[Deck] Splinter Twin

[Maveric78f]

The combo
Pestermite / Deceiver Exarch
.............. +
Splinter Twin / Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

You play a Twiddle guy and after that you play a way to copy it. Each time you copy it, you can untap the copier and copy it again. In the end you can generate an infinity (more precisely, a number as high as wanted) of haste copies that can therefore attack for the win. The small difference between Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki is the fact the twiddle guy should not be summon sick with Splinter Twin. It is somehow a pity, because you could play both with 6 lands on your turn (the twiddle guy could untap 1 land). The all-in-one-turn strategy works only with 7 lands in play.

Properties of the combo, compared to the state of the art combo decks in Modern
There are some combo decks such as Heartbeat of Spring, Eggless omelet, Pyromancer Ascension that I don't know well and thus did not include into the comparison. The omelet should be fast but completely unprotected, because relying on a full deck mechanism. The others also rely on a full deck mechanism, but this mechanism revolves around cantrips and protection, so that it should not be a real problem. However, they look very dependent on a specific enchantment that must remain in play several turns. All-in-red was also removed from the bench because it's not really combo, it often behaves more like an aggro prison.

Splinter Twin is a 2 card combo. If you compare it to other combo decks currently present in modern, you have Dragonstorm, Tooth and Nail and Enduring Ideal which are 1-card combo decks. All have a so high CC, that it can be considered easily as a 2-card or 3-card combo decks, the 2nd and 3rd cards being mana ramp. As a 1-card combo deck, there is also Living End[/card]. This can be considered as the only real 1-card combo deck. Among 2-card combo decks, besides Splinter Twin, there is Hive Mind, which has also a quite high CC and thus probably require some mana ramp, making it 3-card combo (even if it is not completely necessary in theory, it is in practice). Finally, there is a 3-card combo deck based on a sacrifice outlet, a persist guy with a CitB effect and Melira, Sylvok Outcast.

Regarding the mana cost, once more the Living end combo deck is virtually the best with a cost or 3CC for the combo, but to have it played effectively, you need first to put some creatures to the grave, generally between 3 and 5, which costs as least as much mana. As a conclusion for this deck, we can say that it will cost around 8/9 mana, but with a perfect curve, meaning that it can go off on turn 4 very effectively. Hive mind is 6 CC, but it has to be paid at once. The other combos are all between 7 and 9CC including the Splinter Twin combo: 7 or 8 CC, curving perfectly. Moreover, as the 3CC part is instant speed, it's possible (and recommended) to avoid sorcery speed disruption by flashing your twiddle guy at the end of the opponent's step. Then, on your turn you untap and play the other part of the combo. Melira is 6CC for infinite life and 7CC for infinite damage, but the fact it relies on 3 cards make it generally more expensive to assemble the combo. The other combo decks rely on resolving a very high CC spell thanks to mana acceleration. The presence or not of several mana accelerators makes these decks randomly faster or slower than Melira, Living End, Hive Mind or Splinter Twin which all consistently combo on turn 4 or 5 (3 in some rare cases).

Compared to the other decks, Splinter Twin, Melira and Living End have a great advantage: the redundancy. All the combo elements of Melira can be tutored with either [cards]Green Sun's Zenith or Birthing Pod. Also, besides Melira, all the combo elements can be replaced by another one (there are several sacrifice outlets and persist guys). Living End revolves around resolving a 3CC cascade spell which will tutor and play the killer card: Living End. There are several of them. Splinter Twin is redundant in the straightforward meaning of redundancy: each role of the combo can be played by 2 different modern-legal cards. All the other combos are relying a spell that cannot be tutored or played efficiently and even less resolved with 100% success.

The impact on the deck is quite light with the Splinter Twin combo. Indeed, the twiddle guys are good tempo/control elements: preventing a creature to attack, tapping the just resolved Lotus Bloom at upkeep, tapping a land at end of opponent's turn, ... The other part of the combo is useless though, except for winning, but I found that the number of them could be reduced to 6 (4 Splinter Twin and 2 Kiki Jiki). Exarch is also a good blocker, especially against zoo. Melira has also a lot of good chumpblockers, that can even sustain a fair aggro game plan, but the combo takes a lot of slots (12-20 + the tutors: 4-7). Living End has to be built around the cascade constraint, it has therefore very low control elements. The whole deck is devoted to the combo. This is its weakness. Dragonstorm and Tooth and Nails have basically no control elements in the combo but their combo slots are quite reduced (8-10 for Dragonstorm and 6-8 for Tooth and Nail). However, the mana accelerators constitute also a big part of the deck. Regarding Enduring Ideal, the enchantments to tutor can be directly played without Enduring Ideal, so that the "combo" part takes only 4 slots. Still the mana accelerators might take up to 12 slots (and they are usually for 1 use only).

Blue is obviously the best color for a combo deck. It enables to play cantrips (Ponder, Preordain), some permission (Spell Pierce, Remand) and universal bounces (Into the Roil, Repeal). Red is also quite insteresting for handling the hate bears (Lightning Bolt) and to gain some time against aggro (Firespout). Black's discard is also efficient at scrying and removing the annoyance. So far, in Modern almost all combo decks chose to splash U, sometimes only for the cantrips, sometimes also for protection. More rarely for bounces because another splashed color was more efficient at dealing with creatures and the non-creature kind of hate in not really impressive.

Splinter Twin is a combo with an immediate infinite damage kill. It's kind of the same for Hive Mind. Dragonstorm is also immediate but not infinite (but it can be dealing 40+ damages on the big turn and 25 more every next turn). Melira can also be an immediate infinite kill, but generally, it will first gain infinite life and try to finish the combo later. On this level, Living End is really inferior: it does wrath the board, and put in play 4/5 evasive creatures, but it still needs 2 to 3 more turns to win. Eventually, the time to kill of living end is the slower. Tooth and Nail does not kill right away in general: even if Kiki+Blightsteel Colossus or kiki+exarch might perform infinite kill, generally, the conservative approach consists of putting into play 2 big Eldrazis, which are much more difficult to get rid of. Finally, Enduring Ideal is a (fragile) prison. It will need 4 or 5 more turns to kill.

Regarding the resilience of the combo, Splinter Twin is both easy to slow down and hard to shut down. Indeed, almost every deck pack instant anti-creature spells and/or anti-enchantments. But, there are plenty of answers against this kind of response in Modern and the hate bears/cards are quite ineffective against the combo thanks to its redundancy:
- Meddling Mage: will generally name Splinter Twin but it does not prevent Kiki-Jiki. The same is true with Gaddock Teeg.
- Phyrexian Revoker: even more difficult, because it can name Exarch, Pestermite or Kiki-Jiki. It's dangerous with a vial though.
- Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Arbiter: problematic with our fetches, like every other deck, but not a problem at all besides that.
- Magus of the Moon: really not a problem if not played turn 1. In my build, I always fetch an island first.
- Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void: our key cards are 3CC and more.
- Ethersworn Canonist: completely ineffective against the combo.
- anti-graveyard: the combo once more does not rely at all on the graveyard.

Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison are shutting down the combo though. Burning-Tree Shaman is quite difficult to overcome too. Still, I've never seen them until now. They're probably not that good in other match-ups.

The list

The combo: 14
4 Splinter Twin
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch

The manipulation: 8
4 Preordain
4 Ponder

The control/protection: 17
4 Spell Pierce
4 Spellskite
3 Remand
2 Pact of Negation
4 Lightning Bolt

The lands: 21
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Cascade Bluffs

The sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 Firespout
SB: 3 Mystical Teachings
SB: 1 Overgrown Tomb
SB: 1 Back to Nature
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Into the Roil

The match-ups

Here is how I play it against aggro by order of decreasing priority (you should not miss a land drop during the 4 first turns):
Turn 1: cantrip/spell pierce
Turn 2: either (cantrip+pierce)/spellskite/remand
Turn 3: If you already have Spellskite in play and the combo, try it. If you have the combo but no spellskite, hope that your opponent is going to fulltap. If he does not, you should probably wait one more turn.
Turn 4: Cantrip and wait again for opponent's mistake or Spellskite + wait with remand.
Usually, by turn 5, you should be able to win (or fizzle). Post SB with firespouts, you're really not that much on a clock, but you also have to know they will play a lot of hate bears. Force him to overextend with Exarch and Spellskite.
Post SB, enter Firespouts for Remand (2 manas is too expensive in this MU) and 1 Spell Pierce (or Pestermite).

Against control, you can't expect him to full tap , the game plan is basically to play 1 or 2 spellskites, and develop your manabase. At some point in the game, you will flash a creature at end of turn, you'd better do it when you have 2 copiers (or 1 copier and a lot of cantrips in hand and lands in play) in your hand because Vendilion Clique might come in to disrupt you). If you can resolve it, you probably have won thanks to the spellskite(s) in play. If you can't, try again the turn after. In these control decks, they generally play a lot of 4CC spells, such as planeswalkers, Wrath of God or Cryptic Command. These cards are probably dead in this MU because as soon as they play one of these cards, you have room to combo. There are no free counterspells in Modern (except the pacts and you are the one who is playing them).
Post SB, enter Mystical Teaching with all the 1-of instead of lightning bolts (sometimes, I keep 1 to be tutored with teaching just in case) and Remand.

Against other combo decks, you have the advantage of being able to start comboing in instant, you play 7 effective counters against them. Against non-blue combo decks, such as Melira, Tooth and Nail, Dragonstorm or Enduring Ideal, you can just dig to find countermagic and wait until you draw into the combo. Once Tooth and Nail plays an Eldrazi or Tooth and Nail, just bolt Kiki or tap the annoying fattie with your twiddle guy and win the turn after. If you can go off before, please help yourself. Against Hive Mind it's a bit more complicated, but generally, they don't play a lot of countermagic that can be played during the opponent's turn. You will need to find your own pacts in order to to combo soon enough with protection.
Post SB, enter Mystical Teaching with all the 1-of (well it depends on the exact combo), instead of bolts and spellskites.

Maybe it's a mistake, but currently, I enter Magus of the moon regardless of the kind of MU we face, just in accordance with the mana base. Actually, I don't enter it much, and I should probably change SB strategy since 12-post is already very easy.

[Maveric78f]

Reserved.

[Philipp2293]

Sad, but I have to say that Flusterstorm is not modern legal. I have also found Blood Moon to be a potent tool against certain control decks. Also, I don't know how popular it's going to be, but I'd like to have Repeal somewhere to deal with MWCs Ghostly Prison and some other stuff (e.g. Revoker/Needle if he hits the combo piece you have in your hand)

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Remand definitely looks like it deserves a spot here. Possibly over Condescend? Drawing a card seems better than scrying in a deck that just needs an extra turn or two to drop lands

[Fuzzy]

Not running Filter Lands when you need triple red mana for Kikki seems wrong.

[Maveric78f]

Thx for your helps. As you can see, I start from scratch. According to me, it looks like the best combo for Modern on the source at this moment. It's redundant, in blue and does not rely on resolving a spell that is 6CC or more. Also the Flash-Twiddle guys are really useful for stalling.

Philipp: Flusterstorm won't miss
Jeff: Remand is a possibility instead of Condescend. It needs testing to decide because they really do different things.
Fuzzy: Can you be more specific? Because I'm very bad in T2 and I hardly know a land that is neither a fetch, a dual or a wasteland.

Also Spellskite is made for this deck. It's at least a 4-of in SB, but I'm thinking about playing it MD.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Thx for your helps. As you can see, I start from scratch. According to me, it looks like the best combo for Modern on the source at this moment. It's redundant, in blue and does not rely on resolving a spell that is 6CC or more. Also the Flash-Twiddle guys are really useful for stalling.

Philipp: Flusterstorm won't miss
Jeff: Remand is a possibility instead of Condescend. It needs testing to decide because they really do different things.
Fuzzy: Can you be more specific? Because I'm very bad in T2 and I hardly know a land that is neither a fetch, a dual or a wasteland.

Also Spellskite is made for this deck. It's at least a 4-of in SB, but I'm thinking about playing it MD.

I like Remand over Condescend because 1) It always counters (granted they can replay if the game goes long) and 2) Condescend really wants to be played for 3 mana to do anything decent and it stops us from doing other relevant stuff during our turn if we want to hold up countermagic.
By filter lands he means you need to play 4 Cascade Bluffs to help smooth your mana.
Another card to consider is [card]See Beyond[/cards]. It might not seem super amazing but since you really hate to draw tons of your combo pieces, it can help.
As for Spellskite, seems good enough for the maindeck if only because otherwise Zoo is a crapshoot game 1.

EDIT: Pact of Negation also seems like a must because instant speed removal is going to be cheap and plentiful in modern

[Maveric78f]

Pact looks good MD. If I use 1 on G1, I would tend to remove them on G2 though.

Here is the list I'm trying, right now.
The combo: 14
4 Splinter Twin
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Pestermite
4 Deceiver Exarch

The manipulation: 8
4 Preordain
4 Ponder

The control: 17
4 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
2 Pact of Negation
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spellskite

The lands: 21
4 Island (definitely the land you want turn 1 and it's better with Magus)
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Cascade Bluffs (definitely better than Pool which got me colour-screwed more than once)

The sideboard:
SB: 4 Magus of the Moon
SB: 4 Firespout
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 3 Mystical Teachings
SB: 1 Watery Grave
SB: 1 Cryptic Command

Also zoo is not a crap shot g1, because it does not know what we are playing and their strategy is to hit as fast as possible (and thus tapping out easily).

See Beyond could be good indeed, but it seems to me that Clique would be better at this game (instant speed and possibility to play it as protection).

Ps: Cryptic Command looks too slow, and there is not really a permanent I can think of, that can prevent us from comboing, so the bounce part is not really useful. I could replace it with 2 more Spellskite MD.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Also zoo is not a crap shot g1, because it does not know what we are playing and their strategy is to hit as fast as possible (and thus tapping out easily).

Having G1 of your zoo matchup rely on your opponent being terrible is a bad plan. If I'm a zoo player and see UR game one and Cantrips, I'm putting my money on combo. Further, once a meta develops, it gets really easy to figure out what decks are what

[Maveric78f]

Now I play 4 Spellskite, this is really the best weapon against removal in general.

Regarding the zoo MU, I can't say if it's the best strategy for them to play control. I've played against some zoo players that where keeping their mana untapped and got rapped by multiple untappers, bolts on their Qasali/Lavamancer. Also I play now 8 */4 blockers.

[kicks_422]

Gifts Ungiven gets you your missing piece if you also run Noxious Revival.

Splinter Twin + Kiki-Jiki + Noxious Revival + countermagic or Spellskite

Is Gifts too expensive at 4cc?

[Final Fortune]

Doesn't this deck want Vendilion Clique? You're relying completely on counters to protect your combo pieces and none of them do a particularly efficient or good job of it, plus Vendilion Clique trades with beaters or goes aggro out of nowhere.

[Maveric78f]

Gift is definitely too slow. And Noxious Revival is really not a card I want to play. Actually, I don't have any difficulty to assemble the combo with the library manipulation.

At this moment, my protection suite is the following:
4 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
2 Pact of Negation
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spellskite

Lightning Bolt and Spellskites are very good already at gaining some time against aggro. Remand also does the job and is better curved than Vendilion Clique. In addition of Spellskite, the twiddle creatures often remove an attacker and Exarch is also capable of blocking without dying (if you don't fear to get him finished by bolt).

If the aggro player is playing conservative, you have time (at least 2 more turns) to dig for blockers/lands: spellskite/exarch, Spell Pierce and Pacts of Negation.

For the moment, I win all my matches on Cockatrice for what it's worth. You should try it. It generally races other combo decks, it packs enough MD protection to win zoo (and post-SB, Firespout wrecks them hard), Landfall sligh might be more random because their attackers reach easily 4 in power each turn and some of their hands can be completely nuts, and 12-posts is too slow to win against us (and post SB, Magus does the job). I did not see a single discard-packing deck and only a few control decks, so it's a bit more complicated for me to talk about it.

[rufus]

Have you considered adding Chrome Mox to the deck? Turn 1 or Turn 2, it should be able to speed you up by a turn. Though, I suppose, it's a little dead later in the game.

[yankeedave]

Chrome Mox is banned sadly, otherwise I would play Belcher :)

Do you have room for a Dismember or 3 in the 75? I would think it's better than Lightning Bolt a lot of the times. 4 life can be painful against Zoo, but it takes down Baneslayer and Tombstalker.

[Maveric78f]

Baneslayer and Stalker are not going to attack much, between the twiddle guys and the fact I would have won before they into play.

[emidln]

I've been playing with this core for the last few days to pretty good results on cockatrice:

16 combo pieces
8 ponder/preordain
3 gigadrowse
4 spellskite
3 dispel
4 seething song
22 lands (cascade bluffs, scalding tarn, steam vents, island, mountain, 3 dreadship reef/caliform pool)

sb has been a mix of:

v clique
gigadrowse
repeal
into the roil
firespout

Alternately, I've been playing around with a build that features Vendilion Clique in the maindeck with sb Aether VIals and Dark Confidant. I'm pretty sure this isn't as good as gigadrowse vs control, but that Vial can play your combo pieces and disruption/draw is sorta interesting. Probably too slow though.

[Maveric78f]

I wanted to play Gigadrowse first but then I did not know how to play it. Well with vial, it's much more efficient, but in a vial-less build, how do play your twiddle guy and gigadrowse on the same turn? If you don't play them on the same turn, then the opponent has time to deal with your twiddle guy in response to Gigadrowse and it's still 2 for 1.

Regarding your build, I think that you can go down to 2 Kiki-Jiki, it was successfull for me. Also I play 2 pacts, and I'm thinking about playing more of them. Dispel might be better than pierce. For the moment I keep pierce because I fear targeted discard, and usually 1 pierce is enough. Also 26 mana sources sounds like a lot. For the moment I had absolutely no problem comboing off my 21 lands, even if I admit cantrips are sometimes used more to find lands than to find the combo. But generally, when I have few lands, I have either a lot of cantrips or already the combo in hand.

If you absolutely want to play mana acceleration, Rite of Flame looks better since it enables you to win by turn 3 if you have 2 of them in hand. Also it improves the Magus of the Moon game plan post SB.

[emidln]

I found that I absolutely wanted to be using cantrips to find business, not lands. I was actually at 23 lands but was sometimes feeling flooded.

While I probably could cut combo pieces, I don't really want to be in the business of a control deck and just buying something like Lightning Bolt isn't nearly enough to make up for not being able to assemble the combo as consistently.

The primary purpose behind Seething Song was to be able to make sure that I have the ability to cast Kiki Jiki on 3 lands (e.g. on the draw against land destruction). Rite of Flame handles the other use case (like the occasional ritual + dispel draw), but isn't as good at getting me to lots of red. The +2 is also sometimes relevant in gigadrowse draws since you wan to pay 7-8 mana around turn 5 (turn 4 gigadrowse, turn 5 win).

Another option is a signet-like effect. SIgnets are kinda juicy if you want to work in a Gifts package since you can turn 3 gifts to setup the turn 4-5 kill (depending on the gifts package).

To do that, you probably want the following at a minimum

4 Signet Effect (Izzet Signet probably)
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Noxious Revival
1 Dispel
1 Gigadrowse
1 Seething Song (enables the turn 4 kill after a turn 3 gifts)

Obviously, you probably end up playing more Dispel and Gigadrowse, possibly even 4 Gifts. None of those cards are awful to draw on their own (excepting maybe Revival), and you could even provide extra alternates like Pact of Negation or Spell Pierce. It's worth noting that you can use GIfts as a tutor to deal with pretty much everything that isn't Gaddock Teeg in addition to finding combo pieces.

As far as playing Gigadrowse, I've found that 3 storage lands is all I really need given the amount of blue (and filters) in my manabase.

I'm not sure that Magus of the Moon is where you want to be as the source of your first four Moon effects. Dismember and Punishing Fires are going to see a lot of play and I worry about them a ton more (since they're already good vs us) than I do Spell Pierce.

[Maveric78f]

Updated (or rather created) primer.

[Maveric78f]

This deck needed a up, since it's the best currently.

Against a guy playing pod/fauna shaman deck (could not see a single combo element).


maveric78f taps Island.
maveric78f taps Island.
maveric78f taps Steam Vents.
maveric78f taps Steam Vents.
maveric78f puts Splinter Twin into play from hand.
Kornelius: gay
maveric78f: you're playing rainbow birds, and elves in leggings and you call me gay?

[SpikeyMikey]

This really is one of the few true tier 1 decks. Thing is, it's pretty simple to build, there's not a lot of tweaking that needs to be done. One thing that I think is a serious problem for this deck, however, is Zoo. Between the removal and the fast clock, I think it's a tough matchup for Twin. Not unwinnable by any means, but everyone and their mother is running Zoo right now on MTGO and it looked pretty heavy in that tournament that was reported in Chicago as well. You'd think the fact that it can't beat 12Post decks to save its life would dampen people's enthusiasm for the deck, but apparently not. Spellskite helps some with the removal aspect, but you only have 4. Between Path, Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg and the burn, half their deck is problematic for Twin. What are you running to help mitigate that?

[emidln]

This really is one of the few true tier 1 decks. Thing is, it's pretty simple to build, there's not a lot of tweaking that needs to be done. One thing that I think is a serious problem for this deck, however, is Zoo. Between the removal and the fast clock, I think it's a tough matchup for Twin. Not unwinnable by any means, but everyone and their mother is running Zoo right now on MTGO and it looked pretty heavy in that tournament that was reported in Chicago as well. You'd think the fact that it can't beat 12Post decks to save its life would dampen people's enthusiasm for the deck, but apparently not. Spellskite helps some with the removal aspect, but you only have 4. Between Path, Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg and the burn, half their deck is problematic for Twin. What are you running to help mitigate that?


4 Kiki jiki solves Pridemage and Teeg. I play the 12 best cantrips in the format (Ponder, Preordain, Sleight of Hand) and have no problem ffinding Kiki Jiki when I need it. I also have Seething Songs to make sure that I can cast Twin/Kiki off 3-4 lands.

[Maveric78f]

This really is one of the few true tier 1 decks. Thing is, it's pretty simple to build, there's not a lot of tweaking that needs to be done. One thing that I think is a serious problem for this deck, however, is Zoo. Between the removal and the fast clock, I think it's a tough matchup for Twin. Not unwinnable by any means, but everyone and their mother is running Zoo right now on MTGO and it looked pretty heavy in that tournament that was reported in Chicago as well. You'd think the fact that it can't beat 12Post decks to save its life would dampen people's enthusiasm for the deck, but apparently not. Spellskite helps some with the removal aspect, but you only have 4. Between Path, Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg and the burn, half their deck is problematic for Twin. What are you running to help mitigate that?

My game plan is Spellskite*4, bolt*4 and firespout in SB*4. Also Spell Pierces and Pacts are quite good (my SB plan is -3 remand -1 pestermite, +4 spouts).

[Grey Moose]

I've been having trouble settling on my instants. At some point, Spellskite, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, Gigadrowse, Repeal, and Echoing Truth were all in my main. These conditional counters are troubling for me. I'm only playing Remand for the card draw, but the first time someone casts Path with WW open, and Remand is all I'm holding, I'm going to flip out. I also figure Cloudpost will be banned soon, so my list does not consider that deck. I'm mostly looking to roll aggro, but I'm looking for solutions to the mirror as well. Please take a gander at my current list.

EDIT: How do you guys feel about Negate? I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet.

Creatures
4 Deceiver Exarch
3 Pestermite
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Enchantments
4 Splinter Twin

Instants
2 Cryptic Command
4 Remand
3 Dispel
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

Basic Lands
6 Island
4 Mountain

Lands
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents

Sideboard
3 Fulminator Mage
4 Firespout
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth
3 Spellskite

EDIT2: This deck is very fun to play, and for every time you get blown out by mana screw or well executed hate, there will be five times where you smoke a fool and have 40 minutes left in the round to go back to your hotel room and "test a green deck" if you catch my drift, before the next round starts. :)

[Maveric78f]

Spellskite should be *4 MD. I only very rarely side it out.

Cryptic Command cannot protect the combo and that's what you want to do in the first place. Dispel is ok, but Spell Pierce should be as effective.

The goal of Remand is not to protect the combo but to earn some time in order to find the combo pieces. I'm still not too sold on the remand slots, but I did not figure anything better for the moment.

[emidln]

You wouldn't need remand if you played Sleight of Hand. Imagine always having the combo by turn 3. 12 good cantrips will do that for you.

Cryptic Command isn't so much to protect the combo as to fend off enemy Spellskite (afaict) while randomly buying time in other matchups. I don't really like it myself (and would maindeck Thoughtseize and/or Echoing Truth before that), but it's not awful.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Spellskite should be *4 MD. I only very rarely side it out.

Cryptic Command cannot protect the combo and that's what you want to do in the first place. Dispel is ok, but Spell Pierce should be as effective.

The goal of Remand is not to protect the combo but to earn some time in order to find the combo pieces. I'm still not too sold on the remand slots, but I did not figure anything better for the moment.

Honestly, you should just play Vendilion Clique. It protects the combo, beats, cycles dead cards from your hand, blocks, eats removal, reveals your opponent's gameplan, and generally doesn't afraid of anything.

[SpikeyMikey]

Honestly, you should just play Vendilion Clique. It protects the combo, beats, cycles dead cards from your hand, blocks, eats removal, reveals your opponent's gameplan, and generally doesn't afraid of anything.

My list runs VC in board.

I only run 3 Kiki main and 4 Ponder/4 Preordain, but I still don't have any problems with finding the combo. With the 8/7 split of critters and Twin effects, I've got a 55.59% chance of naturally drawing both halves by turn 3. That's naturally, i.e. before any cantrips at all. So I feel that I can spend the room to pack a fair amount of disruption, namely Lightning Bolt, Spell Pierce and Remand. Dispel might be better than Remand though, I hadn't given it much consideration before. But any way you slice it, Zoo is easily this deck's worst matchup.

[Grey Moose]

But any way you slice it, Zoo is easily this deck's worst matchup.

I've been testing with 7 twiddle guys and 6 twin effects, and I've been happy with it. I've been testing all night, and I had 3 twin effects in my hand at one time on multiple occasions.

As for the zoo matchup being our worst, not only do I disagree, but if you're playing Bolt and SB Firespout, you own them. Combo almost always beats aggro in a race, and when you add in counters, cantrips, and removal, it's a wrap, son. Instead of aggro sticking 3 guys in the first two turns, I can Bolt one and Pierce the other and suddenly they're stuck with a single lonely Ape.

[CorpT]

I've been testing with 7 twiddle guys and 6 twin effects, and I've been happy with it. I've been testing all night, and I had 3 twin effects in my hand at one time on multiple occasions.

As for the zoo matchup being our worst, not only do I disagree, but if you're playing Bolt and SB Firespout, you own them. Combo almost always beats aggro in a race, and when you add in counters, cantrips, and removal, it's a wrap, son. Instead of aggro sticking 3 guys in the first two turns, I can Bolt one and Pierce the other and suddenly they're stuck with a single lonely Ape.

Your Zoo matchup may be improved by the fact that your opponents let you Spell Pierce their creatures.

[Grey Moose]

Your Zoo matchup may be improved by the fact that your opponents let you Spell Pierce their creatures.

Damn, you're right. I'm going on like 36 hours no sleep. I've still been beating up on them post boards.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's interesting to see how anti-aggro the lists that made T8 at PT Philly are. Firespout main is not a choice I'd have made, but apparently it's the right call. I do think that Disrupting Shoal and Pact of Negation are slightly worse than Spell Pierce though. Given the format, I'm more concerned about a spell stopping my opponent from going off than forcing my own combo through.

[Zunam]

I agree that Pact of Negation isn't that good. I almost never cast it. It feels too situational in this deck. I will try Spell Pierce in its slot.

An unbanned Mental Misstep would be really crazy for this deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

I agree that Pact of Negation isn't that good. I almost never cast it. It feels too situational in this deck. I will try Spell Pierce in its slot.

An unbanned Mental Misstep would be really crazy for this deck.

Yeah, but apparently people think it would make control work again. Control doesn't beat Twin without dedicated board even with all the goodies they banned. They don't have a real answer for Gigadrowse. The only things that really stop Twin are Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison and Spellskite. They run too many copies of each card to try and stop them by saying "no".

[CorpT]

Yeah, but apparently people think it would make control work again. Control doesn't beat Twin without dedicated board even with all the goodies they banned. They don't have a real answer for Gigadrowse. The only things that really stop Twin are Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison and Spellskite. They run too many copies of each card to try and stop them by saying "no".

Spellskite doesn't stop the Kikki portion of the combo as Love Janse knew/found out. Just an FYI.

[SpikeyMikey]

Spellskite doesn't stop the Kikki portion of the combo as Love Janse knew/found out. Just an FYI.

If it's Kiki and Deceiver I can see that, as I guess that might be modal (CDR help?). But with Pestermite, they target Kiki with the untap ability and you redirect it to Spellskite, stopping the combo. Unless I'm missing something. But even if it forces them to find 2 4-of's, that goes a long way towards slowing them down. It'd still be on par with BTS as a niche option in certain decks.

[CorpT]

If it's Kiki and Deceiver I can see that, as I guess that might be modal (CDR help?). But with Pestermite, they target Kiki with the untap ability and you redirect it to Spellskite, stopping the combo. Unless I'm missing something. But even if it forces them to find 2 4-of's, that goes a long way towards slowing them down. It'd still be on par with BTS as a niche option in certain decks.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker:
Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

The Spellskite can target the ability, but it doesn't do anything because Spellskite is not a creature you control. Love Janse knew that he wouldn't get a copy of the Spellskite, but put one into play anyway hoping his opponent would think that he could use the Spellskite to stop the combo. He got DQed for knowing that and trying it anyway.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker:
Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

The Spellskite can target the ability, but it doesn't do anything because Spellskite is not a creature you control. Love Janse knew that he wouldn't get a copy of the Spellskite, but put one into play anyway hoping his opponent would think that he could use the Spellskite to stop the combo. He got DQed for knowing that and trying it anyway.

So why can't you just have the untap ability get redirected to Spellskite?

[SpikeyMikey]

If it's Kiki and Deceiver I can see that, as I guess that might be modal (CDR help?). But with Pestermite, they target Kiki with the untap ability and you redirect it to Spellskite, stopping the combo. Unless I'm missing something. But even if it forces them to find 2 4-of's, that goes a long way towards slowing them down. It'd still be on par with BTS as a niche option in certain decks.




If it's Kiki and Deceiver I can see that, as I guess that might be modal (CDR help?). But with Pestermite, they target Kiki with the untap ability and you redirect it to Spellskite, stopping the combo. Unless I'm missing something. But even if it forces them to find 2 4-of's, that goes a long way towards slowing them down. It'd still be on par with BTS as a niche option in certain decks.


Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker:
Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

The Spellskite can target the ability, but it doesn't do anything because Spellskite is not a creature you control. Love Janse knew that he wouldn't get a copy of the Spellskite, but put one into play anyway hoping his opponent would think that he could use the Spellskite to stop the combo. He got DQed for knowing that and trying it anyway.
-Added bold to my quote.

I know, from playing with him in EDH, that Kiki can only target your creatures. But that's not what I'd be redirecting. Like I said, I could see if perhaps the Exarch ability is a modal ability (i.e. if they choose "untap target creature you control" you can't switch it to "tap target creature an opponent controls", i.e. to the Spellskite, because it would be both a redirect and a changing of modes) but that goes beyond my knowledge of the rules. But I see no reason why you can't have Pestermite untap your Spellskite. You pay U or burn 2 and they get 1 hasty copy to swing with.

[3eowulf]

You are assuming well, Pestermite is redirectable, Exarch isn't.

Regarding Janse's DQ looks like he tried to misdirect Kiki-Jiki while the opponent had an Exarch.

[CorpT]

-Added bold to my quote.

I know, from playing with him in EDH, that Kiki can only target your creatures. But that's not what I'd be redirecting. Like I said, I could see if perhaps the Exarch ability is a modal ability (i.e. if they choose "untap target creature you control" you can't switch it to "tap target creature an opponent controls", i.e. to the Spellskite, because it would be both a redirect and a changing of modes) but that goes beyond my knowledge of the rules. But I see no reason why you can't have Pestermite untap your Spellskite. You pay U or burn 2 and they get 1 hasty copy to swing with.

Good point. I think you're right about Exarch. Regardless, it seems like Kiki-Jiki has some more value against Zoo. Gaddock Teeg is an issue for Twin, but not for Kiki.

[SpikeyMikey]

So I think it's a shame this thread has slipped to page 3. I mean, granted, there's not a lot to say about it; it's still amazing, it's still resilient and it still beats most everything. But as far back as it is, you'd think it was some chump deck that had been discarded months ago. So for the sake of resurrecting this thread, here's my current listing:

4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Pestermite
4 Splinter Twin
3 Kiki-Jiki

4 Serum Visions
4 See Beyond

4 Spellskite
4 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
2 Pact of Negation

3 Repeal

4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
3 Mountain

Sideboard

4 Slagstorm
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Gigadrowse
3 Shattering Spree
2 Lightning Bolt


Right now, if I were going to take this to a tournament tomorrow, I would probably replace a See Beyond and a Pestermite with 2 Firespout/Slagstorm main. Aggro is very popular right now and having answers to fast decks beyond Repeal and tapping is nice. Especially if they're maining Teeg or other things of his ilk.

Of course, without GSZ, seeing a Teeg game 1 is pretty rare and most games you should have the turn 4 combo. The hard part is when you have the turn 4 but they've got mana open and you're forced to go off with a Pestermite. I'll often wait in that situation until I either HAVE to go off or until I can find Exarch or a counterspell/Spellskite to back Pestermite up with.

The main of my version is built to land the combo as consistently as possible on turn 4. There's no need to get cute and try and do a million things with this deck. It does one thing very effectively and very consistently, the rest of the deck is generalized answers (countermagic/Repeal), protection (countermagic/Spellskite) or dig. Since Remand and Repeal both cantrip, the deck can play defensive for a turn or two while still digging for a missing combo piece. I think this makes it as strong as pre-banning versions with Ponder/Preordain.

The sideboard runs the essentials. A cheap sweeper for Zoo and Affinity, a few Shattering Sprees for Pod/Affinity decks, Gigadrowse and Clique vs combo and control. Note that in the combo matchup, you want to be the control deck. You're maining 7 usable counters (Pact is usually only good as protection in the combo mirror) and with Clique in addition, you can really screw up their hand while waiting to go off with counter protection or to hit them with an EoT Gigadrowse. Note that you cannot play a creature and Twin in the same turn and go off that turn; the creature has to be unsick so it can tap to create tokens. This means you Gigadrowse for 3 less lands than tapping out. If that's not enough to tap them out, wait for a more favorable board position unless you know they have Gigadrowse as well.

Spellskite is huge against both combo and aggro as it provides an early blocker, redirects removal aimed at your combo creatures and in a pinch can lighten the impact of Ascension copied Lightning Bolts(take 2 to redirect to 'skite instead of 3 to the dome). He's also very good at stopping Splinter Twin as mentioned above. Only a combination of Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki can win with an opposing Spellskite on board and most of the removal spells that Twin decks play won't touch him. Repeal is also important main for Spellskite.

[KevinTrudeau]

I'd probably cut at least one (if not two) Mountain(s) for Misty Rainforest(s). I assume you put in three so Tectonic Edge can't affect you at all in games where you'd want to cast Keak-da-Sneak, but I think minimizing the frequency of hands where you can't cast your turn one Serum Visions, or have access to UU by turn three, is more important. Another reason to run more than one Mountain would be to make it so your Scalding Tarns are less painful for when you'd want to be spending mana and casting Lightning Bolt on the same turn (e.g. on turn three, tap two lands->See Beyond, play Scalding Tarn, "Go" against aggro with Bolt in hand), but you're not even running it main, let alone a full set, so I don't see that situation occurring all too often. I suppose there is Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter, and you are running Shattering Spree, but eh... I just can't see too many gamestates where having access to three basic Mountains would be all that beneficial, or at least beneficial enough to warrant increasing the number of lands that can't add U on turn one to more than to five-six (assuming Cascade Bluffs has been proven to be the second best dual behind Steam Vents, which I believe it has for this particular deck because of its RR(R) requirements). Two is the most I wold ever run, because two ensures you have full protection against Tec Edge in regards to casting Kiki-Jiki. Other than that, it looks solid for the most part, although I'd consider maining two Bolts ahead of two 3-CMC sweepers for cost-efficiency purposes.

[SpikeyMikey]

I'd probably cut at least one (if not two) Mountain(s) for Misty Rainforest(s). I assume you put in three so Tectonic Edge can't affect you at all in games where you'd want to cast Keak-da-Sneak, but I think minimizing the frequency of hands where you can't cast your turn one Serum Visions, or have access to UU by turn three, is more important. Another reason to run more than one Mountain would be to make it so your Scalding Tarns are less painful for when you'd want to be spending mana and casting Lightning Bolt on the same turn (e.g. on turn three, tap two lands->See Beyond, play Scalding Tarn, "Go" against aggro with Bolt in hand), but you're not even running it main, let alone a full set, so I don't see that situation occurring all too often. I suppose there is Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter, and you are running Shattering Spree, but eh... I just can't see too many gamestates where having access to three basic Mountains would be all that beneficial, or at least beneficial enough to warrant increasing the number of lands that can't add U on turn one to more than to five-six (assuming Cascade Bluffs has been proven to be the second best dual behind Steam Vents, which I believe it has for this particular deck because of its RR(R) requirements). Two is the most I wold ever run, because two ensures you have full protection against Tec Edge in regards to casting Kiki-Jiki. Other than that, it looks solid for the most part, although I'd consider maining two Bolts ahead of two 3-CMC sweepers for cost-efficiency purposes.

About the only time that this deck loses is when, for whatever reason, it can't find a combo piece against an aggressive draw. The sweeper is more useful than a spot removal in that case because it buys you more time.

You could certainly cut basic Mountains for Misty Rainforests. It is unquestionably a pain in the ass when you want to Gigadrowse (if you don't have a Bluffs to filter it). However, it's far more frequent that I'm digging for red mana than for blue mana. I've mulled 1 hand this week because it didn't have blue mana. While Rainforest can get me to that red mana, it's at the cost of 1-3 life which could make a difference against Zoo. I won a game against RDW last night at 5, if I'd have had to fetch out a Steam Vents for the 4th mana, it would've put me in bolt range. Instead I Exarched EoT and untapped and dropped a Mountain for Twin.

Cascade Bluffs is actually probably the best dual, better than Steam Vents in this deck. Because you need RR or RRR, its ability to produce RR is huge. You can go off with 1 Cascade Bluffs, but you need 2 Steam Vents or 2 Mountains (or one of each) without it. You don't want Bluffs as your only mana producer but you don't mind seeing it in every opening hand.

[KevinTrudeau]

You're probabaly right about the Rainforests. I keep forgetting that this isn't Legacy, and how important it is to minimize the life loss from your manabase and not throw in as many fetches as possible. I also agree that Bluffs is probably the best dual for this deck.

[4eak]

I'm pretty sure your decklist is missing some cards, I assume Spellskite.


peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

You're right. 4 of them. Thanks for pointing that out; I was trying to copy it from my MWS file which wasn't organized in any particularly useful fashion. Should've done a count.

[4eak]

Please explain the inclusion of Pact of Negation and See Beyond.

See Beyond is 'sorta' like brainstorm in that you get to dig deep and keep whatever you want in your 'expanded' handed and lose the junk. Sleight of Hand doesn't do that, but it does dig just as deep, but at half the cost. How often do you find the the second card from the top of your deck to be so much better than a card in your original hand that you find it worth the extra mana? Not often for me. Furthermore, I usually want to spend my turn 2 mana on either Spellskite, Repeal, or Remand.

Pact of Negation seems much better from the sideboard. The fact that you can't use it to buy time to combo your opponent out is a huge strike against it in my view. Remand, Repeal, the last combo pieces, more card filtering, and sweepers all seem better in the main.

Also, I've been pleased with Shivan Reef over 2 basics. Most of the time you aren't spending life to use it, but it has been nice for smoothing mana coloring.



peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

Please explain the inclusion of Pact of Negation and See Beyond.

See Beyond is 'sorta' like brainstorm in that you get to dig deep and keep whatever you want in your 'expanded' handed and lose the junk. Sleight of Hand doesn't do that, but it does dig just as deep, but at half the cost. How often do you find the the second card from the top of your deck to be so much better than a card in your original hand that you find it worth the extra mana? Not often for me. Furthermore, I usually want to spend my turn 2 mana on either Spellskite, Repeal, or Remand.

Pact of Negation seems much better from the sideboard. The fact that you can't use it to buy time to combo your opponent out is a huge strike against it in my view. Remand, Repeal, the last combo pieces, more card filtering, and sweepers all seem better in the main.

Also, I've been pleased with Shivan Reef over 2 basics. Most of the time you aren't spending life to use it, but it has been nice for smoothing mana coloring.



peace,
4eak

Reef's an interesting thought. I think that might be an acceptable alternative to at least 1 basic Mountain, maybe 2 of the 3.

See Beyond is an interesting one. When I've got 3 of 1 of the combo pieces in my hand, it's my favorite card. On good hands, there are better options. I've considered Sleight of Hand, Telling Time and even Compulsive Research and other expensive draw spells. What I came up with was that it's almost impossible to quantify the difference in quality between them. Say it's turn 2, would you rather Sleight or See Beyond? You're not casting Spellskite or Remand or Repeal that turn anyway if you Sleight, so you may as well spend the extra mana and get the better effect. Or use Telling Time where you can leave mana open for defensive spells and use TT if nothing more relevant needs to be cast. But what if you've got the Spellskite for turn 2 and you're trying to curve out. Not having the 1cc filter spell means you don't get to filter at all and so you'd much rather have Sleight.

But what made me decide to go with See Beyond is that if I have that curve where I'm going turn 2 'skite, turn 3 Pester/Exarch and turn 4 Twin, then the only thing I could possibly be missing is a protection spell. And the only one that works when I'm on curve is Pact of Negation and I'm not likely to find it with any of my mediocre dig spells. Telling Time was tempting because of the instant speed, but if I'm sitting on Twin, Twin, Kiki and I need something useful, I'd like to do the pseudo-Brainstorm like you said and exchange a useless card for one I might need.

Whether that's the right decision or not, I'm not sure. It's a very complex situation because there are pros and cons to each and they're hard to weigh because each one involves a number of possible lines and varies based on what the opponent is playing. I've been too lazy to try and chart out probabilities because the deck is so disgusting that it rarely ever loses anyway.

I think the Pacts are pretty flexible slots. I like that it means I can tap out to go off sometimes against decks that look to be holding removal or counters. But you're right; it's only go-off protection, it's not as flexible as the other cards in the deck. In an aggro heavy meta, I could totally see replacing them with more sweepers main. In a combo heavy meta, Dispel or Mana Leak could be an option. Pact suits my aggressive playstyle with this deck but much like See Beyond, that could be completely wrong, objectively.

[4eak]

My list is pretty close to SpikeyMikey's. Here is the list I've ended up with:

// Lands - 22
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
4 Shivan Reef
4 Cascade Bluffs

// Combo - 16
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Pestermite
4 Splinter Twin
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Protection & Stall - 14
4 Spellskite
4 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
2 Repeal

// Card Quality - 8
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 3 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Firespout
SB: 4 Gigadrowse
SB: 3 Dispel

I've moved up to 22 lands simply because I spend too much time using cantrips to dig for land. I am very rarely land-flooded. I think you want to have, on average, an equal need for the various functions of the deck while cantripping. Shivan Reef's have made turn 1 cantrips and spell pierce very consistent - lifeloss from them is minimal, but you are almost always happy to pay it (particularly with Gigadrowse). I'm not pleased with the 2nd mountain, I may just replace it with an Island.

The first card I'd cut would be Kiki, and the 2nd would be Pestermite. Repeals are also weak in the main. It is a catchall for which I can't seem to find a good replacement.

Remand is not amazing protection for the combo (it does work in some situations, but they are uncommon), but it timewalks all day long for you. The card is weaker on the draw, but godly on the play.

Gigadrowse has been outstanding. Almost all people playing blue decks are trying to play a draw-go game against me, and Gigadrowse works them over.

I like Firespout because it is both easier to cast and because it doesn't hit flyers (yes, that is usually a good thing). Namely avoiding Pestermite has been more important than answering flyers in this format for me (the sort of deck that plays flyers are usually not the sort of decks in which I would side in Firespout anyways).

Dispel is great. It isn't just for counterwars. Instant speed removal is a common problem, and Dispel nips it in the bud, especially if you slow yourself down by one turn. 4-lands play a tapper with Dispel up (a non-trivial number of players use removal right there - not good for PoN), next turn play a land & Twin with Dispel up. Where Spell Pierce starts to fail (particularly against players who know to play around it), Dispel starts to rock. PoN is the competitor, imho, and it is far more aggressive. I've liked the defensive role of Dispel more.



peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

I know this isn't particular constructive, but this deck is just so nuts, isn't it? It's so difficult to lose with it. When I play with it, I feel like I did when I was playing with 4 color Landstill half a decade ago. I'm going to do whatever the hell I want and nobody is going to stop me.

I've been thinking about Dispel a lot lately. I don't like it main; I feel Pierce is better because of the times when I want to counter a relevant artifact/enchantment/planeswalker. However, I do like where you've got it in the board. Like you said, it's a solid card to protect you from removal. Of course, so is Spellskite, but it never hurts to have more redundancy in that department.

After playing KevinTrudeau last night when he was running Twin and I was running my Bant deck, I feel like I want to have a backup to Repeal in the board. I wrecked his face M1G3 and M2G2 with Leyline of Singularity. He had Repeals both games, but after I landed a threat (GoST both times I think), I just sat back on Pierces and Leaks and forced him to try and play around me. Of course, Leyline of Singularity is pretty uncommon, but it might be nice to have a cheaper option in board like Echoing Truth or Wipe Away.

[4eak]

If the metagame is going to be blue-based (which could easily be the case) and decks commonly use Ghostly Prison, Leyline of Singularity, Torpor Orb, etc., then I'm boarding in Krosan Grip. Don't screw around with bad answers to highly effective and well protected hatecards - this deck can easily splash a third color & not worry about it. I've 'over-colored' the deck simply to make t1 plays more consistently and to make Gigadrowse (and Spree) that much better. Splashing for a 3rd and even 4th color would not be a huge deal - the sacrifice to my manabase would be minimal, but the gain would be vital in the proposed metagame.

In fact, I need to consider if any of the other colors offer anything I want for the maindeck. I've not given it much thought.


peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

If the metagame is going to be blue-based (which could easily be the case) and decks commonly use Ghostly Prison, Leyline of Singularity, Torpor Orb, etc., then I'm boarding in Krosan Grip. Don't screw around with bad answers to highly effective and well protected hatecards - this deck can easily splash a third color & not worry about it. I've 'over-colored' the deck simply to make t1 plays more consistently and to make Gigadrowse (and Spree) that much better. Splashing for a 3rd and even 4th color would not be a huge deal - the sacrifice to my manabase would be minimal, but the gain would be vital in the proposed metagame.

In fact, I need to consider if any of the other colors offer anything I want for the maindeck. I've not given it much thought.


peace,
4eak

From everything I've seen reported, people are obsessed with Zoo. There, adding a third color does hurt you because of the pain of more duals. You could possibly get mileage out of Gemstone Mine or maybe even Forbidden Orchard, but with Echoing Truth, you could go off at the end of 5 after bouncing their hate. Grip necessarily pushes your go off to 4 (since 3 will be spent Gripping their hate), only a turn faster than Echoing Truth with significant added pain from the mana base. Against hate in Zoo or other fast aggro like Affinity, you'd want Echoing Truth, since it's the fastest bounce and lets you deal with redundant hate pieces. Against control, I think Wipe Away would be more ideal since you don't have to worry about Dispel/Pierce/Remand with split second.

Some of the listings from the PT ran a single Breeding Pool main to help control their Firespouts. But Faeries isn't a threat and therefore hitting fliers isn't that important. I run Slagstorms in the board mostly because my earlier (pre ban) listing ran Slagstorms in board. But my earlier listing also ran Lightning Bolts main, so there were times when the ability to hit players became relevant when I'd just go bad aggro against a heavy control deck. Now, I only have 2 Bolts post board. I'm also not running the Simian Spirit Guides I was pre-ban. So I should probably move to Firespout.

I've been thinking the last couple of days about the idea of a transformational board for this deck. Much like Dredge, this should beat everything game 1. There's a lot of effective hate that can be brought in against it in games 2 and 3 however. My thought is that if an opponent is going to slow themselves down bringing in and utilizing hate, it might be easier to dodge the hate by racing than fight it by boarding in answers. The only reason I think that might not work is because decks are going to keep in their removal to deal with Exarch/Pestermite. When Goblin Trenches ran it's oh-so-effective aggro xformational board, it worked because people would board out removal making Lightning Angels and Flametongue Kavus uber effective.

I'm not even sure what I'd run in a U/R deck to try and aggro it out. The Pestermites and Exarchs could stay. Lightning Bolt would be a definite 4-of. Beyond that? I just don't know. Goblin Guide? Snapcaster Mage? Hanweir Watchkeep? Stromkirk Noble? Hard to say what would fit best.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not even sure what I'd run in a U/R deck to try and aggro it out. The Pestermites and Exarchs could stay. Lightning Bolt would be a definite 4-of. Beyond that? I just don't know. Goblin Guide? Snapcaster Mage? Hanweir Watchkeep? Stromkirk Noble? Hard to say what would fit best.

Vendilion Clique
Coralhelm Commander
Genju of the Spires
Kiln Fiend
Delver of Secrets


Short list of aggressive cards that I would play to get more aggro-oriented in U/R.

[4eak]

The transformational sideboard to aggro is awful. The only reasonable transformational sideboard is going for another UR-based (primarily UR at least) combo which happens to be largely immune to hate that we might expect. Even that seems weak though. Only if this deck sees serious hate that it can't answer (and, I suppose I disagree about the splashing for the 3rd color) would I be willing to go for such an extreme strategy.


peace,
4eak

[Maveric78f]

I think that the best transformational SB is to become a control deck, which it is already MD (controlcombo). To achieve that, I play an Overgrown Tomb in SB, sometimes useful for Firespout, but also for flashingback Mystical Teachings and Ancient Grudge, playing Back to Nature...

[SpikeyMikey]

4eak: I have no intention of running a transformational board right now. People just aren't devoting enough hate to Twin on MWS to make it worthwhile. Mostly, they just bitch and moan about "gay combo" and then quit. But I'm looking to stay a step ahead.

What would I do if everyone *was* bringing in 6-8 hate cards? If I could expect people to mull for Torpor Orb every game postboard? Do I want to run Steel Sabotage or do I want to run Lava Spike? Which is more likely to win for me in a game where my opponent is trying to stop my combo at all costs?

The question of whether or not an aggro board is worthwhile in those cases depends on just how fast I can make it. Can I make it fast enough, consistently enough, to race fast aggro with 6-8 hate spells boarded in? Can I use the hate dodging to beat Zoo at their own game? Preboard, of course not. But postboard, maybe. And if so, and if there's enough hate out there (or enough Soul Sisters), then the transformational board will be good. But I'd rather get a jump on designing it now.

[Dsch]

A transfomational SB could be the Hive Mind Combo, I guess.

[SpikeyMikey]

A transfomational SB could be the Hive Mind Combo, I guess.

That's a very interesting thought. 4 Hive Mind, 4 transmute spells, 2 more dig spells, 4 Pact of the Titan and one Slaughter Pact? Board out the 15 Twin combo pieces. Not a bad idea at all.

[4eak]

I've been trying it out for a couple days. I have mixed feelings about it.

Hive Mind does better against control because it loves PoN + Gigadrowse is an insane bomb (stronger even than it is in Twin). Hive Mind requires mana acceleration to have a real shot at racing aggro. It can get the turn 4 win, but, it isn't easy. Pre-boarding is perhaps a good idea as well (e.g. 4x PoN main).

Unfortunately, I think Zoo is still too strong. Black-based aggro-control decks (built and played well) have been problematic. I've tested against Bant several times now, and I've not been happy with that matchup either. Hive Mind isn't much better in these matchups (it is far worse against Zoo), and for now, I just don't see it being worth it. If blue and/or white control decks were owning the metagame , it would make more sense (it looks like an idea to keep in the back of our minds if and when the metagame shifted to be that).


peace,
4eak

[hotbeefcakes]

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
2 Sulfur Falls
5 Island
4 Mountain

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Deceiver Exarch

4 Splinter Twin
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Telling Time
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Galvanic Blast
2 Vapor Snag (Possibly into the roil or repeal instead?)


The idea of this deck is to have a fast clock, reasonable amount of control, and a game-ending combo. Opponents cannot afford to play around splinter twin when you have delvers and burn. Deceiver Exarch is very live even when you don't have splinter twin. It can pseudo-time walk and allow 3-6 damage through. I know telling time seems weird but it's been absolutely amazing at instant speed. It's exactly what you want to be doing in a tempo deck.

Sideboard options:
Tarmogoyf (more green in manabase needed) - Provides a relevant body post-board that opponents are hesitant to use removal on if they have already seen the combo.
Firespout - Auto-include in almost any metagame
Negate - Hard counter against removal and planeswalkers
Dispel - More narrow hard counter
More Burn - If decks are boarding in a lot of hate, more burn is always good. Also great against affinity
Leyline of Singularity - For splinter twin matchups
Dismember - Doran rock builds, goyf decks possibly
Combust - Splinter twin answer

I'm not a very good theorycrafting deckbuilder. I need lots of playtesting to properly build decks, and I've only got in about 10 matches so far with this after building it today. Any advice or playtesting results would be great!

[4eak]

Splinter Twin threads merged. If you think Splinter twin should play with fewer redundant pieces and instead play other cards, then you should explain why.

-4eak

[thefringthing]

I have a hard time believing that's the right manabase for this kind of deck. Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows kills opposing Delvers and opens up some better sideboard options. It also doesn't hurt your ability to get double red online for Splinter Twin.

EDIT: I'm always forgetting to make sure I'm not posting Legacy suggestions for Modern decks. Above still stands.

[Jim Higginbottom]

I have to assume this deck gets better with nacatl banned, right?

[SpikeyMikey]

I have to assume this deck gets better with nacatl banned, right?

Yes and no. It takes some pressure off the deck as Affinity needs to have more creatures on the board to present a real clock (and so does Zoo now). However, it's not just Zoo. It's any deck with even a reasonable clock that can run Combust. Since you can't counter Combust or redirect it to Spellskite, the only answers to it are Vendilion Clique and Gigadrowse, two cards you wouldn't normally run against aggressive decks. Since you're naturally split over two turns, Silence isn't an option. So depending on the amount of dedicated Twin hate, yes, Twin gets better.