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SpikeyMikey
08-15-2011, 04:44 PM
Greenpost is a pseudo-combo deck that seeks to accelerate into the biggest (colorless/color-light) threats the game has to offer. Utilizing the 8 available Locus lands as well as Vesuva to ramp mana with Cloudpost, the deck can quickly reach a critical mass of mana. 3 Cloudposts is 9 mana, meaning the deck can have as much as 13 mana available on turn 4 (3 Cloudposts/Vesuva and 1 Glimmerpost). Usually, the deck accelerates into Eldrazi-casting range around turn 6, spending the first few turns tutoring for lands and fending off opposing strategies with Beast Within and All is Dust.

There are two distinct routes this deck can take. The first is an Eldrazi-light build that uses Primeval Titan (or Green Sun's Zenith into Primeval Titan) to fetch up Eye of Ugin and Eye of Ugin to fetch the Eldrazi. The second is a creature heavy version that eschews Eye in favor of a high Eldrazi count. Prior to the official creation of the format, the creature heavy version was superior as it had a better matchup against Hypergenesis and the mirror. As of right now, I don't have any testing to back up which one will be better going forward. The format is in a state of flux right now and which version is better will depend heavily on the mix of aggro and combo in the format. The Primeval Titan version runs better against aggro decks like Zoo as it can use Titan to fetch double Glimmervoid and provide a blocker for their biggest threat, often boosting the deck by 8-10 life or more. The Titanless version is faster to land game-ending threats on the board, skipping the turns spent tutoring for Eye and then for the appropriate threat, making it better against other combo decks and packs Summoning Trap, which makes it especially scary for control (if the format had any control decks!) and Splinter Twin.

TitanPost

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Explore
3 Rites of Flourishing

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 All is Dust

12 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ghost Quarter

Titanless GreenPost

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Explore
2 Ancient Stirrings

3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Karn Liberated

2 All is Dust
2 Beast Within

4 Summoning Trap

5 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ghost Quarter

As you can see, the two lists share a basic core but have wildly divergant gameplans. The core of any GreenPost deck is 4 Expedition Map, 4 Sylvan Scrying, 4 Explore, some number of Ancient Stirrings, some number of Eldrazi and some number of All is Dust. Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying are the two most effective land searchers available while Explore provides the deck with additional ramp. Ancient Stirrings is a very powerful dig card in a deck with 35+ colorless cards and All is Dust is likewise a great board sweeper for a deck with few, if any, colored permanents. From there, a number of cards can be added to the deck to customize it.


Playables -

Beast Within: this card ties with Explore as the most important spell in the mirror. 12Post mirrors (Greenpost or the inferior BluePost) revolve around who can get to an Eldrazi first. Winning the Cloudpost war is essential to winning the mirror (and playing first is a huge advantage) and Beast Within is the flip side to Explore. By removing opposing Cloudposts and replacing them with largely irrelevant Beast tokens, you help ensure that you win the race. It's also incredibly effective against most combo decks (Hive Mind being the notable exception) as you can use it to remove combo pieces. Again, the 3/3 beater is usually irrelevant because combo decks generally can't take advantage of incremental beats. In Modern, Beast Within really is a green Vindicate and in the absence of the real thing, it's a deceptively powerful card, especially at instant speed.

Green Sun's Zenith: used exclusively in TitanPost variants, GSZ's biggest boost comes from the ability to fetch out a turn 1 Dryad Arbor which can accelerate the deck into a turn 2 Rites of Flourishing or Explore into double 'Post. Either line allows for explosive turn 3 or turn 4 plays. Again, in the mirror, winning the Cloudpost war is usually equivalent to winning the game so anything that helps you ramp faster is a good thing.

Karn Liberated: Karn excels in the mirror and against creature-light decks. Because of his casting cost, he can land as early as turn 3; a lightning fast drop on the play and an excellent tool for slowing down combo decks. Again, if control were a factor in the format, this would be excellent against that as well since Planeswalkers are notoriously difficult to interact with.

Primeval Titan: Titan allows the deck to quickly move from "a lot of mana" to "sickeningly large amounts of mana". Dropping a Prime on turn 4 will bump you from 6 mana available (2 Forests, 2 Cloudposts) to 18 mana (2 Forests, 4 Cloudposts). It also allows you to tutor up Glimmerposts when you need extra life or Eye of Ugin to fetch up Eldrazi with.

Rites of Flourishing: this card serves as additional copies of Explore. Its reusable nature makes it an excellent card for ramping, but in the current environment, it can be very dangerous, as it also accelerates the opponent. With a number of combo decks that are limited in speed only by their availability to mana, providing extra land drops can backfire. However, GreenPost runs a lot more lands than most other decks and the game-ending nature of its threats makes this card potent on the whole. This card would really shine in a more control-oriented format.

Summoning Trap: Summoning Trap is only playable in Titanless versions of the deck due to their higher creature density. While Emrakul is much better when you can actually hard cast him (thus ensuring the extra turn to swing with), Emrakul on turn 4 (or as early as turn 3 on a god hand) or 5 is a very potent threat. The ability to land Eldrazi a turn or two earlier than you could hardcast them can be game changing against combo.


Unplayables -

Sundering Titan: Titan is the first in a long list of fatties that just aren't good enough. While the land destruction of Titan is strong, it's not as strong as indestructible/untargetable annihilators. The mana cost is lower than the Eldrazi, but it falls at an unplayable spot in the curve. 3 Cloudposts is 9 mana but 2 Cloudposts is only 4, meaning a double Cloudpost hand would need 4 Forests in order to cast it. If you've got the triple Cloudpost hand, Kozilek only requires 1 Forest to drop and it refills your hand with juicy other bits. The only time where Titan could be playable is with multiple Cloudposts and a Glimmerpost (2 Cloudpost, a Forest and a Glimmerpost is 8).

It that Betrays: this is just Danger of Cool Things. While Eldrazi in general are good, the 3 big Eldrazi provide "on cast" benefits. If you connect with an Eldrazi, you're probably winning the game; the "stealing" effect of It that Betrays is almost always irrelevant.

Blightsteel Colossus: again, if you hit someone with an Eldrazi, you've generally got the game won. If they couldn't stop it the first time, they won't stop it the second time either. BSC is roughly as threatening as any of the Eldrazi except it lacks the annihilator, giving an opponent a chance to finish their combo or find an answer. Stripping their mana away with annihilator is just simply safer and thus the Eldrazi are better.

Tooth and Nail: Like Sundering Titan, Tooth and Nail falls into an awkward spot on the mana curve. The double green requirement means that barring an accelerant (Explore/Rites) it can't come down before turn 5. While Tooth offers creature combinations that win the game (Kiki/Pestermite, BSC/Urabrask, etc.) it also requires you to run creatures that you cannot hardcast and generally makes the deck worse in every instance where you don't have Tooth and Nail. For a combo that's consistently a turn slower than every other combo deck in the format in a shell with little room for disruption and nothing in the way of strong tutoring, this is a recipe for disaster.


Sideboard Options -

Some of the board cards for this deck are cards that are already mained; Beast Within is excellent in the mirror and against combo decks and deserves a full 4 copies between main and board regardless of the version of the deck being run. Karn and All is Dust are also strong board candidates. But there are a number of other cards that deserve consideration for the board, especially since Greenpost has the ability to splash secondary colors to support its sideboard.

Anti-aggro: Firespout is probably the next best answer to aggro after All is Dust. It's less effective against Jund than it is against Zoo, but it will usually buy you a turn and a turn is usually all you need to swing the game. Wurmcoil Engine is a decent anti-aggro card as well as is its cousin Batterskull. Past that, Kitchen Finks is probably the next best anti-aggro card but its casting cost makes it a somewhat poor choice.

Anti-combo: There are a number of different options here depending on what combo you're facing. Burning-Tree Shaman is passable against Splinter Twin and Persist, although you need doubles for it to be really effective since you have little in the way of early damage. Suppression Field is better, but it's in white which cuts you off from Firespout for aggro matchups. Beast Within is generally your best card in those matchups. Lightning Bolt can do the trick as well. Ethersworn Cannonist is a good stall tactic against Hive Mind, cutting off their acceleration and giving you time to deal with Hive Mind once it actually lands. Chalice of the Void can be effective against all of the combo decks if you're on the play; cutting off the 1 mana dig spells like Ponder and Preordain will buy you a fair amount of time.

Mattie
08-15-2011, 05:01 PM
My list is almost identical to your first list (TitanPost), which is kind of scary. I do think you need an Eye of Ugin since it allows you to get an Eldrazi after using Primeval Titan twice to seal the win. It seems like you forgot to add it. I also think it's quite safe to cut an All is Dust since I don't like seeing two.

My list is:

-1 All is Dust
-3 Rites of Flourishing
-1 Ghost Quarter

+1 Eye of Ugin
+4 Mana ramp

I'm convinced these last 4 slots should be dedicated to mana ramp. I'm not sure which mana producer is best yet. I have not tested Rites yet and I'm currently testing Wall of Roots in this slot.

NesretepNoj
08-15-2011, 05:07 PM
Am I misunderstanding something, or haven't you forgot to include Eye of Ugin in the TitanPost list?

SpikeyMikey
08-15-2011, 05:29 PM
I did. My apologies. I was trying to do it from memory. Will be edited momentarily.

AlexAI
08-15-2011, 06:45 PM
My testing list is in the middle of those two. I run 4 GSZ with 2 Titan/3 Wurmcoil/2 Emrakul/1 Kozilek.

Have you thought about expanding the GSZ package any?

List for reference:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
11 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tectonic Edge

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Acidic Slime
2 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness

2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Wurmcoil Engine

3 All Is Dust
3 Beast Within

4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and Sow (probably should be Map but I wanted to test it and it hasn't been terrible)
3 Explore


I've been running 1 ofs of Sakura-Tribe Elder, Llanowar Elves and Kitchen Finks so I have stuff to do early-midgame with GSZ before I can drop bombs, along with Acidic Slime/Eternal Witness for utility. They're all not bad by themselves, either. Maybe maindeck a Goyf? I've been thinking of boarding into 8 goyf.dec against Blood Moon red. I might be getting too cute with the 1 ofs.

I didn't know Ancient Stirrings existed, seems sweet. Should probably play some of those along with maps over Reap and Sow.

Does GreenPost just accept Twin and other combo are going to be pretty bad without a splash for sideboard cards? I think I would rather plan for Blood Moon instead by staying 1 color.

Koby
08-15-2011, 06:59 PM
GSZ definitely improves upon the UG-post lists, I'll be adding that to my next 12post list for sure.

I don't necessarily agree with that many Wurmcoil Engines maindeck. One has been good for me so far, with another 2-3 coming in post-sideboard against the fair decks.

As for the GSZ package - I would include 1 Oracle of Mul-daya. This guy is bonkers when it matters (and since you're tutoring for it anyway, you'll know when you want to get it).

Witness seems like win-more - In which situation would it be useful? Discarding Eldrazi achieves the same purpose. Having a way to destroy Blood Moon is good, especially if it's tutored. I think in most instances, just getting Primeval Titan -> All is Dust is sufficient however.

AlexAI
08-15-2011, 07:45 PM
3 Wurmcoil hasn't been bad. I've never had a problem casting them. Speed Zoo was(and still kind of is) giving me the business in testing and seeing that it's the most direct port from Legacy, I wanted to be prepared for it.

The reasoning on Witness was to get back a(n) All is Dust/Slime/Beast Within/Finks if I needed them again that badly, but I agree that it's probably too cute.

I've been meaning to put an Oracle in for a while, thanks for reminding me. Seems Witness for Oracle should work fine.

I think I'm going to replace the Llanowar Elf with another Elder. Getting the elf with GSZ hasn't come up while soaking a Goyf/Knight hit + Rampant Growthing is too good.

Edit: Holy crap I forgot Magus of the Candelabra existed too.

Kuma
08-15-2011, 08:14 PM
Magus of the Candelabra.

There's no good reason for the GSZ builds not to be running one at a minimum. If unmolested, he speeds us up by at least one turn. Yeah, he's boltable, but there's massive upside here. I've been dropping turn four Kozilek with this guy and doing dumb things like Kozilek + Wurmcoil Engine + Batterskull on turn five.

This is what I've been working with:

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
8 Forest
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Magus of the Candelabra

4 All is Dust

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
2 Batterskull

2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

I'm running more lifelinkers as a concession to Zoo and Jund, which will probably be big players in the format. Eldrazi Temple may not last, especially if the deck ends up going the Primeval Titan route. I also haven't tweaked the list for the mirror match, although Magus of the Candelabra and Wurmcoil Engine seem good.

Maveric78f
08-16-2011, 03:42 AM
Some remarks on Kuma's build:
- 8 forests are not enough. Definitely. You hate to use Expedition map for tutoring a forest. And even then, 12 ways (4 counterable) to get a forest is still risky.
- Steel Hellkite... I'm sorry but I really don't understand why you would play this over Titan, which means GG.
- 2 Eye of Ugin seems unnecessary. It's legendary and you already play a lot of ways to find the copy you have.
- I'm not a big fan of playing too many Eldrazis. In my builds I play only 1 Ulamog and 1 Emrakul.
- Eldrazi Temple helps you to find 1 additionnal mana to play a 10+ spell. Most of the time, either it's not enough or it's unnecessary. It's very rare that it makes the difference. On the contrary, playing 4 green mana producers might save your ass a lot of times.
- Sylvan Scrying: I'm quite reserved about this one. I still don't know exactly what to think...

I'd propose a greener 12-post
25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Expedition Map
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ

22 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
3 Primeval Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Planeswalkers:
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Karn Liberated

Koby
08-16-2011, 11:11 AM
Garruk 2.0 seems really greedy in this type of deck. :g::g: is hard enough to assemble oftentimes, so :g::g::g: might be out of reach. In fact, it's probably easier to cast Karn at :7: than Garruk at :2::g::g::g:.

Maveric78f
08-16-2011, 12:07 PM
With Overgrown battlement, it does not seem that difficult actually.

Kuma
08-16-2011, 12:22 PM
Some remarks on Kuma's build:
- 8 forests are not enough. Definitely. You hate to use Expedition map for tutoring a forest. And even then, 12 ways (4 counterable) to get a forest is still risky.

I've cut back the Eldrazi Temples to 1 and added 3 more Forests, but if you're not running Primeval Titan, eight Forests is plenty for casting Magus of the Candelabra, Ancient Stirrings, and Sylvan Scrying. The deck works fine even if you don't cast those three cards.


- Steel Hellkite... I'm sorry but I really don't understand why you would play this over Titan, which means GG.

Because the :g::g: is really awkward for this deck and Steel Hellkite is gg if you can hit them. I'm testing some Primeval Titans, and I'm really not impressed. The fact they have :g::g: in their mana cost makes them a turn slower than Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine, and we're already almost too slow against Zoo and Boros.


- 2 Eye of Ugin seems unnecessary. It's legendary and you already play a lot of ways to find the copy you have.

You're probably right. I was running it because it was an important card in the mirror match and I wanted to make sure I could still get one if the first one was destroyed.


- I'm not a big fan of playing too many Eldrazis. In my builds I play only 1 Ulamog and 1 Emrakul.

I think four is the perfect number. If anything, I'd run a fifth. It's nice to be able to cast them without getting Eye of Ugin once in a while.


- Sylvan Scrying: I'm quite reserved about this one. I still don't know exactly what to think...

You're okay with running Expedition Map, which costs three mana to get you a land, but you're not sure about a card that does the same thing for two mana? The :g: can be a little awkward, but in your greener build it shouldn't be a problem. I've been loving Sylvan Scrying.


I'd propose a greener 12-post

I don't know if I like giving up All is Dust. Wiping your opponent's board on turn four is pretty amazing. I'm still not sold on the GSZ builds. How fast is your clock? On what turn are you usually dropping Batterskulls, Titans, and Eldrazi?

Taking your suggestions into account, I'm now running this:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
11 Forest
1 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin

3 Batterskull
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Primeval Titan

2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 All is Dust

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Magus of the Candelabra

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Beast Within
4 Krosan Grip
3 ??

Anyone have any ideas for what to run in the sideboard?

SpikeyMikey
08-19-2011, 10:34 AM
The way things are sorting out on MWS and Cockatrice right now, Zoo and Splinter Twin are the two most common decks that I see. Outside of that, it's mostly a variety of odd combo decks, from Warp World to an Ad Nauseam + Angel's Grace --> Conflagrate deck I played last night.

In order to combat combo, I felt like I needed to step up my speed. To that end, I've gone up to a full 4 Ancient Stirrings to try and make sure I get a Cloudpost as early as possible. I hate having to rely on Stirrings because it's so random, but I hate losing to "I-lose-to-counterspells.combo" even more. Additionally, I've swapped out Explore for Azusa, Lost but Seeking. I like Explore but it's less explosive than Azusa and fits poorly into the curve on hands that don't have a natural Cloudpost. On turn 2, I'm either Sylvan Scrying or popping an Expedition Map, meaning I don't have mana to ramp with Explore. Since it's coming down on turn 3, I might as well play Azusa; I'm not doing anything else that turn anyway.

Has anyone done any testing with Serum Powder to see how it would work out? This deck is significantly better when it has a natural Cloudpost to start with.

New listing:

4 Expedition Map
4 Ancient Stirring
3 Sylvan Scrying

4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

3 Beast Within
2 All is Dust

3 Summoning Trap

5 Forest
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Temple Gardens
1 Ghost Quarter

SB

4 Batterskull
4 Suppression Field
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 All is Dust
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Maveric78f
08-19-2011, 10:52 AM
The way things are sorting out on MWS and Cockatrice right now, Zoo and Splinter Twin are the two most common decks that I see. Outside of that, it's mostly a variety of odd combo decks, from Warp World to an Ad Nauseam + Angel's Grace --> Conflagrate deck I played last night.
Really ? Splinter Twin ? I've never played against it. But I played a lot of Landfall Sligh, All-in-red, 12-post and zoo. Some U-based control too.

You cannot be serious about Warp World. My today's idea came from nowhere. And now, you tell me that you've already played against. Or perhaps, you played somebody who had the opportunity to test my list before me?

Sims
08-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Really ? Splinter Twin ? I've never played against it. But I played a lot of Landfall Sligh, All-in-red, 12-post and zoo. Some U-based control too.

You cannot be serious about Warp World. My today's idea came from nowhere. And now, you tell me that you've already played against. Or perhaps, you played somebody who had the opportunity to test my list before me?

Warpworld with Ob nix was a popular deck because of the crazyness that came with the package when it was legal in standard, I can understand people wanting to emulate it, and now you have even better ways of winning with it.

On topic- In the decks that run Walls as mana sources and aggro stallers, is Battlement better than Wall of Roots? I know Battlement has the potential to give you more mana per turn than WoR, but the ability to keep itself untapped while using it for mana on a turn where you need to cast a setup spell for your fatty on the next turn it seems like it might be better suited to the task.

Thoughts?

Koby
08-19-2011, 02:10 PM
I think Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map are too slow for this deck. Explore, on the other hand, has been playing ridiculously good for me.

I don't understand how you're not including Primeval Titan in your list SpikeyMikey. This card alone is the cause of a majority of my wins, even from bad board positions. Being able to tutor up 10+ life, or Eye of Ugin is not to be dismissed.

I have been running Reap and Sow to help out with tutoring, but mostly just to use it as LD against other ramp decks.

Here's my list:

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Explore
4 Reap and Sow
2 Sylvan Scrying

2 Beast Within

4 Overgrown Battlement
2 Oracle of Mul-daya
1-2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Primeval Titan
2 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
2-3 Sakura Tribe Elder (this one is constantly being boarded out, but it's good stall against Zoo and acts as the same acceleration as Overgrown Battlement)

12 post
11 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dryad Arbor

I have noticed that cards like Rite of Flourishing/Azusa/Oracle/Explore are ridiculously good for this deck. Green Sun's Zenith is also great in a heavier green creature build, because of its versatility - Turn 1 you can get Dryad Arbor to accel into 3 mana turn 2. Turn 3 you can get Oracle or Wall/STE Turn 4 you can get Primeval Titan and ramp out a turn 6 kill.

As for the sideboard, here's some ideas that I think will work:
Trinisphere - agaisnt Dstorm/Zoo
CotV - Cascade combo/Zoo/Pyromancer's Ascension
extra Beast Within
Karn (slower control decks)
extra Wurmcoils

EDIT: I'm not a big fan of Ancient Stirrings for one specific reason - you need to have :g: available, and this makes it weak. If you have :g: available, you should be ramping with that green mana instead of attempting to dig for land. I would rather ramp (Oracle, Explore, STE, Wall, Reap) than dig (Map, Scrying, Stirrings).

SpikeyMikey
08-19-2011, 04:36 PM
Ruckus: I'm not playing Titans because they're subpar against everything that's not Zoo. There might be variations that make good use of them; your listing with a number of turn 2 acclerants for example, but in the versions that aren't running mana creatures, you're talking turn 4 or 5 to drop Prime. That's faster than normal, but not fast enough. It forces you to rely heavily on Eye of Ugin which gives opponents a focal point to shutting you down. I've used that to my advantage in the mirror a number of times, holding Ghost Quarter or Beast Within until my opponent tutors for Eye with Primeval and then destroying it. Yes, they ramped a bunch of mana and gained a bunch of life, but I can take advantage of those Loci as well and have Eldrazi directly in hand instead of having 1 or 2 that I have to tutor for. Now the advantage to Prime is that it lets you get double Glimmerpost against Zoo, and gaining 8+ life on turn 4 buys some much needed room. But I have Wurmcoil main and Batterskull out of the board to help alleviate that problem. In any other matchup, I'd rather be able to directly cast Eldrazi rather than have to spend a turn tutoring for them and then casting them. It's like the difference between Natural Order with Hierarch and GSZ-->Arbor and Natural Order without. That turn makes a big difference, especially in the mirror where the first resolved Eldrazi wins.

Lemnear
08-20-2011, 03:33 AM
Mickey, we tested the powders in mono-brown 12-post and it's gold to grab the startup-cloudpost, being an accelerant itself. We included it because tutoring for the first post is often a turn 2 lackluster and a whole turn wasted without action ... We play 4 batterskulls in the main atm and they always Hit the Table turn 3 resulting in being a unmountable hill for zoo

SpikeyMikey
08-20-2011, 03:43 AM
Warpworld with Ob nix was a popular deck because of the crazyness that came with the package when it was legal in standard, I can understand people wanting to emulate it, and now you have even better ways of winning with it.

On topic- In the decks that run Walls as mana sources and aggro stallers, is Battlement better than Wall of Roots? I know Battlement has the potential to give you more mana per turn than WoR, but the ability to keep itself untapped while using it for mana on a turn where you need to cast a setup spell for your fatty on the next turn it seems like it might be better suited to the task.

Thoughts?

WoR can remain untapped to block, but it gets small quick and creatures are big these days. It's not like the old days where people are running Jackal Pups into your WoR, Tarmo or Nacatl can take them down quickly. I would go with Battlement unless you're running some instant speed something like Beast Within.

meow
08-22-2011, 03:33 AM
hi,

i'm testing this deck for some days now and the hardest part for me is against combo.

I have played against 3 different combo decks going off on turn 1-3and chalice doesn't seem enough to stop it because or they go off before i can set it with 1 counter or they rely on cards with 2cc and again they go off before i can place chalice. what's your side plan against it?

Maveric78f
08-23-2011, 04:18 AM
I've been testing quite a lot too lately. I corroborate what Meow says about the difficulty of racing/disrupt combo. 1st, we do not play any disruption. 2nd, we are 1 turn slow compared to them (generally, we can win turn 5 or 6, versus 4 or 5 concerning combo). 3rd, they usually pack enough disruption to slow us down 1 or 2 turns (discard, pierce or remand). All this to say, that it's impossible MD. Post-SB, we do not have a lot of options, regarding the fact, we play mono-green... As a preamble, I think it's fair to say that this deck should not be played in a combo metagame.

However, it's really strong against control and aggro, and we do not want to be a bye against Combo.

Zeroth idea: zeroth, because it's not a SB idea. You should be playing 4*Summoning Trap MD. It can help to race, to supprise-kill, to mana-ramp into an Eldrazi. Moreover, it's an instant so that you can keep mana open for anti-enchantments during your opponent turn but still do something.

First idea: if you're playing Stirring, there is no reason for not playing Chalice*4. Chalice@0 has been surprisingly good so far, maybe even better than @1. It stops Affinity, Living Dead and Lotus Bloom-decks. Chalice@1 are good against Affinity, Omelet, Ascension, Cantrip-based combo decks and also mana-ramp combo decks. Marginally, you can play it @3 against Splinter Twin if you're fast enough. It happened to me once, but I guess it's rarely soon enough in play (also they can respond it by playing the flash creature and then you're fucked up). If you don't play Stirring, well, you should.

Second idea: a mix of Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip/Wickerbough Elder. Nature's Claim if you play Eternal Witness or expect a lot of Omelet and K Grip if you expect a lot of Splinter Twin. Wickerbought Elder*1, if you play GSZ. It can slow down a lot your opponent playing Enduring Ideal, Ascension, Omelet, Lotus Bloom, Splinter Twin.

Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

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Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I finally removed the Planeswalkers. I had no way of tutoring them. All is dust was also removed because I play too many green creatures:
25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

menace13
08-23-2011, 05:43 AM
I have been trying 23 lands and don't think it is correct to play that few despite 2 Reap and Sow, 4 Stirrings and 3 Maps. Taking a lot of mulls this way. Not impressed with Slyvan Scrying unless I need a Eye mid-late game, same with Map but it does the turn 1 play, turn 2 activate or turn 2 off of a Cloudpost on turn 1, Glimmerpost turn 2.

Beast Within is awesome. It does everything i want it to do against Splinter Twin, Mirror LD, Moons and almost every match up aside Zoo and at Instant speed<3. Oblivion Stone rounds out my removal and It is mostly one sided anyhow.

Acidic Slime may be better than Elder haven't tried either though. I think the comes Into play effect of Slime is better if only for hitting lands as well. Both require 5 mana total, but Elder can be tutored by GSZ for 1 less mana-still needs the 1 green mana to activate-. And I get your point of Elder being proactive waiting there to destroy Bloom, Ascension, Splinter Twin.

Rukcus suggested Plow Under for the sheer amount of mirrors online and I like the card. I think running a 2nd Eye and up to 4 Emrakul would give an edge in the mirror havent tried this yet. Would Grinning Totem be good or even Jester's Cap for mirrors?

Maveric78f
08-23-2011, 06:14 AM
Terastodon is the best in the mirror. I have to try beast within. It looks very good indeed. Even more when you consider that I play 0/4 walls.

I don't like the tomtem or cap. It's good only if your opponent did not draw yet its kill condition.

I see Damping Matrix being also very good in quite a few MU (Omelet, Splinter Twin, Affinity). It cuts the Magus of the Candelabra in my build and Expedition Map in most builds but it can be game breaking.

SpikeyMikey
08-23-2011, 09:01 AM
Beast Within is very good against combo. The only combo I really worry about is Splinter Twin; it's the most consistent and difficult to deal with. The white splash gives me Suppression Field out of board which stops at least 1/2 of the combo decks out there and Angel's Grace which generally stops the other half (Oh, you're Pacting? I'll Grace in my upkeep. You're copying a Lightning Bolt 6 times with Pyromancer? I'll Grace and buy myself a turn or two.) I'm still vulnerable to Dragonstorm, but I don't consider that to be a real deck; it's just suboptimal compared to Twin.

The way to interact with combo decks in the format is the same way you interact with the mirror; land destruction. Plow Under is a very passable idea. Twin needs 4 mana to go off. Hive Mind needs 6 (although it gets a lot of its mana from Rituals/Seething Song). Dragonstorm needs 9 (see the Hive Mind note). Persist needs 3 (and usually 4) to kill you. Basically, if you keep your opponent on 2-3 lands, they won't be able to combo out. So you Beast Within a land on turn 3, you give them a completely irrelevant 3/3 token (the game will be over before they can beat you 7 times with it for the win) and you buy yourself another turn.

meow
08-23-2011, 04:47 PM
@spikeymikey if you splash white why don't get : Ethersworn Canonis


@Maveric78f : about control summoning trap can be a good answer the only control deck i really had big troubles with was a mono blue deck i saw in mvs that have been pretty anoying because he was altering bounces (Repeal) + counters (Disrupting Shoal as a fow in this format, remand, rewind, mana leak...) + usual cantrips (preordain...) . Cryptic Command have been devastating to bounce cloudposts opr threats i could throw but also draw... and he will finally later on kill playing emrakul with a blue spell i can't remember of now. (if someone can help me here to find the card, a blue card who costs 6 or more manas and he will search his library and put emrakul into play.

Kuma
08-24-2011, 10:36 AM
I'm wondering if we wouldn't benefit from a white splash for Gaddock Teeg. Of course you can find Teeg with Green Sun's Zenith, but it couldn't hurt to add a few fetches and some Temple Gardens. Combo decks seem like absolutely abyssmal matchups, and Gaddock Teeg stops most of them. I think the anti-combo sideboard should be:

Chalice of the Void: Cascade decks like Living End and Restore Balance. Also seems pretty good against Zoo.

Beast Within: Splinter Twin, anything else permanent based.

Gaddock Teeg: Empty the Warrens, Hive Mind, Breach Hulk, Polymorph, Enduring Ideal, Mindlsaver, Gifts Ungiven, etc.

Maveric78f
08-24-2011, 11:53 AM
Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn. Splashing white is difficult to hide and if they see it, they won't be surprised to see gaddock coming... I would go further: if I was to play gaddock in SB, I would certainly not splash W, in order to have the surprise effect (through GSZ) and see them side out all their burn spells.

I would not enter chalice against zoo. A lot of them still think that Qasali is good against us. In my build, the only artifact/enchantment I play is Wurmcoil Engine (I finally removed the sundering titan for a second Terastodon, because most of the time Terastodon is used to have 18 power on my side, or to remove a bridge or something like this).

Beast Within is good against combo and the mirror. I can be interesting against control, but my list is already good enough against control. I still have 2 K Grip in my SB but I will probably change them with Beast Within#3/4.

Kuma
08-24-2011, 01:38 PM
Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn.

...Okay. What's your non-burnable answer that hits a similar number of combo decks as Gaddock Teeg? Points for you if it can be found with Green Sun's Zenith.


Splashing white is difficult to hide and if they see it, they won't be surprised to see gaddock coming...

The question isn't whether or not they see it coming, but whether or not they can do anything about it. For this to be a legitimate comlpaint, combo would have to see Gaddock Teeg coming, and based on that information be able to make a play that stops or gets around Gaddock Teeg without significantly affecting their clock/consistency. I don't think combo decks can do that. If they have to spend a Peer Through Depths to get an answer to Gaddock Teeg, he's likely bought you at least a turn or two.


I would go further: if I was to play gaddock in SB, I would certainly not splash W, in order to have the surprise effect (through GSZ) and see them side out all their burn spells.

I think it's more important to be able to cast a Gaddock Teeg without a Green Sun's Zenith than it is to "surprise" your opponent, especially if you're running multiple Teegs. I'm talking like four fetchlands and a Temple Garden; it's not going to kill the manabase.

Besides, what combo decks are running maindeck burn spells? I'd think they'd be sideboard cards at best.


I would not enter chalice against zoo. A lot of them still think that Qasali is good against us. In my build, the only artifact/enchantment I play is Wurmcoil Engine (I finally removed the sundering titan for a second Terastodon, because most of the time Terastodon is used to have 18 power on my side, or to remove a bridge or something like this).

So we shouldn't run a card that blanks like 2/3 of their deck because they run a four-of that can answer it for three mana? I've never seen anyone so afraid of Qasali Pridemage.

I haven't tested Chalice against Zoo, so I could be off-base here, but it looks fantastic on paper. It's not a big deal one way or the other because we already stomp Zoo, but I have to think it's worth siding in over Magus of the Candelabra, or something.

Maveric78f
08-24-2011, 03:34 PM
Besides, what combo decks are running maindeck burn spells? I'd think they'd be sideboard cards at best.
The real question is : which combo deck is going to run burn against a white-splashed deck. Splinter Twin and Ascension for sure and they are the best combo decks. Omelet too.

Chalice against zoo is completely out of tempo. Ratchet Bomb is better IMO. Anyway, Zoo is a serious bye for this deck. I don't even know what we are talking about.

Kuma
08-25-2011, 02:48 PM
The real question is : which combo deck is going to run burn against a white-splashed deck. Splinter Twin and Ascension for sure and they are the best combo decks.

Splinter Twin and Pyromancer's Ascension are the best combo decks based on what exactly?

Also, why would I board in Gaddock Teeg against either deck? The only card in either deck that Teeg hits is Splinter Twin. There's not nearly enough tournament data to tell what the best combo deck is. What we do know is that there are a lot of different combo lists being thrown around and pretty much all of them are bad matchups.

Current List:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
5 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings

1 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Primeval Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Overgrown Battlement
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Batterskull
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Beast Within
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Firespout

Maveric78f
08-25-2011, 03:31 PM
Your list is everything I find awful in a 12-post list. I have already explained what and why on this very thread.

Also 2*Emrakul is mandatory. Sometimes you just need a combo finish. And 2*Emrakul is infinite turns, no decking. It means that it's also infinite draw (and then tutor what you need (Ulamog for dealing with Ensnaring Bridge for instance), and infinite damage. All of this already happened to me.

meow
08-26-2011, 05:02 AM
i'm playing a online tournament with this deck soon (starting the 29th) i'll give a feedback here with my decklist (which is close to Maveric's).

i also agree on 2* emrakul is a must have i have removed some days ago Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to add a second emrakul and i have been pretty happy with it.

To discuss the deck i feel we find a pretty stable deck now, but mby innistrad will get us a nice surprise for the deck !

Maveric78f
08-26-2011, 06:52 AM
Which anti-graveyard, instant-removing, green creature do we have in modern?

I thought Scavenging Ooze was going to be there, but I learnt that it wasn't legal not long ago (I don't understand those strange editions).

menace13
08-26-2011, 07:40 AM
3 Daily events so far on MTGO for Modern, a 80 man, 60 man and 50 man events leaves a lot of deck lists to look through. Green posts is already putting up good numbers with 7 placings in 3 events.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739320

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739342

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739343

Waikiki
08-27-2011, 01:59 PM
I've been testing quite a lot too lately. I corroborate what Meow says about the difficulty of racing/disrupt combo. 1st, we do not play any disruption. 2nd, we are 1 turn slow compared to them (generally, we can win turn 5 or 6, versus 4 or 5 concerning combo). 3rd, they usually pack enough disruption to slow us down 1 or 2 turns (discard, pierce or remand). All this to say, that it's impossible MD. Post-SB, we do not have a lot of options, regarding the fact, we play mono-green... As a preamble, I think it's fair to say that this deck should not be played in a combo metagame.

However, it's really strong against control and aggro, and we do not want to be a bye against Combo.

Zeroth idea: zeroth, because it's not a SB idea. You should be playing 4*Summoning Trap MD. It can help to race, to supprise-kill, to mana-ramp into an Eldrazi. Moreover, it's an instant so that you can keep mana open for anti-enchantments during your opponent turn but still do something.

First idea: if you're playing Stirring, there is no reason for not playing Chalice*4. Chalice@0 has been surprisingly good so far, maybe even better than @1. It stops Affinity, Living Dead and Lotus Bloom-decks. Chalice@1 are good against Affinity, Omelet, Ascension, Cantrip-based combo decks and also mana-ramp combo decks. Marginally, you can play it @3 against Splinter Twin if you're fast enough. It happened to me once, but I guess it's rarely soon enough in play (also they can respond it by playing the flash creature and then you're fucked up). If you don't play Stirring, well, you should.

Second idea: a mix of Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip/Wickerbough Elder. Nature's Claim if you play Eternal Witness or expect a lot of Omelet and K Grip if you expect a lot of Splinter Twin. Wickerbought Elder*1, if you play GSZ. It can slow down a lot your opponent playing Enduring Ideal, Ascension, Omelet, Lotus Bloom, Splinter Twin.

Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

************************************************************
************************************************************

Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I finally removed the Planeswalkers. I had no way of tutoring them. All is dust was also removed because I play too many green creatures:
25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

How do you find the magus of the tabernacle? Woops im not used to typing any other magus name beside moon. I ment candelabra indeed.

Maveric78f
08-28-2011, 03:48 AM
I found that they (magus of the candelabra obviously, not tabernacle) were too many in a version of the deck that does not want to rely too much on finding cloudpost. Right now, I've reduced their count to 2, and removed one forest too and added 3 Expedition Map. I'm still not sure it's the best option. The other MD change I made is to replace the sundering titan with a second copy of Terastodon, because it's just too good. Against aggro it's 18 power on 4 creatures, against control/combo it's a triple stone rain. Concerning the SB, I followed SpikeyMikey recommendation of playing 4*Beast Within (in place of Grip and Claim) and I'm very happy with it.

At this point, I'm not sure about Magus#2, the 3*Expedition Map, and Ulamog, which I hardly never tutor with Eye and I might prefer Terastodon#3 in its place.

To answer more precisely to your question Magus is a Time Walk, as it makes your Cloudpost/Vesuva useful the turn they come into play. But, as I said earlier its usefulness is conditionned to the fact you have a cloudpost in play. As a 2-of, I still tutor it very often with GSZ but I have it much less as a dead card when I'd prefer a simple mana provided. As a conclusion, it's great but conditionnal and can be useless sometimes.

I did some probabilities for Summoning Trap. I basically play 9 cards I'm almost always happy to reveal (and generally mean game for me): 2*Emrakul, 1*Ulamog, 2*Terastodon and 4*Titan. I have 70% chance of revealing one of them. If I add 2*Wurmcoil Engine to the list, then I reach 78%. Then I have 14% of revealing a mana-creature (6 of them) and 8% of revealing nothing. You have to know these probabilities when you play the deck in order to choose between your plays.

Also with 4*Cloudpost, 3*Expedition Map and 4*Stirring, you have 40% chance of having cloudpost in your opening hand, 20% of additional chance of getting post through map, and 18% additionnal chance of having Stirring, having 60% chance hitting either map or post. In the end, you should be able to drop Cloudpost on turn 3 in more than 70% chance.

Waikiki
08-28-2011, 09:28 AM
Ok so I've been inspired by mav's list and tuned it a bit to my liking. So far its been awesome ! been able to stop combo thnx to chalice and the golem(great find)

The list:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
10 [M12] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Overgrown Battlement
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [TSP] Magus of the Candelabra
1 [WWK] Terastodon

// Spells
4 [WWK] Explore
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [UD] Plow Under
SB: 4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

On a sidenote ulamog won me a game for being indestructible (wog)

Kuma
08-29-2011, 10:41 AM
Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

B-but Lodestone Golem is burnable! :rolleyes:


Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn.

******************************************************************************************************************


Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I tried your last posted list and I really think you want at least four land tutors. There were a couple of games where I used Explore to cast a turn three Primeval Titan, but mostly I just dropped an extra Forest or nothing at all. If Explore was Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map, I could have gotten a Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Eye of Ugin etc. Running some land tutors will also free up your Ancient Stirrings to find threats.

To answer your question, I often end games with lands in my hand, but having those lands on the battlefield usually wouldn't have made a difference. It's usually an extra Forest.



25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

I know you've changed this list somewhat, but I'm going to comment anyway. I liked Summoning Trap a lot when practicing with your list and I might try to work it into mine. I don't like the Dryad Arbor. I never once wanted to find it with a GSZ, preferring to wait for Overgrown Battlement, Magus of the Candelabra, or Primeval Titan. Four Magus of the Candelabra is way too many. I'd run one, maybe two if you're going to run Green Sun's Zenith. I only missed Kozilek in one game. He'll probably become the second Emrakul in my list. I'm not sure how I feel about Terastodon. He seems good in the mirror, but :6::g::g: is a lot even for this deck.

Overall, I feel you're sacrificing a lot of consistency for the occasional turn three Primeval Titan.

Waikiki
08-29-2011, 10:48 AM
the dryad arbor was really strong for me to be honest. Alot of times I struggled getting GG online which are only possible with T1 forest into GSZ or getting that T2 battlement where often times your going to drop cloudposts in the next turns.

meow
09-05-2011, 03:22 AM
hi,

i have been working on the deck and i have dropped all the magus and also a Oracle of Mul Daya (i used to like him to ensure i can play at least one spell per turn not drawing lands. they were good but since i added 4 wall of roots (the interaction with Overgrown Battlement is just awesome) i saw that i didn't need to tutor magus or play him anymore. I have added a eternal witness and have been very happy with it. Last change in side i added Qasali Pridemage + gaddock teeg and it helped a lot to find the answer at the good time.

About my online tourney here's the 1st part until here i made 2 rounds.

1st round vs Pyromancer Ascension (2-1)

G1 : the guy drops Pyromancer Ascension turn 1 with rite of flame then he just combo me out.

G2 : side : +4 calice of the void -4 summoning strap, +3 krosan grip -3 wurmcoil engine
I'm able to calice @ 1 at the 2nd turn he doesn't find an answer before i drop emrakul gg.

G3 : side : no change
Turn 2 calice @ 1, turn 3 calice @2... GG. (land order cloudpost, forest, glimmer)

2nd round vs zoo (2-0)

G1 : i drop life until 6 then primeval titan comes and i'm able to get another could + eye of urgin, Titan gets his path to exile and the next turn i drop emrakul.

G2 : side : +4 calice of the void -3 Ancient Stirrings -primeval titan
I drop a turn 2 calice @1, 3 turns later he will say GG showing me hand with 6/6 cards with 1cc.

Feeling good until here i'll add the full report when i'll be at the end of the tourney.

ActionJunkie
09-08-2011, 10:39 PM
Why no Amulet of Vigor? It kicked butt in Modern 12-post. Seems like it could possibly be even more helpful in Legacy. Pretty insane how fast you can hard-cast Emrakul w/ a couple Amulets and a cloudpost.

meow
09-09-2011, 02:56 AM
it seems sexy indeed but in the facts i use to play around it like making a turn 1 GSZ for dryad turn 2 wall of roots/overgrow battlement/explore while i play a cloud post and also the last thing that makes me not playing it is that almost everytime i side in G2 i will play a Chalice of the Void for 1 (not everytime but in most cases). dunno how you guys feel about this card?

SpikeyMikey
09-09-2011, 09:55 AM
I feel that Amulet of Vigor is bad. GreenPost is not the fastest deck in the format. In fact, it's the slowest. Rather than trying to speed it up to the level of other decks (which I feel is impossible without Exploration and Crop Rotation) in Modern, your goal should be to slow them down.

The GreenPost decks at the PT performed poorly against the entire field. They lost to aggro and they lost to combo. This is, in my opinion, because they were trying to speed themselves up to race combo (and failed) and in doing so, gave up all the cards that make them good against aggro. The version that made T8 ran 0 Amulet and a full compliment of walls. That's not a coincidence. He'd have been even better off had he been packing white for additional board against combo, rather than relying on Through the Breach to race.

ActionJunkie
09-09-2011, 10:15 AM
I feel that Amulet of Vigor is bad. GreenPost is not the fastest deck in the format. In fact, it's the slowest. Rather than trying to speed it up to the level of other decks (which I feel is impossible without Exploration and Crop Rotation) in Modern, your goal should be to slow them down.

The GreenPost decks at the PT performed poorly against the entire field. They lost to aggro and they lost to combo. This is, in my opinion, because they were trying to speed themselves up to race combo (and failed) and in doing so, gave up all the cards that make them good against aggro. The version that made T8 ran 0 Amulet and a full compliment of walls. That's not a coincidence. He'd have been even better off had he been packing white for additional board against combo, rather than relying on Through the Breach to race.

Fair and good points.

But there was a deck that finished just outside of the top-8 w/ 22 points that ran x4 Amulet and Through the Breach. Makes me wonder if some # of Amulets is ideal for the deck.

SpikeyMikey
09-09-2011, 11:06 AM
Fair and good points.

But there was a deck that finished just outside of the top-8 w/ 22 points that ran x4 Amulet and Through the Breach. Makes me wonder if some # of Amulets is ideal for the deck.

Let's say you're playing Deadguy. And you're in a meta that contains a fair amount of storm. Now you could beef up your discard. You could run something like Glowrider. You could main Chalice of the Void. You could even accept the G1 and just continue to pack SFM and play a slow, midrangey kind of game and load up with 8 hate cards in board. Or... you could run Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Negator and Flesh Reaver main to try and race the storm decks. Of course, you lose to the aggro decks in the metagame now, because Negator and Reaver are terrible against aggro. And you don't really actually race storm all that often, because they're naturally faster than you anyway. But sometimes, you get that double ritual into Negator/Reaver opening and man, look how fast you can beat then!!!

That's what Through the Breach and Amulet of Vigor are to me, Negator and Ritual. It's the wrong way to fight the meta. Will it be effective sometimes? Yes. Will it be effective most times? No.

Kich867
09-10-2011, 07:20 PM
I just did a search for Scapeshift in this thread and found no mention of it. Perhaps it's been discussed in another thread elsewhere and deemed unusable, but it seems like scapeshift would be pretty nuts. Perhaps you'd have to drop posts (like glimmerpost) for forests to ensure that double green, but I wonder how problematic that would be regardless. I suppose it wouldn't really speed it up anyways, but at least in my head it would seem to make it somewhat more resilient in that you aren't giving people turn after turn to ghost quarter / destroy your posts, you're giving them one? Or is that sort of resiliency not even needed, as 12post is hard to deal with anyways?

SpikeyMikey
09-10-2011, 09:27 PM
I just did a search for Scapeshift in this thread and found no mention of it. Perhaps it's been discussed in another thread elsewhere and deemed unusable, but it seems like scapeshift would be pretty nuts. Perhaps you'd have to drop posts (like glimmerpost) for forests to ensure that double green, but I wonder how problematic that would be regardless. I suppose it wouldn't really speed it up anyways, but at least in my head it would seem to make it somewhat more resilient in that you aren't giving people turn after turn to ghost quarter / destroy your posts, you're giving them one? Or is that sort of resiliency not even needed, as 12post is hard to deal with anyways?

It's a known quantity. The double green is not an issue if you're running a wall version. But it's not better than Titan generally. So there's not really a need for it unless you're trying to go combo with the deck.

Maveric78f
09-13-2011, 07:41 AM
Lately, I'm trying a list that tries to optimize the threat density in order to make TtB and Summoning Trap the real kills of the deck, and finally 12-Post is just the way to make Titan kill 1 turn later.

Lands: 12-post 12-colours 1 tutor
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
7 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+Reap and Sow)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 7 (+Terastodon/Primus/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
3 Reap and Sow

Cheats: 8
4 Through the Breach
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 12
4 Primeval Titan
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Terastodon
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Reap and Sow
SB: 3 Punishing Fire

The aggro MU is probably more difficult since I don't play walls and Wurm anymore.
The control is as good, maybe even better. Mana denial is good . And I can play my kills as instants.
The combo MU is much better with a real mana denial strategy MD, even reinforced in SB and the ability to play as an instant too.

My main problem here is that Primus is poor off Trap and Terastodon is poor off TtB (well, it depends on the MU).

Since I don't play tutors (nor diggers) for Cloudposts, I wonder if I could cut partially the Vesuva slots and replace with some more acceleration.
I'm also wondering if I would not like a fully creature-based mana acceleration in order to cheat Summoning Trap more often. But I don't want creatures that I might lose to Doom's Blade or something like this. I'm thinking about cards such as Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf.

Maveric78f
09-13-2011, 07:41 AM
Lately, I'm trying a list that tries to optimize the threat density in order to make TtB and Summoning Trap the real kills of the deck, and finally 12-Post is just the way to make Titan kill 1 turn later.

Lands: 12-post 12-colours 1 tutor
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
7 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+Reap and Sow)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 7 (+Terastodon/Primus/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
3 Reap and Sow

Cheats: 8
4 Through the Breach
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 12
4 Primeval Titan
2 Woodfall Primus
2 Terastodon
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Reap and Sow
SB: 3 Punishing Fire

The aggro MU is probably more difficult since I don't play walls and Wurm anymore.
The control is as good, maybe even better. Mana denial is good . And I can play my kills as instants.
The combo MU is much better with a real mana denial strategy MD, even reinforced in SB and the ability to play as an instant too.

My main problem here is that Primus is poor off Trap and Terastodon is poor off TtB (well, it depends on the MU).

Since I don't play tutors (nor diggers) for Cloudposts, I wonder if I could cut partially the Vesuva slots and replace with some more acceleration.
I'm also wondering if I would not like a fully creature-based mana acceleration in order to cheat Summoning Trap more often. But I don't want creatures that I might lose to Doom's Blade or something like this. I'm thinking about cards such as Wood Elves and Farhaven Elf.

Maveric78f
09-15-2011, 06:09 AM
Since I'm pissed off by not being able to choose between Primus and Terastodon, I've decided to give up the red splash and give a try to Quicksilver Amulet it's a well curves 8 manas combo.

Lands: 10-post 12-colours 1 tutor
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+Reap and Sow)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 8 (+Terastodon/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
4 Reap and Sow

Cheats: 8
4 Quicksilver Amulet
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 13
4 Primeval Titan
4 Terastodon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
SB: 4 Wurmcoil Engine

Maveric78f
09-15-2011, 06:10 AM
Since I'm pissed off by not being able to choose between Primus and Terastodon, I've decided to give up the red splash and give a try to Quicksilver Amulet it's a well curves 8 manas combo.

Lands: 10-post 12-colours 1 tutor
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+Reap and Sow)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 8 (+Terastodon/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
4 Reap and Sow

Cheats: 8
4 Quicksilver Amulet
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 13
4 Primeval Titan
4 Terastodon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
SB: 4 Wurmcoil Engine

meow
09-15-2011, 07:36 AM
nice idea, Maveric, the only thing that upsets me is to rely on Quicksilver Amulet as it's an artifact.

i see quisilver amulet as the other choice for GSZ, i don't know how you see it maveric. On this point i would state that :

Quicksilver amulet is good because you can use it more than just once( also when it's on table your creatures won't be countered anymore like a vial but i feel this will "kill" summoning trap on your game plan at this point) . I prefere GSZ because unlike Quicksilver amulet that can be destroyed/countered, GSZ can "only" be countered (i mean on the play of course both can be forced to discard). And last thing is that you break the good part of emrakul and ulamog putting them into play this way (it's not like if having emrakul without an extra turn would suck that bad but still it hurts :) )

How do you feel about it?

Maveric78f
09-15-2011, 08:24 AM
Not tested as far as now. But I would not compare directly Amulet and GSZ. GSZ does much more and Amulet is cheaper (and well-curved). Now you don't need 6 manas to start playing. Also Amulet a permanent that can can activated as an instant, meaning that it can be considered as a 8CC sorcery. Amulet is more comparable with TtB. The good thing about Amulet is that it enables to decide between Terastodon and Primus. While Amulet and TtB are evenly good with titan/eldrazi (haste and permanent are equally strong), Amulet is better with Terastodon while TtB is better with Primus. Since Summoning Trap is permanent, Amulet looks better. Also we don't need the splash anymore.

The loss of GSZ is not that huge. And I think it's still possible to add it in addition of GSZ and Amulet. It would rather replace SfT*2 and Terastodon*1 and Emrakul*1 (and 1 dryad arbor instead of 1 forest).

Maveric78f
09-15-2011, 08:24 AM
.

meow
09-20-2011, 04:24 AM
i guess this thread is dead after the new bans, i'm a bit disapointed as i didn't see post as the deck that would beat "anyone" i would have seen a ban of eye of ugin mby but cloud just kills us. Also i liked a lot gsz but we could survived without him...

Maveric78f
09-20-2011, 04:59 AM
My last version can survive quite well to the new bans. Let's just play the Urza's engine instead. I even wonder if it's not better (the only problem I see is the fact that we can't gain life anymore with Titan).

Lands: 24
11 Urza's lands
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+ Mwonvuli Acid-Moss)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 8 (+Terastodon/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss

Cheats: 8
4 Quicksilver Amulet
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 12
4 Primeval Titan
4 Terastodon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Wurmcoil Engine

Maveric78f
09-20-2011, 04:59 AM
My last version can survive quite well to the new bans. Let's just play the Urza's engine instead. I even wonder if it's not better (the only problem I see is the fact that we can't gain life anymore with Titan).

Lands: 24
11 Urza's lands
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

Acceleration: 8 (+ Mwonvuli Acid-Moss)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Search for Tomorrow

Mana severance: 8 (+Terastodon/Eldrazis)
4 Beast Within
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss

Cheats: 8
4 Quicksilver Amulet
4 Summoning Trap

Kills: 12
4 Primeval Titan
4 Terastodon
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard: 15
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Wurmcoil Engine

meow
09-20-2011, 05:54 AM
i agree on the hard loss of being able to gain life with glimmer vs fast decks it would buy you the needed turns to win. Maveric tell us your feeling after some testing i'm working on it to see if i can pull someting out too, but i guess i will stay with the 8 walls as a mana acceleration.

Just me
09-20-2011, 08:10 AM
Wow, that blows, banning Cloudpost...

Anyway, Urza lands are a good replacement but they're a little slower and ramp to 9 mana perfectly, in other words, Tooth and Nail.

So unless you also run 8 Wallls, I believe that urzatron works better with Tooth and Nail as it does with Eldrazi. The only good part of Eldrazi is the land that fetches them, which can be found via Primeval Titan, creating a nice line of play. But singles can and should suffice I think.

The lifeloss can be mitigated with more Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine in the main, I think. But the issue will be one of finding the right mix of spells vs threats (the everpresent problem of ramp. Ramping into more ramp doesn't do anything but having to many threats to ramp into creates to much mulligans and actually reduces speed and reliability).

Maveric78f
09-20-2011, 08:28 AM
I propose Urza's lands only in order to have Titan-kill. I could play only 6 urza's lands in this deck. I simply can afford to play more of them. Titan is the center card of the deck, not Emrakul, not the Urza-tron. Tooth and Nail is really too expensive even if I like its ability to fetch for 2 creatures for 7. But, you hardly ever need 2 creatures on the board.

Mr. Safety
09-20-2011, 08:35 AM
The only issue with Urza-Tron is the need to have all 3 pieces, making Ghost Quarter that much more effective against it. Ditto with Tectonic Edge, but not as much. I think your fundamental turn just got slower, which is exactly what Wizards was looking for, I think.

Just me
09-21-2011, 04:16 AM
I propose Urza's lands only in order to have Titan-kill. I could play only 6 urza's lands in this deck. I simply can afford to play more of them. Titan is the center card of the deck, not Emrakul, not the Urza-tron. Tooth and Nail is really too expensive even if I like its ability to fetch for 2 creatures for 7. But, you hardly ever need 2 creatures on the board.

You do realize that resolving Tooth and Nail wins the game on the spot? Whereas resolving a Primeval Titan no longer does that since it cannot fetch the lifegain to cushion to the next turn your opponent will get after resolving titan. To cast titan almost equals casting T&BN anyway right now.

Big difference is that you need 3 Urza-lands + 2 sources of green which is a huge difference to 2 Cloudpost / Vesuva and 2 green (either lands or creatures). And full Urzatron + 3 green might cast an early titan but is also casts Tooth and Nail with entwine. To me, it's rather obvious which is better...

I also think that the walls are kinda a must now, since it buys time vs aggro and creates mana. And they do allow faster big plays like Titan without having the full Tron.

What is the best T&N kill though? Kiki-Jiki and Deceiver Exarch I think. But there are other options which might fit better vs some decks (Sundering Titan comes to mind). One Eternal Witness would be good as well.

But eitherway. the thread seems obsolete with the title twelvepost....

Mr. Safety
09-21-2011, 10:28 AM
If Primeval Titan is such a hinging point in the deck, expect folks to bring hate.

Flashfreeze
Mana Leak
Essence Scatter
Spell Pierce


Of those 4, only Essence Scatter is really unplayable...because Tooth and Nail gets around actually 'playing' a creature. So you may counter a P-Titan only to lose to T&N.

Just me
09-22-2011, 03:20 AM
After the banning of Cloudpost, I think there will not be much hate in the near future of this deck, at least not stricklty aimed at it. Incidental hate is a different beast. But if it's counters that have you worried, I suggest adding some copies of Boseju, Who Shelters All (spelling?).

Maveric78f
09-22-2011, 04:14 AM
My take on this deck is very different from yours. I don't plan to assemble the tron before playing Titan. I want to reach the critical mana mass (4 for amulet, 5 for TtB and 6 for Titan/ST) and win from there. The urza-tron reason to be is to make you win once you've put Titan into play. It's a creature cheating deck, not a tron deck!

If you go the T&N route, then your game plan is completely different. You're not going to play spells such as Search for Tomorrow or Sakura Tribe Elder because 1-mana ramp is not enough to reach the 9-mana critical mass required to win. Instead, you're going to play land tutors or walls and your game plan will rely on gathering either all 3 tron elements, or the overgrown battlements. If you can't do this, you will basically do nothing. My opinion (I think you got it) is that it's too slow/fragile.

I'm not far from thinking that the two approaches of the deck should have different threads, because the builds and the game plans are going to be very different.

Plus, I do not agree with the death of the land destruction theme in Modern. It's still a very good weapon against control, that needs to reach 4-mana before doing anything broken.

Just me
09-22-2011, 06:34 AM
If any deck, it's control that is setup rather well to protect against LD with discard and/or counters.

And using effects like TtB and the Amulet, especially the Amulet, seems iffy. BUT, I understand it's a different take on the deck. More akin to Reanimator but without the vulnerability towards the GY. If I think about in those terms, it suddenly becomes more appealing for some reason.

264505
09-24-2011, 06:18 AM
This deck really has to go one of 2 ways now. Its just not fast enough to power out quick Eldrazi and expect to win, but you can play with Tooth and Nail or switch to the much more controlling version of UG Tron. I think you could easily start from the GP Vienna List and work from there for an update. The deck loses Moment's Peace, but its a good start.

23 LANDS
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Breeding Pool
4 Urza's Tower
3 Tolaria West
3 Urza's Mine
1 Academy Ruins
1 Forest
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Lonely Sandbar

3 CREATURES
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion

23 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Remand
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Condescend
3 Repeal
3 Moment's Peace
1 Life from the Loam

11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Simic Signet
3 Chrome Mox
2 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt

SIDEBOARD
1 Mindslaver
1 Triskelion
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Ghost Quarter

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=236&d=115231

TheG
09-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Sorry guys,but what if the new gameplan would be Ramp (rampant grow& similar) >Ramp>Ramp>Scapeshift to MultipleUrzatron (not afected by "enters the b.field tapped (4tower+1mine+1PowerP. makes 17 Mana) + Ugin> Emrakul?

it would be better if we could search for Emrakul&play him the same turn but are 22 mana (4 tower+2mine+2plant+1Eye) so for scapeshift we need 9 lands on turn 4 (possible) including 1 Bosejzu to avoid counters on scapeshift.

ideal Gameplan

T1 land + Serarch for Tomorrow [suspended] T2 land (2) + Rampant Growth (3) T3 land (4) Serarch for Tomorrow (5) + Rampant Growth [Or similar] (6) + Kodama's Reach (7) T4 Land (8) 2 Rampant Growth [Or similar] ( 9 & 10 ) > SCAPESHIFT FTW

mhh what about Collective Voyage?

4eak
10-19-2011, 10:16 PM
If anyone is interested:

// Lands - 24
11 Forest
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
1 Eye of Ugin

// Wall Ramp - 12
4 Wall of Roots
4 Vine Trellis
4 Overgrown Battlement

// Generic Stall - 8
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Wurmcoil Engine

// Tron and Eye Tutor Package - 12
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Primeval Titan

// Eldrazi - 4
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

We don't have Glimmerpost life gain, so we need blockers. The Wall ramp is excellent at helping us live and ramp into bombs.

I think it is important for us to recognize that Eldrazi ramp decks are exceptionally good against control decks. If the presence of control decks rises in the metagame and other combo decks become too vulnerable, this deck should perform fairly well.


peace,
4eak

4eak
09-18-2012, 10:24 AM
Axebane Guardian will fit right into my list above. I assume something like:

-4 Solemn Sim
+4 Axebane

Walls make quite the ramp.

peace,
4eak

(nameless one)
09-18-2012, 12:08 PM
Axebane Guardian will fit right into my list above. I assume something like:

-4 Solemn Sim
+4 Axebane

Walls make quite the ramp.

peace,
4eak

Hey 4eak,

How are you doing with no red splash? Also, would you consider Summoning Trap? The deck has enough density of creatures that you can bait your walls to *control* decks for the Trap.

*I am actually not sure if Modern has blue or board as the premier control decks.*

4eak
09-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Adding a red splash and/or sweepers is perfectly reasonable.

Trap seems pretty awful. I don't fear counterspells. I look at Urzatron as having supreme inevitability. Acceleration and defense enable you to abuse that inevitability. The trick is to beating decks that can kill you before you reach inevitability. Control decks are very easy to beat (and the few tricks they do have can be answered) simply because they just can't kill us before we accelerate into our inevitability.

Going by TCDecks, I see Jund, Zoo, Delver Blade, and RUG are likely the top decks at this time. We aren't getting raced by other combo it seems. It is a series of aggro and aggro-control decks that we face. Those are the decks where we need to weigh the value of acceleration and defense (among various other properties).

I look at Walls as providing both acceleration and defense. Defensively, they do shit against flyers, but they are potent enough against many of the win cons in the above decks. The defense is not very impressive, but it isn't trivial. The acceleration is impressive. It has to be one of the best/fastest ways to consistently hit 15 mana in this format.


peace,
4eak

B.C.
09-18-2012, 04:48 PM
Here's my current list, which kicks total ass:

4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Tooth and Nail
4 Explore
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings

Davran
09-19-2012, 09:21 AM
Here's my current list, which kicks total ass:

4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Mine
12 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Tooth and Nail
4 Explore
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings

How are you doing against the current meta (i.e. RWU Delver, U/W Restoration Angel, Jund, RUG)? I've been playing U/W Tron since LSV ran it at the last GP and I'm feeling pretty outclassed by those decks.

B.C.
09-19-2012, 10:07 PM
To be honest, I've only tested against a handful of decks, but based on my early impressions, it's pretty good. Most decks I've played against aren't prepared for this deck.

aljiichiban
12-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Just wanted to share:

I was able to make top 4 in our local tourney of 19 players

I got the list from other links, but decided to do some revisions, so I came up with this:

Main
Urza's mine 3
Urza's tower 3
Urza's power plant 3
Eye of ugin 1
verdant catacombs 2
stomping ground 1
fire-lit thicket 1
rootbound crag 1
forest 11

overgrown battlement 4
wall of roots 4
oracle of mul daya 2
primeval titan 3
wurmcoil engine 2
urabrask, the hidden 1
emrakul the eons torn 1

utopia sprawl 3
expedition map 3
explore 4
primal command 1
karn liberated 1
tooth and nail 3
beast within 3

SB:
obstinate baloth 3
firespout 3
grafdigger's cage 3
surgical extraction 1
autums veil 2
nature's claim 3

swiss:

Jund 2-0
UR storm 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
BW tokens 1-2
jund- draw

top 8
vs RG tron 1-2

top 4
vs UWR delver 0-2

-----------------------------
I got the list from other links, but decided to do some revisions


card choices:

3 Utopia sprawl - it makes the deck ramp faster, so I decided to do a 3/3 split of maps and this. It has the potential to cast primeval by turn 3 and tooth and nail w/o entwine.
3 primeval titan, 2 wurmcoil engine - the wurmcoils are ther to somehow address aggro decks and burn. I also don't want to have 2 primeval titans in the opening hand.
3/1 split of tooth and nail/primal command - helps look for creatures that you need and 4 tnt seems too many.
3-of Urza lands - since this deck has many green spells, i decided to put more forests in order to support the turn 1 utopia sprawl.
Karn Liberated - he's karn and most decks don't have answer for him. I was contemplating if I'll move it to the sb and replace it with Ulamog.

I'm also thinking to replace the crag with another stomping ground.
Suggestions are welcome for discussion.

Lord Seth
12-26-2012, 06:24 PM
Why no Grove of the Burnwillows? It seems to be the best R/G land for Urzatron.

aljiichiban
12-27-2012, 10:33 AM
Why no Grove of the Burnwillows? It seems to be the best R/G land for Urzatron.

It doesn't go well with Utopia sprawl, since it only enchants forest lands. Same reason why I cut the 4-of Urza lands to 3-of.

4eak
05-04-2014, 06:43 PM
Another mana wall came out since the last time I tried this deck. It is a crazy simple deck at this point:

// Lands - 24
11 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest)
4 Urza's Power Plant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Power%20Plant)
4 Urza's Mine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Mine)
4 Urza's Tower (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Tower)
1 Eye of Ugin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eye%20of%20Ugin)

// Wall Ramp - 20
4 Wall of Roots (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wall%20of%20Roots)
4 Vine Trellis (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vine%20Trellis)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Overgrown Battlement (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Battlement)
4 Axebane Guardian

// Tron and Eye Tutor Package - 12
4 Expedition Map (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Expedition%20Map)
4 Sylvan Scrying (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sylvan%20Scrying)
4 Primeval Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Primeval%20Titan)

// Eldrazi - 4
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Emrakul,%20the%20Aeons%20Torn)
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Kozilek,%20Butcher%20of%20Truth)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ulamog,%20the%20Infinite%20Gyre)

Play walls and tron, find eye or natural draw a bomb, win. It is incredibly consistent at generating lots of mana. You can cast bombs without Tron, and you can cast bombs without Walls. Getting 10-20 mana (7 + 13 for Emrakul recursion) is actually easiest with a combination of walls and tron. Walls are decent defense in the early game, which is nice for a Tron deck (which traditionally can be weak against very fast aggro decks).


peace,
4eak

Lord Seth
05-05-2014, 12:41 AM
Another mana wall came out since the last time I tried this deck. It is a crazy simple deck at this point:

// Lands - 24
11 Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest)
4 Urza's Power Plant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Power%20Plant)
4 Urza's Mine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Mine)
4 Urza's Tower (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza's%20Tower)
1 Eye of Ugin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eye%20of%20Ugin)

// Wall Ramp - 20
4 Wall of Roots (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wall%20of%20Roots)
4 Vine Trellis (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vine%20Trellis)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Overgrown Battlement (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Overgrown%20Battlement)
4 Axebane Guardian

// Tron and Eye Tutor Package - 12
4 Expedition Map (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Expedition%20Map)
4 Sylvan Scrying (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sylvan%20Scrying)
4 Primeval Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Primeval%20Titan)

// Eldrazi - 4
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Emrakul,%20the%20Aeons%20Torn)
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Kozilek,%20Butcher%20of%20Truth)
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ulamog,%20the%20Infinite%20Gyre)

Play walls and tron, find eye or natural draw a bomb, win. It is incredibly consistent at generating lots of mana. You can cast bombs without Tron, and you can cast bombs without Walls. Getting 10-20 mana (7 + 13 for Emrakul recursion) is actually easiest with a combination of walls and tron. Walls are decent defense in the early game, which is nice for a Tron deck (which traditionally can be weak against very fast aggro decks).


peace,
4eakI tried this iteration out a little. It seems rather underwhelming compared to regular GR Tron.

First, it flat-out dies to combo. Granted, regular GR Tron has issues with combo, but it's still better than this, which basically has nothing relevant whatsoever until it can cast an Eldrazi or Primeval Titan, by which time decks like Splinter Twin or Storm have already won.

As for aggro, I do think that this deck is better against non-Affinity aggro in general compared to GR Tron. The problem is that Affinity is the #1 aggro deck by a significant margin, so tossing that matchup seems dubious. And tossing that matchup this deck does, because Affinity slaughters it. Lacking cards like Pyroclasm or Oblivion Stone that can instantly knock Affinity out of the game, its only hope is to build up defender walls to hold Affinity off. The problem is that Affinity just speeds past them with their flying creatures or Etched Champion.

4eak
05-05-2014, 02:22 AM
I agree that it has problems against combo. I agree it isn't the best version of tron for the current metagame, which I believe is MUC tron, by a long shot. I'm pretty sure it is the best version of mono green tron; wherever mono green tron is actually worth playing, I'm betting it would be in virtue of the consistency of its mana production and wall defense. I'm not advocating the deck for the metagame, but I will advocate a certain build as being the reason to play it. That was really my only purpose. Metagames change. One day, this deck may become a reasonable option (and maybe it won't).

I'm not convinced affinity slaughters this deck at all. In my testing (I spend a lot of time with affinity, about a decade), usually only a god-hand of affinity would slaughter the deck (and most decks lose to god-hands of affinity). It's a tight match, but I don't think it tosses match at all. I agree that other versions of tron do much better against affinity.

Again, I'm not convinced mono green tron is the right way to go at the moment. This will just sit on the backburner for me.

peace,
4eak

LurkingMatt
05-05-2014, 07:21 AM
I agree that it has problems against combo. I agree it isn't the best version of tron for the current metagame, which I believe is MUC tron, by a long shot. I'm pretty sure it is the best version of mono green tron; wherever mono green tron is actually worth playing, I'm betting it would be in virtue of the consistency of its mana production and wall defense. I'm not advocating the deck for the metagame, but I will advocate a certain build as being the reason to play it. That was really my only purpose. Metagames change. One day, this deck may become a reasonable option (and maybe it won't).

I'm not convinced affinity slaughters this deck at all. In my testing (I spend a lot of time with affinity, about a decade), usually only a god-hand of affinity would slaughter the deck (and most decks lose to god-hands of affinity). It's a tight match, but I don't think it tosses match at all. I agree that other versions of tron do much better against affinity.

Again, I'm not convinced mono green tron is the right way to go at the moment. This will just sit on the backburner for me.

peace,
4eak

Yeah had a similiar revelation @ GP Amsterdam last year.

Kindly note that I found the deck lacking without Tutors and went for
Tooth and Nail. MIGHT have been the wrong one but
I got nostalgic. And I can win the turn it resolves. ;)

Last minute decision to go for Mono G Tron with TnN and 2 WinCombos
instead of Mono U which I had enough experience with. Crashed due to
missing experience and bad SB.

Still I gave only away one Match vs Aggro and that was due to Zoo being
faster then me and having nut draws with at least two Paths each game.
The defense is solid vs most decks (affinity will swiftly try to overwhelm you
with poison and flyers but that's what the SB is for).

Went back to mono u tron but once in a while I pick this variant up since
T3 Titan or protected T4 Titan/ TnN are back breaking and is really nice in
specific metas.

Regards,
Matt

Lord Seth
05-05-2014, 09:08 AM
I agree that it has problems against combo. I agree it isn't the best version of tron for the current metagame, which I believe is MUC tron, by a long shot.No, I disagree. The best Tron deck for the current metagame remains GR Tron.


I'm pretty sure it is the best version of mono green tron; wherever mono green tron is actually worth playing, I'm betting it would be in virtue of the consistency of its mana production and wall defense.Hrm, well there is a deck people often call "monogreen Tron" that's basically GR Tron minus Pyroclasm, but that one isn't quite monogreen either because it seems to always run some Red cards in the sideboard with a singleton Grove of the Burnwillows maindeck.


I'm not convinced affinity slaughters this deck at all. In my testing (I spend a lot of time with affinity, about a decade), usually only a god-hand of affinity would slaughter the deck (and most decks lose to god-hands of affinity). It's a tight match, but I don't think it tosses match at all. I agree that other versions of tron do much better against affinity. I did testing and I was struck by just how much Affinity stomped this deck. It really has no way to stop a flying creature or Etched Champion in a quick enough manner. And while admittedly those by themselves present a slow clock, all the deck has to do is get Cranial Plating or Arcbound Ravager to pump up that creature enough to kill you before you can get an Eldrazi out. Sure, if Affinity doesn't have an evasive creature and a Cranial Plating/Arcbound Ravager it has issues (though Steel Overseer+Inkmoth Nexus can get out of hand surprisingly quickly), but an evasive creature+Cranial Plating/Arcbound Ravager is a pretty common hand for Affinity, not a "god hand."

JDK
05-05-2014, 11:03 AM
No, I disagree. The best Tron deck for the current metagame remains GR Tron.
Which is still bad for the current metagame, unfortunately.

Lord Seth
05-05-2014, 02:02 PM
Which is still bad for the current metagame, unfortunately.GR Tron got Top 8 at the Bazaar of Moxen (307 players) several days ago.

JDK
05-05-2014, 02:37 PM
GR Tron got Top 8 at the Bazaar of Moxen (307 players) several days ago.
That doesn't mean it's good in the meta. There's way too much Twin out there.

Mono G Beats also made Top8, so go figure. :D