[Deck] ANC (Ad Nauseam Conflagrate)

[4eak]

Tendrils isn't legal, but AdN is (so, we should try to break it). The modern cardpool has just enough acceleration, synergy cards and a win con to make it a deck. How effective the deck will be, eh, we'll see.

Here is a list:

// Lands - 22
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Watery Grave
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest

// Additional Mana Sources - 12
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Coalition Relic

// The Combo Sawce - 9
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
1 Conflagrate

// Protection - 5
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Pact of Negation

// Card Quality - 12
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Spellbook
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Phyrexian Unlife

The general gameplan is to resolve Angel's Grace and Ad Nauseam, draw your deck, get Conflagrate into the GY, and Flashback for lethal. SSG is wonderful for enabling flashback (Ad nauseam has always sought to find ways to produce mana post-AdN); PoN does a fine job as well.

Honestly, I am not convinced this is the best combo deck to play. I think it would need some work (and perhaps even new cards to be printed) to make it a strong competitor compared to the various other sorts of combo decks available in Modern. I hope I'm wrong, as I enjoy playing Ad Nauseam.



peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

I would agree. You need to Grace in response to Ad Nauseam, so while Grace is uncounterable, the AdN is not. So against control, in order to go off, you need Ad Nauseam, Angel's Grace and at least 1 Pact of Negation. That's asking a lot.

[Jodahae]

Wouldnt Peer through Depths be a strict improvement to teachings. Finding ad naus or whatever you need since nearly everything is a 4 of.

[Kich867]

If I'm not mistaken, the AdN is actually uncounterable. You play AdN, retain priority and put Grace on the stack. They aren't allowed to cast anything until you're done putting things on the stack with your priority.

I think a bigger concern of the deck is there's no way to discard anything on demand, so getting conflag into the graveyard actually seems somewhat impossible before you die unless you hold cards and discard it manually.

[Julian23]

If I'm not mistaken, the AdN is actually uncounterable. You play AdN, retain priority and put Grace on the stack. They aren't allowed to cast anything until you're done putting things on the stack with your priority.

So Angel's Grace resolves. Then they counter Ad Nauseam.

Why would it be "uncounterable"?

[4eak]

@ Jodahae


Wouldnt Peer through Depths be a strict improvement to teachings. Finding ad naus or whatever you need since nearly everything is a 4 of.

It isn't a strict improvement. It might be an improvement on average. Mystical Teachings lets you pickup your 1-of's as well (which can be powerful), and you can even get two uses out of Mystical teachings. Peer merits testing though.

@ Kich867


If I'm not mistaken, the AdN is actually uncounterable.

You are mistaken; Julian alluded to what happens on the stack. Essentially, after Angel's Grace resolves, it is no longer on the stack, and you still have to pass priority to resolve AdN, which is exactly where they can counter AdN (Angel's isn't on the stack anymore, it resolved).


I think a bigger concern of the deck is there's no way to discard anything on demand, so getting conflag into the graveyard actually seems somewhat impossible before you die unless you hold cards and discard it manually.

Getting Conflag in the GY is easy. You need 3 SSG's (assuming you have no mana left and you've used up your land drop for Grace/AdN) to do it (and you'll have all 4 SSG's by the time you've drawn your deck). SSG->Hardcast Conflag where X=0; SSG, SSG, pitch lethal X->Flashback for lethal.


peace,
4eak

[SpikeyMikey]

4eak got to it before I could. A game of LoL popped and I had to stop posting. :P

Right now, I think this is one of the fringe, "bad" combos. The whole deck is basically devoted to the engine, it has almost no disruption and it can't win before turn 4 at the earliest. That means it's worse than Hive Mind (potential turn 2 in glass cannon builds) and worse than Splinter Twin (also turn 4 minimum, but much better protection/disruption package). Persist splits the difference between Hive Mind and Splinter Twin (some protection with discard, turn 3 minimum, usually turn 4-5) making it a possible choice for people who don't want to play U/R for whatever reason. But Conflagrate, Dragonstorm and Warp World all seem like worse combos than the 3 I mentioned. Also Turbo Land, now that I'm testing it, because it's also on the 'glass cannon turn 4 combo' list. Which is sad, because I really, really liked it when it was handing me my ass 2 matches in a row.

[Kich867]

Ah apologies, I misunderstood how split second worked, I was under the impression that split second essentially ended that stack and everything below it would resolve.

[1maarten1]

What are the thoughts on an other storm approach like SwathStorm? Here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/72 Its legal and seems viable?

[4eak]

Neat deck. It plays neither AdN nor Conflagrate. It is a different deck. I will be trying that deck out (although, I think Dragonstorm might simply be better) - thanks for pointing it out.


peace,
4eak

[sillysam71]

I played almost this exact list when extended got chopped in half, just didn't have rav duals. I really liked the deck and won an extended tournament with it at the time. The biggest issue I had with it at the time was that the mana acceleration needed to hit WBB3 is super clunky and slow. Other than that, I never had issues going off and I usually had protection. Modern is a different format, though...

[Mr. Safety]

I think the real way to make this happen would be for a Hive Mind primary win condition and an Ad-Nauseum secondary. You've got the acceleration to make Hive Mind + Pact happen on turn 4 (like most Lotus Bloom-based combo like Dragonstorm/Second Sunrise) but if they counter Hive Mind (or you don't draw it) you can go with Ad Nauseum/Angel's Grace.

It's an idea anyways...and blue gives you the opportunity to hate on opposing combo.

[fogxanic]

Time to drag this up again. Im going to play this deck next week at local modern tournament. I think worst weaknesses of this deck are counterflux and slaughter games (can be answered with leyline of sanctity), maybe Iona with proper color (slaughter pact sb? they always put white when they see that kind of manasource). Anybody knows something more? Im planning to play 1 more Pact of Negation maybe SB also Laboratory Maniac as win cond. witch needs 1 more mana for kill than other spells.

Ad Nauseam:

Creatures 6

2 Augur of Bolas
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells 32

4 Ad Nauseam
1 Conflagrate
4 Angel's Grace
1 Pact of Negation
4 Telling Time
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Lotus Bloom
3 Pentad Prism
3 Phyrexian Unlife

Lands 22

1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave

Side 15

3 Dimir Charm
1 Echoing Truth
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Lightning Storm
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Timely Reinforcements

[fogxanic]

I played yesterday with my list at local 18 player tournament placing 6 th 3-1 (there were only top 4 and my OMW% sucked). Match ups were: Kiki pod (lose), Kiki pod, BR planeswalkers, Mono R goblins. One win was very nice against pod. He had melira/finks combo on table and I was like one turn from dead. I top decked ad nauseam and had 5 mana on board. Also Phyrexian Unlife and Laboratory Maniac I had. Then I cast ad nauseam and took whole deck. Played Pentad Prism with 2 spirit guides to get 1 sunburst and Serum Visions for win. This was only win condition I had for infinite lives. First Kiki pod was too bad for me he comboed 4 th turn and I was 1 turn from getting lotus bloom for win. Second game he just killed me with 2 kitchen finks and vendilion clique.

Ad Nauseam:

Creatures 3

3 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells 36

4 Ad Nauseam
1 Conflagrate
4 Angel's Grace
1 Pact of Negation
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Pentad Prism
3 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Remand
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Lands 21

1 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave

Side 15

2 Dimir Charm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Lightning Storm
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Pyroclasm

[Mr. Safety]

I've been actively developing this deck as well. Here is my current list:

Draw/Dig - 11
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
2x Peer Through Depths
1x Mystical Teachings

Accleration - 13
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Pentad Prism
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Desperate Ritual

Combo - 10
4x Angel's Grace
4x Ad Nauseam
1x Phyrexian Unlife
1x Conflagrate

Protection - 6
4x Duress
1x Pact of Negation
1x Silence

Lands - 20
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Arid Mesa
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
2x Island
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
1x Plains

Sideboard
2x Echoing Truth
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pact of Negation
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pyroclasm


I want to get a third and probably a fourth Leyline of Sanctity, they are really good against targeted discard. I would likely cut the Oblivion Ring for it.

So far it has been playing really consistently, if a little on the slow side. Combo happens by turn four often enough to be a serious deck and the consistency is really solid. I wish we had better cantrips in this format, and I'm seriously debating the cut of the singleton Phyrexian Unlife. Peer Through Depths may cost two mana but it also digs five deep for either of the combo pieces (AG/AN.) It might be worth it for the sake of having better dig power. Mystical Teachings is a great card to set up Silence/Pact protection for the combo turn against control decks (which takes longer anyways.) Overall, a fantastic deck so far. I am hoping to get some feedback here on how to completely optimize the deck. I've gone over older decklists and this is the version that has worked the best for me so far.

I like Patrician's Scorn as a sideboard option, but I wonder if it's any better than Echoing Truth. Free is good, which is what has my attention. It doesn't require any fancy timing, just play Angel's Grace first.

Also, how are folks pulling off the Laboratory Maniac win? Are you siding it in for g2 when they side out their removal, then playing him followed up by the combo? I like that it works around Leyline of Sanctity but I worry about sideboard space. I would want to play at least 3, probably 4, Maniacs for the consistency factor. In my peanut-sized brain it seems better to just answer Leyline of Sanctity with Echoing Truth or Patrician's Scorn.

[Opaco]

@Mr.Safety

To get some discussion going, comparing your list to older ones, don't you miss Lightning Storm? I found that been able to insta-kill in response to an EOT Vendillion Clique/Restoration Angel was quite good. Being inmune to RiP is also a plus.

With only a Phyrexian Unlife to compliment the Angel's Grace and only a Mystical Teachings as a tutor is the dig enough to asssembe the combo on time?

Is duress better than more pacts/silences for protection? Is that kind of aditional protection really needed in game one instead of more raw dig/combo pieces?

[Mr. Safety]

All good questions and good points. So far in testing, the dig has *not* been enough. I just don't know what to include. I think the best option would be to go all-in on Peer Through Depths and drop the Phyrexian Unlife most likely. It can be a way to supplement Angel's Grace, but it also turns on opponent's Abrupt Decays. I would rather be immune to popular removal.

I always wondered why folks used Lightning Storm, now I know why: graveyard hate. I think I will have to work it in as a sideboard option.

Duress has been fantastic, worth every slot. I wanted to use Thoughtseize but I found that the lifeloss was indeed relevant and the cards I wanted to rob always fit the bill for Duress as well. Silence is good against control decks, as well as Pact of Negation. I have found control decks to be few and far between though, so I'd rather just play a slower Mystical Teachings toolbox in the event I play against a control deck. Then I can board in the extra Pact. Duress is naturally good against control decks and really helps in the combo mirror, especially combo decks that are faster.

Those are my thoughts right now, I would welcome any suggestions for improving the dig/tutor package. Any and all help is welcome.

[Fortunae]

I would like to break down my rationale behind the version of the deck I am currently testing. This is the third distinct iteration of ANC that I've been trying to make work, and has been the most successful in goldfishing thus far.

This is the "core" but with one extra win con that I can use on their turn in a pinch:

Ad Nauseum x4
Angel's Grace x4
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Conflagrate x1
Lightning Storm x1

14 cards isn't that bad, that gives plenty of room to work with. Having tried out a version that had red rituals and Manamorphose, I can somewhat confidently say that I want a less all-in build that offers some interaction and doesn't just sit there digging for cards. Regardless, I believe it's safe to say that the crucial support cards are going to be the 8 best cantrips in Modern:

Sleight of Hand x4
Serum Visions x4

These aren't going to be enough by a long shot. For mana considerations, I think that Peer Through Depths, as an instant that only costs 2 and digs 5 deep, will be mostly what we are in the market for, but Mystical Teachings seems really strong as well. For now It'll be a 2/2 split until I have more data.

Peer Through Depths x2
Mystical Teachings x2

So that is 26 cards so far. Defense is the next item on the agenda. Virtually everything that your opponent might play that we care about will have a CMC of 3 or less, making Inquisition the hand disruption du jour. Some type of countermagic seems necessary, but with an eye towards mana efficiency. I like Pact of Negation because it is a free trump after you have drawn your deck but before you cast Conflagrate/LS, and if you happen to have an Angel's Grace to spare, it's converted into a Force of Will early in the game. Creature control will also be necessary for random bullet creatures that Pod sometimes run. This is what I would start with:

Inquisition of Kozilek x4
Pact of Negation x3
Slaughter Pact x1


Some kind of acceleration seems necessary given that the goal is to assemble BBW3 in order to combo off. I've been most impressed with Lotus Bloom because, while it is rather unwieldy, it's safely out of harm's way until turn 4+ which is when you'll be wanting to go off anyway. The rituals reduce the number of Spirit Guides you need to have left in your deck by 1, as well as sometimes offering needed acceleration:


Lotus Bloom x4
Desperate Ritual x2

And the manabase (which, I admit, is a bit of a trainwreck)

Gemstone Mine x4
Scalding Tarn x4
Misty Rainforest x2
Steam Vents x3
Hallowed Fountain x3
Watery Grave x2
City of Brass x2

The board is in flux, but here's what I'm working with:

Patrician's Scorn x1
Ancient Grudge x3
Slaughter Pact x1
Pact of Negation x1
Spell Pierce x2
Leyline of Sanctity x4
Wipe Away x1
Manamorphose x2

I'm looking forward to really putting this archetype through its paces over the next few months. Ad Nauseum is the most powerful engine card in the format, I am highly confident that some version of ANC will be worthy of top-tier competition sooner or later.

[egosum]

I always wondered why folks used Lightning Storm, now I know why: graveyard hate. I think I will have to work it in as a sideboard option.



No, this is not the reason, since you can play conflagrate for 1 from hand, and retaining priority play it for the flashback cost making you inmune to grave hate (beside Leyline/rest in peace, and to fight this you can ply a loner Patrician's sconr, you will ahve it in hand after going off). The most important reason is that you can combo and kill at instant speed with Lightning storm, while this is not possible with conflagrate.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Mr. Safety]

Thank you for the response!

[Fortunae]

No, this is not the reason, since you can play conflagrate for 1 from hand, and retaining priority play it for the flashback cost making you inmune to grave hate (beside Leyline/rest in peace, and to fight this you can ply a loner Patrician's sconr, you will ahve it in hand after going off). The most important reason is that you can combo and kill at instant speed with Lightning storm, while this is not possible with conflagrate.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

If you cast a spell and retain priority, the spell remains on the stack. It will not end up in your graveyard until the resolution of the spell, and therefore cannot be flashed back in the way that you propose.

Graveyard hate should not be any more of an issue than countermagic because of Pact of Negation. Extirpate is the only real worry, and most Modern lists seem to prefer Surgical Extraction for surgical gy hate.

[egosum]

If you cast a spell and retain priority, the spell remains on the stack. It will not end up in your graveyard until the resolution of the spell, and therefore cannot be flashed back in the way that you propose.

Graveyard hate should not be any more of an issue than countermagic because of Pact of Negation. Extirpate is the only real worry, and most Modern lists seem to prefer Surgical Extraction for surgical gy hate.

Unless this has changed with M14, you are not right or I have explain myself not good enough.

What I meant is: you play conflagrate and resolve it (when you play an spell, the last thing happening to it is going to the graveyard). Then, when it has been resolved and placed into the graveyard, the priority gets back to you, and retaining THAT priority you can play it again before your opponent has the chance to remove it (in any possible way) from your graveyard.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Fortunae]

Unless this has changed with M14, you are not right or I have explain myself not good enough.

What I meant is: you play conflagrate and resolve it (when you play an spell, the last thing happening to it is going to the graveyard). Then, when it has been resolved and placed into the graveyard, the priority gets back to you, and retaining THAT priority you can play it again before your opponent has the chance to remove it (in any possible way) from your graveyard.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I understand what you're saying now, you're absolutely right. I love the intricacies of the game mechanics =D

[Fortunae]

It's also worth mentioning that you have to sequence it right... you need to exile the SSG's all before you cast Conflagrate the first time or they can respond with shenanigans.

[Opaco]

It's also worth mentioning that you have to sequence it right... you need to exile the SSG's all before you cast Conflagrate the first time or they can respond with shenanigans.

Why is that? As far as I know, despite the unusual activation cost SSG ability is still a mana ability (activated, gives mana, no targeting, no loyalty) so when it is used it doesn't use the stack, or also can be used after putting Conflagrate on the stack, so I fail to see the window for the opponent to respond.

For the Conflagrate vs L.Storm, a couple of things:

If Martyr decks are popular in your area, is easier to get out of reach of L.Storm (~30 damage without counting opponent lands in hand vs 40+).
Due to Pod , Cages are getting popular, they also stop Conflagrate wich adds (1)U for bouncers to the combo (edit: or bouncing the previous turn).
L.Storm has an activated ability, can be stopped with Pithing Needle or Supression Field effects, again needing a bouncer.
L. Storm gets stopped by Spellkite, again bounce needed, but Conflagrate can ignore them.

Edit: as discarding land snot only incresaes the damage but let redirect L.Storm, it is technically possible to win with it over Spellskites, but the opponent must be so low in life that we have enough lands so after doing lethal and there are still more to repond to each possible Spellkite activation + lands in opponent hand. Considering all the damage the opponent will have will be self inflicted, quite the improbable task.

[fogxanic]

Also remember that if Lightning Storm get discarded you have no win con at all! Conflagrate gets better if discarded because it requires 2 red mana instead of 3 but vulnerable for gy hate.

I can tell about Laboratory Maniac as win condition. It needs littlebit more mana in combo turn than burn spells. Onboard lotus or prism is good to have.You can get 1 more mana when you have deck in hand just exile 2 spirit guides and play pentad prism. Also good to have 1 blue mana for draw a card spell. I have won with this against melira pods infinite life combo on table that was very nice :tongue: Its also good against burrenton forge tender which is very sick against other win cons.ö

[egosum]

Also remember that if Lightning Storm get discarded you have no win con at all! Conflagrate gets better if discarded because it requires 2 red mana instead of 3 but vulnerable for gy hate.

I can tell about Laboratory Maniac as win condition. It needs littlebit more mana in combo turn than burn spells. Onboard lotus or prism is good to have.You can get 1 more mana when you have deck in hand just exile 2 spirit guides and play pentad prism. Also good to have 1 blue mana for draw a card spell. I have won with this against melira pods infinite life combo on table that was very nice :tongue: Its also good against burrenton forge tender which is very sick against other win cons.ö

Each win con has up and downsides. I choose L. Storm, every sinlge situation said seems corner case to me compared to the abiltiy of going of at instant speed.

If you have it discarded is very likely that it get shamaned or Oozed away, so it really makes very little difference.

I'm playing a single lab maniac as a side win con just to face Melira Project and the like, but as a main win con is quite inferior most of cases.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Fortunae]

Why is that? As far as I know, despite the unusual activation cost SSG ability is still a mana ability (activated, gives mana, no targeting, no loyalty) so when it is used it doesn't use the stack, or also can be used after putting Conflagrate on the stack, so I fail to see the window for the opponent to respond.

You're right, I forgot that Spirit Guide abilities produce mana and mana abilities and don't use the stack. Derp.

Would it be out of the question to run one each of Conflagrate and Lightning Storm? Space is tight, but it hedges against discard, and gives you a more flexible game-plan.

Asides from Maniac, are there any other alternate win conditions that are viable with what the deck is trying to do? I'm unfamiliar with about half of Modern's card pool, so it's taking me a bit to become familiar with some of the older sets and the options they give.

[Opaco]

Asides from Maniac, are there any other alternate win conditions that are viable with what the deck is trying to do? I'm unfamiliar with about half of Modern's card pool, so it's taking me a bit to become familiar with some of the older sets and the options they give.

The only other wincon that I'm aware of was Seismic Assault in early iterations of the deck, but apart from the surprise factor o incredible rare corner cases I think that all other options are better at the job. Despite drawing all the deck it's not easy to find a kill that can be paid just with SSGs mana and is as compact as current wincons (just one card).

If Laboratory Maniac becames the kill of choice maybe a couple of Manamorphose could be included to transform the RRRR from SSGs into RRU for Maniac plus U for the cantrip without needing the extra mana as Pentad Prism, but the deck is already really tight and although they replace themselves if drawn precombo, producing R and the unknown card factor in the starting hand could led to awkward situations.

[fogxanic]

I played yesterday at 26 player tournament with this deck for 3-1 record. G1 vs. Uw "disruption" 0-2, g2 vs. Merfolk 2-0, g3 vs. Jund 2-0, g4 vs. Uwr midrange 2-1. I added 2 duresses maindeck now.

[Fortunae]

I played yesterday at 26 player tournament with this deck for 3-1 record. G1 vs. Uw "disruption" 0-2, g2 vs. Merfolk 2-0, g3 vs. Jund 2-0, g4 vs. Uwr midrange 2-1. I added 2 duresses maindeck now.

That's great! Would you mind posting your list?

[fogxanic]

That's great! Would you mind posting your list?

Sure, it's below. So now there are 2 duresses maindeck after changes I think I took 2 remands away. There is a modern tournament coming at saturday I would like very much play again with this :cool:(other option would be merfolks). I think sb needs 1 pact of negation. I think all 3 win cons are required to confuse opponents. Won 1 game with maniac and 1 game with conflagrate on wednesday.


Creatures 3

3 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells 36

4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Lightning Storm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Pentad Prism
3 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Remand
1 Thirst for Knowledge

Lands 21

1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave

Side 15

1 Conflagrate
1 Dimir Charm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Vendilion Clique

[Yellowsmiley]

How often did you find yourself using Phyrexian Unlife as opposed to Angel's Grace? When I was running both in this deck I found 90% of the time I was using Angel's Grace as opposed to PU. Do you think removing the PU all together or leaving just 1 opening more mana acceleration or dig or protection would be worth it? When I did this on MTGO I found my wins were more consistent around t4/t5.

[fogxanic]

How often did you find yourself using Phyrexian Unlife as opposed to Angel's Grace? When I was running both in this deck I found 90% of the time I was using Angel's Grace as opposed to PU. Do you think removing the PU all together or leaving just 1 opening more mana acceleration or dig or protection would be worth it? When I did this on MTGO I found my wins were more consistent around t4/t5.

I used pu very much. Usually opponent countered it so he had less counters for nauseam. If it hit on board it gives often atleast 2 extra turn for digging cards. Game 2 I sided out most of the pus if I used it first game so opponents enchantment hate is useless. Drawback is that sometimes I got too much ags and/or pus for opening hand. Pu is better if nauseam gets countered you dont lose 2 cards. Not yet sure if 3 pus are needed I do some game testing today.

[Yellowsmiley]

This is more of a question about mtgo I guess, but has anyone played this on mtgo? I lost my first game because I didn't know you have to hold ctrl to retain priority after casting Lightning Storm :tongue:. However what about if you cast Conflagrate after desperate ritual? When I did it it ate all the red mana, making x = 1, and I couldn't figure out how to stop this and make it only eat 1 red mana making x=0.

I've only started playing on mtgo about a week ago, excuse my newbish questions. :tongue:

[Mr. Safety]

Sure, it's below. So now there are 2 duresses maindeck after changes I think I took 2 remands away. There is a modern tournament coming at saturday I would like very much play again with this :cool:(other option would be merfolks). I think sb needs 1 pact of negation. I think all 3 win cons are required to confuse opponents. Won 1 game with maniac and 1 game with conflagrate on wednesday.


Creatures 3

3 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells 36

4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Lightning Storm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Pentad Prism
3 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Remand
1 Thirst for Knowledge

Lands 21

1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave

Side 15

1 Conflagrate
1 Dimir Charm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Vendilion Clique



Three Lotus Blooms seems wrong. It is terrible as a draw past turn 2, unless you get nuts lucky in the matchup, and you want to maximize chances of it being in your opening hand. My ability to pull out games against soft counters (Spell Pierce, Mana Leak) go up dramatically with a t1-2 Bloom. Having the extra mana has provided me with an Ad Nauseam for straight up end-of-turn draw 5-8 cards, which has won me several games. It's dangerous, but you just need to realize that once you're at 5 life the AN has to stop or risk losing to another one off the top.

[fogxanic]

Mr. Safety Well T1 Sleight helps find lotus bloom. Maybe 1 phyrexian unlife can be changed to lotus but then I would want another thirst for discarding extra fax mana stones which are not needed.

I played yesterday with previous list at 24 player tournament. There were 5 rounds and top 4. G1 vs. Grixis control 2-1, G2 vs. Grixis cruel ultimatum 1-2, G3 vs. valakut 2-1, G4 vs. melira pod 2-1 and G5 vs. rdw 2-0. There were 5 players at same 12 points in swiss but and I went to top 4. Other top 4 guys wanted to split they all had melira pods and were scared I think :laugh: I accepted split.

Game 2 won against melira pod was really nice. He podded few turns and went to 14 life and managed to get ethersworn canonist onboard. I had very little life but phyrexian unlife. So on my turn I got fifth land and have lotus bloom on battlefield. I played AN and found 6 lands + LS. On his upkeep I played LS on him and hoped he don't have any lands at hand from 3 cards. He didn't and I made 15 dmg to him.

Also I figured that angel's grace is superior against valakut. I was at 17 life and had unlife but he tryed to shoot me with 36 so I cast ag and won next turn because he had all lands tapped and 2 remands in hand.

[Mr. Safety]

Considering your strong focus on Phyrexian Unlife (three copies, while I only play one) I would suggest just working towards more copies of Thirst for Knowledge anyways. Peer through Depths cannot find Unlife, so if you brick on Grace/Nauseam the best you can get is another cantrip or maybe a protection. This isn't bad, it just isn't optimal. I would probalby split your Peer/Thirst 3/2 respectively. A turn 3 Thirst to setup a turn 4 win is still really powerful. I'm considering using Thirst in my list as well, because I'm not that keen on Mystical Teachings. It's too slow.

[fogxanic]

Considering your strong focus on Phyrexian Unlife (three copies, while I only play one) I would suggest just working towards more copies of Thirst for Knowledge anyways. Peer through Depths cannot find Unlife, so if you brick on Grace/Nauseam the best you can get is another cantrip or maybe a protection. This isn't bad, it just isn't optimal. I would probalby split your Peer/Thirst 3/2 respectively. A turn 3 Thirst to setup a turn 4 win is still really powerful. I'm considering using Thirst in my list as well, because I'm not that keen on Mystical Teachings. It's too slow.


I was at 25 player GPT tournament today and had list with this 3/2 peer/thirst ratio. Also I had 2 duresses and 1 inquisition maindeck. I lost first game for Jund, he had 2 discards in first game. Second game I sided out 2 duresses and kept inquisition. I got leyline in opening hand. Turn 2 he pulsed it away and my turn 3 I cast inquisition saw 1 inquisition 1 liliana 1 slaughter games and something. Too bad I coulnt take SG, in 2 turn he cast it to me and it was lose. I was thinking would it be worth playing thoughtseize in deck, against some faster deck 2 life loss would be too much but its more effective than other discards. This was at 4th round after it I was 3-1. ID 5th round and to top 8.

In top 8 I lost first game for melira pod, he had T3 infite lives. Second game he got infinite lives combo easily with endless scy1. Ofcource I had maniac inside deck now and possibility to win. But he attacked very quickly and I was unable to find combo pieces in time and lost. I was thinking would Suppression Field be good on sideboard? If I cut some fetches and add these.

Other matchup I won in this tournament were UWR, GR Tron and GW hatebears. Also I thought adding creeping tar pit in the deck, would be ok for killing liliana and just attacking for victory but it would require additional vendilion clique on sb.

[Mr. Safety]

It seems like you are simply overthinking it, honestly. How many of those matchups would have been solved by Pithing Needle? It's fast and very effective.

This is my sideboard currently (maindeck hasn't changed except for -1 Phyrexian Unlife, +1 Peer through Depths, +1 Thirst for Knowledge, -1 Mystical Teachings):

1x Pact of Negation
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Patrician's Scorn
3x Pyroclasm
2x Pithing Needle
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Laboratory Maniac
2x Silence


I think if you're facing off a fast deck that Inquisition would be good against then Pyroclasm or Firespout is really your answer. It won't nab a Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf, but they will kill Deathrites/Bobs/fast creatures. Another option is Slagstorm, which can be used to deal damage to PW's. Jund is indeed a tough matchup, lots of disruption with a fast clock. Not unbeatable by any means though. I would side out the targeted discard for Leylines, Needles, and probably Pyroclasm/Firespout (whichever you decide on running.) Needle their Liliana/Deathrite, Pyroclasm their small dudes if you can, and hopefully get a turn zero Leyline. From there it's a matter of digging until you get there. Maniac seems good against them too, provided you deal with their Liliana. I wouldn't put Maelstrom Pulse beyond your capabilities either, not with Pentad Prism and a fetch/dual mana base.

Regarding Thoughtseize, I've been debating it myself. Not many decks will use the extra 2 life to kill you, but a few can. I think it's worth playtesting. I might do a 2/2 split between Duress/Thoughtseize. I just don't see that many valid targets for Inquisition. If creatures are a problem, side in a fast wiper. It's really the counterspells/PW's/discard/combo pieces that are causing trouble. ALL OF THEM are answered by Duress or sideboarded Pithing Needle.

Just some thoughts. I have been developing other decks lately, but this one is still built, waiting for the right moment to take advantage of the right metagame.

[fogxanic]

It seems like you are simply overthinking it, honestly. How many of those matchups would have been solved by Pithing Needle? It's fast and very effective.

This is my sideboard currently (maindeck hasn't changed except for -1 Phyrexian Unlife, +1 Peer through Depths, +1 Thirst for Knowledge, -1 Mystical Teachings):

1x Pact of Negation
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Patrician's Scorn
3x Pyroclasm
2x Pithing Needle
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Laboratory Maniac
2x Silence


I think if you're facing off a fast deck that Inquisition would be good against then Pyroclasm or Firespout is really your answer. It won't nab a Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf, but they will kill Deathrites/Bobs/fast creatures. Another option is Slagstorm, which can be used to deal damage to PW's. Jund is indeed a tough matchup, lots of disruption with a fast clock. Not unbeatable by any means though. I would side out the targeted discard for Leylines, Needles, and probably Pyroclasm/Firespout (whichever you decide on running.) Needle their Liliana/Deathrite, Pyroclasm their small dudes if you can, and hopefully get a turn zero Leyline. From there it's a matter of digging until you get there. Maniac seems good against them too, provided you deal with their Liliana. I wouldn't put Maelstrom Pulse beyond your capabilities either, not with Pentad Prism and a fetch/dual mana base.

Regarding Thoughtseize, I've been debating it myself. Not many decks will use the extra 2 life to kill you, but a few can. I think it's worth playtesting. I might do a 2/2 split between Duress/Thoughtseize. I just don't see that many valid targets for Inquisition. If creatures are a problem, side in a fast wiper. It's really the counterspells/PW's/discard/combo pieces that are causing trouble. ALL OF THEM are answered by Duress or sideboarded Pithing Needle.

Just some thoughts. I have been developing other decks lately, but this one is still built, waiting for the right moment to take advantage of the right metagame.

I will try pithing needle it locks enough something +2 needle -2 rakdos charm. Current metagame nobody plays splinter twin or kikipod anymore :frown: Easy win = tap kiki-jiki make infinite tokens and attack, rakdos charm and opponents face goes :cry:

I have 3 pyroclasm in sb they are good for killing mana men, confidant, shaman, guide, delver and ofcource hatebears like canonist, teeq and thalia.

Usually I side maniac in only games where opponent can get out of reach from lightning storm.

I had 2 situations where I wanted inquisition over duress were turn 1 played inquisition saw tarmo, remand, mana leak and something. I had slow hand so I took tarmo away it game me much time to build game for win. Second time I took snapcaster away while opponent had in gy something like mana leak and cryptic command. Maybe I try these seize/duress mix.


EDIT

I played 2 more tournaments first I went 3-1 and today 2-2. Lost for RUG aggro and UWR control. They had very effective counters. I think ill add 4th spirit guide for possible T3 win. Before cryptic command gets enought mana. Also some other changes must do. I have now in sb 2 ignorant bliss agaist discards but ofcource no one plays discards when I have them. Also swerves are under considiration.

[fogxanic]

Hello,

Here is my latest list. Went 4-0 at 25 player tournament yesterday. MUs: Kiki pod 2-0, elves 2-0, uwr midrange 2-1, cruel ultimatum 2-1.

I liked very much 4 th lotus bloom and simian spirit guide.

Creatures 4

4 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells 35

4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
2 Duress
1 Lightning Storm
1 Pact of Negation
3 Peer Through Depths
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Lotus Bloom
3 Pentad Prism
2 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Remand
2 Thirst for Knowledge

Lands 21

1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave

Side 15

1 Conflagrate
1 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ignorant Bliss
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Pact of Negation
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm

[Mr. Safety]

A local GPT is happening in January and I'm seriously debating this deck. I have a few different personal preferences, but the majority of the deck is the same.

My current list:

3x simian spirit guide
4x Pentad prism
4x Lotus Bloom
1x Desperate Ritual

4x Ad Nauseam
4x Angel's Grace
2x Phyrexian Unlife
1x Lightning Storm


4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
2x Peer Through Depths
1x Thirst for Knowledge

1x Slaughter Pact
2x Pact of Negation
3x Duress

2x Scalding Tarn
1x Marsh Flats
3x Arid Mesa
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Steam Vents
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Dreadship Reef
1x City of Brass

SIDEBOARD
1x Patrician's Scorn
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Echoing Truth
2x Torpor Orb
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3x Pyroclasm
1x Conflagrate
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Deathmark

[Acclimation]

Consider Favor of the Mighty as a 1 or 2 of for the sideboard if you think you might run into a lot of Twin, Bogle, or Infect.

I also think that 1 of the Duress should be a Pact of Negation so you can beat 2 counterspells on your combo turn.

Just some food for thought.

[Mr. Safety]

Consider Favor of the Mighty as a 1 or 2 of for the sideboard if you think you might run into a lot of Twin, Bogle, or Infect.

I also think that 1 of the Duress should be a Pact of Negation so you can beat 2 counterspells on your combo turn.

Just some food for thought.

I was thinking of following other lists and dropping to 3x Simian Spirit Guide for a 2nd Pact of Negation. It makes sense, but I'm not sure how much UWR control I will face (or blue-based tempo/control in general.) Honestly, Duress is already really good against most of the combo decks but I could definately get Favor of the Mighty into the sideboard for sure. Playing a full set of Pyroclasm is probably not correct anyways. I can drop to 3 of those, work in the 2nd Pact maindeck, and that frees up 2 slots for Favor of the Mighty. Torpor Orb could be another option, which also has the benefit of stopping Emrakul's Time Walk against Tron (which this deck is faster 9/10 times, but it can sometimes draw poorly.)

EDIT: The above list has been edited to show changes. I like the approach, it seems really good. I feel much better at having 6 protections in the deck. Most legacy storm decks make room for 7 protections, sometimes 8, so getting at least 6 in there makes me feel a little bit better.

[Mr. Safety]

Upon further testing and reflection, I don't think I'll ever board in Boseiju now that a 2nd Pact of Negation is in the maindeck. I also feel that Laboratory Maniac is just too conditional to make use of.

Therefore in the sideboard:

-1 Boseiju
-1 Laboratory Maniac

+2 Pithing Needle

Needle has so many valid targets, and I've typically played at least one in the sideboard in all of the versions I've built/played of this deck. Maniac has been the go-to answer to Martyr.dec, but I think Conflagrate can still pull out a win. I've done Conflagrate for 40+ many times, so I think it's still a better win condition than Maniac.

[Acclimation]

I like how the deck looks. Patiently waiting for results.

[Mr. Safety]

Not gonna lie here...if Jund is better placed, I'm going to just play Jund (later this month for the GPT.) I like the deck, it performs really well, but I'm not sure if it's the right call. I will be playtesting the snot out of it for sure and I'm about 65% sure I'm bringing this list...but like I said, if Jund is better placed I'll be playing that.

[fogxanic]

Upon further testing and reflection, I don't think I'll ever board in Boseiju now that a 2nd Pact of Negation is in the maindeck. I also feel that Laboratory Maniac is just too conditional to make use of.

Therefore in the sideboard:

-1 Boseiju
-1 Laboratory Maniac

+2 Pithing Needle

Needle has so many valid targets, and I've typically played at least one in the sideboard in all of the versions I've built/played of this deck. Maniac has been the go-to answer to Martyr.dec, but I think Conflagrate can still pull out a win. I've done Conflagrate for 40+ many times, so I think it's still a better win condition than Maniac.

I like this new favor of the mighty tech. Infect was autoloss for us before even with heavy pyroclasms. Lab. Man is automatic in against melira pod for beating 1 million lives. I planned to replace something with spell pierces to counter discards and liliana which is autolose also. Can't cut all duresses because of counterflux. What do you think of my plan?

[Mr. Safety]

I dig the new scry land and bauble tech. I'm skeptical of the scry infest in the board though...I will likely move towards firespout and keep the red.

[Mr. Safety]

Is this secretly the best deck in modern right now?

[YamiJoey]

No.

[Mr. Safety]

Ari Lax said it is comparable to storm, a deck many pros have touted to be the best deck. Having played it for a long time, I know its a deck with tier one potential. The scry lands gave it an unbelievable amount of consistency. This deck sees more cards pre-combo in the first 4 turns of the game than any other, save living end (and thats just from cascade.)

[JPoJohnson]

Ari Lax said it is comparable to storm, a deck many pros have touted to be the best deck. Having played it for a long time, I know its a deck with tier one potential. The scry lands gave it an unbelievable amount of consistency. This deck sees more cards in the first 4 turns of the game than any other, save living end (and thats just form cascade.)

I'd say the deck is more like Solidarity than storm. Kill them on the stack above the lethal move.

[Mr. Safety]

His context was in reference to powerful unfair decks, not playstyle or strategy. If you get a chance, check out his modo article playing it on scg.

[On_the_Pitch]

I have been toying with this deck for the past 6 months, tested with 18-22 lands and have yet to determine the "best" amount of lands for this deck . I was wanting to know if anyone else had tested various land quantities or is 20 the perfect amount.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm a highly opinionated and terrible player, but I've been on 20 lands since forever. I also have stuck to only 2 copies of unlife in the main. I feel that most lists don't play enough protection either. Four slots just isn't enough. In the lists using teachings I like silence maindeck, in the non-teachings list I like thoughtseize or duress in the main.

In my experience it isn't the mana that's the issue, its getting the two card combo together by turn 4. Not all of us can have perfect openers like Jared Boettcher.

[Valtrix]

This is maybe a silly question, but did anybody ever test Quicken to turn the deck into the potential for a true kill in response type deck? Seems like it could offer some nice EOT discard action too to constrain your opponent on mana. Not sure how many to run though. Too many would probably be very awkward.

EDIT: Now that I look at some lists it seems everybody uses Lightning Storm instead of conflagarate, for good reason.

[Mr. Safety]

Abrupt decay during your upkeep when lotus bloom comes off suspend would be 'gg' if we couldn't go off at instant speed.

[Valtrix]

Since most of this stuff here is a little old, could I get a little help with some of the following specific questions? I'll probably have more, but this will help me getting started.

1) How fast is this deck for the average hand?

2) How consistent is the deck?

3) What matchups are difficult for this deck?

4) What matchups are good for this deck?

5) How does this deck do against decks with a lot of countermagic?

6) How good is Lotus Bloom? It seems like it can increase the odds of a turn 4 win, but it seems very disruptable and inconsistent if you draw it past turn 2.

[Mr. Safety]

1) Turn 4 is ideal and achievable in a large number of games. Outside of storm and splinter twin this is the only deck that really threatens a consistent turn 4 win.

2)The deck is consistent to the point that mulligans only come when you don't start with a combo piece in hand. As I said in answer #1 only a few other decks threaten a definate turn 4 win. Waiting a turn while using turn 4 to Teachings into your other combo piece is fine. It has placed well in a few big tournaments, most notably Jared Boettcher at PT Born of the Gods. I think he took 9th, and considering he played through two days of grinding matchups thats really something.

3) Thoughtseize decks like Rock, Jund, and B/W tokens are about the worst matchup. UWR control isn't a walk in the park but it's winnable. Blood Moon can sometimes push you off the colors you need but early Pentad Prisms and Lotus Bloom can usually help you grind through. Infect is almost auto-lose but I haven't seen infect in a long time. Leyline of Sanctity is really important for the thoughtseize decks and including 2-3 slots for low level wipers is smart. My particular card of choice is Pyroclasm but Drown in Filth has been used recently because it adds a touch of manipulation. I have found the faster Pyroclasm to be slightly better, especially against infect and early pod dorks.

4) Anything aggro based, such as affinity, zoo, merfolk, and RDW. They aren't as fast, with the exception of the nut draw from affinity.

5) On the combo turn Pact of Negation is really good. I personally play between 6-7 protections for the combo. I currently play 2x Pact of Negation, 1x Slaughter Pact, 1x Silence, and 3x Duress. I feel that its a good take-away from legacy, slowing you down a turn but giving you the tools you need to grind through. Blue-based control isn't easy to win against, but don't be afraid of the matchup. Its definately winnable. Some folks have tinkered with Defense Grid in the sideboard, but it is hard to fit in considering the other pieces of sideboard tech you need.

6) This is about the only deck in modern that can truly take advantage of Lotus Bloom. I wouldn't cut it *ever*. In my experience its absolutely crucial to making sure your turn 4 combo potential is as high as possible. Even if it makes more mana than you need because you have drawn into Pentad Prism it can STILL do work by working around Mana Leak.

I am by no means perfect with the deck, but that is my experience.

[Valtrix]

Thanks for the response. What is "a large number of games" that it goes off on turn 4? But the more important question is, how important was it that you went off in turn 4 of that particular game? For example, say you could have two decks:

Deck 1: Wins on turn 4 25% of the time, turn 5 50% of the time, turn 6 25% of the time.
Deck 2: Wins on turn 4 0% of the time, turn 5 100% of the time.

Which would be better? It's obviously a simplification of the problem, but it should illustrate the potential issue I'm trying to understand.

As for protection, did anybody experiment with Tolaria West? It's a bit slow, but your opponents can't interact with it. You can grab a pact of negation to go off earlier or a Boseiju to fight through multiple counterspells. It can also serve as a slaughter pact for the matches you really need it. I've been goldfishing a version with it and (in a vacuum) it's been fairly nice for consistency.

[Mr. Safety]

Generally teachings is better. When you pass a turn without casting a spell it can signal an open window for opponents to establish a board or threaten an eot peer or teachings. Even if you don't have it they will often play around it, buying you precious time. Tolaria must be used during your turn, giving opponents clearly a chance to make better decisions. The ability of this deck to combo at instant speed is really important.

As a land, tolaria west sucks, just a tapped island. The scry lands have proven their usefulness by providing dig. Tolaria needs to be seen as a spell, not a land. As a spell it is less powerful than teachings or even thirst for knowledge really.