[Deck] Zenith-Rebirth Order (ZeRo) — Flashless Hulk Combo

[Xantid Swarm]

Is it right to run 61 cards if the 61st card is a 4th gitaxian probe?

I think it is right, as I plan to try the exact same list you just posted +1 Probe. I think the list is better with 4 Probe and 61 cards than 3 Probe and 60 cards. The only disadvantage of a 61 list is that you lose small fractions of pourcentage of having a green source in your starting 7. Since we are now able to cast Probe with a Tropical Island if needed, the life cost will almost never matter. I run sometime 60 and sometime 61 cards since a long time now and I guaranty you that you will notice no difference especially with Probe as the 61th card. Also, at 61 cards it's a bit easier to side-out cards without cutting important things.

I do not recommand to run only 2 Pattern main deck in a list that cannot GSZ for Fauna Shaman. We need to keep a critical mass of combo cards and going lower than 7 NO+Pattern is too low for my taste. If you absolutly want to run 60 cards, I don't see what you can take out except your 4th Probe, but I feel the deck is better with the full playset.

About Intuition: I don't know how it can fit in the list, so I just plan to try Brainstorm for now. If the blue splash prove worthing it, I'll think about adding 1 or 2 Intuition latter.

One random thought - I see 1 matchup in wich I would consider to side-out Brainstorm: against Merfolk I could see myself doing -4 Brainstorm, -2 Tropical Island, +4 Carpet, +1 Swarm, +1 Pridemage.

[JBlaze]

cutting a pattern sucks it was just the only thing i could see that was even a possibility the list is so tight at this point. I have been playing magic for along time and I think this is the first time I have ever thought it was alright to run 61 cards but I probe is just that weird card. I will take your advice and play 61.

[Rafa]

I'm testing the Brainstorms and dudes, it's being awesome!
Lol, how couldn't we see it before? The best card in the format...

[.dk]

wow, i'm not sure how I missed all the replies in the last week. just noticed them now...

So, I wasn't totally sold on Brainstorm replacing Probe per Kid's list - Probe is just so powerful with Therapy. However... with the lists that are including both, I'm pretty excited. I like the 61 card list with 4 probes as well - was thinking about seeing how Thoughtseize worked in that spot as well, but I'm pretty sure that Probe would be superior in this case due to the lowered land count. The cantrip and effectively 0 mana cost probably outweighs the discard and B for thoughseize. Probably worth experimenting at least after I get more familiar with the Brainstorm lists.

I am very wary of only running 1 basic though - another thought might be to run 3 probes and the 61st card as another forest. Will need to goldfish the list a bit before playing around with it though.

This is awesome! Although I'm not really sure what the heck I'm going to do in the mirror when I play Kid Victorious... ;)

[Xantid Swarm]

I'm testing the Brainstorms and dudes, it's being awesome!


Same.


Lol, how couldn't we see it before? The best card in the format...

I'll take the blame for this. Damn, I play this deck since so long and never tried it, thinking that a fourth color for just 1 card do not worth it. But Brainstorm is that good.

[.dk]

Well, I took the following list to LGS yesterday for 4 rounds of Legacy, and ended up 2-0-2 (yeah, bizzare, I know). I was going to write up a report on it, but it really wasn't very interesting overall, and one of the decks I played would hardly be considered Legacy.


1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs


SIDEBOARD

4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Null Rod
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Slaughter Pact
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Xantid Swarm


In a nutshell, I stomped Merfolk, stomped CruelUltimatum.dec (the non-Legacy one), drew against a really interesting RUG Pyromancer Ascension/Isochron Scepter build (1-1-1), and then drew against RUG Tempo (1-1-1).

The real conundrum for me came with the RUG Tempo Matchup - best I can tell, this seems to be one of our most difficult matchups. The combination of burn, counters, and stifle are pretty brutal. My opponent kept drawing into stifles, and then flashing them back with snapcaster to stifle the xantid swarm I had in play, and usually with another 2-3 cards in hand, so it was making it very difficult for me to go off. I felt like I had him on his heels most of the time, but wasn't able to get through all of the disruption and burn. Game 2, he ended up Clique-ing me into the win (had viscera seer, cabal therapy, and tinder wall in hand - he cliqued away the therapy and I drew academy rector, which I was able to cast along with the viscera seer and tinder wall for the win due to Carpet).

My sideboard plan ended up being -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Birds, -2 Ancient Tomb, -1 Protean Hulk, +4 Carpet, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Pridemage, +2 Xantid Swarm. I'm not totally sure if this was correct - any thoughts on that? I was hesitant to board out the Thoughtseizes as they have been amazing since switching to the Brainstorm list - with the draw and filtering from Brainstorm they seem to be superior to Gitaxian Probes (in my opinion). I also did kind of want the Wheels in for Snapcaster (with an added bonus of shrinking Goyfs), but they didn't seem better than anything else.

I'm having a tough time with the sideboard plans at this point as the list is becoming even tighter than it was...

Couple other quick comments - I ended up boarding like Xantid Swarm suggested against merfolks (sided out the trops and brainstorms), and that was pretty awesome.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is in the sideboard for a few reasons - Kid Victorious plays at my store and in case I encountered the mirror match, that seemed potentially decent. We also have a few ANT and TES players from time to time which shuts off Cabal Ritual and IGGY loops as well as some dredge players (although our matchup there isn't too bad to being with).

[Irenicus]

Hey there,

I have been following this deck and thread for a while now, but was never that interested in playing the deck because I didn't like the amount of dead cards that you sometimes draw. Anyway, the addition of Brainstorm got me interested again and I played the deck for the first time in a tournament yesterday and went 4-0 easily.

1. Enchantress (2-0)
2. GWB Junk (2-0)
3. Rb Goblins (2-0)
4. Hive Mind (2-1)

Granted, I didn't play vs. any bad matchup and just faced one blue deck but overall I was quite happy with the deck. My list was quite close to Felix' recent one, but I changed the SB a bit. I liked the feeling that my opponent didn't know what I was up to quite a lot but this will change for the next tournaments. ;)

To close this small feedback up I want to list the points which I didn't like:

1) I missed a green sac-outlet in a few games and was wondering whether or not one of the black ones should be swapped for the Resulka.

2) In SB-games I missed a proactive card which I could tutor for with Zenith. Maybe Fauna Shaman should be somewhere in the 75.

3) Brainstorm was quite good but maybe only 3 should be maindecked because in my experience Brainstorm is at its best in game 2 and 3.

Just my afterthoughts after bringing the deck to my small weekly tournament.

Thank you for all the work you have done so far.

Greetings from Germany,

Felix

[Rafa]

1) I missed a green sac-outlet in a few games and was wondering whether or not one of the black ones should be swapped for the Resulka.

I feel the same way about it!

[OneWingedAngel]

I feel the same way about it!

I'd probably stick to siezes main too like .dk. I've ran the list with probes and I noticed that I want a couple of cards that would interact with the opponent's hand as opposed to seeing and cantripping. Plus, my manabase became brittle with the inclusion of trops and my meta is swarming with wastes and stifles. I'd like to put another forest back. My sac outlets are just fine i guess so I dont miss the rusalka that much.

[.dk]

I'd probably stick to siezes main too like .dk. I've ran the list with probes and I noticed that I want a couple of cards that would interact with the opponent's hand as opposed to seeing and cantripping. Plus, my manabase became brittle with the inclusion of trops and my meta is swarming with wastes and stifles. I'd like to put another forest back. My sac outlets are just fine i guess so I dont miss the rusalka that much.

There was actually one game I was playing on saturday that I would have liked to have the rusalka so i could combo off with hulk. Had a natural order and GSZ in hand, with 7 mana available - I ended up having to go with Progenitus instead, but that seemed to work fine. Honestly though, that was only the second time since I started playing this deck that I actually wanted Rusalka though. I don't think it's worth cutting one of the black sac outlets for - I think overall the list is stronger as is without Rusalka based on my testing thus far. Granted, that's not a ton of games yet though...

[OneWingedAngel]

There was actually one game I was playing on saturday that I would have liked to have the rusalka so i could combo off with hulk. Had a natural order and GSZ in hand, with 7 mana available - I ended up having to go with Progenitus instead, but that seemed to work fine. Honestly though, that was only the second time since I started playing this deck that I actually wanted Rusalka though. I don't think it's worth cutting one of the black sac outlets for - I think overall the list is stronger as is without Rusalka based on my testing thus far. Granted, that's not a ton of games yet though...

Same here, and granted that rusalka's ability requires mana to activate which I think is very critical since the deck is mana hungry.

[Xantid Swarm]

We need to keep 2 black creature with sac ability (Feeder + Seer) to be able to combo around removal. Me too I sometime miss Rusalka in the deck but I didnt lose a match because I cut it yet. At least Brainstorm help to keep Progenitus in the deck when we don't have a sac outlet.

[Anusien]

Is Veteran Explorer worth considering?

[OneWingedAngel]

Is Veteran Explorer worth considering?

I think that was addressed in a previous post. As far as I can remember, having him in the deck will be counter productive since you are accelerating you're opponent at the same which opens the deck to more disruption.

[OneWingedAngel]

We need to keep 2 black creature with sac ability (Feeder + Seer) to be able to combo around removal. Me too I sometime miss Rusalka in the deck but I didnt lose a match because I cut it yet. At least Brainstorm help to keep Progenitus in the deck when we don't have a sac outlet.

We're you successful on your tests with BS and probes main?

[Irenicus]

I just reread the whole thread and partly the primer/salvation-thread and am currently toying with the numbers of the cards in the maindeck.

The following slots/numbers should or can be discussed in my opinion (just regarding the maindeck):

3rd and 4th Probe (Maybe 2 or 3 are better than 4, because drawing two of them or chaining them into each other isn’t that perfect.)


4th Brainstorm (Brainstorm works really well in this deck, but maybe 3 are enough, because it slows down the deck a little bit. I haven't played the deck that much but from my experience with 3 Brainstorms it might be right to cut to only one Tropical Island.[maybe even with 4 Brainstorms])


2nd Protean Hulk (I understand that the 2nd Hulk is needed to play around graveyard-hate after boarding but is it essential for the maindeck?)


60/61 cards (Playing either 60 or 61 cards isn't that big of a difference even more when more so when the added card is Gitaxian Probe. But I still like to shave a deck to 60 cards if possible.)


20/21 lands (Historically the decks has played 22 or 21 lands most of the time. Therefore I am not quite sure that 20 is the right way to go. Even more because I would like to fit in 2 basic Forest.)



Overall there aren't that many cards that can be changed. But even slight changes might make the deck a little bit better. I know that most of the work has been done and I don't want to rebuild the deck in any major way.

[.dk]

Is Veteran Explorer worth considering?

yeah, Xantid Swarm hit the nail on the head a couple pages back. I was trying to fit Explorer in there somehow, but really you just end up wasting cabal therapy sac outlets on him, when you really need them for Hulk. The symmetrical mana ramp I don't feel is nearly as big of a problem as burning a therapy - we're going to be more powerful with our ramp than most other decks, provided that we have a sac outlet...

[Xantid Swarm]

We're you successful on your tests with BS and probes main?

Well, I runned Brainstorm in my three last events to an overall 10-5 record that I'm not happy with. I really played poorly lastly: I did a lot of small mistakes and at leat two real blunders (like casting a GSZ for 0 with 1 Dryad in play and the other sided-out...).

Despite my misplays, Brainstorm as been really good each time I casted it. Dodging discard did'nt came often yet but using BS to replace 2 dead card for 3 goodies is always awesome. It sometime gave me a shot at winning unwinable games: drawing things like Carpet of Flowers + Natural Order + Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm, when you hand is Hulk + Progenitus, is just insane.

I absolutly love my list with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Therapy, 4 Probe by the way. I often find myself holding a Therapy in starting hand until I draw (or Brainstorm into) a Probe. NO + Therapy are the two best cards in the deck and I can see how 4 BS + 4 Probe permit to see those cards more often.

Until now, the inclusion of a fourth color did'nt cost me too much. I lost 1 game to Price of Progress because I just have 1 basic land and that's almost it. That said, GSZ feel a bit less good without Fauna Shaman and Rusalka in the deck. I use GSZ to get a Bird more often then ever.

So overall I'm convinced that Brainstorm is a positive addition for the deck (thanks again, Victorious Kid, for the tech).

A side note: I am now running 1 Ethersworn Canonist in my SB against storm (in addition to 1 Null Rod) and I recommand to try it. Canonist won me a match against storm yesterday. Also, the situation where I could trigger a Pattern of Rebirth in emergency to get Ethersworn Canonist came two times since I use it. I know it's an unlikely situation but it's good to have this option against storm decks.

[JBlaze]

I think having a second forest is really important. Not 100% sure what the cut should be. With 4x Brainstorm and probe I have been testing only two patterns 21 land and getting good results.


Side note- I only bring this up because Xantid said that he had made a lot of little mistakes and I know I have as well. this deck is really hard to play. Not that it was super easy before but now we have brainstorm plus , zenith,therapy, fetching the right lands, the combo, and sideboarding a legacy combo deck just saying it pays to practice.

[.dk]

Xantid Swarm - do you really think that with running Brainstorms, Gitaxian Probe is still better than Thoughtseize? I'm not saying you're wrong - I am curious as to your reasoning however.

[Xantid Swarm]

@.dk:
I never liked Thoughtseize in this deck and my conviction after testing is that Probe is better. Probe is almost completly free, it gave usefull information, it's never a dead draw like Thoughtseize is sometime and playing it make Therapy better. Thoughtseize cost 1 mana but most importantly, cost 1 card.

In my experience 4 Therapy is enough discard spells to regularly beat most blue decks, in addition to Swarm + 4 GSZ and our multiple win conditions.

Now for me, Brainstorm gave even more reasons to prefer Probe over Toughtseize, not less. First, running Tropical Island made it easier to cast Probe without paying life if that matter. Also, each time a black source is not available, it's impossible to cast Thoughtseize. Now that I play only 2 Bayou and with the fact that Brainstorm sometime force you to fetch for a Tropical instead of a Bayou, this situation can be a bit more frequent. Adding 3 or 4 black spells to the deck in the same time I cut 1 black source from it do not make sense for me.

But more important, with 4 Brainstorm you'll see in average more Therapies each game. If I didn't need Thoughtseize before, I need it less now since playing Brainstorm is like playing a bit more Therapies.

Let look it another way: each cantrip we play do not realy add to the card count of the deck because it replace itself. Probe and Brainstorm allow us to see a bit more each other card in the deck:
Playing 4 Therapy + 4 Probe in a 61 cards deck is like playing 4.2 Therapy in a 60 cards deck (4 / 57).
Playing 4 Therapy + 4 Probe + 4 Brainstorm in a 61 cards deck is like playing 4.5 Therapy in a 60 cards deck (4 / 53). The same is true for Natural Order, by the way.

I know this is not 100% accurate especialy for Brainstorm, because Brainstorm allow for card selection but also cost mana. But this gave a good aproximation.

@ Kid Victorious:
We can apply the same type of calculation to land count. With 4 Probe, I was playing 21 lands / 61 cards, the equivalent of 22.1 lands in a 60 cards deck with no cantrip (21 / 57). (By the way this mean that those who cut 4 Probe to add 3 Thoughtseize are better to raise their land count by 1.) Now, with 4 Brainstorm, my 20 lands count is equivalent to 22.6 lands (20 / 53)! This show how Brainstorm allow to cheat on land count, something most Legacy players already know well. This is why I think 20 lands and not 21 is now the right number.

So, Kid Victorious, if you absolutly want to add 1 basic land, I think you are better to cut a land instead of a Pattern: perhaps a Tomb, a Tropical or a Tower? In my opinion, we are better to run only 1 basic and sometime pay the price for it. Anyway, with 4 color I would find myself not being able to fetch for 2 basics most of the time because I need too much duals.

@ Irenicus:
Of all your propositions of tweaking at numbers the one that make most sense to reduce card count to 60 is to cut 1 Hulk. The main reason to play 2 Hulk is to be able to get one with NO or Pattern when we have the other in hand. But with Brainstorm and the possibility to put back Protean Hulk in the deck if need, it's perhaps ok to cut 1. I find myself siding out 1 Hulk more often than before now I run Brainstorm. That said, for now I still feel more safe with 2 Hulk (and 61 cards).

[Rafa]

Felix, congrats on the TOP 10 Coolest Decks In Legacy’s History (according to Drew Levin)!!!!!!
The deck is really special!

[JBlaze]

@xantid:
As always your points are well thought out, You are right about not being able to fetch two basics.

@dk
I would recommend running thoughtseize in the sideboard. Legacy on Sunday right? Maybe we will finally get to play the mirror match.

@Rafa
I dion't have starcity premium. What did Levin say about the deck?

[.dk]

@ Xantid - ok, you make a pretty strong case there. And the more I've been playing, the more I think I'm putting too much stock into disrupting what my opponent is doing, when I could just be winning instead. I think I'll try changing the 3 Thoughtseize back to 4 Probe, and cut 1 Tropical Island or 1 Forest. Maybe I'll try as you suggested and just go for the gold and run 1 basic...

@ Kid Victorious - no room in the board for Thoughtseize for me. Upon more though (as I mentioned above), the matches that I think I'd want to board it in are against faster combo - and I'm not sure I can dilute the deck any more when sideboarding to add in thoughtseize as well. Slaughter Pact, Null Rod, and even Wheel of Sun and Moon can be very useful against storm combo (Wheel keeps them off threshold and IGGY loops) - not sure where I'd fit Thoughtseize in and if it would be better. The other cards in the board are good in other matchups as well, and not sure I'd want to give that up. And yep - Legacy Sunday. Maybe we'll have a mirror match to report!

[Irenicus]

Yesterday I played my second tournament with this deck and finished 4th out of 39 participants. I played the following list:

Maindeck(60):

1 Academy Rector
1 Body Double
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
1 Reveillark
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Protean Hulk
2 Tinder Wall
4 Birds of Paradise

3 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Brainstorm

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard(15):

1 Xantid Swarm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thoughtseize
4 Slaughter Pact
4 Carpet of Flowers

Quick summary of my matches:

1st Round: UBR Tempo [0:2]

G1 he stats with Lavamancer into 2 Wastelands. G2 I mulligan to 6 and had a chance because he didn't find his 2nd color, but I didn't find my 3rd land after being wastelanded twice and therefore lose to a Delver.

2nd Round: UR Burn [2:0]

Both games are quite close. In G2 I therapy for Extraction and hit two. He then brainstormed into another one which I could handle.

3rd Round: Reanimator [2:0]

He didn't really know what he was up against and let a Zenith for 1 (=Xantid) resolves which won me G1. G2 he doesn't get any reanimation going and I win turn 5 or something.

4th Round: Affinity [2:0]

I had pretty good hands in both games and won both on turn 3 (G2 I even took a mulligan and had to play around Crypt).

5th Round: Enchantress [2:0]

G1 I was able to combo before he hit any hate. G2 Pridemage took care of his only hate and I won quite easily after that.

6th Round: UW-old school-Landstill [2:1]

G1 was really close and interesting. He played an early Standstill and I waited until I had a lot of mana. Then I played 3 Therapies and 1 Thoughseize and hardcasted Hulk by using two Tombs and going to 1 life and won by flashbacking one of the Therapies. G2 I lost to a Humility which I couldn't handle. G3 was quite awkward. He had lots of countermagic but I was able to sneak in a Xantid and he wasn't drawing any StPs. But I wasn't drawing any sac-outlet until I had double NO which won me the game.

I ended the tournament with a 5-1 record in matches and 10-3 in games. I am still quite happy with the deck and like all the possibilities that it offers you as a pilot.

Some random afterthoughts:

I still think that an additional sac-outlet would be nice. But I am not sure that it has to be Rusalka. Fauna Shaman didn't do anything and was boarded out in most matchups. Will be replaced soon. The 2 Thoughtseizes came in handy. I like Probes in theory but I don't think that they fit my playstyle and that they do enough overall and especially in multiples. With more discard I definitely want the 3rd Bayou in the deck. One City of Solitude might come in handy in the SB. Maybe I'll try the 4th pattern in conjunction with an Emerakul in the 75 cards. The 4th Brainstorm should be in the deck somewhere and maybe we can think about cutting the Cantor. In my opinion it is one of the weakest cards and with Brainstorm in addition to the "full-colored" manabase he might not be needed anymore.

That's it for now. Thanks again for all the work. The deck is really fun to play with!

[justMAD]

Yesterday I played my second tournament with this deck and finished 4th out of 39 participants.

You should add the fact, that there were 2 ZeRo in the field and both went to the top8 (the other placed 8th with 4-2) and the top 5 player alls had 15point. ;)

[death]

Felix, congrats on the TOP 10 Coolest Decks In Legacy’s History (according to Drew Levin)!!!!!!
The deck is really special!

I'm going to put Drew's article under the OP for sure. Props to Felix L.!



I still think that an additional sac-outlet would be nice. But I am not sure that it has to be Rusalka. Fauna Shaman didn't do anything and was boarded out in most matchups. Will be replaced soon. The 2 Thoughtseizes came in handy. I like Probes in theory but I don't think that they fit my playstyle and that they do enough overall and especially in multiples. With more discard I definitely want the 3rd Bayou in the deck. One City of Solitude might come in handy in the SB. Maybe I'll try the 4th pattern in conjunction with an Emerakul in the 75 cards. The 4th Brainstorm should be in the deck somewhere and maybe we can think about cutting the Cantor. In my opinion it is one of the weakest cards and with Brainstorm in addition to the "full-colored" manabase he might not be needed anymore.

I suggest you put Rusalka back in the 60. NO/Pattern + GSZ (-> Rusalka) = combo. Whereas with Fauna Shaman it will take forever.
Congratulations on your top 8!

[dameus]

Fun deck! As a recent converted diehard Aluren player, I know a little about removal-resistant, creature-based combo decks needing 2GG : ) This deck is faster, more consistent, resilient, and flexible. I do miss not having more disruption, but ya can't have everything.
A couple questions: I assume vs Blue you go for Swarm 1st before Dryad w/ GSZ, rt? Also, in the primer, it mentions if you get pattern on T2, you can use NO if you don't have another sac outlet. I'm assuming that's a bit of a corner case vs storm or other decks that aren't expected to have removal. It seems the normal play would be just to drop Progenitus and race. Or am I missing something?
I'm playtesting w/ a playset of Brainstorm and 1x Slaughter Pact MD and trying to do w/o Shaman or Rusalka. I find myself missing a sac outlet the most - forced to go 10/10 Pro everything instead of Hulk combo. Wish there was a green version of the Seer!

[Xantid Swarm]

I assume vs Blue you go for Swarm 1st before Dryad w/ GSZ, rt?

Depend. With Probe + Therapy (or Thoughtseize, if you choose to run that) you have a lot of way to see opponent hand, so you'll often know if you need Swarm or not. Also, if you have two combo cards, you can sometime walk one time into a Force of Will and combo out next turn. That said, if I don't have a way to see opponent hand and I only have 1 Pattern or NO, I will get Swarm first if possible.


Also, in the primer, it mentions if you get pattern on T2, you can use NO if you don't have another sac outlet. I'm assuming that's a bit of a corner case vs storm or other decks that aren't expected to have removal. It seems the normal play would be just to drop Progenitus and race. Or am I missing something?

If opponent do not run white, you can generaly put a Pattern on a creature or an Hulk into play and pass the turn without fear, saccing it next turn using NO. Against opponent that run white it's generally safer to get Progenitus if you can't sac Hulk immediatly, but if you can attach Pattern on a Wild Cantor or a Tinder Wall, you can also pass the turn without triggering it. Next turn, you'll sac your mana dude, get an Hulk and sac it to NO. Because the "sacrifice a creature" on NO is part of the casting cost, opponent have no room to anwser with Sword to Plowshare or Path to Exile. And again, remember that thanks to Probe or Therapy you'll often know wich line of play is safe.


I'm playtesting w/ a playset of Brainstorm and 1x Slaughter Pact MD and trying to do w/o Shaman or Rusalka. I find myself missing a sac outlet the most - forced to go 10/10 Pro everything instead of Hulk combo.

Playing 1 Slaughter Pact main have some merits, but if you have to choose between it and Rusalka, I'll recommand Rusalka. Sure Rusalka is mana hungry but it will raise your virtual sac-outlet count by 5 instead of 1.


Wish there was a green version of the Seer!

I will be so happy if Dark Ascension can gave us that...

[.dk]

Instead, DKA gives us grafdigger's cage - a 1 cmc artifact that shuts off the entire deck: GSZ, Natural Order, Pattern, fetching dryad arbor, protean hulk, and reveillark. That was pretty awesome of them... Any ideas other than running more pridemages? Trygon predator seems too slow. Maybe revisit the enlightened tutor package and seal of cleansing? That can be fetched by rector as well.

Brainstorm seems more important than ever now...

[Xantid Swarm]

Ouch. This gonna be a major problem.

What is realy horrible is that we can't relly on GSZ into Pridemage against this. Wow, Crypt, Relic or even Leyline of the Void look soo easy to fight compare to this. If this thing see a lot of play (and I guess it will), we'll have to run multiple Nature's Claim / Beast Within / Krosan Grip to keep a chance post-board. This will eat important side-board space and perhaps force us to side-in potential useless card in anticipation of it.

If one card can kill this deck, it just got printed. What a sad day.

[death]

You mean this card:
http://puremtgo.com/sites/default/files/u604/grafdiggers_cage.jpg

I feel this card was aimed to kill NO and GSZ builds directly (namely RUG Order from last year, and Maverick to a lesser extent). Bad news for us this deck relies on cheating creatures from the library, Pattern of Rebirth included. Meanwhile Reanimator and Drege should probably be laughing at the corner now because any good Reanimator list should have in their 75 3-4 Show and Tell/2-3 Chain of Vapor and Dredge 4 Nature's Claim/2-3 Ingot Chewer as anti-artifact GY hate anyway. Nothing changes except Ancient Grudge losing flashback. Unless this card gets maindecked in a Trinket Mage/Enlightened Tutor package, I don't quite agree that this card will hurt those aforementioned decks as much.

[Irenicus]

Hmm, in theory this is the best card against us and I am quite surprised that it only costs one generic mana.

But on the other hand I am not that sure that it will see much play as a 3 or 4 off in Legacy. At the moment Surgical Extraction is the graveyard-hate of choice and I can't see everybody switching Extractions for Cages. But we have to see what kind of impact that card will have...

[Xantid Swarm]

But on the other hand I am not that sure that it will see much play as a 3 or 4 off in Legacy. At the moment Surgical Extraction is the graveyard-hate of choice and I can't see everybody switching Extractions for Cages.

At the moment, this is my hope... The fact that this card affect both players will probably prevent decks running Snapcaster Mage, GSZ and decks using graveyard-based strategies to play it. It's crazy to realize how this card hurt, at various degree, every tier 1 strategies.

The problem is, at 1 colorless cmc, every deck that do not use those cards or strategies will certanly run some Grafdigger's Cage in board because for them it's better than most option. That mean every Zoo, Goblin, CB Top, Merfolk, W/B, Junk, Death and Taxes, Painter combo, Afinity, etc, could run it. All those decks, generaly easy matchups for us before, can now win any post-board game against us for 1 mana. This will force us to use multiple sideboard slots to fight back. There is no other way: we can't race a 1 mana card, GSZ is always too slow.

No doubt, this is really anoying. Be sure I'll enjoy every games I'll play with this deck before DKA is legal, because for the first time in one year and half, I'm not sure if the deck will still be competitive in a few weeks. We'll have to see... I'm also sure that if I continue to play this deck every week at LGS, this stupid card will soon be in most SB here.

Edit- @death: I don't think Reanimator and Natural Order was the main targets for Wizard, as they don't care that much about Legacy. I think this card was created mostly to keep in check abuses of graveyard strategies (Undying, Flashback, ...) and GSZ and Birthing Pod in Standard. The fact that this hurt "unfair" Legacy strategies is added bonus.

[Irenicus]

It's crazy to realize how this card hurt, at various degree, every tier 1 strategies.

I think that's a little bit exaggerated. It all depends on the tier 1 definition but Storm-Combo and Canadian aren't hurt that much by it. And even though the Cage does something vs. a lot of different decks it only shuts down a few (but unfortunately Flashless Hulk). E.g. I am not sure that it warrants bringing it in vs. Maverick or UW-Blade.

But in the end we have to wait and see. But I am quite optimistic that it won't be played in every SB and if it is, not as a 4-off.

[Xantid Swarm]

I think that's a little bit exaggerated. It all depends on the tier 1 definition but Storm-Combo and Canadian aren't hurt that much by it. And even though the Cage does something vs. a lot of different decks it only shuts down a few (but unfortunately Flashless Hulk). E.g. I am not sure that it warrants bringing it in vs. Maverick or UW-Blade.

But in the end we have to wait and see. But I am quite optimistic that it won't be played in every SB and if it is, not as a 4-off.

I guess hurt was not the right word. Affect would have been better. I understand Cage is not a good SB card against RUG Tempo but because it affect Snapcaster, RUG Tempo will probably choose to play Surgical Extraction over it. I'm prety sure the problem will came from decks that do not use grave or GSZ. That said, you are right, we have to wait and see.

[Irenicus]

I guess hurt was not the right word. Affect would have been better. I understand Cage is not a good SB card against RUG Tempo but because it affect Snapcaster, RUG Tempo will probably choose to play Surgical Extraction over it. I'm prety sure the problem will came from decks that do not use grave or GSZ. That said, you are right, we have to wait and see.

Agreed.

By the way how did your tournament last weekend go?

[dameus]

Ouch. This gonna be a major problem. ...

If one card can kill this deck, it just got printed. What a sad day.

Sheesh! I haven't even had a chance to play this deck for real yet. My Pattern of Rebirth's haven't even arrived in the mail :frown:

[Rafa]

They gotta be kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 colorless mana?!?!?!??!!
There is no other deck shutdown for this cost in the whole MTG history!

I'll have to start playing Living Wishes again =/

[Xantid Swarm]

The big question is how much play this card will see. If this thing see a lot of play, in 40% of SB and more, no doubt Hulk Rebirth will not be viable anymore. As I'm sure that at first everybody at LGS will run it, I will probably play something else for a couple of weeks in the begining of February anyway and watch closely for how much Cage are in sideboards.

If Cage end up seeing only little play, we can probably manage it by running 2-3 cards to supplement Pridemage in SB. My hope is that decks playing GSZ or Snapcaster Mage or using graveyard will prefer other grave-hate cards that don't affect themself.

What we need is a card that will do something even if opponent don't draw cage. So Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip is exclude for me - siding this against Zoo, Goblin, Merfolk or B/W just to fight potential Cage is stupid.

For me this is between Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within. If Cage do not see too much play, 2 or 3 Beast Within in the side could be enough, as we also bring in Pridemage and run a playset of Brainstorm to find those 3-4 cards. If opponent do not draw Cage, Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within can kill Gadock Teeg, Leyline of the Void or simply Protean Hulk.

[.dk]

The big question is how much play this card will see. If this thing see a lot of play, in 40% of SB and more, no doubt Hulk Rebirth will not be viable anymore. As I'm sure that at first everybody at LGS will run it, I will probably play something else for a couple of weeks in the begining of February anyway and watch closely for how much Cage are in sideboards.

If Cage end up seeing only little play, we can probably manage it by running 2-3 cards to supplement Pridemage in SB. My hope is that decks playing GSZ or Snapcaster Mage or using graveyard will prefer other grave-hate cards that don't affect themself.

What we need is a card that will do something even if opponent don't draw cage. So Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip is exclude for me - siding this against Zoo, Goblin, Merfolk or B/W just to fight potential Cage is stupid.

For me this is between Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within. If Cage do not see too much play, 2 or 3 Beast Within in the side could be enough, as we also bring in Pridemage and run a playset of Brainstorm to find those 3-4 cards. If opponent do not draw Cage, Maelstrom Pulse and Beast Within can kill Gadock Teeg, Leyline of the Void or simply Protean Hulk.

Ah, good call on running something to kill hulk with as well. That's a pretty great idea. I was originally thinking something like Seal of Primordium since it is fetchable with Rector as well as Enlightened Tutor (if that modification pans out sometime) - but running something that will kill Hulk seems like a better idea. Beast Within seems like it may be a better choice since we only need green to cast it. And it will kill Glacial Chasm in case anyone ever encounters the Lands matchup... ;)

[JBlaze]

Where is mental misstep when you need it. I was hoping for the green carrion feeder instead we get grafdigger's cage.

Before cage this deck was actually very hard to hate. We have a fast combo, probe/therapy, green sun for bullets and natural order for progenitus. There was no single card that I really feared. This card hits us on every axis and costs 1 colorless mana

What this card really does is enter us into the cycle of hate. You may still be able to win matches maybe even tournaments against unprepared metas but if this deck starts to put up results anybody who wants to beat it can throw a playset of grafdigger's cage in the sideboard and increase their win percentage game 2 and 3.

[Xantid Swarm]

Where is mental misstep when you need it. I was hoping for the green carrion feeder instead we get grafdigger's cage.

Before cage this deck was actually very hard to hate. We have a fast combo, probe/therapy, green sun for bullets and natural order for progenitus. There was no single card that I really feared. This card hits us on every axis and costs 1 colorless mana

What this card really does is enter us into the cycle of hate. You may still be able to win matches maybe even tournaments against unprepared metas but if this deck starts to put up results anybody who wants to beat it can throw a playset of grafdigger's cage in the sideboard and increase their win percentage game 2 and 3.

You are spot on. The fact this deck was almost impossible to hate was one of our main advantage over most combo decks, but now it's gone. It's why I'll take a break from playing it, especialy localy. The deck may remain playable if Cage do not see too much play but even then, every deck running Enlighten Tutor or Thinket Mage will be aweful matchup.

[Rafa]

Felix, what are you gonna play next?
I'll keep playing Hulk Rebirth until I get the cards I need to build another one...

[Xantid Swarm]

Felix, what are you gonna play next?

Still undecided yet.


I'll keep playing Hulk Rebirth until I get the cards I need to build another one...

Make us know if you succed despite Cage. I'll be ready to play this deck again if it's doable.

[kingofethanol]

Sheesh! I haven't even had a chance to play this deck for real yet. My Pattern of Rebirth's haven't even arrived in the mail :frown:

Right there with ya. Like everyone else on the thread, I'm just hoping it doesn't get played much. I've been trying to build a second deck, and this was one of my few hopes.

[.dk]

So, I was reading the Nic Fit thread, and saw something that was posted there (for a different reason), but may work here as well to combat cage.

what if, rather than running something like 3x Beast Within, we ran Living Wish somewhere in the 75? Would that work well enough, being able to wish for pridemage, while still letting you have some versatility in getting swarm, ooze, or whatever else out of the board? Not sure if it's better than Beast Within, but a different approach to think about, none the less...

and actually, we might be able to move phyrexian tower to the board so that we can tutor for it with living wish - and then get a tutorable sac outlet for hulk. hmm....

[Xantid Swarm]

One year ago, before Green Sun's Zenith was printed, I was playing a version of this deck using 4 Living Wish instead of GSZ. My usual wish targets, in sideboard was:
- Pridemage
- Xantid Swarm
- Academy Rector
- Viscera Seer
- Gaea's Cradle
- 1 fetchland

...But GSZ was a big upgrade for the deck. Switching back to Living Wish will make the deck better against Cage but less good in general, I fear.

[dameus]

Living Wish is definitely worth a thought. I really don't have room for it, tho. And I'm reluctant to sub out GSZ. GSZ for Dryad Arbor on T1 is just too good. Maybe a 3/3 split of LW/GSZ - removing shaman + 1 other. Tower would move to the SB, too, as dk suggested.

[Rafa]

at post #90 I shared my ex-LW list.

[Irenicus]

Imo Living Wish and Burning Wish might be good choices to combat cages. At the moment I am trying to build a version with Brainstorm and Burning Wish in the maindeck and 1 Emrakul in the 75. Haven't found a configuration that I like yet, but I hope I'll find one soon and will bring it to our weekly tournament today.

Maybe Living Wish works better in conjunction with Brainstorm and Burning Wish without Brainstorm, because otherwise the manabase can be quite difficult to manage. But Brainstorm does a lot for such a small cost (manacost and manabase-wise).

Anyway, I hope that we can find a list that keeps the strengths of older versions and is able to fight cages.

[Rafa]

Ok, next week my Punishing Maverick will be completely built (Karakas is coming from USA to Brazil), but I won't give up on our Hulk Rebirth so quick!

I've adapted the deck to overcome the cages and to still be able to use the new tech.

Here it is:

// Lands
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle (I was missing this one and now I can get the Tower with Living Wish)

// Creatures
2 [DIS] Protean Hulk
4 [M11] Birds of Paradise
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [SC] Xantid Swarm
2 [CST] Tinder Wall
1 [PLC] Body Double
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
3 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith (without rusalka and fauna shaman and with cages around, cutting 1 for a Living Wish seems just right)
3 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe (cut 1 for a Living Wish - no big deal since it is for saving the deck and getting the card you most need from outside the game. Not to mention a lot of people were playing just 3 anyways)
3 [JU] Living Wish (sacrificed a Wall of Roots to include the third LW. I always liked this card and 3 is the right number for it)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [PT] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Academy Rector (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [SC] Xantid Swarm (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph (it deals with all legendary creatures and artifacts! Jitte? Gaddock Teeg? Progenitus? lol)
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage (one of them to board in games 2 and 3, the other one stays at the sb - no need to explain)
SB: 1 [ARC] Shriekmaw (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre (quick response to graveyard based decks for 0 mana)
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze (no need to explain)
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within (deals with cages and everything else, helps to combo out and in the worst case helps to block - instant speed)
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland (there is always a dangerous land around - grove of the burnwillows, tabernacle, etc)
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [US] Phyrexian Tower (no need to explain, exept you can get it more often now)

I know it has a lot of tutors, but in the worst scenario we can get a phyrexian tower out of the LW, which is free, uncounterable and helps the combo a lot.

I'd appreciate suggestions!

[.dk]

Ok, next week my Punishing Maverick will be completely built (Karakas is coming from USA to Brazil), but I won't give up on our Hulk Rebirth so quick!

I've adapted the deck to overcome the cages and to still be able to use the new tech.

Here it is:

// Lands
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle (I was missing this one and now I can get the Tower with Living Wish)

// Creatures
2 [DIS] Protean Hulk
4 [M11] Birds of Paradise
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
1 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [SC] Xantid Swarm
2 [CST] Tinder Wall
1 [PLC] Body Double
1 [M11] Viscera Seer
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [CFX] Progenitus

// Spells
3 [UD] Pattern of Rebirth
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith (without rusalka and fauna shaman and with cages around, cutting 1 for a Living Wish seems just right)
3 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe (cut 1 for a Living Wish - no big deal since it is for saving the deck and getting the card you most need from outside the game. Not to mention a lot of people were playing just 3 anyways)
3 [JU] Living Wish (sacrificed a Wall of Roots to include the third LW. I always liked this card and 3 is the right number for it)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [PT] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Academy Rector (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [SC] Xantid Swarm (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph (it deals with all legendary creatures and artifacts! Jitte? Gaddock Teeg? Progenitus? lol)
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage (one of them to board in games 2 and 3, the other one stays at the sb - no need to explain)
SB: 1 [ARC] Shriekmaw (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre (quick response to graveyard based decks for 0 mana)
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze (no need to explain)
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within (deals with cages and everything else, helps to combo out and in the worst case helps to block - instant speed)
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland (there is always a dangerous land around - grove of the burnwillows, tabernacle, etc)
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog (no need to explain)
SB: 1 [US] Phyrexian Tower (no need to explain, exept you can get it more often now)

I know it has a lot of tutors, but in the worst scenario we can get a phyrexian tower out of the LW, which is free, uncounterable and helps the combo a lot.

I'd appreciate suggestions!

I think that's pretty close to what I'd run as well. I'm still a pretty huge proponent of running 2 basics though, so I'd likely cut the cradle. Cradle seems a lot better in the board anyway as a singleton wish target although not sure if there is room.

Not sure if cutting a GSZ is right for living wish - wouldn't cutting another probe be better? GSZ is pretty much the best spell in the deck, I think I always want 4.

Metamorph in the board along with shriekmaw is pretty awesome, btw.

One thing that does really concern me is storm combo - we were always fairly weak against storm combo and cutting slaughter pacts seems rough. Not sure how to keep 3 in the list (which is what I would want) though. Will have to test this against TES with a build like this to see how it goes.

Also, one last comment, while Living Wish does help with dealing with cage, it does make us quite vulnerable to spell snare in many situations. Pay attention to that blue mana opponents are holding up...

[Xantid Swarm]

The idea of playing a split of GSZ and Living Wish is probably the best solution to keep this deck playable.

@Rafa: Congrat for your list, seem solid. As you ask for suggestions, I would recommand a few change.

Main deck, I think Wall of Roots is needed in too much situations, I recommand to add 1. As you will probably end up using Living Wish for a land around 1 time on 3, with +3 Wish, you can cut a land to get the room for it (probably the Cradle).

I'm not sure if playing 3 Birds and 4 GSZ is not better than 4 Birds 3 Zenith. That said, I'm agree on your points on GSZ being less good without Fauna Shaman and Rusalka.

About sideboard:
Definilty add Gaea's Cradle there, as a wish target it's an awesome card for this deck.
2 Ooze is probably needed there, for the same reason you run 2 Pridemage.
Playing 1 Seer or 1 Feeder in the side is better than the Tower in my opinion.
I would also add 1 fetchland to give you the possibility of getting a missing color or a green creature (Dryad Arbor) using Living Wish.

Living Wish is nice against Gaddock Teeg because it allow you to get Academy Rector. So I'm sure you don't need Metamorph and Shriekmah in the side. Bojuka Bog is not so good when it came at sorcery speed and I'm not sure Wasteland worth a spot. I would certanly cut those four cards.

Edit- Ok, I just realized that Faerie Macabre is your main anti-grave taget for Living Wish, so no need for second Ooze.

I'm not sure 3 Beast Within are needed. Also, Living Wish into Etherworn Canonist seem too slow to give you a real chance against storm, so I'm not sure it worth the slot. Squeezing some Slaughter Pact and / or Carpet of Flower would be nice. I would suggest this SB:
1 Academy Rector
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Beast Within
1 Viscera Seer
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Carpet of Flower

[Qweerios]

What do you think of Harmonic Sliver instead of the second Qasali Pridemage in your SB? You could use the leftover Sliver body for a Therapy.

[.dk]

Felix - can you elaborate as to why viscera seer is a better choice in the board than phyrexian tower? Seems like being able to tutor for an uncounterable sac effect is pretty good.

Also definitely liking your board choice overall - Carpet of Flowers is SO good against blue decks! Hopefully I'll have some time to start testing some of these ideas out this week. We have a GPT at our LGS next weekend for GP Indy as well - not certain that I'll play this deck there or not (most people at the store put me on Zero now so it might not be a good choice - I and Kid Victorious apparently warped our local meta into storm combo since that was the only real bad matchup before DKA). However, if I do run it, I'll try to keep good notes and post a report. :)

[Rafa]

I was giving the deck a spin on MTGO and won all the 5 matches against Burn, BW Stoneblade, High Tide, Goblins and UW Stoneblade.
Really like it!

[Xantid Swarm]

@dk:
Viscera Seer vs Phyrexian Tower (in SB):
I understand your point about Tower being uncounterable, but don't you think opponent will counter Living Wish if they can anyway? Perhaps not always. And Tower is probably a bit harder to remove. Despite this, Seer is generally better is because it's instant win with Pattern or Rector where you sometime need 2 or 3 Tower activation.


most people at the store put me on Zero now so it might not be a good choice - I and Kid Victorious apparently warped our local meta into storm combo since that was the only real bad matchup before DKA

I'm sad to say that but it's probably a better idea to play something else if there is lot of storm in your meta right now. I really think the list with Living Wish is promizing but Wish eat sideboard space and make it even harder then before to fight storm. Also, if opponents anticipate two Hulk Rebirth players, I bet there will be a lot of Cages in sideboards. Let the deck take a rest and play it again when they don't expect it. Anyway this is my plan for now: I just builded Punishing Maverick and I'm working on an homebrew version of Death and Taxes with 4 Thalia that I will play in alternance for a few weeks. If Cage do not see too much play, I will certanly give a try to this Living Wish list.

[.dk]

@dk:
Viscera Seer vs Phyrexian Tower (in SB):
I understand your point about Tower being uncounterable, but don't you think opponent will counter Living Wish if they can anyway? Perhaps not always. And Tower is probably a bit harder to remove. Despite this, Seer is generally better is because it's instant win with Pattern or Rector where you sometime need 2 or 3 Tower activation.


Fair enough on Viscera Seer - may just need to test and see which comes up more often. You may be right about just countering living wish though.



I'm sad to say that but it's probably a better idea to play something else if there is lot of storm in your meta right now. I really think the list with Living Wish is promizing but Wish eat sideboard space and make it even harder then before to fight storm. Also, if opponents anticipate two Hulk Rebirth players, I bet there will be a lot of Cages in sideboards. Let the deck take a rest and play it again when they don't expect it. Anyway this is my plan for now: I just builded Punishing Maverick and I'm working on an homebrew version of Death and Taxes with 4 Thalia that I will play in alternance for a few weeks. If Cage do not see too much play, I will certanly give a try to this Living Wish list.

I was/am likely to put the deck down for local tournament play for a while for exactly that reason as well. Was already thinking of changing it up before cage was printed - but I'm still very excited about the deck and practicing with it. Maybe I'll show up with counterbalance for everyone who brought storm to beat me... ;)

[Xantid Swarm]

I was thinking once again today about Living Wish. Sure Living Wish give some resiliency against Cage but I don't like how it cost too much sideboard space, so I think about using Eladamri's Call instead.

Let compare Living Wish vs Eladamri's Call:

Both permit you to get Pridemage against Cage, or Academy Rector, a sac outlet or Xantid Swarm if needed.

Living Wish permit you to get lands (can be very revelent) and is easier to cast because it do not cost white mana. That said, I'm not sure it's too revelent because two important target (Pridemage and Rector) did cost white mana anyway. The biggest drawback is the fact you need to spend at the very least 5-6 sideboard slot to it (Pridemage, Rector, Swarm, a sac-outlet, 1 or 2 lands).

Eladamri's Call can't get lands but allow you to get Birds, Tinder Wall or Wall of Roots if needed (impossible to put those cards in side for Living Wish). It's also instant speed, something that can be revelent sometimes, to get let say Faerie Macabre against Reanimator. Eladamri's Call is also a shuffle effect for Brainstorm. Also, cornercase: if your Pridemage is already in the grave (after he killed a Cage), Eladamri's Call can get you Body Double to copy it and break a second Cage! But more important, Eladamri's Call do not cost any sideboard space.

At the end, I believe it's better to use 3 Eladamri's Call instead of 3 Living Wish in a list like the one Rafa posted. Or perhaps 2 Eladamri's Call + 1 Fauna Shaman, because after all Fauna Shaman is another way to get Pridemage around a Cage.

[.dk]

I can see that - it's certainly much "faster" than Living Wish. I could see a list something like the following with Eladamri's Call:


1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Fauna Shaman

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Eladamri's Call
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:

4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Xantid Swarm


One problem I was thinking with both cards though (Living Wish as well as Eladamri's Call) is that they both walk into Spell Snare all day long, and we're in a rather Spell Snare dominated meta-game as far as the blue decks are concerned - which is also where you are most likely to run into Cage. What about Worldly Tutor? This may solve a couple problems:

1. Obviously plays around Spell Snare
2. Far easier to cast than Eladamri's Call in a deck with only 1 Land that produces white (although maybe more if you're running Call - but that's really going to start putting a strain on the manabase and I personally like having access to 2 basic forests).

It also provides all of the benefits that Eladamri's Call does, albeit a turn slower. I was thinking about it in the Grafdigger's Cage case, and I'm not sure that we really care that much if we're a turn slower against those decks. They will generally be Blue Control decks without a fast clock, so being a turn slower while being able to cast it more reliably would probably be just fine. Maybe the question comes down to is the speed of Eladamri's Call (tutor to hand) worth the price of being more difficult to cast and more easily countered?

I do understand that you're going to need white either way to cast Pridemage, although maybe there is a different solution we can run instead of the second pridemage to make it a bit easier? Something like Viridian Shaman? Not as versatile as Pridemage due to only nuking artifacts, but gets us out of the jam with Cage a lot easier - and the second Pridemage is still available as well.

[Xantid Swarm]

One problem I was thinking with both cards though (Living Wish as well as Eladamri's Call) is that they both walk into Spell Snare all day long, and we're in a rather Spell Snare dominated meta-game as far as the blue decks are concerned - which is also where you are most likely to run into Cage. What about Worldly Tutor?

Worldly Tutor is card disadvantage. Your point about Spell Snare is legit but Living Wish / Eladamri's Call are still better than Worldly tutor because they don't cost a card. After testing Enlighten Tutor weeks ago, I can told you this is very revelent.
Against Spell Snare the key is to wait for opponent to tap all blue mana before playing our 2 mana spell. Being an instant, Eladamri's Call make it easier than L. Wish.


I do understand that you're going to need white either way to cast Pridemage, although maybe there is a different solution we can run instead of the second pridemage to make it a bit easier? Something like Viridian Shaman? Not as versatile as Pridemage due to only nuking artifacts, but gets us out of the jam with Cage a lot easier - and the second Pridemage is still available as well.

Running Viridian Shaman over a second Pridemage would be really stupid in a deck that already play G and W. But you are right about the fact that we probably need 2 Savannah if we run Eladamri's Call. I'm in fact thinking about cutting Brainstorm and the blue splash at this point.

[bruizar]

Eladamri's Call can't get lands but allow you to get Birds, Tinder Wall or Wall of Roots if needed (impossible to put those cards in side for Living Wish).

You can get Dryad Arbor if you want to play that. It will cost you a land drop though.

[.dk]

You can get Dryad Arbor if you want to play that. It will cost you a land drop though.

Yes, the difference is that Living Wish can get some different utility lands: fetches for color fixing, gaea's cradle for ramp, or phyrexian tower for a sac outlet.

@xantid Yeah, I understand about the CA argument of worldly tutor vs. eladamri's call, but are we really a deck that cares THAT much about card advantage? We just want to assemble our combo and move on. Same reason I end up mulliganing to 6 a lot with this deck - I'm ok giving up a card for a much better hand. That said, I think it just needs testing. Worldly Tutor isn't a direct comparison in this deck to Enlightened Tutor, but your results with E. Tutor are certainly telling. I'll make some lists for both flavors (including a Call list that doesn't run Blue) and get some testing done in the next week or so. Have a good solid gauntlet built up with some friends locally that we test with at least once a week.

And as far as Viridian Shaman goes... I never said it was a GOOD idea. Just an idea. ;)

[Xantid Swarm]

I'll make some lists for both flavors (including a Call list that doesn't run Blue) and get some testing done in the next week or so. Have a good solid gauntlet built up with some friends locally that we test with at least once a week.

Excellent. This is the right thing to do. Speculation worth nothing in comparison to true testing. Make sure that some of the decks you test against use Cages and please repport your results.

[Rafa]

I'll stick to the LW instead of stop playing Brainstorms.

[.dk]

Well, I haven't started testing against the gauntlet as of yet. Will hopefully get that started this afternoon or tomorrow. The decks I'll be testing against are Canadian Thresh, UW Stoneforge, Punishing Maverick, and TES. I think that will give a pretty broad spectrum of the field with various different tempo, control, and combo strategies. One thing I'm not sure of in general though, is where Cage actually fits in. I honestly can't think of a deck outside of UW Counterbalance or something that would actually want to run it. I'm thinking maybe Maverick, since they already sometimes run maindeck Teeg shutting of their GSZ, and I could see them running a tutor package in the sideboard. The lists I'm currently toying with for testing are:

Eladamri's Call:

1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
1 Starved Rusalka
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Fauna Shaman

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Eladamri's Call

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Xantid Swarm

Worldly Tutor:

1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Worldly Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Xantid Swarm


These may not be entirely ideal, but hoping will at least be representative how they could be. Let me know if you have any feedback on how one or the other could be improved.

On an unrelated note... I did end up taking the Living Wish version to our GPT yesterday for GP Indianapolis (don't currently own any Worldly Tutors or Eladamri's Calls). Was originally planning on running counterbalance or TES, but couldn't get everything together in time, so I went with the old standby. The list I ran was:


1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Living Wish
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant catacombs

SIDEBOARD
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Academy Rector


I ended up 2-2 overall, with one of the losses being very close. Quick report

Round 1: Not entirely sure what he was running - I think it was some UR Splinter Twin/Kiki-Jiki deck. I lost the die roll, so was on the draw. Game 1, kept a decent hand with Living Wish and Natural Order. He countered a Tinder Wall on T2. I ended up Wishing for Phyrexian Tower to kill Hulk after Natural order. Game 2, kept a fast hand with no sac outlets, so I went for Progenitus T2 and the game was over from there.

Round 2: Canadian Threshold. Lost the die roll again. Game 1, I made a sloppy play and got my first fetch stifled, and my Bayou wastelanded. I was never really in it from there. Game 2 he thought he had me when he dropped a crypt while I was at low life, but used rector to combo through crypt. Game 3 on the draw, I have a hand with 2 fetches, a probe, and therapy, so I think I'm in good shape. He drops a tropical island, and I probe to see a hand of 2 stifles, a lightning bolt, a wasteland, force of will, and a delver of secrets. I'm in trouble... I can't play around his stifles and don't draw any more land. Delver flips, and beats down for the win, while I essentially do nothing.

Round 3: Burn splashing white for Steppe Lynx. This doesn't seem like a great matchup, although I hadn't played it before this. I win the die roll finally and keep a great starting 7 that can combo off on T3. T1 I probe him, Therapy off a Steppe Lynx, and leave him with a rift bolt, fireblast, lava spike, and a couple lands. He suspends Rift Bolt and passes. I drop a fetch and pass. Rift bolt goes to my face, as does lava spike and lightning bolt. I fetched a Dryad Arbor at the end of his turn, and he makes a comment along the lines of, "I smell a Natural Order for Progenitus coming!" to which my response is, "close, but you could race that" and then he looks scared... I drop an Ancient Tomb and then combo out. Hulk caught him totally off guard! Game2, he's on the play, drops Steppe Lynx, and I respond with Tinder wall to hold the Steppe Lynx off. He bolts the Tinder Wall, drops a fetch and swings for 4. GSZ on my turn for another Tinder Wall (which was probably a mistake - I probably should have waited another turn to hopefully draw more mana for Wall of Roots) which he bolts again and keeps swinging with Lynx. I drop an Ancient Tomb, and am close to assembling the combo, and then he double price of progresses, and Lynx seals the deal. G3 I really don't remember all that much of, other than it was really fast, and I was a turn too slow. I was really missing the Slaughter Pacts from the old list in this matchup.

Round 4: UW Stoneforge. I was hoping to play more of this during the event as I feel the matchup is strongly favored for us. G1 he has me on my heels down to 7 life, and Cliques me, and sees I have a Living Wish, Rector, and a couple other things. I know he's had a Spell Snare almost the entire game from an early probe/therapy turn, so I haven't been able to cast Wish. Next turn I top deck Pattern of Rebirth which I cast on a dryad arbor. He drops Jace and unsummons it. Following turn I top deck Cabal Therapy - Perfect! I therapy him naming Spell snare, and see a Force of Will along with a bunch of other non blue cards. Free to Wish, I get Phyrexian Tower, drop the rector and combo out. G2 I start with a T1 Capet of Flowers after mulling to 6, and the game is pretty much over from there. He counters some of my stuff as we go, but eventually I get a therapy off to see his hand, and have enough mana from Carpet to GSZ for Protean Hulk and win.

Overall, while the list was functional with Living Wish, I felt it was too slow. Obviously it got me out of a couple jams, however I think that a different list would be more effective. Having 0 Slaughter Pacts to speed up I believe is what cost me the match against burn, and we can recapture those without a wish board. It warps the maindeck and board too much only to play around 1 card. And as it turns out, 0 people were packing any Grafdigger's Cages in the event. Neat.

I'll post when I get some data on the gauntlet running. I'll run something like 10 games against each deck (4 pre-board, 6 post board) with each version of the list and record the results and overall impressions. 10 games each isn't a ton, but I'm not sure I have the time to run more than that in the next couple of days.

[Xantid Swarm]

And as it turns out, 0 people were packing any Grafdigger's Cages in the event. Neat.

There was almost no Cage in sideboard of published lists from the last SCG Open. We'll soon see if there is this weekend.

I don't think Maverick will run Cage as there is good grave hate cards that do not intefere with GSZ.

The decks that could run Cage are, in my opinion, those who do not use graveyard or GSZ: Goblins, Dead and Taxes, ...but we'll see.

If Cage end up seing almost no play, I suppose we don't need to change the deck at all, or perhaps just to add 2-3 Beast Within in the side.

[Rafa]

Dudes, I played at a local event last saturday and decided to play Punishing Maverick instead of Hulk Rebirth.
I regret doing that because nobody was playing cages and I don't master the maverick deck yet!
I trully believe I could have done great with our normal brainstorm version! :frown:
Next time I'm gonna play our deck as it's supposed to be played.

[Xantid Swarm]

Dudes, I played at a local event last saturday and decided to play Punishing Maverick instead of Hulk Rebirth.
I regret doing that because nobody was playing cages and I don't master the maverick deck yet!

The same was true at SCG Cincinnati this weekend, at least this can be said for the top 16 - a big total of 1 Cage in one sideboard for 16 decks! Almost every decks choose other gravehate cards over Cage. Let take a look:

1 Dredge deck - 0 Cage (no surprise...) - 4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elves deck - 0 Cage (the deck run GSZ) - 4 Faerie Macabre
4 RUG Delver - 0 Cage (the deck run Snapcaster Mage) - a mix of Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction
6 UWx Stoneblade decks - 0 Cage (Snapcaster...) - mix of Leyline of the Void, T. Crypt, S. Extraction, and 1 Bojuka Bug for the UWg deck that run KotR
2 Show and Tell decks - 0 Cage - each run 4 Leyline of the Void
1 Burn deck - 0 Cage - 4 Relic of Progenitus
1 MUC running 4 Thinket Mage - 1 Cage in the SB, in adition to 1 T. Crypt.

So, this is great news for us. I think we lost our time thinking how to beat that card when in reality it saw almost no play at all (for now, at least).


I trully believe I could have done great with our normal brainstorm version! :frown:
Next time I'm gonna play our deck as it's supposed to be played.

100% agreed. No need to lessen the deck in fear of a non existant card. The only thing I may do is add 1 Fauna Shaman main and 2 Beast Within SB and that's it. I'll definitly continue to play 4 GSZ + 4 Brainstorm.

Edit - By the way, the Drew Levin's article talking about this deck is now avaiable for those who dont have SCG Premium: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23401_The_Ten_Coolest_Decks_In_Legacys_History.html

[.dk]

Yes, it seems encouraging that not many people are running it thus far. Although since Dredge did win yesterday, seems like theres a decent shot at many people packing it as the hot "new" tech against dredge at scg next week. Maybe we'll get lucky and dredge will crush through cage and prove that other hate is better (i.e. Leyline)? Honestly Cage might even be too slow for Faithless Looting/LED Dredge... which actually frightens me a bit with our matchup against them. Seems like we got a little worse against dredge after Faithless Looting - they are back to being a faster combo deck now which gives us less time to sac creatures. Maybe it's not a big deal though?

When I get some time, I'll still try to get some data on the Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor lists in case Cage becomes wildly popular.

[Xantid Swarm]

If people want to beat Dredge, they will use a playset of Leyline of the Void because, as you said, Cage is too slow on the draw against Faithless Loothing + LED. It's very good news for us because we can beat Leyline of the Void with GSZ for Pridemage and NO for Progenitus.

If Dredge became a problem for us, we can ourself run Leyline of the Void (it's a good card against Reanimator too).

At LGS, I still plan to alternate decks between Hulk Rebirth and others because local players could run Cage just for me. But in any other big tournament, Hulk Rebirth will probably remain my first choice for now.

[Irenicus]

Hey guys,

just wanted to let you know that I played ZeRo today in a pretty small event. It was quite unexciting because I played vs 2x Affinity, Burn and Belcher. Lost to Belcher and won against everyone else. But the matches were kind of close and in the end I got 2nd out of about 16 people. During the matches only one of my opponents brought in Cages. The list that I played was a little bit different though:

Maindeck:

1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
8 Fetchies

1 Noble Hierarch
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Academy Rector
1 Viscera Seer
1 Body Double
1 Reveillark
1 Progenitus
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Xantid Swarm

2 Duress
2 Protean Hulk
2 Wall of Roots

3 Brainstorm
3 Pattern of Rebirth

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Birds of Paradise

Sideboard:

1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Silvan Library
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 City of Solitude
2 Duress
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Carpet of Flowers

Overall I was quite happy with the deck. If you have any questions regarding specific cardchoices, feel free to ask!

[Xantid Swarm]

Cage do not see enough play to be a real problem. I'm back playing this deck since end of february and I didn't face a Cage in 17 matches. By the way I'm 13-4 in those 17 matches so I plan to stick to this deck again for now.

On march 3rd I go to a 2K Legacy tournament in Quebec City with a friend of mine. Both of us was playing Hulk Rebirth (me with Brainstorm and him without). We both top 8 this 85 players tournament. I lost in quarterfinal but my friend won the whole thing. So this deck is certanly not death.

Top 8 of the tournament (http://coverage.manadeprived.com/?p=1473)
Coverage of the Top 8 (http://coverage.manadeprived.com/?page_id=1384)

[El_Ray]

Let me just start by introducing myself, my name is Ray, and I've been a lurker around here for a while. I played ZeRo at the Sacramento Star City Games event, choosing the deck over Reanimator after watching the sheer power this thing has. Granted though, this switch gave me roughly 2 weeks to learn the deck, and I hold my own play mistakes and inexperience to a 39th place showing, going 4-3. I thought I would share my own little tournament report and notes I took during the tournament. First off, the list I ran. It's a pretty standard list, with a few modifications to it for my own play style/ consistency help that I ran into during testing.

LANDS
2 dryad Arbor
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 savannah
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest

SPELLS
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Pattern of Rebirth
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Viscera Seer
2 Protean Hulk
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Academy Rector
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Body Double
1 Progenitus

Sideboard
1 Sacvenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Thoughtseize

As you can see, I was loaded up on the artifact hate for the pure reason that I knew at least 5 people in the group I was going with was packing Grafdiggers Cage. Also, the addition of the Karmic Guide to the main was added for the times where Body Double was already in the Graveyard, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to combo at that point. Fortunately, that problem really never arose in the tournament play, but it was nice to have. Also, the mainboard Pridemage was added because my best friend runs Enchantress, and I needed some way to destroy various enchantments that stop me dead in my tracks.

At the tournament, I ran into a wide variety of decks, and my first opponent was playing Deadguy, much to the joy of my friends, since that's one of the decks I've played non-stop for around 6 months, and is still a favorite deck of mine.
Game one was a blowout for him, with a double hymn hand that hit exactly what he needed to hit, leaving me with nothing and dying quickly to Dark Confidant and Batterskull. Game 2 was much better for me, with a turn 3 Hulk combo that I had to explain to both him and the judge overseeing. Our game 3 was quick as well, where I went for the turn 2 Progenitus, and forced him to have the edict effect. He flipped Diabolic to Bob, but couldn't find a black mana source to be able to cast the edict.
Game 1: 2-1

My second round was against a very odd u/w stoneblade deck with trickbinds in the list. Our game 1 was quick, with a turn 3 Progenitus that he could not answer. Game 2 he showed Wrath of God against my field of Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise, and Dryad Arbor, stopping a Turn 4 combo, and I never saw another creature in time to stop his attack afterwards. Game 3 I played way too conservative, afraid to turn 3 Progenitus him after seeing Wrath. That cost me dearly, as when I finally went for the combo, he had Force of Will to stop me, and Trickbind to stop a Pattern of Rebirth. I quickly fell after that.
Game 2: 1-2

Round three led me to my friend who came down with us playing Maverick. This was the match up I was waiting for, and he was dreading. Game 1 was a quick turn 2 Progenitus, leading to a fast scoop. Game 2 I was able to therapy 2 Nobles out of his hand, leaving him mana screwed, and leading to a turn 3 Hulk combo. I felt bad beating my friend in a "must win" scenario, but he still had fun playing his first legacy open.
Game 3: 2-0

In round four I found myself against Affinity, and in a fun little side note, the same affinity I played against at the Worlds legacy event, so I knew I had to be fast to beat him. Game one I did just that, going for the turn 2 Progenitus, which he scooped to. Game 2, he answered right back, with a turn 1 artifact land, Mox Opal, 2 Ornithopters, Springleaf Drum, Cranial Plating. Needless to say, I was quite dead, keeping a slow hand with double Krosan Grip. Game 3 lead to an evaluation state: I had turn 2 Progenitus, but he dropped another insane affinity hand. I had the Krosan Grip for the Plating, so rather than go for the Prog, I let him attack into the Grip, and Hulk combo him after that turn.
Game 4: 2-1

Round Five put me into the win and in slot for top 8, and I faced down Aggro Loam. he pegged the deck as just natural order, so he slaughtered every creature I played, and hit Seismic Assault/Life From the Loam both games, just crushing me. After a quick trouncing, I showed him a Hulk, and he instantly knew the deck, and wished I had been able to fight through him to give him a real match, cause hes wanted to see the deck in action.
Game 5: 0-2

I kept on playing, figuring winning out would put me in top 32, and top 16 if my breakers stayed strong. Unfortunately, my round 6 opponent decided that mainboard Engineered Explosives, Green Sun's Zeniths, his own natural order package, and Gaddock Teeg fit together in NO Bant. He EE'ed for 1 game one against a field of 1 Bird and 1 Tinder Wall, which really tilted me, seeing that he had no clue what I was playing, and it killed his only white source doing that as well. Still, Knight got there when he drew into a Savannah. Game 2 was a turn 2 Progenitus that he scooped to, saying he had no answers to that. Game 3 was a perfectly timed Gaddock Teeg to turn off my hand full of turn 3 comboing, and I didn't board into Slaughter Pact, since I figured it would turn off his deck too much. He dropped a Knight, and my lonely Dryad Arbor shed a tear while blocking.
Game 6: 1-2

Seeing as it was now the last round of Swiss, I felt the need to finish my day out, and hope to end on a winning record. Round seven paired me against Combo Elves, which, in my own surprise, I was able to out combo. Both games where turn 3 Hulk combo, leading to a fast win, and setting my day in to a 4-3 record, and a 39th place finish.

Overall I had a blast with this deck. I fell in love with it over the day, and not once did it ever disappoint me. I feel with a bit more practice I could easily see top 8 at my next event. Any and all feedback is welcome and encouraged here from the more experienced players, so I can get better at this deck.

[death]

Starved Rusalka would fit better in the Karmic Guide slot, it's a NO fodder/sac outlet. With Body Double in the yard, fetch Rector + Feeder + Fanatic + Dryads Arbor. Sac Rector for Pattern of Rebirth on a Dryad, sac the Dryad and fetch Reveillark. Sac Fanatic and Lark, bring Fanatic and Body Double back (as Lark copy) and combo from there.

[El_Ray]

That is a route I never saw before. Thank you a ton for that, I'm gonna play around with guides slot now.

[Jwilliams]

I recently just built the deck...Its pretty consistent but I was wondering is there anyway to actually speed the combo up, I dont know if it would kill the deck to add maybe llanor or noble may be 2 of, or what about using Goblin bombardment as a key for the combo and being able to combo off with any creature even a arbor? I also just built it specifically how its was listed in xantid swarm's updated list - just so i could get a feel to the deck before I try and alter it

[.dk]

I recently just built the deck...Its pretty consistent but I was wondering is there anyway to actually speed the combo up, I dont know if it would kill the deck to add maybe llanor or noble may be 2 of, or what about using Goblin bombardment as a key for the combo and being able to combo off with any creature even a arbor? I also just built it specifically how its was listed in xantid swarm's updated list - just so i could get a feel to the deck before I try and alter it

Sometimes when I'm looking to speed up (such as against TES or the like), I'll board in Slaughter Pacts which allows you to go off T2, rather than T3. You can NO for Hulk T2, and then kill it with Slaughter Pact, rather than having to have some sac outlet (therapy or feeder/seer).

Also, I've been playing this deck a lot lately, and took it to GP Indy as well - I've been really slacking on getting my reports written up. Overall though, I've been very happy with the stock Brainstorm list (although I run 2 basic forests in a 61 card list), with a few shifts in the sideboard. My board is currently:

4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Fauna Shaman
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thoughtseize

However, there are a few problems I've been running into (at least in my metagame and a little bit at Indy), that are making me want to shift to another deck for at least a while.

1. RUG Delver - I just can't seem to pull out a positive win percentage in this matchup. Their suite of counterspells, stifles, and pressure with evasion just outraces me. I'm not really sure what to do about this matchup (I'm sure I could shift the sideboard a bit) - but it seems like the deck is getting more and more popular which in my opinion is a problem.

2. Dredge - prior to the printing of Faithless Looting, I thought we had a very good matchup here. In fact, I even enjoyed playing against dredge with this deck and felt we had a positive matchup against it. However... now that "combo" dredge is resurfacing with Looting, LED, and Breakthroughs again, I don't feel that way anymore. Dredge can T1 you with a little luck, and T2 pretty consistently. The Flayer of the Hatebound into Grave Troll plan is just brutally fast - which means that we would need leylines to combat it without sacrificing too much.

My first inclination would be to swap Probes for Thoughtseize in the main, and change the board to something like this:

4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Beast Within
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Scavenging Ooze

Any thoughts on this or the RUG Matchup?

[Jwilliams]

Now do you run blue just for brainstorm? Is your deck list posted earlier? - what about running red? for added removal? has anyone looked into that?

[dameus]

The deck plays enough colors as is. Brainstorm - one of the best cards in legacy - was at least a controversial add because of the extra color splash. There's simply no room for Red. If there was room for extra removal in this already tight deck, it could just as easily come from Echoing Truth instead of Red (not as permanent but very flexible and just as effective in many situations).

[JBlaze]

r/u/g delver is tough. With them playing forked bolt to fight maverick and esperblade it does not get any easier. Someone suggested choke to me but I have not tried it out. It would mess up our tropical islands but maybe it would hurt them worse.
I think the biggest problem is one that is built into the deck. All of the opponents creature removal is live against us. Most the other combo decks (besides elves) get to blank creature removal in game 1. Against us its another piece of disruption.

What are this decks good match ups? I can't think of any. I hate to say it because I really like the deck but it is time to change. This deck is in a bad spot in the meta right now. Let me add to the bad match up list; U/r delver is not much fun or pox or storm or reanimator. I have not played any of the B/U/g control decks but they look nasty. Maverick and U/W/x blade are beatable I guess but it's not like they just roll over. An active jitte hurts.

[.dk]

r/u/g delver is tough. With them playing forked bolt to fight maverick and esperblade it does not get any easier. Someone suggested choke to me but I have not tried it out. It would mess up our tropical islands but maybe it would hurt them worse.
I think the biggest problem is one that is built into the deck. All of the opponents creature removal is live against us. Most the other combo decks (besides elves) get to blank creature removal in game 1. Against us its another piece of disruption.

What are this decks good match ups? I can't think of any. I hate to say it because I really like the deck but it is time to change. This deck is in a bad spot in the meta right now. Let me add to the bad match up list; U/r delver is not much fun or pox or storm or reanimator. I have not played any of the B/U/g control decks but they look nasty. Maverick and U/W/x blade are beatable I guess but it's not like they just roll over. An active jitte hurts.

I still find the Maverick and Stoneforge matchups to be very favorable. However, at least based on the meta where we are, I'm not sure that's enough to justify it (since no one runs Stoneforge around here).

I think if I were to run choke, I'd go back to the brainstorm-less build at first thought. Also, I would agree with echoing truth over red removal. Red removal's advantage is usually it's versatility to turn into reach late game, which we don't really need as an infinite combo engine. Echoing truth can buy you a turn, which in many cases would be enough.


also, for reference, my decklist:

MAIN DECK

1 Academy Rector
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Body Double
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Progenitus
2 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark
2 Tinder Wall
1 Viscera Seer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Wild Cantor
1 Xantid Swarm

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Pattern of Rebirth

3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs


SIDEBOARD

2 Beast Within
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Slaughter Pact
3 Thoughtseize

[Xantid Swarm]

@ JBlaze:
In a meta full of RUG Delver, I would certanly not recommand this deck. But my local meta is actually dominated by Maverick and Stoneblade (and it's probably not the only place as we can see here (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2012-3)). Both are good matchups so I feel comfortable with Hulk Rebirth in this environment.

In fact, looking at the top ten list of The Concil for march 2012, there is 6 matchups that I count as good (Maverick, Blade Control, Dredge, Sneak Attack, Nic Fit, Burn), 3 bad matchups (Threshold UGr, Ad Nauseam Storm, Reanimator) and one probably even (Elves). I think it's not bad at all.

[.dk]

@ Xantid Swarm: Have you tested against the newer faithless looting + flayer of the hatebound lists for Dredge? I personally can't see how that is favorable for us at all. Older builds (specifically non-LED Dredge), I feel we are very favored against. LED dredge is a different story, in my opinion.

[dameus]

So what's the conclusions so far? Cage not so bad, but UR Delver and Canadian Thesh not a good meta for this deck?

[.dk]

So what's the conclusions so far? Cage not so bad, but UR Delver and Canadian Thesh not a good meta for this deck?

that's certainly been my conclusion anyway. Looking at the council decks for may so far, Thresh seem to only be getting more popular, leading me to believe that at a large event, this is probably not the deck to bring. I've been trying to think of ways to make this a better match up, but I'm just not seeing it. I can see a good case for cutting blue right now to run more basics maindeck, but that doesn't do much about the burn, countermagic, and stifles. If only there were some way we could run Chalice of the Void in this deck without turning everything else off...

/edit: and while I think my previous statement regarding LED Dredge is still valid, that's at least fixable with some Leylines out of the board. The best you're going to do for Thresh is Carpet of Flowers, which while very good, just isn't going to get there.

[.dk]

Seems like with all of the Show and Tell base decks right now (Dream Halls, Hive Mind, Sneak/Show) that we may want to consider adding Fauna Shaman main again. I was trying to figure out where to add it back in, and the best I can come up with is cutting a Probe, which I personally don't like very much as I'm already at 3 (I run 21 lands - 2 basic forests) in my list. Any ideas? Maybe going back to brainstorm-less is the only real way to do it?

[dameus]

20 lands is enough for me. I think that's your best bet.

BTW, when is Green gonna get some love from WotC? I think the last green card to get any buzz at all was Lotus Cobra and that didn't exactly make it to Legacy staple status :smile:

[mrjumbo03]

20 lands is enough for me. I think that's your best bet.

BTW, when is Green gonna get some love from WotC? I think the last green card to get any buzz at all was Lotus Cobra and that didn't exactly make it to Legacy staple status :smile:

Green Sun's Zenith is the gift Green got from WotC.

[1337erhosen]

Just picked up this deck because I owned most of the cards. What do your sideboards look like for the current meta? Also, what does Slaughter Pact do out of the board?

[.dk]

If I were to play this deck right now (but I can't see how that's a good idea in the current meta), my sideboard would look something like this while running a Fauna Shaman main:

4 Carpet of Flowers
3 City of Solitude
2 Beast Within
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Slaughter Pact

Slaughter Pacts do 2 things for you in particular:

1. Kill Gaddock Teeg! Teeg is a real problem for this deck (shuts off GSZ, Natural Order, and Pattern of Rebirth). Without Slaughter Pact (or Beast Within), the only way to win through Teeg is to use Academy Rector.

2. Speed up your combo - I will side in Slaughter Pacts against faster combo decks to speed up the kill. With Slaughter Pact, you can T2 Natural Order for Protean Hulk, and then instantly kill it with Slaughter Pact for the win. Fastest without Slaughter Pact is T3.

However, that all being said, I can't see how this is a good deck to play with all of the RUG decks running rampant (especially those with Stifle).

[1337erhosen]

Thanks .dk!

Sorry to make you repeat yourself, I should've looked further back in the thread. Have you tested the Sneak and Show matchup? I'd be more concerned about that right now than RUG.

Griselbrand seems like the card to beat right now. Could we run a Scavenging Ooze in the board for Reanimator? Phyrexian Revoker? just tossing some ideas around.

Also, has further testing been done with Eladmiri's Call? That's the version I built, and has treated me well in the last 2 weeks.

[.dk]

I think you should be more worried about RUG than you are - it is still a significant part of the metagame (at least at a large event - if it's absent in your local meta, then by all means!)

But that aside... it actually depends on the Sneak/Show build, in my opinion. Game 1 is pretty good, in my opinion. Git Probe + Therapy rips their hand apart enough (since you know exactly what to take) to slow them down for you to win on T3 or 4, mostly unmolested. Or worst case, GSZ for Xantid Swarm and go from there. You can also win off of their show and tell, which is always a great feeling.

G2 and 3 however depends on their sideboard. Some lists run 4 Leylines as grave hate - those are easy to beat. However, I've seen a lot packing 4 Grafdigger's Cage. That card is an absolute nightmare (and one of the reasons why I'm running Fauna Shaman maindeck again). I never had much success running Eladamri's Call - I personally wasn't a huge fan of the white requirements. Because there is so many burn spells around right now, that makes you more dependent on your Birds of Paradise to make white, or else you're stuck with dead cards. I tried running Living Wish for a while, to moderate success, although I thought it was overall too slow. Worldly Tutor is a good possibility, however is card disadvantage as Felix mentioned a few pages back.

[Voulain]

Recently decided to put this deck together and in my opinion it plays quite well. There are some awkward hands and dead draws once in a while, but it mulligans really well, so it's not a major concern to be honest.

I 3-1 the first daily i played with it, using this list:

4X Verdant Catacombs
1X Misty Rainforest
2X Wooded Foothills
3X Ancient Tomb
3X Bayou
1X Temple Garden
2X Dryad Arbor
1X Gaea's Cradle
1X Phyrexian Tower
1X Forest

4X Birds of Paradise
1X Wild Cantor
2X Tinder Wall
1X Wall of Roots
1X Academy Rector
1X Progenitus
2X Protean Hulk
1X Body Double
1X Body Snatcher
1X Carrion Feeder
1X Reveillark
1X Mogg Fanatic
1X Viscera Seer
1X Starved Rusalka
1X Fauna Shaman
1X Xantid Swarm

4X Green Sun's Zenith
3X Pattern of Rebirth
4X Natural Order
4X Cabal Therapy
3X Gitaxian Probe

SB
3x Beast Within
1x Choke
1x Engineered Plague
2x Krosan Grip
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Slaughter Pact
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Damnation
2x Surgical Extraction

The 1-of Choke and Engineered Plague have been good as hate that can be tutored up with academy rector, although i had initially thought the interaction too slow for the decks it was good against, but it won the game by itself pretty much on several occasions.

Lost to Caleb Durward piloting a burn deck, which seems like a fairly bad match-up without Leylines in the side seeing as they can pretty much deprive you of all your gas while still beating down pretty hard. So sideboard should probably have -2 surgical extraction -1 damnation and +3 Leyline of Sanctity. Should also have prioritized ancient tomb/cabal therapy in opening over mana dudes as they are basically useless.
2-1 vs Miracle control
2-1 vs Painter's servant
2-0 vs Elf combo

The Painter's Servant match-up pretty much requires cabal in opening hand, as a t1 blood moon is devastasting and they seem to combo out a bit more consistently in the first few turns of the game, krosan grips and beast within are huge postboard.
The deck is very resilient to disruption and removal though, so the miracle control match up seems quite favorable.
Elf combo is also favorable in my opinion as they are generally a turn or two slower than you.

[Kap'n Cook]

Hey Voulain,

I was the painter player in your daily and I agree that Blood Moon is a beating. the last game i was 1 mana short of winning for a while, but nice job on the therapy naming. I actually played this deck for about a month on cockatrice. I know that the high number of fetches are to reliably get dryad arbor, but have you thought about cutting anything to squeeze in the last g. probe for therapy or more basics to ensure against wasteland/moon? I don't know the fine details of the deck, I was just curious. You shouldn't really worry about red-painter though since it is about as rare as Hulk combo anymore

[Voulain]

Hi :) Yeah i have actually thought about adding 1-2 more basics to the mana base as protection against blood moon/wasteland, but also to not lose too much value against decks running stuff like veteran explorer or path to exile.
Think it'll be hard to cut something for another probe, but maybe the body snatcher is too situational to run, guess i'll try testing it cus i do like me some t1 probe+cabal :)
The game where you were 1 mana from grindstone activation for a couple of rounds was had me sweating quite a bit :) But i guess that it's a match up that can swing one way as easily as the other.

[JBlaze]

Abrupt decay seems like the perfect card for this deck. I want to start testing with three in the board. It answers so many problems, Do you guys think it might actually make this a deck again?

[.dk]

It certainly helps, that's for sure. It's a strict upgrade to beast within or whatever else people were using to combat grafdigger's cage. It needs to be at least a 3 of in the sideboard in my opinion, likely cutting a slaughter pact since decay can deal with Teeg as well. I also think it solidifies the Brainstorm version of this deck as the superior build, as you'll need to make use of those along with fetches to find Decay consistently when you need it. I'm also of the opinion that we need to be running Fauna Shaman somewhere in the 75 as well to be able to search up the Pridemage if needed.

Whether or not Decay "fixes" the deck, I'm not sure. But it's certainly a huge improvement, as you say. Although I still think it has a pretty awful Canadian Thresh matchup...

[JBlaze]

Your right about the Canadian Thresh matchup still being rough. Abrupt Decay might not bring this deck back by itself but we got another card... Deathrite Shaman seems amazing for this deck, one as a zenith target is almost a given. Three or four might be right. I can see a number of scenarios where Shaman is just straight up better than Birds. Having your mana producer be able to manage the yard and gain life sounds down right relevant, heck it even holds off 1/1 Mongoose and Delver.

[.dk]

yeah, it certainly warrants testing... not sure that it is better than birds in all cases, as it won't always be able to ramp you. if only it was a sac outlet as well.

[RPrajzner]

I also decided to build this because I owned most of the cards- and I was quite disappointed.I was able to go 3-1 but that's mostly because I played some bad players and against Dredge once (which seems like it'd be this deck's only good matchup.

I guess my main question is "What's the point of playing this deck?" It's not that fast, not that reactive, and not that resilient. It seems like the only benefit to the deck is that your opponents wont know what's happening but that's not something I'd really look for in a deck that you'd want to bring to a SCG Open or GP or other tournament where you'd eventually have to play against competent players playing more reactive decks (Stoneblade etc).

Also, as far as the gameplay goes, there was a time where I could've won if I could fetch a Trop by getting it, Caballing myself, then Body Doubling my freshly discarded Hulk. Also, getting Progenitus in the face of graveyard hate is sweet.

[Blastoderm]

Having Xantid swarm makes it pretty resillient. I think I would add City of Solitude in the sb as well as more xantid swarm. This I think is the main advantage of the deck. As well as Progenitus as a backup plan of course.

One hilarious SB tech I've been trying is that knowing that your opponent will bring in grave hate you bring in Nomads en-kor, disciple of griselbrand, daru spiritualist.

You basically hulk for these 3 + wild cantor for the disciple activation. You get infinite life with your opponent not being able to stop it with removal, plus it doesn't use the graveyard. Only downside is that it takes up 3 sb spots. While it doesn't kill your opponent you can finish them with progenitus.

[RPrajzner]

I think if they're got graveyard hate you just get Progenitus from the get go.

[Cybey]

Wouldn't Dosan the Falling Leaf be better than City of Solitude since you can use GSZ to find it?

[Blastoderm]

Wouldn't Dosan the Falling Leaf be better than City of Solitude since you can use GSZ to find it?

You don't need that with Xantid Swarm :) Id rather have krosan grips in the SB.

[.dk]

City has some corner case uses over Dosan, in that opponents can't activate abilities during your turn, in addition to casting spells. Swarm takes care of the spells pretty effectively, but City takes care of problematic permanents like Crypt, Relic, Pridemage (if you have a Pattern on board), Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze. Sometimes (too often, it seems), Progenitus isn't fast enough to race, so you actually need to deal with their hate and disruption.

Again, probably a corner case use - but regardless I would certainly run more Xantid Swarm before Dosan the Falling Leaf.

[Cybey]

I might pilot this deck on a small tournament soon. Would you replace 2 Birds of Paradise with 2 Deathrite Shaman?

[.dk]

I tried playing a few games like that earlier this year - I honestly don't think they're needed. At most it is a 1 off, IMO.

However, maindeck deathrite in other decks makes this deck a bit of a challenge. They can eat your therapies, at your rector before you can RFG it from your graveyard, and eat reveillark mid combo. Things keep getting worse for this deck...

[Gedaco]

Props to Sazeo Salvio who continues to take the deck to recent tables.
His most recent list:


Lands: [17]
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Taiga
1x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest

Creatures: [18]
1x Academy Rector
1x Carrion Feeder
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Progenitus
1x Reveillark
1x Starved Rusalka
1x Viscera Seer
2x Body Double
2x Protean Hulk
2x Wall of Blossoms
4x Coiling Oracle

Other Spells: [25]
1x Repeal
2x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Gitaxian Probe
3x Natural Order
3x Pattern of Rebirth

Sideboard:
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Thoughtseize