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Kuma
06-27-2011, 08:43 PM
"I'll have my revenge if I have to call on every force from above and below."

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/KumaTheBear/Kaalia-of-the-Vast.jpg

Lands: (34)

Arid Mesa
Badlands
Blood Crypt
Scrubland
Godless Shrine
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Bloodstained Mire
Wooded Foothills
Scalding Tarn
Flooded Strand
Marsh Flats
Windswept Heath
Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
City of Brass
Dragonskull Summit
Exotic Orchard
Fetid Heath
Graven Cairns
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Reflecting Pool
Rugged Prairie
Spinerock Knoll
Command Tower
Battlefield Forge
Caves of Koilos
Flagstones of Trokair
Isolated Chapel
Clifftop Retreat
Cavern of Souls
Shadowblood Ridge
Plains

Acceleration: (13)

Boros Signet
Orzhov Signet
Rakdos Signet
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Talisman of Indulgence
Mana Vault
Dark Ritual
Worn Powerstone
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus

Card Draw/Manipulation: (2)

Scroll Rack
Bloodgift Demon

Tutors: (9)

Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Gamble
Grim Tutor
Imperial Seal
Steelshaper's Gift
Stoneforge Mystic
Vampiric Tutor
Rune-Scarred Demon

Removal: (12)

Admonition Angel
Angel of Despair
Bogardan Hellkite
Rakdos the Defiler
Sire of Insanity
Reaper from the Abyss
Balefire Dragon
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Angel of Serenity
Chaos Warp
Oblation

Protection: (6)

Adarkar Valkyrie
Lightning Greaves
Mother of Runes
Aegis Angel
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Whispersilk Cloak

Big, Stupid Beaters: (8)

Archangel of Strife
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Serra Ascendant
Utvara Hellkite
Angelic Skirmisher
Aurelia, the Warleader
Lord of the Void
Master of Cruelties

Control: (15)

Chancellor of the Annex
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Platinum Angel
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Impending Disaster
Cataclysm
Thoughts of Ruin
Blinding Angel
Austere Command
Catastrophe
Merciless Eviction
Aven Mindcensor
Stranglehold

Basically, you shit angels, demons, and dragons onto the table and try to destroy all lands before your opponents can recover. Tutor for Lightning Greaves early and get them on Kaalia of the Vast as soon as possible. Most creatures in the deck (those not under the big, stupid beater heading) either act as removal or have some kind of controlling element, allowing you to take control of the game in short order.

This deck is a blast to play. Give it a whirl!

Other lists:

Esper3k (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21318-EDH-Kaalia-of-the-Vast&p=589823&viewfull=1#post589823)

Malchar
06-28-2011, 02:29 AM
Aegis Angel from m2012 might be useful. You could protect the general, or even the lightning greaves.

Kuma
06-28-2011, 01:30 PM
Aegis Angel from m2012 might be useful. You could protect the general, or even the lightning greaves.

Wow, good find. Aegis Angel is almost certainly going in once M12 comes out. It's also fantastic with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

Sims
06-28-2011, 03:39 PM
Just throwing it out there, there are a lot of creatures that are fantastic in these colors that you'd love to play and beat with for free, but can't becuse they aren't Angels, Demons, or Dragons...

enter Conspiracy

It's hilarious attacking with your general at a guy who has a bunch of utility dorks only to shit out an Elesh Norn, or even one of the Titans, since you'll get the CIP trigger even without the attack trigger.

AlexAI
06-28-2011, 03:49 PM
Conspiracy still seems good even if you stick with the Demon/Dragon/Angel theme since it makes Rakdos and Bladewing better. Kilnmouth Dragon and Patriarch's Bidding would be good to add then, as well.

Kuma
06-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Just throwing it out there, there are a lot of creatures that are fantastic in these colors that you'd love to play and beat with for free, but can't becuse they aren't Angels, Demons, or Dragons...

enter Conspiracy

It's hilarious attacking with your general at a guy who has a bunch of utility dorks only to shit out an Elesh Norn, or even one of the Titans, since you'll get the CIP trigger even without the attack trigger.


Conspiracy still seems good even if you stick with the Demon/Dragon/Angel theme since it makes Rakdos and Bladewing better. Kilnmouth Dragon and Patriarch's Bidding would be good to add then, as well.

Those are very good points. I'll have to think about some good options. Titans and Praetors are a good starting place, but do you guys have any other ideas? Mother of Runes sounds good, and I'd thought about Sheoldred, Whispering One.

Also, this deck really wants Moat.

...my poor wallet.

Malchar
06-28-2011, 06:47 PM
Personally I don't think Conspiracy is good enough. It does nothing on it's own, and if you draw a titan without having conspiracy then you'll have to hard cast it. It seems like being able to sneak in angels, dragons, and demons should already be sufficient.

Mother of Runes is also great for any white deck. Weathered Wayfarer is also pretty useful since you could run less lands than normal and plan on just playing things through your general. I was also noticing that Warstorm Surge from m2012 or the similar Pandemonium might be good. Pandemonium is symmetrical, but you should be able to get the most benefit out of it because of your general. The only caveat is that you'd want to make sure that your general is protected so that she doesn't get sniped by it.

You could actually use Daru Spiritualist, Lightning Greaves bouncing between the spiritualist and your general, and Starlit Sanctum to get infinite life. Daru Spiritualist isn't that bad on it's own either since it kind of protects your general. There's also Edgewalker, Daunting Defender, and perhaps Master Apothecary.

Kuma
06-29-2011, 05:01 PM
Personally I don't think Conspiracy is good enough. It does nothing on it's own, and if you draw a titan without having conspiracy then you'll have to hard cast it. It seems like being able to sneak in angels, dragons, and demons should already be sufficient.

After some thought, I came to a conclusion about Conspiracy. If I'm running a small number of non-angel, demon, or dragon creatures, Conspiracy isn't very useful in the deck. If I run a large number of creatures I can't cheat into play without it, the deck won't work very well if I don't have Conspiracy. Either it's a weak card, or I'm forced to tutor for it to make the deck run smoothly. The interaction it has with cards already in the deck isn't enough reason to run it.


I was also noticing that Warstorm Surge from m2012 or the similar Pandemonium might be good. Pandemonium is symmetrical, but you should be able to get the most benefit out of it because of your general. The only caveat is that you'd want to make sure that your general is protected so that she doesn't get sniped by it.

Pandemonium's symmetry is enough reason not to run it. As for Warstorm Surge, it's a little costly at six mana. This deck requires a certain percentage of angels, demons, and dragons to run smoothly, and cutting them for cards like Warstorm Surge will hurt the deck's consistency. I'm not even sure Warstorm Surge is better than Mordant Dragon. If you can suggest a good cut, I'll try it, but I need a real good reason to dip the creature count.


You could actually use Daru Spiritualist, Lightning Greaves bouncing between the spiritualist and your general, and Starlit Sanctum to get infinite life. Daru Spiritualist isn't that bad on it's own either since it kind of protects your general. There's also Edgewalker, Daunting Defender, and perhaps Master Apothecary.

I'm not going to turn the deck into cleric tribal when I can cheat huge fliers into play. That said, I am intrigued by the life combo, but I can't cut many more angels, demons, and dragons before the deck becomes inconsistent. Low to mid-30's is where I want the count to be, which means I'll have to cut non-creature spells for any non-cheatable additions.

- Ancient Hellkite
- Dragon Mage
- Vindicate
- Akroma, Angel of Wrath
- Malfegor
- Gilded Lotus

+ Armageddon
+ Ravages of War
+ Moat
+ Battlefield Forge
+ Caves of Koilos
+ Mother of Runes

Getting ahead on creatures seems easy to do. Then, blowing up all lands seems to powerful not to do. Moat should stop people from ganging up and racing you, but I could see it not lasting in the deck. I wanted a couple extra lands, since when I mulligan, I'd rather be putting back lands for creatures/tutors than creatures/tutors for lands. Mother of Runes seems too good not to run.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120662&stc=1&d=1309320479

Holy crap.

This guy is amazing. Cheat him into play, search for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and then Demonic Tutor every turn for the rest of the game.

Malchar
06-30-2011, 05:46 PM
Pestilence Demon and Kagemaro, First to Suffer are great things to sneak into play to give you some insurance in case you lose board control and need to wipe.

Kuma
07-02-2011, 02:04 PM
Pestilence Demon is solid, but I don't like that he kills Kaalia of the Vast if you spend more than two mana in a turn. I don't usually have enough cards in my hand to make Kagemaro, First to Suffer work, and if I did it's probably because I drew a ton of cards from Knollspine Dragon and don't want to wipe the board.

If I need another sweeper, I'm probably going to put Malfegor back in. In the meantime, Scourge of Kher Ridges, Oros, the Avenger, Rakdos the Defiler and Steel Hellkite do the job pretty well.

M12 changes are going to look something like this:

- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Coalition Relic/Battlefield Forge
- Angelic Arbiter/Razia, Boros Archangel/Bladewing the Risen

+ Aegis Angel
+ Rune-Scarred Demon
+ Swiftfoot Boots

Malchar
07-02-2011, 05:55 PM
- Angelic Arbiter/Razia, Boros Archangel/Bladewing the Risen

I think the angelic arbiter is the weakest one here. The ability just isn't that strong in multiplayer EDH. Plenty of decks are content to play by the rules. Also, bladewing seems especially strong because you can use it to get back another dragon with an important ability, like scourge of kher ridges. The scourge is probably better than pestilence demon now that I think about it. My idea was that you could put in a creature so that if you somehow lose your general or lose board control, you have the option of wiping everyone's field (or everything except the demon itself). Oros might not be strong enough to kill everything, Steel Hellkite might be too slow, and even Malfegor can fail if they simply cast some spot removal on the following turn and replay a threat.

TsumiBand
07-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Hey, I picked this deck up on a whim and I do enjoy it when it 'goes broken', that is to say when I just have billions of huge duders in hand. I wanted to ask about a couple of things as I'm super new to EDH.

* Your decklist has a lot of lifeloss. Hall of the Bandit Lord, Ambition's Cost, Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, various Tutors, etc... and not a ton of ways to get it back besides like Baneslayer Angel. I added a handful of these cards and some others, like Skeletal Scrying, and while I don't have as many life-for-cards spells as you do, I feel like you end up hitting yourself for a billion damages by the time the other guys start to stabilize. I think I did about 15 damage to myself last time with HotBL alone. Do you feel like the deck is inclined to just murder itself?

* I've only been playing EDH for about a month, but I feel like our general comes out faster than a lot of them and has a more immediate effect, meaning that the deck really wants to play quite fast. I've added Exalted Angel and Grinning Demon, partially for the lulz of it but also because I'm fond of the deck being one that can play early threats and continue to do so via Kaalia and her crew. Exalted seems a little tiny for this format (saaad faaace) but again, lifelink is lifelink ne? Is this just a really fragile plan on the whole, or does being able to break sooner than other aggressive decks really mean much in this format? I guess to edit and clarify - since Exalted and Grinning can get played lots of different ways - Kaalia, face-down, straight-up - and they all represent a fairly aggressive turn 3/4, would you say that they keep the deck doing what it's intended to do (play guys that are fast, numerous and big)?

* It seems like the mana acceleration is "only fair"; is that a fault of the format or the colors we're in? Is there more mana ramping that the deck could be doing? This is a big ? for me because like I said, just getting into EDH and still trying to wrap my head around the proper speed of the format.

Malchar
07-03-2011, 05:55 AM
- The lifeloss doesn't matter that much in EDH. Usually when you lose, it's because you don't have board position and the opponents have tons of stuff in play, so you lose by a land slide. The alternative is that they have some kind of combo that hits for a ton. Either way, even doing as much as 20 damage to yourself usually doesn't matter that much.

- This is one of the faster generals in EDH. I would try to get a lightning greaves in play as soon as possible, ideally before casting the general. After you get the general attacking, just keep playing as many bombs as you can before the opponents can answer. You want to protect the general though, because if she dies once or twice, then it's not even worth casting her again because you could just hardcast your bombs at that point anyway.

- The mana acceleration is average. Usually decks run around 10 cards to fulfill this role. Obviously green has more options here. You can look at other decklists for an idea of the other popular cards, but this list has all the basics. Worn Powerstone and Darksteel Ingot are some other popular choices. Mono-color decks also have a lot more options with things like Gauntlet of Power, but obviously those don't work too well in a 3-color deck.

Kuma
07-03-2011, 02:26 PM
* Your decklist has a lot of lifeloss. Hall of the Bandit Lord, Ambition's Cost, Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, various Tutors, etc... and not a ton of ways to get it back besides like Baneslayer Angel. I added a handful of these cards and some others, like Skeletal Scrying, and while I don't have as many life-for-cards spells as you do, I feel like you end up hitting yourself for a billion damages by the time the other guys start to stabilize. I think I did about 15 damage to myself last time with HotBL alone. Do you feel like the deck is inclined to just murder itself?

I've never had a problem with the self-inflicted damage since I'm dishing out way more pain to my opponents than they are to me. Like Malchar said, you lose when you lose board position, and it's usually by a landslide. I can count on one hand the number of EDH games I've played where I lost a slow attrition war by a couple of points of life. The most damage I've done to myself with Hall of the Bandit Lord is 9, and I could see myself cutting the card because I hate lands that enter the battlefield tapped. We also have better ways to give Kaalia of the Vast haste that don't involve massive life payments.


* I've only been playing EDH for about a month, but I feel like our general comes out faster than a lot of them and has a more immediate effect, meaning that the deck really wants to play quite fast. I've added Exalted Angel and Grinning Demon, partially for the lulz of it but also because I'm fond of the deck being one that can play early threats and continue to do so via Kaalia and her crew. Exalted seems a little tiny for this format (saaad faaace) but again, lifelink is lifelink ne? Is this just a really fragile plan on the whole, or does being able to break sooner than other aggressive decks really mean much in this format? I guess to edit and clarify - since Exalted and Grinning can get played lots of different ways - Kaalia, face-down, straight-up - and they all represent a fairly aggressive turn 3/4, would you say that they keep the deck doing what it's intended to do (play guys that are fast, numerous and big)?

This deck definitely does its thing faster than most EDH decks, and it's built on speed at the expense of resiliency and the late game. I've been trying to move the deck away from big, stupid beaters towards creatures that have useful effects/abilities attached to them, which makes Grinning Demon a bad choice, IMO. Exalted Angel could be useful, but I think Baneslayer Angel is a better lifelinker. If you want a second lifelinker, Exalted Angel is your woman.


* It seems like the mana acceleration is "only fair"; is that a fault of the format or the colors we're in? Is there more mana ramping that the deck could be doing? This is a big ? for me because like I said, just getting into EDH and still trying to wrap my head around the proper speed of the format.

I wouldn't call Mana Crypt and Sol Ring "fair", but yes, without green it's hard to accelerate your mana production. Your only real option is to run lots of mana artifacts. I've stayed away from artifact acceleration that costs more than two because I can't use them to speed up Kaalia of the Vast. This could change if I repeatedly find myself unable to keep Kaalia on the table and need to actually cast my creatures to win.

I could run rituals, but rituals are usually terrible in EDH. If I add more acceleration, I'm going to have to cut creatures/tutors and I'm already at my minimum for creatures. In a singleton format, tutors are too good to cut.

TsumiBand
07-04-2011, 01:20 PM
Yeah Grinning Demon is sort of a roflcopter. It doesn't change the rules of the game and it doesn't have evasion, it just happens to be Yet Another Morph Creature that Kaalia could also put into play. At last count I had 3 guys with Morph (Akroma, Exalted, Grinning) and I was actually thinking about putting the pre-con's Zoetic Cavern back in just so sometimes I could be like "omg lol u tried to Mortify my lands", which is genuinely 'only cute'.

I dunno, Morph is one of my favorite dumb mechanics in Magic, I figured I could just throw the junk in here and see if I profit, heh. It is a Timmy-ass thing to do, but this seems to be the format for it. I will say being able to play a face-down creature was the thing that won me my last game of EDH, although the circumstances of that match were definitely completely ridiculous. Basically, running Morph guys seems like a decent enough way to make sure the deck has a number of early plays - whether it's tutoring / Transmuting for Greaves or ramping up with Signets and junk like that, or just playing a FDC and making target opponent wonder whether they want to blow their removal on that thing, or the Kaalia tech next turn. I dunno, shrug, like I said, it's kind of a romantic strategy, but EDH seems to like that sort of thing.

The only other Morph guy that I found that fits Kaalia's requirements was Imperial Hellkite, and that guy looks really, really bad. I don't think I even want to get to enough mana to flip that dude over, I hope I Geddon or Boom/Bust or something similarly dumb before I get to 8, cuz that means all the Green players on the board got to like 15 :/

Kuma
07-04-2011, 04:50 PM
If that's how you want to play EDH, that's fine. Just keep in mind that my playgroup is absolutely cut-throat and I'm trying to build the most optimized and powerful Kaalia list possible.

TsumiBand
07-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Well the thing of it is, I've got two very different sets of people I play with - basically, Timmy on Thursday and Spike on Sunday. :/ Since my resources are limited I'll probably be running this deck something like, 80% 'teched out' and 20% 'little kid'. So yeah, Morph spells and dumb things like Razia's Purification are pretty much my 'little kid' spells, but I wanted to ask questions about mana accel and tutoring to suit the Spike in me.

That's why I wanted to ask about things like mana accel and life loss - playing Signets and things like Hall of the Bandit Lord *feel* really weird to me as a Spike-ish player, but apparently they are quite abundantly played. I'll definitely be tearing out junk like Dread Cacodemon and throwing in things that promote more resiliency (Deathless Angel, Adarkar Valkyrie etc...) as soon as I have the means.

Kirika
07-06-2011, 02:05 PM
I like it. Some similarities to what I quickly cobbled my Kaalia deck together opening the deck and putting extras from my binders in there and haven't actually had time to open workstation and actually spend some time with what to put in there so your base helps a lot for expanding the mana base and other options that I didn't think of or didn't have on hand.

I find Kaalia does die pretty darn fast if you don't have equipment ready and even then so acceleration to cast creatures normally is important.

I have a few things in mine I didn't see in yours that you might want to try.

Whispersilk cloak - unblockable + shroud is pretty good for kaalia or any beater. In my playgroup I find people have fliers to block kaalia so you this cloak is pretty good to keep her swinging and your fatties coming into play for free.

Plague Wind - nukes everyone elses creatures but yours. Bit expensive on casting cost though.

Desolation Angel - Doesn't work with Kaalia but blows up the lands with a creature attached. disadvantage is the high casting cost with the kicker. Guess its the cheaper alternative to Ravages of War.

Emeria Angel - makes chump blockers and goes well with the War part of Angel of Strife.

Luminarch Assension - it makes 4/4 angels and isn't too hard to activate. Also good with Angel of Strife.

I'll have to spend some time on workstation and post my optimal list when I have time.

Malchar
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Decree of Annihilation (cycled) is great for land destruction, but it might cost too much for this deck to be able to cast it. When do you usually find yourself curving out?
p.s. too bad Desolation Angel (my favorite) doesn't work.

TsumiBand
07-06-2011, 09:50 PM
Actually, in my experience I get to 6 quite often. Decree of Annihilation is a dodgy bint though, I'd much rather be tutoring for Geddon, Ravages or Boom/Bust (which coincedentally - Shred Memory is rather fond of that spell, gives it something to tutor for besides Greaves or a Signet). With all the Geddon effects listed above, I'm sort of surprised not to see Flagstones of Trokair in the main. I run one and it plays pretty nicely with the above spells, as well as some Timmy ass stuff like Razia's Purification.

One card I am just not having much love for is Bladewing the Risen. Maybe it just hasn't happened yet, where I find myself really needing his Breath of Life effect, but I'd just as soon that dude be something else. Pumping all my Dragons is only better than Firebreathing if I have 3 Dragons in play, so his other effect rarely matters a damn either. Wouldn't regular Rorix be just as nasty, or some other icky dagron or demon with a big nasty effect? Demon of Death's Gate? Spirit of the Night (errata says it's a Legendary Demon Spirit)? With all the artifact acceleration running around, Furnace Dragon seems pretty rofl.

Kuma
07-07-2011, 04:51 PM
I have a few things in mine I didn't see in yours that you might want to try.

Whispersilk cloak - unblockable + shroud is pretty good for kaalia or any beater. In my playgroup I find people have fliers to block kaalia so you this cloak is pretty good to keep her swinging and your fatties coming into play for free.

I don't have that problem. There's always been someone in my playgroup who doesn't have fliers for Kaalia to hit. My other problem with Whispersilk Cloak is Equip :2:. It's nearly impossible to cast Kaalia of the Vast and equip her with Whispersilk Cloak in the same turn which leaves her open to removal. Swiftfoot Boots from M12 will be a much better second equipment, IMO.


Plague Wind - nukes everyone elses creatures but yours. Bit expensive on casting cost though.

There's plenty of demons and dragons that nuke everyone else's creatures. Nine mana is way too much.


Desolation Angel - Doesn't work with Kaalia but blows up the lands with a creature attached. disadvantage is the high casting cost with the kicker. Guess its the cheaper alternative to Ravages of War.

I like that Desolation Angel is a 'geddon plus a creature, but seven mana is a lot for a 'geddon. I'd probably run Boom // Bust first if I wanted a third 'geddon.


Emeria Angel - makes chump blockers and goes well with the War part of Angel of Strife.

I've never needed chump blockers. It's my opponents who've wished for chump blockers. Emeria Angel is nice with Archangel of Strife, but not to the point where I'd spend a tutor for the interaction. I'm not convinced it's better than any angels, demons, or dragons I'm already running


Luminarch Assension - it makes 4/4 angels and isn't too hard to activate. Also good with Angel of Strife.

Luminarch Ascension is just an all around fantastic EDH card. I considered it while building the deck, but perhaps I was too quick to dismiss it. I thought it was one of those "oh look, this card makes angels, so it should go in my angel deck despite having no synergy with the general" cards that EDH players like to run without thinking about it. Your post made me realize that it's a good card that fits in well with the beatdown theme of the deck. I'll try to fit it in.


I'll have to spend some time on workstation and post my optimal list when I have time.

Please do. I'd love to see some other Kaalia lists.


Decree of Annihilation (cycled) is great for land destruction, but it might cost too much for this deck to be able to cast it. When do you usually find yourself curving out?
p.s. too bad Desolation Angel (my favorite) doesn't work.

Yeah, I think Boom // Bust is better. I love Desolation Angel and I wish it fit better too.


Actually, in my experience I get to 6 quite often. Decree of Annihilation is a dodgy bint though, I'd much rather be tutoring for Geddon, Ravages or Boom/Bust (which coincedentally - Shred Memory is rather fond of that spell, gives it something to tutor for besides Greaves or a Signet).

Good point about Shred Memory. I didn't think that it could tutor for Boom // Bust. Just an FYI, but often the best thing to tutor for with Shred Memory is Demonic Tutor. It essentially becomes :2::b::b::b: search for any card, but you can split up the mana over two turns. That's why Shred Memory is an EDH staple.


With all the Geddon effects listed above, I'm sort of surprised not to see Flagstones of Trokair in the main.

Great catch. That was a total oversight on my part after adding mass land destruction. I'll add one.


One card I am just not having much love for is Bladewing the Risen. Maybe it just hasn't happened yet, where I find myself really needing his Breath of Life effect, but I'd just as soon that dude be something else. Pumping all my Dragons is only better than Firebreathing if I have 3 Dragons in play, so his other effect rarely matters a damn either. Wouldn't regular Rorix be just as nasty, or some other icky dagron or demon with a big nasty effect? Demon of Death's Gate? Spirit of the Night (errata says it's a Legendary Demon Spirit)? With all the artifact acceleration running around, Furnace Dragon seems pretty rofl.

Bladewing the Risen is one of the weakest creatures in the deck. I haven't been satisfied with him either, but I haven't played enough games to be sure I want to take him out. Furnace Dragon doesn't work when put onto the battlefield with Kaalia.

Changes:

- Mountain
- Plains
- Baneslayer Angel

+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Bojuka Bog
+ Victory's Herald

After M12:

- Xathrid Demon
- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Swamp

+ Aegis Angel
+ Rune-Scarred Demon
+ Swiftfoot Boots

Victory's Herald is a better lifelinker than Baneslayer Angel. There's little reason to run Basics in this deck. There's no Blood Moon in my metagame, and the deck can still run off of artifacts and red mana.

Yosei, the Morning Star lock wasn't practical. Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos the Defilier was a better combo, and only needed the general as a third piece. I never tutored for the combo, so Xathrid Demon is no longer necessary.

Still not sure where to put in Luminarch Ascension.

TsumiBand
07-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Good point about Shred Memory. I didn't think that it could tutor for Boom//Bust. Just an FYI, but often the best thing to tutor for with Shred Memory is Demonic Tutor. It essentially becomes :2::b::b::b: search for any card, but you can split up the mana over two turns. That's why Shred Memory is an EDH staple.

Yeah, turns out Boom//Bust's CMC is 2 and 6. I actually had someone yell for a judge the last time I did that at the local card shop - dude swore that it was 8cmc, turns out he was just grasping at straws trying not to get blown out. Word to the wise, don't be a douchehammer when you just Genesis Wave'd for 33 the game before. Anyway...
Once I acquire a few more tutors I'll be Shred Memory --> Demonic Tutor for sure. For now it's only grabbing cards that it can actually grab, if that makes sense.


Bladewing the Risen is one of the weakest creatures in the deck. I haven't been satisfied with him either, but I haven't played enough games to be sure I want to take him out. Furnace Dragon doesn't work when put onto the battlefield with Kaalia.

Agree with Bladewing the Risen, I'm on the fence in a big way. Facepalm on Furnace Dragon, guess I should rtfc. Although to be fair, we run enough artifacts that it wouldn't be impossible to just, like, cast it for 5, although that probably sucks since we want to keep whatever "shroud boots" we happen to have in play.



Changes:

- Mountain
- Plains
- Baneslayer Angel

+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Bojuka Bog
+ Victory's Herald

After M12:

- Xathrid Demon
- Mana-Charged Dragon
- Swamp

+ Aegis Angel
+ Rune-Scarred Demon
+ Swiftfoot Boots

Victory's Herald is a better lifelinker than Baneslayer Angel. There's little reason to run Basics in this deck. There's no Blood Moon in my metagame, and the deck can still run off of artifacts and red mana.

Yosei, the Morning Star lock wasn't practical. Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos the Defilier was a better combo, and only needed the general as a third piece. I never tutored for the combo, so Xathrid Demon is no longer necessary.

Still not sure where to put in Luminarch Ascension.

I couldn't imagine taking out Baneslayer - of all the Kaalia-friendly fatties one could play she seems like she has the most reasonable cmc. Victory's Herald seems like a beast though. Strongly considering adding it to my lifelinkers.

One dude I don't think will work too well in my meta is Malfegor. Motherfuckers were casting Bribery and blowing me out with my own dude, I had just insane board position to boot. Land Tax + Malfegor is some kind of combo - especially when you don't even have to run Malfegor. So he might sit on the bench for a minute if I keep getting Bribery'd. :(

Kirika
07-08-2011, 12:35 PM
This is my current RL list with m12 changes. Dunno what gets fired for Aegis Angel. I need to order some of the more obscure older angels and demons that I don't have also and maybe improve the mana base. I guess I could pull Imperial Seal from my Vintage deck and Moat from Enchantress but don't really feel like it for a casual deck. I don't run any geddon effects besides desolation angel cause my playgroup really hates when someone blows up all the lands and you instantly are the target. Blowing up lands if a body is attached like Desolation Angel or Sunder Titan is more acceptable. Whispersilk cloak is necessary in my play group because more fliers and more chances to draw protecton.

Kaalia of the Vaast

Lands (36)
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Bloodstained Mire
Bojuka Bog
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dragonskull Summit
Godless Shrine
Flagstones of Trokair
Marsh Flats
Sacred Foundry
4 Mountain
Plateau
4 Plains
Reflecting Pool
Rupture Spire
4 Swamp
Scrubland
Skalding Tarn
Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
Strip Mine
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Verdant Catacombs
Volrath's Stronghold

Mana Rocks (9)
Boros Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Cold Steel Heart
Felwar Stone
Mindstone
Orhov Signet
Rakdos Signet
Sol Ring

Tutors (6)
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Lilana Vess
Shred Memory
Vampiric Tutor

Draw (8)
Mind's Eye
Night's Whisper
Necropotence
Phyrexian Arena
Sensei's Diving Top
Skeletal Scrying
Sign in Blood
Yawgmoth's Will

Equipment (3)
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots (was dark steel plate)
Whisperwind Cloak

Creatures
Angels (15)
Akroma Angel of Wrath
Akroma Angel of Fury
Archangel of Strife
Angelic Arbiter
Angel of Despair
Baneslayer Angel
Desolation Angel
Emeria Angel
Iona Shield of Emeria
Platinum Angel
Razia, Boros Archangel
Reya Dawnbringer
Tariel Reckoner of Souls
Twilight Shepherd
Victory's Herald

Demons (3)
Oni of Wild Places
Rakdos the Defiler
Rune-Scared Demon (was Plaguewind)

Dragons (13)
Ancient Hellkite
Bladewing the Risen
Bogarden Hellkite
Flameblast Dragon
Horde Smelter Dragon
Knollspine Dragon
Mana Charged Dragon
Mordant Dragon
Oros the Avenger
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Thunder Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star

Utility Creatures (2)
Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker
Mother of Runes
Stoneforge Mystic

Utility Enchantments (3)
Debtor's Knell
Luminarch Ascension
Oblivion Ring

Kuma
07-08-2011, 05:33 PM
I couldn't imagine taking out Baneslayer - of all the Kaalia-friendly fatties one could play she seems like she has the most reasonable cmc. Victory's Herald seems like a beast though. Strongly considering adding it to my lifelinkers.

I know you're building your deck with different criteria than mine, but I feel like I only need one lifelinker (if that) for my group. I'm not worried about casting my creatures, and even if I was, Victory's Herald only costs :w: more than Baneslayer Angel. I'd also rather have guys that do stuff than guys who just hit for damage.


One dude I don't think will work too well in my meta is Malfegor. Motherfuckers were casting Bribery and blowing me out with my own dude, I had just insane board position to boot. Land Tax + Malfegor is some kind of combo - especially when you don't even have to run Malfegor. So he might sit on the bench for a minute if I keep getting Bribery'd. :(

Yeah, I cut Malfegor too. It cost me one game, but it was a weird, fluke situation. I didn't even think about the repercussions from him getting Bribery'd. That makes me feel even better about the decision.

@Kirika

I like a couple of things about this list. Liliana Vess deserves consideration, especially if Insidious Dreams is making the cut. Necropotence seems too good not to run, although :b::b::b: could be difficult. Debtors' Knell is a card I've wanted to run for a while that I should probably find room for. Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion is a card I've seen in a lot of lists that I could probably make room for in the mana base. I'm just leery of running too many ETB tapped and colorless lands.

Malchar
07-09-2011, 04:04 AM
I couldn't imagine taking out Baneslayer - of all the Kaalia-friendly fatties one could play she seems like she has the most reasonable cmc. Victory's Herald seems like a beast though. Strongly considering adding it to my lifelinkers.

One dude I don't think will work too well in my meta is Malfegor. Motherfuckers were casting Bribery and blowing me out with my own dude, I had just insane board position to boot. Land Tax + Malfegor is some kind of combo - especially when you don't even have to run Malfegor. So he might sit on the bench for a minute if I keep getting Bribery'd. :(

Isn't baneslayer angel also a liability with an opposing bribery? Also, there's a new card rumored in the next block named Bloodgift Demon. It's not that much of a bomb, but it has useful card advantage.

TsumiBand
07-09-2011, 11:01 AM
Isn't baneslayer angel also a liability with an opposing bribery? Also, there's a new card rumored in the next block named Bloodgift Demon. It's not that much of a bomb, but it has useful card advantage.

If you look at most of the Kaalia lists they are really pretty 'Angel heavy', most of the good Demons are in there because they have an ability that opens them up to unique plays, like Kaalia + Oni of Wild Places + Rakdos, or Oni of Wild Places + Knollspine Dragon (see the OP for a list of synergies, most of them are to do with bouncing a Demon primarily, as opposed to constantly sending it into the red zone). So yeah, it might kind of suck to get your Baneslayer Bribery'd, but really, it's never great to get *anything* Bribery'd. Baneslayer I could play around; Malfegor proved himself to be a huge setback.

Maybe the answer is to dick with the opponent's library. I do run one copy of Hide//Seek... heh. "EOT, Seek you? Bribery? Cool?" "wtf"

Also, Bloodgift Demon seems like a flying Confidant with way less drawback. Definite possibility in my book.

Kuma
07-10-2011, 01:34 PM
Isn't baneslayer angel also a liability with an opposing bribery? Also, there's a new card rumored in the next block named Bloodgift Demon. It's not that much of a bomb, but it has useful card advantage.

Good point about Baneslayer Angel. I'm currently running 13 dragons and three demons, so I'd hate to get that taken out of my deck. First strike also invalidates a lot of creatures we run.

Bloodgift Demon is absolutely a bomb. Phyrexian Arena for zero mana (with Kaalia) that attacks for 4 every turn? I'd run 10 if I could.


Maybe the answer is to dick with the opponent's library. I do run one copy of Hide//Seek... heh. "EOT, Seek you? Bribery? Cool?" "wtf"

I'd run Stranglehold before I'd run Hide // Seek if I wanted a Bribery hoser.


Also, Bloodgift Demon seems like a flying Confidant with way less drawback. Definite possibility in my book.

Bloodgift Demon is definitely going in my list. I can think of half a dozen cards he's better than off the top of my head.

You guys are seriously undervaluing Bloodgift Demon. He's the easiest auto-include since Rune-Scarred Demon.

TsumiBand
07-10-2011, 11:52 PM
I guess I didn't grok the interaction between Stranglehold and Bribery before, but really most of the time Stranglehold seems bad unless you're playing against a tutor-heavy deck (like um, this one, heh). Hide // Seek was sort of a 'joke answer' to the situation described above; however, it seems to do two things which are good in EDH; (a) tucks things (puts them on the bottom of the library) (b) exiles an opponent's single copy of some horrible thing.

I mean I could be the total noob here and just rocking some terribad card that doesn't do anything (an option that I'm always open to, heh), but it seems to me Hide // Seek is never dead, at worst it will do something dumb like tuck an opponent's Lightning Greaves / Debtor's Knoll / problem enchantment / etc, and it will always be good for removing a problem card from an opponent's deck. But really, I think the right answer to "Bribery your Malfegor" is probably just, "Don't run stupid Malfegor".

Also @ Baneslayer being a liability; I don't think the Angel : Demon-and-Dragon ratio is high enough to where an opponent somehow possessing our Baneslayer Angel actually throws the game for us. I run a Baneslayer, and every time an opponent had the opportunity to Bribery something away from me they always did something that mitigated a threat (Angel of Despair) or just gave them raw card advantage (Malfe-goddamn-gor). Getting your Baneslayer stolen doesn't just lose you the game right there; getting blown out by your own personal Plague Wind probably does. Especially since most of the good Demon/Dragons are going to be at their best when being abused with Kiki-Jiki or Oni of Wild Places, I don't think the threat of a stolen Baneslayer Angel outweighs the benefits of playing her.

Malchar
07-11-2011, 03:23 AM
Seek is -1 card advantage. However, Strangehold turns off the opponent's fetch, tutors, and other random things like Birbery. Besides, once you actually resolve seek, is bribery really the most valuable card to get? Edit: If it is, then might as well run both seek and stranglehold.

TsumiBand
07-11-2011, 11:14 AM
Look, heh, like I said, Hide // Seek was sort of a 'lol not really' response to Bribery. I was just mentioning that I ran it, I had gathered from various trips around the Internet that 'tuck spells' were useful in this format. Seems like Extracting is okay when everything's a one-of; I can submit to the idea that it's card disadvantage, even in a deck that plays quite a lot of draw spells and is about to get a huge gift in Bloodgift Demon.

I think the truth of the matter is, my personal build is still too close to the pre-con and I need to add the good Black tutors, which is just a money issue for me right now. I'm actually writing my letter to my former employer right now, "Deeeeear FdEx - plz give me a new rout suun becuz my EDH deks are terribad and my card sleeves r old as god hisself. also my mortgage mite defalt, omglol. yrs truly, tsumi"

One other card I've been liking, which actually was in the pre-con is Duregar Hedge-Mage. Sort of like a weird Hull Breach with a body.

Kuma
07-11-2011, 12:08 PM
I guess I didn't grok the interaction between Stranglehold and Bribery before, but really most of the time Stranglehold seems bad unless you're playing against a tutor-heavy deck (like um, this one, heh).

Most good EDH decks are tutor heavy, especially when you count fetchlands. Survival of the Fittest is also one of the best cards in EDH. Stranglehold's usefulness is really going to depend on your playgroup. I wouldn't run it if you're only worried about being Bribery'd. Getting targeted by Bribery sucks, but without Malfegor it shouldn't be game over.


Hide // Seek was sort of a 'joke answer' to the situation described above; however, it seems to do two things which are good in EDH; (a) tucks things (puts them on the bottom of the library) (b) exiles an opponent's single copy of some horrible thing.

I mean I could be the total noob here and just rocking some terribad card that doesn't do anything (an option that I'm always open to, heh), but it seems to me Hide // Seek is never dead, at worst it will do something dumb like tuck an opponent's Lightning Greaves / Debtor's Knoll / problem enchantment / etc, and it will always be good for removing a problem card from an opponent's deck.

Oh, Hide // Seek is a good card for sure. Tuck effects are good, but it's the counterspells like Hinder and Spell Crumple, or creature removal like Oblation and Chaos Warp that are really good since they deal with generals.

The Seek half is pretty weak, as removing potential threats instead of actual threats rarely impacts a game. This is why Millstone, Extract, and Extirpate are bad cards.

Hide // Seek may be good, but I doubt it's in the best 64 or so cards we could be running.


Also @ Baneslayer being a liability; I don't think the Angel : Demon-and-Dragon ratio is high enough to where an opponent somehow possessing our Baneslayer Angel actually throws the game for us. I run a Baneslayer, and every time an opponent had the opportunity to Bribery something away from me they always did something that mitigated a threat (Angel of Despair) or just gave them raw card advantage (Malfe-goddamn-gor). Getting your Baneslayer stolen doesn't just lose you the game right there; getting blown out by your own personal Plague Wind probably does. Especially since most of the good Demon/Dragons are going to be at their best when being abused with Kiki-Jiki or Oni of Wild Places, I don't think the threat of a stolen Baneslayer Angel outweighs the benefits of playing her.

Here are the creatures in my list who aren't invalidated in combat by Baneslayer Angel

Iona, Shield of Emeria
Admonition Angel
Angel of Despair
Rakdos the Defiler
Chancellor of the Annex
Angelic Arbiter
Archangel of Strife
Deathless Angel
Razia, Boros Archangel

That means Baneslayer Angel is invalidating 2/3 of my creatures against its controller including Kaalia of the Vast. If your opponents are taking Angel of Despair they're doing it wrong unless you're comboing them with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Rakdos the Defilier, etc.

What are the benefits of playing Baneslayer Angel? She's not the biggest beater, and you don't really need the life. Kaalia of the Vast is one of the most aggro decks in EDH. Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk don't run lifegain because they put their opponents on the defensive from the start of the game. Kaalia is EDH's "Goblins" deck.

Kirika
07-13-2011, 07:41 PM
Was playing my Godo deck the other day and I cast Insurrection FTW. Maybe insurrection is worth including in Kaalia? It is kinda expensive but it can win the game if successfully cast.

Kuma
07-14-2011, 12:50 PM
Was playing my Godo deck the other day and I cast Insurrection FTW. Maybe insurrection is worth including in Kaalia? It is kinda expensive but it can win the game if successfully cast.

Insurrection is a fantastic EDH card, but I don't think this is the deck for it. Eight mana is a ton, especially when you're trying to blow up all the lands. My opponents don't run a ton of creatures, and the ones they do run often get killed by Scourge of Kher Ridges, Admonition Angel, Oros, the Avenger, etc. Insurrection is the kind of card that's strong against this deck more so than it fits in our strategy.

Atog
07-14-2011, 02:39 PM
Hi, just discovered your deck and i think it would be a blast to play. So couple questions ->. Have you considered adding Sneak Attack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5594)? Seems sweet here, especially when you haven't Kaalia available (tucked or costs too much to play again). Saw sweet combo for this deck: Brion Stoutarm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247298) + Sneak Attack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5594)?. RR = x combat damage + same amount from Brion. Yeah, Brion isn't dragon, angel or demon but seems sweet. That works well also with Kiki. Also you get life by same time.

Also what is your opinion about Sword of Light and Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47453)? Have ability to protect Kaalia, reuse your died creatures and get life seems good to me. It's also tutorable via Stoneforge and Steelshaper's Gift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51078). Protecting kaalia from getting tucked by Condemn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205098) looks fine.

Oh well, got some other questions too, but they will follow when i get your opinion about these :)

TsumiBand
07-15-2011, 12:00 PM
I think Brion + Sneak Attack is probably another deck in the making, tbh.

I mean, if the goal of the deck is to have a protected Kaalia with a couple beaters in play and a couple more in hand and then Geddon away people's tempo, I think Sneak Attack just robs us of what would have been board position. Also there's a couple guys like Rakdos who we don't really want to have to activate their "when this attacks" ability, and Kaalia cheats around that. There's also a *lot* of dudes you want to hold onto and use many turns, like Aegis Angel, Steel Hellkite, just to name two off the top of my head while I'm practically out the door :P :P

I like the idea of Brion + Sneak Attack though. I'm betting a deck exists which uses that combo - if not there should be, it seems pretty okay.

Malchar
07-15-2011, 04:19 PM
Insurrection is great because it helps you if you're losing. If someone else "goes off" and gets a bunch of stuff in play, you can alpha strike him. Also, if you have some kind of sacrifice outlet similar to Fallen Angel, you can make sure that no one gets their creatures back.

Kuma
07-16-2011, 02:28 PM
Hi, just discovered your deck and i think it would be a blast to play. So couple questions ->. Have you considered adding Sneak Attack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5594)? Seems sweet here, especially when you haven't Kaalia available (tucked or costs too much to play again). Saw sweet combo for this deck: Brion Stoutarm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247298) + Sneak Attack (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5594)?. RR = x combat damage + same amount from Brion. Yeah, Brion isn't dragon, angel or demon but seems sweet. That works well also with Kiki. Also you get life by same time.

Also what is your opinion about Sword of Light and Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=47453)? Have ability to protect Kaalia, reuse your died creatures and get life seems good to me. It's also tutorable via Stoneforge and Steelshaper's Gift (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51078). Protecting kaalia from getting tucked by Condemn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205098) looks fine.

Oh well, got some other questions too, but they will follow when i get your opinion about these :)

Sword of Light and Shadow would be pretty good. It doesn't protect Kaalia of the Vast as well as Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots, but it does allow for getting back some dead creatures. I'll see if I can fit it in. As for Sneak Attack/Brion Stoutarm, this isn't the deck for that. I'd rather just cast my guys and keep them around. If you play one vs. one EDH, Sneak Attack might be worth it, but in multiplayer you need the staying power.

EDIT:

- Moat

+ Boom // Bust

This deck is too aggro to need Moat. Mass land destruction is too good in this deck, so I added the next best one in Boom // Bust.

Kuma
07-21-2011, 04:58 PM
I'm starting to realize that this deck can't easily win a competitive multiplayer game without blowing up all lands at some point. To that end:

- Victory's Herald
- Angelic Arbiter
- Yawgmoth's Will

+ Impending Disaster
+ Catastrophe
+ Cataclysm

I've yet to cast a meaningful Yawgmoth's Will, since my opponents or I are usually dead well before I have the mana. There's also not a lot to cast out of the graveyard when your spells cost 6-8 mana.

Cataclysm seems like a bad idea, but if cast the turn Kaalia of the Vast is active it shouldn't hurt you at all. Even if you have to sacrifice a creature or two, you'll likely still be in better shape than your opponents.

EDIT:

- Bladewing the Risen

+ Liliana Vess

Bladewing was widely regarded as one of the weakest creatures in the deck. Liliana Vess is awesome.

Kuma
08-24-2011, 11:57 AM
Found this little gem:

Thoughts of Ruin

It definitely needs to be in the 99 somewhere, but I'm not sure what to cut. I could replace one of the lesser 'geddons like Impending Disaster, Boom / Bust, Catastrophe, or Cataclysm, but I think we need as many 'geddon effects as possible. I don't really want to cut an angel, demon, or dragon either because I want consistency once I have an active Kaalia of the Vast.

What do you guys think? What should be cut for Thoughts of Ruin? A non-cheatable creature, non 'geddon card would be best, but I'll take any and all suggestions.

Malchar
08-24-2011, 02:17 PM
Not sure if you're still running these because I used your original list, but they are the most cuttable cards in my opinion:
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls - cool but it relies on the opponents having stuff and it's random. More often, Reya probably gets better creatures into play.
Chancellor of the Annex - underwhelming ability relative to other bombs.
Hellkite Charger - ability costs too much mana given that you want to destroy all lands.

If you don't want to cut creatures, here are some of the other weak cards:
Gamble - worse than other tutors.
Insidious Dreams - relatively more expensive/risky than other tutors.
Oblivion Ring - card is overplayed, it just gives them a target for their enchantment removal. It could be return to dust or vindicate which actually kill things permanently. Or you could just rely on angel of despair. Unless your meta has a lot of graveyard recursion, exiling something doesn't matter that much, and there are better solutions to this, such as withered wretch.
Lightning Greaves - already have swiftfoot boots and tons of tutors to find it.

You could also try running blood moon/magus yourself since you say you can play around it. It definitely messes up a lot of other people's decks more than it does yours. It complements the land destruction in a way (my Intet deck only has 4 basics and if they get blown up then I could be in trouble).

Kuma
08-24-2011, 03:15 PM
Not sure if you're still running these because I used your original list

Everytime I change the deck I edit the opening post. The list on the front page is my current one.

First off, thanks for taking the time to respond with well-thought out suggestions.


Tariel, Reckoner of Souls - cool but it relies on the opponents having stuff and it's random. More often, Reya probably gets better creatures into play.
Chancellor of the Annex - underwhelming ability relative to other bombs.
Hellkite Charger - ability costs too much mana given that you want to destroy all lands.

These, along with Yosei, the Morning Star are among the weakest creatures in the deck. Tariel and Yosei likely won't make it past Innistrad as one of them is going for Bloodgift Demon at a minimum.


Gamble - worse than other tutors.

Diabolic Tutor is the worst tutor in the deck and probably the first one I'd cut. Gamble has been really good for me.


Insidious Dreams - relatively more expensive/risky than other tutors.

True, but there's also way more upside. It may turn out not to be worth it, but I'm not ready to cut this one yet.


Oblivion Ring - card is overplayed, it just gives them a target for their enchantment removal. It could be return to dust or vindicate which actually kill things permanently. Or you could just rely on angel of despair. Unless your meta has a lot of graveyard recursion, exiling something doesn't matter that much, and there are better solutions to this, such as withered wretch.

You're probably right that Oblivion Ring should be Vindicate. I keep thinking of a game where I won because I could O-Ring Blightsteel Colossus and that's probably skewing my opinion. I also like that you can get Oblivion Ring with Enlightened Tutor. I like having a piece of tutorable removal, but this is a good candidate to be cut.


Lightning Greaves - already have swiftfoot boots and tons of tutors to find it.

I can't possibly cut this. It's better than Swiftfoot Boots. That one mana makes a huge difference.


You could also try running blood moon/magus yourself since you say you can play around it. It definitely messes up a lot of other people's decks more than it does yours. It complements the land destruction in a way (my Intet deck only has 4 basics and if they get blown up then I could be in trouble).

In general, you're absolutely right. My playgroup has way too many basics right now, though I highly recommend Moon effects to anyone running Kaalia.

I'm probably going to cut one of Yosei, the Morning Star, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, or Oblivion Ring. More on this later.

Kuma
09-02-2011, 10:10 AM
Likely Innistrad changes:

- Oblivion Ring
- Yosei, the Morning Star
- Tariel, Reckoner of Souls
- Windbrisk Heights
- Tainted Field

+ Thoughts of Ruin
+ Bloodgift Demon
+ Reaper from the Abyss
+ Clifftop Retreat (W/R M10 Dual)
+ Isolated Chapel (W/B M10 Dual)

http://walkingplanes.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/bloodgift-demon.png?w=357
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123252&d=1314676848

AlexAI
09-06-2011, 11:19 PM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123607&d=1315195421

This guy looks nice, as well.

Kuma
09-07-2011, 10:32 AM
Yeah, Balefire Dragon is definitely going in. I'll probably cut Hellkite Charger, Vampiric Dragon, Razia, Boros Archangel, or Knollspine Dragon.

I'm not sure which one to cut though.

Hellkite Charger has bad synergy with all the land destruction. However, if you can activate his ability it's easy to deal 20+ damage the first time and even more the second time.

Vampiric Dragon is nice for picking off guys, but he needs mana to do it and Balefire Dragon hits everything for free.

I've never activated Razia, Boros Archangel's ability. Vigilance and haste have never been relevant either.

Knollspine Dragon draws you a sickening amount of cards, but he's kind of win-more and can't be put in off Kaalia without Hellkite Charger. You need an active Kaalia for him to be good, but if you have active Kaalia, you're probably winning. He's also bad with all the land destruction, but he's potentially amazing with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

It's looking like Razia, Boros Archangel is the cut, but I'm open to other suggestions.

Esper3k
09-08-2011, 12:42 PM
So I was forced into building a Commander deck through various peer pressure and threats from my play group (after years of holding out).

Kaalia is the first general that I chose (the maiden voyage of my first iteration got a T4 table scoop!).

Looking through forums to see what other people have been playing, I see Kuma has already built a deck as well!

Anyways, a couple questions:

1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?

2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it? Generally speaking, if you can get an attack in with a Hellkite equipped with the Sword, that should be game over (since you're pretty much generating infinite attack phases).

3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).

4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.

Esper3k
09-08-2011, 12:42 PM
So I was forced into building a Commander deck through various peer pressure and threats from my play group (after years of holding out).

Kaalia is the first general that I chose (the maiden voyage of my first iteration got a T4 table scoop!).

Looking through forums to see what other people have been playing, I see Kuma has already built a deck as well!

Anyways, a couple questions:

1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?

2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it? Generally speaking, if you can get an attack in with a Hellkite equipped with the Sword, that should be game over (since you're pretty much generating infinite attack phases).

3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).

4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.

Malchar
09-08-2011, 01:08 PM
1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?

The equipment are important for the deck. You really need to keep the general alive in order to function properly. Also, you have the option of moving it to a fatty later, which is quite strong.

2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it?

Probably going to remove hellkite charger because the whole point of the deck is to sneak fatties in without having the land to play them. It's difficult to have enough to activate the charger, so the sword doesn't help any.

3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).

Flameburst is rather weak, but it serves a specific utility. You can tutor for it if you need to spot remove things, otherwise it's just another random fatty that you might have in your hand to play for free when you connect with the general.

4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.[/QUOTE]

It's ok, but it's hard to tutor for the abolisher and boots and still cast kaalia on turn 3 or 4. If you can cast kaalia on turn 3, you dodge almost half the counterspells anyway (assuming half your opponents are still on 2 land, half are on 3 land, and that most counterspells cost 3 mana). Also, it's much easier to tutor for equipment than it is to tutor for the abolisher. If you could only have one, I think the boots are better since you dodge spot removal, but it might depend on the meta.

Kuma
09-08-2011, 01:58 PM
So I was forced into building a Commander deck through various peer pressure and threats from my play group (after years of holding out). Kaalia is the first general that I chose (the maiden voyage of my first iteration got a T4 table scoop!).

Welcome to the club!


Anyways, a couple questions:

1) Are you playing Stoneforge just to tutor for Boots/Greaves?

Pretty much. Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are incredibly important to the strategy because it's really hard to keep a Kaalia on the table when your opponents know what your deck can do. They also speed the deck up a turn with haste. I often use even my better tutors to get Lightning Greaves because it's just that important.


2) If you're playing Hellkite Charger, why not throw Sword of Feast and Famine in with it? Generally speaking, if you can get an attack in with a Hellkite equipped with the Sword, that should be game over (since you're pretty much generating infinite attack phases).

Hellkite Charger is already on the verge of being cut because seven mana is a ton for this deck. I think the better strategy is to get Kaalia active and then blow up all lands. If your group forbids land destruction, Hellkite Charger (and Knollspine Dragon) are much better cards. The problem with Sword of Feast and Famine is that you need to have an equipped Charger plus seven mana to go infinite, and that's a tall order. I'm usually not casting my angels, demons, and dragons, which makes having the extra mana mostly irrelevant.


3) I haven't really liked Charger and Flameblast Dragon because they don't do anything until your next attack step (I tend to like creatures that affect the board immediately).

Yeah, Charger and Flameblast Dragon are two of the weaker creatures still in the deck. They'd be gone if I could find anything better. They'd be gone already except Yosei, the Morning Star, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, and Bladewing the Risen are worse.


4) Have you considered Grand Abolisher as additional protection? With him around, you can safely cast Khalia and get a pair of boots on her without any worries.

Malchar got it right when he said that it's hard to tutor for Lightning Greaves and Grand Abolisher and still cast Kaalia turn three or four. It can be awkward just tutoring for the boots if you're relying on a Signet for acceleration. I like the idea, but if I'm tutoring for something to protect Kaalia, it's going to be Lightning Greaves.

Esper3k
09-08-2011, 03:37 PM
Yeah, I like the Khalia focused builds too. Do you pretty much give up on actually hard casting any of your fatties and try to power them out with only Khalia?

Kuma
09-08-2011, 05:48 PM
That's the gameplan. If I'm casting fatties, something likely went wrong.

DarkForce
09-22-2011, 11:49 PM
Hey, I would like to note that you deck construction is quite impressive, and wanted to offer a few changes that you might find interesting:

Your lands are mostly solid choices, however, I would recommend cutting Hall of the Bandit Lord and Bojuka bog as both come into play tapped, and Hall don't even offer you a color of mana. Obviously giving Kaalia haste is something that is quite advantageous, but this requires you also have the 3 colors required for her, plus you have to play Hall the turn or two turns before you play Kaalia, plus you have to pay three life. And once you have done all of this, Hall isn't going to be beneficial to anything else because you will be casting most all of your other creatures with Kaalia. As for Bojuka, exiling 1 players graveyard can be good, but, this doesn't help in the early game, it only works on one player, and its not worth a land coming into play tapped and only producing black mana.

My suggestion for replacements would be replacing those lands with Tainted Field and Kor Haven. Tainted Field produces two colors of mana. Kor Haven is awesome.

As for artifact acceleration, I would suggest you stay close to artifacts that cost two mana or less so you can play Kaalia on turn 3 more often. This being the case, I would recommend removing Coalition Relic from the deck. Naturally it is a great card, but replacing it with a 2 drop artifact that can produce mana would enable you to cast Kaalia on turn two more often.

My suggestion: Marble Diamond

Lastly, I think there are a couple of creatures that shouldn't be in the deck; mainly Vampiric Dragon and Hellkite Charge. Both would normally be good in this deck, however, with the addition of land destruction, these cards will become of little to no use to you. These plus others including Flameblast Dragon, Hoard-smelter Dragon, and Scourge of Kher ridges require a lot of mana to utilize. Whereas they do give you great card advantage, their abilities don't have great synergy with land destruction.

My suggestion; The stars from Kamigawa are quite powerful cards, and I believe you used to run the Yosei, Xathrid Demon, Reya combo. I would recommend that you remove some of the creatures with heavy mana cost abilities and replace them with Xathrid Demon, Yosei, the Morning Star, Ryusei, the Falling Star, and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star. Running these with Reya will give you incredible field advantage, and you can easily tutor out the combo.

If you think the Stars are too slow or just not powerful enough on their own, you could even run better angels/demons/dragons that have non-mana reliant abilities. Ex. Dragon Mage, Angelic Arbiter, Victory's Herald, Kilnmouth Dragon, or some other cards.

Hope this helps.

Kuma
09-23-2011, 11:00 AM
Your lands are mostly solid choices, however, I would recommend cutting Hall of the Bandit Lord and Bojuka bog as both come into play tapped, and Hall don't even offer you a color of mana. Obviously giving Kaalia haste is something that is quite advantageous, but this requires you also have the 3 colors required for her, plus you have to play Hall the turn or two turns before you play Kaalia, plus you have to pay three life. And once you have done all of this, Hall isn't going to be beneficial to anything else because you will be casting most all of your other creatures with Kaalia. As for Bojuka, exiling 1 players graveyard can be good, but, this doesn't help in the early game, it only works on one player, and its not worth a land coming into play tapped and only producing black mana.

You're right about Bojuka Bog. In a deck this aggressive, it isn't worth entering the battlefield tapped to be able to remove someone's graveyard. I have a love/hate relationship with Hall of the Bandit Lord. It's absolutely crucial for this deck to be swinging with Kaalia of the Vast on turn three or four, even at the cost of nine or more life. The problem is, you have to play Hall of the Bandit Lord turn one or the ETB tapped screws you. It has been in and out of the deck several times. The fact it isn't useful for casting my other creatures isn't really relevant because I plan to blow up all the lands instead of casting my guys.

Hall of the Bandit Lord probably won't last in the deck long term, but I think I'm going to keep it for now. Bojuka Bog needs to be something else.


My suggestion for replacements would be replacing those lands with Tainted Field and Kor Haven. Tainted Field produces two colors of mana. Kor Haven is awesome.

I absolutely hate Tainted Peak and Tainted Field in this deck. I usually only have one or two swamps out, and often I don't have any, especially post Armageddon. That said, Tainted Field is the best of bad options, and I'll probably keep it for now only because Bojuka Bog is worse.

Kor Haven doesn't fit with what this deck is trying to do. I want to play offense not defense. I'd run Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion first.


As for artifact acceleration, I would suggest you stay close to artifacts that cost two mana or less so you can play Kaalia on turn 3 more often. This being the case, I would recommend removing Coalition Relic from the deck. Naturally it is a great card, but replacing it with a 2 drop artifact that can produce mana would enable you to cast Kaalia on turn two more often.

You're absolutely right about this, and it's something I've been meaning to do. I want to redo the mana base to focus on two-drop mana rocks, possibly cutting a land or two in the process. I'll post the changes when I've had time to think about them.


Lastly, I think there are a couple of creatures that shouldn't be in the deck; mainly Vampiric Dragon and Hellkite Charge. Both would normally be good in this deck, however, with the addition of land destruction, these cards will become of little to no use to you. These plus others including Flameblast Dragon, Hoard-smelter Dragon, and Scourge of Kher ridges require a lot of mana to utilize. Whereas they do give you great card advantage, their abilities don't have great synergy with land destruction.

Vampiric Dragon, Hellkite Charger, and Flameblast Dragon are some of the weakest creatures in the deck for sure, largely because they're terrible with the land destruction. These guys will likely be the first to leave when new creatures get printed.

I hope I haven't been giving the illusion that I'm always blowing up all the lands. In most games, that doesn't happen. It's more important to get Kaalia swinging, and I'm usually using my limited tutors to get Lightning Greaves/Rakdos the Defiler. Other times I can't get Kaalia active at all, and it's a desperate move to blow up all lands without an active Kaalia. I've also had multiple land destruction cards get countered in a single game.

I want land destruction to be plan A, but I also don't want to be a slave to it. Hoard-Smelter Dragon and Scourge of Kher Ridges are fantastic cards if I'm not blowing up all the lands. Scourge is probably a top-five creature in the deck, certainly no lower than top ten.


My suggestion; The stars from Kamigawa are quite powerful cards, and I believe you used to run the Yosei, Xathrid Demon, Reya combo. I would recommend that you remove some of the creatures with heavy mana cost abilities and replace them with Xathrid Demon, Yosei, the Morning Star, Ryusei, the Falling Star, and/or Kokusho, the Evening Star. Running these with Reya will give you incredible field advantage, and you can easily tutor out the combo.

I don't think the Kamigawa dragons are better than my mana-intensive ones. When I ran Yosei, the Morning Star, he died exactly once. The Yosei, Xathrid Demon, Reya Dawnbringer combo was janky, and I never set it up. Xathrid Demon is terrible outside of the combo, too. It was much easier to get Rakdos the Defiler/Oni of Wild Places, and I think it's a better combo.

I can't easily tutor out the combo. I only run 13 tutors. I'm likely spending one to get Lightning Greaves, which doesn't leave me much to get those combo pieces. I could probably set it up with Rune-Scarred Demon/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, but I could probably do better things faster.

You didn't realize, probably because it defies all logical sense, that Kokusho, the Evening Star is banned in EDH.


If you think the Stars are too slow or just not powerful enough on their own, you could even run better angels/demons/dragons that have non-mana reliant abilities. Ex. Dragon Mage, Angelic Arbiter, Victory's Herald, Kilnmouth Dragon, or some other cards.

I've ran every card on this list at some point except Kilnmouth Dragon. I've found them all lacking. I don't want to refill my opponents hands with Dragon Mage. Then again, people like to sculpt their hands in EDH and I've seen Wheel of Fortune wreck people's days. I'll take Dragon Mage under consideration.

Angelic Arbiter is the kind of card we want to be running: a creature with a controlling effect. It looks amazing when you read it. It does nothing once it's on the battlefield.

Victory's Herald doesn't fit for the same reasons Kor Haven doesn't. It's a defensive card in an offensive deck. If it worked the turn it gets put on the battlefield with Kaalia, I'd probably run it. As is, it's too slow even to be a silver bullet.

I don't think I run enough dragons for Kilnmouth Dragon.


Hope this helps.

It did. Thank you.

Esper3k
09-23-2011, 03:41 PM
So I've been playing only this deck since the last time I've posted and have some thoughts on some cards I've liked/disliked. I'm doing a very similar build to yours, Kuma - pretty much try and power out a fast Kaalia as fast as possible with Greaves/Boots or some sort of haste effect.

I went with more 2 drop accelerants as well and more importantly, ones that generate colored mana. For me, the goal is to have 1WBR on T3 or to have 3WBR on T4 (letting you cast Greaves + Kaalia).

I am currently running Grim Monolith and Mana Vault but sadly, I'm starting to become less happy with them since I simply can't use all that colorless mana early game and mid-late game, they're generally stuck tapped so I can't even use them to replay Kaalia.

I've liked Coalition Relic even though it costs 3 because for our 3 color general, it allowing you to get 2 separate colors of mana is fairly crucial.

2 Drop Accelerants I've liked:
Pentad Prism
Sphere of the Suns

Sure they have charge counters, but they get you whatever colored mana you need. Prismatic Lens has been alright as well, letting you filter mana from Mana Crypt / Sol Ring into useful colored mana.

Fatties to drop:
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I have a love/hate relationship with Skithiryx. On one hand, he's just so damn cool looking. On the other hand, he takes 3 turns to kill someone. However, he has been useful for me when I've had to take out multiple players at once (I have Skithiryx single handedly killing someone while Kaalia and the rest of the team go at another guy).

Scourge of Kher Ridges: Amazing, simply amazing. Hilarious against people who run X/2 generals as well.

Eternal Dragon: He's been pretty solid for me. Plainscycles to whatever dual land I need or drops to be another stupid beater.

Sunblast Angel: Obviously, doesn't play nice with Kaalia's ability, but surprisingly good for just playing pre-combat.

Malfegor: Sometimes, you just have to Edict the hell out of your opponents. Great one to drop when you're out of fatties and you're stuck with acceleration and lands in your hand.

Other Cards

Erratic Portal: I've been playing this instead of Oni of Wild Places since it's been pretty useful for recurring other guys like Angel of Despair and Twilight Shepherd. I also play Bogarden Hellkite as well.

Fervor: Another haste effect that's good if you're on the T4 Kaalia plan. Also works nicely with Mother of Runes. On a side note, I've really liked Hall of the Bandit Lord as well.


I'm really looking forward to the Innistrad guys since I really want more guys that do things other than just attack. I'm running both Akromas, Razia, and Skithiryx right now who I'd love to replace with guys who are more suppressive on opponents.

Kuma
09-25-2011, 02:04 PM
I've liked Coalition Relic even though it costs 3 because for our 3 color general, it allowing you to get 2 separate colors of mana is fairly crucial.

2 Drop Accelerants I've liked:
Pentad Prism
Sphere of the Suns

Those are good choices. Since I'm reworking my mana base, I'd love to see your mana base, or even your entire list.


Fatties to drop:
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: I have a love/hate relationship with Skithiryx. On one hand, he's just so damn cool looking. On the other hand, he takes 3 turns to kill someone. However, he has been useful for me when I've had to take out multiple players at once (I have Skithiryx single handedly killing someone while Kaalia and the rest of the team go at another guy).

Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon seems like he could be useful. I like the idea of sending him after one player while you hit someone else with regular damage. I think I'm going to give him a shot.


Eternal Dragon: He's been pretty solid for me. Plainscycles to whatever dual land I need or drops to be another stupid beater.

Eternal Dragon is an interesting call, but I'm not sure his ability to find mana makes up for him being just a big, stupid beater.


Malfegor: Sometimes, you just have to Edict the hell out of your opponents. Great one to drop when you're out of fatties and you're stuck with acceleration and lands in your hand.

Malfegor has his uses, but the reason I cut him was that often I didn't want to put him on the battlefield at the cost of my hand and my opponents would Bribery him out of my deck to great effect.


Other Cards

Erratic Portal: I've been playing this instead of Oni of Wild Places since it's been pretty useful for recurring other guys like Angel of Despair and Twilight Shepherd. I also play Bogarden Hellkite as well.

I never thought to use Erratic Portal in here. I don't know if I'd replace Oni of Wild Places with it, but I'll see about including it somewhere.


Fervor: Another haste effect that's good if you're on the T4 Kaalia plan. Also works nicely with Mother of Runes.

I used to run this, but it got cut to up the creature count. I did like the card though.

Malchar
09-25-2011, 09:41 PM
Need for speed might also be useful for anyone looking for an alternative haste source. Presumably, sacrificing land is mitigated by the fact that you're probably going to be able to destroy them all anyway.

Esper3k
09-26-2011, 09:32 AM
Need for speed might also be useful for anyone looking for an alternative haste source. Presumably, sacrificing land is mitigated by the fact that you're probably going to be able to destroy them all anyway.

Need for Speed looks interesting! I'll definitely give it a shot if I think I need more haste effects.

I made some changes again after playing this weekend - I decided I really need to disrupt my opponents a little more. My meta is completely covered with fast / disruptive combo (me and the Godo guy are actually probably the slowest decks) like Oonas, Sharuum, Zur, and Arcuum (you'll see some maindeck choices I have purely for my meta).

The UW decks have been also really annoying for me to battle since they either counter Kaalia or StP/Path her when I attack or try and equip her, so I have more protection I want to run.

Here's my current list I'm messing with that I'll try out this week. I also don't have an Imperial Seal or Grim Tutor, so those aren't in my list (but the should be if I had them):

Lands (35)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Volrath's Stronghold
Spinerock Knoll
Command Tower
City of Brass
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
Arid Mesa
Windswept Heath
Flooded Strand
Marsh Flats
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Caves of Koilos
Scrubland
Fetid Heath
Godless Shrine
Isolated Chapel
Rugged Prairie
Battlefield Forge
Clifftop Retreat
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Graven Cairns
Sulfurous Springs
Badlands
Blood Crypt
Dragonskull Summit
Plains
Swamp

The basics are for Blood Moons and Path to Exiles that fly around in my meta.

Artifact Acceleration (10)
Sphere of the Suns
Coalition Relic
Talisman of Indulgence
Rakdos Signet
Boros Signet
Orzhov Signet
Prismatic Lens
Pentad Prism
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring

Disruption / Land Destruction (11)
Shattering Spree (there is a ridiculous amount of artifacts in my meta)
Swords to Plowshares
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Boom / Bust
Cataclysm
Path to Exile
Strangehold (this card is amazing vs so many generals that are popular in my meta - Godo, Zur, Arcuum, even Shruum and Oona tend to have a lot of tutors)
Armageddon
Austure Command (I feel this card is too powerful and versatile in multiplayer not to run)
Catastrophe

I really want to fit a Mortify in here somewhere. Too many times I wish I had an EoT instant speed answer to Necropotence!

Tutors (8)
Stoneforge Mystic
Diabolic Tutor
Liliana Vess
Shred Memory
Enlightened Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Steelshaper's Gift
Demonic Tutor

Protection / Haste (7)
Grand Abolisher (This guy has been good for me for slow rolling Kaalia + Greeves on the same turn. He also tends to be too shitty for people to waste their removal on.)
Mother of Runes
Silence
Orim's Chant
Lightning Greeves
Swiftfoot Boots
Fervor

I want to give Silence / Chant a try because when you're setting up for a Hasty Kaalia, it's pretty obvious to the rest of the board so someone just holds their countermagic or removal and hurp derp rapes you when you go for it. I'm stealing a book from the TES guys and saying "fuck you, you can't cast spells and I go off!" :D Since I'm not using Scepter, I think Silence is actually much stronger than Chant here.

I'd also like to try something like a Mind Twist to fuck up a blue player's hand before going off.

Misc (3)
Crucible of Worlds (Helps to recover from your own LD. Of course it's nasty as hell with Waste/Strip lock)
Erratic Portal (Bounce Rakdos, Angel of Despair, Rune-Scarred Demon, for fun and hilarity! Also actually protects your guys and messes with your opponents (makes it so they always have to leave 2 mana up to protect their general as you can EOT bounce their guy, then bounce again on your turn if they leave only 1 mana open)
Phyrexian Arena

I have very little actual card draw in my version. I kinda want to play Promise of Power just because it's so thematic to our deck :)

The Good (11)
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Adarkar Valkyrie
Angel of Despair
Sunblast Angel
Desolation Angel (Yeah this isn't very good, but it's my second favorite MTG card in the game, so I had to include her in here. Plus, she did get my T4 table scoop in the very first incarnation of this deck)
Platinum Angel
Reya Dawnbringer
Aegis Angel
Deathless Angel
Twilight Shepherd
Admonition Angel

The Bad (4)
Malfegor
Rune-Scarred Demon
Rakdos the Defiler
Bloodgift Demon

I actually don't think I like Reaper from the Abyss because it's so uncontrollable if your opponents don't have creatures out. However, in a meta where there are more creature decks, I'd definitely run it.

The Ugly (10)
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Eternal Dragon
Mordant Dragon
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Bogardan Hellkite
Oros, the Avenger
Steel Hellkite (This is hilarious to ETutor up)
Flameblast Dragon
Balefire Dragon

With running 11 dragons (including Malfegor), I'm almost tempted to run Bladewing, the Risen, but I hate it when you get him with nothing to recur.

As always, suggestions are welcome and appreciated!

Admiral_Arzar
09-26-2011, 12:33 PM
Esper, you should play Zodiac Dragon just to further increase the price tag of your deck :P.

Esper3k
09-26-2011, 12:52 PM
Esper, you should play Zodiac Dragon just to further increase the price tag of your deck :P.

I had considered it when I used to play Sneak Attack. Those two seemed to work well together.

Sneaky Show decks should play Zodiac Dragon!

It also makes me sad now that you know about my Chant tech. I was going to spring it on you next time we play.

Admiral_Arzar
09-26-2011, 02:16 PM
It also makes me sad now that you know about my Chant tech. I was going to spring it on you next time we play.

LOL. Chant isn't as good against my deck now that I cut Mind's Desire. I got blown out by Silence at one point when I cast a huge Desire, which was unpleasant to say the least.

GGoober
09-26-2011, 04:26 PM
lol. Chant isn't as good against my deck now that i cut mind's desire. I got blown out by silence at one point when i cast a huge desire, which was unpleasant to say the least.

SILENCE fool!

Admiral_Arzar
09-27-2011, 12:00 PM
SILENCE fool!

http://troll.me/images/jackie-chan-whut/jackie-chan-whut.jpg

Kuma
09-28-2011, 10:22 AM
Thanks for posting your list, Esper3k. If you want to keep updating it, I can link to it in the opening post.

A couple of things:

Why, why, why aren't you running Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Copying Rune-Scarred Demon, Angel of Despair, Bogardan Hellkite, etc. is insane.

I appreciate what you're trying to do with Crucible of Worlds, but Strip Mine lock has been terrible for me in multiplayer. Picking off lands after an Armageddon is overkill. Recovering your own lands after an Armageddon is usually unnecessary.

I think Coldsteel Heart, at least, is better than Prismatic Lens.

Pentad Prism is a really good idea. I'm going to try it and see if it's as good as it looks.

You've definitely given the deck a more controlling role than I have with cards like Stranglehold, Austere Command, Swords to Plowshares, and Path to Exile. Did you find straight aggro not to be fast enough to defeat your group? I'm starting to think my list isn't fast enough for my group, but my group is combo-centric and competitive as hell. Right now my group is running Experiment Kraj, Animar, Soul of Elements, and Sharuum the Hegemon.

Esper3k
09-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Thanks for posting your list, Esper3k. If you want to keep updating it, I can link to it in the opening post.

A couple of things:

Why, why, why aren't you running Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker? Copying Rune-Scarred Demon, Angel of Despair, Bogardan Hellkite, etc. is insane.

I appreciate what you're trying to do with Crucible of Worlds, but Strip Mine lock has been terrible for me in multiplayer. Picking off lands after an Armageddon is overkill. Recovering your own lands after an Armageddon is usually unnecessary.

I think Coldsteel Heart, at least, is better than Prismatic Lens.

Pentad Prism is a really good idea. I'm going to try it and see if it's as good as it looks.

You've definitely given the deck a more controlling role than I have with cards like Stranglehold, Austere Command, Swords to Plowshares, and Path to Exile. Did you find straight aggro not to be fast enough to defeat your group? I'm starting to think my list isn't fast enough for my group, but my group is combo-centric and competitive as hell. Right now my group is running Experiment Kraj, Animar, Soul of Elements, and Sharuum the Hegemon.

Yeah I keep forgetting to put in Kiki-Jiki! I'll add him and give him a spin. I hadn't been liking Bogarden Hellkite as much, but with stuff like Erratic Portal and Kiki-Jiki, he may stay on the team.

Crucible may get cut again - I haven't been seeing it all that much. Needs more testing for me.

Prismatic Lens I liked when I had more colorless mana accelerants like Grim Monolith, so it had let me filter that extra colorless mana. You're probably right and isn't as needed now that I'm running more artifact mana that generates actual colored mana.

I feel I've had to slow things down and take a slightly more controlling role exactly because I haven't been fast enough. It's been pretty tough for me to stick Kaalia in the first place (she oftentimes gets countered or Plow/Pathed when I do actually land her, then try and get boots on her). Even when I do, I'm finding that she's simply not doing enough - I'll beat the crap out of someone, then they combo off and kill me. After my first attempt at Kaalia gets thwarted, I find myself lacking ways to stop others from winning, so I started fiddling around with a little more control.

Stranglehold is definitely something I'm playing just for our meta (our Godo player also main decks it as well as Boil) since we have so many blue / combo decks floating around. Zur and Arcuum pretty much can't win with it in play and it slows down Sharuum and Oona as well if you can get it out fast enough to stop their tutoring.

Sure, I'll keep updating that post with my list as I make changes!

DarkForce
09-29-2011, 05:37 PM
Ever though of running Blackcleave cliffs?

Esper3k
09-29-2011, 08:37 PM
Ever though of running Blackcleave cliffs?

It was a consideration, but for me, it's only better than the shock lands if you get it in your opener. With only 1 copy and such a huge deck, odds of that are fairly low.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Esper3k
10-15-2011, 09:02 PM
So I got a chance to play some more games over the past few weeks and here are some thoughts on some of the cards:

Grand Abolisher: It's been very good in most of the games I've played it in. If it eats removal, that's one less spot removal spell that can get Kaalia. Most of the time, especially in multiplayer, people have just left it alone because they are generally more worried about others. This means, you get to pretty much resolve everything for free. Today, I also happened to get off an Austere Command with him around and caught 2 Tops in it!

Silence / Orim's Chant: These have been hit or miss and need more testing. They've been pretty decent actually offensively time walking opponents on key turns, but it's been pretty tough to get them in hand + haste effect + shroud to protect Kaalia.

The instant speed removal has been pretty good - there's always a target to StP / PtE.

Stranglehold: Continues to be good, even against decks that don't have tutor generals. Pretty much the way I have been seeing the card is that: 1) Good Commander decks have lots of tutoring, so Stranglehold is amazing there. 2) You don't really have to worry much about bad Commander decks that don't have a lot of tutoring.

Kuma
10-17-2011, 10:20 AM
Esper3k, how many people do you usually play EDH with at a time? I usually play with two other people, sometimes three. When there are four of us, I have a really hard time winning, because it's so hard for this deck to kill three people before someone finds a sweeper. Having three opponents makes it easier for them to counter an Armageddon effect.

Is this why you took a more controlling approach? I thought about slowing the deck down a little to give it more resiliency, but since most of my games are with two opponents, I figured it wasn't worth it.

I'll have to try Grand Abolisher, Stranglehold and possibly Austere Command since they've been working out so well for you.

Esper3k
10-17-2011, 10:52 AM
The games I play vary since at the store I play at, there will probably be about a pool of around 4-6 other players who have an EDH deck with them at any given time.

A lot of times during our Legacy tournaments, people will be EDH dueling in between rounds to kill time while waiting for other matches to finish.

Generally though, I'd say the average for us is 3-5 players. At 6, things start to get a little bit slow and bogged down (even at 5 you start to see this, I think), from my experience.

Yeah, I took a more controlling approach exactly because with so many people around, I tend to have a really hard time sticking Kaalia + getting to attack with her (ie, you need to have a Haste effect plus dodge countermagic + dodge pinpoint removal). If I run her out on T3, she's pretty much guaranteed to die or get countered.

For me, in the larger games, opposing sweepers haven't been too much of an issue since in our meta, they just aren't that popular. Most of the decks in our meta are more combo oriented, so a lot of the large scale control elements are usually cut for cheap spot removal or countermagic, so generally I'm the one playing the most sweepers, or if there's someone else running them, they're the first guy I gun after. If I can hold off on playing Kaalia for a turn or so, I can usually get in a few swings with her and get to 6 mana, so I can replay / attack with her immediately after a sweeper.

Kuma
01-07-2012, 01:41 PM
- Phyrexian Arena
- Insidious Dreams
- Liliana Vess
- Ambition's Cost

+ Thoughtseize
+ Duress
+ Inquisition of Kozilek
+ Benevolent Bodyguard

This deck really, really needs to protect Kaalia of the Vast. It also needs to do more on turn one. I'm avoiding Silence and Orim's Chant for now because the deck doesn't need to be any slower.

Kuma
01-25-2012, 04:30 PM
Dark Ascension changes:

- Hellkite Charger
- Flameblast Dragon
- Vampiric Dragon

+ Moonveil Dragon
+ Linvala, Keeper of Silence
+ Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon

Hellkite Charger almost never got activated with all the mass land destruction. Not once did I ever use Flameblast Dragon's Blaze ability. Vampiric Dragon was the worst of the creature killers.

Moonveil Dragon should lead to lots of extra damage, even if most of my mana is destroyed. Linvala, Keeper of Silence shuts off so many ridiculous strategies that I can't believe I wasn't running her already. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon should let me kill a player with poison counters while I'm killing another with damage.

I'm also thinking about running Village Bell-Ringer and possibly Splinter Twin to give the deck a combo finish in case the Kaalia of the Vast plan doesn't work out. I'm also considering Kormus Bell, due to its ability to lock out my opponents from using their lands along with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Balefire Dragon would also be able to destroy all of a player's lands, and Oros, the Avenger, and Scourge of Kher Ridges would function as mass land destruction.

Thoughts?

wagenfratz
01-25-2012, 07:18 PM
been checking this deck out for awhile now and actually built my own from a lot of the ideas here - mainly from yours, kuma. a big thank you. it's lot of fun.

i'm not sure i understand how balefire, oros, and scourge help in land destruction....i think i'm missing something.

also, how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive or a tutor?

Aggro_zombies
01-25-2012, 07:43 PM
been checking this deck out for awhile now and actually built my own from a lot of the ideas here - mainly from yours, kuma. a big thank you. it's lot of fun.

i'm not sure i understand how balefire, oros, and scourge help in land destruction....i think i'm missing something.

also, how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive or a tutor?
If all lands are 1/1 black creatures thanks to Kormus Bell and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, all of those dragons will be able to kill the opponent's land-creatures.

wagenfratz
01-25-2012, 07:54 PM
ahhh...duh....maybe if i had read the entire card. thanks.


plus, post should have said "how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive FOR a tutor?"

Kuma
01-26-2012, 02:23 PM
"how do you feel about increasing ambition? too expensive FOR a tutor?"

Yeah, Increasing Ambition is too expensive for a tutor, at least in this deck. You usually want to tutor to help set up an active Kaalia of the Vast, and Increasing Ambition is too slow for that.

DarkForce
04-02-2012, 11:13 PM
You should DEFINITELY run Avacyn, Angel of Hope when she is released.

TsumiBand
04-02-2012, 11:29 PM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129642&stc=1&d=1333415410

Throw some boots on this chick and blow up everyone else's world with Geddon/Vengeance/Wrath/etc etc etc. Seems real good.

Kuma
04-03-2012, 12:26 PM
Yeah, Avacyn, Angel of Hope is definitely going in. At the very least, she's better than Aegis Angel.

Malchar
04-03-2012, 12:36 PM
Might want to keep using aegis angel though in addition to Avacyn, since she protects kaalia while still being a 5/5 flier. It already does everything you want to do, and Avacyn is just another copy of it which is even better.

Kuma
04-03-2012, 12:55 PM
Might want to keep using aegis angel though in addition to Avacyn, since she protects kaalia while still being a 5/5 flier. It already does everything you want to do, and Avacyn is just another copy of it which is even better.

I will probably keep using Aegis Angel. I was just saying that if I can't find anything else to cut (although I probably will find something else), I can just upgrade the Aegis Angel slot with Avacyn, Angel of Hope.

Honestly though, Aegis Angel hasn't been that great for me given that I almost always have Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots on Kaalia of the Vast. I don't think there's been a single game where its ability has been relevant. I doubt that will be true of Avacyn, Angel of Hope.

TsumiBand
04-03-2012, 04:11 PM
I will probably keep using Aegis Angel. I was just saying that if I can't find anything else to cut (although I probably will find something else), I can just upgrade the Aegis Angel slot with Avacyn, Angel of Hope.

Honestly though, Aegis Angel hasn't been that great for me given that I almost always have Lightning Greaves or Swiftfoot Boots on Kaalia of the Vast. I don't think there's been a single game where its ability has been relevant. I doubt that will be true of Avacyn, Angel of Hope.

Speaking anecdotally, I did keep a Stranglehold in play for longer than I should have done with Aegis Angel, but Avacyn would've done the same thing, plus you know, everything else too.

Zlatzman
04-03-2012, 05:20 PM
You could just target one of your lands with Aegis Angel before you play Armageddon. With Avacyn mass land destruction gets rather crazy.

kombatkiwi
04-09-2012, 01:19 AM
This deck just keeps getting more and more stuff
Griselbrand
4BBBB
7/7 Flying Lifelink Demon
Pay 7 Life: Draw 7 Cards

TsumiBand
04-09-2012, 11:38 AM
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129833&d=1333944194

Man this deck has a billion cards coming out right now. I think that this guy probably one-ups "draw cards equal to damages dealt" dragon, for the fact that it doesn't depend on jank like Oni of Wild Places. It could just be my shitty luck but the whole "abuse Oni of Wild Places and red guys that do stuff when they ETB" trick has never worked for me.

Kuma
04-09-2012, 12:24 PM
I knew when I came to this thread, someone would have suggested Griselbrand. :smile:

Where to start? Holy fuck, this guy is broken in EDH. Like, best creature in this deck broken. I read this guy and my brain broke. In this deck, he's Yawgmoth's Bargain for :0: that doesn't make you skip draws. Oh, did I mention he lifelinks?

Lifelinks. A Yawgmoth's Bargain that lifelinks.

In this deck, Griselbrand is the easiest auto-include in the history of auto-includes.

Henceforth, he shall be referred to as Griselbroken. :cool:



Man this deck has a billion cards coming out right now. I think that this guy probably one-ups "draw cards equal to damages dealt" dragon, for the fact that it doesn't depend on jank like Oni of Wild Places. It could just be my shitty luck but the whole "abuse Oni of Wild Places and red guys that do stuff when they ETB" trick has never worked for me.

Yeah, Griselbrand is better than Knollspine Dragon for sure. Oni of Wild Places shenanigans doesn't happen often, but it should remain in the deck. There's too much potential for awesome there, and besides, there are lots of other crappy angels, demons, and dragons to cut.

My shitlist right now is, in no particular order:

Deathless Angel
Knollspine Dragon
Reya Dawnbringer
Aegis Angel
Bloodgift Demon
Adarkar Valkyrie
Twilight Shepherd

Any of these cards could go for new angels, demons, and dragons. I hope to replace at least half these guys when Avacyn Restored is fully spoiled.

TsumiBand
04-09-2012, 06:19 PM
I knew when I came to this thread, someone would have suggested Griselbrand. :smile:

Where to start? Holy fuck, this guy is broken in EDH. Like, best creature in this deck broken. I read this guy and my brain broke. In this deck, he's Yawgmoth's Bargain for :0: that doesn't make you skip draws. Oh, did I mention he lifelinks?

Lifelinks. A Yawgmoth's Bargain that lifelinks.

In this deck, Griselbrand is the easiest auto-include in the history of auto-includes.

Henceforth, he shall be referred to as Griselbroken. :cool:



Yeah, Griselbrand is better than Knollspine Dragon for sure. Oni of Wild Places shenanigans doesn't happen often, but it should remain in the deck. There's too much potential for awesome there, and besides, there are lots of other crappy angels, demons, and dragons to cut.

My shitlist right now is, in no particular order:

Deathless Angel
Knollspine Dragon
Reya Dawnbringer
Aegis Angel
Bloodgift Demon
Adarkar Valkyrie
Twilight Shepherd

Any of these cards could go for new angels, demons, and dragons. I hope to replace at least half these guys when Avacyn Restored is fully spoiled.

Decisions, decisions... heh.

My first thought is that Griselbrand pretty well trumps Bloodgift Demon, but card drawing is card drawing and I'd just as soon play Necropotence AND Phyrexian Arena. Aegis Angel and Avacyn have a similar relationship, in that Aegis is the 'Mini-me' to Avacyn. But as the need to protect Kaalia increases (both because the threats we can drop are that much better, and the pressure to kill her will be greater), I think the right answer is ultimately going to be to run both, to keep her alive under more circumstances than not. Reya is sort of unimpressive with all the indestructible the deck can grant, and Knollspine is already on my shitlist.

Since I think I'm going to value indestructibility over recursion (Avacyn over Reya), in my opinion cards like Adarkar Valkyrie and Twilight Shepherd are looking less impressive. You might have another take on it, but the way I see it this deck is setting itself up to depend on Kaalia a little *too* much, meaning the need to protect her is high and the need to take advantage of the indestructible assets that angels are granting en masse by exploiting 1-sided sweepers is increasingly important. Recursion is a slow-trip compared to indestructible, except in the case of a giant sacrifice effect, which AFAICR is generally limited in scope when compared to Wrath effects.

Kuma
04-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Decisions, decisions... heh.

My first thought is that Griselbrand pretty well trumps Bloodgift Demon, but card drawing is card drawing and I'd just as soon play Necropotence AND Phyrexian Arena. Aegis Angel and Avacyn have a similar relationship, in that Aegis is the 'Mini-me' to Avacyn. But as the need to protect Kaalia increases (both because the threats we can drop are that much better, and the pressure to kill her will be greater), I think the right answer is ultimately going to be to run both, to keep her alive under more circumstances than not. Reya is sort of unimpressive with all the indestructible the deck can grant, and Knollspine is already on my shitlist.

Since I think I'm going to value indestructibility over recursion (Avacyn over Reya), in my opinion cards like Adarkar Valkyrie and Twilight Shepherd are looking less impressive. You might have another take on it, but the way I see it this deck is setting itself up to depend on Kaalia a little *too* much, meaning the need to protect her is high and the need to take advantage of the indestructible assets that angels are granting en masse by exploiting 1-sided sweepers is increasingly important. Recursion is a slow-trip compared to indestructible, except in the case of a giant sacrifice effect, which AFAICR is generally limited in scope when compared to Wrath effects.

Reya Dawnbringer is definitely the worst creature still in the deck and the first one out. After that, it gets a little murky. I agree that indestructibility > recursion, but no mana > mana, especially when we're trying to blow up all the lands.

Adarkar Valkyrie is pseudo-indestructible with the added benefit of being able to steal opposing creatures after one of our creatures kills them. I think it stays for now.

Deathless Angel grants indestructibility, but at the cost of WW. I think in my entire history of playing the deck I've made one creature indestructible with it. It's probably gone.

The only other possible cut forebearing any more playable angels, demons, or dragons is Twilight Shepherd. It grants resiliency to Wrath of God effects and occasionally allows neat tricks with fetchlands/Armageddon, but I don't think I've ever pulled that off. I think the potential is greater than the crappy indestructible ability.

Right now, I think the changes are:

- Reya Dawnbringer
- Deathless Angel

+ Avacyn, Angel of Hope
+ Griselbrand

TsumiBand
04-11-2012, 12:44 AM
Derf.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129932&stc=1&d=1334116925

Yeah, because what a deck that drops a derpy number of huge flyers needs is a way to make them more huge and more resilient. Haha. It's like this whole set is just made to pump up Kaalia in Commander, I'd eyeroll but I bought the precon too so whatever

Kuma
04-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Derf, indeed. That card is the hotness on multiple levels.

Question is, do we cut Aegis Angel, Knollspine Dragon, or Twilight Shepherd?

Knollspine Dragon requires a ton of set up, but the rewards are huge.

Twilight Shepherd gives the deck some resiliency to sweepers and potentially lets you get your lands back after an Armageddon

Aegis Angel lets you make Kaalia of the Vast indestructible for no mana investment.

What do you guys think?

TsumiBand
04-11-2012, 11:22 AM
Derf, indeed. That card is the hotness on multiple levels.

Question is, do we cut Aegis Angel, Knollspine Dragon, or Twilight Shepherd?

Knollspine Dragon requires a ton of set up, but the rewards are huge.

Twilight Shepherd gives the deck some resiliency to sweepers and potentially lets you get your lands back after an Armageddon

Aegis Angel lets you make Kaalia of the Vast indestructible for no mana investment.

What do you guys think?

Honestly, I feel like Gisela is "both sides" of Archangel of Strife, and it might be worth thinking about cutting that dude for this one. Consider that Archangel gives opponents the option of choosing what's best for them; this card flat out says that we deal more damage and they deal less. To us. Only us. We hit all of our opponents for 2x damage, from ALL sources - Beacon of Destruction is 10 damage for 5 mana and recursive, and that Dragon that gives your team Firebreathing is now doubly effective. Meanwhile, they can only come at us for half damage; but they still get to fight each other for 2x damage.

Obviously their effects are additive, but where Archangel of Strife will sometimes give the opponents an advantage they didn't have before, Gisela will never do that. I would strongly consider cutting Archangel of Strife for Gisela, since honestly those other cards you mention are going a long way towards keeping Kaalia online. Gisela does this too, by making her that much more difficult to just kill. I want to play both, because more aggro is good and their effects in tandem would be nuts. But I suspect the right answer is to cut Archangel.

Kuma
04-11-2012, 12:47 PM
I agree that Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is better than Archangel of Strife. The question then becomes, "Is Archangel of Strife better than Knollspine Dragon, Twilight Shepherd, and Aegis Angel?

I actually won a game against a friend of mine who was playing my Kaalia of the Vast deck because his Archangel of Strife gave me exactly enough damage to kill him. Despite that, I feel like I'm almost always getting more out of Archangel of Strife than my opponents. When both cards are out, you're essentially getting +6/+0 from "war" and your opponents are getting either +1/+0 or +2/+0 from "war" when they attack you. They're getting +6/+0 from "war" if they attack each other. Talk about incentives...

There's no arguing that Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is better than Archangel of Strife, but I think I'd rather have both. I'm leaning toward cutting Knollspine Dragon for her, but I have a feeling all of Aegis Angel, Knollspine Dragon, and Twilight Shepherd will be out of the deck by the time Avacyn Restored is fully spoiled.

TsumiBand
04-11-2012, 01:38 PM
I agree that Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is better than Archangel of Strife. The question then becomes, "Is Archangel of Strife better than Knollspine Dragon, Twilight Shepherd, and Aegis Angel?

I actually won a game against a friend of mine who was playing my Kaalia of the Vast deck because his Archangel of Strife gave me exactly enough damage to kill him. Despite that, I feel like I'm almost always getting more out of Archangel of Strife than my opponents. When both cards are out, you're essentially getting +6/+0 from "war" and your opponents are getting either +1/+0 or +2/+0 from "war" when they attack you. They're getting +6/+0 from "war" if they attack each other. Talk about incentives...

There's no arguing that Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is better than Archangel of Strife, but I think I'd rather have both. I'm leaning toward cutting Knollspine Dragon for her, but I have a feeling all of Aegis Angel, Knollspine Dragon, and Twilight Shepherd will be out of the deck by the time Avacyn Restored is fully spoiled.

Knollspine Dragon is probably one of the more mana intensive tricks in the deck, which doesn't really gel with the idea that you're going to be playing a bunch of fat and then blow up everyone's mana. Considering that Griselbrand is going to let you Wheel at your leisure and doesn't need to be recast, I'm not sure when Knollspine would ever be a better play, especially after a Geddon effect.

The Big Ragu
04-11-2012, 05:39 PM
Kaalia really loves this new expansion, she does. You guys are gonna have a blast getting to play with all of her exciting new friends:laugh:

TsumiBand
04-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Kaalia really loves this new expansion, she does. You guys are gonna have a blast getting to play with all of her exciting new friends:laugh:

It kind of feels like how Goblins did for a long time... just printing a red utility creature and going "whoops, AND it's a Goblin" instantly gives it +1. Kaalia's retarded like that, and she gets to steal from 3 tribes to boot. It's really kind of stupid haha. Unfortunately it really centralizes the deck in a big way; not getting Kaalia out and protected via Swiftfoot Boots or some other kind of protection means you're just playing a billion huge guys. Which is not the worst position in the world to be in when playing EDH, but the strategy's pretty linear is all.

TsumiBand
04-11-2012, 11:13 PM
EH, thptptbthpthpbtthp, I know I'm double-posting, but the original post mentions Kiki-Jiki, and I'm realizing that this set alone has put like....four new Legendary creatures into the deck. If not more, after all there's only a couple of cards spoiled yet. As the Legendary: Non-Legendary ratio starts to favor the numerator, I wonder how much longer Kiki will have any use? Also, ironically, if this balance is off-set too much, I may actually start to favor Oni of Wild Places O_o Truly there is something amiss when Oni of Wild Places starts looking more tech than Kiki-Jiki, hah.

Kuma
04-12-2012, 03:20 PM
EH, thptptbthpthpbtthp, I know I'm double-posting, but the original post mentions Kiki-Jiki, and I'm realizing that this set alone has put like....four new Legendary creatures into the deck. If not more, after all there's only a couple of cards spoiled yet. As the Legendary: Non-Legendary ratio starts to favor the numerator, I wonder how much longer Kiki will have any use? Also, ironically, if this balance is off-set too much, I may actually start to favor Oni of Wild Places O_o Truly there is something amiss when Oni of Wild Places starts looking more tech than Kiki-Jiki, hah.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is going to be good in this deck for a long time. We'd have to run a shit-ton of legendary creatures before that would be a problem. Even if you aren't getting a ETB effect from the activation, you're still getting another copy of your biggest non-legendary beater to swing with.

DarkForce
04-15-2012, 07:35 PM
A card you can consider that I am running in my version of the deck is Reliquary Tower. This land will be definitely be useful once you add Griselbrand to the deck with all of the cards that you have the potential to draw. It will also work nicely with the Kiki Jiki + Knollspine Dragon combo, so long as you keep Knollspine in the deck (because i know you mentioned you were considering cutting it).
I think Reliquary tower would prove to be much superior to Tainted Field, Spinerock Knoll, or even Hall of the Bandit Lord.

TsumiBand
04-15-2012, 09:09 PM
A card you can consider that I am running in my version of the deck is Reliquary Tower. This land will be definitely be useful once you add Griselbrand to the deck with all of the cards that you have the potential to draw. It will also work nicely with the Kiki Jiki + Knollspine Dragon combo, so long as you keep Knollspine in the deck (because i know you mentioned you were considering cutting it).
I think Reliquary tower would prove to be much superior to Tainted Field, Spinerock Knoll, or even Hall of the Bandit Lord.

I think I disagree, on the basis that this deck's plan is often to puke fatties while also tutoring for a Geddon effect. While Avacyn gives the deck the potential to make all forms of Wrath/Geddon completely miss its own side of the table, I don't know that it will be worthwhile to assume that such a line of play will occur often enough to be of any consequence.

The biggest upshot of the big draw effects is that, as long as Kaalia is active, we continue to draw and play threats; lands are only drawn because they are in the deck. So while it's not without merit, I think that ultimately it'll just be in the graveyard along with the rest of your lands; the fact that it will then only be tapping for colorless while it's in play is sort of a dealbreaker, at least for me.

Kuma
04-16-2012, 12:34 PM
A card you can consider that I am running in my version of the deck is Reliquary Tower. This land will be definitely be useful once you add Griselbrand to the deck with all of the cards that you have the potential to draw. It will also work nicely with the Kiki Jiki + Knollspine Dragon combo, so long as you keep Knollspine in the deck (because i know you mentioned you were considering cutting it).
I think Reliquary tower would prove to be much superior to Tainted Field, Spinerock Knoll, or even Hall of the Bandit Lord.

You may be right that Reliquary Tower deserves inclusion especially with Griselbrand. There are two issues with Reliquary Tower: This deck likes to blow up all the lands, meaning that Reliquary Tower likely won't do its intended job of keeping our hand large, and this deck is extremely color hungry, meaning we need a good reason to run a land that doesn't make colored mana.

I absolutely hate Tainted Field and Tainted Peak. Still, until Wizards gives me better duals, they're staying put.

Spinerock Knoll is an amazing card because it's so easy to trigger when you're attacking with Kaalia of the Vast.

I have a love/hate relationship with Hall of the Bandit Lord, but getting Kaalia of the Vast swinging is so important that I can't cut it.

I could see Reliquary Tower being better than Volrath's Stronghold, a card I've grown to hate in this deck. I'll take it under consideration.

Man, Wizards needs to print like 3-4 more good duals in this deck's colors and the mana base will be set.

Sims
04-16-2012, 01:40 PM
Sooo......

Colorless land that has the ability:

:r::w:, tap: Target creature gets +2/+0, gains haste and vigilance until the end of turn.

Worth it? Not useful in this particular deck compared to a straight Gisela/Jor kadeen deck?

TsumiBand
04-16-2012, 02:08 PM
Sooo......

Colorless land that has the ability:

:r::w:, tap: Target creature gets +2/+0, gains haste and vigilance until the end of turn.

Worth it? Not useful in this particular deck compared to a straight Gisela/Jor kadeen deck?

Hall of the Bandit Lord, Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots are still better than this. Kaalia's the one that needs haste most of all, since she's putting dudes into play that don't care if they have haste or not, they're already attacking. Lucksacking a turn 2 hasty Kaalia is about as sexy as it gets and that's a huge Godhand (City of Brass, Mana Crypt, a Signet, Greaves/Boots, and then 3 relevant threats to make it worthwhile). I guess my thought on it is, if I have to spend 6 in one turn to make Kaalia hasty, and I can't split it up as I can with equipment (making it 2 on turn and 4 the next), then it isn't really haste, because I'm waiting for that mana to be open when I could just play a threat and let it get over summoning sickness.

It's the same as the Reliquary Tower suggestion; it's not outright incorrect, but the deck has better things to do and is probably going to just blow that land up along with everyone else's. vOv

If it tapped for W or R or B it might be worth looking at, but for another colorless land to enter this hungry deck it has to either make 2+ mana or just be strictly better than any other colorless land, and I don't think that this is.

Kuma
04-16-2012, 03:12 PM
Sooo......

Colorless land that has the ability:

:r::w:, tap: Target creature gets +2/+0, gains haste and vigilance until the end of turn.

Worth it? Not useful in this particular deck compared to a straight Gisela/Jor kadeen deck?

Wow, that's better than I would have expected the R/W land to be.

The only creature you need to give haste to is Kaalia of the Vast, and this card is too slow to do that. The +2/+0 and vigilance is nice when you're trying to race other creature decks, so there's that.

There's still the colorless mana problem and the "I want to blow up all the lands, not use them for minor utility" problem. Like Reliquary Tower, I could see this being better than Volrath's Stronghold, but I think a basic land might be better than Volrath's Stronghold.

It's worth considering, but If I had to make a call now, I'd say, "likely not."

EDIT: You know what? Forget all this discussion about what colorless land we should run. Pretty sure we should be running Cavern of Souls in that slot. Uncounterable Kaalia of the Vast? Yes, please.

TsumiBand
04-17-2012, 02:16 PM
EDIT: You know what? Forget all this discussion about what colorless land we should run. Pretty sure we should be running Cavern of Souls in that slot. Uncounterable Kaalia of the Vast? Yes, please.

Ehhh I don't know about this actually. The translation on mtgsalvation isn't actually very good; if you read the card it's pretty clear that it only makes creature spells of the chosen creature type uncounterable, which is a lot different than the spoiler's "If this mana is spent on a spell...." So naming any of Kaalia's types is pretty bad, unless you're trying superhard to resolve your turn 1 Mother of Runes or Benevolent Bodyguard, heh.

Kuma
04-17-2012, 03:13 PM
Ehhh I don't know about this actually. The translation on mtgsalvation isn't actually very good; if you read the card it's pretty clear that it only makes creature spells of the chosen creature type uncounterable, which is a lot different than the spoiler's "If this mana is spent on a spell...." So naming any of Kaalia's types is pretty bad, unless you're trying superhard to resolve your turn 1 Mother of Runes or Benevolent Bodyguard, heh.

I'm not naming angel, demon, or dragon with it. I'm naming human for Kaalia of the Vast. It doesn't matter if I'm only getting colorless mana to cast my non-Kaalia of the Vast spells. I'm getting uncounterable Kaalias. That's huge.

TsumiBand
04-17-2012, 04:14 PM
I'm not naming angel, demon, or dragon with it. I'm naming human for Kaalia of the Vast. It doesn't matter if I'm only getting colorless mana to cast my non-Kaalia of the Vast spells. I'm getting uncounterable Kaalias. That's huge.

Yeah, that's understood. It just seems less amazing that for the vast majority of spells in the deck the land is just a Blasted Landscape.

Kuma
04-23-2012, 12:52 PM
Final Avacyn Restored changes:

- Reya Dawnbringer
- Deathless Angel
- Knollspine Dragon
- Volrath's Stronghold

+ Avacyn, Angel of Hope
+ Griselbrand
+ Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
+ Cavern of Souls

Reasons have already been outlined.

Esper3k
04-25-2012, 12:26 PM
God, I wish my EDH group hadn't died out.

When all the spoilers for this set came out, I made a mess in my pants, I must say...

TsumiBand
04-25-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't want to be another naysayer, but the minute Kaalia puts Griselbrand into play, the game is over. Griselbrand has kind of the same feel as any other good Bribery target; it sort of pulls the attention away from the rest of the game in the same ways that Emrakul, Primeval Titan and others will do. I have ah...reservations about Grisel's future in EDH, especially since it seems less broken as a commander. I'll play the shit out of him until I can't, though. :)

Kuma
05-06-2012, 10:26 PM
- Tainted Field

+ Shadowblood Ridge

Everyone who's been keeping up with this thread knows my disdain for the tainted lands. There aren't a lot of swamps in this deck, especially not after a mass land destruction effect. Shadowblood Ridge still requires another land to work, but unlike Tainted Field it can be any land. Also, it can filter mana from a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring which could be useful.

Minor change, but it's an improvement.

TsumiBand
05-07-2012, 01:57 PM
- Tainted Field

+ Shadowblood Ridge

Everyone who's been keeping up with this thread knows my disdain for the tainted lands. There aren't a lot of swamps in this deck, especially not after a mass land destruction effect. Shadowblood Ridge still requires another land to work, but unlike Tainted Field it can be any land. Also, it can filter mana from a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring which could be useful.

Minor change, but it's an improvement.

I realize the thirst for colored lands in this deck, but after all the artifact mana-fixing in the deck, why isn't something like Strip Mine better than the old filter lands? I know we just blow up the world eventually anyway, but I've found that even in EDH - especially in 1v1 - living the dream with a turn 2 Strip or "Flagstones, Boom" can be really huge.

Kuma
05-07-2012, 02:35 PM
I realize the thirst for colored lands in this deck, but after all the artifact mana-fixing in the deck, why isn't something like Strip Mine better than the old filter lands? I know we just blow up the world eventually anyway, but I've found that even in EDH - especially in 1v1 - living the dream with a turn 2 Strip or "Flagstones, Boom" can be really huge.

Even with all the artifact mana fixing I've still had games where I didn't have all the colors I needed. This deck often needs W or R on turn one for a Steelshaper's Gift or Gamble, BB on turn two for a Sign in Blood, and WBR on turn three or four for Kaalia of the Vast. Something like Strip Mine makes lines of play like that even harder. If you're going to run the deck 1 vs. 1, sure, Strip Mine is probably worth it, but in multiplayer it's going to do more harm than good.

dahcmai
05-09-2012, 06:47 AM
First time I've seen this one. I like the build though.

Only things that sprung to mind that might have been worth considering is the Pitch spells like Blazing and Shining Shoal in place of some of the other protection. Could be just win more, though I have a fondness for Shining Shoal.

Thunder Dragon just seems like a better fit than the Scourge, but I guess there might be times you want tha 6 damage over just getting a free pyroclasm.

Still want that Moat? Seems like it. Curious on whether you still thought you needed it.

No Whispersilk Cloak? Seems like you would want an unblockable Shrouded Kaalia. It seems like the best equipment you could want in there. Haste is that big of a deal huh?

Angelic Overseer seems decent since Kaalia is a Human and would be who is bringing that monster on the field in the first place.

Old fashioned Baneslayer? She is a beast after all and bigger than most of the dragons.

I'm also surprised there's no Karmic Guide. Overused combo yes, but you do like to get things done in a hurry sometimes.


Love the deck though, I was working on a Kaalia deck of my own so I was happy to see a good list to get some ideas from. I have to play with 4-5 players all the time and yours is much more of a one on one, but it's still great for the ideas on beaters and protection. I totally would have missed Rakdos. Good find there.



Oh yeah, one last thing. If you really feel like destroying your wallet, there's a hell of a good beater that even comes back to your hand when it dies and it's an 8/8. Zodiac Dragon.

Esper3k
05-09-2012, 08:11 AM
Regarding:

Moat: I cut this because I simply wanted to have more things that help your combo (you're essentially playing slowish combo). I could see playing it in a very Aggro meta though.

Whispersilk Cloak: For me this got cut because yes, haste was the most important thing for me to get for Kaalia. The boots / Ferver lets you set up for a T4 attacking Kaalia.

Baneslayer Angel: As sad as it makes me that this awesome angel never sees play anymore, she is simply outclassed by all the other creatures that have a wide scale effect, which every one of your guys has to have in multiplayer.

TsumiBand
05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
Moat is irrelevant because this deck is already set to do things that prevent there from being ground-pounders anyway, like setting up a turn 3 Kaalia --> Avacyn/Griselbrand into play--> Geddon, or any number of the dragons that deal X damage to target thing/everything, and then just racing by grabbing an Archangel of Strife or Gisela, Blade of Goldnight or something similar.

At any rate, a hexproof/shrouded Kaalia that can't be answered because there aren't enough lands in play 'acts like' a lot of different plays. Especially if/when Chancellor of the Annex pops up immediately afterwards.

One card that kind of freaks my shit out is Terminus. I haven't had to deal with it yet, but it tempts me to put Hide // Seek back in. I haven't been playing any of the Duress effects, and maybe I should. I do run Syphon Mind for the multiplayer lulz, but I've yet to be impressed with it and it may as well be, like, Ambition's Cost or something like it.

I've also heard tell that Sneak Attack is shenanigans with cards like Adarkar Valkyrie and/or Twilight Shepherd, but I think I lack the fortitude to put a card in the deck that forces me to sacrifice my dudes if I don't go get a piece of the combo. The idea is to keep the large men in play, I thought...

dahcmai
05-09-2012, 06:52 PM
I had thought of Sneak Attack as well and tossed the idea in favor of just making Kaalia do her job better. She makes them stick and let's face it, that's worth a lot more when people start at 40.

Kuma
05-10-2012, 04:20 PM
First time I've seen this one. I like the build though.

Thanks! :smile:


Only things that sprung to mind that might have been worth considering is the Pitch spells like Blazing and Shining Shoal in place of some of the other protection. Could be just win more, though I have a fondness for Shining Shoal.

With the addition of Griselbrand, I've been looking at pitch cards again like Fury of the Horde and Blazing Shoal. Thing is, unless you're playing 1 vs. 1, these cards are only good post-Griselbrand. I haven't explicitly stated my list is 1 vs. 1, but I will say it gets worse the more players there are in the game. If you're playing in large groups, you probably want to modify the list to have less creatures and more control cards. You'd probably want to add Village Bell-Ringer to have an instant kill combo with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.


Thunder Dragon just seems like a better fit than the Scourge, but I guess there might be times you want tha 6 damage over just getting a free pyroclasm.

While I like repeatable effects, you make a good point. The card I'd probably cut for Thunder Dragon would be Twilight Shepherd, Aegis Angel, or Oros, the Avenger.


Still want that Moat? Seems like it. Curious on whether you still thought you needed it.

Moat is probably worth it if you're playing in a group with a lot of creature decks, as it's difficult to race two creature decks and nearly impossible to race more than that.


No Whispersilk Cloak? Seems like you would want an unblockable Shrouded Kaalia. It seems like the best equipment you could want in there. Haste is that big of a deal huh?

Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm almost never in a situation where Kaalia of the Vast getting blocked is a problem. And yes, haste is that important. This deck is all about speed. Whispersilk Cloak was too slow for me.


Angelic Overseer seems decent since Kaalia is a Human and would be who is bringing that monster on the field in the first place.

Old fashioned Baneslayer? She is a beast after all and bigger than most of the dragons.

Oh yeah, one last thing. If you really feel like destroying your wallet, there's a hell of a good beater that even comes back to your hand when it dies and it's an 8/8. Zodiac Dragon.

I've been trying to avoid cards that just beat for damage unless they're really amazing like Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Archangel of Strife. I talked about it a few pages back, but aside from the fact that Baneslayer Angel is just a beater, if an opponent casts Bribery, Baneslayer Angel can deal with all but a few of the deck's creatures in combat.


I'm also surprised there's no Karmic Guide. Overused combo yes, but you do like to get things done in a hurry sometimes.

What combo are you referring to? If it's Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo, I'd also need a sacrifice outlet.


Love the deck though, I was working on a Kaalia deck of my own so I was happy to see a good list to get some ideas from. I have to play with 4-5 players all the time and yours is much more of a one on one, but it's still great for the ideas on beaters and protection. I totally would have missed Rakdos. Good find there.

I'd look at Esper3k's list in this thread if you haven't already. He built his to deal with a four player group, whereas I built mine for a three player group. There should be some good ideas in there.

Kirika
05-12-2012, 12:45 AM
This is the updated version of my Kaalia deck with Avacyn changes for my play group who really hates geddons so much they are banned. I play anywhere up to 5 players. Beyond that takes way too long. Do have a hard time winning unless Kaalia sticks around. Although Quicksilver Amulet can help get stuff out.

Karebear Kalia (no geddons)

General: Kalia of the Vast

Lands (35)
Arid Mesa
Badlands
Battlefield Forge
Bloodstained Mire
Bojuka Bog
Caves of Koilos
Cavern of Souls (was Mountain)
City of Brass
Command Tower
Dragonskull Summit
Fetid Heath
Flagstones of Trokair
Graven Cairns
Godless Shrine
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
3 Plains
Plateau
Reflecting Pool
Rugged Prairie
Rupture SPire
Sacred Foundry
Scrubland
Stripmine
Sunhome, Fotress of the Legion
2 Swamp
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Verdant Catacombs
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland

Mana Rocks (9)
Boros Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Cold Steel Heart
Everflowing Chalice
Felwar Stone
Orhov Signet
Rakdos Signet
Sol Ring

Draw (5)
Ambition's Cost
Mind's Eye
Phyrexian Arena
Skeletal Scrying
Sign in Blood

Tutors (7)
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Insidious Dreams
Liliana Vess
Shred Memory
Vampiric Tutor

Equipment (3)
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots
Whisperwind Cloak

Utility (5)
Debtor's Knell
Luminarch Ascension
Moat
Oblivion Ring
Quicksilver Amulet

Creatures
Angels (14)
Adarkar Valkyrie
Admonition Angel
Aegis Angel
Angelic Arbiter
Angel of Despair
Avacyn Angel of Hope (was Akroma)
Chancellor of the Annex
Gisela, Blad of Goodnight (was Archangel of Strife)
Iona Shield of Emeria
Platinum Angel
Reya Dawnbringer
Tariel Reckoner of Souls
Twilight Shepherd
Victory's Herald

Demons (6)
Blood Gift Demon
Griselbrand (was Razia)
Oni of Wild Places
Rakdos the Defiler
Reaper of the Abyss
Rune-scared Demon

Dragons (12)
Balefire Dragon
Bogarden Hellkite
Flameblast Dragon
Hellkite Charger
Hoard-SMelter Dragon
Knollspine Dragon
Mordant Dragon
Oros the Avenger
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Steel Hellkite
Vampiric Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star

Utility Creatures (3)
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Mother of Runes
Stoneforge Mystic

Probably could make the land base slightly better but having basics is good sometimes.

Don't actually own a Grim Tutor. Imperial Seal is in my vintage deck.

TsumiBand
05-12-2012, 03:48 PM
I did not know about Quicksilver Amulet. Interesting find. Theoretical shenanigans with Erratic Portal ensue? At the low low cost of 5 generic mana, haha. I don't know if it would be an include in a Geddon deck like mine is, as I may not have 4 to pay for the ability after blowing up rryone's land, but then again, Avacyn, so maybe.

It could just be my lack of money for things like Grim Tutor/Imperial Seal to show me the error of my ways, but I fucking love Liliana Vess in this deck. Vampiric for good things, Geddon all the lands and then make suckers discard? I like it.

Kuma
05-14-2012, 02:46 PM
I did not know about Quicksilver Amulet. Interesting find. Theoretical shenanigans with Erratic Portal ensue? At the low low cost of 5 generic mana, haha. I don't know if it would be an include in a Geddon deck like mine is, as I may not have 4 to pay for the ability after blowing up rryone's land, but then again, Avacyn, so maybe.

This is more cute than practical, although I have considered Erratic Portal in the past. You can't afford to pay :5: for shenannigans when you're trying to blow up all the lands.


It could just be my lack of money for things like Grim Tutor/Imperial Seal to show me the error of my ways, but I fucking love Liliana Vess in this deck. Vampiric for good things, Geddon all the lands and then make suckers discard? I like it.

My beef with Liliana Vess is that you can't use her to tutor before you have an active Kaalia of the Vast. I guess she's good for finding Griselbrand or something once you've got Kaalia active, but whenever possible I like my tutors to be able to both set up Kaalia with Lightning Greaves and find good creatures to cheat out.

I've been working on speeding up the deck with artifact mana. Right now the changes are:

- Diabolic Tutor
- Night's Whisper
- Coalition Relic
- Sign in Blood
- Tainted Peak

+ Mana Vault
+ Chrome Mox
+ Mox Diamond
+ Lotus Petal
+ Pentad Prism

So far the results have been awesome. I haven't liked Mox Diamond, but the rest of the cards are probably staying. I'll let you guys know what the final changes are when I figure it out.

Also, belated congratulations on making this the fourth largest thread on the EDH boards. Let's catch Maga, Traitor to Mortals!

TsumiBand
05-14-2012, 05:02 PM
This is more cute than practical, although I have considered Erratic Portal in the past. You can't afford to pay :5: for shenannigans when you're trying to blow up all the lands.



My beef with Liliana Vess is that you can't use her to tutor before you have an active Kaalia of the Vast. I guess she's good for finding Griselbrand or something once you've got Kaalia active, but whenever possible I like my tutors to be able to both set up Kaalia with Lightning Greaves and find good creatures to cheat out.

I've been working on speeding up the deck with artifact mana. Right now the changes are:

- Diabolic Tutor
- Night's Whisper
- Coalition Relic
- Sign in Blood
- Tainted Peak

+ Mana Vault
+ Chrome Mox
+ Mox Diamond
+ Lotus Petal
+ Pentad Prism

So far the results have been awesome. I haven't liked Mox Diamond, but the rest of the cards are probably staying. I'll let you guys know what the final changes are when I figure it out.

Also, belated congratulations on making this the fourth largest thread on the EDH boards. Let's catch Maga, Traitor to Mortals!

Pentad Prism seems pretty beastly, heh. I considered it but never sleeved it up. Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are probably better than they seem in a deck that tutors for Griselbrand and overwhelms with CA, I guess I feel shitty about tossing cards to Chrome Mox in a Highlander format but that's entirely unfounded.

And yeah, the Portal/Quicksilver post was a bit tongue in cheek. I'm tempted to try it to a different deck though, it's an interesting find and I've no compunction about building a Johnny-ass EDH deck, so I feel like I need to sleeve up that jank now haha.

Kuma
05-15-2012, 04:25 PM
Got some massive changes here. I finally got off my ass and redid the mana base with artifact acceleration.

- Coalition Relic
- Diabolic Tutor
- Sign in Blood
- Night's Whisper
- Tainted Peak
- Swiftfoot Boots
- Thoughtseize
- Duress
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Boom // Bust
- Catastrophe

+ Mana Vault
+ Lotus Petal
+ Chrome Mox
+ Pentad Prism
+ Sphere of the Suns
+ Gold Myr
+ Iron Myr
+ Leaden Myr
+ Charcoal Diamond
+ Fire Diamond
+ Dark Ritual

Coalition Relic was too slow to be considered acceleration. Diabolic Tutor was too slow to help set up an active Kaalia of the Vast. Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper were too durdly with all the added artifact mana. Tainted Peak is a shitty card. Swiftfoot Boots was redundant with Lightning Greaves. When I needed haste, I'd always tutor for Lightning Greaves as that extra mana almost always would slow me down a turn or more. Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition of Kozilek weren't doing what they were supposed to. It was too hard to know who to target in multiplayer and there was too high of a chance to choose wrong. Boom // Bust and Catastrophe were the worst mass land destruction effects. They never got tutored for and were often thrown back because they were too expensive to cast.

I'm not sure about some of these cuts, most notably Swiftfoot Boots, Boom // Bust and Catastrophe. Maybe Benevolent Bodyguard should go instead? Let me know what you guys think.

The deck is much faster now, getting turn two and three Kaalias at a much higher rate. I may even give this deck a shot in my hyper-competitive playgroup.

wagenfratz
05-15-2012, 10:53 PM
i've found that it's very nice to have the swiftfoot boots as a back up whenever my greaves get destroyed/exhiled and what not. it's also nice having two similar equipments in the deck so that i have more of a chance drawing one and can use a tutor on something else to answer a threat.

TsumiBand
05-18-2012, 08:08 PM
I'm inclined to wonder if the need for redundancy in any deck in EDH that can sport tutors at least as good as Vampiric Tutor is as high as it is for others. Kaalia requires Swamps to cast; this allows the deck to play what I'd consider the best, most flexible tutors in the format. This means that the deck in and of itself is necessarily already redundant and has a significant amount less of that "every game is different" feel (yet another reason I love Liliana Vess in this deck; it's one card that generally says I get to draw my two best cards that I haven't already drawn).

So I can understand cutting a modicum of redundant spells from the deck; I mean, really, Swiftfoot Boots is a great little card for EDH, but in a deck that can tutor for Lightning Greaves reliably, its Equip cost is prohibitive more often than not. Some of the one-off Geddon effects can probably be torn from the deck as well, with the caveat that they don't do something that the other Geddon-esque spells aren't doing. So, like, Thoughts of Ruin is not as good as Armageddon or Ravages of War due to its lack of synergy with Avacyn, Angel of Hope, but Catastrophe is modal; it can be Armageddon or it can be Wrath of God.

That's why I don't like the idea of cutting Boom // Bust(especially considering that with all the mana stones that've been added, Shred Memory can actually just grab a lot of spells on its own now - 16 as of today's decklist in the OP - instead of going Shred > Demonic > something). In addition to the Shred Memory trick, Boom // Bust is Sinkhole with Flagstones of Trokair or Avacyn in play, which is less impressive in multiplayer than it is in 1v1, but you still have the ability to pinpoint a shitty land and kill it in the early game if blowing up the whole world isn't an option.

I also have to say that cutting the draw spells feels like a mistake. I realize the deck can play Griselbrand, but I don't think I can get behind removing littler draw effects that can only help to set up the good plays.

Kuma
05-19-2012, 09:56 AM
I'm inclined to wonder if the need for redundancy in any deck in EDH that can sport tutors at least as good as Vampiric Tutor is as high as it is for others. Kaalia requires Swamps to cast; this allows the deck to play what I'd consider the best, most flexible tutors in the format. This means that the deck in and of itself is necessarily already redundant and has a significant amount less of that "every game is different" feel

So I can understand cutting a modicum of redundant spells from the deck; I mean, really, Swiftfoot Boots is a great little card for EDH, but in a deck that can tutor for Lightning Greaves reliably, its Equip cost is prohibitive more often than not.

This is what I was thinking when I cut Swiftfoot Boots. Given that you're almost always going to be tutoring for Lightning Greaves, Swiftfoot Boots is redundant and inferior. I don't need a "backup plan" either. If my Lightning Greaves are destroyed, it's better to just go forward with Kaalia of the Vast. It's not practical to tutor for another piece of equipment, cast it, cast Kaalia, and pay an extra 1 to equip her.

I'm going to see if with all the new mana acceleration if the extra 1 mana doesn't matter, but I suspect it still will.


Some of the one-off Geddon effects can probably be torn from the deck as well, with the caveat that they don't do something that the other Geddon-esque spells aren't doing. So, like, Thoughts of Ruin is not as good as Armageddon or Ravages of War due to its lack of synergy with Avacyn, Angel of Hope, but Catastrophe is modal; it can be Armageddon or it can be Wrath of God.

Having a 'geddon is so important, that I don't mind running the redundant copies. You're right that Thoughts of Ruin isn't as good as Armageddon or Ravages of War, but the Avacyn, Angel of Hope synergy is such a corner case that it's hardly worth mentioning. If I have an active Kaalia of the Vast, I couldn't care less if I have lands or not after a 'geddon.

As for Catastrophe, I've never wanted to cast it as a Wrath of God. If ever I did, Cataclysm would be better.


That's why I don't like the idea of cutting Boom // Bust(especially considering that with all the mana stones that've been added, Shred Memory can actually just grab a lot of spells on its own now - 16 as of today's decklist in the OP - instead of going Shred > Demonic > something). In addition to the Shred Memory trick, Boom // Bust is Sinkhole with Flagstones of Trokair or Avacyn in play, which is less impressive in multiplayer than it is in 1v1, but you still have the ability to pinpoint a shitty land and kill it in the early game if blowing up the whole world isn't an option.

Shred Memory -> Boom // Bust = 6BBR, 9 mana.

Shred Memory -> Demonic Tutor -> Armageddon/Ravages of War = 5BBBW, 9 mana.

I know you're a huge fan of that interaction, but unless you've already used Demonic Tutor, you aren't costing yourself options by not running Boom // Bust.

I've never wanted to cast the Boom half of Boom // Bust. Maybe I would if I played 1 vs. 1, but this list is built for a three or four player group.


I also have to say that cutting the draw spells feels like a mistake. I realize the deck can play Griselbrand, but I don't think I can get behind removing littler draw effects that can only help to set up the good plays.

I didn't want to cut them either, but with all the new mana rocks costing two mana it was hard to cast Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper early on.

If you can suggest alternate cuts for Boom // Bust, Catastrophe, Sign in Blood, and Night's Whisper, I'll be happy to take them under consideration. It's not like I didn't care for any of the cards I cut.

TsumiBand
05-19-2012, 05:59 PM
I do play a lot more 1v1 than group EDH, and that's probably shaped my opinion on several of these issues.

The beers in me probably saw me overstating my crush on Shred Memory, heh. Here's the thing I like about Shred Memory, and again, this deck gets to play most of the great tutors in the format, so it may just be that its role is diminished enough that it's a non-issue, but I like it only inasmuch as presents itself as a way to tutor for a handful of things instead of making Demonic Tutor the intermediary. Aside from Boom // Bust, it can grab Lightning Greaves, any of the two-mana draw spells, many of the mana rocks, and if I put it back in, Hide // Seek(as a compliment to Stranglehold).

In the absence of more draw spells, it may just be better to go Shred > Demonic > target spell, and quite often it IS the right play to Shred Memory for Demonic, so clearly I wouldn't, like, discount that as a good line of play. I guess I'm just of the opinion that the high number of tutors get more value when they don't just tutor for each other, especially considering there's less card draw in your deck (again, I know about that guy Griselbrand)

Kuma
05-28-2012, 09:49 PM
- Benevolent Bodyguard
- Shred Memory
- Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

+ Serra Ascendant
+ Swords to Plowshares
+ Path to Exile

Dear lord, why wasn't I running Serra Ascendant? There isn't a better creature for winning damage races. Swords to Plowshares and Path of Exile will also help win damage races by removing key attackers and clearing the way for Kaalia of the Vast.

Benevolent Bodyguard was easily the worst card in the deck. I don't think I ever used its ability. Shred Memory was too often awkward to use. :1::b::b: is hard to do when you want to cast a two-mana acceleration piece on turn two and Kaalia of the Vast on turn three. Grim Tutor can at least get me any card for that cost. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker doesn't work well with the blow up all lands plan. I realized that I hadn't cast her in months and often threw her back when she was in my opening hand.

TsumiBand
05-29-2012, 11:24 AM
- Benevolent Bodyguard
- Shred Memory
- Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

+ Serra Ascendant
+ Swords to Plowshares
+ Path to Exile

Dear lord, why wasn't I running Serra Ascendant? There isn't a better creature for winning damage races. Swords to Plowshares and Path of Exile will also help win damage races by removing key attackers and clearing the way for Kaalia of the Vast.

Benevolent Bodyguard was easily the worst card in the deck. I don't think I ever used its ability. Shred Memory was too often awkward to use. :1::b::b: is hard to do when you want to cast a two-mana acceleration piece on turn two and Kaalia of the Vast on turn three. Grim Tutor can at least get me any card for that cost. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker doesn't work well with the blow up all lands plan. I realized that I hadn't cast her in months and often threw her back when she was in my opening hand.

Will Serra Ascendant clash with Griselbrand? Or is it enough to say, "I control Griselbrand now, go screw."

I'll have to continue playing Shred Memory until Grim Tutor drops in price to, like, a bottle of Coke. :/ I'll live the dream on MWS though.

Interesting choice in spot removal; I've liked it in 1v1, but found spells like PtE to just be a stopgap while I pray that I can win the day against 2+ guys fast enough. Is it just because they're the cheapest GTFO spells in the game? This pre-con came with Mortify, and I've honestly never wanted to cut it for its modal nature.

Kuma
05-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Will Serra Ascendant clash with Griselbrand? Or is it enough to say, "I control Griselbrand now, go screw."

Ideally, Serra Ascendant should come out turn one and gain you tons of life before you drop a Griselbrand. Even if it ends up being a 1/1 afterwards, it still did its job.

If you control Griselbrand you should have the game locked up in short order. It won't matter if it shrinks Serra Ascendant.


Interesting choice in spot removal; I've liked it in 1v1, but found spells like PtE to just be a stopgap while I pray that I can win the day against 2+ guys fast enough. Is it just because they're the cheapest GTFO spells in the game? This pre-con came with Mortify, and I've honestly never wanted to cut it for its modal nature.

I chose them because they were the least mana intensive pieces of creature removal, yes. I've been losing games where I can't attack the person I need to attack because they can block Kaalia of the Vast. A stopgap is all we need if we're going to blow up all the lands. I used to think that spot removal wasn't necessary, but after playing against some brutal creature decks, I've come around. Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile are too powerful not to try.

wagenfratz
06-20-2012, 10:14 AM
apparently griselbrand was unfair in the format and is now banned. not sure why when i all run into on mtgo is people playing blue and just taking him from me. was he really that hard to deal with?

whatever. here's to grixis in m13....

Kuma
06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
Griselbrand is Griselbanned. He needed to go, but in this deck he wasn't as degenerate as he was in most others since he couldn't draw you into game ending combos starting as early as turn two. Oh well.

- Griselbrand

+ Blinding Angel

It's pretty impossible for an opponent to beat you in a damage race when he can't attack you. Blinding Angel should be a big help in racing multiple opponents.

wagenfratz
07-16-2012, 08:03 PM
i read somewhere and was scolded on mtgo that sol ring is banned. trying to find answers on mtgcommander.net but it's down right now. any ideas/answers?

Aggro_zombies
07-16-2012, 08:09 PM
i read somewhere and was scolded on mtgo that sol ring is banned. trying to find answers on mtgcommander.net but it's down right now. any ideas/answers?
Sol Ring is banned in the 1v1 French list, along with a couple other pieces of fast artifact mana - Mana Crypt and I think some others. It isn't banned under the "official" banned list.

kombatkiwi
08-29-2012, 10:01 AM
Have you considered Dystopia as a land destruction spell?
It's not a bona-fide armageddon but it's decent and it also acts as a semi-grand-abolisher because the punishment is worse if they try to play spells in everyone's turn.
It's also only 3 mana.
EDIT: I meant Desolation, sorry

I'm also curious as to why you don't play Kuro
EDIT: Nvm, I forgot the BBBB upkeep cost

Kuma
08-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Have you considered Dystopia as a land destruction spell?
It's not a bona-fide armageddon but it's decent and it also acts as a semi-grand-abolisher because the punishment is worse if they try to play spells in everyone's turn.
It's also only 3 mana.
EDIT: I meant Desolation, sorry

Spells that only blow up a couple of lands aren't worth it when I run so many Armageddon effects. I doubt Desolation would give my opponents serious pause because they know what an active Kaalia of the Vast means and would gladly lose a land to prevent it.

kombatkiwi
08-30-2012, 10:52 AM
Spells that only blow up a couple of lands aren't worth it when I run so many Armageddon effects. I doubt Desolation would give my opponents serious pause because they know what an active Kaalia of the Vast means and would gladly lose a land to prevent it.

I just quickly whipped this up on cockatrice and it seemed fine
I cut gamble because it's so tilting when it's a red sorcery entomb which seems to happen ALL THE FUCKING TIME

I think this wants to play faithless looting.
It's very annoying when you draw 2 armageddons, or you can discard fatties early to try dig for mana or w/e.

TsumiBand
09-16-2012, 04:10 PM
From RtR, Rakdos, Lord of Riots is a huge enabler for this deck IMO. After any combat phase he's a part of you're essentially able to drop any of the creatures in the deck without paying their colorless mana cost.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135662&stc=1&d=1347763388

Kuma
09-17-2012, 04:49 PM
Yeah, Rakdos, Lord of Riots looks pretty sweet. I'm not sure he'll be amazing in practice since Plan A is still to blow up all the lands, but he's definitely worth a try. My gut tells me he probably stays in.

Angel of Serenity will be the absolute nuts in this deck. She'll definitely be going in.

God, I wish Necropolis Regent was a demon. How amazing would that have been?

It's a shame that Desecration Demon isn't any good in this deck. Oh well, we still got two new awesome toys.

Hunding Gjornersen
09-18-2012, 04:23 PM
How about Infernal Darkness? It's almost, but not quite, mass land destruction. It's very disruptive against everything but mono black.

Kuma
09-18-2012, 04:45 PM
How about Infernal Darkness? It's almost, but not quite, mass land destruction. It's very disruptive against everything but mono black.

That's a very good idea. I'll take it under consideration.

Hunding Gjornersen
09-18-2012, 04:55 PM
Now for a very small point. Is Simian Spirit Guide better than Dark Ritual here? Ritual is obviously better for playing non-Kaalia things, but Guide lets you play Kaalia on the same turn without already having access to all 3 colors.

Kuma
09-18-2012, 06:32 PM
Now for a very small point. Is Simian Spirit Guide better than Dark Ritual here? Ritual is obviously better for playing non-Kaalia things, but Guide lets you play Kaalia on the same turn without already having access to all 3 colors.

The deck needs raw acceleration more than it does color fixing. Dark Ritual nets two mana while Simian Spirit Guide nets one.

It's exceedingly rare that I don't have the colors I need. Simian Spirit Guide is on the short list if I ever feel the deck needs more acceleration, but it's not better than Dark Ritual.

zmattk
09-19-2012, 12:48 AM
Is there any room for Kokusho here? He'd be great with High Market/Phyrexian Tower and Reya Dawnbringer for recursion. High Market and Phyrexian Tower are also decent for protecting Kaalia from being tucked.

Edit: It would also allow you to play things like Dragon Mage and Yosei to recur with Reya. I know this kinda takes the deck in a different direction, but I think it would still be feasible. Crucible of Worlds might be necessary for the reliance on lands that can sac creatures though.

Kuma
09-19-2012, 11:46 AM
Is there any room for Kokusho here? He'd be great with High Market/Phyrexian Tower and Reya Dawnbringer for recursion. High Market and Phyrexian Tower are also decent for protecting Kaalia from being tucked.

Kokusho, the Evening Star isn't strong enough to make the cut. He doesn't do anything but attack for five while he's on the battlefield, and while his death trigger is nice, it isn't strong enough to justify running cards to trigger it.

I think I've had Kaalia of the Vast tucked about twice. It sucks, but not significantly more than if she dies. This deck is all about speed, and the turn or two you have to spend re-casting Kaalia of the Vast is usually a death sentence if your opponents are strong.

I tried running a three-card soft lock with Reya Dawnbringer, Xathrid Demon, and Yosei, the Morning Star, but I never assembled it. I've realized that three-card combos don't have a place in this deck, especially when they don't immediately end the game.


Edit: It would also allow you to play things like Dragon Mage and Yosei to recur with Reya. I know this kinda takes the deck in a different direction, but I think it would still be feasible. Crucible of Worlds might be necessary for the reliance on lands that can sac creatures though.

Dragon Mage? You must be thinking of some other card. :smile:

You could build the deck around three-card, graveyard dependant, combos that don't immediately end the game if you think that'll be fun for you, but it's significantly worse than the aggro-geddon strategy I'm using.

Speaking of not running three card combos...

Return to Ravnica changes:

+ Angel of Serenity
+ Rakdos, Lord of Riots
+ Utvara Hellkite

- Oni of Wild Places
- Hoard-Smelter Dragon
- Twilight Shepherd

Angel of Serenity is an amazing creature. Not only do we get to take out up to three creatures for free, they go to their owner's hands if Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield instead of back to the battlefield.

I'm a little unsure about Rakdos, Lord of Riots, but I think he's strong enough to try. Being able to cast creatures for one to three mana post-combat seems strong.

I love creatures that grow exponentially, which makes Utvara Hellkite an easy include. Note that if you put him on the battlefield tapped and attacking with Kaalia of the Vast, his attack trigger doesn't trigger. You must declare him as an attacker to get the dragon token. With no other dragons out, Utvara Hellkite hits for 6, 6, 12, 24, 48 in successive turns. Add one other dragon and those numbers double.

Oni of Wild Places was better in theory than in practice. It was too difficult and too slow to assemble the Kaalia of the Vast, Rakdos the Defiler, Oni of Wild Places combo. The only other red creature I'd actually want to bounce with Oni of Wild Places was Bogardan Hellkite.

Twilight Shepherd has done nothing for me but be a 5/5 flyer for years. It had been on the shit-list and it's time for it to go.

I think I activated Hoard-Smelter Dragon twice since I built the deck. It doesn't play well with the Armageddon strategy anyway.

Updated first post.

Kuma
01-25-2013, 04:11 PM
Gatecrash and other major changes:

- Lotus Petal
- Chrome Mox
- Pentad Prism
- Sphere of the Suns
- Gold Myr
- Iron Myr
- Leaden Myr
- Charcoal Diamond
- Fire Diamond

+ Gilded Lotus
+ Thran Dynamo
+ Worn Powerstone

My Kaalia of the Vast deck was fundamentally flawed. Running all those garbage acceleration pieces so I could get my Kaalia of the Vast killed or stolen a turn earlier was a terrible idea. They also led to terrible topdecks when I was behind and needed to catch up. The deck also needed to be less hopeless without Kaalia of the Vast, so I've added some stronger acceleration pieces to help cast the creatures if I can't use Kaalia of the Vast.

- Rakdos, Lord of Riots
- Oros, the Avenger
- Steel Hellkite
- Moonveil Dragon
- Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon

Every one of these creatures was poor. Rakdos, Lord of Riots was always just a 6/6 flying, trample. His second ability wasn't relevant and he was very difficult to cast without an active Kaalia of the Vast. I don't know that I ever used Oros, the Avenger's triggered ability. Steel Hellkite can pretty much only destroy permanents when you're already ahead at which point you don't need to. I rarely used the ability anyway. Moonveil Dragon usually only pumped the army by one or two if that. The attack one player with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon and another player with everything else plan didn't work out.

- Sulfurous Springs

+ Plains

The deck really needed a basic land to take advantage of Path to Exile on Kaalia of the Vast. There are more white mana symbols than any other, so it's a Plains.

+ Whispersilk Cloak

I've been critical of this card in the past, but I think I'm going to give it a shot. Kaalia of the Vast has been getting blocked a lot more and I think this could be an answer.

+ Angelic Skirmisher
+ Aurelia, the Warleader
+ Lord of the Void

I've toyed with a lifelink slot in the past and decided I didn't need it, but Angelic Skirmisher can do that and more. Vigilance is amazing when you're trying to kill multiple players as no one will want to attack into your army. Angelic Skirmisher can also be used immediately if you cast her, which is quite possible at :4::w::w:. Aurelia, the Warleader doesn't trigger when she enters the battlefield tapped and attacking, but she's not uncastable, and she's incredible every turn thereafter, especially when you're trying to kill multiple players. Lord of the Void needs no explanation. He's simply amazing.

+ Stranglehold
+ Chaos Warp
+ Oblation
+ Austere Command
+ Catastrophe
+ Merciless Eviction
+ Aven Mindcensor

I wanted some spot removal that wasn't dependent on having an active Kaalia of the Vast. I also wanted the deck to have a few board sweepers for when it falls behind. Aven Mindcensor and Stranglehold belong in every white and red EDH deck.

Updated first post.

kombatkiwi
01-26-2013, 02:29 AM
It's cool how this deck gets new toys like every set

aramkolt
02-22-2013, 12:53 PM
What are your thoughts on Urza's Incubator, Heartless Summoning, Quicksilver Amulet, Maze of Ith, and Nether Void?

I'm thinking the first three will be good if Kaalia is out of action, and Nether Void makes a pretty good lock once she's in play. With all the mana generating artifacts and Nether Void, you could probably pay the 3 for the spells you need to cast anyway.

Maze of Ith will let you attack with Kaalia and prevent it from dying if they have a flying blocker and still get the Angel/Demon/Dragon out into play.

TsumiBand
02-22-2013, 02:27 PM
What are your thoughts on Urza's Incubator, Heartless Summoning, Quicksilver Amulet, Maze of Ith, and Nether Void?

I'm thinking the first three will be good if Kaalia is out of action, and Nether Void makes a pretty good lock once she's in play. With all the mana generating artifacts and Nether Void, you could probably pay the 3 for the spells you need to cast anyway.

Maze of Ith will let you attack with Kaalia and prevent it from dying if they have a flying blocker and still get the Angel/Demon/Dragon out into play.

I've seen Maze of Ith and Quicksilver Amulet in a few builds. In particular, Mazing Kaalia is a fun and funny trick, theoretically (haven't done it myself). I think it's a 'combo' that probably can carry itself on the basis that Maze of Ith doesn't suck, and Kaalia is the general, so the fact that they interact with each other is cool in addition to the fact that neither card sucks.

I don't think Incubator or Heartless Summoning are worth the trouble, and Nether Void is a little redundant when the plan is to eat all the lands. Really at that point, there's not much difference between playing Nether Void and like... controlling Chancellor of the Annex. Ideally you win fast enough to make the difference between +1cmc and +3cmc irrelevant, the ultimate effect is they couldn't cast anything anyway, and Nether Void does not attack. Also, Incubator seems suboptimal in a deck with multiple creature types and Heartless Summoning makes your guys smaller :/ If Rakdos Lord of Riots got cut from Kuma's build for not making spells cheap enough often enough, I feel like Heartless Summoning is probably just as unreliable, less gain for more pain.

Kuma
02-22-2013, 04:14 PM
What are your thoughts on Urza's Incubator, Heartless Summoning, Quicksilver Amulet, Maze of Ith, and Nether Void?

Given that we're dealing with three creature types, Urza's Incubator seems impractical. Heartless Summoning is intriguing, as it speeds up the deck by a turn or two. However, it gives a little back with the -1/-1. It seems really strong for when Kaalia of the Vast gets killed too many times. Quicksilver Amulet is a little expensive, but seems like it might be better than some of the other ramp. Maze of Ith does good work protecting Kaalia of the Vast and your life total, but it doesn't tap for mana and the stated goal of the deck is to blow up all the lands. Nether Void just seems like a worse Armageddon.

Blaze Ryder
02-23-2013, 04:51 PM
What is your opinion on Blind Obedience in this deck? I think it could fit very nicely with the "destroy all lands" idea because it puts your opponents a turn firther behind when trying to catch up and stops them from flashing in a blocker on Kaalia (such as Aven Mindcensor). I'm not sure the Extort is super relevant but it could come in handy when racing an opponent near the end of the game.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that it brings Artifacts in tapped as well. That's also an advantage as it can slow down Armillary Spheres, Gilded Lotuses, Journeyer's Kites, etc.

Kuma
02-24-2013, 11:32 AM
What is your opinion on Blind Obedience in this deck? I think it could fit very nicely with the "destroy all lands" idea because it puts your opponents a turn firther behind when trying to catch up and stops them from flashing in a blocker on Kaalia (such as Aven Mindcensor). I'm not sure the Extort is super relevant but it could come in handy when racing an opponent near the end of the game.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that it brings Artifacts in tapped as well. That's also an advantage as it can slow down Armillary Spheres, Gilded Lotuses, Journeyer's Kites, etc.

Blind Obedience doesn't do enough to justify a spot. If I've blown up all lands with an active board presence, I don't need Blind Obedience. If I haven't blown up all lands, it's not a particularly useful card. I can't see myself doing a lot of extorting in this deck.

TsumiBand
04-10-2013, 02:29 PM
I think given the nature of politics in EDH, dropping this character with Kaalia will be regarded as a great way to kill two players - an opponent and yourself. You will jib one clown with this and then everyone will probably decide you need to leave the game, but it is probably worth talking about for a minute.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/p480x480/156803_10151875288829199_802766337_n.png

At least for my part I do not much care for Kaalia in multiplayer anymore, she just has so little game on everyone at the table that is just working towards a more oppressive Voltron. So in a 1v1 situation there is probably no reason not to rock this because you could lucksack an early Kaalia and draw/tutor up numb-nuts here FTW. But in multiplayer this is a super one-trick pony that will put you on watch for every game proceeding the first one that it actually works; in my experience it's way worse to one-shot one player than it is to threaten the whole board with Mike-and-Trike or anything similar.

kombatkiwi
04-11-2013, 12:09 PM
The new "Everybody gets wit's ended each endstep" is prooooobably playable
I think it's time to stop putting it off and go pick up a bloody kaalia :/

Edit for people who haven't seen it yet:
'Sire of Insanity' 4BR
Creature - Demon
At the beginning of each end step, each player discards his or her hand.
6/4

TsumiBand
04-11-2013, 02:26 PM
The new "Everybody gets wit's ended each endstep" is prooooobably playable
I think it's time to stop putting it off and go pick up a bloody kaalia :/

Edit for people who haven't seen it yet:
'Sire of Insanity' 4BR
Creature - Demon
At the beginning of each end step, each player discards his or her hand.
6/4

It feels redundant next to the Geddon effects in terms of the outcome (get a little ahead and prevent interactivity while still dropping threats).

So I misread it on the first couple of passes, I now see that it makes ALL players discard at the end of EVERY turn. I may need to see it in action to be satisfied, but I also feel like there are a lot of decks that are just way better at topdecking than Kaalia because to be honest, she is pretty much just drawing dagrons all day. I'm wrong a lot though.

Between this card and Master of Cruelties and a couple other random fat with too many abilities, it's starting to just feel like a Goblin deck. Play your 'Lackey', tutor for your answer for the board state, try and lock suckers out.

kombatkiwi
04-11-2013, 11:16 PM
It feels redundant next to the Geddon effects in terms of the outcome (get a little ahead and prevent interactivity while still dropping threats).

So I misread it on the first couple of passes, I now see that it makes ALL players discard at the end of EVERY turn. I may need to see it in action to be satisfied, but I also feel like there are a lot of decks that are just way better at topdecking than Kaalia because to be honest, she is pretty much just drawing dagrons all day. I'm wrong a lot though.

Between this card and Master of Cruelties and a couple other random fat with too many abilities, it's starting to just feel like a Goblin deck. Play your 'Lackey', tutor for your answer for the board state, try and lock suckers out.

I was thinking that if you can ramp Kaalia out fast enough then you would have this and maybe another large creature in play before your opponents can set up anything relevant. A lot of the stronger decks are more stack-based than this is (Oona etc) and they lose a lot more from having their hands nuked than you will. Drawing dragons all day is fine when you can just dump them into play and your opponents are drawing like Counterspells and Power Artifacts and other junk that they can't even use. Kaalia is also better at emptying its hand quickly with all of the fast mana so your opponents will probably be discarding more cards than you anyway.

I hate the anti-Kaalia clause in master of cruelties' text. I guess they didn't want it to read "whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player that player's life total becomes 1" because they want you to be unable to actually kill anyone with this card alone but it still sucks that you can't drop someone to 1 in the turn that you put it into play with Kaalia.

I think it's fine that it feels like a goblin deck, goblins are fun. I'd rather have a bunch of unique creatures that all do interesting things than go back to the days of like Ancient Hellkite + Mordant Dragon + Balefire Dragon +Flameblast Dragon herpderp

TsumiBand
04-12-2013, 12:28 AM
I was thinking that if you can ramp Kaalia out fast enough then you would have this and maybe another large creature in play before your opponents can set up anything relevant. A lot of the stronger decks are more stack-based than this is (Oona etc) and they lose a lot more from having their hands nuked than you will. Drawing dragons all day is fine when you can just dump them into play and your opponents are drawing like Counterspells and Power Artifacts and other junk that they can't even use. Kaalia is also better at emptying its hand quickly with all of the fast mana so your opponents will probably be discarding more cards than you anyway.

I hate the anti-Kaalia clause in master of cruelties' text. I guess they didn't want it to read "whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player that player's life total becomes 1" because they want you to be unable to actually kill anyone with this card alone but it still sucks that you can't drop someone to 1 in the turn that you put it into play with Kaalia.

I think it's fine that it feels like a goblin deck, goblins are fun. I'd rather have a bunch of unique creatures that all do interesting things than go back to the days of like Ancient Hellkite + Mordant Dragon + Balefire Dragon +Flameblast Dragon herpderp

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly content playing a Goblin-esque deck.

I don't believe that Master of Cruelties has an "anti-Kaalia" clause, except if you mean that it limits it to being a one-shot effect. Even if Kaalia puts him into play, MoC's ability should trigger after blockers are announced; if there are none then the ability should work as expected - and then Kaalia ideally hits for 2, FTW.

kombatkiwi
04-12-2013, 10:29 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly content playing a Goblin-esque deck.

I don't believe that Master of Cruelties has an "anti-Kaalia" clause, except if you mean that it limits it to being a one-shot effect. Even if Kaalia puts him into play, MoC's ability should trigger after blockers are announced; if there are none then the ability should work as expected - and then Kaalia ideally hits for 2, FTW.

This is correct, sorry
I misinterpreted the line of text "Whenever ~ attacks and isn't blocked" as meaning that it actually has to be declared as an attacker
I found the relevant line in the comprules which corrects that misconception

Kuma
04-24-2013, 11:40 AM
- Scourge of Kher Ridges
- Mordant Dragon

+ Master of Cruelties
+ Sire of Insanity

Scourge of Kher Ridges was easily the weakest creature remaining. It was a tough call between Mordant Dragon and Adarkar Valkyrie, but the deciding factor was Adarkar Valkyrie's ability to protect Kaalia of the Vast.

Master of Cruelties is insane with Kaalia of the Vast. You attack with Kaalia of the Vast and put in Master of Cruelties. Master of Cruelties takes your opponent to one life and Kaalia of the Vast's combat damage finishes them off. He almost makes me want to re-add Oni of Wild Places. While Sire of Insanity slows us down, it slows down our opponents and helps ensure that Kaalia of the Vast stays around.

I want to fit Legion's Initiative in here, but I'm not sure where.

Updated first post.

Ronier
05-24-2013, 12:11 PM
I am a newbie, but would change some letters, such as:

- Worn Powerstone + Coalition Relic
- Thran Dynamo + Chromatic Lantern
- Gilded Lotus + Mimic Vat
- Scroll Rack + Sensei's Divining Top
- Stoneforge Mystic + Praetor's Grasp
- Admonition Angel + Twilight Shepherd
- Rakdos the Defiler + Dragon Mage
- Sire of Insanity + Yosei, the Morning Star
- Reaper from the Abyss + Hellkite Tyrant
- Adarkar Valkyrie + Rakdos, Lord of Riots
- Aegis Angel + Phyrexian Reclamation
- Whispersilk Cloak + Swiftfoot Boots
- Archangel of Strife +Phyrexian Arena
- Angelic Skirmisher + Mind Twist
- Platinum Angel + Quicksilver amulet
- Linvala, Keeper of Silence + Oblivion Ring
- Blinding Angel + Reanimate
- Catastrophe + Wrath of God
- Merciless Eviction + Damnation

I wonder about your opinion of these cards with these changes?

Kuma
05-24-2013, 02:11 PM
- Worn Powerstone + Coalition Relic

The fact that it makes colored mana isn't enough to make up for the fact that it can't make you two mana every turn.


- Thran Dynamo + Chromatic Lantern

Thran Dynamo is in there to help you cast your creatures when Kaalia of the Vast is inevitably prevented from attacking. Chromatic Lantern doesn't do that nearly as well/


- Gilded Lotus + Mimic Vat

Mimic Vat is an interesting suggestion. This change is probably fine.


- Scroll Rack + Sensei's Divining Top

Scroll Rack gives you so much more digging power, especially when combined with fetchlands.


- Stoneforge Mystic + Praetor's Grasp

I guess Praetor's Grasp is fine if you can reliably bet Lightning Greaves with it, but it costs more mana than Stoneforge Mystic, so why make the switch?


- Admonition Angel + Twilight Shepherd
- Rakdos the Defiler + Dragon Mage
- Sire of Insanity + Yosei, the Morning Star
- Reaper from the Abyss + Hellkite Tyrant
- Adarkar Valkyrie + Rakdos, Lord of Riots

I wholeheartedly disagree with all these changes. Every creature you want to put in I've tried and found lacking. Admonition Angel especially is way too good to cut.


- Aegis Angel + Phyrexian Reclamation

I don't think this deck needs graveyard recursion as much as it needs to protect Kaalia.


- Whispersilk Cloak + Swiftfoot Boots

I tried Whispersilk Cloak as an experiment and it wasn't great. Swiftfoot Boots is awful though. That extra mana makes it hard for you to get any acceleration out of it.


- Archangel of Strife +Phyrexian Arena

Phyrexian Arena is pretty slow for a deck that wants to be this fast. Archangel of Strife is one of, if not the best card at straight up dealing damage.


- Angelic Skirmisher + Mind Twist

Angelic Skirmisher isn't the greatest creature or anything, but when are you going to have the time/mana to cast an effective Mind Twist?


- Platinum Angel + Quicksilver amulet

There are certain liabilities and advantages to running Platinum Angel. I've considered Quicksilver Amulet over some of the more expensive mana rocks and it's probably worth trying.


- Linvala, Keeper of Silence + Oblivion Ring

Linvala, Keeper of Silence is a concession to my metagame. You could possibly do without it and this is a fine switch.


- Blinding Angel + Reanimate

When you're trying to race multiple players, Blinding Angel can be invaluable. Reanimate is a decent addition though.


- Catastrophe + Wrath of God

Blowing up lands >> blowing up creatures.


- Merciless Eviction + Damnation

This one is probably fine. Could be Wrath of God instead, you'd have to count mana symbols.

TsumiBand
05-24-2013, 02:36 PM
I can't imagine cutting Merciless Eviction, but I'm such a dickhead about throwing away tempo and attacking walkers to deal with them that I am probably overprotective of anything that says "deal with target planeswalker/all the planeswalkers". Plus it's modal! Modal modal modal. I love modal things. Catastrophe and Merciless Eviction, sitting in a tree, m-o-d-a-l-i-t. Y. ugh :/


Anyway I cannot believe I didn't think of Legion's Initiative. I feel like Legion's Initiative would be a lot of good in this deck, especially considering the kinds of removal that need to be addressed from other players. It's a one-trick pony so it might not be as strong here as, say, in a 4-of format, but if nothing else it's nice to put a little meat on Kaalia's bones.

I haven't had a chance to play with Master of Cruelties or Sire of Insanity, but Sire looks on paper like a bigger obstacle for Kaalia to overcome than the opponents. It can't be something you just drop with impunity, right - like it's gotta be alongside something like Chancellor of the Annex or Utvara Hellkite right? Or else it's just a free-for-all under someone answers it and they reset much faster than Kaalia does b/c your blue spells are in another castle.

Also I just do not know about Rakdos the Defiler anymore. Seems like he's seeing less and less play from me. Especially with Oni of Wild Places out of the deck. Just not worth the backfire, and as a one-shot effect it's less impressive.

Ronier
06-20-2013, 11:30 AM
I wonder what cards would be good against deck control in type 1x1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. And you take?

afifthofjack
03-16-2017, 12:20 AM
I find kaalia being a fun commander, but if your playing her the must be other routes to drop your big nasty bombs with a dash of protection for kaalia. I will send a deck list of my latest build for her.. Beware she is a barrel of monkies general

ghostfire86
08-31-2017, 04:32 AM
My experience with this deck is that it's amazing in small groups but lacks against larger pods of players. Speed is the name of the game here which Mardu does provide. There is however an issue with card draw potential. This needs to pump out a little more than it currently does to maintain steam in larger groups.

My current build:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-beyond-heaven-and-hell/