enough to catchup or stall the board and needs the board to be in your favor to be good. I replaced Ajani with Elspeth and am nothing but smiles. The extra dude you can get from Elspeth and the Divine Transformation is pretty excellent in a deck full of 1/1s, 2/1s and 1/2s.

Batterskull is a amazing as advertised, even in this deck. We all know what an untouched Stoneforge into Batterskull leads to.

I still like the Bolts, but sometimes need STPs if I dont draw the Vindicates so the jury is still out.

Irvindc
06-07-2011, 05:57 PM
Why don't use Bitterblossom? Mental Misstep is another interesting option.

1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Dark Confidant
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Bitterblossom
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mental Misstep
3 Vindicate
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
3 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland

Chrome Mox, like Deadguy Ale and UWB stone blade could be the solution against Standstill.

yoshencranz
06-08-2011, 10:55 AM
I was thinking about adding Misstep into the Board as well, but I dont know why we'd need it? our problem cards are cc2 cards: Tarmogoyf (if you play the lightning bolts over STP), Standstill, Tombstalker.

I'd still just rather Thoughtseize my opponent T1 and trying to rip that key card early.

Irvindc
06-08-2011, 04:55 PM
I like MM because it helps me to protect my Lavamancers and Figures from my oponent MM and to protect all my 2cc from spell snare. Both situations could help me against second turn landstill in some plays. On the other hand, it saves our confidants and friends from StP, PtE Bolts...

In my opinion cutting dangerous cards ( like wild Nacalt, Grim Lavamancer, entomb, putrid imp...) in turn cero could be interesting in any deck.

Besides that, MM + hymnto's and Thoughseize is so interesting, maximicing the power of discard effects.

-Hymnto -} snare -} MM Discard the other two = Priceless

-Thoughseize -} Brainstorm -} MM = So good

-Thoughseize -} MM -} MM = Good as well

And Bitterblossom is awesome, it helps against standstill, Tombstalker, Tarmogoyfs, other bitterblossoms...

yoshencranz
06-15-2011, 11:28 AM
My newest build. I dropped the Rangers b/c with Sensei's Top you end up getting to all the cards you need anyway. in place of it, I'm torn between Sword of War/Peace or Sword of Body/Mind. Both have their applications are I believe are meta calls. If you are playing vs more Bant/Tarmogoyf, then the Body/Mind is better (though still weak to STP). Of if you're up against UW Stoneblade/Ancestral Visions/Standstill, etc. then War/Peace is definitely the better call. I can even see it being awesome vs. Zoo as it blanks all their removal.

4 Marsh Flat
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scrubland
4 Badland
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mother of Runes
1 Figure of Destiny

3 Vindicate
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Sword of Body/Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte (or a sword with pro white)

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

peteypablo
06-22-2011, 05:53 AM
I've been testing italia w/ Bitterblossom as well and have been loving it.

4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

3 Bitterblossom

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
3 Scrubland
1 Plateau

Zoo's been a tough match-up, Path to Exile is annoying enough that I want to squeeze in some basics, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing consistency with opening hands.

peteypablo
06-22-2011, 05:55 AM
I've been testing Bitterblossom as well in italia and have been loving it.

1 Basilisk Collar
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant

3 Bitterblossom

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
3 Scrubland
1 Plateau

I'm a little worried about the zoo match-up, Path to exile is good enough to make me want to run basics, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing consistency with opening hands.

Al-ucard
06-22-2011, 06:36 AM
What if we quit discard and add more direct damage with lightning bolt and lightning helix? This way we have better match against tribal and zoo...

20 Lands
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
3 Badlands
3 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Plains
1 Mountain

18 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
3 Mirran Crusader

22 Others
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Aether vial
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to exile
3 Swords to plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

60 Total

Admiral_Arzar
06-22-2011, 09:28 AM
What if we quit discard and add more direct damage with lightning bolt and lightning helix? This way we have better match against tribal and zoo...



You don't want to cut discard in a format that has combo. Trust me.

yoshencranz
06-22-2011, 12:53 PM
i totally agree about not cutting discard. this deck is already a push vs. some combo strategies the last thing you want to do is give them a free match.

I've been wanting to try Bitterblossom out as well, however, I'm kind of leary about all that life loss. We lose LOTS of life with fetches, Bob and Thoughtseize already. Can the deck support Bitterblossom? one of the 3 has to go IMO to fit in Bitterblossom. We do have lifegain in the form of Batterskull and Jitte, but i dont think its enough for fetches/thoughseize and 2 life loss engines. Let me know how this plays out.

Has anyone brought the deck to your Legacy tournaments lately?

yoshencranz
06-22-2011, 12:59 PM
This weekend I got to playtest vs. Zoo and Team America.

Team America: I feel this match up comes down to who Wastelands and Hymns the other the most. Save the Vindicates for Jace.

Zoo: Really simple match up IMO. Before you get burned out, Batterskull and Swords more than get the job done.

I've been really really impressed with Batterskull in this deck. Honestly, since I've put them in the deck, I haven't fetched up the Jitte once. It's that good. If I weren't playing Bob's, I'd play 2 main.

peteypablo
06-22-2011, 04:27 PM
I've lost a handful of games out of ~30, maybe, to Bitterblossom. I'm not that concerned about it, though...some of those games I would've lost with or without Bitterblossom. I also run a copy of Gerrard's Verdict and Basilisk Collar for some extra life gain, I like Basilisk Collar with Bitterblossom to stop Tarmogoyf aggression or whatnot.

nightmaster
09-21-2011, 07:08 PM
What are people's thoughts on this deck now that Mental Misstep has been banned? Obviously it doesn't effect this deck directly, more like how might the deck change with the changing meta.

Osmin
09-25-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm putting some efforts, mainly in Cockatrice.
My current list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Vindicate
2 Bitterblossom
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

SB depends on meta.
Singleton Elspeth occasionally wins games.
Bitterblossom tokens wear equipment and put some pressure.

Kich867
10-01-2011, 07:55 PM
i totally agree about not cutting discard. this deck is already a push vs. some combo strategies the last thing you want to do is give them a free match.

I've been wanting to try Bitterblossom out as well, however, I'm kind of leary about all that life loss. We lose LOTS of life with fetches, Bob and Thoughtseize already. Can the deck support Bitterblossom? one of the 3 has to go IMO to fit in Bitterblossom. We do have lifegain in the form of Batterskull and Jitte, but i dont think its enough for fetches/thoughseize and 2 life loss engines. Let me know how this plays out.

Has anyone brought the deck to your Legacy tournaments lately?

I built what I thought was a relatively innovative deck only to find out that it was basically just Team Italia haha.

Bitterblossom has been something I hadn't thought about but sounds powerful in the deck. Something I've noticed though is this consistent Thoughtseize placement in the deck. Thoughtseize is the best discard because it's flexible, but this deck doesn't actually need a flexible discard. There's no reason to take life loss to your discard just for the option to hit a creature when the deck is practically designed to kill creatures. The basilisk collar is an interesting touch as well, and it's even more incentive to not use thoughtseize.

Swap it out for Duress, it hits everything but creatures (which you don't care about because you run oodles of removal and have more removal available to you than any other deck). That makes Bob / Bitter / Fetches easier to run.

Right now I'm running a list like this:

//Creatures: 14
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Figure of Destiny

//Spells: 17
4x Duress
4x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt

//Artifacts: 4
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

//Planeswalkers: 3
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Lands: 22
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
3x Badlands
3x Scrublands
2x Plateau
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

It's been testing very nicely so far, I want to try and fit Bitterblossom in somewhere, I may have to drop Elspeth for it which would be alright and keep the curve lower for Bob (though Elspeth has been quite amazing). I'll do more testing, but so far I find that it has a very positive match up against control and a solid aggro match up, combo seems to be the only tougher match up, but I believe dedicating the sideboard mostly towards combo would make that pretty good too.

I'd also like to try and fit a Basilisk Collar in but, I'm not sure how necessary it is. I like the Figure--it's nice when I can drop it first turn, then next turn Duress and pump him for a swing. I agree though, Mom feels like she would perform well in the deck, so I'll have to try that out, I don't want to try out too much too quickly however, as I may switch things too quickly before I realize how strong one option is. With that list, I've been very, very happy. I had previously Serra Avenger's in the Figure spot, but Elspeth made her feel less important to have..

yoshencranz
10-04-2011, 12:50 PM
Its good to see this thread semi alive again. I've been back to grinding with this deck since the bannings. During the reign of Mental Misstep I took up Aggro Loam to get around the CC1 thingy.

Anyhow, If you havent tried this deck with Liliana of the Veil yet, you MUST. There is no better shell for her than this deck, in my honest opinion. Tested a bunch versus UWBlade, Junk/Rock, Goblins and Merfolk, NO Bant and found her to be as ridiculous in each matchup.

Here is my list for reference:

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Figure of Destiny
2 Mother of Runes

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Lilliana of the Veil

3 Badland
4 Scrubland
1 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flat
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 PyroBlast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Dark Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Feast and FAmine
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

I've been going between 3 equipments and 1 top for awhile now as well. I can see the argument to go up 1 more sword but often i havent needed it. Sticking a batterskull then jumping it with Elspeth or have Mom punch it through have been good enough.

Lilliana took the place of Gerrard's Verdict and one creature slot which was occupied by a 2nd Figure of Destiny. Because of all the removal she is often just left there to eat at your opponents hand and then blow up stuff once she's reached full maternity. i find that with an active lavamancer and her up its nearly impossible for your opponent to mount a creature assault on you. for bigger stuff like Knights and Tarmogoyf, you have STP and Vindicate. Its awesome to finally have a Jace like planeswalker for this deck.

The synergy with Bob is great too, getting you so far ahead that all the discard wont matter. Sensei's Top is also good on its own with Lilliana as you can sculpt your hand and turns with her discard ability. All three together and it gets really unfair.

I think she is the last piece this deck needed to start consistently placing well. I wont be able to play this deck anytime soon competitively as I have other pressing obligations, but for sure i will be updating it and keeping it fresh for when i get the chance to play.

yoshencranz
10-04-2011, 12:53 PM
@Kich

How have the Engineered Explosives been working out for you? i've thought about adding mass removal elements to the deck as well to beat Bitterblossom, Worm Tokens, etc. but havent gotten around to it.

Kich867
10-04-2011, 05:08 PM
@Kich

How have the Engineered Explosives been working out for you? i've thought about adding mass removal elements to the deck as well to beat Bitterblossom, Worm Tokens, etc. but havent gotten around to it.

They're sick, at 2 I don't see them every game, but when I do see them, they're always meaningful. They blow up energy fields, tarmogoyfs, pretty much anything one-drop.. Generally when I see them in my hand I aim to play a more control style, and lay threats after I deal with theirs via discard/removal/EE. I never really thought about it before, but, yeah, instinctively I play a more patient game when I see them and focus on really disrupting them.

Against Belcher, I've had many games where they can't pull off the turn 1 combo, so they drop like 14 goblins or something, EE at 0 on turn 2 wins the game. I'm tempted to put 1 more in the board, because it also potentially helps VS any mass token production and a number of effective strategies like counterbalance.

As a general statement, I'm always very happy to see them. Also, I'm absolutely loving this deck, it feels very powerful. I recently dropped Elspeth for Bitterblossom, I'm still not convinced by either of them. Bitterblossom needs more testing, I like the curve of it better since I basically curve out at like 2 mana, but I don't know. Unless you can get equipment down, it takes awhile to kill someone with 1/1's. Though I suppose if you compare it to Elspeth: 1: you don't randomly eat 4 damage from Bob. 2: Bitterblossom is a lot easier to play.

Liliana of the Veil is an interesting addition, I'll try her out in the elspeth spot as a 3-of.

yoshencranz
10-04-2011, 07:40 PM
In a deck full of removal, Lilliana is even MORE removal. And no, it is definitely not win more.

In a deck full of discard, Lilliana is even MORE discard and forces your opponent to just drop their permanents or spells into play most often using them sub optimally.

@Kich: I guess I'll try EE out as well though probably as a one of first partly because I only own one. I hadnt thought about it vs. Belcher, but you are absolutely correct.

Osmin
10-06-2011, 05:12 AM
yoshencranz, don't you think that you have too few wincons? Only 1 Batterskull, 1 Figure and 1 Elspeth. Other creature are too small.
Also, can you describe your sideboard strategy?

yoshencranz
10-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Equiping any of the small guys with Swords are often enough to get there. An equipped Bob gets in for 6 with Sword of Fire and Ice. I can see the argument of going up a few more Figures though but I have tried and feel most comfortable grinding them out. There have been times where my Batterskull got destroyed and I had to find more roundabout ways to win. You have a good point there and something that I will look into for future builds. Any good suggestions?

As for my SB:

Gatekeepers are for NO RUG/BANT, Emrakul, etc. I've played Chainers/Diabolic Edicts there as well but would randomly get them Spell Pierced and such so i went with Gatekeeper. Though playing Gatekeeper isnt anything new, I've caught a few people off guard with this one.

the Pyros/Red Blasts are for Jace and Hivemind and combo. It helps to be able to side out STP for helpful things vs Combo or Jace. also vs. Jace decks, I like to keep my Vindicates and such for big stuff like Tombstalker and Goyfs.

Relics/Crypt: you have to respect Dredge up here in MN. someone always shows up with Dredge here.

the Bolts, DarkBlast and Basilisk Collar are suspect. just trying out stuff.

Osmin
10-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Equiping any of the small guys with Swords are often enough to get there. An equipped Bob gets in for 6 with Sword of Fire and Ice. I can see the argument of going up a few more Figures though but I have tried and feel most comfortable grinding them out. There have been times where my Batterskull got destroyed and I had to find more roundabout ways to win. You have a good point there and something that I will look into for future builds. Any good suggestions?

Bitterblossom slow, Mirran Crusader has WW in cost... I'd suggest to replace SDTs with 2 Figures.

yoshencranz
10-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Osmin,

So it looks like you are off the Bitterblossom and Mirran Crusader bus? How about Phyrexian Obliterator? all the lands minus the Plateau and Wastelands make Black so it wouldnt be too hard to cast. His CC is low enough where you wont get too hurt revealing him.

as for the Tops, I really like having them with Bob. Makes for better card selection. if anything, i'd go down to 1 top, but i just like the feel of them in the deck.

I'm gonna try out this creature base and let you know how it works.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mom
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Figure of Destiny

1 Sensei's Divining Top

Kich867
10-07-2011, 03:06 AM
Osmin,

So it looks like you are off the Bitterblossom and Mirran Crusader bus? How about Phyrexian Obliterator? all the lands minus the Plateau and Wastelands make Black so it wouldnt be too hard to cast. His CC is low enough where you wont get too hurt revealing him.

as for the Tops, I really like having them with Bob. Makes for better card selection. if anything, i'd go down to 1 top, but i just like the feel of them in the deck.

I'm gonna try out this creature base and let you know how it works.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mom
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Figure of Destiny

1 Sensei's Divining Top

I get where you're coming from with it. After testing Bitterblossom for a few games I was less than pleased with it. Mainly, because I never want to drop it until turn 4. Turn 2 is for stoneforge or hymn, turn 3 is for stoneforge activation + discard, turn 4 is usually some tide-turning thing like vindicate or swords, and this is generally when I cast it.

But then I felt like, why am I casting BB at turn 4 when I could have just cast Elspeth and won in 3 turns? The deck has too many more important things to do prior to playing BB that it feels like it gets in the way more than it helps.

I agree that we don't really -need- a huge beater creature, but quite frankly, Batterskull wins most of my games, I'd like another solid, fairly large creature that's just dedicated to hitting things. Unfortunately, W/R/B doesn't really have anything like this, except for probably Mirran Crusader who's just absurdly powerful. I mean, one hit with Jitte is 4 charges, the next swing goes in for 24 damage bare minimum (+8/8, between first strike and normal damage you can pop the 2 charges you get from first strike for another 4).

If I stick with Elspeth, he wins in a few turns as well. I'd almost like something with more utility but, I want something not-so-reliant on equipment in order to win, as it was pointed out earlier in the thread, if your equipment gets nuked it feels -awful- how long it takes to kill people. It leaves open room for comebacks that I'm not fond of, the double white can possibly be a pain...

Has anyone tried Stillmoon Cavalier in the deck? Avoids white and black removal, can fly, can first strike, and can get pumped; flexible mana cost as well, he might as well cost 3 colorless for us actually..

Har har! To testing! Right now I'm aiming to drop Figure of Destiny, it's not very good, it's a shitty vanilla creature and never achieves final form, and a 4/4 even for theoretically 1 mana but over the course of like 2-4 turns is not that great. I want something that's hard to deal with in that slot, SFM / Bob / Lavamancer are all set numbers and for my last 3x creature slot I want something with some oomph. Same with the Elspeth / Bitterblossom spot, I want something that isn't necessarily a creature (I'd prefer it if it wasn't) but is very useful, maybe I'll try top's in that spot..yeah. That sounds good actually. I'll be trying Top + Stillmoon Cavalier in my flex spots. The rest of the deck is rather set in stone for me, but the last creature spot and those 3 flex spots still don't feel right. Sorry my post is all over the place, my mind jumps around when I'm thinking about things, Mirran Crusader seems like the obvious choice for me, but I'd like to explore other avenues before I get to where I think I'm going anyways.

yoshencranz
10-07-2011, 09:13 AM
This suggestion may be WAAY crazy, but what about....

Champion of the Parish? all our creatures are Humans anyway. He can theoretically grow to 3-4 power/toughness during the game on his own. He's a one drop, can be fetched up with Ranger (should we choose to go that route). the only knock on him is that he's a vanilla creature and his artwork sucks.

we could still go Jotun Grunt, but he dies way too quickly if you drop him early and is anti synergistic with Lavamancer. Though, it may be a good way to get our Swords and Batterskull back into our libraries.

paladin3056
10-09-2011, 10:03 AM
This suggestion may be WAAY crazy, but what about....

Champion of the Parish? all our creatures are Humans anyway. He can theoretically grow to 3-4 power/toughness during the game on his own. He's a one drop, can be fetched up with Ranger (should we choose to go that route). the only knock on him is that he's a vanilla creature and his artwork sucks.

we could still go Jotun Grunt, but he dies way too quickly if you drop him early and is anti synergistic with Lavamancer. Though, it may be a good way to get our Swords and Batterskull back into our libraries.

Hey there, I have been working on the exact same idea, basically using Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Mirran crusader and Ranger of Eos (to fetch for more Humans). The only thing about Champion is that he is a very bad top deck card, but really strong if dropped early, if compared to FoD which requires mana investment, this doesn't even need mana to make him bigger, you just have to play your threats one after the other and make him big instantly, the bad part is that you will be tempted to cast of your creatures to make him even bigger which is quite tempting indeed, so I suggest to play it wisely. The good thing is that since we are using equipments, it can make it into an even bigger threat than maybe even goyf. Anyway will post a list once I get the time to perfect it.

Cheers!

Leto
10-10-2011, 05:05 AM
He guys, I am a playing DGA atm and we had the same Problem to solve in our Deck. Finding a big guy who finishes the game when all the disruption was done.

I am very happy atm with Abyssal Persecutor. He is bigger than almost every Legacy-Creature, flies and has Trample to solve chump-problems like BB. With 2BB he is easy to cast in a multicolor-deck. The drawback was in DGA NEVER a problem, I played as usual not saving up removal for him as I know that I have enough. With Lili the options gettin even better, or Grim + Collar


Another Question. I friend of mine played some URB-Deck with Demigod of Revenge as finisher. Ever thought about that. Lili discarding him and then bamm ;)

Leto
10-10-2011, 05:06 AM
He guys, I am a playing DGA atm and we had the same Problem to solve in our Deck. Finding a big guy who finishes the game when all the disruption was done.

I am very happy atm with Abyssal Persecutor. He is bigger than almost every Legacy-Creature, flies and has Trample to solve chump-problems like BB. With 2BB he is easy to cast in a multicolor-deck. The drawback was in DGA NEVER a problem, I played as usual not saving up removal for him as I know that I have enough. With Lili the options gettin even better, or Grim + Collar


Another Question. I friend of mine played some URB-Deck with Demigod of Revenge as finisher. Ever thought about that. Lili discarding him and then bamm ;)

KobeBryan
10-11-2011, 03:19 PM
I playtested this deck against my brother's "The Gate". This deck cannot keep up with his 10 removals and his fatties.

sure we got the grim and collar, but he just innocent bloods it. When liliana dropped on the table, it was game over each time. Bolts help, but he isn't stupid enough to lower the liliana life counter. I cannot even compete against his eva green deck. However, the batterskull does help a lot in this matchup. He just needs to stay alive.

What this deck does good against is his Merfolk deck.

Kich867
10-11-2011, 03:54 PM
Batterskull doesn't need to stay alive, it's a recurring creature, just return it to your hand and play it again after the token dies.

I don't see how Liliana would end the game, vindicate her if need be, you should be running swords, vindicate, and lightning bolt. However, part of what you said makes me wonder if I should try running Terminate in the lightning bolt spot, giving us the most unconditional removals.

KobeBryan
10-11-2011, 04:50 PM
Batterskull doesn't need to stay alive, it's a recurring creature, just return it to your hand and play it again after the token dies.

I don't see how Liliana would end the game, vindicate her if need be, you should be running swords, vindicate, and lightning bolt. However, part of what you said makes me wonder if I should try running Terminate in the lightning bolt spot, giving us the most unconditional removals.

True, but targeted discard is HELL, same with cabal therapy.

Also, when he drops his phyrexian crusader with a jitte, it is GAME

Osmin
10-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Also, when he drops his phyrexian crusader with a jitte, it is GAME

Go for the Throat?

KobeBryan
10-11-2011, 05:04 PM
Go for the Throat?

Do you run go for the throat in your deck?

yoshencranz
10-11-2011, 05:15 PM
depending on your meta i guess it would be ok to run Terminate.

Up here in MN, people love Bant and BUG colored decks. Lots of Merfolk too. i've been 100% OK with Swords to Plowshares or Bolt. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldnt be too concerned with the Gate matchup seeing that you will rarely play it in a tournament. I'd be much more concerned with beating Goyf and counters.

Osmin
10-12-2011, 02:59 AM
Do you run go for the throat in your deck?

No, but if you often play against Gate, you should consider it.

Kich867
10-12-2011, 05:56 PM
After thinking about it for awhile, little bit of testing, little bit of inspiration here and there (saw a post from Mr. Safety that just made a lot of sense and made other options seem pretty inferior), this is probably leaning towards my final list until some super baller tech that I've never thought of shows up:

//Creatures: 14
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Stillmoon Cavalier

//Spells: 17
4x Duress
4x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt

//Artifacts: 7
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

//Lands: 22
4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
3x Badlands
3x Scrublands
2x Plateau
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

Still need to work on the sideboard but it's probably going to be against the combo match up mostly, since that's the only really difficult match up for this deck imo. We have enough removal for aggro and enough discard / vindicate against control, and both for aggro control.

The only thing about this list that bothers me is I'd really like to fit Sword of Fire and Ice in here. Because honestly, Jitte sometimes doesn't feel that great.

I know a lot of lists don't run EE's, and that seems to be the only flex spot left. I don't wnat to run 1-2 tops, that seems stupid, getting rid of EE's would make room for a main board SOFAI and filling back up to 4 of something else--probably bolt or swords. BUT, EE's have been awesome to me. I certainly could sideboard them though, bring them out for tribal and dredge or something..

So, from other TI players, if you had 3 Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Hymn to Tourachs, which one would you rather run 4 of?

KobeBryan
10-12-2011, 06:05 PM
Drop the senseis'

up 4 bolts, 4 hymns. 4 grims. Take out stillmoon. They are mana sinks. Taking up your precious mana to shoot with grims.

Explosives are more of a sideboard card. That will give you room for sword of fire and ice.

Kich867
10-12-2011, 06:42 PM
Drop the senseis'

up 4 bolts, 4 hymns. 4 grims. Take out stillmoon. They are mana sinks. Taking up your precious mana to shoot with grims.

Explosives are more of a sideboard card. That will give you room for sword of fire and ice.

Them being a mana sink is kind of why they're there. Grim lavamancers rarely have issues of not being able to shoot, and I'd typically rather save their shots for better plays than hitting my opponent's in the face with it. The key part is they're a mana sink if and only if I want to do more damage with them--if they don't have a creature that can block him, I don't need to fly, I can leave mana open for lavamancers, it's not required to use it on him..The spot was previously FOD, which felt suboptimal, the role I want to fill with those 3 creature slots is a beater.

The tops I don't really see the need for their removal, they work well with Bob and I find the card filtering to be ideal.

Furthermore, if I were to drop stillmoon's, what do you suggest I put in their place, Mom's?

caiomarcos
10-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Furthermore, if I were to drop stillmoon's, what do you suggest I put in their place, Mom's?

Mom is a must. They hold up attacks until you get a StP or Vindicate, then they make your equipped dude go for the kill in a couple of turns. She makes any removal your opponent has only 1/2 removal. Very, very versatile and a nightmare against any deck that uses the combat phase.

Kich867
10-13-2011, 03:32 AM
Mom is a must. They hold up attacks until you get a StP or Vindicate, then they make your equipped dude go for the kill in a couple of turns. She makes any removal your opponent has only 1/2 removal. Very, very versatile and a nightmare against any deck that uses the combat phase.

Mm, yeah, I tried them out for awhile today, wasn't thrilled. The pump was rarely relevant, flying and first strike were far, far more relevant. Mom will be put in his place.

yoshencranz
10-17-2011, 10:37 AM
Yeah, i just like the way Mom feels more in this deck. Particularly because against somefast aggro rush like Goblins, if they dont answer her t2, then basically you can just stall until you get a Sword of FIre and Ice. From there its mopping up.

If I could play Kira in this deck, I would, but Mom does the job just as well, if not better because she enters the game so quickly.

Lilliana is still a Stone-Cold Stunner in this deck. You really should give her a try particularly if your meta is full of Bant, Team America or Reanimator.

As far as the Finishers go, how about Kitchen Finks and move shift the mana base a little more White? the life gain is good vs burn, Persist good vs. Deed and EE mass removal etc. i'm gonna test this creature base next:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Mother of Runes
2 Kitchen Finks

2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (normally a Feast and Famine, but i want to try it out with Kitchen Finks)

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flat
3 Arid Mesa
4 Scrubland
3 Badland
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland

yoshencranz
10-17-2011, 10:39 AM
oops...add a third Finks up there. to make it 60

KobeBryan
10-27-2011, 06:04 PM
Anyone feel running too many SFM is slowing the deck down?

I turn 1 grim or turn 1 discard. turn 2 SFM,

Means I really can't do anything until turn 4-5.

from Cairo
10-27-2011, 10:59 PM
Anyone feel running too many SFM is slowing the deck down?

I turn 1 grim or turn 1 discard. turn 2 SFM,

Means I really can't do anything until turn 4-5.

I would definitely max Confidants and Hymns before SFMs, but that said I think there's room for 13 2cc cards (maxing all 3 w/ a Jitte).

I can definitely see what you're saying about SFM being mana intensive, but with this deck's curve I don't think one necessarily has to run it out turn 2 all the time. If one leads 1cc Discard and clears the way, Hymn or DC can be better plays as they start getting ahead for just 2 mana. Sometimes playing out a Top, Wasteland and/or a removal spell is better to leave mana up for Grim, etc.

I think it's important to keep at least 15ish 1cc cards in the list to keep one's options open the first few turns. It's not uncommon that I'd hold back SFM while trying to get a clear opportunity to maximize it's effect - baiting out counters/removal or even just getting enough mana to push the piece of equipment onto a guy the turn after tutoring it.

Some of it may come down to play style, I didn't really find this to be a very fast deck - even running a list with Lightning Bolts and Mirran Crusader. It still generally was a grinding style of play, where everything had to be dealt with by the opponent and Team Italia had the 12x 2cc 2-for-1s and then a bunch of virtual card advantage through MoR, Grim, Equipment and card selection of SDT. Eventually, in the midgame I'd fetched out a bunch of land and had a Top spinning to keep gas up and something would stick with equipment and end the game a couple turns later.

IDK, that's kind of a wall of text - the TL;DR more or less being I wouldn't feel obligated to bury one's self in SFM's tempo-sink early on, with this deck's curve it can be a totally legitimate midgame play.

KobeBryan
10-28-2011, 12:52 AM
I would definitely max Confidants and Hymns before SFMs, but that said I think there's room for 13 2cc cards (maxing all 3 w/ a Jitte).

I can definitely see what you're saying about SFM being mana intensive, but with this deck's curve I don't think one necessarily has to run it out turn 2 all the time. If one leads 1cc Discard and clears the way, Hymn or DC can be better plays as they start getting ahead for just 2 mana. Sometimes playing out a Top, Wasteland and/or a removal spell is better to leave mana up for Grim, etc.

I think it's important to keep at least 15ish 1cc cards in the list to keep one's options open the first few turns. It's not uncommon that I'd hold back SFM while trying to get a clear opportunity to maximize it's effect - baiting out counters/removal or even just getting enough mana to push the piece of equipment onto a guy the turn after tutoring it.

Some of it may come down to play style, I didn't really find this to be a very fast deck - even running a list with Lightning Bolts and Mirran Crusader. It still generally was a grinding style of play, where everything had to be dealt with by the opponent and Team Italia had the 12x 2cc 2-for-1s and then a bunch of virtual card advantage through MoR, Grim, Equipment and card selection of SDT. Eventually, in the midgame I'd fetched out a bunch of land and had a Top spinning to keep gas up and something would stick with equipment and end the game a couple turns later.

IDK, that's kind of a wall of text - the TL;DR more or less being I wouldn't feel obligated to bury one's self in SFM's tempo-sink early on, with this deck's curve it can be a totally legitimate midgame play.

Thats why i'm thinking i might even drop the sfm to even a two of. Max on the bobs, max on the hymns, lots of one drops, so i can get two cards onto the board on turn 2.

with 2 sfm and 3 swords, thats five cards i can draw into for an equipment. Its not too bad if you think about it. It sure beats having 4 sfm and 3 swords.

KobeBryan
10-28-2011, 12:53 AM
I would definitely max Confidants and Hymns before SFMs, but that said I think there's room for 13 2cc cards (maxing all 3 w/ a Jitte).

I can definitely see what you're saying about SFM being mana intensive, but with this deck's curve I don't think one necessarily has to run it out turn 2 all the time. If one leads 1cc Discard and clears the way, Hymn or DC can be better plays as they start getting ahead for just 2 mana. Sometimes playing out a Top, Wasteland and/or a removal spell is better to leave mana up for Grim, etc.

I think it's important to keep at least 15ish 1cc cards in the list to keep one's options open the first few turns. It's not uncommon that I'd hold back SFM while trying to get a clear opportunity to maximize it's effect - baiting out counters/removal or even just getting enough mana to push the piece of equipment onto a guy the turn after tutoring it.

Some of it may come down to play style, I didn't really find this to be a very fast deck - even running a list with Lightning Bolts and Mirran Crusader. It still generally was a grinding style of play, where everything had to be dealt with by the opponent and Team Italia had the 12x 2cc 2-for-1s and then a bunch of virtual card advantage through MoR, Grim, Equipment and card selection of SDT. Eventually, in the midgame I'd fetched out a bunch of land and had a Top spinning to keep gas up and something would stick with equipment and end the game a couple turns later.

IDK, that's kind of a wall of text - the TL;DR more or less being I wouldn't feel obligated to bury one's self in SFM's tempo-sink early on, with this deck's curve it can be a totally legitimate midgame play.

Thats why i'm thinking i might even drop the sfm to even a two of. Max on the bobs, max on the hymns, lots of one drops, so i can get two cards onto the board on turn 2.

with 2 sfm and 3 swords, thats five cards i can draw into for an equipment. Its not too bad if you think about it. It sure beats having 4 sfm and 3 swords.

Einherjer
10-28-2011, 07:09 AM
Guys - Could anyone explain me why you arent playing Deadguy Ale? Its like only Grim Lavamancer and sometimes Bolt to add + a more instable manabase...

Mr. Safety
10-28-2011, 10:00 AM
After thinking about it for awhile, little bit of testing, little bit of inspiration here and there (saw a post from Mr. Safety that just made a lot of sense and made other options seem pretty inferior).

I was lurking this thread, saw your list and thought to myself "awesome! Someone is trying out Stillmoon Cavalier!" I can't even remember the post I made, was it in the Deadguy Ale thread?


The only thing about this list that bothers me is I'd really like to fit Sword of Fire and Ice in here. Because honestly, Jitte sometimes doesn't feel that great.

I agree with you there. I'm porting Team Italia to modern (quite successful so far) and Sword of Fire and Ice is the shit with Stillmoon Cavalier. Protection from everything but green...and a fast clock with evasion for only :w: or :b:. Jitte seems underwhelming for a deck that already has a boatload of removal. If you want/need lifegain, Batterskull is your best Mystic target. If you run into a ton of problems with sligh/cat sligh/burn, I would sideboard Sword of Light and Shadow. It will get killed threats back along with providing lifegain. It also makes anything in your deck a Stillmoon Cavalier by giving pro: StP, Smother, Ghastly Demise, Path to Exile, Dismember, and Go for the Throat. I'm using Basilisk Collar in modern, because I don't have Jitte available. The synergy with Grim Lavamancer is pretty good, and it can be a singleton in your sideboard. The low cost makes it easy to tutor and play the same turn, without needing to rely on the cheaty effect of Mystic.


I know a lot of lists don't run EE's, and that seems to be the only flex spot left. I don't wnat to run 1-2 tops, that seems stupid, getting rid of EE's would make room for a main board SOFAI and filling back up to 4 of something else--probably bolt or swords. BUT, EE's have been awesome to me. I certainly could sideboard them though, bring them out for tribal and dredge or something..

I wouldn't take out EE. It seems odd to me that it is quite underplayed ATM in legacy, and is almost non-existant in modern. It shores up your aggro matchup. I look at it as a diversified Grim Lavamancer effect. Two Grims is kind of 'meh', so 3 seems right. If you draw an Explosives alongside Grim, you have a potent control plan. I've always looked at EE as a very close similarity (functionally) as a reactive Chalice of the Void. Considering the loss of Mental Misstep and the rise of powerful 1-drop creatures (or re-rise, if you will) Explosives seems smart ATM.

I think the Tops + Bobs is what makes your deck so damn good. It's a powerful engine that can really make your early-mid game really solid. This makes Stillmoon even better in the mid-late game.



So, from other TI players, if you had 3 Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Hymn to Tourachs, which one would you rather run 4 of?

I hope I'm not being a troll here (I only play TI in modern) but I wouldn't 4-up on Hymn...the double black is somewhat problematic depending on your mix of cards in your hand. I would probably go with 4 Lightning Bolts. They are good at any stage in the game and improve your reach slightly. Given Bob and Tops, 3 Swords should be ok (considering the 4-shot of Vindicate and the high density of disruption/tempo denial options)

From Philipp802:

Guys - Could anyone explain me why you arent playing Deadguy Ale? Its like only Grim Lavamancer and sometimes Bolt to add + a more instable manabase...

Because Grim Lavamancer is a fair bit of freakin' awesome right now. A RUG tempo thresh list that ran Grims just got a top 8 spot at PT-Amsterdam. The gameplan for both decks is very similar: land a potent threat, stifle tempo, ride your threat to victory. In TI's case, the ideal threat to ride is Bob because of the insane card advantage he grants. In the RUG-TT list, it was Delver or Mongoose that it relied on.

Last thought, and Mr. Troll Safety will go away: Is there a reason (beyond Grim Lavamancer) that 2x Tombstalker isn't used in Team Italia?

EDIT: That must have been retard coffee I drank this morning...although, I should never blame something so pure as coffee for me being a dumbass.

from Cairo
10-28-2011, 03:06 PM
Guys - Could anyone explain me why you arent playing Deadguy Ale? Its like only Grim Lavamancer and sometimes Bolt to add + a more instable manabase...

Grim, Lightning Bolt and REB/Pyroblast. It's the same cards UW Stoneblade sometimes splash Red for. The first 2 provide some reach and buff the agro matches while not being blanks against non-creature based strategies and the blasts buff the control match. This list tends to get a bit more utility/versatility out of it's cards.

Though to be fair I think the printing of Liliana of the Veil helped Deadguy considerably in versatility department, giving it an extra set of edict effects or a way to continue to apply hand pressure. The deck still kind of lacks a supplemental good 1cc Black creature to curve out with in my opinion.


I'm using Basilisk Collar in modern, because I don't have Jitte available. The synergy with Grim Lavamancer is pretty good, and it can be a singleton in your sideboard. The low cost makes it easy to tutor and play the same turn, without needing to rely on the cheaty effect of Mystic.

I ran Collar with Mental Misstep when it was legal in this deck. The combo with Grim came online a few times, it's good, but a 1/1 is just so easy to nuke and Collar otherwise doesn't add a whole lot to one's clock. I think it's passable with Mirran Crusader since you get a Doublestrike Deathtoucher, but generally speaking I think I want my equipment to do more, even if it costs more.



I think the Tops + Bobs is what makes your deck so damn good. It's a powerful engine that can really make your early-mid game really solid.

Totally agree, a few people have said to drop Top, but I think 2x is really solid especially with 10+ fetches and Stoneforge Mystic. One can really keep pressure up with this card in the list. I haven't seen anyone argue against Bob.



So, from other TI players, if you had 3 Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Hymn to Tourachs, which one would you rather run 4 of?



I hope I'm not being a troll here (I only play TI in modern) but I wouldn't 4-up on Hymn...the double black is somewhat problematic depending on your mix of cards in your hand. I would probably go with 4 Lightning Bolts. They are good at any stage in the game and improve your reach slightly. Given Bob and Tops, 3 Swords should be ok (considering the 4-shot of Vindicate and the high density of disruption/tempo denial options).

@Kich867: With 9 slots to fill between Hymn, Swords and Bolts - I'd max Hymn. It's the only one that provides card advantage and it's at it's best when you see in your opening 7-9 cards. Early double Black shouldn't be much of an issue. I generally grab Badlands and Scrubland as my first 2 duals anyway. Given 9 slots I would run 4 Hymn to Torach, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Bolts and Swords gives 5 slots to answer turn 1 guys - Nacatl, Delver, Lackey, and early must kills SFM, Bob, etc. Midgame you have 4 Vindicate and 2 Swords to Plowshares to deal with Knight of the Reliquary or Merfolk lords, what have you.



Last thought, and Mr. Troll Safety will go away: Is there a reason (beyond Grim Lavamancer) that 2x Tombstalker isn't used in Team Italia?


Dark Confidant and as you mention Grim both don't play well with Tombstalker. I think the Equipment plan is a more resilient win condition as we don't have much to protect Tombstalker from topdecked removal. Tombstalker also doesn't offer any utility to the deck, it's really just a clock, where most of the guys and spells this deck has apply some disruption or card advantage and on a controlled board with a piece of equipment can seal the game just as well.

Kich867
10-28-2011, 05:57 PM
I believe it was the deadguy ale thread, before I knew my deck was team italia I took mass influence from dead guy ale, death and taxes, patriot, etc.

The deck doesn't win quite as quickly as I would want it to right now, which I'm not sure how I feel about it. I feel like I'm playing a mid range control deck without the mid-range creatures. Stillmoon is good, but often feels unimpressive--whether he is I'm not so sure, but he doesn't have that splash that I want. Mirran Crusader might since he wins in 2 turns with equipment and mauls but I'm not sure...when things like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Delver, Clique, and KOTR walk around all of my creatures feel inferior (albeit, I have the means to kill them all, but when I don't, it sucks).

Mr. Safety
10-28-2011, 07:47 PM
I ran Collar with Mental Misstep when it was legal in this deck. The combo with Grim came online a few times, it's good, but a 1/1 is just so easy to nuke and Collar otherwise doesn't add a whole lot to one's clock. I think it's passable with Mirran Crusader since you get a Doublestrike Deathtoucher, but generally speaking I think I want my equipment to do more, even if it costs more.

Totally agree...I use Collar in modern out of neccessity, along with Sword of F&I and Batterskull (along with Steelshaper's Gift. It's no Mystic, but it makes it all come together.)



@Kich867: With 9 slots to fill between Hymn, Swords and Bolts - I'd max Hymn. It's the only one that provides card advantage and it's at it's best when you see in your opening 7-9 cards. Early double Black shouldn't be much of an issue. I generally grab Badlands and Scrubland as my first 2 duals anyway. Given 9 slots I would run 4 Hymn to Torach, 3 Lightning Bolt, 2 Swords to Plowshares. The Bolts and Swords gives 5 slots to answer turn 1 guys - Nacatl, Delver, Lackey, and early must kills SFM, Bob, etc. Midgame you have 4 Vindicate and 2 Swords to Plowshares to deal with Knight of the Reliquary or Merfolk lords, what have you.

I have found Lightning Bolt to be a much better mid-late game top-deck. Hymn, as you say, is golden in the early game. Late game, it loses a lot of gas, and can even be a dead card. I figured Bolt is always useful, max out on it. Hymn is great, but you also have Bob for card advantage (and he is definately better.) I'm not saying Hymn is bad, I would just personally stick with 3 copies and go with 4 Bolts.




Dark Confidant and as you mention Grim both don't play well with Tombstalker.

You didn't see my edit, lol...

EDIT: That must have been retard coffee I drank this morning...although, I should never blame something so pure as coffee for me being a dumbass.

Kich867
10-30-2011, 02:45 PM
I'm feeling like this deck needs a more aggressive creature base. Two things that white and red offer (mostly white) are Mom and cheap Double Strike creatures.

Namely, Boros Swiftblade and Mirran Crusader. I feel that Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice between the two, but Boros Swiftblade being so cheap is definitely something worth considering. In either case, you can kill someone in two turns with a Jitte-- Boros Swiftblade hits for 6 with combat tricks, then next turn hits for 14 with combat tricks. Crusader just trucks through like a boss even harder.

I like that Boros is 1 mana cheaper and easier on mana types to cast, but Crusader being 1 more mana hits twice as hard and has protection from two absurdly relevant colors by himself--this also leaves Mom open to only have to give prot vs white or red spot removal.

I feel like also removing Batterskull from the deck in favor of SoFaI, getting SFM removed after a batterskull pull feels awful. He's a champ when he's down but he's often too late and while he's a solid clock, I'd rather pull a jitte on turn 2, drop crusader on turn 3, flash in jitte and equip on turn 4, and end the game on turn 5.


//Creatures: 17
3x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Mirran Crusader

//Spells: 18
4x Vindicate
4x Duress
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 4
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands: 21
4x Wasteland
2x Badlands
3x Scrubland
2x Plateau
4x Marsh Flats
3x Arid Mesa
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Swamp

I'll be playtesting this list tonight.

Mr. Safety
10-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Mirran Crusader seems decent. Better initial gain than Stillmoon Cavalier.

How do you feel about Sulfuric Vortex in this deck?

Kich867
10-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Mirran Crusader seems decent. Better initial gain than Stillmoon Cavalier.

How do you feel about Sulfuric Vortex in this deck?

Given that I dropped batterskull, maybe, to offset Swords to Plowshares and pick away at them, but it certainly seems very slow and potentially harmful. Jitte can't give us life back and if you run batterskull, his lifelink is quite nice.

from Cairo
10-30-2011, 06:18 PM
I could see Sulfuric Vortex in the Sb against control and I suppose Tendrils. Versus fast agro and probably most midrange decks it seems slow and doesn't apply enough pressure.

Out of curiosity what are people Sbing for this deck these days? Last page has been all 60 card lists.

Last I had was:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Dark Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin

KobeBryan
10-30-2011, 07:47 PM
My meta has LOTS of reanimators/dredge

2 extirpates
2 faerie macrebe
1 tormod's crypt
4 red elemental blasts
2 ethersworn cannonists
2 engineered explosives
2 diabolic edict

Mr. Safety
10-31-2011, 07:13 AM
I could see Sulfuric Vortex in the Sb against control and I suppose Tendrils. Versus fast agro and probably most midrange decks it seems slow and doesn't apply enough pressure.

This is what I was thinking. I wasn't suggesting it for maindeck, but rather as a source of inevitability in the control/combo matchups.

I was thinking in the aggro matchup it would be decent as well, allowing you to Swords for :w: and no lifegain. It turns off Batterskull, but it allows you to advance the game while you pick off their threats. I see quite a bit of aggro on MWS, enough to make Engineered Explosives a maindeck inclusion and sideboarded Firespout.

ThoSha
11-01-2011, 06:14 PM
Hey guys! How would you think that Champion of the Parish would fit into this deck? I thought about a build moving Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK into the SB, making room for 21 Creatures with a Human theme. The first thing that went into my eye by checking this deck out was that it consisted of Human creatures only except the SFMs ofc. Would anyone give him a try?

Kich867
11-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Hey guys! How would you think that Champion of the Parish would fit into this deck? I thought about a build moving Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK into the SB, making room for 21 Creatures with a Human theme. The first thing that went into my eye by checking this deck out was that it consisted of Human creatures only except the SFMs ofc. Would anyone give him a try?

If you rep out the search function, we discussed that card briefly previously. I think the overall consensus was it was too slow and needs to be played early, I feel if you wanted a creature like that Figure of Destiny would generally be better.

I can however, test it later tonight and post my findings, I'll try a more creature centric build like you suggested.

from Cairo
11-01-2011, 09:36 PM
I think the overall consensus was it was too slow and needs to be played early, I feel if you wanted a creature like that Figure of Destiny would generally be better.

Totally. The thought crossed my mind as well, but he's a horrendous top deck and offers no utility, and even when he's in your opening 7 if MoR or Grim are as well he's competing against better drops that you want to get active.

Mr. Safety
11-02-2011, 09:57 AM
Totally. The thought crossed my mind as well, but he's a horrendous top deck and offers no utility, and even when he's in your opening 7 if MoR or Grim are as well he's competing against better drops that you want to get active.

I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

from Cairo
11-02-2011, 12:45 PM
I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

I was talking about Champion of the Parish being bad in the deck. ThoSha mentioned it, and Kish867 replied saying FoD is "generally better", and I agreed with "Totally...". I think between Grim, Mom, Top, and discard/removal - there isn't a strong need for another 1cc guy, for a mid game card I still feel Mirran Crusader beats out competition (FoD, Avenger, etc.).

Mr. Safety
11-02-2011, 02:51 PM
I was talking about Champion of the Parish being bad in the deck. ThoSha mentioned it, and Kish867 replied saying FoD is "generally better", and I agreed with "Totally...". I think between Grim, Mom, Top, and discard/removal - there isn't a strong need for another 1cc guy, for a mid game card I still feel Mirran Crusader beats out competition (FoD, Avenger, etc.).

Gotcha. I agree, MC is pretty badass and outclasses all of the mentioned options. I still have a somewhat soft-spot for Serra Avenger...only because of the flying and vigilance factors. She's a house when equipped, and still a decent 3-power clock unequipped.

Kich867
11-02-2011, 02:52 PM
I respectfully disagree...I think he's a decent top-deck in the late game. You typically don't have mana issues at that stage in the game. Early game, Figure fights for the same timing as other (better) tempo-oriented plays you could be making.

I wouldn't suggest more than 3 Figure of Destiny, and 2 is probably closer to right. This is just my opinon.

I'd be curious about Serra Avenger, actually. It seems like a much better threat than Figure of Destiny and lands in the same 'time zone' that you would want Figure. Thoughts?

I tested Serra Avenger extensively with mixed results. When you see her in your opening hand, not being able to play her until turn 4 is actually quite cumbersome. She won't be attacking until turn 5, which sucks. When she's on the field, she's quite good. With an equipment, she can effectively attack and defend simultaneously which is awesome. But the lack of being able to play her turns 1-3 is hurtful.

The more I play TI I do feel the pains of not having legitimate protection (prevention != protection) or legitimate beaters. This is something that bothers me greatly, as is not having a legitimate beater.

We don't run any creatures that are outside of bolt range except for possibly batterskull and he's quite slow, we effectively play him turn 3, but only if SFM doesn't die / BS doesn't get cliqued out of our hand.

We run what is effectively a mid-range control strategy with no protection, only disruption and removal, so we need threats that are harder to deal with. I'm going to try taking the deck into a very different direction and playtest it for a few days, I may have a brief first-impression report tonight after playing some cockatrice with it.

We'll see what happens.

Mr. Safety
11-02-2011, 04:12 PM
I may be speaking heresy here, but if that's your impression (one I agree with) then it's time to drop Bob and play Tombstalker. Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood can create some card draw for you, and has a much more immediate effect on the game. Playing TI in modern, I opted for Tombstalker early on instead of Bob...because of the prevalence of Grove/P-Fires, Grim Lavamancer, and zoo's cheap removals.

I suppose Rebuff the Wicked or Dawn Charm could be used to protect your threats...but blah, bad cards.

ThoSha
11-02-2011, 04:53 PM
I see your thoughts on Champion of the Parish, but i wouldn't run Figure of Destiny either. Duress is just fine i guess.

On protection, i played Apostle's Blessing to great success in my Boros deck, i think it could also have a home in here. It basically reads: [1], counter target removal spell, you lose 2 life.

Mr. Safety
11-02-2011, 08:41 PM
I am mildly curious about Mana Tithe...the problem is the neccessity of black early in the game. Still, fetching a Scrubland shouldn't be a problem so you can either play Thoughtsieze proactively or Mana Tithe reactively. The other problem is that it sucks late game. The surprise factor has something to it, though...because I don't think many opponents are afraid to tap-out against TI.

from Cairo
11-02-2011, 09:41 PM
A couple other possibilities for dealing with removal or getting our utility guys active would be running Aether Vial. Giving us the ability to vial out Grim or MoR during end step and reducing the window of opportunity for the opponent to Bolt or StP them before they get at least one activation.

On the Apostle's Blessing / Rebuff the Wicked side of things there's also Shining Shoal or Reverent Mantra that could be considered if the list is pretty White heavy.

Mr. Safety
11-03-2011, 07:37 AM
A couple other possibilities for dealing with removal or getting our utility guys active would be running Aether Vial. Giving us the ability to vial out Grim or MoR during end step and reducing the window of opportunity for the opponent to Bolt or StP them before they get at least one activation.

On the Apostle's Blessing / Rebuff the Wicked side of things there's also Shining Shoal or Reverent Mantra that could be considered if the list is pretty White heavy.

Could you do me a favor and just call her Mom? I've been scratching my head for a couple minutes to find out what MoR is...I had to actually look back in the thread, lol. I'm just used to hearing her called Mom is all.

Vial is a good opportunity, and one that supports Bob better. If Vial is used, it makes Serra Avenger quite a bit better as an aggressive drop that dodges the turn 4 stipulation (potential for turn 3 with Vial, and avoids the WW in her cost)

With Vial, I think a creature suite like this would work well:

4x Mother of Runes
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Serra Avenger
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mirran Crusader
3x Vampire Nighthawk

jlagrav
11-03-2011, 10:03 AM
With Vial, I think a creature suite like this would work well:

4x Mother of Runes
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Serra Avenger
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mirran Crusader
3x Vampire Nighthawk

No SFM? So would you cut the equipment package all together? With Vial I think this deck might also be able to take advantage of Magus of the Moon, you can use Vial to keep bringing in creatures while they are stuck on only mountains.

yoshencranz
11-03-2011, 10:43 AM
If we start vialing creatures, such as Serra Avenger, up I'd just much rather play Death and Taxes or Deadguy Ale. Those two decks are really awesome, and as soon as we start moving the deck in that direction, it becomes a direct derivative of one of the two mentioned. I'd say this deck is more of a decendant of the Deadguy Ale deck, and if we make moves it should generally be in that direction.

However, I'm interested in making Team Italia better not making it more like Deadguy or D&T.

I've moved away from Finks as my Big threat. I've tested Obliterator some and like it until it gets blasted with Dismember. So yeah, after all our testing, I too agree that Mirran Crusader fits the BIG threat slot the best.

Here is my current Creature base:

4 Bob
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Mom
1 Figure of Destiny

I've been wanting to cut down the number of Mystics in the deck b/c you really only need to find one, so I went down to 3. Mirran Crusader has been BOSS for me being Goyf, Tombstalker, KotR proof.

Kich867
11-03-2011, 03:47 PM
If we start vialing creatures, such as Serra Avenger, up I'd just much rather play Death and Taxes or Deadguy Ale. Those two decks are really awesome, and as soon as we start moving the deck in that direction, it becomes a direct derivative of one of the two mentioned. I'd say this deck is more of a decendant of the Deadguy Ale deck, and if we make moves it should generally be in that direction.

However, I'm interested in making Team Italia better not making it more like Deadguy or D&T.

I've moved away from Finks as my Big threat. I've tested Obliterator some and like it until it gets blasted with Dismember. So yeah, after all our testing, I too agree that Mirran Crusader fits the BIG threat slot the best.

Here is my current Creature base:

4 Bob
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Mom
1 Figure of Destiny

I've been wanting to cut down the number of Mystics in the deck b/c you really only need to find one, so I went down to 3. Mirran Crusader has been BOSS for me being Goyf, Tombstalker, KotR proof.

I would drop the figure of destiny for either another mom or crusader, FOD is very unimpressive, having only one seems kind of on the useless side. Another mom would add protection and power, whereas the FOD doesn't actually do anything.

Mr. Safety
11-04-2011, 09:05 AM
No SFM? So would you cut the equipment package all together? With Vial I think this deck might also be able to take advantage of Magus of the Moon, you can use Vial to keep bringing in creatures while they are stuck on only mountains.

DOH! I've been drinking that retard coffee again...

I was actually wracking my brain for the last 3 creatures thinking 'What goes good with Mystic/equips?' and I put in 3 Nighthawks. In the process, I forgot to add Mystic. Herp derp... take the 3 Nighthawks out and put in 3 Mystics, and the creature suite works well.

I saw someone post about Magus of the Moon...that sounds like hawt tech with Vial. Sideboard potential against greedy mana-bases? (Team America, Rock, Zoo, etc.)

jlagrav
11-04-2011, 10:17 AM
DOH! I've been drinking that retard coffee again...

I was actually wracking my brain for the last 3 creatures thinking 'What goes good with Mystic/equips?' and I put in 3 Nighthawks. In the process, I forgot to add Mystic. Herp derp... take the 3 Nighthawks out and put in 3 Mystics, and the creature suite works well.

I saw someone post about Magus of the Moon...that sounds like hawt tech with Vial. Sideboard potential against greedy mana-bases? (Team America, Rock, Zoo, etc.)

I've been playing with Magus of the Moon in my b/r midrange deck and it just wrecks everything. RUG, BUG, Maverck, and more only play one or two basics. Even against decks like fish it at least shuts off the mutivaults.

But yea in order to run him in this deck we would HAVE to use vial and make this deck a lot more aggro and less 'team italia'

jlagrav
11-04-2011, 11:00 AM
OK so here is what I'm thinking for an aggro TI



Creatures - 21
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mother of Runes
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Vampire Nighthawk

Spells - 18
4 Aether Vial
3 Vindicate
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands - 21
4 Scrublands
3 Badlands
2 Plateau
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained More
2 Arid Mesa



I went for basics over Wastelands to make a more stable man a base and so we can cast through our own Magus.

SoFI gives Mirran lots of protection and draws, SoLS brings back our guys and recovers life lost from Bob, Jitte is just awesome.

I wish there was space for Swords to plowshares I think the deck is fine without it.

I'm not sure about Hmyn, I like it how it just destroys hands, but I might rather go with Thoughsieze, its easier to cast and you can choose what they discard, but it costs life and they only discard one card.

What do you guys think?

yoshencranz
11-04-2011, 12:03 PM
I like idea of a more aggro version, but when i look at it, it just seems like a bad Zoo deck. There are no creatures that can go over the top like Goyf for Aggro TI to abuse. there is not enought removal to burn a path for your dudes, as well, we dont have Islandwalk. I may be completely wrong on this though.

Also, Vial decks are better with Wastelands and tempo disruption cards to "get ahead". Hymn + Vial is a proven strategy but those have always come with a full suite of Wastelands and Vindicates.

Mr. Safety
11-07-2011, 09:32 AM
While I agree on a fundamental level, I think the Vial plan has a lot of merit. I do agree on using Wasteland...maybe not 4, but at least 2-3. If you land Magus, it becomes a mountain. No problem, it can feed burn spells or Grim Lavamancer just fine. It doesn't even hurt your strategy, but can be a way to disrupt your opponent's mana-base before you land Magus (turn 3 at the earliest.)

Jacemindbreak
11-22-2011, 11:55 AM
How do you guys feel about Abyssal Persecutor for the big beater? Then change IOK or Duress for Cabal.

ceustice
11-27-2011, 03:18 PM
How do you guys feel about Abyssal Persecutor for the big beater? Then change IOK or Duress for Cabal.

I don"t think this deck need Abyssal Persecuter. My friends and I just put a TI deck together to test with and against. We started with the list Adam Barnello had in his article not to long ago.
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Confidant
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
3 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon

We've made a few changes to the deck but it is a pure house. We dropped all the Hymn to Tourachs for another IoK, Ranger of Eos, Sword of Feast and Famine, and a Swamp.

Jacemindbreak
12-20-2011, 08:50 PM
check out the deck that recently placed in my local meta.


Andrew Genova - Team Italia (7th)

2x Badlands

4x Wasteland

4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Thoughtseize

4x Vindicate

4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Sword of Feast and Famine

1x Basilisk Collar

4x Dark Confidant

4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Grim Lavamancer

1x Batterskull

1x Plateau

4x Marsh Flats

2x Arid Mesa

1x Ranger of Eos

1x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Bloodstained Mire

2x Mother of Runes

2x Inquistion of Kozilek

1x Mountain

1x Plains

1x Swamp

4x Scrublands

2x Lighting Bolt



Sideboard

1x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Nihil Spell Bomb

1x Red Elemental Blast

4x Pyroblast

1x Sword of Fire and Ice

3x Extirpate

2x Diabolic Edict

1x Lighting


how does this deck stop maverick?

from Cairo
12-20-2011, 11:02 PM
how does this deck stop maverick?

It has 4 Grim and 2 Lightning Bolt for the little guys and 4 Plow, 4 Vindicate and a Basilisk Collar for Knight of the Reliquary. Confidant and Hymn for card advantage. Keeping them off of Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary is important.

Team Italia's unstable manabase given color requirements I think is it's weakest element. Playing Maverick the element they're best positioned to attack is the mana base. Their other priority has to be keeping Grim Lavamancer off the board.

In regards to the list posted I think Ranger of Eos would be better as Elspeth, or alternatively pushing the Jitte to the main seems like a stronger option.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-20-2011, 11:08 PM
I can't imagine this deck has problems with Merfolk, so I wonder at the maindeck Batterskull over something that's relevant if SFM gets removed, like, say, Jitte. Or even a Grafted Wargear seems like it could be good to beef up otherwise unimpressive nerds like Lavamancer and Bob when you just want to beat down.

KobeBryan
12-21-2011, 02:40 PM
How does italia do serious damage to the opposing player? It seems it will only do some chip damage until the opposing player is dead. Sure there is the batterskull, but if that is gone, there wont' be much left to put up a fight.

yoshencranz
12-21-2011, 05:00 PM
I'm glad to see this deck top16 the last Open.

For my build of Team Italia, most of the damage done is with a guy suited up with Sword of Fire and Ice or a Batterskull. You'd be surprised how quickly damage adds up with the extra two that Sword of Fire/Ice does.

Once you get past the early game having stripped them of their hand or crippled their manabase you can equip a guy with relative ease. Elspeth also goes a long way to getting a faster clock with his Divine Transformation ability.

Bob+Sword of F/I = 6 damage+draw a card.

There will be games where the opponent has killed your swords/batterskull and those games are gruelingly long but in my playing, those games are far less than ones with equipment. Also for this purpose, I've been playing 3 Kitchen Finks main as well. I like them a lot as they are pretty resilient (except the obv - StP/Path) and generally give you 2 dudes to equip with.

I've also adopted GFab's new manabase as I've been wanting to add basics to the deck for awhile now.

Here is my current list:

4 Scrubland
4 Badland
1 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flat
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plain

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kitchen Finks

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Vindicate

1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Darkblast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Mother of Runes

I'm glad that the Pros/Semi Pro's have embraced Lilliana of the Veil in Team Italia. gFabs has been running 2 and I've been advocating it for a long time now. Darkblast out of the board has been great and works so well with Lilliana. The Lightning Bolts in the Side serve a few purposes: 1) having 8/9 1cc removal spells is really helpful vs the new wave of DelverTempo decks. 2) Bolt is better than StP vs. non-blue combo if only for the fact that combos can win without creatures.

KobeBryan
12-21-2011, 05:02 PM
is 1 darkblast in the board enough?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
12-21-2011, 06:10 PM
If you're not using Kitchen Finks for life gain or because you have a particular problem with aggro decks, and you just want two bodies to equip, I would suggest Blade Splicer, as StP and PtE are a Hell of a lot more common than Wrath or Deed these days. Also better against Jace.

Or you could go full hog and build your manabase to support Spectral Procession... probably not though.

Aggro_zombies
12-21-2011, 08:27 PM
Is Midnight Haunting better? It's an instant and has easier mana requirements for the cost of one less Spirit.

yoshencranz
12-22-2011, 10:36 AM
I havent thought about Blade Splicer at all and it sounds really cool. Going in my deck tonight!

yoshencranz
12-22-2011, 10:41 AM
@Avatar: I've found that with the other 1cc removal spells, 1 Darkblast is a really good complementary spell. Its shouldnt be your primary removal spell, kind of like how Wring Flesh is a nice complementary removal spell to DoomBlade/Go for the Throat. You dont want to run too many b/c the dredging can hurt sometimes and b/c this deck doesn't recur from the graveyard. I can see upping the count and going with a Sword of Light/Shadow, but warping my removal package to accomodate Darkblast seems kind of much. I like it when I draw it, but if I dont? I just Stp or Lighnting Bolt those delvers, Nacatl, Hierarchs.

door
01-20-2012, 07:02 PM
Hello, guys.
I was wandering, why the deck that looks so strong does not appear in any tournaments lately.
From my point of view it should be strong against blue decks with all those discard spells and pyroblasts, against creature decks with all those mancers and removal and should not loose easily to combo, having 8 discard cards maindeck. The weak part is about manabase, opponent's mother of runes which came out of sickness and.. well... smth else that does not let it reach tops recently.

So I decided to check how it works. I looked through every list on the Council and liked the one (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7319&iddeck=53278) from ScG Charlotte. It seems that Gerard Fabiano utilized the strongest cards in RBW colors, which suppose more control strategy. In my opinion the versions with figure of destiny and/or vial and other small creatures should loose in speed or quality to other classic aggro decks, e.g. maverick, zoo, deadguy where either their creatures are bigger, or our removal is not enough.

I revised Fabiano's list slightly, adding moxen, which provide faster starts as well as a waste-proof manasource. Also I moved one Liliana to SB and added Ajani as there often appear some heavy control decks like Pox in our meta. I cut 1 mystic, because 4 mystics for 3 equips is too much and 1 land, because I didn't find what else to cut.. :frown: But I belive it is worth having 2 moxen. Everything else looks solid and in its proper place.
So the list looks like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ajani Vengeant

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox

1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Perish
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: RED
2 Purify the Grave
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre/Pithing Needle

As you can see, I rebuilt the SB as well. Perhaps I will add the second Needle or Enlightened Tutor in future, but it needs more testing. CoP helps against UR delver decks, which appear quite often.
So I played two small local tournies, and results were 2-2-1 the first time, loosing to BG Nic Fit, which appears to be a tough match if you don't StP their Explorer in early game and then get pernicious deeded. And the second loose was against UR delver, where I had 1 land in both games and mulled into 1 land again. I had a tie with BGW loam-Pox, and I guess it's not so bad..
The second tourny went 4-0 for me, and I decided to post this :smile: I played against UR painter, merfolks, affinity, mystic-bant and won every time relatively easy except when Kira hit the table in the Merfolks match. Affinity showed me 2 frogmites+master of etherium 7-7 on the second turn, and I was a bit frightened, but the affinity player lost that game having only one permanent under his control, which was Darksteel Citadel :tongue: The fact is that the deck is mercyless, with that amount of removal, also being strong in late game, thanks to planeswalkers, and sometimed just detonates from the first turns, thanks to chrome moxen.
But I had to play double-cautious against wasteland decks, because loosing the right land could ruin the entire game with all that double-color costs. Sometimes I had to loose some extra turns/life for an efficient blow-back after several turns, as it was in games against bant and merfolks.
The card that I doubt most of all is Basilisk Collar in Sb, which I copied from early lists. It does nothing if I don't have Lavamancer and even with Mancer it often is an overkill. 4 StPs+4 Vindy+ 2 Lily are enough for answering fatties like KoTR and Tarmo. Depending on local meta I would suggest the second COP:RED, or Pithing Needle, or some artifact hate, or grave hate.
The painter was not a problem. The strategy to discard/destroy his combo pieces and after that keep him short-landed was winning.

Thanks for sharing experience, thoughts or any opinions.

KobeBryan
01-20-2012, 10:02 PM
My brother plays this deck. He said the problem with this deck is mainly to hose merfolk. The deck doesn't drop anything big at once so each turn you are doing 3-4 damage a turn. This gives the opponent time to build up and fight back

Kich867
01-21-2012, 01:39 AM
The reason it doesn't show up in tournaments that much is because, as you noticed, it looks really really good on paper, and then you start playing it against decks that can actually do shit, and you realize that it's really not very good. There's very little synergy between the cards, you rapidly wish you didn't splash red as it offers almost nothing.

The deck hoses Merfolk yea, but, so does Maverick.

ghostfire86
01-24-2012, 10:36 PM
Ok so I play TI and it plays well against a very diverse meta. If you wish to deck bash get off the site and play yugioh.

Ive not ever been thrilled about the use of Liliana in this deck only due to her +1 ability effects you negatively as well. Unless your in top deck mode its horrible for this deck type that has little to no grave manipulation depending on build.

Also, I have not seen any good coming out of running wastelands in this color sensitive deck. If the worry is other wastelands in your meta then cut the non basic lands down and increase the basic. Wasteland will only slow you down.

To me Team Italia truely is a hybrid deck incorporating 3 other deck types best features: Boros, Junk, and Stoneblade.

My current decklist is as follows:

4 Figure of destiny
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Lightning Helix
4 Vindicate

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
4 Plateau
1 Badland
2 Karakas
2 Swamp
1 Plain
1 Mountain
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa

Sideboard (Note: My sideboard is based off of my local meta)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Planar Void
3 Hide/Seek
2 Perish
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jotun Grunt

yoshencranz
01-25-2012, 01:39 PM
@Ghostfire. I can see how you may not like Lilliana in this deck but that looks to be the case because your build doesnt have Sensei's Top or my new tech seen below. In your build, it seems completely reasonable to not play Lilliana at all.

My current build that i look to play this weekend, if I can find the time.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Squadron Hawk

1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Vindicate

2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

4 Scrubland
4 Badland
1 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flat
4 Wasteland
1 Plain
1 Swamp

SB: Changes a lot and depending on meta.

I've been testing Squadron hawk lately and have been pleasantly surprised with it. Its great fodder for Lilliana and just a good beater that can carry a sword well. The original build that Gerard Fabiano built had lots of one drops and a single Ranger of Eos. This take with Squadron Hawks reminds me a lot of that first build. It gives you lots of gas later on and is another good shuffle with the Top. I've been trying to find room for another top but the deck list is getting kind of tight.

I've tried Mirran Crusader, Blade Splicer, Kitchen Finks, Phyrexian Obliterator, Mother of Runes in place of Squadron Hawks. All are decent but I really love getting 4 cards for one and the Hawks give my guys the much needed evasion. I often had to find my Elspeth to Divine Transformation a Bob or Batterskull for the victory so its good to have a creature that can reliably get a hit in with a sword. I liked Mirran Crusader, Blade Splicer, and Kitchen Finks, but they just made my deck too 3 drop heavy between the Vindicates, Lilliana and the occasional casting a Sword. If I were to replace the Hawks, I'd most likely go back to the Mom's. They are just as good in this deck as they are in Maverick and Death and Taxes.

One card i'd really like to work with from Dark Ascension is Lingering Souls. It looks like it could be really good with Lilliana and vs. Delvers as well.

capitacom
01-26-2012, 06:35 AM
Your list only plays 3 red cards, which largely defeats the purpose of splashing red. If you play red you should at least play lightning bolt as well as basilisk collar to make use of your grim lavamancers. Fabiano's original list played basilisk collar, playsets of grim lavamancer and lightning bolt and 3 figure of destiny + sideboard. For splashing red to be worth it you really need to play a similar amount of red cards, otherwise playing deadguy is a much better choice.

yoshencranz
01-26-2012, 02:53 PM
@Capitacom: I totally agree. Normally I do play Bolts but lately I've come across lots of Knight of the Reliquary and Goyfs. I've related the Bolts to my side for now. I have also thought about just making the switch to Deadguy too. The Basilisk Collar though nice, has never really felt right in the deck. It was always a bit too late or I'd much rather be casting a relevant spell.

ghostfire86
01-27-2012, 12:58 AM
Judging from current meta I have been thinking of trying a new form of TI by using Aether Vial and Imperial Recruiter. It would look something like this:

Artifact (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull/ Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Creature (18)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Imperial recruiter
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells (14)
4 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Land (21)

This set up has no burn unfortunately, but will allow you to search for your answers to your opponent's deck while also controling their hand in early game and board in mid to late game. I had to cut the burn aspect in order to add in this component into the deck design. Even running only 4 red cards it still is a massive component to the deck overall.

The use of Imperial Recruiter lets you fetch your needed protection creature whether it is SC or MC.

SFM lets you fetch the corrosponding Sword for the opposite protection needed not coverd by the creature.

Dark Confidant of course for card draw

Basilisk Collar or Batterskull would be prime choice for this deck and would help negate the life lose from Bob.

MoR comes in to protect Bob, and SFM for optimal use.

I have not play tested this set up yet. I am still hacking the idea around in my head. The mana curve is much higher than the current form, but based on the fact that big beats and board control should not have proper effect on my field I am satisfied (as long as this works).

Ideas?

TheShaun
03-29-2012, 10:23 AM
How about Lingering Souls? Seems like a good defensive card when needed, and they can grab your equipment much better than a Confidant or Lavamancer.

nedleeds
03-29-2012, 10:55 AM
The reason it doesn't show up in tournaments that much is because, as you noticed, it looks really really good on paper, and then you start playing it against decks that can actually do shit, and you realize that it's really not very good. There's very little synergy between the cards, you rapidly wish you didn't splash red as it offers almost nothing.

The deck hoses Merfolk yea, but, so does Maverick.

It doesn't look good on paper either when all your men are small and bad in combat. For the people who are willing to play WW spells in their lists, why not play Mirran Crusader? Or even Soltari Priest? Just something that can evade and deal damage. A deck with 12 small wizards just isn't going to win without equipment.

Mirrislegend
03-29-2012, 11:20 AM
How about Lingering Souls? Seems like a good defensive card when needed, and they can grab your equipment much better than a Confidant or Lavamancer.

Highly agreed. My in-development list:

3 Mother of Runes
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
1 ?

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Bskull
1 SoFI
1 Jitte

22 Land

I'd love to fit Hymn and Vindicate in here somewhere. Please note that I built this to beat Maverick, while maintaining game against Stoneblade and Thresh.

Fade
03-29-2012, 12:27 PM
Highly agreed. My in-development list:

3 Mother of Runes
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
1 ?

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Bskull
1 SoFI
1 Jitte

22 Land

I'd love to fit Hymn and Vindicate in here somewhere. Please note that I built this to beat Maverick, while maintaining game against Stoneblade and Thresh.

Mother of Runes doesn't seem too good in this list. I mean what are you really trying to protect with it? Throwing some Aether Vials in this list with some Serra Avengers might be worth considering or maybe some Tombstalkers even though they don't play well with Grim Lavamancer.

I also don't really see how this game plan is going to beat Maverick. They play bigger creatures and they have pridemage for you equipment. I guess you could try to burn them out but if that's your gameplan why not just play burn?

TheShaun
03-30-2012, 03:33 PM
Mother of Runes doesn't seem too good in this list. I mean what are you really trying to protect with it? Throwing some Aether Vials in this list with some Serra Avengers might be worth considering or maybe some Tombstalkers even though they don't play well with Grim Lavamancer.

I also don't really see how this game plan is going to beat Maverick. They play bigger creatures and they have pridemage for you equipment. I guess you could try to burn them out but if that's your gameplan why not just play burn?


Multiple Perish in the board, 4 StP, 3 Vindicate, 4 Lavamancer, is the answer for Maverick. I agree with Mother of Runes though, I don't think that the creatures in this deck are individually powerful or plentiful enough to make the deck really want to play her. I've been toying with a build, I'll post it once I think I have it balanced.

One other topic point I've been debating: Does this deck actually want Wasteland?? Why or why not?

Fade
03-30-2012, 05:04 PM
Multiple Perish in the board, 4 StP, 3 Vindicate, 4 Lavamancer, is the answer for Maverick. I agree with Mother of Runes though, I don't think that the creatures in this deck are individually powerful or plentiful enough to make the deck really want to play her. I've been toying with a build, I'll post it once I think I have it balanced.

One other topic point I've been debating: Does this deck actually want Wasteland?? Why or why not?

The pre board answers are not that impressive. If a mother of runes resolves it nulls all your answers. As I said before you should consider some amount of zealous persecutions as it is an all around good card and board sweeper against their nobles, mothers, dryad arbor, and scrub rangers.

Wasteland could be could as a 2 of.

Koby
03-30-2012, 05:30 PM
With Vindicate in the list, I could see eschewing any Wastelands for better consistent manabase. Vindicate could handle Maze of Ith which puts a hamper on equipment tricks.

Would Chrome Mox be outside the possibility for this deck to accelerate as a work-around for Vial?

TheShaun
03-31-2012, 05:20 PM
I do feel that some acceleration/color fixing would help, I've given some thought to both Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond. They each seem decent, I think Chrome is probably a bit better since the deck can't get the lands back via something like Loam. Probably not 4 of them though, also something that is terrible after the opening hand.

I agree that my Maverick answers were post-board, and that yes, Mother of Runes is a big pain. But realistically the thing that she forces you into is a 2-for-1, unless you can get her while summoning sick. The deck has so many 2-for-1s in the positive manner that it will probably not hurt too much to blow 2 spells killing her. Jitte does take care of her with only 1 card, though it does depend on a creature getting a hit in somewhere

Demonic_Attorney
10-27-2012, 04:40 PM
Wasteland could be could as a 2 of.


Wasteland is definitely a four of in this deck now. Perhaps you could get away with three; however, two is manifestly insufficient. The synergy that Wasteland has with Vindicate and Hymn to Tourach combined with the ridiculous amount of non-basic lands being played by every tier one deck in the format, it is very hard to justify not maxing out on Wasteland in this type of deck.

Stuuch
10-28-2012, 05:18 AM
I went to a 29 player tournament with this deck a week ago. Finished 9th and just missed top 8 because I had the worst breakers. The deck was suprisingly good and I think I will play it again. Won Goblins and White Stax. Draw against Nick Fit and lost to a Reanimator deck. Got one Bye too. Only thing I did not like that much were two Tidehollow Scullers I had in my main deck. I wish those would be somthing else every time I had them in my hand. Any suggestions for other creatures that are good in this deck? I had 4 Bobs 4 Lavamancers 3 Stoneforge and 2 Scullers. 2 Thalia also from the board but I dont think I want Thalia in my main either.

Demonic_Attorney
10-30-2012, 01:27 AM
I went to a 29 player tournament with this deck a week ago. Finished 9th and just missed top 8 because I had the worst breakers. The deck was suprisingly good and I think I will play it again. Won Goblins and White Stax. Draw against Nick Fit and lost to a Reanimator deck. Got one Bye too. Only thing I did not like that much were two Tidehollow Scullers I had in my main deck. I wish those would be somthing else every time I had them in my hand. Any suggestions for other creatures that are good in this deck? I had 4 Bobs 4 Lavamancers 3 Stoneforge and 2 Scullers. 2 Thalia also from the board but I dont think I want Thalia in my main either.

Well I like 4x Confidant, 3x Grim and 3x Mystic and than that usually leaves room for another creature x2. Tidehollow Scullers is a popular choice right now for that slot; however, Hero of Bladehold and Kitchen Finks are also viable options.

Stuuch
10-30-2012, 05:33 AM
I tested with the Hero a while ago and that sucked even more than Sculler. Finks could be good but the mana cost of double white kind of bothers me because I usually want BB for Hymn and Lilly as fast as possible. I thought about testing Falkenrath Aristocrat and Olivia Voldaren also. They probably are not good enough for legacy. Maybe we just have to stick with Sculler for a while and hope the next set will bring somthing good for this deck. I really want to keep the mana curve as low as possible.

ceustice
10-30-2012, 05:24 PM
I've never liked Sculler in the list some friends and I have been running Thalia in the main and it's been good. But I'm now thinking about maybe Deathrite Shaman main, I'd also like to run Bitterblossom or Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy. I'll let you guys know how my testing goes I think I'll be rebuilding this soon.

Demonic_Attorney
10-31-2012, 12:17 AM
I suggest using 2x Lingering Souls. In the context of this deck Lingering Souls has a lot more synergy with the other cards. Bitterblossom with Bob is too life intensive and isn't as explosive and strong as Lingering Souls.

Stuuch
10-31-2012, 04:24 AM
If you test Shaman please post results. It can be a little akward because we already have lavamancers but then again he can eat opponents grave too. I think the mana ability wont be so relevant because we dont have any expensive bombs. Liliana on turn two is the best we can do with him. The other two abilites may be nice though.

I have to agree that Lingering Souls is very good in this deck.

Megadeus
12-15-2012, 05:12 PM
Currently watching Team Italia on cam at the Invitational. Has everyone forgotten about this awesome deck?

godofallu
12-16-2012, 02:29 AM
Currently watching Team Italia on cam at the Invitational. Has everyone forgotten about this awesome deck?

Yeah I saw that match as well. Played a few games earlier today with a GR sleigh-ish deck and dominated a poor WW/Death and Taxes list with lavamancers. Was reminded of this deck and decided to make a list of my own when I got home. I'll share it in case anyone wants to try out this archetype, or knows this archetype enough to correct my first try list.

3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Bitterblossom
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Faithless Looting
1 Vindicate

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

I like the concept of Lilliana/Faithless Looting + Lingering Souls AND Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar. Both of these things may be too cute though, but they do seem to go along together with some synergy. I'm not sure if a deck like this has enough of a clock to beat a combo deck game 1. Even with discard.

Might try out an all in Zombardment type plan with the discard in the side and add in Bloodghast, Gravecrawler and Goblin Bombardment. I generally dislike decks that have terrible matchups g1 though.

Barook
12-16-2012, 05:40 AM
I like the concept of Lilliana/Faithless Looting + Lingering Souls AND Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar. Both of these things may be too cute though, but they do seem to go along together with some synergy. I'm not sure if a deck like this has enough of a clock to beat a combo deck game 1. Even with discard.

Might try out an all in Zombardment type plan with the discard in the side and add in Bloodghast, Gravecrawler and Goblin Bombardment. I generally dislike decks that have terrible matchups g1 though.
Why would you go with a even more GY-intensive plan in a format where DRS is quite popular right now?

If you need a decent clock, Mirran Crusader might be decent right now. Combines very well with equipment (e.g. with Collar, you dominate everything in combat) and his protections are quite useful in a format full of green fat and Abrupt Decay.

Crust
01-09-2013, 03:43 PM
I am toying around with ideas for a Team Italia and I was inspired by the posts above. I think Mirran Crusader is a house right now. Abrupt decay is all over the place and Goyf is popular again. Specially in combination with Stoneforge package. I also want to include Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy and Faithless Looting.
This is a start.

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 mirran crusader
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 cabal therapy
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Faithless Looting
3 lightning bolt

Comments?

Water_Wizard
01-10-2013, 12:58 AM
I am toying around with ideas for a Team Italia and I was inspired by the posts above. I think Mirran Crusader is a house right now. Abrupt decay is all over the place and Goyf is popular again. Specially in combination with Stoneforge package. I also want to include Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy and Faithless Looting.
This is a start.

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 mirran crusader
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 cabal therapy
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Faithless Looting
3 lightning bolt

Comments?

I would add a 4th SFM because you probably want a SFF in the board and in the event that you want to run all 3 equipment, it is nice to have 1 more SFM than equipment.

I think Mirran Crusader is a 2 or 3 of. If you really expect a lot of BUG, then run 3. If not, 2 is enough.

I would run 3 Liliana. She's really strong right now and fits very well with this deck.

I would also run 4 Lightning Bolt. I could see Lingering Souls or STP as a 3-of.

I would try to add SDT to your list, as it is really good with DC.

ahg113
01-10-2013, 07:38 AM
Would aether vial make sense in this deck as well? And what kind of sideboard strategy is typically used?

Crust
01-10-2013, 08:21 AM
I think u haveto have more creatures to make good use of aether vial.

SB I dont know yet.

ahg113
01-11-2013, 03:54 PM
What advantages does team italia have to further it's end game?

I play a homebrew with the same colors, that ports into a typical team italia deck but first plays humility, goblin trenches and isochron scepter (lightning helix, bolt, chant effects) as main wincons. It's not that good, but it's mine, for whatever the cards are worth.

With a more conventional italia list, how is the deck benefiting from adding red and eschewing blue? Stoneblade/esper is a more popular, if not successful deck.

godofallu
01-11-2013, 09:16 PM
I updated my list and have been having surprising success with it. You guys can find it in my sig if you're interested.

The nice thing is grim lavamancer is such a beating when almost every deck runs deathrite shamans. The card advantage you get from just shocking things away over and over adds up, and tokens plus equipment is still a very grindy and hard to combat strategy if the opponents give you enough time. Even opposing tarmogoyfs tend to die early game since you can just remove the 2 things in your yard in order to shrink them to a killable size.

Crust
01-12-2013, 02:47 AM
I updated my list and have been having surprising success with it. You guys can find it in my sig if you're interested.

The nice thing is grim lavamancer is such a beating when almost every deck runs deathrite shamans. The card advantage you get from just shocking things away over and over adds up, and tokens plus equipment is still a very grindy and hard to combat strategy if the opponents give you enough time. Even opposing tarmogoyfs tend to die early game since you can just remove the 2 things in your yard in order to shrink them to a killable size.

I am intrested to study your list, but exactly where can I find it? Sig?

godofallu
01-12-2013, 05:30 PM
I am intrested to study your list, but exactly where can I find it? Sig?

Signature. That's the little link below every post I make.

Crust
01-14-2013, 12:56 AM
Ok, now I know. It apparently doesn't show on my Iphone so I'll look it up when I get to a computer.

Crust
01-15-2013, 02:45 PM
Ok, now I've seen your deck. It looks good, I like the playset Lingering Souls, I think they're pretty sweet right now, for exampel against Baleful Strix and plainswalkers.
A lot of discard seems good but I wonder if you have i big enough gamewinner. Fabiano tried Hero of Bladehold and that seems good, don't you think you need something to seal the deal?
I saw that you tried the Faithless Looting and I am too in my list. What did you think of them?

godofallu
01-15-2013, 04:41 PM
Ok, now I've seen your deck. It looks good, I like the playset Lingering Souls, I think they're pretty sweet right now, for exampel against Baleful Strix and plainswalkers.
A lot of discard seems good but I wonder if you have i big enough gamewinner. Fabiano tried Hero of Bladehold and that seems good, don't you think you need something to seal the deal?
I saw that you tried the Faithless Looting and I am too in my list. What did you think of them?

The card selection isn't worth the card disadvantage.

Basically I play the list in a very similar fashion to Esperblade. Which is to say a very slow and grindy control deck. If you compare the two decks Italia seems almost overflowing with win conditions in comparison.

Hero of Bladehold is terrible. I suppose I could understand Sorin or Elspeth or Ajani Vengent as a 4 drop though.

PS: You can edit your posts so that you don't double post.

ahg113
01-15-2013, 10:52 PM
The card selection isn't worth the card disadvantage.

Basically I play the list in a very similar fashion to Esperblade. Which is to say a very slow and grindy control deck. If you compare the two decks Italia seems almost overflowing with win conditions in comparison.

Hero of Bladehold is terrible. I suppose I could understand Sorin or Elspeth or Ajani Vengent as a 4 drop though.

PS: You can edit your posts so that you don't double post.

Godofallu's deck list (for reference because my work internet hates TappedOut.com...)


Name (62)

4x Badlands
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Batterskull
1x Bayou
1x Bitterblossom
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Dark Confidant
1x Darkblast
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Lingering Souls
4x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scrubland
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Swamp
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Vindicate
3x Wasteland

Sideboard (13)

1x Ancient Grudge
1x Choke
2x Engineered Plague
1x Forked Bolt
2x Perish
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Timely Reinforcements


Not sure which, but two cards MD belong in the SB...

Since you used Esperblade as a comparison, do you find the discard to be equal/efficient/on par disruption as counterspells?
While I'm a big fan of Hymn, would Cabal Therapy is some number make more sense (with tokens generated for more value)?
How do you manage the difference of card selection with lack of Brainstorms and Ponders.
Because of Bob, would it be worthwhile to have SDT in the deck? To minimize damage taken, improve draws?
How efficient are the miser cards (excluding lands and equipment)? It seems like they'd be unreliable to draw in a game when needed, or occupy dead space otherwise. Including the cards in the sideboard. With a few exceptions, I've felt cards should be in 2s at a minimum to increase the odds of being drawn. With the exception of Dark Blast, the misers seem more extra than critical.

And what are the reasons for the SB options. Aside from a hate of all things blue, what are the tough matchups for the deck that this is answering?

I'm changing my pet deck to this, because it's collecting dust being the suck otherwise.

ahg113
01-15-2013, 10:53 PM
List that I will blind try on Cockatrice, because it's free -


1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Ajani Vengeant
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

godofallu
01-16-2013, 02:19 AM
In all honesty I am not an expert in this deck type. Fairly new to it myself.

I like 5-6 pieces of removal + Liliana. The vindicate/Darkblast is the extra 2 I run at the moment because the less 3 drops for Bob the better, and you really never want 2 darkblasts. Some games you don't even want 1, but the dredge helps lavamancer + shaman. Plus it kills enemy shamans.

My sideboard is just a really generic/basic attempt at hitting most decks. It isn't tuned at all honestly.

I don't like Top much because I generally like to use all my mana every turn. I don't like (but never tried) Hero because it is a creature which will eat removal + terminus + counters ect ect all day long. If I was going to run 4 drops I would start with Sorin. Elspeth is also decent.

Cabal Therapy is sweat except you don't have anything you want to throw away until fairly late in the game. Which is after combo players go off. If we had Gravecrawler or Veteran explorer the card would make sense but I won't toss away a Shaman for a therapy activation. Would like to know how it feels after you play with it a while though.

Crust
01-16-2013, 03:52 PM
My idea of a heavy discard suite is that it is the way to go aggro. Don't know if you agree, but hence my question about the win con. The plainswalker are sweet, havn't played Sorin but I imagine it is to compare with Elspeth. I'm going to testdrive Mirran Crusader. With for example Jitte he's a house. Has anyone some experience with him?

ahg113
01-16-2013, 08:29 PM
So far, I'm loving SDT, it's ability to play nice with Bob, and just improved card selection over all can't be understated.

As far as SB go, Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker were left overs from the other deck. I may keep Phyrexian, but I'm doubting it, Thalia is out, graveyard hate is seriously lacking.

First thought is Relic, to a lesser extent, Surgical, and RiP. Just because, Slaughter Games is reasonable, easily cast, especially with DRS, but it feels to gimmicky to be real. But it works like a boss in dreamland. With only 1, it wouldn't be drawn early enough, with more than 1 it'd just be stupid...
-3 Thalia
+3 Relic
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Surgical
+1 Slaughter Games (I, for some reason, am attracted to bad cards)

Still playing, still thinking.

I'm a fan of Cabal Therapy and Hymn. Right now, IoK is the 61st card and most likely to be cut. I have no problem chucking a creature earlier than wanted if the payoff is there with CT. 1 DRS < 2 Goyfs.

Crust
01-22-2013, 05:36 AM
Now when I'Ve tried the italia colour I really like BWR. And especially this deck. So many cards are two for one. Cabal Therapy, Hymn, Lingering Souls, Stoneforge, Grim Lavamancer and I guess you can count Deathrite, Liliana and Bob. I'll post my list later today.

Crust
01-22-2013, 02:53 PM
This is the list I'm trying right now.

CREATURES (14)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (11)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Faithless Looting
INSTANTS (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau

Stuuch
01-22-2013, 03:04 PM
This is the list I'm trying right now.

CREATURES (14)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (11)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Faithless Looting
INSTANTS (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plateau

You should have one Bayou for Shaman´s green ability to gain life. It may be relevant sometimes. Also the Faithless Looting is somthing I would cut for Vindicates Tops or more creatures. Otherwise looks like a very solid list.

ahg113
01-22-2013, 03:45 PM
So I'm a big fan of the deck, but it's just missing a signature closer. Hero of Bladehold doesn't do it for me. Batterskull isn't always enough.

What reliable closer is there? I'm thinking Elspeth Knight-Errant, (Ajani Vengeant hasn't been too impressive), but I'm not certain. Is there a pro-White, cmc >4 creature with 6 or more toughness (Dismember) worth putting into this deck without destroying the flow?

So close, yet so far away...

Crust
01-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Yeah, the Bayou should probably be there for the life gain. I wonder if one bayou and 4 Deathrite is enough to play som green SB cards like Gaddock Teeg?
Faithless Looting has been good so far. But of course it's is the cards in the list that u naturally question. I'm going to try it for a while and then I'll let you know.

What does your current lists look like?

Crust
01-22-2013, 03:59 PM
So I'm a big fan of the deck, but it's just missing a signature closer. Hero of Bladehold doesn't do it for me. Batterskull isn't always enough.

What reliable closer is there? I'm thinking Elspeth Knight-Errant, (Ajani Vengeant hasn't been too impressive), but I'm not certain. Is there a pro-White, cmc >4 creature with 6 or more toughness (Dismember) worth putting into this deck without destroying the flow?

So close, yet so far away...

What about Abyssal Persecutor. If u play cabal terapy and lilli u should be fine. But of course it lacks prot white. He is black though, thats good if u play hymn and lilli, easier to cast than WW.

godofallu
01-23-2013, 02:06 AM
I have to once again point out that Faithless Looting is pretty bad. It's negative card advantage in a deck that tries to be as grindy as possible.

You guys keep talking about adding a finisher as if a finisher has to be a 4cc card. Or a creature. With Dark Confidant it should be obvious that we don't want many 4 drops. If any. If you want more finishers add bitterblossum.

Crust
01-23-2013, 03:24 AM
I have to once again point out that Faithless Looting is pretty bad. It's negative card advantage in a deck that tries to be as grindy as possible.

You guys keep talking about adding a finisher as if a finisher has to be a 4cc card. Or a creature. With Dark Confidant it should be obvious that we don't want many 4 drops. If any. If you want more finishers add bitterblossum.

With a deck that does not need alot of lands my experience is that u can save one or sometimes two land in your hans to get full value of Faithless Looting. And as u know u can discard Lingering Souls. FL is also a feeder for Grim Lavamancer who eats alot of cards. The flashback won me a game the other day.
So for me it has been pretty good for being a bad card. But as I said, I will test it a bit more to see where it leads.

Crust
01-30-2013, 07:02 AM
Played with my list that I posted above. It was great. Also tried with Bayou but changed back to plateau again cause I it was like a bad basic swamp when I drew it.
Anyone else played team italia recently?

ahg113
01-30-2013, 11:07 AM
@godofallu- The finisher comment is because if discard doesn't get the opponent, a war of attrition will favor something like Jace more so than Bob. It's not necessary, but I've felt the desire for one in games more than once.

@crust- Haven't tried Faithless Looting, but am a fan of Bayou, for DRS. Not because I want to gain life, but because I find it important to remove creatures every once in a while.

In the SB I've put in Rakdos Charm, because I'm sick of not interacting with artifacts. Seeing as how enchantments aren't as widespread, I like the utility Rakdos Charm presents. Have yet to see it in action.

Crust
01-30-2013, 03:50 PM
@godofallu- The finisher comment is because if discard doesn't get the opponent, a war of attrition will favor something like Jace more so than Bob. It's not necessary, but I've felt the desire for one in games more than once.

@crust- Haven't tried Faithless Looting, but am a fan of Bayou, for DRS. Not because I want to gain life, but because I find it important to remove creatures every once in a while.

In the SB I've put in Rakdos Charm, because I'm sick of not interacting with artifacts. Seeing as how enchantments aren't as widespread, I like the utility Rakdos Charm presents. Have yet to see it in action.

That is true about Bayou and DRS, have to rethink again.

Thinking about SB. I don´t play Vindicate main and I lack removal for artifact and enchantments. Rakdos Charm is nice but I think you also need to destroy enchanments (rest in peace, sylvan ibrary, moat) When I thought about it I came up with the old favourite Disenchant. It´s instant, 1W and takes both. Do we have anything better?

Crust
02-07-2013, 04:14 PM
Bayou was good againsr Reanimator, made the matchup a good one.

Changed 2 Faithless Looting for 2 SDT and it was also good. Think I will go back good old top.

The deck is really sweet in testing. Beat Walking Dead BRG and RUG today. Seems to be good matchups. Am going to take it to some torneys soon.
I'll post my current list with SB tomorrow so we can discuss alternative sb plans.

Crust
02-08-2013, 10:00 AM
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Tidehollow Sculler
4 deathrite shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
4 cabal therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 sensei's divining top
4 lightning bolt
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 arid mesa
1 bayou
1 plateau

SB
3 red elemental blast
1 duress
2 perish
1 extirpate
1 nihil spellbomb
2 orzhov pontiff
2 disenchant
1 oblivion ring
1 manriki-gusari
1 basilisk collar

Megadeus
02-08-2013, 10:18 AM
Anythoughts to blood moon in the SB? Seems pretty good against the mana bases being run currently.

Crust
02-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Yes I thought about that. But you have to be able to fetch swamp and or plains beford resolving Blood Moon. That can be tricky. On the other hand we have deathrite and he is a big help as long as yuo just get the Swamp.

ahg113
02-08-2013, 10:34 AM
My current list, to be played at SCG Edison this weekend (hopefully).


4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Basilisk Collar
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

I'm thinking of adding O-Ring to the board, two spots, reducing Rakdos Charm and Relic to two each. Between DRS and the SB, there's a lot of GY hate. O-Ring for Show&Tell.dec

A few friends told me to expect Jund and Storm combo as well. How realistic is the "next level" thought of Silence, Orim's Chant?

SirTylerGalt
02-09-2013, 08:19 AM
Would Boros Charm be good in this deck? It protects your threats from Decay / Supreme Verdict / Engineered Explosives, lets you double strike with Equipment, and gives you more reach.

Crust
02-10-2013, 02:31 PM
Boros Charm looks good on paper but I dont know what to cut for it. And in all honesty I don't know if I want it instead of anything. But it is under consideration.

I think more discard is better than Silence anf Orims Chant. Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist or Sculler is probably also good choices.

Crust
02-11-2013, 12:12 PM
My current list, to be played at SCG Edison this weekend (hopefully).


4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Basilisk Collar
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

I'm thinking of adding O-Ring to the board, two spots, reducing Rakdos Charm and Relic to two each. Between DRS and the SB, there's a lot of GY hate. O-Ring for Show&Tell.dec

A few friends told me to expect Jund and Storm combo as well. How realistic is the "next level" thought of Silence, Orim's Chant?

So did you go to Edison? How did it go? Can you contribute with ar report of some sort?

NilsH
02-17-2013, 07:33 PM
I took my take on Team Italy (or Dark Boros as I used to call it) to GPT Strasbourg this weekend. I don't have the time to go the GP, so I just played for fun. This was my first time playing this list. I don't have time to play much magic anymore, so the list was untested before I entered the event. I usally play blue control or control/combo, but I have played a simiular list a few years back.


Team Italia by NilsH

// Lands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [B] Swamp
1 [B] Plains
1 [B] Plateau
3 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Badlands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
1 [B] Meekstone
2 [AP] Vindicate
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
3 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [ARB] Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [MBS] Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [EX] Soltari Visionary
SB: 2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt


Short report from GPT:


Everything is from memory, so there may be some errors or something I've forgotten. Total match score and total game score (in brackets) after each round.

Round 1
Vegard - Merfolk
He win the dieroll. I've seen him playinger merfolk before, so I'll put him on Merfolk before the game has started. I keep a hand wiht Grim, SFM and lands. I play Grim turn 1 and Grim goes all the way. SB: +4 REB -4 TS. I play a Meekstone after he played his first lord. The meekstone buys me a enough time to stabilize. I win with 2x SFM for a Jitte and a Batterskull.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2
Truls - BUG Control
I win the dieroll. We're friends so I know what his playing. Game 1 i get a good start with Vial, Confidant, TS and Hymn. Unfortunatly he has removal for my Confidant and I flood lands, so I can't take advantage of my early discard. He wins the late game. Darkblast was a real pain. SB: +2 Nihil, +4 REB, +1 Blood Moon, +1 Grunt, -4 Swords, -1 Karaks, -1 Basilisk Collar, -1 Grim, -1 Mom? Game two I get another good start with discard and SFM. This time I don't flood and I win. We only get to the third turn in the last game before time is called. Game and match endes with a draw.

1-0-1 (3-1-1)

Round 3
Aksel - Kavu/Punishing Fire Zoo
He win the dieroll. Game one I only draw one land in my opening seven. I mulligan and get another hand with only one land. This hand has a SDT, so I deceide to keep. I play SDT turn one, and activate it in my upkeep in my secound turn. There's only one land on the top three. I fall way behind on tempo and lose the game some time after. SB: +1 Perish, +1 Grunt, +1 Revoker, +1 Blood Moon, +1 Leonin, -4 TS? Game two I have double Mom and Grim. I take the game, but once again I strugle with my mana. He used Wasteland (from KotR) to take all my red sources. Game three he has a fast draw. Him playing Kavu (with Trample) over goyf turn out to be relevant because Mom and blocker don't stop him.

1-1-1 (4-3-1)

Round 4
Rune - SnT/Omniscience Combo
He win the dieroll. I play TS on my first turn, but he Daze it. On my secound turn I play a Sculler, but he Force it. On his third I play SnT... I only have a Karakas in hand... but luckly he drops an Emrakul. I bounce Emerakul and win 4 turns later with a Jitte equiped to a Mom. SB: +4 REB, +1 Leonin, +1 Revoker, -4 STP, -2 Mom? Game two I have a turn one Vial. He plays a Clique in my draw phase on my secound turn, puting a Hymn on bottom. I draw another Hymn from the Clique trigger and play it. The next turns a use Vial to put a Sculler into play, play a Karakas and a Jitte. I win the game with Jitte equiped to a Sculler.

2-1-1 (6-3-1)

Round 5
Sølve - Elves Combo
He win the dieroll. He combos out turn 3 through a StP turn 1 and Hymn turn 2. He used a Summoning Pact so I let him play it out to see if he remembers to pay for it. He don't. He lose, I win (and I feel like a dick). We talk during sideboard and give him a few tips from my limited experience with elves. SB: +1 Perish, +2 ZP, -1 Basilisk Collar, -1 Meekstone, -1 Mom? Secound game I play a Grim on my first turn, and STP a guy and burn a guy with Grim on my secound turn. He floods but I'm stuck at two lands. He build his board with Glimse and 2 Wirewood Symbiote and an elf. Next turn he plays GSZ for Regal Force. I need a Perish or Zealous Perscution to kill his army, but I fail to find neither. Both games took forever (mostly him playing solitare) so time is called during sideboarding between game 2 and game 3. He's very kind a concede so one of us get to play in the top 8. The two games we played went pretty bad for me, but both games I was on the draw and didn't see a single sideboard card.

3-1-1 (8-4-1)

Quarter Final
Truls (same opponent as in Round 2) - BUG Control
He chooses to start. He keeps a land heavy hand. I tear it apart with TS and Sculler. Then I play a Confidant and beat him to death. SB: Almost the same as Round 2, but this time I keep 2 STP and cut 2 REB (for Mishra's).
Secound game I keep a greedy hand on the draw: One single fetch and a SDT. I dont' draw land, play fetch for swamp and SDT. During my next upkeep I activate top and see no lands on top 3... I'm in trouble! On his third turn he plays Liliana and start pumping her. I play a Nihil Spellbomb and pass the turn (still no land). He continues to pump Liliana and I feed her with random stuff. On my forth turn I find a secound land with top. Fast forward Lilana is at 6 and he has lands and Deed. He blows Deed to take Spellbomb and SDT. I still only have 2 lands, and need the third to play Vindicate on his Lilana. I activate SDT and find a land as the third card from the top. I blow the spellbomb but don't have another mana to draw a card from it. He pumps Liliana discarding Darkblast (I guess that's why he used Deed). On my turn I play my third land and Vinicate. Now the game is all even again because he didn't gain any advantage from Liliana.
I still have a good grip of cards, while he has lots of mana but almost empty hand. I play some guys but his Darkblast keeps my guys of the table. My plan at this point is to continue to search for lands with SD, fetch some basics and play the Blood Moon in my hand. Unfortunatly I plays another Deed, so I have to trick him to blow it before I can finish my plan. I try to "time walk" him with playing x/1 witch he can kill with Darkblast while I try to find something that will force him to blow the Deed. All this time he beats me with Mishra's Factories, and he gets me down to 6 life. After much effort he finale blows the Deed. I play Jailer, Blood Moon and SDT on my next turn. The game has turned. He can't do anything about it, his only hope is the last Deed in his deck. Next turn I beat him for 2 and play a Batterskull and Confidant. He doesn't find anything during his next three turns and I win.

4-1-1 (10-4-1)

Semi Final
Audun - BUG Stifle Naught
He chooses to start. I allmost know his exact list as we have discussed it online just a few day ahead the tournement. Game one I have TS, Hymn and Sculler. He can't handle all the disruption. SB: +1 Perish, +3 REB, +1 Leonin, +1 Revoker, -2 SFM, -1 Karakas, -1 Grim, -1 Mom, -1 Vial? Game two he has turn 1 land and Death Rite into turn 2 Torpor Orb Dreadnaught. I fail to find an answer. Game three I start with fetch for swamp into TS. His hand is Deathrite Shaman, Fetch, Stifle, Dreadnaught, Orb, Goyf and Abrupt Decay. I don't have an answer for Dreadnaught, but if he fails to draw lands he will be stuck. I take the Deathrite Shaman.
On his turn he plays the fetch crack it for an Island and passes. On my secound turn I draw a Sculler. I decide to play the Sculler over the Hymn because he can't kill it with Decay before he has drawn two other lands. I see that he has drawn a Bayou. I have to take the Dreadnaught to avoid Dreadnaught and Stifle next turn. On his turn he plays Bayou and Orb. On my turn I play another land and Hymn him. I pray that I'll hit the Decay... but I just get a Goyf and a Stifle. I play a Mom, the Sculler is unproteced for one. On his turn he topdecks a Brainstorm, plays it an hit a fetch. He cracks the fetch and kill my Sculler with Decay (and gets his Naught back). On my turn I draw another Sculler. Not the thing I want when Orb is in play... I play a Confidant and a Mom. I need a STP or a Vindicate fast! On his turn he plays Naught and a Deathrite Shaman. Confidant hit blanks the next turns and I die to the Naught.

4-2-1 (11-6-1)


Here are my final thoughts about some of the card choices:

Creatures:

Grim: I had problem feeding him enough cards. When he was online he was fantastic.
Mother of Runes: I've never played her before, but she was really good to protect Confidant and Sculler.
Sculler: I was pleasantly suprised with him. Vial him in your opponents drawstep is amazing!
SFM and Confidant was good as allways.


Spells:

Vial was really good, it is allmost like Sol Rings. The list is not dependent on Vial, and I don't want to draw multiples, so I cut one. As mentioned before using Vial protect your guys from sorcery speed removal, at least for a turn.
Sensei's Divinig Top is fantastic in mid late game assuming get to that stage of the game. Two SDT felt like a good number.
Thoughtseize was good. The life don't matter most of time, so I chose them over other options.
Hymn was allways great. I didn't miss the forth Hymn, I actually think I would play another 1cc discard if I wanted more discard. Sometimes multiple Hymns are clunky, and with only 3 I'll avoid these hands.
Swords to Plowshares is much better then Bolt in this deck. This is a control deck, and STP takes care of anything.
I liked having a secound Jitte if the first one get killed by legandary rule. Jitte is better than any Sword.
I think Basilisk COllar was too techy. I think I'll cut it. It was never really bad, but I think that slot can be put to better use.
Chains of Mephistopheles might be great... I didn't draw it a single match. But it should be a beating against anything with blue.
I'm not sure about Meekstone. Didn't do to much in the games I drawed it. It is one side (all my guys is below 3 power), and in theory it should be good against some decks. I just didn't face any of those decks today.
I was back and forth between Vindicate and Oblivion Ring. Oblivion Ring is an answer to some SnT decks, but ultimatly I deceided for Vindicate. The reason was Vindicate ability to hit lands, as I don't run Wasteland.


Mana:

I missed having a basic mountain against decks were I wanted an active Grim. The sideboard also contained some red cards were an extra red source would bed nice. Unfortunatly a basic mountain will be akward in some matchups.
Fetid Heath was Ok. It helped me play Hymn a bit easier, and it was never bad.


Regarding the lack of Wastelands: I didn't miss them. I wanted to make room for some basics and avoid color screw. Some basics Main Deck allowed for Blood Moon in the Side Board witch was really good against BUG (as expected).



Side Board:

ZP - Great against Maverick, TES (kills Empty the Warrens) and random "swarm decks".
Perish - Destroys Maverick and other decks with green. Unfortunatly I don't have room for more than one (maybe two) because ZP do the same only better against Maverick.
Leonin RW - Artifact/Enchantment "kill" on legs seems OK? Not completly sure.
Blood Moon - I love this card when I play red, even in 3 color lists.
Yixild Jailer - The best card against Dregde. Also stops Snapcaster Mage and Loam. Great side board card.
REB - Don't leave home without them! Four might not be the right number... as I don't have many red mana sources, and have problems cutting cards in match ups were they are good.
Spellbomb - I prefer "bombs" over Surgical/Extripate when I don't play Snapcaster. Spellbombs cantrips, so you can bring them in even in matches were your opponent is just semi dependent on their graveyard.
Grunt - Is a swiss army knife. He disrupt the opponents graveyard, shrink goyfs, removes threshold and blocks Mongoose all in one.
Soltari Visionary - I threw him in just for kicks. He is an unblockable attacker if you have a Jitte (or a Sword). Unfortunaly he is not as good as Trygdon Predator, as he can't kill artifacts.

Crust
02-19-2013, 06:38 AM
Thanx for a really good report and congratz to good results.
How was i with 4 Equipments?
Did you miss a big beater?

NilsH
02-20-2013, 01:36 PM
Thanx for a really good report and congratz to good results.
How was i with 4 Equipments?
Did you miss a big beater?

Thanks :smile:

4 Equipements felt good. I didn't get any clunky hands with equipments without creatures.

Jitte is frequently played by a lot of decks, and is often destroyed due to the legendary rule, hence I wanted a 2nd copy. It is more versatile then any other equipment, great vs both aggro (often destroys utility creatures with -1/-1 counters), and control and combo (+4/+4 to equiped creature).
Batterskull was my only big beater. It puts my opponent on a relativly fast clock, but I'm not sure it is needed. I think I fetched Jitte over Batterskull with my first SFM each time.
Basilisk Collar wasn't very impressive. I think I will replace it with something else, probably SoFI or SoLS.

I have played both Figure of Destiny, Boros Swiftblade and Mirran Crusader as my "big" beaters earlier. The doublestrike soldiers are sick when equiped, but I didn't miss any of them. I intended to play Mirran Crusader in the SB vs BGx lists (Jund, Rock, BUG), but I forgot them at home... :tongue:
The Sculler slots was earlier my "beater"-slots. In my meta, with lots of combo and control, Sculler was a better choice. Actually I think you might not need a big beater, because every creature becomes big once you put an equipment on it, and Mom will make you connect.

Crust
02-20-2013, 03:51 PM
I like your list a lot and I'm inspired. And I see your point with Mom who can protect and get your equipments online.

I've been playing this list for some time and it has been good but sometimes I have been lacking a beater.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (9)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
INSTANTS (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (5)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou

I like DRS, it gives you ramp and you can paly Lili on turn two wich is a very good play. Lingering souls combos with Lili and generate bodies for equipment. The other list that I'm going to try in a tournament next week is with two beaters in the form of a couple of Desecrationi Demons. With a lot of discard and removals I think they can be a house.
CREATURES (17)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Desecration Demon
SORCERIES (9)
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Forked Bolt
INSTANTS (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (4)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou

SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Blood Moon

Comments!?

Mirran Crusader is also a good choice but what experience do you have of WW in this deck?

NilsH
02-23-2013, 07:09 PM
I like your list a lot and I'm inspired. And I see your point with Mom who can protect and get your equipments online.

Thanks. I think I would do some minor tweaks before playing it again:
-1 Scrubland, +1 Arid Mesa (to help Grim)
-1 Meekstone, +1 Mountain (to help Grim and red sideboard cards, and to avoid being cut of red)
-1 Basilisk Collar, +1 Vindicate (More versatile)
-1 Chains of Mesostopheles -> Drop down from 61 to 60 cards.





I've been playing this list for some time and it has been good but sometimes I have been lacking a beater.

*List 1*

I like DRS, it gives you ramp and you can paly Lili on turn two wich is a very good play. Lingering souls combos with Lili and generate bodies for equipment. The other list that I'm going to try in a tournament next week is with two beaters in the form of a couple of Desecrationi Demons. With a lot of discard and removals I think they can be a house.

*List 2*

Comments!?

Mirran Crusader is also a good choice but what experience do you have of WW in this deck?

Big cheap beaters are generaly not in our colors. We have the options of some cheap double strike soldiers (really good with equipments) or maybe some large demon/angel with cc4+.
Liliana of DRS turn 2 is strong. Espesially if you can take advantage of her +1 ability with Lingering Souls or something simular.
How is Grim and DRS been working out together?
What's your metagame like? Your lists seems geared towards aggro/midrange with 4 STP/4 Bolt/3 Grim (or 4 STP/2 Bolt/2 Forked Bolt/4 Grim). In an unknown meta I would have cut some removal for 1-2 additional discard (TS or IoQ).
Mirran Crusader probably wouldn't be to good in my list because I want my Vial at 2, and only play 19 lands. In your list with more lands and DRS I think you won't have any problems casting him early.

Crust
02-24-2013, 11:52 AM
Your updates make sense. I want Basilisk Collar to be a good play but it can be tough to set it up so I agree Vindicate is better.
About my meta, there are alot of creaturebased decks hence the many removals, merfolk, maverick, jund, bug, nic-fit, goblins, rug, storm, s 'n t and more. but peolple tend to change there choice of decks so it can be hard to predict.

Grim and DRS havn't yet been a problem. But in my current list I´ve downsized to three DRS cause I have a lot of other turn one plays that is at least as good.
I'd like to test Mirran Crusader but tomorrow i'm going to play this list

CREATURES (13)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (11)
2 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt (Vindicate?)
INSTANTS (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (5)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Plateau

SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Blood Moon (Magus of the Moon)

When you mentioned Vindicate I started to give that some thoughts again. It is a bit slow but it is versatile. My choice of Forked bolt is that it can be 2 for one and I think this deck has to have a lot of those cards. It is a fair deck but we want to make it as unfair as possible. But maybe versatility is a better chioce than say a Forked Bolt.
Then I was thinking about Blood moon. I want it against, BUG, storm, reanimator (wich shows up now and then). But then I thought that magus of the moon would be even better?

NilsH
02-24-2013, 03:43 PM
Your updates make sense. I want Basilisk Collar to be a good play but it can be tough to set it up so I agree Vindicate is better.
About my meta, there are alot of creaturebased decks hence the many removals, merfolk, maverick, jund, bug, nic-fit, goblins, rug, storm, s 'n t and more. but peolple tend to change there choice of decks so it can be hard to predict.


Basilisk Collar is pretty nice on creatures with first strike (or double strike). :wink:
Lightning/Forked Bolt is good against the first 7 of the decks you listed, so I think it's correct to play both STP and Bolt in your list. My meta is more combo/control oriented (SnT Omniscience, SnT/Sneak Attack, TES, Stoneblade, Dreadstill, Reanimator, RUG, Maverick, Dregde), so 1cc discard is more valuable.



Grim and DRS havn't yet been a problem. But in my current list I´ve downsized to three DRS cause I have a lot of other turn one plays that is at least as good.
I'd like to test Mirran Crusader but tomorrow i'm going to play this list

CREATURES (13)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (11)
2 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt (Vindicate?)
INSTANTS (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (5)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Plateau

SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Blood Moon (Magus of the Moon)

When you mentioned Vindicate I started to give that some thoughts again. It is a bit slow but it is versatile. My choice of Forked bolt is that it can be 2 for one and I think this deck has to have a lot of those cards. It is a fair deck but we want to make it as unfair as possible. But maybe versatility is a better chioce than say a Forked Bolt.
Then I was thinking about Blood moon. I want it against, BUG, storm, reanimator (wich shows up now and then). But then I thought that magus of the moon would be even better?

Looking at your lists you don't have anything that punch through (big beater). Has that been a problem, or do you have enough removal to keep the board clear? Perish look to be really good in your meta, so running 3 in the SB seems very strong (that's one advantage of not running green). You are light on GY hate in the SB, but besides Reanimator you didn't mentioned any decks depending on the GY?

Regarding Blood Moon/Magus: Magus is easier to remove, but he also attack. Magus is better versus Storm, and worse against BUG (because they can kill him with Dismember, or for B with Ghastly Demise). In my experince Reanimator usally has a strong manabase with only two colors: Blue and Black. They can easily win with just a basic island and basic swamp, so I don't think Magus or Blood Moon is very strong against them.

Team Italia seems like a nice choice in your meta with so many creature heavy decks.

Merfolk should be an easy matchup. Grim can win alone, or even better: SFM->Sword of Fire and Ice just wrecks them. :cool:
I think Grim is your most important card in the Maverick match up, but in order to make him good you need to keep Mom of the table. Perish from the board so shore this up.
I only have experince with Jund from Modern, but I guess SFM and Grim are key cards here as well? :eyebrow:
BUG can be alot of things... The more controlling, the worse the matchup I think? Pernicous Deed is not something I want to see on the other side of the table. :frown: Hymn, discard, wasteland and Blood Moon is good versus them. They usally have a weak manabase.
RUG seems like a good matchup on paper, never played it myself.

As I mentioned before, I havn't played these kind of decks a lot, so it is mostly theorycrafting from my part :wink: In the end I think it comes down to different meta and preferances :smile:

Crust
02-24-2013, 04:46 PM
Sometimes dredge show up as well but lately I havn't seen that many GY based decks.
Yeah I figure I will stick to Blood Moon, I really want it to stay otherwise I can just play another card.
Don't know about big beater. Tomorrow I'll try with Lingering souls and an extra equipment, SoFI. I think Lingering souls is a strong card and paired with equip it can win you games. Then I have batterskull as a big one.
How did you handle active moms? I have Orzhov Pontiff in SB and he has been fine. I like him cause he is a body to carry equip. And he can be recurring.

NilsH
02-25-2013, 04:47 AM
How did you handle active moms?

Zealous Persecution. Maverick is the most common deck with Moms, and Zealouse Persecution kills Noble, Dryad Arbor, Thalia, Mindcensor, Scryb Ranger as well as Mom. Another option is to burn Mom with Grim, and then kill it in response with Bolt or STP when they activate it. Or you can burn it with Grim in their end of turn, then burn it again during your next turn.
Jitte also handles Moms, as it is colorless.

:smile:

Crust
02-26-2013, 05:32 AM
So I played a 20 man tournament yesterday with this list and here is a small report:

CREATURES (13)
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (11)
2 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Forked Bolt
INSTANTS (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (5)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Plateau

SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Perish
2 Extirpate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Team Italia Report

Mav
Mulled to 5, 3 lands, bolt and one more.
Didnt get to it with that hand. 0-1
SB: 2 perish 2 Orzhov Pontiff - 2 lilli, 2 discard.
In the second game I had a better hand. We traded and he was soon without cards. I had two Grim and a Bob then I drew Orzhov Pontiff and he pumped my guys ftw. 1-1
Third he was short on lands and i didn’t draw any threats, serching like a maniac with top but didn’t find anything against double mom. Finaly a drew Orzhov Pontiff and finished him off in timeround 4.
2-1

Burn
Did not draw any discardspells , just stp and bolts and I lost pretty fast. 0-1
SB: 2 extirpate and a Jitte. - 2 bob and a Lilli.
Second I had a Bob bolted away and then I landed a Jitte. Extirpated his PoP. Then came blood Moon. But I drew Grim Lavamancer and equiped Jitte and attacked, got counters on Jitte and he scooped soon after. 1-1
Third I had some discard and after a while on low life I managed to get SofI online and beat him to death.
2-1

Maverick
Got Lilli online and she made my day despite his Sylvan Library. 1-0
SB: 2 Perish 2 Orzhov Pontiff 1 Jitte 1 Disenchant.
- 2 lilli 3 discard.
He had 3 noble hierarch and an Ooze and I had DRS and Stoneforge. Got the Jitte online and started the beating. Bringing his team down with Jittecounters. He played an new Ooze and I hade more counters on my Jitte so his Hierarchs went away. Then came Lingering Souls and after that a drew an Orzhov Pontiff who pumped my team and I smashed in for a lot and finished him of with a Lightning bolt.
2-0

Nic fit Scapeshift.
He played Abrupt Decay on my Lilli when she was on 6. And a turn later he found Scapeshift with his SDT. 1-0
SB: 2 extirpate 2 perish 2 disenchant(for top and Deed) - bolts and Grim.
Got him to discard a lot and then Lilli ultimated. 1-1
Third I kept an ok hand with discard and Extirpate. I found a Lilli and it looked allright. I discarded his Scapeshift and extirpated it.
Then he played a Thragtusk and killed Lilli. I drew noting. Then he drew Burning wish and played it for Scapeshift and won.
1-2.


+
Orzhov Pontiff is a winner. Never get to use the Haunt ability though. Thinking of Zealous Persecution again but think I'll stick to OP, he is a body wich is very good.
Lingerings Souls is are great, want to fit in the third one.

-
Small beaters. Lingering Souls is a thing though.
DRS wasn´t too impressiv but still a nice guy to have.

ahg113
04-11-2013, 11:40 AM
Played last night at a weekly (Red Cap's Corner- in Philly), 19 players showed up, I went 2-2 squeaking into Top 8, then won my match for a four-way split of top 4, starts at 6 pm, finished up at 11, otherwise I think people might've played out the Top 4. The deck ran well.

After reading some of what other people had said back in late February, I made some changes to the deck, dropping the Basilik Collar and adding another Jitte (no XY swords.) Also made a quick change to the SB, as I was told to expect a lot of storm, RUG, BUG, Jund in the meta. Took out Relic for Leyline of Sanctity, dropped an E. Plague and Surgical for two zealous prosecution.

Should have changed the two zealous and the last e. plague for O. Ring... stupid show'n'tell...


4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

Rd 1 Garreth - U/W Counter-Top Helm-RiP Miracles
1-0 (2-0)
G1 I'm on the play- I first turn a Grim, and he second turns a counterbalance. I start to tank, but then think f'it, he has it, he has it... I turn 2 a SFM and he blind reveals a land so it lands. Grab Batterskull. I just grind him out. He doesn't draw removal, and my discard gets there. I therapied a Helm from a reveal to counterbalance, and then hymned two lands away. I naturally draw a Jitte. He concedes at 7 life to my 24 when I have Grim, Batterskull, SFM and Jitte in play, scoop to jitte equiped germ.
G2 I'm on the draw- I play a turn 1 DRS, which he promptly sworded. On his t2 he drops Counterbalance again, and I'm in sad town. However, he again just doesn't counter a single thing with the enchantment and I proceed to play out Grim, my own Top, DRS, Bob, SFM-Jitte. And it's just beats until dead. game ended with me 15, him dead.
I got very lucky in the match up that his counter magic was a non-factor. He was a pleasant person to play against, about a year into the game. I would enjoy playing him again.

Rd 2 Roy - ANT
2-0 (4-1)
G1 I'm on the draw- The game ends on a turn 4 storm bonanza. Prior to that we traded a bit of discard, he got to 10 before going off and I was just dead to Tendrils.

G2 I'm on the play- Very grindy game. I go bonkers with therapy and hymn to kill his hand, he doesn't draw much land, and I wasteland one of his duel. I got through with damage, killing his Bob's with Lavamancer, using my own Bob's to fuel the fire. I misplay with Top a bit, out-smarting myself. I get him down to 7 life, I'm at 10, and naturally draw a Leyline and decide to play it. I'm thinking this was a play error because I have a therapy in the bin, on board I had a SFM, Bob, Grim, Batterskull. I should've used therapy on the SFM to name Ad Nauseum, his only out card at that time. Anyhow, it probably did save my bacon and I win the next turn. G2 took forever, there might be about 5+ minutes left in the round.

G3 I'm on the draw, 1 mulligan- Game starts with two Leylines in play for me. I have 1 land, a SFM, Lingering and Rakdos Charm. Shaky, but in G3 I wanted to mull to Leyline, and just ended up getting two so... whatever, goal is not to lose. So it goes to turns. Prior to that I got the other land (one Mountain, one Scrubland) to play SFM Batterskull. Doing the math, if he does nothing I'll win in turns. On t1 of extra he goes off with Ad Nauseum to play Empty the Warrens. And that was the best thing I could've hoped for. On my turn after untapping, I simply tap my two lands, toss down Rakdos Charm, and game over, I won. The gathered audience enjoyed the display.

Again, it's good to be lucky. The pilot is a very good player, very cool in general. He was new to the deck, borrowing from a friend, however and didn't understand all of the intricacies etc. He wasn't aware of some of the flexibility with the deck to grab chain of vapors to solve Leylines which were in his board but not in his deck. Against Storm, the Leyline was totally clutch, the Charms were great too, either to punish for tokens or exile a graveyard if he got cute with a Past in Flames.

Rd 3 Chris - RUG
2-1 (4-3)
G1 I'm on the draw- beats, straight beats. He played first turn Delver, countered stuff, and I just died. A lil bolt action and snappy flashback. I hate blue, bunch of jerks.
G2 I'm on the play- beats, again... Plus, since we're friends and I tell him I love to durdle, he sides in Sulfuric Vortex. Ugh,the worst, just when I got Jitte active. Sad face.

Rd 4 James - Sneak'Show
2-2 (4-5)
G1 I'm on the draw- Short and sweet, he misdirects a hymn back at me. a turn 3 Show puts Griz into play. Swings once, on his first activation I try to swords it. He drops to 6 in response drawing again, it gets countered, I'm dead.
G2 I'm on the play- Blue is the devil, turn 3 Emmy, i have three creatures, three lands, and a Jitte in play. I concede because yeah... couldn't find that second black source for Lily. Show and tell should be etteraed to say "put permanent into play from hand." Obviously.

So I sneak into the Top 8 because I had great tie-breakers losing to Chris and James. Chris deciding to play in Rd 4 to secure top-seed is the balm to my .500 record. I play him again in an 1-8 rematch.

Rd 5 Chris - RUG
3-2 (6-6)
G1 I'm on the draw, he mulls to 5- He never recovers from mulligan. I play around wastelands and stifles fetching for basics. He eventually concedes with our life totals m-16, h-17 as I have Bob, DRS, SFM and Batterskull on board. It's good to be lucky.
G2 I'm on the draw- This game grinds out and is a lil back and forth in his favor. After talking about it, I have a couple of loose/sloppy plays, using a sword to kill a delver when I could wait a turn and use Grim lavamancer, the game ends with him on Goyf swinging to win after bolting my blocker, I'm dead, he's at 12. I was land screwed in this game, couldn't consistently get over 2 in play, either stifled fetches, or waste on duals.
G3 I'm on the play- I guess my opponent's unluckiness is my luck? Chris keeps a great hand for RUG, fetch, waste, stifle, delver, daze, one other business card. I however just open a great hand of my own. basic land, waste, fetches, little pressure. I play a basic, then waste his land, then go to town. He had a flipped delver that hit twice until I traded it with some lingering soul tokens. He eventually conceded after only playing a wasteland because he had 8 cards in hand and I had a Grim, SFM, and Batterskull on the board.

So we split Top 4 and I turned store credit into cards. The deck played well, the only change i would make is to take out the persecution and engineered plague and put in O-Ring. There aren't many Goblin or Elves decks to include engineered plague, and Rakdos Charm can punish those decks anyway, Grim Lavamancer being the reach.

ahg113
07-26-2013, 11:49 AM
necro'ish?


4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring

Change from previous list- MD +3 Tidehollow Sculler, -1 each Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize, Swords to Plowshares; SB +3 Oblivion Ring, -1 Engineered Plague, -2 Zealous Persecution

Another Wednesday night at the LGS. Had been rotating decks between this, Burn, Manaless Dredge and Belcher. Tidehollow Sculler was inspired from reading over the Deadguy and Zombardement lists. Another piece of disruption and a body always sounds good to me. Conceptually, I've been struggling with STP vs. Lightning Bolt. I'd love for the reach to sometimes hit an opponent, however L.Bolt doesn't solve the creature problems I have the way STP does (Gris, Goyf, etc.) Can't have everything I guess.

25 people playing

R1 Avery - ANT (or TES, embarrassingly difficult for me to tell the two apart)
0-1 (0-2)
G1 He's on the play. Not much happens in the early game. I land a Bob and probably waste or hymn him. His T5, he combos out and I die to exactsies due to Bob triggers. I thought I was moving and groving, he combo'd with 4 cards in hand.
G2 I'm on the play, he mulls to 6. Kept a shaky hand because I had Leyline, Sculler and a Lili, what I did not have were lands. Start game with Leyline in play, lead with Wasteland. Get a topdeck land, get fetch, pass. I think I then draw a mountain, by this time I've also drawn Rakdos Charm. He makes 14 goblins, I have 2 lands and a DRS on board, and die shortly there after. To make the "score" look better, I do Rakdos him for 14 before dying the next turn.
I'm kind of surprised this match-up went so poorly.

R2 Roy - Maverick
1-1 (2-2)
G1 I'm on the play. I disrupt him with Wasteland on his Arbor and hymn. An early Bob nets me a Jitte that goes to work with an early Grim as well. I'm killing dudes with Grim, or STP on an Aven Mindcensor. He scooped at m-11, h-13 with me having a Bob+Jitte, DRS and SFM on the table.
G2 He's on the play. I land an early DRS, and a Bob, he gets an early Thalia. Before Thalia, I STP an Ooze. I have a wasteland but use it to cast Bob instead of getting a land, in the follow-up he casts a Sylvan Library. The following turn I hymn him... disruption should trump creatures, but Bob is so good... He does a lot of the work for me, as I get another wasteland and he takes 8 from Sylvan during the course of the game. I play around Thalia, casting Lingering Souls, they trade and so forth, then I flash it back. At some point we trade his Q.Pridemage for my Bob, as I don't want to kill myself, and I get in there with spirit tokens. He had an unusable KotR and another dead card on top of his library for the longest time. I basically out-Mavericked Maverick. Somewhere in G2, I also used a Perish to just leave Thalia on his side of the Board, netting a KotR and an Arbor.

R3 Cory - UR - Sneak and Breach
2-1 (3-3-1) game went to turns in G3, I had position not enough time, he dropped the match to me because I was paired down
G1 He's on the play. This game got drawn out. I start with a hymn that he forces, so basically same dif. I cast a sculler grabbing (?) and we proceed to not do a lot except I'm making land drops and eventually cast a lili that just keeps going uptick. Sculler beats, he gets a Sneak Attack into play, but nothing to use with it. Eventually finds an emmy and I'm left with a Lili in play and 1 land. I ultimate Lili letting him keep his lands (island, mountain, tomb, v.island, ?), and tossing the Sneak, a Tomb and SDT (prolly could've split that a bit better.) I find a land and a Bob and begin swings, could've played jitte to gain life and swing, but cast Sculler instead. It comes down to my upkeep, anything but a land and I'm dead at 1 life. Bob trigger land, swing for win. He did Sneak a Gris into play to block, that I STP'd before blocks, bullet dodged.
G2 He's on the play. T0 blood moon. hmm, a few outs, but not many... After not drawing the plains I needed (but probably the 1 mountain), I scoop on T5.
G3 I'm on the play. I fetch-Seize him my first turn, see B.Moon, Ponder, Gris, T.Breach, 2 fetches. I take the ponder. A few turns later I play Sculler and take the Breach. When he could've cast B.Moon he passed a turn. it was ok as I had a basic plains and an O.Ring in hand. I get beats with Sculler and DRS. Dominating the Board, game ends at him 6, me 16, on my turn, I could've taken him to 2, end game in draw.

He's cool about it, without hesitation drops to me. I should've brought this up earlier and asked, I almost turned in the slip as a straight draw, and my night would've been scudded. Always talk to your opponent and be aware of your situation. As people dropped out, as a higher number table, it didn't occur to me I was paired down. He would've pulled to 1-2 and been out, but at 2-1 I was still alive for top 8. Head in the game, head in the tourney.

R4 Chris - Elves!
3-1 (5-4-1)
In this game I asked for the concession right out after he said he was 1-2, and I was 2-1. He agreed, thankfully, and we played it out anyway, as that's what we were there to do, sling cardboard. I knew he was on Elves, and it's sometimes very difficult. Heart of the cards. Because the outcome was predetermined, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt in playing a bit loose. I consider him a good Elves player in general.
G1 He's on the play, I mull to 6. He grabs something 1st turn, I drop a Grim. It's probably the best start I can hop for. I land a 2nd turn Bob and attempt to keep his creatures under control. I get him to 13, then he N.Orders for a Progenitus, :(. Not enough fodder in my yard to feed Grim to kill his dudes timely.
G2 I'm on the play. A real good hand to open with. T2 Sculler grabs Glimpse. T3 Sculler grabs A.Decay. other cards in hand after playing forest nettle, 2 N.Orders, Craterhoof, Prog (ouch). He draws a card to five in hand. I cast Hymn, net the Prog. (obviously), and he reveals the hidden card for the heck of it, reroll the 6-die about 4 times because it's landing on 6 or 5 and I roll a 1, which nets V.Shaman- Yahtzee!. After that it's just beats with Scullers, Bob, and a DRS.
G3 This game didn't last long. I kill one of his early plays, he gets three dudes out, Llanowar, Heritage, nettle, one forest in play. Then I follow up with a Perish and it's a blow out. There might've been a discard play in there by myself too. I actually win this round, but again, I think it's because we did this for funsies.

T8 Sam - U/W Miracle Helm Control
4-1 (7-4-1)
G1 He's on the play. Quick start by me with DRS, followed by turn 2 Sculler grabbing Entreat, followed by turn 3 Bob. He STP'd Sculler, I beat with Bob and a DRS trigger before Terminus. Resolved a Grim and finished him off, no second Terminus.
G2 He's on the play. Quick start again, Thoughtseize, DRS, SFM into Batterskull. He lands a Jace and a Counterbalance. Counterbalance has almost no effect, Jace dies after 1 brainstorm activation. Best play for me is him tutoring for a Detention Sphere on my Lili, then me having the O.Ring for his sphere. Lili does major work in this game, dropping hands to nada. He uses Helm to snag a DRS from me, which is sac'd by Lili. Beats get there after a while, card advantage from Bob drown out U/W.

T4 Jaffri - TES (or ANT, embarrassingly difficult for me to tell the two apart)
4-2 (7-6-1)
Hubris get's the better part of me. The T4 want to split, and I want to keep playing. In essence, I cost myself ~$20. Earlier in the night, I got hosed by storm. But I think I have game against it... not so much.
G1 He's on the play. I die T4/5 to too many goblins. Silence is a pain in the butt. Had double hymns, couldn't cast them until his hand was empty with 14 goblins.
G2 I'm on the play, mull to 6. Had a hand with Leyline, but only 1 wasteland. Toss it, get m'eh, discard and a few fetches. Much like the first game, he storms for 20 goblins, I have a DRS and 2 lands in play. He AdN to 5 life. I basically have two draws to top deck a Rakdos Charm or top into charm. It doesn't happen, I die. Hubris- ARGH!

The deck is solid. Simple game plan, disrupt, turn dudes sideways. I'm usually sideboarding in 6 or less cards, taking out STP, L.Souls, or a mix of an SFM+Jitte+? for the different rounds, add new cards in as needed. I feel as though I can beat storm, but my mulligan decisions aren't as tight as they probably should be, I'm hesitant. A non-U Deathblade deck, I like it.

Cheers,
I was a little upset when I heard Fabiano was a bit of a dick, but I can see that, still like the deck, if not it's original champion

evilGod
07-26-2013, 01:03 PM
Were the Deathrites worth it? I'm wondering if there were games that having Deathrite over the 4th StP/SFM or whatever was actually what gave you the win. I do still like the idea of going BWR, especially in a fair meta. Also, part of me thinks that Dreadbore gains some power with the new legend/'walker rules, having a cheap out to Jace/Lili seems good.

2 things: First, though you can beat storm, I've been playing Deadguy for coming up on 2 years now and trust me, you are not favored. Second, a friend of mine has a Fabiano story, and I was also disappointed to learn that he's an ass.

ahg113
07-26-2013, 01:18 PM
Deathrites are totally worth it. As far as I'm concerned, it's a mono-B ramp elf, that sometimes doubles as a Grim Lavamancer. I only play one Bayou in the deck, so I'm not hurting myself scrounging for green sources, if I can I do, if not so be it. The 4th spell you're alluding to came out for Tidehollow Sculler. Much happier with that. Lingering Souls doesn't get there by itself, but it can stem/stop bleeding. I've sometimes had too many STPs and not enough creatures to kill, not all decks cast dudes. It is also GY hate, providing extra slots so post board there are 7 anti-gy cards (R.Charm).

Ramping into a t2 Lili, or a t2 play of a two drop and a one drop (thoughtseize then Bob/SFM) are just ridiculous plays enabled by Deathrite. Playing 8 fetchlands + 3 Waste, there's plenty of fodder for him, although I prefer to live out of the opponent's graveyard.

irt Dreadbore- not a fan at 2 mana sorcery. I solve opposing planeswalkers with Grim or swinging to kill. If it were an instant, maybe, but it'd be taking the spot of STP. And running such a low curve, 2 vs. 1 makes a difference when it matters of making multiple plays to interact.

nedleeds
07-26-2013, 02:07 PM
Seems like your yard is getting pulled in a million different directions (Grim vs. DRS vs. souls). You ever consider Darkblast to fuel your own yard (and own Maverick / Goblins / Clique-SCM.dec)?

ahg113
07-26-2013, 02:44 PM
For creature control I still think it's STP vs. the field. I'm not interested in milling myself for a repeatable -1/-1 ability. The match-ups Darkblast shines I feel there is already a comfortable answer, aside from goblins. I use DRS for the opponent's yard more so than mine (so many fetches), so it's basically Grim living out of my own, as L.Souls isn't something I want to "eat".

ahg113
07-29-2013, 04:31 PM
SCG Open Somerset

Went with the best of intentions, and had a first round match against the buddy I got a ride with, uber lame. Top it off, BUG has been in my experience the worst match-up, and he's playing BUG, typical. Here's an extremely average outing before my ride and other passenger decided it was time to drop and go home. On a positive note, Tidehollow Sculler is pretty great. Opening up the mythic Hellcarver Demon was the best indication of how my day would go.

Rd 1 G - Shardless BUG
0-1 (1-2)
G1 I'm on the play, he mulls to 6. Not much happens, land an early DRS, he forces a hymn. He gets strix. I STP strix and start swinging with a Tidehollow (Lili). DRS eats stuff, draw a SFM, play it, put B.Skull in play, and win. My disruption is better than his disruption.
G2 I'm on the draw. First turn Thoughseize for a Krosan Grip, protect the Tidehollow in hand. This game he controls the stack, I maybe get a hymn in and most of it is for naught. I die to DRS activations, Shardless swings and get to a point where it makes more sense to scoop in order to play game 3.
G3 I'm on the play. This is where as a player, I need to get better at mulligans (recuring theme). I don't draw into much land, what I did have was wastelanded away, aside from a basic swamp. I had a Perish in hand, with no ability to cast it. DRS activations + Strix beats and a goyf get there. Sooo lame.

Rd 2 Mike - RUG (with Stifle and G.Probe)
1-1 (3-2)
G1 I'm on the draw. This game goes text book for me. He gets a quicker start, but I grind better. DRS helps, I STP an unflipped delver, he FoW's a Bob. He starts to hit with a Threshold Mongoose, getting me down to 9. With wasteland and discard, he gets to a point whree he's at 2 lands, Goose and no hand, vs. Bob, 4 spirit tokens and a B.Skull in hand.
G2 I'm on the draw. He has two small gooses doing work, and adds a goyf to the table. Up until this point, my only relevant play was a Sculler grabbing Ancient Grudge. The turn before he can swing with goyf, I cast Persih, it resolves, tempo - me. He returns favor by FoW a Lili, pitching a delver. I beat with the sculler, land a Bob and grow my hand. I end up casting a 2nd Perish netting a goyf and a goose. At 4 life, I STP my own Bob, revealing a Scrubland... I was not going to loose to a revealed Batterskull. I plop down Grim to hang with Sculler and a SDT with 5 lands to his three lands. Another win, one of the match-ups I look forward to playing.

Rd 3 Ian - Esper Deathblade
1-1-1 (4-3-1)
G1 I'm on the ?, he mulls to 6. I don't see DRS this game, but I waste an early Tundra, and hymn to force a discard of IoK and Force. He doesn't recover well and I follow with a Sculler, nabbing DRS. Sculler beats, my own DRS activations. I cast and land a SFM for B.Skull and that wraps up the game, quick and tidy.
G2 I'm on the draw. This game drags on, as mid-range v. mid-range is wont to do. I first turn Thoughtseize a DRS. He gets an early Bob that takes the game over. I cast my own, but he has the sword for it. I succumb to the card advantage, a SFM gets a Jitte for him and I'm just scrubbed out.
G3 I'm on the play. We try to get this game in as to avoid a draw. He STP'd an early Bob, twice. I land a Grim and swing. We both have DRS on board, and I'm slow to get cards into my graveyard. We have DRS fights, and as soon as cards are hitting my yard, I'm using Grim to control the board. I punt this game that ultimately ends up in a draw. Not accounting for play errors of my opponent, there was a sequence where he had tapped out to play a B.Skull. I used an STP on the token, then a Rakdos Charm on the equipment. I let him gain 4 life, and in the end, we drew with him at 5. I could have just as easily repeated that play without letting him gain life. He had an active Jace under heavy pressure that I decided to let uptick. He got the ultimate off in turns, and I replaced the two cards in hand in my library, it was too little for the win. I finished the game over 20 life (DRS). I flooded on lands, no doubt assisted by fateseal.

Rd 4 Stuart - Maverick
1-1-2 (5-4-2)
G1 I'm on the draw. Thoughtseize T1, grab an STP. I follow that up with STP-ing his pridemage, but not before he hits me with an exalted Scryb. I land a Bob, and first reveal is a SDT. The card advantage/SDT bonus is even, because he also has a Sylvan Library, ultimately taking 8 damage from it. The game is very grindy, and he plays Thalia, I play another Bob, he lands a Sigarda (FML) and I manage to kill his KotR's with Grim lavamancer and two DRS's controlling his yard. Lingering Souls tokens do the ass saving as chump blockers. A landed batterskull + DRS activations allows me to live long enough to win. Great game and back and forth play. It was an intense match that we both enjoyed.
G2 I'm on the draw. He beats the ever living tar out of me. Ooze lands early, becomes a problem, picks up a jitte, and that's about the majority of the game. He does what he does, and I sit and watch.
G3 I'm on the play. My notes from this game are haphazard. I pulled my bacon out of the fire to not lose this one. Our first game had taken so long, that this game went to turns quickly. I get lucky in having Bob reveal whatever, then drawing a Perish to kill his onslaught. He did land a Linvala against me, and :(. I was lucky to draw this one, whereas I think I should've won the previous.

Rd 5 Dave - BUG (with Daze, Stifle, no Jace)
1-2-2 (6-6-2)
G1 I'm on the play. I lead fetch, he follows Polluted Delta, I follow with a fetch. He cracks his one, I crack both mine in response. He thoughtseizes me, taking a hymn. I follow with a t3 DRS. The game is back and forth, but I just ram head long into his counterspells, Daze specifically. Another bonehead play, I cast an SFM (he saw it from thoughtseize), in response he uses his DRS to eat a land, otherwise he's tapped out. I should've eaten it in response with my DRS. However, I let that happen and he casts a stifle on the SFM trigger. From there he has answers for most of my plays, Lili countered by a Daze, and then another one. DRS and Strix close the game out slowly.
G2 I'm on the play. Fetch - swamp, no play. He plays Thoughtseize grabs a Bob. I fetch a mountain, cast DRS. Instead of playing the second Bob in hand, I try to play around Daze. He follows up with Extirpate on Bob, :(. I fetch again and use a Tidehollow on his Bob. He's land light and scoops with one land, I'm holding an REB in hand, with DRS equipped with Jitte and a top.
G3 He's on the play, mulls to 6. (I should've mulled with one land and a Waste in hand.) I get a swamp with my fetch, have Hymn in hand, a Sculler, and he proceeds to just keep me off lands. I missed a land drop, he has two lands and a Waste. He waste my waste, taking his Bayou (or Sea?). Already has Goyf on the table, and that just rides to the win. I have a Perish in hand, get another land and never get the third to cast it.

Rd 6 Tim - Enchantress
2-2-2 (8-6-2)
G1 I'm on the play. I lead fetch into scurbland, thoughtseize taking wild growth. T2 I thoughtseize again taking Ground Seal, T3 I Tidehollow taking solitary confinement. Needless to say, I'm in a commanding position. He lands an Elephant Grass and maintains it, so I'm sorta frozen out until Bob reveals a Grim Lavamancer. That's equiped with Jitte and beats get there. A Lili was added, nuked an A.Enchantress, and ate hands.
G2 He's on the play, mulled to five (couldn't find the Leyline). He kept a one plains hand, not wanting to drop to four cards. Early Bob, found a DRS. Sculler grabbed GSZ, leaving e.presence, and utopia sprawl. He found a forest and cast Sprawl, I followed that up with an O.Ring. He did get the enchantress presence, but Bob beats with a Batterskull from SFM are just too much, too fast.

Sideboard was typically siding out Lingering Souls (except in the Maverick matchup) or STP, then a Jitte, SFM, sometimes Batterskull or another card (forget which matchup, but Grims in one go round for REBs and Charm). Typically didn't board in more than 6 cards. Leyline was a trap in a couple of the earlier matches. It should be saved for Burn & Storm. Perish, REB, Rakdos Charm, and O.Ring performed well. I wanted to stay, but Somerset is a bit too far a walk to Philly. Deck ran well, player error led to one lost and one draw. Addition of Tidehollow Sculler really helped, more threats and disruptive at the same time. I knew BUG was a problem, and that was both of my loses. Not sure how to remedy except from tighter play and better shuffling.

Till the next time.

Martin
07-30-2013, 06:26 AM
Hello everybody!
It's my first time posting in this thread, but i have read the whole BW Deadguy Ale Primer and the whole Team Italia Primer, and I developed a pretty solid list. I decided to include Deathrite Shaman main even though we already play 3 colours, simply because of what it can do even without green. I mean, just read it without the green ability. It is THAT good.

Creatures(14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Deathrite Shaman

Sorcerys(12)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls

Instants(7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Artifacts/Planeswalkers(7)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands(20)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Isolated Chapel

Okay, there are some unusual things in this list:
Sword of Fire and Ice: I have found this to be a much better lategame finisher than Jitte because if you compare the situation of a Token equipped with Jitte or SoFaI, Sword is 3 damage per turn if they can't chumpblock, an additional card and can kill creatures or provide another 2 damage to the dome.
Deathrite Shaman: Just having the edge against Dredge or Reanimator in the main makes these matchups winnable. Not easy, not god but winnable. You can exile Therapies or Dread Return against Dredge, and against Reanimator: I play 8 Fetchlands that can get me the Bayou, so I don't think getting the Bayou would be the problem. The only problem I can see is if you have 2 Lavamancers/DRS and almost no graveyard to toy with anymore. However, I never had this problem yet.
Bayou: Acts as a Basic Swamp with the nice addition to activate DRS's 3rd ability. If they waste it, wow, they wasted a land that effectively gives you one colour to use. That's not what you wanna do with Wasteland. Decks that rely on a fast beatdown such as Zoo or Burn don't play Wastelands so the lifegain of Shaman might be usable and relevant in such matchups (to be honest: who saw Zoo in the last 3 months on a tournament?)

Sideboard:
2 Shriekmaw: The Overkill against Show and Tell.dec. Even if you don't drop it into SnT, It is a Must-Counter for them, or Emrakul is dead
2 Rest in Peace: Okay, there is no card that is equally good against RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, Loam, anything Graveyard related, but RIP comes close to that.
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction: These two are just good against Storm, RUG, Loam, Pox, Jace.dec, Snapcaster, graveyard.dec,... I just couldn't decide which was the better call, so i splitted them.
3 REB: RED hardcounter? Yesssss please :D
2 Silence: Following Situation: You have it in your starting hand G2 (against Stormcombo.dec) and wait for them to play their 3rd mana ritual or High Tide or whatever. When they finally wanna go off, you just slam it on the table, rip off your shirt and scream though the whole store: "THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR PLAYING STORM" Seriously, I had it in my Starthand after boarding several times (~3-4) and it was always one of the best weapons these colors have to offer against Storm.
2 Thoughtseize: A competent SnT player knows how to play around a single discard spell, or two with Brainstorm. That's why I bring in additional discard against those fuckers.

I must admit, my Sideboard just says Screw you, Comboplayer, but since I quite have the game against any kind of aggro deck running around in my meta exccept for DnT, and I don't have Virtue's Ruin yet, and we have a nice game against control anyway, I stuffed it with combohate of any kind or colour.

ahg113
07-30-2013, 09:40 AM
Hello everybody!
It's my first time posting in this thread, but i have read the whole BW Deadguy Ale Primer and the whole Team Italia Primer, and I developed a pretty solid list. I decided to include Deathrite Shaman main even though we already play 3 colours, simply because of what it can do even without green. I mean, just read it without the green ability. It is THAT good.

Creatures(14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Deathrite Shaman

Sorcerys(12)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls

Instants(7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt

Artifacts/Planeswalkers(7)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands(20)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Isolated Chapel

Okay, there are some unusual things in this list:
Sword of Fire and Ice: I have found this to be a much better lategame finisher than Jitte because if you compare the situation of a Token equipped with Jitte or SoFaI, Sword is 3 damage per turn if they can't chumpblock, an additional card and can kill creatures or provide another 2 damage to the dome.
Deathrite Shaman: Just having the edge against Dredge or Reanimator in the main makes these matchups winnable. Not easy, not god but winnable. You can exile Therapies or Dread Return against Dredge, and against Reanimator: I play 8 Fetchlands that can get me the Bayou, so I don't think getting the Bayou would be the problem. The only problem I can see is if you have 2 Lavamancers/DRS and almost no graveyard to toy with anymore. However, I never had this problem yet.
Bayou: Acts as a Basic Swamp with the nice addition to activate DRS's 3rd ability. If they waste it, wow, they wasted a land that effectively gives you one colour to use. That's not what you wanna do with Wasteland. Decks that rely on a fast beatdown such as Zoo or Burn don't play Wastelands so the lifegain of Shaman might be usable and relevant in such matchups (to be honest: who saw Zoo in the last 3 months on a tournament?)

Sideboard:
2 Shriekmaw: The Overkill against Show and Tell.dec. Even if you don't drop it into SnT, It is a Must-Counter for them, or Emrakul is dead
2 Rest in Peace: Okay, there is no card that is equally good against RUG Delver, Dredge, Reanimator, Loam, anything Graveyard related, but RIP comes close to that.
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction: These two are just good against Storm, RUG, Loam, Pox, Jace.dec, Snapcaster, graveyard.dec,... I just couldn't decide which was the better call, so i splitted them.
3 REB: RED hardcounter? Yesssss please :D
2 Silence: Following Situation: You have it in your starting hand G2 (against Stormcombo.dec) and wait for them to play their 3rd mana ritual or High Tide or whatever. When they finally wanna go off, you just slam it on the table, rip off your shirt and scream though the whole store: "THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR PLAYING STORM" Seriously, I had it in my Starthand after boarding several times (~3-4) and it was always one of the best weapons these colors have to offer against Storm.
2 Thoughtseize: A competent SnT player knows how to play around a single discard spell, or two with Brainstorm. That's why I bring in additional discard against those fuckers.

I must admit, my Sideboard just says Screw you, Comboplayer, but since I quite have the game against any kind of aggro deck running around in my meta exccept for DnT, and I don't have Virtue's Ruin yet, and we have a nice game against control anyway, I stuffed it with combohate of any kind or colour.

Hey Martin,

So, comparing our two list the major differences are (Mine v. Yours)- +1 DRS v. +1 SFM; +1 Jitte v. +1 SoFI; +3 Sculler & Hymn v. +4 Iok & +2 Cabal T.; +3 Waste v. +3 L.Bolt; +1 Lili v. +1 STP.

Do you have any experiences from LGS? Off the bat, I would go for a SoFI over an extra Jitte, it's just card availability at this point in time. It appears that you run more instants/sorceries and I tend to be more permanent based. Does board state factor into many of your games? Your list would have an easier go of using Grims and DRS more effectively. (I consider the DRS v. SFM a wash.) I've wanted to use L.Bolt for a while, but am happy with Wasteland, do you miss being able to interact with opponent's lands?

Thanks for sharing.

What are your good and bad match-ups? I'd guess

Martin
08-05-2013, 07:29 AM
Hey Martin,

So, comparing our two list the major differences are (Mine v. Yours)- +1 DRS v. +1 SFM; +1 Jitte v. +1 SoFI; +3 Sculler & Hymn v. +4 Iok & +2 Cabal T.; +3 Waste v. +3 L.Bolt; +1 Lili v. +1 STP.

Do you have any experiences from LGS? Off the bat, I would go for a SoFI over an extra Jitte, it's just card availability at this point in time. It appears that you run more instants/sorceries and I tend to be more permanent based. Does board state factor into many of your games? Your list would have an easier go of using Grims and DRS more effectively. (I consider the DRS v. SFM a wash.) I've wanted to use L.Bolt for a while, but am happy with Wasteland, do you miss being able to interact with opponent's lands?

Thanks for sharing.

What are your good and bad match-ups? I'd guess

I usually outclass other decks by having a response to nearly all strategies, although I sorta miss the board presence. I thought about including Hero of Bladehold as a few did before me but I wasn't too happy with it. It usually just catched StP/any black removal/bounce. I often have a combination of Deathrite and Grim on the board, which both just stall out the opponent. I seem to have a not-so-good matchup against swarmaggro/Elfball/Zoo/Goblins like all Confidant decks tend to. I will adjust my sideboard, adding some EE and/or Engineered Plague.

Lands have never been a problem for me, except for Groves, but Deathrite+Discard handles P.Fire pretty well, so I didn't want to instabilize the manabase too much. Against Maze of Ith I generally go in the lategame and win with several equipments. I have the second Jitte, it just seems to me that Sword of Fire and Ice is so good that it deserves a MD spot.

Looking at the cards, I just realized that Crusader would work good with SoFaI but I think I would miss the protection against StP. Anyway, no other creature I have has so much Protection, so, meh. Maybe I will test him.

godmodecomplex
08-31-2013, 04:24 AM
Hey what's up ? I'm a very long time lurker and a very first time poster I have been having some recent success with this list in my local meta and I would love some input ! Btw I never knew how awesome chains was against spiral tide until this past weekend it was a complete blow out. My main issue with this deck is that it has a hard time with rug delver. And the obvious lose the die roll lose the game match ups. That being said I feel like I demolish ancestral bug and blue stone blade mirrors. Tribes are a joke. I feel like if there's some way that I could shore up the rug match this deck could be a powerhouse.
22 land
2 swamp
1 mountain
1 plains
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
3 badlands
1 bayou
3 wastelands

15 creatures
3 stoneforge
4 confidant
4 deathrite
2 grim lavamancer

3 artifacts
1 skull
1 jitte
1 divining top
1 sword of x and y (or the 3rd g.l.m.)

20 spells
4 stp
4 bolt
4 hymn
2 seize
2 inquisition
3 lingering souls
2 vindicate

15 sideboard
1 enlightened tutor
1 nihil spell bomb
1 grafdiggers cage
1 tormods crypt
2 oblivion ring
2 perish
2 chains of Mephistopheles
2 Thalia
1 ethersworn cannonist
2 wear/tear

ahg113
09-09-2013, 01:51 PM
Team Italia placed 8th @ SCG Philly yesterday- http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58919


4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Scrubland

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Duress


Also, I'm excited to try out Tymaret, the Murder King (theros), starting off as a two-of, replacing a Grim and something else.

DemolitionColorScheme
11-10-2013, 10:34 AM
Hey guys, I've recently been assembling Team Italia as well since I had most of the pieces already due to me also playing Patriot (RUW Delver). I wanted a non-blue deck that felt a bit original.

My current list:

Land [22]:
4 Scrubland
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures [15]:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Grim Lavamancer

Instants [4]:
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [11]:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate

Plainswalkers [4]:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Artifacts [4]:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard [15]: (under construction)
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Wear / Tear
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
2 Slaughter Games
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Body and Mind

---------------------------------------------------------

It's definitely a fun deck to play, though it is an adjustment not really being able to counter anything or to sculpt your hand with cantrips. Therefore I feel the deck does have a weak matchup versus fast combo-decks like ANT/TES. Show and Tell is a little more doable if you manage to get a bunch of discard rolling. I feel my current list might be a bit too discard heavy. I'm thinking of removing the 2 Inquisition's of Kozilek and adding two more Tidehollow Sculler's since it kinda accomplishes the same and gives you a body. The upside of Inquisition is that it's CMC1, so it might save your ass if you're on the play (though Sculler can't be Spell Pierced). It's the reason why I opted for the Inquistion's right now.

I haven't seen the addition of Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the lists, but a friend of mine recommended it. When it's on the board, it does do a lot for this deck; it produces chump blockers each turn (providing stalling so you can keep denying their resources and getting her to 8 / 9 so you can crack her ulti, though not really that impressive) and versus combo-decks it sets a hefty clock with her second ability. The evasion is also something that shouldn't be overlooked, since we have 0 evasion in this deck. It can synergise well with equiped creatures due to that given evasion. a 7/7 Flying, Vigilance, Lifelink Batterskull is pretty scary, haha. When it's on the field and equipped creatures get killed, a 1/1 token can pick up a Jitte/Sword again in the next turn. With a DRS on the field, you can drop her on turn 3 and start swinging for serious damage or you can stall. She comes with 4 Loyalty counters and has no -1 or -2 ability, so she's pretty safe from bolts most of the time. She can't be Abrupt Decayed as well. It has won me a few games, but I'm not sure yet if she's really worth the slot. A sword or extra Jitte / Batterskull or something else might be better. She's interesting, though.

Most lists opt for 4 Scrubland and 4 Badlands, but I opted for 3 Badlands and one more Verdant Catacombs, since fetching that single Bayou in certain games is really important, like vs Dredg, Reanimator, Storm, etc. It also gives more food for DRS and GLM. Besides, main-deck, the only Red I run is GLM.

The sideboard is always a tricky thing. It's all about the current meta and it always changes. Right now it does pack a lot of graveyard hate, but not neccesarily for Dredg, Reanimator and Storm per sé. Graveyard hate also does wonders vs Threshold / Gofys. The addition of 2 Slaughter Games is for combo decks. It can't be avoided and can wreck decks like Storm and Show and Tell. The downside is the CMC, so I might just add one more Ethersworn Canonist and one more Rest in Peace or Enlightened Tutor, though Ethersworn doesn't do much vs Show and Tell (OmniTell), since they can still just opt for Emrakul. So much choices ...

Sword of Body and Mind is something I'm trying now vs. RUG and BUG; can't really comment on that one yet.
I'm also looking to try out adding two Bitterblossom to the deck. I wanna see if that'll be interesting.

Thoughts?

Esper3k
11-15-2013, 10:28 PM
Funny, I recently started brewing a Team Italia list as well, but with Young Pyromancer + Lingering Souls in addition to SFM and Bob to give a high density of must-answer two-drops.

A card I've been really liking in the sideboard is Rakdos Charm as a flexible answer both to artifacts and to graveyards.

DemolitionColorScheme
11-16-2013, 07:21 AM
Funny, I recently started brewing a Team Italia list as well, but with Young Pyromancer + Lingering Souls in addition to SFM and Bob to give a high density of must-answer two-drops.
I've recently been playtesting Grixis Delver / Grixis Tempo and that list runs 4 Young Pyromancers. Even with that list, running loads of 1CMC cantrips and bolts, stifles, etc; it's pretty random. I don't think this decks puts out enough 1 mana instants/sorceries to really benefit from that card optimally. While LS + YP looks awesome on paper, it is actually pretty slow. When I play him, I never really feel I am putting a real awesome threat on the table. However, it's not to say it can't work. I might playtest it myself, but I can't imagine it being better than the Grixis Tempo setup; which doesn't even impress me that much (the Young Pyromancer-portion of it, the rest I really dig!).

maharis
02-15-2014, 08:26 PM
This deck had back-to-back SCG top 8s last September, then fell off the radar. Is anyone playing it? Does anyone know why people gave up on it?

One of the builds used DRS and no Wastelands:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11710&iddeck=85726

The other had no DRS, ran Wasteland and had Aven Mindcensor:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11672&iddeck=85435

I honestly think a deck like this might be well positioned. Against TNN decks, a turn 1 Lavamancer backed up by other removal can keep them at bay until Liliana gets online and can force a TNN sacrifice. Gets red blasts and black and white hate out of the sideboard which seems good.

I think I'm going to start testing this. Any suggestions for sideboard?

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

ahg113
02-16-2014, 08:17 PM
If ever there is a deck to face roll opponents, or just die to your own pitiful draw...

The deck can be very good, is threat dense, yet relies a lot on luck of the draw. It does many things well, but nothing great. Ultimately, much to my chagrin, it's not playing the best color in magic. The deck is a good stuff B/W/R deck, which is adding all of the great support spells to blue, without the power of blue. Anything worth playing in these colors makes more sense in a blue deck. There are no great spells in these colors that can't be played in a blue deck.

4 cards are your only source of card advantage, and there's no way to protect Bob.
Many discard spells can slow opponent down, but can still lose to opponent's top-deck mode.
Creatures can become outclassed stat wise easily.
Fragile manabase if attacked.
Can run out of steam/not always enough reach.

That said, I'm a big fan of the deck, it's my go to. If you have something innovative, please share. It'd be great for another fair non-blue deck

Current list:

2 Lingering Souls
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Badlands
4 Scrubland
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution

uncletiggy
02-17-2014, 12:34 AM
Im not sure where to start on that list.. tymaret has to go hes poor in zombies and hes way more synergistic there so -1. Surgical is not worth maindecking unless you are on manna denial so -2 there. Spirit might warrent testing but for now im almost certain thats another -2 right off the bat. So 5 slots to work with +2 stoneforge +1 liliana right off the top the are high impact threats that can singlhandly win games. The last two spots are negotiable some combination of abrupt decay and zealous persecution will do you well.

As for the board holy hell rakdos charm×3 perish×3 no no no....

2 o ring
1 zealous persecution
2 wear/ tear
3 red elemental blast
1 engineered plague
2 rest in peace
2 thalia
1 ethersworn canonist
1 flex spot

You'll be so much more consistant and streamlined you'll naturally gain ca threw two for ones your window for victory will be short lived in most matches as you'll be outclassed in the lated game but you are in good shape versus everything as long as you mull properly and play tight good luck!

Megadeus
03-13-2014, 03:46 PM
Been thinking of trying this deck out. What is everyone's way to beat a TNN? I was thinking of maybe trying out Restoration Angels? It may be a bit high at 4 mana, but you can blick a SFM finding more equipment, save something from removal, or simply flash it in at eot to kill off a walker.

nedleeds
03-13-2014, 05:12 PM
Zealous, Edict, LotV, Celestial Flare, Red Blast on the stack, Pyroblast on the stack, E-Plague, I-Blood, Tariff, Holy Light, Outbreak, Cabal Therapy Naming It, Festercreep, Marsh Casualties, Orzhov Pontiff, Shrivel, EE, Geths Verdict.

Megadeus
03-13-2014, 09:30 PM
A rough list I may try out next week:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Dark Confidant
2 Restoration Angel

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Lingering Souls
1 Vindicate
1 Sword of FaI
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Thoughtseize

21 Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plateau
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

SB:
4x REB/Pyroblast
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize
2x Wear//Tear
4x Leyline of the Void (A lot of Loam/dredge in the meta)

nedleeds
03-14-2014, 02:11 PM
I die a little every time I see 3 x Dark Confidant. How about a 3 - 2 split Thoughtseize Cabal Therapy? 3 Souls, 1 Angel. Add the 4th Bob.

I think on the play your decks dream is. Point discard on removal. If they have removal after that then Sculler it. If not play a Dark Confidant and win.

uncletiggy
03-14-2014, 02:30 PM
Megadeus I can assure you the angels are not necessary theud be better served as discard m

Megadeus
03-14-2014, 04:55 PM
So basically I just want to play it like a dark confidant deck and just ride the card advantage to victory?

uncletiggy
03-14-2014, 05:31 PM
Thats pretty much exactly the plan you have no card selection so early discard plus early ca is key

nedleeds
03-14-2014, 08:56 PM
If you aren't playing Mother of Runes then I think yes you want a good shot at a 1CC discard in your opener. 5 1CCD and 4 DRS gives you a good shot at a turn one play. Even DRS pass (if they use removal so be it), into either Discard -> 2 drop or just 2 drop if they BoltTP'ed the shaman is about the best you can hope for.

Megadeus
03-14-2014, 09:27 PM
Hadn't thought of Mom. Seems good actually. Could take the pace of DRS

uncletiggy
03-14-2014, 10:31 PM
This is not the deck for mom, once you head down that road you're on deadguy. Mom supports threats she cant take their place

Esper3k
03-15-2014, 09:25 AM
I liked 2-3 Tops when I played around with Team Italian. It works well with Dark Confidant and Liliana plus of course letting you filter cards in a color combination that doesn't usually have the ability to do so.

nedleeds
03-15-2014, 01:46 PM
Hadn't thought of Mom. Seems good actually. Could take the pace of DRS

I wasn't advocating playing her in B/w/r I'm just saying the point discard fulfills a similar role. Protect your 2 drop. It also of course has game vs. combo. Often your mother just gets plowed, and that's OK despite the disruption to the family because Bob moves in the next turn and draws you a few cards. Mother is often called the white duress.

Megadeus
03-16-2014, 10:30 AM
That's fair. I wonder if Boros Reckoner could be used at all here? Doesnt seem like the worst thing in the world, though it really would just be for some beef since it doesn't really seem to shore up any weaknesses that this deck has

nedleeds
03-16-2014, 01:20 PM
Lingering Souls is kind of proxying for your 3 drop ... I think you need to decide if you want WW and BB in your deck. The better 3 drop creatures are XWW ... but you have Liliana in your list. Some other 3 XBB drops are like Vampire Nighthawk, Stillborn Cavalier, etc. nothing too interesting. I'll continue this discussion on the Tusk Boards.

Megadeus
03-16-2014, 02:14 PM
Lingering Souls is kind of proxying for your 3 drop ... I think you need to decide if you want WW and BB in your deck. The better 3 drop creatures are XWW ... but you have Liliana in your list. Some other 3 XBB drops are like Vampire Nighthawk, Stillborn Cavalier, etc. nothing too interesting. I'll continue this discussion on the Tusk Boards.

Yeah go write a dega mid range primer

Megadeus
03-16-2014, 05:19 PM
Lingering Souls is kind of proxying for your 3 drop ... I think you need to decide if you want WW and BB in your deck. The better 3 drop creatures are XWW ... but you have Liliana in your list. Some other 3 XBB drops are like Vampire Nighthawk, Stillborn Cavalier, etc. nothing too interesting. I'll continue this discussion on the Tusk Boards.

I was thinking about it and there is always Herald of Torment from BotG. I mean he is just 3 toughness Serendib Efreet with random upside if you decide to Bestow him at some random point, but meh. This is essentially why I wanted to include Restoration Angel. It is single white, 3 power so it battles nicely, flies over with a sword or Jitte, and can flash in to ambush a planeswalker.

ahg113
03-17-2014, 02:37 PM
I agree with Uncle Tiggy, Mom isn't where you want to go, and the Angel seems misplaced. Low curves are best in life, so you can do multiple things as the game progresses. Angel seems cute, as opposed to just mauling someone's hand, or dropping so many Bob's, Grim's and DRS' you can just inch the way to a win. I've found that 3 Lili is one too many, great card for what we want to do, but just gets clunky. Like Esper mentioned, a SDT or two are great with Bob and in general with fetches. Depends on your level of comfort to durdle on if to include. I like to "turn guys sideways", so I dropped SDT. Haven't really missed it. I also highly recommend using Batterskull in your suite. I'm a bigger fan of Batterskull than Sword F&I. Races better, harder to answer.

Not a fan of Herlad. At 5 mana, I'd rather be doing something else than bestowing. Also the life loss, as it sits currently is coming from multiple sources, Bob, Thoughtseize, fetches and this guy, with no Batterskull in sight. This deck doesn't typically blitz to a fast win, seems as if it might clock itself.

Also not big on Diabolic Edict. The sweeper effect of Zealous or Pontif are stronger. If a solo edict effect beyond Lili is what you're looking for, Gatekeeper makes more sense. All the value you can squeeze out of dudes, the better. Bolt and STP should be able to clear the path so the proper critter gets sac'd.

Not really sure the deck needs a three drop beyond Lili or L.Souls. The only other accepted card I can think of that seemed to do good work is Mirran Crusader, at 4 mana there is Hero of Bladehold and Elspeth (or even B/W Sorin).

Never a big fan of singletons either in a deck like this, cause Bob isn't always there to make it rain and SDT isn't an auto-include. Vindicate is a strong card, but I think a poor choice. Between Wastelands and Bolts/Lili, what are you trying to kill? SB option for game 2 is the place to find your answers. And like Nedleeds, the Bob count should be 4, because Bob = awesome. And decks with more awesome, typically do better.

Very interested in your experiences. I jammed this deck back in February at the Bazaar of Moxen qualifier, got mid to low 20s with a 4-3 record. Cruised at x-1 for most the day then lost to reanimator 1-2 and Belcher 0-2. Losing to Belcher was much more satisfying, the reanimator player was a dick, shuffled away my O-Ring which would've won me the game/match... SDT would've been nice.

Megadeus
03-17-2014, 06:19 PM
The list I posted is not really based on any experience with this deck in particular. Just saw this was a pretty dead thread and decided to share my ideas with anyone who was interested.

Tyrio
03-17-2014, 06:57 PM
Yeah, Resto Angel doesn't seem good here. She doesn't really interact with anyone but Sculler and that interaction is super awkward unless you also awkwardly have 6 mana.

Diabolic Edict seems okay as a hedge against SneakNStd or allowing you to occasionally race Marit Lage. Gatekeeper is definitely a very strong man right now if you can avoid the Daze, but triple black here might be pretty prohibitive without Durdlerite Shaman. If you want Gatekeeper you probably just want to play Deadguy.

I wonder if Deadguy isn't just a better configuration at this point; it seems like the only reason to be splashing red is for Red Blast. Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt can be probably be adequately substituted via Disfigure, Gatekeepers and more discard. Off the top of my head right now the only things Bolt kills that Disfigure doesn't is Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger and double Merfolk lords. I suppose if there are a critical mass of Insectile Aberrations or Elvesies mucking about though Lavamancer is quite good.

SirTylerGalt
03-18-2014, 11:53 AM
Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt can be probably be adequately substituted via Disfigure, Gatekeepers and more discard. Off the top of my head right now the only things Bolt kills that Disfigure doesn't is Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger and double Merfolk lords.


You forgot that bolt kills:
- your opponent
- his planeswalkers