Top cards for Modern!

[KingJohnny]

What are some of the best cards in this format?
and what would you guys rate these cards 1-10
dark confidant
noble hierarch
Tarmogoyf
vendilion clique
cryptic command

what are some other powerful cards in this format?

[Amon Amarth]

Wild Nacatl and Thoughtseize are pretty awesome as well.

[perm]

Wild Nacatl

Nacatl requires a build-around in a sense, and while I agree it will almost warp the format, I don't think it is a top card on its own

I think persecutor will be a top card

[Mr. Safety]

Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Empty the Warrens
Demigod of Revenge
Deus of Calamity
Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
Desperate Ritual
Pyretic Ritual


All-in-Red got through the bannings unscathed (with the possible exception of Chrome Mox, I think...) It can make up for that with a few more lands and playing both Pyretic and Desperate Ritual for some consistency.

[troopatroop]

Nacatl requires a build-around in a sense, and while I agree it will almost warp the format, I don't think it is a top card on its own

I think persecutor will be a top card

I disagree. A 3/3 for 1 is VERY far ahead in power creep, imo. Especially in an Attack + Block format.


Even in Legacy, Wild Nacatl isn't seen as the bomb that it actually is.

[Final Fortune]

Wild Nacatacl, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are the stone cold nut, considering U colored decks have the best enemy color fetch lands in the format, I think 4c aggro-control powering out undercosted green creatures backed by burn and some counters is going to be a mainstay in the format.

Cryptic Command is pretty ridiculous in anything resembling 4 Noblie Hierarch, 4 Green Sun's Zenith BANT decks and I think Cryptic Command and Vendilion Clique will be what's holding down the fort for disruption in general because Spell Snare and Mana Leak are "meh"

Inquisition of Kozilek is better than Thought Seize, by far.

[Mr. Safety]

Wild Nacatacl, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary are the stone cold nut, considering U colored decks have the best enemy color fetch lands in the format, I think 4c aggro-control powering out undercosted green creatures backed by burn and some counters is going to be a mainstay in the format.

Cryptic Command is pretty ridiculous in anything resembling 4 Noblie Hierarch, 4 Green Sun's Zenith BANT decks and I think Cryptic Command and Vendilion Clique will be what's holding down the fort for disruption in general because Spell Snare and Mana Leak are "meh"

Inquisition of Kozilek is better than Thought Seize, by far.

+1 for Vendilion Clique...probably one of the best creatures in the format, hands down, IMHO (so far...it's still brand-spankin' new)

Also, realize that Grim Lavamancer is now in this format due to M12...awesome.

[Rizso]

I can almost smell the greed in peoples mana bases and Magus of the Moon and his Blood Moon will be there to steal games! :P

Also think Ghost Quarters is gonna be great.

[SpikeyMikey]

I can almost smell the greed in peoples mana bases and Magus of the Moon and his Blood Moon will be there to steal games! :P

Also think Ghost Quarters is gonna be great.

Ish. The decks that are really tier 1 don't care, by and large. They're still good to have but the impact is smaller with the new banned list taking Hypergenesis out of the picture. Bant Stoneblade was never a deck but people played it anyway and Moon was good there too. With that gone, Moon loses some appeal.

[whienot]

Gifts Ungiven is a card that is always begging to be broken. I think there's a Gifts RUG waiting to be found. Punshing Fire, Grove, Loam, Academy Ruins, EE, Hierarch, Clique, Goyf, Lavamancer, Bolt, etc.

[crovakiet]

All the various 'hate' cards/bears :cool:

Examples:

Ethersworn Canonist
Pithing Needle
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Phyrexian Revoker
Meddling Mage
Relic of Progenitus

[brianw712]

Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt will probably be the best removal spells.

[dahcmai]

I made a list for myself of things to keep an eye on and pick up when I see them in trade folders. I only got as far as Lands and Artifacts for my list though. Those two are pretty complete lists of things you'll want for the new format.

The colors are incomplete. I'll edit it later and add more later. Those only have what I thought of off the top of my head, but it's a good start.


Lands:

Mutavault
Rav Duals obviously
The Scars of Mirrodin lands like Darkslick Shores
Filter Lands from Shadowmoor
Zendikar Fetches
Horizon Canopy
Tectonic Edge
River of Tears
Dryad Arbor
Horizon Canopy
Grove of the Burnwillows
Cloudpost
Vesuva
Bojuka Bog
Tolaria West
Celestial Collonade
Creeping Tar Pit
Emeria the Sky Ruin
Inkmoth Nexus
Murmuring Bosk
Windbrisk Heights
Academy Ruins
Flagstones of Trokair
Gemstone Mine
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Shizo Death's Storehouse



Artifacts:

Vedalken Shackles
Sword of Fire and Ice and friends
AEther Vial
Batterskull
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
Chalice of the Void
Isochron Scepter
Spellweaver Helix
Trinisphere
Plague Boiler
Sunforger
Claws of Gix
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitis
Contagion Clasp
Etched Champion
Hex Parasite
Kudotha Forgemaster
Mox Opal
Myr Battlesphere
Ratchet Bomb
Spellskite
Wurmcoil Engine

Black:
Doom Blade
Duress
Dark Confidant
Disciple of the Vault
Ad Nauseam
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Go For the Throat
Rend Flesh
Damnation
Bloodghast
Grave Titan
Extirpate and Surgical Ex


Green:
Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch
Fauna Shaman
Thrun, the Last Troll
Life from the Loam
Vengevine
Green Sun's Zenith
Tarmogoyf
Lotus Cobra
Garruk Wildspeaker
Eternal Witness
Primeval Titan
Protean Hulk
Birthing Pod


Red:
Countryside Crusher
Taurean Mauler
Tin Street Hooligan
Simian Spirit Guide
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Lightning Bolt
Blood Moon
Ancient Grudge
Magus of the Moon
Dead//Gone
Empty the Warrens
Dragonstorm
Pyroclasm
Banefire

Blue:
Cryptic Command
Ponder
Vendilion Clique
Repeal
Spell Snare
Gifts Ungiven
Jace Beleren
Threads of Disloyalty
Preordain
Sower of Temptation
Spellstutter Sprite
Spell Snare
Trinket Mage
Mystical Teachings
Thirst for Knowledge
Cursecatcher
Phyrexian Metamorph




White:
Steppe Lynx
Serra Avenger
Ranger of Eos
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Path to Exile
Oblivion Ring
Baneslayer Angel
Squadron Hawk
Mirran Crusader
Gideon Jura
Wrath of God
Reveilark
Ethersworn Canonist



Gold:
Meddling Mage
Gaddock Teeg
Trygon Predator
Bloodbraid Elf
Qasali Pridemage
Figure of Destiny
Tidehollow Sculler
Knight of the Reliquary
Kitchen Finks
Putrefy
Mortify
Lightning Helix
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Firespout
Guttural Response
Ajani Vengeant


Colorless:
Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
All is Dust

[264505]

Boom//Bust. In a format with fetches and flagstones its a stone rain for R1.

[phonics]

What are everyones thoughts on weathered wayfarer? It can do landfall tricks, fix mana, get edges/quarter/bog ect.

[menace13]

Beast Within
So far have seen Cloudpost decks use it to hit Moon effects, Equipment, creatures, and I used it in mirrors to take out opposing posts. RG/b decks using Avalanche Riders, Fulminator Mage and/or Molten Rain in conjunction with Beast W to wipe out 12 posts. Living Death uses it to hit hate cards, but seems worse than KGrip there.

[perm]

Mystical Teachings

I feel like teachings will be too slow for this format. I predict modern's speed to be just a turn or two faster than legacy, with cards of +1 CMC than legacy (4 cmc vs 3cmc)

[Final Fortune]

Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt will probably be the best removal spells.

Path to Exile is "bad" when it's not backed by Swords to Plowshares or other removal in aggro-control becuase you're forced to give them land in the early game instead of sandbagging your removal into the midgame, Dismember probably gets more play IMO.

As an aside, I think Meddling Mage is going to destroy these shitty one trick pony combo decks, you better be playing diversified threats in 12posts or you are up shit creak post-board. And for that matter, are there any 3cc counters worth a damn in this format? Because Mana Leak and Path to Exile are shit together and Cryptic Command is hard as fuck to resolve on a 4c manabase.

[(nameless one)]

Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt will probably be the best removal spells.

I feel that Dismember should be there as well

[bakofried]

Remand, possibly Rune Snag.

[SpikeyMikey]

Path to Exile is "bad" when it's not backed by Swords to Plowshares or other removal in aggro-control becuase you're forced to give them land in the early game instead of sandbagging your removal into the midgame, Dismember probably gets more play IMO.

As an aside, I think Meddling Mage is going to destroy these shitty one trick pony combo decks, you better be playing diversified threats in 12posts or you are up shit creak post-board. And for that matter, are there any 3cc counters worth a damn in this format? Because Mana Leak and Path to Exile are shit together and Cryptic Command is hard as fuck to resolve on a 4c manabase.

None of them are one trick ponies though. What do you mage against Splinter Twin? What about Hive Mind (which packs Pyromancer as well)? Persist? Turboland? Meddling Mage in an unknown format is less than thrilling.

It's a very fast format and it's not necessarily the speed of land drops that's the limiting factor for the format, meaning that PtE is usually better than Dismember. Zoo doesn't have much to do with extra lands, but they will absolutely take a free Fireblast. Ditto Jund. And combining Dismember with a 4 color mana base is pretty suicidal.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, Dismember will be a staple removal, but Path will still be king. Exiling a creature is just plain better than killing it, and paying only :w: to do it makes it good. Easily the premiere removal of the format, just like it was in extended when it was legal.

I'm not sure, but I think Ghost Quarter will probably be a lot less valuable than folks initially think. Remember that Dark Depths and Valakut are banned...which are the only really good targets for GQ. Sure there will be dual lands galore in Modern...but I'm fairly certain folks will STILL be packing basic lands, just like in any other format (and ESPECIALLY so with Path to Exile being one of the premiere removals of thee format IMHO.) The new duals (ie Drowned Catacomb) will get a lot of play alongside basics and ravnica lands (along with Shadowmoor/eventide filters like Twilight Mire) but when you don't actually stifle any tempo with Ghost Quarter, it's a hard sell to kill a non-basic land when they can just fetch the basic they need. What we need is a better Ghost Quarter (like this: destroy non-basic land. that land's controller may put a basic land from their library into play TAPPED) but I don't think that will happen now that Tectonic Edge is around...and Tectonic Edge seems bad in a fast format (which I think this will be)

I'm not really sold on Cryptic Command outside of MUC either...there are just too many cheaper counterspells at your disposal (Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Dispel, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, Remand, and to a smaller extent Spellstutter Sprite) that the mana-base would be just too damn COMPLEX. I'm not saying it won't be tried (some will want to revive 5-Color control) but I don't think it will be a top tier deck.

I may be wrong, this is just speculation. When the real data comes in, I'll be reading it up...

[Final Fortune]

I'm pretty sure fwiw that Cryptic Command is totally viable in 4c BANT when you've got Noble Hierarch and Green Sun's Zenith churning out acceleration and people being nice enough to give you a free Island off Path to Exile. The other problem is that Spell Pierce and Mana Leak are terrible with Path to Exile and the aggro-control decks wants to be casting Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary ASAP and not holding up counter mana

When I listed Meddling Mage, I meant Meddling Mage as a SB card and I'd include Gaddok Teeg in that list as well, especially since it stomps 12Post right in the nuts.

That aside, I think Bant Charm is pretty sexy as far as counters go.

[Mr. Safety]

Yep, I feel Bant Charm will be a freakin' all-star as well. Nobles make Cryptic's happen, for sure. How did I miss that?

I think that Spell Pierce will be replaced with Dispel...same cost and can potentially fill the same role. Ditto with Negate vs. Mana Leak. BUT...remember that Path to Exile brings the land into play tapped and there will still be a premium amount of 2-3 mana non-creature spells in the format that might warrent Spell Pierce. Don't count the 'little-counterspell-that-could' out yet...

Mana Leak worked just fine in extended while Path and it was legal...I'm guessing it will still find it's place in tempo oriented u/x decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Aven Mindcensor seems to break every combo deck in the format.

[KevinTrudeau]

Aven Mindcensor seems to break every combo deck in the format.

Agreed. That and Shadow of Doubt might see a lot of play in sideboards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If Shadow of Doubt becomes a format staple I think this will legitimately have to be my favorite format.

[Amon Amarth]

Aven Mindcensor seems to break every combo deck in the format.

Would that be a legitimate SB card in Zoo?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Would that be a legitimate SB card in Zoo?

I think it would required. Especially in big Zoo. In fact it's very likely to be a maindeck staple, in my opinion.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think it would required. Especially in big Zoo. In fact it's very likely to be a maindeck staple, in my opinion.
Doesn't Gaddock Teeg do most of the same thing, but cheaper?

I mean, what do we have for combo? Melira, which gets hurt by both because it runs GSZ as a tutor. There's Dragonstorm, which gets completely shut down by Teeg and severely hurt by Aven. There's Ascension, which just uses a bunch of cantrips to find stuff anyway, so it's not really hurt by either (although Aven messes with its mana a little bit). I guess Hive Mind might run that one 5U transmute creature to find Hive Mind, but meh.

Depending on how loosely you define "combo," 12Post is in, and Aven is much better against that than Teeg. However, I think Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon are better still and should be your primary line of defense there.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Doesn't Gaddock Teeg do most of the same thing, but cheaper?

I mean, what do we have for combo? Melira, which gets hurt by both because it runs GSZ as a tutor. There's Dragonstorm, which gets completely shut down by Teeg and severely hurt by Aven. There's Ascension, which just uses a bunch of cantrips to find stuff anyway, so it's not really hurt by either (although Aven messes with its mana a little bit). I guess Hive Mind might run that one 5U transmute creature to find Hive Mind, but meh.

Depending on how loosely you define "combo," 12Post is in, and Aven is much better against that than Teeg. However, I think Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon are better still and should be your primary line of defense there.

Not really. Mindcensor makes it hard to build a manabase or find answers, and hurts, for instance, Heartbeat more than Gaddock Teeg, and stops cards like Primeval Titan and Sylvan Scrying.

It also doesn't stop you from playing powerful spells.

Magus of the Moon seems fine but a different color and less versatile. But I'm sure Moon effects will end up being relevant.

[Koby]

I anticipate both Moon and Aven Mindcensor to see heavy play against the ramp/combo/GSZ decks.

Leonin Arbiter might even be acceptable against the Dragonstorm deck too, and severely slow down any fetching. Considering that Vial is legal, I fully anticipate to see this card being played in WW Vial lists, or other decks that share similar elements.

[UrDraco]

I am having a lot of fun thinking of decks but I really want to be able to search for cards and be able to sort by price ($). A list of all the (fill in blank) cards in modern sorted by price would be nice, do any of the search engines do this? I can't seem to find one.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Starcity does that, yes.

[Maveric78f]

Doesn't Gaddock Teeg do most of the same thing, but cheaper?

I mean, what do we have for combo? Melira, which gets hurt by both because it runs GSZ as a tutor. There's Dragonstorm, which gets completely shut down by Teeg and severely hurt by Aven. There's Ascension, which just uses a bunch of cantrips to find stuff anyway, so it's not really hurt by either (although Aven messes with its mana a little bit). I guess Hive Mind might run that one 5U transmute creature to find Hive Mind, but meh.

Depending on how loosely you define "combo," 12Post is in, and Aven is much better against that than Teeg. However, I think Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon are better still and should be your primary line of defense there.

I am a bit surprised by the little attention Splinter Twin is getting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am a bit surprised by the little attention Splinter Twin is getting.

Path and Pridemage are liable to be all over the place, and it's not faster than other combo.

[Maveric78f]

Path and Pridemage are liable to be all over the place, and it's not faster than other combo.

Really? What are those combo decks that can win turn 4 or 5 so reliably? Do they pack counterspells to win the mirror?

We have protection against the hates you named: bolts, pacts of negation, spellskites.

Also, artifacts and enchantments do not seem that popular in Modern (for what I have seen), I would not be surprised if Qasali was only 1 or 2-of in most GSZ builds and absent from other decks.

[Mr. Safety]

Aven Mindcensor seems to break every combo deck in the format.

It will have a serious effect on Reshape/Lotus Bloom, Gifts Ungiven, Dragonstorm, and fetchlands (obviously) and will have an abnormal (as in AWESOME) effect on Loam decks hoping to recur fetchlands and using Sakura Tribe Elder and Viridian Emissary.

Damn...looks like they'll have to unban Glimpse of Nature and Mental Misstep now (I jest...but that would be AWESOME)

[routlaw]

Splinter Twin is easily hated out if it becomes a problem deck ( by which I mean if it turns out to be better than the other resilient turn4/5 combo decks). Krosan Grip hits it like an ICBM and is a proven sideboard staple in Legacy. You can go the Kiki-Jikki route I suppose but that's slower, which means you are more likely to die to Nacatls before reliably putting it all the pieces together. If no one is playing the right hate, sure it can be good but do you really want to be the Dredge of the format?

I think Green Sun's Zenith is going to be a powerhouse for aggro decks in this format. Tarmogoyf decks in Legacy, with the exception of the strict tempo decks, have mostly all adopted the GSZ shell. There's no reason not to expect that this card won't be equally dominating in aggro decks in a format much more friendly to green beats ( though I am not sure about that, as the emasculation of control may allow combo to overgrow like a bad weed).

[Phoenix Ignition]

I am a bit surprised by the little attention Splinter Twin is getting.

When a deck is blown out by "response, path it" then it makes sense. Even in your primer you say "I don't have much to say about the deck since I've only played it 10 times or so", how can you claim it's amazing when you haven't tested nearly any of its matchups? It seems like a fun deck and all, but it is not even clearly in the top tier of what can be played. There are other combo decks that aren't creature dependent.

[SpikeyMikey]

Splinter Twin is easily hated out if it becomes a problem deck ( by which I mean if it turns out to be better than the other resilient turn4/5 combo decks). Krosan Grip hits it like an ICBM and is a proven sideboard staple in Legacy. You can go the Kiki-Jikki route I suppose but that's slower, which means you are more likely to die to Nacatls before reliably putting it all the pieces together. If no one is playing the right hate, sure it can be good but do you really want to be the Dredge of the format?

I think Green Sun's Zenith is going to be a powerhouse for aggro decks in this format. Tarmogoyf decks in Legacy, with the exception of the strict tempo decks, have mostly all adopted the GSZ shell. There's no reason not to expect that this card won't be equally dominating in aggro decks in a format much more friendly to green beats ( though I am not sure about that, as the emasculation of control may allow combo to overgrow like a bad weed).

So the end of your turn 3, they cast Pestermite and tap down one of your lands. They untap and now you have 2 mana and Krosan Grip. Congratulations. Plus, they've got 6-8 pieces of each side of their combo (and 8-12 dig spells) and you have 4 Grips max and still need to have some sort of game plan beyond that.


Maveric: There are a plethora of combo decks that win consistently on turn 4 or 5. Hive Mind will do that. It has counters. Persist will do that. It has discard. Turbo Land will do that, although it doesn't pack any disruption. It is difficult to hate out however without dedicating cards specifically to that matchup. All in Red isn't a combo deck per se, but I did drop an EtW for 16 tokens on turn 1 on someone the night before last which is pretty combo-tastic. Don't get me wrong, I think Twin is a tier 1 deck, but it's not the only consistent turn 4 combo deck. And there are probably a few more out there that I don't know about.

[(nameless one)]

Which one would be better in this format: Ratchet Bomb or Chalice of the Void? I find that outside of All In Red decks, you cannot consistently power out a turn 1 Chalice at 1. While Chalice at 1 is excellent in stoping a lot of removal and cantrip spells, Ratchet Bomb catches things that goes through the early turns but you run the risk of your opponents dealing with your pieces, whether it'd be removal or cantrip to find removal itself.

Is anyone trying to run a deck that faces the same dilemma?

Also, I feel that Spellskite will be the sleeper of the format. It can protect combo pieces no problem and is a decent blocker by itself.

[Maveric78f]

Since my primer I've played it quite a few times (50 games I'd say). Believe it or not, we have reliable ways to protect from those "in response".

Think about all those decks (who said Dragonstorm ?) who are completely helpless against Vendilion Clique?

Every deck is going to have a weakness. Still, Krosan Grip is hardly an answer in zoo. It does not do 2 for 1 and it requires basically 4 manas open since twiddle guy is going to tap one land.

[Mr. Safety]

@(nameless one) 3 and 4 color decks will be rampant without Wasteland, so I think the premier 2-for-1 will be Explosives.

Short answer: play both! Ratchet Bomb AND Chalice. I think you're right about non-red decks and Chalice though...probably won't happen until better acceleration gets printed (or someone finds a hidden gem...but that is unlikely, given the experience level represented on mtgthesource alone it should have popped up by now...)

[Mr. Safety]

Since my primer I've played it quite a few times (50 games I'd say). Believe it or not, we have reliable ways to protect from those "in response".

Think about all those decks (who said Dragonstorm ?) who are completely helpless against Vendilion Clique?

Every deck is going to have a weakness. Still, Krosan Grip is hardly an answer in zoo. It does not do 2 for 1 and it requires basically 4 manas open since twiddle guy is going to tap one land.

You're right...OH WAIT! They are probably playing maindeck Pridemages... :frown:

[Maveric78f]

Oh Wait ! I play Lightning Bolt and also Spellskite misdirects that.

I begin to understand why you show little interest. It's simply because you don't know how it works.

[Mr. Safety]

Krosan Grip IS an answer in zoo...because the combination of 8 answers to your combo will give them better odds against you. If they find it too cumbersome, they will switch over to Natures Claim, Naturalize, Disenchant, or Gleeful Sabotage. Spell Snare hits Gleeful Sabotage's first copy, but the second copy (after tapping down a Nacatl and Ape to copy it) will get through unscathed. Grips will deal with Spellskite, opening up Pridemage to take care of Splinter Twin.

What I am saying is this: they already have 4 maindeck hates against you game one. Game 2, they will most likely have 8, and they can race you anyways. It won't be as easy as you think to beat zoo. (I haven't even touched on Phyrexian Revoker yet...which will get plenty of play, as well as Pithing Needle) I myself will most likely be playing 2-3 Revokers alongside 2-3 Nature's Claim in my zoo sideboard.

How do folks feel about Evil Presence and Spreading Seas as land disruption elements in Modern?

[SpikeyMikey]

It's hard to take someone seriously when they say '4 manas open'. Four mana in your mana pool or 4 untapped lands makes sense. 'Manas' isn't even a word.

Krosan Grip IS an answer in zoo...because the combination of 8 answers to your combo will give them better odds against you. If they find it too cumbersome, they will switch over to Natures Claim, Naturalize, Disenchant, or Gleeful Sabotage. Spell Snare hits Gleeful Sabotage's first copy, but the second copy (after tapping down a Nacatl and Ape to copy it) will get through unscathed. Grips will deal with Spellskite, opening up Pridemage to take care of Splinter Twin.

What I am saying is this: they already have 4 maindeck hates against you game one. Game 2, they will most likely have 8, and they can race you anyways. It won't be as easy as you think to beat zoo. (I haven't even touched on Phyrexian Revoker yet...which will get plenty of play, as well as Pithing Needle) I myself will most likely be playing 2-3 Revokers alongside 2-3 Nature's Claim in my zoo sideboard.

How do folks feel about Evil Presence and Spreading Seas as land disruption elements in Modern?

The guy's from France, meaning he's not a native English speaker. You can tell from reading his posts that he's either not completely fluent or is using a translator service. So cut him some slack on "manas".

Just having 4 Pridemages and some burn spells isn't going to cut it. I mean, you have to remember this deck is going to go off the first time on turn 4 just about every game. Because turns 1/2 can be spent cantripping to find anything missing. If it looks like you might have an answer, they'll just drop Spellskite or wait until they have an extra mana for Spell Pierce. In the mean time, you have to leave mana up at all times because any time you tap out, they can drop their creature and go the next turn. Try playing Zoo while leaving 1RR up every turn so that you can double bolt or bolt/'mancer a Deceiver Exarch if necessary. Or 1WRR for Bolt/Helix. You need to maintain an appreciable clock because Pridemage and Grip don't do a thing about Kiki-Jiki and if you're not clocking them, they can just wait until they've got the Spellskite to protect it and just go off that way. And Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch make pretty solid pseudo-fogs. Believe me, Splinter Twin is a tier 1 deck and if you want to beat it, you need to do more than run some targeted removal. They're expecting that.

[Mr. Safety]

The guy's from France, meaning he's not a native English speaker. You can tell from reading his posts that he's either not completely fluent or is using a translator service. So cut him some slack on "manas".


Crap, I'm such an asshole.

I apologize Maveric78f.

[Mr. Safety]

Just having 4 Pridemages and some burn spells isn't going to cut it. I mean, you have to remember this deck is going to go off the first time on turn 4 just about every game. Because turns 1/2 can be spent cantripping to find anything missing. If it looks like you might have an answer, they'll just drop Spellskite or wait until they have an extra mana for Spell Pierce. In the mean time, you have to leave mana up at all times because any time you tap out, they can drop their creature and go the next turn. Try playing Zoo while leaving 1RR up every turn so that you can double bolt or bolt/'mancer a Deceiver Exarch if necessary. Or 1WRR for Bolt/Helix. You need to maintain an appreciable clock because Pridemage and Grip don't do a thing about Kiki-Jiki and if you're not clocking them, they can just wait until they've got the Spellskite to protect it and just go off that way. And Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch make pretty solid pseudo-fogs. Believe me, Splinter Twin is a tier 1 deck and if you want to beat it, you need to do more than run some targeted removal. They're expecting that.

Hence the Revokrs and Nature's Claim...that would give me 10 hates (including 4 maindeck Pridemages) and a decent clock. I just need to stick 1-2 threats and ride them long enough to burn them out.

I feel that zoo has enough weapons to at least be on par with the matchup. Path/Bolt/Helix in response to Splinter Twin (which they have to do on a MINIMUM of turn 5 with Spell Pierce/Dispel backup), Nature's Claim and Revoker in the sideboard, Pridemages maindeck.

The blue decks will be sideboarding Echoing Truth, which should work fine against Splinter Twin. They would then lose Splinter Twin, have to replay Deciever/Pestermite (and you can counter it or kill it) and then wait another turn in order to even play another Splinter Twin (and that's if you don't need to dig for it.) If they are in blue, they should have Dispel, Spell Snare, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce available to protect the Echoing Truth...or the obvious answer of Cryptic Command (which will be a powerhouse as you know.) The fact that Splinter Twin doesn't come online until turn 4 is relevant, because of Cryptic Command and the other cheap counters being available.

That's my take...

EDIT: Oh yeah! Burning-Tree Shaman. Go ahead and make a ton of Exarchs/Pestermites. I'll happily let BTS kill you on the spot.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm aware of BTS. In fact, I suggested it in the RG Hate thread. But they don't need infinite tokens to kill you. They need 9 (assuming you haven't taken any damage from your mana base). So 9 damage out of BTS, which is significant, but only works if you've already clocked them for 11. Suppression Field is better as it stops them from comboing off period, as they cannot generate enough mana to win through it.

Yes, you can beat Splinter Twin with Zoo. I'm not saying you can't. Splinter Twin isn't some magical unbeatable boogeyman. I'd say it's the 3rd or 4th best deck in the format after GreenPost, All in Red and maybe Jund. But I'm saying it's not a great matchup like people were saying above. You can't just say "I've got 4 Pridemages, so I win." That's not how it works. I mean, you're devoting 6 cards to this matchup just to get a little parity. Revoker is hardly an issue for the deck since it's a craps shoot whether you name the right creature or not (Exarch? Pestermite? Kiki-Jiki? You've got a 1/3 chance of Revoker being relevant) so you're basically just backing up Pridemage with Nature's Claim. But even if you're bringing in BTS and Claim, how much board space do you have to devote to 12Post now? Hive Mind? The mirror? Because none of those cards are relevant in those matchups. None of them care about artifact/enchantment removal (Hive Mind just kills you right away, you don't have priority at any time to avoid getting a Pact trigger). It's not Faeries.format where enchantment removal is always useful for the Bitterblossoms.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Really? What are those combo decks that can win turn 4 or 5 so reliably?

- Dragonstorm
- Heartbeat
- Tooth and Nail

I mean I feel like I'm forgetting a bunch here and I'm sure more will be discovered. A turn 4-5 combo deck in a format with six coresets and eight (soon to be nine) blocks isn't that impressive.


- Do they pack counterspells to win the mirror?

Or other things that fuck with you, and various forms of disruption/protection/redundancy, yes.


We have protection against the hates you named: bolts, pacts of negation, spellskites.

A better protection would be not needing protection against Path to Exile and Pridemage at all.


Also, artifacts and enchantments do not seem that popular in Modern (for what I have seen), I would not be surprised if Qasali was only 1 or 2-of in most GSZ builds and absent from other decks.

I would, he's a perfectly efficient beater and he solves lots of problems that are likely to come up. Solves Blood Moon also, wins Goyf Wars; there's not a lot to argue against making Pridemage a 4x. Expensive toys that are worth breaking a Pridemage on seem liable to be more common in Modern due to its higher mana curve/slower base turn, not less.

[Maveric78f]

Thanks SpikeyMikey for the argumentation. I would agree with you if you did not mention 12-Post and All-in-red as top decks. All in red kills are not impressive, but maybe my few (5 more or so) games against it were not representative. 12posts no disruption and by the time it wins all the combo decks would have already finished the game.


You can tell from reading his posts that he's either not completely fluent or is using a translator service.
This hurts my feelings a lot more than the remark on "manas". I definitely consider I'm fluent. Not bilingual, but fluent without any doubt. I should probably have taken more time on my posts lately. Sorry for that.

[menace13]

- Dragonstorm
- Heartbeat
- Tooth and Nail

I mean I feel like I'm forgetting a bunch here and I'm sure more will be discovered. A turn 4-5 combo deck in a format with six coresets and eight (soon to be nine) blocks isn't that impressive.
.

Turn 3 can also include Eggless Eggs, Restore Balance and Living Death.

[dahcmai]

Don't forget Melira either. There's quite a few. Turn 4 seems to be the sweet spot for combo decks. I keep thinking there's a turn 3 one, but I can't remember why I thought that.

[Maveric78f]

Melira looks good, it relies on a single creature, but GSZ and pod make it easy to assemble. For the other combo decks (besides Splinter Twin obviously), I'm waiting to see a exciting list, but for the moment they seem to be relying on a single card (*4) in a 60 cards deck without any tutor.

[Malchar]

How do folks feel about Evil Presence and Spreading Seas as land disruption elements in Modern?

Despite how much I want these to be good, they get substantially worse in a format where 4 color decks are common. If you use both enchantments, then against a 4 color deck at least one of them is completely dead. It might work if you combined it with tectonic edge or some other wasteland replacement. In fact, there is quite a nice synergy with tec edge.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm aware of BTS. In fact, I suggested it in the RG Hate thread. But they don't need infinite tokens to kill you. They need 9 (assuming you haven't taken any damage from your mana base). So 9 damage out of BTS, which is significant, but only works if you've already clocked them for 11. Suppression Field is better as it stops them from comboing off period, as they cannot generate enough mana to win through it.

Yes, you can beat Splinter Twin with Zoo. I'm not saying you can't. Splinter Twin isn't some magical unbeatable boogeyman. I'd say it's the 3rd or 4th best deck in the format after GreenPost, All in Red and maybe Jund. But I'm saying it's not a great matchup like people were saying above. You can't just say "I've got 4 Pridemages, so I win." That's not how it works. I mean, you're devoting 6 cards to this matchup just to get a little parity. Revoker is hardly an issue for the deck since it's a craps shoot whether you name the right creature or not (Exarch? Pestermite? Kiki-Jiki? You've got a 1/3 chance of Revoker being relevant) so you're basically just backing up Pridemage with Nature's Claim. But even if you're bringing in BTS and Claim, how much board space do you have to devote to 12Post now? Hive Mind? The mirror? Because none of those cards are relevant in those matchups. None of them care about artifact/enchantment removal (Hive Mind just kills you right away, you don't have priority at any time to avoid getting a Pact trigger). It's not Faeries.format where enchantment removal is always useful for the Bitterblossoms.

I didin't say 'I've got 4 Pridemages, I win'...I'm just saying you have a matchup where you KNOW you'll be facing 4 maindeck hates game 1. That's all.

The comment on Revoker/Needle was intended to mean this: you're going to need layered hate to beat this deck (I think we can agree on that...I think we may actually be agreeing and not realize it) so I'm saying game 1, zoo needs to pick off something with Pridemage, hopefully buying enough time to attack/burn FTW. Game 2, in comes the layered hate to increase odds. That's all I mean. I think zoo has decent odds against this combo deck, that's all I meant. Possibly 40/60 game one and increased to 50/50 or even slightly better game 2.

[SpikeyMikey]

Thanks SpikeyMikey for the argumentation. I would agree with you if you did not mention 12-Post and All-in-red as top decks. All in red kills are not impressive, but maybe my few (5 more or so) games against it were not representative. 12posts no disruption and by the time it wins all the combo decks would have already finished the game.


This hurts my feelings a lot more than the remark on "manas". I definitely consider I'm fluent. Not bilingual, but fluent without any doubt. I should probably have taken more time on my posts lately. Sorry for that.

I think it's a matter of semantics. Your English is very good (signficantly better than my French - je ne parle pas Francais!) but I found it noticeable that you're not a native speaker. Just the way you phrase things sometimes. I noticed a week or two ago while reading on of your posts, which is why I looked and saw that you were French. I would consider bilingual to mean speaking two languages while being fluent in two languages as being a master of both; in essence speaking like a native in two tongues. I apologize that what I said hurt your feelings, it wasn't intended to.

Persist combo (and I call it this because it's not just Melira, Juniper Order Ranger works just as well) is a fairly consistent turn 4-5 deck but it's far more vulnerable to Zoo than Splinter Twin or Hive Mind which is why I consider it a tier 2 deck at the moment. It's out there, it's consistent, it's competitive and it's potentially faster than Splinter Twin (turn 1 Viscera Seer, turn 2 Melira, turn 3 Kitchen Finks) but it loses badly to a very popular deck.

Hive Mind can be as consistent as Splinter Twin only because it can also pack Pyromancer's Ascension; the dig for the first combo serves as the engine for the second. However, doing so forces them to run a truncated acceleration package, thus removing the possibility of turn 2/3 wins. So you can either play it as Belcher-lite or as a kind of NO Show.

Turbo Land is also a turn 4/5 combo. I haven't played with it yet, but Iron Blood here has it built and I lost 2 straight matches to him with 12Post, it was pretty brutal.

All in Red really only loses to its own bad draws. A good draw out of AiR is tough to beat. You have to guess exactly what hate you need to win with. Deus of Calamity? Better have Path to Exile. Empty the Warrens? Hope you have Echoing Truth/Decay. Koth of the Hammer? Need some fast creatures. Combine that with half a dozen Moon effects and you've got a deck that nobody in the format *wants* to play against.

I'm running Beast Within in my 12Post, so it's got better game against combo than most 12Post decks, but I will agree that combo is a weak point for the deck. Ironic, since prior to the ban of Hypergenesis, 12Post was the best deck to have against combo. But with Hypergenesis gone, other combo decks that were suppressed by the faster Hyper decks are emerging and it's getting difficult for 12Post to beat them pre-board. I'm splashing white right now for postboard options with Suppression Field and Angel's Grace.

[Maveric78f]

I think it's a matter of semantics. Your English is very good (signficantly better than my French - je ne parle pas Francais!) but I found it noticeable that you're not a native speaker. Just the way you phrase things sometimes. I noticed a week or two ago while reading on of your posts, which is why I looked and saw that you were French. I would consider bilingual to mean speaking two languages while being fluent in two languages as being a master of both; in essence speaking like a native in two tongues. I apologize that what I said hurt your feelings, it wasn't intended to.
Ok. No problem. I don't pretend to hide my frenchness (I know it's not a word). Fluent means I read/write/speak (almost) as fast as if I was native speaker. Non bilingual means that I do idiomatic, syntactic and semantic mistake regularly.


Persist combo (and I call it this because it's not just Melira, Juniper Order Ranger works just as well) is a fairly consistent turn 4-5 deck but it's far more vulnerable to Zoo than Splinter Twin or Hive Mind which is why I consider it a tier 2 deck at the moment. It's out there, it's consistent, it's competitive and it's potentially faster than Splinter Twin (turn 1 Viscera Seer, turn 2 Melira, turn 3 Kitchen Finks) but it loses badly to a very popular deck.
Or even kill for real: T1 GSZ/birds, T2 Viscera + Melira, T3 Redcap


Hive Mind can be as consistent as Splinter Twin only because it can also pack Pyromancer's Ascension; the dig for the first combo serves as the engine for the second. However, doing so forces them to run a truncated acceleration package, thus removing the possibility of turn 2/3 wins. So you can either play it as Belcher-lite or as a kind of NO Show.
I don't know the Pyromancer Ascension version. I'd be insterested in a link.


Turbo Land is also a turn 4/5 combo. I haven't played with it yet, but Iron Blood here has it built and I lost 2 straight matches to him with 12Post, it was pretty brutal.
What is turbo land? I thought you guys did use this name for everything that is trying to mana ramp into Eldrazi/TnN.


All in Red really only loses to its own bad draws. A good draw out of AiR is tough to beat. You have to guess exactly what hate you need to win with. Deus of Calamity? Better have Path to Exile. Empty the Warrens? Hope you have Echoing Truth/Decay. Koth of the Hammer? Need some fast creatures. Combine that with half a dozen Moon effects and you've got a deck that nobody in the format *wants* to play against.
Maybe I was very lucky playing against them but it never did anything against me, even though I have no answer to a turn 1 Deus. I can remember 2 games:
1/ I start, play forest+GSZ on dryad.
His turn: Starting from SSG, he plays Magus and Koth without any land.
My turn 2, I land a random fetch, I bolt Magus and I attack Koth. 2 turn later, Koth died. And he died soon after.
2/ He starts and plays Deus off his hand.
I play a fetch. (I play Splinter Twin this time)
He attacks, I fetch in resp to the trigger.
I play a land, and I play Spellskite
He attacks, I chump block with Spellskite.
I cantrip once or twice and do not miss my land drop.
He attacks and kill one land.
I play a land and pass.
I tap the deus before it can attack. He plays EtW for 6 or 8 goblins.
I play a land, Splinter Cell and win from here.


I'm running Beast Within in my 12Post, so it's got better game against combo than most 12Post decks, but I will agree that combo is a weak point for the deck. Ironic, since prior to the ban of Hypergenesis, 12Post was the best deck to have against combo. But with Hypergenesis gone, other combo decks that were suppressed by the faster Hyper decks are emerging and it's getting difficult for 12Post to beat them pre-board. I'm splashing white right now for postboard options with Suppression Field and Angel's Grace.
Then I should probably keep Magus in my SB...

[Finn]

I think the meaning of Turboland has shifted some. It's original designation was a blue-green deck with Horn of Greed and, yep, lands. It is right up there with Solidarity and prison decks for painful matchups if you are the poor soul playing midrange aggro against it.

These days it sure does seem to be tossed around with more generic meaning.

Also, top cards for modern, in case it has not been said, are the Rav block shockers and Zen fetchies. I have to wonder if WOTC is going to have to reprint the Onslaught fetchies. I mean, they kinda have to, right?

[bakofried]

Along with Rav shocklands. 35 dollars for a Watery Grave? Really? The whole point was to have a sustainable eternal format, so they better maintain it.

*I realize 35 ain't that much compared to legacy staples lately, but the price of legacy staples should in no way be some kind of benchmark.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Shocklands are being overvalued right now. They're not strictly better than other multicolor lands in Modern the way that the original duals are in Legacy. Filterlands, painlands, even karoolands in the absence of Wasteland are all viable options. The Alara trilands and vivid lands are also playable in 3+ color decks. Those would be what I would pick up right now, the price of the filters in particular are bound to go up.

Outside of a very aggro Zoo list there's no good reason to put more than 4-6 fetchlands or 4-6 duals in your deck; a manabase that starts you out at 18 life is a Hell of a difference from one that starts you out at 14.

[SpikeyMikey]

I think the meaning of Turboland has shifted some. It's original designation was a blue-green deck with Horn of Greed and, yep, lands. It is right up there with Solidarity and prison decks for painful matchups if you are the poor soul playing midrange aggro against it.

These days it sure does seem to be tossed around with more generic meaning.

Also, top cards for modern, in case it has not been said, are the Rav block shockers and Zen fetchies. I have to wonder if WOTC is going to have to reprint the Onslaught fetchies. I mean, they kinda have to, right?

That's pretty much what this is though. It doesn't have Horn the way the original turbo land does, but it still revolves around Time Warp. Only now there's Walk the Aeons too which lets you go infinite with Crucible and a couple of extra land drops a turn. One Azusa is enough or a pair of Rites of Flourishing or Oracle of Mul Daya. I've tweaked Iron_Blood's original listing and I'm running GSZ and Gifts packages now.

[dahcmai]

I know I'll be playing just about every manland I can jam in a deck just due to the fact tec Edge and Ghost Quarter aren't real good at keeping them in check.

[perm]

This has probably been mentioned, but I think spellstutter sprite is going to be a big deal. Especially since it is the only free counter in the format (combined with vial)

[whienot]

This has probably been mentioned, but I think spellstutter sprite is going to be a big deal. Especially since it is the only free counter in the format (combined with vial)

There are other free counters, and just as conditional.

Disrupting Shoal
Mindbreak Trap

[Mr. Safety]

Shocklands are being overvalued right now. They're not strictly better than other multicolor lands in Modern the way that the original duals are in Legacy. Filterlands, painlands, even karoolands in the absence of Wasteland are all viable options. The Alara trilands and vivid lands are also playable in 3+ color decks. Those would be what I would pick up right now, the price of the filters in particular are bound to go up.

Outside of a very aggro Zoo list there's no good reason to put more than 4-6 fetchlands or 4-6 duals in your deck; a manabase that starts you out at 18 life is a Hell of a difference from one that starts you out at 14.

+1

I'm using 6 fetchlands, 4 Shocklands, 3 Filters, and basics. If I get a filter land or shockland in hand my fetches end up getting basics to fill the 3rd color I need, saving me from starting at 14 life and instead starting at 17-19.

Decks using Kitchen Finks will be good. Decks using Aven Riftwatcher will be good. Decks trying to have a greedy-shock-based 3-4 color mana base without lifegain will not be good. Easy prey for the aggro/combo oriented metagame ATM.

[perm]

There are other free counters, and just as conditional.

Disrupting Shoal
Mindbreak Trap

Disrupting shoal is far more conditional and has a far bigger penalty.... and completely unplayable.

Mindbreak trap is only reliable vs storm. I mean a free counter where you are completely in control of when it is usable.

[SpikeyMikey]

+1

I'm using 6 fetchlands, 4 Shocklands, 2 Filters, and basics. If I get a filter land or shockland in hand my fetches end up getting basics to fill the 3rd color I need, saving me from starting at 14 life and instead starting at 17-19.

Decks using Kitchen Finks will be good. Decks using Aven Riftwatcher will be good. Decks trying to have a greedy-shock-based 3-4 color mana base without lifegain will not be good. Easy prey for the aggro/combo oriented metagame ATM.

Actually, the loss irrelevant against combo. I mean, let's be honest. Either you're getting Twinned or you're not. You're getting Hellkited or you're not. You're getting Melira'd or you're not. You're losing to Pact or you're not. There is no, ooh, I'm kind of low unless you're in bolt range.

[Mr. Safety]

The combo matchup is irrelivant, yes...but the aggro matchup IS NOT. Don't forget Second Sunrise in that combo list...pretty competitive, and All In Red.