[EDH] Arcum Dagsson - Prison Tinkerer [Archive]

GGoober

07-23-2011, 01:07 PM

So Arcum was my second EDH general (first general was Rhys the Redeemed). A few years ago, I worked on a pretty competitive and cutthroat list that did well for me. Ever since Tolarian Academy and Staff of Domination were banned, I took the deck apart and stopped playing EDH for a good number of years. Recently, my Legacy playgroup has expressed EDH interest, and I decided to sleeve back Dagsson. With a few years of experience playing Legacy and Eternal format, I would say that the list was much more streamlined than before.

This list is well capable for multiplayer games as well, but I would not advise bringing it to a casual group.

[1 GENERAL]
1 Arcum Dagsson

[35 LAND]
12 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Petrified Fields
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Rishadan Port
1 Dustbowl
1 Crystal Vein
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolaria West

[15 NON-ARTIFACT]
1 Pact of Negation
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mana Drain
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fabricate
1 Intuition
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mind over Matter
1 Time Spiral
1 Future Sight
1 Magus of the Future
1 Power Artifact

[24 ACCELERANT]
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Guardian Idol
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Plague Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Alloy Myr
1 Palladium Myr
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dyanmo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Voltaic Key
1 Filigree Sages
1 Clock of Omens
1 Cloud Key

[8 PRISON/OTHERS]
1 Spellskite
1 Possessed Portal
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Phyrexian Revoker

[11 CARD ADVANTAGE]
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Myr Retriever
1 Junk Diver
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Memory Jar
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Planar Portal
1 Master Transmuter
1 Myr Turbine
1 Rings of Brighthearth

[6 REMOVAL]
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinryal's Disk
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Here's the decklist/deck-analysis on my google spreadsheet:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AllC2sQZZEPodElQQlZabzcyYk1ISGRwUUw1Tml3ZGc&hl=en_US#gid=6

The way that I play Arcum is:

Play all the best accelerants the format has to offer
Play all the creature accelerants that ACCELERATE Arcum i.e. 2cmc Myrs
Have a focused combo plan (essentially, it's really Rings+Basalt+SDT, Possessed Portal)
Card-efficient combo (i.e. you want combos that have components that are not worthless on their own)
Every other card in the deck has to pull its weight and be amazing when drawn.

ACCELERANTS

Without a doubt, every competitive cutthroat EDH deck should play:
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mind Stone
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dyanmo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Voltaic Key

I don't support Chrome Mox due to my tremendously low blue count. The other Arcum-related accelerants are:
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Guardian Idol
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Plague Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Alloy Myr
1 Palladium Myr
1 Filigree Sages
1 Clock of Omens
1 Cloud Key

MYRS
The 2cmc Myrs are mandatory in Arcum. They accelerate him out a turn faster and feed him for tutoring. The 3cmc Myrs are less impressive but could create the mana required for situations where you do not draw your 4th landdrop otherwise i.e. it's to decrease variance of not being able to cast Arcum. Alloy Myr is the weakest slot but can't be replaced unless they are printing more artifact creature accelerants.

FILIGREE SAGES
Filigree Sages is there because it is completely busted with a Power Artifact (untapping Gilded Lotus) or when you have infinite mana out with Mycosynth Lattice, you can start untapping Planar Portal or Arcum and play out your whole deck).

CLOCK OF OMENS
This card is really busted, despite looking like a bad Voltaic Key initially. I would prefer an 'untap all artifacts' effect but it doesn't seem that such alternatives exist that allow you to untap artifacts at instant speed. With a Mycosynthe Lattice in play, this card because hilarious (you can tap your lands to untap Arcum and other things etc).

NON-ARTIFACT

1 Pact of Negation
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mana Drain
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fabricate
1 Intuition
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mind over Matter
1 Time Spiral
1 Future Sight
1 Magus of the Future
1 Power Artifact

PERMISSION
Permission package includes the mandatory: Pact of Negation, Mana Drain, FoW, Misdirection. Hinder was initially in the list but was much inferior to Muddle the Mixture since you are really not interested in a 3cmc counterspell v.s. a 2cmc version that could tutor for combo pieces such as Grim Monolith, Power Artifact or Mana Drain

TUTORS
The other cards need no explanation. MTutor, Intuition, Fabricate are powerful tutors, Tezzeret allows you to win games without ever having to activate Arcum (go grab Rings of Brighthearth first, and setup for Rings+Basalt+SDT win). Mind Over Matter is completely stupid in the format. Time Spiral, Future Sight/Magus of the Future gives huge card advantage.

FUTURE SIGHT
I play 2x Future Sight effects because resolving one already guarantees huge card advantage above your opponents, and supports the Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key + SDT combo. (Remember that you want to play combo shells that don't have worthless combo components. This is the reason why I don't play Mind Over Matter + Temple Bell[cards] + Eldrazi combo because the Temple Bell/Eldrazi is really terrible on their own).

I used to run [cards]Mind's Eye but has since taken it out because I am never tinkering for Mind's Eye with Arcum and if I needed cards from Arcum, Memory Jar is the prime target with Arcum. Therefore drawing Mind's Eye because much inferior to drawing Magus of the Future (Magus replaced Mind's Eye).

PRISON
1 Static Orb
1 Mindslaver
1 Possessed Portal
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Darksteel Forge

POSSESSED PORTAL
I used to play Winter Orb, in fact, I was the first person on MTGS that suggested that the crucial piece for a successful Arcum list was really revolving around Winter Orb. Things have changed since then because the old strategy of going Winter Orb+Tangle Wire into Candelabra of Tawnos and Tolarian Academy was just way too slow. Winter Orb also did not get around competitive decks that played out its artifact mana fast. In replacement, Static Orb proved to be much devastating, but is still the weakest slot that could be cut from the list.

The true prison replacement in this list that allowed me to cut down on 2 card slots in my older lists (Tangle Wire, Smokestack) was Possessed Portal. Getting a turn 3 Possessed Portal is backbreaking. Portal ensures that the game state never advances and only retards for both players. However, since you have a tutoring general in play that usually comes out faster than opposing generals (due to the monoU and heavy artifact/accelerant-theme to Arcum), you can lock people out much faster without the need to go through multiple turns under a Winter Orb to find your combo pieces while maintaining the lock.

Possessed Portal is perhaps one of the three targets that you always tinker first. If it sticks, Tinkering up a Spine of Ish Sha when you have 7 mana available allows you to sac Spine, play spine and put them back to ground zero. Otherwise tutoring Crucible of Worlds or Myr Turbine also creates the lock.

MYCOSYNTHE LATTICE
Mycosynthe Lattice is another busted card that you tutor up as a finishing combo. I seldom find myself going the Mycosynthe Lattice + Darksteel Forge + Nevinrryal's Disk combo these days. It is great to have a backup assymetrical boardwipe/wincon and it is the only reason why the combo is still there (Disk/Forge themselves are not bad cards in this deck). Lattice is really used to power out combo win conditions such as:

- Lattice + Clock of Omens + Arcum etc
- Lattice + infinite colorless mana allows you to cast everything in your deck (even Mind Over Matter. The mana-fixing of Lattice is huge to powering out the heavy-U combos).
- Lattice + Karn

Arcum is really nothing without Lattice in the list. Lattice fulfills all the combo/accelerant/prison that the deck ever needs.

CARD ADVANTAGE
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Myr Retriever
1 Junk Diver
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Memory Jar
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Planar Portal
1 Master Transmuter
1 Myr Turbine
1 Rings of Brighthearth

EXPEDITION MAP
Primarily fetches Mishra's Workshop or Strip Mine (with Crucible lock). With M12, fetching Buried Ruins makes the Map incredibly powerful. Buried Ruins is ages better than Academy Ruins in this deck.

TOP
Great by itself, but a combo piece for Future Sight/Magus of the Future + Top or Rings of Brighthearth+Basalt Monolith+Top (this combo is tutorable by Arcum/Tezzeret). Sometimes I wonder why Top isn't banned in this format.

MYR RETRIEVER/JUNK DIVER
I used to run crap like Copper Gnomes but these little dudes are incredibly powerful in the deck. They can sustain a few critters for Arcum to sac, or recur Jars and more powerful artifacts

MEMORY JAR
Why is this unbanned in EDH? Used primarily when you have tons of artifact mana out to play out your hands (not too hard for this deck), or used in conjunction with Mind Over Matter to untap lots of Gilded Lotus

PLANAR PORTAL
Tutored out in the late-game to assemble combos involving cards that are otherwise untutorable such as Mind Over Matter and Future Sight. With Infinite colorless mana out and an untapper e.g. Clock of Omens, you can win games from there.

MYR TURBINE
This card is one of the top 5 most frequently tutored pieces. It allows you to tinker every turn. It replaced the old Nuisance Engine since it does not need mana investment to make a token. Also, it allows my deck to be even more Myr-themed so my Myr tokens and Myr Life counters look more awesome.

RINGS OF BRIGHTHEARTH
The most busted card in the format. In any deck, this card should always be played. It's both fun, and tremendously broken with ANYTHING (Planeswalkers/Stripmines/Planar Portal/Arcum/Clock of Omens etc)

GGoober

07-23-2011, 01:08 PM

COMBO PATHS: THE ROAD TO VICTORY

Here's a list of the most commonly tutored combo with Arcum (with explanations), followed by a section of mini combos:

COMBO 1: Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith + Sensei's Divining Top

WHY AND WHEN TO USE THIS COMBO:
This combo wins the fastest and is the safest way to win (draw your deck, play your deck out with infinite colorless mana). It requires 2 artifact creature fodder, Arcum to survive for 2 turns. If any of this condition fails, the combo will not be completed. You usually tutor for Rings instead of Top/Basalt because Rings by itself is busted with the rest of the deck. Sometimes I tutor out Basalt first depending on whether I can keep Arcum for another turn, or if I have something in my hand that I can play out that will screw my opponents over.

SEQUENCE:
1. Tutor for Rings first.
2. Tutor for both Basalt Monolith AND Sensei's Divining Top using the Rings activating Arcum's tutoring ability

COMBO:
Generate infinite mana with Rings + Basalt Monolith. Basalt Monolith costs :3: to untap and taps for :3:. You copy the untap ability with Rings so each untap/tap cycle costs :5: to untap and produces :6:. With the infinite colorless mana, you play SDT and tap SDT to draw your top card and copy this with Rings. Resolve the copied ability and put SDT on top of library drawing a card, the original ability resolves letting you draw SDT. Repeat the cycle to draw your deck and win.

COMBO 2: Possessed Portal + Spine of Ish Sha/Myr Turbine/Crucible of Worlds

WHY AND WHEN TO USE THIS COMBO:
This combo sets up the prison lock. This is mostly used in multiplayer games and against opponents that tend to have strategies relying on drawing cards to win (e.g. Necropotence) Possessed Portal is especially brutal in multiplayer games (read the card, it happens EVERY EOT and EVERYONE is affected). Possessed Portal is what I would love to call Smokestack+Uba Mask on crack. It isn't a fun card, but the card becomes more fun when you assymetrically pair it up with Crucible or Myr Turbine. After you sustained the lock, tutor out the Rings+Basalt+Top combo to win.

SEQUENCE:
1. Tutor for Possessed Portal first.
2. Tutor for Spine of Ish Sha if your board position can sustain 7 mana, this way you sac Spine to your possessed portal, recast it, and reuse it for up to three smokestack/vindicates on your opponents every turn.
2. Tutor for Myr Turbine if you don't have enough artifact creatures to support Arcum. The worst scenario is if they removed Arcum, your Myr Turbine can still continue to feed Possessed Portal and you can continue your game with your permanents while your opponents start with no hand and no permanents.
3. Tutor for Crucible of Worlds if you have strip lands and you need to slow your opponents even more.

COMBO:
Generate infinite mana with Rings + Basalt Monolith. Basalt Monolith costs :3: to untap and taps for :3:. You copy the untap ability with Rings so each untap/tap cycle costs :5: to untap and produces :6:. With the infinite colorless mana, you play SDT and tap SDT to draw your top card and copy this with Rings. Resolve the copied ability and put SDT on top of library drawing a card, the original ability resolves letting you draw SDT. Repeat the cycle to draw your deck and win.

COMBO 3: Mycosynthe Lattice + Nevinrryal's Disk/Oblivion Stone/Darksteel Forge/etc

WHY AND WHEN TO USE THIS COMBO:
Lattice is a late-game and slower combo. True combos with Lattice take over 3 turns to setup but the greatest benefit of Lattice is that by itself, it helps power out incredible plays by having huge synergy with the deck:

E.g.
1. If you have Karn out, that's one combo
2. If you have Tezzeret out, that's another way to untap permanents (including Arcum)
3. If you have Filigree Sages/Clock of Omens out, that's another way to untap permanents (including Arcum) or generate absurd amounts of plays with Planar Portal/Gilded Lotus/Power Artifact etc
4. It allows you to play your heavier blue spells as if they were artifact-costed (e.g. Mind over Matter, Future Sight)

TRUE-COMBOS:
1. Lattice + Karn, Silver Golem
2. Lattice + Darksteel Forge + Nevinrryal's Disk/Oblivion Stone (emergency reset button, you don't need darksteel forge here if you're resetting the board, but forge makes you keep all your permanents while your opponents loses everything).
3. Lattice + untapper (e.g. Clock of Omens/Mind Over Matter pair up easily with the 3-mana generators e.g. Mana Vault/Gilded Lotus/Thran Dynamo/Basalt Monolith/Grim Monolith to generate huge amounts of mana, and then pair up with Arcum/Planar Portal/Memory Jar to almost play out your deck.

SEQUENCE:
1. Tutor for Mycosynthe Lattice if you have secondary cards in hand or in play that can abuse the Lattice for either combos or mana generation.
2. Abuse with said secondary cards.

OTHER COMMONLY TUTORED CARDS/SINGLETONS
- Spine of Ish Sha (against Zur)
- Crucible of Worlds (if you have a stripland)
- Expedition Map (if you have a Crucible, LOL see above :D)
- Plana Portal (usually to tutor for a Mind over Matter next and be stupid)
- Basalt Monolith (tutored more often than Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo because of combo potential with Power Artifact and Rings of Brighthearth
- Clock of Omens (just a disgusting Voltaic Key in the deck)
- Memory Jar (when you have huge mana but not quite infinite or a Mind Over Matter in play, this is an insane card. Also tutored commonly when you have Myr Retriever/Buried Ruin in play)
- Myr Turbine (actually a really commonly tutored card because it gives you free tinkers every turn)
- Cloud Key When you have Top in play and Future Sight/Magus of the Future in play.

Sorry if this section is boring, you really only ever need 2 combos to go off:
1. Rings+Basalt+Top: wins in 2 turns, very very easy to setup with the general
2. Possessed Portal + Myr Turbine: stops your opponents from winning and makes you win in the next 2-3 turns when everyone is locked out.

sco0ter

07-24-2011, 06:06 AM

This list is well capable for multiplayer games as well, but I would not advise bringing it to a casual group.

I don't want to play Prison or infinite combos for exactly this reason. I don't know, if this thread or even this forum is only for the discussion of competetive EDH decks, but do you think an aggro approach could work with Arcum?
I have a decklist in mind with many Myrs, Steel Overseer, Adaptive Automaton, Master of Etherium, Akroma's Memorial, Coat of Arms, Myr Matrix/Turbine/Reservoir, many Equipment and other supportive stuff.

when you have infinite mana out with Mycosynth Lattice

I don't get it.

@your list: Why no Vedalken Shackles and Ward of Bones?

Oh, and why didn't you continue your other Arcum thread?

Bignasty197

07-24-2011, 08:14 PM

In my experience playing against Arcum, it is extremely powerful. It is so powerful that people catch on very quickly to what you are trying to do and will team up against you when they see you lay Arcum down on the table while you are all still shuffling up and rolling for who plays first.

True story: This guy brought Arcum to our casual EDH league. None of us had ever played against it before and didn't quite know what to expect. He didn't seem to be doing much over the course of the game, so we all just left him alone until it was too late where he comboed. Where I play, we tried not to be complete dicks to people for playing things that are super-competitive. This deck was so ridiculous, people asked him to change decks after we played against it a few times. He declined to do so and we all made it a priority to kill him first before we did anything else. After 3 weeks of us killing him first, he stopped coming to play. Until we started a competitive EDH league. He returned with the same deck, but we still had the same game plan. 2 weeks went by and we never saw him again. This was 6 months ago
Moral: People hate playing against this deck.

Admiral_Arzar

07-25-2011, 10:34 AM

Until we started a competitive EDH league. He returned with the same deck, but we still had the same game plan. 2 weeks went by and we never saw him again. This was 6 months ago
Moral: People hate playing against this deck.

If you're playing "competitive" EDH and still find the need to gangbang one player because they're playing a combo deck, perhaps you shouldn't play "competitively" or you should play decks that don't suck. I actually play against Metalwalker regularly - we have an informal competitive EDH league where we all play broken decks - and it's a lot of fun. Then again, our meta is pretty much Arcum vs. Oona vs. Sharum vs. Zur vs. other combo decks, because combo is the best thing ever. This deck is actually a little slower than fast combo decks like Oona and Sharum, but it has a lot of potential power and consistency due to its general.

I don't want to play Prison or infinite combos for exactly this reason.

Then this deck is probably not for you.

EDIT: @ Metalwalker: list looks good, I can't think of much else to put in there. Cards that come to mind right now that aren't uber expensive are Recurring Insight, Mystic Remora and Skullclamp. Have you tested any of those?

Muradin

07-25-2011, 10:48 AM

How about Thousand Year Elixir to activate your General the turn you play him twice? Looks like a solid addition.

How about adding Karn Planeswalker and Jace, the Mind Sculptor?

GGoober

07-25-2011, 08:56 PM

How about Thousand Year Elixir to activate your General the turn you play him twice? Looks like a solid addition.

How about adding Karn Planeswalker and Jace, the Mind Sculptor?

Copy-pasta'd from MTGS (also fucking hate MTGS, fucking mod just came up and trolled me that I'm being too general in my PRIMER. Instead of arguing with him, I just changed out PRIMER for EDH so I don't have to deal with that shit site anymore).

@Thousand Year Elixir: I hope you don't catch me sounding as if I know how to play Arcum optimally but I have cut this card even in the older list I ran 2-3 years back. The reason why Elixir isn't good is because it's a win-more card that takes a non-land slot. Minamo, School at Water's Edge is a great card because it takes a land slot. The reason why Elixir is win-more is because: To untap Arcum and use Elixir, you need to have 2 artifact creatures in play, and this situation doesn't come up too naturally (at least in my list where I feel my artifact creature count is low). If it's the haste effect of Elixir that makes it worthwhile, I would suggest to think again, because this would require setting up Elixir on turn 2-3, while also being able to setup an artifact creature from turn 1-3 to be able to use Elixir. Elixir's untap is win-more and it's haste-activated-ability is in fact very situational. Hope this explains it for you

I'm not sure if I want to run Boseiju and Hall of Bandit Lord in this deck. I used to run Hall but cut it because drawing Hall as your 2nd/3rd land drop sucked balls. My Zur friends always seems to get the nuts with Hall though so I might have to consider it. Thoughts?

Karn was tried for 1 week in the list and is kinda worthless. The best Planeswalker in the deck is Tezzeret. Jace 2.0 is decent. Thanks to my playgroup that usually wins on turn 3-6, I have cut Jace because 4cmc Brainstorm x1 to x2 doesn't seem good at all :/ Karn as a Vindicate was weak because I found tutoring for Spine with Possessed Portal was more fun and seemed to do the job better since you can tutor for it. I would love to play Jace 2.0 and all these great cards (Karn is still awesome) but there's so little space to cut right now. I would say the weakest cards in the MD are now:

Mox Opal (but accelerants > everything)
Kudoltha Forgemaster (really not that great, but sometimes 1 Tinker is all you need to win a game lol)
Static Orb (this is really there for situational purposes. Tangle Wire is also good but I prefer Static Orb)
Lightning Greaves (sometimes I feel like a pussy and tutor this out. In my playgroup, everyone is a combo or combo-control deck so this card is kinda worthless since no one has time to waste mana to StP/Treachery dudes).

@Bignasty: Arcum still kinda lose to Erayo/Sharuum/Zur (most definitely Zur). You can race Sharuum with striplands because they are more vulnerable but Sharuum is for most parts more explosive than you, also your lockpieces aren't spetacular against Sharuum since they play the same style as you do. Zur is just GG when he swings once and grabs necro. If Necro is banned in the format, I'm very confident Arcum can compete against Zur. Also, we all lose to Clique 1v1, but in multiplayer, Arcum is a fun deck. (well fun if your whole group is playing similarly unfun decks, don't play Arcum if people are playing casual decks, don't be a dick, take out your other casual EDH decks instead).

In defense of Arcum, when Arcum goes turn 2 Arcum into Possessed Portal and you don't have the removal, you can beat any 1vX games :P but that doesn't come up too often.

@Arzar:
Remora is great in mutliplayer game, but I designed this deck for 1v1 mainly. I don't like multiplayer games for reasons you know why (Player A stops B from comboing, B stops C, no more counterspells so D goes off). The most recent cut I did was cutting Mind's Eye. Card is insane the way Remora is in multiplayer, however in multiplayer, the main strategy is grab Possessed Portal instead of actual combo pieces such as Rings. This is because you want to shut off multiple answers to Arcum instead of risking 2 turns to tutor up your combo.

@sc00ter:
This thread is a cutthroat EDH deck so sorry I don't have feedback. Playing casual Arcum is not wrong, but this list is mainly for competitive play. If you want casual, there's a ton to explore as you've suggested. If you want some real fun with Myrs, try out Coretapper and Darksteel REactor with tons of untap effect (Unwinding Clock) and Magistrate's Scepter. I actually have a casual deck called IMMA CHARGIN MYR LAZER which involves Coretappers and tons of untap to charge up Lux Cannon and Magistrate's Scepter and Umezawa's Jitte. It's awesome :D

But sorry if this list is competitive. I will have some fun EDH casual decks coming up (Sliver Queen). I started a new thread because I think I was too stupid to look for my old one here (since I really developed the old one on MTGS).

GGoober

07-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Also, can someone PLEASE hook me up with a Korean Manakin. Aside from a foil misdirection and foil Thran Dynamo, I have the whole deck pimped out (sorry no Jap foils since I don't EDH that much, will post pics of the deck soon when I decide I want to waste 2 hours taking photographs of paper).

That Korean Manakin is going to be a hard one to find on Ebay. Help a fello Sourcer out! :P

Muradin

07-26-2011, 04:08 AM

Perhaps Trinket Mage would be good. You know yourself best what he can get in your EDH. I had the Plainswalkers in other artifact based EDHs (not this one though) and they were very strong with Rings of Brightheart, but if they are too slow for your meta, that's fine.

How about Spell Pierce / Mental Misstep then to counter your opponent's accleration / removal on your general?

Another probably bad idea: Thirst for Knowledge for draw and Vendilion Clique to protect your general from removal / vs all those broken decks in your metagame.

I also played the deck on MWS a bit and found myself a little short on blue mana quite often. How about cutting some of the weaker lands like Ghost Quarter for some more Islands? The lands like Mishra's Factory and Blinkmoth Nexus were really good at providing fodder for Arcum Dagsson.

Besides, this deck is pretty awesome and I really enjoyed playing it on MWS. Most people were upset when playing against this, but when I changed my game name to "Serious competitive 1 V 1 EDH" I even got to play against some of those broken Zur decks you mentioned.

Best draw I managed was 2nd Turn General, 3rd turn tutor for Rings of Brightheart, Strip Mine 2x, 4th turn tutor for Crucible, Strip Mine 2x.

EDIT: What's actually the purpose of Time Spiral in this deck? Felt fucking weak every time I played it refilling mine and my opponent's hand. Probably I am missing something but for now I replaced it with Jace, TMS in the decklist I copied from you for online play.

And I see qhat Filligree Sage (probably not spelled correctly here) does, but it seems to range from win more to totally useless in its applications.

Admiral_Arzar

07-26-2011, 09:16 AM

I have the whole deck pimped out.

Do you have a real Arcum yet?

EDIT: What's actually the purpose of Time Spiral in this deck? Felt fucking weak every time I played it refilling mine and my opponent's hand. Probably I am missing something but for now I replaced it with Jace, TMS in the decklist I copied from you for online play.

You may want to replace Spiral with Recurring Insight. While it doesn't untap lands, it usually draws a large number of cards and doesn't refill your opponent's hand. The point of Spiral in combo decks like this is you generally win or get damn close immediately after casting it, so giving your opponent cards doesn't matter as much.

GGoober

07-26-2011, 01:29 PM

UPDATED SECOND POST with the commonly played combos.

@trinket mage: need to find room, but I was considering Artificer's Intuition in Trinket's spot. Not sure yet. probably cut Static Orb for this slot

@Pierce/Misstep - too narrow and is only good on turn 1 stopping accelerants.

@Filigree Sages - I agree, contestors for this slot was: voltaic Constructs, SKill Borrower, Faerie Mechanist. I'm inclined to test Skill Borrower again, but Sages/Voltaic Constructs are nice when you draw hands/Arcum where you can setup that combo without going through multiple turns for another combo.

@arzar: after Will ate my proxy Arcum I decided to get a foil one. He's hiding under my drawn proxy in a sleeve :D

I never ever cast Time Spiral just to draw cards. I only cast it when I have the mana advantage to play out my hand and chain into my draws. I should give Recurring Insight a chance since I've seen how stupid it's been in our playgroup. But I doubt I'm cutting Time Spiral for Insight, I'll probably cut something else for Insight. Any ideas if I should play Timetwister? I used to run one in my old list 2-3 years back along with Diminishing Returns/Windfall and many other draw7s.

The only reason why I cut a lot of the draw7s is because the old approach was based on drawing cards when I have mana advantage and my opponents locked under Smokestack/Winter Orb. When my opponents are under Winter Orb/smokestack, the draw7s become highly assymmetrical. The new list is really focused around Possessed Portal, which doesn't work well with the draw7s.

Admiral_Arzar

07-26-2011, 04:37 PM

@arzar: after Will ate my proxy Arcum I decided to get a foil one. He's hiding under my drawn proxy in a sleeve :D

Any ideas if I should play Timetwister?

HAHAHAHA I forgot about that. If you have 'Twister, I don't see any reason not to play it.

Muradin

08-06-2011, 12:22 PM

Found some gems to play for this deck:

Spellskite, Phyrexian Revoker.

I also like Bribery pretty much in this deck. Don't know whether its broken enough, but most EDHs have game ending creatures that are worth getting for UU3.

I play Gemstone Caverns over Ghost Quarter. I haven't found that Strip land to be very effective while Gemstone Caverns are often a nice tempo boost.

I like Glen Elendra Archmage in this deck, helps a lot in 1v1 matches against control.

Scarecrone hasn't been overwhelming, but a very solid addition as well.

Out of all those cards I think Spellskite and Phyrexian Revoker are absolutely awesome in this deck and there is no reason not to play them. The rest is debatable.

GGoober

08-08-2011, 05:07 PM

Good find on Spellskite. I didn't think about him for this deck. Revoker I'm leaning towards not playing but it could be great in more competitive metagames (blind lead Revoker into Necropotence/SDT).

I used to play Glen Elendra and my friend convinced me to take it out. For the same reason I don't play Forbid/Hinder, I don't play Glen Elendra because she's too slow for a comboy deck like this deck (but also partly she was too slow in my metagame of combo EDH decks).

Cards that are currently weak in my MD:
1 Solemn Simulacrum (too slow)
1 Static Orb (I almost never tutor this)
1 Nevinryal's Disk (I almost never tutor this, and if I want Lattice + Forge combo, Oblivion Stone pops it without passing the turn. It's a relic of the old shennanigan combo and is win more :P)
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vesuva (this sucks unless you're copying Workshop, but I have a foil one so I play it :P)

Lightning Greaves should be the hexshroud Greaves because that way you can untap arcum with your untappers when he is equipped.

For these slots, I think I'll go with:
+1 Revoker/Spellskite (I think Revoker is better)
+1 Skill Borrower (just tested her again, she's pretty nuts)
+1 more card (not sure but I'm sure they'll print more awesome cards for this deck. I'll probably keep Nevinryal's Disk. It's still great when you EOT grab a disk, untap tutor for Forge and blow the board up. Otherwise this could be a Timetwister.)

+2 Basic or Hall of Bandit Lord/Boseiju, still haven't made up my mind on these. I think Ghost quarter probably needs to go. You can't striplock with Ghost quarter in EDH if most decks are blue-based (high islands).

Also, Buried Ruin is ages better than Academy Ruins, and it's one of the best utility lands for this deck!

Sims

08-08-2011, 06:30 PM

1 Nevinryal's Disk (I almost never tutor this, and if I want Lattice + Forge combo, Oblivion Stone pops it without passing the turn. It's a relic of the old shennanigan combo and is win more :P)

I don't have an issue with anything said except this. Stone, while pops the same turn the fact that you have to sacrifice O Stone and then recur it, sucks. Also the fact that Disk destroys lands ontop of everything else when combined with Lattice is huge. Completely resetting your opponents might be win more in some cases, but I've run into games with Sharuum where it's necessary.

Admiral_Arzar

08-09-2011, 05:09 PM

I don't have an issue with anything said except this. Stone, while pops the same turn the fact that you have to sacrifice O Stone and then recur it, sucks. Also the fact that Disk destroys lands ontop of everything else when combined with Lattice is huge. Completely resetting your opponents might be win more in some cases, but I've run into games with Sharuum where it's necessary.

Putting this in context: Metalwalker doesn't play this deck in casual/fun EDH games because everyone hates it and people where we play like whining. The only games it gets played in are against Oona, Sharum, Zur, Azami, Arcanis, etc. The forge/lattice/disk combo is WAY too slow against combo decks that often win turn 3-4.

Windux

08-11-2011, 08:06 AM

I'm missing Ensnaring Bridge to stop creature-based decks early enough.
Also, why no Fact or Fiction, Blue Suns Zenith/Stroke of Genius etc carddraws?

Admiral_Arzar

08-11-2011, 09:17 AM

I'm missing Ensnaring Bridge to stop creature-based decks early enough.
Also, why no Fact or Fiction, Blue Suns Zenith/Stroke of Genius etc carddraws?

Read my post above for the ensnaring bridge explanation. As for the others, they're either too slow or not bomby enough. This deck can assemble all of its combos without using any card-draw anyways.

Sims

08-11-2011, 11:13 AM

Putting this in context: Metalwalker doesn't play this deck in casual/fun EDH games because everyone hates it and people where we play like whining. The only games it gets played in are against Oona, Sharum, Zur, Azami, Arcanis, etc. The forge/lattice/disk combo is WAY too slow against combo decks that often win turn 3-4.

Fair enough. I usually only have maybe 1 other combo deck in a pod at a time but sometimes 1 or more control decks, so the turn 3-4 natural combo doesn't always work and I have to take the game long, in those games being able to complete reset and then win is very valuable, but i can see if the game isn't lasting longer than a few turns typically that might not be the best.

Narglfrob

08-11-2011, 12:33 PM

Have you considered Phantasmal Image? Another great piece of disruption/utility.

socioloaf

09-20-2011, 02:11 AM

So I recently decided to take my collection of random cards and build an Arcum deck. I'm missing a lot of the competitive cards from yours but I'm still trying to improve mine (on a budget) for a semi competitive meta. My local scene isn't too threatening, but a few people are thinking about making some top tier decks (know one Teferi and Sharuum for sure). So I'd like suggestions on how to make mine more powerful while not breaking the bank.

Lands: 31 total (I am realizing now this is a bit low.. seems like I still get enough lands, but probably should make more room)
23 Island
Cephalid Coliseum
Ancient Tomb
Buried Ruin
Darksteel Citadel
Halimar Depths
Strip Mine
Crystal Vein
Seat of the Synod

Blue stuff:

Pseudo tutors:
Trinker Mage
Treasure Mage
Artificer's Intuition
Fabricate
Fact of Fiction
Flash of Insight
Reshape

Draw:
Preordain
Ponder
Thoughtcast
Thirst for Knowledge

Win Cons:
Brain Freeze (I like to storm, fairly uncounterable)
Blue Sun's Zenith (Or use on myself. Kills whole table when infinite)

also,
Magus of the Future
Hurkyl's Recall (just to hate on other strong artifact decks)
Pemmin's Aura

Artifacts:

Accel (dudes):
Silver Myr
Alloy Myr
Plague Myr
Palladium Myr
Solemn Simulacrum
Filigree Sages
Etherium Sculptor

Accel (other):
Gilded Lotus
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Sol Ring
Worn Powerstone
Cloud Key
Voltaic Key
Extraplanar Lens
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun
Mox Opal
Mind Stone
Thran Dynamo
Lotus Petal

Tools, Lockdown, and otherwise:

Pentavus
Triskelavus
Thopter Assembly
Myr Incubator

(these are all supposed to give me board advantage under Possessed. Incubator is probably the strongest as it's tutorable)

Control Creatures:

Spellskite
Steel Hellkite
Phyrexian Revoker
Duplicant

Lockdown pieces:

Feldon's Cane
Tormod's Crypt
Meekstone
Ensnaring Bridge
Possessed Portal
Predator, Flagship
Torpor Orb
Spine of Ish Sah

Combo:
Sensei's Diving Top
Rings of Brighthearth

Other Good Stuff:
Planar Portal
Copper Gnomes
Master Transmuter
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Shimmer Myr
Mirrorworks
Scarecrone
Memory Jar
Lightning Greaves
Faerie Mechanist
Junk Diver
Mimic Vat

Feedback much appreciated. Looking for ways to make it faster / more resilient in a fairly unpredictable multiplayer situation.

GGoober

09-20-2011, 01:10 PM

Up lands to 36 at least.

Replace Penim's Aura with Thousand-Year Elixir (I wouldn't run this but it's still better than Penim's Aura).

For your list, if you are going on a budge, I'll focus the manabase to have as much islands, and play Caged Sun, Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens and untap effects. For such a list, go for Mycosyneth Lattice as your win condition with Winter Orb lock, and untap your lands with Unwinding Clock.

Anyway guys, LED is unbanned. It's going to the list fo sho:

Turn 1: Inkmoth/Blinkmoth/Factory + LED = Arcum, fuck your hand, you activate arcum next turn.
Turn 1: Sol Ring/Sol-land/Mana Vault/Mana Crypt/2cmc Mana Myr + LED = Arcum.

EDH RC is retarded. Necro is still legal, LED is unbanned before jank like Biorhythm and Coalition Victory. But who cares, makes this deck better.

socioloaf

09-20-2011, 02:53 PM

Yeah, I actually did end up putting in 36 lands... can't remember what I took out, I'll have to check when it's in front of me again. Mostly jank.

You really think going for orb --> lattice --> clock is a better lockdown against casual decks than just possesed --> myr incubator in multiplayer? Especially with the tide effects and the artifact mana that I do have, cracking the incubator shouldn't be a problem and I can just let my 3-4 opponents suffocate while I'm pulling out rings / basalt / top. Orb is still an option I'm willing to include, but I think the win-con is still more brutal your way.

Otherwise I probably need a solid backup plan. Thousand year looks good. I might also include both lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots, since giving him haste gives me a really good chance to just taking over the game right there.

GGoober

09-27-2011, 02:44 PM

Updated opening list, will update more later tonight with the actual list (since I'm updating from memory for now).

-1 Vesuva (this land is terrible)
-1 Tectonic Edge (you win on turns 3-6 usually)
-1 Mindslaver (I hardly tutor for it even if it's amazing, Possessed Portal is usually good enough by itself)
-1 Solemn Simulacrum (could probably make it in but Spellskite/Revoker is better)
-1 Static Orb (not relevant since you win faster for most of the time)

+1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
+1 LED (unbanned, EDH RC are n00bs but who cares, makes this deck better)
+1 Spellskite (amazing not just at protecting Arcum)
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Jace, the Mindsculptor

kombatkiwi

10-05-2011, 03:41 AM

I have tried quite a few EDH decks and arcum dagsson is definitely my favourite. I like how it's not the easiest deck to play against a competent opponent because every time your arcum untaps you have a choice to make out of like 20+ options and there can only be one correct decision

Before reading this my version of the deck focused on locking down the opponent prison style
The most satisfying game I played with it was against an azami opponent when I got winter orb out, along with icy manipulator, myr turbine etc. Eventually I just ground him out with lux cannon.
The draw-the-whole-deck combo seems like it makes the deck much better, but in a direction I don't really like. I guess I want to win, so I'm going to try it.

In my version I don't play alloy myr or palladium myr, because I thought that the only arcum accelerators worth playing should be 2 mana or less. However, I did play myr sire, and I think that this card is amazing. Every tinker you use to not get myr turbine is of course much myr value (<- This pun is a completely accidental typo that I just realised after checking my spelling) than wasting a turn on the turbine, so in this sense Myr Sire is comparable to Myr Retriever and Junk diver in that it provides free card advantage.

However because you run so many artifact dorks I can see that for your build it may be unneeded.

In my build I had lots of cards that seemed good on paper but in reality I never really used them
Mind over Matter
Planar Portal
Memory Jar even
So I want to use your build which has much more fast mana
Mine had more counterspells and cantrips like ponder to smooth the draws out

I really like your point about swiftfoot boots vs greaves, I never thought about that

Is workshop good? The fact that you can't play arcum off it seems like it may give you some average draws.

I found duplicant really meh because I couldn't search for it and for 6 mana it was often a bit too situational for that ability

The cards in your deck that I don't really like are Revoker and Cloud Key
Also why don't you play transmute artifact? I think its great for putting into play huge game-ending artifact creatures (sundering titan, BSC, especially while sacrificing spine) but then again, you don't play either of those cards.

Anyway thanks for posting your list

GGoober

10-05-2011, 11:38 AM

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts!

I agree Arcum is actually pretty hard to play optimally. Even against casual players, your playouts can vary depending on what colors opponents are playing. Against casual players with a bunch of removal, it can be hard to just go all out on the Rings/Monolith/Top or Possessed Portal combo even if you drop Arcum early. Grabbing that Greaves could be costly because you might not have another artifact creature to sustain Arcum without losing turns. Against decks with sweepers/countermagic, you really need to decide when the best time is to run out Arcum.

I don't like Lux Cannon for the deck. I tried it and it required untappers (which you do run) to be effective. It's usually faster to double Tinker Disk/Forge, or Spine of Ish-Shah + gilded Lotus etc, to deal with problematic permanents. I used to run Icy, and I should again (answer to Zur) but I'm incredibly tight on slots. I have been considering Icy again, but I also want to run Ensnaring Bridge (we have a Godo player) but I'm not sure what to cut as of now.

Rings/Monolith/SDT combo is the best combo in the deck. Grabbing either of the combo piece isn't dead-weight, they are all amazing by themselves, and the combo is very very easily assembled in this deck than in other decks.

I have cut Alloy Myr out (1 mana generator is weak). I still keep Palladium Myr in. The reason why I played both is still simple even if they don't fit into the 2cmc Myr accelerating into Arcum plan. This is because there are still situations where you can generate 3 mana but fail to find the 4th mana/land and be stuck with only 3-mana and never cast Arcum. I cut Alloy Myr because it wasn't giving enough value at 3cmc, but Palladium Myr is still a Worn Powerstone, which is still valuable in hard-casting other stuff.

Myr Sire is alright, I would recommend running Epochrasite instead, which I used to run :) but right now every card in the list is doing something 'big' even if the creature sucks. I can test Myr Sire, but Toymaker (2cmc dude that has discard a card: Karn's animation ability) were all viable options in the past. I would prefer Scarecrone over Myr Sire but I cut the Scarecrone myself as well.

The cards you listed here that you don't use:
Mind Over Matter
Planar Portal
Memory Jar

These are perhaps the most powerful cards in the deck. I don't use these cards much, but when you draw them or cast them, you are going to be many turns/cards ahead of your opponents. There are situations where you need to tutor for Memory Jar/Planar Portal (i.e. against attrition decks/games). When I have a ton of mana out, I will almost always tutor for a Jar since a draw7 with mana out means that I should most likely win the game. Mind Over Matter is insane, it untaps Arcum, taps down opponents and with Top, it's another win-condition. If you get to untap Gilded Lotus/Arcum 1-2 times in just 1 game, it has already pulled its weight.

You don't need Workshop, but the main reason I decided to play Arcum was: I love artifacts and blue, and I want to play both Drain/FoW and Workshop, so Arcum became natural for my general :) I would say Workshop is needed even if it doesn't cast Arcum. The current list is still a decent deck if my general isn't in play, and Workshop allows a lot of things to be achieved without the general.

Duplicant can't be tutored, but it's one of the top EDH removal out there, the fact that he's a creature is a big plus.

I play Revoker because my meta is filled with fast decks/combo. A blind Revoker on Necropotence is critical, but I agree it's the weaker slot that's going in and out.

I used to play Transmute, but I don't like the cost disadvantage. I might try it out again. The combos to this deck are really via Possessed Portal/Crucible/Myr Turbine and Basalt/Rings/SDT. I've been fine without Transmute artiact. I don't like playing BSC/Titan (used to play Titan with Master Transmuter) because ever since I streamlined the deck to go with a few victory paths, most of them aren't required. My meta is also heavily combo-based, so destroying lands don't mean too much, another reason why I stopped playing Winter Orb (I wrote a primer for Arcum based heavily on Winter Orb in the past on MTGS) because Winter Orb/Titan/Armageddon aren't too impressive when everyone is playing heavy mana accelerant. If your meta is more casual, Winter Orb/Titan is deadly but in those groups, you shouldn't be playing Arcum :P

Hope this helps the discussion :)

kombatkiwi

10-06-2011, 12:17 AM

Yeah I know lux cannon is not very good I just really like the card haha
A really good answer to zur is mindslaver because obviously they have necropotence in their deck so you can just search it and make them pay 40 life but you probably already knew that.
The thing that's really good about mindslaver is that it can just be the default go-to artifact if you really having a tough choice of what to search for
This is especially the case if you need to stop opposing counterspells.
It's always going to be a combination of Time Walk (almost, they still get a draw step sadface), Telepathy and Mana Short, which is great, but often it is so much more, like you play their fetchland and make them fail to find, you play their spell and then counter it with their own card, you make them attack into your blockers, all the tricks that make mindslaver amazing.

I definitely think Sire is better than epochrasite but yeah I need to test your version first before I can really comment on much else

cheers

Mark Sun

11-07-2011, 10:05 PM

Deck is the nuts, I did some one-handed testing (trying to figure out if I want to build the deck), and I'm really impressed.

What slots are more flex slots can I tune for my own metagame? You mentioned that you played Revoker for your own metagame.

Offler

11-08-2011, 09:43 AM

To Socioloaf, Just one note:

You have Extraplanar Lens in your deck. I personally use Snow-covered Islands instead of normal islands in order to not give more mana to opponents.

The lenses increase mana of lands with same name (not type) as imprinted land. Keep that in mind.

Rest of deck seems decently broken when build up around its general.

GGoober

11-09-2011, 12:18 PM

Thanks Morbid :D

I haven't played EDH in the past 2 months, but the deck was designed to fight a competitive cutthroat meta. It's still half a power-tier below Oona/Grim-long and Zur, but the main reason why I play Arcum is: I love Drain, I love Workshop, Arcum is 3U in casting cost i.e. it's one of the generals where you can very easily accelerate into consistently, and he also happens to have a tutoring effect v.s. something random, which helps in consistently winning games.

To answer your question on flex slots, note that you are always going to go off with Rings/Monolith/SDT combo or Planar Portal/Crucible/Myr Turbine route. You cannot cut accelerants (especially the Myrs), you cannot cut the permissions suite and tutors. You cannot cut anymore artifact creatures because the list currently is still a little short of artifact creatures to consistently tutor with Arcum at times.

Things that you can cut from the OP really is:
1. Jace (he's nice to have but Tezz >>>> Jace, and you are not really winning with Tezz anyway)
2. Magus of the Future/Cloud Key (if you don't feel the need to increase your chances of DRAWING into the SDT/Future-sight combo/Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key)
3. Sculpting Steel (it's a broken card in the deck but doesn't really consistently win you games. It's just good to copy opponent's sol rings, or your own broken stuff)
4. Master Transmuter (nice to have and powerful at times, but you can cut it if you want, make sure you have enough creatures)
5. Pithing Needle (I don't advice cutting this though, there's always a target)

Everything else is pretty much uncuttable, especially the accelrants.

I used to play a lot of Tide-effects in my initial list that I developed for competitive Arcum. The strategy was bent around Winter Orb so having a Candelabra (tutor'd by Arcum) with WOrb out and Gauntlet of Power/Extra-planar lens/High Tide/Palinchron was the old deck's way to win games under prison effect. It took over 3-5 turns to win the game as opposed to currently winning with Possessed Portal. The only issue I have with Winter Orb + Tide strategy is that it is terrible against competitive cutthroat decks that use a ton of artifact mana. Also, since Tolarian Academy was banned, the Tide effects + Winter Orb + Candelabra strategy was greatly weakened as a prison effect. It never guaranteed locks if your opponents drew artifact mana, but the Possessed Portal lock is a guaranteed lock because it stops them from drawing cards and finding outs while their entire board/hand is stripped away while you maintain yours with Crucible/Myr Turbine.

kombatkiwi

11-26-2011, 05:18 PM

I won a 4-man pod yesterday with a suboptimal build of this

It was a pay-to-enter event so I was trying to do well but there were points based on sportsmanship and such so I had to not be too much of a dbag

In the end I couldn't really do a lot because I got hated out really hard. (only blue player at the table, shit happens)

I had to recur oblivion stone about 3 times to stop kamahl from overrunning me and Rubinia and Glissa kept colluding to steal arcum and then run glissa into it.
I cast arcum for 10 mana and then it died again because I was forced to O stone.
In the end I sculpting steeled Glissa's bonehoard and then killed everybody by equipping it to my inkmoth nexus.

The prizes were good and the TO made it fun by giving out spot prizes based on magic trivia questions

Im going to buy some more cards for this so I can hopefully finish it properly

Edit: One card I just realised you don't have in your list is mouth of ronom
It's a really strong land and it's easy to include, I recommend that you try it

GGoober

12-01-2011, 01:43 PM

kombatkiwi

12-16-2011, 05:55 AM

I haven't considered Mouth of Ronom. I did consider Scrying Sheets once but the games were ending too fast that it was in fact a bad land. Mouth is a good candidate (kills Zur) and I will probably include it. For now, I'm running a Koreanized deck so I'll pass on the mouth unless I'm entering a super competitive event :P

Nice report, and glad you like the deck! Just curious, you were recurring OStone with Buried Ruins? I really dislike Academy Ruins after being spoiled with Buried Ruins. Drawing a card is critical and losing land-drops actually don't hurt as much when your whole deck is powered by artifact mana.

Buried Ruin is definitely the better card (in this)

I know I had Academy Ruins in play at that time and I definitely used it once that game
But I think I had Buried Ruin as well and used that too, because later in the game I dropped Crucible. That interaction isn't really gamebreaking but it's definitely very strong

Both the cards are good and you aren't super reliant on blue sources so both can be easily included without too much trouble

Are there scans of your deck anywhere? It sounds pretty awesome

mrjumbo03

01-04-2012, 12:38 PM

Awesome list Metalwalker! I am now looking at my next project.

Something I noticed while testing this list is I find myself lacking U sources more often that I'd want to, specially for the UU cost cards. Looking at the manabase, I've identified 3 possible cuts:
Ghost Quarter
- 99% of EDH players will have basics in their deck, and you also said that it's weak and bound to get cut.
Dust Bowl
- I find it too slow specially considering you tend to already win before getting any use out of this.
Rishadan Port
- Though I love this land to death in my Death and Taxes deck, sadly it doesn't do as much in EDH where artifact mana, and ramp reign supreme.

In their place I put in:
An Island
Saprazzan Skerry
- Another 2 mana land doesn't hurt, and gives you another possible turn 2-3 Arcum.
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
- Gives you another out if SDT is gone, as you can Mind Over Matter + this with infinite mana out to draw your deck -- from there, you can then play Academy Ruins and put cards back on top of your library so you won't deck out and just win from there. Slightly worse than Temple Bell combo but at least it only takes up a land drop in opening the possibility for said combo in this deck.

I haven't touched on the rest of the deck yet, but I do agree that Ensnaring Bridge deserves a slot in the deck as well. Oh and I found a nice interaction between Time Spiral and Possessed Portal, wiping everybody's hand and effectively getting the concession from everybody else.

Looking forward to the next update of your list!

GGoober

01-05-2012, 03:11 AM

Nice find mrjumbo. I run Mikokoro in Karn and for some reason I didn't catch that you can draw your whole deck with it too!

LOL at Time Spiral + Possessed Portal. Yeah my playgroup has Zur, and Bridge can single-handedly stop multiple generals (my playgroup has Kaalia and Godo as well).

I haven't played in ages and I'm liqudating the ENGRISH foils in the deck so I'm sticking with just Korean cards and non-foils for consistency. Maybe I'll scan the entire deck :P

I agree with cutting Ghost Quarter and Dust Bowl. I will probably still keep Port. Port is ridiculous because it allows you to cast Arcum safely in situations where you go first and you EOT port their land and lead off with Arcum. I've ran into situations where EOT port upkeep porting 2 of their lands and using artifact mana to accelerate out Arcum mana-drain free. Dust Bowl is not needed because if you're going for the crucible lock, you would be tutoring for Expedition Map for Strip Mine for most parts. I played both ports and Dust bowl because I had foil copies :P

kombatkiwi

01-09-2012, 06:41 PM

Im going to gut boots for greaves because the 1 mana to equip is so much more relevant than the clock of omens interaction
Admittedly it's like minamo as well as mind over matter etc
But i think the haste is more important than the shroud and if you're at that stage of your combo you should just be able to put greaves onto something else

Also i think petrified field belongs in the "Never use this so I'd rather just have a blue source" category

Phyrexia's Core is an idea but the only thing to really do with it is sac spine of ish sah (and sculpting steel/metamorph copying spine) so it might not be worth it

Im considering cutting magus of the future because I don't like having the redundancy with future sight
I think magus is definitely the worse one because it dies to StP etc and people can treachery it
Filigree sages is another card that hasn't been doing much for me lately

Edit: Nvm keep magus the card is amazing
Just played a game where I had etherium sculptor and cloud key in play

mrjumbo03

01-10-2012, 02:22 AM

kombatkiwi

01-10-2012, 07:09 PM

I'd definitely add Trinket Mage in the list just because at worst, he's a tutor for sol ring, and at best he's a tutor for the game-winning SDT (He also tutors for Pithing which could prove relevant). Now, if only there's an artifact creature that costs 1 or less that doesn't totally suck that we could put in to tutor for fodder when you need to. Maybe Myr Moonvessel? It's fine as fodder when you go for the Rings + Basalt combo as you need 2 mana for that to go off on the same turn.

Here's the changes I've made:
- Jace (Doesn't really do much in this deck despite it being in the top-3 best blue cards printed. At most, its 1-2 brainstorms before you win.)
- Sculpting Steel (Generally copies ramp or fodder most of the time as there really is not much you can do with it unlike in Sharuum.)
+ Ensnaring Bridge (Helps a lot against fast decks before you can assemble a combo.)
+ Trinket Mage

On the fence regarding:
Petrified Field (But there are times when you need to reuse a manland as fodder.)
Magus of the Future (UUU + being susceptible to removal = not that great.)
Master Transmuter (Lack of bombs to put into play as most of the cheating is done thru Arcum.)

I've always played trinket mage, I didn't realise it wasn't on this list, haha.
Speaking of myr moonvessel, the other day I was considering using Artificer's Intuition, because it finds all the amazing cards (Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault, Top) while discarding what you don't need, but I wasn't sure whether it was worth adding or not.
If you need to trinket mage for fodder you can always go Trinket > Map > Factory. Admittedly it's more mana but it's not too bad of a move.

I don't run jace either.
I keep sculpting steel just because it has a lot of utility.
I've never felt like I needed ensnaring bridge but it's probably the best anti-aggro card. I've also tested contagion engine at one point too because sometimes you want to kill an opponents board of creatures but in the end I took that out as well because it was just a bit too narrow.

I still don't know if Filigree Sages is worth it
If you go Power Artifact + Sages + Gilded Lotus then that's infinite
But it doesn't work with Mana Vault because you need U to activate sages and if you have Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith then you go infinite with power artifact anyway.
I guess there's a bit of utility just having U - untap target artifact but I'd really rather try put power artifact on a monolith and sages with no monolith just seems really bad

I took out master transmuter too.
If you find yourself with big artifacts in your hand then I think it's better to play Scroll Rack or Brainstorm or TFK (I play all three of those).

I'm keeping magus of the future for now just because the effect is so strong but i'm on the fence about it.

mrjumbo03

01-17-2012, 12:42 AM

Dropped Master Transmuter for Solemn Simulacrum. Master is 99% of the time just fodder for me, and I'd rather have that land and a card off the top for the same converted mana cost.

Filigree Sages to me seems weak as well. 4 CMC does it for me, as well as a mediocre ability because of the cost.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127358&d=1326776672
Looks good to me. It serves both as an accelerant and fodder. It's a slightly worse or better, (depending on how you look at it) Guardian Idol.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

Might deserve some look as tutorable hate that is so much better than what's available. However, it does hit Future Sight/Magus of The Future. But I'd say that's probably okay for a tutorable pseudo-LoTV, that's even castable.

kombatkiwi

01-17-2012, 01:13 AM

I play solemn too yeah
I think new man is a bit worse than guardian idol, and I'm not sure if I'm going to play it or not.

The problem with 3 mana fodders is that you can directly compare them to cathodion.

This one is already almost certainly worse than Scuttlemutt which I'm pretty sure nobody was actually playing.

Scuttlemutt
2/2
(3)
Artifact Creature - Scarecrow
T: Add 1 mana of any colour
T: Target creature becomes colour(s) of your choice until eot

Comparing it to alloy myr which some people are using
-Worse because it's not a myr so can't find it with myr turbine (quite marginal but does happen)
-Better because it can randomly save arcum from a doom blade or a terror (also probably going to happen in like 1 of 1000 games)

Anyway the point is that scuttlemutt is better than this new card and nobody plays scuttlemutt.

But I think we should get some cathodion / myr moonvessel discussion going because those cards don't seem too bad actually.

This new cage thing, let's compare it to Relic of Progenitus which I think is the next best card for that slot.

-Both have a slight effect on us (Buried Ruin / Academy Ruins / Crucible for Relic, Reshape/Transmute Artifact/Magus of Future/ Future Sight for the new card)
-Relic of Progenitus can be cracked in response if they try to use a Naturalize-type spell on it and it will RFG their stuff to slow their game down. If the opponent Naturalizes this new card then they're free to do whatever they want.
-This card shuts off from-the-deck effects like Birthing Pod, Green Sun Zenith, Chord of Calling, Natural Order, Oath of Druids, Bribery, Defense of the Heart, Lurking Predators, Pattern of Rebirth (some of those are really too slow against arcum but some can be quite scary eg Natural Order).
-This provides a continuous lockdown unlike relic, ie your opponent can't make one threatening graveyard play, force you to crack it, then they make another graveyard play - it's affecting them until they get rid of it.
-If you really don't need either card at all at least relic of progenitus is a cantrip.

I don't play relic of progenitus and I don't think I would play this new card either.

GGoober

01-17-2012, 06:24 PM

Glad to see you two guys drooling over the deck, I haven't played in forever but I agree on the following cuts with Master/Filigree Sages. Trinket Mage needs to be in. I'm still debating between the mage or Artificer's Intuition (favoring Artificer because it is more powerful in general).

Of course when Metalworker is fairly unbanned, he goes straight to this deck. Hope to be playing soon again, but mrjumbo has defoiled my entire deck :P

Also to note, Scarecrone is actually pretty sick, but after I cut some of the more insane creatures e.g. Memnarch/Sundering Titan, he became weak. If you want to play Sundering Titan, Scarecrone is really good in the deck. Scuttlemutt is good too, except I prefer Alloy Myr because it looks cuter and fits in the Myr theme for the deck :P

sgfalex

01-18-2012, 05:10 PM

looking at building this deck, any changes you would make up to this point? also what changes would you make to make this list aimed at multiplayer?

mrjumbo03

01-23-2012, 12:35 PM

@Metal, can't wait to get my hands on them. :)

I'd say it's Trinket > Artificer's Intuition because you generally don't need to tutor that many times (specially with the limiting factor of mana cost 0 and 1 leaving you with few choices, most of which are just more acceleration) plus I don't like the discard that goes along with using it.

I didn't even know that a card like Scuttlemutt exists, and I'll probably put it in over Filigree Sages, as I have never once used its untap ability. It's either Scuttlemutt or Faerie Mechanist to keep the artifact creature count. But I am thinking if I should just go ahead and put Rhystic Study over it in the list as that card is insane in EDH (specially in multiplayer). I think Rhystic is better than Mind's Eye in this deck because of its lower mana cost, and so you'll draw some cards off of it before having the chance to go off, as opposed to having the opportunity to draw cards when you should be going off (turns when Mind's Eye becomes active, you should probably be winning already). Downside is that's one less fodder for Arcum, but it does give you another blue card to pitch. I'd like to hear some of your thoughts.

Also, I agree that they should unban Metalworker (it's not broken in this format) so I won't have a hard time thinking about what to put in as that immediately takes this slot.

kombatkiwi

01-29-2012, 05:55 PM

I cut Scarecrone and Memnarch and Sundering Titan because they're so iffy when you draw them and you don't have a reliable way to tutor them out.

Artificer's Intuition seems more and more appealing to me
It can find
-Mana Acceleration (which are some of the best cards in the deck, undoubtedly)
-Voltaic Key (Lots of utility or can be more mana accel)
-Top (Basically a win condition)
-Map (Fodder to sac, or buried ruin etc)
-Needle (Handy)

The good thing is that it helps you discard all the fat artifacts which you need to play but don't want to draw (Mycosynth Lattice, Darksteel Forge, Possessed Portal etc) and helps you get live accel and other utility cards.
In that sense it really replaces the slot of Brainstorm or TFK.

Both Mind's Eye and Rhystic are too slow I think
If I want to draw cards then I basically want a second memory jar
This means I want one of the following options
-Dreamstone Hedron
-Temple Bell (Doesn't seem too bad actually because then you get the alt-kill with mind over matter)
-Courier's Capsule even

The other thing you can do is just alter your combo a bit so that you get sculpting steel and actually do have a second memory jar.

The cool thing about Couriers Capsule and Dreamstone Hedron (which I have discovered after playing with Mind Stone a lot) is that if you have the combo of infinite mana with Rings/Monolith but no way to draw your deck out you can copy their activated abilities basically for free for the extra cards. (Courier's Cap not entirely free though because of the U in the cost)

They seem like good inclusions but I don't know what to cut for them, it's a very tight list.

j369fox

01-31-2012, 04:46 AM

I currently play a Oona EDH Deck and want to swap to this. I love the thread and all the adjustments. The decks look sweet.

My question is, Metalworker is the list on post #1 your current build with the recent adjustments you were talking about making.

kombatkiwi

02-03-2012, 01:12 AM

I'm gonna test out Mirran spy and Grand Architect just because I feel like a bit of variety

Edit
Mirran spy was pretty sexy.
Couldn't get my hands on a grand architect unfortunately.
Don't ask me if it's worth cutting anything for it because my IRL list is missing quite a few cards.

Edit again
Artificers Intuition is AMAAAAZING
Testing online with complete list
You need a Myr Moonvessel though if you want to play it

Looking at considering Riddlesmith and the 4 mana enchantress one

Edit for a 3rd time
KombatKiwi shuffles library
KombatKiwi draws 7 cards
atx32 duplicates Karador, Ghost Chieftain
KombatKiwi's life total is now 40 (+20)
Karador, Ghost Chieftain is now 0/21
<KombatKiwi> Thinking
KombatKiwi plays Wasteland from Hand
KombatKiwi taps Wasteland
atx32's life total is now 40 (+20)
KombatKiwi plays Sol Ring from Hand
KombatKiwi taps Sol Ring
KombatKiwi plays Voltaic Key from Hand
KombatKiwi taps Voltaic Key
<System> Player Lost

Mirran Spy continues to be Cash Money

ARD

02-29-2012, 08:38 PM

kombatkiwi

03-01-2012, 03:52 AM

I was thinking about making an Arcum deck for awhile, and after I found this thread about a week ago, I put one together. It has performed absolutely fantastically, and much better than I thought it would (my list is a bit more budget than some of yours). I just wanted to say thanks for the awesome card ideas, the in depth explanation and analysis of your deck, and your thought process while playing. It has been a big help.

The last thing I want to say is that Possessed Portal is absolutely the best card in the deck. A turn two or three Arcum followed with a Possessed Portal and Myr Turbine is practically a guaranteed win. So, thanks for that card idea specifically.

I almost never use this but its great when you need it in clutch situations.

Most of my games are won by
Rings and monolith gives infi mana
top draw my deck
infi mana with key, turbine, rings is infinite myr tokens
kill all their permanents with lattice disk forge
if one of the lattice disk forge is in grave and you cant get it back then mindslavering the opponent is usually sufficient
play possessed portal so the opponent cant draw a card and you cant deck out
next turn swing with a million myr tokens

I played blue sun for a short time until i realised that you dont need a dedicated finisher card, all the combo pieces can win by themselves.

Its cool that you like the deck make sure you post if you have any ideas :-)

ARD

03-04-2012, 01:51 AM

One card that I have been playing in the deck with a bit of success is Laboratory Maniac. Very frequently, it seems that Possessed Portal is the first card I tutor out (so long as I have a second creature to sac). Next comes Turbine, which gives me plenty of tutors. I love to go Rings after turbine, which gives double tokens and double tutor on the same turn, which I can use to pull out the Basalt Monolith and Top, giving me my infinite mana and infinite draw. I play the Maniac (or Mycosnyth Lattice first if I am needing blue mana), and then double draw with top again for the win. It has won me a couple of games now, and I have been quite happy with it.
One more that I have been running is Hurkyl's Recall. Obviously when combined with the Lattice, it is a one-sided Upheaval.
Other than that, it is a pretty standard Arcum list (minus Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Force of Will, and Blinkmoth Nexus), so it runs very well. I have been thoroughly impressed with the deck so far, and if I can get my hands on the Mana Crypt, I will keep my hands crossed for the turn one Arcum (Island, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring).
Does anybody else have any suggestions or ideas for the deck that they have been using?

kombatkiwi

03-05-2012, 01:01 AM

ARD

03-05-2012, 06:29 PM

I guess I forgot to mention that I either sac the Possessed Portal to it's ability at the end of my opponent's turn, or I tutor out a Spine on the turn I go off.
I have yet to actually play Hurkyl's Recall, but it seems like a good option. A good Mystical Tutor target with Lattice out at the very least.

The Big Ragu

03-16-2012, 11:35 AM

Question: Why aren't you running Cryptic Command in your list?

mrjumbo03

03-16-2012, 12:07 PM

Question: Why aren't you running Cryptic Command in your list?

I've played with the deck a couple of times with a few minor changes (around 4-5 cards but I do have a few more U sources than Metal's list) and I can say that the UUU in Cryptic Command's cost can be hard to get some times. Also, the deck doesn't really need much permission specially those that cost a lot. Games go, land Arcum and getting to activate him once puts you way ahead already. 2 turns with an active Arcum is game usually. So the only turn you really need your permission is when Arcum is still sick, so it's better for free counterspells or at worst those that cost 2, so you only need 6 mana the turn you play Arcum as opposed to 8 when it's Cryptic Command.

One card I'm looking at right now is Argivian Restoration. What do you guys think? It's tutorable by Mystical Tutor, and at worst it can get you the fodder you just sacrificed to Arcum. Gives more value to Intuition, Artificer's Intuition, Memory Jar, Mind over Matter etc.

kombatkiwi

03-16-2012, 04:02 PM

I've played with the deck a couple of times with a few minor changes (around 4-5 cards but I do have a few more U sources than Metal's list) and I can say that the UUU in Cryptic Command's cost can be hard to get some times. Also, the deck doesn't really need much permission specially those that cost a lot. Games go, land Arcum and getting to activate him once puts you way ahead already. 2 turns with an active Arcum is game usually. So the only turn you really need your permission is when Arcum is still sick, so it's better for free counterspells or at worst those that cost 2, so you only need 6 mana the turn you play Arcum as opposed to 8 when it's Cryptic Command.

One card I'm looking at right now is Argivian Restoration. What do you guys think? It's tutorable by Mystical Tutor, and at worst it can get you the fodder you just sacrificed to Arcum. Gives more value to Intuition, Artificer's Intuition, Memory Jar, Mind over Matter etc.

Theres a lot of win in this post, everything he said about cryptic command is correct.
I guess argivian restoration is the next card i need to try. A lot if the time when comboing off I need another buried ruin effect and it seems good at all stages of the game.

sgfalex

04-02-2012, 12:38 AM

Anyone have any updated lists for this deck up to this point, i haven't seen any chatter on this deck in a long while but i am still very much interested in it

a little background ... my local card shop holds free edh tournaments with store credit as the prize and ive been dominating with my Oona deck which is full of infinite mana combos + Oona to exile all my opponents libraries for the win, they have since put into effect a house rule banning all "infinite combos" mana, life, damage, basically anything that "wins" you the game right on the spot... I have tried to have conversations with them regarding this like what defines an infinite combo yada yada.. and so i figure ill just build arcum and prison lock to win the games instead but still run the things to create infinite mana etc just not use them and I assume the deck will still run just fine?

but anyway please please someone post a fully updated totally complete list (money no object)

mrjumbo03

04-02-2012, 06:59 AM

@Sgfalex, the thing is, Arcum also wins through infinite stuff haha so it wouldn't be that much different with your Oona list, which I might say is half-a-tier stronger than Arcum already due to the numerous tutors and winning on the spot with Oona. The prison plan of Arcum (going for Possessed Portal) requires you to go get infinite mana as well so you can win through it, and this is something that your shop wouldn't like.

My list (Almost same as Metalwalker's except for a few cards)
[1 GENERAL]
1 Arcum Dagsson

[35 LAND]
16 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Petrified Field
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Saprazzan Skerry
1 Crystal Vein

[23 ACCELERANT]
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind Stone
1 Guardian Idol
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dyanmo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Cloud Key
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Plague Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Alloy Myr
1 Palladium Myr
1 Voltaic Key
1 Clock of Omens

[11 CARD ADVANTAGE]
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Myr Retriever
1 Junk Diver
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Memory Jar
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Turbine
1 Planar Portal

[7 PRISON/OTHERS]
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Possessed Portal
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Darksteel Forge

[7 REMOVAL]
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinryal's Disk
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[16 NON-ARTIFACT]
1 Pact of Negation
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mana Drain
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Trinket Mage
1 Fabricate
1 Intuition
1 Power Artifact
1 Mind over Matter
1 Time Spiral
1 Future Sight
1 Magus of the Future
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

*You can go and change 5 islands into the 4 U fetches (no money yet to get foil copies) and a Workshop (I'll get this first before the 4 U fetches). On that note, I still need to find me a Foil Grim Monolith and Foil Misdirection as well.

The list is really really well tuned already, and you probably won't be able to find better options. The deck might feel clunky at times when your opponent successfully kills Arcum consecutive times, and you're left with the underwhelming artifact creatures, but more often than not, if Arcum lives for even one turn, you'll probably win 90% of the time. I usually go, EOT tutor for Rings, my turn tutor, copy tutor for Basalt and SDT or Planar Portal (If Planar Portal, you proceed to tutor, copy tutor for Myr Turbine and Clock of Omens and you can tutor your deck from there - tap Myr Turbine to make 2 myrs via Rings, tap both myrs and copy untap ability to untap Planar Portal and Myr Turbine and so on). I have yet to lose in 1v1 games, but multiplayer is a struggle at times because people will really gang up on you for using a douchey general. But I'm sure you're used to that for using Oona already. I had a game where I go first turn Arcum, gets killed by doom blade, I go 2nd turn Arcum and it gets killed by phantasmal image by another player. Arcum is good though when there is another huge threat on the table as once you get to sneak Arcum, you can win from out of nowhere.

On another note, if you're looking for a tier-1 general without using infinite combos, the only one I can think of is Bryant Cook's Godo deck (Had that before changing into Arcum).

Mark Sun

04-02-2012, 10:31 PM

Loving the discussion here. I'm moving to the Akron area pretty soon and I've finally shaken all of the proxies out of the deck (minus a suspicious looking Workshop :cool:), so I'll be in the middle of a pretty competitive EDH scene. I can't believe I missed Trinket Mage from the start either.

I'm definitely not much of an EDH tweaker though, so I'll stick with Metalwalker's list and make some small changes here and there. Does anyone have experience with Stroke of Genius in this deck by the way? I actually cut the Jace, TMS, a while ago, and I went for a kill that gets instant results when you go the Rings ==> SDT + Monolith plan.

GGoober

04-02-2012, 11:46 PM

I've been taking a break from EDH (and MTG in general) for a few months, but Mark I would go with mrjumbo's list since he's had more playtesting and has added a lot of useful suggestions earlier.

My list was really focused on hitting 3U to drop Arcum on turns 2-3. Even crap like Alloy Myr is being played because you can draw hands that can be a combination where Alloy Myr would in fact accelerate you (most people think 3cmc accelerant does not accelerate which is not true e.g. Workshop + Alloy Myr or Mana crypt + Island + Alloy Myr are all examples).

But if your focus is not about hitting Arcum ASAP, then Trinket Mage and Artificer's Intuition are all busted cards in the slightly mid game. I didn't play TM and AI because I was going the pure speed build. But TM is invaluable. There are some subpar cards like Filigree Sages etc. Just play my or jumbo's list and tweak what you see fit for your metagame.

Glad you take some interest in the deck :) It's quite unfair if your opponents can't counter or remove Arcum lol.

kombatkiwi

04-17-2012, 10:46 PM

The Big Ragu

04-19-2012, 10:06 AM

Has anybody considered cutting the lattice/disk/forge package?
All of the pieces are terrible draws, it's rare to have a game where you actually tutor for this and none of the pieces really do anything if you combo with rings and top.
I feel like the only reason it's in the deck is simply because it's a holdover of previous versions.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmmm9eTV0S1qiq96ko1_400.jpg

I've played with the deck a couple of times with a few minor changes (around 4-5 cards but I do have a few more U sources than Metal's list) and I can say that the UUU in Cryptic Command's cost can be hard to get some times. Also, the deck doesn't really need much permission specially those that cost a lot. Games go, land Arcum and getting to activate him once puts you way ahead already. 2 turns with an active Arcum is game usually. So the only turn you really need your permission is when Arcum is still sick, so it's better for free counterspells or at worst those that cost 2, so you only need 6 mana the turn you play Arcum as opposed to 8 when it's Cryptic Command.

One card I'm looking at right now is Argivian Restoration. What do you guys think? It's tutorable by Mystical Tutor, and at worst it can get you the fodder you just sacrificed to Arcum. Gives more value to Intuition, Artificer's Intuition, Memory Jar, Mind over Matter etc.

I've thought about what you've had to say, and I've come to agree with you. I no longer believe this deck really needs Cryptic Command.

Anyways, I have a question for you all. Do you consider Memnarch, Sundering Titan, and Steel Hellkite to be win more cards? I've read a few people on (I think) Salvation saying that all you really need to finish the game once you have it in the bag is Karn. And I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with that stance. Either way, I have no current designs to take any of those cards out, if only because I enjoy playing with them so much.

kombatkiwi

04-21-2012, 05:56 AM

I dont play any of those - even karn.

The problem with bomby artifact creatures is that it's difficult to cheat them into play and so if you're playing one either you have infinite mana and you've won the game already or youre randomly like "7 mana - time to jam a memnarch" which just seems terrible.

I was serious about the lattice disk forge thing. I would still play oblivion stone because it's nice to have a bullet effect like that, but lattice and forge literally do nothing outside of that derpy combo that I never ever try and go for.

Also I'm definitely going to play cavern of souls in this, just to make arcum uncounterable.

Offler

04-21-2012, 07:02 AM

I was playing combination of Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice, Nevynirrals disk and even Platinum angel with boots.

blue...

Transmute Artifact
Reshape
Grand architect
Master Transmuter

Copper gnomes

Those cards with some blue control help me to cheat some of this stuff into play. The problem was that most cards in this combination cannot be replaced with any other card which has similar effect. There are no such cards.. Only tutoring with very strong control was viable.

kombatkiwi

04-21-2012, 07:33 AM

I found that reshape and transmute are fine but mainly you use them to get combo pieces, no sundering titan.

Show and tell effects are ok but to get fat awkward artifacts out of ny hand id rather use scroll rack or brainstorm or artificers intuition etc.

Mark Sun

04-22-2012, 01:13 AM

Some light feedback after an EDH night with the new metagame.

Going to start with mrjumbo's list and work with it, but will be adding some anti-hate slots as well. Opposing Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker was really good against this deck. Going to start with Wipe Away and/or Echoing Truth to help with that. I missed Trinket Mage dearly because I hadn't added him in yet, but I want him + Artificer's Intuition ASAP. Will also be adding some GY hate (metagame choice), which will start at Tormod's Crypt (recurrable with Academy Ruins), and Grafdigger's Cage.

Also considering Mental Misstep. Will let you guys know after next week :wink:

mike1987

04-23-2012, 07:57 AM

menace13

04-23-2012, 08:07 AM

Hi, can anyone enlighten me how is basalt monolith + rings + SDT equals win? Yes there is infinite mana, but you need something like future sight to keep playing the SDT right? If not you will just bounce SDT back to the top of the library and you cant really draw it?
Rings copies everything Top does, including Draw then put SDTop on deck. Kind of like Voltaic Key and SDTop. With enough mana it functions as a Future Sight, sort of only it places them in hand.

mike1987

04-23-2012, 11:37 AM

kombatkiwi

04-23-2012, 07:03 PM

Ah i see, thanks for the explanation!

To sidetrack, do you think this deck need creature removals to be more effective. Sometimes a sisay's kataki or rofellos can be quite devastating? I am thinking of trying out vedalken shackles, pongify and all is dust.

All of those cards are much too slow I think (not pongify but its a bit narrow)
Try something like capsize or aether spellbomb if you want that kind of effect

mrjumbo03

04-25-2012, 05:07 AM

kombatkiwi

04-25-2012, 06:13 AM

Aside from Cavern of Souls (not 100% sure yet - another non-U producing land for our other goodies), it looks like AVR gives Arcum nothing.

On another note, what do people think of Aphetto Alchemist? It's essentially a mana rock that comes into play tapped (if you have one on board already, ala Voltaic Key) with the added benefit of being able to untap Arcum for another use. Downside is he's another non-artifact creature.

Temporal mastery might actually be ok because you should already be playing scroll rack
Not sure if this is worth it

The "2U Blink 2 artifacts or creatures" is decent too - possibly not good enough, again. If you have gilded lotus it's a free untap target permanent, but your arcum loses haste if you untap it this way. Not very good

Vessel of Endless Rest is interesting if your meta has lots of graveyard play, and it has the minor upside of the option to mistveil plains yourself, but it's probably not better than relic which nobody is currently using.

I think the card from this set with the most promise is Otherworld Atlas. It's an interesting variant of Temple bell which is an effect that I have been wanting more and more of lately (I don't think I would play both of them however). The fact that you can keep stacking charges over a couple of turns then mainphase activate the draw like a mini-jar and go off seems like a very good ability: It combos with voltaic key, mind over matter, clock etc just as well as Temple Bell does, but doesn't give them the opportunities to use the cards each time you activate this eot, unlike temple bell.

I don't know if I like the Alchemist. A summoning sick voltaic key that's free to activate isn't the worst. I'm not sure how it compares to Thousand Year Elixir in this regard.
Some other things to think about that do a similar thing
Dross Scorpion
Magewright's Stone

This deck must have been absurd when you could still play Staff of Domination in it...

mike1987

04-25-2012, 12:35 PM

thanks for the suggestions. Was playing against a Zur, Doran today. Won doran but lost to zur due to his immense number of removal and counters. Realised that sometimes this deck has lack of counterspells. I am currently playing 7. In times of need, i always fail to draw one :mad:

The Big Ragu

04-25-2012, 07:55 PM

How come none of you are running Proteus Staff. Unless I'm missing something, it feels like an auto include.

kombatkiwi

04-25-2012, 09:28 PM

It doesnt do anything that cant be done by spine of ish sah, honestly.
Polynorphing your own myr token into an actual myr isnt really good enough.

The main reason I dont play it is that its only good in very specific situations.
I used to play null brooch but I cut it for the same reason.

Bruedetour

05-01-2012, 03:34 PM

kombatkiwi

05-01-2012, 04:16 PM

Kuma

05-01-2012, 04:35 PM

Actually I've been thinking that repeal and chain of vapor might be the way to go.
They have the upside of being able to ramp your mana if theres nothing that urgently needs bouncing.
I guess hurkyls recall does this too.

I think every version needs some sort of bounce but I dont think theres a clear best option at the moment

You should see what he's been doing to our playgroup with Hurkyl's Recall. With Mycosynth Lattice out it reads "Target player loses the game." Otherwise, it bounces all offending Pithing Needles, Phyrexian Revokers, Spellskites as well as any other artifacts the player has out, setting them back considerably.

It seems to have so much more upside than Repeal and Chain of Vapor

Bruedetour

05-01-2012, 05:16 PM

As soon as i have my cards in my hands tomorrow i will post my list

Bruedetour

05-02-2012, 05:10 PM

Here is my list as promised
http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h336/Bruedetour/2012-05-02_16-37-09_499.jpg
Creatures(19)
Manakin
Milikin
Palladium Myr
Silver Myr
Plague Myr
Alloy Myr
Etherium Sculptor
Junk Diver
Phyrexian Metamorph
Phyrexian Revoker
Myr Retriever
Spellskite
Myr Sire
Duplicant
Karn, Silver Golem
Gilded Drake
Phantasmal Image
Concecrated Sphinx
Trinket Mage

Artifacts(31)
Basalt Monolith
Grim Monolith
Mana Vault
Lotus Petal
Sol Ring
Mox Opal
Gilded Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Mind Stone
Mana Crypt
Mindslaver
Sensei's Divining Top
Memory Jar
Darksteel Forge
Neviyrral's Disk
Planar Portal
Crucible Of Worlds
Myr Turbine
Voltaic Key
Spine of Ish Sah
Pithing Needle
Mycosynth Lattice
Grafdigger's Cage
Tormod's Crypt
Lightning Greaves
Sculpting Steel
Swiftfoot Boots
Rings of Brighthearth
Possessed Portal
Clock of Omens
Oblivion Stone

Enchantment/Planeswalker(4)
Tezzeret the Seeker
Power Artifact
Mind Over Matter
Mystic Remora

Instant/Sorcery(11)
Muddle the Mixture
Misdirection
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Pact of Negation
Hurkyl's Recall
Wipe Away
Mystical Tutor
Intuition
Fabricate
Time Spiral

Lands(35)
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Mishra's Factory
Buried Ruin
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Seat of the Synod
Blinkmoth Nexus
Inkmoth Nexus
Crystal Vein
Ancient Tomb
Academy Ruins
Strip Mine
City of Traitors
Mishra's Workshop
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
18 Island

The Big Ragu

05-02-2012, 05:22 PM

That's a damn fine list. I rather like it, as well as your custom artwork for Arcum.

rxavage

05-02-2012, 10:50 PM

mrjumbo03

05-02-2012, 11:20 PM

Nice list! We're about 10-11 cards different, not counting the lands which basically is personal preference. I do think you have an extra card somewhere because it's exactly 100 without counting Arcum.

Re: Blightsteel Colossus, you don't need it to win. You can't put it into play via Arcum, and it's just a big Bribery target that may even cause you to lose.

rxavage

05-02-2012, 11:27 PM

Bruedetour

05-03-2012, 01:37 AM

Is there a reason why Blightsteel Colossus isn't included? I've been looking for an edh deck to actually play and get into and this one is high on the list, gy/recursion strategies seem to be hated pretty easily so I've lost interest in those.

i dont include big meanies because it is my goal to combo out around turn 3-4 every game but if you are looking for a more interactive list i would suggest cutting P P and add some big fatties as you see fit as posessed portal is not a good time for anyone but yourself

Bruedetour

05-03-2012, 01:41 AM

The Big Ragu

05-03-2012, 03:45 AM

I run Memnarch, Steel Hellkite, and Sundering Titan for shits and giggles, but they're not particularly helpful for locking down the game. That's this deck's primary objective, not establishing aggro dominance.

Blightsteel Colossus has no place in this deck for many different reasons, but it seems odd that somebody would ever use Bribery against someone using Arcum in the first place.

mrjumbo03

05-17-2012, 11:20 PM

Just an update, I think I'll be going +1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Rishadan Port, as soon as I get a foil one, no matter how pretty Rishadan Port is in foil. Initially, I didn't like Cavern because my mindset was taking out an Island for it, and considering the number of U spells we have, U mana is a premium. But removing Port doesn't hurt as much because you can't really deny mana in EDH, plus one of its main uses is essentially to tap 1-2 lands to prevent Arcum being countered, which is what Caverns does in the first place. And you're replacing something that doesn't produce U as well. As an additional plus, you get U mana for Trinket Mage and more importantly, Magus of the Future (UUU is hard to get).

mrjumbo03

06-13-2012, 12:19 PM

Bumping this thread. Do you think Arcum can be competitive using the French Banlist? There's an upcoming 1on1 Tourney here and I'd like to join.

As it stands, you lose the following:
Crucible of Worlds
Intuition
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Mishra's Workshop (I don't run this anyway)
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Strip Mine

*Metalworker is legal though, but Staff is still banned. But I'm not sure if it's even good for the deck considering most stuff are not that hard to cast anyway. Tuck rules are also in effect so Spell Crumple and Hinder are not good.

Suggested replacements would be appreciated as well. I'm not sure if Artificer's Intuition and Trinket Mage are good enough anymore if you remove those cards, specially SDT.

kombatkiwi

06-13-2012, 05:00 PM

mrjumbo03

06-19-2012, 10:14 PM

French banlist just unbanned Intuition so I'm down to 7/9 (Trinket and Artificer) cards that I need to change.

BoPete21

06-24-2012, 11:41 PM

kombatkiwi

07-02-2012, 09:34 PM

Metalwalker and/or Jumbo I know this is a old post, but I was wondering if any of you can give me your opinion and questions or concerns I have for your guys decks. I've been looking at them both and comparing one to the other and come up on the decesion I need a second input. Considering you guys made the list I only felt it to be proper that you guys replied. What about timetwister, transmute artifact, and reshape. I know a brief explanation was given by metalwalker on not running too many 7 draws from the fact of possessed portal, but jumbo said he liked playing time spiral using possessed portal so why not timetwister. I don't know if it was banned at the time of this posting maybe it was like I said "I don't know." Metalwalker also said he didn't like paying the extra mana for transmute and reshape, but it was also mentioned using kuldotha is a steep price but sometimes one tinker is all you need sometimes. I'm also curious about artificer's intuition considering sometimes one tinker is all you need, but its gonna be only for top or a sol ring. I probabally need some more explanation please. Is Solemn Simulacrum working that well for you guys i feel its a little slow and back on artificer's intuition is it really worth it. i'd like a updated list from you guys if you dont mind. I also have not become a fan of petrified field can you explain that. and i think it should be one or the other not both trinket mage or artificer's intuition bc like i stated 3 time thats all it takes is one sometimes. Even Kuldotha feels slow sometimes because i need the three artifacts meaning early game, but thats why Arcum's the general I'm just rambling now. Please respond i'd appreciate the feedback i have no idea what would replace these maybe some more counterspells or something, but I know its kinda hard to get U. Like I said I need another opinion the creator of the decks would be very nice. Sorry if I come off as a newb, but I probably am compared to you guys Help!

I'm not either of the two guys you mentioned but I have built this deck IRL and play a lot of games with it:

Timetwister: I've never felt that I wanted so much card draw. I play TFK and Thoughtcast, I feel like it's adequate. You often only want to exchange a couple of cards, I would play Brainstorm and these and like See beyond before I considered something like Timetwister.

I play a reshape and sometimes it's good, sometimes not. Transmute Artifact is obviously better. I think it's correct to use both considering that all lists play fabricate and these serve a similar purpose.

I don't play Kuldotha Forgemaster

Solemn Simulacrum I enjoy mainly for the card draw, which I why I re-added Faerie Mechanist (which is blue, so it goes with Grand Architect).

Both Trinket Mage and Artificer's Intuition are great because all the best cards in the deck are 1-drop artifacts (or 0, in the case of mana crypt). I'm never disappointed to draw either of these.

Also, what do you guys think of trading post? The last 2 abilities seem pretty decent

mrjumbo03

09-11-2012, 09:43 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=135503&d=1347336282

Might deserve a slot as it deals with multiple opponents by the end game, and a utility bouncer in the beginning.

kombatkiwi

09-12-2012, 12:22 AM

I think I'd rather play Hurykls Recall than this because
-A lot of opposing combos are artifact based so it serves a similar purpose
-You can occasionally gain value from Hurkyls by casting it on yourself if you have a lot of fast mana in play
-The Lattice interaction

Chain of Vapor or Repeal are two other cards I would probably rather play before I considered this one

kombatkiwi

10-06-2012, 02:30 AM

My Current List
Italicized cards are ones that I don't feel completely confident about their inclusion

1 Arcum Dagsson

Sac Food
1 Alloy Myr
1 Guardian Idol
1 Silver Myr
1 Plague Myr
1 Palladium Myr
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Myr Moonvessel
1 Spellskite
1 Junk Diver
1 Myr Retriever
1 Faerie Mechanist

Gotta Go Fast
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Mind Stone
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Cloud Key
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grand Architect

Draw/Tutoring
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Thoughtcast
1 Trinket Mage
1 Fabricate
1 Expedition Map
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Scroll Rack

Permission
1 Force of Will
1 Mana Drain
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mental Misstep

Utility/Combo
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Clock of Omens
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mirran Spy
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Planar Portal
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Possessed Portal
1 Magus of the Future
1 Myr Turbine
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Mindslaver
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Power Artifact
1 Argivian Restoration
1 Gitaxian Probe

Land
15 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Rishadan Port
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel

Reason why certain cards are in Italics

Guardian Idol and Alloy Myr - They're the most expensive accelerator-fodder but I guess they get the job done and there really don't think that there's a viable alternative to these.

Myr Moonvessel - A 1 or 0 cmc artifact creature is needed for the purposes of Artificer's Intuition. However, I'm not sure if it's correct to play this or something like Shield Sphere or Ornithopter. The Myr is almost strictly better if you have an Etherium Sculptor Effect in play, and also has the benefit of being able to cast it early on and accelerate you later. Ornithopter is better in situations where you have no mana open but want a guy to tinker out for something else. I think this is rare enough that the Moonvessel is probably better.

Spellskite - It's kind of a meta call because sometimes it just doesn't do anything. I think it's still probably fine in that even if it's not relevant in the matchup you can still just tinker it away for something else.

TFK and Thoughtcast - These cards are fine but not great. I'm not sure whether it's worth having these effects available or if I should simply include more utility cards like graveyard hate or Pithing Needle.

Mystical Tutor - Having the card go to the top of the library is very annoying. It's good when it's good but it's often a do-nothing. It doesn't often feel very good to cast but I struggle to cut it because in theory it should be a strong card.

Nevs Disk, Darksteel Forge, Mycosynth Lattice - Funnily enough, Mycosynth Lattice wasn't even on the list. I built this up in a rush on cockatrice from memory of what my current real-life list was, and while I do have Lattice in the paper version, It wasn't something that I remembered to include in the online list. I did play several games with this on cockatrice and never noticed its absence. As stated in a previous post, I believe that this combo is a pointless sacred cow of the deck, a holdover of a previous version when it was the main win condition. The deck has significantly evolved from that point and it's painful to draw 4, 6, and 9 cmc artifacts that very rarely do anything in most games. I really want to cut these cards but I also want feedback from people who have experience with the deck as to why they do or don't think that it would be a good idea.

Argivian Restoration - This is only in italics because I haven't played with the card enough to have a strong opinion of it.

Anyway that's my list! If there's a card that you think is staple that I don't have here or there's a non-italicized card and you're wondering why I think it's that great, I welcome your feedback.

Cards I am considering adding to the deck/trying out
Riddlesmith/Vedalken Archmage
Pithing Needle
Codex Shredder
Graveyard Hate
Some kind of Bounce spell (Repeal or Chain or Rift or Hurkyls)
Runed Servitor
Myr Sire
Semblance Anvil
Otherworld Atlas
Dross Scorpion

Hunding Gjornersen

10-09-2012, 06:34 AM

Scuttlemut is strictly better than Alloy Myr. Changing creature colors isn't amazing or anything, but having the option is a little bit better than not having the option.

kombatkiwi

10-09-2012, 09:29 AM

Scuttlemut is strictly better than Alloy Myr. Changing creature colors isn't amazing or anything, but having the option is a little bit better than not having the option.

This has been brought up in previous posts (by me :P) and everybody unanimously agreed that the potential to save Arcum from doom blade was not worth the downside of scuttlemutt's crappy artwork.

Werewolf

10-15-2012, 02:05 AM

This combo [top/basalt/rings] wins the fastest and is the safest way to win (draw your deck, play your deck out with infinite colorless mana). It requires 2 artifact creature fodder, Arcum to survive for 2 turns. If any of this condition fails, the combo will not be completed. You usually tutor for Rings instead of Top/Basalt because Rings by itself is busted with the rest of the deck. Sometimes I tutor out Basalt first depending on whether I can keep Arcum for another turn, or if I have something in my hand that I can play out that will screw my opponents over.

first post lol. this question was bugging me so much that i felt inspired to make an account here and ask it.

doesn't this actually take 3 artifact creature fodder? copying arcum's ability with rings doesnt exempt you from sacrificing another artifact creature i don't think. the sacrificing, it's part of the effect, not the cost (because it comes after the colon...otherwise it would be written "{T}, target artifact creature's controller sacs it: [cheat effect]" and then the rings would only copy the cheat effect and not the sac part).

or do i have it wrong?

kombatkiwi

10-17-2012, 12:32 AM

first post lol. this question was bugging me so much that i felt inspired to make an account here and ask it.

doesn't this actually take 3 artifact creature fodder? copying arcum's ability with rings doesnt exempt you from sacrificing another artifact creature i don't think. the sacrificing, it's part of the effect, not the cost (because it comes after the colon...otherwise it would be written "{T}, target artifact creature's controller sacs it: [cheat effect]" and then the rings would only copy the cheat effect and not the sac part).

or do i have it wrong?

You're correct, I have always known this
It might be a mistake made by the person who wrote that, or they might just mean that if you untap with rings and 2 dudes you win immediately

fuga

10-21-2012, 07:54 PM

Hi! What do you think about ubamask in this deck?

kombatkiwi

10-23-2012, 12:23 PM

Hi! What do you think about ubamask in this deck?

Not very good
99% of the time if you want that effect you have possessed portal. It's not the worst card if you draw it but against a significant number of top decks it is largely ineffectual, as most of them achieve wins either by tutoring for what they need, or by drawing their entire deck in one turn and killing you, and in both of these cases uba mask does nothing.

fuga

10-28-2012, 08:38 PM

Thank you for your answer :)

kombatkiwi

01-19-2013, 02:19 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138227&d=1356931036

notbad.jpg

Although for the cost i reckon it should work with mana abilities
Maybe it's a templating/rules issue

mrjumbo03

01-23-2013, 02:15 PM

Another uneventful set for Arcum. Only possible addition I could think of is Thespian's Stage.

kombatkiwi

01-24-2013, 04:07 AM

Another uneventful set for Arcum. Only possible addition I could think of is Thespian's Stage.

Do you not think Bracers is playable?

Offler

01-24-2013, 09:33 AM

Absolutely YES.

Dont forget it works with untapping abilities like Aphetto alchemist has. Infinite combo with alchemist and bracers can be re-used with Arcum when you have no artifact to produce infinite mana, or whatever. Question is how much it fits in your deck. In my Teferi it fits perfectly.

kombatkiwi

04-22-2013, 02:59 AM

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/156.jpg
"Hey guys I know u missed me but now I'm back to spice up your Power Artifact / Rings of Brighthearth / Basalt Monolith love triangle"

Jivanmukta

04-22-2013, 03:50 AM

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/156.jpg
"Hey guys I know u missed me but now I'm back to spice up your Power Artifact / Rings of Brighthearth / Basalt Monolith love triangle"

Oh hi you sexy sexy card.

mrjumbo03

04-23-2013, 11:49 AM

Do we even need it? During the combo turn, SDT will allow us to do the same thing, and it's not bad on it's own.

kombatkiwi

04-24-2013, 05:53 AM

Do we even need it? During the combo turn, SDT will allow us to do the same thing, and it's not bad on it's own.

I still think it's worth making space for because:
-If you make infi mana another way (Power Artifact) it lets you win while tutoring for fewer cards
-The '3: Untap dude' mode is fine if you naturally draw this card

There are a bunch of cards the deck doesn't 'need'
I'm still leaning towards cutting the Disk/Forge/Lattice package
But I think it's worth making a slot to put staff back in

mrjumbo03

04-29-2013, 12:29 PM

Hmm. After looking at my list, I'd probably put the Staff over Time Spiral as I have only used that card once profitably or Artificer's Intuition. Hope they unban Metalworker soon to go along the Staff!:laugh:

Jessenator

04-30-2013, 12:12 PM

Does anyone have an updated list for this general after Staff's unbanning?

kombatkiwi

06-16-2013, 03:50 AM

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
13 Snow-Covered Island
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Seat of the Synod
1 City of Traitors
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Buried Ruin
1 Academy Ruins
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tolaria West
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Scorched Ruins

// Creatures
1 Myr Moonvessel
1 Arcum Dagsson
1 Dross Scorpion
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manakin
1 Plague Myr
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Trinket Mage
1 Junk Diver
1 Silver Myr
1 Palladium Myr
1 Millikin
1 Myr Retriever
1 Etherium Sculptor

// Spells
1 Power Artifact
1 Skullclamp
1 Semblance Anvil
1 Mental Misstep
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Possessed Portal
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Mindslaver
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Planar Portal
1 Myr Turbine
1 Memory Jar
1 Pact of Negation
1 Mana Vault
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mind Stone
1 Guardian Idol
1 Reshape
1 Sol Ring
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Opal
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Lotus Petal
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Clock of Omens
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Cloud Key
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Intuition
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Fabricate
1 Scroll Rack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Arcum Dagsson

Semblance Anvil is just a random idea I had
You can cut it for Staff now that it's unbanned
I have no idea why I wasn't playing skullclamp before
Edit: Oops I apparently have a random Arcum listed in the maindeck I guess cut that for staff then

FTW

06-16-2013, 08:35 PM

I'm confused about the lack of

Lightning Greaves
Thousand-Year Elixir
Swiftfoot Boots

How on earth does Arcum survive to tap?

Here's what I'm running. Any recommendations?

//Commander: 1
Arcum Dagsson

//Artifact Creatures: 17
Blinkmoth Nexus
Inkmoth Nexus
Mishra's Factory
Myr Moonvessel
Manakin
Plague Myr
Guardian Idol
Silver Myr
Spellskite
Phyrexian Revoker
Etherium Sculptor
Myr Retriever
Perilous Myr
Junk Diver
Palladium Myr
Solemn Simulacrum
Lodestone Golem
Kuldotha Forgemaster

//Mana Sources: 10
Mox Diamond
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus

//Haste: 4
Thousand-Year Elixir
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots
Hall of the Bandit Lord

//Lands: 33 (plus others)
Mishra's Workshop
Seat of the Synod
Darksteel Citadel
Ancient Tomb
Crystal Vein
City of Traitors
Cavern of Souls
Phyrexia's Core
Academy Ruins
Buried Ruin
Tolaria West
Thespian's Stage
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
18 Island

//Search/Draw: 14
Sensei's Divining Top
Scroll Rack
Expedition Map
Muddle the Mixture
Transmute Artifact
Reshape
Artificer's Intuition
Trinket Mage
Fabricate
Intuition
Thirst for Knowledge
Thoughtcast
Tezzeret the Seeker
Memory Jar

//Spells: 21
Defense Grid
Myr Turbine
Darksteel Forge
Mycosynth Lattice
Nevinyrall's Disk
Oblivion Stone
All is Dust
Mindslaver
Spine of Ish Sash
Staff of Domination
Power Artifact
Rings of Brighthearth
Planar Portal
Crucible of Worlds
Clock of Omens
Sculpting Steel
Phyrexian Metamorph
Argivian Restoration
Voltaic Key
Skullclamp
Mind Over Matter

Thoughts?

kombatkiwi

06-16-2013, 10:54 PM

My list did have Greaves, but I do admit that compared to you my deck is built almost full glass-cannon mode (even though overall there is only about 10 cards difference) because my deck is mostly for trolling the really soft meta at my store and I don't need so many anti-hate cards.

I also realise that my list was based mostly on the deck that I actually own and therefore I forgot to put Mana Drain in it

If I were to include more resilience to spot removal it would be more in the form of cards like Spell Pierce or Mizzium Skin instead of additional boots: Elixir is maybe okay but 3 mana earlygame is a lot so by spending a turn casting the elixir you're missing the turn that you could have used to cast Arcum making the haste semi-irrelevant (you obviously still get the chance to throw arcum into play then hastily activate it before it gets bolted or whatever but this hardly ever happens to me, YMMV)

I disagree completely with Lodestone Golem, the card just makes no sense in this deck. It's not that the ability is bad for us (in fact it's the opposite, it's almost one-sided in our favour) it's just that you want all the artifact creatures to provide some sort of lasting value before/when they die. Cards like Spellskite and Revoker don't mesh with this argument but they only cost 2 mana. When you're on a very proactive gameplan, as you always want to be, Alpha Myr is a lot better than Millenial Gargoyle.

I like the idea of Perilous Myr but I feel like it's a bit of a meta call as it's situationally a do-nothing (also depends on how many players are in your average game).

I don't know if muddle is good enough: I really hated Mystical Tutor every time I drew it, muddle is just a straight up protection spell which is often what mystical tutor was used for and it can also find boots, but it just seems waaaay too slow.

All is Dust seems like overkill when you're already playing Disk and Stone, Argivian Restoration was always too situational and expensive for me

Defense Grid is interesting but in games where you need it as an anti-counterpell card you want to have it in play early, before your arcum, which is difficult to do. Cards like Spellskite and Revoker are also situationally bad in this sense but you can at least tinker them away in matchups where they don't do anything.

I used to play TFK and Thoughtcast they are solid cards - what you see is what you get basically. I cut them for some more spicy artifacts just to see how they go but I would consider adding the blue spells back in if it doesn't pan out.

With your more defensive bent I'm surprised to see that you aren't playing pact of negation. I'd like to know what are the decks you normally play against, how consistently you manage to win, etc. I've definitely started to lean toward the philosopy of "Play enough fast mana and just blast through the hate" so maybe I need a reality check.

FTW

06-17-2013, 12:17 AM

Hmm. I like my decks to function when my commander is not around, which is why there are cards like Lodestone Golem, Defense Grid and All is Dust to slow things down while I can't just tinker through my whole deck. That slows down opponents and gives me time to recast him or get out more creatures to sacrifice. I don't know what other peoples' EDH metas are like. Everyone playing "danger of cool things" and playing solitaire trying to assemble their own awesomeness first? That could be pretty fun too. But our format is very interactive. Stuff dies. People play a lot of interactive cards and abilities. Mass removal, 2-for-1 spot removal, engines that interact with boardstates, etc.

This means that on T0, when everyone sees you are playing a broken combo-engine general (Arcum, Jhoira, etc.) instead of a slower incremental general, someone is probably saving some way to stop your linear gameplan from going off.

In particular there's a huge difference between T4: Elixir/Greaves/Boots, T5: Arcum+activate and T4: Arcum, T5: Activate. Not just the random Lightning Bolts. Letting Arcum sit around leaves him wide open to Wraths, Flametongue Kavu-type creatures and other sorcery speed removal. Or worse. Arcum eating Oblation is seriously bad news, since you have pretty much no ways to ever find him again.... So IMO I'd rather wait the turn and have him go off immediately.

Mana Drain, Mizzium Skin and Pact are sweet. I left them out due to anti synergy with Defense Grid, but Defense Grid can probably go. Restoration can probably go too. It's mostly there if someone kills a combo piece before Forge is out.

Muddle the Mixture is amazing... it Transmutes into either Grim Monolith or Power Artifact.

kombatkiwi

06-17-2013, 01:58 AM

But it shouldn't even be turn 4 arcum turn 5 activate
With the amount large amount of acceleration I can reliably have arcum on turn 3 or even 2, which is so fast that it blanks a lot of removal anyway (especially the mass and 2-for-1 kind, which is usually fairly expensive)

Yeah I agree with you on Argivian (Thats why you have backup combos and Diver/Retriever/Ruin/Ruins) but I didn't see the dis-synergy between your own counterspells and defense grid.
The defense grid plan also gets a lot better when you're maxing on haste enablers
I'll have to give that card a try I guess

EDIT
Planar portal might be on the chopping block:

Ring of Three Wishes (5) (M14)
Comes into play with 3 Wish counters
{5}{T}, Remove a wish counter: search your deck for a card and add it to hand

But I'm not sure I want to play this card either

I think planar portal should probably just be cut. I basically never hardcast it from hand because 6 is really expensive on its own, not to mention 6 mana for every search. It's useful in the sense that if your top somehow gets removed or if you assemble infinite mana with power artifact instead of rings it lets you chain-tutor into a win but this doesn't seem to come up much. This might be because I still don't have a power artifact IRL yet but they just unbanned staff of domination which serves a very similar purpose to planar portal in this regard anyway. Thoughts?

jake556

08-26-2013, 04:51 PM

I didn't see this in the OP but Etherium Sculptor + SDT + Magus of the Future/Future Sight, is also Infinite draw.

FTW

08-26-2013, 09:09 PM

I didn't see this in the OP but Etherium Sculptor + SDT + Magus of the Future/Future Sight, is also Infinite draw.

True. I opted not to run Futures because I find UUU very difficult to get with this deck, compared to other blue-artifact decks like Azami or Sharuum. There are also no ways to find it, since IT would be your draw engine to dig through your deck, and its redundant if you already assemble another engine. Staff just does a similar thing only its easier to set up. If I spend UUU I want to win the game, not durdle around. Mind Over Matter does that (you immediately get to discard and reuse Arcum). So not even USZ in here (to win with infinite mana) because it's hard to find and the triple blue to cast. Staff being unbanned solves a lot of that IMO.

@kombatkiwi
I should mention I play this more like a Prison deck with combo finish than a straight combo deck, not at all like a Glass Cannon, which may explain some of our different card preferences. I typically cast Arcum with protection and then don't activate him until the last EOT so I get better information about what tools I need to respond to the board. This allows me to tutor Darksteel Forge in response to removal, or O-Stone if the board gets out of hand, Myr Turbine if my other creatures get killed and I need fodder, etc. I typically play control-style until I can Forge+Lattice+Disk away everyone's permanents,and then, if people don't quit, I can tutor out the infinite combo to win the game quickly. Depending on the starting hand I might just go straight fast combo, but a lot of the time I'll opt to play reactive.

Ring of Three Wishes looks decent

Planar Portal is essentially my way to convert an Arcum activation into Power Artifact so I don't have to durdle around drawing cards and can just get my infinite mana now. Sometimes it gets protection or an answer too. It's basically both my "Hail Mary" button and my "I combo out now" button but isn't cast/tutored for regularly.

Re: 2-for-1 removal not being online before turn 4... the 3-color control decks can run as much ramp as we do... (for different reasons... because they're mana hungry in general, not to go off early). Wrath/Chain Reaction/Barter in Blood/etc is all possible on turn 2-3 just as easily as we can cheat out Arcum early. And Oblation/Chaos Warp/Hinder can be online turn 2. Maybe you can just blast through a soft/slow meta over there? I usually need to be careful. I think it just fits my play style better too.

mrjumbo03

05-22-2014, 12:41 PM

Necro! This dude might be playable.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/58/167/635363106090878663.jpeg

kombatkiwi

05-23-2014, 07:06 AM

Necro! This dude might be playable.

I don't know if I would.

As a general it's just a worse Arcum and as a card to put in Arcum I don't think it's worth a slot. It might be okay as a sort of backup Arcum if your meta is really slow with a lot of removal.
I took my Arcum deck apart though. I found it was too good for 'fun' games but in an environment with other people that are really trying to win it just isn't quite good enough.

sipes1946

05-29-2014, 12:47 AM

I don't know if I would.

As a general it's just a worse Arcum and as a card to put in Arcum I don't think it's worth a slot. It might be okay as a sort of backup Arcum if your meta is really slow with a lot of removal.
I took my Arcum deck apart though. I found it was too good for 'fun' games but in an environment with other people that are really trying to win it just isn't quite good enough.

I've found that if I durdle I can survive as long as I like and if I play I can nearly always win.

mrjumbo03

05-29-2014, 11:01 AM

@sipes1946, Wanna discuss your list?

mrjumbo03

05-30-2014, 01:05 PM

Sorry for the double post but just to kickstart the discussion here.

Thinking of adding Muzzio to my list.

For reference:

[1 GENERAL]
1 Arcum Dagsson

[35 LANDS]
13 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Tolaria West
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Saprazzan Skerry
1 Crystal Vein

[34 ARTIFACTS]
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Guardian Idol
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Voltaic Key
1 Clock of Omens
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Expedition Map
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Staff of Domination
1 Memory Jar
1 Myr Turbine
1 Planar Portal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Null Brooch
1 Possessed Portal
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinryal's Disk
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[16 CREATURES]
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Plague Myr
1 Silver Myr
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Palladium Myr
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Myr Retriever
1 Junk Diver
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Aphetto Alchemist
1 Trinket Mage

[14 NON-ARTIFACT]
1 Pact of Negation
1 Swan Song
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mana Drain
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Fabricate
1 Intuition
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Power Artifact
1 Mind over Matter
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Possible cuts: Mind Over Matter (UUUU is just hard, reason why I cut the Futuresight/Magus of FS), Null Brooch, Sculpting Steel
Possible additions: Muzzio, Thousand-Year Elixir, Myr Moonvessel, Torpor Orb

Plus I think I need more U spells to fuel FoW and MisD (I'm currently at 18).

sipes1946

05-30-2014, 01:31 PM

@sipes1946, Wanna discuss your list?

sure--I'll post it here when I have more time later today :)

I'd love to get some feedback from other Arcum players.

sipes1946

06-13-2014, 01:17 PM

sorry for the delay--I forgot I said I would post my list:

Commander

1x Arcum Dagsson

Artifact (30)

1x Basalt Monolith
1x Caged Sun
1x Clock of Omens
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Darksteel Forge
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Myr Turbine
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
1x Planar Portal
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sculpting Steel
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Static Orb
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Trading Post
1x Unwinding Clock
1x Vedalken Orrery
1x Voltaic Key

Land (32)

1x Academy Ruins
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Flooded Strand
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mishra's Workshop
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Seat of the Synod
11x Snow-Covered Island
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolaria West
1x Vesuva
1x Wasteland

Sorcery (3)

1x All Is Dust
1x Fabricate
1x Transmute Artifact

Enchantment (2)

1x Copy Artifact
1x Power Artifact

Planeswalker (2)

1x Karn Liberated
1x Tezzeret the Seeker

Creature (19)

1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Duplicant
1x Junk Diver
1x Karn, Silver Golem
1x Manakin
1x Master Transmuter
1x Millikin
1x Muzzio, Visionary Architect
1x Myr Retriever
1x Palladium Myr
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Scarecrone
1x Silver Myr
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spellskite
1x Treasure Mage
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Instant (11)

1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Capsize
1x Counterspell
1x Cryptic Command
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Forbid
1x Force of Will
1x Mana Drain
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Spell Crumple

mrjumbo03

06-28-2014, 01:09 AM

http://i.imgur.com/FJjfYL1.png

Possible addition, but personally, unlikely for me.

sipes1946

06-28-2014, 01:54 AM

unlikely for me either...

mrjumbo03

09-12-2014, 02:11 PM

Nothing from Khans.

BUT we do get Metalworker as it gets unbanned, finally!

kombatkiwi

02-09-2015, 11:37 PM

Rebuilt this deck again

Arcum Dagsson

--- Artifact Creatures ---
Myr Moonvessel
Phyrexian Revoker
Spellskite
Silver Myr
Plague Myr
Manakin
Millikin
Etherium Sculptor
Myr Retriever
Junk Diver
Metalworker
Palladium Myr
Lodestone Golem
Filigree Sages
Phyrexian Metamorph
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Steel Hellkite

--- Noncreature Artifacts ---
Mana Crypt
Mox Opal
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Voltaic Key
Skullclamp
Pithing Needle
Sensei's Divining Top
Expedition Map
Genesis Chamber
Lightning Greaves
Scroll Rack
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Rings of Brighthearth
Staff of Domination
Crucible of Worlds
Thousand-Year Elixir
Sculpting Steel
Thran Dynamo
Nevinyrral's Disk
Gilded Lotus
Myr Turbine
Ring of Three Wishes
Memory Jar
Mycosynth Lattice
Mindslaver
Spine of Ish Sah
Possessed Portal
Darksteel Forge

--- Other Nonland Permanents ---
Copy Artifact
Power Artifact
Sage of Lat-Nam
Artificer's Intuition
Trinket Mage
Tezzeret the Seeker

--- Instants ---
Pact of Negation
Swan Song
Mana Drain
Thirst for Knowledge
Intuition
Force of Will
Misdirection

--- Sorceries ---
Reshape
Transmute Artifact
Fabricate
Thoughtcast

--- Lands ---
Mishra's Workshop
Mishra's Factory
Inkmoth Nexus
Blinkmoth Nexus
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Tolaria West
Seat of the Synod
Darksteel Citadel
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Phyrexia's Core
Buried Ruin
Academy Ruins
Misty Rainforest
Scalding Tarn
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Cavern of Souls
13 Island

Some thoughts

- I think that Caged Sun / Gauntlet of Power / Extraplanar Lens are not good in decks with no ramp and such a small number of basics. The way that this deck (and most other Arcum decks) are built is that there are not a super high amount of 6+ drops and normally no mana sinks, there also aren't a very high number of card advantage spells so once you've curved up to your 6 drop you probably won't have anything to spend that extra mana on. This would be the case even if your manabase was all Islands but often you are only going to have 2-3 in play which means you're paying a huge premium for what is basically Gilded Lotus 2-3 or a coloured Worn Powerstone.

- I'm moving away from the 'glass cannon' build that I have posted previously, because in any games where that would work a slower win would also likely be successful, and this way you don't get blown out by counterspells and instant speed removal.

- A reflection of this change is the non-inclusion of Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Lion's Eye Diamond, because you don't want to be exchanging cards for mana when facing an interactive opponent(s).

- Sage of Lat-Nam is something I want to try as a cheap repeatable source of card advantage. There are of course a bunch of Jalum Tome effects available but most of them are too expensive. This card works well with Junk Diver, Myr Retriever, Artifact (Man)Land + Crucible, Genesis Chamber, Myr Turbine, and Spine of Ish Sah. I don't think that this deck wants to go further on board the Goblin-Welder-Value-Train (with more stuff like Ichor Wellspring, Chromatic Star, Krark-Clan Ironworks) but it could be a reasonable option to make the deck more midrangey.

- I definitely think the deck needs a 1-drop artifact creature to find with Trinket Mage / Artificer's Intuition. There are various Pros and Cons for playing either Moonvessel/Memnite/Ornithopter/Shield Sphere/Heap Doll but I think you should play 1 of them. If you didn't want to play Trinket Mage or Artificer's Intuition then I wouldn't fault you for not playing an 0-1 drop but I think those cards are pretty good. (If someone can come up with a good use for Phyrexian Dreadnought that would be pretty cool, maybe if you're playing Torpor Orb).

- I agree with the Mind over Matter cut a few posts back, because it's difficult to cast and very win-more. I sadly shaved the Clock of Omens for the same reason, while it's a very fun card to use I just feel that it's probably overkill in most situations.

- Ring of Three Wishes over Planar Portal because I think that costing less mana is going to be relevant more often than having to search for 4+ cards.

Marginal cards:
- I put Filigree Sages in as another way to combo with Power Artifact, it works well with a few other things too (the fact that it's blue is kind of nice because as mentioned previously, trying to maintain a blue count for Force and Misdirection is surprisingly hard). You can always just tinker it away when you don't need it, but there is a lot of competition from other cards for that role (Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum/Lore Broker/Master Transmuter/Duplicant/Karn) and for what it does it's quite expensive.
- Genesis Chamber is something to try, it's at least 1 Myr when Arcum hits the table and can be more depending on what else you cast, your opponents hopefully won't be able to make much use of any tokens that they get. Other options for a similar effect would be Myr Sire and Epochrasite.
- Intuition has been underwhelming in the past but it's great sometimes.
- Playing a bunch of copy-artifact effects definitely has diminishing returns, so do the tutors (Transmute/Reshape/Fabricate/TrinketMage), but it's hard to cut these because they're so flexible.
- Thoughtcast is just Thoughtcast, it's rarely bad but never exciting either.
- I don't have any experience playing Lodestone Golem in the deck but it seems fine

Cards I have considered or would consider
-Spheres (The of-resistance kind, possibly other vintage-playable shop pieces like Tangle Wire and Smokestack)
-Orbs
-The artifact creatures previously mentioned as well as Dross Scorpion and Skill Borrower (there are plenty of spicy artifact creatures all the way up the curve but most of them are various degrees of bad: Shimmer Myr, Myr Welder, Wurmcoil, Precursor Golem, Runed Servitor, Perilous Myr, Toymaker, Esperzoa, Myr Propagator, Neurok/Wizard Replica, Scarecrone, Masticores, Summoner's Egg / Clone Shell, Voltaic Construct, Sharding Sphinx, Triskelion, Memnarch, Platinum Angel / Emperion)
-More "go big" combo stuff like Mirrorworks, Clock of Omens, Knowledge Pool, Blightsteel Colossus (Unlikely)
-More disruption
-More card draw (FoF, Brainstorm)
-Chief Engineer / Grand Architect
-A piece of graveyard hate
-The 2 new 'Ingot with upside' (Commander's Sphere / Unstable Obelisk)
-Coercive Portal

mrjumbo03

06-30-2015, 03:37 PM

kombatkiwi

07-03-2015, 06:42 PM

Necro!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/72/30/200/283/635712663973355788.jpeg

This one is going in for sure. It's basically an improved Myr Sire because it is tutorable by Trinket Mage, and for those who still run Artificer's Intuition. It also scales with more mana, plus it can grow itself to give more minions. Including this card also allows me to drop Myr Moonvessel as we finally get a tutorable fodder (costing 1 or less). Myr Moonvessel was just an okay card for me and I ran it just because of the added consistency of being able to tutor for fodder when I needed one.

I can pretty much agree with this.
Occasionally you want the Ornithopter/Moonvessel because you just need a dork and you're constrained on mana (or you want a dork from a Tezzeret minus) but that doesn't happen very often. The fact that it's a Myr sire that can chronomaton itself into more tokens and also can be searched as a trinket is really good.

Thopter Spy Network is another card from this set that I could potentially include. There is also the new Gargoyle Castle which still costs 5 to activate but makes 2 tokens instead of 1.

kombatkiwi

07-19-2015, 07:20 PM

Just won an insane game against Damia:
- He casts Damia.
- I untap crack Memory Jar into hardcast Possessed Portal: I choose both players can discard a free Memory Jar card. He now has 0 in hand, I have Palladium Myr and Artificer's Intuition.
- He swings with Damia and Pings me with Ugin (I have all colourless permanents and with Portal in play and him on 0 cards the ultimate doesn't do anything either).
- We both sac something irrelevant.
- I untap cast Artificer's Intuition (only 1 blue source in play), crack buried ruin for Junk Diver and cast it. End of turn sac junk diver return Kuldotha Forgemaster.
- He attacks, and pings me again, choosing not to exile the Artificer's Intuition with Ugin. I sac Voltaic Key and he sacs a land.
- I untap and activate Artificer's Intuition, discarding Palladium Myr and searching for new MVP Hangarback Walker. I tap out to cast it for X = 3. He asks what it does (we're playing on cockatrice and he obviously hasn't updated his sets yet).
- He concedes

Lost the next one but in the 3rd I had the utter nuts with:
Turn 1 Island + Mana Vault
Turn 2 Blinkmoth into Sol Ring into Greaves into Arcum, cast Mox Opal activate Blinkmoth GG

Palladium Myr feels a bit slow now, at 3 mana it's clearly the worst dork (especially now it can be compared to Metalworker, jesus that card is absurd)
In these games there were situations where I wanted an AEther Spellbomb but everything else seemed okay.

mrjumbo03

01-07-2016, 01:01 AM

It's nothing exciting but will probably make it in.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/81/779/200/283/635876987991159319.png

kombatkiwi

01-08-2016, 01:56 AM

It's nothing exciting but will probably make it in.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/81/779/200/283/635876987991159319.png

Strictly worse manakin?!?!?! What even is power creep?

But yeah, I'm definitely adding this card.

mrjumbo03

01-13-2016, 12:30 AM

kombatkiwi

01-14-2016, 07:20 AM

I had some free time and decided to look over my Arcum list again. For those running both Force of Will and Misdirection, what's the best U count for the deck? I'm currently at 19 (including the 2 spells) and I'm debating if I should just drop the pitch spells and just run Counterspell and Negate in their place instead.

@Kombatkiwi, your last list had 20 U spells, including both pitch spells. Do you find this enough?

In the past I have been very unhappy with Force of Will for this reason, and I don't think that it's correct to run it or Misdirection.

Edit: Currently the only counterspell I am playing is Mana Drain and my list has gone back to be more in line with the stax-ish plan of older lists.

Less instants, more Defense Grid. I have also been quite impressed with Uba Mask as part of this plan.

Edit:
From my previous list, I am now of the opinion that Power Artifact, Staff of Domination, and Filigree Sages are all awful cards. Putting a bunch of narrow combo cards in your deck is not the way to win a game.

Edit:
Sea Gate Wreckage is really good.
With the new rule change you can now cast EE for a number greater than 1 if you have e.g. City of Brass, but I'm not sure if this is really strong enough. (The payoff on Etched Oracle seems pretty high as well but that would be going REALLY deep).

kombatkiwi

09-03-2016, 02:42 AM

New artifact themed block? Woop

The new land is definitely an auto include:
Inventor's Fair
Legendary Land
Metalcraft - At the beginning of your upkeep, gain 1 life
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool
Metalcraft - 4,{T}, sac; search your deck for an artifact and add it to your hand

A card that I think might be worth testing is:
Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
Legendary Artifact - Vehicle (5)
Flying
Whenever ~ ETB or attacks deal 3 damage to target creature or PW
Crew 3 (Tap creatures with total power 3 or more to turn it into a 6/5 creature until eot)

In a way it's like a 5 mana Inferno Titan that Arcum can both find and tinker away. I think that card would definitely be playable. The issue is of course not having 3 power on the battlefield can be a fairly common situation, in which case this is basically a bad version of Meteorite.
You can play March of the Machines to have it be 'on' all the time but that's too cute to really be any good.

Saheeli's Artistry
Sorcery (4UU)
Choose 1 or both
-Make a token copy of target artifact
-Make a token copy of target creature, and the token is also an artifact

The upside on this card is very high and 6 mana is the 'market rate' for a Metamorph + Sculpting Steel but I'm not sure if the card advantage makes up for having to pay 6 mana all in one go

Last one for now

Aetherworks Marvel
Legendary Artifact (4)
Whenever a permanent you control dies, you get an energy counter
{T}, Pay 6 energy counters: Look at the top 6 cards of your library and cast one of them without paying its mana cost. Put the rest on the bottom at random.

The payoff is quite high if you can get it to work, but there is a high degree of luck involved, sacrificing 6 permanents is pretty difficult, and there are many other 'value' cards in the 4-drop slot that many people are already not playing and are likely much better than this (Solemn, Smokestack etc).

kirkusjones

09-26-2016, 10:35 AM

Anyone have a more up to date list? I'm trying to prove point to a moron who thinks Tolarian Academy should be unbanned in EDH.

kombatkiwi

11-01-2016, 11:22 AM

The deck hasn't changed much

1 Arcum Dagsson

1 Trinket Mage
1 Silver Myr
1 Plague Myr
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Junk Diver
1 Myr Retriever
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Metalworker
1 Hedron Crawler

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Memory Jar
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mox Opal
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Possessed Portal
1 Myr Turbine
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Expedition Map
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Skullclamp
1 Winter Orb
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Defense Grid
1 Tangle Wire

1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Copy Artifact

1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Transmute Artifact
1 Fabricate
1 Reshape

1 Mana Drain

11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexia's Core
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Crystal Vein
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Inventors' Fair

Before Kaladesh I felt that the above cards are 'locked in', they are clearly great and I don't want to cut them. (Inventors' Fair sneaks in as an auto include). This gives 11 open slots.

1. Whenever functional reprints of a card you are already playing are released it's often presents an interesting dilemma. If you decide that you don't want to play 2 copies of a certain effect are you sure that the first copy was good enough? In this case Workshop Assistant is the second Junk Diver (which is already the second Myr Retriever). In this case I do think you want to play all three because there is a positive interaction when you draw them in multiples (they can start looping each other back from the graveyard).

2. Guardian Idol is the worst 'Myr' but it's still good enough in my opinion.

3. I have been trying Null Rod lately which sounds like the dumbest thing ever but Sol Ring and Crypt really define the whole format, having an answer in games when they have them and you don't is significant. It also gives you access to the only (that I am aware of) 2-card game-ending Arcum combo (Null Rod + Lattice). The problem is that the combo isn't viable if you are behind on board (Arcum can win games through combat but your opponent(s) can't have anything more than a 1/1) so this card might just be not good enough.

4. Mindslaver randomly wins games, it's certainly castable but it does often suck when you draw it and I wouldn't fault you for not playing it.

5. Tormod's Crypt - I have never played this card in the past but I have often wanted a piece of GY hate and I think the 0 mana is relevant in spots where you are trying to tutor for it with Artificer's Intuition / Trinket Mage / Reshape etc

6. I'm still a fan of Smokestack, the biggest criticism of this card is that it is too slow, which is fair, but you can manage the downside much better than most other decks can and it combos well with the cards that you already want to be using to slow the game down (Orbs/Spheres).

The 5 remaining cards I'm not too sure on, they could be any of:
Thopter Spy Network
Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
Steel Hellkite
Master Transmuter
Perilous Myr
Serrated Biskelion
Palladium Myr
AEther Spellbomb
Staff of Nin
Sage of Lat-Nam
Duplicant
Karn Silver Golem
Everflowing Chalice
Mind Stone
Clock of Omens
Thran Dynamo
Dross Scorpion
Thoughtcast
Vedalken Engineer
Foundry Inspector
Metalwork Colossus
Genesis Chamber
Null Brooch
Pact of Negation
Solemn Simulacrum
Faerie Mechanist

Some of these suggestions are obviously more 'sensible' than others (ie. the floor on a Thoughtcast or a Spellbomb is much higher than something like Dross Scorption or Clock of Omens but they don't have the same explosive potential).

I would NOT play
- Sphere of the Suns/Extraplanar Lens/Gauntlet of Power/Gilded Lotus
- Power Artifact / Staff of Domination / Filigree Sages
- Mystical Tutor / Misdirection / Intuition / Force
- Mox Diamond / Lotus Petal / LED
- Planar Portal / Ring of 3 Wishes
- Blightsteel Colossus
- Swiftfoot Boots
- Ensnaring Bridge
- Vedalken Shackles (Great card but you don't have enough islands).

The new Boompile is actually pretty interesting. It has the same effect as disk (also kills PWs I guess) but comes in untapped, so you get 2 chances to activate the effect when disk would give you 1. Looking at it that way it only has a failure rate of 25% rather than 50%. If disk came into play untapped I probably wouldn't play Oblivion Stone at all but the unreliable nature of this new card means that I'm _probably_ still not going to play it either (it is close though).

Another interesting card from the new commander set is Faerie Artisans which has an extremely high power ceiling but suffers from being unreliable. Might be worth a try.

mrjumbo03

11-30-2016, 12:43 AM

We hit 2 playables in the first 3 cards spoiled in Aether Revolt.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/128/316/200/283/636160307410537898.png

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/128/317/200/283/636160307523976555.png

kombatkiwi

11-30-2016, 05:07 AM

3 CMC specifically is interesting on Trophy Mage because it hits a lot of combo pieces:
Metalworker/Staff
Rings/Monolith
I wasn't playing staff before, maybe this makes it appealing enough? I'm not sure. There are also other considerations like Grand Architect etc. I'm not 100% sure I will include this card (definitely worse than Trinket, Fabricate) but it's something to consider.

Scrap Trawler is super interesting, definite auto include imo. Junk Diver and Myr Retriever are usually returning an artifact with CMC <3 so it's an upgrade in that sense.

Works well with:
Tinker activation (Arcum, Kuldotha, Reshape/Transmute)
Possessed Portal Trigger
Blowing up a board with Disk/Ostone
Tangle Wire fading away
Smokestack sacrificing things
Mindslaver / Memory Jar popping (Kind of a nonbo with Jar because the returned artifact will be exiled until EOT in the Memjar pile, but still)
Skullclamp Sac
As a very weird line if you desperately need to rebuy a critical expensive piece you could tinker up Spine to destroy itself

I still think that Spheres are the way to go in terms of disruption, so it's not worth building the deck with a ton of eggs & lotus petal type cards, but these definitely work the best with the Scrap Trawler.

kombatkiwi

12-29-2016, 12:22 AM

WHAAAAAT

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Paradox%2BEngine%2B%255BMS2%255D.jpg

Also this one, which is probably too expensive (I don't even like Planar Portal)

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Planar%2BBridge%2B%255BMS2%255D.jpg

mrjumbo03

12-30-2016, 12:59 AM

^I think both are win more cards.

kombatkiwi

12-30-2016, 02:36 PM

^I think both are win more cards.

This is a reasonable position but on Paradox Engine I think the line between "When this card is good you are already winning" and "This card lets you win out of nowhere in spots that no other card would" is at worst VERY fine. I think it's easy to see this card and dismiss it as a 5 mana Clock of Omens but it really needs much less setup and the payoff is WAY higher.

In a spot where Paradox Engine is the nuts you only need Arcum, 2 Fodders, and a couple of spells
1. 1st Tinker: Find Engine
2. Play spell, untap your stuff (This spell can even be the 2nd fodder if you only had 1 on board to start with)
3. 2nd Tinker: Do you have another spell? If yes, Myr Turbine. If no, Memory Jar.
4. Play spell, untap your stuff
5. At this point you should be basically going off and winning the game

Playing multiple spells in succession is not unreasonably hard because the Engine untaps all of your artifact mana. Having this line available is huge IMO because there isn't currently any such 1-tinker-combo-off-win-the-game play available from such a simple starting position. (Admittedly this is not totally deterministic in some spots but it's much closer to a definite win than just hail-marying into a Jar and hoping to draw a ridiculous hand).

In my previous post I said:

I still think that Spheres are the way to go in terms of disruption, so it's not worth building the deck with a ton of eggs & lotus petal type cards, but these definitely work the best with the Scrap Trawler.

Paradox Engine arguably doesn't 'slot in' to the build of the deck that I (and possibly you) currently use because I'm not playing a super high number of cheap fodders or cheap spells in general and I'm also playing a bunch of stax pieces that hinder the casting of multiple spells in one turn. But its printing might arguably be enough of a push to build the deck in this completely different, almost storm-like direction. Think of all the marginal cards that people have tried at one point or another (or are already playing at the moment) that suddenly become much better with this new card on the battlefield, almost to the point of absurdity:

- Any artifact that costs 0 or X (Everflowing Chalice, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Ornithopter, Baubles, LED) (Ornithopter gets a special shoutout because with the combo of Arcum + Engine it essentially becomes Tinker for 0 mana, Metalwork Colossus can also probably be free a significant amount of the time and rebuying it is a good way to get extra spell casts)
- Artifact creatures that 'effectively' cost 0 by paying for themselves when they die (Su-Chi and friends)
- Cards that make your spells cheaper (Helm of Awakening, Cloud Key, Semblance Anvil, Foundry Inspector)
- Artifacts that tap to do a thing for value (It's good enough with the ones that just tap for mana, it also lets you tick up Hangarback Walker, tinker with Forgemaster, Staff of Domination, Master Transmuter, Trading Post, if you play an instant you can draw an extra card with Top, you can loot with Deal Broker, make a free guy for every spell with Myr Propagator, draw with any Temple Bell/Jalum Tome effect, Make a thing with Prototype Portal - Certainly it is easy here to get caught up in the 'win more' aspect when suggesting cards that haven't been good enough in the past but it's at least interesting to think about how far you can push the boundaries)
- Other non-artifact things that tap for value (Sage of Lat-Nam, Grand Architect etc)
- Cheap cantrip artifacts (Chromatic Sphere, Prophetic Prism etc)
- Draw/tutor spells in general (Not only e.g. Ponder but also things like TfK, Mystical Tutor and even Windfall and Timetwister.)
- Retract-style cards that let you replay all your artifacts (Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Paradoxical Outcome)
- Anything that rewards you for playing a bunch of spells (e.g. Vedalken Archmage)
- Possible new infinites using passable cards people haven't really tried before (e.g. Isochron Scepter, Crystal Shard / Erratic Portal, Myr Reservoir, Ancestral Statue)
- If Junk Diver teams up with Retriever or Assistant (and you have 3 mana to untap each time you cast them or the equivalent amount of Etherium Sculptors) then you go infinite with any sac outlet (including Arcum). Any other Regrowth-style effect falls under this umbrella also (e.g. Codex Shredder)

There's enough there - I think - to construct a deck that uses its first tinker on Paradox Engine and wins the game immediately a significant amount of the time, without being much more fragile than builds that are popular currently. I think this would be a big upgrade and I'm definitely going to test it out.

mrjumbo03

01-02-2017, 11:08 AM

http://media.wizards.com/2016/c1lRLirbrl_AER/en_LC5qCFMqVT.png

And we get a Chord for Artifacts. Sweet!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/128/624/636189934260111517.png

And a 1-drop fodder with upside.

EDIT:

Strengthening Ballista
XX
Artifact Creature - Construct
Strengthening Ballista enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters.

4: Put a +1/+1 counter on Strengthening Ballista

Remova a +1/+1 counter from Strengthening Ballista: Strengthening Ballista deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

0/0

Another possible inclusion. Aether Revolt just keeps on giving.

EDIT again:
http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/hopeofghirapur.jpg

Another fodder with double use. It can serve as fodder, or can serve as Arcum protection prior to casting it.

Swing, sacrifice, play Arcum which won't be countered or killed (via noncreature spells) until your turn. This makes sure you get an activiation IF you have another fodder out.

mrjumbo03

01-07-2017, 01:20 AM

Final deliberations:
Scrap Trawler - will definitely include
Walking Ballista - will likely include
Hope of Ghirapur - 50/50 to include
Whir of Inventions - I thought this was a slam dunk, but considering it costs UUU, I'm not too sure now

EDIT:

I think I'm sold on Paradox Engine. A poster from the other forum had an idea of comboing it with Citanul Flute and other 0-drops, which basically allows you to win on the same turn. This way, we can streamline the deck and possibly even drop the Disk-Forge-Lattice combo (and its clunky pieces).

His idea was to use all 4 0-drops (Ornithopter, Memnite, Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker), but I think 1 would be enough (I think rather than a 2nd 0-drop, a 1-drop like Myr Moonvessel will do). The beginning setup requires Arcum and a fodder in play, a fodder in hand.
1. Activate Arcum to get Engine.
2. Cast 2nd fodder, which untaps Arcum, activate Arcum to get Flute, tap Flute to get a 0-drop.
3. Cast 1st 0 drop, which untaps Arcum and Flute, activate Arcum to get Basalt, tap Basalt (3mana), tap Flute to get a 0-drop or 1-drop.
4. Cast 2nd 0 drop or 1 drop, which untaps Arcum and Flute and Basalt, tap Basalt (4 mana or 6 mana, depending on casting cost of 2nd Flute tutor), activate Arcum to get Rings, tap Flute to get Walking Ballista.
5. Go infinite mana, cast Walking Ballista, win.

kombatkiwi

01-15-2017, 05:16 AM

I like the idea of Citanul Flute because it also has a reasonable toolbox/cardadvantage function in grinding games when you don't have the combo assembled.
I agree with the likely cut of the lattice/forge combo. You can also cut rings too, probably (although it still lets you assemble a 2-card infinite even if you don't have a sac outlet/Arcum which _might_ be worth it).

Edit:
To clarify, without rings the combo becomes
Tinker -> Engine
Cast Dork
Tinker -> Flute
Flute -> Thopter
Cast Thopter
Tinker -> Monolith
Tap Monolith (3)
Flute for a 1drop (2)
Cast 1drop (1)
Tinker the 1drop for the other monolith or Mana Vault
Tap your mana (7)
Flute for Myr Retriever (5)
Cast Myr Retriever (3)
Tap your mana (9)
Tinker away Myr Retriever (doesn't matter what for)
Flute for Junk Diver/Scrap Trawler/Workshop Assistant (6)
Cast whatever you just Fluted for (3)
Tap your mana (9)
Now you can just keep tinkering away Retriever/Diver over and over gaining mana each time, then you can flute for Ballista and kill them.

The only issue with this is that without Rings in the deck you no longer have an easy way to make infinite mana without also having Arcum in play (unless you also have power artifact in your deck, which I don't recommend). There is probably a somewhat more convoluted way of doing it by using Metalwork Colossus as a sac outlet instead but I haven't really thought about it. Being able to assemble infinite mana + win con without using Arcum is possibly difficult enough even with Rings that this shouldn't be a relevant concern.

I agree with the UUU on the convoke spell being hard to cast, I thought about maybe putting gilded lotus back in the deck because it's a powerful thing to untap with Paradox Engine but that might not be a good enough reason.

Pook and Pie

01-25-2017, 02:14 PM

Well, for what it's worth, I've tried this approach after playing Prison Arcum for 3 years, and this is my list at the moment:

Artifact (23)
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Citanul Flute
1x Chrome Mox
1x Defense Grid
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
1x Paradox Engine
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Staff of Domination
1x Static Orb
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
1x Torpor Orb

Creature (20)
1x Hangarback Walker
1x Hedron Crawler
1x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Junk Diver
1x Lodestone Golem
1x Manakin
1x Memnite
1x Metalworker
1x Millikin
1x Myr Moonvessel
1x Myr Retriever
1x Myr Sire
1x Ornithopter
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Plague Myr
1x Shimmer Myr
1x Silver Myr
1x Spellskite
1x Trinket Mage
1x Walking Ballista

Instant (15)
1x Arcane Denial
1x Brainstorm
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dispel
1x Dramatic reversal
1x Force of Will
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Negate
1x Pact of Negation
1x Spell Pierce
1x Swan Song
1x Turn Aside
1x Whir of Invention

Sorcery (4)
1x Fabricate
1x Preordain
1x Reshape
1x Transmute Artifact
1x Windfall

Enchantment (4)
1x Back to Basics
1x Mystic Remora
1x Power Artifact

Planeswalker (1)
1x Tezzeret the Seeker

Land (32)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Crystal Vein
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x Inkmoth Nexus
1x Inventors' Fair
19x Island
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Saprazzan Skerry
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Strip Mine

I'm really enjoying Paradox Engine, since Citanul Flute lets you go right into the win that turn. Generate infinite mana through Rings of Brighthearth/Basalt Monolith or Paradox Engine + Myr Retriever + Junk Diver + Basalt Monolith (easier to assemble than it sounds, since you just go grab Monolith after Flute) and then cast either Walking Ballista (preferred) or Hangarback Walker to win.

kombatkiwi

01-26-2017, 09:24 AM

mrjumbo03

01-27-2017, 09:03 PM

@Kiwi, what are your thoughts for Sphere now in light of the changes? Do you think it's still good enough, specially considering the Engine combo, which requires casting multiple stuff?

As to Portal, I love the card but considering we only need 1 tap now to win, I think it's safe to drop it. You'll probably never gonna hard cast it anyway. Same with Myr Turbine.

Pook and Pie

02-13-2017, 10:55 PM

Cards you play which I think are definitely not good:
- Staff of Domination (Only combos with Metalworker, Metalworker isn't searchable by Arcum and needs haste)
- Power Artifact (only combos with Monoliths and doesn't even win you the game)
- Shimmer Myr (Although perhaps there is some special combo reason I'm not seeing? It does let you go off at instant speed with flute if you have a ton of mana up but idk if that's worth it)

Cards you play which I find questionable:
- Chrome Mox (I don't think you have enough blue cards)
- Force (Ditto)
- Static Orb (I'm not entirely against this card but I am confused that you would play it before Winter Orb and Trinisphere and Tangle Wire)
- Mox Diamond (Not sure that the card disadvantage is worth it)
- Swiftfoot Boots (Unncessary Redundancy when you have Greaves and Elixir)
- 2x 0-Drop and 2x 1-Drop might be too many
- Rings of Brighthearth (As I stated in my previous post it just seems unnecessary now)
- Cage (Not that I think grave hate is bad but 0 mana vs 1 mana is pretty big for PEngine considerations and I was wondering why not Tormod's Crypt instead)

Cards that you are not playing which I find questionable:
- Artificer's Intuition (I'm just baffled that people don't consider this a staple tbh)
- Some sort of removal that Arcum can tinker out (Spine mainly)
- Copy artifact (If you feel that Metamorph and Steel are too slow I can get behind that but Copy Artifact is too much value at 2 mana I think)
- Possessed Portal (Having this card in your deck gives you a very unique angle that can have a high impact on the game for very little opportunity cost, sort of like a less situational Mindslaver. I'm not sure I would cut it, even with the Citanul flute combo available.)
- Tangle Wire and 3Sphere as I mentioned above.
- Whir of Invention (Dunno if UUU is realistic but you do play more blue sources than me)
- Fetchlands (although maybe this is a budget consideration along with Shop and Mana Drain)

Other commonly played cards have always been kind of marginal (or are marginal now that Paradox Engine is available) and I'm interested to see if you miss having them (or maybe you just never played them in the first place).
- Myr Turbine
- Memory Jar
- Crucible
- The removal artifacts I talked about above and all of the copy effects
- Kuldotha Forgemaster

It's amusing that Citanul Flute has always been available but has never really been played; before Myr Turbine the creature-maker of choice was Nuisance Engine. I'm not sure why Citanul-Ornithopter was never used before because it seems pretty good even without the Engine combo.

One of the other guys on the MTGS thread seems pretty high on Chalice of the Void, have you had any experience playing this card? It seems far too narrow to me but I guess it's pretty good on 1 (just like every other format I guess).

For Staff- I don't quite know why you say it only combos with Metalworker when it was my primary win con with Arcum before Paradox Engine. I would religiously go for Monolith - Rings - Staff to draw my whole library and then hard cast my lock pieces, since Rings would let me assemble combo in 2 turns vs spreading it across 3. That's the general purpose for Staff is to give me an out for when I can't reliably bring out Engine (removal, etc.). Power Artifact is just an easy and reliable way to infinite mana and the deck wins through infinite mana, that's all. I find that worth the slot. As for Shimmer Myr... its only purpose was enabling Engine combo at instant speed in the event of drawing it. I'm not super attached to it and can remove it for basically anything you may suggest is good, like Tangle Wire, which I used to run at one point but removed with the revamp.

For Chrome Mox and Force: The deck is a quarter blue, currently, which is enough to upkeep at least one of them. I'm attached to Force for obvious reasons, but Chrome Mox could probably be Jeweled Amulet, maybe? I dunno, what do you think of Jeweled Amulet?

For Static vs Winter Orb: My meta is basically Zur, Azami, Breya, Ghave, Food Chain Tazri and Prossh, Teferi Planeswalker, Thrasios of two flavors, Jeleva and Yidris Storm, etc., with anything black running Doomsday or Ad Nauseam. Winter Orb simply isn't valuable in this meta, but Static Orb can affect the variety of Mana Crypts, Mox Diamonds, etc., I see every game and force them to choose if I need to. My largest thing is running only the cards I can hardcast to slow down an early Ad Nauseam win, though oftentimes I simply rely on counter spells to do that if I am not Silenced. Most of these decks don't ramp out lands but instead rely on mana rocks- Prossh and Ghave really being the only exceptions, and they're not quite as bad since they win on turn 5 at most while the others do the nuts on turns 2-4 and win if not stopped by one of us.

I have 2 of the 0 and 1 drops because they still let me grab one during games I'm low on mana and have to break one to get the combo rolling, initially (if I had to cast and sac Ornithopter to get Paradox Engine, and my only other spells cost 3 mana (rare, but can happen), then I wind up stuck if I can't Flute for something 0 cost. I could probably drop Hope, though, as he's not as good as I had initially hoped (having to attack before Silencing is a lot worse than I was hoping for and is only useful when Arcum has haste).

Rings seems to provide a lot of value, even after Engine, but considering Engine is a sorcery-speed only combo, I would be worried about being permanently stopped by the instant speed removal everyone already runs especially if they'd discover that Engine is my only enabler for infinite mana at that point. Is that not really something I should worry about?

Copy Artifact is still very good, you're right. I may pull Hope of Ghirapur for it, now that I am thinking about it (and besides that, my copy doesn't have anywhere else to go...).

Cage is because of Karador, Yawgmoth's Will, and more. Setting it out basically forces every other deck to tutor/dig through to Chain of Vapor or something to bounce it so they can combo off and win, forcing them to spend more time or resources doing that before they can tutor Doomsday/Ad Nauseam. Protecting Cage basically lets me win against Karador and Yisan without doing anything. I like it a lot more than Crypt right now due to those reasons, but I've kept a Crypt boarded just in case I need to exile something at instant speed since Cage doesn't stop everything.

I removed Tangle Wire for Thorn of Amethyst after Jeleva repeatedly combo'd out over top of Tangle Wire. I will try Tangle Wire over Static Orb for now, since I basically try to slow down the faster decks until t4-5 so I can go off, myself.

I had fetches in for when I had Crucible in the deck, but when I removed Crucible, I removed the fetches as well since they provided very marginal benefit after that point (mathematically I don't feel deck thinning was enough of a reason to leave those lands in this deck. I wound up putting all of the blue fetches, from Tarn to Strand, in my own Zur). Crucible and Strip/Fetch was pretty much too slow for my old meta, and my new one is significantly faster than it so I don't really miss Crucible.

I go back and forth on Spine- oftentimes I've just found that going for the win was a better option than tapping Arcum that one time to remove something. What would you drop for it if you were in my shoes and meta?

Whir is in the deck, but Portal got cut because I could tap Arcum to slow the game down, or I could tap Arcum and try to win. Portal's only relevant ability is that players can't draw cards but the decks that I would want to utilize this card against (Doomsday/Ad Nauseam decks), can win straight through it and do so on the same turn I could pull it, so I cut it. It's only really relevant against Teferi, Yisan, Karador, and Prossh, here, and I already don't have very much trouble with those decks. Getting Portal down before Ad Nauseam or Doomsday is basically an impossibility at this point: If I have the speed to do it, it means they have a bad hand or aren't drawing what they need in order to cast it early. I've been using Lodestone Golem in its place and, while I can't tutor that with Arcum, Thorn can be if I really need it, though if I manage to get an Arcum around the table or down with haste, I push for the win instead of anything else (these fast as hell decks tend to run 1-2 removal spells per so it's usually up to counters to stop me. It is really fun to windmill slam Arcum on the table while everyone else spent their counters/tapped down to stop Leovold from resolving Ad Nauseam, etc.).

So, I think I'll put Tangle Wire/Trinisphere back in (leaning more towards Wire right now I guess), and Copy Artifact. I'll drop Shimmer Myr and Static Orb and see how I like the changes. What's your current list looking like, Kiwi?

kombatkiwi

04-14-2017, 09:33 AM

Played a handful of games with the AER cards.
The combo is nuts (obv).
I cut Rings of Brighthearth and didn't miss it. I also therefore cut Basalt Monolith, because "{3} Tap: Add 3 [Doesn't untap]" isn't a particularly good card when you aren't comboing with it (which is unfortunate because I have a Beta copy but oh well). I won the games using the combo I describe a few posts earlier (cycling through Trawler/Diver to make infinite mana with Paradox Engine then Ballista everybody to death). You have enough mana artifacts to set this up without Basalt because you still have Grim and Mana Vault.

Chalice of the Void seemed pretty bad and I think I'm off Smokestack for good now (way too slow).
I also think Crucible might also be too slow to make enough of an impact and cutting Smokestack makes it less useful as well. (Cutting Smokestack also makes Genesis Chamber look much more appealing and I think that card is quite underrated).
I might be inclined to cut possessed portal but still not 100% on this yet.
I kept Spine because sometimes killing things is needed (and I did use it) but I cut Disk and OStone (Lattice/Forge are gone)

I have been impressed with Metalwork Colossus both as a recurring fodder and as a sacrifice outlet for Junk Divers. Whir of Invention surprised me, wasn't as difficult to cast as I thought it might be, but I might have just gotten lucky.

There was an interesting situation that came up:

Battlefield:
Untapped Metalworker
tapped Grim Monolith
3 Untapped island
Arcum in command zone

Hand:
Reshape
Guardian Idol
Crucible
Clamp
Slaver

I don't think you can actually go off this turn:
Tap metalworker for 8
Tap 2 islands and pay 2 (6 in pool), Reshape for Greaves sacrificing Monolith
Tap island play Arcum (3 in pool)
Play Guardian Idol (1 in pool)
Put Greaves on Arcum
Tap Arcum sac Metalworker
Find Paradox Engine
Cast Clamp (0 in pool) untap Guardian Idol and Arcum
Tap Guardian Idol (1 in pool)

If you had any 0 drop here you could combo off (cast spell, Engine untaps Guardian Idol, tap Idol for 1, animate Idol, tinker it away for Flute).
This is the kind of situation why I suggested Tormod's Crypt over Grafdigger's Cage because sometimes you just need Engine triggers.
You could also combo off if Guardian Idol was an actual Myr by just casting it post-tinker so maybe the actual lesson is that Guardian Idol isn't good enough? Not sure about this.
Fortunately I still won the game just by playing Greaves Arcum and passing the turn after Clamping Metalworker.

I cut Myr Turbine and Memory Jar (Jar probably could have been cut a long time ago tbh) and haven't missed either of them so far.

mrjumbo03

04-14-2017, 11:04 AM

^what's your latest list kombatkiwi?

kombatkiwi

04-14-2017, 01:37 PM

// 35 Land
11 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Tolaria West
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruin
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexia's Core
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Crystal Vein
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Inventors' Fair

Sea Gate Wreckage could probably be an Island (because the combo is much more streamlined now it makes grinding a much less important part of the plan, also Citanul Flute is a big part of the grind plan now and doesn't work well with Sea Gate)
You could play Oboro if you wanted to

// 31 Artifact
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Opal
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Expedition Map
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Skullclamp
1 Pithing Needle
1 Defense Grid
1 Paradox Engine
1 Citanul Flute
1 Trinisphere
1 Voltaic Key
---- {1} ----
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Guardian Idol
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Tangle Wire
1 Winter Orb
1 Lotus Petal
---- {2} ----
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thought Prison
1 Possessed Portal
1 Mindslaver
1 Mind Stone
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Sculpting Steel
The different 'tiers' are based on the idea of "If somebody told me to cut this card how strongly would I disagree with them".
Some cards are low tier because I have played with them a lot and they don't seem to be very essential (Sculpting Steel, Mindslaver etc).
Others I just don't have much experience with (e.g. Thought Prison) so if you tell me it's bad I can't draw on much to argue. I just wanted to try a bunch of things.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was actually 100% correct to play e.g. Mind Stone but it doesn't change your overall strategy or give you any significant new gameplay options, and it's so close to many other similar cards it's hard to make a case for it either way.
Top drops into 'tier 2' status now because you don't need it in the Rings combo anymore.

// 25 Creature
1 Silver Myr
1 Plague Myr
1 Manakin
1 Millikin
1 Trinket Mage
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Junk Diver
1 Myr Retriever
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Metalworker
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Hedron Crawler
1 Workshop Assistant
1 Ornithopter
1 Scrap Trawler
---- {1} ----
1 Walking Ballista
1 Master Transmuter
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Vedalken Archmage
1 Metalwork Colossus
1 Sage of Lat-Nam
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
---- {2} -----
1 Mirran Spy

- I think it's correct to play all 4 of the Divers
- Ballista can probably be tier 1, I have this feeling that as 'just a finisher' maybe it's not needed but I don't really know how to justify this. (How else are you supposed to win, tinker up Spine to destroy everyone's permanents and then Mindslaver lock them all so they can't do anything? Maybe? I've even considered playing Perilous Myr and Ticking Gnomes before so on its own it really can't be that bad either).
- Kuldotha Forgemaster and Lodestone are very close to 'tier 1'. The blue creatures are more questionable.
- Mirran Spy is just shit I think. I had this idea that you go Spy->Arcum->Flute->Ornithopter->Cast Ornithopter triggering Spy, untap Arcum -> Tinker away the thopter for Engine -> Go off. The problem with this line is that if you replace Spy with e.g. Phyrexian Walker then you just Tinker for Engine first and you still go off at the same time with the same number of resources, except you didn't have to pay 3 mana for a creature.
- I think that Ornithopter should probably be Memnite for Skullclamp reasons.

// 2 Enchantment
1 Artificer's Intuition
1 Copy Artifact

Both of these are auto-include imo

// 2 Instant
1 Mana Drain
1 Whir of Invention
Whir is good assuming you can cast it reliably.
Drain is also great and is powerful enough to be played in a list with Grid and 3Ball and all this other stuff that makes no sense alongside it.

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

// 3 Sorcery
1 Fabricate
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Reshape
All of these are good

// 1 Sideboard
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Arcum Dagsson

The most most obvious change I would make looking at this list is to cut Mirran Spy and put Thorn of Amethyst in.
I'm still trying to figure out whether I need an answer to the question 'what happens if they play Anguished Unmaking on your Paradox Engine'
Thought Prison is meant to be a sort of attempt to preempt this as I think a lot of the backup infinites need bad cards that don't do anything (Rings, Power Artifact, etc). If I had to pick one 'bad infinite' I think it would be Staff-Metalworker because it only needs one bad card and the Metalworker is more reliably searchable seeing as Flute is a core part of the deck now.

mrjumbo03

04-14-2017, 02:37 PM

kombatkiwi

04-15-2017, 12:20 AM

We're around 16-22 cards off (some are personal choices). Of these, I'm looking at the following.

1. I was wondering, what's the usual casting cost of Metalwork Colossus for you? Noncreature artifact deduction scares me.
2. Is Defense Grid worth it, even if you're running a small Counterspell package (6 counters)?
3. I've dropped Kuldotha Forgemaster (was always just a fodder), Voltaic Key (technically, limited use [needs 2 or more-mana producing artifacts to be worth it]. Possessed Portal and Spine of Ish Sah were dropped due to their CMC, but Spine might be making a comeback. On that note, is Spine worth it without some of your artifact-sacrifice cards (Phyrexia's Core, Sage of Lat-Nam)?

1. If you have Flute/Engine then it's already reduced by 10, this hasn't been an issue so far.
2. Not sure, tutoring for it as a Silence-effect is useful but if you already have counterspells in your hand then you wouldn't need to. I would lean towards still playing it I think.
3. Voltaic Key was close to dropping a tier
It's only good with
Crypt
Ring
Vault
Metalworker
Flute
Monolith
Master Transmuter
Forgemaster
Top
Elixir?
Ratchet Bomb?

Possibly not good enough

I think Kuldotha Forgemaster is better now because before the combo needed more pieces. Now you can use Kuldotha to find Flute, which finds you more artifacts to sac for the 2nd activation. It could still be too costly though, I don't think it's one of the best cards in the deck.

I would still definitely play Spine even if it didn't have the second ability. I just think that you need an artifact that can act as immediate removal and you're too reliant on your permanents to use Oblivion Stone in most situations. The only other choices as far as I am aware are Unstable Obelisk or Universal Solvent but considering you need 7 mana to activate them and Spine is 7 to cast anyway this doesn't make much sense to me. (They also don't do anything against Stony Silence)

Edit
Just won a game through
- Player A double milling me with Codex Shredder in response to Arcum activation trying to snipe a combo piece
- Player B controlling Thorn of Amethyst and using Yisan to tutor up caustic caterpillar mid-combo to destroy Paradox Engine (blocked it with Spellskite)
- Player C controlling Ethersworn Canonist and 3 drop Thalia

Paradox Engine is such a stupid card
Lost a game where Voltaic Key didn't do anything.
Jeweled Amulet is ok, it was like a Lotus Petal that added mana and then I could sac it to Sage of Lat Nam, nothing exciting. It might be worse than any Signet because it can't contribute to mana when you're going off with Paradox engine.
It occurred to me that Genesis Chamber is very bad against specifically Edric but that might be too much of a corner-case to worry about.

mrjumbo03

04-20-2017, 11:37 AM

kombatkiwi

04-21-2017, 04:13 AM

^1. You're probably already winning with both Engine and Flute in play though. I'm more interested in scenarios pre-combo. I just can't see how we can reliably cast Metalwork Colossus as fodder pre-combo. (But I bought a foil one just the same)

Even with with both Engine and Flute you don't win without Arcum (a sac outlet) in play hence why Colossus is there. If this turns out to be too much of a corner case then I will cut it (being a wonky Squee for Atificer's Intuition or a way to ditch Junk Divers for value probably isn't worth it, especially seeing as the deck doesn't have many ways to put it in the graveyard).

Some people think the artifact sac outlet slot is necessary but are playing Arcbound Ravager instead, which is probably fine. I guess there aren't many situations where Colossus is better.

If you want you can even use Phyrexian Dreadnought for style points:

Play Dreadnought
Sac Retriever, Trawler, Dreadnought

Trawler triggers
-> Trawler (3) Return Retriever (2)
-> Retriever (2) Return Dreadnought (1)
-> Dreadnought (1) return an 0-drop (0)

Retriever trigger -> Return Trawler

Recast everything again, Etc
Or you could even shoot your guys with Masticore rather than sacrificing them but it's probably harder to get the mana to work that way.

AndyTron

04-22-2017, 12:47 PM

Even with with both Engine and Flute you don't win without Arcum (a sac outlet) in play hence why Colossus is there. If this turns out to be too much of a corner case then I will cut it (being a wonky Squee for Atificer's Intuition or a way to ditch Junk Divers for value probably isn't worth it, especially seeing as the deck doesn't have many ways to put it in the graveyard).

Some people think the artifact sac outlet slot is necessary but are playing Arcbound Ravager instead, which is probably fine. I guess there aren't many situations where Colossus is better.

If you want you can even use Phyrexian Dreadnought for style points:

Or you could even shoot your guys with Masticore rather than sacrificing them but it's probably harder to get the mana to work that way.

Actually, winning without Arcanum is simple, just flute for trinket mage and fetch skullclamp. Then you can use clamp to loop retriever and junk diver for the win.

kombatkiwi

04-22-2017, 08:37 PM

Actually, winning without Arcanum is simple, just flute for trinket mage and fetch skullclamp. Then you can use clamp to loop retriever and junk diver for the win.

Sure I guess this works, you don't even need to worry about decking yourself before reaching lethal ballista mana because you only need enough to replay Arcum again and equip him with greaves.

AndyTron

04-23-2017, 01:55 AM

Sure I guess this works, you don't even need to worry about decking yourself before reaching lethal ballista mana because you only need enough to replay Arcum again and equip him with greaves.

Oh, I don't use ballista as my main wincon anymore. I added aetherflux reservoir because I wanted something that didn't use the graveyard. It also lets you win without Arcum, letting you play a kind of storm game. I've been testing out batterskull for the times you don't have a second fodder for Arcum. Since it's not actually a creature Arcum can grab it, and if you have engine out and eight mana worth of rocks you can go infinite without worrying about decking yourself or using the graveyard at all.

kombatkiwi

04-23-2017, 03:24 AM

Oh, I don't use ballista as my main wincon anymore. I added aetherflux reservoir because I wanted something that didn't use the graveyard. It also lets you win without Arcum, letting you play a kind of storm game. I've been testing out batterskull for the times you don't have a second fodder for Arcum. Since it's not actually a creature Arcum can grab it, and if you have engine out and eight mana worth of rocks you can go infinite without worrying about decking yourself or using the graveyard at all.

Well I get that recasting batterskull is a way to make infinite mana without using the graveyard, which could be useful, but once you are at that point then both Ballista and Aetherflux win the game without needing the graveyard, right? You can just cast ballista from your hand for X = 1000 and kill everybody, you don't have to recur it back at any point unless for some reason you already used it. A 2 mana artifact 1/1 is so much more useful to this deck than a 4 mana noncreature artifact do-nothing that I can't see how you justify making this change. Theres no way you can storm out to 100+ life totals with this deck unless you have a loop going in which case you have already set up infinite mana to win with Ballista anyway

I think the option of making infinite mana without using the graveyard is potentially useful but isn't something like Crystal Shard just better than Batterskull? Or even Ancestral Statue.

mrjumbo03

08-24-2017, 12:59 PM

kombatkiwi

08-25-2017, 01:53 AM

Sorcerous Spyglass
2
Artifact

As Sorcerous Spyglass enters the battlefield, look at an opponent's hand, then choose any card name.
Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.

----

Looks good to me.

'Peek 1 player' is obviously much worse in multiplayer and I don't know that the deck needs 3 Pithing Needles
- Revoker is worth because it's a creature so even if there is nothing important to name Arcum can tinker it away
- Needle is worth because Artificer's Intuition and Trinket Mage can both find it, it only costs 1 mana to cast, if you are very desperate Arcum can also find it.
- What option does this give you that the previous two cards don't?

If you had asked me previously "Would you play 2 Revokers if you were allowed to?" then I think I might say yes, not because turning off an ability is great in a vacuum but because being an artifact creature limits how bad it can be. If you ask me would I play 2 Pithing Needles if I was allowed to I think I would say no (and Spyglass is worse than Needle I think, being 2 mana).

Maybe I will change my mind later but this is my 2c at the moment.

mrjumbo03

09-10-2017, 02:04 AM

Foil Manakin in IMA! Finally!

kombatkiwi

09-10-2017, 10:20 AM

Foil Manakin in IMA! Finally!

I think I like the art and the flavor text more than the tempest one too although I do love my brown borders...

kombatkiwi

12-05-2017, 12:28 AM

Picked up foil Manakin and foil Guardian Idol from IMA
I think the old Guardian Idol might look better than the new one but I didn't have a foil and it's just nice to have some fresh art.

I haven't thought of anything great since the last update really. I'm considering whether Grand Architect/Pili-Pala might be a viable backup combo (especially because Citanul Flute finds both pieces). It has the same problem of Power/Monolith (compared to Staff/Metalworker) that it only makes mana and needs a third card, but if you assembled it already with Flute then you can find Ballista anyway. Also still wondering about the paradox of playing Lotus Petal and Trinisphere in the same deck.

Now that there is a 2nd Etherium Sculptor (Foundry Inspector) I am wondering about the possibility of adding Magus of the Future back in for the combo with Top, but this is probably too greedy still.

I have a lot of flexible slots (~10 or so) and they can always be filled with generic interaction or card draw or signets without doing anything fancy. Mystic Remora is something I have probably underrated in the past.

Edit: I think Hollow One might actually be alright now that I think about it, even though you probably wouldn't cast it much it gives some extra flexibility in that you _can_ do that, and it gives an extra target for Junk Diver and so forth (unlike Baubles it actually has the ability to do something other than draw a card and because cycling is not a spell the cantrip is immune to Trinisphere, Thorn etc)

Edit 2: I have found several lines requiring a 2nd 0-drop (so Memnite plus either Shield Sphere, Phyrexian Walker, or Ornithopter).
I am wondering whether Retriever / Diver / Assistant / Trawler are all necessary or if e.g. Assistant can be cut

kombatkiwi

01-03-2018, 04:47 AM

Creature
4 Arcum Dagsson
3 Trinket Mage
3 Grand Architect
3 Trophy Mage
4 Quicksmith Spy

Planeswalker
5 Tezzeret the Seeker

Artifact
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Opal
0 Tormod's Crypt
0 Lotus Petal
0 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Pithing Needle
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Guardian Idol
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Winter Orb
2 Grim Monolith
2 Defense Grid
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crystal Shard
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Thousand Year Elixir
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Staff of Domination
5 Citanul Flute
5 Paradox Engine
7 Spine of Ish Sah

Artifact Creature
0 Hangarback Walker
0 Walking Ballista
0 Memnite
0 Ornithopter
2 Silver Myr
2 Plague Myr
2 Manakin
2 Millikin
2 Hedron Crawler
2 Spellskite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Etherium Sculptor
2 Myr Retriever
2 Pili-Pala
3 Metalworker
3 Junk Diver
4 Lodestone Golem

Enchantment
2 Copy Artifact
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Power Artifact

Sorcery
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Reshape
3 Fabricate

Instant
0 Pact of Negation
2 Mana Drain
3 Whir of Invention

Land
35

3 Unknown Slot

In the past I have been unhappy with Power Artifact, and recently I anticipated that I would not want to play the Rings/Basalt combo anymore (now that it is possible to win with Flute/Engine). However there is now such an an abundance of tutors (Inventor's Fair, Trophy Mage, Whir of Invention have all been recently printed) that it is both easier to assemble these combo pairs and easier to find a sink for having infinite mana (this is why I like adding PP/Architect as well). There is also some benefit to playing multiple of these. If you play Staff only as a combo with Metalworker then it will be a brick a large amount of the time, if you have it as an outlet for infinite mana for PP/Architect, PA/Monolith etc etc then it becomes a much more useful card.

Quicksmith Spy is not only a reasonably acceptable card by itself, all of the infinite mana combos (Ring/Monolith, PP/Architect, PA/Monolith) combo with it to draw your entire deck. Other sinks for infinite mana are much less good, as far as I am aware. Quicksmith Spy + Pili Pala is also not a terrible combo by itself but ultimately using Quicksmith Spy for value is still a plan B.

I have cut back the retrievers to only 2 because that is the minimum amount needed for the combo and they are not very good cards by themselves. (The deck does not fill the graveyard very consistently and the main sac outlet is Arcum. If you are successfully sacrificing ANYTHING to Arcum you are probably winning and don't care about the value of the death trigger much). Myr Retriever is the best one because it costs the least, Junk Diver is better than Scrap Trawler I think, because it dies to Skullclamp, and returns anything, and I can flex on people with my foil one (starcity $28 out of stock wat the fuk). I don't think there are enough other sac things (Mind Stone etc) for the Scrap Trawler ability to consistently provide value, but I could be wrong.

Other cards have not changed much from my previous list

Crystal Shard is untested but seems like it could be good
-Save a guy from removal
-Rebuy Trinket Mage etc
-Tax your opponent's creatures
-Combo with Paradox Engine

I have goldfished Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond to very mixed results, I'm not convinced that they make sense in this deck.

One of the last 3 cards should probably be Force of Will if the blue count is high enough. The other cards could be card draw (Thoughtcast, TFK, Reverse Engineer), Mana (Mind Stone, Commanders Sphere, Everflowing Chalice) or a silver bullet card (like Mindslaver or something). I also wouldn't be against adding 1 land.

Edit:
Played 1 game with this list
All of the decklist theorycrafting was basically irrelevant
I played Mana crypt, Aetherspellbomb, Manakin turn 1
Arcum turn 2
Turn 3 I awkwardly topdeck the Paradox Engine but I use Spellbomb to bounce Rashmi's Baral so he can't cast Mana Leak, and win the game
It really can't be overstated how stupid Paradox Engine is for this deck

kombatkiwi

03-09-2018, 09:03 AM

New cards

The Antiquities War 3U
Enchantment — Saga
(As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter. Sacrifice after III.)
I, II — Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
III — Artifacts you control become artifact creatures with base power and toughness 5/5 until end of turn.

Howling Golem 3
Artifact Creature - Golem 2/3
Whenever ~ attacks or blocks, each player draws a card

Jhoira's Familiar 4
Artifact Creature - Bird 2/2
Flying
Your 'historic' spells (artifact, legendary, saga) cost 1 less

Karn, Scion of Urza 4
Legendary PW - Karn [5]
+1 Reveal top 2 cards, opp choose 1. Put chosen card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it
-1 Put a card you own from exile with a silver counter on it into your hand
-2 Create a 0/0 artifact construct token with 'this gets +1+1 for each artifact you control'

Mishra's Self-Replicator 5
Artifact Creature - Assembly Worker 2/2
Whenever you cast a historic spell (Artifact, legendary, saga), you may pay 1. If you do, create a token copy of Mishra's Self-replicator

Mox Amber 0
Legendary Artifact
{T}: Add 1 mana of any color among legendary creatures and planeswalkers you control

Voltaic Servant 2
Artifact Creature - Construct 1/3
At the beginning of your end step, untap target artifact

Thoughts:
AQ War: 4 mana for 2x impulse over 2 turns is too slow for EDH and the alpha-strike effect isn't good in 40 life multiplayer
Howling Golem: Interesting option to consider but I'm not playing Runed Servitor and probably wouldn't play this for the same reasons
Jhoira's Familiar: Foundry Inspector that also discounts Arcum is a very interesting option, unfortunately the manacost means this doesn't work on any sort of curve. Possibly good but I'm leaning towards no
Karn: Being able to make artifact tokens is nice, but 4 mana to do that is a lot and I think that the other abilities might be too slow
Self Replicator: Cool effect but too expensive (c.f. Myr Propagator)
Mox Amber: If Arcum is in play you don't typically need much mana, but a Mox is a Mox. Free spells are always strong with Paradox Engine, maybe this is still good.
Voltaic Servant: Interesting ability and cheap cost, the problem is that I don't think it actually does anything in the deck! It seems like the best thing it can do is untap Mana Vault. I recently began to think Voltaic Key is a bit mediocre, and while it's nice that the servant is an Artifact Creature, not being able to untap things in your main phases is a significant drawback.

TL:DR not amazed by anything so far but the set has a bit of an artifact theme so hopefully there is something new for the deck

kombatkiwi

04-14-2018, 02:17 AM

Full set out now: every card that is even marginally interesting (in addition to the above post)

Artificer's Assistant {U}
Creature - Bird 1/1
Flying
Whenever you cast a historic spell scry 1

Weatherlight {4}
Legendary Artifact - Vehicle 4/5
Flying
Whenever Weatherlight deals combat damage to a player, look at the top 5 cards of your library. You may reveal a historic card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
Crew 3

Helm of the Host {4}
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
At the beginning of combat on your turn, create a copy of equipped creature, except the copy isn't legendary if equipped creature is legendary. The token gains haste
Equip 5

Thran Temporal Gateway {4}
Legendary Artifact
{4}, {T}; you may put a historic permanent card from your hand onto the battlefield

Traxos, Scourge of Kroog {4}
Legendary Artifact Creature - Construct 7/7
Trample
~ Enters the battlefield tapped and doesn't untap during its controllers untap step.
Whenever you cast a historic spell, untap ~.

Damping Sphere {2}
Artifact
If a land is tapped for 2 or more mana it produces {C} instead of any other type or amount
Each spell a player casts cost {1} more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn

Skittering Surveyor {3}
Artifact Creature - Construct 1/2
[It's Pilgrim's Eye without Flying]

My thoughts:
- The Bird: would be an interesting option if it was an artifact, as printed I don't think it does enough to be worth a card
- Weatherlight: Would be almost tempted to include this if it was just a creature all the time, however 1 Impulse per turn is a very slow payoff for a 4 mana investment (see my comments on The Antiquities War) and Crew 3 is not easy for this deck to do
- Helm: I can't see a reason to play this, but it has a unique enough effect that I thought I could have possibly missed some combo with it so I thought I might as well list it down just in case someone else has any ideas
- Thran Temporal Gateway: Just bad, you shouldn't be playing things that are so expensive you can reliably accelerate with this, compares unfavourably to other fringe cards like Master Transmuter
- Traxos: Similar to Helm, I can't see a reason to play a 7/7 beatstick in EDH even if it does 'only' cost 4, but maybe there is some combo loop with its trigger so I note it just in case
- Damping Sphere: Very good card but as long as we are utilizing the Paradox Engine / Flute chain it almost certainly hurts this deck more than most others (which is fortunately the opposite of most sphere effects, Thorn Lodestone Thalia etc), so I don't think it's playable
- Surveyor: I'm not even playing Pilgrim's Eye 1.0 and I'm not sure what it would take for me to go back to that, but I have used it in the past so here is another one if anybody still rates Civic Wayfinders

Not a very exciting set overall imo.
Top 3 cards:
Voltaic Servant
Mox Amber
Jhoira's Familiar

And I don't know if any of these are actually good enough or not

Bonus meme: new artwork for Sage of Lat Nam

mrjumbo03

04-24-2018, 11:43 AM

I'll probably try Karn. It's a strong card on its own, and is bolstered further by its capability to make fodder, and to be cast earlier than turn 4 given the number of mana rocks we run.

kombatkiwi

05-30-2018, 11:21 AM

M19 Spoiler

Skyscanner {3}
Artifact Creature - Thopter
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
1/1

Probably going to play this, straightforward but solid card

mrjumbo03

05-31-2018, 01:35 AM

M19 Spoiler

Skyscanner {3}
Artifact Creature - Thopter
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
1/1

Probably going to play this, straightforward but solid card

I'm not too high on it because it costs 3. If it costed 2, it would'v been a slam dunk.

As it is, it sort of feels like Pilgrim's Eye or Filigree Familiar. In any case, it should probably be considered the best in that tier (3 drop fodders that provide value).

kombatkiwi

05-31-2018, 01:54 AM

I'm not too high on it because it costs 3. If it costed 2, it would'v been a slam dunk.

As it is, it sort of feels like Pilgrim's Eye or Filigree Familiar. In any case, it should probably be considered the best in that tier (3 drop fodders that provide value).

If it cost 2 it would almost be too good for constructed

Drawing a random card is significantly better than drawing island most of the time, and drawing a card on ETB is significantly better than drawing a card on dying
I agree that it's not mind-blowingly powerful but I think it's clearly better than Pilgrim's Eye / Filigree Familiar / Workshop Assistant etc

mrjumbo03

06-20-2018, 04:07 PM

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/269/947/200/283/636651182430845526.png

Looks really good.

kombatkiwi

06-21-2018, 01:53 AM

It does look pretty good

I'm always suspicious of these kind of token makers because I think that having the ability to make limitless tokens often isn't worth their expensive manacost (e.g. I think that Karn is probably worse than Myr Sire most of the time)

This already has the same triggered ability as Efficient Construction, which at 4 mana I would say is too expensive to be playable

However, this is 1 mana cheaper and the activated ability could be useful in some situations, so I will test it

Apart from this card there is also the Meteor Golem (I think that's what it's called) which is interesting but I think probably too expensive/narrow

mrjumbo03

06-21-2018, 09:09 PM

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/10/200/283/636652179533841824.png

2 relevant abilities on this one.

kombatkiwi

06-22-2018, 12:23 PM

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/270/10/200/283/636652179533841824.png

2 relevant abilities on this one.

True but it still has the exact same problem I just talked about
Like how often are you going to be activating this so many times that it's better than TFK or Reverse Engineer or whatever
At least OG Tezz isn't such a tempo black hole by giving you 3 mana worth of card onto the battlefield

If the Ox-Wand thing had instant speed activation I think it might be an automatic staple
As-is, I think it's still quite good

mrjumbo03

06-23-2018, 10:56 PM

True but it still has the exact same problem I just talked about
Like how often are you going to be activating this so many times that it's better than TFK or Reverse Engineer or whatever
At least OG Tezz isn't such a tempo black hole by giving you 3 mana worth of card onto the battlefield

If the Ox-Wand thing had instant speed activation I think it might be an automatic staple
As-is, I think it's still quite good

The times when things don't go according to plan. If Arcum gets answered 2-3 times, we need some grindy way to get back in the game, and even try to win without relying on Arcum. Also, OG Tezz is not in danger of losing its place because of its tutor ability.

New Tezz, and to a certain extent, Baby Karn, gives us a constant source of advantage when the Arcum way is not available, which can try to get us back in the game, or maybe try to win it, without relying on Arcum (assembling the combo without him), WHILE also serving the dual role of providing fodder once the Arcum route is clear or if it's available to begin with, albeit at a higher cost than normal fodder. Compare this to let's say Big Karn, while an excellent planeswalker in its own right, do not really advance the Arcum plan (doesn't produce fodder).

TFK or Reverse Engineer provide a 1-time boost, which for me, means leaning towards relying on the Arcum route more, so it doesn't provide flexibility (I'm not saying you shouldn't run TFK though, I just think they don't do the same thing).

Agree with the Ox-Wand, instant staple if it had instant speed activation. A repeatable answer to problematic creatures may have some use in the deck.

kombatkiwi

07-25-2018, 12:49 AM

Some new cards from commander 18 that are possibly playable

Retrofitter Foundry {1}
Artifact
{3}: Untap ~
{2}, Tap: Create a 1/1 Artifact Servo
{1}, Tap, Sacrifice a Servo: Create a 1/1 Artifact Thopter with Flying
Tap, Sacrifice a Thopter: Create a 4/4 Artifact Construct
This card is pretty good by itself, cmc 1 or less token maker, not too mana-inefficient for the rate that it makes tokens, outlet for infinite mana. Unfortunately this job is already done very well by Hangarback Walker which has a better base rate of 2 tokens for 2 mana and can be found with Citanul Flute for 0. I don't know that the deck needs both.

Coveted Jewel {6}
Artifact
When ~ Enters the battlefield, draw 3
Tap: Add 3 of any one color
Whenever an opponent attacks you with an unblocked creature, they gain control of ~, draw 3, and untap it
6 mana Gilded Lotus with ETB Ancestral Recall would probably make the cut, but the drawback of giving it to your opponent is quite serious.
I think that this card becomes much stronger if you are playing things like Kuldotha Forgemaster to tutor for it or things to sacrifice it so your opponent can't steal it. Then again, if you have a tinker effect, wouldn't you rather just search for Paradox Engine or Citanul Flute? Does the deck really want to be casting 6 drops from hand ever? In very cutthroat metagames giving your opponent a free ancestral + lotus can often be tantamount to losing the game. This card is difficult to evaluate because it's so high-risk/high-reward. Part of the main combo involves tinkering for mana rocks but I don't think a free Recall does anything when you're already doing off.

Geode Golem {5}
Artifact Creature - Golem
Trample
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, you can cast your commander from the command zone without paying its manacost
5/3
Very interesting ability. It will always be an artifact creature so it still has uses in games that are smooth sailing but in games where Arcum is removed it can potentially provide a lot of acceleration. The problem is that if Arcum dies once then a card that adds mana like Thran Dynamo will also let you replay Arcum again, and these mana accelerators have far more generic application than the Geode Golem

Vedalken Humiliator {3}{U}
Creature: Vedalken Wizard
Metalcraft: When ~ attacks, if you control 3 or more artifacts, creatures your opponents control lose all abilities and become 1/1 until end of turn
3/4

Interesting effect but it's not easily tutorable, if you want to eliminate an opponents lockpiece that is stopping the combo (e.g. Revoker) it just seems worse than Aether Spellbomb. It is nice that it works with pingers (e.g. Ballista) to kill things but I don't think that's worth playing a 4 mana non-artifact creature that doesn't really do anything else

kombatkiwi

01-29-2019, 09:37 AM

4 Arcum Dagsson
3 Trinket Mage
3 Grand Architect
3 Trophy Mage
3 Sai, Master Thopterist

5 Tezzeret the Seeker

0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Opal
0 Tormod's Crypt
0 Lotus Petal
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Pithing Needle
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Guardian Idol
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Winter Orb
2 Grim Monolith
2 Defense Grid
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Thousand Year Elixir
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Staff of Domination
5 Citanul Flute
5 Paradox Engine
7 Spine of Ish Sah

0 Hangarback Walker
0 Walking Ballista
0 Memnite
0 Ornithopter
2 Silver Myr
2 Plague Myr
2 Manakin
2 Millikin
2 Hedron Crawler
2 Spellskite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Etherium Sculptor
2 Myr Retriever
2 Pili-Pala
3 Metalworker
3 Junk Diver
3 Skyscanner
4 Lodestone Golem

2 Copy Artifact
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Power Artifact

2 Reshape
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Fabricate

0 Pact of Negation
2 Mana Drain
3 Whir of Invention

Mishra's Workshop
Strip Mine
Seat of the Synod
Darksteel Citadel
Inventor's Fair
Mishra's Factory
Inkmoth Nexus
Blinkmoth Nexus
Scalding Tarn
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Phyrexia's Core
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Tolaria West
Academy Ruins
Buried Ruin
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Cavern of Souls
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island
Island

95 cards

I slotted Sai into the deck because the activated ability is serviceable and I realised it's bonkers with Clamp

One thing that has me semi-interested is Coveted Jewel and how strong it is if you can copy it. Sculpting Steel and Metamorph potentially become 0-mana Recalls if you have Jewel on the battlefield, and if you have cast Arcum only once then Echo Storm + Jewel nets you 1 mana and draws you 6 cards. The last few slots of the deck therefore could be something like Jewel + Sculpting Steel + Metamorph + Kuldotha Forgemaster

Otherwise cards on the shortlist include
- Quicksmith Spy
- Lion's Eye Diamond
- Retrofitter Foundry
- Gush / Reverse Engineer/ Thoughtcast / Thirst for Knowledge / Remora / M19 Tezzeret
- Voltaic Key
- Thought Prison (this is one of those cards I want to be good like Possessed Portal and Mindslaver but unfortunately it most likely just isn't)
- Static Orb / Sphere of Resistance

kombatkiwi

03-16-2020, 08:03 AM

Updates / thoughts on the deck after over a year:

- Paradox Engine has been banned which unfortunately de-powers the deck by a lot. Rings/monolith is now the go-to infinite combo again

- Some people suggest playing the combo of Isochron Scepter plus Dramatic Reversal, which I don't think is worth it, as Isochron scepter has little-to-no synergy with the rest of the deck and Reversal is not (easily) tutorable. Power Artifact is similarly this kind of incidental "it doesn't do much by itself but can be part of a clean infinite if drawn with the right piece" but it combos with more different cards (2x Monoliths instead of 1x Scepter) and the monoliths are cards you would be playing in the deck anyway, unlike Scepter. The upside of the scepter combo is that it also untaps Arcum when you assemble it, potentially letting you search for the kill spell and win immediately from only 1 natural Arcum activation, but this requires a lot of things to go right (naturally drawing the Reversal and then having enough creatures to sac to Arcum, and also having enough mana-rocks to go infinite while paying 2 for Scepter each time)

- Citanul Flute was only 'discovered' for the deck to enable the combo with Paradox Engine, but even though Engine is banned now, I don't think Flute should be replaced (e.g. by Myr Turbine). It is similar in terms of making free creatures (by paying 0 to tutor for a 0-mana creature) and it has additional relevant utility by searching for various other creatures. Some suggest a 'combo' with Myr Turbine and Unwinding Clock (you use Arcum to search for Myr Turbine, then the next search you sac a Myr to get Thousand-year Elixir, untap Arcum with Elixir and sac the 2nd Myr to get Unwinding Clock, then every turn from then onward you get 1 free search assuming you have an artifact to pay 1 for the Elixir activation). I don't like this combo because it spends 2 tinkers just to get set up, and Clock and Turbine aren't very good cards to have in your deck. (Outside of this combo Clock is basically a brick, and Myr Turbine is mostly worse than Flute, with the notable exception that casting Memnites through your own spheres is sometimes annoying).

- Mystic Forge has been released, which is possibly an attractive card both for being a standalone value engine and for the infinite combo with a cost reducer + Divining Top. The reason why my initial enthusiasm has died down is Grafdigger's Cage is one of the most popular pieces of disruption in the format due to how popular Protean Hulk is, so you don't want other people's Cages to incidentally hit you. Also, because Cage doesn't interact with your core strategy (or any card in your deck, barring a rare situation where you might want to Reshape/Whir an artifact creature into play) you want to play Cage yourself.

- Mirror of the Forebears is possibly a strong card for this deck. Naming artificer allows you to get an Arcum copy later, which is a potentially better trick than a card like Magewright's Stone because:
1. The copy is still an artifact, so it can tinker itself without needing an additional fodder.
2. If Mirror has been in play since the start of your turn you can play Arcum and then immediately copy it, so rather than get a free tinker you instead get a pseudo-haste effect.
Both of these plays involve legend-ruling the original Arcum away but I can see this being worth it in many situations.

- Corridor Monitor has a similar effect to the above Mirror, in that once Arcum has resolved it counts as a "free" search all by itself (untaps arcum and acts as fodder to sac, in one card). Additionally, it is searchable from Citanul Flute, so in a situation where you were 'stuck' without fodder, you can tinker for flute, get memnite, take your next turn, pay 4 mana to get corridor monitor and play it, and then you get 2 tinkers that turn to "catch up" from the turn you "skipped" to search for flute. In further turns you can pay 2 mana for flute to get Myr Retriever then 4 mana to Retreive Corridor Monitor and get 2 tinkers again, but if the game gets to that point you're probably winning anyway. Similarly, in any situation where you want to tutor for a particular artifact (e.g. you want to search for Spine to immediately destroy an opponent's permanent), if you would have 3U left over you can use Corridor Monitor to also put Flute into play tapped from your deck for free, so you are keeping up with the necessary interaction but you still have resources to follow up with another play next turn.

- Crashing Drawbridge is a very straightforward new addition. 2 mana artifact creature that can give your whole team haste has obvious application.

- God Pharaoh's Statue is a card that went under my radar at first. 6 mana seems like a lot for a sphere-effect, but the deck wants a card for the following situation:
a) Arcum has resolved and can activate, but you don't have the resources to activate it more than once. (So you can't combo off this turn)
b) You expect that if you don't disrupt your opponents this turn, they will win, so you want to disrupt the opponents, and not use an Arcum activation to only set up some advantage for your next turn. (In a 4 player competitive game this is true almost 100% of the time).
c) You want an effect that can disrupt all opponents, rather than target only one
d) Ideally you want the effect to both stop your opponents from winning and also protect Arcum somehow, so that after you have made it safely to your next turn you can try to combo off.
Options that have been considered for this effect in the past are:
1. Possessed Portal: Extremely powerful effect but at 8 mana is difficult to cast if drawn, and depending on the situation it is not totally reliable at ensuring you end up in a more favourable position than your opponents.
2. Winter Orb: Ok at locking down the opponent's spells while not affecting you much, but in more cutthroat games most opponents won't be affected by this much either. (Too many manarocks / manadorks).
3. Mindslaver: Requiring 4 additional mana to use is a problem, and while you can sometimes use one player's resources to screw over the others it also suffers from the "targeting one player" issue.
4. Trinisphere: Usually the most effective card at stopping the opponents from casting spells, but has no effect on opponents trying to ramp into something big, and the symmetry can be annoying.
God Pharaoh's Statue is the perfect mix of these attributes:
- 6 mana is on the pricy side but considerably less than 8. (Overall the manacost is not too important).
- Same strength as Trinisphere on 1-mana spells, only slightly worse against 0-mana spells, and better against everything else
- Doesn't affect you at all
So it's a potent card, and I can see it frequently being the go-to artifact in situations where assembling a combo is not immediately possible. (Sadly it's legendary so you can't copy it, otherwise that would enable a very strong play pattern, but following it up with Tangle Wire or something should be similar).

- Scrapyard Recombiner is a new tutor that does a lot of interesting things:
a) At worst it's an artifact creature and Arcum can eat it.
b) Is an outlet for infinite mana because it searches for Ballista.
c) Can get a 'free' tinker from Arcum by searching for Corridor Monitor.
d) Can help to assemble an infinite by searching for Metalworker.
e) It can actually complete that infinite by searching for Voltaic Construct. (Not sure if this is worth playing or not, but it is notable that by playing Metalworker from Recombiner on one turn, the next turn you probably have enough resources to tutor for Voltaic Construct, play that and go off for infinite mana, then use that mana to untap Recombiner with Voltaic and search for Ballista to win immediately). Unfortunately Voltaic Construct has almost zero interaction with the rest of the deck, and you already have a 2-card infinite with Metalworker that is tutorable by everything else (Staff).
f) Can grind advantageby searching for Scrap Trawler or Hangarback Walker
g) It can sac itself to modular onto Ballista if you desperately need to kill something
Overall I don't know if this card is worth playing but it's certainly very interesting/close.
If I did play this card I would likely add Voltaic Construct and cut the Pili Pala combo.

- Tribute Mage
Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are both worth playing in my opinion, but Treasure Mage is not, and neither is this new one I don't think.
To summarise:
a) Trinket Mage gets all the overpowered cards in the deck (e.g. Mana Crypt), most of the best disruption (e.g. Grafdigger's Cage), Memnite if all you need is an artifact creature, and is an outlet for infinite mana (Ballista).
b) Trophy Mage gets most (all?) of the A+B combos (Basalt Monolith, Rings of Brighthearth, Metalworker, Staff of Domination) and is an outlet for infinite mana (Staff).
c) Treasure Mage is obviously not great because the deck only has a handful of things it can even search for and most of them you want to tinker directly from your deck into play anyway (e.g. Spine). It's not an outlet for infinite mana.
d) Tribute Mage can't search for mana-rocks effectively (Mana Crypt / Sol Ring obviously much better than Grim Monolith or Fellwar Stone), doesn't help to assemble infinite combos, and it doesn't act as an outlet for infinite mana unless you also play a bad card like Illuminated Folio or Sacred Armory

- Emry
Is potentially strong, but the deck doesn't have too many self-mill effects to help enable it. The deck probably already has enough grindy recursion options available (like Scrap Trawler) so it's probably not worth considering one that's not easily tutorable and is a nonbo with Cage.

- Empowered Autogenerator
Costs a lot of mana and doesn't do anything the deck cares about. Once it has enough charge counters on it you can go infinite with Filigree Sages but this takes so much mana to set up and the cards aren't worth playing by themselves.

- Damping Sphere
Is more appealing now because the main combo doesn't involve chaining a bunch of spells with Paradox/Flute, but still might not be worth it

- Conqueror's Flail
Not a very new card, but has been brought to my attention recently as an analogue of Defense Grid with slightly different pros/cons

- Karn the Great Creator
One-sided Null Rod is good disruption in EDH, but 4 mana is quite a lot, the animate-artifact ability is not super exciting and the 'outside the game' ability doesn't function without sideboards. It might be able to get something back from exile every now and then, but I don't know if the card is worth playing overall.

- Urza
Individually none of the effects are worth playing for 2UU but together maybe it is good enough
1) Makes an artifact creature for Arcum food
2) Pseudo-academy mana generator
3) Outlet for infinite mana

kombatkiwi

06-29-2020, 05:18 AM

M21 has one new interesting card:

Chromatic Orrery {7}
Artifact
You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color.
{T}: add {C}{C}{C}{C}
{5},{T}: Draw a card for each color of permanent you control

The first interesting thing is that this is effectively a mana rock that taps for UUUU, which is a more powerful effect than Gilded Lotus. Adding more mana than this from 1 artifact requires a lot of extra effort (e.g. Nyx Lotus or Empowered Autogenerator). While I don't think that Gilded Lotus is a card that the deck should play, it at least is an effect that can be useful in a variety of situations. (E.g. you can tutor this out and pass the turn leaving UUUU up to cast a counterspell, or if you have a card in your hand that you would prefer to cast compared to tutoring an artifact from your library, then you can search for this and then have enough mana to cast the card that you want).

The other interesting thing about this new card is that it's a 2-card win-the-game combo with Filigree Sages. It taps to add 4 and then you pay 3 to untap it, giving infinite mana, and then you can use that mana to activate the "draw card" ability of the Orrery while untapping it with Sages to draw your entire library. Filigree Sages is kind of clunky/inefficient in most situations, as being 4cmc makes it hard to cast and having to pay 3 mana to untap an artifact means that situations where its ability is useful are rare. (It can't generate mana with things like Crypt/Vault, only maybe Metalworker, and paying 3 mana to e.g. get an additional search from Citanul Flute might not be worth it in many situations). However, the upside is the combo is a 2-artifact infinite that doesn't care about summoning sickness. These combos in the past either care about summoning sickness (Metalworker + Staff) or only make infinite mana without a wincon (e.g. Rings + Monolith). This combo might be worth playing for this reason, possibly with a higher emphasis on things that can tutor for the pieces (e.g. Kuldotha Forgemaster) or things that have synergy with the pieces. (e.g. Voltaic Key is strong with Orrery, effectively adding 3 mana,, and is also good with other tapping artifacts, which may also be synergistic with Filigree Sages. What these artifacts actually are, I don't know. Unban Time Vault).

kombatkiwi

05-14-2021, 04:29 AM

I just realised in my previous reply my first impression of Orrery was that it only added 4 mana?!? Obviously I couldn't comprehend the jump from 3 mana rocks (Lotus, Dynamo etc) to 5

Current List

Commander [1]
Arcum Dagsson

Lands [35]
Mishra's Workshop
Strip Mine
Seat of the Synod
Darksteel Citadel
Inventor's Fair
Mishra's Factory
Inkmoth Nexus
Blinkmoth Nexus
Scalding Tarn
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Phyrexia's Core
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Tolaria West
Academy Ruins
Buried Ruin
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Cavern of Souls
Blast Zone
Gemstone Caverns
Urza's Saga
Command Beacon
Homeward Path
8x Island

Possibly too many colourless utility lands, you can cut the more marginal ones (e.g. Strip Mine) for more islands
Urza's Saga seems great and I hope there will be other good cards from MH2

Creatures [17]
Hangarback Walker
Walking Ballista
Memnite
Silver Myr
Plague Myr
Manakin
Millikin
Hedron Crawler
Crashing Drawbridge
Spellskite
Phyrexian Revoker
Myr Retriever
Corridor Monitor
Metalworker
Lodestone Golem
Filigree Sages
Trinket Mage

Metalworker feels borderline as it feels expensive to play a 3-mana dork and I am no longer playing the Staff combo
Lodestone is possibly too expensive for a sphere but I think I like it for now
All the other ones still seem solid

Artifacts [32]
Mana Crypt
Mox Opal
Tormod's Crypt
Lotus Petal
Jeweled Lotus
Expedition Map
Mana Vault
Pithing Needle
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Aether Spellbomb
Sensei's Divining Top
Grafdigger's Cage
Manifold Key
Voltaic Key
Retrofitter Foundry
Guardian Idol
Lightning Greaves
Grim Monolith
Defense Grid
Thorn of Amethyst
Sphere of Resistance
Damping Sphere
Tangle Wire
Thousand Year Elixir
Trinisphere
Basalt Monolith
Rings of Brighthearth
Citanul Flute
God Pharaohs Statue
Spine of Ish Sah
Chromatic Orrery

Jeweled Lotus was obviously a big add from commander legends.
I cut winter orb because against the competitive meta nearly everybody has the fast artifact mana and/or cheap manadorks, I think it's more of a pubstomp card vs casual decks that have a lot of Rampant Growth effects.
I'm still thinking about Static Orb though, in the vein of e.g. Tangle Wire.
Not sure if both Crypt and Cage are needed but you probably want at least one of them.
Damping Sphere was added because without Paradox Engine your combos don't involve casting a bunch of spells in 1 turn.
Voltaic Keys have seemed not great in the past but they add so much mana in combo with Orrery, so you can go Orrery -> ton of mana -> tutor for filigree sages. There is also an infinite combo with Orrery + Rings + Voltaic Key.
Retrofitter is just a decent card by itself, good with Urza's Saga, is an outlet for infinite mana, draw engine with clamp etc, but a lot of those functions are already done by hangarback so it might not be totally necessary

Other spells [12]

Pact of Negation
Mana Drain
Cyclonic Rift
Resculpt
Whir of Invention
Fierce Guardianship
Reshape
Transmute Artifact
Fabricate
Artificer's Intuition
Power Artifact
Tezzeret the Seeker

All the tutors are pretty good and I still think most other players of this deck underrate Artificer's Intuition
Resculpt seems good as a catch-all answer to Null Rod, Ouphe, Cursed Totem, Opposition Agent, Drannith Magistrate etc
Power Artifact I think is still fine just to mise the combo with Monoliths but I could see an argument for cutting it

Thats 97 Cards

Plausible adds
- More targeted removal (e.g. Repeal, Transmogrifying Wand, Crystal Shard)
- More lockpieces (Static Orb, Rhystic Study, Arcane Lab, Remora)
- More counterspells
- More artifact creatures (Etherium Sculptor, Voltaic Servant, Perilous Myr etc, Serrated Biskelion is also semi-interesting with all the voltaic key but probably too expensive)
- Mana sources (Mox Diamond, Arcane Signet / Mind Stone and all the other similar variant)
- Card draw (Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer)
- Torpor Orb (Decent vs Thassas Oracle but it disables your own Corridor Monitor and Trinket Mage)
- Emry (quite a powerful card but hurt by your own grafdigger's cage. Without Hulk in the format I think the biggest upside of Cage is disabling Elsha but there are so many Sphere of Resistance effects in the deck that you are probably well-covered against that anyway, so Emry could be a good swap potentially)
- Other unique cards (Urza, Copy Artifact, Null Brooch...)