[Deck] Pyromancer Ascension

[PunkRocker1134]

Time for another potential combo player in the meta, which can be constructed in a more budget friendly way. Further, it is fairly fast, and can be pretty resilient. Capable of turn two kills, its more of a 4 or so deck. More on that later. Its main issue comes in finding/sticking a Pyromancer's Ascension in a reasonable time period, and general play difficulty with all the decisions one has to make.

First, a list:
1 Banefire
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Punishing Fire
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Remand
4 Rite of Flame
Spells [42]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 blood crypt
1 watery grave
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents

SIDEBOARD
4 Dark Confidant
4 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vendilion Clique

The deck is almost entirely draw, mana production and combo pieces.

Draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

This is your basic draw package. Probe provides information, is often free, while ponder and preordain are one mana draw spells which help find the ascension, and really help the deck storm off when it is active.

Mana accel/ filtering:
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose

These are the cards which give the deck is ability to be very fast. Rite of flame allows for a turn 1 ascension. Manamorphose is okay precomboing off, but is the stone cold nuts when comboing off. Its mana acceleration and card advantage.

The combo itself:
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Pyromancer Ascension
1 Grapeshot
1 Banefire

Clearly, the Ascension is the centerpiece of the deck. It makes every spell amazing, when active. It facilitates huge spell chains and mana production, which in turn allows for the Grapeshot and/or Banefire kill. Muddle the mixture functions as both protection and ascension 5-8.

The Other stuff:
4 Remand
4 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Remand is pretty standard protection. Its great for this deck for three reasons:
1) We only need to stall
2) The card parity it provides is much needed
3) Grapeshot tricks (remanding grapeshot but leaving the storm copies on the stack)

The punishing fire/ Grove combo is a back up plan basically, and is used to either stall aggro decks or grind out the game against control decks.

The Board:
4 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vendilion Clique

The creatures allow us to side into another plan, basically grinding an opponent out with Dark Confidant and Clique, while bolt is used to stall aggro decks. Echoing Truth is good against hate cards.


A more Budget friendly list:
1 Banefire
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
4 Muddle the mixture
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Punishing Fire
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Remand
4 Rite of Flame
Spells [42]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
5 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn


SIDEBOARD
3 Spell pierce
4 Echoing Truth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Little Jace

Basically we trim the RAV duals, which means we lose Confidant from the board. Also we take out Clique since it is fairly expensive now. Replacing them we have Spell pierce and little Jace. Jace replaces Bob as a source grinding out a control opponent while Pierce allows us to fight through countermagic.

**Space saved for Goldfishing a few hands**

edit:

While this is an overextended report, it seems relevant here. The list is exactly the same, with a small landbase change.

http://mtgoverextended.com/of-pyromancers-and-godslayers-ascending-in-north-carolina/

[GGoober]

I am digging Ascension. Any chance for Life from the Loam/Academy Ruins/EE/Gifts Ungiven to be squeezed in this list? Seems amazingly brutal. I think this is the archetype that appeals to me the most in Modern.

I'm thinking of a more controllish approach than a combo approach. I'll get down to testing a list.

[Aggro_zombies]

4 Ponder, 4 Preordain are the heavy lifters you have in terms of finding Ascension. I'm not really counting Manamorphose or Gitaxian Probe here because they're not very good at actively looking for an Ascension, and Peer through Depths only finds instants and sorceries. So I guess my question is: why is Ascension better than Pyromancer's Swath? The latter makes Grapeshot a legitimate kill and allows you to go with more of a Dragonstorm shell, while the former seems like a bad card in a format full of answers to it since it (a) doesn't win on the spot when active, (b) gets significantly worse the longer you wait to cast it, and (c) is not significantly better in multiples.

I've watched Ascension players in Standard lose to Vampires and RDW because they couldn't find Ascensions until turn three and then had to wait another turn or two to get them active, at which point they were just way too far behind. In format like Modern, which is undoubtedly much faster, how are you beating a deck like Zoo with maindeck Pridemages and sideboard Grips/Nature's Claims?

In short, why Ascension over storm?

[PunkRocker1134]

I've made a change to the opening post list (which will be updated as well). I'm exchanging peer through depths for muddle the mixture. The former is pretty much only good midcombo, while the latter is ascension 5-8 and more protection. Postboard it also can find Bob and Echoing Truth.


So I guess my question is: why is Ascension better than Pyromancer's Swath? The latter makes Grapeshot a legitimate kill and allows you to go with more of a Dragonstorm shell, while the former seems like a bad card in a format full of answers to it since it (a) doesn't win on the spot when active, (b) gets significantly worse the longer you wait to cast it, and (c) is not significantly better in multiples.

I've watched Ascension players in Standard lose to Vampires and RDW because they couldn't find Ascensions until turn three and then had to wait another turn or two to get them active, at which point they were just way too far behind. In format like Modern, which is undoubtedly much faster, how are you beating a deck like Zoo with maindeck Pridemages and sideboard Grips/Nature's Claims?

In short, why Ascension over storm?

Ascension is a form of storm in all honesty, or at least it plays a lot like it.

I'm going to write out my argument for Ascension over storm in list form for the ease of both reading a writing.

1) The Fires/Grove combo easily fits in this shell and gives us the ability to combat zoo and other aggro decks in the early game. This gives us more time to set up our combo. Also two Punishing Fires activates an ascension itself by recuring both and playing them again.

2) I disagree with the three earlier points you made in all honesty.
a) you should be winning the game no latter then the turn after Ascension gets active. Once all your spells are getting doubled, you've basically won. Fizzling with an active Ascension, going off no later than the turn after it became active, has seemed rare in my intential testing.
b) The longer the game goes, the more gas and set up time you've had. The deck does have zero card advantage minus the grove/fires combo, however, once ascension is active this doesn't matter that much at all. One or two draw spells with an active ascension should cascade into a win. This is why I would argue it only gets slightly worse as the game goes on.
c) In multples, Ascension is fantastic when active. Two ascensions should easily be game. Its the same feeling I've gotten in standard when playing Ascension (although they are two completely different decks).

3) Ascension can play a more controlling game much easier. Which makes grinding out games against control a real possibility. Also, this allows us to slow Zoo and other aggro decks down. This makes comboing off easier.

It should be noted I have not even goldfished Modern Storm.

Muddle the mixture is another way to find Ascensions, and should help mitigate the finding and activating Ascension consistently and early enough problem. Testing will tell me either way. Serum Visions is another option as a cantrip.

Against Zoo, you try to kill pridemages, and hope they pack Nature's Claim instead of grip. Mental Misstep should probably find space in the board for that reason. Pending the form of Zoo you're playing, establishing Fires/Grove can almost seal the game itself, giving you plenty of time to combo off with Ascension.

Thats all for now, but if you disagree with any of these points I'd love to discuss them and hopefully improve the deck because of it.

[Amez]

Like this idea of this deck, i will defiantly be testing it,
although i can see your points for Muddle in the Mixture, that card seems kinda slow// clunky, personally id like another card to buy time against the more aggressive decks, maybe trying Repeal over Muddle in the main,
on a slight side note, i believe mental misstep is banned.

[GGoober]

I think Ascension should not be played as a combo deck in Modern. This is of course my opinion. Ascension in a control-combo shell using basically Punishing Fires as its win condition would be how I would approach the deck. As aggro-zombies pointed out, taking the combo approach of PA is less consistent and more prone to hate than storm combo.

Gifts/Loam/EE/Ruins all seem incredibly powerful in this deck taking the control approach (primarily considering the Zoo/junk/Bant matchups where EE recursion is almost unstoppable outside of Pithing Needles). In addition, the deck can also pack 1-2 Tec edges against the 12post/Valakut matchup.

I'm working on a list but I'll keep you guys updated. If you feel control Ascension does not belong to this thread, I'll be wililng to start another one.

[Maveric78f]

I think it's a really good deck for game 1, but that is too easy to hate in games 2/3. It's very hard to play around extirpate/surgical, chalice, anti-enchantments, ...

My solution to this is to have a transformationnal SB into Hive Mind. Hive Mind is not affected by all this hate and remains in the same colours. Here is my actual list, not tested enough for the moment:

The basis:
4 Pyromancer Ascension
2 Muddle the Mixture

The cantrips:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Manamorphose
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions

The tools:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Noxious Revival
4 Rite of Flame

Lands
4 Steam Vents
6 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 4 Hive Mind
SB: 4 Pact of Negation
SB: 4 Pact of the Titan
SB: 3 Seething Song

For the moment, I'm not a fan of Remand which is too much mana requiring, I'd prefer to play Pact of Negation MD actually. Also, I feel that Muddle the Mixture is less required thatn additionnal lands.

[PunkRocker1134]

Premptive apology for the quick, and shorter post. I saw an interesting list on the Dailys the other day combining Ascension with Swathstorm. For reference, heres the list:

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Pyromancer Ascension
3 Pyromancer's Swath
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Serum Visions
Spells [42]
7 Island
3 Mountain
4 Steam Vent
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Repeal
3 Spell Pierce
4 Splinter Twin

Something like this might be the best direction to take combo oriented Ascension

[yutang]

What do you think about the ideas expressed in this article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/modern/22668_Your_Pyromancer_and_You_A_HowTo_Guide_on_the_Best_Combo_Deck_In_Modern.html

I'm not too sold on the Muddle the Mixture too - it seems a tad clunky as a tutor but at the same time, there aren't many tutoring effects left in Modern

[Maveric78f]

Yutyang: He does not play noxious revival, which is very strange to me. The SB strategy is not impressive neither.

[Hopo]

The article's list has the ability to go infinite, which is nice. Seems solid but needs testing. Has someone tried or even played in a tournament the Larry Swasey's list or similar?

[Maveric78f]

All builds have the ability to go infinite with enough activated pyromancers in play (either remand or revival).

[NyxathidHorror]

What do you guys think of tezzeret's gambit?

I've been testing 2, and it's proved quite effective at getting ascension running. I have yet to pay more than :3:, which is rather easy to accumulate with the accel package the deck has, and you almost always win after it resolves.

My main build is considerably different than any other posted here; my list looks a lot like TES, in the sense that I'm running rainbow lands along with silence/orim's chant and duress. I've had the best luck with running this deck in a combo/control shell, and I suggest you guys give it a shot to. This is an incredibly fun deck to play, but a lot of lists I've seen make it more of a glass cannon, rather than the brutal killing machine it's meant to be.

Something else I find interesting about this deck is the win conditions. Grapeshot, empty the warrens (not instantly), and ignite memories all win you the game after you combo out. All seem rather legitimate as a win, and come down to personal preference, which makes this deck that much more interesting to play.

[PunkRocker1134]

Would you mind posting your list for discussion sake NyxathidHorror. It seems really interesting, although Chant isn't legal.

[Gocho]

Would you mind posting your list for discussion sake NyxathidHorror. It seems really interesting, although Chant isn't legal.

This.
But with Blood Moon being played everywhere to beat 12-post, I don't know if Rainbow lands are the way to go.

Anyway, I think that Tezzeret's Gambit and Ideas Unbound must be tested.

[NyxathidHorror]

Would you mind posting your list for discussion sake NyxathidHorror. It seems really interesting, although Chant isn't legal.

I'll post my list as soon as I get back on my own computer. If I can put it together off the top of my head, then I'll post it in a few minutes. I don't know why I mentioned chant; I guess mentioning TES made me think of it...lol


This.
But with Blood Moon being played everywhere to beat 12-post, I don't know if Rainbow lands are the way to go.

Anyway, I think that Tezzeret's Gambit and Ideas Unbound must be tested.

I haven't had any problems with blood moon yet; If they get the chance to play it, then I just continue to combo out the next turn with manamorphose. I think my main disruption package right now is as follows:

4 Remand
4 Silence
4 Duress
3 Muddle the Mixture

I might be a little off though. I'll get my definite list up soon for you guys. I've had a TON of fun playing this deck, and I'm seriously considering building it, so I'll have something to play in modern...lol

[Gocho]

I bought the Ascension yesterday, and all the other cards are cheap or playable in other decks.
So, yes build it. It's fun :)

[Maveric78f]

Tezzeret gambit is a great SB card against chalice / engineered explosives. But the weaknzss of the deck remains Extirpate

[mojoiskewl]

I've created a small program to count cards for analysis, here is what the data coughed up from 18pts or better lists from PT philly.

Aggregate Count
Out of 7 decks
Key: Cascade Bluffs, Value: 1
Key: Watery Grave, Value: 3
Key: Noxious Revival, Value: 14
Key: Pyromancer Ascension, Value: 27
Key: Seething Song, Value: 4
Key: Remand, Value: 16
Key: Island, Value: 32
Key: Grapeshot, Value: 7
Key: Lightning Bolt, Value: 24
Key: Misty Rainforest, Value: 23
Key: Simian Spirit Guide, Value: 6
Key: Gitaxian Probe, Value: 28
Key: Rite of Flame, Value: 24
Key: Pyretic Ritual, Value: 1
Key: Scalding Tarn, Value: 28
Key: Empty the Warrens, Value: 2
Key: Preordain, Value: 28
Key: Breeding Pool, Value: 2
Key: Peer Through Depths, Value: 8
Key: Ideas Unbound, Value: 2
Key: Grove of the Burnwillows, Value: 8
Key: Manamorphose, Value: 28
Key: Steam Vents, Value: 18
Key: Muddle the Mixture, Value: 2
Key: Shivan Reef, Value: 4
Key: Punishing Fire, Value: 1
Key: Sleight of Hand, Value: 16
Key: Pyromancer's Swath, Value: 4
Key: Desperate Ritual, Value: 4
Key: Snow-Covered Island, Value: 2
Key: Serum Visions, Value: 12
Key: Ponder, Value: 28
Key: Mana Leak, Value: 3
Key: Gifts Ungiven, Value: 2
Key: Banefire, Value: 2
Key: Mountain, Value: 6
Sideboard
Key: Pact of Negation, Value: 2
Key: Vendilion Clique, Value: 5
Key: Slagstorm, Value: 1
Key: Splinter Twin, Value: 7
Key: Flame Slash, Value: 4
Key: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Value: 2
Key: Spell Pierce, Value: 4
Key: Lightning Bolt, Value: 3
Key: Duress, Value: 8
Key: Repeal, Value: 1
Key: Shattering Spree, Value: 3
Key: Dispel, Value: 1
Key: Empty the Warrens, Value: 1
Key: Wipe Away, Value: 3
Key: Krosan Grip, Value: 2
Key: Mindbreak Trap, Value: 2
Key: Firespout, Value: 10
Key: Pestermite, Value: 1
Key: Echoing Truth, Value: 3
Key: Punishing Fire, Value: 4
Key: Blood Moon, Value: 7
Key: Deceiver Exarch, Value: 8
Key: Dark Confidant, Value: 11
Key: Ancient Grudge, Value: 8
Key: Kiln Fiend, Value: 4

So deriving some conclusions...
Playing the draw cartel (ponder,preordain,probe) is absolutely a given
So is playing manamorphose, Sleight of hand is played by about half the players, so is Remand.

Surprisingly only eight copies of Peer Through Depths came up, I think they prefer Sleight. Also Noxious Revival seems to be a popular option.

Muddle the mixture sucks.
Almost nobody plays P-Fire main, or even side for that matter.
That's right people! this is straight up combo, none of those control shenanigans.

The most popular sideboard option is Bob, followed by Firespout!? Another popular option is switching combos to Twin.


I can do the less than 18 points some other day. Or if somebody is interested in doing it themselves, I can send you a copy of the program.

[thefringthing]

In the interest of renewing discussion on this archetype post-cantrip/ritual ban, here's a rough list based on a style of build originating with the folks at goodgamery:

4x Pyromancer Ascension
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Past in Flames
4x Desperate Ritual
3x Reach Through Mists
4x Manamorphose
4x Punishing Fire
4x Noxious Revival
4x Visions of Beyond
8x Island
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Steam Vents
4x Cascade Bluffs

1x Banefire
1x Boomerang
3x Deceiver Exarch
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Magus of the Moon
3x Muddle the Mixture
1x Pestermite
3x Splinter Twin

[Di]

The deck obviously lost a lot without Rite of Flame and the cantrips, so the deck has to take on a more controlling route if it's going to survive. The best way I think this can be achieved is simply playing more burn spells (Grove/Fires) so we can just outright kill people instead of trying to go through the entire deck.

Ironically after the bannings, we received an insane new card for the deck in Forbidden Alchemy. I initially though it'd be weaker than Gifts Ungiven, but Gifts is awfully slow for what is perceived to be an aggro-oriented format and can be clinky. Instead, Alchemy makes up for the lack of Preordain/Ponder quite well by fueling the graveyard for Ascension and working incredibly well with Punishing Fires and working really well with the curve of the deck.

I've been testing and playing this list for the last couple weeks and it's been working out quite well for me.

4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Noxious Revival
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Grapeshot
3 Repeal
2 Firespout

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
4 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard varies (can be twin combo, goyf + vendilion clique, Kiln fiend, general utility, etc)

The list is rather high on maindeck removal, but I think it's necessary. The deck has a much harder time finding Ascension without so many cantrips, so it needs additional removal to stall. Plus, if the format is going to be creature-based, something like maindeck Firespout makes more sense. Maybe Firespout isn't necessary in the maindeck, but given there are two flex slots over the 4th Noxious Revival and Repeal, I think they could really be anything based on a metagame.

[Dissolution]

I've been playing this for the past few weeks in the MTGO Tournament Practice room:


//The enchantment (4)
4x Pyromancer Ascension

//Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Serum Visions

//Instants (24)
4x Manamorphose
4x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Remand
3x Noxious Revival
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Punishing Fire
1x Repeal

//Land (20)
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
3x Island
1x Mountain


//Sideboard
4x Dark Confidant
4x Kiln Fiend
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Repeal


I'm averaging about 80/20 wins against random decks, both 'Tier 1' and jank. I have a few issues against heavy permission (especially on the draw) and decks that can resolve a huge creature (Primeval Titan, Knight of the Reliquary, sometimes Goyf) before I can get the engine online (although none of those is an auto-lose, as Repeal or double-burn can sometimes take them out.
Sideboarding -4 Ascension, -4 Alchemy, -4 Probe, +12 creatures (against most decks) wins game 2 unless they randomly left in creature kill (or they're running Bolt). I believe the transformative sideboard is the best route to take.
Additionally, I win more games with active Fire/Grove than with active Pyromancer.

-T

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone tested out Forbidden Alchemy yet? Seems strong by filling your yard to enable Ascension. Instant speed and digging 4 deep is kind of sexy, too.

EDIT: I should have read page 2, sorry for the troll!