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IthilanorStPete
08-20-2011, 04:49 AM
So, looking at Aggro Loam for Modern, there's a number of pros and cons:

Pros:
-Loam's legal, obviously.
-Three major threats - Goyf, Countryside Crusher, and KotR are all available.
-Dark Confidant is available.
-Punishing Fire/Grove is around, useful, and can be easily fit into the deck's strategy.
-This deck can easily take advantage of recurring Tec. Edge/Ghost Quarter, and the meta right now looks *very* vulnerable to this, between the 12post decks and 3-4 color combo/control builds.

Cons:
-No Mox Diamond puts a hamper on early starts. Noble Hierarch/Birds might help replace this, but it's definitely a downgrade.
-No actual cycling lands means it's trickier to turn Loam into real card advantage, though Raven Crime's around.
-No Burning Wish means much less consistency finding Loam.
-No Devastating Dreams eliminates a major I-win card.

I think you'd have to go 4 colors for this; G and R are obv. essential, you really want W for KotR, and B for Bob to help with some desperately needed digging. Looking at recent Legacy decklists, a speculative core would be something like:

3 Crusher
4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 KotR

4 Loam

3 Punishing Fire
3 Maelstrom Pulse

I think Seismic Assault is definitely wanted to make proper use of Loam. Furthermore, a GSZ build might be good, improving the consistency lost without 7 Loams; instead, we could have 4 BoP, 3 GSZ, and probably some utility singletons i.e. Pridemage, Teeg. So I guess that'd look something like this mishmash of ideas...

4 Birds
4 Bob
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
3 KotR
4 Crusher

4 Loam
3 Punishing Fire
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 GSZ
2 Raven's Crime

24 lands
(includes 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Horizon Canopy, 1+ Ghost Quarters/Tec Edge, at least 1 manland, Groves)

How does this all look, from the general concept down to my particular ideas?

deathsorcerer
08-20-2011, 10:07 AM
I think a deck like this has a good chance on the metagame thanks to the recursion that loam provides. That being said, it almost looks like you're trying to cram too much in there. Running 4 colors, with KotR and Bob seems a little suicidal. You're going to need a lot of fetches and shocklands to fix your colors and provide enough KotR food. I would stick to RGb.

264505
08-20-2011, 12:04 PM
This deck needs more Swans of Bryn Argoll.

IthilanorStPete
08-20-2011, 12:38 PM
I think a deck like this has a good chance on the metagame thanks to the recursion that loam provides. That being said, it almost looks like you're trying to cram too much in there. Running 4 colors, with KotR and Bob seems a little suicidal. You're going to need a lot of fetches and shocklands to fix your colors and provide enough KotR food. I would stick to RGb.

Right, you actually have to take damage for your manabase in this format. :eek: I suppose RGb with GSZ would still give you enough threats, then?

As for Swans...it's terrible unless you have Seismic Assault out, and even then, I don't think there's enough lands that you get more damage out of the Seismic-Swans route than just pitching your lands to Assault.

sdematt
08-20-2011, 12:47 PM
The problem with this deck in Modern is: No Cycling Lands, no Mox Diamond. If we can get over those issues, I'll definitely help with deck development.

-Matt

IthilanorStPete
08-20-2011, 12:56 PM
The problem with this deck in Modern is: No Cycling Lands, no Mox Diamond. If we can get over those issues, I'll definitely help with deck development.

-Matt

The only ways I can think of to take advantage of Loam is Raven's Crime and Worm's Harvest, which are kind of shaky. I could see using them in a Gifts shell, but that's a different deck. There's Horizon Canopy...*shrug*

Bruticus
08-20-2011, 01:13 PM
Horizon Canopy + Flagstones of Trokair + Oracle of Mul Daya as a draw/thinning engine?

EDIT: Forget about flagstones, but the other 2 seem like they'd work good with loam and knight.

Aggro_zombies
08-20-2011, 01:42 PM
Horizon Canopy + Flagstones of Trokair + Oracle of Mul Daya as a draw/thinning engine?

EDIT: Forget about flagstones, but the other 2 seem like they'd work good with loam and knight.
Seems really bad. Even if you could get more than one extra land drop with your 2-toughness guy in Zoo.format, eating up all of them to draw with Canopy and needing to Loam in between draws makes it significantly less attractive.

Without Wasteland or the cycling lands, Loam get significantly worse. And if you take Loam out of your deck, you have an awkward Zoo deck whose manabase is either going to be a turn too slow or do approximately infinite damage to you (remember that "duals" in this format cipt unless you shock yourself, which means there is a real cost to Greedy McGreederson mana other than color screw).

264505
08-20-2011, 11:52 PM
The lack of lands problem can be solved with a couple Dakmor Salvage as they are tutorable with KoR and can dredge off swan triggers for repeated use. You can keep an aggro shell and still play with Goyf, KoR, and CC. I would build something like this

28 lands (GWR, with a couple singetons and 4 DS)

4 Swans
4 Goyf
4 Birds
4 KoR
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Witness

4 Loam
4 Assault
1 Gaeas Blessing
4 GSZ

routlaw
08-21-2011, 01:50 AM
Crusher is worse (IMO) in a format where there aren't cycle lands-he's much more fragile against green/red aggro decks. If he bricks on Crushes and/or you don't have Loam going he can actually be outright terrible.

There's actually a laundry list of issues with a port of the Legacy deck besides the cons pointed out in IthilanorStPete's post. Hierarch/Birds have a real problem in this format w/ Punishing Fire around and in heavy use. Same for Dryad Arbor. Your acceleration probably has to come from (using old Extended tech) cards like Search for Tomorrow , Explore, or Edge of Autumn, which are all slower.

Dark Confidant is more fragile in this format and also has a bigger drawback due to the pain from the manabase. In a 3c manabase using him would slow down the deck. Not using him allows you to play Naya instead, but that has issues of just being, for the most part, a bad Zoo deck. You're better off going with a Rubin Zoo like deck if you want midrange Naya w/ board control options.

Lastly, the deck has to work well if it doesn't have a Loam.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer or anything, but I just can't seem to make this deck work with the current card pool. Blue-based Turboland strategies and Death Cloud/Trisonomy 21 Pox-style builds have been more promising.

One printing or new tech could change all of that though. All the deck really wants/needs is a better "fixed" Wasteland or some way to translate discarding lands or cards in hand into an advantage and it's back in business.

IthilanorStPete
08-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Crusher is worse (IMO) in a format where there aren't cycle lands-he's much more fragile against green/red aggro decks. If he bricks on Crushes and/or you don't have Loam going he can actually be outright terrible.

There's actually a laundry list of issues with a port of the Legacy deck besides the cons pointed out in IthilanorStPete's post. Hierarch/Birds have a real problem in this format w/ Punishing Fire around and in heavy use. Same for Dryad Arbor. Your acceleration probably has to come from (using old Extended tech) cards like Search for Tomorrow , Explore, or Edge of Autumn, which are all slower.

Dark Confidant is more fragile in this format and also has a bigger drawback due to the pain from the manabase. In a 3c manabase using him would slow down the deck. Not using him allows you to play Naya instead, but that has issues of just being, for the most part, a bad Zoo deck. You're better off going with a Rubin Zoo like deck if you want midrange Naya w/ board control options.

Lastly, the deck has to work well if it doesn't have a Loam.

I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer or anything, but I just can't seem to make this deck work with the current card pool.

I definitely see your point, and I kind of have to agree. The prognosis is not good.

Also, could you elaborate on what exactly these are?

Blue-based Turboland strategies and Death Cloud/Trisonomy 21 Pox-style builds have been more promising.

One printing or new tech could change all of that though. All the deck really wants/needs is a better "fixed" Wasteland or some way to translate discarding lands or cards in hand into an advantage and it's back in business.

routlaw
08-21-2011, 02:29 AM
Blue/Green/X turboland-somewhat popularized by the last season's Standard, my current builds are Spellskite+Oracle of Mul Daya/Azusa, Lost but Seeking+Life from the Loam decks that eventually combo out with Time Warp and Walk the Aeons to play a lot of lands and take a lot of turns. From there you can basically chose how you want to win. The old Extended Elves abuse of looping Primal Commands to put all your noncreature permanants on the top of your deck works pretty good since the card's great anyway.

Death Cloud - there's a thread for it-basically wants to perform a massive board sweep with Death Cloud and usually win via Planeswalkers, which aren't affected buy the spell.

Trisonomy 21 was an older BGW Loam Control deck that used Pox effects, Sinkhole, Raven's Crime, Loam, etc. to both attack the opponent's hand and their mana base. It won via Worm Harvest, or, if the pilot was lucky, the humiliation of Gigapede beatdown. A modern version would work like Smallpox/Rain of Tears, Raven's Crime, Life from the Loam, and a lot of edict removal (Consuming Vapors/Cruel Edict)+Knight of the Reliquary/Abyssal Persector.

perm
08-21-2011, 04:21 AM
Horizon Canopy + Flagstones of Trokair + Oracle of Mul Daya as a draw/thinning engine?

Any talk of "thinning" is pretty preposterous... there are much more efficient ways to do what you're talking about

Nidd
08-21-2011, 08:38 AM
Call the Skybreaker
Cenn's Enlistment
Flame Jab
Oona's Grace
Raven's Crime
Savage Conception
Spitting Image
Syphon Life
Worm Harvest


These are your possible ways of gaining advantage from lands in your hand.
And tbh, going RUG looks infinitely better. Blue gives you counters, bounce, Meloku and possibly Gifts.

I don't think porting Aggro Loam to Modern is possible.

Fatal
08-21-2011, 11:17 AM
Think about blue and Trade Routes as cycling lands..

sdematt
08-21-2011, 01:04 PM
The thing is, in this deck, you have no access to Sylvan Library with the Modern set list, so you HAVE to run Confidant for card advantage. But, then you've got Fires to deal with. It's awkward all around, since everyone is running Fires.

I think you HAVE to play Confidant, Birds, Crusher, Knight, and Goyf to even think of it being viable. Again, I'm not a Modern player, I only play Legacy and Vintage, but I'm thinking:

26 Lands (even with no Moxen, you'll still want lands, but you'll need Tec Edge, Ghost Quarter, Reflecting Pool, Duals, Groves, Fetches, etc.)

1 Eternal Witness ?
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Birds of Paradise
Bloodbraid Elf?

3 Seismic Assault
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fires
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crucible of Worlds
X Smother/Terminate

Talk about a shaky manabase and deck. You have no Cyclers, no Stronghold, bad fetches for this deck (Ideally Foothills and Mire), etc.

That's what I've got so far, but it might not be enough.

-Matt

woremak
08-21-2011, 04:45 PM
Here's a RUG idea that I've been tossing around with some friends. It plays Gifts Ungiven because that card is pretty rad. Clearly not fine-tuned or anything, but a cool looking sketch.

2 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void

2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror

4 Punishing Fire
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Noxious Revival

3 Life from the Loam

2 Seismic Assault
2 Trade Routes

1 Academy Ruins
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Forest
3 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Hallowed Fountain

The Noxious Revival is mostly just so you can end of turn Gifts for any card, Witness and Revival and get the card you want. Nothing too fancy about it.

DukeDemonKn1ght
08-21-2011, 07:28 PM
I think Bant might honestly be the best color scheme for a midrange Loam-advantage deck in Modern.

On the creatures front, Blue gives you Meloku the Clouded Mirror and Rhox War Monk, as well as possibly Vendilion Clique. Trade Routes and Horizon Canopy seem like the best all-around ways in this format to establish card advantage with Loam. Unfortunately I'm not sure Trade Routes can feasibly take up too many slots, since it's terrible in multiples, and ideally our lands would cycle on their own anyways.

I think Knight of the Reliquary is definitely powerful enough to build around. He also works well with Green Sun's Zenith.

So roughly, i'm thinking a creature base like:
4 Knight
3-4 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch
1-2 Kitchen Finks
1-2 Tarmogoyf
1-2 Meloku

With a few more GSZ tutor targets, probably. The function of Loam in this list would be to draw cards with Canopy, Trade Routes, to grow KotR, and to recur fetchlands, Ghost Quarters, etc. This is obviously just a starting point...

Aggro_zombies
08-21-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm not fond of Trade Routes as a draw engine in a format likely to have oodles of Qasali Pridemages. Furthermore, Aggro Loam gets there largely because of redundancy and not power; there's no good redundancy options in RUG since Confidant is black and Library has no analogue in Modern.

Richard Cheese
08-22-2011, 11:00 AM
If PFires really is going to be everywhere, why not run Phyrexian Arena over Bob?

The problem in Modern is that without cycle lands you lose Crusher ammo, instant-speed Loam recursion, and a lot of drawing power. Oona's Grace is about the closest thing I can find, but at 3 it hardly seems like a viable substitute.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm not fond of Trade Routes as a draw engine in a format likely to have oodles of Qasali Pridemages. Furthermore, Aggro Loam gets there largely because of redundancy and not power; there's no good redundancy options in RUG since Confidant is black and Library has no analogue in Modern.

Cream of the Crop is a pseudo-Sylvan Library. It can't draw you extra cards, but it does a nice job of scrying pretty deep if you land a big Knight or Goyf, and even scrys 3 with Clique.

I think what the deck desperately needs is cycle lands. Loam just doesn't do enough for the deck without them. Worm Harvest and Savage Conception are also reusable targets with Loam...but jeesh, cycle land reprinting would be sweet...

Aggro_zombies
08-22-2011, 01:27 PM
Cream of the Crop is a pseudo-Sylvan Library. It can't draw you extra cards, but it does a nice job of scrying pretty deep if you land a big Knight or Goyf, and even scrys 3 with Clique.

I think what the deck desperately needs is cycle lands. Loam just doesn't do enough for the deck without them. Worm Harvest and Savage Conception are also reusable targets with Loam...but jeesh, cycle land reprinting would be sweet...
Cream is like Sylvan Library in that it's a 1G enchantment that does stuff to your library, but unlike Sylvan Library, it's completely terrible. Worm Harvest is far and away better than Conception. There is no reason to run the latter when you can run the former.

And yes, cycling lands would go a long way towards making this an actual deck.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 02:50 PM
Completely terrible is relative...this is modern after all, not legacy. I'm guessing it's not as bad as you think OR as good as I think...that's why I'm testing it, not standing behind it with death on the line, lol.

Nidd
08-22-2011, 03:18 PM
Completely terrible is relative...this is modern after all, not legacy. I'm guessing it's not as bad as you think OR as good as I think...that's why I'm testing it, not standing behind it with death on the line, lol.

Savage Conception = 3 power for 5 mana.
Worm Harvest = >3 power for 5 mana.

Simple math.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 04:06 PM
Concerning Savage Conception and Worm Harvest, of course. I should have been specific...I was referencing Cream of the Crop. His comment on completely terrible was in the context of Cream vs. Sylvan Library.

Wereodile
09-13-2011, 04:03 PM
After viewing all the decks that took part at GP Philly I noticed there were no Aggro based Loam decks. I saw some "Jund" decks which look pretty strong and some 4C Loam decks with KOTR in them but what I am talking about here is RGB based Loam decks more akin to Legacy Aggro Loam. I think it has some of the best removal in the format, solid creatures and multiple Win Cons. Here is a sample list:

//Modern Aggro Loam\\

//Creatures//

4x Dark Confidant
4x Countryside Crusher
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Bloodbraid Elf

//Spells//

4x Life from the Loam
3x Blightning
3x Terminate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Ravenís Crime
1x Worm Harvest

//Enchantments//

3x Seismic Assault

//Lands//

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Arid Mesa
3x Stomping Ground
3x Blood Crypt
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
1x Skargg Rage Pit
1x Raging Ravine
1x Forest
1x Swamp

//Sideboard//

3x Firespout
2x Thoughtseize
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Bojuka Bog
2x Smother
1x Torpor Orb
1x Ensnaring Bridge


Card Choices

I am just going to touch on some of the cards.

-BloodBraid Elf- Can Cascade into just about everything in the deck, not to many "dead" cards can come off of the Cascade (maybe terminate and pulse)

-Blightning/Ravenís Crime - Love these cards, I think with all the combo running around right now discard is very strong. I don't know why no one is playing with Blightning right now.

I am not very good at these kind of threads and have not had a chance to play test my list yet but any input on this deck and why or why it will not work in the format would be greatly appreciated.

4eak
09-13-2011, 05:08 PM
Aggro Loam threads merged.


-4eak

routlaw
09-13-2011, 05:08 PM
As a huge fan of all things Loam I tried to make this happen when the format came out. The current metagame is just really hostile to this kind of strategy though-the Cloudpost decks will go over the top of your threats, combo will just kill you before you get time to set up or ever be a real threat, and the Zoo and Zoo/Bant hybrids just kill you before you can stabilize.

The archetype is best in a format with synergistic (instead of raw power) creature decks and sluggish control decks.

Aggro_zombies
09-13-2011, 05:44 PM
As a huge fan of all things Loam I tried to make this happen when the format came out. The current metagame is just really hostile to this kind of strategy though-the Cloudpost decks will go over the top of your threats, combo will just kill you before you get time to set up or ever be a real threat, and the Zoo and Zoo/Bant hybrids just kill you before you can stabilize.

The archetype is best in a format with synergistic (instead of raw power) creature decks and sluggish control decks.
Aggro Loam's strength in Legacy comes from redundancy and incremental card advantage. Not having cycling lands or powerful nonbasics like Stronghold or Wasteland makes the Modern version of the deck significantly worse. Actually, it makes the card Life from the Loam much worse, since you're stuck doing boring things with it like Ghost Quartering people or reusing fetches.

EDIT: I would rather play straight-up Jund than this deck in Modern, and Jund is not even good.

Greenpoe
02-15-2012, 11:31 PM
As a huge fan of all things Loam I tried to make this happen when the format came out. The current metagame is just really hostile to this kind of strategy though-the Cloudpost decks will go over the top of your threats, combo will just kill you before you get time to set up or ever be a real threat, and the Zoo and Zoo/Bant hybrids just kill you before you can stabilize.

The archetype is best in a format with synergistic (instead of raw power) creature decks and sluggish control decks.

The metagame has shifted! With Cloudpost and Wild Nactl banned, we can put the AGGRO back in Aggro loam! Forget everything you know about Aggro Loam, because Modern Aggro Loam plays completely different than Legacy Aggro Loam. Modern Aggro Loam plays out kind of like Big Zoo. The deck has a strong early, mid and late game, since Modern's "early" game is roughly turns 1-4, since all the bannings have slowed everything down.

// Lands
2 Mountain (7)
2 [M12] Rootbound Crag
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [GP] Stomping Ground
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
2 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [US] Plains (2)
1 [MR] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
2 [PD2] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [8E] Seismic Assault
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Glittering Wish
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [ALA] Realm Razer
SB: 1 [DDH] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 [ALA] Qasali Ambusher
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [ALA] Sarkhan Vol
SB: 1 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [SHM] Guttural Response
SB: 1 [DDH] Lightning Helix

It might look weaksauce by the numbers, but test it out. The deck is an absolute house if you play it right. The deck just attacks the current meta. You can race burn game 1. You've got a billion answers to Splintertwin (although half of them include burning/Assaulting their untappy guy). You've got an incredibly fast clock for an awesome early game [B]and an amazing late game. You destroy most decks that rely on creatures because you're creatures are bigger, you've got Bolts and Assaults to destroy their creatures, plus your lategame rocks- and if they try and swarm doing some incremental card advantage strategy like Death & Taxes or W(x) tokens, you can drop Firespout. This deck is positive against the vast majority of the field. The only decks with that's a bad MU is Tron, but even then, you could swap out the basics for Tectonic Edge and Edge-lock them. The deck can be difficult to play optimally at times, but when played well, it's definitely well positioned in the meta.

Almost every land taps for red because of Seismic Assault. Assault is a 4-of because it's the best card in the deck. Without Loam, it turns every topdecked land into gas to either control the board or to be saved until you can burn them out. With Loam, you can have a one-sided Wrath effect or a fast clock. I like RGW a lot better than RGB because RGW gives the deck a fantastic early game for KoTR, who is just a monster when he comes down. Confidant might help with the late game as his benefits increase over time, but so many games are decided during turns 2-4, and KoTR has a much bigger immediate impact dropped on turn 2 than Confidant does. Plus, all the fetches mean you have a lot self-damage anyway. Whether you have a Loam in hand or not, Seismic is just plain amazing, good enough to warrant a 4-of.

Only 2 Lavamancer because you don't want to be exiling card from your graveyard too early in the game, although Lavamancer could be replaced by Lightning Helix.

Bloodbraid Elf is one of the best cards in the deck, after Assault, because Bloodbraid Elf has haste, which helps the clock, it often cascades into something devastating. Plus, it's awesome vs. counterspells.

Glittering Wish is there because it gives answers or gas, depending on what you need. Generally, though, you'll want to fetch Sarkah Vol (he ultimates really quickly and giving KotR haste is insane) or Huntmaster of the Fells (immediate card advantage and lifegain is good, plus more CA and damage if he transforms). Glittering Wish rocks. The 4th is in the SB to fight decks where you're more reliant on answers.

Anarky87
03-16-2012, 11:12 PM
So Aggro Loam wins the GP: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gplin12/welcome#1

I'll probably be checking this list out some. Seems pretty tight.