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mojoiskewl
09-20-2011, 02:29 AM
What do you guys think?

I think its gonna be.

combo is now dead, there is an unbalance in the aggro-control-combo triangle


also, called it! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22030-Poll-Trimming-from-21/page2)

GGoober
09-20-2011, 03:06 AM
No Ponder, no Preordain, no Top so that severely strains control, not to mention the lack of early game counterspells (no Daze/FoW/Misstep/counterspell). Tap out control maybe viable. No combo only means that aggro gets stronger. I played a Gifts Teachings deck that almost could never lose to combo (I actually swapped the shocks and Ghost Quarters for Duals and Wastelands and tested against a Vintage deck and was close to beating it).

But the deck had a hard time beating aggro, because aggro loses barely any speed compared to Legacy, whereas control loses all the speed. Aggro takes a lot of damage from fast fetch-shocks, but control player is very often forced to do the same to match the aggro player, this immediately creates an advantage for the aggro player since the control player's life is starting low as a way to answer the fast aggro clock. Basically until they print some faster counterspell (Snare is amazing, people don't play it enough, remand sucks in 'pure' control) like counterspell itself, and give a stronger early game, the only form of control that is truly viable is probably going to be primarily tap out, with maybe some instants here and there.

Mr. Safety
09-20-2011, 08:38 AM
I agree with you there, Metalworker. My BUG list is a lot closer to a tap-out control list than a true control list, with only a smattering of permission (Spell Snare of course, Mana Leak, and Spell Pierces having some slots in/out of the sideboard at times.)

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 08:46 AM
Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

rufus
09-20-2011, 08:57 AM
Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

I think there'll be at least one more round of combo domination and ban-hammering first... How long 'till the Modern ban list is longer than the Legacy one?

jancz
09-20-2011, 08:57 AM
More like Aggro Galore. Affinity and Zoo are still decks as is Jund. Boros and Burn may see play as well now. Also Ad Nauseam Conflag combo?

Maveric78f
09-20-2011, 09:06 AM
Oh god, modern is such a shit format. Aggro decks are going to be the decks to beat. Maybe this is what Wizards wants: an eternal style Standard format.

Is RW-landfall-SecondSunrise aggro or combo? Seriously, this deck is just incredibly consistent.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 09:30 AM
Is RW-landfall-SecondSunrise aggro or combo? Seriously, this deck is just incredibly consistent.

Aggro-combo.

Sims
09-20-2011, 09:45 AM
They hit GSZ but the rest of the Melira persist combo is intact, so that's still a potential deck. It wasn't as fast as the U/R Combo decks, but it's playable. Twin is still playable even without the cantrips simply because it's heavily redundant. can't beat having 8 of each combo piece. Pyromancer Ascension might be playable still. Not in the storm aspect but in the stick Ascension -> chain some spells -> banefire + bolt you out of the game. Not as good without the good cantrips but it's still feasible i think.

The faster/consistent combos being gone also opens the door for Cascade-balance/living end and Eggs to step up though they are relatively glass cannon. Eggs was running some of the cantrips but no more than 4-6, they might be able to go serum visions/sleight of hand and not lose too much.

Aggro gets stronger. As said, Zoo is now very well positioned without having to worry about fast combo or post. Affinity and Jund are decks, boros and burn can now compete.

Tapout control is going to be the only way control can realistically survive. I'm thinking some kind of board control ala Pox/Deathcloud, perhaps even lorwyn/alara-esque Cruel Control.

I'm interested in this boros landfall sunrise deck. Do you have a link Maveric? or is it something you're brewing and keeping tight to the chest?

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 11:13 AM
Can one even play blue in this format?

umbowta
09-20-2011, 11:17 AM
Can one even play blue in this format?You're kidding, right? Last time I checked UR Wildfires was pretty good at beating up on aggro. Aside from that, I've got a couple of gro lists that are looking pretty good on paper. The hard part will be getting someone to test against.

Splinter Twin is far from dead.

...and CounterCat Zoo says GO BLUE too.

Fossil4182
09-20-2011, 12:56 PM
Let's face it, this format does not have a viable control archetype due to the recent B&R. While Ponder and Preordain being banned are definitely hinders control as an archetype, its also because nothing was unbanned. The "power" spells in the format for control are Clique, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce...and.... ya, that's about it.

Control will best be served in some sort of Bant or BUG shell that will emphasis aggro over control. I'm not invested in Modern (though I playtest it with my friends), but from an outsider looking in, I've never enjoyed aggro strategies. With combo being "neutered", why would I want to play in a format where Clique, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce are the defining cards for control? The problem isn't just that control is underpowered, its also not "fun" to play. Its kind of disgusting that I think casting Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and/or Bitterblossom is "fun", but I would venture there are a large number of players who enjoyed those cards and the fact they can't be used is a huge turn off.

Zombie
09-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Do you enjoy Wall of Omens=>Draw spell=>Wrath=>Elspeth 1.0?

Mr. Safety
09-20-2011, 02:41 PM
Can one even play blue in this format?

I've been playing blue since day one...and TBH, the bannings have made my BUG deck a lot less ideal. The deck was designed specifically to combat the combo in the format...now I have to switch gears and become much more dedicated to the aggro matchup. Second Engineered Explosives and more board wiping effects are in order, for sure. Possibly even Infest in the sideboard so it can hit a turn earlier than Damnation.

What I wouldn't give for a decent low-level wiper at instant speed at 3cc or less...in something besides red, lol.

phonics
09-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Cards like ponder and preordain embody a lot of what I consider magic to be, but Lapille really wants creatures to turn sideways doesn't he.

SpikeyMikey
09-20-2011, 03:48 PM
I mostly agree with Sims.

With Persist, the Pod heavy version that was on MTGO didn't run GSZ to begin with. So that version is completely unaffected by the bannings. The version I was playing with Thoughtseize and Sculler ran 4 GSZs and was already slightly behind Zoo preboard. I shored the matchup up with Spellskite and Timely Reinforcements out of board. Without GSZ, I'm slower and what was an uncomfortable Zoo matchup to begin with becomes downright bad.

I think some version of Persist will be viable, but I'm not sure how good it will be. "Viable" and "what I want to take to the tournament" aren't the same thing.

Twin, at a 7/6 split, is still over 50% to naturally draw the combo by turn 4. Even replacing Ponder and Preordain with say Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand or See Beyond leaves the deck consistent enough to win. Don't pull your Twin hate from the board just yet. The deck may have to adjust, but since the other U/R decks were completely killed and Infect is gone, it can adjust even further towards beating Zoo. Personally, I liked the heavier 8/7 split anyway, as I'm never sad to see more blue combo pieces and Kiki gets around much of the hate people bring in against you.


While I don't disagree with GSZ being banned, their stated reason is wrong. Banning GSZ will not increase the diversity of green. It will, if anything decrease the diversity as a variety of semi-midrange Zoo builds become obsolete in favor of Cat-Slighesque builds. I don't think the CFB CatFish build was ever the correct build of Zoo to begin with but I think without GSZ the deck falls apart. It relies on GSZ to act as a Noble Hierarch when the deck doesn't have 1 for turn 1 and it relies on GSZ to access Qasali Pridemage, something the deck still wants to see every game. It would require quite the balancing act for it to maintain it's current mix without the strong tutoring of Zenith.

But getting rid of GSZ does kill the best version of Persist, and with Twin weakened and the other combo decks gone, that's probably a good thing, even if they don't realize it.

honestabe
09-20-2011, 05:39 PM
Looks like they really want this format to be an eternal standard, which really sucks. I think a lot of what excited people about Modern was the chance to dust off Jace, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Scapeshift and Jitte without having to spend a million dollars playing legacy. Not that I'm complaining about legacy prices, I have duals, forces, wastes, etc. But I think WoTC's vision of modern isn't what a majority of players want, which only means doom for the format.

daugarten
09-20-2011, 06:08 PM
Looks like they really want this format to be an eternal standard, which really sucks. I think a lot of what excited people about Modern was the chance to dust off Jace, Bitterblossom, Chrome Mox, Scapeshift and Jitte without having to spend a million dollars playing legacy. Not that I'm complaining about legacy prices, I have duals, forces, wastes, etc. But I think WoTC's vision of modern isn't what a majority of players want, which only means doom for the format.

I have to disagree. The players I run into that want to play Modern are mostly new players. Personally, I'm a new player and don't have any of the older staples of Legacy, and I am unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck that I want to play most. Modern lets me choose an archetype I prefer and play it for cheap. I'm happy that Jace and friends are banned because if they were legal the best decks would likely have them in their 75. I'd rather not have to worry about buying them. Lastly, I've played against Jace and Jitte and many others before and they just don't feel fair; the game is less enjoyable.

I like playing a format that won't rotate and the cards seem very fair. I'm hoping that one day the format will be as diverse as Legacy, until then... exploring a new format (as unbalanced and evolving as Modern is) is enough for me.

To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much. I'm happy to see bannings of Cloudpost and Shoal, but Preordain/Ponder don't make sense to me. If Storm is too consistent and fast take away the Core (Storm cards) not the engine (draw spells).

DragoFireheart
09-20-2011, 06:49 PM
Lastly, I've played against Jace and Jitte and many others before and they just don't feel fair; the game is less enjoyable.

I like playing a format that won't rotate and the cards seem very fair. I'm hoping that one day the format will be as diverse as Legacy, until then... exploring a new format (as unbalanced and evolving as Modern is) is enough for me.

- Found the problem with the format.



To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much.

- You're right, they'll just run some aggro deck that hoses Zoo.

Modern: Where control is aggro control, aggro is non-cat aggro, and combo is cat/zoo-aggro.

GGoober
09-20-2011, 07:32 PM
I have to disagree. The players I run into that want to play Modern are mostly new players. Personally, I'm a new player and don't have any of the older staples of Legacy, and I am unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck that I want to play most. Modern lets me choose an archetype I prefer and play it for cheap.

Except the contrary is more true: Modern is a highly expensive format (especially since it's the format of dreaded speculators). Modern itself was solely responsible for the unnatural price hikes of Goyf/Bob/Cliques/Shocks/Groves/Blazing Shoal (lol) and much more.



To get back on topic... I think Control is going to have a much easier time putting together a list without having to worry about combo as much.

True for 12-post 'combo', but Control didn't have to worry about storm/grapeshot/EtW combo. Mindbreak Trap is just that devastating. The only issue is: control loses to aggro in Modern, and it can't beat 12-post reliable at all, hence no one plays it or does well with it in such a metagame.

perm
09-20-2011, 11:18 PM
My prediction is decks like G/W or bant midrange doing very well in the meta that will come from this

obituary 95
09-20-2011, 11:56 PM
After seeing the banned list I am going to stay out of this format. and then I will hope it dies so that overextended comes into the forfront. so that we can have a good format again.

dahcmai
09-21-2011, 01:12 AM
I figure Splinter Twin is still pretty much amazing since it lost only it's searchers and there's plenty of replacements. Not to mention, Innistrad gave it one more redundant piece to go in the combos. It's what I will be playing. To hell with Aggo, I want a combo deck that stomps on control and this is it.

Mr. Safety
09-21-2011, 10:35 AM
My prediction is decks like G/W or bant midrange doing very well in the meta that will come from this

I think Smallpox will become playable again (at least I'm going to test it out.) Decks like Modern Eva-Green and B/G Deathcloud will crop up again, too. I basically agree with you though: mid-range will be doing well, especially since it has decent match-ups vs. both aggro and control.

I'll be testing BUG control and B/G/w Smallpox control, but I may switch over to Bant if the need arises.

SpikeyMikey
09-21-2011, 05:38 PM
I figure Splinter Twin is still pretty much amazing since it lost only it's searchers and there's plenty of replacements. Not to mention, Innistrad gave it one more redundant piece to go in the combos. It's what I will be playing. To hell with Aggo, I want a combo deck that stomps on control and this is it.

I feel like the deck definitely took a hit. Losing Ponder hurt; a well-built Zoo was already a tough race. But with GSZ going out at the same time, Zoo's ability to hit you with Gaddock Teeg and Burning Tree Shaman went out the window. I'm not sure yet whether or not the slightly loss of consistency will be enough to put Zoo ahead in the race, especially since it looks like Zoo is going to have to go Cat Sligh variant to stay relevant.

Without GSZ-->Arbor to act as a stand in for Noble Hierarch on turn one, a Zoo heavy with 3 and 4 drops just isn't viable.

But yeah, I'm sticking with Splinter Twin, I think it's still the best thing going. The question is, how many other people will have figured that out? Because if everyone realizes that, I'd rather be playing something metagamed against Twin. Without GSZ, that's not Persist or Zoo though, so I'm not sure what there is out there.

mojoiskewl
09-21-2011, 11:04 PM
So its gonna be...

Zoo opens with Teeg, it wins.*

Twin opens with combo pieces no Teeg, it wins.

Seems dicey, still I would give the advantage to twin since it will still run cantrips.


*barring bolt removal shenanigans.
Feel free to substitute Teeg with Burning Tree Shaman, Ghostly Prison, Silent Arbiter, Suppression Field, your mom, whatever.

SpikeyMikey
09-21-2011, 11:20 PM
So its gonna be...

Zoo opens with Teeg, it wins.*

Twin opens with combo pieces no Teeg, it wins.

Seems dicey, still I would give the advantage to twin since it will still run cantrips.


*barring bolt removal shenanigans.
Feel free to substitute Teeg with Burning Tree Shaman, Ghostly Prison, Silent Arbiter, Suppression Field, your mom, whatever.

Problem is, without GSZ, you can't main a miser Teeg and expect to do anything with it. Same with BTS. And those cards are NOT things you want to main 4 of, as they're terrible against things that aren't Twin, most notably the mirror. And Teeg stops Twin, but it doesn't stop Kiki.

But at the same time, with worse search spells, can Twin consistently find Exarch instead of Pestermite? Because Pestermite is a dog to Zoo unless you've got the Spellskite to soak burn. And Cat Sligh can beat a lot of things just by being half a turn too fast. So we'll see.

Mr. Safety
09-22-2011, 07:21 AM
With control decks seemingly on the rise, would a U/r Faeries deck be viable in this situation? I'm thinking of doing it with just Pestermite and Splinter Twin, and leaving the Kiki-Jiki's/DE out of it altogether. It would be a more traditional faeries aggro/control deck with an 'oops I win' combo. The main reason for doing it would be for Mistbind Clique, which is pretty awesome against any kind of control/combo deck.

Rough list:

Creatures - 16
4x Spellstutter Sprite
4x Pestermite
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Mistbind Clique
3x Grim Lavamancer

Spells - 22
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Spell Snare
3x Mana Leak
4x Think Twice
4x Cryptic Command
3x Splinter Twin

Lands - 22
1x Mutavault
3x Cascade Bluffs
4x Steam Vents
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Halimar Depths
4x Island
2x Mountain

umbowta
09-22-2011, 09:33 AM
And HERE we truly have it. Carefully read the entire quote and realize that this is a PERFECT representative of the target player group for the Modern format.
Personally, I'm a new player and don't have any of the older staples of Legacy, and I am unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck that I want to play most. Modern lets me choose an archetype I prefer and play it for cheap.

I like playing a format that won't rotate and the cards seem very fair. I'm hoping that one day the format will be as diverse as Legacy, until then... exploring a new format (as unbalanced and evolving as Modern is) is enough for me.

It's brilliant, really--I've just been so hung up on the spikey side of life that I failed to realize it. WotC now has an entry level eternal format that helps keep new, casual, and standoffish players coming back for more.

Intelligent new players who realize their money is best spent in a non-rotating are often "...unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck..." and pissed off about spending alot of money for Standard cards that are just going to rotate out and lose their value. These players are likely to conclude that the best option is to quit MtG.


WotC wants people to buy MtG products. Those who quit are highly unlikely to buy product. Modern encourages new, money wise, and fair players to continue to play--and they can do it cheap. WotC increases the number of long term customers. Effin brilliant.

Conclusion: I like to play MtG. It's easier to find an opponent when more players keep playing the game. Therefore, I will play Modern (as well as all other eternal formats) and support those who, like me, wish to keep playing the game.

SpikeyMikey
09-22-2011, 09:55 AM
Intelligent new players who realize their money is best spent in a non-rotating are often "...unwilling to fork out $1000 for the Legacy deck..." and pissed off about spending alot of money for Standard cards that are just going to rotate out and lose their value.

The thing is, Modern isn't really cheaper. Steam Vents are sold out at SCG at $25/ea. SP ones are still in stock at the much more reasonable price of $24/ea. Scalding Tarns and Misty Rainforest are $16/$15. Cascade Bluffs are slightly cheaper at $15/$14. So that's $257 at SP prices for the mana base of one of the Splinter Twin decks from the PT. Let's say that eBay represents a 20% price break over SCG prices. I'm still over $200 just for lands. Cliques are $33, Pact of Negation is $19, Disrupting Shoal is $12, Kiki is $12, Spellskite is $12, etc. Splinter Twins are still reasonable at $5/ea. But otherwise, the format is retardedly expensive. Groves are $17. Tarmogoyfs are $95.

There is no such thing as a reasonably costed format. Draft is the cheapest thing going, with $15 getting you your entire deck for a tournament. Or, you know, it could get you a month of playing World of Warcraft whenever you want. Pretty sure I can get more than 3 hours out of a month of WoW.

I don't judge formats by entry costs, I judge them by whether or not they're fun. But then again, I only play on Workstation and occasionally Cockatrice.

umbowta
09-22-2011, 10:52 AM
The thing is, Modern isn't really cheaper. Steam Vents are sold out at SCG at $25/ea. SP ones are still in stock at the much more reasonable price of $24/ea. Scalding Tarns and Misty Rainforest are $16/$15. Cascade Bluffs are slightly cheaper at $15/$14. So that's $257 at SP prices for the mana base of one of the Splinter Twin decks from the PT. Let's say that eBay represents a 20% price break over SCG prices. I'm still over $200 just for lands. Cliques are $33, Pact of Negation is $19, Disrupting Shoal is $12, Kiki is $12, Spellskite is $12, etc. Splinter Twins are still reasonable at $5/ea. But otherwise, the format is retardedly expensive. Groves are $17. Tarmogoyfs are $95.

There is no such thing as a reasonably costed format. Draft is the cheapest thing going, with $15 getting you your entire deck for a tournament. Or, you know, it could get you a month of playing World of Warcraft whenever you want. Pretty sure I can get more than 3 hours out of a month of WoW.

I don't judge formats by entry costs, I judge them by whether or not they're fun. But then again, I only play on Workstation and occasionally Cockatrice.

I think you're missing my point a little, while also addressing and being an example of the point...WEIRD.

You've clearly demonstrated that there exist expensive cards in Modern. I can't resonably argue against that. However, comparing the average cost of a competitive Modern deck to those of either Legacy or Vintage will demonstrate that Modern is in fact much cheaper--despite the current price boom precipitated by speculators and lemmings. I don't think one can reasonably argue against that.

In the meantime (fun with words: meantime => me anti-me) you're guilty of the same crime I am, thus being an example of the spike who is ignoring the longterm value of Modern. Turn off the Spikey and just be Mikey for a minute...Ready?...The player group Modern benefits doesn't necessarily want to play with those expensive cards. They want to play the archetype they prefer.

ME:You and I can be Spikey all we want in Legacy and Vintage. We can also be spikey in Modern but the power level just isn't going to be there. We're going to have to get spikey with playskill, which ends up benefitting those around us who learn our tricks. It's good for the game overall.
ANTI-ME:I'm likely to lose on occasion to someone's favorite pet deck full of "suboptimal" cards and I'm gonna have to get used to it.

Mr. Safety
09-22-2011, 12:35 PM
I use www.mtgfanatic.com as a way to keep track of decks, and it is also a site that will tell you how much the deck would cost if you bought all the cards from them.

Average cost of a competitive Modern deck = $500 (if you're using Goyfs, put it at $700, but a lot of decks can be bought for $200 or less, and that's with shock-duals and fetches)

Average cost of competitive Legacy deck = $800 (again, if you're using Goyfs or Jaces it tops $1000, but you can still buy some decks fairly inexpensively like Non-LED Dredge for around $350 I think)

This isn't objective information (it comes from a site that sells cards, lol) but it has given me a rough estimate of what costs are in comparison.

I think umbowta makes a great point, which if I understand it correctly, goes like this: Modern is a format where pet decks can be used with success. I think WotC has made a really great move here, and I for one am officially on the 'modern bandwagon'. A new format is a brewer's paradise, and I'm really enjoying it.

SpikeyMikey
09-22-2011, 10:44 PM
Mmm. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it will be that way for long. There was a lot of random early on in Legacy, but the competitive decks still stood out fairly quickly. Maybe 6 months to a year before the metagame has settled into something regular. And it's unlikely it will ever be as diverse as Legacy is simply because the pool isn't there. Too many high quality threats at reasonable CMC's, not enough of the off-the-wall answers that exist in Legacy. Things like Null Rod and Pernicious Deed help keep overly aggressive strategies in check. By overly aggressive, i don't necessarily mean actual aggro, I just mean more "All In" style decks. Like the crop of stuff we saw at the PT.

But I will agree with Mr. Safety, a fresh format is a brewer's best friend. Much easier to stay ahead of the curve and get wins out of superior construction even in the face of superior playskill. Once the good players have good decks, brewers are back to trying to eek out small advantages here and there.

I take losing to suboptimal decks better than most people, depending on what I'm losing to. If it's funny or clever, I enjoy the interaction. If it's someone finding a way to cheat Emrakul into play, I hate it, only because it's a shitty Timmy card that is impossible to deal with without specifically hating on it. I shouldn't have to bring hate to beat bad decks, I should be able to beat them at least 60% of the time simply because they're bad. I don't think I'll ever learn to like that.

menace13
09-23-2011, 01:13 AM
Splinter Twin can largely get away unhindered by the bans by having 8 parts each of the combo. Playing Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, Peer Through Depths and Telling Time in the slots is fine. It can buy enough time against Zoo with Firespout main.

I think Persist Pod with Chord of Calling-possibly Pact- is the deck I would like play. Having 8 Tutors, disruption and a combo finish seems good.

2Rach
09-23-2011, 10:15 PM
However, comparing the average cost of a competitive Modern deck to those of either Legacy or Vintage will demonstrate that Modern is in fact much cheaper--despite the current price boom precipitated by speculators and lemmings.
Modern is cheaper than Legacy, but it doesn't have the long-term financial stability, and I'm not talking about speculation. The format was made specifically as an eternal format with the thought that prices can be controlled through reprints. These reprints will be coming slowly, but you don't have that smart investment that those intelligent new players will be looking for.

Mr. Safety
09-24-2011, 09:05 AM
I take losing to suboptimal decks better than most people, depending on what I'm losing to. If it's funny or clever, I enjoy the interaction. If it's someone finding a way to cheat Emrakul into play, I hate it, only because it's a shitty Timmy card that is impossible to deal with without specifically hating on it. I shouldn't have to bring hate to beat bad decks, I should be able to beat them at least 60% of the time simply because they're bad. I don't think I'll ever learn to like that.

+1

I pride myself on being a graceful loser (one thing I think I've actually mastered with magic, lol) and I agree wholeheartedly. One deck I hate to lose to is mana-ramp style decks that hardcast Eldrazis. That shit shouldn't even be on the radar screen, let alone competitive. I'm pretty sure it won't last long, but control needs to get a foothold before it goes away completely.

umbowta
09-26-2011, 01:56 PM
Modern is cheaper than Legacy, but it doesn't have the long-term financial stability, and I'm not talking about speculation. The format was made specifically as an eternal format with the thought that prices can be controlled through reprints. These reprints will be coming slowly but you don't have that smart investment
Exactly!

... that smart investment that those intelligent new players will be looking for.Not quite. I see what you did there--ascribing that sentiment unto me. That's all you.
I actually contest that the target player group for Modern is such that smart investment doesn't come into play--smart investment being defined as an investment that is highly likely to maintain or increase in value over time. They want cheap, fair,non-rotating, longterm fun. The banned list and reprints should be able to supply that.

Mr. Safety
09-26-2011, 04:08 PM
Is anyone else thinking Vedalken Shackles + Perilous Research???

SpikeyMikey
09-26-2011, 06:52 PM
Is anyone else thinking Vedalken Shackles + Perilous Research???

I'm thinking that Twin is the only thing worth playing.

Mr. Safety
09-27-2011, 07:54 AM
So the format is doomed to failure because the only deck worth playing is Splinter Twin? Yikes, that is a dire statement indeed...

SpikeyMikey
09-27-2011, 09:31 AM
Well, there's still Zoo. But I think in order to beat Twin consistently, without Green Sun's Zenith, you really need to slant your Zoo to hate on Twin. I mean, burn is still good against Twin, because it kills Pestermite and Kiki. They can't have Spellskite every game. Qasali Pridemage is still good against Splinter Twin itself. I mean, you've got answers. But since Zoo is the only real threat to Twin's existence, it's not hard for Twin to metagame against Zoo. And losing GSZ means you no longer have access to Gaddock Teeg or Burning Tree Shaman as a weapon to fight them game 1. If Blasphemous Act was an instant, I would say that would provide the format with a good answer to Twin decks, but as is... I've been trying to think of something that can stop the deck, but without maining dedicated hate, there's just nothing that beats it - without losing horribly to Zoo.

A Suicide Black style deck with Thoughtseize and IoK could beat Twin consistently, especially with the new Liliana 2.0. But a deck like that, without Dark Ritual, won't be able to get significant blockers down fast enough to stop Zoo from running it over. Obliterator is too slow, Nighthawk is slow and easily burnt out. You can load up on creature removal, pack in Go for the Throats and Doom Blades, which retain value against Twin as well, but burn heavy decks will grind you out eventually. That's the only thing I've tinkered with that feels like it has any potential. I've seen Death Cloud Rock, but it doesn't seem good enough either.

I'm not saying that Twin is unbeatable, the deck isn't as dominating as say PT Paris Academy, Columbus Flash or Standard Caw Blade pre-ban. But it's on a level with say Affinity, when that was in T2. You can beat it, but the decks that beat it don't beat anything else, really. Twin is the only thing that I feel is solidly in tier 1 at at this point.

Mr. Safety
09-27-2011, 09:46 AM
Fair enough. I've been playing zoo on MWS and I've faced several r/b aggro decks...and while they didn't roll over, they didn't do a hell of a lot either, lol.

I think the more exciting deck right now is Domain Zoo. Man, that deck is solid. Ghost Quarter is the only real problem due their lack of basic lands, but they can still own you 6 ways from sunday. I am relearning just how good Bob is in zoo.

This won't prevent me from tinkering with other decks (BUG Control, Elves Aggro) but I think you are a little too close to right when you say there really is only 2 tier 1 decks with zoo and Twin. I think Domain Zoo has good odds against Twin, tbh, so they are about on par. That's an opinion mind you, domain zoo hasn't made a showing yet (not to my knowledge.)

EDIT: Is Echoing Truth not a good answer to Splinter Twin decks? It may not be a permanent solution, it is also easily splashable in a myriad of decks.

SpikeyMikey
09-27-2011, 10:20 AM
Fair enough. I've been playing zoo on MWS and I've faced several r/b aggro decks...and while they didn't roll over, they didn't do a hell of a lot either, lol.

I think the more exciting deck right now is Domain Zoo. Man, that deck is solid. Ghost Quarter is the only real problem due their lack of basic lands, but they can still own you 6 ways from sunday. I am relearning just how good Bob is in zoo.

This won't prevent me from tinkering with other decks (BUG Control, Elves Aggro) but I think you are a little too close to right when you say there really is only 2 tier 1 decks with zoo and Twin. I think Domain Zoo has good odds against Twin, tbh, so they are about on par. That's an opinion mind you, domain zoo hasn't made a showing yet (not to my knowledge.)

EDIT: Is Echoing Truth not a good answer to Splinter Twin decks? It may not be a permanent solution, it is also easily splashable in a myriad of decks.

If you have 3 mana open so that you can do it in response to the Twin or Kiki. But that's what makes the deck so difficult to defend against. You can't play things at sorcery speed or they'll drop the first half while you're tapped down. And since the pieces tap an additional land when they come into play, you need to have mana for your answer PLUS 1 more. Which wouldn't be a huge problem if Zoo wasn't so fast. But there are no real Zoo hosers, the best thing going is Kitchen Finks which is a far cry from Moat or Humility or Glacial Chasm. And Zoo gets an additional boost against control from the difference between real duals and shock duals; they necessarily have better mana than other decks because they don't care about the drawback. Control absolutely cares about 2 life vs. Zoo. So you can't play Vendilion Clique/Snapcaster Mage.dec and do everything at the end of their turn.

Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm packing 3-4 Gigadrowse in board for Twin no matter what configuration I'm running otherwise. So if I have to wait until turn 6 or 7 so that I can Gigadrowse 3 lands and Exarch the 4th, I'm pretty ok with that. Then I can combo out at my leisure, protected with Spell Pierce, Remand or Pact for my Splinter Twin. So you *have* to keep a clock on this deck or it will just ruin your shit. But that clock needs to be dropped entirely on turn 1 and 2 so you can leave mana open to deal with the combo. Post board, you can bring in things like Suppression Field or Torpor Orb or Ghostly Prison, but those are all Pierceable and Repeal is pretty solid in Twin with Gaddock Teeg no longer a factor.

The best answer to Twin for Zoo is Burning Tree Shaman. But it sucks against everything else, and without GSZ, you'd have to main 4 to get it consistently. Also, without GSZ, playing a top-heavy Zoo is bad juju; 4 Hierarchs alone isn't enough acceleration to get to 3 mana on turn 2 to justify changing the curve from 2 heavy to 3 heavy. You need GSZ-->Arbor because adding Birds on top of Hierarchs is too many dead mid-late game draws. GSZ gave you the flexibility to accel on turn 1 or get something relevant on subsequent turns.

GSZ also made Persist relevant. I just don't think it is without it. Zoo was already a rough matchup for the deck, slowing it down another turn or 2 by forcing it to move to Chord of Calling or Fauna Shaman in conjunction with Birthing Pod just makes the Zoo matchup that much worse. You can build Persist to beat Zoo, but if you do, you lose all your disruption against Twin.

umbowta
09-27-2011, 10:38 AM
I'm thinking that Twin is the only thing worth playing.Pretty much spot on here. The only other Tier 1 netdeck in the format (currently) is Zoo. Everything else is Tier 2 or worse post bannings. I don't care though. More bannings will happen and more cards will be printed and I absolutely refuse to pay the ridiculous prices for Rav duals and the like.

I managed to pick up a Breeding Pool for $5 for UG Super Gro and I'm working on porting Hollywood's Mono Black Legacy deck The Gate into Modern. My local gamestore has announced that they'll be doing Modern FNMs twice a month soon, and I'm ready to turn off the spike for a while.

Mr. Safety
09-27-2011, 12:21 PM
So what you are saying is that if a deck is designed to beat Splinter Twin, it will most likely lose to Zoo. Splinter Twin beats zoo. Do we or do we not then have a paper, rock, scissors format where an almost overly-pure amount of balance has been achieved?

SpikeyMikey
09-27-2011, 02:15 PM
So what you are saying is that if a deck is designed to beat Splinter Twin, it will most likely lose to Zoo. Splinter Twin beats zoo. Do we or do we not then have a paper, rock, scissors format where an almost overly-pure amount of balance has been achieved?

Well, that's an excellent analysis. But whether or not other decks are viable, people are going to play with them and that's going to be the issue with any sort of Twin hate deck; it won't be all that great against random jank.dec and will therefore be a worse choice than Zoo or Twin. Meanwhile, Zoo will be popular because it's Zoo, meaning that a Zoo metagamed against Twin needs to dodge the mirror all day, a tough proposition. Twin, on the other hand, just has to metagame a little against Zoo and a little against the mirror. The powerful nature of the combo makes it good against a variety of randomness (as does Zoo's overwhelming speed). Dedicated hate decks will beat it, but dodging those will be much easier than dodging either Zoo or Twin.

So what you'll have is Affinity, Tooth and Nail and mono red (Affinity hate). Zoo, in its current form, is probably going to occupy the spot that was previously held by Cloudpost - stifling diversity in the format by creating a benchmark that decks have to be able to beat in order to be considered competitive. The difference is that control may be viable, but it will almost have to start out with a base of 4xEnsnaring Bridge or 4xGhostly Prison. Such a deck would be good against Zoo and Twin, but bad against random.dec and the combo decks that ought to be dead with the bannings (but that people won't give up) like Ascension or Persist. Anything excessively mid-rangey or that wins outside of the combat step will dodge a lot of the control cards. Still, I suppose people won't complain as much when the format has a legitimate combo, aggro and control deck.

hi-val
09-27-2011, 09:13 PM
Twin is beatable, but it takes finesse. For example, I was playing Zoo and banking on Pridemage carrying the weight - keeping a mana open to Pridemage/Bolt something seemed nice. That is, until I realized that Twin just Exarchs my untapped land at the end of my turn and goes off anyway. Thus, I'd need two or more lands.

Any instant-speed answers to Twin have to get past Dispel, which most of the decks run. Exarch EOT tapping your land, plus Dispel backup, means Twin can just sail past removal spells.

Twin also has the profound problem that, sans the good cantrips, it often just doesn't have the juice to win in time. I had this goofy-ass lategame control deck that would start Plow Undering Twin and kill with something stupid like Shriekmaw or Cruel Ultimatum. That was when Twin still had its draw spells. Now, Twin is slowed down a lot and suffers even more against decks that can mount a reasonable offense. If you think about card like Pridemage or the criminally-underplayed Seal of Primordium, Twin cannot remove those cards effectively and has to find a 2-of Kiki to make things work. That dramatically slows the deck down.

I'm totally fine with Zoo being tier-1 and other things being below it. That's the hallmark of a healthy format.

perm
09-28-2011, 12:39 AM
I'm totally fine with Zoo being tier-1 and other things being below it. That's the hallmark of a healthy format.
So it's it's the hallmark of the health of a format to have an autopilot deck be considerably better than decks that require hard decisions, creativity and thinking? Not sure I can agree with this one

hi-val
09-28-2011, 12:45 AM
With loaded responses like that, nobody wins!

perm
09-28-2011, 12:52 AM
Zoo is autopilot, not saying its less worthy of a deck to play, but I don't see the need to be polite, I'm not going to hurt the abstract concept of "zoo deck's" feelings. So because I can't hurt a deck's feelings, there's not reason not to call a spade a spade.

hi-val
09-28-2011, 12:58 AM
Then be an adult and say what you think instead of insinuating what other people think. You're doing that old question-begging gem of asking "do you still beat your wife?"

I have no problems with a deck that requires people to accurately gauge opposing threats, play out their own cards in correct order, and wins with honest-to-God combat damage being the deck to beat. I played against Zoo in a Modern tournament recently and there were plenty of decisions - do you burn out my Wall of Roots to keep your Pridemage attacking? Do you kill my Aether Vial with the same Pridemage? Do you tap out for KOTR or hold up mana for a Bolt? I've got no issue with that deck. Sometimes it gets the three-Cat draw and it feels lame to lose to, sure.

SpikeyMikey
09-28-2011, 01:44 AM
Hi-Val:

Not to put too fine of a point on this, but most people suck donkey nuts at building decks. Twin was/is no exception. The lists at the PT were pretty half-ass (not just Twin, that was most everything). LSV's highly lauded CatFish/Counter Cat whatever other name people want to throw at it was just a rehash of an old Extended Zoo. It performed well because it was CFB piloting it and none of those guys are what you'd call bad players. The GreenPost listings were going in entirely the wrong direction with Amulet of Vigor and TtB. The Persist listings, a deck that should've been one of the strongest in the field, were all based off that MTGO deck and had absolutely no disruption in what was a known combo heavy field, which is kinda silly when you consider that these are supposed to be the best of the best. All in all, it was nowhere near what a settled field would look like, although I absolutely called Twin winning the whole thing and did a pretty good job of predicting the top decks (I missed Shoal/Infect and undervalued U/R non-Twin combo slightly).

I agree that losing Ponder/Preordain was a hit to the deck. There is no question that the replacements are not as good. But honestly, Ponder and Preordain were kind of overkill anyway. That deck was so stupidly consistent at getting each half of the combo that you could've piloted it without any filter at all and still probably won half your games.

Especially in a format post Ponder/Preordain, I can't see any reason not to run an 8/7 split, cutting a lone Kiki from what you potentially could run. Also, there was and still is no excuse for running less than 4 Spellskites. They're good against the removal people are going to throw at your creature, they fit your curve excellently, they make a good early blocker/damage soak vs. Zoo, they stop the aforementioned Pridemage/Seal/whatever arti/ench/creature removal people may have, they're just all around fantastic. And if your opponent spends a PtE or 2 burn spells on it, then that's a PtE or two burn spells they're not throwing at your Exarch.

I don't run any Dispel main. It's a solid card, no question about it, but I want 4 Spell Pierce, first and foremost. I don't expect games to go on long enough for Pierce to be something my opponent can pay for except in a few odd cases here and there. I want Remand, because without Ponder and Preordain, it gives me something else I can do on turn 2 and hopefully forces my opponent into the mistake of replaying that threat again on turn 3 and tapping down so I can combo out the next turn. And finally, I want a couple of Pact of Negations. It's definitely not a 4-of, but it *does* protect the combo. At that point, I've got 9 counters (4 Pierce/3 Remand/2 Pact) and there's not much room for Dispel.

I also want Gigadrowse out of board to give myself inevitability against control decks. Sometime on turn 7 or 8, I'm going to tap a bunch of your shit, untap and cast a blue creature plus kiki while you're tapped out.

Now, can the deck still lose? Well of course. I lost games even before they banned Ponder and Preordain. Some games, you just cannot, for the life of you, find that second combo piece. All 8 of them are at the bottom of your library. Que sera, sera. But I'm more likely to lose to myself than I am to lose to anyone else. It's rare that someone comes up with the correct answers to win a match against me.

And that's without going to the idea of a semi-transformational board. I've been running Cliques in my board against control and I'm considering pulling something similar to what T2 Goblin Trenches did for postboard games (wayyyyy back when, but you were around then, I believe) where I just cut the 7 combo pieces and do something more aggressive. Let people play their Torpor Orbs or what have you, I'll just go with Taurean Maulers and Rakdos Pit Dragons and Lightning Bolts. I think with 15 cards, I could board out the 7 red combo pieces, 2 Pact of Negations, 4 Remands and 2 Spell Pierces and bring in 4 Maulers, 4 Pit Dragons, 4 Lightning Bolts and 3 Vendilion Cliques and go beatdown against non-Zoo decks. Or something along those lines. For now, my sideboard is:

4 Slagstorm
3 Gigadrowse
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Shattering Spree
2 Lightning Bolt

and I board more traditionally.

Yeah, you can beat the deck. But you can't beat it consistently without maining hate for it, because it wins G1 as often as Legacy Dredge, without being nearly as bad off G2/G3. I can't see anything knocking it off its pedestal.

On a related note, I've been tinkering around with the idea of mill as a deck simply because it dodges all Twin hate and Zoo hate. I've only played a few games with a very rough listing, and right now, it sucks monkey balls, but there *may* be potential there, but only if Twin and Zoo push out all the midrange and control strategies. The deck is too narrow to function otherwise.

mojoiskewl
09-28-2011, 04:45 AM
What were you playing hi-val? Was this post or pre banning?

Mr. Safety
09-28-2011, 07:43 AM
I played my BUG homebrew last night against what I thought was Twin...ended up being modernHiveMind.dec. I put an Explosives at 0 on turn 2...and never used it, lol. I bring that up because game 1, I hosed him with countermagic and Gifts Ungiven essentially winning me the game. Game 2 he miracle-top decks Hive Mind and casts Pact of the Titan and Pact of Negation FTW. Game 3 I stabilize at 1 life, and he can't win the game (I have Loam + Raven's Crime working overtime and I'm recurring Profane Command + Eternal Witness blocking his 4/4 Titan-token for 3-4 life a turn.) The guy wasn't even using Cryptic Commands (which surprised the HELL out of me for sure.)

While that was as fun game, jeesh, how in the world does someone win by recurring Profane Command and Eternal Witness over 7 turns? IMHO, bad deck design on the opponent's part. I think he was a decent player and he wasn't expecting control, but that's the conundrum of this goofy format. How do you sideboard against home-brew.dec? Why is the best Brainstorm-variant in the format Halimar Depths (opinion, mind you. I've been abusing it alongside Deprive, janky tech for sure.)

I have to agree with Spikey Mikey...Twin is still the best deck, not because of it's speed, but because it's so damn consisitent. I'm guessing most folks are putting all 16 combo pieces in there now (or at least 15 with 3x Kiki-Jiki) to offset the loss of the cantrips. I know I would do that if I was playing Twin. Now you can play the fast combo with Twin/Pestermite/ET or just sit on your control and slow roll into a Kiki-Jiki win. Deck is good, really good.

I am borderline rambling here, so I'll wrap this up soon: why has nobody broken Aether Vial yet? Vial hatebears seems pretty damn good right now, and I haven't seen much action in that camp. Ditto with Isochron Scepter control (which could have good odds against both zoo and twin if it's built correctly.)

SpikeyMikey
09-28-2011, 09:41 AM
I think you're not seeing vial hatebears because there's nothing to recommend it against Zoo. What do you have that's matching up with Nacatl or Tarmogoyf or KotR? You don't have the beef, you don't have Jitte or SFM to try and get some advantage, there's no Mother of Runes to give you early defense, you're just dead in the water against better aggro decks.

Stick is good. But Pridemage is a card that goes a long way towards invalidating it.

Mr. Safety
09-28-2011, 09:50 AM
Bear with me, but I think there are some really good 2-drop dudes that would go a long ways towards making Vial worthwile against zoo:

1) Coiling Oracle - card advantage, either with a draw or extra land drop
2) Sakura-Tribe Elder - the best 'fog' in the format save Kitchen Finks, this again ramps mana
3) Qasali Pridemage - just great value in a mixed format like this
4) Ambush Viper - don't even really need Vial for shenanigans
5) Lotus Cobra - solid ramp bear
6) Ethersworn Canonist - a way to keep combo in check
7) Leonin Arbiter - fetchland hoser, used alongside Ghost Quarter?

Essentially, you can play 8 'fog' creatures with Oracle/Elder so zoo can't get that early advantage with fast dudes. Ramp into Firespout/Wrath of God to clear the board. Play blue so you can have permission in the mid-game. Use a weenie-booster like Glorious or Gaea's Anthem to make your little dudes bigger, or just use Goyfs.

Playing blue, you have decent odds against Twin. Playing white gives you Wrath and Path. Playing green gives you utility dudes that can hate on your opponent.

Just a thought...

Ace/Homebrew
09-28-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm thinking that Twin is the only thing worth playing.

Been following this conversation somewhat. Seems it's either Twin or Zoo and decks geared towards beating one fail against the other. I do not have the testing in to back up my theories but Mikey and Safety will likely set me straight if I'm way off...

Soul Sisters seems like it would have positive match ups against both these decks. Against Twin you'd just need 2 sisters on board when they combo off to negate the infinite creatures they generate. Suture Priest seems like it would be a decent deterrent against generating an absurdly large amount of creatures.

Zoo dumps a lot of creatures on the board and can struggle against life gaining tactics. Serra Ascendants fly over cats and eventually Ajani's Pridemate is bigger than goyf. There are also some decent card advantage engines in Mentor of the Meek and Ranger of Eos.

Am I way off in thinking Modern Soul Sisters has a chance with the new bannings in effect?

morgan_coke
09-28-2011, 07:52 PM
Been following this conversation somewhat. Seems it's either Twin or Zoo and decks geared towards beating one fail against the other. I do not have the testing in to back up my theories but Mikey and Safety will likely set me straight if I'm way off...

Soul Sisters seems like it would have positive match ups against both these decks. Against Twin you'd just need 2 sisters on board when they combo off to negate the infinite creatures they generate. Suture Priest seems like it would be a decent deterrent against generating an absurdly large amount of creatures.

Zoo dumps a lot of creatures on the board and can struggle against life gaining tactics. Serra Ascendants fly over cats and eventually Ajani's Pridemate is bigger than goyf. There are also some decent card advantage engines in Mentor of the Meek and Ranger of Eos.

Am I way off in thinking Modern Soul Sisters has a chance with the new bannings in effect?

I agree, and I've been working on merging GhaziGlare, the various w/x token decks, and Soul Sisters together for that very purpose.

SpikeyMikey
09-28-2011, 10:48 PM
Been following this conversation somewhat. Seems it's either Twin or Zoo and decks geared towards beating one fail against the other. I do not have the testing in to back up my theories but Mikey and Safety will likely set me straight if I'm way off...

Soul Sisters seems like it would have positive match ups against both these decks. Against Twin you'd just need 2 sisters on board when they combo off to negate the infinite creatures they generate. Suture Priest seems like it would be a decent deterrent against generating an absurdly large amount of creatures.

Zoo dumps a lot of creatures on the board and can struggle against life gaining tactics. Serra Ascendants fly over cats and eventually Ajani's Pridemate is bigger than goyf. There are also some decent card advantage engines in Mentor of the Meek and Ranger of Eos.

Am I way off in thinking Modern Soul Sisters has a chance with the new bannings in effect?

Soul Sisters isn't a bad idea. I talked to a guy on MWS who was talking about it. I haven't seen it to judge its effectiveness but it's still relatively vulnerable to Bolt and Firespout/Slagstorm out of the board; Auriok Champion is the only one that dodges removal. But yeah, it might work.

hi-val
09-29-2011, 01:59 AM
I think that deck comes down to whether you can make Ranger of Eos hit at an appreciable time. Ranger gets Forge-Tender to stop Firespouts and Serra Ascendants to actually win the game. But hey, that's turn 4 at the earliest, and you've got to do the math to figure if you actually have time to spend on that. Useful mana acceleration can be hard to come by in this format!

mojoiskewl: Melira/Birthing Pod!

Mr. Safety
09-29-2011, 09:58 AM
You have Gift of Estates and Knight of the White Orchid available in white for mana acceleration, or you can use Mind Stone or Everflowing Chalice if it suits your deck.

The only thing to really worry about is whether or not folks will still be bringing Kavu Predator/Grove of the Burnwillows/Oust/Punishing Fire to the table. There were several naya colored zoo-ish decks that did that at PT-Philly. Kavu Predator laughs at life gain, and Fire/Groves wrecks your weenie plan pretty bad. I don't think the deck is rampant, but it's out there.

Sims
09-29-2011, 01:28 PM
I'm going to jump on Doug's bandwagon here. Zoo and Twin might be the Tier 1, and I am okay with that, but I don't believe that the rest of the metagame can be completely written off. There are plenty of powerful decks that can be expanded from their type 2/1.x days with new cards in the pool ontop of possibly straight new decks that might be lurking waiting for an adventurous brewer to come up with.

From my testing and gameplay experience, I don't think Melira/Pod (persist, whatever you want to call it) is as bad as people here have been knocking on it for. I've been playing the thing in legacy tournaments and doing well with it using one of the Survival-esque lists with Chord of Calling and Pod using the 24-point list from the PT as a base. I think that deck had a strong shot at T8 if the player had done better in the limited portion of the event.

Against Zoo; You have Wall of Roots that acts as both a huge road block and mana accelerant. Kitchen Finks stabalizes life totals to keep you above lethal burn-out range, and you run sacrifice outlets that allow you to kill your own Creatures to save them from being Path'd so you can pull up Eternal Witness/Entomber Exarch or whatever recursion method you prefer to get them back later on. You've got discard that is relevant against their threats and removal as well as being able to bring your own Paths in for their larger threats.

Against Twin: Discard is relevant, though I'm aware they have 8 copies of each combo piece. You can play Teeg to slow them down as well as being able to board into Burning Tree Shaman, which sits in a comfortable space on your curve for Pod. The deck i'm running does splash white, so I could also (in theory) run ghotly prisons out of the board as well as Supression Field and just win the old fashioned way by turning my creatures sideways.

Against randomness- The fact that I have an inherent combo finish gives me an edge against a lot of random decks, because they don't have relevant ways of interacting with my combo or preventing me from searching up pieces I need. The deck is not the end all of Modern, and I'm not suggesting that it is. I do, however, think the deck is strong and has room for development but most people are dismissing it outright because of the loss of Green Sun. To be honest, even if it was legal, I'm not sure I'd run a full boat of Green Suns in my deck as it stands now.

Koby
09-29-2011, 01:52 PM
There was an old Extended deck that featured W/b/r life gain elements. It also utilized Emeria Sky Ruins to provide late game advantage. In addition, it used Necrotic Sliver for versatile removal.

here's the last list:
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Descendant of Kiyomaro
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Martyr of Sands
1 Necrotic Sliver
3 Ranger of Eos

4 Castigate
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Phyrexian Arena
2 Temporal Isolation
1 Day of Judgment
2 Wrath of God

4 Arid Mesa
1 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
7 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin

Sideboard
3 Celestial Purge
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Deathmark
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Obviously we can update the list, but maybe this deck has some merit.

Admiral_Arzar
09-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Splash red for Lightning Helix and Ajani Vengeant. I remember getting crushed by such a deck before they butchered extended.

Mr. Safety
09-29-2011, 02:19 PM
@Sims: I agree...the conundrum for me is the unsettled format. It's just too damn new. I've been working a BUG control list with mixed results since Modern was announced, and it did really well against everything but 12-Post. Enter: new bannings. Now the deck is even better.

There are a few cards that are criminally underplayed in the format (IMHO):

1) Deprive - why pass up the chance to play Counterspell? It returns a land, but that isn't too much of a hindrence. Halimar Depths works very nicely with this counterspell and both are firmly (and conveniently) rooted in blue.

2) Raven's Crime - this card is just nuts when you are top-decking land or playing Loam (like myself.)

3) Stillmoon Cavalier - protection from all but the red playable removals. I can't figure out why folks haven't started using Sword of A & B with this guy (take your pick...) Built in pump and evasion for a small mana investment.

4) Honor of the Pure - you can go tokens with this or just use it in a powerful white weenie deck. Valid PW's at 4 and 5 mana with both Elspeths and Ajani Goldmane. Hell, even kithkin could be great with this card in the mix.

5) Aether Vial - I've already spoken of this, I'm still shaking my head at the lack of play...

6) Isochron Scepter - ditto, same as Vial

SpikeyMikey
09-29-2011, 04:04 PM
I'm going to jump on Doug's bandwagon here. Zoo and Twin might be the Tier 1, and I am okay with that, but I don't believe that the rest of the metagame can be completely written off. There are plenty of powerful decks that can be expanded from their type 2/1.x days with new cards in the pool ontop of possibly straight new decks that might be lurking waiting for an adventurous brewer to come up with.

From my testing and gameplay experience, I don't think Melira/Pod (persist, whatever you want to call it) is as bad as people here have been knocking on it for. I've been playing the thing in legacy tournaments and doing well with it using one of the Survival-esque lists with Chord of Calling and Pod using the 24-point list from the PT as a base. I think that deck had a strong shot at T8 if the player had done better in the limited portion of the event.

Against Zoo; You have Wall of Roots that acts as both a huge road block and mana accelerant. Kitchen Finks stabalizes life totals to keep you above lethal burn-out range, and you run sacrifice outlets that allow you to kill your own Creatures to save them from being Path'd so you can pull up Eternal Witness/Entomber Exarch or whatever recursion method you prefer to get them back later on. You've got discard that is relevant against their threats and removal as well as being able to bring your own Paths in for their larger threats.

Against Twin: Discard is relevant, though I'm aware they have 8 copies of each combo piece. You can play Teeg to slow them down as well as being able to board into Burning Tree Shaman, which sits in a comfortable space on your curve for Pod. The deck i'm running does splash white, so I could also (in theory) run ghotly prisons out of the board as well as Supression Field and just win the old fashioned way by turning my creatures sideways.

Against randomness- The fact that I have an inherent combo finish gives me an edge against a lot of random decks, because they don't have relevant ways of interacting with my combo or preventing me from searching up pieces I need. The deck is not the end all of Modern, and I'm not suggesting that it is. I do, however, think the deck is strong and has room for development but most people are dismissing it outright because of the loss of Green Sun. To be honest, even if it was legal, I'm not sure I'd run a full boat of Green Suns in my deck as it stands now.

The problem is, without Green Sun's Zenith, you lose your ability to consistently combo on turn 4. Birthing Pod is a turn 3 card. So is Fauna Shaman. Chord of Calling is as slow or slower. It doesn't affect the deck's ability to go off, but it affects the speed. With Green Sun's Zenith, I was running 7 discard (4 Thoughtseize/3 Sculler) plus Path to Exile and still going off on turn 4; I had a good chance of simply racing Twin and the disruption to get ahead. Now, you're necessarily slower, but there are still plenty of turn 4 combo decks out there, even with the loss of Rite of Flame and Ponder/Preordain. You could maybe run a tightened Pod list and fit in the discard and/or the removal, but your speed has gone down by a full turn or two. And I'm not excited about turn 6 combo.

You are right. There will be other decks out there. There was more in the format than just Tooth and Nail, Affinity and RDW when Mirrodin was in Standard the first time. But those were the only decks of real consequence. The random stuff out there just serves to cement the lead of Twin and Zoo. IMO. I could be wrong, there could be something else that's the real deal. If burn had access to 8 Blasts like it does in 1.5, I'd say it could be a contender.

Mr. Safety
10-03-2011, 12:17 PM
If burn had access to 8 Blasts like it does in 1.5, I'd say it could be a contender.

Guttural Response and Snapcaster Mage? I jest...

Mr. Safety
10-19-2011, 04:19 PM
Bump...I've been having some conversations with some of my friends, and we've been talking about the best counterspells in modern.

This is my (argument starting) list that I shared with my friends:

Deprive
Mana Leak
Rune Snag
Cryptic Command
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce


I put Deprive at the top, simply for the synergy with Halimar Depths and the ability to have a hard counter. I think Spell Snare is still really strong, and Cryptic Command is only #3 due to mana cost (Rune Snag and Mana Leak are roughly even IMHO.) Most of the argument was centered around not including Remand in that list. I think Remand outside of combo is not so great.

Thoughts? What are the playable/best counterspells in modern?

4eak
10-19-2011, 04:39 PM
I think you have an unholy hardon for Deprive and Halimar Depths, hehe. I'm not convinced by the card. Assuming we are generalizing, deprive is at the bottom of that list, not the top. I am not convinced Rune Snag is that great either. The card is a far cry from Mana Leak in my experience.

Remand is not a great dedicated control card, I grant, but it is anywhere from acceptable to great in many aggro-control variants. My generic list for dedicated control:

Mana Leak
Cryptic Command
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Rune Snag
Flashfreeze
Spellstutter Sprite
Dissipate


peace,
4eak

Mr. Safety
10-20-2011, 08:04 AM
I think you have an unholy hardon for Deprive and Halimar Depths, hehe. I'm not convinced by the card. Assuming we are generalizing, deprive is at the bottom of that list, not the top. I am not convinced Rune Snag is that great either. The card is a far cry from Mana Leak in my experience.

Remand is not a great dedicated control card, I grant, but it is anywhere from acceptable to great in many aggro-control variants. My generic list for dedicated control:

Mana Leak
Cryptic Command
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Rune Snag
Flashfreeze
Spellstutter Sprite
Dissipate


peace,
4eak

Deprive is the unholy love-child of Counterspell and Daze. And yeah, I have the weirdest boner right now...

SpikeyMikey
10-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Spell Pierce
Mana Leak - Remand - Cryptic Command
Pact of Negation
Disrupting Shoal - Rune Snag
Everything else

Mr. Safety
11-09-2011, 09:55 AM
I would reorder my counterspells given recent testing, but I still feel Deprive is playable and good.

Spell Pierce
Mana Leak
Cryptic Command
Spell Snare
Deprive
Everything else

Currently using: 4x Mana Leak, 3x Deprive, 2x Spell Snare. Three or four Spell Pierces in the sideboard (still trying to figure out the right mix.)

Intet's Attendant
11-09-2011, 11:53 AM
There was an old Extended deck that featured W/b/r life gain elements. It also utilized Emeria Sky Ruins to provide late game advantage. In addition, it used Necrotic Sliver for versatile removal.

here's the last list:
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero
2 Descendant of Kiyomaro
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Martyr of Sands
1 Necrotic Sliver
3 Ranger of Eos

4 Castigate
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Phyrexian Arena
2 Temporal Isolation
1 Day of Judgment
2 Wrath of God

4 Arid Mesa
1 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
7 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin

Sideboard
3 Celestial Purge
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Deathmark
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Obviously we can update the list, but maybe this deck has some merit.

I feel as though this deck wants some kind of recursion outside of Emeria. No Proclamation of Rebirth to combo with Martyr? How about Reveillark to bring back Necrotic Sliver? Maybe even Debtor's Knell - or is that too expensive?