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4eak
08-13-2011, 05:21 PM
Classic concept; it wrecks creatures, hand, land, and life. There may not be many decks which anticipate the sort of mana disruption brought on by Pox/Deathcloud. Abusing, which may be in its favor.

Mono Black, BG, and WB are the major color variations. I think BG and WB variations will play best. I'm just going to get us started here. Here is a Modern BG Pox/Cloud list:

// Lands - 21
5 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creature Ramp - 12
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Sylvan Ranger
4 Viridian Emissary

// Control - 19
4 Smallpox
4 Death Cloud
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Smother
4 Thoughtseize

// Loam Engine - 8
4 Life from the Loam
2 Raven's Crime
2 Worm Harvest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 3 Crime/Punishment
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

Bloodghast, The Rack, and tons of other cards belong in this archetype. I personally like BG and the power of loam in this archetype. There are many paths to go with this deck though.



peace,
4eak

Koby
08-13-2011, 05:25 PM
Innocent Blood isn't a legal card in Modern - perhaps Smother would work better?

4eak
08-13-2011, 05:27 PM
Of course it isn't (doh), I was thinking it was in Planar Chaos (Planechase instead). Smother looks fine.


peace,
4eak

coraz86
08-13-2011, 08:33 PM
A huge problem I've always had playing this style of deck was closing the door once I gain control. When Cloud was in Standard, I liked ramping for a couple turns into Greater Harvester. Resolving a Cloud and leaving a Harvester on the table tends to make people's butts pucker a bit.

Also, Garruk Wildspeaker can be a nice little shot of Enzyte for this deck. Just sayin'.

4eak
08-13-2011, 08:39 PM
I agree. Finding solid ways to finish has always been a problem for Pox. The symmetry of Pox/DCloud's Hand and creature destruction is a serious problem. I tend to find recursive threats are best. Artifacts and PWs are good as well, but often you find yourself being less able to break the symmetry of your main effect as well as you'd like. I'll definitely be testing Garruk.



peace,
4eak

Nidd
08-13-2011, 09:43 PM
Garruk, Primal Hunter looks like he's the man for this kind of deck - his color requirements should be perfectly doable and his +1 alone is enough to close games.
Not to mention that he is a wincondition that doesn't scoop to GY hate.

Garruk Wildspeaker looks nice, too, but I'm not sure - the fact that he can only protect himself at the expense of loyality is kinda meh and I don't think this deck needs more ramp.

Phoenix Ignition
08-13-2011, 11:00 PM
Kitchen Finks is almost a must in a deck like this, if at the very least in the sideboard. I've deathclouded many games in Legacy and even there he is quite powerful, since leaving your opponent with nothing and having a 2/1 yourself is actually much more intimidating than you'd expect. Been working on a deathcloud port of my own, I'll post it eventually.

Aggro_zombies
08-13-2011, 11:09 PM
I'm wondering about Bloodghast in this deck. It seems like getting an opponent to ten life shouldn't be too difficult, and then you sweep them, drop a land, and boom, hit for a bunch more damage.

Mr. Safety
08-16-2011, 01:06 PM
I will be toying with a B/G loam list, and this is what I'm thinking:

4x Viridian Emissary
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Eternal Witness
3x Life from the Loam
4x Smallpox
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Raven's Crime
2x Worm Harvest
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Profane Command
2x Smother
2x Dismember
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Twilight Mire
1x Mutavault
3x Tectonic Edge
4x Swamp
2x Forest


Possible sideboard choices are Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Krosan Grip, Black Sun's Zenith, Damnation, Vexing Shusher, Shriekmaw, Duress, Autumn's Veil, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Nihil Spellbomb, Ravenous Trap, Surgical Extraction, and Extirpate.

Tombstalker and Goyf are obvious possibilities, but they don't offer anything beyond big dumb beats. *shrug* we shall see...

Maveric78f
09-21-2011, 05:03 AM
Following the recent bans, I think that two decks are going to be at least Tiers 2, and probably even Tiers 1: BG Pox and RW Landfall. This topic is here to discuss the former.

The list is still very raw and has not seen any testing yet on my side since Liliana does not exist yet on Cockatrice, but it definitely has some potential. Note that I prefer to call the deck Pox to Death Cloud, because Death Cloud seems a bit overkill and I'm not sure it'll make the cut in the final list.


Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Twilight Mire

Additional mana: 8 (16 with Sakura-Tribe Elder and Mwonvuli Acid-Moss)
4 Life from the Loam
4 Search for Tomorrow

Creatures: 12
4 Bloodghast
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness

Mana denial: 12
4 Smallpox
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
4 Death Cloud

Additional control elements: 8
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard: 15
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Consuming Vapors
SB: 3 Geth's Verdict
SB: 4 Beast Within


Not much to affirm yet, since I have simply looked at some hands, in particular to check if the fact I play only 12 G-providers on turn 1 is a problem.

Twilight Mire looks strong in the deck since we generally want to suspend Search for Tomorrow on turn 1 (avoiding the shockland as much as possible) and play small pox on turn 2.
If we don't have small pox on turn 2, we have high chances to be able to play Mwonvuli Acid Moss on turn 3 and thus to mana ramp into a strong Death Cloud.
Eternal Witness is here to play and replay the pox spells ad nauseam. It's also a good way to break the symmetry of the discard effects, or to tutor a card thanks to the dredge.
I'm not absolutely sure about playing 4*Death Cloud, we definitely want the first one, but the additional ones are pretty useless. We might replace 1 or 2 copies with Gatekeeper of Malakir.
Liliana of the veil's main job is to be an edict effect, it does a good job at discarding the opponent's hand while we can discard LftL, lands, mana acceleration or even better: Bloodghasts. In addition to that, it ensures a strong lock once Death Cloud has been played. The ultimate is a one sided pox effect. Even if it's long to get to this ultimate, pox games tend to be long in terms of turns.
We play 12 manaramp spells and it's important in this kind of deck according to me, because we still want to get the advantage even if the opponent finds enough lands. Also, we want to be able to play Death Cloud as soon as possible, even after a Smallpox.

The sideboard is here only to give an idea, but I don't know yet what are the best MUs of the deck. Against aggro, Vapors and Verdicts look better than Death Clouds. Beast Within is additional land destruction against control/combo. It's still not clear to me what would come out though since the whole deck looks good against control. The 3/3 token is not that much of a problem considering the amount of sacrifice effects we play. Duress and Extirpate are also classical SB cards for black decks, but I don't know exactly when I want to enter them and what against.

Cards that might be interesting for the deck:
- Timely Reinforcement: off color, but it's quite guaranteed we can get it at full power in such a deck. Also it's good for the pox game plan: 6 life to survive until long game, 3 blockers to give tempo against opposing attackers. The W splash would also give access to Knight of the Reliquary, which is a good blocker, a mana provider, and a way to put lands into the graveyard. Well, it's a good card, everybody knows that now.
- Garruks #1, #2, #3: all of them are good in such a deck. The best might be the #1 since it both provides additional mana and blockers. I felt they may be overkill though.
- Gifts Ungiven: off colour but enables to reduce the amount of Life from the Loam and Death Cloud in the deck and to fetch for approximately any card of the deck, thanks to Witness and probably another regrowth card. I feel that in some games it might be problematic to wait for 4 manas before being able to find LftL, because reflexive discard might be an issue.
- Raven's Crime: fits perfectly in the deck's theme. However, I feel we already play a lot of discard (16) and it looks useless in addition of Liliana. 1 copy in the deck should not be a bummer though.

Mr. Safety
09-21-2011, 10:04 AM
This is my current plan for Pox, and it avoids Death Cloud altogether (because I feel Smallpox is powerful enough to stunt your opponent, thus allowing your game to move forward.)

Creatures - 14
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Eternal Witness
3x Tombstalker

Sorceries - 18
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
2x Life from the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Crime//Punishment
1x Profane Command

Instants - 2
2x Dismember

Artifacts - 2
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Loxodon Warhammer

Lands - 23
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Godless Shrine
1x Twilight Mire
1x Fetid Heath
1x Treetop Village
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Forest
7x Swamp
1x Plains


I really like Knight of the Reliquary in this setup. I know that Bloodgast is great and all at inevitability, but I'd rather just concentrate on blowing stuff up and have a fat Knight to beat with. I don't have Pernicious Deed available, so I'm using Crime/Punishment and Engineered Explosives. I may up EE to 2 in the main, I'm not sure yet.

Path is a neccessity, I think. Tarmogoyf is good and all, but I don't want turn 2 competing with Smallpox. I'd rather have Eternal Witness in green to recur the control and create a decent loop with Profane Command. Smallpox will blunt all of the aggro decks (sure to crop up) and will hurt the quasi-control decks as well. Combo? There's a full 11 discard effects in the deck.

Sideboard is up in the air right now, with options like Ethersworn Canonist, Rule of Law, Oblivion Ring, Black Sun's Zenith, Dismember, Kitchen Finks, Surgical Extraction, Harmonize, and Putrefy on my mind.

4eak
09-21-2011, 01:26 PM
Pox/Deathcloud threads merged.

-4eak

Phoenix Ignition
09-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Smallpox should never ever ever be run with Path to Exile.

Mr. Safety
09-21-2011, 02:39 PM
Hmmm...you make a poignant statement, lol. I didn't even think about it. I put in Knight of the Reliquary and Crime/Punishment as white splashes so I figured 'use the best removal of the format'. DOH!

It will most likely become Dismember x2 and then add in another EE/Witness.

4eak
09-24-2011, 10:18 PM
As Maverick points out, Liliana of the Veil is very good in this deck. I decided to rebuild around her. Not surprisingly, I come up with a deck that is a lot like Maverick's with some similar thoughts. The list:

// Lands - 21
4 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Mana Acceleration - 8
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

// Symmetrical Control - 10
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Death Cloud

// 1-for-1 Hand Control - 6
2 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

// 1-for-1 Board Control - 3
3 Maelstrom Pulse

// Recursion - 13
4 Eternal Witness
4 Bloodghast
4 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Death Cloud

You really want to break the symmetry of Smallpox, Liliana, and DCloud. Crime, Bloodghast, Loam, Lands (because of Loam), and Worm Harvest all help break the symmetry of these cards directly. E-witness helps you in those catch-22's where you weren't able to break the symmetry and lost a valuable card earlier in the game, and it let's you recur Smallpox and Pulse (common targets) in most other cases.

The deck relies on recursive threats, and so you sort of want some variety, as you can't really afford to eat too many Extirpates/SExtraction (:P), etc. Worm Harvest has been good to me in a lot of situations. I recommend it (even if only as a 1-of in your SB).

I am not focusing as much on LD-locks. I think hand-destruction and board-destruction are really what make this deck tick (we lack important cards like Wasteland to truly go for the LD-lock plan). The mana-acceleration exists, in part, to help break the symmetry of your Pox/DCloud effects (you won't always have a loam), but also to help you snow-ball your advantage against your opponent. You will win some games due to locking your opponent out of lands, but I think we gain more by pursuing a regular board/hand softlock while gradually out-tempoing our opponents over time with acceleration/loam.



peace,
4eak

Madak17
09-24-2011, 10:44 PM
I am not focusing as much on LD-locks. I think hand-destruction and board-destruction are really what make this deck tick (we lack important cards like Wasteland to truly go for the LD-lock plan).

I think Crucible + Ghost Quarter would work against a decent number of decks (those that only run a handful of basic lands). Might be worth giving that a shot.



// Sideboard
SB: 3 Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Death Cloud


Engineered Plague isn't legal in modern unfortunately :(

4eak
09-24-2011, 11:11 PM
I think Crucible + Ghost Quarter would work against a decent number of decks (those that only run a handful of basic lands). Might be worth giving that a shot.

Loam + GQuarter does this as well. The lock really isn't great though. You really want this sort of lock (which takes time to set up) to start working actually shrinking your opponent's mana-base immediately (and even a few basics in the deck can buy them enough time to find the answer). It's also rough on the mana-base (which is already pushed hard). I'll try it again.


Engineered Plague isn't legal in modern unfortunately :(

Damn, it isn't =(. I need to pay closer attention. Well, let's replace it with Culling Scales for now.


peace,
4eak

Mr. Safety
09-26-2011, 07:11 AM
I use the Raven's Crime/Loam engine in my BUG list, and I have to say that even with Gifts Ungiven in my deck, I've stuck to 3 copies. It really gives you the edge in the control matchup, for sure. I've been doing some synergistic tricks like using Deprive in that setup as well, bouncing & replaying Halimar Depths, and using the land bounced to feed Raven's Crime. My big quandry is whether or not I really need blue in my deck at all, and if I cut blue, it would look very similar to this setup (I have the Smallpox's, Worm Harvests, and Garruks just sitting in my binder...)

Anarky87
10-25-2011, 02:11 PM
I've been toying around with Death Cloud recently.

4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Woodland Cemetery
9 Swamp
6 Forest
2 Treetop Village

4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Smother
3 Death Cloud
2 Call of the Herd
2 Damnation

4 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Garruk Primal Hunter seems extremely awesome in the deck and would solve the problem of card draw while being able to pump out fatties.

Anarky87
10-27-2011, 01:05 PM
What are people's thoughts on Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Wildspeaker? I'm currently running the Wildspeaker, but looking at the Primal Hunter, it seems to do the things I need in my deck. +1's that spit out 3/3's and his -3 pretty much handles the card draw I would need. All for just 1 more green.

With Wildspeaker I have to use -1's to make tokens, and I feel like I hardly use his Untap 2 Lands ability that often.

Mr. Safety
10-27-2011, 03:01 PM
What are people's thoughts on Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Wildspeaker? I'm currently running the Wildspeaker, but looking at the Primal Hunter, it seems to do the things I need in my deck. +1's that spit out 3/3's and his -3 pretty much handles the card draw I would need. All for just 1 more green.

With Wildspeaker I have to use -1's to make tokens, and I feel like I hardly use his Untap 2 Lands ability that often.

I would say Garruk, PH is better. I used Garruk Wildspeaker in modern for a little while, but he is easily answered. If you just untap a couple of lands without anything relivant to follow up with, your just building loyalty (which may or may not be relivant.) If you make a 3/3 beast right away (this is the real reason for him, so you can have 'free' threats in the mid-late game) then he's susceptable to even the smallest of 2/x threats or burn spells/Grim Lavamancer. Now you've gotten a Gnarled Mass for 4 mana instead of 3, and one that is more easily removed (bounce, Explosives).

The great part about Garruk, Primal Hunter is that by making tokens you ADD to his loyalty, meaning you will likely have him for another turn and still have something relivant for your 5 mana the same turn. The card draw function is just amazing, even with just the one token you made.

My vote goes to Garruk, PH.

4eak
10-27-2011, 03:37 PM
I think Liliana of the Veil is far and away the best PW for this archetype. If you won't include Liliana for budget reasons, and we are strictly looking at Garruk, Primal Hunter vs. Garruk Wildspeaker, then my vote is for Garruk PH as well. The card has been the better of the two in my testing, and I agree with Mr. Safety's explanation.


peace,
4eak

Mr. Safety
10-27-2011, 04:22 PM
Absolutely, I was just comparing Garruk w/Garruk. Liliana is the nuts, for sure. Three mana for (at minimum) an Edict effect or Raven's Crime isn't too bad, especially since the Raven's Crime effect builds loyalty, putting her out of kill range that much faster. The Edict effect essentially protects her, as you can hopefully pick off a threat that could attack into her.

Long story short (too late): agreed.

EDIT: I don't think Sorin Markov is bad either, the only real barrier being his 6-mana cost. His first and second abilities are pretty hot though. If you haven't gotten an offense going yet, getting them to 10 life the same turn is huge (I'm thinking it would be awesome vs Soul Sisters). His first ability of having a mini-Lightning Helix isn't bad, either. His ultimate is kind of 'meh', but having a Mindslaver isn't bad considering it can essentially buy you an extra turn vs the aggro and combo decks.

Anarky87
10-27-2011, 06:07 PM
I just didn't find Liliana that bedazzling when I was trying her out. She felt kind of awkward whenever I had her since I didn't have any real way to protect her. If I played her early, aggro just blew her up, when I played her later, she didn't really matter as I already had the game tied up anyway. So I just ended up cutting her for now. I'll probably end up going with G, PH in the end; too bad I don't have any atm.

Mr. Safety
10-28-2011, 08:14 AM
Try Sorin Markov then, if you have some of those, until you can get the Garruk PH's.

Anarky87
10-30-2011, 04:10 PM
I've also been trying out a version of the deck with Life from the Loam to see which I like more.

9 Swamp
6 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Verdant Catacomb
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Treetop Village

4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Kitchen Finks

4 Inquisition
4 Smother
4 Small Pox
3 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Damnation
2 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest

3 Garruk, Primal Hunter

I think this version packs a little more removal, becomes more resilient with LftL to rebuild, has the PH to pump out dudes after a DC and also serve as a draw engine, and finally has Worm Harvest (love this card) for a late game finisher. Though Pulse might be too slow and replaced with some other pinpoint removal.

No_Life_No_Future
07-31-2012, 10:53 PM
I have been toying with this deck myself for a couple of days on mtgo. I won a couple of matches, but mostly I just got my face beaten in. I think I have made improvements but the deck still seems kinda slow and way way too fair. You guys should consider splashing white. I don't own any tarmogoyf online, but I am not sure it would be that good here because it does not play well with small pox.

BGw Deathcloud
Lands 24:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Forest
4 Swamp

Win Conditions 15:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Viridian Emissary
3 Lingering Souls
4 Kitchen Finks

Disruption 15:
2 Death Cloud
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

Parity Breakers 6:
2 Life from the Loam
4 Explore

Sideboard 15:
2 Raven's Crime
2 Darkblast
2 Duress
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
2 Pithing Needle

I am still testing explore. The deck plays out the following way.
Turn 1: Thoughtsieze or Intuitions of Kozilek
Turn 2: Dark Confidant or Viridian Emissary <---i would always play confidant 1st.
Turn 3: Kitchen Finks or Liliana of the Veil
Turn 5/6: A Death Cloud is usually enough to create a situation where you have a huge advantage. The problem is that your opponent can sometimes still topdeck their way back into the game if your clock isn't fast.

Some cards that I tried and cut:
Bloodghast
Treefolk Village
Vampire Nighthawk

I wish there were some better turn 1 plays besides just disrupting the opponent.

What do you guys think?

Phoenix Ignition
08-01-2012, 01:01 AM
What do you guys think?

First off I think your mana base needs 1-3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. In my previous testing of this deck it absolutely needs Treetop Villages, the only reason you might not have added it is because of color problems, which Urborg can fix. Treetop is a great way to ensure your opponent can't just top deck into victory.

I haven't tried a white splash for Lingering Souls, but it seems to fit very well in the deck, so I'm a fan. The only problem being the 3rd color addition, but without testing it feels like it's worth it. I've always wanted to fit Knight of the Reliquary in here, but I honestly don't know if or where it fits in.

Other than that I don't have much to add, I'll be looking into some Death Cloud variants soon as I am in love with the deck in every format it's viable in. I'll let you know if I come up with something.

EDIT: Oh, one further idea, no idea if it's good, you might want to fill in ~2 Raven's Crime instead of some other hand hate, what with the Loams already. Something to think about

Mr. Safety
08-05-2012, 12:10 PM
I think anything playing Life from the Loam alongside Deathcloud/Smallpox should be using all 4 Treetop Villages.

Peruzo
08-09-2012, 10:56 PM
Hi guys, i'll post my list so we can elaborate:

3Xtreetop village
4Xverdant catacombs
2Xmarsh flats
3Xghost quarter
4Xforest
3Xswamp
3Xgolgari rot farm
3Xovergrown tomb

Creatures:
4X Tarmogoyf
4X Sakura-Tribe Elder
4X Kitchen Finks
2XEternal witness

Sorceries:
4XRaven's crime
3XLife from the loam
2XDamnation
2XPrimal Command
3XDeath Cloud

Instants:
3XGo for the throat

Planeswalker:
4XGarruk Wildspeaker

I find necessary the acceleration provided by Garruk WS, as well as being able to do several things in one turn. Go for the throat takes the spot instead of smother due to Restoration Angel + Kikijiki. Crime is good without loam, Great to Excellent with it. Witness in hand lets you dredge loam without fear.

Let me know your commments.

Phoenix Ignition
08-12-2012, 01:24 PM
You might want to add some number of Shriekmaw, I've found him to greatly improve my lists. 3x Ghost Quarter with the need for :g::g: + :b::b::b: is a little strange. By the time you actually LtfL + Ghost Quarter anyone out of a game you most likely could have just won already anyway, and I doubt you'll win more games with this than you lose from not being able to play your spells as you curve out.

Use a couple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Hardcore
08-12-2012, 01:46 PM
why play death cloud over pox?

Phoenix Ignition
08-12-2012, 01:57 PM
why play death cloud over pox?

Because Modern.

Phoenix Ignition
08-17-2012, 01:30 AM
I'm to the point with my deck that I think it's ready for other people to start testing with it. It's quite good, and I'd say at most 3 slots are flexible at this point. I'll do a small primer for it in case any newcomers are getting into the format.

Death Cloud deck:
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Olivia Voldaren

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Primal Command

4 Tragic Slip
2 Death Cloud
2 Damnation

23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Twilight Mire
3 Treetop Village
1 Stomping Ground

Sideboard:
1 Choke
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Crime
1 Thragtusk
3 Damping Matrix
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Thoughtseize


This is more of a G/B control deck, as I shied away from playing more copies of Death Cloud. Right now there are too many counterspells going around, especially Remand to reasonably expect to land the Deck's namesake, and I'd rather be realistic about our chances on that.

Card Choices:
No Smallpox: I don't like Smallpox as unless you get a very lucky start with it, you're worse off than the opponent is after casting it. Granted your deck would be built around it, but it's lackluster early on, and I would say it's a completely different strategy than winning with Death Cloud. Death Cloud you cast mid-late game to close out the victory.

No Life from the Loam engine: Modern doesn't have good enough lands to run this. While this + Raven's Crime + Worm Harvest can get going in the very late game, it isn't effective enough in the first 4-5 turns, which is where Modern is really played. There are too many combo decks and burn decks that are okay with discarding a couple of cards and still beating you to death in this time.

7 Discard: While this creates dead draws late game, I feel it is necessary to both hit people's counter spells and stop combo decks. The spells this deck plays beat the spells other decks play, as long as they don't combo out, so stopping combo + countermagic leaves us clear to win. Extras can also be pitched to Liliana and Death Cloud.

Creatures of the deck: I put all of the creatures in this deck expecting them to get Path to Exiled as they enter play. That's basically true, what with the Snapcaster + Paths everywhere. That or the burn.

Thragtusk: This card is amazing for the deck. You don't have to worry about sac'ing it to Death Cloud or Damnation, and it puts us far ahead in aggro matchups.

Sakura + Wood Elves: I want to hit 5 mana by turn 4 consistently. These two let me do that. I also want to beat the 1 land drop per turn curve, so Wood Elves got the nod over Viridian Shaman (who we can't always count on for extra lands) and Sylvan Ranger.

Shriekmaw: Hard to counter via the normal spells( Spell Pierce Spell Snare), but lack of ability to kill artifacts and lack of targets in some decks may move him to 3. Seriously try him out before dismissing him.

Primal Command: The grab a creature mode and either bounce a permanent or gain 7 are the most commonly used, but having the ability to shuffle someones graveyard in the main is always good as well. This spell is great, but may prove unnecessary if the life gain of Thragtusks + Kitchen Finks is enough to beat sligh decks.

Tragic Slip: This is one of the greatest cards in the deck -- seriously! It takes out half of the creatures you don't want to see (Delver of secrets, Steppe lynx, Vendilion Clique, Dark Confidant, Noble Hierarch, Viscera Seer, Grim Lavamancer, etc.) without having to have something die first, but Sakura and Shriekmaw (or just chump blocking) can power it up to kill Everything that isn't Emrakul!. It takes out most of the 1-drop annoyances in the format, and 1/2 of affinity's creatures. If anyone even uses a Birthing Pod it is automatically powered up and can take out any part of the combo you need. You can beat the slower creature combo decks (UR Splinter Twin) just by leaving out a Sakura-Tribe Elder. Remand, Spell Pierce, and Mana Leak are virtually useless against this.

Everything else is rather self explanatory. I know there isn't much activity in these forums, but let me know what you think of the deck (preferably after playing it).

magicmoocow
10-17-2012, 02:57 PM
Resurrecting the Death Cloud!

With Return to Ravnica, I believe this deck gets two great additions.

First, Abrupt Decay is obviously great and is an upgrade to Smother which I know a bunch of lists ran (mine tended to run a few.) Being uncounterable creature kill as well as being able to blow up cheap artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers is a serious upside.

Secondly, and others may disagree, Deathrite Shaman is just great in this deck. I've always wanted turn one ramp but something like Llanowar Elves has always been lackluster. Drawing an elf after a cloud just doesn't do much. This however provides ramp, utility and reach. It pulls me in the direction of playing Kodama's Reach and Cultivate which is a good turn 2 play for this deck and OK on turn three (I would want to be playing a Garruk Wildspeaker on turn 3.)

A rough maindeck off the top of my head:


4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Treetop Village

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Cultivate
2 Kodama's Reach
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Damnation
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Death Cloud


Again just a general list. Not definitive obviously.

Thoughts?

Phoenix Ignition
10-18-2012, 06:25 PM
I like Wood Elves over Cultivate/Kodama's Reach. Having a blocker to get you into the late game with plenty of life is necessary, and in top deck mode I've even won a few games with swinging for 6+ damage from one.

I'm interested in Deathright shaman, but 4-of is probably too many, and mana dorks get eaten alive by Deathcloud anyway, so I'm still wary of him.

Other than that I don't see a lot of big card advantage engines, it looks like you're trying to win with 3/3s and Death Cloud, which from experience is probably not enough to work. Maybe DR shaman is enough to push you over the top though, I'll have to test him.

Mr. Safety
10-19-2012, 09:01 AM
If I wasn't a such a slut to Gift's Ungiven I'd be playing this in modern for sure. Abrupt Decay brings an amazing amount of utility to the deck for less mana than Maelstrom Pulse, which is huge considering Smallpox and Death Cloud mana-denial.

I like the Eternal Witness/Profane Command late game for DC/Pox decks in modern, too. Singletons are enough and they go a long way towards providing a metric ton of card advantage. Garruk Wildspeaker and Profane Command combine for big plays that can really wreck anything opponent's bring. When that combination was in standard with G/B elves I would pop off a profane command for 7 quite often, dinging for 7 mana while killing a Cloudthresher. This deck loves the long game, it gets better the longer the game goes.

Truthfully, I really like the Loam/Raven's Crime synergy for a deck like this but I understand why folks aren't using it (its a little too cumbersome and doesn't have enough immediate effect on a fast format like modern.) Loam I think would be a shoe-in, at least 2 of them.

A few more cards I think could have some good impact in a DC/Pox deck:

Primeval Titan
Garruk Relentless
Grisly Salvage (Obviously only with Loam)
Garruk, Primal Hunter (Any of the Garruks work well in this deck...three green may be tough but the utility is big.)
Abyssal Persecutor (Lots of ways to get him off the table once you have inevitability and he beats big for cheap)

Other than that I think Leyline of Sanctity should be in this deck's sideboard (almost every modern deck can benefit from Leyline) and a way to drive inevitability with this deck once an opponent is short on cards and the board is clear. That's where I think Profane/Witness or one of the Garruks should step in. I wouldn't be opposed to a 2/2 split of Wildspeaker and Primal Hunter...the card draw is big and three green shouldn't be too much to ask in the late game. Its the 5 mana I'm wary of...but Worm Harvest is a classic finisher for a deck like this and Loam makes it happen. Garruk Relentless is also great for dinging weenies that make it onto the table and providing a stream of 1/1 deathtouch dudes. Testing would have to be done extensively with all 3 I think.

Just some thoughts...

Phoenix Ignition
10-19-2012, 02:58 PM
Profane Command:

This card just isn't as good as Primal Command, unless you do have ~9 mana. The problem is none of its modes just win you the game, whereas +7 life and dig for a Finks/thragtusk wins against aggro, Bounce permanent on top + shuffle graveyard into library can easily win against Storm (or try to hold off Tron), and any utility in between that gives you card advantage, and is just so much better than killing a guy. Profane can be awesome, but most of the time you're not going to kill them with the -X life and the other modes are just okay.

Loam (with or without Ravens Crime):
Loam doesn't do enough, even with man lands. First, at best it will help you hit land drops to ramp into your game winning Death Cloud, but it isn't as good as a Rampant growth at speeding you into this, which in a fast format like Modern is pretty necessary. Second, you won't be requiring it unless you actually have cast Death Cloud already, in which case you should be winning. Lastly, like I said, there just isn't a good reason for it. Nothing here is that great with it (Witness is sort of turned on, I guess), and getting back a few fetch lands or at best a Treetop is pretty lackluster. The Raven's Crime package as you mentioned does add a bit of card advantage to it, but is also just too slow, and discarding lands instead of playing them before you get a Loam is just not going to happen.

Primeval Titan: Costs 6 and doesn't win you the game. I'd play Grave Titan over him, but truthfully neither of these has a big enough impact. Once you hit the 6 land amount chances are pretty good your thought isn't, "If I only had 2 Rampant Growths right now!". There aren't any combo lands in here, so basically the best you can get is 2 Treetop villages and thin your deck.

Garruk Relentless: Not as good as other garruks, and playing 5 garruks that cost 4 is bad.

Garruk, Primal Hunter: Decent, but in playtesting I found I'd rather have Primal Command in this slot, as it is relevant against more decks that we have troubles with. G,PH can't really help in the more unfair matchups, which are the ones we need more help against, while Primal Command can.

Persecutor: I've tried to play him in here, but having a big beating fatty just isn't as good as you'd hope. Utility creatures seem necessary here, but his drawback also can really hurt. If Cabal Therapy was legal, I would most likely be playing him, but since it isn't, Persecutor just doesn't really cut it.

One of the huge subtleties about this deck that I noticed from playtesting a lot is since you're only playing 4-8 real creature threats, and a lot of your other spells are rampant-growthy, you need to make sure each of the threats is going to affect the gamestate even if he gets immediately Path to Exiled. That changed my list a lot, I splashed red to have access to Huntmaster and a 1-of Olivia just because both of them can (at least if you have 6 mana) help you as soon as they hit the board. Shriekmaw and Thragtusk also follow this reasoning. You just can't play things that are going to get 1 for 1ed because the amount of actual threats in the deck is relatively low, or equal to the number of removal people play.

Saying that, after switching to all super card advantage creatures, I think this is the only way to play Death Cloud. Having Tarmogoyf or Persecutor in here just don't do enough, from what I've seen.

Mr. Safety
10-19-2012, 03:42 PM
You obviously have much more experience than I with this deck, so I'm going to take your word for it.

I was assuming Loam would be a way to break the symmetry of Death Cloud, and especially Smallpox (if you play Smallpox...it doesn't look like many lists have it in there.) Without Smallpox I agree...Loam isn't worth the slots.

Thanks for the input on the fatties/Profane. I have already been convinced that Primal Command is better than Profane Command in BUG Gifts, the reasoning works the same here.

One more question: is there a reason that Sakura-Tribe Elder wins over Viridian Emissary? I suppose STE is much more flexible, but on the other hand Emmisary hits for 2. Curious about your thoughts...and if you could, would you play an Emmisary as STE number five, or would you stick to Solemn Simulacrum because of the card advantage (despite the added cost)?

Phoenix Ignition
10-19-2012, 05:15 PM
You obviously have much more experience than I with this deck, so I'm going to take your word for it.
Hah, doesn't mean I'm right though.


I was assuming Loam would be a way to break the symmetry of Death Cloud, and especially Smallpox (if you play Smallpox...it doesn't look like many lists have it in there.) Without Smallpox I agree...Loam isn't worth the slots.
I've tried some Smallpox versions of my list as well, but the card is just not as good against unfair decks. Basically, if you draw it late game and you're playing against a non-creature deck, it is pretty bad, or if you draw it late game and are playing against a deck that has smaller creatures than yours (pretty understandable that you chump blocked with your 1/1s by then) it's bad. I'd like to make it work but I don't think the card really does.



One more question: is there a reason that Sakura-Tribe Elder wins over Viridian Emissary? I suppose STE is much more flexible, but on the other hand Emmisary hits for 2. Curious about your thoughts...and if you could, would you play an Emmisary as STE number five, or would you stick to Solemn Simulacrum because of the card advantage (despite the added cost)?
Tribe Elder can be a rampant growth when you want him to, so on turn 2 you can ensure your turn 3 is going to be good. Emissary depends on your ability to kill him (not something you want to do) or relying on your opponent to make a bad choice (swinging into him when you look like you want the mana). He "saves" a land for Deathcloud, but you want to ramp into Death Cloud, not be protected from it.

The inability to get the land when you want it is the real problem, and reason I don't use him as STE #5. If I need to ramp I can't wait to have the opponent kill him, and I don't want to waste a turn of Liliana on it. Again, if Cabal Therapy were legal, this is another card I would be all over. I wouldn't use Solemn as he costs 4 and you could be playing awesome things instead.

One thing to understand about Death Cloud is that you really want to ramp lands out quickly. You want to have 3 more than the opponent, because then when you tap out for Death Cloud you're in a very serious advantage. I don't particularly like mana dorks or Garruk to untap lands because ending up on less than 3 (after you both lose all your creatures and cards in hand) is making it more of an even trade with the opponent. They could get some lucky top decks and win. Garruk is better because you obviously can pump out 3/3 tokens every turn, but I found myself liking him less and less because his power level isn't where I wanted it.

Mr. Safety
10-20-2012, 09:10 AM
Emissary is good with Smallpox and loam, again if that were the approach. Attack for two, Smallpox, profit.

Nice summary.

Mirrislegend
10-21-2012, 05:47 PM
The absolute best creatures for this deck are Kitchen Finks (at double green) and Geralf's Messenger (at triple black). That is where this concept falls short. Even with all the fixing in the world, we can't consistently make that happen. But I tried:

I designed this deck as an aggro concept. Apply pressure, Smallpox, more pressure, etc. Here's the shell I made:

4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Bloodghast
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Geralf's Messenger

4 Inquisition
4 Smallpox
8 Slots left

24 land

This was designed a while ago, so the extra slots are probably Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay

Phoenix Ignition
10-21-2012, 10:42 PM
The absolute best creatures for this deck are Kitchen Finks (at double green) and Geralf's Messenger (at triple black). That is where this concept falls short. Even with all the fixing in the world, we can't consistently make that happen. But I tried:

I designed this deck as an aggro concept. Apply pressure, Smallpox, more pressure, etc. Here's the shell I made:

4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Bloodghast
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Geralf's Messenger

4 Inquisition
4 Smallpox
8 Slots left

24 land

This was designed a while ago, so the extra slots are probably Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay

You're trying to be too cute. Your deck is revolving around "things that are good with pox/deathcloud" instead of just "things that are good (with death cloud/pox)." Decks fail if they are built around a single card because you won't always draw that card and even if you do, it isn't always good. Make a deck that works with pox without using things that suck without it.

Also, splashing red for Huntmasters is just amazing.

DragoFireheart
10-22-2012, 12:18 PM
How about some Vengevines in this deck? Or do we not have enough creatures?

Phoenix Ignition
10-22-2012, 07:36 PM
How about some Vengevines in this deck? Or do we not have enough creatures?

Not enough creatures, and trying to use the ones that let you recast (gravecrawler) is going to water down the deck.

Jedi
02-21-2013, 03:21 AM
Hi all, I'm new to these forums and I see this thread hasn't had much activity lately. I'm planning on taking a Smallpox-type deck to my LGS this weekend with the list below.

This deck is designed to be a control deck via discard. I'm not trying to rely on Smallpox to get the win (although that happens!). The primary win conditions are the Shrieking Affliction/The Rack combination along with some pecking by creatures. In testing, Vraska's -3 has been very useful mainboard while her assassins have pulled out a few wins for me too.

23 Lands:
2 Blinkmoth Nexus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blinkmoth%20Nexus)
2 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest)
4 Overgrown Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Tomb)
3 Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
2 Tectonic Edge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tectonic%20Edge)
2 Twilight Mire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Twilight%20Mire)
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Verdant%20Catacombs)
4 Woodland Cemetery (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Woodland%20Cemetery)

13 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark%20Confidant)
4 Deathrite Shaman (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Deathrite%20Shaman)
2 Eternal Witness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eternal%20Witness)
3 Hypnotic Specter (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hypnotic%20Specter)

18 Other Spells:
2 Abrupt Decay (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Abrupt%20Decay)
3 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek)
2 Shrieking Affliction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shrieking%20Affliction)
3 Smallpox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Smallpox)
1 The Rack (http://deckbox.org/mtg/The%20Rack)
3 Thoughtseize (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thoughtseize)

6 Planeswalkers:
4 Liliana of the Veil (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil)
2 Vraska the Unseen (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vraska%20the%20Unseen)

15 Sideboard:
2 Damnation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Damnation)
1 Extirpate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Extirpate)
3 Infest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Infest)
3 Maelstrom Pulse (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Maelstrom%20Pulse)
2 Ratchet Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ratchet%20Bomb)
2 Surgical Extraction (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Surgical%20Extraction)
2 Torpor Orb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Torpor%20Orb)

Any thoughts/opinions/suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

Polish Tamales
03-02-2013, 03:49 PM
I've been playing around with the idea of playing POX in Modern for a while.

When I was designing the deck, Smi77y on twitter started playtesting his own list and helped me a bit streamlining possible match ups that would be an issue for the deck. Leyline of Sanctity games 2~3 seemed a bit too much for the deck to handle without a faster win condition. I was able to come up with the solution by adding in Hunted Horror. With Leyline in play, you literally get a 7/7 trampler for BB. Not too shabby.

Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darkblast
3 Disfigure
1 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Go for the Throat
1 Infest
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
3 Shrieking Affliction
4 Smallpox
2 The Rack
2 Thoughtseize

2 Bojuka Bog
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
1 Damping Matrix
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hunted Horror
1 Infest
1 Mutilate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Surgical Extraction

Mr. Safety
06-27-2013, 07:53 PM
I am resurrecting this deck for some local tournaments, here is my current list. I pulled on Reid Duke's list from SCG in an article about a month back and tweaked it slightly.


4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Tombstalker

4x Smallpox
3x Death Cloud
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Treetop Village
2x Golgari Rot Farm
6x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Tectonic Edge

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life from the Loam
2x Crime//Punishment
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress
2x Mutilate

kwis
06-27-2013, 09:33 PM
The decks plan is to blow away the hand/board and win with Garruk's -1 right?

Mr. Safety
06-28-2013, 01:40 PM
Essentially, yes. Treetop beats usually show up in the mid-late game as well. The deck grinds well, really well. It's not a fast deck, at least not against control decks. Against aggro it settles things fairly quickly, and I haven't playtested against combo yet.

EDIT: I edited my above list. Finks are in the sideboard now where they belong, and I have Mutilate in there (because I don't have Damnations.)

If you're wondering if Garruk Wildspeaker is good enough, let me assure you: he's FANTASTIC. It's correct to play 4 of him, because he's one of the best threats, especially with Smallpox/Death Cloud in the mix. Tick him up for a big Cloud, then follow up with a 3/3 beast every turn. Think Lingering Souls but 3/3 beasts constantly annoying players rather than 1/1 flyers.

The deck has trouble pre-board against B/W tokens. Post board brings in Crime//Punishment, Mutilate, and Surgical Extraction and then it becomes a much easier matchup. Smallpox and Death Cloud leave, they just don't do enough against tokens.

I have also played against G/R Tron, and it seems about even. You need to rip Karn from their hand with Thoughtseize, and sideboard in Needles for him. Death Cloud is usually AMAZING against them if you can keep them off a turn 3 Karn. Wurmcoil Engine is a problem, the lifelink is just so brutal. It gets them right back into the game. We need an exile effect in the board for sure, but I don't know what that could be (Eradicate comes to mind.) Relic of Progenitus is good, but maindeck Decay's deal with it ok.

Against Jund decks, Death Cloud is great but Smallpox is even better. Smallpox is amazing against anything with Deathrite Shamans in it. I board out my own Shamans for Needles and Extractions against Jund/Deathrite decks. Then just let Garruk do his thing and make a bunch of 3/3's.

I played against American Control (I think it's a fringe deck) and it's winnable, but it takes a long time. Garruk again shines by letting you grind them out with big mana and lots of tokens. Sphinx's Revelation is a good card against us; Extraction out of the board and then grind them out.

That's my testing so far. It feels like a really powerful deck, and I'm looking forward to bringing it to my next local tournament on Tuesday. Wish me luck!

kwis
06-28-2013, 04:32 PM
Nope, I know Garruk is amazing and the 4-of shows how critical he is to the deck. He seems like the difference maker that lets you cloud for 4-5 and blow away the opposing player as opposed to clouding for a miniscule amount. The fact that he also sticks around to win the game is also pretty awesome.

Mr. Safety
06-29-2013, 11:26 AM
Nope, I know Garruk is amazing and the 4-of shows how critical he is to the deck. He seems like the difference maker that lets you cloud for 4-5 and blow away the opposing player as opposed to clouding for a miniscule amount. The fact that he also sticks around to win the game is also pretty awesome.

Bingo, the core synergy is Garruk + Death Cloud. I'm debating a 4th Death Cloud in the maindeck, but Smallpox is faster on the board and can often be a mini-cloud to play the disruption game, followed by Goyf/Stalker beats.

Mr. Safety
07-01-2013, 04:18 PM
Played against another Source member today on MWS (named 'Gepard' on MWS.) He cleaned my clock 2-0 with mono-green Good Stuff aggro. Ulvenwald Tracker is a beast!

Erdvermampfa
07-02-2013, 08:37 AM
Mr.Safety, that was me yesterday, thanks for the games again.

If the list from above is still the most recent one, I would to like to express some thoughts on it. First of all, what's really striking is the amount of 2- and 3-ofs you run. I'm of the opinion that this should be urgently avoided in this format since decks (especially nonblue) severly lack library manipulation. I think we are all too accustomed to legacy rock where you can just rely on Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Confidant to find your 2- and 3-ofs. Hence, I especially have to dissent with Death Cloud as a 3of because the card appears to be key in your deck. I think it would noticeably improve your matchup against a wide range of decks if you drew Death Cloud more often.

Furthermore, your list somewhat seems to be a mixture of G/B Midrange and and G/B Deathcloud Control which means that I find your card choice contradictory to an extent. One the one hand, you run cheap creatures like Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf, while on the other you include cards like Smallpox and said Death Cloud which barely play well with own creatures. Though the latter can serve as a wall at early stage of the game and as a finisher after cleansing the board, the initial seems completely out of place to be honest as it's awful in conjunction with Smallpox. Although I'm aware that it's certainly useful to take over the aggressive role with Shaman in some matchups, I'd still abstain from running it along with Smallpox.

One a side note, I expect a lot of people playing Scavenging Ooze once it's legal (as I did yesterday), so I would contemplate how to adapt to it because right now your decks seems a bit dependent on the graveyard.

Mind that I haven't tested Death cloud in modern extensively so I might be wrong. Also, don't mind that loss yesterday because my deck is actually some nonrelevant selfbrewn pile (at least until people realize how awesome Ulvenwald Tracker is in conjunction with Predator Ooze ;) )

Sughayyer
07-02-2013, 02:20 PM
That is true, I tested your build today and I didn't feel very comfortable with it. Everytime I cast a smallpox I hurt my gameplan badly, and I felt I needed more ramping to cast faster and more efficient death clouds. I'm not even sure if smallpox belongs here, but shaman and goyf probably do not. Also a maindeck loam could be fine.

Mr. Safety
07-02-2013, 04:49 PM
Good thoughts, and I appreciate them greatly! I would love to hear some suggestions as to how to tweak the deck. I have heard a few suggestions on how to cut cards, but not a lot about what to REPLACE them with.

Here is my current list that won't change until after tonight:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Eternal Witness
1x Tombstalker

4x Smallpox
4x Death Cloud
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Golgari Rot Farm
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Treetop Village
1x Tectonic Edge
6x Swamp
2x Forest

Sideboard
2x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
2x Crime//Punishment
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Cranial Extraction
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Maelstrom Pulse


A few notes on card choices (2-3 of's): I only have 3x Tarmogoyf, 3x Abrupt Decay, 3x Liliana, and 2x Kitchen Finks. I also only have 1x Overgrown Tomb at the moment. Nothing is beyond my reach, I just don't have them RIGHT NOW to make the deck optimal. I've been spending a lot of time (and money) on Legacy lately, but now this is a priority (after I see how badly I tank, lol)

My first tournament is tonight (Tuesday, 7/2/13) so I won't be making any big changes for now. I've been practicing too much with the deck to change it now, it will just screw me up. I will be putting in Death Cloud #4 into the maindeck (as noted above), as I've been debating that myself. Beyond that, I think I have to leave it alone. I'll touch base after the event and let you know how I did.

Sughayyer
07-02-2013, 06:01 PM
Good luck! We're looking forward to hear from you!

Mr. Safety
07-03-2013, 07:33 AM
So I cleaned house going 3-0 (6-1 for games.) Tournament was 24 people, 3 rounds, no cut to top 8. Prizes were store credit, 8 packs of recent standard sets (RtR, GCR, or DGM) or I could opt for 2 packs of Modern Masters. I ended up with 1 MM pack and 4 packs of RtR (store credit, meh, I was hoping to crack a shockland with the RtR packs)

Qualifying these results would be senseless though.

Round 1 - Black/White Homebrew (I saw Phyrexian Obliterator and Vampire Nighthawk, that was it...)

He never get off the ground. Game 1 he got two swamps, but only after I had assembled 5 lands and got Death Cloud for 2. The rest was Treetop beats and Deathrite drains (Deathrite post-Cloud, of course.) Game 2 he only saw one land the whole game (mana-screwed big time) which I gladly Smallpox-ed away and then got Garruk beasts and Tarmogoyfs. The whole round lasted maybe 15 minutes total.

Round 2 - 5-Color uber-Budget artifact creatures (the deck look like it was leftovers from a MM draft)

I was playing against a kid that was maybe 8-9 years old. He was actually a good player, but his deck was horrible. I didn't play cutthroat, but I swept him easily. His best card was a Court Homunculus enabled by an Iron Myr. This was like Michael Jordan playing in a midget basketball game.

Round 3 - Mono-black discard/Infect (Howltooth Hollow, Runechanter's Pike, Phyrexian Vatmother, Phyrexian Crusader)

Game 1 I just went all aggro. It was what I had in hand, and it worked well. I had lethal on the board with 2 Garruk beasts, Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker on turn 5.

Game 2 was really long. Even though I got his Crusader with liliana, and then extracted it, he ended up top-decking a Runechanter's Pike, equipping Inkmoth Nexus and swinging for 12 poison in one shot. He boarded in a full set of Nihil Spellbomb, but it hardly slowed me down at all. I just kept drawing non-Treetop lands and no threats. It was ok though, I ultimated Liliana twice in this game (yes, it was that long.) I finally landed Garruk and then Pike won.

Game 3 he kept a one-lander, I was on the play, and I had Smallpox. Another fast game with Treetop beats and Liliana/Garruk teaming up for crushing board advantage.

So like I said, the results are practically useless for any sort of guage of strength for Death Cloud. I was glad I had 4 copies of it in the deck, that was a great piece of advice. I am looking to do a couple of things to fix the deck a bit:

1) Drop Inquisition of Kozilek, it was just 'meh' all night long. This is a place where I could start getting 4-ofs into the deck firstly, and then maybe start thinking about getting kitchen Finks maindeck.

2) Strongly considering going -1 Swamp, +1 Godless Shrine so I can play Oblivion Ring in the sideboard against Wurmcoil Engine. The Infect player had Blue Tron built, so we played that after the tournament for testing. I simply can't beat Wurmcoil engine. Other options exist (like Cranial Extraction, Eradicate) but splashing white allows for me to use the Crime half of Crime//Punishment. I think Path to Exile is a little counterproductive to the Death Cloud/Smallpox plan, but against Tron it might be worth playing because it is cheap and I'll have mana to pay for Condescend/other permission.

I still welcome any/all thoughts. Unfortunately, I'm still in development. This tournament told me nothing about this meta-game, and if the rest of the crew has decks of similar quality I'm not sure I want to keep playing there. My deck tops $1000 and most other folks were playing budget decks. *shrug* It's just not that rewarding.

Erdvermampfa
07-03-2013, 10:36 AM
I'm convinced that the amount of discard is dependent on the prevalence of counters and combo in the metagame. As we are all used to the Legacy format a bit more than to Modern I guess we have to rethink what the best discard configuration in G/B decks is. The metagame and specifically the presence of counters significantally differs from legacy where almost everyone seems to run a whole bunch of counters and disruption. In modern, one only has to fear Cryptic Command as a hard counter and combo decks are also less frequent, so I'm inclined to agree on your suggestion to decrease the number of 1mana discard to 4. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that it feels akward to lack an one-drop in your starting hand, which is the reason why I generally strive to have at least 8 of them as well, but then again, Modern is way slower than Legacy and I consider this mindset as a residuum of my long experience with legacy.

Mr. Safety
07-03-2013, 12:14 PM
My thoughts on discard:

1) I might be convinced to play 4 Thoughtseize, maybe...but it's so terrible in the late game. Early game it doesn't always do much either. It's the resource denial that is good, which makes me feel that the Best option would be to go with 4 of Liliana. I may trade/buy my 4th for this deck. As you say, the games go longer and this deck is ACTIVELY trying to drag the game out. Thoughtseize is really only there as a preemptive answer to combo decks, and gets sideboarded out frequently. With 2x Duress in the sideboard, I think the targeted discard is covered.

2) Death Cloud, Smallpox, and Liliana are just so much better at disrupting opponents. They all bring more value than just a discard. All of them are huge tempo stalls, the weakest being Smallpox. While strong against agressive decks, Smallpox is weak against most everything else. I still think it's good enough to play, and good enough for a full set.

Other than that, the real open question for me is how to tweak my creature base to get full value. I am working on Kitchen Finks x4 (have 3 now) and beyond that, I'm not sure.

Sughayyer
07-03-2013, 07:07 PM
My thoughts on discard:

1) I might be convinced to play 4 Thoughtseize, maybe...but it's so terrible in the late game. Early game it doesn't always do much either. It's the resource denial that is good, which makes me feel that the Best option would be to go with 4 of Liliana. I may trade/buy my 4th for this deck. As you say, the games go longer and this deck is ACTIVELY trying to drag the game out. Thoughtseize is really only there as a preemptive answer to combo decks, and gets sideboarded out frequently. With 2x Duress in the sideboard, I think the targeted discard is covered.

2) Death Cloud, Smallpox, and Liliana are just so much better at disrupting opponents. They all bring more value than just a discard. All of them are huge tempo stalls, the weakest being Smallpox. While strong against agressive decks, Smallpox is weak against most everything else. I still think it's good enough to play, and good enough for a full set.

Other than that, the real open question for me is how to tweak my creature base to get full value. I am working on Kitchen Finks x4 (have 3 now) and beyond that, I'm not sure.

I once experimented with a BG(w) loam deck in modern that relied in bloodghasts, lingering souls and worm harvest. The deck didn't pack death cloud, was awfully slow and ultimately I decided to play monoblack infect.
However my strong The Rock roots force me to get here every now and then and I was wondering if we could try something that ramped/poxed/d. clouded and then used souls and harvest tokens to finish the match.

I'll try working on it in my spare time.

FTW
07-04-2013, 01:56 AM
What about something like this...


//11 Pox
4 Smallpox
3 Death Cloud
4 Liliana of the Veil

//7 discard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Raven's Crime

//12 profit
4 Life from the Loam
4 Bloodghast
4 Viridian Emissary

//4 tokens
1 Worm Harvest
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

//26 lands
2 Barren Moor
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Woodland Cemetery
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Forest
5 Swamp


Too dependent on Loam and Pox effects? Are DRS and Abrupt Decay really necessary in all BG decks?

Your advantage is not running any creatures that might have to be negatively sacrificed to Poxing, thus no anti-synergy.
You basically go T1 discard spell, T2 profit (Emissary ramp or Smallpox or Loam), T3-4 planeswalker shenanigans.

Emissary chump blocks and attacks better than STE and can be your sacrifice fodder while still ramping you! Garruk+Emissary ramp, Liliana+Crime shred their hands and Death Cloud+Smallpox takes out their board and hand. Garruk+Harvest+Bloodghast give you both sacrifice fodder and a win condition.

Sughayyer
07-04-2013, 09:19 AM
Forget it.
I lost a sh*tton of matches to gy-hate... not one-time only effects like bomb, but permanent removal like leyline and RiP. The list was pretty similar, only with sakura-tribe elder instead of viridian emissary

Mr. Safety
07-04-2013, 08:55 PM
I fought through what seemed like endless Nihil Spellbombs in one matchup. It shrunk my goyfs (but they never lived anyways) and it made me wait a bit for Tombstalker...that's it. Deathrite Shaman is fantastic as a post-Cloud threat, and gets you to bigger mana faster but gets lost in the blitz. Regardless, Deathrite is still the right card to be playing in this deck, I am firmly convinced of it. Tarmogoyf...not so sure. I may swap them for Kitchen Finks honestly.

Lingering Souls just make you WEAKER to graveyard hate. I'm of this mindset: 4x Garruk Wildspeaker, 4x Death Cloud. Those two cards win games together, and both are great at grinding on their own. You could call it 'Garruk-Cloud', that's how important that interaction is. Garruk was my best threat bar none, and Death Cloud was always a welcome sight in my hand.

Timber
07-22-2013, 11:26 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm just getting into Modern and I really like this deck idea. Has anyone tried Nihilith (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/72.html) ? I saw a deck tech with Conley Woods from a few years ago where he used it as his post-Cloud beater.

Also, has anyone played their Cloud deck since the 4th of July and has results to share?

Phoenix Ignition
07-23-2013, 05:09 AM
I'm just getting into Modern and I really like this deck idea. Has anyone tried Nihilith (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/72.html) ? I saw a deck tech with Conley Woods from a few years ago where he used it as his post-Cloud beater.

I've tried multiple versions of this deck and my absolute best advice is this: don't play cards that are "good when you play death cloud," play cards that are all-around decent no matter when you draw them, and can have synergy with death cloud. I tested Nihilith a while ago and was not impressed. He's only good if you get him suspended before laying down a big Death Cloud. Well, what if they counter death cloud? Then he's just a big, slow suspend dude.

Garruk is decent because he powers up Death Cloud and can do well on his own before you draw it. You want to be running all cards with value, so stuff like Sakura Tribe Elder or Viridian Emissary, Liliana of the Veil, and shy away from 1-hit wonders that need the stars to align to go well.

Remember the best decks in the format kill or put you out of the game on turn 4 (splinter twin, Birthing Pod, Tron, Burn).

Timber
07-23-2013, 03:05 PM
I've tried multiple versions of this deck and my absolute best advice is this: don't play cards that are "good when you play death cloud," play cards that are all-around decent no matter when you draw them, and can have synergy with death cloud.

I did get that from reading the whole thread and it makes sense to me. I don't have any Kitchen Finks, Fetches or Tombstalkers, so based on the cards I have access to right now, I’ll have to go a bit more aggressive. This is what I plan to try next week:

LAND
4x Overgrown Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Tomb)
4x Woodland Cemetery (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Woodland%20Cemetery)
3x Treetop Village (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Treetop%20Village)
1x City of Brass (http://deckbox.org/mtg/City%20of%20Brass)
8x Swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Swamp)
5x Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest)

RAMP
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sakura-Tribe%20Elder)
3x Wood Elves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wood%20Elves)
3x Garruk Wildspeaker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Garruk%20Wildspeaker)

DISRUPTION
4x Duress (http://deckbox.org/mtg/duress)
4x Death Cloud (http://deckbox.org/mtg/death%20cloud)
4x Smallpox (http://deckbox.org/mtg/smallpox)
1x Mutilate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/mutilate)
1x Black Sun’s Zenith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Black%20Sun's%20Zenith)
2x Putrefy (http://deckbox.org/mtg/putrefy)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek)

CREATURES
4x Geralf’s Messenger (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Geralf’s%20Messenger)
2x Extractor Demon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Extractor%20Demon)
1x Swagtusk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thragtusk)

Since I haven't played Modern in my area yet, I plan to include sideboard cards based on what I've read in this (and other) threads. Any suggestions based on what I have access to right now:

1x Crime / Punishment
4x Smother
2x Appetite for Brains
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Gaze of Granite
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ground Seal
2x Putrefy
4x Dryad Militant
1x Bramblecrush
4x Acidic Slime
1x Mental Misstep

Phoenix Ignition
07-25-2013, 02:30 PM
Sideboards are tricky to talk about when you don't even know if the deck itself is solid. Some things you should be looking out for are the format normal decks.

Graveyard hate for the random Living End deck and the rogue graveyard deck abuseres. Something is definitely necessary to stop Splinter Twin/Birthing Pod combos, which Torpor Orb or similar effects can deal with, but be careful to run extra versions since all of those decks have at least 1 way of dealing with permanent hate. Tron is tougher to shut down with Black/Green, but hand hate, stuff like Pithing Needle, and even having some Ghost Quarters might be worth it in the side.

Mental Misstep is banned, so don't use that.

Also, you can easily tag card names by using the
[cards ]CardnameHere
Cardname here
cardname here
[/cards ] without spaces between the brackets.

Timber
07-25-2013, 06:56 PM
Yeah, bad call on Mental Misstep. I found out it was banned right after I posted.

That is exactly the feedback I was looking for. I figured I'd put some cards in for: Tron, Pod, Living End, Storm and Affinity, but obviously not having played against them it might be more helpful to forget the SB and just run the deck so that I get more used to it while figuring out my area's meta. I picked up a Tombstalker yesterday and I'm still trying to get a 4th Garruk and some Kitchen Finks prior to Wednesday.

Thanks for the tip on card tags. I gave up on the [http = [/url ] way because it's exhausting.

Timber
08-05-2013, 07:03 PM
So I ran my budget Death Cloud / Pox deck at a small FNM Modern tournament at my LGS. I went 3-1 (6-3 in games), but faced amateur competition about equal to myself. I was really happy with all of my opening hands except 1, I only had mana problems in one game (flooded) and I had a ton of fun playing the deck. Here was my deck list:

LAND
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Treetop Village
4 Forest
1 City of Brass
8 Swamp

RAMP
4 Skakura-Tribe Elder
3 Wood Elves
4 Garruk Wildspeaker

DISRUPTION
4 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Death Cloud
4 Smallpox
2 Putrefy
1 Mutilate
1 Black Sun’s Zenith

CREATURES
4 Geralf’s Messenger
2 Extractor Demon
1 Tombstalker

SIDEBOARD
2 Appetite for Brains
2 putrefy
1 Crime / Punishment
2 Smother
2 Ghost Quarter
2 pithing needle
2 Golgari charm
2 smother

The first match was against Naya blitz with lots of Eventide and Shards gold cards like Naya Hushblade and Woolly Thoctar. In game one, he got me down to 8 life before I got off a Cloud for 4 with a Geralf’s Messenger on the board, wiping out all of his creatures and lands. The next turn I top-decked and played a Tombstalker and he scooped. Game 2 I sided in 2x Ghost Quarter, but had a major misplay where I played a Ghost Quarter instead of a third black mana source, keeping me from getting off a second Death Cloud, allowing him to play a second Jund Hackblade and costing me the game. I had game three in control, but flooded after Death Cloud and he finished me off with a Jund Hackblade and a bolt to the dome. Overall I was happy with how the deck played.

The second match was against a RWU combo deck, but he was mana screwed in game one and flooded in game two so I never saw him cast anything more than mana ramp artifacts, Azorius Charm and telling time. Afterwards I played his Affinity deck and he stomped me in two games. It really showed me the weaknesses of my budget deck. I didn't side in my crime // punishment, but I only had one so I doubt it would have helped much.

The third match was against a RB goblin deck. She got the jump on me in game one with a festering goblin with madcap skills and an Auntie. I didn’t have an issue with the BBB to cast my Messengers all night, but this match really showed the weakness of them entering the battlefield tapped and unable to block. In the next two games the deck played perfectly and she never kept any threat on the table very long.

The fourth match was against an enduring renewal combo deck with blasting station and 0 CC artifact creatures. I beat him in game one by hitting his early Station with putrefy and ripping all of his other combo pieces from his hand. He got his combo off and won game 2. I sided in Pithing Needle and had it in my opening hand game 3 naming Blasting Station. He still managed to hold me off to the 5 minute warning because I never drew a Death Cloud. I eventually overran him with Beast Tokens, Treetop beats and a Messenger.

Lessons:

1. Kitchen Finks over Geralf’s Messenger, not so much for the life gain, but more because the Finks don’t come into play tapped.

2. I think I had the correct amount of discard. Duress only missed once and Inquisition only missed once, but they did exactly what they’re supposed to by getting rid of combo and evasion pieces. I didn’t see a time when thoughtseize would be have been more effective and would probably not provide the best return on investment.

I freakin' love this deck. It's a ton of fun to play.

Tiago_B.
08-06-2013, 08:59 AM
A couple of questions:

LftL and respective toolbox (lands like ghost quarter, worm harvest, raven's crime, etc), is it worth it or will it make me very vulnerable vs graveyard hate? I wonder the same about Bloodghast.

Tombstalkers, would 3 be the right number? I think 4 its too much.

Also, i dont like smallpox here. Seems kinda win-more when ur ahead, and even then just after after you cast death cloud, than something to make you win the game when ur losing. Any thoughts on this?

What kind of hate do you advise versus Melira Pod decks? Kids around here play it a lot aparently.

TableTopMagic
08-06-2013, 10:41 AM
So I have been playing Death Cloud for about two years now. One thing I have done that many players in this thread haven't is not play Smallpox. I do not play it in the Main, I do from time to time in the board, but it is a one for one swap. Death Cloud and Smallpox have a kinda anti synergy. Death Cloud is a Tempo-Ramp style deck. Smallpox might be great right when it gets played, but over all it slows you down.
Here is some thoughts I posted a on a forum about a few cards I have seen played in builds that I disagree with.

Smallpox- It plays in my sideboard sometimes depending on the meta. It looks like a good fit for Death Cloud on the outside, but generally is isn't. You really need your lands to drop a Death Cloud for the lock. It is ok, but I have since switched to Fulminator Mage. Is is not a good choice for main board. You can try it as much as you want, but it will bite you in the butt except in certain match ups. Most of the time it just hurts you a lot. Remember most builds of Death Cloud are ramp decks. Losing your own lands before a game lock isn't ideal.

Bloodghast- Same as before, he looks good, but isn't a good fit. The fact that you can not use him to block is the biggest downfall. He comes back with the Landfall, but that doesn't get you very far when you need to set up into a Death Cloud lock or a field presence. Better with a Smallpox Control deck than Death Cloud.

Dark Confidant- This is a really good card for certain builds, but mostly in the side for when your facing combo after a lot of sideboarding. He is great in Jund, but this isn't Jund. Most Death Cloud build are a ramp style deck. We main board too many high casting cost spells. Jund has a average mana cost of around .95 with a peak of 4 Cmc sometimes 5 Cmc. The last two Death Cloud decks to place in any large event or MTGO event had a averaged about 1.28 Cmc. (One of those decks being my own deck that that I posted here:D) That about a .37 difference in the mana curve is a lot when you look into the fact that we cast Death Clouds for x=5 or more. Losing 5 or more life to your own Death Cloud, 3+ too Lands(Fetch and Shock), 2 for Thoughtseize, and 0-5+ for your added Bob puts you very close to to Death via Lightning Bolts.

These are just my thoughts and they don't necessarily reflect the view of other members...especially Chess most of the time."

Liliana isn't a one hit wonder. She can be, but with the right build and strategy she wins games. Lilly can be insane and she usually makes the lock after Post Death Cloud if Garruk didn't make if for some reason. (ie, Lightning Bolt ect...)
Here is a Quote from me from another forum about Liliana of the Veil.

"The very first thing all of my Death Cloud builds do is Stabilize. Liliana of the Veil is a key card to both pre-stabilizing and post-stabilizing. Liliana can help with the post stabilized game with her -2 effect. Where Liliana is absolutely insane and why I call her "My Main Bitch Lilly", is when you do stabilize and you start dropping her +1 effect. It destroys opponents. It turns every card in your hand into a blind Thoughtseize for free. If I have stabilized the board for the most part I don't need that land I top decks or the Tribe Elder. I need to Lock it down for the win. This is where she is amazing. She wins games.

If you deck isn't for the most part stabilizing prior to dropping Liliana, or very close to it, than you should reevaluate your build or playing style. Liliana is a staple."

Death Cloud is a Attrition deck. Meaning you have to out resource your opponent. Paying :b: for a Duress that takes down Cryptic Command. Playing a Planeswalker that will cause immediate shifts in board state. A threat that has to be dealt with. Cards that will force them to over extend. Sakura-Tribe Elder, provides a body that can attack and block, but also helps our Ramp. In my newer build, it also provides a extra body to Scavenging Ooze. (We can get to that part later) Kitchen Finks has two body's for the price of one. His 3/2 and 2/1 body can trade with a lot of the meta, while it still nets you 4 life. Damnation, Death Cloud, and so on and so on. This is what you need to be putting into mind when working your builds.

Here is a sample list I built and played a few months back.
24 LANDS
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Treetop Village
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Twilight Mire

CREATURES
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Death Cloud
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
1 Dismember

11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Fertile Ground
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Liliana of the Veil

SIDEBOARD
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I posted this deck online on the 18th of March with a short review of my weekend tournament. On the 25th on March someone net decked me "card for card," and did a MTGO Daily and went 4-0.

Since then I have changed things up a bit. I tested Deathrite Shaman for a little while after he was printed and he really didn't fit the deck I was playing at the time. He was kinda awkward getting him into the build since I was playing 4 Duress, and 4 Inquisition of Kozilek. Turn two I wanted to Fertile Ground or Tribe Elder, then Lilly and another Duress. lol My own fault for not rethinking my built. It's been several months, but I am going to go back to DRS.

Creature (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Fulminator Mage
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Scavenging Ooze

Instant (3)
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

Planeswalker (7)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

Sorcery (9)
2 Damnation
3 Death Cloud
4 Thoughtseize

Land (24)
2 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
3 Marsh Flats
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Fulminator Mage
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 2 Primal Command
SB: 2 Gaze of Granite
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

(Yes the Decks are listed in two different formats, but it is call copy and paste. lol)
With the addition of DRS I moved my mana curve a little closer to :3:, and I am trying to take advantage of that. Adding the three main board Fulminator Mage to help with tempo, man lands, and Tron. Also both cards can give a body to Scavenging Ooze. Turn two Lilly can be very detrimental to most opponents.

Vraska the Unseen was another choice I have made that I haven't seen much of here. She started as a test and became very fruitful as a one of. She give Aggro a hard time, and her downsized Maelstrom Pulse on a stick is great for when something absolutely positively has to die...*Cough* Karn*Cough Cough* Elspeth *Cough* Cough* Her final has actually won me a few games. Once she hits the field the clock starts. They have to deal with her then and there. The issue is that for the last 4 or 5 turn I have been playing quite a bit of Attrition. Meaning that there resources are very thin in most cases. Forcing them to try to crash creatures into her head first to slow her down. Ether way it is a win win. One day I will win with a Assassin tokens with +3/+3 and trample... One day...

Other than that the deck looks very straight forward from what you would expect. The board is something I have been working on for awhile now. A little extra spot removal, Maelstrom Pulse for token decks, and Duress for Control. What I think are my two most interesting choices are the two Primal Commands and the Eternal Witness. Those are there for for a couple of different reasons. One is for Burn. Primal for gain 7 life then search for Witness so I can gain another 7 life. Another is for graveyard hate for decks like Storm, Dredgevine, UW Tron/Gifts, and Living End. Gaze is for Affinity, WW and Zoo. I might find room for another 1 Golgari Charm to help with Twin and the Boggle decks that have been showing up.

The new build has very little playtesting, but I have faith it will require a few tweaks here and there. I am always open to other advice, tips, and "creative" criticism.


Ps, I don't play Goyf as a choice not because I don't have them. I like to let the deck do what it does, rather than try to punch threw. He dies to a lighting bolt before turn 4 and by then I want to Death Cloud next turn anyways.

Phoenix Ignition
08-06-2013, 02:54 PM
I like the second decklist you posted. You might want to run Crime/Punishment over Gaze since it comes down earlier and is better against the matchups you mentioned. The sideboard seems a little disoriented in general, but as long as you have a specific plan of what to take out and put in against specific decks (like where you want the 1 Maelstrom Pulse), then it's probably fine. I've been really impressed with Golgari Charm lately, there are a lot of token decks and mono white life gain decks that it crushes.

You might consider Thragtusk over Eternal Witness as well. It's better against burn decks (cheaper overall, bigger bodies), and it's worth sideboarding in against fair decks where you have really grindy games. If you were playing red splash I'd say Huntmaster because he's just ridiculously good, but that's a splash most people don't consider.

Timber
08-07-2013, 07:32 AM
LftL and respective toolbox (lands like ghost quarter, worm harvest, raven's crime, etc), is it worth it or will it make me very vulnerable vs graveyard hate? I wonder the same about Bloodghast.

Check out the rest of the thread. I think you'll find that most people here have had bad with experiences with Loam engines. 1) because GY hate got stupid with Deathrite Shaman and Rest In Peace and 2) because it waters the deck down. Your primary objective is to blow up the board with Death Cloud, keep your foot on the gas with Garruk Wildspeaker and Liliana of the Veil and then top deck better than your opponent to a win. The Loam engine is too cute and keeps you from drawing your focus cards.

TableTopMagic
08-09-2013, 01:24 PM
I like the second decklist you posted. You might want to run Crime/Punishment over Gaze since it comes down earlier and is better against the matchups you mentioned. The sideboard seems a little disoriented in general, but as long as you have a specific plan of what to take out and put in against specific decks (like where you want the 1 Maelstrom Pulse), then it's probably fine. I've been really impressed with Golgari Charm lately, there are a lot of token decks and mono white life gain decks that it crushes.

You might consider Thragtusk over Eternal Witness as well. It's better against burn decks (cheaper overall, bigger bodies), and it's worth sideboarding in against fair decks where you have really grindy games. If you were playing red splash I'd say Huntmaster because he's just ridiculously good, but that's a splash most people don't consider.

Trust me, I have a plan for every card. Each card comes in on several different match ups to help sure up the numbers against multiple decks. Not just one deck that is a bad match up.
The issue with Crime//Punishment is that you can only target a single Cmc. So If you cast if for x=0 you will get Memnite and Ornithopter. Maybe even a Opal, but you won't get Signal Pest, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Etched Champion, and so on. Afinitys mana curve goes from 0-4. The only 4 drops being Tezzeret and Frogmite. Crime is great against Tokens, and is ok against Affinity, but Gaze of Granite is the better card. Turn 4 if I'm on the play I can normally drop it for at least x=2. This often leaves them top decking. Damnation is also a star here. It doesn't hit the other artifacts, but it does hit hard to home. Another card to note against affinity is a well timed Dismember. Waiting for the right moment to destroy there Ink or Blinkmoth Nexus. Sometimes there is very little anyone can do about Affinitys "Nut Draws", but this helps the numbers line up.

As for Thragtusk... :confused: It is good in standard, but this isn't standard. I think you are underestimating the power of Witness and Primal Command. (I'm assuming your also talking about primal command when you mentioned Eternal Witness) Primal Command is a Swiss Army Knife of this build. Primal Command has "four" effects. You Choose two of those effects. It isn't just a anti burn spell is comes in on several match ups. With one Primal Command and one Eternal Witness I can gain 14 life, or more if I want to drag it out. Maybe you missed it, if you didn't let me elaborate of others who may have missed it.
(Step one.) Ramp into your 5th land or mana source. Many cases turn four or three. (That is still often outside burns kill window, sometimes very close too it.) (Step two.) Cast Primal Command, choosing Gain yourself 7 Life and Search for a Creature as the other. Search out Eternal Witness.
(Step Three.) Next turn play the Witness to gain back the Primal Command.
(Step Four) Cast Primal Command.
This can put you so far outside of burns window that other creatures like Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze can take over and get you exactly where you want to be. Eternal Witness can also help you pull back cards like hand hate, Liliana, or Creatures that gain life. Every time you strip a card from a Burn players hand it buys you time. Duress is another card that would come in against burn.
Primal is also Graveyard hate against Dredgevine, Living End, Gifts, and any graveyard based deck. His other useful effects can put a Non-Creature Permanent on top of its owners Library. I point these out together because mixed in certain match ups, if necessity I can chose a Planeswalkers like Karn or a land, and put it on top if there library and shuffle it in with there Graveyard. It really helps with Temp if you turn two or three a Fulminator Mage then turn four or five a Primal for a land.
"I believe in the power of Primal."

I have tested Jund, BUG and Junk Death Cloud.
Huntmaster of the Fells is not that good in the build. if gives you nothing to your final goal of a lock for the win. The biggest gain from a Jund build would be Lightning Bolt. It is the single best removal spell in any format. Most likely the best Red spell ever printed. The next gain from Jund would be cards like Sowing Salts, Slaughter Games, and Jund Charm. I love the interactions with Jund Charm and Kitchen Finks. :P

Bug gives you access to cards like Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, and Venser, Shaper Savant. All of which go hand in had with Death Clouds Attrition Style play. It could also give you a little counter magic if needed, but I am not one for counter magic really.

Junk can give you a lot of reach. Voice of Resurgence can be insane! Mix that with 4 copy's of Lingering Souls. Maybe add a Elspeth, Knight-Errant to the mix. That is some crazy power. Junk also gives you a lot of flexibility in your sideboard. Cards like Stony Silence, Aven Mindcensor, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence.

Mr. Safety
08-09-2013, 03:11 PM
Check out the rest of the thread. I think you'll find that most people here have had bad with experiences with Loam engines. 1) because GY hate got stupid with Deathrite Shaman and Rest In Peace and 2) because it waters the deck down. Your primary objective is to blow up the board with Death Cloud, keep your foot on the gas with Garruk Wildspeaker and Liliana of the Veil and then top deck better than your opponent to a win. The Loam engine is too cute and keeps you from drawing your focus cards.

Nailed it. The only thing I would add is how important Treetop Village is as a post-Cloud threat. I've won a lot of games by going Death Cloud then Treetop to the end.

Phoenix Ignition
08-09-2013, 05:57 PM
As for Thragtusk... :confused: It is good in standard, but this isn't standard. I think you are underestimating the power of Witness and Primal Command. (I'm assuming your also talking about primal command when you mentioned Eternal Witness) Primal Command is a Swiss Army Knife of this build. Primal Command has "four" effects. You Choose two of those effects. It isn't just a anti burn spell is comes in on several match ups. With one Primal Command and one Eternal Witness I can gain 14 life, or more if I want to drag it out. Maybe you missed it, if you didn't let me elaborate of others who may have missed it.
(Step one.) Ramp into your 5th land or mana source. Many cases turn four or three. (That is still often outside burns kill window, sometimes very close too it.) (Step two.) Cast Primal Command, choosing Gain yourself 7 Life and Search for a Creature as the other. Search out Eternal Witness.
(Step Three.) Next turn play the Witness to gain back the Primal Command.
(Step Four) Cast Primal Command.
This can put you so far outside of burns window that other creatures like Kitchen Finks and Scavenging Ooze can take over and get you exactly where you want to be. Eternal Witness can also help you pull back cards like hand hate, Liliana, or Creatures that gain life. Every time you strip a card from a Burn players hand it buys you time. Duress is another card that would come in against burn.
Primal is also Graveyard hate against Dredgevine, Living End, Gifts, and any graveyard based deck. His other useful effects can put a Non-Creature Permanent on top of its owners Library. I point these out together because mixed in certain match ups, if necessity I can chose a Planeswalkers like Karn or a land, and put it on top if there library and shuffle it in with there Graveyard. It really helps with Temp if you turn two or three a Fulminator Mage then turn four or five a Primal for a land.
"I believe in the power of Primal."


Nah, I meant what I said about changing EW for Thragtusk. If your goal is to board it in against Burn decks as a target for Primal Command then you might as well do +7 life + find Thragtusk rather than +7 life find EW, use EW next turn, wait a turn to cast Primal, next turn cast Primal. You can do for 10 mana what you are doing for 13. Plus Thragtusk is a much more formidable threat against them and all other decks that try to use removal.

TableTopMagic
08-10-2013, 12:18 AM
Nah, I meant what I said about changing EW for Thragtusk. If your goal is to board it in against Burn decks as a target for Primal Command then you might as well do +7 life + find Thragtusk rather than +7 life find EW, use EW next turn, wait a turn to cast Primal, next turn cast Primal. You can do for 10 mana what you are doing for 13. Plus Thragtusk is a much more formidable threat against them and all other decks that try to use removal.

Primal Command= +2 Four Effects, you chose two of them.
Eternal Witness= +2 You get a card back and a body on the field.
Thragtusk=3 (To be fair) A body, life and a token if/when it dies.

PC+EW+PC+Tutored Creature = 7
PC+Thragtusk=5
Even if you didn't use Primal Commands Tutor effect I still get virtual card advantage of 6 minimum.
True, your way is 3 cmc cheaper, but I gain 2 more life and still can pull another threat like Kitchen Finks or Scavenging Ozze.

Timber
08-10-2013, 08:16 AM
I see a lot of lists on here use Golgari Rot Farm. I understand that it's ramp, but it feels like that would slow you down one turn. What are everyones' experiences with it? I have 2, but I haven't added them yet.

On another note, since I just got one in an M14 sealed event, I'm messing around with Haunted Plate Mail while I work on acquiring Kitchen Finks. I like that it can make one of my fetch creatures a beater if needed, if I don't have any creatures then it's a better blocker than Treetop Village and it can protect Garruk if I need to use his +1 and sac an STE to ramp into Death Cloud.

TableTopMagic
08-10-2013, 11:20 AM
I see a lot of lists on here use Golgari Rot Farm. I understand that it's ramp, but it feels like that would slow you down one turn. What are everyones' experiences with it? I have 2, but I haven't added them yet.

On another note, since I just got one in an M14 sealed event, I'm messing around with Haunted Plate Mail while I work on acquiring Kitchen Finks. I like that it can make one of my fetch creatures a beater if needed, if I don't have any creatures then it's a better blocker than Treetop Village and it can protect Garruk if I need to use his +1 and sac an STE to ramp into Death Cloud.

Golgari Rot Far can set you back a little, but the trick is too tap for that mana prior to bouncing it back to your had. It is best used on a turn when you won't need that one mana from your land drop. The really great part about Rot Farm is the interactions with Garruk Windspeaker. (Tap for 2, Garruk +1, Tap for 2 Again) Death Cloud for X leaving Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm and Garruk in play is normally a game lock. Just pick the right times for it to drop into play. I wouldn't over do them tho. Two is the Max I would advise anyone to play.

Phoenix Ignition
08-10-2013, 04:49 PM
Primal Command= +2 Four Effects, you chose two of them.
Eternal Witness= +2 You get a card back and a body on the field.
Thragtusk=3 (To be fair) A body, life and a token if/when it dies.

PC+EW+PC+Tutored Creature = 7
PC+Thragtusk=5
Even if you didn't use Primal Commands Tutor effect I still get virtual card advantage of 6 minimum.
True, your way is 3 cmc cheaper, but I gain 2 more life and still can pull another threat like Kitchen Finks or Scavenging Ozze.

3 cmc doesn't sound as big as it really is. You're spending 3 turns instead of 2, and on the intermediate turn you only have a 2/1, which they can easily bolt or trample over and doesn't trade with many of the mono-red creatures. I think it's probably fine either way, but Thragtusk is much better against control decks than I think you make him out to be. It's also graveyard independent, which in a meta of Deathrite/Scavenging Ooze is a big bonus.


I see a lot of lists on here use Golgari Rot Farm. I understand that it's ramp, but it feels like that would slow you down one turn. What are everyones' experiences with it? I have 2, but I haven't added them yet.

On another note, since I just got one in an M14 sealed event, I'm messing around with Haunted Plate Mail while I work on acquiring Kitchen Finks. I like that it can make one of my fetch creatures a beater if needed, if I don't have any creatures then it's a better blocker than Treetop Village and it can protect Garruk if I need to use his +1 and sac an STE to ramp into Death Cloud.

I've had only bad experience with Rot Farm and the like. I see the draw of it in a deck like this, but every deck has some way to deal with Tron lands and you'll often get burned by those cards (Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge). The chance of losing 2 land drops for that small benefit has lost me games before, and I don't think it's worth it for Death Cloud anyway.

Haunted Plate Mail looks interesting, but I don't know if it's worth it. It is worth testing for a bit though, as it's not a bad beater, synergetic with Death Cloud, and pretty good for the 1/1s

Mr. Safety
08-10-2013, 07:13 PM
I tend to agree on Rot Farm. I started wit h 3, then down to 2, then down to 1. I still play 1 because it's fairly low risk as a singleton.

I also worked in an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Really solid tech there. Even with the new legend rules, I likely wouldn't play more than 2. The more Urborgs you play the more you can get greedy with lands like Tec-Edge or Ghost Quarter, which could be reasonable given a Tron heavy metagame.

TableTopMagic
08-12-2013, 03:24 AM
3 cmc doesn't sound as big as it really is. You're spending 3 turns instead of 2, and on the intermediate turn you only have a 2/1, which they can easily bolt or trample over and doesn't trade with many of the mono-red creatures. I think it's probably fine either way, but Thragtusk is much better against control decks than I think you make him out to be. It's also graveyard independent, which in a meta of Deathrite/Scavenging Ooze is a big bonus.



I think your forgetting that, if I didn't miss a land drop on the fallowing turn, I still have another 3 mana I could spend on that "intermediate turn".. Not to mention that I could already have board presence. I guess all my scenarios have to have me on the detrimental side of life. :rolleyes: Anyways if you don't like it don't run it.
As for now the only changes I am thinking of making is bringing Tectonic Edge back into the main. Even in the match up that I board out the Fulminator Mages, while I'm on the draw, I still want a little help against troublesome lands.

-1 Overgrown Tomb
-1 Swamp
-1 Twilight Mire

+3 Tectonic Edge

Timber
09-10-2013, 08:24 AM
Looking at Theros spoilers: Thoughtseize is being reprinted. Read the Bones provides scry with card draw. New Elsbeth, Hythonia the Cruel, and Pulokranos all wipe the board. Combined with current Rock-esque Standard cards Gaze of Granite, Deathrite Shaman and Voice of Resurgence, does anyone think Junk Rock could make a comeback in Standard?

Phoenix Ignition
09-10-2013, 01:18 PM
does anyone think Junk Rock could make a comeback in Standard?

No idea, did you mean Modern? Standard is far outside my realm of interests.

Timber
10-29-2013, 08:38 AM
Seeing all these devotion decks in Standard abusing Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, does anyone think it could be used in place of Golgari Rot Farm for bigger Death Clouds?

TableTopMagic
10-29-2013, 07:31 PM
Seeing all these devotion decks in Standard abusing Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, does anyone think it could be used in place of Golgari Rot Farm for bigger Death Clouds?
Generally Death Cloud is pretty light on permanents. With out a massive change the the main I doubt it.

Timber
10-29-2013, 10:25 PM
True, pretty much just Liliana and Garruk.

Have you run your latest list recently? I finally got some Lilianas and DRS for a good deal just before they rotated out of Standard, but no Modern action for me in months to try my latest list out.

TableTopMagic
10-30-2013, 02:36 AM
True, pretty much just Liliana and Garruk.

Have you run your latest list recently? I finally got some Lilianas and DRS for a good deal just before they rotated out of Standard, but no Modern action for me in months to try my latest list out.
My list works pretty well. Just a few changes here and there. Recently I have been playing a lot of combo deck. Mostly Living End, Goryo's Breach and a couple home brews that are really fun. Death Cloud can be really grindy sometimes and I just wanted to be a little faster. My Death Cloud build still holds tempo like no other. Just slow to the finish, where Reanimator can win turn one, or my creature storm (home brew) wins turn three.

Timber
11-19-2013, 12:44 PM
So I ran my latest list at FNM, but there were only 7 other people and most of their decks were garbage. I still went 4-0, 8-1 on games and won $25 store credit. Here's the list:

4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
3 Treetop Village
4 Forest
1 City of Brass
8 Swamp
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Wood Elves
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Death Cloud
4 Smallpox
1 Putrefy
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Mutilate
1 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Extractor Demon
1 Tombstalker

SIDEBOARD
2 Appetite for Brains
2 putrefy
1 Crime / Punishment
2 Smother
2 Ghost Quarter
2 pithing needle
2 Golgari charm
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Gaze of Granite

Tons of fun as always. My matches felt a lot like old school Junk: almost always having an answer for everything at the right time. Obviously I wasn't playing even tier 1.5 decks, but it was nice to play 4 completely different decks and have an answer for everything thrown at me.

I picked up a 4th Liliana and 3x Abrupt Decay afterwards so my list is adjusted for +1 Liliana, +3 Abrupt Decay -2 Extractor Demon, -1 Putrefy -1 Hero's Downfall. Sideboard adjustment is -2 Smother +1 Putrefy +1 Hero's Downfall.

Now that I have a Liliana playset I've started saving for fetches.

Timber
02-07-2014, 03:58 PM
So, any hope for this deck without Deathrite?

Add red for Huntmaster and Fulminator Mage in the main?

Mr. Safety
02-07-2014, 04:26 PM
This is easier to pilot without deahrite. In my early development I found only sakelder and finks to be worthwhile. Deathrite was a distraction. I found ramping to 6 as fast as possible to get a backbreaking cloud was the best way to win. Deathrite ate removal constanly and just got caught up in collateral damage.

Timber
06-25-2014, 01:53 PM
Thoughts on M15 Nissa?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/nissa-worldwaker/

Phoenix Ignition
06-25-2014, 09:08 PM
At 5 it doesn't seem as good as other 5 drops. Garruk, Primal Hunter seems better in that slot as his +1 doesn't endanger one of our lands to removal or our own deathcloud, and his -3 fishes for a bomb if necessary (which is usually pretty relevant in a deck that plays a lot of ramp). I think Nissa's first +1 is deceptive, as a lot of the time with Garruk I'd use the +1 as a chump blocker for Tarmogoyfs or something similar, but you can't stall by chump blocking your lands to death. Untapping 4 forests seems overkill for everything but Deathcloud, and if you're looking for that type of ability I'd probably go with 4cmc Garruk instead.

Timber
06-26-2014, 01:14 PM
I was thinking that you'd use her untap forests ability to ramp into Death Cloud and then use her other +1 to turn all top-decked lands into finishers. However, requiring that the lands be forests really restricts the power of that second +1 ability.

Phoenix Ignition
06-26-2014, 02:08 PM
I don't think having the forests is as hard (even a +3 mana to death cloud is going to be huge), I just don't see a good stalling or card finding ability on her, which is super important for this deck. 4cmc Garruk can stall a few turns with tokens or ramp, whereas I don't think this deck ever wants to chump block with lands.

Mr. Safety
06-26-2014, 02:46 PM
Garruk untapping treetop village for beats, golgari rot farm for ramping, or tecedge plus another land so you can use it for mana and disruption are all better than untappong forests. I could see her in green devotion because they use land enchantments to ramp mana so it can net much more power. Still, untapping nykthos with garruk is still probabaly better.

Mr. Safety
07-01-2014, 09:36 PM
Thoughts on the new m15 garruk? Hitting 7 mana isn't really that hard for this deck. It makes me want to play gb tron lol.

Also, has anyone tried Lotus Bloom? Games go long so if it isn't turn one or two for the suspend it could still be relevant.

Phoenix Ignition
07-01-2014, 11:03 PM
Thoughts on the new m15 garruk? Hitting 7 mana isn't really that hard for this deck. It makes me want to play gb tron lol.
7 Mana is hard though, especially since new garruk doesn't win the game immediately. The 5 mana garruk is almost better in that he can draw you cards. It's a straight to edh card that really can't be used in competitive formats.


Also, has anyone tried Lotus Bloom? Games go long so if it isn't turn one or two for the suspend it could still be relevant.
I think you're focusing way too much on deathcloud. If you don't get a deathcloud, or you're playing against a deck where you don't want to deathcloud (burn, living end), or can't expect to get it out in time to keep you alive (affinity), or persist creatures, you don't need an extra 1 time mana boost. Just normal ramping with sakura tribe-elder and having enough lands will get you to the meat of your spells, and deathcloud is a good finisher but really isn't the focus.

Mr. Safety
07-02-2014, 09:50 PM
I agree on the blooms. Someone suggested them to me a while back and I never tested it.

Has anyone been using Gaze of Granite? I have been using one in the main, but I question whether it's better than crime/punishment.

Mr. Safety
12-28-2014, 09:24 PM
Testing a blue splash because treasure cruise really is that good. Sultai Charm seems to be worth including as well. Darkblast also seems smart in the current metagame. Beyond cruise/charm, I don't see much else worth splashing in. Kiora is interesting but probably bad. I want Villainous Wealth to be Cloud #5 but I don't think it is reliable enough. Fun for sure, but that's about it.

I do think this particular deck can utilize cruise in a big way. If there ever was a way to fill the yard fast, death cloud is it.

Timber
04-16-2015, 02:18 PM
Just found out that Reid Duke played Death Cloud at GP Vancouver. Here it is on camera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBi2Y1a5bD0

Obviously, it's much easier to day 2 Death Cloud when you're Reid Duke.

Blastoderm
04-16-2015, 10:40 PM
Just found out that Reid Duke played Death Cloud at GP Vancouver. Here it is on camera:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBi2Y1a5bD0

Obviously, it's much easier to day 2 Death Cloud when you're Reid Duke.

It's hard with infect and burn being tier 1 right now :((((

Phoenix Ignition
06-06-2016, 01:34 AM
I've been playing this list for a while. Kalitas is amazing, especially with a Death Cloud. Slaughter Pact is one of the better cards in here, as it can get you to just enough creature kills that Death Cloud will wipe the board (sometimes on 6 mana they have 4 creatures and you can't afford to DC then, but with SP you can), or else you can drop a turn 3 Kalitas and pact something for a token. Explore is the best ramp that's also good late game, I'm never unhappy to see one. I've been playing other stuff recently though so figured I might as well drop this here. I really like the maindeck, the only thing that feels a little off still is Bitterblossom, but you have plenty of life gain with the Primal Commands, Kalitas, and Coursers. They're just awkward if you're playing against Goyf + abrupt decay and grow them +2/+2.

3 Death Cloud
3 Slaughter Pact
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bitterblossom
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Explore
3 Primal Command
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Eternal Witness
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder

3 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Blighted Fen
1 Twilight Mire

SB:
4 Fulminator mage
2 Memoricide
3 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 your choice

I've tried the usual garruk + other crap packages but they're only okay. You'll often end up with too many 4+ cmc cards in your hand when you die early and realize you really needed things that you could play early and interact with the opponent.

Mr. Safety
06-07-2016, 07:36 PM
I've always liked thragtusk on the upper end (1-2) and disfigure on the low end (up to 3 in sime eras.)

Kitchen finks always seems to overperform for me as well. Its hard to squeeze in alongside courser and the other 3 drops.

Phoenix Ignition
06-07-2016, 09:32 PM
I had a thragtusk in forever, but he was always disappointing. Dying to bolt and any chump block can't be the thing at the top of your curve in Modern, you just can't win against midrange/control decks that way. Gaining 5 life is pretty good, but against things you want life you can just get it with Primal Commands. By late game Tarmogoyfs are usually 5/6s anyway and by that point he's not even a formidable threat.

Kitchen finks isn't necessary with the other lifegain in here. If it is vying for 3cmc slots then it's just much, much worse than Courser.

Disfigure is only good in certain metagames. If you expect Jund, UWx control, or most versions of Grixis then it's bad maindeck. In the current metagame that's extremely broad, I don't like it.