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4eak
08-13-2011, 04:07 PM
I don't know if Merfolk will be a decent deck or not. It traditionally belongs in blue and/or combo heavy metagames (which, we might argue, WoTC is pushing against in Modern). It loses important cards like FoW, Daze, Wasteland, and some others like Standstill, Jitte, and Stifle. The fact remains that Aether Vial is legal in Modern, and that is the crux of the deck. Alongside keeping all its creatures, the deck still exists in Modern; we just don't know if will be worth playing or not. Zoo played in large enough percentages can make Merfolk a bad choice (and there are several midrange decks which are bad matchups for Merfolk as well). Despite that, I'm still going to suggest we at least try Merfolk in such an unknown metagame.

Merfolk might be a deck that will start out as a bad deck until the metagame evolves and settles a bit into something which *might* be blue-centric (a reasonable possibility given the history of magic).

Here is an example Modern Merfolk list:

// Lands - 20
16 Island
4 Mutavault

// Creatures - 26
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Tempo - 14
4 AEther Vial
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 3 Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Dismember

Finding the appropriate countersuite matters. Equipment, Spellstutter Sprite, V-Clique, and Tectonic Edge are important considerations. I have no idea if this list is built appropriately. If Merfolk does become a reasonable deck, I assume this isn't too far off from what it will look like.

Also, a white splashed Merfolk might perform better. You pick up several tools, including Path to exile, Sejiri Merfolk, and a more complete sideboard.



peace,
4eak

rupus
08-13-2011, 04:28 PM
I think it might need to be more similar to extended merfolk and focus more on aggro backed up by a few powerful spells (cryptic in extended). Its hard to play the tempo game without any free counters or wasteland. I guess shoal is ok but it sure isn't force or even daze or misstep. I would start by cutting the sovereigns for something like 1 island and maybe 2 spell snares and a misers cryptic. Either way I feel like you need at least 10 counters. Other things to consider are both syggs, cold eyed selkie and maybe even green for goyf like some old old merfolk decks did.

trivial_matters
08-13-2011, 04:30 PM
Yeah, Spell Snare ought to be pretty good with all the Goyfs and Confidants around.

Sturtzilla
08-15-2011, 11:23 PM
Cryptic Command and Spell Snare seem good. Cryptic is slow but gives the deck basically every tool it could want. The format will also be a little slower than we are used to. I think it should work pretty well.

Some other ideas form block awhile back: Stonybrook Banneret and Sage's Dousing. These could be decent but I think that might need some testing.

Edit: I am not sure how I feel about the Shoal. I just have a feeling that it will be hit or miss.

4eak
08-16-2011, 12:12 AM
By the time Cryptic Command is castable, a sizable portion of your counter targets can also be countered by hardcast Shoal. Obviously Cryptic is still preferred at that stage of the game. But, Merfolk doesn't even want to be at that stage of the game, I think. I know I'm trying to win the game before I have 4 lands in play, and I try to play cards which promote that. The early game, Shoal is your substantially weaker version of FoW. It is worth trying if you haven't.



peace,
4eak

TRS-Jo
08-16-2011, 08:42 AM
I used your list for some testing against 12Post and I think Disrupting Shoal is a better choice than Cryptic Command.

Merfolk has so many creatures that itīs nearly impossible to keep 1UUU open. On the other hand playing Shoal for free is rather costy as you will lose a creature in your hand most of the time.
Maybe Delay would be a good choice. Sure, it doesnīt hardcounter the opponent's spell, but three extra turns should be enough to finish the game with this deck, isnīt it?

Maveric78f
08-16-2011, 09:05 AM
In a FoWless Merfolk, you might want a shapeshifter. It helps the aggro part and it is also a way to control to opposing creatures.

Phyrexian Metamorph : copies creatures and artifacts (equipments)
Shapesharer : can be played first to copy lords, can be made unblockable with Sovereign and then copy a bigger creature your opponent controls

Also, I don't like Kira, never did.

bakofried
08-16-2011, 09:10 AM
With Zoo predicted to be one of the most popular decks? I'd think twice before playing folk without 2, maybe 3 copies in my 75.

Maveric78f
08-16-2011, 09:19 AM
If Zoo is dominant, don't play Folks. That's all. Also, how many anti-creatures is playing zoo ? Kira is basically a 3CC creature that will counterspell 1 removal. If you played another lord in its place (or a shapeshifter, basically the same), the effect is almost the same. Kira might be a SB tech, but it seems to me that it won't save the Zoo MU.

bakofried
08-16-2011, 10:19 AM
Kira draws away 2 removal spells in exchange for one card from our hand. Beyond that, 2 removal spells are required in the first place, which may shut off decks with a low removal count.

Maveric78f
08-16-2011, 10:32 AM
It is was playable at turn 1 like Mother of Runes, it would be okay. But when Kira comes down, it's already too late, you have already played lords, or you have lost a lot of tempo. Generally Kira counters only 1 removal spell, because Kira won't be removed (except if I have 3 creature removal in hand). Only the lord is going to be removed.

4eak
08-16-2011, 02:11 PM
If Kira is coming down t3 (or t4 off vial), it isn't too late. You really haven't played your lords - only half of them were castable (usually) at that point in time.

Further, getting one lord removed isn't our problem. It is usually when your opponent has multiple removal spells that we fail to stack lords. Kira absorbs at least 2 removal spells (and usually more in my experience). That's the point of the card. It is vital if you face Zoo.

Kira often sets up situations where they only have 2 removal spells, they blow the first removal spell, then they go for the second, I counter it, and then they have to wait to build up to 2 more removal spells (by which time, I very well might have another counter, or flat win the game).

Now, I agree with the sentiment that if Zoo is overly dominant, you shouldn't be playing Merfolk. It is possible, however, for Zoo to be tier 1 and not played in enough numbers (and for the rest of the field to be decent/good Merfolk matchups) such that Merfolk is still positioned well enough in the metagame to be viable. I'd say Legacy has often been like this.

Admittedly, I prefer not to have Kira. But, it very well may be a necessary evil. It is one of the few cards which enables Merfolk to have a fighting chance in metagames with higher proportions of Zoo. It doesn't make Zoo favorable, but that isn't the point -- for 2 slots, it gives you a lot of bang for your buck.

Further, in a metagame which may be packing targeted removal specifically for Zoo, Kira becomes even better; this is especially true if they aren't packing the critical mass of 1-for-1 removal that Zoo is packing.



peace,
4eak

Maveric78f
08-17-2011, 04:53 AM
Of course Kira does something that another lord would not do, but still, in several points, my thinking about Kira (at least as it was in legacy) was:
1/ It's better than a lord if:
... * You opponent has several targeted removals
... * You have lords in play
... * You do not have enough lords in play to make the opposing removal relevant (I mean that if your
2/ You do not have library manipulation to find Kira when you need it.
3/ It's legendary.
4/ It's a 2/2 Vanilla, non Merfolk creatures in many MUs.
5/ Merfolk is anyway a bad deck to play in a field with a lot of targeted removal.
6/ Also, in legacy only, Karakas/Maze completely nullify the added value of Kira. With a bit of thinking, I'm sure there will be a lot of equivalent responses in Modern (starting with the anti-equipment land, Jitte, SoFI, Ajani Vengeant, ...).

My conclusions are:
- If you want to play it main deck, it means that you plan to face a lot bad MUs
... ==> Don't play merfolk
- You might want to play it in SB, but even though it does not seem to me game breaking enough to deserve a SB slot. Nevertheless, without anything better (I was first thinking about Chill which is also effective against pyroclasm and firespout, but then realized it's not modern-legal), I could understand why one would like to deserve 2 or 3 SB slots.

Bignasty197
08-17-2011, 10:49 AM
Back during Time Spiral/Lorwyn standard, I played 2 Psionic Blast in Merfolk. Since this deck won't likely be running shocklands and fetches, Psionic Blast gains some added value against the decks that do run them. I think running 2 Blasts won't dilute the deck much while giving it that last push to finish the game.

_Paradox_
08-19-2011, 12:51 AM
I have been doing pretty well on ml with this list -


// Lands
4 [MOR] Mutavault
17 [UNH] Island
2 [WWK] Tectonic Edge

// Creatures
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [NPH] Dismember
4 [ZEN] Spreading Seas

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [DIS] Spell Snare


sb needs some work but i love the md

Wereodile
08-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Hey Guys this is the list I have been playing around with, I think a mana denial/disruption package could be very strong against some of the more "greedy" decks that will pop up. Spellstutter Sprite seems like a great suggestion. I am feeling good about Familiars Ruse as a hard counter.

//Modern Fish\\

//Creatures// 18

4x Lord of Altantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
2x Phantasmal Image

//Spells// 16

4x Cryptic Command
3x Spreading Seas
3x Familiars Ruse
2x Spell Snare
2x Remand
2x Boomerang

//Artifacts// 4

4x Aether Vial

//Lands// 21

17x Island
4x Mutavault



//Sideboard//

4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Sower of Temptation
2x Dismember
2x Rachet Bomb
2x Spell Snare
1x Threads of Disloyality
1x Boomerang
1x Sygg River Cutthroat

_Paradox_
08-20-2011, 10:44 PM
@ wereodile - I like boomerang in theory and might try it out but i think u are running too many counterspells and the wrong sort for this deck as well. There was a discussion about modern merfolk with alex B. and everyone came to the consensus that spell snare, Remand and mana leak werent the type of counters it needed if any other than cc. U have to be aggressive and the only counterspell other than cc that i think may belong in the md is some spell pierce to stop some of the combos and WoG/Damnation.

Crysthorn
08-21-2011, 07:31 PM
Also, a white splashed Merfolk might perform better. You pick up several tools, including Path to Exile, Sejiri Merfolk, and a more complete sideboard.
I highly doubt that white splash could be better - here's why:

1) Sejiri Merfolk is crap, don't even try it. Against control or combo it's either non-factor or win-more, leaving us only with aggro - and how do you think a 2/1 first striker will perform against Wild Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs and KotRs backed up with a ton of removal? Even if you have a lord out, they'll either have bigger creatures anyway or they'll just burn it. Moreover, Sejiri Merfolk requires playing with fetches and shocklands (Wanderwine Hubs, Seachrome Coasts etc. won't work here), which pain us - and paining yourself is the last thing you want to do when facing Zoo.

2) Path to Exile is much more reasonable than Sejiri Merfolk, but Dismember invalidated most of its uses. Before New Phyrexia you had to splash a second color if you needed removal: now in many cases you can just add 2-3 Dismembers and call it a day.

3) Sygg, River Guide is quite powerful card and having 2 or even 3 copies could be very useful. The problem with this card though is its hunger for mana - it made sense back in the day in Standard or Extended when Merfolk played 24 lands but with only 20 lands i just don't see it.

4) Sideboard options: sure, Reveillark is fun and all but Modern is much faster than old Standard or Extended and casting a 5 CMC spell with 20 lands isn't exactly reliable. Burrenton Forge-Tender was nice against Volcanic Fallout but against Punishing Fire... well, not that much.

TL;DR: With slower, 23- or 24-land version (Cryptic Commands and all that) splashing white for Syggs, PtEs and better sideboard might make sense but with fast, 20- or 21-land version it's better to stick with monoU.

Phoenix Ignition
08-30-2011, 02:42 AM
So I might as well chime in seeing as I just took down a small local tournament with the 'folk. I decided to run them because in my testing of other decks I found that nearly every other one is just too damn inconsistent, and generally loses to itself about 1 out of 5 games at least, whereas mono blue merfolk won't do that.

Here's my list:
// Lands
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
15 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge

// Creatures
3 Coralhelm Commander
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Cursecatcher
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Merrow Reejerey

// Spells
2 Dismember
2 Spreading Seas
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Spreading Seas
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Peer Through Depths
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Bribery
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Threads of Disloyalty

I took out Aether Vial because the main awesome thing about it in legacy is that it gets around countermagic, whereas in Modern I'd much rather just have higher threat density.

Wakethrasher was amazing in testing, but I never drew him during the tournament.

Brief Report:

Round 1 Time sieve/ tezzeret combo.
Game 1: I beat him down before he gets much going. Howling mine gives me too many good cards.
Game 2: I misplay by not reading tezzeret's ultimate (assumed it cost more)
Game 3: I turn 4 kill him on the play.

Round 2 Green white aggro
Game 1: I take a lot of damage before I stabilize with 4 lords out and eventually alpha strike
Game 2: He keeps a 1 lander without drawing a 2nd very quickly (but has double path + white lightning bolt thing)

Round 3 Big zoo
This guy think's he's really good and after losing bitches for the rest of the time I was in earshot :-(
Game 1: He's on the play and quickly gets 3 goyfs out (with the help of GSZ) and I don't get a relic
Game 2: We both play creatures but Relic keeps his double goyf and knight of the reliquary tiny. He hits double bloodbraid but doesn't understand that he can't continue attacking with them if he wants to win. He continue's the aggro role when he really doesn't have the resources. With relic's help his creatures are smaller than mine and I win.
Game 3: Here's the life totals:
Me Him
20 20
16 18
11 15
5 12
1 0
He's on the play and gets out an early nacatl which I dismember. He then plays turn 3 Elspeth and begins bashing me with exalted flying soldiers. I get to hit him with a 3/3 mutavault while he's attacking me. He also drops teeg so to win I need to echoing truth it and then drop a cryptic command, tapping his shit and bouncing his manland. Then I use my other echoing truth to bounce the token he made and alpha strike him for exactly 12.

Choices:
Relic: Half of the combo decks use graveyard recursion. Goyfs and Knights are still the best creatures of the format. Grim Lavamancer HURTS. Cycles for 2. I think it's an amazing main deck card.

Spreading Seas: Worried about 12 post, didn't run into one. Also Grove of Burnwillows/punishing fire.

No Vials: Vials are always hit or miss, you need the right amount of creatures and the vial at the right time for it to be amazing. Without any filtering, I just felt like I'd rather be casting fishies.

Cryptic Command was made for this type of deck.

Wake Thrasher is great even against decks that run a lot of removal, since they will likely be targeting your lords before you drop him and hit for 8ish.

Sturtzilla
08-30-2011, 11:22 AM
@ Pheonix Ignition

Thanks for the deck list and report. I have a handful of questions for you, if you would indulge them. Thanks in advance.

1. How was Wake Thrasher? I had forgotten about this guy. He seems like he could be really great.

2. How was Cryptic as the only counter spell?

3. Is there a specific purpose Minamo is used for?

4. Could you please explain your board? I could be completely wrong but it seems a little random.

Phoenix Ignition
08-30-2011, 01:11 PM
@ Pheonix Ignition

Thanks for the deck list and report. I have a handful of questions for you, if you would indulge them. Thanks in advance.

1. How was Wake Thrasher? I had forgotten about this guy. He seems like he could be really great.

2. How was Cryptic as the only counter spell?

3. Is there a specific purpose Minamo is used for?

4. Could you please explain your board? I could be completely wrong but it seems a little random.

1. Wake Thrasher is a great creature who I only used because I wanted to increase threat density. Some decks have enough removal to deal with your first 2-3 lords (although for some reason silvergill was one of the highest removed creatures yesterday), and merfolk generally need lords to be able to race someone. That's where Wakethrasher's spot is, a trump card after removal is gone, because no creature (except emrakul) can actually block him and live. The only reason I beat zoo (aside from cryptic command) is because for every removal spell he drew I drew a creature spell. For every creature spell he drew I also drew a creature, and having answers is not as good as having threats.

2. My strategy was to just swarm for the win before people could respond. I don't like playing merfolk without free counterspells and I hate disrupting shoal, it REALLY isn't the same as FoW, you have to pitch good cards to it. Cryptic Command itself is just incredible, tapping an opposing army to alpha strike will win you so many games. I kind of relied on Cursecatcher to slow down combo decks, and having more folk can let you win on turn 4 before they get a chance. Also in the board you should run some sort of Spell Snare/Mindbreak Trap for the decks you really need counters against.

3. Minamo is a cute 1-of to make Wakethrasher huge. You use it to untap itself, so for each island you get one more untap trigger. It can make Wakethrasher bigger to block (or perhaps surprise an opponent who tries to burn him) or make him even bigger to swing. It will most likely never win you a game, but with 15 islands already I didn't really care about having a non-basic in there (if anyone wastes a tectonic on this instead of a mutavault you should be very happy anyway).

4. The sideboard was random because Modern isn't a defined format so I just tried to cover all angles. Mindbreak Trap helps against a lot of combos and exiling Emrakul in 12 post, Bribery is just silly against 12 post or Through the Breach decks. Grave hate is necessary since so many combos and decks run off of their yards (Don't forget you can really slow down Melira combo by removing their finks before it comes back in play). Peer Through Depths was there to try to find me any sideboarded hate (Bribery, spell pierce, mindbreak trap, or even echoing truth against empty the warrens), but is admittedly not a good sideboard card. Threads and Echoing truth were for Zoo, though ET is good against many decks.

I really like echoing truth, some people don't think and grab 3 Goyfs with their GSZ's and then get blown out by ET. It could be main if you don't like the spreading seas spot.

Sturtzilla
08-30-2011, 01:42 PM
Thanks for the response. Sounds like a pretty good setup. I am excited to see how the metagame develops over the next few weeks. I think I am going to use some of your ideas for my build. I really like the Wake Thrasher idea and the dropping of Aether Vial; however, I am not sure how I feel about the spells and their distribution. I will let you guys know what I come up with.

Davran
01-27-2012, 02:56 PM
It seems merfolk is trying to make a comeback now that Grove of the Burnwillows is banned. I've been tinkering with a list something like this:

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Rejeery
2x Phantasmal Image

4x Rune Snag
4x Spell Pierce
4x Vapor Snag
4x Aether Vial

18x Island
4x Mutavault

Unfortunately, it seems like Jund is quickly becoming a "deck to beat" in the metagame, and I'm not sure this list can get there against them. I have been debating replacing some number of Vapor Snags with Spreading Seas...but I'm still undecided.

Anyone have any thoughts or advice?

Bignasty197
01-27-2012, 03:14 PM
I think Merfolk would benefit from a White splash for Path to Exile and possibly Mark of Asylum or Forge Tender in the board.

Wereodile
01-27-2012, 03:31 PM
Phoenix mentioned using Cryptic Command to tap down the opposing armies and alpha strike. What about a card like Sleep? I know it's the same CMC as Cryptic Command and doesn't happen to have the "toolbox" built into it like Cryptic but getting 2 full unopposed combat phases should be a win every time.

DukeDemonKn1ght
01-27-2012, 04:58 PM
I think Merfolk would benefit from a White splash for Path to Exile and possibly Mark of Asylum or Forge Tender in the board.

Yes. Wanderwine Hub actually looks semi-decent in this format. Also, Journey to Nowhere and/or probably Oblivion Ring could be worth exploring as additional removal.

Some number of Tectonic Edges and Spreading Seas are probably going to be a necessary evil, although I don't claim to know much about the current tempo of Modern, so I have no idea how these are going to compare to Wasteland.

Also, as far as one-drops are concerned, is Cursecatcher really that good in Modern these days? (I genuinely don't know, but perhaps Cosi's Trickster would be better, since he's a little more aggressive, and most decks have fetches?)

chags
01-27-2012, 06:42 PM
I've been working on a U/B fish list since punishing fire got banned and I really like where the deck is at. Two weeks ago I top 8ed a gpt with it but the tournament was low on attendance. I've found that in modern the counterspells are very mediocre and I am not a fan of losing tempo to leave mana open for mana leak. Spell pierce was often mediocre, especially with affinity and splinter twin as the top two decks. I decided I want a black splash because Dark Confidant adds much needed card advantage. Once I knew I was playing I decided to cut the counters for a removal suite and some thoughtseizes. As of right now the list is as follows:

4x Mutavault
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Watery Grave
6x Island

4x Aether Vial
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Cursecatcher
4x Dark Confidant
2x Phantasmal Image
1x Voidmage Prodigy
1x Dismember
2x Doom Blade
2x Smother
3x Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
2x Spellskite
3x Flashfreeze
2x Echoing Truth
1x Dismember
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Annul


Yes the voidmage prodigy is cute and probably unnecessary, that being said he won me two match decisive games at the GPT. When you have no lords sometimes it is nice to turn useless cursecatchers and silvergil adepts into counterspells. It could easily be a thoughtseize or something else useful. The sideboard was heavily metaed toward affinity, jund, twin, and zoo. Dark Confidant has been amazing, he other dies and they have less removal for your lords or he gets you way ahead. Phantasmal image is very good and I don't know why most modern fish lists aren't running them, seems wrong. The removal has been much better then the counterspells were and thoughtseize is fantastic, especially in a format as unpredictable as modern. I really like this deck and it is what I'll be playing for the majority of the PTQ season.

Davran
01-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Yes. Wanderwine Hub actually looks semi-decent in this format. Also, Journey to Nowhere and/or probably Oblivion Ring could be worth exploring as additional removal.

Some number of Tectonic Edges and Spreading Seas are probably going to be a necessary evil, although I don't claim to know much about the current tempo of Modern, so I have no idea how these are going to compare to Wasteland.

Also, as far as one-drops are concerned, is Cursecatcher really that good in Modern these days? (I genuinely don't know, but perhaps Cosi's Trickster would be better, since he's a little more aggressive, and most decks have fetches?)

I haven't has much opportunity for testing lately...but I mostly agree with you about the Tec Edges or Spreading Seas given that our worst matchups are 3+ color decks (Jund and Zoo). I was actually considering Ghost Quarter since it's the most Wasteland-esque option, and decks like Jund run at most 2 basics...so more often than not it is just a wasteland. I'd trade a Treetop Village for a forest any day.

As far as Cursecatcher...that really depends. It seems like we're most likely to get into a counter war with something like Twin, and having access to that extra "counter" might just do it. Also, decks like Jund play piles and piles of removal, and I'd much rather lose my Cursecatcher to a Maelstrom Pulse/Terminate than my Commander.

As far as Trickster...that is an interesting option that I totally forgot existed. The question is whether we want to try and stick to the aggro-control plan of the legacy list, or transition more toward the aggro plan. I suppose it's better removal bait than Cursecatcher. It was probably better when Ponder was still legal. I'm not sure how big it will actually get off of fetch lands alone.

Phoenix Ignition
01-27-2012, 08:40 PM
Phoenix mentioned using Cryptic Command to tap down the opposing armies and alpha strike. What about a card like Sleep? I know it's the same CMC as Cryptic Command and doesn't happen to have the "toolbox" built into it like Cryptic but getting 2 full unopposed combat phases should be a win every time.

While sleep does the tapping better I wouldn't use it. Tapping is just one of the many things Cryptic can do for you (plus it gives you Tap + other thing which is obviously huge). I probably used it as a counter spell and bounce spell as frequently as I used it as a tap spell.

Really it's just an all around good card to use when you're out of merfolk to play. In regards to Aether Vial's inclusion in the lists I've been seeing I really think you guys should reconsider. There just aren't enough cards countering our dudes to care about sneaking them in, and then you're using them strictly as mana ramps. Most of the time just having an extra creature in that slot is going to be much better since you have to fight through so much removal in a lot of these popular lists.

In decks like affinity there is pretty much 0 reason to run Aether Vial. I just don't think it's worth using in Modern since there is no Force/Daze/Counterspell decks that really can counter everything. Sideboard if you're really scared of running into blue control, but come on, that's what this deck does best (and not just because of vials).

Davran
01-28-2012, 11:54 AM
In regards to Aether Vial's inclusion in the lists I've been seeing I really think you guys should reconsider. There just aren't enough cards countering our dudes to care about sneaking them in, and then you're using them strictly as mana ramps. Most of the time just having an extra creature in that slot is going to be much better since you have to fight through so much removal in a lot of these popular lists.

Vial isn't here to dodge counterspells as much as it is to allow us to play a lord while still holding up counter mana of our own. In some cases it allows us to cheat a little on islands and still be able to play 2+ fish per turn.

In addition, it gives you a little more "game" against your opponent in that he'll have to make his play decisions without knowing whether or not you'll vial in another creature at EoT. We also get some more options in terms of combat math like vialing in a lord to pump our guys and block if needed.

I guess what I'm getting at is that Vial is a key part of making this deck work in its current form.

chags
01-29-2012, 06:47 AM
Have you ever played fish? The fact that vial gets around counters is just a nice perk, we play vial as a way to gain tempo and drop as many dudes as possible. This deck is awful with few lords in plau and runs too few lands and too many two drops to cast enough of them per turn to keep up with zoo. You often want vial against aggro in order to keep up with their clock. The whole being able to interact while still dropping threats thing seems important too....

TheyCallMeTim
01-30-2012, 01:19 PM
Seems to me that Aether Vial is more important due to the lack of free permission. This way we can still put guys into play while leaving mana back for Spell Pierce, Mana Leak or what have you.

Mr. Safety
01-30-2012, 02:38 PM
Seems to me that Aether Vial is more important due to the lack of free permission. This way we can still put guys into play while leaving mana back for Spell Pierce, Mana Leak or what have you.

Bingo...lay threats whilst having removal/countermagic mana open. With Bitterblossom being banned from the format, Vial is the best source of free threats while playing draw-go and controlling the game.

I would say that Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, and Remand are the best counterspells for Merfolk in modern. Path is likely the best removal, making white the natural splash color while also opening up Sygg, River Guide. Black is also fairly sexy for Vendetta, Smother, Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, and targeted discard like Thoughtsieze. Sygg, River Cutthroat is also a decent option for the black splash.

chags
01-30-2012, 10:08 PM
Bingo...lay threats whilst having removal/countermagic mana open. With Bitterblossom being banned from the format, Vial is the best source of free threats while playing draw-go and controlling the game.

I would say that Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, and Remand are the best counterspells for Merfolk in modern. Path is likely the best removal, making white the natural splash color while also opening up Sygg, River Guide. Black is also fairly sexy for Vendetta, Smother, Go for the Throat, Doom Blade, and targeted discard like Thoughtsieze. Sygg, River Cutthroat is also a decent option for the black splash.


Cryptic seems pretty awful, it just cost too much and is too low impact for this type of deck. Unless you have vial in play it is going to cost you some tempo and even then you probably have another lord you could just be dropping or a coralhem to level or mutavaults to activate etc etc. Also sygg, river cutthroat seems decent but no mention of Dark confidant in a black splash? He is THE reason I went with a black splash over white, the removal suite just happened to be awesome. I've found thoughtsieze to be great in testing, especially while the meta is young and unpredictable to an extent.

Mr. Safety
01-31-2012, 08:39 AM
Cryptic seems pretty awful, it just cost too much and is too low impact for this type of deck. Unless you have vial in play it is going to cost you some tempo and even then you probably have another lord you could just be dropping or a coralhem to level or mutavaults to activate etc etc. Also sygg, river cutthroat seems decent but no mention of Dark confidant in a black splash? He is THE reason I went with a black splash over white, the removal suite just happened to be awesome. I've found thoughtsieze to be great in testing, especially while the meta is young and unpredictable to an extent.

Cryptic in a mono-blue shell makes a lot of sense for merfolk. It fills a vital role of providing utility answers to opposing aggro decks. With or without Vial, leaving turn 4 open for Cryptic can be devastating to opposing decks. Bounce and counter? Counter and Draw? Bounce and Draw? Tap down and draw? Counter and tap down? There isn't anything on the list that tops out at 4 mana so you aren't trading an opportunity for something less powerful (like losing your chance at playing JTMS, which isn't an option anyways) Sure you could double up on Lord of Atlantis or Silvergill Adept or play a 3-mana lord with Spell Snare/Spell Pierce backup...but that's why Cryptic is good. If you don't have the beefy turn option, you can swing the game with Cryptic. Cryptic is also quite good against combo decks (few and far between, but still there.) If you were able to land a Cursecatcher then Cryptic becomes a great answer to Splinter Twin on turn 4. They may have Dispel/Remand handy...but they will have to tap out to protect their combo play. That's where Cursecatcher can step in and win the counter war.

In a black splash, Cryptic is probably not great simply because of Bob. Four life for an unneccessary counterspell is bad strategy. Thoughtseize fills the disruption role better and doesn't hurt as much if it's flipped by Bob.

TheyCallMeTim
01-31-2012, 09:10 AM
Cryptic seems pretty awful, it just cost too much and is too low impact for this type of deck.



If you don't have the beefy turn option, you can swing the game with Cryptic.

I just took a list running 2 Cryptic Command, 3 Mana Leak, 4 Spell Pierce and 1 Disrupting Shoal (need more) to a local weekly and went a mediocre 2-2. However, Cryptic Command flat out won games. Best play of the night was when I had a Commander exiled by Oblivion Ring and facing a Mirran Crusader on the other side of the table. With him at 10 when I choose the modes "bounce target permanent" and "tap all creatures" in order to get the alpha strike in for exactly lethal by running right up to level 4 and smashing with Mutavaults. Yeah, that's right, I had 8 fucking land.

Davran
01-31-2012, 10:53 AM
I would say that Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, and Remand are the best counterspells for Merfolk in modern.

I'm not so sure about Remand. It's nice for gaining tempo, but this isn't that kind of deck. The last thing I want is to Remand a Goyf and still be dead to it the following turn.

I think there is some untapped potential in Rune Snag - it occupies the Mana Leak spot and serves the same purpose in the early to middle game without being completely dead in the late game since it "scales up".

I've been tinkering with the following mana base:

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
14 Island

I haven't had a whole lot of opportunity to test actual games, but it seems to produce keepable hands most of the time while goldfishing. Ghost Quarter seems like a better option than Tectonic Edge given how greedy many of the mana bases are in the format.

Mr. Safety
01-31-2012, 12:18 PM
Remand gives you time to combo out...it is easily the best counterspell for Splinter Twin (aside from Dispel so their combo goes off without a hitch). The format is governed by bombs, of this I am sure about. Making someone pay twice for a big-swing effect is game changing.

Spell Snare handles Goyfs and other 2-mana threats, Cryptic Command provides game-swinging effects, and Remand allows you to control tempo while replacing itself. In an aggressive deck like Merfolk, it seems that Remand is better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag. Just my opinion...you really need the clock to pressure your opponent to take full advantage of Remand. I think merfolk has that clock, especially if you get an early Aether Vial onto the battlefield.

Davran
01-31-2012, 12:55 PM
Remand gives you time to combo out...it is easily the best counterspell for Splinter Twin (aside from Dispel so their combo goes off without a hitch). The format is governed by bombs, of this I am sure about. Making someone pay twice for a big-swing effect is game changing.

Spell Snare handles Goyfs and other 2-mana threats, Cryptic Command provides game-swinging effects, and Remand allows you to control tempo while replacing itself. In an aggressive deck like Merfolk, it seems that Remand is better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag. Just my opinion...you really need the clock to pressure your opponent to take full advantage of Remand. I think merfolk has that clock, especially if you get an early Aether Vial onto the battlefield.

Except this isn't a combo deck...so there is no "comboing out". The game plan here is to be aggro-control using vial to play our threats and otherwise controlling the game with countermagic. Remand doesn't actually help that plan. It just delays whatever problem spell we needed to counter for 1 turn, forcing us to deal with it again in short order.

The deck can have a fast clock, sure...but our creatures don't have haste or evasion (in most cases), so we need to be sure the board is clear and will stay that way.

chags
01-31-2012, 01:48 PM
So in a format with no good way to attack mana bases (or have your management base attacked) what is the appeal of running mono blue and having no great ways to answer creatures? Whether you go black or white not playing a splash just seems wrong. The deck benefits so much from a splash without being hindered unless you play cryptic but a splash seems way better then playing cryptic.

TheyCallMeTim
01-31-2012, 07:07 PM
So in a format with no good way to attack mana bases (or have your management base attacked) what is the appeal of running mono blue and having no great ways to answer creatures? Whether you go black or white not playing a splash just seems wrong. The deck benefits so much from a splash without being hindered unless you play cryptic but a splash seems way better then playing cryptic.

Or splash AND play Cryptic.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Cosi's Trickster
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Cryptic Command

13 Island
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast

chags
02-01-2012, 12:02 AM
I don't know how I feel about disrupting shoal just yet, most of our curve sits very heavily at 2 and if you want to counter 2 mana spells spell snare does it way better. Spell pierce is far too conditional in a format with no real control decks and where the top combo deck involves using creatures to win. I've already stated more then once why I dislike cryptic and won't play it. I don't like path because this is a tempo deck and giving your opponent extra lands feels pretty "meh" compared to say, smother which answers nearly every creature that gives this deck problems. I think the black splash is much stronger then the white splash, especially if you are only splashing for removal. Cosi's trickster could be a better one drop in a format with few combo decks and even fewer control strategies, I would not play it and cursecatcher but it may be better then cursecatcher. I don't really get why everyone cut phantasmal image from their lists, he is just as vulnerable as he is in legacy and just as good as he is in legacy. The card is nuts and in my opinion definitely belongs in the list, especially in those awful mono blue lists running sovereign for the sake of having an extra lord. All of that being said I like your list way better then any of the mono blue lists being suggested, there is no reason to not have a splash.

Mr. Safety
02-01-2012, 08:28 AM
Except this isn't a combo deck...so there is no "comboing out". The game plan here is to be aggro-control using vial to play our threats and otherwise controlling the game with countermagic. Remand doesn't actually help that plan. It just delays whatever problem spell we needed to counter for 1 turn, forcing us to deal with it again in short order.

The deck can have a fast clock, sure...but our creatures don't have haste or evasion (in most cases), so we need to be sure the board is clear and will stay that way.

You're not trying to keep the board clear...your deck can't do that without wiping effects and targeted removal. No matter how you splash/tweak a merfolk deck, it will never be good at keeping the board clear so it can attack through (with the exception of Cryptic Command tapping down all blockers, and I'm already a big supporter of 4x Cryptic in modern merfolk)

The right approach is to protect your superior threats. That's why Remand is good, it protects your board presence for a turn, allowing you to make big attacks. You damn well better be playing other forms of countermagic in a merfolk deck, otherwise you're sitting on a bad list anyways. Spell Pierce and Cryptic Command are both great options to supplement Remand in merfolk. When they tap out for Damnation, you Remand it and draw a card. Next turn, you attack big and leave your mana open for Cryptic/Spell Pierce so you can deal with it permanently. I think Remand x2-3 is good in Merfolk as an early game tempo stall and a mid-game 'get out of jail' card when they tap out for their wipers. It isn't a 4-of by any means...but I'd play 2 of them in merfolk for sure.

EDIT: How freakin' sweet would a reprint of Daze be for modern? Got my fingers crossed...

Davran
02-01-2012, 09:24 AM
When they tap out for Damnation, you Remand it and draw a card. Next turn, you attack big and leave your mana open for Cryptic/Spell Pierce so you can deal with it permanently.

Why not just Spell Pierce it the first time instead of giving your opponent a pseudo 2-for-1? I get what you're saying here, I really do, but I can think of plenty of situations where we'll be holding the Remand and we won't have/draw into another counter, especially when the list is only running 8-12 of them to begin with.


EDIT: How freakin' sweet would a reprint of Daze be for modern? Got my fingers crossed...

It would be pretty amazing to be sure. The format desperately needs some efficient countermagic. It would also be fun to hear all the standard players whining about being blown out by Daze...but maybe that's just me.

TheyCallMeTim
02-01-2012, 09:41 AM
I think the black splash is much stronger then the white splash, especially if you are only splashing for removal.

I like Ethersworn Canonist from the board, along with other possibilities.


Cosi's trickster could be a better one drop in a format with few combo decks and even fewer control strategies, I would not play it and cursecatcher but it may be better then cursecatcher.

He's good with Path and helps deversify the CMC for Shoal. Which, btw, you can pay for the X in later turns instead of removing a card.


I don't really get why everyone cut phantasmal image from their lists, he is just as vulnerable as he is in legacy and just as good as he is in legacy. The card is nuts and in my opinion definitely belongs in the list, especially in those awful mono blue lists running sovereign for the sake of having an extra lord.

My primary reason is that there isn't too many legendary threats in modern and I prefer a few extra counter spells.


with the exception of Cryptic Command tapping down all blockers, and I'm already a big supporter of 4x Cryptic in modern merfolk.

I'm sort of with cgas here, 4x Cryptic is definitely too much.


With all that said, there are alot of good points made here. Believe me, I don't like the -1 that Path gives you. But it's at the right price and the right time, every time. And when given the choice, especially early game, most opponents have to debate whether or not to +1 my Trickster.

Mr. Safety
02-01-2012, 10:00 AM
I would play this for modern merfolk:

4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Inkfathom Infiltrator
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Grimoire Thief
2x Coralhelm Commander

4x Aether Vial
3x Spell Pierce
4x Cryptic Command
3x Remand

3x Mutavault
20x Island

Sideboard:
4x Echoing Truth
3x Spell Snare
4x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Dragon's Claw


I tooled around with Springleaf Drum, Surgespanner, and Grimoire Theif in extended a while back. The acceleration and synergy with were nice. Vial wasn't available then, so Drum was my replacement. I had mixed results (it was a time when Faeries was dominating and Doran was really hard to beat)

jschro
02-01-2012, 10:32 AM
Hey, I'm new to the forum.. couple of guys at http://www.mtgfanatic.com/?ForumReferrerID=104073 said they use this site so I came to check it out. Anyway, I'm just starting out in Legacy and have been piecing my own fish deck together for a bit now. Moc065 and Mr. Safety have been valuable resources for me on the other forum.

I'm here to kind of soak up the information, and hopefully at some point contribute. I have one question for you all..

If I don't have the cash for Mutavaults yet, should I bother playing Mishra's Factory in their place until I can pick a couple of them up?

TheyCallMeTim
02-01-2012, 11:03 AM
If I don't have the cash for Mutavaults yet, should I bother playing Mishra's Factory in their place until I can pick a couple of them up?

My thought is no. I would run +2 Island and 2 more threats, Cosi's Trickster or Wake Thrasher probably being your best bets.

Mr. Safety
02-01-2012, 12:21 PM
Hey, I'm new to the forum.. couple of guys at http://www.mtgfanatic.com/?ForumReferrerID=104073 said they use this site so I came to check it out. Anyway, I'm just starting out in Legacy and have been piecing my own fish deck together for a bit now. Moc065 and Mr. Safety have been valuable resources for me on the other forum.

I'm here to kind of soak up the information, and hopefully at some point contribute. I have one question for you all..

If I don't have the cash for Mutavaults yet, should I bother playing Mishra's Factory in their place until I can pick a couple of them up?

Dude...this is the modern forum. You're talking legacy. :wink:

jschro
02-01-2012, 02:00 PM
@Mr. Safety
See, such a NOOB. I looked at the banner above.. saw it's "your source for legacy".. already messing things up. Did you expect anything less?

Davran
02-01-2012, 02:30 PM
@Mr. Safety: Grimoire Thief is interesting. I like the possibilities against combo decks. I wonder how reliable it is? It seems like the absolute worst if you peel 3 lands and feed your opponent business spells he otherwise would never have seen.

I'm 100% opposed to only 2x Coralhelm Commander though. In a world of Goyf/Knight of the Reliquary decks having a flying creature is nearly the same as having an unblockable creature. I would definitely switch out the Infiltrators for them...same mana cost and a much higher potential upside. The extra 1 toughness can be relevant too if cards like Gut Shot transition to this format.

4 Cryptic Commands is probably too many, but only testing will iron that number out.

Regarding the sideboard - I'm wondering why you didn't include some number of Kiras (not a criticism, just looking for your opinion). Personally, I think she gives us some much needed game against Jund post-board since they are likely on the "side in more removal" plan. She also blanks cards like Path to Exile from other decks.

Also, what are the Dragon's Claws for? Surely there has to be a better option for RDW...

Mr. Safety
02-01-2012, 04:25 PM
@Mr. Safety: Grimoire Thief is interesting. I like the possibilities against combo decks. I wonder how reliable it is? It seems like the absolute worst if you peel 3 lands and feed your opponent business spells he otherwise would never have seen.

I'm 100% opposed to only 2x Coralhelm Commander though. In a world of Goyf/Knight of the Reliquary decks having a flying creature is nearly the same as having an unblockable creature. I would definitely switch out the Infiltrators for them...same mana cost and a much higher potential upside. The extra 1 toughness can be relevant too if cards like Gut Shot transition to this format.

4 Cryptic Commands is probably too many, but only testing will iron that number out.

Regarding the sideboard - I'm wondering why you didn't include some number of Kiras (not a criticism, just looking for your opinion). Personally, I think she gives us some much needed game against Jund post-board since they are likely on the "side in more removal" plan. She also blanks cards like Path to Exile from other decks.

Also, what are the Dragon's Claws for? Surely there has to be a better option for RDW...

Kira should probably be maindeck...most likely the best route would be:

-4 Inkfathom Infiltrator
2x Coralhelm Commander
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner


Dragon's Claw was just a shot in the dark...RDW will be a tough matchup, for sure. What the right answer to it is still eluding me. By dedicating 4 slots in the SB means I'll have them for the right option when I find it.

Honestly, the white splash is looking good for the sake of the RDW matchup, for these cards:

Circle of Protection: Red
Burrenton Forge-Tender

DukeDemonKn1ght
02-01-2012, 06:58 PM
I'm pretty firmly in the "there's not a compelling enough reason not to splash" camp. Seems like the worthwhile colors to consider are white, black, and maaaybe red. I do tend to think that white is the most flexible in terms of what it offers, but I think each splash takes the deck in a different direction. White gives the best creature removal, and perhaps the most flexible sideboard hate options (disenchant effects, aggro hate, etc) -- it seems like the most controlling of the splashes to me. Black gives us the ubiquitous Bob and targeted discard, as well as second-best creature removal. It's definitely a good option, but I worry a little bit about the loss of life from Confidant and Thoughtseize, in what seems like a pretty aggro-defined format. Red, I'm not entirely sure about. But I feel like adding burn to the deck is a much more viable consideration in Modern than it would be in Legacy.

Anyways, here's what I'm probably going to start testing for the time being:

White Splash Merfs:
2 Cursecatcher
3 Cosi's Trickster
1 Sygg, River Guide
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Mutavault
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Wanderwine Hub
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mystic Gate
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island

I would really need to tweak this list and test it before I could suggest a sideboard, but good options are Kataki, War's Wage,, Meddling Mage, Burrenton Forge-Tender, CoP: Red, Spell Pierce, Spreading Seas, maybe a couple Cryptic Commands, etc. Also, taking a quick look at it, I probably shouldn't be maindecking both Phantasmal Images and equipment spells, but testing will tell which needs to go.

I really feel that trying to counterspell everything in this format is a doomed prospect for this, or really any other deck in Modern. Maybe I'm just spoiled and used to playing like 90% of my counters for no mana. But if you want to get ahead on card advantage playing a fishy type of deck that uses a good amount of counterspells, I'd try one of the Snapcaster/ Dark Confidant based builds I've seen that seem to be doing pretty well.

I think Merfolk's strengths as a deck, if it's gonna work in this format, are its redundancies and its ability to play a very light control suite to back up its dumb army of self-pumping catfish. We shouldn't expect to transition the Legacy Merfolk deck's strategies directly to Modern, we gotta look at the format and figure out how to position ourselves against it.

Mr. Safety
02-01-2012, 09:00 PM
I think Merfolk's strengths as a deck, if it's gonna work in this format, are its redundancies and its ability to play a very light control suite to back up its dumb army of self-pumping catfish. We shouldn't expect to transition the Legacy Merfolk deck's strategies directly to Modern, we gotta look at the format and figure out how to position ourselves against it.

This is the best argument AGAINST a splash, actually. If you want redundancy, pack your deck full of dudes (my list above is heavily slanted at 2mana for Vial as well) and use the best counterspells to protect them.

Aether Vial is MORE important in modern than legacy...because of the very fact that counterspells do indeed cost mana rather than being free (force, daze.)

I see leaving 4 lands open for Cryptic Command carries a lot of weight, not only in true card advantage but in virtual card advantage (does he have Cryptic or not?)BUT, I will be testing my list extensively to see if I'm right or not. We shall see.

chags
02-02-2012, 09:49 AM
@Theycallmetim I can see the synergy between trickster and path being pretty solid. That does make the white splash a bit more tempting but I'm just too attached to my dark confidants to swap out of black. Ethersworn canonist is good but I like thoughtseize as it is useful in more circumstances and this format is pretty open right now. Yes I know you can pay for disrupting shoal but the point of playing it is that it is functionally the only "free" counter in the format, therefor I can only imagine you intend to pitch cards to it a decent amount of the time. As far as white lists go I prefer yours to any of the others posted, I'm still not ready to switch back to counter magic yet though removal is just too good right now. In your list I'd maybe consider dropping 2 cursecatcher for 2 phantasmal image just because of the versatility. Copying their biggest beater or a lord is always great, killing legends is occasionally relevant in this format.

@Mr.saftey If you are hellbent on playing cryptic I still think you should not play 4, a couner package similar to Theycallmetim's is what I expect will work out best. Remand is great if you are about to alpha strike for the win but in that case any counter wins you the game right there. If you have a bunch of dudes out and they damnation you don't need to draw another dude you, already have a board full of them, you just need to counter that damnation. Conversely if you are low on pressure and you remand they will just recast it and *best* case scenario you draw a merfolk but lose any you had on the board. I'd rather draw one less merfolk and keep the 2-3+ that were on the board personally. Playing less then 4 coralhelm commander is always wrong, he is our best way of coming back from board sweepers and evasion is incredibly important. He is also our biggest creature, not having 4 in the deck is wrong.

@The idea of removal instead of counters
Counters at some point will be a must in fish but right now the format is very fast and dominated by creatures. Jund, Zoo, Affinity, Boros, martyr, Delver decks...the majority of the format is creatures, even the top combo deck depends on creatures to win. The decks you want lots of counters against (tron, gifts, teachings) should be your good match ups already, the whole point of fish is that it preys on blue decks. Unless counter strategies become more popular and adapt new tools I find that a removal package with some discard and a great CA engine go much further then some conditional counters.

On a side note I'm pumped there is this much solid discussion going on over this deck. I did not expect this deck to be a popular choice, it is nice to have some other perspectives on the archetype.

Pltnmngl
06-29-2012, 05:10 PM
I've got to admit that Master of the Pearl Trident has intrigued me for Modern. Granted, it doesn't fix any of it's problems. Nor do I think Merfolk will be well-positioned. However, I'm positive that a lot of the deck's worst aggro matchups will die down next season.

Just throwing that out there.

randomly.anonymous
07-02-2012, 10:28 PM
Does having 8 Islandwalking lords + some combination of Sea's Claim/Spreading Seas/Architect's Will make this deck playable again?

Seems like turning Jund's/Tron's lands into islands is pretty disruptive. Combined with Vial and something durdly like Gut Shot/Dismember, you would be able to out-tempo them, as combat will be mostly non-interactive.

chags
07-11-2012, 04:27 PM
I 4-0ed a modern daily yesterday with Merfolk and have seen a few other people do the same, it also top 8ed a modo PE. You can view my list here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4061194(Chagsal0t, 3rd place). I decided to test out mono blue since last season I only ran UB and honestly I didn't want to shell out for bobs and the lands if the list wasn't competitive. As it turns out mono u has been working just fine, 2 cryptics is definitely the right number and I leak spell pierce and mana leak as my counters. Spellskite as a two of has done quite well and is pretty necessary against jund/junk/burn/wur delver/ rug delver. Phantasmal image is very good right now with kiki jiki decks making up a big percentage of the online meta as well as GR tron being a deck. I'm considering testing cosi's trickster over cursecatcher but in the current meta cursecatcher is valuable against a few of the popular decks.

As far as the new lord is concerned I'm going to test with -2 vapor snag, -2 merrow reejery for +4 Merfolk of the Pearl Trident. Merrow Reejery triggers have won me many games but islandwalk and 2cmc is probably more beneficial. It may end up that I miss vapor snag and just cut reejery all together instead but right now vapor snag has felt pretty mediocre and I would rather just run more threats. I don't know that I think using the spreading seas plan is necessary and it may prove too cute but it will also probably steal some games that otherwise may be lost. I can't really see how I would fit it in my current list without cutting countermagic and that is something I don't think I'm comfortable with.

Phoenix Ignition
07-11-2012, 04:53 PM
I wouldn't cut Reejerey for the new lord. His trigger is way too damn good, in both giving you the nuts hands where you play everything by turn 4 and by tapping out any potential blocking threats and turning the game into a strict race (where merfolk should always win). Vapor Snag seems weak enough to cut, but I wouldn't put the full playset of new MoPT if it means cutting reejerey.

KobeBryan
07-11-2012, 04:56 PM
You can never cut reejerey. This guy alone wins games, well not alone. You need another merfolk.

But still. This guy is nuts to help secure the victory. You should see the people posting on Salvation. All of them are just taking out reejerey for the new LOA 2.0. I think they believe merfolk is a deck filled with beaters with no interaction.

Mr. Safety
07-11-2012, 09:41 PM
I am somewhat getting back into modern (at the request of a friend of mine.) I am tuining a merfolk deck and a Tooth and Nail/Tron deck.

My current list that I'm playtesting...doing REALLY nicely:

3x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Coralhelm Commander
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4x Aether Vial
4x Remand
4x Spreading Seas
2x Cryptic Command

3x Mutavault
18x Island


It's all aggro with 12 cantrip effects to feed you more fish. Remand is usually enough to stall long enough to beat face. It's an amazingly good aggro deck if you play it that way. Spreading Seas allows for some insane beats now that we have 8 islandwalk enabling lords.

Sideboard is still in progress, some mix of Hurkyl's Recall, Dismember, Echoing Truth, Trickbind, Sower of Temptation, and other typicaly hates.

Davran
07-12-2012, 08:53 AM
I am somewhat getting back into modern (at the request of a friend of mine.) I am tuining a merfolk deck and a Tooth and Nail/Tron deck.

My current list that I'm playtesting...doing REALLY nicely:

3x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Coralhelm Commander
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4x Aether Vial
4x Remand
4x Spreading Seas
2x Cryptic Command

3x Mutavault
18x Island


It's all aggro with 12 cantrip effects to feed you more fish. Remand is usually enough to stall long enough to beat face. It's an amazingly good aggro deck if you play it that way. Spreading Seas allows for some insane beats now that we have 8 islandwalk enabling lords.

Sideboard is still in progress, some mix of Hurkyl's Recall, Dismember, Echoing Truth, Trickbind, Sower of Temptation, and other typicaly hates.

I like the list - but I'm not sold on Cryptic Command. Seems like Mana Leak/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Dispell would be more useful in the earlier parts of the game.

Also, don't forget about Mindbreak Trap for the board. I'm guessing storm is going to run rampant until someone comes up with a decent control list...and you can always hard cast it to stop an Emrakul.

gkraigher
07-12-2012, 10:14 AM
This looks like a great modern decklist. Spreading Seas is TECH!

gkraigher
07-12-2012, 10:16 AM
I used to play this deck in legacy, and I never really liked aether vial. It got around counterspells in legacy, but that doesn't seem necessary in modern. Or the best route, as cavern of souls seems better.

I think aether vial might be clutter in your deck, and you could find something that is even more aggressive.

Davran
07-12-2012, 11:11 AM
I used to play this deck in legacy, and I never really liked aether vial. It got around counterspells in legacy, but that doesn't seem necessary in modern. Or the best route, as cavern of souls seems better.

I think aether vial might be clutter in your deck, and you could find something that is even more aggressive.

Vial isn't there to get around counters - that's just an additional benefit. Vial allows you to hold up mana for counters of your own while still developing your board, "cheat" on Silvergill Adept (you won't need to reveal/pay an extra 3), vial in Lords to pump your guys post blocks/attacks, protect your creatures from sorcery speed removal for a turn, activate mutavault and cast a creature, or simply just play more than one creature per turn.

Since merfolk is an aggro-tempo deck, we need to walk the line between aggressive and disruptive, and Aether Vial allows us to do that.

chags
07-14-2012, 08:57 AM
Vial is absolutely necessary for this deck to succeed. I like cryptic as a 2 of in fish, it is a very versatile end game card that has won me plenty of games. As far as cutting reejery for the new lord goes I am plenty aware of how good reejery triggers are but you also really need dismember or some sort of creature answer in your deck. Coralhelm can't be cut because he is your only "stand alone" fish, you can't cut adepts and cutting loa defeats the purpose, I wouldn't cut phantasmal as it is just way too versatile, and you can't cut your only 1 drop for another 2 drop. I talked to fish master extraordinaire Alex Bertoncini to see what he thought and reejery was his first cut as well, only testing will tell. Also in a meta full of RDW and the occasional twin deck I really prefer Spellskite to kira. Not only does it keep your vial at 2 and can be used to "counter" already casts spells but it also has a nice big butt for decks like jund and boros when you need a blocker. Spellskite has been testing marvelously for me over kira.

Mr. Safety
07-14-2012, 01:45 PM
Spellskite was outside my radar...thanks for that!

Someone suggested not playing Aether Vial...that's a resounding 'no' with about fifteen exclamation marks after it.

Why? At the very least it allows you to put down two merfolk a turn which helps you push tempo like nobody's business. In modern, counterspells cost mana...that means getting threats for free is even MORE important.

As far as Cryptic Command goes, I truly feel the need for a hard counter somewhere in the list. What other options are there? Negate? Spell Snare? Cancel? All worse than Cryptic. I don't want to mess around with setbacks on counters, I want something that will get the job done reliably when I need to (like when someone tries Damnation or Wrath of God on turn 5, or I could tap down the tokens from Splinter Twin and bounce the enchanted Pestermite/Exarch.) Cryptic feels like the best option. If someone suggested maindeck Dismember instead, I could be convinced to playtest it. Remand is the best at disrupting long enough to beat face. The deck is better as a straight aggro deck than aggro/control. Its the fast turn 4-5 clock made possible by 8 Island-walking lords and a disruptive cantrip (Spreading Seas.)

EDIT: Spreading Seas is boss for knocking someone off a color and hosing Tron as well...and fast enough so your fish can hit for 20 damage before opponent's can recover.

NidStyles
07-15-2012, 07:23 AM
That list needs some Shackles.

Mr. Safety
07-15-2012, 01:26 PM
Maindeck or sideboard? I've been using Sower of Temptation sideboard but maybe Shackles would be better.

NidStyles
07-15-2012, 09:24 PM
Maindeck or sideboard? I've been using Sower of Temptation sideboard but maybe Shackles would be better.

Probably in the SB, it's really only good against decks that actually use creatures. Why aren't you running Dispel? I read the reasoning behind running Remand to protect your dudes, but it seems that Dispel or Turn Aside would be cheaper and better in that role. Spreading Seas is a lot of disruption itself, considering that all of the combo decks rely on non-basics to begin with.

chags
07-16-2012, 10:15 AM
Spellskite was outside my radar...thanks for that!

Someone suggested not playing Aether Vial...that's a resounding 'no' with about fifteen exclamation marks after it.

Why? At the very least it allows you to put down two merfolk a turn which helps you push tempo like nobody's business. In modern, counterspells cost mana...that means getting threats for free is even MORE important.

As far as Cryptic Command goes, I truly feel the need for a hard counter somewhere in the list. What other options are there? Negate? Spell Snare? Cancel? All worse than Cryptic. I don't want to mess around with setbacks on counters, I want something that will get the job done reliably when I need to (like when someone tries Damnation or Wrath of God on turn 5, or I could tap down the tokens from Splinter Twin and bounce the enchanted Pestermite/Exarch.) Cryptic feels like the best option. If someone suggested maindeck Dismember instead, I could be convinced to playtest it. Remand is the best at disrupting long enough to beat face. The deck is better as a straight aggro deck than aggro/control. Its the fast turn 4-5 clock made possible by 8 Island-walking lords and a disruptive cantrip (Spreading Seas.)

EDIT: Spreading Seas is boss for knocking someone off a color and hosing Tron as well...and fast enough so your fish can hit for 20 damage before opponent's can recover.

I did suggest dismember, apparently no one clicked on my list from the 4-0 finish in a daily event. Take a look at it, it has been running very smoothly for me.

LeePerry
07-16-2012, 03:29 PM
This is my current Merfolk list for Modern, I'm doing fairly well with it in the local scene, but I haven't tried it out in any big tournament yet.

MD:
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Remand
3 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Cryptic Command
4 Cursecatcher
4 Coralhelm Commander
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Merrow Reejerey
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mutavault
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Plains
7 Island
2 Misty Rainforest


SB:
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
2 Disenchant
2 Spell Snare
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Echoing Truth
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spreading Seas

I've had Surgical Extraction for a while in the sideboard, but I swapped them for 2 Disenchant, and I'd love to make room for some targeted discard in the form of Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Duress, To have more one-drops and disruption that can affect the game before my beaters come online. I'm also considering swapping the Spell Snares in the board for Spell Pierce.

I'm not playing silvergill adept and I'm quite happy about it, Instead of using a beater that replaces itself, but is quite inefficient to pressurize my opponent when I have no lords, I opted for snapcaster mage, that can give me real card advantage with Path/Remand/Cryptic Command and a couple of Phantasmal Images that can act as snapcaster 3-4 or lord 15-16 or that can (sometimes at instant speed with Aether Vial) legend rule an opposing Melira, Kiki-Jiki, or other annoying Legends

What do you think about it?

LeePerry
07-16-2012, 03:47 PM
I did suggest dismember, apparently no one clicked on my list from the 4-0 finish in a daily event. Take a look at it, it has been running very smoothly for me.

I took a look at your decklist and I must say I like it a lot, but I'm very confused at the SB, I don't play modern that regulary, but I think it is just my local scene that is different.

How often is a resolved Hurkyll's Recall game against Affinity? I thought they could easily recast most of it in one or two turns, and I don't always have enough pressure to seal the deal by that time. (probably because I'm more heavy on the control element over the tempo-element).

I don't really like torpor orb, it's too much of a do-nothing, I understand why you want to have it in your sideboard, but do you really side it in that often?

Mr. Safety
07-16-2012, 05:30 PM
I would think Torpor Orb would be for the Melira-Pod and Spinter Twin matchups.

I have had Dismember in my sideboard since the start...Chags, are you suggesing it maindeck instead of Cryptic? If so, I'm game to try that out for sure. I also apologize for missing your post/list...I didn't go back very far when I jumped back into this thread and I don't check the dailies very often. Thanks for the note!

chags
07-16-2012, 11:24 PM
I took a look at your decklist and I must say I like it a lot, but I'm very confused at the SB, I don't play modern that regulary, but I think it is just my local scene that is different.

How often is a resolved Hurkyll's Recall game against Affinity? I thought they could easily recast most of it in one or two turns, and I don't always have enough pressure to seal the deal by that time. (probably because I'm more heavy on the control element over the tempo-element).

I don't really like torpor orb, it's too much of a do-nothing, I understand why you want to have it in your sideboard, but do you really side it in that often?

Hurkyl's certainly has times where it is not game against affinity, there just really isn't a better option. That being said recalling them EOT and making them discard to 7 is decent and there are also a lot of hands where you can recall then untap and win with a big alpha strike. I think this is a deck that needs to play a lot more heavily on the tempo side and not use too much of a control element.

Topor orb sucks and I hate that it takes up slots but Naya kiki jiki is a really tough deck to beat and against twin it is pretty necessary. Basically the pod/EBT trigger combo decks are very tough to beat and the combo of torpor orb and cage is the best way to combat them I've found thus far. I've considered cutting the orbs for pithing needles but I'm not sure it is any better.

@Mr.Safety Yes I do think the 2 dismember should be played over 2 cryptic md, it bonuses as freeing up some much needed SB slots.

chags
07-30-2012, 06:56 AM
Came in 4th (3-1) in a modo daily yesterday with fish without master (not legal yet). I beat Sam Black's zombies 2-1 round 1, UW Tron 2-0 round 2, Channelfireball nayapod 2-0 round 3, and lost 0-2 to affinity round four. Here is the list:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4128289

2 Cryptic command
3 spell pierce
2 spreading seas
2 vaporsnag
2 dismember
1 echoing truth
4 Aether Vial

4 cursecatcher
4 merrow reejery
4 lord of atlantis
4 silvergil adept
4 coralhelm commander
2 phantasmal image
2 spellskite

16 Island
4 Mutavault

Sideboard:
2 Spreading Seas
1 Spell pierce
1 sower of temptation
3 grafdigger's cage
1 echoing truth
2 threads of disloyalty
4 Hurkyl's recall
1 Kira, great glass-spinner

I really hate mana leak so I just decided to stop playing it. Unless you draw vial leak, remand, deprive, and delay just don't do enough. By the time you're ready to counter something you should already have cryptic mana up or just have them dead. Topdecked counters late game don't feel good and early game you're too busy jamming lords to leave up mana. The combination of spellskite and spell pierce do a great job of protecting my dudes, I'd rather race proactive cards then try to sit around countering them. Spreading seas tested very nice with only 4 islandwalk lords, I'm very excited about playing it (still 2 MB 2 SB) when the new lord is legal online.

chags
07-31-2012, 09:56 AM
So turns out I'm just an idiot and master has been legal on modo all week. After making a decent amount of changes I played in another daily this morning and finished 3-1 beating wur delver 2-0, affinity 2-0, and rug delver 2-0 while losing to UW delver 1-2. I got mana flooded game one and stuck on one mana game three against the UW deck. Overall I really like how my list is performing. I'll link the daily when they post it online but for now here is the list:

2 Cavern of souls
4 Mutavault
14 Island

4 Aether vial
3 Spell pierce
2 vapor snag
2 dismember
2 spreading seas

4 master of the pearl trident
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
3 merrow reejerey
4 silvergil adept
4 cursecatcher
2 spellskite
2 phantasmal image
1 sower of temptation

Sideboard:
2 Pithing needle
4 Hurkyl's Recall
1 sower of temptation
2 spreading seas
2 negate
1 kira, great glass spinner
3 grafdigger's cage

As I said this configuration has been working great for me. It is very counter light but I'm pretty happy with cutting the cryptic for a sower, cryptic was almost always used to tap down their team and spreading seas just does that job better. Cryptic just feels a bit too risky with only 20 lands, at least with the sower I can vial it in. The sower is great against so many bad match ups, I've been very pleased with it thus far.

Davran
07-31-2012, 11:07 AM
So turns out I'm just an idiot and master has been legal on modo all week. After making a decent amount of changes I played in another daily this morning and finished 3-1 beating wur delver 2-0, affinity 2-0, and rug delver 2-0 while losing to UW delver 1-2. I got mana flooded game one and stuck on one mana game three against the UW deck. Overall I really like how my list is performing. I'll link the daily when they post it online but for now here is the list:

2 Cavern of souls
4 Mutavault
14 Island

4 Aether vial
3 Spell pierce
2 vapor snag
2 dismember
2 spreading seas

4 master of the pearl trident
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
3 merrow reejerey
4 silvergil adept
4 cursecatcher
2 spellskite
2 phantasmal image
1 sower of temptation

Sideboard:
2 Pithing needle
4 Hurkyl's Recall
1 sower of temptation
2 spreading seas
2 negate
1 kira, great glass spinner
3 grafdigger's cage

As I said this configuration has been working great for me. It is very counter light but I'm pretty happy with cutting the cryptic for a sower, cryptic was almost always used to tap down their team and spreading seas just does that job better. Cryptic just feels a bit too risky with only 20 lands, at least with the sower I can vial it in. The sower is great against so many bad match ups, I've been very pleased with it thus far.

I'm liking the look of your list. I've had similar reservations about counterspells in this deck, but I've never had the will to cut them.

How are you finding Vapor Snag? It's been in and out of my test deck...I'm having a tough time evaluating it in the format.

Also, I see you're posting positive results against UWR Delver - do you attribute this to the Spellskites? I was testing Kira as an answer to UWR and Jund, but Spellskite might be all we need.

chags
07-31-2012, 02:19 PM
I'm liking the look of your list. I've had similar reservations about counterspells in this deck, but I've never had the will to cut them.

How are you finding Vapor Snag? It's been in and out of my test deck...I'm having a tough time evaluating it in the format.

Also, I see you're posting positive results against UWR Delver - do you attribute this to the Spellskites? I was testing Kira as an answer to UWR and Jund, but Spellskite might be all we need.

Vapor snag has been very good for me, without it I think you need to splash a second color for other removal. Spellskite is absolutely a large part of why I beat all the delver decks pretty regularly. Note that kira is still very good and I do run one in my sb but overall I think spellskite is better, I've been running two md for over a month now and can't see dropping them any time soon. UWR can be very difficult if they win the die roll and have a solid first turn play, if you win the die roll or they start with a serum visions turn 1 then you are usually in pretty good shape.

woremak
07-31-2012, 02:22 PM
This is a little late, but I played Merfolk at GP Columbus to a 5-0 start off of 0 byes (beating Reanimator, Naya Pod, Jund, G/R Tron and G/W Aggro) before losing to 2 pod decks and affinity to knock me out of contention for day 2. My sb was trash but here was my md:

15 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
3 Spreading Seas

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Merfolk Sovereign

I think the GQ's could probably be the last two Mutavaults. The only other really weird stuff is the Cavern, which is kind of Vial #5 and the lack of Coralhelm Commander because that card seemed terrible every time I drew it. I never missed it during the tournament although I definitely think one is better than 0.

Regardless, just some food for thought.

Davran
07-31-2012, 02:45 PM
Note that kira is still very good and I do run one in my sb but overall I think spellskite is better, I've been running two md for over a month now and can't see dropping them any time soon.

Do you think Kira is better than Sower in the main? What are you trying to grab with the Sower that somehow gets around islandwalk?


This is a little late, but I played Merfolk at GP Columbus to a 5-0 start off of 0 byes (beating Reanimator, Naya Pod, Jund, G/R Tron and G/W Aggro) before losing to 2 pod decks and affinity to knock me out of contention for day 2. My sb was trash but here was my md:

15 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
3 Spreading Seas

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Merfolk Sovereign

I think the GQ's could probably be the last two Mutavaults. The only other really weird stuff is the Cavern, which is kind of Vial #5 and the lack of Coralhelm Commander because that card seemed terrible every time I drew it. I never missed it during the tournament although I definitely think one is better than 0.

Regardless, just some food for thought.

I also agree that the Ghost Quarters can go. We have Spreading Seas to fill their role, which cantrips for us and disrupts tron much better than Ghost Quarter can.

chags
07-31-2012, 03:38 PM
Do you think Kira is better than Sower in the main? What are you trying to grab with the Sower that somehow gets around islandwalk?

Kira is good but spellskite is more versatile and I prefer it in the main, having both just seems redundant though. Sower is there for jund and RG tron, the decks where if you don't draw spreading seas you can be in trouble. It is also quite good against naya pod.

(nameless one)
11-21-2012, 12:41 PM
I think the deck is getting built for the wrong format. Merfolk was good in Legacy because it preyed in blue decks that Legacy is abundant of. It can run free Counterspells that can make the deck concentrate its resources in its threats and denial aspect (Wasteland - something that the format doesn't have).

I think Modern Merfolk should rely on card advantage in this format instead. Hell, even a green splash for Lead the Stampede in creature heavy builds.

Pltnmngl
12-14-2012, 10:48 AM
This is insane, but I have to ask this:

With how insanely popular Jund is, how much sense does 4 Sea's Claim and 4 Spreading Seas with a full set of each Islandwalking lord make? Is there too much blue in the format otherwise?

woremak
02-09-2013, 08:26 PM
Hey so no more bloodbraif elf! Now we can try to one for one Jund!
I don't think it's a huge advantage, but if blue decks rise in popularity than perhaps the fish deserve another chance. One thing is that cursecatcher seems fairly anemic in this format, I think going U/W and playing Sejiri Merfolk might be the call, as when you have a plains it's actually relevant w/out lords. I'm going to play this on monday at a local event I think, if anyone is interested developing the deck I will report on how it goes.

Phoenix Ignition
02-09-2013, 08:33 PM
I'm not sure white is necessary. taking a bunch of damage from our lands isn't great, and can often be the difference between a win and a loss since Merfolk want to kill turn 4-6. Here's my current list which is doing quite well. I agree on Cursecatcher, although 1 drops are nice, he just isn't worth it what with Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdicts.


4 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
2 Wake Thrasher

3 Spreading Seas
3 Cryptic Command
2 Dismember
4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus

4 Mutavault
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
15 Island

SB:
1 Spell Pierce
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Negate
1 Spreading Seas
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus


I've been winning with it on MTGO, but haven't had time for Dailys in a while.

Buckjunt
02-11-2013, 08:36 AM
This is my current build in light of the huge presence of r/w/u.

Artifacts: 4
4x Æther Vial

Creatures: 22
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
3x Merrow Reejerey
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Sejiri Merfolk
4x Silvergill Adept
2x Sygg, River Guide

Instants: 14
2x Dispel
4x Path to Exile
4x Remand
4x Vapor Snag

Lands: 20
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Mutavault
1x Plains
2x Scalding Tarn
4x Wanderwine Hub

Sideboard:
3x Disenchant
2x Dispel
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Negate
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Pithing Needle
2x Threads of Disloyalty

woremak
02-12-2013, 10:24 PM
So I played in the modern event, went 5-0 with U/W fish. The white splash felt very good for me, although I couldn't get my hands on Sejiri Merfolk in time (or Wanderwine Hub (protip never play Glacial Fortress)). I ended up replacing them Sejiri's with 2 snapcasters, a Wake Thrasher and another Vapor Snag. I think 2 Sejri are good moving forward, as I'd really like them in creature heavy matchups/burn matchups. Anyway, the deck seemed very good, probably going to keep jamming it for a while.

CaptainTwiddle
02-12-2013, 11:46 PM
I like the UW list quite a bit. I'm just wondering if the deck feels like it really wants another one drop in addition to Vial. I agree that Cursecatcher seems poorly positioned in the format at the moment, so I was wondering about Cosi's Trickster (deckbox.org/mtg/Cosi's Trickster). It seems like it might be a fairly reliable 2/2 for U that may make your opponent play their fetchlands more conservatively.

I'm also wondering if the lack of Spreading Seas (deckbox.org/mtg/Spreading Seas) was ever an issue?

Phoenix Ignition
02-13-2013, 03:51 AM
So I played in the modern event, went 5-0 with U/W fish. The white splash felt very good for me, although I couldn't get my hands on Sejiri Merfolk in time (or Wanderwine Hub (protip never play Glacial Fortress)). I ended up replacing them Sejiri's with 2 snapcasters, a Wake Thrasher and another Vapor Snag. I think 2 Sejri are good moving forward, as I'd really like them in creature heavy matchups/burn matchups. Anyway, the deck seemed very good, probably going to keep jamming it for a while.

Sejiri needs a plains to work, you only have 6 ways to get one. Isn't that far too few? Wanderwine Hub doesn't count for the lifelink.

woremak
02-13-2013, 10:27 AM
I like the UW list quite a bit. I'm just wondering if the deck feels like it really wants another one drop in addition to Vial. I agree that Cursecatcher seems poorly positioned in the format at the moment, so I was wondering about Cosi's Trickster (deckbox.org/mtg/Cosi's Trickster). It seems like it might be a fairly reliable 2/2 for U that may make your opponent play their fetchlands more conservatively.

I'm also wondering if the lack of Spreading Seas (deckbox.org/mtg/Spreading Seas) was ever an issue?

I tried out Cosi's Trickster earlier and was not a huge fan, but that might have changed. I'll certainly try it again. Not having seas wasn't a huge issue for me, between Reejerey triggers and having actual removal like path it's not too difficult to remove blockers. Also, people tended to underestimate how quickly I could put lords into play.

As for my list, Phoenix, I had 8 ways to get a plains which is, admittedly, a little short, but I've jammed enough games with the deck to come to a few conclusions:
1) If you play white, you should probably be playing Azorius Charm in some number. I had one and a Muddle the Mixture (which was actually awesome) which usually tutored for it.
2) I've never played a tournament match with Sejiri Merfolk, but in testing it was never essential to turn lifelink on. Obviously you're playing the card for that scenario but in this deck a 2/1 Merfolk is fine. I know this sounds ridiculous but the card is passable before it's turned on and obviously much better after. That said, having played without the Sejiris I'm less inclined to put in a full set and I'm not sure they're necessary. (I also think its likely that Azorius Charm > Sejiri Merfolk)
3) If you want one-drops besides Vial, play Spell Snare or Vapor Snag.

Phoenix Ignition
02-13-2013, 03:01 PM
What mode do you want on Azorius Charm? Flipping creatures is sometimes relevant, but in matchups like Tron I don't see any of the modes being worth it (yeah I guess you can cycle, but that's particularly bad in this matchup since you need to kill them fast). Do you ever use (and actually need to use) it for lifelink?

Sejiri seems fine, but I've absolutely fell in love with 4x Phantasmal Image. It takes out problem creatures like Geist, Olivia, and sometimes other random Legends, can be Silvergills 5-8 or just more Reejerey. I've actually never had one sitting in my hand where I didn't want it, although it definitely has died to some non-lethal targetted abilities before. If you have this with Vial you even get protection against all of the Kiki-Jiki shenanigans out there. Sometimes you get to turn him into a huntmaster or thragtusk. Against control decks I've turned him into Mutavault.

Anyway, as for the white splash in general, I'm not against it, but I just haven't seen enough advantage in playing that over mono blue, since there is a non-zero chance you draw multiple white cards and don't have any white mana. I even have troubles finding blue mana in mono-blue sometimes and all I play is 4 Mutavaults. Paths are decent, but a lot of the time losing 4 life is better than giving them the extra land drop, so Dismember is pretty awesome.


@Cosi's Trickster: I've considered using this before but am not a huge fan. I wish there were a decent 1-drop but I haven't found it necessary yet. Cosi just doesn't have the mid or late game ability to do anything at all.

woremak
02-14-2013, 01:22 AM
What mode do you want on Azorius Charm? Flipping creatures is sometimes relevant, but in matchups like Tron I don't see any of the modes being worth it (yeah I guess you can cycle, but that's particularly bad in this matchup since you need to kill them fast). Do you ever use (and actually need to use) it for lifelink?

Sejiri seems fine, but I've absolutely fell in love with 4x Phantasmal Image. It takes out problem creatures like Geist, Olivia, and sometimes other random Legends, can be Silvergills 5-8 or just more Reejerey. I've actually never had one sitting in my hand where I didn't want it, although it definitely has died to some non-lethal targetted abilities before. If you have this with Vial you even get protection against all of the Kiki-Jiki shenanigans out there. Sometimes you get to turn him into a huntmaster or thragtusk. Against control decks I've turned him into Mutavault.

Anyway, as for the white splash in general, I'm not against it, but I just haven't seen enough advantage in playing that over mono blue, since there is a non-zero chance you draw multiple white cards and don't have any white mana. I even have troubles finding blue mana in mono-blue sometimes and all I play is 4 Mutavaults. Paths are decent, but a lot of the time losing 4 life is better than giving them the extra land drop, so Dismember is pretty awesome.

I think Sejiri Merfolk is pretty bad after some more testing but the following things draw me to the white splash:
Sideboard cards, like Rest In Peace, Disenchant, Stony Silence
Better creature matchup cards, like path and azorius charm. The lifelink mode on charm is super relevant, not only against decks like burn but also against affinity or other decks where you generally try to race. Also the pseudo-submerge is great there too. Sygg, River Guide is a card that you haven't discussed, and personally I've also really liked that a lot. It's very good against decks that try to path+snapcaster you out of the game.
I didn't play mutavaults on monday, and in the tournament I didn't miss them. I played some games against U/W control and they would've been nice there, but having lands that don't cast any of the 2 CMC lords is a shaky proposition. I never had trouble with white mana exact a game where I mulled to five and kept a one-lander on the draw.

Anyway, I don't think mono-U is wrong, I just prefer path to dismember so I'm going to stick with the w splash for now.

Phoenix Ignition
02-14-2013, 01:26 AM
I didn't play mutavaults on monday, and in the tournament I didn't miss them. I played some games against U/W control and they would've been nice there, but having lands that don't cast any of the 2 CMC lords is a shaky proposition.

Okay... I don't know how to put it other than if you aren't playing Mutavaults, your Merfolk deck isn't good.

woremak
02-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Okay... I don't know how to put it other than if you aren't playing Mutavaults, your Merfolk deck isn't good.

Let me offer some alternatives for you, then:
If you don't play Mutavault, you are making your deck weaker against sorcery-speed removal and overloaded removal in general by increasing a) your reliance on Aether Vial to play have threats in play post-wrath that can attack and b) removing threats from your deck. Furthermore, your threats become less resilient against Abrupt Decay, a card that will kill every threat in the deck besides Mutavault. It's also an excellent draw late in the game where a land would otherwise be dead.
That said, hands with Mutavault, or any colorless land (but I think we can agree that the best colorless land for this deck is Mutavault by a considerable margin) and no Aether Vial make it more difficult to cast your spells that cost multiple colored mana (such as Lord of Atlantis or Sygg, River Guide in a U/W build) and make it more difficult to cast multiple spells in a turn (here I'm thinking about being able to cast Spell Snare and Vapor Snag, or two counterspells, etc.). Mutavault also makes countermagic more difficult to use because it essentially costs two mana a turn in order to attack.
I can understand your resistance to playing without Mutavault because it is an objectively good card and obviously carries a strong synergy with the decks primary plan (which is, as I understand, putting multiple threats in play to attack the opponent that grow based on tribal synergy) and I do not think they are a bad inclusion in this deck but I do not believe it is as black and white of an issue as you are portraying it to be.
I aggressively keep one land hands with Aether Vial with this deck as well as two landers without, and in most of these situations a hand with a Mutavault would essentially be a useless land. I have not tested your build as much as mine (and I really haven't put a lot of time into monocolored versions since before the printing of Abrupt Decay/Deathrite Shaman) but the card no longer feels strictly necessary to me and I'd rather be able to cast a lord on turn two than have another threat as of right now. I can imagine that my opinion might change, but for right now I am going to play without it in tournaments. People killed my vials a lot and I really like being able to cast spells, in short.

Phoenix Ignition
02-14-2013, 05:42 PM
Eloquently put, although it's good to remember that with 4 Phantasmal Images (probably in the Sejiri slot) make chaining draws off of Silvergills a lot easier to do, which means playing colorless lands isn't as big of a deal. I agree that sometimes not being able to cast a lord on turn 2 or later due to having the colorless lands isn't great, though I think the correct play in this deck is to run out your Silvergills as they get beefier faster than lords do.

I guess it would depend on what metagame you are expecting, but UW midrange playing Supreme Verdicts means that you're going to not only run more creatures into harms way (due to your lands not being able to attack), you'll also have to try to hold back more creatures in the event of a board wipe. At least with Mutavaults you get the bonus of a single lord in hand meaning 3-6 damage to them the turn after they verdict (and probably have no blockers as a result).

woremak
02-24-2013, 10:56 PM
So I played 2 Mutavault today and they were very good so, Phoenix Ignition, you were right and I should've been playing them all along. I went 4-0-1, beating Living End, G/B Rock, R/G Tron and BUG (basically Jund but with U over R). My deck felt very good, and the white splash stills feels excellent. Nothing much to report (besides being wrong about vault, which I was). One thing worth noting is that Sygg, River Guide has been over-performing, as has Rest in Peace out of the sideboard. I've also kept playing Wake Thrasher, although I could certainly be convinced to cut it. Against Tron I killed him from sixteen because of one. It's nice, in a deck known to need a critical mass of creatures, to be able to crush with a single one.

Phoenix Ignition
02-24-2013, 11:50 PM
I like Wakethrasher more than Coralhelm right now. There's enough removal in the format and this deck is so mana hungry that Coralhelm is more often a liability than anything else. I agree he feels a bit strange, but like you said, it's great to have a creature that can do stuff on his own.

woremak
03-09-2013, 01:26 AM
I plan on playing this deck in a ptq near Chicago next Saturday. I played in one in Lindenhurst, IL recently and went 2-0, 0-2. I beat B/R Through the Breach/Goryo's Vengeance and B/W tokens before losing to Grixis Delver (which seems like it should be favorable) and Zoo (which I'll get to in a minute). In general, I think my list was trying too hard to be cute with cards like Muddle the Mixture. Furthermore, I think playing like an aggressive deck is really where you want to be with this archetype right now. I've been testing 2 Dispel as the only md countermagic and it feels a lot smoother. I'm also playing 4 Vapor Snag, which has been great at saving my own guys as well as a normal tempo play. Furthermore, I realized I could just play Timely Reinforcements, which means that G2/3 against Zoo I can prolong the game to where I can assemble a critical mass of lords in play to win in combat. I don't know if my positive results with this new build are just due to a small sample size but it seems promising enough to keep trying it.

Medic
04-22-2013, 02:12 AM
I've spent the past two weeks playing variations of this list online, and plan to build it in paper to try at some local tournaments. In the 8 2-mans I've done, my record has been 5-3 with 2 losses to Burn and one to Loam/Seismic Assault. Two of my wins are against U/B control, something I had assumed was a fringe deck, as well as one win against UWR Helix/Bolt/Midrange? I'm not sure what to call it, but it played Curse of Bloodletting and took a game 2 off of me. My other two wins are from Urzatron, where Disrupting Shoal earned it's keep and I learned to love Riptide Pilferer. This is of course not including the 100-120 games I've played in the Tournament Practice room and 60-70 games testing with friends, mostly learning how the deck mulligans and how to sideboard in matchups.

Other then auto-losses to Loam-Assault, Goblins, having a very poor mirror match, and being too poor to afford Mutavaults+Kira, I've really been liking this list.

20 Lands
3x Faerie Conclave
17x Island

Mainboard
4x Aether Vial
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Disrupting Shoal
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Negate
3x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergill Adept
2x Sygg, River Cutthroat

Sideboard
4x Dispel
2x Relic of Progenitus
4x Riptide Pilferer
3x Spreading Seas
2x Turn to Mist

I feel like my Turn to Mists are really win-more, and my Negates are possibly just too mana intensive and end up being more 2cmc spells for Disrupting Shoal. I also find myself boarding out Coralhelm Commander in aggro match ups, which I'm not sure is correct. I'm pretty sure I just want to get my hands on some Kira, Great Glass Shapers and maybe put more relics in the board, but criticism and feedback is welcome; I've really been loving this list, and would like to know what everyone here thinks.

LeaPlath
04-23-2013, 04:00 AM
So, I've just finished Scapeshift and I'm looking for a new deck to build and I'm thinking Merfolk (I'm picking up vials anyway). I've also got stuff like Remand and Cryptic Command and Misties.

So, I'm looknig at Merfolk, as besides the mutavaults and aether vials it looks pretty cheap and I am hoping mutavaults get a reprint in Modern Masters.

Is there anything I can use in place of mutavault till I can get my hands on some?

EradiKate
04-23-2013, 01:54 PM
I'm an absolute moron and posted in the wrong forum. You may point and laugh now.

Medic
04-23-2013, 02:05 PM
Is there anything I can use in place of mutavault till I can get my hands on some?

I've had moderate success with 1 Island 3 Faerie Conclaves. Even though they don't get the bonus' from your lords, I find that having the manlands at all are important enough.

luckme10
05-22-2013, 01:14 AM
This really hasn't been brought up in awhile, but if overextending aggro seems to be the better game plan these days, in the white splash version, what about using mirror entity over coralhelm or wakethrasher? Isn't that just... game?

LeaPlath
05-22-2013, 03:33 PM
So, can I get some opinion on my merfolk list?


Creature (25)

2x Coralhelm Commander
4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergill Adept

Enchantment (3)

3x Spreading Seas

Instant (8)

2x Mana Leak
3x Spell Pierce
3x Vapor Snag

Land (20)

1x Cavern of Souls
15x Island
4x Mutavault

Artifact (4)

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard (15)

3x Dismember
2x Dispel
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Spellskite
1x Spreading Seas

art138
06-21-2013, 03:30 AM
I have had a lot of success with this list, which I have dubbed 'Spooky Fish' (Innistrad cards, get it?). But seriously, it's sick.

// Lands - 20
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Mutavault

// Creatures - 25
1 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Coralhelm Commander
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Phantasmal Image

// Everything else - 15
4 AEther Vial
2 Spreading Seas
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Boros CHarm
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard (Based on my meta)
SB: 3 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 2 Sudden Shock
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Spreading Seas
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Shadow of Doubt
SB: 2 Torpor Orb
SB: 1 Cursecatcher
SB: 1 Boros Charm

My biggest gripe with this deck in Modern has been its susceptibility to board wipes. Boros Charm helps alleviate that concern. Snapcaster + Bolt/Boros Charm gives the deck tremendous reach. And you haven't fully lived until you've activated vial on your U/W/r opponent's end step, putting in Geist of Saint Traft xD

JPoJohnson
07-11-2013, 03:54 PM
So, can I get some opinion on my merfolk list?


Creature (25)

2x Coralhelm Commander
4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergill Adept

Enchantment (3)

3x Spreading Seas

Instant (8)

2x Mana Leak
3x Spell Pierce
3x Vapor Snag

Land (20)

1x Cavern of Souls
15x Island
4x Mutavault

Artifact (4)

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard (15)

3x Dismember
2x Dispel
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Spellskite
1x Spreading Seas
Really not a fan of Coralhelm Commander in modern. He requires too much to invest to be worthwhile and is far too easily removed. If you want to run him, SB is where its at.

art138
07-12-2013, 03:01 AM
Really not a fan of Coralhelm Commander in modern. He requires too much to invest to be worthwhile and is far too easily removed. If you want to run him, SB is where its at.

I think it's fine as a one-of. Like Wake Thrasher, it's good on its own and demands an answer. I like it against UWr and Tron where you know they have Supreme Verdict and Oblivion Stone, respectively.

JPoJohnson
07-12-2013, 09:20 AM
I think it's fine as a one-of. Like Wake Thrasher, it's good on its own and demands an answer. I like it against UWr and Tron where you know they have Supreme Verdict and Oblivion Stone, respectively.

I could see Wake Thrasher before Coralhelm Commander. That investment is just too hefty and demanding for such little return.

art138
07-12-2013, 12:32 PM
I could see Wake Thrasher before Coralhelm Commander. That investment is just too hefty and demanding for such little return.

Yeah, I'm just saying it's not a bad thing to have after your opponent wraths the board.

woremak
08-09-2013, 01:36 PM
Hey, last Sunday I split the top 4 of a 1k with U/W fish. Here's my list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1148321

I beat UWR Geist, Mono U Tron, Burn and RUG Control (with Vedalken Shackles and Goyfs) and lost to U/R Delver/Faeries (although I talked with the guy after and he thinks it's a bad matchup for him so who knows) in the swiss, drawing round six and beating the same Tron opponent in top 8. Then on Monday I took the deck with some changes, MD -1 Vapor Snag -1 Hallowed Fountain +1 Cavern of Souls +1 Echoing Truth, SB -1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner +1 Echoing Truth to a local 4 round tournament and went 4-0, beating 2 Living End decks, G/R Tron and Burn. My list feels pretty good but here are some things I'm not sure about:

1) I don't know if two Cavern of Souls is right. Obviously it makes casting colored spells harder, but I'm comfortable with 4 colorless lands.
2) I wanted a maindeck way to interact with non-creature permanents which is why I added in Echoing Truth. I figured it had some marginal use against Wrath/Sweepers the same way that Vapor Snag does and might be good against Lingering Souls although it's pretty clunky at two mana.
3) I never really wanted the Vendilion Clique in my SB. I boarded it in against Tron and Living End and while it was fine against Tron it felt superfluous. Against LE, I think a counter would've been better. I think I'm going to sub it out for another counter spell, maybe just a negate.
4) The second Coralhelm Commander is there because I don't know what I'd play over it. I've tried a lot of other stuff (like Merfolk Sovereign, MD Tidebinder Mage, etc) and none are as good. I don't level CC a ton but this deck is kind of in the market for bears, so I'm interested in any suggestions you all might have there.

Anyway, thanks for any help!

cronos
08-27-2013, 03:39 PM
Hi,

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/thassamock.jpg

What do you think about including two copies of this non-merfolk creature? Regards.

YamiJoey
08-27-2013, 04:11 PM
Hi,

http://mythicspoiler.com/ths/cards/thassamock.jpg

What do you think about including two copies of this non-merfolk creature? Regards.

A 5/5 Indestructble on T3/4, with Scry 1, make itself and possibly something else unblockable?

Meh, maybe. I'd have to tear my own face off to make sure I still have all my senses to make sure this card isn't absolutely fucking bonkers, but yeah. Maybe.

[/Overreaction]

JPoJohnson
08-27-2013, 06:06 PM
I wouldn't include it.

1. It doesn't synergize with our creatures
2. It doesn't have evade
3. Path to Exile is an extremely popular form of removal
4. We have many ways of making our creatures unblockable.


It's winmore in a semi-hyper aggro deck. I think it distracts from the main plan.

Phoenix Ignition
08-27-2013, 08:40 PM
I agree with JPoJohnson, but also keep in mind, even against red decks they can easily just bolt one of your dudes to turn the 5/5 indestructible into a dumb-looking tapped enchantment.

While this deck is the best equipped to "activate" her, I just don't see why it would be worth playing. If you want evade, just play a Spreading Seas (who's card draw is most likely going to be better than a Scry per turn), and if you want to help your other creatures out more, play more merfolks.

Kayradis
08-29-2013, 10:45 AM
Aquitect's Will > Spreading Seas

1. More synergy (Can be revealed to Silvergill Adept, Trigger Merrow Rejerey tap/untap ability)
2. CMC 1 instead of 2
3. Still draws you a card

JPoJohnson
08-29-2013, 02:18 PM
Aquitect's Will > Spreading Seas

1. More synergy (Can be revealed to Silvergill Adept, Trigger Merrow Rejerey tap/untap ability)
2. CMC 1 instead of 2
3. Still draws you a card

There is no strictly better when comparing these two cards. If you're in a greedy mana-base meta, then Spreading Seas to deny a color is fantastic. If you're not, then you can decide to change to a different option at that point. Also, it's not promised that you're going to draw a card with Aquitect's Will whereas you always will with Spreading Seas.

cronos
08-29-2013, 03:31 PM
Against Eldrazi Green/UW Tron/MonoU Tron is much better Spreading Seas. Also against Jund, 5cc Zoo, etc.

JPoJohnson
08-30-2013, 11:15 AM
Against Eldrazi Green/UW Tron/MonoU Tron is much better Spreading Seas. Also against Jund, 5cc Zoo, etc.

Yes, you did indeed list decks with greedy mana bases which would allow that card to fit into the criteria that I listed.

Like I said, it depends on your meta. Spreading Seas is worse than Aquitect's Will against Soul Sisters, RDW, Faeries, UR Storm, Twin Exarch, weak against certain affinity types, and many other decks.


When making the decision, figure out your meta and choose accordingly.

Phoenix Ignition
08-30-2013, 10:11 PM
Yes, you did indeed list decks with greedy mana bases which would allow that card to fit into the criteria that I listed.

Like I said, it depends on your meta. Spreading Seas is worse than Aquitect's Will against Soul Sisters, RDW, Faeries, UR Storm, Twin Exarch, weak against certain affinity types, and many other decks.


When making the decision, figure out your meta and choose accordingly.

I don't even agree with this. Spreading Seas is better against any deck running multiple colors, and can even be better against mono-color decks. The chance of blowing someone out by turning their only X color into blue largely justifies the extra mana (and really, one of the better parts as well is that SS guarantees a card draw whereas AW doesn't (that aspect of it can even be shut off in response to you playing it)). Even against mono-colored decks you can shut off something like Tec Edge from taking out your Mutavault, or slow down their ability to get enough colored mana to play something (slow Spectral Procession down). Since you're playing a deck that wants to win in the mid game, any slowing down you can do will help you out.

And then there are the decks that SS just completely blows out, like Tron.

JPoJohnson
08-31-2013, 02:11 AM
I don't even agree with this. Spreading Seas is better against any deck running multiple colors, and can even be better against mono-color decks. The chance of blowing someone out by turning their only X color into blue largely justifies the extra mana (and really, one of the better parts as well is that SS guarantees a card draw whereas AW doesn't (that aspect of it can even be shut off in response to you playing it)). Even against mono-colored decks you can shut off something like Tec Edge from taking out your Mutavault, or slow down their ability to get enough colored mana to play something (slow Spectral Procession down). Since you're playing a deck that wants to win in the mid game, any slowing down you can do will help you out.

And then there are the decks that SS just completely blows out, like Tron.

Sure, there are very specific scenarios that you could find yourself in where you would wish that you had SS instead of AW. That can be said for any card, however.

Personally, I just run SS and don't give a damn about AW. I find that required Merfolk in play clause is obnoxious with so much spot removal and several control decks running board wipes. I find the lack of mana denial frustrating. I don't think it's strictly better, but I do enjoy the interaction it has enough to run it over AW no matter what. Other people want to run AW and that's fine. I'm willing to look at the potential pros of the card without simply dismissing it entirely just for the sake of the thread and discussion.

mschu99
09-06-2013, 12:54 PM
Hey thanks everyone for your posts. Lots of good information.

I have been messing around with vial decks for a bit (mainly death and taxes and merfolk). It feels like Merfolk just has more raw power then almost any other decks, and there aren't any really bad matchups because of the counter/tempo strategy and the raw power of the lords. I feel like this deck is almost never out of any game.

I personally prefer the more tempoish strategy with Remand/Vapour Snag stuff instead of Cryptic Command more controlling strategy. I wanted to see how people feel about Spellstutter Sprite (tool that the delver/UR Faeries decks have been using). It doesn't combo witht he lords, but can consistantly counter cmc 1 mana spells (most removal). Not sure, it's probably bad, and just better to go with Spellskite to blank removal. But it could also work well with Mutavault.

I like the Corsi's Trickster over Cursecatcher just because Corsi gets big and get's them dead, and Cursecatcher doesn't seem as good. I think the best thing about this deck is playing cards that replace themselves (13 in my main deck). I feel like that get's to more lords and answers to beat up on opponents.

Here is my list:
CREATURES (23)
4x--Corsi's Trickster
4x--Lord of Atlantis
4x--Master of Pearl Trident
4x--Merrow Reejery
3x--Phantasmal Image
4x--Silvergill Adept

SPELLS (17):
4x--Aether Vial
4x--Spreading Seas
3x--Remand
4x--Vapor Snag
2x--Repeal (*Deals with troublesome enchantments/creatures and replaces itself)

LANDS:
16x--Islands
4x--Mutavault (**Right now 3x Faerie Conclave, 1x--Mishra's Factory because I sold mine off, but looking to reacquire)

SIDEBOARD:
2x--Tidebinder Mage
1x--Mana Leak (basically a hard counter for most decks)
1x--Spell Pierce
2x--Spell Sanre
1x--Negate
2x--Dismember
2x--Hurkyl's Recall
3x--Relic of Progenitus

mschu99
09-12-2013, 02:16 PM
Hey thanks everyone for your posts. Lots of good information.

I have been messing around with vial decks for a bit (mainly death and taxes and merfolk). It feels like Merfolk just has more raw power then almost any other decks, and there aren't any really bad matchups because of the counter/tempo strategy and the raw power of the lords. I feel like this deck is almost never out of any game.

I personally prefer the more tempoish strategy with Remand/Vapour Snag stuff instead of Cryptic Command more controlling strategy. I wanted to see how people feel about Spellstutter Sprite (tool that the delver/UR Faeries decks have been using). It doesn't combo witht he lords, but can consistantly counter cmc 1 mana spells (most removal). Not sure, it's probably bad, and just better to go with Spellskite to blank removal. But it could also work well with Mutavault.

I like the Corsi's Trickster over Cursecatcher just because Corsi gets big and get's them dead, and Cursecatcher doesn't seem as good. I think the best thing about this deck is playing cards that replace themselves (13 in my main deck). I feel like that get's to more lords and answers to beat up on opponents.

Here is my list:
CREATURES (23)
4x--Corsi's Trickster
4x--Lord of Atlantis
4x--Master of Pearl Trident
4x--Merrow Reejery
3x--Phantasmal Image
4x--Silvergill Adept

SPELLS (17):
4x--Aether Vial
4x--Spreading Seas
3x--Remand
4x--Vapor Snag
2x--Repeal (*Deals with troublesome enchantments/creatures and replaces itself)

LANDS:
16x--Islands
4x--Mutavault (**Right now 3x Faerie Conclave, 1x--Mishra's Factory because I sold mine off, but looking to reacquire)

SIDEBOARD:
2x--Tidebinder Mage
1x--Mana Leak (basically a hard counter for most decks)
1x--Spell Pierce
2x--Spell Sanre
1x--Negate
2x--Dismember
2x--Hurkyl's Recall
3x--Relic of Progenitus

Here is an updated list. I saw someone running less lands and 4 Gitaxion Probes and wanted to give it a whirl.

CREATURES:
4x--Corsi's Trickster
4x--Lord of Atlantis
4x--Master of Pearl Trident
3x--Merrow Reejery
3x--Phantasmal Image
4x--Silvergill Adept

SPELLS
4x--Aether Vial
3x--Spreading Seas
3x--Remand
4x--Vapor Snag
2x--Mana Leak
4x--Gitaxian Probe

LANDS
16x--Islands
2x--Mutavault

SIDEBOARD:
2x--Tidebinder Mage
1x--Graffdigger's Cage
1x--Spell Pierce
2x--Spell Snare
1x--Negate
1x--Mana Leak
2x--Dismember
2x--Hurkyl's Recall
3x--Relic of Progenitus

Trimmed the number of Reejery's to lower the curve, added in two mana leaks in order to have pseudo-hardcounters and diversify the coutner spells. Probe's replace themselves and give you free info (helps to hit land drops). I went down to 3 Spreading Seas, but I do like having 4 except against aggressive matchups. Negate v. Spell Pierce is something I have been debating, but I like negate against control and combo.

I feel like this deck gives you more opportunities to see a lot of cards in the deck with 14 cards that replace themselves.

Windmill
11-28-2013, 08:13 PM
Any updates to this? I'm looking to play Merfolk in modern so I can bring my legacy deck over. Doesn't need to be the best but being able to do respectable would be nice :) I think Coral Trickster is the way to go, I like having a 1-drop outside of Aether Vial.

One thing Reejery does is help make Trickster less of a groan when you top-deck him later on.

YamiJoey
11-29-2013, 03:02 AM
Cosi's Trickster, and your other 1-drop is Cursecatcher.

The main update for me is Master of Waves, and possibly Thassa. MoW is incredibly powerful, Thassa is also very good, but not quite 'make 6-guys totalling 14 power' good.

Mr. Safety
11-29-2013, 08:40 PM
I would only play Cosi's Trickster if you're splashing white for Path. Yes you can get incidental shuffle effects and get a 3/3 or better but you can also run into RDW and have a 1/1 dork that you'd rather be a Vapor Snag.

Anarky87
12-08-2013, 12:39 AM
I recently traded my Soul Sisters for Merfolk, so I'm looking forward to trying it out. The list I saw that I'm gonna try out:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
3 Master of Waves
2 Coralhelm Commander
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Kira, Great-Glass Spinner

4 Spell Pierce
4 Spreading Seas
4 Aether Vial
3 Vapor Snag

17 Island
4 Mutavault

Maybe throw in a couple Tec Edges.

Windmill
12-18-2013, 04:09 AM
I recently traded my Soul Sisters for Merfolk, so I'm looking forward to trying it out. The list I saw that I'm gonna try out:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
3 Master of Waves
2 Coralhelm Commander
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Kira, Great-Glass Spinner

4 Spell Pierce
4 Spreading Seas
4 Aether Vial
3 Vapor Snag

17 Island
4 Mutavault

Maybe throw in a couple Tec Edges.
Awesome, please let me know how it goes!

dinosaurus
03-18-2014, 10:32 AM
Hi everyone,
I'm thinking to try a white splash (mainly to improve the sideboard), has anyone tried that yet?
Thank you!

JPoJohnson
03-18-2014, 12:08 PM
Hi everyone,
I'm thinking to try a white splash (mainly to improve the sideboard), has anyone tried that yet?
Thank you!

It's been done quite a bit due to the fact that it can get some great power from Path to Exile and a much stronger sideboard, however the UW Merfolk deck hasn't seen success in any event of note that I've been able to track since July of 2013. The mono blue just has so much speed, power, and a great mana base. There are still people that run it though. I know one guy that missed D2 of the recent GP Richmond by 1 game going 6-3 losing his win and in with UW Merfolk.

dinosaurus
03-19-2014, 08:16 AM
It's been done quite a bit due to the fact that it can get some great power from Path to Exile and a much stronger sideboard, however the UW Merfolk deck hasn't seen success in any event of note that I've been able to track since July of 2013. The mono blue just has so much speed, power, and a great mana base. There are still people that run it though. I know one guy that missed D2 of the recent GP Richmond by 1 game going 6-3 losing his win and in with UW Merfolk.

Thank you! Just out of curiosity, do you know what his sideboard was?

JPoJohnson
03-19-2014, 09:51 AM
Thank you! Just out of curiosity, do you know what his sideboard was?

CREATURES (26):
3 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 master of the pearl trident
4 lord of atlantis
2 phantasmal image
3 merrow reejerey
3 master of waves
2 kira, great glass-spinner
1 thassa, god of the sea

SPELLS (13)
4 aether vial
4 path to exile
4 spreading seas
1 spell pierce

LANDS (21):
4 seachrome coast
4 wanderwine hub
2 hallowed fountain
5 island
2 cavern of souls
4 mutavault

SIDEBOARD (15):
1 thassa, god of the sea
2 unified will
3 stony silence
2 spell snare
2 tidebinder mage
3 rest in peace
2 rule of law



When I ran my merfolk as UW (I switched over to Mono-U and love it a lot more), I only did 8 White sources as you'll only ever need one, so I don't think the 2 Hallowed Fountains are necessary, just the 8 sources. I rarely had an issue of having a Path to Exile in hand and not have a white source on the field already.

dinosaurus
03-19-2014, 04:48 PM
CREATURES (26):
3 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 master of the pearl trident
4 lord of atlantis
....


thank you!

CaptainTwiddle
03-22-2014, 03:51 PM
Aquitect's Will > Spreading Seas

1. More synergy (Can be revealed to Silvergill Adept, Trigger Merrow Rejerey tap/untap ability)
2. CMC 1 instead of 2
3. Still draws you a card

In addition to the other reasons listed in previous posts, Spreading Seas provides an additional source of devotion if you're running Thassa, God of the Sea. If you're not running Thassa, then it's a moot point, but it's something to consider. Ultimately though, the ability to potentially color screw an opponent is what makes SS generically superior, IMO. Especially over the course of a long tournament, you want to maximize your number of free wins.

GoboLord
04-23-2014, 05:35 PM
Ultimately though, the ability to potentially color screw an opponent is what makes SS generically superior, IMO. Especially over the course of a long tournament, you want to maximize your number of free wins.

Agreed. I played a list with each 4 SPreading Seas and 4 Sea's Claim on the last two tournaments. Just as anecdotal evidence for the hypothesis "color screw = free wins":

* GW Aura's cant do much when you manage to leave them with only 0 to 1 G/W manasources
* color screw can tame Lions, Cats and Apes
* I played against 3 Twin decks in 10 rounds, my opponents resolved a total of 0 Splinter Twin and 0 Kiki-Jiki in those matches (guesss who won)
* I color screwed a fucking Mono B deck.

This strategy doesn't work well against Pod decks (surprise) and, oddly enough, UWR midrange.

Play Sea's Claim and feel the power of the 8 Seas.


...Oh and impossible-to-remove devotion is good for Master of Waves. Have you ever resolved him on an supposedly "empty" board and put 5 token into play?

Windmill
06-26-2014, 06:39 AM
Just a small little bump to the thread. I've been doing really well with my Merfolk deck locally, mono-blue. I've beaten all sorts of decks, including robots. It is rough for sure, but enough disruption and you can do it.

My sideboard definitely needs help. At least locally, I feel that threads of disloyalty would be a good sideboard card.

Phoenix Ignition
06-26-2014, 02:09 PM
My sideboard definitely needs help. At least locally, I feel that threads of disloyalty would be a good sideboard card.

Post your list and maybe we can help.