[Deck] U/R Delver

[Beatusnox]

Hello all,

Before the deck list or anything else, I would like to preface this by saying thank you to all of the people of this webstite who have helped shaped the basic shell, and given card suggestions to make this deck as strong as it is. Without you it would still be the random crap I thought of at 2 Am after work.

Special Thanks to Kich for agreeing to help with matchup analysis.
The original Deck list.

//Creatures
4 Delver of secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim lavamancer
4 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion clique

//Plansewalkers
2 Jace the Mind sculptor

//Instant
4 Lightning bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

//Instant/Sorcery(cards that can be changed amongst each other)
4 Ponder/Stifle(meta dependant)

//Lands
4 Volcanic island
4 Scaldng Tarn
6 Island
6 Mountains
4 Wasteland


This was the list I originally tested. After play testing and discussion on these boards, we have figured out a basic shell for the deck. These are the cards that given no budget concerns or lack of cards, that should appear in all versions of the deck.


//Creature: 11-12
4 Delver of Secrets
3-4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster mage

//Instant: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

//Lands: 8
4 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
//Core Total: 27-28 cards


This list here is the core to the deck whether or not you are playing a more aggro approach with more creatures, a control version with JTMS and force of will, or more burn with Price of progress and Chain Lightning.

Another thing that has come up through testing and has been discussed here is the mana base. I believe that a more basics approach is the better route, this is not yet proven and in fact arguably false. The two Mana Bases that are being considered right now are:

//Option one with variance on the fetches or basics.
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
4 Mountain
// Or Option 2 with less basics and a heavier Fetch Base With variance again on exact number or specific fetches
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding tarn
4 Polluted Delta
4Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain


Now this leaves a Large amount a deck space to building around your meta.

After assembling the core of the deck and the Mana Base, you are going to have a lot of room left over So down here I am going to make a list of 'goodstuffs' that can be added in the blank spots to make up the deck of your choice. One of the great things about the deck so far is that after the 'base' you have a lot of room to customize it to how you would like to play, at least until it is more thoroughly tested and proven.

Goodstuffs: This list will grow as more and more cards are proven in different builds if you suggest a card and it is not listed here, no disrespect intended, I just haven't had the chance to test it or add it to the thread yet.
First up Goblin Guide. This card is amazing in the more aggro based lists. A hasty 2/2 for :r: with almost no drawback. The aggro it provides can be ridden to a victory if protected, or even be a sponge for removal before you drop Delver. Recommended for the Aggro Control, and Aggro-burn Variants.

Next we have Vendilion Clique. While many times this card does not see play in the main deck of many decks it is a power house card. A 3/1 for :1::u::u: with flying, flash, and the ability to cycle either a card from your own hand, or a problematic card from an opponents hand. Recommended for the Control Builds only.

Not to be outdone we have Jace, The Mind Sculptor. I Do not think I need to describe the raw power of this card. As legacy players we know just how powerful the card is and just what kind of craziness it is capable of. Recommended for the Control Builds and Aggro-Control Builds. It is far far too slow for the Burn setups.

Continuing the Trend of good Bluestuffs we have Force of Will. While some would consider it a necessity, it is becoming more and more apparent that is not the case. In a more burn Centric Build it takes up slots that could be better filled. However, In Aggro-Control, Counter-Burn and Control Variants, it should be the first (or second after jace) card considered.

C-c-c-c-combo breaker time for a red card Price of Progress In reality this card should be the first red card considered to be added in the Burn variants. In the current meta Mana bases are getting greedier making this card more and more desirable. Recommended for the Burn, and Counter-Burn Variants.

Enough of the funny titles I'm not that creative Surgical Extraction. One of the most abusable cards with Snapcaster mage, the ability to use it once on a nasty card that your opponents use, and to then be able to flash it back is monstrous. In some of the decks that are popular they are very light on threats 2-4 different threats in the entire deck, Removing all copies of two of them, from one copy of the card is an amazing utility(this is the only non-:u: or :r: card on the list of goodstuffs. Recommended for the Mainboard of Control Variant and to be considered in the sideboard for ALL variants.

Chain Lightning. The burn spell of choice after Lightning Bolt and Price of Progress. Self Explanatory. (aka I dunno what else to say here) Recommended for the Burn and Counter-Burn Variants.

Daze. A Free Counterspell is always good. Recommended for the Control, Counter-Burn, and Aggro-Control Variants.

Magma Jet. A filter spell that also is a burn spell. This is a win win Situation. Recommended for the Burn, Counter-Burn and Aggro-Control Variants.

Ponder. A good filter spell or shuffle effect if needed. Recommended for the Control Variant, as magma jet is better for the burn, counter-burn and Aggro-Control Variant

Stifle. Great against storm and extremely greedy mana bases.

Spell Pierce. Another Control/aggro-control card. Also possibly the counter-burn builds. Weaker than daze the first time, stronger the second due to being cheaper to flash with snapcaster.

Spell Snare. Counters CMC 2. In the current Meta 2 costs are powerful, Counters opposing snapcasters and stops goyfs, confidants, Burning Wish, Tutors, etc etc. Just an insanely powerful card in the Control/Aggro-control, Possibly also in the counter-burn styles.

Repeal. Utility Bounce spell. Great for bouncing problematic small cards or even tokens. Card Draw is a plus, and can be draw a card for :u: if it comes to it. Recommended for the Control and Aggro-Control Variants, until further testing proves it better elsewhere.

I will post a sample decklists shortly, I would like those who have suggested the different variants to post what they think would be a optimal list for the style they like, and I will post it here with Credit Given to Originators, Also Match Up analysis to Follow soon, More testing is being done before I post anything definitive in that field.

Control Variant Sample Decklist: Featuring more Basics Mana Base By Beatusnox

//Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

//Plansewalkers:2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Instant: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
2 Repeal

//Sorcery:3
3 Ponder

//Lands:20
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Mountain
//Deck Total: 60


Counter-Burn Variant Thanks to Troopatropp Featuring the less basics more fetches mana base.


//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Instant/ Sorcery: 29
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Lands: 19
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
//Deck Total: 60


Burn Variant Thanks to Kich867 Featuring a Hybrid of both Mana bases

//Creatures: 10
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 30
4 Brainstorm
3 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Magma Jet
3 Ponder
2 Chain of Vapor

//Lands: 20
4x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
5x Mountain
3x Island

Remember that Sample lists are only samples. This is still a very new Archetype so the kinks are being worked out and optimal lists have not yet been established. It is just to give you a jumping post to start from, as this thread continues to grow the lists will become firmer and firmer. Outside of Playtesting, any tournament reports made of this deck(any variant), Will be posted and Credit Given to whoever it was, no matter how well you placed. Going over tournament reports that have mistakes that are pointed out helps others grow to avoid those mistakes and it helps designers of the deck try to find ways to shore up any holes and weaknesses either through main deck fixes or sideboard cards.



Well Placing Decklists: The lists here are proven to perform well in a competitive environment.

//First Place Starcity Games St. Louis Piloted by Andrew Shrout

//Creatures 14
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Instant: 21
2 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt

//Sorcery: 7
3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

//Lands:18
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island



//Second Place Starcity Games Invitational Piloted by Adam Prosak

//Creatures: 14
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

//Instant: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
1 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Fire/Ice

//Sorcery: 9
3 Gitaxian Probes
2 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

//Lands: 19
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island


Both of these Lists were piloted through an extremely competitive meta. I will add more later have to get up in about 4 hours for work <_<
Thanks again for all the help to everyone.

[TkDodo]

Looks like a Standard Tempo list for me, except that you
.) left out the third color, which is not bad, because you get a much more stable mana base
.) therefore loose Goyf and Mongoose and replace them with Goblin Guide
.) have at least some things going for a lategame in the form of Jace

Now I don't think you can play the "stick a threat and then play the permission game with Wasteland, Stifle and Daze" if your threat happens to be Goblin Guide, because they will just draw into more lands quicker. Maybe you just need a little more burn to give you more reach to finish them off quicker, because you have no way of beating Goyf or KotR once they resolve. So your gameplan should be to not let that happen by delaying their strategy and killing them before that happens, which makes you actually a tempo deck. I don't think you can play control without a way to beat creatures with toughness 4 or greater.

Also, I don't get why you would play 24 (twenty four!) lands. That's the amount of lands a pure control deck with 4 Jace and other mana intensive threats would play. You are two-colors only and have a lot of basics, so you can't get color screwed that often. Oh and Wasteland are a must in such a deck btw. The color issue you mentioned can be neglected completely. It's just 4 colorless sources in a two color deck. People play 21 lands in a deck that needs BB, G and UU and they can support 4 Wastelands as well. You also need more fetches, at least 8 to make Brainstorm more effective and to make sure you don't flood too often. I don't think that you ever want more than 4 lands in play, but with your mana base, if you don't kill them early, you will wind up with way too many lands. I would play something like that:

[21 Lands]

4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
2 Mountain


That gives you at least 3 more spots for things like Fire/Ice or Chain Lightning or such.

[troopatroop]

Price of Progress + Snapcaster Mage is U/R is Legacy right now. Delver too obv, but I like the "burn" approach.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Mountain

Hasn't really let me down yet. I can beat Midrange easily with PoP + Snappy, and Aggro with Burn + Grim. With everyone looking at Red, wondering where the 2 drop is, look no further. Combo is good against me with this build, but I figure to hell with it. It's not worth running Force of Will over Fireblast in this deck, and our clock is respectable. It's really remarkable how good this decks' turn 4's and 5's are. With Counterbalance almost completely out of the picture, and with Tempo decks sporting Delver, Burn is as good as it's ever been. Board for Combo, pray you beat randomness, and Price good decks for the win. It's strangely brutal...

[Beatusnox]

I am considering changing the title to U/R Snapcaster and listing both the more burn centric and control centric versions. What are you guys opinions on that? Also I agree that we are land heavy but disagree on more fetces i understand they make brainsorm better but strength against moons and stifles is a huge key(at least in my area) maybe in the main post will put the both versions for meta variance?

[Antonius]

perhaps you could find the middle road? Light 'em up burn + Force of Will & Stifle? Cutting Daze seems acceptable, given that its a nonbo with your snatch master. You should definitely run Fire/Ice. Also, some number of Magma Jets in exchange for some number of Ponders might be hot.

[Kich867]

That's interesting, I actually just a few nights ago built a very similar list after a friend pointed out that the White in my R/W/U list wasn't doing much for me.

//Creatures: 10
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 28
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
2x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Magma Jet

22 Land

That may or may not be 100% accurate, I'm just doing it off memory..

After some play testing, it basically boiled down to this: Prioritize countering their threats over burning them, burn things that will be big later early on, save burns for things that aren't that big and won't grow later, use burns EOT.

I was somewhat astonished to find out that Chain Lightning was not in fact an instant (legit didn't know that until I built the deck haha).

My list is a very Counter-burn style list, but I'm quite influenced by the way more burn oriented lists that I'm seeing. I'd recommend running fewer duals and more basics in the PoP lists, if you don't run counterspell and you have no double color requirements (which is true) there seems to be no reason not to run more basics and just fetch as necessary for them.

If I had to run it, I'd run something like Troopatroop's list, get some more basics in there, and try and fit 2-3 Magma Jet's somewhere. I'd probably drop Ponder's for them. I'd rather have instant speed filter that does damage, ponder would be grabbing burn's anyways. In my experience with the list I posted, Magma Jet was phenomenal every time I cast it. I was excited to see it and extensively used it with a Brainstorm follow-up. Nothing quite like EOT turn 3 Magma Jet -> bottom deck 2 cards you don't want > brainstorm. It gives you the opportunity to dig hard and a little more precision over what's on top of your deck (not a fan of shuffling with Ponder, we already have enough shuffle from fetches).

I agree that wastelands seem iffy, I'd rather win than slow them down. Wastelands slow down an otherwise very fast deck--it would hurt to not be able to sac double mountains to fireblast because we have a wasteland on the table.

Troopatroop, do you just play your list super aggressively? Do you burn creatures at all or just to the dome?


PS -- Troopatroop am I just horribly dumb or is the list you posted only 51 cards, I count 35 spells and 16 lands. Given that's the case, just run a 3/3 split of Magma Jet and Ponder, then it's just an absurd win/win.


On a side-note, can we please call this deck Snap-Crackle-Pop (Snapcaster, Lightning Bolt / Chain Lightning, Price of Progress)? :laugh: It seems way too fitting.

--- Edit:

This is the list inspired by troopa that I just made:
//Creatures: 10
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells: 30
4x Brainstorm
3x Fireblast
4x Price of Progress
3x Spell Pierce
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Magma Jet
3x Ponder
2x Chain of Vapor (could be Echoing Truth as well)

20x Land (With such a low curve I saw no reason to run 22 lands)

Maindeck bounce seemed viable, I'm not sure which I'd run, probably Echoing Truth just for the sheer utility of it. It hoses lots of token generation, multiple goyfs / delvers, enchantments and artifacts mainboard that would give us problems like Energy Field.

[Beatusnox]

Right now i am on my phone so its a pain to edit the op tomorrow when I get out of work I should be able to use a computer fix a more comprehensive op. I think ponder for magma jet. Daze for fire/ice cut wastelands for 4 more fetches.

For a sideboard we could transform into either more control or more burn for matchups the control is not needed. Using price of progress and chain lightning to burn harder. While if more control is needed bring in spell pierce or snare and maybe flusterstorm depending on meta. Definitel surgical xtractions and tormods.

[Kich867]

Right now i am on my phone so its a pain to edit the op tomorrow when I get out of work I should be able to use a computer fix a more comprehensive op. I think ponder for magma jet. Daze for fire/ice cut wastelands for 4 more fetches.

For a sideboard we could transform into either more control or more burn for matchups the control is not needed. Using price of progress and chain lightning to burn harder. While if more control is needed bring in spell pierce or snare and maybe flusterstorm depending on meta. Definitel surgical xtractions and tormods.

I feel the sideboard should be mostly dedicated to combo. Mindbreak Trap, flusterstorm, with a selection of graveyard hate (probably surgical since it's flexible), that leaves 2 flex-spots depending on your meta.

[tsabo_tavoc]

This is the decklist I am starting to playtest. The only MUs I can think of that will suffer from adding blue are against Tempo decks (Stifle + Wasteland). However, normal Burn is not favored against Tempo either. Any idea to improve this MU?

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Spell Pierce
4 Price of Progress
3 Magma Jet
1 Daze

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vent
2 Island
3 Mountain

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Flusterstorm

[Kich867]

This is the decklist I am starting to playtest. The only MUs I can think of that will suffer from adding blue are against Tempo decks (Stifle + Wasteland). However, normal Burn is not favored against Tempo either. Any idea to improve this MU?

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Spell Pierce
4 Price of Progress
3 Magma Jet
1 Daze

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vent
2 Island
3 Mountain

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Flusterstorm

Just out of curiosity what's the singleton steam vent for over volcanic island? I believe the goal against tempo would be to hopefully be able to fetch for basics and ride on those. Play around stifle, they'll keep mana open to stifle if they've got it, just keep playing lands and waiting them out, sculpt a solid hand, the moment they tap out, start cracking those fetches.

I just noticed that we've developed somewhat of a core to the deck, there's about 4-6 flex spots depending on whether you run 19, 20, or 21 land (22 seems like way too much).

Our lists only differ in that where I have ponder and bounce you run Force of Will. My deck doing that would run 19 blue cards, I would keep a singleton echoing truth over daze. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm almost not even sure what I would be willing to ditch to force of will, I don't want to drop a snappy, a delver, or a brainstorm to force.

Something about having 10 card filters feels solid, we'll always have business, I feel like Force (from playtesting in my previous list) frequently makes you pitch Brainstorm to it since the other cards are too important, which means down the line when you need more stuff, you're not finding it.

[from Cairo]

Two cards that seem to me like they could have interesting application in this archetype are Repeal and Gut Shot. Repeal give you a great option against Batterskull especially, but it can buy some good time against 1 drops too, returning a Nacatl or Aether Vial or something. Being able to flash it back in the late game seems like it could be pretty good to. It seems noticeably weaker on the draw though, when you're behind a mana.

Gut Shot just seems awesome against Legacy agro - Lackey, Grim, Mother of Runes, Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, Dryad Arbor, unflipped Delver of Secrets. It allows you to be aggressive and keep your opponent's tempo in check. It also gives your Snapcaster Mage an earlier target. Maybe it's more a SB card against Maverick and RUG Tempo, but it seems like it has decent application versus many archetypes.

Fire//Ice strikes me as better than Magma Jet in the control lists. Considering it's ability to pitch to FoW, being able to ping off multiple targets and the Ice ability is more relevant with a lesser clock.

Just a couple cards that seemed like they might fit the strategy.

[Beatusnox]

I am currently testing the control version and while its only goldfishing lately, i hav an average turn 4.5 win through aggro/burn. While before snapcaster, pitcing brainstorm to force was totally unattractive now that snapcaster exists is less of a problem. I am still working atm when i get home i will fix the op and list a basic core. Both land bases and a list of good stuffs to be considered in the flex slots...... So basicaly a real primer lol.

[Kich867]

If you need any help let me know, I've been playing the deck on Cockatrice with good results.

[Beatusnox]

If you need any help let me know, I've been playing the deck on Cockatrice with good results.

Which version are you testing? The more burn centric or control centric? If burn centric please post match up analysis as I am playing the more control based list.

[Kich867]

I had been testing my original list, I need to build the more burn centric one, but I trust Troopatroop's assertion. My original list was much more similar to a counterburn suite. It was slower to win but still consistent.

[Beatusnox]

Any help you could give is greatly appreciated. Work lately is making it harder and harder to actively test all variants in any kind of depth.

Thank you.

[Kich867]

I'm rather packed this weekend, but moving into next week (so probably around wednesday or thursday) I'll have my playtesting partner build all of the current DTB's and we'll play a few Bo3's with them. I'll try and build my controly version more like yours and I'll play a more burn centric one against them as well and write some stuff up.

So hopefully I'll have some stuff by friday or saturday.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Just out of curiosity what's the singleton steam vent for over volcanic island? I believe the goal against tempo would be to hopefully be able to fetch for basics and ride on those. Play around stifle, they'll keep mana open to stifle if they've got it, just keep playing lands and waiting them out, sculpt a solid hand, the moment they tap out, start cracking those fetches.

I just noticed that we've developed somewhat of a core to the deck, there's about 4-6 flex spots depending on whether you run 19, 20, or 21 land (22 seems like way too much).

Our lists only differ in that where I have ponder and bounce you run Force of Will. My deck doing that would run 19 blue cards, I would keep a singleton echoing truth over daze. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm almost not even sure what I would be willing to ditch to force of will, I don't want to drop a snappy, a delver, or a brainstorm to force.

Something about having 10 card filters feels solid, we'll always have business, I feel like Force (from playtesting in my previous list) frequently makes you pitch Brainstorm to it since the other cards are too important, which means down the line when you need more stuff, you're not finding it.

That lone Steam Vent is for Extirpate effects, which may not be necessary.

I like the idea of a bounce spell, and as suggested from Cairo, Repeal is a very good candidate. The 1-of Daze is there to make your opponent playing around it.

Force of Will is still the king against combo and other key-spell decks. I would happily pitch Snapcaster Mage in early games, Delver if I suspect removals, Brainstorm if I have a threat dense hand, Spell Pierce against a spell-light deck, or ANY card if I would lose otherwise. In a meta full of decks with redundancy (Mavs, Thresh, Zoo), Force of Will is indeed very weak.

Playing cautiously does not turn the Thresh matchup around. I wonder if SB Submerge is what the deck wants.

[troopatroop]

Force of Will is still the king against combo and other key-spell decks. I would happily pitch Snapcaster Mage in early games, Delver if I suspect removals, Brainstorm if I have a threat dense hand, Spell Pierce against a spell-light deck, or ANY card if I would lose otherwise. In a meta full of decks with redundancy (Mavs, Thresh, Zoo), Force of Will is indeed very weak.

Right. At some point, we run out of "great" cards for this deck, because we're only two color. Force would be another great card to add, but it does NOT fit in with a burn oriented list, because going -1 in cards is fundamentally bad for the 7 card combo deck. Magma Jet really doesn't appeal to me at all, and I find Ponder to be much better.

Gut Shot, Searing Blaze, Spell Snare, Repeal, Echoing Truth, Fire,and Dismember, are the cards I'm mainly looking at. Goblin Guide is another creature that could be necessary, but I've hated using him against a Brainstorm deck. I wish I had more time to test!

[Beatusnox]

I work again tonight when I get home I will update the thread for more goodstuffs and a sample of the control version.

[troopatroop]

My snap at a Fow+Daze build. It actually looks pretty solid :P


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire


You could tweak the manabase a bit, and it's actually strangely challenging designing a two color manabase without Wasteland. I like the 2x basic Island for a few reasons. It's a great turn 1 Leadoff with Delver, It helps us against Wasteland, we're playing 4x PoP+Snapcaster!, and you'll usually see a cantrip to shuffle the Island away when you naturally draw one if it's bad. 19 solid lands and 7 cantrips. This deck is the most consistant... ever? I dunno, but it's super annoying to play against. I thought my Ooze combo build would wreck it, but we've split the games. Price of Progress is an absolutely absurd card, which Snapcaster only makes better. I could Duress it away from him, but he often found another one and went (Eot Price for 6-8, Untap Snapcaster->Price for 6-8, GG). I was wrong about Force to an extent, because here we actually have a 2 card combo from turn 4 on in Legacy now. Delver puts them into range so nicely too! ;D cheers...

[Beatusnox]

My snap at a Fow+Daze build. It actually looks pretty solid :P


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire


You could tweak the manabase a bit, and it's actually strangely challenging designing a two color manabase without Wasteland. I like the 2x basic Island for a few reasons. It's a great turn 1 Leadoff with Delver, It helps us against Wasteland, we're playing 4x PoP+Snapcaster!, and you'll usually see a cantrip to shuffle the Island away when you naturally draw one if it's bad. 19 solid lands and 7 cantrips. This deck is the most consistant... ever? I dunno, but it's super annoying to play against. I thought my Ooze combo build would wreck it, but we've split the games. Price of Progress is an absolutely absurd card, which Snapcaster only makes better. I could Duress it away from him, but he often found another one and went (Eot Price for 6-8, Untap Snapcaster->Price for 6-8, GG). I was wrong about Force to an extent, because here we actually have a 2 card combo from turn 4 on in Legacy now. Delver puts them into range so nicely too! ;D cheers...

Counter-Burn Style of Deck submitted to the OP. Credit Given. Thanks Troopatropp. Can you give a basic Run down of how the deck was played against Your Ooze Combo so I can add its Match-Up to the OP? Thank You.

[Kich867]

Troopa, in my counterburn list I only ran 3x grim lavamancers, I was wondering, do you find yourself running into them too much? Also, why the lack of Magma Jet? I suppose your list doesn't really have any room for it, after playtesting with Force of Will do you find it to be a must-have, perhaps dropping a lavamancer for a fourth?

I don't know why I overlooked price of progress in my counterburn list, it would have sped up the games tremendously..

[Beatusnox]

I personally believe in Running 4 Lavamancers. I like 1 drops and I would rather my opponent counter a Lavamancer than a Price of progress, so almost using it as "look at me I'm dangerous!!!"

Kich, how would you configure the mana base for the deck you have on page one, I would like to use it as the Burn Example list.

[Kich867]

I personally believe in Running 4 Lavamancers. I like 1 drops and I would rather my opponent counter a Lavamancer than a Price of progress, so almost using it as "look at me I'm dangerous!!!"

Kich, how would you configure the mana base for the deck you have on page one, I would like to use it as the Burn Example list.

I can get on board with that. Generally, I lean towards having 20 land in a land-light deck, I've run 18 and I found the difference noticeable. Given that we aren't running wasteland (which I feel is correct),

Lands: 20
4x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
5x Mountain
3x Island

-- Burn variants running Fireblast need to be able to consistently sac mountains, so the 5/3 split leans in favor of mountains over islands. You could justifiably lean the non R/U fetches towards mountains as well but that may be overkill.

This allows you to pretty easily avoid playing non basics in the event of wasteland issues / back to basics.

If I was running 19 lands I'd drop a blue fetch.

[Beatusnox]

I can get on board with that. Generally, I lean towards having 20 land in a land-light deck, I've run 18 and I found the difference noticeable. Given that we aren't running wasteland (which I feel is correct),

Lands: 20
4x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Arid Mesa
5x Mountain
3x Island

-- Burn variants running Fireblast need to be able to consistently sac mountains, so the 5/3 split leans in favor of mountains over islands. You could justifiably lean the non R/U fetches towards mountains as well but that may be overkill.

This allows you to pretty easily avoid playing non basics in the event of wasteland issues / back to basics.

If I was running 19 lands I'd drop a blue fetch.

I agree with heavier mountains here. You almost never have double Blue to hit, but often times double red. Will edit the list on to the main page. Also does anyone know if it would be possible to change the thread title to U/R Snapcaster instead of U/R Aggro Control? Some forum softwares allow regular users to do so and some not, this one seems to be not.

[Stuuch]

Hello everyone. Nice to see lists and discussion about this kind of deck. I think these cards have a lot of potential in legacy right now. Here is a burn oriented list that I will be working with as soon as I get my Volcanics from the mail.

Lands: (20)

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

Creatures: (13)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrects
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells: (27)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Rift Bolt
2 Lava Spike
2 Fire // Ice
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

Sideboard: (15)

3 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smitheneers
1 Shattering Spree
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

I dont think I need a basic Island because this list has only ten spells that require blue mana and only one blue mana each. What do you guys think?

[TsumiBand]

I am reading this at work, so pardon my short reply - Voidmage Prodigy can sac every dude in the deck (besides a transformed Delver) and would give the deck a way to diversify its threats/counters. Ie, Mancer isn't amazing in every matchup but a hard counter is usually great. Same with a somehow 'unflipped' Delver.

Also I miss Fish/r and it was one of my favorite decks and it played that dude, and I would win when I played that dude, and that was back when there were only like 2 playable Wizards and now there's a lot more. Seems good anyway.

[from Cairo]

I am reading this at work, so pardon my short reply - Voidmage Prodigy can sac every dude in the deck (besides a transformed Delver) and would give the deck a way to diversify its threats/counters. Ie, Mancer isn't amazing in every matchup but a hard counter is usually great. Same with a somehow 'unflipped' Delver.

Also I miss Fish/r and it was one of my favorite decks and it played that dude, and I would win when I played that dude, and that was back when there were only like 2 playable Wizards and now there's a lot more. Seems good anyway.

Voidmage Prodigy seems worse than Patron Wizard and idk that either of them are viable.

[Beatusnox]

I am reading this at work, so pardon my short reply - Voidmage Prodigy can sac every dude in the deck (besides a transformed Delver) and would give the deck a way to diversify its threats/counters. Ie, Mancer isn't amazing in every matchup but a hard counter is usually great. Same with a somehow 'unflipped' Delver.

Also I miss Fish/r and it was one of my favorite decks and it played that dude, and I would win when I played that dude, and that was back when there were only like 2 playable Wizards and now there's a lot more. Seems good anyway.

Voidmage Prodigy I had not even heard of this card. Definitely a 'Goodstuffs' for the control and, possibly even counter-burn. At worst he can sacrifice himself and its a counterspell on a body. Maybe a metagame card like many of the others.

Progdigy only requires :u::u: patron :u:u:u: in a two color deck, only needing double and not triple of a single color can be a huge difference. Will try to make a list to test it more thoroughly.

[baghdadbob]

I just played the list vs landstill on cockatrice absolute pwning. Nice list overall, I feel however like I always wanted to fetch basics rarely did I want to fetch a volcanic. What are you looking at for the s/b? I think mine is something like...

4x Mindbreak Trap
1x Spell Pierce
2x Crypt
1x Relic
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyls Recal
2x Echoing Truth

[Beatusnox]

I just played the list vs landstill on cockatrice absolute pwning. Nice list overall, I feel however like I always wanted to fetch basics rarely did I want to fetch a volcanic. What are you looking at for the s/b? I think mine is something like...

4x Mindbreak Trap
1x Spell Pierce
2x Crypt
1x Relic
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Hurkyls Recal
2x Echoing Truth

Which List are you testing? It seems like a pretty good catch-all sideboard. from the 4x Mindbreak trap I would guess you are not playing the control or counter-burn variants.

[troopatroop]

I agree with heavier mountains here. You almost never have double Blue to hit, but often times double red. Will edit the list on to the main page. Also does anyone know if it would be possible to change the thread title to U/R Snapcaster instead of U/R Aggro Control? Some forum softwares allow regular users to do so and some not, this one seems to be not.

It's mostly about the natural draw. I haven't found a reason to fetch more than 1 basic Mountain yet, and have rarely wished that my basic Island were a Mountain. Considering Wasteland as well, getting stuck with an untapped Mountain is rarely useful, whereas the Island keeps Spell Pierce and Brainstorm up. Lightning Bolt, being an answer for permanants, could at least be casted later. If you're mana screwed, and all you have is the basic Mountain, and you're staring at Ponders and Brainstorms in your hand, you're not going to be very happy.

That being said, his list has VERY little need for a basic Island, as he's just all out Burn + B-storm/Delver/Snappy, so I agree as well. It's important to not take manabase construction in absolutes, imo. This deck has so much flex, and the lands are always a reflection of what you need to cast. Well, that's all for now. Fuck homework! :P

Oh, and Grim Lavamancer is more important to this deck than any other, like Zoo or something. It's either 3 or 4, because they're lackluster in multiples, but I think he's a huge part of the deck's gameplan. I like to bait the removal on him, and follow it up with a Delver that eats 6-12 points of life. It's just really important that you've got another critter to keep pressure after removal. Force is another story, and I wouldn't want to play more than 3. Maybe you board one, idk, but the card is hit or miss. Sometimes you have to cast it bad, like removing a Snapcaster Mage that you need later. If you don't see multiples at the same time, you go minus 2! in cards, and then you're really counting on PoP to win it for you. If you expect a 40% combo metagame? by all means, but I already MD 4 Pierce. 3 Daze/3 Fow has been just enough free counter for me.

[Beatusnox]

It's mostly about the natural draw. I haven't found a reason to fetch more than 1 basic Mountain yet, and have rarely wished that my basic Island were a Mountain. Considering Wasteland as well, getting stuck with an untapped Mountain is rarely useful, whereas the Island keeps Spell Pierce and Brainstorm up. Lightning Bolt, being an answer for permanants, could at least be casted later. If you're mana screwed, and all you have is the basic Mountain, and you're staring at Ponders and Brainstorms in your hand, you're not going to be very happy.

That being said, his list has VERY little need for a basic Island, as he's just all out Burn + B-storm/Delver/Snappy, so I agree as well. It's important to not take manabase construction in absolutes, imo. This deck has so much flex, and the lands are always a reflection of what you need to cast. Well, that's all for now. Fuck homework! :P

Oh, and Grim Lavamancer is more important to this deck than any other, like Zoo or something. It's either 3 or 4, because they're lackluster in multiples, but I think he's a huge part of the deck's gameplan. I like to bait the removal on him, and follow it up with a Delver that eats 6-12 points of life. It's just really important that you've got another critter to keep pressure after removal. Force is another story, and I wouldn't want to play more than 3. Maybe you board one, idk, but the card is hit or miss. Sometimes you have to cast it bad, like removing a Snapcaster Mage that you need later. If you don't see multiples at the same time, you go minus 2! in cards, and then you're really counting on PoP to win it for you. If you expect a 40% combo metagame? by all means, but I already MD 4 Pierce. 3 Daze/3 Fow has been just enough free counter for me.

I also find that Lavamancer is also huge against many of the U/W/x stoneforge decks out there. Burning equip targets in response to moving to equip can give us the edge to fight through any possible disadvantage that can be caused by a batterskull on the table. Can also be combined with a lightning Bolt to kill the token outright if needed. Tomorrow I should be able to spend all day testing match-ups for the Control and Aggro-Control variations I will post results and some lines of play against what I played.

[unicoerner]

My current build. Control is completely in the side. The 2 slots i am not sure about are the Lava Spikes. I am thinking about Hellspark Elemental or that Barbar in this slot. Any other ideas?

// Lands
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Mountain (3)

// Creatures
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 [DD2] Magma Jet
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [CHK] Lava Spike

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast

[Stuuch]

My current build. Control is completely in the side. The 2 slots i am not sure about are the Lava Spikes. I am thinking about Hellspark Elemental or that Barbar in this slot. Any other ideas?

// Lands
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Mountain (3)

// Creatures
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 [DD2] Magma Jet
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [CHK] Lava Spike

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast

I dont think you should cut the spikes. Delver needs instants/sorceries for flipping and if you cut the spikes you only have 24 left MD. Otherwise I think your list is fine. Maybe the Fows in the side could also be Spell Pierces.

[Kich867]

My current build. Control is completely in the side. The 2 slots i am not sure about are the Lava Spikes. I am thinking about Hellspark Elemental or that Barbar in this slot. Any other ideas?

// Lands
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Mountain (3)

// Creatures
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 [DD2] Magma Jet
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [CHK] Lava Spike

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [U] Red Elemental Blast

Drop something for Fireblast, at least a 3 of. Tap 2 mountains, float 2 mana, double lightning bolt + fireblast = 10 damage.

[sclabman]

4 Bolts
4 Chain Lightning

This is optimus prime. You can race anything with Snapcaster and 8 bolts.

[yutang]

I've also tried out a more Thresh version of this deck.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
3 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Preordain

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Firespout
2 Hibernation

As you can see, it runs 19 lands and plays like traditional thresh minus the green. I feel that cutting the green would be stabilise the manabase and allows for Snapcaster to be used.

A problem that I have run into in testing is Green Aggro, in particular GW variants. It is just difficult to deal with green fatties. Another problem is removal.dec against my creatures

Any ideas?

[Beatusnox]

I've also tried out a more Thresh version of this deck.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
3 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Preordain

2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Firespout
2 Hibernation

As you can see, it runs 19 lands and plays like traditional thresh minus the green. I feel that cutting the green would be stabilise the manabase and allows for Snapcaster to be used.

A problem that I have run into in testing is Green Aggro, in particular GW variants. It is just difficult to deal with green fatties. Another problem is removal.dec against my creatures

Any ideas?

If you cannot counter the fatty you are going to have to double up Lavamancer AND bolt. Also, If you are trying a more tempo/thresh build, I would recommend trying stifles. Will Post more of my testing results tomorrow night, Have to wake up early for work. Good night Sourcers.

[yutang]

If you cannot counter the fatty you are going to have to double up Lavamancer AND bolt. Also, If you are trying a more tempo/thresh build, I would recommend trying stifles. Will Post more of my testing results tomorrow night, Have to wake up early for work. Good night Sourcers.

Oops forgot the 4x stifle in the md. And you are right...a resolved fatty is extremely hard to remove. Though fire ice helps a lot in tapping it down for tempo

[Beatusnox]

Oops forgot the 4x stifle in the md. And you are right...a resolved fatty is extremely hard to remove. Though fire ice helps a lot in tapping it down for tempo


Who needs sleep before work? lol

Anywho,

To be honest, the reason that I transition from the Tempo build I had to a more Aggro-Control was issues with fatties. However, The addition of JTMS helps with this extremely. Most of their beaters do not have haste, which allows you to bounce whatever problematic creature they play. While it is not ideal, it does give you an out to draw into another counter to prevent them from playing it again. Another thing you can do, if they try to GSZ for 0 you can always (if on the play) daze it. Sometimes keeping them off of that Dryad arbor is huge.

[yutang]

Hmm though I don't think Jace fits into the Thresh style version (for pretty much the same reason it doesn't fit in normal Thresh). There just aren't enough lands to support him and not enough to protect him. He belongs in a control shell.

If bounce is what is required - old school Rushing River as a quick 2 for 1 or even Unsummon could be used. Though I reckon Fire/Ice is more flexible than either of these options

[Schembo]

This deck won our local legacy tourney last time.

1. Sija: Kaarle Tukia (UR Burn)

Main Deck

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lavaspike
4 Fire // Ice
4 Fireblast
2 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm

4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:

2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens

Top4 decks can be found here: http://www.poromagia.com/index.php?page=viewarticle&articleid=82

[supa_tim]

I'm surprised this deck isn't getting more discussion since it won the last SCG Open:

UR Burn by Andrew Shrout (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42531)

I'm actually pretty excited that some recent developments have made UR Counter-Burn viable FINALLY.

I'm wondering if goblin guide is the best we have. 2/2 haste is good, but I don't like the draw back. Is there anything better?

Any thoughts on adding Fire/Ice in the deck?

[death]

First time seeing this thread. Yep that deck belongs here and not to Blue Sligh thread.

Give it some time and the deck might become big like RUG/Reanimator. I remember it took 2 SCG top8s from Kyle Kloster before Jin-Gitaxias got the nod in Reanimator and it also took months before the deck became tier 1 but look at where it is now.

[Dyvith]

I've posted this everywhere, so I'm sorry if you've seen this already, but I top 4ed and Doug McKay top 8ed the December 3rd Jupiter Games NELC with UR Snapcaster Decks.

My list is here:

Main deck:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Smash to Smithereens
2 Shattering Spree
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge


And you can check out Jupitergames.net for my tournament report and the top 8 decklists.

[DerFern]

Anybody testing the SCG list? I played an exact copy yesterday at our local tournament (11 players) and went 3-1, being 2nd after swiss. My only loss was 0-2 against Canadian Thresh with 2-0 against MUD and NicFit, 2-1 against Belcher.

This deck is amazing and incredible fun to play. Nonetheless, some of my conclusions so far:
-you can´t beat a good aggro-control player. 2 Goyf stalling the game and some well-placed counters was all the Can Thresh guy needed to completely wreck my gameplan. Even though PoP is THE card in this matchup, it is a perfect target for opposing Spell Snares which kinda sucks.
-I GUESS you need the fourth Snapcaster. I had only one single Snappy in 10 games played and there it was only win-more. The interaction between Fireblast, Force of Will and Snapcaster sucks (obv).
-What do you guys think about Blood Moon or Back to Basics from the side? Right now, my meta (and I guess yours, too) is flooded with unstable manabases and Blood Moon could really blow them out. Any thoughts?
-Looks like I´ll give it another try this upcoming sunday at a ~30 ppl tournament. Hope to get some more results and conclusions...

[BigBopper]

I'm wondering if goblin guide is the best we have. 2/2 haste is good, but I don't like the draw back. Is there anything better?

Any thoughts on adding Fire/Ice in the deck?

Well, the drawback of goblin guide has actually some synergy with PoP. I just believe it's a bad topdeck in mid-lategame. I've seen lists with Vendillion Clique instead but you can't push damage through fast with it. So maybe -2 GG, +1 Snapcaster, +1 PoP/Ponder/FoW....

I've also thought of Fire/Ice and Dismember, but the deck doesn't need that. Let goyf beat you or chump block with Snapcaster, while flashbacking a bolt or lightning^^

[bob2008]

-What do you guys think about Blood Moon or Back to Basics from the side? Right now, my meta (and I guess yours, too) is flooded with unstable manabases and Blood Moon could really blow them out. Any thoughts?
.

I played 2 Blood moon in the side at GP Amsterdam (5-2-1 then drop) and they were really good. I brought them in many times. I remember at least three matches against Team America were the Moon was (of course) gamebreaking. Afterwards i can say that BM felt like one of the strongest cards in my 75.

For me the reason to pick up this deck again would be Blood Moon ( and Phyrexian Dreadnought, of course)

best regards,

bob

[Zilla]

Moved to Established, since this deck has made Top 8 at the last two SCG Opens.

[Zilla]

I've been testing this list to good results lately:


4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
1 Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze

SB:
3 Force of Will
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Surgical Extraction


A few observations:

1. I tested Snapcaster, and I know this will be anathema to a lot of you, but I just don't like it here. The deck is running 18 lands and never wants to see the late game. It's vulnerable to REB and Spell Snare. Every single time I draw it I wish it was a Lightning Bolt, so I just put Rift Bolts in that slot. I can see how he might make sense in a build that needs a higher blue count to support MD Force of Will, but in my build he just feels subpar.

2. FoW in the side. I tested it in the maindeck (with Snapcasters) and I was rarely happy with it. I was almost always pitching cards I actually needed to seal the deal, like Delver or Snapcaster or even Brainstorm. Burn plays a very tight game. It can win almost always by turn 4, but it needs every card to do it. The card disadvantage from FoW just ends up costing you a lot of games by giving your opponent the extra turn they need to stabilize. It's still great against combo (obviously), so I moved it to the board.

3. Someone questioned whether Goblin Guide was the best choice for this slot. It definitely is. It's one of the best cards in the deck, and you almost always want to see them in multiples. In most cases, it doesn't matter how many lands they have in their hand, because they'll be dead before they can play them. Honestly, Guide's "disadvantage" has actually been a real boon in many games; knowing what your opponent is about to draw can give you very important information about what you want to play and when.

4. Someone was saying the RUG Tempo matchup was very difficult. I haven't tested a huge amount of games against it, but it hasn't been that difficult for me. Submerge in response to a fetch is amazing against Goyf, and you can race every other threat in their deck. They're very threat light and you're very threat dense. If you're careful about when and what you fetch to avoid getting blown out by Stifle/Waste, and play very aggressively, you should do okay.

5. This probably goes without saying, but Smash to Smithereens is an amazing answer to Batterskull.

6. Delver is stupid.

[Kich867]

I've been testing this list to good results lately:


4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
1 Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze

SB:
3 Force of Will
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Surgical Extraction


A few observations:

1. I tested Snapcaster, and I know this will be anathema to a lot of you, but I just don't like it here. The deck is running 18 lands and never wants to see the late game. It's vulnerable to REB and Spell Snare. Every single time I draw it I wish it was a Lightning Bolt, so I just put Rift Bolts in that slot. I can see how he might make sense in a build that needs a higher blue count to support MD Force of Will, but in my build he just feels subpar.

2. FoW in the side. I tested it in the maindeck (with Snapcasters) and I was rarely happy with it. I was almost always pitching cards I actually needed to seal the deal, like Delver or Snapcaster or even Brainstorm. Burn plays a very tight game. It can win almost always by turn 4, but it needs every card to do it. The card disadvantage from FoW just ends up costing you a lot of games by giving your opponent the extra turn they need to stabilize. It's still great against combo (obviously), so I moved it to the board.

3. Someone questioned whether Goblin Guide was the best choice for this slot. It definitely is. It's one of the best cards in the deck, and you almost always want to see them in multiples. In most cases, it doesn't matter how many lands they have in their hand, because they'll be dead before they can play them. Honestly, Guide's "disadvantage" has actually been a real boon in many games; knowing what your opponent is about to draw can give you very important information about what you want to play and when.

4. Someone was saying the RUG Tempo matchup was very difficult. I haven't tested a huge amount of games against it, but it hasn't been that difficult for me. Submerge in response to a fetch is amazing against Goyf, and you can race every other threat in their deck. They're very threat light and you're very threat dense. If you're careful about when and what you fetch to avoid getting blown out by Stifle/Waste, and play very aggressively, you should do okay.

5. This probably goes without saying, but Smash to Smithereens is an amazing answer to Batterskull.

6. Delver is stupid.

Loving the look of that list! How do you approach using daze, do you just kind of throw it out whenever it'll counter something or hold onto it?

[Zilla]

Loving the look of that list! How do you approach using daze, do you just kind of throw it out whenever it'll counter something or hold onto it?
Depends on what you're playing against, of course, but basically, Daze is just there to buy a turn, which is usually all you need to win the game.

I'll Daze a blocker for my attackers. I'll Daze an StP aimed at a one of my creatures. I'll Daze a Spell Snare on Price of Progress. Basically, I treat Daze like damage. If I can use it to push through a few extra points, it's served its purpose.

The exception to that ideology is against combo, where you use it to stall their plan as long as you can and try to race. Combo is one of the few matchups where you try to play control. Every other matchup you're the beatdown.

[dsck]

IMO Snapcaster belongs in the list. Opposing Snares arent that scary when you can replay your price of progress with snapcaster. You WILL reach 3-4 mana on some games and thats when snapcaster shines.

You can also play him when your opponent has to tap out under pressure so you dont really care about spell snare, on top of that you have dazes..

Forces just win games.

That being said I like AJ Sachers list (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/legacy_decklists_that_finished.html):

4 goblin guide
4 delver of secrets
4 snapcaster mage (I'd personally play 3)
3 grim lavamancer
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
3 price of progress
3 ponder
3 force of will
3 spell pierce
1 daze (I'd play more dazes)
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
4 wooded foothills
2 mountain
2 island

Sideboard:
1 force of will
1 price of progress
1 hydroblast
3 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 chaos warp
2 surgical extraction
2 sulfuric vortex

[Kich867]

IMO Snapcaster belongs in the list. Opposing Snares arent that scary when you can replay your price of progress with snapcaster. You WILL reach 3-4 mana on some games and thats when snapcaster shines.



I think his point is the only legitimate target snapcaster has is price of progress, otherwise you're casting a 3 mana lightning bolt when you could just be casting another bolt. Alternatively, Magma Jet performs a similar role with guaranteed damage by making sure you're drawing into business or digging through crap.

So is a 4 mana PoP worth it? It's another card that doesn't flip delver and it's pretty terrible on the board.

[4eak]

Originally, I wasn't convinced Blue Sligh/Counterburn (or whatever this is) was worthwhile (although, I do like Blue Zoo). After testing, I'm increasingly convinced this deck is a good one. The list on which I've been working is nearly identical to your list Zilla. I like the explanations you gave (nothing to add).

I've found myself wishing I had just a bit more permission. I'm wanting to go -2 burn spells, +2 Spell Snare or Spell Pierce (leaning towards SSnare). Thoughts? I realize the deck is hyper-aggressive, but having more than merely 6 ways to interact on the stack seems necessary.


peace,
4eak

[coraz86]

I've found myself wishing I had just a bit more permission. I'm wanting to go -2 burn spells, +2 Spell Snare or Spell Pierce (leaning towards SSnare). Thoughts? I realize the deck is hyper-aggressive, but having more than merely 6 ways to interact on the stack seems necessary.

In this post-Misstep meta where people aren't scared shitless of running one-drops, how appropriate does Spellstutter Sprite seem? Especially since Zilla cited the same weakness against combo that straight-red burn has.

I mean, the flip side of that is that I've never previously been thrilled with Spellstutter in a deck that doesn't also rock Jitte and/or SoFaI (not to mention that in the list being discussed here you don't have FoW to pitch it to), so it might just suffer from the same problem here that Snapcaster does. Still, the idea of a counterspell that I can untap with and start swinging seems okay.

[BigBopper]

I think a big point of Snapcaster is that he can be flashed into play to flashback Brainstorm, Bolt, Daze or PoP, but also he can block a goyf, Knight or whatever. Since not so many creatures are run, this might also give you an extra turn.

I also would like to add to all lovers of Moon Effects: it dissynergises with PoP.

[GrdiVrag]

I also would like to add to all lovers of Moon Effects: it dissynergises with PoP.

Sorry to disappoint you, but non-basic lands stay non-basic under Blood Moon, it does not change their supertype. Still, I don't think there's enough place for 2-3 Blood Moons in the SB, I'd rather have something like Echoing Truth to combat random white leylines or multiple gofs/knights.
I think this deck could become huge. I've been playing Zilla's list (no Snapcasters, sb FoW, full set of PoP and Rift Bolt), and I'm really impressed with the results.

[lyracian]

I have been playing around with counter burn since Delver came out so I am glad to see this topic get promoted. Am I the only one that likes magma jet?

[Arako]

I have been working on different U/R lists since i saw Delver for the first time.
The list i've enjoyed the most is this:

MD

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

2 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Price of Progress
2 Fire/Ice

4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest


SB

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

[Beatusnox]

I want to apologize to you all for not being able to maintain the Primer a lot, between work and personal issues I haven't had the chance. I'm going to do what I can now.

[Kich867]

I have been playing around with counter burn since Delver came out so I am glad to see this topic get promoted. Am I the only one that likes magma jet?

I'm a big supporter of magma jet. It's quite card efficient. For a similar effect you'd have to Preordain, draw a bolt and cast it. Same mana, two cards, one more damage. I wouldn't run it over ponder, you need ponder I feel.

[troopatroop]

I'm a big supporter of magma jet. It's quite card efficient. For a similar effect you'd have to Preordain, draw a bolt and cast it. Same mana, two cards, one more damage. I wouldn't run it over ponder, you need ponder I feel.

No, it's not the same. Magma Jet is a 2cc card that deals 2 damage to a target. From the start, this is very weak. What people like is the Scry 2, but this is not a cantrip, and the only card "advantage" in this is burying lands you don't want. In a deck that already features Brainstorm and Ponder, this Scry affect is not nearly as valuable and important as it is to mono red burn. Preordain says "Draw a card". Preordaining into Lightning Bolt is a whole 50% more damage than Jet.

Against a deck that plays creatures that will die to Jet, it can be valuable. There are many decks that you're forced to burn their life total, like combo and control, and that's totally awful. For 2 mana, I want to be casting Price of Progress and winning. Also, Multiple Magma Jets are the absolute worst. I think that card is overvalued.

[Zilla]

I agree on Magma Jet. If Brainstorm were banned then Jet might take its place, but otherwise it's just not necessary in a deck with both Brainstorm and Ponder, which are flat out better at sorting your deck. There's not really room in this deck for burn that does less than 3 damage, imo.

[JMLL]

Maybe the point is not ADD Magma Jet to the deck but CHANGE Ponder with Magma Jet. Imho, Brainstorm gives what it has to, the ability to remove useless threads /answers form your hand (+ fetch ofc) so it's untouchable. Ponder "just" arranges what you are going to draw and this seems almost the same as Magma Jet, where you cast the damage right away and then arrange what you'll draw next. In this concept, they are close to each other, but we are:
- Depending on resolving the damage in order to arrange the next cards
- Spending 1 more mana to do so (and maybe we don't have enough with 2 points)
- Going 1 less card in depth
- Reducing the amount of blue cards from the deck, then, diminishing FoW probability.

I've played Boros for some time, and I was a fan of Magma Jet (3x) to arrange my next draws and avoid lands from the top of the deck when I needed to seal the deal. Also, in order to improve the damage output, Magma Jet was almost always (when possible) fired at a creature to clear the path for my Goblin Guide or slow down the opponent (see Hierarch / Stoneforge) in a way to optimize every point I could deal. If it was to be included in this deck, it should be played like this, but I'm unsure of its effectiveness.

Keep in mind that Ponder is way more reusable with Snapcaster than Magma Jet, just for the extra mana that we may be short of.

Anyway, Testing will determine its effectiveness or lack of it.

[Sandoz]

Hi, I'm new to this deck and started loving it. :-)

I currently run Magma Jet instead of Ponder.
In addition to the above mentioned pros and cons I think a major advantage of Magma Jet is that as an instant you can cast it EOT. This makes it more flexible with regard to timing aspects. But, time will tell.

Have fun,
Sandoz

[Zilla]

Maybe the point is not ADD Magma Jet to the deck but CHANGE Ponder with Magma Jet.
I actually gave this some testing last week. I didn't like it for the following reasons:

1. My build is running 18 lands. Ponder will let you keep a strong 1 land hand. Magma Jet, not so much.

2. I really like the ability to run FoW in the board. Without Ponder, I simply don't have the density of blue cards required to support it.

3. With 12 3cc 3 damage burn cards in the deck (Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt,) it's pretty rare to cast Ponder and not be able to draw into one of them on the same turn. So typically you're getting 3 damage for 2 mana off Ponder as opposed to 2 damage for 2 mana off Magma Jet.

[4eak]

My list:

// Lands - 18
2 Mountain
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures - 11
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer

// Burn - 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Price of Progress

// Permission - 8
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

// Cantrip - 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer

I've cut down to 2 Volcanic Islands. This may seem odd. Frankly, I don't want to have more than 2 even when I have had the opportunity, and most of the time I only want 1. I like having basics. The deck is very stable against Wasteland this way, and I'm going to keep it like that. I can't recall the last tempo deck I played which had such a consistent mana-base.

I've moved away from being a combo deck and more towards an aggro-control deck. I think this is the right direction, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I ended up cutting Fireblast. This deck wants to be able to interact. It isn't a combo deck which highly values finishers (regardless of whether or not they can be used as control cards), like a combo-burn deck. This is an aggro-control deck. Almost all of its burn cards must be able to hit creatures (without the ridiculous drawback of having no or next to no lands). Fireblast, when you aren't completely land flooded, is almost never going to target creatures. I'd rather have more interactive cards than Fireblast.

Of course, Price of Progress remains in the deck, yet it is clearly just a finisher. Its minimum damage tends to be Fireblast's damage and it can easily hit for far more. Also, I can use it without overextending (by saccing my land). I think it is the best finisher. If I had bolts 13-16 (Fire/Ice is in testing right now), I'd be sideboarding Price of Progress.

Originally, I had the 4th Grim Lavamancer main. I've mixed feelings about him. Where he's good, he's amazing. I board him in when he's all that and a bag of chips. While I like the mana-base where it is, I might be willing to adjust it to pick up Nimble Mongoose. 8 beaters is not a lot. I want 1-cc beaters (plays perfectly in the deck). For a light splash, the deck can pick up what is arguably the best 1-cc beater in the game (particularly when you can hit Thresh so effectively). People who play around Daze and control my creatures can make life difficult. Nimble Mongoose is insanely good against removal, but he doesn't play nice with Lavamancer. Most of the time, I either want one of the other, a shrouded beater or a shock-stick. I can easily side out the Geese for Mancers when I want. I'll be trying it out.

I've maxed out on Spell Snare and Ponder. I know some people don't like having multiple cantrips (it can slow the tempo of the deck down), but it allows to play only the 1st-class cards for each function, and it also means that I have very few upkeepable hands - I commonly keep 1-land hands with cantrips. Spell Snare has been golden for me, giving me the ability to interact where Burn and Daze don't. I can't say enough about being able to play out my cards while keeping mana open to disrupt (even if it is conditional and only works against a particular, yet large, set of cards). I get to deploy my assets, and they don't get to deploy their assets in the early game - if that isn't tempo, I don't know what is.

This deck is marginally slower than versions which concentrate on finishers, but it is also more stable, consistent, and interactive.


peace,
4eak

[Stuuch]

I finally got to play with my deck last night and it was quite good. I won about 70% of the games. I played against Team America and Maverick. I really liked Fire/Ice and Snapcaster also seems good when you have a Price of Progress in the yard. I did not miss counter magic so much but I sided in the Pyroblast against Team America though. Main thing with this deck is to play as aggressive as possible. It does not matter if you have no cards in hand when your opponent is at three lives because you have so many topdeck answers that just wins you the game.

Here is my new list.

Lands: (19)

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

Creatures: (12)

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrects
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells: (29)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Rift Bolt
3 Lava Spike
3 Fire // Ice
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

Sideboard: (15)

3 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smitheneers
1 Shattering Spree
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Echoing Truth
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

[Floi]

@4eak
I don't like rift bolt but apart from that I agree with most of what you've written. But why no Snapcaster Mage?

[4eak]

Rift Bolt is efficiently costed, hits for 3, and it can target creatures and players. The suspend drawback clearly makes it worse Chain and Bolt, but it remains the best option for the slot. If you don't agree to Rift Bolt, explain why. What card is better?

I agree with Zilla's argument about Snapcaster:


I've been testing this list to good results lately:

1. I tested Snapcaster, and I know this will be anathema to a lot of you, but I just don't like it here. The deck is running 18 lands and never wants to see the late game. It's vulnerable to REB and Spell Snare. Every single time I draw it I wish it was a Lightning Bolt, so I just put Rift Bolts in that slot. I can see how he might make sense in a build that needs a higher blue count to support MD Force of Will, but in my build he just feels subpar.

Reiterating and adding upon what Zilla explained:

Snapcaster is slow. Snapcaster belongs in a deck which seeks the mid and even late game. This is not a deck which seeks the midgame. Putting Snapcaster in here shows a misunderstooding of both the tempo of this deck and the nature and role of Snapcaster. Putting Snapper in this deck is akin to putting Bob in the deck. The cards are powerful, but they aren't the correct role for the deck.

Snapper is clearly above the curve of the deck. It isn't that the deck never gets to 3-lands (it does), but rather that isn't the intent of the deck. For example, if I even have more than 2 Lands, I'm often shuffling them away with Brainstorm for more gas.

Yeah, he has a body attached to him, but I rarely cast him without having the mana to flash something back, making him a 3-cost body without evasion. That sucks, as by the time you have 3-mana, your opponent will very often have a blocker for him. His body is too often irrelevant. When they do have blockers, he's generally a 3cc Lightning Bolt (which is what a hardcasted Rift Bolt would be).



peace,
4eak

[paK0]

Nice list @4eak, I think I gonna try this.

Got some questions though:

1. How does this fare against Maverick?
2. No Pyroblast/REB in the board. Are you just not worried about anything blue or is this a meta call?
3. Do you board in FoW against anything besides combo?

[4eak]

1) It depends upon which variant of Maverick we are talking about. Punishing Fire variants are easier to beat with combo variants which are very burn heavy, as you are far less likely to win on the back of your guys. Against most non-Fire variants, I think my list performs better than the combo variants of UR-Delver. My list doesn't get blown out by Wasteland (having 8 cantrips and more basics) and it more effectively stops SFM & Jitte (which can often be game ending cards).

2) I started with REBs. REB is a fine card. Take the sideboard with a grain of salt (it should vary far more than the main). Spell Pierce also tends to be as good as REB most of the time, having wider applications, despite lacking the Vindicate and hard counter effect on blue spells/permanents. I like Spell Pierce more.

3) Can't think of an example of the top of my head, so for now, I'll say no.


peace,
4eak

[paK0]

So, I've been playing a few games and like it so far, though I changed the board to:
4 FoW
4 Crypt
4 Submerge
3 Pierce

I tested against my brothers Zoo and there Goblin guide is really bad. Its okayish on the play, but on the draw its just horrible. Submerge kinda helps with it, but even then Nacatls and Apes are just better than him. Any advice?

I also have some trouble sideboarding, sometimes I identify a creature as the weakest card, but I'm still hesitant ti take em out, since I feel that I will lack some beef afterwards. Same with Daze, on the draw its kinda meh, but plaing without it just doesn't feel right.

Any help is appreciated =)

[4eak]

Submerges are also awesome. I've actually tried cutting FoW's (sounds crazy) for Submerges. I'm not sure what I think about it. Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare have been pretty darn good against Storm and Reanimator (also Crypt here). Are they enough? I'm not sure - I've not lost a match to these decks yet, but that could be for any number of reasons.

Every deck has weak matchups. Zoo is a going to be a weak matchup. This is very much like a weaker version of Zoo, we've given up P/T efficiency and threat density to gain blue's cantrips (which have many effects) and stack control. Zoo wants to face other aggro and aggro-control decks which are simply worse at getting to the redzone.

If you expect Zoo, don't play this deck. Nobody likes to hear that, but that's part of metagaming.


peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

Slightly off topic but, I really don't get why people bother meta-gaming. If everyone meta-games "correctly" there is a supposed specific deck or group of decks that people will bring to any given event. This would cause everyone to bring whatever deck does best against that given deck that the event is supposed to have a lot of, which would result in pretty much no one running that deck because they're all running decks that stomp that deck.

And if that's not the case then people have different beliefs as to what will be the deck to look out for at the tournament, which makes meta-gaming arbitrary and kind of pointless.

I know that's a rather inelegant and not completely accurate assessment, but for the most part, when I read tournament reports here, people that mention their meta-gaming decisions were frequently wrong.

I feel like the only time meta-gaming makes sense is when you're walking into a known environment in which you objectively know the meta and have played quite frequently there. Like, I -know- one guy will be playing flashless hulk combo, one guy some sort of U/W / Bant aggro control, a handful of janky mono green aggro decks, a little bit of affinity, and the one dude that plays a different top tier deck every week.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just play whatever deck you have the most fun / are the most comfortable playing and are the most capable of playing?

In any event, I just got most of the cards for the deck, I'm really only missing some number of volcanic islands and scalding tarns (I have one VI, not sure how many I want to get, probably 1 or 2 more, I agree that I'd rather have more basics, in fact--even with one I never felt terribly pressured on having to cast things given that the deck is like 98% one drops).

I have ponders, decided to try out preordains first, I like them. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about them, with a lot of fetches we shuffle quite frequently, but I would almost always rather put a card on the bottom of my library that I don't want and keep the one I do want.

I'm not sure of the math on it, but it seems to make sense to me that if you bottom deck two cards and don't shuffle, the more non-burn cards you bottom deck the higher your chance of drawing business you'll have, whereas ponder has this consistency to show you 3 totally useless cards, and then you have to shuffle...so those totally useless cards are not in a known place, they are just shuffled back in so there's still a potential the top of your deck is shit. I feel like preordain doesn't have as much of that, if you see two shit cards top deck, you can bottom deck them and know that your top deck is now mathematically better until you shuffle again. The problem there is, we shuffle a lot..

[Parax]

I feel like the only time meta-gaming makes sense is when you're walking into a known environment in which you objectively know the meta and have played quite frequently there. Like, I -know- one guy will be playing flashless hulk combo, one guy some sort of U/W / Bant aggro control, a handful of janky mono green aggro decks, a little bit of affinity, and the one dude that plays a different top tier deck every week.


This is exactly what Metagaming means. If where you play (your meta) is chalk full of Zoo then you probably should not play this deck in that meta. You're meta being a bunch of mish mash, you could be quite ok with running this deck as the only one that might give you a bad game is the UW aggro control and possibly when the random guy decides to play reanimator.

[paK0]

Its not like I think there will be a lot of Zoo around, but there is nothing wrong with being prepared for it =)

[Kich867]

So I went to a 30 man tournament today, my list wasn't particularly amazing, but it wasn't particularly awful either.

//Creatures:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer

//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Price of Progress
4x Rift Bolt
3x Preordain
3x Spell Pierce
3x Lava Spike
2x Fireblast

//Lands:
1x Volcanic Island
3x Mountain
2x Island
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Submerge
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyroblast

So, I did terribly in any event. For one, I feel the deck needs Snapcaster mage--decks these days are too good at not dying to die to our shit. I could have won many, many more games had I had snapcasters in the deck (which I fortunately traded for +3 Snapcaster's and +1 Volcanic Island at that very tournament, I'll be posting what my new decklist is going to be afterwards).

I'll briefly describe the games since most of them were somewhat linear in nature..

Match 1: UWR(?) Patriot control thing..
This was probably UW tempo, he dropped Volcanics, but in both games I never saw a red card..I can only imagine VI's were in play for some reason, so I'm fairly certain it was some Patriot variant.

Jitte hit the table, I got wrecked, I boarded for Jitte, it got countered, Jitte wrecked me. Fetched mostly basics, PoP never hit for more than 2.

Match 2: UWG(?) Bant control thing..
Again, green there, never saw green cards, after the games he let me know that it's for the 2x Sylvan Library's he ran..

Jitte hit the table, I got wrecked, I boarded for Jitte, I killed Jitte early, Jace + Elspeth beat me while he fetched basics / spell snared what worthless PoP's I could cast.

Match 3: Deadguy Ale
I really should have won this, game 1 I just didn't make it there before (Guess what!) Jitte hit the board and wrecked me. Game 2, I keep a one-land hand with a brainstorm, otherwise solid, land is a basic island, bad call. Brainstorm, nothing. Somehow I go through 26 cards before finding...another basic island. This was the only game in the entire tournament where 18 lands hurt me, they were all clumped up (after stack shuffling) on the bottom of my library. I took him to 2 life with 2 delver's before he stabilized, got a jitte(!!) and killed me. I was kind of disappointed and frustrated at this point that 5 games in a row jitte just absolutely dominated my shit and wasn't thinking terribly clearly. A mulligan to six and I would have won the series, I'm rather confidant of it--we played like 3 or 4 more games because the guy was very nice and I won most of them.

Match 4: Super jank mono red burn

I won, he cheated a lot (frequently wouldn't take damage from being hit, was adding buffs to Kiln Fiend off of creatures, didn't tap to play things) but I didn't really care because it was like a 100 card super casual burn deck. He asked if it would be cool if we played 3 games no matter what, because we're here to play magic, and I'm like yeah whatever, so I win 2-0, we play again, I keep some dumb hand because I don't really care, he wins and reports the score as 2-1--he was a really nice guy, this kinda bothered me though. Overall, I didn't really care because I was clearly not in top8 and I don't really give a shit, but in retrospect if he wants to play in more tournaments I probably should have called him out (in a nice way obvi) on everything..

Match 5: GW Maverick

Narrowly lost game 1, game 2 I got blown out. Game one he had 4 non basics in play, I PoP > Fireblast > Lightning bolt for 15, he's at 14, he STP's his own thrun and lives, stabilizes, beats me to death with an arbor carrying a sword. Game two he plays around PoP (at one point even just burning his own lands with wasteland) and I lose..

It's true, Snapcaster Mage is a card for decks that want to see the mid to late game, but more importantly, it's a card that operates in the mid to late game very well. Just because this deck can win fast on a goldfish, doesn't mean it'll ever happen. In every game I played, my creatures were removed, my PoP's were countered, people hardcore played around PoP with surprising numbers of basics (UWR had 4 islands and 2 plains out at one point).

Mana was never really an issue except for that one flukey game, I frequently had 2-3 mana in hand each game, but not a single game went quickly. People run counters, lots of them, oddly enough I was never hit with a force once--just spell snares and pierces and dazes. Getting my VI wasted was literally never relevant, it happened a lot but it didn't really impact the game. The only remotely fast game was against Maverick and it was because he didn't play around PoP and it blew him up hard, and then he lived, I didn't top deck a bolt and lost.

Here's the new list I'll be running:

//Creatures:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Price of Progress
3x Ponder
3x Lava Spike
3x Spell Pierce

//Lands:
2x Volcanic Island
2x Mountain
2x Island
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest

//Sideboard:
3x Submerge
2x Fireblast
1x Price of Progress
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Pyroblast

I've been to about three tournaments now, none of them particularly large--between 30-40 people--and I've only ever seen 0 people playing combo so, mindbreak traps are out. Eventually, Submerge will be some more useful artifact hate. I really hate Jitte. I might even just board some Jitte's...to kill Jitte's.

[BigBopper]

Since Jitte and Batterscull see so much play together with SFM, why not play 2 Sulfuric Vortex main? It totally goes along with the burn plan, setting every opponent on a clock and also prevents life gain.

[4eak]

Spell Snare and Smash to Smithereens (4x) are excellent answers to SFM/Jitte/Batterskull. Shattering Spree is also good against a counterwall. Try them out if you haven't already.


peace,
4eak

[Zilla]

At 3cc, Vortex is hitting the table only a single turn before you should be winning the game in many cases. That's one expensive Shock.

Also, your entire deck answers SFM, so the only way your opponent is ever likely to get a Batterskull into play is by hardcasting it, which, unless they want to walk into Daze, means it won't hit play until turn 6, and won't be able to attack until turn 7. That's way, way too slow. If you haven't won the game by turn 7, you've probably lost anyway.

At best, Vortex is a sideboard card against decks with life gain, but against Batterskull/Jitte, Smash to Smithereens and Spell Snare are better answers.

[Kich867]

Yeah, batterskull wasn't much of a problem, just Jitte. 4eak is correct though, I should be packing spell snares over spell pierces as the only problematic cards for this deck reside in the 2cc area--Jitte, SFM, etc.

Turn 4 wins feel like a difficult claim to make however, even at it's fastest I never won a game by turn 4, my creatures would be killed, price of progress would be snared. Gold fishing turn 4 wins all day, but when player interactions come up and people STP their own creatures / wasteland their own land to avoid huge damage, counterspells, things that can block things, it just rarely works out that way unless they have no protection and no removal.

Snapcaster I think will help a lot there. However, people playing around PoP felt like it hurt the most. I've never seen so many tri-color decks repping out -that- many basics. Also, twelve fetches felt like a -lot-. I would have been fine with 8, most of the time I wished they were just mountains or islands so I wouldn't hit myself so hard getting land out.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Kich: So I guess you're running Spike over Chain Lightning for budget?

[Kich867]

@Kich: So I guess you're running Spike over Chain Lightning for budget?

Kinda-sorta? I already have enough things that kill creatures..Chain Lightning can be turned on delver / guide / etc. They're both sorceries, they're both going to be aimed at the player..

[BigBopper]

Well, I don't always have a Spell Snare on hand when Jitte hits the table and with all this counter backup I usually don't win at turn 4. So Vortex is great lategame card, especially when you're in topdecking mode. I also made a couple of bad experiences when I cast Fireblast and it get's FoW. Left with an island is huge drawback, so Vortex could be run in its spot...?

[Kich867]

Well, I don't always have a Spell Snare on hand when Jitte hits the table and with all this counter backup I usually don't win at turn 4. So Vortex is great lategame card, especially when you're in topdecking mode. I also made a couple of bad experiences when I cast Fireblast and it get's FoW. Left with an island is huge drawback, so Vortex could be run in its spot...?

I wouldn't really cast fireblast for it's alternate cost unless you're absolutely positive you will win the game or it's drawback destroys superfluous mountains.

I frequently hit 5-6 lands throughout play if the game drags on and saccing the mountains is rarely an issue. I wouldn't do it if it leaves you with just an island unless you're absolutely going to win, unless you're going to die that turn. Granted, I removed fireblasts from the main but I kind of want to bring them back for the explosiveness of them, and people having 4 health left has been oddly consistent for me..

Speaking of which, I don't know what the hell it is with this deck, but I run 18 lands, and in a 5 round tournament of which I played 10 rounds + 6-10 casual games, I had 4 land opening hands in almost every game but 3, one of which I distinctly recall keeping a one-lander and not hitting a land for 26 cards (I still almost won with a basic island and delver's, that game was dumb, we were both mana screwed and delvers + the guy's bob almost killed him) and the other two were very nice 2 land hands. Even in playtesting, I nail like 3-4 land hands almost every time with the very, very rare no-land hand (happened twice in about 40 games so far).

It's almost frustrating how often I run into 4 land hands as they're nearly unable to be kept unless I have like, a delver and ponder/brainstorm to ditch that shit.

[BigBopper]

I cast Fireblast with one mana in pool and faced a daze witch I payed and then he cast a brainstorm and found force... I don't remember if I was going to die the next turn, but I definetly don't get mana flooded. I usually play 3 lands and keep a fetch in hand together with the ones I draw until I see a brainstorm and shuffle them away for other cards. I've never seen a game with 5 lands. And I only keep four for Snapcaster into Price.

[4eak]

Kinda-sorta? I already have enough things that kill creatures..Chain Lightning can be turned on delver / guide / etc. They're both sorceries, they're both going to be aimed at the player..

Lava Spike and Chain Lightning are in different leagues. Chain Lightning is almost strictly better than Lava Spike. I can count on one hand how many times Chain Lightning's drawback mattered in my experience. I cannot recommend highly enough playing burn which targets creatures (with ease, thus not Fireblast).

It sounds like you play a blitzkrieg strategy, and perhaps it is uncommon for you to play an aggro-control role with your burn spells. It should be very common to play burn as removal; it should be commmon enough that you readily admit that Lava Spike is far worse than Chain Lightning. If the blitzkrieg 'combo' route is really what you are after, Mono Red Burn/Sligh is better at this role, by miles (as is Zoo). If you can't see why Chain Lightning is head and shoulders better than Lava Spike in this deck, then I believe you've misunderstood the deck in general.


I frequently hit 5-6 lands throughout play if the game drags...I run 18 lands, and in a 5 round tournament of which I played 10 rounds + 6-10 casual games, I had 4 land opening hands in almost every game but 3, one of which I distinctly recall keeping a one-lander and not hitting a land for 26 cards

You are either unlucky (which is highly possible given that you are looking at a sample of 35 games, which is very small) or you are doing something wrong if this happens frequently. You are saving your extra lands for Brainstorm, right?



peace,
4eak

[Kich867]

Lava Spike and Chain Lightning are in different leagues. Chain Lightning is almost strictly better than Lava Spike. I can count on one hand how many times Chain Lightning's drawback mattered in my experience. I cannot recommend highly enough playing burn which targets creatures (with ease, thus not Fireblast).

It sounds like you play a blitzkrieg strategy, and perhaps it is uncommon for you to play an aggro-control role with your burn spells. It should be very common to play burn as removal; it should be commmon enough that you readily admit that Lava Spike is far worse than Chain Lightning. If the blitzkrieg 'combo' route is really what you are after, Mono Red Burn/Sligh is better at this role, by miles (as is Zoo). If you can't see why Chain Lightning is head and shoulders better than Lava Spike in this deck, then I believe you've misunderstood the deck in general.



You are either unlucky (which is highly possible given that you are looking at a sample of 35 games, which is very small) or you are doing something wrong if this happens frequently. You are saving your extra lands for Brainstorm, right?



peace,
4eak

Part 1: I'll be grabbing chain lightnings and spell snares soon. Whether I should be burning creatures was somewhat confusing for me with people explaining how they would aim to win on turns 3 or 4.

Part 2: My tournament experience probably isn't the best to look at in regards to the land drops, most games a jitte resolved and I had no answer until game two. However, on top of that, I'm absolutely far from being the best player or probably even a mediocre player. Nor do I have much experience playing blue competitively as I've been playing combo elves almost exclusively for the last 8 or 9 months.

[Zilla]

Few things:

1. With regards to Sulfuric Vortex, I would almost never maindeck it, unless your metagame just has a TON of decks running Jitte. Batterskull isn't a reason to run it maindeck at all.


2. I think Fireblast is a phenomenal finisher in a lot of matchups, particularly in games where you need to race. I frequently side them out against control decks, because they are indeed a liability.


3. Price of Progress steals a lot of game 1s. If I know my opponent can play around them, I frequently side them out in games 2 and 3. Knowing your opponent is limiting their mana flexibility because of cards that aren't in your deck feels really good.


4. Agree with 4eak about Lava Spike vs. Chain Lightning. This deck is aggro control. Don't be afraid to aim your burn at your opponent's creatures, particularly when you're clearing blockers for your own creatures. If your opponent is running Mountains, it's typically not that difficult to either wait until he's tapped out to cast Chain Lightning, or cast it when you have multiple untapped Mountains, meaning you can just send it back at them if they choose to send it at you. To be honest, a lot of players seem to forget that Chain Lightning can even be copied in the first place.


5. I've said that this deck typically wins on turn 4, and that's a bit misleading. It goldfishes consistently at turn 4. In real games, your fundamental turn is typically turn 4. In other words, the game state will be clearly in your favor and you only need a few more points to win, or your opponent will be stabilizing, you'll be in topdeck mode, and you've basically lost. You can usually tell by turn 4 who's going to win the game, with not many exceptions, in my experience.

This does not mean that you're doing something wrong if your games go to turn 5. Sometimes you need to slow roll a bit more and play a little more control and a little less aggro.

[troopatroop]

The thing that appeals to me about Vortex is the inevitability. Against any Maverick or Stoneblade deck, you're going to be at a higher life total, so it's basically GG. Smash to Smithereens can GET Snared, and if you're tapped out you can't Snare them. It seems very strong against Landstill and CB-Top as well. It just relieves alot of pressure to get the job done against Blue. If they're slowing you down with Vortex in hand, it's really not a big deal.


Also... I keep loving this deck. Goblin Guide doesn't have a trigger anymore, so say GO quickly! Hope they draw a land xD

[4eak]

I can see Vortex in the side, I guess. The more combo-oriented the deck, the more I'm willing to accept Vortex (because the more combo-oriented the deck, the more it plays like Burn/Mono Red Sligh, decks where Vortex makes sense). The inevitability issue doesn't really come up often for me though. My creatures usually provide me with that -- I have to play against a removal heavy deck which somehow isn't afraid of burn (perhaps because of lifegain) to really want Vortex. Punishing Fires Maverick is a matchup where Vortex makes sense.

Every card is going to have vulnerabilities. The 3 damage from Smash to Smithereens has been outstanding for me. If you are really worried about counterwalls, I suggest Shattering Spree instead (not instant, but it gets the job done, even through Chalice, 3Sphere, CB, etc.). Honestly, I feel comfortable on the stack with this deck. I tend to put so much pressure on my opponents that they are usually tapping out to survive - getting Smash to Smithereens to resolve has not been a problem for me. Game 2 and 3, they often side out Spell Snares as well, since there are few targets (they will play around PoP).

As to casting your own Spell Snare, I look at this as one of the skill tests for the deck. U(X)r Thresh decks (we don't use the Threshold mechanic, but the deck still maintains the archetypes core tempo-based aggro-control strategy) have always had difficult lines of play, such as those presented by Spell Snare, where skill and experience are necessary and rewarding. Knowing when to tap out to play which function is not always an easy task. Sometimes it is better to hold back and wait to SSnare, and sometimes it is better to tap out even when you know that your opponent very well might play a 2cc spell that you could have countered. Being wrong can easily cost you the game.

Are you sure Goblin Guide is optional now? I'm pretty sure it is still mandatory. Assuming it is, if I understand the changes, your opponent won't get in trouble for missing the mandatory trigger, but you can.


peace,
4eak

[troopatroop]

I've totally come around to Guide. Being a shock turns 3-On sells him for sure. I was just joshing at how he's better, now thattriggers can be skipped. As far as I understand it, If I say GuideSwing18Go in one big word, and they proceed to draw a card I'm in the clear. They've skipped the trigger, and it could have benefitted me to see their top card. Am I wrong in this?

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

what trigger are you talking about?

[Kich867]

what trigger are you talking about?

Goblin Guide's trigger. It shouldn't be optional since it's not on the list they supplied.

[Beatusnox]

Goblin Guide's trigger. It shouldn't be optional since it's not on the list they supplied.


It is not skippable as it would be beneficial to your opponent(drawing a card).

[troopatroop]

It is not skippable as it would be beneficial to your opponent(drawing a card).

Not always. They could reveal the top card, have it be Ad Nauseam, and all the sudden I know their 75.

There's no guarantee it's good for them, and it could be bad, so they SHOULD be allowed to skip it.

[Octopusman]

Pretty sure that goblin guide's trigger is mandatory. The fact that I even had to type that is irritating to me. Stupid bullshit rules change.

There is a list of things. If it's on this list, you own the trigger and forget... Or ignore it, the game goes on and the opponent doesn't need to remind you even if it doesn't say "may".
Forget about the word beneficial and refer to the list of situations.
Consider it something that you need to memorize like when who has priority or in what order layers occur.


I don't think removing pierces for snares is a good idea. Bolts deal with almost everything. Okay, snare is good for goyf, but that's about it (you can and will burn stoneforge mystic and keep it off the board with rift bolts.

I have a lot of experience with decks like this and I can echo what others have said about a resolved enemy threat that is out of burn range. Right now, I'm looking at echoing truth et al... Perhaps memory lapse or maybe remand.

Consider remand acting as burn in the sense that you're likely stealing another attack phase and it replaces itself. Early game early game early game. Late game... Bolt or fireblast to the dome.

I'm just not really seeing a lot of answers right for for x/4 creatures and problem stuff like leyline of sanctity, etc. We also just lose the race G1 to show an tell?

Please keep developing this deck. I love it! I'm not sure how long price of progress will be great for (huge blood moon/back to basics fan here). How many people totally board it out G2+ since the oponent will play around it? I think the weakens this deck's G2+ greatly, unfortunately.

[Kich867]

Firstly, I too made a redguard that looked like Kimbo Slice, he never wore any gear but what he started with + huge as boots cause he needed some ass kickin boots.

Secondly, pierce doesn't deal with Jitte. Spell Snare deals with just about every problematic card I can think of. I'd rather counter stoneforge than let them even get the chance to find their singleton jitte. It counters jitte if they draw it, it counters goyf, it counters counterspells, it counters hymn, bob, way too much good stuff imo.

People play around Pierce all day and daze doesn't cut it past the first few turns.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I like how there's been a lot of type 2 creep in legacy lately. Legacy U/R Delver seems pretty much identical to standard except it eats lightning and shits thunder. Literally.

[catmint]

I read through the thread and it is nice that there is a lot of players testing different variants.

After my limited testing I think it is best to run snapcaster mage in a 19 or 20 land build with a lot of basics. The 2/1 body is not impressive but if Guide is stalled by a blocker mage gets at least 2 damage through. Also as mentioned by some poeple it is sometimes good to kill creatures in order to make sure the ground guys can come through. Snapcaster supports this strategy very well. Not only can you reuse your burn spell for the dome, but you get an additional body that is just fine if it gets through once. I guess you would take URR for 5 damage with much more potential (PoP, brainstorm, counter, attack more than once,...).

I think in a version with 4 Guide, 4 Delver, 3 Lavamancer and 4 Snapcaster the maindeck counters should be important for everything that stops you from attacking (removal & large creatures). Therefore I would opt to play FoW maindeck and some combination of Daze/Spell Pierce since these counters are most likely to hit removal.

Playing without snapcaster and force but a higher burn density, I would not feel that comfortable targeting ground guys, since your creatures can be removed easier and the 2 for 1 snapcaster is missing.

Jitte is a real Problem in Maverick. Therefore I would opt to play a simple strategy, which should slow them down and blank jitte:
1) Attack with creatures
2) Kill everything that moves (only good plan with snapcaster)
3) Counter their removal / KOR (only good plan with FoW)

This plan is not that good versus Punishing Fire decks, but against them PoP gains a lot in value!

I have 1 question:
In some builds I saw Chaos Warp in the SB. Is this just against Leyline of Sancity or are there some other problem permanents where this is sided id..?!

[David Kaplan]

Blue Burn

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Lava Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

SB:
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Searing Blaze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens

I took Sullivan Burn and added Delver and Brainstorm, cutting Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny. After testing 1 Daze, I continued to add until settling on the full set of 4, pulling Lava Spikes. I do not like FoW/Ponder/Snare/Snapcaster, as that is a different flavor from aggro to aggro-control.

Any comments on the heavier-burn style, preference or dislike over control?

[Zilla]

With regards to the burn heavy list, my comments are as follows:

1. 4 Fireblasts is too many. You pretty much never want to see them in multiples, and you don't necessarily want one in your opening grip. I'd never run more than 3, personally.

2. 20 lands is just too many in this deck unless it's running Snapcaster. Burn decks live and die on their threat density, and topdecking lands in the midgame will cost you games. I don't know if Sullivan's list is running that many, but if it is, I'm guessing it's because Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny increase the mana curve a lot, and you're not running either of them.

3. Personally, I'm really not comfortable running so little control, but if that's what you want, I'd drop a Fireblast and two lands for either 3 more Lava Spike or (my personal preference) 3 Ponder.

[4eak]

I certainly don't agree with the aggro-combo route, but if you do it, then do it right.


I'm fine with 4 Fireblast when you have Brainstorm. I run 4 Fireblast in regular Burn/Sligh anyways.

Test an Island.
Cut down to 17 or 18 lands.

If you are going for the combo route, then cut Daze and play Lava Spike. Daze is the wrong role.
I highly recommend Magma Jet.


EDIT: Here, this is the list I've tested (and rejected in favor of an aggro-control build):

// Lands - 18
1 Mountain
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

// Creatures - 11
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

// Card Quality - 7
3 Magma Jet
4 Brainstorm

// Usual suspects - 24
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress


peace,
4eak

[Stuuch]

Blue Burn

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
1 Lava Spike

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

SB:
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Searing Blaze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens

I took Sullivan Burn and added Delver and Brainstorm, cutting Flame Rift and Figure of Destiny. After testing 1 Daze, I continued to add until settling on the full set of 4, pulling Lava Spikes. I do not like FoW/Ponder/Snare/Snapcaster, as that is a different flavor from aggro to aggro-control.

Any comments on the heavier-burn style, preference or dislike over control?

I think you should try Fire/Ice it is has been very good in my tests. It is usually enough if you can stall one big attack from goyf or another big creature by tapping it in opponent´s upkeep and then you get to draw a card too. The Fire part can kill two Hierarchs for example. As for counters I think Spell Snare is the best counterspell for this version of the deck since it counters so many problematic cards like Jitte, SFM and Hymn.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Why would you run this deck without snapcaster. That'd be like hockey games without fights or china without rice. That card is so good I made a U/R deck just to run them.

[Zilla]

Why would you run this deck without snapcaster.
Snapcaster is a late game card, which means it fits in a more controlling build of this deck.

You basically have a spectrum, with an almost pure burn deck splashing blue for just Brainstorm and Delver and running 17-18 lands on one side, and a deck running 19-20 lands and Force of Will + Daze + Snapcaster on the other, and anything in between.

This is similar to the spectrum you see in BUG decks, where you have a highly aggressive aggro control build (Dark Thresh) on one end, Team America in the middle, and BUG Control at the other end.

Different builds are going to perform better or worse in certain metagames. Snapcaster is great in a more controlling build, but he doesn't belong in faster more aggressive builds, in my opinion.

[dsck]

So i just went to tcdeck, went to search and set search for legacy format, delver + chain lightning maindeck

14 decks with snapcaster, 1 deck without.

BUT on the other hand, my friend played UR delver and went 5-1 in swiss event and he felt like Snappers underperformed (only flashing back snare and bolt once).

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

some facetious shit

I see the merits of running this deck without snapcaster, par but personally I've wanted a playset of them since they got leaked and I love being able to flash anything back I want. I wouldn't blindly throw in snapcasters in every single iteration but there aren't a lot of cards to me that compete for those 4 slots.

[Zilla]

So i just went to tcdeck, went to search and set search for legacy format, delver + chain lightning maindeck

14 decks with snapcaster, 1 deck without.

BUT on the other hand, my friend played UR delver and went 5-1 in swiss event and he felt like Snappers underperformed (only flashing back snare and bolt once).
I'm not going to argue with results. Not saying Snapcaster isn't a good card, just that it has its place.

The bottom line is that people have a giant hardon for Snapcasters right now. They're throwing them in any deck that can support them, whether they belong there or not. This is particularly true amongst the SCG crowd.

Are Snapcasters good in this deck? Sure. Are they the best choice in a build with 18 or fewer lands that never wants to see the late game? I would argue that they are not. You can still put them into a build like that without weakening it too much, but I don't think it's the strongest choice for that slot, as your friend would seem to agree.

While playtesting my highly aggressive build, I originally ran Snapcaster as a 3-of. I was rarely unhappy to see them, and they served their role reasonably well. But I noticed that I frequently wished they were just a 1cc 3 damage spell so I could end the game right then and there. Essentially, I would usually still win the game, but it would take a turn longer to do it than if it were just another direct damage spell.

Take that for what it's worth. Again, I'm not going to argue with tournament results... just going to point out that they're not necessarily the last word on the matter.

[Kich867]

I'm not going to argue with results. Not saying Snapcaster isn't a good card, just that it has its place.

The bottom line is that people have a giant hardon for Snapcasters right now. They're throwing them in any deck that can support them, whether they belong there or not. This is particularly true amongst the SCG crowd.

Are Snapcasters good in this deck? Sure. Are they the best choice in a build with 18 or fewer lands that never wants to see the late game? I would argue that they are not. You can still put them into a build like that without weakening it too much, but I don't think it's the strongest choice for that slot, as your friend would seem to agree.

While playtesting my highly aggressive build, I originally ran Snapcaster as a 3-of. I was rarely unhappy to see them, and they served their role reasonably well. But I noticed that I frequently wished they were just a 1cc 3 damage spell so I could end the game right then and there. Essentially, I would usually still win the game, but it would take a turn longer to do it than if it were just another direct damage spell.

Take that for what it's worth. Again, I'm not going to argue with tournament results... just going to point out that they're not necessarily the last word on the matter.

I don't, honestly, I almost always want SCM as price of progress'. On top of that, Lightning Bolt is the only instant speed 3 damage spell we have in the deck. Brainstorm is also insanely relevant. I've SCM'd into a brainstorm into a ton of damage off the top.

They're damn good, and have served me well. I don't feel the super fast version is all that viable, you burn out quickly and I find that they stabilize with 4-5 health and I just can't close the deal.

[Beatusnox]

After the holidays (Monday/Tuesday hopefully), I will do more updating and fixing to the primer(if i cannot tonight, the internet is sketchy right now at best). Right now the OP seems helter skelter (TBH I didnt expect to get this to established so quickly lol).

[rxavage]

this has been my take on this deck, it is very similar to everyones it seems:


4 goblin guide
4 delver
3 lavamancer

4 bolt
4 chain lightning
3 pop
2 fireblast

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 force of will
3 daze
3 ssnare

2 mountain
2 island
4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 bloodstained mire
1 arid mesa



sideboard
4 riftbolt
2 submerge
2 spell pierce
2 echoing truth
3 smash to smithereens
1 shattering spree
1 lavamancer

///


im open to suggestions and opinions. i may try going to 17 lands and switching out the 2 fireblasts for +1 lava, +3 rift bolt. i may also want to try and fit pyroblast in the 75.


Welcome. The Source requires proper grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and sentence structure.
-4eak

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Cut daze down to 1 or 2. Once you counter one of their spells with your one daze they'll start playing more cautiously. That card is good it just doesn't work that well in multiples to me because the threat of you playing a daze while they're tapped out is stronger than the card's actual effect. PoP is great but I wouldn't run it maindeck without being able to snapcast it. That shit wins games my friend.

[Greenpoe]

2 Daze? You either want 4 Daze, 3 or none. It's an early game card that people may want to run only 1 because it's not exactly amazing in multiples (still a good 4-of with Force/Brainstorm though). Good players won't just not tap out because you're playing Daze. They'll just play their spells differently. Spoiler: Free counters are good.

[troopatroop]

That's not true. For reference, a winning list...

U/R Delver
A Legacy Magic deck, by Andrew Shrout
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Fireblast
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Snare

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction

2 Daze has tested very strong for me here, as have all the card quantities. 2 Fireblast have been exceptional at closing out games with the Aggro-Control strategy, and are a real boon to have. All in all, the deck is very streamlined. 2 of Daze or Fireblast can't ever really be bad, because you don't want multiples, and they're free. Price + Snapcaster gives this deck a serious source of lategame dmg, so I've found 3 Force 3 Snare to be a fine addition to the deck. You can say the deck loses focus, but I believe it's great protection from what beats us. Burn lists "should" stay focused on burn, but I believe in this route as well, simply because Price is so much damage anyway. This list should be featured on the primer, imo.

[Beatusnox]

It already is. At the bottom of the op has been for a week i believe. I am on my phone right now so it is hard to fix op.

[TheMinel]

are you Andrew himself? If so well done on the results! I've run your list with some slight modifications in a tournament here in Italy earlier in the month and it did well too, despite the meta being quite different i assume vs the US one. That said, FoW is a bit of a liability where you have to discard other "good" blue cards... I'm tesing a version of your list without FoW.

Overall a kickass deck, that I'm liking a lot!! I am thinking of testing small changes to it with maybe even something like Psionic Blast in 1 or 2x (and I agree with you on the usefulness of Fireblast but no more than 2x too) or the likes of Incinerate too...

[jrw1985]

Has anyone tried out Snapcaster Mage along with Repeal? It seems mana intensive, but flashing back a Repeal with a Snapcaster seems like a good way to net cards while slowing your opponent's board development. It's probably better suited for a more controlling build, but filling up a hand with burn seems like a reasonable idea also. Also, consider casting Repeal on a Snapcaster already in play. Then recast Snapcaster, flashback Repeal, net 2 cards. It's mana intensive, but it keeps your hand stocked.

Has anyone tired these two together?

[TsumiBand]

Has anyone tried out Snapcaster Mage along with Repeal? It seems mana intensive, but flashing back a Repeal with a Snapcaster seems like a good way to net cards while slowing your opponent's board development. It's probably better suited for a more controlling build, but filling up a hand with burn seems like a reasonable idea also. Also, consider casting Repeal on a Snapcaster already in play. Then recast Snapcaster, flashback Repeal, net 2 cards. It's mana intensive, but it keeps your hand stocked.

Has anyone tired these two together?

Wouldn't Snap work at least as well? -1 card, +3 mana(the mana you didn't spend on Repeal).

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

if we're going to pull out decklists and compare shit here's another of andrew shrout's lists that top 8'd. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42656

Personally I'm not willing to run anymore than 2 daze maindeck. Fireblast is actually a card I'm seriously considering because sometimes your opponent just gets lucky and plays another knight/tarmogoyf in their second main RIGHT AFTER you forced/burnt one off the board and sometimes bolt + grim lavamancer damage just isn't enough to protect your ass from a beating. Right now I'm playing U/R Delver in standard and Vapor Snag has become my #1 favorite card in the format right now. I suggest anyone who is considering some sort of bounce in this deck to check it out. If you do end up bouncing one of your snapcasters you're only going to get pinged for one and the low casting cost fits perfectly with the low curve of this deck. At the very least, having a vapor snag or possibly chain of vapor may give your opponent a little pause before he turns anything sideways.

also jrw this deck has a few good ways to keep card advantage, viz. gitaxian probe and ponder. these cards should keep you well-stocked and holding the answers.

[lordofthepit]

also jrw this deck has a few good ways to keep card advantage, viz. gitaxian probe and ponder. these cards should keep you well-stocked and holding the answers.

These are not sources of card advantage, unless you're also running Pyromancer's Ascension or something.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Just going by the hands I've been dealt. I probably just used the incorrect wording for it.

[SupREME-10]

I am seeing a lot of abuse with Surgical Extraction in my area and it is deffinately a good reason to potentially limit the number of 4offs in the deck

Anyway I have my own version of Izzet Delver and here is my Mana Base.
Mana -- 4 volcanic island, 2 island, 2 mountain
Fetches -- 4 scalding tarn, 1 bloodstained mire, 1 wooded foothills, 1 flooded strand, 1 misty rainforest.
Utility -- 3 wastelands

It can help avoid having mass removal of fetches from an opponents surgical extraction and has started me to believe that using more 2-3 offs in the deck will help yet again, especially where my snapcaster mage will get me a 4th copy anyway. First card cut down to 3 off was FoW, and so far I have had the 4th copy in the sb; but I don't think I have ever needed it.

Here is the rest of the deck, feel free to give me your thoughts.
Deck List
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Daze
4 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Fire//Ice
3 x Force of Will
2 x Gitaxian Probe
3 x Ponder
4 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique
3 x Chain Lightning
2 x Fireblast
2 x Goblin Guide
2 x Grim Lavamancer
4 x Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
3 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Force of Will
2 x Hydroblast
3 x Pyroblast
3 x Smash to Smithereens
3 x Price of Progress

Now I know that it is a blend of control, and aggro; but this is where I am at and I would appreciate any comments.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

You really need to be running submerge in your sideboard. I'd suggest putting all 4 FoW in your main; G2 & 3 you can side one out in favor of smash or whatever you're going to put in. Matter of fact just cut out both vendilion cliques for another FoW and Chain Lightning. I dunno there's a bunch of other stuff I can mention but I don't know how this particular list functions against other popular decks. All I can really say is the main path to victory with this deck is not swing damage but damage spells. Snapcasting PoP is so awesome. Or bolting your opponent when they have enough creatures on the board to do lethal to you next turn and you just end it then and there.

[Kich867]

You really need to be running submerge in your sideboard. I'd suggest putting all 4 FoW in your main; G2 & 3 you can side one out in favor of smash or whatever you're going to put in. Matter of fact just cut out both vendilion cliques for another FoW and Chain Lightning. I dunno there's a bunch of other stuff I can mention but I don't know how this particular list functions against other popular decks. All I can really say is the main path to victory with this deck is not swing damage but damage spells. Snapcasting PoP is so awesome. Or bolting your opponent when they have enough creatures on the board to do lethal to you next turn and you just end it then and there.

Going to have to disagree with that. This deck isn't burn and it can't win like burn unless your opponent willingly lets you kill them by being retarded. Unless the last 2 cities I went to for 30-36 man tournaments and my local scene are all super anomalies, when people realize you play PoP in your deck, they avoid duals like the plague and unfortunately PoP for 2 damage doesn't really cut it.

I find that delvers, guides, and lavamancers carry me through more games than not--I simply keep them alive. Burn reach wins a lot of games too, for sure, brainstorming EOT into a grip full of burn is amazing, but you don't get there without beaters. This deck is unique in that your removal, unlike most decks, can be turned toward your opponent--STP / GD / etc can't do that, so we have a ton of removal that can also win us the game.

I'd prioritize keeping beaters alive over getting a burn through almost unanimously unless it'll kill them.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

You've played a lot more games with this deck than I have and I can only speak from my experience.I'm having trouble prioritizing which spells should and shouldn't be let through. I find my creatures, esp. delver and goblin guide are great until I've gotten my opponent down to about 10 life and they stabilize and drop a goyf and put me on the defensive for the rest of the game because I wasn't holding FoW/spell snare to stop the beating. The last few matches were almost all tit for tat and the last I won only through a nut draw.

[Kich867]

You've played a lot more games with this deck than I have and I can only speak from my experience.I'm having trouble prioritizing which spells should and shouldn't be let through. I find my creatures, esp. delver and goblin guide are great until I've gotten my opponent down to about 10 life and they stabilize and drop a goyf and put me on the defensive for the rest of the game because I wasn't holding FoW/spell snare to stop the beating. The last few matches were almost all tit for tat and the last I won only through a nut draw.

Yeah, the deck often has trouble with large creatures sadly. I find it odd as a sidenote, that as a general statement, Price of Progress is the card I absolutely want to see the least of. I'd almost rather it be Lava Spike or Fireblast. I can count on one hand the number of times it's done more than 4 damage after my opponent knew what I was playing--which they do, frequently by turn one or two.

I may just drop them for fireblasts / spikes back in the deck for more direct damage.

[Zilla]

Going to have to disagree with that. This deck isn't burn and it can't win like burn unless your opponent willingly lets you kill them by being retarded. Unless the last 2 cities I went to for 30-36 man tournaments and my local scene are all super anomalies, when people realize you play PoP in your deck, they avoid duals like the plague and unfortunately PoP for 2 damage doesn't really cut it.

I find that delvers, guides, and lavamancers carry me through more games than not--I simply keep them alive. Burn reach wins a lot of games too, for sure, brainstorming EOT into a grip full of burn is amazing, but you don't get there without beaters. This deck is unique in that your removal, unlike most decks, can be turned toward your opponent--STP / GD / etc can't do that, so we have a ton of removal that can also win us the game.

I'd prioritize keeping beaters alive over getting a burn through almost unanimously unless it'll kill them.
I've had very different experiences than you have with this deck, and I suspect it comes down to a difference in the way we play. I also suspect it's the reason we disagree on certain card choices.

First and foremost, I mull very aggressively with this deck. If a hand has more than 2 lands in it, I will strongly consider mulling. If it has 3 lands and no Brainstorm I'll almost always mull it. If it has more than 3 lands it's unkeepable.

I also look for hands with at least one Delver or Guide in it, preferably 2 or 3. In my experience, Guide and Delver are extremely valuable in the first couple turns, and lose a great deal of value every turn thereafter, as your opponent has a chance to stabilize and develop his board position.

Guides and Delvers always get priority in the first couple turns. I rarely use burn to clear the way for blockers (especially Guide) unless I'm sure my opponent has no other means of dealing with them. After the first couple turns, I usually hang onto Guides and shuffle them away with Brainstorm.

If you can get 5-7 damage in the first few turns with creatures, you can reliably dole out the remaining damage with burn and Lavamancer damage, assuming you haven't been using it on creatures. That's been true for me even when my opponents are playing around PoP.

In short, mull aggressively, prioritize your beaters in the first 2-3 turns, and mostly disregard them after that, and use burn on opposing creatures only when absolutely necessary.

Am I correct in assuming you play the deck pretty differently? If so I'm interested in hearing details about it. I want to try it your way to see how it works for myself.

[Kich867]

I've had very different experiences than you have with this deck, and I suspect it comes down to a difference in the way we play. I also suspect it's the reason we disagree on certain card choices.

First and foremost, I mull very aggressively with this deck. If a hand has more than 2 lands in it, I will strongly consider mulling. If it has 3 lands and no Brainstorm I'll almost always mull it. If it has more than 3 lands it's unkeepable.

I also look for hands with at least one Delver or Guide in it, preferably 2 or 3. In my experience, Guide and Delver are extremely valuable in the first couple turns, and lose a great deal of value every turn thereafter, as your opponent has a chance to stabilize and develop his board position.

Guides and Delvers always get priority in the first couple turns. I rarely use burn to clear the way for blockers (especially Guide) unless I'm sure my opponent has no other means of dealing with them. After the first couple turns, I usually hang onto Guides and shuffle them away with Brainstorm.

If you can get 5-7 damage in the first few turns with creatures, you can reliably dole out the remaining damage with burn and Lavamancer damage, assuming you haven't been using it on creatures. That's been true for me even when my opponents are playing around PoP.

In short, mull aggressively, prioritize your beaters in the first 2-3 turns, and mostly disregard them after that, and use burn on opposing creatures only when absolutely necessary.

Am I correct in assuming you play the deck pretty differently? If so I'm interested in hearing details about it. I want to try it your way to see how it works for myself.

I aggressively kill my opponent's creatures to make way for my own--if a delver gets 3 swings in it's the most mana efficient damage possible. I often ride a single creature to victory (some get removed, for sure, but by the end of the game if they can't remove that delver it's going all the way). I only flip on burn mode if I know it'll kill them, and I couldn't have gotten to that point unless my creatures could survive.

If I willingly let one die, it's guide. I personally aim for Lavamancer's in the opening hand (conveniently got a 4th one in a trade so I'll probably -1 guide +1 lavamancer, as I find they just perform better).

Lavamancers and Delvers are how I win most games, with the burn and counters as means to keep the path clear and keep the creatures alive. I almost want to run dispel just to stop instants but, too many threats are 2 cmc. I don't have access to spell snares atm but I will in the next month or two.

For a quick minute there I was thinking to myself that I might like a different color other than red better, like white, but it's not the same. The fact that our main source of removal doubles as a means to kill the opponent is absurd. Sometimes, ten damage just comes out of nowhere and they die, and I like that.

[berry]

Not saying you are playing it wrong, but it feels like you want to play Can Thresh/RUG tempo, really..?

Your style reminds me of seeing a friend who usually plays Tempo Thresh or similiar builds play it, and he raged when it wasn't the same deck.

I'm thinking Zillas way must be the way to go. But I could be wrong.

[SupREME-10]

Well I can easily swap out the 2 Vedilion Clique for +1 Grim Lavamancer and +1 Goblin Guide; but the Clique was actually doing exactly what Zilla was talking about. I allowed me to focus on Delver and Guide initially, then mid-late game dump them for grims and cliques to use for recurring damage and hand manipulation.

PoP is in the SB as I see a lot of mana hungry decks in my area; but I could easily trim it down to 2, remove something else and bring in a couple Submerge (nice thought here, and I can't believe that I missed it).

Thanks for the discussion guys.

[Kich867]

Not saying you are playing it wrong, but it feels like you want to play Can Thresh/RUG tempo, really..?

Your style reminds me of seeing a friend who usually plays Tempo Thresh or similiar builds play it, and he raged when it wasn't the same deck.

I'm thinking Zillas way must be the way to go. But I could be wrong.

I don't see why I would play RUG Tempo or Can Thresh. We have super efficient beaters with a ton of removal that can extend to hit the player. Those decks have like, Lightning Bolt and that's about it.

I just find dishing out 13-15 damage with burns to be highly unreliable and against any deck with even the slightest lifegain that plan stops working. I guess it might be the sheer dominance of Jitte around my area that drives that thinking though. Every deck I've played against with the deck generally has stoneforge + jitte, the only one in recent tournament experience that I played against that didn't was a mirror of this deck.

[Zilla]

Jitte is brutal against this deck, as it forces you to aim all your burn at every creature that can carry one. In my experience, the best way to answer Jitte is with 3 Smash to Smithereens from the board and 3 Spell Snare in the main.

Honestly if my meta were full of decks packing Jitte, I'd question whether or not I wanted to be playing this deck at all.

[supa_tim]

Hrm. I always thought of this deck as Blue Sligh basically. Using creatures to get the job done, burn to make sure the creatures connect, and burn for those last points of damage.

But you're saying this should be played like burn?

I feel like we have two separate decklists developing here: 1 that plays the burn plan and runs FoW in the side and 1 that plays the sligh plan with more MD counters to protect its creatures.

Is this like a Team America vs BUG Control thing?

[Richard Cheese]

My version is basically straight burn with blue for filters and counters in the board. I still think it's totally situational. Against creature-heavy decks like Zoo and Maverick, you're probably best off trying to burn the opponent out because you just aren't going to win the ground game with Guides. Really the only time I'm going to bother burning a creature is if I'm getting extra value out of it, like offing SFM and maybe Hierarch/Birds/Arbor early.

[Kich867]

Jitte is brutal against this deck, as it forces you to aim all your burn at every creature that can carry one. In my experience, the best way to answer Jitte is with 3 Smash to Smithereens from the board and 3 Spell Snare in the main.

Honestly if my meta were full of decks packing Jitte, I'd question whether or not I wanted to be playing this deck at all.

StS's have been all-stars, I board them in almost every game, half want to just mainboard them haha. Spell Snares I don't have access to at the moment but I will shortly. Spell Pierces are their current place, unfortunately not as stellar--still useful in many situations but, not useful enough it seems.

[Beatusnox]

Is this like a Team America vs BUG Control thing?

Not quite I believe it is more like RDW And Sligh, which all in all, are very similar in goal and gameplay, with RDW having just a little more burn and explosiveness IMO. They both want to use creatures and burn to either clear the way for attacks or to deal direct damage.

Anywho, I have tomorrow off from work, I am hoping I can edit the primer and fix it up more.

[BigBopper]

I feel like we have two separate decklists developing here: 1 that plays the burn plan and runs FoW in the side and 1 that plays the sligh plan with more MD counters to protect its creatures.

Is this like a Team America vs BUG Control thing?

I believe what makes the deck so good is its versatility, that you can decide if you want to aggro or control role in a game. One example is a topdecked Delver, go aggro and play it to push some more damage through or keep it in hand together with FoW. Of course it depends on the situation you're in. So that's the excellent way to have options and answers.
So every game you need to decide which way to go, whether the brutal burn plan or the counter/control plan. I wouldn't argue about directions and where to go, but to keep a balance of both. Personally, I play 10 burn spells and 9 counters, together with 14 creatures and it works really good against a wide variety of decks.
I also made the experience that jitte is already to slow against this deck. Of course it's the best to counter the SFM right away but if you can't, jitte needs to be played and equipped, which takes already 4 mana and usually 2 turns until it attacks, in that time you usually have a burn spell ready for it or an active lavamancer, to declare blockers and shoot your own creature or something like this.

[paK0]

If it has 3 lands and no Brainstorm I'll almost always mull it.

Well, I agree that this deck goes down to 6 quite a bit, but what exactly are you hoping by giving away 4 business spells and 3 lands?

I like playing with 2 lands and once a BS shows up naturally I want a fetch to go with it.

The average 6 is prolly 1 or 2 lands. Are you really more comfortable with playing 5 spells ans 1 land than 4 spells and 3 land?

Maybe thats just the control freak in me speaking, but I really would like some input on the matter.

[kwelts]

I generally like to mull only when i get 4+ lands. 3 is not the greatest but when i do i check to see what my 4 spells are. if its daze, 2 delvers and a brainstorm i'd keep it.

[Zilla]

The average 6 is prolly 1 or 2 lands. Are you really more comfortable with playing 5 spells ans 1 land than 4 spells and 3 land?
Yes, absolutely. There are exceptions, of course, but anything less than 5 business cards without a Brainstorm or at least a Ponder is probably not going to be a winning hand, from my experience.

Bearing in mind that I don't play Snapcaster, anything beyond the first two lands is mostly overkill. Keeping a 3 land hand is basically identical to mulling to 6 anyway. The chances of mulling into a 6 card hand with more business, or with the same number of business cards and a Brainstorm are reasonably high, and it's a chance I'm typically willing to take, unless the original 3 land hand is very strong on its own merits.

For example, I would likely keep a 3 land hand with a combination of 2-3 Delvers and/or Goblin Guides. I might keep a 3 land hand if I know what I'm playing against and I think the hand will be particularly strong against that deck. For me at least, generally speaking, a hand must have very strong business cards to keep a 3 lander.

[paK0]

Yes, absolutely. There are exceptions, of course, but anything less than 5 business cards without a Brainstorm or at least a Ponder is probably not going to be a winning hand, from my experience.

Bearing in mind that I don't play Snapcaster, anything beyond the first two lands is mostly overkill. Keeping a 3 land hand is basically identical to mulling to 6 anyway. The chances of mulling into a 6 card hand with more business, or with the same number of business cards and a Brainstorm are reasonably high, and it's a chance I'm typically willing to take, unless the original 3 land hand is very strong on its own merits.

For example, I would likely keep a 3 land hand with a combination of 2-3 Delvers and/or Goblin Guides. I might keep a 3 land hand if I know what I'm playing against and I think the hand will be particularly strong against that deck. For me at least, generally speaking, a hand must have very strong business cards to keep a 3 lander.

Ok, I can see your reasoning.

The thing is that 1 landers are always a little sketchy to me. If its a Volcanic, the chances of just loosing to a wasteland are pretty high and if its a basic, there is a good chance that some cards might be stuck in your hand for too long.

I'll prolly gonna do some testing myself to see where the 1-land approach will take me^^.

[millerd33]

Not sure how to put the card tag around on this forum yet but was wondering what the thoughts were about Phantasmal Image. The target drawback is not much of one in this format because most things that target dudes would kill what we are copying anyway... aka swords, bolts, path, ect.

Cards we would like to copy:
Guide
flipped Delver
Lavamancer (not 2 strong but not horrible)
Goyf
Legendary dudes
Bob
Other?

These decks are already tight for space so far but just wanted some feedback to see if anyone has already tried a few of these guys yet.

[Zilla]

The thing is that 1 landers are always a little sketchy to me. If its a Volcanic, the chances of just loosing to a wasteland are pretty high and if its a basic, there is a good chance that some cards might be stuck in your hand for too long.
This is a valid concern, but in my build at least, there are 11 fetches and 3 basics, so you've got a fairly good chance of having a Wasteland-proof first turn, even with only one land. Granted, there are certain times where a one land hand is not a risk you'll want to take. Under those circumstances, a 3 land hand may be just fine to keep, depending on the other cards in it.


wondering what the thoughts were about Phantasmal Image
The deck isn't really lacking for creatures. If anything it wants more room for burn and counters. I could theoretically see Phyrexian Metamorph as a sideboard option, because it can answer problematic creatures and doubles as Jitte removal, but in a general sense I think the deck has all the creatures it needs in Delver/Guide/Lavamancer/Snapcaster.

Card Name for single card tags, btw. You can also use [cards] around multiple card names divided by line breaks for decklists.

[Kich867]

This is a valid concern, but in my build at least, there are 11 fetches and 3 basics, so you've got a fairly good chance of having a Wasteland-proof first turn, even with only one land. Granted, there are certain times where a one land hand is not a risk you'll want to take. Under those circumstances, a 3 land hand may be just fine to keep, depending on the other cards in it.


The deck isn't really lacking for creatures. If anything it wants more room for burn and counters. I could theoretically see Phyrexian Metamorph as a sideboard option, because it can answer problematic creatures and doubles as Jitte removal, but in a general sense I think the deck has all the creatures it needs in Delver/Guide/Lavamancer/Snapcaster.

Card Name for single card tags, btw. You can also use [cards] around multiple card names divided by line breaks for decklists.

I don't think works anymore. And yeah, we already have enough very good creatures for the deck. Unless Dark Ascension gives us another spectacular creature card I don't see much changing there.

In my list I'm looking to drop Price of Progress out of the deck, it's 3 slots that could be something else that against the decks I play against, I never need them. I'll board those 3, but I'm sick of seeing it in my opening hand and knowing I'll never land any real damage with it unless my opponent has a virtually non-basicless mana-base, which in my area, is highly unlikely. Most of the decks are 2 color control or combo decks--or it's just like super jank decks people use when they just get into legacy..Even the people that play Bant and Rug have a large number of basics to play with.

I dropped Fireblast out, I might throw them back in.. My list looks something like this right now:

//Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Goblin Guide
3x Snapcaster Mage

//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Rift Bolt
3x Price of Progress
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare

//Lands:
18x Lands -- never an issue

I'm thinking I should drop PoP for a fourth Rift Bolt and 2x Fireblast.

[millerd33]

Thanks for the info Zilla.

This is what I'm thinking about running this weekend at my local shop.

Land:
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 volcanic island
2 mountian
2 island


Spells:
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress

Dudes:
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 grim lavamancer


SB:
4 Force of Will
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bounce (prob echoing truth or repel)

Maybe -1 ponder +1 price of progress

[Kich867]

Thanks for the info Zilla.

This is what I'm thinking about running this weekend at my local shop.

Land:
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 volcanic island
2 mountian
2 island


Spells:
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress

Dudes:
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
2 Phantismal Image
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 grim lavamancer


SB:
4 Force of Will
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bounce (prob echoing truth or repel)[cards]

Maybe -1 [card]ponder +1 price of progress

The one at the ends need to end with [./cards] without the and I'm fairly certain the singular card tag doesn't work.

[Beatusnox]

The one at the ends need to end with [./cards] without the and I'm fairly certain the singular card tag doesn't work.

Just use the [ cards ] [ /cards ]

Around even single cards. It still works, but requires that you use the 's'

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Phantasmal Image.


Thought about it last night. Played a modified list with phantasmal image and some extra counters.

Meh.

[troopatroop]

I like the discussion in this thread. I'd like to call a point to the differences in each of our metagames, and how that's affecting our lists of the deck. For this deck especially, you can build it a number of ways, so I think it's especially important that we focus on developing lists that are optimal in a "developed" Legacy metagame. Dropping Price of Progress could be correct for your area, even imperative to your success, but lets not hear about it here, because it's not important to the thread. Also, budget restrictions are not worth posting about. In general, don't post a list unless you think it's the absolute best it can be, with cost not being a factor.

Upon further examination, Price really is metagame dependant tho. Stoneforge decks do pack a ton of basics, and I could see needing to cut it MD. Trouble is, it's so damn easy to board out, and steals so many game 1's, especially in the Snapcaster variants. Time will tell, but I still like me my 3x FoW Counterish lists, that lean on PoP to win.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

It may be suboptimal in some matchups(high tide for example) but I've won more games with the PoP/snapcasterish type of list opposed to a more counter-heavy strategy. I find I'm just not able to keep a pair of legs on the board to continue swinging long enough to make any impact and my burn is too unreliable to reach out and just end the game or blow up creatures.

I do feel I have to mull a bit more than I want with my current list but some matchups it's not really a liability to keep an extra land or two. Pox/thresh variants/maverick etc have many ways of keeping you from getting off the ground so it could be more helpful in the long run to hold a hand that had maybe 3 lands max against certain matchups. Possibly 4 but only if you held a brainstorm/ponder/preordain. I'm getting the hang of playing this type of deck a little more now and I think the most important rule is to treat each of your spells like a brainstorm and cast them ONLY when you must. One bad habit I've had to train myself not to do is to respond immediately to a creature with burn whenever it comes into play. Even with snapcaster you must economize your damage output. If anyone's had luck playing a control-oriented deck I'd like to hear your thoughts/opinions/state of your local meta.

[millerd33]

With price of progress and snapcaster in the same list I tend to find that it's far 2 mana intensive. I never really want to hit 4 mana in this deck. I would rather hold them in hand after my 2/3 land drop and make my brainstorms insane. Games normally go my way that start with tap island.. daze your dude... return island... brainstorm... put back instant and island on deck... flip delver... draw instant from top.. drop fetch shuffle.

I play both price and snapcaster as 3 of's but I am not sold on that for sure. Price is a great finisher and with all the ponder/brainstorm I think 2 may be the right number to play.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

what would you run in place of a 3rd price?

[millerd33]

I would like get my ponder number back up to 4. Those 1 drop deck manipulation spells alongside 12 fetches have made my life so much easier and also makes it so I don't have to Mull as much.

[troopatroop]

I don't actively want 4 ponder in my deck. We don't win from nowhere, like reanimator or storm for instance, we win given time. Paying 1 mana to have a smooth game from then on is worth it, but the deck is plenty smooth as it is, and casting Goblin Guide with that mana is more akin to our overall gameplan. Two color decks are super consistant already, have dense card quality, and early game mana can always be better used.

Burn lists should probably forgo Snapcaster altogether, imo, for the reasons you're stating. If you can't support having 4 lands in play, than you can't play Snappy + PoP. My list plays 3 Force, 2 Daze, and 3 Snare, so 8 counters. The more counters you play the "slower" your gameplan, in exchange for some safety. Lists with Rift Bolt and Fireblast, in turn, shouldn't be running Force (and probably snare), because you're a 7 card combo deck again. Putting yourself in the middle of the spectrum is bad, is my point, because your deck loses focus in its plan.

[millerd33]

I see what your saying about picking a side and going all in on that strategy. Are you still running the same list you have from page 2 of this thread or have you made changes. If so could you please PM me the updated list. I have to make my final card decisions tonight for tomorrow tourny so all the information I can get about the different builds of this deck would be very helpful.

I Guess it comes down to what style is going to play better against the local meta as it seems both styles have their good and bad.

[supa_tim]

In the more controlling builds:
Is goblin guide still the best choice? He certainly is great in the aggro/burn builds because he is basically a burn spell that has the potential to deal more consistent damage.
However, I sometimes feel he is a liability in the controlling builds. Giving them land which helps their board position and can hinder your dazes/spell pierce. He also isn't evasive like delver, which means he has trouble going the distance later in the game.

I've been experimenting with mogg fanatic for a bit because he seems to fit the strategy better for the counter builds. He takes out utility creatures, still swings in when there are no blockers, and can go straight for the dome if necessary (getting rid of bridges is nice too).

Cons are: he isn't very big, so he can't do nearly as much damage as guide can. He can't trade with X/2s anymore. No haste (although *slightly* offset by his sac ability).

Obviously, I'm not sure if it is the right move yet, since guide can still set you up in the early game for a win in the later game, but I wanted to hear other people's opinions.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

4 ponders are too many in my opinion. The only time I get hiccups with this deck is if I didn't mulligan as aggressively as I should have and I'm stuck with only one land for first 3-4 turns which are the most crucial.

Do you see a lot of dredge players in your area? because mogg fanatic seems like an unrepentantly subpar card for this deck except against dredge. I started off really not liking goblin guide and honestly it won't win you the game but it does a few important things like forcing your opponent to interact possibly earlier than they wanted to, provides a target for spot removal other than delver which is awesome because that thing will either win you the game outright or drive your opponent's life down far enough that you can burn them the rest of the way if you can keep swinging with it. I'd say the arguments against fanatic outweigh it's positive aspects.

[troopatroop]

Still running the same MD, down to the card. Andrew cut a Fireblast for the 4th Fow, but I didn't like it.

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island


Despite being a more "controlling" build, if you can even call it that, Goblin Guide is a critical part of the deck. He can get in alot of damage early, and multiples are actually good. The deck NEEDS another 1 drop to compliment Delver, and Guide fills that role like no other creature can. I don't think this deck, in any form, can really afford to cut him. Granted, this is very far from what I originally thought, but Snapcaster Mage and Grim Lavamancer are not sufficient enough "permanant pressure" for the deck to win reliably without him. I've had Guides go unanswered and win the game quickly many-a-time. If they play a blocker, it's usually a ripe target for Submerge. Lavamancer and Delver are way better at closing obviously, but Guide typically does a great job early game. I'll also say, that Fireblast is one of my MVP spells, and I love being able to support it in a Snapcaster version. I like playing the 2x, because I'll RARELY see them in multiples, but it's a card I always want to have up my sleeve.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Fireblast is definitely needed in this deck. You don't run goyf/knight of the reliquary so you need answers for those cards due to how commonly you'll run into them, not to mention they'll block your creatures all day. Scryb sprite gets my vote for most annoying creature to deal with but at least it's only 1 toughness so it dies to every removal piece we have; lavamancer on the cover is very subpar but it solves another problem with this deck and that's spell priority. You only have so much burn to put out and if you can consistently take out utility bears like gaddock teeg/bob/etc then you can save those extra cards to zap your opponent. Sometimes a resolved lavamancer and a few cards in the yard can keep the board clear enough for you to get at least one more phase of combat damage through before they start developing their board and your initial attack is slowed.

[troopatroop]

Fireblast is definitely needed in this deck. You don't run goyf/knight of the reliquary so you need answers for those cards due to how commonly you'll run into them, not to mention they'll block your creatures all day.

Hate to nitpick, but that's the last thing I want to use my Fireblast on, unless it's getting an attack through and ending the game right there. Even there you run the risk of them having spot removal, and surviving while you have no lands. It's really just the finisher for me, almost always to the life total FTW. Lavamancer is amazing at getting them into range. Once they get to around 12-11 life, there are so many cheap combinations of cards + Fireblast that win the game right there. Goyf and Knight are why 4-3x Submerge SB are staples.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I too would rather aim fireblast at the dome but sometimes I'll get caught without any counters and i'm staring at a jace or some other big problematic planeswalker and I can either let it get bigger and let it kill me or sac 2 lands and blast it off the board as a last resort.

[Beatusnox]

Thank you for all the good discussion about the deck guys. It really makes me feel like an ass for being on my phone and not being able to update the Primer =(. If anyone wants to create a better version I could c/p it into the mainpage but my phone sucks so I cant go back and really edit it.

Also, my current build.

13
//Creature
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

//Planeswalkers 2
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

//Instant 18
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spellsnare

//Sorcery 4
4 Ponder

//Lands
4 Volcanic island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain



This is what I am currently messing around with for a more control centric Aggro-Control Build. I think I will cut down or cut out the dazes though for more burn as in testing I am wishing I had more burn.

[John Cox]

Still running the same MD, down to the card. Andrew cut a Fireblast for the 4th Fow, but I didn't like it.

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning

2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island


Despite being a more "controlling" build, if you can even call it that, Goblin Guide is a critical part of the deck. He can get in alot of damage early, and multiples are actually good. The deck NEEDS another 1 drop to compliment Delver, and Guide fills that role like no other creature can. I don't think this deck, in any form, can really afford to cut him. Granted, this is very far from what I originally thought, but Snapcaster Mage and Grim Lavamancer are not sufficient enough "permanant pressure" for the deck to win reliably without him. I've had Guides go unanswered and win the game quickly many-a-time. If they play a blocker, it's usually a ripe target for Submerge. Lavamancer and Delver are way better at closing obviously, but Guide typically does a great job early game. I'll also say, that Fireblast is one of my MVP spells, and I love being able to support it in a Snapcaster version. I like playing the 2x, because I'll RARELY see them in multiples, but it's a card I always want to have up my sleeve.

I agree with you on most of what you've posted, but how are you paying for fireblast with snapcaster? It's my understanding that alternate casting cost don't function under flashblack so you would have to pay :4::r::r: + snapcaster to cast it. That's one of the original reasons I switched to Dismember in that slot. Dismember is also very reliable at getting rid of knight, tombstalker, goyf, terravore and a few others that fireblast may not be able to. Even now without snapcasters I love the card. I think I see this deck differently than most people. I see this as more of a aggro control deck with burn and cheap threats.

One of the reasons I think this deck does so well is because of how much of it costs cc1. If you think of that over time you'll have around 5 spell cast by turn three while your opponent hast 2-3, If any of yours are counter spells or creature control you've massively out tempo'ed them. This means it has an inherent tempo element built in in it's speed. As I mentioned I see this differently here's my list:


3 dismember
4 lightning bolt
4 price of progress

4 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 daze
4 spell pierce
4 force of will

3 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
4 delver of secrets

4 mishra's factory
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 mountain
2 volcanic island

//sideboard
1 grim lavamancer
3 relic of progenitus
2 faire macabre
1 surgical extraction
1 curfew
2 pyrostatic pillar
1 dismember
1 submerge
2 echoing truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress


I can't emphasize enough how strongly suggest you try out mishra's factory it's a great creature and can pay for opposing dazes/ pierces, and cast dismember, daze, PoP, and the majority of my current sideboard.

Also @ Beatusnox
I really like that list

[Kich867]

I agree with you on most of what you've posted, but how are you paying for fireblast with snapcaster? It's my understanding that alternate casting cost don't function under flashblack so you would have to pay :4::r::r: + snapcaster to cast it. That's one of the original reasons I switched to Dismember in that slot. Dismember is also very reliable at getting rid of knight, tombstalker, goyf, terravore and a few others that fireblast may not be able to. Even now without snapcasters I love the card. I think I see this deck differently than most people. I see this as more of a aggro control deck with burn and cheap threats.

One of the reasons I think this deck does so well is because of how much of it costs cc1. If you think of that over time you'll have around 5 spell cast by turn three while your opponent hast 2-3, If any of yours are counter spells or creature control you've massively out tempo'ed them. This means it has an inherent tempo element built in in it's speed. As I mentioned I see this differently here's my list:


3 dismember
4 lightning bolt
4 price of progress

4 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 daze
4 spell pierce
4 force of will

3 grim lavamancer
4 goblin guide
4 delver of secrets

4 mishra's factory
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 mountain
2 volcanic island

//sideboard
1 grim lavamancer
3 relic of progenitus
2 faire macabre
1 surgical extraction
1 curfew
2 pyrostatic pillar
1 dismember
1 submerge
2 echoing truth
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress


I can't emphasize enough how strongly suggest you try out mishra's factory it's a great creature and can pay for opposing dazes/ pierces, and cast dismember, daze, PoP, and the majority of my current sideboard.

Also @ Beatusnox
I really like that list

I'm wondering, how are you even surviving running Dismember, 4 PoP, and 4 factories/2VI's? Even just bare minimum, running a single factory and a single VI, PoP hits you for 4, dismember hits you for 4, and your 8 fetches add up quickly.

I don't really get the point of the mishra's factories when you have more than enough cheap little beaters. Price of Progress seems not so fantastic when you yourself may have 2-3 non basics in play..

[Beatusnox]

I agree with Kich tbh, While factory is good, in a more aggressive build, you really do not need them, and they will hurt you more with Price of Progress than anything else. If you want to run factory as an Alt win, I would recommend dropping Price for any other burn spell that could be abused, or even more creatures of some kind, even in my more control Build I am running More Creatures and more ways to abuse what I have with those creatures. You seem at the moment stuck between the two mentalities of the deck unsure of where to continue. If this is the route you wish to take, please, feel free, but I would definitely think more of how to make it less of U/R suicide than it is.

I apologize for any statements in the above that offend of come off overly strong, but they are valid(imo).

@Supa_Tim.

I do not like Mogg Here. While in slight or even RDW with blue, it could definitely see play, we dont want to blow our load so to speak and then sit there. While he can be sacrificed for one to take out a utility creature, I would much rather swing in with guide. And kill the creature without losing my own creature. Goblin Guide also in my experience plays a dual role against opponents, if they sideboard for you as a fast aggro control deck, and you turn out and in game two, play a slower more Control heavy way, they will most likely have kept a poor hand against you. I have had several people assume I am playing some random Jank because of playing aggro with Guide, and just brainstorming. More and more people are catching on to this archetype existing, but many are still unsure if it is just burn with brainstorm or if it is an actual deck. Anyway, I digress, I do not think Mogg is good here, he just doesn't seem to put in the same amount of work that Lavamancer or Guide can, now, if you want to try running guide and Mogg, that could have interesting results, but I do not feel that Guide would be replaced my him.

[kwelts]

regarding nonbasic lands and PoP maindecked, i think that 4 Volcanic Islands is too many. you never want more than 1-2 in play, and with 10 fetchlands, it should be very easy to still open with one.

My landbase:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
3 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
_________________
= 18 lands, 10 Fetch, 6 Basic

[Stuuch]

regarding nonbasic lands and PoP maindecked, i think that 4 Volcanic Islands is too many. you never want more than 1-2 in play, and with 10 fetchlands, it should be very easy to still open with one.

My landbase:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
3 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
_________________
= 18 lands, 10 Fetch, 6 Basic

Volcanic Island does not allways stick if your opponent draws multiple Wastelands. I think it is actually a good thing sometimes if we have lands they want to waste. This deck survives with much fewer lands than other decks so they will hurt their own game while wasting our Volcanics. Against RUG tempo this is not true but allmost every other deck that runs wasteland misses a vital land for mana if they decide to waste Volcanics.

[kwelts]

Volcanic Island does not allways stick if your opponent draws multiple Wastelands. I think it is actually a good thing sometimes if we have lands they want to waste. This deck survives with much fewer lands than other decks so they will hurt their own game while wasting our Volcanics. Against RUG tempo this is not true but allmost every other deck that runs wasteland misses a vital land for mana if they decide to waste Volcanics.

wouldnt by the time you get double wasted have at least a basic island and mountain in play? I dont quite see many decks that T1 wasteland and then T2 wasteland aside from MUD.

[Stuuch]

wouldnt by the time you get double wasted have at least a basic island and mountain in play? I dont quite see many decks that T1 wasteland and then T2 wasteland aside from MUD.

Yes of course. I just think with this deck you dont have to worry about Wasteland so much. You want to fetch a basic first but after that when you naturally draw in to Volcanics they are good for that one crucial turn when you have access to double blue or double red mana. Then your opponent has to think if they want to waste the Volcanic or play some other lands.

[kwelts]

Yes of course. I just think with this deck you dont have to worry about Wasteland so much. You want to fetch a basic first but after that when you naturally draw in to Volcanics they are good for that one crucial turn when you have access to double blue or double red mana. Then your opponent has to think if they want to waste the Volcanic or play some other lands.

you want to fetch a volcanic first. fetch basics only afterwards. you will have double whatever from the beginning unless your opponent blows his/her first turn with a wasteland.

Regardless i'm almost certain that 4 Vi's is too many. I'll stick with 2.

[ateu89]

you want to fetch a volcanic first. fetch basics only afterwards. you will have double whatever from the beginning unless your opponent blows his/her first turn with a wasteland.

Regardless i'm almost certain that 4 Vi's is too many. I'll stick with 2.

I'm currently running 2 Volcanic Island. Feels good, feels right.

[SupREME-10]

I would go more like this.

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island

18 lands, 9 Fetch, 3 Dual, and 6 basic. But I like variety in the fetch lands. I do agree that 4 V-Islands is not required; but I don't like having more fetches than mana producing lands.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

This isn't a really complicated deck to learn how to play unlike cephalid breakfast or any other degenerate 20-minute-per-turn combo deck so my philosophy concerning what to put in and what not to has basically been "keep it simple, stupid". Would I rather pop jace into play one turn and start building him up, or hold my mana and play snapcaster and flashback price during my opponent's attack phase?
Would I rather summon a vendilion clique, or ponder and front like i may be holding a counter? This deck is very aggressive. That's true. But you have to be a little smarter than just dazing/fowing everything people throw down, or burning every weenie that resolves. Let them come to you first, then ju-jitsu their ass and have them staring at price for 8 plus another body on the board. Then when they think you're tapped out and they think it's safe to play a big guy, BAM sac two and fireblast their ace in the hole. Play with cards that let you react and steal their advantage.

[troopatroop]

you want to fetch a volcanic first. fetch basics only afterwards. you will have double whatever from the beginning unless your opponent blows his/her first turn with a wasteland.

Regardless i'm almost certain that 4 Vi's is too many. I'll stick with 2.

You're wrong. The best play is Island - Delver - Go. I fetch for it all the time. 4 Volcanics is absolutely correct, because it's our only land that hurts us, and naturally drawing it can actually save you, as opposed to screw you when you can't cast double red or even red at all. I'm almost certain that you're wrong on this one, and the points about Wasteland are so true. We WANT to get wasted, because it gives us another draw step of action spells, and we should be able to find more lands. Between their Wastes and often fetching the basic Island, I see good reason for 4 Volcanics. Why not lower your variance?

[kwelts]

You're wrong. The best play is Island - Delver - Go. I fetch for it all the time. 4 Volcanics is absolutely correct, because it's our only land that hurts us, and naturally drawing it can actually save you, as opposed to screw you when you can't cast double red or even red at all. I'm almost certain that you're wrong on this one, and the points about Wasteland are so true. We WANT to get wasted, because it gives us another draw step of action spells, and we should be able to find more lands. Between their Wastes and often fetching the basic Island, I see good reason for 4 Volcanics. Why not lower your variance?

my play is VI, guide, attack go. tha way it leaves up daze as an option, which forces a wasteland or to miss first turn. also guide can hopefully get them more nonbasics for PoP. I dont like to cast delver until i can ponder or brainstorm same turn as it.

I once drew 2 VI's in my opening hand with some other sick cards but then I topdecked the third one and it basically shut of my PoP win-con. you never want to see 3 VI's in a game.

[subzero]

hi guys, i play this deck, but i m very confused about few cards

i never play this deck in tournament,
but someone that have good results(win or top8)can write decklist?

because i see every guy play different list,
i d like understand what is the more power decklist

with or without 2 daze?
with or without force of will?

i can t decide

Welcome to The Source. Please be advised that we require posters to use proper capitalization and punctuation when posting on these boards. Please make an effort to use them in the future. Thanks. -zilla

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

You probably should have mulled if you had more than one dual in your opener. Seriously the best play is island - delver - go. ponder and brainstorm away the majority of your lands in favor of business cards. That said if I'm not holding two delvers or one with a counter I tend to hold them until I'm able to make sure they stick. You really really don't want your opponent to answer it, ever.

[paK0]

So, I finally got some tounament experience with the deck toay, but I dropped, mostly because I played like shit.

Anyways some insight (using 4eaks list, different SB though):

The Manabase I would advise is:
3 Volcanic
2 Mountain
1 Island
12 Fetch

2 Island were too much (I NEVER wanted two) but 2 Volcanic were too little, in the 4 rounds I wanted the 3rd at least 3 times.

If you run an aggresive version like this, Spell Snare is completely out of place. I'll drop at least 2, but more likely all of them. The only Goyfs you see are from GSZ (and SS won't get those anyways) and beating Mystic is actually a cakewalk even if he resolves.

I'm not sure what I'll replace the SSs with. I might try Snappy, you get to 3 mana surprisingly often and you won't always have a BS to trade them for something usefull.

[millerd33]

First shot at a tourny report so stick with me if it's terrible.

25ish players 5 rounds of swiss cut to a top 8
Went 2-2 drop (Played in round 4 just for more play time on the cards)

Decklist:


Land:
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 volcanic island
2 mountian
2 island


Spells:
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress
2 vapor snag

Dudes:
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 grim lavamancer


SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 echoing truth
1 grim lavamancer
1 price of progress

Round 1 vs Team Italia 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 delver turn 2 guide blind flip delver and beats in short order. Price of progress finishes.

Game 2: I board in POP and 3 smash take out 4 daze. turn 1 guide and go brainstorm ponder fetch crazy win of price of progress again.

Round 2 vs GW Maverick 0-2
Game 1: Lavamancer 1 and 2 get plowed. turn 4 green sun zenith for thrun ownes me.

Game 2: I board in 4 force of will 1 grim lavamancer take out 4 spellsnare and 1 daze.
Turn 1 I land delver. He goes bird. Turn 2 his choke meets my force removing force. turn 3 sword of fire and ice. fetching dryad arbor. arbor beats face as the shock from sword keeps my board clean.

Round 3 vs belcher 0-2

Game 1: I get guide with all kinds of gas. He plays turn 2 lotus petal, I daze he spirit guides to pay. Rituals go crazy ending with belcher for 24 off lions eye diamond.

Game 2: I board in 4 force of will and 3 echoing truth Board out 2 vapor snag, 4 spell snare, 1 grim lavamancer. I mull to 5 looking for force and keep with 2 daze 2 fetches and a brain storm. turn 3 he belches for 30+ after my double daze does nothing vs both a red and green spirit guide trying to stop his petal.

Round 4 vs Thopters 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 delver, turn 2 guide delver (no flip). Turn 3 both flip. Very soon after price does the final 2 damage off his 1 academy ruins.

Game 2: I board in 1 grim lavamancer and 3 smash board out 2 price of progress, 2 vapor snag. Early beats get the job done again finishing with end of his turn bolt into snapcaster bolt on my turn.

What I took away from this tourny.

1) Force of Will must be main deck. (at least 3)
2) 8 1 mana deck manipulation spells make this deck so smooth.
3) This deck is so much fun to play and very powerful (if you take your time. There some plays you can make are just insane)
4) Thrun and KotR should be banned!
5) Price of Progress wins games. (I do feel 2 is the right number for game 1 at least)
Changes I would make to my list:

+3 Force of will

-2 Vapor Snag
-1 Daze (some will say this should be ponder but to be honest those spells dug my way into wins a turn sooner or smoothed any draws I had all day)

So there it is my first terrible tourny report. No need to pull punches.

Have at it!

[troopatroop]

Nice job. Idk if I'd board in FoW against Maverick, but you did need it for Choke. I think the difference in 7-8 cantrips is very slight, so the 4th Ponder makes for an easy cut. I don't like your juxtaposition between 4 Ponder and 4 Spell Snare, for instance. The changes from my list to yours are very slight once you add Force. Belcher is a matchup radically improved by FoW, as you well saw. Storm/Reanimator is more why I play it MD.

-1 Spell Snare
-1 Ponder
-1 Daze

+1 Price of Progress
+2 Fireblast

Seems fine, nice writeup. I'd hoped to see a win vs. Maverick, but what can you do. Also, 3 Volcanics could very well be correct, but that's a very big difference from only 2, increasing your chance to naturally draw it by 50%. I like the -1 Island -1 Volcanic + 2 Fetchland idea, because will you ever want more than 6! lands in play? Fetches are always great with Lavamancer in the picture as well. 2 Islands was probably a mistake as well, nice catch. When do you want more than 2? I suppose Snapcaster + X is the only instance, but Volcanics make everything easy regardless. I'm going to stick with 3x Price of Progress, because I believe it to be gold in my area. Fireblast as well, did you ever find you were holding cards that would've ended the game as Fireblast, or even made it easier to close if it was? The biggest issue I've found with the deck is those last few points of damage, and 4dmg for 0cc is pretty sick sometimes. Daze doesn't do anything sometimes lategame, and Ponder is just filler. If you think about it that way, with Fireblast also being "free" like Daze, and how we're such a damage oriented deck, how can you not make room for it maindeck? With Snare/Daze/AND Ponder at 4x over the free finisher, how do you justify that? I suppose it's safer, but you lose power, imo. Just a question! :P

Also, SB needs MOAR SUBMERGE!!

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Submerge
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex

This is the board I'm currently looking at. Opinions?

[millerd33]

I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.

From what I saw today the third Volc island in place of the second island would be an improvement to an already great mana base. I would have no trouble make that change for sure. I did see a few decks showing up with maze of Ith today and was glad I didn't see one of them wastelandless.

Every game I won was a blowout. In fact the only damage I took in those 4 wins was off of fetch lands.

For fireblast I kept my lands in play at no more then 3 all day long. (got double wasted one game and just shuffled away dazes or snares instead of the lands.) Maybe it's how I'm playing the deck holding the lands till I draw into my brainstorms to keep my hand full of gas all the time. With how I was playing it there was never a time where I had 2 mountains i could sac and still cast things i needed.

Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.

[troopatroop]

I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.

Okay, but then you're still going down a card to stop a single card. Situationally, this can be worth it, but not overall.



For fireblast I kept my lands in play at no more then 3 all day long. (got double wasted one game and just shuffled away dazes or snares instead of the lands.) Maybe it's how I'm playing the deck holding the lands till I draw into my brainstorms to keep my hand full of gas all the time. With how I was playing it there was never a time where I had 2 mountains i could sac and still cast things i needed.

Well you're thinking of misplaying the card. It's used as the last card you're going to play in the sequence of the game. Casting it before that is almost always incorrect, so don't even think about that. Were there ever points where that 4 points of damage would've been better than the Daze or Snare you held? Did you feel a need for that reach?, or did you find the support of these cards early-mid game more valuable?


Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.

No. Every land in play is an action spell lost. Shuffling lands away with Brainstorm is pro, GJ.

[millerd33]

What would you have brought in against Maverick or changed in the board to give better matchups against that type of deck?

I am gonna mimic your list and do some testing to see if the fireblasts do turn up the clock. It is possible knowing I have blast in hand I play the game out different knowing when I have him at 7 he is not 3 spells away from death.

I have picked up a lot of very good info and play tips from these forums from my lurking and now posting. Keep up the good work guys I can not tell you how much more prepared for the tourny I was just by reading the insight of players on these boards.

[Zilla]

The Manabase I would advise is:
3 Volcanic
2 Mountain
1 Island
12 Fetch

2 Island were too much (I NEVER wanted two) but 2 Volcanic were too little, in the 4 rounds I wanted the 3rd at least 3 times.

I think I agree on all counts. At least in the burn heavy build, I've never liked a second basic Island. I never want more than one, and getting 2 basic Islands in an opening grip can force a mull that would oterhwise have been totally unnecessary.

I also think that 4 Volcs is probably more than necessary, and 2 is too few. 3 is probably the perfect number.


If you run an aggresive version like this, Spell Snare is completely out of place. I'll drop at least 2, but more likely all of them. The only Goyfs you see are from GSZ (and SS won't get those anyways) and beating Mystic is actually a cakewalk even if he resolves.
Disagree with this. Being able to hit Mystic can be very important. Sure you can burn him before he can cheat equipment into play, but once he hits the table, he's largely done his damage by fetching a Sword or a Jitte for your opponent to hardcast the following turn. The fact that it can also stop Jitte itself makes it a very important card. Hitting the occasional Goyf is nice as well. I don't think Snare is a 4-of in the aggressive build, but a 2 or 3 of has worked very well for me.



Am I misplaying by holding back land 4 and 5? When/if i get land 6 (3 in play 3 in hand) is when i'll play the 4th. Unless I am gonna flashback POP for the win.
No, this is right on the money. Not only can you turn them into business spells with Brainstorm, but holding excess lands also lets you bluff countermagic, forces your opponent to play around non-existent Dazes, etc.


I brought in the Forces against Maverick to hit GSZ and KotR. Him casting choke first was a happy accident.
The Maverick matchup is usually a war of attrition. Making 1 for 2 trades in their favor (with Force) is likely a losing propositon. You need pretty much every card you can get to seal the deal against them.


What would you have brought in against Maverick or changed in the board to give better matchups against that type of deck?
Submerge. Use it in on a Knight or Goyf in response to either a Fetchland or to KotR's activated ability. The creature gets put on top of the library and then shuffled away. 1 for 1 trade, no mana on your part. It makes a huge difference in this matchup.

[Beatusnox]

You boarded wrong against belcher. Spellsnare is insanely clutch in this matchup, and I say that not as a UR delver pilot but as a belcher pilot. If they play ritual heavy builds you can hit Manamorphose, Pyretic Ritual, Desperate Ritual, and Burning wish. In not ritual heavy take pyretic and maybe manamorphose off the list. Not trying to put you down but stopping any of those cards can be crucial, and from what your report seemed to say they didnt go off turn one. Anywho, more on topic of the manabase, in more of the burn heavy hyper aggressive builds, you want more red, so the one island does make sense, however, I also believe that four volcanics would be the best way to set your main deck. Not fetching them but drawing into them naturally, while not wanting to see more than 2 in a game, you want to see 2 and unless you actively fetch for them or dig for them too many should be a non-issue.

[yutang]

What are the bad matchups for this deck? Thinking about picking this deck up

[BigBopper]

Usually I open with fetch for VI since my opponents has to play around daze and even if I cast delver or ponder, I like VI since there are some red spells in my hand for sure.
My build also involves only 2 VI atm, but this is due budget issues and I've seen myself in trouble after a wasteland when i just needed one land to get things done and I drew a blue fetch, while 2 VI in my grave and just lost because of this. So 3 or more VI is the way to go.
I also would like to know is a hydroblast in the sideboard could be a good call. Also Flusterstorm is pretty good vs. many matchups. But my question is what to board out, since the deck is already pretty tight.
I feel like I could play more daze (currently running 2) but here's the same question: what to take out?
About maverick: I feel like after round 2 I only have like 3-4 cards in hand while they usually have 6. But I'm far beyond gaming in this since they are already at 12-14 life and barely have a creature, while I have a huge board position. In those cases it is hard to trade 1:1 all the time but usually you just need to negate their lifegain: Jitte (SFM), Batterscull (SFM) and Ooze (GSZ). So Spell Snare and Daze are MVP. (I only tested vs. the GWr-version, yet)

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I've had a lot of trouble winning against maverick. They have answers for everything. It really comes down to a coinflip, honestly. The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo. I really, really hate playing against combo decks. There are so many times I've wished I'd had a fire/ice in hand instead of a bolt. Sometimes they just go off and all you can do is sit there watching them turn shit sideways and cast summoners pacts and this and that and jesus christ just drop emrakul already goddamnit, I don't have all day.

[Kich867]

I've had a lot of trouble winning against maverick. They have answers for everything. It really comes down to a coinflip, honestly. The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo. I really, really hate playing against combo decks. There are so many times I've wished I'd had a fire/ice in hand instead of a bolt. Sometimes they just go off and all you can do is sit there watching them turn shit sideways and cast summoners pacts and this and that and jesus christ just drop emrakul already goddamnit, I don't have all day.

^ That sentiment is why I stopped playing elves combo. I was actually pretty fucking good at it, there's a lot to the deck, but at the end of the day it felt awful watching the person across the table just sit there while I did my thing.

[Zilla]

The most irritating matchup though, has to be elves combo.
I don't see Elves combo here at all, but it seems like you have the available SB tools you need to turn that into a positive matchup if you want to. Flamebreak my be too slow, but Pyroclasm or even Pyrokinesis should be pretty effective.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I tend to run into some sort of elf combo variant often enough. I think it's less of a question of which board sweeper to run and more a question of how do I burn them down faster. I checked our lord and saviour Shrout's latest list variation and saw pyrostatic pillar being played in the SB in addition to sulfuric vortex. I've actually lost a few games to pyrostatic pillar so I can vouch for how effective it can be in certain matchups. Coupled with sulfuric vortex would be hilarious.

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

hey all, I was hoping to get some feedback on my list. I decided to go for Force MD after much mulling and reading and playing. I feel like being able to counter a GSZ or stand a chance at countering a Show and Tell. ( tap ancient tomb and island for SnT, daze?, Forced..) With Force of Will MD you stand a chance against unfair or gamebreaking spells from resolving. The burn heavier version of this deck definitely has its merits, but I like this build more; you got 3-4 more SB slots haha

x3 Force of Will
x3 Spell Snare
x4 Daze
x4 Brainstorm
x2 Ponder
x4 Chain Lightning
x4 Lightning Bolt
x3 Price of Progress
x2 Fireblast

x4 Goblin Guide
x4 Delver of Secrets
x3 Snapcaster Mage
x2 Grim Lavamancer

x4 Volcanic Island
x4 Scalding Tarn
x1 Misty Rainforest
x2 Wooded Foothills
x4 Polluted Delta
x2 Mountain
x1 Island

sb

x3 Smash to Smithereens
x3 Submerge
x2 Spell Pierce
x1 Force of Will
x2 Pyroblast
x1 Red Elemental Blast
x1 Price of Progress
x2 Chaos Warp


For the manabase I've been playing x4 duals, and I'm aware of the argument against that. I like the flexibility early on and it makes fireblasts easier without having to play more mountains. Wasteland definitely sucks but with x11 fetches you can almost always grab a basic. I am concerned that playing so few lands (18!!) even with Ponders and x4 Brainstorm can be dangerous playing against deck with x4 wasteland, when you play x4 duals.. So that's something I'm still toying with x3 might be the answer but I'm not sold on it yet.

I think the sb is getting there, the chaos warps are new... I used to play ancient grudges (with a trop MD). I wanted to play more Grim Lavamancers and Blasts in the SB, I might just swap those out for the Chaos Warps.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I don't think anyone is espousing a decklist without force of will. That card will never be on the chopping block. The most you can do is cut it down to 3 and that's a metagame call. Chaos warp is interesting tech. Change out a batterskull for a bird of paradise/some other 1-2 toughness dork that will get fried with a bolt in a second or two. Why 4 daze maindeck? I ran 3 for a little bit and had a few instances it cost me a game because it wasn't a Fow/spell snare. Not exaggerating. I'd run 2, max. It's a great card, but it's got limits. I never want to draw daze. Either beginning with it in my opener or finding it with a brainstorm. I think if you cut down a few staples of this deck from your main and sb(singleton pop? you can snapcast it ftw, no need to run more than 3 maindeck and call it a day)you'll see some good results. Good list so far. People here who have been arguing against running 4 volcanic islands must be forgetting about fireblast I guess.

[xfxf]

This deck is like the counter-burn of old times. People used to play stuff like Hammer of Bogardan for grindy longer games as a recursive source of damage. Punishing fire is like a faster Hammer, deals good with little critters everyone plays nowadays. Have any of you guys tried it in UR Delver?

[Zilla]

People here who have been arguing against running 4 volcanic islands must be forgetting about fireblast I guess.
Because you can't sac basic Mountains to Fireblast, amirite? Against decks packing Wasteland, you're often more likely to be able to keep 2 Mountains on the table if they're basic, which means the more ways to find basics (read: fetchlands), the more consistently you have Mountains for Fireblast.

I mean, I guess if you're intending to cast multiple Fireblasts in a game, (I personally never do) then more Mountains would be required, but I'd argue you should simply drop some fetches for more basic Mountains at that point.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I didn't know you couldn't sac volcanic islands to fireblast.

[mordraid]

I didn't know you couldn't sac volcanic islands to fireblast.

Yes you can

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I never intend to cast fireblast in a game, period. But it's nice to have one in hand to me because I've had a few instances where I've wanted to eat my nonbasics so price wouldn't hit me as hard. You can get sly with it and tap two volcanics, leave two red floating, sac them to fireblast, then use the two red to play price.

[Zilla]

I never intend to cast fireblast in a game, period. But it's nice to have one in hand to me because I've had a few instances where I've wanted to eat my nonbasics so price wouldn't hit me as hard. You can get sly with it and tap two volcanics, leave two red floating, sac them to fireblast, then use the two red to play price.
I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that 4 Volcs were required in order to consistently cast Fireblast. I don't think the argument against a full playset of Volcs is that it hurts you too much with Price of Progress. The argument against it is that the more you run, the less flexibility you have in playing around Wasteland.

If I draw a fetch instead of a Volc, I have options. If not, I have to suck it up and play into Wasteland whether I like it or not. By running 3 Volcs, you have enough in your deck that you can play into Wasteland and still have redundancy if you need it, but you're not as likely to draw multiples when you don't want them.

I think 2 Volcs is too few to be ideal, but 3 is probably just right. 4 is alright, but you lose some flexibility there, I think.

[fizzles]

just wondering if anyone considered Mind Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mind%20Bomb) I was thinking if it would help

[troopatroop]

Just sounds like a bad Chain Lightning. I could see it in a Burn version, but the best part about the card is that it pitches to FoW, and that build doesn't play Force. Cute idea, but it's a Lava Spike at best, really.

Also, why only play 2 Grim Lavamancer? That guy is like, my MVP against ALOT. 3x is for teh pros, imo.

Also!, Hammer of Bogardan, meet Sulfuric Vortex. Yeaaaaaaaaaaah xD

[Richard Cheese]

just wondering if anyone considered Mind Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mind%20Bomb) I was thinking if it would help

I think if you wanted more burn, you'd be better off running more burn.

Speaking of which, my list is way more burn-oriented than most in this thread. So I'm wondering if it's even worth it to put counters in the board (don't have FoW, nor the blue count to support it right now). I was going to run 4 Pierce and 2-3 of something, Negate, Mindbreak, Flusterstorm, Spellstutter. All I'm really worried about is TES/ANT/Belcher, since the amount of burn I pack gives me a pretty consistent 4-5 turn clock. Was hoping some more experienced blue and/or combo players could chime in on which counters work best, how many counters you'd need to reasonably expect to have a decent chance vs. storm combo, etc.

[xfxf]

Also!, Hammer of Bogardan, meet Sulfuric Vortex. Yeaaaaaaaaaaah xD

When I mentioned Hammer I was actually suggesting Punishing Fire. I'm thinking it could be a replacement for Fireblast as some people here expressed their distaste for a "sac two mountains" finisher. Grim Lavamancer eats removal like a champ but with Punishing Fire you can pick up trouble creatures without wasting your bolts or Snapcaster targets. Manabase will be an issue though.

[Zilla]

When I mentioned Hammer I was actually suggesting Punishing Fire. I'm thinking it could be a replacement for Fireblast as some people here expressed their distaste for a "sac two mountains" finisher. Grim Lavamancer eats removal like a champ but with Punishing Fire you can pick up trouble creatures without wasting your bolts or Snapcaster targets. Manabase will be an issue though.
I think they fulfill two totally different roles. I mean yes, they're both finishers, but Fireblast is a finisher for a mana light, threat dense, extremely fast deck that never wants to see the late game.

Punishing Fire requires you to dilute your manabase, and while it provides inevitablity, it's much slower, making it more appropriate in a midrange strategy. I just don't think it belongs here at all, except perhaps in the very controlling versions of this deck that run JTMS and the like.

[troopatroop]

Also, Grove of the Burnwillows is a very bad idea. What Zilla said.

Boarding with the Burn version, I'd play 4x Daze maindeck and 2-3 Spell Pierce SB.

Pyrostatic Pillar also fits your needs, being a "tap out trump".

[BigBopper]

There are 2 things that make me wonder about the whole Punishing Fire thing: First it's very mana intense for just some points of damage, and second how to grab Groove of the brunwillows constently without playing Knights? Also postboard it's a bad idea when playing sulfuric vortex.


Speaking of which, my list is way more burn-oriented than most in this thread. So I'm wondering if it's even worth it to put counters in the board (don't have FoW, nor the blue count to support it right now). I was going to run 4 Pierce and 2-3 of something, Negate, Mindbreak, Flusterstorm, Spellstutter. All I'm really worried about is TES/ANT/Belcher, since the amount of burn I pack gives me a pretty consistent 4-5 turn clock. Was hoping some more experienced blue and/or combo players could chime in on which counters work best, how many counters you'd need to reasonably expect to have a decent chance vs. storm combo, etc.

I've been playtesting a lot vs. ANT lately. I play a very balanced list between Burn and counter, including 2 daze, 3 spell snare and 4 FoW. First of all daze won't win you the game at all, cause like in other matchups it's only good in the first 1-2 turns. Second of all, you usually loose your counter due to silence or duress unless you can hide it in a brainstorm, but even if, you need to draw again... so sometimes multiple of any of them set the game. Even a single spell snare can make the difference when cast at the right time to a cabal ritual or infernal tutor. Sometimes my testing partner conceded after one counter. Drawing into multiple counters is rather difficult since you need to pressure still. So I would say the MU is about 50/50 to 40/60, while improoved after SB, especially when you make a turn 2 surgical extraction into snapcaster flashback combo.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I think the main attraction of this deck, for me, is the fact you can teach your opponent a lesson in a hurry while still giving their deck the finger via so many efficient counters. I've had little to no success with a burn-centered deck especially against the really popular mid-range/control decks that get shuffled up commonly. If you wanted to play just straight burn, that archetype is here, will be here after your bones are dust and your children are paying a mortgage most likely. I can't see a budget deck without forces really working. This deck already penalizes itself by not being able to play tarmogoyf and must instead concentrate on negating the opponent's strategy while turning them into charcoal. Last game I played, I'm guessing this was team america, I was facing down both a tarmogoyf and a tombstalker by turn 4. How can straight burn stop something like that? The most you can hope to pump out at someone per turn at that point in the game is maybe 6-12, depending on how hard price is hitting. It would have been a totally different game if I was holding a spell snare, a brainstorm and a FoW in my opener. Also bopper, about daze. Yeah the ONLY time I ever want to see that card is in my opening hand. I'll brainstorm/ponder it away every chance I get because it has no other benefit to me after turn 3 except for being pitchable to force.

[SupREME-10]

I have been doing a little testing lately:

Here is what I have been using (and please, there are reasons to try stuff out, so don't freak out).

19 Land
1 x Bloodstained Mire
1 x Flooded Strand
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Wooded Foothills
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Island
3 x Mountain
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
~~~ OK so I took a slightly different route as off color Fetches early don't give up info as to what your playing, they hurt less if they meet with a Surgical Extraction or Extirpate, etc. I also think that Basics win games and 9 mana producing lands is suffecient for the deck. I also like the utility of the Wastelands as I hate getting set back by a Maze of Ith, etc.

14 Creatures
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Goblin Guide
2 x Grim Lavamancer
~~~ I have found 14 Creatures working so far, I also tried Vendilion Clique and differnt numbers of the creatures I have listed now. I don't find Grim Lavamancer warrants more than 2 in the deck, although if you were playing more to the "Burn" aspect then it might.

Spells
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Daze
2 x Fire/Ice
4 x Force of Will
2 x Gitaxian Probe
2 x Ponder
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Chain Lightning
2 x Fireblast
4 x Lightning Bolt
~~~ Like I said, I am not running towards the more "Burn" style of the deck, so 3 Chain Lightnings works for me. I also like the diversity of spells better than having 4-offs of what some consider the best spells. Spell Pierce as also trested (and a couple other spells) but I find Spell Snare better in regard to that discussion, etc.

Sideboard
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Hydroblast
3 x Submerge
2 x Pyroblast
3 x Smash to Smithereens
2 x Price of Progress
~~~ Again I know that many advocate for 3x Price of Progress (or more) and to have them Maindeck; but I don't find that fits my meta. Same goes for the other card choices in my SB.

OK, so now to where I am going in the discussion.
VS Mono-Black (Yes it is out there still) Pox, Control, etc... the deck actually does well. No exact % from me; but I am winning most matches even if it is sometimes a bit lucky.

VS Merfolk (because they most certain are still one of the Police decks for Legacy), it has enough early gas to get creatures home and burn out their side of the aggro to win games. Again no exact % but I am winning more matches than I am losing.

VS U/W Stoneblade (and some other U/W varient decks) If I hit quickly and don't allow them to get stabilized I win. SB is key here and being able to remove key cards with Surgical Extraction can be game winning.

VS Combo the opening hand is key, Mulliganing correctly is what works.

And that actually brings me to a very very important point. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned the importance of the opener. I 100% support that person as this deck can win/lose based on your opener big time; Especially if you know what your facing. I have been honing my deck to meet with my meta and that is the other important point. Look what is most popular and gear up towards it; but also look at what decks handle what is popular and also gear toward them. My meta is seeing more Canadian Thresh and I really do need to practice more vs that match-up and the mirror. I suck vs ANT but it seams like I can't pull a FoW on an Opener vs Combo, so my hand is often dictating my potential vs the deck (and I don't see it that often - yet).

I appreciate all the discussion that you guys have had in here, it has helped me a lot. I don't find this deck difficult to pilot; but practice and discussion really do help. Now I would love to see and hear what others are using and how they are doing vs certain decks.

PS -- Side note. Best finish (for a match BTW) was a Brainstorm that got me another Brainstorm. Cracked a Fetch to shuffle and Brainstorm again that got me a Ponder. Tapped my second V-Island for the Ponder and viewed pure crap so I shuffled it away and drew a Fireblast, Sacrificed it for the Win. Pure Luck and I was done if he got another turn, but it shows the potential of what insane digging power can do for you.

Thanks again for all the discussion and comments.

[millerd33]

Are the wastelands there to fight Maze of ith?

How have the probes been for you?

I'm assuming the POP in the board is meta call however 2 mana for 4 damage even if they only have 2 non basics is good and if they have more it's a game winner.

I like the 2 lavamancer plan.

As for the Mana base would you not rather go down to 1 or 2 islands and add more fetch effects in there to help with all the library manipulation you run?

I would like to see a 3rd ponder. Those cards can be the difference between an mull and keep (I run the full 8 but am really starting to think about going down to 7 and 2 lavamancer to fit in 2 fireblast)

[Richard Cheese]

I think the main attraction of this deck, for me, is the fact you can teach your opponent a lesson in a hurry while still giving their deck the finger via so many efficient counters. I've had little to no success with a burn-centered deck especially against the really popular mid-range/control decks that get shuffled up commonly. If you wanted to play just straight burn, that archetype is here, will be here after your bones are dust and your children are paying a mortgage most likely. I can't see a budget deck without forces really working. This deck already penalizes itself by not being able to play tarmogoyf and must instead concentrate on negating the opponent's strategy while turning them into charcoal. Last game I played, I'm guessing this was team america, I was facing down both a tarmogoyf and a tombstalker by turn 4. How can straight burn stop something like that? The most you can hope to pump out at someone per turn at that point in the game is maybe 6-12, depending on how hard price is hitting. It would have been a totally different game if I was holding a spell snare, a brainstorm and a FoW in my opener. Also bopper, about daze. Yeah the ONLY time I ever want to see that card is in my opening hand. I'll brainstorm/ponder it away every chance I get because it has no other benefit to me after turn 3 except for being pitchable to force.

See I'm basically looking at it from the opposite perspective. If you're playing the "counter critical spells and use burn to keep your guys connecting" game, then why not just add green and run Goyfs? Burning small guys and countering big ones to connect with a Goblin Guide just doesn't make any sense to me. Also like I said, a more burn-centric list has a much faster clock. If someone playing TA drops a Goyf and a Tombstalker on turn four, I likely don't care because they should be well within burn range at that point.

Don't get me wrong, I know I'm probably going to drop game one to combo most of the time, but I've been playing aggro since forever so I guess I'm just used to that. Poor excuse I know, but honestly I don't see combo as a big enough component of the meta right now to worry about it. If the general consensus is that I'd have to devote 8-10 sideboard slots to beating it, and still lose to the occasional nut draw, then I may not run any counters at all, and use that space to shore up my other matches. You'll notice I purposefully haven't posted my list, because I'm well aware that it's much closer in play style to mono-red burn, but I thought this thread would be the best place to ask that particular question.

@troopatroop: I thought about Pyrostatic Pillar, just not sure how good it is against combo, what other matchups it has relevance in. Elves for sure, but what else?

[SupREME-10]

Wasteland is for Maze as well as other things; Like - Landstalling, even if that is a little situational, etc.

I am used to using Peek so casting the Gitaxian Probes as a Sorcery sort of pisses me off a little; but having the option to use pain to cast it is very nice and leaves mana for other things.

I am good with 6 diggers, and I truely believe that ponder does not even warrant a 3rd spot for me. But subtel changes in the deck can make it run differently depending on your own play style as well. I do think that I would take a 3rd Grim over a 3rd ponder though.

OK, now here is a question for you guys.
T1 Delver
T2 Standstill
I was thinking that this might be a really good spot to run 4x standstill as the umbrealla would be a great place to get the Delver active, and at the very least your into 3 new cards. Thoughts?

[snappingbowls | ಠ_ಠ]

I didn't know you couldn't sac volcanic islands to fireblast.

I've got a few mint Scrublands for trade... I get the feeling you might be interested in them ;)

[troopatroop]

I've also been looking alot into Standstill, but in a RUG build with Delver/Nacatl/Grim + Goyf. It's more Fishy in nature, so more annoying, and less to the throat. Standstill itself is a very good card, one being underused atm, imo. Delver into Standstill is a great play, but it might be better in U/w.

[Kich867]

I've got a few mint Scrublands for trade... I get the feeling you might be interested in them ;)

I can't tell if people are going along with his sarcasm this hard or they're serious when responding to him about the volcanic islands..

[Zilla]

I was thinking that this might be a really good spot to run 4x standstill as the umbrealla would be a great place to get the Delver active, and at the very least your into 3 new cards. Thoughts?
The concept is already being discussed here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22938-UR-Delverstill). I think it takes the deck in a significantly different enough direction to warrant a separate discussion.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I played against a 3 color infect deck recently that tore me down like mike tyson vs. glass joe with inkmoth nexus + invigorate. Wasteland would have been a game changer in that match. Has anyone thought about running condescend in the sideboard instead of spell pierce/flusterstorm?

[Beatusnox]

I played against a 3 color infect deck recently that tore me down like mike tyson vs. glass joe with inkmoth nexus + invigorate. Wasteland would have been a game changer in that match. Has anyone thought about running condescend in the sideboard instead of spell pierce/flusterstorm?

Wait for them to pump their creature and in response burn it off the table. Or, Counter their invigorate. No offense intended, but if they just played better than you, it could cause you to lose, but also saying "I lost to this, halp!" without giving the list you lost with is hard to help.

[useL]

I played against a 3 color infect deck recently that tore me down like mike tyson vs. glass joe with inkmoth nexus + invigorate. Wasteland would have been a game changer in that match. Has anyone thought about running condescend in the sideboard instead of spell pierce/flusterstorm?

How can this happen in a deck with Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt and probably Smash to Smithereens in the sideboard?

[SupREME-10]

There are some Turbo-Infect decks that will rip your face off on turn 2 for the win.

Turn one Glistener Elf
Turn 2, +4 pump from things like Giant Growth, Mutagenic growth, etc and then a Berzerk to double it when it hits you.

If you don't have a spell ready, or if your only on T1 and used your mana for a Delver or a Goblin Guide then you just lost game 1.

You should be a little better prepared for game 2-3 though and things like Wasteland to use on an Inkmoth Nexus or any other man-land for that matter are not a bad idea. Oh and one more reason that I actually do run 3x Wasteland (md).

PS here is the type of Turbo-Infect deck that I am talking about.
Deck List
12 Creatures
4 x Ichorclaw Myr
4 x Blighted Agent
4 x Glistener Elf

30 Spells/etc
4 x Invigorate
4 x Might of Old Krosa
4 x Lotus Petal
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Berserk
3 x Daze
3 x Unstable Mutation

18 Land
2 x Flooded Strand
1 x Forest
4 x Inkmoth Nexus
1 x Island
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Tropical Island
2 x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Autumn's Veil
3 x Seeds of Innocence
3 x Apostle's Blessing

It is a rogue deck; but it can steal wins from people and every now and then it does rear it's ugly head. I don't think it will win any events as it gets hammered on pretty good in some match-ups. But you actually should be able to play around it if you look it over and think about what is actually inportant for him to use and not lose.

I hope that helps.

[TheMinel]

I lost 1-2 on a round of a tournament i played with U/R delver last week to this type of deck too....


first game I won so quickly I diin't even know what he was playing...
second game exactly the opposite, he wins like turn 2...
game 3 i mull and see NOTHING, die horribly poisoned :(

[David Kaplan]

I have taken stock Burn and splashed Blue for Delver/Brainstorm. It's tough to get feedback on the Burn thread, as many are opposed to a splash and on this thread, as many are opposed to too much burn. I appreciate any feedback you may have on my version.

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress

//Splash
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze (Up in the air over this 60th slot... Snapcaster, Flame Rift, Wasteland even Phantasmal Bear)

//Mana (19)
12 Sac Lands
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

//Sideboard
5 Pyroblast/REB
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
Faerie Macabre
Mountain
Wasteland


I'm looking for a solid strategy against Ugr Thres. I like Submerge w/ REB backup in response to a fetch. Stifle/Wasteland is tough, thinking about an extra Mountain or even Wasteland retaliation.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

[millerd33]

Echoing Truth is a must in the board imo. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing Leyline of Sanctity or other type effects to stop all the burn that has become more popular.

Leyline stops Burn, Storm, Belcher, some sac removal, targeted discard. I'm sure there are more that I am missing.

Adding the bounce to the board helps make sure that we don't just auto scoop to these cards.

EDIT: I would also like to see a basic island in there as well.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I didn't make that post crying about how the big bad infect deck beat me up, halp.
how do i anecdotal?

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

Echoing Truth

why this instead of chain of vapor?

[millerd33]

why this instead of chain of vapor?

Echoing truth hit every copy of whatever card you are having trouble with. 8 1/1 goblin tokens, 2 Leyline... I'll pay the 1 extra mana to make sure I can hit everything I need to in 1 shot.

[Richard Cheese]

Echoing truth hit every copy of whatever card you are having trouble with. 8 1/1 goblin tokens, 2 Leyline... I'll pay the 1 extra mana to make sure I can hit everything I need to in 1 shot.

Chain can also backfire on you. If the opponent has lands to spare, it may be very much in their interest to bounce your flipped Delver. Maybe not the most likely case, but it will come up eventually.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

@richard

sup blood meridian sig bro

[jnosrati]

I play a similar deck and have the same problem. how do you deal with ugr thresh? mongrel is a serious problem for this deck.

[Piceli89]

I play a similar deck and have the same problem. how do you deal with ugr thresh? mongrel is a serious problem for this deck.

Best troll post ever.

[Richard Cheese]

Best troll post ever.

Wild Mongrel doesn't afraid of anything.

[troopatroop]

All i gots to do is discard 2 f00l.

[GrdiVrag]

I play a similar deck and have the same problem. how do you deal with ugr thresh? mongrel is a serious problem for this deck.

Put Sudden Shock in your sideboard, foo.

[videogamer99]

Hey everyone. Recently built this deck and I wanted everyone to know that I just made Top 8 of a 54 person Legacy tournament with UR Delver. My exact list and a tournament report should be up later tonight, but it may take a little longer than I plan. Ill just post my list and a quick review of my matches.

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Fireblast

Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will

Round 1 vs Mono U Forgemaster - 2-0
Round 2 vs Stoneforge Affinity - 2-0
Round 3 vs Team America - 2-0
Round 4 vs UWg Stoneblade - 1-2
Round 5 vs Bant Aggro - 2-0
Round 6 vs Reanimator - 2-1

I was in first at the end of swiss.

Top 8 vs Merfolk with Stifle and Standstill - 1-2

Biggest thing was that I never had a Delver flip against Merfolk. I would've won G3 for about 3 turns if Delver ever flipped.

Changes:
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Island

Thats all I would change. The deck played very well and I misplayed against the Stoneblade list and probably should've won the game, but I cant do math so whatever.

[millerd33]

Hey everyone. Recently built this deck and I wanted everyone to know that I just made Top 8 of a 54 person Legacy tournament with UR Delver. My exact list and a tournament report should be up later tonight, but it may take a little longer than I plan. Ill just post my list and a quick review of my matches.

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Fireblast

Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will

Round 1 vs Mono U Forgemaster - 2-0
Round 2 vs Stoneforge Affinity - 2-0
Round 3 vs Team America - 2-0
Round 4 vs UWg Stoneblade - 1-2
Round 5 vs Bant Aggro - 2-0
Round 6 vs Reanimator - 2-1

I was in first at the end of swiss.

Top 8 vs Merfolk with Stifle and Standstill - 1-2

Biggest thing was that I never had a Delver flip against Merfolk. I would've won G3 for about 3 turns if Delver ever flipped.

Changes:
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Island

Thats all I would change. The deck played very well and I misplayed against the Stoneblade list and probably should've won the game, but I cant do math so whatever.

I really like this list... question is why +1 island vs +1 mountain or +1 fetch?

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

nice job, dude.

[videogamer99]

I really like this list... question is why +1 island vs +1 mountain or +1 fetch?

I always seem to fetch Moutain first, but I'd rather naturally draw a blue source. I dont like running too many more fetches than fetchables so I dont want another fetch. Ive actually been playing 3-3 on basics and only two Volcanics. I always seem to play around Wasteland and I only really want the dual for a T1 Goblin Guide/Lavamancer with Daze back up.

[SupREME-10]

I always seem to fetch Moutain first, but I'd rather naturally draw a blue source. I dont like running too many more fetches than fetchables so I dont want another fetch. Ive actually been playing 3-3 on basics and only two Volcanics. I always seem to play around Wasteland and I only really want the dual for a T1 Goblin Guide/Lavamancer with Daze back up.

Quoted for 100% truth.
I run 6 basics and 3 volcanic with only 7 feteches and 3 wastelands. I almost always grab a basic first, and you should not be keeping a 1 land hand, so it's not like you don't know which land to fetch, etc.

It is meta dependant though, so if your in a game/area without Wastelands, then by all means grab a Volcanic first.

[John Cox]

Quoted for 100% truth.
I run 6 basics and 3 volcanic with only 7 feteches and 3 wastelands. I almost always grab a basic first, and you should not be keeping a 1 land hand, so it's not like you don't know which land to fetch, etc.

It is meta dependant though, so if your in a game/area without Wastelands, then by all means grab a Volcanic first.

I couldn't operate like that, I usually keep one land hands that function because of fetches. I agree with fetching basics but the 6 basics to 7 fetch ratio wouldn't work for me because of how necessary the option of getting a volcanic is if you don't have a cantrip or second land in my opener.

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

I couldn't operate like that, I usually keep one land hands that function because of fetches. I agree with fetching basics but the 6 basics to 7 fetch ratio wouldn't work for me because of how necessary the option of getting a volcanic is if you don't have a cantrip or second land in my opener.

I'm not sold on cutting volcanics either. I've tried about 10 games with 3 volcanics and an extra island and didn't really seem to notice any advantage it gave me.

[millerd33]

I tend to have most problem against W/G Maverick. What is the line of play and sideboard I should be using to give a better chance to beat these types of decks?

[TheMinel]

pack some artifact destroying cards (spree, smithereens), then keep your bolts for when they cast their creatures that are a pain, i even kill the hierarchs at the beginning to avoid them having too much mana too early...

[useL]

I tend to have most problem against W/G Maverick. What is the line of play and sideboard I should be using to give a better chance to beat these types of decks?

They tend to rely on their Ooze/Knight against you. Bring some submerge and Lavamancers (remove your creatures in response when they try to Ooze) and some Price of Progress.

[BigBopper]

You simply have to take care of their lifegain: Jitte, Ooze and StP, especially when they have white mana left and a big knight. So postboard the key is Sulfuric Vortex and Spell Snare is usually a good call. Usually I don't care about one drops, cause the bolt or chain lightning is better off in their faces.

I would also fetch VI first or love to start out with Island into Delver or Cantrip, cause that way you pretend to have daze!

[millerd33]

Is there any way to fit lotus petal in here? With all our filtering and shuffle effects is there room for these little gems to speed us up a turn?

Sample mana base:

3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Mountian
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Lotal Petal

[wutangkillabeezonaswarm]

this deck is already really fast.