PDA

View Full Version : [DTB] Blade Control



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

Nihil Credo
07-11-2011, 06:39 PM
PRIMER
by IsThisACatInAHat?

Overview:

U/W Mystic Control (also Stoneblade or Blade Control) is a blue/white aggro-control deck built around Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The deck is a direct port of Standard post-New Phyrexia Caw-Blade, which led to the June 2011 banning of both aforementioned cards. Until the bans, Standard Caw-Blade was (according to some sources (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/22024_Innovations_The_SCG_Invitational.html)) by percentage the most dominant deck in Magic tournament history. The Legacy port preserves the same engine but adds many of the best blue (and some white) cards ever printed.

History:

U/W Mystic Control’s debut performance was at Grand Prix Providence 2011, where Team Fireball’s Owen Turtenwald piloted it to an undefeated day 1 and a 5th place overall finish. In the months following, U/W Mystic Control exploded in popularity and success, taking multiple top 8/ top 16 spots at StarCityGames Legacy events in the US and other high-profile tournaments around the world.

Decklists:

Owen Turtenwald, 5th place GP Providence:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God

Card Choices:

As before, Legacy U/W Mystic Control is a direct port of Standard Caw. They both begin with the same basic engine:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

3-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

These 8-9 cards give the deck its identity. Prior to New Phyrexia, Stoneforge Mystic was a mid-level value creature seen in various Bant and G/x aggro decks and Jace was considered too slow as more than a two-of, even in Standstill-based control decks. New Phyrexia changed all that in two major ways.

First, the printing of Batterskull gave Mystic a target that needed no extra help once it hit play. It provided a large body, reusability and functioned equally well as both an attacker and defender due to Vigilance and Lifelink. Prior to Batterskull, the consensus best SFM targets were Umezawa’s Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice. Jitte, while powerful, had the problem of needing other creatures for support lest the Mystic carrying it die in combat (as it would, being a ½) and then not having anyone else to pick it up. Sword of Fire and Ice, being more expensive to play naturally, relied more heavily on SFM to cheat it into play and equip and then had a less impressive effect than Jitte anyway. Neither card made it worth running Mystics but no other creatures for.

The second major change from New Phyrexia was arguably one of the biggest turning points in recent Legacy history. The hype surrounding Mental Misstep was feverish, hyperbolic and if anything, probably understated. The card changed the way blue decks in Legacy could play, not just because it was the first playable free counterspell since Daze, but because it gave blue decks a 1-for-1 answer to backbreaking turn 1 plays on the draw. Aether Vial and Wild Nacatl, bogeymen of slow U/x control decks, were no longer only answerable by the miserable 1-for-2-off-the-bat trade of Force of Will. This is neither the time nor place, so I won’t go into any further detail, but the point is that Mental Misstep slowed the format down enough so that Jace, The Mind Sculptor became Legacy’s premier blue win condition.

Together, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor forms the backbone of one of Legacy’s top decks. However, two cards do not make a Legacy deck by themselves. Thankfully, blue just happens to be the best support color in the format (and really, the best primary color too):

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
2-4 Spell Snare

The standard blue package of counterspells and card filtering, the above 14-16 cards are the basis for disruptive blue decks in Legacy. To quote Luis Scott-Vargas (recognized as one of the best professional Magic players in history):

“All these cards seem like locks in any blue-based deck that has any interest in disrupting the opponent (Merfolk is a whole other subject). All these spells cost 0 or 1 mana, and they all allow you to interact meaningfully with the opposition at any stage in the game. Force and Brainstorm also allow you to filter dead cards very effectively, and it’s no surprise that 90% of my Legacy decklists start with 4 of each.”

These cards are essentially the reason Mystic and Jace are so powerful; when you’ve got the best protection and card selection spells in the format to keep your win conditions safe and ensure you’ve always got gas, it’s difficult to lose. Still, there’s more to a deck than its engine, protection and card selection. Naturally, you’ll need mana to cast all your spells:

3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

The two-color manabase offers U/W Mystic Control several advantages over its competitors, the most important of which is resilience. By limiting itself to just two colors, the deck can afford to play four (!) basic lands to combat opposing Wastelands. As well, since the color requirements are fairly lax (W on turns 2 and 3 and UU on turn 4), the deck can also afford to play two full sets of utility lands, in this case Mishra’s Factory and Wasteland. These utility lands allow the deck to consistently make its land drops each turn and resolve its powerful spells on time, then get aggressive with mana denial and additional equipment carriers/ blockers to protect Jace.

The “industry standard” number of lands for this deck is 24, but professional brewmaster Gerry Thompson has been known to go as low as 22 (link here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21990_One_Step_Ahead_Building_The_Best_Ancestral_Vision_Deck.html), may still be Premium) by cutting Wasteland. No matter how many you choose to run, the most important takeaway from this section is that U/W’s primary advantage over other UW(x) Mystic/ Jace decks is its manabase. Adding colors (typically Red or Black) or cutting basics detract from this strength significantly. Before doing either, be sure the cards you add are worth it.

Lastly, the maindeck could never be complete without its utility spells- removal, card draw, additional disruption or equipment, etc:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision/ Standstill
1+ Vendilion Clique
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Body & Mind/ other

Even in a post-Mental Misstep world, Swords to Plowshares reigns supreme as the #1 removal spell ever printed. One mana, instant speed, unconditional spot removal with almost no downside isn’t available from any other card or color. Even Path to Exile, a plausible imitator, is an extremely distant second (or third, now that Dismember exists). Since you’re already in white for Stoneforge Mystic, Swords to Plowshares is a natural fit for the deck’s removal slot.

The final slots are given to Ancestral Vision or Standstill (never both, always all one or the other) to provide insurmountable card advantage alongside Mystic and Jace. The correct choice depends entirely on anticipated metagame; Vision is a more powerful option in environments dominated by Aether Vial or slow U/x control decks, while Standstill is stronger in environments dominated by G/x midrange or combo decks. For the moment, Vision is the more commonly occurring card in top 8/ top 16 lists, probably because the prevalence of Jace has forced G/x midrange down and the prevalence of Misstep has forced combo down.

In addition to its known-quantity cards, U/W Mystic Control has a handful of flex slots (2-6, depending on land, Snare and Jace counts). Most players fill these slots with a singleton Crucible of Worlds to threaten Wasteland and Mishra’s Factory recursion, an additional equipment to tutor for with multiple Stoneforge Mystics and some number of Vendilion Cliques for evasive beats and additional disruption. Though they’re technically “flex” slots, the list of cards that actually fit into them is short. Most of the best blue and white spells are already included, so outside of rogue metagame choices or just genuinely suboptimal cards, there isn’t much left.

Sideboard:

Rather than list potential sideboard cards and try to explain their function, I want to take a top-down approach exploring U/W’s weaknesses and what it needs from its sideboard in order to cover them:

U/W Mystic Control typically runs between 10 and 12 counterspells, but only 4 spot removal spells. The exact numbers for this vary since some players run Daze or Path to Exile in the flex slots, but for the most part, the ratio is about 3:1. Jace can pick up some of the slack with his Unsummon ability, but that’s only a temporary solution and not something you ideally want to be doing every turn unless you’ve got a lot of power on the board to end the game quickly. As such, the deck can be soft to creatures. Mystic takes a turn to play and another turn to “untap” (lose summoning sickness) before Batterskull comes online. In that time, most creature-heavy decks will have already established a formidable board presence. Unless you have the exact right combination of counterspells (and even if you do), decks like Zoo, Maverick and Goblins can overwhelm U/W before it has the chance to stabilize.

As well, each of the above decks can deal with a resolved Batterskull (or the Mystic) relatively easily. Half of the Zoo deck is an answer to Mystic or Batterskull, often for cheaper than the cost of either. Maverick’s huge creatures and utility removal can blow right past them, sometimes without even losing cards in the exchange. Goblins is built to overrun blue decks exactly like U/W with swarms of creatures, giant Piledrivers and an insane card advantage engine. I’ll go more in-depth when I do matchup analysis, but for now it’s enough to know that multiple resolved creatures can pose a huge problem. In order to combat this, the deck can board out its slower or CA-negative cards for cheap spot removal, sweepers and additional utility cards. From Owen’s GP list:

1 Pithing Needle (naming Qasali Pridemage vs. Zoo/ Maverick, Aether Vial vs. Goblins)
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God

Some of the pros that have played with U/W Mystic Control such as Patrick Chapin mention (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21976_Innovations_Is_The_Best_Creature_In_Magic_White.html) adding more copies of Wrath of God for its help in the creature matchups. If your metagame has lots of Zoo, Maverick or Goblins, this is good advice to follow.

A second major weakness of the deck is the conditionality of its counterspells. With the exception of Force of Will, all of U/W Mystic Control’s counterspells attack low-end spells costing 1 or 2. The assumption is that anything Misstep or Snare can’t handle, Force of Will, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor all can. This becomes a problem when an opposing deck can only be interacted with on the stack (rather than the battlefield) and its problem spells all cost more than 2 mana. Neither Mystic nor Jace can affect the stack and Force of Will, while a valuable 4-of, is still a 1-for-2 that every competitive combo deck already has in mind. Decks built around Show & Tell, such as Hive Mind and Sneak Attack, can present a threat that this deck has a very difficult time answering.

Show & Tell decks are among U/W Mystic Control’s worst matchups. Hive Mind is immune to most removal and can Force through its combo with relative ease. Sneak Attack can switch modes by choosing play its enchantment or drop a Progenitus, neither of which U/W has maindeck outs to. It’s not all downside, though; without their namesake cards in play, both decks do stone nothing and have plenty of dead draws. They’re also typically susceptible to aggression backed by minor disruption. Postboard, both matchups get appreciably better (though still poor) because your sideboard brings in a handful of useful cards to replace dead ones. From Owen’s GP list:

3 Meddling Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Vendilion Clique

In a metagame full of decks like this, it’s a good idea to run more copies of disruptive cards like Mage and Clique, or to choose another deck altogether. Fortunately, Hive Mind and Sneak Attack are both relatively underplayed because of how weak they are to Merfolk, which itself is one of U/W’s best matchups.

Overall, the correct sideboard comes down to what your anticipated metagame looks like, the same as any deck. Aside from individual role-players to shore up difficult matchups, there aren’t a ton of cards U/W particularly wants. It does a handful of things very well and some things not so well. The best advice I can give for sideboarding with U/W (or any other deck) is to consider what you want to accomplish and look for cards that help you do it. In order to choose the right quantity, look over your maindeck and count how many cards are bad in a particular matchup. There’s no sense running 7 cards to help you beat something if you later realize you only have 4 cards to side out.

Matchups:

In the interest of remaining intellectually honest, I’m not going to rate matchups on a percentage scale, nor give abstract evaluations of how positive or negative they are (just whether or not they are). The people who write primers are naturally people who play and enjoy the deck in question, so their ideas of how matchups play out can be skewed. Either everything is favorable, or the author overcompensates and nothing is favorable. The fact is, bias exists even if it’s just in explaining card choices. Rather than taking everything here as gospel, test U/W against a gauntlet of the best decks to assess its strengths and weaknesses for yourself.

Merfolk

Merfolk, more than “blue,” is Legacy’s policeman. It does nothing inherently unfair (except cheat on mana with Vial), plays a fast clock and has a monochromatic manabase that makes it the most consistent deck in format. It’s also one of the most heavily played decks, which makes it the first consideration for any deck that wants to succeed in a large field. You may not play against it more than once or twice, but you’re unlikely to play against it less than that. Merfolk is the litmus test for all U/x control and combo decks; it’s not necessarily critical to have a positive Merfolk matchup to win a tournament or even to be a successful archetype, but it does exist, it is widely played and it’s to your benefit to address it.

The most relevant threat Merfolk plays against U/W Mystic Control is Lord of Atlantis and to a lesser extent, Aether Vial (to help resolve Lord of Atlantis). Though its overall synergy and other lords are dangerous, Lord of Atlantis is the only card that makes the combat step non-interactive once you’ve landed your equipments (presumably, your second equipment should be Sword of Body & Mind; the protection here is relevant because Merrow Reejerey can imitate LoA’s effect with it’s tapping). The most important part of playing this matchup, both pre and postboard is to resolve Stoneforge Mystic. You’ve got much greater card selection (they have none) and approximately equal amounts of countermagic. Most competitive Merfolk players have also begun including a full set of 4 Dismember somewhere in their 75.

Whether you win or lose this matchup depends entirely on your ability resolve SFM (into Batterskull), protect them from Dismember and keep Lord of Atlantis off the table. Postboard, you have a lot of help once you double up on Swords effects and add in miser cards like Pithing Needle, Oblivion Ring and Wrath of God. U/W’s strength in this matchup is a particular reason to play this deck over a slower control deck with similar cards, such as UW Landstill or BUG Landstill.

Zoo

Zoo is Legacy’s premier pure aggro deck. In the same manner as Merfolk, Zoo does nothing inherently unfair and plays a (very) fast clock. Most modern Zoo lists are also running a critical mass of 1-drops to overwhelm blue decks’ counterspell suites. It’s a fairly heavily played deck, being the most successful non-blue deck on the SCG Open circuit (Maverick is more successful in Europe). Zoo also has the advantage of being able to cheaply and effectively answer both Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull with its full burn suite, Path to Exile and maindeck Qasali Pridemage.

Postboard, the matchup could get even worse; Ancient Grudge (sometimes Krosan Grip), additional Pridemages (if they don’t run the full set already) and must-answer bombs like Choke and Elspeth, Knight Errant make Zoo one of U/W’s more difficult matchups. It’s still entirely winnable, since Mental Misstep and Spell Snare are both effective against almost everything they run preboard and you get a ton of help postboard. As with other creature decks, doubling up on Swords and adding in sweepers makes it noticeably easier to stabilize. If the game goes long, you have a much better shot because Zoo will run out of gas faster than U/W and U/W has more ways to refill its hand. A second Batterskull is especially nice in case the first is destroyed.

Maverick

Maverick is one of several G/x (usually G/W) midrange aggro decks that eschews the speed and burn of Zoo for a more stable manabase and bigger creatures. Like U/W, the deck can switch mid game between aggressive and control roles, though where U/W plays a better control deck, Maverick plays a better aggro deck. Against U/W, Maverick is the aggressor, attempting to overwhelm it with early acceleration and fat (for example, t1 Noble Hierarch, t2 Knight of the Reliquary) and follow up with cheap utility creatures like Mother of Runes. Unlike vs. most aggro decks, countermagic is useful against Maverick because stalling into Jace is the best play U/W has in this matchup.

As with other creature-heavy decks, Maverick can be difficult for U/W to beat, although it gets better postboard and is still entirely winnable. You’ll be siding in all of your extra Swords and sweepers and possibly a second Batterskull for when (not if) the first one is destroyed. Hopefully, the frequency with which you side in cards like Path to Exile, Wrath of God, etc. speaks to their strength as sideboard cards. Where other so-called aggro-hosers like Moat, Peacekeeper and Vedalken Shackles would be dead weight against giant Knights and grips full burn, Path, Wrath and their ilk are straightforward and effective.

UW/x, BUG Landstill

Landstill variants share most of their shell with U/W Mystic Control, since they both play similar strategies in similar colors. These decks are all essentially mono blue control splashing other colors for removal. Their particular difference with Mystic Control is the SFM package itself; creatureless Landstill lists fill the extra slots with additional planeswalkers like Elspeth, Knight Errant or Ajani Vengeant and maindeck sweepers like Pernicious Deed or Wrath of God. Though opinions are sure to vary, the Mystic package is an advantage in this matchup because of its reusability. In a matchup that depends so heavily on cards to the exclusion of most everything else, sources of recurring card advantage like Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull or Sword of (Body & Mind, Feast & Famine, Fire & Ice) are extremely valuable. More than anything, though, planeswalkers and Vendilion Clique dominate this matchup from either side of the table.

Mystic Control has more aggressive early drops than creatureless Landstill variants, which puts in you in the unique position of determining what to fight over. If they allow SFM to resolve, it can threaten a fast clock with equipment. If they counter it, you have a resource advantage when it comes time to fight over Clique and Jace. Their typical methods of recouping lost card advantage (Standstill, Deed, Wrath) range from dead to not good, since after all, these cards are explicitly meant to deal with creature-heavy decks. Rather than drag dead weight in game 1 and side them out for games 2 and 3, you just don’t have them in. It’s worth mentioning that additional copies of Clique and Jace are never dead, even if you already have one on the battlefield. If either remains unanswered, you will probably win. As soon as they are answered, you will want another one immediately. This is true for either side: never, ever let Jace resolve if you can do anything in your power to stop it.

NO RUG

NO RUG has gained in popularity after a string of impressive finishes at GP Providence (3rd) and on the SCG Open Circuit. As a Noble Hierarch deck, NO RUG is susceptible to having its critical 1-mana creature countered or killed before it can accelerate into a Natural Order. Also as a Noble Hierarch deck, it has a tendency to exhaust its hand on early acceleration and then have difficulty recouping lost card advantage. As long as you keep them off Natural Order, this shouldn’t be a problem matchup. Always easier said than done, NO RUG maindecks 3 Vendilion Cliques and runs more free countermagic in Daze, with access to red blasts postboard. NO RUG also accelerates considerably faster than U/W, so racing them to the table with aggressive early drops is a bad idea. Rather, it’s important to stop early Hierarchs from untapping, either through Misstep, Snare on GSZ for X=1, or Swords. Once they’re playing at a reasonable pace, the game should be much easier.

Unfortunately, resolved Natural Order is a legitimate “oops, I win” card on most board states. Preboard games feel about even (you have a game-ending 4-mana sorcery too) and postboard they should get considerably easier. While NO RUG sides in red blasts to fight blue cards, U/W sides out blue cards for white creature removal. Overall, this is a very positive change for you, even if it makes Natural Order more likely to resolve. If the worst happens, you can still race with Batterskull(s) or answer Progenitus with Wrath. Though NO RUG isn’t as creature-heavy as some other decks, many of its spells and lands act like creatures, so additional cheap removal out of the board is still at a premium.

Hive Mind

Hive Mind is as close as it gets to a miserable matchup for U/W, even with a decent amount of help postboard. Permanent removal such as Oblivion Ring, Repeal, Wipe Away and Disenchant all come down too late, as the Hive Mind player never needs to pass priority until the damage is done. Even worse, the deck has functional access to twice the number of Force of Wills on its combo turn because Pact of Negation’s drawback will presumably never trigger. It also has fewer dead draws than most Show & Tell decks, but they do exist. Disrupting their early cantrips with otherwise-dead Missteps and landing early pressure with Stoneforge Mystic is crucial to winning this matchup.

Postboard, Meddling Mage comes down faster than Hive Mind and their only ways to handle it are typically Force of Will and Slaughter Pact. Even off of Show and Tell, assuming the Hive Mind player will drop their deck’s namesake card, Meddling Mage gives you the opportunity to name a Pact before they receive priority. Hopefully, an early Vendilion Clique will provide you with the information you need to guess correctly. Even without it, any guess is better than nothing. Alongside the Mage, Vendilion Clique is your most valuable card in this matchup since it provides information, cycles something important and puts them on a fast clock.

Dredge

Once upon a time, Dredge was an unwinnable game 1 opponent for most decks. In fact, part of its appeal was that it only really needed earn one win per match. Mental Misstep has somewhat changed that dynamic, since countering all of their enablers is now a pretty realistic possibility. Dredge needs to keep or mulligan certain hands based on the presence of specific enablers- mana, discard outlets, dredgers and draw spells and some hands, for example those without a Dredger, are auto-mulligans even if they’re otherwise good. Many cards like Careful Study and Breakthrough have overlapping roles and for the most part, are all easily counterable. Setting Dredge back a couple of turns by countering key spells (conveniently, all 1 drops) can put you very far ahead going into the midgame, where resolving Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull will end it in short order. However, Dredge is an explosive combo deck that can blow up in your face if it gets the chance, plus many of its cards work just as well from the graveyard as they would in-hand.

For the most part, Dredge’s likelihood to win is heavily dependent on the coinflip of what they actually dredge into and whether or not you have relevant cards. Sometimes, they do nothing while you kill them. Other times, you don’t get the chance to do anything before they kill you. For the GP, Owen ran three Relics to stop graveyard shenanigans, but with the maindeck the way it is, I don’t think they’re necessary. Your countermagic is highly effective at stalling into Stoneforge Mystic and returning Batterskull to your hand will exile any Bridges that manage to hit the yard. Graveyard hate can be very hit-or-miss in an open field and Dredge is not terribly difficult to beat without it. As such, unless you anticipate more abusive graveyard strategies, it’s probably OK to cut Relics for something more widely applicable.

Team America

Team America waxes and wanes depending on what cards are seeing play in other decks. This is because it’s matchups can be very swingy depending on the metagame presence of certain cards, such as Blood Moon and Back to Basics, that can end games on the spot. Among the cards Team America has difficulty beating are Mystic, Jace, Vision and Standstill. Conveniently, these are mainstay 4-ofs in U/W Mystic Control. Predictably, this matchup is one of your better ones. Older versions packing Stifle may prove more difficult (I don’t know this for sure; it’s personal conjecture), but Stifle is poorly positioned in today’s metagame anyway. This matchup typically plays out in the same way; Team America’s hand disruption and U/W’s countermagic trade early until both players’ hands are drained, then Vision, Standstill, Mystic or Jace puts U/W firmly in the driver’s seat until it hits more card advantage spells and the game ends.

Postboard this matchup doesn’t get much worse, as Team America doesn’t play a very convincing BUG Landstill game and all of your best cards are at their actual best. The cards to side in for this matchup might be nothing, maybe extra Crucibles if you’ve got them, or possibly even Path to Exile instead of Sword to Plowshares since they don’t run basics (in which case, Path would just be a slight upgrade).

Rock, Junk & other B/G/x Midrange

Rock, Junk & other B/G/x midrange is not an archetype you will see very often anymore, mostly because it’s a less-powerful cousin to Team America. When Team America is bad, B/G/x midrange decks are really bad. Rather than use this primer as a soapbox for my personal opinions on this deck, I’ll just refer you to the Team America section of this primer. The matchup is similar, except instead of Force of Will, they have Knight of the Reliquary, which means you might want additional spot removal postboard. Either way, it’s another fairly easy matchup. The rise of U/W Mystic Control directly correlated with the waning relative popularity of decks like this and for good reason.

ANT, TES & other Storm Combo

Storm combo is another archetype that has seen better days, though in fairness to them, they used to be amazingly good even when Counterbalance was the most common strategy in the format. Nowadays, skilled storm pilots are rare and their decks are significantly less powerful than they used to be (plus the opposition is more powerful than it used to be). Counterspells and disruptive cards like Meddling Mage and Vendilion Clique are at a premium here, except unlike with Hive Mind combo, all of your counterspells are relevant. It seems fairly straightforward, but save Missteps for Duress/ Thoughtseize/ Chant, Snares for anything they can hit (usually Infernal Tutor/ Burning Wish) and Force of Will for whatever’s left at the end of the spell chain. Batterskull can race Empty the Warrens tokens and the lifegain can make it harder to get a Tendrils kill. Until this archetype gets another boost from new printings (and subsequently, a setback from new bannings), it isn’t necessary to build a sideboard specific to them. Common sense rules apply- side out creature removal and possibly some number of Jaces, side in your anti-combo/ control cards.

Patriot & Esperblade

The final decks I want to touch upon are Patriot and Esperblade. Both of these decks are related to U/W Mystic Control in that they’re all made possible by the power of Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Though the matchups are relatively even (you do run almost all of the exact same cards, after all), I believe U/W is at an advantage due to its stronger manabase and the relative lack of importance of splash cards in these matchups. Though they’re not entirely comparable, Standard U/W Caw-Blade created several variant decks, Sparkblade and Darkblade (conveniently, the same splashes for the same reasons as they exist in Legacy).

Both were supposed to dominate the mirror, but time and again U/W proved it was favored. Tectonic Edge (Wasteland), more basics and a better-focused strategy empirically contributed to a positive win percentage for U/W against either splash. Whatever anyone’s justification for either splash to beat the mirror, the fact is that when U/W came up against either, it won more often than not. Much like Standard, though, these matchups are skill-intensive because of the high level of interaction. Minor advantages aside, the better player will usually win. These play out much like vs. Landstill variants, except closer to a true mirror. The best you can do is side in your anti-control cards and play well.


Suggested Reading:

One Step Ahead – Building The Best Ancestral Vision Deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21990_One_Step_Ahead_Building_The_Best_Ancestral_Vision_Deck.html)
Innovations – Is The Best Creature In Magic White? (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21976_Innovations_Is_The_Best_Creature_In_Magic_White.html)

These are about BUG Landstill specifically, but still have a lot of useful information about Mystic, Jace and post-Misstep Blue in Legacy:
Initial Technology – Taking Our Time in Providence (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/initial-technology-taking-our-time-in-providence/)
PV’s Playhouse – The Day Rhode Island Stood Still *4th* (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pvs-playhouse-the-day-rhode-island-stood-still-4th/)


BONUS - IBA's analysis of the most recent 20 successful lists (as of 2011-07-12):

2.8 Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
1.15 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)
0.1 Mountain (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mountain)
3.9 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded%20Strand)
2.45 Polluted Delta (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Polluted%20Delta)
0.75 Scalding Tarn (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20Tarn)
0.6 Misty Rainforest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Misty%20Rainforest)
0.3 Arid Mesa (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Arid%20Mesa)
0.05 Windswept Heath (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Windswept%20Heath)
3.6 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)
0.5 Volcanic Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volcanic%20Island)
0.25 Underground Sea (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Underground%20Sea)
0.2 Tropical Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tropical%20Island)
0.15 Scrubland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scrubland)
0.05 Plateau (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plateau)
3 Mishra's Factory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Factory)
2.45 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
0.25 Karakas (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karakas)
0.1 Academy Ruins (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Academy%20Ruins)
0.05 Faerie Conclave (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Faerie%20Conclave)
0.15 Chrome Mox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chrome%20Mox)

3.95 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge%20Mystic)
1.75 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion%20Clique)
0.2 Tarmogoyf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tarmogoyf)
0.2 Dark Confidant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Confidant)
0.15 Grim Lavamancer (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grim%20Lavamancer)
0.15 Bitterblossom (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bitterblossom)

3.1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)
0.05 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Elspeth,%20Knight-Errant)

0.1 Sword of the Meek (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20the%20Meek)
0.05 Thopter Foundry (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thopter%20Foundry)

1.2 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
0.45 Sword of Body and Mind (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Body%20and%20Mind)
0.35 Sword of Feast and Famine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Feast%20and%20Famine)
0.05 Umezawa's Jitte (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Umezawa%27s%20Jitte)
0.05 Sword of War and Peace (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20War%20and%20Peace)
0.05 Sword of Fire and Ice (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Fire%20and%20Ice)

3.75 Mental Misstep (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mental%20Misstep)
3.55 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
2.65 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare)
1 Daze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze)
0.55 Counterspell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)
0.2 Hymn to Tourach (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hymn%20to%20Tourach)
0.15 Counterbalance (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterbalance)
0.15 Thoughtseize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize)
0.1 Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce)

3.75 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)
0.45 Wrath of God (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wrath%20of%20God)
0.2 Repeal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Repeal)
0.1 Path to Exile (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Path%20to%20Exile)
0.1 Engineered Explosives (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Engineered%20Explosives)
0.1 Firespout (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Firespout)
0.05 Oblivion Ring (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Oblivion%20Ring)
0.05 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)

4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
1.75 Standstill (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Standstill)
1.6 Ancestral Vision (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancestral%20Vision)
0.45 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20Worlds)
0.45 Sensei's Divining Top (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top)
0.05 Enlightened Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Enlightened%20Tutor)

Or rounding:

3 Islands (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Islands)
1 Plains (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Plains)
4 Flooded Strand (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Flooded%20Strand)
4 Other blue fetchland (people seem to like Polluted Delta strictly for the old school factor, although running it as a 4x marginally increases vulnerability to Pithing Needle I guess) (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Other%20blue%20fetchland%20%28people%20seem%20to%20like%20Polluted%20Delta%20strictly%20for%20the%20old%20school%20factor,%20although%20running%20it%20as%20a%204x%20marginally%20increases%20vulnerability%20to%20Pithing%20Needle%20I%20guess%29)
4 Tundra (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tundra)
1 Volcanic Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Volcanic%20Island)
3 Mishra's Factory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mishra%27s%20Factory)
2 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
+ (http://deckbox.org/mtg/+)
3rd Wasteland or utility land (http://deckbox.org/mtg/rd%20Wasteland%20or%20utility%20land)

4 Stoneforge Mystic (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Stoneforge%20Mystic)
2 Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion%20Clique)

1 Batterskull (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Batterskull)
1 Sword of Relevance To Your Meta (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sword%20of%20Relevance%20To%20Your%20Meta)

4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
4 Standstil (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Standstil)
(or, slightly less likely) (http://deckbox.org/mtg/%28or,%20slightly%20less%20likely%29)
4 Ancestral Vision (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancestral%20Vision)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Jace,%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor)
1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20Worlds)

4 Swords to Plowshares (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swords%20to%20Plowshares)

4 Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 Mental Misstep (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mental%20Misstep)
3 Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare)
1 Daze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze)
1 Counterspell (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Counterspell)

So basically Turtenwald's list, with only a few people really trying anything radically different.

Some notes:

These builds in general seem heavily geared towards fighting against combo and other blue decks. It looks like your best bet is going to be something like Zoo, Goblins, or Maverick, which can outclass or overrun their threats.

Some of these manabases seem somewhat optimistic. I'm not sure why Team America isn't doing better here. If you're going to play Merfolk in a Blade Control heavy meta you should think about Stifle main.

These decks are light on sweepers and answers to resolved permanents generally. For some reason a control deck that is very light on creature count has decided its backup win condition is going to be an incredibly fragile flyer. I would think one would want that in the board for combo if anything, but I've never understood the fascination with that card exactly.

Most lists are also only running one Batterskull and so incredibly vulnerable to Pridemage or Vindicate, the latter of which will also hit their other bomby threat, Jace.

lorddotm
07-11-2011, 07:39 PM
NO FIRSTING! -zilla

Do you guys think splashing black for Perish is good enough. Whenever I fuck around with this deck online I lose to various GW decks (Zoo, Mavrick, No Force, etc).

Hanni
07-11-2011, 08:03 PM
If you're going to dip into black for sideboard Perish, I see no reason to run Standstill or Ancestral Visions over Dark Confidant. Although, I don't see why various G/W Aggro would give a U/W Control deck problems, to be honest. That's one of traditional U/W Control's best matchups, regardless if you're running SFM or not.

EDIT: Speaking about traditional U/W Control, here's my not-so-traditional U/W Control deck:

U/W Countertop Superfriends

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Creatures (0)

Spells (38)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Moat
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

SFM looks like a much better card advantage engine than Predict:

-3 Predict
-1 Kor Haven
+4 Stoneforge Mystic

I have to compensate with my blue spell count though, and the next best blue spell would be Mental Misstep:

-2 Path to Exile
-1 Oblivion Ring
+3 Mental Misstep

I have to fit in some equipment:

-1 Counterspell
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Batterskull
+1 Batterskull/Jitte/Sword of Relevance to Your Metagame

The numbers can be tweaked further, but basically a few tweaks and the deck goes from being Countertop Superfriends to Blade Control (although it still runs the Superfriends):

U/W Blade Control

Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains

Creatures (4)
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (35)
2 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Mental Misstep
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Moat
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

Of course, the sideboard would likely need readjusted. The 2nd Batterskull could become Jitte or Sword of X and Y, depending on the predicted metagame. Whatever relevant equipment isn't maindecked should likely be sideboarded.

In fact, with Elspeth cranking out 1/1 tokens, the 2nd maindeck Batterskull should likely be an Umezawa's Jitte instead.

EDIT: Here's a potential adjusted sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
2 Aura of Silence
2 Pithing Needle

wcm8
07-11-2011, 08:15 PM
^That's the nice thing about the deck, your third color can just be a splash for SB cards (and to enable explosives at 3).

I've been testing this deck a bit, and so far it seems to me like the red splash is the best, simply for the REB and Pyroblasts in the board. Black offers you discard and Bob, however I really hated bitterblossom in this deck for some reason. Even if you do play blossom I would not use Spellstutter Sprite -- it has been far too conditional in my experience.

Wrath of God was good for me, although I can see the merits of running perish or firespout. I suppose it really depends on the meta, just like the blade of choice.

Hanni
07-11-2011, 08:28 PM
Wrath of God was good for me, although I can see the merits of running perish or firespout. I suppose it really depends on the meta, just like the blade of choice.

I'm a personal fan of Vedalken Shackles. It doesn't destroy your SFM's or Germ tokens, and it's alot less narrow than Perish or Firespout. It dodges Cursecatcher, is alot easier to cast than Wrath of God at 3 colorless vs 2WW, and it keeps you in U/W for the stable manabase.

Koby
07-11-2011, 08:43 PM
UW alone has a tough time dealing with all the threats G/W Maverick can dish - backed by some sweet bombs like Choke and Elspeth, as well as Sylvan Library. I'd say the matchup is probably 60/40 in Maverick's favor.

I do think that a splash is highly useful in the metagame, and if a black splash were to be used, then Dark Confidant is also where I'd first start the list.

Here's my Darkblade:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry

1 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
2 Disenchant
2 Perish
3 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cursed Totem
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Cabal Therapy

Hanni
07-11-2011, 08:49 PM
U/W has plenty of tools for dealing with G/W Maverick, both preboard, and postboard. Go look in the U/W Landstill thread and ask them what they think about that matchup. If you're having a tough time with it, maybe you should visit the U/W Landstill thread for some ideas.

lorddotm
07-11-2011, 11:53 PM
I'm a personal fan of Vedalken Shackles. It doesn't destroy your SFM's or Germ tokens, and it's alot less narrow than Perish or Firespout. It dodges Cursecatcher, is alot easier to cast than Wrath of God at 3 colorless vs 2WW, and it keeps you in U/W for the stable manabase.

Really. You like Shackles? The funny thing about Shackle is that is looks pretty stupid when facing down a Knight. And Pridemage. Not to mention Ancient Grudges after boarding. Wrath does what it says it does, often and effectively. If you are having trouble with the Merfolk match up, defend your SFM better. They can't actually beat a Batterskull. Not to mention that if you have enough basics in your list (or are intelligent about cracking fetches), Wrath is extremely easy to force through.


U/W has plenty of tools for dealing with G/W Maverick, both preboard, and postboard. Go look in the U/W Landstill thread and ask them what they think about that matchup. If you're having a tough time with it, maybe you should visit the U/W Landstill thread for some ideas.

First of all, this isn't UW Landstill. Second of all I usually see Zoo beating the shit out of Landstill.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-11-2011, 11:59 PM
I'm pretty sure -2 Clique +2 Wrath would be a huge boost in the deck's overall win percentages. Like Clique helps out the matchups you should already be winning. Wrath goes a long way to helping in the matchups where you're going to get your ass kicked otherwise.

Hanni
07-12-2011, 12:30 AM
Really. You like Shackles? The funny thing about Shackle is that is looks pretty stupid when facing down a Knight. And Pridemage. Not to mention Ancient Grudges after boarding. Wrath does what it says it does, often and effectively. If you are having trouble with the Merfolk match up, defend your SFM better. They can't actually beat a Batterskull. Not to mention that if you have enough basics in your list (or are intelligent about cracking fetches), Wrath is extremely easy to force through.


As opposed to say, a Firespout trying to kill a Knight? I realize you were talking about Wrath of God and not Firespout, but others were advocating Firespout, and one of my points was that Shackles keeps you in U/W without going into red. Wrath of God is great against Knight of the Reliquary, but that's one of the few creatures that Shackles cannot answer. Actually, depending on gamestate, I've actually stolen a few Knights with Shackles before. This deck really shouldn't be having significant problems against Knight of the Reliquary, though.

If they have a Pridemage on the board with the mana open to activate him, then sure, you either hit him with a Swords, or worst case scenario, you let the Pridemage eat the Shackles, in which case you spent 3 mana to destroy their Pridemage. Between Counterbalance, Shackles, and Batterskull, there are too many targets for them to destroy them all. Besides, it's not out of the question to just keep the Pridemage off the table in the first place.

Ancient Grudge? I would have thought Krosan Grip would have been the more popular choice. Artifact/enchantment removal? I might as well cut my Batterskulls and Counterbalances while I'm at it.

Wrath of God costs 2WW, which is incredibly slow, and happens to kill your SFM and Germ tokens if you have them on the board prior to. I've playtested alot with Wrath of God in the past. It's a solid card, but it's clunky, and gets even worse if you expect to see Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland, etc.

There are very few targets Shackles doesn't steal. Stealing an opponent's creature and trading it in combat with another one of the opponent's creatures is alot stronger than you think. Even if you're just stealing a Goyf to act as a wall, that's still a solid play. Shackles might not immediately wipe the board clean, but its effect persists throughout the game until dealt with. A resolved Shackles wins games against aggro decks. This is also assuming you only ever see a single Shackles; two active Shackles is a pretty hard lock for an aggro player to win through.

Before I began playtesting with Shackles, I wasn't convinced by its power at all when someone suggested it to me. I initially dismissed the idea, actually. After playtesting with it, my perspective changed completely. Shackles is one of the best creature control spells in the format.

By the way, Merfolk actually can beat a Batterskull. If they get a Lord of Atlantis on the table, they can and will race you. If they have a Merrow Reejery, they are gonna tap down your 4/4 and swing in. They have other outs as well. That's also banking on you drawing a SFM early, because getting a Batterskull into play takes a few turns, and all Merfolk needs is a few turns before you're dead. I'm not saying that Batterskull doesn't beat Merfolk, but it's not always gg if you do manage to get one into play.

Saying that Wrath is easy to force through shows your lack of playtesting with Wrath of God against Merfolk. Even if they aren't running Spell Pierce anymore, you still have Daze and Cursecatcher to contend with. Also, even with a stable manabase, there will be times when you draw a Tundra or two and Wasteland sets you back. This is even more true for the lists that are running Mishra's Factory. Besides, Wrath of God doesn't touch their Mutavault's, which can and will continue to smack you down after you've cast Wrath of God.

Too many times in my older versions of U/W Control against Merfolk, with Wrath of God, I was dead before I could ever resolve the damn thing, and even in the matchups where I did eventually resolve it, I was still dead from additional pressure afterwards. Against a deck like Goblins or Merfolk, they can easily recover after a Wrath of God if you don't follow it up with your own additional pressure.

Wrath of God is great against G/x aggro, because those decks have a much harder time recovering. However, a smart opponent won't overextend if they know you're playing Wrath of God. If you're keeping their guys off the table with countermagic and Swords to Plowshares, which you will need to do so that you don't die before you can finally cast Wrath of God, you'll find yourself using Wrath of God as a 1-for-1 trade alot of times.

At any rate, I'm not bashing Wrath of God. Both Shackles and Wrath of God have their pros and cons. There will be times when Wrath of God is going to be the better spell. However, I do want it to be known that Shackles is the stone cold nuts.


First of all, this isn't UW Landstill. Second of all I usually see Zoo beating the shit out of Landstill.

What does Zoo have to do with whether or not this deck has a good or bad G/W Aggro matchup? I mean, my comment on G/W Aggro was what you quoted, and I never brought up the Zoo matchup. Regardless, this deck is very similar to Landstill, considering both decks are U/W Control decks and share alot of the same cards. I fail to see why a very good matchup for Landstill (G/W Aggro) becomes a very bad matchup for Blade Control.

As far as Zoo is concerned, the build of Landstill and the build of Zoo greatly determines which deck has the favored matchup. Fast Zoo is favored because of the increased speed and reach, while Big Zoo loses out due to Landstill having a ton of creature kill, which can easily mitigate a majority of the early creature damage and gas a Zoo opponent out.

Besides, since we're bringing Zoo into the mix, how is Zoo any better of a matchup for this deck than Landstill? You're SFM is rarely going to be able to activate a Batterskull into play through their dense removal package. Unless you're rocking CounterTop, I fail to see how you're going to have a good Zoo matchup with 4 Swords to Plowshares as you're only creature removal.

Wall of text. Enjoy.

lorddotm
07-12-2011, 02:04 AM
Knight is an issue because Batterskull is kind of bad against it. Sure, you have 4 Swords, but a lot of Knight decks have 8 Knights (Zenith), or they can protect their Knights. But I guess you have Elspeth, which I do not have main.

Pridemage will rack you over the coals. It is already decent against normal lists, but he is a must Force threat against you. Killing your Counterbalance, Batterskulls, and

A lot of people are running Grips and Grudges, so have fun with those blowouts where Wrath would've stabilized you.

Shackles doesn't steal Knight or Thrun a lot of the time. There is no creature in Legacy that WoG doesn't kill. Literally. Have fun.

Dazes, Pierces, and Wastelands are also pretty good against Shackles, but I guess you live in Magical Christmas Land where you answer everything and they have nothing.

Sure Merfolk can nut draw you, I never said the match up is a bye, but with Batterskull, the match up is favored.

The reason Wrath is good, is because a lot of the time your Batterskulls will bye you time.


Do you guys think splashing black for Perish is good enough. Whenever I fuck around with this deck online I lose to various GW decks (Zoo, Mavrick, No Force, etc).

That is all I have to say.

menace13
07-12-2011, 02:26 AM
I'm pretty sure -2 Clique +2 Wrath would be a huge boost in the deck's overall win percentages. Like Clique helps out the matchups you should already be winning. Wrath goes a long way to helping in the matchups where you're going to get your ass kicked otherwise.
I would have to agree. The Blade lists are really popular on MTGO and I seem to enjoy throwing Merfolk at them( I like Pain?). Liam is correct that Batterskull(x6) will win the match outright(mini Tinker-Bruizar was right-), but the Matches I do steal all have one thing in common.. They don't have Batterskull in play and they Can't wipe the Board from the relentless fish beats.

Tom T
07-12-2011, 05:04 AM
I have a primer ready to be posted and I'll be able to post it in like 8 hours. It lacks some match-up analysis because I'm not playing the deck for years either.

~Tom

Tom T
07-12-2011, 05:31 AM
Wrath of God is good against Zoo and GW Agro and Vedalken Shackles is good against those decks too.

Merfolk won't have a hard time against Wrath of God for it will be hard to cast it, countered or too late to be effective. Mutavault will be destroyed by Wasteland.
Vedalken Shackles isn't that good either because just a single Lord of Atlantis makes it useless and Shackles is very mana-hungry when you're in an uphill battle with the fish. Next to that, how are you effectively going to play a card like this, when you have 8 collorless lands?

Next problem is the Goblin-matchup, which will be like 50/50 heavily depending on playing skills. Shackles isn't going to do something against a swarm and they can just recover from a WoG.

If you'd like a pre-board chance against Merfolk and Goblins, you would have to play the more greedy Patriot-deck or at least play a splash for Grim Lavamancers/Lightning Bolt or the like.

lorddotm
07-12-2011, 05:40 AM
Wrath of God is good against Zoo and GW Agro and Vedalken Shackles is good against those decks too.

Merfolk won't have a hard time against Wrath of God for it will be hard to cast it, countered or too late to be effective. Mutavault will be destroyed by Wasteland.
Vedalken Shackles isn't that good either because just a single Lord of Atlantis makes it useless and Shackles is very mana-hungry when you're in an uphill battle with the fish. Next to that, how are you effectively going to play a card like this, when you have 8 collorless lands?

Next problem is the Goblin-matchup, which will be like 50/50 heavily depending on playing skills. Shackles isn't going to do something against a swarm and they can just recover from a WoG.

If you'd like a pre-board chance against Merfolk and Goblins, you would have to play the more greedy Patriot-deck or at least play a splash for Grim Lavamancers/Lightning Bolt or the like.

I haven't tested much against Goblins, since it doesn't exist anymore in LA, but I have tested against Merfolk, and it is an easy match up.

Tom T
07-12-2011, 06:03 AM
I haven't tested much against Goblins, since it doesn't exist anymore in LA, but I have tested against Merfolk, and it is an easy match up.

And can you explain that a little? Maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong.

lorddotm
07-12-2011, 07:21 AM
And can you explain that a little? Maybe I'm doing something horribly wrong.

What seems to be working for me is straight UW with 7 fetch and 5 basics. I just try and get to 5 or 6 mana if I didn't get SFM, which will easily be able to stall you until you can get Wrath mana, or let you drop Jace or whatever. Postboard Needles are also fairly good, naming Vial, Mutavault, and Coralhelm all have their benefits.

Mainly just finding and protecting a SFM/Batterskull or a Wrath has been more than enough for me. Also, Snaring Silvergils is insanely good, probably better than Snaring Coralhelms, and arguably better than Snaring Lord of Atlantis.

This all being said, I have yet to play this in a tournament, and since I still really love TES, I don't know when I will.

Tinefol
07-12-2011, 07:49 AM
I'd have to agree, merfolk will never be an easy match up. SFM into Batterskull certainly helps, but it certainly doesn't become anywhere close to favored.

Merfolk has all the tools to beat UW Control - Wasteland, Cursecatcher, Daze, Manlands, a very fast clock on top. They have the luxury of screwing or color screwing you, they make your CA engine (Standstill) useless and most modern lists run Dismember to cut you off that that Batterskull.

There's a lot of things I've tried in a control shell and NOTHING made the match up positive, except for the splash for Grim Lavamancer (along with SFM, of course) and a bunch of STP effects.

Wrath/Moat/Humility etc don't do it due to their high casting cost
SFM alone doesn't make it, even with Batterskull.
5-6-7 basics, any amount of fetchlands. No matter how many you run, you're still getting wasted into oblivion, because you still run duals and colorless lands. You get wasted twice, and you need to hit 7 landdrops to resolve that 4cc card against Daze.
8 StP effects - they're just fine trading 1 for 1 if you don't apply any pressure. SFM lets you apply some, making match up quite better, but that isn't nearly enough.
Firespout just sucked. Often irrelevant (3 lords, or just a 1 for 1 trade), cirucumvented by Mutavault and Coralhelm. It even made their S/B Blasts good, which is something you overcome going straight UW.
EE - mostly was a clunky 1 for 1. Really, that was the same case for Wrath.
Needles - I've even tried maindecking them. See the case of 1 for 1 trades which doesn't even remove their lords and you just fill your deck with irrelevant cards for other match ups.
Counters just suck. FoW and Misstep at least can deal with Vial, but both Snare and Counterspell were totally underwhelming against Vial, which, quite frankly, they end up with more often than you counter it, since they also run Daze. And if you FoW it, well, welcome one-mana Hymn to Tourach.

If Merfolk players knows what he's doing and executes the correct strategy, he would be winning more than 50% against UW for sure.

Pingu
07-12-2011, 07:54 AM
I'm currently testing the following list:

3 Tombstalker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind

4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Island

Sb:
3 Bitterblossom
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

It plays like the first Team America decks disrupting almost eyerything, the diference is white replacing green (stoneforge crushes goyf).

Strange Cards:

The single island and blue elemental blast are there for The Patriot magus/blood moon and also helps against lavamancer.

The 4 extirpate are there for jacestill matchup, if my disruption package is countered/ineffective (it happens) they crush me with wasteland/loam lock, it also helps against dredge and combo decks in general.

Matchups:

The deck is built to deal with semi-mirrors, so matchups like team america, patriot, jacestill and other stoneforge/tarmogoyf deck variances this deck as an edge, it's very dificult to put the percentages because the matches are very skill intensive, but with the tests that i've done this deck can completely wreck their game plan, stifle, wasteland, hymn and daze are very strong against these kinda of decks.

Maverick, Zoo and NO decks are dificult but very far from winnable, especially after sideboard with Perish dealing with almost everything (knight, qasaly and progenitus), choke was never a problem even if hits play, the deck as such a low curve that you can continue playing the cards, daze also helps by bouncing something.

The main problem that i'm having is against merfolks, if batterskul comes out i usually win, but this almost never happen, maybe i'm playing bad, what do you recomend to do?

Thank you

Hanni
07-12-2011, 08:47 AM
I'm willing to concede many of the points in favor of Wrath of God over Shackles, for this deck specifically. In Countertop Superfriends, it's no contest, but this deck has a lot less spot removal. Knight is a nonissue when I run 8 spot removal spells, but I can see him being more difficult to deal with in this deck.

Shackles is still better against Merfolk, so I guess the choice of removal may depend on the predicted metagame. There are pros and cons for both.

lorddotm
07-12-2011, 08:57 AM
Shackles is still better against Merfolk, so I guess the choice of removal may depend on the predicted metagame. There are pros and cons for both.

That is true, however, as I stated before, as of right now, this deck beats Merfolk. I can't actually fathom what you guys are doing to lose this match up.

wcm8
07-12-2011, 09:28 AM
Reasons why this deck has problems vs. Merfolk:
-They are typically running at least 3 Dismember in the main. Having a 5CMC spell stranded in your hand feels dumb when you get beat down by a bunch of 'folk.
-Standstill is bad against Vial-based aggro decks, and they run wasteland/manlands too. I suppose some lists are running Ancestral Visions in place of Standstill, but that card always seems incredibly clunky (and is too slow against an aggro deck anyways)
-Vendilion Clique can't fight through a paper bag. Mishra's Factory gets outclassed as a blocker quickly.
-Jace isn't that great against merfolk.
-Even with the basics, the mana base is somewhat fragile.
-Lord of Atlantis enables them to race you, even with an on-board Batterskull.

I'm not going to say it's favored one way or the other, but it's hardly a walk in the park.

That said, I think this matchup can be mitigated with a proper sideboard and/or a red splash. Due to the fact that Merfolk is a good deck, relatively cheap to build, and can account for upwards of 25% of the legacy meta, I would not build any deck these days for a large event without taking merfolk into account with card choices.

Tinefol
07-12-2011, 09:39 AM
That is true, however, as I stated before, as of right now, this deck beats Merfolk. I can't actually fathom what you guys are doing to lose this match up.

Perhaps your playtest opponents are doing it wrong. Ever considered it?

menace13
07-12-2011, 12:56 PM
Perhaps your playtest opponents are doing it wrong. Ever considered it?
Pretty sure Stoneforge into Batterskull beats Merfolk alone( I did not test with Dismember main). It's like Tinkering a Sphinx into play.

If Merfolk loses the roll they have to Misstep your Misstep on Vial as daze is now blanked. Merfolk needs a creature heavy hand, other wise a hand with counters and lands plays into Blade's strategy of buying time until Bob draws infi removal and the Mystic. Wastelands usually end up trading Mutas for Mishras. I find it to not be an easy match up if the Blade player knows what he is doing. Stp and Snare help buy additional time.

The matchup isn't a blowout for Blade and there are times when Mystic doesn't get drawn or doesn't resolve. Gery T has an article on it here;

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21990_One_Step_Ahead_Building_The_Best_Ancestral_Vision_Deck.html

wcm8
07-12-2011, 02:24 PM
( I did not test with Dismember main)

This is definitely part of the reason you are blowing them out so easily. I'm not saying a 3-of removal is enough to sway a matchup entirely, but its presence has certainly changed the dynamics of the Merfolk vs. [whatever deck] matchup. With dismember, they can strand the Batterskull in your hand, or kill it after it's come down, granting them the window they need to win. I'm pretty sure Dismember has been pretty much universally adopted in the main deck of every merfolk player these days.

lorddotm
07-12-2011, 02:36 PM
I've been testing against competent people, trust me. They played Dismember main.

The reason you can beat Merfolk is because you can easily get ahead on them in cards and swamp them in CA. I honestly haven't had an issue with them, and post board they have almost nothing and you just get better answers.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-12-2011, 02:51 PM
Hey guys, I spent the last few hours writing a primer for this deck, hopefully to center discussion on actual U/W Stoneblade rather than talking about countertop and shackles. It's mostly formatted like Kuma's NO-RUG primer since that happened to be the first thread I clicked when looking for inspiration. Feel free to PM me with comments, criticisms or contributions on finished/ unfinished sections and I'll be happy to add them.

Moved to the OP - excellent work! ~Nihil Credo

Tom T
07-12-2011, 04:43 PM
UW Stone-Blade

Table of Contents
1) Introduction
2) Constructing the Deck
-Core Decklist
-Remaining Options
-Sideboard Options
-Sample Decklist
3) Playing the Deck
4) Matchup Analysis
5) Accomplishments
6) Credits


Introduction
The Standard deck Caw-Blade was played heavily during the days Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic were legal. Squadron Hawk combined with Jace provided an awesome boost in card-advantage and Stoneforge Mystic provided game-winning equipment and even living weapons.
The Caw-Blade deck has been introduced in Legacy and in testing some players came to the conclusion Squadron Hawk wasn’t meant for legacy, but the combination Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull proved to be sick.

Since the printing of Mental Misstep Landstill, a deck played since the beginning of our beloved format, has gained in popularity. This is also the reason this deck has top 8’ed multiple times the past weeks. The Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull combination has recently been toyed with in control decks and resulted in some new deck-types.
- Patriot (UWR Agro-Control)
- UWB Mystic-Blossom (UWB Agro-Control)
- Caw Blade (UW Agro-Control, more agro than control)
- UW(x) Stone-Blade (UW Agro-Control, more control than agro)
To prevent confusion only the fourth decktype is to be discussed in this thread.

The reason I call UW Stone-Blade an agro-control deck is because it’s affected by creature-removal, which blue control (usually) isn’t. However, the deck can be perceived in two ways:
- Landstill with a creature-based kill-condition.
- UW tempo/agro with an addition of more control-ish cards.
This will result in different strategies and cardselection. Play what suits you the most, but try to be open-minded towards players with different views.

Constructing the Deck
As a Landstill deck it relies on the Standstill + Manlands combination, which has been a great combination for many years. However playing Standstill requires a stable board position to work. The main problem Standstill-players faced were early drops that gave the opponent a dominant board position. They had to deal with the threat first before laying down a Stanstill.
Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares helped to pull this off but often enough this wasn’t the case, for agro-decks became much faster. The release of Mental Misstep gave Landstill-players another answer to early-game threats.
Next to kill-conditions and the standstill/manlands combination perfect utility, removal and denial is essential.

Utility
4 Brainstorm

Denial
3/4 Force of Will
3/4 Mental Misstep

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares

These are the most efficient spells in blue and white. Brainstorm is the glue of the deck as it is in most blue agro-control decks. It’s necessary for cardquality, fixing mana and digging for answers and kill-conditions.
Mental Misstep has been discussed a lot lately. Some think it’s an automatic four-off, some think Landstill doesn’t need it.

This deck is usually supported by approximately 23 lands. The manabase usually runs a lot of colorless resources as Mishra’s Factory and Wasteland. Consistency is important thus it is necessary to play a lot of lands.

Core manabase:
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland/ other manlands
3/4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2-4 Other blue-based fetchlands
2/3 Island
1 Plains

It usually takes 8 manlands/Wastelands to make the Standstill-strategy work. Mishra’s Factory is the best manland for the deck at the time and wasteland deals with opposing manlands. Tundra and fetchlands are needed for consistency of the deck and basics can ensure you don’t get mana-screwed early game by wasteland. Next to that, the synergy with fetchlands and Brainstorm is always nice so having a large amount of fetches is preferred.

Because the deck is control oriented it plays a lot of counterspells, usually between 11 and 13. Spell Snare, Counterspell and Daze are often contender for those slots.
With all of that together, the core decklist looks something like this.


Core Decklist
Land
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland/ other manlands
3/4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2-4 Other blue-based fetchlands
2/3 Island
1 Plains

Utility
4 Brainstorm
3/4 Standstill

Denial (11 – 13)
3/4 Force of Will
3/4 Mental Misstep
3-7 Other counterspells

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares

Kill-conditions
3/4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3/4 Stoneforge Mystic
1/2 Batterskull


Remaining Options
The remaining cards can go to a variety of cards for different matchups or personal play style. Here are a few options for the remaining slots.

Sword of X and Y – Most of the time people choose to play one Sword of X and Y in favor of the second Batterskull. Usually it’s Sword of Body and Mind, Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Feast and Famine. In section 6 there is a link to a thread about Sword of X and Y choices.

Vendilion Clique – It is never truly bad because it is a solid beater that can jump in the way of an attacker for the kill or fly over the stand-offs. Against combo, it is a great disruption piece and beater and against control, flashing it in at the end of their turn can leave the path open for Tarmogoyf or Survival.

Crucible of Worlds – A very common choice to get a waste-lock online or to get card-advantage (i.e. playing land from your graveyard and brainstorm lands in your hand back in your deck).

Ancestral Vision instead of Standstill – I won’t discuss this in the primer, for it is a matter of preference. You can discuss that in the thread.

Ponder/Preordain – Most people are playing blue-based decks to get a grip on the cards in their hand. Deck manipulation gives an incredible feeling of advantage and some prefer more than just 4 Brainstorm.

Repeal – Some think it’s amazing and others think it feels clunky for it usually has a high mana-cost or is a dead card. It is used to buy a turn by temporarily getting rid of a threat or to combine it with Standstill.

Engineered Explosives – An out to a lot of pesky permanents. A splash of another color is needed though.


Sideboard Options
As there are a lot of options on this one, I will be addressing the sideboardcards top8-reached decklists of the past month ran.

Manriki-Gusari – If there are a lot of equipment in your meta, this can be a fantastic card.

Path to Exile – As a supplement to Swords to Plowshares to deal with agro like Zoo, Team America, Merfolk, Junk etc.

Tormod’s Crypt / Relic of Progenitus / Surgical Extraction – Graveyard-hate for Ichorid, Tarmogoy, Knight of the Reliquary or other graveyard-based strategies.

Pithing Needle – A versatile and cheap card that answers problems like Aether Vial, Thopter Foundry, Rishadan Port, Mutavault, Engineered Explosives, Mother of Runes, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Knight of the Reliquary and many other things.

Ethersworn Canonist – Combo win with it in play and they have to remove it before they can win.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress – A perfect answer against Merfolk, watch out for Dismember though.

Wrath of God – In a heavy agro-infested meta this card would be a decent choice. If Thrun, the Last Troll is a problematic card for you, this is a decent answer to it.

Humility – Against big problematic creatures like Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Thrun, Tombstalker, Emrakul and Progenitus. This doesn’t work exceptionally well against Maverick and Goblins though.
Spell Pierce – Extra counterspells for the mirror or combo

Sower of Temptation – This one’s a bit risky. Almost all decks pack removal nowadays and those who don’t usually try to end the game in the first few turns or don’t have creatures.

Meddling Mage – Fantastic against mid-range combodecks like Show&Tell, Hive Mind and the likes. This one’s also very versatile.

Vendilion Clique – Great sideboard card for control or combo match-ups.

Sample Decklist
The first appearance of the deck was Grand Prix Providence (2011-05-29). Owen Turtenwald’s version is the most common played version at the time.

U/W Stone-Blade
by Owen Turtenwald

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
3 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God


Matchups

Zoo
Pre-board: Zoo can get out to a very fast start so mitigating the life loss is very important until you can stick a Rhox War Monk or stabilize at all. The creatures you want to keep off the table are Grim Lavamancer, because it can take down every creature in the deck with exception of Tarmogoyf and RWM, and Knight of the Reliquary because it is bigger than everything. The matchup gets better for us as the turns go by, so lasting until the late game is key.

-4 Force of Will
-2 Vendilion Clique

+3 Path to Exile
+2 Umezawa’s Jitte
+1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

Force of Will is a fast answer to cards like Steppe Lynx and Wild Nacatl, but the card disadvantage and life loss isn’t worth it, and going down on cards that early is likely to not win you the game. Sideboarding also takes too many blue cards out of the deck to effectively have Force + blue card. Vendilion Clique is lackluster because of how weak it is defensively and it costs three. Path to Exile comes in as a quick answer to their fast beaters and as a way to get rid of their larger guys later on. Umezawa’s Jitte is the card advantage you want against them, eliminating multiple threats, countering their burn, and pumping our dudes to sizes bigger than theirs. Kira turns off their removal or makes it straight card disadvantage.

Post-board: The deck becomes packed with removal to slow them down. Jitte and Survival are too many targets for Grip as long as you can keep Qasali Pridemage from hitting one of them. Their clock becomes a lot slower when they sideboard hate in for Survival and with the deck having more cheap removal. It is a lot easier to setup, stick a few creatures, pick off their important ones, and take the advantage.

Merfolk
Pre-board: Merfolk beats you by hindering you enough so that it can drop Lord of Atlantis and have unblockable dudes. Fetching basics helps prevent this to negate their Wastelands. Most builds don’t run Stifle, but it is still wise to be careful of it and fetch at opportune times (i.e. when they are tapped out after Vial and end of their turn so that they have to leave mana open through their turn). Getting enough lands into play is not hard so play around Daze, which leaves them with only Force to counter all of your better cards. Swords, counter, or do whatever to keep Lord of Atlantis off the table. Doing all of this is hard when they have the disruption, the protection from Vial, and the card advantage from Standstill, but as long as you keep their weenies tiny they can’t do much.

-4 Standstill

+3 Path to Exile
+1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Accomplishments
Grand Prix Providence, Owen Turtenwald, Top8
Starcitygames Open Series: Indianapolis, Josn Guibault, Top8
Starcitygames Open Series: Denver, AJ Sacher, Top8
Starcitygames Open Series: Baltimore, David Shiels, Top4
Starcitygames Open Series: Baltimore, Ben Friedman, Top16

(only GP’s and SCG Opens are noted here. Source: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/111/page:1 )


Credits
Mossivo1986 and Jak for their help on structure of the primer

Edit: Ninja'd, but hope it helps

swarm187
07-12-2011, 04:58 PM
IsThisACatInAHat- Thank you for posting the primer! It was nicely written and gives people a lot to think about before posting here.
For what it's worth, I've been toying with an Esper version of this deck as well. I feel like a third color gives you a lot of versatility in games 2 and 3, as well as some answers that you may not have running just two colors...mainly EE for 3. Here's the list I'm running:

4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Standstill
4x Bitterblossom

4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm

1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Batterskull

1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor

3x Flooded Strand
1x Marsh Flats
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Island
1x Plains


Sideboard:
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Vindicate
1x Sword of Fire & Ice
1x Sword of Feast & Famine
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3x Misdirection


A few things about my list:
I know the manabase needs some work. While it is functional at this point, it needs some more basics. I have a hard time cutting the miser's Creeping Tar Pit, which is usually everyone's first choice to cut. The games where it comes down it has been worth it's weight in gold. Under a Standstill, it has won me several games almost completely by itself.
I understand that my manabase is fragile, and trust me, I am working on it.

Maindeck Bitterblossom was the one thing I wanted to add to this build. It seems like this is the perfect home for a card like Bitterblossom, and so far it has been doing very well. The problem it presents is that, with BB, every business spell in this deck cost 2. My curve is so congested at that spot, it makes games awkward at times.

Elspeth is the real deal. I always thought she was WAY too slow and clunky, but in a Standstill deck post Mental Misstep, she is everything you need your 4-drop to be and more. I have seriously debated running a 2/2 split with her and Jace, but without Bobs, I feel like I need an extra Jace.

The sideboard is pieced together at this point, but I have seen a lot of potential in Misdirection. The card is getting a lot of buzz lately because it can swing a game your way if you hit a Hymn to Tourach or some other discard spell. What I've found is that it can be crushing at every stage of the game, and often times, it leads to a scoop if you hit your opponent's key spell. I'm not sure if three is the right number, but you definitely want at least one in your opening 7 if you're boarding them in.


Some notable cards missing:
Dark Confidant: I'm still trying to put him in the sideboard. He belongs in here, and he can outpace just about anything if left unchecked. Maindeck, he's another 2-drop, so I'd have to cut Bitterblossoms for Bobs. I'm not saying I won't, but I'm not sure which works better in this type of Standstill list.

Perish: A sideboard superstar that lost out to Vindicate. Again, this may change, but for now I'm sticking with Vindicate as a catch-all alongside EE.

Daze: I feel like Daze doesn't have a home here as long as I'm running a full set of Mental Misstep. Daze was in my first few builds of this deck, but it always felt a little too clunky and narrow. I am starting to think about cutting my Mental Missteps down by one, but I still don't think Daze will make it back in.

Crucible of Worlds: Being a little light on land, I understand the value of Crucible in a format filled with Wastelands. I feel like this card has a ton of value, but soaks up too much time. I may be wrong, but I've been okay without it in this list so far. It may end up going back in as a singleton if the Wastelands get too ridiculous though.



Some Cards That Are Still In Contention:
Echoing Truth: I can't speak enough about how many times that card has saved my ass, and I feel like it will find a few sideboard slots in here eventually. It's just too good against the aggro decks that try to boat race your Standstills.

Ethersworn Canonist: This card is a sexy pick in a lot of U/W Standstill sideboards, and for good reason. Sometimes making your opponent jump through hoops is the best way to cut them right out of the game. This may find its way back into my list soon.

Scordata
07-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Wow - 2 primers in 1 thread?

I think Isthisacatinthehat hit the nail on the head with this one. That having been said, the intro could be flushed out a bit, but I'm just nickpicking. Tom T just so happened to solve that issue, however. Maybe they can be merged?

Kuddos to both of you, but I think Dr Seuss' legacy avatar beat him to the punch - it's more detailed, and well thought out.

Nihil Credo
07-12-2011, 08:50 PM
Yes, TooManyDamnCapsInHisName's primer was much more informative so I went with that. But all contributions are appreciated nevertheless :)

Hanni
07-12-2011, 09:01 PM
I disagree with Dr. Seuss' assessment of Jace before and after Mental Misstep seeing print, but its a moot point as far as Blade Control itself is concerned. I also disagree that control was a dead archetype before Mental Misstep; hype and popularity contribute as much to deck performance as a deck being really good.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-13-2011, 02:19 AM
I disagree with Dr. Seuss' assessment of Jace before and after Mental Misstep seeing print, but its a moot point as far as Blade Control itself is concerned. I also disagree that control was a dead archetype before Mental Misstep; hype and popularity contribute as much to deck performance as a deck being really good.
The primer is a work-in-progress. I didn't really intend to write it, but for fear of having to write a business plan that I actually did have to do, I just started and didn't stop until I was mostly finished. If you're willing to voice your proposed solutions to parts you disagree with (and this goes for anyone else), I will do what I can when I revise to include feedback. Since I've apparently taken it upon myself to write such a huge document, I do earnestly appreciate comments, criticisms, etc. but even more than any of that, value solutions. Even if I personally disagree, I will endeavor to paint as unbiased a picture as possible so the primer is not just representative of my personal views.

Hanni
07-13-2011, 02:56 AM
The primer is a work-in-progress. I didn't really intend to write it, but for fear of having to write a business plan that I actually did have to do, I just started and didn't stop until I was mostly finished. If you're willing to voice your proposed solutions to parts you disagree with (and this goes for anyone else), I will do what I can when I revise to include feedback. Since I've apparently taken it upon myself to write such a huge document, I do earnestly appreciate comments, criticisms, etc. but even more than any of that, value solutions. Even if I personally disagree, I will endeavor to paint as unbiased a picture as possible so the primer is not just representative of my personal views.


I think your primer was good, it included what needed to be included in regards to Blade Control, for the most part. I've already outlined my biggest issues with the primer, i.e the history lesson regarding Jace TMS and Control decks in general is a little off. That doesn't affect the important components of the primer, though.

There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite. 8 non-basics that do not tap for colored mana weaken the manabase far more than splashing for a third color. I also think that a color splash is easily do-able, and there are many benefits to doing so. Personally, I prefer to stay straight U/W for the rock solid manabase, but there is definitely an allure to splashing a 3rd color.

This deck is very customizable. As a U/W Control deck, there are tons of ways to build it. Some builds may want to go a with a more Speedstill approach with Spell Snare and Path to Exile, others may opt to go the CounterTop route, etc. I see no mention of CounterTop in your primer, but that's not a big deal, since the majority aren't going that route anyway.

Overall though, great primer. My issues with it are small; nothing important enough to ask you to change anything.

paK0
07-13-2011, 11:52 AM
So, I picked up the deck and really like ti so far.

The change I (and as I see) lots of other people have made is cutting the Dazes and playing some hardcounters (often Spell Snare) in their spots.

Has anyone some data on weather Daze or Spell Snare/CS are better and how they play out with Standstill and AV? Generally I like the Snares, but being able to tap down for Stoneforge on turn 2 and still having counter-backup seems nice as well. Help appreciated =)

crovakiet
07-13-2011, 02:24 PM
I think your primer was good, it included what needed to be included in regards to Blade Control, for the most part. I've already outlined my biggest issues with the primer, i.e the history lesson regarding Jace TMS and Control decks in general is a little off. That doesn't affect the important components of the primer, though.

There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite. 8 non-basics that do not tap for colored mana weaken the manabase far more than splashing for a third color. I also think that a color splash is easily do-able, and there are many benefits to doing so. Personally, I prefer to stay straight U/W for the rock solid manabase, but there is definitely an allure to splashing a 3rd color.

This deck is very customizable. As a U/W Control deck, there are tons of ways to build it. Some builds may want to go a with a more Speedstill approach with Spell Snare and Path to Exile, others may opt to go the CounterTop route, etc. I see no mention of CounterTop in your primer, but that's not a big deal, since the majority aren't going that route anyway.

Overall though, great primer. My issues with it are small; nothing important enough to ask you to change anything.

Pretty sure he included wasteland/mishra's factory in the uw 'shell' due to the number of uw stoneblade lists placing in SCG tournaments etc that were all running some sort of combination of wasteland and/or mishra's factories. Who's to argue with results?

swarm187
07-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Hanni- I doubt there is anyone on this forum that I respect more when it comes to deck design than you. With that said, I have to disagree with your stance on Wasteland/Mishra's Factory...at least to a certain degree.

Wasteland is a crucial part of the early game in almost every single matchup. If you're playing a deck that has a critical turn of 3 or 4, Wasteland almost always gives you the ability to camp your counterspells for that turn or keep them off their mana long enough for your permanent-based control elements (Standstill/Stoneforge) to lock them down. I feel like taking Wasteland out, while giving you space to sure up your manabase, would definitely hurt the deck's potency in the early turns.

Mishra's Factory is a little less manditory IMO, but it's still a staple in this deck. I can see dropping one for an in-color land, but I still feel like you should have some of these maindecked. They get around mass-removal, they operate under Standstill, and they can carry a Batterskull in the absolute worst-case scenario. If nothing else, Factories put your opponent on a clock once you've plopped a Standstill, even if it's really early in the game.

Take it for what you will, as I haven't played this thing at a large event. As I said before, I always look to Hanni for sage advice when it comes to building decks like this. I just happen to disagree with you in this instance.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-14-2011, 02:29 AM
IsThisACatInAHat- Thank you for posting the primer! It was nicely written and gives people a lot to think about before posting here.
For what it's worth, I've been toying with an Esper version of this deck as well. I feel like a third color gives you a lot of versatility in games 2 and 3, as well as some answers that you may not have running just two colors...mainly EE for 3. Here's the list I'm running:
To be honest, I really don't like either of the splashes (though I tried to leave that out of the primer, I think it's pretty evident). There's only one really good argument I've heard in favor of it and that's "more colors= more options." In a format about options and information (credit to Scordata for that one), more colors will supposedly open more doors for the deck to develop. Usually hand-in-hand with this is the rhetoric that color splashing comes at little to no cost in eternal formats.

The problem I really have with either of these statements is that often, there are perfectly acceptable, sometimes even better cards in colors you're already playing. As well, the cost of splashing is very real when you consider that Wasteland exists, it can be played in any deck and it's often the 2nd or 3rd most commonly occuring card in top 8/16s, behind Force of Will and interchangeably ahead of/behind Brainstorm. Splashing also reduces the number of basics you can play (again Wasteland, but also Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc.) and just as importantly, the number of utility lands you can play. Wasteland is just a really, really fucking good card. I love that card when I have it, hate that card when my opponents have it. Playing a manabase that can support it is just awesome against every deck. Even monocolor decks run nonbasics.

As for options, what do you really gain by adding black or red? To be fair, black is more defensible than red because the red splash runs Grim Lavamancer (meh), Red Blasts (meh) and Magus of the Moon (wtf?). With black, you have Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Perish and EE. But...

Is Confidant really better than Vision or Standstill? You've got few enough targets already for their removal, why take out a difficult-to-answer spell for a delicate 1-toughness creature? Don't get me wrong; I love bob. He's the best creature ever printed and my second favorite. But a whole color for him? When you could just have Vision?

Bitterblossom is a card that sounds good, seems good and in lower-powered formats, is good. Spellstutter Sprite was always awesome because it's a 2-for-1. Except in Legacy, when the second half of your "2" is a 1/1, you realize it's really closer to a 1-for-1 with a restrictive condition attached. The same goes for Bitterblossom, except you don't even get Jitte or something cheap to equip to make it worth the trouble and Batterskull comes with its own guy. Sure it blocks goyf/ knight all day, but then you're literally running Forcefield. Forcefield.

Perish is fine, but you do also have access to Wrath. The lesser cost is significant, but Zoo and Maverick (the matchups where it's good) run a handful of creatures that are unaffected and it's completely dead against Merfolk and Goblins (where you might want it). And still, Wrath.

Lastly, EE. I'm not sure I understand the continued fascination with this card. I wish I could find Alix Hatfield's quote about it when it first came out. Something along the lines of, "this is the most overpriced piece of crap removal that Legacy players have ever jizzed themselves over." Its defenders cite versatility, but when you don't need to sidestep Counterbalance anymore, why not just play any of the billion spells that are infinitely better? I'd honestly rather have Repeal than this, but I'm personally choosing to max out StP/Path instead (Dismember without splashing is also fine).


There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite.
Let's be fair; Wasteland is not a spell, it's a land. It produces mana. It just so happens that you have the option to screw them off of a color or utility land if the opportunity provides itself (as it usually does). This misconception that Wasteland needs to be used for its land destruction ability the second it comes down really doesn't make sense. For a mana-intensive deck, you are perfectly justified paying costs of spells with Wasteland's mana.

Having the option to use extra land to disrupt your opponent when you're done using it for mana is an excellent aside, though. Think about it this way: let's say every nonland card in your deck could be played as a colorless source. How insane would that be? Mana when you need it, spell when you don't. That is literally what Factory and Wasteland are. Sure you still need some colored sources, but lands that become spells interchangeably when you need them to are really quite awesome.

BantFTW
07-14-2011, 06:00 AM
What are bad matchups of this deck?
Things that go fast I suppose? Zoo, gobblins, affinity ?

Let me know ty :)

BantFTW
07-14-2011, 06:00 AM
What are bad matchups of this deck?
Things that go fast I suppose? Zoo, gobblins, affinity ?

Let me know ty :)

Iron Buddha
07-14-2011, 08:41 AM
I think Wasteland is only good in slow control decks because it kills Mutavault.

crovakiet
07-14-2011, 02:38 PM
What are bad matchups of this deck?
Things that go fast I suppose? Zoo, gobblins, affinity ?

Let me know ty :)

Look at the SCG Articles below, most recent is at the top:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22293_Too_Much_Information_Baltimore_Legacy_Open.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22153_Too_Much_Information_Indianapolis_And_Denver_Legacy_Opens_The_Invitational.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22134_Too_Much_Information_Grand_Prix_Providence.html

If the Hatfield(s) analyses are to be believed, as you go through the beginning of when U/W Stoneblade entered the legacy meta to the latest SCG in Baltimore, U/W Stoneblade has shored up its matchup with Zoo, Affinity and other aggro decks close to and past 50% (depending on deck) where in the beginning it had a paltry 30%, especially against Zoo. This may be due of course to suboptimal beginning decklists, and then tuning the deck from there with lessons learned as each tournament came and went. From that same analyses, U/W Stoneblade also has slightly favorable matchups with a lot of the top decks in the current metagame such as Merfolk. This may just be due to Batterskull and not taking into account whether Merfolk has adapted since then with Dismember in the main and/or the board.
U/W Stoneblade biggest weakness thus far has been poor showings against NO RUG but this may also be due to the low number of players actually playing NO RUG and thus the UW Stoneblade pilot not preparing their sideboard for it as a consequence.

All in all, it will be interesting to see what comes out of this weekend's SCG legacy in Cinn. During playtesting U/W Stoneblade, its fairly weak to certain combo matchups like Tide and its ilk so maybe its time for some sort of Solidarity/Spiral Tide etc to come out o the woodwork to prey on the metagame like Aggro Loam did in SCG Baltimore.

dahcmai
07-14-2011, 05:34 PM
I'd really like to see a list that shored up it's Zoo matches. I'm having problems with mine against that deck and I'd like to know what they did. It would save me some brainstorming sessions.

menace13
07-14-2011, 05:59 PM
I'd really like to see a list that shored up it's Zoo matches. I'm having problems with mine against that deck and I'd like to know what they did. It would save me some brainstorming sessions.
8 StP/PtE post board and some number of WoGs seems to be in most of the Blade lists(UW). That should hold zoo off. Snare is also good there against Pridemage.

BantFTW
07-15-2011, 06:43 AM
maybe ghostyle prison could be an sideboard option to for gobblins, zoo dredge??
You play white and they can't pay it (I'm a zoo player btw) Maybe if I got 2 creatures I can pay for 2 but not more mostly^^

Hanni
07-15-2011, 06:29 PM
@ Mishra's Factory and Wasteland

I may have been too aggressive with my post regarding these lands.

In a deck with only single colored cost requirements, these lands work pretty well. They tap for colorless mana, which can be used to cast spells.

However, my point regarding Wasteland is that you should be trying to make consistent land drops; Jace costs 4 mana, and hardcast Batterskull costs 5 mana (which will occur in a control deck with such a light creature base). If you are aggressively attacking the opponents manabase with Wasteland, you are setting yourself back a land drop. This gets even worse for those lists running Wasteland and Daze.

Mishra's Factory on the other hand, not only opens up your manabase to opposing Wasteland's, it also opens it up to opposing removal.

With 1/3 of your lands tapping for colorless mana, it's very possible that you draw a colorless heavy land draw early, and your deck literally screws itself. This has happened to me countless times when I used to play U/W Landstill. The fact is, playing a 3 color manabase without Mishra's Factory or Wasteland has a far more stable manabase than a 2 color manabase with 4/4 Factory/Waste, because it has more colored sources.

In a Blade Control list like Gerry T's, which is alot more tempo-oriented, akin to an aggro/control deck, I can see the justification for Factory/Waste/Daze. In the lists where people are playing more than 2 Jace TMS, Wrath of God, etc... it baffles me to see Factory/Waste being used without question. However, Gerry T does run 4 Jaces... and if he was using using Wasteland and Daze aggressively, I wonder what the average turn his Jace's came into play, even moreso against decks with opposing Wastelands. Turn 8? Meanwhile, with 4 Jace, his hand is clogged with spells begging to be pitched to Force of Will...

..at any rate.

In the decklist I posted, I have significant color demands. Counterspell and Counterbalance want UU as early as turn two. Jace wants UU, Elspeth wants WW, and Shackles wants as many Islands as possible. The deck is built in a true U/W Control shell that wants to make consistent land drops up to and beyond turn 4. Factory/Waste, especially against opposing Wastes, is the absolute worst thing a decklist like the one I posted could do to its own manabase. The stable 7 basic manabase I posted, even with only 21 lands, works absolutely perfect.

I hope that settles some of the confusion about my last post.


I'd really like to see a list that shored up it's Zoo matches. I'm having problems with mine against that deck and I'd like to know what they did. It would save me some brainstorming sessions.


The list I posted has a good Zoo matchup, especially postboard. It has enough countermagic and removal to keep Zoo from doing much damage early, and has Countertop, Batterskull, and Shackles to lock the game out. Elspeth is also pretty good in this matchup too.

Koby
07-15-2011, 08:19 PM
I keep going back to Dust Bowl as a way to deal with problematic lands in the UWR shell. It's more succinct than Wasteland without hogging up 3-4 slots, and repeatable which is the focus. It can turn all the extra fetchlands into more destruction.

BantFTW
07-16-2011, 11:48 AM
U/W Blade Control

Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains

Creatures (4)
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (35)
2 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Mental Misstep
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Moat
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

This is your list right :)

Isn't the deck to slow, okay, lategame you can go shackles and stuff but you can't hold everything.
I just think this deck is to slow.
Also you only have one creature to play batterskull on, what if it get's killed then you only would have tokens from elspeth, is that enough?

These are just questions, didn't tested it.

Btw, peacekeeper sucks quite hard then would play 2x more moat/ghostly prisons or something...

Hanni
07-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Yes, the deck is going to be slow, considering it's a control deck. Swords, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will have you covered for turn 1, and this deck holds open UU for turn two for Counterspells without a problem. What does the deck need to be fast against? The deck still has the ability to put Batterskull into play on turn 3, or Countertop lock into play on turn 2, if you really need to race aggro or combo.

I've actually cut the Moat's from the sideboard for 2 Wrath of God, and 1 Pithing Needle for 1 Umezawa's Jitte, but those are small changes.

Why do I need a creature to attach Batterskull to? Batterskull itself is a 0/0 Germ token. If a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink isn't enough for you, then yes, you can attach it to a 1/1 Elspeth token, a creature that you stole with Shackles, a topdecked SFM, or another Batterskull (w/ Germ token). I don't get what the issue is here.

Also, why does Peacekeeper suck quite hard? Peacekeeper is so insanely good against so many decks. Any deck with very light or no removal has huge issues with Peacekeeper. A resolved Peacekeeper is usually gg against a large chunk of the format.

Maybe some people don't enjoy playing slow control decks, and would prefer to play a faster aggro/control list, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean that a slower control deck isn't effective.

BantFTW
07-16-2011, 12:44 PM
yeah the batterskull I was wrong lol sorry
But peacekeeper, every deck has enough removal to kill it mostly.
If you play that or moat, I think moat/ghostly is harder to get away from for other decks then a creature :O?

Hanni
07-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Here's a list of decks to consider:

G/W Maverick
Elves
Affinity
Merfolk
Show and Sneak
Reanimator
Bant Aggro (w/ or w/ out NO/Pro)

There's more, but that's a pretty good list already.

Even if Peacekeeper does end up getting removed, it usually is able to buy you plenty of turns. If this deck is given the time to get SFM/Batterskull out, CounterTop, Planeswalker's, and/or Shackles into play, the opponent is usually done for regardless if they finally find a Swords to Plowshares.

It's also in the sideboard. It's not like your bringing it in against Junk, Zoo, or Goblins.

BantFTW
07-16-2011, 12:57 PM
Yeah oké that's true but just you need some options against the faster decks so that's what I'm thinking off :)

Hanni
07-17-2011, 11:18 AM
After having the chance to playtest against Goblins recently, I was able to come up with a fairly good sideboarding plan with my decklist.

My sideboard plan vs Goblins:

-4 Counterbalance
-4 Force of Will
-1 Batterskull
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Wrath of God
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

I've been wanting the 3rd Pithing Needle in the board, and I could easily cut a Peacekeeper to fit it, but I'm not sure what I'd want to cut from my maindeck to fit it in postboard (vs Goblins).

Anyway, the plan here is that I really don't want to be 2-for-1'ing myself against Goblins with FoW, and Counterbalance sucks in this matchup. On the draw, I still have 7 answers to turn 1 Lackey, with 9 answers to turn 1 Vial. On the play, I go up to 15 answers to turn 1 Lackey. Without Vial, Meddling Mage can name key Goblins like Warren Weirding, Goblin Matron, and Goblin Ringleader. The extra body is extremely valuable. Between 4/4/2/1 SFM/Mage/Elspeth/Batterskull, I have should have enough bodies to get an active Jitte going. In playtesting, I've won several games against Goblins with an active Jitte.

Needle is huge in this matchup. Shutting down Vial is good, but it can also shut down Gempalm Incinerator, Siege Gang Bang, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Sharpshooter, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port. Wrath of God gives me a nice reset button for the midgame, which when combined with either Shackles, Elspeth, Batterskull, or Jitte, usually puts me in a really good spot.

serendib
07-17-2011, 11:47 AM
Are you sure you don't want batterskull vs goblins in game 2 ???
I personally wouldn't take it out.

Theonlyone
07-17-2011, 11:55 AM
Hello, I'm new with the deck and wanted to know how was the MU against TES and A.N.T.? Do you have some tipps to win against them?

Hanni
07-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Are you sure you don't want batterskull vs goblins in game 2 ???
I personally wouldn't take it out.

I'm running 2 maindeck Batterskulls. So yes, I think cutting 1 for 1 Jitte is the right call.


Hello, I'm new with the deck and wanted to know how was the MU against TES and A.N.T.? Do you have some tipps to win against them?

Depends on your build.

In my list, I run Misstep, Counterspell, FoW, and CounterTop. Meddling Mages come in postboard, further improving the matchup. An early Batterskull can help get you out of Tendrils range, as well as stabilize against EtW tokens. WoG and Peacekeeper can also come in postboard to deal with EtW tokens vs TES, if you feel you need them. My combo matchup is really good.

I cannot comment on the other builds, as I have not playtested with them, but the loss of CounterTop hurts the combo matchup considerably.

lordofthepit
07-18-2011, 02:41 AM
For those of you running Ancestral Visions or Standstill, against which matchups do you side them out?

Merfolk and Goblins seem like an obvious reason to board out Standstill. Possibly Zoo too.

Ancestral Visions seems less matchup dependent, but seems like an easy "side out" against anything with Stifles or Standstills. Possibly also too slow against faster combo decks?

lorddotm
07-18-2011, 03:07 AM
I cannot comment on the other builds, as I have not playtested with them, but the loss of CounterTop hurts the combo matchup considerably.

You're wrong. It is still easy.


For those of you running Ancestral Visions or Standstill, against which matchups do you side them out?

Merfolk and Goblins seem like an obvious reason to board out Standstill. Possibly Zoo too.

Ancestral Visions seems less matchup dependent, but seems like an easy "side out" against anything with Stifles or Standstills. Possibly also too slow against faster combo decks?

I take out Standstills against nongreen aggro decks. Submerge is the nuts against green, and Submerge is the nuts with Standstill, so logic.

I'll finally post my list. I just top 8'd a local tournament with it. It was awesome.

Creatures [7]
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [19]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments [4]
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers [4]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [3]
2 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sorceries [1]
1 Wrath of God

Lands [23]
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswpet Heath
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard [15]
3 Submerge
2 Wrath of God
2 Spell Pierce
2 Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki
1 Crucible
1 Disenchant

The one thing I would like to improve is the Blue mirror. Any suggestions (also, what do you take out in the mirror match?)

rancOr_
07-18-2011, 09:37 AM
I play UW with 1volcanic MD and a mountain side. REB is great for one of ur weakest mu's- Hive Mind and helps alot in the mirror.

lorddotm
07-18-2011, 04:22 PM
Adding a 60th card would do wonders for all your matchups. I'd run the 24th land or 4th Jace in its spot, both of which are great against blue decks. You could also switch the ancillary Batterskull to a Sword, since they're all better than Batterskull against blue. I would also add back a 4th Clique to the board (I run 3 Cliques main as well), which is usually the only card I side in against the actual mirror. Depending on my board that day, Elspeth or Manriki also come in, but the deck feels like it's already pre-sided against U/x control, including SFM decks.

Fixed.

The thing about the Sword, is that the issue is my SFM dying, not Batterskull not being good. If SFM dies, I don't have a creature, and that is a problem. I might try Sword of Body and Mind though, and drop a WoG or something in the board for the 2nd Batterskull.

Is the 4th Clique better than the 2nd Crucible?

kiwi
07-18-2011, 04:29 PM
The one thing I would like to improve is the Blue mirror. Any suggestions (also, what do you take out in the mirror match?)

Playing Ancestral visions in main deck rather than Standstill.

lorddotm
07-18-2011, 05:11 PM
Playing Ancestral visions in main deck rather than Standstill.

Definitely not going to happen. There is combo aplenty in LA, and Standstill can randomly be Timewalk+Recall instead of just Recall.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-18-2011, 06:18 PM
Fixed.

The thing about the Sword, is that the issue is my SFM dying, not Batterskull not being good. If SFM dies, I don't have a creature, and that is a problem. I might try Sword of Body and Mind though, and drop a WoG or something in the board for the 2nd Batterskull.

Is the 4th Clique better than the 2nd Crucible?
Needing a creature doesn't hugely bother me against blue decks (I main SoBM). It presents the dilemma of keeping in cards that are bad against you (creature removal) to prevent Sword hits or siding them out and basically guaranteeing taking Sword hits for g2/3. In g1, hitting with SoBM is like a slam dunk, since few/none of the SFM lists I see maindeck sweepers, so the extra body compounds the strain on their spot removal (as does 3 Cliques to their usually 1 or 0). I like pro-blue Swords for this reason, since they remove everything but Germs and StP from the equation.

If it's any indication, I almost always fetch SoBM first and choose not to side the second Batterskull in. It's not a wasted slot, it's just that life isn't a vital resource in blue control mirrors so having extras isn't a thing for me. Stranding Batterskull in my hand until I can hardcast it/ find another SFM is the same to me as stranding a SoBM on the table, except when I hit with SoBM, I'm getting significant value and when I hit with Batterskull, both my opponent and I are like, "meh."

As for Clique #4 or Crucible #2, I don't maindeck Crucible and only run 1 in the board, so for me the answer would be yes. Crucible is fine, but Clique is like Jace in that every time I lose one, I always want another and Crucible was almost always the card I was least happy to see, especially in game 1s. When I read that PV didn't like it either, I felt more vindicated removing it rather than keeping it in "in case I'm wrong."

sdefreit8
07-18-2011, 06:30 PM
Hey guys I've recently been transfering from landstill to blade control and it's been a blast. I really like the UW builds similar to Lorddotm. Something I've been testing recently that I have LOVED is Elspeth. Jace is of course amazing, but this deck wants bodies to put equipment on. Elspeth provides infinited bodies and can even pump + fly tokens over while holding a sword. Swinging with a 9/9 vig, lifesteal, pro blue/green germ can also be fun to just shut ppl down in the late game.

I have been running a 2/2 split on Jace/Els and don't see myself going back to only Jaces.

lorddotm
07-18-2011, 09:57 PM
Needing a creature doesn't hugely bother me against blue decks (I main SoBM). It presents the dilemma of keeping in cards that are bad against you (creature removal) to prevent Sword hits or siding them out and basically guaranteeing taking Sword hits for g2/3. In g1, hitting with SoBM is like a slam dunk, since few/none of the SFM lists I see maindeck sweepers, so the extra body compounds the strain on their spot removal (as does 3 Cliques to their usually 1 or 0). I like pro-blue Swords for this reason, since they remove everything but Germs and StP from the equation.

If it's any indication, I almost always fetch SoBM first and choose not to side the second Batterskull in. It's not a wasted slot, it's just that life isn't a vital resource in blue control mirrors so having extras isn't a thing for me. Stranding Batterskull in my hand until I can hardcast it/ find another SFM is the same to me as stranding a SoBM on the table, except when I hit with SoBM, I'm getting significant value and when I hit with Batterskull, both my opponent and I are like, "meh."

I will try it out then.


As for Clique #4 or Crucible #2, I don't maindeck Crucible and only run 1 in the board, so for me the answer would be yes. Crucible is fine, but Clique is like Jace in that every time I lose one, I always want another and Crucible was almost always the card I was least happy to see, especially in game 1s. When I read that PV didn't like it either, I felt more vindicated removing it rather than keeping it in "in case I'm wrong."

Can you post your list for reference? The Crucible has been pretty good for me, Wastelocking has won me a fair number of games against BUG and NO RUG and other unstable decks.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-18-2011, 11:13 PM
For reference, I'm playing

4 SFM, 3 Clique
4 BS, FoW, MM, StP
3 Snare
4 Vision, Jace
1 Batterskull, SoBM
3 Island, 1 Plains
4 Strand, Delta, Tundra, Factory, Waste

The last slot essentially came down to Clique or Crucible and I went with Clique because it's good against everything Crucible is, but better in many other matchups. Part of the reason I began playing this deck instead of BUGstill is because of how strong it was in the heads-up. I lost what seemed like a large majority of games, both in testing and sanctioned play, despite (in my opinion) significantly outplaying my opponents. Crucible lock was just a wash anyway when I had active Loam to stall into Deed.

My experiences are obviously anecdotal, but I think I (and most) like the idea of Crucible more than I like Crucible. Sometimes it just wins and you're like "fuck yeah." Most of them time I draw it, though, I have to wonder if it isn't just win-more. I don't cut it entirely because a copy in the board is still fine, but it's rarely a card I want to see more than any other good card in my deck. It's not even a must-counter for 2-color decks with enough basics to operate, but Clique remains one of the cards they least want to see (which I know because it's one of the cards I least want to see across from me).

lorddotm
07-18-2011, 11:31 PM
You have a Tundra where I have a Crucible. I don't see that as an issue.

Any interesting reasons for Visions over Standstill, or are you in the Standstill is horrible party?

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-19-2011, 01:43 AM
I play to my meta. Vision began as Standstill, but I live in NYC where the Legacy community is badly underdeveloped so there are lots of AEther Vials. When I go to Vestal, it's also very blue. I still carry a sleeved set of Standstills along with my alternate sideboard cards to SCG events, in case I see other decks, but in the interim, Vision is much better here.

lorddotm
07-19-2011, 02:13 AM
I play to my meta. Vision began as Standstill, but I live in NYC where the Legacy community is badly underdeveloped so there are lots of AEther Vials. When I go to Vestal, it's also very blue. I still carry a sleeved set of Standstills along with my alternate sideboard cards to SCG events, in case I see other decks, but in the interim, Vision is much better here.

Am I the only one who likes Standstill against Visions decks?

gypsy
07-19-2011, 05:07 AM
standstill is good against visions yes, but standstill is just meh and forces you to board out your card draw engine, while you never board out visions.

which sword do u guys prefer? body and mind or feast and famine?

my list is pretty much identical to IsThisACatInAHat?s list, just wondering what your sb was? I want to play a 3rd equipment sb but not sure wats the best one to play, ive seen jittes, 2nd batterskull, diff sword etc.

lorddotm
07-19-2011, 05:51 AM
standstill is good against visions yes, but standstill is just meh and forces you to board out your card draw engine, while you never board out visions.

which sword do u guys prefer? body and mind or feast and famine?

my list is pretty much identical to IsThisACatInAHat?s list, just wondering what your sb was? I want to play a 3rd equipment sb but not sure wats the best one to play, ive seen jittes, 2nd batterskull, diff sword etc.

I'm totally fine with boarding out Standstill against Merfolk, I would rather rely on stick and protecting a Stoneforge Mystic. Also, Wraths are more than enough card advantage in that match up.

IsThisACatInAHat?
07-20-2011, 12:50 AM
Am I the only one who likes Standstill against Visions decks?
Maybe not, but I prefer to Vision against Standstill decks. In a game of who has the most (and most relevant) cards, I prefer Vision because it's harder to counter (which matters a lot to me) and I don't run the risk of my opponent playing under it better than I do. Even assuming they resolve Standstill and I'm forced to break it because they stuck it with Vision @1, that's about the best way I can think of to break it: untapped and with my own draw-3 on the stack. I still side it out a lot of times against Vial decks because I need the space, but Vision is actually a really good card right now. When I stop hating Standstills in my hand, they'll come back in.

crovakiet
07-20-2011, 04:32 AM
I play the traditional Blade Control list with standstill, 1x crucible instead of 1x clique, and karakas instead of the 3rd basic island. Also 4 Jace instead of 3/1 or 2/2 split with Elspeth Errant. I run the standard counterspell suite of 4/4/3 FoW/Misstep/Snare. I find the NO RUG matchup pretty hard game 1 and after boarding it is still difficult especially when they can be running 4+ blasts (ele/pyro) . A lot of times I wish that I had counterspell in hand instead of mental misstep/snare as leaning on Force of Will to counter natural order is hard especially when they run their own playset plus daze. And green sun's zenith usually dodges mental misstep/snare.

Anyone have a good sideboard for NO RUG as well as other variants while still being able to have good matchups against Dredge etc? Dredge will be making a comeback due to 2 lists making the top 16 in the last SCG open. NO RUG and co. made huge showings proving that the Hatfields analyses of the previous SCG(s) was correct in that Stoneblade seems to have a terrible matchup vs NO RUG/variants and also that no Stoneblade list made the top 16 at Cinc. Hell, only one control list even made the top 16 and it was mono blue...Of course, we don't know what the Cinc metagame consisted of but 7 of the top 16 decks were running Green Sun's Zenith and 4 of the 7 running NO. I am eager and somewhat scared to see what Seattle has in store coming off the Cinc event. NO RUG with JaceTMS is pretty scary in itself, especially ramping into one.

Anyway, rambling done. How should we shore up the NO and its variants matchup while keeping relatively even with the rest of the field? Is it possible that running our conditional counterspells like mental misstep and spell snare/pierce actually hurting us instead of playing real hard counters like the archaic standby 'counterspell'? Or just play more sweepers/humility which makes our creatures bad as well unless equipped?

lordofthepit
07-20-2011, 05:01 AM
Is the consensus that Standstill is better in an environment with non-Vial aggro and combo, and Ancestral Visions better for an environment with Vial aggro and the mirror?

crovakiet
07-20-2011, 05:59 AM
Is the consensus that Standstill is better in an environment with non-Vial aggro and combo, and Ancestral Visions better for an environment with Vial aggro and the mirror?

I only like vision(s) when playing against decks with vial and/or control decks playing only the conditional counterspell(s) like spell snare/misstep/daze/pierce since Force of Will is the only thing in those particular control decks that can 'hard' counter an Ancestral Visions once that last counter is off. Otherwise, I like standstill better against most everything else.

gypsy
07-20-2011, 06:07 AM
went 4-0 at my local weekly legacy event with this list

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sb
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
3 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Spell Pierce

was pretty happy with everything, I have loved Ancestral for years and I love being able to play it again and I wouldn't play Standstill over it ever.

@crovakiet

I tested a bit vs NO RUG and it is the hardest matchup ive faced with the deck, with only 4 forces I really missed Counterspell to deal with NO itself. One of the ways I was winning was instead of fitting over the actual NO, i just tried to kill all their guys, bringing in Paths and WOGs and just fought over theyre creatures and Zeniths and it was working better then trying to counter they're stuff when they are gonna bring in 4+ REB effects. As much as I like Counterspell I find it a little hard to reasonably play it with so many non blue lands, and I dont think you need it when your tapping out/low with cliqued/SFM compared to the UW No Mystic Control that I had played before

crovakiet
07-22-2011, 03:20 AM
Has anyone looked at the decklists from the Japan 2011 Legacy Nats found @ http://coverage.mtg-jp.com/jpnats11/decklist/001891/

If you don't want to be looking at Japanese characters the top 8 is listed here:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6522

The deck I was particularly looking at/interested most in was the 2nd place U/W/G Blade Control...
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6522&iddeck=47236

Any thoughts? Does splashing green for Knight of the Reliquary + its ability to tutor utility lands (Karakas notably absent from that particular list) and Krosan Grip in the board worth it? Especially in light of the traditional U/W list?

Or maybe I shouldn't have even bothered posting this especially since the U/W/R version is not discussed in this thread due to their underlying difference(s)?

Kellyx
07-23-2011, 09:25 AM
Its an agro bant:Z.
Just a bit more defensive.
This deck doesnt have much to do with soneblade, tbh.

sdefreit8
07-24-2011, 01:37 AM
Hey guys I have an idea. I have messed with UW stoneblade and given that this is an equipment driven deck in a way, we want to find bodies to put the equipment on. SFM is obviously in the list, Cliques, and Bobs are other options depending on colors, but what do yall think about squadron hawk. They are cheap small, evasive bodies that you can put a stick on. And the card advantage given by running them negates our struggle to find a body if one dies to swords/GFTT etc.

They don't bring the same utility as clique, but they provide some great CA.

crovakiet
07-24-2011, 03:05 AM
Hey guys I have an idea. I have messed with UW stoneblade and given that this is an equipment driven deck in a way, we want to find bodies to put the equipment on. SFM is obviously in the list, Cliques, and Bobs are other options depending on colors, but what do yall think about squadron hawk. They are cheap small, evasive bodies that you can put a stick on. And the card advantage given by running them negates our struggle to find a body if one dies to swords/GFTT etc.

They don't bring the same utility as clique, but they provide some great CA.

The hawks were tried before and eventually became cliques...

sdefreit8
07-24-2011, 03:30 AM
But 2cmc makes them easier to cast and they are so good for CA. Mix them with brainstorms and fetches and its disgusting.

dahcmai
07-24-2011, 08:23 AM
Trust me, I tried them first and was actually playing both at one time. Remember that Caw Blade thread we had going for a bit. I slowly figured out that they just weren't worth it. If discard somehow got much better or mono-U control started back up in force they might be worth going back to because that brainstorm trick with them is very, very good.

The main problem with the hawks wasn't the CA, it was the fact that they just aren't that scary without a sword. 1/1 flyer coming at you, ho hum... Sure it's nice to have back ups in hand, but the small amount of disruption that the Cliques provide and the much better clock just out classes the Hawks easily when there's no equipment present. You'll hate the hawks every time you get stuck without a sword. You never feel the same way with a Clique.

I think the main reason I ended up pulling the hawks was the clock though. Cliques are excellent against other control decks since they just snap in and start punching in the face. You find yourself in the position to go late game so often against control and a Clique becomes gold. Hawks are meh during that time.

RainbowPenguin
07-26-2011, 05:35 PM
Well, first thing first: Greetings, Earthlings.

Sorry if this is going to be another one of those I-dunno-anything-but-have-you-tried-Squire-seems-good-kthanx-posts (no, I'm not attacking you, sdefreit8), but I haven't actually gotten the deck together quite yet, so this will all be theory.

1) It has been suggested that the zoo matchup might be bad, because so much of the zoo deck doubles as an answer to stoneforge/batterskull. I guess it doesn't help things that zoo can bring in Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge, either. I was wondering if sideboarding into into a more traditional hard control deck could be the answer? Its not like 4 Mystic/2 equipment actually take up that much space.

2) How necessary are wastelands and manlands without Standstill? It seems like the discussion of Standstill vs. Visions is just that, mostly - about those two cards only, when it should probably be about a number of other cards too. With Standstill, you need those manlands, and probably wastelands too, or else more manlands. But in the normal scheme of things, how badly does a fairly mana-hungry control deck really need wastelands? Again, I can't say I have tested this, or that I have an LSV-level understanding of MtG, but I'm still fairly certain Wasteland is better in my Merfolk deck than it will be in Ancestral Visions-Blade Control (which I'm leaning against). Cutting some or all of the wastelands would open space for other utility lands, a splash, or just a rock solid U/W manabase.

The obligatory decklist(s):

The one that I would probably start out with, just to get a feel for the archetype:

U/W Blade Control

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

6 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

26 Other Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
2 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Counterspell
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Disenchant

Basically just - 1 wasteland, + 1 fetch.

A more experimental list, with the ability to board into a Superfriends-esque control deck with no good targets for Ancient Grudge, and with pyroblasts against Show and Tell/other combo decks:

24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

6 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

26 Other Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
2 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroblast
4 Relic of Progenitus

Both lists might need better/more answers to Choke, and a Pithing Needle or two. The second list can't really do anything about Tower of the Magistrate, but that card is probably only going to show up in Knight of the Reliquary decks, where the Superfriends plan should be fine.

Best regards,
Christian

crovakiet
07-26-2011, 10:16 PM
Judging from the most recent SCG tournaments UW Blade Control needs to shore up the NO RUG matchup as well as the Hive Mind and/or Show matchup. UW Blade Control is very bad game 1 vs. Hivemind/Show unless you get lucky and continually waste their ramp and/or Clique when they have the key(s) in hand. Honestly, if SCG Pittsburgh shows a bunch of Hivemind/NoRug/Show winning, UW Blade Control is not a DTB anymore...UWR Blade Control may just be better due to having access to the Red blast(s)

obituary 95
07-27-2011, 12:28 AM
I know in the second place deck at last scg event there were 4 dazes in the main deck. and he used them to attack hivemind. Maybe this deck should have dazes again

Final Fortune
07-27-2011, 02:44 AM
You can shore up Hive Mind and NO SHO with SB Meddling Mages or Spell Pierces, there's no need to /r for those match ups.

nukeme
08-02-2011, 11:17 PM
UWb Blade Control:
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
Lands:
1 Plains
1 Swamp
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Moat
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

This list has gone through many revisions, and I'd like critique on a couple of things:
1) Manabase - I've tried to make it more resilient, but cannot seem to find room for wastelands without being cold to color screw or a moon effect. I'd like any suggestions, and would like to fit in a couple more wastelands. I'm splashing black solely for x=3 on ee and confidants out of the board.
2) How to make the enlightened tutor toolbox more useful.
3) snare is used as a counter to goyfs, hymns, and other mystics. Should they be sideboarded?

I usually sideboard the situational countermagic out to put the more relevant etutor answers. Confidants help with control matchups.

RainbowPenguin
08-04-2011, 05:09 AM
1) Lets see:

23 Lands total. 6 fetches, 12 fetchable lands.
Coloured mana sources/Basic Land Sources:

Blue: 5+4+2+1+4 = 16 / 5+4+2 = 11
White: 1+4+2+4 = 11 / 1+4 = 5
Black: 1+4+2+1 = 8 / 1+2 = 3

First off, I would suggest cutting 2 Islands for 2 extra polluted deltas. This will increase the number of sources of white and black mana without diminishing your access to blue/basic island. And it is not like you will need the 4th or 5th basic island very often. We're talking about extremely corner cases here, like moon effect on turn one, on the play, or perhaps ghost quarter locking from lands.dec. Those are really, really rare situations, and you don't want to make your deck worse the remaining 98% of the time.
Yes, there is that Shackles in the board. One card. In the board. You would still have 8 islands to power it up, that should be enough.

Why would you run Confidants out of the board? I would maindeck them over the standstills (+1 other card), if I were to play them at all. Btw, without wastelands to back up you manlands, your standstills become quite a bit worse. If you don't want maindeck Bobs, exchange standstills with Visions.

Do you need Wasteland at all? When/against which decks do you want it? You already have Mystic, Batterskull, Jace (should probably be a 4-of), Foundry, Explosives, Academy Ruins and manlands, so your deck is quite mana intensive. Trading your landdrop on turn 1-4 for your opponent's isn't often going to be good for you, and any later will probably be irrelevant, except as an extra wincondition with Crucible against some decks.
If your meta includes problematic lands (Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate), I would cut the third Island (leaving you with 15/10 Blue sources, I guess that's okay) and a spell for two Wastelands or one Wasteland and one Dust Bowl. You could also run Pithing Needle against those cards. The takeaway is that yes, you cannot have your cake and eat it too (run three colours including basics, Wastelands and Factories).

2) Why isn't it useful? What do you want it to be useful against?

3) No.

nukeme
08-04-2011, 10:53 AM
1) It's just nice being able to tutor for a standstill whenever I have the superior board position. Confidants are a liability in the zoo or any fast matchup, particularly when you have multiple 4 and 5 drops in your deck and no top to filter these. If i put the confidants in the MD, I would include a top to be etutored for. I'd want to keep at least 1 standstill in the maindeck.

That's the conclusion that I came to with Wasteland.

2) I was thinking of any other utility artifact that I was forgetting. The moat doesn't seem very useful, and gets hit by k-grip, which this deck is weak to. I'm considering adding a canonist over the moat .

RainbowPenguin
08-05-2011, 05:57 AM
E Tutor is - 1 card. Standstill is + 2 cards. Tutor for Standstill is + 1 card. This is legacy, I think you can do better than that.

It is true that Confidant can be risky vs. fast aggro, but in such matchups, Standstill would actually just be dead at the same time. At least Confidant can block. If those matches come up often, Visions is probably better.

Dunno if this applies here, but it is very tempting when making a tutor sb, to just go for the most powerful hatecards ever printed, things that will just make certain decks scoop instantly. I think it is something of a trap, however. You basically want to swap out a card that hoses badly built aggro decks for another card, that hoses completely different decks? Give some thought to this: What do you actually need your sideboard for? Free wins are nice, but if you don't have a good reason to think that a certain deck is going to be a big presence at a given tournament, or that it will be very good against you, you just shouldn't pack narrow hate against it.

Rekk
08-07-2011, 01:58 AM
What is blade control to do against the new junk deck with living wish and hexmage. i went 3-1 at my local saturday night legacy. lost only to the new junk deck due to a mull to 5 and a horridness series of plays in game three. (i just played awful). Either way does anyone have any information that can help me beat this new breed of deck

RainbowPenguin
08-07-2011, 04:44 AM
What is blade control to do against the new junk deck with living wish and hexmage. i went 3-1 at my local saturday night legacy. lost only to the new junk deck due to a mull to 5 and a horridness series of plays in game three. (i just played awful). Either way does anyone have any information that can help me beat this new breed of deck

Get more lucky with your opening hands, play better? Seriously, I can't see why that deck should be harder to deal with than regular junk. Ignore whatever I may have said about cutting Wasteland, it's good here. So is Spell Snare. If you can force your opponent to go for Marit Lage on his turn or just chump with a Clique, you can bounce the token with Jace. If you feel you need anything special for this matchup, reasonably broad cards you might consider would be Stifle and Repeal (repealing mox diamond has to feel good). Karakas and Crucible with Waste/Karakas are also golden.

Rekk
08-07-2011, 12:35 PM
Get more lucky with your opening hands, play better? Seriously, I can't see why that deck should be harder to deal with than regular junk. Ignore whatever I may have said about cutting Wasteland, it's good here. So is Spell Snare. If you can force your opponent to go for Marit Lage on his turn or just chump with a Clique, you can bounce the token with Jace. If you feel you need anything special for this matchup, reasonably broad cards you might consider would be Stifle and Repeal (repealing mox diamond has to feel good). Karakas and Crucible with Waste/Karakas are also golden.

Thank you,
one more question on the matter is graveyard hate worth bringing in (due to loam knights and goyfs) or is it one of those things you bring in if you have nothing else.

RainbowPenguin
08-07-2011, 05:29 PM
You're welcome.

Honestly.. I don't know. I 'm not sure if there is any consensus list for Junk Depths, and even if there is, sideboards and sideboarding strategies are likely to be subject to individual choice to a large extent.
If you run Relic of Progenitus, bringing one or two in is okay, I guess, since it cantrips, and if they are leaning heavily on Loam (casting Entomb for Loam, using cycling lands, etc.), you might want to bring in Surgical Extraction/Extirpate (again, if you run it, which is certainly not obligatory). But if you feel that your maindeck cards are all live against that deck, I would just stick with those.
That's all theory, however. If you have the opportunity to experiment with the gravehate count against that deck, go for it! And don't forget to come back and tell the rest of us about it. :wink:

HokusSchmokus
08-08-2011, 04:27 AM
The most common lists over here now play - Wasteland - Mishra And play the Grove+Punishing Fire engine instead. Ajani Vengeant has been seen a lot , too. What do you think of it? like this for example http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6493&iddeck=47028

Recent results show the deck to be a serious powerhouse.

lorddotm
08-08-2011, 05:32 AM
The most common lists over here now play - Wasteland - Mishra And play the Grove+Punishing Fire engine instead. Ajani Vengeant has been seen a lot , too. What do you think of it? like this for example http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6493&iddeck=47028

Recent results show the deck to be a serious powerhouse.

What does Punishing Fire solve that Batterskull doesn't?

Is it enough against NO RUG?

HokusSchmokus
08-08-2011, 09:54 AM
It is indeed enough against NO RUG. Being able to kill every last one of their critters is a huge thing in this MU.It also shines against GW and Zoo. Merfolk not to mention...
The thing is that you don't always have a Batterskull. And even if you have some decks can either race you or destroy your good Old Schmetterschädel and then beat you down. If he even comes down. In my experience either SFM doesn't resolve or get's killed before you can put in anything. In my meta ppl upped the Clique-Count to beat SFM as well. It's just nice to have a way to ensure that you don't lose the game until your next Batterskull or SFM is there.

dahcmai
08-08-2011, 07:21 PM
I found a good card lately for the No Rug match up. Curfew allows you to go ahead and let them have the Projo and just requires you to kill whats left, then you strand it in their hand while you reuse something, oh.. like a Stoneforge.

He was using it in a different deck, but it seems like a nice choice for this one. Instant speed, 1cc, and has a beneficial effect on your own side is quite nice. You can use it to save Lavamancers (if you play red) and Cliques also all the while taking some steam out of the other side. I really, really like it so far. I reaplced my Phantasmal Images in the board for it since it serves the same purpose for killing Projo and emrakul. I like it enough that I might add it in main.

I'm starting to be a fan of that Grove/Punishing Fires thing. I don't like playing that many non-basics, but it's hard to argue with the power it brings. I like red for REB's anyway.

Mackan
08-10-2011, 02:07 AM
I see no reason to leave the UW-shell for either Bob or punishing fire... Just respect loam/grove/punishing fire with a lot of graveyard hate and bring path's to find bob/crusher/kotr/goyf/whatever. You have CA and withough a graveyard they don't. Same goes for the "new junk"...

sadakiyo
08-10-2011, 11:49 AM
Some noob questions:
Why some list pack daze and some other pack spell snare? What are these cards try to accomplish?
Thanks

RainbowPenguin
08-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Why do some lists pack daze, and some other lists pack spell snare? What are these cards trying to accomplish?


They are used to counter your opponent's spells. If you look at the OP, you will see that Owen Turtenwald actually ran some of both. I believe the consensus is that Blade Control should run 2-3 Spell Snare; there is less agreement when it comes to Daze.
This deck often runs several lands that don't produce blue mana, which makes something like Counterspell less desireable. Also, Spell Snare is just a really good counter in legacy, since the format is still quite fast, and there are many good spells with casting cost 2: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, Hymn to Tourach etc.
I think that this deck might have a too high curve to make good use of Daze. When you have 2-3 lands in play, and 1+ land and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in hand, it usually doesn't feel good to set yourself back a landdrop. However, Daze does hit more broadly than Snare, and it is especially good against the Hive Mind combo, since you can sometimes kill them with it.
It roughly works like this: They resolve Hive Mind, and then on their turn cast 1+ Pacts. You are required to copy these. If they cast one more pact than you can pay for, you will then die on your upkeep. However, if you have one land untapped and a Daze in hand, you can cast Daze on your copy of a Pact. They get a copy of Daze, but since you can pay the cost of Daze, they can't use their copy to counter your Daze. So on their upkeep, if they can't pay for the Pacts they resolved, they will lose.

So when different people run different numbers of these cards, that could be metagame decisions. It could also be that they use other cards to combat what these cards would be used against, or it could be that they prefer a particular play style that does not go well with these cards. Daze is bad if you are not playing fairly aggressively, for example.

Mackan
08-10-2011, 05:31 PM
They are used to counter your opponent's spells. If you look at the OP, you will see that Owen Turtenwald actually ran some of both. I believe the consensus is that Blade Control should run 2-3 Spell Snare; there is less agreement when it comes to Daze.
This deck often runs several lands that don't produce blue mana, which makes something like Counterspell less desireable. Also, Spell Snare is just a really good counter in legacy, since the format is still quite fast, and there are many good spells with casting cost 2: Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, Hymn to Tourach etc.
I think that this deck might have a too high curve to make good use of Daze. When you have 2-3 lands in play, and 1+ land and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in hand, it usually doesn't feel good to set yourself back a landdrop. However, Daze does hit more broadly than Snare, and it is especially good against the Hive Mind combo, since you can sometimes kill them with it.
It roughly works like this: They resolve Hive Mind, and then on their turn cast 1+ Pacts. You are required to copy these. If they cast one more pact than you can pay for, you will then die on your upkeep. However, if you have one land untapped and a Daze in hand, you can cast Daze on your copy of a Pact. They get a copy of Daze, but since you can pay the cost of Daze, they can't use their copy to counter your Daze. So on their upkeep, if they can't pay for the Pacts they resolved, they will lose.

So when different people run different numbers of these cards, that could be metagame decisions. It could also be that they use other cards to combat what these cards would be used against, or it could be that they prefer a particular play style that does not go well with these cards. Daze is bad if you are not playing fairly aggressively, for example.

Spellstutter sprite replaces Spell Snare in alot of builds.

sadakiyo
08-11-2011, 05:13 AM
Thanks for the explanation RainbowPenguin. I now see why ppl are packing spellsnare. Another question is: why 1 crucible??? is it that important that we re-play our dead lands?

RainbowPenguin
08-11-2011, 05:50 AM
why 1 crucible?

Not everybody runs it. It should probably not go in lists with no/only a few manlands and/or wastelands. Sometimes it can be very good, however:
- Some decks run 0-1 basic lands, so it is possible to "Waste-lock" these decks by returning Wasteland with Crucible over and over. If they have no mana, they can't cast spells, and they can't win.
- If you cast Standstill against another deck running Wastelands/manlands, you risk losing the battle under Standstill, but if you have Crucible out, your odds get much better (hence, Crucible gets better if you run Standstill, although it is still good with Visions).
- Thrun, the Last Troll can be a problem for some Blade Control lists. However, with Crucible, you can return a manland to block Thrun every turn.
- In general, in long, drawn-out control vs control games, replaying lands is in fact very good. You never miss a land drop, and over time, all those replayed lands just add up.

Since the second Crucible does nothing, most lists run 0-1 main, and no more than two total in their 75.

mdc1010
08-11-2011, 07:43 PM
The most common lists over here now play - Wasteland - Mishra And play the Grove+Punishing Fire engine instead. Ajani Vengeant has been seen a lot , too. What do you think of it? like this for example http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6493&iddeck=47028

Recent results show the deck to be a serious powerhouse.

I've been wanting to play Ajani Vengeant. I can't find any semi-proven list with him in it. Can you link me?

HokusSchmokus
08-12-2011, 02:01 AM
Monday maybe. After Legacy Nationals.
Thing is that the events I saw these decks were not reported. I believe it's a standard UWr list with Punishing Fire / Grove and 2 Jace 1 Elspeth 1 Ajani.
People in my town are preparing for a whole day of mirror matches tho. Latest tech is UW with Thopterfoundry combo.

Spartacvs
08-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Leonin Bola

Seriously. It wins equipment wars and also shuts down Show and Tell into Emrakul. I'm running this in my board from now on.

nukeme
08-15-2011, 08:14 PM
Manriki-Gusari
Wins equipment wars even harder. Spell pierces in the board along with your permission shut down show and tell.

BantFTW
08-16-2011, 12:17 PM
Want to try Manriki-Gusari in my list, exept, it doesn't do anything if the others don't got equipments lol :)
Lets see waht decks don't play equipments:

combo decks: ...
Goblins, dredge, some control (mostly not now :), junk,...

So quite alot decks play it, maybe something for sideboard :O?

Spartacvs
08-16-2011, 01:57 PM
I play Manriki and Leonin Bola in the side

Mackan
08-17-2011, 05:33 AM
Manriki has been so bad in testing you can't even imagine... Think it's "tech" for the mirror? what If they play theirs first? what if they play some kind of, I dunno... vedalken shackles, o-ring, thopter foundry, crucible of worlds or want to connect with batterskull and you don't have a creature for manriki? Go with disenchant.

Rekk
08-17-2011, 09:14 PM
So i am very very late in replying to this i have been a little busy.
As to what i discover against junk decks.
Graveyard hate is ok and all.
but the real killer was uping my spell snare count and bringing in misdirections.
makes their hymns either counterable or used on them. also their target removal hits their knights.
(also playing better did help.. who knew)

dahcmai
08-21-2011, 11:57 PM
Try Divert over Misdirection. You'll like it. I run a set of 4 in my board. Simply amazing vs some decks especially Rock.

MrShine
08-24-2011, 12:01 AM
Hey guys,

So I've been testing the list with Spellstutters, with good results so far. The only thing I'm not happy with at the moment is the post-board match-up against NO RUG. As far as I can tell, their plan against us is to board out NO/Prog, bringing in REB/Pyroblast, Grim Lavamancer (Particularly good vs the Faeries version) and Ancient Grudge. Basically, I'm looking for a way to blank their plan, starting with boarding OUT:

4 Stoneforge
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X and Y

to blank their grudges, with room for more stuff to come out too (maybe Jaces, for example). But what to bring in? The criteria is that the card in question be

A) a threat;
B) not blue, so as to avoid REB/Pyroblast;
C) not die to Grim Lavanancer;
and D) preferably have some kind of Evasion.

I'm already boarding in Wrath of God, and probably Elspeth too, as a means to beat the Goyf plan. Wrath is also extra insurance should they decide to leave in NO.

Anyway, let me know if you guys have any ideas!

Thanks,

MrShine

EDIT: A splash is acceptable here - since they don't play any wastelands I'm comfortable bringing in a Blue dual of the appropriate colour out of the board, so long as there is good enough reason to do so.

Bignasty197
08-24-2011, 12:14 AM
You would like Perish out of the board. Kills Goyf, Dryad Arbor, Noble Hierarch and Progenitus. The only things you would really have to worry about are Vendilion Cliques. A number of Path to Exile does well against them also.

MrShine
08-24-2011, 12:17 AM
Its funny you should say that, I've already started testing Perish. And yeah, it's sick.

I still feel like I want a threat in addition to the powerful sweeper, though, to close up the game in the time I buy with it. This highlights the importance of being Grim Lavamancer-proof, as he'll stick around after a Perish to pick off my Faeries.

Jonathan Alexander
08-24-2011, 12:27 AM
If you're looking for something against Grim Lavamancer and Vendilion Clique and you're splashing black anyway, why not run Darkblast? I think that card is really strong right now. The only problem is that it can't deal with Stoneforge Mystic. Also, do you really feel this is an improvement over the UWR lists with Punishing Fire and Wrath Of God (maindeck)? With Punishing Fire you get an important tool for Planeswalker wars while also being able to shoot down nasty stuff like Vendilion Clique, Stoneforge Mystic and Grim Lavamancer.

Bignasty197
08-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Don't laugh, but, I play a single Baneslayer Angel in the board. It lives through Perish and shrugs at Lavamancer. I really only bring it in against Zoo and NO RUG.

MrShine
08-24-2011, 12:40 AM
There isn't really an overabundance of aggro in my meta, so Punishing Fire isn't very appealing. I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick with the U/W build for the time being; the mana-base is solid, and I can run Mutavaults with Spellstutter Sprites for a really good Tempo/Control element. I do not deny the power of Red Blasts out of the board, but like I said I'm more concerned with the NO RUG matchup at the moment than the mirror.

MrShine
08-24-2011, 12:43 AM
Don't laugh, but, I play a single Baneslayer Angel in the board. It lives through Perish and shrugs at Lavamancer. I really only bring it in against Zoo and NO RUG.

Sick, that is definitely something worth considering. It seems like it would be good vs Team America too, as long as you can dodge Edicts / Dismember. It also has added benefit vs aggro match-ups, being an "answer it or lose" kind of threat.

1 Baneslayer
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth

out of the board seems like a diverse and resilient plan. Definitely warrants testing.

sadakiyo
08-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Can you guys give me some pros and cons between the faeries and mutavault version AND the one without them?
Are they simply for meta call?

thecrav
08-24-2011, 06:45 AM
Don't laugh, but, I play a single Baneslayer Angel in the board. It lives through Perish and shrugs at Lavamancer. I really only bring it in against Zoo and NO RUG.

Given the restrictions you've listed, I agree that a Baneslayer looks like a good plan here.

Cynicath
08-24-2011, 01:40 PM
Given the restrictions you've listed, I agree that a Baneslayer looks like a good plan here.

It seems to me that Jitte would be an elegant solution here as well. Instead of just ignoring the lavamancers (and leaving your faeries vulnerable) you can pick them off with the Jitte, or pump your critter to at least baneslayer size, or gain life to help race their aggro plan. Plus Jitte ignores REBs as good as Baneslayer does.

Bignasty197
08-24-2011, 02:36 PM
I play Jitte in the board as well because it has so many applications. I do not, however, bring it in against NO RUG because they bring in Ancient Grudges.

Mackan
08-24-2011, 03:13 PM
i remove the whole SFM package g2/3 against maverick/no-rug/naya for spotremoval, elspeth and wog. give it a try and let me know what you think:)

dan who?
08-24-2011, 03:55 PM
i remove the whole SFM package g2/3 against maverick/no-rug/naya for spotremoval, elspeth and wog. give it a try and let me know what you think:)

I was also told to do this by a friend and in my limited testing it's pretty good. I usually side it out for wraths and counterspells as well.

Jonathan Alexander
08-24-2011, 03:58 PM
I think that's certainly a possibility and right now I actually consider moving the entire Stoneforge-package to the sideboard only for real aggro matchups. Against other control decks or combo you much rather want Clique and Jace. Grim Lavamancer is okay against control as well. I also consider Bitterblossom to completely break open the control mirror. Turn two Bitterblossom must be even stronger now than it was half a year ago with all the Vendilion Cliques currently running around.

jardach
08-24-2011, 05:21 PM
Just a question: I´m not sure what to side out in merfolk matchup...what are you ideas?

ivanpei
08-24-2011, 08:36 PM
I honestly prefer splashing red for the grims. Punishing fire is strong but really slow and this deck has enough 2 drops. What this needs is more 1 drops to smoothen the curve. Red blasts from the board make a huge difference too. They shouldn't be underestimated.

KobeBryan
08-24-2011, 09:43 PM
Plainswalker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats


Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
SB: 2 wrath of god
SB: 3 Meddling mage
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 3 Echoing Truth

Any suggestions? I can't afford vendillion clique.

ivanpei
08-24-2011, 10:49 PM
Mangara is a bad replacement for cliques, especially without karakas. Try kitchen finks. Ive had alot of success with that card from the side and considered maindecking it. Finks is a pain To remove and has to be killed twice, which makes it a good sword carrier.

Jim Higginbottom
08-25-2011, 09:51 AM
why would you ever run mangara w/o karakas? and you really need to do something about that manabase. even if you had to sell a tundra to get flooded strands that would be an improvement.

Asthereal
08-25-2011, 10:19 AM
why would you ever run mangara w/o karakas? and you really need to do something about that manabase. even if you had to sell a tundra to get flooded strands that would be an improvement.

True.
Flooded Strands are more important than playing the fourth Tundra.

I side with Ivanpei for trying Kitchen Finks if you cannot afford Cliques.
Finks improve your heavy aggro matchup considerably and even UBG Landstill doesn't like them too much because they come back from the dead. :)

lorddotm
08-25-2011, 02:03 PM
I usually sideout SFM against any blue deck that isn't Merfolk.

StyrofoamTumor
08-25-2011, 04:22 PM
So first time posting on this site, and this is my UW Stoneblade list

2 Karakas
3 Island
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite

3 Mental Misstep
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Standstill

As you notice I have included the Mangara+Karakas lock, and Aether Vial to help support them. The same kind of lock can also be used Vendilion Clique, while Fatesealing these are devastating. Even further the Wastelock (Wasteland+ Crucible of Worlds), if you can reach one of these locks at a decent rate; your opponent is heading to scoopsville. The Aether Vial also help to support Standstill more than Ancestral Vision, it also let me cut a few land(mostly fetches). Because, they only support shuffling after a Brainstorm, and "deck thinning" is a myth. From a mathematical standpoint. I also have only 2 colors so fetches aren't of an extreme necessity, IMO.

Aside from all that its a basic Stoneblade list.

Oh and I wouldn't go back to a non Spellstutter Sprite list, it is one of the best 2-for-1 effects in Magic. Additionally, Mutavault works very well in conjunction with Riptide Laboratory; it isn't just there to support Sprite.

Well, thanks for reading all that if you did, I always enjoy criticism on my lists. I'm always trying to get better. I hope to be a contributing member of this online community.

Is there any way of doing card/deck tags on this site?

Thanks again.

Mackan
08-26-2011, 03:43 AM
SFM is not a good sideboard option imo. The hate against it is pretty specifik and overall dead cards against the rest of your deck (krosan grip, ancient grudge, qasali pridemage, artifact mutation). Those are less common maindeck than sideboard. Having the whole SFM-package in the sideboard in a meta where UW-stoneforge is the most common deck is not something you'll "get" anyone with. They sideboard their usual suspects whenever they see tundra these days. What's so good about the plan removing your SFM-package g2/3 is that the cards you bring are good against whatever sideboard they might have (counterspells, removal and carddraw).

@lorddotm
What do you bring against those decks? what specific blue cards make SFM bad in the matchup?

@mirror
It's pretty hard to get an edge in the mirror now that the deck is so common... I've been thinking about Jace beleren in the sideboard. It could really help the jace war, even on the draw. It worked for me in std/extended and Legacy is about as fast at the moment =P
Other cards I've been considering are crucible of worlds (not a fan), thopter/sword (random) and more power with 4th jace/elspeth (clunky). I consider swords to plowshares dead card in the mirror aswell as mental misstep unless your opponent play ReB or Spell Snare. So there are about 8 slots we can toy around with. 2-3 pierce, 1 equipment, 1 planeswalker, 2 disenchant and 1-2 other cards.
Any other suggestions? I don't like narrow cards for the miror, preferably instants with CA :O

lorddotm
08-26-2011, 04:04 AM
@lorddotm
What do you bring against those decks? what specific blue cards make SFM bad in the matchup?


I'd rather win the Jace fight.

Mackan
08-26-2011, 04:13 AM
I'd rather win the Jace fight.

I like that squire+manland kills their turn 4 jace, even on the draw. They can't use neither -1 or the 0 ability without Jace dying. A Fateseal is not that good to tap out for. I will try your tech tonight... it's tempting to remove SFM when they bring manriki and disenchants:) what do you side in?

lorddotm
08-26-2011, 04:42 AM
I like that squire+manland kills their turn 4 jace, even on the draw. They can't use neither -1 or the 0 ability without Jace dying. A Fateseal is not that good to tap out for. I will try your tech tonight... it's tempting to remove SFM when they bring manriki and disenchants:) what do you side in?

Pierces (2) Crucible (1) Disenchant (1) Dismantling Blow (1)

Leaving in 1 SoFF, since it can be pretty sick to just naturally draw it and stick it on a Mishra or something.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-28-2011, 04:21 AM
So why is this deck called Stoneblade when the Swords are secondary and/or optional, and the main kill condition is Batterskull, anyway?

Shouldn't it be Stoneskull if anything? Or is that too close to bad Indiana Jones movies. Batterforge?

dahcmai
08-28-2011, 04:25 AM
If you're just wanting a replacement for Cliques that's cheaper, try the original Squadron Hawks again. It actually wasn't all that bad. Especially since you can outdraw most other decks easily when using them with Brainstorm and Jace over and over. I think I'd want a Jotun Grunt or two if I did it though to push them back into the deck since they tend to die a lot. It's decent for making a lot of sword carriers also.

It's not the best card, but it's the next best to Clique oddly enough.


I'm still convinced that the red splash is awesome. I love my Lavamancers and Red blasts. Lavamancer improves the RUG match markedly.


@bear It's better than still calling it Caw Blade.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-28-2011, 06:52 AM
Yeah, but the "Blade" part is only somewhat less anachronistic than the "Caw" would be.

Personally I still like Batterstill.

Hanni
08-28-2011, 11:00 AM
@ IBA

I named my deck "The Justice League," since it runs a bunch of superhero's like Jace, Elspeth, SFM, and Batterskull.

Pascal3000
09-03-2011, 08:43 PM
Hey guys. Im currently running this version of the deck:

// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolaria West
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vedalken Shackles or Crucible of Worlds
1 Wrath of God

The double splash just for sideboard reasons (my probably unhealthy love for having acccess to REB, Krosan Grip, EE for up to 4 and Ancient Grudge after playing Supreme Blue for so long), theres next to no players in my local area who know how to time their wastelands properly and the deck runs enough lands to be pretty resilient to that kind of land destruction.

While im quite happy with the maindeck (which is fairly standard and close to the stock lists anyways), im really unsure about my sideboard.
My metagame is basically 40% Maverick and UW Stoneblade, with a very diverse selection of tier 2-4 decks making up the rest. NO Rug, Dredge, Zoo, Merfolk, Burn, Bant, Landstill, Junk, DeadGuy, Lands, DarkTresh, Team America, High Tide etc. are all present, but only each make up for about 1-3 of the 40-60 decks being played.

Cards i had considered for the sideboard:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Batterskull
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Orim's Thunder
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Misdirection
2 Path to Exile
1 Moat

(Dismantling Blow and Orim's Thunder replacing Krosan Grip if i play a less color intensive and splashy version ((as the one i showed at the beginning of my post)))

While i had a sideboard full of GW hate last time, with about 7-9 cards i wanted to board in, i struggled with boarding out cards. The maindeck is so streamlined and full of good cards that cutting something is really difficult.

I basically wanted to board: +1 Batterskull, +1 Wrath (which i didnt maindeck last week), +2 EE, +1 E-Tutor, +1 Metamorph, +2 Krosan Grip +1 Ancient Grudge.

I tried boarding out Mental Missteps as the amount of targets they have is fairly minimal and both Noble Hierarch and Mother of Runes should preferably be dealt with using Wrath of God or Engineered Explosives, but im really not sure about it. Basically i would really prefer some sideboarding guidelines, especially on what you are cutting postboard.

kiwi
09-05-2011, 02:49 PM
One advice for your list Pascal3000, your main deck only has 6 creatures ( 4 stoneforge + 2 vendilion clique), if you play few creatures and you dont play man lands, its better to play 2 Batterskull rather than 1 sword and 1 batterskull.

Pascal3000
09-05-2011, 03:38 PM
I dunno. I really like the huge temposwing that a single sword hit gives me, even if the amount of creatures is pretty low.
Im definitly cutting Tolaria West for an Inkmoth Nexus for now though.

PeAcH
09-06-2011, 04:32 AM
VIDEOS - LCL - 114 players - top8 match Stone Blade vs Stone Walkers

We have published @ Maná Infinito the videos of the top8 match of the

LCL held in Castelldefels with 114 people (http://manainfinito.com/eventos/lcl-2011-vii-castelldefels-27082011) between two different versions of Stoneblade:

http://manainfinito.com/videos/lcl-2011-agosto-14-final-daniel-rodriguez-uwr-walkerblade-vs-jordi-marti-uw-stoneblade

Enjoy!

jandax
09-06-2011, 06:12 PM
I'm testing a version with 4 Spellstutter, 3 Clique and the four SFM as beat sticks. Man lands hurt the otherwise 9/10 manabase, and the Fae pick up a sword as good as anything did. Does FaeBlade sound dumb?

dahcmai
09-06-2011, 09:45 PM
Quick question. How does Stoneblade fare against Jin-Gitaxias Reanimator. I've been playing around with it lately and the Reanimator smashes the crap out of No Rug, loses hard to BUG control, so Stoneblade seems like it's in the middle of the two. Kind of wondering since I don't have good testers for either deck and I never ran into it while playing Stoneblade.

crovakiet
09-06-2011, 10:12 PM
I found that it's not that terrible a matchup for Stoneblade as long as you play with Karakas and slowroll your plays as if you were playing more of a Landstill deck rather than a 'tap out to play mystic and protect it' deck.

Krondo9
09-07-2011, 12:59 AM
Do you think this deck is better or worse overall with the sprites? as opposed to more counters/crucible and stuff. Obviously its good against Hive Mind, but that deck is not really played that much anyways. Im just wondering because I am tempted to build this deck (Have all the cards), but I kind of like NO RUG more at the moment because its a faster deck, and more my style.

jandax
09-07-2011, 05:05 AM
One thing i've learned, if a deck is more your style, then go for it. Seriously.

And Sprites are counters, and fills a role Squadron hawk did (1/1 flier, CA, wears equipment). They can be boarded out easily, but if you're playing Riptide Lab or something like that, it's like the next best thing to Karakas/Clique

jandax
09-07-2011, 05:05 AM
One thing i've learned, if a deck is more your style, then go for it. Seriously.

And Sprites are counters, and fills a role Squadron hawk did (1/1 flier, CA, wears equipment). They can be boarded out easily, but if you're playing Riptide Lab or something like that, it's like the next best thing to Karakas/Clique

Krondo9
09-09-2011, 04:23 AM
I've been testing extensively with this deck lately, and it seems like its pretty solid overall. Aggro loam seems like a really tough matchup though, as does any deck with thopter foundry.

I think the deck is pretty solid against merfolk, combo, but the win conditions are limited. Visions is good, but slow, and sometimes it is tough to stall long enough to let it go off. Against the really fast decks, I usually board out visions.

What do you guys think about the deck? And does anyone have sideboard suggestions versus specific decks? Im running Kurt Speiss's version from SCG Boston.

Koby
09-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Quick question. How does Stoneblade fare against Jin-Gitaxias Reanimator. I've been playing around with it lately and the Reanimator smashes the crap out of No Rug, loses hard to BUG control, so Stoneblade seems like it's in the middle of the two. Kind of wondering since I don't have good testers for either deck and I never ran into it while playing Stoneblade.

With all the counters, I imagine it's about 50/50 depending on who draws better. I run a red version so I can board into REB for extra support and Jin-nuking. I've seen more Stoneblade lists running extra PTE in the sideboard, and this seems like a matchup that would use it.

jdsnider
09-10-2011, 03:56 PM
Here is my current list:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Spellstutter Sprite

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Visons
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God


4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Disenchant

I took down a 56 man tournament in my area with this build of the deck. I went undefeated in the swiss then ran straight through the top 8. I received a playset of Tundras for winning as well as an unopened box of From the Vault: Legends for having the best record during the swiss. I am very happy with this build as I smashed every zoo, fish, and stoneblade deck that I came across during this tournament and this has also been the case in my playtesting as well.

Here is the important issue though, what the hell do I cut for Snapcaster Mage once it is released? That card is an auto-include value card for this deck that makes our countermagic reusable as well as our brainstorms, swords, etc; as well as being able to carry a sword.

I am tempted to go:
-2 Spellstutter Sprtie
+2 Snapcaster Mage
in order to test it out, but wanted to see if anyone else had any thoughts on the matter.

oRen
09-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Here is the important issue though, what the hell do I cut for Snapcaster Mage once it is released? That card is an auto-include value card for this deck that makes our countermagic reusable as well as our brainstorms, swords, etc; as well as being able to carry a sword.

I highly doubt that. Remember that you can not flashback Visions and that you can not pay the alternate casting cost for FoW when flashbacking it.

Your list seems to work fine for you so maybe you should not cut anything to play win more.

TkDodo
09-10-2011, 05:20 PM
I highly doubt that. Remember that you can not flashback Visions and that you can not pay the alternate casting cost for FoW when flashbacking it.

Your list seems to work fine for you so maybe you should not cut anything to play win more.

From what I have tested so far, Snapcaster Mage is the real deal. Granted, I play UWr without Visions, and I have access to bolt as well, but it is also very good with Swords and especially missteps, as it comes online turn 2 in this case. You have to build your deck somewhat around it (I changed Lavamancer for Bolts and Fire//Ice for instance), but the Mage was never "win more". I guess everyone needs to test for themselves though.

C Rayz Walz
09-10-2011, 08:54 PM
Yea, the mage seems pretty insane in this deck. I really like having more brainstorms, stp, and anything else. I really can't see this deck not running that card.

SageShadows
09-11-2011, 12:05 AM
Yea, the mage seems pretty insane in this deck. I really like having more brainstorms, stp, and anything else. I really can't see this deck not running that card.

No doubt that it's good, but what are you cutting for it?

TkDodo
09-11-2011, 06:31 AM
That depends on your exact build, but I would start with a card that
a) is not that overwhelming on it's own and
b) does not interact very well with Snapcasater Mage,
and that candidate would be Spellstutter Sprite.

For 1U, you get to counter a spell with 1 or less, and if you have a Mutavault in play, you get to counter a spell that costs 2 for 3 mana. Snapcaster Mage can do the first by flashing back misstep and the second by flashing back Spell Snare, except that it's much more flexible if you don't need a counter (as you will often prefer to flashback a sword).

As far as I know, Spellstutter is only good against Hive Mind (and to some extent in the mirror against Visions), but that deck is not existend anyway. Just play Spell Pierce and/or RedBlast in the side and you should be fine, given that you can now double-cast them. You can then also switch back to the "real" man-land, as Factories are much better in the defense than Mutavault.

C Rayz Walz
09-11-2011, 01:12 PM
I agree 100 percent with you.

ivanpei
09-13-2011, 02:42 AM
However, just to add, you left out a few facts:

1. What if you don't draw stp/spell snare?
2. Spellstutter sprite is a better creature because it flies, making it easier to connect with a sword. A 2/1 is no where as good as a 1/1 flyer.

I won't totally cut sprites for snappy/tiagos (we need a nickname for this guy). I think you can drop sprites to 3 and drop maybe a clique for 2 tiagos (can't get his face out of my head, his face does not jell with all that twilight innistrad crap). Tiagos are good, but should be treated more like an eternal witness rather than a sfm/goyf. You don't want to see too many, but it's nice to see a copy or 2.

C Rayz Walz
09-13-2011, 10:33 AM
The odds of you not drawing a stp, snare, brainstorm or any other cheap instant isn't very likely though. This card does feel like witness though and I wouldn't want them to clog my hand up early so I do agree with you that decks shouldn't run more than 2.

TkDodo
09-13-2011, 11:24 AM
I think it's most important that one does not just go like : "I take my current UW Stoneblade list, add x Tiagos and remove x other cards for him" and expect the deck to work perfectly. Like Patrick Chapin says in his (still premium) article on StarCityGames: The only restriction is that you have to play a lot of cheap spells. So I think to make Tiago work, the current lists need to move a little more towards the cheap instant/sorcery (but mainly instant) card category.
Because I think that Snapcastaer Mage will definitely be the "natural evolution" of Stoneblade lists, and because I further think that Tiago cannot be fully taken advantage of in an UW-only list, I will try my luck with Patriot or EsperBlade.

ivanpei
09-13-2011, 10:51 PM
I can see snapcasters taking the place of visions/standstill as the go-to gas card. I honestly prefer patriot as grim is such a house vs folk, no rug and stoneblade. I'd still just play 2 copies or 3 Max. I will never play snapcaster over the 4th jtms. Jace is just too good, so this limits the number or snapcasters that can be played some what. I think the ideal number of bodies for a stoneblade list is 10-12. I play 3 grims, 3 cliques and 4 sfm in my patriot list. Never have body problems with 10 dudes + batterskull honestly. Adding 2 snappies and upping my body count to 12 would be ideal.

Humphrey
09-14-2011, 12:53 AM
Im planning to play this deck this weekend, but I have a few questions about current lists.

-Red Splash: Is it good to trade better manabase for blasts?
-Crucible: I dont get this card here. Is it that useful? Wasteland lock its nice, but seems clunky.
-Daze? Better than Snare?

This is my current list
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Mental Misstep
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Spell Snare
3 Cunning Wish
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Angel's Grace
SB: 1 Misdirection
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Wrath of God

ivanpei
09-14-2011, 01:41 AM
Hawks and wishes are really slow. I wouldn't play them. If you play wastes, dazes are more effective. If you play sprite/vault without wastes, snare is more effective. In general I prefer daze as it's more flexible vs hivemind, jace, natural order etc. But I'm in red and I play grims md. I have plenty of bodies to carry a sword so I don't need sprites as much. If you are going straight uw, you probably need some sprites in there.

xfxf
09-14-2011, 08:06 AM
Hey guys,

What do you think about replacing Visions or Standstills with Dark Confidant as the card draw engine like this version of the deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40722

If I'm not mistaken its player is IsThisACatInAHat in the forum but the discussion about the deck is in UWb Esper Blade topic (white-Team America).

However to me it looks more like UW Blade Control with Bobs as the drawing engine. I used to play Forbidian a lot and using Bob in a blue control list reminds of it. Also the list don't have any discard effects or additional cantrips so I think it would play close to the UW Blade Control rather than Esper Team America.

Opinions?

Humphrey
09-14-2011, 04:36 PM
for my personal taste the mana costs are to high in this deck for Bob. With Jaces, Cliques, Equipments and Forces its pretty risky. Also Bob dies real quick. But is definitely playable nonetheless.

But any opinions on crucible and red anybody? This thread is really quiet.

Zunam
09-14-2011, 05:30 PM
The rise of GW Maverick decks in my region is causing me a some problems (outnumbering even Merfolk).

In most Matches I am able to stabilize after some time but it seems that they have more threats that they can draw against than we can handle consistently.

Their utility lands like Tower of the Magistrate and Maze of Ith cause a lot of problems for me as well as Thrun or even Mother of Runes.
All of these cards turn the game in their favor quite quickly if not answered immediately where on my side there are not really many cards that I can draw to lock the game in my favor.

Having played a lot against GW Maverick I am feeling the matchup to be in their favor (slightly but still on their side; Personally I am something like 40/60 % against them).

I am already running Wrath of God Pithing Needle and of cause the Path to Exiles in my sideboard. But this doesn't seem enough (or not strong enough).

Does anyone have GW Maverick specific suggestions for Sideboard cards or is it time to adept to my Meta and change the deck?

xfxf
09-15-2011, 03:50 AM
for my personal taste the mana costs are to high in this deck for Bob. With Jaces, Cliques, Equipments and Forces its pretty risky. Also Bob dies real quick. But is definitely playable nonetheless.

But any opinions on crucible and red anybody? This thread is really quiet.

Well the thing I had in mind is to replace the Cliques in that list with Spell Pierces and thus such a list:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Swords To Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confidant

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

24 Lands

Batterskull can be used to mitigate the lifeloss from Bob if it gets too great, it has good synergy with Jace anyways and a sure way to draw cards "now" as opposed to Standstill or Visions.

lordofthepit
09-15-2011, 04:49 AM
I've read in other threads that a good Stoneblade player will often sideout the Stoneforge package if he expects a lot of artifact hate (i.e. Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip)?

I don't see how this is a viable plan though. Without the equipment package, the deck is reduced to a pile of counterspells and removal with Jaces, manlands, and Faeries as win conditions. Is that really a better plan against NO RUG (for instance) than just hoping to stick and protect your Batterskulls?

TkDodo
09-15-2011, 05:31 AM
I've read in other threads that a good Stoneblade player will often sideout the Stoneforge package if he expects a lot of artifact hate (i.e. Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip)?

I don't see how this is a viable plan though. Without the equipment package, the deck is reduced to a pile of counterspells and removal with Jaces, manlands, and Faeries as win conditions. Is that really a better plan against NO RUG (for instance) than just hoping to stick and protect your Batterskulls?

I think you can't protect Batterskull from Ancient Grudge. You can't seriously double-counter it, and bouncing Batterskull all the time in response will make you so slow, since the Mystic will be killed a lot at that time. You could only try and Clique it away before you play Batterskull. However, they will have a lot of options post board: Red Elemental Blast hurts as a lot, they probably bring their own Jaces, which we have to handle. Of course, they will still be able to combo early, and apart from Force of Will or maybe Wrath of God, we are blank to NO. They even have their own Cliques to play in response to Mystic activision - and here comes a big issue I think: we cannot reliably handle 3 or 4 drops. And now we can't even do anything against a one-and-two drop (Ancient Grudge). Another thing is: I do want a pro Green sword against NO RUG, but I can't really use Body and Mind, because I will probably give them Ancient Grudge in their yard.
So postboard does not look very good if you keep SFM.

What you can do however is transform to a normal full-blown control deck. My plan is realtively easy against NO RUG: Board out Stoneforge+Equipments to blank their Grudges (having them have 2-3 completely dead cards in their deck is very good!). I will also add Elspeth from the side to add some more threat density. If you have Meddling Mages, bring them in. I will also always add 3 Spell Pierces. It handles every important spell: Natural Order, Jace, and even GSZ. I will also bring a couple of RedBlasts for Jace, Clique, Counters and Brainstorm. Last but not least, I will add an emergancy wrath and side out some swords (because they most likely cut on their Goyfs anyway).

Oatus
09-16-2011, 02:16 AM
Hey guys, I'm new to the internet but but I've been playing Legacy for a while now, heres my current version of a more tempoish UWx Stoneblade list. The only major difference is the inclusion of Stifle which I have found really amazing in this shell. Although it is a poorly positioned card, I feel very happy with it in my 75 ATM. REBs have been sub par in the SB, as has Manriki-Gusari, but they do a job I guess...

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

3 Wrath of God
2 Submerge
2 Path to Exile
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Spell Pierce
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast

[EDIT: I've heard some sweet talk about Timely Reinforcements in the SB, Would it be better than Wrath against Zoo [and the typical field in general] or should I just stick with the current package? Anyone with some experience on this matter, chime in, would totes be sick! EDIT 2: Just to clarify, I would only be cutting a single Wrath]

RainbowPenguin
09-17-2011, 01:16 PM
@ Zunam: You could try a black splash. Perish in the sb is pretty good, and it is applicable against a number of other decks too (NO RUG, Zoo, some Rock-ish decks, basically any deck whose plan A is to beat down with green dudes). It dodges Teeg too, which can be quite relevant.
If you splash red, Grim Lavamancer should be good too, since a lot of the creatures in Maverick are small utility dudes.
Engineered Explosives with any splash could also be worth trying out, since Maverick will most assuredly bring in Choke from the sb, and EE can destroy that, while not being a dead draw if they happen to draw nothing but dudes. It is also recurrable with Academy Ruins, if you run that.
In case you don't want to splash, or you just really like off-beat solutions, you could try Linvala, Keeper of Silence. I haven't tried it myself, but it could actually just be the stone cold nuts against them. Shuts off their mana dudes, Pridemage, Mother, Knight (well, kinda. It will still be a huge beater, of course), Scryb Ranger, and Mangara or Scavenging Ooze, if they run those.

@ Oatus: I really love Stifle + Wasteland, but I would personally try it with Daze, once I get around to it. I think something like Ponder might actually be better than Ancestral Vision in such a deck, since otherwise there is a very real chance that the tempo advantage slips away before you get to win off of it. That's just conjecture, though, and likely bad conjecture, if it works for you. How do you use it? Primarily to stifle fetches, or as a tool against Stonforge Mystic, Qasali Pridemage, etc?
Also: Are there no Dredge decks in your meta? Lucky you..

DragoFireheart
09-17-2011, 08:52 PM
Is there any benefit to running Green? Tarmogofys/KotR for more beats? Something else?

Oatus
09-18-2011, 05:28 AM
@ Oatus: I really love Stifle + Wasteland, but I would personally try it with Daze, once I get around to it. I think something like Ponder might actually be better than Ancestral Vision in such a deck, since otherwise there is a very real chance that the tempo advantage slips away before you get to win off of it. That's just conjecture, though, and likely bad conjecture, if it works for you. How do you use it? Primarily to stifle fetches, or as a tool against Stonforge Mystic, Qasali Pridemage, etc?
Also: Are there no Dredge decks in your meta? Lucky you..

Re: Dredge

I've been finding that between Mental Misstep and Stifle that Dredge is actually containable, basically if they don't auto DDD then its usually a fairly reasonable match. [EDIT: and once i get a batterskull out I just pay 3 and return it asap to get the bridges]

Re: Daze and Ponder

I was originally running both of these cards (well, preordain instead of ponder) [mini edit: i've been writing a massive response to this part of the question, but at the end of the day... tl;dr...] but I think resolving Jace on turn 4 is way more valuable than the tempo from Daze, and Visions has beed really easy to get off if I even stifle one of their lands.

Re: Stifle

Typically I save it for V Clique trigger and Pridemage activations, but if I know that I'm playing against RUG or Reanimator, I often stifle the lands and timewalk my way to a vision (read: win) [mini edit: decks that run 16-19 lands shouldn't be getting as many wins as they are, they don't deserve it]

ivanpei
09-18-2011, 08:54 PM
Most of the lists here look like they are heavily geared for the control mirror with visions and what not. If you really have trouble against gw maverick, the best solution is a red splash. Grims tend to shut down the whole deck. You stick and protect grim, they lose. Their hate bears, moms and mana dudes are all soft to grim. Check the patriot page for lists.

Rekk
09-20-2011, 12:25 AM
MM is gone =( this kinda seems bad for stoneblade. what are your thoughts for the future of this archetype now

KobeBryan
09-20-2011, 12:27 AM
See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 12:58 AM
See you later stoneblade. Hello Counterbalance.

Blade CounterTop. With Snapcaster Mage.

Wirrsturm
09-20-2011, 01:02 AM
I really don't get why everyone thinks countertop is good because mental misstep is banned.

Countertop died as a competative archtype way before mental misstep was printed due to an overabundance of vial decks in the format. Guess what decks people will start playing against when there is a no 1v1 answer to lackey/vial on the draw.

I'm not saying stoneforge/countertop is bad. I even like the ideal but countertop was not good against the pre-misstep meta. The printing of batterskull might have changed that ofcourse giving you actual game against vial agro decks but to say that countertop is going to automatically the face of control again seems fallacious.

I'm sure you can still run some number of hard + conditional counters in the 4 freed up slots and have this deck keep on trucking with only a slight drop in power level.
Misstep was good but not the only reason this deck won.
Stoneforge/stable manabase/absurd equipment/excellent permission all still exists.

W/E my two cents

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 01:10 AM
I really don't get why everyone thinks countertop is good because mental misstep is banned.

Countertop died as a competative archtype way before mental misstep was printed due to an overabundance of vial decks in the format. Guess what decks people will start playing against when there is a no 1v1 answer to lackey/vial on the draw.

I'm not saying stoneforge/countertop is bad. I even like the ideal but countertop was not good against the pre-misstep meta. The printing of batterskull might have changed that ofcourse giving you actual game against vial agro decks but to say that countertop is going to automatically the face of control again seems fallacious.

I'm sure you can still run some number of hard + conditional counters in the 4 freed up slots and have this deck keep on trucking with only a slight drop in power level.
Misstep was good but not the only reason this deck won.
Stoneforge/stable manabase/absurd equipment/excellent permission all still exists.

W/E my two cents


Batterskull will help fix CTs issue with vial decks. I'll get a list ready in the morning.

TkDodo
09-20-2011, 02:10 AM
Snapcaster Mage seems a lot worse without Mental Misstep. I think Countertop-Thopters is the way to go, with SFM being able to fetch Sword of the Meek. What do you think?

jdsnider187
09-20-2011, 02:56 AM
here is my new shell that I played to first place at another 50+ man tournament (we have them about once a month around here) that I have updated for the bannings (I'll miss you Mental Misstep) and playtested extensively for the past couple of hours against various archetypes. It's looking promising so far.
Changes from previous list:
Main:
-1 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Ancestral Visions
-1 Mutavault
+2 Thopter Foundry
+1 Sword of the Meek
Side:
-1 Sword of War and Peace
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Post-Banning Changes:
Main:
-4 Mental Misstep (*sniffle*)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Daze
Side:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Misdirection

Maindeck:
Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spellstutter Sprite

Countermagic:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision

Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Removal:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God

Arifacts and Equipment:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds


Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Wrath of God
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Misdirection
1 Crucible of Worlds

Not really sure still where the cuts would be for Snapcaster Mage, but I do know that this deck REALLY wants him. I know that cutting Spellstuter Sprite is NOT correct as that 1/1 flyer/conditional counterspell is a fantastic in this deck.

No, I'm still not playing Vendilion Clique and no i don't have a good reason for it other that i don't own the card and am not a fan of playing it in general anyways. Yes, I know how good it is.

The addition of a secondary win-con in the Thopter/Sword combo seriously helps out against Game One scenarios against decks like G/x Maverick, helps to race Progenitus from NO RUG, and also gives us a quicker kill option against Dredge for Game One when we don't have our hate. I am tempted to shave somewhere in order to add a 3rd Thopter Foundry.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 07:54 AM
Lets get the ball rolling shall we? I predict that Storm decks are going to make a reappearance. Goblins also will be coming back. We need something that can fight both. I got a shell here for a BladeTop deck:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This is just a shell to get it going. We could do a few things with this deck like splash red for:


Grim Lavamancer
Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast


Also, what sort of sideboard should we have now?

ivanpei
09-20-2011, 08:28 AM
I think that we have to prepare for a resurgence of Vial decks. In that case, Grim lavamancer is probably the best card to splash for. If combo gets obnoxious, obviously Countertop would be the best bet. Also, we have Snapcaster Mage as a new toy to play with. I'll test this list to start:

4 SFM
3 Clique
3 Grim
2 Snappy

1 Batterskull
1 SOFF

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Jace TMS
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 STP
2 Bolt

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volc
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Karakas

I think Countertop is already very mana intensive, pairing it with SFM does not seem like the best Idea. Tarmo/Snapcaster probably suits the Countertop package best IMO. Time will tell I guess.

RainbowPenguin
09-20-2011, 09:49 AM
It might be too mana intensive, but on the other hand, I think the two plans could complement each other very well. Against Vial decks, where Counterbalance doesn't really do much, you have Batterskull, and against combo decks, where Stoneforge into Batterskull is kinda slow, you can just concentrate on setting up the CounterTop lock, after which it doesn't really matter that much if you kill is two turns slower than the alternative.

Mackan
09-20-2011, 10:26 AM
I like the interaction between snapcaster mage and enlightened tutor... And a lot of other sweet synergies like autoprotection from spell snare when you draw snapcaster with top. a chumper+1/2 sword to plowshares makes it easier to protect jace. A decent respons to standstill... the list goes on. Here's my old list with some stoneforge/snapcasters.

CREATURES (8)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Moat
SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder
INSTANTS (16)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (11)
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
LANDS (22)
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
1 Plains
6 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
SIDEBOARD
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sundial of the Infinite
3 Path to Exile
1 Serenity
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist

And an easy switch from UW-blade. -4 misstep +4 tops -3 thopter/1 sfm or 4 spellstutters +4 counterbalance. Im very tempted to splash a color since the manabase really can't afford lands that doesn't produce U (for UU turn 2). I.e wasteland/mishra's factory/mutavault

CREATURES (7)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
PLANESWALKERS (4)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (7)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (24)
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

thoughts?

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 10:56 AM
It might be too mana intensive, but on the other hand, I think the two plans could complement each other very well. Against Vial decks, where Counterbalance doesn't really do much, you have Batterskull, and against combo decks, where Stoneforge into Batterskull is kinda slow, you can just concentrate on setting up the CounterTop lock, after which it doesn't really matter that much if you kill is two turns slower than the alternative.

- Basically this. If one plan gets invalidated, the other is there to back it up. Stoneforge takes care of the vial decks while CounterTop takes care of the combo decks. Red could be splashed to help futher fight goblins and merfolk ala Grim Lavamancer. Splashing red also gives us ways to fight other blue decks. I think it's the best shot Blade Control and CounterTop have at becoming a tier 1 deck.

As an example of a RUW BladeTop deck:


2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt


- I know the lack of MMS is a bit discouraging but we shouldn't give up on the SFM -> BS plan just yet.

RainbowPenguin
09-20-2011, 02:49 PM
@ DragonFireheart: I like the idea of that list. I'm not sure that you want two Batterskulls, since it will be harder to protect Mystic without MM. I'm not sure what I would want instead, perhaps 1 Batterskull, 1 Sword of the Meek (in addition to 2-3 Thopter Foundry). But perhaps that is a different deck entirely.
I am not sold on two Counterspell main, what with Lavamancer, Mystic and Top costing mana to run, and tapping out for those plus Jace. 4 Counterbalance and 4 Jace also seems kinda heavy. I think the deck could use a sweeper of some kind, even with the Lavamancers.
With modifications:

2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Engineered Explosives/Firespout +2
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
0 Counterspell -2
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare +1
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance -1
1 Batterskull -1
1 Sword of the Meek +1
2 Thopter Foundry +2
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -2

I really wanted one more Lavamancer and one more Foundry, but I can't decide on any more cuts.

The Sideboard would include the fourth Counterbalance, as well as the third and maybe fourth Jace.

Jace, CounterTop and Stoneforge Mystic are all cards that are relatively poor if you are behind, but that gain value the longer the game goes on. How best to provide the necessary breathing room is the tough question, imo. I vote for more sweepers.

dahcmai
09-21-2011, 12:51 AM
I already had decided EE seemed to be a must due to vial. No sense letting them have that jump. On top of that, Belcher got a boost from not having Misstep and I wanted a defense vs that crap. I always hated how that deck could dump a ton of gobbos on you so quick. EE fixes a lot of the problems that Misstep took care of. It's about the best replacement I knew of.

People will be slow to change from No Rug and such also. Lavamancers seem really, really good all of a sudden since some old pet decks will be back just due to people thinking they are viable again even if they aren't.

dan who?
09-21-2011, 01:20 AM
People will be slow to change from No Rug and such also. Lavamancers seem really, really good all of a sudden since some old pet decks will be back just due to people thinking they are viable again even if they aren't.

I also think Lavamang will be really good especially if goblins and merfolk get played heavily again. I have started to draw up plans to incorporate a heavier red splash in this deck for them.

DragoFireheart
09-21-2011, 09:31 AM
@RainbowPenguin: I think running Firespout in this deck is a bad idea. It kills our grims and it kills our SFM. It's good in Supreme blue because Tarmogoyf could live through it and Clique could fly over the flames (since you could simply not use green mana).

@dahcmai: I've always hated Engineered Explosives. It seems very slow: 1 mana to drop it and another 2 to use it. EE also screws with our curve a little bit for using CB Finally, we can risk killing our own Grims if we are running them. It's for those reasons that I don't like . I think it's worth testing out Repeal as it has other uses and arguably gives us more tempo. I also think focusing on killing the green/blue men rather than stopping their vials is the best route for fighting them. Running grims and maybe even running Lightning Bolt for extra removal and reach are the best ways to go about fighting vial aggro decks.

Dzra
09-21-2011, 09:44 PM
Land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Creatures 11
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique

Other Spells 25
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard 15
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Cursed Totem
2 Disenchant
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives

DragoFireheart
09-21-2011, 11:26 PM
That's the thing about Snapcaster: there isn't really room for him and Clique.

Vendilion Clique and Snapcaster Mage: which is better and why?

TkDodo
09-21-2011, 11:55 PM
Threats 12
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts 3
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Other Spells 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

Lands 23
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard 15
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Spell Pierce

No offense, but I don’t think this list can make it in the new environment. Without Mental Misstep, we all have to be ready to beat decks that are a lot faster. Reanimator already is a deck to beat (granted, they loose MM too), and I expect Storm combo and High Tide to make a comeback. Apart from Forces and maybe the Spell Snares, there is nothing to stop them. Ancestral Visions will be way too slow, and neither Jace nor SFM have a big impact here. Dredge will also be pretty hard to beat.

On the other hand, we have to be able to deal with Aether Vial aggro decks. Wraths may be good here, but again, probably a tad slow. Goblins will be refilling their hand too quickly with Ringleader and Matron. SFM into Batterskull is still a good answer to have against aggro, and it will help tremendously against e.g. Merfolk.

Further, the deck does not seem to be tuned to abuse Snapcaster Mage. Right now, I only see Brainstorm, Swords and Spell Snare as viable flashback targets, so the 4-off seems wrong to me. Granted, Surgical Extraction is very good with Snapcaster Mage. The Mage was a ton better with Mental Misstep, since you could cast it on turn 2 and have a flashback target, but I think it can still be very good now, if you build your deck around it with enough dedicated targets.

A card that I have been finding myself siding in almost every matchup (even before the banning) was Spell Pierce. I obviously wanted it against combo, I wanted it in the Mirror against Jace and for the counter-war in general, I wanted in against NO Rug and I even wanted it against Zoo to handle GSZ and the burn spells they fire at me. Spell Pierce will be pretty good in the upcoming meta I guess, and it also goes very well with Snapcaster Mage. It also handles Aether Vial, at least on the play (or if it does not happen to come down turn 1).

The second card I’ve been looking at was Stifle. Stifle will resolve a lot more now without Mental Misstep running around everywhere. I don’t think of it as a “Stifle-Wasteland-Daze” tempo Stifle, but more like a “Control the important triggers” Stifle, in the way of “Nice Squire!”, “No you don’t draw 7 with that Jin”, “2 Tendrils loss of life only” and so on.
Still, there is always the opportunity to Stifle an opposing Wasteland or Fetchland if he happens to me mana-screwed anyway, but I don’t think of it as a primary goal. I believe Stifle should be good against Goblins too, as their creatures don’t do much without the “comes into play” trigger. If we can shut down the important abilities, we should be able to ignore Aether Vial to some extend and focus on our game plan without being overrun. And again, snapping back Stifle looks strong in theory.

Thoughts?

DragoFireheart
09-24-2011, 12:18 AM
Thoughts?

A shameless post to encourage people to visit my new thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22210-Deck-CounterBlade&p=589359#post589359 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22210-Deck-CounterBlade&p=589359#post589359)

Zunam
09-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Why is there a lot of talk about Counterbalance after the MM banning? I don't see making it the cut. Which decks is it really good against at the moment.
Yes, it's good against combo but the rest of the decks are running wide-spread mana-curves and utilize things like GSZ which work wonders against Counterbalance.
Additionally there are also things like Vial and Stoneforge Mystic that help playing around Counterbalace if not countered.

I just don't see it being good enough anymore.

DragoFireheart
09-24-2011, 01:28 PM
Why is there a lot of talk about Counterbalance after the MM banning? I don't see making it the cut. Which decks is it really good against at the moment.
Yes, it's good against combo but the rest of the decks are running wide-spread mana-curves and utilize things like GSZ which work wonders against Counterbalance.
Additionally there are also things like Vial and Stoneforge Mystic that help playing around Counterbalace if not countered.

I just don't see it being good enough anymore.

CounterBlade. If they are running varied mana-bases then their deck is slow, which gives us time to drop Batterskull. If they are running low CMC spells, they lose to CBT. If they have vial, they are likely merfolk or goblins, which can also lose to Batterskull.

Zunam
09-24-2011, 02:25 PM
All valid points. However I still don't see a need to run Counterbalance.

Varied Mana-bases make them slow and allow us to drop Batterskull but this is also true if we are not running Counterbalance at all.
Running Counterbalance makes us even slower because the "Combo" is quite Mana heavy which doesn't pair well with Batterskull (especially if we cannot stick the SFM).

I am not saying that Counterbalance is bad I am just saying it's not worth it at the moment.

Especially because the combo requires something between 6-8 slots and I am not willing to dedicate that amount of slots to something that is just "OK" in most matchups if the Meta isn't becoming combo-heavy.

DragoFireheart
09-24-2011, 03:21 PM
All valid points. However I still don't see a need to run Counterbalance.

- To avoid auto-loss to storm? To help fight Zoo by forcing them to choose to either blow up batterskulls or CB with pridemages? To have a soft-lock to protect our SFM/Batterskulls better? Last time I checked CBT was still good against Zoo. CBT also protects our SFM against Zoos removal.



Varied Mana-bases make them slow and allow us to drop Batterskull but this is also true if we are not running Counterbalance at all.
Running Counterbalance makes us even slower because the "Combo" is quite Mana heavy which doesn't pair well with Batterskull (especially if we cannot stick the SFM).


- Stop claiming it is intensive without trying it first. I have personally tried it and the claims that the two don't work is a bunch of crap. Considering that Batterskulls abilities and SFM abilities can be used at instant speed, the mana issue is relatively minor.



I am not saying that Counterbalance is bad I am just saying it's not worth it at the moment.

Especially because the combo requires something between 6-8 slots and I am not willing to dedicate that amount of slots to something that is just "OK" in most matchups if the Meta isn't becoming combo-heavy.

- Except CBT is still very good at protecting our SFM even if the opponent tries to circumvent CB using vials/GSZ. Also, Blade control is far too slow versus storm decks which are very likely going to make a resurgence in response to many dead decks that died off. Combo, even if it isn't popular in the U.S, sees plenty of play in Europe.

Zunam
09-24-2011, 04:52 PM
It's still not convincing me:

-Blade Control doesn't auto-lose to storm. It might not be heavily favored but there are a lot of cards available that are good (even though not as good as MM was) against storm combo. The counter package (depending on build: Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Daze, Counterspell ...)combined with connecting 1-2 times with Batterskull have worked for me especially when bringing in additional hate from the sideboard. And then there still is the Clique.
At the moment I do not see the need to run any specific mainboard hate.
Yes CB is still good against Zoo but not as good as it used to be. GSZ helps a lot as well as a larger variation in the casting cost of their cards (especially with our own weakness in the 3CC slot).

-And having both CB/Top and Batterskull "is" intensive on the Mana-Base. I tried it with and without MM legal and always had problems especially against Wasteland. Additionally you are under pressure really fast if you miss on a land-drop early on. Those are things that I want to avoid for consistency reasons.

-If Combo (read: Storm Combo) will show up more often I might consider running CB again. But I am still not sure if this deck is the one supporting it the best. I cannot speak for Europe as a whole but at least Combo isn't a big factor at the moment in my region.

Considering that I expect a Meta with RUG, Merfolk, Zoo and GW-Maverick as the biggest factors for the next weeks I don't see this as a environment that demands for -or favors Counterbalance.

DragoFireheart
09-24-2011, 05:02 PM
Considering that I expect a Meta with RUG, Merfolk, Zoo and GW-Maverick as the biggest factors for the next weeks I don't see this as a environment that demands for -or favors Counterbalance.

- Fair enough.

How do you purpose to protect your stoneblade without MMS now?

Qweerios
09-24-2011, 05:18 PM
How about the good old Counterspell?

Zunam
09-24-2011, 05:35 PM
What I am currently running is a straight UW list where I upped the amount of Cliques and Hardcounters (Counterspell) and am running Swords in different color combinations between sideboard and Mainboard.

It's not as good as it was with MM but it is still good. Having had no big problems with protecting my threats up to now but to be fair my experience after the banning is based only on test-games against friends (however with relavant decks) and some minor MWS action - no tournament experience yet after the banning.

DragoFireheart
09-24-2011, 05:53 PM
How about the good old Counterspell?

- Waiting until turn 4+ to cast a stoneblade versus zoo/goblins/merfolk is a great way to die.



What I am currently running is a straight UW list where I upped the amount of Cliques and Hardcounters (Counterspell) and am running Swords in different color combinations between sideboard and Mainboard.


- What does your current list look like?

Zunam
09-24-2011, 06:35 PM
That's what I am currently running (not really settled since MM bannning).

Nothing spectacular except for maybe the Standstills.
I felt like switching back to them lately because I felt like Ancestral Visions was a bit too slow when drawn late in the game. But this might change back when I have run some more games.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [M12] Island
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [DDF] Mishra's Factory
1 [M12] Plains
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
2 [DD2] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 [CMD] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle

dahcmai
09-27-2011, 07:34 PM
I noticed this one at Milano in 8th place with 118 players. I had to laugh a little at it. Talk about going back to the roots. Hawks are in there and the old Counterspells and Thopter Foundries even. Gotta give some credit to making it that far with that many people. Just seems outdated anymore though I always thought the Hawks were decent, Clique was just a necessity at the time.


4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Thopter Foundry

Side
2 Academy Ruins
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

mulder
09-27-2011, 09:01 PM
I played this deck at a tournament recently and I must say that I have no idea why this deck is in the "decks to beat" section.
The best play is, that on turn two you tap out play a Mystic, get an overcosted equipment, spend the next turn praying that your Mystic somehow survives the crazy amount of creature removal available, then tap out again to play the Batterskull and on turn 4 finally start attacking with it.
Not only is this incredibly slow, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that starts attacking on turn 4 at best isn't that impressive either... . And that is assuming the Mystic lives a turn when you're tapped out.

It's my impression that this deck loses to virtually everything available: zoo, merfolk, goblins, combo, Hive mind, you name it. I even got raced by Affinity. Yes, Affinity! Does this deck have any good matchups at all?

chags
09-27-2011, 11:28 PM
I would probably say that the best play is not playing stoneforge turn 2. You are a control deck, counter their threats or remove them and when they stumble run out the mystic and get a clock going.

preddi
09-28-2011, 04:08 AM
If you lost to all those archtypes you either got unlucky, picked up the wrong list or played it wrong. But after the MM banning i think your point of the deck being too slow makes perfect sense.
I don't see this kind of deck in the DTB section anymore, but this obviously needs some time to proof. I still hope that i can use my mystics even after a few weeks

Rekk
09-28-2011, 08:22 PM
I played this deck at a tournament recently and I must say that I have no idea why this deck is in the "decks to beat" section.
The best play is, that on turn two you tap out play a Mystic, get an overcosted equipment, spend the next turn praying that your Mystic somehow survives the crazy amount of creature removal available, then tap out again to play the Batterskull and on turn 4 finally start attacking with it.
Not only is this incredibly slow, a 4/4 lifelink vigilance that starts attacking on turn 4 at best isn't that impressive either... . And that is assuming the Mystic lives a turn when you're tapped out.

It's my impression that this deck loses to virtually everything available: zoo, merfolk, goblins, combo, Hive mind, you name it. I even got raced by Affinity. Yes, Affinity! Does this deck have any good matchups at all?
Mental misstep is their to protect mystic... also you vial in batterskull at the end of their turn (your turn 3) leaving you with one mana untapped.
on turn four your not tapped out and have a 4/4 lifelink swinging.
did you really play this deck or just assume it was bad...
and also mental misstep is the real reason this deck was able to win. Being able to stop vial and lackey also dark rituals from combo. and SSS are their to counter your copy of the pacts.
as for affinity and zoo, i had one wrath of god main board and mental misstep is really strong against zoo.

tezzerator69
09-29-2011, 02:10 AM
Mental misstep is their to protect mystic... also you vial in batterskull at the end of their turn (your turn 3) leaving you with one mana untapped.
on turn four your not tapped out and have a 4/4 lifelink swinging.
did you really play this deck or just assume it was bad...
and also mental misstep is the real reason this deck was able to win. Being able to stop vial and lackey also dark rituals from combo. and SSS are their to counter your copy of the pacts.
as for affinity and zoo, i had one wrath of god main board and mental misstep is really strong against zoo.

Yeah, MM protects mystic and it's also the real reason this deck was able to win BEFORE. But the card that you are fascinated with is not playable in legacy format anymore. Better start thinking on how to modify your maindeck/strategy now that MM is gone.

Now back to the strategy topic:
Based on my testing, adding counterbalance to the deck makes it too mana intensive. On the other hand, it's the closest way how MM protects SFM before. I will stick to CBTop strategy until the new meta in our country shapes-up.

Frid
10-02-2011, 07:00 PM
Yesterday I got second out of 293 in the first big legacy event post bannings, winning a bunch of duals with this list:

// Lands
6 [B] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives


This is basically the list which won me the flight to Amsterdam last month, switching the missteps for the new mages and one extra clique. Mages performed really well all day long recycling swords to plowshares mainly, and also brainstorms and diverse counterspells (snare, cpsell and red blasts from the sb). I have done a report but it's in spanish, if someone would like to read it using google translator and/or discuss anything about it or about the deck in general I can link it to him with no problem. My pairings were: GWB depths rock, Mirror with faeries, goblins, TA, GBR scapeshift, natural order bant, landstill UGB, merfolk, and in the top8 ooze reanimator, ANT and again the natural order bant from the swiss rounds, which was the only deck I lost against during the day.

Cotes16
10-03-2011, 03:09 AM
maybe is a stupid question but how does interact Snapcaster Mage with Ancestral Vision?

DragoFireheart
10-03-2011, 08:46 AM
maybe is a stupid question but how does interact Snapcaster Mage with Ancestral Vision?

It doesn't.

wizard_of_gore
10-03-2011, 09:16 AM
Yesterday I got second out of 293 in the first big legacy event post bannings, winning a bunch of duals with this list:

// Lands
6 [B] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives


This is basically the list which won me the flight to Amsterdam last month, switching the missteps for the new mages and one extra clique. Mages performed really well all day long recycling swords to plowshares mainly, and also brainstorms and diverse counterspells (snare, cpsell and red blasts from the sb). I have done a report but it's in spanish, if someone would like to read it using google translator and/or discuss anything about it or about the deck in general I can link it to him with no problem. My pairings were: GWB depths rock, Mirror with faeries, goblins, TA, GBR scapeshift, natural order bant, landstill UGB, merfolk, and in the top8 ooze reanimator, ANT and again the natural order bant from the swiss rounds, which was the only deck I lost against during the day.


Congratulations! :D

I'm very glad to see deck is viable without mental misstep, and i have few questions.

- How do yo feel about playing without MM?
- Do you think that deck can stand in new metagame without MMs, and can it perform good results with pure UW color?
- Is it red splash essential to survive in new meta, or is it possible to splash other colors (black or green perhaps) other than red, to have answer/versatility on weak matchups and rest of the metagame?

sadakiyo
10-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Could you please give us some report?
Congratulation on your result

Frid
10-03-2011, 03:37 PM
Sure, here's the link to it:

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5977

Despite using google translator many things will remain unclear for sure, so feel free to ask about whatever you'd like to know, or just to comment anything.


- How do yo feel about playing without MM?
- Do you think that deck can stand in new metagame without MMs, and can it perform good results with pure UW color?
- Is it red splash essential to survive in new meta, or is it possible to splash other colors (black or green perhaps) other than red, to have answer/versatility on weak matchups and rest of the metagame?

The deck is absolutely viable without MM, but not in the same way it was until now. I mean, now it's hard to protect stoneforge from removal, you don't have the "oops I win" factor that you had when you got a hand with stoneforge, two land and two free counterspells. So now the idea is to play the deck as a true control deck and use stoneforge mystic as a finisher and/or as a fast tool to combat hard matchups for blue control such as merfolk. That was my idea, and that's the reason I play cards like counterspell and vedalken shackles.
I wanted to splash simply because I wanted a good sb against all the tier one decks, and just straight UW didn't give to me a good sb. First of all I wanted cards against the worst matchup of the deck, which I'm nearly sure it's zoo in their aggresive versions with loads of one drops, and wrath of god was too slow here. Second, I wanted good cards for any control mirror, and I wanted something better than dispel or spell pierce. And third, I wanted something against the two tier combo decks: Show and tell and hive mind. From all the splashes I liked red over the rest because of red elemental blast and firespout, which were exactly the cards I was looking for, so it was easy. And regarding the rest of the tiers I always had good cards to sb in against all of them, so I was really happy and red worked great for the time I've been playing the deck (my only two losses in the two tournaments I've played have been agains dredge and natural order bant). So, answering your question, red is the color you're looking for if you want to combat the weak matchups and the tier one decks. I'm pretty sure about that.

dan who?
10-03-2011, 07:40 PM
I'm really liking the list Frid and plan to try it out as this is what I was envisioning the direction Stone-Blade would go. Any changes you'd make to the list after the tournament?

Frid
10-03-2011, 08:03 PM
Not for the moment, every card from the maindeck and sb was useful all day long except for the surgical extractions, but I feel more comfortable playing a split of 2 and 2 together with the relics instead of a straight 4x relics just because of the mages, so I will let it that way.
Next I want to test is a riptide laboratory in the slot of karakas, which seems reasonable, but karakas still produces white mana and laboratory colorless one, and just because of this I'm not very convinced at first glance. Also note that karakas is a nightmare for reanimator and show and tell decks, two tiers.
We'll see, I just wish I had a bit more time than three weeks to try to optimize the deck regarding the GP...

dan who?
10-03-2011, 08:10 PM
Not for the moment, every card from the maindeck and sb was useful all day long except for the surgical extractions, but I feel more comfortable playing a split of 2 and 2 together with the relics instead of a straight 4x relics just because of the mages, so I will let it that way.
Next I want to test is a riptide laboratory in the slot of karakas, which seems reasonable, but karakas still produces white mana and laboratory colorless one, and just because of this I'm not very convinced at first glance. Also note that karakas is a nightmare for reanimator and show and tell decks, two tiers.
We'll see, I just wish I had a bit more time than three weeks to try to optimize the deck regarding the GP...

I was also thinking about Riptide since you'd have Tiago and Clique to bounce back but I definitely see the reason for Karakas over it, especially as I see Reanimator being a top tier deck for a while. Once I pickup some Snapcaster Mages I plan on giving your build a try. Were the peacekeepers worth it in the sideboard? Did you just bring them in against Reanimator/Tribal decks? Would you suggest them over something like Phantasmal Image or the like?

DragoFireheart
10-03-2011, 11:15 PM
Sure, here's the link to it:

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5977


- Posting the deck list with tags!

// Lands
6 Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [B] Mountain
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
3 [INN] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Counterspell
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives





The deck is absolutely viable without MM, but not in the same way it was until now. I mean, now it's hard to protect stoneforge from removal, you don't have the "oops I win" factor that you had when you got a hand with stoneforge, two land and two free counterspells. So now the idea is to play the deck as a true control deck and use stoneforge mystic as a finisher and/or as a fast tool to combat hard matchups for blue control such as merfolk. That was my idea, and that's the reason I play cards like counterspell and vedalken shackles.

- Is the deck workable without wasteland? I have never been a big fan of wasteland in a deck with 3+ colors and it seems like the deck can be mana intensive. I have a few questions for you:

[B]1. Which matchups truly gave you a difficult time pre-board?

2. Which matchups did you find to be easy post-MMS?

3. How much testing have you done in regards to Grim Lavamancer?

4. Which do you feel is better for this deck: Grim or Snappy?

Q 221
10-03-2011, 11:35 PM
I wanted to splash simply because I wanted a good sb against all the tier one decks, and just straight UW didn't give to me a good sb. First of all I wanted cards against the worst matchup of the deck, which I'm nearly sure it's zoo in their aggresive versions with loads of one drops, and wrath of god was too slow here. Second, I wanted good cards for any control mirror, and I wanted something better than dispel or spell pierce. And third, I wanted something against the two tier combo decks: Show and tell and hive mind. From all the splashes I liked red over the rest because of red elemental blast and firespout, which were exactly the cards I was looking for, so it was easy. And regarding the rest of the tiers I always had good cards to sb in against all of them, so I was really happy and red worked great for the time I've been playing the deck (my only two losses in the two tournaments I've played have been agains dredge and natural order bant). So, answering your question, red is the color you're looking for if you want to combat the weak matchups and the tier one decks. I'm pretty sure about that.

Assuming zoo's actually the matchup you want to worry about, wouldn't a black splash for Perish in the board be a stronger call than Firespout? You'd basically be guaranteeing a kill on Goyf and Knight in exchange for losing the ability to take out Lavamancer, which seems strong, since Batterskull is kind of weak when a decent-sized Goyf or Knight is down. You'd also get some additional power against both NO Bant and NO RUG, and since NO Bant was one of your only losses, maybe it's worth shoring the matchup up?. You'd lose Pyroblasts too, but I'm not sure how great Pyro is here: you can force through countermagic and blow up opposing Jaces, maybe stop the occasional Snapcaster, but Pyros can't actually stop Reanimator or Storm from comboing out. Spell Pierce or Duress seem like they could be decent options there.

I'm also curious on your choice for MD Sword. It seems reasonable to have a pro-green sword, since Zoo's one of the matchups you really want to hit, but I don't know what pro blue does other than Merfolk, and the deck already seems like it absolutely annihilates Merfolk between Swords, Shackles, Pyros, Firespouts, Peacekeepers, and MD Stoneforge-->Batterskull, and I'd think Batterskull would be the go-to SFM target against Folk anyway.

The deck seems pretty mana-intensive between Stoneforge, Snapcasters, and Jaces, so I can see the untap trigger of Sword of Feast and Famine being quite useful, the discard trigger seems solid against combo/control, and pro-black has some fringe uses against opposing Batterskulls and the rare piece of removal.

Do you use Body and Mind because of the "make a guy" trigger? I wouldn't think the mill would matter much: stick SoBaM on a Snapcaster, swing with it and nothing else, and you've got them at 4 life by the time they're going to have to start worrying about their library.

KobeBryan
10-04-2011, 01:16 AM
So this is the deck i saw today. This deck is brutal for merfolk. Its NASTY. Fish doesn't even stand a chance

sdematt
10-04-2011, 01:32 AM
What list is the one you saw?

-Matt

KobeBryan
10-04-2011, 01:49 AM
What list is the one you saw?

-Matt

Dragonfire Heart's

Frid
10-04-2011, 04:32 AM
Ok, some points to answer:


Were the peacekeepers worth it in the sideboard? Did you just bring them in against Reanimator/Tribal decks? Would you suggest them over something like Phantasmal Image or the like?

I didn't play against reanimator at all, but in the case I had done it I wouldn't. Simply because if they reanimate their main target, which is jin gitaxias or whatever it's called, peacekeeper is like nothing and they will remain drawing 7 every turn until they get an out to it. I have had bad experiences with this some months ago. Against goblins it's a weak card because gempalm is uncountereable, so I don't bring it in neither, and against merfolk after much much testing I have noticed that I bring in so much removal that I don't want to bring peacekeepers in. This is since the printing of dismember for sure, which they always bring in post board. Peacekeepers were in my sb mainly because of GW zenith, which is easily the most played deck in Spain and probably Europe, and I have to lose yet a game post board against this deck when I have peacekeepers post board. They're a blowout for them, you just have to counter their 4 swords to plowshares and they can't win. And of course they're also good against emrakul and progenitus decks. But it's true that after losing twice against natural order bant I'm seriously debating in switching them for wrath of god.


1. Which matchups truly gave you a difficult time pre-board?

2. Which matchups did you find to be easy post-MMS?

3. How much testing have you done in regards to Grim Lavamancer?

4. Which do you feel is better for this deck: Grim or Snappy?

1. Maybe just NO bant because it's high density of big creatures (reliquary, goyf, 4 zenith) and their "oops I win" factor from the NO. I wouldn't say it was horrible, but I generally felt behind in the game. The player factor was also important, as I have never beaten this guy in tournament.

2. Talking about games preboard, rock style decks in general are really easy to beat. Post board merfolk is the easiest deck to beat ever.

3. and 4. My idea was to play lavamancers because I liked them and they were really good against GW, but then they printed the mage and I have to give it an edge. I didn't really want to play red pre board, and the mage worked great, so I will remain playing it. Lavamancer is a good option, no doubt about it, but mage is more versatile (it's good against all the field, I didn't sideboard them out in a single round) and it's in our main colors Uw.


Assuming zoo's actually the matchup you want to worry about, wouldn't a black splash for Perish in the board be a stronger call than Firespout? You'd basically be guaranteeing a kill on Goyf and Knight in exchange for losing the ability to take out Lavamancer, which seems strong, since Batterskull is kind of weak when a decent-sized Goyf or Knight is down. You'd also get some additional power against both NO Bant and NO RUG, and since NO Bant was one of your only losses, maybe it's worth shoring the matchup up?. You'd lose Pyroblasts too, but I'm not sure how great Pyro is here: you can force through countermagic and blow up opposing Jaces, maybe stop the occasional Snapcaster, but Pyros can't actually stop Reanimator or Storm from comboing out. Spell Pierce or Duress seem like they could be decent options there.

I'm also curious on your choice for MD Sword. It seems reasonable to have a pro-green sword, since Zoo's one of the matchups you really want to hit, but I don't know what pro blue does other than Merfolk, and the deck already seems like it absolutely annihilates Merfolk between Swords, Shackles, Pyros, Firespouts, Peacekeepers, and MD Stoneforge-->Batterskull, and I'd think Batterskull would be the go-to SFM target against Folk anyway.

The deck seems pretty mana-intensive between Stoneforge, Snapcasters, and Jaces, so I can see the untap trigger of Sword of Feast and Famine being quite useful, the discard trigger seems solid against combo/control, and pro-black has some fringe uses against opposing Batterskulls and the rare piece of removal.

Do you use Body and Mind because of the "make a guy" trigger? I wouldn't think the mill would matter much: stick SoBaM on a Snapcaster, swing with it and nothing else, and you've got them at 4 life by the time they're going to have to start worrying about their library.

Surely black was my second option splash, but in the end I wanted the red blasts for the control mirrors (which are much better than duress/thoughtseize because it's better to be reactive and make them spend mana) and the aggresive versions of zoo which gave me problems had loads of one drops, and the firespout was gold here.
My decision was to play sword of body and mind first of all because 90% of the opposite creatures that were bigger than my equipped creatures were green, so I wanted SoBM or SoFF. And second, the SoBM gives you a body to equip every turn, which is essential to race big mosters like knight of the reliquary when you just have one creature on the board: Equip it, swing, make a token, equip token, block whatever, swing, make another token, equip it... with SoFF you can't win when you're behind or even tied because they can easily race you with their big guys. This was much more important for me than being able to untap lands or whatever. Obviously the milling ability is useless 95% of the time, but what I was interested in was the creating tokens ability because of what I explained.

DragoFireheart
10-04-2011, 10:21 AM
1. Maybe just NO bant because it's high density of big creatures (reliquary, goyf, 4 zenith) and their "oops I win" factor from the NO. I wouldn't say it was horrible, but I generally felt behind in the game. The player factor was also important, as I have never beaten this guy in tournament.

- What could be done to make the matchup easier? I see your list but I'm unsure of what to add.


2. Talking about games preboard, rock style decks in general are really easy to beat. Post board merfolk is the easiest deck to beat ever.

- Rock decks? Interesting, I would have thought this deck would be even with Rock decks. Looks like my dream is coming true: a blue deck that's non-merfolk in the post-MMS meta that beats the living snot out of Merfolk decks.


3. and 4. My idea was to play lavamancers because I liked them and they were really good against GW, but then they printed the mage and I have to give it an edge. I didn't really want to play red pre board, and the mage worked great, so I will remain playing it. Lavamancer is a good option, no doubt about it, but mage is more versatile (it's good against all the field, I didn't sideboard them out in a single round) and it's in our main colors Uw.

- Would the grims have helped out with the NO/Pro matchs?

Frid
10-04-2011, 04:05 PM
- What could be done to make the matchup easier? I see your list but I'm unsure of what to add.



- Rock decks? Interesting, I would have thought this deck would be even with Rock decks. Looks like my dream is coming true: a blue deck that's non-merfolk in the post-MMS meta that beats the living snot out of Merfolk decks.



- Would the grims have helped out with the NO/Pro matchs?


I'm thinking about switching peacekeepers for wrath of god, because many of the times I had peacekeeper on the board I ended up losing the game, and had those been wraths I would have cleaned the board.
Definetly lavmancers would have not helped much, the games I lost against NO bant I was facing reliquarys, goyfs and/or cliques. He didn't resolve natural order in any single game. And I stayed alive in some games thanks to flashbacking swords to plowshares again and again.

dan who?
10-04-2011, 05:34 PM
I'm thinking about switching peacekeepers for wrath of god, because many of the times I had peacekeeper on the board I ended up losing the game, and had those been wraths I would have cleaned the board.
Definetly lavmancers would have not helped much, the games I lost against NO bant I was facing reliquarys, goyfs and/or cliques. He didn't resolve natural order in any single game. And I stayed alive in some games thanks to flashbacking swords to plowshares again and again.

That's what I would probably do to be honest. I stopped running peacekeeper once dismember was printed because it didn't seem like that great of an answer anymore, especially against merfolk where it was the best against. I always packed some number of wraths when I played this deck during pre-mm banning and always loved when I had them. I feel they are slow against merfolk(so I'd keep firespouts) but I stole games away from NO decks when I played Wrath against them.

On another note, was this the tournament you played in?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22275-Road-to-Alcobendas-Eternal-Weekend-Legacy-Main-Event-297-Players

If so, any chance you were under the camera so we can get to see this deck in action?

Frid
10-04-2011, 06:31 PM
You're right, that's the tournament. I got featured in round 4 against TA, so you should be able to watch the round as soon as they upload it. If I can recall correctly you will also watch some snapcaster shenanigans there.

rignes
10-04-2011, 08:31 PM
You're right, that's the tournament. I got featured in round 4 against TA, so you should be able to watch the round as soon as they upload it. If I can recall correctly you will also watch some snapcaster shenanigans there.

When it's posted, would you be willing to provide a link? It would be a great resource to see it in action.

Frid
10-04-2011, 09:14 PM
Sure, no problem. Just give the guys some days to upload all the videos they recorded. It's a hard work to recollect and edit them, you know.

DragoFireheart
10-05-2011, 09:54 AM
Guys, better keep an eye out for some secret tech Merfolk players may be using against us:

Tower of the Magistrate

They can target the germ token, forcing the equipment on it to be removed. This kills the germ token.

Waikiki
10-05-2011, 10:13 AM
I think the card will fall out of favor soon enough. tempo decks are getting more and more popular and so is combo. At least for GP Amsterdam. The card fights a too specific deck imo.

KobeBryan
10-05-2011, 02:54 PM
As a fish player, I don't understand why people are using 2 precious sideboard slots of 2 towers. Chances of you getting this card is slim at best.

The matchup for merfolk against this deck is like 30/70 preboard. post board is like 15/85.

Even with the two towers, Merfolk won't win. The two precious sideboard slots can be used to beat up decks merfolk has a chance of beatin (those decks with a 60/40 merfolk advantage), thus ensuring victory over those decks.

This is the same logic against zoo, when post board, they bring in 4 REBs.

Lord_Cyrus
10-05-2011, 03:44 PM
I have to agree, I think Merfolk will always be a dog against the U/x Blade archetype. The deck plays too many things that absolutely ruin any tribal deck. When you can gain life with Batterskull while picking off their lords with removal and threatening a Snapcaster mage for a surprise blocker, it looks pretty damn bad for the Fish.

That being said, I wonder if the Black splash isn't worthy of some more consideration? Perish seems like it would solve so many of this deck's issues, and being able to run Extirpate over Surgical is a legitimate advantage. You could also bring out Dark Confidants from the board if you really wanted to piss all over control mirror matches. Can you imagine them boarding in Krosan Grips only to see Bob on turn 2?? Priceless!

Pezmonkey
10-05-2011, 05:40 PM
My pairings were: GWB depths rock, Mirror with faeries, goblins, TA, GBR scapeshift, natural order bant, landstill UGB, merfolk, and in the top8 ooze reanimator, ANT and again the natural order bant from the swiss rounds, which was the only deck I lost against during the day.

Awsome! I also read your report (I am from Perú) and it will help me a lot.

The thing is that i just finished the deck a week before the banning (and without the red splash) so i was kind of wondering if you could tell us, more or less, what you sided out and in through your matches?

A vague idea will help a lot!

Thx and congratz

EDIT> and also, wouldn't it be a good idea to add +1 or +2 tundra instead of basic ilands (know that you are planning to add Wrath)

Frid
10-05-2011, 06:11 PM
This is how I sideboarded:

R1: 2 relic and 2 explosives for 2 shackles and 2 vendilion.

R2: 3 reb for 3 swords to plowshares.

R3: 3 firespout and 2 explosives for 1 vendilion, 1 jace and 3 snare.

R4: 2 relic for 2 cspell.

R5: Nothing, and had I known what I was playing against I would have done the same.

R6: 3 peacekeeper for 1 snare, 1 cspell and 1 jace. I knew he changed the NO package into stoneforges plus equipment postboard.

R7: 4 stp for 3 reb y 1 surgical.

R8: 3 reb, 3 fspout and 2 explosives for 2 jace, 3 cspell and 3 vendilion. That's right, I didn't bring in peacekeepers, and I'm sure that's the right call.

Quarterfinals: 3 reb, 3 peacekeepers and 2 surgical for 4 stp, 2 shackles and 2 snare. I knew he had a transformational sb into show and tell.

Semifinals: 3 reb for 2 shackles and 1 stp. Just in case of possible confidants.

Finals: Same as round 6


What I like most of this deck is the fact that it can pack loads of basic lands. I don't want to play a dual if I can play some combination of fetchlands on color and basics. Two tundra is more than enough to cover the few cases you have to fetch them. It's true that adding a pair of wraths makes me need WW in some games pos board, but 80% of the time the decks I will bring wrath in against don't play wastelands (bant, zoo, show and tell...). The rest is GW and maybe goblins, and think that I just run two wraths, so in many of the games I won't even draw into it. If the deck mana worked perfectly with 3 peacekeepers it also should work at least fine with two wraths.
Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable at all playing two tundras I suppose you can add a third one cutting one island. But I'm nearly sure that the times you will get screwed because of that island being a tundra will be more than the times you will say thanks for having a tundra there. That's the simple reason why I don't want to play more than 2.

Pezmonkey
10-05-2011, 06:15 PM
THANK YOU!

I still need a couple of cards to complete your list. but i will try it in a week or so and let you know.

my final question :)

did you kill using jace's ultimate? or it was mainly use to brainstorm?

Frid
10-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Of course I did. Brainstorm is just a tool to fill your hand, at some point you will have to win. There are even situations when playing jace that if you have already countermagic and removal in hand, and you're facing an empty board, you can (and should) start fatesealing right there.

Pezmonkey
10-05-2011, 06:51 PM
I think the same. The ultimate is awsome. And using 4x Jace helps a lot, because you don´t need to protect the first one that much, knowing that you have a second comming.

Lord_Cyrus
10-05-2011, 07:27 PM
Wow, thanks for the sideboarding details!! How effective were the REB's? I imagine it would be a total blowout against Jace or opposing Cliques but... Maybe it would be better to keep the mana strong by going straight U/W now that you are talking about playing Wraths? Are there really that many situations where you needed the REB and couldn't have used a Path to Exile or Spell Pierce instead?

You talk about the importance of playing a lot of basics to avoid getting crippled... I can't help but agree now that people are going back to Stifles. Do you think the slight power loss from cutting red might be worth ensuring that the tempo decks don't have game against you?

Frid
10-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Are there really that many situations where you needed the REB and couldn't have used a Path to Exile or Spell Pierce instead?

Absolutely. The real action in the control mirrors starts when both players have a decent amount of mana on the table, and this makes spell pierce useless half of the time. I have played this and other similar decks with spell pierce in the sb and really hated it. It's not a good card for a control deck, and dispel for example would be much better. But reb is the best card by far you can play to win control mirrors. I can't imagine playing the deck without it. The third color also makes engineered explosives much better.
I directly avoid playing path to exile in my decks because it's a bad card in my opinion (but hey, that's me)And as I said before, I don't think adding a pair of wraths in the sb will change much regarding the mana. You just have to fetch the second white mana in the form of a tundra when you're casting wrath, and then most of the time it will be irrelevant if they wasteland it because you will be facing an empty board... Anyway this weekend I will play the new sb configuration in a local tournament tomake sure it works.
I don't think this deck should care about stifle at all. Of course if you keep a two land hand and get stifled you're in trouble, but in such scenario who wouldn't? Once you've fetched the plains you have won half of the game. 24 land plus eight basics is a decent road to victory here, and you can always use wastelands to make them spend stifles. In the round I played against TA I ate some stifles and didn't care at all, still won 2-0 with him not having a chance.
What I love from stifle decks when I play against them is the fact that many times they have to stay untapped if they want to stifle, and because they're so light in lands many times they can't cast anything but a cantrip before passing. This buys yourself so much time that by the time you start fetching you have 5 or 6 lands in play and don't care at all about being stifled even twice. It's really funny. Unfortunately, delver of secrets has changed this a bit and now it's harder not to be under big pressure since the beginning, but swords to plowshares still costs one mana and they're still usually behind.

DragoFireheart
10-05-2011, 08:55 PM
@Frid:

You currently have Sword of Body and Mind.

Do you think the other swords have use in this deck?


Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Fire and Ice

Dzra
10-05-2011, 10:05 PM
After seeing the top 8, I'm thinking about running Stifle since it has a lot of game against combo and Zoo. Another card I was thinking about is Mother of Runes as she can give similar protection to Mystics like Misstep used to provide.

Frid
10-06-2011, 04:30 PM
@Frid:

You currently have Sword of Body and Mind.

Do you think the other swords have use in this deck?


Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Fire and Ice


Nope. With just 10 creatures I don't want more swords, because it's relatively easy to draw into them, and the tempo loss of playing, equipping and having the creature killed with nothing more toequip can be a headache. I had to choose one, and it was SoBM because the token trigger lets you race opposite big creatures (which are green 90% of the time) by swinging and after combat equipping the token, and doing it again turn after turn. It's the only sword that is able to race an unfavourable field by itself.

About mother of runes I would argue the same as I did about not running more swords: With just 10 creatures it's hard to take full avantage from it. I mean, this is not GW or whatever, where you can easily run 3 swords and the playset of mothers is mandatory.