[Deck] Grow

[sillyandrew]

i'm not entirely sure on how well positioned a deck like this would be (because blue actually seems balanced in his format) but i really think i deck like this could have some potential.

quirion dryad has always been a pet card of mine, and modern might be the format that can really support her (aside from vintage, so many years ago). without further introduction, here's my version of U/G grow:


4x quirion dryad
4x tarmogoyf
4x lorescale coatl
2x vendilion clique

4x ponder
3x serum visions
3x preordain

2x spell snare
2x spell pierce
3x mana leak
2x disrupting shoal
4x rune snag

4x misty rainforest
4x breeding pool
4x ghost quarter
3x forest
8x island



i tried my best to combine aspects of old miracle grow lists, with more (or less) recent tempo lists, and given the restrictions of the format, this is what i came up with. the creatures and the mana base is pretty straight forward, but it's the counter-suite that really took me a long time to reach, and i'm still not sure if it's right. any ideas on how to make the control aspect of a list like this a little better? maybe it's running too many counters all together? maybe it needs a splash color for some spot removal.

...as you can tell, it's still extremely early-on in it's development.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Well, i think its too slow and tiny for Zoo and cant really handle 12post. It could go decent vs Splinter, but thats about it i guess :/
Maybe adding red would be a wise route here....Burn could fix some problems.

[264505]

Remand needs to be a 4 of in every deck running blue that isnt combo. The card is such a huge tempo swing.

[Kich867]

I had a bunch of random thoughts but it got long-winded so I'll kinda summarize my ideas here:

Dungrove Elder
Gitaxian Probe
Green Sun's Zenith
Dryad Arbor
Remand
Cryptic Command
Repeal

I think the Elder fits the concept well and provides a much needed hard to deal with big creature for fairly cheap. It deals with zoo fairly well in conjunction with Repeal, since the only thing in zoo you'd have to worry about is a Lynx on crack and repeal bounces it, grows dryad and coatl and maybe Goyf, and the big scary landfall shenanigans are over for a bit.

Gitaxian Probe, given that it is both a blue card and draws for you, I feel like this is almost necessary somewhere, I'd drop Serum Visions for it. Instead of saying: "Can I realistically go turn 2 Dryad, turn 3 Coatl?" you can just look at their hand to see if they have any way of dealing with your things; if they do, ride one creature and protect it, if they don't, go nuts.

I feel like the deck should have the mindset of like.. everything should cantrip? Repeal, Cryptic Command, Remand, all come to mind on top of the Ponder/Preordain/Probe package. Clique is good too, you can hit yourself with it to grow everything and it provides valuable disruption.

12 Post is probably the biggest concern for the deck. However blue actually has a few answers to the cloudpost lands: Spreading Seas and Sea's Claim on top of Ghost Quarter's could do a good job slowing their ramp.

[sillyandrew]

remand is something that never crossed my mind, but should certainly have a spot in the deck as a 4x, repeal as well, but i don't know about a 4x, maybe a 2x.

spreading seas is easily a 4x in the sideboard, but i really haven't given the sideboard too much thought.

i don't know if dungrove elder would really help too much though, as you're really going to want to be fetching for islands in an attempt to cast multiple draw spells per turn.

given those additions, maybe a more ideal list would look something like:


3x quirion dryad
3x lorescale coatl
2x tarmogoyf
2x vendilion clique

4x ponder
4x gitaxian probe

4x green sun's zenith
3x repeal

1x spell snare
1x spell pierce
2x disrupting shoal
4x remand
4x rune snag

4x misty rainforest
4x breeding pool
4x ghost quarter
1x dryad arbor
3x forest
7x island


sideboard:

4x spreading seas

11x other cards

i really don't know how i feel about cryptic command, and whether or not there's a place for it. i think it's a little too slow, and might only be best as a 1x or 2x. that being said, i'm still not really comfortable with the counter suite.

[Mr. Safety]

I think a package that deserves playtesting is the Grove/Fires + Kavu Predator combination. Grove/Fires is good on it's own and Predator could be a 1-2 of to fetch with GSZ. If StP was in the format, I wouldn't hesitate to use Predator x4 in a setup like this.

Just a thought. The control aspect of it is solid.

[umbowta]

that being said, i'm still not really comfortable with the counter suite.This!

It's the biggest problem I've been facing while building Ugr Modern Gro. Sporenfrosch1411 said earlier that burn could fix some problems, and I think he's right. Here's what I've come up with so far.




3x grim lavamancer
4x quirion dryad
3x tarmogoyf
2x trygon predator
2x vendilion clique
2x mystic snake


4x lightning bolt
4x magma jet
4x preordain
2x gitaxian probe
2x think twice


2x spell snare
2x spell pierce
4x remand
2x echoing truth


4x misty rainforest
4x scalding tarn
2x breeding pool
2x steam vents
4x island
1x forest
1x mountain


Card choices:

Trygon Predator--between Pyromancer Ascension and Affinity I think it belongs in the maindeck.

Mystic Snake--the deck really wants hard counters sometimes. This one just happens to come with a body

Magma Jet--after testing with both Incinerate and Jet it was the obvious choice. In fact, the card selection benefit sometimes makes Jet better than Bolt. Crazy. I know.

Think Twice--the lack of instant speed draw was too much for me to take. This seems like the better choice over Telling Time because it can put more counters on dryad.

Echoing Truth--the fact that this can bounce an army of hasty goblins can be game breaking. Also, Repeal just didn't shine as brightly as I thought it would. More testing is still needed though.

[Kich867]

I guess I don't really see the point of Grim Lavamancer, as he only has the potential to reduce the power of an already limited Tarmogoyf (Instant/Sorcery/Land/Creature are the only card types in the deck, he caps out at a 4/5). I don't see the point of running Mystic Snake over Cryptic Command.

I'd somewhat like to see more Spell pierce / Spell Snare, it's just getting hard to squeeze them in, same with Cryptic Command. If anything though, more spell snares. Shoal can pitch like 20 cards to counter a 1 drop (PtE, LB, Oust), but there aren't any 2 drop blue cards in the deck, so a cheap way to stop Go for the Throat and timewalk them on their second turn would be ideal.

--

I think Repeal as a 2x is a good choice, though I definitely echo the sentiments that it often underperforms, but it's uncontested for bouncing cmc 1-3 creatures while drawing a card.

If you dropped that down to 2, you could up Spell Snare up to 2, which feels spot on. I guess the real problem with countermagic in this format is the idea that you have to kind of leave a lot of mana open to do it and the only 2 mana counterspells that exist are all conditional counters. However if any deck to do it would, it would be this one.

As much as I like remand it does make me somewhat nervous, if it's the only counter in your hand when the PtE hits you kind of have to pray you hit another one..

I do like the idea of Think Twice, I guess I just don't know what you could really take out in order to fit it in. Shoal comes to mind actually, but it's clutch having free counters.

I feel like Probe is kind of in the TT spot, so a 2/2 split might be possible, but I do somewhat agree that the deck..to some extent needs to splash another color.


3x Quirion Dryad
3x Dark Confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Ponder
3x Think Twice

3x Duress
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Go for the Throat

4x Rune Snag
4x Remand
3x Spell Snare

+ 23 Lands

Of the growing creatures I feel like Lorescale was weaker; it's harder and more expensive to cast and while it grows passively turn by turn, it only seemed really powerful in the first list when there were 10 card filtering cantrips and it was plausible turn 4 to chain them together to make him huge. Quirion Dryad is easier to play, synergizes with the entire deck, and double dips into the cantrips. While Lorescale would only grow off the draw, Dryad would grow off the cantrip + Whatever the cantrip drew.

One downside to splashing was removing Green Sun's Zenith, but it was necessary to still maintain a solid disrupt/control suite. I feel this is justified given the deck's massive force of card filtering / card advantage. This deck will always see a shit load of cards, Bob + 11 Cantrips (you could change GFTT to Repeal and make it 13 but outright killing something seems more efficient) will absolutely make sure of that.

I opted out of Cryptic Command in the list as the potential 4 life loss off bob would suck in a format that already beats the hell out of you for having a consistent mana base. This is also why Thoughtseize was not taken. For the most part, Thoughtseize is the best discard because it's flexible but we don't really need a flexible discard in this deck, we need a discard to target 2 things: removal and counters, Duress and IoK hit all relevant versions of those without causing life loss.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Gigadrowse (and maybe Shattering Spree) seem like the tits in this deck, if they interact with Dryad the way I'm assuming.

And I also agree with people who've been saying this deck should use burn, taking a cue from Canadian Thresh lists in Legacy. The counter suite available in Modern is too weak to do without some type of removal, and I think the ability to double as reach probably beats the utility of something like Path to Exile or Go for the Throat in this deck. Having said that, while I think URG is probably the best color combination for Quirion Dryad, who knows. Blue is probably the best base color for this type of tempo strategy, but it may not turn out to actually be. We should keep an open mind, this isn't Legacy after all, and the counterspells available to us are a little lackluster. I could see Dryad being pretty decent in a Jund shell actually, for example. I think different color combinations warrant testing.

Also, Kitchen Finks probably warrants testing, since this deck seems a little soft to Zoo, and it's another beater that provides pseudo card advantage (and it grows Dryad.) Also, I think Lorescale Coatl is not really a great card.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Gigadrowse (and maybe Shattering Spree) seem like the tits in this deck, if they interact with Dryad the way I'm assuming.


I guess I don't know what "the tits" really means to you, but it probably doesn't. Whenever you CAST a spell, not whenever a copy of a spell resolves Dryad gets the counters. So if by "the tits" you meant it can tap a few permanents and let you swing or you can blow up some artifacts and then swing (both with +1/+1 only) then it is "tits."

[umbowta]

Gigadrowse (and maybe Shattering Spree) seem like the tits in this deck, if they interact with Dryad the way I'm assuming.

And I also agree with people who've been saying this deck should use burn, taking a cue from Canadian Thresh lists in Legacy. The counter suite available in Modern is too weak to do without some type of removal, and I think the ability to double as reach probably beats the utility of something like Path to Exile or Go for the Throat in this deck. Having said that, while I think URG is probably the best color combination for Quirion Dryad, who knows. Blue is probably the best base color for this type of tempo strategy, but it may not turn out to actually be. We should keep an open mind, this isn't Legacy after all, and the counterspells available to us are a little lackluster. I could see Dryad being pretty decent in a Jund shell actually, for example. I think different color combinations warrant testing.

Also, Kitchen Finks probably warrants testing, since this deck seems a little soft to Zoo, and it's another beater that provides pseudo card advantage (and it grows Dryad.) Also, I think Lorescale Coatl is not really a great card.

Ancient Grudge is already better than Shattering Spree and actually does interact the way you want it to.

I'll work with Urg until I'm blue in the face (pun intended). Cheap beaters, mild permission, and burn is a proven formula. However, it requires a thoughtful pilot and metagame knowledge. The latter of which is still forthcoming.

I agree about the coatl. Give me Vexing Sphinx anyday over coatl--and I'd only run 2-3 of 'em at that.

[umbowta]

Not alot of foreplay here. I'm just gonna dump a fun modern decklist on your computer screen for now and hope to get some construtive feedback. I've been working on this pile for a while, now I'm ready to throw it out there for some fine tuning assistance.

4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Fathom Seer
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Telling Time
3 Spell Pierce
1 Familiar’s Ruse
4 Deprive
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Life From the Loam

5 Island
1 Halimar Depths
3 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Breeding Pool
3 Ghost Quarter

It should be clear from the list that the deck seeks to abuse various synergies forced upon us by the limited Modern card pool. Vinelasher Kudzu is a bomb in this deck which, with LFtL and fetches/Ghost Quarter, is capable of putting crazy amounts of counters on the Kudzu even in the late game. Sakura-Tribe Elder makes it that much easier and accelerates the early game. The Elder also allows you to play lands on your opponents turn which can allow for some unexpected counter ability shenanigans.

Thats all for now,

umbowta

[umbowta]

yippee

[4eak]

Grow threads merged.

-4eak

[umbowta]

Grow threads merged.

-4eak Could you do us the favor of un-merging them? Pretty please. The simple fact is that my list shares exactly 6 cards with the OP (outside of the manabase) and plays completely differently.

I intentionally started a new thread due to the fact that the OP has not been modified/updated since the bannings, i.e., the OP is garbage now and a new thread would have served us better, imho.

[4eak]

Until a perceived metagame and decklists crystallize, I think it is more valuable to keep discussions of a deck concept in the same thread. Your deck has a different approach to the same concept, which is fine. You should explain why and try to persuade us that Grow should follow your approach.

At this point in time, it is just as important to talk about macro-level construction of a deck as it is to talk about construction at a micro-level. If and when the day comes that a particular version of Grow stands out from the rest of the pack, then we'll definitely make a new thread for it.

I think it is a good idea to explain why you've moved away from the decklist you see in the OP or the other one you've posted in this thread (both of which seem traditional enough). Pointing to bannings, by itself, doesn't seem good enough. For example, we still can run Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, and Sleight of Hand in this deck.


peace,
4eak

[umbowta]

Whoa...that was a whole lotta red. :frown: In this thread it stays for now then.


Your deck has a different approach to the same concept, which is fine. You should explain why and try to persuade us that Grow should follow your approach.

I think it is a good idea to explain why you've moved away from the decklist you see in the OP or the other one you've posted in this thread (both of which seem traditional enough). Pointing to bannings, by itself, doesn't seem good enough. For example, we still can run Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, and Sleight of Hand in this deck.


peace,


Actually, it all started way back when we realized that Modern was short on good, instant speed draw and has an unfortunate abundance of overcosted or conditional counters with built in drawbacks. Now, as we know, Quirion Dryad is best in Ug gro when played early and protected with quality cantrips and counters-- which Modern lacks for the most part. Dryad also suffers from being difficult to grow in the late game. So why grow a Dryad in Ug when you could grow a plant instead?

I started looking at the various counters and cross referencing them to each other and to other spells that could turn those drawbacks into a benefit instead of a obstacle. The best two hard counters with drawbacks were Deprive and Familiar's Ruse. Here's where Vinelasher Kudzu comes into the picture.
Vinelasher has arguably the best landfall ability out there. The synergy between Vinelasher and Deprive is obvious but Vinelasher works best when you can drop at least one land every turn. Even with Deprive there were times when the land ran dry. Enter Fathom Seer and Life from the Loam. These two cards not only single handedly provide enough land recursion to produce sickeningly large Vinelashers but also provide a mini draw engine and smooth the mana base.

With a solidified mana base and some draw (w/legs) the deck actually began to have too many cards in hand at EOT. That’s where the Scout helps out.
Sakura-Tribe Scout is a permanent way to replay bounced lands, abuse Vinelasher and Ghost Quarter, and intentionally misrepresent the amount of mana you have access to on your opponents turn. He’s an accelerant on turn one and enables you to LftL/Ghost Quarter a greedy land base out of the game.

Kitchen Finks and E.E.- great against Zoo and randomness too
Shackles- so far so good but I’d drop to one if I could tutor it up. Stealing Twin’s Spellskites…they’ll probably want to side those out. :smile:
Kira-well, she’s good but not threatening enough for me to be satisfied. I’m not decided on Kira yet.
Familiar’s Ruse- Countering a spell while allowing you to reuse Fathom Seer or Kitchen Finks is cool but the drawback is too harsh for more than 2 of them. Right now I think one is the right number.

Well, that’s it in a nutshell. Hope that helps convince you to play this over the cantrip/Dryad/Coatl list…maybe even it’s own deserved thread with an up to date OP? :smile:

Later,
umbowta

Here's the list again so you dont have to scroll all over the place to see what I'm talking about:

4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Fathom Seer
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

4 Telling Time
3 Spell Pierce
1 Familiar’s Ruse
4 Deprive
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Life From the Loam

5 Island
1 Halimar Depths
3 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Breeding Pool
3 Ghost Quarter

[Kich867]

Ugh just lost a big post T_T;;

I'll summarize:
I don't feel you have enough mana colors to run EE, but keep that idea there for a suggestion I have.
Drop shackles, you don't run enough islands and you hinge too much on green to keep your grow going.
Dryad is nice because you don't focus much on green, you just run Dryad and Tarmogoyf and splash other colors to make the deck more robust--I'd probably splash black or white.

So on to my suggestion, what do you think about a list like this:


//Creatures: 18
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vinelasher Kudzu
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Fathom Seer

//Spells: 18
4x Telling Time
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oust
2x Familiar's Ruse
3x Life from the Loam
3x Gifts Ungiven

//Artifacts: 2
2x Engineered Explosives

//Lands: 22
1x Academy Ruins
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Ghost Quarters
4x Island
2x Plains
2x Forest

This gives you a stronger creature base, a recurring draw engine that grows both knight and kudzu, spot removal, and a way to set up recurring board removal via ruins + EE, as well as a way to fetch most of it. (Gifts for Loam + Horizon + EE + Academy, it doesn't matter what hits you can get it all back)

[UnsungHero]

What about including Coiling Oracle in this deck? Card draw and a potential free land drop that also provides as a blocker?

[Kich867]

What about including Coiling Oracle in this deck? Card draw and a potential free land drop that also provides as a blocker?

I'm wondering if that may be a better option than fathom seer, it doesn't set you back any mana and the investment is so much smaller.

[umbowta]

Ugh just lost a big post T_T;;

I'll summarize:
I don't feel you have enough mana colors to run EE, but keep that idea there for a suggestion I have.
Drop shackles, you don't run enough islands and you hinge too much on green to keep your grow going.
Dryad is nice because you don't focus much on green, you just run Dryad and Tarmogoyf and splash other colors to make the deck more robust--I'd probably splash black or white.

So on to my suggestion, what do you think about a list like this:


//Creatures: 18
3x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vinelasher Kudzu
3x Kitchen Finks
4x Fathom Seer

//Spells: 18
4x Telling Time
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oust
2x Familiar's Ruse
3x Life from the Loam
3x Gifts Ungiven

//Artifacts: 2
2x Engineered Explosives

//Lands: 22
1x Academy Ruins
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Ghost Quarters
4x Island
2x Plains
2x Forest


This gives you a stronger creature base, a recurring draw engine that grows both knight and kudzu, spot removal, and a way to set up recurring board removal via ruins + EE, as well as a way to fetch most of it. (Gifts for Loam + Horizon + EE + Academy, it doesn't matter what hits you can get it all back)

I like that list a lot. It's too bad you lost the full version of that post. I can see that you've got alot of good ideas in there that could have used a little further explanation. I have definitely been considering splashing white for KotR and Path, but also for Meddling Mage.
The Gifts/Loam engine has also been a consideration. It's consistent as all hell but I'm worried it might be too slow. I've been playing Intuition/Loam for a long time now in Legacy and I love the deck. The only problem is that you lose so many of the necessary tempo pieces in the transition to Modern. You've got to be able to stall for the first couple of turns, especially against Zoo, while you set up. With Gifts in the mix, the spell package would be better off as:




//Spells: 18
3x Telling Time
2x Spell Pierce
4x Path to Exile
3x Deprive
1x Familiar's Ruse
2x Life from the Loam
3x Gifts Ungiven


I already felt like 2-3 Loam was the right number. With Gifts it is certainly 2. I cut Familiar's Ruse down to one because, while it's a synergistic counter while you've got Finks and Seers around, you can't always count on having a creature in play. Now, with Horizon Canopy, Telling Time becomes less important so it goes down to 3. This make room for a couple Deprive's. I also replaced Oust with PtE. It is the better card hands down.


What about including Coiling Oracle in this deck? Card draw and a potential free land drop that also provides as a blocker?Without Tribe Scout, you'll tend to clog your hand sometimes between Deprive and Seer. If that's happening too much I'd surely lean in the direction of replacing Seer with Oracle.
With Tribe Scout, I ran a 3/3 split between Fathom Seer and Coiling Oracle for a little while. Coiling Oracle is great but it's not as good as Seer against UR Wildfires--the pet deck of one of my regular opponents. Aside from that, Fathom Seer has a much fatter ass which made it a far superior blocker against Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and the like. It also draws you 2 cards instead of one.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm pretty sure Delver of Secrets belongs in any deck that uses Quirion Dryad. And I feel that RUG are probably the best colors for this deck,

a la Canadian Thresh.

[perm]

I think UGW or UGR is the way to go, for removal that you don't have otherwise. Why is oust considered over PtE? Is this deck concerned about ramp?

[umbowta]

I think UGW or UGR is the way to go, for removal that you don't have otherwise. Why is oust considered over PtE? Is this deck concerned about ramp?I don't know what Kich867 was thinking with Oust. PtE is clearly the better choice. In fact PtE is the main reason I'm leaning toward UGW over UGR. The deck really does need that third color though. EE just isn't doing enough without it.

[Mr. Safety]

The only possible reason I can think of for using oust is Kavu Predator, and maybe Punishing Fires.

[Kich867]

I think UGW or UGR is the way to go, for removal that you don't have otherwise. Why is oust considered over PtE? Is this deck concerned about ramp?

Genuinely forgot PTE existed, I was like "Herp derp swords isn't legal! wtf is?!" and the only thing that came to mind was like Oust and Condemn haha.

I'm wondering if Snapcaster Mage would be a good addition to the deck? Double ramp for Dryad out of one card?

[perm]

snapcaster is an all around good card. absolutely worth testing