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Dark Ritual
08-13-2011, 01:26 PM
Dragonstorm 2011

Dragonstorm is a combo deck that obviously revolves around getting to 9 mana hopefully after a few ritual spells are cast to win the game by fetching for 3 bogardan hellkite's and karrthus, tyrant of jund to swing in for the win that turn. Or, if the opponent is at 20 or less life you can just nab 4 hellkite's and kill them where they stand. But without further ado, a decklist.

Lands 21
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Calciform Pools
2 Shivan Reef
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Halimar Depths

Accel 12
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Bloom

Digging for the Combo 16
4 See Beyond
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Peer Through Depths

Creatures 4
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Bogardan Hellkite

Win 4
4 Dragonstorm

Countermagic 4
4 Remand

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
4 Gigadrowse
3 Repeal
2 Wipe Away


This is the skeleton for dragonstorm IMO and serves as a starting point. What you're trying to do is simple. Get a dragonstorm and cast it, because once you cast dragonstorm you generally win with all these big dudes.

The Maindeck

4 Dragonstorm - You want at least one each game. Sometimes 2. Therefore, this is a 4 of.

4 Ponder/Preordain/Peer Through Depths - Dig for either dragonstorm itself or rituals to fuel it. Not much explanation needed.

4 Rite of Flame, 4 Seething Song, 4 Lotus Bloom - Best mana accelerants in red. Ideally you'll open every turn one with a suspended lotus so that on turn 4 you explode. Again, not much explanation needed.

4 Remand - The ideal protection. Also allows you semi control over the stack. If the opponent trys to say mana leak seething song or rite of flame and you don't have the mana to pay and then cast dragonstorm afterwards, you can remand your own spell and just go off the next turn or this turn if you draw a really spicy card off of remand's cantrip ability. Also acts as a stall against aggro decks; it basically reads time walk against aggro if they have no creatures on board to swing with.

4 Bogardan hellkite - Can be cast from hand if you lack dragonstorm to crush aggro decks in their tracks due to his dealing 5 divided as you choose among their creatures and he's a 5/5 flyer himself so it's hard for them to profitably swing afterwards, especially seeing as how you took down at least 2 of their dudes with the 5 damage ability. His main use though is to be nabbed with dragonstorm to send 5 to their dome generally or amongst their creatures.

2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund - Useful with bogardan hellkite in that if you get only 3 copies of d.storm total you get 2 hellkites, dome the opponent and their creatures for 10, then give all your creatures haste to swing in FTW.

4 See Beyond - Quite useful at digging and is the closest thing to brainstorm in the format. Usually you draw 2 cards then shuffle a dragon back into the library namely karrthus since he is literally the worst draw this deck has, since you can't cast him with your lands no instead you need 2 lotus blooms in play and a land that produces red to actually cast him but usually that means you're losing. But yeah again this is meant to dig for the combo while shuffling redundant combo pieces back in.

Manabase - 4 Steam vents since we're UR. 4 Scalding tarns since again we're UR and these fetch for basics if need be. Calciform pools/other charge counter lands are useful for building up mana if you have nothing better to do or you need to get up to 9 mana for dragonstorm. Halimar depths is just digging for the combo. Shivan reef is useful at producing both red and blue mana so it's included as a 2 of to colorfix us. Basics are there so ghost quarter doesn't become strip mine and so that we can play around tectonic edge if we need to usually we don't need to.

Sideboard

4 Leyline of Sanctity - Good against grapeshot combo and discard. Semi useful against aggro deck's that pack lots of burn as well but the plan there is to usually race.

2 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - King against control decks. When you flash this in on their end of turn step and it resolves you win the game pretty much. No more mindbreak trap or countermagic for them. Only a 2 of because you don't want multiples and it's relatively easy to find with all the cantrips and search in here.

4 Gigadrowse - Again, this is really good against control decks. You play it on their EoT step, tapping down all their mana sources and they can't do anything about it. The only hope they have after you gigadrowse all their lands is to have multiple mindbreak traps in hand

3 Repeal - Quite good against aggro. It cantrips, and it slows them down. Also used to bounce hatebears like canonist, gaddock teeg, and meddling mage.

2 Wipe Away - Bounce for annoying permanents that literally can't be countered in this format due to counterbalance not being a contender due to the axing of sensei's divining top.

Discuss.

lorddotm
08-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Your list doesn't actually have Dragonstorm in it..

2Rach
08-13-2011, 02:02 PM
Your list doesn't actually have Dragonstorm in it..
They'll never expect it!

Pact of Negation and Gitaxian Probe should probably be here somewhere. Oh, and Dragonstorm.

Jeff Kruchkow
08-13-2011, 02:17 PM
-2 land -1 karrthus -1 hellkite

+4 dragonstorm

Probe seems worse than the rest of your dig. Maybe if we cut down on lands and replace remand with pact?

rupus
08-13-2011, 02:31 PM
I would play Gigadrowse main. It is so useful and never dead. If rapes control, stalls vs aggro and annoys other combo decks. No reason not to play 2 or 3 main, IMO. See beyond is by far the worst spell in that list. I would mind cutting all 4 for maybe 3 Gigadrowse and 1 something else (Gitaxian Probe maybe?). Also for everyone interested in this deck you should check out the video of Nassif vs Mihara at worlds 2006. Alexander Shearer posted it on ChannelFireball here (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/this-week-in-development-five-to-watch/). It's a good watch regardless but Mihara is playing what appears to be an awful matchup and manages to take it by not overextending and playing dragons one at a time. It might not give you much information on actually playing the deck but there's some good lessons to be learned in it.

264505
08-13-2011, 04:48 PM
@2rach-I did here a story from Dstorm in standard back in the day. There was a guy that cut the dragons to run extra dig cards and it wasnt until the finals that someone asked him to show the kill and he scooped.

I was planning on running a straight UR Dragonstorm list. I think the mana is going to be much more consistent. My list:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Cascade Bluffs
1 Misty Rainforest
6 Island
3 Mountain

4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Hunted Dragon
1 Grozoth

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe (may become preordain, haven't tested much)
4 Dragonstorm
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Remand
3 Gigadrowse

Pretty standard UR list, Grozoth can transmute for Dragonstorm. Gigadrowse protects. Probe makes sure the coast is clear, but preordain might be better to dig a little deeper. The board is still up for discussion. Firespout seems like it would be good vs aggro.

On another note, Dragonstorm won a lot of games by hard casting dragons on turn 3 or 4 instead of storming out. I don't see that happening with Karrthus in the OPs list.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the best secondary dual option is far and away the filter lands as they can give you UU when you 'drowse and still make red mana for the combo.

Dark Ritual
08-14-2011, 01:55 AM
Yeah I guess I did leave out dragonstorm's in the original list. The list has been updated; I cut a mountain, a ponder, a bogardan hellkite, and a karrthus for 4 dragonstorm.

Why run gitaxian probe exactly? What are we trying to do here, we're trying to find dragonstorm + rituals and cast dragonstorm for lethal. Probe just cantrips and is a weak card to try to find a copy of dragonstorm or a ritual when you stack it up against cards like ponder and preordain.

Gigadrowse in the main isn't needed IMO. You can try running it main sure but it's really only good against control. Based on the bannings, it looks like the format will be dominated by aggro decks. Against aggro you just race them via all the cantrips in the deck to find dragonstorm and rituals. Aggro is cold to the combo of make a bunch of mana and kill you plan. If you really need to stall against aggro, remand a creature of their's on turn 2. And as an added bonus you get to draw a card off of it, quite a powerful ability when it's tacked onto a 2 mana counterspell if you ask me.

On cascade bluffs. Cascade bluffs doesn't help you if you don't have another colored source while shivan reef is good at colorfixing no matter what unless you're really low on life. It's personal preference really but ATM I prefer shivan reef over cascade bluffs.

Wow grozoth is techy. Basically acts as dragonstorm #5 in here forgot that guy even had transmute.

On pact of negation. It is a solid protection spell that at least deserves some spots in the SB at the very least if not maindeck. It even counters mindbreak trap, while remand doesn't nor does gigadrowse. The question is what to cut. Remand is quite powerful for it's stall ability and because making a mana leak cost 2UU makes mana leak look terribad. It could be that we have too much dig spells so we could possibly trim a little bit off like -2 peer through depths and -1 preordain for 3 pact's.

NesretepNoj
08-14-2011, 05:58 AM
I've made a similar thread on a Danish magic site. This is the list of possible inclusions that came to my mind:

RED
Dragonstorm
Empty the Warrens
Form of the Dragon
Bogardan Hellkite
Simian Spirit Guide
Desperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Rite of Flame
Magma Jet
Lightning Bolt

BLUE
Ponder
Preordain
Peer Through Depths
Telling Time
Gitaxian Probe
Dispel
Pact of Negation
Slithermuse
Spell Pierce
See Beyond
Grozoth
Remand

BLACK
Duress
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Infernal Tutor
Spoils of the Vault
Plunge into Darkness

COLORLESS
Lotus Bloom

LANDS
Steam Vents
Watery Grave
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Island
Mountain
Swamp
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass

I know this doesn't directly add anything to the deck, but it might inspire a bit.

4eak
08-14-2011, 04:09 PM
There seems to me to be two approaches. One plays like Solidarity, which attempts to stall using Remand/Gigadrowse/Repeal, buying enough time to find and build your ramp. The other option seems to be the Charbelcher-like route. Instead of trying to stall, you go off as soon as possible - no protection (Storm, in some sense, has its own built-in protection). Permission overall looks much worse in this format, and that seems to open up the Charbelcher style.

The Charbelcher, Go for the Throat type combo might look something like this:

// Lands - 19
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Shivan Reef
1 Halimar Depths

// Mana Acceleration - 16
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// Win Con Package - 13
4 Dragonstorm
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Empty the Warrens

// Card Quality - 12
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Preordain
4 Ponder

NukeMoose
08-14-2011, 07:03 PM
I'm thinking Manamorphose could have a place in the deck but I'm uncertain what you would want to cut for it. It fuels EtW like nothing else and filters mana making turn 2 double cantrip easier while still providing gas to make a storm win as turns go by.

264505
08-16-2011, 12:05 AM
There seems to me to be two approaches. One plays like Solidarity, which attempts to stall using Remand/Gigadrowse/Repeal, buying enough time to find and build your ramp. The other option seems to be the Charbelcher-like route. Instead of trying to stall, you go off as soon as possible - no protection (Storm, in some sense, has its own built-in protection). Permission overall looks much worse in this format, and that seems to open up the Charbelcher style.

The Charbelcher, Go for the Throat type combo might look something like this:

// Lands - 19
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Shivan Reef
1 Halimar Depths

// Mana Acceleration - 16
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// Win Con Package - 13
4 Dragonstorm
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Empty the Warrens

// Card Quality - 12
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Preordain
4 Ponder

I still don't love playing Karrthus in a deck with no way to hard cast him. One of the 2 or 3 really viable control archetypes run Martyr of Sands and can also run Proclamation of Rebirth. Being able to hard cast dragons to bait WoGs is what allowed Makihito Mihara to beat Gabriel Nassif at Worlds in 2006. (video of the match here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/this-week-in-development-five-to-watch/).

Edit: You can also take a page out of Pat Chapin's Worlds 2007 list and run Ignite Memories as well. I think it might be a better win-con than EtW depending on how you want to take the deck.

jjjoness'
08-16-2011, 05:20 AM
Karrthus is MVP in the Deck. Against aggro and 12 post you face lethal on turn 4 often enough, so you have to go off with storm 3.

Also I don't know how viable control even is, the format seems to be 50% 12Post, 30% Zoo/Sligh, 10% Combo Abominations like Hive Mind and some random other decks. Only my experience from testing two days straight on cockatrice.

My list atm.:


4 Dragonstorm
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ponder
4 Remand
4 Preordain
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Gigadrowse
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Dreadship Reef
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
6 Island
1 Mountain
2 See Beyond

SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 Repeal
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 4 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Shadow of Doubt
SB: 1 Gigadrowse

Pretty standard. Not sure if See Beyond should be Peer Through Depths though.

Some notes on the sideboard:
Volcanic Fallout is against Teeg and Canonist, also quite good against SOME Zoo lists.
However I feel like 3 damage is sooo much better most of the time, but instant speed and uncounterable is key here.

Firespout is just an additional sweeper. Better against non-hatebear-creatures, since it can take out goyf on occasion and kills Nacatl.

Not sure what Repeal is really for, I never sided it in. May become some artifact hate, since I ran into several 12 Post lists with Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst and Phyrexian Metamorph. Shattering Spree comes to Mind.

The additional Gigadrowse is against 12 Post and controlish decks, and it is awesome.

Blood Moon slows down 12Post considerably and gives you time to win. I'm not sure if Magus of the Moon wouldn't be better. It can't be dealt with by Pridemage which I've seen main in 12Post quite often. On the other hand Moon is cool against lots of zooish and fishy decks, too, which tend to run Lightning Bolts and the like.

I removed Shadow of Doubt initially, since there isn't that much tutoring around after all. But I realized it can serve as a timewalk so often, it's not even funny. Against 12Post you can counter Primeval Titan triggers, and Eye of Ugin searching. The greenish builts of 12Post rely on Primeval Titan quite heavily and between Gigadrowse, Remand and Shadow of Doubt you have 10 ways of buying time, while 6 of them also cantrip. Also it is strong against most of the combodecks out there. Still a slot open for debate.


Edit..And here is proof why Karrthus is awesome. I just got hit by Neo Cranial Extraction Thingy on Hellkites, then Drew Karrthus, cast it off Reef and Bloom and won the game :D. Epic

264505
08-16-2011, 12:36 PM
Karrthus is MVP in the Deck. Against aggro and 12 post you face lethal on turn 4 often enough, so you have to go off with storm 3.

Also I don't know how viable control even is, the format seems to be 50% 12Post, 30% Zoo/Sligh, 10% Combo Abominations like Hive Mind and some random other decks. Only my experience from testing two days straight on cockatrice.

My list atm.:


4 Dragonstorm
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ponder
4 Remand
4 Preordain
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
3 Gigadrowse
2 Cascade Bluffs
4 Dreadship Reef
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
6 Island
1 Mountain
2 See Beyond

SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 Repeal
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 4 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Shadow of Doubt
SB: 1 Gigadrowse

Pretty standard. Not sure if See Beyond should be Peer Through Depths though.

Some notes on the sideboard:
Volcanic Fallout is against Teeg and Canonist, also quite good against SOME Zoo lists.
However I feel like 3 damage is sooo much better most of the time, but instant speed and uncounterable is key here.

Firespout is just an additional sweeper. Better against non-hatebear-creatures, since it can take out goyf on occasion and kills Nacatl.

Not sure what Repeal is really for, I never sided it in. May become some artifact hate, since I ran into several 12 Post lists with Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst and Phyrexian Metamorph. Shattering Spree comes to Mind.

The additional Gigadrowse is against 12 Post and controlish decks, and it is awesome.

Blood Moon slows down 12Post considerably and gives you time to win. I'm not sure if Magus of the Moon wouldn't be better. It can't be dealt with by Pridemage which I've seen main in 12Post quite often. On the other hand Moon is cool against lots of zooish and fishy decks, too, which tend to run Lightning Bolts and the like.

I removed Shadow of Doubt initially, since there isn't that much tutoring around after all. But I realized it can serve as a timewalk so often, it's not even funny. Against 12Post you can counter Primeval Titan triggers, and Eye of Ugin searching. The greenish builts of 12Post rely on Primeval Titan quite heavily and between Gigadrowse, Remand and Shadow of Doubt you have 10 ways of buying time, while 6 of them also cantrip. Also it is strong against most of the combodecks out there. Still a slot open for debate.


Edit..And here is proof why Karrthus is awesome. I just got hit by Neo Cranial Extraction Thingy on Hellkites, then Drew Karrthus, cast it off Reef and Bloom and won the game :D. Epic

Wow, i need to read cards better, Karrthus gives the dragons haste. I'm sold.

Mr. Safety
08-16-2011, 12:47 PM
There seems to me to be two approaches. One plays like Solidarity, which attempts to stall using Remand/Gigadrowse/Repeal, buying enough time to find and build your ramp. The other option seems to be the Charbelcher-like route. Instead of trying to stall, you go off as soon as possible - no protection (Storm, in some sense, has its own built-in protection). Permission overall looks much worse in this format, and that seems to open up the Charbelcher style.

The Charbelcher, Go for the Throat type combo might look something like this:

// Lands - 19
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Shivan Reef
1 Halimar Depths

// Mana Acceleration - 16
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

// Win Con Package - 13
4 Dragonstorm
4 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Empty the Warrens

// Card Quality - 12
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Preordain
4 Ponder

I'm fairly certain that without Lotus Blooms, you're going to want to squeeze in 4x Simian Spirit Guide

rufus
08-16-2011, 01:39 PM
The Charbelcher, Go for the Throat type combo might look something like this:

It could get more agressive...something like:

Lands

4 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Dryad Arbor

Accelleration

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Channel the Suns
4 Reverberate

Utility

4 Green Sun's Zenith

Win Package

4 Dragonstorm
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Bogardan Hellkite

jancz
08-16-2011, 01:44 PM
4 Dragonstorm
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Crimson Hellkite


Crimson hellkite is banned in modern sir (as weird as that may seem)

I'll assume you mean bogadarn hellkites?

Mojeh
08-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Do you guys think Dragonstorm decks are better than a possible Empty the Warrens-combo based?

I am currently testing this list:


4 Lotus Bloom
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
2 Island
2 Ignite Memories
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Shivan Reef
4 Ponder
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Remand
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Gigadrowse


Maybe we could even cut some Bushwhackers.
Thoughts?

Mr. Safety
08-16-2011, 03:00 PM
It could get more agressive...something like:

Lands

4 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Dryad Arbor

Accelleration

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Channel the Suns
4 Reverberate

Utility

4 Green Sun's Zenith

Win Package

4 Dragonstorm
2 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
4 Bogardan Hellkite


SWEET list!!!

rufus
08-16-2011, 08:47 PM
SWEET list!!!

Thanks - it was just for goldfishing, really. Though I find myself wondering about additional support for Green Sun's Zenith...
Terastadon,Scion of the Ur-Dragon,Woodfall Primus,Gaea's Revenge, Broodmate Dragon, Primeval Titan, Realm Razer,Maelstrom Archangel...

Edit: it occurs to me that maybe things could be a little more optimized ... the list is pretty bad. Needs more Infernal Tutor and Spoils of the Vault.

264505
08-22-2011, 03:22 AM
How about a mono red build similar to what Pat Chapin ran at Worlds? His list:

Artifacts
4 Lotus Bloom (Not currently legal in Standard)

Creatures
4 Bogardan Hellkite (Not currently legal in Standard)

Enchantments
3 Pyromancer's Swath (Not currently legal in Standard)

Instants
4 Incinerate
4 Shock

Sorceries
4 Dragonstorm
4 Grapeshot
3 Rift Bolt
4 Rite of Flame

Tribal Instants
2 Tarfire

Basic Snow Lands
12 Snow-Covered Mountain

Lands
4 Fungal Reaches
4 Molten Slagheap
4 Spinerock Knoll

Already I can see that Seething Song could speed up the average combo turn and Lightning Bolt should be played over Tarfire and Shock as can Lava Spike.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 12:03 PM
Thanks - it was just for goldfishing, really. Though I find myself wondering about additional support for Green Sun's Zenith...
Terastadon,Scion of the Ur-Dragon,Woodfall Primus,Gaea's Revenge, Broodmate Dragon, Primeval Titan, Realm Razer,Maelstrom Archangel...

Edit: it occurs to me that maybe things could be a little more optimized ... the list is pretty bad. Needs more Infernal Tutor and Spoils of the Vault.

I think you've got too many GSZ's considering you're only really going to get Dryad Arbor (and MAYBE a Karthus.

Channel the Suns gives you an opportunity to play the Bringers, too.

Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Bringer of the Red Dawn
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Bringer of the White Dawn
Bringer of the Green Dawn

rufus
08-22-2011, 12:11 PM
I think you've got too many GSZ's considering you're only really going to get Dryad Arbor (and MAYBE a Karthus.

Channel the Suns gives you an opportunity to play the Bringers, too.

Bringer of the Blue Dawn
Bringer of the Red Dawn
Bringer of the Black Dawn
Bringer of the White Dawn
Bringer of the Green Dawn


My thinking had been to add:
1x Scion of the Ur-Dragon
1x Dragon Tyrant

So you can theoretically GSZ -> Scion, and pop it for Karrthus, and then pop it for the kill on the next turn.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 12:18 PM
Isn't Dragon Tyrant from scourge? I don't think it's legal...

On another note, does Kokusho, the Evening Star have a place in Dragonstorm? If you have drawn any number of Bogardan Hellkites, you can just search for 2 of them and 2 Kokusho, netting the same result: win the same turn Dragonstorm is cast.

rufus
08-22-2011, 01:03 PM
Isn't Dragon Tyrant from scourge? I don't think it's legal...

Yep, it's not allowed. Foiled again. However there are a couple of hard hitters available like Nicol Bolas, Steel Hellkite. Hellkite Overlord, or Teneb, The Harvester.

Wereodile
08-22-2011, 01:10 PM
Do you guys think Dragonstorm decks are better than a possible Empty the Warrens-combo based?

I am currently testing this list:


4 Lotus Bloom
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
2 Mountain
2 Island
2 Ignite Memories
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Shivan Reef
4 Ponder
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Remand
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Wipe Away
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 Gigadrowse


Maybe we could even cut some Bushwhackers.
Thoughts?

Most of the DStorm lists I have seen (Chapins list?) have ETW in them as an alternate Win Con or just gum up the red zone early-mid game.

Is it too greedy to put 4x ETW and 2x Bushwacker in Dstorm? Bushwhacker can give your dragons haste
just like Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, main downside though is he cannot tutored.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Yep, it's not allowed. Foiled again. However there are a couple of hard hitters available like Nicol Bolas, Steel Hellkite. Hellkite Overlord, or Teneb, The Harvester.

It just doesn't give the combo-feel. I would be using 3x Kokusho and 4x Bogardan Hellkite. Even if you draw 1 of each in your hand, you can still combo out by dealing 10 with Hellkite and the 2 Kokusho's 'legend rule' each other into the graveyard, netting you 10 life gain and your opponent 10 life loss. You could even tutor 3 Kokushos and 1 Hellkite, but you need at least 2 Kokushos to make it work.

*shrug* that's just me...I figured the extra dragons were in case you drew Hellkite.

Mojeh
08-22-2011, 07:07 PM
It just doesn't give the combo-feel. I would be using 3x Kokusho and 4x Bogardan Hellkite. Even if you draw 1 of each in your hand, you can still combo out by dealing 10 with Hellkite and the 2 Kokusho's 'legend rule' each other into the graveyard, netting you 10 life gain and your opponent 10 life loss. You could even tutor 3 Kokushos and 1 Hellkite, but you need at least 2 Kokushos to make it work.

*shrug* that's just me...I figured the extra dragons were in case you drew Hellkite.

Don't you think wasting 7 slots with "dead draws" is too much?
You could just play 3 Bogardan and 1 Karrthus, and See Beyond, to re-shuffle one of them, if needed.
Also, 2 Bogardan and 1 Karrthus are often enough to win.

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 07:44 AM
I don't think having 7 cards in the deck that win the game are wasted slots at all. If you draw 3 out of the 7 cards (which will happen rarely) then yeah, use See Beyond to shuffle them back. Having a 'fall back plan' of shuffling into your library with a sub-par draw spell is bad form IMHO. Brainstorm is an easy call in legacy, it's just THAT GOOD that it doesn't need to be justified...the re-shuffle is one of it's many uses, it's instant speed, and it only costs U. See Beyond only draws 2 cards (and then you lose one in the shuffle) so it essentially does way Preordain does...but with a shuffle effect for 1 more mana.

I'm just saying: why allow them to Path Karthus and gain an extra turn to stabilize when you can win on the spot? I think there will be blue decks popping up to combat the combo-pillar of this new format. If you get a chance to resolve Dragonstorm, I think it needs to win on the spot. Thinking you can pull out the attack phase as well seems greedy. This is speculation, but I'm sure folks are bringing Path to Exile and Echoing Truth for known tech. Squelch and Trickbind will start popping up as well, if only for the fetchland ramifications, but the ramifications for storm are big as well.

rufus
08-23-2011, 04:47 PM
So, some goldfishing has convinced me that Lotus Bloom is basically a must have card. That, in turn, opens up the possibility of playing RB:


4 Dragonstorm
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Kokusho, The Evening Star

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge Into Darkness
4 Spoils of the Vault

4 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


Though plunge and spoils really want replacement with something better, and the deck hurts for turn 1 moves... Splashing green for GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, or blue for some filtering options would help.

Sims
08-23-2011, 05:22 PM
This is similar to the list I'd play, though i'd likely go R/u.

See Beyond, Ponder/Preordain as setup spells, Lotus Bloom + red rituals, Grozoth can be a turn 3 transmute into your Dragonstorm for turn 4. I just wish there was something a tad more reliable to prevent coutnerspells from hitting the right ritual and shutting you down. Silence would be great but going 3 colors seems ill-advised. At that point I'd actually be wondering if Dragonstorm is even worth it over just playing Hivemind... (someone had to say it)

Tammit67
08-23-2011, 11:21 PM
I just wish there was something a tad more reliable to prevent coutnerspells from hitting the right ritual and shutting you down. Silence would be great but going 3 colors seems ill-advised. At that point I'd actually be wondering if Dragonstorm is even worth it over just playing Hivemind... (someone had to say it)

Gigadrowse is the best thing for me, although it is still a problem when I run into rewind. Defense grid? Yeah

Sims
08-24-2011, 08:05 AM
Defense Grid, indeed. Probably one of the best ways of trying to shut down any countermagic that could come out of a blue player. Maybe run like a 1 or 2 of Gemstone Cavern, hope to land the dream of turn 1 Defense Grid without needing to burn a ritual? Also put you a mana up on the "race to 9" game possibly enabling turn 1 Grid, turn 2 Transmute if needed for Dragonstorm, turn 3 rituals -> the big D.

Mr. Safety
08-24-2011, 08:19 AM
Defense Grid is hot tech, for sure. I wouldn't worry about 'wasting' a ritual to get it into play. It will hinder your opponent's countermagic enough to let you get to turn 4, which is when the magic happens with Lotus Bloom. Solid tech, and I'm wondering if it isn't maindeck worthy, as it stops your opponent's from playing Lightning Bolt/Helix on your turn.

Defense Grid is even better considering that the premier counterspell of the format is Cryptic Command...no one is going to pay 7 for Cryptic Command, and you can get it into play before Cryptic gets online. It dodges Spell Snare, too...one of the other hard counters. Now you just need to worry about Rune Snag/Mana Leak...and if you are splashing blue, then Spell Pierce and Dispel become really cheap ways to protect your hate and give you time to set up D-Storm.

EDIT: what was I thinking? Spell Snare has Defense Grid covered. I thought it was a 3-mana artifact, not 2.

Tammit67
08-24-2011, 10:33 PM
Lands (20):

4 Scalding tarn

2 Misty rainforest

1 Fungal Reaches

5 Mountain

2 Steam Vents

6 Island


Filtering (15):

4 See Beyond

3 Peer through Depths

4 Preordain

4 Ponder


Mana (12):

4 Lotus bloom

4 Seething Song

4 Rite of Flame


Protection (4):

4 remand


Wincon (9):

4 Bogardian Hellkite

4 Dragonstorm

1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

Performs very well for me so far, averaging turn 4-5. Obvious changes would include more storage lands, a forth peer through depths, and a 3 steam vents/some halimar depths perhaps. I rarely don't have a cantrip though, so I don't know if depths is worthwhile as CIPT hurts. See beyond has been awesome, even when it doesn't shuffle a dragon back in (To be honest, I'd rather hardcast a dragon sometimes), although I'll cut one for the PtD when I get another copy

stormbringer
08-12-2012, 01:27 AM
land
4x steam vents
4x sulfur falls
4x cascade bluffs
2x shivan reef
4x gemstone cavern


creatures
4x bogardan hellkite
2x thundermaw hellkite

enchantments
4x leyline of anticipation
4x counterbalance

artifacts
4x sensei's divining top
4x serum powder

instants
4x seething song
4x pact of negation
4x telling time

sorcery
4x rite of flame
4x brainstorm

chags
08-16-2012, 02:31 PM
Lands (20):

4 Scalding tarn

2 Misty rainforest

1 Fungal Reaches

5 Mountain

2 Steam Vents

6 Island


Filtering (15):

4 See Beyond

3 Peer through Depths

4 Preordain

4 Ponder


Mana (12):

4 Lotus bloom

4 Seething Song

4 Rite of Flame


Protection (4):

4 remand


Wincon (9):

4 Bogardian Hellkite

4 Dragonstorm

1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

Performs very well for me so far, averaging turn 4-5. Obvious changes would include more storage lands, a forth peer through depths, and a 3 steam vents/some halimar depths perhaps. I rarely don't have a cantrip though, so I don't know if depths is worthwhile as CIPT hurts. See beyond has been awesome, even when it doesn't shuffle a dragon back in (To be honest, I'd rather hardcast a dragon sometimes), although I'll cut one for the PtD when I get another copy

Preordain and ponder are banned....

Phoenix Ignition
08-16-2012, 03:10 PM
Sensei's Divining Top is also banned.

No_Life_No_Future
08-17-2012, 03:52 AM
ditto on rite of flame...

HammerAndSickled
08-17-2012, 04:14 AM
This thread is a year old, when none of those cards were banned. (Except SDT. Dunno where that idea came from!)

Phoenix Ignition
08-17-2012, 02:00 PM
This thread is a year old, when none of those cards were banned. (Except SDT. Dunno where that idea came from!)

Nah, stormbringer just posted a list with all of this stuff in it.

herbig
08-23-2012, 10:44 AM
Nah, stormbringer just posted a list with all of this stuff in it.

Needs more Grozoth.

magicmoocow
10-17-2012, 04:11 PM
I think he thought this was a legacy list possibly? I notice 4 Brainstorm...

magicmoocow
10-17-2012, 04:14 PM
... and while I'm on this thread, has anyone contemplated Goblin Electromancer in this list? Possibly only to side in after they have taken out all their removal...

JDK
10-17-2012, 05:05 PM
... and while I'm on this thread, has anyone contemplated Goblin Electromancer in this list? Possibly only to side in after they have taken out all their removal...
I don't think people will board out all of their removal. Mostly because they have more removal than cards to board in and cards like Lightning Bolt can go straight to the face.

magicmoocow
10-18-2012, 12:04 AM
I don't think people will board out all of their removal. Mostly because they have more removal than cards to board in and cards like Lightning Bolt can go straight to the face.

Alright so main deck then. :-)