[Deck] UWb Esperblade

[lordofthepit]

Ok The Source, this is your turn. Going to a trial for Annecy tomorrow fielding this deck. What I am asking for is advise on my sideboard. I really need something to fight NicFit. Let's face it, the matchup is abysmal and our lategame against them is non-existant.

I am asking for cards that have the potential to swing this matchup into my favor. I don't care if it would be of little to no value in other matchups; my meta is infested with Nic Fit and I need to fight a way of battling through it. Right now I consider adding 3-4 cards to my sb that specifically adress this matchup.

Show me what you're made of.

I've only played 3 matches against Nic Fit (twice against GB, once against GBr), but it's been extremely easy for me. Perhaps I was playing against suboptimal builds, but you can easily gain incremental card advantage on them with Stoneforge and Snapcaster Mage, while burying them with Jace. It's almost impossible to lose once you resolve Jace, unless you were already getting killed on board position.

You benefit as much from their accelerant as they do. You have as much discard as they do, but yours will always hit a target, plus you can protect your bombs with cnatrips. You also have countermagic to prevent their bombs from hitting.

What variants of Nic Fit have you been playing? That might make a difference. Also, I often board out some number of Lingering Souls against them, which has been extremely profitable since my opponents seem to go out of their way to fight against it (Dread of Night, Surgical Extraction, etc.).

[Q 221]

Here's my take on Esperblade, via tempo approach

2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Lingering Souls

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Zealous Persection

It has a very solid game against Maverick, even more so against 3cc builds. The tech everyone seems to be missing is Back to Basics, which often is insta-win vs a couple of matches.

This seems like a really interesting take on the archetype: Legacy seems to be shifting back towards really tenuous manabases (I was shocked to see Martell's list running only 22 land), so it seems like a great time to be running a list with manabase disruption.

Do you ever feel like you're running too few threats? I feel like this list is pretty comparable to Canadian Thresh, and while you're running one more creature than Thresh's 12, I have a hard time seeing the Stoneforge Mystics really counting as a threat, as even with a SoFI it's only a 2/3. Does the resilience of Lingering Souls compensate enough for this?

You mentioned the list is strong against Maverick: I haven't put in enough testing to confirm or deny, but I have a hard time believing this. The tempo approach seems relatively weak against Noble Hierarch and GSZ into Dryad Arbor, and your threats are outclassed pretty quickly. Perish in the SB seems strong, but there are only 2. Is that enough to consistently lock out Maverick? Maverick doesn't seem particularly great against a Jitte, but is that really enough to have a strong matchup?

[Julian23]

What variants of Nic Fit have you been playing? That might make a difference. Also, I often board out some number of Lingering Souls against them, which has been extremely profitable since my opponents seem to go out of their way to fight against it (Dread of Night, Surgical Extraction, etc.).

It feels whatever I do, especially in game 1, doesn't really matter to them. I only lost 1 round in the swiss today - of course to Nic Fit once again. In game 1 it felt like my only chance of winning was ultimating Jace. As you mentioned, tokens are usually not long for this world despite always only having a single pair of them on the board. On the ground Thrun (4 GSZ, 2 or 3 SDT to find them) pretty much stops me cold.

Not to mention Plainswalkers. Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, Lilliana Vessa. And Recurring Nightmare & Eternal Witness. Also Sun Titan. Some even play Karn Liberated. And Choke. I remember casting Vendilion Clique on my opponent and seeing 2 Planeswalker, Choke and Recurring Nightmare with Eternal Witness on the field. I have nightmares about this deck.

I still really love the maindeck. Just my sideboard needs tweeking. Lost in the Top 8 Playoffs to TES because I just couldn't pressure him enough. Right now, I really think this deck wants around 2-3 hate bears (Pikula?) to stand a fair chance against Storm. Discard + Snapcaster is pretty good but dealing 2 damage a turn won't cut it. 4 on the other hand seems pretty decent.

For what it's worth, I played against:

Affinity 2-1
TES 1-1-1
Bant 2-0
BUG Tempo 2-0
Nic Fit 0-2
Death and Taxes 2-0

4-1-1, 5th place after Swiss. Lost to TES in the quarters, 0-2.

/edit: Of course Cannonist is not what you should be playing to combat Combo in this deck. Being unable to use Snapcaster to flashback discard is bad.

[Tinefol]

Do you ever feel like you're running too few threats? I feel like this list is pretty comparable to Canadian Thresh, and while you're running one more creature than Thresh's 12, I have a hard time seeing the Stoneforge Mystics really counting as a threat, as even with a SoFI it's only a 2/3. Does the resilience of Lingering Souls compensate enough for this?

3/4 under SOFI, actually, but yeah, the "too few threats" problem is solved by Lingering Souls resiliency. Even if your Delver/SFM gets removed, you're getting 4 more flying bodies out of one card. That works miracles against point removal decks.



You mentioned the list is strong against Maverick: I haven't put in enough testing to confirm or deny, but I have a hard time believing this. The tempo approach seems relatively weak against Noble Hierarch and GSZ into Dryad Arbor, and your threats are outclassed pretty quickly. Perish in the SB seems strong, but there are only 2. Is that enough to consistently lock out Maverick? Maverick doesn't seem particularly great against a Jitte, but is that really enough to have a strong matchup?

There're 4 types of wins you get against maverick:

1) You flip 1-2 Delvers early, and just ride them to victory, playing accordingly.
2) You go the mana denial plan and succeed at it.
3) You get an active jitte quick.
4) After SB you blow them out with Perish.

The mana denial plan is certainly possible, since you run a full set of Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, there's a great chance to Stifle a fetchland, Daze/Stp Noble/GSZ, waste their land. The key here, is that you can solidify your gain by a SFM into jitte/sofi, and unlike RUG, you have STP for a resolved KoTR. Nearly half of the games I won were won on the mana denial. Moreover if they're running Punishing Fire, Back to Basics is a blowout. If anything, mana denial is the best plan against deck as hungry for its mana, as Maverick.

[JBlaze]

This deck seems well positioned to integrate temporal mastery but what do you guys think is the best way to do it?

[Q 221]

3/4 under SOFI, actually, but yeah, the "too few threats" problem is solved by Lingering Souls resiliency. Even if your Delver/SFM gets removed, you're getting 4 more flying bodies out of one card. That works miracles against point removal decks.


There're 4 types of wins you get against maverick:

1) You flip 1-2 Delvers early, and just ride them to victory, playing accordingly.
2) You go the mana denial plan and succeed at it.
3) You get an active jitte quick.
4) After SB you blow them out with Perish.

The mana denial plan is certainly possible, since you run a full set of Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, there's a great chance to Stifle a fetchland, Daze/Stp Noble/GSZ, waste their land. The key here, is that you can solidify your gain by a SFM into jitte/sofi, and unlike RUG, you have STP for a resolved KoTR. Nearly half of the games I won were won on the mana denial. Moreover if they're running Punishing Fire, Back to Basics is a blowout. If anything, mana denial is the best plan against deck as hungry for its mana, as Maverick.

Apologies, I can't count. That seems reasonable, and I'm pretty impressed by the way the deck is put together. I've been looking for a good delivery mechanism for Back to Basics for a while now as well, nonbasic hate hasn't been seeing enough attention recently.

What have you found it to be weak to? It seems like Burn is a poor matchup just because it applies pressure faster and your only way to interact is Jitte, which seems easy to keep you off of with spot removal. Anything else?


@JBlaze: I like conventional control better than aggro-control for Temporal Mastery: Jace is a great way to get extra mileage out of the card (since the planeswalker activation on your extra turn guarantees you at least +1 off the Mastery) and you have more outs to deal with one that wasn't your first draw of the turn. I have to think he's also completely mutually exclusive with Bob, since unless you have a steady stream of deck manipulation, flipping Mastery off of Bob is absolutely awful.

There doesn't seem to be a great cut from the list, however: possibly dropping the discard package down or lowering the Snapcaster count?

[JBlaze]

I know there are a lot of different builds being discussed on this thread.
I'm playing the lingering souls version with Jace instead of bob. If Temporal mastery turns out to be as good as it seems bob may have to get cut.

[Tinefol]

What have you found it to be weak to? It seems like Burn is a poor matchup just because it applies pressure faster and your only way to interact is Jitte, which seems easy to keep you off of with spot removal. Anything else?


I've played a bunch of games on MTGO, and I can say, its hard as hell to lose vs burn. I'm like 12-2 in matches here. Granted, I'm playing with Batterskull in S/B (MTGO metagame justifies it), but it isn't even necessary. The deck is often able to just race, and more often than not to connect with jitte. If he spends removal on equippers, great, its not going towards your face, and a single Souls just makes it inevitable. Though usually you're just able to counter their bolt into your jitte wearer.

The deck is generally weak to Loam recursion, be it RGW Loam loaded with a bunch of removal (bolt + stp + qpm + assault) or Loam Pox (pox/stp/darkblast) or RGB Loam with Fires. You're usually unable to kill them before they start running their engine on a full scale due to high amount of removal, and after they start actively loaming you have a bunch of useless cards in your mana denial package. Assault is a nightmare.

Postboard games highly depend on your ability to get hate. B2B is great there, but Surgical Extraction is less useful, as often they can just save their loam by cycling a land.

I have some new sideboard techs to fight loam though, so its doable.

[klaus]

Time to bring up the Temporal Mastery topic?
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Temporal-Mastery-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler.jpg
I see great potential for U.control decks. The key benefit I see is that extra land drop during the early game, which is HUGE!
Discuss!

[Kellyx]

any thoughts about this list?
no fow, no batterscull, no wastelands...
cant even call it uwb blade.more like uwb fish

[Julian23]

Which list are you referring to?

[ThirdEy3]

Well with seeing Temporal Mastery I was pondering a new build and what cuts would be made, how many to run, etc. Curently going to say 2, and that 3 would be a lot and becomes too reliant on multiple brainstorms, seeing it on top with ponders, Snapcaster Brainstorms, and having Jace going for multiples in a row or something. Although it could be great as a 3 of, more testing to do still.

What have you guys thought?

Thanks Fade for the Youtube video about Esper Blade with Bernie Wen and Mark Sun, and that is the deck that I started my first testing of this deck with. I am from the Columbus area and know Mark Sun (Hey if you read this forum much) playing in Columbus Ohio area, CTown, and SCG locals etc. I think this deck is well suited for most of the decks that get played in the meta now.

Playing more of a mid-range Aggro Control with counters for more of a protection than: I am going to counter all your spells and you wont have anything, because that doesn't work. But with Discard, Counters, Removal and good win conditions like Flying Tokens with Jitte, + Jace, & Batterskull. It seems to be well rounded out as a deck.

Then because you usually play more games Sideboard than you do Main deck, or at least half if you are that amazing. The Esper color combo gives great access to meta hate cards right now.

New List - based off of list from previous page I posted.
Any advice appreciated to variations in builds.

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughseize
2 Ponder (is it possible this should be a 3-4 of now with TM ?)
3 Lingering Souls
1 Vindicate
2 Temporal Mastery (3)

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Riptide Laboratory (Because I am taking Karakas out with Vclique)

SB- changes depending on where I am but last week I played and currently like~
1 Force of Will
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm (maybe 2 for heavy combo meta)
1 Vindicate
1 Perish
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Zealous Persecution (also kills empty the warrens, elves, mom, thalia, hierarch, scryb etc)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile


I am not sure if Temporal Mastery is Correct for this deck but I think with the proper Engine of Brainstorm and Jace to back it up in consistency and FOW pitch if it is a dead Card unfortunately. If this deck can abuse this card then we can aid the problem of being a slower control deck and making more land drops, drawing more cards, making our probability of brainstorm Jace and ponder see the right cards when we need them and get that extra needed setup turn that sometimes you just don't have when someone is bashing you in the face with fast aggro and you are just barely behind ;x

[Kellyx]

Which list are you referring to?

ops forgot link.
http://www.decklists.net/index.php?option=com_ohmydeckdb&controller=deck&view=deck&deckId=13266
this one.

[jumping salmon]

Assuming a stock list, what are the common ins/outs for the common matchups (sneak, mirror, mav, rug, etc)? I don't have a huge amount of experience with the deck and was wondering what everyone's "typical" board plans were.

[DarthVicious]

Haven't searched that much, but I have some ideas for this deck. Venser, the Sojourner? Tombstalker? Phantasmal Image out of the board vs. Reanimator/Sneak Show? I seriously doubt I am the first to come up with this stuff.

I tested Lingering Souls by itself, with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and Sorin by himself. I don't think any of those are what this deck wants to be doing. Just my opinion. Maybe in the right matchup they could be OK, but... that's it. OK. I run Vendetta and Tombstalker in their place, I've found I want more critter removal sometimes. Other times I want more counterspells, or bigger threats.

[matunos]

Ive just started morphing over to Esper with a list inspired by, but not exactly the same as Martell's.

In the list above, I think I'd prefer a Wasteland instead of a Riptide. Riptide is very controlly, and It can be good in a long grinding match, I think that is at odds with the increased aggressiveness of the Esper build (mostly in the form of discard, but also the Lingering Souls, if you're running them). Wasteland can kill problematic lands like Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith, or Grove of the Burnswillows. On the other hand, a singleton Wasteland may not offer enough consistency.

Alternatively, depending on your meta, Tower of the Magistrate might be good.

I watched a couple of Bernal's games. Bob did some heavy lifting for him, but overall I thought the deck was not focused enough. Two SFM seems like too few, I felt the Cabal Therapies were not all that great, and diluted the the Lingering Souls+Jitte plan. I also don't like the no counter plan. He wasn't able to handle a grinding match very well, literally losing Game 3 to his own Bitterblossom, and Maverick is a real deck that is going to cause grinders (Bernal's list, and I daresay all Stoneblade lists, cannot utilize tempo as efficiently as RUG Delver, and shouldn't try).

I think Rubin's list (linked above) is more promising. The discard is the most valuable thing Esper has above UW, I think. The Lingering Souls can be explosive, but now everyone else is ready for them via the likes of Sulfur Elemental, and Dread of Night. You have to be ready to board them out if you're playing against a deck that can bring that hate to bear. Or, you can eschew LS in the first place and just go with the discard and sideboard hate that black brings.

I'm a big fan of Geist of St. Traft, so if I found myself packing 3 Vedilion Cliques, at least one of those would be a Geist instead. Sometimes it's good to just have a beater who is immune to removal and can close things out, especially if you're playing a sword main instead of a Jitte.

[sumbahdy]

Hi all.

I’ve been testing Joe Bernal’s list that top 8’ed in the past SCG event and tweaked it to my liking. For reference, here is my list:

2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lingering Souls
1 Mortarpod
2 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution

The main difference from my list and his are the use of Confidants over Snapcaster Mage. His deck is basically Dead Guy Ale that splashes blue for draw and Jace. I’ve omitted Jace in favor of more discard and a Vindicate to answer other threats and most of all, Planeswalkers. The deck plays nicely and will clutter the board with lots of tokens to chump any creature w/o protection but mostly has a hard time connecting at least once with an equipment attached to it. A recurring Darkblast killed my side as the equipped creature never got to connect. It is strong against control since Cabal Therapy + Gitaxian Probe assures that we won’t miss but with the token generation, we will not have any problems with Therapy fodder. Lastly, as you see I put Mortarpod in place of Sword.xx is a meta call. I expect lots of x.1 crits running around which could help a lot.

A few things:
1) Should I put in Batterskull for added muscle?
2) Is Jace really needed? I plan to take out 1 Blossom and 1 Snap for either 2 Jace TMS, 1 Eslpeth and Sorin or either of the 2 as a 2 of.
3) Other than the endless tokens that can hold equipment, what is the advantage of the token version compared to Tom Martell’s list that uses a UW blade shell with the addition of Lingering Souls and a couple of discard? I plan to use this in an upcoming event and haven’t decided what version to play. Thanks in advance!

[rchinnock]

I've been toying with this list as something sort of like your list, and on the other hand something like Martel's. Its crazy in legacy how many choices there are and it was hard to me to choose what to cut for certain cards I wanted to play, like bitterblossom. Ultimately, snapcasters got the cut because I didn't want to play less Jace's, and because I didn't have enough fuel for them. And... Jace seems good with a lot of tokens? A lot of chump blockers helps ensure he can brainstorm over and over without having to bounce things, which is cool.

Things I'd maybe like to play - spell pierce, discard, a vindicate, snapcasters (but they take some work)...

4 bitterblossom
4 stoneforge mystic
3 vendillion clique
4 lingering souls
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 jace the mindsculptor

2 island
1 plains
1 scrubland
4 tundra
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 marsh flats
3 wasteland

[matunos]

I've been toying with this list as something sort of like your list, and on the other hand something like Martel's. Its crazy in legacy how many choices there are and it was hard to me to choose what to cut for certain cards I wanted to play, like bitterblossom. Ultimately, snapcasters got the cut because I didn't want to play less Jace's, and because I didn't have enough fuel for them. And... Jace seems good with a lot of tokens? A lot of chump blockers helps ensure he can brainstorm over and over without having to bounce things, which is cool.

Things I'd maybe like to play - spell pierce, discard, a vindicate, snapcasters (but they take some work)...

4 bitterblossom
4 stoneforge mystic
3 vendillion clique
4 lingering souls
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
3 jace the mindsculptor

2 island
1 plains
1 scrubland
4 tundra
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 marsh flats
3 wasteland

You need discard. Discard is one of the strongest components that black adds to the Stoneblade equation.

[rchinnock]

yeah, i was thinking that. It was either discard or more counters. But that does seem like it might be the right call. Maybe -3 spell snare, -1 force of will, +2 inquisition +2 thoughtseize, like Martel's list? I don't know though - counters do have their own kind of advantage that discard doesn't have, and I'm not sure you can fit both. Discard is more direct in some ways than something like spell snare, but counters give you a tempo advantage which can be cool. Force is free, AND makes them cast the spell. inquisition is not free, even though it is cheap, but then even again they also never have to cast the spell. Same goes with snare vs discard. Also no discard means you are less dependent upon black mana.

[matunos]

yeah, i was thinking that. It was either discard or more counters. But that does seem like it might be the right call. Maybe -3 spell snare, -1 force of will, +2 inquisition +2 thoughtseize, like Martel's list? I don't know though - counters do have their own kind of advantage that discard doesn't have, and I'm not sure you can fit both. Discard is more direct in some ways than something like spell snare, but counters give you a tempo advantage which can be cool. Force is free, AND makes them cast the spell. inquisition is not free, even though it is cheap, but then even again they also never have to cast the spell. Same goes with snare vs discard. Also no discard means you are less dependent upon black mana.

Permission is not necessarily a tempo gain, if you consider the number of plays you don't make so you can leave mana up. I suspect this is why tempo-oriented decks like Canadian Thresh rely heavily on free counters like FoW and Daze.

But yes, there is an interesting tension between permission-based control and disruption-based control. One thing to consider is that right now, disruption is cheaper. Inquisition is almost like a hard counter, since it can grab most problematic cards in Legacy, and Thoughtseize can grab almost everything (except lands, which can't be countered anyway). Meanwhile, blue's 1cc counters are all much more conditional: Spell Pierce can't hit creatures and becomes increasingly irrelevant over time; Spell Snare's limits are obvious.

And now there's this Cavern of Souls, which probably won't see wide play in Legacy, but who knows?

[sumbahdy]

Played Esperstone Blade with Maindeck Bitterblossoms rather than the conventional one with Snaps and SFM splash black in a recently concluded tourney in the Philippines. Total players were 107. Figured I could grind out the games and dodge the hate being thrown at Mav decks (white hate you know). Details are as follows:

My list for reference:
2 SNAPCASTER MAGE
3 STONEFORGE MYSTIC
1 BATTERSKULL
4 BITTERBLOSSOM
4 BRAINSTORM
1 CABAL THERAPY
3 FORCE OF WILL
2 INQUISITION OF KOZILEK
1 INTUITION
2 JACE, THE MIND SCULPTOR
3 LINGERING SOULS
2 PONDER
2 SPELL PIERCE
1 SPELL SNARE
4 SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES
2 UMEZAWA'S JITTE
1 ACADEMY RUINS
2 CHROME MOX
2 FLOODED STRAND
2 ISLAND
1 MARSH FLATS
1 PLAINS
3 POLLUTED DELTA
1 SCRUBLAND
1 SWAMP
3 TUNDRA
3 UNDERGROUND SEA
3 WASTELAND

Round 1: Osmond Go with Thopter Combo
G1: I amass a number of Spirit tokens vial Lingering Souls but he counters with a Vedalken Shackles with Humilty on the board eating away my tokens 2 at a time. I conceded to save time.
G2: He got overrun with Fae and Spirit Tokens.
G3: I opened with Inquisition on Ensnaring Bridge. Critical play: I see that he has not enough gas to race me so I opted to Surgical the brainstorms instead of the Ennaring Bridge. We went to the last 5 turns and he was down to one and top decked the other Bridge that I can't do anything about. Game ended on a draw.

0-0-1

Round 2: Esperblade Mirror (Tom Martell's list)
G1: We played Draw Go for sometime and he reveals that he is also playing Esper Stoneblade like me. I eventually got overran by spirits wielding a Batterskull.
G2: We boarded in almost the same and reached a stalemate for a time. A Batterskull for his and a Jitte for my Jitte. He eventually hits his Souls and won from there.

0-1-1

Round 3: MBC
G1: He casts a bunch of Vampires and a Hexmage. I luckily called a blind Therapy for Go For The Throat which he was holding 2 copies. Faes started to pop per turn chumping the Vampires and a Batterskull wielding Fae did it for me.
G2: Almost same as the previous he has no answer for Bitterblossom as he was stuck on 2 lands and got overran by Faeries and Souls.
* I think this is a budget MBC deck with no wastelands. I was puzzled that he let me draw from Jace multiple times with a Hexmage in play. Lucky me
1-1-1

Round 4: BANT enchantment deck
G1: I got an early Bitterblossom going and he answered with a Troll Ascetic. Chumping the Ascetic, he eventually landed a Geist and an echantment that gives the ascetic +2/+2 and flying. Couldn't keep up with him as my STP's were useless.
G2: Mulligan to 5 and got stuck with 2 lands and a bunch of removal. When I reached 3 lands, a Geist was flying over me and an Ascetic. Last ditched effort: at 4 lands Snapcaster Mage for Edict was Spell Pierced and I die.
1-2-1

Round 5: MBC
G1: I kept a hand of 2 Inqui and 1 Therapy with plains and swamp. Saw Ritual, Hymn and a HAUNTING ECHOES. Hate bear.dec. Won through discarding everything in sight and on the back of Fae tokens.
G2: I got hit by Extirpate on Ponder(no idea why), Sadistic Sacrament on 2 Blossoms and 1 SFM, and Haunting Echoes on Delta, SFM and 2 others. WTF. Luckily I was holding all the equipments and the lone bitterblossom left and stabilized from there. Intuition for 3 Souls is da bomb.
2-2-1

Round 6: GW Tron
G1: Dragging game with him going online Turn 3 casting Wurmcoil Engine. I am ahead by 1 turn in Fae production so I got to chump the Wurm easily. He made a mistake of using Karn's ability to kill the Germ Token instead of Batterskull nad eventually I overrun him with a horde of flying spirits and Fae wielding Batterskull.
G2: He opened with Land expedition map and I played a land. I was holding Wasteland already and drew Surgical Extraction hitting Mine and left him to hard cast everything the normal way. Last 5 turns was called and he emptied my board with a timely all is dust. on the 4th turn he cast Emrakul and while on the stack, I edict his Primeval Titan away and let Emrakul resolve. He can't kill me so I took the match.

3-2-1

Round 7: Dredge
G1: I opened with plains and he opened with a City of Brass into Faithless Looting and an LED. 2 turns later we were off to G2.
G2: Boarded in 8 and I mean EIGHT cards against him and drew nothing but blanks. Mulled to 6 into a hand with 2 brainstorm, chrome, 2 wasteland and something else. His first dredges were also blanks but eventually won since mine were worse.

3-3-1

Overall, I like the deck. The direction is strictly different to the one that Tom Martell made popular. This has close resemblance to the Joe Bernal used to make top 8 in 2 SCG opens if am not mistaken. What I did was make a hybrid of both to see the interactions. Fun to play with but here are some of the changes I would make:
1) I will take out Force of Will already. The deck plays a lot like BW tokens only with splash blue. All my games I took them out and were hardly a factor against what I have faced. Might come back eventually depends on the meta I guess.
2) Stick to discard effects. It is better to become proactive than just wait for their threats to land. The Discard along with Pierce and Snare are enough to deal with them anyway. Tokens will eventually outnumber them.
3) Both decks cannot coexist. The role you play will greatly differs since the Tom's build has the mindset of UW stoneblade that splashed black. Joe's however is BW with splash blue making it the minority. With my build, Joe's design is better and I think suited to my play style.
4) I would like to try this with the new Miracle cards that will be released. The deck has potential given a few more practice runs.

Any suggestions?

[matunos]

If you have 8 GY hate cards and don't see any of them, why stop mulling at 6? I say you keep going. You almost have to, since without hate you're at such a disadvantage.

You might try replacing the Snapcasters, an maybe even Jace, with Bobs. Especially if you're dropping FoW.

[rchinnock]

How about this?

4 stoneforge mystic
1 umezawa's jittte
1 batterskull
3 snapcaster mage
4 lingering souls
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 swords to plowshares
4 spell snare
4 force of will
3 jace, the mindsculptor
4 brainstorm
2 ponder

4 underground sea
3 tundra
2 scrubland
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 marsh flats
1 swamp
1 plains
1 island
1 karakas

[sumbahdy]

@Matunos
Thanks for the reply. Am actually leaning towards this list and testing it right now:

TX Esperblade 4.0
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Chrome Mox
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution

@rchinnock
Nice list but isnt Bob+fow a bit suicide? Also I've seen lists running Chrome for the 1st turn bob and others doesn't it also warrant inclusion in this?

[ZeinVoncy]

just recently put this decktype together and I was thinking about a single card with the rise of power in the form of Life from the Loam and decline in power of Hymn to Tourach, wouldn't Gerrard's Verdict be a decent consideration. I know it's 2cc, but this deck runs a bunch of 1cc and 2cc, would it fit in? Again, I'm new the arch type and am still getting last minute pieces.

[matunos]

just recently put this decktype together and I was thinking about a single card with the rise of power in the form of Life from the Loam and decline in power of Hymn to Tourach, wouldn't Gerrard's Verdict be a decent consideration. I know it's 2cc, but this deck runs a bunch of 1cc and 2cc, would it fit in? Again, I'm new the arch type and am still getting last minute pieces.

If you were going that route, why not Castigate?

[ZeinVoncy]

If you were going that route, why not Castigate?

I'd rather go Extract b/c it's at least a 1cc 1 for 1. Castigate is a 2cc 1 for 1 where at least Gerrard's Verdict is a 2cc 2 for 1.
I feel that if you're going to use a more then 1 mana for discard, it should hit more then 1 card. Why I suggest Gerrard's Verdict is b/c a person playing with Life from the Loam will have no issue pitching lands, we at least would gave life from it.

[Arsenal]

Forgive me for not knowing, but what difference is there between UWB Esperblade and the UWB lists I see in the Blade Control thread? I've been reading through both threads and many UWB lists in the threads look very, very similar to each other.

[Vacrix]

I'd rather go Extract b/c it's at least a 1cc 1 for 1.
I actually really like the idea of running Extract along side Snapcaster Mage. You can find the opponent's Loams, Jace's, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, etc. You can also fuck up the most optimal Intuition piles.

[ZeinVoncy]

I actually really like the idea of running Extract along side Snapcaster Mage. You can find the opponent's Loams, Jace's, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, etc. You can also fuck up the most optimal Intuition piles.

I've been a long time fan of Extract honestly, and along side the limited 1cc rfg cards out there, Snapcaster becomes another personal all time favorite of mine.

[matunos]

I actually really like the idea of running Extract along side Snapcaster Mage. You can find the opponent's Loams, Jace's, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, etc. You can also fuck up the most optimal Intuition piles.

Extract doesn't much speak to me. Cast once, it only disrupts a small number decks relying on one or two cards. Cast twice, it can disrupt a little more, mess up Intuition plans, etc., but that's still a subset of decks and a significant resource investment (compared to, say, Cranial Extraction). Extract is card disadvantage, and it does nothing to cards your opponent already has in hand or graveyard.

Surgical Extraction completely nukes Intuition for everything except Progenitus (including Emrakul, since that's a trigger), esp. if cast EOT like it normally is. It's potentially card advantage (typically 2:1 post Intuition), strips cards from graveyard (which against many decks is tantamount to card advantage) and library. It's an instant. It combos great with discard effects as well as Snapcaster.

All that, and, it's free(*).

(*) May result in some loss of life.

[ZeinVoncy]

I look at Extract as card information, you get to remove a card of your choice and you can look through your opponents library to see what your up against and what you can expect. A player that knows an opponents decktype can even determine a few cards that could or could not be in their hand as well. You're right that 1 or 2 hits won't majorly swing the game into your favor, but I feel that if you combine it with Snapcaster or Surgical Extraction, you would know how to best utilize your spells against your opponent.

[dsck]

I look at Extract as card information, you get to remove a card of your choice and you can look through your opponents library to see what your up against and what you can expect. A player that knows an opponents decktype can even determine a few cards that could or could not be in their hand as well. You're right that 1 or 2 hits won't majorly swing the game into your favor, but I feel that if you combine it with Snapcaster or Surgical Extraction, you would know how to best utilize your spells against your opponent.

You should be able to do this from seeing what your opponent does in his first few turns, no need to waste a card for that.

[Cotes16]

I look at Extract as card information, you get to remove a card of your choice and you can look through your opponents library to see what your up against and what you can expect. A player that knows an opponents decktype can even determine a few cards that could or could not be in their hand as well. You're right that 1 or 2 hits won't majorly swing the game into your favor, but I feel that if you combine it with Snapcaster or Surgical Extraction, you would know how to best utilize your spells against your opponent.

With surgical extraction you search graveyard, hand, and library...so you do not need to determinate: you SEE those cards!

In my opinion there is no way extract is better than surgical:
-cost equal or less
-is instant and not sorcery
-have a better effect

[ZeinVoncy]

You should be able to do this from seeing what your opponent does in his first few turns, no need to waste a card for that.

In your opponents first few games, the game can already be over. Not always the case, but it is in some. Information does a lot and not every decktype is exactly the same. Personally, I would rather take advantage of what I'm looking at and get rid of their card advantage (taking out Lingering Souls in the mirror or a copy of bomb card like Show and Tell, etc) Yes they may run 4 copies of said cards, but that's nailing a SnT before they can use it and I think that's great, otherwise it's more often then not, they play it and it's GG, next. The percentage of them drawing a card that you don't want to see reduced and that saves us a needed counter or answer before even needing to worry about it.
It's not game breaking, I agree, the card is not nuts, but in the long run, it's worth it's value. If my opponent is only running 1 copy of Scavenging Ooze and 4 copies of Green Sun's Zenith, I'd remove the Ooze and not have to worry about it. That's big I'd say.
What exactly does Gitaxian Probe do? 2 life, See opponents hand and draw a card. No one wants Probe just to pay 2 life and draw a card, seeing your opponents hand gives us information on how to play out the next few turns. Or as you say, just wait a few turns and hope they haven't established control at that point.
Information is valuable, that's all I'm trying to say.


With surgical extraction you search graveyard, hand, and library...so you do not need to determinate: you SEE those cards!

In my opinion there is no way extract is better than surgical:
-cost equal or less
-is instant and not sorcery
-have a better effect

I agree, never stated it Extract was better, it's just another option to consider.

If you have an opening hand with Surgical Extraction, the card is dead until a card in the graveyard. So not only is it dead at that point, but you must wait for them to play something relevant and wait for it go to the bin. Whether is be permanent or spell. Surgical Extraction is 10x better if you have an opening hand with a 1cc discard outlet. Extract by itself is useful. Understand where I am coming from?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, OMG! We NEED to run 4x of this card! I'm saying give a test run and see if it truly is worthwhile to run or not with Snapcaster's.

[matunos]

In your opponents first few games, the game can already be over.

I assume you meant "first few turns". If the game is over in the first few turns, your Extract was worse than worthless.


What exactly does Gitaxian Probe do? 2 life, See opponents hand and draw a card. No one wants Probe just to pay 2 life and draw a card, seeing your opponents hand gives us information on how to play out the next few turns. Or as you say, just wait a few turns and hope they haven't established control at that point.
Information is valuable, that's all I'm trying to say.

There's two big differences between Extract and Gitaxian Probe: (1) Probe tells you what's in the opponent's hand, and (2) as a cantrip, Probe replaces itself. Knowing what's in the opponent's hand is much more relevant than knowing what's in their deck. Not that the latter is worthless, but it's not as important, and there are other cards that achieve that same effect (i.e. Surgical Extraction). If you just want to know what's in their deck, you can surgically extract a fetchland or the first thing that lands in their yard.


If you have an opening hand with Surgical Extraction, the card is dead until a card in the graveyard. So not only is it dead at that point, but you must wait for them to play something relevant and wait for it go to the bin. Whether is be permanent or spell. Surgical Extraction is 10x better if you have an opening hand with a 1cc discard outlet. Extract by itself is useful. Understand where I am coming from?

You're correct about Surgical Extraction and discard. You're wrong about Extract. I mean you can argue that just about any card is useful by itself, Chimney Imp, say. But that doesn't mean you want it in your deck. There are many other 1cc spells I'd rather see than Extract, whether it be Surgical Extraction, discard, Ponder, Brainstorm, even Gitaxian Probe. You can't have them all. And remember, the original assertion was that Extract is great with Snapcaster. Well, after the first casting, you already know the contents of their deck, so now youre just removing one more card (that's not in their hand). And as the game goes on, Extract only gets worse. All of those other alternatives offer much more value in multiples when flashedback.

Are there some corner cases where an Extract can seal the game? Maybe. But thy are few and far between. It's not like a Show and Tell deck can't operate with one less Show and Tell or Intuition or Emrakul. They're just not that fragile. If you can remove all of some of those cards, however, including from their hand, and at instant speed, then you definitely have a leg up.

[ZeinVoncy]

I assume you meant "first few turns". If the game is over in the first few turns, your Extract was worse than worthless.


Yes, thank you for pointing that out the typo. Extract would prevent a combo person from going off, that 1 card then need to win is exiled.


And remember, the original assertion was that Extract is great with Snapcaster. Well, after the first casting, you already know the contents of their deck, so now youre just removing one more card (that's not in their hand).

Actually, the original assertion was:

I'd rather go Extract b/c it's at least a 1cc 1 for 1. Castigate is a 2cc 1 for 1 where at least Gerrard's Verdict is a 2cc 2 for 1.
I feel that if you're going to use a more then 1 mana for discard, it should hit more then 1 card. Why I suggest Gerrard's Verdict is b/c a person playing with Life from the Loam will have no issue pitching lands, we at least would gave life from it.
As getting worse in the game, that's any discard in general. I do see the valid point in the debate though, the card just isn't up to snuff. I would still use it over Castigate though. The subject just went on longer then normal b/c someone agreed that in certain matchups, Extract could shine.


I actually really like the idea of running Extract along side Snapcaster Mage. You can find the opponent's Loams, Jace's, Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, etc. You can also fuck up the most optimal Intuition piles.

On the other hand, there a MANY cards that can shine in certain match ups that are not used. I suppose this just clears up a SCD: Extract.

[kohulk]

So this weekend their is a legacy event and if my scedule allow it this is the deck I will I will be playing:

Lands 22
1-Swamp
1-Plains
1-Island
4-Marsh Flats
3-Polluted Delta
3-Underground Sea
2-Tundra
1-Scrubland
2-Glacial Fortress
1-Academy Ruins
1-Tolaria West
1-Karakas
1-Moorland Haunt

Cretures 7
4-Stoneforge Mystic
3-Snapcaster Mage

Spells 27
4-Sword to Plowshares
1-Path to Exile
4-Brainstorm
4-Force of Will
2-Daze
2-Spell Snare
1-Spell Pierce
2-Enlightened Tutor
3-Bitterblossom
3-Thopter Foundry
1-Humility

Artifacts 4
1-Umez Jitte
1-Batterskull
1-Sword of the Meek
1-Eng Exp

SB 15
2-Extirpate
1-Surg Extr
1-Grafdig Cage
1-COP:Red
1-Eng Expl
4-Dark Confidant
1-Spell Pierce
2-Flusterstorm
2-Innocent Blood

Pros: Really low mana curve. No Jaces or Cliques make it much more easier to avoid mana denial plans (stifle, wastelands and so).
-->ThoperCombo. A long forgotten combo that shines in todays "no combo" metagame. After a ten day testing I only lost once when I untapped with both pieces.
--> Doesn't rely so much οn Thopter (as counterbalance does) because it has bitterblossom+equipment.
--> Strong game against Maverick and other creature decks. Stands pretty good against MonoRed Burn (Can recover much easier from low life). Fights easy random decks like Pox/Enchantress, but needs testing for these matchups.
--> No wastelands plan help early curving while avoiding choke efects in G2/3. Adding more duals is optional but I use 6 as the minimum and haven't felt I really-really needed more.

Cons: Really bad match against BUG Control.
--> Thopter can be a dead card (vs Lingering Souls)
--> Enlightened Tutor+Force of Will is card disadvantage but still are way to good to cut. In G2/3 I try to fix this depending on what the opponent is playing.
--> Light vs dedicated combos, but that can change with other SB plans. It all comes done to what you are expecting.
--> Don't know what Miracles will do to the metagame. I really love TimeWalk2 but I don't have any at the moment.

Plz feel free to make any suggestions from experience (and not just random thoughts), and wish me good luck :smile:

[rchinnock]

4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
4 bitterblossom
4 lingering souls
4 force of will
4 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 marsh flats
2 island
1 plains
3 wasteland

[matunos]

So this weekend their is a legacy event and if my scedule allow it this is the deck I will I will be playing:

Lands 22
1-Swamp
1-Plains
1-Island
4-Marsh Flats
3-Polluted Delta
3-Underground Sea
2-Tundra
1-Scrubland
2-Glacial Fortress
1-Academy Ruins
1-Tolaria West
1-Karakas
1-Moorland Haunt

Cretures 7
4-Stoneforge Mystic
3-Snapcaster Mage

Spells 27
4-Sword to Plowshares
1-Path to Exile
4-Brainstorm
4-Force of Will
2-Daze
2-Spell Snare
1-Spell Pierce
2-Enlightened Tutor
3-Bitterblossom
3-Thopter Foundry
1-Humility

Artifacts 4
1-Umez Jitte
1-Batterskull
1-Sword of the Meek
1-Eng Exp

SB 15
2-Extirpate
1-Surg Extr
1-Grafdig Cage
1-COP:Red
1-Eng Expl
4-Dark Confidant
1-Spell Pierce
2-Flusterstorm
2-Innocent Blood


TL;DR version: -1 Moorland Haunt, -1 Tolaria West, -3 Thopter Foundry, -1 Sword of the Meek, -1 Jace, +4 (or more) discard (IoK, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and/or Duress), +1-2 Intangible Virtue (you could even drop a Bitterblossom or 2 for them); maybe an additional -2-3 JTMs, -1-2 FoW, +4 Bobs main, +1-2 SDT, and then more room in sideboard (e.g. Perish, Zealous Persecution, Cursed Totem, etc.)

Moorland Haunt here is just awful. You have 7 creature cards in your whole deck, and this is a format where your guys will get exiled almost as often as they get killed. Haunt is just useless with that low a count. I've played around a bit with Haunt with some more creatures, and it's still bad. You really need a lot of creatures to make it worthwhile.

I'm not feeling the Tolaria West. Realisitically, you have 2 things mainboard that you can tutor for with it (Karakas and EE) and potentially one more EE from the board. Okay, there's Moorland Haunt and Academy Ruins, too, but bleh, those are rarely going to save your ass (which can be the case for Karakas and EE). Transmuting for 3 (2 blue!) at sorcery speed with so few legitimate targets just feels really bad; I think you really have to have more silver bullets to justify it (like Chalice of the Void, but obviously this deck isn't gonna want that).

If you're that afraid of Emrakul, run a 2nd Karakas, or (better, IMO), a Phyrexian Metamorph in the SB (or Phantasmal Image, but Metamorph is more versatile). It can kill Progenitus, Geist, and various other things that Karakas can't touch and that are out of reach for EE. The other week I used one to copy an Inkwell Leviathan against Reanimator and race to victory. (I also used one to copy a Batterskull against High Tide and race to victory, but I'm less proud of that, cause I didn't mean to board it in.)

Humility is good in a dedicated Thopter deck, but it nullifies your SFM and Snapcasters. I think it's not necessary, and you should consider other options. Even Moat might be a good alternative, if you know you can rely on the tokens, but you have to consider Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night hindering those plans (for the Lingering Souls; Bitterblossom is a good defense, but its slow; I'll get to Thopter combo shortly). The common downside to both Humility and Moat is the double white, and (to a lesser extent) the 4cc. I'd consider Intangible Virtue. It's rarely expected, and even more rare for your opponent to have an answer for it, especially maindeck. It's 2cc and at 1 white, much easier to cast. The downside, of course, is that it ruins the Thopter Sword combo...

Which brings me to the Thopter Sword combo. I've tried to think of ways of fitting it in, at least maindeck to be sided out after G1, but I just can't do it. It's slow to put together, especially if you're not running a list dedicated to putting it together quickly. (E.g E-Tutor, Tezzeret, etc.). It gives you inevitability if you can keep it alive, but it's not a lock (unless maybe you also play Ashnod's Altar for instantly unbounded life/thopters). It's also easy to disrupt, especially if you only have the one Sword of the Meek and the one Academy Ruins. Maverick has all the tools to destroy that set up maindeck, with Qasali, Ooze (to remove your SotM before its trigger can resolve), KotR (to get a Wasteland for your Ruins), etc. Most decks these days have some form graveyard hate, which is relevant against Lingering Souls, too. And once they dismantle your combo, neither foundry nor SotM are that good by themselves (you may even have trouble getting the combo going if they destroy your SotM first and you have no other artifacts to sac to the foundry).

Thus, I would ditch the Thopter Sword as too cute (although, if you're gonna stick with Thopter Sword, I think Sword of Feast and Famine really shines here, cause it let's you untap to provide more fuel for the foundry). You're going to vividly remember those games where you unleashed an unstoppable army of Thopters, but don't let confirmation bias fool you: more often you're going to have a brick in your hand, or worse, you're going to invest a lot of time and resources into assembling the combo just to watch it be dismantled into its mediocre constituents.

In its place, add the most important thing black adds to the UW stoneblade list: discard. Discard is an awesome first-turn play (especially if you're on the play); it let's us tap out and play on curve more often, and it only gets better with Snapcaster. Inquisition, Thoughtseize, even Cabal Therapy are options given the number of tokens you'll have from Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls.

Also, 4 Jaces seems like 1 too many. And with 4 Bobs in the SB, it's more like 1-4 too many. You could get by dropping Jace altogether and moving Bob to be a starter, especially if you can fit some SDTs in. You could drop 1-2 FoW for those.

Update: Oops, looks like I got my lists confused wrt Jace. Move the Bobs to starting position. You have no reason not to.

[JimmyC27]

Has anyone tried Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in this deck as a 1x or 2x?

[nyquiz]

Been running a list for the past few weeks that was derived from a combination of UW and a UWb list from one of the SCGs. Been posting pretty good results in local tournaments. Here is the list, would enjoy feedback or thoughts.

Lands: 21

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Riptide Laboratory

Creatures: 8

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells: 20

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vindicate
1 Zealous Persecution

Enchantments: 4

4 Bitterblossom

Artifacts: 5

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers: 2

2 Jace TMS

Sideboard:
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia/Meddling Mage
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Diabolic Edict
1 PtE
1 Relic of Prog


The overall point here against most decks is inevitability with bitterblossom/lingering souls and jitte (edit: forgot to mention how good T1 Bitterblossom/SFM can be, as if we need to be reminded). I've had very positive results against RUG Delver as nimble mongoose is horrible at dealing with tokens and delver is just as bad. Yes they maybe able to get me to a low life total but pre board they really don't have anyway to interact with jitte, and STP is a fine way to deal with Delver. Goyf can be a bit of a problem (especially if they counter a Bitterblossom) but with STP and jitte one can grind the game out.

Combo isn't particularly good for this deck but it isn't horrible either. Cabal therapy + tokens put in some work here. Therapy slows them down a few turns which usually provides enough time to get BB active to turn on therapy flashback and Spellstutter Sprite. We are not favored game one but chrome mox is also a good tool to speed up the game plan and works well with Thalia or Meddling Mage out of the board.

I don't have a ton of Sneak and Show decks in my meta but I imagine that would be a problem and is also why I'd prefer meddling mage in the board. Other than random combo the other tough match up is Maverick.

To the previous post, I've tried Sorin in this version and I didn't like him in the deck at all. I think the main reason I don't like him is because I already have enough token producers, the tokens from Sorin don't have evasion, and he just doesn't have a big enough board impact right away like Jace can. In decks where they have ways to deal with tokens (i.e. Sulfur elemental, EE, Deed) it's seemed even worse.

[JimmyC27]

I played Sorin a couple weeks here at a local. He was really good in the aggro matches for the chump blockers and life gain. Also, the black tokens were relevant in match ups that sided in Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. However, that hate seems to have dropped off the radar.

Per your list, I've found I never want more than 3 Bitterblossoms, because they usually seem to be dead cards in multiples. I realize some people run them as a 4x though, because it's a really good two drop you want to maximize seeing on turn two.

[nyquiz]

I think that a 3-of for BB is possible but I ALWAYS want to see it by turn two, Ideally turn one with a chrome mox which is pretty tough to beat for most decks. Also multiples of BB can always be pitched to CMox if necessary. Bottom line for this build is that BB needs to get active in order to win. SFM is obviously really good but most match ups where it shines people have removal for it MD whereas they don't for enchantments.

I think with BB and a lack of other creatures Sorin is poorly placed in this deck. Ideally I'd want to use him in a deck that has more than 9 creatures. I think BB takes care of the diversity for white creature hate, and I've found that right now MOM is more of a reason to have two different colored creatures than the RUG sideboard.

CMox is also an all-star, I've probably got a 80%-90% winrate in games where I get a T1 BB or SFM (if I can untap with it).

[copywriter]

Hi everyone

Has this thread died? Esper seems alive and kicking!
Perhaps the discussion has moved to the Blade Control thread in DTB?

I would love to discuss Esper since I strongly considering it for GP Gent.

Thanks.

[mike1987]

Hi everyone

Has this thread died? Esper seems alive and kicking!
Perhaps the discussion has moved to the Blade Control thread in DTB?

I would love to discuss Esper since I strongly considering it for GP Gent.

Thanks.

QFT, my friend has been thinking of building an esperblade deck. Does anyone has an updated decklist? Thanks!

[Thorondor]

I am testing this list atm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24432-My-Last-Article-About-Stoneblade-Ever-I-Promise-GP-Atlanta-12th.html


\\Main
\\Artifacts
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

\\Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

\\Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

\\Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

\\Sorceries
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

\\Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas


\\Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Perish
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God


I really like it, maybe I will make some modifications and bring it to GP gent, dunno yet.

[matunos]

I am testing this list atm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24432-My-Last-Article-About-Stoneblade-Ever-I-Promise-GP-Atlanta-12th.html


\\Main
\\Artifacts
1 Batterskull
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

\\Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

\\Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

\\Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

\\Sorceries
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize

\\Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Dust Bowl
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas


\\Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Intuition
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Perish
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God


I really like it, maybe I will make some modifications and bring it to GP gent, dunno yet.

I like the looks of it, and Ben's explanations, for everything except the Dust Bowl (and maybe the Riptide... I know its great in theory with Clique and Snapcaster, but I've rarely found it all that great in practice; maybe if you're running Spellstutters and Mutavaults...

I realize Dust Bowl presents a continual threat, but 4 mana (3 mana + 1 virtual mana from the Dust Bowl itself) seems so high. I'd just make that a Wasteland (and probably make the Riptide a Wasteland too), and find a way to move the Vindicate into the main deck. That should be enough to deal with problematic lands.

[mike1987]

I am thinking of maindecking EE as well but i am playing lingering souls. Not sure if it will be counterintuitive though.

[matunos]

I am thinking of maindecking EE as well but i am playing lingering souls. Not sure if it will be counterintuitive though.

If you have souls out and they're doing work, don't cast EE for 0 (remember, it's not like Pernicious Deed, the cmc has to be exactly equal to the number of counters).

[JBlaze]

I would find room for a couple of ponders. They really smooth out your draws and play great with Snapcaster Mage. Cut the counter spell and maybe one Engineered Explosives for them

[Mono_Thematic]

Has anyone tried out Augur of Bolas. He's very similar to SCM sans the flash.
Between the two of them having dudes to carry equipment is never a problem, and 3-sized butt makes for good stalling against aggro decks.
For reference here would be my suggested pile:

Land: 22. nothing fancy, keep it consistant
4 flooded strands
3 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
2 tundra
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
2 swamp
3 plains
5 island

Creatures: 10
4 augur of bolas
4 snapcaster mage
3 stoneforge mystic

Equipment: 2
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X + Y

Spells: 26
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 mana leak
4 thoughtseize/IoK/Duress

I know the mana leak count is pretty high, but I find they usually get dropped to FoW in the early going and have plenty of value later on.
Maybe -2 Mana Leak -> +2 Vendilion Clique ?

I'm mainly just curious about everyone's thoughts about it.
-Mono

[klaus]

Has anyone tried out Augur of Bolas.?
Baleful Strix is strixctly better. You always get the extra card (w/o setup) and equipped 1/1 flyers are way scarier than 1/3 bears. Also: deathtouch.

[Thorondor]

I think this deck will be back in DTB forum soon.
Was on 2 small tourneys this weekend:
Saturday: 4 - 0 - 1 (Intentional Draw) can't remember the matchups. 17 people
Sunday: 4 - 1 - 1 (40 people)

played this list:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/8975#123132

only change SB -1 Wrath of god, +1 Spell pierce, was expecting lot more combo, did not get paired against it.^^

mus:
1. elves:
no jitte maindeck hurts, still manage to pull of a win in game 1, killing his important dudes with stp an putting pressure with batterskull and sword of feast an famine.
game 2 I keep a weak hand with perish on turn 3, but he goes of on hist turn 3 and hardcasts emrakul
game 3, I get jitte online and have an easy win

2. affinity:
game 1, again no jitte maindeck hurts, I have batterskull and sword of feast an famine but 6 life every round are not enough against plating on orni and tezzeret. :-/
game 2, jitte wins and I have enough disruption
game 3, he mulligans and keeps a real bad hand, I land jace on turn 4 and fateseal since I did kill his only 2 creatures.

3. Reanimator:
sooooo easy, but I was lucky
game 1: I have discard (aim on animate dead), he entombs iona and still has reanimate, I brainstorm 2 times end of turn with one fetchland finding karakas and stp in the second brainstorm! he gitaxian probes me next turn, sees karakas, jace, stp and I am on 3 mana already, he pass, I snap want to play inquistion of kozilek he spell pierce, I karakas go, he draw go, I jace go, gg

game 2: I have a stp, brainstorm, karakas and humility main, but no counter and no discard, I hope he goes for show and tell plan, and he does, I brainstorm in response looking for some backup just in case, I show and tell humility he griselbrand, yeaaaaah! One turn later he concedes actually having no outs against humility, since he did not board any bounce spells.

4. Maverick
i lose :-/ even with this sideboarde, game one is weird he is flooded but has horizon canopy 2 noble hierach and dryad arbor so I get some beatdown but I also get flooded as hell and only draw discard. :-/
game 2: I keep a weak hand with perish, 1 stp, 1 path but only 2 lands, he plays thalia on turn 2 and also did wasteland once, I never get into the game. :-/

5. UW miracle
first game he stabilize with top cb, actually was very lucky to blind CB my geist with entreat. :-/ I concede with no cards in hand and only lands in play, want to win the next 2 games.
game 2: geist gets there, i have enough counters, vindicate on CB and disenchant on porphyry nodes.
game 3: we have about 9 min left, no one wins on time, I am maybe slightly ahead....

6. Infect
game 1: no jitte maindeck huuuuurts. I still pull of a win on 9 poision counters, with brainstorm, ponder, brainstorm finally finding wasteland and swords for hie evil flying nexus and unblockable 1/1 infect....
game 2: he has rod against jitte, but I resolve humility and crush in with spirit tokens and mystic, was enough to win!

deck feels really strong, maybe I would add a fourth snapcaster removing one thoughtseize and also thinking about adding 2 explosives and one academy ruins, but don't know what to cut. Also not sure if geist or clique, geist one me one game were clique would not have done it.

[Idoru]

I have lots of ideas for my deck, and i need your guys's input on alot of the new cards that could possibly fit into this list.

My current list

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Spellstutter Sprite

3x bitterblossom
1x Lingering Souls

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Inquisition (will be a few thoughtsiezes eventually)
4x force of will
4x brainstorm
2x ponder
2x surgical extraction
1x vindicate

1x batterskull
1x umezaw's jite
1x Sword... usually B&M or F&I or F&F (depends on who's ass i whoopin)

Rest lands, pretty basic, i don't have alot of dual' and no wasteland. (im broke. :3)

Ok..this deck does me really well. it can usually stand toe to toe with fully built legacy "decks to beat"

First... Spellstutter vs Other conventional counters, i would like to run 8 counters including FoW, I could see using daze if i had snapcaster, i used to run force spike, but... so rarely would the opponent be in a position where they didn't have the 1 mana to tap.

I have seen no real discussion about Illusory Angel and Baleful Strix.. I feel Illusory Angel could be a good replacement for Lingering Souls ( i run between 1-4 LS in my deck, and have been trying to decide if i should pick some up) Having a 4/4 beater for same cost as LS to me sounds... awesome. although... the ability to have 4 1/1s to chump block when things get nasty is... also awesome.

Is Bob still worth it in this tri colored deck?

Also unsure if i should drop surgical extraction for say... Jace..

Other cards i constantly consider, Bob, Clique, Geist, Snapcaster, Entreat the Angels and Temporal Mastery, Jace.

Most wins i get with Delver in first few turns, often with jitte. If the game goes longer, it usually ends with a faerie or spirit token beating face with batterskull ftw. (the delvers get picked off pretty quick once they transform if they haven't already killed my opponent.)

Any way, i really need some input, as i have some money to take my deck to the next level, and i'd really like to set my choice in surreal stone before i buy/trade. >;3

(Also.. What about mindbomb/bump in the night... if only they were instances... i could see a brutal redsplash version with mindbomb and lightningbolt.)

[guybrush3]

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=974483
what do u think about this?

[matunos]

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=974483
what do u think about this?

Looks terrible, but it's also not Esper.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is what I'm currently testing.

ESPERBLADE 2K13

15
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (Heavy discard meta, lotta Hymns around; Call it a meta-slot)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate

21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

My sideboard is, as always, meta-dependent, so it's not any help, but I thought I would drop this EsperBomb and see if anyone picks up what I'm puttin down. So far, I'm loving it. So stupidly controlling.

-ABC

EDIT::: Current decklist as of 11/9/13.

[TheArchitect]

Nice necromancy, but I think you want this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21441-Deck-Blade-Control&p=763374#post763374

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No, I don't want to discuss the stupid differences between UWr, Esper, and straight UW. I know and like this version and don't want any discussion on any other variation of it. I want this discussion. Thanks, though.

-ABC

[Grand Superior]

I guess you brought this thread up because your list isn't traditional Blade Control with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, which is the most notable omission.

I'm actually liking the look of your list. I wonder about the second Vindicate (I feel like it'd be better as a Ponder or something). Three equipment also seems like much but I guess True-Name Nemesis makes it worth it. I'd maybe even replace an Island and a nonland card for 2 Wastelands for synergy with Deathrite Shaman. Just some first impressions. Lack of Jace seems off, but maybe it's okay.

I do like where this is going. I've been dying to try True-Name Nemesis in an Esper list but I didn't think shoehorning it into a traditional Esper Stoneblade is the answer. Keep us posted on how your testing goes.

[kingtk3]

Your deck looks very similar to deathblade swapping TNN with geist: did the absence of green made you post your list here?
BTW I think you should add one forest in order to have a chance to activate DRS against dredge and reanimator.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Jace isn't omitted. I dropped him to the board for now. I felt initially that I wanted to be more aggressive than he allowed me to be. 3 equipment is solid. I tried wasteland but I personally prefer to make sure I have a relevant turn one with discard, bs or pierce. I played this and death blade and never cared for wasteland because of its random nature as a 2-of and the lack of stifle. I will keep testing, but I hope others are putting in some time with like - minded builds. This has immaculate potential and I see it being a deck to beat in the near future. Thanks for your interest and kind words.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[rancOr_]

@Secretly.A.Bee

First off, nice to see U trying to make TNN work- nice list ! I have been trying to fit TNN in UWx stoneblade and I agree that DRS+SFM is where u want to be. So that makes 4 DRS,4SFM,4TNN as the core.
I have been testing ur list and I agree that there is a lot of potential in it. It plays like a traditional deathblade list. Although I have never liked that deck and always prefered Blade Control, TNN changed things around.
Some things I noticed while testing or that I would try differently:
- 3creature slots: Baleful Strix. I like this card but maybe its worth testing V.clique or even better Lingering Souls(this would lower the blue count,but might be huge to play both TNN and Lingering Souls as both have amazing synergy with the deck).
- Sometimes u are stuck with FoW. Same reason I have been playing 3 FoWs in Stoneblade the last 1.5 year. So I would suggest going to 3FoW MD and the 4th in sb.
- I would love 2 Ponders in here. It smooths ur draws alot and is always a good card to see. So I would suggest -1 FoW,-1 Vindicate, +2 Ponder(upping the U count +1).
- I dont think Karakas is needed anymore MD. U are not playing either V. Clique or Geist and the manabase can already be greedy at times. I'd replace it with a Tropical Island so u have a G to activate DRS's ability. I think this will benefit the deck way more than a potential(and even then prolly not good enough) answer to Emrakul/Griselbrand or bounce the occasional Thalia/Clique..

Greetings

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Trying this:
-1 Vindicate (I see stax, so I thought this would be better, but for testing's sake I will drop meta-choices to test)
-1 FoW
-1 Karakas (for regular testing I will drop it, but if you see it in here again, it's because of reasons below)
+2 Ponder
+1 Tropical Island

NOTE: I'm testing the one Trop because I can see it being useful with the DRS against Tin Fins, Reanimator. I will not be adding A. Decay, I hated it. If you want, necro the old DeathBlade thread and try your own builds with it there using Decay, but this thread should stay Decay-Free imho. I honestly feel that Decay was the deciding factor in Esper to Deathblade, not DRS. I know that's where it got it's name, but Decay caused huge amounts of warping and killed the blue control aspect, leaving a more permanent destruction aspect. I'm also fairly wary of the Trop, as it does open me up to Wasteland more on my blue mana count, which I was trying desperately to avoid. I want to be able to have UU available at all times so that I can drop any land and play TNN. Also, TNN + SoFI is insane. INSANE. Card advantage off of a 3-turn clock. Yes, please.

I play Tin Fins and this is what my girlfriend is now playing (BW SorinBlade didn't hold a candle to the Grizz, she wanted blue, this is what I made), and I started the list off with 4 FoW and a MisD because she's new to blue. This is a reason I kept the Karakas, although it has good play against DnT, Reanimator, and a few other lists as well. Also, I hate starting new lists off with less than 4 force until I know what I would prefer in the slot. I am curious to hear why you recommend dropping the Force rather than the MisD.

I don't want to do what every other TNN list is doing and that is going heavy on the 3-slot. It makes the deck top-heavy, and that's bad. I will post the Sideboard:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
3 RIP (Most people will be playing S. Extraction, this is actually me testing the card in the list. If it fails, I will be playing Extraction as well)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vindicate
1 Submerge

I am unsure of the sideboard right now, but testing will help me get it correct, it will just take me some time. I'm pretty sure I have a terrible game against Merfolk and Goblins. Going green makes the Spike/Timmy part of me go "Savage Summoning!" However, I digress, it's not something I am currently comfortable testing, I like my list too much at the moment to go test a jank rare that probably won't work out in this list. Also, I think I want 2 Meddling Mage in here, but I'm not sure where they would go (SB obv but what to drop.).

I won't be dropping Strix. V. Cliques come in for TNN against Storm and other aggressive combo lists. Strix is a catch-all that is a mighty beast with Sword of Fire and Ice, or the occasional Batterskull. It's rediculous. Strix comes out for 2 Flusterstorm, and 1 RIP (also out, 1 Vindicate, 1 StP for the last 2 RIP) in the Storm combo matchup.

Thanks again,

-ABC

[Ghost588]

In your testing have you missed Snapcaster Mage, EE, or Academy Ruins? I've brewed a list similar except I run three snaps, two Jaces, one Elspeth and only two Strix. I've had zero time to test but I really want to give Elspeth a try.
Also, how have pierces worked for you in this build? I dropped them a while back and really haven't missed them much.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I have never been a fan of SCM. I've owned 4 since pre-sale and I just can't appreciate them the way a lot of people do. It may be my playstyle, but honestly I prefer the Strix and the streamlined critter base. With DRS being HUGE in my meta, I prefer RIP and not getting my SCM vanilla'ed in response. I run 2x EE SB and I gotta say I do like the card, but even with it and Strix in the 75, I still just find A. Ruins a little cute. Maybe testing will show me otherwise, but I don't think its a great call, at least at this point. Seems good in theory with Decay being a thing...Geez, now I dunno about Ruins. I gotta test this for now, but I just hate the singleton that produces no colored mana....May be worth it, though, with 3 Equipment, Strix, and EE in the board. Maybe it's good in the board?

Also, I too am really interested in Elspeth, as well. I initially had my rough draft with her in the board. Maybe it's a good idea.

-ABC

[Ghost588]

I like ruins a lot. Even though it does produce colorless it's very handy. Granted, without EE main it might not be as useful, but it long games it's nice getting your equipment back. On the Elspeth thought, I've never been a fan on souls and loved Strix. I haven't played since June in Baltimore at SCG. I got 55th with my only losses being to Jund, dredge, and my friend on scape shift. Granted a lot has changed since then, I still think Strix is where you want to be. Also, Elspeth is hard to kill, provides you with defense, and makes anything into an evasive threat. The only reason I feel like EE needs to be MD is due to elves. As for Snapcaster, he's won me too many games to let go. I do hate cutting clique though, won so many games off her.
I'll post my list soon.
How has this been versus elves?

[Ghost588]

Here is what I'm currently considering:

Creatures 16
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

Spells 23

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Inquisition Kozilek
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sofi
1 Vindicate
1 EE

Lands 21
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't think I will ever understand running less than a full 4x TNN. Honestly, I've already had to pitch one and I don't think I will ever relish that, but I do know that I felt better knowing I had 4, and would probably run across (and in fact did) another one. You are in a different area of building than I am, but that's good for testing. Let me know how the Jace/Elspeth build goes. I wouldn't mind being able to MD my money cards again, but like I said, seems that it's too...control-oriented for a TNN based list. I love the Elspeth idea, can't stress that enough. Would SoLS be an option? Wouldn't mind a non-mana option of being able to grab back discarded Nemeses (plural of Nemesis), Strix, and etc. It's probably nothing, it's just that it's so tempting. It's always ended up being lack-luster, I'm just whining. Never mind me.

This is better than Geist, not just for obvious reasons of inviolability, but also for the simple fact that I landed a second one in a game. That was awesome. One had a sword on it, the other I left open for blocking and just wrecked it all. This is gonna get banned...

-ABC

[Ghost588]

I agree that my list is different from yours. I've always been on the more controlling aspect of the deck and it took me forever to cut the 4th force of will. However, once school slows down I will definitely post results from my local meta. I am always split on esper because I always want to control, but with so many good creatures to use and spells it's hard to just go one route. I hate deathblade with a passion, but I feel like DRS and TNN need to be together in a shell like this once TNN new flavor runs off. Esper has always had great matches against almost everything aside from Turbo Eldrazi or Scapeshift and other random decks. I like the direction we are both going and DRS gives us even more in the late game as an ult. win con. I might drop the vindicate add another TNN, but I am unsure about that. It is always nice to remove anything. I also agree with the fourth Thoughtseize in your build. So many times I have IoK only yo not be able to grab EtW, Sneak Attack, Jace, etc. And with DRS to help the life loss we are in a much better position. I use to run a singleton counter spell in my list prior, and I am wondering if it has a place in here now. Hitting UU has never been a problem in the past.

I agree totally on your Geist comment. Geist was also SB for me and I only really brought it in vs. Jund and Miracles. I do like SolS, but I feel like Sofi does everything better. I would recommend SoFaF over SolS honesty. IMO SoFaF has been house in my SB and won so many matches against combo and midrange decks. Jace bounce their threat and swing at them so they pitch it. If I was going to any tourney I would have SoFaF in SB and Notion Thief as well. As for a SB, I know I want to do Canonist and Meddling Mage. I also always run a BEB and has been amazing every time I've needed it.

Sorry that I'm kinda rambling on. It's been month since I've had time to play or discuss anything and I'm getting all kinds of excited.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've been doing pretty good against Stax (Geddon, to be exact). Just a few games but I feel good. A house against combo, as expected. Here's my board, it's changed quite a bit. Stax in metagame so I've got a couple sb slots dedicated to it. It's probably pretty necessary just from the few games (7x; lost one) I played. I abandoned RIP. It's not for this list. I knew it wasn't, but I had to try it to satisfy my curiosity. Anyway, new sideboard:

2x Vendilion Clique
2x Flusterstorm
1x Spell Pierce
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Perish
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild

I don't think I'm going to go with Surical Extractions, haven't tested Yard hate in the form of artifacts for quite a while, so I think I'm going to get reaquainted with the concept and see how that's playing out.

Also new:
-1 Vindicate
-1 Island
-1 Karakas

+1 Tropical Island
+1 Academy Ruins
+1 Ponder

-In the maindeck to my 2K13 list above, which makes A. Ruins allow artifact gy-hate to be a a touch more desireable, also.

[Imperial]

Looks like you guys have some celebrating to do. :laugh:

[matunos]

Looks like you guys have some celebrating to do. :laugh:

I hope you aren't referring to Turtenwald's GP win with UWR Delver...


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[Imperial]

I hope you aren't referring to Turtenwald's GP win with UWR Delver...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

I was kidding. :tongue: Still, it might as well have been a Stoneblade variant...

[drocker23]

when it comes to esper stoneblade, what is the best 3rd equipment?

the two most popular ideas seem to be either sword of feast and famine and sword of fire and ice.

with bug decks and storm as popular as they are, you want sword of feast and famine. but against decks with TNN and lightning bolt you want sword of fire and ice. with the amount of abrupt decay decks vs. lightning bolt and/or tnn decks being roughly even, what is the best 3rd equipment.

please explain why in your answer.

Note: in my post earlier i had accidentally written sword of light and shadow in place of sword of fire and ice. so the correct line is:
the two most popular ideas seem to be either sword of feast and famine or sword of fire and ice.

[matunos]

when it comes to esper stoneblade, what is the best 3rd equipment?

the two most popular ideas seem to be either sword of feast and famine and sword of light and shadow.

with bug decks and storm as popular as they are, you want sword of feast and famine. but against decks with TNN and lightning bolt you want sword of fire and ice. with the amount of abrupt decay decks vs. lightning bolt and/or tnn decks being roughly even, what is the best 3rd equipment.

please explain why in your answer.

Sword of Feast and Famine used to be the main deck equipment (next to Batterskull). Then Jitte moved to the main deck, I think around the time it went Esper with Lingering Souls and Tom Martell won the GP. Then SoFF moved to the sideboard. It was very good against green decks, obviously, and there were more of those.

These days, Sword of Fire and Ice seems to be the preferred 3rd equipment, and is often maindeck. There are a few reasons:
- It's generally better against combo... increasing the clock with 2 more damage a turn and drawing you into more hate, versus letting them choose what to discard and you untapping your lands.
- It lets you swing a non-TNN, non-evasive guy through an opponent's TNN
- It can kill other creatures almost as well as Jitte can (while providing an impressive and evasive boon).

I'm currently running Jitte, Batterskull, and SoFI main, and a Manriki-Gusari in the sideboard, for rival SFM matches, especially those involving True-Name Nemeses.

I don't think I've ever seen a (tournament-level) Esper Stoneblade play Sword of Light and Shadow and I wouldn't recommend it. You don't really have enough creatures to get full value from it. Other Stoneforge decks like Deadguy Ale or Death and Taxes have played it before, but they tend to have a lot more creatures. At any rate, Deathrite Shaman hasn't been banned in Legacy, so the sword is still kind of limited in power.

[Einherjer]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

[TheArchitect]

A little frustrated with miracles lately, I am likely going to go back to Esper Blade control for a while. I've been working on developing a list I like, and will be playing it a few 1-5ks in training to play it GP Jersey. I'll post the list(s) later with a bit of explanation when I have some more time.


EDIT:
Below are the two lists I have been testing. I have not played either of them in anything bigger than a 1k, because at those events I have been playing miracles, but I have not missed a top 8 with Esper yet (although the sample size is small).


Back to Basics Esper:

21 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Supreme Verdict

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Back to Basics

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
2 Misdirection

---------------------------------------------------------

Traditional Martell Esper:

22 Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict

2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Notion Thief
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Misdirection

A few things to note:
- The B2B build is really an evolution of the deck meant to improve the GBx and delver matchups. It is much more of a reactive control deck than the traditional Martell build. The 4 ponders help facilitate this and allow you to consistently met land drops, but also find the 1-2 ofs that are crucial in certain matchups. If you dont like the 4 ponders, cut 2-4 for some combination of 1 fetches, 1-2 tops, 1 Judgment, 1 verdict, 1 souls.

- The B2B mana might look a bit odd, but it works great. MD you don't need black until much latter in the game lately, so you can safety get 2 plains, 2 island and cast all your spells but souls flashback. Postboard, you only really bring in thoughtseizes against decks where getting non-basics is not such a big deal and the other black spells are so much upside getting non-basics is no big deal.

- I am not sure one build is actually better than the other. Both have merits in different metas. B2B has more swingy matchups but stronger game 1s against a lot of decks. The traditional esper is less polarized and tends to be in better shape in post board games, but does have some trouble with grindy BGx midrange decks if you don't devote some serious SB hate to them.

- The 3 Fow MD, 2 Misdirection SB, and the venser are just something I have been testing lately in an effort to improve the GBx matchups but not open myself up too much to other archtypes. Hymn, visions and, to a less extent, decay are really annoying. This is one of the few things about the deck I am not confident with yet. I do like only having 3 FoW MD with this deck though. Counterspell is just so much a lot of the time.

- No true names. Ive tried true name in this deck and hes just meh. Yes, sometimes he runs away with games. But most the time he just feels out of place in what is otherwise a control deck. Every time I see him in esper I cannot help but want to be also running wastelands, dazes, deathrites, etc to capitalize on TNN aggressive nature. For a real control deck like esper, souls just does the job better.


------------------------


Einherjer, I respect your work on miracles a lot and if you want any help developing Esper I'll help however I can, and would gladly appreciate any help in return.

[jedi_gof]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

Einherjer, I am pretty experienced in the Deathblade version, would be interested in joining your taskforce if you want inputs from a player piloting the crazy little shaman, I think i should be able to provide some input to Esperblade too.

-jedi

[Tormod]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

I have about 2 years of playing esper stone blade. I actually just sleeved the deck up last week as I was missing playing that deck.

[drocker23]

A little frustrated with miracles lately, I am likely going to go back to Esper Blade control for a while. I've been working on developing a list I like, and will be playing it a few 1-5ks in training to play it GP Jersey. I'll post the list(s) later with a bit of explanation when I have some more time.


EDIT:
Below are the two lists I have been testing. I have not played either of them in anything bigger than a 1k, because at those events I have been playing miracles, but I have not missed a top 8 with Esper yet (although the sample size is small).


Back to Basics Esper:

21 Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Supreme Verdict

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Back to Basics

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
2 Misdirection

---------------------------------------------------------

Traditional Martell Esper:

22 Lands
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict

2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Notion Thief
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Misdirection

A few things to note:
- The B2B build is really an evolution of the deck meant to improve the GBx and delver matchups. It is much more of a reactive control deck than the traditional Martell build. The 4 ponders help facilitate this and allow you to consistently met land drops, but also find the 1-2 ofs that are crucial in certain matchups. If you dont like the 4 ponders, cut 2-4 for some combination of 1 fetches, 1-2 tops, 1 Judgment, 1 verdict, 1 souls.

- The B2B mana might look a bit odd, but it works great. MD you don't need black until much latter in the game lately, so you can safety get 2 plains, 2 island and cast all your spells but souls flashback. Postboard, you only really bring in thoughtseizes against decks where getting non-basics is not such a big deal and the other black spells are so much upside getting non-basics is no big deal.

- I am not sure one build is actually better than the other. Both have merits in different metas. B2B has more swingy matchups but stronger game 1s against a lot of decks. The traditional esper is less polarized and tends to be in better shape in post board games, but does have some trouble with grindy BGx midrange decks if you don't devote some serious SB hate to them.

- The 3 Fow MD, 2 Misdirection SB, and the venser are just something I have been testing lately in an effort to improve the GBx matchups but not open myself up too much to other archtypes. Hymn, visions and, to a less extent, decay are really annoying. This is one of the few things about the deck I am not confident with yet. I do like only having 3 FoW MD with this deck though. Counterspell is just so much a lot of the time.

- No true names. Ive tried true name in this deck and hes just meh. Yes, sometimes he runs away with games. But most the time he just feels out of place in what is otherwise a control deck. Every time I see him in esper I cannot help but want to be also running wastelands, dazes, deathrites, etc to capitalize on TNN aggressive nature. For a real control deck like esper, souls just does the job better.


------------------------


Einherjer, I respect your work on miracles a lot and if you want any help developing Esper I'll help however I can, and would gladly appreciate any help in return.


i am curious where you got your list from Tom Martell. because if you read the article Shaheen Soorani wrote regarding his experience at the Invitational recently, you would have read in the comment section that Tom Martell commented and said his list was 2 cards different main deck from the list posted by Soorani in the article, and that his sideboard was different. Your list by Tom Martell does not reflect that information. And honestly I think you should be comparing Tom Martell's list to Soorani's list not Joe Bernal's. Joe Bernal had a cool idea, whatever. I think the main issue of the deck is how many copies of lingering souls to play, whether or not Intuition is worth the spot in the deck still, and what the sideboard should look like. Obviously everything else stays pretty much the same. the creatures don't really change. the land base shouldn't really change that much either. although the ratio of basics/duals/fetches is something to be evaluated as well. Honestly Tom Martell is great player and all but personally I feel like Shaheen Soorani is to Esper Stoneblade as Joe Lossett is to UW Miracles. Here are the two decklists I am currently looking at for compare and contrast.


Shaheen Soorani Esper Stoneblade

Creatures (8)

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Karakas

Spells (27)

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
1 Intuition
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
2 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

2 Notion Thief
2 Engineered Plague
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Perish


There is Soorani's decklist. Now read what Tom Martell wrote in the comment section of the article regarding the decklist and sideboard.

Tom Martell
"My current list is 2 cards off in the main deck: -1 Tundra +1 Plains, -1 Intuition +1 Spell Pierce. I think Lingering Souls is a lot better than True Name in this deck."

His follow up post reads as follows:

My sideboard fwiw:

1 Disenchant (might switch to Council's Judgment)
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Meddling Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm

Also Matt Sperling asked "how is the miracles matchup" which he replies with "Not great. I've stopped playing the deck online as its 30%+ miracles, but I can't imagine IRL its a big problem."

So now after reading these posts I think you need to evaluate the presence of Intuition as a card/combo/engine or if you should follow a more traditional list like Tom Martell's. Is the extra plains worth it? Also something else to keep in mind is the lack of sideboarding options Soorani's decklist has against a wide array of matchups. Tom Martell's list might also be fine tuned for the online metagame which may not be entirely ideal when looking at a local meta or starcity open series meta. So I'd love to hear your comments on it all now.

[drocker23]

Can someone please tell me what the FWIW stands for?

[drocker23]

Also this list comes from Reid Duke back in late 2013. yes it is a true-name list not a lingering souls list but it's still worth looking at as far as fine tuning the deck for today.

Creatures (10)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
Spells (24)
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Meddling Mage
1 Humility
1 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize

[ThediscoPower]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

Interested to replay esper too, and put some work into it (actually resleeved a version of it). I have about 1 year with esper specifically, and I played all other versions of stoneblade too (uw, uwr, bant) in the past.

[Whippoorwill]

Can someone please tell me what the FWIW stands for?

For what it's worth.

[HSCK]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

This is going to be really interesting. I think Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time can be used really effectively here.

[TheArchitect]

Drocker, I actually meant Vidi's list. Calling it Martells was just a brain fart. All I really meant was that it was a more traditional esper list, very similar to what people were playing 2 years ago and very distinguished from deathblade or anything with back to basics.

The deck definitely can have a good matchup against miracles. Souls helps a lot, but having more cards like clique, needle, notion thief, actual counterspell help a lot too. Martells SB is very light on cards that are good vs miracles.

[Whippoorwill]

Would Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek be worth considering in the Lingering Souls/Intuition slots?

Pros:
-Neither card can be exiled with Deathrite.
-Stoneforge can search up the Sword.
-Foundry can pitch to Force if needed.
-The life gain can be relevant with Burn becoming more popular.
-Hard for Miracles to deal with once established.

Cons:
-Requires 2 cards to work, which is a fairly large downside.

Just a thought since I haven't played the deck (yet) and it seems like it would work well with the board wipes.

[obituary 95]

[QUOTE=Einherjer;834263]I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

will put in work

[[SLAYER]chaos]

ThopterBlade I will be testing before the GP:

Creatures: 8
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
1 Lingering Souls

Artifacts: 5
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard: 15
3 Rest in Peace
2 Notion Thief
2 Engineered Plague
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
1 Perish

[bruizar]

Solid list looks solid

[Lormador]

I'm building this deck and I was wondering about something.

I've noticed that the non-Jace win conditions utilized seem to vary among Lingering Souls, True-Name Nemesis, and Thopter/Sword combo.

I don't think I have a problem determining the relative advantages and weaknesses of these cards relative to my opponent's potential countermeasures, but I'm unsure of how the choice of win condition affects internal card choices.

Any help would be appreciated.

[TheArchitect]

I'm building this deck and I was wondering about something.

I've noticed that the non-Jace win conditions utilized seem to vary among Lingering Souls, True-Name Nemesis, and Thopter/Sword combo.

I don't think I have a problem determining the relative advantages and weaknesses of these cards relative to my opponent's potential countermeasures, but I'm unsure of how the choice of win condition affects internal card choices.

Any help would be appreciated.

They don't really have to affect much. TNN does make you feel like you deck is supposed to be more aggressive though. Everytime I put TNN in esper stoneblade I feel like I want wastes, Deathrites and more spell pierces. I have never played thopter/sword, but I would probably want 1 Etutor and a top in the MD and maybe some other Etutor bullets that I would already consider playing (regardless of etutor) in the SB. Shaheen runs intuition and 2 therapy in the SB with his 3 lingering souls, but I do not think thats worth it. Its better to just SB out the souls against combo, and I usually only run 2 souls anyways.

[Lormador]

Thopter/Sword looks really cool and dominating, and it is interesting given that I've never played with it before either... I just don't know if I can stomach graveyard dependence and card disadvantage (if I run E-tutor) to get it online. What's attractive about TNN is his complete disregard for Rest In Peace (and related) conditions. I think I want to go on some Treasure Cruises, and I am concerned that opponents who see both that and Thopters will board accordingly.

[Einherjer]

I am planning on building up a task-force that will work on Esperblade. If you are experienced and willing to put some work into this deck, let me know.

Greetings

Sorry everybody, when I wrote this I was sure that I had the best Miracles list, now as there is more work to be done (a.k.a. dealing with Cruise + Dig) I'll have to stop my work on Esper. You'll get one piece of content in the next week, as far as I know, though. :)

Sorry.

Greetings

[HSCK]

I've got some good testing in with Esper and am happy with 3 Cruise and 3 LS right now.

[teddy-k]

I've got some good testing in with Esper and am happy with 3 Cruise and 3 LS right now.

Do you mind sharing your list with those cards in it?

[HSCK]

Switching gears to test a couple Dig Through Times:

Creatures: 6
2 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Equipment: 2
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Spells: 22
1 Ponder
1 Council’s Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
2 Dig Through Time
3 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands: 22
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard: 15
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Notion Thief

Was not happy with Lili, I don't know if TNN is useful at all in this shell, but it seems like it'd be another strong mid to late game card I can pick at with DTT.

[Lormador]

I tried out that Sorin, Lord of Innistrad that Al Karabell played in Montana... resolved it against DnT and it was a complete house.

Well, it might have had something to do with the fact that the board was empty due to a Zealous Persecution and that there was a Jitte on my side of it.

Nevertheless, I was impressed enough that I'm going to go out on a limb and play a couple more walkers than usual in the deck. I still don't get the point of Ashiok, really, but there are several others.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

How has everyone's testing been with Dig Through Time? As a one of it's been pretty insane for me mid/late game. I feel like the deck could easily support another one but I'm not sure what I would cut for it. Even just the one seems like it's straining the decks early game.

[GreenShorty]

Suddenly I don't feel confident when playing esper anymore. The deck is so mana intensive that when you miss land drops it just feels slow and clunky. Are any of you having this problem?
Esper is my pet deck, but I'm afraid it's just not viable on it's "classic" configuration. What do you think? My list, for reference, is currently this:

Land (23)

4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sorcery (8)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vindicate

Instant (13)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
3x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Creature (10)
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
1x Disenchant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Perish
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spell Pierce
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Vendilion Clique

I thought about testing Shaheen's list, but I don't own some of the cards (intuition, cabal therapy etc), so that will have to wait. I tested a single ponder + a treasure cruise, but it felt like that cantrip + shuffle effect helped me more often than drawing 3 cards (hard to believe, huh?).

[crush]

This is the list I have tested lately - it is based on Shaheen's Intuition list:

Lands (22)
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
3x Marsh Flats
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Karakas

Creature (8)
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

Instant (13)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Counterspell
1x Intuition

Sorcery (11)
3x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder
1x Treasure Cruise
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Council's Judgment

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
3x Rest in Peace
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Spell Pierce
2x Notion Thief
1x Disenchant
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Engineered Plague
1x Supreme Verdict

I wasn't overly impressed with the maindeck 1x Counterspell and 1x Inquisition of Kozilek - I think I'd like to replace them with a 3rd Thoughseize, another Treasure Cruise and/or a maindeck FoW.
Otherwise the deck felt really solid - two ponders are a must to make sure you hit all the land drops.

I haven't tested Dig Through Time yet, however I only wished the Cruises were Digs when playing against Sneak & Show. Intuition was incredible and saved me at least in 4 out of 10 matchups.

Looking at your list, here are my comments:
- 2 Counterspell are definitely too much - I liked them in the UW Stoneblade list, however in this list, getting to UU second turn might not be as easy if you try to play around wastelands.
- Play 3 Snapcaster Mages - I was never unhappy to see them. Early game flashing back Plows, late game cantrips and Treasure Cruises.
- I strongly suggest to play 3 Rest in Peace in the sideboard - they are stellar against all the B/G decks.
- I prefer Lingering souls over TNN mostly to beat Liliana's. Every game vs Liliana I discarded a copy on Liliana's +1, flashed it back and they were forced to -2 Liliana and decay the other spirit. I usually then finished Liliana off with a EOT flash creature.

Regards

[GreenShorty]

What about the land count... do you think 22 is ok'ish? I've tested 22 for around 10 games and got mana screwed every single time. Maybe my version is more mana intensive, though.

[crush]

Well,

It happens to get mana screwed and honestly I hadn't tested many games vs RUG delver (mostly BUG and U(W)R..). If you get wasted twice in the first 4 turns, you will usually lose to their tempo.

Basically, I against wasteland decks, I only keep hands with 3 lands or blue land, fetch & cantrip. Use the cantrip on turn 3 (main phase) if you haven't topdecked the third land and you should be ok..

[TheArchitect]

Suddenly I don't feel confident when playing esper anymore. The deck is so mana intensive that when you miss land drops it just feels slow and clunky. Are any of you having this problem?
Esper is my pet deck, but I'm afraid it's just not viable on it's "classic" configuration. What do you think? My list, for reference, is currently this:


Yup, I have had this exact problem. The odd mix of basics and non-basics and general lack of filtering screws me over a lot. If I fetch a basic or two in the first couple turns to avoid wasteland, it just makes the wasteland they use on my non-basic (which I inevitably draw and have to play) even more devastating. Against any deck with stifle its even worse. I played at a 1k this weekend and went a disappointing 2-3. One game loss was to my own technical error, but all 5 of the other losses were entirely do fumbling on mana the entire game.

As far as Dig/cruise goes I think they are both great. I tested a lot with dig as both a 2 and 3 of. 3 of was not bad, but 2 of felt better. I have not tried cruise really in esper, but it is possibly even be better; especially if your deck is more tap-out control anyways. One major mistake I made initially though, was cutting ponders for Dig. Don't do this. You still need ponder to smooth out the early game and mana issues. Dig totally turns games around though, and is exactly the kind of card this deck needs to turn the tables and stabilize, or press advantage after stabilizing.

[Chaam]

I'm trying to determine whether or not I want to play ANT or Esper Stone Blade next in Legacy (was on RUG Delver and Shardless BUG before, both I think got worse due to cruise making visions worse and U/R Delver being able to play cruise and RUG not).

Anyways, here is the list I was thinking of putting together.

Creatures (9)
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True Name Nemesis

Sorceries (14)
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Council's Judgement
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Treasure Cruise

Instants (15)
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will

Artifacts (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (21)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Marsh Flats
4x Tundra
6x Island
1x Plains

Sideboard (15)
2x Pithing Needle
2x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Path to Exile
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique

[solidbass]

So this is my first post on The Source. I've recently (past 3 months) converted over to Esper Stoneblade after playing UW for quite some time.

Here's my list:
Instants and Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

2 Lingering Souls
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Council's Judgement

Creatures:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 True Name Nemesis

Other:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marshflats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Swamp
5 Islands

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
3 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Path to Exile
1 Council's Judgement

The MD I initially tuned to beat fair matchups (bug varieties specifically) but I guess in the last month of me not playing, everyone decided to switch to combo....Anyways I'm trying out Treasure Cruise for the next 2 weeks and then I'll test Dig Through Time. My first impressions with TC (at a competitive level) has been less than ideal and DTT would have suited me better in most of my games. I went 3-2, losing to elves 0-2, sneak and show 1-2, Storm 2-1, Elves 2-0, and some homebrew tezzerator 2-0. In all of these games TC was either a win more or it didn't dig (haha) me far enough to an answer. Also, I frequently casted TC at around 2 mana. However, i could do some MD changes to help TC along rather than just jamming it in like I did. As a foil to my testing competitively, TC has been an absolute HOUSE in my casual legacy testing (like 8-1 burn, 5-1 deathblade, 2-0 miracles, 2-0 Goblins)

Anyone else have similar or vastly different experiences with TC?

[Chaam]

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on Rest In Peace? I don't think we can afford to run Rest in Peace if you are running Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage and Treasure Cruise. Any thoughts on Nihil Spellbomb? It is better than Relic of Progenitus for us since it leaves our GY alone.

[Lormador]

I think the best GY-hate card, from the perspective of fighting opposing Digs/Cruises, has got to be Deathrite Shaman. In the past, the "Deathblade with basics" blends of these two decks haven't been successful, but maybe there's a way to do it with these new cards.

I haven't had the chance to do much with Treasure Cruise yet, as I instinctively feel that Dig Through Time must be better for this deck. Here's what I've found.


Resolving Dig is often a prelude to glorious victory
I can often tap out and pay 3-5 mana for Dig at EOT with little danger
Dig's best friend is Thoughtseize
Dig also likes serious removal, Council's Judgment or Vindicate, and sweepers


The best Digs I resolved were fairly late in the game on a relatively clean board. What surprised me most was probably #2, that Dig is actually quite easy on the graveyard. Just saving Dig as one of my last spells, to put me ahead when everything else gets traded 1-for-1, and being an instant means that I can tap whatever mana I've built up to pay for it. So I think the load that a normal Esper deck places on the graveyard, Lingering Souls and Snapcaster, is not a problem for Diggers in the same way it might pose a problem for Cruisers.

Thoughtseize was totally the best card to have after resolving a Dig. In 7 cards I could usually find a threat that would devastate the board if left unanswered. The Modern "Force of Will" takes their answer for one mana, if they have it, and then I get to play it. Strong removal or a sweeper were good too, if I was a little behind on the board.

My own conclusion is that Dig must be played in this kind of deck. It's not win-more. This one card can bring you from behind to parity, or from parity to advantage, all by itself.

[ironclad8690]

Hello guys, I am from the Jund forum. I was wondering, how do you guys beat Lands?

[[SLAYER]chaos]

That's funny that you bring that up because I was just stomped on by a lands player today at a tournament. What I did was try to pithing needle relevant lands then put a clock on the table. The problem was that I couldn't find more than a few creatures that all got immediately punishing fired and he eventually found the kgrip for needle on port which allowed him to sneak marit lage in for 20. It's not a very common matchup but it's a really poor one.

[GreenShorty]

I've been testing the suggestions made (+1 snapcaster, 2 ponders instead of 1) and a third island over tar pit, and I must say that, although very little, those changes have made a HUGE impact on the deck. Now I'm 100% sure that 2 ponder is a must, and the third snapcaster works nicely also. I'm not sure why, but I've always thought that 3 was too much, and that I would have them stuck on my hand. That's absolutely wrong.
The deck is feeling much more grindier, and I'm loving it again. :laugh:

[ljackstar]

Hey, I'm just starting to build this deck right now and I'm wondering if anyone has a more up-to date list. Also wondering if there is any place for something like containment priest in this deck, or is that looking in the wrong direction?

[RogueMTG]

...
Thoughtseize was totally the best card to have after resolving a Dig. In 7 cards I could usually find a threat that would devastate the board if left unanswered. The Modern "Force of Will" takes their answer for one mana, if they have it, and then I get to play it. Strong removal or a sweeper were good too, if I was a little behind on the board.

My own conclusion is that Dig must be played in this kind of deck. It's not win-more. This one card can bring you from behind to parity, or from parity to advantage, all by itself.

I agree with all of this.

I played a Dig heavy UW control list at GP NJ. I didn't make day 2, but the 4 Brainstorm/4 Ponder/4 Dig line up felt really good. Dig let me beat a turn 3 Grave Titan out of Nic Fit after getting Cabal Therapied twice.

Your comments make me pretty sure the card I was really missing was Thoughtsieze to protect my own threats. It seems like it would make for much better aggressive Dig Through Time's.

[Chaam]

It is tough to justify playing Esper over UWR atm when Pyromancer gives you so much velocity, pyroblast being so good, bolt being good vs. the large amount of U/R Delver/D&T etc and Thoughtseize being so bad vs. UR Delver & Burn.

I have been trying a more controlling version with Digs but have come to realize that even if you dig twice in a game you don't necessarily win and players just out tempo/velocity you.

I want to try a focused,low to the ground, tapout & proactive version that looks something like this:

Creatures (11)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries (12)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Treasure Cruise

Instants (14)
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
2 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict

[Chaam]

I am also considering going the opposite route and become bigger and more controlly. If we can't be as "tempo" orientated as UWr versions running Pyro and G-Probe (BBD's list) then let's go back to the old bomb heavy/control version.

Creatures (12)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries (6)
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
1 Council's Judgment

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will

Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Batterskull

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been an avid supporter of esper for a long time, but once tc got printed and UR became one of the top contenders, I had to give up the deck. The main reasons to play black--drs, thoughtseize, and lingering souls-- just aren't that strong in the current meta. DRS's survival rate to untap has significantly dropped as most of the popular decks run 7-8 md'd removals now (UR, UWR, miracles). Thoughtseize is similarly just poorly positioned to match up against the slew of aggressive red decks (but may be more worthwhile as white makes a resurgence). And finally, souls has been losing traction as it doesn't really profitably block swiftspear/pyro (keeps making more tokens) and is easily negated by the increased number of forked bolts and jittes.

I've tried a couple variations on the deck in order to incorporate the new delve cards as well as to md more removal, but it just felt like the deck could still get run over by UR if it stumbles just a turn or two.

[trolliver]

hello there! when i finally got my stonebladelist together it became so bad in the current meta... Well i tried to adjust the list to work better, ive gone more control, thats my intention anyways. Would be very glad if someone coult get some input on it.
I just want to say that this is my first legacylist ever and im very humble in your opinions. Havnt got the time yet to play against the local meta at my LGS cuz of my almost newborn daughter and job...(next year i will have 6 months without work, thank you sweden for daddydays! :cool:) But i know that the meta is very much t1.

I hope you get what im writing, and i will try to work on my english.

Oops forgot to post the list...

Land (21)

4x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Creature (9)

2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (8)

1x Council's Judgment
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Ponder
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalker (3)

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Sideboard

2x Extirpate
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Meddling Mage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Vindicate
1x Zealous Persecution

[TheArchitect]

I love esper but have shelved it recently. Since the delve spells I have a hard time justifying not playing a deck with red elemental blast, and playing a deck with discard instead. I don't think esper is too great right now, but there are some things you, trolliver, can do to make your list better:

- If you can't beat them, join them. The delve spells are very powerful in the esper shell as well. Play no less than 3 Digs or cruises. If your curve is higher, your goal to be more of a control deck, and your deck with more instants/flash dudes, dig is the way to go. A more aggressive curve or a tappout control strategy will make cruise better for you.

- Spell pierce is pretty weak right now, and pretty weak in esper.

- Lingering souls is one of the main attractions to play esper over URW. I would run at least 2. 2 Souls, 2 TNN is fine. As is 3 Souls and 0 TNN.

- I do not think Council's judgement in the MD is needed right now. EE can do the same thing but better.

- The 3rd island, sorin, 1 MD clique are questionable.

- Your sideboard needs a lot of work. Darkblast, containment priest and Blue Elemental blast in particular are cards I would definitely run in this deck.

- Clique/karakas has gotten weaker lately.

I was thinking about playing esper a couple days ago, and this is the list I would play if I played the deck tomorrow:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Lingering Souls
1 Intuition

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast
1 Toxic Deluge


1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Treasure Cruise

2 Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland

Sideboard:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Containment Priest
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution


The intuition thing is just something I was trying out, and might be bad. Swap an intuition and a souls for 2 TNN if you'd like, and the 2 Therapy with something else. Also, the 3rd tundra and sea are not needed if it is an availability issue for you, just replace them with more fetches/basics. Deluge might be better as verdict, but I really like having no WW cards in the deck if possible. And with less pierces being played, deluge is less of a liability.

[trolliver]

-

thanks for the great input buddy. Just with a glimpse of your list it feels alot more streamlined and more well suited for the meta. I will try your list with a little tweak (does not have all the cards...but most of them). Must drag my as to the lgs. I see forward to post the results in a near future.

[solidbass]

I've been having some success with thoptor foundry. I took out true name and souls for them. I've gone against jund and a uw tempo deck with fairly high success rates. Anyone else try this recently?

[tescrin]

I've been having some success with thoptor foundry. I took out true name and souls for them. I've gone against jund and a uw tempo deck with fairly high success rates. Anyone else try this recently?

:O!!!!??!?!

I've been doing a lot of experimenting in BUG and Esper with Thopter Combo; can I see your list? My deathblade list was a bit wonky I think and had some major D&T issues (The games ran long, then I couldn't deal with equipped dudes.) My Thopter portion was a 3/1/3 split of SFM/Sword/Foundry. I've been brewing with Thopter combo as a way to deal with the ever-present miracles problem while generally being good against Fair decks including Delver variants.

My BUG brew was also quite decent against Jund (it was basically Shardless with Thopters jammed in in place of Lily and some discard) and my experience has been that Baleful Strix is not only a decent way to get your sword back; but extremely good at slowing Delver.

Anyway, a list would be grand!

[solidbass]

:O!!!!??!?!

I've been doing a lot of experimenting in BUG and Esper with Thopter Combo; can I see your list? My deathblade list was a bit wonky I think and had some major D&T issues (The games ran long, then I couldn't deal with equipped dudes.) My Thopter portion was a 3/1/3 split of SFM/Sword/Foundry. I've been brewing with Thopter combo as a way to deal with the ever-present miracles problem while generally being good against Fair decks including Delver variants.

My BUG brew was also quite decent against Jund (it was basically Shardless with Thopters jammed in in place of Lily and some discard) and my experience has been that Baleful Strix is not only a decent way to get your sword back; but extremely good at slowing Delver.

Anyway, a list would be grand!

My split is quite similar. I haven't tested the miracles matchup but I can't see this being much worse than other variants of Blade. Once I finally came upon the realization that Jace just isn't good right now (blasphemy, I know) I didn't want to give up the "inevitability" that Jace can have so I figured the thoptor foundry combo might work. Anyways, I've been fiddling around with it and it's pretty powerful. On a spicy sidenote; Tezzeret? I know it might be crazy but 5/5s for days!!!

Anyways here's the list:

Creatures:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Counterspell
2 Ponder
1 Council's Judgement
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
Other:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thoptor Foundry
1 Engineered Explosives
Lands:
3 Islands
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

The sideboard is a bit of a mess but something like:

2-4 Thooughtseize
1-2 Zealous Persecution
1 Back to Basics
1-2 Pithing Needle
X Containment Priests and/or Meddling Mages
X Humility (might be too cute)
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage
Additional removal/ sweepers like Supreme Verdict and path to exile
X Jace maybe
1-2 Disenchant
X Blue Elemental Blast

So yes the deck can be quite clunky at times. However, what I gain is superiority in pretty much all grindy matchups. Anyone have any tips or insight?

[tescrin]

stuff
I was running a 2xTezz in place of Jace in the "Shardless" version. I like the idea of Tezz + Thopters since they're both so good against miracles; which tells you my position on what it does to them. If you have 4 mana you can shut out 5 angels. They can't Terminus you into extinction very well and they can't Jace you out if Tezz or Thopters are online. Miracles is indeed the entire reason I'm brewing in this direction.

I'm running a couple of Deluge since Thopters don't care and it takes care of a lot of board states. I was thinking of going DRS since the 1-2 lands is a fine splash and the additional protection from Grave-combo is ever-helpful. Ramping Tezz and Thopter combo seems important as well.

Something to note about the list; with only one SotM and no 1/1s you can have a hard time getting the sword back if you don't have an extra artifact lying around. If going Tezz I feel like Baleful Strix is an ok way to go in that case. But maybe I'm just rambling.


The rest of my deck was wonky, so I can't say much. Again, I went 0-4 with D&T (even with 2xDeluge) but I had a lot of mediocre cards flying around, so maybe it'd be better with a version like yours. The deck in general feels weak to Mom/Thalia and that's becoming bigger in my area (2+ Mavericks, 4+ D&Ts) and Deluge helps with Merfolk or something as well (since you can wipe them and possibly stabilize on Thopter lifegain.)

If running Tezz, the numbers look like:
10 Artifacts -> 40% chance of wiffing his +1
15 Artifacts -> 23% chance of wiffing his +1
20 Artifacts -> 13% chance of wiffing his +1

So I'd swap Ponders for Top to start. Top (if you find it) also cranks that number to 100%, which makes it good if you don't push the Artifact numbers. It turns his +1 into a mere "draw a card and spend {1}" but at least you hit. Looking at the top 3 can also allow you to make sure something is there. With Tezz I think I'd end up adding some Strix to stabilize against Delver (especially UR), Goyf, and BSK. I think Revoker may be handy in place of some of your anti-combo as well; simply because he helps with the Equip/Mom problems too.

Again, this is mostly theory talking, but I'm excited to be talking to *someone* about it.

[MrShine]

@tescrin

I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?

For me the cool part is that there is potential to just play the normal grindy UW SFM game and get the free wins that come with SFM -> Equip, but then also a long game trump in the form of Thopters for the MUs like Miracles or Punishing Fire decks where the man-plan is no good.

I like the direction solidbass is going; although isn't Dig Through Time (over Cruise) way better for us in this type of deck? I'm also skeptical of the 1 of E Tutor; it's generally agreed its too clunky / inconsistent but I could see it coming out of the SB depending on what other bullets we want to be bringing in (RIP, Humility, etc)

tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...

I feel like there HAS to be something here...

[solidbass]

I was running a 2xTezz in place of Jace in the "Shardless" version. I like the idea of Tezz + Thopters since they're both so good against miracles; which tells you my position on what it does to them. If you have 4 mana you can shut out 5 angels. They can't Terminus you into extinction very well and they can't Jace you out if Tezz or Thopters are online. Miracles is indeed the entire reason I'm brewing in this direction.

My issue with Shardless is the build around required. I love my counterspells too much.
The combination of tezz and thoptors seems quite powerful against miracles assuming you can get one or the other online. Do you have any playtesting against them with either a just thoptor list and/or tezz thoptor list? My meta has a fair amount of Miracles and with a more classical build of Stoneblade the matchup is less than favorable, to put it lightly.


I'm running a couple of Deluge since Thopters don't care and it takes care of a lot of board states. I was thinking of going DRS since the 1-2 lands is a fine splash and the additional protection from Grave-combo is ever-helpful. Ramping Tezz and Thopter combo seems important as well.

I like the idea of Toxic Deluge. Casting a sweeper a turn earlier sounds pretty sweet. Especially with UR delver being a thing.
DRS is a great card, however, with more removal seeming to be a thing he becomes a little worse. I personally don't run him because of the midrangeyness he brings to the deck.

You're right with SotM being a problem to recur at times. Baleful Strix sounds like an excellent addition. I was mulling over SDT but my issue is it's slower than ponder and doesn't fill up my GY for TC. If I'm giving Tezz serious thought, artifact lands seem great as well but then I'm giving up a few points to Burn and losing the Back to Basics plan in the side. But if I'm gunning for it; Transmute Artifact? Stoneblade tezzerator sounds totally awesome to me lol.

[solidbass]

@tescrin

I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?

For me the cool part is that there is potential to just play the normal grindy UW SFM game and get the free wins that come with SFM -> Equip, but then also a long game trump in the form of Thopters for the MUs like Miracles or Punishing Fire decks where the man-plan is no good.

I like the direction solidbass is going; although isn't Dig Through Time (over Cruise) way better for us in this type of deck? I'm also skeptical of the 1 of E Tutor; it's generally agreed its too clunky / inconsistent but I could see it coming out of the SB depending on what other bullets we want to be bringing in (RIP, Humility, etc)

tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...


I feel like there HAS to be something here...

That's the problem with Tezz, building around him just leads to building Tezzerator in most repects. However, with that in mind, he's still powerful and worth looking into.
The E. Tutor has been something I've been testing. For one, it's rarely dead, it's just a bit slow at times. Also, I know people always said card disadvantage blah blah. That was before Treasure Cruise. I'll 2 for 1 myself for the card I want if I know I'll just be 3 for 1ing later.
DTT vs. TC is something I have yet to figure out and honestly I've tried both fairly extensively and I've come to the conclusion that maybe 2 cards out of 7 is better sometimes but 3 cards is still 3 cards they're essentially equal. I will not debate TC vs DTT!

My biggest issue is how I will fare against the delver matches. The thoptor combo could be too clunky against delver and create unnecessary losses.

[tescrin]

@tescrin

I feel like with all the suggestions you are making you might be better off just going straight to a Tezzerator style deck; bascially, where do you we draw the line here?
tescrin the idea of adding in Top is cool, as that makes it much more viable to bring in CB post-board if that's a direction we'd want to explore. And Tezzeret does let us spam 5/5 flyers with Foundry...
UBTezz doesn't interest me much given all the mana rocks, sol lands, it's a chalice deck, etc.. I've been thinking on CB as well. Unsure. The second you become a chalice deck that's where I'd draw the line. That said, I should say I don't necessarily mean "Do all the things", just pointing out a lot of cards that could help various MUs or the Combo.


My issue with Shardless is the build around required. I love my counterspells too much.
The combination of tezz and thoptors seems quite powerful against miracles assuming you can get one or the other online. Do you have any playtesting against them with either a just thoptor list and/or tezz thoptor list? My meta has a fair amount of Miracles and with a more classical build of Stoneblade the matchup is less than favorable, to put it lightly.
@Shardless
Yeah. It's a bit much for a design restriction, it just seem(s/ed) like a good fit since i was swapping a 4-mana card for a 4-mana card and stuffing thopters where visions were.

@Miracles/Playtesting
I have very little experience on this; I'm merely in a brewing mindset for Thopters and noticed you talking about it. I like the Top mostly for the intereaction with Tezz (not only bringing up artifact count, but giving guaranteed +1's and such.) I'm not currently stuffing a Delve card in since Thopter Combo and Tezz are value slots; if that makes sense. I'm not even sure if I want Esper/BUG/4Color yet given my reservations about being CB'd out.

I come from a Junk background so my current list is centered around Black/discard, with CSpells supplementing it/mostly in the side. The amount of D&T and Maverick invading my meta make FoW really bad so that's part of my motivation on deck choices. Centering around black allows me to use Tidehollow Sculler as well; which I've liked a lot in DGA/Junk builds.

I like the idea of going to CB as a means of getting one-sided chalice locks and such. There are just so many choices in the color set that my practice has only scratched the surface of how to make Thopter Combo work properly.

[MrShine]

UBTezz doesn't interest me much given all the mana rocks, sol lands, it's a chalice deck, etc.. I've been thinking on CB as well. Unsure. The second you become a chalice deck that's where I'd draw the line. That said, I should say I don't necessarily mean "Do all the things", just pointing out a lot of cards that could help various MUs or the Combo.


I only really bring it up to point out that once you start building around Tezzeret, there is a slippery slope not far off. Not to say I don't think that we couldn't find a midground here with both UW Blade Control elements as well as Tezzeret as an alternate line of attack, its just that we need to compare the value of Tezz to something comparable like Jace - how far do we have to go to make Tezz worth it over something arguably more flexible and powerful (Jace)? I'm suggesting that that line might be too far down the slippery slope, it might be better to maximize synergy for Tezz in the style of Tezzerator.

If Thopter is viable, it should be good enough by itself as an alternate line of attack without support like Tezz, and if it is (and I believe it has the potential), then design principles lead to cutting the fat and making it as streamlined as possible.

Basically what I see here is a UW Blade Control with the ability to go for a "combo" finish against the super grindy decks (that probably won't have outs G1).

OFC, I should just shut up and start testing myself ;)

---

@solidbass - I would think Thopters have a lot of value in the UR MU as a way to claw back out of the danger zone once the initial assault has been weathered - the life gain pulls you out of burn range and the tokens match up nicely vs those from Young Pyromancer.

I'm interested to see if/how you guys find room for Strix; it does seem quite good, although it also seems slow to me. I'm personally leaning towards more Wrath effects to solve the creature problem... Deluge does seem pretty awesome, cementing us in the B splash, but then again more Verdict lets us stick pretty much straight UW

[solidbass]

@ MrShine I think you're right about Tezzeret. Even if he is great and there is a midway point between blade and Tezzereter I'm not sure that's what the goal should be.
Thoptors seems like a strong alternate path for UWb Stoneblade to take. I'm very interested to see how it will do in more in testing considering how well it's done in one of my weaker matchups; Jund. I'm really digging the idea of Baleful Strixs so I'm thinking I'll add 2 for starters. Not sure exactly what to cut, counterspells and/or V, Clique? By adding them I suppose I'm giving up some points to combo but that's what the board is for right? Toxic Deluge will definitely merit some testing I'll probably just do a 1 for 1 swap with Supreme Verdict.

I'm wondering what the SB should look like? Should it be more protect the king type approach? Or more controlly with as many answers to all decks as possible? I'm "newish" to legacy so I wasn't around when Thoptors was a thing so SBing is a bit of a mystery.

@ Tescrin I haven't been a fan of discard in the main as of late due to TC n such. However, since this the brewing stage it's a bit up in the air if a tap out approach vs a reactive approach is more appropriate. I personally like the reactive role since it's been working for me so far.

[nevilshute]

What are peoples' take on Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise in an Esper control shell?

[jedi_gof]

@Nevilshute

As a long time esper player, you will find me prefering to play as few main phase spell as possible, prefering to keep open af often as possible in opponents turn.
DTT is in my oppinion favored, as a 2 of 3 off. It helps draw the right cards opposed to TC drawing 3 randoms from top and allows you to play more magic in opponents turn.
The powerlevel of esper is really high. But also it is really just a stack of really good cards, that just are so good it makes a deck on its own more or less... Issue is you can draw the wrong half of the deck against aggro or the other half against control basically. DTT helps migate this, and helps find the right, powerfull cards.

I have a preference for flash dudes, and even with DTT i would play propably 1-2 snaps and of course at least 2 cliques, and DTT fits this concept beautifully

[H]

What are peoples' take on Dig Through Time vs Treasure Cruise in an Esper control shell?

I think it really depends on your build. If you have more Flash guys and counter-magic, then DDT is probably better since you can leave mana open and EOT it or a man, depending on what you need.

If your build is more like a Shaheen Soorani style of more Sorcery-speed, bomb-type plays, I think Cruise might actually be better. It lets you restock your hand more, since this style I find is more about forcing them to answer your bombs, or grinding them down until they can't answer something.

When I had time to test, I was experimenting with 1-2 Darkblast in the 75 and found results to be, at least initially, positive. Then again, I was still fitting in a few Lingering Souls, but since I haven't had much time to play, I am not sure how this build is suited to the more current meta.

[tescrin]

I've been over at the DGA thread a bit since I'm working from more of a WB direction, though I'm still finding the right base. I went 2-0-2 with the more "Discard" version. I had tried Arena (since I was centered on black and sdematt was recommending it) but was unhappy with it. With the blue splash I may Cruise, but I was running Stalker, so it means more deck-shifting. I'm a bit inbetween the decks since they don't splash blue and my deck is so non-blue; but I figure I'd let you know since there was a little interest/activity.

I think cruise, as mentioned in the above post, is better with Discard than reactionary spells. Discard/Removal + Lily fuels your grave proactively where reactionary spells are contingent upon your opponent doing things. TS is also quite good at nabbing opposing cruises (which is one of the reasons I've been so happy with discard still.) Discard being the less-conditional of the spells as well makes it good for hitting Delver's low removal/low threat count and augmenting the rest of your hand. That's just IMO though.

[trolliver]

hope we can bring this thread back alive! Any thought on the TC ban?
I will bring my deck deck to a tournament this weekend. Gonna post a list tomorrow. It feels like esperblade will be more favorable in the new(old...) meta, am i right?
I also had the luck to get a foil flooded strand in a booster i won. I dont need it and thinking about trading it for a liliana or a pair of flusterstorm. Any suggestions?
Maybe this post is kind of useless without my list, but im to tired and my kid i sleeping so i would be stupid of me to shuffle around with my cards...

forgot that i had the list online... well here it is;

Land (21)

1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
2x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (9)

2x Lingering Souls
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Creature (9)

2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Planeswalker (2)

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Council's Judgment
1x Disenchant
1x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Meddling Mage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution


Im thinking about Lilly instead of darkblast...

[MrShine]

This is definitely going to come back, especially since we still get to play with DTT! Seems to me a 'flash' based version (as H puts it) is the direction to go in to best synergize with Dig. Snapcasters, Clique, good ol' Counterspell, and Digs to find Verdicts/Deluge when you need them.

@ trolliver - Darkblast was good pre-ban but Deathrite is going to come back in a big way... I thought Deluge was sweet in the pre-Cruise meta (look at the success of Shardless BUG), and I would definitely think about turning that 'blast into at least 1 more Deluge. And I would play at least 3 Meddling Mage in the board - guy is just nuts and you always want him in your opener vs combo, not to mention he's really good in multiples too. Mage is actually most of the reason I like UWx Blade as an archetype these days.

[spencerma]

hope we can bring this thread back alive! Any thought on the TC ban?
I will bring my deck deck to a tournament this weekend. Gonna post a list tomorrow. It feels like esperblade will be more favorable in the new(old...) meta, am i right?
I also had the luck to get a foil flooded strand in a booster i won. I dont need it and thinking about trading it for a liliana or a pair of flusterstorm. Any suggestions?
Maybe this post is kind of useless without my list, but im to tired and my kid i sleeping so i would be stupid of me to shuffle around with my cards...

forgot that i had the list online... well here it is;

Land (21)

1x Academy Ruins
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Tundra
2x Underground Sea

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
2x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (9)

2x Lingering Souls
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Creature (9)

2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Planeswalker (2)

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Council's Judgment
1x Disenchant
1x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Meddling Mage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution


Im thinking about Lilly instead of darkblast...


I'm trying something similar. I like maxing out on 4 ponder and running a 3 DTT - 1J TMS split. This fills up the graveyard a little faster while digging for answers to the questions presented. I also like that DTT makes the deck even more 'toolbox' oriented than before. I don't really like the nombo between DTT and lingering souls/ snap caster but the cards are obviously powerful. I think going down to 2 snap caster is correct but I think True Name Nemesis is going to be good again and would rather play those instead of lingering souls.

Land (21)

4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
3x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (10)
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Council's Judgment

Creature (9)

2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Planeswalker (1)

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1x Force of Will
1x Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
2x Meddling Mage
1x Fluster Storm
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Pithing Needle
1x Path to Exile
1x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Supreme Verdict

I'm trying this list out first to see how powerful dig through time really is in a stone blade shell. 2 Dig through time seems like a more reasonable number in the long run.

I used to run 2 rest in peace in the board that would come in handy for graveyard match ups as well as RUG delver and Jund (a matchup I struggle with). I would usually cut snap casters for them and it worked out will. Because this list is running DTT, I feel its best to switch to another form of graveyard hate like surgical (which is good with snap caster). It makes my Jund/ dredge match ups a little worse but life goes on. I could very easily be wrong about supreme verdict.. Deluge might just be better. I also want to fit one counter spell in the list like traditional lists. Maybe cut a ponder?

The sideboard definitely has a lot of flexibility. I think 3 force in the main will be acceptable again now that Cruise is banned.

Thoughts?

[spencerma]

This is definitely going to come back, especially since we still get to play with DTT! Seems to me a 'flash' based version (as H puts it) is the direction to go in to best synergize with Dig. Snapcasters, Clique, good ol' Counterspell, and Digs to find Verdicts/Deluge when you need them.

@ trolliver - Darkblast was good pre-ban but Deathrite is going to come back in a big way... I thought Deluge was sweet in the pre-Cruise meta (look at the success of Shardless BUG), and I would definitely think about turning that 'blast into at least 1 more Deluge. And I would play at least 3 Meddling Mage in the board - guy is just nuts and you always want him in your opener vs combo, not to mention he's really good in multiples too. Mage is actually most of the reason I like UWx Blade as an archetype these days.

I agree... Meddling Mage is the main reason for liking UW stone blade decks too. Its such a powerful/ flexible sideboard card and can come in in so many match ups... I really hope traditional esper makes a resurgence... not death blade crap. I hate getting punished for such greedy mana bases...

[tescrin]

I took the (very experimental) deck below to a local and went 2-0-2, drawing with Reanimator (slow play..), Miracles (slow play..), beating Miracles and Burn. I played an off-the-record match with a third miracles guy and 2-0'd him as well.

I brewed the below specifically out of my hatred for Miracles and slowly growing hatred for D&T and the meta-call was real. The SoLaS is to deal with the influx of D&T and Maverick I'm experiencing and the fact that TNN can't hold a candle to Thopters

There's a lot wrong with the below, especially the sideboard; but this is how we learn:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

Side:
1 Blind Obedience
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kor Sanctifiers
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Wasteland


The deck felt quite smooth and I went 5-1 in games with Miracles players; so the hate is real. Removing DRS and adding any of the above should push it even further lopsided, though I'm a bit concerned about getting stable against Delver.

My current thinking is:
+1 Basic, +1 Strand, +1 Tundra; [-2 Waste, -1 Bayou]
+1 Thopter Foundry, +3 Baleful Strix (hedge against Delver; Foundry and Strix are both fantastic here)
-1 Sideboard, +1 not-garbage sideboard

Noteable design interactions:
-Sculler + Foundry can become a 1/1 Flying Thoughtseize.
-Revoker + Liliana is a lockout against S&T
-Top + Tezz can be used to guarantee hits on his +1 if needed.
-Lily +1 and Sword of the Meek

[tescrin]

I ran this yesterday for testing against Dredge, D&T, Reanimator, and BUG Delver


Main Deck:
2 Kor Sanctifiers
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
2 Abolish
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce


Reanimator: Difficulties in Game-1s as one might imagine. 0-2 since both practices were G1 (and he had decent draws each game)

D&T: 3-2 preboard. I think the SoLaS I used to have would be good; but it's not the breaking point. The match teeters on the edge of how well your early game develops and if you can get unanswered Thopters/Jitte.

Dredge: 2-0 (only postboard) The current side is very strong. No preboard since we know he's heavily favored.

BUG Delver: 2-4 preboard (and probably postboard.) The disruption here is just a bit too much since Goyf is fed by 'Walkers and Artifacts too easily; making the clock too hard to fend off while they Decay something here and Hymn you there.


Thoughts:
-Batterskull isn't necessary with Tezz and equips. It's so rare to get it down and it was relevant on only a single situation (against Dredge.) SoLaS blocks all removal and prohibits being blocked by decks that I need the extra game against
-4/4/1 Was nice. Thopter combo was reliable. Triple Foundry/SFM never came up.
-Sanctifiers seem too rare and weak to run mained
-Delver issues imply that I need Strixes. The Artifact + Blue + 1/1 synergies add up to something that's too obvious and good to pass up.
-If adding Strixes (and requiring good openers) I don't need/want SDT for the Tezz interaction; it makes sense to go to Ponders now.
-SFM can probably be 3x since it's not required to win MUs and is low impact early.


Changes:
-1 SFM, -2 Kor, +3 Strix
-2 SDT, -1 Fetch, +3 Ponder

The extra 5-6 actual "draw" effects should make the land drop reliable enough.

[tescrin]

Played the below 3-1 tonight (tied 3rd) (22 players), losing to Shardless BUG (but it was a back and forth grind all three games.)
Beat BUG Control, Jund-Fit, and Belcher, which are all meh-matchups I think


3 Baleful Strix
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ponder
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
2 Abolish
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spell Pierce



Shardless (1-2) - G1 I get him with giant guys off of Tezz, G2 and G3 are back and forth grind fests but after enough Visions and Goyfs I can't keep up. G1 I had the combo and I think G2/G3 I couldn't quite get it together because I was always teetering.

BUG Control (1-0) - Took a couple turns to figure out what exactly it was, but he lands Lily and Koira and they last most of the game while we grind. He Deeds me a time or two and I keep hanging in there with minor value out of Thopter and Tezz drawing me cards. I end up running out of Foundries and have a 6/7 Strix on the board, so I start swinging and between chumps and removal I get there while he digs like crazy and 9/9 Krakens are pouring into his board. We finish as turns are called. This game was teetering on the edge one way or the other the whole time. There was a turn he happened to draw Deed the exact turn after I assemble the combo; brutal and fun.

Jund-Fit (2-0) - This was better than expected, simply because I played around his engines and discarded his bombs before he could get to them. I stuck Revoker on Deed when I had the combo up and he couldn't do much about it before the clock that 4-8 thopters a turn got him.

Belcher (2-1) - I put him on Storm as I feel like I've played him once before, but I don't have Force Main and he's acting very "fair deck" kinda guy. I don't have interaction and die T1. The other two games are FoW followed by cantrips -> Revoker and Sculler and Revoker->SFM. Between discard and Spierces and Forces the initial FoW basically gets there. Glad I had it! I will say, G2 he waited a turn or two to go off and I'm glad I know the deck just well enough to FoW the right thing (Wish/Belcher.) I probably would've been eaten by Goblins had he had that instead.


A set of very difficult matches since the first three can all go just as big/grindy and two of them run maindeck Deeds! The fact I slogged through multiple Deeds, walkers everywhere, and ground against 9/9s, Thragtusks, and other nonsense is a testament to how powerful Tezz/Thopter combo really is. The amount of hate post-board for combo seems adequate. (4 discard, 3 sculler, 3 lily, 3 pierce, 4 FoW, 4 Revoker, random gravehate/abolish) and the deck has continued to generally test well. I can probably swap a scrubland or a random cards for Academy Ruins; it's obnoxious running out of Foundries. The Ensnaring Bridge was very hit and miss, it's probably too slow for the Goyf decks (which can answer it anyway) and it's probably not reliable enough against grindy problem decks as a singleton, so it may just become a Strix.

SoLaS was terrible today for obvious reasons. I think I'll move to SoFaI since it's application against Shardless is strong and it's just good in general. SoLaS just feels meh for MUs that I can probably just fly over.



Hope someone gives a damn about this thread again soon :P

[lavafrogg]

I'm trying something similar. I like maxing out on 4 ponder and running a 3 DTT - 1J TMS split. This fills up the graveyard a little faster while digging for answers to the questions presented. I also like that DTT makes the deck even more 'toolbox' oriented than before. I don't really like the nombo between DTT and lingering souls/ snap caster but the cards are obviously powerful. I think going down to 2 snap caster is correct but I think True Name Nemesis is going to be good again and would rather play those instead of lingering souls.

Land (21)

4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Artifact (3)

1x Batterskull
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Instant (16)

4x Brainstorm
3x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (10)
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Council's Judgment

Creature (9)

2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

Planeswalker (1)

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

1x Force of Will
1x Thoughtseize
2 Containment Priest
2x Meddling Mage
1x Fluster Storm
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Pithing Needle
1x Path to Exile
1x Disenchant
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Supreme Verdict

I'm trying this list out first to see how powerful dig through time really is in a stone blade shell. 2 Dig through time seems like a more reasonable number in the long run.

I used to run 2 rest in peace in the board that would come in handy for graveyard match ups as well as RUG delver and Jund (a matchup I struggle with). I would usually cut snap casters for them and it worked out will. Because this list is running DTT, I feel its best to switch to another form of graveyard hate like surgical (which is good with snap caster). It makes my Jund/ dredge match ups a little worse but life goes on. I could very easily be wrong about supreme verdict.. Deluge might just be better. I also want to fit one counter spell in the list like traditional lists. Maybe cut a ponder?

The sideboard definitely has a lot of flexibility. I think 3 force in the main will be acceptable again now that Cruise is banned.

Thoughts?

Why did everyone stop playing esper? Are blasts that big of a deal? Meddling mage is the strongest when you can inquisition turn 1 and I feel that lingering souls is great in this metagame.

[Ltj999]

Why did everyone stop playing esper? Are blasts that big of a deal? Meddling mage is the strongest when you can inquisition turn 1 and I feel that lingering souls is great in this metagame.


Nah, esperblade (as in the jace control deck esper) has it's thread in bladecontrol.

[Clark Kant]

This forgotten deck just got a huge upgrade...

Kaldra Compleat {7}

Legendary Artifact — Equipment

Living Weapon

Indestructible

Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."

Equip {7}

Brainstorm and Jace allowing you to fetch this card back into your deck when drawn is a very nice advantage to Esperblade

Pairing it with Thoughtseize/FoW/Misdirection/Daze to protect Stoneforge until it can drop this down is going to do some damage.

[Clark Kant]

This forgotten deck just got a huge upgrade...

Kaldra Compleat {7}

Legendary Artifact — Equipment

Living Weapon

Indestructible

Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."

Equip {7}

Brainstorm and Jace allowing you to fetch this card back into your deck when drawn is a very nice advantage for Esperblade

Pairing it with Thoughtseize/FoW/Misdirection/Daze to protect Stoneforge until it can drop this down is going to do some damage.

[KobeBryan]

This forgotten deck just got a huge upgrade...

Kaldra Compleat {7}

Legendary Artifact — Equipment

Living Weapon

Indestructible

Equipped creature gets +5/+5 and has first strike, trample, indestructible, haste, and "Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a creature, exile that creature."

Equip {7}

Brainstorm and Jace allowing you to fetch this card back into your deck when drawn is a very nice advantage for Esperblade

Pairing it with Thoughtseize/FoW/Misdirection/Daze to protect Stoneforge until it can drop this down is going to do some damage.

I dunno man. That 3 mana to return the card is invaluable. And that life gain from Batterskull is very very useful. STP is still a thing

[Clark Kant]

I would play both. Grab batterskull against control matchups. Grab this vs aggro/combo matchups. Use Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle them back in when drawn.

[Fox]

I dunno man. That 3 mana to return the card is invaluable. And that life gain from Batterskull is very very useful. STP is still a thing
...And Teferi, Jace, Brazen, Karn. About the only thing this was going to be good against was Kcomm....which now plays Brazen and has always had Jace bounce, and can effortlessly kill this with Angrath's Rampage sacrifice clause.

[z0anthr0pe]

Jankyb did well in a recent MTGO legacy challenge with the list below. I might give it or something like it a spin at the next FNM.

1 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Brazen Borrower
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire // Ice
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Kaldra Compleat

4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Force of Negation
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meltdown
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ruination
2 Surgical Extraction