[Deck] Enduring Ideal

[Mr. Froggy]

The lack of Solitary Confinement didn't really hurt my Ideal when I played it in PTQs, it would be fast enough to race most decks. The only deck I had trouble with was Faeries.

The list (from memory):

The core: 13
Enduring Ideal x4
Dovescape x2
Oblivion Ring x2
Night of Souls' Betrayal x1
Meishin, the Mind Cage x1
Form of the Dragon x3

Protection: 8
Duress x4
Delay x4

Accel (color fix): 12
Lotus Bloom x4
Pentad Prism x4
Seething Song x4

Search/Draw: 8
Peer Through Depths x4
Ponder x4

Random assortment of Lands (Steam Vents, Godless Shrine)

I remember the last PTQ I went to with this deck, it went off turn 3 almost every single game.

It is INCREDIBLY fast, at least in my testing. :P

Take a look and see what you think. :)

[Admiral_Arzar]

The lack of Solitary Confinement didn't really hurt my Ideal when I played it in PTQs, it would be fast enough to race most decks. The only deck I had trouble with was Faeries.

The list (from memory):

The core: 13
Enduring Ideal x4
Dovescape x2
Oblivion Ring x2
Night of Souls' Betrayal x1
Meishin, the Mind Cage x1
Form of the Dragon x3

Protection: 8
Duress x4
Delay x4

Accel (color fix): 12
Lotus Bloom x4
Pentad Prism x4
Seething Song x4

Search/Draw: 8
Peer Through Depths x4
Ponder x4

Random assortment of Lands (Steam Vents, Godless Shrine)

I remember the last PTQ I went to with this deck, it went off turn 3 almost every single game.

It is INCREDIBLY fast, at least in my testing. :P

Take a look and see what you think. :)

This looks freaking awesome. I think you could get away with running fewer copies of the enchantments though (and replace them with protection/card draw). You may also want a Leyline of Sanctity or maybe Privileged Position. Personally, I prefer Mana Leak or Remand over Delay.

[Mr. Froggy]

I tried them both when I was starting to build the deck, and while I like the ''potential'' hard counter in Leak, its not that good as Delay, since it ''is'' a hard counter when you use it. Remand I've been so-so on because its biding just one extra turn. I'll see what happens in the new Modern meta. :)

Also, I could remove some enchantments because the deck was built to win against Elves! when it was a deck. NoSB was a house against them. ;) O-Ring is for random junk and Meishin is for Zoo (somewhat replaces Confinement).

In my sb, I ran Boseiju, Seal of Fire (for Ronom Unicorns, Qasali Pridemage, etc), a Mask to win against Mind's Desire, and some other ones (Decree of Silence).

[KevinTrudeau]

Thanks so much for bringing this deck back up, it really takes me back. I've played two matches on MWS with it, and I feel that there should be a singleton maindeck Blood Moon, and Peer Through Depths should possibly be Preordain so that you have a higher chance of hitting Lotus on T1. Here's my incredibly rough proto-list:

4 Sacred Foundry
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Marsh Flats
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Adarkar Wastes


4 Pentad Prism
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Bloom

4 Preordain
4 Ponder

3 Mana Leak
3 Remand

4 Enduring Ideal
2 Form of the Dragon
2 Dovescape
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
1 Blood Moon

In the sideboard, I'm testing Leyline of Sanctity, Blood Moon, Meishin, Pyroclasms, Boseijus, and Ghostly Prisons.

Brainstorming random enchantments that could be possible inclusions: Paradox Haze, Volition Reins, Privileged Position, Reverence, Rule of Law, Exclusion Ritual, Shared Fate (seems great with Dovescape+Reverence, but is probably too clunky), Story Circle (or various CoPs), Suppression Field, Teferi's Moat, Threads of Disloyalty (more of a Pyroclasm-esque role than an Ideal target), Wheel of Sun and Moon, Zur's Wierding (potential lock with Form of the Dragon), Copy Enchantment, Leyline of the Void

I really, really wish Humility and Solitary Confinement were legal.

[Mr. Froggy]

I actually had a one-of Rule of Law in the sb, against TEPS. It rocked hard.

Btw, my mom actually bought Trudeau's Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About, I read the first chapter and gave up.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Froggy- you're the first one to recognize my screenname. Mr. Trudeau is certainly a legend among shady late-night infomercial hosts.

There are a few things that need to get hammered out before we really start tuning this deck. The questions are as follows:

-Should the manabase be comprised of duals+fetches, or Gemstone Mines/Cities of Brass/painlands?
-What is the correct ratio of mana accelerants/countermagic/cantrips/Ideal targets/lands?

I feel the manabase should be comprised of duals+fetches, because Gemstone Mine's disadvantage is too much. Concerning the ratio, ~20 lands seems alright, especially with eight one-mana cantrips. 6-8 pieces of countermagic feels right, and I think Delay might very well be better than Mana Leak. I feel that 12 accelerants is too many, I'm trying out 11 and might go lower.

[Mr. Froggy]

Hehe yeah, I remember watching his info-mercials on TV. He's all serious during the "interviews" its hilarious, he's all like his books are the answer to the meaning of life. xD

But back to the deck, I had tried City of Brass, and Co., but the lifeloss is too relevant. Fetches and Shocks is where its at. I ran 19 lands in my original build and found I had plenty.

With all the cantrips and things, its not hard to land a land on your turn.

Also, about Peer Through Depths, I'd say its one of the MVPs of the deck because it digs, and digs extremely well. But, I haven't sleeved this deck in 2 years, so maybe its time it got an update. :P

[KevinTrudeau]

I made a bit of progress with the deck yesterday. It's still far from ideal, but it's inching closer. The land/cantrip/acceleration/counterspell/enchantment ratio is now 18/12/12/4/10.

Colgate Toothpaste, the One with Tartar Control

4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats (changes to Scalding Tarn with Steam Vents)
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Sacred Foundry (though I'm heavily leaning towards Steam Vents now)
3 Adarkar Wastes

4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Seething Song

4 Remand

3 Form of the Dragon
2 Dovescape
2 Meishin, the Mind Cage
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon

4 Enduring Ideal

If Ghost Quarter becomes a popular card in the format, we might have to run a basic or two in the main, which would kind of suck and would probably force us to run different fetches.

Boseiju has been excellent out of the board. Seal of Fire might also be a necessary inclusion since Qasali Pridemage is pretty popular.

I excluded Peer Through Depths from this iteration because it only has 18 lands; it would be better in a 19-20 land build. I love the card and need to test it before I come to any conclusions.

[Mr. Froggy]

I really like that list :D

Btw, I called the deck Colgate Total because once at a PTQ, I was running Ideal, and I locked my opponent (BG Loam Cloud if I recall), he told his teammate, "Damn, he set up Colgate Total on me!"

From then on, I've always found it works. :)

EDIT: I used to run Sleight of Hand but changed them to Duresses to add some control. :)

[KevinTrudeau]

The last list I posted looks pretty good on paper (especially from a Legacy combo lens which is what I've become accustomed to), but I've often found that the twelve cantrips will just cantrip into each other in the early game. The fact that you can't fetch like you can in Legacy makes things a lot more difficult; I'd often take around an average of six damage against aggro from lands, which is just too much. It's still probably the best thing I've come up with, but I'm gonna try out a slower list that runs more disruption and Peer Through Depths, or at least a different manabase, and compare (something akin to this (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/enduring-ideal-modern-combo/)).

Edit: 6 Island, 4 Adarkar Wastes, 4 Shivan Reef, 4 Reflecting Pool might could be a pretty good configuration for the twelve cantrip list. Reflecting Pool might be too sketchy though because of the awkward opening hands it could cause. The Islands might not play well with Prism either; I suppose X number of those Islands could be rainbow lands of some sort. 8 shocks, 8 pains, 2 other land could be swell as well, but I'm kind of delirious right now, so I can't tell.

[Basaka]

I'm wondering how good rainbow lands such as gemstone mine and forbidden orchard is? I mean, it doesn't look like we'll need to tap the mine more than 3 times, and random 1/1s get locked by FotD or NoSB... unless they're zoo, and they're happy to finish us off with our 1/1's. I remember getting locked out by this deck in standard, so I'm quite interested in playing it.

[KevinTrudeau]

The 4 Adarkar Wastes, 4 Shivan Reef, 4 Hallowed Fountain, 4 Steam Vents, 2 Island manabase for the eighteen land, twelve cantrip build is alright. I was only losing 3-4 life per game on average as opposed to the 6+ I was in the 8 fetch, 8 shockland, 2 Adarkar Wastes manabase, which is huge. However, there were a few awkward times were I had something like 2 Shivan Reef, 2 Steam Vents, 1 Hallowed Fountain and Seething Song+Enduring Ideal in hand, but I often also had a Pentad Prism or Lotus Bloom, so I don't think it should be that big of a problem. I thought the fetch+shockland base would assuredly be the best option, and it is for fixing purposes, but aggro will eat you alive if you have to start out at ~14 life every game.

[Mr. Froggy]

@KevinTrudeau: How often are you landing Ideal on Turn 3 with your current iteration of the deck?

[KevinTrudeau]

@KevinTrudeau: How often are you landing Ideal on Turn 3 with your current iteration of the deck?

Fairly often for a combo deck's nut-draw (T2 Prism, T3 Seething Song->Ideal). It's not super rare but it's not super common either. I'll try to log in one hundred goldfishes sometime and get some raw data on how often it occurs up here soon.

I think this could actually be a real deck. It has a very low ceiling because it can be hated out quite easily if it were ever to take off (especially considering Humility and Solitary Confinement aren't legal), but I don't think it's inherently worse right now than other blue-based combo decks (discounting Hive Mind, which I haven't played with or against).

[KevinTrudeau]

(sorry for the double post)

I just got done compiling a large amount of data concerning the deck over one hundred sample hands. Testing was done using Magic Workstation in Solitaire mode, with this list:

2 Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Steam Vents
4 Hallowed Fountain

4 Enduring Ideal
3 Form of the Dragon
2 Dovescape
2 Meishin, the Mind Cage
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
4 Pentad Prism

4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Serum Visions
4 Remand

Remand and the data: Every time I had two mana up (discounting Pentad Prism mana a majority of the time) and held Remand, I would cast it against the opponent's hypothetical spell. I figured that this particular case study's main goal was determine how fast the combo can be attained, which at its most useful in making decisions against disruptionless fast aggro decks that would usually be casting a threat every turn, so I took that into consideration and would Remand their hypothetical threat. It's important to take into consideration while analyzing the data that I wasn't specifically planning on leaving Remand up to counter any potential disruption whatsoever if it got in the way of making sure I could combo as fast as possible, and cantripped accordingly. I guess it's also important to note that many of the slower hands (like a turn five combo hand, and even a surprising amount of turn fours) had Remand backup in addition to the necessary combo mana the turn before comboing and/or the turn of the combo, which is something very important that won't translate into the data (something I suppose I could have and should have denoted in each hand).

Damage from lands and the data: Since putting shocklands into play untapped/tapping painlands for colored mana is a subjective decision, I'd just like to illustrate a few things to clear up some potential confusion over the data. Every time I had the option of putting a shockland into play untapped or tapping a painland on the first turn to cast a cantrip, I would put the shockland into play untapped. Every time I had the option of putting an inconsequential shockland into play, I would put it into play tapped. In every situation where a painland was the only way pay for a cantrip I intended on casting that turn, I would take one damage and tap the painland for blue mana. Every time I had the option of playing an Island on turn one to cast a cantrip, I would do so above any other land. As a rule of thumb, I would logically take the least amount of damage I could while not impeding my progress by not cantripping when I wanted to (which was most of the time, when I could).

The mulligan data is fairly subjective, so if anyone wants to know my mulligan trends or throw some sample hands my way and see if I'll keep or not to gain a better understanding of the data I compiled, just inquire; same thing goes for cantrip decisions. On a few small occasions, I did keep hands that would look kind of sketchy in a real game, but were good for goldfishing purposes (five land, Enduring Ideal, Lotus Bloom for example), so bear that in mind.

Casting Enduring Ideal would take precedence over casting any other big spell. Form of the Dragon would take precedence over Meishin the Mind Cage, which would take precedence over Dovescape.

All hands were played as if I won the roll and chose to play first, and no hands were cherrypicked or excluded.

I would sometimes cast Oblivion Ring or Blood Moon to simulate a real game-state. This would never take precedence over any sort of card drawing (including leaving Remand up). I just figured I should make a note of this because it might factor very, very slightly into the mean life total.

If anyone has any questions about something I potentially overlooked in explaining the data, the data itself, or about anything in general including important life decisions, let me know. Without further ado, here it is:

Key for future reference about anything:
I=Island
SR=Shivan Reef
AW=Adarkar Wastes
StV=Steam Vents
HF=Hallowed Fountain

EI=Enduring Ideal (which is clearly what Nelly was referring to in that one song, he must be a M:tG player)
FotD=Form of the Dragon
MtMC= Meishin, the Mind Cage
DS=Dovescape
OR=Oblivion Ring
BM=Blood Moon

LB=Lotus Bloom
PP=Pentad Prism
SS=Seething Song

PON=Ponder
PRE=Preordain
SeV=Serum Visions
R=Remand

Number of cards in starting hand/Turn in which I comboed out/Damage dealt by lands/Card cast

Hands 1-50
Hand 1: 7/3/3/EI
Hand 2: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 3: 6/4/2/EI
Hand 4: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 5: 7/4/2/FotD
Hand 6: 7/7/0/EI
Hand 7: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 8: 7/3/4/EI
Hand 9: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 10: 7/3/2/EI
Hand 11: 7/4/4/FotD
Hand 12: 7/5/4/EI
Hand 13: 6/4/3/MtMC
Hand 14: 7/3/4/EI
Hand 15: 7/4/1/EI
Hand 16: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 17: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 18: 7/4/6/EI
Hand 19: 7/3/4/FotD
Hand 20: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 21: 7/5/3/FotD
Hand 22: 7/5/5/FotD
Hand 23: 7/5/2/EI
Hand 24: 7/3/4/FotD
Hand 25: 6/4/2/EI
Hand 26: 7/5/2/EI
Hand 27: 7/5/2/EI
Hand 28: 7/4/5/MtMC
Hand 29: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 30: 7/4/1/EI
Hand 31: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 32: 6/4/2/EI
Hand 33: 7/4/2/FotD
Hand 34: 7/4/4/FotD
Hand 35: 7/4/4/FotD
Hand 36: 7/3/2/FotD
Hand 37: 7/3/6/EI
Hand 38: 7/5/4/EI
Hand 39: 7/4/4/FotD
Hand 40: 7/3/3/FotD
Hand 41: 7/5/7/EI
Hand 42: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 43: 5/3/4/EI
Hand 44: 6/4/2/EI
Hand 45: 7/4/0/FotD
Hand 46: 5/3/2/EI
Hand 47: 6/5/4/EI
Hand 48: 7/5/4/FotD
Hand 49: 6/4/0/EI
Hand 50: 7/4/4/EI

Hands 51-100
Hand 51: 7/3/4/FotD
Hand 52: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 53: 7/5/2/EI
Hand 54: 6/6/1/MtMC
Hand 55: 7/4/4/FotD
Hand 56: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 57: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 58: 6/5/2/EI
Hand 59: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 60: 7/5/3/EI
Hand 61: 7/4/1/EI
Hand 62: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 63: 7/3/1/FotD
Hand 64: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 65: 6/5/6/EI
Hand 66: 7/5/6/EI
Hand 67: 7/4/1/EI
Hand 68: 7/5/2/EI
Hand 69: 7/3/3/EI
Hand 70: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 71: 7/4/3/EI
Hand 72: 7/3/2/EI
Hand 73: 7/4/1/EI
Hand 74: 6/6/4/EI
Hand 75: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 76: 7/3/1/FotD
Hand 77: 7/5/0/EI
Hand 78: 6/4/3/EI
Hand 79: 7/5/6/EI
Hand 80: 5/4/4/FotD
Hand 81: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 82: 6/5/4/EI
Hand 83: 7/4/6/EI
Hand 84: 4/5/2/FotD
Hand 85: 7/4/2/FotD
Hand 86: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 87: 7/3/3/FotD
Hand 88: 7/9/4/EI
Hand 89: 7/6/4/EI
Hand 90: 7/4/1/FotD
Hand 91: 7/5/0/EI
Hand 92: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 93: 7/4/0/EI
Hand 94: 7/5/6/EI
Hand 95: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 96: 7/4/4/EI
Hand 97: 6/4/4/FotD
Hand 98: 7/4/3/FotD
Hand 99: 7/4/2/EI
Hand 100: 7/4/3/EI

Percentages
7 card hand 82% of the time
6 card hand 14% of the time
5 card hand 3% of the time
4 card hand 1% of the time

Third turn combo 17% of the time
Fourth turn combo 56% of the time
Fifth turn combo 22% of the time
Sixth turn combo 3% of the time
Seventh turn combo 1% of the time
Ninth turn combo 1% of the time

Lands lost zero life 11% of the time
Lands lost one life 9% of the time
Lands lost two life 25% of the time
Lands lost three life 16% of the time
Lands lost four life 29% of the time
Lands lost five life 2% of the time
Lands lost six life 7% of the time
Lands lost seven life 1% of the time

Enduring Ideal was cast as the first attempted win condition 72% of the time
Form of the Dragon was cast as the first attempted win condition 25% of the time
Meishin, the Mind Cage was cast as the first attempted win condition 3% of the time

Enduring Ideal was cast on the third turn 9% of the time
Enduring Ideal was cast on the fourth turn 41% of the time

Averages
Mean hand size-6.77
Mode hand size-7

Mean combo turn-4.19
Mode combo turn- 4

Mean life loss caused by lands-2.82
Mode life loss caused by lands-4

Conclusions- I think the manabase turned out to be excellent, as I don't think I was ever cut off from a color, and the life loss was much less than with fetches. If you're looking for a more streamlined version of Enduring Ideal, I think this or something similar is your best bet.

[Basaka]

I have a question regarding the order of searching up enchantments against different decks i.e.

Against zoo, would it be safer to IE -> MtMC -> Dovescape -> Form to prevent them burning you out? Similarly with RDW/burn would it be safer to dovescape then form?

[Mojeh]

@ KevinTrudeau

Great job doing the tests and the math.
But how do you expect the deck behaves against counters?
Can we actually race fast aggro decks, like Zoo or RDW?

[KevinTrudeau]

I have a question regarding the order of searching up enchantments against different decks i.e.

Against zoo, would it be safer to IE -> MtMC -> Dovescape -> Form to prevent them burning you out? Similarly with RDW/burn would it be safer to dovescape then form?

It all depends on how much power they have on the board. If they have lethal on board, then yes, go fetch up either Meishin or Form first. If they don't have lethal on board and I know they're not a Sligh-type build running Goblin Guide/Hellspark Elemental/Hell's Thunder, I'll always get Dovescape first, then Meishin usually, then Form, because you dodge burn and any noncreature enchantment removal that way. Once you play with the deck for a bit, it'll become second nature.


@ KevinTrudeau

Great job doing the tests and the math.
But how do you expect the deck behaves against counters?
Can we actually race fast aggro decks, like Zoo or RDW?

The deck is fine against counters because of Remand and the fact that if the control opponent is countering our accelerants without applying a clock, we can just hardcast our enchantments/Ideal if need be. Boseiju out of the board is also an all-star.

Considering I was racing Zoo, Sligh, and Burn about half the time when I was losing ~6 life (rough estimate) per game due to my lands, now that I'm losing 2.82 a game, things should be a lot smoother.

[(nameless one)]

Instead of running Fetchlands and Shocklands, would Filterlands work? I am looking into this deck and I am still learning. I am uncomfortable with how much life you lose from Shock/Fetchlands.

[Mr. Froggy]

@KevingTrudeau: Wow, excellent work! :D I noticed that the deck hardly needs to mulligan, which is an amazing plus.

Also, you can race Zoo pretty easily (unless they cast Pridemage et al., then it gets somewhat harder), but its not a losing match-up. I would actually want to face Zoo when I played it in PTQs.

As for control, as KevinTrudeau said, you can just end up hardcasting your Ideal/enchantments if it ever gets to that point.

I played Bant Aggro (wtv it was called Dark Bant or something), I went T3 FotD followed up by T4-T5 Dovescape.

[KevinTrudeau]

Instead of running Fetchlands and Shocklands, would Filterlands work? I am looking into this deck and I am still learning. I am uncomfortable with how much life you lose from Shock/Fetchlands.

In the twelve cantrip list, I would not advise running any land that cannot tap for blue mana on its own, simply because of the antergy with cantrips on the first turn; there are a lot of one-land hands that are very keepable in this deck, but would be auto-mulligans if you had Reflecting Pool or Mystic Gate as your one land. If you're really worried about life loss, replace a few Steam Vents or Shivan Reefs with Islands. The optimal manabase in my mind for the deck would probably be more UW lands than UR lands (like 9/7 or 10/6), so it probably wouldn't be too bad if you cut a few Reefs/Vents.


@KevingTrudeau: Wow, excellent work! :D I noticed that the deck hardly needs to mulligan, which is an amazing plus.

Also, you can race Zoo pretty easily (unless they cast Pridemage et al., then it gets somewhat harder), but its not a losing match-up. I would actually want to face Zoo when I played it in PTQs.

As for control, as KevinTrudeau said, you can just end up hardcasting your Ideal/enchantments if it ever gets to that point.

I played Bant Aggro (wtv it was called Dark Bant or something), I went T3 FotD followed up by T4-T5 Dovescape.

Thanks!

Speaking of Qasali Pridemage, he's probably our number one adversary. What do you think is the best way of fighting it and other stuff like Acidic Slime?

[Basaka]

Pithing needle should deal with pridemage. Too bad Sterling grove isn't legal in this format...

[Mr. Froggy]

Speaking of Qasali Pridemage, he's probably our number one adversary. What do you think is the best way of fighting it and other stuff like Acidic Slime?

What I would do is run SoFs, but I don't know if they're the best thing. I think Pithing Needle is an extremely viable option. I doubt people are going to start running Ronom Unicorns in Modern just because of Ideal. :P

As for Acidic Slime, I'm not sure.

EDIT: The SoFs were for (but not limited to) Teeg, Canonist, Pridemage, etc. (all 2/2 hatebears running around).

[jjjoness']

Pithing needle should deal with pridemage. Too bad Sterling grove isn't legal in this format...

Greater Auramancy is and basically fulfilles the same purpose here. Also there's Priviledged Position but I prefer the mana requirements of Auramancy. Protecting your lands isn't really important postcombo anyway.

[kaosjr]

Have you considered Idyllic tutor?

[Mr. Froggy]

You don't really want to use I. Tutor in the deck, since EI does all the work for you.

[KevinTrudeau]

Greater Auramancy is pretty much exactly what I was looking for, a version of Privileged Position that can actually be realistically cast before we try and win the game. Thanks Triple J. I predict it'll be a mainstay in the board along with Seal of Fire (which deals with pretty much every hate bear known to man, including Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor).

Another reason to curse at Wizards for making Modern 8th Edition-present: Decree of Silence.

[(nameless one)]

Doesn't Dovescape fulfill Decree of Silence's role anyways?

[Mr. Froggy]

Dovescape kind of does, but it counters only non-creature spells, which is why Pridemage is such a pain.

[KevinTrudeau]

Yeah, Decree wouldn't have even likely been played above Dovescape, but it would have been a nice tool to have within the realm of possibilities. Would have been nice against creature-based forms of enchantment removal.

For all of you budget-minded folks out there (myself included), a 6 Island, 8 painland, 4 City of Brass land scheme should perform very, very close to a 2 Island, 8 shockland, 8 painland manabase, and even has better synergy with a Blood Moon you might want to cast before casting Ideal or one of your big enchantments. It'll be the manabase I'll rock in real life until the shocklands get reprinted (hopefully next summer or fall), because I'm not paying $35 apiece for cards that will assuredly see a new mass print run in the near future.

What would you guys think of Squelch, Trickbind, or even Azorius Guildmage in the sideboard?

[woremak]

I think Guildmage is probably the best option. The other two do nothing when you have Dovescape out, and while Guildmage costs more it stops them from popping a Pridemage on Dovescape and then blowing up more stuff.

[Mr. Froggy]

I ran Trickbind in my sb, and found it pretty good.

Also, I can't believe I payed my Steam Vents $10/ea., and they're now:$25/ea.

[Jodahae]

If you are currently testing the deck then I want to suggest adding a single Phyrexian Unlife. Currently Im playing it in the 2nd Dovescape slot, dovescape has been a card that I love seeing after Ideals, but really feel hindered behind if i need to cast 1 before ideals can fire off.

The unlife has allowed me to shore up alot of the suicide aggro decks that I have been running into. All in red and Tempered steel just roll over if you play it from hand a turn before they would aggro you out.

Another benefit to unlife is its interaction between FotD and unlife, since dragon is reseting you life every turn its nearly impossible to attack you back down to 0 and then deal any amount of poison, and then at the end of turn your life is back up to 5.

[Mr. Froggy]

Unlife is actually pretty sick, might need to test it. :)

[(nameless one)]

Yeah, Decree wouldn't have even likely been played above Dovescape, but it would have been a nice tool to have within the realm of possibilities. Would have been nice against creature-based forms of enchantment removal.

For all of you budget-minded folks out there (myself included), a 6 Island, 8 painland, 4 City of Brass land scheme should perform very, very close to a 2 Island, 8 shockland, 8 painland manabase, and even has better synergy with a Blood Moon you might want to cast before casting Ideal or one of your big enchantments. It'll be the manabase I'll rock in real life until the shocklands get reprinted (hopefully next summer or fall), because I'm not paying $35 apiece for cards that will assuredly see a new mass print run in the near future.

What would you guys think of Squelch, Trickbind, or even Azorius Guildmage in the sideboard?

I've been testing this deck in Cockatrice and I have to say, not buying more Shocklands sounds great so I can play this in real life.

As for other things, whats the current sideboard of this deck right now. I think Greater Auramancy would be good post board as the two things I've been dreading to see are Qasali Pridemage (against Zoo and Bant or any Zenith decks) and Acidic Slime (12-Post and Birthing Pod decks).

I also like the idea of Suppression Field (against Pod decks and Twin decks) though is Ghostly Prison that needed?

Whats your current sideboard now guys?

[Mr. Safety]

Folks will most likely be bringing Wispmare and War Priest of Thune as well as the potential Ronom Unicorn. I know I would be using Whispmare, if only to conserve mana. The power isn't really relivant so long as the combo is held in check.

[Sims]

Folks will most likely be bringing Wispmare and War Priest of Thune as well as the potential Ronom Unicorn. I know I would be using Whispmare, if only to conserve mana. The power isn't really relivant so long as the combo is held in check.

I don't think we have to worry about those QUITE yet. I haven't seen a lot of people playing EI on MWS as they've been favoring homebrew aggro, 12 post, or the other flavors of combo. If the deck does take off then we need to have some kind of contingency plan, even if it means boarding 4 Torpor Orbs ontop of Supression Fields to stop the triggered and the activated disenchant effects. Seal of Fire also works on the small hate bears that would keep us from going off.

It is a serious issue, but Orb/Field in conjunction with Greater Auramancy's should protect us in games 2-3, but we shall see.

[Mr. Safety]

EI is really hard to hate out unless you're playing countermagic. Dovescape is very similar to Hive Mind in that regard, because once it hits, you are sunk (for the most part) because of the replacement effect of getting the 1/1's. Because it's hard to hate out, it will get some attention, for sure. I can't wait until the pro-tour in Philly reveals what folks are playing.

I also like Prison Term alongside Suppression Fields...they would have to have to layer their hate, which makes them susceptable to other decks in the format. This makes EI a good deck, and Prison Term is good against the aggro in the format, too.

[Maveric78f]

12-posts laughs at Dovescape with Primeval Titan and Emrakul. Zoo is too fast and plays Qasali/Teeg. As you said countermagic is simply better than a deck that tries to resolve 6/7-CC spells. And Splinter Twin is both faster and plays countermagic.

I do'nt see a single reason for playing Enduring Ideal. Cf, my small primer on Splinter Twin, overall, I think that EI is the worst combo deck in development on the source.

[Mr. Safety]

12-post doesn't laugh at Form of the Dragon...and EI can fetch that up on turn 3 before even Primeval Titan gets onto the battlefield (typically.)

There is also maindeck Delay/Remand/Oblivion Ring. Sideboarded Phyrexian Unlife, Blood Moon, and potentially Moonhold

[Sims]

In my test games so far (maindecked only, neither of us had a proper board built) I've gone 50/50 with my friend playing 12-Post Green using an EI build with only 1 maindeck blood moon and 6 maindeck counterspells.

The issue came down to fundamental turn. If I had songs and blooms into turn 4 EI, I won. If I had blood moon and counterspells to slow him down, I typically won. If I didn't have blood moon and his opening involved 2-3 posts, I lost. If I didn't have rituals I was typicaly a mana down (beast withins targeting my lands/prisms) and couldn't cast EI before he cast Emrakul. That's a loss, too.

Zoo is fast, I'll grant you. But I can play supression fields to stop/slow down pridemage plus greater auramancy to make him weaker. And when EI reolves I've got Dovescape to stop burn, Form to kill them and prevent their attack. Ghostly prison out of the board can stall them and give them more targets for pridemage to keep them off my win cons..

Supression Field, Countermagic, Meishen all smile at Twin...

I don't see how this is the worst combo deck being worked on. We're not talking about Shared fate.dec here.

I think maindeck the match is very dependant on players and lists, but is essentially a coinflip. Post board is anyones guess, at the moment... I have more blood moons and Greater Auramancy's to stop disenchant effects and delay his mana ramp. I don't think it's a bad matchup at all.

[Maveric78f]

It looks like you're planing to play control in every MU. Just know it's not going to work.

Also zoo is probably the slowest to kill right now.

As a general criticism, please be more specific. What is your list, what are your game plans? For instance, against zoo, let's say you resolve EI as you are at 20 life (it's a miracle) what exactly do you search for? Dovescape and die from Teeg or Form of the dragon and die from burn? In this particular MU, I don't see a single reliable game plan.

Against 12-post, what do you search for? Blood Moon first? Do you think you have time? not afraid of Beast Within? Dovescape and just lose from mana ramp into chalice/GSz or infinite Emrakul turns? Form and once more, make enough place for Emrakul/Terastodon/Ulamog? Also, even if it's stupidly funny, 12-post can easily play chalice@7.

Against Splinter Twin, although I recognize Suppression field is the best answer, Splinter Twin is probably going to play the control deck post SB, with Teachings and Ancient Grudge to nullify mana acceleration (terrarion/lotus blossom). It should eventually be capable of killing with 2/1 and 1/4 before IE is capable of resolving any high CC spell.

[Sims]

I'm at work at the moment so I'll give a general answer and if i've got time later i'll go more in depth (prepping for road trip -> wedding at the moment after work)


As a general criticism, please be more specific. What is your list, what are your game plans?
Right I started with the 12-cantrip maindeck posted by Kevin Trudeau and immediately dropped 2 Serum visions for 2 Dispel (which then got switched into Spell Pierce) and bounce between Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions... I hate both but i'm not sure Peer through Depths will be better due to mana cost. That's something I have yet to test. But the rest of the maindeck ahs remained the same so far as it's performed exceptional in the paper and MWS testing I've done.

Right now my board, again testing phase so i've got a huge board and i'm narrowing it down to what I need:
Leyline of Sanctity
Greater Auramancy
Supression Field
Angel's Grace (probably not staying unless hive mind is huge)
Ghostly Prison
More Moons as they're amazing
Pyroclasm/Firespout
Seal of Fire
Boseiju
More Pierces/Dispels/Mana Leaks

As I get more testing in I will narrow the board down and give a more refined list.


For instance, against zoo, let's say you resolve EI as you are at 20 life (it's a miracle) what exactly do you search for? Dovescape and die from Teeg or Form of the dragon and die from burn? In this particular MU, I don't see a single reliable game plan.

Board state dependant. If they have tons of creatures I'll probably search Meishin first to reduce/nullify the attack before grabbing dovescape and ultimately form. Post Board I would likely want a combination of Auramancy (i expect more disenchant effects from the board) and either removal (firestorm/seal) or Ghostly Prison. I haven't ran into this matchup much as most of my paper/mws testing partners don't like playing aggro decks and I don't have a card pool on MODO anymore.


Against 12-post, what do you search for? Blood Moon first? Do you think you have time? not afraid of Beast Within? Dovescape and just lose from mana ramp into chalice/GSz or infinite Emrakul turns? Form and once more, make enough place for Emrakul/Terastodon/Ulamog? Also, even if it's stupidly funny, 12-post can easily play chalice @ 7

Game 1 the idea has been to lay Moon/Oblivion Rings on their early shit (battlements, magus of the candelabra, oracle of mul daya) to slow their development and Counter things where applicable. If I EI turn 4-5 it's up to their mana situation. If they can hardcast an eldrazi, go for the moon and pray they don't have beast. If they can't cast an Eldrazi on the next turn, go for dovescape before moon. Post-board bring in more moons so that you can play them out early and force them to waste Beasts... but the idea pretty much stays the same: disrupt where applicable and then EI into Moon/Dovescape


Against Splinter Twin, although I recognize Suppression field is the best answer, Splinter Twin is probably going to play the control deck post SB, with Teachings and Ancient Grudge to nullify mana acceleration (terrarion/lotus blossom). It should eventually be capable of killing with 2/1 and 1/4 before IE is capable of resolving any high CC spell.

Game 1 is generally a wash. It's a matter of who resolves their combo first. If I EI and am able to play Mind Cage prior to their combo the game should be over. Game 2, you're right, it becomes tougher as they're board strategy will greatly alter the matchup. I'd definitely bring in Supression field and maybe 2 Ghostly Prisons and any other countermagic i've got, possibly boseiju if I've got them in the board. Still push to resolve EI and find Meishin/Field -> Meishen/Dovescape depending on if i've played field.


Again: I'm not saying this deck is the best deck in modern nor am I saying these matchups are favorable. Winnable is the term I'd use until i can really dig in and test more, perhaps after my honeymoon. It's going to vary a lot until the best lists for decks are found and the format settles, but I think it was a bit of a stretch to auto-label it as the worst deck in development here. I don't think it's THAT bad.

[KevinTrudeau]

12-posts laughs at Dovescape with Primeval Titan and Emrakul. Zoo is too fast and plays Qasali/Teeg. As you said countermagic is simply better than a deck that tries to resolve 6/7-CC spells. And Splinter Twin is both faster and plays countermagic.

Splinter Twin is actually not faster, if you'd have bothered to read any of the data I compiled on the first page you'd have known the deck can cast EI on turn three ~9% of the time (or any seven mana enchantment on turn three in addition to Ideal ~17% of the time). This deck also plays countermagic in the form of a set of Remands.


In my test games so far (maindecked only, neither of us had a proper board built) I've gone 50/50 with my friend playing 12-Post Green using an EI build with only 1 maindeck blood moon and 6 maindeck counterspells.

The issue came down to fundamental turn. If I had songs and blooms into turn 4 EI, I won. If I had blood moon and counterspells to slow him down, I typically won. If I didn't have blood moon and his opening involved 2-3 posts, I lost. If I didn't have rituals I was typicaly a mana down (beast withins targeting my lands/prisms) and couldn't cast EI before he cast Emrakul. That's a loss, too.

Zoo is fast, I'll grant you. But I can play supression fields to stop/slow down pridemage plus greater auramancy to make him weaker. And when EI reolves I've got Dovescape to stop burn, Form to kill them and prevent their attack. Ghostly prison out of the board can stall them and give them more targets for pridemage to keep them off my win cons..

Supression Field, Countermagic, Meishen all smile at Twin...

I don't see how this is the worst combo deck being worked on. We're not talking about Shared fate.dec here.

I think maindeck the match is very dependant on players and lists, but is essentially a coinflip. Post board is anyones guess, at the moment... I have more blood moons and Greater Auramancy's to stop disenchant effects and delay his mana ramp. I don't think it's a bad matchup at all.

Suppression Field is a card I haven't played with yet, but seems like an excellent replacement for the filler Zur's Weirding slots in the sideboard I'm testing; it's good against everything you listed in addition to Birthing Pod. Wheel of Sun and Moon hasn't been very impressive either, so I now have four empty slots in my tentative sideboard that could go towards that:

3 Boseiju
3 Seal of Fire
2 Greater Auramancy
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blood Moon
4 undecided

With the list I've been playing, 12post has been a slightly favorable matchup pre-board since this deck has the capability of going off on turn four or earlier a majority of the time.


As a general criticism, please be more specific. What is your list, what are your game plans? For instance, against zoo, let's say you resolve EI as you are at 20 life (it's a miracle) what exactly do you search for? Dovescape and die from Teeg or Form of the dragon and die from burn? In this particular MU, I don't see a single reliable game plan.

Except Gaddock Teeg doesn't do shit if it comes into play after EI resolves, because Epic puts a copy of EI onto the stack every upkeep, meaning it's never cast.


…wedding…

Congrats!

[Mr. Froggy]

It looks like you're planing to play control in every MU. Just know it's not going to work.

Also zoo is probably the slowest to kill right now.

As a general criticism, please be more specific. What is your list, what are your game plans? For instance, against zoo, let's say you resolve EI as you are at 20 life (it's a miracle) what exactly do you search for? Dovescape and die from Teeg or Form of the dragon and die from burn? In this particular MU, I don't see a single reliable game plan.

If I'm at 20 life, then I go for Dovescape, Meishin, Form. End of story.

[Maveric78f]

Except Gaddock Teeg doesn't do shit if it comes into play after EI resolves, because Epic puts a copy of EI onto the stack every upkeep, meaning it's never cast.
Sorry, I just noticed that. Then, my Teeg, Chalice, Dovescape remarks are not receivable. I just don't understand what's the use of Dovescape, if you're not generating 7 flying 1/1 each turn. First I thought it was the game plan. It's just here to protect from counterspells and anti-enchantments? It looks worse than Greater Auramancy, which can be hardcasted quite easily.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Dovescape also stops things like the enemy's own combo (storm, pyromancer's ascension, splinter twin, what have you) while Meishin makes the tokens they get incredibly worthless.

[Sims]

Congrats!

Totally OT, but Thanks!

[Mr. Froggy]

I just noticed the title changed to Enduring Ideal only. No one liked Colgate Total? :P

But Dovescape is the nuts vs combo decks, it truly is amazing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

But Dovescape is the nuts vs combo decks, it truly is amazing.

Yes. I learned this in combo EDH mirrors - Dovescape is game over for both combo and control. Aggro not so much, but we have other answers to those decks.

[(nameless one)]

@ Phyrexian Unlife

Should this on the main? Yesterday, I was playing on MWS against Mythic Conscription and it sucked that Meishin can't protect me with the first Sovereign trigger of Eldrazi Conscription (though the annihilation trigger wasn't there yet) I would imagine that both Form of the Dragon and Phyrexian Unlife would be the ideal Solitary Confinement alternative?

[Jodahae]

For the time yes, I would say you should have unlife main. It gives you the extra turn you often need against fast draws from aggro. They will often attack for what would be lethal but rarely have the reach to start infect. Then simply untapping into Form puts the game too far out of reach.

Unlife also allows you to not have to rely on the mind cage to shut down any dove tokens you give your opponent since lacking any first strike dmg or burn they will never deal you infect.

Also keep an eye out for the new cures in Innistrad. The black one looks somewhat playable as a Night of Soul's Betrayal that is one sided and can stack in multiples. Not sure how I feel about splashing a 4th color but definitely hoping the white and red curse are playable.

[freakish777]

Out of curiosity, why play this deck over Dragonstorm?

DStorm kills the turn you play it, is faster, requires less cards in your deck (6ish dragons compared to 8~9ish enchantments) and typically has a better plan against counterspells (Gigadrowse your lands on endstep, Rewind will not be seeing any play).

[Mr. Froggy]

I guess its because of versatility. The enchantment suite is built in a way to combat most other strategies.

[KevinTrudeau]

For the time yes, I would say you should have unlife main. It gives you the extra turn you often need against fast draws from aggro. They will often attack for what would be lethal but rarely have the reach to start infect. Then simply untapping into Form puts the game too far out of reach.

Unlife also allows you to not have to rely on the mind cage to shut down any dove tokens you give your opponent since lacking any first strike dmg or burn they will never deal you infect.

Also keep an eye out for the new cures in Innistrad. The black one looks somewhat playable as a Night of Soul's Betrayal that is one sided and can stack in multiples. Not sure how I feel about splashing a 4th color but definitely hoping the white and red curse are playable.

I'm starting to think Phyrexian Unlife should definitely have a slot in the main to go along with the singleton Blood Moon as well; losing to aggro decks despite casting Enduring Ideal just doesn't feel right. I'm gonna either shave off a Form, Dovescape, or Meishin and see how it goes.

Excellent find by the way, my friend, and I'll definitely keep an eye out on those new enchantments.


Out of curiosity, why play this deck over Dragonstorm?

DStorm kills the turn you play it, is faster, requires less cards in your deck (6ish dragons compared to 8~9ish enchantments) and typically has a better plan against counterspells (Gigadrowse your lands on endstep, Rewind will not be seeing any play).

In all honesty, it's because it's been a pet deck of mine ever since I played against it in a Kami block GPT back in 2005. Objectively, it definitely seems weaker than most other blue-base combo decks out there right now. The only concrete advantage it has over Dragonstorm is that you only need to hit seven mana as opposed to nine.

[Mr. Froggy]

In all honesty, it's because it's been a pet deck of mine ever since I played against it in a Kami block GPT back in 2005. Objectively, it definitely seems weaker than most other blue-base combo decks out there right now. The only concrete advantage it has over Dragonstorm is that you only need to hit seven mana as opposed to nine.

Same goes for me... I've always been the type of player that if I love the art on a card, I'll try to make it work. And I have a foil EI, and I LOVE IT.

[jjjoness']

New interesting stuff from Inistrad.


Curse of Death's Hold 3BB
Enchantment - Aura Curse Rare
Enchant Player
Creatures enchanted player controls gets -1/-1.

I think this should replace Night of Souls' Betrayal, since you're not going to hardcast it anyway and this + Dovescape = win.

[Jodahae]

I think that playing enchantments that you cannot cast; or have to drastically alter the mana base should be avoided at all costs. Although a strict upgrade to Night of Souls Betrayal, I dont believe that you should try stretching the deck to include a 4th color since its primarily U/W/r.

The crux of this deck is that most if not all of your game breaking enchantments are clogging up the 7cmc slots in the deck. This deck is a control/combo deck in that you should be playing the control role until you are able to lock the game away with an ideals or a hardcast Form or Dovescape/Meishin.

Knowing that if we include things like Blood moon and O-ring and Unlife we are better able to play the control role by curving into these smaller enchantments that will keep the opponent from getting away from us to fast.

[Mr. Froggy]

I don't know if I'd consider it more control than combo. I usually find myself trying to Ideal as soon as possible to lock out the game that much quicker.

[Sims]

Out of curiosity, why play this deck over Dragonstorm?

DStorm kills the turn you play it, is faster, requires less cards in your deck (6ish dragons compared to 8~9ish enchantments) and typically has a better plan against counterspells (Gigadrowse your lands on endstep, Rewind will not be seeing any play).

Pet deck thing aside, it's a deck that in my current Modern meta has a competitive shot at winning that I had the cards for already and didn't need to buy anything else. I don't have dragonstorms nor do I have swaths/acensions or i'd likely be playing one of those decks. But since I mostly play for the fun of playing now days, and I find EI to be way more fun than playing Sunrise.

[(nameless one)]

So...

Ponder and Preordain got banned. Would Sleigh of Hand be a good alternative? What about See Beyond or Peer Through Depths?

Personally, I think the deck could use Gifts Ungiven to abuse Spellweaver Helix along with a retrace or a flashback card.

[Sims]

So...

Ponder and Preordain got banned. Would Sleigh of Hand be a good alternative? What about See Beyond or Peer Through Depths?

Personally, I think the deck could use Gifts Ungiven to abuse Spellweaver Helix along with a retrace or a flashback card.

Sleight and Serum Visions would sadly be your 8 main cantrips, and your 2-4 backups would have to be soemthing like See Beyond or Peer Through Depths, both of which are lackluster. Peer will help find the EI you need, but it doesn't grab you an enchantment when you need to stick a pre-Ideal greater auramancy or something.

[Mr. Safety]

Serum Visions
Mystic Speculation

[KevinTrudeau]

Looks like the deck will likely have to undergo a change in philosophy now that Ponder and Preordain got banned- I'm thinking more lands, more counters, and a bigger emphasis on castable enchantments (Oblivion Ring, Suppression Field, etc.) in the maindeck.

[KevinTrudeau]

After hearing that Modern was a fun and diverse format from a multitude of people, I decided I'd check it out again. Naturally, the first deck I decided to test was this. Here's my preliminary list, post-Ponder, Preordain ban:

6 Island
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Shivan Reef
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass

4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Seething Song

4 Enduring Ideal
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Dovescape

4 Remand
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

SB:

4 Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Greater Auramancy
1 Paradox Haze
1 Blood Moon
1 Nevermore

I don't know anything about the metagame, so this list is probably pretty rough. I'm basically using the old manabase with Gemstone Mines on top of it; it will probably need to be overhauled. As I said in my last post, the deck probably needs to lean a bit more towards the 'control' side of the combo-control spectrum because of the bannings, which is what I tried to do with this list. I'm assuming some aggro deck is probably the #1 deck in the format, which is why the four additional controllish slots are Ghostly Prisons; Prison also creates splash damage towards the Splinter Twin matchup, which seems extremely awesome. The four-ofs in the board would likely supplant the Prisons, Silence for control and Past in Flames (seemingly solid theoretical play- casting it during an upkeep where you want to resolve Lotus Bloom and a wincon in the same turn against control), and Leyline for discard and burn. The Paradox Haze/Auramancy package is just filling up space until I can find something better. Really though, all I want to do is get some more discussion going about this awesome deck, so, yeah.

[Jodahae]

Kevin- Great to see someone else pick up the deck post banning. I see from you list that you are playing with 5color lands, yet your not splashing any colors outside of the traditional U/W/r. Ive been really pleased playing a mana base of this

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Adarkar Wastes
4 Shivan Reef
2 Island

I am considering dropping 2 reefs for City of Brass as to play Night of Souls Betrayal from the board. Im not sure if having 4 prisons is effective but if it works let us know, right now I play firespout/Slagstorm in that spot since it seems to be an all but cheaper Wrath in that spot and cmc.

Id like to all so put out there for anyone considering the deck that I run a split of 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Silence as my protection suite. Keeping up 2 mana rather than 1 has lost me a few games and from my initial testing Pierce is nearly as good as any 2cmc counter.

[jschro]

I've been thinking about delving into Modern play.. so I came to this forum to browse different options. I looked at the original list posted, and it took me a few minutes to figure it out, but once I did I became intrigued. I just may try this one out.

[Mr. Safety]

I love the interactions of this deck. Ramp to seven mana, win the game.

The fastest decks of the format are now mostly red-based (zoo is still out there, but it's pretty quiet right now.) Kuldotha Red is incredibly fast with explosive starts, Affinity is still fairly explosive (and resilient), and Splinter Twin is still most likely the combo deck to beat. The good news for Enduring Ideal: it can actually win against Splinter Twin fairly consistently.

The real challenge for this deck is getting a CONSISTENT turn 3 Enduring Ideal. That's really tough when there isn't enough artifacts to feed the Resaphe/Lotus Bloom engine like Second Sunrise does. But here's the crazy part:

Can Second Sunrise feed Enduring Ideal? Can the lists be bastardized to make a consistent turn 3 combo deck? The EI combo really only takes up 6 slots (4 Ideal, Dovescape, Form) and 7 if you include maindeck Meishin.

Rough list:

4x Conjurer's Bauble
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star
4x Elsewhere Flask
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Reshape
4x Second Sunrise
4x Enduring Ideal
4x Seething Song
4x See Beyond
1x Dovescape
1x Form of the Dragon

4x Ghost Quarter
8x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa


See Beyond is there in case you actually draw one of your combo pieces (Form, Dovescape) which might actually happen quite a bit considering the Sunrise engine.

Thoughts? Is this just too damn crazy to pull off?

[KevinTrudeau]

Kevin- Great to see someone else pick up the deck post banning. I see from you list that you are playing with 5color lands, yet your not splashing any colors outside of the traditional U/W/r. Ive been really pleased playing a mana base of this

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Adarkar Wastes
4 Shivan Reef
2 Island

I am considering dropping 2 reefs for City of Brass as to play Night of Souls Betrayal from the board. Im not sure if having 4 prisons is effective but if it works let us know, right now I play firespout/Slagstorm in that spot since it seems to be an all but cheaper Wrath in that spot and cmc.

Id like to all so put out there for anyone considering the deck that I run a split of 3 Spell Pierce and 1 Silence as my protection suite. Keeping up 2 mana rather than 1 has lost me a few games and from my initial testing Pierce is nearly as good as any 2cmc counter.

Yeah, that manabase was, in large part, a budget one (though I found it to be pretty much equal to one with shocks and fetches when the deck had twelve awesome cantrips). On MWS, I'm currently basically playing your suggested one, upping the overall count to a nice, round, arbitrary twenty by filling out the set of Adarkar Wastes, and subbing the fetches for four more shocklands (that's a holdover from the old lists, as Bolting yourself on turn one to cast a cantrip just sucked; I'll definitely try out fetches soon).

Firestorm/Slagstorm may very well be better than some or all of the Ghostly Prisons, I'll need to test. Same goes for Spell Pierce, a card that could easily be in the maindeck.


I love the interactions of this deck. Ramp to seven mana, win the game.

The fastest decks of the format are now mostly red-based (zoo is still out there, but it's pretty quiet right now.) Kuldotha Red is incredibly fast with explosive starts, Affinity is still fairly explosive (and resilient), and Splinter Twin is still most likely the combo deck to beat. The good news for Enduring Ideal: it can actually win against Splinter Twin fairly consistently.

The real challenge for this deck is getting a CONSISTENT turn 3 Enduring Ideal. That's really tough when there isn't enough artifacts to feed the Resaphe/Lotus Bloom engine like Second Sunrise does. But here's the crazy part:

Can Second Sunrise feed Enduring Ideal? Can the lists be bastardized to make a consistent turn 3 combo deck? The EI combo really only takes up 6 slots (4 Ideal, Dovescape, Form) and 7 if you include maindeck Meishin.

Rough list:

4x Conjurer's Bauble
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star
4x Elsewhere Flask
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Reshape
4x Second Sunrise
4x Enduring Ideal
4x Seething Song
4x See Beyond
1x Dovescape
1x Form of the Dragon

4x Ghost Quarter
8x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa


See Beyond is there in case you actually draw one of your combo pieces (Form, Dovescape) which might actually happen quite a bit considering the Sunrise engine.

Thoughts? Is this just too damn crazy to pull off?

Looks cool; if I have time tomorrow, I'll definitely check it out. My iteration of the deck's fundamental turn is four, so this would be a new direction for the archetype (currently, the only way to combo on turn three is t2 Prism into t3 Seething Song).

Also, even though I love the card for nostalgic reasons, I cut the Meishin out of the maindeck, adding in a second copy of that new Phyrexian enchantment (I also brought the land count down to 20 from the list I posted above so I could fit in a third FotD). It was proving to be way too good to justify Meishin over it, especially considering the line of t1 suspend Lotus Bloom, t3 Phyrexian enchantment, t4 cast Bloom, cast Ideal or FotD. If you're looking to play an enchantment of that nature, definitely try out that new one over Meishin.

[Mr. Safety]

Splinter Twin also has a fundamental turn 4, and doesn't need to rely on Lotus Bloom...just it's disruption. I think you'll have a hard time dealing with their Remands/Dispels. The only way to consistently beat them is to lower your fundamental turn to turn 3 (or even turn 2, if it's possible!)

There are lots of options against the metagame for a deck like this though:

Silence (Splinter Twin)
Duress (combo, control)
Pact of Negation (control)
Angel's Grace (anything so you can combo out next turn)
Phyrexian Unlife (everything but Twin)
Pithing Needle (Splinter Twin)
Hurkyl's Recall (Affinity)

The great part is that Form of the Dragon can be hardcasted on turn 3, allowing for the potential to save you from aggro decks. Affinity uses Vault Skirge and Inkmoth Nexus though...and that's a problem. Phyrexian Unlife does nothing against Inkmoth Nexus, and actually helps them. The good news is that their fundamental turn is around turn 4 (or later if you can somehow deal with Cranial Plating). That gives you plenty of time to combo out by turn 4 (assuming a turn 1 Lotus Bloom.)

I think the only way to break Lotus Bloom in the format is Reshape. It allows for a turn 2 Black Lotus, which can fuel your Sunrise engine. Multiple Reshapes and ways to play them is the most powerful thing you can do in the format in my opinion.

[Mr. Froggy]

I love the interactions of this deck. Ramp to seven mana, win the game.

The fastest decks of the format are now mostly red-based (zoo is still out there, but it's pretty quiet right now.) Kuldotha Red is incredibly fast with explosive starts, Affinity is still fairly explosive (and resilient), and Splinter Twin is still most likely the combo deck to beat. The good news for Enduring Ideal: it can actually win against Splinter Twin fairly consistently.

The real challenge for this deck is getting a CONSISTENT turn 3 Enduring Ideal. That's really tough when there isn't enough artifacts to feed the Resaphe/Lotus Bloom engine like Second Sunrise does. But here's the crazy part:

Can Second Sunrise feed Enduring Ideal? Can the lists be bastardized to make a consistent turn 3 combo deck? The EI combo really only takes up 6 slots (4 Ideal, Dovescape, Form) and 7 if you include maindeck Meishin.

Rough list:

4x Conjurer's Bauble
4x Chromatic Sphere
4x Chromatic Star
4x Elsewhere Flask
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Reshape
4x Second Sunrise
4x Enduring Ideal
4x Seething Song
4x See Beyond
1x Dovescape
1x Form of the Dragon

4x Ghost Quarter
8x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa


See Beyond is there in case you actually draw one of your combo pieces (Form, Dovescape) which might actually happen quite a bit considering the Sunrise engine.

Thoughts? Is this just too damn crazy to pull off?

I don't know if I'd mix both decks together, since they do different things. If you get the Second Sunrise combo off, you might as well win that turn, no?

[Mr. Safety]

I don't know if I'd mix both decks together, since they do different things. If you get the Second Sunrise combo off, you might as well win that turn, no?
Absolutely! All you would need to do is add in 1x Pyrite Spellbomb to the list and you can go in two directions.

Why? It allows you to diversify your combo. I have quite a bit of experience with Second Sunrise, and the fizzle rate is a little high for my tastes. This allows you to seemingly be playing Sunrise combo...then drop a turn 3 Enduring Ideal. It might be a little too janky, but I'm wondering if decks could adequately hate out both Ideal and Sunrise. The experiment is to create resilience more than anything else.

[Jodahae]

If your testing this deck and you are currently looking to improve your Splinter Twin match up I found a fun little card that really throws a wrench in there game plan.

Leyline of Singularity

If Leyline of Singularity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

All nonland permanents are legendary.

This card stops both Kiki Jiki as well as Splinter Twin and must be removed if they want any chance of killing you.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I've had better luck with Silence, IoK, and Duress as protection over counterspells. If the opposing deck isn't blue, then Silence becomes half of a Time Walk for half the cost. Makes sense.

As for dig, I've had the most success with Serum Visions and Peer Through Depths. The former digs three down and the latter five. PTD is like Impulse on roids, looking at that extra card.

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [GP] Godless Shrine
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
3 [AN] City of Brass
1 [GP] Orzhov Basilica
1 [DIS] Azorius Chancery
1 [RAV] Boros Garrison

// Spells
4 [TSP] Lotus Bloom
4 [FD] Pentad Prism
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
4 [ROE] See Beyond
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [M11] Duress
4 [M11] Silence
4 [SOK] Enduring Ideal
2 [DIS] Dovescape
1 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 [SHM] Raking Canopy
2 [SC] Form of the Dragon
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

Dovescape, Curse, and Form have to be at least 2-ofs because you can't do anything outside See Beyond to put them back. I tried Lucent and Eldrazi and I found they never get used. I think they're a waste of space.

This is the best version I've tested so far.

[HorseshoeCrab]

A friend had a sweet idea while we were driving back from GP: Nashville...

Enduring Ideal > Curse of Death's Hold > Dovescape is a hard lock for the opponent, and you get 7 Doves each turn since Curse only shrinks the opponent's creatures!

This is a minor upgrade, but now you can use less slots for the combo kill and just focus on more card draw, ramp, etc.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Curse is better than Night only in the fact that you can hardcast it, then Dovescape and win. You can't do that with Night, because you'll lock yourself out.

Although, Curse targets your opponent so if they bring in Leyline of Sanctity or have some shroud effect, then you can't kill off the 1/1s Dovescape makes.

I have a updated list. IoK and Silence are still nice protection pieces, but Timely Reinforcements has also proven very useful as a 2-of. You are always going to be behind on life and creatures. If it proves itself more, then I'm gonna keep upping its count.

Also, See Beyond > Serum Visions in this deck. Blind draws aren't very good as I've come to find out. And you need a way to shuffle back any enchantments you draw. See Beyond has fit the bill best so far. I briefly tried Crystal Ball to avoid drawing enchantments, but it was very slow. I didn't test it extensively enough, so somebody else can try it.

3 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Boros Garrison
1 Orzhov Basilica

4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Seething Song
4 See Beyond
4 Peer Through Depths
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Enduring Ideal
2 Dovescape
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
1 Oblivion Ring

As for the sideboard, I think there are a few staples.

4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Blood Moon

Beyond that, I've seen most people using Firespout, Pithing Needle, Wheel of S&M, Duress, etc. It all depends on what you expect to face. You need Blood Moon for tron though and Greater Auramancy for decks with QPM. You need 4 Leyline for the decks with discard. You need to have that Leyline in play on turn zero so you can't get hit if you're on the draw. Against decks with burn, I find myself only siding in 1 Leyline as a safety net.