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tsabo_tavoc
09-05-2011, 08:25 AM
After UR Twin, arguably a Standard deck, crowned the first Modern PT, there is the hope for the format to contain more power. The current ban list has 21 cards, many of which are innocuous.

Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Seat of the Synod
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Vault of Whispers

WotC does have the intention to trim it down, as more experiences and data of the format are accumulated. I remember many were worrying AEther Vial being legal, but there was only 1 deck using it among the moderately successful decks of the PT: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptphi11/topmoderndecks. Indeed, many old-school powers or combo parts may not be as consistent and fast as Splinter Twin.

I feel the need for a thread dedicated to the UNBANning discussion. Please choose 0-3 cards which you think are safest to come off the list, and feel free to specify your choice if it is not from the 9 candidates. The poll lasts 2 weeks, until when an official ban-list update is expected.

Make your impact:smile:

Edit: is there a way to confine the number of votes other than 1 on this forum? Mods, please help to change. I understand the urge to vote more, but there are always 3 most necessary unbans.

tsabo_tavoc
09-05-2011, 08:40 AM
My votes go to Vision, Golgari, and Jitte.

A 5th-turn draw 3 won't help combo decks, and gives midrange and control a potential boost.

Without Dread Returns, Golgari is just the best Dredger.

Jitte would be the second best Equipment (next to Cranial Plating), but Swords can still compete slots (see Legacy), and Equipment is in general underplayed.

perm
09-05-2011, 08:56 AM
Vision, Valukut and Grave Troll. Dredge won't be dominating hard even with him.

Nidd
09-05-2011, 09:40 AM
Visions.
GGT.
MMS.

Visions looks safe, Control doesn't look like a too good choice, anyways.

GGT looks safe without Cabal Therapy and Dread Return in the format.

MMS is an option to slow the format down, which could let Control into the format.

TheDarkshineKnight
09-05-2011, 09:44 AM
Vision
Bitterblossom
Misstep

Blue-based control needs to be relevant again for combo domination to end in Modern. Vision is the best card draw blue has access to in Modern. Removing Bitterblossom from the list will make Faeries relevant again. Misstep is needed to handle Zoo and anything else that makes out with 1-drops all day.

TRS-Jo
09-05-2011, 11:29 AM
Vision is absolutely safe as it is too slow for combo decks, so it will only help control decks.

Without Dread Return Golgari Grave-Troll is also an non-issue. Dredge decks without Dread Return cannot compete with the speed of nowaday legal combo decks.

Mental Misstep would be my third option. IŽd rather take JMS off the list, cause Misstep might be used for even better combo protection (against Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Nature's Claim, etc.), so I am not 100% sold on MM, but WotC should try it unbanned!

TheInfamousBearAssassin
09-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Jitte, Mental Misstep. But only if we replace them with Cloudpost and Tarmogoyf. I don't want to see the banned list thinned out much, it's making the format much more interesting than it would be otherwise.

dahcmai
09-05-2011, 12:16 PM
I'd rather keep it the way it is and teach people that those combo decks all have a severe weakness in Krosan Grip. That or just give us Force in Modern.

SpikeyMikey
09-05-2011, 12:18 PM
Vision
Bitterblossom
Misstep

Blue-based control needs to be relevant again for combo domination to end in Modern. Vision is the best card draw blue has access to in Modern. Removing Bitterblossom from the list will make Faeries relevant again. Misstep is needed to handle Zoo and anything else that makes out with 1-drops all day.

Blue wasn't relevant to begin with. Maybe, just maybe, if you bring back SFM, Jace, MM and Bitterblossoms, it might become relevant with Hypergenesis and Elves out of the format. But I doubt it. The blue-red combo decks can easily pack Gigadrowse and without free counters (something better than Disrupting Shoal or Pact of Negation), you've got no real answer. So Splinter Twin waits until turn 6 to go off, Gigadrowsing at your EoT and then untapping, playing a land and comboing out.

To be honest, I think that Hypergenesis and Elves actually had a somewhat moderating effect on the combo of the format. Because they were a full turn faster than other combo decks, they had the effect of damping the count of Splinter Twin or Hive Mind decks. Why play turn 4 combo when you can play turn 3 combo? But both decks were significantly easier to hate. Chalice of the Void was the bane of Hyper decks everywhere. So was Oblivion Ring. Splinter Twin requires dedicated hate *and* a respectable clock. Zoo with Burning Tree Shaman is a good answer. White Weenie with Suppression Field will do it. Ghostly Prison would be a good answer if the format had an actual free counterspell to deal with Repeal/Echoing Truth.

Gui
09-05-2011, 01:19 PM
I voted all wrong just to mess up with the list, cuz I had to check what would happen if I vote "nothing" and some other things too.

JKing, but it looks like Mental Misstep going out of that list could do what it has been doing to Legacy - slow it down.

DrJones
09-05-2011, 02:48 PM
I can't vote that poll because my option, which is Sensei's Divining Top, isn't there.

Azel Orfat
09-05-2011, 03:29 PM
IMO there is no need to unban any card. We have seen a lot of combo decks in the PT cause 12 Post and Zoo were the most expected decks, that's entirely logical. I think that the main reason of the no control presence in this tournament has been 12 Post as the PT main contender. But it doesn't necessarily mean that Control needs help against combo (no taking 12 post as combo). You'll probably say that Control has also problems against Zoo. Well, in general people assume that it's fair that aggro loses to combo and combo loses to control. What I don't understand is why control losing to aggro sounds unfair to many people. I can see that if you build a control deck just thinking in aggro, it's logical that you win them. But I don't understand the problematic of no finding a control deck that beats both Zoo and Combo. IMO it's the fair way, otherwise we'll probably have a dominant deck that nobody surely wants.

In the PT 12Post hasn't gotten great results although it doesn't mean that it's not strong. It has just faced lot of fast combo and lot of hate in sideboards. After this PT I guess that we should see less 12Post due to the fast combo decks and therefore control decks could and should enter and settle in the metagame. Of course, if 12Post didn't let control decks being settled in the format, I would find the nerf logical. Maybe just Emrakul, maybe Glimmerpost, don't know. In fact, I think that if they don't nerf 12post and they nerf combo decks speed, 12post would surely be dominant avoiding control decks.

About control cards in the banlist like MM, Jace or Ancestral Visions, I think that all of them are very powerful, not necessarily over. But what I think that people are not taking into account is that it hasn't still proven that Control hasn't enough tools in this format. The dominant presence of 12post has held control appearance, but that's a different thing. Yep, maybe now you let to control an overpowered card and there's no problem. But the reason is because control is not viable, not that the card is fair. (not saying above cards are or aren't unfair). Anyway I won't like to see Jace unban in part because it could reach a very high price even with reprints palliating it.

About MM I think that it's a very dangerous card. We have seen how it has made some Legacy decks being nearly unplayable like Burn, Goblins, Elves or High Tide. On the other hand, in Legacy MM is very powerful in combination with BS and FOW but here we haven't any of them. In Modern, it can counter as well some staples as Preordain, Ponder, Lighting Bolt or Path to Exile, so it would surely have a great impact. Would it make Control stronger against Combo? Well, maybe, but also most of the combo decks would surely use it for protection so I don't know if it would be a good move. On the other hand, of course it would make Control stronger against aggro, but is aggro the current problem?? Don't think so. Also, I wouldn't like to see MM in non blue decks and maybe it could happen.

Finally I'd see the ancestral vision unban as the less dangerous, although I'm not entirely sure that it would be correct.

tsabo_tavoc
09-05-2011, 03:44 PM
Regarding Mental Misstep: Why do people think it will screw combo, or slow down the format noticeably? Modern combo decks go off no sooner than turn 4, and the kills do not involve 1cc spells (There is one, Glimpse of Nature, which is banned.). The main targets are creature removals, discards and cantrips, and the fair decks may be hurt more than the unfair (combo) decks.

MM slowed down Legacy because the format used to have fast Aggro decks and super fast combo decks. The successful Modern Aggro and Combo correspond to Midrange and Show & Tell decks in Legacy, both have been benefited from MM. Therefore, I cannot see Mental Misstep slowing down the format, but it would likely push Black out of the color pie.

Aggro is WotC's baby, and Combo is their stepchild, just saying.


Blue wasn't relevant to begin with.

I kind of agree and I am so grateful there is an eternal format without Brainstorm. Blue is still everywhere, but it is more seen as a splash. The reason is obvious: you don't need 20 blue cards to support FOW, just splash for the best blue cards.


I can't vote that poll because my option, which is Sensei's Divining Top, isn't there.

I don't see Top being broken. CounterTop is not that great given the curve of the format, Green Sun's Zenith, and the lack of Force of Will. However, most combo decks would love Top, making it prevalent (although not broken), and there comes the time issue. I doubt WotC would consider Top, especially since there are many more obvious choices around.

Edit: just saw the post.


About MM I think that it's a very dangerous card. We have seen how it has made some Legacy decks being nearly unplayable like Burn, Goblins, Elves or High Tide. On the other hand, in Legacy MM is very powerful in combination with BS and FOW but here we haven't any of them. In Modern, it can counter as well some staples as Preordain, Ponder, Lighting Bolt or Path to Exile, so it would surely have a great impact. Would it make Control stronger against Combo? Well, maybe, but also most of the combo decks would surely use it for protection so I don't know if it would be a good move. On the other hand, of course it would make Control stronger against aggro, but is aggro the current problem?? Don't think so. Also, I wouldn't like to see MM in non blue decks and maybe it could happen.

+1

Zunam
09-05-2011, 03:54 PM
In my opinion both Bitterblossom and Ancestral Vision are safe.

Ancestral Vision won't have a big impact at all. I think Visions on its own is not enough to make control-viable.

Bitterblossom is a fine card either. Even when unbanning it, Faeries won't take over the format. There are too many decks that can beat it (from what I can say from the few test-matches I've played before Modern and the Banned-List became official).

Mental Misstep on the other hand should stay on the banned list in my opinion. It will not bring back control but it will help the combo-decks more than it slows them.
This is not Legacy. Most combo decks are not running many spells (and especially no important spells) in the 1 CC slot.
Twin Exarch is already a strong deck but Mental Misstep would push it even more (providing free protection against a lot of removal spells like Lightning Bolt, Galvanic Blast, Path to Exile that can take down Exarch or Pestermite as well as protecting against discard).

SpikeyMikey
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
In the PT 12Post hasn't gotten great results although it doesn't mean that it's not strong. It has just faced lot of fast combo and lot of hate in sideboards. After this PT I guess that we should see less 12Post due to the fast combo decks and therefore control decks could and should enter and settle in the metagame.

I think that the problem is that the Pros went the wrong direction trying to race aggro and combo. You should race Zoo just because you can Primeval into double Glimmerpost early, that's enough right there unless they've got Mindcensor or weird junk like Flames of the Blood Hand. While Through the Breach can let you get a hasty beat with a massive critter against combo, and while Amulet of Vigor can let you get early kills with a good hand, neither is right for beating combo. You're diluting your decks function to try and race a deck that is inherently faster than you with more disruption. GreenPost functions because it has inevitability. It says, "race me or die". But by the very nature of the deck, it's slow. Magus, Amulet, Breach, these are all attempts to speed it up to turn 4 to match the combo decks of the format.

The correct direction to go with the combo matchup, imo, is to splash white and board Suppression Field and Angel's Grace. Suppression Field stops Twin and Persist (which is a factor if people ever stop playing that crappy MTGO version with no disruption. Seriously, who the fuck is running no disruption and expecting to win in this format?) and Angel's Grace stops all the other BS combo decks. Grapeshot me for a billion? Great, I'll Angel's Grace. Hive Mind? Grace. Lightning Bolt copied 5 times? I'll go ahead and Grace, if that's ok with you. And even if it's not, because it has split second. You don't need forever. You just need to shut them off once to buy yourself a turn or two, and that turn or two is where you hit critical mass. And, if need be, it can buy you that critical turn against Zoo or Affinity as well. Depending on what you have to board out.

daugarten
09-05-2011, 06:53 PM
I don't like Mental Misstep because it only helps Control vs. Aggro and Combo vs. everything else.

I don't like Visions because unbanning it wont affect Combo decks at all. In fact, it might help Combo find pieces or answers to disruption if they get disrupted early and need just one more piece to get back in the game.

I think the Troll needs to be unbanned now that Dread Return is gone. Dredging is not OP at the moment and needs a chance to get back into the scene.

I believe they need to ban Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. Permanent-based combos like Twin and Ascension are fine with me since they can be disrupted by any deck, but not all decks can fight a combo that uses only spells, especially since control isn't a big archetype right now.

DrJones
09-05-2011, 07:21 PM
The control killer is 12post. 12post is unaffected by Mental Misstep, so people asking for this unban are just losers wanting to be able to play modern just like vintage/legacy, with an elephant guarding their goal, and claiming that the elephant is fair because the goalkeeper isn't the one that scores.

tsabo_tavoc
09-05-2011, 08:01 PM
I don't like Visions because unbanning it wont affect Combo decks at all. In fact, it might help Combo find pieces or answers to disruption if they get disrupted early and need just one more piece to get back in the game.

A combo player who packs Ancestral Vision would make the opponent so happy.


The control killer is 12post. 12post is unaffected by Mental Misstep, so people asking for this unban are just losers wanting to be able to play modern just like vintage/legacy, with an elephant guarding their goal, and claiming that the elephant is fair because the goalkeeper isn't the one that scores.

Haha, makes my night.

daugarten
09-05-2011, 08:51 PM
A combo player who packs Ancestral Vision would make the opponent so happy.

Why is that? To my knowledge neither Splinter Twin, Ascension, or Storm have many Turn 1 plays. I'm not saying it's optimal, or even fits nicely into the deck lists that did well last weekend at the PT, but it could potentially be abused by a new combo list. Regardless, unbanning Visions still doesn't really do much to stop Combo.

dahcmai
09-05-2011, 09:46 PM
If I had visions back we wouldn't be playing combo, it would be faeries. It's about the only real big one missing. Bitterblossom would seal the deal. I really don't want to have to deal with that monster again. It's already half playable in Legacy.

mojoiskewl
09-05-2011, 11:04 PM
Expounding what Dr. Jones said.

Instead of unbanning stuff, just ban Cloudpost.

Control decks become viable again. Which in turn, gives aggro something to nibble upon. Combo slows down to make room for cards to interact with control or just plays the "dodge control the whole tournament" game.
Everybody happy?

Also unban GGT.

Gheizen64
09-06-2011, 03:31 AM
I'm finding funny that people can seriously argue for banning here. You know what? Overextended was a format invasion forward with this banned list:

Bridge From Below

Disciple of the Vault

Hypergenesis

Mind’s Desire

Narcomoeba

Sensei’s Divining Top

Skullclamp

Sword of the Meek


And it was a decisevely more diverse format than current Modern. The only consistent combo that saw play was Elves. Twelvepost was good, but raced by Zoo and RG Elves and whatsnot. Bitterblossom unbanned made Junk decks viable. Faeries was a viable but not too good deck even with BB and Vial in the format. Goblin and merfolk were average, but present , too. Even reanimator had a good presence and was played thanks to Life // Death being available in that format.

WotC management of this format was horrible. Chapin's format was so much better (especially from the point MM were going to be legal) it isn't even funny.

Aggro_zombies
09-06-2011, 03:44 AM
Why is that? To my knowledge neither Splinter Twin, Ascension, or Storm have many Turn 1 plays.
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
X Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand
CiPT Lands

You were saying...?

Anyway, I think any bannings/unbannings that take place need to be done with UR Cantrip Combo in mind. That label describes the lion's share of successful decks from this Pro Tour, and those decks are likely to take over any emerging metagame since they'll like be used as a starting point. With that in mind, MMS probably helps, but blue is still such a shitty color in this format outside of combo. I guess it gives Zoo another way to interact.

SpikeyMikey
09-06-2011, 09:07 AM
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
X Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand
CiPT Lands

You were saying...?

Anyway, I think any bannings/unbannings that take place need to be done with UR Cantrip Combo in mind. That label describes the lion's share of successful decks from this Pro Tour, and those decks are likely to take over any emerging metagame since they'll like be used as a starting point. With that in mind, MMS probably helps, but blue is still such a shitty color in this format outside of combo. I guess it gives Zoo another way to interact.

MM is better in combo against Zoo than vice versa. Your biggest concern against Zoo is Path on an Exarch or Bolt/Lavamancer vs. Pestermite. Zoo's got the clock, they just need to stop you from comboing off for a turn or two. If they can push you out to turn 5 or 6, they can beat you. But being in U/R, things like Ethersworn Cannonist or Gaddock Teeg become poor answers for combo because Bolt and Firespout are easy answers to hate bears.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think Splinter Twin is the strongest deck in the format. I said several times that I thought it would win the whole thing. But I also think that it's unlikely to dominate the format. It's definitely a tier 1 deck, but also very beatable. Zoo with BTS, for example, gives the deck fits. It's out of Bolt range and effectively halves their life total, as comboing out even with Pestermite requires taking 10 from BTS. (20 with Exarch, the safer play against Zoo because it's unboltable). Suppression Field shuts the deck down completely until they find a Repeal/Echoing Truth.

And the other 3 U/R combo decks, Hive Mind, Ascension and Swath are simply subpar. Angel's Grace beats all 3, but Krosan Grip beats the two more popular, Ascension and Swath. Discard is also good against these decks. Splinter Twin has too much redundancy to really be affected by discard, but the rest all need to get a copy of a 4-of enchantment into play.

And I wouldn't count GreenPost out as a metagame factor. Any way you slice it, it's not a deck you want to play in a combo-heavy meta, but people will continue to play it and it's passable against combo if you board properly.

Also, my Persist is as good as Twin and it's more difficult for Twin to hate out Persist than vice versa.

anonymos
09-06-2011, 11:08 AM
Vision
Bitterblossom
Misstep

Blue-based control needs to be relevant again for combo domination to end in Modern. Vision is the best card draw blue has access to in Modern. Removing Bitterblossom from the list will make Faeries relevant again. Misstep is needed to handle Zoo and anything else that makes out with 1-drops all day.

I didn't play Standard while Faeries was legal. I heard it was awful though. I have a feeling that doing all three of these at once would completely twist the meta. I think that leaving BB and MMS on the list for now and starting with Ancestral Visions may be the right call. If nothing else, it'd give them the opportunity to appease the control players by bringing back what is probably the least damaging of the banned cards.

On an unrelated note, would Tree of Tales be safe unbanning? It's the one color I don't recall seeing in Affinity pretty much ever.

Shawn
09-06-2011, 12:01 PM
I don't see UB Faeries being an issue. They have a very hard time beating active Punishing Fires if they don't walk into getting it taken by a Clique. They would have to play some amount of Ghost Quarters/Tectonic Edges, but they probably can't play a full set in addition to 4x Mutavault if they would want to play Cryptic (which they would). I guess they could play Spreading Seas, but that seems pretty mopey maindeck.

dschalter
09-06-2011, 05:12 PM
I didn't play Standard while Faeries was legal. I heard it was awful though. I have a feeling that doing all three of these at once would completely twist the meta. I think that leaving BB and MMS on the list for now and starting with Ancestral Visions may be the right call. If nothing else, it'd give them the opportunity to appease the control players by bringing back what is probably the least damaging of the banned cards.

On an unrelated note, would Tree of Tales be safe unbanning? It's the one color I don't recall seeing in Affinity pretty much ever.

Affinity did play green at various points, mainly for artifact hate in the mirror. Tree would be a 4 of in the deck and would make it considerably stronger (artifact lands make almost every single card in the deck better after all). It might not be overpowered, but there's no real reason to poke the bear, given that Affinity is already a viable deck.

tsabo_tavoc
09-20-2011, 04:47 AM
I was going to conclude the thread, but the updated ban list makes it silly.

The very first sentence of the thread is silly, as Modern decks are not beating Standard decks now. Good job Wizard, I guess I just put too high hope on you since the Mystical Tutor ban and some Legacy unbans.

Wizard is not really unfathomable, and my quote in the signature speaks it well.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Wizards is NOT going to unban anything blue. They clearly want this to be an aggro-based, turn your dude sideways with some bolts and PTE, format.

However, that is not what is going to kill this format. Every new set that comes out, new cards come out that could unleash a new combo deck. Without control decks to keep those new combos in check, players in Modern are basically left to the mercy of those combo decks until 4 months after WotC decides to ban them. Frankly, that is not a format I find to be enjoyable in the least. At least in legacy if I'm playing some mid-range deck, I know someone is playing a control deck of sort that is good at fighting combo decks and keeping them in check.

Not in Modern. That safety net is gone.

SpikeyMikey
09-20-2011, 07:31 PM
Wizards is NOT going to unban anything blue. They clearly want this to be an aggro-based, turn your dude sideways with some bolts and PTE, format.

However, that is not what is going to kill this format. Every new set that comes out, new cards come out that could unleash a new combo deck. Without control decks to keep those new combos in check, players in Modern are basically left to the mercy of those combo decks until 4 months after WotC decides to ban them. Frankly, that is not a format I find to be enjoyable in the least. At least in legacy if I'm playing some mid-range deck, I know someone is playing a control deck of sort that is good at fighting combo decks and keeping them in check.

Not in Modern. That safety net is gone.

Qft. Sort of. It's not what Wizard's wants. It's what the mewling masses want. Remember about 8 years ago there was a poll. "Is 'Counterspell' too good?" Wizards asked. And the overwhelming response was that yes, it was. Ever since that day, Standard has been marching down the path of mediocrity. And Extended has failed because the sets they're printing don't work in large numbers; there's no Draw-Go deck to keep the bullshit 6cmc cards in check. And Tommy thinks that's what he wants until he realizes that Spike is going to violate him like a scene from a Japanese tentacle tape porno with some bullshit combo. But without real control, not Fae or Cruel Control but honest to goodness counter your face off control, the format will be at the mercy of the lowest costing game ender, whether that is Primeval into Emrakul or Splinter Twin. Because the decks that can best make use of cheap situational sort-of Counterspells are combo decks that don't need to reach late game.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 08:17 PM
I think we can watch Modern and see what happens. Should things go to hell beyond now (which I fully expect), then we can use the Modern format as an example of why Counterspells like Force of Will and why control decks are needed for balance in an eternal format.