Junk/AggroDirt

[lavafrogg]

Well I am writing this to at least get a different view on this pile of cardboard as an individual deck with its own set of goals and desires. I have posted my lists and modifications on the list for years and have in general just been the bastardization of a few decks, namely rock and loam….

I ensure that the deck has humbler roots from when I actually played and designed decks on a local level. I have played legacy since the split and have always been the guy that could beat the Arizona pro’s in this format. When life from the loam came out I was mesmerized by its power but not impressed with its speed.

While people were playing CAL, I was using the dredge mechanic to enable my creatures, namely through threshold, and cycle lands to recur loam and darkblast the required number of times. My deck even ran witness to get back any goodies that were dredged away and vinelasher kudzu to grow off of the fetchlands that I was recurring.

With my hectic life I believe I played the deck once and top 8’d my first ever PTQ. Here is the top 8’ing list that I ran:

B/G Aggro

Creature [20]
4 Eternal Witness
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Werebear
4 Withered Wretch

Sorcery [11]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
3 Life from the Loam

Instant [7]
3 Darkblast
4 Putrefy

Land [22]
2 Barren Moor
3 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Cranial Extraction
4 Naturalize
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother

This deck was made at the time that Aggro rock was which was a dark confidant and troll ascetic fueled equipment deck that beat face with the best of them. I quickly realized that Dark Confidant is the most ridiculous card ever printed and added them to my list.

I imagine I would have kept changing my list until it replicated popular B/G Eva green style decks but the card that held my attention for so long was the green ancestral recall: life from the loam.

As my life moved me across the country and back again, and the attention of the opposite sex kept the majority of me busy, I would always stare at my box of cards and wish I lived closer to a legacy hub. West coast legacy was barely a trickle and when I moved to Florida, other than Finn, the game was regulated to small weekly tournaments.

Eventually I took the loams out of lists and formed a basic UGb thresh list and I experimented with all the colors of thresh I would always come back to that loam card and how it was near unstoppable and uber slick. I eventually followed the popular trend and ran the intuition loam control lists that were the craze for the longest time. Bardo was the man with the plan and his lists brought the power of loam into the spotlight once again.

I strayed away from the counter based lists and moved straight to Aggro loam and its brethren. The deck was able to ape smash anything that attacked for the win, destroyed mana bases like none other and used burning wish like few decks I have ever witnessed before.

There was one other problem with the deck…. Aggro loam had a horrible combo matchup due to the amount of dead cards and lack of disruption. The deck also had a hell of a time with counterbalance based strategies once the lists started playing cards that had a CMC of three in them. With these two decks in my sights I began switching cards in and out at weekly legacy tourneys and on Magic Workstation.

To deal with counter balances I included the versatile engineered explosives and the ridiculously mana costing tombstalker (which doubled as anti-graveyard hate) and to help against the combo I brought in the fan favorite hymn to tourach and his new friend thoughtseize. This combination practically blanked combo (ee for tokens) and had great matchups across the board due to the acceleration of mox diamond and the late game of the loam itself. This list ran the gauntlet for many years without changing a card, also due to my lack of play…)

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
SB: 2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

And unfortunately that’s where the deck sat for years without any play by me, stupid me, and any input from forums other than “PLAY BETTER CARDS”, I was not able to develop the deck at all… welcome to frown town population: me.

But due to an active choice by me to make MTG my favorite hobby I have decided to post the list on its own and develop the GBw Loam lists as itself…. For all future reference I will be calling this deck Junk as Loam itself has degraded to a Junk card and so much awesome is just thrown in, much like the first PT Junk decks.

After my “optimistic” finish at the recent MtGDeals Grand Opening Mox tourney (where two punts cost me 5-1) and some brief discussion in the various rock/aggro loam/tourney report forums. I have changed the list after what seemed like eternities or stagnation and here is the list I am playing now:

Lands 23
3 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire (should be G/B fetch)
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Creatures 14
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Artifacts 7
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mox Diamond

Instants 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries 12
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Life from the Loam

Card Discussion:
Terravore: Could arguably be Knight of the Reliquary and I am not sure which I would prefer in most cases. With the Loam engine I feel that Terravore is less cutesy and more I want to eat your face. With life from the loam he can grow enormous even in the early turns of the game. The trample ensures that he is heavily blocked and often will wipe the board as the opponent looks for removal. You do lose the land toolbox, which would require a complete rework of the mana base, and I imagine what would be the end of the 7-8 cycle lands lists.

7-8 cycle lands: Compared to many blue-based decks, which runs ponder and brainstorms to smooth out their draws, this is the loam decks equivalent. Once the board has 3-4 lands all others can be cycled to see more business or pitched to mox to protect you mana stability. Not to say that this deck doesn’t want more lands but the cycling lands are the cantrips and the draw engine of the deck and I want to see them often.

Mox Diamond: Greedy, greedy, greedy…and I love and support it. Turn one goyf, dark confidant, hymn, mystic and god knows what else are possible due to the diamonds. They allow you to turn early cycle lands into land drops while keeping them accessible for later. Play through blood moon effects with basics and diamonds. This is also how you get ahead while wastelanding someone to death.

Stoneforge Mystic: The newest addition to the deck, this card is the buzz around the water cooler right now. I removed tombstalker, finally, due to the CMC issue and I feel like I will never go back. Batterskull must be answered early and will be back in the later game if now taken care of properly. Any of my monsters with any equipment on it spells gg any way you look at it. This 2cc card is another must answer for decks and with the added removal of jitte/sword I have removed the EE that have held their spots for so long.

The decks mana curve: The deck tops out at three and has a great number of cards in the two CC range. With the fall of counterbalance this is not an issue and the deck will always have ways to spend the vast amounts of mana that it will generate. If counterbalance comes back into the metagame than other cards will be looked at to battle the horrible blue enchantment. (Thank you metagame for keeping down counterbalance, specifically the SDErock lists that are tearing up around the country)

Lack of Card discussion:
Knight of the Reliquary: Ok I get it, you are going to nuke my graveyard once and then get a maze of ith that will promptly get wastelanded. Cute but I feel that for right now the card is just not strong enough and belongs in the “toolbox type” rock/bant lists that need the one time effects.

Sensei’s Divining Top: Top has amazing synergy with life from the loam and if I were to play them I would remove the mox diamonds and settle in for the long haul of card selection over speed…Unfortunately I have no interest in that type of game. While you are paying one to see the top cards of your library I plan on either playing threats that must be answered or spending my free mana to outdraw the shit out of you with my loam engine, insert wasteland the shit out of you here as well.

Other Removal: Unless I am playing true aggro loam, my creatures should be the biggest on the board. God forbid that a Terravore picks up a Batterskull and starts swinging for 15+. I do not need the removal, my opponents do. Get a creature past the hymns/thoughtseize/swords wall and let them then deal with a Tarmogoyf with a jitte and we will discuss more removal.

Side Board options:
I will not let my recent run in with elves demands 4 perish but I will also not fault myself for running them, lol.

I have always been a fan of the enlightened tutor board, as it allows me to tutors and cycle a bullet into my hand on the same turn. Also for some reason in random metagame I love the oddball 4x Gerard’s verdict to help keep my life total high against burn and my opponents hand empty. The deck has its biggest problems against super fast draws where it cannot get established…. So here is my suggested sideboard for this primers purpose:


3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonists
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Gaddok Teeg
3 Krosan Grip

This allows a wide range of hate while only being super vulnerable to a resolved natural order (it has to resolve though).

Matchups:
Ah the section where most deck primers fall through horribly, I hope I do better than most.

Merfolk: Might as well start off with the current king of legacy, but should be on a decline due to the rise of huge dudes and removal strategies that are floating around. Mental misstep will most likely be pitched to a force of will on something scary. Keep your swords as long as you can and wasteland anything that even thinks about animating. Get a fast hand with a mox and a hymn and the match will be easier than you think. Unless they reach a critical mass you will always have the bigger dudes and as they will have a hard time dealing with active equipment this should be your main goal. An early Batterskull can just take you to victory…but this isn’t the top deck in the format for no reason, you can just lose as easily as you can win avoid wasteland instigated mana screw and you should be very much in the game at all times.

GWx Goodstuff: These decks are now a dime a dozen, everyone has their own color combination but you really only card about one thing, do they run loam or not? Keep their mana bases in check, only 2-3 basics, and they will not be able to do ridiculous things to you. Save swords for Knights and you will always have the beefiest dudes (seems like a pattern). Keep your loams safe from bog and always be able to recover. They have very few answers to a large Terravore or a goyf wearing anything. If the game goes long bury them in card quantity and let them have all the selection that they want. Oh yeah, hymn them early and win the easy way they have very little card advantage outside of some lists with mystics.

Team America: As long as a deck is non-basic land heavy you will have a solid shot. If you can set up a solid mana base while destroying theirs without anything-horrible happening then you are golden. Jace should never come down in this matchup and your biggest fear should be tombstalker over the top while goyfs stare at each other. This is also a very winnable matchup and one that I am not happy to see but happy to play. Loam for the win, 2 basics max.

Zoo: Ahh, the quick aggro match. Very losable even with good hands, I would look for a mox heavy hand for the added speed and would also side out loams for anything relevant for games 2/3. Stay at a healthy life total and play around price of progress, get an active jitte/Batterskull and the game is most likely yours. This is a good deck for a reason and can knock you onto your ass if it gets the right draw.

Painter: With the painter lists so varied there is only a basic strategy to play against all of them. Rip combo pieces out of their hands, save swords for painters and get a jitte on the board with counters on it. Sword the painter if you can and watch out for a face melting blood moon; this is a scary matchup but far from not winnable.

Goblins: See fast aggro but possibly worse due to sheer numbers, get something large and attacking early in the game, preferably with a jitte to lock down the board. Not a deck you want to see in a dark alley. Goyf, equipment, removal all MVP’s

Combo: You most likely have the best combo matchup of all of the loam lists with the discard and huge dudes, gain life if you can but a confidant on the board will help you chain discard hem out of the game. After the board, bring in canonist and teegs and hate bear them out of the game.

Multicolor blue based control: HORRAAAYYY, an awesome matchup, game one will be yours due to the sheer power of loam/wasteland. Jace will never hit the board and they will have the saddest face a panda could ever have. If they have no answer to loam in game two, it will be remarkably similar. Bring in teegs to keep them in check and try and protect a dark confidant. Try and use a loam for its draw three ability but do not let yourself get face fucked by graveyard removal. Still an awesome matchup after board and this is the deck you want to play every match. P.S break every standstill with a life from the loam. If they play loam that just shows you how hard they will eat it to wasteland and wasteland them for the next 30 turns while you play off of 2 mana plus moxes and they do not.

Mono Colored Control: Boo, take all of the fun out of the control matchup. The better part of this matchup is that all of your creatures must be dealt with or they will just die. Use loams to draw cards but only if you cant get a confidant or sword to stick. Eventually you will outdraw them or out attrition them with a Batterskull. The Uw standstill lists fall in this category, mental misstep just doesn’t do anything and Batterskull will have free reign of the board. After game one bring in teegs and laugh.

These are all the matchups I have tested since my return to magic, I hope this was at least marginally entertaining and that Junk can finally step into the light as its own deck.

[Antonius]

23 lands and 4 mox diamond? 7 of your lands come into play tapped? this list is straight greed. Play a bunch more games and I can almost guarantee you'll end up being unhappy with that mana base. You'll get openers with two moxes and no lands, or one land and two moxes or one land that taps for mana one cycler, drop the the land, cycle into a three drop and just not go anywhere. You need to add 3-4 lands.

Lastly, I would play vindicates and pulses before I played any maindeck discard. Vindicate allows you to destroy their only basic after you've been going to town on their duals with wasteland and loam. What will thoughtseize or hymn allow you to do in that situation? Make them discard some spells they can't cast anyways? Or what about when you draw thoughtseize/hymn late, when they have no hand? Loam decks tend to play games for longer than Junk or Team America/Bob and unless you're up against combo, discard tends to lose its value the longer the game goes. And combo is such a small part of the meta that I wouldn't sculpt my main deck around having a good game against them anyways.

[lavafrogg]

23 lands with a maximum converted mana cost of 3 is not a bad deal in my opinion. The mox diamonds are the reason you can play 7 cycle lands and not feel a thing.

The 24th land was just cut due to testing to add the 4th life from the loam and the 8th cycle land was cut for the 4th wasteland. Not to bash or anything but I have played this deck for quite some time and am quite happy with the mana base and took away a land due to mana flooding and wanting to fit in another business spell.

For your other points loam decks also draw more cards than any other deck which means they will see more discard throughout the game, early mid and late. When your opponent is sandbagging removal you will be happy with the discard in your hand to let your creature get through for the win. With all of the control in the meta right now getting your opponent to play off the top as early as possible is good for everyone. I did say that faster decks are the problem match ups, extra removal would help against the faster decks but weaken other match ups.

Your really just bashing discard in situations where it is bad i.e. when they are in top deck mode, the same can be said for any card for example, counters a turn after a bomb had resolved or a dark confidant when you are low on life. We play these cards because they are strong in their own right.

I am prefer proactive discard versus reactive counters in a loam deck unless the loam is a one of and only rarely useful. I will continue testing with the current land count and if I have issues I will revert to the 24th land.

On the removal front, the mana denial aspect of vindicate is useful but not game breaking, holding them to only basics is a very good idea to me seeing how many decks only fun 2-3 basics. I removed 4 engineered explosives when I added the stoneforge package of sword and jitte, active equipment have been handling creatures with the discard/swords taking care of anything larger. The SoFI has been wonderful in that regard.

[lavafrogg]

23 lands with a maximum converted mana cost of 3 is not a bad deal in my opinion. The mox diamonds are the reason you can play 7 cycle lands and not feel a thing.

The 24th land was just cut due to testing to add the 4th life from the loam and the 8th cycle land was cut for the 4th wasteland. Not to bash or anything but I have played this deck for quite some time and am quite happy with the mana base and took away a land due to mana flooding and wanting to fit in another business spell.

For your other points loam decks also draw more cards than any other non combo deck which means they will see more discard throughout the game, early mid and late. When your opponent is sandbagging removal you will be happy with the discard in your hand to let your creature get through for the win. With all of the control in the meta right now getting your opponent to play off the top as early as possible is good for everyone. I did say that faster decks are the problem match ups, extra removal would help against the faster decks but weaken other match ups.

Your really just bashing discard in situations where it is bad i.e. when they are in top deck mode, the same can be said for any card for example, counters a turn after a bomb had resolved or a dark confidant when you are low on life. We play these cards because they are strong in their own right.

I am prefer proactive discard versus reactive counters in a loam deck unless the loam is a one of and only rarely useful. I will continue testing with the current land count and if I have issues I will revert to the 24th land.

On the removal front, the mana denial aspect of vindicate is useful but not game breaking, holding them to only basics is a very good idea to me seeing how many decks only fun 2-3 basics. I removed 4 engineered explosives when I added the stoneforge package of sword and jitte, active equipment have been handling creatures with the discard/swords taking care of anything larger. The SoFI has been wonderful in that regard.

[Ahdam]

How does this list belong in the established forums? one person playing it to my knowledge with no appearances on any official (Wotc SCG) tournies or top 16's.

Not saying its a bad deck tho, just seems unfinished and unproven in any official capacity.

This belongs in the new constructed forums first. I could see it in Established after some multiple tourny disscussions and more peeps tweeking it. Just not here right off the bat.

[lavafrogg]

Here is a tourney report for this weekend. Could have went 5-1 but I am a little rusty.

Take the good with the bad i guess.... I just went 3-2-1 at the southern california mox emerald tourney toady using my loam-tombstalker build.

// Lands
4 [ON] Barren Moor
3 [R] Bayou
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Savannah
1 [b] Scrubland
1 [8E] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [OD] Terravore
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [b] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vindicate
3 Runed Halo

I couldn't have been happier with the main deck but I feel that the fourth wasteland should be there somewhere. The sideboard was made when I saw the metagame at the event and also performed well.

I forgot to write down names but here is a brief report:
Round One(U/B Dark Depths)
Game One: I lead with a thoughtseize and a hymn and quickly follow that up with a terravore to apply some of the beats. He plays a dark confidant which is swords'd and a Jace which is irrelevant. I have no idea what is going on but get the easy win.
Game Two: Seeing how I put him on U/B control I sided in Gaddock Teegs for explosives, I thoughtseized him seeing the hexmage and by then it was too late and a 20/20 came to my side of the table to say hello.
Game Three: I keep a solid hand with two fast tombstalkers and a swords and he mulligans to five. On his turn two he combos off and meets the swords, on turn three he does it again. FML. 0-1

Round Two(Storm Combo)
Game One: He eats a double hymn and is never actually in the game, I am able to waste the two duals he plays and tarmogoyf/bob swing for the win.
Game Two: Turn One Gaddock Teeg turn two runed halo on tendrils....gg?

Round Three(Combo Elves)
Game One: I draw and play four thoughtseize this game, those remove a priest of titania, two natural orders and a perfect. That coupled with a swords and two goyf ended this game quickly.
Game Two: I keep a hand with swords and teeg and he keeps a fast natural order. With teeg in play he amasses an army of a perfect, two tokens and two other elf lords... I play and blow a EE for three and attack with the team to clear his board; he scoops the next turn.

Round Four(SDERock)
Game One: We trade some early disruption until wasteland/loam come online he is topping for mana sources while an untimely hymn empties his hand. A 13/13 terravore comes down to end the game very quickly.
Game Two: This game is similar to the first until I make my mistake of the day, which leads to this draw, with a knight in play I attacked with a huge terravore. For some reason I forgot bog existed and power cycled(no loams after siding) to ensure the vore would survive combat(I had the wasteland up for the maze). When he fetched the bog I face palmed and tried to salvage the game but he wound up top-shuffle-top for removal to seal the deal.
Game Three: This game was a beating with me drawing mass removal up the ass and trading 1-1 with deeds and explosives to run him out of gas. By the time I drew a threat to kill him, I had a tombstalker that was swords'd, the game was on turns and the vore could only do so much.

Round Five(G/W/u Mystic)
Game one:This game one went the way of so many game ones before it, with some wastelands being followed up by terravore and double tombstalker to seal the deal.
Game Two: In a role reversal my opponent plays turn one zenith for zero, turn two knight, turn three knight-fetch wasteland-wasteland me. Attack for 10......gg?
Game Three: I have answers for my opponents threats and he is color screwed, slightly wasteland induced, with a game breaking sower of temptation in hand.

Round Six(Elves...again)
Apparently elves believe in Karma because I got blown out these two games.
Game one: Turn 3 progenitus.
Game Two: Mulligan to five and I got the pleasure of watching my opponent draw a bunch of cards and play a bunch of elves...guess it wasn't meant to be.

All in all I had a great time and considering my lack of sleep and lack of competitive magic in the last three years I couldn't have been prouder of my performance. The store was great though i did feel for the 13 or so people that couldn't play due to table space. Thank you to all of the great people I talked to, traded and got to play today.

sdematt: your decklist is defiantly spreading and was played by quite a few people today across the room. I believe the junk list that top 8'd was your list and I have no idea what the aggro loam deck was.

my sideboard: perish for sure needs to go in the board as I saw green creatures left and right.

stoneforge mystic: this card was also everywhere and might actually be the real deal. Between the batterskull interaction and just fetching swords/jittes and attacking, the card is a very large threat when it is on the board and almost demands respect.

[lavafrogg]

double post

[lorddotm]

loam decks also draw more cards than any other deck

Have you ever read these cards: Ad Nauseam or Time Spiral

No way Loam draws more cards than either of them.

Before you shoot down Tony, be aware he won the tournament that you didn't Top 8 at. He has been playing with Loam for years. I would listen to him.

The points he brings up are extremely valid. Loam decks are not exactly balls to the walls kind of decks, in fact, most games are grind 'em out kind of games.

Basically what we are trying to say is that you have two conflicting strategies. One is to knock out their hands and win as fast as possible, but you dilute that with 7 CIPT lands and Loam. This is not one of those cases of you having a back up, but rather one of those cases of your strategies being very conflicting.

Having a good Storm match up is about as relevant as having a good Canadian Thresh match up. It isn't.

No way this deck should be in this section, but whatever.

[lavafrogg]

Ooh ooh this is fun, if you need to move this to N+D then that is fine by me. I am not knocking Tony or anything about him. He won a mox and I obviously didn't I never questioned his judgements or his play style.

I am trying to spark interest in this specific style of play, last time i checked innovation and different views drive the metagame and the format that we play. A deck that tries put the pressure on as fast as possible and then lets a loam engine kick in would be an innovation and one that I am trying to develop.

Just to not feed the trolls I will not respond to anymore "this is the way it is talk", I am testing and attempting to play in as many events as I can but due to this thing I call my life and my setting which is legacy less arizona, hopefully not for long though, I cannot provide regular and constant reports/results.

[lorddotm]

Ooh ooh this is fun, if you need to move this to N+D then that is fine by me. I am not knocking Tony or anything about him. He won a mox and I obviously didn't I never questioned his judgements or his play style.

I am trying to spark interest in this specific style of play, last time i checked innovation and different views drive the metagame and the format that we play. A deck that tries put the pressure on as fast as possible and then lets a loam engine kick in would be an innovation and one that I am trying to develop.

Just to not feed the trolls I will not respond to anymore "this is the way it is talk", I am testing and attempting to play in as many events as I can but due to this thing I call my life and my setting which is legacy less arizona, hopefully not for long though, I cannot provide regular and constant reports/results.

That's fine, I just don't think that having discard is the way you want to go about it.

"Never, ever play a bad something else." —Michael Flores, The Prime Directive

And I think this is just a bad Junk deck or a bad GBR Aggro Loam deck. Your job is to prove why it isn't. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but that is what you are fighting against when you are fighting against established ideas.

[lavafrogg]

Still fun!

On the mana base issues, non life from the decks can and have ran up to non basic/duals/wastes, the new Maverick lists have mana issues all of their own when they draw the knight tutor-able bullets. Between maze, bog, karakas, arbor, cradle and step they have a huge list of non opening hand friendly land add to that wastelands and canopies and a stable green white mana base can have issues all of its own. All of my Citpt lands add mana that I can use on the following turn, let alone be discarded to mox diamond or cycled which is obvious. The mox diamonds are color/land fixers that double as acceleration, last but not least they pump goyfs if the situation calls for it.

The problem with calling this GBw Aggro Loam that when you cut the red from the deck you lose the "Aggro" feel to the deck. Dropping red forces the deck to loosen its chokehold on board control in lieu of other options. I feel that replacing the discard with 8 "control" spells would just be slowing the deck down further than necessary. Without the seismic assault "i win" button the deck has to explore other avenues of victory. Using hymn to torach and thoughtseize the deck can jump out in front of its opposition, god forbid wasteland/mox diamond come into play, and enter the mid-game in an unlosable situation. Anyone who has played against eva green or dead-guy know the power of getting your hand torn apart and then wastelanded while you stare down goyf/bob. These plays are equally good against aggro as they are against control and combo(can let me know the time they opened a game and resolved double hymn and lost?).

Finally, there are very few times when the deck just wants to loam and loam away, I have found myself casting loam once every few turns on a regular basis. Once you have cycled your hand full of goodies(and obviously your opponent has an empty hand due to the fact that you have been ripping late game discard), you are free to play anything you draw to continue to apply the beats. The cycle lands are used very much like cantrips in threshold lists, they are meant to allow the deck to play "more" business and have less dead draws as the game progresses.

I am going to bed and will continue to defend these choices and also continue to accept feedback.

[sdematt]

I'm mentioned several times, I approve. I'll start working on a decklist. As well, some guy came in 64th at GP Providence playing BG Loam.

-Matt

[Finn]

I have never played Lavafrogg's new list. But I played against the old one many, many times. Let me tell you some things about it from an opponent's point of view, so that we can get past these issues.

Mana problems: I have played Death And Taxes against this deck a number of times. In case you don't know, D+T has a robust land denial strategy, and I never felt like I had the upper hand using this strategy. Mox Diamond makes all the difference here. It clears up most of the issues concerning mana base that you would otherwise have to deal with. Even with Flickerwisp, which is a beating on Mox Diamond, I would still not say that his 22 (it was 22 then) lands were insufficient.

With that said, he did occasionally have issues of his own making. But no more than the kinds that Goblins has - and not changed for the past six years or so. One more thing: Anthony, I always felt that you had more cycle lands than you needed.

More later. I am at work.

[lavafrogg]

Matt- your mentioned because your awesome and your rock list is ridiculous!!

Finn- your amazing, I remember you hating that I played dodge the tombstalker with my confidants:/ I'm guessing I need to cut 2 cycle lands and add two more real lands, done and done!

so...

-1 tranquil thicket
-1 barren more
+1 windswept heath
+1 savannah

seeing how I am having trouble with fast aggro/tribal, I am trying out infest as a 4 of to go along with the enlightened tutor board and also serenity to win the equipment battles(and to hose affinity/enchantress)

I love progress!

[lavafrogg]

OMG another post by lavafrogg!!! I hope this doesn't get merged with rock but is probably should, or at least dropped to N+D due to the fact that I'm the only one that plays it :)

Butttttt...... In my attempt play more magic the gathering I have officially attended my second tournament in a month.....or four-ish years, whatever comes first, and posted a modest 2-1-1 or 2-2 due to scoop/tiebreaker negotiations.
I had a blast playing today and got to witness many of arizona's finest players slinging spells for a play-set of force of wills!

16 people showed up and I had the privilege of playing the same decks in every single round, hurray for me.... Luckily it was not a blow out match-up but still one that I am now aware that I am not too fond of.

Round One...B/W Dead-guy
Game One: In a very jovial fashion my opponent proceeded to show me what happens when you draw four tide-hollow scullers and three thoughtseize in the same game. With most of my hand under 2/2 dorks I was regretting removing the EE's that had been in the deck for so long. He has mainboard jotun grunts which help seal the deal.
Game Two: In what would become fashion for the day I had approximately 10 or so turns to draw a life from the loam in order to win the game. I have a turn 2 tarmogoyf perished away and I never get a creature to stick(or be drawn) for the rest of the game. A equipment wearing jotun grunt pisses on my head as I try to figure out why I cant draw any relevant cards. P.S. I open with a wasteland this game and see no non-nasics the whole game.

0-1

Game Two...B/W Dead-guy
Game One: In what I quickly learn is the same match-up I tear through my opponent, who is stuck at two lands, to the point where I let him hit a life from the loam with a jotun grunt, main board again, just to save the 3 cycle lands for CA. The loam engine kicked in early and provided all the gas I needed to overcome the big Mongoloid.
Game Two: In what would continue to be the theme of the day I open with a wasteland and see only basics for the entire game. He plays some tide hollow scullers to take a sword of Fire and Ice, a terravore and a life from the loam(great) and eventually lands a grunt and an Elspeth. I double infest to clear the board and regain my hand, I play a terravore to kill the Elspeth and some hymns to clear his hand. As time approaches I get double terravore(which are huge) and on the last turn of turns I can only do 20 damage to him, he was at 27 due to batterskull.
1-1

mindless note: I parked in fron of the store and was feeding the meter every 80 minutes(the max). My alarm went off to re feed the meter at the start of turns...at the end of the match I went to my car to find Judy Justice giving me a 29 dollar parking ticket....at least it meant I didn't have to waste quarters anymore.

Game Three Some guy dropped
2-1

Game Four B/W Dead guy
Game One: In correct fashion I thoughtseize my opponent to remove his only business spell, a dark confidant, and he rips a phyrexian obliterator to double ritual into on turn two. I have a great hand but no plows and start digging like a madman. When I finally peel the swords 6-7 turns later he, empty handed thanks to hymns, rips a cabal therapy with an active bitter blossom in play, tough luck. With out the sword I cannot overcome a batterskull wearing obliterator, that spend the majority of the game starting at a goyf.
Game Two: This game was fairly simple. I got a mystic on the board with a sword of feast and famine on it, this duo proceeded to empty his hand while the mana clause allowed me to loam to my hearts content to ensure the game never got out of hand.
Game Three: In what was probably one of the best games today I have to swords a germ token many times while my opponent keeps ripping removal off of the top. This was another game where a life from the loam would have won instantly but I never saw one. I saw one goyf that stayed on the board for sever turns until it was gate keepered away and extirpated, my opponent laughed because he drew it the turn before hoping to hit a loam that never came. On the last turn I could have played a batterskull to draw the game but neither of us were in the top 4 contention and a player that I enjoyed and lent a card to was rooting for the other guy to be able to get in to the money, I took my great games and scooped instead of being a douche and forcing the draw.

2-1-1 or 2-2

If any Arizona player read this I had a great time and will be back whenever my crazy work schedule allows me to, a chef never rests. About the deck, I played the list that was posted and modified in this thread and am feeling that I am missing something, the 4th loam needs to be in the list due to the amount of blowouts that it causes. I wish that I played more diverse decks but every deck today had main board jotun grunts and 2 color, few/no wasteland mana bases(all basics and fetches...seriously).

The infests were hypothetically great today in that if I ever drew one it would have been a beating, I saw few to none of my sideboard cards in any of these matches and overall had great hands that drew into horrible hands for the most of the day. This is the second tournament in a row where I have not faced a 3 color manabase to wasteland.

Thank you to all of my opponents as I had a great time and hope I at least provided some fun games.

[lavafrogg]

Lol, I love how I am the only person who every posts GBW loam lists on the source, actually not many people play loam on the source period(or in legacy for the most part). I am headed to some sort of tournament this weekend and after much deliberation with deck choice, damn you maverick for being so damn sexy, I believe that I am going to work on this loam deck again....call it pet deck syndrome at this point... and I am going to revert to a "standard" build by many peoples opinions and then go from there.

This is what I will be playing:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

4 Mox Diamond
3 Life from the Loam

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket

Seeing how this is what I am playing this week does anyone think that the SFM version that I played the last time is a better deck? The switch was -3 tombstalker -3 vindicate/EE +3 SFM +equipment(batterskull, jitte, sword). This allowed me to have some interaction with equipment and batterskull recursion but I lost the 5/5 flying beat stick that is tombstalker(and his 8cc mana cost for Bob). I also lost the EE slot which I felt was needed sometimes.

They both have their merits but seeing how i mainly get to play on cockatrice I'm not sure which is better.

On another tangent I have been considering going -4 hymn -1 terravore -3 tombstalker -1 goyf -1 bob -3 vindicate +3 GSZ +3 pridemages +3 Witnesses +2 oozes +1 BoP for some versatility/control options. But that is completely untested and sounds a bit strange... but it was just an idea;p.

[Finn]

I tried to make this in the Witness, Pridemage style and it never worked for me. Too dog slow. But I did have success with Entomb. Considering you have Volraths Stronghold, you may want to look into Entomb again. It gives you crazy control options like Ravens Crime, Fleshbag Marauder, Carrionette (heh), etc. Btw, Carrionette has a few hidden uses/features.

[lavafrogg]

Entomb is a slick idea, but i think it falls into a straight graveyard control deck that is really vulnerable to mass graveyard hate cards, in addition to the graveyard hate loam decks are already exposing themselves to. Did you find entomb any faster than non entomb lists? Entomb helps you find your answers but how does the deck get faster?

The GSZ version was created to have 9 ways to mana accelerate on the first turn to jump straight into loamy/witnessy goodness, with either a terravore ending the game or an ooze taking over and winning for you. After board you also get deed recursion(or hymns) and the super forgotten about sweeper infest(suck it weenie decks of all colors). The only thing i really miss from the GSZ version is the lack of vindicate to kill problem planeswakers. With pridemage and sword recursion an unanswered elspeth could easily spell good game.

p.s. this is the final list I am taking tomorrow:

25 lands
including
1 volrath's stronghold
4 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
5 cycle lands
3 basics

4 dark confidant
3 terravore
4 tarmogoyf
4 quasali pridemage

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 loam
4 swords
4 mox diamond

Wish me luck!

I audibled at the last minute to -1 loam +1 terravore. Good choice overall:)

[lavafrogg]

In the spirit of me being the only one who talks about my deck I will double post the shit out of this thread and post my tournament report from this past weekend!

Short Version:

Decklist:

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Quasali Pridemage
4x Terravore

Spells:
3x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares

Lands:
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Barren Moor
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Wasteland
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Nantuko Monastery

Sideboard:
1x Infest
1x EE
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Deathmark
1x Path to Exile
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Null Rod
1x Choke
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Batterskull
1x Spike Feeder
1x Extirpate

Record:3-2 Overall:7-5
Round One- Soul Sisters Win 2-1
Round Two- Burn Lose 0-2
Round Three- Bant Win 2-0
Round Four- Spring Tide Lose 1-2
Round Five- Merfolk Win 2-0

Final: 9th out of 19 players.

Long Version:
For anyone who has a non-standard work schedule, getting off normal "days off" can sometimes be a pain in the ass. I am a chef by trade and have been gifted with the opportunity to work, mostly, 9-5 hours with mondays and Saturdays off. Anyone who works in a restaurant, or the hospitality industry in general, can tell you that these are not normal chefs hours. While most are busy cooking/serving breakfast, lunch and dinner, I get to explore my passion for food by making fresh bacon's, sausages, stocks and sauces as my restaurants Chef Tournant/Chef de Partie.

Seeing as how the Tournament fell on Valentine's Day weekend, I was super bummed when my boss informed me that I needed to work on Saturday. We eventually struck a deal in which I worked from 6am to noon and would have to time to make the 20 minute drive to Rookies to Legends to play in the tournament.

I showed up at work at the required, early, hour and spent my morning overseeing my line cooks and competing the rest of my duties(as boring as it sounds I was roasting a whole berkshire ham over an open fire on our patio, and curing duck for confit) as efficiently as possible as to ensure that I would be able to leave on time.

To my surprise I was allowed to leave at noon and made it to the shop in time to sign up and purchase a Stoneforge Mystic and a Sword of Light and Shadow, to complete my Mystic/Equipment package. While waiting for the tourney to start I decided to Nassif my sideboard instead of picking the standard cards to bring in. This was mainly due to the massive draw power of my deck and the fact that I wanted so many cards in so many match ups(and I really wanted to play infest on someone).

As I listened to people talking about decks that would be playing that day I was comfortable with my board against everything except combo and burn(sort of foreshadowing), but I didn't want to devote a large portion of my sideboard to the match-ups that were already the hardest and I already had a solid combo plan(discard plus beaters?). I was happy with the versatility of my choices and figured that I would have plenty of time to change it before SCG Phoenix.

Round One:Mono White Soul Sisters
Game One: As my opponent lead off with a Martyr of Sands, I was actually relieved when I found out that he was playing an aggressive route instead of some proclamation/martyr garbage that would keep me attacking for half of my life(not that my deck needs help swinging for hefty amounts of damage).

Sadly for my opponent, he is not playing what I would consider a "real" deck and and well constructed tier deck should be able to handle a "fake" deck with no problem. Sadly for me, he happened to go up to 60-ish life and then started playing multiple 6/6 flying lifelike bitches that killed the shit out of me. I had several of my creatures O-ringed but had several Pridemages to hold down the fort until needed. I died before they were asked to make the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Game Two: This game starts off similar to the last game but double discard strips his hand of anything relevant very early in the game. I get a goyf on the board keeping his life total in the 20's and not above the dreaded 30 mark. As he starts to draw all gas, I finally decide to play the infest in my hand and leave him with nothing(something like a 6 for 1). The game is over shortly after.

Game Three: This game was over before it started, wastelands keep his mono-w deck off of 2 mana(he drew his 3 non-basics) for the majority of the game and as my creatures chewed away his life total, all of my sideboard cards made their way into my hand, deed/ee/infest/path/deathmark...GG

Round Two: Burn
Game One: Game one was the closer of the two games; I lead off with mox, land, loam into a terravore and a goyf. This was a fast enough start to get him to 1 life before he took me from 9 to zero in a single turn. I could have drawn any number of cards to win the game including: thoughtseize, hymn, another creature, pridemage(exalted) or swords to plowshares....I ended the game with 3 loams in my hand.... He did get to price of progress me for 4 on the turn I tapped my wasteland and my bayou to put a threat on the board, the wasteland was loamed back to kill the bayou if I was ever PoP later in the game....

Side-note: My opponent would have lost the game if I was loaming for lands instead of business by blocking a terravore instead of the goyf, I did not think he would make the wrong choice and needed to find some interaction. Blocking the vore took him to 1 instead of blocking the goyf and going to 5...

Game Two: This game could have been really interesting, I brought in all of my life gain cards to help prolong the game(not fearing vortex) and I was hoping discard could prolong the game enough for me to stabilize and get away with the victory. The sideboard card I drew....was Scavenging Ooze!!!!, this made things interesting because he should have held off waves of his "creatures" and gained my life as he ate them out of his graveyard. Once again though I drew no discard and the turn after he burned down the ooze, that did gain me a few life points, he cast flame rift, bolt, fire blast to seal the deal.

I dont think that burn is an unwinnable matchup and this match could have went a lot different if I drew any discard in our match, especially games 2+3. Game one could have went my way if I drew anything period.

I was a little sad that I lost so early in the tourney but new that I did the best that I could. Here is to more magic!

Round 3: Bant, featuring Stoneforge, Knight of the Reliquary and Jace!
Game One: My opponent wish each other good games and I immediately start off my mulliganing to 5...like a champion. My opening hand contained a wasteland, life from he loam and discard, what more could a girl ask for!
I am able to slow him down with discard as I grow a manabase and cycle cards into my hand, I nullify a stoneforge by thoughtseizing away the batterskull and proceed to go nom nom on his lands.

He is able to get an Elspeth out to my dismay and starts making 1/1 tokens to block my pridemage assault. As I was drawing disruption and not creatures, the Elspeth was starting to become a real threat. I am dredging as hard as I can to hit a terravore or my last swords to plowshares(one killed a knight, one killed an equipped indestructible token and the third was dredged...) He eventually has to blow the Elspeth the turn before I can start to damage it with double pridemage... This gives him a token, an SFM(jitte in hand) and three lands. I use pridemages sac ability to keep counters off of the jitte but still cannot find a vore to save my life(stronghold in play). As the game gets late he is still hurt on lands thanks to my earlier waste-landing and doesn't make any real plays.

Eventually I draw into terravores and 2 15/15 tramplers march over the large amount of jitte counters he had amassed, thank you trample.

Game Two: I felt that I had a really slick sideboard plan for these UWx decks(or most control decks at this moment in metagame) and that was to take out 1 for 1's and bring in cards that I can get advantages with over the long game. This meant bringing in eternal witness, ooze, more removal(knights can still kill me) and a batterskull.

The game starts out with me thoughtseizing him and taking a mystic, his only creature(I saw a snare and a jace), he drops the jitte in his hand and then spell snares the next spell I cast(I'm dumb). On turn three I thoughtseize away the jace and his face drops a little so i know it hurt. At this point nothing he did was really relevant. He played a dude and it was swords'd away, he played a Knight and I played the witness to get back the swords.

I finally get Loam going(I sided out 2) he rips his bog to nuke my yard but goyfs and pridemages don't much care for bogs.

Yes, at 2-1 I felt I had some momentum and was happy going into my next round.

Round 4: Spring Tide
I am quite a bit bitter about this match but that is how combo matches work out sometimes.
Game One: I draw massive amounts of discard but cannot get a clock on him...He goes off with 1 life and 2 cards in his hand...high tide and time spiral(3 lands in play).
Game Two: This time I have discard and a clock and I wreck his snap casters with a tormod's crypt on board. I win quickly.
Game Three: I have to mulligan to five with a turn one bob(not as bad as it could be) I then get a turn two bob and cycle a land to draw a hymn. He won on turn 3. Fuck Combo.

This is my tiny rant about how I don't like lower level combo players. Against high level combo players they have clear thought processes and do not stare at their cards for five minutes at a time just to cunning wish for a brain freeze. If you are going to play combo, please know your deck and just play. No one wants to sit and stare at you counting mana and spells to see if I should shuffle my cards up or not. I have lose to good storm players and it is almost surgical win or lose, losing to burn in my previous rounds was painless because I new that I was going to win or lose based on the strength of our draws, same concept against Spring Tide but his 4 minute turns compared to my 15 second turns killed me.

The more angering part was I did not have any real hate in any of my second two games...I didn't need any the second game and saw nothing relevant on the third game...

After losing I new I had a small chance of getting into the top 8 due to the tourney size and really wanted to avenge my draw in to the top 8 dreams being ruined by a dirty storm deck.

Round Five: Merfolk
I like to question the validity of Merfolk as a deck but apparently you can't tell that to Merfolk players who have found jesus in their new Corralhelm Commander, or somewhat new....I have no idea, and this guy was sure that if he beat me he would get into the top 8. He was so pumped that it made me want to beat him even more...just to break something pretty.

Game One:
He starts down the merfolk tempo beat down plan with an early vial. A hymn to tourach takes his one drop and a Lord of Atlantis and a pridemage eats his vial before anything can really come of it. My nantuko monastery holds off any small offensive that he can mount after it jumped out of my land "zone" and moved to intercept a lord earlier in the game. He eventually gathers an army of 3/3's and I counter with a swords to plowshares, a tarmogoyf and a very large terravore. In the deciding turn of the game I attack him within one alpha strike from death and he cannot find removal/merfolk to kill/tap my blockers and kill me.

Game Two:
This game was much more straightforward as I started with a tarmo wall that doubled as an abyss on offense and defense. My turn three loam is surgically removed from my deck and then my poor goyf is dismembered shortly after. A lone terravore starts going to town on his life total while hymns rip apart his hand. His army sadly gets deeded away and his mutavaults are wastelanded from the board before anything can come of them. As a crown has gathered(everyone who drew) he triumphantly rips a Relic of Progenitus and slams it on the table, as he nukes all graveyards my terravore ceases to exist and he cycles into Corralhelm and things look bleak for our junk playing superhero.... Wait, I simply played the path the exile in my hand and followed it up with a sandbagged goyf for the win.

I waited around to find out that I took ninth place and then I watched the guy who took 8th get demolished by the burn player(I could have had my revenge!!!), that match was deedstill vs burn. The other matches I watched were dredge vs high tide(high tide punted the games away and didn't even know it) goblins vs punishing maverick and stoneblade vs pox.

The maverick player saw zero copies of punishing fire and was overwhelmed by the little red men. The stoneblade player really had no chance against the pox player, from what I saw and really looked like a favorite to win the box.

Top four was dredge vs burn and goblins vs pox. I had to go due to the time so if anyone knows the results I would be happy to hear them.

About the Deck:
I was super happy about my card choices, pridemages were golden all day long. They neutered equipment, killed leylines, vials and oblivion rings. Awesome, awesome choice. For anyone keeping track, the pridemages are in the spot that has been held by tombstalker and a SFM package. They easily have earned a repeat visit in the deck.

I really want to find a way to experiment with a GSZ package to be able to get a Teeg against combo Witness against control or Feeder against burn. The "weakest" slots in my mind are Confidants and they serve a similar role in they find the cards that I need. I don't see myself ditching confidant but I do think that i will find a way to squeeze in a few witnesses into the main board. Maybe -1 vore -1 pridemage? The terravores were the MVP in that they were so much bigger than people expected them to be. I feel like I have really good game against any "fair" deck and need to refine my sideboard against the "nonfair" decks....

Thank you to any/all that read, I love all comments and if anyone in AZ wants to playtest for SCG Phoenix give me a shout!

[Ziveeman]

Hey man it was nice meeting you at the tournament. Burn beat Dredge and Pox beat Goblins in the Top 4 and Burn/Pox split the box, from what I was told.

If you're available on Sundays, Pop Culture Paradise is upping their prize support for Legacy. Entries are now $10 instead of $5 but today we played for a Force of Will. Feb 26th and March 4th are for playsets of Snapcaster Mage which is pretty sweet. Hopefully I'll be able to make it.

And if you wanna playtest for SCG Phoenix, send me a PM. I'm trying to get a Cockatrice group together for that. Unfortunately I am really busy in person for awhile and apart from the random PCP tournaments that I'm able to attend, I can't really play in person.

[lavafrogg]

OMG Snapcaster Mages!?!?!?! Thats next on my list of cards to acquire! I will try and make it.....Sunday brunch probably says otherwise though....

[lavafrogg]

Hello everyone! In order to not piss off the Aggro Loam players of the world I have moved back to this thread. For anyone not keeping up discussions that are current are the addition of liliana of the veil. The addition of GSZ and I really want to fit another monastery into the mana base. I feel like liliana and monastery would help justify the 4 deeds that I want in the sideboard.

edit: two lillianas in the list now, the synergy with the entire deck is stupid.... t1/hymn t/2 Lilliana t1/discard t2/goyf t3/Lilliana is absolutely dumb. Nantuko monestary has been the main finisher with a liliana locking down the board.

edit: up to three lillianas now. Really want more man lands but 2x monastery seems to be enough, might go up to three but the mana base might crap out on me at that point.

edit 3: Thought about taking out terravore for knight...terrible move with all of these token decks popping up...trample is just too big of a boon. Also vore is always a beating against knight decks themselves.

okay... I might have made the worst deck building choice that I have ever made but I have fit all of the cards i have been considering into the same build..... what the fuck

3 liliana, 3 mystic, 3 gsz, 3 loam all in the same deck.... holding it together 4 swords, 4 thoughtsieze a gsz toolbox and a whole lot of prayer!

[lavafrogg]

I just went 4-0 at the legacy side event at scg Phoenix running knights over vores lilianas over hymns and a 3/3 seize inquisition split. I beat rug, high tide, rug, and reanimator. More when I get home!

I just got home from my version of SCG phoenix, due to a work issue I will not be able to make it to the open tomorrow....garbage... but still I won as much as I could win today before taking my winnings and riding of into the sunset, or in this case the Tilted Kilt for nachos!

As for typical match report chatter, I started off the day wining a 8 man draft win U/B zombies with three mountains for olivia. This being the first time I read most of these cards the people in my pod did not enjoy that I had to read most cards one or two times, that didn't stop them from losing(probably just added to the frustration). I waited around for an hour or so, tweaking my decklist and making an actual sideboard for the side event that I got to play in. About 30 minutes before the event started my amazing girlfriend showed up with my 3 brand new liliana of the veils(a present!) and I was ready to play!

My new and improved list:

Creatures: 15
4 Knight of the Reliquary(I finally switched from terravore, I have mixed feelings)
4 Tarmogoyf(don't leave home without him)
4 Dark Confidant(kill this guy now)
3 Qasali Pridemage

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Spells: 18
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox diamond
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares

Land: 24
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Barren Moor

Sideboard: 15
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore

Match One: Canadian Thresh with faithful looting.
To set the undertone of this match, we started at table 1 and my opponent had a friend that sat and the end of the table and made hilarious jokes up to and including picking his belly button in the middle of our match. We had a good time until my opponent chased him off for being a distraction.Game one:
A normal game of magic, he was not able to keep tempo up with my deck and I am able to land a knight of the reliquary and kill all of his delver of secrets with plows. I walk right into a 2-1 being that I didn't know forked bold was a real card(isn't fire and ice just better?) I get to see his looting tech but don't think too much of it.
Game two:
This game is a little different as he is able to get a goose down early and I have no real answer to the little bastard. As I play something to block he loots wonder into his graveyard and races me to the finish line. He mulligan's to 5 this game.
Game Three:
I take from his book and things look grim for me as I mulligan to five, unfortunately for him I am able to get a goyf wall down as he snares my bob. Loam starts churning away and soon I have made up for the two card deficit. With loam going he cannot keep up and is one bolt shy of killing me before his own demise(it was the top card...!)

Match Two: Spring Tide with Candles
We joke about this matchup being hard for both of us, I think I mean it a little more than he does.
Game One: He has to force of will a Dark Confidant on turn One and then Forces a Knight on turn Four. This plus a little discard empties his hand and a Lilliana ensures that he never gets sculpt another one before a goyf kills him.
Game Two: We both keep decent hands with mine having early discard and a choke(kind of useless but stops the cantrip fest from happening). I get a Teeg down and extirpate ponders just to see his hand. With choke limiting his resources and me tapped out he takes a chance and hits all needed pieces to combo all over my face.
Game Three: An early goyf is met with teeg and choke. He cannot get there this time and I take a match from combos evil hands.

Match Three: Canadian Threshold
Game One: Early loam and huge knight send him packing before anything can get going for anyone, I believe it was a 7/7 with loam active...
Game Two: Some times the magic gods think that you deserve to lose a game. I draw all of my cycle lands after a 2 land 1 cycle land hand and die to a goyf and a goose with 2 deeds in hand. A timely wasteland from him ensured that my cycle lands were one turn too late.
Game Three: He keeps a land light hand and is quickly wastelanded out of the game. He however lets me run threat after threat after threat into a daze/force/snare counter wall and I look like a jackass every time he counters something. I get crypt'ed twice and had to lose a loam and 2 cycle lands to save 2 cycle lands and my nantuko monastery(it was my only win con at the moment and it had been submerged....). Eventually I land a knight that he cannot answer and ride it to victory.

Match Three: Reanimator
Apparently this is a pseudo good matchup because my opponent, who is on the source, was not really happy to see me.
Game One: He gets a early Iona on white and I get an early Liliana....so good....
Game Two: I start with a turn one bob that draws into swords for his first reanimated fatty and the GSZ into Ooze for all future fatties.

I went 4-0 and got 50 in vendor credit. I picked up a scavenging ooze and a recurring nightmare for shits and giggles. Now that my Ooze count is up to three I might switch them in and out with pridemages depending on what I see. They both have uses in multiple match-ups.

Cool Plays:
I wastelanded my own lands to get threshold to activate a monastery to block a mongoose.
I fetched my stronghold when my knight was dying to put the knight back on top of the library and re play it the next turn.

I got to see many of the smiling southwestern region sourcers and am sorry that I cannot play tomorrow. I should be able to make it to Tucson on the 5th for the SCG invitational. Ruckus has forever disappointed me by adding a splash color to his maverick list...but he also went 4-0 so I don't think that I can really say much. I was also super happy that most of the storm players had to play each other throughout the tournament. hopefully they know how it feels to sit down and know that you are not playing a real game of magic....more like assisted masturbation.

A special thanks and cheers goes to my girlfriend, It was her first magic event and she had a great time and was my lucky charm the whole day!

Good luck to everyone tomorrow!

p.s. SHIT!! I have my 2nd round opponents bojuka bog! I will try to make it down to the convention center tomorrow! Does anyone know who was playing Spring Tide and wearing a periodic table of elements t shirt?

This was posted in the rock thread:
Sheep:

Once again thank you for having interest in my decklist! You are correct in that the match-ups and thought processes are different that normal rock decks. For starters, you are very rarely in top deck mode, even when you are not cycling loams like crazy you either have a confidant on the board or a knight holding his own.

In that the deck plays different the cards do different things, for starters here is my current list:

Creatures: 15
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Spells: 18
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox diamond
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares

Land: 24
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Nantuko Monastery/Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor

Sideboard: 15
3 Ethersworn Canonist/Removal
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Terravore

Card Breakdown:

Life from the Loam: The reason the deck is build the way it is. Draw three for two mana is really good. Standstill was a good card for years and it had to be played on an empty board. Life will always get you three lands with those lands either doubling as spells(Cabal Pit, cycle lands, wasteland), creatures(stronghold, monastery) or just deck thinning and mana fixing. Once a Loam resolves you usually can take a breath in and relax that your mana is safe and sound. There will be times when you are kept off of two lands...these times suck, but are usually short lived.

Dark Confidant: You will lose very few games with a Loam rolling, you will lose slightly more when your back up plan is up and running, Dark Confidant is the Plan B and that says a lot about our plan a. He is the sandbagged card in your hand when you let them counter your goyf or knight to play Bob and watch their face drop. He just wins games and shout always be considered the best black creature, and arguably the best creature period.

Mox Diamond: These are what make the list different. With diamonds you are almost guaranteed to hit the colors that you need, when you need them, and loam ensures that you have no drawback. Play four because a mox with no drawback is dumb good. Can always be discarded but should usually be played when you can(mana screw sucks). Confidants/goyfs/loams or discard+cycle, cycle+swords are all good ways to start turn one.

Qasali Pridemage: When I took out vindicates I was worried about equipment running wild. Pridemage ensures that never happens. With SFM running rampant in the metagame, a maindeck answer to the equipment was a must. A reusable answer that happens to attack for three....priceless. He also kills opposing moxes, oblivion rings, leylines(game 2+3), animate dead, counterbalances, shackles and every artifact/enchantment saving humility. That card I lose to.

Tarmogoyf: The biggest problem with loam decks is the early game. For any deck that wants to end the game quick, Goyf is the last card they want played. Against Zoo, Burn, Combo or any fast deck...an early goyf is needed to either get the kill in time, or to hold off the onslaught until you can overwhelm them. He is a wall and should never be cut, as he is the best reason you win matches you shouldn't.

Thoughtseize/Inquisition: 1cc discard is needed to keep our opponents from overwhelming us before we are ready. We want to slow down the first few turns so they do not get out of hand, and proactive disruption allows us to take whatever cards we cannot deal with at the time....ie... creature when we are low on removal, removal when we are low on creatures!

Swords: Just....so....good....

Knight of the Reliquary: Used to be terravore and could easily be terravore. Both have their own pros and cons with knight being more resilient which is why he gets the nod at this time. I am trying to keep the tutor targets to a minimum to prevent drawing them naturally, knight usually acts like a planeswalker getting bigger and bigger while either waste-landing or doing something shady...and then he wins the game in 1-2 swings... must be rough.

Lands: The cycle lands are to pull real advantage from your loams, wastelands are amazing when you can reuse them, the stronghold is to get back and dredged/killed creatures and the last slot is for creature control. Nantuko Monastery has been holding the slot due to its ability to attack but reusable creature kill, Cabal Pit, has just snuck onto my radar. I think the 4/4 first striker is better, but flyers are a pain in the ass and they are always small(clique, delver, souls tokens) and weenies are running rampant(GW is a good deck ya know). The fourth wasteland comes and goes, it could easily turn into one or the other. A maze of ith could take the spot but it does not make mana or really do anything.... Karakas is only needed in legendary heavy metagame. I feel that neither of them are good enough.

Finally....

Liliana of the Veil:The MVP of the deck. With either a loam or a confidant, the +1 has no drawback for you. At her worst she edicts a creature and then draws some attackers, but at that point they could have just attacked you and finished the game. Their should never be enough creatures on the board that you cannot protect a Liliana, if there is you lost anyways. I really wish her ultimate ended the game but her first two abilities induce scoops when she is going. Post board she gets pernicious deed against swarm decks to ensure she can pick cards out of hands and creatures off of the board. Remember: you don't have to use her, if she has 2+ counters and you don't need the edict or the ultimate, you don't have to discard a card if you don't need to. She is the versatile card that vindicate was except she is reusable and has a use against combo(which is a big deal). She can also be played turn two off of a mox! p.s. when the board is clear Nantuko Monastery is her best friend, removal will be discarded before you animate and creatures will be edict'd away!

Sideboard: The board right now is holding its own...the deeds have to stay due to their interaction with Liliana. They could be another board sweeper if your meta calls for it.
Graveyard(dredge) gets surgical plus the GSZ package for Ooze and the bog.
Combo gets the most with Canonist plus GSZ for Teeg and Surgical if you feel like you need them. Loams and swords come out(easy call).
Incidental hate is the bog against knight decks, terravore against maverick or stoneblade. Surgical against stoneblade. The only card I don't like are the canonists in that they are so narrow(but needed against combo), when I am feeling brave, I play either chokes, path to exiles, or engineered explosives in the spot, depending on what I see. Zuran orb if I see burn btw, it plays around price and gains the most life for the least mana it is really hard for them to win with it on the board seeing how you can kill vortex(but have to dodge smash!)

The deck has different match=ups that traditional rock but the two are very similar. The way the main and the side work, the deck sideboards like a champion. If you don't need added speed or mana fixing, take out moxes, If you don't need a super late game, take out loams. Swords are dead in combo match-ups and come out whenever they need to.

The deck hates seeing fast swarm decks and would play infest in the board if shit got out of control with goblins/merfolk/random aggro. Against zoo all you can really do is hope you can discard away enough gas to lay down a bomb, wasteland is very effective against zoo though...especially if you have a tarmo wall up. EE is really good against zoo and is easier to cast though disruption/duress.

You want to see "fair" magic decks all day long. Any midrange aggro/control deck will be an easy matchup(sorry bant!). They can not deal with all of the ways that are being attacked and Liliana is better than Jace in this instance. Stoneblade is a fun matchup in that they should never have equipment online and all of your creatures are enormous compared to theirs. Super heavy swords hands are suck but that takes mana and you have wasteland to keep the dual count low.

Nic Fit is in the same category, you have swords/discard for their explorers wastes for their duals(they love mana). And huge beaters while they try to draw through it. If explorer goes off you get lands to fuel your loam engine and just outdraw whatever garbage they throw at you. Pridemage is huge in this matchup as well as monastery(recursion!)

If control is big in your meta, bring eternal witness in to show snapcaster mage how it is done!

That being said, decks that are not "fair" are not fun. Combo is just who gets the better draw. You have a fighting chance and are not dead by any means. With multiple hate options/angles if they don't win fast they most likely will not. Burn is about as bad of a matchup as you can get and requires specific hate cards....warmth is an option but is good against nothing else. I think orb is the best card to fight burn and zoo as best as possible(you just need enough time to stabilize).

Jace is a pain in the ass but you can draw more cards than him and can usually use the rest of the deck to keep him off of the board. He cannot bounce Liliana or Monastery, and you can use stronghold to draw creature every turn for the rest of the game.

Mana curve: The highest card in the deck cost three, so the curve is not very high. This means that with the right draws the deck can come out of the gate fast and win like it is its job. When the game goes long, life from the loam can use all of your land drops to ensure you never run out of gas. You play a lot of lands so you can draw and dredge a lot of cards. An ideal hand has a turn one mox to wasteland and discard the best card in their hand, turn two(or turn one goyf/bob...omg no removal...gg?) goyf or bob can get dumb fast when you can start cycling lands and dredging as well.

You want loam up ASAP so you can keep gas at all times but do not feel that you have to loam every turn. If you do not have the mana to loam and play business then just play business. Always try to keep a cycler in hand to "save" loam if need be, but if you have loamed 2-3 times let them have it the -1 CA is just insult to injury when you are +5-6 already!

An early knight or Liliana will steal the game, but you should always be playing like Liliana is the next card. If she gets on a board for a few turns the game is yours!

Finally, mana stability is not terrible but if you only draw cycle lands and no mox...you will be pissed. It happens every once in a while but mox helps to minimize the issue. Keeping hands with 2+ mana sources(2+loam) are ideal.

If you have any questions please let me know, thanks for reading!

[lavafrogg]

Someone was looking for this thread so I am necroing it so it can be found. Mods can change it to BWG Loam if they want.

[Finn]

Hey, I did not read, but I am wondering why you chose Inquisition over Hymn in this version. Sitting on the other side, I always considered that such a damaging spell to have to overcome in this deck.

[lavafrogg]

1cc discard vs hymn was a debate that lasted for several pages in the rock thread a while ago, and still has not been completely ironed out. When playing a life from the loam deck, you have so few cards that you actually care about that is is actually much more important to remove the specific card than just try to win with hymn card advantage.

I do not really see a problem with someone playing hymn over inquisition in more aggressive list but with the more patient loam lists you are trying to set up a game winning dark confidant, loam draw engine, waste lock, Lilliana or even knight of the reliquary.

When you inquisition for the only relevant card in their hand be it scavenging ooze, sensei's divining top, vindicate whatever and then abuse your graveyard/recursion engine and pull ahead in cards, the extra card from hymn is not relevant.

[Mr. Safety]

Thank you Lavafrogg, the necro was for me!

This is where my list belongs I think. I am working diligently on a mid-range oriented list focused on Loam card advantage/ramp and a strong focus on PW's.

Current list:

2 x Thoughtseize
2 x Inquisition of Kozilek
1 x Profane Command
4 x Raven's Crime
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
3 x Pernicious Deed
1 x Qasali Pridemage
1 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Eternal Witness
2 x Garruk Relentless
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Life from the Loam
1 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Terravore

2 x Barren Moor
1 x Forest
1 x Marsh Flats
1 x Nantuko Monastery
1 x Scrubland
2 x Swamp
1 x Savannah
2 x Bayou
2 x Tranquil Thicket
1 x Treetop Village
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor


Deathrite Shaman, Abrubt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse are still in the back of my mind as well. The only reason I haven't included Liliana of the Veil is because I already have a strong removal suite and discard with Raven's Crime/Loam.

[Sughayyer]

@Mr. Safety
again, not being a douche, but isn't 4 raven's crime a bit too much? Also, since you went the full-gy dependant way, might as well add more terravores (2 more, maybe?) also add tombstalker, then you'll have a creature that benefits from a big grave but is not dependant on it. My suggestion: -2 raven's crime, -2 zenith, -1 profane command, + 2 terravore, +3 stalker.

[Sughayyer]

On a sidenote, I'm eager to see a working bg loam deck that does not lose to combo and can deal consistently with aggro.

[lavafrogg]

I think a deck based around loam, top and eternal witness could reliably find disruption consistent enough to be competitive. I wrote this really quick for an idea:

3 Eternal witness
1 teeg/ooze
1 deathrite shaman
1 pridemage

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
3 Lilliana

1 Garruk

4 Swords
3 Deed/decay

3 GSZ

4 mox diamond
3 life from the loam
3 top

24 land

For a rough idea

[Finn]

I have never even wanted one Raven's Crime. I have included one in the past, but then never found myself wanting to fetch it with Entomb.

[Sughayyer]

That list is extremely unconsistent and is cold-losing to combo.

[lavafrogg]

Sug- I'm no really sure where you get inconsistent from, tops and loam are a really powerful card selection and draw engine.

Against combo you have a decent plan as any non blue deck, 1cc discard into Lilliana into witness for more discard with a splash of gaddock teeg to top it of. Out of the board you get extirpate or whatever other hate card you choose to bring in.

Seems just as good as other decks.

[Mr. Safety]

@Mr. Safety
again, not being a douche, but isn't 4 raven's crime a bit too much? Also, since you went the full-gy dependant way, might as well add more terravores (2 more, maybe?) also add tombstalker, then you'll have a creature that benefits from a big grave but is not dependant on it. My suggestion: -2 raven's crime, -2 zenith, -1 profane command, + 2 terravore, +3 stalker.

To increase the chances of getting a Raven's Crime early-mid game, that's why I play 4. I have played 2 (didn't like it), 3 (getting closer) but with a full set of Life from the Loam, I want to make sure Loam is doing its job. Crime/Loam in the mid-game obliterates opponent's hands, and hard-casting an extra Crime isn't a bad call (letting you make land drops so you can get to that 3-4 mana range for your beats/PW's)

I've played up to 2 Terravores, but with a full set of GSZ I don't think I need more than 1. The best land-based beater is Knight, no questions asked. If I was using Sinkhole or Smallpox? Terravore is king. I like the toolbox of Knight, he gets 4 slots. Terravore is essentially another Goyf...just dumb beats.

I like the Tombstalker idea...it has potential, and I could try -1 Raven's Crime, -2 Maelstrom Pulse, +3 Tombstalker.

I feel that if I play 4 Loams...then I need to play 4 Raven's Crime to make sure those loams do their job. Ditto on the cycle lands, that's why I have 4 rather than just 1-2.

I am in the experimental/testing phase at the moment. I love the feedback, suggestions, advice, etc...but at this point, I need to know firsthand why certain choices are bad (or surprisingly good.)

[Mr. Safety]

Sug- I'm no really sure where you get inconsistent from, tops and loam are a really powerful card selection and draw engine.

Against combo you have a decent plan as any non blue deck, 1cc discard into Lilliana into witness for more discard with a splash of gaddock teeg to top it of. Out of the board you get extirpate or whatever other hate card you choose to bring in.

Seems just as good as other decks.

He meant my list, I think. Tops seem good...but I also think that Sylvan Library could do the same job (or even Mirri's Guile)

[Finn]

Top is the best if for no other reason than it can be used to save Life from the Loam from hate.

Mr. Safety, consider using Entomb, and just one Raven's Crime with fewer Loams and perhaps even something like Genesis But I was saying that even then I did not want the card after testing it. To this day I do not know why lavafrogg does not use Entomb.

[Hanni]

Top is the best if for no other reason than it can be used to save Life from the Loam from hate.

Mr. Safety, consider using Entomb, and just one Raven's Crime with fewer Loams and perhaps even something like Genesis But I was saying that even then I did not want the card after testing it. To this day I do not know why lavafrogg does not use Entomb.

It is so funny reading this, after just making several posts in the Aggro Loam thread regarding Entomb. :laugh:

Long discussion short: some people (like me and you) like it, other people don't (tempo sink, nothing worth grabbing, vulnerability to countermagic, etc).

[Mr. Safety]

I just think that the best use of Entomb is to simply grab a fatty and turn 2 convert it to the battlefield with Reanimate/Animate Dead. Using it as a pseudo-toolbox enabler seems ok...but then again, Intuition-Rock/River-Rock seems like a better place to be pulling tricks like that because of Intuition's ability to adapt to most anything.

On a side note...how do folks feel about dropping some number of Raven's Crime for some number of Life/Death? It has a similar application as Unearth/Profane Command but also allows Loam to make your many land drops into an offense.

[lavafrogg]

I don't understand why you couldn't run entomb for a toolbox and a 1 of griselbrand/Iona/elesh norn to play with 3-4 reanimates in the main/board.

This would give the option to grab a loam and grind a win or a fatty against a specific matchup.

[KobeBryan]

How is this deck any different than the rock.

[Sughayyer]

Regarding Entomb:
Yeah, I'd like to have 4 entombs and 1 volrath's stronghold, then I could stop borrowing these anytime I wanted to play a loam deck.
Would play 3 loam, 1 witness, also 1 hexmage and 1 dark depths, just because.

Don't forget darkblast, it is FANTASTIC.

@Avatar of Shadow
You really can't tell the difference?

The Rock is an archetype based on BGx (usually w) wich comprises aggro/control decks and tempo decks. The Rock is remarked by it's proactive control via discard, and strong permanent removal spells.
Loam (any version) is a deck that utilizes lands/grave interactions to lock down/kill your opponent. Usually runs creatures that benefit from the fact that you are sending lands/cards to the grave all the time, and recursion engines.

I still like The Rock best than all decks, but sometimes I feel like playing loam or deadguy (wich is an even more different deck)

[Hanni]

I don't understand why Entomb has to be doing something broken to be a useful card. Sure, it does broken things for Reanimator. That's because they are running a handful of otherwise uncastable creatures, and a handful of spells that don't do anything until they put one of those creatures in the graveyard. That plan needs to combo 2 spells (Entomb + reanimation spell), or 3 spells without Entomb (creature + discard outlet + reanimation spell).

There's nothing wrong with Reanimator, it's a powerful deck. Yes, they can do broken things with Entomb. I still don't see why it has to be a broken card to be useful for other decks. I mean, it's only a 1cc instant... we're not talking about some 4cc or 5cc spell here.

In this deck, you don't need to combo it with a reanimation spell. Instead, it directly tutors for your Life from the Loam, which is otherwise dead in multiples.

Instead of drawing an excess unecessary Loam after the 1st, you draw Entomb. That Entomb can then tutor for a small toolbox of spells that can be incredibly powerful with Life from the Loam. Raven's Crime, Worm Harvest, and Cabal Pit, to just name a few.

(I'm speaking with the assumption that you'd be running Entombs instead of multiple Loams. Some people may want them in addition to Loam to increase the consistency of finding Loam. I'm not sure whether running less Loams for Entombs, or running more Loam's and Entombs, is the better plan... but I'm in favor of the less Loams and more Entombs, personally.)


How is this deck any different than the rock.

Life from the Loam? This deck is The Rock, it's just a version that impliments the Life from the Loam engine. Not sure what you were getting at, because I feel like I'm just stating the obvious.

[lavafrogg]

This deck has an emphisis on abusing life from the loam in a GBW shell so naturally life from the loam is a 3-4 of mox diamond is a 4 of and the rest varies from what list you are talking abou at the time.

But other than that, I feel that this is the rock. The actual rock thread just plays a different version.

[Mr. Safety]

Entomb has now become priority #1 for this deck. Three compies means I can cut to down to 3 loams, 1 Ravens' Crime, and work in some way of reanimating a fatty (either mainboard or a sideboard plan.) I'm not talking about Iona/Jin-Gitaxias but rather using Unearth or Life/Death to get Knight/Terravore back after tutoring for it (Entomb) or dredging it (Loam) or discarding it from Smallpox (more on that below.)

+3 Entomb
-3 Raven's Crime

At some point, I want to test Smallpox again...too many people say 'just go play pox' when I suggest adding in Smallpox...but I think Loam decks, more than any other non-Pox deck, can get a positive result from using Smallpox as tempo-denial/board control. I really wish there was a PW that had a Regrowth ability...that would be great.

[lavafrogg]

Entomb seems to be pretty tits, I am scared about committing 100% to the graveyard through, Scavenging Ooze and RiP are real cards now:(

Fuck dredge for making graveyard hate so powerful you cannot play decks that rely on the graveyard for shit.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not worried about Ooze...but Rest in Peace is rough. I use Leyline of Sanctity out of the board against burn/sligh anyways and it happens to do well against targeted grave hate (everything but RiP and Relic.)

So I've been grinding all the comments around in my head, and I think I have a decent list hammered out. I want to play an efficent game plan but still have loam available. That's where entomb comes in. I want to abuse Grisly Salvage in a big way; that's where Unearth comes in.

Dinosaur Jr.

Creatures - 11
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Deathrite Shaman

Utility - 18
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Smallpox
1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
1x Garruk Relentless

Potentially Broken Shit - 10
4x Grisly Salvage
3x Entomb
3x Unearth

Lands - 22
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Treetop Village
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains


I really want to start the deck out with 4x Grisly Salvage, 3x Entomb, and 3x Unearth. Getting my beatsticks for only :b: seems really hot. Digging into lands/beatsticks will be fairly easy with Grisly Salvage, and dredging loam allows for Unearth to do its thing. If my graveyard gets hosed...ok, moving on, play a straight-up aggro-control game with removal, discard, and beats.

Theoretical sideboard:

4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Crop Rotation
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Duress


I know the sideboard needs work, but it's a first draft. Oblivion Ring may need to be there for Omni/Show. Looking for some feedback...I have completely replaced the GSZ package in favor of an Entomb package. Grisly Salvage seems nuts to me.

I like the idea of Smallpox enabling me while really shitting on fair decks. I also like that its a nice, flexible 4 slots for the sideboard against unfair decks. I'm debating dropping the Raven's Crime altogether because of Smallpox, and I wonder if [/CARDS]Lotleth Troll[/CARDS] becomes a decent option. Without Vengevine/Bloodghast/Gravecrawler enabling Lotleth Troll I think its better to stick with Knights/Vores as the big beats.

Notes: I dropped Elspeth, the double white was trouble. The curve is also a lot lower, allowing me to play Smallpox but still function on only 2-3 lands for the whole game. I included card 61 as land #22 because of smallpox and it just makes me feel better, lol. Liliana of the Veils seems like she should be in here...but I really want my three mana plays to be Knight/Vore. Liliana doesn't really help me out when I get behind either...Garruk Relentless gets the playtest for now. Liliana is still hovering in the background though, waiting to jump in if need be.

[Greenpoe]

You're going to want a Genesis and possibly a Gigapede in for your Entomb-box.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure either is good enough to include. Volrath's Stronghold and Unearth seem to me to be enough...we shall see. I'll keep it in my notes to test.

[lavafrogg]

I think I told you this before but I would drop most of your huge beaters for more witnesses and confidants.

I see you winning mostly through smallpox/witness, Garruk , or ravens crime lockdown. Knight doesn't really help when he will be smallpoxed away most of the time.

[Mr. Safety]

More witness I can get behind...but I'm not sure I can squeeze in Bobs. He can provide card advantage, sure...but reanimated with Unearth seems a little underwhelming. I want a reanimated dude to be worth reanimating, hence the Knights/Vores/utility creatures.

I'm trying to strike a balance between aggro and control without committing too far to either one. Entomb/Unearth is the toolbox to fluctuate the balance by fetching what I need (Loam/Crime/Witness for control, Knight/Terravore/Goyf for aggro)

[sherko7]

Entomb seems to be pretty tits, I am scared about committing 100% to the graveyard through, Scavenging Ooze and RiP are real cards now:(

Fuck dredge for making graveyard hate so powerful you cannot play decks that rely on the graveyard for shit.

Hello collateral damage - from a Dredge player :laugh:

Kidding aside, Entomb seems to be pretty nice for this deck, and with that I think Volrath's Stronghold would become a must include.

I'm liking the idea of this deck being able to use the GY as a resource. Entomb is such an OP card when you don't really need a reanimate spell to utilize it properly. I'm not a big fan of Unearth though, might as well just play Reanimate and Entomb a fatty. It also feels a bit too clunky as opposed to just running GSZ. I could be wrong.

[lavafrogg]

More witness I can get behind...but I'm not sure I can squeeze in Bobs. He can provide card advantage, sure...but reanimated with Unearth seems a little underwhelming. I want a reanimated dude to be worth reanimating, hence the Knights/Vores/utility creatures.

I'm trying to strike a balance between aggro and control without committing too far to either one. Entomb/Unearth is the toolbox to fluctuate the balance by fetching what I need (Loam/Crime/Witness for control, Knight/Terravore/Goyf for aggro)

As a long time loam player, confidant is the only way you can play a game of magic against a RiP, leyline or even a super active scavenging ooze. I promise he is worth his weight.

[Finn]

Yup. If you run Dark Confidant and have a decent aggro component (I.E. not too many graveyard-dependent or toolbox parts), you can basically piss on Tormod's Crypt. I don't know about Rest in Peace though. That is some next level shit. The Entombs definitely move the deck further in that direction though. I would say that game 2 should include some method of going closer to aggro with less durdling.

[Hanni]

Yup. If you run Dark Confidant and have a decent aggro component (I.E. not too many graveyard-dependent or toolbox parts), you can basically piss on Tormod's Crypt. I don't know about Rest in Peace though. That is some next level shit. The Entombs definitely move the deck further in that direction though. I would say that game 2 should include some method of going closer to aggro with less durdling.

The chief issue here is to make sure you're not going overboard with the toolbox, that's all. It still makes sense for a Loam deck to run Entombs in place of excess Loam's. Lands that you would grab with Entomb are still useful without it, especially with Knight... like Cabal Pit and Volrath's Stronghold. The only two "spells" that I would even want to grab with Entomb would be Raven's Crime and Worm Harvest, which is still more than enough targets to make use of Entomb.

Even without the graveyard, the deck still plays a "Rock" game with discard, removal, and big creatures.

[lavafrogg]

The chief issue here is to make sure you're not going overboard with the toolbox, that's all. It still makes sense for a Loam deck to run Entombs in place of excess Loam's. Lands that you would grab with Entomb are still useful without it, especially with Knight... like Cabal Pit and Volrath's Stronghold. The only two "spells" that I would even want to grab with Entomb would be Raven's Crime and Worm Harvest, which is still more than enough targets to make use of Entomb.

Even without the graveyard, the deck still plays a "Rock" game with discard, removal, and big creatures.

Finn is exactly correct in his post. When your entire deck loses to graveyard hate then your list is no viable. People are playing gross amounts of grave hate right now and you have to plan for games where you will never resolve a loam of even hav a graveyard at all.

[Hanni]

My point was that, so long as you're not going overboard on the Entomb toolbox, you aren't losing viability when the graveyard is shut off. The deck loses alot of its midgame power without Loam and the synergies surrounding it, but it still has a "Rock" core to fall back on.

Besides, this is your thread, not mine. I was just providing some opinions based on my personal experiences. Honestly, if I was going to play with Loam, I'd do so in a control deck.

[lavafrogg]

Lol, I ran a GSZ board in the side last time I played this deck. I could side on some loams and in some zeniths and pretty much nullify grave hate.

[Mr. Safety]

I have playtested my list against a stock Canadian Thresh deck...I went 1-2. Game 2 loam and Knights got me there, but all games he was having a hard time dealing with Unearth. That card is really pulling its weight. Smallpox turn 2, discard a Knight/Goyf/Witness, Unearth turn 3 = great stuff. Unearth is my new favorite toy for this deck, and alongside Entomb is just nutso.

I think I'm going to drop off the Grisly Salvage plan and stick to just entomb. Salvage opens me up to more hate and it just happens to be 4 slots that I can dedicate to Bob.

Dinosaur Jr. v2.0

4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
1x Eternal Witness
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Tarmogoyf

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Entomb
3x Unearth
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Smallpox
1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
1x Green Sun's Zenith

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Treetop Village
2x Swamp
1x Forest


I still like Green Sun's Zenith...but I am really digging the Entomb/Unearth combination. I think the 5 targeted discards along with Smallpox and Raven's Crime should be decent against grave hate. Abrupt Decay can also deal with Rest in Peace, and then I can carry on.

Dark Confidant is in...so now do I work in 2-3x Sensei's Divining Top? What could be cut for that? I can drop the Raven's Crime to the sideboard, it has been only useful in long games. I wonder about the singleton GSZ and whether I should even use it. *shrug* I like the direction of the deck and I really like what it is capable of. Smallpox seems anti-synergistic but Unearth really breaks the symmetry nicely for cheap mana.

Suggestions?

EDIT: -1 Treetop Village, -1 Swamp, +1 Nantuko Monastary, +1 Cabal Pit

[Hanni]

Grisly Salvage was awful in your build to begin with, if you ask me. 2cc cantrips in general are /fail, but the only benefit you were getting was... more lands in the yard? At least in a deck like Zombies, every Ghast/Crawler/Vine/Squee/etc is card advantage.

I'm not a fan of Unearth. I'd much rather run more creatures instead.

I'd strongly consider Cabal Pit. It gives you an answer to Mother of Runes, and there are so many juicy targets for it right now. Also, would Nantuko Monastery be the better 1-of manland?

[lavafrogg]

Sometimes you just let dark confidant draw you cards... Without top.

[Mr. Safety]

Grisly Salvage was awful in your build to begin with, if you ask me. 2cc cantrips in general are /fail, but the only benefit you were getting was... more lands in the yard? At least in a deck like Zombies, every Ghast/Crawler/Vine/Squee/etc is card advantage.

I'm not a fan of Unearth. I'd much rather run more creatures instead.

I'd strongly consider Cabal Pit. It gives you an answer to Mother of Runes, and there are so many juicy targets for it right now. Also, would Nantuko Monastery be the better 1-of manland?

If I had 4 Goyfs, I'd play 4 Goyfs. I don't...I only have 1 Goyf.

Nantuko Monastary was in the original decklist I had. It enters untapped so I agree about it being a better choice. Cabal Pit can take the place of my other basic Swamp. Thanks for the note.