[Deck] Bant

[Pact]

Bant has been a major player in legacy since its inception. Bant put 2 lists in the top 8 of the first legacy gp in 2005. It then swelled in popularity sometime in 09-10 spawning several variations of itself including bant aggro, bant cbtop, nopro bant, bant survival. More recently, it won GP providence two months ago. It shouldn't come as a shock then that bant is at least a player in the modern metagame.

Stripped of most of the blue core of brainstorm/daze/force/swords, bant still kept its most recent weapons of jace/stoneforge/batterskull/misstep to keep aggro in check in the developing stages of this new format. With the formal announcement of the modern ban list, all of these cards were banned with the exception of batterskull which is unlikely to be viable without the possibility of being cheated in.

Despite everything, bant is one of the few blue decks remaining that can compete with the hordes of aggro and combo in these early days of the format. Bant has kept its strong creature base intact and relies on mostly the same type of tools it has always used. With top, natural order and survival banned, bant can now go in one of two directions: bant aggro and bant control. I will be mostly discussing the more controllish version of bant which centers around casting the format's strongest counterspell, cryptic command, but bant aggro is definitely very strong as well.



Bant



4 noble hierarch
3 tarmogoyf
1 qasali pridemage
1 gaddock teeg
3 knight of the reliquary
3 vendilion clique
1 rafiq of the many

4 ponder

2 spell snare
4 mana leak
4 cryptic command
1 bant charm

4 path to exile

3 green sun's zenith
1 elspeth, knight errant
1 sword of feast and famine

4 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
3 scalding tarn
3 breeding pool
2 temple garden
2 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
1 dryad arbor


3 rhox war monk
1 basilisk collar
1 threads of disloyalty
1 engineered explosives
1 wrath of god
2 spell pierce
2 meddling mage
1 ethersworn canonist
1 ghostly prison
1 ensnaring bridge
1 telemin performance



Creatures


The creature base should be familiar. Noble hierarch combined with green sun's zenith allow the deck to accelerate into turn 2 vendilion clique which is devastating against the many combo decks in the format right now. In the same vein, a turn 2 rhox war monk is devastating for aggro. Noble/gsz also help to allow the deck to cast spells while leaving up mana for spell snare/mana leak/bant charm, as the counterspells in the format are no longer free. And finally, noble also allows for cryptic command to be played, which otherwise is too expensive with a cost of 1uuu.

Tarmogoyf and knight of the reliquary round out the creature base as being the most cost efficient beaters in bant colors. Those who are familiar with legacy will note that knight no longer has karakas and maze of ith to play with. Tarmogoyf gets bigger slightly faster as brainstorm is replaced by a sorcery speed cantrip. Clique plays double duty on disruption now that the counterspells cost mana and is a 4-5 clock with noble, depending on how many times the opponent has fetched shocklands.

The singleton qasali is great to be tutored up with green sun whether you need enchantment/artifact destruction or just another exalted trigger. The singleton teeg should be tutored up to answer splinter twin, hive mind and dragonstorm. Teeg also incidentally stops repeal which is seeing a lot of play now. However, be careful because teeg doesn't play nice with elspeth and the cryptic commands. Teeg is also useful to disable the various other control decks in the format who are trying to build around mystical teachings/gifts ungiven/tezzeret engines. Notice that once bant has a decent board vs control, it can lay down the teeg safely. Bant's cryptics/elspeth are disabled but so are the opposing control deck's engines/wrath of god/cryptics etc. Finally rafiq closes out games faster than any other card bant has access to. This is important as the good combo decks will eventually claw their way past all the walls you put in front of them and if bant faces a very controlling deck, it'd rather assume the aggro role due to the nature of its creatures. Also, it is super fun to curve out noble, clique/rhox, rafiq dealing 10 damage on the third turn and killing on the fourth. A turn 4 kill races combo in modern.


Cantrip and removal


Without brainstorm, ponder steps up to the plate as the format's strongest cantrip. Similarly, without swords to plowshares, path to exile becomes the best removal available. The only competition to path is dismember but not only can bant not pay the black mana but life is now arguably a more important resource to manage because the shocklands form the basis of the manabase.


Counterspells


The counter suite includes spell snare, mana leak, bant charm, and cryptic command. Snare is a house just as it has always been. Mana leak is the de facto early turn counter of modern now that usual suspects are gone and opponents are rarely able to pay for it as the game is really being played and decided in the first 4 turns. While mana leak plays allstar, cryptic command is the backbone, doing all the hard work once mana leak burns out. Resolving a cryptic command usually leads to a game won as the four modes are all devastating. Again, mana leak is your go to counter in the early game and cryptic is your go to counter in the mid to late game. It's important to realize this while playing the deck as you can find yourself with a dead mana leak if they're hitting consistent land drops and you've had to path a creature or two. The singleton bant charm is obviously very versatile; allowing you to win counterwars and remove problem creatures without giving them a land drop. It also hits artifacts. I would advise against disrupting shoal as without instant speed cantripping (brainstorm/top) the deck can't reliably cast its alternate cost.


Tutor and utility


Green sun's zenith can obviously be used to tutor up business (goyf/knight/rhox/rafiq) or acceleration (dryad arbor/noble) or answers (qasali/teeg/trygon). It is one of the most powerful cards in the deck and likely to be one of if not the best tutor in the format. And elspeth replaces the hole that jace, the mind scuptor left behind. Jace beleren was tried out but drawing a card every turn was much weaker than the clock and versatility of elspeth. Garruk was tried out and actually worked out great but ultimately was replaced by rafiq. The reason for this is that while garruk is definitely great at what he does and can end up drawing a new full 7, it is likely better to just close out the games faster against the decks of this format. Finally, sword of feast and famine edged out the other equipment for having pro green and black, relevant against goyf/knight/nacatl/goforthethroat/smother and its triggers are great as well. Discard is useful to strip control's counters and any other cards they might be holding up and to put combo into topdeck mode once you've slowed them down with hatebears and countermagic. Untapping lands is synergistic with both the ability to hold up cryptic mana and the pseudo vigilance it grants to an equipped dryad arbor/treetop.


Manabase


The mana base should be fairly self-explanatory. The most important mana to have available turn 1 is green because of noble and green sun, though blue for ponder is nice too. Afterwards, blue is the most intensive color. The basics speak to the possibility of blood moon/magus being major players in the format as well as path/ghost quarter. Also, I cut horizon canopy in favor of having 10 fetches so that the manabase was a little bit more consistent and knight can drop down faster as a monster, but it's probably right to play horizon canopy somewhere in the 75. Another land that should probably be in the deck is treetop village. The 3/3 trample ape can put it a lot of work with all the exalted triggers in the deck and the sword. Celestial colonade looks great but I cut it after being consistently unable to keep up cryptic mana while using it though it might also be right now that sword of feast and famine has been added.


Sideboard


Finally, the sideboard speaks to what are seen as the major players in the format. This is obviously not going to be concrete as the metagame is in flux for another 2 weeks until the pro tour and will likely still be in flux afterwards. Regardless, the important to note is that the format is new. Now this is obvious but you should be able to take two very important things away from that fact.

Firstly, new formats tend to be mostly aggro and combo decks. This is so because control decks have a hard time knowing what to control if the metagame is too fluid. Looking at the top decks right now, this is the apparently the case. Though obviously helped in no small part by the banning of jace, mental misstep, stoneforge mystic and ancestral visions. Secondly, new formats tends to have people playing really random decks. This is so because it is not clear to everyone yet which decks are the best, the top tier. And even if it's clear that one or two decks are really good, it is hard to stop people from wanting to experiment. A new format is a deckbuilder's wet dream, especially one with such a huge pool of cards. Now these two points lead us to want two things from our sideboard: answers to aggro/combo and answers that are as broad as possible such that you can answer as many decks as possible.

The aggro package: rhox/basilisk collar/threads/ee/wrath. Rhox war monk is your go to guy against aggro. He does a good job of not dying to a single burn spell whether it be punishing fire/bolt etc. He gains you life on turn 2 as you drop him on defense and god forbid he starts to swing in with multiple exalted triggers and possibly double strike as well. Basilisk collar is cheap and does the same job of stalling the zoo/burn deck into the lategame where you can win by stabilizing on life and casting cryptic command. Threads and ee are solely geared towards the zoo matchup, likely to be the best aggro deck in the format. Wrath cleans up the mess on turn 3 or 4, helping you stabilize behind a single goyf, knight or rhox.

The combo package: spell pierce/meddling mage/canonist/ghostly prison/ensnaring bridge/telemin performance. Spell pierce is obvious and amazing. Meddling mage is the most versatile hate as you name emrakul in 12 post/elves, dragonstorm, hive mind, living end, pyromancer's ascention, splinter twin (or kiki if you've already gotten teeg into play). Canonist slows down pyromancer, hive mind, elf combo, dragonstorm, all in red. Ghostly prison is the hardest hate you can play against splinter twin and can play double duty against aggro. Ensnaring bridge completely stops emrakul from attacking. And finally, telemin performance is a my own techy card to play against 12 post, dragonstorm, pyromancer. Against 12 post you stand to grab an emrakul which is hilarious. Against dragonstorm and pyromancer, you win on resolution, decking them on the spot.






Links to bant lists that have placed in modern:

Aggro bant at tcgplayer 75k championship (8/14/11)
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=896741

[Bignasty197]

A huge strength of Legacy Bant is the fact that it can play aggressive creatures while having the free counterspells. Without any free counters, this deck loses quite a bit of efficiency and is really just a bad zoo deck. I think a better approach to this deck would be making it more controlling. Cryptic Command should probably be a 4-of because it deals with most everything you want it to. I even think a version of the old Mythic Bant deck from the Shards/Zendikar standard could be pretty good.

[Final Fortune]

I agree, BANT's appeal is accelerating into Cryptic Commands, you'll be playing Vendilion Clique to discard Mana Leak and resolve Cryptic Command vs. U.dec for the win quite often. I think you also need to consider splashing /r for Wild Nacatl and adding a Celestial Colonade for Knight of the Reliquary.

Also, I think you need more 4c mana sinks for all of the accel in your deck, if you aren't going to play Cryptic Command then Elspeth definitely need to be like a 3 of.

[Maveric78f]

I'd prefer a split of Elspeth and Garruk, Primal Hunter. With 29 potential mana producers, you can afford 1 or 2 5CC bombs in your deck.

[perm]

Can you find room for bant charm? That card seems like a powerhouse in modern, taking care of just about anything

[Mr. Safety]

^^^ditto, what he said^^^

Don't forget about counterspells like Dispel, Delay, Remand, and Familiar's Ruse.

[Final Fortune]

Oh man, Familiar's Ruse and Vendilion Clique is like an ultra combo.

[Mr. Safety]

You really need hard counters in this format due to Path granting land all over the place...so Ruse will most likely become a staple in creature-heavy bant lists that can return an Arbor/Noble/Clique to make it happen.

Also...how sexy is Voidslime in Bant? That and Bant Charm are really, really good in Bant. You have the acceleration to make it happen and it will provide the tools to really make a solid aggor/control Bant deck good.

Look at how good your curve can be:

Turn 1 Noble/GSZ into Arbor
Turn 2 Bant Charm/Voidslime/Rhox War Monk/Vendilion Clique/Familiar's Ruse
Turn 3 Cryptic Command/Rafig

Awesome...

[Pact]

@bignasty and final fortune

I agree completely with maxing out cryptic command. With noble/gsz and opposing paths, the game usually goes long enough for cryptic to be active and to replace mana leak's role as the primary counter. Not to mention that I was testing against a competent splinter twin pilot earlier and having more hard counters definitely would help the matchup.

On the note of adding wild nacatl, I completely disagree. The manabase is already fragile enough as is. You're stretched trying to get UU for deprive/clique and UUU for cryptic while assembling all 3 colors for bant charm/rhox/qasali etc. All the while, trying to protect yourself from blood moon/magus, both of which are very real in the format. Every splinter twin deck should be running moon effects as far as I'm concerned.

Celestial colonade should definitely be in the deck.

@final fortune and maveric

I'm loving Elspeth. Games just seem to end when she resolves. Two might be right but I'm really liking garruk as well. I completely forgot about him as he's new. Just like elspeth, he definitely would be great in both the aggro matchup (dropping a fresh 3/3) and the combo matchup (drawing into counters). The 1/1 split of elspeth and garruk is definitely going to be tested.

@perm and mr safety

I definitely like bant charm, but I worry it's too narrow. On the one hand, more creature removal, more artifact removal, countering instants are all great and having them all be options in 1 card is great. On the other hand, you're paying 3 mana for path/dispel and the actual combo pieces of the meta right now seem to lean mostly on enchantments and the cantrips to find them are sorceries. Also not an answer to blood moon. I really do like bant charm though and will likely end up testing it.

On the subject of counterspells, there should be 3 pierces/negates in the board. I don't like dispel for being too narrow. I don't think we can capitalize on the tempo enough to make remand good enough. Familiar's ruse is interesting. I see deprive as being the better of the two because the deck doesn't always a creature in play as funny as that sounds or does not want to bounce the creature that it has played. Consider you kept a counter heavy hand vs combo without noble hierarch. It's really hard to find the right time to drop a creature and when you do, you tend to want to keep the hate bear in play anyways. In a perfect world you can bounce arbor, but deprive does that too. Against aggro, again you might not want to bounce the creature that has been surviving all their removal. Having said all this, familiar's ruse with vendilion clique is beast. Voidslime looks very very promising. Nice find!

[Pact]

Edit: strange it double posted me.

[Final Fortune]

I haven't had any problems getting UU or UUU respectively on a 4c manabase, between 8 Fetchlands, 6 Shock Lands, 3 Basics, City of Brass, Noble Hierarch and GSZ for Noble Hierarch mana fixing isn't a big issue. BANT pretty much screams for 4 colors, IMO.

[Mr. Safety]

I haven't had any problems getting UU or UUU respectively on a 4c manabase, between 8 Fetchlands, 6 Shock Lands, 3 Basics, City of Brass, Noble Hierarch and GSZ for Noble Hierarch mana fixing isn't a big issue. BANT pretty much screams for 4 colors, IMO.

Doran?!?!?!? Dark Bant is calling your name with Tidehollow Sculler, Dark Confidant, and Doran...

@Pact: Bant Charm is a 2-3-of at most I think. It's good because it does these three things, whichever you need:

1) Nature's Claim (artifacts only, but no 4 life gain)
2) Condemn (bottom of library, but no life gain)
3) Dispel

I've also been a little dissapointed in Dispel...but it does happen to counter Second Sunrise and Cryptic Command for cheap. It wins you the counter war more easily in the mid-late game, but arguably Spell Pierce could do the same. The problem with Spell Pierce is that once Lotus Blooms come off suspend (dragonstorm, sunrise) they have all the mana they need to fight through it. Dispel is superior in that sense. I'm also thinking about testing Annul...should be a solid sideboard hate for blue decks.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think Black has as much to offer as Red, Wild Nacactl, Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer are amazing and Red fits the mana base better than Black because you just fetch for R/g Shockland, Cat and go and then fetch for U/w Shockland and you're off to the races.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Doran makes Rhox War Monk seriously badass...and the inclusion of Bob + Sculler or Thoughtsieze vs. the combo decks? Doran also, convieniently, makes Goyf bigger. Doran also lets you play Wild Nacatl WITHOUT mountains: Loam Lion.

[IthilanorStPete]

I rather like the potential here. Would it be viable to play Sovereigns of Lost Alara to set up for the Mythic combo?

[Pact]

It's funny that you bring up sovereigns of lost alara because I'm starting to lean on getting a slightly faster clock but keeping the blue heavy control shell. I've been testing having one copy of elspeth and garruk. And they're both huge bombs, especially together... If you have both out, you can angelic the 3/3 beast and use garruk to draw 6 cards! Living the DREAM. haha And that's assuming that your huge goyf/knight has been removed.

But I'm thinking of cutting garruk for rafiq and seeing if it's better to just close out the game faster vs combo as opposed to drawing 7 cards full of counterspells. Curving out turn 1: noble, turn 2 clique/rhox, turn 3 rafiq is ridiculous. They die on turn 4. You're racing combo with a control deck. That's mean.

Long story short, I'm probably going to test rafiq in garruk's slot. And I highly encourage you to try out the mythic combo as it's definitely in the same spirit. My initial thoughts are that 6 mana seems a little bit expensive. I tend to get uncomfortable when a card costs more than 4, but deck ran garruk without too many hiccups at 5cc, so you should definitely see how it plays out.

[CorpT]

I think there are a whole lot of possibilities here now. Cards I'm looking to explore:

Mirran Crusader
Spellskite
Green Sun's Zenith
Thrun

These are all cards that have been added to the Mythic/Bant cardpool recently. Combined with the existing shell and there seems like a whole lot of potential here. This is definitely an aggro deck, not a Cryptic Command kind of deck. But Spellskite allows you to be aggressive and still stay protected. Much like Glen Elandra did, but even better most of the time.

[Pact]

Updated the list in the op. New additions include maindeck rafiq, bant charm, and sword of feast and famine. The sideboard has been completely revamped. And the op has been cleaned up and reformatted.

Comments on the new cards: rafiq has been amazing. If he's allowed to stay on the field, I win on the spot or in the next turn or two. If he's removed, he protected the goyf/knight/rhox that is really doing all the work. I'm not missing garruk that much in his spot, especially since 5 mana is a bit much and he sometimes sat in my hand a little longer than I wanted.

Bant charm was mentioned by several people and has been good as well. The fact that it's both removal and counterspell has been great, as it helps to backup path on removal and it has won a counterwar or two over cryptic.

The sword is highly synergistic with the deck's purpose of holding up cryptic mana while disrupting them and putting up a clock. It's obviously funny with dryad arbor but makes every creature the deck lands a big threat. Even if all you have is a noble, you're still swinging with a 3/4.

The sideboard has been cleaned up to be more efficient though I wish I had like 5 more spaces. Telemin performance has been so funny and techy. I've won against a couple pyromancers but never grabbed an emrakul yet.

[Zunam]

I've build a more aggressive list inspired by the one in the opening post and the ones out of the MTGO dailies.
So far it is performing quite good. It' seems to have an OK matchup against 12-post and ZOO (what I can say from my limited testing :smile:)

// Lands
3 [DIS] Breeding Pool
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [M12] Forest (1)
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [M12] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
2 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [DDG] Treetop Village
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
3 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [M12] Mana Leak
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CMD] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
2 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [M10] Great Sable Stag
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [FNM] Rhox War Monk
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

Rafiq is really good in breaking Stand-Offs in your favor.

The Tectonic Edges are quite good against 12-post. 12-post seems to not have very consistent "Post-Draws" (even with their search like expedition map) so that you often have the chance to punish them with the Edges which allows you to race them.

Oblivion Ring in the sideboard was chosen because it is very versatile (removes almost everything which is quite good especially as the Meta is very random at the moment)

The Bojuka Bog in the sideboard wasn't used at all up to now in my testing. I'm not really sure if I should replace it with something else.

I would also like to squeeze in some Bant Charms but don't really know what to cut for them.

[Pact]

The list looks sweet. I like how you were able to fit in the utility lands: the horizon canopies, the tectonic and the treetop. Also, the 2 rhoxes md should make you better vs zoo. I would cut the bog as it's only good vs living end and opposing knights. Bant aggro definitely looks scary.


It seems that I was unnecessarily wary of the mythic combo of sovereigns of lost alara into eldrazi conscription. A player by the name of bryang has placed 3 times with it on magic online. The links to the list below. The plow unders look monstrous.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739320
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739342
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2739343

[Maveric78f]

Don't you have better to do with 6/8 manas than playing these type of cards?

[Zunam]

I don't like the idea of putting Sovereigns and Conscriptions into the deck, too. These cards are to expensive for the deck mana-cost wise in my opinion.

You can only realistically play them with help of Lotus Cobra and this is the major weakness. Because if your opponents knows it they will always go for the Cobra.

Casting them just with the help of your lands (and maybe Hierarchs) won't work often either because a lot of players seem to prepare against 12-post strategies by adding land destruction (e.g. Tec Edges).


On another note:
I am having a bit of a problem against very aggressive Mono-Red Decks. Does anyone have a good idea for a sideboard card against that matchup that doesn't require double-white?

[Mr. Safety]

Leyline of Sanctity
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Kitchen Finks
Martyr of Sands
Circle of Protection: Red
Dragon's Claw
Flashfreeze
Trinisphere


Of all of the ones listed, I think the best specifically red hate cards are BFT and CoP:Red. Leyline, Kitchen Finks, and Trinisphere have a lot of value across the board but are more of a mid-range answer to red decks.

Martyr of Sands has some promise, but I think BFT is superior. Dragon's Claw and Flashfreeze are there simply for posterity, as they do help, but they aren't worth slots (unless your metagame is just CHOCK FULL of red decks, and even then I think BFT is better.)

Bottom line: BFT and CoP:Red are your cards. They only cost :w: and :1::w: respectively, easily playable given a solid mana-base with Nobles (which I'm assuming you have...) My personal top pick is Kitchen Finks, which your mana-base should have no problem casting given the hybrid casting cost. I'd probably play some number of Finks in the maindeck (at least 1 if you're using GSZ) and BFT/Cop:Red x3-4 in the sideboard. Finks gives you pressure and life-gain, the combination of which is very effective given red has no real draw capabilty ATM (there's Browbeat...but that's what Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Cryptic Command are for.)

[Zunam]

Kitchen Finks is a really good suggestion. Don't know why I didn't think of them.

Finks is exactly what I was looking for - not only good against Red decks.

Additionally Mono Red doesn't seem to be a big factor anymore at the moment.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I think Burrenton Forge-Tender has some promise, and so does Leyline of Sanctity. The combo decks of the format (at least some of them) are red-based damage. Leyline hoses Pyromancer's Ascension/Swath. BFT can negate a Bogardan Hellkite from Dragonstorm. Finks works well, but I'm guessing you are already playing Rhox War Monks?

Honestly, if you're playing RWM's, then I would sideboard in Trinisphere. Trinisphere does a lot for you, as it slows down all the decks that could kill you before you stabilize. This includes RDW/Burn, pretty much all combos that use Rituals or Lotus Bloom (which is everything except Splinter Twin), and Zoo. You can function just fine by playing turn 1 Noble, turn 2 Trinisphere. Then you can play your 3-mana dudes (RWM, Vendi, Knights, or Goyfs for 3) and proceed to put a decent clock into place. I think it has relivance against many more decks than any of the other hate options.

This is just an opinion, mind you...I would test both Finks and Trinisphere.

[Bignasty197]

I've been testing this lately and I've liked it so far:

24 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Obstinate Baloth

12 Noncreature Spells
4 Mana Leak
2 Bant Charm
2 Plow Under
2 Eldrazi Conscription
2 Elspeth; Knight-Errant

24 Lands
4 Treetop Village
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
1 Celestial Colonnade<---may turn into City of Brass
1 Horizon Canopy

It has been fairly consistent so far. The Plow Unders just wreck some decks. I had a few games where I turn 3'd a Plow Under on the play and blew them out. Aside from their obvious uses, I have pretty much only used the V-Cliques to put back a Conscription before I attack. The Treetop Villages were awesome pretty much all the time except when I had 2 in my opener and needed to cast a Bird or Hierarch. The major weakness of this deck is decks with 4-6 Wrath effects. With the banning of Ponder and Preordain, I don't think there will be any halfway decent control decks that will exploit this one. I have noticed that many people like to kill themselves with their own mana bases, so the average starting life of this format is around 15-17.

The sideboard is still under construction but currently consists of Meddling Mages, War Monks, a Bribery or 2, a Plow Under or 2, Path to Exiles, Bant Charms and Nature's Claims. I may find a slot in the board for Engineered Explosives. I tested them and got an Explosives for 5 to kill a Gideon once.

[SpikeyMikey]

All In Bant is a deck that I originally developed in Legacy. It was a slightly faster version of NOPro Bant, using Rafiq of the Many instead of Natural Order (and a selection of creatures that worked well with double strike). Where a turn 1 accelerant would lead to a turn 3 Natural Order and a turn 5 goldfish, a turn 1 accelerant with Rafiq means that you're swinging for large numbers on turn 3 instead of turn 4 (the fastest you could turn Progenitus sideways). Turn 1 Noble Hierarch, turn 2 Rhox War Monk and turn 3 Rafiq was 10 on turn 3, making for a turn 4 goldfish; a full turn faster than Natural Order. Additionally, while the Rafiq angle was more fragile on board than a Progenitus, Rafiq doesn't cost the initial resource (green creature) that Natural Order does and is a threat of its own when topdecked. Finally, Rafiq dodged Spell Pierce, which at the time was rather prevalent, as well as Spell Snare (Daze was the only CMC 2 card in the deck).

Moving the deck to Modern naturally means losing some of the most powerful cards in the deck. Force of Will is unavailable and its closest replacement, Disrupting Shoal, is not ideal for the deck because of it's curve. Green Sun's Zenith is banned in Modern, forcing the deck to go back to playing with Birds of Paradise. Swords to Plowshares is easily replaced with Path to Exile.

There are two decks that need to be seriously addressed when constructing a new deck in Modern, Splinter Twin and Zoo. Splinter Twin runs very few creatures, none of which it wants to use as blockers. Because AIB goes all in on a single creature (unlikely something like Zoo which will send 3-4 threats into the red zone each turn), blockers can significantly slow the deck's clock. Twin's lack of blockers means that AIB maintains it's fast goldfish in the matchup. Only a little additional disruption is needed; if the deck is goldfishing turn 4-5, it's on par with Twin already.

Zoo can disrupt AIB's goldfish, however, Zoo has traditionally had issues with Rhox War Monk; the lifegain combined with a huge ass end makes it difficult for Zoo to deal with the Monk. However, this deck's creatures tend to be poor on defense, making Zoo - especially fast Zoo - a difficult matchup to deal with pre-board.

All In Bant

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise

4 Rhox War Monk
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Rafiq of the Many
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Emerge Unscathed

3 See Beyond

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Breeding Pool
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard


4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Mana Leak
2 Trygon Predator
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Bojuka Bog


All In Bant is a midrange Bant deck built to maximize the ideal line of play. This is similar to decks like Splinter Twin. You have a single line of play, significantly more powerful than any other available line, that you want to see every game (in this case, turn 1 accelerant, turn 2 beater, turn 3 pump) and redundancies for that line. Compare this to a deck like Zoo, which has lines which are more ideal than others (turn 1 Wild Nacatl, turn 2 double Nacatl, turn 3 triple Lightning Bolt) but is generally built to contain as much "good stuff" as possible. Twin is more explosive than redundant (although exceptionally redundant for a combo deck) and Zoo is more redundant than explosive (although still fairly explosive).

The difference between a deck like All In Bant and a deck like Splinter Twin is that AIB straddles the idea of an ideal line deck and a redundant good-stuff deck. It has an explosive ideal line and the potential for game-breaking topdecks but unlike other comboesque decks that back up the first combo with a second, similar combo (think Legacy Sneak and Show or Hive Mind), it backs it up with a very acceptable midrange aggro plan. This allows it to grind out games against decks that would otherwise stop the combo finish. In this regard, the closest comparison would be G/W Vengevival of a year ago.

Of course, the list above is a work in progress. I haven't devoted much time to the format since I haven't run across anything that I think is significantly better than Splinter Twin. But, with Geist of Saint Traft available now to replace the Cold-Eyed Selkie slot, I thought it might not hurt to toss this out there and see if anyone else was interested in the concept. Selkie is fantastic in Legacy where half the decks you face are blue, but in Modern, there is too much burn and too few Islands for Selkie to really shine. Geist provides the deck with a beater that deals more damage than RWM on turn 3 and helps get around decks that can drop a lot of blockers in your way.

The sideboard is likewise a matter of pure conjecture; I based it loosely off the same categories of cards I played in the Legacy board with the addition of Leyline to help combat Splinter Twin. Leyline works better here (in theory) than other options like Suppression Field, Torpor Orb or Ghostly Prison because it requires no mana; allowing you to stick to your curve while still disrupting a Twin player. The loss of Green SUn's Zenith and Enlightened Tutor hurt the flexibility of the sideboard, but Modern is less diverse than Legacy, so it's a workable trade.

[Mr. Safety]

4 Geists seems too many, considering the legendary status. You're not even playing 4 Rafiq's.

I think you can effectively use Knight of the Reliquary to fetch up Sejiri Steppe to ignore blockers. Brave the Elements works for all of your big beats, too. Knight, Monk, Rafiq, and Geist are all white creatures....and your 4/4 angel from Geist is white as well. The non-white threats (Trygon and Vendi) fly, so protection is largely unneccessary for them to connect in combat.

Emerge Unscathed seems decent as well, with the rebound being gravy, turning your deck into a pseudo-combo deck like Berserk Stompy.

All of those options (Sejiri Steppe, Brave the Elements, and Emerge Unscathed) are easy to work in there. I think with such an aggressive game plan, it makes sense to play those instead countermagic. You're not trying to stifle opposing tempo/strategy...your's is 'answer my threat or die.'

Curious where you take this...I've been contemplating Bant aggro for a while in modern.

[SpikeyMikey]

Emerge Unscathed is interesting. I think I'd still want to keep Pierce; it's good against things like Twin or removal (of course, so is EU). I wasn't thinking about the legendary status of Geist, i was just thinking I could use it where I used to have Selkie. 3 is probably the right call. I would probably go with either the 4th RWM or a 3rd VC in it's place.

I've played with Steppe in Rock in Legacy and was decidedly unimpressed with it. In this deck I can't see it functioning well because it doesn't fit the curve well. Of course, neither does EU, but EU counters removal and can be used on turn 4 to push through the last beats. A lot of times, when I was playing this deck's Legacy analogue, people would end up taking the first beat just because they didn't know it was coming. I'd be playing against something like Fish and I'd open with a Trop and a Hierarch. They'd make a Vial and I'd drop a Selkie or a pancake flipper. They'd make something like a Coralhelm or LoA, not realizing that my 3 drop was a significant threat. Then Rafiq would come down or Elspeth would come down and suddenly, I just drew a new hand or gained 7-10 life. At that point, they realize that they should've dismembered that 3 drop, but now it's too late; they're way behind the curve. Even if they start playing defensively, it's hard to stabalize at that point; I just have to keep the pressure on to win. EU accomplishes that and so might be an excellent choice for Modern.

[4eak]

Bant threads merged.


-4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

So I've played 4 random matches on MWS and 1 game against a Deathcloud opponent that left after 1. In the 4 matches, I went 8-1 in games (dropping a game to a Cascade Swans player with him at 2 life to a topdecked Wrath of God >.< ) and in almost every game, Spell Pierce was pivotal. I really want to run like 6 Pierces, they're just so amazing. It counters Damnation. It counters Seismic Assault. It counters everything I need it to and the fact that it's conditional almost never comes into play; this deck has too fast of a clock to reach late game. I only used Emerge Unscathed once, to push a KotR through a Sakura Tribe Elder against Deathcloud.

Geist has been really solid as well; most of the decks I played were very creature light and the hexproof gave them fits. I would imagine that against Zoo it'll be less stellar, but against Cruel Control and Swans, it was nearly unstoppable.

[KevinTrudeau]

I agree with Selkie not being maindeckable in the Modern port; not only is islandwalk less effective, but there's no Force of Will to draw into (or Mental Misstep for that matter). Geist, however, seems like an absolutely splendid replacement. Will for sure be gunning this on MWS soon, trying out a few things here and there.

Also, you've five RWM in your updated seventy-five.

[majikal]

Also, you've five RWM in your updated seventy-five.
It's just that good.

[KevinTrudeau]

It's just that good.

It really is, it just won me a game against BGW Junk.

Some initial thoughts on the list- it should probably be running a set of Horizon Canopy (card is the shit, the good shit); it needs the full set of Paths; Knight should be a four-of; Ghost Quarter seems pretty bad (should be Tec Edge, but I'd cut that slot altogether just to make room for the Canopies); since hitting a land that can tap for green on turn one is of the utmost importance, I think Hallowed Fountain should become a singleton; Mana Leak out of the board seems pretty bad (you don't really want to cast it in the early game because of its antergy with the deck, meaning you'll want to wait until later in the game to leave up 1U, just as it becomes worse)— Bant Charm seems a bit better in that role, although reactive non-Spell Pierce cards in general might just be bad; Trygon probably shouldn't be in the main or should probably be supplanted by the more synergistic Qasali Pridemage (not completely sure on that one, as evasion is actually quite important, but having Spell Pierce/Path up on turn two after playing an accelerant on turn one sounds pretty good).

My initial take on the Modern port of All-In Bant:

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise

2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Rafiq of the Many
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Spell Pierce
4 Path to Exile
2 See Beyond

SB:
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Torpor Orb (I'm pretty ignorant of the format, so I don't really know how narrow this is, but it's in for the Twin and Melira matchups)
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Aven Mindcensor (or some other random hatebear such as Leonin Arbiter, Meddling Mage, etc.; again, I'm quite ignorant of the metagame)

Those See Beyonds are the immediate flex slots, along with QP. I'll be trying out Goyf and some other stuff like Scryb Ranger, equipment, Bant Charm (which is sounding like the best option at the moment), and what Mr. Safety suggested. I haven't played around with those sweet proactive protection spells yet, so I'm concretely ignorant of their effectiveness.

Mystic Enforcer, quite possibly the coolest creature of all-time, is actually a potentially viable option in this deck. Unfortunately, he does seem pretty subpar from an objective standpoint, but I'll try to fit him in at some point just for old times' sake.

[Mr. Safety]

I'd drop a selkie or a pancake flipper...

I'm guessing this is a Trygon Predator? I got a little chuckle out of that...

The only reason I suggest Brave the Elements/Emerge Unscathed is because the proactive and aggressive game plan you have. It's 'answer this threat, or die', which is what I figured with the title of All in Bant.

I wasn't suggesting dropping the Spell Pierces. I just meant that it would be wiser to include the protection spells rather than additional countermagic in the form of Mana Leak, Rune Snag, etc. Spell Pierce looks golden, and I'm wracking my brain on how to play 6 of them. Dispel is an option, but a weak one I think. Spell Snare, ditto. Honestly, Negate is the only option, or Deprive. I still think those 2 slots would be better as Emerge Unscathed, but that's just me. Just some discussion.

[SpikeyMikey]

My initial Modern listing was heavily influenced by the Legacy deck, so there are definitely some things in the initial listing that could use some work.

I like Predator, it's worked well for me, but I've also played more matches against Affinity than anything else at this point. In Legacy, I run a 1/1 split but I also have GSZ. The main selling point of QPM is I can GSZ for it on turn 2 (with an accelerant) if I don't have a "real" threat in hand. I like the evasion and the interaction with Rafiq (double strike is some good with 'on damage' effects).

I've been hesistant on the Canopies but I can see trying it out. I've been afraid of the repeated damage from tapping them; I threw them in mostly as a good on-color land that I can use with KotR if it goes to late game. But I'd be willing to try cutting a Fountain and maybe the Hinterland Harbor to go up to 4. Mana disruption is much less of a worry in this format than it is in Legacy; I don't have to have redundancies of each color as Wasteland isn't a threat. In fact, the only real reason to run more than 1 each of the shock duals is that they're sacrificeable to KotR. That's why the GQ is in there as well; it's a KotR target.

Interestingly enough, in 10 matches so far, I have yet to see the Moorland Haunt and also yet to need it. It could've saved me in my 1 loss to Swans but him not drawing his second Wrath of God on an empty hand at 2 life with Geist and Rafiq on my side would've been just as good. :P

Emerge Unscathed was something that sounded like it could be good; in practice, it hasn't been. However, I've also been drawing a steady diet of Elspeths to jump my creatures over opponents' and of course, against Affinity (which, again, I've played more matches against than anything else) it's pretty poor.

Geist has been nuts. Hexproof is fantastic and with exalted, he's often too big to block and kill. With either of the pumpers, he's almost always too big.

KotR is still usually my last choice for beater. He doesn't *do* anything unless he doesn't attack which is not what this deck wants to be doing. But he is better than I expected him to be; I figured a format with no Wasteland and only 1/2 the relevant specialty lands would be a poor format for Knight. I've made use of him, however.

Mr. Safety: pancake flipper refers to Rhox War Monk. The gold coins surrounding him look kind of like pancakes.

[KevinTrudeau]

I might have indeed gone a bit overboard on Canopy last night, but I just wanted to stress its importance in the late game and how it is usually a game changer, especially in tandem with Knight. It's why I'm positive Knight should be a four-of; yes, it's certainly a bit worse than another three drop when you're curving out to Rafiq or Ellie on turn three, but in the times that you're not, it's an invaluable asset that no other commodity can quite match. I think the two Horizon Canopy in your original list should be the minimum with three being the current testing number, because you're right, the life loss might be too much.

What I was saying concerning Ghost Quarter was that Tectonic Edge seems to be a superior Knight target for that role in that it can actually cut someone off of a color.

I've also liked QP. That T1 accelerant, T2 QP+leave-up-Path-and/or-Pierce-for-the-rest-of-the-curve line has actually come up somewhat frequently. I don't know if QP's actually that good in place of anything else, but it has been pretty good.

Sejiri Steppe has been absolutely terrific, and is another reason to run Knight as a four-of.

I finally activated Moorland Haunt, and it didn't affect the outcome of the game whatsoever. I'm hesitant to run a land that doesn't tap for colored mana, but I'm also hesitant to cut it because it does seem like it could win some games on its own.

I've been happy every time I've drawn Hinterland Harbor. I wouldn't cut it, but I would also keep it as a singleton.

Currently trying out (from my list):
-1 Moorland Haunt
-1 Horizon Canopy
-2 See Beyond

+1 Tectonic Edge
+1 Temple Garden
+2 Bant Charm

[Mr. Safety]

Is there potential for a Jenara, Asura of War in here? She seems just so good, being a 3/3 flyer for 3 mana and being a great use of spare mana in the mid-late game.

[SpikeyMikey]

When I built the deck for old Extended, I used Jenara. That's when I had GSZ. It was decent when I needed evasion, but most of the time you have better things to do with your mana than dump it into Jenara. It's fantastic in a topdeck war, but otherwise it wasn't that huge. The real question would be, what could it replace? Geist of Saint Traft is the only other vanilla beater and I think Geist is, overall, a better card.

Tec Edge may be better. It's probably better. I keep thinking that I want the ability to use it before turn 4, but honestly, even affinity runs basic lands, so GQ is never really good as a denial tool and people don't use Academy Ruins heavily. The other usual targets like Glacial Chasm or Maze of Ith don't even exist in this environment. I think I'll make the switch, I can't see any reason to stay with GQ now that 12Post is gone.


I'm hesitant to run a land that doesn't tap for colored mana, but I'm also hesitant to cut it because it does seem like it could win some games on its own.

This kind of sums up my feelings. The colorless part doesn't bother me that much but it's just the idea that it *could* be good. Of course, so could Stirring Wildwood or Celestial Colonnade.

I might try and find room again for Steppe if it's been working out so well in testing for you. I have memories of it being lousy in Legacy Rock because if KotR stayed on board long enough to get active, they weren't killing anything anyway. But the threat density is higher here and KotR draws less removal than Rafiq or Rhox War Monk.

[Syaoran]

I've had insane success testing baneslayer- this was taking the approach of "from standard, to modern" instead of "from modern, to standard" - she eats everything alive. Zoo? Oops, I win. (They've usually used their premium removal by this point). Burn? Same story. Just about everything she's amazing against, and given all our ramp, it works.

I agree with not running goyf. We usually don't have the spells to pump him, relying on our opponent isn't a good idea.

[SpikeyMikey]

So not that random games on MWS are a great indicator of anything, but I'm 11-0 in matches and 22-7 in games right now. If you take out the random jank (a B/R/G LD deck and a mono G pump stompy), I'm 9-0 and 18-6. Of course, only 1 of those was Zoo.

Judging from the records so far, this deck beats other midrange and control decks handily but struggles some with aggro; I'm 4-2 in games against Affinity (2-1, 2-1), 2-1 against Burn and 2-1 against 5c Zoo. I haven't played any combo to speak of. Hopefully one of you guys will have some time one of these nights and we can get together and run an actual gauntlet. I have no idea when I'll have time, but it won't be this weekend.

[KevinTrudeau]

I'd be down, I'm free on a lot of days. You'd have to tell me what the top decks are as I've no clue. The only other tuned Modern deck I have and am very familiar with is Living End, but I don't even know if that's top tier or not. I'm guessing Zoo, Jund, Melira, Splinter Twin, normal Bant, and Affinity? Also, did you make any changes/finalize any thoughts during your winning streak?

[SpikeyMikey]

I'd be down, I'm free on a lot of days. You'd have to tell me what the top decks are as I've no clue. The only other tuned Modern deck I have and am very familiar with is Living End, but I don't even know if that's top tier or not. I'm guessing Zoo, Jund, Melira, Splinter Twin, normal Bant, and Affinity? Also, did you make any changes/finalize any thoughts during your winning streak?

I did finally get some mileage out of Haunt. I've still never KotR'd for it. Spell Pierce is still amazing. Selkie out of board is terrible; control decks are counter light but removal heavy so it never connects. Inferno Titan is a problem for me. That about sums it up I think.

[SpikeyMikey]

So I understand that random games on MWS aren't much when it comes to testing results. However, this has done so phenomenally well that even taking into consideration the potential weakness of online opponents, I have to share these numbers.

I'm currently 57-19-0 in games and 24-2-2 in matches. I considered a match a tie if the opponent left/dropped when the game record was at 1-1 or 0-1. I did not count it as a match if an opponent left/dropped when the game record was 1-0. Taking out the random decks (i.e. not recognizable decks like Affinity, Zoo, etc.), my games record is 40-14-0 and my match record is 18-1-2. That's a 74% game win percentage and an 86% match win percentage. If you ignore the 2 matches where the opponent left when I was even or behind on games (1-1 vs Elves and 0-1 vs. B/G Deathcloud) - that is, the 2 draws I gave myself - you're talking a 95% match win percentage. My 2 match losses came against a Cat Sligh zoo variant (which I'm 80% against at 4-1 in matches) and a Pox deck with Death's Shadow which I threw into the "Jank" category on my spreadsheet.

I played 2 matches against Splinter Twin tonight and won both. I'm starting to feel like this deck has the potential to be a tier 1 or tier 1.5 player.

I've still never connected with a Selkie, but I feel like it does draw immediate removal. It's kind of like Bob in that regard. I'm not sure if I want to try and put something in it's place that will actually impact matchups or if I'm happy using it as a pseudo-Spellskite with a huge upside.

[Mr. Safety]

Current list, please!!! :smile: I would be great to have a deck that can beat both zoo and splinter twin. That would open up so many options for the state of modern (as discussed in the Community thread called, um, 'The State of Modern'...boy, my retard coffee is strong today...)

[SpikeyMikey]

Current listing isn't far off from the one from last page.


4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise

4 Rhox War Monk
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Rafiq of the Many
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

3 See Beyond

4 Spell Pierce
4 Path to Exile

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island


Sideboard


4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Mana Leak
2 Trygon Predator
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Bojuka Bog


Torpor Orb might be better than Leyline. I'm not sure how my Melira Pod matchup is yet. If it needs shoring up, I'll switch, but Leyline is nice against Twin since it's uncounterable and doesn't interrupt me from curving out aggressively.

[Dsch]

// Lands
1 [M12] Sunpetal Grove
2 [10E] Forest (2)
1 [EVE] Flooded Grove
4 [10E] Island (1)
1 [M12] Glacial Fortress
4 [ISD] Hinterland Harbor
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [DIS] Breeding Pool
2 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [CS] Ohran Viper
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [ALA] Bant Charm
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [RAV] Remand
3 [LRW] Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Bant Charm
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [10E] Condemn
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 4 [M12] Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 [TSB] Mystic Snake
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

I am currently testing this more controlish build of the bant archetype. Is performing fine, but it is on its early stage of development. What do you think of it?

[Mr. Safety]

The Vipers are sexy, for sure. I'm curious why you chose Remand as a counterspell? Is it because you don't have Preordain/Ponder available to help you filter your draws, so you're going with cantrip-style effects?

Snapcaster Mage loses a lot of gas in modern...If you are committed to Snapcaster, I would use Spell Pierce over Remand. Just my opinion.

[SpikeyMikey]

I have to be honest, I'm not a big fan of Tarmogoyf in Modern. He doesn't get as big, nor does he get big as fast, as he does in Legacy. I think I'd rather have Qasali Pridemage in his place. Rhox War Monk would be acceptable as well, but I think Pridemage would be better main. Remand does seem odd as you're not killing fast enough for a tempo card to be that effective; I think you'd rather have Mana Leak. Has Timely Reinforcements been working out for you better than Rhox War Monk, do you think? I feel like RWM is Zoo's biggest nightmare. It's too big to bolt, it makes a heck of a wall and it's in colors with heavy exalted, making it a nasty attacker.

[Mr. Safety]

I have to be honest, I'm not a big fan of Tarmogoyf in Modern. He doesn't get as big, nor does he get big as fast, as he does in Legacy. I think I'd rather have Qasali Pridemage in his place. Rhox War Monk would be acceptable as well, but I think Pridemage would be better main. Remand does seem odd as you're not killing fast enough for a tempo card to be that effective; I think you'd rather have Mana Leak. Has Timely Reinforcements been working out for you better than Rhox War Monk, do you think? I feel like RWM is Zoo's biggest nightmare. It's too big to bolt, it makes a heck of a wall and it's in colors with heavy exalted, making it a nasty attacker.

Ditto. I don't like Goyf outside of Zoo or a thresh-style RUG deck that is heavy on spells and light on dudes.

Pancake Flipper is a solid choice. He plays the role that Goyf would play (wall + aggressive beater) only he does that role better with lifelink (allowing a greedier mana-base with more Horizon Canopy/fetches/duals) that hurts aggro decks in general anyways. I think you could make an argument that in a low-creature-count control build of Bant could include 4 RWM's, 4 Nobles, 4 Knight of the Reliquary, and 2-3 Vendilion Cliques as it's only creatures. Qasali Pridemage could come in from the sideboard as an additional threat + hate against decks that Path is bad against. Around 15 threats, with the rest being filled with Paths, Leaks, Pierces, Charms, Cryptics, Spell Snares, and even 2-3 Wrath of God maindeck seems pretty sexy.

With that said, I think the more aggressive version (playing about 20 creatures) is a little better. Rafiq and 8 exalters (Pridemage/nobles) works really well. Rafiq can close games on his own if you can keep the path clear. For that setup, look to SpikeyMikey's list. Aggressive build with the right amount of protection/disruption to get you there.

Long story short (too late!): I'm not a big fan of snapcaster mage in modern. I equivocate him to standard, where you want to play 3 at the most. Replaying Path/Spell Pierce is sexy...but is it neccessary?

[Dsch]

I love the vipers =)
Yeah, in testing, Remand is not as good as I thought. I mean, the point of playing it was to compensate the lack of CA, so a cantrip would be nice, but even when it gives you a Time-Walk, you normally just hit them for 2-3, if that. As said, the deck does not have big creatures to put pressure on the opponent.
Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever printed imo haha. But he does his job much better in Zoo decks, you guys are right. As they block other goyfs, I am keeping them in favor of Qasali. However, War Monk is huge, thanks for the suggestion, I will try it out.
About Timely Reinforcments, it is very good alongside Snapcaster, thats the reason to play it.
I was not willing to play an aggresive version, so I will keep progressing in that. But I do not think this kind of tempo-control deck can work in modern, after trying the deck out.

[Mr. Safety]

I love the vipers =)
Yeah, in testing, Remand is not as good as I thought. I mean, the point of playing it was to compensate the lack of CA, so a cantrip would be nice, but even when it gives you a Time-Walk, you normally just hit them for 2-3, if that. As said, the deck does not have big creatures to put pressure on the opponent.
Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever printed imo haha. But he does his job much better in Zoo decks, you guys are right. As they block other goyfs, I am keeping them in favor of Qasali. However, War Monk is huge, thanks for the suggestion, I will try it out.
About Timely Reinforcments, it is very good alongside Snapcaster, thats the reason to play it.
I was not willing to play an aggresive version, so I will keep progressing in that. But I do not think this kind of tempo-control deck can work in modern, after trying the deck out.

Here's the thing: with Noble Hierarch on the table, you'll quite often be able to outclass Goyf with Rhox War Monk. Rhox War Monk becomes a turn 2 play with Nobles as well, meaning he'll hit in time to wrestle with Goyf. The fact that RWM can profitably block Nacatl's and Kird Ape/Loam Lion's means your Paths can deal with Goyf. KotR should be outclassing Goyf by the mid-game, too...especially if you're playing enough fetchlands/Horizon Canopy's to make him tick.

[SpikeyMikey]

I love the vipers =)

I was not willing to play an aggresive version, so I will keep progressing in that. But I do not think this kind of tempo-control deck can work in modern, after trying the deck out.

I agree, which is why I am playing a more aggressive version, but I didn't want to say that since it's kind of rude to go "cute deck, but mine's better". :)

Because aggressive lines are so strong in this format and control elements are so weak, it becomes almost impossible to play a deck that wants to interact with the opponent. It's better to play something Vintage-like. By that I mean a deck with a strong gameplan that just wins if the opponent doesn't interact with it and just enough disruption to keep your opponent from winning.

That's why Splinter Twin is the format's best deck right now. Unmolested, it will win turn 4 every game. But it runs enough disruption to keep turn 3 or turn 4 opponents from winning. Outside of dedicated hate, Soul Sisters is the only deck that posts a good record against it.

I think you need to be playing Spell Pierce if you're not playing combo. And I believe you have to have a plan for Zoo, which is the most popular deck out there. Beyond that, I feel like the best defense is a good offense. If your opponent is spending time and mana trying to stop you from winning, they're not spending it on winning themselves.

[Mr. Safety]

Totally agree...in modern it seems that an aggressive 'must-answer' game plan is needed with counterspells to protect your threats, not keep your opponent's threats in check. Play better threats, out-muscle their threats, counter removals and board wipers. Game.

[conley1000000]

Really suprised not to see Lotus Cobra in lists with KOTR. Bant charm i.m.o. is the most versitile card Bant has available. I think Garruk Primal Hunter is a card worth exploring, as G card draw is amazing. I like rafiq and geist in the above lists as both are game changing, but why not run less "legendary" and add something versatile like Congregation at Dawn? Just general questions for someone trying to dip there nose into modern...

[SpikeyMikey]

Really suprised not to see Lotus Cobra in lists with KOTR. Bant charm i.m.o. is the most versitile card Bant has available. I think Garruk Primal Hunter is a card worth exploring, as G card draw is amazing. I like rafiq and geist in the above lists as both are game changing, but why not run less "legendary" and add something versatile like Congregation at Dawn? Just general questions for someone trying to dip there nose into modern...

The question is, what are you trying to do with Lotus Cobra and KotR? Sure, you can generate lots of mana. But you're generating lots of mana with a 2-card combo and to what end?

This deck isn't really an aggro deck. It's not a "good stuff" deck where you just play the best cards in the colors. It's a very comboesque deck, seeking to curve out with a turn 1 accelerant, a turn 2 beater and a turn 3 pumper. The idea is to kill your opponent on turn 4, like Twin or Zoo would. The difference is, you're not as consistent on turn 4 but you've got a mediocre aggro backup plan and you can still "go off" at any time when you topdeck a Rafiq. Congregation at Dawn would let you tutor for specific pieces, but you can't do that on the timeline you're looking to; it doesn't fit into your ideal curve.

There are pieces in the deck that are there for when you don't have your ideal curve or when you need to play a little more reactively (Spell Pierce) but for the most part, the deck is built to maximize the ideal line.

[conley1000000]

The question is, what are you trying to do with Lotus Cobra and KotR? Sure, you can generate lots of mana. But you're generating lots of mana with a 2-card combo and to what end?

This deck isn't really an aggro deck. It's not a "good stuff" deck where you just play the best cards in the colors. It's a very comboesque deck, seeking to curve out with a turn 1 accelerant, a turn 2 beater and a turn 3 pumper. The idea is to kill your opponent on turn 4, like Twin or Zoo would. The difference is, you're not as consistent on turn 4 but you've got a mediocre aggro backup plan and you can still "go off" at any time when you topdeck a Rafiq. Congregation at Dawn would let you tutor for specific pieces, but you can't do that on the timeline you're looking to; it doesn't fit into your ideal curve.

There are pieces in the deck that are there for when you don't have your ideal curve or when you need to play a little more reactively (Spell Pierce) but for the most part, the deck is built to maximize the ideal line.

Sorry, guess my post should've been broken up. First part with lotus cobra was just a generalization. Second part was more towards you with congregation, and i see exactly what your saying and makes sense.
So with the Cobra/KOTR thing I guess where I'm going is more towards a Soveriegns type deck that wrecked towards the end of its life in standard, and PTQ before the swords printing and bant went to a SFM build.
I also like Conley Woods "Charmed, I'm sure" GP Oakland deck he ran in Extended. Very good aggro control deck with great tempo cards such as Aven Mindcensor that has amazing synergy with Path to Exile and packed alot of other wonderful cards. I'm not sure if not having Jace 2.0 hinders the deck enough to not make it playable, but Garruk 2.0 can somewhat fill its slot? I'ma a huge fan of the bant colors, my opinion the best color combo in magic, but very unfamiliar with older cards. I really wanna get a bant list together before the PTQ season, but am unsure of what direction to go...

[SpikeyMikey]

The big thing is that you have to be able to beat Zoo and Splinter Twin if you expect to compete in Modern. That means you have to have to be able to present a defense by turn 3/4 and/or race by turn 3/4 (depending on p/d). That's a problem, because nothing in the format can really race by turn 3 consistently (Belcher can go off on turn 1, but it's horribly inconsistent), that means having a turn 4-5 win under ideal conditions as well as the ability to put up some sort of disruption on or around turn 3 or 4 to defend against Twin on turn 4 or the final push of Zoo on turn 4. There are very few cards that intersect and stop both. Ghostly Prison is the best one I can think of and Prison fits best in the, well, Prison archetype - not exactly a strong archetype in Modern. So really, what you want is the ability to race. But you have to race with at least 8-10 disruption spells, because Twin is going to be running more than that and no tier 1 or tier 1.5 deck is going to run less.

The hyper-aggressive All In Bant deck I've proposed can do all that. I still wouldn't consider it the best deck in the format; I feel Twin is still stronger despite the hate aimed at it. But I think this is an acceptable deck to play with if you don't want to play Twin or feel that the Twin hate in your area is going to be really strong. This performs well against everything. It's better against combo and control than it is against aggro (the creatures are not really designed to function well defensively; the deck is based around using exalted to maximum effect)

[Mr. Safety]

I really want to examine Fauna Shaman for Bant...it can give the deck some pretty big balls against anything aggro or combo. Being able to fetch these dudes is huge:

1) Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist (combo hate)
2) Thrun, Troll Ascetic (removal proof)
3) Pestermite, Scryb Ranger, Spellstutter Sprite (manipulating the battlefield, counters removal)
4) Aven Mindcensor, Vendilion Clique (stifles fetches, makes Path better, disruption)
5) Setting up a Vengevine assault FTW

A Bant creature package with Fauna Shaman could look like this:

4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spellstutter Sprite (this could be good, at the least counters Bolt/Path)
1x Scryb Ranger


That's 22 creatures. That leaves the other 14-17 slots for removal, counterspells, and even equipment.

Thoughts?

[conley1000000]

I really want to examine Fauna Shaman for Bant...it can give the deck some pretty big balls against anything aggro or combo. Being able to fetch these dudes is huge:

1) Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist (combo hate)
2) Thrun, Troll Ascetic (removal proof)
3) Pestermite, Scryb Ranger, Spellstutter Sprite (manipulating the battlefield, counters removal)
4) Aven Mindcensor, Vendilion Clique (stifles fetches, makes Path better, disruption)
5) Setting up a Vengevine assault FTW

A Bant creature package with Fauna Shaman could look like this:

4x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Vengevine
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Rafiq of the Many
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Eternal Witness
1x Spellstutter Sprite (this could be good, at the least counters Bolt/Path)
1x Scryb Ranger


That's 22 creatures. That leaves the other 14-17 slots for removal, counterspells, and even equipment.

Thoughts?

you need a solid way to re-occur you VV's. Ranger of eos is pretty good for this in a bant build. Also limit the amount of one ofs, Fauna's main idea is to get and discard multiple VV's so the res of your creature base will need some sort of consistancy...In blue I really really like a one of Kira to protect your VV's from path once you've recurred them...I ran Std Fauna naya to a ptq final and a MMS top8, the combo of her and VV are amazing...I'll brew up a list and we can compare notes

[conley1000000]

The big thing is that you have to be able to beat Zoo and Splinter Twin if you expect to compete in Modern. That means you have to have to be able to present a defense by turn 3/4 and/or race by turn 3/4 (depending on p/d). That's a problem, because nothing in the format can really race by turn 3 consistently (Belcher can go off on turn 1, but it's horribly inconsistent), that means having a turn 4-5 win under ideal conditions as well as the ability to put up some sort of disruption on or around turn 3 or 4 to defend against Twin on turn 4 or the final push of Zoo on turn 4. There are very few cards that intersect and stop both. Ghostly Prison is the best one I can think of and Prison fits best in the, well, Prison archetype - not exactly a strong archetype in Modern. So really, what you want is the ability to race. But you have to race with at least 8-10 disruption spells, because Twin is going to be running more than that and no tier 1 or tier 1.5 deck is going to run less.

The hyper-aggressive All In Bant deck I've proposed can do all that. I still wouldn't consider it the best deck in the format; I feel Twin is still stronger despite the hate aimed at it. But I think this is an acceptable deck to play with if you don't want to play Twin or feel that the Twin hate in your area is going to be really strong. This performs well against everything. It's better against combo and control than it is against aggro (the creatures are not really designed to function well defensively; the deck is based around using exalted to maximum effect)

I guess i'll have to see twin in action in modern, but in standard I wasnt that impressed...really have a hard time thinking the best deck in the format is based around a combo that includes 2 permanents. Just seems very easy to disrupt. I built a Bant list taking some of the ideas of your deck, and some of the ideas of other decks and smashed them all together....
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rafiq of the Many
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Path to Exile
4 Mana Leak
3 Bant Charm
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Congregation at Dawn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
2 Forest
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Trinket Mage
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
I really wanted to include V.Cliques but am not sure if 3 drop ctr 11 and 12 are really viable. with mana leak, bant charm, path and after side Engineered explosives and Pithing needle it should be able to handle Twin quite well. Zoo seems like an ok matchup with Pancakes and KOTR being bigger than there creatures and again E.E. just wallups them. I dont have a whole lot of games in testing, a few on Cockatrice but all in all i'm happy with how its performed so far...

[Mr. Safety]

you need a solid way to re-occur you VV's. Ranger of eos is pretty good for this in a bant build. Also limit the amount of one ofs, Fauna's main idea is to get and discard multiple VV's so the res of your creature base will need some sort of consistancy...In blue I really really like a one of Kira to protect your VV's from path once you've recurred them...I ran Std Fauna naya to a ptq final and a MMS top8, the combo of her and VV are amazing...I'll brew up a list and we can compare notes

Same plan as always, play 2 dudes and get the Vines back. That's why there's 6 mana dorks and Scryb Ranger. Even if it costs 3 mana because of a Scryb Ranger/Fauna Shaman + another 1-drop is fine. It's by nature a mid-range deck anyways, so I'm not worried about hitting the 3-5 mana zone.

[conley1000000]

Same plan as always, play 2 dudes and get the Vines back. That's why there's 6 mana dorks and Scryb Ranger. Even if it costs 3 mana because of a Scryb Ranger/Fauna Shaman + another 1-drop is fine. It's by nature a mid-range deck anyways, so I'm not worried about hitting the 3-5 mana zone.

Using scryb to bouce land? not sure how you'd recur VVs without a dryad arbor?
4 Noble Hierach
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Vengevine
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reveillark

2 Elspeth, knight errant

4 Mana Leak
3 Bant Charm
2 Path to Exile

23 land incuding a dryad arbor

Thats a quick list i came up with...

[SpikeyMikey]

The thing you have to remember about Twin is that it has twice as many pieces in Modern. Deceiver Exarch is backed up by Pestermite and Splinter Twin is backed up with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. And because the first permanent comes down at the end of your turn, you can only interact with it at instant speed. It's the best deck in the format if constructed properly.

[Mr. Safety]

Using scryb to bouce land? not sure how you'd recur VVs without a dryad arbor?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not here...I'm saying just play 2 creatures. Even 3 mana (2 for one, 1 for the other) isn't too much to come up with to trigger the Vengevines to come back.

Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor doesn't work anyways...because Dryad Arbor is not a creature spell. Vengevine specifically states that it has to be a creature spell.

[conley1000000]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not here...I'm saying just play 2 creatures. Even 3 mana (2 for one, 1 for the other) isn't too much to come up with to trigger the Vengevines to come back.

Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor doesn't work anyways...because Dryad Arbor is not a creature spell. Vengevine specifically states that it has to be a creature spell.

Def. not trolling, just usually dont post because of issues like this. All i'm saying is trying to draw 2 creatures is leaving alot open. When you start Fauna shamaning away your only creature in hand and are pitching vines and in the process you dont draw another creature then your left with a yard full of VV's and no way to trigger them. in the process your opponent is setting up a way to exile your graveyard. I feel i'm very knowledgable with Fauna VV combo as I've played it in every format and had great success with it. Waiting to draw creatures is not the way you wanna do it. Thats the reason BBE and Ranger of Eos are great VV enablers.
And as far as the Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor goes, I was talking about using the scryb rangers ability to bounce a forest (being arbor)and then pitching it to Fauna to get a creature, sorry i didnt clarify what I was putting down.

[conley1000000]

The thing you have to remember about Twin is that it has twice as many pieces in Modern. Deceiver Exarch is backed up by Pestermite and Splinter Twin is backed up with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. And because the first permanent comes down at the end of your turn, you can only interact with it at instant speed. It's the best deck in the format if constructed properly.

Yes thats true i forgot about Kiki. Whats the approved best way in defending against this deck?

[SpikeyMikey]

Yes thats true i forgot about Kiki. Whats the approved best way in defending against this deck?

Race or board a lot of hate. Gaddock Teeg is a good answer as they'll run more Twins than Kiki's usually. Spellskite forces them to use Kiki and Exarch to avoid a redirect. Ghostly Prison is a good answer. I run Leyline of Singularity. Torpor Orb works too. Otherwise, hope they draw poorly. :)

Silent Arbiter would work too but it's too slow to be effective for most decks.

[Mr. Safety]

Def. not trolling, just usually dont post because of issues like this. All i'm saying is trying to draw 2 creatures is leaving alot open. When you start Fauna shamaning away your only creature in hand and are pitching vines and in the process you dont draw another creature then your left with a yard full of VV's and no way to trigger them. in the process your opponent is setting up a way to exile your graveyard. I feel i'm very knowledgable with Fauna VV combo as I've played it in every format and had great success with it. Waiting to draw creatures is not the way you wanna do it. Thats the reason BBE and Ranger of Eos are great VV enablers.
And as far as the Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor goes, I was talking about using the scryb rangers ability to bounce a forest (being arbor)and then pitching it to Fauna to get a creature, sorry i didnt clarify what I was putting down.

Thanks :wink: My opinion is that you need a minimum of 24+ creatures in your deck to make sure you do have the 2 dudes to trigger VV.

[SpikeyMikey]

Changed my sideboard this morning. Now running:


4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Mana Leak
2 Qasali Pridemage


Control was never a threat anyway and it barely exists in this format, so Selkie, despite being amazing enough to main when I ran this deck in Legacy, is just not worth the sideboard slots. I talked to a Source lurker this morning who pointed out that having GY hate in the board was pointless too. So I went to 6 anti-Zoo cards, 3 Finks and 3 EE. I replaced the Predators with Pridemages after a run-in with a Faeries deck packing 4 goddamn Vedalken Shackles. I still don't think it needs to be Grip, but Pridemage at least lets me kill Shackles or Birthing Pod right away. It's also better against Splinter Twin.

Record as of right now is 76-29-0 in games for 72.38% against the field. 31-6-2 in matches for 79.49%. Since I'm still pushing almost 80% MWP after 100 games, I'm feeling pretty good about this deck. I still think Splinter Twin is the best deck in the format, but I think this is just ahead of Zoo for second best. Removing the random decks and looking at just the percentages vs. established decks like Twin, Zoo, RUG Tempo, etc. we've got 72.22% GWP and 82.14% MWP. Ironically, this deck performs slightly worse against random decks than it does against established decks.

[conley1000000]

So Team fireball is running Counter cat(bant with R for burn and Nacatl)...super excited to see a decklist!

[conley1000000]

Thanks :wink: My opinion is that you need a minimum of 24+ creatures in your deck to make sure you do have the 2 dudes to trigger VV.

No problem, just trying to get into a friendly place to bounce ideas off each other

[conley1000000]

Heres Conley Woods decklist, could be Zoo with U or Bant with R, pretty balanced
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Geist of Saint Traft

2 Negate
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Bant Charm

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Forest
SB: 1 Ranger of Eos
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Gideon Jura
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Combust
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Torpor Orb

[264505]

His other team members went with a smaller zoo list with Loam Lions and Steppe Lynx and are playing Tribal Flames in a 5 color mana base so they can snapcaster for 10 damage.

[SpikeyMikey]

His other team members went with a smaller zoo list with Loam Lions and Steppe Lynx and are playing Tribal Flames in a 5 color mana base so they can snapcaster for 10 damage.

The domain Zoo is terrible. Flaming twice is cute but the deck is prohibitively suicidal and too slow. People quit running Ape and Lion in Legacy long ago because they're terrible in the mirror and don't apply as much pressure early as Steppe Lynx.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, my proxied version of zoo doesn't use Loam Lions or Kird Apes...10 fetches, Steppe Lynx, and Goblin Guide are the way to go. Of course, I'm sticking to naya colors and not dipping into blue. I feel it's unneccessary, but hey, that's just me.

I'm curious how folks feel aboutGeist of Saint Traft in modern bant?

[SpikeyMikey]

It's been nuts for me. But the key to making Geist useful is the exalted. Otherwise, it's usually just a player-only Psionic Blast (that is, they'll block and kill Geist and take the angel to the dome). Elspeth is also fantastic with it. Basically, I think it's amazing in my build but I don't think it would get there in other builds. It's too weak to blocking creatures without some pump. Surprisingly, the difference between 4 mana to use SFM and equip a Sword and the 5 mana to actually cast it and equip it seems to be a prohibitive difference in the format. I try and keep an eye on my mana during games to see if I would get mileage out of including an equipment or two (since Swords work so well with double strike) but the deck generally doesn't have a lot of dead turns until the very late game. Otherwise, I would say a Bant deck that can effectively use the equipment somehow would want Geist as well.

[Mr. Safety]

I played against a bad bant deck last night on MWS, but one thing I pulled from it is this:

1) Kira, Great Glass Spinner
2) Ethersworn Canonist

Together they make a lock, apart they both serve good roles. Kira is intense and makes any soft counter like Spell Pierce/Mana Leak/Rune Snag pretty much amazing. She protects your dudes and equips nicely. For modern, I've said it before, it's better to have an agressive plan that you protect with blue than a control plan that uses a finisher.

My two cents...

[SpikeyMikey]

With Zoo's heavy presence these days and the falling off of Splinter Twin, I've moved Spell Pierce to the board. Of course, this makes being able to race combo that much more important. And unfortunately, that's hard to do without any counters at all. But the Pierces just don't cut it vs. Zoo or White Weenie.

New list:

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise

4 Rhox War Monk
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Jenara, Asura of War

3 Rafiq of the Many
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Repeal

3 Telling Time

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt

Sideboard

4 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Leak
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Engineered Explosives

Testing continues and MWP is creeping down towards GWP, which is only to be expected, of course. Currently 109-54 overall in games with a 63-29 record vs. tier decks. GWP is at 66.8% and 68.4% respectively, with MWP down to 69.35% and 75% respectively.

I can definitely tell that Zoo is growing in popularity and the field in general is tightening up a little bit, even on MWS. Wins are harder to come by (Zoo has always been one of the worst matchups for this deck. Positive, but less so than most other strategies) and games are a lot tighter. But this deck still performs better against the field as a whole than anything else I've played with, so I'm still plugging away, fine tuning it. Mirror-tuned Zoo decks have been better for me against Zoo, but they tend to fall down against things that aren't Zoo, especially non-traditional strategies (Living End, any sort of weird, recursive homebrew, that sort of thing) and that makes it tough to want to play them.

Edit: Still making tweaks to the sideboard. Still having problems with Andrew Roistan's LDZ. Best case would be if it doesn't see much play in Lincoln, which is possible since Boom/Bust and Blood Moon aren't that great in the mirror. But they are incredibly powerful against other strategies. My problem is that I have to board into more enchantment removal out of respect for Blood Moon, but Pridemage is otherwise worse than other things I could have in when they don't have the Moon. So I've decided to give up worrying about Blood Moon and focus on the other aspects of the matchup.

Not having a good answer for turn 1 Hierarch out of Zoo is the next biggest problem, but it's a problem because once I get behind in the damage race, it's hard to overcome. 1-drop heavy Zoo decks can be handled with EE or simply a big KotR or a RWM blocking. But big Zoo can match my creatures size for size and win the battle with the burn. I don't have burn to stunt their early development and I don't really have room in board for more Repeals. So I'm going to try out Worship. If that's not doing it for me, I may try Favor of the Mighty since a 3-drop will often be top dog and let me get mileage out of War Monks instead of just trading for a creature and a burn spell.

Current board:

4 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Leak
3 Worship
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins

[apistat_commander]

Any updates on your list? Are you still getting wrecked by LDZ? I am looking at building this list without the Geists but with more counter magic. Did maindeck Mana Leak not work out for you? Is Telling Time less awful than it looks? Do you think this list is superior to something like Conley Woods' Big Zoo where you are essentially splashing red for Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix? Now that Nacatl is banned, is splashing red simply stretching your manabase for no good reason?

[SpikeyMikey]

Telling Time was originally See Beyond. Neither is Brainstorm but Telling Time does what it needs to do, which is provide you with a little smoothing and dig. I suppose you could try out Truth or Tale there, but I'm not a huge fan of letting my opponent pick when I really need something.

Do I think this list is better than Counter Cat? Yes. But this list is far more aggressive than Counter Cat. People look at it and think, "Bant, midrange aggro control" when really they should be thinking "3 color aggro-combo". The deck has explosive damage potential and where the deck shines is its ability to come up with 8-10 damage out of absolutely nowhere with Rafiq and Elspeth. Of course, mileage varies depending on your preferred playstyle. If you try and play it as aggro control, I think you'd be happier with Counter Cat. If you play it like you would All In Red, I think it'll suit you just fine.

[ghostfire86]

:eyebrow:So yes this thread has not been updated in a long time.:eyebrow:

Coming this weekend I'm going to be taking a Bant deck build to a local tournement. Current decklist:

Mainboard:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Bird of Paradise
1 Pride of the Clouds
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Quasali Pridemage
1 Jenara, Asura of War
2 Trygon Predator
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rafiq the Many

4 Path of Exile
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Detention Sphere

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Hollowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Seaside Citadel
1 Treetop Village
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Celestial Collenade
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Moorland Haunt

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Detention Sphere
2 Creeping Corossion
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Of course I took this really far off on the aggro side of the field. I do not own any tarmogoyfs so he is completely out of the question of inclusion. I have been thinking of using Kitchen Finks in the place of Loxodon Smiter due to the life lose from the shock lands and fetch lands, however, my local meta has a series of control decks (ie. cryptic command, remand, mana leak...)

[Guest2511]

So, how is Bant doing in the current meta? What are the good and the bad matchups? Does anybody have an example of standard Bant deck? I'm thinking about starting to play Modern...

[kingsey]

So, how is Bant doing in the current meta? What are the good and the bad matchups? Does anybody have an example of standard Bant deck? I'm thinking about starting to play Modern...

As much as it pains me, if possible to play a decent bant list, I may try modern.:cry: