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4eak
08-13-2011, 02:26 PM
This deck doesn't lose much when porting from Legacy to Modern. Few (if any) t2-3 combo decks means that Zoo has a good chance to race everything and is comparatively difficult to disrupt (as there isn't Wasteland, MM or other important tempo cards Zoo hates to see).

So, to get us started, I'll try out 2 Zoo lists.

Big Zoo:

// Lands - 21
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures - 24
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Green Sun's Zenith

// Burn & Control - 15
4 Path to Exile
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher

I'm shooting in the dark on the sideboard. Obviously, this list is looking for an acceptable midgame. I think it will perform well in Zoo-heavy Modern metagames. The other end of the Zoo spectrum is the more sligh-like Cat Zoo, which goes for the throat.


Cat (Sligh) Zoo:

// Lands - 19
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa

// Creatures - 22
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage

// Burn & Control - 19
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Forked Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage


As for mana-bases, I'm not sure if it is really going to be important to play that many basics. There is nothing even close to Wasteland in Modern. Tectonic Edge will probably be a common card though, if only because 12-post exists. I think we get to bend our mana bases more than usual though. Going for the black splash looks more viable to me as well.



peace,
4eak

4eak
08-13-2011, 02:59 PM
With Misty Rainforest you mean Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath I suppose.

I'd start from something like Gencon T8 List (piloted by Mark Larson):


21 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest

23 CREATURES
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Steppe Lynx
1 Loam Lion

14 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rift Bolt / Forked Bolt / xxx


Actually, Modern was born with the exact purpose to make Zoo the very best deck, you know.

AFAIK, this is the list of legal magic sets in Modern:

Eighth Edition
Ninth Edition
Tenth Edition
Magic 2010
Magic 2011
Magic 2012
Mirrodin block
Kamigawa block
Ravnica block
Coldsnap
Time Spiral block (including the "timeshifted" cards)
Lorwyn block
Shadowmoor block
Shards of Alara block
Zendikar block
Scars of Mirrodin block

I believe the Onslaught fetchlands are not legal in Modern.


peace,
4eak

Morte
08-13-2011, 02:59 PM
I believe the Onslaught fetchlands are not legal in Modern.


Fixed, thanks.

A port of Gencon T8 list (Mark Larson)


21 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest

23 CREATURES
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Steppe Lynx
1 Loam Lion

14 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rift / Forked Bolt ?


Maybe basics are useless in Modern, without Wasteland, Price of Progress and so on.

Actually, Modern was born with the exact purpose to make Zoo the very best deck of the format.

Rizso
08-13-2011, 03:06 PM
Maybe basics are useless in Modern, without Wasteland, Price of Progress and so on.


Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Ghost Quarters and Path to Exile is a few reasons to have basic lands. :P

Morte
08-13-2011, 03:13 PM
Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Ghost Quarters and Path to Exile is a few reasons to have basic lands. :P

Good point. Don't know if moon effects will be popular in Modern, but Path will, and it's alone a good reason to keep basics.

Rizso
08-13-2011, 03:19 PM
I think moon effects is gonna be great considering Lorwyn block as well as shock / fetch lands does exist in the format :P

RainbowPenguin
08-13-2011, 03:59 PM
A defining deck from old extended (or is it old old extended now?), which really should be considered here, is Rubin Zoo, by Ben Rubin:

Creatures
3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Punishing Fire

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Treetop Village

Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blood Moon
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain


The punishing fire/grove of the burnwillows will likely still be very good, and in a format where Zoo is likely to be top dog, just going for Big Zoo (or Even Bigger Zoo, if you will), could be a very good strategy.

The sideboard will of course have to be reconsidered, but the maindeck looks pretty strong still. The only thing missing is adapting it to GSZ.
I would propose the following: -1 Qasali Pridemage, -1 Elspeth, -2 Lightning Helix, -1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Treetop Village, +1 Dryad Arbor, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +4 Green Sun's Zenith. Perhaps the 2nd Treetop Village would be better off as a Horizon Canopy, I'm not sure.
This gives you the ability to GSZ for an anti-combo/control hate bear, gives you more virtual copies of Pridemage, and gives you more ramping, hopefully making up for the loss of speed from the two burn spells, and likely making up for having one less land.

trivial_matters
08-13-2011, 04:04 PM
There are a lot of options to explore with Zoo. Possibilities include midrange versions with Knight, Green Sun's Zenith and perhaps Punishing Fire/Grove, 1-drop aggressive builds, builds with Magus and Blood Moon (maybe out of the sideboard), builds with Bloodbraid Elf, land-destruction focused lists, etc.

There's definitely lots of potential here. Now they only need to reprint Price of Progress >_>.

264505
08-13-2011, 05:02 PM
If 12 Post becomes tier 1, LD zoo might be a good option as well. Boom//Bust is a strong card as it targets so you can target a fetch land of yours and crack it in response for a 2 mana stone rain.

sporenfrosch1411
08-14-2011, 02:05 PM
Any 1 got a sample list for a "LD Zoo" ?
Could not really find a feed on this :)
Thanks in advance

RainbowPenguin
08-14-2011, 05:01 PM
Any 1 got a sample list for a "LD Zoo" ?
Could not really find a feed on this :)
Thanks in advance

I don't have one, but basically you just want a fast zoo list with something like 4 Molten Rain maindeck, and 4 Stone Rain in the sideboard. Or perhaps 4 Boom//Bust main, 4 Molten Rain sb. Remove some burn or high-curve creatures to make room. To actually make such a deck work, it is important that you can cast one or two creatures before you start casting LD spells, since otherwise you are not really using the extra time you get. Hence it has to be fast zoo. In some matchups, especially on the draw, LD is an awful strategy, so I don't think you can afford to play more than 4 LD spells main, and unless the meta gets really degenerate, you likely wont want more than 8, maybe 10 LD spells against anyone.

Options that look nice, but are probably too slow, or that can be played around: Avalance Riders, Fulminator Mage, Goblin Ruinblaster.

Narrow but potentially good: Cryoclasm.

sporenfrosch1411
08-14-2011, 06:07 PM
So you go the "Catsligh" Route but drop the Goblin Guide's for Boom//Bust, or how is this gonna work?
Hm, i dont see how this is good yet....needs further approvement :D

CorpT
08-14-2011, 06:19 PM
If you play Boom/Bust, you should be playing Bloodbraid Elf so that you can roll across the Boom and cast Bust. Unfortunately, that means you can't run GSZ. Hard to say if Bust/BBE is better or worse than GSZ.

sporenfrosch1411
08-14-2011, 06:24 PM
So u start the scratch with:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Boom//Bust

?

CorpT
08-14-2011, 07:03 PM
So u start the scratch with:

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Boom//Bust

?

This was played at a PTQ: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=2433&iddeck=35843

It's probably a reasonable place to start.

4eak
08-14-2011, 08:34 PM
Bloodbraid Elf is 'meh'. It isn't godly enough - 4cc is a ton, and it isn't efficient enough given the options available in Modern.

Boom/Bust + Fetch trick requires you have 3 mana. The same is true with all the targeted LD spells. You might as well go full Moon effects here at that price. Moon is the real deal. You don't need a critical mass of bad and inefficient targeted LD effects when you can just drop a single Moon and win. Moon wrecks 12-post. If it resolves, they'll usually need to have an Island and a Repeal to even have a chance of coming back (although, that 12-Post MUD deck has a ton of lifegain and its own artifact ramp, so it has a better chance).

I realize you won't always have Moon effects, and in that case, I can see why you want additional mana disruption effects to buy time to either win or find/drop your Moon. I think Boom/Bust is a sideboard card though, not a main deck card. Moon, particularly since 4x of them have bodies, is good almost everywhere, and Boom/Bust isn't. You still want Zoo to be retardedly fast in every game 1 - and, at some point of sacrificing speed for LD effects, we aren't even talking about Zoo.

Here's a list:

// Lands - 22
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Temple Garden
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa

// Usual Dudes - 20
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Moon - 6
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Blood Moon

// Burn & Control - 12
4 Rift Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Boom
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: ...

Ghost Quarter has no home in Zoo w/Moons. It doesn't play nice with your own manabase. You are doing everything in your power to get your basics into play (sucks not to have Heath and Foothills) before you land Moon t3 - that means maxing on fetches (rather than playing Ghost Quarters). While you can Ghost Quarter yourself in certain situations, that often isn't an option. The mana-base is better off without Quarter, but that's fine since we have enough with 8x Moon effects and 4 LD cards in the 75. Just as relevant: Ghost Quarter blows when you are trying to Moon someone out, including their colors -- you'll win countless games because they didn't get basics in their colors.

The above list keeps what I believe are the best cards in Zoo and picks up a better G1 against 12-post and any other deck that gets wrecked by Moon.

I can see good reasons for Noble Hierarch. If you want them, I'd go:
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Marsh Flats
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+4 Noble Hiearch


peace,
4eak

CorpT
08-15-2011, 11:31 AM
One Modern event fired at SCGRichmond:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=40330

CorpT
08-16-2011, 01:24 PM
Three Zoo decks in Top16 of the Modern event in Chicago:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=896744
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=896742
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=896836

IthilanorStPete
08-20-2011, 04:59 AM
Tribal Zoo seems like an option very worth exploring. Obviously, you get Tribal Flames and Might of Alara. While you're dipping black, that gives you the option of playing Bob (though probably in the board). And this might seem like a crazy idea...but how good would Death's Shadow be in such a deck?

RainbowPenguin
08-20-2011, 12:03 PM
Tribal Zoo [with] Bob [...] how good would Death's Shadow be in such a deck?

Very bad, just like it would be everywhere else.

Cocix
08-26-2011, 05:42 AM
Hi everyone!
Considering all the combo decks that are viable in modern, do you think that a more-aggressive version of zoo is suitable for the actual modern metagame?
I was thinking to a "turn 4 kill" list but i can't figure it out without playing goblin guides and steppe lynx.
The main issue is that the goblin guide sometimes helps our opponent with the combo assembly and the steppe lynx is great only by playing 12-fetch list, so we need to increase the number of lands and the percentage of mana flood in each game.

So that was my first build attemp:

3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe lynx
4 Goblin guide
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the reliquary

2 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift bolt
3 Path to exile

1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arid Mesa

//Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Magus of the moon
1 Path to exile
2 Ancient Grudge

What do you think about it ? Do you think is better trying to build the zoo with loam lion and kird ape due to lavamancers issues? Or it will be very bad against all the combo decks because it's slower than a cat-sligh version ?

I apologies for my "english" :P

Mr. Safety
08-26-2011, 08:36 PM
My vote goes to cat sligh...you need to be able to race combo, and then have the magic answer in hand. I think the best combo hate is Mindbreak Trap. I'm playing 4 in my sideboard.

You can race the turn 4 combo decks (Dragonstorm, Second Sunrise, Enduring Ideal) easily enough, you just have to have Steppe Lynx in the mix. I also like the Goblin Guides, fast damage is crucial...but it may net your opponent more lands, which means more likelihood of comboing earlier (like turn 3...Dragonstorm and Second Sunrise can both combo out turn 3 with a lucky draw) Overall, I think you need a premium of 1-drop creatures for fast damage, whilst not walking head-first into Firespout.

Mr. Safety
09-26-2011, 09:53 AM
Is it just me, or is Grim Lavamancer stupidly good right now in Modern?

SpikeyMikey
11-23-2011, 11:47 PM
After having played with the 6-0 LDZ from Worlds, I'm very impressed. The deck is just nuts. It tore my Bant deck a new asshole; the first deck I've seen to do that. Bant was running almost 75%/80% GWP/MWP against the field and in 4 matches against that Zoo deck, it went 4-6 in games and 1-3 in matches. By contrast, the record vs. Cat Sligh was 9-4 in games and 4-1 in matches.

For reference, Andrew Roistan's Land Destruction Zoo (LDZ):


4 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Boom // Bust
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

2 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Path to Exile

Sideboard

3 Ancient Grudge
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Geistflame
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Nature's Claim
2 Path to Exile
2 Rule of Law



Some of the slots in the sideboard are questionable. Geistflame immediately comes to mind as absolute trash. And 2 Rule of Law is not enough for storm combo. But holy fuck, this deck is brutal. On the play it has some of the sickest tempo moves I've ever seen. The first game we played, my opponent had turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Knight, turn 3 Bloodbraid into Boom/Bust. Not only did it set me back 2 lands, but his Knight become a 7/7. Good luck dealing with that opening.

I'm not sure I like the Treetop Village, even as a KotR target. There's got to be something better for the slot. But for the most part, the deck is fast and it's brutal.

Mr. Safety
11-25-2011, 10:37 AM
How often does Bloodbraid hit Boom/Bust? It seems fairly low considering there is a ton of stuff at 3cc or less in there. Does B/B get hardcasted quite often?

SpikeyMikey
11-25-2011, 11:45 AM
How often does Bloodbraid hit Boom/Bust? It seems fairly low considering there is a ton of stuff at 3cc or less in there. Does B/B get hardcasted quite often?

It was definitely a problem for me in the 4 matches I played. BBE only hit B/B once, but it was gamebreaking. Mostly, though, the problem was that there'd be a turn 1 Nacatl, turn 2 burn spell on my Hierarch/Birds and turn 3 B/B. It set me back quite a bit. Zoo doesn't need a lot of extra turns to really crank the screws, it's pretty fast as is. When they can swing every turn and time walk you with Booms... And you have to respect the Blood Moon. If you play like they don't have it, you absolutely lose when they do. If you play like they do have it, you slow yourself down even more if they don't. I dunno, I may be getting a little over-hyped by 4 matches, but it was pretty brutal for me.

Mr. Safety
11-26-2011, 04:34 PM
Fair enough...the other question I had was how often they used Boom and didn't rely on Bust.

I suppose a Wasteland that costs :r::1: is fairly powerful in modern, eh?

SpikeyMikey
11-26-2011, 07:39 PM
Fair enough...the other question I had was how often they used Boom and didn't rely on Bust.

I suppose a Wasteland that costs :r::1: is fairly powerful in modern, eh?

Usually, the land you target on your side is a fetchland. And then you fetch in response. Their land is still a legal target, so the spell resolves. So it's a sinkhole that requires a fetchland in play to use. Of course, there are times when you let a land go, but usually...

Mr. Safety
11-28-2011, 09:27 AM
Usually, the land you target on your side is a fetchland. And then you fetch in response. Their land is still a legal target, so the spell resolves. So it's a sinkhole that requires a fetchland in play to use. Of course, there are times when you let a land go, but usually...

Wow...I forgot that Boom // Bust targeted lands, I thought it was a sacrifice effect...now I understand why it is so powerful as a tempo trick. Playing Sinkhole for 1R seems good enough that most decks using red in modern should be playing 8-10 fetchlands and Boom//Bust. Anything with Knight of the Reliquary should definately be using Boom//Bust.

EDIT: where it's an 'and' clause, does it still resolove if it doesn't have 2 legal targets (ie fetchland gets cracked)? Just making sure I understand this correctly...

Borealis
11-28-2011, 10:44 PM
It resolves because you target the land and then fetch in response. If you had no lands in play I'm pretty sure you can't cast it, but obviously that will rarely be an issue.

I was über psyched about boom/bust but have recently been testing channel fireball's tribal snap list that did oh-so-well at worlds. I think boom bust isn't quite as fast or consistent in the early turns but has the oops I win appeal. Without 12 post around it might not be as strong, but as soon as the meta gets slower or lazy again I'll pull it back off the shelf. Armageddon is always fun.

That said, tribal flames and steppe lynx have been consistently getting me turn five wins, and it's a list that can adjust to many changes in the meta, but still provides crazy pressure.

SpikeyMikey
11-29-2011, 12:43 AM
The thing is, I don't really feel that the CFB list was any good. It did well only because the metagame at that level of the tournament was so inbred. It was a lot of domain Zoo vs. domain Zoo. I played around with the listing a little the night before and the morning of and was thoroughly unimpressed. I feel like Dave Caplan almost lost himself the T8 spot and definitely lost himself a spot in the MOCS finals by running it. The mana base required for Tribal Flames is atrocious and Snappy is just not where Zoo wants to be. Steppe Lynx is fantastic, yes, and you have potential turn 3 kills with a Tribal Flames Zoo deck running Lynx, but you also end up taking 7-10 damage from your mana most games.

Borealis
11-29-2011, 12:01 PM
I don't think you can say the CFB list "wasn't any good", that's a pretty false blanket statement. You can say things like "the mana base is wicked sketchy" or "casting Snapcaster Mage is sometimes a problem", but just because the format was inbred and hosted a lot of mirror matches doesn't mean the deck was NOT GOOD.

The CFB Tribal-Snap list is incredibly powerful and efficient, and offers enough disruption with Spell Pierce/Negate and the like to stall opposing interaction long enough to Go for the Throat, as it were. It's faster than many Legacy Zoo decks I have piloted, which is obviously largely due to the lack of Wasteland, combined with the uniqueness of this build compared with previous Legacy versions (i.e. snapcaster + tribal flames).

Yes, you will take a lot of damage from untapped lands, and yes you will often have trouble hitting RR for double burn, or UU for Snapping back a Spell Pierce, or RW on two different lands to be able to cast Helix. Yes that sucks and I hate not being able to always curve out perfectly with Zoo, but it's worth the ability to actually race combo and control in the early game. Learning how to manage the manabase as effectively as possible will be one of the hardest things to master when piloting the deck. If the manabase was any better, the deck would be super unfair.

Is the list good against Bigger Zoo or Aggro-Destroying Bant decks? Probably not. But I have not idea what the meta will be up here in Boston, so I'm just picking the most fun looking list I find. If it sucks, I'll audible to a less mana-hungry Tribal Flames list, or maybe try a Big Zoo or Boom/Bust variant.

I've hated the idea of CounterCat Zoo, or Legacy's BlueZoo with Jace, since they all seemed to sacrifice speed for control. This is the first Zoo list I've found that supports counterspells while still providing an insanely fast clock, which is why I like Zoo in the first place. Until someone rolls me with a better deck, I'll be happily Snapping back Burn Spells and leaving mana open for Spell Pierce while swinging with 4/5s and 3/3s all day long.

SpikeyMikey
11-29-2011, 01:46 PM
From the meta breakdown on the coverage, Snapcaster Zoo had a 46% win ratio against the field. Standard "old fashioned" Zoo was 56% against the field. If you're LSV, I imagine you're going to do just fine with the deck, but that doesn't mean that the list is actually any good. LSV could put up a good run with a precon.

So no, I suppose an inbred field is not proof positive of the fact that the deck is bad. But 46% against the field over 174 matches is pretty strong evidence. And keep in mind that its heavy saturation probably did a lot to moderate that number; a mirror match will always push the percentages closer to 50%. You're probably looking at being a 8% dog against the field, excluding mirrors, with Snapcaster in your deck. So I would imagine that it won't be too long before someone rolls you with a better deck :P

There are ways that Zoo can control the tempo of a matchup, but the deck functions off of the idea that every card in the deck is a weapon. Some weapons have alternative uses, like Qasali Pridemage or Knight of the Reliquary. But *everything* is a threat. The original Zoo deck (well, the original RGW Zoo, Scott John's Zoo deck was actually more akin to RUG Tempo in the way it functioned) could do interesting things with Fire/Ice and Isochron Scepter, but Fire/Ice was still good removal back then and decent reach. Snapcaster is a conditional card with a more or less irrelevant body. Three months ago, I'd have advocated 4xSpell Pierce in everything, but with 12Post gone, Twin limping and storm doing next to nothing, I wouldn't run it, especially in Zoo.

On an unrelated note, I'm starting to think that 4xLeyline of Punishment is going to be a must for Zoo sideboards, regardless of build. Stigma Lasher and Flames of the Blood Hand are passable, but they don't necessarily come down early enough to stop a massive Martyr.

Borealis
11-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Ok, statistics are great and all, and if I was going to play at a pro-level tournament next week the above numbers you quoted would probably be reasonably significant when considering which deck I would play. And yes, LSV obviously plays at a higher level than I do, but then again he was playing a Worlds, which is full of higher-level players. But saying that San Francisco's meta concentration will be equal roughly to my local PTQ scene and therefore a particular "8%" dog of a deck will suck is not accurate.

Maybe I offended you Mikey when I "put down" the Boom//Bust list you were raving about above, but that wasn't my intent. I was pretty psyched about running Boom//Bust Zoo too, and I still am. I just happen to have more of the cards for TribalSnap and decided to run it instead, since it looked like fun and yes, because a whole TEAM of Professionals thought it was good. And your impression of the LDZ deck was based of a handful of matchups, much like my impression of the Domain list. Sure, I chose the deck because ChannelFireball put up a decent looking list that I liked, but I'm continuing to run it now because my personal experience with it has been positive thus far.

I have no idea how my local meta will actually shape up this season, and neither do you, so speculating what's "good and bad" based on some statistics is relatively useless. I'll concede I did that when I mentioned that 12post isn't around so therefore Boom/Bust isn't as strong (theoretically), but that was still purely speculation. This isn't the SCG circuit with weekly results, it's a new format that has barely started growing. Guaranteed I will sleeve up some Bloodbraids and BoomBusts at some point this season, as soon as I sense the timing is right. You'd be remiss not to test out Snapcasters and Tribal Flames before dismissing it as bad. If you had, you probably would realize that Snapcaster is actually a real threat, and his condition is usually met by the second or third turn. His virtual cost is basically equal to 4, since that's usually where your best value is out of him (flashing back Helix or Flames ideally). But for 3-4 mana, instead of say a Planeswalker, or a Bloodbraid/Boom/Bust, you have dealt another 3-5 damage and added another body to your board, all at instant speed. Seems liike a pretty damn good threat for a Sligh deck to me.

And don't worry, I don't get "rolled" easily. ;)

SpikeyMikey
11-29-2011, 03:29 PM
I'm not in any way, shape or form offended. But I'm not sure what your parameters for "not good" are. The deck is negative EV. While deck selection differs from person to person, I want a deck that's going to either give me the best win %age vs the field or the deck with the best win %age against the DtB and a reasonable chance of winning against the rest of the field. By that, I mean I'd rather have a deck that's either 57%+ against the field or 65%+ against the DtB and still 50%+ against the field.

Statistics in Magic are not firm facts. You're never going to have enough instances of a given event to accurately depict the shape of a format or matchup. Luck is going to factor into it because the sample sizes are necessarily small. And playskill and other factors are not necessarily equal, making a straight up deck-to-deck comparison a little sketchy. But you can ballpark it. You can say "hey, this deck loses to the field". Maybe it's not actually 46%. Maybe it's 40%. Maybe it's 48%. But it's definitely a loser.

I like LDZ. I'm not sure I want to be running it right now, partly because domain Zoo's poor showing will kill its popularity and partly because Zoo in general is so popular (and in some part because it draws like shit for me. I've seen other people do very well with it, but it does not want to function in my hands). LDZ isn't really the ideal anti-Zoo Zoo deck. So I'd hold off on it a bit too. But what I think about LDZ has absolutely nothing to do with what I think about domain Zoo.

Borealis
11-29-2011, 04:40 PM
Well fair enough. I looked at the numbers on the coverage page, and yes indeed it says that Snapcaster lists did worse than 47%, while the rest would have averaged out over 56%. But notably, "tribal Zoo" achieved 58% win rate, but the CFB lists were running both Tribal Flames and Snapcaster, so which category did they get put into? Obviously a whole bunch of people probably jammed Snapcaster into their Zoo decks, but maybe their lists were not optimized and thoroughly tested, unlike the group of ChannelFireballers who did 4-2 or better. Point being, numbers don't tell the whole story, especially when you're talking about Worlds in San Francisco vs. some PTQ in your hometown. Not to mention the fact that Zoo was flooded in popularity, not necessarily by Zoo players, but by people who thought it would be the best all around choice for the last day of a 3-day grinder. How many control players tried to play Snapcaster in Zoo because they like blue, but didn't adequately learn Zoo itself?

My parameters for "not good" are decks that just aren't good. If I tested a "bad" deck and thought it was good, I would give it a shot, until I decided in testing or tournament play that it was indeed "not good". A deck that catapulted many pros to a 4-2 or better record at a pro level tournament, relevant or not, seems better than not good to me. A deck that gets lower than 30% EV or so is probably not good. A deck that is one of many variations of a deck that consistently gets close to or better than 50% is perfectly fine. And a deck that gets 45% EV can easily get over 50% with a better Sideboard and good technique. Variance is a thing, and like you said statistics are not cold hard facts.

What's your meta like in Madison? Or mine in Boston? That's the important question. You mentioned LDZ seeming strong in your experience, but the stats from SanFran don't reflect that. Does that mean you won't crush with it in WI? No, it means some other people didn't crush with it at some other tournament.

Like you, I don't know what I'll actually be playing, but it will most likely be some variant of Zoo or Rug Tempo (if it's good). If a PTQ fired tomorrow I'd happily walk in their running some Snapcasters in Tribal Zoo. If I then decided he sucked, based on my own experience, I'd just as happily drop him for something else. But at this point in the format I'm not going to make decisions based on some pro players successes and failures on the Left Coast on day 3 of Worlds. It's a good place to start, but ultimately it's up to me how the deck does. Their 46% could easily be my 56%. But until I actually show up and test it out, the numbers don't mean shit.

Borealis
12-08-2011, 01:49 PM
So I'm fairly confident that Goyf will not be banned next week, but I do think there is a decent chance that Wild Nacatl will get the 'HAMMA. I was holding back mentioning it because I never want to cry wolf, and I also don't want to lose the sexy-panther-lady, but I think it's worth considering what the impact would be. Hopefully Wizards still smiles on Zoo for at least another season though, and gives the control players a chance to develop a better plan against us, which should balance out the format a little better. I think they should, as the PTQ season will give the format a healthy dose of attention, and thus give us more information on whether Wild Nacatl is oppressive or not. (it's soooooo goood....)

Mr. Safety
12-08-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm already fairly dissapointed with modern...losing Wild Nacatl would cement my re-focus back into legacy.

SpikeyMikey
12-08-2011, 03:05 PM
You hate the format because Zoo is too dominant, but you'd hate it even more if Nacatl went away. I'm failing to understand.

KevinTrudeau
12-08-2011, 03:19 PM
You hate the format because Zoo is too dominant, but you'd hate it even more if Nacatl went away. I'm failing to understand.

Modern sucks, in large part due to its shitty ban list (and amount of legal sets), in addition to Zoo being predominant. If Nacatl gets banned, it'll be contributing more to WotC's horrible philosophy concerning the ban list, and force Modern to go through another huge metagame shift this early in its infancy. The cons of banning Nacatl outweigh the cons of keeping it legal (especially when you consider the multitude of different other things that could be done to fix Modern), in addition to Safety possibly subjectively liking the card.

At least, that's how I interpreted it.

Mr. Safety
12-08-2011, 07:54 PM
Bingo...one more deck that will have to be a compromise of what it should be. Add zoo to the list of powerful decks neutered by WotC:

Faeries
Affinity
Dredge
Elves
Hypergenesis
Hex-Depths
Thopter-Sword
All In Red

And coming to a metagame near you, the next deck nuked: Zoo!!! Yay, I'm so fucking excited to be playing in a format where almost all of the powerful cards are gone. Just wait, first it's Nacatl, next is Bob. You'll see. Pretty soon it will be only the last 3-4 sets printed for the modern card pool...oh wait, they have that already. Well, why reinvent the wheel? :mad:

I don't know about anyone else, but I play magic because of the powerful plays. Not having the hallmark 3/3 for :g: would just neuter another deck. Rather than unleash the potential of the format, they are stifling it into oblivion.

BTW, Wild Nacatl is one of my favorite cards of all time. What I'm saying is I'll go back to turning it sideways in legacy where it's more fun...

Borealis
12-12-2011, 04:51 AM
I wouldn't jump to conclusions Mr. Safety. Yes, if they wanted to neuter Zoo, than Wild Nacatl would be the way to do it. Do I think they really will do that? No.

Wizards certainly has seemed to smile upon Zoo, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Nor do I think that they are keen on banning ANY creatures without serious game-changing abilities, especially not a lowly 3/3. I think they will exercise more patience than the player base has been doing, and realize that with time, Zoo's dominance will dwindle. They've been doing this for 18 years, and they are fully aware of the ability of players to overcome strong strategies with genius deckbuilding and clever card selection. As soon as one of those players figures out a list that can handle Zoo and Combo, everything will be right with the Modern World. The format needs time more than anything. Unbanning Preordain would probably help speed up the process, but that could bite them back if they aren't careful.

My prediction is that they change nothing about the Modern Ban List this round.

Mr. Safety
12-12-2011, 08:19 AM
I hope that the do change the ban list...by unbanning some cards.

I took a long hard look at the modern ban-list and I have come to the conclusion that there are really only 2 cards that need to be banned from modern:

1) Skullclamp (for obvious reasons, need i explain?)

2) Cloudpost (it's just too hard to hate out without a viable Wasteland in the format. The decks that played Posts were not only fast at putting down the goods but also great at leveraging the long game. Without a viable and strong control deck in the format it would continue to be the juggernaught that it is.)

I could be convinced of Cloudpost being unbanned, too...because there would be a plethora of combo decks that would be just nuts-faster. I would absolutely love to have a format where CounterTop could be played alongside Rite of Flame and Bitterblossom.

On topic, as far as zoo goes...what would replace Nacatl as the go-to one-drop? I'm guessing Goblin Guide and/or Steppe Lynx would jump in.

Borealis
12-12-2011, 10:43 AM
Yea, you'd either go real big Bantish zoo with nobles pridemages knights and probably snapcaster or some other blue stuff, or you' just run mostly 1-drops without the 'catls. Boom bust would probably be a good option too. None sound as exciting as an opener with double Wild Nacatl.

I'm not so sure you could unban all but those two cards you mentioned without serious issues, but it would be interesting to find out I suppose.

Mr. Safety
12-12-2011, 03:42 PM
It would break their turn-4 rule, but I think that would be fun.

Most decks would be getting a turn 2-3 win, and you would need to have a plan just as powerful in order to compete.

Does it appeal to others to have a break-neck speed to the format?

Do you want to drag race with an '85 VW Fox or a '72 Dodge Charger? Just starting the Charger would feel better than racing the VW.

apistat_commander
12-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Any suggestions on what to replace Goyf with in LDZ? Should I up the amount of Pridemages? Or maindeck Kitchen Finks? Is Goblin Ruinblaster simply too slow for Modern?

apistat_commander
12-22-2011, 10:45 AM
Here is my take on LDZ post Nacatl banning:

Creatures(22):
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Goblin Guide
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Qasali Pridemage

Instants(10):
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Path to Exile

Sorceries(4):
4x Boom//Bust

Enchantments(2):
2x Blood Moon

Land(22):
4x Arid Mesa
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Marsh Flats
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Temple Garden
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain

Sideboard:??

People are definitely trying to do too much with their manabases and punishing them for it seems like a good idea. I don't like the anti-synergy between Boom/Bust and PtE but I don't really have a trump to opposing Tarmogoyfs. I haven't gotten to play many games yet, so I don't have a sense for what the deck is lacking. Going on theory-crafting alone, I think it will be strong against control/mid-rangey strategies but weaker against the mirror. I will likely have to sideboard in such a way to shore up my mirror against other Zoo decks, so some number of Finks will probably go there (maybe a few in the main?). Thoughts?

Borealis
01-10-2012, 01:04 AM
I think that the zoo decks that will most frequently appear in Top 8's this coming PTQ season will most likely resemble this:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
4 Path to Exile

4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Plains
1 Forest

And that's where I will be starting when the time comes. And of course most of you know, but this is a perfect carbon copy of Owen Turtenwald's list found here:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-the-most-modern-zoo/

I've only tested it out a little bit, mostly against storm, but I tend to agree with Owen that in the right hands, this deck can win tournaments. I didn't post his SB because I don't think I will copy it as closely, but if Storm is a thing then I will probably still play 3-4 Mindbreak Traps. Blood Moon can be annoying, so it would be smart to maybe have a couple Krosan Grips or Pridemages somewhere in the 75, but playing around it can be effective if you're careful enough. Martyr Proc is a problem, but I don't know how much that will translate to paper magic, so Sulfur Elemental will wait in the wings until that becomes clear. Thrun = Good, but again 3 maybe overkill in a larger meta than MODO. Still, I think he pretty much hit the nail on the head, and I'm looking forward to readying this deck for the upcoming season.

Borealis
01-24-2012, 03:52 PM
No Love on This Thread?!?

Anyway, I ran the above list to a 5th place finish at a local GPT last Saturday. Attendance was 24 total, but the 1st place prize was 4x Goyf, so it would have been nice to actually get 4th and split. ALAS, Boros kicked my ass after I barely squeaked out the win against him in round 5. It sucks to lose the top 8 to the deck you just beat to get INTO the top 8...

Here was my SB, heavily geared toward Twin and Affinity:

3 Combust
2 Damping Matrix
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Naturalize
2 Negate
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

I played the following:

Round 1, U/R/W Persist/Bounce Homebrew (2-0)
Round 2, Grixis Delver/Snapcaster (2-0)
Round 3, Mono-U Merfolk (0-2)
Round 4, Storm (2-1) (I was NOT prepared, he made mistakes)
Round 5, Boros (2-1)

The same Boros player beat me 1-2 in the very next round in the Finals, I was not excited about having to play him twice. Searing Blaze is a beating for us. Merfolk, a very easy matchup in Legacy, has gone way closer to 50/50 in Modern, unless you choose not to run Islands in Zoo. I made mistakes game 2, and felt I should have at least gotten to game 3, but it's not easy. My roomate's Fish deck splashes Black, and I have an even harder time against his build. Thank God there is no Submerge in this format.

I should have respected Storm a little more, as they literally just poop on Zoo if we don't have like 4+ SB cards. I might add 1-2 Mindbreak Trap for the next time, and probably a Mana Leak to splash over onto Twin as well. (I might just try and run 3 Mana Leaks, as we shouldn't ever be in a position where it's a dead card, and it covers many bad matchups.) Canonist definitely got me there game 2 though, so it's a tough call. If he didn't misplay game 3, I was done for.

The heavy artifact/enchantment hate was probably uncalled for, even though I managed to dodge the Affinity and Twin bullets, there are probably better ways to balance my board. Grip/Naturalize was for Blood Moon too, but I probably never side that in against that effect, and just play around it as best I can. 2-3 Ancient Grudge is probably still totally fine, I just didn't want to get caught by surprise by some stupid enchantment that stopped me cold.

The Swords were awesome, though I only ever need SoWAP (FaF is for Jund obviously), it helped me out in 2 separate games. Most notably, it destroys Boros, the Mirror, and RDW variants, and the lifegain is really relevant. I may change these around a bit, and they may be better as something else (is Timely Reinforcements effective at all against Jund?), but for now I'm keeping them. Needs more testing. Also, I don't think Jund is that bad of a matchup, so I might just have to call it good and use mindtricks and tight play to beat them games 2-3. Like, throw my whole sideboard in and then pull out the same 15 cards. I'd probably still run a Sowap against them, even though it's only pro-terminate, the lifeswing is really relevant even against them. And, you can deal combat damage to the player and then kill Liliana with the Sword Trigger. That's Value! Also, SoWaP's protection works against Finks and BBE, and you should be able to outswing their Goyf with it too assuming you have either goyf or KOTR (or the Gy is tiny). SoFAF would be much better against them colors-wise, but the abilities on SoWAP are way more valuable to Zoo. I think I just convinced myself to run 2 SoWAPs and call it a day.

If you were worried though, fear not. Zoo's still a thing.

EDIT: After bombing out in a recent PTQ, I'm not so confident in Zoo anymore.