[Deck] Patriot

[dahcmai]

Patriot

I. Overview
II. History
III. Decklists
a). Original list
b.) Current
IV. Card Choices
a.) Manabase
b.) Counterspell Suite
c.) Removal Package
d.) Equipment
e). Creatures and Planeswalkers
V. Cards That Didn’t Make the Cut
VI. Cards that are borderline or playable with changes.
VII. Why do I want to play this pile?
VII. Match-ups
a.) Bant
b.) Merfolk
c.) Goblins
d.) Ichorid
e.) UWx Landstill
f.) Zoo
g.) 43 Lands
h.) Sneak and Show
i.) Burn
j). Combo
k). Rock
l). Maverick

X. Additional Materials
Similar deck lists for comparison.



I. Overview

Patriot is an aggro control deck revolving around Stoneforge Mystic inside of an extremely controllish shell. It has a large variety of removal options, an impressive counterspell suite, and a long game involving 2 of the best planeswalkers in the game.
The win conditions usually consist of smaller creatures equipped with the best equipment the game has to offer usually cheated into play from Stoneforge Mystic.


II. History


Patriot is a direct result of the printing of the card Stoneforge Mystic. This deck was created by an accumulation of several sources and not one individual or group. Online players, local tournaments, and the eventual tuning of Caw Blade itself from Standard are the main contributing factors. You could say this deck started as a standard deck and evolved into a Legacy deck. As is such the case for myself. This is the evolution of the deck I have been playing since Caw Blade started making waves. The original Standard deck is probably the starting point, but I won’t list that here as most people have seen that incarnation and it’s fairly irrelevant to this list other than the meager origin.


Stoneforge Mystic itself slowly just proved itself a legacy worthy card and molded the deck around itself. Batterskull and Mental Misstep only helped solidify the aggro matches that the original version had and make it a serious contender in today’s meta by removing the inability to deal with early threats and put a much faster clock on the table than aggro decks can.



III. Decklists.

I originally started with a rough list ported from standard and tuned it into this.


a). Early ported version. 3-10-2011

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Moat
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

60

Sideboard:
1 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seasinger
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God


The deck was an obvious direct port of the Standard Caw Blade deck with things like Gideon Jura replaced by more powerful options such as Moat. You can tell from that Sideboard it was a serious testing ground for several things.


Slowly as I played it week after week in our local tournament I would pull cards and add others. With help from the people on the Source’s boards I ended up with a fairly tuned version, but I was still having some trouble with very fast aggro. You can read more about the slow evolution here.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20317-Caw-Blade-in-Legacy/page5

Then Mental Misstep and Batterskull were printed.


Misstep solved one of the universal problems control decks have. If you don’t answer a 1st turn Aether Vial or Goblin Lacky, you tend to lose the game. Its printing was instrumental in bringing the aggro matches under control.

Batterskull was quickly added to the Standard versions of the deck so I tried it out. If it stuck, you won. It was that simple. It seems like a horrible card and most of the time it is horrible until you cheat that thing into play off a Stoneforge. Then it’s a scary fast threat most decks cannot deal with that quickly. It’s fairly easy for a Legacy deck to remove it, but Misstep was coming to the rescue there also, countering those pesky Swords to Plowshares. The two together were the only reason it was working. The synergy was coming together.

I played the deck to death from there enjoying the ease of being able to run over a lot of decks. StoneBlade is amazingly good against random jank. Merfolk were still tricky so I took a tip from the MODO crowd and added Grim Lavamancers. That card is well known to help in the Merfolk match up immensely.

From suggestions here, Vendilion Clique made the cut and eventually I realized that the Clique just outclassed the Squadron Hawks. I loved the Brainstorm with the Hawks, but Clique was good all the time. They eventually took over the Hawks spot completely. So much for Caw blade in Legacy. It was just StoneBlade (Patriot) now.



Eventually, I arrived at the following list.


b). Current list.

4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard choices
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Firespout
Ethersworn Canonist
Divert / or Spell Pierce
Submerge
Engineered Explosives
Peacekeeper
Orim’s Thunder*

[dahcmai]

IV. Card Choices.

A). Mana – the mana was a long and arduous task of slowly tuning since the deck requires very little mana, but still wants to cast 4 casting cost spells later on. Karakas was added out of necessity for Emrakul and would otherwise be a normal plains. Clique was just a bonus for it. The basic count was a necessity also due to the recent addition of Magus of the Moon. I noticed while playing I always wanted to get basics to just bypass Wasteland in the early rounds. You never need a double color early so it worked out well. Magus just fit after the first few basics dropped.

Inkmoth Nexus was an homage to the old Caw Blade deck, but serves the same purpose. With enough mana, he becomes an alternate win con all on his own with equipment providing a quick kill if needed even over infinite life combos like Life.dec.

The deck was two colors to start, but I had added a third to accommodate Engineered Explosives in the main with an Academy Ruins recursion. I added Firespout to the board due to that third color as I had liked the card for fighting Merfolk and Zoo. Eventually, the mountains stayed and the Explosives left when I no longer had to worry so much about a Lacky or Vial. I sometimes use it for board duty, but it’s not as needed now.

Note: I still don’t think it’s perfect.


b). Counter Suite

1. Force of Will needs no real explanation. Force just fits due to the tap out nature of the deck. It’s also a required evil for combo decks as Spell Snare and Misstep only go so far.

2. Spell Snare is another card needing virtually no explanation. You do not like to see Hymn to Tourach, Dark Confidant, or opposing Stoneforges the most. The number of these can be adjusted to suit. The card is just everything you want on the draw. This is a card I may adjust my list up to a three of. It’s that good in here.

3. Mental Misstep is the pride and joy of the deck. Preventing untimely Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, Lacky, Thoughtseizes, and other Missteps is too good to ignore. It’s usually saved for one of those cards in specific. Savvy Goblins players have learned to cast Lacky first to bait out a Misstep and then cast a Vial right after. If you have the removal you save these for Vial.

c). Removal package

1. Swords are the premiere removal of choice and were cut to three but can easily go to 4 if needed.

2. Grim Lavamancer was added to fight the fish menace and has performed extravagantly. It’s well known how good these are against them and just playing them makes you feel like it’s an unfair advantage. It kind of is. They also were added to keep cards like Swords from being so dead in a control or combo match. 2 points can make a difference sometimes.

d). Equipment

I tried most of the swords at one time or another. In fact my early board was filled with most of them so I could board them in against appropriate colors and see which ones I liked the best.

1. Sword of Ice and Fire won it’s spot. It’s the best overall. The draw is actually needed due to the loss of the Hawks and the 2 damage can add up on an opponent quickly or keep the table clear of small critters.

2. Sword of Body and Mind won the last spot in the board mainly due to it’s ability to let a Stoneforge go past a Knight or Goyf and provide a blocker for those guys. The mill is rarely worthwhile, but protection from blue was worth it just for Jace, the Mind Sculptor since you tend to only have one creature out at a time.

3. Umezawa’s Jitte is still just a back breaking play for so many decks so it won its spot. It’s worth noting that it’s sometimes not a first choice against some decks like goblins despite how good it is against them. Fire and Ice is actually better due to the protection. It’s a judgement call on the particular deck you are playing against.

4. Batterskull. It’s the real reason you beat aggro. The lifegain and vigilance make a huge difference. It’s a terrible card without a stoneforge, but with one, it’s godlike. Dropping a third turn 4/4 lifelink vigilance is pretty scary to most decks. It’s even quite good against control as the clock is fairly fast. You just have to keep in mind you can return it to hand if need be especially if the stoneforge mystic is still alive to put it right back in for 1W.

5. Basilisk Collar is best attached to a Lavamancer enabling them to kill anything that can be targeted easily. It’s also no slouch on a Clique when you want to race. It makes blockers much better when you can kill anything the equipped creature touches. This card can buy time to outdraw people if you get into a stalemate. Going into the long game is fine with this deck.

e). Creatures and Planeswalkers

1. Stoneforge Mystic is the core of the deck and the entire reason the deck works as well as it does. Searching equipment up, making them uncounterable, making them cost less, and putting them into play at instant speed is his job and he does it all for the low, low price of 1W. This is the spell you cast turn 2. You untap, then wait until the appropriate time to drop whatever you searched for. Typically, the best pick is Batterskull. It’s a fast clock, huge life gain difference, and reusable if it comes down to it. Against decks with large amounts of removal Jitte or the Sword can be the better pick if you expect the Mystic not to live long enough to drop that Batterskull.

You have Spell Snare, Force, and Misstep to ensure he lives that long, but it happens.

2. Magus of the Moon is a recent addition, but he is well on his way to being one of my favorite cards in the deck. He does the obvious plays of destroying Lands, Bant, BUG Landstill, and Team America on his own. I have on occasion kept him in against decks like burn to turn off Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mishra’s Factory, and other annoying lands. If you play this deck, you need to get into the habit of fetching basic lands up from fetchlands first. He is the reason why. You need double blue most, then double white later for the planeswalkers. You have plenty of time so don’t feel obligated to drop him as fast as possible. Against the decks he’s best against, you wait it out anyway. BUG landstill will spend it’s time destroying your lavamancers and stoneforges, then you drop this and watch them cry. He’s not even all that bad against Merfolk being that he kills Mutavault and Wasteland even in that deck which is quite nice to have happen. I rarely board him out.

3. Jace – Ummm yeah. What can I say that hasn’t been said a million times before? About the only reason I don’t have 4 of this guy in here is because you will find a lot of your game being over before you ever get to 4 mana. Stoneblade is one fast deck and tends to blow people over with an early onslaught some decks just do not handle very well so two seemed to be the right number. I tried three for a long time and I was annoyed at how often he got stuck in my hand in multiples. Brainstorm, Sword draw, Stoneforge and Fetch filter, and the occasional Clique self hit are plenty to find him when you want him.

4. Elspeth. Providing sword dudes is her job. Job two is pumping whoever happens to have the sword at the time. She can make a quick clock a really, really quick clock. I have used her just to soak up damage a few times. People get scared of her and you can almost count on her for two turns worth of damage to soak up. Calculate that into your combat math and racing can be an alternate way to go sometimes. She was tried out at a copy of one and three copies. Three was way too much as you don’t like trying to cast 4 mana spells out of this deck. 1 copy was too few since the pump can be a game ender more often than not. Try it out all you like and you’ll find the same conclusion. She is the coup de gras when you see her.



The Sideboard choices are more of a suggestion. I do highly recommend the Collar, Sword, Crypt, Firespout, and Submerge. They are quite handy and used a lot.

I have not used the Canonist yet, but I haven’t ran into many storm decks I feared all that much. It’s soo hard to find a good storm player to test with. It’s a result of the thinking that they will bring in anti-counterspell type cards and not the bounce that most storm pilots would. I play Storm enough to know that much. It would shock me to see a control deck do that. This is a spot that needs more testing. The main may be enough.

Divert is exchangeable with Spell Pierce if preferred. Either suffices. Pierce is probably better in the long run, but I have a soft spot for turning people’s Hymns in their faces. It just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Use about 3 for either.

Engineered Explosives was on the way out, but can be added. You would want it for enchantments like Counterbalance or Thopters if you have them in your area. I took it out since I rarely see those decks anymore.

Peacekeeper - Totally for Sneak and Show decks. You can always hose Merfolk some more too and Force a Jace through for a win on them or build Voltron with your Inkmoth and let it die.

*Orim’s Thunder is completely untested. This is a result of hitting mirror matches at my local store. Heh, didn’t take long for Stoneblade to catch on with them there. Orim’s Thunder seems like the perfect card for dealing with this deck. (Thanks Finn for the idea). It’s the only card that lets you deal with a Batterskull and the Mystic without 2 for 1’ing yourself. Very good idea and definitely worth playing a couple if this deck catches on en masse and it’s looking like it will. This virtual 2 for 1’s them instead. That can’t be a bad thing.

Crawlspace* – Untested - I didn’t mess with it much, but it’s one of those cards that just seems like it might be a natural fit. You only ever seem to attack with one creature at a time and limiting others to swinging into a 4/4 lifelinker doesn’t seem bad.


V. Cards That Didn’t Make the Cut

Squadron Hawk – Vendilion Clique just flat took it’s spot. Plain and simple it’s crappy on it’s own. Despite the Jace and Brainstorm interaction of being a pseudo-Ancestral, it’s still not as good as a Clique.

Moat – Initially used to counter heavy aggro strategies. Batterskull obsoleted it overnight.

Sword of Feast and Famine – Leaning heavier on being a quick aggro with counter back up deck made this card obsolete. It’s still good, but the other swords serve the core purpose just better.

Sword of War and Peace – I tried it, I hated it. Win more in it’s simplest form.

Path to Exile – Swords was already going down to 3. Path is the sub par version in this deck. Life is more irrelevant than the land was.

Celestial Colonnade – The tapped part of it was becoming more of a hindrance than the late game help. The games rarely go past the mid game now so it seemed unneeded.

Counterspell – Spell Snare was hitting everything I was countering with Counterspell. It seemed an obvious upgrade since speed was becoming a priority.

Enlightened tutor – I am fond of boarding this card for bullets, but it just wasn’t needed main since Stoneforge gets you most of what you are wanting.

Ponder – I never seemed to want to do this during the first few turns and Jace overshadowed it hard later. Moved out for room.

Thopter/Sword Combo – I tried it, but I have never been all that impressed by that combo for some reason. It’s not bad, but every deck I have it in, I tend to kick it out. It might be my bias against it, but I didn’t like having to play so controlling instead of going for the throat.

SpellStutter Sprite – Every time I play that card I am annoyed at how it always comes down a turn late for my taste. I hate how I can have it in my hand and they play a vial. I have 1 mana out. Grrrrrr. They play a confidant, I have two mana out, but it still doesn’t hit him. Grrrrr. If I played with Riptide Laboratory, I might want one. Spell Snare just makes this guy seem meh to me.

Tolaria West – The lack of targets for this card eventually kicked itself out. It’s awful slow too. I hated transmuting on my own turn when I could do other things like drop a sword or Batterskull for my turn 3. Late game, I have Jace and Elspeth, which play seems more powerful to you?

Seasinger – My god getting this into play off someone else’s Show and Tell is hilarious if they drop Emrakul. Still, it wasn’t awesome for Projo so it left. Peacekeeper will probably make it into my board if I expect that type of stuff now.

Humility – Aside from the fun of making people call the judge and making him groan, it’s really not helpful to turn off your own stoneforges. Magus still works which is cool, but Lavamancer doesn’t. That makes me sad. Bye Humility. I love yous.

Chrome Mox – what do you really want to imprint on this? It’s such an oucher. Not really worth it anyway since you are just going to keep Spell Snare and Misstep mana open anyway.

[dahcmai]

VI. Cards that are borderline or playable with changes.

Academy Ruins – Very playable and would definitely be worth using with EE if added back. I prefer the Magus of the Moon over this package, but it’s preference.

Sword of Light and Shadow – Close to being useable due to that life gain and against a heavy removal deck, you might want this handy. It’s excellent against decks with a ton of removal since they tend to be white and black removal spells and bringing back dead duders from the grave can provide a stream of targets they can’t handle well. Very borderline. I only chose Body and Mind over it due to the anti-Jace protection and the ability to attack through Goyfs and Knights which is a huge advantage.

Crucible of Worlds - I never found a good spot where I would want to cast this over something else. It eventually went out due to space constraints, but it’s good. Try it and see if you like it. I have a wasteland heavy meta and I still didn’t like it, but you may.

Back to Basics – I highly considered this card since going all basics for a game isn’t real hard. It’s devastating to a lot of decks, but not so much to you despite all the non-basics. I ended up siding with the Magus for an extra body to equip, but it’s another choice thing.

Enlightened Tutor – Wait, that’s in the cut list too! Yes, I might play these in the board, but not main. It’s kind of a crappy card considering the disadvantage of playing them, but silver bullets are nice to free up board space and that’s the only reason I’d play it. I’m a fan of CA.



VI. Why Should I play This Pile?

Do you hate Aggro decks that everyone plays? Do Merfolk, Goblins, and the other usual decks like Landstill fill your meta and make you want to throw up anymore since it’s all anyone at your store seems to build? You want to play this. If that’s all you see, you play this and crush! Send those noobs home to build a new burn deck. Go play EDH during our tournament bad deck players. Random Jank? Nom nom nom. The only decks StoneBlade does not really want to see are being shoved onto the wayside lately. Combo decks are about the only thing that’s fairly tricky since your counters are conditional. Oh noes, I only have Force of Will, Spell Snare, and Misstep for combo. That’s the bad match up you say?

The deck is very technical and requires you to get used to it. Every turn is a thinking game on what to do and what to hold back on. What can the other guy do next turn? What can I do now and protect it. It’s like the control players aggro deck. It’s that fun to play.



VII. Match-ups
a.) Bant
b.) Merfolk
c.) Goblins
d.) Ichorid
e.) UWx Landstill
f.) Zoo
g.) 43 Lands
h.) Sneak and Show
i.) Burn
j). Combo
k). Rock
l). Maverick
m). Team America



a.) Bant – To be determined. More testing needed, but looks promising.

b). Merfolk – Ah, you overly prolific deck you. I have a lot of respect for that deck, I really do. Enough respect to where I tuned this one to dominate the crap out of it. It’s still fairly tricky, but definitely in your favor. Lavamancers are golden. Stoneforge getting into play with a Batterskull will obviously be scary to them.

c). Goblins - StoneBlade crushes Goblins. How, you say? Tell you more?
They play Lacky. You have Swords, Lavamancer, Misstep, Force, or your hand is flat better than that lousy play and you’re not going to care about some stupid lacky. They have vial? You have Mystic who just went and got a Batterskull for you that is probably going to trump the hell out of whatever they play off that vial. Or you can just counter the stupid thing.

They have tin Street Hooligan though, Batterskull is not so good. You have Spell Snare, Hooligan is not so good. Hooligan is the only card you care about? Oh yeah, that’s right, he pretty much is. Batterskull is a frigging beating. Goblins, meet Lavamancer, Batterskull’s buddy. Sword of Fire and Ice on anything is probably game by itself. Play this match, it’s so fun. It’s like the Merfolk match up, but a little easier. About all you have to watch for is the Lacky first turn play, then Vial next turn. Vial is worse than lacky any day. You can win with it out so it’s not that bad, but it’s a lot easier to add up damage and race if you don’t have to add in siege gang damage each time. It’s funny because you end up countering Matron a lot since she goes and gets the one guy who can kill your Lavamancers because you can’t counter cycling. It’s really annoying, but a fun match to play.

d). Ichorid – very tricky. You have to play this very technical to get by, but it’s not so bad if you know the match up. Keep Lavamancer out to remove bridges with himself if need be. Stoneforge into Sword of Fire and Ice is what you want to see. They can usually overpower a Batterskull’s lifegain and Sword is faster damage on top of refilling your counters. Jitte will do if your mana works out better. Missteps need to be saved for Therapy unless you can snag the first turn dump spell. If you catch the first turn dump spell you’re probably winning. Board in hate, counter needles, blah blah. Usual dredge game from there.


e). Uxx Landstill – The BUG version is all about the Magus. Play like normal and try to shove him through as the last thing. If you get him into play before Jace without a deed on the table, you won. Easy enough. It’s not a fun match up, but at least you have a serious hoser for them. Be careful of them floating mana for a way to kill Magus after you cast it. Some versions run instant speed removal over the Innocent Bloods. Keep in mind you can return that Batterskull. It comes in handy doing that.

UW is tricky because these two decks are actually kind of similar. You have to get that Stoneforge in so your equipment doesn’t get countered. It’s a very overly technical match. You really want a hand with a Mystic and Force/Misstep back up. Lavamancer can do a scary amount of damage if you sneak one in also. I won a couple on his back before. Sword of Body and Mind is pretty good in this one. They have the advantage with more counters and more Jaces so play tight. It’s all about the Mystic. You can’t go long with them, they have more draw than you do.

f). Zoo – Needs more testing, but pretty good so far. Firespout helps a ton. Batterskull is amazing if you can keep the Pridemages off the table. Spell Snare should always hit him. Remember to fetch up those basics. Price is not fun. Another one of those matches I kind of want the Sword of Light and Shadow. Swap out the Sword of Ice and Fire for Body and Mind.

g). 43 Lands and variants – I’m sorry. This is going to hurt. Badly. Magus, Misstep, and Jace on top of a very fast clock. Not cards they want to see. It’s really, really, really in your favor. It makes you feel horrible having to play against one.

h). Sneak and Show – This match just sucks. It’s not fun. You have one hope. They lose the counter war over the Show and Tell or sneak attack. If they get it, you lose. Especially, if they drop Projo. Karakas is your only way short of Jace to get rid of Emrakul. So win the counter war and pray it’s not Projo if you lose it. It’s the whole reason I might add a Peacekeeper back to the board. We have a guy in this area that plays it every single week. I end up playing against him every single week. It’s so back and forth, but he kills me most of the time. You have to take that deck for the long run and pray you can hold out. Fake the counter and if you can go the long game, you got it.

i). Burn – It’s pretty easy. Fetch up Batterskull, counter stuff that goes for Mystic, put in Batterskull, attack till dead. If you feel mean, show them a few non-basics game 1 so they board in Blood Moons. Hee hee.

j). Combo – Ah the dreaded combo.
TES – Unfortunately, I have very few people to test this against that really know the deck well. It’s hard to find good pilots of this one. It doesn’t seem to horrible, but I put Canonists into the board just in case.

Belcher – If they have the nuts, you better have Force. That’s all there is too it. It’s all about those opening hands. It seems like it’s kind of in their favor. Canonists here again. Overall, it’s hard to say. I have very few combo players to test against anymore.

The UB Grim Tutor one. This one I didn’t mind playing against at all. I had a pilot for this one and I didn’t feel threatened much of anywhere in those games. Spell Snare hits a decent amount, Force is always good, and Misstep is just annoying enough to give me time to drop a clock. Ad Nauseum becomes useless quite quick no matter what you get, but Sword is best.

k). Rock - Definitely need testing. Haven’t ran into one yet. Seems like it’s would be a fun match though. Diverts, I bet those would be devastating.


l). Maverick – Not so bad really. It depends on what you draw first. Jitte and Batterskull are pretty good here. Sword of Body and Mind become amazing obviously. Just have to watch for those Pridemages as usual. This one can go either way quick depending more on your draw than theirs. Though multiple pridemages kind of sucks. Yet another reason I kind of want another Spell Snare. Stupid Lion.

m). Team America – This all depends on the draws early. After boarding, if you have the Pierces it’s such a blow out its sad. Spell Pierce is ridiculously good against them. The land destruction they toss out is rough so watch for those stifles. They can accidentally mana screw you easily. You don’t have a lot of “top deck land” ability. Hold the brainstorms and try not to use them just to find stuff, use them to protect. You need to blank as much as possible especially game one. You have to hold Spell Snares for Confidants, Missteps for Thoughtseizes, and pray you have a swords to protect Jace by the time you can play him. The game is going to go long and that’s where you want it to go. It’s pretty much in their favor, but tight play will pull you through.


VIII. Additional Material

These are not identical lists, but it does show the trend of moving to a stoneforge package that is very similar. I list them here as comparisons to the one I put up. Obviously, the deck is slowly forming a core and it’s only a matter of time before the rest of the deck finds it’s best pieces.


Other versions placing decently in SCG legacy opens.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39298 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39298)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39291 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39291)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38862 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38862)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38856 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38856)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39293 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39293)

Owen Turtenwald’s version from GP Providence.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38878 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38878)

95 man tournament 1st place
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6418&iddeck=46492

95 man tournament 5th place
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6418&iddeck=46496

[dahcmai]

I'll get the sideboard strategies and a little guide on each match up better detailed later on. too much typing for one day.

[TkDodo]

Thanks for writing this up. I have a few questions:

I see a lot of builds with 4 SFM and only two equipments (like Batterskull and a Sword). Won't the situation come up quite some time where you draw a Mystic, but can't tutor up anything, either because it's your third one, or because it's your second/first one and you just drew the Equipments naturally?

On the other hand, if I were to play with 3 Equipments maindeck (Batterksull, a Sword and Jitte), how many creatures do you think one should play to not come in a situation where you have an Equipment, but no one to carry it? Like you said it, going for a sword first because you think SFM won't survive long enough to cheat Batterskull into play. This can only be good if you have enough beaters to carry the sword.

Thanks,
TkDodo

[dsck]

I have been contemplating the following list:

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Wrath of God
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Peacekeeper
2 Misdirection
- Meddling Mages
- E. Tutor package
- More equipments?

I will test something like above on wednesday, any opinions or suggestions on the list are much appreciated.

[Tom T]

Dahcmai, you beat me to it. I was writing a primer on this deck, when I saw this haha.
You did an awesome job on the primer!

The Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull combination has recently been toyed with in control decks and resulted in some new deck-types.
- Patriot (UWR Agro-Control)
- UWB Mystic-Blossom (UWB Agro-Control)
- Caw Blade (UW Agro-Control, more agro than control)
- UW(x) Stone-Blade (UW Agro-Control, more control than agro)

Is this thread about all those decks, or just the UWR Agro-Control version?
If so, would it be wise to post my primer on UW(x) Stone-Blade?

Tom

[Scatterbrain]

One glaring problem with the "current" list in the first post is that it cannot cast Elspeth with Magus out due to having only one Plains.

My personal suggestion for improvement on that list would also include -1 Misstep, +1 Jace, TMS. Jace is just so amazing right now, especially when you can properly defend him, like this deck can.



I see a lot of builds with 4 SFM and only two equipments (like Batterskull and a Sword). Won't the situation come up quite some time where you draw a Mystic, but can't tutor up anything, either because it's your third one, or because it's your second/first one and you just drew the Equipments naturally?


I think it is correct to play the build he has above, with 1 each of SoFI, Jitte, and Batterskull. It gives you a target all of the time you need it since if you already have 3 in hand/play drawing a 1/2 as something to carry them is fine. This also gives you extra power with Brainstorm if you have one in your deck which you don't want in the current game, you can shuffle it back.

[maurobad2k4]

What about the Mirran Crusaders that a few lists were playing in the Sb ? They're not worth anymore ?

[Tinefol]

I went for a controllish version of Patriot, which reminds me greatly of Ultimate Walker (remember that deck?)

So this is what I'm playing:

2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Ancestral Vision - I love CA
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile - could be Spell Snare
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine - still think this is the best Sword for the deck.

I've cut on Wastelands for a more stable and compact manabase. I don't like Elspeth because of its double white, and Magus is something I've yet to try. Whenever I see a deck with 3 STP I facepalm. Don't do this.

[yutang]

I can confirm that the Death and Taxes (green splash) MU is a hard matchup for us.

[dahcmai]

@tkdodo - Yes, that comes up, but not as often as you would think. Equipment tends to stay out and just get equipped again so it's rarely a problem. I pushed that a little bit into the safety zone by using three. You don't have use for more than 3 too often. Even if there's nothing to search for, a body to slap 3 pieces of equipment on is usually sufficient to be quite scary. It's actually pretty rare to have nothing to search for.

The situation of having nothing to put the equipment on comes up far more often than having no equipment, but I think it's at a good balance right now. If I pulled two creatures, I think I would only replace them with 2 at this point. Even boarding out the Maguses makes me want to have two creatures to board in that this point.

@dsck - First off, you will find yourself lacking for targets to equip things to a lot. I have a hard time against decks with a lot of removal sometimes and I have more than double the creatures. Playtest against mono-black control. If you can push through that amount of removal even a couple times you are ok. that particular old deck has a ton of removal and it could beat old Thresh decks in their prime just due to that. It's my testbed for removal testing. You're going to want Karakas at the minimum for that Clique. You have very little to push through in that list. You need one of them to live longer than a few turns and that's hard to accomplish against a deck like Zoo that has Swords, Path, and bolts all at once. BUG Landstill does a heck of a job wiping the board clean also. That or go up to 4 Jaces and go completely into the control realm and use him as the win con. You will also find yourself trying to do too much in the early turns. Daze is rough when you are wanting to hold out 2 mana for at least two turns. I think you will find you hate the card eventually and end up with pierces like I did. Visions is a great card if you are going for more control than aggressiveness. I was playing around with it a lot, but I always regretting tapping out for it first turn when people would drop something I wanted to Snare or Misstep. You're most definitely going to up the creature count, change them into creatures that are harder to kill, or just go heavier control and rely on Jace more. It just scares me having that few of guys to actually try and win with.

@TomT - I was more or less going over each of them, but I still think I found the sweet spot for the colors. I did try Bitterblossom and black for a bit and hated it. It was nice having the extra bodies, but I fell in love with red for Lavamancers. Red just hands you the merfolk match and a few others all by itself. I can't think of too many the deck is all that bad against now. This deck was just an evolution from UW Caw Blade and people will try the other variants, but I think they will end up with the same conclusion especially in the case of the Hawks. You can post yours if like, that's up to you. It might be helpful for all I know. Haven't read it. : ) People can discuss the other ones here if they like. I'm just not a fan of them since I already tried them. This has been a favorite deck of mine for a long time now. Straight UW is pretty good, I just hate losing to Merfolk and as good as that version is, it's got that weakness I just hate.

@scatterbrain - That missing land really isn't a mistake. It's the non-perfect part I was referring too in that. I really want that plains, but I can't see myself pulling anything for it considering how the deck tends to play out. In the games where I am going to want Elspeth, I never care about the Magus and he's shuffled back in almost every time. When I want the Magus, Elspeth is almost never needed. It's weird, but it just works out that way. Yeah, it probably should have one more out of principle, but I just keep finding myself never wanting it. It's a small dilemma that I fought with for a while. If you want one, pull a Tundra. It's got the spot for it. You can try it, but you might find yourself out of blue here and there and that was the reason I did that. Good eye for catching that though. : )

The Misstep's I don't think I would change. Reason being is when you're playing it, you tend to want to drop a turn 2 Mystic always. She instantly becomes the prime target for Spell Snare, Swords, Innocent Blood, lightning bolt, and a host of other goodies. I really, really want her to drop whatever she searched for. Usually, if you get a Sword or Batterskull off her, you won right there. There's not much coming back from it once the counter war is over. Sometimes they can fight for a bit, but typically they are depleted from trying to kill it. Free counters are a premium. Jace is amazing of course, but it's rare you want to go into a long game against too many decks. The third Jace's spot is being used by Elspeth. They can be a little interchangeable depending on the meta. I tend to play aggressive, but it's still a matter of taste.

@Muarobad - Mirran Crusader is a very good card and if your meta is infested with Maverick, it's a decent choice. I forgot to add him to the borderline card list actually. He's just narrow. Hence why people used him in boards only. Protection from green can be pretty good, but the only deck that cares about that is literally Maverick. Bant does to an extent, but their removal is white also. That was the main reason I pulled him completely. That and Zoo flat doesn't care at all. Three mana is a lot for a guy that dies to virtually all the removal out there and has no utility at all. Little utility guys seemed a better choice since they were all going to be larger than him in the end anyway. He hits hard, he's just a tad narrow for my taste. I wanted a card out of him for casting him if he died instantly. Magus is in the spot he used to be in. Give it a shot if you have an overabundance of green fatties around.



All in all, the deck is still in slow tuning stages, but I noticed I have been slowing down on changes quite a bit settling into what I like. The funny thing is I have noticed online the dailys are doing the same and settling into the same pattern. I keep seeing other versions of the deck and they are either quite close to what I am playing or earlier versions I played at one time. The deck was easy for anyone to come up with. It's frigging Caw Blade in Legacy. lol They are just all slowly coming to the same conclusions. I think I just jumped on the bandwagon a little sooner. No deck is ever finished and set in stone. You can change up a lot in this list and I will be constantly changing it up depending on what I see a lot of.

I think eventually you will see two versions. The RWU one you see here and a dedicated UW control version more closely related to Gerry Thompson's UW control than this one. I play against a person each week with one evolving into that. The core Stoneforge/counter package is obviously strong and won't change. It's just up to the meta to eventually learn to deal with it and then we curve the deck into the hate.


@tinefol - Try the Magus. You'll love it. It feels so good to crush certain decks with him. you will almost never board him out once you realize how many Wastelands and Mishra's Factories he kills. Hosing colors is gravy.

Yes, I know playing 3 swords is chancy. I only do it because we have heavy, heavy combo and control around here. If it's not those two, it's Merfolk or Goblins. Nothing else really. You can beat Goblins and Merfolk with 3, so I didn't care too much. I didn't want dead cards. It's another interchangeable spot. If you have a ton of aggro, by all means go to 4.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know that I am the guy that hates Batterskull, but if your actual plan is to play SFM pretty much just for Batterskull you're really going to want to play two of them. With Pridemage and Tin Street running around in fast decks you're not going to always have the luxury of sitting around waiting to play safely around artifact removal and a lot of these Stoneblade lists tend to suck once Batterskull dies since they don't have the creature count, as you note, to really support Jitte or Sword of Relevance To Your Meta.

Also I think you really need to test against someone that's competent with Goblins, because the deck has a lot more power than turn 1 Lackey, especially if you're not putting quick pressure on them, and if you think they roll over to Batterskull because, "Red hates lifegain right?" you've got another thing coming. Goblins, besides being a very underrated deck right now, does not give much of a fuck about germ tokens. They don't have evasion, Goblins has infinite chump blockers, and there are few decks in the metagame that can control the board as thoroughly if it goes to the late game. This is infinitely much more true if you let them stick a turn 1 Vial, Batterskull is rarely going to be enough to deal with that.

Also I am not sure what else is going on but StP is one of the few cards it is pretty much always wrong to run as a 3x. StP is probably the second most undercosted spell in the format, besides Brainstorm.

Basically though my problem is that Turtenwald's list knew what role it wanted to play and was built for that. This list seems like it wants to be able to switch to aggro mode more frequently, but it really doesn't have the bite to pull it off, just Cliques and if you can stick it Batterskull. Which also makes Wasteland terrible because Jesus Christ people why do you always put 4x Wasteland in every slow deck that can't support it and is just going to lose more often to not having the right color mana itself.

I've had this problem trying to make Vampires work lately, and it just seems like if you're not going to be able to reliably switch to aggro mode you should go full tilt for control, because control-aggro-control is a miserable archetype. Alternately just give the deck more bite, although it's fairly hard to do that without going green. Although as the creature count goes up running 4 SFM + 2 Batterskull becomes worse as more often you just want a Jitte. I like the Elspeths though, seems like it does a lot of things you want to do all at once.

Also I know everyone is in love with Clique atm but you might want to try testing Serendib Efreet in that slot because Zoo seems like a miserable matchup and it'd help to have one threat that didn't die to Lavamancer/Bolt.

[pippo84]

Congratz on the primer! I was toying with a list I wrote last week, and have to try it soon. It's quite similar to yours..
One thing I don't understand is why play Wasteland?? You don't play tempo with Stifle and you don't pack Daze so I don't think it's s good call here. Please explain me your choice..

I also like the UBW lists with Bob and Blossom, but I think that UWR is better performing in the current meta..

[Tinefol]

Well I pretty much had all the in mind, when constructing the list. I went the control route with Visions, no wastelands, more removal and a line of play to overwhelm the opponent with card advantage.
I guess running 2 Batterskull is a reasonable thing, but so far I haven't found it to be necessary.

I'd agree Goblins isn't as good of a match up as described, you pretty much need active Lavamancer and active Jitte for a guaranteed win. They have the means to fight through that. A lone Batterskull doesn't do it for sure.

[kiblast]

I'm testing this pile of cards since there were 4 pidgeons in it. And all I have to say is that IBA is right on all the points, specially the one regarding Wastelands.What's the point of running Wasteland here, if you run Magus too? this deck wants a lot of specifical mana for Jaces, Elspeths and Cliques.Therefore I'm playing -4 Wastelands +2 Fetchlands and +2 basics. You could play Wasteland as a 2of only for Maze of Ith, but that's it.

I don't know about the good old Serendib Efreet. I know Clique dies easily, but there are games when your gameplan is:

*turn 1: Counter their threat.
*turn 2: Counter their threat.
*turn 3: Vendilion their threat at end of draw step.
*turn 4: drop Jace.

And obviously Vendilion acts as an added protection. I might try Serendib ( if you really need more beaters) in place of Magus. This also increases the blue counts which is at 21 in my build.

The 4th Stp is absolutely needed.

I don't see any reason to play more than 4 planeswalker and less than 3 Jace. My split is 3 JTMS/ 1 Elspeth.

As much as I feel that this deck needs 2 Batterskull, I'm unconvinced about cutting Jitte (which probably is your only out against Goblins and Folks, in conjunction with Lavamancer).

Edit:



I'd agree Goblins isn't as good of a match up as described, you pretty much need active Lavamancer and active Jitte for a guaranteed win. They have the means to fight through that. A lone Batterskull doesn't do it for sure.

Exactly.

[Malakai]

I made some points here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20317-Caw-Blade-in-Legacy&p=564572&highlight=#post564572) that I think are salient, despite my list being rather divergent from what you've posted here.

[Final Fortune]

This deck absolutely does not have a positive match-up vs. Goblins, I don't know what Goblins players you are testing against but they do not care about Batter Skull at all and will Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator your Grim Lavamancers all day long. The only way you can beat Goblins is to resolve an Umezawa's Jitte and equip it, which is hard as fuck to do because every creature you equip it to easily dies to their removal.

I think you're going to quickly realize just how much you miss Tarmogoyf (or maybe Serendib Efreet) in this match up, the lack of non-Bolt proof asses that can pick up a Jitte is debilitating.

[dahcmai]

Not sure what kind of godlike goblins players you have that always have 4 Incinerators in hand, but I haven't had much problem out of that deck even after over 100 games against it. It seems to come down more if they have Vial right after Lacky or 2 vials when you only have one answer to it. Vial is a pain. That is a little overstated, but you can win through it. It's not the end of the world. Batterskull is really decent, but the Sword is better for the midrange. You kind of have to expect them to blow up the batterskull with a hooligan eventually and take over with the sword. It's just a matter of putting on pressure while they fight through the removal and counters.

It's not some bad match up like people say. And what goblin players play Bolt?


Though I actually do kind of like the idea of Serindib in a way. Zoo is fairly miserable.


Wasteland pretty much stayed just for Mishra's and Mutavaults really. That and Academy ruins can be a serious pain. Putting people down a land when you are getting impressive isn't a bad thing either. Wastes are a holdover from the original really, but I haven't seen a need to remove them as the mana works well, but they could easily become Mishra's or just shore up the mana more, but I do kind of like the wastes just to clear out annoying recursive lands.

[Malakai]

You have not played 100 games against Goblins with this deck.

[Atlanos]

Hey!
I have a question.
I saw some list´s which play Ancestral Vision over Standstill.
Why some lists play Ancestral Vision over Standstill ?

My current list.

Creatures [7]
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [19]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments [4]
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers [4]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Artifacts [3]
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Lands [23]
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

[kiblast]

Not sure what kind of godlike goblins players you have that always have 4 Incinerators in hand

Seems nobody has ever ''eot vial in Matron, get Gempalm, next turn vial in Ringleader, gain ridiculous card advantage+ 2/2 haste body, cycle Gempalm on your Stoneforge'' against you? And mind you those are plays against which you can do next to nothing. Goblin is probably the best aggro deck right now which can easily switch control mode in late game, and just wait to crack a Matron / Ringleader off the top of library and vial it in to GG.



It seems to come down more if they have Vial right after Lacky or 2 vials when you only have one answer to it. Vial is a pain. That is a little overstated, but you can win through it. It's not the end of the world.

Again, no serious goblin player will ever keep a hand without pressure in the form of Vial+ Waste, or Lackey+ Misstep, or Waste + Port hands. Vial is not your only concern against them. And countering/swording dudes and Vials for the first 4 turns does not insure win unless you stick a Goyf in the meanwhile. They can recover faster than you in mid game and late game. And when they hit 4+ mana they're nearly unstoppable unless you have a fast clock, vials or not.


It's not some bad match up like people say.


Neither is a positive Mu.

[bradstone]

Dunno why you guys are freaking out about the goblins MU. Seems to me like this deck has all the right tools to stop goblins (Grim, Mental Misstep, StP, Batterskull, Spell Snare). As long as you don't let goblins explode in the early turns its pretty easy to win. After sideboarding you've also got firespout which just runs that deck over.

I have a UWR build that I went 3-1-1 with this past weekend that I'll post soon. I just need to tweek the deck slightly and tune up the sideboard.

[kiblast]

Dunno why you guys are freaking out about the goblins MU. Seems to me like this deck has all the right tools to stop goblins (Grim, Mental Misstep, StP, Batterskull, Spell Snare). As long as you don't let goblins explode in the early turns its pretty easy to win. After sideboarding you've also got firespout which just runs that deck over.



We're not freaking out, and I'm just pointing out some thoughts regarding a Mu that lots of player underestimates. Goblins.dec is extremely underrated.

I'd love to see some reports with UWR builds.

[dahcmai]

Here's some more from a decent sized tournament. Practically identical lists.

1st 48 players.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6190&iddeck=44887

2nd at same tournament
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6190&iddeck=44888


Well, I guess there's no convincing some people so try it yourself. I just put up what I think works well and what has been winning for me. It may not be the "perfect" build and could use some exchanges here and there, but the current list has treated me well so I stick with what works. You may think I overstate the Goblins match, but I don't feel like it's a bad one at all. I seem to have no problem with it so maybe it's just me lucking out over and over and over for a few night's worth of games. It could happen I guess.
Everyone has an opinion, they may be wrong, they may be right. Though I am starting to be sorry I bothered to write this at all. There's practically nothing constructive coming out of it. At least Bearassassin mentioned Serindib (which I do think is a decent idea for Zoo). That match can be abyssmal.

[lorddotm]

@kiblast I think you are overrating Goblins. I'm currently testing UW online, and it mashes on Goblins pretty well (I'm running Standstills, and a singleton WoG main. 2 Batterskulls). I can only imagine adding in 4 Lavamancers makes the match up even easier. But maybe giving up some of the awesomeness of the UW manabase isn't good? IDK.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

More than most other decks, there is a huge skill variance in Goblins pilots. More specifically between those who think it is an aggro deck and those who realize it is closer to combo-control. I can see perfectly how your list beats Goblins when the Goblins pilot tries to run aggro into a Batterskull et al.

What I fail to see is how you reliably break through a Goblins player who is willing to let you be the beatdown and establish late game dominance.

[kiblast]

More than most other decks, there is a huge skill variance in Goblins pilots. More specifically between those who think it is an aggro deck and those who realize it is closer to combo-control. I can see perfectly how your list beats Goblins when the Goblins pilot tries to run aggro into a Batterskull et al.

What I fail to see is how you reliably break through a Goblins player who is willing to let you be the beatdown and establish late game dominance.

This. So fucking this. Playing Goblins at a decent level is difficult. Also tuning the deck in reference of the meta / your playstyle is difficult. Is the most skillful aggro control deck available in legacy.As much as you are calling your matchup against Goblins positive, I'd say it's 50-50 at best.

Dahcmai, I appreciate your work writing this and you pushed me to test this archetype more. I absolutely love your addition of Magus. Still, I can't understand those clunky manabases with 23 lands and 7-8 colorless lands. I'm testing a 21 lands package (no Wastelands no Mishras no Inkmoth) and works perfectly while maximizing the power of Magus of the Moon ( 5 basics).

[dahcmai]

That's because we're greedy bastards when it comes to mana. Cmon, deny it, any of you.

Well, if it's any consolation, I'll have a damned good Goblins pilot coming back into town for August break from the military and I'll sit down and make him play like 50 games or so with me for our gaming night. He'll gladly try to prove me wrong over and over. I'll make a point of writing up details so when I come back you'll have a really detailed explanation of everything. If that guy doesn't beat me the majority of the games, it's positive and no one can argue it. That guy won entirely too much moolah off it.

My current tester isn't the greatest with that deck (he normally plays combo, though he is a good player) so that might have a bit to do with it. We did play a crap load of games so I figured out of all that I had a decent idea. If anything, he should have had enough god hands out of it to really give me a run for the money. I do mostly play test games boarded too. Maybe that has a weight on it. The Firespouts were in. I figure you play 2 games boarded and only 1 without it so it's better to know how that goes. It was the RG version too with Grips.


By the way, I'm going to try out the advice here and give it a shot without two of the Wastelands. I'm quite fond of randomly wasting people to throw off mana math, but I like Finn's idea of Tower of the Magistrate (mirror is common here) and the suggestion of a second Batterskull. I'm not going to add a second, but I had Academy Ruins in at one time. It's easy to add it back and that's basically the same thing. -2 Wastes +1 Academy +1 Tower. I'm happy with the colors so I didn't really think I needed a change there.


Magus is sooo fun. It's a blast alone to see people's faces when some 3 color control deck plops out a Blood Moon effect.

Still haven't got my Bant player to show up yet either. Got to see how that one goes.

[preddi]

Hey, i just built myself a version of this deck (UWr). Red mainly for sideboard though. I'm wondering what are good cards to board out after the first game against aggro decks like merfolk, other control decks and Team america?

[Einherjer]

OK guys, i got another version of stoneblade BW

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tower of the Magistrate

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader

1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Bitterblossom

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Ghastly Demise

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


What you think of this way putting it?

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Flames removed. Treat other users with respect, even when you disagree with them. -zilla
Goblins couldn't care less about Batterskull or a lone Grim Lavamancer. Have you been testing your Goblins matchup on MWS? Try playing against a real goblins player. Unless you're hitting with a Jitte the goblins player can't deal with or unless you're going Lynx, Nacatl, Kird Ape, Grim Lavamancer, Burn, Burn, Burn, you're always going to lose to Goblins. Seriously, get a grip.

[dahcmai]

Siding for me tends to be the red cards mostly since they are so meta specific. I'm not sure of your build so it's hard to say. I guess it depends on what's in those spots. Here's what I do, maybe you can extrapolate something out of it.

Sideboard vs Merfolk pretty much is just Firespouts really. I keep two in the board, though three can be worth it if you have a few in your area. I might go with three if I went to a Grand prix or larger tournament since people tend to love that deck and it's fairly easy to build. I typically pull Magus for them since he's going to die to them usually and he's really only good for turning off Mutavault and Waste against them. Good, but not as good as Firespout against them. -2 Magus +2 Firespout

Team America is a tricky one. It's one of my debatable matches. The Diverts are amazing vs them. Hence, it's a huge decision to pick between Pierces or Diverts in the board. That deck is actually pretty good against you pre-board so Divert is almost nessesary, but Pierces are just better overall against other things like hitting artifacts, enchantments, Jaces, and the like. I run Diverts, but it's narrow and I know it. It can be a pseudo-counterspell when needed so it's not too bad in control matches while being awesome against Rock and that's the only reason I use it. You tend to pull Lavamancers for that since they aren't going to kill much of anything out of Team America so he's only a 1/1 duder that shocks the opponent once in a while. He's good for keeping goyf low from your own grave, but I find they have no problem filling it up on their side. -4 Lavamancer +4 Divert Pierces are just about as good, just not as crushingly mean.

Submerge tends to replace Elspeth since it can be tricky to hold out that long to play her and I'd rather have some early defense and it's just generally good against decks with that many fetches and Tombstalkers. -2 Elspeth +2 Submerge


The BW version is one I didn't mess with too much so I can't really comment on it, though it does look quite good. Your version looks quite a bit different than the one I'm playing so I have virtually no experience trying out cards like Vindicate and discard in it. I do think you'll find that Tower to be pretty narrow. I added one over a Waste lately to give it a shot, but it's only because I see the mirror in the top 8 a lot and it's nice to have a small piece of tech.

I think someone is planning on making a primer for the BW version soon though. Hopefully, as I think they have two very different approaches.

[Hanni]

Since everyone is tossing around there versions of "Stoneblade" in here, am I right in assuming that this thread is for all U/W/x Stoneforge Mystic builds? Is there some sort of criterium for what the deck has to include to belong in here?

For shits and giggles, here's my U/W/b Fish circa 2011:

// Lands (18)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures (16)
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This version is more aggro than most of the lists, but is still a control deck at heart. It's very defensive early game, and packs alot of disruption elements to keep the board relatively clear or stable, until it is able to take dominant control over the game through a mass of card advantage. Mom + Equips give the deck a solid game against opposing aggro by dominating the red zone, while the countermagic, discard, and card advantage are strong against most matchups.

I'm still up in the air with the correct equipment package, but I'm leaning towards Batterskull not belonging in my maindeck. However, I may very well be wrong.

EDIT: Before I feel like an utter moron, I'm going to swap out the maindeck Sword of Fire and Ice, which has been a little lackluster, for a Batterskull. 5 5cc spells with Confidant is risky, but a turn 1 Mom, turn 2 SFM for Batterskull, turn 3 4/4 Vigilance Lifelinker doesn't sound half bad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since this thread is somewhat lacking at the moment...

I cut the number from 20 to 40 to save myself some tedium, but here's the average decklist for the past 20 decks listed as "Blade Control":

2.8 Island
1.15 Plains
0.1 Mountain
3.9 Flooded Strand
2.45 Polluted Delta
0.75 Scalding Tarn
0.6 Misty Rainforest
0.3 Arid Mesa
0.05 Windswept Heath
3.6 Tundra
0.5 Volcanic Island
0.25 Underground Sea
0.2 Tropical Island
0.15 Scrubland
0.05 Plateau
3 Mishra's Factory
2.45 Wasteland
0.25 Karakas
0.1 Academy Ruins
0.05 Faerie Conclave
0.15 Chrome Mox

3.95 Stoneforge Mystic
1.75 Vendilion Clique
0.2 Tarmogoyf
0.2 Dark Confidant
0.15 Grim Lavamancer
0.15 Bitterblossom

3.1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
0.05 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

0.1 Sword of the Meek
0.05 Thopter Foundry

1.2 Batterskull
0.45 Sword of Body and Mind
0.35 Sword of Feast and Famine
0.05 Umezawa's Jitte
0.05 Sword of War and Peace
0.05 Sword of Fire and Ice

3.75 Mental Misstep
3.55 Force of Will
2.65 Spell Snare
1 Daze
0.55 Counterspell
0.2 Hymn to Tourach
0.15 Counterbalance
0.15 Thoughtseize
0.1 Spell Pierce

3.75 Swords to Plowshares
0.45 Wrath of God
0.2 Repeal
0.1 Path to Exile
0.1 Engineered Explosives
0.1 Firespout
0.05 Oblivion Ring
0.05 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
1.75 Standstill
1.6 Ancestral Vision
0.45 Crucible of Worlds
0.45 Sensei's Divining Top
0.05 Enlightened Tutor

Or rounding:

3 Islands
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Other blue fetchland (people seem to like Polluted Delta strictly for the old school factor, although running it as a 4x marginally increases vulnerability to Pithing Needle I guess)
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
+
3rd Wasteland or utility land

4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Relevance To Your Meta

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstil
(or, slightly less likely)
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
1 Daze
1 Counterspell

So basically Turtenwald's list, with only a few people really trying anything radically different.

Some notes:

These builds in general seem heavily geared towards fighting against combo and other blue decks. It looks like your best bet is going to be something like Zoo, Goblins, or Maverick, which can outclass or overrun their threats.

Some of these manabases seem somewhat optimistic. I'm not sure why Team America isn't doing better here. If you're going to play Merfolk in a Blade Control heavy meta you should think about Stifle main.

These decks are light on sweepers and answers to resolved permanents generally. For some reason a control deck that is very light on creature count has decided its backup win condition is going to be an incredibly fragile flyer. I would think one would want that in the board for combo if anything, but I've never understood the fascination with that card exactly.

Most lists are also only running one Batterskull and so incredibly vulnerable to Pridemage or Vindicate, the latter of which will also hit their other bomby threat, Jace.

Also in the future I think I'll sieve out the smaller tournament lists and see what impact that has on the numbers.

On a side note, while this is going to be somewhat subjective, I think radically different decklists from what has been winning don't belong in the DTB threads about that deck, at least unless it's an archetype thread. If your list has more than ten cards off of what's winning, at least in terms of functionally different cards, then it's probably best off in another thread.

[Hanni]

Nice write-up Jack. You have entirely too much time on your hands :P

[John Cox]

I'm trying a second batterskull instead of sword of x/y, so far i'm really liking it. I 100% suggest people try it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh man it's true.

I don't suppose we could ask the Italians if it's possible to build a feature like this into their database so I don't have to spend an hour on this everytime, is it? Nihil?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Really all the equipment helps against goblins, swords/path helps against goblins, permission helps against goblins. This deck can deal with goblins.

Most lists only have Force as answers to Matron, Ringleader and Siege-gang. And then they're still card advantage. Spot removal and one for one answers really don't cut it. The reason old, 2007-era Landstill was good against Goblins was because it ran sweepers like Wrath and even, yes, Akroma's Vengeance. It was because it ran DoJ to throw a bunch of blockers out at instant speed and take out some guys without losing cards.

Blade Control really doesn't have the tools to answer a competent Goblins player who is willing and able to slowroll you. I'm not saying it's a hopeless matchup by any means, but it seems quite unfavored.

[John Cox]

Most lists only have Force as answers to Matron, Ringleader and Siege-gang. And then they're still card advantage. Spot removal and one for one answers really don't cut it. The reason old, 2007-era Landstill was good against Goblins was because it ran sweepers like Wrath and even, yes, Akroma's Vengeance. It was because it ran DoJ to throw a bunch of blockers out at instant speed and take out some guys without losing cards.

Blade Control really doesn't have the tools to answer a competent Goblins player who is willing and able to slowroll you. I'm not saying it's a hopeless matchup by any means, but it seems quite unfavored.

I'm not worried about matron or siege gang commander, I don't think they're cards that are that dangerous. I can see matron being a problem if they're running a b/r list (I only test against mono red), but I've never been that upset if my opponent hard casts or vials a seige gang commander. Usually I have a board position by then that is winning.

That said, firespout is a good card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not worried about matron or siege gang commander, I don't think they're cards that are that dangerous. I can see matron being a problem if they're running a b/r list (I only test against mono red), but I've never been that upset if my opponent hard casts or vials a seige gang commander. Usually I have a board position by then that is winning.

That said, firespout is a good card.

Most of these lists do not run Firespout, at least main, and do not have the capability to fight through a resolved Siege-Gang.

The problem is the Clique dies to anything and Batterskull can be chump blocked forever. The goblins player doesn't care much about you gaining a bunch of life because he can deal ridiculous amounts of damage once he's established board control.

[Hanni]

I'm not worried about matron or siege gang commander, I don't think they're cards that are that dangerous. I can see matron being a problem if they're running a b/r list (I only test against mono red), but I've never been that upset if my opponent hard casts or vials a seige gang commander. Usually I have a board position by then that is winning.

That said, firespout is a good card.

Without a way to prevent Goblins from putting 3+ Goblins into play a turn through Matron + Ringleader chains, you're eventually going to get overwhelmed by a huge alpha strike. Goblins doesn't care about you gaining 4 life a turn when it can alpha strike for lethal regardless. Without Stifle, you have no way of stopping Gempalm from killing your SFM before you get Batterskull into play, and if you're banking on hardcasting Batterskull, you're likely dead before it matters.

That said, Firespout is a good card, and goes along with exactly what IBA is saying: you need a sweeper against Goblins.

However, Jitte is fantastic against Goblins. As long as you have enough bodies to make sure one sticks (or can keep replaying Batterskull until it does), killing 1-2 Goblins a turn helps a great deal at curbing their creature production. Slap a Jitte onto a Batterskull germ token, and you're likely in business. Combined with spot removal to keep the relevant Goblins off the table, and that's about your best out to winning that matchup without a Firespout or other card advantage removal (i.e sweeper).

Why some of these lists are running 2 Batterskulls and 0 Jittes, I do not know. If you get 1 Batterskull online, wouldn't you much rather go for a Jitte next, to slap onto that germ token? Two 4/4 vigiliance lifelinkers seems alot less impressive than 4/4 vigilance lifelinker with an active Jitte, particularly against swarm aggro like Goblins.

[dahcmai]

I'd be curious on what those numbers would say if we divided up the RWU and the BW ones from each other. That BW version seems to be going in a totally different direction and has some odd choices that work for it, but not in the RWU case so it throws things off a bit. I do actually think they are two totally different decks despite the similarity. Discard, Confidant, and Bitterblossom add a unique aspect to it.


The point about Firespout might explain my findings as I mainly only played boarded games and in that case had Firespouts.

[Final Fortune]

Umezawa's Jitte isn't enough, the main problem with U/w/r is all of the creatures are in either Gempalm Incinerator or Mogg Fanatic range and Goblins can simply cycle and sacrifice the opponent's creatures and tempo away. Even with "resistant" threats like Mother of Runes and Bitterblossom, the time lost to removal in response to your equip is often a decisive victory and god forbid they MD Goblin Tinkerer(s)

The match up is horribly in their favor, I think you need Engineered Plague at 4x in the SB or it's a blow out.

Frankly, I fail to see the advantages of this over BANT, because Tarmogoyf is sorely missed. At best, you have a better game vs. Merfolk and that's about it.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

The point about Firespout might explain my findings as I mainly only played boarded games and in that case had Firespouts.

Except Firespout also kills all your creatures since they're as big as any goblin, and you can't beat their card advantage in a million years. Test against 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 3 Warren Weirding and 3 Goblin Tinkerer MD.


Umezawa's Jitte isn't enough, the main problem with U/w/r is all of the creatures are in either Gempalm Incinerator or Mogg Fanatic range and Goblins can simply cycle and sacrifice the opponent's creatures and tempo away. Even with "resistant" threats like Mother of Runes and Bitterblossom, the time lost to removal in response to your equip is often a decisive victory and god forbid they MD Goblin Tinkerer(s)

The match up is horribly in their favor, I think you need Engineered Plague at 4x in the SB or it's a blow out.

Frankly, I fail to see the advantages of this over BANT, because Tarmogoyf is sorely missed. At best, you have a better game vs. Merfolk and that's about it.

This.

[Einherjer]

What do you others think of my BW list i posted at page 2?
Because at the moment im playing with alot of proxed manabase - and i wanna invest in a manabase.... should i buy the manabase from BW or the Manabase from this version of Stoneblade:






2 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


3 Bitterblossom

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Chrome Mox


3 Scrubland
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea



Both Versions are kinda good, but IDK which oné is stronger. What do you guys think?

[Kellyx]

this version of Stoneblade

Its not stoneblade...its some kind of team america with mystics instead goyfs.
The guy who played this deck name it *esper blade* or so:Z
And your version on page2 is dead guy ale (some ppl play mystics there btw).And it has even less to do with stoneblade than the uwb version does.

[Nihil Credo]

Oh man it's true.

I don't suppose we could ask the Italians if it's possible to build a feature like this into their database so I don't have to spend an hour on this everytime, is it? Nihil?

Pablo is Spanish. There is that feature on the TC Decks site, if you click on a deck name from the Metagame page, but it's limited to 5 decks at a time, though even so it should help you. I suggest you use the contact form in the homepage, or this thread in the Spanish forums (http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3091&hilit=decks), to tell Pablo that you'd like to be able to compare more decks together, I can't see it being that complicated.

[Hanni]

Umezawa's Jitte isn't enough, the main problem with U/w/r is all of the creatures are in either Gempalm Incinerator or Mogg Fanatic range and Goblins can simply cycle and sacrifice the opponent's creatures and tempo away. Even with "resistant" threats like Mother of Runes and Bitterblossom, the time lost to removal in response to your equip is often a decisive victory and god forbid they MD Goblin Tinkerer(s)

The match up is horribly in their favor, I think you need Engineered Plague at 4x in the SB or it's a blow out.

Frankly, I fail to see the advantages of this over BANT, because Tarmogoyf is sorely missed. At best, you have a better game vs. Merfolk and that's about it.

This is all incredibly situational. I've played hundreds of games against the Goblins matchup with UWb Fish back in 2006, and Goblins has changed very little since then. UWb Fish, or Esper Stoneblade, whatever people want to call it now, has gotten far more significant upgrades than Goblins has.

That being said, without postboard Engineered Plague's, my old 2006 UWb Fish list had a solid 50/50 preboard matchup against Goblins. The thing is, Goblins doesn't always get the nuts. I've played Goblins plenty of times to know that you cannot always expect to see a turn 1 Lackey or turn 1 Vial. Even in the games where you do, you're not guarunteed to have them resolve. Just as Goblins has "tempo away" with 6 removal spells, UWb Stoneblade can tempo away Goblins with 4 removal spells and 12 countermagic spells. Gempalm Incinerator cannot kill anything in the first place if there isn't any Goblins on the board, and most Goblins decks don't run Mogg Fanatic anymore as an answer to a turn 1 Mother of Runes.

Again, it's all situational. Sometimes, Goblins just has a strong draw and overruns you. Sometimes, you have a strong draw, and you just don't let Goblins develop a board position until its too late for them. Regardless, 6 removal spells vs 16 creatures doesn't keep Jitte from finally getting active. 3 MD Tinkerer's? Sure, that's a great way to deal with Jitte, but I wasn't aware that Goblins were MD'ing 3 of them. Maybe newer lists? I haven't been keeping up with Goblins for the last 3 months or so. Even with 3 MD Tinkerer's, they still need Haste to avoid dying to an active Jitte, and an active Jitte should be keeping Warchief's off the board in the first place.

What was my point with all of this? It bugs me when people say things like "X deck has Y spells so that your Z spells will never work." In this case, "Goblins has 6 removal spells, so even with protective threats like Mother of Runes, you're 16 creatures are never going to get a Jitte equipped in time." Maybe in some games this will be true, but that's not how every game is going to turn out. Just as often, the Esper Stoneblade player will be saying "Esper Stoneblade has 12 countermagic spells, 4 removal spells, and 4 discard spells, so Goblins won't have any creatures in play by the time I cast and equip my Jitte."

And the matchup is not horribly in Goblins favor.

[Final Fortune]

This is all incredibly situational. I've played hundreds of games against the Goblins matchup with UWb Fish back in 2006, and Goblins has changed very little since then. UWb Fish, or Esper Stoneblade, whatever people want to call it now, has gotten far more significant upgrades than Goblins has.

That being said, without postboard Engineered Plague's, my old 2006 UWb Fish list had a solid 50/50 preboard matchup against Goblins. The thing is, Goblins doesn't always get the nuts. I've played Goblins plenty of times to know that you cannot always expect to see a turn 1 Lackey or turn 1 Vial. Even in the games where you do, you're not guarunteed to have them resolve. Just as Goblins has "tempo away" with 6 removal spells, UWb Stoneblade can tempo away Goblins with 4 removal spells and 12 countermagic spells. Gempalm Incinerator cannot kill anything in the first place if there isn't any Goblins on the board, and most Goblins decks don't run Mogg Fanatic anymore as an answer to a turn 1 Mother of Runes.

Again, it's all situational. Sometimes, Goblins just has a strong draw and overruns you. Sometimes, you have a strong draw, and you just don't let Goblins develop a board position until its too late for them. Regardless, 6 removal spells vs 16 creatures doesn't keep Jitte from finally getting active. 3 MD Tinkerer's? Sure, that's a great way to deal with Jitte, but I wasn't aware that Goblins were MD'ing 3 of them. Maybe newer lists? I haven't been keeping up with Goblins for the last 3 months or so. Even with 3 MD Tinkerer's, they still need Haste to avoid dying to an active Jitte, and an active Jitte should be keeping Warchief's off the board in the first place.

What was my point with all of this? It bugs me when people say things like "X deck has Y spells so that your Z spells will never work." In this case, "Goblins has 6 removal spells, so even with protective threats like Mother of Runes, you're 16 creatures are never going to get a Jitte equipped in time." Maybe in some games this will be true, but that's not how every game is going to turn out. Just as often, the Esper Stoneblade player will be saying "Esper Stoneblade has 12 countermagic spells, 4 removal spells, and 4 discard spells, so Goblins won't have any creatures in play by the time I cast and equip my Jitte."

And the matchup is not horribly in Goblins favor.

And I hate it when people claim a favorable match-up percentage vs. Goblins without testing their aggro-control pile vs. a player who actually knows what they're doing with the deck. If I had a nickel for every time somebody misjudged their home brew's win percentage vs. Goblins I'd be fucking rich, because this match up is decidely in Goblins favor.

And yeah, MD Tinkerer and/or Hooligan is standard considering every deck playing White is playing 4x Stoneforge Mystic.

[APodeschwa]

if i where u i would put the focus on the uwr deck rather than on the uwb deck. the black version is a little bit better against control but much worser against aggro - i played my uwr list in 4 tourneys yet and finished 4-0-2, 5-1, 6-1 and 4-0-1 -that's a total of 19-2-3 (1 intentional draw into top2). espially against the rising number of blue and hivemind decks red is a lot stronger than black. red is also stronger than black against GW.

a friend of mine also plays the uwr list and he is at nearly the same record.

black has also the problem that dark confidant dies too often in a meta with plenty of zoo and RUG order (and StP everywhere) and u can get better CA out of ancestral visions. and i suggest playing 4-5 wrath of god between main and sideboard - it's really a much better boardsweeper than firespout.

Capitalization is required when posting on these boards. Use 'em. -zilla

[vercadium]

From the newest DTB update, you guys are probably interested:

Pablo[the guy who maintains TCDecks] splits the various Stoneforge Mystic decks into two categories: "Blade Control" [which is a DTB for the month] and "Patriot". Roughly speaking, Patriot is an UWR or UWGR aggro-control deck that plays around a dozen creatures and little if any card drawing beyond a couple of Jaces, while Blade Control is usually UW or UWx, plays about a half-dozen creatures and often features the Landstill card advantage engine, sometimes replaced by Ancestral Visions.

The closest thread we have is dahcmai's Stoneblade primer, which focuses on a UWR style that is much closer to Patriot than Blade Control. Given that Patriot almost made the cut as well, we'll use that thread for the DTB; however, if you're interested in writing a good Blade Control primer, you're definitely welcome to do so! Just post it in the DTB forum and send a PM to me or any mod that is online.


This is the largest issue for this primer with me - The decks being discussed in this thread are integrally quite different and, regardless of their merits, are less played that the "more common" Blade Control. Commonly played card advantage engines like Standstill are not mentioned in the primer, save for a few deck links. As a general primer for the deck type, this is an important omission.

Might I suggest a thread renaming to help remedy this issue?

This is not a reflection on your work Dahcmai - I hold a great deal of respect for you :)

It would be great to have a Blade Control thread (With more deck experience I would be glad to write one myself) in order to help develop and tune what is evidentially a very powerful strategy in DTB.

[Humphrey]

I havent played the Deck yet, but Goblins. I like to see the fear from my petdeck, but I think most of you have no clue about actual decklists.
Usual Decklists run 4-6 Removal, depending on the splashes. I run 5 myself in RGB. 4 Gempalm, 1 Warren.
Nobodys running Fanatics atm, but it might be a choice when mothers and lavamancer are everywhere.
Goblin Tinkerer is an awful card, although some people running them as singletons main oder sb. Tin-Street is the weapon of choice or Tuktuk-Scrapper, combined with Shattering Spree or Ancient Grudge/Grips in the SB.

I think the matchup is quite tough, this deck has enough options to keep goblins in check and assemble a Jitte, Batterskull and/or race with Clique

[rancOr_]

I have played alot with the UW list from Owen and it's fairly good vs everything. The weakest MU's are indeed goblins/hive mind. It is around 40-60%mb and thats not so bad.
And can pple stop ranting about the goblins MU..Ok its most likely in their favor but its not the end of the world and u can still win vs them,its all situational.
I agree with splashing red for now,as u then have REB to fight Hive Mind which I think is also a bad MU without Red,and ofc the merfolk which sees play everywhere.
What I like alot about UW is the manabase,so if i were to splash red I'd probably only do it for REB/firespout/lavamancer in side although I can see lavamancer MD.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Again, it's all situational. Sometimes, Goblins just has a strong draw and overruns you. Sometimes, you have a strong draw, and you just don't let Goblins develop a board position until its too late for them. Regardless, 6 removal spells vs 16 creatures doesn't keep Jitte from finally getting active. 3 MD Tinkerer's? Sure, that's a great way to deal with Jitte, but I wasn't aware that Goblins were MD'ing 3 of them. Maybe newer lists? I haven't been keeping up with Goblins for the last 3 months or so. Even with 3 MD Tinkerer's, they still need Haste to avoid dying to an active Jitte, and an active Jitte should be keeping Warchief's off the board in the first place.

That's true, you're not always going to get the Jitte, but the answers are there and the matchup is definitely not easy.


Goblin Tinkerer is an awful card, although some people running them as singletons main oder sb. Tin-Street is the weapon of choice or Tuktuk-Scrapper, combined with Shattering Spree or Ancient Grudge/Grips in the SB.

Goblins has yet to see a decent Goblin to break artifacts. The 3 most common options are all awful. Though Tinkerer has the disadvantage you pointed out, it can be vial'd in and Tin Street can't. You also can't pay G for Tin Street when there's a Warchief in play. And Tuktuk is just too expensive. Again, what I just said is only true because Jitte exists. Overall, I still think Tinkerer is the best option.

[Jiaozy]

Having a weak/bad Goblin matchup is totally acceptable because the deck is basically non-existent at competitive level, what I would address is the bad Zoo MU, because against the so called "Cat Sligh" versions you'll hardly ever get to play + equip something since all the creatures you play are in burn range and the Pridemage are there to deal with the equipments you manage to land.

Straight UW has a better shot at it because it runs the Standstill CA engine, but UWr and UWb have a terrible MU against Zoo.

I've been trying all the possible cards against the deck, but with little success, is anyone else having the same problems?

[from Cairo]

Could Burrenton Forge-Tender, Tivadar of the Thorn, Galina's Knight or Absolute Law be used in the Sideboard to help pad the Goblins match up? I'm not sure which of these choices would be best, it would probably be somewhat list dependent, but they're all on color.

[dahcmai]

I pm'ed Nihil to rename this thread to Patriot since we really do need to differentiate the two from each other. The black version has a wholly different approach in my opinion and it seems I'm not alone in that thinking. If he can rename the thread, I'll go through and edit the names in my post so it doesn't look all weird.

Patriot is a cool name anyway. Never knew it got a name along the way. Blade Control is kind of a shabby name though. Someone primer that one up so we can get back on track. That one's interesting to me also if anything.

Goblins. I'm sticking to what I said on that one. I'm not having a problem with it. It's tricky of course, but Goblins always is. I just don't worry about it anymore. I'm not about to heavy board against it when the main works pretty well. I board in those two Firespouts and I'm pretty happy with that.

I just suggest playing it yourself. See if you feel like you need more. I feel like I don't, but that's me. try it yourself. For all I know half the people touting Goblins here haven't even tried this deck at all. I may have had a crappy playtest session. Who knows. The real truth is trying it out for yourself and deciding if you think you need it.

Zoo, that's a problem. That match up is abysmal. the problem is all the removal, not the creatures. I took Forge tenders out of the board since I wasn't having so much of a problem with the red as much as a problem with the removal Zoo can push out in white ie. swords/path. It's winnable, but it sucks to play against it. You're going to work for it. Bolts just get annoying without him, but he's just not worth that whole slot devoted to that.

For Zoo, you have to play like an old school vintage 5 color deck. Fetch only the basics, though you should be doing that anyway. Save Misstep for a Swords/Path as you're going to need it to keep something on the table. Fight over the Mystic that drops Batterskull, it helps a ton, though they will eventually kill it or lose. They will more than likely get a pridemage out eventually and you'll have to let it go, but by that time, you might have some breathing room. Don't counter the Nacatyl despite how much you want to. You're going to bleed, just accept it. Waste them only if you have to early. You probably want the mana yourself unless they seem to be missing drops.

Avoid playing a ton of non-basics if possible to minimize the Prices. Even if it means holding back lands. Don't bother trying to fake out the counters. They are free anyway for the most part and they are going to play into them no matter what.

The real goal should be multiple Lavamancers, Sword in play, or protect batterskull like no one's business. Basilisk Collar helps, but not as much as you would think. They have so much removal, it's rough. Pretty much all the counters will be going toward keeping a critter on the table. Spell Snare hits Pridemage almost exclusively.

Board in the Diverts! They will help so much you have no idea. There's a reason I choose them over Spell Pierce. It's a warm fuzzy feeling to have someone swords their own Kird apes. Just be sure to use your wastelands to curb the mana so they can't pay the Divert's cost.

Don't board out Magus. I know their bolts still work, but it hurts them a lot. It turns off green which is huge. If you can drop one, you protect it and get an equipment of some sort on him to get him out of bolt range. That can be game a lot of the time.

Elspeth and Jace are the usual cuts for boarding. Sucks losing Jace, but he's a little too slow for this fight.

[lorddotm]

Since this is no longer just discussing "Patriot" or whatever the fuck the pile on the OP is called, can we get the more traditional lists on the OP?

Also, don't the UW lists run Wrath and a million basics? That should be more than enough to beat up Goblins.

[Hanni]

And I hate it when people claim a favorable match-up percentage vs. Goblins without testing their aggro-control pile vs. a player who actually knows what they're doing with the deck. If I had a nickel for every time somebody misjudged their home brew's win percentage vs. Goblins I'd be fucking rich, because this match up is decidely in Goblins favor.

And yeah, MD Tinkerer and/or Hooligan is standard considering every deck playing White is playing 4x Stoneforge Mystic.

Where did I claim favorable? You're the one that said the matchup was "horridly in Goblins favor" followed by a "because this match up is decidely in Goblins favor." Albeit, there's alot of lists being thrown around in here, so for some of the lists, you may very well be right.

I hate it when people claim a matchup is favorable or unfavorable when they've never playtested with or against the deck in question.

Goblins has changed very little since 2006, and my first debut with UWb Fish was with a subpar version of it at that time, at a Dual for Duals in VA with 70+ players, where I played against 4 Goblins decks, going 3-1 overall (against Goblins), ending with a Top 9 due to bad tiebreakers. The loss was a 1-2 against a R/w Goblins list with 4 Gempalm's, 4 Fanatics, and 3 StP. UWb Fish also Top 8'd the first GP Columbus (not by me), and I remember reading somewhere that he played and beat several Goblins players to get there. The deck may have started out as a Homebrew in its initial stages, but I'd hardly call it a Homebrew 5 years later.

That was 2006-ish. Goblins no longer runs Fanatic, which is good for me, and they haven't gotten too many new cards (at least ones that would be relevant against Fish, anyway). In contrast, UWb Fish has gotten some significantly powerful upgrades which, incidentally, all happen to be amazing against Goblins.

Also, I never said Goblins lists weren't running Tinkerer or Hooligan in the MD. Most lists I've seen run a singleton that they can tutor for with Matron. You said 3 MD Tinkerer's. I haven't looked in the Goblins thread in about 3 months, or looked at any Top 8 Goblins decklists in about 3 months, but I have never seen a Goblins deck with 3 MD Tinkerer's to date. Maybe they are running that many now, as an adaptation to SFM's rising popularity, but to my knowledge, 3 MD Tinkerer is not the norm.

If you want to continue this discussion further, you can send me a PM and we can playtest the matchup, because I don't feel like engaging in an argument that I've literally beaten to death for over a year back in 2006-2007 in the UWb Fish thread. And for the record, I've never claimed a favorable preboard win % against Goblins, I've claimed that it's roughly 50/50, which is what it used to be back in 2006, after logging hundreds of games against various opponent's. You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.

[Nihil Credo]

I have ended up agreeing with the opinions brought up i.e. that the two approaches to SFM decks can't really share a thread as I was hoping they would.

I've put up a new thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-DTB-Blade-Control&p=567713#post567713) for Blade Control, even without a proper primer. You are welcome and encouraged to contribute whatever you can.

This thread from now on should stick to the "Patriot" UWR Aggro-Control versions.

[Koby]

I do agree that UW/b plays way differently than UW/r. My versions of UW/r is more controlling, whereas UW/b is more tempo (Bobs, discard etc)

Interestingly enough, both of my versions run Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. Go figure.

EDIT: As I was typing, Nihil posted. Ok substance time:

I've put together a version of Patriot that was listed inside the UW/x CB/Thopter Foundry. While I'm not a big fan of Counterbalance in the current GSZ infested metagame, I do believe the deck is important should the metagame shift back towards efficiency.

This is from memory, so forgive any grave recollections.

4 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Tropical Island

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace TMS
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Firespout
1 Enlightened Tutor

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Ring

The most important aspect of the deck I feel is the addition of Firespout maindeck. Blood Moon is included in the sideboard, as well as Ancient Grudge (with the Tropical Island providing Flashback).

I'm not entirely certain this is the best deck in the American metagame, but it has recently won a rather large tournament over in Spain.
Linky here (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6418&iddeck=46492)

[Hanni]

I have asked Nihil to change the name of my old UWb Fish thread to UWb Esperblade, since that's essentially what it is now. If he does, all variations of the UWb version are welcome to be discussed in that thread, and I will consider rewriting the age old primer on the first page when I get the time unless someone else already has one written up.

For the time being, those wanting to discuss the UWb Stoneblade versions are welcome to do so in the UWb Fish, since this thread is now specifically for the UWr versions.

[Kich867]

I'm pretty curious, when exactly do you drop Magus of the Moon? Maybe the list has changed but there didn't seem to be enough basics to actually cast jace or elspeth after he hits the table, so you can't attempt a turn 3.

It's also crazy how ideas like this happen so simultaneously haha, I had an American Tempo deck thread that evolved into a UWR aggro control discussion, stopped posting in it but kept up with the list, it's almost identical to the magus of the moon list minus that guy, I hadn't really thought of implementing him and I'm still very weary of it. Exactly 12 creatures, bunch of counters/removal, little card draw XD.

I'll take your word for him being a total boss, but it seems like you can't reliably play him until turn 5-6 so that you can play a jace or elspeth. But I suppose sometimes you just really don't need it, if you see they're knee-deep in nonbasics.

Instead of him I ran Mirran Crusader because he gets through goyf/reliquary/etc. and with a piece of gear on him they're basically on a turn 2 clock. Mirran Crusader swinging on turn 4 with a sword of fire and ice is 12 damage and 2 cards, prot to everything but white--that's what misstep is for.

Unfortunately I don't have money to really ball out on this deck with yet, so I'm operating on a budget version. It may be a little unrelated but would anyone mind helping me brainstorm up a decent budget version of this?

I can't afford force of wills or jace the mind sculptor, I also can't afford multiples of OG duals (currently only have a Taiga but hoping I can hustle a Tundra with it). I have a playset of Flooded Strand and 2 Wasteland.

I'm basically just wondering what to replace Jace and FOW's with. I'm thinking something like:

Creatures: 14
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Magus of the Moon
3x Mirran Crusader

Spells: 20
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Snare
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Counterspell

Artifacts: 3
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers: 3
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands: 20
2x Wasteland
1x Kor Haven
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
3x Plains
2x Island
2x Mountain

[SurFitOfTheVine]

I'm basically just wondering what to replace Jace and FOW's with.

Creatures: 14
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Grim Lavamancer
2x Magus of the Moon
3x Mirran Crusader

Spells: 20
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Snare
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Counterspell

Artifacts: 3
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers: 3
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Lands: 20
2x Wasteland
1x Kor Haven
4x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
1x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
3x Plains
2x Island
2x Mountain

You don't replace FOW, because it's absolutely necessary.

Well, here's how I'd build it for starters (from that list you posted):

+1 Magus, +1 Lavamancer, +1 Stp, +3 Daze, +4 FOW, +4 Aether Vial, -3 Bolt, -4 Snare, -2 Counterspell, -3 Elspeth

-1 Mountain, -1 Plains, -1 Kor Haven, -2 Wasteland, +1 Volcanic, +1 Tundra, +1 Plateau

If you're going for the aggro-control plan (which I really think is the best), you can't run Snares and Counterspells since those are Control cards. Also, Aether Vial makes this deck tricky and explosive, Magus off Vial when your opponent isn't expecting is a powerful move. Try it.

If you really want to play this without FOW, +1 Daze, +3 Spell Pierce (I guess).

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Also, against most decks in the format (where Wasteland would matter), just let them get the duals and slap the Magus in their face, no Wastelands needed.

[Octopusman]

It's a shame. I wish Hanni was interested in the UWr version.

@ Kich867: No doubt.

I had been a longtime UWr Fish player in vintage and I always wanted to make it work in Legacy. The format has come a long way and I don't just mean creep like SFM.

@ SurFitOfTheVine: I agree about the wastelands.

I had a build where I ran wasteland and stifle. It's neat in the meta again however, at this time we're trying Magus of the Moon. We want to advance our game with land drops and we want to feel we have answers for their plays anyway until we drop a game winning Magus or Jace.
Wasteland can win games on it's own so it's always hard to argue the other side which is, answer what they play anyway and make better plays than them.

A 1,2,3 of SFM, Magus, Jace - along with counters and removal is pretty serious.

I have a lot of experience with Magus' power being a Dragon Stompy player as well.

I've thought long and hard about Jace's casting cost in a deck with Magus and white. This is helps in the decision to cut wastes as well. If they get basics, wastes are no good. If they get nonbasics, we drop Magus. Post board, we still have stable mana and take out Magus against folk/goblins/MUC/

Taking vulnerability to nonbasic hate into consideration, I think I have a manabase that could conceivably pull off T3 Magus, T4 Jace. But to be honest, Magus will win the game or if they answer him you drop Jace and then win. It's not the end of the world to be holding a Jace because of this if you can't get UU.


I love that this thread is hot right now but I will spare you the "hey here's my pile" for now. I'm going to be testing a few different lists and I will post lists when I feel they will benefit people interested in this deck.

Cheers.

[Kich867]

You don't replace FOW, because it's absolutely necessary.

Well, here's how I'd build it for starters (from that list you posted):

+1 Magus, +1 Lavamancer, +1 Stp, +3 Daze, +4 FOW, +4 Aether Vial, -3 Bolt, -4 Snare, -2 Counterspell, -3 Elspeth

-1 Mountain, -1 Plains, -1 Kor Haven, -2 Wasteland, +1 Volcanic, +1 Tundra, +1 Plateau

If you're going for the aggro-control plan (which I really think is the best), you can't run Snares and Counterspells since those are Control cards. Also, Aether Vial makes this deck tricky and explosive, Magus off Vial when your opponent isn't expecting is a powerful move. Try it.

If you really want to play this without FOW, +1 Daze, +3 Spell Pierce (I guess).

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Also, against most decks in the format (where Wasteland would matter), just let them get the duals and slap the Magus in their face, no Wastelands needed.

I explained in my post that that list was intended to be budget--I can't currently afford FOW's and Jace so the question was: "Given that I can't afford FOW or Jace, what would a budget version of this deck look like?". I do happen to have a playset of vials though.

[Draener]

A bigger obstacle than Jace or FOW to building this deck on a budget is the manabase. You cannot realistically expect to cast Vendillion clique, Mirran Crusader, and grim lavamancer with only one tundra/ volcanic and twenty lands. I'm afraid you would probably be much better off going for a strict u/w version.

[bradstone]

So it seems like basically none of these UWr lists have a raw CA engine. What exactly are peoples reasons for not running standstill / ancestral visions in this deck? Standstill seems like it could be a bomb with an active Grim Lavamancer on the board and Ancestral Vision on T1 gives you a serious late game boost.

I didn't get to play Legacy last weekend because of the pre release but the week before that I ran a build with Ancestral Visions and finished 4-1. I really loved Ancestral Visions when I got it in the opening 7 but now seeing all these lists I'm debating cutting it for more room in the deck, which is something I've been debating from the start. Yet whenever I take it out, I end up wanting to put Divining Tops or Ponders in the slot instead ...

[Tinefol]

Just keep running Vision (I do so). Standstill wouldn't work with the manabase, top is a mana sink and Ponder just doesn't give you any CA whatsoever.

[dahcmai]

Latest changes I have made to mine. This is a tester so I don't recommend it yet, but you might find the idea of it interesting. It also might be a little too far of left field.


+1 Magus, +1 plains, -4 Wasteland, +1 Island, -1 Tundra, +3 Ghost Quarter

Ghost Quarter? What? Ok, ok, hear me out.

I'm liking the Magus more and more so I wanted to support him a little better hence the extra basics.

Ghost Quarter serves a few purposes.

1. It makes people use a different Basic land than they fetch up color screwing them out when the Magus hits.

2. No one wastelands you when you have a Ghost Quarter untapped since you basically just do the crop rotation trick if they try.

3. You can fix your own mana as a pseudo-fetchland if you need to in a pinch. Comes in handy for that double white.

4. It kills stupid lands like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Academy Ruins, Dark Depths, opposing Karakas, and Glacial Chasm just fine which was the only reason I had wastelands in the first place. I didn't like having no answer to those despite the fact the deck has no real use for Wastes.

We shall see if it's worth it. I'm kind of liking this idea so far, but I needed to have another Magus to make it worth it.


As for playing Magus, you'll notice when playing the deck you almost never dump him turn 3. It's really rare you want to. There's a few cases in which you do, but for the most part Stoneforge is taking up turns 2-3 or you're holding off some army and the control decks you always tend to dump him turn 4 when he's backed up by a Snare. By that time, you already did these fetches. Turn 1 Island or Volcanic (if Lavamancer is played), Turn 2 Plains, turn 3 Volcanic or island. Turn 4 can now be the last plains/island or a Ghost quarter into it depending on which planeswalker is in hand. I like that idea since there's not much reason to change up the order of getting those lands out and the elspeth point is a valid one. I'm still highly considering cutting her in favor of another Jace though. Aggro just has a heck of a time with her and Jace doesn't defend as well.

Then again, I am starting to not like the look of the three of's. As a really good player once told me, if the card isn't good enough to be playing 4, it shouldn't be in the deck. I don't mind 2 of curveballs, but I tend to hate three ofs.

[Octopusman]

An aside about 3 ofs:

I already play a few conditional counters like snare or pierce.
4 Mental Misstep has proven to be too many from my personal experiences.

I tend to agree with the statement about 4 ofs. You want your deck to be as consistent and powerful as it can be. But in MM's case, I've found 3 to be the right number. Maybe I'll change my mind... but so far I am extremely happy with MM @ 3.

[Michael Keller]

Latest changes I have made to mine. This is a tester so I don't recommend it yet, but you might find the idea of it interesting. It also might be a little too far of left field.


+1 Magus, +1 plains, -4 Wasteland, +1 Island, -1 Tundra, +3 Ghost Quarter

Ghost Quarter? What? Ok, ok, hear me out.

I'm liking the Magus more and more so I wanted to support him a little better hence the extra basics.

Ghost Quarter serves a few purposes.

1. It makes people use a different Basic land than they fetch up color screwing them out when the Magus hits.

2. No one wastelands you when you have a Ghost Quarter untapped since you basically just do the crop rotation trick if they try.

3. You can fix your own mana as a pseudo-fetchland if you need to in a pinch. Comes in handy for that double white.

4. It kills stupid lands like Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, Academy Ruins, Dark Depths, opposing Karakas, and Glacial Chasm just fine which was the only reason I had wastelands in the first place. I didn't like having no answer to those despite the fact the deck has no real use for Wastes.

We shall see if it's worth it. I'm kind of liking this idea so far, but I needed to have another Magus to make it worth it.


As for playing Magus, you'll notice when playing the deck you almost never dump him turn 3. It's really rare you want to. There's a few cases in which you do, but for the most part Stoneforge is taking up turns 2-3 or you're holding off some army and the control decks you always tend to dump him turn 4 when he's backed up by a Snare. By that time, you already did these fetches. Turn 1 Island or Volcanic (if Lavamancer is played), Turn 2 Plains, turn 3 Volcanic or island. Turn 4 can now be the last plains/island or a Ghost quarter into it depending on which planeswalker is in hand. I like that idea since there's not much reason to change up the order of getting those lands out and the elspeth point is a valid one. I'm still highly considering cutting her in favor of another Jace though. Aggro just has a heck of a time with her and Jace doesn't defend as well.

Then again, I am starting to not like the look of the three of's. As a really good player once told me, if the card isn't good enough to be playing 4, it shouldn't be in the deck. I don't mind 2 of curveballs, but I tend to hate three ofs.

No. Just...no.

You're trying to rationalizing using a functionally weaker approach over an already proven optimal means of disruption. Wasteland serves a critical purpose in dismantling an opponent's resources early so you can win the war of attrition. Stoneforge Mystic's ability uses one colorless mana to activate, so it's not like you're losing or gaining anything outside of a cute way to tutor for a basic in response to your opponent's Wasteland. Not only is that situational, it forces you to sit on a land - untapped early - and two-for-one yourself in the process.

Ghost Quarter serves a fundamentally different purpose than Wasteland; no one is disputing that. But you shouldn't be concerning yourself with protecting your own lands as much as you should be destroying your opponents' with no inherent drawback. The swing in the effectiveness to what you're trying to accomplish with Ghost Quarter as opposed to Wasteland is not worth the trade.

Magus may be a powerful creature, but it is a creature you build an entire deck around (trust me on that one). Magus is a nice drop when you want to catch an opponent with their pants down, but the fact is trying to support a mana base using cards with multiple sources of mana in their cost (i.e. Counterspell, Mirran Crusader, etc.) will only force you to completely eradicate the current configuration and start from scratch.

Ghost Quarter should not take the slot of Wasteland in this archetype; no how and no way.

[dahcmai]

Eh, I ended up hating it anyway. It always felt weak. It was worth a shot though. Never hurts to try new things. I didn't really get many games in, but I just didn't like the feel of it and I tend to trust my instincts about things like that.

Same went for the tester of a singleton Tower of the Magistrate. I'd just rather have 4 Wastes.

[dahcmai]

Another interesting take on the build. I kind of like this idea, though it makes the deck better against other control decks, I'm not sure how I like it against aggro and the lack of Lavamancers means less equipment targets.

Still, 1st with 51 players isn't too shabby.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6493&iddeck=47028


I might have to try this idea out and see how it plays.

[Tinefol]

I'd have to confess that that Pfire tech works, much to my disbelief. It even enables S/B Ancient grudges!

[TkDodo]

What do you guys think about the inclusion of Trinket Mage? I'm currently testing it, and I like it a lot, because a) it's a beater which can hold blades and b) it can grab utility (I have Engineered Explosives, which helps a lot against Zoo and Aggro in general and Sensei's Divining Top, which is good for obvious reasons. It also helps me finding Needles and GY hate from the SB better.
Further, I think for a deck without a real draw engine except for Jace (no Visions or Standstill), it's good to at least have a couple of cards which replace themselves, and therefore generate some card advantage and quality. SFM is obviously such a card, Lavamancer does it by repeatedly eating creatues. Clique can fall into that category too if you choose yourself, and I think Trinket Mage does a similar thing.

[dahcmai]

I'm currently trying out a couple of Trinket Mages also, though for a different reason. I added a single Basilisk Collar to the board to attach to Lavamancers so I don't have to swords Knights and goyfs all day that come out of maverick. That deck is good at overpowering your creature kill so it works as a solution to that quite well. Took a hint from standard again no less. So far they are working quite well, though it sure is making me run a lot of two of's. I think they might stay since I really haven't liked Standstill or Ancestral Visions much in this deck. They just seem meh even in the straight UW version.

[TkDodo]

I've been taking my Uwr Stoneblade list to back2back local legacy tournaments (32 resp. 36 people).
I did quite well, going 4-1 (loosing only to a friend of mine playing NO RUG) and 3-0-2.

R1: 2-0 vs Slivers
R2: 2-0 vs Reanimator
R3: 0-2 vs NO RUG
R4: 2-0 vs Team America
R5: 2-0 vs MonoR Goblins

R1: 2-0 vs ANT
R2: 2-1 vs RG Goblins
R3: 2-1 vs A standard ramp deck (embarrassing)
R4: 1-1 vs UB Faeries
R5: 1-1 vs Uw Stoneblade

Here's the list:


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

1 Ponder

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins


I opted against Magus of the Moon because of too many Mono-coloured decks in the meta. In the games I played he would have probably only be very good against Team America, which I don't think is a bad MU anyway.

The Trinket Mage Package was cute, but I wanted to play a 3rd Clique so much that I cut it for the second tournament. I had one more Clique in the side and sided it in every single game. So for the second tournament, I went:

-1 Trinket Mage
-1 SD.Top
-1 Academy Ruins

+1 Vendillion Clique
+1 Ponder
+1 Plateau

The random EE stayed in there as a maindeck sweeper but was kind of meh. My best shot was a 2-1 against goblins in the game I lost anyway. It helped removing one Shackles in R4 G1 though.

In R4 and R5 of the second tournament, I also noticed that the longer the game goes against other blue based control decks, the less likely I was to win it. Actually, both draws came at a point were I was very likely to loose game 3. The lack of card-drawing might be the primary reason for that (with no real out against opposing Visions for example). So my list probably needs more Jace.

I also tried Orim's Thunder in the board, since we normally have a lot of Affinity decks here in our meta (on top of 16 SFM in the top 4). It has been underwhelming to me so far, but I will probably keep on testing it. At 4 mana, it's probably too expensive to 2-1 your opponent (especially if he can bounce the Batterskull, too). So, I'm still lacking a good way of dealing with opponents SFM, apart from snaring or cliquing them. Any suggestions?

[maurobad2k4]

So, I'm still lacking a good way of dealing with opponents SFM, apart from snaring or cliquing them. Any suggestions?

Manriki-Gusari seems like a fine option.

[Maveric78f]

I think that you have to get over the fact that SFM is a good card that can win games if not responded. Because, when I see your list, I can see a lot of answers to that damn little piece of ... Grim gets rid of SFM, wannabe-equipped creatures, Clique gets rid of the SFM or the equipment in resp to SFM activation, you play SFM yourself so that you can also get the nuts off SFM, you play spell snare, counterspell, FoW, STP, ...

Almost not a single card in your deck that is not a response to the SFM game plan. In your place I would not be too much focused on it. However, if you're really looking for answers, Manriki-Gusari is indeed a good option, Basilisk Collar looks more versatile though (equipped to Grim Lavamancer). You can also tutor it with Mage.

[Malakai]

Thoughts on more beaters? Without going to a fourth color, I often feel like all I want are more guys to beat down with besides V. Clique and Stoneforge. Magus of the Moon is an okay card, but I kind of want something a little more aggro. Anyone have any ideas? The best I could come up with was Serendib Efreet.

[Ryuu!]

I've been playing with Elspeth, knight errant for some more efficience beating down the opponents, and it's also a great defensive card, that goes along perfectly with mr. Mind Sculptor. There are some problems with the curve, you want to play at least 3 Jace, so I usually only play 1 Elspeth.

Other guy worth taking a look is Mirran Crusader, but Batterskull has been enough for me when the agresion is needed.

[dahcmai]

For those who are curious, this is the final build for me. Unless I change up things for the meta, I don't change a thing anymore. I'm pretty happy with the numbers and choices now. There's not much I fear playing against now. It's gotten way too popular for my taste so I think I'll start working on my next project. It'll always be my baby though.

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Academy ruins
1 Tolaria west
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland


Sideboard:
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Take Possession
1 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
2 Pyroblast
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wrath of God
1 Sword of Body and Mind

[Malakai]

Six colorless lands...no basic mountain...two more on-color nonbasics...

[TkDodo]

So what do you guys think about Snapcaster Mage in Patriot?
For reference:

Snapcaster Mage
1u
Creature - Human Wizard
Flash
When Snapcaster Mage enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
2/1

I think it fits perfectly in a Patriot shell, and I though about cutting Lavamancers and adding Bolts, Fire//Ice and this guy.

Something like:


4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
1 Counterspell

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland


With so many good and cheap instants to flashback, the mage seems to be really good. Taking back bolts and swords should be as good as lavamancer (except maybe against fish), and taking back brainstorms or counters all while providing a beater to carry swords sounds promising.

Thoughts?

[Tinefol]

My take on the deck won me byes for the GP:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6797&iddeck=49338

I'm probably trying Snapcaster Mages when they come out. But if you're cutting Mancers, you're better dropping the red altogether.

[puppektion]

My take on the deck won me byes for the GP:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6797&iddeck=49338

I'm probably trying Snapcaster Mages when they come out. But if you're cutting Mancers, you're better dropping the red altogether.

Yeah, 'cause *that's* helpful:

http://i56.tinypic.com/4lt1xi.jpg

I've been running an odd build for a while. It's been performing pretty well, but it's not even remotely "normal" compared to anything else here. I guess when I was putting it together, I was trying to bastardize tempo thresh, stoneblade and, to a lesser extent, dragon stompy. I ended up with this monstrosity:

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Vengeant

I guess the idea I had when putting this together was to prey on decks with frail manabases. MD Magus, combined with Stifle, can lock so many decks out. Either on their own also can hurt many decks.

I dunno... I mean, I'll answer any questions regarding the list, performances, etc.. I'm just too out of it to continue typing right now, but don't want this shit to sit on my browser again.

[Octopusman]

Yeah, 'cause *that's* helpful:

http://i56.tinypic.com/4lt1xi.jpg

I've been running an odd build for a while. It's been performing pretty well, but it's not even remotely "normal" compared to anything else here. I guess when I was putting it together, I was trying to bastardize tempo thresh, stoneblade and, to a lesser extent, dragon stompy. I ended up with this monstrosity:

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Vengeant

I guess the idea I had when putting this together was to prey on decks with frail manabases. MD Magus, combined with Stifle, can lock so many decks out. Either on their own also can hurt many decks.

I dunno... I mean, I'll answer any questions regarding the list, performances, etc.. I'm just too out of it to continue typing right now, but don't want this shit to sit on my browser again.

Some big differences but your list kind of looks like mine. I have been having the time of my life with the following:

Lands:

Tundra 4
Volcanic Island 4
Plateau 2
Island 3
Scanlding Tarn 4
Flooded Strand 4
Plains 1

Spells:

Grim Lavamancer 4
Stoneforge Mystic 4
Magus of the Moon 4
Brainstorm 4
Mental Misstep 4
Force of Will 4
Stifle 4
Swords to Plowshares 4
Jace, The Mind Sculptor 4
Sword of Fire and Ice 1
Sword of Body and Mind 1

Sideboard:

Red Elemental Blast 2
Phantasmal Image 2
Tormod's Crypt 3
Ethersworn Canonist 2
Rite of Replication 4
Pyroblast 2

I will definitely be trying Snapcaster Mage although, unfortunately, I feel that he's best exploited in a deck with vial.

It'll be a 2 of in my list if I can squeeze it in. Snapcaster Mage getting blasts is too amazing.

I just wish I had a better out against dredge and progenitus.

[puppektion]

First thoughts:

Why no Batterskull?

Rite of Replication? Are you effing serious? Wouldn't Phyrexian Metamorph be much better suited, for being: a) less expensive to cast, b) less colour restrictive (with Magus), c) able to target problem creatures like Progenitus and Emrakul, and d) able to copy artifacts (I hear copying batterskull is good). And you've already got 2 Phantasmal Images. Ease it back.

[TkDodo]

I just wish I had a better out against dredge and progenitus.

If you do play Snapcaster Mage, try Surgical Extractions in the side. They are fantastic against Aggro Loam (not that big of an issue since you have moons i guess, but very tough for traditional BladeControl decks), Reanimator, and of course, Dregde. Extracting their Therapies, then snap-casting and extracting their Bridges and I guess they will not be able to beat a Batterskull any more most of the time. With three in the side and 2 Mages maindeck, you should find them early enough.

As for Progenitus, if it is really that much of an issue, Phyrexian Metamorph is way better than Rite of Replication. However, against NORug, I prefer to just side in a couple of Spell Pierces and try to win the Natural Order fight by killing the small dudes first and having enough spells which can counter a 4 mana sorcery (and a certain 4 mana Planeswalker, and GSZ).

[dahcmai]

You can try Curfew also. It's a nice out to Projo and let's you reuse Cliques and Stoneforges or if you're in the right position save a critter from death and have the added benefit of setting them back. Most of those No decks have a heck of a time putting the Projo back with brainstorm then N Ordering again.

[Octopusman]

Curfew might make it's way into the board. Could be doubly fun with Snapcaster.

I wrote rite of replication instead of shattering spree in the board. Sorry about that.

To be honest, I have played with Batterskull a lot and I have had more success with this sword set up. My issue with Batterskull at its core is there being too much emphasis on cheating it into play. Also, I don't always have Stoneforge Mystic and I'd like to cheaply equip a sword to give me what equals a threat that is much more substantial (in my testing) than Batterskull.

Once you start connecting with either sword in a deck like this, the victory isn't far behind. They just have been more versatile/game ending from my experience.

[ivanpei]

Patriot is my preferred colour combination for my stoneblade lists. My change from the normal lists is that I don't play visions. I feel it's a terrible topdeck and comes down too slow (especially on the draw) to matter. It is only good when in your opening hand and when you are on the play. Usually, visions suspends one critical turn too late. Opponents aren't dumb, they'll go for the jace/NO/Hivemind the turn before visions resolves. Also I like wasteland/ daze in this deck. Though you want to make land drops, the option to screw an opponent is too good. Daze is also just a really good all around card. I'm playing this list:

4 SFM
3 Clique
3 Grim

1 Sobm/Soff
1 Batterskull
4 Jace TMS
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stp
1 Lightning bolt (I like the 5th removal spell)
4 Force of Will
4 Misstep
3 Daze

3 Tundra
3 Volc
4 Strand
4 Tarn
2 Delta
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

I think batterskull is really important to this deck. Cant think of any reason not to run it. I feel that my list has a better curve with more 1 drops, compared to the others here. I like quicker cards like ponder, bolt, daze, more fetches and wastelands because they fill up the yard quickly. Also, I think keeping mana open for spell snare, sprite or cspell is inefficient in terms of tempo.

Why has everyone cut ponder? The card is still a very good hand fixer and 2 is a nice number. I'm also not a snapcaster fan. There just arent enough cards to cut for it to be slotted in. I'd rather have cliques/grims anyday. My concept of patriot is to stick your bombs quickly, and protect them while running tons of free disruption and cheap removal.

[TkDodo]

I also find Visions somewhat clunky in Patriot, and my last change was also cutting them.

I started with 2 ponders, then 1 and finally went down to zero. This is not because I think Ponder is bad or shouldn't be played in this deck - it's just that I prefer a more controlish version. I like having mana open for Spell Snare (hence I play 3 of them) and even for good old Counterspell. Ponder is totally fine in a list with Dazes, because you will tap out more frequently.

However, I think you are trying to explain that you are running Patriot more like a tempo deck, which I definitely do not. If it works for you, great. But Patriot does not have the disruption and beater quality that Team America has to offer. Even Esper America plays a lot less like a tempo deck, just because SFM is a lot slower/mana intensive than Goyf.

If you say "You like the 5th removal spell", I can't see how you can not like Snapcaster Mage. It's exactly this - additional removal past the 4 Swords (amongst others). If you have bolts instead of Lavamancers, even better. Bolt actually kills a creature on turn 1 reliably, and Bolt - SnapMage - Bolt is a lot better to tough matchups (like zoo) than Lavamancer. And seriously - we beat fish without Lavamancer anyway ;) If you try the Mage you can see how good it is!

[ivanpei]

I agree snapcaster is a great card, I'll try to slot in a few. Most probably cut a bolt and a ponder for 2 to start. I don't really play like a tempo deck, this deck isn't good at that, I just prefer tapping out everyturn. Also, wastelands are IMO just a really good card. I find that when I playdecks with wasteland, I get flooded less often as I can chuck wastelands at opponents. I also randomly win games by screwing a land light opponent. That's probably why a control deck like bug-still plays wastelands too. Daze is just really flexible for me and gels with my tapout plan. I'm a bit pissed tiago's prerelease price is bonkers. I foiled out the rest of the non-land cards in this deck and it would be a bitch to get foil snapcasters. It's a freaking rare, no mythic, and it wont be a 4-off everywhere. I'm pretty sure the price will cool after release. $10 for non foil and $25 for foil seems reasonable.

[TkDodo]

Have you noticed the synergy Snapcaster Mage has with Lightning Bolt in comparison to the anti-synergy with Grim Lavamancer?

[ivanpei]

Yes I have. Grims are insanely poweful though. Bolts are a 1 for 1. Grims can shut down an entire merfolk deck. Grims can also shut down the entire stoneblade creature base by providing 2-3 strategic shocks on sfm/clique/sprite. Grim is a bomb and one of two reasons to splash red (the other being reb). If you plan on playing all 4 snappies, then you'd obviously prefer bolts. However 4 seems like too many snappies IMO.

[TkDodo]

I play 3 Tiagos and therefore switched to Bolts over Grims and actually never looked back. The fact that you want to kill a creature on the spot and not next turn can be very important (or how do you kill a mana dude with Grim if your opponent goes first?). With Grim I also had the issue that I almost never wanted to go Turn 1 fetch into Volcanic and play Grim, as, like I said, I like to keep mana open to have more options (be it a desperation brainstorm to find a counter, or just waiting with fetching until you know if you need basics or not [apart from Spell Snare etc.]). And even if you do, you have no reliable source of removal on Turn 2, because you won't always have fetchland turn 1 and turn 2. Or you just "waste" a brainstorm to get Grim online, which is very bad I guess. Of course, I can see it in you shell with dazes and like you said, you tap out more often than me ;)

And, believe me, with 4 swords, 3-4 bolts and 3 Snapcaster Mage, you have so much removal (plus the surprise blocking Mage) that Merfolk will think they are a creature-less deck ;)

Against most decks, I think we are fine 1-for-1-ing a ton with Misstep, Snare, Swords, Bolt until we start 2-for-1 ing them with SFM, Snapcaster Mage or x-for-1 them with Jace.

Of course, Grim [I]is better than all against Merfolk (You can't beat the nuts), but that's just about it. Against StoneBlade, I actually prefer snaring opposing SFMs to eating them, because sooner or later, that Batterskull will come down no matter what. But all I'm saying is that Snapcaster Mage might not work as good as expected if you play Grim and no bolts in comparison to the other way around.

[ivanpei]

True, there are multiple ways to build a patriot deck now that snappies are around. How many snappies? How many bolts? To Grim or not to grim? Testing will tell though. My build obviously has alot of cheap early spells + a ton of fetches. I built it to play grim optimally. May have to test the tiago build and see how they compare. Cheers.

[dahcmai]

Well, I've been playing around with some proxied up Snaps and I have to admit, I love this guy. I ended up pulling the Lavamancers (I had 3) for Bolts and I like it. Sure, Lavamancer is the shit against some decks, but I need to test against a really good merfolk player to make sure I like snaps enough to completely kick Lavamancer out.

Snaps are really amazing in the mirror when they don't have them. He definitely gives you a heck of an edge there and that says something by itself. Though I am half tempted to just use Paths and kick red aside from the REBs in the board. Pathing and Swordsing everything is kind of fun in a way. I kept thinking when I played a bolt trying to imagine it being a Path and it was pretty decent, though Bolts give reach which is really nice so I'll probably stay in red just for that. It's a debatable thing.

Flashing back Missteps obviously is just mean. Hitting Bstorm a couple of times saved my butt. I even hit Force hard casted from the grave just once. Nice to know you can do it. I don't have Dazes or Snares, but I kind of want them now. Especially Snares, but I am biased against Daze anyway. I just never liked the card though I end up playing it a lot.

Anyway, Snaps are going to change up things a lot.

[ivanpei]

I think we are facing an either/or situation with snappy and grim here. They both don't combo well together. Also, you don't need that many bodies IMO. If you already have plenty of bodies to carry a sword, an additional 2/1 is no big deal. If we cut grims, is it really worth splashing red? I feel that to fully utilize snapcaster, we will have to switch to full on control. Here's my list change:

-3 grims, -3 daze, -2 ponder, + 3 snappy, +2 snare, + 2 counterspell, + 1 land

At this point I only have red for 1 md bolt and sb Rebs. I might as well go uw and have access to factories too.

I can see that this change will improve the stoneblade mirror, but will hurt the aggro/no rug matchups. We shouldn't kid ourselves, snapcaster isn't exactly a very fast card. It's not the most efficient spell against aggro decks IMO. Against no rug, if you are facing down a NO on turn 3/4, the incremental advantage snappy gives you is irrelevant. In these situations, I'd prefer having an active grim zapping mana dudes and goblin guides. Also, I've found that grim is a really cheap/effective sword bearer since he only costs 1 mana. Makes that opening hand equipment much better.

Snappy gives mid/late game gas. I think this is the replacement for visions/standstills that stoneblade players have been looking for. Grim on the other hand is a flexible anti aggro card which does a totally different job. Since I'm playing patriot to shit on folk/aggro, I'll stick to grims. If I go into a heavy control environment, I'll switch to pure uw stoneblade control with snappies.

[TkDodo]

Well, I've been playing around with some proxied up Snaps and I have to admit, I love this guy. I ended up pulling the Lavamancers (I had 3) for Bolts and I like it.

This is exactly the way I have been going with my list, and I also love it. The discussion came up to why not drop red completely and just go with additional path to exiles, but I think this is wrong in many ways. Exiling creatures and all is great, but bolt has some significant advantages, since he can kill planeswalkers (A blue one for 2UU comes to my mind) and, in fact, kill Opponents, too. Also, Snapcaster Mage with redblasts from the side are way too good to pass up on. Against creatureless decks, I think 4 dead cards are more than enough.



I can see that this change will improve the stoneblade mirror, but will hurt the aggro/no rug matchups.


This depends on what you define with "aggro".
Against Merfolk, Lavamancer is better, but not by much. I haven't had any problems beating Merfolk with a 3 Snapcaster Mage, 3 Lightning Bolt, 4 Swords (+3 REB from the side) build.
Against Zoo, Bolt is a lot better. Lavamancer doesn't do anything against 3/3s and 2/3s.
Against Maverick, I haven't tested enough, but I've heard Lavamancer is really good there. Against NO Rug, I haven't found Lavamancer overwhelming. They have a lot of burn and counters to get rid of him, and you can't kill a mana dude before he gets active if they go first.

I've played with Lavamancer a lot, but right now, I'm not missing him. I went to a tourney yesterday and was really disappointed that I couldn't play Snapcaster Mage :( Topdecking Lavamancer and not being able to outright kill a guy lost me a game twice (To be fair, he won me a game on his own, too ;).