Undervalued cards for modern

[KingJohnny]

what cards are undervalue you guys feel for modern right now?
i feel that gifts and academy ruins are kinda undervalue right now
mayb even noble hierarch since she is good in zoo

[Mr.C]

My God, why is it so hard for people to spell and punctuate properly?

Translation:


what cards are undervalue you guys feel for modern right now?
i feel that gifts and academy ruins are kinda undervalue right now
mayb even noble hierarch since she is good in zoo

What cards do you guys feel are undervalued right now in Modern?

I feel that Gifts and Academy Ruins are kind of undervalued right now.

Maybe even Noble Hierarch, since she is so good in zoo.

Was that so damn hard?

[perm]

What cards do you guys think are undervalued right now?

I feel that Gifts and Academy Ruins are kind of undervalued right now.

Maybe even Noble Hierarch, since she is so good in zoo.

Was that so damn hard?

dude... relax. You clearly understood what he was saying, your neckbeard will be intact.

Anyway, I think dismember is one of the best removal cards in the format. I think black in general is undervalued and is underplayed/underbuild.

[dahcmai]

One that stuck out in my mind was Voidslime. It really didn't get much notoriety during it's stint in standard, but a decent counter with a stifle built in can't be all that bad. Considering how bad the counters are in Modern (Rune Snag, Mana Leak, and Remand being the best?) ,it sticks out in my book.


I'm also a huge fan of Kavu Predator. The format seems like it's going to be some serious Zoo and combo action so far and I like the idea of having a creature that can outclass a Nacatyl, Goyf, and Knight quickly. Run some Fiery Justices and watch him slam Knight back into the yard when they least expect it. I remember using it in Legacy for a short time and it did well. Being able to just flat race combo starting with a 3rd turn heavy hit is probably a good thing. Grove of the Burnwillows isn't all that horrible despite the 3 toughness issue and pumps him too. I like that.

[KingJohnny]

ya mr.c we ainit in english foo
noble hierarch is going up in price now finally
what the card deserves

Word up playa! Real talk. Keep thuggin', g. Just do it somewhere else, because you're done here. -zilla

[routlaw]

I've been messing with Voidslime in Bant builds designed around Cryptic Command, and Voidslime is actually pretty awesome there. Untapping with three mana on turn 2 and either countering their spell or stifling a fetchland has been very good value, especially when on the play. The mana costs are strange but a cryptic command deck has to run filters anyway, which makes things a lot easier for costs like that.

Kavu Predator is great too for the reasons mentioned.

I'm suprised Engineered Explosives and Tombstalker haven't gone up more.

[GGoober]

Voidslime is pretty insane and might be an undervalued card. What I feel is tremendously powerful in this format is Boom/Bust and Trickbind. Since most decks are built without land-destruction in mind (no Wasteland, Tec Edge and Ghost Quarters don't really count as LD in the early game), a timely Boom/Bust/Trickbind can buy lots of time.

What are your thoughts on Reflecting Pool? For any deck that's tri-colored or more colors, I'd imagine they would need some copies of Pools. This may pick up the way Standard was in need of Reflecting Pool when it was legal.

[lordofthepit]

Comprehensive list of undervalued Modern cards listed in quote below:


(no hits found)

[evanmartyr]

I think Stone Rain/Molten Rain, and LD in general have a lot of potential in a format where half the decks are either control, aggro that leans heavily on shockduals, or combo that primarily relies on lands to fuel broken stuff. A tempo-oriented R/G, Jund, or RWG could easily take advantage of attrition cards like Blightning, Fulminator Mage, Boom//Bust, Cascade-elf-guy, Magus of the Moon, etc.

[perm]

Voidslime is pretty insane and might be an undervalued card. What I feel is tremendously powerful in this format is Boom/Bust and Trickbind. Since most decks are built without land-destruction in mind (no Wasteland, Tec Edge and Ghost Quarters don't really count as LD in the early game), a timely Boom/Bust/Trickbind can buy lots of time.

What are your thoughts on Reflecting Pool? For any deck that's tri-colored or more colors, I'd imagine they would need some copies of Pools. This may pick up the way Standard was in need of Reflecting Pool when it was legal.

I think for LD Squelch is much better... the split second and "silence" clause of trickbind aren't really that important, and +1 card draw is huge for control.

[ivanpei]

Gifts is finally taking off. Abugames raised from 4 to 8 dollars while scg is sold out at 6 usd. Still can grab them Around 5 dollars on eBay. Get em while you still can. Next level gifts looks like the control deck to beat (other than 12 post).

[GGoober]

I was pondering if it's worth pulling the trigger for $19 on foil Gifts, and pulled the trigger buying 4 NM ones from SCG last night. I was just going to get them off Ebay but I wanted a one-time purchase of 4 Korean Reflecting Pools as well in 1 shipment. Got the Korean Pools at $23, see if I'm wrong on my little 'investment' in these cards.

I think at worst, I'll just have a nice set of cards to play with but I'll bet that Gifts and Pools will continue to creep higher since they will be played sooner or later.

[Mr. Safety]

I bought 2 Gifts for a total of around $6 last month, because I'm a casual junky and the potential of using it in Modern if it ever came about...now I'm smiling. :cool:

[ivanpei]

Nice buys Metalworker. I've been sandbagging my Foil Kamigawa Gifts forever, never had the heart to sell them. Now looks like it's paying off. Been testing my various Gifts list, shit is that card broken or what... It's not Jace 2.0 broken but with such a large card pool, it is insane. Lets not talk about the loam piles. I've been going panic button piles like this and they still win me the game:

Against Aggro:
Engineered explosives, Shackles, Threads of Disloyalty, Lightning bolt/dismember. This is a 2-3 for one easy.

Against Control/Combo:
Cryptic Command, Mana Leak, Spell Snare, Vendilion Clique.

Card is busted.

[Mr. Safety]

I do the same, only I left red out. Each combo pile is a little different for me.

12-Post:

Loam/Ghost Quarter/Makeshift Mannequin/Shriekmaw

Second Sunrise:

Spell Snare/Mana Leak/Engineered Explosives/Duress

Dragonstorm:

Mana Leak/Spell Snare/Duress/Squelch or Trickbind (most likely will be squelch)

Against aggro:

Explosives/ Dismember/Shriekmaw/Black Sun's Zenith

Against control:

Mana Leak/Spell Snare/Mulldrifter/Eternal Witness

OR

Mana Leak/Deprive/Duress/Vendilion Clique

Ditto, card is busted.

[GGoober]

Well, Gifts is primarily stronger in this format because Modern is slower, and less counterspells flying around, so a Resolved gifts is huge card advantage, it's the tutor+CA that breaks games. However, you have to stabilize to the point to resolve a Gifts :)

I'll bet you that Gifts could one day be banned (since its power level is a tad high compared to what's available currently in Modern), but the best thing they can do is the UNBAN cards to fix the format, rather than ban more cards and make the format into essentially shitty Extended.

[ivanpei]

I think Kelly Reid on tcgplayer.com got it right:


"Gifts Ungiven - The first time I had this cast against me in Modern, I actually said aloud, “That crap is legal in this format?” I pride myself on being able to split a Fact or Fiction perfectly, so I was up to the challenge. Gerry Thompson was watching the match and explained to me why I was wrong. There goes my pride. Either way, there are loads of synergies in these sets. Recover, Retrace, Unearth, Flashback and Dredge all give you value on a Gifts no matter what happens. Considering the price, Gifts Ungiven seems like a no-brainer. Innistrad might bring yet more graveyard fun."

I highly doubt it'll get the ban hammer though. Like Metalwalker said, you have to untap with it for the engine to start churning. It's not like Jace, where it can come down and bounce something, defending itself, then start brainstorming/fatesealing the game away. You are wasting a full turn casting gifts. The card is busted, provided you survive that critical turn when you tapped out for gifts. Gifts is one of my favourite cards ever and I've been trying to break it in Legacy for a long time, but it never cut it (Intuition is usually miles better). Picking the right pile is very skill intensive and so is splitting the piles correctly. Good players will be able to abuse the hell out of it and bad players can punt games by splitting the piles wrongly. This is the kind of card that makes Magic really interesting.

[Mr. Safety]

You are wasting a full turn casting gifts. The card is busted, provided you survive that critical turn when you tapped out for gifts. Gifts is one of my favourite cards ever and I've been trying to break it in Legacy for a long time, but it never cut it (Intuition is usually miles better). Picking the right pile is very skill intensive and so is splitting the piles correctly. Good players will be able to abuse the hell out of it and bad players can punt games by splitting the piles wrongly. This is the kind of card that makes Magic really interesting.

Hopefully you are wasting a full 'end of your opponent's turn' to play Gifts, leaving lands untapped for Cryptic or other control. I knew what you meant, though :wink:

I tried Gifts in legacy as well...and ditto, Intuition is the cat's ass. This is as close to Intuition as we are going to get in modern though, so I think it's going to be THE blue engine of choice.

I also like the fact that Gifts rewards play skill. Typical piles of 4 from Gifts are designed to punish your opponent regardless of what they pick, which is why the card is so damn good.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, Gifts is primarily stronger in this format because Modern is slower, and less counterspells flying around, so a Resolved gifts is huge card advantage, it's the tutor+CA that breaks games. However, you have to stabilize to the point to resolve a Gifts :)

Against combo this is really easy, especially given other forms of permission (Mana Leak, Deprive, Familiar's Ruse, Spell Snare.) I absolutely LOVE to see a turn 1 suspended Lotus Bloom...it gives me 3 turns to load my hand, and once I blow past the first wave, Gifts/Witness for the refill. Aggro is a little tougher, but that's why I'm opting for Shriekmaw. He hits a large number of problematic threats in the format (Goyf, Knight, Nacatls, War Monks, Rafiq, Grims, Emrakul, etc.) and gets even better in the graveyard with the Mannequin/Witness engine.


I'll bet you that Gifts could one day be banned (since its power level is a tad high compared to what's available currently in Modern), but the best thing they can do is the UNBAN cards to fix the format, rather than ban more cards and make the format into essentially shitty Extended.

I think they will unban cards first. Bitterblossom would make sense, allowing another blue-based deck to start squabbling in the format. Spellstutter Sprite is already good, but if Bitterblossom were available it would get harder to resolve Gifts. If/when Bitterblossom gets unbanned, I'm jumping onto that deck faster than a fat guy on a jelly donut.

If they continue to ban more cards and make it into an aptly described 'shitty extended', man that would suck. Right now I think it's aptly called 'one of the best extended formats ever', but that's just me.

[swoop]

skullclamp

oh wait :(

[Mr. Safety]

skullclamp

oh wait :(

Useless post is useless.

I'm just waiting for Fulminator Mage to take off in price. I think getting him at around $2.50 a piece right now is a steal. Keeping decks off 4 lands (like Gifts Decks) will be really important.

[Amon Amarth]

Ah, Fulminator Mage seems like a safe buy. FM + Molten Rain seems like a decent LD package with the tron/post decks all over the place. And I'd jump all over Gifts.

[ivanpei]

On another note, ghost quarters are like 5 dollars now. Probably due to speculation. That card is NOT wasteland. You cannot afford to run so many colourless lands in modern. You need as many coloured sources as possible to avoid playing shocks untapped too often. Also ghost quarter is no where near the power level of wasteland. They are also tons of ghost quarters out there. I play it as a one off along with 1 tec edge in my Kotr/Gifts decks. The fact that an uncommon one off ghost quarter is the same price as a 3-4 off rare gifts is pretty weird. I'd trade away the quarters now. It's probably at max value now.

[phonics]

Totally forgot that gifts was instant, jesus. Speaking of gifts, I remember at nph prerelease a local dealer was getting rid of all his bulk rares since there weren't going to be large prereleases anymore (where he did most of his selling), and he had several playsets of gifts for 1$ea among other cards. I remember thinking that its an awesome card but it wouldnt ever be legal in anything but vintage so no point in getting them. cool story.

[Mr. Safety]

On another note, ghost quarters are like 5 dollars now. Probably due to speculation. That card is NOT wasteland. You cannot afford to run so many colourless lands in modern. You need as many coloured sources as possible to avoid playing shocks untapped too often. Also ghost quarter is no where near the power level of wasteland. They are also tons of ghost quarters out there. I play it as a one off along with 1 tec edge in my Kotr/Gifts decks. The fact that an uncommon one off ghost quarter is the same price as a 3-4 off rare gifts is pretty weird. I'd trade away the quarters now. It's probably at max value now.

Ditto, I'm playing 2 GQ's and 1 TE in my gifts deck...because I'm worried about the 12-post matchup.

On another note, is anyone looking at Rewind for playability? The fact that I can play Rewind and STILL PLAY GIFTS THE SAME TURN has my attention in a big way. I know Cryptic Command is the shit and all, I'm just trying to get discussion going. I'm also looking at Concentrate and Harmonize. Probably too slow (and gives essentially a time walk to your opponent in the mid-game) but the efficiency seems good as it's 4 mana for 3 cards.

[dethangel666]

Noble hierarch are good in all formats and its still a 12 dollar card
shes gonna be good in modern too

[Kich867]

I'm working on a UG Aggro/control deck for modern, however Tarmogoyf's are far, far out of my price range.

So I'm looking for some kind of alternative, a relatively cheap, powerful beater, and Dungrove Elder seems to be the most obvious pick. In some respects, besides mana cost, I feel he should theoretically get larger than an average Goyf, pretty quickly, more consistently, and be harder to deal with.

In a deck focusing more on green beaters, and having a large supply of forests, is Dungrove Elder better than Tarmogoyf? I feel like Tarmo is more suited as the splash creature, but the Elder is both larger and harder to deal with for only 1 more mana (which, in a deck with GSZ, birds, dryad arbor, etc..not hard to get 3 mana for turn 2).

[Maveric78f]

Modern is a competitive format. The fact that a card is a fair replacement for another expensive one is not an argument for making it an undervaluated card.

[sco0ter]

What is your opinion on Thoughts of Ruin as probably the best mass LD spell?
Nice with Knight of the Reliquary, too.

[Ironstickman]

Jotun Grunt & Molten Rain.

[Mr.Dieth]

Threads of Disloyalty !

In a format supposedly ruled by confi and goyfs. I think this is going to be a very very good sideboard card!

[samurai_socks]

Ohran Viper. Great with Doran. GSZ target. Great turn 2 off bop/noble. Trades with goyf. Doesnt die to punishing fire. Checks all round.

Others: -
Noble heirarch, Vedalken Shackles, GSZ, EE, SSS and Bribery.

-Cheers-

[Finn]

Aether Vial

At $15 it is still probably a good deal. Just because we aren't seeing any decks with this card currently does not mean they are not coming. The cream always rises to the top eventually. Modern does not have Mental Misstep, Daze or Force of Will. This card is going to be amazing.

[DrJones]

I foresee an Aether Vial + Quest of the Ula temple serpent tribal deck.

[sporenfrosch1411]

At $15 it is still probably a good deal. Just because we aren't seeing any decks with this card currently does not mean they are not coming. The cream always rises to the top eventually. Modern does not have Mental Misstep, Daze or Force of Will. This card is going to be amazing.

And this is exactly why Aether Vial isn't that much needed anyway. Vial in Legacy gets your meat around your opponents counters. Aside from Spell Snare, there isn't that much cheap countering going on in Modern.....

[SpikeyMikey]

And this is exactly why Aether Vial isn't that much needed anyway. Vial in Legacy gets your meat around your opponents counters. Aside from Spell Snare, there isn't that much cheap countering going on in Modern.....

And blue sucks, unless it's in combo. There's always that. The best counter in Modern is Spell Pierce, with Remand or Condescend second and Cryptic Command 4th behind those 3.

12Post is still the deck to beat, but after the GP, when things shake out, people will start realizing that 12Post is weak to Persist and Splinter Twin. The only thing that will possibly keep 12Post on top is a heavy Zoo presence, which is more likely to beat either of the aforementioned combo decks than it is to beat 12Post. But if 12Post is the DtB and Zoo fares poorly against Post (and it does, even with MD Molten Rain) then Zoo becomes the deck you don't want to play. That's your Rock/Paper/Scissors. 12Post > Zoo > turn 4 infinite combo > 12Post. Metagame in a nutshell. You can replace Zoo with Doran aggro if you want. It's sufficiently fast enough. But yeah, otherwise, there's nothing else that I would want to take into the Pro Tour. Dragonstorm and Ad Nauseam are too slow and fragile. Hive Mind is too inconsistent. All In Red will do well against Persist and 12Post but mediocre against Zoo and it will lose to Splinter Twin pretty regularly. There's no such thing as control. I've seen people try and play the old 5cc with Vivid lands, it's a joke. Ditto Faeries. BluePost is playable, but definitely not tier 1; it just has the advantage of having Bribery for the mirror if it comes to it. That's basically the only thing it beats and only if it draws Bribery. Otherwise it's worse against Zoo and still loses to combo. Most of the other combo decks I've seen are too clunky to beat the good combo decks. Everything midrange loses to 12Post.

There's just no place in the format (right now at least) for Aether Vial or Dark Confidant (and really not much room for Tarmogoyf; I'm not convinced he's optimal in Modern Zoo builds). Everyone seems to think these cards are going to be good just because they're powerful in Legacy, but that's like saying Mystic Remora should be good in Legacy because it's powerful in Vintage. Modern isn't just Legacy-lite.

That having been said, nothing in 12Post is undervalued except maybe Scapeshift, which most people haven't picked up on and Beast Within, which people are starting to realize is nuts. Splinter Twin is pretty cheap to build, other than some lands and Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki, the rest is commons or uncommons. Not much there. Melira is brand new and won't rise that much. Birthing Pod might climb a little, but it's still in print too. Green Sun's Zenith is looking to be heavily played in the format, that might spike, but it's not exactly under the radar. Spellskite is fairly decent at least as a board card, as it stops a number of decks, Splinter Twin, Ad Nauseam, hurts Zoo, buys time against Dragonstorm (you can have it soak the EtB's but you still have to deal with 4 flying 5/5's).

[ivanpei]

IMO, Control is by no means crap. The Gifts/Cryptic backed decks with Punishing Fire handle both Aggro and Combo (Splinter Twin) well. I do admit these decks are slightly soft to 12 post but if you can slow them enough to get the Loam/Edge/Quarter engine online, you should be allright. Stone Rains and Spell Pierces out of the board help that matchup quite a bit. I think Bribery is a little slow from my testing vs 12post unless you are ramping as well. Blue post/tron will love bribery for the Greenpost MU.

[SpikeyMikey]

IMO, Control is by no means crap. The Gifts/Cryptic backed decks with Punishing Fire handle both Aggro and Combo (Splinter Twin) well. I do admit these decks are slightly soft to 12 post but if you can slow them enough to get the Loam/Edge/Quarter engine online, you should be allright. Stone Rains and Spell Pierces out of the board help that matchup quite a bit. I think Bribery is a little slow from my testing vs 12post unless you are ramping as well. Blue post/tron will love bribery for the Greenpost MU.

I lost to Bribery out of Merfolk the other day with GreenPost, but he was maining 4 Ghost Quarters and 4 Spreading Seas. Generally though, I was thinking of BluePost when I said Bribery as I don't consider blue in general worth playing. Control doesn't have a solid answer to Gigadrowse out of Splinter Twin (or any other blue based combo for that matter). It doesn't take much, just a Gigadrowse for 2 or 3 paired up with the Deceiver Exarch and you can untap and Twin with Pierce backup even if they left 5 open EoT. Or you could just have Spellskite down and blank any removal.

I feel like Grove/Fire is too slow and people are just hanging on to it because it was good in Extended. It's the same reason people were trying to play Stoneforge Bant before the latest banned list. You'd have to know that tapping out for turn 2 Mystic and watching your opponent cascade into Hyper was a bad idea, but people would try and play SFM-->BSkull anyway.

The thing that I really like about Splinter Twin is that it's so redundant. It's not fast, you're talking minimum of turn 4 and against control more like turn 5-7, but it's like storm; if you don't have a clock backing you up, all the counters in the world won't save you from it. Eventually, they'll force their pieces through. They run just as many counters as your average control deck (6-8) and any time you tap out (or they can tap you out with Gigadrowse), they can just win. Of course, right now, I'm tweaking Persist, as I think that Thoughtseize/Sculler and a very slight edge on speed (Persist has turn 3 kills, Twin does not unless you're holding double SSG or Rite of Flame which most people don't run) beats some counters. I do wish I had room in Persist for Spellskite though, the card is nuts.

[Amon Amarth]

Punishing Fire doesn't seem that great against Zoo which seems to be the default most popular aggro deck at the moment. Four mana to kill pretty most of their creatures doesn't seem like that great of a deal.

[SpikeyMikey]

Punishing Fire doesn't seem that great against Zoo which seems to be the default most popular aggro deck at the moment. Four mana to kill pretty most of their creatures doesn't seem like that great of a deal.

5. 2 for Fires, 1 to return it, 2 more to cast again. That's why I feel like it's too slow. In this format, 5 mana is enough that you should be winning the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am surprised that Glare of Subdual isn't being used more, considering that it hoses most strategies being played, including a lot of the top combo decks (Pod, Tooth and Nail, Hell it even taps down unSuspended Lotuses.)

[sporenfrosch1411]

And then... in reality....
It costs 4 mana. That is a bit slow to be saying you could deal with Combo :/

[Mr. Safety]

It merely needs acceleration, and there is some great acceleration in the format:

GSZ >>> Dryad Arbor
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise

Those are the most played ones, and GSZ gets either of the 2 mana dorks as well.

The real question is whether or not Glare of Subdual is better than sideboarded/maindecked Leyline of Sanctity Both would enter the battlefield at the same time hard-casted, and Leyline has turn 0 potential. Leyline has the added benefit of being very good against anything slinging burn spells (Burn, sligh/RDW, zoo) while also saving you from Grapeshot, Ignite Memories, and Pyrite Spellbomb. Dragonstorm is the odd-man-man out, because they can still attack FTW with Hellkites. They won't win on the spot, but having 4-6 dragons coming at you will kill you just the same. Glare would be slightly useful in that situation...but I still think Leyline gets the nod.

[phonics]

I would say that it is only really works in aggro decks against aggro decks, even then most of the time you would rather have some huge monster for 4cc to battle with than the enchantment. most combo decks dont really care about it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And then... in reality....
It costs 4 mana. That is a bit slow to be saying you could deal with Combo :/

Not really? I mean it's almost always castable on turn 3 and most combo in the format goes off on turn 4 or later.

@Safety: Leyline isn't even slightly comparable to Glare. I mean one is free and only effective against certain combo decks and burn, and the other costs four mana and wrecks everything.

@Phonics: I expected it to only hose aggro decks, but the reality is that it affects a ton of combo decks in the format. Tooth and Nail and Pod in particular get hit pretty hard by it.

eta: Things that Glare does:

- Controls the freaking board state (most important)
- Taps down anything you grab with Tooth & Nail, including Emrakul
- Taps down Birthing Pod on your upkeep when you can't use it.
- Taps down Lotus Bloom on your upkeep when it becomes unsuspended, as well as any other artifact mana.
- Taps down a Pestermite or Exarch in response to Splinter Twin.

[ivanpei]

Fires shouldn't be run in every deck that can play it. I play a 2/2 fires grove split in gifts. They are both fine cards on their own and I do admit the combo is slow. The fact is that the combo is effortless, you just naturally draw into it or chuck a component into a gifts pile. It really gives you alot of late game power. If you are banking on gifts fires as the primary engine of the deck, you're doing it wrong. As an additional effortless control tool, it's ideal.

[SpikeyMikey]

Not really? I mean it's almost always castable on turn 3 and most combo in the format goes off on turn 4 or later.

@Safety: Leyline isn't even slightly comparable to Glare. I mean one is free and only effective against certain combo decks and burn, and the other costs four mana and wrecks everything.

@Phonics: I expected it to only hose aggro decks, but the reality is that it affects a ton of combo decks in the format. Tooth and Nail and Pod in particular get hit pretty hard by it.

Yes, but if someone's playing TnN, it's because they don't know enough about the format to realize that GreenPost is simply better and if they don't know about GreenPost, they're living under a rock. As far as Pod decks go, I've only seen 1 in random games and it didn't impress me. Reminds of me ATS with a bunch of bad creatures that only do something if you've got your engine card.

Splinter Twin and Persist are the only two combo decks that I think are at all viable. Dragonstorm is cute, but you need Dragonstorm for it to work; it has no redundancy. Hive Mind is more explosive, but again, it's inconsistent. Ad Nauseam is slow and relies on getting 2 cards that have no redundancy. Ascension is also a little slow and relies on getting Pyromancer Ascension. Once again, no redundancy.

I think because Splinter Twin basically builds itself and doesn't need much testing, people aren't seeing it online and are therefore dismissing it, but it's a tier 1 deck and if it's not a presence in the T8 in Philly this weekend, I'll be shocked. It's too consistent and resilient not to be.

Persist is very much under the radar, but I've had a lot of success with it. It's fast enough to consistently combo out before 12Post can land an Eldrazi, it packs a good amount of disruption, it has multiple redundancies and best of all, no one is packing hate for it. It catches a little splash hate like Leyline of Sanctity which forces you to attack to kill them (but doesn't stop you from gaining infi life) and I haven't figured out the correct board package to reliably stomp Zoo yet, but outside of fast aggro, I can't find anything that it doesn't beat consistently. I like it as much or more than I like GreenPost right now, with all the hate aimed in Post's direction.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tooth and Nail = Twelve Post. All the Twelve Post lists I've seen still depend on big fatties to win.

Actually wow I didn't realize some people were cutting TnN from their TwelvePost lists, that can't possibly be correct. Regardless, they need a board clearer to win through Glare.

[Tammit67]

Tooth and Nail = Twelve Post. All the Twelve Post lists I've seen still depend on big fatties to win.

Actually wow I didn't realize some people were cutting TnN from their TwelvePost lists, that can't possibly be correct. Regardless, they need a board clearer to win through Glare.

They could just take all the turns. They don't need to clear the board to do that

[routlaw]

Yeah 12-post decks will happily search out Emrakuls and kill you that way. Tooth and Nail just takes up more space in the deck which is better used for cards that fight the mirror (or permanent-bsaed combo, with cards like Beast Within).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Glare taps down Emrakul.

[SpikeyMikey]

Tooth and Nail = Twelve Post. All the Twelve Post lists I've seen still depend on big fatties to win.

Actually wow I didn't realize some people were cutting TnN from their TwelvePost lists, that can't possibly be correct. Regardless, they need a board clearer to win through Glare.

I haven't seen a 12post list *with* Tooth. It's far more clunky than either Primeval Titan for Eye of Ugin or Scapeshift or just running enough Eldrazi to hardcast the bastards. Yes, Tooth and Nail can go for the insta win via Kiki-Exarch or any of the other 2 creature instant win combos, but entwined TnN sits at a very uncomfortable spot on the curve becaues of the geometric progression of Cloudpost mana (you need GG, so double forest or Forest and an accelerator and Cloudposts generate 1, 4, 9 and 16 mana respectively as you have more out; GG+9 you can just hardcast Ulamog which is basically as effective as Kiki/Exarch against most decks and handles Glare quite nicely). Primeval Titan, Summoning Trap and Scapeshift are all much more comfortable and dropping an unkillable board wiping fatty is more or less the same as an instant win combo, the difference being you're not screwed if you draw into one of them (which you would be drawing into an instant win combo piece that you can't actually cast) and Tooth takes up slots in the deck that would be better used for disruption since you're always at least a turn slower than combo and need to slow them down somehow.

Glare would be all but useless against GreenPost, as you can't stop them from tutoring for Ulamog or from casting All is Dust or Beast Within. If it tapped lands, I would say it was good, but as is, you're just wasting a critical turn doing nothing. You really don't want them to cast Eldrazi in the first place, answering them afterwards just isn't good enough.

Edit: Glare does tap down Emrakul, but they can just chain Emrakuls with Eye until they find removal for Glare. 20 mana a turn is not a problem for that deck late game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean if you assume you have infinite mana and turns to find answers, and the opponent has nothing but Glare, then sure, it's not so bad.

I'm playing it with other cards like Aven Mindcensor and, you know, threats, so I don't think these are safe assumptions.

[Maveric78f]

I mean if you assume you have infinite mana and turns to find answers, and the opponent has nothing but Glare, then sure, it's not so bad.

I'm playing it with other cards like Aven Mindcensor and, you know, threats, so I don't think these are safe assumptions.

Conclusion: aven is good an glare is crap.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Conclusion: aven is good an glare is crap.

Uhh. No.

Ignoring the fact that Glare straight up demolishes a lot of matchups, it is perfectly possible for TwelvePost to kill you with or without a Mindcensor in play by just dropping big dudes and beating. They may have outs to Glare but it slows them down significantly and allows you to go in for the kill with all your other dudes.

[Mr. Safety]

Not really? I mean it's almost always castable on turn 3 and most combo in the format goes off on turn 4 or later.

@Safety: Leyline isn't even slightly comparable to Glare. I mean one is free and only effective against certain combo decks and burn, and the other costs four mana and wrecks everything.

@Phonics: I expected it to only hose aggro decks, but the reality is that it affects a ton of combo decks in the format. Tooth and Nail and Pod in particular get hit pretty hard by it.

eta: Things that Glare does:

- Controls the freaking board state (most important)
- Taps down anything you grab with Tooth & Nail, including Emrakul
- Taps down Birthing Pod on your upkeep when you can't use it.
- Taps down Lotus Bloom on your upkeep when it becomes unsuspended, as well as any other artifact mana.
- Taps down a Pestermite or Exarch in response to Splinter Twin.


Glare taps down Emrakul.


Shriekmaw kills Emrakul. Tumble Magnet taps Emrakul and artifacts. Tumble Magnet hits a full turn earlier, and BOTH are good on their own. Magnet has limited range...but I see Glare of Subdual as too narrow for anything beyond a G/W/x Maverick type of setup, in the sideboard. Glare needs dudes to work...what do you do if Green Post plays All is Dust? Not only do you lose your dudes, but you could possibly lose Glare as well.

[Tammit67]

Edit: Glare does tap down Emrakul, but they can just chain Emrakuls with Eye until they find removal for Glare. 20 mana a turn is not a problem for that deck late game.

Removal for glare? When your opponent is taking all the turns, when do you untap to be able to pay Glare's cost? They already have the out they need, without having to run removal at all.

I'd love to see glare in action again, but the 12-post matchup should not be the reason for it.

Edit:The sickest thing you can do with glare is pair it up with an untap creature from shadowmore, namely silkbind faerie. Don't know if it is good enough, but insane against creature based strategies

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I mean the reasoning that they can get to 20 mana and just cast Emrakul every turn seems weak as Hell. Like yes, they can do that, but even twelve post can't reliably do that in a reasonable amount of time, and it's not like Glare says "Creatures you control can't attack" or anything.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, I mean the reasoning that they can get to 20 mana and just cast Emrakul every turn seems weak as Hell. Like yes, they can do that, but even twelve post can't reliably do that in a reasonable amount of time, and it's not like Glare says "Creatures you control can't attack" or anything.

4 Cloudposts/Vesuva and a Glimmerpost gives you 21 mana. 3 Cloudposts/Vesuva and a Glimmerpost is only 13. Like I said, the progression of mana in that deck is staggering at the high end. So it's really not that difficult to get to ludicrous amounts of mana. It's even worse in the mirror where you might have access to 30+ mana at any given time.

In any case, I say we settle this the old fashioned way. You build a deck with Glare, I'll play against it with 12Post, Twin, Persist and Zoo. Say 3 matches of each, that's 12 matches, a good afternoon but not a soul-draining amount of games. We'll see how it works out and how valuable Glare is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I am not going to dedicate an afternoon to it but my AIM is on my profile, you can contact me whenever I'm on.

[coraz86]

At the risk of feeding trolls; I seem to recall a deck heavily featuring Glare winning Worlds (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/worlds05/welcome). Granted, the current Modern field is significantly different, but then Glare has different tools available as well. I can see a pretty sexy deck with Glare/GSZ/Doran from here with about five seconds of thought. Not that it has to include black--it could be GW, or Bant, or Naya, or really whatever the fuck it wants. Glare is a good enough card to build a deck around though.

Speaking of which, closer to the crux of the matter, I'd be startled if the pieces for BGW Junk and BG(x) Rock didn't all get pricy. I think the only thing keeping them in check is the number of options one has in building a quality Rock/Junk deck; Bob is the only knee-jerk inclusion I can see for that game plan.

[SpikeyMikey]

I mean I am not going to dedicate an afternoon to it but my AIM is on my profile, you can contact me whenever I'm on.

Word. I'm working my part time job tonight. Tomorrow when I get off from my day job, I will look you up.

[Mr. Safety]

At the risk of feeding trolls; I seem to recall a deck heavily featuring Glare winning Worlds (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/worlds05/welcome). Granted, the current Modern field is significantly different, but then Glare has different tools available as well. I can see a pretty sexy deck with Glare/GSZ/Doran from here with about five seconds of thought. Not that it has to include black--it could be GW, or Bant, or Naya, or really whatever the fuck it wants. Glare is a good enough card to build a deck around though.

Speaking of which, closer to the crux of the matter, I'd be startled if the pieces for BGW Junk and BG(x) Rock didn't all get pricy. I think the only thing keeping them in check is the number of options one has in building a quality Rock/Junk deck; Bob is the only knee-jerk inclusion I can see for that game plan.

I like it in Bant...because of the exalted factor. So what if you're only attacking with Rafiq? I also like it with vigilance dudes like Steward of Valeron and utility exalted dudes like Pridemage and Nobles. If Stoic Angel's effect wasn't global, I'd say auto-include and you have a deck.

BUT...I still say Tumble Magnet is slightly better for what I need it for (dealing with Emrakul) because I'm not playing white.

[iPhael]

I'm feeling Gifts Ungiven as well. You can do so many broken things with BUG that it's kind of hard not to want to play it. Cards like Loam and Witness fit like a glove, and can act as enablers for stuff like Raven's Crime, Worm Harvest, Tombstalker, utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Ghost Quarter, and so much more. Not to mention you are already in Blue so you get access to great tempo while black provides all the removal you could ever need.

The trick is fitting it all into just 75 cards :D


Here's a couple piles I've had success with in testing:

Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter
Life from the Loam, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Ghost Quarter
Noxious Revival, Eternal Witness, Damnation, Maelstrom Pulse
Noxious Revival, Eternal Witness, Tombstalker, Worm Harvest

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm feeling Gifts Ungiven as well. You can do so many broken things with BUG that it's kind of hard not to want to play it. Cards like Loam and Witness fit like a glove, and can act as enablers for stuff like Raven's Crime, Worm Harvest, Tombstalker, utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Ghost Quarter, and so much more. Not to mention you are already in Blue so you get access to great tempo while black provides all the removal you could ever need.

The trick is fitting it all into just 75 cards :D


Here's a couple piles I've had success with in testing:

Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter
Life from the Loam, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Ghost Quarter
Noxious Revival, Eternal Witness, Damnation, Maelstrom Pulse
Noxious Revival, Eternal Witness, Tombstalker, Worm Harvest

0 of any of those in the T8 at the PT :P

[2Rach]

0 of any of those in the T8 at the PT :P
So...strong post to username ratio? :laugh:

[dschalter]

0 of any of those in the T8 at the PT :P

Gifts Ungiven is one of the most overrated (or at least misued) cards of all time. People stick it in clunky and unreliable decks and assume that they will win every game with Gifts.

Though Grove did make the top 8 iirc.

[KindGrind]

Spoils of the Vault and Plunge into Darkness are cards worth picking up for a few bucks a playset. Pretty powerful tools in the right deck...

[Mr. Safety]

Gifts Ungiven is one of the most overrated (or at least misued) cards of all time. People stick it in clunky and unreliable decks and assume that they will win every game with Gifts.

Though Grove did make the top 8 iirc.

One tournament isn't enough...everyone was obviously itching to play combo. Was Gifts even represented in the tournament? I don't know...but you can bet it will show up at the next one because of the combo decks.

I've been playing BUG on MWS for weeks now, and the combo matchup is my bread & butter. Early disruption followed by mid-game card advantage just screws them over too much to recover and try and combo again. The aggro matchup is actually not bad either (I'm thinking zoo and rock here) actually around 50/50. The blue splash is what really puts BUG over the top in those matchups.

RDW is the hard matchup, just because it's so damn fast and resilient to permission. Even if you get 2 Goblin Guides and a Grim Lavamancer with 1 Engineered Explosives, you've already been knocked down to roughly 10-12 life. And guess what they've been scrounging for 3 turns? Lava Spikes, Rift Bolts, and Lightning Bolts.

EDIT: I did a quick search, and only one person was running Gifts, Robert van Medevoort. He used it as a 2-of in Pyromancer Ascension.dec. I wouldn't say the card is overrated in modern...it's barely played. It can only be speculation that the card is misused/overrated, because almost nobody was using it. Again, it's only one tournament. Give the format a little time to mature. It basically just had it's first birthday, and the kid is playing with the box rather than the gift that came in it.

[Maveric78f]

RDW is the hard matchup, just because it's so damn fast and resilient to permission. Even if you get 2 Goblin Guides and a Grim Lavamancer with 1 Engineered Explosives, you've already been knocked down to roughly 10-12 life. And guess what they've been scrounging for 3 turns? Lava Spikes, Rift Bolts, and Lightning Bolts.
No problem, as a good Gift Ungiven player, you forecast this kind of situation and prepared this pile:
Autochthon Wurm/Nourishing Shoal/Eternal Witness/Noxious Revival

[Mr. Safety]

That pile is useless except for the Eternal Witness.

Against RDW get THIS pile:

Kitchen Finks/Eternal Witness/Profane Command/Phantasmal Image

Kitchen Finks is the stone-cold nuts against RDW. Phantasmal Image copies it. I'm going to get 2 of those cards, and any combination is going to hurt RDW. Eternal Witness and Profane Command? Reanimate Kitchen Finks. Witness and Finks? Just play Finks, then Witness for Image and copy it. Finks and Image? Play finks, then copy it with Image. Image and Command? Reanimate Finks, then copy with Image.

Those game plans are much more annoying, and TBH much more useful, than Nourishing Shoal/Auttochton Wurm. Wurm is HORRIBLE, a dead card UNLESS you play Gifts. Gifts won't win you games (I hope you realize that...) it is just a powerful tool to get answers you need. Noxious Revival in a deck with Witness? Seriously? I'd rather have Ponder, Preordain, or even Makeshift Mannequin. Noxious Revival is a card that needs a draw engine to work, like Second Sunrise.

[daugarten]

Back on topic... not sure it it's been mentioned, but:

I'm thinking that Trickbind will see some more play eventually. Also, Thorn of Amethyst versus Storm as it fits into any deck.

I'm still waiting for Spoils of the Vault to be broken.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm testing Tribal Elves Aggro, and I'm playing 4 copies of Thorn in my sideboard. I absolutely LOVE seeing a t-1 suspended Lotus Bloom. I can outrace the deck often enough game 1, and Thorn x3 and Mindbreak Trap x4 come in from the sideboard. It slows my deck down...but at that point, it just doesn't matter. Bring the beats and hate them out.

I'm curious if anyone has put Disrupting Shoal to good use, or any of the other shoals (save Blazing, which is proven to be good in infect.) They seem so good...but I've been frustrated with Disrupting Shoal in my bug list.

[264505]

0 of any of those in the T8 at the PT :P
Robert van Medevoort went 7-3 with 2 Gifts in his Pyro Ascension list fwiw. Top 8 at Philly wasn't necessarily a showing of the best Modern decks due to the 6 rounds of draft they played. There was a Birthing Pod deck that went 8-2 in the modern portion, but the player missed out on the top 8 due to poor drafting. Sam Black, who made the Top 8 went 7-2-1 in the modern portion as did the guy playing my favorite deck of the tourney UG faeries.

All the guys that went 6-4 or better can be found here
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/topmoderndecks

[sclabman]

Phyrexian Arena seems like it should be seeing more play, for sure.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been seeing Phyrexian Arena on MWS, and I may be playing it myself soon.

[DragoFireheart]

Phyrexian Arena seems like it should be seeing more play, for sure.

Phyrexian Arena

U/B control decks should absolutely be running it.

[Finn]

Aether Vial

At $15 it is still probably a good deal. Just because we aren't seeing any decks with this card currently does not mean they are not coming. The cream always rises to the top eventually. Modern does not have Mental Misstep, Daze or Force of Will. This card is going to be amazing.Just want to reiterate this.

You will be kicking yourself if you don't get these while they are still mostly reasonable.

[DragoFireheart]

Just want to reiterate this.

You will be kicking yourself if you don't get these while they are still mostly reasonable.

Merfolk could be semi-viable in Modern?

[Mr. Safety]

The more control setups that crop up in modern, the better Vial will be I think.