[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Tao]

The deck Nic Fit is based on the interaction between Veteran Explorer, Green Sun's Zenith and Cabal Therapy in combination with classic Rock style control elements, big threats and removal. Because many people asked and speculated: Its name comes from a Sonic Youth song that I was listening to when I named the deck. If you were a smoker you also might get the desire to smoke while playing a tournament because you will often play long rounds but mostly I just found "Nic Fit" to be a good name for this deck.

The general philosophy of the deck is to go over the top of the metagame and win by out-controlling the opponent and/or outclassing his cards. This could be for example sweeping the opponent's board with Pernicious Deed, playing a huge Scapeshift for 18+ damage, keeping a Jace alive for a few turns or forcing the opponent to trade with a Thragtusk.

In general the biggest strength of the deck is the matchup against "fair" decks (Aggro, Control) and its biggest weakness is against Combo decks, especially those that are Show and Tell based.

There are different versions of this deck but before I introduce those versions I will describe the core cards to give you an idea of what the deck tries to do.

Card Choices

4 Veteran Explorer
The deck does not require to resolve an Explorer to win but similar to Aether Vial in Merfolk it is usually a great card and almost unbeatable for certain decks.
If you are new to the deck you might be scared that the opponent also gets free lands but fortunately the symmetry can be broken. The mana curves of many decks have become so low that they can't do much with free basic lands. Decks like Dredge or RUG Delver don't even play any basics at all while other decks are so tightly constructed and low-curved that they will have a hard time using the extra Mana. And against the plethora of Legacy resource denial decks (RUG, Team America, Staxx, Pox, 43 lands, Dragon Stompy, ...) that would otherwise be the bane of top heavy decks getting two basic lands is the best effect you could ask for.
There are two ways to trigger Explorer. Against aggro you can use him as a chump blocker to get a few extra life out of the deal. Most of the times the better way is to sacrifice it with cards like Cabal Therapy or Phyrexian Tower (or a few other effects) though. This way you can gain some extra value out of his death and sacrificing it in your turn also has the advantage that you are the first one to use the extra lands - note that the lands enter the battlefield untapped.

4 Cabal Therapy
The main reason to play four of these is of course the synergy with Veteran Explorer. But even without Explorer Therapies are still good. They can create card advantage by sacrificing a creature with an EtB effect like Eternal Witness. Therapy also trumps cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Goblin Matron because you can snipe the thing they tutored for. For tournament play it is imperative to practice how to play against Brainstorm with Therapies because there are plenty of interactions and mind-games going on when you play against a player with Brainstorm in his deck who has blue Mana up. In general it is correct to name Brainstorm first so you can ensure that they can't respond with a Brainstorm to the Flashback of the Therapy but of course there are exceptions to that rule.

4 Green Sun's Zenith
The Green Zenith is the glue that sticks the deck together. Early in the game it boosts your Mana, later it lets you take full advantage of the Extra Mana. It helps the deck's consistency by balancing between threats and early ramp. Currently all popular versions play 4 GSZ and I would not suggest to go below that number.
For the early game you should have at least one Mana generating creature like Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sylvan Ranger that doesn't die to Removal for cases in which you don't want to give the opponent lands or you have drawn no way to sacrifice your Explorer.

A mandatory ability for a creature that Nic Fit runs is that it doesn't just die to Swords to Plowshares or gets bounced by Jace without giving value. You don't have many options to actually draw cards so your creatures should not trade one for one. EtB/LtB effects or Shroud/Hexproof are good ways to achieve this goal. Even great cards like Knight of the Reliquary are not playable for that reason. When you GSZ for the Knight on turn 4+ it is very likely that the opponent will have a Swords to Plowshares or an Abrupt Decay sitting in his hand because he has no other targets for his Removal and you will just end up activating one of his otherwise dead/bad cards.

Birthing Pod lists often reduce the number of Green Sun's Zenith or cut it completely because they require a certain number of actual creatures (instead of a "spell creature" like GSZ) to function.

1-3 Eternal Witness should be in every deck, too, because the games tend to get long so you will have a lot of cards to choose from. On top of that she is rarely a bad card to draw and synergizes well with Cabal Therapy.

1 Thrun, the Last Troll; Sigarda, Host of Herons
Thrun should also be played by every deck once. Its effect is unique and can give Jace decks big problems. White versions can upgrade Thrun to Sigarda who is even better because she can fly over chump-blockers that protect Jace, block Delver of Secrets, trade with Tombstalker and negates Edict effects like Liliana.

Pod lists usually don't play Thrun because they want value creatures to keep the Pod chain going and because they often don't run GSZ.

1-2 Thragtusk
Every version should play at least one Tusk. It is very good against aggro decks as well as Jace decks and you can't ask for much more from a card.

1 Primeval Titan
Every deck should also have at least one big GSZ target that costs 6 or 7 Mana. You can also play even two of them but not more or you end up with bad starting hands). This card has should have the function to act as an engine and overwhelm the opponent. Currently Primeval Titan is the fattie of choice for most versions. But it is also possible to search for non-green cards with Fierce Empath but that is much slower.

Again, Pod lists

2-4 Pernicious Deed; x Abrupt Decay
Deed is a key card of the archetype. Like in typical Rock decks it resets the board so you can survive against Aggro as well as getting rid of problematic Enchantments or Artifacts.
Decay is a super effective removal spell and deals with a lot of stuff that you might lose to if you leave it alive even for a few turns from Dark Confidant to Sylvan Library as well as with early aggressive creatures like Delver of Secrets or Tarmogoyf and it is an out against lock pieces like Rest in Peace or Counterbalance.

Sensei's Divining Top;Brainstorm

Card filtering is important for a deck that is as non-linear as Nic Fit. You want Explorers and Therapies early, but GSZ's, Deeds and Planeswalkers and Fatties later and not even all of them in every matchup. Top gives you just that. my personal advice would be to play FOUR Tops in every non-blue version but most decks play 3. Blue versions can of course play Brainstorm which fills the same role and is the best card in the format.



The three most popular Nic Fit versions at this time are:

Scapewish (by Arianrhod)

Scapewish is one the most popular versions at this time. The big strength is that it can kill the opponent out of nowhere from any board position with a big Scapeshift as long as you have 7 lands (or 8-9 depending on your opponent's life total - but usually 7 is enough) on the table. This is a huge advantage because many decks don't have enough counters to prevent Scapeshift from happening because you can force it through with Cabal Therapies and/or Burning Wishes for disruption and thanks to your defense they can't kill you quick enough either. Having Valakut in your deck makes your Primeval Titan also very dangerous.
This comes not without a cost though. The mana base is the worst of all versions (it plays 2 lands more than other versions and additional creature mana sources on top of that and it also can't afford to run fetchlands) and the SB is crammed full with Burning Wish targets so games 2 and 3 are more difficult.

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster Of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift

SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Collective Voyage
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Virtue’s Ruin
1 Reverent Silence



BUG Pod by Caleb Durwald / list by Daid Gleicher

Creatures (24)

4 Baleful Strix
1 Acidic Slime
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves

Lands (21)

3 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (15)

3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
3 Riptide Pilferer
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Envelop
4 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize


These lists use Birthing Pod to trigger the ETB and leaves battlefield abilities of the creatures it plays. An activation of Pod usually creates two advantages. The first is creating card advantage by for example chaining a simple Baleful Strix into Eternal Witness into Murderous Redcap into Thragtusk into Grave Titan. The second advantage is the tutor effect. For example on 4 mana you can get Murderous Redcap to shoot a DR Shaman / Delver or you can get a Sower of Temptation to gain control of something big (and then potentially sac it to Pod or Cabal Therapy) or you can get a Glen-Elendra Archmage against Combo decks /to prevent an impending Terminus.

Pod lists also have a few disadvantages. The first is the high number of 1-offs which gives the deck higher inconsistency than other versions. Another one are the restrictions on deck building. You are forced to run a much higher number of creatures than other versions and you are also forced to cover all converted mana costs from 2-5 multiple times.

Punishing Nic Fit : by Tao, HoneyT, Rabrab,

So I made a lot of test games with Punishing Nic Fit for the past days, optimized the version and wrote a little primer including matchups and SB plans for the decks in the DTB section. I feel very confident about the card choices and the strength of the deck in the current Meta.

Decklist:

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sylvan Ranger
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless


About the deck:

Punishing Nic Fit is a pure pure Control deck. It plays a lot of board and hand control elements and strives for conistency, card advantage and a powerful late game.

The first reason to play with Punishing Fire is of course the Punishing Fire - Grove of the Burnwillows Combo. In general getting value out of lands is an effect that Nic Fit desires because it helps you to do stuff with your mana and acts as flood protection. It kills the plethora of great 1-drops and 2-drops, keeps Tribal decks under control and gains value over the course of the game. Very importantly it also answers Planeswalkers, especially Jace TMS, who can be very problematic for Nic Fit.
The second reason to play this version are the Red Elemental Blasts and Slaughter Games from the Sideboard. They are exactly the cards you want to optimize your Sideboard plans and no other version of Nic Fit has SB cards as good as these. The biggest problems Nic Fit has are Combo decks and Jace the Mind Sculptor and the red SB cards help to fight these.

In the early game this version maximizes the chance of finding and triggering a Veteran Explorer with 4 Top and 4 Punishing Fire. It is not ideal to trigger Explorer with Punishing Fire but it will do if you need it. It also allows you to play no other mana creatures in the main that would either be inferior (Sakura Tribe Elder, Sylvan Ranger) or get killed 3/4 of the time (DR Shaman). Just don't blindly ramp against decks with Jace without anything to follow up, especially against Miracles.

In the midgame you have the full amount of Sensei's Tops to make sure you draw the right ratio of mana and spells as well as the right type of spells. As a nonblue ramp deck this is very important because draws with 3 Explorers are as bad as draws with too little mana. You have a lot of removal to make sure you can keep the board under control. You have Fire and Decay to get rid of early Confidants, Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Deed as a reset button and Liliana can act as additional removal or kill things like Tombstalker or Progenitus that you otherwise can't kill. Liliana of the Veil is very good in this list in general. Her Discard ability is great against Miracle decks and Combo decks and less harmful for this than it is for other Nic Fit lists because you can Discard Punishing Fire to her. The 4 Tops and the high chance of getting Explorer to trigger allows you to empty your hand quickly in case you don't have the Combo. Forcing both players into topdeck mode is not a bad thing, especially if you have a Top, tick up a Liliana and strong cards in your deck.

As GSZ targets for the midgame you have either Huntmaster as a simple solid value guy, Thrun to pressure Planeswalkers or Witnesses to recycle Removal or Discard spells.

In the late game this version is designed to win with Primeval Titan. Your main way of sealing the deal against fair decks is to get a Titan into play. He will get a combination of Kessig Wolf Run, Two Towers and Groves for your Punishing Fires. Unless you are too far behind already a resolved Titan should be better than anything other fair decks do. Groves and Two Towers are good at grinding out the game while Kessig Wolf Run will turn Thrun into an evil machine and kill the opponent very quickly.


Matchups:


Miracles

- the game plays out different than other fair matchups because with Jace TMS and Entreat they have big threats, too. So don't use your Explorers carelessly or they will backfire. In G1 you usually want to trigger an Explorer with Therapy at least once but do it a bit later, more carefully and when you know you have a strong follow-up.
- Top is awesome, keep it around, don't lose it to Counterbalance. Don't risk flipping it for no good reason.
- Spend your early turns building up towards your game plans. Decay and Deed are important to keep Counterbalance off the table, try to get a Liliana into play.
- Liliana is amazing. They have a hard time dealing with her. If you have Fire-Grove going that's ideal but even if you don't, build up to her ultimate.
- Use Fire/Grove and Thrun to pressure/kill Jace.
- If you are able to take control of the game try to have a Deed in play to not lose to Entreat the Angels.

Postboard you have a bit of a transformational SB plan. You take out all your Explorers and Therapies because ramping both sides is not that good. There is a Sylvan Ranger in the SB so you have a way to get Mana from early GSZ's. You get Red Blasts which are awesome in this matchup because they can kill Jace on the stack as well as Slaughter Games to take care of their win conditions (Jace and Entreat).

- 4 Explorer
- 4 Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Punishing Fire
- 1 Phyrexian Tower
+ 4 Red Blast
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 1 Decay
+ 1 Garruk Relentless


RUG
This matchup is almost exclusively about overcoming their Mana Denial. Stifle is the by far their best card against us because it hits Explorer triggers, Deeds and Fetchlands. Cabal Therapy should usually either go for Brainstorm or for Stifle, depending on the situation.
The matchup is very positive overall. Explorers are great against their denial plan and the deck approximately has one removal for each threat they play.
Post board not much changes, but it gets even a little better. You don't get any insane cards but little upgrades. This is the only matchup in which you side out Huntmaster because he doesn't size up well against their deck. Red Blast can slow down their cantripping, kill a Delver of protect a trigger from Stifle.
Normal RUG lists don't have much to bring in, they might bring Submerge instead of Bolt so if you use a fetchland with an Explorer in play they might shuffle it away, so play around that if you have the chance to but don't worry too much.

- 1 Huntmaster of the Fells
- 3 Punishing Fire
- 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast


Shardless
They are stronger early on but you have the better late game. It is often about recovering from Hymn and Liliana and building up your Mana. You can overcome some card disadvantage with card quality. Your goal is to resolve a Titan so you can go over the top of what they do. Fire-Grove can kill eveything except Goyfs so that is good.
This is one of the few matchups in which you side out your Lilianas. Her discard doesn't match up well against Ancestral Visions, her Edict ability is bad against Shardless Agents and she dies to Decay. Red Blast is great because it can hit Vision, Jace and Brainstorm.

- 1 Eternal Witness
- 2 Thoughtseize
- 3 Liliana of the Veil
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast


SnT
Preboard is your worst matchup besides 12-Post or Stage/Depths Combo decks, though with 3 Thoughtseizes and 3 Lilianas you have the Tools to steal G1 wins from them.
Postboard it gets much better, the matchup gets at least even. Red Blast and Slaughter Games are amazing. They bring in the White Leyline so side in the Golgari Charms for that. Charm can also hit idle Sneak Attacks which are not uncommon and a great danger if you manage to keep them on 0 cards with Liliana. The White Leyline is obviously very strong against us but that is not the biggest concern. It is their matchup to lose. If they Mulligan for it, have Multiples or keep bad hands because of it you might be able to win with Red Blasts, Surgicals and Liliana.

- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 3 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
- 1 Stronghold
+ 4 Red Blast
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Surgical
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Elves!
You play Fire and Deed so the matchup isn't the worst but it is certainly not easy either. They can kill you with Glimpse and Order quickly and Symbiote can also get out of control quickly. But if you survive the early turns and you get Fire/Grove going you are in a good position. Liliana is an important tool here because her "+1" ability prevents them from storing Elves and then going off with a topdecked Glimpse. Her Edict can also be useful as simple extra removal but more importantly to get rid off a big thing they GSZ'ed for. Sideboarding doesn't change much but it you get a couple of nice cards.

- 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Explorer
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay


Jund
The matchup plays very similar to the Shardless matchup. Jund might overrun you with DR Shaman, Hymn, Confidant and Liliana but you have tools to fight back. If the game goes long and nothing went wrong you should have an edge because thanks to Titan you have more Fire/Grove and because with Two Towers + Thragtusk you won't die.
Post board not much changes because both decks have not much useful to bring in. You should side out the Lilianas, they are awful against Jund.

- 3 Liliana of the Veil
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay


AnT
Similarly to SnT decks you can steal wins in G1 but it is not easy. The key cards are your Discard spells, Liliana and Scavenging Ooze.
G2 gets much, much better. More Discard and more disruption instead of the many clunky cards from G1. The Red Blasts slow down their cantripping, especially the Brainstorm in response to Discard. For Empty the Warrens you keep the Deeds in. They are better than Golgari Charm because they can't be discarded anymore once they are on the battlefield and they can blow up idle LED's and Petals (which are not a rare sight due to Liliana).

- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold
- 1 Thrun, the Lats Troll
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Primeval Titan
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Death and Taxes
This is not a bye like it looks on paper but you do have a clear edge and should be able to kill all their creatures with Fire, Decay, Liliana and Deed.
Post board the matchup gets a bit worse. They bring Rest in peace which is very good but most importantly they have Cataclysm which is the real threat. Be aware of that and - if you have the chance to do so - keep lands in hand, Basic Lands in the deck and an Explorer on the battlefield. On the other hand you get Golgari Charm which is also a blowout (it kills Mother or Runes, Thalia, Revoker, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp and Mangara).

- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Deathblade
They want to play a fair game but you are better at that than they are. Punishing Fire kills everything they have, Therapy is great against Stoneforge Mystic and Deeds are also great. If the game goes long you have the better late game thanks to your Titan.
Post board not much changes. Red Blasts are okay, they get Jace and Brainstorm, but I don't think you want all 4 because they do nothing early on against Shaman, Mystic and Confidant. They won't have anything that is significantly better than any of their maindeck cards, either. Side out all Lilianas at the first sight of Lingering Souls.

+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Liliana of the Veil

Other versions:

There are COUNTLESS different versions of the deck and ways to build and play it, too many to list and describe in detail. If you are a new player to the deck I would advice you to try out one of those three versions first so you know what they can do which gives you a better idea what you have to do while experimenting.

A good way to measure the competitiveness of a list is the ability to deal with Jace TMS. Scapewish can go over the top of Jace TMS by resolving one big lethal spell, Birthing Pod can potentially outvalue Jace and Punishing Fire itself is good at dealing with Jace (as well as the Red Blasts from the SB).

[sco0ter]

I love your deck, since I run a very similar one.

I considered Birthing Pod for it, for it's synergy with Explorer and CIP creatures.
Would have to build a little bit more around it though.

Although GSZ is probably more powerful, at least in the early game.

What do you think?

[Koby]

There was an old PW Rock list from a few years back that ran much more 'walkers. Is there any consideration for running Elspeth in here? What about Shriekmaw (for it's interaction with R.Nightmare), or even Fleshbag Marauder. While it's not tutorable, it's still very useful. What about Kitchen Finks both to shore up against aggro, and provide Persist synergies with Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare?

[Philipp2293]

Hi, how do you estimate your UW Gerry T Style MU? I know that Thrun is a major pain for them, but how is the MU alltogether?

[Tao]

Multiple Shriekmaw and one Kitchen Finks were in the main deck a while ago (as well as a 2nd and 3rd Recurring Nightmare). The SB Maw is a remnant of that. The deck was originally GB but after a lot of test games in which I never (not once) made the Recurring Nightmare / Shriekmaw stunt but had a few losses against Tombstalker and Master of Etherium I came to the conclusion that the deck just wants Swords to Plowshares so I added White. Finks are only in the sideboard because you want to keep your cards that can get dominated at a minimum. They are a bad or mediocre draw in the majority of the matchups and they are no key target for GSZ like KotR or Goyf.
With Elspeth I was worried about having the double White Mana but she is certainly a card to consider

Birthing Pod is interesting. I do no want to dismiss it because it certainly has potential and is good with Explorer but it seems to me that it requires just a bit too mcuh setup and mana / life investment.

The matchup against Landstill resolves around a few key cards and beatdown is usually irrelevant. Landstill has Jace, sometimes Elspeth, as their heavy threats and you have a hard time keeping them off the table. The more Elspeths they have, the worse for you, but I think GerryT doesn't play any.
On the other hand most LS versions cannot beat a resolved Karn, pre or postboard. Karn comes close to a 7 Mana Sorcery that reads "You win the game". It enters the battlefield, either exiles a Factory or a Planeswalker or goes to 10 loyalty and then they are screwed. And with 4 Therapies + 3 Thoughtseizes + 3 Witnesses + 4 GSZ for Witness you have good odds of resolving it if the game goes long. On top of that like you mentioned Thrun is a total pain for them, this matchup is the main reason why I want 2 of them in the main with a third in the side. Postboard games get strictly bette, with Grips/Vindicates, another Thrun and additional Discard instead of Swords and Spike Weaver while they can't really side all that much.

[sco0ter]

The deck was originally GB but after a lot of test games in which I never (not once) made the Recurring Nightmare / Shriekmaw stunt but had a few losses against Tombstalker and Master of Etherium I came to the conclusion that the deck just wants Swords to Plowshares so I added White.

Hm, I'd play something like this to deal with them, rather then adding white just for Swords. (And Pernicious Deed should win against the Etherium deck easily)


Doom Blade
Go for the Throat
Dismember
Troll Ascetic
Thrun, the Last Troll

[nayon]

Regarding your matchups, High Tide seems terrible. Not sure about other kinds of combo.

[Tao]

White Splash: I added White because Swords to Plowshares are so much better than the alternatives that a splash strenghtens the deck overall. StoP is strictly superior (well 95%) because unlike its black alternatives it has no restrictions (Artifact/Black/Toughness), exiles the threat for good and most importantly only costs one Mana. When your plan is to Eternal Witness for Removal and GSZ for Witness for Removal the differences in Mana cost start to pile up and when the games go long odds are not bad that you will run into the wrong threat for the Removal in your hand.

High Tide matchup: If you know early enough that you play against High Tide don't sacrifice the Explorer unless you have a good reason. The plan is to draw a good amount of discard, preferably Therapies, and replay it with Witnesses. Postboard it gets almost even, but with the negative G1 you are quite far behind overall. But considering that most other matchups are positive this is okay.

[Tinefol]

I'd consider the Diabolic Intent, Kitchen Finks, Black and White Titans as an options.

A guy in my area is developing this deck for a while and currently plays this list:


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [B] Bayou
2 [P3] Swamp (3)
2 [P3] Plains (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [B] Savannah
4 [P3] Forest (2)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [UD] False Prophet
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [M11] Sun Titan
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [M11] Grave Titan
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [PS] Diabolic Intent
2 [ARL] Maelstrom Pulse

[Philipp2293]

I think that diabolic intent is a clever choice. So you guys never thought about adding some kind of library manipulation? Maybe that's just me, but in testing i've got into quite a few topdeck wars. But then again, a topdecked zenith often meant gg.

[Brushwagg]

A couple of us in Syracuse have been fooling around with simular builds to this. This is close to what I've been running.

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Sun Titan

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed

2x Garruk Wildspeaker

4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Wasteland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Swamp
3x Plains
3x Forest

SB:

1x Bojuka Bog
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Krosan Grip
3x Wrath of God
3x Extirpate
4x Open Slots

What I've found is GSZ isn't that great in my list.

The deck want to get Deed with Sun Titan. When the deck is rolling it's totally unfair.

The problem I've been running into is after a week or two people don't block Veteran Explorer and don't swing into it because they've found out it leads to bad things for them.

[Tao]

That is a lot of quality input, nice lists Tinefol and Burshwagg. Good enough that atm I couldn't say what the right choices are.
I am not sure about Sensei Top (aka library manipulation). I also lost games because I didn't draw anymore gas but I won most top deck wars. I felt that with GSZ and the high end cards just drawing one card with Wall of Blossoms was better for 2 Mana.
I had Grave Titan in and it was okay. It is quite hard to tell which kill is better between Titans and Karn. Like I said Karn was very impressive for me. But I also forgot that Sun Titan could return Deeds (thought only about creatures) which is as some say a big game. I am not sure about the kill conditions. Karn, Elspeth, Sun Titan, Grave Titan and Garruk all have advantages.
I do not like the card Diabolic Intent but that doesn't mean it is bad and shouldn't be played. It gives flexibility in the choice of your win conditions and finding Therapy or Deed or Swords is crucial in certain matchups.

Another card I just thought of when I wrote this is Innocent Blood. It is 1cc Removal, handles the Emrakul/Progenitus problem and synergizes with our Explorer.

[Brushwagg]

That is a lot of quality input, nice lists Tinefol and Burshwagg. Good enough that atm I couldn't say what the right choices are.
I am not sure about Sensei Top (aka library manipulation). I also lost games because I didn't draw anymore gas but I won most top deck wars. I felt that with GSZ and the high end cards just drawing one card with Wall of Blossoms was better for 2 Mana.


Thank you. This list isn't the most current though. I can't remember if I eneded up cutting Top but pretty much the core is the same. Innocent Blood can be pretty good in the deck. I was playing Diabolic Edict for the Show and Tell decks.

@Garruk: I like beacause he survives Deeds and can help accel the deck even more. Plus I found the deck needed something to put pressure on the board at times.

@Elspeth:I use her more in the control match. Vs. aggro she has been less then stellar.

@Intent:I wouldn't be to fast to write it off. That seems like some hot tech. It sacs the Explorer regaurdless if it's countered.

[kiblast]

Chameleon Colossus screams GG against Merfolk with probably one or two combat phase. Considering the mana ramp you are able to do, it is easily a 12/12 14/14 unblockable attacker if the Merfolk player has 1 LoA and 1-2 random lords on the table. Colossus it's also a very good beater on its own, but probably that spot is already in the hands of Thrun. A very good SB card against Merfolk anyway (considering that nowadays they play 3 Dismember in sb....pro black is nuts against them.)

[ScatmanX]

I really like this concept!
Has anyone tried Reveillark to return Witness/Reliquary/Quasali/Bone Shreder/etc?

[kiblast]

I really like this concept!
Has anyone tried Reveillark to return Witness/Reliquary/Quasali/Bone Shreder/etc?

+1. Reveillark is probably even better than any other wincon suggested, and better than any Titan.It's synergistic with Cabal Therapy and Diabolic Intent, it is a nice evasive beater, plus evoking Reveillark and eot Volrath Stronghold it on top is so good that is win more :D

[Nidd]

+1. Reveillark is probably even better than any other wincon suggested, and better than any Titan.It's synergistic with Cabal Therapy and Diabolic Intent, it is a nice evasive beater, plus evoking Reveillark and eot Volrath Stronghold it on top is so good that is win more :D
Sun Titan enables a Deed lock, which kills Aggro dead.

I've played against a very similiar deck some time ago, he played Fauna Shaman to tutor for his creatures - I think that's worth looking into.

[eq.firemind]

So it looks like you all using Deed mostly as an answer to (swarm) aggro.
This leads me to an idea: remove Deeds and add Stoneforge package.
Mystic + Batterskull is great thing to capitalize on mana you have from Explorer since if opp kills the kor, you still have mana to slam down the skull. And it seems to be good as your normal 2-drop.
Something like:
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull

Switch to Vindicate/Pulse and toys for Thrun allow you to opposite Jace.decks more efficiently and still not lose to random artifacts and enchantments. Oh, and Batterskull breaks Humility in half.
Glissa looks worth testing in this list since she is Zenithable, holds most attackers at bay, carries equips like champ and can bring your toys back.

[Brushwagg]

Reveillark is probably even better than any other wincon suggested, and better than any Titan.

Reveillark can only get back creatures and it does this only once unless you have reanimate it. Sun Titan does it when it comes into play and when it attacks. Plus it's any permanent not just craetures.

There is a ton ways this deck can go. For a while I was running Natural Order with Progs, Terastodon, and Woodfall Primus in the SB. I do still like Deed, even though it can't deal with Planeswalkers, it deals with everything else and if need be you can board the Pulses or Vindicates.

[Tao]

I think the way to go is a pure control deck. Playing beatdown with fat guys like Goyf and KotR has often left me in a bad spot because many opponents will just deal with them 1 for 1 and follow that with cards that either create CA or outtempo you but they can't 1 for 1 you if all you play are CiP creatures. Eternal Witness is the card I want to draw and GSZ for most of the time so I went up to 4.

Planeswalker are a huge pain. Atm I win clearly more than half of my matches in testing but most of the losses are either fast Combo or Planeswalker. Combo has to be dealt with Teeg + Discard from the Sideboard but for the Planeswalkers I added 2 Maelstrom Pulses to the main for 2 Deeds and a third Pulse in the Side. Changing to a more aggressive style only because of Planeswalkers is not worth it. btw I forgot that Pulse existed, it is clearly better than Vindicate because of the easier Mana so I replaced it in the OP.

And I agree that the initial list is a bit too bad at topdecking. The deck probably wants 2-3 Sensei's Tops and 2-3 additional big guns instead of most of the GSZ one-offs. Atm I think Grave Titan is the best choice for the big threat because it is the most reliable. It doesn't need White Mana and it does not rely on having good stuff in the graveyard like Sun Titan (or Lark). I am also still very convinced of Karn as the other win condition because it dominates problematic stuff like other Planeswalkers, Moat or Humility.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I'm glad that I found this thread. Here's a deck that I was working on a few months ago that is very similar to what is being talked about here. I've called it Titan Rock. Sun Titan lock with deed is pretty much unbeatable by any aggro deck. I stopped playing it because combo became too popular and this deck has a hard time with combo. I'm about to play it this weekend in the SCG Indianapolis open though. This is my list currently which may change slightly by then. I'm really like the idea of innocent blood as a further way to sac explorer and control the board.

3 Sun Titan
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords To Plowshares

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Extirpate
4 Duress
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict

The sideboard is weak and will probably have a third teeg and maybe more combo hate. I like the idea of green sun zenith, but it just doesn't seem to fit right. My main focus is the get the Swords out of their hands, deed then drop sun titan FTW. I like reveilark as it seems good but haven't been able to figure out how to fit it. Knight is here for acceleration as well as an alternate beater/win condition.

[eq.firemind]

I think the way to go is a pure control deck. Playing beatdown with fat guys like Goyf and KotR has often left me in a bad spot because many opponents will just deal with them 1 for 1 and follow that with cards that either create CA or outtempo you but they can't 1 for 1 you if all you play are CiP creatures.
Since you lowered the number of Deeds, try Mystic package. Turn 3 Batterskull is a nice aggro stopper.


And I agree that the initial list is a bit too bad at topdecking. The deck probably wants 2-3 Sensei's Tops and 2-3 additional big guns instead of most of the GSZ one-offs.
Think of it: when you Swords a Nacatl, you spend 1 mana, opp spent 1 mana. Now, you send KotR farming. Your net income is 2 mana.
Now, you Counterspell something. Most likely it's not turn 1, so you countered something that costed 2 or more mana. Again, your mana income is most likely >0.
Now Thoughtseize. You spend 1 mana, opponent spends 0. So you just gained him tempo (and often it's early game, where you want to steal tempo from faster deck).
This leads me to conclusion that spot discard is bad against anything that is faster than you. Since you're control, that's the majority of opponents. Also, spot discard is bad topdeck mid-late game. Cabal Therapy is the only exclusion since it enables your neat Explorer shenanigans.
I encourage you to try more threats/answers instead of Thoughtseize (check the list provided by Tinefol). This will improve you topdecks so you'd worry less about manipulation.

EDIT: In the end it's all about how to abuse Explorer+sacrifice stuff better. Green Sun's Zenith is certanly a viable option, but I'll try some Buried Alive/Intuition+Vengevine shenanigans.
EDIT 2: Also, this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16650-Planeswalker-Rock&highlight=planeswalker+rock) gives viable Explorer control approach too.

[Tao]

@firemind: Discard is universally good. Inquisitioning a Wild Nacatl or a KotR is not as good as removing it, but removal will not help vs. most Combo decks or Landstill. I also already play 4 StoP and every other spot creature removal pales in comparison to it. Drawing discard is very much needed against every deck with counter magic to make sure that you have juicy Eternal Witness targets and that your big threat resolves and every Discard spell improves the Combo matchup.

For the general strategy of the deck: I want to push this into a very controllish direction. The reason for that is I would often lose games because my opponent had spot removal for my KotR and a Goyf and then I ran out of cards while my opponent plays a Jace / Standstill / Brainstorm. Therefore I removed all 1 for 1 creatures in favor of cards that create card advantage. I had to cut GSZ because like Magicsk8ngenius it just didn't fit right. I assumed with Recurring Nightmare, Cabal Therapy and green creatures it would be an auto include but somehow it is not. Which is unfortunate because the thread has Zenith in the title but what can you do. Maybe it gets added back later but atm I like my list extremely well.

It goes well against every deck in the current DtB section. Painterstone is at least even, probably better (couldn't test too much yet) because of all the Removal and Discard. Merfolk, Zoo and Stoneforge Mystic decks have a hard time against Deed plus Wall of Blossoms plus Witness on Swords and none of them can really benefit from Explorer. Against Team America Explorer shines as bright as it gets though Hymns are a pain in the butt. The matchup usually resolves around how many Hymns they can fire at you. It also does quite well against Landstill.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [LRW] Forest (2)
2 [R] Bayou
4 [LRW] Swamp (3)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [6E] Plains (2)
1 [U] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [U] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] [ROE] Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize / Duress (so you have 4 Thoughtseizes post board)
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 2 [M11] Liliana Vess (really good. comes in vs. Control as addional big gun and against Combo so that they can't topdeck into wins so easily after you run out of the initial discard)

[Brushwagg]

Been doing some work on a list to start testing.

4x BOP
3x Explorer
2x Witness
2x Pridemage
4x KoTR
2x Sun Titan
1x Primeval Titan/open slot

4x STP
3x Deed
3x Diabolic Intent

1x Elspeth
1x Lilliana Vess
1x Garruk

4x Cabal Therapy

1-2x Open slots for card draw(Bob/Harmonize) or Finks.

4x Windswept Heath
4x Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Stronghold
1x Tower
1x Wasteland
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp

[kiblast]

@Brushwagg: Why no GSZ? Also that Primeval Titan could be Thrun, as it randomly wins games vs blue based control (and we rarely suffer Innocent Blood which is played by UBG landeed). How are the Bops performing? In my opinion you don't want to topdeck them later and they are pretty useless since you will blow up Deeds for the win since turn 3. Also since you are already playing the full set of KotR, is it possible to fit a Karakas, maybe in place of a fetchland?

Edit: I found that this deck wants some late game support like Recurring Nightmare and Tops. In my build I play 2 Tops and 1 Recurring. I understand that Recurring is slow as hell and good only in the very late game (although Explorer can put you in late game istantly), but no love for Sensei's Divining Top in here? In my testing it has been wonderful (as it is in the 99% of the times you decide to sleeve it up).

[sco0ter]

I am still working on this deck, too, but rather from a casual point of view.

One card I recently discovered is Viridian Emissary. Could it have place here?

Also, what do you think about 1 Sheoldred, Whispering One instead of Sun Titan or Karn? I know 7 mana is a lot, but this deck should be able to cast it.

Diabolic Intent seems very interesting, but I think GSZ is a little bit better.

I am still waiting for my Birthing Pods, wanna test them. :)

@Tao: Definitely add Volrath's Stronghold to your list.

As a sidenote, I find it funny how people tend to get away from Tarmogoyf recently...
Most people argue(d) that Goyf is superior to Wall of Blossoms, even in a control build.

[Brushwagg]

@BOP: In early lists I played they were good. They do everything I want, they provide mana, sac to Therapy or Tower and block random flyers if needed. I feel if I get 2 activations out them I'm happy and don't really care if they bite it to Deed.

@GSZ: I did play for a while and found it lacking. It doesn't find Sun Titan or Deed and those 2 cards make the deck unfair. Intent is so much better since it does tutor for anything you need. I might end up running a couple of Kitchen Finks for more sacrifices.

@Recurring Nightmare: I like the idea of it, but once I get Sun Titan going then Nightmare would do kind of the same to a more limited extent.

@Goyf: My list wants to blow the board up for 2 and maybe 3 sometimes. So Goyf does nothing for me except die.

[Koby]

Recurring Nightmare provides a sac-outlet for those 3-drops (like Eternal Witness, getting back Therapy/Swords).

[conboy31]

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize / Duress (so you have 4 Thoughtseizes post board)
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 2 [M11] Liliana Vess

How do you board vs. Hivemind? I would guess something like:
-4 swords, -4 wall of blossoms, -1 recurring nightmare, -1 deeds
+ 3 seize, +2 duress, +1 pulse, +2 innocent blood, +2 vess

The Leyline of Sanctity in their board seems like the pivotal centerpiece of games 2 and 3. Maybe even -2 more deeds for the 2 finks in order to establish a slightly quicker clock behind the discard?

[Tao]

Didn't even notice that this was pinged. I am also still working on this and have very good results.

- one card that had completely dodged the radar is Hymn to Tourach. I had to get raped repeatedly by Team America with Hymn until I thought about playing it myself. The BB cost is a bit iffy though.
- I also didn't value Sun Titan high enough. It won me a lot of games though it makes the deck very dependant on the Graveyard.
- unfortunately I don't think there is much we can do about the White Leyline against Hive Mind.

[TheGodOfHouse]

@Tao:
Really digging your latest list. I'll give it a spin on MWS (sadly, I'm missing too many of the cards IRL). Btw, is there a particular reason why you play Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate?

[Tao]

The deck plays far more Green than White sources and destroying lands is basically irrelevant (if you get very lucky you might get a 2 for 1 Pulse but the main reason is the Mana).

Please let me know how your testing went, especially the Cabal Therapies. I feel like Therapy is the worst card in the deck atm and think that something has to be done about it.

[kiblast]

Please let me know how your testing went, especially the Cabal Therapies. I feel like Therapy is the worst card in the deck atm and think that something has to be done about it.

Cabal Therapy is a great card. Almost always a 2x1- if you name correctly. The interaction with Explorer is obvious and very strong...why would you ever think of cutting them?

[nedleeds]

Aven Mincensor is not in a deck with 4 x Veteran Explorers.

[Tao]

No he isn't. If you'd care about the opponent's Mana you wouldn't run Veteran Explorer in the first place.

[Brushwagg]

I have to agree about NOT cutting Cabal Therapy. Even if you wiff the first name the second is going to hit and is a sac outlet. After a few games people catch on about Explorer and just leave it alone so the more sac outlets you have the better.

Thoughtseize on the other hand, is worth moving to the SB though. A heavy discard suit also needs a good mix of land destruction to make it work and the lists being posted don't do that. But it is really hard to balance both in a 3 color deck.

[kiblast]

I have to agree about NOT cutting Cabal Therapy. Even if you wiff the first name the second is going to hit and is a sac outlet. After a few games people catch on about Explorer and just leave it alone so the more sac outlets you have the better.

Thoughtseize on the other hand, is worth moving to the SB though. A heavy discard suit also needs a good mix of land destruction to make it work and the lists being posted don't do that. But it is really hard to balance both in a 3 color deck.

I agree. Thoughtseizes are not worth maindeck slots, since you should already know what you don't want to hit the table and easily name it with Therapy.

What you guys think about Diabolic Intent / GSZ split? I absolutely love Intent as sometimes is broken in this deck ( Demonic Tutor and fetch 2 basics? or sac outlet for Witness and tutor Recurring Nightmare ? sign me up... ) but often I just want to tap 4 and get a KotR or Witness without saccing anything. I guess a good 3/3 split should work, since this deck normally does not play enough creatures ( I see 14-17 creatures in most list) to fully support 4 Intents, given the fact that we have so many sac outlets that sometimes I lack creatures to sac...

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I've finally added GSZ to my list and it has proven very worth while. I haven't tried diabolic intent as it just seems more cute than anything. I have some other sac outlets in place that you will see in my current incarnation of this list.


3 Sun Titan
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Fleshbag Maurader
1 Tarmogoyf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard is still in the works as it's constantly changing. The most difficult matchups for this deck tend to be the UW control decks because Jace is so difficult to answer. The best matchups tend to be anything creature base, especially Merfolk.

I recently played this list at the SCG Open in Indianapolis and took a horrendous loss to a burn deck and 2 UW control decks putting me in 50th on some really bad tie breakers (thanks burn player).

I find thoughtseize in the main is incredibly strong as it makes your therapies much more valuable and you don't always have to rely and sacrificing a dude to get value from therapy. Also it's really helpful against anything combo and control as you can just rip apart their hands with thoughtseize and therapy.

I think you're crazy for even thinking about cutting therapy. My first round in this tournament I played against dredge. I go turn 1 on the play forest veteran explorer go. He does draw discard go. Turn 2 I attack drop a swamp therapy naming breakthrough, he has 2... then sac vet naming putrid imp, he has 3 of them in his hand. needless to say i won that match... yeah beat dredge game 1, take that!

I tried running quasali and a few other GSZ tools but nothing really stuck so I've been using a single tarm in the 2 drop spot as a GSZ target and it's been okay. Quasali doesn't do anything that you're not already doing with deed.

I also noticed nobody running the fleshbag maurader. I was skeptical on this guy too at first, but after playing him it's really sick. It's an additional sac outlet while upgrading your guy and edicting them. It's also a lot of fun with Sun Titan running.

[Tao]

Sideboard is still in the works as it's constantly changing. The most difficult matchups for this deck tend to be the UW control decks because Jace is so difficult to answer. The best matchups tend to be anything creature base, especially Merfolk.


The big problem is that control decks don't care about KotR most of the time. They just Sword / Deed it 1 for 1 and that is unfortunately very good for them.
My last list on top of the page runs no KotR for those reasons. Only Explorers and creatures that create card advantage when hitting play. It plays 2 Thrun and 2 Maelstrom Pulse to deal with Jace. Its main threat vs. Control are the 2 Karn Liberated because many Control decks just cannot beat a resolved Karn. It enters the battlefield and either eats their only Factory so they can never attack it or goes to 10 loyalty and they can't deal nearly enough damage to put it in any danger. It also has another Pulse in the Side plus 2 Lilianas and addional Discard. Liliana might seems like a bad choice but they are imo the best choice in the matchups they come in against.

With that setup the Control matchup becomes quite favorable because it lets you win by playing the control role.

[Tao]

-

[Arianrhod]

After seeing Veteran Explorer for the first time in the Commander precon, I started working with something like this too -- my first thought was Cabal Therapy. My second was Lotus Cobra. I'm on my second or third draft of a list now, and have been testing it a bit throughout development. Here's my current incarnation:


1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Pernicious Deed

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Promise of Power
1 Regrowth

1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold


After crafting the core of the deck, I realized that I was going to have a lot of mana at my disposal, and that I should probably have something to do with that mana. After a while, I decided on Batterskull as my primary mana sink. It's a good sized recursive beater/blocker that once you hit 8 mana becomes very hard to stop without Krosan Grip. Promise of Power has been nothing but amazing. Since I'm running Batterskull and Baneslayer, I usually don't care about the five life lost, and drawing five cards is exactly what this deck wants to do. The triple black is rough, I'll admit, with Sun Titan and Baneslayer also hanging out, so I either need to find a better way to deal with that problem or switch out some of my threats. I run Titan Oath in vintage, so I knew going in that Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed was going to be one of the primary engines of the deck. That is just brutally unfair once you get it rolling.

I can't speak enough praise of Lotus Cobra. Granted, it doesn't always survive. But it mandates immediate removal, or things are going to get stupid. Two landfall triggers + the lands coming into play untapped off of Explorer is pretty silly, and can lead to some just broken starts. Sequences like t1 Explorer t2 Cobra t3 Therapy, sac for flashback, fetch land, Sun Titan (or insert bomb here) are fairly common, and a lot of decks just crumple under that.

Grave Titan is not working at all, for me. At this stage I'm contemplating a Wurmcoil Engine in its place, as I want another big bomb of some kind, but 3 Sun Titans or 3 Baneslayers just feels unnecessary. The mana base in general needs some help...probably cutting some of the 1-ofs and working from there is a good idea.

Gifts is questionable. A singleton island + cobra shenanigans makes getting the blue mana a joke, so that isn't a problem...and with Explorer, I'm not really hurting my mana base for it either. Gifts DOES feel gross when it resolves. Making piles like E. Witness, Cabal Therapy, Regrowth, Sun Titan is pretty brutal, because this deck makes enough mana to where it doesn't care if you have to regrow a Titan. I had a singleton Maga, Traitor to Mortals in the deck in its initial iteration, which along with Volrath's Stronghold and an Urborg (which I since cut, but will probably find its way in again), enabled a Gifts-powered late wincon. In the end it felt clunky, though, so I trimmed it out for a bit more beating power. At the same time, though, I feel that if I put in a Wurmcoil or two, I have enough lifegain that I should just smooth my mana base out entirely and put in another Promise of Power or two. The fact that Gifts is an instant while Promise is not is holding me back a bit -- blocking with an Explorer to get two lands and trigger two landfalls off Cobra lets me Gifts during their turn, even when completely tapped out previously, which is pretty hot.

I thought about Green Sun's Zenith...it was in here originally, and then I took it out. The reason is that green doesn't have many great wincons...and especially not when compared to Sun Titan or Stoneforge Mystic, both of which it is unable to get. Green Sunning for Explorer, Cobra, Knight, and Witness are all still pretty sweet, don't get me wrong. I'm going for more of a Big Rock type of feel, though, and frankly the other colors just offer better finishers in my opinion. Since I'm running Stoneforge (and Volrath's Stronghold), I'd rather have more actual creatures as opposed to the virtual copies that GSZ enables, and since with Cobra I burn through mana a lot quicker than non-snake versions, I'd rather have genuine card draw as opposed to topdecking and praying. Although I will note that this deck topdecks pretty well, as a result of the massive land thinning through Explorer + fetches.

Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

[Philipp2293]

This is a pretty interesting list, and I don't wanna judge it without testing, but I also feel the Grave Titan is not needed there, how about replacing it with a third deed? 2 feels a bit light to me.

[nedleeds]

No he isn't. If you'd care about the opponent's Mana you wouldn't run Veteran Explorer in the first place.

What does that even mean? You are not playing an otherwise good creature that has great synergy with (what seems to be) the key card in your deck. "Not caring" about your opponents resources is a great way to get run in legacy. In addition to the synergy with the Veteran the Mindcensor stops Stoneforge Mystic (she occasionally hits the board in legacy), fetchlands (also sometimes played), and some corner cases (combo, tutors, merchant scrolls, etc.).

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I really like promise of power and may end up trying that out. It seems pretty good.


I initially had 12 spots in my sideboard dedicated to the UW control matchup. I was running 3 vindicates, 3 choke, 4 hymn to tourach and 2 thrun. Somehow this still wasn't enough. One matchup I had the UW player on a choke lock down but he had enough swords to plow/path to exile to keep my board clear while being able to beat down with mishras and so forth it was disturbing that he won that game.

Lately my game plan against the heavy control decks has been to board in bitterblossoms. My new plan is to take out 4x vet explorer, 1 sun titan, 3 deeds and put in 3 bitterblossoms, 3 duress, and 2 thrun. I haven't had a chance to try this out, but i'm pretty sure they can't beat bitterblossom. STP stays in because it takes out mishra and stoneforge if they play it. Deed isn't very good in this matchup unless they are playing heavy stoneforge plan.

@Arianrhod: I like your list it has some fresh ideas that I may try out. I really don't like the stoneforge mystic plan though because you're running deed. One of the strongest points of this deck is being able to deed all of the time, and i really mean all of the time. Gifts though just seems too cute and pretty difficult to consistantly pull off, to me not worth splashing.

[Philipp2293]

So, I've tested a little, and have to agree that the Mystic Package was kinda average. On the other hand I was surprised in a positive way with Gifts, I've been able to pull it off most of the times, resulting in some backbreaking piles. I would definitely consider upping the landcount, I had to mull quite a few times.

Cutting the Stoneforge's allows for 5 more slots, I would consider running 2 more lands (maybe 1 is enough) and 1 more witness (just can't have enough), which leaves 2/3 more slots open, which could either go towards more discard, the 4th deed or another wincon(why hasn't elspeth been considered so far?), maybe even a recurring nightare.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I like that you mention Elspeth. I initially had her in the deck becuase of the synergy with deed, but I found her to just be too clunky and more of a card that is a "win-more." It was kind of cool to have a flying Titan though.

[Arianrhod]

I'm currently testing this, now:


4 Pernicious Deed

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sun Titan
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Promise of Power

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold


Have yet to see Elspeth in a game. Promise of Power continues to impress, and is up to a 2-of, now. I'm also up to the full 4-deeds, and I'm trying a bit more Rock-ish approach as opposed to the Junk version that I started with. I don't think more hand distruption is really necessary main deck...the Therapies are doing pretty good work. Elspeth might be a pretty good call -- theoretically, it can not only provide blockers and a win condition of its own, but it can also provide sacrificial lambs for flashback and Intent. I'll post again once I've got some more legwork in with this version.

RE: Aven Mindcensor: I like the idea of it, but I'm not sure how good it would be in practice. If you try a Mindcensor version, you'd probably want both Wastelands and Path to Exiles in your deck somewhere -- the problem, of course, is that you're getting a bit dependent on the Mindcensor sticking around.

[Philipp2293]

I really like the way your list is shaping up. Some further points (yeah, I know I'm picky, but it has been quite some time since a deck caught my interest as much as this):

-) I'm not too sure the split between cobras and witnesses is right, I think with the full playset of cobras the deck is shifting too much towards mana development while becoming too gas light.

-) I don't like the Urborg. I think any G-based dual should be fine there, maybe even one Tropical Island to have access to U via fetchies (might not be needed).

-) I don't think you need 2 Promise of Power: You don't want to draw it too early, you usually want to resolve it once a game, and you have some ways to tutor it up.

-) Where did the Regrowth go? I like the piles which were Witness - Regrowth - Bomb - Bomb :(

-) How about somehow squeezing 1 Pulse or 1 Vindicate into the MD to have a catch-all answer for Gifts piles or as Diabolic Intent targets?

[Arianrhod]

That's fine -- I'm also pretty interested in this archetype, so the discussion is greatly appreciated!

-) At the same time, though, Cobras have an extremely low life expectancy. Many legacy players know Cobra from times when it did degenerate things in either Standard or Vintage, so they aren't going to make the mistake of letting it live. Extras can help, if you need them, and worst case scenario are lightning rods for removal. Also, Witness is recursable by Sun Titan. So even though there are only two Witnesses, I think that is enough -- you can sac them and bring them back for extra value. Also, I'm a little skeptical of making the deck too reliant on the graveyard. It's walking a fine line between using the graveyard and being really hurt by graveyard hate out of the board.

-) Urborg was in at first, then it was out, now it's in again. The value that I like with Urborg is that you can burn out of fetchable lands in a real hurry in this deck. Urborg lets you still get value you out of them, in addition to smoothing over the mana costs between Baneslayer/Titan and Promise. At the moment I'm pleased with it, but that's subject to change. I'm always wary of cards that come and go in my lists a lot.

-) (Combining these) The Regrowth became the 2nd Promise of Power. I agree that you want one to resolve per game. More than that is usually overkill/dangerous. And besides, if you can't win after drawing 5, there's probably something else seriously wrong. In my experience, though, I just haven't been finding it as a one-of. Two feels like the right number. You usually want to use Diabolic Intent for other purposes, although frankly I could see bumping Intent up slightly to a 3-of, since I never seem to find it either, although that may just be RNG messing with me. Also, in my experience thusfar, drawing it early isn't really a detriment. Promise can happen on turn two if you get the right hand -- you aren't necessarily getting full value out of it, but you can always discard extra fetches and the like.

Regrowth is a sick card that enables broken piles. The problem that I have with it is that at the moment, Gifts is just here for sheer value, as a card advantage machine that can do silly things with Sun Titan and enable opponents to make mistakes. I've been steadily leaning more and more towards cutting it, in fact, rather than making it better. The problem is that I don't know what other good draw spell I'd want. Maybe Harmonize? That would then allow the Island to become a dual and smooth out the mana base a bit better. Alternatively, if something degenerate can be done with Gifts, then I'm all for that. I love Gifts (and Intution) as a card, and I love doing backbreaking things with it. But without some kind of combo to be enabled, it feels really lacking. Maybe that's just because I'm too used to Vintage and doing piles like Time Vault - Voltaic Key - Regrowth - Yawg Will.

-) I like this idea a lot actually. I haven't had the dreaded Jace problem arise yet in testing, but I know that it's out there lurking and waiting to be a problem. I'd probably go Vindicate if I had to choose, since Deed already wipes out token piles, and Vindicate can get rid of troublesome things like Maze of Iths, which as a Wasteland-free deck, we are ill-equipped to deal with otherwise. At the same time, I'm leery of putting in a 9th removal spell -- I would probably cut one Deed for a Vindicate if anything. I'll test it and see what I think.

At this point, I really feel like I want one or maybe two more bombs main deck, probably Wurmcoil Engines, because this deck can make the mana to drop it and it completely wins games by itself. At the same time, I wouldn't mind running 5-drops instead, since 5 is a very convenient number for Lotus Cobra. After doing some more testing, I can also say that I like Elspeth. She came down a few times playing against a friend, and flying 10/10 knights are a pretty solid way to win a game. She's also another way to get around Moat, which is an annoying card to deal with (although Deed helps).

I'm starting to give some thoughts to the sideboard, as well. Mainly I think control, storm/high tide, and generic answer cards is the way to go. This deck has a pretty sick matchup against a lot of the field -- my friend and I are testing on Cockatrice, so he's just building archetype after archetype and throwing them at it. Fish has a hell of a time beating this deck -- they can get close sometimes, but it takes them long enough that I have time to get out a bomb, and they can't really answer Baneslayer or Titan/Deed. For that matter, they have no way to interact with Lotus Cobra, which we quickly found was -huge-. Merfolk HAS to counter Cobra, or they just die. This deck will pump out bomb after bomb if they don't, and fish cannot keep up. Explorer is also rather a house -- it's amazing how few decks have how few basics to get. It's not as much of a group hug card as it looks like on the face of it, although I still wouldn't run Wasteland. He's also tried U/W Tempo against it, and 12 counters main isn't enough to reliably hold this thing down. That said, I remain concerned about the GerryT/Levin style control decks with a whole pile of counters. We're set up for Thrun, but he's known technology that, while they have a hard time, they are learning how to deal with.

For now, I'm going to start with something like the following:


4 Thoughtseize
3 City of Solitude
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Rule of Law


It's rough and ugly, but in my experience so far it should answer the problems.

[Magicsk8ngenius]

I'm not sure rule of law is a good thing against ... any deck really. It's especially bad against blue decks. I'm down with the city of solitude though, could be pretty good. The more I look into the intiution/gifts portion of the deck it leads me to whole different deck. GWU Titan Gifts... lots of broken things can be done with it.

[Tao]

oh my. I ... LOVE ... Gifts Ungiven.
I played Gifts for Therapy and Witness a couple of times but totally forgot it existed. Props for bringing it up. Also note that Gifts on Recurring Nightmare + Witness + Regrowth + (Sun Titan, Meloku, Wurmcoil) is a big game. Your list looks interesting and I am sure brewing with this has a lot of potential.

[Arianrhod]

Had a big reply typed up but I lost it because I'm not used to my Naga yet. Oops. Here's the five minute version as opposed to the 15:

Gifts is back in. I tested Harmonize instead, and it felt terrible.

Haven't tested Recurring Nightmare yet. Looks like a bad Sun Titan, but I feel I should test it before deciding that.

Built a bant Titanic Gifts deck to test out the concept. Quickly realized that it turns into a sort of Mythic Conscription deck from a year or so back, and that Explorer is useless in it. Exploration, on the other hand, may prove useful, especially on concert with Cobra, which, since you wouldn't run Deed, could in theory work. I'll also point out that both halves of Thopter/Sword are reanimate-able with Titan and fetchable with Gifts/Intuition. Food for thought. If you want to develop it, keep me posted...my attention will be here for the moment, though.

Team Italia is an even to bad matchup, due to mass hand obliteration and effective spot removal. This deck doesn't mind topdecking, but I'm finding that hand destruction in the t1-3 range is devastating, because it can stop you from using what business you have. Worried about RUG Thresh and NO RUG for the same reason (although removal + counter is probably better for us in the long run, with Thrun out of board).

I still don't feel like the bomb configuration is right. I tweaked a few numbers and am currently running 3 Baneslayers/2 Titans. Both bombs being white is seriously annoying me, since the deck wants green early and black late, with white as a splash color. Ideally I think I would want a 2/2/2 split of three different types of bombs. Baneslayer and Titan are both amazing in this deck, but I don't know what the other two should be. Part of me wants to say Abyssal Persecutor...god knows we have the sacrifice outlets for him, but I'm not sure if just a 6/6 flample beatstick is good "enough." I think that we want techy dudes more than beatsticks (although granted Baneslayer and Titan aren't exactly anemic).

Also, Elspeth is amazing. I foresee some matchups where she'll get boarded out, but she's a house against aggro and a viable wincon in and of herself. Plus, she's a four-drop, which is easily manageable with Cobra + Explorer trigger.

That's all for now -- I didn't get much testing in today due to having jury duty all day. Going to proxy up my latest build and take it to FNM to bash skulls with against some of the local legacy heads. I'll let you guys know how that goes -- if anyone has ideas in the meanwhile, I'll be checking periodically throughout the day tomorrow.

[Philipp2293]

One thing that could be considered in the game ending slot is Vampire Hexmage + Dark Dephts. Both are in black, both are recurrable with Titan, Hexmage obviously has use on it's own. Might turn out to be utter crap though.

Please keep us updated on how your testing goes.

On the Bant Titan build: In this case you could very well include now the Stoneforge package, I might work on that too :)

[Arianrhod]

Alright, I got some more testing in online today, and I'm pretty much done tweaking for the day before my testing-fest tonight at FNM. For reference, here is my most up-to-date list that I will be playing tonight:


2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sun Titan
2x Kokusho, the Evening Star
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Qasali Pridemage

3x Pernicious Deed

2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2x Promise of Power
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains


I did a little trolling of Gatherer, and it reminded me that Kokusho exists. I don't think we could ask for a better bomb for this deck (other than Titan, obv). It's a massive evasive flyer, and we run more than enough sac outlets to pop it and drain for lethal (or to stay alive). With the third pairing of bombs in the deck, Gifts feels a -lot- better now.

I'm testing going Knight-less at the moment, and I'm trying Qasali in those spots instead. I think that it is probably going to be a mistake, but has pretty good synergy with Sun Titan and I think it's worth testing. If I don't like it, I'll go -2 Qasali, +2 Knight and worry about where to squeeze in the third later. The list is getting a lot tighter now. I'm still dicking around with the sideboard. At the moment it looks like thus:


2x Thrun
3x City of Solitude
3x Extirpate
4x Thoughtseize
3x Innocent Blood


Innocent Blood seems like it would do good work against reanimator or show/tell or NO -- it both annoys them and advances our own position at the same time...even against standard aggro decks, it might be useful.

On the Bant Titan side of things, I sketched out a preliminary list for that. I'm not sure if I should put it in here or not...it's going in a pretty different direction and probably deserves its own thread, in all honesty.

[eq.firemind]

Speaking of Kamigawa dragons, Yosei, the Morning Star + Recurring Nightmare just locks the hell out of your opponent. I think you should squeeze one of each into your list (Gifts and Intent can both tutor Nightmare).

[Koby]

Greater Good may be a good way to get the chain started too, or Ashnod's Altar.

I really like the Lotus Cobra starter chain. Have we considered Birthing Pod yet? It's really slow, but it has the potential to be really amazing.

[Arianrhod]

Speaking of Kamigawa dragons, Yosei, the Morning Star + Recurring Nightmare just locks the hell out of your opponent. I think you should squeeze one of each into your list (Gifts and Intent can both tutor Nightmare).

I never even thought of this. Brilliant. I'll spend the next little bit trying to work that in before I head out...I'll let you know what I take out for it before I leave.

Well that was easy. I took out 1 Kokusho and 1 Eternal Witness. That drops me to 1 Witness in my deck total, but Nightmare does similar things, and Nightmare + Witness seems good. May change it later, but for the moment I'll run this and see how it goes.

[Tao]

WAY back in the days I won the Source Tourmanent with Nightmare/Yosei as the main kill. The deck was really goo back then but Survival was legal so you can't copy much from it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4120-Source-Tournament-VII-Pairings-Are-Up!!!!&p=90518&viewfull=1#post90518

I still think I want to rather play this in a control shell but I am also very curious how your more combo-ish approach goes.

[kiblast]

If you are playing Gifts, Deep Analysis as a 1of seems a good choice for drawing extra cards. Is it worth ?

[Arianrhod]

@Kiblast -- I think that is going a little too much into blue. I'd rather keep it just as a very slight splash and not try to go four color.

@Tao -- I think that's actually pretty analogous. Granted that Survival was a very powerful engine, but through abusing Diabolic Intent and Gifts, this deck has a lot of the same vibes. I missed the Rec Sur era, unfortunately (I think I would have loved the deck), but I did get my roommate hooked on Bant Survival for a year or so until the banning, and played it when he couldn't make an event. This deck definitely has a lot of the same feel to it as playing with the Survival engine. I don't view my list as more combo-oriented...that said, I certainly don't complain about having a combo finish for random unfair wins.

@rukcus -- I think that the Pod is way too slow for this. Although, I'll grant that I didn't give Recurring Nightmare full consideration either, and it took me trying it to be completely sold on the idea. Build one up and try it out; I'd love to hear the results.

-----

I played probably 6-8 games of legacy between rounds at FNM tonight, vs U/G Vengevine, Burn, and Berserk Stompy. Not exactly the best gauntlet, but that's what people brought with them...and they're all faster decks which is better in-between rounds. I dropped 1 of those 10 games. Titan + Deed won me several of those singlehandedly, and the rest of the time Baneslayer + removal was good enough. I did win one game off of flying beats followed up by saccing Koksuho to flashback Therapy, which seems like a good synergy. With Rec going, too, Kokusho suddenly gets very scary, as he is entirely capable of Draining an opponent clean out of the game. Obviously that's a very late-game tactic, while Yosei wins much faster, but it is a very powerful tool and worth keeping in mind.

The Qasalis were absolutely terrible. I'm currently +1 Gifts (to 3) and +1 E. Witness (to 2) because I wanted to emphasize the combo slightly more, and because I still find myself running out of gas sometimes. Also, Witness + Rec is just effing dirty. No other way to describe it...it's grossly unfair. A 2nd Witness definitely feels right...I'm less certain about the 3rd Gifts at this point. I'd love to have room for 3 Knights and maybe 2 Finks, but I don't see that happening at this point. Currently, my threats are -all- clustering at the 5/6 spot, and while I like having a good number of bombs, I worry that I'm becoming TOO dependent on the upper end of the curve. At the same time, I do also like the fact that my dudes are all vastly more powerful than everyone elses'. Usually it seems like I can rely on Therapy, spot removal, and Deeds to successfully hit late game, at which point I can just take over. That said, though, I would definitely feel better if I had some more early-game oomph to tide me over till the late game. It seems to be working at the moment, though, so I guess I probably shouldn't worry about it.

At this point I'm planning on trimming the 3rd Gifts for a Knight of the Reliquary, and potentially finding room for a second/third if at all possible. Beyond that, I think the mana base needs a little work, and the sideboard needs to exist beyond theory. I'm fairly comfortable with the maindeck of my list, though, and I would encourage you to try it and see how it works...I definitely have some preconceived biases, so outside opinions are greatly appreciated.

[Philipp2293]

Could you post your current list? I think that latest changes confused me a bit, cause you talked about cutting witnesses while you hadn't any in the decklist above ;)

[Arianrhod]

That would be because I apparently forgot to type them out. Oops.

Current list:


2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness

3x Pernicious Deed

3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2x Promise of Power
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains

[Philipp2293]

I'm afraid you're slowly drifting into danger of cool things land there. So many finishers? Really? I'd rather run a few more cards which allow to survive the early game. We already have a pretty good lategame.

[TheGodOfHouse]

Although you guys seem to have moved on to a Gifts-version, I still wanted to share some thoughts on Tao's last list. Unfortunately, I could not do real testing on MWS, but there are some things that struck me nonetheless. Generally speaking, I was satisfied with the deck overall.

First of all, although blind Therapies weren't that useful due to the more casual nature of my MWS games, I feel that you really need them as sac outlets. Its also a great weapon against the continuously growing popularity of Stoneforge Mystic amongst other things, so I am really against cutting them.

Furthermore, I always had the feeling that the deck went a bit too slow which was because even with Top in play and continous fetching, I was not able to find the win cons. Although it that point I was mostly in control of the games, I would wish for a faster way to win, as to not give the opponent time to recover. I would therefore advocate the inclusion of the previously mentioned Diabolic Intent to up the count of win cons.

About the "Hymn-problem": Why not play Leyline of Sanctity from the Sideboard? The additional discard and removal should give you enough tools to combat enchantment hate in any form.

All in all, I would propose the following changes to the MD:

+2 Diabolic Intent
+1 Grave Titan

-1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Pernicious Deed

Again, these observations are only from limited MWS play and I will keep toying around with it.

[Tao]

For the pure Control shell (Witnesses, Deeds, no Cobra):

Gifts Ungiven is a great addition to the Control build. It can just make a pile of 4 strong cards which are good in the current situation which I do about half the time. The other times it sets up synergies like Cabal Therapy and finds our inevitability with Recurring Nightmare.
I don't like Diabolic Intent because a tutor is meant to add consistency to the deck but unfortunately the card itself is inconsistent. Gifts is always good and often enoug broken.

Another strong card that blue gives us is Jace TMS. He is ridiculous but that is commonly known.
I tried a 4-color-build for a while just to include Swords to Plowshares but ultimately I dismembered White and now I use bad black Removal instead. White has just nothing useful to offer except for StoP if you play this type of deck.

For the problem that Combo decks bring in leyline of Sanctity against us the best solution I have (that is not only useful in 1 matchup) is Nature's Claim . It destroys Leyline quick enough and the lifegain is 99% irrelevant.

[Arianrhod]

@phillip/in general -- with the shifting goal of the deck into more of a traditional gifts rock/rec sur concept, I think I'm going to try switching out Baneslayer and Promise of Power. Into what, I'm not quite sure yet -- I'm thinking that I'm going to put Knight of the Reliquary back in. I may leave one Baneslayer as a tutor target, because she definitely can just win games on her own that you have no business winning otherwise.

If I can find room in the mana base (which, without Promise of Power, Urborg can finally come out), I'm going to try to work in a Dryad Arbor and potentially a Khalni Garden as a Knight-able token generator for when you need to Intent.

A friend of mine suggested Vengevine for this deck, but I don't think that is a good idea. I'll toss it out there for peer review, as it were, but I just don't see it. VV plays nice with sac outlets, I'll grant, but I think I'd rather have a maindeck Thrun or two, as opposed to VV.

@Tao: I'm glad you're taking up the Gifts mantle. I'm not sure if cutting white entirely is a good idea, since then you also lose access to Sun Titan, as well as Enlightened Tutor packages out of the sideboard (still working on this idea). Explorer makes splashing a color so incredibly easy...I'm not sure that there is a downside. At the same time, basing BUG lets you use Jace, which, as you pointed out, is amazing. At the same time, I'm not sure at what point we just turn into a deviate BUGstill if you go down that road.

[Tao]

So, here is my current list. I am quite satisfied with it. Brainstorm adds much consistency and Jace and Gifts are nuts. The 4-drop slot is quite full but Thrun constantly kept on overperforming so I have 2 of him in the main currently split with 2 Gifts and 2 Jace. Because you don't need to draw 2 of any of them this works out quite well.

About the big threats. Three seems like the best number. Karn is awesome and always wins and the opponent can't do anything. Meloku is like really good and I won't cut him but I am not sure between Wurmcoil and Grave Titan. Both work well with Nightmare and end things fast but Titan is much harder to deal with while Wurmcoil is a way to get out of Aggro reach. Playing both would be too much.

Normal Gifts piles involve Regrowth and Eternal Witness so it becomes a double Demonic Tutor. Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare are not included as often as Witness and Regrowth but still a good amount. Jace TMS and Maelstrom Pulse are very often included.
Often it just doesn't matter what you get because anything would win but sometimes choosing the right cards becomes tricky.

Against Blue decks you have to use Therapy on Brainstorm first even if they don't respond. Often you can tell from their reaction if they have it because they think about responding with it. If you can't tell what they have just name Brainstorm because it is a safe 4-off and it would destroy your Flashback if they have it.

BUG Jacestill has four relevant card against you in their 75 and that are the 4 Jace TMS. If the table is empty don't break Standstill with less than 7 spells in hand and break it at the end of their turn.
Throw everything you have at their Jace. Sometimes they will establish Jace nonetheless and you lose but usually you can keep it off the table with Pulses, Therapies, Thruns, your own Jaces and Witnesses. G2 it gets better because of the Extra Discard and the third Pulse, side out Deeds and Blood. They board Vendillion so leave in the one Dismember. They are good but not enough to kill you, it is still all about Jace.

Vs. Merfolk you try to kill their Lords and they try to Protect them / draw more than you can handle. That is basically it. Side in Extra Removal.

Vs. Stoneforge Aggro Decks the matchup is quite good. They usually can't do anything with the Explorer Mana if you have Explorer and Deed works wonders against them. Stoneforgestill is not much different from BUG Jacestill, it is mostly about Jace. They have Stoneforges to annoy and their Removal exiles but they also have a bit less protection and 1 less Jace.



// Lands
3 [B] Forest
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [OD] Innocent Blood

2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [B] Regrowth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy

[soiber2000]

It looks great on paper! My opinion is based only looking at your list, I haven't even tested it. Don't you have an extemely high curve? It seems like it has too many 4 and higher costs, if you don't resolve veteran explorer (mental misstep is everywhere) it is a bit dificult to reach the 4-6 lands. But I like the 4 witness, 4 blossoms for defense/card advantage. Also, I think wurmcoil belongs to this deck, and meloku doesn't. What are here uses? If you make tokens, it seems like a bad deal with pernicius deed backup.

Another thing I don't get, basically because I have never played with him, is Karn. What is the strategy you need to follow to win with the opponent can't do anything? I supose it involves a chain of two +4 activations to some threats in your hand and then restart the game with those in play, I don't see anything extra.

[Arianrhod]

@soiber -- In my testing, I'm finding that people won't misstep the Explorer. They'll save it for something that they perceive to be a bigger threat. Granted, some of the people I've been testing against a -lot- will counter the Explorer now because they know what it does, but that still allows Therapies and Swords to go through unabated (or Brainstorms in the case of Tao's list). My primary testing partner has started Swordsing the Explorer so I don't get the trigger -- the problem that he runs into then, though, is that he doesn't have the removal later on for my bigger threats. In an Explorer-less game, you instead lean on your removal. Keep the board clear of their threats and play the control role instead of the beatdown. Eventually, in a war of topdecks, this deck -will- win. The threats it plays are just vastly beyond what most other decks in the format are capable of. You're dropping Titans while they drop Goyfs. It just doesn't compare.

@Tao -- As with Soiber, this is based off of my own experiences with my version, and not explicit playtesting with your list.

-) You need Volrath's Stronghold somewhere in there. Stronghold as a backup Sun Titan/Eternal Witness is disgusting. It's a nonbasic singleton that doesn't always show up, but when it does, it does some serious work. Even if you only get one activation out of it before a wasteland, it's very useful.

-) I would suggest adding a singleton Fleshbag Marauder somewhere. I've diversified my list a bit and refocused on the Gifts package, dropping Promise of Power and a few other things to do so. This guy has been the best find so far. I got Stronghold + Fleshy online in two separate testing games and just won. It's a sac outlet for Explorer, and removal all at the same time. Being Sun Titan-able and Stronghold-able is just gravy.

-) What are the Nature's Claims for in the sideboard? Metalworker/equipment?

-) Your mana base. I don't know how it's been working out for you, but 10 fetches seems like an awful lot given the deckthinning of Explorer. With only three duals, you're going to be drawing blank fetches a lot in the late game, I would think. Obviously they're good still with Brainstorm and Jacestorm just for the shuffle, but I think I would tone that back even just a little.

-) Going along with that and the Stronghold, I would add a 2nd Phyrexian Tower. It's legendary, and it sucks when you get the second one when you already have the first out, but it's akin to playing multiple Gaea's Cradles in the same deck. It adds such horrendous explosiveness to the archetype that I think it is probably worth having two.

-) I'm not sure about only having 3 Therapies main. Therapy is an amazing weapon that is also one of our few ways to interact with combo game one. Against B/W discard and Team Italia, I've found that Therapy is the single best card in my deck -- at the same time that they're stripping my hand of threats, I can be doing the same to them...which eventually leads to a late topdeck war that I almost always win. The fact that it is also a sac outlet for Explorer and enables Witness recursion is also a plus.

-) I agree with Soiber regarding Meloku. It's a hell of a bomb, I'll grant, but I don't think it's the right bomb for the archetype. We don't have Aintrazi's Explorations to go batshit with it. At the point at which this deck makes a truckload of mana anyway, have you thought about trying Sheoldred, the Whispering One? It's removal and reanimates dead Witnesses/Walls. Just some food for thought -- or perhaps if you want a 5-drop for curve issues you could consider Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or even Kokusho for value at the 6 spot. Kokusho + Rec isn't as nuts as Yosei, perhaps, but it'll still get the job done.

Just some food for thought. I'll post my updated list later on -- it's doing some interesting things at this point. I'm not sure if they're all good or not...in a way, I think that my deck took a step back in refinement from a few lists ago because I'm trying new things. I think that the end point will be better, though.

[Tao]

- Mana base / number of high CC cards / reliance on Explorer: It plays 5 Duals (not 3) so I didn't have a problem with dead fetches so far. With 7 basics, a Phyrexian Tower and 3 colors I think 10 Fetchlands are needed to get the right Mana reliably. Nine cards that cost four or more Mana are a lot but that's what the deck does. It does not rely on Explorer though. It has Removal to stall and Wall of Blossoms, Brainstorms and Witnesses (for Fetch) to find the nessecary lands if you don't have Explorer. Because of that it is also not a catastrophe if they stop Explorer from doing his job.
Using Explorer is very relevant. Don't automatically run it out on turn for example. By waiting for Therapy/Tower you get around Swords without a problem.

- Karn on an empty board usually means you win. He draws one card a turn and then loses it. If he keeps it in hand or if it is irrelevant you use +4, if he plays it and it is relevant you use -3. Usually there is no need to use it on yourself or to restart a game. Because why would you want to restart a game with Iso Scepter/Vindicate in play? One of the reasons to restart would be fear of dying to burnspells.

- If I would run another colorless land (Stronghold, Wasteland) I would run 23 lands. One Life from the Loam would probably also be included then. Atm I don't think it is needed.

- I use Innocent Blood atm. Without Stronghold it is better than Marauder.

- Nature's Claim are imo better than Grip because they can kill Leyline of Sanctity in time. They are also better against Painter decks and Affinity.

- You are right, the 4th Therapy belongs in the main. Will cut something.

- Meloku just always performed well when I had him. Blocks fliers, blocks Sworded guys, blocks multiple creatures, wins fast.

[Arianrhod]

Alright folks, here's the latest main and sideboard for my more combo-oriented version.


1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Academy Rector
2x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtor's Knell

3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1x Innocent Blood
2x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Karakas

//Sideboard
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Null Rod
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Innocent Blood


So...yeah. A lot of versions and a lot of work over the past week or so has gotten me to this point. I had no idea that Rector was legal in legacy, and that immediately got my wheels turning. Since my deck was already built with the idea of sacrificing a creature for value, Rector seems like it should be here somewhere. I know that I run a grave risk of getting too cute at the point at which Rector is introduced, so I kept myself to a strict one-bomb limit. For that purpose, I selected Debtor's Knell. It is synergistic with the rest of the deck in general (and Gifts specifically), and is almost insurmountable when it's online -- even bringing back a Witness every upkeep is brutal. And the Knell can bring back stuff that you've already blown up or discarded, which seems useful. Worst case, we can play the Knell from our hand fairly easily, and Rector can always grab a Deed or Nightmare, with additional options from the sideboard. I did consider Moat, but I like that I like Titan too much. I've built around him to an extent that using him just to bring back one permanent ever is a little lame. Still, I suppose that it IS worthy of consideration, especially for the more control oriented versions (Tao's list with white would love this...suddenly Meloku becomes superserious).

I've already touched on Fleshbag, but I'll mention him again here. You can bring him back with Titan, you can bring him back with Stronghold, and not many decks can handle that. Plus, he fuels our sacrifice theme. He's been a house in testing so far. Most of the other tweaks are value of life changes for Gifts. I diversified my removal to work better therein, and decided to keep the 3rd copy of Gifts in the deck.

Now, for the sideboard:

I'll preface this by stating that this section is mostly theoretical.

Natural Order is not. My primary testing partner is besotted with NO, and it took me dying a few times to his NO -- fueled by my own Explorer saccing, mind -- for me to realize that I should be doing that, too. It's rather frightening how much this deck already facilitates a NO package, and it turns some coin toss matchups into advantageous ones. Some of them, like Zoo, may board into Perish, I'm not sure -- I don't play Zoo, so I'm not sure if Explorer, Witness, and Cobra is enough for them to bring that in...I'm guessing not.

The Innocent Bloods are to have a little extra for the Show and Tell decks...fairly industry standard.

The E.T. package is a personal baby of mine. I love E.T. toolboxes, so whenever I'm working on a deck that could run it, I tend to be biased towards doing so. However, in my defense, I didn't really sell on the ET idea until I put Academy Rector in. ET can shore up some dreadful matchups with effective, crippling bullets. Control crumples under Chains, Choke, and City. Painter doesn't like to see Null Rod. Burn obviously can't deal with CoP:Red. Dredge and Reanimator don't like Wheel of Sun and Moon. This last is probably the weakest ET target present, honestly. I feel like Dredge is a decent matchup already, and Reanimator, I feel, you need to have dedicated hate for if you want to beat it. At the same time, Therapy is a little rough for them, and the combined black and white removal might cause issues. I'm not sure.

I would like two Thruns somewhere for an additional middle finger to control, but at the point at which either City or Choke is out, especially, I think that they are in dire straights -- at that point, our superior card quality should take over and run them out of the game.

Going forward, I'm going to be looking at the final remaining Baneslayer very closely. It may be that she should become a 3rd Sun Titan, or perhaps a Regrowth. It may be something else. I'm feeling like she's not necessary, though, as usually my "win the game" Gifts pile is Titan-Nightmare-Witness-Yosei.

Ideas and comments are appreciated, as always. This particular list is a bit more experimental than some of its predecessors, as mentioned earlier -- but I think that with some further tweaks and refining, this is going good places.

[Philipp2293]

Could the new Garruk maybe see play here? It's basically Promise of Power if you have a fattie out and has value even if you just start spam the board with tokens or alternate between first and second ability. Casting cost seems supportable. I haven't tested with it yet, though.

[Brushwagg]

I'm not sold on Gifts Ungiven. Not sure if it's really worth moving into 4 colors just for it and seems like you want to do too many cool things.

The list I'm going to give a shot is:

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Thrun, the last Troll
3x Sun Titan

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Sylvan Library

4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
3x Forest
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Horizon Canopy

SB
3x Wrath of God
3x Innocent Blood
3x Extirpate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Krosan Grip
1x Bojuka Bog

The Innocent Blood could be Diabolic Edict. I also almost want to drop the Top for another Pridemage, in order to get some early beats on the table. Thoughts?

[Tao]

Could the new Garruk maybe see play here? It's basically Promise of Power if you have a fattie out and has value even if you just start spam the board with tokens or alternate between first and second ability. Casting cost seems supportable.

The new Garruk seems legit. I always wanted more Planeswalkers but except for Jace they are all not good in this deck. Garruk 1 is not realiable enough. Beast production chews away at his loyalty and untapping is not always needed. Elspeth has also only one really useful ability. For decks like GW giving +3/+3 and flying is great to finish a game but this deck does not care overly much about how many turns it needs once the game is under control. The Elspeth ultimate is extremely rarely useful.

Garruk 2 is like Elspeth except that he costs one more and has 2 less loyalty for the bonus that his creatures are three times bigger and that his second ability and ultimate are far more useful. For many decks the 5cc are daunting but in this it is not that important as long as you get enough value out of the one Mana. Getting a 3/3 instead of a 1/1 is obviously a huge difference. Drawing 3 me likes and putting 42-60 power is worth to be called ultimate.

[Brushwagg]

I like Elspeth in this style of deck of 2 reasons. 1 it puts a dude on the table or makes them bigger. The deck has a couple of problems I've been running into.

1. Early board pressure. This problem is easy to solve. I've been thinking of adding another Pridemage, and might switch over Noble Heirarchs since they can swing. They don't produce Black but the deck really wants Green and White more.

2. Card draw. This is the problem I'm having trouble with. The canidates aren't that great. Harmonize costs 4 which doable but seems kind of ehh.. Same goes for Night's Whisper , and Sign in Blood. I would really love to squeeze in something like Ancestral Vision but that brings in the dreaded 4th color for just one card. Phyrexian Arena could be a possiblity also.

[dahcmai]

So what happened to the Zeniths? The thread was named after them and I started reading backwards to catch up on what's been going on with this deck idea and the list's weren't using it.

[Brushwagg]

I found Zenith wasn't really need in the deck. I use to play it but, the style I went for wanted to find Deed more then a green creature. If the style changed for to a Zenith Order board control type deck with Pulse instead of Deed then I think it should find a way in.

[Tao]

Zenith in the thread name is awkward but when I made the thread I thought Zenith was an auto-include because of Cabal Therapy, Explorer and other Green creatures. But the deck somehow works better without Zenith for the reasons that Brushwagg named.

@Brushwagg:
1. That is the classical midrange problem. As soon as you add more early beats you will get dominated by Landstill the next game because you don't have enough gas.

2. The blue version solves that problem. Brainstorm, Jace and Gifts are that card draw (Brainstorm almost feels like draw). There is no playable card draw in other colors.
If you stay in GBW because of Swords and Sun Titan the first card you should try is the new Garruk. It is great with Thrun and you can potentially go nuts with KotR. And when there is no creature in play Garruk is still the card you want to play. Sometimes I evaluate new cards too high but atm I don't have any doubts that the new Garruk will be awesome in any version of this deck.

[Brushwagg]

I've made 2 changes to my list after a few test games. -4 BOP +4 Heirarch and -1 Titan for +1 Pridemage.

This seems to work a little better with the early game. As far as card draw I'm not looking for Cantrips although Brainstorm is nice to have, but not worth weaken the mana base. I'm looking hard at Skeletal Scrying as well.

My Sb has changed as well. But this is for my local meta. Theres like 3-4 SFM and NO decks,and alot of Jace, a couple of Goblins and a Mefolk or two:

3x Wrath of God
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Aven Mindcensor

[sco0ter]

What about Yavimaya Elder in this deck? I browsed magiccards.info for another Explorer-like card, and this is the only one out there (besides Viridian Emissary) and I like its overall synergy with the theme of this deck.

[eq.firemind]

So does anyone tested Garruk, Primal Hunter?

I did a little and man, that was impressive!
Even make 3/3, draw 3 and continue to be pain in opponent's ass is more than nice for :2::g::g::g: in this deck.

For the moment I'm drifting between straight BG (completely neglects Moons and Wastes) and BGw for Swords to Plowshares. The obvious replace for StP is Innocent Blood since it enables Explorer. My current list:

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
11 duals and basics to cover mana requirements

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares/3 Innocent Blood 1 Dismember
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Despair
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Karn Liberated

I opted to go for raw power of high-cmc cards rather than engines.

Even though I run Garruk 2.0, Wall of Blossoms performs better than Tarmogoyf.
KotR were here to help Garruk, but they don't fit well in the deck since we actually want to see many lands which means that additional fetchlands are just unnecessary. And with only 8 fetches KotR is not that impressive.

In search for solution I found Scavenging Ooze. With amount of (green) mana this deck can produce cleaning graveyard becomes easy. And best part is that the card is not bad in tribal and Zoo MU (where other GY-hate cards are meh to useless). In early game you will try to keep the board clean of cats/fish/goblins while setup mana. Then you stabilized board and established mana, just drop Ooze and consume everything you killed earlier (your own Explorers too). This play nets you nice amount of life and big dude that will eat up opposing Goyfs and KotR.

Now the discard part. I started with 2 Hymns (mainly for card advantage, not for disruption), wanted to fit 3rd but finding place was hard. At the same time I wanted to replace one Therapy with something else. So I went through all low-costed green and black sacrifice outlets and found Tendrils of Despair. It does what I wanted from both Hymn and Therapy (card advantage and uncounterable 1-mana sac outlet). So in 6 cards I have 4 extracheap sac outlets, 3 CA cards and 3 turn 1 cards, which is quite spacewise. Oh, and "discard 2" is soo sweet when you're chaining it with Witness!

So that's it. Thoughts?

[Philipp2293]

Good to see this thread upped.

Interesting find in tendrils of despair. Why is there no Volraths Stronghold in your list? I really like that you incorporate SDT.

So far Garruk has been pretty nice in testing. Lately I've been working on on 2 different 4C builds, one without white, one without blue. Been trying to incorporate the Punishing Fire engine, the non white 4C build failed, it wasn't all that bad, but too cute.

Currently I'm toying with GBwr build, loaded heavily with removal, and Garruk and Sun Titan as the bombs. The verdict is still out on this one, may report back if its half decent.

[Tao]

I am also still working on this. Quite a lot. I like your list very much. Good to see someone going a similar direction with this. Scavenging Ooze is a great idea. It fixes lifegain and Graveyard removal which can both be very important to win the long games and not easy to include in the main deck without having to draw bad cards in 2/3 of the matchups. That plus the randomly won games against Reanimator and Dredge if you luck it on turn 2.
Garruk is as good as you say. Growing while making tokens is just awesome and his tokens are three times the size of Elspeth tokens and his other abilities are far more useful in a control deck.
Like I said your list looks really good and well thought of. I would like to know how your Sideboard looks though. Mine is currently

SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ARC] Shriekmaw
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [OD] Innocent Blood

but that is in a blue version with Gifts. Extirpate is not popular among good players but it was clearly the best SB card. Gets rid of Reanimator targets with card advantage, gets Loam for good and it is good against Dredge in a Deed deck.

The deck has so many possible routes, it is hard to find the best one. When I was testing with P Fire in a different deck t didn't do enough, even Merfolk could get around it often with 2 Lords in play. But that was before Stoneforge was everywhere. Against the Mother of Runes / Noble Hierarch / Stoneforge deck it should be great and it kills Jace.

Like I said I am currently still playing with a BUG version. Sensei's Divining Top is nice but Brainstorm is a better card. "4 Brainstorm" offers sufficient libaray manipulation for a much lower cost. On top of that you get a few Jace TMS and Gifts Ungiven which are both very strong and synergetic with the rest of the deck. So before you play a 2 color version because you can survive without Swords I would try the blue splash, the mana base can support it and GB has no comparable cards.

[Philipp2293]

What is your current MD? Still the latest list or do you have an updated version with Garruk?

My main intention behing playing Punishing Fire was that it's good at killing Jace's, while being decent against swarm aggro/Maverick/Stoneforge. So far I couldn't get it to work. (At least not in Explorer builds, I have a Naya Control build right now, but that is so far off the roots of this that it would need another thread).

[Arianrhod]

I've been working on this deck pretty intensively since the thread stopped getting posts -- now I see that it actually did get a few more. Tendrils of Despair is indeed an interesting find -- I'm not sure about room constraints, but it does seem like a worthwhile card to know about, at the very least.

I took the following version of the deck to SCG Open Pitt -- I'll give as much of a report here as I can remember. I was the driver, and it was almost 4 hours one way, so my day was capped by a lot of driving which I'm hoping didn't erase too many details of my wins and losses. I'll tell you now that I went 4-4, so don't expect glory.


4x Veteran Explorer
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Glissa, the Traitor
2x Academy Rector
2x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize

3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile

1x Executioner's Capsule

2x Garruk, Primal Hunter

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Debtors' Knell
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Recurring Nightmare

1x Dryad Arbor

2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Island
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

//Sideboard
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Null Rod
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Innocent Blood
1x Diabolic Edict


Now, for the report:

Round 1: Ed with TES.

He leads off an Underground Sea into an EoT Brainstorm, then sits on one land for a few turns while I build a board presence. Eventually he starts playing Moxen and rituals, but he messes up his ritual mana and comments that he forgot he had another card in hand, so he has to pass the turn to me. A few turns later I Therapy him, naming Infernal Tutor, and he has to pitch two of them. Finks and Garruk token beatdown gets there.

I don't remember my exact sideboarding, but I know that I leave the Swords in for lifegain vs exact storm count, and I brought in 3x Tutor, 1x Chains, 1x Null Rod. Path and Ex. Cap were for sure boarded out.

G2 I get out Null Rod, which he Burnings for a Shattering Spree and kills. He then Ad Nauseums down to 6 or so and kills me in one shot.

G3 I mull to 4 looking for a either a Tutor or a discard spell, and don't find one. He Empties for 12 tokens on turn two or three, and although I have the mana to drop a Deed and get back in the game, I don't find a Deed, and start off at 0-1.

Round 2: Mix Cox with Blue Zoo

If there's one thing this deck can do well, it's squash zoo with a holy vengeance. He shows me Nacatls and Jaces while shuffling, so I know ahead of time that he's on blue zoo. As a result, my turn one Therapy hits a Goyf, revealing Qasali, Grim, Bolt, Misty, and Heath. A few Explorers go off, and I get out a Titan. He double bolts it, and then I get out a Witness to get back Titan, and play Titan on the same turn. They circle-jerk each for a few more turns courtesy of a sac outlet, and he scoops.

I brought in Natural Order for this, since I won g1 with some graveyard shenanigans and that often means hate post-board.

He leads with a fetch for a Tropical Island into a Noble Hierarch. Now, g1 he'd gone out of his way to avoid fetching blue, and since Hierarch makes blue, I knew that he had to have a reason. So I therapy'd him, naming Jace, and got a hit, revealing Swords, Qasali, Wooded x2, and Grim. He dropped Qasali and tried to swing in, but I swords'd it before exalted. Then Natural Order happened, and his life total goes 20->10->dead.

Round 3: Kevin with Deadguy

After commenting on the mirror match of Kevins, we shuffle up.

G1: I mull to 5. This game was ridiculous, with the life totals and information panels from this game alone taking up almost a full page in my notebook. Therapies happened, multiple Bobs happened, tons of removal and all 3 deeds from me, and Durward and Bertoncini flanking us and being entertained by some of my card choices all contributed to this game. I know that g1 he had discarded a Sun Titan out of my hand, and then I had Witnesses it back -- only to have him sick rips a Thoughtseize and take it again. Beyond that, it was a hell of a game, and I think it left my opponent a little scared, as he commented that he was going to be pretty worried if I kept 7. Luckily for him, he didn't have to worry about that.

I have no idea what I sideboarded here. I know I brought in the Edict and Blood, because Deadguy doesn't have so many guys that it can afford to lose many of them. I may have brought in NO just for the additional Threat density, but I don't see a Progenitus kill on my notes, so I dunno.

G2 I also mulled to 5. Whee. My life total never went anywhere but up this game, courtesy of some Finks being annoying as only Finks can be. He had some minor mana issues, as he only had one white source and an Elsepth in hand -- it wasn't really enough to hinder him too much, though. This game ended with a Yosei lock, and a can't win Gifts pile on the way there.

G3 I mull to 6, and I really, really should have mulled to 5. But, after mulling to 5 twice already, I didn't want to, and I suffered the consequences. He had t2 Stoneforge into Batterskull, into pooping out Sword of Body and Mind from his hand, into horrible, horrible death. It was a shame that after two really good games, the match had to end that way, but that's what I get.

Round 4: Dennis with Team America

I was a little bitter from the last round at this point, and I'm fairly sure that I tilted a bit here.

G1 He missteps my Explorer t1, and then plays a Ponder off of a Sea fetched from a Verdant -- this tells me TA, since Bug control doesn't run Ponder. I Therapy, naming Tombstalker -- unfortunately, he has a Clique instead. I drop a Finks and we proceed to beat the crap out of each other for a few turns. Then he eventually removes the Finks and drops a Stalker, and it ends pretty quickly from there.

I bring in the standard anti-blue package, with Choke, Chains, and E.T. (also Wheel of Sun and Moon for Stalker and Goyf shrinkage), and I think I brought in both of the Edict effects as well, due to the deck's low creature count.

G2 He Cliques me, and I E.T. in response, which he then Brainstorms and Forces. A few Hymns, a Jace, and a Stalker later, I'm dead.

Round 5: Justin with GW Cats

At this point, I'm 1-3 and I want to regain some sense of dignity on the day. One of our car is still live, so I stay in and decide to see what I can do.

I saw Wooded Bastion while he was shuffling, and put him on Elves as a result, figuring that the white would be for Mirror Entity. In retrospect, that was dumb, since the Bastion doesn't make green mana on its own, and Elves doesn't play enough lands to get away with a colorless land. I Therapy t1, naming Natural Order (in case I'm wrong on Elves), and see Jitte, Qasali Pridemage, Qasali Ambusher x2, and a Razorverge Thicket. Call me confused. Unfortunately, my hand was a little dodgy and I managed to die to Pridemage beats, after it was pumped by a Jitte and a Wilt-Leaf Liege (!!).

I know I brought in Natural Order, and I think that's it.

G2 sees him having a Bird into a Mirran Crusader into a Glorious Anthem--and hit you for 6 on turn 3. Ow. Spot removal happens, and a Gifts pile for control cards gets me in the game. A second Gifts turns into a Yosei lock, and we're on to 3.

G3 I look at my opening hand and see Explorer, Forest, Phyrexian Tower, and Garruk. I don't think I even looked at the other three cards. He does something inconsequential, and turn two Garruk happens. Garruk takes over the game as only Garruk can do, eventually summoning the Durp Brigade for 7 6/6 tokens, and my opponent packs it in.

Round 6: Chris with Team Italia

G1 here was another long slugfest against an opponent who had a turn 2 Bitterblossom. Frown. Tons of discard and removal keeps me off my threats, but my Therapies have ripped his hand open as well, including a Flashback to take two Bobs that I saw off a different name. I drop a Deed on turn 3 after seeing no Vindicate in hand, hoping to deal with the Blossom -- too bad he draws a Vindicate off the top. I get Garruk out, and proceed to start making Beasts to try to race him. He ignores Garruk and goes after me, getting me down to 9 while leaving behind a token to block. I have five land in play, and choose to draw 3 off Garruk, netting me a land drop and an Explorer, with a Therapy in my graveyard. I mainphase a Gifts, making a pile of Nightmare, Sun Titan, Witness, and Deed -- he looks at my mana and gives me Nightmare and Witness. I play my land, my explorer, sac my explorer, play Nightmare, sac the beast token to Nightmare back Sun Titan, getting back Deed. I wait till he takes one more damage from Blossom, and then blow up the tokens. Titan+Deed proceeds to completely lock him out of the game, and we're on to game two.

I bring in Natural Order, and the Edict/Blood duo, taking out Yosei and some of the graveyard cards, expecting graveyard hate.

G2 he fetches a bunch of times and empties my hand. As before, I focus on removing his threats, knowing that I can draw better than he can. He Extirpates a Garruk that he had Hymn'd away, and takes a bunch of damage from a Veteran Explorer that he just can't bring himself to Swords. He drops to 14, and then I rip a Natural Order off the top, which turns the innocuous Explorer into a 10/10 Hydra. He berates himself a little, since had seen the Orders from Extirpating and still didn't pull the trigger, but I suspect that it wouldn't have mattered. This matchup doesn't seem bad at all.

Round 7: Dan with Cephalid Breakfast

Not exactly a deck I expected to see. I'd recovered to 3-3 at this point, so I was feeling a bit better.

G1 I try to lead with a Thoughtseize, which he missteps. The next turn I Therapy him, and see an Illusionist, alongside a Spellskite, Force, Brainstorm, and Misty. After a bunch of digging and posturing, he eventually finds the other half of the combo and goes off with Mimeoplasm copying Redcap with counters equal to Lord of Extinction. Cute. to be fair, I lost game 1 -- he didn't win it. I had a deed on the table, and I foolishly tapped down for Garruk in an attempt to put a clock on him. I don't think he could have won if I'd just sat on that Deed.

I brought in the Wheel, along with Circle of Pro Red, assuming that the Mimeoplasm would copy the Redcap's color. I wasn't sure about it, but I figured that he probably wouldn't know if that worked either, and would have to speedbump there before going off.

G2 I hit Wheel, and I E.T. for CoP:Red. Unfortunately, he has a Krosan Grip for both of them, and proceeds to go off fairly easily from there, while I am unable to find a Witness or a Titan to get them back.

Round 8: Tony with Wish

Tony's one of my locals -- a good friend that was actually in my car for the day. He was also using my other legacy deck, which I had loaned him. It's a heavily modified BUG control deck that uses Living Wish and a 15-card Wishboard to attack the weak spots of every other legacy deck. I'm pretty proud of it, but apparently I'm the only one capable of playing it, since every time I loan it out, people do poorly with it.

G1 takes most of my notebook page, as we proceed to just haymaker the hell out of each other. I get out a Titan, and he proceeds to Wish for Gilded Drake and take it. I can't deal with my own Titan the next turn, and he proceeds to start Titan/Deeding me. Oh the irony. Eventually I get enough mana that I can blow up the world with Deed, and then he drops a Jace and fateseals me out of the game.

I board in E.T. + Choke and Chains, along with the Natural Order package -and- the Edict/Blood, taking out virtually all of my removal to do so.

I don't really remember g2, beyond that it was fairly uneventful. I had a couple Finks, and they got there.

G3 was a little strange. I naturally drew Choke, but he only had one island -- instead, he had 3 City of Brass, which proceeded to do a lot of damage to him. My life total went nowhere but up, although he eventually resolved a Jace. I tried to O-Ring it, which got countered, and then I played a Sun Titan and brought the O-Ring back. He killed the Titan with a Doom Blade, but I brought it back with a Witness, and they circle-jerked each other enough that he got buried under my recursive card advantage., ending my day at 4-4.

All in all, I have two comments on the deck.

1. When it doesn't feel like being a bitch and gives me hands I can keep, it's amazing.
2. This deck is better than I am.

I chalk 1. up with sheer variance -- any deck is susceptible to having to mulligan, and this one may be a little bit more so than most. At the same time, other decks run Brainstorm, which smooths out some of the variance -- people keep one or two landers all the time with Brainstorm, and frequently manage to get there. At the same time, sometimes they don't.

As for 2., I am firmly convinced that there is an amazing deck here. Even if it isn't exactly right at the moment, it feels powerful and very, very unfair. A bit more tweaking, and there'll be something. More to the point, though, I feel that I need a lot more experience with the deck in tournament situations. I made a fair number of mistakes that I shouldn't have looking back, but at the same time, they seemed like the right thing to do at the time, and only getting experience with the deck will fix that. This deck is HARD to play. It has more tricks that I can even see at the moment.

Glissa + Capsule was underwhelming all day. It was meant to be a package to add a little more recursive removal against things like Zoo and Fish. After Pitt, I can safely say that I don't need any help against Zoo at all. Glissa is a house when she hits, because she either gets removed immediately or completely stops you from being attacked, but beyond that, she's not worth a one-of spot without things to abuse. That said, the package may warrant consideration in the future depending on meta shifts. At the moment, definitely not worth it.

Anyone not running Dryad Arbor is doing it wrong. I'm just going to flat-out say that. As a fetch-able emergency Therapy sac to take something you NEED to get from their hand, or a way to trigger Recurring Nightmare out of nowhere, it's amazing. You can also fetch for it at the end of the turn and proceed to tap it for mana and then feed it to a Phryexian Tower for miniature boost in mana. I also successfully fetched into a blocker to kill a Dark Confidant. I would not run more than one, because it often sucks when it's in your hand, but there needs to be one in this deck, even if you aren't running Natural Order out of the board.

The sideboard is questionable for me. I used everything in it multiple times today except for the Ensnaring Bridge, which is going to become a Runed Halo. At the same time, I didn't like the feel of the Enlightened Tutor package. I love having the situational bullet enchantments, since they make Rector all the more amazing, but the Tutor part of the equation felt weak to me. Again, though, at the same time, they allow for speed against matchups where it's necessary. You need to find your Wheel of Sun and Moon against Dredge a lot faster than Rector can get it -- especially with two Rectors. Likewise with CoP: Red and Burn. I'm not going to change it for the moment, but I might mess with it in the future. The synergies with Sun Titan and Rector was just too much to ignore, even if they feel weak on their own. Besides, you can always bring in -just- the E.T.s against something like Goblins, Elves, or Merfolk as an additional way to find Pernicious Deed, which is nice.

[Koby]

Thank you for the report, it's very interesting to read your experience with the deck.

I'm working on putting the pieces together right now and tinker around with some of the different packages. What are some of your typical Gifts piles that you used to take control of the game?

[Tao]

@arian: Thanks for the report! I have the same thoughts. I am sure that a very high tier deck is somewhere in this but it is hard to play and build.
Your list seems a bit too wild. 4 colors with 22 lands including 3 colorless lands and 9 lands that produce only one colour. And only 6 fetchlands. I am sure that is the main reason for mulliganing too often.

Natural Order sounds like really good. We have a ton of sacrificable creatures, we have Therapy to clear the path and we need a reliable win condition. And we are weak against Progenitus. Am I missing something? Isn't this maindeck stuff at least in the blue versions with Brainstorm?

@Philipp: I don't have a good list atm that I am 10% behind so I didn't feel good posting it.

[Koby]

I was wondering if Birthing Pod would make a good fit into this deck? It seems busted getting an Academy Rector by sacing any of the 3-drops. Has anyone experimented with it yet?

[Philipp2293]

I did actually toy around with Birthing Pod, but couldn't figure out a perfect configuration yet.

But 3 drops - Explorer(/Solemn Simulacrum maybe?) -> Yosei -> Titan seems at least like a good starting point for such a chain.

Additional thought:

IMHO the deck is starting to do too many things. You can assemble stuff with Rector and Gifts, why not just go one route? This way you could either drop blue or white.

[Arianrhod]

@Tao -- NO main is something that I have considered a few times, but I like it better in the sideboard to answer graveyard hate after g1, so that people misboard. I suppose that you could have a limited graveyard package + NO main, but I think that it would cut down on the answers too much. I see this deck more as control with a combo finish than anything else.

It does seem a little wild on paper, I'll grant you, but in practice it's much less so. There's only three blue cards in the entire deck, which is a slight enough splash that it rarely ever causes problems. Additionally, with the Explorers, color fixing and hitting 6+ mana is not a problem at all. I did run a few more land at one point, but I flooded too much. Maybe with Brainstorm one could get away with it, but I don't see a Brainstorm-less version being able to run more than 22 or 23 at the absolute tops. The tower almost always has something to feed to it, so I don't really consider that truly colorless. The trick is that when I've been testing it locally, it hasn't mulliganed anywhere near as much as it did at Pitt. I've logged a pretty good number of hours with this deck, and it hadn't reacted like that yet -- I'm going to wait at least another couple of events before messing with the mana base to see if that would improve anything. Other than this weekend, it just hasn't been a problem at all.

@rukcus -- the Gifts piles are usually very situational. A few standard ones would be something like Nightmare + Yosei + Witness + Sun Titan for the kill, Swords + Path + Fleshbag + Witness for dealing with a problem creature, (postboard) Blood + Edict + Fleshbag + Witness for getting rid of an S&T Emrakul or NO/Prog. Titan + Witness + Therapy + Rector is another pile that I use fairly often, just to set up control of the game, as is Titan + Witness + Nightmare + Deed. Then consider specific answer cards, specific situations, and having certain cards in your hand, and everything can change -- if you have a Witness in hand, or an active Titan in play, for example, some of the Gifts piles you can make do absolutely degenerate things. In the future I'll try to note down some of the piles I make in specific situations, because that's one of the hardest parts of the whole deck. I know I didn't make the best piles every time I resolved Gifts this weekend, and that's just going to take time, I think. Could be interesting to look at, if nothing else.

Taking out Glissa and the Capsule opens up one spot. This list was 61, because I wanted the 6th discard spell but didn't know what to take out, so I just ran with it. So, once it's back to 60, I'll have another bullet spot to work with. There's a huge number of options, so it's probably going to take a while -- especially since every single spot in a deck like this is so crucial.

[Solpugid]

Could that slot become retribution of the meek to handle NO/S&T creatures (plus goyf, tombstalker, knight) without having to deed the board first? Seems like your gifts piles can make sure it lands in your hand, and it would have helped in a lot of your matchups. In a pinch it can at least off your own yosei.

Your report was a lot of fun to read, I'll be interested to see how this deck develops.

[Arianrhod]

It could -- that's something I'm considering, but at this point I think the first thing I'm going to test is adding the 3rd Rector.

I had a random idea a few minutes ago, and I figured I'd store it here for posterity. I don't know the efficacy of this idea, especially since we can just board in NO, but we could reasonably sideboard the Hulk plan, I think. We have a lot of the same ways to sac creatures that they do, if not more, and with our Explorers for ramp, we could hardcast the Hulk fairly easily. I don't think that it's that good of an idea, but it may be there a hybridization between Explorer the card and the Hulk combo could work.

RE Birthing Pod: I think that there is a deck that could use Birthing Pod in Legacy that hasn't been found yet. At the same time, I don't think that this deck is it. It seems like it might use a lot of the same cards, admittedly -- Kitchen Finks springs immediately to mind as being busted with Pod, but I'm not sure that shoehorning it into here would necessarily be the best plan -- if you want to try that, you'd have to rebuild the deck from the ground up, I think.

[Koby]

I plan on doing so. I'm hoping that the artifact hate isn't rampant enough to allow it to work. Moreover, I'm hoping the deck is fast enough to make Birthing once (or maybe twice) would be enough to gain advantage and win.

It's a shame Bloodbraid Elf it's a EtB trigger ;)

[sco0ter]

I tried Birthing Pod. In my experience you need many creatures (as Survival did), like 22+, and more important a good curve. It's even hard to squeeze 4 Deeds in it. Maybe they aren't really needed. Probably Birthing Pod belongs into another deck, with more creatures and a good curve.

Here's an untested idea (maybe one could even run 4 Explorers and cut 2 drops). The old RGBSA and current T2 lists inspired me ;)

Tuktuk + Cabal Therapy actually seems quite nice on paper, too.


4 Birthing Pod

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Burning Wish

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Veteran Explorer

3 Viridian Emissary
3 Wall of Blossoms

1 Eternal Witness
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Tuktuk the Explorer

1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Vengevine

1 Shriekmaw
1 Indrik Stomphowler

1 Massacre Wurm
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One

4 Bayou
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Primal Command
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 1 Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon

[Brushwagg]

I like the idea of Pod, I was actually thinking about it today, but really should be a new thread.

@List:Where has KotR gone?? Not just for the beater slot but put a small land tool box in the deck. I've been running a Wasteland but, I'm going to try out Dust Bowl. Basically there to deal with the problem lands, but I will cut my opponent off a color or kill there only land if I can.

[waSP]

Is there a reason the blue builds are not running Jace? I've yet to draw him in testing, but it seems like he would be strong. Maybe not as strong as Karn, but...

[Arianrhod]

I've tried Jace in mine -- both big and little Jace. Little Jace was amusing because you can Titan it, which turns it into a Jace-machine gun and a card advantage engine. The problem is the UU mana cost. I can handle a single U for three Gifts Ungiven pretty easily -- more than that, though, and it gets dicey. You'd have to cut a color if you wanted Jace, for sure.

[Tao]

This is the list I am currently using. The Ooze and Natural Order idea were essential.
I re-added GSZ in favor of two Explorers. It is often just the same because most one landers are mulligans anyway so you can just GSZ him and have it be a much better card later in the game. Not sure if DSZ/Explorer split should be 3/2 or 2/3.
The Ooze makes GSZ flexible enough and with Natural Order it gets better anyway. Now it can get Mana, Life, Yard hate, Disenchant, Regrowth and threats.

Natural Order was very much worth it. Not sure if 2 or 3 is the correct number but 2 feels fine. It is a win condition but can't race anything so not that many are needed. With Gifts you can always tutor for it (Regrowth, Witness, Natural Order + X) so it is like playing 4 if you need it to win.


// Lands
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
1 [B] Island
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
2 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [ARC] Wickerbough Elder
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [JGC] Natural Order
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
1 [B] Regrowth
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [ARC] Wall of Roots
SB: 1 [ARC] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 1 [M10] Doom Blade

[Arianrhod]

How's the Wall of Blossoms working out for you? I'd think about cutting that for the other 2 Explorers and probably either a 2nd Finks or another GSZ target -- I just don't know how good the Wall is going to be without having Sun Titan to rebuy it. Since you're much heavier blue, you probably won't be able to avoid having an Island against Fish, so they won't do much there. I guess they're good against Goblins and Zoo, but I'm skeptical elsewhere. Otherwise it looks good. Pretty different in style from mine, but definitely good. It's pretty neat how this archetype seemingly has a lot of sub-archetypes within it...almost like the old Survival decks.

For what it's worth, though, I do really disagree with cutting the 2 Explorers. I'm not sure if Blossoms is the right cut or not, but I'd really try to put them back in. Maybe the heavier blue version works a little differently, since you have Brainstorm, but for me, having multiple Explorers go off to thin my deck means that I will win almost every late-game topdeck war due to having so many fewer land in my deck. That's to say nothing of the nutty starts that Explorer + Tower or Therapy can lead to...I think having 4x Explorer is pretty mandatory. But by all means, try it and see how it goes.

[Tao]

My theory behind reducing Explorer: Explorer has high variance. There are hands and matchups in which I don't want him so it is good to have GSZ instead. A starting hand of 4 lands, Cabal Therapy and Maelstrom Pulse gets way better with GSZ than with Explorer as the 7th card for example.
And when I want him he is so incredibly awesome that he is easily worth 2 Mana so having a GSZ is ok then too.

Wall of Blossoms is good. Saves a removal or some life points and stabilizes your draws. Cycling is a useful ability in this type of decks. On top of that it has important synergy with Cabal Therapy and Natural Order.

[hyperchord24]

I tried switching out wall of blossoms for lotus cobra and all though cobra gives you a little ramp, sometimes, I would rather have had the extra card and the big butt.

I gave up on this deck because everytime I blew up an explorer, my playtesting partner would thank me and proceed to roll over me. I tried a Train-Wreck esque version with cabal coffers instead of explorers, but that was just bad.

I would love to pick this deck up again, but I am REALLY skiddish about giving my opponent extra lands.

Do you have to be choosy when you blow him up or do you do it whenever you have some things in your hand to cast?

[Philipp2293]

The Zenith/Veteran Explorer split is a really good idea IMO. Not to sure about NO maindeck though. The problem with Lotus Cobra when I tried it was that it ate removal, a lot, and that it didn't do nearly enough vs fast decks.

[Arianrhod]

@Hyperchord -- What were you testing against? There's only a few decks that actually use anywhere near as many basics as this deck does, and most of them are easily enough vanquished by the simple fact that we do more powerful things than they do. Granted, most decks can get some use out of the first explorer. But at the time at which the first explorer dies, there is probably a Therapy resolving off Flashback, taking the threat that they will want to use that mana for, or else you're going to be dropping a Garruk, Rector, Deed, or Gifts off of a Tower (or a Therapy, sometimes). It's a question of sheer power -- this deck has more of it than most, and with the disruption and acceleration to make it work. I'd be very interested to know what you were testing against.

[hyperchord24]

^Ascension with planeswalkers and Dragon Stompy. I wasn't playing the gifts version though and it was before Garruk 2.0 was spoiled.

EDIT: We both misunderstood Explorers ability to get lands and fetched duals. I'm sure that didn't help me against Steel Stompy. I'll have to proxy up the new Garruk and sleeve the deck up again.

[Arianrhod]

Haha, yeah, if Explorer could get duals, that would make this deck a -lot- worse. Definitely give it a try armed with that knowledge.

I'm currently testing my list as per the last page, with the following changes: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Glissa, -1 Ex. Cap, +1 Rector, +2 Tendrils of Despair (60 cards even). I'll be sure to post later with my results from that -- on paper, it looks like Tendrils could be amazing against the matchups that this deck traditionally has trouble with, but we'll see. I'm also switching out City of Solitude in my sideboard for a Runed Halo, and I'm going to try to find one more spot for a Sundial of the Infinite. I may just cut both of the Edict effects for the Sundial and the 4th Natural Order. We'll see. I did enjoy having a little more spot removal, especially removal that hits Show/Telled Emrakuls and NO/Progenitii, but with the changes I'm making, my answer suite may be good enough at this point that they're just unnecessary.

[Philipp2293]

Did you never feel that you were too light on E. Witness? 2 seems a little low to me.

[hyperchord24]

I was thinking about natural order, but could pattern of rebirth be better? It's a little easier on the mana base and gets you any creature. But it's not quite "oops, I win" if you don't have a sac outlet and I don't know how much better running emrakul over progenitus is.

Also, if you drop white from the deck, you lose sun titan. I was thinking about running consecrated sphinx or Sheoldred, Whispering One in its place. I don't know if it's the timmy in me, but I loved locking the opponent out with Sun Titan.

Also, this looks a little like the lists in the planeswalker rock thread. There are a lot of directions this deck could go in.

[Arianrhod]

I think that Progenitus is actually harder to deal with than Emrakul at this point, although Emrakul does give you some built-in protection against Painter/Grindstone. Emrakul is just such a known entity that putting him into play is a little risky at this point. I'm not saying that it's impossible to deal with, but it seems easier than Prog. And GG should not be a problem for this deck's mana base, at all -- it's a base-green deck.

I am also far too attached to my Sun Titan to drop white, although I would argue that it's the Johnny instead of the Timmy. There's just too many cool interactions that can be abused with Titan, especially in a deck like this one. White also makes Finks easier to cast, and gives access to Swords/Path and Rector, as well as Enlightened Tutor sideboards. All of these things are important to my mind, although I'll grant that the E.T. sideboard is a little questionable.

RE: Planeswalker Rock -- they have a nice primer in the first post, but otherwise it looks very similar. They seem much more focused on what they're doing, whereas we're kind of all over the place -- some of us are in blue for Jace and Brainstorm, some of us play Gifts, some of us are straight BG. Someone (I think it was Phillip) commented a few pages back that he was working with red, as well. I think that the core region where we diverge from them is that they focus entirely around the planeswalkers (it's even in the deck title). This thread is much more of a pile of different plans -- but most of those plans are not incorporated into the Planeswalker deck. You wouldn't see a deck like that running Gifts, or even Titans, probably. At the same time, I could easily see it morphing into something like what's being developed here, or possibly even the other way around.

I guess, in short, that if I had to say anything regarding the 'Walker Rock thread, it's that it is another version of what we're working on here: a core archetype that revolves around the interaction between Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy, and works outward from there. There's just too many possible divergent paths all based around those two cards -- it reminds me greatly of the Survival era.

EDIT -- I forgot to address Phillip's post. In my experience, 2 Witnesses is just right. Either I have one in hand, in which case Gifts is dumb, or I Gifts for one, in which case it's almost invariably one of the cards I get. Outside of Gifts situations, it does some good work, but not really good enough that I think I'd want to add any more. Regrowing Swords and stuff like that is good, and I would advocate running 3 or even 4 in non-Gifts versions, but for me and my personal list, 2 is pretty much spot on, in my experience. Especially since I can abuse it with Sac Outlet + Titan, or Volrath's Stronghold.

[Tao]

I had time this evening and registered at magic-league to play a Trial with 48 players. I took out Gifts again and went for a 2 color version, similar to the one from Firemind but with Green Sun's Zenith. Green Sun's Zenith is amazing and I don't know why I had ever cut it.


// Lands
4 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower


// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
1 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
2 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim


R1 Staxx:

G1: He leads with plains and I can play Explorer but don't want it to get Sworded. I also had not much late game stuff so it might help him more than me if it dies. When he plays a turn 2 Trinisphere I see what his deck is and regret not playing the Explorer, didnt think about Staxx and Chalice would have been just as bad. He has a turn three Elspeth but luckily I have the Maelstrom Pulse. Next turn I can GSZ for Witness on Pulse and keep the Pulse in hand. I play Garruk while he has Moat plus Humility. I just sit back and make Tokens, keep lands in hand in case he Armageddon. I make 6 1/1 Wurms to go with my 4 1/1 Beasts and pass the turn. I destroy his Moat and attack for 10 (lethal).

+ 3 Nature's Claim
- 3 Cabal Therapy

G2: I Pulse an Elspeth again (should play third Pulse in Side), Hymn him and leave him with nothing relevant on board and no card in hand. Unfortunately he rips Ravages of War in the one turn before I can play something relevant. He gets Humility and a lot of lands, I get only two lands and draw Green Sun's Zenith EVERY turn. Fortunatley I win the game awkwardly with triple Explorer + Dryad Arbor beatdown.


R2 Aggro Loam with P Fire:

G1: He is ahead with won die roll and T1 Confidant, T2 Crusher. I play Deed and when he played Burning Wish with 2 Mana up I thought I lost to Reverent Silence or Hull Breach. But he wished for Devastating Dreams. No Enchantment Removal? He dreams for 2 (rest of his hand) and has no hand, 1 Land and a crusher, effectively locking himself out of the game after I Deeded for 0. I evetually have to chump his enourmous Crusher with Explorer though, but he had his one basic land already in yard. I am quite sure that this was played wrong from my opponent. He overreacted to my Deed and went all in on his lone Crusher. He probably should have Wished for Loam and just rebuild his board.

+ 4 Extirpate
+ 4 Chainers Edict
- 3 Therapy
- 4 Hymn
- 1 Garruk

G2: He starts with Mox Mox Loam, I Extirpate Loam. He plays Crusher, I Edict. He plays Crusher, I Pulse. He plays Knight of the Reliquiary, I rip another Edict. In his Draw Step I Extirpate his KotRs. He plays Goyf and Burning Wish for Loam. I Witness for Edict, planning to Rec. Nightmare the Witness back after chumping and get Extirpate. He dredges Worm Harvest so I am forced to Extirpate that instead and leave him with Loam plus cycle lands. The game goes on and he doesn't stop pressuring me (Triple Mox plus Loam and three cycle lands does that quite good) but I can Extirpate his Punishing Fire before he goes nuts with it and eventually even Tarmogoyf (never had time to go for Loam) to leave him with no win conditions after having dredged his last Crusher. I have to say the deck performed really well and there are not many decks that would have withstood his strong draw.


R3 Merfolk

G1: He starts with Vial / Lord of Atlantis. I have Deed and he floods with 8 lands 7 spells and my Garruk resolves. Very easy game because of that.

+ 4 Chainer's Edict
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze

G2: Too many Lords and a crucial Daze get me. Was too slow to stabilize.

G3: I Hymn him and when he doesn't Daze you know he probably does not have it. I feel good about my turn 3 Deed and it resolves and gets 2 Cursecatchers, a vial and an Adept. From then on I obviously have easy control. I drop to 4 life but always had leeway. Deranged hermit plus Rec Nightmare finish the job with style. But without Deed the matches might have been complicated.

R4 bye


R5 Merfolk
G1: I get Therpay plus Explorer. I guess right that he has an Lord of Atlantis in hand, then Flashback on his Reejerey, leaving him with a lot of irrelevant stuff and no pressure. My hand is Witness plus Recurring Nightmare plus Grave Titan. ezpz, thx deck for cooperating so well

SB:
+ 4 Chainer's Edict
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze

G2: I Edict his Adept, then he Forces a Pulse on Reejerey. I have low Mana but get GSZ on Explorer plus the Phyrexian Tower. With my Mana now fixed Grave Titan again gets there again, this time without help. Games didnt take longer than 5 minutes combined and I didnt need Deed.


R6: Merfolk again

G1: My opponent is late so I win G1 because of Tardiness.

G2: I open with Therapy plus GSZ into Explorer. That way I establish Control but he draws a Coralhelm Commander to fly over for 6 a turn. I leave him one draw step to find a Force for GSZ on Spike Weaver and unfortunately he does. But I rip too, the Weaver himself next turn, so he is locked because I have Recurring Nightmare for infinite Fogging as long as I don't let my Nightmare get countered. I play it ultra safe because I have so much stuff and think I have him hard locked. Nothing happens and I win easily with Nightmare / Witness shenanigans but in retrospect I maybe should have played a bit tighter because Dismember on Weaver would have still been lethal and some Folk lists maindeck that.

+ draws and deck, won Trial
- Magic League: they refuse to name the deck "Nic Fit" because that name doesn't describe what the deck is doing -_-

[conboy31]

Congrats on the win! I was playing around with building a 4 color version to play at Gencon for the Legacy championships. I could not quite get the numbers down and ended up playing a Ubw control deck that went 2-2 drop in favor of a vintage side event because I was having strong success in vintage the day before.

I think getting back to a simple and stable GB version is strong and more consistent then the 3 and even 4 color version I was attempting.

[hyperchord24]

How were 4 copies of GSZ? I saw you drew few in a row in one match. I wanted to try arbor with GSZ and no natural order as well, but thought it might not be very useful without NO. I like the list. And Garruk 2.0 is absolutely awesome.

[Philipp2293]

Congrats man.

Have you considered Hornet Queen instead of Deranged Hermit?

[Maveric78f]

Damn mouse with a "previous page" shortcut that deleted all my brilliant analysis. In a less argumented way :

Congrats Tao.

Remarks :
1/ Not a single instant removal, even in SB. The reanimator MU must be horrible.
2/ I'm not a fan of wall of blossom. 4th veteran is more effective at reaching the late game earlier. 2nd, 3rd and 4th finks is more effective at containing the opponent, even if it comes into play 1 turn later.
3/ Are you sure about hymn over 1CC targeted discard which reveals the opponent's hand for later cabals?
4/ How can you play less than 4 deeds ?
5/ You play too many 1-slot creatures according to me.
6/ Also I'd play 2/3 tops. With all the shuffling effects, it would be amazing.

I'd go :
// Lands
4 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [B] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower


// Creatures
0 [SH] Wall of Blossoms (-4)
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer (+1)
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks (+3)
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
0 [EX] Spike Weaver (-1)
0 [UL] Deranged Hermit (-1)
0 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll (-1)
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
0 [M11] Grave Titan (-1)

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (or duress/seizes, I don't know)
2 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed (+1)
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter (+1)
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top (+2)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim

Something like this. I'd try to find some cheap instant removal in the SB, probably Dismember (deals with Jin-G).

[Tao]

@conboy: Thanks. Getting the numbers right on this is deck is frustrating. I still don't know if the 2-color version is the way to go or if I want Swords to Plowshares or Brainstorm or both.

@hyperchord24: GSZ was strong from turn 1/2 to the late game and ~always a welcome top deck. The opponent having Humility in play won't happen often, especially in combination with Armageddon to kill the Deed Mana.

@Philipp: Thanks. Giving the tokens Death Touch would be the best ability on Tokens ever but unfortunately Hornet Queen is that one Mana too expensive. GSZ for 8 Mana is not going to work.

@Maverick: Thanks.

- Instant Removal: You are right. Chainer's Edict should certainly be replaced with Diabolic Edicts. I thought quite long about that slot before the tournament but only in theory and never actually tested with this sideboard. I had Shriekmaw in that slot because it gets Merfolk Lords and Emrakul and has synergy with Nightmare. But it doesn't get Progenitus or Jin Gitaxias (in an acceptable fashion) and I didn't want to be cold to it because of the success that RUG and Reanimator have. That is why I decided to play an Edict and Innocent Blood is too often a horrible topdeck. So I went for Chainer because of the Extra value but just forgot that playing Chainer's Edict on Jin Gitaxias is very fail.

- Wall of Blossoms is imo good. The cycling is useful and they have synergy with Therpay. They gain life for not much Mana and if Hymn is not drawn there is not much else to do on turn 2 anyway. I just have better results with them doing their silent work. Blocking a 3/2 Adept and chumping when it gets 4/3 accumulates pretty quickly.

- About Hymn I am very sure! It is devastating for every opponent and one of the main reasons to stay in 2 colors. It was awesome in testing as well as in the tournament.

- Deed is dead in quite a few matchups: Storm Combo, Reanimator, Landstill. Not getting Planeswalkers is a big issue. Probably I go back to 4 Deeds though, like always ;)

- 1 slot creatures that you mentioned:
Spike Weaver: Very important, not wise to cut it. Locks the game until they draw spot removal and then you can revive it unless they kill you in one hit. The first Fog to survive is expensive, but then the two normal fogs for 1 Mana give you the time to develop your board or set up a big Deed.
Thrun, the Last Troll: A rare GSZ target. I wanted it in the deck because it usually performs well when drawn and because I expected Landstill. Could easily be replaced by more Finks if you want to draw more Finks rather than him.
Deranged Hermit: With 4 GSZ you need something big at some point. Hermit is the best choice for that slot.
Grave Titan: replaced a Karn with it 5 minutes before the tournament. Just something big to draw into and finish the game. I wouldn't replace it with a Finks, the deck needs some heavy cards at the top of the curve.
- Kitchen Finks: I think you overrate them. The problem is that they get dominated easily so playing 4 of them in a control deck without card draw can cause you to run out of gas.

- Sensei Top: imo just not the right card for this deck. The deck needs both spells and lands but Sensei can get you only one. The topdeck quality is still excellent even without it, thanks to GSZ, Witness, Recurring Nightmare and others.


@changes:
MD:
Just adding the fourth Deed and a third Pulse for creatures would lead to those awkward draws with only Removal and Discard and nothing to do. Hymn was awesome and is a certain 4-of. And Cabal Therapy is needed for Explorer.

SB:
- 4 Chainer's Edict
+ 4 Diabolic Edict
- 1 Nature's Claim
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse

[Maveric78f]

For Hymn and top, I'm still not convinced...

About Finks, playing 4 of them is probably too much. It was great when zoo was 25% of the field (in the worst case it traded for 2 life, 1 card and 1 land acceleration with path, in the best case it was killing 1 creature, gaining 4 life and chump blocking twice). Now, with a slow metagame and GSZ, 2 are probably enough.

Spike Weaver, maybe, but it's still 6 mana for the first fog that gets easily RFG. Poof, unswordable, Spore Frog looks better isn't it ?

Deranged Hermit is still bad if you ask me. You might have a look to this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21549-MonoG-Zenith-Abuse/page3) for the good 5/6CC GSZ targets. I'm not sure you need one though.

[Tao]

@Maveric:

About Hymn I am very sure. Which player is not terrified when he faces a Hymn? Dredge and Loam I guess but except them it is good against everything.
About Top I am not so sure. So far it does not seem like it is needed. With all the Zeniths, Walls, Nightmares, Witnesses and Garruks I rarely run out of gas.

Spore Frog is imo slightly worse. The advantage is that it is easier to fog once to survive. The disadvantage is that keeping it forces you to use Recurring Nightmare every turn so it becomes hard to find time doing other stuff. When drawn Spike Weaver is far better too.

Imo Deranged Hermit is the best alternative. Immune to Yard hate, still good when Sworded, relatively cheap, very synergetic with Recurring Nightmare (not paying Echo and then reviving it with one of the Tokens).
I thought about Terastadon but paying 9 Mana is unrealistic. Rampaging Baloths out of GSZ don't give anything when Sworded unless you have 7 Mana in play plus a land in hand.

[Philipp2293]

=Tao;575275@Philipp: Thanks. Giving the tokens Death Touch would be the best ability on Tokens ever but unfortunately Hornet Queen is that one Mana too expensive. GSZ for 8 Mana is not going to work.



My bad, since I was at work, I didn't look up the Queen, so I thought it was a strict upgrade to Hermit with similar or identical manacosts. You're right. Too bad, a GSZ able pseudo deed vs aggro decks would have been absurd.

[conboy31]

I just looked through every green / green + x color creature on magiccards.info looking specifically to see if a 5 or 6 drop creature has been overlooked. It doesn't seem like it. I also looked at off color gold creatures to zenith into and splash a single dual land. Found nothing. I was briefly excited when I saw Vulturous Zombie, it is a 5 drop and from the new commander set which I did not pay much attention to. I then read his abilities and power for the first time. It is trash... oh well.
I am looking forward to the printing of a 3BG creature to zenith for in this deck with a nice CIPT.

[novatinhu]

My current build:




// Lands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Scrubland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Uktabi Orangutan
3 Kitchen Finks

// Spells
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Angel's Grace
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

[Philipp2293]

I like the inclusion of StP, but I think you are way too light on stuff the actually wins you the game. My 2 cents.

[Maveric78f]

I just looked through every green / green + x color creature on magiccards.info looking specifically to see if a 5 or 6 drop creature has been overlooked. It doesn't seem like it. I also looked at off color gold creatures to zenith into and splash a single dual land. Found nothing. I was briefly excited when I saw Vulturous Zombie, it is a 5 drop and from the new commander set which I did not pay much attention to. I then read his abilities and power for the first time. It is trash... oh well.
I am looking forward to the printing of a 3BG creature to zenith for in this deck with a nice CIPT.

In 5CC creatures, if you're looking for:
- a domination of the board: Lord of Extinction or Spiritmonger
- a utility creature: Acidic Slime
- a creature that cannot be dealt with: Grave-Shell Scarab or Gigapede
- a high number of blockers: Deranged Hermit or Ant Queen

Also the 5-split-mana gods are all worth considering attention, in particular Deus of Calamity.

But once again, I'm not sure you need this. GSZ on Witness is already generally the best move you can get when having loads of mana.

[Tao]

In 5CC creatures, if you're looking for:
- a domination of the board: Lord of Extinction or Spiritmonger
- a utility creature: Acidic Slime
- a creature that cannot be dealt with: Grave-Shell Scarab or Gigapede
- a high number of blockers: Deranged Hermit or Ant Queen

Also the 5-split-mana gods are all worth considering attention, in particular Deus of Calamity.

But once again, I'm not sure you need this. GSZ on Witness is already generally the best move you can get when having loads of mana.

The deck has a lot of mana so having some expensive cards is just natural. Grave Titan for example is worth his Mana and I would recommend not cutting it. Maybe even a second Titan could be played but there are so few slots. With 4 GSZ it is good to have something like a finisher. Deranged Hermit is imo the best choice green has for this slot all things considered. It puts a lot of pressure on on a control deck, often stabilizes the board against aggro, has synergy with Recurring Nightmare, is good against spot removal and is not affected by yard hate. No other green creature for under seven Mana can do so many that this deck wants.
Spiritmonger is a vanilla 6/6 (all 3 abilities are basically irrelevant). Acidic Slime is competition for Wickerbough Elder but not a game winner. Deus ability in a deck that tries to suicide Veteran Explorer is bad. Scarab and Gigapede just win long drawn out games but GSZ on Witness usually does that too.

[Freggle]

The deck has a lot of mana so having some expensive cards is just natural. Grave Titan for example is worth his Mana and I would recommend not cutting it. Maybe even a second Titan could be played but there are so few slots. With 4 GSZ it is good to have something like a finisher. Deranged Hermit is imo the best choice green has for this slot all things considered. It puts a lot of pressure on on a control deck, often stabilizes the board against aggro, has synergy with Recurring Nightmare, is good against spot removal and is not affected by yard hate. No other green creature for under seven Mana can do so many that this deck wants.
Spiritmonger is a vanilla 6/6 (all 3 abilities are basically irrelevant). Acidic Slime is competition for Wickerbough Elder but not a game winner. Deus ability in a deck that tries to suicide Veteran Explorer is bad. Scarab and Gigapede just win long drawn out games but GSZ on Witness usually does that too.

If your looking for a finisher go to CMC 6 and drop in a Vigor. ...it's lights out with your loved hermit squirrels.

Edit: Also on Rampaging Baloths:

@Maveric:
Rampaging Baloths out of GSZ don't give anything when Sworded unless you have 7 Mana in play plus a land in hand.

This looks like a pessimistic outlook. It also doesn't do anything when your GSZ is countered. :) I say play to win, and let your opponent worry about stopping you. Don't let a possible outcome stop you from adding a good card.

You don't need a land in hand necessarily. A grave bound Veteran can trigger 2 4/4's. Or a Scryb Ranger can net you a land fall out of nowhere, and should be considered regardless for all the other tricks it provides. (see this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21549-MonoG-Zenith-Abuse&p=575674#post575674) again for a different take) toMAYto / toMAHto {shrug} Just my two cents.

[MtgPhreakin]

How about combining Veteran Explorer with Aven Mindcensor ?

[Tao]

Scryb Ranger is horrendous in this. This deck is not even remotely comparable to the Mono Green Zenith deck. This is a control deck while the other list is some kind of Ramp/Aggro hybrid. And of course you should consider possible outcomes when you build a deck. In a deck with no other good targets for Swords to Plowshares (Explorer can be sacced immediately to Therapy / Tower) it is bad to give them a juicy target if you don't have to.

Aven Mindcensor was suggested before. If the deck would care about the opponent getting free lands it wouldn't play Explorer in the first place.

[honz]

got top8 at a local tournament with a 3-2 record with the following list:

4 Windswept heath
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Marsh flats
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor

4 Green sun's zenith
2 Recurring Nightmare
1 Birthing pod
3 Pernicious deed
2 Maelstrom pulse
3 Hymn to tourach
3 Cabal therapy
2 Garruk, primal hunter

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bird of paradise
3 Skinshifter
1 Wall of blossoms
4 Eternal witness
1 Kitchen finks
1 Aven mindcensor
1 Harmonic sliver
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Deranged Hermit

SB:
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Loaming shaman
1 Pernicious deed
3 Diabolic edict
3 Krosan grip
1 Cold-eyed selkie
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
2 Angel's grace

I could write a small report if anyone is interested.

I think a small white splash (1 plains, maybe 1 savannah) is well worth it, but only for 3 cards: aven mindcensor, harmonic sliver (way better than the alternatives), angel's grace (hivemind). Mindcensor is there against decks that play intuition, natural order, infernal tutor, stoneforge mystic, and zenith. Decks not playing these cards, i most likely board out mindcensor.

Just some notes from playing the deck:
Hymn is the right card here, the deck needs a turn 2 bomb.
Birthing pod only resolved in 2 games, but it won those 2 games for me.
Skinshifter is good but not great, however the alternatives (goyf, qsali, wall of blossoms) are even more underwhelming.
Pulse is amazing, and i want to find room for a 3rd. Spot removal, can 2 for 1, and hits planeswalkers.
I wanted a zenith target that could destroy a creature, but I don't know of one that exists (i.e. shriekmaw, necrotic sliver, or fleshbag marauder, but green). There's also a hole at 4cc, which i plugged with thrun (which isnt a bad choice), but i feel like there's something better out there in this slot.

I regret not playing orzhov pontiff somewhere in the 75.
This deck folds to most show and tell decks (hivemind specifically).
recurring nightmare is underrated.

[Tao]

-

[Tao]

Congratulations? Too bad it wasnt enough for a 4-1 or 5-0. Would be very interested in a report.

- I agree with the 3rd Pulse. Probably in the side though because the maindeck is overly full.

- Birthing Pod. Great suggestion. Upgrading Explorer into Wall into Finks into Wickerbough Elder into Deranged Hermit sounds like fun. What I especially like is that it could tutor removal (Bone Shredder, Shriekmaw). And upgrading Shriekmaw into Grave Titan, yeah, that is fair. I think it was mentioned before but I never really considered it. Its onboard CMC of 4 even survives most Deeds. With your good experiences and some more thoughts I guess I have to try it now :)

- Skinshifter is not good. That I don't have to test. Tarmogoyf is usually bigger than a 4/4 Skinshifter anyway and that without being forced to pay G every turn, especially after a Deed.

- The SB was made in order to combat Hive Mind so don't change it and then complain that you lose. 4 Edicts are usually enough to keep Emrakul away and with 4 addional Thoughtseizes there is enough Discard to slow them down significantly. Extirpate is an awesome counter to their Intuitions and it gives information for Therapy. It sometimes randomly wins games by getting a discarded Hive Mind but that is of course not the main reason to play it.
Leyline of Sanctity is a hard problem though. Once you know they play it you have to bring the Nature's Claims too (which is one of the reasons why imo Nature's Claim is better than Krosan Grip).

[honz]

round1: mono white life gain
game 1: He attacks into my explorer, allowing me to set up hermit druid + nightmare. He has 3 soul wardens, and gains alot of life because of the token army im amassing, and his serra ascendants get me down to 4 before i find skinshifter to chump. At one point its 153 life to 4, but i wipe his board with deed, and attack with ten 6/6 wurms, and it doesn't really matter how much life he has.
game 2: goes to time because deed and pulse were in my bottom 20 in game 1 so it took forever. Ill take the win anyhow
(1-0)

round2: ledless dredge with bloodghast
game 1: I dont see deed or pulse before getting overrun
game 2: seize takes away his brokenness, and i swing with skinshifter. A zenith for loaming shaman seals the deal.
game 2: two explorers and two therapies plus deed. Zenith for ooze takes the game
(2-0)

round3: UW stoneforge + standstill
game1: A hymn hits mystic, so i slowplay my topdecked mindcensor, which works like a charm, and his 2nd mystic faceplants into it. Zenith grabs thrun, and i start swinging. Unfortunately he topdecks sword of feast and famine, which combined with jace overpowers me.
game2: 2 therapies and explorer in opener just destroys his hand and clears the way for birthing pod. Pod ramps my 2nd explorer into a thrun and i take the game easily.
game3: i keep a discard heavy hand, and we go into permission / discard war. I sneak my selkie through, and he gives me enough card advantage to steal the win.
(3-0)

round3: UBW faeries (spellshutter sprite, mystic, bitterblossom)
game1: Keep 1 lander with 2 zenith. First zenith gets missteps, 2nd one gets arbor but then eats an innocent blood. By the time i see a 2nd land, bitterblossom + jitte is swinging for 10 a turn.
game2: He didnt play anything white, or white lands in game 1, so i boarded wrong. His turn 2 stoneforge mystic for feast/famine just wrecks me before i can answer it.
(3-1)

round 4: Dream halls combo w/ show and tell
game1: mull to 5, with explorer + witness. I swing with explorer and draw lands for a couple turns, and he combos out turn 4 or 5.
game2: hand of therapy explorer, hymn, witness, and i think i have it in the bag. Therapy naming show and tell misses, but he rips one off the top of his deck, and goes turn 1: tomb + lotus petal + show and tell + dream halls + conflux.
(3-2)

Birthing pod is nice against slow decks, but i would board it out against anything faster. Its amazing under standstill, as it turns 1 fetchland into every creature in your deck.

Skinshifter seemed really good on paper, and i do think its a decent card against stompy decks, but i wouldn't play 3 in the future. For the record i don't like wall of blossoms either. 1 will become shriekmaw for sure.

Against hivemind, Leyline ignores you discard, and they have more counters than you have edicts and enchantment hate. Just in testing against this deck with various sideboards, i almost never won, which is why my sideboard wasn't aimed at beating it.

[Tao]

Good report.

Birthing Pod gets absurd if you change the deck a little bit. Totally missed the potential of the card, the people who mentioned it were right. This is a Birthing Pod deck.

What I like about it: Compare it to Recurring Nightmare. Nightmare only gets creatures back so it will usually downgrade them because you play your small creatures first. This is still good because of the "comes into play" and/or "leaves play" effects but Birthing Pod actually upgrades the creatures and still gets these effects. And it tutors. It also doesn't care for the colors of the creatures like Green Sun's Zenith. You can finally tutor Removal like Bone Shredder.
It gives so much value and makes you use your Mana every turn while at the same time being absolutely realiable. I went back up to 4 Explorer, 4 Therapy and had to cut Hymn because of the Mana.

I play a slight W splash for Academy Rector (was also mentioned already but I didn't listen), Stoneforge Mystic and Reveillark. Turning a Veteran Explorer into a Stoneforge fits perfectly. Academy Rector is pretty sick with Birthing Pod. It puts Nightmare/Deed and Reveillark/Hermit into play. And turning a Reveillark into a Grave Titan, yeah.
I also came up with a nice little Combo but atm it is not included because I don't want to waste the slots. If you sacrifice Academy Rector into Pod you could get a Corpse Connoisseur plus Nightmare and reanimate a creature of your choice (Iona, Elesh Norn).

I played another small Magic League tourney and easily went 3-0, beating Merfolk, Zoo and the Stoneforge/Standstill deck, only losing a single game to Mana screw after I kept a 6 card one lander on the draw against Merfolk. 8-0 atm, and though it is only Magic League the deck feels very impressive. . The deck has serious DTB potential now! Play it, it crushes 3/4 of the Meta and is not bad against the rest.


// Lands
2 [B] Swamp
4 [B] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [B] Plains
1 [B] Savannah
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [JGC] Deranged Hermit
1 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [NPH] Birthing Pod
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend

[hyperchord24]

Did you ever miss the Maelstrom Pulses or Garruk, Primal Hunter? Also, I don't like the fact that titan's tokens die to deed. Have you thought of running Sun Titan or even Baneslayer Angel in his place? I'm tempted to even try Rampaging Baloths because of its synergy with explorer and though those tokens die to deed as well, they are bigger. You probably spoke about the benefits of Grave Titan earlier in the thread and just forgotten.

[Tao]

The list is not final yet. There is A LOT of undiscovered terrain. I am not sure about anything, really. I just know that Pod does amazing things and that I dont really lose anymore^^

I cut Pulse because you can tutor the Bone Shredder now. I cut Garruk because I rather have a 5 drop that I can search for with Pod.
Sun Titan is also good but I think with Witness and Lark there are enough cards that get back stuff. Baloths are conditional and I don't like that about a 6-drop. Grave Titan is usually enough so a potential upgrade is not very important.

[honz]

If you are running academy rector, you should play one enchantment that just wins when it lands. In this case, i think that enchantment is Dovescape. With birthing pod + dovescape on the board, i can't see you ever losing. Your opponent cant cast spells, and through witness/rector/sun titan/reveillark, you gain huge card advantage. Your 2nd/3rd rector becomes deed if you need to sweep, or recurring nightmare if something important is in your grave. Sun titan recurs deed or recurring nightmare indefinitely, and dovescape protects your board.

Also dovescape with garruk on the board, would win most games as well. Even with nothing else on the board, you play enough utility creatures to dominate any control/combo deck.

With that said, i am not convinced birthing pod is all that good. It has been very slow in my experience, and puts poor results against combo, zoo, merfolk, and goblins. It also suffers against heavy control decks, which counter/destroy it, or destroy your creatures before they get to the higher cc tier. But this is just my limited experience.

If i were to run birthing pod heavy deck, i would try to fit these in: dovescape, garruk, fleshbag marauder, sun titan, recurring nightmare, 2 academy rector, aven mindcensor (in SB), and some discard for tempo (mesmeric fiend, thoughtseize, tidehollow sculler). Orzhov pontiff combos nicely with dovescape (as does goblin sharpshooter, alot of other cards) but deed is probably all you need, if that. Necrotic sliver is a really good card too, not to be overlooked.

[conboy31]

I went to FNM tonight with 0 Birthing Pods and was able to trade 1 M12 pack to 3 different people for 1 birthing pod each. I am surprised at how liquid M12 packs are. I ended up with about 70 of them from Gen Con.

Anyways, I feel like 2 birthing pods and either a Garuuk or Liliana Vess might be more correct than 3 pods. As I was playing games and slowly acquiring the pods I morphed the decklist to Tao's current list. Along the way, cutting the placeholder planeswalkers.

The other placeholder was 1 volraths stronghold instead of the 2nd phrexian tower. I made mental note of which would have been better and found they came out to be about equal. Having the sac ability was often relevant, however it came up that i needed 2 colorless mana and the legend rule would have been a problem. Also, putting a witness on top during the midgame feels good. It was also able to help out vs. Jace fatesealing me during a game vs. bant stoneforge.

[Tao]

Yeah, it is either 2 or 3 Pods. The current setup is extremely weak to Tombstalker, though. I have atm cut the Moat for a different approach to stop creature beats via Pod when Rector/Deed does not work or is too slow. One Phyrexian Metamorph for the one big guy plan (Prog, Emrakul, Tombstalker) and one Silent Arbiter for the swarm Plan. The long game plan is still Rector for Recurring Nightmare.

So my Birthing Pod plan atm looks like:

0>1: Fetchland > Dryad Arbor > Explorer
1>2: Explorer > Wall /SFM
2>3: Wall > Witness/Finks/Bone Shredder/ Kitchen Finks
3>4: 3-drop > Academy Rector / Silent Arbiter / Phyrexian Metamorph
4>5: Academy Rector > Deed/Nightmare+Reveillark / Nightmare+Hermit
5>6: Lark > Grave Titan

This of course can change pretty fast. The Academy Rector into Iona / Elesh Norn is still possible too.
This deck is challenging to build. Also there are probably tons of cards or combos that can be still found.

[Windux]

I think 4 Deeds and 4 Witness are too much.
We could get some slots from there.
2 Zenith and 3 Pots +3 Witness = 8 Possible Ways to get them (we want to have some good recursion anyway)
3 Pots on Rector + 2 Rector + 3 Deeds = 8 Possible Ways to get them (even if its slow)
Witness with Deed combined (and maybe Nightmare) = Tons of chances to get a Deed #2.

Metamorph is a great add to the deck. I think it's a must-play as you can copy Equipments as well.

Protean Hulk, Ranger of Eos could also seem play in such a deck. Ranger would give us more Veterans to sacrifice to Pot or to block.
Hulk is just a mean-mashine, but there aren't many moments where you want to sac a Grave Titan or Hermit for it (only with Nightmare available!).
Hermit Shanigans seems nice as well.

Sac Rector, get Pandemonium and then search hermit/Grave Titan also seems very nice. But I don't see a way to deal lethal with it (Lord of Extinction, huh? Needs 20 cards in all graves...we should test the average when we go for the plan)

[Tao]

Yeah, three Deeds and Witnesses are probably enough, that gives some slots and should still be enough to dominate Maverick, Zoo and Merfolk. Maybe with the 4th Deed in the Side?

I think I go for the Corpse Connoisseur with an Elesh Norn in the main. I know from my time with Survival that drawing conditional one-offs is the safest way to lose games so I disliked it. That's why I don't like the idea of Pandemonium and Lord as well.
But I didn't think about that you can use Connoisseurs ability to grab a Genesis which sounds pretty sweet. Especially against the plague that is Jace TMS in BUGstill I actually want to draw Connoisseur and because of Unearth they can't even do anything. So I will try that.

[Windux]

With Genesis, you will up your count of (by themselve) useless cards.
Derangend Hermit, Reveilark, Grave Titan and even Witness are cards that (multiplied in your opening hand) are really annoying. Now 2 more slots?

I think I cut Grave Titan and/or Deranged Hermit.

At the point, where you can upgrade your critters to one of those, you will have won anyway.
Recurring Revailark is enough with Witness. I think 2-3 Swords to Plowshares should be in the main 60.
I missed it so many times....

[f|i[p]]

I play this deck once in a while for fun,

I really do think it has potential, and playing against someone in mws with birthing pods was a pain.. However, I don't think we should build around birthing pods too much... as it is quite slow...

I agree that swords should be somewhere in here... having no targeted removal is quite a pain...

[Tao]

Good points. No fancy combos, only 2 Pods. And way less 1-offs. Danger of cute things, I fell for it. If we start to run Swords then Witness will become multiple times better, too, and you don't have to name it in the list of annoying cards anymore :p

How do your current lists look like?

[conboy31]

With the 3 or 4 witnesses main it does seem like a lot of value could be derived from at least one targeted removal like swords. Another card I have been thinking about is fleshbag marauder. It is a little clunky as a 3 mana sorcery edict, but it has extra value of being podded into/nightmared and allows for sacrificing vet or rector.

[conboy31]

I played some games vs. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40387
(Bgw knight + depths) and preboard we can't interact with it on a meaningful level. Post board swords and seizes allow for some mobility but the opponents 4 living wishes allows for a lot of redundancy and the 4 missteps still counter the sb options.

We switched decks back and forth and the gbw explorer won by flipping back revilark with reccuring nightmare while getting value with witness/walls. Otherwise the 20/20 wandered through the redzone. The deck is able to stave off the tarms/knights well. A resolved bob on t2 is a huge problem.

[Tao]

I won the next Legacy trial, too, only 32 players and 5 rounds but no bye this time, so 5-0 again. Same main deck list as last time because Hymns and Pulses are awesome and I haven't figured a Pod list with them yet.

- Hymn was awesome
- Maelstrom Pulse overperformed every single game. List needs more Pulses.
- Recurring Nightmare underperformed
- Garruk was good, Grave Titan was good, GSZ was good

Slightly altered side. I will write a short report later.

List here:

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/72290/legacy_t15.html#Explorer-Zenith%20Control163890

[Tao]

Report:

R1 McKeks with G/W Maverick:

The matchup is quite one-sided because of Deed and superior card power level. Another option to buy time for finding Deed is stripping his hand off Swords and locking him with Spike Weaver. He was not the best player, but even really good play wouldn't have changed anything.
In G2 he tried to Ruleslawyer but failed pretty badly. He starts to stall by playing defence with not attacking and tutoring Maze which is odd in a KO round when at 0-1. So I just keep on not losing and playing defensively and ultra-safe around everything from Geddon to Cataclysm without attacking, keeping lands and spells back. Then when time is over he goes crazy. It was 19-18 life for him (I have an active Ooze with 4 Mana up though) and I say end my turn so he somehow thinks he has won. It was kind of amusing how he tried to sneak a win that he not only didn't deserve but also couldn't get by the rules for multiple reasons.

1-0, 1-0


R2 Figazin with Stoneforge Mystic / Ancestral Vision / Jace TMS

Unlike my round 1 opponent he played good. He made one mistake in G1 with losing too much to a Deed but those things happen in long games and other than that he played fine.

The games were as close as it gets with another judge call in G3. This time I don't know if he tried to sneak something or if it was just a miscommunication:
I play a Therapy on him and in response he Wastes my Phyrexian Tower. So I take Mana in my Pool. We put both lands to the yard. Then he says "Ok". So I assume my Therapy resolves and I name "Force of Will". Then he tries to Force it and says he said "Ok" to the Mana ability that I take 1 instead of BB into the Pool from Tower and not "Ok" to the Therapy. It was ruled for me because the Stack was empty and you usually never Ok to Mana anyway. So I see his hand which was quite empty but he rips a Jace from the top of his deck so the game gets close but I manage to win on the back of Thrun from GSZ. Had he managed to find a FoW with his Jace I would have lost. This matchup very difficult and Jace/SFM in combination with Vision for more gas is extremely tough to outcontrol.

2-1, 2-0


R3: Mockingbird with Natural RUG + GSZ and Cliques

G1 is pretty hard domination because he didn't do anything up to his fourth turn when I already had Deed and 2 Walls in play. He then played a Scavenging Ooze which I had to Deed away because of the two Witnesses in my hand. I then played a Garruk on turn 5 because I drew my second and wanted to draw the Force but it just resolved. He played a Clique next turn and races me a bit with it and Bolts me in response to a Hymn but it was too little too late.

G2 is close then. He goes for a turn 2 Goyf while I hymned him but only hit excess lands. A turn 3 Clique that took my Pulse away puts a lot of pressure on me, especially after a GSZ on another Goyf. I can GSZ for Thrun and luckily he doesn't find the Instant to 4/5 his Goyfs so they have to stay home for one turn and that was just enough time to stabilize. I play a Garruk and he has to decide if he wants to use his attacks to go for Garruk or my life total. He goes for my throat but that means I get to draw 4 off Garruk thanks to Thrun. Nice Combo btw, -3ing without worrying about removal. I find the Deed and win then. Attacking Garruk wouldn't have been much better though. He wastes 6 damage and I still get 2 3/3 and 2 cards from my draw step out of the deal plus way more Mana while being ahead on cards anyway. Maybe one attack on Garruk and then attack me so I don't draw. I don't know.
Btw. I only know he played with Natural Order from checking the decklists, he never had one his four.

2-0, 3-0


R4: Gero 789 with Natural Order RUG

G1 He makes an extemely bad play in G1 that I just have no explanation for. His board is Sylvan Library and Goyf and he plays a Clique, looks at my hand and lets me keep my Deed. So I play Deed, wipe his board next turn and win. the heck was that...

G2 he draws 4 cards for 16 life with Library and 2 cards with Edric Spymaster during the first turns. I have triple Hymn that takes 6 spells in total so it is at least a bit fair. I deed him twice, then he finds Order but I had an Edict all game long that I couldn't use because he always had a Hierarch. I have to consider switching Edict to Damnation as long as RUG is big in the Meta, despite Edict being better against Reanimator and Hive Mind. An earlier Prog could have been lethal and the Spike Weaver plan is daring against a deck with red removal.

<Gero789> nice luck
<Fanboy1> thx
<Gero789> gg
<Fanboy1> gg
<Gero789> but
<Gero789> deck is orrible
<Gero789> no blue in legacy is bad

2-0, 4-0


R5: Delacroix with Team America
Opponent has no mana. He edicts me twice, forces once then still has no land so he loses to Hermit, but it could have been anything. Bad luck for him.
And a third judge call, oh my, the drama. He Edicts my Dryad Arbor at the end of his second turn off Bayou and Wasteland. Then in his mainphase he wants to play a Brainstorm off his Bayou, I tell him that is impossible and he ends the turn without a land drop. This looked very fishy to me. I mean when you only have one color producing land how can you not know the colors of it? So I go to judges and let them give him a warning and after that he of goes crazy, threatens to leave the game and behaves like I am an asshole. I think if he honestly made a mistake he would have just apologized because it obviously DID look fishy. So I think he just tried to cheat.

G2 I sided wrong because I thought he was playing some Loam deck from what I saw in G1. Should have known better. But he mulls to 5 on the play so it doesn't matter and I even get to tilt him a bit more with the Extirpates so that is good.

2-0, 5-0

[1maarten1]

Awesome deck! Has bitterblossom ever been an option? Its a great black control card, but Im unsure how it is with deed.

Btw, why isnt this in the Established section?

[trivial_matters]

Yeah, this belongs in Established.

@Tao: You should update the list in the first post to match the one you're currently playing. Otherwise well done.

[conboy31]

I feel like blossom would get swept under the rug far too often with deeds and the deck loves to attrition out games so the life lose would be notable. I would not test it, but if it makes sense to you, i'd say give it a shot!

I can't wait for innistrad to be fully spoiled. I have a great feeling about a GB or B planeswalker for this deck.

[Tao]

Bitterblossom: This is not a Blossom deck. The deck is rarely aggressive and conserving the life total is quite important.

For the Established section: The deck itself is certainly good enough, but there is no widely agreed list yet. Atm I play the list mentioned above with 2 extra Pulses so I guess we could take that for the OP and I could write a bit about strategy and boarding. The Birthing Pod territory isn't explored yet but this can be done in Established as well.

Birthing Pod: I tested with the Standard UGW Birthing Pod deck from Ruel and it is very good. Not to transition to Legacy the way it is but awesome to play. Endless tricks.
If you play the Sun Titan version then Phantasmal Image is a card to look at. Returning Image with Titan cloning Titan is great. Also an Emrakul/Prog/Tombstalker solution and copying KotR or Witness isn't the worst.

New Liliana: The new Liliana is quite busted. She will be best in either Pox or Loam Control or BG Vengevine. In fact she might very well be good enough to make real decks out of them. Unfortunately I can't imagine that she has a place in this. She is a solution to Prog. and Emrakul and good against Combo but the +1 just flat out sucks for this in every other matchup.

[Tao]

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-attacking-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

[Philipp2293]

Nice.
I'm not so sure about bringing additional Gift engines from the SB, since you will def. be facing GY hate.

[Freggle]

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-attacking-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

Congtratz man. Keep up the good work!

[conboy31]

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-attacking-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

I was talking with Caleb inbetween vintage side events about what he was going to play, he said blue zoo or hivemind. He then joked about a vet explorer deck, and I was like hey... I have all the cards for the deck, and brought 8 explorers with me. He showed me is list and explained what he was trying to accomplish.
When he did not show up the following morning I suspected alcohol was involved (if anyone sees him, ask him about the mountain dew bottle story from the previous night).

Also, the new garruk is intruiging for this deck: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123426&d=1314936567

[waSP]

I just got back from a 4-round swiss tournament running a Gbwu build. I think you can get away with the risk of fun things with this deck.

Round 1 against UBG Dreadnought
Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are generally sufficient to deal with Dreadnoughts. These weren't very close ever.

Round 2 against UW Mystic
Sat under a standstill forever waiting for good colored lands and then won with some Cabal Therapies. Won game 2 with a Pridemage knocking out a Batterskull and then Jace + beats.

Round 3 against Merfolk
He didn't get nutty 5 creature hands so I attritioned him out slowly. This is probably an unfavorable matchup unless you're running a lot of the cheaper removal.

Round 4 against GBwr Loam
Significant advantage here. You can basically just answer threats as they're played and go for the long game. Won game 1 with a turn 3 Future Sight which netted me 0 cards for 4 turns after he cast Devastating Dreams (for 5). It still won the game.

My list was approximately
19x fetches, basics, and duals
1x Maze of Ith
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Future Sight
1x Karn, Liberated
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Eternal Witness
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sun Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wall of Blossoms

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Gifts Ungiven
2x Sensei's Divning Top
1x Regrowth

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Innocent Blood

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Life from the Loam
2x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter

I find I bring in the 4 Thoughtseizes against everything. The LftL engine should probably be some anti-combo cards although I do enjoy the extra Wastelands.

Some more anecdata for you all.

[Tao]

First of all congratulations.

Weeeee more ideas ... like there were problems filling the 60 :D So Lotus Cobra and Future Sight.
Lotus Cobra seems good. And Future Sight is a great thing to Fetch with Rector against Control when you need something to win. I don't know about splashing White just for just those three cards though. Titan is really good while 1 Qasali and 1 KotR are nothing that justifies and Extra color. But with 1 Future Sight, 1 Rec. Nightmare and 3 Deed in the deck isn't Rector an obvious inclusion?

Just for the record I am 22-1 at Magic League now. That includes wins against the likes of an Elf player who died to his own pact and a Solidarity player who played Accumulated Knowledge and tried to Combo and Reset in his own EoT step after I Extirpated something during that EoT. But it also included a lot of Goyfs and Merfolk and Stoneforge Mystics and 22-1 isn't too shabby even with a wins that could have been losses. Most of the games were played with straight GB though recently I switched back to experimenting with Gifts.

[dakkonblackblade08]

Hi Tao,

I have been following this thread for quite some time and got interested in building this kind of deck. What are your thoughts on Caleb's build in ChannelFireball? I kinda got lost in translation as to how to play that build. Your version is straightforward and I like it however, I am also interested in getting to know the mechanics of Caleb's build. Gifts has been missing in action for quite sometime and I would love to bring it in our meta (btw, I'm from the Philippines). As the deck's proponent, do you have any plans in dabbling with Caleb's build? If so, what would be the approach in playing that deck? Your input will surely clear things on my mind as to which version should I play.

Haben Sie vielen Dank! [did I type that right :-)]

[Psydonome]

I´m glad that i found this Thread after i saw the first Decklist on TC-Decks from "fanboy1". After some testing and two tournaments, my current list:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize

3 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
2 Chainer´s Edict
1 Consuming Vapors
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Summoning Trap


It worked well in the first three Rounds of the last Tournament, but then my luck was gone against NO Rug, TES, Punishing StoneBlade and Reanimator. Now i´m thinking about the third color. Don´t know why but i don´t like blue in this Deck. Perhaps something like that:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Sun Titan
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
2 Retribution of the Meek
1 Consuming Vapors
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Orim´s Chant
3 Summoning Trap

So, what do you think? Sideboard decisions like Summoning Trap or Sadistic Sacrament are first trys and discussably.
Some explanation: I don´t like Academy Rector - too often there is no Therapy or Tower and he got a StP. In my opinion it is almost the same like Birthing Pod - too much playing around something what looks great, but is it realy necessary? Normaly this Deck is able to beat most Aggro Decks with many removal + recursion and lifegain. In the G/B Builds is a bundle of Discard for Control and Combo but in my Testgames it was not enough to Win above average many games aggainst Punishing Fire, Progenitus, Hivemind and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[novatinhu]

Your list is very similar to mine:


// Lands
4 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Karn Liberated
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Profane Command
1 Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Uktabi Orangutan
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

[dakkonblackblade08]

Guys have you checked Caleb Durward's build in ChannelFireball? He tweaked Tao's decklist with a splash of blue (Gifts Ungiven) and did not rely on GSZ this time. Its quite good but I'm a bit lost in translation in terms of playing that (Caleb's) deck. I know its a control deck but I'm a bit clueless regarding which card should you fetch via Gifts against these decks --> NO Rug, Folks, Bant and Maverick

I'm a bit torn between Caleb's and Tao's built. Tao's is straightforward Rock Control-esque and Caleb's has a toolbox approach. I want to know the thoughts of the followers of this thread. Im planning to surprise a lot of people in our upcoming tourney this October/ November (depending on the speed of the deck's creation)

[f|i[p]]

I think one difference between the lists is Gifts vs Zenith. GIfts is more powerful than zenith in testing, however, it forces you to run different spells, that produce the same effect. It also makes you rely more on the grave (as for Calebs list). Gifts also pushes you to run the 4th color or 3rd(if you do not wish to run white), which seems to be ok for now, as I haven't run into an opening basic island yet...

Taos list is the basic skeleton of the entire deck. Everyone is entitled to tweak it to their playstyle and preference..but the concept remains.

One thing Ive noticed is that, whenever I zenith, I always look for a really good Green finisher, that can't be easily killed. As for now I can't seem to find any. Sun titan is white, grave titan is black.

I still run the 3 color build, as I think not running spot removal is a big mistake..where a simple dark confidant can beat you via card advantage. So for me its gbw for now... Gifts is incredibly strong, but further testing is needed..

@dakkonblackblade08
4 No rug in the top 8 of the last tournament in Manila is quite something, and you have to prepare for it... I suggest you test the basic deck first which is Taos list, and see the concepts of how it really works.. Don't make the mistake of testing it in the tournament itself, as there are tons of interactions and plays you might not want to do depending on your opponent. Then tweak it from there...as for me..

More testing is key to improving the deck..

[Waikiki]

Im pretty interested in the deck. If any of the german friends or other people are interested in going to GP Amsterdam let me know and maybe we could get some sort of playtest group going with this deck.

[Tao]

Guys have you checked Caleb Durward's build in ChannelFireball? He tweaked Tao's decklist with a splash of blue (Gifts Ungiven) and did not rely on GSZ this time. Its quite good but I'm a bit lost in translation in terms of playing that (Caleb's) deck. I know its a control deck but I'm a bit clueless regarding which card should you fetch via Gifts against these decks --> NO Rug, Folks, Bant and Maverick


Flip explained the struggle to find the right build quite well and Caleb mentions it in the article too. Aside from not being sure if Gifts belongs in the deck or not: The general Gifts plan is to set up an engine of Recurring Nightmare with Witness, Finks and Explorer to ramp Mana and/or generate card advantage. Then win with Titan on Deed/Witness or with the Yosei / Rec Nightmare lock. If you already have Mana just tutor whatever you need plus Witness/Regrowth and a free wish. Also Gifts for Therapy is synergetic because you get at least one half of it anyway.
However opponents often do something so you usually have to cast the first Gifts to survive. So if that happens:

Vs. RUG:
make sure to not die against Progenitus. Their beatdown is no big problem with Calebs list. Deeds and Rector and Swords should kill his threats. His solution to Prog is Innocent Blood but I am very sure his list should have Phantasmal Image in that spot because it doesn't get rendered useless by Clique / Fetchland for Arbor. Image has sick synergy with Titan and copying Finks or Witness or their KotR is cool too. If you are about to die to quick beatdown of course go for whatever suits the situation and your Mana best of PtE, Swords, Regrowth, Deed, Finks, Witness.

Vs. Folks:
If you dont die next turn go for Witness, Regrowth, Deed and something else that seems useful (Therpay, Swords) and force the sweeper through. If you die next turn and don't have time for Deed go for something like Swords, Path, O Ring and Regrowth.

Bant:
So many different lists. Try to analyze the game state and figure out what you need. Do they kill you? Grab Removal. Do they go for a attrition war? Grab Witness, Regrowth, Nightmare and Sun Titan.

Maverick:
If they Mindcensor in reponse you have no hard choice. If they don't, set it up that you have 5-6 Mana and Deed them for two or three. If Elspeth or Parallax Wave meddles with your plans, hope you find a solution.

[muscleb]

;582804']
One thing Ive noticed is that, whenever I zenith, I always look for a really good Green finisher, that can't be easily killed. As for now I can't seem to find any. Sun titan is white, grave titan is black.


What about dungrove elder. Hard to kill, cheap cost and it should be rather big with all the mana ramp this deck does. Also comes back with the help of Sun Titan.

[hyperchord24]

There's also gigapede, thrun, the last troll and grave shell scarab

[jedi_gof]

Hi Tao,

Love the deck! Absolutely a ton of fun. Could you please post your most recent pod list?

[Philipp2293]

Deck got featured again on CFB. Caleb D = Fanboy1 fanboy.

[Sigar]

I just read this in another thread and thought it was pretty cool:

Birthing Pod + Tombstalker = Iona :)

[novatinhu]

Im playing with:

1x Chord of Calling (to take Grave Titan)
and
1x Profane Command

And I like both a lot, what do you think?

Cya

[Koby]

I have gotten a chance to playtest with the new Liliana, and I think that she is powerful enough for this deck. This would allow the deck to be brought closer to :g::b: without all the side thrills.

[264505]

I was playing with the GB list Caleb Durward featured on MWS a bit today. I really like the way it plays. Wall of Blossoms seems like it is only there as a form of card advantage. I haven't had a situation where it was relevant as a body yet. Cutting it to 2 in favor of either more discard or more removal might be better. Maelstrom Pulse has been really strong in the few games I've played with it. I think Garruk Relentless might also warrant a spot in the main as well. It can kill a Vereten Explorer or some other 1 power dork your opponent has (Dryad Arbor, Grim Lavamancer, Spellstutter Sprite, ect) in order to flip it and the flip side overrun ability has a lot of synergy with the deck. It can also allow you to power through board stalls with zombie or squirrel tokens via Titan or Hermit.

[dakkonblackblade08]

Thank you Tao aka Fanboy1 for the tips..I guess I'll stick with the Fanboy1 built..it is more straightforward and it's like Control-Rock which is cool :-D..BTW here's Kepa Arrieta's deck..with white splash

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/19505

@ALL: your thoughts?

[dakkonblackblade08]

Hi Tao,

Love the deck! Absolutely a ton of fun. Could you please post your most recent pod list?

I agree Tao! Updates! We are looking forward to its improvement :-D

[Tao]

Heh, awesome. I am on CFB again. With two decks. And I am a Caleb fan too :) I really like how he approaches decks.

Updates:
I love the GB version but it is weak against 2 important cards: Progenitus and Jace TMS.
Progenitus is a very big (no pun intended) problem because the RUG deck will be heavily played. They will usually have one of their 4 Orders and Discard isn't reliable because of their 4 Brainstorms to find a new Order and hide it on top of the library. Spike Weaver from GSZ can get the job done, especially with Nightmare help, but it is risky against Bolts and Mancers.
Jace is a problem when combined with other CA engines, especially Ancestral Vision. If they run SFM and Mishras or similar cards for more value, they become hard to outcontrol. Thrun does a very good against them but sometimes he is just not enough.
On the other hand straight GB has the best Zoo, Merfolk and Maverick matchups of these decks. Stable Mana is important and Hymn severely punishes decks that don't draw cards. Against Merfolk not playing blue is a big advantage too. Now there are four versions that I think of:

1: GB with a dedicated SB to solve these problems:
My fanboy1 ML decks tried to do that. 1 Thrun MD and 2 in SB plus addional Discard from the Sideboard for the control match and Edicts or Damnation for the Prog/Reanimator matchup.

2: Gbu(w) with Gifts Ungiven:
It kills Progenitus by tutoring for Phantasmal Image and is an awesome spell vs Jace control. It is synergetic in general because it enables Recurring Nightmare and acts as a tutor with Witness and Regrowth. The problem is that it requires an additional color that grants Islandwalk for Merfolk and it makes you run many 1-offs that dilute the deck. Gifts versions are usually much weaker against yard hate.

3: GBw Birthing Pod:
It fixes Progenitus via. Metamorph and is awesome vs. Jace control. Very synergetic and powerful too because every creature has EtB or LtB triggers and you get to tutor chosen solutions and threats uncounterable right on the battlefield. The problem is that it forces to play creatures of a certain CMC that and that you also start to run many diluting 1-offs.

4: GBu Natural Order:
Atm imo the way to go. It deals with Prog. by the legend rule. Most Jace TMS control lists can't beat it because their removal is targeted. And keeping counters in hand through Therapy/Witness/GSZ is tough. So from the problem solving aspect this is actually the best. You also only have to run one 1-off to make it work. The deck runs a lot of green guys that don't mind being sacced anyway so there is also some synergy. And it wins games that you just shouldn't win. One problem is that it requires Islands for Brainstorm because the games tend to quite long. So odds for drawing Progenitus would become too high and having to Therapy yourself is a good emergency option but not an acceptable part of your strategy. I don't really like Order in this type of deck but if the format calls for a hammer then give it the hammer.

[CalebD]

Unfortunately, our car broke down on the way to atlanta, so we didn't make it to the 5k, but I would've played Toa's GB version. -3 Walls, -2 Garruk, -1 Wickerbough Elder, -2 Eternal Witness, +1 Kitchen Finks, +2 Top, +2 Bob, +1 Grave Titan, +1 Therapy, +1 Veteran.

Sb

4 Leyline
4 Helm of Obedience
2 Chains of Mephistophles
2 Perish
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Stingerfling Spider (Emrakul, Tombstalker, maybe Iona.)
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Since we didn't get there, we had time to jam games, and the deck was performing super good against some of the best Legacy players I know, all with different archetypes. Sigh. >:(

It might've just been the games, but Bob, Grave Titan, and top were all hot. I might cut the last wall or a Hymn for a third bob, and maybe find room in the manabase for a second tower.

Edit: Also, someone mentioned the idea of using Spellskite to protect Spike Weaver, but there really isn't the room. Still, I liked the technology, and it's applicable to stuff like Sower.

[votan]

Really like this deck. I love rock and I'm going to play it at a GPT this Saturday.
Questions:
What does this deck do to Progenitus (the version without NO)? Is Spike Feeder Enough?
Helm of Obidience? What's that card good against?
This might sound like a stupid question (probably does :p), but anyway, If I don't ask, I'll never know, so.... that's that :)

[Maveric78f]

Helm is combo with Leyline. It decks the opponent since not a single card is going to hit the yard.

[Alsan]

One of my mates is playing this deck and has very good results with it, and after redaing the entire thread, I've asked to my friend Pablo, who is the owner of TcDecks to create a new archetype: Nic Fit (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Nic%20Fit&format=Legacy)

I hope you enjoy this :D

[jobdevries]

Hey,

I thought I'd share my decklist with you, because it works really well for me at the moment.
I more or less sticked to one of the earliest versions made by Tao, and tweaked it a bit.

Creatures (15):
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Sun Titan
1x Protean Hulk
1x Spike Weaver
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wall of Blossoms

Spells(18):
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Diabolic Intent
3x Duress

Artifacts and Enchantments (4):
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Planeswalkers (1):
1x Karn Liberated

Lands (22):
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Bayou
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Orim's Chant
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Extirpate
2x Innocent Blood

Biggest change comparing to previous versions is the Protean Hulk. I felt like this deck needed a big creature easily tutored by Green Sun's Zenith. The advantage of Protean Hulk versus any other big green creature, is that you can sacrifice the Protean Hulk in response to removal (by using Phyrexian Tower, e.g.), getting an eternal witness (and return Hulk to your hand), sun titan or whatever needed at that point. When both players are being in topdeck mode (something I often come across with this deck), meant Green Sun's Zenith is a win.

Any thoughts?

[kiblast]

Hey, I played the following list today (19 players, splitting the finals because we were both in a hurry to end the tournament...)

Creatures (14):
3x Veteran Explorer
3x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
2x Sun Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze


Spells(17):
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize
2x Maelstrom Pulse

Non creature permanents(7):
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Karn Liberated

Lands (21):
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Swamp
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Dryad Arbor

// Sideboard
2x Yixlid Jailer
2x Extirpate
3x Choke
1x Loaming Shaman
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Damnation
1x Sadistic Sacrament

R1 I play vs Painters and loose 1-2 due to a topdeck.
R2 I play vs Merfolk and win 2-0
R3 I play vs Sneak Show and win 2-0
R4 I play vs NoBant and win 2-0
R5 I play vs Uwr Stoneforge Landstill and he concedes, we play it and it's 1-1

Top4.

Semi vs Maverick I win 2-1
Finals vs Merfolk we split- I win 4 Foil promo JSS City of Brass signed in gold by Tedin...cool set indeed.

I feel this deck is really good, but you actually need to stick a Confidant or a Top in the early game. Confidant is better because there's always the Ooze to gain some life; you need to see at least one of them (either Top or Bob) because when you end the turn1-5 discard, disruption and mana ramp, you'll find yourself in topdeck mode on an empty board and you need to cast a bomb. I saw that sometimes I controlled the game but lacking a finisher, I gave opponent time to rebuild his board position. This always ended in long and annoying games.
Karn is cool and when hits the table is pretty damn good, but e costs freaking seven mana, at this point I'd rather try a couple Steel Hellkite. They need to attack but are far more effective, they wipe the board and come down a turn earlier at least.

Edit: I just thought about Elspeth...she's a pretty good win con at low cc. She wins the planeswalker war when your Explorer is giving your opponent mana for a fast Jace (always try to avoid this but sometimes happens)...she puts your opp. on a clock even with a Confidant. Worth testing imho.

[Tao]

Had a 48 man trial today. Nic Fit went after Swiss 1st (me 5-0-1, UGB with Order), 2nd (friend 5-1, with Birthing Pod GBw, we built our decks together yesterday) and 3rd (4-1-1 nice guy we know, with pure GB). So no help on which version is best. Unfortunately none of us got the byes. My friend and me both lost in Quarters which was quite disappointing and the other guy lost in Semis so no Byes unfortunately.

[conboy31]

I guess to add some more data to the thread that doesn't solve what version is the best... I 3-0d, 1st place, a mini local legacy tournament with GBw reccuring/pod version this morning. The version with 2 rectors, moat, stoneforge, and sliver.

[Rabrab]

Had a 48 man trial today. Nic Fit went after Swiss 1st (me 5-0-1, UGB with Order), 2nd (friend 5-1, with Birthing Pod GBw, we built our decks together yesterday) and 3rd (4-1-1 nice guy we know, with pure GB). So no help on which version is best. Unfortunately none of us got the byes. My friend and me both lost in Quarters which was quite disappointing and the other guy lost in Semis so no Byes unfortunately.


Additionally you can say 3/48 player are Nic Fit and all are top8:)
(after swiss 1.,2. and 3. place:)


// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [R] Bayou
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [R] Savannah
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [DDE] Bone Shredder
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [NPH] Birthing Pod
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [M12] Sundial of the Infinite
SB: 1 [M11] Duress

There is my list and i would play it again.

I've gone 5-2 in matches and 11-5 in games (2 games i was manascrew, 1 game my UW opponent topdecks stoneforge, jace and elsepth after some therapies and 1 game vs NO RUG because he had turn 4 NO + removal and fow for my birthingchain and 1 game i had a bad draw)

[Philipp2293]

Congratz to all you guys! Can't wait to see some more decklist. I think that it's time for this archetype to be moved to established, but maybe the many directions this deck can take slow this down.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Tao and the others, well done, any chances to take a look at your list, or maybe just the mana base.

I'm planning to run it next Sunday at a GPT and tried to brainstorm an UBG list already. I'll post mine later one probably, loving the inclusion of NO Prog from testing in nearly all green based decks...

[BlackStarDeceiver]

double, please delete.

[1maarten1]

Unfortunately, our car broke down on the way to atlanta, so we didn't make it to the 5k, but I would've played Toa's GB version. -3 Walls, -2 Garruk, -1 Wickerbough Elder, -2 Eternal Witness, +1 Kitchen Finks, +2 Top, +2 Bob, +1 Grave Titan, +1 Therapy, +1 Veteran.

Sb

4 Leyline
4 Helm of Obedience
2 Chains of Mephistophles
2 Perish
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Stingerfling Spider (Emrakul, Tombstalker, maybe Iona.)
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Since we didn't get there, we had time to jam games, and the deck was performing super good against some of the best Legacy players I know, all with different archetypes. Sigh. >:(

It might've just been the games, but Bob, Grave Titan, and top were all hot. I might cut the last wall or a Hymn for a third bob, and maybe find room in the manabase for a second tower.

Edit: Also, someone mentioned the idea of using Spellskite to protect Spike Weaver, but there really isn't the room. Still, I liked the technology, and it's applicable to stuff like Sower.

I like the addition of bob and top, but I don't really understand in what MU you want to board in the Leyline Helm combo, maybe you could tell us about those sideboard choices?

[berry]

Hola, Sourcers.

Tao: Could I bother you with all 3 decklists? We're a crew brewing for amsterdam and some players are brewing this list, and are interested in these.

Thanks in advance!

[CalebD]

I like the addition of bob and top, but I don't really understand in what MU you want to board in the Leyline Helm combo, maybe you could tell us about those sideboard choices?

Post board they needle Pernicious Deed, and then you kill them. Combo is pretty good at taking control decks by surprise. Not sure if it's worth all those slots, but so far I like it.

You also have a faster path to victory against the combo decks that involves some incidental disruption. Not bad.

Been playing a miser's Skeletal Scrying lately. Card has been pretty insane.

[264505]

Additionally you can say 3/48 player are Nic Fit and all are top8:)
(after swiss 1.,2. and 3. place:)


// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [R] Bayou
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [R] Savannah
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [DDE] Bone Shredder
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [NPH] Birthing Pod
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [M12] Sundial of the Infinite
SB: 1 [M11] Duress

There is my list and i would play it again.

I've gone 5-2 in matches and 11-5 in games (2 games i was manascrew, 1 game my UW opponent topdecks stoneforge, jace and elsepth after some therapies and 1 game vs NO RUG because he had turn 4 NO + removal and fow for my birthingchain and 1 game i had a bad draw)

I'm not a huge fan of running Reveillark with no 6 to pod into. Grave Titan seems like the perfect card for inclusion in this list.

[Tao]

I felt it was kind of moot to post thoughts before the bannings. So MM got the axe. I don't like the banning but it isn't terrible either and was quite obvious. I really hoped Brainstorm would have gotten banned too though, and with Ponder/Preordain getting banned in modern and Brainstorm/Ponder already banned in Vintage I can't imagine WotC not knowing how ridiculous the card is. A Brainstorm ban would have helped this deck tremendously by weakening blue Combo, NO decks and Jace control. The MM ban is double-edged for Nic Fit. It directly helps because it takes away a card we don't play that is solid against us. Indirectly we have to wait for the format impact. Combo will get even stronger which is bad but with losing a free counter spell Control decks probably can't pack such an ridiculous amount of card draw anymore. The "4 Brainstorm, 4 Vision, 4 Jace" package is a joke to be honest so they will hopefully have to reduce that. No Brainstorm would have also made Therapies insane but the MM ban at least improves Therapies a bit and makes Explorers much safer.

For the Birthing Pod version I would trust rabrab. He is a very good player (made German National Top 8 twice in a row now and plays in German team this year at Worlds). I argued for Grave Titan too but he is of the opinion that Hermit is enough as a win condition because of the synergy between Titan and Metamorph/Nightmare and that a Titan is just not needed and could make the draws clunkier. He sees Pod as a strict card advantage / solution engine and that seems like the right thing to do.

The UGB Order is mostly a Metagame deck that relies on Vision decks not being able to handle Progenitus and not being able to counter NO because of Therapies. I don't have the exact version of the Trial anymore because I had to change cards due to last second card hunting but atm and with Misstep banned I would play it like below. An alternative approach that I will test is to keep Jace but use Grave Titans as a finisher and use Damnations instead of Maws in the Side to deal with Progenitus.

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [ZEN] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Forest
2 [B] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

// Spells
3 [PT] Natural Order
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
SB: 2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [US] Duress

[berry]

Huge thanks for the post.

Any love for the new 1B + sac creature -> draw 2?

[fallenphoenix]

That's just Skulltap as an instant, I don't think that's what you really want.

@Tao: Something else that's got to be considered is storm combo, which has been pretty sub-par since the printing of MMS and might now make a resurgence. Past in Flames also looks pretty sweet.
You might need something in the MD against those decks.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Maybe more Hymns or 3sphere out of the board?

[f|i[p]]

Ive been hoping for brainstorm to be banned for the longest time... there is so much it can do just for a one mana instant.. even make bad hands playable...but forget about it.

Mental misstep made the meta slower . Now that its gone.. out comes fast decks again....

If we do develop this further I guess the biggest concern we have is combo decks returning... Fast aggro can be dealt with easily...

Thoughts on the deck:

Before mental misstep was banned one of the main problems I was having is the significance of 2cc drops...I think having a good 2cc drop will help the curve fit in much better as a whole deck for the bgw version.

I tried adding blue in and just added brainstorms and it was really helpful in all senses.. but I never wanted to leave the deck without spot removal hence I tried a bguw version, somewhere like Calebs list.. but with brainstorms instead of Gifts as well as Nat order.... its working pretty well but needs more testing..

I liked birthing pod when I played against it, but one thing is annoying is that you have to build your creatures around it...Not that its bad, but you wont be able to get 3cc creatures when you sac a 5cc creature.. which really sucks...It can only search for creatures with the same cc and or +1cc... So I won't even bother to build the deck around birthing pods..

I also tested protean hulk as suggested by jobdevries ,and it was really good so far.. Yes sometimes I get stuck with a zenith not knowing what to zenith for as a good finisher with a lot of mana... Hulk is ok since you can always sac him in response to removal vial Tower.... netting you more creatures like witness or other stuff...

I have also looked around going combo with Hulk as an alternate win con istead of Nat order...but I guess thats too much and might end up with the deck trying to do so many things...

So what interests me now is the simple bgw or the bgwu builds..I can never deny the power of sun titan in this deck or even natural order...

I will probably need to have a good sideboard plan vs combo... which actually the only concern I have regarding the deck.

[jobdevries]

Awesome, flip. Mind showing your current decklist with hulk?
I'm still having some problems vs cawblade, batterskull is relatively resistent to pernicious deed and qasali pridemage, since they just retrieve it to hand. Any hints on how to deal with it?

[f|i[p]]

@jobdevries

Ill post a deck list when I find the right list thats quite consistent.. Im still having trouble with consistency.. as the mana curve keeps on becoming an issue from time to time...

Also when people don't actually kill explorer... it becomes a problem....flying creatures are quite annoying for this deck so far... but I will still try and hopefully figure out the right combination of stuff.. and I think Tao posted a list somewhere in here... bgu... and since he has the most experience with the deck its best to consult him...

[eq.firemind]

;589440']Also when people don't actually kill explorer... it becomes a problem....flying creatures are quite annoying for this deck so far... but I will still try and hopefully figure out the right combination of stuff.. and I think Tao posted a list somewhere in here... bgu... and since he has the most experience with the deck its best to consult him...
Play some Innocent Blood in maindeck. I heard people are playing green men again, so another turn 1 answer to Lackey is nothing but good.

[jobdevries]

Alright, I'll be looking forward to it. It's fun to see the huge differences between the decks posted here, so.
I mostly don't really have issues with getting rid of veteran. I play phyrexian towers, cabal therapies, diabolic intents, etc. and they work for me.

@firemind, innocent blood MB.. I'll try that!

Also I added a Garruk, Primal hunter, and he feels right in this deck. His ultimate is just.. appropriate in this deck.

I actually took out a land for Garruk (playing 21 lands now), since I never had problems with getting mana (veteran explorer).

Thanks for your sharings!

[berry]

Two things!

1. Thoughts on post-misstep, go crazy with Innocent Bloods?

2. Anyone got a very standard GB-list I can use for reference?

[Equinozio]

I think that target removal is far more appropiate for the deck than using inocent blood. At first time it feels that is the card that must be there but then you realize that there are times that you don't have anything to sacrifice for and continue making pressure.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

So what do you guys do against Hivemind? ;) Lost to it yesterday, without being able to do anything. Will it be a contender post rotation?

[conboy31]

What colors are you running, and what was in your board? Hive mind can be a very tough matchup. Did they have chalices, leyline of sanctity, or what post board? One of the main issues is presenting a relevant clock.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

'I played the BUG Order version (- 2 Jace - 2 Seize + 4 Hymn) with 3 Duress 3 Negate and 2 Echoing Truth boarded for 3 NO 1 Prog 3 Deed and 1 Wall of Blossom.

Game 1 was iffy because i set him on Stoneblade with Flooded Strand, go. I hit a FoW with the Therapy but he topdecked Intuition for the win. Game 2 i locked him pretty hard with T1 Therapy, T2 Explorer FB Therapy into Hymn t3 Land Witnedd pick up Hymn and played Hymn into T4 Jace bouncing Witness for Hymn, taking the last cards away then fatesealing him out...

Well G3 he dropped T2 protected SNT (FoW'ed my T1 discard) and dropped Emrakul. No luck for me, had only 1 Zenith in hand at the time together with my Jace, so i couldn't drop double Enforcer to drop Jace after his attack which set me on 2. Man, that would have been kinda awesome :D

What are your thoughts on 3 Jace and 3 Liliana main?

[conboy31]

I have not played the blue version vs. hive mind. Are you sure boarding out nopro is correct? It gives you an additional line of play vs. show and tell by having progenitus and 6 other permanents (though that is a corner case). Additionally, it is the fastest way the deck can win.
How did you anticipate your echoing truths working out?
I was able to trade for 4 liliana's this weekend and will be trying them out shortly.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The line of thought behind the NO Plan is that you can't win if you dont disrupt them hard, so i rather prefer going for Jace to Fateseal early or to go for a stream of Hymns via Witness. When plaing with Negate (which was pretty awesome) you don't really want to tap out for NO. Maybe Pulse can go out as well, keeping NO in, while boarding in Terastodon as well. E.Truth was in for fighting the Leyline which he always drew Turn 2 ;) but it's not that bad against other decks as well. Bouncing Witness, opposing Jaces, Germ token or anything else on the opposing side to follow up with a therapy is brutal.

[Equinozio]

How do you beat a resolved batterskull? I found really trouble to find a way to deal with.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Pulse or Deed + Therapy?

[conboy31]

There are so many versions of this deck it is important so at least say your colors when asking how to beat batterskull. For the BGw version I have been using you can therapy/flash it back after they tutor for it with stoneforge. When we have enough mana deeds means they always have to play magic with 3 mana up to return it. Moat which can just ignore it, a batterskull, and a harmonic sliver.

[Equinozio]

Yes, sorry I didn't say what version I'm playing.

I'm in a WBG pod. My current list is:

/ Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [A] Bayou
2 [A] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [COM] Veteran Explorer
3 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
3 [COM] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [M12] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [NPH] Birthing Pod
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
/ Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 mindslicer
SB: 1 wickerboug elder
SB: 2 [ISD] Liliana of the veil
SB: 2 [PT] Virtue's Ruin

A few things.

With misstep gone I think that STP is better than black removal with 2 casting cost. We are going to see more lackey's and stoping them from the begining is the right play. For that reason I made a split 2/2 bayou / savannah.
I'm currently not sure if is better sun titan or grave titan. The second one is the only I've got to play at tournament so I'm going to try it.

From the sideboard I'm not really sure if we really need virtue's ruin vs WG decks but I'm gona try.
If I didn't found any lilian of the veil I'll play with chocke but I think liliana is awsome vs combo and vs control and decks with few creatures cause can play to different roles in the game.

We'll see that saturday.

Edit: list was missing the fourth pod

[Rabrab]

I don't know why people playing Sensei's Divining Top. It's the best cards since the Mental Misstep ban and we can use them.

Today I'm testing a Podlist again.

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Scrubland
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [R] Bayou
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [R] Savannah
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower

// Creatures
1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [DDE] Bone Shredder
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
1 [UL] Deranged Hermit
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [NPH] Birthing Pod
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [M11] Duress
SB: 2 [PLC] Damnation

0 Academy Rector: He's very slow and lose vs each graveyard removal.
0 Recurring Nightmare: That's a misstake. I would play 1 but I can't cut any card:'( Can anyone help me?
0 Titan: Tao repeat my reallife comment with Birthing Pod works on CA and Witness + Exarch + Reveillark or hermit + metamorph win any game.
0 Hymn to Tourach: I prefer Thoughtseize on cc1 and only black instead double black manacosts. I hate games where i fetch 2 swamps and 1 forest in 3 turns. You need bb turn 2 and want to play explorer turn 1.

4 Sensei's Divining Top: It's the 4of tutor in this deck (zenith, explorer, fetch, pod). You have the CQ in lategames vs controldecks and can search your discard + pod or whatelse.
3 Thoughtseizes: look at Hymn comment + look at opponents hand -> easier to discard NO or Jace.
1 Pulse: I would like to play 2-3 but I haven't any slots. It's a cc3 removalspell -> swords to plowshares are faster. Pulse is my one out vs Jace otherwise i've 1 Thrun (4 zenith), 3 Pod (more CA than Jace), 7 discard (Hymns aren't savely discardspells)
3 Pod: They cost 3 mana and i can use it firstly turn 3 like a good draw. When i need them I can search it with Sensei's Divning Top.

What would you say about my minds?
What can I cut for 1 Recurring Nightmare? 1 Nightmare + 3 Pod +4 Top seem very great I my opinion.

So far
Rabrab

[Philipp2293]

I've been testing this 4 Colour Gifts list lately. First tests show promising results, but of course there still has to be some finetuning.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [US] Plains (4)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [US] Swamp (3)
1 [PT] Island (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Forest (1a)
1 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland

// Creatures
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
2 [COM] Eternal Witness
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
2 [M11] Sun Titan

// Spells
3 [INN] Liliana of the Veil
1 [ROE] Consuming Vapors
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [R] Regrowth
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse

[berry]

I wish this list could settle soon, with Amsterdam coming up. :/

I really like the BUG NO-list but am lacking some card to test it, was game about testing the GBw list but I really don't like the pods.

But you people believe the BP-version of GBw is the strongest?

[Equinozio]

A friend and I made top8 and top4 in a small gpt to Amsterdam. Both played a UGW podlist like the one above.

The most important changes where that he played Go for the trhoat ( 2 ) and I played Swords to plowshares ( 3 ) . He played 23 lands and i played 21 in favour the third removal and one ooze .

We both had to play a mirror in the first round that he passed over me with better hand and draws. Then at the top8 I passed over him. The first game I stp'd grave titan and some other dudes and with ooze I ate the ones at the graveyard.

I'm feeling that the deck is really good but some draws are very slower and get controlled by blue players or get overruned by aggro players.

I've tried hym to tourach but I don't like it.

[berry]

Equinozio: I'm really interested in decklists! GB? GBw? Hand me both! :)

I've been looking for an _updated_ post-misstep list thats either GBw or GB that can handle both aggro and combo well.

[Equinozio]

My deck list was this:

/ Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [A] Bayou
2 [A] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [COM] Veteran Explorer
3 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
3 [COM] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [EX] Spike Weaver
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [M12] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [NPH] Birthing Pod
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
/ Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 loaming shaman
SB: 1 wickerboug elder
SB: 2 choke
SB: 2 [PT] Virtue's Ruin

I didn't have any liliana of the veil so I played with choke. And the loaming shaman should be mindslicer.
Is the same list of some posts above.

[berry]

I like it, but it feels a bit slow with 2 Academy Rectors? 4th Pod over 4th Zenith feels weird too. But it's a nice base, thanks!

[Maveric78f]

I don't the Zeniths at all in this archetype. As everybody, I played them a lot and I came to the conclusion it was harmful to the game plans. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the green creatures are only enablers that have to be played for their very cost. Also, Dryad Arbor is very anti synergistic with Deed. The strength of GSZ is generally to be an accelerator as much as a kill. In this deck, it does not adopt well either role.

To talk about Equinozio's list, I don't get exactly the reason for the second rector neither.

[Equinozio]

I don't like the Zeniths at all in this archetype. As everybody, I played them a lot and I came to the conclusion it was harmful to the game plans. If you pay attention, you'll notice that the green creatures are only enablers that have to be played for their very cost. Also, Dryad Arbor is very anti synergistic with Deed. The strength of GSZ is generally to be an accelerator as much as a kill. In this deck, it does not adopt well either role.

Zenith is a top-deck-war winner. If I have a destroyed pod or deed I zenith into witness. If i want creatures and life I get kitchenn. I have a swarm of dudes some times I want spikeweaver.

I don't like to zenith for 0 unless I have a turn to Pod with more dudes and lands to being able to activate as soon as posible the pod. The best play in this deck is zenith for veteran. The dryad is the easier way we can active a regurring nightmare out of no where or begin a chain of pods ( slower I know ).


To talk about Equinozio's list, I don't get exactly the reason for the second rector neither.

Being able to reach as soon as posible recurring nightmare activations is acheved by having to of them. But as I like to test new things to feel I I'm on the right cards I cutted one for a phyrexian metamorph.
We can deal more easier with cards like progenitus and emrakuls.

I've added a second phyrexian tower because I feel is the strongest card in the deck. I'd like to play four zeniths but for the moment I play only 3 cause I don't want to cut anything from the deck.

[berry]

I like your reasoning, nice explanations. Especially when it comes to GSZ, that's also why I'd play 4 (cut the 4th pod).

I think 1 Rector and 1 Nightmare is enough, you can win without the Nightmare easily, anyway... It gives you insane reach lategame, but you don't need it very early.

Also, **** yes 2 Phyrexian Towers. Sick card. Although without Hymns (why have EVERYONE cut them?) maybe not as strong.

[eq.firemind]

100% agree with Maveric78f on Zenith.
Yeah, it is versatile, but I just never want Witness for 4 mana, Explorer for 2 mana and so on.

I'm playing almost the same list posted in first pages and it still feels awesome:

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Eternal Witness
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Innocent Blood
1 Dismember
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Despair
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 mix of Beast Within/Maelstrom Pulse (now 2/1)
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Karn Liberated

Sideboard
4 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Nature's Claim
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Kitchen Finks


The latest addition is Beast Within. Only Sorcery-speed removal was week part and it is now solved. 3/3 is not a problem since I run Innocent Blood and full 4 Deeds. And you can EOT kill your own Explorer with it.
Sideboard is not set in stone, but I want to fight Storm (Duress), Hive Mind (Duress, Nature's Claim), GY strategies (Extraction), Prog and Emmy (Edict), Jace (Duress, Pulse). Finks are for aggro strategies, but with Misstep banned Jace.decks became less popular so Pulse could turn into 2nd Finks or faster removal.
At this point I don't see reasons to splash third color. This deck can do anything I want with green and black only.

[berry]

Man... A quick second reply here.

That GB list is awesome, although playing it would make me miss Swords very much... But Innocent Blood feels great so maybe... I like the 1 off Tendrils of Despair, maybe fit a 1 off Diabolic Intent in there too!

The only problem I have with Garruk as a wincon is that you have to draw it, but this list is built around that, I guess.

Another problem I have with that list is that it feels way more dependant on a good starting hand, to be able to control your way into the draws you need (with 0 pods 0 GSZ), but again... It's BUG without the U, I guess thats what it's built to do.

[Tainted]

Have you ever think about add a couple of Enlightened Tutor, I know there's the omnipresent problem of " what to cut?", and probably T1 is better going with veteran or therapy but a T2 E.Tut will be good to me especially because it can tutor everything i need: R. Nightmare, Pod, Deed, Metamorph(If you're fighting against Emrakul or Prog deck). And now that MM is gone maybe we can give it a try(I'm just asking before buy them).
The first time I took the wrong way trying to use fauna shaman as a tutor, tutorable via GSZ, and like most of the creature of this format she die under every lavamancer-bolt-swords/path...but on the other hand artifacts and enchantment have a lot less hate but i don't find any other tutor for it.
For the "what-to-cut" problem i will probably take out 1(of the 2) Academy rector and some GSZ; in the end most of the times GSZ to me is a veteran explorer n° 5-7 or a "looking for a finisher and I'm too lazy to sacrifice something to pod"(if your finisher is green) while E. Tut can be Pod 5-X, Deed 4-X...

[Arianrhod]

Been a while since I've posted here, but I'm still working on the deck. I've gotten my list about to where I'm comfortable with it, and I figured I'd share the near-endpoint list. It's come a long, long way from the first lists I posted ten-odd pages ago.


4x Veteran Explorer
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Eternal Witness
3x Academy Rector
2x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtors' Knell

2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize

3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Island
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor

//SB
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Choke
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Stony Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Duress
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus


I do want to squeeze in a singleton Kokusho again...he was in the earlier versions of the deck, and I liked him a lot when he was in. Like Yosei, he can win games nothing else can, especially with either the Nightmare or Knell engines going. Every time I want to say that Yosei can be something better, he bullshits me a win out of nowhere, and I am forced to rethink my stance on him.

In my particular version, Liliana of the Veil is absolutely stupid. She has amazing synergy with Sun Titan, and is completely backbreaking when she lands on t2 after an Explorer being set off.

My maindeck can handle a lot of things, and the sideboard is built strictly to deal with specific problems that the main can't as well. The deck abuses the graveyard alongside enchantments, which means that most decks have to board in a lot of cards and weaken their own plan accordingly. No/Pro comes in when the opponent brings in graveyard hate, while the deck can play through enchantment hate just fine. Grip is mildly annoying, but it's also a pretty good Therapy target g2/3 vs green decks, depending on what you beat them with g1.

This version isn't necessarily for everyone...a lot of the card choices are different from what seems to have been agreed upon in the thread now, but it suits my playstyle perfectly and does pretty good work for me. Also, I have yet to drop a single game to Zoo, out of ~6 matches. We'll see where the meta shifts, but at the moment, I'm very content with this list. It's incredibly hard to play, but it's also brutally unfair. You just need to know what your line of play is at all intersections.

RE: Pod.

In my humble opinion, I don't think that the Pod lists will work as well as the non-Pod based lists. Pod is a pretty powerful engine, and I'm sure that if/when it does get broken, Explorer will be there somewhere. But in testing, I felt that Pod was a little too clunky, even with Explorer ramp. It also mandates that you play a lot of creatures, which is something that I think that this deck does not want to do. Deed, discard, spot, and 'walkers are all very important in this deck, because you have to be prepared for your opponents' bombs. Usually, due to the sorcery speed Therapies, you will need to react to your opponents' plays before you can deploy your own, and I'm unconvinced that Pod is a serious -enough- threat that it will trump whatever stupidity your opponent is doing. Granted that sometimes you get to do stuff before they do, depending on the turn Explorer sets off and the hand/board state in question...but if you use your Explorer mana to play Pod, with no creatures left in play, and then they drop 2-3 dudes, it seems a little unfortunate to me. I'm far from opposed to Pod -- I play it in standard. But I'm unsure that the tools are all there at the moment for it to work in legacy.

I'll reiterate, though, that when it does work in Legacy, Veteran Explorer will be played alongside it, no question.

RE: Top.

I actually think that Top is unnecessary, and those spots would serve you better as more removal/bombs. Here's my rationale: the deck already topdecks like a champion. As a result of Explorers, we thin our deck out much faster than other decks in legacy. Late-game, there are literally no bad topdecks (at least in my version). Explorer can be a little iffy sometimes, as can discard, but the discard can still be useful if they are holding back removal or counter, and Explorer, if nothing else, can thin your deck out even further, or be a sac outlet for Nightmare. Such are my thoughts, unpopular as they probably are.

RE: List sorting out.

A page or so back, someone was saying that they hoped the lists would sort out and have an "accepted" list. I don't believe (and I certainly don't hope) that this will ever, or should ever, happen with this deck. It's very much in the same deck archetype as Survival, pre-Vengevine. Everyone who wants to sleeve up Veteran Explorers, IMO, should build and tune their own lists that are best suited to their playstyles. Threads like this should exist so that different people can share their ideas and toss out cards that others may not know exist (hi, Tendrils of Despair), or are legal (hi, Academy Rector). But hoping for an accepted list that can just be netdecked just seems to violate the nature of the deck.

[berry]

I think you misunderstood my hope for an accepted "list", it was more an accepted "base", and I think we are getting there!

So far I've seen:

Gifts-Explorer
GBw Pod/Zenith
GB Controllish
BUG NO-explorer.

These are bases which you can build upon, but they all play out rather differently, are you getting where im coming from? :)

I really do like your list but I think I'd need shitloads of time to get into a Gifts/Rector-build (and IF I'm going to Amsterdam, that's rather soon).

I surely will steal some ideas from it, though! I agree that Liliana must be bonkers and since I'm already playing here in standard, here we go!

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, I get you now. Sorry if I came down a little too hard -- I'm pretty firmly anti-netdecking, especially with a deck like this. My bad.

I do think that this archetype would benefit from having a few separate threads, since with the four archetypes you pointed out above all crammed into one thread, it's hard to get any serious debate for any one version -- that is one reason why I stopped posting here.

The Gifts/Rector style that I endorse isn't really THAT hard to get into, but it's hard to master. The deck's strengths can guide you through a lot of mistakes while you're learning the deck. I don't know when Amsterdam is, since I'm on the other side of the ocean. But I'd definitely recommend at least trying it and seeing if it meshes with your style. If you play Vintage (not MUD or Dredge), then you'll probably have no problems sliding right into it. Alternatively, if you have Cockatrice, I could get in some testing with you over that sometime and try to help you get ready.

[Philipp2293]

Welcome back :)

I guess I have to get some Lili 2.0 now. Today was a quiet day at work and I've been brainstorming how to abuse the Lili/Sun Titan interaction best.

What I really like is that she is basically a discard outlet for Titan too, if you haven't got the mana yet. It happened a few times during testing that I want -> Activate Liliana -> Discard Sun Titan -> Drop Rec. Nightmare. Hot.

[conboy31]

Judging from the decks I have been seeing locally as well as watching SCG events, it might be necessary to have 2 maindeck Scavenging Ooze in conjunction with X GSZ's.
I have been increasingly impressed with its utility in the format.

[Arianrhod]

Hey guys -- I'm going to be participating in the Jupiter Games event tomorrow. I'll post a report after the event is over (translation: probably Sunday pending how early we get back). My list will be the same as posted a page back, with the following changes:

Main:
-2 Thoughtseize
+1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
+1 Scrubland

Sideboard:
-3 Natural Order
-1 Progenitus
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction

I would love to have the Thoughtseizes main, as well as probably like an Innocent Blood. I just don't see the room there at the moment, though...I want another land, and I never should have taken Kokusho out in the first place. I looped somebody with Nightmare for 15 in one turn a few days back in testing. I was having trouble actually killing people sometimes, so I figure that another bomb is probably a good idea. I took the Volrath's Stronghold out a few versions back, since I was never using it, and with Liliana, the interaction between Stronghold and Fleshbag was no longer in place. I think that the event tomorrow is -probably- going to show that the spot would be better served by an Urborg for more advanced Nightmare looping, but I'm going to try it with the Scrubland and see how it goes.

SB is fairly simple...Extraction seems good vs the format in general, and I think that I like it being free more than I like it being uncounterable. My reasoning specifically is High Tide...I'd like the ability to do something at least while my opponent is masturbating. If I do put the Urborg in, I'll probably switch this with Extirpate. We'll see how often it gets countered tomorrow, I suppose. Natural Order is terrible right now, and people are probably going to want to bring in their Metamorphs/Images against this deck anyway due to Titan triggers and legend ruling the double dragons. I see no reason to open myself up to this line of play even more than I already am, and that gives me the four spots for Thoughtseizes and Surgicals.

So yeah, we'll see how she goes. Here's hoping I hit Zoo every round =D

[Arianrhod]

It seems to have double posted for some reason. Sorry.

[Nekrataal]

I think the deck deserves a spot in the established section. TheCouncil already appreciated that this with a new section created (Nic Fit) http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Nic%20Fit&format=Legacy . Also the deck is putting up good results lately.

[Fjedsen]

. Delete .

[Fjedsen]

New to this thread !

I really love this deck and tested some builds online.
My final Version is GBw with Zenith, without Pod. Pretty standart build ;)

Some questions:
1. How good is Reveillark, Fleshbag Marauder, any nongreen silverbullet without Pod ?

2. Are there any ways to beat combo constantly ? (Ichneumon Druid doesn't seem right to me :D)

Thanks for your help !

[Arianrhod]

So, I played yesterday in the first major legacy event at a local store, Jake’s Cards and Games. JCG was just opened fairly recently by a member of the community, so I definitely wanted to support him. He’s hoping for the store to evolve and grow along a similar path to Jupiter Games, so best of him to him there.

Now, the deck. It’s changed a good bit since I posted previously, after running it at both SCG:Baltimore and the last two Jupiter events. I realized some things weren’t as good as I thought they were, and others were much better.


4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
3x Academy Rector
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
1x Adarkar Valkyrie

1x Debtors’ Knell
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Moat
3x Pernicious Deed

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Green Sun’s Zenith

2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Garruk Relentless

2x Sensei’s Divining Top

1x Dryad Arbor

3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains

//SB:

1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Choke
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Swords to Plowshares


Round 1: Adam with Combo Elves*

*Note that this build of combo elves is a little different. Adam was playing a good friend of mine’s deck, which I knew was built with the Eldrazi Green archetype in mind. As such, it was sporting Summoning Traps, multiple space monsters alongside Priests of Titania and Archdruids, with GSZ, Fauna Shamans, and Empaths serving as tutoring (and a singleton Primeval -> Eye of Ugin).

He makes some elves while I assemble a board, hitting Therapy on turn 2. He’d kept a business-light hand with a bunch of dorks and a pair of Harmonizes. I flashback on my Explorer, taking them. This eventually resulted in the situation of Moat + Kokusho + Recurring Nightmare for the win.

(In: +2 Swords, +1 Teeg, out: -2 Liliana, -1 Hymn)

Game two sees Adam spew his hand on to the field as only Elves can really do. Unfortunately for him, Pernicious Deed happens, and wipes it all away. I believe that I Zenithed out the Master, and wolf beats got there.

1-0.

Round 2: Bryce with Speed Goblins

Before this round, I had talked to a friend who was playing TES. He told me that he’d just lost to Raging Goblin followed by a bunch more quick, small goblins. As I sat down, I recognized my opponent as the same guy that my friend had just played. Time for a little revenge.

He comes out Raging, while I make an Explorer. He drops a Balloon Brigade and another Rager, but doesn’t attack. This makes me a little curious, and I tried to think of why he wouldn’t want to lose a goblin. I think I have an idea, and I Therapy him naming Goblin Grenade. His hand was two Grenades and a Mountain. Welp. He stalls out on land while I drop Sun Titan and Yosei.

(In: +3 Finks, + Sanctity, +2 Swords, out: -2 Liliana, -4 Hymn)

I open with my singleton Leyline in my opener, alongside a lot of lands and a Moat. I decide to keep it. Bryce gets very sad when I drop the Leyline, and I learn later on that he also ran Bolts and War Strikes alongside his Grenades, and had in fact kept a very burn-heavy hand. He hits me down to 15, and then I drop the Moat and proceed to do obscene things to him involving Debtors’ Knell, Nightmare, and Dragons.

2-0.

Round 3: Zach with Burn

The aforementioned friend who had loaned Adam the elf deck. Zach and I have played this matchup many times over many different iterations of both of our decks. We both know it’s a coin flip, which is a little unfortunate since the winner can double ID into the top 8, and I was hungering for some EDH action.

Game one is pretty standard stuff. We’re racing each other as hard as we possibly can -- I drop a Sun Titan and start beating him down, but he finds the Bolt he needs and we’re on to game two.

Note: I forgot to keep track of my sideboarding exactly at this point. I’ll try to recreate it as possible. (In: +3 Finks, +Sanctity, + 2 Krosan Grip, out: -Moat, -Knell, -2 Liliana, -Yosei, -Titan). Not sure if I boarded out the two 6‘s...I usually board out some number of them here to lower my curve, but that doesn’t feel right to me for some reason.

Game two, Zach keeps a slowish hand with a few pieces of graveyard hate, and is punished for it. I Zenith out a Finks, and he manages to get me to a whopping 16 by the time I kill him.

Game three is tight. A pair of Zeniths find me two Finks, and Rector digs up my Leyline of Sanctity. I’m back up to 9 life and have lethal on board, with Sanctity up, so I’m feeling pretty good. Then he rips a Price of Progress (the one he left in his deck), hitting me for 10. Usually I don’t have that many non-basics, but my hand that game was weird. I also probably should have stopped playing land at some point, but unfortunately this deck is mana-hungry enough that I tend not to think about that option, and it costs me here.

2-1.

Round 4: Harold with Esper Control

Harold loves some Dreadnaught, so I figured I’d see at least one of them by the time the game was over, and I was right. His brew of the day sported Snapcaster abuse alongside multiple planeswalkers, Counter/Top, and a ton of counter and removal.

My notes are terrible for this matchup, but I do remember that Harold mulled to an amazing 5 game one. He had answers for my first three or four plays, while slowly digging himself out of his mulligan. My turn one Veteran beats him down to 13 by itself, at which point it’s joined by a few other weenies. He takes a big hit just before he dies -- I think from a Sun Titan, but I don’t remember for sure.

(In: +Choke, +Chains, +Teeg, out: ?)

Game two, he hits his Dreadnought. Unfortunately for him, I have a Deed ready and waiting. We dance around for a while. Eventually he drops a Jace and starts trying to brainstorm his hand back, while I proceed to beat at Jace with an Explorer and a Rector. I finally land a Garruk, which blows up my Rector and transforms. That grabs the Knell, and starts doing stupid things. I draw in to Choke naturally, and although he bounces it once, he can’t answer it a second time, and dies to beatdown.

3-1.

Round 5: ID with Eric, High Tide.

3-1-1.

Top 8: Tony with TES

Good friend and member of my car -- was not looking forward to this. TES is one of the decks that I am always afraid of because they can win literally out of nowhere. You can think that you’ve got it all you want, and then they topdeck an Ad Naus or a Tutor and go nuts.

Game one, he mulls to 6. I Therapy turn one, naming LED -- he reveals Petal x2, Rite of Flame, Ritual, Gemstone Mine, and Burning Wish. He’s a little short of whatever he wants to do, and I proceed to rip his hand apart. He floods into Duresses, Moxes, and lands, while I drop bombs and kill him.

(In: +Chains, +3 Surgical Extraction, +Teeg, out: -Moat, -Knell, -2 Garruk, -Valkyrie)

He mulls to 5, and I’m feeling a bit better about my shaky two lands, Chains, business keep. Then he kills me on turn one. Awesome.

Game three is a nail-biter. I have an early Therapy again, which again I miss on. He reveals 2 Ponder, 2 Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gemstone, Scalding. Scary shit. He uses some Ponders, I Hymn away some stuff. I Witness back my Hymn, and then flashback Therapy. He brainstorms in response. I know that he’s going to hide his Infernal Tutor, because I’d love to get that. I name Dark Ritual, and find that he hid one of those, too. I still take away one, though. With the fear of the Hymn in my hand, he tries to go off. The mana isn’t there, though, without his second ritual. He concludes by Burning for Thoughtseize, taking my GSZ. I start to beat down, and get him to 13 when he topdecks Ad Naus with mana to cast it. However, in the process of going off, he hits both the 2nd Ad Nauseum and the maindeck Tendrils, putting him to 1. He mini-tendrilses me , putting himself back to 15 and me to 4. I know that he still has a Burning in hand from the Ad Naus, which means that he can Wish for Tendrils #2 and kill me next turn. Luckily, I have a Therapy, and take his last chance of winning.

Top 4: Eric with High Tide.

I never look forward to this, although at least Surgicals make me feel like I can interact somewhat.

I’m not even going to say anything about game one. Never of us were happy with that game -- our decks both punted on us very hard, and I managed to beat him down and take it. But it was very unsatisfying.

(In: +Chains, +Choke, +3 Surgicals, +Teeg, out: -Moat, -Knell, -more expensive things]

Game two represents a Herculean effort on his part. I disrupt him as much as possible, but he eventually Time Spirals anyway, and we’re off. He doesn’t find what he wants, and shapes his second hand a little before shipping. I Surgical his Preordains, which proves to really slow him down. Tons of discard and counters later, he Spirals again. And again. And AGAIN. After the fourth Spiral, he almost whiffs, Snapcastering a Brainstorm as a final shot. The bottom card of his Brainstorm is a Scroll, which gets Wish, which gets Freeze for about sixty times the necessary storm count.

Game three, I see an opener with several pieces of discard and a Surgical. He starts to sculpt again, and I waste no time Surgical’ing his Brainstorms. I draw into another Surgical, and use that one to take his Ponders, too. I eventually Rector in Chains, and, coupled with my clock, that signals the end for High Tide.

Finals: Tom with Punishing Zoo

To this day, I have yet to lose an individual game to Zoo, let alone the match. I lean back and relax after surviving two combo decks.

Game one he comes out stupid fast and drops me to 1 before I can stabilize. Part of it is my fault, because I kept a shaky one-lander with some disruption and an Explorer, which turned amazing beyond that. After a few turns, I hit a green source, which lets me get mana before I go to 1. This results in a Pernicious Deed, which clears his board. Deed is quickly followed by Sun Titan, and he can’t manage to find a burn spell to do the last point of damage. Phew.

(In: + 3 Finks, +2 Swords, out: ? I need to remember to write this shit down better)

Game two is textbook Zoo stomping. He makes dudes while I make a Moat, which protects me while I assemble Veil-Cursed Garruk + Rector + Master. He finally finds a Qasali and nukes the Moat, but then realizes that he can’t do anything anyway. I kill my Rector with Garruk, finding Debtors’ Knell and another Rector. He tries to actually do something before he dies, which results in his army getting wiped out by deathtouching wolf tokens. I Master my Rector, finding Recurring Nightmare, and set up a loop with Kokusho which results in a one-turn clock. He can’t find anything to do about it and dies easily.

-----------

The deck is, I feel, very close to where it needs to be. I believe firmly that there is an Explorer deck somewhere that can break Gifts Ungiven in half, but honestly, I realized that I was splashing blue for two cards, and it’s been running a lot smoother since I took that out. Valkyrie was my experimental replacement for Grave Titan, which I wasn’t happy with. I wanted a third flyer for Moat purposes. Valk was okay, I guess, but I didn’t really have a chance to use her at all. She just came down and swung Vigilantly in one or two games. Liliana is amazing, sometimes. I’m thinking at this point that the way my deck is evolving, she’ll probably get cut, along with the Valk spot. I think that the double dragons are probably enough for Moat, since they’re pretty hard to effectively solve. They pretty much demand a Swords, and by the time that matters, my opponents are either out of Swords, or they’ve been discarded first, or my dragons are safely in my graveyard, Nightmare looping -- at which point they never get priority to swords in the first place. At this point, I’m thinking that the 3rd Garruk is probably going to happen, and the two Liliana spots will probably become either like a pair of Vindicates or a pair of Baneslayers. I can’t Empath or GSZ for Baneslayer, which is kind of a problem, but I think that with the 3rd Garruk, I’d probably be okay to put them in. Otherwise, though, the deck feels amazing.

[Philipp2293]

Hi,

thanks a lot for the report.

As for the 2 Slots you wanna open up: No love for Qasali Pridemage? I think you should really consider him in one of those slots ;).

[Philipp2293]

So, I took Arianrhod's list (with his proposed changes, 2 Vindicates in those free slots) to our sunday legacy tournament in Vienna and failed horribly to a 2-3 record.

I played against:

UWB Esper Control 2-0: G1 he gets a gameloss for wrong decklist, G2 I open a strong hand involving some discard and double Garruk, first one gets forced, I easily control the board with the second which resolves until I seal the game with recurring Kokusho.

Team Portugal 0-1: There the downfall begins. We just finish one game, which is a ridiculous long grind where we trade back and forth, unfortunately he has his singleton Riptide Laboratory pretty early and gets ridiculous use out of his Snapcasters. Midgame I have him locked down with a Moat with lethal on his side, but he has Lili 2.0 online. I topdeck just lands for a few turns and eventually Lili ultimate seals the deal. This match was pretty exhausting and puts me on tilt.

Reanimator & Hive Mind both 0-2: I get thrashed pretty hard both games, as I keep loose hands in post G2s.

GW Maverick 2-0: Nothing much to say here, an easy win as he plays it out pretty weak. Ridiculous trashtalk going on next to me. I guess that's what I get for playing with a rogue deck.

Overall I have to say that I for sure didn't do the deck justice, as I'm pretty out of the loop concerning magic and legacy in the post misstep era. I've made several slight to major play mistakes and kept ridiculous loose hands both against reanimator and hive mind, I've got no clue what I was thinking.

So, now some points about the deck itself:

Changes I'll try for sure:

-Urborg +Phyrexian Tower: I was always short for sac outlets, and Urborg wasn't really impressive.

-Fierce Empath +Senseis Divining Top: Decks like this really want their manipulation to work properly in long grinds. I'm pretty sure I would have won against team portugal had I drawn a top. Fierce Empath did never matter as a GSZ target.

Changes I'll probably make:

-Debtor's Knell +Oblivion Ring: Knell is impressive for sure, but my first Rector activation usually fetches Deed or Moat cause Knell is too slow or has no targets at this point, and for later activations Nightmare is often as good as Knell (immediate effect and more uses per turn). The ring gives me a tutorable out for walkers, which I really felt I need.

Changes I could try:

-1 Garruk + 1 Elspeth: While the tutor/killing ability of Garruk was great all day, I feel that 2 of them are enough, since Elspeth stalls the board just as well, while turning my smaller dudes into respectable clocks, and more importantly, gives me another "flier" when I have a moat down. (moat was sick all day!)

[Arianrhod]

@Phillip --

Perhaps my luck is just terrible, but I always find ways of drawing the 2nd Tower when I have it in my deck. I don't disagree that having the increased chance of nut openers is good, to say nothing of the general utility of the sac outlet throughout. The nice thing about Urborg, though, is that it can often let you Nightmare loop mid/late game and blow someone completely out of the game. Otherwise, I usually find that I have trouble getting enough black mana to loop it sufficiently to win then and there.

How were the Vindicates for you? I've been testing 1 Qasali (per your recommendation) and 1 Finks from the SB as an additional way of annoying aggro...and also the two burn decks in my local meta. I'm a little questionable on the Finks -- I may make it a singleton Elspeth. The problem with her that I've always had in this deck is that you very, very rarely want to be fetching early plains with Explorer. In a G/B deck where white is more of a splash than anything, fetching WW unless it wins you the game (See: Leyline of Sanctity, Moat, Titan + stupidity) is risky. I used to run it much more pure tri-color, and I often found that even with Explorer assistance, I would have mana issues. Granted that I was also stretching even further for Gifts at that point, but still. I definitely like the idea of the extra "Flyer" that Elspeth provides.

I'll also defend the 3rd Garruk. I've been nothing but impressed with him, and although I'll grant that there are a few matchups where you board one or two copies of him out, most of the time he's an amazingly solid card which happens to have some of the most bonkers symmetry with the deck he's housed in that I think I've ever seen. One of the nicest things about having the 3rd copy, too, is that you don't have to be afraid to blow one or even two just as pure removal. You can afford to let one go, knowing that you'll draw more. My Garruks have killed quite a few flipped Delvers and Cliques now -- things that just so happen to be able to fly over the Moat that kolds everything else. I'd look to the flex spot that's currently occupied by Finks (in my list) before I took out the 3rd Garruk, for sure.

The Knell has been in and out of my build a few times. I'd recommend Faith's Fetters instead of O-Ring, if you want to go with removal route -- it makes Jaces look really, really stupid, and oftentimes it's just better than O-Ring since it's less likely to get Deed'ed out. I personally prefer the Knell because it gives me a default go-to enchantment for when the board state doesn't demand something of Rector. I'd like something different...but frankly, after looking through the entire list of enchantments in the game, nothing suits my fancy. Hopefully the next few sets will bring us something good on that front. I might put the Fetters back in. I dunno. One of the best things about Knell is that once it's out, it's pretty much lights-out for blue-based control. They don't have the ability to deal with that kind of attrition.

RE Empath: I've enjoyed having him around, since it lets you Zenith for Dragons...he also leads to some very dirty lines of play if you have Nightmare around...you can easily chain him into all of your sixes and just brute-force your opponent down. I tend to agree that a third top would be nice, but then, I also have a tendency of drawing multiples of those as well. Since we're not running Bob, I'm not sure that 3 Tops is really necessary. Empath is a card that, like Knell, I consider important to the deck; BUT, I can see arguments for cutting them for other things. This list is very tuned to me personally, and isn't necessarily the friendliest list to just pick up and play. Oftentimes the Empath isn't necessary and gets cut for sideboard stuff...but when you want him, he'll win you games by himself.

I'm sorry that you didn't do well with the deck -- I will confess that she's a particularly hard one to play, and it also doesn't help that you went up against Reanimator, which I personally hold to be the deck's worst matchup. It's certainly winnable, but it is definitely not fun. I'll admit that I haven't had the pleasure? of playing against Hive Mind -- it's pretty much died out over here since Misstep went away. As such, I can't profess to know how the matchup there would be. I wouldn't think that it would be the best -- but, we also run a -lot- of discard, and Surgicals out of the board to extract any combo pieces we hit (hi, Show and Tell). I've also filled the 1 Finks spot and the Thrun spot (I never boarded it in, even against blue!) with a pair of Memoricides in the board. Yes, I'm being completely serious. It provides a devastating way of closing the game against combo. I've found that we can slow combo down enough to win pretty easily -- the problem comes in actually killing them before they've reassembled enough crap to go off anyway. Memoricide fixes that quite nicely -- especially on a Time Spiral or [target annoying storm card]. ANT really loves it when you hit your Tendrils of Agony =)

[novatinhu]

Im not playing with W, my deck is BG and i like it, the list is:


// Lands
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
1 Viridian Shaman

// Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Beast Within
2 Harmonize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Chord of Calling

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Beast Within
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Thoughtseize


What do you think?
My meta is:

-Goblins
-BG dephts
-Reanimator
-UW grindstone
-UW stoneblade
-Affinity
-Zoo
-Maverick
-The gate
-Dragon stompy
-Agro elves

[Tao]

I hate to admit it but in the current format the deck seems underpowered. Not by a lot but I tried to fix it and couldn't get it done. Snapcaster is just a joke in a deck with Brainstorm, in both the Aggro and the control version. Add Removal and you get overrun by Delver/Stifle/Snapcaster+Bolt, add late game and you get outdrawn by Jace,Snapcaster and SFM. Mix it and you are 45% against both.

If I were to play something controlling I would currently not touch a deck without a blue base.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Actually i do have the feeling that the BG and BGW threat dense versions are amazingly strong in a blue meta if you add 3-4 Summoning Traps to the board.

[Arianrhod]

Stifle is admittedly annoying, but I feel like the various blue decks in the format at the moment have some problems keeping up with this deck. It might be because I run the Rector engine -- of all the matches where it's good, Debtors' Knell is an absolute -BEATING- against those types of decks. It just massively out-attritions them, which is usually what these types of matches are about. Along with the usual hand disruption and some help from the sideboard, I don't usually have much trouble against these kinds of decks. Also, Chains just WRECKS Brainstorm. If you're having trouble with Snapcaster-based decks, run a couple Chains of Mephistopheles in your sideboard. They're strong against combo as well as control, and once you strip a Snapcaster deck of its draw engines, they're actually pretty horrible -- we topdeck a million times better than they do.

I'm not sure about the usefulness of Summoning Trap. It is an interesting idea, for sure, but a lot of this deck's threats are non-creature -- planeswalkers of varying types, powerful enchantments, Birthing Pods, etc. Sure, Trapping into a Titan after they Force your Rector would be a savage beating, but I find myself doubting that the situation would come up too often. It certainly merits testing, though, especially for versions that are a little heavier on creature threats.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Traps is nice in the BG versions with 4 Witness, you basically chain through your deck until you find the eater you need ;)

BGW seems strong enough on it's own, might give it a try tonight.

[berry]

I'd to see you Debtor's Knell yourself a win vs Canadian Thresh, i.e. These are the kind of decks I'm fairly sure Tao is talking about - oh, and the monoblue splash for 4 plows main 4 paths board? That's exile your creature, 12 times.

[waSP]

Doesn't Extirpate do a pretty good job of stripping out the problem spells in a Snapcaster deck? Isn't Phyrexian Tower an excellent way of protecting against your creatures getting exiled? If that's a problem matchup in your meta, it's pretty easy to tweak to compensate. Maybe you could add in some more shroud dudes for beats.

[berry]

waSP's points are excellent, though!

[Windux]

I think this decks needs a faster start. Garruk ist good, but you need 5 mana for it. At this time, you want to play a Gifts and just turn the boardposition in your favor.

I would'nt play much bombs.
- Recurring Nightmare
- Lilliana of the Veil
- Deed
- 1-2 big creatures (aka Titan or Yosei)
- 3 Gifts

With Kitchen Finks, Witness and maybe Rector you have enough little beats, so that big finishers are not necessary most of the time.

Instead of this cards, I would play more acceleration to keep track with Wasteland, Stifle, Daze etc.
I don't want to flashback a Threapy on Explorer just to get my Garruk or Debtor's Knell dazed.

Phyrexian Tower, Volrath Stronghold, Witness, Recurring Nightmare are enough cards to get everything returned you want to (Tower against StoP ;) ). So we don't need much bombs, but more cheaper good cards.

[eq.firemind]

Thrun, the Last Troll is still a huge pain in blue player's ass.

[Fjedsen]

Hey,

I've been testing this deck for quite a while now.
I think I had ca a billion builds with GB or GBw. I got to say, that I liked the versions with white a bit more because of Swords to Plowshares and good sideboard options against combo.

My actual list looks like this:

Creature [16]:
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Eternal Witness
2x Wall of Blossom
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Ghave, Guru of the Spores
1x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spike Weaver

Enchantment [4]:
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Pernicious Deed

Instant [6]:
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Beast Within
1x Skeletal Scrying

Sorcery [10]:
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy

Artifact [2]:
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Land [22]:
3x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
2x Plains
3x Swamp
4x Forest

Sideboard:
4x Duress (No money for Thoughtseize atm)
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Extirpate

The MD might look a bit random but in testing it was great !

I give you some explanation on the 'weird' choices I had:

Hierarch is a huge beater and brings some life. The regeneration ability wasn't relevant yet.
I don't know if i should play 2 MD Kitchen Finks or the Hierarch/Finks split. Did someone tested with Hierarch and got any results ?

Ghave, Guru of the Spores is the latest addition. In the few games I played with him he was great ! Sadly better then Deranged Hermit which I really love :/
He brings a 5/5 body, another sacrifice outlet if you need one, pumps creatures and offers nice combat tricks.

Skeletal Scrying found its way in this list after I've read that CalebD tested it and on paper in theory and in practice this card is awesome. I started testing with 2 Scryings but cut it down to 1 right now. The reason is that you often don't want to remove that many cards when you are playing with Witness, Sun Titan and Recurring Nightmare. And often i couldn't afford to cast the 2nd Scrying even if I had it. Instant card draw (usually 3-4 cards at end of turn) gives you the gas in the late game you need to get full control of the board.

Beast Within replaces the 3rd Maelstrom Pulse. As instant it can be very useful. But 3rd Maelstrom Pulse would also be ok I guess.

Sensei's Diving Top didn't convince me yet. But I think it is a really great card and can't be kicked of the list after testing 5-6 games.

Sideboard options are obvious:
4x Duress -> Only vs combo
2x Ethersworn Canonist -> Vs Combo
1x Gaddock Teeg -> Vs Combo
2x Extirpate -> Dredge, Reanimator, 'graveyard based decks'
2x Tormods Crypt -> Dredge, Reanimator, 'graveyard based decks'
1x Thrun, the Last Troll -> Vs. 'blue based controll decks'
1x Qasali Pridemage -> Vs. annoying Enchantments/Artifacts
2x Diabolic Edict -> Show and Tell decks, NO decks, sometimes vs Reanimator but not that often
With Swords to Plowshares in the MD I don't think that additional stuff vs Aggro is needed.

I'm pretty happy with this list and the only thing I would change is the Sun Titan. Sometimes he is really great but often he just brings back an Explorer or Land which I don't need at that point of the game.
Did someone test Sun Titan and had the same feeling about this giant ?

Perhaps I am going to play this list with slightly changes at a tournament on sunday !
A short report will follow :D

[Arianrhod]

@Fjedsen

Sometimes Sun Titan is indeed rather meh. Other times, though, he's bringing back Deeds or Witnesses and breaking the game clean in half. Vigilance is also surprisingly relevant sometimes. I definitely would not cut him if you're in white anyway.

Other thoughts --

Since you're running the full four Zeniths anyway, I'd suggest Fierce Empath. Some people like him, some don't -- I personally think he's great, but you should at least test him and see what you think. Enabling your zeniths to grab your titans is pretty awesome.

I've thought about Ghave several times, but I could just never bring myself to do it. Glad he's doing work for you.

Hierarch is interesting, but he seems like he'd be a little ... ehhhh. Most of the time Finks is just better for that purpose.

Why no Hymn to Tourach? It's one of the most devastating ways for this deck to remove your opponent's options -- t1 Therapy -> t2 Explorer, flashback, Hymn = your opp doesn't have a hand. Some decks can actually take advantage of the Explorer mana, so having ways of punishing them for wanting to do stuff with that mana is good (Deed is the other primary one).

Your list is a lot more Rock-based than mine is -- you have a ton more removal, for example, whereas I have Moat and Garruks (Relentless). I'd still consider a Garruk or two if you can find the room for him .. probably not the full three I'm running, though, since you don't have Rector.

The Edicts look weak in the board to me. I'd consider either Krosan Grip or even just more grave hate -- maybe Surgicals. I tend to prefer Surgical with this deck, because it shores up the High Tide matchup a bit. If only so far as you can still do things and tap out, while their Spirals draw you into Surgicals so you can still interact....or at least you feel like you can.

I'd also probably take out the 4th Verdant for a singleton Scrubland -- sometimes, it's just nice to have that color option -- Therapy + Swords is one easy example.

Skeletal is a card I've wanted to try out as well, but I feel as though it's better in a version with a little bit of a life-gain focus. Such a list would probably include other cards that I've toyed with the idea of: Bitterblossom and Greed come immediately to mind...even Phyrexian Arena. Just one is probably okay, though, and you do have Finks + Hierarch (or double Finks depending on what you decide) to recoup from the life loss.

[Fjedsen]

@Fjedsen

Sometimes Sun Titan is indeed rather meh. Other times, though, he's bringing back Deeds or Witnesses and breaking the game clean in half. Vigilance is also surprisingly relevant sometimes. I definitely would not cut him if you're in white anyway.

Other thoughts --

Since you're running the full four Zeniths anyway, I'd suggest Fierce Empath. Some people like him, some don't -- I personally think he's great, but you should at least test him and see what you think. Enabling your zeniths to grab your titans is pretty awesome.

I've thought about Ghave several times, but I could just never bring myself to do it. Glad he's doing work for you.

Hierarch is interesting, but he seems like he'd be a little ... ehhhh. Most of the time Finks is just better for that purpose.

Why no Hymn to Tourach? It's one of the most devastating ways for this deck to remove your opponent's options -- t1 Therapy -> t2 Explorer, flashback, Hymn = your opp doesn't have a hand. Some decks can actually take advantage of the Explorer mana, so having ways of punishing them for wanting to do stuff with that mana is good (Deed is the other primary one).

Your list is a lot more Rock-based than mine is -- you have a ton more removal, for example, whereas I have Moat and Garruks (Relentless). I'd still consider a Garruk or two if you can find the room for him .. probably not the full three I'm running, though, since you don't have Rector.

The Edicts look weak in the board to me. I'd consider either Krosan Grip or even just more grave hate -- maybe Surgicals. I tend to prefer Surgical with this deck, because it shores up the High Tide matchup a bit. If only so far as you can still do things and tap out, while their Spirals draw you into Surgicals so you can still interact....or at least you feel like you can.

I'd also probably take out the 4th Verdant for a singleton Scrubland -- sometimes, it's just nice to have that color option -- Therapy + Swords is one easy example.

Skeletal is a card I've wanted to try out as well, but I feel as though it's better in a version with a little bit of a life-gain focus. Such a list would probably include other cards that I've toyed with the idea of: Bitterblossom and Greed come immediately to mind...even Phyrexian Arena. Just one is probably okay, though, and you do have Finks + Hierarch (or double Finks depending on what you decide) to recoup from the life loss.

Hmmm ... I think in my white based version of the deck will always be a Sun Titan :D

Yeah Ghave is awesome. He's just too good. With enough mana (which should be on the battlefield) he can never be removed with StP, he helps pushing damage through and no other creature will be removed via StP. Give him a try ;)

Hymn is awesome. It's awkward but I always thought, that in a white based version it is too difficult to cast Hymn regularly on turn 2-3.
I first started my testing with the GB list of Tao and even in that version I had difficulties to cast Hymn. Perhaps I try this out sometimes with another GB version or GBsupersmallwhitesplash version.
In theory the start with Explorer, Therapy into Hymn is neckbreaking for your opponent but if I did the math right the chances of getting this start is about 10% per game. That's not a number I want to rely on.

Personally I like the rock version a bit more than the combo approach. It hat nothing to do with the combo version it is just fits my personal style of play way better ;)
And Garruk needs a place in there too ... It's just not enough space for such great cards :D

And thanks for your hint with the Surgical Extractions. Now I like them more than Extirpates :)

[Arianrhod]

Hmm...I almost never have issues getting Hymn online t2. My first fetch/land drop is usually a Bayou (I run 3 in case of Waste/to increase chances of having them). Then usually either an Explorer is fired off from Therapy/Tower (which adds BB by itself) and I grab black for Hymn, or I fetch for a Scrub and go from there...or have a natural Swamp. I think there have been like three times in six months where I haven't been able to hit Hymn turn two -- maybe I'm just lucky.

I'm not going to do a full report on Jupiter yesterday -- I scrubbed out pretty hard. I started the event on tilt from getting a speeding ticket on the way up (when I was accelerating up a very steep hill, so I kind of needed to be speeding a little to make it up), so I knew things weren't going to go well from the start.

Round one was Past in Flames combo -- he raped me game one, I drew well out of a mull to five game 2 and double Surgicaled his Rite of Flames and his Grapeshots (he tried to Intuition for triple Rite at the end of my turn, which I know means death). Then game 3 I had Leyline out, Memoricided his Past in Flames and his Empty the Warrens, and just couldn't kill him before time ran out. Unfortunate.

Round two was Sneaky Show, which, along with Reanimator, I consider the deck's only bad matchup. Joy. Game one I flash/Therapy'd him and saw a pair of Progenituses with a active (but mana-free) Sneak Attack out -- and then proceeded to drop Moat. We durdled for a turn or two until I landed Kokusho...he then topped an Emrakul, and hit me with it. I sacced all 6 of my lands and went to 5, and then proceeded to kill him with Kokusho. Weird. Games 2 and 3 he just raped me as he's supposed to.

Round three was vs CB:Thopter...he had Cb/Top online, and then I had Sun Titan, and then he had an Ensnaring Bridge, and then I had a Pernicious Deed and a Master of the Wild Hunt. It was over pretty quick from there. Game two I Surgical'd his Sword of the Meek, and then Memoricided Jace TMS. GG.

Round four was Canadian Thresh (no Mongoose...saw Delver, Goyf, Lavamancer). Game one he had an aggro hand with Goyf and Lavamancer, accompanied by a daze or two and a bolt. I got something dazed early and then proceeded to resolve Moat. We sat there for a while...I attempted to hardcast Debtors' Knell, which sucked the Force of Will out of his hand and allowed me to resolve Yosei the next turn. I hit a few times, then he eventually found a Bolt and Bolt/Lava'd Yosei. Then I tapped him out and resolved Recurring Nightmare, and the game ended. Game two he had the Delver-go-then-counter-everything-you-do hand, which was annoying. Game three was a grinder...it lasted probably 20 turns at least...he was pinging away with a Lavamancer and sixty bazillion counterspells while I had both of my Kitchen Finks to undo his Lavamancer. Unfortunately I failed to draw anything at all relevant besides the Finks, and eventually died to a 6/7 Goyf.

Round five: reanimator. Why the hell not. I knew he was on the deck from watching one of my car play against him earlier, so I blind called Exhume on a turn one Therapy and got lucky, hitting two of them. That slowed him down enough that I managed to Rector in the Knell, which then sufficiently scared him that he had to wait several more turns to actually get a dude online -- he couldn't just Careful Study and hope to hit business/discard a dude, because then I would reanimate it instead. Sun Titan happened shortly thereafter, bringing back land after land, to go with the Deed I had on the table, just in case. Eventually he dropped a Jin, which I swung into with Explorer/Titan. He blocked the Explorer, and then I proceeded to drop Garruk and shoot it for the other 3 damage to kill Jin. He tried to go balls-deep at that point, but it was too late and I killed him. Game 2 saw him god-hand me, and game 3 I kept a shaky hand off a mull that had a land, a Top, and a pair of Therapies. I bricked my first Therapy, took a reanimation spell with the second, and then failed to draw an answer before he found a second reanimation spell.

So yeah -- being on life-tilt didn't help at all, and neither did running into both of the deck's bad matchups. To be fair, Reanimator was frelling everywhere yesterday for some reason. As for the deck -- it did stuff. I can't really complain about anything at this point. I tested out switching the maindeck Finks for an Elspeth (K-E)...it did really good work for me and definitely earned its place in the deck. Locally I might still run the Finks, since I've got two local burn decks in my meta, but for any bigger event, Elspeth is better in that slot for sure. Memoricide is amazing, and watching Bryant Cook wince as I resolved it against the PiF player round one was hilarious. I took out the pair of Krosan Grips from my sideboard for this event, and put in a 2nd Leyline of Sanctity and the Faith's Fetters instead. The 2nd Leyline I had no problem with, and I didn't miss the Grips once all day. Fetters didn't cut it for me -- when I boarded it in (SneakyShow, for example), it got Echoing Truth'd anyway. Might make that slot the 3rd Finks, or if I can find a bullet that could help against Reanimator/Emrakul, that might be useful too. I've considered things like the Abyss, Leyline of the Void, and Ground Seal -- but Seal hurts me as much as it protects me from Surgical (not that I had a problem with this all day anyway) and annoys Reanimator, Leyline does nothing to Show and Tell, and is usually expected anyway, and the Abyss does nothing to Sneak Attack or the artifact reanimator targets. I'm pretty sure that I just have to concede that those are bad matchups and focus on improving other things, like the various Thresh decks -- perhaps City of Solitude should find its way back into that spot.

[Fjedsen]

So here is my report from the weekend.

It was a small tournament with 13 people and I played pretty much the same list I posted earlier (Only change: -2 Diabolic Edict, +2 Choke; Because I expected more blue-control decks than NO, Show and Tell, ...).

Decks that were played: Merfolk, BUG Counterbalance, Smallpox, UW Stoneblade, The Rock, 2x Candian Thresh or RUG Tempo, Goblins, 5cLastStand.dec, GW Maverick, Manaless Dredge, BW Discard and the last deck I don't remember.

Round 1 - 5cLastStand.dec
Game 1: I was a bit confused by his manabase: He played 1st turn Foothills, 2nd turn Tropical Island, 3rd Turn Plains.
My start wasn't that fast. As I remember it correctly I got Veteran on turn 1 and Therapy on turn 3. I see: Etched Oracle, Eternal Witness, Evasive Action, Last Stand. I flashback Therapy on Witness.
On the following turns there is some ramp action. I play some creatures. He has Deed. He uses Last Stand. I have Deed. And so one.
2 min before turns I have an Thrun, Deed and Top on the board and him on 12 or 13 life. He uses Last Stand to drop me to 5 life. Then fires of Tribal Flames for 5. I use top in response and find a Swords to Plowshares. I use StP to gain some life of my last troll. But he plays another Last Stand with 3 Swamps in play.

SB: -4 StP, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Duress

Game 2: Nothing special. Neither him or me can win on extra turns.

0-1

Round 2 - Goblins
Game 1: I know what my opponent plays. I kept a shaky hand with Thrun, Deed, Finks and 4 land. He has a very fast Start with Lackey into Goblin Chieftain + Piledriver. Followed by Warren Instigator. I am one turn to slow and so I die to the horde.

SB: Nothing

Game 2: I start with Therapy on Lackey. I rip 2 Lackey and see a hand of Vial, Warchief, Warchief, Siege-Gang, Land, Land. He plays Vial. I have another Therapy for the Warchiefs and follow this with a Zenith for Explorer to get rid of Siege-Gang. He scoops in response.

Game 3: He has the classy "Land, Vial, Go" start. I have the classy "Land, Explorer" into "Therapy + Flashback" start. Overall his hand was pretty slow and I stabilize with Swords + Witness (getting Swords back). I trade with his dudes and a Zenith for Loxodon Hierarch helps me to hold his forces at bay. A late Sun Titan -> Witness -> Sword seals the deal.

1-1

Round 3: Smallpox
Game 1: He gets me cold with T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Smallpox (him discarding Bloodghast), T3 Confi and T4 Liliana of the Veil.
I can't do very much about it because I am heavily mana screwed with 2 lands and 3 mana spells.

SB: Nothing

Game 2: I have double Veteran which pretty much denies his Smallpox. I win by beating him with witness and Kitchen Finks. This time he can't do much about it because he is screwed on 1 land.

Game 3: This time we play a real game with no screws ;) He thoughtseizes me seeing a Pulse, Deed, Finks, Recurring Nightmare and 3 lands. He choses deed. I topdeck like a boss and cast an Explorer. He casts a Bloodghast. Explorer helps me to power out the Finks and I use a small Recurring Lock with Finks+Explorer to get life and lands. Meanwhile he has Confi on the field which helps me to race his Bloodghast with my Kitchen Finks. He adds a Jitte to his board and get in with a Ghast+Jitte. He kills he Finks. I find Zenith and tutor up a Spike Weaver which denies his Jitte.
Confi helps me further more to keep him under pressure and after he leaves Confi+Jitte back to protect his life total (at this point: 5 life) I topdeck Swords and remove the Confi and got in for total 4 dmg. He scoops after not finding a solution.

2-1

Round 4: UW Stoneblade (I don't remember this one exactly)
Game 1: I loose to a "nut" draw. He has full control of the board with Jace, Stoneforge + Sword of Feast and Famine and Counter/Carddraw

SB: -1 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Kitchen Finks (I guess), +2 Choke

Game 2: I start with Explorer and T2 Therapy for FoW. After the path is free I resolve T2 Choke. Choke holds him at bay and I am able to beat him down with Finks and Witness. He concedes to Thrun.

Game 3: This game goes back and forth and we can't finish it in turns. We play it to an end for fun and he wins on the 9th extra turn.

2-1-1

So ... thats all. I am pretty happy with the performance of the deck. Every single card was great. Except the titans ... because they didn't show up often to do cool things ;).
Perhaps I am cutting 2 Tops + X to try out 3 Hymn to Tourach.