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John Cox
07-24-2011, 07:08 PM
Introduction and Explanation


People sometimes call Ichorid the "crazy backwards upside down deck". It wants it's opponent's creatures to live, it's creatures to die, it's deck to go in the graveyard and it wants not to draw cards. Many people will have no Idea what's happening when you're playing it and often it will feel like you're playing alone.
The Dredge mechanic was first printed during the ravnica block on green and black cards and was origonaly considered to be a junk ability. The first card featuring dredge to be seen as playable was Life From the Loam and was used in decks like Confinement Aggro Loam and Enchantress. The mechanic did not gain an archetype of its own until one block later when dread return was printed in time spiral. The deck worked by using the dredge mechanic to grow it's grave yard. Over a few turns creatures like Narcomoeba and Ichorid came onto the battlefield and are sacrificed to either wreck your opponents hand with Cabal Therapy, or put a game winning creature out with Dread Return all the while making Zombies with Bridge From Below . The deck usually won by turn 4. Manaless Ichorid in legacy did not begin to take root as a serious archetype until the following list placed. This variant increases speed, consistency and reliability of tradional dedge at the cost of losing fate out against a turn zero leyline of the void.



Manaless Ichorid Nicholas Rausch's 1st place SCG Cincinatti 7/17/2011 (228 Players)


4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Sideboard:

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Gigapede
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
4 Contagion
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress




This variant of the deck will always choose to be on the draw over the play(to have 8 cards on turn one and naturally discard), And you should also always have a dredger in your hand. These points are so important that I would also only advise to mulligan is if you don't have a dredger.
The goal of manaless Ichorid is to Draw, Discard, then Dredge, using your natural discard as your discard outlet. To do this you need eight cards in hand; and because of this strategy, you'll always be able to dredge on your draw step and discard at end of turn. One key advantage to using your discard step as your discard engine is that you misstep pretty much all counter magic in the format and the format has more now than ever.

There are several key tricks to maintaining this through instant speed hate like tormod's crypt and ravenous trap. You can use a draw effect (like street wraith) in response to the graveyard exile, this will let you save the dredger while your graveyard gets nuked. It's also usually best to open with a gigapede or phantasmagorian since you don't have to commit a dredger to the graveyard until you're ready to draw this way. Regardless of hate your ways of winning with this deck hinge on making the most of each of the following cards.

Bloodghast

Ichorid

Narcomoeba

nether shadow

Bridge from below

Dread Return



Bloodghast : The card that allows Bloodghast to enter the battlefield is Dakmor Salvage and is the worst dredger in the deck, and each Dakmor Salvage Should only be used once so make the most on your Dakmor Salvage by making sure you're going to either win or stop disaster by dredging it. There is a general consensus that this is the weakest card in the deck.

Ichorid: these should come out ever upkeep, and will help make zombies for you with Bridge from Below .

Narcomoeba: This is the best fodder for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return as it comes into play the turn it is dredged.

Nether Shadow: Remember to bring this out every turn if possible. Also remember that in legacy we have to keep our graveyards in the order they are created; however when we dredge each pile that comes off the top of our decks goes into the graveyard simultaneously. This means we can stack the Nether Shadows at the bottom of each dredge pile.

Bridge from below: be careful when attacking or blocking to make sure you don't exile this card. Cabal Therapy and Dread Return are particularly good at making tokens with this when you have multiples in your graveyards.

Dread Return: There are a host of creatures available to you to use with this. They include, but are not limited to

Flame-kin zealot
Inkwell Leviathan
Ancestor's Chosen
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Blazing Archon
Stormtide Leviathan
Terastodon
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Woodfall Primus
River Kelpie
Spinx of Lost Truths




As a rule you should have several creatures that draw cards when they come into play (river kelpie, Sphinx of lost truths etc) and at least on finisher in the deck (Iona, Flame kin zealot). You also want as many Dread Returns as possible so you can reanimate them early and often.



Card Pool



Many of the cards that other dredge versions use are usable in this deck. Some of the ones I should mention are,

Golgari Grave-Troll /Stinkweed Imp /Golgari Thug /Shambling Shell: These are what make the deck work and fuel your graveyard. generally the more the card dredges the better. Golgari Grave-Troll is also a good target for Dread return.

Gigapede and Phantasmagorian: These allow you to discard more than one card per turn and can protect you from hate.

Nether Shadow: This deck doesn't have the tieless tribe or putrid imp that traditional dredge has, this is a warm body that takes it's place.

Shambling Shell: Running 16 dredgers is a must since this deck needs one in it's opening hand, this is better than darkblast because it can feed Ichorid

Dakmor Salvage / Bloodghast : This deck doesn't have the tieless tribe or putrid imp that traditional legacy ichorid has, these are a warm body to replace them.

Street wraith / gitaxian probe : These provide early explosiveness or protection, Gitaxian probe also allows you to be more accurate with Cabal Therapy .

Ichorid : these should come out ever upkeep, and will make zombies for you if you have a bridge from below out.

Narcomoeba : This is the best fodder for cabal therapy and dread return as it comes into play the turn it is dredged.

Cabal Therapy : These are your disruption and create tokens with Bridge From Below .

Faerie macabre : this is graveyard hate that feeds ichorid


Current Suggested list


4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell
3 bloodghast
3 dakmor salvage
3 faerie macabre
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


//Side Board
4 Chancellor of The Annex
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Angel of despair
1 terastodon
1 faerie macabre
4 leyline of the void


The flex spots are Iona, woodfall primus, dakmor salvage + blood ghast, and street wraith and dread return 3-4. Beyond whats mentioned above mishra's bauble and urza's bauble are being tried by some In these spots, as well as Lion's eye diamond, Deep analysis and desperate ravings while others are trying Dryad arbor so that Nature's claim can make it into the sideboard.

Important side board cards are
Contagion
Mindbreak Trap
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity
Mental Misstep
Tormod's Crypt
Faerie macabre
Surgical extraction
Chancellor of the annex

Additional info



Kevin Trudeu shares his list on MTG The Source
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Ichorid/page85

Alexander Lapping
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22094_Deck_Tech_Manaless_Dredge_With_Alexander_Lapping.html

Article about manaless dredge in legacy on Channel Fireball
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/recurring-nightmares-dredge-returns/

Nicholas Rausch Videos
Finals
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgcin-leg-finals-caleb-durward-vs-nicholas-rausch-5398125
Round 4
http://blip.tv/scglive/scgcin-leg-rd-4-nicholas-rauch-vs-bill-barger-5398637

NecroYawgmoth
07-24-2011, 08:32 PM
...or to discard a dredger to a gigapede or Phantasmagorian in response to your graveyard being exiled. this will let you keep a dredger in your graveyard as a last resort.



How? I mean... if you discard a Dredger in Response to the Graveexiling, the Dredger is also exiled >.<



Also, I see how this deck has much more graveyard interaction as normal Dredge, BUT it loses to Relic as hard as it loses to Leyline.

Lets say, I open with Relic, you want to play save and discard Phantasmagorian. I use the tap -> Relic, to remove your Phantasmagorian, you respond with discarding 3. I use Relic for the sac effect. You have 5 handcards now, thats like 3 timewalks for you, until you can start dredging again. A lot of decks can build up enough pressure to beat you in this time. OK, you may get 1-2 Dredges maybe, if the deck is slow, but that shouldn't be enough with drawspells to ensure a win at all...

I understand this whole "huge graveyard interaction thing" for cost of all explosiveness, but how can this deck win, in a meta where more than...like 7 graveyard hates are played in the top8, srsly wtf.

Not wanting to be the big nay-sayer, but IMO this deck loses more matches than normal Dredge in EVERY meta where a kinda normal anmount of hate is played...

Combo seems like a huge flaw MU also.

Greenpoe
07-24-2011, 09:22 PM
Doesn't relying on DDD turn Thoughtseize into a Timewalk? Doesn't it make SB Leylines terrible choices, since you're Timewalking yourself? This could possibly be avoided by using Unmask to discard a dredger or grab some hate or fight combo.

ajfirecracker
07-24-2011, 09:45 PM
Doesn't relying on DDD turn Thoughtseize into a Timewalk? Doesn't it make SB Leylines terrible choices, since you're Timewalking yourself? This could possibly be avoided by using Unmask to discard a dredger or grab some hate or fight combo.

Thoughtseize is a Time-Walk if and only if it happens on the first turn.

Except for Tendrils, we should beat all of the Thoughtseize decks by much more than a turn, which means that despite this we're still pretty happy. Compare this to Thoughtseize against Mana Dredge (especially Lion's Eye Diamond Dredge), where it sometimes does nothing but usually buys 2-3 turns.

Regarding Leylines:
I think Sanctity is just never worth it, but there are definitely situations (on paper) where it's awesome.
the Void is pretty clearly awesome if it's worth running at all. Against any opposing graveyard decks, it should easily buy back the turn you spent putting it out.
I personally prefer Bojuka Bog in this slot, as it's just as uncounterable as Leyline, you can draw it, and it doesn't Time Walk you. As long as Manaless Dredge is getting a lot of press, though, Leyline is just better.


How? I mean... if you discard a Dredger in Response to the Graveexiling, the Dredger is also exiled >.<



Also, I see how this deck has much more graveyard interaction as normal Dredge, BUT it loses to Relic as hard as it loses to Leyline.

Lets say, I open with Relic, you want to play save and discard Phantasmagorian. I use the tap -> Relic, to remove your Phantasmagorian, you respond with discarding 3. I use Relic for the sac effect. You have 5 handcards now, thats like 3 timewalks for you, until you can start dredging again. A lot of decks can build up enough pressure to beat you in this time. OK, you may get 1-2 Dredges maybe, if the deck is slow, but that shouldn't be enough with drawspells to ensure a win at all...

I understand this whole "huge graveyard interaction thing" for cost of all explosiveness, but how can this deck win, in a meta where more than...like 7 graveyard hates are played in the top8, srsly wtf.

Not wanting to be the big nay-sayer, but IMO this deck loses more matches than normal Dredge in EVERY meta where a kinda normal anmount of hate is played...

Combo seems like a huge flaw MU also.

The normal amount of graveyard hate lately has been 10-15 cards of real hate in the Top 8, possibly with some irrelevant Extirpate and Surgical Extraction alongside. SCG Indy, for example, had scant few hate cards but still no Mana Dredge (this was before popular interest in Manaless) made the Top 8 or the Top 16... clearly more was going on than just graveyard hate.

Depending on how you build it, it's typical for 1/8-1/4 of the deck more to let you play through Relic. Simply cycling Street Wraith in response to the tap is particularly excellent.

Combo is a big problem. The good news is, you can dedicate at least half the sideboard to it, if you want, and you're playing a reasonably fast deck, and you have a bunch of Cabal Therapy to help you out.

John Cox
07-24-2011, 10:00 PM
Discard effects, combo, and some graveyard hate are some of the reason you want Leyline of sanctity in the sideboard, it's strong enough that it's worth spending a turn doing nothing. The only piece of grave hate that this really auto looses to is Leyline of the void so Ichorid/faster combo are why its there. Faster combo is indeed a problem for this deck so feel free to look into mindbreak trap also.

On the problem with Gigapede/Phantasmagorian. I'm working through the rules for it right now but the concept came from the MTG salvation primer for manaless Ichorid located here, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7021370&postcount=1
It's mentioned in the first spoiler.

ajfirecracker
07-24-2011, 10:31 PM
Discard effects, combo, and some graveyard hate are some of the reason you want Leyline of sanctity in the sideboard, it's strong enough that it's worth spending a turn doing nothing. The only piece of grave hate that this really auto looses to is Leyline of the void so Ichorid/faster combo are why its there. Faster combo is indeed a problem for this deck so feel free to look into mindbreak trap also.

On the problem with Gigapede/Phantasmagorian. I'm working through the rules for it right now but the concept came from the MTG salvation primer for manaless Ichorid located here, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7021370&postcount=1
It's mentioned in the first spoiler.

Leyline of Sanctity, without some way to protect it, is absurdly bad against Tendrils or High Tide, which are the two most worrisome combo decks.

Mindbreak Trap is a little better but still not awesome.

The cards I'd recommend trying right now are: Mental Misstep, Chancellor of the Annex, and Lion's Eye Diamond (with LED you use it to put a bunch of draw effects on the stack and sacrifice LED in response).

Phantasmagorian's main purpose is to help you discard your hand (often responding to the ability with an instance of itself in order to bin 6 or even 9 cards rather than just 3) in order to combo out. Usually, you won't activate Phantasmagorian's discard ability until the turn you win (or the end-step before that).

Gigapede's purposes are to help smooth out the super creature-heavy builds and to act as extra Phantasmagorian. I don't like him.

People say Gigapede allows you to play around graveyard sweepers but I've yet to see any argument that actually supports that at all.

Final Fortune
07-24-2011, 11:13 PM
That primer is inaccurate, Manaless Dredge was (and is still) being played with the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis engine before the cantrip engine in MTGO Classic before it was ported to Legacy and nobody took the deck seriously until Bridge from Below was printed in Future Sight.

That aside, Thought Seize isn't the Time Walk people think it is, the opponent has to spend a mana, a card, 2 life and a turn to put one of your business spells into your graveyard for you, a lot of the times you just thank your opponent for discarding a Nether Shadow, draw a card on your turn, pass the turn and the worse thing the card did was accelerate him into Stoneforge Mystic. It's really not the end of the world that people are making it out to people, at least compared to Leyline of the Void.

Relic of Progenitus tho' is really fucking up my day, I ran into it last night and I think it's the real reason to play Leyline of Sanctity in the SB to avoid the lock, because it's like a Leyline of the Void that people actually play.

ajfirecracker
07-24-2011, 11:44 PM
That primer is inaccurate, Manaless Dredge was (and is still) being played with the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis engine before the cantrip engine in MTGO Classic before it was ported to Legacy and nobody took the deck seriously until Bridge from Below was printed in Future Sight.

...

Relic of Progenitus tho' is really fucking up my day, I ran into it last night and I think it's the real reason to play Leyline of Sanctity in the SB to avoid the lock, because it's like a Leyline of the Void that people actually play.

That deck sounds terrible... Cephalid Coliseum can only be activated off of Lion's Eye Diamond, and only then if you don't take any actual mulligans. The same goes (not quite as strongly) for Deep Analysis.

How well you can play through Relic depends on your list. Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Phantasmagorian, and the Baubles all let you play through it. (also fetchlands if you run Dryad Arbor)

KevinTrudeau
07-25-2011, 12:40 AM
Yeah, Baubles are also more valuable than Gitaxian Probe in the sense they protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus, which is the worst of the SB cards we have to deal with. All I can say is thank god players are diversifying their SB hate cards, because Relic of Progenitus is probably worse than Leyline of the Void in that it's equivalently just as good when drawn and in addition to that an extremely powerful top deck.

Anyway, I had a pretty good showing with this list on Saturday.

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gigapede
4 Golgar Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

The nice thing is every card does something in your graveyard other than Gitaxian Probe, even a Shambling Shell feels like an Ancestral Recal every turn.

How do Baubles protect the deck from Relic of Progenitus? If you play one t1 after the opponent plays a t1 Relic, you can't discard; even if you'd be able to draw that same turn, they'd EOT tap Relic, you'd remove the Bauble, then during their upkeep, tap and exile your dredger.

EDIT: Nvm, I suppose you could drop Bauble, pass, t2 discard, then sac Bauble when needed in resp to the tap ability since the opponent doesn't get priority during the cleanup step. That's another fine reason to run Baubles in place of Chancellor of the Forge.

The maindeck I'm proposing right now for testing:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

(The above shall henceforth be called the 40 card 'core')

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths (or, if you're extremely paranoid like I am sometimes, -1 Sphinx for +1 Angel of Despair)
1 River Kelpie
1 Flame-kin Zealot

The number of cards for consideration in the sideboard right now are still as vast as the beauty of the state of Minnesota; I'll get that figured out after I get the maindeck nailed down. Additional Baubles in the board to fight Relic and potentially improve the fast combo matchup are certainly not out of the question.

Final Fortune
07-25-2011, 01:05 AM
That deck sounds terrible... Cephalid Coliseum can only be activated off of Lion's Eye Diamond, and only then if you don't take any actual mulligans. The same goes (not quite as strongly) for Deep Analysis.

How well you can play through Relic depends on your list. Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Phantasmagorian, and the Baubles all let you play through it. (also fetchlands if you run Dryad Arbor)

That deck was the scourge of MTGO Classic for an entire season and can actually take mulligans and race Storm, play it before you judge it;

4 Serum Powder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2xSphinx of Lost Truth
2xFlame Kin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below

SB
4 Gigapede
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Greater Mossdog

The idea is speed has more marginal utility game 1 vs aggro and combo than your SB has marginal utility vs hate, so you use your SB to transform between speed game 1 and resiliency game 2 and just completely disregard interaction.

The problem tho' is game 2, because a clever opponent is going to choose to draw instead of play, which forces you to pass and give them an 8 card starting hand. You have to have a way of punishing this by being more aggressive.

@Kevin

The Bauble doesn't protect the Dredger, it just stops you from scooping by turning Relic of Progenitus into a double Time Walk.

Phantasmagorian is a core card by any definition, but Gigapedge and Nethershadow may be better in the SB and replaced with cantrips. Given how worthless the SB is versus hate, I think SBing the "grinding engine" of Gigapede, Nether Shadow, Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast and MDing the "cantrip engine" of Gitaxian Probe and the 8 Baubles with 2xSphinx of Lost Truths and 2xFlame Kin Zealots may be the way to go if you want to emphasize Dread Returns game 1. I used a similar strategy on Saturday with swapping between Gigapede and Nether Shadow in the MD for Dakmore Salvage/Bloodghast and Baubles in the SB and sometimes felt like i was playing the deck backwards the whole day.

I'm really on the fence about whether or not the deck should play the Sphinx/Zealot engine or the Chancellor of the Forge engine for the Dread Return package tho', because resolving Dread Return is usually GG anyway and Chancellor of the Forge actually lets you resolve Dread Return faster and IS a Dread Return target on top of that.

KevinTrudeau
07-25-2011, 01:57 AM
Phantasmagorian is a core card, but the correct amount of Phantasmagorian is still up in the air, which is why I've excluded it so far from the shorthand 'core'.

Chancellor of the Forge isn't completely out of the question yet, but I want to try out Baubles in its place for a little bit, considering Baubles can replicate the effect of receiving a token by digging deeper for Narcomoebas, Ichorids, and creatures to stack on top of Nether Shadows (and Nether Shadows themselves). I'm intrigued by your maindeck/sideboard hypothesis; cutting the maindeck Shadows for Baubles, or cutting both sets of Chancellors and Shadows for eight Baubles might prove to be the best maindeck configuration, as I do think that this is a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid deck like its orthodox counterpart.

ajfirecracker
07-25-2011, 02:22 AM
Relic of Progenitus is okay against this deck, but it's only great if they get it turn 1 and we don't have any of the truly great ways of playing through it. It's like a less-conditional, less-powerful Leyline of the Void. Clearly those are the only 2 cards that are reasonable (read: awesome) against this deck, which I think is pretty tolerable, so long as we can convince people not to run them.

@Kevin - I like your decklist, but I think you'll probably find that the extra Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian aren't necessary. In any case, it's close enough to mine that I have a really hard time complaining about it. I think 40 cards is actually a little small for the core. I seem to be the only person who thinks you don't need all 4 Phantasmagorian and all 4 Nether Shadow, so you can almost certainly include at least 2 of each in the core, possibly ignoring me and counting all 8. Additionally, I would be unsurprised if Gitaxian Probe was not considered an auto 4-of in the near future. This could actually displace some number of Dread Return as players try to shoehorn in Bloodghast + Dakmor Salvage alongside the rest of the good cards.

@FinalFortune - I really don't think you even need the grinding package. Grinding out the games is an awesome plan in the relevant matchups (and against some forms of hate), but the faster package is pretty good at grinding out games as well (which I think was Kevin's main point). I think you're probably better off with a combination of very general reactive cards in your sideboard, including Chancellor of the Annex against the Duress decks, and some form anti-combo package.

Edit: After reading up on the LED/manaless list you were discussing, Fortune, it seems like it has a decent chance of winning on Turn 1-2 and a decent chance of winning on turn 6-10 (due to no LED). I don't think that actually helps at all against anything except Belcher or Spanish Inquisition, as even the fastest of the other storm decks will often take a few turns to set up, allowing us to hit them with Cabal Therapy in that window, which implies we'd rather just be more consistent.

Final Fortune
07-25-2011, 03:21 AM
Phantasmagorian is a core card, but the correct amount of Phantasmagorian is still up in the air, which is why I've excluded it so far from the shorthand 'core'.

Chancellor of the Forge isn't completely out of the question yet, but I want to try out Baubles in its place for a little bit, considering Baubles can replicate the effect of receiving a token by digging deeper for Narcomoebas, Ichorids, and creatures to stack on top of Nether Shadows (and Nether Shadows themselves). I'm intrigued by your maindeck/sideboard hypothesis; cutting the maindeck Shadows for Baubles, or cutting both sets of Chancellors and Shadows for eight Baubles might prove to be the best maindeck configuration, as I do think that this is a Dread Return deck instead of a Bridge from Below/Ichorid deck like its orthodox counterpart.

I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.

@AJ

I don't think a reactive SB has the same utility as a SB that plays thru' hate instead of against it, I was really impressed by how SBing into the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package just let me laugh off Tormod's Crypt in my match up vs. Affinity yesterday.

I'm not certain the match up vs. Storm is salvageable, Duress/Thought Seize backed by combo is just a beating and boarding 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Mind Break trap doesn't sound very appealing. Also, can somebody explain to me why the hell people are SBing Cantagion? Nobody plays Yixlid Jailor, and Gutshot is better vs. Yixlid Jailor anyway. I don't get it.

Al of that aside, I'm starting to question whether or not Manaless Dredge is an overreaction to Mental Misstep, because while playing LED Dredge (the Parcher list) either my opponent or I chose to draw game 1 every game and I could just play around Mental Misstep and Daze by discarding my Dredger and sand bagging my Lion's Eye Diamond, Break Through and/or Putrid Imps game 1 and then could board in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Ancient Grudge like normal. My main problem with Manaless Dredge is that game two is just awful, awful, awful if they are smart enough to make you play, pass and start the game with an 8 card hand because there's no opportunity cost they'll miss their chance to counter your spells with Daze or get Cabal Therapied.

Shax
07-25-2011, 03:27 AM
I would like to say I have drawn some ideas from this thread, so lets try to continue the talk about this interesting take on Dredge.

My 75 looks as the following:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Angel of Despair
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Contagion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mental Misstep

It hax a playset of baubles in the main and I side them out game two with the exception of 1 Urza's usually for the quad Leyline of Sanctity barring other Dredge/Reanimator and Mental Misstep. The idea for having Baubles in the board isn't that bad but the deck has alot of wiggle room to work with, and I like the idea of Mindbreak Traps too since they have much more value discard spells are not in the game. Mental Misstep stops Relic, and Leyline does too to a extent. Jailer and Scavenging Ooze are hit by the Contagion which I feel is relevant.

My interesting take on the creature plan is to just win with Troll or Angel destruction and nothing fancy. I do think Bloodghast are needed if you want to play through more hate since more creatures = a better plan Ba. Atleast angel pitches to Ichorid, so game 1 I have alot of consistancy regardless of it opponent wants to hit Baubles with FoW/Counterspell. Games two and three it's pretty luck oriented from there on out.

The finer points of the deck is that it's extremly customizable so theres alot of debate that can be had on what is correct for the mainboard and side. I think Gigapede is actually a card that can be used to play around hate this way. You discard guys with Gigapede every turn to get it back, but in games two when they have a relic and tapping you down for 1 Gigapede finds its way into the graveyard somehow (be it baubly or street wraith at this point,) you swap whatever dredger was gonna be dredged in your graveyard for that fat troll in your hand and Gigapede replacing the troll. I guess if anything Gigapede speeds your dredges consistantly and would improve game one speed for never having to dredge for 3.

If they tap Relic after you DDD and you pitch Gigapede, you can Bauble-Street Wraith it for 1 of those to take the hit, then in their turn make them bust relic on gigapede and friends or tap again for the other fodder cantrip. In your turn dredger hits so the gamestate usually proceeds from there. I don't know, but Gigapede seems like it would smoothen you out on a few corner cases. The case of having no mana I think is something that is right in front of us for tech, but it's harder to justify.

4eak
07-25-2011, 04:14 AM
I'm thinking the general shell looks like this:

// Dredgers - 16
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Free Discard Outlets - 4
4 Phantasmagorian

// Free Dudes - 12
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

// Free Draw - 8
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

// GY-Goodies - 12
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

That leaves us with 8 flex slots, some number of which must be DR targets (so, perhaps only ~4 slots are completely flexible).

Of course, some may have reasons to diverge from that shell, but I think most could agree to this as the generic build.

As for the Flex slots, I think 3 (if not 4) of them are coming to be solidified for me:

+2 Sphinx of Lost Truth (I've actually been happy with 3)
+1 Flame-Kin Zealot

This is a Dread Return deck. You chain Sphinx's until you have a lethal FKZ. It is fairly rare to fizzle, and you win the turn you go off.

I've been trying a bunch of stuff in the last 4 slots. I'm coming around to agree with ajfirecracker, at least to some extent, favoring baubles. The speed of baubles outweighs what something like Gigapede brings to the table.



peace,
4eak

Final Fortune
07-25-2011, 05:00 AM
I go back and forth on Gigapede in the MD or in the SB, right now I'm SBing 4xDakmor Salvage, Bloodghast and Gigapedge, and to me Gigapede appears to be at its best when you combine it with the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine because you have a greater density of threats in your hand that need to get into the graveyard.

The thing about Gigapede is that it's difficult to judge how much speed and consistency it gives the deck, because you'll have those situations where you'll want to get that Cabal Therapy or Bridge from Below into the graveyard as fast as possible and it's impossible to compare the utility of that to just Dredging X more cards.

I definitely think it's the most "cuttable" card in the deck just because it's so much worse than Phantasmagorian and it doesn't do anything that your end step or Cabal Therapy can't do.

I kind of envy Rausch's list just because every card in that deck does something from the graveyard, it's a giant, lumbering pile of inevitability and pretty much what you want to SB your deck into.

unicoerner
07-25-2011, 06:31 AM
Hi,
i haven't tested the manaless build yet. I just feel that being open to the 2 best things opponents can do in the first 2 turns isn't good:
1) Getting killed in the first two turns , can happen to every deck without counter
2) Lakey, Goblin isn't that much of an issue right now, but this can easily be a tough MU.

I feel that Baubles are better than Probes, becasue they can't be Misstepped.... which was the reason to play Manaless.

K1w1
07-25-2011, 07:08 AM
Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

K1w1

Bahamuth
07-25-2011, 07:10 AM
Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

K1w1

You lose to it. Just move on to the next game.

ArtificiallyEnhanced
07-25-2011, 07:47 AM
You lose to it. Just move on to the next game.

What about if I have chancellors of the forge in my opener? They could've kept a bad hand having mulled into LotV, have no gas and 20/10/7/5 turns later you win! :p

Yeah, not gonna happen, is it. Still if you've got the time it's better than autoscooping!!!

slaughtercult
07-25-2011, 08:45 AM
Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.

John Cox
07-25-2011, 01:17 PM
What about if I have chancellors of the forge in my opener? They could've kept a bad hand having mulled into LotV, have no gas and 20/10/7/5 turns later you win! :p

Yeah, not gonna happen, is it. Still if you've got the time it's better than autoscooping!!!
I actually see Dryad Arbor in this decks future at some point so that nature's claim can be run for this reason (in the sideboard). I understand why people like chancellor of the forge but dryad arbor has much more utility and creates a token with bridge from below.

Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.
Ashen ghoul was in early vintage Friggorid lists but ended up being left out of manaless and I don't think it will work here either. Unlike nether shadow you need one land per ghoul, that gets a bit tricky with the rate you go through your deck.

Anusien
07-25-2011, 01:30 PM
As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.

4eak
07-25-2011, 02:04 PM
Being vulnerable to MM is ok. The deck is already open (in some ways) to MM, as it still has Therapy. The issue is really 'how vulnerable' you are to MM.

It does seem odd to play Probe when one major reason to play the deck at all is to avoid MM. Upon closer examination, I think you'll find probe's vulnerability less of a problem. MM, at its best, stops Dredge variants from getting the ball rolling (hitting discard outlets can be gaming winning). Hitting Probe isn't such a big deal though because you're only using probe when you've already got the ball rolling. MM's effect is mitigated by the very nature of the deck.

The deck is designed to be very good at DDD and chaining dredgers, substantially better than other Dredge variants. It can accept untimely counterspells that the other variants simply can't.

You'll DDD, then next turn you'll Probe (going to 7). If they MM, you still have a very good chance of chain dredging (Phantasmagorian contributes -- making it virtually 20 dredge cards in the deck). The odds of you getting "time-walked" because you are at 7-cards and can't DDD are unlikely given the very high odds of flipping over another Dredge/Phant during your next draw step.

Yes, they do get to interact with you. That interaction isn't backbreaking though. Probe speeds the deck up, and the deck sorely needs that when it can get it. If MM would be backbreaking, then don't cast the spell, you can always use it later.

One other option might be to run Bauble instead of probe (if you aren't already running 8 Baubles). But, baubles are not nearly as good as Probe.






peace,
4eak

KevinTrudeau
07-25-2011, 04:07 PM
@Kevin - I like your decklist, but I think you'll probably find that the extra Nether Shadow and Phantasmagorian aren't necessary. In any case, it's close enough to mine that I have a really hard time complaining about it. I think 40 cards is actually a little small for the core. I seem to be the only person who thinks you don't need all 4 Phantasmagorian and all 4 Nether Shadow, so you can almost certainly include at least 2 of each in the core, possibly ignoring me and counting all 8. Additionally, I would be unsurprised if Gitaxian Probe was not considered an auto 4-of in the near future. This could actually displace some number of Dread Return as players try to shoehorn in Bloodghast + Dakmor Salvage alongside the rest of the good cards.

@FinalFortune - I really don't think you even need the grinding package. Grinding out the games is an awesome plan in the relevant matchups (and against some forms of hate), but the faster package is pretty good at grinding out games as well (which I think was Kevin's main point). I think you're probably better off with a combination of very general reactive cards in your sideboard, including Chancellor of the Annex against the Duress decks, and some form anti-combo package.

Edit: After reading up on the LED/manaless list you were discussing, Fortune, it seems like it has a decent chance of winning on Turn 1-2 and a decent chance of winning on turn 6-10 (due to no LED). I don't think that actually helps at all against anything except Belcher or Spanish Inquisition, as even the fastest of the other storm decks will often take a few turns to set up, allowing us to hit them with Cabal Therapy in that window, which implies we'd rather just be more consistent.

I wanted to build a shorthand abbreviation excluding anything that could possibly be cut within reason, but you're right, two Shadows and two Phantasmagorian do seem like a necessary minimum for any iteration of the deck. Therefore, I propose this as the shorthand 'core', so from now on, everyone can just type 'Core [44]' and save some time ('core forty-four' also has a nice ring to it):

Core [44]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell

2 Nether Shadow
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below


I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.

What I meant was that Plan A's overarching goal should be Dread Returning a lethal Flame-kin Zealot as soon as possible in a mindful fashion, with Plan B being falling back on grinding out games with Bridge from Below and Ichorid recursion, since B can act as a function of A; an inverse mentality of fifteen land Dredge, if you will. This is because of the need to outspeed certain decks in Legacy, whether it be Show and Tell, Reanimator, Burn, or the mirror. The deck can slowroll dredge better than any Dredge build before it, so I don't think the deck needs to be ultra-resilient by replacing the four DR targets because it already has more than enough resilience. There is space in Manaless, whereas there really wasn't any room for DR targets in a built-for-consistency fifteen land build.

I found in goldfishing the deck a bit last night that the token Chancellor of the Forge provides wasn't as useful in casting an early Dread Return as I had once thought because by the time you can sacrifice three creatures and animate a Sphinx, you'll usually have, in addition, three or more non-Chancellor creatures to sacrifice anyway; the times when I was able to cast DR before usual because of the token(s), I couldn't reanimate a Sphinx, or if I could, I couldn't maximize the usefulness of one. It's also harder to protect Dread Return with Cabal Therapy when you're banking on Chancellor to enable you to cast one early (early in my book is turns 2-3, the norm being turns 3-5). The biggest benefit the token provided was opening up the possibility of a turn two Cabal Therapy. I think I'm gonna put Chancellor in my back pocket, because using up the eight free slots highlighted in 4eak's post on page one on four Chancellors and four Baubles is certainly an interesting arrangement.


Would Ashen Ghoul be worth testing? I can see its possible inclusion if you bump up the Dakmor Salvage to a 4 of.

Ashen Ghoul seems dreadfully slow- not only will it usually be a minimum of one turn before you can return it to play, it means you'll likely have had to dredge two for one of your draws, which isn't very awesome.


As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.

I disagree; my sentiments were expressed rather nicely in 4eak's response.


You'll DDD, on their upkeep or end step, you'll Probe (going to 6). If they MM, you still have a very good chance of chain dredging (Phantasmagorian contributes -- making it virtually 20 dredge cards in the deck). The odds of you getting "time-walked" because you are at 6-cards and can't DDD are unlikely given the very high odds of flipping over another Dredge/Phant during your next draw step.

Probe is a sorcery.

4eak
07-25-2011, 04:28 PM
Probe is a sorcery.

Yup. See my post.

Although, looking back (yet again), I'm entirely wrong about it. If probe is countered, you still have the Dredger in your GY. You won't get timewalked. Let's see if I can get this right the 3rd time around:

T1: Discard
T2: Dredge; if you flip a Dredger/Phant, then you can Probe. If MM'd, you still have the Dredger in the GY.
T3: Dredge; doesn't matter if you flip Dredger/Phant, you are back to 8 cards in hand. No timewalk.

A case where you get timewalked is more complicated and less likely. This assumes that your resources are pretty limited (Phant'ing two dredgers stops these problems, for example).

T1: Discard
T2: Dredge, you flip Dredger/Phant; You use 2 draw effects and both get countered (perhaps including Stifle for some effects); you are down to 6 cards in hand
T3: Dredge; you don't flip a Dredger/Phant; you have 7 cards in hand, no Dredger/Phant in the GY; you get timewalked.

An unlikely series of events.


peace,
4eak

John Cox
07-25-2011, 09:21 PM
As far as I can tell, Rausch consciously excluded Gitaxian Probe because of Mental Misstep. It makes sense to do the same.

True,
The other reasons for street wraith are that it dodges duress and feeds Ichorid, But I would rather play Probe + wraith any day despite this.

ajfirecracker
07-25-2011, 11:01 PM
I don't really understand your hypothesis regarding this deck being a Dread Return deck instead of an Ichorid/Bridge from Below deck because theoretically the only thing that makes it a Dread Return deck is deciding to replace engine cards with Dread Return targets and accelerating into Dread Return as quickly as possible. If you want to play Dread Return centric deck, nothing is more Dread Return centric than the list I posted above.

Also, Phantasmagorian and the number of Phantasmagorians isn't debateable, there isn't a single card in this deck that you want to see in your hand or in your graveyard more than Phantasmagorian. It's like a Street Wraith you can Dredge into, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous at increasing the goldfish.

I'm not certain I'd trade Chancellor of the Forge for Baubles, it's more of a question of Chancellor of the Forge vs the Sphinx/Zealot package because you have to ask yourself whether or not Dread Return targets are win more and how many dead cards you want to have in your hand or graveyard. Chancellor of the Forge is interesting because it gives the deck an alternative Dread Return target and accelerates the deck into Dread Return at the same time.

@AJ

I don't think a reactive SB has the same utility as a SB that plays thru' hate instead of against it, I was really impressed by how SBing into the Dakmor Salvage/Bloodghast package just let me laugh off Tormod's Crypt in my match up vs. Affinity yesterday.

I'm not certain the match up vs. Storm is salvageable, Duress/Thought Seize backed by combo is just a beating and boarding 4 Chancellor of the Annex and 4 Mind Break trap doesn't sound very appealing. Also, can somebody explain to me why the hell people are SBing Cantagion? Nobody plays Yixlid Jailor, and Gutshot is better vs. Yixlid Jailor anyway. I don't get it.

Al of that aside, I'm starting to question whether or not Manaless Dredge is an overreaction to Mental Misstep, because while playing LED Dredge (the Parcher list) either my opponent or I chose to draw game 1 every game and I could just play around Mental Misstep and Daze by discarding my Dredger and sand bagging my Lion's Eye Diamond, Break Through and/or Putrid Imps game 1 and then could board in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Ancient Grudge like normal. My main problem with Manaless Dredge is that game two is just awful, awful, awful if they are smart enough to make you play, pass and start the game with an 8 card hand because there's no opportunity cost they'll miss their chance to counter your spells with Daze or get Cabal Therapied.

Phantasmagorian is completely awesome if you see one per game, and (in my opinion) merely okay if you see two in a game (as the looping-through-your-hand thing feels sweet but isn't a whole lot better than just having 1 Phantasmagorian). This, to me, screams 3-of, and 2-of in lists with a lot of draw effects. Once you start piling on a million creatures that each need graveyard manipulation, though, you feel the need for them much more strongly. This is why lists with Nether Shadow and Bloodghast have to have 4. I think if a list has 4 Street Wraith 4 Gitaxian Probe, 0 Baubles, 0 Bloodghast, you should probably have 3 Phantasmagorian 1 Gigapede. Obviously as you start tweaking the deck either way, you adjust how many of each sort of discard outlet you want.

Regarding ANT and TES: Tendrils with Duress is only 2-ish decks in the format, and is pretty okay as far as nightmare matchups go.

I agree that Gut Shot is better.

I don't think we should run a reactive sideboard in the sense of casting Pithing Needle or dropping Leyline of Sanctity into play, I think we should run reactive cards that have broad applications, and basically shift from combo-aggro to aggro-control (or even the mythical aggro-combo-contro), using disruption elements to buy time to lock the game down with Cabal Therapy and an endless supply of zombie blockers/attackers (as opposed to the more normal endless supply of zombie attackers/blockers). The cards that I think most readily go into this sort of plan are Chancellor of the Annex and Mental Misstep, which are both broad answers to early plays.

I think it's definitely a little bit of an overreaction, but as it's good enough to sweep through basically every control deck and basically every aggro deck, there's not really any metagame mechanism for punishing that overreaction - except Leyline of the Void. I've been working on a hybrid list, which plays DDD much more consistently than past builds, but then on turn 2 or 3 starts paying mana for draw spells. It's playing well and seems like it could become the best choice.

Shax
07-26-2011, 12:43 AM
If I had to run a list with Bloodghast it would change up the maindeck and sideboard too..

75:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow
4 Shambling Shell
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Angel of Despair
4 Bloodghast
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 4 Gut Shot
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap

It's got only two Dakmoor Salvage, but I took out x8 Bauble for Bloodghast and Flame-kin to make it in. I also increased the number of Phanta to 4. The sideboard instead only has 3 Leyline because of how bad it is to get multiples, atleast Mental Misstep counters other Mental Misstep. Gut Shot is good at taking how Jailer without removing your relevant black cards. Mindbreak Trap shores up combo city.

jin
07-26-2011, 08:51 AM
Hey, i'm actually playing the list from Nicholas and my problem is, i don't know to counter Leyline of the Void, because Leyline of Sanctity doesn't help me against it.
So, how can i counter this? Or is this already discussed and i'm too stupid to read it?

K1w1

It's not so bad, Rausch scooped in Round 3 and he still won...


SB: 4 Gut Shot


wouldn't gut shot just eat the misstep you were avoiding by playing this deck?

or should I assume that decks that play jailer won't be playing blue or misstep...? If they were playing blue, misstep would stay in even if FOW goes out.. probably because cabal therapy is always a threat..

Pingu
07-26-2011, 10:33 AM
I'm testing this list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede

2 Sadistic Hypnotist

3 Dryad Arbor

sb:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim

The deck already as great games against everything, combo included (they usualy win on turn 3, so it gives us our turn 2 to therapy/hypnotist away their hand), it's only weakness is hate in the form of leyline and relic, or really bad luck wich can happen, so i put all my sideboard to deal with Leyline and also helps a lot against Relic, fetches are a must. I sb out 4 probe, 3 Gigapede, 2 Hypnotist, 2 Dread Return, 2 Narcomoeba (might seem odd but makes sense because you usually will draw more cards at the beginning, you also have more Dryad Arbor wich in a way replace them) and 2 Shambling Shell.
Give me your thoughts...

DemonicTutor
07-26-2011, 10:42 AM
Hi everybody.

This is my first post and I'd like to contribute with an idea 2 fight against Leyline's autoscoop... What about 4 Land Grant +1 Dryad Arbor + 4 Reverent Silence in SB? I'd rather prefer try to beat lelyline instead get a dread return collection on SB ... I know that it's too hard fight against them plus opponent's counters (if they play) but opp. would be forced mull to get leyline and wouldn't have nothing to stop our antigrav. hate. Reverent Silence could clean up the battlefield of several leylines copies also. About Nicholas's main deck I wouldn't change nothing.

PD. Sorry 4 my English, I'm not an English speaker.

Greetings.

Pingu
07-26-2011, 10:49 AM
Hi everybody.

This is my first post and I'd like to contribute with an idea 2 fight against Leyline's autoscoop... What about 4 Land Grant +1 Dryad Arbor + 4 Reverent Silence in SB? I'd rather prefer try to beat lelyline instead get a dread return collection on SB ... I know that it's too hard fight against them plus opponent's counters (if they play) but opp. would be forced mull to get leyline and wouldn't have nothing to stop our antigrav. hate. Reverent Silence could clean up the battlefield of several leylines copies also. About Nicholas's main deck I wouldn't change nothing.

PD. Sorry 4 my English, I'm not an English speaker.

Greetings.

Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus.

ajfirecracker
07-26-2011, 10:54 AM
Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus.

I don't think it's worth it to fight Leyline of the Void in your sideboard. If you do, the fetches are almost certainly better. Land Grant can be Spell Snare'd (we're on the draw, remember?), which is being played a lot right now since it lets you curve out with Mental Misstep, while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.

DemonicTutor
07-26-2011, 11:10 AM
Exactly what i think, if you see above i posted a list with arbor and silence, the difference is the fetches instead of land grant, fetches can only be stifled and helps against relic of progenitus

while Stifle is being played a lot less. Additionally the fetchlands give you an extra landfall trigger for Bloodghast.

You're right. Didn't see in this way, and we've got the chance on T1 fetches bayou and play Cabal Therapy to protect Reverent Silence. Testing right now...

Ziilot
07-26-2011, 12:33 PM
Land Grant can be Spell Snared, but decks playing Leyline of the Void usually don't play Spell Snare :P.

But no point trying to hate LotV.

Resistance is futile!

Shax
07-26-2011, 01:24 PM
wouldn't gut shot just eat the misstep you were avoiding by playing this deck?

or should I assume that decks that play jailer won't be playing blue or misstep...? If they were playing blue, misstep would stay in even if FOW goes out.. probably because cabal therapy is always a threat..

Jailer decks usually only have Jailer as their threat, or don't have Mental Misstep. The worst case scenario is that they counter Gut Shot and my own Mental Misstep and I lose to them that game or the match. Gut Shot cost 1 card in my hand a 2 life. Contagion cost 2 cards and 1 life and is invunerable to Mental Misstep. I have Mental Misstep to also fight Mental Misstep so unless they got multiple Misstep, Force of Will, or some trash like that I should be in good shape.

I tested yesterday and ran into two or three decks packing Leyline of the Void so I got match losses to all of them. Seems like opponents never get unlucky to not find leyline in their mulls.

DemonicTutor
07-26-2011, 05:38 PM
IMO I wouldn't run Gut Shot only to stop random Jailers (the fact is that isn't a common hate graveyard card on actually SB lists, at least in my country), in addition to one casted copy is not enough to beat Gaddocks or Meddling Mage (2/2 both) and is weak against Mental Misstep. As a manaless dredge player, I'd prefer make a SB to fight Leylines, Tormod's, Relic, Needle/Revoke --> Phantasmagorian, instead make a removal creatures SB, cause in the worst scenario case, you could be beaten by a random Jailer, but otherwise, Gaddock and Meddling couldn't stop the graveyard mecanichs except the last one naming Therapy or Dread (blocking and dying our creatures, zombies would be come in anyway).

About packing Contagion in SB: Very useful against Meddlings/random Jailers and Peacekeeper and invulnerable to MM, only Gaddock Teeg can stop it.

Izor
07-26-2011, 06:02 PM
And how exactly do you want to fight Leylines and Relic with your sideboard? Like 11 Forests + 4 Reverent Silence?

Just for those who also want to do things like that. You could also play some Plains plus Abolish, that would hit Leyline as well as Crypt/Relic and stuff in the same fashion. The only downside is that it doesn't dodge Daze (like Reverent) and that you don't get any use out of a Dryad Arbor.

IMO, this deck doesn't need to fight Crypts, Spellbombs and such, because it can easily recover after an activation. Relic is more problematic, but it can be played around with Street Wraith or Baubles (nothing else btw).

Pulp_Fiction
07-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Looking at these lists makes me happy. Now, I have a few ideas I would like to throw out there, I have never played this deck, but I do have a substantial amount of experience with Dredge.

1. As I look at the deck, I really want 10 lands and Putrid Imp. This would also enable Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul to be expolited. Maybe its just the Timmy side of me but I really like the idea of Ashen Ghoul in here, maybe even better than Bloodghast since it is not an entirely worthless creature.

2. Playing a few lands also makes Darkblast very relevant which is a spectacular card itself and allows you to cast Therapy, either on urself to get the ball rolling or the opponent. I am not saying you have to do this turn 1 ... but its a good option.

3. Probe gets Misstepped as does Putrid Imp .... but Imp seems just better and provides more Ichorid fodder.

4. I really like the idea of Dryad Arbor. Not necessarily as a 4-of but, certainly brings a lot of new options to the table, in particular with the SB. It also helps w Shadow recursion.

5. Yes, I realize this is "manaless", but when playing 10 lands it enables better discard outlets but still has the capabilities to revert back to manaless should u need 2. Options are always good.

This deck seems like it has an absurd amount of potential, I will be testing it in the coming weeks. This is all speculation, but kind of the direction I am looking to take my build in. Some kind of a hybrid between manaless and LED versions. Honestly, as opposed to a Reanimator type approach, I like the idea of mainly beatdown strategy w a combo finish if necessary.

DemonicTutor
07-26-2011, 06:15 PM
@ Izor:
And how exactly do you want to fight Leylines and Relic with your sideboard? Like 11 Forests + 4 Reverent Silence?


@ Pingu:
sb:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim

This could be a good example of SB ready for beat Leylines, because doing tricky things with fetchs and, as you say,Street Wraith, you could avoid Tormod's & Relic

KevinTrudeau
07-26-2011, 06:20 PM
Fighting Leyline of the Void is a fool's errand. Fundamentally, this deck is a metagame deck, and can only survive in a Leyline of Void-less, combo-absent domain. If Leyline and/or Storm combo were to become popular, I'd suggest putting the deck down and waiting until the cycle starts itself over.

The Big Ragu
07-26-2011, 06:44 PM
Excellent work.

Izor
07-26-2011, 07:31 PM
Looking at these lists makes me happy. Now, I have a few ideas I would like to throw out there, I have never played this deck, but I do have a substantial amount of experience with Dredge.

1. As I look at the deck, I really want 10 lands and Putrid Imp. This would also enable Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul to be expolited. Maybe its just the Timmy side of me but I really like the idea of Ashen Ghoul in here, maybe even better than Bloodghast since it is not an entirely worthless creature.

2. Playing a few lands also makes Darkblast very relevant which is a spectacular card itself and allows you to cast Therapy, either on urself to get the ball rolling or the opponent. I am not saying you have to do this turn 1 ... but its a good option.

3. Probe gets Misstepped as does Putrid Imp .... but Imp seems just better and provides more Ichorid fodder.

4. I really like the idea of Dryad Arbor. Not necessarily as a 4-of but, certainly brings a lot of new options to the table, in particular with the SB. It also helps w Shadow recursion.

5. Yes, I realize this is "manaless", but when playing 10 lands it enables better discard outlets but still has the capabilities to revert back to manaless should u need 2. Options are always good.

This deck seems like it has an absurd amount of potential, I will be testing it in the coming weeks. This is all speculation, but kind of the direction I am looking to take my build in. Some kind of a hybrid between manaless and LED versions. Honestly, as opposed to a Reanimator type approach, I like the idea of mainly beatdown strategy w a combo finish if necessary.

The problem you'll have while tryin to fit lands into the manaless build is the threat density. The huge advantage over the usual Land builds is the threat density: Manaless has 8-12 cards that don't do anything in your graveyard while mana builds have at least 30. If you try to fit 10 lands into this build now, you'll end up with a much lower threat density. In fact, you'll run just as many lands as the mana builds, but you'll lack the draw engine of that variant. At the same time you'll lack the excellent DDDing of the manaless builds. So instead of having the best of both worlds, you'll probably have the worst of both worlds if you know what I mean.

The real question is what you want to cut for the 10 lands plus discard Dorks. If you cut Baubles/Probes/Street Wraith, you'll end up with essentially a mana build with a slightly higher threat density, but without the raw draw engine power. If you cut additional Dredgers/Nether Shadows or whatever, you'll end up with a mana build that uses Baubles/Probes/Wraiths instead of the much better draw spells Breakthrough/Careful Study/Cephalid Coliseum. Either way, you didn't achieve much. Your discard Dorks still get countered, which double-timewalks you and your DDDing is either not threatening enough, or you lack the draw power to follow it up

The Dryad Arbor idea is actually a good one. It goes well with the additional Forests plus Reverent Silence sb plan.

And I totally agree that this variant has huge potential. Actually, if the metagame stays as it is, which means no Leylines and very few Storm Combo decks (thanks to Mental Misstep) I really can't think of any bad matchups.

Final Fortune
07-27-2011, 01:14 AM
I agree Dredging your second Phantasmagorian is a marginal play, but drawing or Dredging your first Phantasmagrian is a game winning play because it lets you discard your hand and win on either the same or the next turn. No other Dredged card has been as singularly important as Phantasmagorian in increasing the speed at which the deck wins and it adds to the consistency of your Dredge chains, you just run 4 of these and disregard Dredging the second as a consideration (which isn't even a bad thing becuase you discard the remaining three cards in your hand from the first Phantasmagorian and feed it to Ichorid).

I'd also never cut a Phantasmagorian for a Gigapede, I have given up on Gigapede in the MD in favor of Baubles and have given up on Chancellor of the Forge as well for the Sphinx/Zealot package. I'd like to fit all 16 cantrips in the deck, but that requires either cutting Nether Shadow or cutting the Dread Return creatures and I'm not certain either is worth it.

Pingu
07-27-2011, 05:44 AM
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Phantasmagorian
2 Gigapede

1 River Kelpie / Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Sadistic Hypnotist

3 Dryad Arbor

sb:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Reverent Silence
4 Nature's Claim

I want to exchange 1 Gigapede for 1 River Kelpie or 1 Sphinx of Lost truths, i really want a loop in the deck.

I have some questions (noob questions) about Kelpie:
When i dread return it for the first time how many cards do i draw?
How many do i draw when i use therapy or another dread return sacrificing it also for the first time, activating it's persist ability?
And how many do i draw if i use therapy or dread return sacrificing it again when it has a counter?

Michael Keller
07-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Fighting Leyline of the Void is a fool's errand. Fundamentally, this deck is a metagame deck, and can only survive in a Leyline of Void-less, combo-absent domain. If Leyline and/or Storm combo were to become popular, I'd suggest putting the deck down and waiting until the cycle starts itself over.

If you're predicating your belief that this deck is geared specifically towards a targeted metagame, then why not adapt using Dread Return targets like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? I mean, if you're already resigning yourself to playing the deck solely for that purpose, you might as well run more appropriate targets that make life much harder for a Combo player to win. My Return package currently looks like this:

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Platinum Angel

To me, Woodfall Primus feels more like a sideboard answer to permanents that need to be answered. The deck predominately uses the Attack Step and Primus does not clear any path of impending blockers (note I'm referring to the first game). It can already overrun an opponent in a hurry, so there really isn't anything you should fear Game One in that respect. You're going to overpower an opponent in a hurry and Platinum Angel seems like a more viable option against Combo the first game, as decks like Hive Mind and the like have very little they can do to answer that outright (unless they drop Emrakul, in which case it wouldn't matter anyways).

I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is. You're more than likely stripping away cards like Swords to Plowshares anyway with Cabal Therapy; I haven't had any issues with it sticking more than a turn. If it's dropped off Show and Tell by an opponent (assuming they drop Emrakul), you're almost certainly going to win the next turn or do a serious amount of damage. You could legitimately take fifteen damage, get a bunch of dudes (off Bloodghast or Nether Shadow-bound tokens) and proceed to crush an opponent the following turn (as you get first-dibs on the attack).

Still testing, however.

KevinTrudeau
07-27-2011, 03:12 PM
If you're predicating your belief that this deck is geared specifically towards a targeted metagame, then why not adapt using Dread Return targets like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? I mean, if you're already resigning yourself to playing the deck solely for that purpose, you might as well run more appropriate targets that make life much harder for a Combo player to win. My Return package currently looks like this:

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Platinum Angel

To me, Woodfall Primus feels more like a sideboard answer to permanents that need to be answered. The deck predominately uses the Attack Step and Primus does not clear any path of impending blockers (note I'm referring to the first game). It can already overrun an opponent in a hurry, so there really isn't anything you should fear Game One in that respect. You're going to overpower an opponent in a hurry and Platinum Angel seems like a more viable option against Combo the first game, as decks like Hive Mind and the like have very little they can do to answer that outright (unless they drop Emrakul, in which case it wouldn't matter anyways).

I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is. You're more than likely stripping away cards like Swords to Plowshares anyway with Cabal Therapy; I haven't had any issues with it sticking more than a turn. If it's dropped off Show and Tell by an opponent (assuming they drop Emrakul), you're almost certainly going to win the next turn or do a serious amount of damage. You could legitimately take fifteen damage, get a bunch of dudes (off Bloodghast or Nether Shadow-bound tokens) and proceed to crush an opponent the following turn (as you get first-dibs on the attack).

Still testing, however.

The absolute earliest you can consistently Dread Return something is turn three, on the draw (or turn four on the play G2); much too slow versus something like Storm. Running Iona and Platinum Angel seems pointless, as you can just win the game outright if you mill your deck via Sphinx or Kelpie, strip their hand, and DR Zealot. I'm not a fan of running specialty targets in the main.

Also, why use Tolarian Serpent when you can just mill up to eighteen with Sphinx right away?


I have some questions (noob questions) about Kelpie:
When i dread return it for the first time how many cards do i draw?
How many do i draw when i use therapy or another dread return sacrificing it also for the first time, activating it's persist ability?
And how many do i draw if i use therapy or dread return sacrificing it again when it has a counter?
-One
-One (it won't be in play to see Cabal Therapy get cast, but it'll trigger again when it comes back into play)
-Zero (same as above, except it won't be coming back this time)

Now that we've come close to a consensus decklist for now, I'd like to go over some sideboard options. I'll probably make a more in depth post concerning the board sometime later today.

Michael Keller
07-27-2011, 06:19 PM
The absolute earliest you can consistently Dread Return something is turn three, on the draw (or turn four on the play G2); much too slow versus something like Storm. Running Iona and Platinum Angel seems pointless, as you can just win the game outright if you mill your deck via Sphinx or Kelpie, strip their hand, and DR Zealot. I'm not a fan of running specialty targets in the main.

I'm not certain what variation of Dredge you're running, but with cards like Cabal Therapy and most Storm pilots utilizing the first two to three turns cantripping and sculpting their hand, it is far from inconceivable for a solid turn three to four Dread Return targeting a very resourceful threat - and form of protection - in the form of Angel or Emperion. You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough. Dredge is a deck predicated on winning a large percentage of its Game One's, and to sacrifice that sort of advantage by using the excuse, "Well, I guess I'll just put the deck down and give up on it because I can't figure out a way to beat Combo and fold to it" is just unacceptable in my eyes.

This deck plays to its strength on the draw. Explain to me, as the deck stands, how you plan to systematically destroy Combo (of any sort) with the configuration already in place? You have absolutely zero ways of protecting yourself outside of Cabal Therapy. Don't look now, but Legacy is shifting towards Combo which happens to be an awfully bad situation for this deck. If fifty-nine cards are already good enough to destroy Control or mid-range Aggro Control, explain to me why one card which could completely dismantle a Combo deck's plan Game One be a 'bad idea?' That logic just seems flawed.

This line of thinking is not what I have in mind when playing Manaless Dredge in a large, unpredictable meta. The threat density in this deck is unlike any other, so winning through the Attack Step is obviously not a problem. What is a problem is using cards like Woodfall Primus to justify some sort of protection within those turns you specified when by the time aforementioned they should be dead anyways. You're better off using some sort of protection and firepower - like either of those two - in the current general meta. Combo is becoming more and more prevalent (don't look now but Pattern of Rebirth just stole Jupiter Games' NELC event with Hive Mind right in the mix) and the fact is this deck need several turns to 'go off.' Why would you relegate yourself to an auto-loss Game One when in the second and third games you're looking at an even more dire situation with a potentially damning Leyline or Relic?

Combo in general is picking up steam and to just give up doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of effective options to be used. I also don't know what you're running in your sideboard, but I'm taking advantage of the fact my opponent could relegate me to being on the play Game Two by using a suite of lands and discard effects, in addition to some relegated artifact and enchantment destruction. People should be taking advantage of this and I just don't think they are. An opponent is going to put you on the play Game Two (potentially), and that alone could be catastrophic for an opponent if you prepare accordingly.

KevinTrudeau
07-27-2011, 07:39 PM
I'm not certain what variation of Dredge you're running, but with cards like Cabal Therapy and most Storm pilots utilizing the first two to three turns cantripping and sculpting their hand, it is far from inconceivable for a solid turn three to four Dread Return targeting a very resourceful threat - and form of protection - in the form of Angel or Emperion. You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough. Dredge is a deck predicated on winning a large percentage of its Game One's, and to sacrifice that sort of advantage by using the excuse, "Well, I guess I'll just put the deck down and give up on it because I can't figure out a way to beat Combo and fold to it" is just unacceptable in my eyes.

I'm failing to understand that it's inherently slower to Dread Return something in Manaless Dredge than other Dredge variants? Aren't you just reiterating what I said in my previous post, that it'll be turn three before you can plausibly cast Dread Return (although, that's not really all that much slower than other Dredge variants)? I'm failing to understand how reanimating a Platinum Angel that gives the opponent a few outs in the form of Chain of Vapor or another bounce spell is better than just killing them that turn with Sphinx of Lost Truths into River Kelpie into Flame-kin Zealot, a line of play that also opens up all four copies of Cabal Therapy. I've already discussed on the previous page in this thread that this should be a Dread Return deck first and foremost, with the grind-'em out Ichorid recursion/Bridge token strategy acting as Plan B, since Plan B can act as a function of Plan A. This deck isn't nearly as slow as you seem to fathom, but by design it can't really best fast combo, specifically Storm combo (which is what I was referring to when I used the ambiguous term 'combo', sorry if that caused any misinterpretations), at least pre-Misstep; like Dread Return, Cabal Therapy won't usually be online until turn three. This permutation of Dredge can, however, beat slower two card combos like Show and Tell+Emrakul or Painter+Grindstone rather easily, especially with proper boarding. To provide an analogy, it would be like registering Merfolk in a field that you know is chock-full of Zoo; if you were to play this in a Storm-heavy meta, it just wouldn't be a good idea, and due to the restriction of having no mana to cast spells that would potentially make the matchup better, I wouldn't advise playing this deck if fast combo were to take off.


This deck plays to its strength on the draw. Explain to me, as the deck stands, how you plan to systematically destroy Combo (of any sort) with the configuration already in place? You have absolutely zero ways of protecting yourself outside of Cabal Therapy. Don't look now, but Legacy is shifting towards Combo which happens to be an awfully bad situation for this deck. If fifty-nine cards are already good enough to destroy Control or mid-range Aggro Control, explain to me why one card which could completely dismantle a Combo deck's plan Game One be a 'bad idea?' That logic just seems flawed.

I haven't seen a shred of evidence that shows that the general metagame is shifting back to Storm combo (again, I hope there's no misunderstandings over the word 'combo'). Even if it were, the list I proposed on the first page is one of the quicker lists I've seen, running four Return targets that are proficient against combo in addition to a set of Urza's Bauble that can speed up the deck by a full turn. Again, why bring back a threat that can easily be nullified in the form of Iona or Platinum Angel when you can just win on the spot with Zealot?

The problem with running protection in this build of Dredge is that there really isn't anything efficient aside from Therapy- Leyline of Sanctity, for instance, makes you wait a turn before starting up the engine. I'm not saying give up the fight against all forms of combo as there are good ways to fight non-Storm combo (multiple Proggies in vs. Painter, for example), but Storm has both speed and discard effects, which just seems like way too much to combat reliably.


This line of thinking is not what I have in mind when playing Manaless Dredge in a large, unpredictable meta. The threat density in this deck is unlike any other, so winning through the Attack Step is obviously not a problem. What is a problem is using cards like Woodfall Primus to justify some sort of protection within those turns you specified when by the time aforementioned they should be dead anyways. You're better off using some sort of protection and firepower - like either of those two - in the current general meta. Combo is becoming more and more prevalent (don't look now but Pattern of Rebirth just stole Jupiter Games' NELC event with Hive Mind right in the mix) and the fact is this deck need several turns to 'go off.' Why would you relegate yourself to an auto-loss Game One when in the second and third games you're looking at an even more dire situation with a potentially damning Leyline or Relic?

Okay, by reading this paragraph, I see now that there was a misunderstanding over the word 'combo', although that Rebirth deck might still be a problem if it can consistently Hulk Flash by turn three (we don't care about Proggy). Again, the list I've proposed actually has a better combo matchup than the majority of decklists I've seen, especially Rausch's.


Combo in general is picking up steam and to just give up doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of effective options to be used. I also don't know what you're running in your sideboard, but I'm taking advantage of the fact my opponent could relegate me to being on the play Game Two by using a suite of lands and discard effects, in addition to some relegated artifact and enchantment destruction. People should be taking advantage of this and I just don't think they are. An opponent is going to put you on the play Game Two (potentially), and that alone could be catastrophic for an opponent if you prepare accordingly.

You're diluting the deck too much if you plan on boarding in lands+castable spells (especially the fifteen card plan against Leyline that's being popularized in this thread) and in addition are banking on going runner-runner in a deck that doesn't like drawing cards (just to clarify, putting cards in your hand as opposed to dredging), doesn't have a whole lot of library manipulation, and can't really afford to mulligan.

Thank you for the engaging discussion.

Grillo
07-27-2011, 07:59 PM
Quick question.
Has anyone tested the Junk match up? It looks hard to beat as it packs discard and creature removal. Not to mention a possible combo finish.

I want to test manaless at a tourney this weekend, but it seems like the metagame will be shifted towards that type of deck.

For reference my maindeck:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Phantasmagorian
3 Gigapede

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite <--- might change into other targets
4 Chancellor of the Forge <--- might change into other targets

Still working on the sideboard.

Thanks!

jin
07-27-2011, 08:38 PM
Cabal Therapy in Manaless Ichorid

Am I playing it wrong or is it just me? You guys all seem to be relying heavily on your Cabal Therapies for your safety. If there is a problem, Cabal Therapy is usually the answer, but how many of you actually resolve Cabal Therapy? I've had my Cabal Therapies misstepped, forced, etc. I just don't see it resolving if we don't hard cast it. Even if they let one through the entire game, you might not even net any cards. So how is Cabal Therapy the catch all to all problems?

I just feel like we need another form of discard. Is Gritixian Probe helping with this?

Thanks for future answers and for reading my newb post.

Pulp_Fiction
07-28-2011, 12:58 AM
I talked one of my buddies into playing this tonight. He was gonna play a 15 land build but decided against it when he realized he only had to spend $20 to get the rest of the terrible cards! All of my initial conceptions about this deck were totally wrong.

Ashen Ghoul is awful. Period, its super slow and not worth running.

We both felt the exact same way about Probe. It did not resolve all night, it was either MMed or Dazed. Not worth running in a heavy blue meta IMOP.

Gigapede should certainly be in here, the exact number ... not sure, but 3x felt like overkill a lot of the time, perhaps 2 in the main would be perfect.

There has to be some number of permanent killer DR targets in the board. Angel of Despair is the one we agreed should be there. he lost a game to peacekeeper in UW bullshit and to Blazing Archon in Reanimator. Had Angel of Despair been a 2-3of in the board, both would have been absurdly easy wins. He almost lost a game to Stax against magus of the Tabernacle, and had that player found Ghostly Prison at any point ... the game would just be over. It should be noted that he didn't cast a single spell in the match, this deck is almost absurdly good. Here is the list both of us will be running in the future:

4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Gigapede
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4x Dread Returns just felt really excessive. Almost 100% of the time they just sat there doing nothing while Ichorid and company smashed face. You only need 1 to resolve to win the game, but playing 3x DR and 2x Sphinx is to maximize game 1 combo abilities. I'm sure most will strongly disagree but ... neither of us really felt it necessary for 4.

As far as the SB goes ... Leyline of Sanctity was a total house. Turning off Relic's annoying remove a card garbage. It was also crucial to winning against blue with Jace since they can't fateseal you and do the ultimate ability. In the future I really think a proper SB for this deck should be something along the lines of:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Spinning Darkness/Contagion
4 Mental Misstep
3 DR targets

I would simply run 3x Angel of Despair, but Terrastodon, Norn, Sundering Titan, Iona, etc, all have their benefits. We really like the idea of Angel, and he wants 1 in the main, but it really feels like more of a SB card to me since its largely worthless game 1. Its still good, but why not just reanimate Sphinx and win? Thoughts?

bakofried
07-28-2011, 02:06 AM
They could just fateseal themselves. I don't see Leyline against Jace being terribly strong.

KevinTrudeau
07-28-2011, 02:21 AM
@jin- Even if multiple copies of Cabal Therapy get countered, it won't really make a difference, because it means the opponent has had less business with which to combat your uncounterable forces in Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Nether Shadow, and Bridge tokens. Against blue control, they're not really necessary to resolve to win since blue control is a dog to this deck. Just like with Gitaxian Probe, think of it has a way to possibly accelerate the game further to your advantage, but don't use it as a crutch since you don't actually need to resolve Dread Return to win; you can just fall back on the deck's natural resilience. If you really do need to cast Dread Return, you need not worry, for you will eventually get to a point where your combined Therapies and Dread Returns outnumber their countermagic.

@Pulp_Fiction- Completely agree with animating Sphinx->win over an Angel in the main. I don't know if Spinning Darkness/Contagion/Gut Shot is needed in the board, simply because I've NEVER seen anyone run Yixlid Jailer ever (and don't expect to), and hatebears like Gaddock Teeg weep in the face of the brutal Ichorid. Darkness is a nice find though. Have you tested the Urza's Bauble lists that have been suggested previously in this thread? I feel they have pretty much the same resiliency that the Bloodghast+Salvage lists have, but have an added speed boost.

I agree that Angel of Despair should be in the board. Here are a list of targets I think could be possible inclusions in the board:

Angel of Despair
Terastodon
Woodfall Primus
Sadistic Hypnotist
Ancestor's Chosen
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (mostly for the mirror, also has other obvious applications)
Progenitus/Darksteel Colossus/Blightsteel Colossus/Serra Avatar (Avatar if you're classy) for Painter and Painter alone

In addition, Chancellor of the Annex is already being considered just for its reveal ability, and it's a decent enough target in its own right.

Besides targets, I think four Mishra's Baubles could be decent in matchups where we need more speed, and it even has the added benefit of blanking Relic's tap ability if you play it turn one instead of discarding. Mental Misstep seems like the best card alongside Chancellor to fight combo. I've played with Leyline of Sanctity and it was very good as well, although the tournament I did well in with it wasn't exactly prepared for Manaless Dredge.

keys
07-28-2011, 02:27 AM
They could just fateseal themselves. I don't see Leyline against Jace being terribly strong.

It prevents the ultimate. But I'm not sure that dredge is really afraid of it anyway.

John Cox
07-28-2011, 03:41 AM
Pulp_Fiction, Drop 1 Dakmor Salvage. Your going to see one in the first three dredges 70% of the time with three and I can guarantee that the 4th is less important than angel of despair.

Michael Keller
07-28-2011, 08:35 AM
he lost a game to peacekeeper in UW bullshit.

This is where Darkblast out of the board shines. It's somewhat narrow in the U/w match (as Peacekeeper is really the only target you legitimately care about anyway), but it is far too good to leave out.

At worst, Darkblast can also hit Jailer if you hit a Salvage (assuming of course someone actually plays it).


I haven't seen a shred of evidence that shows that the general metagame is shifting back to Storm combo (again, I hope there's no misunderstandings over the word 'combo'). Even if it were, the list I proposed on the first page is one of the quicker lists I've seen, running four Return targets that are proficient against combo in addition to a set of Urza's Bauble that can speed up the deck by a full turn.

...Ben Swartz goes undefeated with this deck with three in the Top Twelve? Take note of the fact that a large percentage of people are starting to shift over to the 'Hive Mind' mentality after Ben Wienberg cruised through the Swiss the previous week with it, as Tom Ma did before that, as the 2nd place at the G.P. executed before that. The deck is seeing an exponentially large increase in play not just on MOTL, but on the Open and independent Circuit as well - performing exceptionally well.

That's not to take away from the other Top 16 installments including decks like Aluren, Orb-Naught, and Dark Depths all completely dominating the field. It doesn't matter necessarily what decks are dominating the field, but the fact that people are trying to get crafty and in fact are playing various types of Combo.

I certainly don't believe this is a fluke; people are tired of seeing and hearing about S.F.M.-based strategy and right now Legacy is a format where you're either playing Combo or Mystic. This particular deck only beats one of those regularly, which is unfortunately just my point. You already have an option with Zealot to speed the kill up, and you could even run Sphinx if you desire. All I'm saying is that with Combo being as prevalent as it is, there's no reason to fold to it and try to "grind 'em-out" (as you put it), because you will absolutely not win that way against those decks which prey off that exact strategy.

I think there's is much to be taken away from this as it references to the general overall meta. You'll notice a disturbing lack of any Combo presence the week before at Cincinnati, which is in large part the reason Rausch did so well with the deck. Whether or not Seattle was a fluke remains to be seen but I can assure you with Hive Mind at the driver's seat and other Combo riding the waves of 'Minds' prosperity, it is going to make life difficult for this deck to thrive, which is in large part why I strenuously recommend playing a singleton target dedicated to gaining an edge over the Combo player Game One. Bounce effects rarely see play Game One and generally don't come into discussion until post-board, so there's no reason to go there. I'm specifically gearing my train of thought towards Game One here.

The element of surprise is gone the minute you elect to 'draw.'

4eak
07-28-2011, 09:34 AM
I've tested ajfirecracker's list; it is a very interesting take, and it works. His theorycrafting makes much more sense when you play his exact (or nearly exact) list. His list is fast. That said, it is easier to interact with the deck (not a good thing) and it is less consistent. After testing his list (which was, thankfully, different than the 16-draw list I had made), I found Phantasmagorian played a very different role than it plays in many of these other lists. Going for the full 16 Free draw spells, multiples of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow are weaker, he is right about that. I don't know if his take is the correct one, but I think everyone should try it out because it could be the correct way to go.

// Dredgers - 16
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell

// Free Discard Outlets - 2
2 Phantasmagorian

// Free Dudes - 10
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow

// Free Card Draw - 16
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

// GY-Goodies - 12
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// DR Targets - 4
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 River Kelpie (I'm still liking 1x more Sphinx more than this card)

It plays pretty differently. It goes for the throat in a bunch of cases where other Manaless lists are slow-rolling. I like the speed of this deck. Again, I am worried about the consistency and vulnerability to interaction, but those might be sacrifices worth making. I'm not sure at this point.


@ Hollywood


I've also been testing Tolarian Serpent. This deck seems like it has a much easier time flashing-back Dread Return than traditional Ichorid given how powerful Phantasmagorian's outlet is.

As KevinTrudeau pointed out, you need to use Sphinx. You should be winning on the same turn you cast your first Dread Return. If you aren't chaining Sphinxes (often 1 is enough, but sometimes you'll chain DR-Sphinx until you've dredged your entire deck, e.g. FKZ is on the bottom), and finishing with FKZ, then you are doing it wrong.

You need a really good reason not to play these:
+2-3 Sphinx
+1 FKZ

Now, perhaps we can argue you should run even more DR targets, but not at the expense of running at least 2 Sphinx, 1 FKZ. That is your bread'n'butter play.


You fail to understand this archetype - unlike its counterpart - is inherently slower and in a Combo infested meta using the attack step just might not be enough.

I'd argue that no Dredge variant belongs in a combo infested metagame, not even LED Dredge.

The funny part is that you think this manaless ichorid is going to be capable of evolving to answer opposing combo. I don't see that happening. This is a deck which just loses to certain decks and certain strategies, and I don't think there is much you can do about it. Now, that might not seem acceptable to many, but I think it is a common thing to accept about many decks in the format.

Most Dredge decks would consider Iona or Hypnotist, and they have, at best, one or two shots to use draw spells to dredge enough of their to have the resources to DR a defensive target. But, why do that in this deck? If you can DR, you might as well just win the game. You got the space in the main to just win, so do it.



peace,
4eak

ajfirecracker
07-28-2011, 12:46 PM
...Ben Swartz goes undefeated with this deck with three in the Top Twelve? Take note of the fact that a large percentage of people are starting to shift over to the 'Hive Mind' mentality after Ben Wienberg cruised through the Swiss the previous week with it, as Tom Ma did before that, as the 2nd place at the G.P. executed before that. The deck is seeing an exponentially large increase in play not just on MOTL, but on the Open and independent Circuit as well - performing exceptionally well.

That's not to take away from the other Top 16 installments including decks like Aluren, Orb-Naught, and Dark Depths all completely dominating the field. It doesn't matter necessarily what decks are dominating the field, but the fact that people are trying to get crafty and in fact are playing various types of Combo.

I certainly don't believe this is a fluke; people are tired of seeing and hearing about S.F.M.-based strategy and right now Legacy is a format where you're either playing Combo or Mystic. This particular deck only beats one of those regularly, which is unfortunately just my point. You already have an option with Zealot to speed the kill up, and you could even run Sphinx if you desire. All I'm saying is that with Combo being as prevalent as it is, there's no reason to fold to it and try to "grind 'em-out" (as you put it), because you will absolutely not win that way against those decks which prey off that exact strategy.

I think there's is much to be taken away from this as it references to the general overall meta. You'll notice a disturbing lack of any Combo presence the week before at Cincinnati, which is in large part the reason Rausch did so well with the deck. Whether or not Seattle was a fluke remains to be seen but I can assure you with Hive Mind at the driver's seat and other Combo riding the waves of 'Minds' prosperity, it is going to make life difficult for this deck to thrive, which is in large part why I strenuously recommend playing a singleton target dedicated to gaining an edge over the Combo player Game One. Bounce effects rarely see play Game One and generally don't come into discussion until post-board, so there's no reason to go there. I'm specifically gearing my train of thought towards Game One here.

The element of surprise is gone the minute you elect to 'draw.'

Who care about the element of surprise if you've gotten to the point where you can draw?

Hive Mind is a deck that keeps pace with us, not one that blasts past us. It can only combo out as soon as Turn 4 (or 5 or 6, depending on how many 2-mana lands they draw) unless it gets Show and Tell, Hive Mind, and a Pact. That seems pretty bad. Even then, it's only Turn 3 unless they also have a 2-mana land, which pushes their god-hand up to 4 cards. They can also go for Turn 2-3 Emrakul, attacking to little consequence on Turn 3-4, and killing us on Turn 4-5. That's certainly enough time to bash through a single, not-dying blocker (so we have Bridge to lean on).

In contrast, our god-hand is 1 card (Golgari Grave-Troll) and 6 anythings. Obviously it's sweet of some of those anythings are cantrips, but not necessary.

@4eak:
I'm glad you like it. I think the debate should be whether random bodies are better (which is mostly what Bloodghast and Chancellor of the Forge give you) or any particular combination of other cards is better, as the cantrips will dig you into your Dread Return, Ichorid, Bridge from Below, and Narcomoeba much faster than slow-dredging. I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in another Sphinx of Lost Truths, although if I do find room it should probably be the more cautious Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus.

The other lists shouldn't be more consistent at anything except putting random bodies on the field. Granted, they have 3-4 Dakmor Salvage as dredgers 17-20, but those are really pitiful, and only worth having as incidental value (i.e. digging for a real dredger when that's your only line of play available).

Regarding interaction: I think it's not that bad, really. The Baubles aren't countered by anything much, besides Force of Will and maybe Daze (which I haven't seen a lot of since Mental Misstep came around). Force turns our Bauble into a 0-mana Hymn to Tourach, which is at its worst in this deck, but is still reasonable. Daze is a lot more value for our opponent, being a 1-for-1, but it still Solfatara's (okay, okay, Boomerang's) them for no mana.

@people: I think if you're going to board a speed change (meaning putting any of the core components of your deck in the board, so you can add/subtract cantrips and subtract/add extra bodies) you really need to run 12 or so SB cards for it to be worth it. If you're just bringing in 4 Gitaxian Probe against Storm, you're really not doing much to change the speed of your deck, but you're still devoting 4 SB slots to that change. I think a more productive change for a deck whose only draw element is Street Wraith would be a board of: 4 LED, 3 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Urza's Bauble, 2 Mishra's Bauble, +2 DR Targets. Obviously that's a huge sideboard just for that plan, but I don't see the plan having much impact on your matches unless you have a big chunk of your sideboard devoted to it. (The main reason being that LED is probably our best card against Storm, but it needs cantrips to be good)

Michael Keller
07-28-2011, 01:21 PM
Who care about the element of surprise if you've gotten to the point where you can draw?

Hive Mind is a deck that keeps pace with us, not one that blasts past us. It can only combo out as soon as Turn 4 (or 5 or 6, depending on how many 2-mana lands they draw) unless it gets Show and Tell, Hive Mind, and a Pact. That seems pretty bad. Even then, it's only Turn 3 unless they also have a 2-mana land, which pushes their god-hand up to 4 cards. They can also go for Turn 2-3 Emrakul, attacking to little consequence on Turn 3-4, and killing us on Turn 4-5. That's certainly enough time to bash through a single, not-dying blocker (so we have Bridge to lean on).

I understand your logic, but you also are forgetting Hive Mind runs Grim Monolith and can legitimately cast Hive Mind the second turn with a Pact, not even requiring a Show and Tell to win the game. It's just another avenue the deck takes in its winning strategy. I would like to know logistically what this deck's percentages are in the Hive Mind match-up (don't get me wrong: I'm an advocate of this deck).

Also, has anyone considered Unmask as an option (main or board) as a free outlet to discard a card from your hand Turn One when forced to be on the play Game Two? That seems relatively good against Relic as their Turn One will only be able to hit the Unmask and not the enabler (Unmask has to resolve before they can activate Relic). From there you can opt to 'slow-Dredge' and force an opponent into cracking his or her Relic earlier than wanted.

Of course, you could Unmask an opponent and take the Relic, but it seems more important to discard your own card rather than bank on a gamble they have a Relic in their opening draw while triple-Time Walking them in the process.

KevinTrudeau
07-28-2011, 01:42 PM
This is where Darkblast out of the board shines. It's somewhat narrow in the U/w match (as Peacekeeper is really the only target you legitimately care about anyway), but it is far too good to leave out.

At worst, Darkblast can also hit Jailer if you hit a Salvage (assuming of course someone actually plays it).



...Ben Swartz goes undefeated with this deck with three in the Top Twelve? Take note of the fact that a large percentage of people are starting to shift over to the 'Hive Mind' mentality after Ben Wienberg cruised through the Swiss the previous week with it, as Tom Ma did before that, as the 2nd place at the G.P. executed before that. The deck is seeing an exponentially large increase in play not just on MOTL, but on the Open and independent Circuit as well - performing exceptionally well.

That's not to take away from the other Top 16 installments including decks like Aluren, Orb-Naught, and Dark Depths all completely dominating the field. It doesn't matter necessarily what decks are dominating the field, but the fact that people are trying to get crafty and in fact are playing various types of Combo.

I certainly don't believe this is a fluke; people are tired of seeing and hearing about S.F.M.-based strategy and right now Legacy is a format where you're either playing Combo or Mystic. This particular deck only beats one of those regularly, which is unfortunately just my point. You already have an option with Zealot to speed the kill up, and you could even run Sphinx if you desire. All I'm saying is that with Combo being as prevalent as it is, there's no reason to fold to it and try to "grind 'em-out" (as you put it), because you will absolutely not win that way against those decks which prey off that exact strategy.

I think there's is much to be taken away from this as it references to the general overall meta. You'll notice a disturbing lack of any Combo presence the week before at Cincinnati, which is in large part the reason Rausch did so well with the deck. Whether or not Seattle was a fluke remains to be seen but I can assure you with Hive Mind at the driver's seat and other Combo riding the waves of 'Minds' prosperity, it is going to make life difficult for this deck to thrive, which is in large part why I strenuously recommend playing a singleton target dedicated to gaining an edge over the Combo player Game One. Bounce effects rarely see play Game One and generally don't come into discussion until post-board, so there's no reason to go there. I'm specifically gearing my train of thought towards Game One here.

The element of surprise is gone the minute you elect to 'draw.'

Concerning Darkblast+Salvage- again, runner-runner in a deck that doesn't have much in terms of library manipulation and can't feasibly mulligan.

I'm well aware of slower combo's resurgence, I clarified three times in my initial response that I was referring to fast combo, specifically Storm combo, when I said that this deck would have no chance in a combo-ridden environment. You're making an argument against my points even though I'm in agreement that opposing combo decks need to be taken into consideration while building a maindeck, and am championing a version of the deck that would have a superior combo matchup in comparison to most other builds. I wasn't referring to grinding out games against combo, I explicitly stated that that strategy should be a Plan B to the Plan A of Dread Returning a Sphinx of Lost Truths into FKZ.


I've tested ajfirecracker's list; it is a very interesting take, and it works. His theorycrafting makes much more sense when you play his exact (or nearly exact) list. His list is fast. That said, it is easier to interact with the deck (not a good thing) and it is less consistent. After testing his list (which was, thankfully, different than the 16-draw list I had made), I found Phantasmagorian played a very different role than it plays in many of these other lists. Going for the full 16 Free draw spells, multiples of Phantasmagorian and Nether Shadow are weaker, he is right about that. I don't know if his take is the correct one, but I think everyone should try it out because it could be the correct way to go.

// Dredgers - 16
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell

// Free Discard Outlets - 2
2 Phantasmagorian

// Free Dudes - 10
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow

// Free Card Draw - 16
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

// GY-Goodies - 12
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// DR Targets - 4
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 River Kelpie (I'm still liking 1x more Sphinx more than this card)

It plays pretty differently. It goes for the throat in a bunch of cases where other Manaless lists are slow-rolling. I like the speed of this deck. Again, I am worried about the consistency and vulnerability to interaction, but those might be sacrifices worth making. I'm not sure at this point.

You're right, an additional Sphinx might be just better than Kelpie; the only reason I'm running Kelpie is that in principle, once it gets going, you'll assuredly bin your whole library, whereas Sphinx might come up short in a few corner cases. Kelpie can also be very awkward when it's your first DR target sometimes.

That list makes me think that running four Mishra's Bauble in the board might very well be a good idea, so you can easily board into that configuration against faster decks. I'll have to test it before running that config main, but it does look pretty sweet.


I understand your logic, but you also are forgetting Hive Mind runs Grim Monolith and can legitimately cast Hive Mind the second turn with a Pact, not even requiring a Show and Tell to win the game. It's just another avenue the deck takes in its winning strategy. I would like to know logistically what this deck's percentages are in the Hive Mind match-up (don't get me wrong: I'm an advocate of this deck).

Also, has anyone considered Unmask as an option (main or board) as a free outlet to discard a card from your hand Turn One when forced to be on the play Game Two? That seems relatively good against Relic as their Turn One will only be able to hit the Unmask and not the enabler (Unmask has to resolve before they can activate Relic).

Unmask exiles.

jin
07-28-2011, 02:23 PM
Unmask exiles.

he means unmask yourself, not the opponent..

KevinTrudeau
07-28-2011, 02:53 PM
he means unmask yourself, not the opponent..

My mistake. I only read the first sentence of that second paragraph. Unmask on the play targeting yourself seems alright, it for sure has a large upside; Manaless has a much lower percentage of winning game two, so I guess you might as well go all out.

Tacosnape
07-28-2011, 03:24 PM
The problem with aiming an Unmask at yourself postboard on the play is then you just auto-scoop to a Tormod's Crypt or a Surgical Extraction, as you just knocked 3 cards out of your hand, putting you at 4, and after a Crypt you won't be able to drop anything into your yard for 4 turns.

Michael Keller
07-28-2011, 06:02 PM
The problem with aiming an Unmask at yourself postboard on the play is then you just auto-scoop to a Tormod's Crypt or a Surgical Extraction, as you just knocked 3 cards out of your hand, putting you at 4, and after a Crypt you won't be able to drop anything into your yard for 4 turns.

You'd auto-scoop anyway if an opponent has those cards in their grip, so it wouldn't make much difference 'losing' a turn or two in the process if you can punish an opponent for forcing you to play first. You could play around Surgical Extraction (unlike Extirpate) with a timely Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian activation, but Crypt would hurt a bit more.

Unmask provides you the flexibility to discard a card before an opponent has the opportunity to drop a Relic and start eradicating your yard, and considering how the general consensus here is to pack it in to any general graveyard hate like Relic or Leyline, you might as well explore all options.

Shax
07-28-2011, 09:12 PM
When you have the thoughtline of ''I'mma gonna Unmask myself, yeah!'' you lost your match, scoop it up and move on. I have never Unmasked myself in all the games of Dredge I have ever played in Eternal. If I want to Umask myself I will say fuck it and play One with Nothing. Yes thats how good the idea of Unmask on yourself is. Use Unmask on the person sitting in front of you always. Even if they have Misdirection.

Usually you can just DDD and play through Surgical Extraction AND Tormod's Crypt in a game need be depending on how resilient your list is. Running more creatures gives you a better chance, so I go x4Ichorid,Bloodghast,Nether Shadow-Narc. 16 Beaters is usally enough to nail them out combined with ''derp derp catch all cabal therapy''. Gitaxian Probe is worth running.. I would almost say always. If they Mental Misstep is they just Shock'd themselves and that puts you on a faster clock for Beatz.

Dread Return targets are probably the best issue to discuss. I have Angel of Despair as my MD target still and it works fine in conjunction with FKZ. Sphinx's really aren't needed as a filler target and would be better off giving you room for more beats.

The combo thing? Well I think I have some alright chances. I have x4 Mindbreak Trap and x4 Mental Misstep plus x3 Leyline of Sanctity. Against The Hive Minds I prolly have to get lucky like I would if they shuffled up LoTV and starting mulling.

Final Fortune
07-29-2011, 01:40 AM
I'm more or less settled on a 16 cantrip MD and a "grinder" SB, Ichorid and Narcomoeba have been more than enough to support an average of T3 Dread Return and the Gigapedge, Nether Shadow and the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine is the best SB vs Tormod's Crypt esq. hate.

The number of Phantasmagorians is not debatable, I understand how AJ is using them in his list, but I think he is underestimating the consistency of drawing them in his oppenning hand or dredging into them in his first 4.5 cards, no card does more in Manaless Dredge than Phantasmagorian and it has been absolutely critical in all of my turn 3 goldfishes.

"Final" list

MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Streeth Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
SB
4 Nether Shadow
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
3 Gigapede

Shax
07-29-2011, 02:14 AM
@Final Fortune The idea of having limited game versus Relic of Progenitus is terrific, what a great sideboard. Relic like.. is hard to fight even with Bauble and Street Wraith helping because they will eventually wipe the slate clean and draw a card. So you stalled them.. till they find another Relic. I think your on a good track for boarding in Beatz though. Gigapedge? Is this like ''Core-44''.

Final Fortune
07-29-2011, 02:44 AM
Fixed Typo

I think it's just "Core," the deck was missing a fundamental turn vs. the slow(er) combo decks like Hive Mind so concentrating on the speed of the deck game 1 and then the resiliency of the deck game 2 is all important.

About the only things I question are whether or not the second Flame Kin Zealot should be the third Sphinx of Lost Truths or a River Kelpie and whether or not the SB should be 3xGigapedge, 4xDakmor Salvage or vice versa.

I don't actually play 8 Baubles to fight Relic of Progenitus, because even with 8 Baubles you still lose game 2 always. I think we have to rely on the fact that our opponents will diversify their SB hate, so they'll only have 1 Relic of Progenitus to draw the whole match and I'm not metagaming vs. 1 card they have to draw in their first 7 out of 75 cards - especially with Street Wraith.

The best way to play this deck is to give the metagame and SB hate the finger and just do what you do.

Michael Keller
07-29-2011, 03:04 AM
When you have the thoughtline of ''I'mma gonna Unmask myself, yeah!'' you lost your match, scoop it up and move on. I have never Unmasked myself in all the games of Dredge I have ever played in Eternal. If I want to Umask myself I will say fuck it and play One with Nothing. Yes thats how good the idea of Unmask on yourself is. Use Unmask on the person sitting in front of you always. Even if they have Misdirection.

Usually you can just DDD and play through Surgical Extraction AND Tormod's Crypt in a game need be depending on how resilient your list is. Running more creatures gives you a better chance, so I go x4Ichorid,Bloodghast,Nether Shadow-Narc. 16 Beaters is usally enough to nail them out combined with ''derp derp catch all cabal therapy''. Gitaxian Probe is worth running.. I would almost say always. If they Mental Misstep is they just Shock'd themselves and that puts you on a faster clock for Beatz.

Dread Return targets are probably the best issue to discuss. I have Angel of Despair as my MD target still and it works fine in conjunction with FKZ. Sphinx's really aren't needed as a filler target and would be better off giving you room for more beats.

The combo thing? Well I think I have some alright chances. I have x4 Mindbreak Trap and x4 Mental Misstep plus x3 Leyline of Sanctity. Against The Hive Minds I prolly have to get lucky like I would if they shuffled up LoTV and starting mulling.

What are you even talking about? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounded? See, this is why players like this don't take the time to explore all avenues of testing or maximizing the use out of every potential option and sputter off nonsense like using One With Nothing, when you've obviously forgotten this is a Manaless Dredge deck. That means good luck finding one of three cards in your entire deck in conjunction with a terrible option susceptible to Mental Misstep.

It's a legitimate option instead of giving your opponent a free draw and turn before you can do anything. Explain to me intelligently why I should play a card as terrible as One With Nothing over a Dredge staple like Unmask...no matter how it's used.

Also, you should be using Sphinx as 4eak mentioned. It's a blowout when it hits and chaining into FKZ is much better than destroying a random permanent.

KevinTrudeau
07-29-2011, 03:21 AM
I'm more or less settled on a 16 cantrip MD and a "grinder" SB, Ichorid and Narcomoeba have been more than enough to support an average of T3 Dread Return and the Gigapedge, Nether Shadow and the Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast engine is the best SB vs Tormod's Crypt esq. hate.

The number of Phantasmagorians is not debatable, I understand how AJ is using them in his list, but I think he is underestimating the consistency of drawing them in his oppenning hand or dredging into them in his first 4.5 cards, no card does more in Manaless Dredge than Phantasmagorian and it has been absolutely critical in all of my turn 3 goldfishes.

"Final" list

MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Streeth Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
SB
4 Nether Shadow
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
3 Gigapede

Cool take on the maindeck and its correlation with the sideboard. I'd definitely go with +1 Sphinx/Kelpie over the second Zealot because the additional Sphinx will find your Zealot in addition to any silver bullet sideboard target you may be in need of. Speaking of which, are you sure it's a good idea to not run something like a single Terastodon or Angel of Despair in the board?


@Final Fortune The idea of having limited game versus Relic of Progenitus is terrific, what a great sideboard. Relic like.. is hard to fight even with Bauble and Street Wraith helping because they will eventually wipe the slate clean and draw a card. So you stalled them.. till they find another Relic. I think your on a good track for boarding in Beatz though. Gigapedge? Is this like ''Core-44''.

'Core 44' was a failed attempt of mine to subscribe the people in this thread to use a shorthand writing of the decklist for ease of use; it also established a minor reassurance of the core of the deck. The idea was taken from the Goblins thread, but never took off. Just forget it ever happened.


Also, you should be using Sphinx as 4eak mentioned. It's a blowout when it hits and chaining into FKZ is much better than destroying a random permanent.

Glad you're on board with the Sphinx/Zealot plan. ;)

bruizar
07-29-2011, 05:46 AM
Okay, here are some ideas that may or may not be worth looking into.


Idea #1: Aether Vial
This may be a pretty crazy idea, but I thought about using AEther Vial as a sideboard card. It's going to take infinite turns to ramp it, but the opponent is going to be slower too. Mental Misstep is probably the first card that your opponent is going to sideboard out. If you win the first game, your opponent will probably let you play instead of draw. Aether Vial benefits from this. You have high threat density, and although the creatures aren't spectacular, it's an extra way to swarm the board.

Gigapede and Phantasmagorian are big enough to win games against decks like Standstill. You may still get beat by Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives for 1, though.

Idea #2: Hate Sideboard
In addition to the 3 Dakmor Salvages, you can go to 11 lands by using your sideboard to fight hate:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
3 Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence


Idea #3: Golgari Brownscale / Firemane Angel
This deck probably doesn't need life. Ancestor's Chosen is probably a lot better than these cards too. Golgari Brownscale is a dredger (albeit slow), that gives you life every time you dredge. This is useful, because it serves 2 roles. It buys you a little more time and it's still a dredger. The biggest problem is that it isn't black, so Shambling Shell is still better. If you are looking to cut gigapedes, I would consider replacing them with Golgari Brownscale.

Another interesting card is Firemane Angel. I really like the fact that you don't have to do anything for the lifegain, which is relevant against a deck like Burn (which has recently been having some success). If that deck shows up more, both Golgari Brownscale and Firemane Angel could could really kill the deck. I like these a bit better than Ancestor's Chosen because Ancestor's Chosen requires dread return and 3 creatures, which you will not have against burn.

These cards are not relevant now but it's nice to know that whenever we need lifegain, there is plenty to go around.

Idea #4: Vengeful Pharaoh
I really like this card, even if it isn't nice to remove your own bridges. The thing about Pharaoh is that you can remove them to Ichorid if there are bridges in your graveyard, and you can cheat them in your graveyard with Phantasmagorian during the attack step.

Bridges are really good, I realize that. But sometimes, you don't have bridges, or you have bridges without creatures. In those situations, Vengeful Pharaoh can hold down the fort until Nether Shadows, Narcomoebas and Bloodghasts take over. With Vengeful Pharaoh, your deck will be more inevitable because your opponent can't really attack into you and you just build up a bunch of free creatures every turn, EVEN without Bridge from below. You also have the choice of dredging him back in the graveyard or drawing him, after he's returned to the top of your deck. It is also a solid Dread Return target (Death Touch, 4 turn clock, out of bolt range)


Comment about bauble lists
I don't like how people try to speed up the maindeck and sideboard into Rausche's list in game 2. If you find yourself losing game 1, you are either playing against combo (If the meta is better for combo than for dredge you should have played combo anyway), or you're a bit unlucky/bad.

Final Fortune
07-29-2011, 06:15 AM
Yeah, -1 Flame Kin Zealot for +1 Sphinx of Lost Truths or River Kelpie is a given, you'd rather Dread Return Sphinx of Lost Truth once or twice and develop your board position over Flame Kin Zealot in any situation in which Flame Kin Zealot can't end the game.

I'm more or less certain on Terrastadon not being included in the 75, all of the relevant hate cards stop us from dredging, so relying on an anti-hate card that has to be dredged and Dread Returned is weak. If I start losing games to Moat or Propaganda, I'll reconsider my position, but until then anti-hate should be avoided and when you think about it any time they plan to play one of these cards on turn 3+ we've got really good odds of Therapying them off it.

Honestly, I can't find a single, reactive card in the SB that's worth a damn vs anything.

Regarding Unmask, I'd rather play Lion's Eye Diamond, because you're fucked if they counter Unmask or remove your Dredger regardless so you may as well lose one less card when Lion's Eye Diamond is countered and discard 5 cards instead of 1.

@Bruizar

Not true, Manaless Dredge has issues racing High Tide, Hive Mind and Burn, deck's that don't interact in the attack step to kill you by turn 4 are a serious issue and need to be raced. Until some one can actually show me a legitimate use for the SB that really mproves a match up enough to win games post-board, it's just better to play a transformative board instead.

Dredge doesn't auto-win game 1 vs everything, which is exactly why I've found myself falling into the Bauble and Sphinx/Zealot camp.

Michael Keller
07-29-2011, 09:11 AM
And what happens if your opponent drops Crypt after LED? That's a total blowout. Unmask doesn't fill it up, but it gives you the necessary enabler to slow-dredge around hate. Big difference.

I think the deck has a much easier time getting around Crypt and Relic as opposed to Leyline and Elephant Grass (or Propaganda-like effects). Nature's Claim is the obvious catch-all, but with all of the additional talk surrounding Reverent Silence is it worth it to give the opponent so much life considering we're going for the 'grind 'em' out strategy here?

Also, while we're on the subject of Nature's Claim, what does everyone think of Elvish Spirit Guide?

Shax
07-29-2011, 11:51 AM
I have some good locks of hair, I wonder why I get pimpslapped for stating my opinion?

Using Sphinx is a good way to win you the game now, but granted having something that has other narrow aplications is good too. I think Sphinx should be replaced with Cephalid Colliseum because it is a land. amiright?

Elvish Spirit Guide.. Is not so good of a idea. We potentially make our Leyline matchup not a auto scoop by going -2 but worse since we DDD on ourselves and giving them +4 lifes. I like the idea of have 1 card or 2 to answer their hate, and if it works it will work since you got a game three anyways. 8(ESG,Claim) cards fills up your sideboard.

ajfirecracker
07-29-2011, 01:03 PM
New idea for the anti-Leyline of the Void plan, if you really want it:

Maindeck:
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Fetchland
4 Bloodghast

SB:
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Nature's Claim
4 Emerald Charm

Why on earth would you want to do this? The answer is simple: You only spend 1 card killing Leyline of the Void if you use Undiscovered Paradise or Chancellor of the Tangle to do it, which is better than spending 2.

Final Fortune
07-29-2011, 01:14 PM
You are fucked either way, you will not recover from being 3 cards and 1 dredger down via. Unmask so you may as well go all in with Lion's Eye Diamond. Packing "anti-hate" is stupid, pointless and completely a waste of SB space, you can't play around the hate without destroying the synergy of the deck. Dredge's only choice is to play thru' hate, which it is much better at than people give it credit for.

We're not playing aggro-control, we're not going to have evenly spread winning percentages versus the field with a wet blanket of counterspells and SB hate. We're Dredge, we are going to have horrendously lopsided games in our favor and hope to god our deck is far enough off the radar to embarass the competition.

It's the nature of the beast, just accept it.

jin
07-29-2011, 01:39 PM
When you have the thoughtline of ''I'mma gonna Unmask myself, yeah!'' you lost your match, scoop it up and move on...

Although I feel that Unmasking yourself isn't that great of an idea, I do feel that the deck needs a bit more disrupt. Without being cast, people often readily counters my Cabal Therapy allowing 1 or 2 in late game which has little to no affect on their hand. It might as well be a Gritixian Probe. For this reason, I feel that Unmask might be important to fill in a gap that used to be filled by a hardcasted Cabal Therapy. Either that or I'm playing Cabal Therapy wrong....


Okay, here are some ideas that may or may not be worth looking into.


Idea #1: Aether Vial
This may be a pretty crazy idea, but I thought about using AEther Vial as a sideboard card. It's going to take infinite turns to ramp it, but the opponent is going to be slower too. Mental Misstep is probably the first card that your opponent is going to sideboard out. If you win the first game, your opponent will probably let you play instead of draw. Aether Vial benefits from this. You have high threat density, and although the creatures aren't spectacular, it's an extra way to swarm the board.

Gigapede and Phantasmagorian are big enough to win games against decks like Standstill. You may still get beat by Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives for 1, though.

Idea #2: Hate Sideboard
In addition to the 3 Dakmor Salvages, you can go to 11 lands by using your sideboard to fight hate:
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
3 Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence


Idea #3: Golgari Brownscale / Firemane Angel
This deck probably doesn't need life. Ancestor's Chosen is probably a lot better than these cards too. Golgari Brownscale is a dredger (albeit slow), that gives you life every time you dredge. This is useful, because it serves 2 roles. It buys you a little more time and it's still a dredger. The biggest problem is that it isn't black, so Shambling Shell is still better. If you are looking to cut gigapedes, I would consider replacing them with Golgari Brownscale.

Another interesting card is Firemane Angel. I really like the fact that you don't have to do anything for the lifegain, which is relevant against a deck like Burn (which has recently been having some success). If that deck shows up more, both Golgari Brownscale and Firemane Angel could could really kill the deck. I like these a bit better than Ancestor's Chosen because Ancestor's Chosen requires dread return and 3 creatures, which you will not have against burn.

These cards are not relevant now but it's nice to know that whenever we need lifegain, there is plenty to go around.

Idea #4: Vengeful Pharaoh
I really like this card, even if it isn't nice to remove your own bridges. The thing about Pharaoh is that you can remove them to Ichorid if there are bridges in your graveyard, and you can cheat them in your graveyard with Phantasmagorian during the attack step.

Bridges are really good, I realize that. But sometimes, you don't have bridges, or you have bridges without creatures. In those situations, Vengeful Pharaoh can hold down the fort until Nether Shadows, Narcomoebas and Bloodghasts take over. With Vengeful Pharaoh, your deck will be more inevitable because your opponent can't really attack into you and you just build up a bunch of free creatures every turn, EVEN without Bridge from below. You also have the choice of dredging him back in the graveyard or drawing him, after he's returned to the top of your deck. It is also a solid Dread Return target (Death Touch, 4 turn clock, out of bolt range)


Comment about bauble lists
I don't like how people try to speed up the maindeck and sideboard into Rausche's list in game 2. If you find yourself losing game 1, you are either playing against combo (If the meta is better for combo than for dredge you should have played combo anyway), or you're a bit unlucky/bad.

You have interesting ideas. Also, I agree with your comment about baubles. I myself choose to stick pretty closely to Rausch's main deck. I guess to most people, it feels like Rausch preboarded..


You are fucked either way, you will not recover from being 3 cards and 1 dredger down via. Unmask so you may as well go all in with Lion's Eye Diamond. Packing "anti-hate" is stupid, pointless and completely a waste of SB space, you can't play around the hate without destroying the synergy of the deck. Dredge's only choice is to play thru' hate, which it is much better at than people give it credit for.

We're not playing aggro-control, we're not going to have evenly spread winning percentages versus the field with a wet blanket of counterspells and SB hate. We're Dredge, we are going to have horrendously lopsided games in our favor and hope to god our deck is far enough off the radar to embarass the competition.

It's the nature of the beast, just accept it.

I concur.. Anti-hate seems like it requires too many of the 75 to change warping the entire deck..

Michael Keller
07-29-2011, 01:49 PM
I think everyone's in agreement that there are several avenues we can explore as far as the main-deck is considered. There's the stock list Rausch played in Cincinnati, and there's also the Bauble list 4eak has mentioned. Either way, the deck can still explode very fast and I'm sure its Game One win percentages are through the roof.

I think our focus should shift to the sideboard here. The fact is the deck has virtually no mana, so we should ask ourselves if packing it in to relegated hate is the way to go or taking advantage of the opportunity to blend a well thought-out strategy to beat cards like Leyline, Crypt, etc. is worth considering.

Remember, it is very likely we'll be setup to play Game Two, which in turn can generate an advantage for us by giving us the opportunity to play something relevant.

ajfirecracker
07-30-2011, 12:41 AM
I think everyone's in agreement that there are several avenues we can explore as far as the main-deck is considered. There's the stock list Rausch played in Cincinnati, and there's also the Bauble list 4eak has mentioned. Either way, the deck can still explode very fast and I'm sure its Game One win percentages are through the roof.

I think our focus should shift to the sideboard here. The fact is the deck has virtually no mana, so we should ask ourselves if packing it in to relegated hate is the way to go or taking advantage of the opportunity to blend a well thought-out strategy to beat cards like Leyline, Crypt, etc. is worth considering.

Remember, it is very likely we'll be setup to play Game Two, which in turn can generate an advantage for us by giving us the opportunity to play something relevant.

The most powerful thing I can think of to board in Game 2 on the play is Lion's Eye Diamond, especially if your list has a lot of cantrips. Plopping some zombie tokens into play Turn 1 will steal the game against most decks if you can manage it, and LED flat-out beats Relic of Progenitus unless they have fast mana to play and activate it Turn 1.

The Leylines are also enticing, obviously, as is Chancellor of the Annex. Unmask seems bad, Bojuka Bog seems good (in my opinion the best GY hate except against other Manaless decks), and Mindbreak Trap seems workable.

The thing is, all this we know. I think it's hard to discuss a sideboard without discussing the main-deck.

Alternately (and here we're getting into stupid bad stuff land) you could load up on free guys with Memnite, Basking Rootwalla, and Chancellor of the Forge, and hope to just bash your Leyline-weilding opponent to death.

jin
07-30-2011, 04:17 AM
The most powerful thing I can think of to board in Game 2 on the play is Lion's Eye Diamond, especially if your list has a lot of cantrips. Plopping some zombie tokens into play Turn 1 will steal the game against most decks if you can manage it, and LED flat-out beats Relic of Progenitus unless they have fast mana to play and activate it Turn 1.

Alternately (and here we're getting into stupid bad stuff land) you could load up on free guys with Memnite, Basking Rootwalla, and Chancellor of the Forge, and hope to just bash your Leyline-weilding opponent to death.


Agreed about LED. I also agree about bashing with dorks. It has worked with old dredge strategies...

bruizar
07-30-2011, 06:00 AM
Although I feel that Unmasking yourself isn't that great of an idea, I do feel that the deck needs a bit more disrupt. Without being cast, people often readily counters my Cabal Therapy allowing 1 or 2 in late game which has little to no affect on their hand. It might as well be a Gritixian Probe. For this reason, I feel that Unmask might be important to fill in a gap that used to be filled by a hardcasted Cabal Therapy. Either that or I'm playing Cabal Therapy wrong....



You have interesting ideas. Also, I agree with your comment about baubles. I myself choose to stick pretty closely to Rausch's main deck. I guess to most people, it feels like Rausch preboarded..



I concur.. Anti-hate seems like it requires too many of the 75 to change warping the entire deck..

I have 1 more fresh idea:


-3 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Woodfall Primus
-1 Dread Return
- Other stuff

//Add:
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lava Dart
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
1 Sun Titan

(+1 Savannah in sideboard, to gain access to Angel's Grace)

You trade Dakmor Salvage for Chandra's Phoenix with Lava Dart. This means you can run Taiga instead of Dakmor Salvage. If you drop a fetch, you can decide later whether you want to get Dryad Arbor or Taiga. Dryad Arbor is good with Reverent Silence and Cabal Therapy/Dread Return.

You don't need Woodfall Primus anymore, since you can fly over Moat with Chandra's Phoenix, or shoot a Peacekeeper with Lava Dart. Sun Titan gives you access to your lands, triggering both landfall and returning Taiga for Lava Dart so you can swarm with ghasts and phoenixes. Lava Dart can get countered, but I still think it's worth looking into. The reason to run this is to support a sideboard that can fight through hate. This mana base gives you great sideboard options:

1 Savannah + Angel's Grace - Hive Mind and other combo
Ancient Grudge - Tormod's Crypt and Relics
Reverent Silence - Leyline of the Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon
Nature's Claim - Best disenchant

Lava Dart can also take care of Yixlid Jailer.

The deck would probably be a lot worse against the decks where you should be winning anyway, but it would be a lot stronger against the decks you have troubles against. (Combo, Burn, excessive GY hate). The reason for this is the lower threat density due to more lands, and Chandra's Phoenix requiring some setup with a land / Lava Dart or Dread Return / Sun Titan. I'm not sure if I can find the right configuration without cutting too many dredgers though, and Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog is still a problem.

Ziilot
07-30-2011, 06:10 AM
So, what are you planning to do with all Chandra's Phoenixes in your hand?

bruizar
07-30-2011, 06:24 AM
So, what are you planning to do with all Chandra's Phoenixes in your hand?

Phantasmagorian

ajfirecracker
07-30-2011, 02:47 PM
I have 1 more fresh idea:


-3 Dakmor Salvage
-1 Woodfall Primus
-1 Dread Return
- Other stuff

//Add:
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lava Dart
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga
1 Sun Titan

(+1 Savannah in sideboard, to gain access to Angel's Grace)

You trade Dakmor Salvage for Chandra's Phoenix with Lava Dart. This means you can run Taiga instead of Dakmor Salvage. If you drop a fetch, you can decide later whether you want to get Dryad Arbor or Taiga. Dryad Arbor is good with Reverent Silence and Cabal Therapy/Dread Return.

You don't need Woodfall Primus anymore, since you can fly over Moat with Chandra's Phoenix, or shoot a Peacekeeper with Lava Dart. Sun Titan gives you access to your lands, triggering both landfall and returning Taiga for Lava Dart so you can swarm with ghasts and phoenixes. Lava Dart can get countered, but I still think it's worth looking into. The reason to run this is to support a sideboard that can fight through hate. This mana base gives you great sideboard options:

1 Savannah + Angel's Grace - Hive Mind and other combo
Ancient Grudge - Tormod's Crypt and Relics
Reverent Silence - Leyline of the Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon
Nature's Claim - Best disenchant

Lava Dart can also take care of Yixlid Jailer.

The deck would probably be a lot worse against the decks where you should be winning anyway, but it would be a lot stronger against the decks you have troubles against. (Combo, Burn, excessive GY hate). The reason for this is the lower threat density due to more lands, and Chandra's Phoenix requiring some setup with a land / Lava Dart or Dread Return / Sun Titan. I'm not sure if I can find the right configuration without cutting too many dredgers though, and Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog is still a problem.

I see no reason why you would run this package. Lava Dart is exiled whenever it would leave the stack via flashback (so you've included 2 points of burn damage in the deck for basically no reason), and cannot be flashed back to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Perhaps you were thinking Flame Jab (which also cannot deal with Jailer from the GY)? Personally, I think stuffing Raven's Crime into a Dakmor Salvage list makes a lot more sense than either.

Also, Chandra's Phoenix itself seems terrible. It only recurs itself to your hand, and only then off of a flashback'ed 2-of. You can only ever cast the thing if you've already Dread Return'ed Sun Titan, in which case you'd probably just recur the Phoenix to begin with. In short, in this deck the card reads: 1RR: Flying, Haste 2/2, not some actually-worth-considering recursive creature. Finally, why would you Dread Return Sun Titan in this deck? Winning on the spot seems a lot better than jumping through a bunch of hoops for the win. There's a reason we're not running 4 Mimeoplasm, 4 Lord of Extinction, 4 Murderous Redcap to go alongside our Dread Returns (and that's probably a better package than the one you're proposing!)

Finally, I see no reason at all why your list would be better against Combo, Burn, or any other fast, non-interactive deck.

As to the utility of Woodfall Primus: He could never kill Peacekeeper to begin with. He could, however, kill Ensnaring Bridge and Propaganda and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, to name a few.

bruizar
07-30-2011, 03:04 PM
I see no reason why you would run this package. Lava Dart is exiled whenever it would leave the stack via flashback (so you've included 2 points of burn damage in the deck for basically no reason), and cannot be flashed back to deal with Yixlid Jailer. Perhaps you were thinking Flame Jab (which also cannot deal with Jailer from the GY)? Personally, I think stuffing Raven's Crime into a Dakmor Salvage list makes a lot more sense than either.

Also, Chandra's Phoenix itself seems terrible. It only recurs itself to your hand, and only then off of a flashback'ed 2-of. You can only ever cast the thing if you've already Dread Return'ed Sun Titan, in which case you'd probably just recur the Phoenix to begin with. In short, in this deck the card reads: 1RR: Flying, Haste 2/2, not some actually-worth-considering recursive creature. Finally, why would you Dread Return Sun Titan in this deck? Winning on the spot seems a lot better than jumping through a bunch of hoops for the win. There's a reason we're not running 4 Mimeoplasm, 4 Lord of Extinction, 4 Murderous Redcap to go alongside our Dread Returns (and that's probably a better package than the one you're proposing!)

Finally, I see no reason at all why your list would be better against Combo, Burn, or any other fast, non-interactive deck.

As to the utility of Woodfall Primus: He could never kill Peacekeeper to begin with. He could, however, kill Ensnaring Bridge and Propaganda and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, to name a few.

I completely misread phoenix. Disregard post. As for primus, i dont like the slot too mich. I know peacekeeper is a sb card but that means you have to run other cards to deal with that, lava dart couldve been an answer if drawn into but the point is moot.

The entire reason was to afford running fetch, arbor and taiga/savannah, which give you rev silence, a. Grace, ancient grudge and natures claim, all of which are extremely good game 2/3 cards.

What I want is green and white mana, so I can afford Nature's Claim and Angel's Grace. Once you go down that path, you want to be able to fetch up Dryad Arbor. Riftstone Portal doesn't really work when there is a Leyline out, but it is the most synergistic land to get that kind of mana into play (dredge Dakmor Salvage, and cast Angel's Grace from that) but I'm pretty sure that's too slow against combo. Right now, I'm still trying Horizon Canopy and Dryad Arbor, but that makes Angel's Grace unreliable (You will hit your Dryad Arbor when you needed a Horizon Canopy) and it also makes Reverent Silence unreliable (You will have a Horizon Canopy when you needed a Dryad Arbor...). The Horizon Canopy's ability to dredge is really sweet though.In the end, these postboard shenanigans are probably best left for mana'd ichorid, and were the reason why Rausche played 15 robots in the sideboard. You could try to speed up the list against combo and resolve a Dread Return on Iona. Perhaps that's the best option, but I'm not even sure if thats good enough.

ajfirecracker
07-30-2011, 03:15 PM
I completely misread phoenix. Disregard post. As for primus, i dont like the slot too mich. I know peacekeeper is a sb card but that means you have to run other cards to deal with that, lava dart couldve been an answer if drawn into but the point is moot.

The entire reason was to afford running fetch, arbor and taiga/savannah, which give you rev silence, a. Grace, ancient grudge and natures claim, all of which are extremely good game 2/3 cards.

Angel's Grace is an extremely okay sideboard card. It doesn't stop any combo decks except Belcher and Hive Mind (as Tendrils of Agony causes loss of life). Against aggro decks, they'll bash you to 1, then either bash again to kill you or just burn you out on your turn.

Ancient Grudge is great. It's also completely unnecessary. What does it actually do anything against? Relic of Progenitus seems like the only card where you'd really need it, but then you're talking about missing two turns to pop the relic, at which point why not just run something else that lets you play through the tap ability?

Reverent Silence defeats Leyline of the Void, maybe, and Enchantress, probably. Doesn't seem worth it. If there's Leyline of the Void floating around, you're probably better off hoping to miss them than running Reverent Silence. Sad, but true.

Nature's Claim is the same as the others, only rolled into one card in an attempt to fool you. Don't be fooled. Against artifacts, you only really need it against Relic (assuming you've got a wise mix of DR targets in your 75), and it's not really worth it against Leyline, so why bother running it?

Hot tech/idea: If you're in a winning position Game 3 (or 2!) of Round 1 of a sufficiently large tournament, offer your opponent a draw. You lose a little bit of points but the draw bracket is going to be almost all control decks. I'd definitely run Child of Alara if you're thinking of doing this (SB or Main) as you'll probably see a lot of prison as well.

KevinTrudeau
07-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Hot tech/idea: If you're in a winning position Game 3 (or 2!) of Round 1 of a sufficiently large tournament, offer your opponent a draw. You lose a little bit of points but the draw bracket is going to be almost all control decks. I'd definitely run Child of Alara if you're thinking of doing this (SB or Main) as you'll probably see a lot of prison as well.

I was considering Child of Alara as well since there are a few Enchantress players where I live, and double Sterling Grove+Elephant Grass would be quite awkward. I don't think it has wide enough applications to be seriously considered, but it's certainly something to keep in your back pocket.

ajfirecracker
07-30-2011, 04:07 PM
I was considering Child of Alara as well since there are a few Enchantress players where I live, and double Sterling Grove+Elephant Grass would be quite awkward. I don't think it has wide enough applications to be seriously considered, but it's certainly something to keep in your back pocket.

Wide enough applications? I've found it to be easily the best Angel of Despair you can run. It plays havoc on any prison deck, and blows up any defense not based on lands. He's also awesome against aggro, while similar options are merely okay (Angel of Despair) or downright ineffective (Terastodon). If it hasn't been awesome for you, you're probably using it wrong.

Here's how I use Child of Alara: Dread Return Child of Alara, nothing happens. Sacrifice Child of Alara to Dread Return. Before Dread Return resolves, Child of Alara triggers and wipes the game. Then Dread Return resolves. You now have a giant guy and they have a manabase. Ideally, that giant guy is Realm Razer (or Sundering Titan, but he's a little narrow for my tastes). In tandem, this allows you to answer basically any board position. (Iona on Black and Trinisphere being the only obvious exceptions). If they didn't have any creatures, you actually get a giant guy and a horde of zombies.

The nice thing about Realm Razer in particular is that he can answer a lot of decks and locks by himself. Most locks requires mana to sustain themselves, including Solitary Confinement and Peacekeeper (and even Ensnaring Bridge to some degree), so removing the opposing manabase is often lethal, with a few turns' delay.

Obviously, the whole chain requires 2 Dread Return to function, but even if you use Cabal Therapy to sacrifice Child of Alara, you have Ichorid to give you a quick victory.

What I like best about the spectral baby is how wide his applications really are. Child of Alara can hit everything except lands, which is (imo) what you hit the least with your other targets.

KevinTrudeau
07-30-2011, 09:00 PM
What I meant to say was, "wide enough applications where it would be better than Angel of Despair or Terastodon/Woodfall Primus." But yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking about it correctly when I thought of it as a way around problem permanents, I was thinking about it alone instead of in tandem with another Return target; the 1-2 punch that Child of Alara and Realm Razer throw is mighty devastating against prison and lock decks, really just slow decks in general. It has a downside in that your Bridges will likely get removed, but that really won't matter because of Ichorid and Nether Shadow recursion, and the Zombie tokens you'll have likely receiveed. Also, because of Cabal Therapy, an opponent's comeback would be quite unlikely (although, there are several small outs an opponent could have, like Tundra->topdecked StP, but that's really not going to cut it against the rest of your army of Zombies). I like it, and will for sure test it out. Definitely seems like it could potentially replace Angel/The Rasta Don/Primus altogether in the sideboard.

ajfirecracker
07-31-2011, 01:54 PM
What I meant to say was, "wide enough applications where it would be better than Angel of Despair or Terastodon/Woodfall Primus." But yeah, I definitely wasn't thinking about it correctly when I thought of it as a way around problem permanents, I was thinking about it alone instead of in tandem with another Return target; the 1-2 punch that Child of Alara and Realm Razer throw is mighty devastating against prison and lock decks, really just slow decks in general. It has a downside in that your Bridges will likely get removed, but that really won't matter because of Ichorid and Nether Shadow recursion, and the Zombie tokens you'll have likely receiveed. Also, because of Cabal Therapy, an opponent's comeback would be quite unlikely (although, there are several small outs an opponent could have, like Tundra->topdecked StP, but that's really not going to cut it against the rest of your army of Zombies). I like it, and will for sure test it out. Definitely seems like it could potentially replace Angel/The Rasta Don/Primus altogether in the sideboard.

If Child of Alara going to the graveyard triggers and destroys everything, you only wind up with zombie tokens if your Bridge from Below are safe in the graveyard.

Here's how it works:
Stack - First to resolve
Child of Alara's death trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Stack - Last to resolve

so first the world blows up then you get tokens. Any other ordering obviously destroys some or all of your tokens with Child of Alara's effect.

If they have creatures, though, it looks like this:
Stack - First to resolve
Child of Alara's death trigger => Exile Bridges
Bridge from Below Trigger
Bridge from Below Trigger
Stack - Last to resolve

Obviously, if you stack it any other way, you're still exiling Bridge from Below's and winding up with 0 zombie tokens.

KevinTrudeau
07-31-2011, 02:04 PM
Right, you won't get any tokens from Child itself if the opponent has creatures, but you will if you stack it properly via all Narcomoebas/Ichorids/Nether Shadows that would have been in play when "Destroy all nonland permanents" resolves (of course, if your opponent has no creatures in play, Bridges stay safe and sound). Meaning, you should try to sac creature tokens to Dread Return if possible before any creatures in this scenario, since any tokens made before the "Destroy all nonland permanents" trigger will be dead and gone.

Michael Keller
07-31-2011, 11:23 PM
The Leylines are also enticing, obviously, as is Chancellor of the Annex. Unmask seems bad, Bojuka Bog seems good (in my opinion the best GY hate except against other Manaless decks), and Mindbreak Trap seems workable.

I fail to see how being forced to pass the turn and allowing your opponent to draw a card, play a land, and more than likely run out some form of relegated hate adversely affects the power of Unmask out of the sideboard. I think you're underestimating its utility in a deck using very little mana, especially when it has the ability to run the deck out of the gates a turn faster than usual.

I could see it as one of the most powerful cards out of the sideboard to speed the deck up a full turn. Your opponent is not going to keep a card like Force of Will in their deck as the only necessary spell it hits is Dread Return, which becomes moot anyways as you should already be in position to run them over with multiple threats on board and Cabal Therapy at the ready. Unmask is the only spell in existence that allows you to proactively discard a card for free from your hand - without necessitating a land-drop - as that kind of utility in a deck like this seems far too good to dismiss without proper testing.

Unmask on the forced play will dodge cards like Daze and Spell Pierce, and it obviously gets around Mental Misstep. It punishes an opponent for forcing you to be on the play. Giving an opponent the chance to get that far ahead without having any action before your third turn seems relatively bad without some way of actually doing something.

ajfirecracker
07-31-2011, 11:54 PM
I fail to see how being forced to pass the turn and allowing your opponent to draw a card, play a land, and more than likely run out some form of relegated hate adversely affects the power of Unmask out of the sideboard. I think you're underestimating its utility in a deck using very little mana, especially when it has the ability to run the deck out of the gates a turn faster than usual.

I could see it as one of the most powerful cards out of the sideboard to speed the deck up a full turn. Your opponent is not going to keep a card like Force of Will in their deck as the only necessary spell it hits is Dread Return, which becomes moot anyways as you should already be in position to run them over with multiple threats on board and Cabal Therapy at the ready. Unmask is the only spell in existence that allows you to proactively discard a card for free from your hand - without necessitating a land-drop - as that kind of utility in a deck like this seems far too good to dismiss without proper testing.

Unmask on the forced play will dodge cards like Daze and Spell Pierce, and it obviously gets around Mental Misstep. It punishes an opponent for forcing you to be on the play. Giving an opponent the chance to get that far ahead without having any action before your third turn seems relatively bad without some way of actually doing something.

Lion's Eye Diamond seems orders of magnitude better, when you're talking about making yourself discard.

As a disruptive tool, Unmask is generally too little too late.

Michael Keller
08-01-2011, 01:18 AM
Lion's Eye Diamond seems orders of magnitude better, when you're talking about making yourself discard.

As a disruptive tool, Unmask is generally too little too late.

You're using Unmask as a discard outlet for yourself on the play Games Two and Three; you put yourself at even greater risk with L.E.D. as it forces you to immediately fold to Leyline or Crypt. Unmask provides you a way of slow-Dredging without over-committing to one card. Unmask should intentionally be used as a discard outlet for yourself, or if you're on the play and discard a card your second turn, you can Dredge and use Unmask as an aversion against cards like Relic of Progenitus. In this instance, you have given yourself the flexibility to work around the card you've manually discarded with the extra-added ability of discarding another card with the outlet Unmask provides. It's solid bait for an opponent to bite on.

Also, supposing you're relegated to being on the play Game Two and you have a Leyline of the Void in your opening grip (if you opt to run them); you drop Leyline and go down to six. You now have to wait three turns before you do anything, and even then, you need to wait until the fourth for it to be relevant. Unmask at least gives you an out to discarding on the first or second turn as opposed to the third. That seems quite effective.

It's basically two-fold, with its primary utility as a free out on the first turn or targeted at an opponent turn three. At worst, it's a free discard spell that doesn't require any lands. Lion's Eye Diamond requires a full commitment, something this deck doesn't seem to enjoy partaking in as it only really requires a single outlet to do the most damage (Gigapede and/or Phantasmagorian). The key part of all of this discussion again rests on the shoulders of thought that the deck just sucks it up and takes a loss when relegated hate hits the table, which is wrong. If there is a way around that, we should be tackling it post-board. It might require changing the deck schematically, but if we can find the right configuration, it's flat-out better than losing.

On a side-note: I have pretty much been happy at three Phantasmagorian; it seems like the right number. I am just really interested at what everyone's take on the sideboard is.

KevinTrudeau
08-01-2011, 02:20 AM
Eh, I'd say ditching three cards via Unmask (a minimum of two) is already overcommitting enough, you might as well go all out and play LED (risks a minimum of one card, doesn't an exile a black card to cast which can actually be somewhat important, and has higher gains).

I'm kind of liking LED (or Unmask, if you prefer to play it) conceptually out of the board game two after you win game one- it means you can now mulligan and not be completely screwed, and as Hollywood pointed out, it has exceptional synergy with Leylines (specifically Leyline of Sanctity, which I consider to be the only playable one in this deck). Since I have absolutely nothing set in stone for the sideboard, especially now that Child of Alara/Realm Razer could feasibly take the place of Angel/Rasta Don/Primus, this could be a good starting point to test with.

Pulp_Fiction
08-01-2011, 03:05 AM
I like the idea of LED against combo and aggro, especially since it allows you to run Deep Analysis as well ... but it also opens up more vulnerabilities to hate cards. I would agree with Hollywood since Unmask does not make you overcommit. LED just makes u go balls and, and if u got nothing to follow it up with, u just flat out lose. Unmask sets u back but avoids this. It really depends on what you want to do with the deck and each players' particular playstyle. I have and always will hate LED in dredge because of the all-in factor, but thats me.

I am not sure I am getting where u are wanting to go with Child of Alara. Ur goal is to clear the board, remove ur Bridges, reset the board, then start beating face with Ichorids and Shadows again? If so, does this lose to StP. I mean, if u have no DR or Therapy in the yard, its 100% worthless, but if u do, does the opponent ever get priority to remove it? I don't think they do but ... this could be a serious problem if so. Also, where would this be better than Angel of Despair ... maybe against Enchantress, but they usually rebuild ungodly fast and lock us out of the game with Wheel of Sun and Moon anyway, seems like a horrid match to work on. But I can't really see where it would be than Angel/Terrastodon/Primus.

Also, some interesting food for thought, Edge of Autumn. If u run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Salvage, this could be another powerful uncounterable draw spell that has the added benefit of being super explosive w Bloodghast. Downside is that it is 100% reliant on the Salvage, but if can't get countered like my very disliked Probe. This is something I really like in theory but is totally untested, may have potential.

I have added Greater Mossdog and totally cut Bloodghast/Salvage from my list and really like it. I am only running 4x Bauble, 4x Wraith with 4x DR, 2x Sphinx, 1x FKZ main and it really is enough. I really like the consistency of having more 3+ dredgers and its in there over Darkblast since it is a creature in the yard to bring back more Shadows. Bloodghast is still solid but he feels really unneeded. I never, ever want to dredge back Salvage, but when I do, it seems like I am always winning and this is just win-more. There just seems to be no situation that this deck can get itself into that dredge 2, reanimate Bloodghast would be ... needed. Does anyone feel the same about it?

ajfirecracker
08-01-2011, 04:13 AM
I like the idea of LED against combo and aggro, especially since it allows you to run Deep Analysis as well ... but it also opens up more vulnerabilities to hate cards. I would agree with Hollywood since Unmask does not make you overcommit. LED just makes u go balls and, and if u got nothing to follow it up with, u just flat out lose. Unmask sets u back but avoids this. It really depends on what you want to do with the deck and each players' particular playstyle. I have and always will hate LED in dredge because of the all-in factor, but thats me.

I am not sure I am getting where u are wanting to go with Child of Alara. Ur goal is to clear the board, remove ur Bridges, reset the board, then start beating face with Ichorids and Shadows again? If so, does this lose to StP. I mean, if u have no DR or Therapy in the yard, its 100% worthless, but if u do, does the opponent ever get priority to remove it? I don't think they do but ... this could be a serious problem if so. Also, where would this be better than Angel of Despair ... maybe against Enchantress, but they usually rebuild ungodly fast and lock us out of the game with Wheel of Sun and Moon anyway, seems like a horrid match to work on. But I can't really see where it would be than Angel/Terrastodon/Primus.

Also, some interesting food for thought, Edge of Autumn. If u run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Salvage, this could be another powerful uncounterable draw spell that has the added benefit of being super explosive w Bloodghast. Downside is that it is 100% reliant on the Salvage, but if can't get countered like my very disliked Probe. This is something I really like in theory but is totally untested, may have potential.

I have added Greater Mossdog and totally cut Bloodghast/Salvage from my list and really like it. I am only running 4x Bauble, 4x Wraith with 4x DR, 2x Sphinx, 1x FKZ main and it really is enough. I really like the consistency of having more 3+ dredgers and its in there over Darkblast since it is a creature in the yard to bring back more Shadows. Bloodghast is still solid but he feels really unneeded. I never, ever want to dredge back Salvage, but when I do, it seems like I am always winning and this is just win-more. There just seems to be no situation that this deck can get itself into that dredge 2, reanimate Bloodghast would be ... needed. Does anyone feel the same about it?

You only bring in LED against the decks that are fast enough to disregard GY hate. With a bunch of cantrips (and ideally, playing first) you can race basically any deck.

Child of Alara is really, really good. Try it, and if you don't like it run something else. You can maintain priority as Child enters and cast another spell, such as a flashback'ed Cabal Therapy or Dread Return. Beating down on an empty board only loses to Swords to Plowshares if they have enough for all your attackers, which is unlikely. Even if they drew the full playset, even the 2-Nether Shadow lists I favor tend to recur more than 4 creatures in a game, not to mention zombie tokens.

I agree that Bloodghast just isn't necessary for the deck, although he does help somewhat against GY hate as he sticks around (and has 2, rather than 1, power).

I don't like Edge of Autumn (it tends to be the butt of my manaless/bloodghast jokes), but if you're already on 4x Dakmor Salvage, some number of Edges couldn't hurt... too much.

Greater Mossdog is probably the wrong choice. Darkblast (with Dakmor Salvage) helps deal with random guys that need dealing with (mostly Peacekeeper, but Yixlid Jailer if you're un/lucky), and Golgari Brownscale gains life. Necroplasm only has Dredge 2 but can be fed to Ichorid. I would say recurring Ichorid is more important than recurring Nether Shadow (and more likely to happen on its own, as GY order doesn't matter), but the insurance provided by Darkblast seems more important than either.

Final Fortune
08-01-2011, 09:38 AM
Every game you lose with LED vs Tormod's Crypt you lose with Unmask vs Tormod's Crypt, you are not comming back at -3 cards.

If you guys want to play LED, I recommend playing the original Manaless Dredge deck I posted on the first page and then SBing into something more consistent. I still think that deck has ton a ton of promise conceptually speaking.

Salvage/Ghast is only for game 2 and 3, you want every recursion mechanic you can get your hands on to fight thru' hate post-board.

Michael Keller
08-01-2011, 01:34 PM
Every game you lose with LED vs Tormod's Crypt you lose with Unmask vs Tormod's Crypt, you are not comming back at -3 cards.

If you guys want to play LED, I recommend playing the original Manaless Dredge deck I posted on the first page and then SBing into something more consistent. I still think that deck has ton a ton of promise conceptually speaking.

Salvage/Ghast is only for game 2 and 3, you want every recursion mechanic you can get your hands on to fight thru' hate post-board.

But that just isn't true because it is feasible to slow-Dredge around a Crypt or Relic instead of completely dumping your hand and basically going all-in on one draw. You're comparing recovering from eight lost cards as a result of L.E.D. to three cards lost as a result of Unmask. Unmask is more versatile and doesn't necessitate going all-in on one shot, especially if hate has already hit the table.

It's completely possible to explode after recovering from hate by the fourth turn. Most Combo decks don't care too much about the graveyard post-board; they care more about protecting their own interests with anti-hate-bear tech, but you'll notice more Control and Aggro Control decks do pack cards like Crypt and Relic. Those are some of your best match-ups and it's highly unlikely decks like those will kill you by the fourth turn if they've already committed their first two cards turn one (a land and hate with no damage pressure to you), with the extra-added potential of mulliganing to find a hate card. Now your opponent is down to six or five and probably kept a weak hand with one of those cards to blow you out - which wouldn't be the case if you had Unmask.

Our deck doesn't mulligan aggressively at all, so you could play draw-go for three turns (drawing into another potential Unmask) and stare down a Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique and Noble Hierarch and still blank them out after the fact. By chaining Dread Returns using Sphinx of the Lost Truths and chump blockers in Nether Shadow if need be, your turn four could even conceivably be good enough to combo out.

KevinTrudeau
08-01-2011, 01:59 PM
I am not sure I am getting where u are wanting to go with Child of Alara. Ur goal is to clear the board, remove ur Bridges, reset the board, then start beating face with Ichorids and Shadows again? If so, does this lose to StP. I mean, if u have no DR or Therapy in the yard, its 100% worthless, but if u do, does the opponent ever get priority to remove it? I don't think they do but ... this could be a serious problem if so. Also, where would this be better than Angel of Despair ... maybe against Enchantress, but they usually rebuild ungodly fast and lock us out of the game with Wheel of Sun and Moon anyway, seems like a horrid match to work on. But I can't really see where it would be than Angel/Terrastodon/Primus.

Yeah, that's why I'm still a bit skeptical of Child of Alara becoming a general target, because it does necessitate other cards to work, unlike the dependable Angel/Rasta/Primus trio. In order to cast Child and another target like Realm Razer to seal the deal, you might need to go through all four Dread Returns in the deck (possibly chaining two Sphinxes beforehand to find everything), which might be too much to ask. Of course, I need to actually play with the cards before I make any kind of judgment.


Greater Mossdog is probably the wrong choice. Darkblast (with Dakmor Salvage) helps deal with random guys that need dealing with (mostly Peacekeeper, but Yixlid Jailer if you're un/lucky), and Golgari Brownscale gains life. Necroplasm only has Dredge 2 but can be fed to Ichorid. I would say recurring Ichorid is more important than recurring Nether Shadow (and more likely to happen on its own, as GY order doesn't matter), but the insurance provided by Darkblast seems more important than either.

Golgari Brownscale would probably gain you less life over the course of a game than Greater Mossdog, considering the higher probability Mossdog has of hitting better dredgers, which then dredge into chump blockers. If you're planning on running dredgers 17-20, it'd be between Necroplasm and Mossdog (discounting Darkblast in Salvage lists, but at that point you're probably running too many dredgers), and I'd probably side with Mossdog.


But that just isn't true because it is feasible to slow-Dredge around a Crypt or Relic instead of completely dumping your hand and basically going all-in on one draw. You're comparing recovering from eight lost cards as a result of L.E.D. to three cards lost as a result of Unmask. Unmask is more versatile and doesn't necessitate going all-in on one shot, especially if hate has already hit the table.

It's completely possible to explode after recovering from hate by the fourth turn. Most Combo decks don't care too much about the graveyard post-board; they care more about protecting their own interests with anti-hate-bear tech, but you'll notice more Control and Aggro Control decks do pack cards like Crypt and Relic. Those are some of your best match-ups and it's highly unlikely decks like those will kill you by the fourth turn if they've already committed their first two cards turn one (a land and hate with no damage pressure to you), with the extra-added potential of mulliganing to find a hate card. Now your opponent is down to six or five and probably kept a weak hand with one of those cards to blow you out - which wouldn't be the case if you had Unmask.

Our deck doesn't mulligan aggressively at all, so you could play draw-go for three turns and stare down a Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique and Noble Hierarch and still blank them out after the fact. By chaining Dread Returns using Sphinx of the Lost Truths and chump blockers in Nether Shadow if need be, your turn four could even conceivably be good enough to combo out.

A slow-roll Dredge plan is not feasible after getting Crypted after a turn one Unmask. It'll be turn five before you actually discard, and turn six (!) before you start up the engine (barring Street Wraith). I'm not sure you could come back from that facing a SOM draft deck.

Izor
08-01-2011, 05:32 PM
As of Dredgers # 17-18/19/20:

If running Bloodghast one should run Dakmor Salvage obviously.

If not, I really like some combination of Darkblast and Dakmor Salvage. Salvages can still cast Therapies and pay Dazes from time to time and if you've got a Darkblast or two in your deck as well, you'll have the chance to kill random Peacekeepers and similar stuff. The only thing you lose are a few more creatures, which might lead to a Nather Shadow not being able to rise from the dead. IMHO the merits outweigh the flaws.

stalkerzero
08-01-2011, 11:33 PM
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

I just picked this up for my first Legacy deck since 2008. I know it's a far from optimal build (just copied one of the original lists that I saw).

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all who are working on this because every comment is read by a ton of either would-be or current Legacy players who are looking for help on the deck.

I think for my sideboard I'm going to try to just make it transformational LED Dredge if possible.

ESG
08-02-2011, 02:06 AM
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to all who are working on this because every comment is read by a ton of either would-be or current Legacy players who are looking for help on the deck.

Thanks for reading. There are a surprising number of people who just jump in and start posting before reading anything, so we appreciate those who do read what's already been discussed. (And I'm talking about The Source in general, not this thread specifically.)

Smea.gol.lum
08-02-2011, 10:37 AM
Hi,
i' ve constantly read articles and posts on the source and am glad to become a sourcer, too :P

I have got two innovations to think about:
1. Serum Powder to add consistency.
You could replace for example Shambling remains as it is a shabby dredge-3-creature
2. Call to the Netherworld: Together with Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the graveyard it becomes an instant draw spell and without Phanta it can fetch Street Wraith in the end step. Post-board it could harmonize with Faerie Macabre, but i'm not sure if it's just worse than the baubles because it doesn't help dodging relics and is missteppable.

Smea.gol.lum
08-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Edit: Call to the Netherworld could also enable Vengeful Pharao as perhaps a 2-of as it could prevent your bridges from getting removed via Phantasmagorian

Whippoorwill
08-02-2011, 04:26 PM
I searched the thread but didn't see any mention of this:

Why is Jin-Gitaxias not listed as a possible Dread Return target? StP is obviously the main thing against it since it doesn't do anything until the end of turn, but there's Cabal Therapy to clear those out first and if you only get 1 use of his draw 7 you're going to be able to dredge a lot of cards from it.

That_RaginG_Homo
08-02-2011, 04:46 PM
I have got two innovations to think about:
1. Serum Powder to add consistency.
You could replace for example Shambling remains as it is a shabby dredge-3-creature
2. Call to the Netherworld: Together with Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith in the graveyard it becomes an instant draw spell and without Phanta it can fetch Street Wraith in the end step. Post-board it could harmonize with Faerie Macabre, but i'm not sure if it's just worse than the baubles because it doesn't help dodging relics and is missteppable.

I tested both briefly, and I felt that neither of them were really worth it. With a 16 dredger list, you will rarely not have a dredger, and even if you dont, you are more likely than not to not have a Powder. If you really want to make the list more consistent, I think putting in more dredgers would be better. The powders arent relevant in the graveyard, and they just dont feel like theyre worth the 4 slots they take up: most of the time they dont do anything even if you do open with one.

Call to the Netherworld seems good in theory, but in practice, it just never happened for me (although my testing of it was somewhat brief). It takes 4 slots, you have to get it in your starting hand, its vunerable to MM, and it doesnt do anything in your graveyard. If you have a Phantasmagorian and a dredger in the yard, your probably not doing too badly anyways. The situation where you could use it with a Faerie Macabre or a Vengeful Pharaoh almost never comes up. If you are running a Bloodghast list, I feel that Edge of Autumn would be better, since at least dredging a salvage and cycling the Edge would trigger Bloodghasts and isnt counterable.

On the other hand, Ive never been a big fan of the Nether Shadows. What do you guys think about cutting the Nether Shadows and running 3 Phantasmagorian, 4 Bloodghast, 3 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Edge of Autumns? It looks like that configuration would have similiar speed of a Bauble list and have decent recursion abilities, although it might be somewhat inconstant.

Edit:
Why is Jin-Gitaxias not listed as a possible Dread Return target? StP is obviously the main thing against it since it doesn't do anything until the end of turn, but there's Cabal Therapy to clear those out first and if you only get 1 use of his draw 7 you're going to be able to dredge a lot of cards from it.
Dread Returning a Sphinx if you run Flame-Kin or Sadistic Hypnotist usually wins on the spot. Even if you dont run Flame-Kin or Sadistic, a Sphinx would win next turn as well, so why run the risk of Swords or them going off on their turn?

Whippoorwill
08-02-2011, 05:24 PM
On the other hand, Ive never been a big fan of the Nether Shadows. What do you guys think about cutting the Nether Shadows and running 3 Phantasmagorian, 4 Bloodghast, 3 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Dryad Arbor and 4 Edge of Autumns? It looks like that configuration would have similiar speed of a Bauble list and have decent recursion abilities, although it might be somewhat inconstant.

I'd rather have the Nether Shadows. They're easy to recur and can be fed to Ichorid if needed.

Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn seem bad for 2 of the main reasons you listed against Serum Powder and Call to the Netherworld: They don't do anything when they're not in your hand. And with Dredge you likely aren't going to be drawing cards after turn 1.



Edit:
Dread Returning a Sphinx if you run Flame-Kin or Sadistic Hypnotist usually wins on the spot. Even if you dont run Flame-Kin or Sadistic, a Sphinx would win next turn as well, so why run the risk of Swords or them going off on their turn?

Quite a few lists aren't running Flame-Kin and even then you can't always count on dredging it with Sphinx since its a 1-of. Not every deck plays StP either. I'm just suggesting it as an option, not as a definitive card.

Honestly, if you want the 'win now' combo, just put in the Mimeoplasm-Murderous Redcap-Lord of Extinction combo. I have it in the side, but will likely move it to main. As a bonus, all 3 cards are Ichorid food should any of the 3 be removed.

That_RaginG_Homo
08-02-2011, 07:38 PM
Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn seem bad for 2 of the main reasons you listed against Serum Powder and Call to the Netherworld: They don't do anything when they're not in your hand. And with Dredge you likely aren't going to be drawing cards after turn 1.

The difference, I think, is that Serum Powder's effect can be better achieved by running more dredgers and Call to the Netherworld just doesnt do enough. But Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn are similar to Chancellor of the Forge and Baubles/Gitixian Probe, both of which are still being considered, or were previously considered. And Dryad Arbor and Edge of Autumn offer some benefits over Chancellor/Baubles/Probe; Dryad Arbor generates zombies, while Edge is both uncounterable and instant (similar to Street Wraith, which is core).


Quite a few lists aren't running Flame-Kin and even then you can't always count on dredging it with Sphinx since its a 1-of. Not every deck plays StP either. I'm just suggesting it as an option, not as a definitive card.

What Im saying is that it takes the same slot as Sphinx, and but with the added drawback that you have to wait a turn for it to work. If either of their effects proc, you will most likely win, but with Sphinx, you get the Cabals now, instead of waiting til next turn, even if you arent running Flame-kin/Sadistic. It also lets you dig for other return targets like Iona without having to wait a turn, which is quite relevant against combo.


Honestly, if you want the 'win now' combo, just put in the Mimeoplasm-Murderous Redcap-Lord of Extinction combo. I have it in the side, but will likely move it to main. As a bonus, all 3 cards are Ichorid food should any of the 3 be removed.

Personally I am of the opinion that if you want a win now target at all, Sadistic Hypnotist is the way to go, since it still works if you only had 3 creatures and 1 bridge before casting Return, takes only 1 slot, and can be fed to Ichorid, but other people dont seem to agree with me on that one xD

Kinderschreck
08-02-2011, 08:09 PM
Has anyone a list that is "updated" and for use now, since Mental Misstep is on the run?
Cabal won't work as good as before and for discard you need something else then...

Besides, are there really any options to play against grave hate? I haven't seen a solution yet.

Izor
08-02-2011, 09:30 PM
Has anyone a list that is "updated" and for use now, since Mental Misstep is on the run?
Cabal won't work as good as before and for discard you need something else then...

Besides, are there really any options to play against grave hate? I haven't seen a solution yet.

In fact, this thread was just started a week or so ago, because this is a new and different approach to the dredge archetype than the usual one. Also, Mental Misstep could be considered the one main reason why one would ever want to play this version of Dredge over the usual one. This version just rips most Misstep decks apart.

As of hate, this is one of the disadvantages this manaless version has: It just doesn't have the mana to cast anti hate.

Kinderschreck
08-03-2011, 02:55 AM
As of hate, this is one of the disadvantages this manaless version has: It just doesn't have the mana to cast anti hate.

No offens, but doesn't it then lose after each sideboarding? Everybody has gravehate in side boards....
At least I never seen any decks without it.

264505
08-03-2011, 03:06 AM
No offens, but doesn't it then lose after each sideboarding? Everybody has gravehate in side boards....
At least I never seen any decks without it.

The deck is able to grind out wins in the long game. The only hate card that actually does anything is LotV. Rausch, who won a SCG Open with the deck, had his graveyard exiled 3 time in a game and still won.

smoky squirrel
08-04-2011, 12:43 PM
...
"Final" list

MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Streeth Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
SB
4 Nether Shadow
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
3 Gigapede

I like this non-diluted deck. But how would you sideboard? Cutting 1-ofs? Or just taking a few cantrips out and part of the dread return package?

Michael Keller
08-04-2011, 01:21 PM
I like this non-diluted deck. But how would you sideboard? Cutting 1-ofs? Or just taking a few cantrips out and part of the dread return package?

I really don't think the 'Bauble' route is the way to go here. When you look at several builds people are using, by cutting the Bloodghasts, Nether Shadows, and Dakmor Salvages, you're taking out a huge chunk of aggressiveness and replacing it with a faster, riskier variation that seems to be more reliant than the previous incarnations on its opening seven as you'll obviously never want to purposely draw a card through the draw step outside of being on the forced draw turn one.

The list you've quoted includes twenty cards that are not creatures, with an extra Flame-Kin Zealot added in the mix. That just doesn't seem correct when you consider Zealot's most effective situation in this deck is when you have Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts that get pumped up with Haste and allow you to put a significant amount of pressure on an opponent. The Baubles, in my opinion, dilute this variation of Dredge a bit more as it is more focused on its threat-density and grinding out victories using the attack step.

By trading a more threat-dense creature base for Baubles, you're lessening the effectiveness of your Dredges by potentially 'milling' cards like Probe and Baubles which are completely useless. Dredging cards like Nether Shadow, Gigapede, and Bloodghast opens the deck up with a different angle of attack and doesn't force you to take more aggressive mulligans or fear a well-timed Mental Misstep on Probe which could be disastrous. I think people are trying fill a void where a void never existed; Rausch's deck was perfectly suited to ravage Control-based strategies (Aggro Control and mid-range Combo), which continue to perform well (albeit struggling a tad). Look at how much Manaless Dredge has popped up on the Open Circuit since Rausch won; negligible.

The addition of Baubles also opens the deck up to Null Rod hate, which is seeing more play. This could also inherently force players to play first and take advantage of an early Null Rod or similar strategy. Baubles outside of the opening seven really become moot as by that time you're looking to fill your graveyard up and not worry about drawing cards through the draw step, so this could again dilute the deck's effectiveness outside of speed and consistency. We already have enough to worry about with graveyard hate, so opening ourselves up to that extra hate, however narrow, can still be a problem. We need to alleviate the pressure put on us after winning the first game, and although Baubles do allow us to slow-cantrip into Dredge, we still have to wait in order to attack. I really am not sold on the idea of dropping my pants during an opponent's upkeep and opening myself up to hate I cannot stop.

The Bauble lists work in theory, but I don't like taking the deck's primary source of recursion and pressure and shifting it to the sideboard when it should be the core of what the creator purposely tried. The sideboard obviously needs fixing, which is what I feel we should be focusing more on as it seems people are divided around several main-deck ideas and sticking to them. I don't think the lists are 'bad,' I just think they're a bit riskier and dilute consistency a bit more.

ajfirecracker
08-04-2011, 04:43 PM
I really don't think the 'Bauble' route is the way to go here. When you look at several builds people are using, by cutting the Bloodghasts, Nether Shadows, and Dakmor Salvages, you're taking out a huge chunk of aggressiveness and replacing it with a faster, riskier variation that seems to be more reliant than the previous incarnations on its opening seven as you'll obviously never want to purposely draw a card through the draw step outside of being on the forced draw turn one.

The list you've quoted includes twenty cards that are not creatures, with an extra Flame-Kin Zealot added in the mix. That just doesn't seem correct when you consider Zealot's most effective situation in this deck is when you have Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts that get pumped up with Haste and allow you to put a significant amount of pressure on an opponent. The Baubles, in my opinion, dilute this variation of Dredge a bit more as it is more focused on its threat-density and grinding out victories using the attack step.

By trading a more threat-dense creature base for Baubles, you're lessening the effectiveness of your Dredges by potentially 'milling' cards like Probe and Baubles which are completely useless. Dredging cards like Nether Shadow, Gigapede, and Bloodghast opens the deck up with a different angle of attack and doesn't force you to take more aggressive mulligans or fear a well-timed Mental Misstep on Probe which could be disastrous. I think people are trying fill a void where a void never existed; Rausch's deck was perfectly suited to ravage Control-based strategies (Aggro Control and mid-range Combo), which continue to perform well (albeit struggling a tad). Look at how much Manaless Dredge has popped up on the Open Circuit since Rausch won; negligible.

The addition of Baubles also opens the deck up to Null Rod hate, which is seeing more play. This could also inherently force players to play first and take advantage of an early Null Rod or similar strategy. Baubles outside of the opening seven really become moot as by that time you're looking to fill your graveyard up and not worry about drawing cards through the draw step, so this could again dilute the deck's effectiveness outside of speed and consistency. We already have enough to worry about with graveyard hate, so opening ourselves up to that extra hate, however narrow, can still be a problem. We need to alleviate the pressure put on us after winning the first game, and although Baubles do allow us to slow-cantrip into Dredge, we still have to wait in order to attack. I really am not sold on the idea of dropping my pants during an opponent's upkeep and opening myself up to hate I cannot stop.

The Bauble lists work in theory, but I don't like taking the deck's primary source of recursion and pressure and shifting it to the sideboard when it should be the core of what the creator purposely tried. The sideboard obviously needs fixing, which is what I feel we should be focusing more on as it seems people are divided around several main-deck ideas and sticking to them. I don't think the lists are 'bad,' I just think they're a bit riskier and dilute consistency a bit more.

I dislike the 2nd FKZ.

I think the Bauble list is actually more consistent because it gets to the plays that really matter faster and just as reliably. Namely, in my opinion: Ichorid + BfB, and Dred Return + Narcomoeba. I think FKZ + zombies is great and FKZ + Nether Shadow/Bloodghast is terrible. With multiple zombies, FKZ scales up in value, while producing creatures the hard way (with actual cards, rather than tokens) scales up FKZ much more slowly.

I haven't seen any Null Rod being played.

I don't give a fig how Rausch built his deck. We should build the best deck we can, test it thoroughly, and accept only results. Rausch's results are important from that angle, but they're far from final.

The deck's primary source of recursion is easily Ichorid. He has more power than Bloodghast, always has haste, dies on his own, and doesn't need to throw away cards to get him out (i.e. we can always Dredge our best card rather than a 'Dredge 2' Dakmor Salvage). When you're not using Sun Titan to put Bazaar of Baghdad into play, Ichorid is clearly the superior creature (especially given our high creature count).

Ichorid is the deck's primary source of pressure in some circumstances, but in many others Narcomoeba (especially in conjunction with Bridge) is the main beater. In my experience, Bloodghast is typically win-more, as he doesn't usually come out for me until I've already begun comboing for the kill, or I've already sewn up the game with Ichorid.

In any case, I think a useful idea at this point would be to start thinking about the different sideboard plans we might adopt and how many cards they fill, which ideally will point to a particular configuration or set of configurations as optimal.

Anti-Leyline of the Void:
4+ Slots MD
8+ Slots SB
Pros: High Synergy with Bloodghast, addresses the best hate card
Cons: Huge number of slots, probably requires Dryad Arbor package

Anti-Combo:
0+ Slots MD
4+ Slots SB
Pros: Flexible, high synergy with Baubles (if running LED), can potentially be relevant against other decks
Cons: Tends to be dependent on the opening hand,

Speed Change sideboard:
0 Slots MD (by definition)
10+ Slots SB
Pros: Tunes to be reasonable against faster decks (Combo, burn) and brutal against slower decks (Counter-based control)
Cons: Takes up a lot of sideboard slots without actually changing our strategy

Dread Return target sideboard:
0-2 Slots MD
1+ Slots SB
Pros: Very flexible, can fill out any sideboard nicely, can potentially be sculpted very well against the field, high synergy with maindeck draw creatures (to find sideboarded targets)
Cons: Requires us to assume an essentially winning position before getting value (resolving Dread Return), FKZ is just better than most creatures for us

Blightsteel Colossus:
1 Slot SB
Pros: Absurdly good in 1-2 matchups, only takes 1 slot
Cons: Essentially useless in most matchups.

Are there any packages that have been seriously discussed that I'm forgetting?

Michael Keller
08-04-2011, 08:18 PM
Dread Return target sideboard:
0-2 Slots MD
1+ Slots SB
Pros: Very flexible, can fill out any sideboard nicely, can potentially be sculpted very well against the field, high synergy with maindeck draw creatures (to find sideboarded targets)
Cons: Requires us to assume an essentially winning position before getting value (resolving Dread Return), FKZ is just better than most creatures for us

Blightsteel Colossus:
1 Slot SB
Pros: Absurdly good in 1-2 matchups, only takes 1 slot
Cons: Essentially useless in most matchups.

Are there any packages that have been seriously discussed that I'm forgetting?

How exactly do you plan on Dread Returning Blightsteel Colossus into play?

bakofried
08-04-2011, 08:33 PM
It's basically a free win vs. Painter if they don't have crypt. Mill by entire library except for one? Sure, kill you next turn.

It's value isn't as a Dread Return target though, which he may have presented it as.

ajfirecracker
08-05-2011, 01:55 AM
For possible sideboard packages, I forgot to mention:

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity

Michael Keller
08-05-2011, 11:38 AM
It's basically a free win vs. Painter if they don't have crypt. Mill by entire library except for one? Sure, kill you next turn.

It's value isn't as a Dread Return target though, which he may have presented it as.

I mean, I guess if that's what you're going for in that match-up. What I'm thinking here is that the sideboard has to be tailored to either circumvent grave-hate or adopt a strategy using additional lands and spells to actually destroy grave-hate.

I think Leyline of the Void is relatively good in the sideboard. However, I think by adding Serum Powder and Leyline of Sanctity you're forcing to deck to mulligan more aggressively. Supposing you had six cards in hand that were just insane - with a Powder - you now need to weight the risks of exiling a potentially really good start in order to open with a Leyline. If the deck had more access to lands I'd say this would be too much of an issue, but I'm not so sure on a Leyline suite in the board, although it is enticing.

ajfirecracker
08-05-2011, 01:22 PM
I mean, I guess if that's what you're going for in that match-up. What I'm thinking here is that the sideboard has to be tailored to either circumvent grave-hate or adopt a strategy using additional lands and spells to actually destroy grave-hate.

I think Leyline of the Void is relatively good in the sideboard. However, I think by adding Serum Powder and Leyline of Sanctity you're forcing to deck to mulligan more aggressively. Supposing you had six cards in hand that were just insane - with a Powder - you now need to weight the risks of exiling a potentially really good start in order to open with a Leyline. If the deck had more access to lands I'd say this would be too much of an issue, but I'm not so sure on a Leyline suite in the board, although it is enticing.

My post was mostly a joke...

But I wasn't advocating Leyline of the Void + Serum Powder... unless you also get Leyline of Singularity to blow up opposing Leyline.

Michael Keller
08-05-2011, 01:41 PM
My post was mostly a joke...

But I wasn't advocating Leyline of the Void + Serum Powder... unless you also get Leyline of Singularity to blow up opposing Leyline.

Okay, there is way too much sarcasm and or undetectable humor going on in this thread then (remember a few pages back). Either someone be serious or not at all - please.

Whatever feels right is obviously a judgment call; I run a set of 'Voids in my sideboard.

Grillo
08-05-2011, 02:57 PM
Super short report:
Yesterday I played a small tournament at a shop. Ten ppl showed up, we palyed 4 rounds.

Round 1: BANT Stoneblade.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven. Crap. On my second draw step I drew a Shambling Shell. Crap. At least I can start dredging. He has Hierarch, SFM and Jitte out. I still manage to win with Ichorid beats. Phantasmagorians are awesome. Not one Therapy resolved.
Game 2: Solid hand. I started slow dredging. I won with Ichorids even after being Crypted twice.
1-0


Round 2: High Tide combo.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven again. Crap. I think I drew one on my third draw step. He comboes and win.
Game 2: I knew I had forgotten something. It was a colossus in my sideboard. I draw a fine starting seven, but he comboes out turn 5.
1-1

Round 3: UW Stoneblade.
Game 1: I draw no dredgers in my initial seven yet again. On my second draw step I drew Imp. I barely won thanks to main deck Inkwell Leviathan.
Game 2: Very good hand. I beat him with Ichorids first and then with some tokens + Elesh Norn + Leviathan. I didn't see any hate.

He tried to attack me from different sides. Killing his dudes to remove my bridges, he even removed my Ichorids from the game. But it wasn't enough.
2-1

Round 4: UB Reanimator.
I think this is a very bad match up. I won on pure luck.
Game 1: I started with a dredger, two Wraiths and a Probe. He begun droping a land. I drew and discarded Troll. He drew and passed. EOD I double Wraith. I dredge in my draw step. Then Probe. I begin throwing Therapies at him and discarding his whole hand except for a Blazing Archon. :D
Game 2: I board in Leylines of the Void. I don't see them in my starting seven. He begins with land go. I draw and discard a dredger. He plays land and Relic removing my dredger. I draw Wraith and discard dredger. He tries to remove it with with Relic but I cycle Wraith in response removing something irrelevant. He then Duresses me removing Bridge and plays Bojuka Bog. I loose.
Game 3: I start with two Leylines in play. He confesses he doesn't have an answer to that. We still play the game and win it with him playing just a few cantrips and a Relic.
3-1

I win the tourney! I got a foil Flooded Strand for my troubles.

This deck is really powerful in the right meta. Without much combo and Leylines this is the time to try this deck.

Please don't laugh at my sideboard. It's basically whatever I found in my binder :(
This is my list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Gigapede
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Trygon Predator
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Sadistic Hypnotist

KevinTrudeau
08-05-2011, 03:17 PM
Okay, there is way too much sarcasm and or undetectable humor going on in this thread then (remember a few pages back). Either someone be serious or not at all - please.

Whatever feels right is obviously a judgment call; I run a set of 'Voids in my sideboard.

Running a proactive card like Leyline of the Void just doesn't seem good; we should be the ones controlling the flow of the game, thereby forcing the opponent to react by either combating us or overpowering us. We shouldn't really be reacting to the opponent's deck (aside from forms of hate), especially with unsynergistic cards like Leyline of the Void. The only deck it will assuredly harm is the mirror. For example, Reanimator will thank you for the extra turn and just cast Show and Tell or bounce it with Echoing Truth. I suppose if Dredge is running amok where you live it could be good, but in a general sense, it'll likely do more harm than good to you.


I knew I had forgotten something. It was a colossus in my sideboard.

Colossus doesn't really do much against Solidarity, because they'll just Blue Sun's Zenith you out. It'll only help if they quasi-fizzle, for instance, if you pressured them enough with a combination of Ichorids and Cabal Therapies and forced them to combo before they could reliably mill you and Stroke you. Colossus is pretty much strictly for the Painter matchup, and should probably only be run if that's a popular deck in your area or you're going to a bigger tournament and expecting more of a general metagame, like an Open.

Michael Keller
08-07-2011, 04:42 PM
Running a proactive card like Leyline of the Void just doesn't seem good; we should be the ones controlling the flow of the game, thereby forcing the opponent to react by either combating us or overpowering us. We shouldn't really be reacting to the opponent's deck (aside from forms of hate), especially with unsynergistic cards like Leyline of the Void. The only deck it will assuredly harm is the mirror. For example, Reanimator will thank you for the extra turn and just cast Show and Tell or bounce it with Echoing Truth. I suppose if Dredge is running amok where you live it could be good, but in a general sense, it'll likely do more harm than good to you.

So if Leyline of the Void is, as you see, more of a liability than anything, what could possibly be more utilitarian when the only focus should be on Dread Return targets or free-of-cost spells (as we run little to no mana anyway)? How is Dredge being 'proactive' a bad thing when that is the very core of the deck's existence? I think you contradicted yourself here:


Running a proactive card like Leyline of the Void just doesn't seem good...

and here:


We shouldn't really be reacting to the opponent's deck (aside from forms of hate), especially with unsynergistic cards like Leyline of the Void.

So, if we're not supposed to be running a proactive card like Leyline, but not supposed to be reacting to an opponent's deck, what...exactly...are we supposed to be doing here (lol)? The deck is already explosive as it is; running some free graveyard hate - basically the 'hammer and sickle' of all free graveyard hate - doesn't to me sound like an error. The sideboard slots that are already dedicated to Manaless Dredge are basically predicated on free spells and D.R. targets, and this card seems like decent filler for a variety of archetypes.

It's a win-condition on its own.

ajfirecracker
08-07-2011, 11:51 PM
So if Leyline of the Void is, as you see, more of a liability than anything, what could possibly be more utilitarian when the only focus should be on Dread Return targets or free-of-cost spells (as we run little to no mana anyway)? How is Dredge being 'proactive' a bad thing when that is the very core of the deck's existence? I think you contradicted yourself here:



and here:



So, if we're not supposed to be running a proactive card like Leyline, but not supposed to be reacting to an opponent's deck, what...exactly...are we supposed to be doing here (lol)? The deck is already explosive as it is; running some free graveyard hate - basically the 'hammer and sickle' of all free graveyard hate - doesn't to me sound like an error. The sideboard slots that are already dedicated to Manaless Dredge are basically predicated on free spells and D.R. targets, and this card seems like decent filler for a variety of archetypes.

It's a win-condition on its own.

As Leyline of the Void is a reactive card, I would be willing to bet that that's what Kevin was trying to say, and mixed up his words. If that's the case, then I agree with him. I think Leyline of the Void merely tolerable against a lot of the relevant decks and only great if a lot of opponents are also running manaless dredge (with no answers).

However, it is not a win condition unless our opponent is just cold to it (i.e. is on Manaless Dredge themself)

Michael Keller
08-07-2011, 11:53 PM
As Leyline of the Void is a reactive card, I would be willing to bet that that's what Kevin was trying to say, and mixed up his words. If that's the case, then I agree with him. I think Leyline of the Void merely tolerable against a lot of the relevant decks and only great if a lot of opponents are also running manaless dredge (with no answers).

Then what else could we possibly run in a deck predicated on running (at most) three or four lands in its sideboard?

ajfirecracker
08-07-2011, 11:56 PM
Then what else could we possibly run in a deck predicated on running (at most) three or four lands in its sideboard?

Chancellor of the Annex
Lion's Eye Diamond
Leyline of Sanctity
Dread Return targets
Unmask
Mindbreak Trap
Maze of Ith
Wasteland
The Baubles / Blooghast package (to swap out)
An anti-Leyline of the Void package
Mental Misstep
etc.

Didn't I have a huge list of possible sideboard configurations a page or two back?

Brainstorming:
Blightsteel Colossus/Progenitus
Lion's Eye Diamond + Arrogant Wurm + Reckless Wurm
Memite + Dryad Arbor + Chancellor of the Forge + Basking Rootwalla
Sharuum the Hegemon + Phyexian Metamorph
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Glacial Chasm
Leyline of Anticipation (to flash in Baubles and Dread Returns and Therapies)
Pact of Negation / Slaughter Pact / Pact of the Titan
Demon of Death's Gate / Delraich
Krovikan Horror / Squee, Goblin Nabob (to get you up to 8+ cards as an alternative discard outlet)
Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
Raven's Crime (with Dakmor Salvage, of course)
Golgari Brownscale / Razia, Boros Archangel
Sky Hussar (with Narcomoebas, of course)
Riftstone Portal + Ancient Grudge
Soul Spike / Sickening Shoal / Gut Shot / Spinning Darkness / Vengeful Pharoah / Contagion
Vampire Hexmage + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Dark Depths + Barren Moor (with Dakmor Salvage in the Main) -- I actually really like this plan (especially against Leyline of the Void), if you're already running 16 cantrips in the main deck. If there's a combo kill that's less mana or deck-space intensive, I'd be happy to hear it.
Obstinate Baloth / Dodecapod / Metrognome / Wilt-Leaf Liege / Sand Golem / Pure Intentions / Mangara's Blessing (this would be a big swap for all the Duress targets, ideally, so that they're forced to take one of these, mainly Metrognome or the returns-to-hand ones, and give you free guys/discards)
Tortured Existence (with Dakmor Salvage and Street Wraith, obviously)

I'm sure there are countless more sideboard possibilities, many of which are worth considering.

Edit: After some testing, it does appear that the HexDepths transformation plan is just the stone cold nuts.

Hopo
08-08-2011, 04:01 AM
For possible sideboard packages, I forgot to mention:

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Singularity

What would you address with Leyline of Singularity? I'm asking, since it single-handedly makes you lose, unless you think you can win by a single Thug beating or something like that.

iPhael
08-08-2011, 04:04 AM
Here's a janky 'combo' to consider:
Mimeoplasm + Giant Solifuge + Lord of Extinction

Courteous of the Cephalid Breakfast Thread.


DR a Mime which targets Solifuge for Haste Trample and Shroud, then targets LoE for a metric f*ton of +1/+1 counters.

Izor
08-08-2011, 09:20 AM
What would you address with Leyline of Singularity? I'm asking, since it single-handedly makes you lose, unless you think you can win by a single Thug beating or something like that.

You board in both Leylines as a 4-of and hope to have both in your opener. You bring both into play and your opponent's Leyline of the Void and your own LL of the Void die because of the Legend rule.

Serum Powder makes you find both.

The whole thing was more of a joke though, so anyway.


Something in general:

Guys, I can only repeat one thing. Sideboard techs are cool and such but you should really think if something is worth running. I give you an extreme example: Ypu can't expect to beat Leylines with 2 Forests and 4 Nature's Claim in your sb, I guess that's clear. If your mathematical chance is just too low, your tech won't work, especially for a deck that pretty much has to keep its opening 7. Rausch is with me (or rather I'm with him) on this matter, as he also didn't include any fancy stuff against Leyline. He said F*** Leyline, if my opponent has it, I lose. You'd better maximized your sb slots that help you out in other scenarios, like utility DR targets for example. There is just no way you can make a sideboard consisting of 11 Forests plus Reverent Silence work. Not in a deck that will need at least 2 full turns to recover from its own sb tech.

Gocho
08-08-2011, 09:50 AM
The only way I can think to win vs Leyline is:
- concede G2 after the Leyline
- side in a transformational sb G3. But I can't think in a good one playing 0-3 lands maindeck.

Michael Keller
08-08-2011, 10:35 AM
Rausch is with me (or rather I'm with him) on this matter, as he also didn't include any fancy stuff against Leyline. He said F*** Leyline, if my opponent has it, I lose.

Even though this deck is an oddity and unique in its approach, one of the major contributing factors guiding Rausch to victory was an abhorrent lack of relegated graveyard removal. I understand there were several times he was 'Crypted and came back and won, which is fine, but it still doesn't change the fact the deck is susceptible to a variety of different hate cards (even a Duress is a virtual 'Time Walk' against this deck).

There is no excuse to simply forfeit to an open-handed Leyline; it's a ridiculous line of play. If someone is so sold on the first sixty being sufficient enough to win a match - which is part of the reason you would give up to a Leyline anyway - then you might as well dedicate some sideboard slots to at least circumvent the threat of it. Dredge is still functionally Dredge, so there is no reason to simply 'back off' and walk away from a big game when a lot is on the line, no matter what an opponent is playing.

It is your responsibility as a player to do whatever it takes within your legal means to win a game. To simply acknowledge the existence of a card and 'bow down before it' shows a lack of willingness to further the development of the archetype as a whole and relegate it to being a 'one-trick pony.' It basically stalls the optimization of the deck and what can be done to enhance it from a defensive perspective. The deck shows no fear, which is a large part of its appeal, but that still doesn't mean things can't be done to make it better...

...which is where Rausch's line of thought fails.

Also, you all know you can just transform the deck into 'traditional' Dredge post-board, right? Add Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Chain of Vapor, more discard outlets, etc. It might sound ludicrous as it defeats the theme of the primary basis for which the deck exists, but it is worth taking a look at. Paradise also has synergy (obviously) with Bloodghast.

Izor
08-08-2011, 11:05 AM
Even though this deck is an oddity and unique in its approach, one of the major contributing factors guiding Rausch to victory was an abhorrent lack of relegated graveyard removal. I understand there were several times he was 'Crypted and came back and won, which is fine, but it still doesn't change the fact the deck is susceptible to a variety of different hate cards (even a Duress is a virtual 'Time Walk' against this deck).

There is no excuse to simply forfeit to an open-handed Leyline; it's a ridiculous line of play. If someone is so sold on the first sixty being sufficient enough to win a match - which is part of the reason you would give up to a Leyline anyway - then you might as well dedicate some sideboard slots to at least circumvent the threat of it. Dredge is still functionally Dredge, so there is no reason to simply 'back off' and walk away from a big game when a lot is on the line, no matter what an opponent is playing.

It is your responsibility as a player to do whatever it takes within your legal means to win a game. To simply acknowledge the existence of a card and 'bow down before it' shows a lack of willingness to further the development of the archetype as a whole and relegate it to being a 'one-trick pony.' It basically stalls the optimization of the deck and what can be done to enhance it from a defensive perspective. The deck shows no fear, which is a large part of its appeal, but that still doesn't mean things can't be done to make it better...

...which is where Rausch's line of thought fails.

Rausch's line of thought was brilliant. He created a half-new kind of deck, knowing that it loses against a card that you'll never see at the top tables but that auto-wins against the current metagame's staples like nothing. That is not a lack of responsibility as a player. He only recognized what the metgame was like and crushed everything with his anti-meta deck. If you want to keep on claiming that people who won the SCG Open after 12 rounds and top8 with a pure metagame deck fail at knowing what to play in that certain metagame, I can't help you.

A fact is: You simply can not make a sb tech against Leyline work. 11 Forests plus 4 Dryads main plus 4 Reverent Silence is only one example of what I've tested. I played approx. 30 post board games with the deck and lost 23, and 5 times my opponent didn't find his leyline. That makes 1 out of 15 games you'll win with your tech.

After that I played some more games: I took out a forest and a Silence and only drew 5 cards. My opp took out a leyline and only drew 6 cards, so we had the scenario that everyone has what he wants to have in his opener. We factored in mulligans, but we always kept those cards. Out of 12 games, I was able to win exactly 1. Now tell me what 'a responsible player who knows the metagame and his deck' would conclude? He would conclude that there is no reliable way to fight the card and that it isn't worth packing anything against it in the board. He would conclude that he could only play the deck in a LotV-less metagame and that he would better play a different deck if the meta is full of LotVs (or Relics, or Wheels oS&M and stuff).


Also, you all know you can just transform the deck into 'traditional' Dredge post-board, right? Add Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Chain of Vapor, more discard outlets, etc. It might sound ludicrous as it defeats the theme of the primary basis for which the deck exists, but it is worth taking a look at. Paradise also has synergy (obviously) with Bloodghast.

No, you simply can't. You play 0 lands main, which makes already 14-15 lands you'd have to have in your side in order to keep up with mana builds, so your plan already fails there. If you play say 11 lands and add 4 Chain of Vapor/Nature's claim, you're just at the same point as with the 11 Forests plus 4 Reverent Silence. Doesn't work, plus this plan is even worse than Forests plus Silence because it doesn't dodge Daze and Misstep. More discad outlets, which you mentioned, as well as the usual draw spells of a traditional build will never find room in the sb as well. Unles you play with a 27 card sideboard, which would after my calculations be the number you need in oder to fully transform your list (15 Lands, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Chain/Claim), and I haven't even factored in Careful Study and Breakthrough.

Michael Keller
08-08-2011, 12:03 PM
Rausch's line of thought was brilliant. He created a half-new kind of deck, knowing that it loses against a card that you'll never see at the top tables but that auto-wins against the current metagame's staples like nothing. That is not a lack of responsibility as a player. He only recognized what the metgame was like and crushed everything with his anti-meta deck. If you want to keep on claiming that people who won the SCG Open after 12 rounds and top8 with a pure metagame deck fail at knowing what to play in that certain metagame, I can't help you.

Brilliant is a little bit of a stretch. It's obvious you're a direct advocate of his play, which is noticeable in your writing. The fact is, he capitalized on an unprepared meta using a deck with an inherently high risk factor knowing full well that incarnation of the Dredge variant had not seen widespread competitive play in the Legacy format. Just because someone runs the gauntlet at an Open doesn't mean they are without fault in their deck design. Even Rausch himself said he basically tossed together a sideboard (which was terrible, by the way; he spoke on camera how he only necessitated filler by using Dread Return targets) and rode the first sixty. That's called deck design with an inherently high risk factor and a sideboard strategy with more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese.

Your opinion of brilliant and mine are obviously different.

Don't try to justify something based on a single great performance; fact is no one had ever heard of this guy before he placed and the deck hasn't performed well at either of the last two Opens since. I called his train of thought that was pertinent to the evolution of the sideboard a failure; don't confuse or mix up my argument, please.


A fact is: You simply can not make a sb tech against Leyline work. 11 Forests plus 4 Dryads main plus 4 Reverent Silence is only one example of what I've tested. I played approx. 30 post board games with the deck and lost 23, and 5 times my opponent didn't find his leyline. That makes 1 out of 15 games you'll win with your tech.

Where in my argument do I ever advocate the use of a fifteen card sideboard littered with Forests and Enchantment removal? And to what extent was your testing verifiable against legitimate, competent decks? You haven't either addressed the decks you've played against, the competency of your opponents, and the value to which the aggression of the opponent's mulligan strategy affects their necessity to open with a Leyline.

You've basically dumped a poor basis for why I shouldn't relegate slots in my sideboard to defeat Leyline-based strategies - or simply graveyard removal strategies at all.


After that I played some more games: I took out a forest and a Silence and only drew 5 cards. My opp took out a leyline and only drew 6 cards, so we had the scenario that everyone has what he wants to have in his opener. We factored in mulligans, but we always kept those cards. Out of 12 games, I was able to win exactly 1. Now tell me what 'a responsible player who knows the metagame and his deck' would conclude? He would conclude that there is no reliable way to fight the card and that it isn't worth packing anything against it in the board. He would conclude that he could only play the deck in a LotV-less metagame and that he would better play a different deck if the meta is full of LotVs (or Relics, or Wheels oS&M and stuff).

A competent, reliable player wouldn't embarrass himself on camera or his peers by scooping his cards up when an opponent necessitates a piece of hate towards it. A 'responsible' player will come prepared to a large meta knowing full well what to expect. If an independent meta is dominated by graveyard-based strategies, what makes you think that your generalization of a larger meta immediately disqualifies a smaller one to relegate hate for it? Are you advocating dropping the deck and using it as an 'element of surprise?' That takes the challenge out of the deck-building process and frankly your results are rather inconclusive based on a number of variables you haven't described.

Manaless Dredge's match-up analysis is more 'cut and dry' than most other decks seeing play due in large part to its lack of interaction with an opponent. We need to know what deck(s) you were playing against to better understand your reasoning behind bailing out on a defensive strategy post-board.



No, you simply can't. You play 0 lands main, which makes already 14-15 lands you'd have to have in your side in order to keep up with mana builds, so your plan already fails there. If you play say 11 lands and add 4 Chain of Vapor/Nature's claim, you're just at the same point as with the 11 Forests plus 4 Reverent Silence. Doesn't work, plus this plan is even worse than Forests plus Silence because it doesn't dodge Daze and Misstep. More discad outlets, which you mentioned, as well as the usual draw spells of a traditional build will never find room in the sb as well. Unles you play with a 27 card sideboard, which would after my calculations be the number you need in oder to fully transform your list (15 Lands, 8 discard Dorks, 4 Chain/Claim), and I haven't even factored in Careful Study and Breakthrough.

Yes, you can. First off, you are completely forgetting that any board-based strategy using a transformational sideboard specifically geared towards a targeted archetype that could potentially support Leyline of the Void (or any other problematic strategy towards you) also grants you the opportunity to open up slots in the first sixty to circumvent your so-called 'Fifteen Land Strategy.' What you're failing to understand is that through your biased testing, you've basically defeated your own analysis by stating you've won games - which is a victory in itself - against Leyline based strategies which you would rather scoop to. Of course, there are countless configurations you could use in this instance, but yours seems to be based solely on the consensus of a poorer strategy using Forests (Dryad Arbors) and 'Silences.

Also any player keeping Dazes in against this deck is making a very serious boarding error; to what extent does an opponent really need a Daze when the deck is completely non-interactive game one? Just because the deck is 'manaless' doesn't mean a deck packing conditional counter-magic is going to ravage it leading up to a Dread Return. This deck doesn't even care, and what makes it more entertaining is that any deck packing Daze and Leyline are going to be set back to a ridiculous extend in an attempt to mulligan aggressively for the Leyline, inherently warping - and potentially weakening - the deck's opening hand and making Daze that much worse. Cabal Therapy already does the dirty work, and even if an opponent Missteps it, that's two life down and a few Zombie tokens for you.

It doesn't care, nor should we.

No offense, but your calculations - which are practically nonexistent and seem 'buttered' - are hard to believe due to a series of heroic - however questionable - attempts to thwart a deployed strategy people are exploring using: no specific decks, mathematical probability or statistical analysis, and conclusion what you feel can be done to not necessarily (and effectively) defeat Leyline-based strategies, but rather 'give up' all together and call the deck a day.

A failure from my perspective.

ajfirecracker
08-08-2011, 12:11 PM
The only way I can think to win vs Leyline is:
- concede G2 after the Leyline
- side in a transformational sb G3. But I can't think in a good one playing 0-3 lands maindeck.

Speaking of transformation, this is performing pretty well for me:

Free Beaters:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid

Discard Outlets:
2 Phantasmagorian

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage

Graveyard Effects:
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below Draw Effects:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble

Dread Return Targets:
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie

Sideboard:
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Barren Moor

The transformational plan is: -4 Narcomoeba, -4 Bridge from Below, -1 River Kelpie, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, -3 Golgari Grave-Troll, -2 Phantasmagorian, +1 Entire Sideboard

Regarding Rausch's deck construction: He had the perfect deck for that tournament, which is brilliant, but now people are packing more Leylines than ever before.

HokusSchmokus
08-08-2011, 12:11 PM
Oh come on Hollywood, you can't be serious.
Just so I can jump into that discussion: How would your transformational SB look like?

Michael Keller
08-08-2011, 12:22 PM
Oh come on Hollywood, you can't be serious.
Just so I can jump into that discussion: How would your transformational SB look like?

I'm just saying I am trying to open your guys' minds up to the opportunity of at least trying to find a correct configuration to help the deck stave off 'auto-losses' - not a euphemism - which should never be acceptable in competitive Magic. I haven't found it yet, but I'm working trying to find it.

I'll accept the fact the deck cannot have a sideboard configuration setup to help against Leyline or similar strategies until I've thoroughly tested it, which I'm still in the process of doing. Until then, I'm not going to give up without trying.

Izor
08-08-2011, 05:15 PM
I'm just saying I am trying to open your guys' minds up to the opportunity of at least trying to find a correct configuration to help the deck stave off 'auto-losses' - not a euphemism - which should never be acceptable in competitive Magic. I haven't found it yet, but I'm working trying to find it.

I'll accept the fact the deck cannot have a sideboard configuration setup to help against Leyline or similar strategies until I've thoroughly tested it, which I'm still in the process of doing. Until then, I'm not going to give up without trying.

Okay, I think my previous post might have been a bit too hateful (probably your previous one as well), so I just want to calmly tackle the argumentation again.

It's probably to do with the sole fact that tones can't be transmitted perfectly in forums or whatever but in fact I think that we're in the same boat here.

First of all, I've been playing mana Dredge for years and even since I've heard of the manaless variant I've always been a strict advocate for the mana build. That being said, I'm not an extreme fanatic or something like that of Rausch's list (as it seems you supposed). Gigapede for example is a card that I find completely useless in manaless builds and his sb is far from optimal. Maybe I spoke a bit too positively about it, because I thought you had spoken too negatively about his deck.

What I have been doing however, despite knowing that mana Dredge is the way to go for me, is testing the manaless build a lot in order to find out where it fares better and worse than the traditional one. My main testing object was boarding plans against hate, for its inability to beat hate is actually the huge argument against manaless in my eyes.

The testing I referred to was against Team America, GBW Rock and UBG Dark Thresh, all of which had the 4 LotV in their sbs. The decks are definitely competitive and the players I tested with knew what they were doing. I don't claim that they're pros, but they know what they were doing.


So as I said we're actally on the same side. I only wanted to test the manaless build, especially the anti hate strategies, just like you. Only that I have finished it for now, coming to the conclusion that there is no viable strategy, while you're still at it. Also I'm not an advocate of Rausch's build, but at the same time I accredit his success. Just as much as I'm not an advocate of the manaless build in general, but I accredit its viability in the current metagame. And I only share expieriences, just like any other poster in this thread. Ajfirecracker just suggested a transformational board with the dark depths combo, I suggest not doing anything about it. Everyone does what he wants and just shares opinions. It's not like anyone came up with 7 Islands plus Vizzerdrix in the board. And that's fine in my eyes. I hope in yours too.

cwt1220
08-09-2011, 01:19 AM
The only way I can think to win vs Leyline is:
- concede G2 after the Leyline
- side in a transformational sb G3. But I can't think in a good one playing 0-3 lands maindeck.

I am playing this deck in Vestal this weekend and am going to try that plan with the following SB;
4x Fetches
4x Dryad Arbor
4x Reverent Silence
3x Contagion

Hopefully, with this plan I can avoid the auto-losses in: Jailer, Peacekeeper, Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Planar Void.

-Chris-

Grillo
08-09-2011, 02:41 PM
Don't forget to tell us how you do with the deck in Vestal!
We really need more real life data.

NoFuture
08-09-2011, 05:38 PM
Hi, I'm tryng the Edge of Autumn engine to have 12 cycle effect, the dryad arbor are good too for sideboard plans against leyline and grave sweepers. This is my list:

// Lands
4 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths

// Spells
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn

I didn't have a sideboard because I'm not sure about the numbers, I'm still testing for the best maindeck lineup. I think that dread returns should be 3 because 4 are useful most of the times with only 2 reanimation target. Probably i will make the cut for a phantasmagorian and the 4th shambling shell but I don't know what to take out.

Kanti
08-10-2011, 05:37 AM
To those who play FKZ, why not just play a Chancellor? Doesn't he do the same thing? Rather than give +1/+1 he just puts in Goblin tokens, which can be sacced to Therapy. He also doesn't suck if he is in your opener.

The sideboard looks like its the most important part of this deck. Some weird ideas to combat Crypt/Relic heavy meta would be to play the x4 Green Chancellor/ESG, x4 Dryad Arbor or ESG, x4 Pithing Needle, x3 Natures Claim.
With this build you can also play Root Maze, Oxidize, Simplify, Carpet of Flowers, Drop of Honey, Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Guerrillas (seems good actually vs grave hate actually...), Hidden Herd, Nimble Mongoose, and Xantid Swarm.
Yes half of these cards are unplayable but some (Root Maze) seem great.

A thing to note; Gitaxian Probe followed by a Cabal Therapy is crazy. Those might have to find a spot main deck.

My sb now is x4 White Chancellor, x3 Red Chancellor, x4 Tormod's Crypt, x4 Mental Misstep

Mental Misstep is easily the worst of the bunch, as it sucks vs discard and doesn't stop a Crypt. I think Leyline of Sanctity would be strictly better, as it would stop Crypt and discard but fold to a Relic.

Kanti
08-10-2011, 05:38 AM
To those who play FKZ, why not just play a Chancellor? Doesn't he do the same thing? Rather than give +1/+1 he just puts in Goblin tokens, which can be sacced to Therapy. He also doesn't suck if he is in your opener.

The sideboard looks like its the most important part of this deck. Some weird ideas to combat Crypt/Relic heavy meta would be to play the x4 Green Chancellor/ESG, x4 Dryad Arbor or ESG, x4 Pithing Needle, x3 Natures Claim.
With this build you can also play Root Maze, Oxidize, Simplify, Carpet of Flowers, Drop of Honey, Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Guerrillas (seems good actually vs grave hate actually...), Hidden Herd, Nimble Mongoose, and Xantid Swarm.
Yes half of these cards are unplayable but some (Root Maze) seem great.

A thing to note; Gitaxian Probe followed by a Cabal Therapy is crazy. Those might have to find a spot main deck.

My sb now is x4 White Chancellor, x3 Red Chancellor, x4 Tormod's Crypt, x4 Mental Misstep

Mental Misstep is easily the worst of the bunch, as it sucks vs discard and doesn't stop a Crypt. I think Leyline of Sanctity would be strictly better, as it would stop Crypt and discard but fold to a Relic.

Final Fortune
08-10-2011, 09:19 AM
As much as I like Chancellor of the Forge, it's just no where near as guaranteed a win when you Dread Return it compared to Flame Kin Zealot.

I really don't think SBing against Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus is a very good idea, you can play thru' both and opponent's have diversified their SBs to the point where they have 1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Trap, 1 Phyrecian Extirpate, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Bojuka Bog etc. and even in Mana Dredge you feel dumb as hell SBing in 4 Ancient Grudge just to get Bogged etc. I cut Ancient Grudge from my Mana Dredge awhile ago and just relied on Pimp/Tribe vs. some of the hate and did fine.

Just stop trying so hard to beat hate with hate, Dredge is a glass cannon and that's just the way it is.

ajfirecracker
08-10-2011, 11:10 AM
As much as I like Chancellor of the Forge, it's just no where near as guaranteed a win when you Dread Return it compared to Flame Kin Zealot.

I really don't think SBing against Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus is a very good idea, you can play thru' both and opponent's have diversified their SBs to the point where they have 1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Trap, 1 Phyrecian Extirpate, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Bojuka Bog etc. and even in Mana Dredge you feel dumb as hell SBing in 4 Ancient Grudge just to get Bogged etc. I cut Ancient Grudge from my Mana Dredge awhile ago and just relied on Pimp/Tribe vs. some of the hate and did fine.

Just stop trying so hard to beat hate with hate, Dredge is a glass cannon and that's just the way it is.

It's not a glass cannon, though. The reason to not play anti-hate is that you can potentially just beat it without sideboarding. Dredge is too resilient to bring in anti-hate, not too weak.

K1w1
08-10-2011, 02:36 PM
Hey guys,
i played the original deck from Nicholas Rausch at a tourney in Iserlohn (Germany) and i played against Scavenging Ooze 2 times. What would you do against this card except of Contagion? I cant mulligan because im too slow for dredge then.
This card should be banned :)

Thanks K1w1

Kanti
08-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Yeah I was omega stoned and it was late last night. Didn't realize Chancellor didn't give haste. Still is worth testing in a Manaless Ichorid that doesn't run Baubles or Probe.

Even in a list with Bloodghast/Dakmor package one should play Probe though. Probe+Cabal=omg.

And you guys didnt understand the reasoning behind my post, which is to ask what would a sideboard for this deck look like?

I really think Chancellor of the Annex is a good place to start, as you reveal it t1 and it shuts down an opponent.

Some gy hate of our own would be nice, to side in vs other Dredge.

Final Fortune
08-10-2011, 05:25 PM
It's a glass cannon in the sense that it can't deal with a resolved permanent that gives the opponent strategic superiority, i.e. Leyline of the Void or Propaganda etc. If people want to hate this deck out of the metagame, it has no choice but to accept defeat.

The point is tho' no one will.

Izor
08-10-2011, 06:03 PM
Hey guys,
i played the original deck from Nicholas Rausch at a tourney in Iserlohn (Germany) and i played against Scavenging Ooze 2 times. What would you do against this card except of Contagion? I cant mulligan because im too slow for dredge then.
This card should be banned :)

Thanks K1w1

I guess we add Scavenging Ooze to the list of cards that manaless just can't beat. Contagions is the only way I guess. At least Ooze is nowhere near as bad as Leyline. Though I'd really wish back my Firestorms if I'm paired against Ooze at a tourney.

ESG
08-10-2011, 11:10 PM
If people want to hate this deck out of the metagame, it has no choice but to accept defeat.

This is true for most decks. If enough people are gunning for a deck, they'll take you down, regardless of what you're playing. Decks that are heavily committed to one angle of attack are easier to hate out.

Going without land has the drawback of making you more vulnerable to certain types of hate. If those types of hate are in great enough number that you can't dodge them, then don't run this deck.

Manaless Dredge is at its best when the field is made up of "fair" decks -- preferably slow blue control decks or midrange aggro -- that are underboarding graveyard hate.

Kanti
08-11-2011, 02:04 AM
// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [5E] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [ON] Gigapede
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [IA] Urza's Bauble
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TSP] Dread Return
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
SB: 4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
SB: 4 [NPH] Chancellor of the Annex


So after some play testing I have made some changes to the deck. I don't think FKZ is needed in the maindeck, I never really saw myself wanting it too much. Figured I would also cut the Dakmor/Bloodghast package as it took up 7 slots in the main deck and move it over to the sideboard. It's only really good at fighting multiple Tormod's or beating blue decks that Misstep/Daze my cantrips, and since a large part of the meta is carrying these annoying cards it is worth the 7 sb slots in my opinion.

Chancellor of the Annex is pretty amazing. It stops t1 discard, and is a great side vs combo. Pretty much stops every form of hate but Leyline.

The x4 Dread package is for combo decks. You side DR/Elesh vs Dredge, DR/Iona vs storm, DR/Angel vs any weird card that you saw.

Those 4 card can very well become Chancellor of the Forge or Leyline of the Vault. Who knows.

Final Fortune
08-11-2011, 03:12 AM
It's a matter of degree, you can "hate" Merfolk by playing 4 Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast in your SB, but Merfolk still has a chance of countering spells, removing permanents etc. to win the game - it's win percentage simply decreases. Dredge isn't the same, vs. the appropriate, resolved hate card the deck simply scoops; there's no equivalent of what Leyline of the Void or Relic of Progenitus does to Dredge compared to what any other hate cards does to its respective deck save, maybe, counterspells vs Belcher.

The cost efficieny and effect of hate vs Dredge, compounded by the inability for Dredge to effectively deal with that hate is incomparable. That's why Dredge will always have massively high or incredibly low win percentages in like the 90%/10% win/loss category vs. decks without/with hate and Merfolk will have like a 50%/35% in comparison (the numbers are arbitrary).

That's why I have said, and continue to say the only way to increase Dredge's over all win percentage is to increase it's speed and beat combo more consistently. It's the only match up in the arche type pie it can actually fight against (and maybe Reanimator esq decks or Lands) with MD adjustments (LED, Baubles etc.) and SB bullets.

Kanti
08-11-2011, 04:14 AM
We pretty much all know this already. Yes, a resolved LotV spells death. That is why I even suggest playing it as a 4-of in our sidboard.

The decklist I posted is super freaky fast as well. 12 cantrips are more than enough. I really don't see a reason to play x16 cantrips when I can run the extra Phantasma and Gigapedes to play around hate. Running x3 Dread Returns has had no impact on me whatsoever since I now cantrip and rip my whole deck into my gy, and then use the 1 Dread I found to get a Sphinx and finish the game.

You could play a 4th Dread Return in the gy, Im testing that. Blightsteel Coloussus can also be good here, it's a one-of that can flat out win you games.

Final Fortune
08-11-2011, 08:18 AM
We pretty much all know this already. Yes, a resolved LotV spells death. That is why I even suggest playing it as a 4-of in our sidboard.

The decklist I posted is super freaky fast as well. 12 cantrips are more than enough. I really don't see a reason to play x16 cantrips when I can run the extra Phantasma and Gigapedes to play around hate. Running x3 Dread Returns has had no impact on me whatsoever since I now cantrip and rip my whole deck into my gy, and then use the 1 Dread I found to get a Sphinx and finish the game.

You could play a 4th Dread Return in the gy, Im testing that. Blightsteel Coloussus can also be good here, it's a one-of that can flat out win you games.

You want 16 cantrips before you want Gigapedge, I played with Gigapede long enough to know that it's the single, most mediocre card in the deck and I wouldn't sacrifice anything in the MD for it.

I agree you can slim the Dread Return package to 3 Dread Return, 2 Sphinx of Lost Truths and 1 Flame Kin Zealot, also 3 Shambling Shells and Nether Shadows are enough as well.

Kanti
08-11-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm not really sure about that. Here is where I get my numbers from.

Most Mana'd Dredge lists run 11-12 Dredgers, and mull just about every hand that doesn't include one. That tells me that in order to have a cantrip in my opening hand, which speeds up the deck by up to 1 turn, I have to run 11-12 of them.

I rarely want more than 1 cantrip in my opener, and especially not more than Gigapede. Draw, discard Gigapede, upkeep? Are they gonna Crypt the Gigapede? Gigapede really allows you to play around targetted gy hate by always having a discard outlet in your hand to dump into the gy.

Why even run Zealot? What does he accomplish? Has he won games for you that woudn't have been won casting multiple Therapies and a 15/15 Grave Troll with an army of friends? Most Dredge decks eschew him, and I think there is a very good reason for that.

K1w1
08-11-2011, 03:48 PM
Yes, FKZ won games for me. Multiple times! Without him, I'm lost, because my opponents are killing me 1 turn later, and i can kill him before.
Actually im playing this deck without Gigapede, because this card is bad, imo.
Insteed of 3 Gigapede i'm playing 3 Sphinx of lost truths. + FKZ + Iona. It works fine.
1 thing i could change is playing more cantrips. actually 4.

And golgari grave-troll - i never DR him.

Just my 2 cents. I'm at tourney tomorrow. I play this list with the changes i told.

ajfirecracker
08-11-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm not really sure about that. Here is where I get my numbers from.

Most Mana'd Dredge lists run 11-12 Dredgers, and mull just about every hand that doesn't include one. That tells me that in order to have a cantrip in my opening hand, which speeds up the deck by up to 1 turn, I have to run 11-12 of them.

I rarely want more than 1 cantrip in my opener, and especially not more than Gigapede. Draw, discard Gigapede, upkeep? Are they gonna Crypt the Gigapede? Gigapede really allows you to play around targetted gy hate by always having a discard outlet in your hand to dump into the gy.

Why even run Zealot? What does he accomplish? Has he won games for you that woudn't have been won casting multiple Therapies and a 15/15 Grave Troll with an army of friends? Most Dredge decks eschew him, and I think there is a very good reason for that.

They can Tormod's Crypt you in your upkeep after you discard to Gigapede but before you dredge. There's not any reason for them to do that, though, as they can wait on Tormod's Crypt until you get creature-making triggers and then wipe your graveyard.

They can lock you down with Relic of Progenitus' tap ability regardless of Gigapede, so it only really helps against sorcery-speed hate, which we naturally just slaughter anyway. The real reason to run Gigapede is that you want more than 4 Phantasmagorian in your deck (say, because you're on the 4 Nether Shadow 4 Bloodghast plan).

As to FKZ, I definitely think he's won me a huge number of games that Grave-Troll wouldn't have won, especially post-sideboard. The ones I know for sure are attributable to FKZ have 2 forms: 1) With manaless (i.e. only recently): They have a relevant card, like Moat, that I see with Gitaxian Probe (previously with the first Cabal Therapy) and in response to my Cabal Therapy (or the second Therapy in the old mana builds) they Brainstorm and hide it on top. 2) I have go to the very last card to get an anti-soft-hate card like Terastodon or Angel of Despair. If I don't attack that turn I lose despite having an answer for their lock.

There are also a large number of games where FKZ might have been important but I'll never know. Tendrils in particular excels at this, usually sideboarding up to a million Ad Nauseam (like 3) in order to just rip one of the top (or off a cantrip) and combo out on the spot.

Kanti
08-12-2011, 12:19 AM
What I meant by Gigapede is that he allows you to DDD over and over and over again, so if they do crack their Crypt/Relic they don't flat out kill you.

This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.

K1w1
08-12-2011, 12:56 AM
This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.

Thats wrong.
Discard a Phantasmagorian. Or a dredger and in response of tapping relic, you can cycle.

Final Fortune
08-12-2011, 02:55 AM
What I meant by Gigapede is that he allows you to DDD over and over and over again, so if they do crack their Crypt/Relic they don't flat out kill you.

This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.

Then SB it, that's not worth MDing and losing the speed of baubles.

Kanti
08-12-2011, 03:28 AM
I will test it but I definately think you are underestimating Gigapede. The guy makes sure Phantasma is always in the gy, which is huge to this deck. He stacks Nether Shadow. He's a body to go on top of Nether Shadow.

I run 12 cantrips already but I'm trying to beat blue. Baubles get Dazed and even Forced.

Final Fortune
08-12-2011, 05:03 AM
Dude, I've been testing with and without Gigapede for awhile, there's no over or underestimation going on it's just not as good as you wish it were every time you play it. Every Bauble Forced and Dazed is card and tempo advantage, plus a Therapy or Returns that isn't countered a turn later.

You don't cut Time Walk for Gigapede man.

DarkJester
08-12-2011, 06:33 AM
Hey folks, i played Ichorid for a long time in legacy, and your manaless build seem interesting to mee. yesterday i looked for the actual bazaar of baghdad prizes at mcm and looked in some vintage forums for manaless dredge builds. I found some interesting lists which play dryad arbor main as a four off with sideboard hate against lotv and stuff. Are the Legacy lists too tight right now that they can't addapt these tech? You may play Arbor main and leave Sb-slots for more important things... just a question.

Kanti
08-12-2011, 12:26 PM
It's not a Time Walk at all.

My opponent is on the play and drops an Island.

I draw and discard a dredger.

He untaps, drops a land, passes again

I draw my dredger, back up to 8 cards, and play a Bauble which gets Dazed. I am now at 7 cards and will be doing nothing for the remainder of the turn, and if I didn't hit another Dredger nothing my next turn either. In other words you have gained no tempo. At all.

And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.

mooN_MTG
08-12-2011, 01:16 PM
My biggest problem with Manaless Dredge is battle Tha Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, its game for my opponent

funyun45
08-12-2011, 02:03 PM
My biggest problem with Manaless Dredge is battle Tha Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, its game for my opponent

Not necessarily. Side in Angel of Despair, then dredge until you can bring in 3 ichords/nether shadows in one upkeep. Or, if you can manage to Therapy an ichorid/shadow/narcomoeba the turn it comes into play, and have enough Bridges in your yard, you can then sac the tokens you create to Return the Angel. Tabernacle is a beast play, but it's definitely not an autoloss for this deck.

K1w1
08-12-2011, 05:10 PM
And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.
Ofc.


My biggest problem with Manaless Dredge is battle Tha Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, its game for my opponent

Played today in Iserlohn germany and played against tabernacle. No problem...
Ichorid + Nether shadow + bloodghast = win
They are coming back every upkeep, except of bloodghast, but this isnt a problem.
Tokens arent needed. You can easily win this game with Sphinx of lost truths dredging to FKZ.

K1w1


EDIT:
Btw played vs this Ooze and i have to say, no problem AFTER turn 2-3.

Grillo
08-12-2011, 06:57 PM
And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.

You have a 70,59% chance to have either Phanta or Wraith in your "opening 8" against a 39,95% chance your opponent has to draw Relic in his opening 7.

At least probability favor us.

ajfirecracker
08-12-2011, 10:15 PM
You have a 70,59% chance to have either Phanta or Wraith in your "opening 8" against a 39,95% chance your opponent has to draw Relic in his opening 7.

At least probability favor us.

Actually, if you play Baubles or Gitaxian Probe those will also let you play through Relic's tap ability, making the odds in those lists more like 90%+.

Kanti
08-13-2011, 01:42 AM
Dude, playing Baubles and Probe does NOT let you play around Relic. Think about it for one second.

You are on the draw. They play a t1 relic. Bauble and Probe do nothing against that if you don't have Phantasma already.

So you discard and can't cast Bauble or Probe, and they activate Relic. Game over.

Bauble and Probe just speed up the deck by a lot. Probe has the extra benefit of making Cabal Therapy extra strong. Urzas Bauble kinda helps Therapy too.

Final Fortune
08-13-2011, 02:29 AM
It's not a Time Walk at all.

My opponent is on the play and drops an Island.

I draw and discard a dredger.

He untaps, drops a land, passes again

I draw my dredger, back up to 8 cards, and play a Bauble which gets Dazed. I am now at 7 cards and will be doing nothing for the remainder of the turn, and if I didn't hit another Dredger nothing my next turn either. In other words you have gained no tempo. At all.

And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.

You're misplaying this deck from what you've described, you don't just run Baubles into counter spells regardless of your grave yard - I play them on T3 and T4 more than on any other turn -

Kanti
08-13-2011, 04:13 AM
At t3 to t4 it still really isn't a time walk. It is nice CA if they cast Force, but its a 1 for 1 in every other case.

Yes though I still play baubles. Urza's Bauble freaking rocks. But they are not the most amazing part of this deck.

What are you guys playing in your sbs btw? Here is my updated one

x4 Leyline of the Void
x4 Bloodghast
x3 Dakmor Salvage
x1 Blightsteel Colussus
x2 Elesh Norn
x1 Angel of Despair

Final Fortune
08-13-2011, 05:43 AM
Other than Spell Pierce, which I haven't seen played since Mental Misstep, every card that counters a Bauble sets the opponent back a card or a land drop. I don't know how you are defining a Time Walk, but disregarding board position, Dredging more cards in a deck that's relegated to its draw step for Dredging is about as good as it gets. These cards are all pretty crucial to racing the middling Combo decks like Hive Mind, High Tide and Painter Stone, so I'd say they're really a lot more important than you seem to think especially when you compare them to Gigapede of all things.

This deck needs speed desperately in certain match ups, you can't rely on inevitability vs. strategic superiority - which a lot of decks have on us. I mean seriously, you wont even beat Elves consistently without draw.

ajfirecracker
08-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Dude, playing Baubles and Probe does NOT let you play around Relic. Think about it for one second.

You are on the draw. They play a t1 relic. Bauble and Probe do nothing against that if you don't have Phantasma already.

So you discard and can't cast Bauble or Probe, and they activate Relic. Game over.

Bauble and Probe just speed up the deck by a lot. Probe has the extra benefit of making Cabal Therapy extra strong. Urzas Bauble kinda helps Therapy too.

They play T1 Relic on the play. You discard a do-nothing card (in cleanup). They have to tap the Relic on their turn or on our second turn (because they don't get priority during cleanup). Second turn, you cycle Gitaxian Probe, then discard a dredger EOT. They can't use the tap ability to exile the dredger.

They play T1 Relic on the play. T1 you play a Bauble. T2 You discard a card. At the beginning of their T3, they go to tap the dredger out of existence and you respond by sacrificing the bauble and exiling it.

They play T1 Relic on the play. T1 you play and activate Bauble. You skip your discard for the turn (too few cards in hand). T2 you discard 2 cards, one of which is a dredger.

Izor
08-13-2011, 10:43 AM
-snip-

AJ just explained what I wanted to say as well.

So as an overview:

Gitaxian Probe, Baubles, Street Wraith do work pretty well, the two former only if they resolve of course.

Taz theoretically works as well, but the fact that he sets you back to 5 cards is a huge letdown if they decide to just sac the relic next turn.

cwt1220
08-14-2011, 12:47 PM
I played Nicholas Rausch's list (-1 Iona, +1 Sphinx of the Lost Truth) at Jupiter Games yesterday and went 5-2 for 11th. Didn't sideboard anything all day. I was 5-1 after 6 rounds, but had to play the final round because I was paired down. Lost to burn because I overextended into a relic of progenitus. The deck was real smooth and resilient through relic and crypt all day. Lost to Burn and Patterns combo, beat Merfolk, NO RUG, Team Italia, Sneak Attack, and Non-LED Dradge.

-Chris-

Kanti
08-15-2011, 12:40 AM
Explain this one again. Coudn't you only discard after drawing for the turn, discarding on your cleanup, then they can tap their Relic on their turn to remove the card? I'm not getting it.

Here yeah, Bauble is a badass.

This also works though they can sac the Relic to set you back a little.

Kanti
08-15-2011, 12:41 AM
Explain this one again. Coudn't you only discard after drawing for the turn, discarding on your cleanup, then they can tap their Relic on their turn to remove the card? I'm not getting it.

Here yeah, Bauble is a badass.

This also works though they can sac the Relic to set you back a little.

cwt1220
08-15-2011, 02:47 AM
I used phantasmagorian to dump six cards, including both dread return targets and 2 bridges, beacuse I thought I had a dread return in hand. Wasn't actually there, lol.

-Chris-

ajfirecracker
08-15-2011, 08:29 AM
Explain this one again. Coudn't you only discard after drawing for the turn, discarding on your cleanup, then they can tap their Relic on their turn to remove the card? I'm not getting it.

Here yeah, Bauble is a badass.

This also works though they can sac the Relic to set you back a little.

They can only tap Relic once every turn cycle, as it only untaps in their untap step. The thing is, whenever you discard cards EOT you're actually discarding during cleanup rather than in the end of turn step, so no one gets priority unless something triggers (like Megrim or Basking Rootwalla). This means that even though you're discarding before they untap, they can't exile your dredger/other card on this turn cycle. This means that they'll have to untap, then exile your card at some point, and if you can cycle a card (say, Gitaxian Probe) before your next discard, you'll have 2 cards in the graveyard (the Probe and that discard) after they exile for the turn cycle. Then they untap for the next turn cycle, tap Relic, and you exile your cycling card (again, this is Gitaxian Probe in this case) keeping the dredger safe, and forevermore blanking (well, close to blanking) Relic's tap ability.

All in all, Relic only sets you back by about a turn (especially if you exile a Bauble, as you even keep the draw effect from the Bauble in that case) plus the graveyard sweeper effect of setting you back by about 3 turns (ish). With Street Wraith, it doesn't really set you back much at all.

Absurd as this may sound, most of the decks that are doing well right now can't draw one fewer relevant card and beat us, even with about 4 extra turns.

Pulp_Fiction
08-18-2011, 02:26 AM
Alright, this may have been a total win but .... beer > magic. Pure and simple, tonight I went to my local cardshop and went 2-1 due to a single card. I won everything that I expected, won through hate, and only really lost to Leyline. I would have gone farther, 100%, but I would rather hang out w friends and drink beers than play 7+ hours of Magic against dumb fuckers playing Stoneforge and Merfolk BS in order to potentially win 25$ store credit. Here is what I played tonight followed by a short report:

4x Dread Return
3x Deep Analysis
4x Narcomoeba
4x Phantasmo
4x Nether Shadow
4x Grave Troll
4x Shambling Shell
4x Street Wraith
2x Sphinx of Lost Truths
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Flame Kin Zealot
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Gigapede

Sideboard

3x Angel of Despair
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre

Round 1 - 3c Stoneforger Bullshit
g1 - He gets turn 2 Stoneforge turn 4 Battle shit equipped w the pro black pro green sword .... he simply cant race 14+ zombie token on turn 5.
g2 - Opens w Leyline of the Void.
g3 - Opens w Leyline of the Void.

Round 2 - Burn
g1 - He kills me on turn 4 after bad dredges.
g2 - Open w White Leyline and outrace him after shitty dredges and 2+ recurring Ichorids.
g3 - 100% race, keep a decent hand w GGT and 6 others, dredge fairly well, and on turn 3 have 2 Spirits + 2 Ichorids and force him to kill his first Grim Lavamancer, then DR Sphinx forces him to Fireblast his other Lavamancer since I have 2 Bridges in the yard removed. Therapy misses but I am at 10 life and next turn bring back 9+ damage ... Therapy + recurring dudes > burn. When its working semi-well, there is no deck capable of out-racing dredge that isn't storm combo.

Round 3 - B/W Confidant
( I know I am going 2 the bars w my buddies so I give him the win 2-1.... but when we played here is what happened).
g1- Turn 1 GGT discard + Wraith cycle hits Phantasmo, I empty my hand keeping a Narcomoeba and recur 2x Ichorids, swap Gigapede w GGT and dredge into nothing. It doesn't matter. Ichorid hits Swords and then he just loses to raw aggro since I had a Bridge in my opening hand. The game is over by turn 4, the pure aggression of this deck is unmatched, especially against any deck which packs massive discard. He never once Hymned me ... cause it would no doubt help!
g2 - He opens w Crypt and I discard Troll. Turn 2 I dredge into Moeba + Bridge + Shadow and dont get hit. He eventually Crypts me on turn .... 3-4 with a Ratchet Bomb in play w 0 counters to kill zombies. I make jokes about never drawing LED and .. draw it w DA in hand and dredge 11 cards. He loses 2 turns later easily due to Ichorid, Shadow, and Moebas. His Crypt hit me early on ... but I Therapied him before going all in on LED. But, he is a cool guy and I like drinking more than 25$ of store credit. So I give him the win 2-1 and hit the bars w my buddies.

U know, this deck is unbelievably powerful. Especially in this time of morons playing Standstill bullshit. But really, there is a lot of potential. Black leyline + Yixlid Jailer = the end of game. Being a combo player I can accept this, because u are capable of accepting auto-losses and making other matchups more favorable. There is no BEST deck, its that simple. Non-LED Dredge would not produce these results. I would have lost all of these matchups due to Mental Misstep, since all 3 were packing them main and hit Therapy. U have to find a medium, and I think this list is ... just great compared to most. I am more than happy tp pack it into black Leyline ... only morons play it since Relic + Crypt is better.

Izor
08-18-2011, 06:17 AM
4x Dread Return
3x Deep Analysis
4x Narcomoeba
4x Phantasmo
4x Nether Shadow
4x Grave Troll
4x Shambling Shell
4x Street Wraith
2x Sphinx of Lost Truths
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Flame Kin Zealot
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Gigapede

Sideboard

3x Angel of Despair
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Faerie Macabre

This is a pretty standard list, except the LED plus Deep Analysis package. I wonder if you were satisfied with it? To me it seems that the usual way of just having 4 Sphinxes is enough to mill your whole deck once you've started your engine. And it's actually more reliable, because you don't need to have the LED in your opener. Also, it takes up 7 slots from your deck and exchanges graveyard-relevant cards for graveyard-useless cards.

Michael Keller
08-18-2011, 12:05 PM
I really feel as though the Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond package is more detrimental to the overall strategy of the deck. The only time you're capable of casting Deep Analysis from the graveyard is with a Lion's Eye Diamond in hand. Given the fact the deck should never purposefully draw more than one card a game, it doesn't seem useful to bank on drawing into it in your opening seven.

Now, Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond force you to be interactive with your opponent, which can be a problem. If L.E.D. gets countered or Deep Analysis gets Flashback-countered, there really is no help they can offer after turn one. Granted, you get a more explosive start by discarding your hand - which is good - but it also doesn't really do anything beyond what the Bauble plan, Probe, or Street Wraith can already do at a reasonable pace.

I am currently running a sideboard configuration that looks like this:

4 [VI] Emerald Charm
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [A] Forest

In testing, the power of Land Grant has been enormous. It basically replaces itself (which is huge because it doesn't put the land directly into play, and in a situation where you have eight cards in hand, you maintain eight cards if it resolves), which is key.

I have been testing the hell out of Emerald Charm over Nature's Claim, and a startling difference I've been seeing over the course of simulated Leyline-opened starts is that you don't want to offer your opponent any more life than they are entitled to. Reverent Silence grants them six already, which is, in essence, a pseudo-'Time Walk,' but it also takes care of multiple Leyline starts and doesn't require you to tap mana to be cast. Emerald Charm is devoid of giving your opponent any sort of bonus, which is good because Manaless builds don't have the luxury of giving time - or any advantage, for that matter - to an opponent to win the game.

This deck, as we all know, has little trouble getting around Crypt and Relic. Leyline has been the card I've solely been targeting in my testing and I've noticed that Emerald Charm, while prone to Misstep, is just as good as Nature's Claim in the general sense it doesn't grant your opponent the extra life. The deck needs to facilitate a kill as fast as possible, and this is basically the framework for which I have predicated my testing on. Simulating Leyline-opened starts is difficult because the mulligan factor is key in (potentially) weakening an opponent's start, so I've been testing multiple games at a set 7, 6, 5, etc. cards to see how the deck fares using this sideboard configuration.

The added bonus of Reverent Silence and Emerald Charm hammering down on Enchantress decks is also very good, as it remains one of the deck's worst match-ups. At this point, given the volume of Pulp's results, mine last week at a local event (losing three rounds straight to Leyline - without an opponent mulling once), and the general consensus of 'scooping' it up, I have been very happy with this configuration. Land Grant has been bonkers, and its utility has helped tremendously.

You could also run Dryad Arbor in place of a Forest or two, but I'm trying to maximize the utility of both sideboarded spells as Arbor cannot tap the turn it comes into play and can ultimately succumb to removal of any kind - including Wasteland. My method of thinking is strictly 'safety-first' in my whole sideboard strategy - while not diluting the strength of the pre-board deck in the process. The deck plays balls to the wall, so there is really no reason to overextend into your sideboard for additional Dread Return targets when the ones in the pre-board should be good enough and fast enough to win those games handily as it stands.

Enchantments are the cards giving us problems, gentlemen; it's time we address it and do something about it. Or shelve the deck; take your pick.

Izor
08-18-2011, 01:18 PM
If I understood you correctly you don't have anything in your main 60 that helps the anti-Leyline sideboard plan, right?

I guess that brings advantages but disadvantages as well. No diluting the main strategy, but in turn only a very slim chance to get all you need together when it comes to beating Leyline.

But I agree that the board doesn't really have any use for 14 DR targets. I wouldn't be sure though, if I wanted to dedicate my whole board to Leyline while I could also use some slots for Combo hate (Mindbreak Trap) and maybe 2-3 utility DR targets.

Michael Keller
08-18-2011, 02:01 PM
You have three (3) Forests and four (4) Land Grants; that gives you seven (7) initial ways to obtain at least one (1) Forest card without mulling to start the game. Combine that with eight (8) ways of dealing with Leyline at a maximum cost of one mana - in addition to being forced to draw cards each turn and inherently strengthening your chances of drawing into any combination of cards needed to destroy Leyline - and I think you have a pretty good chance to take care of business. (Or at the very minimum, increase your chances of surviving the game.)

The sideboard can be adjusted to different quantities or similar effects, but I'm not having any trouble with this configuration so far. Remember, even if an opponent mulligans into oblivion to find a Leyline, more than likely you'll start the game off with (at least) one of the combination pieces of ways to deal with it. Assuming you don't have the other, you can still draw each turn and that will give you an opportunity to find an answer. Meanwhile, your opponent has succumbed to an awful start in the desperate attempt to cripple you, while crippling themselves in the process.

Not that bad of a trade, if you ask me. Besides, drawing each turn also helps you inadvertently sculpt your hand so that when the time comes for Leyline to be destroyed, you have a solid plan to work with after the fact.

KevinTrudeau
08-18-2011, 02:21 PM
Enchantments are the cards giving us problems, gentlemen; it's time we address it and do something about it. Or shelve the deck; take your pick.

Shelve the deck.

I think the best way to bypass Leyline would be to ignore it, rather than destroy it. Something like the Hexmage/Depths/Urborg sideboard I saw someone run (I think it was aj) seems a lot better than the Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim/Forests board because while both provide heaps of antergy with the core of the deck, the Hexmage one allows you to cast a large portion of your maindeck, in addition to providing a new wincon. The Forests board also guarantees you'll be waiting a minimum of two turns sitting and doing nothing, even if you do beat the odds and draw both a Forest and removal in your opener.

If you do choose to run the Forests board though, I recommend green fetchlands over Land Grant, simply because it can't be countered. You also won't have to reveal your hand, which is only a minor issue, but still kind of sucks.

Michael Keller
08-18-2011, 04:33 PM
Shelve the deck.

I think the best way to bypass Leyline would be to ignore it, rather than destroy it. Something like the Hexmage/Depths/Urborg sideboard I saw someone run (I think it was aj) seems a lot better than the Reverent Silence/Nature's Claim/Forests board because while both provide heaps of antergy with the core of the deck, the Hexmage one allows you to cast a large portion of your maindeck, in addition to providing a new wincon. The Forests board also guarantees you'll be waiting a minimum of two turns sitting and doing nothing, even if you do beat the odds and draw both a Forest and removal in your opener.

If you do choose to run the Forests board though, I recommend green fetchlands over Land Grant, simply because it can't be countered. You also won't have to reveal your hand, which is only a minor issue, but still kind of sucks.

So what you're suggesting is alternating into an entirely new siding strategy based solely around a core of eleven to thirteen cards specifically, when the alternative is to protect forty-five to fifty that the entire basis of the deck revolves around? That seems like a relatively awful idea considering you have absolutely no way to produce those cards at a faster, more successful rate with little to no disruption. The alternative allows you to destroy a Leyline on the first turn and although it might 'set you back two turns,' it is still explicitly more redundant as you are now able to play the game instead of forfeiting.

Statistically speaking, I'm quite confident the odds of assembling those three cards chronologically (at a potential ratio of 4/4/4 - Hexmage/Depths/Urborg - are much more slim than requiring any combination of a ratio of 7/8 - Forests+Land Grant/Charm+Silence) favors the defensive approach. It's a non-conventional plan and it gives the deck a smooth set of outs that are much more reasonable to cast and open with (as you play more). It's not like you're playing anything else using this line; you're playing "Exile, Go" for the game and giving up two turns against a potentially weaker start from a multi-mulliganed opposing hand seems like a reasonable trade-off. In my experience, Land Grant has been fantastic.

If an opponent opens with Leyline and a Force (as you'd be on the forced play) to stop a Land Grant (or Hexmage, you pick), it doesn't matter what strategy you try: you're losing that game; you never had a chance to begin with. The format has slowed down drastically, which is a primary reason this deck has performed well.

KevinTrudeau
08-18-2011, 06:26 PM
First off, I'd just like to make it clear that I've never advocated running an anti-Leyline sideboard, and likely never will. I wasn't kidding when I said to shelve the deck if Leyline gets heavy play in your area.

The reasoning behind that new sideboard, if I'm not mistaken, is that boarding in lands would allow you to cast Bloodghast, Golgari Thug, Stinkweed Imp, Cabal Therapy, etc. in addition to the Hexmage/Depths combo with the eleven lands you now have (fifteen if you count Depths with Urborg), transforming it into a terrible aggro deck with a miser's combo finish. I agree that it's not very good (especially when you consider the fact that you have to weaken the maindeck by playing Dakmor Salvage), I just think that the philosophy behind it is marginally better than the enchantment destruction board, considering that plan will set you back a minimum of two turns before you even get to start dredging. Not to mention, the Hexmage plan bypasses all forms of grave hate, not only just Leyline and I guess Wheel of Sun and Moon.

Also, holding Land Grant, Reverent Silence, Reverent Silence would be mighty awkward against a hand of Leyline+a counterspell. I strongly recommend playing green fetches over Land Grant.

Michael Keller
08-18-2011, 07:31 PM
That's fine, but I'm simply iterating that you're going to be put on the play games two and or three, and your opponent realistically has to have Leyline, Blue card, Blue card. In that unlikely scenario, it doesn't matter what you play because that is far too powerful to overcome no matter what. But if you do decide to run Hexmage/Depths, you're going to need several turns to facilitate that and have it resolve. That is much harder to piece together than it looks.

If an opponent has a weak seven but a Leyline, they will probably keep it under the same reasoning you would keep a hand with a tool to fight the card: they know they can draw several turns out and be safe from anything you'll try to play. I'm being honest when I'm saying that if people are willing to realistically 'dumb down' their opening hands - and decks in general - by running a card like Leyline, I am going to punish them for relegating their entire survival on a single card. It completely warps their regular strategy, as a large percentage of players I would imagine would keep a terrible seven with a Leyline to simply invoke a handshake.

Running more land is perfectly fine instead of running Land Grants. I am running them because they allow me the flexibility of running a lower land count and keeping my threat density honest. I like that it replaces itself and gives you the option of allowing you to discard at eight cards if need be, which is actually kind of important. Also, no one is going to keep in hard-counters against a non-interactive deck (or at least they shouldn't). I wound up running into three decks last week running conditional and hard counters and each one of them I interviewed after the match to explain their sideboarding strategy to me. Each one said the same thing, that "counters just don't do anything against you and I have no idea what you run in your sideboard because you have no mana."

Keeping Misstep in is about the most important thing you can do. That should be it, though.

KevinTrudeau
08-18-2011, 11:00 PM
That is a good point about Leyline and its tendency to make opponents justify keeping poor hands; I guess that whole two turns business isn't as bad as I thought at first when you consider the opponent virtually mulligans to six, and in addition potentially keeps a bad hand that was banking on Leyline to give it time to develop. That Land Grant interaction with not playing the land initially and discarding is pretty sweet against Relic as well. Out of curiosity, what do you take out?

ajfirecracker
08-19-2011, 12:54 AM
So what you're suggesting is alternating into an entirely new siding strategy based solely around a core of eleven to thirteen cards specifically, when the alternative is to protect forty-five to fifty that the entire basis of the deck revolves around? That seems like a relatively awful idea considering you have absolutely no way to produce those cards at a faster, more successful rate with little to no disruption. The alternative allows you to destroy a Leyline on the first turn and although it might 'set you back two turns,' it is still explicitly more redundant as you are now able to play the game instead of forfeiting.

Statistically speaking, I'm quite confident the odds of assembling those three cards chronologically (at a potential ratio of 4/4/4 - Hexmage/Depths/Urborg - are much more slim than requiring any combination of a ratio of 7/8 - Forests+Land Grant/Charm+Silence) favors the defensive approach. It's a non-conventional plan and it gives the deck a smooth set of outs that are much more reasonable to cast and open with (as you play more). It's not like you're playing anything else using this line; you're playing "Exile, Go" for the game and giving up two turns against a potentially weaker start from a multi-mulliganed opposing hand seems like a reasonable trade-off. In my experience, Land Grant has been fantastic.

If an opponent opens with Leyline and a Force (as you'd be on the forced play) to stop a Land Grant (or Hexmage, you pick), it doesn't matter what strategy you try: you're losing that game; you never had a chance to begin with. The format has slowed down drastically, which is a primary reason this deck has performed well.

The Hexmage strategy only has 5 or so dead cards post-board, depending on how you count it. The aggro plan is actually fine against many decks, as they're forced to take out removal to fit in both graveyard hate and win-conditions (and removal is terrible against our main-deck, including Swords to Plowshares). This makes both the aggro plan and the combo plan much stronger than they appear at first glance.

In terms of speed/consistency/power, finding 2 particular cards (as lands are much more flexible) in a 60-card deck with 19 cycling cards and the ability to mulligan for a reasonable hand is much easier than finding a two-card combo without mulliganing at all (or at least very much), even when you can run a double playset of the cards. Typically, I produce the Hexmage kill by turn 5 (occasionally not at all, of course). Almost all decks are simply not prepared to deal with this after mulliganing for Leyline of the Void. On the plus side, my good hand isn't that much less likely than your good hand, while mine just wins and yours you don't do anything special, just get to play Magic (with a delay of several turns).

Michael Keller
08-19-2011, 09:03 AM
That is a good point about Leyline and its tendency to make opponents justify keeping poor hands; I guess that whole two turns business isn't as bad as I thought at first when you consider the opponent virtually mulligans to six, and in addition potentially keeps a bad hand that was banking on Leyline to give it time to develop. That Land Grant interaction with not playing the land initially and discarding is pretty sweet against Relic as well. Out of curiosity, what do you take out?

Against an opponent I suspect of having Leyline in his or her opening start, I have been toying with these substitutions (an important note: we do not know if an opponent is bringing in Leyline game two, so we need to play cautiously and not overextend the entire package into the main sixty):

I. Game Two Package with Suspected Opponent *Maybe* on Leyline

+4 Land Grant.
+4 Reverent Silence.
+3 Forest.

-4 Bloodghast.
-4 Nether Shadow.
-3 Dakmor Salvage.

II. Game Three Package with Opponent *Definitely* on Leyline

+4 Land Grant.
+4 Reverent Silence.
+4 Emerald Charm/Nature's Claim (if you choose so).
+3 Forest.

-4 Bloodghast.
-4 Nether Shadow.
-4 Street Wraith.
-3 Dakmor Salvage.


This has been turning the deck into a more streamlined Ichorid variant (most land-based configurations don't run Bloodghast or Nether Shadow). Cards like Shambling Shell and Street Wraith are still perfectly fine with exiling to Ichorids, and there are plenty more where that came from. Also, the Dredge count of the deck has not been tampered with, which is absolutely the most important thing when boarding a defensive package in. The removal of Street Wraith game three is certainly debatable, but I have found that he only really becomes better late in a match-set when playing against cards like Relic, Crypt, and Surgical Extraction. Leyline closes the door on it all, effectively turning him into a replacement for himself that gets exiled anyway. He does help you find an answer a little faster in Cycling, so I'm kind of on the fence about him. My goal game three is to beat down with tokens and Ichorids and Dread Returning the old fashioned way.

Nether Shadows and Bloodghasts give the deck a lot of redundancy, but the fact is the heart and soul of the deck (Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Dredgers, Dread Returns, targets, etc.) still remain 100% intact. The trick here is to not overhaul your entire deck game two, but rather play with a slight level of protection to deal with at least the threat of a suspected incoming Leyline. Obviously, if we see a Leyline game two, we know we have to have more tools to eliminate that threat game three. Silence can destroy more than one Leyline if the situation calls for it, but the game three strategy uses more targeted removal to deal explicitly and specifically with the threat individually.

It could be enough game two for the more cautious strategy to work, but at least here you're given the option of running four more protective elements to deal with the card. Otherwise, you should be good. I've even been considering knocking the Charm count down to three, but so far I've actually been using it over Silences when multiples arise (not too often game three).

Or you could just bypass the game two boarding strategy all together and just wait to see if Leyline actually does hit the table. Of course, in doing so, you'll lose. This at least gives you the option to fight it game two without necessarily having to pack it in and grants you the ability to board into eleven (11) cards instead of fifteen (15). I've even been exploring cutting down to six (6) defensive cards coming in instead of eight (8). This could open some slots up.

XSivPSI
08-21-2011, 08:47 PM
vs Hive mind combo heavy meta could we SB Chronotog and other stuff that lets you skip your turn?

berry
08-22-2011, 05:32 AM
Morning (Swedish-time), Sourcers.

Just a little lurker here with a few thoughts and questions
around what has been talked about in here.

@ajfirecracker:

Regarding the HexDepths-combo out of the board, for starters, I'm assuming this is for the Bauble-filled list? It would never work without a million cyclers. I'm just concerned about your thoughts around the meta and sideboarding. You say removal is terrible against our maindeck, but in a meta filled with NO RUG and StoneBlade removal will stay maindeck and even be boarded in (Wraths and Paths for StoneBlade). NO RUG will keep the bolts in to be able to get rid of our bridges.

This makes the 20/20 no shroud plan ridicilously easy to just... end.
It also turns their Wastelands on.


@Everyone complaining about combo:

What are you actually talking about? The fast combos that are actually being played are, what... Cephalid, Hypergenesis, Hive Mind(/Show and Tell), Reanimator & maybe a Pattern of Rebirth here and there. Not counting NO RUG, here.

All these decks can easily be raced with the help of a few well placed Therapies (Iona
doesn't hurt, either, which is why I'm wondering why people in here have stopped maining her).


@XSivPSI:

Your next upkeep will just be the turn you skip into, won't work.


@Anti Leyline Plans:

I really don't see the huge need for this. The deck is still pretty much under the radar and not at all played enough for us to be superscared about leylines. Also, not many of the actual DtB's are running black nor Leylines, and you should have no problem grinding through relics/crypts.

I do agree that one might be needed _in the future_, though, and will happily follow your sideboard-ideas.


And at last, just a quick question. What is up with everyone saying Gigapede helps us fight through the hate? What have I missed, here? I like Gigapede, he's 3 extra dredgers for me (since they sometimes get stuck on my hand, and I get a bad dredge), but he's never ever helped me through hate. He's not Phantasmagorian. What am I missing?

(So sorry for an incoherent post, I just woke up.)

Darklingske
08-22-2011, 04:23 PM
I went to a tournament this weekend with manaless. I'm a fan of Ichorid, but I've always played the mana version. This was the very first time I tried this build. Finished 3-2. Losses were White stax (I know, nobody plays this...) & BR Goblins. The stax list went T1 Trini, T2 Ghostly Prison = GG. Second game he just puked a Baneslayer out T3, equiped it with SoFI & SoFF & attacked on T4. I dredged like crazy, but couldn't find a dread return or a cabal. Against the Goblins: he raced me G1, I raced him G2 & he dropped leyline G3. Leyline = GG.
I won against UW control 2-0, elves 2-0 & maverick 2-0.
Overall I was very happy with the stability and nuttyness of the deck. The only thing I definitly want to change is the MU against LoTV & Propaganda-effects. Right now I'm thinking about an almost complete SB dedicated to beating enchantments. Something like:
4 Fetch
4 Dryad arbor
4 Reverent Silence
3 DR targets
Any Thoughts?

berry
08-22-2011, 05:12 PM
The only thing I definitly want to change is the MU against LoTV & Propaganda-effects.

Woodfall Primus..?

Michael Keller
08-22-2011, 05:34 PM
Regarding the HexDepths-combo out of the board, for starters, I'm assuming this is for the Bauble-filled list? It would never work without a million cyclers. I'm just concerned about your thoughts around the meta and sideboarding. You say removal is terrible against our maindeck, but in a meta filled with NO RUG and StoneBlade removal will stay maindeck and even be boarded in (Wraths and Paths for StoneBlade). NO RUG will keep the bolts in to be able to get rid of our bridges.

This makes the 20/20 no shroud plan ridicilously easy to just... end.
It also turns their Wastelands on.

It also forces you to nuke your own Bridges; not exactly ideal in a Dredge deck.

Final Fortune
08-22-2011, 05:40 PM
I went to a tournament this weekend with manaless. I'm a fan of Ichorid, but I've always played the mana version. This was the very first time I tried this build. Finished 3-2. Losses were White stax (I know, nobody plays this...) & BR Goblins. The stax list went T1 Trini, T2 Ghostly Prison = GG. Second game he just puked a Baneslayer out T3, equiped it with SoFI & SoFF & attacked on T4. I dredged like crazy, but couldn't find a dread return or a cabal. Against the Goblins: he raced me G1, I raced him G2 & he dropped leyline G3. Leyline = GG.
I won against UW control 2-0, elves 2-0 & maverick 2-0.
Overall I was very happy with the stability and nuttyness of the deck. The only thing I definitly want to change is the MU against LoTV & Propaganda-effects. Right now I'm thinking about an almost complete SB dedicated to beating enchantments. Something like:
4 Fetch
4 Dryad arbor
4 Reverent Silence
3 DR targets
Any Thoughts?

Leyline is a scoop, but side cases like Propaganda or Glacial Chasm can be dealt with by diversifying your Dread Return targets in the SB with Terrastadon and co. Basically, any anti-Dredge card that doesn't stop us from Dredging is defeated by Dread Return -> ???

XSivPSI
08-22-2011, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=berry;578486]
@XSivPSI:

Your next upkeep will just be the turn you skip into, won't work.
[\quote]

But the opponent takes another turn after I choose to skip mine and then would lose during his upkeep. So it could potentially buy you some time until they can get rid of it.

Either way it was a joke but seems like it should work.

ajfirecracker
08-22-2011, 11:04 PM
It also forces you to nuke your own Bridges; not exactly ideal in a Dredge deck.

You do realize that the point of a transformational sideboard is to, like.. transform?

Also how does the Hexmage plan force you to nuke your own Bridges?

As to removal: I don't think they're likely to keep it in, as Swords/Path are the only good removal spells against us and even those generally come out for cards that do anything proactive. Supposing they did keep it, though, between Gitaxian Probe, Urza's Bauble, and Cabal Therapy it's not hard to figure out if they have a removal spell. Even if it were, Bolt is dead against the combo ( with Hexmage/Depths properly played) as is Wasteland (okay, it buys time), as is Wrath of God, which if they cast we can make a 20/20 indestructible in response and just kill them across the now-empty board.

Supposing, however, that this were an issue, and removal were quite good against us... all of the non-exile removal can be dealt with simply by using Darkblast or Cabal Therapy to sacrifice Golgari Thug and recur Hexmage. This doesn't work if they're sitting behind a Leyline of the Void, but if they are we should just win for not being a graveyard deck (i.e. kill them with beaters and/or a 20/20).

Pulp_Fiction
08-23-2011, 03:21 AM
I guess my combo player mentality gets the best of me. I am more than fine losing to the lone Yixlid Jailer and Leyline of the Void. My goal is to maximixe the effectiveness of the deck G1 and ready a SB for g2. Thats why I play LED and DA in the main. Because against any BS controls deck .... u still just win, then u board out the shit g2. building a board to handle the black leyline is shit IMOP.

I agree w Kevin, since this deck is unexpected. Dredge is a combo deck but ... it has the capability to beatdown the opponent .... most dont. Playing a deck like this u should accept the auto-loss and play accordingly. Simply because it wi;; enable u 2 win a lot of other mathups like Zoo w Crypt and Teeg. If u want 2 play Dredge, that has answers ro hate .... u run Pimps and Tribe, otherwise u play the deck accordingly. No joke, u can build a nasty SB to hate shit out .... but I am more than content w Losing to Leyline since .... it is terrible and anyone who wants to mull into their Gy hate deserves a win. Aggro Loam will stomp them out still, Leyline of the Void will happen, but playing a deck like this ... u should simply accept the losses and move on.

Final Fortune
08-23-2011, 04:53 AM
I guess my combo player mentality gets the best of me. I am more than fine losing to the lone Yixlid Jailer and Leyline of the Void. My goal is to maximixe the effectiveness of the deck G1 and ready a SB for g2. Thats why I play LED and DA in the main. Because against any BS controls deck .... u still just win, then u board out the shit g2. building a board to handle the black leyline is shit IMOP.

I agree w Kevin, since this deck is unexpected. Dredge is a combo deck but ... it has the capability to beatdown the opponent .... most dont. Playing a deck like this u should accept the auto-loss and play accordingly. Simply because it wi;; enable u 2 win a lot of other mathups like Zoo w Crypt and Teeg. If u want 2 play Dredge, that has answers ro hate .... u run Pimps and Tribe, otherwise u play the deck accordingly. No joke, u can build a nasty SB to hate shit out .... but I am more than content w Losing to Leyline since .... it is terrible and anyone who wants to mull into their Gy hate deserves a win. Aggro Loam will stomp them out still, Leyline of the Void will happen, but playing a deck like this ... u should simply accept the losses and move on.

This, also I'm 99% certain that Serum Powder is better than either Bauble or Gigapede in the MD, increasing the statistical chance of opening a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith with an uncounterable, free mulligan is fucking ridiculous and I feel idiotic for not playing with the card for this long.

Izor
08-23-2011, 06:06 AM
This, also I'm 99% certain that Serum Powder is better than either Bauble or Gigapede in the MD, increasing the statistical chance of opening a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith with an uncounterable, free mulligan is fucking ridiculous and I feel idiotic for not playing with the card for this long.

And what if your hand looks like Narcomoeba, Narcomoeba, Phanta, Bridge, Bridge, Serum Powder, Ichorid?
Vintage Lists can still exile that and win by turn 2, if they only hit the Bazaar in their next seven. This Legacy deck can not. Aside from that, Powder is a dead card in your graveyard and in keepable hands as well.

That being said, I'm a bit skeptical towards Serum Powder. It works for a deck that practically is guaranteed to have an undisruptable auto win once it finds one out of 4 cards in its opener, but aside from that, I doubt that works.

berry
08-23-2011, 06:16 AM
@People talking down on sideboarding anti-Leyline:

What's up with this? We get it, you fold to leyline, and you maximize your board to get the most out of the games where there is no leyline (I'm curious as to how your board looks like, though). Saying someone should NOT try to find away around this is like saying you should not build decks, you should just play deck X that wins.

Stop trying to tell other people how they should play the deck and start talking about how your deck plays out, and how you built it. Etc.


Also, it seems shitloads of time has been spent here discussing the maindeck. In the end, there's the bauble-list, and there's the Rausch-list. Rausch's list has obviously put up the most results, but I can see the bauble-list being strong too (although it most certainly seems to play out a whole different way).

But instead of just going "this is awesome" and "that is not awesome", try showing us games and results instead?

In my humble opinion we have two fully working (it seems) MB's (although it's obviously free to tech away, but you get my point) and a sideboard that is in utter chaos. Obviously the goal here should be to find a solid SB for both the Bauble and the Bauble-less lists? I'm not talking anti-leyline here, just regular good ass SB's (although I think it's still great that people keep focusing on trying out an anti-leyline board).


@AJFireCracker:

You're right, obviously the Wraths are useless (although a good UW pilot will still bring these in against you), but the Paths are not and they will be brought in, and the StP's will be left in. Also, you say that if they get the leyline you still win because you're not a graveyard deck. The problem is a deck like UW can keep a hand of: fetch, leyline, brainstorm, brainstorm and still win fairly easily over a deck that is Junk Depths minus the Junk.

Final Fortune
08-23-2011, 06:25 AM
I couldn't care less, Exiling business in Dredge with Serum Powder is the equivalent of discarding cards in aggro-control vs Mill Stone, you're going to have just as many hands where you're happy to Exile 6 bad cards. The opportunity cost of holding a dead card in Dredge is lower than in any other deck conceivable, and Dredging a Serum Powder is no different than Dredging a Bauble.

It's just incrementally better than every other card I've run in that slot, and I've tested pretty thoroughly.

Final Fortune
08-23-2011, 06:26 AM
I couldn't care less, Exiling business in Dredge with Serum Powder is the equivalent of discarding cards in aggro-control vs Mill Stone, you're going to have just as many hands where you're happy to Exile 6 bad cards. The opportunity cost of holding a dead card in Dredge is lower than in any other deck conceivable, and Dredging a Serum Powder is no different than Dredging a Bauble.

It's just incrementally better than every other card I've run in that slot, and I've tested pretty thoroughly.

ajfirecracker
08-23-2011, 08:11 AM
I couldn't care less, Exiling business in Dredge with Serum Powder is the equivalent of discarding cards in aggro-control vs Mill Stone, you're going to have just as many hands where you're happy to Exile 6 bad cards. The opportunity cost of holding a dead card in Dredge is lower than in any other deck conceivable, and Dredging a Serum Powder is no different than Dredging a Bauble.

It's just incrementally better than every other card I've run in that slot, and I've tested pretty thoroughly.

I don't find Serum Powder necessary... in this deck. I get a dredger in the opener so often that I'd rarely want to risk having to mulligan just for a slightly faster kill.

If you keep any opener with any dredger that also has a Serum Powder, why are you running it?

As to the sideboard: I think it works. It's especially effective against UW Control, in my testing, although it tends to be very effective against basically any deck that slows itself down to bring in hate.

berry
08-23-2011, 08:27 AM
Do the UW decks you test against play leyline? If so, they're doing it wrong.

Michael Keller
08-23-2011, 11:12 AM
You do realize that the point of a transformational sideboard is to, like.. transform?

Also how does the Hexmage plan force you to nuke your own Bridges?

As to removal: I don't think they're likely to keep it in, as Swords/Path are the only good removal spells against us and even those generally come out for cards that do anything proactive. Supposing they did keep it, though, between Gitaxian Probe, Urza's Bauble, and Cabal Therapy it's not hard to figure out if they have a removal spell. Even if it were, Bolt is dead against the combo ( with Hexmage/Depths properly played) as is Wasteland (okay, it buys time), as is Wrath of God, which if they cast we can make a 20/20 indestructible in response and just kill them across the now-empty board.

Supposing, however, that this were an issue, and removal were quite good against us... all of the non-exile removal can be dealt with simply by using Darkblast or Cabal Therapy to sacrifice Golgari Thug and recur Hexmage. This doesn't work if they're sitting behind a Leyline of the Void, but if they are we should just win for not being a graveyard deck (i.e. kill them with beaters and/or a 20/20).

I know what a transformational sideboard is, and what I'm trying to explain is that - like most others agree - you're diluting your sixty with a combo that is more proactive than a defensive sideboard trying to offset the threat of Leyline and in turn seriously impairing your previously non-existent mulligan strategy. The deck cannot afford to mulligan into finding pieces of what really amounts to a situational, very conditional combo that requires drawing into multiple lands, Hexmage, and Depths. This gives an opponent the ability to interact with you more, in addition to opening yourself up to Waste-hate. Is it really worth the effort while your opponent sits there accumulating answers?

I'm not saying the combo is bad - but it is, in fact, bad in Manaless Ichorid.

My point is it requires a great deal more setup than the package I was proposing. If your opponent is in fact on Leyline, then an unanswered one means you lose. There really isn't more to it than that. However, if you decide you want to be able to stick to the Dredge mechanic to win the game, then packing some relegated removal in the board to deal with the threat of Leyline seems *much* easier and cheaper to acquire (as each of the sideboarded cards can interact with each other at an accelerated rate (a zero to one mana maximum) with only a single land required (with more redundancy at six to eight slots dedicated to the same utility). An opponent is also more than likely going to take out counter-magic versus you in the second and third games, but they will not digress from their removal. This opens the door for any deck sporting Leyline and an aggressive mulligan strategy to give in to enchantment removal effects.

I just fail to see how this plan seems like a 'worse' idea than trying to assemble a combo consisting of a setup of three to four cards and arguably being the most disruptable in the entire format.

Final Fortune
08-23-2011, 12:42 PM
I don't find Serum Powder necessary... in this deck. I get a dredger in the opener so often that I'd rarely want to risk having to mulligan just for a slightly faster kill.

If you keep any opener with any dredger that also has a Serum Powder, why are you running it?

As to the sideboard: I think it works. It's especially effective against UW Control, in my testing, although it tends to be very effective against basically any deck that slows itself down to bring in hate.

Because opening with Shamling Shell is no where near as good as opening with Golgari Grave Troll and/or Phatasmagorian, what I realized was you actually can't keep a hand with only Shambling Shell and expect to race Merfolk in testing so Serum Powder increases the virtual number of Dredgers and their effective Dredge.

Obviously you don't have to take my word for it, but Serm Powder adds a lot of consistency for increasing the odds of drawing into your strongest cards uncounterablly and I think it adds a manaless, undisruptable effect that deserves a lot of consideration.

Regardless, I'm not convinced the "cantrip" list is better than the Serum Powder, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis lists after a lot of playtesting, mainly because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond and DDDing into Deep Analysis and having the ability to aggressively mulligan is winning too many games on turn 3. As Manaless Dredge stands, it can't beat a lot of tier 2 decks like Elves, Affinity and Monolith/Orb combo consistently at the rate it gold fishes.

Kinderschreck
08-23-2011, 12:45 PM
What happend to the idear of playing Unmask?
I loved the option to be faster by one turn and be able to start and decive your opponent. ^^

And why not playing Terastodon instead of Angel of Despair / Woodfall Primus?
You can get ride of all the things bugging you and not only one card and then think "geez, only if I had now a cabal therapy in my graveyard!"

TraxDaMax
08-23-2011, 09:59 PM
I actually had great succes with the forest/claim sideboard. I play terrastadon main though. You're game will be akward with the lands, but you can abuse land triggers on fetch to double sac bloodghasts, which helps when you board out narcomoebas

blue_mage
08-24-2011, 12:42 AM
Hi I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.

I played the same list as Nicholas in a small tourney.

As expected I usually win on game 1 but i just lose to a turn 1 relic of progenitus.
by the way I was up against a UBW blade deck.

he mulled to five just to get the hate but he had time to recover since my deck was to slow against the hate.

So how do you play around relic of progenitus?

Is contagion still a good side board card?


Is there a new list that's similar but much better against hate?


And by the way i also lose to affinity it was just to fast. Is there anything we could do to win this kind of match ups?

thanks

Pulp_Fiction
08-24-2011, 03:58 AM
The kind of post above me is why I rarelty post any more. Dredge is and forever will be a combo deck. Manaless is a whole different animal, ur goal is to avoid MM and dominate. Its that simple. Making a SB depends on ur meta, there is no set 75 that will win. I am tired of hearing about SB options becausee it is whatever. I play LED and DA in the main to maximize g1 wins ... which is exactly where dredge should thrive.

Making a list u are comfortable w is all that matters. BUT, building a board w black leyline hate is another story. This deck is capable of insane things. But it has limitations. Just know that, this deck ... like Dragon Stompy is a meta deck, it folds to certain cards and has bad matchups. Ur goal, when pil0ting dredge should be to capitalize on the the blue idiots playins Standstill BS, and maximizeur list to beat ur meta. Thats it. This deck WILL TAKE AUTO-LOSSES. Its that simple, and if ur not OK with that ... sleeve up anopther deck. Its that simple.

Final Fortune
08-24-2011, 04:30 AM
The kind of post above me is why I rarelty post any more. Dredge is and forever will be a combo deck. Manaless is a whole different animal, ur goal is to avoid MM and dominate. Its that simple. Making a SB depends on ur meta, there is no set 75 that will win. I am tired of hearing about SB options becausee it is whatever. I play LED and DA in the main to maximize g1 wins ... which is exactly where dredge should thrive.

Making a list u are comfortable w is all that matters. BUT, building a board w black leyline hate is another story. This deck is capable of insane things. But it has limitations. Just know that, this deck ... like Dragon Stompy is a meta deck, it folds to certain cards and has bad matchups. Ur goal, when pil0ting dredge should be to capitalize on the the blue idiots playins Standstill BS, and maximizeur list to beat ur meta. Thats it. This deck WILL TAKE AUTO-LOSSES. Its that simple, and if ur not OK with that ... sleeve up anopther deck. Its that simple.

This, what people need to realize is most of the metagame is consigned to taking a game 1 loss vs. us, we have an unfair advantage pre-board and they have an unfair advantage post-board IF they expect you're on Dredge before the tournament and prepare themselves accordingly, which is a big IF. With the way the metagame is headed towards RUG Pro and Blade Control, Dredge is a metagame deck, a glass cannon that'll either hit or miss. You do not react to other decks metagaming against you by playing a different SB, you react to other decks metagaming against you by not playing this deck.

berry
08-24-2011, 05:31 AM
If posts asking for help with the deck the thread is about disturbs you, maybe you just should not post, then?

Also, this deck does NOT fold to T1 relic, if played correctly/has some luck.

ajfirecracker
08-24-2011, 08:32 AM
This, what people need to realize is most of the metagame is consigned to taking a game 1 loss vs. us, we have an unfair advantage pre-board and they have an unfair advantage post-board IF they expect you're on Dredge before the tournament and prepare themselves accordingly, which is a big IF. With the way the metagame is headed towards RUG Pro and Blade Control, Dredge is a metagame deck, a glass cannon that'll either hit or miss. You do not react to other decks metagaming against you by playing a different SB, you react to other decks metagaming against you by not playing this deck.

This line of reasoning (at least part of it) is exactly what leads me to play the sideboard I do.

Game 1 we're typically favored by a respectable margin. Since the sideboard is roughly 50% versus almost everything, this allows us to simply play that and turn our game 1 percentage into our match percentage. Assuming we're 80% game 1 (which is absurd but possibly accurate against most of the top decks) and 50% games 2 and 3 (again, absurd but possibly accurate), our match win percentage would be 80% (i.e. possibly better than Hulk Flash, possibly better than early Necropotence, certainly better than every other dominant deck).

So the question I have is this: what is more valuable for a deck to do, take 80% matchups and make them 90% matchups, or take 0% matchups and make them 80% matchups? (Actually it depends on the relative number of each of these, which is why we don't sideboard 15 cards against Spanish Inquisition or Belcher). Despite the low amount of hate being played, I still think it's worthwhile to preserve our good matchups, possibly garner splash improvement in a few places, and (ideally) beat all the graveyard hate.

(Keep in mind that if they have no hate you can always just run the maindeck again in Game 3, so assume Game1-Game2-Game3 goes 80-50-80 versus 80-80-80 -depending on hate- and 80-50-50 versus 80-5-5 -also depending on hate- .)

Edit: What else would you possibly run in the sideboard, anyway? A million anti-combo cards is the only solution to anything that we can actually implement, and combo {namely, combo that's faster than us} is not nearly as prevalent as graveyard hate.

berry
08-24-2011, 08:43 AM
Considering the fact that no top tier deck runs Leyline of the Void my sideboard is:
4 Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity

1 offs: Blazing Archon, Llawan, Elesh, Inkwell, Stormtide, Ancestors Chosen, Sphinx of Steel.

Even here I'm running targets I will most likely never use. So I'm open to SB-discussion even though I still find it necessary to run a anti-LotV-board.

Darklingske
08-24-2011, 10:41 AM
If posts asking for help with the deck the thread is about disturbs you, maybe you just should not post, then?

Couldn't aggree more!

Now about Relic T1. Best way to avoid folding to this is through Phanta. Discard Phanta, he taps Relic, you discard 3 cards & exile the least important one. Keep DDD and put pressure on him. He will have to blow the relic. Don't worry, just keep DDD asap. Just 1 relic is not often GG for us. We can recover pretty fast from 1 relic blow.

Affinity is indeed fast, but you can -more often then not- just join the race.

XSivPSI
08-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Would anyone care to share specifics on when you would board in these particular 1-ofs?

Sideboard:
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blazing Archon
1 Gigapede
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
4 Contagion
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Michael Keller
08-24-2011, 11:06 AM
The kind of post above me is why I rarelty post any more. Dredge is and forever will be a combo deck. Manaless is a whole different animal, ur goal is to avoid MM and dominate. Its that simple. Making a SB depends on ur meta, there is no set 75 that will win. I am tired of hearing about SB options becausee it is whatever. I play LED and DA in the main to maximize g1 wins ... which is exactly where dredge should thrive.

Making a list u are comfortable w is all that matters. BUT, building a board w black leyline hate is another story. This deck is capable of insane things. But it has limitations. Just know that, this deck ... like Dragon Stompy is a meta deck, it folds to certain cards and has bad matchups. Ur goal, when pil0ting dredge should be to capitalize on the the blue idiots playins Standstill BS, and maximizeur list to beat ur meta. Thats it. This deck WILL TAKE AUTO-LOSSES. Its that simple, and if ur not OK with that ... sleeve up anopther deck. Its that simple.

It's posts like this that make me want to post more.

What you are arguing is to take a deck with an absurdly high game one win percentage, exploit it, and then bail out of any sort of protective plan game two (and potentially three), and accepting the fact that Manaless Dredge - as you indicated a different "beast" than its counterpart - just packs it up and loses.

No deck in Legacy or any format for that matter will ever thrive at Tier One status with a sideboard plan dedicated to accept unconditional and immediate defeat to any form of relegated graveyard hate. It's not as 'simple' as you make things out to be, quite frankly, this archetype requires a serious line of consideration for its sideboard because it has such a powerful game one approach. The swing in favorability is so dramatic after an opponent boards in against you that there is no good reason to accept an 'auto-loss' and bail out on any sort of plan to fight through hate, which is far more prevalent than anyone disagreeing with this concept gives credit for.

And for the record, those Blue "idiots" you refer to playing Standstill might lose to Manaless Dredge, but that same "idiot" will seriously burst your bubble so damn quick the next time you run into him by packing enough graveyard hate to last a lifetime. And that means you lose - and become an "idiot" in the process - because you couldn't plan one step ahead in fully preparing for the fact those same people you trumped last week will show up the following week and blow you out with hate because they want vindication and will not accept losing to Dredge. To not prepare accordingly is not only irresponsible as a player, but a deck-builder as well.

There is no reason what-so-ever to succumb to graveyard hate of any kind when running a deck fully dependent on its primary sixty cards so powerful that finding a way to circumvent an auto-loss seems completely reasonable and acceptable. Maybe I don't want to "sleeve up another deck." Maybe a lot of other people don't want to "sleeve up another deck."

Maybe we want to win games with Manaless Dredge, you know, preferably more than one in a match. Just because Dredge is a meta-based deck doesn't mean there isn't a challenge in testing the theory that, perhaps, maybe a sideboard plan dedicated to actually improve on "auto-loss" match-ups isn't a bad idea at all.

Two weeks ago, I ran into three opponents out of four rounds that ran Leyline of the Void - and powered them out turn zero, no mulligans, games two and three, every...single...time. Needless to say, I lost those games - without a sideboard plan dedicated to fighting it. I didn't play last week, but intend on playing tonight. I am running a configuration dedicated to fighting this issue (as indicated the page prior), basically running it right into a horde of Leylines. I will post the results tomorrow and let everyone know how effective (or ineffective) it turns out to be.

Capiche?

Izor
08-24-2011, 06:27 PM
Manaless Dredge is really the strangest and most perverted deck in legacy. Every MtG player will tell you that you should never build a 15 card sb just to beat one single card.

While this might be true for manaless Dredge as well, there actually is just no card that can reliably be run in its sideboard. Then, I gues it's viable to dedicate the 15 to one single card.

Just a weird weird deck...

blue_mage
08-24-2011, 09:28 PM
Couldn't aggree more!

Now about Relic T1. Best way to avoid folding to this is through Phanta. Discard Phanta, he taps Relic, you discard 3 cards & exile the least important one. Keep DDD and put pressure on him. He will have to blow the relic. Don't worry, just keep DDD asap. Just 1 relic is not often GG for us. We can recover pretty fast from 1 relic blow.

Affinity is indeed fast, but you can -more often then not- just join the race.

Thanks guys for answering my queries in a manner that is appropriate. :)

Regarding turn 1 relic. That's what I actually did, turn 1 discard phanta. Then I use its ability to discard 3 cards in response to relic's exile one card ability. then on the next discard phase i discarded phanta again. discard 3 cards at EOT.

Unfortunately at the time he blows relic. I only have like 4 cards in hand. So I have to wait for four turns again so that I can have 8 cards in hand to discard one card to be able to dredge again.

But here is what I tried in MWS yesterday. I played slow but just enough to pressure my opponent. I discarded phanta turn one again but only use its ability once so that i can just have a dredger on turn 2. And never use its ability again up until he blows his relic. So I was able to keep a 7 card hand.

ajfirecracker
08-24-2011, 10:25 PM
This is my list with Hexmage sideboard:

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 River Kelpie

SB:
3 Barren Moor
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths

Obviously, this just blanks any opposing hate package. In matchups where the opponent is fundamentally faster, we can also run this to try and get a nuts opener with a 20/20 (and ideally some disruption from Cabal Therapy). I think this form of the deck loses to really fast decks that kill in the first ~3 turns, and just beats everything else.

The other sideboard plan I think is actually worth running is something like:

Maindeck:
Fairly normal, maybe a bit high on cantrips

SB:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2-3 Dread Return Targets
8-9 Other combo hate

This plan still loses to Leyline, but should beat basically everything else. I don't think it's possible to make manaless dredge beat fast combo and the highly-specific graveyard hate cards (like Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer) but I could be wrong about that if you really push the deck in multiple strange directions (like LED + Arrogant Wurm + Reckless Wurm, perhaps).

On the other hand, 4 Contagion (should be Gut Shot, especially if you only bring it in against Yixlid Jailer, but we'll ignore that) and 11 random DR targets helps basically none of your matchups by more than an tiny bit, and gives you basically the same strategic profile after sideboarding - you lose to basically the same strategies and decks and beat basically the same strategies and decks. While this is fine if your read on the metagame is incredible and you definitely want to adopt the same strategic posture all day long, it's bound to be the wrong plan in the majority of situations.

KevinTrudeau
08-25-2011, 12:25 AM
This, also I'm 99% certain that Serum Powder is better than either Bauble or Gigapede in the MD, increasing the statistical chance of opening a Golgari Grave Troll, Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith with an uncounterable, free mulligan is fucking ridiculous and I feel idiotic for not playing with the card for this long.

I've often times felt that the minimum dredge number in this deck should be four, so this doesn't sound too bad in theory. I don't like the thought of adding another dead GY card, but it could very well work out nicely. That is, of course, assuming you're replacing Shambling Swarm; replacing Mishra's Bauble could very well turn out to be even better even though it seems like it has the potential to create a lot of awkward opening hands. I'd need to actually play with the card for a while before forming any concrete opinion. Seems like it could even find a place in the sideboard if it doesn't make the sixty-card roster.


Considering the fact that no top tier deck runs Leyline of the Void my sideboard is:
4 Contagion
4 Leyline of Sanctity

1 offs: Blazing Archon, Llawan, Elesh, Inkwell, Stormtide, Ancestors Chosen, Sphinx of Steel.

Even here I'm running targets I will most likely never use. So I'm open to SB-discussion even though I still find it necessary to run a anti-LotV-board.

Targets should either win you the game on the spot (Flame-kin Zealot), or take care of cards that would prevent you from winning (Angel of Despair/Terastodon/Woodfall Primus/Child of Alara+Realm Razer). There's no sense in plopping an Iona into play when you could have just won the game that turn. There are some notable exceptions, such as Serra Avatar against a Painter-heavy metagame (if one even exists), but I think this philosophy rings true for the most part.

Also, I think it was you that said it was wrong for me and others to tell people to give up on finding a successful sideboard plan around Leyline; I completely agree. I would LOVE for my assertion to be proven incorrect, I just don't think it's consistently possible to beat Leyline given the current cardpool.


Capiche?

Capiche, I look forward to the hard data.


This is my list with Hexmage sideboard:

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 River Kelpie

SB:
3 Barren Moor
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths

Obviously, this just blanks any opposing hate package. In matchups where the opponent is fundamentally faster, we can also run this to try and get a nuts opener with a 20/20 (and ideally some disruption from Cabal Therapy). I think this form of the deck loses to really fast decks that kill in the first ~3 turns, and just beats everything else.

The other sideboard plan I think is actually worth running is something like:

Maindeck:
Fairly normal, maybe a bit high on cantrips

SB:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2-3 Dread Return Targets
8-9 Other combo hate

This plan still loses to Leyline, but should beat basically everything else. I don't think it's possible to make manaless dredge beat fast combo and the highly-specific graveyard hate cards (like Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer) but I could be wrong about that if you really push the deck in multiple strange directions (like LED + Arrogant Wurm + Reckless Wurm, perhaps).

Interesting that you cut the Phantasmagorians for two additional Kelpies; I agree that there should be more draw targets than what was in your initial Depths list, but at the cost of Phantasmagorian?

That's pretty much the sideboard template I was thinking of as well. I've been thinking about Leyline of Sanctity filling out four of those anti-combo slots since it also blanks a lot of grave hate and enables the ultimate mise hand of LED+Leyline+GGT.

berry
08-25-2011, 03:28 AM
@KevinTrudeau:

You can should here and there as much as you like, but if you wan't to play a deck that combos out fast and maybe has enough zombies for the FKZ-win or not, I'd say play regular dredge. The entire point of Manaless Dredge (from the beginning, that is) was to be able to grind out opponents. You won't be as fast or will the board with zombies as fast as a mana + LED-based Dredge-deck. Playing FKZ means you either dredge just that good that you get to go off in time, or you sit with your DR-target in your GY waiting to have enough for lethal on board.

With Iona, who acts like an answer you can plop in at any time disregarding the board state almost, you can dump her in play on T2-3 and then safely grind it home from there.

I get that alot of people in here don't like Rausch's list (why grind when you can combo out! why play manaless when you can play regular dredge?), but this is what that list does - and believe me, even though a few of you guys who actively write in this thread likes to play with FKZ and Bauble's, the majority of Manaless Dredgers don't.

Also, I don't think the cardpool is enough for a Leyline-beating-SB either. But I'm not gonna tell others to stop trying. That's just stupid.

And you bring in Contagion vs silly stuff like Grim Lavamancer and Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull too sometimes, it all depends.


@AJFireCracker:

See, this is what I don't get. How does that list "beat everything else"? If you're talking about the MB, my bad, you're probably right. I just, while writing this, realized that that might be the case. But I might as well: IF you meant the sideboard. HOW does it beat UW StoneBlade i.e.? Again, it's JunkDepths without the Junk.

jin
08-25-2011, 03:47 AM
@KevinTrudeau:

You can should here and there as much as you like, but if you wan't to play a deck that combos out fast and maybe has enough zombies for the FKZ-win or not, I'd say play regular dredge. The entire point of Manaless Dredge (from the beginning, that is) was to be able to grind out opponents. You won't be as fast or will the board with zombies as fast as a mana + LED-based Dredge-deck. Playing FKZ means you either dredge just that good that you get to go off in time, or you sit with your DR-target in your GY waiting to have enough for lethal on board.

With Iona, who acts like an answer you can plop in at any time disregarding the board state almost, you can dump her in play on T2-3 and then safely grind it home from there.

I get that alot of people in here don't like Rausch's list (why grind when you can combo out! why play manaless when you can play regular dredge?), but this is what that list does - and believe me, even though a few of you guys who actively write in this thread likes to play with FKZ and Bauble's, the majority of Manaless Dredgers don't.

Also, I don't think the cardpool is enough for a Leyline-beating-SB either. But I'm not gonna tell others to stop trying. That's just stupid.

And you bring in Contagion vs silly stuff like Grim Lavamancer and Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull too sometimes, it all depends.



I cannot agree with you more. This is all true for me, except the bit that's underlined which I don't really understand. The rest is all true.

The main reason why I think this deck is so difficult to build a sideboard for is because Rausch seems to be playing a deck that is already boarded. It feels like any sideboard plan would be unnecessary. So far, like everyone else, I'm stuck on the sideboard as well. Against Leyline of the Void, I still feel the dryad arbor into Reverent of Silence is the best strategy possibly in conjunction with Serum Powder since we really do want to keep as many cards as possible. I think if Leyline is really that bad of a matchup, dedicating 15 cards to it won't hurt any other match up since the preboard game feels postboarded..

Yeah, I'm not really contributing anything that hasn't already been said though. I just wanted to say I agree with you on your view on manaless...

I don't feel that speeding it up is the answer.

Izor
08-25-2011, 08:13 AM
I get that alot of people in here don't like Rausch's list (why grind when you can combo out! why play manaless when you can play regular dredge?), but this is what that list does - and believe me, even though a few of you guys who actively write in this thread likes to play with FKZ and Bauble's, the majority of Manaless Dredgers don't.

I don't agree with you, but not because I'm someone who thinks he has to have the FKZ everywhere, but because I think you transferred a problem of the mana variants to this deck. Mana variants can't really afford to play many DR targets. Manaless can. It cas enough slots in the main, so it can easily play 3-4 DR plus 3-4 targets. And given the natural speed deficit of manaless, it's only logical that people try to win as fast as possible with those DR packages. That doesn't necessarily have to be FKZ, but also 3 Sphinx plus Iona or something like that.


And you bring in Contagion vs silly stuff like Grim Lavamancer and Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull too sometimes, it all depends.

Erm, NO. You never bring Contagion against anything but Yixlid Jailer himself. You lose two cards from your hand by casting it, so it better make a win possible in a situation where you wouldn't be able to win otherwise. Lavamancer and SFM are no problems. You don't waste two cards to kill those, you just play through them.

And the reason why Contagion is better than Gut Shot is the fact that it dodges Misstep, doesn't cost life and can kill some random creature besides Jailer as well. The drawback is that you lose one more card, but IMO that's acceptable in this case.



@AJFireCracker:

See, this is what I don't get. How does that list "beat everything else"? If you're talking about the MB, my bad, you're probably right. I just, while writing this, realized that that might be the case. But I might as well: IF you meant the sideboard. HOW does it beat UW StoneBlade i.e.? Again, it's JunkDepths without the Junk.

This is where I agree. IF Hexmage plus Depths on the board summoned a 20/20 Progenitus, I'd probably play it as well. The fact that everyone and his mom play Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mind Sucker are a huge problem. Also, random flying dudes can just block the Avatar all day long and buy more than enough time to get through it. Maze of Ith is another problem.

ajfirecracker
08-25-2011, 08:29 AM
@KevinTrudeau:

You can should here and there as much as you like, but if you wan't to play a deck that combos out fast and maybe has enough zombies for the FKZ-win or not, I'd say play regular dredge. The entire point of Manaless Dredge (from the beginning, that is) was to be able to grind out opponents. You won't be as fast or will the board with zombies as fast as a mana + LED-based Dredge-deck. Playing FKZ means you either dredge just that good that you get to go off in time, or you sit with your DR-target in your GY waiting to have enough for lethal on board.

...

I get that alot of people in here don't like Rausch's list (why grind when you can combo out! why play manaless when you can play regular dredge?), but this is what that list does - and believe me, even though a few of you guys who actively write in this thread likes to play with FKZ and Bauble's, the majority of Manaless Dredgers don't.

...

See, this is what I don't get. How does that list "beat everything else"? If you're talking about the MB, my bad, you're probably right. I just, while writing this, realized that that might be the case. But I might as well: IF you meant the sideboard. HOW does it beat UW StoneBlade i.e.? Again, it's JunkDepths without the Junk.

I really dislike this line of reasoning. Who cares what the 'original point' of a deck or strategy was? Just play the best possible 75.

As to beating everything: There's only two reasons to bring in the transformational sideboard: 1) You know/suspect they have graveyard hate, or 2) You need to get lucky against a deck your maindeck can't beat (say, Belcher). Obviously, the second one is rough. Unless you run a lot of anti-combo cards, this'll always be true. As to the first, I think it's pretty obvious that this is a better plan than just playing from the graveyard (sort of by definition). It's not actually a Hexmage Depths deck post-board, although it looks suspiciously like it is. It's really a black weenie deck that happens to run Hexmage Depths and draw it fairly frequently.

Obviously, if you don't come across / suspect either of those two, just run the maindeck and enjoy your bye.

As to things that stop the Hexmage combo: Jace, the Mind Sculptor is not among them unless you misplay. Alternately, assuming they have all these awesome answers like Swords and Maze of Ith and Echoing Truth, just go back to manaless dredge Game 3. Even if they use graveyard hate in Game 3 to steal the match, it's not like the plan of "lose to Leyline of the Void" would save you instead of this sideboard.

KevinTrudeau
08-25-2011, 01:09 PM
@berry- The reason why myself and others play Bauble lists is because we feel the deck has more than enough grinding ability and resilience to one-shot forms of grave hate (Crypt, Bog, etc.) without the Salvages and Bloodghasts. Since the deck can grind very well regardless of what you put in those eight or so slots, putting in draw spells to better the T3/4 combo matchup seems better than running even more resiliency. Plan B (grinding) can act as a function of Plan A (a quick Flame-kin Zealot finish), so why not implement FKZ if it's not going to significantly harm the grinding aspect (especially when you consider the fact that every draw spell, when played correctly, effectively mitigates all forms of countermagic) at all?

Again, you're arguing Iona>winning. You bring up somewhat of a point, FKZ doesn't absolutely guarantee victory since you do need ~five-six Zombies to go off, but the chances of such an occurrence happening are very, very low when you consider that you'll likely have dredged all four Bridges and all four Narcomoebas with your three Sphinx of Lost Truths (or River Kelpie). In the rare situations where FKZ doesn't get there that turn, you're likely winning next turn anyways and will have Mind Twisted any combo matchup with your four Cabal Therapy. If you insist on playing an Iona-esque target though, I recommend Sadistic Hypnotist.

I don't care if the majority of Manaless players run crap like Gigapede and play the ultra-resilient Bloodghast lists, it doesn't make them any more correct. I'd just like to point out that I top eighted a local tourney (granted, it was 1/5 the size of an Open, but Minneapolis has one of the ten or so best Legacy scenes in the country, and I don't doubt that I could have matched Rasuch's Swiss record that day if the tournament had been more than five rounds) three weeks before Mr. Rausch won his Open, so please don't educate me on the beginning philosophies of the deck.

@forum-

I might be able to attend a weekly tourney tonight. If I can, here's what I plan on running:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Swarm

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
2 Phantasmagorian

Feels just as fast as other Bauble lists (I'm averaging turn three or four kills), but has an additional two Nether Shadow for added resilience. Unless I can scrape together two LEDs from someone at the shop, I'm going to run this somewhat questionable sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Serum Powder (LED replacement)
4 Chancellor of the Annex/Mental Misstep
1 Angel of Despair
1 Terastodon

Morte
08-25-2011, 03:38 PM
Sorry for the noob question: what’s the purpose of Lion's Eye Diamond in the sideboard? When do you board it?

And why don’t you use it mainboard?

Thanks

ajfirecracker
08-25-2011, 06:39 PM
@berry- The reason why myself and others play Bauble lists is because we feel the deck has more than enough grinding ability and resilience to one-shot forms of grave hate (Crypt, Bog, etc.) without the Salvages and Bloodghasts. Since the deck can grind very well regardless of what you put in those eight or so slots, putting in draw spells to better the T3/4 combo matchup seems better than running even more resiliency. Plan B (grinding) can act as a function of Plan A (a quick Flame-kin Zealot finish), so why not implement FKZ if it's not going to significantly harm the grinding aspect (especially when you consider the fact that every draw spell, when played correctly, effectively mitigates all forms of countermagic) at all?

Again, you're arguing Iona>winning. You bring up somewhat of a point, FKZ doesn't absolutely guarantee victory since you do need ~five-six Zombies to go off, but the chances of such an occurrence happening are very, very low when you consider that you'll likely have dredged all four Bridges and all four Narcomoebas with your three Sphinx of Lost Truths (or River Kelpie). In the rare situations where FKZ doesn't get there that turn, you're likely winning next turn anyways and will have Mind Twisted any combo matchup with your four Cabal Therapy. If you insist on playing an Iona-esque target though, I recommend Sadistic Hypnotist.

I don't care if the majority of Manaless players run crap like Gigapede and play the ultra-resilient Bloodghast lists, it doesn't make them any more correct. I'd just like to point out that I top eighted a local tourney (granted, it was 1/5 the size of an Open, but Minneapolis has one of the ten or so best Legacy scenes in the country, and I don't doubt that I could have matched Rasuch's Swiss record that day if the tournament had been more than five rounds) three weeks before Mr. Rausch won his Open, so please don't educate me on the beginning philosophies of the deck.

@forum-

I might be able to attend a weekly tourney tonight. If I can, here's what I plan on running:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Swarm

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
2 Phantasmagorian

Feels just as fast as other Bauble lists (I'm averaging turn three or four kills), but has an additional two Nether Shadow for added resilience. Unless I can scrape together two LEDs from someone at the shop, I'm going to run this somewhat questionable sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Serum Powder (LED replacement)
4 Chancellor of the Annex/Mental Misstep
1 Angel of Despair
1 Terastodon

This seems slightly wrong. Mishra's Bauble is (imo) usually better than Urza's Bauble, since it lets you see a zone you don't already have 8 other ways to see.

Main-deck LED runs into Daze, Spell Pierce, and Force of Will, giving decks like Merfolk an extra turn or two against you, for 1-2 turns of goldfish speed on our side (if completely undisrupted, of course). Against decks that aren't looking to interact anyway, it gives you speed with relatively little drawback (although if your dredges whiff you're looking at a near-certain game loss). It's risky whether or not the opponent has anything to interact, extremely risky if they have one-shot hate to play against you, and probably just the best weapon we have against fast combo decks.

KevinTrudeau
08-25-2011, 11:37 PM
This seems slightly wrong. Mishra's Bauble is (imo) usually better than Urza's Bauble, since it lets you see a zone you don't already have 8 other ways to see.

I disagree, but it's a moot point anyway for two reasons:

A) The difference is largely insignificant.

B) I have a set of Urza's Baubles and only one physical copy of Mishra's Bauble. My store was out of them as well.

@forum- So, I went to that tournament and went 3-0 (6-1 in games), drawing in the last round for a final record of 3-0-1. I beat Enchantress, Junk, and Bant Aggro (2-1) running the list above, except for -1 Mishra's Bauble for +1 Phantasmagorian, -1 Serum Powder for +1 Child of Alara since I only had two SP, and Chancellor over Mental Misstep. Some notes:

-My opponents didn't know any better and put me on the draw in all game twos (I won all game ones), so take these results with a grain of salt.

-I steamrolled Enchantress with two turn three wins. Had the deck not had the enhanced capability of doing so (like by running the Salvage/Ghast package), I would have gotten smacked right back just as hard, since Enchantress is booty like that.

-I beat Leyline in game two of round two because my opponent didn't draw it in his opener. He still kept a pretty good hand though with a turn three Knight, planning on leaving up Bojuka Bog on turn four, but I once again won on turn three because of Sphinx dredging my library into Zealot. Game one I beat a Sworded (of the Fire and Ice variety) Batterskull token by attacking for 46 on turn four.

-Chancellor of the Annex is Real Deal Holyfield, and won game three of the Bant Aggro match. Game one was your average Dredge vs. Blue game. Game two was lost after I had some lackluster dredges, and he played a turn three GSZ into Scavenging Ooze with two Noble Hierarchs already out and untapped. Game three I boarded in the set of Chancellors and opened with one. He had Hierarch and Zenith again but had to wait a turn, and I took advantage by making ten Zombies on turn three with Sphinx (also in part to my slowrolled Street Wraith countering his sole RFG Ooze activation); I would have won that same turn, but I bricked on finding a second Dread Return after dredging for sixteen and had to settle for Mind Twisting him and hoping he didn't topdeck an out; he didn't.

-No sideboard card other than Chancellor in the final game of round three made a difference in any games.

-MVPs today were Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian, and of course the Sphinx and Zealot package.

-I never mulliganed.

-My lifetime match winning percentage against Leyline of the Void decks while running a non-anti-Leyline sideboard is now 33%.

jin
08-26-2011, 02:17 AM
I really dislike this line of reasoning. Who cares what the 'original point' of a deck or strategy was? Just play the best possible 75.


If you don't follow the 'original point' then the strategy has changed and the deck is no longer what is used to be. From the last tournament, the best possible 75 looks like this:

Creatures
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

Basic Lands
1 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

KevinTrudeau
08-26-2011, 07:42 AM
If you don't follow the 'original point' then the strategy has changed and the deck is no longer what is used to be.

I'll say it again since it appears you ignored me the first time around- I top eighted a tournament with a Probe list three weeks before Mr. Rausch won that Open, proving that the 'original point' of the deck isn't as clear as you make it out to be. Both the theoretical examples that I posted above and the concrete example of the small tournament report I just wrote disagree with the Bloodghast package being better for the deck in place of a Bauble package. Of course, this shouldn't matter anyway because the notion that it's bad to deviate from a deck's original list is just completely illogical.

If you really want to see the original version of the deck, created by Mr. Alexander Lapping, click here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22094_Deck_Tech_Manaless_Dredge_With_Alexander_Lapping.html). You'll see that there aren't any Bloodghasts and that there are four Gitaxian Probes in the sideboard. So, in reality, Probe lists were around before Bloodghast lists.

ajfirecracker
08-26-2011, 08:41 AM
I'll say it again since it appears you ignored me the first time around- I top eighted a tournament with a Probe list three weeks before Mr. Rausch won that Open, proving that the 'original point' of the deck isn't as clear as you make it out to be. Both the theoretical examples that I posted above and the concrete example of the small tournament report I just wrote disagree with the Bloodghast package being better for the deck in place of a Bauble package. Of course, this shouldn't matter anyway because the notion that it's bad to deviate from a deck's original list is just completely illogical.

If you really want to see the original version of the deck, created by Mr. Alexander Lapping, click here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22094_Deck_Tech_Manaless_Dredge_With_Alexander_Lapping.html). You'll see that there aren't any Bloodghasts and that there are four Gitaxian Probes in the sideboard. So, in reality, Probe lists were around before Bloodghast lists.

Actually, here's the earliest reference to the deck I'm aware of: this forum post by me a week before SCG Denver (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6826962&postcount=708), but I definitely don't believe that I was the first to come up with the idea. In any case, by the time Alexander Lapping won, many of the posters on that thread had manaless builds that were clearly superior to his (such as taking my initial sketch and moving Dread Return to the main-deck, which was the immediately obvious direction).

One of the other posters at some point talked about an old MTGO Classic version that ran Deep Analysis, Lion's Eye Diamond, Serum Powder, and Cephalid Coliseum as 4-ofs, but was otherwise entirely manaless. He said that this deck did very well for a season, so it could be that that's the oldest instance of (essentially) manaless dredge.

jin
08-26-2011, 08:34 PM
I'll say it again since it appears you ignored me the first time around- I top eighted a tournament with a Probe list three weeks before Mr. Rausch won that Open, proving that the 'original point' of the deck isn't as clear as you make it out to be. Both the theoretical examples that I posted above and the concrete example of the small tournament report I just wrote disagree with the Bloodghast package being better for the deck in place of a Bauble package. Of course, this shouldn't matter anyway because the notion that it's bad to deviate from a deck's original list is just completely illogical.

If you really want to see the original version of the deck, created by Mr. Alexander Lapping, click here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22094_Deck_Tech_Manaless_Dredge_With_Alexander_Lapping.html). You'll see that there aren't any Bloodghasts and that there are four Gitaxian Probes in the sideboard. So, in reality, Probe lists were around before Bloodghast lists.

No one's doubting that someone played the list before Rausch. Also, no one said that deviating from the a certain list is bad. No change is illogical and I'm NOT a supporter of that. So I obviously didn't ignore anything.

My point was deviating too far away from the main idea is bad. I never said we should play his 75 and I never said that change in a decklist is bad. To me, it just makes no sense to change 16 cards of a very solid deck. You don't see Goblins or Merfolk shifting around 16 cards at a time. They move 4 cards at a time or 8 cards at a time. Their strategies generally stay the same.

That said, I'm actually a supporter of Gritaxian Probe, since I always seem to get my Cabal Therapies misstepped, but I really don't see a point in playing 4 probes + 8 baubles. At that point, you might as well just played Mana Dredge.

ajfirecracker
08-27-2011, 01:17 AM
My point was deviating too far away from the main idea is bad. I never said we should play his 75 and I never said that change in a decklist is bad. To me, it just makes no sense to change 16 cards of a very solid deck. You don't see Goblins or Merfolk shifting around 16 cards at a time. They move 4 cards at a time or 8 cards at a time. Their strategies generally stay the same.

I think the lists I've come up with could easily be a stable point for the archetype. I don't really think there's a need to take one of my lists and change out 16 cards back and forth. Caveat: I think transformational sideboarding can be extremely effective generally and in this archetype in particular.


That said, I'm actually a supporter of Gritaxian Probe, since I always seem to get my Cabal Therapies misstepped, but I really don't see a point in playing 4 probes + 8 baubles. At that point, you might as well just played Mana Dredge.

Mana Dredge isn't a bad deck. It's in the Deck to Beat section, so doing something similar to it is certainly not going to hurt your chances to win, all else equal. Even with the Baubles, though, the Manaless build has a large number of key differences compared to Mana Dredge. Mostly, it's much more consistent (even with the Baubles) and much more resilient (to most hate) at a slight speed cost. All adding the Baubles does is tweak the ratios of speed, resiliency, and consistency slightly.

jin
08-27-2011, 07:22 AM
I think the lists I've come up with could easily be a stable point for the archetype. I don't really think there's a need to take one of my lists and change out 16 cards back and forth. Caveat: I think transformational sideboarding can be extremely effective generally and in this archetype in particular.

When I said 16 cards, I meant the inclusion of 4 probes, 8 baubles, and other new innovative tech people are coming up with. I mean the majority of you haven't decided on a 'core' while some have gone on to discuss speeding it up without really understanding the purpose of being manaless.

I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...


Mana Dredge isn't a bad deck. It's in the Deck to Beat section, so doing something similar to it is certainly not going to hurt your chances to win, all else equal. Even with the Baubles, though, the Manaless build has a large number of key differences compared to Mana Dredge. Mostly, it's much more consistent (even with the Baubles) and much more resilient (to most hate) at a slight speed cost. All adding the Baubles does is tweak the ratios of speed, resiliency, and consistency slightly.

Well they also have a huge advantage in taht they have the proper tools to fight Enchantment-based graveyard hate without having to move around more than 8 cards, which is nice. With the inclusion of phantasmagorian in their deck.. and some people maindecking Firestorm, I don't think that they are struggling as much against misstep now. But I do like how Manaless Ichorid plays more dredgers. That's just good fun.

ajfirecracker
08-27-2011, 10:13 AM
When I said 16 cards, I meant the inclusion of 4 probes, 8 baubles, and other new innovative tech people are coming up with. I mean the majority of you haven't decided on a 'core' while some have gone on to discuss speeding it up without really understanding the purpose of being manaless.

The point of being manaless is to dodge counterspells and other tempo plays in a blue-dominated metagame. This goal is impaired little to not-at-all by running Gitaxaian Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, as counterspells are extremely ineffective at stopping these lines of play for a simple reason: You don't want the cantrip unless you have a dredger in the graveyard. If you have the dredger and they counter your Bauble (or, more likely, Probe, as it's the much more powerful spell) simply pass the turn, dredge on your next draw step, look at your hand, and realize it's currently got 8 cards.


I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...

Definitely not me. I think Rausch's mainboard is too creature-heavy and grindy (although in all fairness my initial builds I posted on the other forum were fairly similar). I think if you can run any meaningful sideboard whatsoever, you have to warp the deck significantly in response. So with the Aggro/Depths plan, you want to max out on cantrips and Dakmor Salvage in the main-deck, and therefore also Bloodghast. It's also important with a transformational sideboard that you actually win the first game, so having more explosive plays like 3x River Kelpie, 1x Flame-Kin Zealot 4 Dread Return becomes a necessity as well.

Alternately, if you have a strong anti-combo sideboard (I think these are the only two sideboards currently worth running), you probably want to maximize wins against everything else with the main-deck and be fairly grindy.

As to whether or not Dread Return is something worth building around, I certainly think it is, and Rausch clearly agreed. He ran 4 in the main-deck, 2 dedicated targets, and the ability to go up to a million targets post-board (I think he typically sided in 3 at SCG Cinci). His deck is fairly grindy pre-board but more or less just goes Reanimator post-board, hoping to use his absurdly large number of creatures and targets to get lucky and get an early Dread Return (alternately, just be Dredge for the win). The problem I have with this is that it doesn't really beat much of anything he can't beat with his main-deck, and even if it did, it doesn't actually change his strategic posture at all. He's still playing the exact same strategy post-board, just a bit more aggressively.


Well they also have a huge advantage in taht they have the proper tools to fight Enchantment-based graveyard hate without having to move around more than 8 cards, which is nice. With the inclusion of phantasmagorian in their deck.. and some people maindecking Firestorm, I don't think that they are struggling as much against misstep now. But I do like how Manaless Ichorid plays more dredgers. That's just good fun.

They don't really. There are many Mana lists that perform running some number of Ancient Grudge and little to no anti-enchantment cards sideboard.

The raw consistency of manaless is much, much higher in my opinion. We will typically have a 90% chance of having a keepable opening 7, and I would say 30%+ of having a god-hand (i.e. a Golgari Grave-Troll or Stinkweed Imp with cantrips) while their god-hand probability is much lower, maybe 15-20% (i.e. Discard dork, land, dredger, draw spell) and falls apart much more easily.

As to the whole "Thoughtseize is a Time Walk" thing: Occasionally Mana Dredge will simply be impervious to Thoughtseize with a super stacked hand, but usually Thoughtsieze (and even Duress) is a single/double Time Stretch. It being a Time Walk against us is actually an upgrade. Alternately, you can compare this to other combo decks, where Thoughtseize varies from "target player does nothing this game" (Hive Mind) to "target player plays some 1/1's for 1 but otherwise does nothing this game" (Combo Elves) to roughly Time Walk (ANT and friends) to us, where it's a Time Walk if it comes down Turn 1, but otherwise is almost entirely blank.

KevinTrudeau
08-27-2011, 03:45 PM
I'd like to pose a question to all Bauble demurrers: does the maindeck need to attain ultra-resiliency in game one when there's no grave hate? Doesn't it have enough grinding capability already?


I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...

I've seen this line of thought before (I believe it was Final Fortune), and it certainly intrigues me. Take the list I'm currently running (you can find it a page back, but to summarize, it's distinguishable from other Bauble lists by its 4 Nether Shadow, 2 Phantasmagorian, and 2 Mishra's Bauble). If you wanted to run a resiliency package, the sideboard plan could look something like this:

1 Angel of Despair
1 Terastodon

The Dread Return targets (note that the Sphinx/Kelpie/FKZ package in the main ups the effectiveness of these guys a lot in crafting a 'big turn' versus something like 43 Lands) that come in versus prison or lock decks, or for whatever you might feel like.

4 Bloodghast
3 Dakmor Salvage

The anti-Crypt, anti-Bog package. Comes in for the six Baubles and another card to beef up resiliency. Probably better than Leyline of Sanctity, actually, for what it aims to accomplish, although it does take up seven slots and isn't as multifaceted.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mishra's Bauble

The anti-fast combo package. Comes in for 2 Phantasmagorian and 4 Shambling Shell (or Nether Shadow). Aims to up the chances of winning on turn 2 mightily or at least cast Cabal Therapy on turn two by casting LED on the first turn, subsequently casting any draw spells/cycling Street Wraith, and then cracking LED in response to bin your dredger(s). You can safely aggressively mulligan to six with this configuration, at least by my estimation.


The point of being manaless is to dodge counterspells and other tempo plays in a blue-dominated metagame. This goal is impaired little to not-at-all by running Gitaxaian Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, as counterspells are extremely ineffective at stopping these lines of play for a simple reason: You don't want the cantrip unless you have a dredger in the graveyard. If you have the dredger and they counter your Bauble (or, more likely, Probe, as it's the much more powerful spell) simply pass the turn, dredge on your next draw step, look at your hand, and realize it's currently got 8 cards

This or something similar should definitely be on the front page of this thread to prevent potential misconceptions of the Bauble versions of the deck. The draw spells really don't weaken the deck at all versus countermagic when played correctly.

Also, out of curiosity, what is your current full anti-fast combo sideboard, and what are you boarding out for it? The above config for me has been awesome in goldfishing, and that's without even Leyline of Sanctity or Serum Powder or whatever in place of sacrificial creatures 9-12 (Nether Shadow in this case, Bloodghast otherwise) postboard.

Final Fortune
08-28-2011, 04:51 AM
I'd like to pose a question to all Bauble demurrers: does the maindeck need to attain ultra-resiliency in game one when there's no grave hate? Doesn't it have enough grinding capability already? .

It is and it always has been, even LED Dredge and LEDless Dredge were and are capable of beating aggro-control and control with DDD game 1 followed by a supporting land + draw spell. The real difference between those Dredge decks and this Dredge deck is that Manaless Dredge replaces lands for more business and replaces draw spells with more cost efficient, but less effective cantrips. The end result is other Dredge decks are faster while this Dredge deck is more consistent game 1 because even tho' this Dredge deck doesn't Dredge as much off cantrips, the threat density is higher from replacing lands with business so the quality of those Dredges are better.

The real philosophy argument behind LED Dredge, LEDless Dredge, MTGO Classic Dredge (the list I advocated) and Manaless Dredge is whether or not lands and the utility of cards like Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Firestorm, Ancient Grudge and Chain of Vapor vs. hate is actually better than overloading your deck with Nether Shadow, Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage, Shambling Shell and Phantasmagorian and just powering thru' hate when your opponent draws it and playing a much stronger deck without anti-hate and with additional business when he doesn't draw it.

For me, not playing the 16 cantrip version if you are playing Manaless Dredge is wrong, from a meta stand point, because the marginal utility of Nether Shadow, Gigapede or certain Dredge Return targets is much lower versus aggro-control and control than speed is vs. everything. Even traditional Dredge staples like Putrid Imp need to be debated when your capable of playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian MD with absolutely no drawbacks vs. hate and can SB in to more resilient outlets game 1. In the end, I think focusing on increasing the deck's gold fish and just relying on resiliency vs Tormod's Crypt esq hate and scooping to Leyline of the Void is what's going to put you into the brackets. Whether or not that's the 16 cantrip list, the Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis list or some kind of mana Dredge with Breakthrough I don't really know. There are a lot of MD iterations to choose from, but the one thing I am certain of is that your deck should look as much as Rausch's list game 2 as you can get it.

berry
08-28-2011, 07:15 AM
Hey, guys! I've top 3'd a weekly ~20 man tournament 3 weeks in a row! Let's all listen to me!

Seriously, though...

@FF:

From a meta standpoint, combo decks is a ridicilously tiny part of the metagame and Cabals + Iona can usually ruin Hive Minds plan just enough.


@KT:

Assuming Shambling Swarm is supposed to be Shambling Shell I really DO like your latest list, after reading about your sideboard-choices.

I feel like that is a good amount of cyclers and that the grindyness in the SB is a great choice. I do NOT like just playing 2 Phantasmagorian since he literally is THE best way to go crazy game 1, AND he helps you fight through relics game 2-3.

I will try out a build running a few (~6) Bauble's & a playset of probes for game 1 - removing gigapede totally (I think I'll feel this loss, but let's see) & putting the dakmor + bloodghast-package in the board, definitely interesting!

Just a few questions:

1. To you not running a grindy SB-package in your Bauble-lists, how does this list hold out to Relics? It just feels like it could get hurt. Also; do they keep counterspells in?

2. I can see the point of running manaless to get around Mental Misstep, etc, but still wanting a quick game 1... But what do you actually do against decks that can do something against this? Getting your DR countered, i.e.? I guess the list is still grindy enough to just keep going.

I've settled on a list close to KT's to try and be open-minded and try this out and see how it rolls in this wednesdays weekly legacy-tournament:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
3 Phantasmagorian

SB:

3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (yes, I still like her)
1 DR-target
1 DR-target

Contagion left out since I never see Jailers in my store. I'd love you Bauble-players opinion on this, and try and be open minded and not go "grind G2 sucks!".

ajfirecracker
08-28-2011, 11:47 AM
Hey, guys! I've top 3'd a weekly ~20 man tournament 3 weeks in a row! Let's all listen to me!

Seriously, though...

@FF:

From a meta standpoint, combo decks is a ridicilously tiny part of the metagame and Cabals + Iona can usually ruin Hive Minds plan just enough.


@KT:

Assuming Shambling Swarm is supposed to be Shambling Shell I really DO like your latest list, after reading about your sideboard-choices.

I feel like that is a good amount of cyclers and that the grindyness in the SB is a great choice. I do NOT like just playing 2 Phantasmagorian since he literally is THE best way to go crazy game 1, AND he helps you fight through relics game 2-3.

I will try out a build running a few (~6) Bauble's & a playset of probes for game 1 - removing gigapede totally (I think I'll feel this loss, but let's see) & putting the dakmor + bloodghast-package in the board, definitely interesting!

Just a few questions:

1. To you not running a grindy SB-package in your Bauble-lists, how does this list hold out to Relics? It just feels like it could get hurt. Also; do they keep counterspells in?

2. I can see the point of running manaless to get around Mental Misstep, etc, but still wanting a quick game 1... But what do you actually do against decks that can do something against this? Getting your DR countered, i.e.? I guess the list is still grindy enough to just keep going.

I've settled on a list close to KT's to try and be open-minded and try this out and see how it rolls in this wednesdays weekly legacy-tournament:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
3 Phantasmagorian

SB:

3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (yes, I still like her)
1 DR-target
1 DR-target

Contagion left out since I never see Jailers in my store. I'd love you Bauble-players opinion on this, and try and be open minded and not go "grind G2 sucks!".

Grinding G2 sucks.

No, not really. It is probably less good than just next-leveling the hate with Marit Lage, but it's certainly acceptable if a lot of people are playing decks you can just grind out.

My argument against Phantasmagorian is that he can fill one of two roles, one of which is actually subtly bad:
1) He can be a creature-generation engine with Nether Shadow and (to a lesser extent) Bloodghast. In this role, you always want to max out on Phantasmagorian, and your deck feels really awkward until you get 1 or sometimes even 2 online. I think these builds rely too much on Phantasmagorian, as the proper number to run is probably around 6 because of how important he is to your plan, but you can also flood out on the 4 you're allowed.
2) He can be a mid-combo assist, allowing you to get a shot of resources or loop 2 Phantastagorians together to have an actual engine. In this role, I think you only need 2, maybe 3 in the deck. I definitely win games where he fills this role and I only use one Phantasmagorian card all game (say, with a double/triple discard in the middle of drawing 8 cards with River Kelpie).

As to Relic of Progenitus: I typically run all 16 free cantrips, and all 16 of them play through Relic. I also typically run some number of Phantasmagorian (the Hexmage list doesn't have room, but my other lists all run at least the first two). Every one of those cards plays through Relic. Gitaxian Probe, for example, is entirely capable of getting you started through a Relic. (T1 Discard anything, T2 cast Gitaxian Probe, then discard a dredger. Due to discard happening in Cleanup, this will work.)


Also, out of curiosity, what is your current full anti-fast combo sideboard, and what are you boarding out for it? The above config for me has been awesome in goldfishing, and that's without even Leyline of Sanctity or Serum Powder or whatever in place of sacrificial creatures 9-12 (Nether Shadow in this case, Bloodghast otherwise) postboard.

I've been focused on the Marit Lage plan, but I would say that my current anti-fast combo plan looks like this:

Maindeck:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 River Kelpie

Sideboard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Realm Razer
1 Child of Alara

This list reflects a lot of my personal beliefs about dredge (like the realization that Realm Razer is probably just the best creature to run in the second blow-everything-up slot, or the first Iona, Shield of Emeria slot. No mana is a lot like Iona naming every color; since Iona only names 1 color you usually need to Therapy out possible lines of play before you drop her, which is not any worse in the case of Realm Razer.) It also reflects the realization that a bunch of 1-of Dread Return targets in the sideboard are extremely well supported by a bunch of draw creatures in the main, but still just aren't worth running.

As to the anti-combo parts of the sideboard: I think Lion's Eye Diamond and a million cantrips is the way to go, and I've had some success using Unmask in that slot, but LED is basically a strict upgrade.
Chancellor of the Annex is unexciting but being able to board up to a million Dread Return targets that just win the game against Tendrils, and actually do something from the opening hand, is pretty great.

Mindbreak Trap has some dissynergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, but is still probably just better than Leyline of Sanctity, which doesn't do a lot even when you get it in your opening hand. Additionally, having free countermagic shuts off Ill-Gotten Gains as a line of play, which is huge when you consider that they'd much rather go for that than risk it with Ad Nauseam.

Darklingske
08-30-2011, 05:03 AM
Hey guys,
last sunday I paticipated in a local tourney with 77 attending. My list I played:
4 GGT
4 SImp
4 GThug
4 SShell
4 Ichi
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phanta
4 Narco
2 Sphinx
1 iona
1 FKZ
1 Woodfall P
4 DR
4 Cabal
4 Probe
4 StreetWraith
4 Bridge
3 Urza's Bauble
SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Dryad Arbor
3 Reverent Silence
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon

Pretty stock list, but not the SB. I desided on that bunch of cards because last tourney I lost 2 matches against Leyline, costing me top 8.
Quick report:
R1: 2-0 against Zoo
He was fast, but I was just 1 turn quicker in both games. (-Woodfall, + Archon G2)
R2: 0-2 against reanimator.
It took quit a while before he resolved an Elesh Norn in the first game. Elesh = GG for us, and the dredges were not that good. G2 he went for Elesh on T3 & it was over for me. (no boarding)
R3: 2-1 against mono R Burn.
G1 I was at 4 when I ate his brains. G2 I was burned to death on T4. G3 I put Leyline in game and that was it for him. Only 8 creatures in his deck are not enough to race us. (-3 Bauble, -1 Woodfall, +4 Leyline)
R4: 2-0 against BUGstill
I just raced him (not that difficult with almost no creatures on his side) with Ichi & Shadows in both games. (No boarding)
R5: 2-1 against WR Burn
G1 I was at 4, when my zombies ate him. G2 I resolved an Iona, only to see it dissapear through an PtE (big surprise for me, since I didn't see a White land G1) and following a fiery death for me. G3 Leyline was GG for him. (Boarding as R3)
R6: 2-0 against Bant
G1 I raced a Progenitus. G2 he was manascrewed and got run over by zombies.
R7: ID with Hivemind
And top 8 is locked!!
Quarters: 2-0 against Hivemind (opponent from R7)
Both games I destroyed him on T4 with DR on Woodfall (target an Island), sac Woodfall for Cabal (target an Island again), DR Iona on Blue, DR Sphinx, DR FKZ.
Semi: 2-0 against NORug
This is an easy MU, and I just raced him in both games.
Finals: Split against Tha Gate. At this time it already was 22hr and we were both pretty hungry and just split the prices.
It was an exciting day and i had lots of fun. manaless Dredge, I luv U :)

Final Fortune
08-30-2011, 06:11 AM
For people running 8 Baubles, I think you should replace them with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis even if you don't run Serum Powder and Cephalid Coliseum, because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand increases the speed of your deck G1 by either auto-Dredging 8 cards or "slow rolling" by Dredging into Deep Analysis and then playing LED. LED is also the only card in Manaless Dredge, besides Serum Powder, that allows the deck to mulligan aggressively for speed vs. decks that'll outrace the Bauble lists and doesn't allow decks to force you to play game 2 and start with +1 cards in hand without the possibility you'll just explode out of the gate.

For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.

Final Fortune
08-30-2011, 06:12 AM
For people running 8 Baubles, I think you should replace them with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis even if you don't run Serum Powder and Cephalid Coliseum, because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand increases the speed of your deck G1 by either auto-Dredging 8 cards or "slow rolling" by Dredging into Deep Analysis and then playing LED. LED is also the only card in Manaless Dredge, besides Serum Powder, that allows the deck to mulligan aggressively for speed vs. decks that'll outrace the Bauble lists and doesn't allow decks to force you to play game 2 and start with +1 cards in hand without the possibility you'll just explode out of the gate.

For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.