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Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 09:33 AM
Bug-Eyed Control

The deck has evolved quite a bit, starting out as a control deck, then moving into a reanimator style deck, now back to a control deck. I found too often that when I was using Mannequin and Eternal Witness I didn't really want a heavy hitter, I wanted my control back. I felt that Fauna Shaman (outside of Dredgevine) was more of a liability than a help. I have adjusted this list to get some mana acceleration as well (Birds of Paradise) which has improved it's playability DRAMATICALLY.

Bug-Eyed Control(updated 1/21/12)
Creatures - 13
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Tombstalker
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Eternal Witness
1x Shriekmaw
4x Kitchen Finks

Instants - 12
4x Mana Leak
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Smother
1x Doom Blade
3x Forbidden Alchemy

Sorceries - 7
2x Duress
1x Raven's Crime
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life from the Loam
1x Profane Command
1x Crime & Punishment

Artifacts - 4
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Coalition Relic

Lands - 24
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Flooded Grove
1x Twilight Mire
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Trinket Mage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Damnation
2x Duress
3x Nature's Claim
2x Ancient Grudge


Card explanations


Birds of Paradise - much needed turn 1 play, acceleration and mana fixing

Vendilion Clique - quite possibly THE BEST blue creature in the format. The disruption is great, and I've used it to cycle one of my own cards often enough. The ability to flash in and chump block while disrupting is nice as well.

Tombstalker - big evasive beats, my graveyard is usually full to make it happen. I haven't run into any situations where it has messed up my graveyard shenanigans (*yet*)

Eternal Witness - chaining Witness with Mannequin can bring back the control elements that were discarded with Gifts, or just bring back removal or counterspells. Just great value from this card all around.

Gifts Ungiven - I'm just waiting for someone to do something broken with Gifts, but I haven't seen it yet. Porting this with Witness makes for a deck with incredible resilience and recursion power. Gifts is as close to Intiution in modern as we'll ever get, I think.

Maelstrom Pulse - utility removal, pure and simple. Deals with planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts, and creatures.

Mana Leak and Deprive - the format will have a scant amount of permission...these both allow the deck to get to the mid-game, which is where it shines. I'm not using Path, so they should have value throughout the game.

Halimar Depths - the best library manipulation for control right now, given it's synergy with Deprive.

Profane Command - reanimation to abuse with Eternal Witness. Usually one or the other is in my Gifts pile to abuse with Witness. Profane and Witness make for an incredible late-game engine, possibly the best late-game available in modern right now.

Gifts silver bulllets:


Phantasmal Image - swiss army knife, copying Finks, Witness, Tombstalker, or my opponent's stuff. Usually part of the Gifts pile.

Kitchen Finks - usually paired with Image against zoo, RDW, and other decks that don't like to see lifegain.

Engineered Explosives - same as Maelstrom Pulse, it has value against most decks.

Dismember - so far, this seems like the best removal spell to use. It could be Putrefy, but I want to have a potential unconditional 1-mana removal (Vendetta doesn't look good to me...)

Crime//Punishment - redundant Engineered Explosives, as close to Pernicious Deed as I'll get besides EE. Birds let me potentially cast Crime. :smile:

Life from the Loam - usually part of the pile with Raven's Crime so I can get a solid discard engine rolling. Once I have a threat on the table and the board under control, this helps to seal the win. It works really good against combo decks, getting online as early as turn 3. Recurs GQ's against 12-post.

Jace Beleren - I'm not sure what the best additional draw is for the deck, I'm using Jace for now. Forbidden Alchemy has my attention thouth.

Sideboard considerations:

Trinket Mage - tutors up control elements, and gets reusable with mannequin.
- Pithing Needle - for grim lavamancer et al
- Nihil Spellbomb - cantrip grave hate
- Engineered Explosives #2 - for the zoo/aggro matchup
- Executioner's Capsule (Emmy/creature hate)

Duress - for the combo/control matchups. It really shines vs. control, fishing out counterspells or problematic elements like opposing Gifts.

Nature's Claim - cheap hate, it works well.

Black Sun's Zenith - more aggro hate


I look forward to getting some good discussion going in this thread so I can optimize this deck for modern.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 11:00 AM
Matchup Analysis so far:

Combo:

Second Sunrise - this matchup is actually really good. I haven't lost a match yet to this deck (MWS), and I've only lost 1 game. Total games = 9 (3 matches, we played the 3rd even though I already won games 1 & 2) Any amount of disruption or permission just wrecks this deck. Put both together (like Duress and Spell Pierce x2 in the sideboard added to Mana Leak and Spell Snare in the maindeck.) Vendilion Clique is also awesome, but anything works as a win/con, because you can postpone the combo really well.

Aggro:

Bant - this matchup is winnable...but the more aggro oriented it is, the harder it gets. The more control oriented it gets, I think the easier the matchup will be. I've only played one matchup (3 games on MWS) so far, and it does ok, but I lost 1-2. The longer the game goes, the better odds my deck has against it. I think the control-oriented version would be about 50/50 (speculation) but the aggro-oriented version is likely 40/60 in their favor. I haven't tried it against zoo yet, which is the benchmark for aggro.

Zoo - this matchup is also winnable, but tough. Game one is all about keeping dudes off the table. Gifts tutors up Kitchen Finks and the recursion brings back Pulses, Shrieky's, and Explosives. Sideboarding Deathmark gives the deck a crap-ton of removal and Basilisk Collar can swing my life total back to parity while also acting as removal. This matchup wasn't as bad as I thought...definately winnable, especially vs. the Big Zoo variants with a slightly slower board development. Sligh is tough, no doubt.

Wereodile
08-22-2011, 11:10 AM
This list looks better then the one you posted in a previous thread, I like the Profane command for mid/end game and I rather like Kitchen Finks I think have a couple extra of those in the board would help out a lot with the Zoo matchup and they play nice with board sweeping effects.

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 11:27 AM
Profane was your idea, and I LOVED it. I ended up using it instead of Makeshift Mannequin #4. I've already pulled it out in testing to kill Rafiq of the Many, get Eternal Witness back from the graveyard, which brought back Shriekmaw for more killing action. Nice find, and I already had 3 Profane's handy to test with.

More finks in the sideboard may be smart...but I think I'd like to work with a Trinket Mage toolbox...possibly Elixir of Immortality with that sort of approach.

Wereodile
08-22-2011, 12:18 PM
Having Eternal Witness, Trinket Mage with Gifts means having access to tonnes of tech but you don't want to dilute the original game plan to much.

Being a mid range deck the control match ups are pretty solid so that leaves the faster aggro and combo decks. The Bulk of the sideboard tech should be focused. So that means cheap disruption (Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek) and board sweepers capable of dealing with X/3 creatures (Black Sun Zenith)

I like the idea of Pithing Needle, Effigy and the various other artifacts (Phyrexian Revoker) coming in from the board to help shore up some matchups is there room for a Academy Ruins MB?

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Possibly...or I may just go with Buried Ruin. Same activation cost, but it puts it into hand rather than on top. Recurrable with Loam, too.

I was thinking that Trinket Mage with Mannequin would be pretty intense, but maybe you're right. There might be too much going on to make an effective deck.

I like Black Sun's Zenith, and I have one so it goes into the sideboard straight away. It doesn't play well with Finks, but that's ok. Mannequin, Profane, and Witness can always get Finks back.

The combo matchup isn't really that hard actually, so far. I need to get in a lot more testing to be sure. What I really need is a better game vs. aggro, hence the sideboarded Trinket Mage with Basilisk Collar and Executioner's Capsule. I'm not 100% sold on that plan though...again, I need to get in some real playtesting time.

Wereodile
08-22-2011, 12:44 PM
It's not that I don't like Trinket Mage he is great but he requires at least 3-8 slots of tech to be really effective, If I were going to run him I would try him MB but then it becomes more of a Trinket/Gifts build which may also be viable in this format with Tezzert etc but I like the direction this is going with the 187 plan.

I am totally stumped at the moment on black board sweepers able to give at least -3/-3 but EE's and Ratchet Bombs should be enough to control the ground against Zoo

Mr. Safety
08-22-2011, 02:51 PM
I could play Damnation...but I have the BSZ, so that will be tested first. I have an extra Explosives that I will be using in the sideboard as well (total of 2.)

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 07:28 AM
Who the hell changed my thread title?

perm
08-23-2011, 08:29 AM
Looks very fun to play, but how do you fare against very fast aggro decks like sligh or zoo? You don't seem to have very many ways to stabilize

Also, 12post ******ry seems like it will do you in, you lack hard counters

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking of Familiar's Ruse/Deprive taking a Mana Leak slot. Cryptic Command is the big one that I'm missing...but I'm not sure if that's what the deck needs. Possibly...but my mana-base worries me a little bit. I'll test out a singleton Deprive.

So far, the aggro matchup has been about equal...but not stellar. This deck was designed with great matchups vs. the combo and control of the format, and decent odds vs. aggro. The aggro of the format I felt could be sideboarded appropriately. With 4 Shriekmaws, 2 Pulses, BSZ, Profane Command, and Dismember in the maindeck I think I have decent odds vs. creature based aggro. What worries me is RDW...so I may have to do something with a life-gain solution beyond a single Finks in the main.

Updated list: Gifts 187

Dudes - 17
4x Shriekmaw
4x Mulldrifter
3x Eternal Witness
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Kitchen Finks

Spells - 20
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
1x Deprive
1x Familiar's Ruse
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Makeshift Mannequin
2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Profane Command
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Dismember
1x Life from the Loam

Lands - 23
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Buried Ruin
1x Treetop Village
2x Sunken Ruins
1x Twilight Mire
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard (testing)
3x Trinket Mage
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Deathmark
1x Pithing Needle
3x Natur'es Claim
2x Duress
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Nihil Spellbomb


I'm a little concerned at the lack of Ponder...we shall see if it becomes neccessary. I think Gifts and Mully should take care of business, but playing without Brainstorm (theoretically speaking) feels a little, well, wrong.

Wereodile
08-23-2011, 01:23 PM
What about Sea Gate Oracle? It saw some play in standard and lets you basically scry 2 and draw 1 but for 3 I do not know if the value is there.

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Yuck, I don't want Sea Gate Oracle. I'd play Coiling Oracle before I played Sea Gate.

I'm actually contemplating putting Mystic Snake in there instead of Deprive...

Wereodile
08-23-2011, 02:39 PM
My thought process was a "187" Scry/Dig dude might help with card quality at least, like the Cream of the crop you had in the list earlier.

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 02:44 PM
Yeah, you're moving in the right direction...but he's not powerful enough to take any slots up. I think you'll agree that Coiling Oracle and Mystic Snake are both superior options.

Wereodile
08-23-2011, 02:47 PM
Yeah, you're moving in the right direction...but he's not powerful enough to take any slots up. I think you'll agree that Coiling Oracle and Mystic Snake are both superior options.

I will now administer 10 lashes for forgetting the existence of Coiling Oracle. I will shall return afterwards with better ideas :)

Mr. Safety
08-23-2011, 04:15 PM
No worries...Sea Gate Oracle isn't a BAD idea, I just think the others are slightly better. What I like about Coiling Oracle is the fact that it can ramp mana OR just cantrip. It gets revealed, but so what?

Mr. Safety
08-24-2011, 09:28 AM
I'm debating a reanimation package for the deck to go along with Gifts, instead of Tombstalker:

Angel of Despair
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Woodfall Primus
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Terastodon


I'm looking for any more good targets that would make Gifts/Mannequin really awesome.

EDIT: Fauna Shaman in, and probably pretty damn GOOD. Still working on the right reanimation package, but Angel of Despair and Iona will definately be there. Thinking about Oona's Prowler, too...

Smasher
08-30-2011, 01:45 PM
I saw 6 fetches. You could make the treetop village into a stomping ground and one of the swamps into a blood crypt and run some sideboard firespouts giving you the 3 damage you are looking for.

This plan would also enable EE to be set on 4 which might turn out to be rather useful depending on what decks end up seeing heavy play.

Some bounce would be nice even if its a 1 of. I'm looking at venser, shaper savant to fit the theme of your deck as probably the first choice. I could also see a 1 of cryptic command or a pair of repeals. Repeal is timewalk against zoo/boros style decks.

Remand while not being a hard counter is another time walk against zoo and it will still buy that turn against combo to start recurring disruptive creatures.

One more thing worth mentioning is the red splash allows access to ancient grudges in the sideboard as well.

Hopefully something here is useful to you. Deck looks fun, strong, and worth the time making it better.

Mr. Safety
08-30-2011, 02:49 PM
Thanks Smasher. I was thinking of a 4th color, and red was my first inclination SPECIFICALLY for Firespout. Good call there...

Venser is badass...I'll find a way to make him work (possibly dropping down to 2 Prowlers for testing purposes.) I have a singleton Echoing Truth in the sideboard...but I'd rather let stuff die so I can put it into play with Mannequin. *shrug* I'm not sure about maindeck bounce spells, but Venser has some appeal for sure.

Repeal is a little gem I hadn't thought of yet...here I was considering Condescend and you bring this to the table. Nice.

As far as Remand goes...I want it to work in this setup, but I can't see it happening. I'd rather have Echoing Truth. The cantrip is so sweet, but I think Venser is a lot stronger. REGARDLESS, I am never opposed to good suggestions. I'll playtest it in the Spell Snare slots.

Cryptic Command is tough to play as far as color requirements go...the :u::u::u::1: has me worried.

Mr. Safety
09-12-2011, 11:10 AM
I have been testing this deck quite a bit...and I have come to the conclusion that it needs Birds of Paradise for acceleration. I'm not sure if the reanimation package is really viable, just because of the ease of which Fauna Shaman is hated out (Spell Snare, Punishing Fire, any removal really.)

I have decided to overhaul the deck back into a much more control-oriented strategy. I found I was playing the control in almost every matchup, which is fine...but I had too slow of a clock to matter. I think Garruk will help with board position while I keep the opponent in check.

I'm also eyeballing Smallpox. It might be just what the deck needs to get to the tier 1.5 realm (right now it's tier 2 I think)

I hope some other folks can pipe in here...I think (along with a lot of folks) that there needs to be a decent control option in Modern. This may not be it, but I'm sure as hell going to try.

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2011, 02:45 PM
I've tried your original version and your new version honestly doesn't look better. Smallpox is terrible in a deck that wants to hit a lot of mana to control the late game, it really isn't what you want in this deck (or any control deck that runs creatures... hitting your land, a bird, and a card in hand is just plain terrible for you).

On the subject of BUG, it seems to me like there really isn't a reason to be playing black in here when it is solely for removal. Makeshift Mannequin is cute but I assume you're coming to the realization that it's only a cute card that you have in there for a gifts pile, whereas gifts piles don't really need cute cards like that.

The other problem with black is that Shriekmaw just isn't good in almost any matchup right now, when compared with white's removal (Path to Exile specifically). Shriek can't stop Splinter Twin, he can't hit affinity, can't hit Dark Confidant, and he's pretty much as useless as Path is against 12 post. In terms of decks left in the format the only thing he's decent against is zoo, and he can't hit a turn 1 nacatl like Path can. Putrefy seems better than Pulse right now too just because instant speed is so relevant against many decks.

Another huge reason I found to switch to white is Noble Hierarch > Birds of Paradise. He gives you a clock that is so needed in control decks in this format. BoP sit out there uselessly.

I definitely think you need better counters in here, and the best one that you don't have is Cryptic Command. That card is just crazy good right now, and for a deck wanting to hit 4 mana early it will win you games.

One more thing, to really get mana accel going you should borrow from the RUG gifts thread and use 3 or 4 Green Sun's Zenith. It'll help you get to 4 mana by turn 3 every game, instead of just when you hit your 4 of birds. Here's the list I was last running (I know it's white but our black and white splashes play the same rolls in the deck, with white playing it better imo).


// Lands 23
1 Flooded Grove
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Academy Ruins
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
3 Breeding Pool
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy

// Creatures 12
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
4 Noble Hierarch

// Spells 25
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Path to Exile
1 Beast Within
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Cryptic Command
4 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Mr. Safety
09-12-2011, 03:08 PM
Well reasoned...I've been playing Smallpox BEFORE Birds, actually. If I have Smallpox and good situation to abuse it, I play it turn 2. If I don't have Smallpox but I have Birds, I run out Birds turn 1 to accelerate. No matter when I play Smallpox, I think I'll be ahead in mana against the aggro decks (which is what Smallpox is for)

Turn 2 is ideal for Smallpox, especially against infect, zoo, and anything using mana-dorks. If someone only has a land + Dryad Arbor, I just destroyed 2 lands for :b::b:. I'm saying it's awesome, I'm just saying it might be good.

I'm still committed to black, for now...for Profane Command. It really is that good. I also like the Black Sun's Zenith's out of the sideboard.

As far as 12-post goes, I've done turn 3 Mannequin/Skrieky often enough. Mannequin is the entire reason to be playing Shriekmaw/Mulldrifter. That and the loop with Witness.

As far as a clock goes, don't think I've forgotten about Tombstalker. I have 3 just waiting to be shoved in there. If Smallpox ends up being no good (very possible...) then I can work in the Stalkers.

I understand that you favor white over black...but this thread is for BUG lists. If I could, I'd put in 4 big Jace and drop the dudes for more control. I may simply put Inquisition of Kozilek into the deck in lieu of Smallpox, but I'm still testing.

Your version looks good...but I'd rather just play straight up Bant instead of your list. Rhox War Monk, Rafiq, and some Bant Charms alongside the Cryptics, Paths, Mindcensors, GSZ's and Nobles.

Have you tested the Smallpox version? I'm curious about your testing of the original deck, I can't even remember where I started, lol.

EDIT: I totally forgot to put Loam in that list. I'll fix it now.

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2011, 03:25 PM
I playtested the version before you tried to start reanimating things because that looked like a terrible idea to me.

I have not tested smallpox in this deck, but played it enough in legacy to know that this is the type of deck that you want to play it against. Also you're using utility creatures and want to get to 4 mana, that's 2 huge strikes against it. Match that with the fact that half of the decks you play against won't be playing creatures until they win and you've got a disaster waiting. Mainly it just isn't card advantage, which you really need against the format.

After 12 post lands a creature it usually doesn't matter how dead it is, they've gotten the mana out now, what specifically they use to kill you is irrelevant. Titans and Emrakul don't need to be answered after they're played, they need to be dealt with before they are played.

If you really wanted to stick with black I'd go more for the Raven's Crime , Life from the Loam type engine. It's black's biggest advantage here, and is actually decent against a lot of decks right now.

Here's something along the lines of what I'd run if I was going to play BUG... take from it what you want.


// Lands
1 Flooded Grove
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Academy Ruins
1 Breeding Pool
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Watery Grave

// Creatures
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Birds of Paradise

// Spells
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Cryptic Command
4 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Executioner's Capsule
2 Dismember
2 Raven's Crime
2 Putrefy
2 Life from the Loam

Mr. Safety
09-12-2011, 03:32 PM
Thanks! I'll take your suggestion to heart. I have 2 Raven's Crimes, 2 Loams, and 3 Putrefy's to use.

I'm also thinking of using Crime//Punishment, which I also have.

I'm actually going to try out Buried Ruin in lieu of Academy Ruins...it goes back to hand, which is a minor upgrade, and Loam gets it back.

Check the OP for the changes. Thanks for the tips!

EDIT: I'm letting go of my pet cards, lol. Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, and Makeshift Mannequin. Gifts is just so much more powerful than Mannequin, so putting in better control cards is just smart play. Thanks again! Much appreciated. :wink:

Phoenix Ignition
09-14-2011, 11:14 PM
EDIT: I'm letting go of my pet cards, lol. Shriekmaw, Mulldrifter, and Makeshift Mannequin. Gifts is just so much more powerful than Mannequin, so putting in better control cards is just smart play. Thanks again! Much appreciated. :wink:
:tongue:Sometimes we all have to let go of our pet cards.

The new decklist looks a lot tighter, which is great for a control deck. I actually can't think of anything to take out for this suggestion, maybe 1 Dismember, but you should add at least 1 Slaughter Pact. They are amazing at getting around things like Spell Pierce and Mana Leak, while being an instant speed removal whose drawback sometimes isn't even worse than just paying it out front. Having that would give you better gifts piles when you're looking for a kill spell, since Pact + Dismember + Eternal witness would be very mean. Witnessing it back and playing it in one turn without worrying about mana is great too.

How has Phantasmal Image been playing for you? It honestly doesn't seem that great but I haven't tried it at all. I would think though that being able to copy the opponent's creatures for 1 extra mana might be better (Phyrexian Metamorph) since you don't have a high number of threats in here.

Mr. Safety
09-15-2011, 07:48 AM
I actually just wrote an article about pet cards on www.mtgfanatic.com. It will be published next week, lol.

Shrieky, Mully, and Mannequin have been competitive at various times in the past couple of years. I was seeing if they still are (outside of Esper-colored Blink) and I came to the conclusion that they are not good for the deck.

The deck has been playing absurdly well lately, BTW. I will most likely be looking to put a Slaughter Pact into my maindeck in place of another card. Crime/Loam has been AWESOME, and makes my Gifts pile vs. control decks very nice. I'm lovin' this setup, for sure.

Phantasmal Image can indeed copy my opponent's creatures. That's what makes it so damn good. Copying Emrakul, Ulamog, or Kozilek is just fun stuff. Copying Primeval Titan is fun stuff. Hell, just copying Kitchen Finks, Tombstalker, and Eternal Witness is great value. Phantasmal Image gets gifts that much closer to intution...because it's a redundant copy of one of your creatures that you dig out.

Phoenix Ignition
09-15-2011, 08:13 PM
Oops, I apparently can't read that card. It seems decent, though I don't think it's going to help your gifts pile (when would they give you good creature + phantasm?). As a 1 of it's probably fine though, as there are usually legendarys that need killing.

Mr. Safety
09-19-2011, 08:46 AM
They won't have a choice on whether they give me good creatures or not, lol. I usually fetch Finks/Witness/Profane Command/Phantasmal Image. If they give me finks/Image, I'm all set. If they give me Witness/Profane, I reanimate stuff. If I get Profane Command in hand and Witness in the graveyard, I'm doing pretty well, as I just reanimate Witness and get my other goodies back (usually Profane Command so I can reanimate Image/Finks) At that point in the game, I'm pretty much dominating (which I should be with a control deck.) Getting there is the tricky part vs. some decks. The permission and bombs really help to give me good odds of getting to the mid-late game.

Mr. Safety
09-20-2011, 08:33 AM
Ponder has been replaced by these ATM:

+1 Mystic Speculation
+2 Perilous Research
+1 Raven's Crime

Crime is awesome, and I may put my other Loam in there to increase consistency slightly. If control gets viable, this is the engine to fight that, for sure.

Mr. Safety
10-17-2011, 08:28 AM
Bump...still playing this deck, and still winning a fair amount of games.

Changes recently have been:

-Tumble Magnet in the board (I haven't sided it in once...it has left for Duress #3, which has been great)

+2 Profane Command and +2 Eternal Witness (total of 3 each) - these 2 make for an awesome end-game, grinding out card advantage and giving me a bunch of extra turns to whittle down life directly with Profane while killing creatures, recurring Witness after blocking, and just having Profane always available. Cornerstone of the deck, for sure.

+3 Halimar Depths and +3 Deprive - awesome synergy, it has pulled me through in so many games. I'm debating 4 Deprive and 3 Mana Leak, but for now it's reversed.

+1 Raven's Crime - honestly, I might play 4 in the maindeck. It's just so good at attacking my opponent's hand. The only thing keeping me back from playing 4 is that I think a 3rd Life from the Loam would be advisable before I put in the 4th RC.

Still hoping for some interest in this deck...it works really, really well with one of the best late-games in modern right now with Witness/Profane.

hi-val
10-17-2011, 11:46 AM
Can you post an updated list? Anything controlly that runs black and blue makes me look at how I can cram red mana in to Cruel Ultimatum people. In my bits of testing with the card, it just ends things on the spot against most decks.

Mr. Safety
10-17-2011, 01:43 PM
I updated the OP with the current list. My most current list is always put in the OP with a date of update.

Cruel Ultimatum is indeed powerful tech, but I fear a massive overhaul of the mana base if I wanted to consistently get the :r::r: for it's casting cost. Even with Birds, the deck has a greedy spell base (:u::u: for Deprive, :b::b: for Profane Command, and :g::g: for Eternal Witness) For me, I think the singleton Crime//Punishment is much easier to splash for (all I need is a :w: from Birds or Horizon Canopy) and it can have just as devastating an effect by reanimating an opponent's fatty.

For discussion's sake, what would you do with the red vs. green other than CU? This is the 'BUG Gifts' thread, but it could turn into the 'BURG Gifts' thread (am I the only one that thinks that is funny?)

4eak
10-17-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm actually working on Cruel Control right now. In my eyes, Cruel Ultimatum is a "build around" card, and I think it belongs in a deck which is fairly different from BUG Gifts (which is already built around Gifts). Gifts and Cruel aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but I think the requirements of both the coloration and general construction of these cards push the deck in different directions. I'm not sure if it is something we should try to 'force' into the deck; they don't seem to naturally fit together. I'd love to be wrong about this though, as Cruel and Gifts are some of my favorite cards in the game.

Going BUrg seems to beg this deck to play Fire/Grove (even if only as singletons).


peace,
4eak

Mr. Safety
10-17-2011, 04:13 PM
I agree there...or at least use Grim Lavamancer if you're not using Grove/Fires. The BUG route allows me to use Tombstalker (which is probably my favorite beater in modern right now...avoids Spell Snare and has flying) which I think conflicts with Grim too much to do together (unless the rest of your deck is all graveyard-enabling gas.) Grove/Fires is great, but I think with weapons like Explosives, Crime/Punishment, and Black Sun's Zenith available, I'd rather use those and avoid the red splash.

I agree with you 4eak...I was just hoping for a little more 'super secret tech' from hi-val. I agree that CU is a build-around card for sure. Gifts is a build-around with a lot more flexibility (which I think you'll agree on.) I think I'm already pushing the limits with 3 color Gifts...4 color Gifts would be greedy in the extreme, IMHO.

Mr. Safety
10-18-2011, 02:34 PM
Here is my current list (as requested by hi-val):

Bug-Eyed Control(updated 10/17)

Creatures - 14
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Eternal Witness
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Kitchen Finks

Instants - 10
3x Mana Leak
2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Deprive
1x Dismember

Sorceries - 11
3x Raven's Crime
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Life from the Loam
3x Profane Command
1x Crime//Punishment

Artifacts - 1
1x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers - 1
1x Jace Beleren

Lands - 23
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Halimar Depths
1x Buried Ruin
2x Sunken Ruins
1x Twilight Mire
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Trinket Mage
3x Spell Pierce
1x Pithing Needle
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Black Sun's Zenith
3x Duress
2x Nature's Claim

Mr. Safety
10-27-2011, 12:35 PM
I've had some criticism for liking Deprive + Halimar Depths so much (it was constructive criticism, no worries there.)

I've been testing it, and so far Deprive is the real deal. I like it better than the other options so far. It has worked well enough for me to play 4 Deprive and drop to 3 Mana Leak.

Trentemoller
10-28-2011, 08:56 AM
I haven't tested yet but I have been thinking about this list, have you considered at least the following two lands, I think they fit very well:

Urborg seems very sexy with gifts, if you gifts for Loam, Urborg, Ghost Quarter and Raven's Crime I have a hard time believing losing to control.

Creeping Tar Pit seems like a good extra win-condition that's able to loam back and seems good against planeswalkers.

Have you tested Liliana? I'm less certain about her than the two lands but she seems pretty sweet. Also, I think a red splash for Firespout should make the aggro matchups much better. Definetely gonna test this deck.

Mr. Safety
10-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Firespout is definately in the back of my mind...but it's already a 3-color deck (4 if you count Crime/Punishment). I could cast Firespout off of Birds, but that seems a bit risky (when you consider I can just use Black Sun's Zenith a little more reliably.) I don't see the gain by adding in red. Black has been just too damn good (Raven's Crime and Profane Command = all-stars)

What's your reasoning for Urborg, just fixing mana so I can perpetually use Raven's Crime with any land on the battlfield, or turning colorless lands into black producing lands? Honestly, Raven's Crime once or twice a turn is plenty, and my current mana-base does that just fine. Once you hit the mid game, if you've run their hand out with Crime it loses a lot of steam. If they re-fill their hand, it becomes awesome...but that is rare. I see no need for Urborg.

Creeping Tar Pit seems good...I don't know how, but I missed adding in Treetop Village on my list. I like the idea, and it's in my primary colors of U/B rather than my green splash.

Liliana is definately on my mind, potentially dropping the Jace Beleren for her. I don't have any ATM (which isn't too much of a problem, as I mostly play on MWS with this.) I have not tested Liliana yet...but it seems like it could be good. I have my doubts (theoretically) because the Raven's Crime effect from her is redundant, but the Edict effect is nice. The one-sided Pox effect as an ultimate seems unneccessary...if I've gotten to that stage in the game, I'm ridin' Profane Command/Eternal Witness or Tombstalker to victory. On paper, seems unneccessary. I don't discount ideas based on theory though, I always (well almost always) test suggestions before discounting them entirely.

Mr. Safety
12-22-2011, 07:45 AM
More bannings, and now the worst matchup has been eliminated! Yeah wizards! Enabling pet decks since 2011 with modern bannings!

I have to say it's a bit of a let-down when the only way to make a deck truly viable is to cripple the bad matchups. When they hosed combo I was pretty upset...because I built this deck for the distinct reason of having a great matchup against combo (without hands-down losing to aggro.) Then I had to switch gears to be able to have a chance against aggro but not auto-lose to the remaining combo in the format.

Now the format is a gelatinous mass of pet decks and 'wtf'. Hooray! If you aren't catching my sarcasm, it's very real. I'm not happy about the bannings. Having a good deck 'by default' is fairly suck-ass dumb.

menace13
12-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Few questions, Mr.Safe. Why isn't Academy Ruins in the deck? The Gifts piles it enables with Loam are very strong and it is better than Buried Ruin on all accounts. Why not play Worm Harvest? Worm Harvest would go a long way for dousing aggro and giving a win condition that can't be removed unlike Stalker. I don't feel that the 2nd Loam and 2 extra Raven's are better than the 3rd and 4th Gifts. This also frees up a slot. Isn't Tutoring for them easier with 4 Gifts?

Mr. Safety
12-23-2011, 07:43 AM
Few questions, Mr.Safe. Why isn't Academy Ruins in the deck? The Gifts piles it enables with Loam are very strong and it is better than Buried Ruin on all accounts. Why not play Worm Harvest? Worm Harvest would go a long way for dousing aggro and giving a win condition that can't be removed unlike Stalker. I don't feel that the 2nd Loam and 2 extra Raven's are better than the 3rd and 4th Gifts. This also frees up a slot. Isn't Tutoring for them easier with 4 Gifts?

You are absolutely right, given the shakeups that are bound to happen in the near future given the new bannings.

Buried Ruin was to upgrade the card to being in my hand rather than on top of my library...when games go long, the option to double-Explosives in one turn was pretty hot. Without any premium dig spells (Ponder,Preordain) Academy Ruins was harder to pull off on my turn. It didn't happen often, but occasionally I'd need my blue mana for Deprive/Mana Leak/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce and Buried Ruin is colorless, allowing me to do both in one turn. With Loam in the mix, Buried Ruin became reliable enough to make the change.

I will be going to 4 Gifts, and likely trimming out some of the redundant copies for that reason.

This is my plan (almost exactly what you suggested):

-1 Profane Command
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime

+2 Gifts Ungiven
+1 Damnation

That seems like a good starting place for changes. I'm also re-considering the man-land route with Creeping Tar Pit and additional Treetop Villages. Realms Uncharted may make an appearance and some of the creatures dissappearing for additional lands. The deck is mana-hungry, so getting up to 24-26 lands along with Realms Uncharted/man-lands seems like a potential option. It just seems so damn slow...

Thanks for the comment! What would you add to the mix to make Academy Ruins more valuable? Executioner's Capsule or Spellbombs? I'm thinking that Academy Ruins needs to come back into the list.

menace13
12-23-2011, 10:22 AM
You are absolutely right, given the shakeups that are bound to happen in the near future given the new bannings.

Buried Ruin was to upgrade the card to being in my hand rather than on top of my library...when games go long, the option to double-Explosives in one turn was pretty hot. Without any premium dig spells (Ponder,Preordain) Academy Ruins was harder to pull off on my turn. It didn't happen often, but occasionally I'd need my blue mana for Deprive/Mana Leak/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce and Buried Ruin is colorless, allowing me to do both in one turn. With Loam in the mix, Buried Ruin became reliable enough to make the change.

I will be going to 4 Gifts, and likely trimming out some of the redundant copies for that reason.

This is my plan (almost exactly what you suggested):

-1 Profane Command
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime

+2 Gifts Ungiven
+1 Damnation

That seems like a good starting place for changes. I'm also re-considering the man-land route with Creeping Tar Pit and additional Treetop Villages. Realms Uncharted may make an appearance and some of the creatures dissappearing for additional lands. The deck is mana-hungry, so getting up to 24-26 lands along with Realms Uncharted/man-lands seems like a potential option. It just seems so damn slow...

Thanks for the comment! What would you add to the mix to make Academy Ruins more valuable? Executioner's Capsule or Spellbombs? I'm thinking that Academy Ruins needs to come back into the list.

I like Ex Capsule a lot, but I think Nihil Spellbomb would be better as EE can already clear any creature that Capsule would and Birthing Pod, Kitchen Finks and Mirrors can be trumped with Spellbomb. Singelton Wurmcoil could possibly be played. I don't feel Realms is needed with 4 Gifts. Have been testing Gifts on MODO, but my list is very random and the manabase is all over the place as I'm tinkering with a BGWU list.

Mr. Safety
12-23-2011, 03:30 PM
I considered a white splash as it can provide Path to Exile, Ethersworn Canonist against combo, I can more reliably cast the Crime side of Crime//Punisment, even Oblivion Ring would be solid. I didn't want to spread too thin on colors because Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon are still incredibly problematic trumps to multiple-color control decks in the format.

Litorers
01-04-2012, 06:54 PM
Okay, so I've kept working on the BUG style deck and it has taken me down a gifts rock direction, which seems most reminiscent of the deck Mr. Nakamura played. This kind of deck seems well positioned against everything but combo, as your late game trumps are almost impossible to win through. It also has advantages over the regular rock in the form of blue sideboard options, snapcaster mage, and the deck's namesake, Gifts Ungiven.

The deck seems to have enormous potential. It randomly trumps almost everything, and graveyard hate only really serves to make unwinnable game states for your opponents disadvantageous. I'm mostly worried that the deck is not stream lined enough: I posted my old list a few posts back, and the newer version is certainly more "tuned", but the mana base isn't perfect, I have no idea what kind of counters are optimal in this deck, and the creature removal suite is .... uncertain. There are also still multiple flex slots in the deck, and I would like to know your guys' opinions on what they aught to be.
If you guys could help streamline the deck, that'd be a great help!

"Don't die" creatures 7
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Kitchen Finks

Core pieces 11

2x Eternal Witness
4x Gifts Ungiven
1x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
1x Profane Command
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Worm Harvest

Removal 6
I'm not sure this is the best suite, but here's what I'm running.
1x Shriekmaw
1x Go for the throat
1x Doom Blade
1x Maelstrom pulse
2x Smother

Permission 5
Extremely unsure on what to run in these slots
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Negate
1x Dissipate

Sweepers 4
These I'm quite happy with, but if an Infest finds its way into the maindeck then w/e.
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Damnation
1x Oblivion Stone

Lands 24
1x Breeding Pool
1x Buried Ruin
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x River of Tears
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
2x Woodland Cemetery

3 FLEX SLOTS

Sideboard

4x Leyline of the Void
1x Necroplasm
1x Spellskite
2x Nature's Claim
3x Spell Pierce
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Infest
1x Duress
1x Inquisition of Kozilek

The deck has multiple engines that it can make use of, and in that way it almost functions as a combo deck, albeit a very slow one. The more notable ones are as follows:
Life from the loam + Raven's Crime
or Worm Harvest
or Buried Ruin + Oblivion Stone

The loam engine also allows you to recycle such lands as Ghost Quarter and Creeping Tar Pit. Gifts can effectually search out an assortment of these pieces to begin winning you the game, if the board allows you to do so. The normal "Get me this card" gifts pile goes Eternal Witness, Profane Command, Snapcaster Mage, and a card of your choice. While a lot of these cards are good on their own, together they work to generate card advantage and to get you the card you wanted, hopefully taking control of the board.

Another interaction worth noting is the one between Kitchen Finks and Oran-Rief, the Vastwood. While not unbeatable, it does usually buy you a lot of time, if not win you the game, against most aggro decks.

The sideboard, like the permission and removal slots, is constantly in flux, but Leyline of the Void seems good against the U/R storm decks, as their main engines are graveyard based and their backup plan in that case is to run a lot of men out with Empty the Warrens, which is why your spot removal comes out and your permission goes in + Necroplasm. He is a bit of a nonbo with your other guys, but he wraths tokens, beats afterwards, and comes back to wrath tokens again. The Spellskite is to help a little bit more in the twin match up and to stone wall burn, as Buried Ruin can grab it back from the yard. I've found that the artifact hate being able to hit enchantments is pretty relevant, as that way it can also function as effective sb material vs Affinity, Melira (kinda) and Twin/Twinpod.

Obviously, nothing is absolutely set in stone, but that's my train of thought. Hopefully we can get this BUG gifts stuff tuned, it has enormous potential. Cheers!

Mr. Safety
01-05-2012, 09:54 AM
Black Sun's Zenith doesn't play well with Kitchen Finks, FYI. I really like Crime//Punishment in that slot, or even Engineered Explosives (which is a beast in this deck alongside Buried Ruin/Life from the Loam)

I love your list...I originally had Birds of Paradise in place of STE, but I'm really thinking it could be better to have the fog-like effect of STE along with the mana-ramp potential. I'm also a big fan of Halimar Depths, so having a turn 2 STE seems a lot better on the curve.

Spell Pierces and additional targeted discard in the sideboard should be fine against combo.

I'm really curious: what do you feel Snapcaster brings to this deck? I would think a heavy-duty threat would be better spent here like Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker (I opted for tombstalker). Worm Harvest can get you there, sure...but Tombstalker can be a real deterrent to threats like Vendilion Clique.

Other options to consider:

Phantasmal Image
Mind Shatter


Phantasmal Image copies your utility creatures like Witness and Kitchen Finks, as well as hosing opposing legendary creatures. Mind Shatter seems like it would be nuts against opposing control decks or anything that relies on a fat hand to function. In the mid-late game, it can push some decks right out of the game. In some games, I've had to make the choice between ramping into bombs or using Raven's Crime to rape their hand. This solves that quandry by allowing you to ramp into Mind Shatter and have mana available for your other bombs.

If I were to go to a modern tournament tomorrow, this is what I would bring:

Creatures - 11
2x Eternal Witness
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Tombstalker
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Shriekmaw
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder

Sorceries - 11
1x Raven's Crime
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Profane Command
1x Damnation
1x Crime (Crime/Punishment)
1x Mind Shatter
1x Life from the Loam
4x Inquisition of Kozilek

Instants - 12
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Go for the Throat
1x Smother
1x Doom Blade
4x Mana Leak
2x Deprive

Artifacts - 1
1x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers - 2
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Jace Beleren

Lands - 23
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Treetop Village
1x Buried Ruin
3x Halimar Depths
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island


I can't help but think that given a certain metagame, Smallpox could just be the stone-cold nuts in a setup like this. I could drop Tombstalker and Phantasmal Image along with 2 other cards (removals probably) to get 4 copies in.

Litorers
01-05-2012, 05:49 PM
The Crime//Punishment swap-out for BSZ seems like a pretty strict upgrade... I haven't come across that non-bo, but never seeing it in the future would be nice too :).

Snapcaster Mage is there as a 1-of for gifts piles that doesn't stink when I draw it. I had him as an All Suns' Dawn before, but it just was very bad when I drew it most of the time. I've decided not to play too many hay-makers, as the random dorks I play will usually just get there and don't clog up space early. Since I don't play as much counter magic, and I only have 3 fetchlands, the graveyard just doesn't seem to fill up that fast. For that reason Tombstalker just doesn't seem particularly interesting in my list.

I'd love if Mind Shatter works out, that card seems sweet.
I'm not very familiar with Smallpox based decks, but it seems like you'd want some cards to discard to it for it to be outstanding. But like I said, I haven't really played with it, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I don't know how it'll fit in the deck :)

Mr. Safety
01-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Smallpox is game-breaking when you have Life from the Loam to get your lands back. You are playing few creatures and ways to get them back (Witness & Profane Command) You'll be taking away land, cards, and creatures with one spell. You will recover faster, for sure. If you have STE on the table when you play Smallpox, you don't even lose a land...so you still ramp into your Gifts turn 4. Raven's Crime, Wurm Harvest, Life from the Loam, and lands are all safe to discard to Smallpox...you'll be seeing them again.

I wouldn't play it definately...I'm saying that in the right metagame (an aggro-heavy one) it would be completely bad-ass.

Litorers
01-05-2012, 08:08 PM
Agreed. The loam count should probably go up, but that sounds sick.
Right now we have to deal with that stupid u/r deck though :l

Mr. Safety
01-05-2012, 08:52 PM
That's where Mind Shatter and Raven's Crime come in...how do they win with no hand? I've always played a minimum of 4 targeted discard alongside those as well.

If you see a lot of Snapcaster, bring your Spell Snares. If you see a lot of Delver variants, make sure you have enough removal options. This deck is designed to punish faster decks by leveraging card advantage in the mid-late game. Early game is for disruption.

Litorers
01-06-2012, 08:23 AM
I mean the matchup isn't unbeatable by any means, but the cards we need to run to beat it mean that something like your smallpox engine, for example, couldn't be run without significantly changing the deck's playstyle.

Mr. Safety
01-06-2012, 08:41 PM
I mean the matchup isn't unbeatable by any means, but the cards we need to run to beat it mean that something like your smallpox engine, for example, couldn't be run without significantly changing the deck's playstyle.

Agree with you 100%...Smallpox changes the entire make-up, honestly. It's hard to rely on 4-mana for a Gifts setup when you're digging your own lands. I like Smallpox in a deck with 4x Tombstalker, 4x Tarmogoyf, a couple of Life from the Loam...and a crap-ton of discard/disruption/removal, similar to Eva-Green in legacy.

Litorers
01-07-2012, 10:04 PM
Agree with you 100%...Smallpox changes the entire make-up, honestly. It's hard to rely on 4-mana for a Gifts setup when you're digging your own lands. I like Smallpox in a deck with 4x Tombstalker, 4x Tarmogoyf, a couple of Life from the Loam...and a crap-ton of discard/disruption/removal, similar to Eva-Green in legacy.


I mean, at that point you could pretty much run the deathcloud deck and call it a day xD.

Mr. Safety
01-20-2012, 07:53 AM
I haven't had much playtest time with the above list, but the deck has a little bit of a rough time dealing with zoo (which is just wrong, lol.) I think the amount of 2-for-1 wipers needs to go up in the 75. Damnation, Black Sun's Zenith, Crime/Punishment, and Engineered Explosives are the only ones I can think of that would matter though...any thoughts on how to put the breaks on zoo? I already play a maindeck Kitchen Finks, should I board more of them?

I've also come to the conclusion that Birds are better than STE's in this setup. Getting three mana on turn 2 allows you to have lands up for removal/countermagic and still get a tapped shockland into play to feed the color-hungry condition of the deck. I'm back to Birds.

Litorers
01-20-2012, 09:56 AM
I've found that multiple main deck finks is good against almost every deck and helps to improve your zoo match-up considerably. You could try giving it a shot, but I don't know what you would wan to remove. I've taken a hit in my permission department mostly, but to be honest I don't know if that is correct.

I find that I like the elder better because it can chump and they cant kill it in an attempt to deny me mana. To each his own I guess. The birds do provide the mana a turn earlier though, so I do see the benefits in a more counter spell heavy build.
T1 Birds
T2 discard spell hold up 2 mana counter or CIPT land and hold up a counter.

Mr. Safety
01-20-2012, 12:29 PM
I've found that multiple main deck finks is good against almost every deck and helps to improve your zoo match-up considerably. You could try giving it a shot, but I don't know what you would wan to remove. I've taken a hit in my permission department mostly, but to be honest I don't know if that is correct.

I find that I like the elder better because it can chump and they cant kill it in an attempt to deny me mana. To each his own I guess. The birds do provide the mana a turn earlier though, so I do see the benefits in a more counter spell heavy build.
T1 Birds
T2 discard spell hold up 2 mana counter or CIPT land and hold up a counter.

Bingo, your argument for Birds over STE was exactly where I was going. The deck is heavy handed on removal and light on permission, but the permission is still key in the early turns.

I'll most likely drop my utility creature count, as in dropping to one Witness and Phantasmal Image for 2 more Finks. I could also see taking Tombstalker out and just using Finks, but I like the chance of beating with a 5/5 flyer for cheap.

EDIT: The list in the OP has changed. I just red hi-val's article on his Gifts deck, and I'm sold on 4 Coalition relics. I had some flex spots (the PW's mostly, but I worked the land up to 24 and got 4 relics in somehow) so it was an easy switch. I recommend it to anyone planning on using Gifts to set up big plays.

damionblackgear
03-23-2012, 03:18 PM
I know this thread has been pretty much abandoned but, I'd like to breathe a little bit of new life into it. Has anyone given thought to using Lotus Cobra over STE? Or, have people given up on this?

Mr. Safety
03-24-2012, 02:58 PM
I've given up on modern in general...I've been buying into a lot of legacy staples (Wasteland, Force of Will) and re-rooting myself there. I don't play on the pro tour so playing modern is rather insubstantial for me.

I haven't played this deck in over a month, closer to 2. I'm not even sure it would even be applicable given the changes in modern's metagame.

Litorers
03-24-2012, 09:29 PM
The closest thing to it is the 4-color gifts list that won a PTQ recently. It had BUG+W for Lingering Souls and the Unburial Rites+Iona or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite combo with Gifts Ungiven. It seemed pretty solid, and they wrote an article about it here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/modern/23762_Gifts_Rock_In_Modern.html

damionblackgear
03-24-2012, 10:05 PM
I figured I'd ask. I haven't played since Hoth (GP Nebraska) and played a version with Lotus Cobra and was meant as a little bit of a joke. It worked out pretty well but I misplayed myself out of one match and got mooned out two others. It was pretty nice being able to cast Gifts on turn 3 after stealing a card from their hand or keeping up a counter. It ate the U/W deck and Jund without issue.

Safety's got a good point though. I'll stay with legacy and leave modern alone unless something comes by me.

kombatkiwi
10-06-2012, 09:51 AM
I thought I'd have a go at making a modern deck just in case some tournaments come around, it's quite a fun format.

Gifts really appeals to me as a deck. As an avid commander player I love a bunch of random one ofs and I like to play the style of deck that wins by "Nickel and diming" the opponent, as Gerry Thomson often says.

Instants 22
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Cryptic Command
3 Geth's Verdict
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Mystical Teachings
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Darkblast
1 Putrefy

Sorceries 12
1 Treasured Find
2 Infest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
1 Raven's Crime
1 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Lands 26
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sunken Ruins

I tried a Grixis version as well. My favourite thing about the Grixis version was the fact that you get access to volcanic fallout as a way to make sure that their Geists die. This version plays Geth's Verdict and Infest as outs to that card, which aren't quite as good, but the BUG version has a much better manabase with the 8 on-colour fetches and a much stronger lategame with Loam and the retrace spells. Mystic Retrieval was a really awesome card in the grixis version and too and I wish BUG had access to that kind of effect.

I didn't put Snapcaster in because the 2/1 body isn't a relevant attacker and I don't think it's a relevant blocker either. YMMV I guess, lmk what you think.

I built this deck entirely off my own imagination pretty much so please let me know if I'm missing anything obvious. It's doing very well so far if only against randoms on cocktrice.

What I would really like is a way to deal with Tron, it's definitely the worst matchup.

Mr. Safety
10-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Glad to see the Creeping Tar Pits in there...I might even suggest all 4. I would play 4 manlands in some manner, maybe using Treetop Village. The best jund lists use 4x Treetop, its the shit.

Forbidden Alchemy was made for this deck...also glad to see that in here, too. I agree on not using Snapcaster Mage...but I think you need another way to win besides manlands or Worm Harvest. The deck would absolutely LOVE Jace...but alas, he's banned. My suggestion? Drop the Darkblast and Sever the Bloodline for 2x Garruk Relentless.

Good luck! I'm currently testing a 30-land valakut deck for modern...it has a lot of promise, but I might have to dig back into Bug Gifts if it becomes viable again.

kombatkiwi
10-06-2012, 02:53 PM
Glad to see the Creeping Tar Pits in there...I might even suggest all 4. I would play 4 manlands in some manner, maybe using Treetop Village. The best jund lists use 4x Treetop, its the shit.

Forbidden Alchemy was made for this deck...also glad to see that in here, too. I agree on not using Snapcaster Mage...but I think you need another way to win besides manlands or Worm Harvest. The deck would absolutely LOVE Jace...but alas, he's banned. My suggestion? Drop the Darkblast and Sever the Bloodline for 2x Garruk Relentless.

Good luck! I'm currently testing a 30-land valakut deck for modern...it has a lot of promise, but I might have to dig back into Bug Gifts if it becomes viable again.

Forbidden Alchemy seems great in theory but from my experience you never ever flash it back, because there are always better things to be doing with your mana once you get that far into the game. It's still fine as a 3 mana impulse that puts the other cards in the grave, but it's not amazing.

The reason why I wasn't playing more manlands is because I don't want any more of my manabase to come into play tapped. The more I have Tar Pits and Treetop Villages and so on the more I will end up having to fetch into untapped shocks in order to not fall behind and that will put me in a precarious position against aggressive decks. The reason why Jund plays 4 Treetop Villages is because it wants to play a high-ish number of lands in order to not get mana screwed but it wants to be able to do so without getting flooded, so it wants those lands to be able to do something later on. With this deck, if you get to that 'later on' stage, you won't ever really get flooded, because you'll be casting gifts and flashing back mystical teachings and stuff, so having a high number of manlands isn't really needed as you will eventually find one and win the game with it.

I tried using 1 Nephalia Drownyard but I usually ended up using it on myself more than my opponents. This isn't necessarily bad but it probably is a bit win-more.

If I wanted to play a nonland win condition I would probably want it to only take up one slot and therefore maybe something like Psychic Spiral or Increasing Confusion could work. I don't really like either of them that much because it can be hard to get enough mana for confusion to actually kill them and graveyard hate is good enough against this already without trying to win with spiral. Let me know if you have any other ideas.

Damnation should be cut for Black Sun because Black Sun shits on Kitchen Finks.

Darkblast overperforms all day erry day and I don't think I would ever cut it. The esper gifts decks often used Gifts almost as a Natural Order: "Oops, I resolved gifts and put 2 cards in the bin, unburial rites GG". This bug version uses gifts more as some sort of 4-Mana super-Opportunity: "Hey, I resolved gifts, watch as I accrue card advantage over several turns and slowly kill you with it." Having Darkblast to ditch with gifts is an important part of this "Gifts for value" plan and I'm happy to have it in my opener too because it deals with mana dorks and Delvers and Bobs and Snapcasters. I would consider playing more before I cut the one I have already.

Sever ranges from Solid to Crap, it is again good against Finks, it's usually fine as a 4 mana removal spell and the flashback mode is gravy in grindy games. That said, the times when it is not fine as a 4 mana removal spell are very annoying, but I can't see that Garruk would fill this role any better.

The super secret tech I have discovered is Suffer the Past. A lot of the games I lost I would be like haha, Worm Harvest for 10 worms! And they would kill me with some random burn spell. In games when this is about to happen it's usually pretty simple to set this up for about 6-8 life (because the heavy aggro decks are very light on disruption) which provides a life nice cushion and usually gives you a couple of turns to stabilize. It's an Instant, which is important because you can find it reliably with teachings and it also functions as a decent piece of graveyard hate in matchups where that's relevant. The life loss is the least important part of the card but if my opponent is playing some sort of Death's Shadow deck it might be relevant. Even if you recur it over and over with Treasured Find and Noxious Revival (which I have now included) you'll be unlikely to kill them with it on its own because they need to have 20 cards in the grave to remove. (Note - This card nonbos significantly with Bojuka Bog so I don't play bog anymore)

The only other option I found for this sort of effect (which I now believe is fairly important) was plunge into darkness sacrificing a bunch of worm tokens but this is pretty sketchy. It's not a bad card if you're using for 'ponder mode' but trying to rely on it for lifegain seems optimistic to say the least. Syphon Life maybe?

An alternative to playing stream of life (sigh) would be a gifts package that can actually kill the opponent in a reasonable amount of time.

The most realistic option I can see is some sort of reanimate package similar to what the unburial rites version runs, but I'm not overly enthusiastic about this because it's difficult to get it to work in a single gifts with no unburial rites. If you go for Vigor Mortis + Noxious Revival + Treasured Find + Dork, then they give you Treasured Find + Dork and you're stuck until you find Raven's crime to help you discard the Dork. If you instead go for Vigor Mortis + Noxious Revival + Raven's Crime + Dork then they just give you Raven's Crime and the Dork and now you can't even do anything. You can do it it one Gifts if you go Dork+Teachings and then teachings for Makeshit Mannequin but that's not very good either because you're paying 10 mana for a griselbrand that dies to lightning bolt.

The other thing that I want to work on is the mix of early removal spells which doesn't feel quite right at the moment. I didn't want to play Mana Leak because games often go long and your opponent will easily be able to pay the 3, whereas stuff like Go for the Throat stays relevant forever, but I think that some other countermagic like dissipate or something wouldn't be the worst idea. Unfortunately I don't think the other 2 mana counterspells are good enough either.

damionblackgear
10-07-2012, 04:17 AM
We've gone two very different routes with the deck. I'm still tweaking the version I brought to Nashville with a list of achievements. I've got it linked in my signature if you're interested. It's just another way to take the deck.

kombatkiwi
10-07-2012, 05:42 AM
The current version I have settled on

Instants
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Cryptic Command
2 Geth's Verdict
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Darkblast
1 Noxious Revival
1 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Negate

1 Treasured Find
2 Infest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sever the Bloodline
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
1 Raven's Crime
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Black Sun's Zenith

3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Twilight Mire

I'm much more confident in it than the version from the previous post.
I think 3 filterlands is 1 too many though. Sometimes Noxious Revival and Treasured Find are handy and sometimes they feel like a crutch and I wish they were real cards.

After I realised that I wanted Suffer the Past because I kept dying to spells I cut it for Negate which is obviously a much better card and testing showed that this was a good decision. This means I should probably re-add bojuka bog because having 1 extra land that cipt isn't a big deal and it can randomly provide a lot of value.

In a lot of matchups I still feel like I want to play W for Unburial Rites, but I'm not sure if this is something that's actually needed. It's kind of like having dedicated dread return targets in that it feels great when they stick but most of the time if you're resolving dread return / gifts you should have the game locked up anyway. I think if I did add white I would have to see if there were any other white cards worth playing and I might even use the Unburial Rites package from the sideboard only, so I'm bringing in the creature that's most effective in that matchup and not cluttering my maindeck with 2 or 3 big fatties.

EDIT
I just played the most insane game against a scapeshift player, so satisfying
I'm on 14 or 15 life
He has Boseiju and a bunch of lands
He casts Scapeshift off the Boseiju and he's like "GG"
So I'm like, "resolves, continue please"
He sacrifices all his lands except the Boseiju and searches for 1 Valakut and 6 Mountains
With the Valakut triggers on the stack I Cryptic Command one of his Mountains, so I only take 3
And then like 2 turns later I gifts in my upkeep for Noxious Revival, Treasured Find, Ghost Quarter, and Surgical Extraction and he ragequits

The really funny thing is that he kept trying to insist that the Scapeshift dealt me zero damage and sent me all these links after the game which he thought supported that argument. The even funnier thing is that I would have been just dead if he sacrificed all of his lands to the Scapeshift instead of randomly leaving the Boseiju...

This is probably evidence that Noxious and Find are too good to cut because they essentially give you the ability to search for two cards of your choice off of gifts, which is especially important for finding bullets in sideboard games.

TonyRo
10-08-2012, 09:51 AM
I have run a few versions of this deck on MODO for a while now, and I have a few questions about your list:

How do you beat a Relic or Tormod's Crypt if they just sit there and wait for you to Gifts for the normal pile of Loam / Harvest / Crime / XX? Everything's at sorcery speed, and so if you EoT the Gifts they just crack on your upkeep and your busted.

Also, why not Damnation over the BSZ, or even the second Infest? The only way it's worse than Damnation is that you really want it for 3 only, or if the shuffling in is really relevant - I can't believe that that's actually the case, but that's just me.

Also, what's the plan vs. Tron? You have a single Ghost Quarter, and one real out to Wurmcoil Engine in Sever the Bloodline, and almost none to Karn. It's not that difficult for them to outrace your Cryptics, especially on the play.

Mr. Safety
10-08-2012, 05:16 PM
We've gone two very different routes with the deck. I'm still tweaking the version I brought to Nashville with a list of achievements. I've got it linked in my signature if you're interested. It's just another way to take the deck.

That list is really sexy...I see the Primal Command in there...why no Profane Command? Getting a Profane/Witness late game is usually big-time good. You can hold off an attacker indefinately while blocking with Witness, then profane her back, ding for 3+ life, and get profane back when Witness enters the battlefield.

It just seems like you're playing a toolbox approach, and squeezing in a singleton Profane Command seems pretty easy.

Also: no Horizon Canopy love? It's a 'cycle' land that's modern legal and it seems to be good in a grind-control deck like you have going.

Lastly: Garruk Relentless seems really good with that setup. He's no Jace TMS but he can really bring a lot of incremental advantage.

EDIT: So glad to see Kitchen Finks in there...one of the best mid-range control dudes in existence.

hi-val
10-08-2012, 05:45 PM
These sorts of decks suffer if they cannot either cast huge, win-big spells like Wurmcoil/Cruel Ultimatum/kicked Rite of Replication or they can reliably start casting two spells per turn. The harsh reality is that Gifts is so slow! And I say this as an avowed big goofy Gifts deck player. You've got some brilliant Cryptic Commands but you have no acceleration, so they just languor there until turn 4, where they aren't such a huge blowout.

Opponents that start with openings like Noble Hierarch -> Kitchen Finks can really give you a bad time.

I might advise that Snapcaster Mage is good. Snapcasting an IoK is just fine, and he fulfills that "cast two spells a turn" thing above. You'll probably hate, then love, Vendilion Cliques, too. Flash-speed monsters are really good.

damionblackgear
10-08-2012, 07:24 PM
Mr. Safety - Thank You.

I use to have Profane in the list. I cut it when I was updating past the gag version I started with. It was good but it never really did more than the card said. I know, every card is limited to that, but some cards do what you want.

Example Primal Command - Does one thing you need and one thing they hate. Gain 7 life and fetch Finks vs aggro game 1. It's hard to explain the rest but I've been very happy with command.

Profane was limited in the sense that it's best uses, I was finding, were reanimate and "burn" them and Reanimate + Kill. Both options are nice, but rarely is one creature causing an issue and a randomly burning reanmation spell wasn't as useful.

I could probably find room for it but I've honestly been unimpressed with it after testing - You can go back in time to see the over versions via the dated tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet (anyone who's wondering, it's linked in my signature).

I haven't tried Canopy or Relentless. Canopy is a non-basic forest that hurts me and Relentless was just overlooked. I'll have to give Relentless a shot. the constant string of bodies may be worth it. I don't know how often I'll get a chance to actually tutor my team up or overrun.

-----

hi-val - I disagree.

I think the deck does just fine as long as it's adjusted to adapt. The archetype has a way of dealing with anything similar to how Rock functions in legacy. The issues with both are build and pilot. The mistakes from either are punished by the decks very harshly.

kombatkiwi
10-09-2012, 02:17 AM
I have run a few versions of this deck on MODO for a while now, and I have a few questions about your list:

How do you beat a Relic or Tormod's Crypt if they just sit there and wait for you to Gifts for the normal pile of Loam / Harvest / Crime / XX? Everything's at sorcery speed, and so if you EoT the Gifts they just crack on your upkeep and your busted.

Also, why not Damnation over the BSZ, or even the second Infest? The only way it's worse than Damnation is that you really want it for 3 only, or if the shuffling in is really relevant - I can't believe that that's actually the case, but that's just me.

Also, what's the plan vs. Tron? You have a single Ghost Quarter, and one real out to Wurmcoil Engine in Sever the Bloodline, and almost none to Karn. It's not that difficult for them to outrace your Cryptics, especially on the play.

The deck is not so graveyard-centric that there is any reason to worry about your opponent having something like a crypt out. There is never a situation where you *have* to gifts for a such a graveyard reliant pile. If your opponent does have something like a relic in play you can just gifts for 4 decent random spells and get ahead anyway: you can win without the graveyard with tar pits and the opponent is effectively already down a card by virtue of them playing a do-nothing hate spell. If you really have to get rid of it you can play draw-go until you find an abrubt decay or pulse.

As stated in a previous post, the reason for BSZ over other mass removal is that it stops kitchen finks from persisting.

The tron matchup is admittedly really bad and I devote a lot of sideboard space for it, if you have a way to improve this game 1 without sacrificing the other strengths of the deck then please let me know.

@Hi val worm harvest is as big as you need to go. I understand your philosophy about casting two spells a turn but in this deck snapcaster isnt really anything more than an instant speed regrowth so I didnt feel like it was a good idea to include it.

A play like hierarch finks is slightly worrying but the deck does have quite a lot of early removal to allow you to safely reach the point where gifts and cryptic take over the game.

@ TonyRo Maybe you can share one of your modo lists for comparison

Phoenix Ignition
10-09-2012, 07:03 AM
I have a few questions about the deck (and DBG's list in general).

1. I'm surprised that the reanimate package isn't being used in a deck like this, as all you'd have to do is fit in white (and 2 cards). Is the value you get out of Gifts right now really worth tapping out for 2 turns in a row, starting on turn 3-4? I don't see too much value right now, especially that late in the game. Remand and Mana Leak being so played right now, I am always wary of playing 4 drops that don't give you a huge advantage.

2. How is deathrite shaman? Is the land food enough to keep him going strong? I love the anti-snapcaster and even storm tech, but not hitting 3 mana on turn 2 consistently makes me shy away from using him as a 3-of. Maybe 2 or 1 instead? I just think with 8 fetches that you play, 33.9% of the time he won't be useful on turn 2 (assuming no help from the opponent). That's a pretty large amount of the time, especially if you're accelerating into your turn 3 (at which point you're still going to be missing food for him ~28.7% of the time).

3. I don't like EE. I've been playing my own brand of control in Modern and eventually dropped EEs from 2 to 1 to 0, even though I run Bobs. Not really a question, but it's a highly inefficient way to get rid of Geist, and man lands are a serious problem in Modern. Also, enough decks are playing things like Restoration Angel that you'll have a hard time actually doing damage with EE. I'd probably just go for some more targeted removal like Dismember, so that your Lilianas can do their job of killing off Geist or anything bigger, or even Black Sun's Zenith, for Finks and Geists and whatever else.

damionblackgear
10-09-2012, 09:31 AM
I have a few questions about the deck (and DBG's list in general).

1. I'm surprised that the reanimate package isn't being used in a deck like this, as all you'd have to do is fit in white (and 2 cards). Is the value you get out of Gifts right now really worth tapping out for 2 turns in a row, starting on turn 3-4? I don't see too much value right now, especially that late in the game. Remand and Mana Leak being so played right now, I am always wary of playing 4 drops that don't give you a huge advantage.

When I put this together (I found out about this forum after I put this together), there wasn't really a thought of any type of reanimation package in my 75 (only Profane Command). Gifts was for value in cards, not a one shot win-con. Kind of a solution that creates problems. I didn't even really think that it was an option after I played it once.

To be honest, I wouldn't know where to begin for that. I could try picking a silver bullet creature but I feel I have one right now (Lich) that pretty much accomplishes what I need it to. It's black (so it dodges most black removal) it's got a 4 toughness (So it dodges most red removal) and that pretty much just leaves path which only shroud and hexproof dodge. I've found that I can typically play it and abuse the the creatures in my graveyard if not theirs (Finks and Shreikmaw being prime candidates).

As far as Gifts being a 4cc spell, it's also an instant. I may be tapping out one turn, but that's the end of their turn most likely. I don't have to play it as a sorcery - was actually pretty common with the cobra version because the fetch provided protection via pierce/discard as well. My biggest fear is that I won't have the "assistance" I had before with cobra. Not that it could get countered. It's more a draw spell (granted your draws are typically guaranteed to be things you wanted) than anything.

I am also wondering if I should go back to 3 of them.


2. How is deathrite shaman? Is the land food enough to keep him going strong? I love the anti-snapcaster and even storm tech, but not hitting 3 mana on turn 2 consistently makes me shy away from using him as a 3-of. Maybe 2 or 1 instead? I just think with 8 fetches that you play, 33.9% of the time he won't be useful on turn 2 (assuming no help from the opponent). That's a pretty large amount of the time, especially if you're accelerating into your turn 3 (at which point you're still going to be missing food for him ~28.7% of the time).

Shaman's been better in testing than I first thought. I did raise my fetch count to 8 from 7 when I added it (to help with said consistency issue) and I'm still afraid of it. I started at 4 knowing that some number would be cut. It's at 3 after a day or two of testing and I'm surprised it's still that high to be honest. I think it's because of the mid-late game relevance (Gaining life or "burning" the opponent).

You do have to make a decent sized jump in CC's on a pretty regular basis. That's why I went down (cc) to Birds from Cobra (and I'm honestly thinking of going to 5 of them instead of 4, mana dorks).


3. I don't like EE. I've been playing my own brand of control in Modern and eventually dropped EEs from 2 to 1 to 0, even though I run Bobs. Not really a question, but it's a highly inefficient way to get rid of Geist, and man lands are a serious problem in Modern. Also, enough decks are playing things like Restoration Angel that you'll have a hard time actually doing damage with EE. I'd probably just go for some more targeted removal like Dismember, so that your Lilianas can do their job of killing off Geist or anything bigger, or even Black Sun's Zenith, for Finks and Geists and whatever else.

I figured I needed a sweeper (mainly for 1cc spells) and EE pretty much covered that. I'm trying not to rely on zenith due to it's already high mana-cost and damnation is everything which may mean I'm getting the wrong side of that deal (value wise, rarely will I have tons of creatures on the field).

So, that left EE. Granted, the original list was made before restoration angel and also had Glissa, so EE was a house. It may be time to try other things, what would you recommend?

Phoenix Ignition
10-09-2012, 10:02 AM
Re: Reanimator plan:
I'm not the biggest fan of it maindeck, but it might be worth considering sideboard against some certain things. Affinity basically can't beat an Elesh Norn, storm decks can't beat an Iona on blue, and a lot of decks in between lose to those. I'd consider it just because for a few sideboard slots you can really improve your matchup vs. a few decks. Also, Modern doesn't have much to punish your manabase, and throwing in 1 land that makes white along with all of your mana dorks and fetchlands is probably enough to successfully run it.

SB:
+1 Unburial Rites
+1 Iona
+1 Elesh Norn
+1 Thirst for Knowledge

Removal:
I'm running Junk colors but basically the same style of control deck, as you've mentioned its similarities already, you'll understand. My removal is 3x Path to Exile, 3x Abrupt Decay, 3x Liliana, and 1x Nameless Inversion (you can probably guess why). I've found that sweepers are worth less than targeted removal, especially instant removal that can take out manlands or blinking Angels or whatever other shenanigans happen. Geist is one of the most painful things to happen to control, but as long as you have enough targeted removal to kill the other garbage then Liliana can do her thing (or you might be able to trade with a block).

So basically my removal suggestion for you would be something like:
-2 EE
+2 Dismember
or if you like the ability to take out random non-creatures, +1 Dismember +1 Abrupt Decay.

You may take damage, but killing it turn 1 is almost always worth it. Against things like Steppe Lynx it's a wash.

Mr. Safety
10-11-2012, 05:38 PM
Mr. Safety - Thank You.

I use to have Profane in the list. I cut it when I was updating past the gag version I started with. It was good but it never really did more than the card said. I know, every card is limited to that, but some cards do what you want.

Example Primal Command - Does one thing you need and one thing they hate. Gain 7 life and fetch Finks vs aggro game 1. It's hard to explain the rest but I've been very happy with command.

Profane was limited in the sense that it's best uses, I was finding, were reanimate and "burn" them and Reanimate + Kill. Both options are nice, but rarely is one creature causing an issue and a randomly burning reanmation spell wasn't as useful.

I could probably find room for it but I've honestly been unimpressed with it after testing - You can go back in time to see the over versions via the dated tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet (anyone who's wondering, it's linked in my signature).

I haven't tried Canopy or Relentless. Canopy is a non-basic forest that hurts me and Relentless was just overlooked. I'll have to give Relentless a shot. the constant string of bodies may be worth it. I don't know how often I'll get a chance to actually tutor my team up or overrun.

Your explanation of Primal Command is really solid...and I understand what you're saying about profane. It may be my bull-headed approach to Profane was holding me back when I was piloting BUG Gifts a while back.

Canopy was really a way to further abuse Loam...if you're facing a grinding match, fetching Loam, Raven's Crime, Horizon Canopy, and Eternal Witness is really good. That's a Gifts pile that is all gravy, no downside.

I also really liked the Shriekmaw addition...solid tech there with the 2-shot of Eternal Witness (you play 2 right?). I think that Unburial Rites is good enough to splash a singleton even if all you do is get Witness, Shriekmaw, etc for additional value. It's a no-drawback Makeshift Mannequin. I like it. Of course getting an Iona in there would be ok, too.

Garruk Relentless brings a different element to your game. It provides a way to get rid of little dorks while also clogging the board, either with 2/2's or 1/1 deathtouches. Playtest it, I think you'll like it.

damionblackgear
10-12-2012, 08:58 AM
Sorry guys,

I haven't been able to test for the past couple of days so I haven't been able to make any updates. I'll let you know what happens after I'm done judging States.

damionblackgear
10-14-2012, 04:33 PM
Sorry forthe double post. kombatkiwi - What's going on with your list. This was supposed to be about you.

-edit-
I'm not triple posting but, I did get some video testing done with the one version I was testing. Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUlBFaNixBk&list=PLa3V79B3HP2SgfTenQ8rbN5WzZmoYcf_C&feature=plpp_play_all).

Catitas
10-26-2012, 10:36 AM
I'm playing this version of the deck

//Manabase
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge

// Card Advantage
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Life from the Loam

// Win Conditions
1 Batterskull
1 Worm Harvest

// Permission
4 Mana Leak
4 Spell Snare
1 Raven's Crime

// Toolbox
3 Liliana of the Veil

// Spot Removal
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Smother
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Darkblast

// Mass Removal
1 Consume the Meek
1 Damnation
1 Infest
2 Engineered Explosives

// Recursion
3 Snapcaster Mage

leander?
11-20-2012, 08:35 AM
So, as some of you might've read or heard already, a little over a week ago Shane McDermott top-8ed at Grand Prix Chicago with this deck. I think the list is quite interesting. The full playset of Shamans make the deck a lot faster and the splashed Lingering Souls can buy you a tremendous amount of time in the midgame. Both of wich are incredibly important when trying to set up your lategame plan.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1 Darkblast
1 Raven's Crime
2 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Damnation
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Crime // Punishment

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Terastodon
1 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Thoughts?

kombatkiwi
11-21-2012, 04:22 AM
So, as some of you might've read or heard already, a little over a week ago Shane McDermott top-8ed at Grand Prix Chicago with this deck. I think the list is quite interesting. The full playset of Shamans make the deck a lot faster and the splashed Lingering Souls can buy you a tremendous amount of time in the midgame. Both of wich are incredibly important when trying to set up your lategame plan.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

1 Darkblast
1 Raven's Crime
2 Path to Exile
1 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
1 Damnation
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
1 Crime // Punishment

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dispel
1 Duress
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Terastodon
1 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Thoughts?

I've tested this a little bit. I am glad that he has managed to successfully make this work with 4 colours. BUG gives you the best shell for the deck but the Esper version gives you Lingering Souls and Unburial Rites which give you two very useful angles of attack against different archetypes. Deathrite Shaman proves to be excellent. In previous lists I wasn't running any creatures and it does become easy to see the benefits of this as the Shaman is a huge removal magnet. However, when he sticks he's excellent, all 3 of his abilities are incredibly useful for this deck, accelerating you into the unburial rites finish against combo, gaining life to stall out against aggro, and providing a win condition in any game that goes long.

I'm not convinced that his selection of 1-ofs are correct and I would seriously question the validity of that sideboard, but if you want to play gifts in modern I would definitely recommend his list as the best place to start.

Koby
11-21-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm really digging Deathrite Shaman lists for Modern. This deck looks hella fun. I'm trying out Yohan's list from GP Lyon.

Any tips on the removal package?

Shaka1333
11-22-2012, 12:54 PM
Hey, i'm glad you're trying my list Koby :)
How has it been going for you ?

Koby
11-22-2012, 01:07 PM
Hey, i'm glad you're trying my list Koby :)
How has it been going for you ?

Kind of hard to test the deck when no one plays Modern locally :/

warfordium
11-22-2012, 06:17 PM
Kind of hard to test the deck when no one plays Modern locally :/

I'm starting to get into modern, and would be willing to fire up some cockatrice gauntlet testing (Mac user over here)—both for this deck and for another i'm brewing. PM me.

Koby
11-26-2012, 12:56 PM
I ran a small variation on the 4C Gifts deck at a GPT for Denver at the Monstore on Saturday. It was only $5 so I felt compelled to play the format and try out the most difficult deck in the format.

Here's what I played:
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectontic Edge
1 Academy Ruins

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lingering Souls
4 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Leak

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Unburial Rites
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast

SB:
1 Damping Matrix
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcement
1 Duress
1 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Stony Silence
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 ??? -- can't remember off the top of my head.

Pretty much expecting a huge turnout of Lingering Souls, and wanting t avoid being disrupted by Deathrite Shaman lead me to play EE/recursion as a primary control method.

Round 1 - Ian H. - Aggro elves (0-2)
Before we start, Ian's dad (also playing, as well as Ian's brother) tell his son to play as best he can, he's "playing against someone they write about on the internet" (??? sick dagger). I should mention Ian is 7 years old.

Game 1 - I keep up tempo with the Elf Lord plan while trying to setup for some recursion. However, I flood out, and lose holding 2 lands in hand, with another 7 in play.
Game 2 - Mull a no-land 7, mull a 1-land (colorless) six, and keep a 3 land fiver with Liliana. I get beat down by 5/5 elves on turn 4.

I probably made this kid's day, even when he didn't win another match the rest of the day.

Round 2 - Geeeeefffff (Jeff) - Spirit Jund (2-1?)
I'm a little hazy on the details, but I remember setting up an EE lock against all his threats, then finishing up with Colonnade in one game. In another game I color-screwed him with Tec-edge and prevented him from playing BBE to recover. Pretty much manuvering to stay alive while going over the top with Gifts.

Round 3 - Devan - Snow White (1-2)
Game 1 - He gains infinite life, which doesn't really concern me, but the beatdown plan is solid enough. Serra Ascendant on 30+ life is a struggle with dead draws.
Game 2 - He is shy on mana, and I'm able to land Iona on white, which prompts a concession.
Game 3 - This time, I'm shy on mana. He reveals his hand to Matryr and I note that his beatdown plan is Serras along with Proclamation of Rebirth to back it up. I tempo his attack with some removal trying to setup EE recursion, but I'm one mana or 12 life short to stall the board.

Round 4 - Jason - 4c Reanimator (2-1)
Game 1 - I have Deathrite Shaman active, and he plays Lotleth Troll. I think he's on Vengevine plan, so when I crack a fetch to get a Hallowed fountain tapped EOT and I'm tapped out, he discards Emrakul and reanimates it with Makeshift Mannaquin. I have nothing that can target creatures that isn't a colored spell, so it's game.
Game 2 - A little bit of LD and a little bit of spirit beatdown. Nihil Spellbomb makes a good counter to reanimation.
Game 3 - He gets to play a Gisela, and I'm able to chump with Spirit tokens for 4 turns until I find a Liliana off the top to kill it. Then I start to clock with a second Lingering Souls and hardcast Elesh Norn for value.

Round 5 - Max - Spirit Jund (2-0)
Game 1 - Durdle around for a while and cast Gift for Iona/Unburial with an empty board. He is amazed such a thing exists in Modern!
Game 2 - Ditto with Elesh Norn to make spirit beatdown lethal (he's at 11).

3-2 in a 5 round event that has 13 people is something like 6th place, which isn't enough for Top 4. My buddy Gabe gets in with Spirit Jund and gets the byes for Denver.

The deck seems powerful, but has serious mana issues, both with the amount required to play, and the color balance. Yohan's manabase is better than the one from McDermott's; but the Tec-edge and Ghost Quarter are both nice to have in the main.

Dimh
12-06-2012, 05:48 PM
I'm currently running the GP Top 8 list in our Modern group. The RG Tron matchup is an absolute nightmare. The pre-sideboard match is miserable, as you are fighting through early Karn and maindeck Relic. Post sideboard is a little better as we have Stony Silence, Extraction, Terrastodon, and an additional Ghost Quarter. I'm not sure how popular the RG Tron list will be, but it's the only match I'm really uncomfortable with.

Koby
12-06-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm currently running the GP Top 8 list in our Modern group. The RG Tron matchup is an absolute nightmare. The pre-sideboard match is miserable, as you are fighting through early Karn and maindeck Relic. Post sideboard is a little better as we have Stony Silence, Extraction, Terrastodon, and an additional Ghost Quarter. I'm not sure how popular the RG Tron list will be, but it's the only match I'm really uncomfortable with.

Beast Within helps against their Tron or their Karn. I would suggest running it to supplement the LD package. 2x should help (or maybe 1 main 1 side)

Dimh
12-06-2012, 07:12 PM
Beast Within helps against their Tron or their Karn. I would suggest running it to supplement the LD package. 2x should help (or maybe 1 main 1 side)

Hmm. Maybe swapping one of the Abrupt Decays for it.

Mojeh
12-07-2012, 01:23 AM
What about Vendilion Clique?
It's good against RG Tron, and combos as well. Do we have 2-3 slots in the sb?

ZO!DBERG
01-15-2013, 02:36 PM
I have been tuning the deck some with the current changes i have been running a 2/2/2 split of path, abrupt decay and disfigure as removal options; killing opponents turn one deathrites is such an important out to getting things going. As well as opting for maindecked thoughtsiezes instead of mana leaks. i am starting the ptq season this weekend and will post results after.

Mojeh
01-15-2013, 04:57 PM
I have been tuning the deck some with the current changes i have been running a 2/2/2 split of path, abrupt decay and disfigure as removal options; killing opponents turn one deathrites is such an important out to getting things going. As well as opting for maindecked thoughtsiezes instead of mana leaks. i am starting the ptq season this weekend and will post results after.

I really like having some counters, the turn 1 Thoughtseize may hurt a little bit too. Let us know about your progress, please =)

ZO!DBERG
01-24-2013, 03:00 PM
Tournament report: PTQ LINCOLN NEb
R1: U/W tron. opponent admits he hasn't played since GP Lincoln, he has no idea what I'm up too win easily.
R2: Storm. Ravens crime makes him fizzle G1. G2 Iona does her thing.
R3: Living end. G1 liliana on t2. ultimate on turn 5 win. G2 gifts into Iona and elesh norn in response to a t4 cascade by opponent.
R4: Shane Mcdermott GP Chicago top8 with same deck: G1 i keep a strong hand against him he's going in blind, lingering souls and some well timed removal get the job done. G2 we both have deathrites its awkward i stumble on mana he wins. G3 creeping tar pit and celestial colannade do combine 15 points in a long drawn out game with multiple gifts resolved. these mirrors are rough but the deck is fringe enough that they never come up.
R5: Affinity. G1 affinity wins normal G1 way. G2 hard cast elesh norn, to seal it up. G3 end up missing a land drop on turn 4 causes the loss of match as i draw the rites for the gifts in my hand i cannot both bin elesh and rites to win the match.
R6: Doran roc. Game one turn to liliana and souls do thier work along with a damnation. G2 I keep deathrite 2 lands fail to draw a third lose. G3 opponent keeps noble, confidant x3 ... I have darkblast it goes my way.
R7: win and in vs. TRON :(. win game one thanks to his poor shuffling lets me see what hes on. i mull to loam ghost quarter proceed to kill 12 lands game one, game 2 he t3 a karn i lose, game 4 he lands early relic and game goes long to little interaction between the two of us im not fast enough to beat his deck and he has enough pyroclasms to be annoying, overall matchup i believe is close to unwinable. Take any victories against tron as good.

Finished 16th on breakers, tournament had close to cutoff to make it 8 rounds, awkward draw ins and such. overall very happy with the deck me and shane mcdermott made the same changes to the main, without communication. so good to know i have a good grasp on meta and such, if you would like a list i can post one soon I am at work now so i just gave the brief details.

Koby
01-24-2013, 03:32 PM
Can you share the list you used? I want to pick this deck back up and interested to see the overall changes you made.

~Cheers

ZO!DBERG
01-24-2013, 11:24 PM
Lands: 24
3x verdant catacomb
3x marsh flats
2x misty rainforest
2x creeping tar pit
1x celestial colannade
1x tech edge
1x ghost quarter
1x academy ruins
1x hallowed fountain
1x temple gardens
1x overgrown tomb
1x watery grave
1x breeding pool
1x godless shrine
1x forest
1x swamp
1x island
1x plains

Spells: 36
4x lingering souls
4x deathrite shaman
4x gift's ungiven
3x mana leak
3x liliana, of the veil
2x abrupt decay
2x snapcaster mage
2x path to exile
1x raven's crime
1x life from the loam
1x batterskull
1x unburial rites
1x Iona shield of Emeria
1x Elesh norn grand cenobite
1x maelstrom pulse
1x disfigure
1x darkblast
1x damnation
1x wrath of god
1x engineered explosives

The sideboard can be tuned more to the metagame, i suggest a few stony silences, vendillion cliques and maybe more discard to fight the tron matchup and a creeping corrosion v. affinity. Most matchups i find are fairly even or favored position with the main.

Sideboard I'd run today
2x vendillion clique
2x stony silence
2x thoughtsieze
1x creeping corrosion
1x surgical extraction
1x extrripate
1x kitchen finks
1x infest
1x baneslayer
1x Disenchant
1x Dismember
1x torpor orb

Good luck and im open to discussing any of the decisions/cards.

Koby
01-28-2013, 12:28 PM
Now that BBE and Seething Song are both MIA, this only means good news for BUG/w Gifts decks. BBE was always the hardest answer to deal with (2 threats), and Song means a slower and weaker Storm deck.

The main question will be - will DRS continue to see a lots of play?
How would we adapt to the Infect deck now being a premier strategy?
How would we adapt to Tron being played in the power vacuum?

JDK
01-28-2013, 04:38 PM
Storm won't be played anymore. Maybe we will see some of those Ascension + Noxious Revival Decks, but I'm not sure about their strength with so much GY-hate in the format (Rakdos Charm and Tron is maindecking Relics).

DRS and Jund will still see lots of play, as they have several creatures to take the place of BBE: Huntmaster, Kitchen Finks, Geralf's Messenger etc.

I guess Tron will see even more play now, but despite that Gifts Control may have good chances.

Phoenix Ignition
01-28-2013, 05:09 PM
The main question will be - will DRS continue to see a lots of play?
Yes, it doesn't lose much without BBE. Removing 1 spell from UR storm/turn usually only beat bad hands, so I don't think that banning changes much. You still get to ramp while having a clock with reach. Shutting down Snapcaster shenanigans is still going to be relevant.


How would we adapt to the Infect deck now being a premier strategy?
Current versions of the list look fine. Maybe your win condition is a bit slow, but that deck can't handle multiple Lingering Souls + instant speed removal, which it looks like you have enough of. Worst comes to worst play Some Melira in the sideboard since this deck doesn't really need that many sideboard slots anyway.


How would we adapt to Tron being played in the power vacuum?
You basically can't. Bribery + Telemin Performance Sideboard? Spreading Seas is good against them and you might be able to swing it in some SB slots. Stony Silence is pretty amazing against them as well. Control just doesn't do well against that deck though, which is the point.

Lord Seth
01-28-2013, 06:22 PM
You basically can't. Bribery + Telemin Performance Sideboard? Spreading Seas is good against them and you might be able to swing it in some SB slots. Stony Silence is pretty amazing against them as well. Control just doesn't do well against that deck though, which is the point.As a Tron player, I'll say that Bribery is overrated against Tron. It's pretty useless in other matchups, and they can easily take out the Emrakul (or whatever you picked) with Karn or Oblivion Stone. And it costs 5 mana, giving them plenty of time to get set up and answer it with the aforementioned cards, or even just using Eye of Ugin to fetch their best card to thwart you.

Spreading Seas and Stony Silence are better (not to mention more relevant in other matchups). I think Stony Silence is the better of the two against Tron, though, because they can't Oblivion Stone to get rid of it.

Though you really shouldn't underestimate the power of a simple Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge to thwart the deck.

Phoenix Ignition
01-28-2013, 06:36 PM
As a Tron player, I'll say that Bribery is overrated against Tron. It's pretty useless in other matchups, and they can easily take out the Emrakul (or whatever you picked) with Karn or Oblivion Stone. And it costs 5 mana, giving them plenty of time to get set up and answer it with the aforementioned cards, or even just using Eye of Ugin to fetch their best card to thwart you.

Spreading Seas and Stony Silence are better (not to mention more relevant in other matchups). I think Stony Silence is the better of the two against Tron, though, because they can't Oblivion Stone to get rid of it.

Though you really shouldn't underestimate the power of a simple Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge to thwart the deck.

I agree, but they usually only have 1 turn to draw into those. I guess they could be holding onto the O stone, but Karn is generally a "Throw him out there ASAP" card so they probably aren't sandbagging it. Telemin is bad in general now too, since it didn't even kill UR storm when that was a deck due to Goblin electromancer.

Stony Silence and Meddling Mage are the stars of that matchup when I play my control deck. Stony Silence turns 1/2 of their cantrips into dead cards.

damionblackgear
01-29-2013, 07:41 PM
Still tinkering with the non-white list. I Can't seem to find a good card draw (not filter: Ponder, Slight of hand, etc) spell for the deck. Anyone have any idea(s) on a good card draw spell (net gain +1 card). Night's Whisper is the only one I can think of as being 'efficient' but I'd rather have something that's an instant.

Phoenix Ignition
01-29-2013, 07:59 PM
Thirst for Knowledge is probably the best draw a card instant. You'd need artifacts to make it net you cards though, or at least want to use the reanimate plan. Not a lot of instant card draw in Modern (Cryptic Command sort of?).

Davran
01-30-2013, 09:55 AM
Thirst for Knowledge is probably the best draw a card instant. You'd need artifacts to make it net you cards though, or at least want to use the reanimate plan. Not a lot of instant card draw in Modern (Cryptic Command sort of?).

There are a couple cards that are close...Think Twice (with flashback), Careful Consideration, Inspiration, Catalog (Thirst without the Artifact clause sort of), Vision Skeins (symetrical though)...

Most of those are pretty bad.

damionblackgear
02-12-2013, 07:53 PM
Gave the most current versions a run in the noon daily (ended 3-1, hit the bye round 2:frown:). I ended up recording it and was hoping for build advice. Here is the playlist if you're interested (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG11luBe1kQ&list=PLa3V79B3HP2Q6qWDlzcd6bUKFpzzJ9Vrm).

This is the list for reference.

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Havengul Lich

1 Inquisition of Kozelek
1 Raven's Crime
1 Thoughtseize
3 Night's Whisper
1 Life of the Loam
1 Damnation

2 Disfigure
1 Noxious Revival
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Gifts Ungiven

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace Beleron

3 Mysty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tarpit
1 Twilight Mire
1 Flooded Grove
1 Acedemy Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarters
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormad's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
3 Spellskite
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Obstinate Baloth

Mojeh
02-17-2013, 11:00 PM
Hey guys!
I played a small local event (18 players), and ended 5-0 with the following 75:


2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Mana Leak
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lingering Souls
1 Unburial Rites
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Vault of the Archangel

SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Beast Within

I faced UWR Midrange (2-0), Monoblack Vampires (2-1), BR Burn (2-1), Jund (2-0) and Splinter Twin (2-1).
Most of the games were quite difficult, and that proves this deck has no good matchup, and the only really bad one is Tron. That's why I dedicated several SB slots to Tron, although most of the cards are useful in other match ups too. That Duress should be a Thoughtseize, which I couldn't borrow.
The list looks solid after all, but maybe I'd add a third Stony Silence, since it's too good against Tron, and still useful against Affinity, Pod, and other artifact-based decks.

In the maindeck, I chose to play Disfigure over Dismember in the last minute, and liked the result. Disfigure is great at killing problematic creatures without making you lose life, and you can buy some time with Lingering Souls if your opponent has a big guy.

After the tournament I played against RG Tron, and saw how hard is the matchup. The only thing that can actually win G1 is an early Liliana or a Gifts while they don't have an active Relic of Progenitus. After sideboarding things improve, comes in: 2 Aven Mindsensor, 1 Terastodon, 1 Beast Within, 1 Ghost Quarter, 1 Duress (Thoughtseize), 2 Stony Silence and the Surgical Extraction. The match is still difficult, but we no longer have around 10 dead cards, so it gets a lot better.
Beast Within was a little disappointing, sometimes they just ramp to 6 lands and slam a Wurmcoil Engine while you sit on your spell. I wonder if this could be the 3rd Stony Silence Slot.

Thoughts?

Frank the magic dog
03-11-2013, 06:37 PM
I have found that 26 lands are just to much... I get flooded very often when Im dying to find some action. I also believe that without main deck discard (inquisition and thoughtseize) game 1 vs Tron is a lost cause.

How did the mana Leaks performed for you ? they tend to be awful topdecks and get useless very quick.

On the sideboard; Have you though about a transformational SB plan? I was thinking in cutting the complete gifts package to ad midrange treats like restoration angel, geist of saint traft... this obviously needs a lot of thought since the mana base is a source of concern, but I believe that this will give the deck an edge after SB since we dont have to waste cards fighting the hate.

what do you think ?

Mojeh
03-13-2013, 01:25 AM
I get flooded sometimes, but I also get mana screwed sometimes, when I don't have a Shaman to fix my colors, so I guess 26 lands is ok.
Also, it's 26 lands, but we have 4 utility lands and 3 man lands (I replaced a swamp by an Academy Ruins).

I actually thought of a transformational SB, but I don't think we'll encounter much graveyard hate by now, so I guess I'm sticking with the traditional build for a while.

About the Mana Leak's, well I don't consider it the worst top deck ever, although it obviously loses it's strength as the turns goes by. I like them because counters are always better to prevent your opponent of winning with a top deck, and having a little permission makes your opponents play around them, which is actually good.
There's another thing about the discard package. The 2 life from Thoughtseize is really painful along with this mana base, and Inquisition can't grab some problematic cards, like Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, Kiki-jiki, Scapeshift, and so on.

Frank the magic dog
03-13-2013, 12:55 PM
True about the life loss of the thoughtseize... although I haven't lost a game where that life would have been relevant.

I'm currently testing Sorin and Elspeth as a source of virtual card advantage, this idea came after watching the "white jund" list that runs 7 planeswalkers. So far Sorin has been great when it comes down early and Elspeth is a real win condition with some lingering souls tokens around.

A batterskull have been proving it's worth also, and it gives you a whole new gifts package to work along with the academy ruins, the explosives and the loam.

This is the list I'm running now:

Land (25)

1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Academy ruins
1 Vault of the Archangel

Creatures (8)

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Snapcaster Mage


Planeswalkers (5)

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Espeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Spells (23)

4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
4 Lingering Souls
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull

I'm testing 61 cards and having trouble deciding what to cut... Feedback would be appreciated.

Mojeh
03-13-2013, 04:19 PM
True about the life loss of the thoughtseize... although I haven't lost a game where that life would have been relevant.

I'm currently testing Sorin and Elspeth as a source of virtual card advantage, this idea came after watching the "white jund" list that runs 7 planeswalkers. So far Sorin has been great when it comes down early and Elspeth is a real win condition with some lingering souls tokens around.

A batterskull have been proving it's worth also, and it gives you a whole new gifts package to work along with the academy ruins, the explosives and the loam.

This is the list I'm running now:

Land (25)

1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Academy ruins
1 Vault of the Archangel

Creatures (8)

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Snapcaster Mage


Planeswalkers (5)

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Espeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Spells (23)

4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Unburial Rites
4 Lingering Souls
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull

I'm testing 61 cards and having trouble deciding what to cut... Feedback would be appreciated.


I believe playing Planeswalkers (other than Liliana) depends on your game plan. For example, my game plan is to slow my opponent with counters and removals, and then resolve a Gifts for the win. In that strategy, I would prefer more resources (counters and spot removals) than a source of card advantage/win con (planeswalkers). I really wanted to play an Elspeth, but I just can't find a slot.

About the mana base, I prefer a 26 lands-build so we can afford playing at least 3 Creeping Tar Pit, that card wins me a lot of games. Also, I would recommend you cutting the second Godless Shrine for a fetch land, they are better at fixing our colors, can fetch basics in order to take less damage, and also works better with Shaman and Loam.

I don't know what to cut in your list, because your approach is more proactive, and I don't really know how this deck behaves at this level.

Arsenal
07-03-2013, 11:30 AM
I played against this deck for the first time last Friday and it was quite interesting to see in action. I was impressed at how good it's control matchup was (I was on UWR Midrange) with it's Gifts -> LftL -> Raven's Crime package. And then sometimes it could just in response Gifts and blow people out of the water. I'm curious as to why this doesn't see more play. Also, I've seen some lists running 2x SCM, other running 2x Kitchen Finks in that slot. Thoughts?

Koby
07-03-2013, 11:44 AM
It's a hard deck to play because every Gifts includes x^4 decisions. This means you have to evaluate how you plan on playing the game from effectively every turn you could cast it, and then decide how best to fight through DRS shenanigans while still staying alive.

It's a good deck and really rewards good play skill.

Arsenal
07-03-2013, 01:31 PM
I liked it's versatility. It has a reasonable plan versus both aggro and control and can fight through DRS pretty well due to lots of spot removal + Snapcaster. I think I'll sleeve it up soon as UWR Midrange, although very good, is becoming slightly boring to me as it literally is just resolve Geist + remove everything in the way that would block Geist.

Mr. Safety
09-15-2013, 05:12 PM
I'm back onto this deck after rediscovering my love for Gifts Ungiven. This is my starting point for now,:

Next Level Gifts


4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Griselbrand

4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
3x Disfigure
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Unburial Rites
2x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Crime // Punishment
1x Raven's Crime
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Lingering Souls

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforst
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Treetop Village
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Academy Ruins
1x Hinterland Harbor
1x Woodland Cemetery
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard (rough!)

3x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
2x Disenchant
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Lingering Souls
1x Gaze of Granite
1x Oblivion Ring


It's a powerful deck, and I think Disfigure is generally a good card that doesn't get enough play. I debated Path to Exile long and hard, but I don't think I want to use it. Tectonic Edge + Loam is sometimes really good, but Path goes against that in a weird way.

YamiJoey
09-15-2013, 06:45 PM
Path + Tech Edge is good when you're playing LftL.

Cut some of your weaker cards for additional copies of your stronger ones, like Liliana. Also Path is how you don't lose to half the decks in the format. Play 3 at the very least. Goyf is mostly lame when you're playing the counter-based version. I'd rather play Clique.

Mr. Safety
09-15-2013, 07:51 PM
So, maybe this?

-3 Disfigure
+3 Path to Exile

I think that Spell Snare could be another weak point in the deck, that could be dropped for up to 3 copies of Liliana (I don't own 4.) Beyond that, I think the deck is really powerful.

The popular decks in my local metagame are WUR Control, B/G Mid-range (redless Jund), Merfolk, Pod (really popular, a good reason to play Path), and Bob-based 'good stuff' decks like Jund.

Mr. Safety
09-28-2013, 07:13 PM
Next Level Gifts (updated list):


Creatures - 10
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Griselbrand

Sorceries - 6
1x Raven's Crime
1x Life from the Loam
1x Unburial Rites
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Profane Command
1x Crime // Punishment

Artifacts - 1
1x Engineereed Explosives

Instants - 15
4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Mana Leak
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Path to Exile
1x Go for the Throat
2x Thirst for Knowledge

Planeswalkers - 3
3x Liliana of the Veil

Lands - 25
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforst
1x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Treetop Village
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Academy Ruins
2x Woodland Cemetery
2x Swamp
2x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard:

3x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
1x Far // Away
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Trygon Predator
2x Thoughtseize
3x Annul


I've noticed that there are almost zero Gifts setups using Griselbrand. Why is that? I've found so far that he provides inevitability much better than any other fatty you could grab ATM. The body is impressive and the draw engine is absurd.

I see that many other lists above have diversified their removal package. I welcome any/all suggestions. I know I need a Damnation, that's for sure. Once I get that I can work in the Urborg for mana fixing.

kombatkiwi
10-01-2013, 09:19 AM
You shouldn't be thinking of your unburial rites package in terms of inevitability. Creeping Tar pit is inevitability. Life from the Loam plus Raven's Crime is inevitability. Academy Ruins + EE is inevitability. Unburial Rites is just a massive WHOOMP THERET IS and you have to evaluate the target as such.

Griselbrand is completely winmore because it doesn't impact the board in any way when it lands. Going for an unburial rites shouldn't normally be plan A. It requires you to tap out a lot of mana in your mainphase and (usually) waste a gifts as a 4-mana entomb and therefore you want to guarantee the win whenever you have to do it. The most commonly played maindeck unburial rites targets in the last PTQ season were 1x Iona and 1x Elesh Norn, simply because many of the linear decks that can't interact with your spells (but can easily race you / grind you out) are completely shut off by these cards. You instantly win if you are able to simply hail-mary into unburial as soon as you get to 4 mana. Examples: Elesh Norn vs Affinity and Pod, Iona vs Storm and Burn etc.

Against anything blue, assuming your unburial rites will resolve is pretty sketchy, so I think the argument is irrelevant there anyway.
Against Burn, Pod, Storm, Affinity etc your opponent still has the chance to untap and kill you fairly easily even with your Griselbrand in play, so against these decks it's clearly worse than other established options.
Against midrange (or any other deck where the gamestate has devolved into a simple midrangey battle of duders) I can see Griselbrand perhaps has some merit, but is it significantly better in this matchup than Elesh Norn to the point where it deserves play instead? In practice they are very similar cards.

Elesh Norn
-Kills enemy X/2s (deathrite, Bob, Snap, Delver, Clique, Everything pod/robot etc)
-Vigilance, kills everything in combat (it's only a 4/7 but it minuses their guys so they need at minimum a fricking 9/3 to kill it and X/7s if they want to block it and not die)
-Makes your other creatures bigger

Griselbrand
-Draws cards
-Lifelink, kills everything in combat (7/7 yolo)
-Flying

I think the three gifts targets worth considering are Elesh Norn, Terastodon and Iona. Elesh Norn should always be mained because it's good against creatures (which the majority of decks in this format are using) and one of the other ones should be put in the board. (Against non-creature decks you want to board the Elesh out and I feel like 2 fattes in the 60 at all times is correct for consistency reasons). Terastodon is good in many of the same situations as Iona but is much better against tron (a very rough matchup for this deck) so I would suggest maining the elephant man alongside the white praetor.

-All the modes on profane command seem really meh.
-I don't understand why you wouldn't play Lingering Souls. It's essentially competing for the same slot as kitchen finks but you get more blocks per card, and adds a lot of value to your gifts piles by having flashback. It's very good against affinity and delver (flying) where finks isn't so impressive.
-I would play disfigure or dismember over the GftO simply because I don't want to have maindeck dead cards against one of the biggest decks in the format but if there isn't any affinity in your meta I guess it's just personal preference.
-The TFKs seem unnecessary, they don't give you any CA because you're only playing 1 artifact and you don't need to be discarding cards. If your unburial fatty is stuck in your hand then you can just + your liliana. I think you should cut these for 1mana discard (thoughtseize/inquisition)

I like the Annuls in the board, also consider Swan Songs (scapeshift, also good against enchantments like pyro ascension, twin etc), although I understand that the "counter artifact" part of the card is important.

I don't think Trygon Predator actually does anything in any matchup where you want it to do things

Anyway it's good to see people trying new things and thinking about what works and what doesn't in established archetypes. I agree that it would be a good idea to get a Damnation and an Urborg.

nodahero
10-01-2013, 12:16 PM
I agree totally with the analysis on why Griselbrand isn't going to cut it. Additionally the draw 7 is MOSTLY pointless when you run a Loam package anyway.

Also the idea of pay 7 life to draw 7 and getting a land off of the inevtiable path is hardly ideal.

I am in the boat on the 3 targets being Norn, Ioona, or Terastodon. I think an additional option is actually the Ashen Rider although he sufferes the Path issue same as Griselbrand.

I like the rider due to his evasion and his ability to remove a troublesome threat that may otherwise not be solvable at instand speed.

The clear comparison is him vs Terastodon... They both die to Path.
They both CAN destroy multiple permanents although one leaves behind 3/3 bodies which could be as much of an issue for you if they can him Terastodon any.

Testing is likely the only real answer but I know I will test the rider over Terastodon because I prefer the safer option especially in a more grindy deck like Gifts.

Mr. Safety
10-03-2013, 05:30 PM
Good insights, and I agree.

spellpierce
10-03-2013, 09:33 PM
I find counterspells don't work very nicely in this deck. What is your expected meta btw? Been playing modern gifts since BBE was banned and find the deck to be surprisingly still playable despite the presence of oozes and all.

Mr. Safety
11-29-2013, 08:43 PM
I think you're right on the permission, but I've rediscovered how good Spell Pierce can be out of the sideboard. You could play Negate in that slot like some folks do, but I find I'm always tapping out or close to it. Spell Pierce can do some great work out of the board.