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Bryant Cook
03-16-2012, 12:08 AM
The EPIC Storm

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/sf/sf69_emptyWarrens.jpg

To find more information on The EPIC Storm please visit:

www.theepicstorm.com (http://www.theepicstorm.com/)
Facebook Group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1060019600691940/)
Twitter Page (https://twitter.com/mtgtheepicstorm)

jin
03-16-2012, 12:59 AM
Interesting turn of events! I wonder how this SB will do.

EDIT: In the Chalice-match up, you side out 8 cards but you side in 7 cards.

Lejay
03-16-2012, 01:09 AM
c.) Why play The EPIC Storm (TES) over Doomsday combo? Mainly because Sensei’s Diving Top is a slow card in nature, which means that Doomsday combo in nature is slow. Slow combo decks aren’t good because decks like Zoo, Goblins, Burn, and Maverick now stand a chance, this is a mistake that players learned from Solidarity. On top of being slow, there are many “pass the turn” piles. Losing half of your life to Doomsday and passing the turn is a very dangerous thing to do but is necessary sometimes with Doomsday variants. My largest problem with the current Doomsday decks is their alternative routes to beating blue based decks. Using a comes into play tapped land, forces a player to pass the turn, now the combo is susceptible to wasteland and stifle. Increasing the amount hate against the deck is just something I don’t think is worth doing. TES is faster, doesn’t pass the turn, and doesn’t lose to a Wasteland.
I agree on the small percentages SDT gives away against aggro decks, but you seem to overestimate it. The difference in average goldfish speed is about only of half a turn, and there isn't any goldfish decks in legacy anymore. When Maverick can now reliably cast a hate bear on turn 2 I'd better have SDT or DD to find my (often main deck) answers to it. And of course we still can go off before they land it whether with DD or with EtW.
I thought it would be obvious, but no we do not use shelldock isle against a deck that plays wasteland and stifle. You beat blue decks by "playing slowly" like you say and go off once you have the edge on their hand.
Pass the turn piles have always had marginal uses but it is sometimes the best play. Obviously not when this is going to kill you.
You clearly lack experience with the deck so I advise you to either practice with it or cut that paragraph from your opening post.

Final Fortune
03-16-2012, 02:27 AM
Are you just using Inquisition of Kozilek because it removes U/w Stoneblade's non-Force of Will counters, Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage in addition to G/w Maverick's hate bears instead of Deathmark to address the rise in hate bears? I usually find the problem isn't discarding their hate bears pre-emptively but removing their hate bears retro-actively is where the deck struggles, and while Inquisition of Kozilek has clear utility Wipe Away and Echoing Truth aren't really worth the miser singleton for Counterbalance or the mana inefficieny for Chalice of the Void compared to Death Mark or Chain of Vapor (especially considering Thalia makes (1)1UU and 1(1U) untenable). Non creature based hate, with the exception of Enlightened Tutor for Thorn of Amethyst, isn't very popular right now so it's probably wise to either run the better bounce card in Chain of Vapor and rely on Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree for Chalice of the Void or just run a direct answer for hate bears?

leegoo
03-16-2012, 07:30 AM
While I too disagree with quite a bit of what you said about DD, Overall a great update Bryant. Inquisition in particular, very interesting.

Bryant Cook
03-16-2012, 08:13 AM
While I too disagree with quite a bit of what you said about DD, Overall a great update Bryant. Inquisition in particular, very interesting.

That's fine, you can disagree. I believe what I said is accurate, although, arguing over something small like this shouldn't be the focus of a new thread. I'm expecting people to be not very receptive to Inquisition as people in my local gaming store were not.


Are you just using Inquisition of Kozilek because it removes U/w Stoneblade's non-Force of Will counters, Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage in addition to G/w Maverick's hate bears instead of Deathmark to address the rise in hate bears? I usually find the problem isn't discarding their hate bears pre-emptively but removing their hate bears retro-actively is where the deck struggles, and while Inquisition of Kozilek has clear utility Wipe Away and Echoing Truth aren't really worth the miser singleton for Counterbalance or the mana inefficieny for Chalice of the Void compared to Death Mark or Chain of Vapor (especially considering Thalia makes (1)1UU and 1(1U) untenable). Non creature based hate, with the exception of Enlightened Tutor for Thorn of Amethyst, isn't very popular right now so it's probably wise to either run the better bounce card in Chain of Vapor and rely on Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree for Chalice of the Void or just run a direct answer for hate bears?

This was discussed a bit in the last thread, I like to play the most versatile cards possible. There's often Chalice of the Void in the metagames where I play, meaning, I play Echoing Truth over Chain of Vapor. If there's no Chalices in your local Metagame feel free to play Chain, but I cannot. While I like Deathmark it doesn't provide enough roles right now for me to play it.

leegoo
03-16-2012, 08:48 AM
That's fine, you can disagree. I believe what I said is accurate, although, arguing over something small like this shouldn't be the focus of a new thread. I'm expecting people to be not very receptive to Inquisition as people in my local gaming store were not.



I can see Inquisition over Thoughtsieze in the current meta for sure, but why not the 4th duress and 3 Inquisition in the board? It's a bit worse against the aggro matchups, but having access to it g1 off a wish seems to be worth such a small sacrifice.

Bryant Cook
03-16-2012, 09:03 AM
I can see Inquisition over Thoughtsieze in the current meta for sure, but why not the 4th duress and 3 Inquisition in the board? It's a bit worse against the aggro matchups, but having access to it g1 off a wish seems to be worth such a small sacrifice.

The only card Inquisition doesn't hit in this format that TES cares about is Force of Will. There's already 8 maindeck cards devoted to beating Force of Will. I think the extra card devoted to beating Gaddock Teeg and the new enemy in Thalia is more important.

n0mad
03-16-2012, 09:30 AM
i am really liking the proactive idea of inquisition over the reactive nature of pyroblast/reb. the whole idea of this deck is to provoke situations that are difficult for your opponent to answer, so with that i think inquisition will be a fantastic addition to this 75 and i will be giving it a whirl this coming wednesday at our local legacy tourney.

is infest > pyroclasm? i don't think i caught the debate regarding this card choice in the previous thread.

Bryant Cook
03-16-2012, 09:36 AM
i am really liking the proactive idea of inquisition over the reactive nature of pyroblast/reb. the whole idea of this deck is to provoke situations that are difficult for your opponent to answer, so with that i think inquisition will be a fantastic addition to this 75 and i will be giving it a whirl this coming wednesday at our local legacy tourney.

is infest > pyroclasm? i don't think i caught the debate regarding this card choice in the previous thread.

Read my article from this week. (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1214/cooks-kitchen-reality-check)

leegoo
03-16-2012, 09:40 AM
i am really liking the proactive idea of inquisition over the reactive nature of pyroblast/reb. the whole idea of this deck is to provoke situations that are difficult for your opponent to answer, so with that i think inquisition will be a fantastic addition to this 75 and i will be giving it a whirl this coming wednesday at our local legacy tourney.

is infest > pyroclasm? i don't think i caught the debate regarding this card choice in the previous thread.

basically, pyroclasm can't kill mother of runes + hate bear. Infest can.

death
03-16-2012, 09:40 AM
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
1 Infest
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

Now that you've mentioned Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, is Infest really an upgrade from Silent Departure as Wish target? I mean with Thalia in play, you should be holding rituals to successfully cast Infest, because it rarely happens that you have access to 4 lands. It's interesting to see this deck can bring in Inquisitions post-board but if Thalia hits the board, wasting rituals on a hatebear seems like it's not a great idea.

Bryant Cook
03-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Now that you've mentioned Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, is Infest really an upgrade from Silent Departure as Wish target? I mean with Thalia in play, you should be holding rituals to successfully cast Infest, because it rarely happens that you have access to 4 lands. It's interesting to see this deck can bring in Inquisitions post-board but if Thalia hits the board, wasting rituals on a hatebear seems like it's not a great idea.

I just feel as if we're beginning to beat a dead horse at this point.

Infest deals with Mother of Ruins and a hatebear. It's better than straight up losing the game. In my testing yesterday I was in two positions where Infest straight up won me the game, it was good.

Dark Ritual
03-16-2012, 10:25 AM
Inquisition is an interesting card, the main reason it's in there is for HATEBEARS people, keep dreaming about stripping FoW from their hand. The card is brought in in matchups where the opponent lacks FoW, so it's a strict upgrade to duress considering it nabs hatebears in hand while duress doesn't along with chant still being abyssmal against nonblue decks typically. I never really liked pyroblast that much, and proactive disruption beats reactive in combo.

You can either run infest or virtue's ruin, but virtue's ruin doesn't kill scavenging ooze, which is sometimes relevant as them untapping with ooze usually turns off PiF and IGG.

On doomsday, the deck is fundamentally slower than TES but in exchange you get a somewhat better manabase with basic(s) and you can grind out blue decks very well with sensei's top, which is essentially a duress as well as a great card filter because if the opponent doesn't force top, you will find a duress with top barring some really god awful topdecks with top + fetchlands.

Dark ritual into infest seems fine. It's a lot better than the alternative, which is just losing to thalia and probably knight of the reliquary beating you down. The only other way to play through thalia requires several turns of setting up your artifact mana, making it susceptible to qasali pridemage. I'd prefer not to play through a thalia with a deck not named spiral tide.

thefringthing
03-16-2012, 10:32 AM
While it doesn't take Force, Inquisition can sometimes take their only card to pitch to Force, creating the occasional effective 2-for-1.

In related news, I just placed an order last night for 1 Infest, 4 Inquisition of Kozilek, and 20 Unglued Goblin tokens. (I'll be retiring my Scars Goblin tokens, which have served well.)

n0mad
03-16-2012, 10:38 AM
Inquisition is an interesting card, the main reason it's in there is for HATEBEARS people, keep dreaming about stripping FoW from their hand. The card is brought in in matchups where the opponent lacks FoW, so it's a strict upgrade to duress considering it nabs hatebears in hand while duress doesn't along with chant still being abyssmal against nonblue decks typically. I never really liked pyroblast that much, and proactive disruption beats reactive in combo.

You can either run infest or virtue's ruin, but virtue's ruin doesn't kill scavenging ooze, which is sometimes relevant as them untapping with ooze usually turns off PiF and IGG.

On doomsday, the deck is fundamentally slower than TES but in exchange you get a somewhat better manabase with basic(s) and you can grind out blue decks very well with sensei's top, which is essentially a duress as well as a great card filter because if the opponent doesn't force top, you will find a duress with top barring some really god awful topdecks with top + fetchlands.

Dark ritual into infest seems fine. It's a lot better than the alternative, which is just losing to thalia and probably knight of the reliquary beating you down. The only other way to play through thalia requires several turns of setting up your artifact mana, making it susceptible to qasali pridemage. I'd prefer not to play through a thalia with a deck not named spiral tide.

Maybe I just can't math but... Dark Ritual for Infest seems really difficult to accomplish?

Example:
*Board state* Opponent has Thalia and Mother of Runes.
We have to have... 3 Lands and a Dark Ritual and Infest to kill two guys? Dark rit +1 Infest + 1 (Thalia)

is that the best we have? o.O

lorddotm
03-16-2012, 04:21 PM
I like how every time you've made a new TES thread, the same bullshit from the last thread resets and starts all over again.

Basically what I'm saying is that the core of this deck hasn't changed in like 3-4 years, and people need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and just conform to it, it works.

We play TES because we are rock n' roll, not teen idols like ANT players, nor do we like to talk about how deep and sentimental bluegrass is, and how you really have to give the obscure and traditional artists instead of the mainstream bluegrass peeps like the Doomsday players do. And we definitely don't like classical music like those lame and boring High Tide players. Basically what I'm saying is that TES likes to party, the rest of the storm decks are boring and lame.

Lastly, try new ideas instead of rehashing old and dead topics like Personal Tutor and that kind of shit.

Pelikanudo
03-16-2012, 05:10 PM
The only card Inquisition doesn't hit in this format that TES cares about is Force of Will. There's already 8 maindeck cards devoted to beating Force of Will. I think the extra card devoted to beating Gaddock Teeg and the new enemy in Thalia is more important.

Lot of time I don't post...
I've read the report.
That happened to me too. I couldn't be lieve it. Loosing to U/W decks.
Related to inquisition, I dont agree because of it either can't stop Mind break trap. I just simply prefer T.Seize.(maybe in contradiction...)
Related to the list. I died just once to A.N. and was because It shown the other A.N. therefore I play only 1 A.N. from now on. Sorry but I'm programmer.That is also the reason of playing 4 crhome mox remember! 9 Threads are enough not counting Tendrils.
My other slot is 1 preordain. Not the best card however you are in contradiction when you side out I.T for 2nd and third games, in this case I use the Perfect Card To Side Out tha is .. preordain!
I also tested PiF main deck but didn't like.
I still prefer the pyroblast set but I'm testing the idea of adding even more Chant effects, (I'm evaluating the possibility of adding Suppression I've finished to evaluate it I decidily I'm not going to play it, I'll try first more 1 cost Chan effects by the moment...)To simply stop them from playing anything.
Infest is too espensive in my opinion to play it.

Ideas, Suggestions, Onions, any Onion?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-16-2012, 05:13 PM
I like how every time you've made a new TES thread, the same bullshit from the last thread resets and starts all over again.

Basically what I'm saying is that the core of this deck hasn't changed in like 3-4 years, and people need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and just conform to it, it works.

We play TES because we are rock n' roll, not teen idols like ANT players, nor do we like to talk about how deep and sentimental bluegrass is, and how you really have to give the obscure and traditional artists instead of the mainstream bluegrass peeps like the Doomsday players do. And we definitely don't like classical music like those lame and boring High Tide players. Basically what I'm saying is that TES likes to party, the rest of the storm decks are boring and lame.

Lastly, try new ideas instead of rehashing old and dead topics like Personal Tutor and that kind of shit.

I'm playing with a Spanish foil Infest (forcibly). And have 3/4 foil Inquisitions of Kozilek on their way.

What a wonderful day.

I'll be rocking the setup for SCG Des Moines.

On a more serious note, I like IoK because it proactively takes care of these cards (and doesn't create awkward situations with Pyroblast and LED or when you need an extra land to cast it):

Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.

Taking a SFM from UW is a pretty sick play. Turns them into a really bad Landstill deck.

Matt
03-16-2012, 05:53 PM
I've always preferred Thoughtseize/Inquisition to Duress game 2-3. But, Duress is considerably better against U, or more so FoW. I'd feel more comfortable with a 1-3 split between Duress and Inquisition in the side. Sometimes Burning Wish into Duress is a critical play..

n0mad
03-16-2012, 09:09 PM
a friend of mine suggested playing Massacre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Massacre) over Infest. You can play it on two mana or with just a dark ritual. Which seems better than pyroclasm and infest for the maverick situation..

Thoughts?

death
03-16-2012, 09:24 PM
Gaddock Teeg

OurSerratedDust
03-16-2012, 09:24 PM
a friend of mine suggested playing Massacre (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Massacre) over Infest. You can play it on two mana or with just a dark ritual. Which seems better than pyroclasm and infest for the maverick situation..

Thoughts?

Unfortunately, Massacre cannot be cast with Gaddock Teeg in play, which is probably pretty significant.

Dark Ritual
03-17-2012, 12:54 AM
Maybe I just can't math but... Dark Ritual for Infest seems really difficult to accomplish?

Example:
*Board state* Opponent has Thalia and Mother of Runes.
We have to have... 3 Lands and a Dark Ritual and Infest to kill two guys? Dark rit +1 Infest + 1 (Thalia)

is that the best we have? o.O

The point is that you CAN kill thalia with 3 lands + infest, news flash we run 13 land so getting 4 in play is hard especially when the opponent runs wasteland. Or you can sit there with 3 lands while the opponent beats you down and you just lose, in fact losing sounds a lot better than winning in a tournament setting because then I can go out and have a smoke, get some food, and not have to think about anything. Yeah. That sounds so much better than grapeshotting someone for 60 damage.

Gaddock teeg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Massacre. True story, massacre was invalidated as soon as teeg saw print and started to see legacy play. Massacre was further invalidated when the GSZ --> Gaddock teeg play was created in maverick. I wouldn't be caught dead running massacre in any deck in legacy right now. If it cost 3, oh god yes I would absolutely adore the card and call it the best anti hatebear card in magic but as it stands the card is jank.

I agree completely with Lorddotm on the same crap getting rehashed every single time a new thread is created. Maybe people don't read the opening post, but there's a list of cards that didn't make the cut. Sure it doesn't list every card ever tested, but it lists the decent cards that didn't make it. If you can't tell why a card isn't in Bryant's list, it's probably because it has been tested and then shelved for another superior card. Preordain is worse than ponder. Plunge into darkness is a heaping pile of crap. Slithermuse isn't good enough. Doomsday is awful in decks with only 8 cantrips. Cabal ritual hurts more than rite of flame when flipped with ad nauseam and is often worse than rite of flame, example being you have 2 cabal ritual/2 rite of flame in hand. Which do you prefer? Rite of flame, since one is a dark ritual in red essentially and if you draw any more they become black lotus and blacker lotus. I can go on and on why certain cards aren't included in TES, but if you can't understand why they aren't included maybe you shouldn't be playing one of the hardest decks to play optimally in the format.

Vacrix
03-17-2012, 01:13 AM
Though Gaddock Teeg > Massacre... Massacre has its own situations where its fantastic. If your opponent has any of the other hatebears out... including Mother of Runes, then Massacre is pretty effective. Its a good wish target.

thefringthing
03-17-2012, 01:22 AM
The following sections can probably be trimmed from the opening post for now:

VI d)
IX a), b), c), e), g), i).

Basaka
03-17-2012, 02:19 AM
Played today, started 2-0 then lost 2 to U/W. Did end up mulling a lot, and got double wastelanded out one game...

Still used pyroblast, as I need to get foil IoKs, but managed to grab 3 foil ones at my LGS. T1 Inquisition taking stone forge DOES seem a lot better than having to wait till they cast it, or having a dead pyroblast.

Will try using the IoK (3-1 split in SB personally, still a lot of combo in my meta) next time. Or Esperblade since I just finished building it.

Awaclus
03-17-2012, 03:38 AM
My other slot is 1 preordain. Not the best card however you are in contradiction when you side out I.T for 2nd and third games, in this case I use the Perfect Card To Side Out tha is .. preordain!
You shouldn't ever be running a card just to side it out in games 2 and 3.

ThomasDowd
03-17-2012, 04:51 AM
almost posted something drunkenly enabled. but decided not to try to offend everyone.

Bryant, great ideas, most of the time i found myself wanting to be more proactive anyways(INQ) as the pyroblast was often stranded in my hand waiting to be discarded to an LED (weird lines). the only thing i liked P blast for was blowing up a flipped delver/ countering something kind of irrelevant (weird metagame). def will be trying INQ. Wish I had more time to contribute to theory/ strategy.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-17-2012, 09:30 AM
The following sections can probably be trimmed from the opening post for now:

VI d)
IX a), b), c), e), g), i).

No.

thefringthing
03-17-2012, 11:50 AM
If the idea is to have the opening post be as exhaustive as possible, then I demand two paragraphs of sideboarding strategy for Rifter and Leyline Aggro. And 60Islands.dec for that matter. :wink:

Matt
03-17-2012, 12:23 PM
Echoing Truth is starting to feel like a staple, rather than a meta choice over Chain of Vapor, especially with Dredge being so prevalent nowadays. Honestly, I'd run Echoing Truth even if Chalice wasn't a card...

AriLax
03-17-2012, 12:42 PM
Echoing Truth is starting to feel like a staple, rather than a meta choice over Chain of Vapor, especially with Dredge being so prevalent nowadays. Honestly, I'd run Echoing Truth even if Chalice wasn't a card...

I don't get what your goal is here. If they make 11 billion Zombies you should be dead regardless of an Echoing Truth. Are you trying to bounce an Iona? Just board to make your deck the best at killing them and the best at Time Walking them if you don't just have it.

So, basically, just don't board vs. Dredge.

thefringthing
03-17-2012, 01:06 PM
I bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge just to cut Silences, which are pretty unimpactful if Dredge doesn't have the nuts. Chants can save a turn against an army of Zombies, but how often do you get any value out of Silence, Ari?

KevinTrudeau
03-17-2012, 01:26 PM
Running discard in place of Pyroblast in the board seems interesting. I don't know if I necessarily like the board plan you suggested, Bryant, as Orim's Chant/Silence could be considered the best way to disrupt GW decks, especially considering, in response to IoK, E. Tutor->Canonist/Stony Silence; also, Mindbreak Trap (hey, Wescoe was running it). Having six, even seven (I wouldn't cut the SB Duress for an IoK, maybe Thoughtseize though) or eight if you include Grapeshot, potential cards to board in against Maverick seems like it could be pretty got dang good as long as a board plan could be materialized that wouldn't be overly detrimental to the deck's speed (as I wouldn't want to board out any disruption other than the three Duresses). There's a Big 1.5 tournament at my store in one week, so I'll definitely test it out before then.


Echoing Truth is starting to feel like a staple, rather than a meta choice over Chain of Vapor, especially with Dredge being so prevalent nowadays. Honestly, I'd run Echoing Truth even if Chalice wasn't a card...

Nah, it's a meta choice. I'll play it over Chain at my store since the metagame is so varied (and has had a pretty high density of Chalice of the Void decks over the past month or so for some reason), but I definitely feel Chain was the correct choice for the GP.


I bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge just to cut Silences, which are pretty unimpactful if Dredge doesn't have the nuts. Chants can save a turn against an army of Zombies, but how often do you get any value out of Silence, Ari?

Silence is absolutely incredible against Dredge, and is an integral part of the overall gameplan against it. Chant/Silence fits very well into a line on the play of turn one hope they can't kill and/or Wit's End you (although, you can always just Silence in response to the casting of LED if need be), turn two Silence on draw step after determining whether or not you'll actually need to Silence (maybe cantripping beforehand with the other land), turn three win. Take Ari's advice and don't board anything out against Dredge unless they're playing Leyline of Sanctity, in which case you should board out Duress, as opposed to a Chant effect, for the necessary bounce. TES needs to be proactively disruptive, rather than reactively disruptive, against Dredge; you shouldn't (in most circumstances) be expending WW to Chant with kicker against an army of Zombies, as you should have already cast it for W on a previous turn to have prevented them from doing anything other than potentially bringing back an Ichorid and making token(s) off of it EOT.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Winning the die roll and being able to chantwalk Dredge for x-turns is very strong.

AriLax
03-17-2012, 02:30 PM
I bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge just to cut Silences, which are pretty unimpactful if Dredge doesn't have the nuts. Chants can save a turn against an army of Zombies, but how often do you get any value out of Silence, Ari?

I would much rather Chant-Walk Dredge then let them do things like Cabal Therapy and plan on just bouncing their Zombies after the fact.

emidln
03-17-2012, 03:21 PM
If chant's ability to stop them attacking is what you're using it for against Dredge, you're very much doing it wrong.

thefringthing
03-17-2012, 05:09 PM
Since the consensus is clearly that Chant effects are good strategy against Dredge, I'll keep it in mind next time I play them. Either way, I've never had any difficulty against Dredge. They have four relevant cards in their whole deck against us, and we're much faster than they are.

Dark Ritual
03-18-2012, 01:44 AM
Yeah, if you take out anything against dredge to play defense against their attackers you're doing it wrong. Just chant walk them until you assemble the win, as their entire deck is sorcery based. Chant with kicker against them is very much wrong like Emidln said, as you need to protect your hand from cabal therapy otherwise dredge will tear your hand to shreds in 1-2 turns and you'll be relying on the top of your deck, which isn't any good unless you set it up with brainstorm and have laid down your artifact mana.

Also, leyline of sanctity in dredge? I haven't seen a dredge list packing that card in the SB in ages, at least in the new faithless looting lists. Usually dredge just tries to race us, which they can't do when we chantwalk them and maybe try to land an iona on black.

If chalice of the void wasn't a card, I wouldn't even consider echoing truth in the SB as chain of vapor would be better in almost every case. And it only hits you for one off of ad nauseam versus two, which is a huge difference. I have had ad nauseam's fizzle due to flipping up wipe away, and I always want to tear the card in half afterwards.

Also, Leyline aggro? Do you mean the stupid all leyline's + opalescence + serra's sanctum deck? That deck isn't really a deck, it's just a heaping pile of crap cards that don't do anything on their own.

thefringthing
03-18-2012, 02:34 PM
One of the few times I've played Dredge recently they had Leyline of Sanctity in game two. I bounced it and killed them.

I was joking about Rifter and Leyline Aggro. Just being passive-aggressive about the content of the opening post.

Has anyone played an event with Bryant's new sideboard yet? I'm interested to hear any stories where it turned out better or worse than his previous list.

zmattk
03-19-2012, 11:06 AM
Bryant, why not 3 Inquistion and 1 Duress in the board so you can Burning Wish for discard and still hit Force of Will?

Bryant Cook
03-19-2012, 11:22 AM
Bryant, why not 3 Inquistion and 1 Duress in the board so you can Burning Wish for discard and still hit Force of Will?

There's 8 maindeck cards that hit Force of Will. I want the best chance of discarding a turn two Gaddock Teeg/Thalia, meaning four Inquisition in the sideboard. How often do you actually Burning Wish -> Duress AND target Force of Will. It's slim. You'll want that extra percentage of discarding a hatebear against Maverick more often than you'll want to Burning Wish -> Duress a Force of Will.


One of the few times I've played Dredge recently they had Leyline of Sanctity in game two. I bounced it and killed them.

I was joking about Rifter and Leyline Aggro. Just being passive-aggressive about the content of the opening post.

Has anyone played an even with Bryant's new sideboard yet? I'm interested to hear any stories where it turned out better or worse than his previous list.

I used to board in bounce, but less and less lists are actually boarding anything relevant in besides Firestorm. If they ever do go turn one Leyline, Ad Nauseam, play everything, Past in Flames, play everything, Empty the Warrens, upkeep Silence.

I've tested the new sideboard. It's been good.

Shimi
03-19-2012, 05:07 PM
There's 8 maindeck cards that hit Force of Will. I want the best chance of discarding a turn two Gaddock Teeg/Thalia, meaning four Inquisition in the sideboard. How often do you actually Burning Wish -> Duress AND target Force of Will. It's slim. You'll want that extra percentage of discarding a hatebear against Maverick more often than you'll want to Burning Wish -> Duress a Force of Will.



Why not 1 Seize and 3 IoK in SB?? Then you have BW -> Discard -> FoW and still has 4 discard spells to fight hatebears.

Basaka
03-19-2012, 06:58 PM
Why not 1 Seize and 3 IoK in SB?? Then you have BW -> Discard -> FoW and still has 4 discard spells to fight hatebears.

The two life matters.

Bryant Cook
03-19-2012, 09:29 PM
I love how people keep posting ideas like I haven't thought of 95% of them already. I put a LOT of thought into every change I make, probably more than most people think. If you're going to post something, please make it insightful.

Final Ritual
03-19-2012, 10:41 PM
The two life matters.

Not in this deck. Your AdN are very strong with the all the artifact mana. I've been playing a 2/2 split. The only matchup it will negatively effect is Thresh and UR Delver.

Bryant Cook
03-19-2012, 10:43 PM
Not in this deck. Your AdN are very strong with the all the artifact mana. I've been playing a 2/2 split. The only matchup it will negatively effect is Thresh and UR Delver.

You're wrong. Two life is very important in a metagame full of RUG, UR Delver, Burn, and Maverick. Even Maverick can create a quick clock.

Final Ritual
03-19-2012, 10:58 PM
I've played a lot of UB Ant and since switching to TES I've never encountered the same problems with AdN killing me. Also my local scene is infested with UW mystic, if I have to cut pyroblast I need something I can hit Fow.

Dark Ritual
03-19-2012, 11:02 PM
I've played a lot of UB Ant and since switching to TES I've never encountered the same problems with AdN killing me. Also my local scene is infested with UW mystic, if I have to cut pyroblast I need something I can hit Fow.

You have access to 12 cards that shut down FoW without lifeloss, those 12 being silence, orim's chant, and duress. If that isn't enough, I don't know how to help you. 8 protection spells is often enough to push through your combo, and if not you can board up to 11 protection spells.

The lifeloss from thoughtseize does matter. I fizzled when I cast ad nauseam at 19 life on turn 1, and I fizzled out and died the next turn due to not hitting enough mana. Every point of life matters a lot in this deck.

Bryant Cook
03-19-2012, 11:03 PM
I've played a lot of UB Ant and since switching to TES I've never encountered the same problems with AdN killing me. Also my local scene is infested with UW mystic, if I have to cut pyroblast I need something I can hit Fow.

Well it's a metagame call then. I'm not sure if it's still correct though.

TES doesn't die too often to Ad Nauseam, it's one of the beautiful things about the deck. However, if you start incorporating cards like Thoughtseize these odds of killing yourself increase. A healthy Metagame has decks like RUG, UR, Burn, Maverick, etc... that make the life total more valuable.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-20-2012, 03:02 AM
Jajajaja. Went X-1 at my LGS tonight.

Beat MUD 2-1.
Beat UR Delver 2-1.
Lost Maverick 0-2.
Beat Tezzeret Control (with Chalice, 3sphere, etc.) 2-0.

I was playing with Pyroblasts, sadly. I killed one Trinket Mage :frown: that's it, pretty useless.

Maverick won the die roll and played turn one mom. All I did was stare at the fucking Duress in my hand as he played turn two Thalia. Infest wiped the board, but I quickly get eaten by two huge knights. Game three, I mull to five and lose.

UR Delver was just a race. Game one, I made 18 goblins. Game two, I won via Past in Flames.

Against the Chalice/3sphere decks, Echoing Truth was king.

Jajajaja.

Gui
03-20-2012, 07:51 AM
Isn't Virtue's Ruin better than Infest against hatebears?

Bryant Cook
03-20-2012, 08:29 AM
Isn't Virtue's Ruin better than Infest against hatebears?

If I was a moderator I'd take away your posting privileges.

Read the last page of this thread, then last three pages of the previous thread and you'll find your answer.

Gui
03-20-2012, 09:39 AM
If I was a moderator I'd take away your posting privileges.

Read the last page of this thread, then last three pages of the previous thread and you'll find your answer.

You mean the first page of this thread, right? Ok, the search thread tool didn't work as intended, I found it now, w/e... In my defense, search thread tool doesn't work on previous now closed threads (when you use it in the new one).

catmint
03-20-2012, 10:06 AM
Out of curiousity Bryant.
How do you see the % number for the matchup analisys in your primer.

Some of them look pretty strange to me:
i.e: Goblins 70%, Zoo 75% while CB Top or Team America is even 50%.

To me it looks like the aggro matchup is to pessimistig while the aggro-control/control matchup is too optimistic. And in general very optimistic: having such an edge over the field should make TES a permanent DTB contender...

Did you think about this percentages you against the random opponent you face or you against someone else similar skilled in his own deck/legacy?

Bryant Cook
03-20-2012, 10:35 AM
Out of curiousity Bryant.
How do you see the % number for the matchup analisys in your primer.

Some of them look pretty strange to me:
i.e: Goblins 70%, Zoo 75% while CB Top or Team America is even 50%.

To me it looks like the aggro matchup is to pessimistig while the aggro-control/control matchup is too optimistic. And in general very optimistic: having such an edge over the field should make TES a permanent DTB contender...

Did you think about this percentages you against the random opponent you face or you against someone else similar skilled in his own deck/legacy?

The percentages are pretty much right on. Each percentage could be plus or minus 5% based on list variation seeing as not every player plays the stock list. Countertop isn't as bad as people think, Team America isn't either since lists have moved away from Hymn to Tourach. TES doesn't actually have that hard of a time with blue decks, blue players really over estimate their combo match-up and get blown out a majority of the time. The deck isn't afraid of Force of Will.

I base my percentages based on past events, testing, and scenarios.

leegoo
03-20-2012, 10:58 AM
Out of curiousity Bryant.
How do you see the % number for the matchup analisys in your primer.

Some of them look pretty strange to me:
i.e: Goblins 70%, Zoo 75% while CB Top or Team America is even 50%.

To me it looks like the aggro matchup is to pessimistig while the aggro-control/control matchup is too optimistic. And in general very optimistic: having such an edge over the field should make TES a permanent DTB contender...

Did you think about this percentages you against the random opponent you face or you against someone else similar skilled in his own deck/legacy?

You also have to take into account some things that add/subtract variance from those %'s that, while important when you play any deck, are really important for combo decks. Pilot skill, mulligan skill and sometimes just what your deck hands you off the top on a given day can matter a lot. There's also the fact that storm in general and TES besides are not very popular decks. I'd say Bryants numbers aren't unrealistic by any means. I don't think I sit down from anybody (well...besides the douchebag that insists that stax is a real deck) with TES and think "I'm a dog" in this matchup.

More than any of that though, it's a %. 85% of them are made up.

Shimi
03-20-2012, 01:34 PM
The two life matters.

That's the standard automatic answer, what I want to say is that with one seize and 3 Iok the 2 life matters only when you open with your seize against hatebear.deck , but this one seize on SB matters always when BW to a Protec. It's a matter of testing and seeing what situation is more common and relevant.. I would put my chips on being the BW -> Protec one but I did not played enought pos-SB matchs against Maverick with IoK SB plan.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-20-2012, 01:37 PM
Countertop isn't as bad as people think...

Win the die roll and lead with Duress. If they don't Force, your win percentage goes up 700 percent.

thefringthing
03-20-2012, 05:47 PM
I wouldn't take the percentage numbers too seriously.

With a little practice, you should be able to think about what cards your opponent will be playing in the first two or three turns of the game and determine whether the matchup should be positive or negative for you.

If someone wants to play a hundred matches against each of the decks mentioned in the opening post, they're welcome to do so, but I don't think it's really neccessary or worthwhile to have statistics that accurate.

Dia_Bot
03-21-2012, 04:28 AM
It's impossible to have statisticaly accurate data for a matchup. The reason is because there are too many variables (your playmistakes, your opponents playmistakes, luck, etc.) The only way to come close to statistical relevant numbers would be to pair like for instance 100 players with different levels of experience against 100 opponents with different levels of experience and let them play a relevant number of games.

But like it has been said before this is by no means necessary and bryant gave a pretty estimate of how hard/easy the matchup should be.

Bryant Cook
03-21-2012, 09:55 AM
I picked up my Japanese Foil Inquisitions from the post office this morning. Can't wait to use them!

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 04:27 PM
@Bryant:
Question:
I've lost one game because of showing A.N. at 19 life playing 2 A.N. in main. That tournament I started 5-0 rounds, althoutgh I won also this march up. So statistics are always the key.
Next I tryed PiF instead of the second A.N. I won some more match ups but almost always I preferred the Other .A.N.
I've also been testing other options like more chants or T.Seize but nothing worked except Inquisitions, Also debating the space of the Duress in side, but again no, so I have to agree with B.Cook again in everithing.
I need any explanation why to play 1 other card like preordain or I don't know instead of the space of the second A.N. because of statistics. and mosts of times ths side strategy involves taking out at least 1 threat that can be prefectly the second A.N or the Card I don't know yet but I need to subtitute for the second A.N.
Please give some answer of which card can be and don't say it must be the second A.N.
This space is Preordain, but please any other suggestion?
Thanks

Bryant Cook
03-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Pelikanudo, your English is pretty broken so I'm going to do my best to understand what I think you're asking.

You were playing two Ad Nauseam, then switched to one Past in Flames due to life total loss on Ad Nauseam, but then Past in Flames wasn't good enough so you made the slot Preordain? My advice? Man-up and play two Ad Nauseam. Count how many times you draw that Preordain and if it was Ad Nauseam if it was better. I bet it's more effective as an Ad Nauseam than a Preordain. The deck isn't looking to fix it's draws in that slot as much as it's looking for raw power. You killed yourself? Shit happens man, you've got to get back up on that horse. In the long run you'll win more games due to the second Ad Nauseam than you'll lose because you only had the one.

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 05:06 PM
Please give some answer of which card can be and don't say it must be the second A.N. That was what I asked.
I simply can't play a deck that sometimes you loose to yourself inevitably, this is contradictory, I admit the fact of doing mulligans, bad draws, but . shit happens?
well, shit happens and I don't prefer that shit happens.
Please any other suggestion. That's the worst slot. I hate that slot. please understand me, I didn't make that deck but I have to agree with each of the cards of that deck because of its pure statistics. People that don't understand this deck and see how people that plays GOOD the deck always think its luck. False! good players make possible that luck, you simply draw the cards that you need to win.
Please any other card for that slot?

Final Ritual
03-21-2012, 05:21 PM
You're crying about luck playing into you losing a few matches? You do understand when you're playing any Adn deck luck is always going to be a factor when you have no control about what cards are being flipped.

What Bryant is trying to say is by having the 2nd Adn in the deck you are able to naturally draw into it. Which is always better then having to Infernal tutor >> LED >> Adn.

maurobad2k4
03-21-2012, 05:25 PM
Please give some answer of which card can be and don't say it must be the second A.N. That was what I asked.
I simply can't play a deck that sometimes you loose to yourself inevitably, this is contradictory, I admit the fact of doing mulligans, bad draws, but . shit happens?
well, shit happens and I don't prefer that shit happens.
Please any other suggestion. That's the worst slot. I hate that slot. please understand me, I didn't make that deck but I have to agree with each of the cards of that deck because of its pure statistics. People that don't understand this deck and see how people that plays GOOD the deck always think its luck. False! good players make possible that luck, you simply draw the cards that you need to win.
Please any other card for that slot?

I'm sorry but if you want a deck that dont take any risks then this deck is not for you. Combo decks arent for the faint of heart..
TBH, I usually played with 2 AdN in the few times I played this deck and they always were good. Maybe you could try replacing one AdN with a EtW and see what happens. .. but playing combo is always a high risk/high reward situation.

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 05:26 PM
You're crying about luck playing into you losing a few matches? You do understand when you're playing any Adn deck luck is always going to be a factor when you have no control about what cards are being flipped.

What Bryant is trying to say is by having the 2nd Adn in the deck you are able to naturally draw into it. Which is always better then having to Infernal tutor >> LED >> Adn.

At least we agree that it is the worst slot...
And Why you side out the I.T. as a Strategy instead of the A.N., beacuse of Burning target not extirpate effects? ... youu even side out 1 C.Mox!..it is not better to side out 1 preordain? this is contradictory.

I can say /guarranty that the next/first slot that is going to be replaced is A.N for the next Good Card that Will occur in infinite expansions...

This is likely my favourite Deck, in conjuntion with DDFT and variants, Tide and variants. and I DO like risk, b ut I dont like suicide. you can extrapolate this situation to real life and you then can understand this.

Well any other slot? maybe personal tutor?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-21-2012, 05:32 PM
Please give some answer of which card can be and don't say it must be the second A.N. That was what I asked.
I simply can't play a deck that sometimes you loose to yourself inevitably, this is contradictory, I admit the fact of doing mulligans, bad draws, but . shit happens?
well, shit happens and I don't prefer that shit happens.
Please any other suggestion. That's the worst slot. I hate that slot. please understand me, I didn't make that deck but I have to agree with each of the cards of that deck because of its pure statistics. People that don't understand this deck and see how people that plays GOOD the deck always think its luck. False! good players make possible that luck, you simply draw the cards that you need to win.
Please any other card for that slot?

Play a different deck?

leegoo
03-21-2012, 05:46 PM
At least we agree that it is the worst slot...
And Why you side out the I.T. as a Strategy instead of the A.N., beacuse of Burning target not extirpate effects? ... youu even side out 1 C.Mox!..it is not better to side out 1 preordain? this is contradictory.

I can say /guarranty that the next/first slot that is going to be replaced is A.N for the next Good Card that Will occur in infinite expansions...

This is likely my favourite Deck, in conjuntion with DDFT and variants, Tide and variants. and I DO like risk, b ut I dont like suicide. you can extrapolate this situation to real life and you then can understand this.

Well any other slot? maybe personal tutor?

Personal Tutor is miserable in just about every situation.

It's not suicide to run 2 Ad Nauseam. That puts you with 1 5cc and 1 4cc spell maindeck (the rest is 2 and below) which averages out to less than what's in ANT. Sometimes you are going to flop off the flips... it's an inherent risk of the deck, just like in DDFT if you doomsday to low life and they have burn, or in High Tide if you Spiral and brick on your new 7, or in any deck that just sh*ts itself.

As far as boarding goes? Why would you want to side out your most explosive win condition? For every time I've killed myself with Ad Nauseam there have been quite a few times I have turn 1'd and just murdered my opponent since I had it in my opener.

But, do as you will, there are no sacred cows in MTG.

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 06:01 PM
@Leego: Thanks, at least you say P.Tutor is bad, any other card? Maybe agree on Preordain? I've been thinking on Gitaxian but it's also Contradictory.

List Of Cards:
Snapcaster, repeal, even
@The rest: any other card?

Namida
03-21-2012, 06:04 PM
I think what people are trying to convey to you is that Ad Nauseam is the best card in that spot, to the point that it would be foolish to try to replace it. That is why no one is taking your request seriously, because they consider you foolish for worrying about the downside of the second Ad Nauseam.

Ellistann
03-21-2012, 06:07 PM
Ordinarily I’d not bother, but since this is a new thread, we might as well have this discussion once…

Since people are trying out Modern and WOTC has said they’re going to be re-printing stuff for modern, what is the best manabase without the original duals?

Is it rainbow lands and darkslick shores? Darkslick Shores and fetches for basics to make the brainstorms and ponders best?* Or a direct port of the Bryant Cox Manabase with RAV duals?
*
I went with:
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vent
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass

Then I changed the MD from 2 AdN to 1 to accommodate a MD IGG, since I figure my life loss will be enough that IGG loops might be my best chance at killing them and not dying to AdN…

I have access to all the rainbow lands since I played dredge, and have access to all the Ravnica Duals and Zendikar Fetches, and figure many modern* players are in the same boat as far as budget goes.

I know the correct configuration, but those 3 dual lands cost as much as the rest of the deck put together and are a step too far for someone who gets to play legacy so rarely…
*

KevinTrudeau
03-21-2012, 06:19 PM
@Pelikanudo- I would not have made the second day of the Grand Prix if the second Ad Nauseam were something else. Though I haven't ever tested Personal Tutor, I'm intuitively kiboshing the idea of running it, as it seems too clunky; however, I encourage you to try it out and post your findings.

Also, we can fetch Infernal Tutor with Burning Wish, which is why we board it out when boarding in protection against blue decks.

@thread- Empty the Warrens seems like it's back to being a pretty got dang good card again, what with Canadian Thresh (not sure why people are calling it RUG Delver) and Maverick getting a lot of exposure. Though board space is pretty tight, would it be possible to fit a second copy of it somewhere in the seventy-five (f'rinstance, in that fourth discard slot)? I'm not necessarily backing the card, but it seems like having the ability to bring one in post-board could potentially be an excellent option in the current general metagame, which really only consists of five archetypes— Ux tempo-based aggro, UWx Stoneforge control, GWx Green Sun's Zenith midrange, LED combo, and Force of Will combo.

Bryant Cook
03-21-2012, 06:40 PM
I just got home from work to this mess.

1.) People have pretty much backed up thoughts on the second Ad Nauseam debate. It's foolish to not play it.

2.) Second Empty the Warrens in the 75 - I don't see this as a good option either. Stifle is still very popular so is Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull from both Maverick and UW.

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 07:09 PM
I just got home from work to this mess.

1.) People have pretty much backed up thoughts on the second Ad Nauseam debate. It's foolish to not play it.

2.) Second Empty the Warrens in the 75 - I don't see this as a good option either. Stifle is still very popular so is Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull from both Maverick and UW.

Please don't say it's folish because there have been TES versions -Recent TES versions and In This Thread with 1 A.N.
And again, I'm not debating that slot I'm asking for options for that slot. For me that second A.N. sucks when you kill yourself trying to make The Epic Storm on first turn. This is my personal opinion . Fine. It's ok.
Please any other options for that slot?

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 07:24 PM
What I am going to debate is the Blodstainer mire slot and the repeated Fetch Slot.

I played vs an oponent that discovered, because I was playing Bloodstained Mire and another Blue Fetch in play, I was playing TES, and yes it's true there is no other deck in Legacy in which you play Blodstainer and Blue Fetch. That issue took out the surprise factor, issue that for a TES Player is significant among many others.

Also the repeated slot for that Fetch is not neccesary you'd better playing the 4 blue different Fecthes.

thefringthing
03-21-2012, 07:31 PM
Please any other options for that slot?Darksteel Relic.


Also the repeated slot for that Fetch is not neccesary you'd better playing the 4 blue different Fecthes.Bryant's explanation when I asked about it was just that he happens to own 2 Japanese foil Scalding Tarns.

Mire could be Strand. There's probably something to be said for just running 2x Scalding Tarn and 2x Misty Rainforest to try to maximize the surprise factor.

Pelikanudo
03-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Darksteel Relic..


If it would be legandary I could play it in order to destroy target Darksteel Relic opponent could control.
Any other suggestion?

Julian23
03-21-2012, 08:30 PM
Please don't say it's folish because there have been TES versions -Recent TES versions and In This Thread with 1 A.N.
And again, I'm not debating that slot I'm asking for options for that slot. For me that second A.N. sucks when you kill yourself trying to make The Epic Storm on first turn. This is my personal opinion . Fine. It's ok.
Please any other options for that slot?

Without being a regular TES player let me state that you shouldn't be talking "personal opinions" here. Especially when your opinion is "it sucks to be killed".

What are the odds of killing 1st turn when running 1 AdN?
What are the odds of killing 1st turn when running 2 AdN?

When the chance of the latter is greater, it doesn't matter that it sucks to be killed by revealing the 2nd Ad Nauseam. Overall, you will win more.

With that aside, if you're really that interested in 1st turn kills, you might wanna look into Spanish Inqusition.

Oiolosse
03-21-2012, 08:38 PM
Hmm..Ad Nauseam comes to mind?

double ritual into AdN during their turn is too much fun. That's why you wanna run two.

ThomasDowd
03-21-2012, 10:24 PM
Please do not feed the trolls.

Dark Ritual
03-22-2012, 01:08 AM
Nothing is better than the second ad nauseam, unless they print a better storm engine (VERY unlikely, ad nauseam was the best storm engine printed since mind's desire when it was released.) Empty the warrens on the draw is awful against all the stoneforge decks in the format and stifle. And I don't like having it in my opener and being unable to play it, because empty the warrens gets worse every turn that passes while a turn 2 ad nauseam is still the nuts unless you're facing burn, are on the draw, and they have triple bolt + 2 mountains + fireblast to make ad nauseam look awful. But you can still ad nauseam from 7 life and win, it actually happened to me when I was playing mystical tutor ANT back in the day where I was at something like 8 life, ad nauseam'd, and won. But really, this deck is built to ABUSE ad nauseam, hence the 4 chrome, 4 petal's, 4 LED's, and 8 other ritual effects. If a turn 1 ad nauseam doesn't get there, you got quite unlucky. If it happens twice in a tournament, you are maybe the most unlucky person ever since, again, this deck abuses ad nauseam better then any deck in legacy at the moment.

Wave
03-22-2012, 03:35 AM
If it would be legandary I could play it in order to destroy target Darksteel Relic opponent could control.
Any other suggestion?

Add Doomsday and Meditate...

The thing is Ad Nauseam is the best card in that slot, the other cards that have been used are either Past In Flames or Empty the Warrens, everything else is just worse. Can we please stop this trolling now?

Awaclus
03-22-2012, 03:57 AM
Please any other options for that slot?
I run Ill-Gotten Gains in that slot, because I also am running Cabal Rituals instead of the Chrome Moxes for budget reasons (or rather, because I was in a hurry to complete this deck before a tournament a while ago, didn't have the money back then and later I've been too lazy to get the Moxes).

However, the second Ad Nauseam is definitely the best option.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-22-2012, 04:21 AM
Bloodstained Mire makes opponents put you on Goblins.

I'm OK with this.

Seriously, all of this has been answered in previous threads. Do some research.

Darkness
03-22-2012, 07:11 AM
@Bryant:
Question:
I've lost one game because of showing A.N. at 19 life playing 2 A.N. in main. That tournament I started 5-0 rounds, althoutgh I won also this march up. So statistics are always the key.
Next I tryed PiF instead of the second A.N. I won some more match ups but almost always I preferred the Other .A.N.
I've also been testing other options like more chants or T.Seize but nothing worked except Inquisitions, Also debating the space of the Duress in side, but again no, so I have to agree with B.Cook again in everithing.
I need any explanation why to play 1 other card like preordain or I don't know instead of the space of the second A.N. because of statistics. and mosts of times ths side strategy involves taking out at least 1 threat that can be prefectly the second A.N or the Card I don't know yet but I need to subtitute for the second A.N.
Please give some answer of which card can be and don't say it must be the second A.N.
This space is Preordain, but please any other suggestion?
Thanks

If you do not love 2 AN in the MD go play ANT and trolololol over there. You want to maximize the chance of getting AN in your early turns. I've been playing TES for about 8 months, in which it originally had the 4 chant effect MD and split of 1 AN 1 EtW MD. Since these switches I've fallen in love with the deck even more. Honestly when testing the 5 loss of life rarely happens and as stated before, you are playing one of the highest risk and reward decks in the format. There are few T1 kill decks in the current meta and even fewer with the correct protection.

jin
03-22-2012, 08:16 AM
Nothing is better than the second ad nauseam, unless they print a better storm engine (VERY unlikely, ad nauseam was the best storm engine printed since mind's desire when it was released.) Empty the warrens on the draw is awful against all the stoneforge decks in the format and stifle. And I don't like having it in my opener and being unable to play it, because empty the warrens gets worse every turn that passes while a turn 2 ad nauseam is still the nuts unless you're facing burn, are on the draw, and they have triple bolt + 2 mountains + fireblast to make ad nauseam look awful. But you can still ad nauseam from 7 life and win, it actually happened to me when I was playing mystical tutor ANT back in the day where I was at something like 8 life, ad nauseam'd, and won. But really, this deck is built to ABUSE ad nauseam, hence the 4 chrome, 4 petal's, 4 LED's, and 8 other ritual effects. If a turn 1 ad nauseam doesn't get there, you got quite unlucky. If it happens twice in a tournament, you are maybe the most unlucky person ever since, again, this deck abuses ad nauseam better then any deck in legacy at the moment.

This is interesting, which lead me to think about this question:
Why isn't cunning wish played with ad nauseam?

It hurts the comboing turn, but it helps with setting up..

Edit: never mind, ad nauseam would hurt...how about cunning wish in the second ad nauseam slot?

plimplam
03-22-2012, 08:47 AM
This is interesting, which lead me to think about this question:
Why isn't cunning wish played with ad nauseam?

It hurts the comboing turn, but it helps with setting up..

Edit: never mind, ad nauseam would hurt...how about cunning wish in the second ad nauseam slot?

Targets for cunning wish? Ad nauseam (for that board that AN maindeck)?? No, AN is always better in that slot,

Bryant Cook
03-22-2012, 08:57 AM
This is interesting, which lead me to think about this question:
Why isn't cunning wish played with ad nauseam?

It hurts the comboing turn, but it helps with setting up..

Edit: never mind, ad nauseam would hurt...how about cunning wish in the second ad nauseam slot?

Same bad ideas in every new thread.

leegoo
03-22-2012, 09:36 AM
Same bad ideas in every new thread.

Why don't we run Angels Grace or Phyrexian Unlife? You can draw your whole library!
:laugh:

Back on track though, I played some post SB games vs. Maverick last night, Inquisition was good pretty much every time I cast it. Infest was fine the couple of times it came up although one game I lost where a ruin would have won it. On the same note I won at least one game because infest armageddoned him... so, I guess I'm sold on infest.

Shimi
03-22-2012, 11:01 AM
Why don't we run Angels Grace or Phyrexian Unlife? You can draw your whole library!
:laugh:



You can go Adn -> ToA for 18 -> PiF -> Adn -> PiF , you draw all your deck and play it twice.:laugh: And without bad cards.

@leegoo: In your testing did Infest was better than Virtue's Ruin? Killing Nobles was really relevant over killing KotR and equiped bears.Thx.

thefringthing
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM
I played some post SB games vs. Maverick last night, Inquisition was good pretty much every time I cast it.That's good to hear.

Infest was fine the couple of times it came up although one game I lost where a ruin would have won it. On the same note I won at least one game because infest armageddoned him... so, I guess I'm sold on infest.Were there any situations where Pyroclasm would have been better?

dillonkbase
03-22-2012, 11:16 AM
I found out this week that infest is better in the mirror at least, round one I got turn oned for 12 tokens. On my turn Mine, petal, wish for infest (hope to draw ritual). Turn two ponder, city of brass, dark ritual, infest.

Waited a few turns, opponent casts Ad Nauseam none floating, goes to 1 life, only found one lotus petal, I responded to it with silence, and he conceded.

Bryant Cook
03-22-2012, 11:27 AM
@leegoo: In your testing did Infest was better than Virtue's Ruin? Killing Nobles was really relevant over killing KotR and equiped bears.Thx.

Killing Nobles, Dryad Arbors, and Sylvan Safekeeper were relevant in my testing.



Were there any situations where Pyroclasm would have been better?

When I play against Maverick opponents they've been mulling to hands with Mom/Bear or Mom/Zenith. Infest has been great for me.

Ah, someone else mentions how infest was good for them and none of you don't attack them? I see how it is. But meanwhile, I had to defend myself for two weeks. Instead of resisting my changes, maybe you guys should just embrace them.


I found out this week that infest is better in the mirror at least, round one I got turn oned for 12 tokens. On my turn Mine, petal, wish for infest (hope to draw ritual). Turn two ponder, city of brass, dark ritual, infest.

Waited a few turns, opponent casts Ad Nauseam none floating, goes to 1 life, only found one lotus petal, I responded to it with silence, and he conceded.

I feel there was probably a better way for you to play this game but whatever works. You shouldn't have responded to Lotus Petal, that's a poor place to do so. In response to the 4th mana was probably the correct call.

dillonkbase
03-22-2012, 11:44 AM
I feel there was probably a better way for you to play this game but whatever works. You shouldn't have responded to Lotus Petal, that's a poor place to do so. In response to the 4th mana was probably the correct call.

You are probably right for a general matchup, but since he was at one life and tapped out(no chants or silences) and I had ToA in hand with 4 mana I thought it was fine.

leegoo
03-22-2012, 12:10 PM
That's good to hear.
Were there any situations where Pyroclasm would have been better?

The only advantages I could ever see to pyroclasm over infest would be the fact that it costs 1 less (2RR as opposed to 2RBB) if you want to wish and cast it the same turn. Against THALIA that extra mana *could* be an issue... but I think it's far worse 99% of the time and running it means you just lose games to Teeg+Mom that you would otherwise likely win. Basically what Bryant said. I think it's a far third behind Infest and Virtue's ruin for that slot.


@ Shimi - As I said above, there was 1 game I gave up where infest being ruin would have saved me (involved big knights) but there were at least two games that infest killing his nobles and arbor's (along with hate bears) won me the game. Killing Knights and Hate bears with equipment on them sounds nice on the forums, but generally if your plan is really bw<virtue's ruin at that point in the game, you have already lost the game. I don't imagine even if everything goes "perfect" (ie - you wipe their board) that you can rebuild the resources needed to win before they find another threat in any but the most rare occasions. Plus post board you already have access to echoing truth.

jin
03-22-2012, 12:22 PM
Same bad ideas in every new thread.


Targets for cunning wish? Ad nauseam (for that board that AN maindeck)?? No, AN is always better in that slot,

bounce/removal, protection?

Ad Nauseam isn't better when you can't cast your Rituals. Cunning wish can find removal or protection. It's more versatile (which is what Bryant says he's looking for).

It's essentially IGG's old slot that becomes more versatile, I don't see how that's "the same bad idea". You still virtually have two Ad Nauseams.

leegoo
03-22-2012, 12:27 PM
cunning wish stuff

your opening 7 is gemstone mine, petal, dark ritual, rite of flame, cunning wish, chrome mox, polluted delta

:confused:

TerribleTim68
03-22-2012, 12:28 PM
Well, I played TES in my local tourney last night. Pretty much Bryant's list, but I still don't run the 2nd Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam). I know everyone says it's better with 2, but far too often I would die to flipping it during the 1st one. I didn't like that, so I cut it. I prefer to cast Infernal Tutor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Infernal%20Tutor) to go get the Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam). Maybe it's just my playstyle but I'm more comfortable with that route and tend to have better outcomes. I know, I know, the numbers prove me wrong. Just saying, my playstyle works better with just the single copy of Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam).

So we went 5 rounds, I never lost a single game all night, I combo'ed off on turn 1 twice. The matchups were - 1x random deck, 2x RDW, 1 Affinity & 1x Elfball.

I need to work on my sideboard some more, I know I'm lacking there. Just got the Inquisition of Kozilek (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek) last night so I didn't have those before, plus I need to adjust some other stuff. Was only my second time playing the deck in a tourney, so I'm by no means a "pro pilot". But I think I got it done. :cool:

Dark Ritual
03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
You are probably right for a general matchup, but since he was at one life and tapped out(no chants or silences) and I had ToA in hand with 4 mana I thought it was fine.

I would have responded to the first dark ritual/rite of flame he cast off of petal, assuming he only had one petal with silence. Or was he terribly unlucky and didn't hit any chants/silences? Because if he hit one of those, responding to the petal is definitely wrong unless you have 4 mana in play without having to cast a ritual/a spell, because your opponent will probably not upkeep/draw step chant/silence you, enabling you to cast ToA for lethal with no storm :laugh:

Cunning wish into ad nauseam is EIGHT mana, just drawing the ad nauseam is FIVE mana. If you can't tell the difference, one might be getting cast on turn 3 while the other can get cast on turns 1-2 very easily.

Anyways, to everyone not running 2 ad nauseams, what are you running over it? EtW is terrible in this metagame of stoneforges and batterskulls galore. IGG hasn't been maindeck for years, and for good reason. Past in flames requires more setup generally, unless you just draw a bunch of rite of flames and or dark rit's in your opener and not artifact mana.

jin
03-22-2012, 01:31 PM
your opening 7 is gemstone mine, petal, dark ritual, rite of flame, cunning wish, chrome mox, polluted delta

:confused:

Lay down artifacts turn 1 (imprint Rite of Flame), Cunning Wish EOT, Ad Nauseam turn 2 (off of Dark Ritual). I don't get your point. That does not argue for versatility.

Before 2 Ad Nauseams were standard, the deck did fine with just 1. Not to mention this adds versatility by being able to bring in removal/protection/win-con mid/late game. The deck kills fast, there's no doubt about it, but it can do that with 1 or 2 Ad Nauseams.

If you are talking about awkward situations, then Infernal Tutor has a lot of awkward situations that it can put you in, but you don't not (yes, it's double negative, try to read through it) run it because it might screw you over. So your one example where Cunning Wish is a LITTLE slower, isn't a valid argument to not run it.


Cunning wish into ad nauseam is EIGHT mana, just drawing the ad nauseam is FIVE mana. If you can't tell the difference, one might be getting cast on turn 3 while the other can get cast on turns 1-2 very easily.

1. You don't have to Cunning Wish on the combo turn (it can be the turn before)
2. You don't have to Cunning Wish on your turn (it's an instant)
3. You can use LED with Cunning Wish.

Anymore questions? Again, not a point for versatility, you are arguing for efficiency. Yes, I can count to EIGHT. Yes, I know it's different and more than FIVE. Can you see that Ad Nauseam is ONE card? Can you see that Cunning Wish can be ONE of FIFTEEN cards?

Ok, here is why speed is NOT an argument for the second Ad Nauseam over Cunning Wish. I admit, that straight casting Ad Nauseam is faster (see I can count), but Cunning Wish adds answers and versatility, which is better in the long game. What this means is (although it doesn't screw over your good match ups because in those match ups a turn or 2 isn't going to make a difference) it significantly helps your bad match ups by adding answers to your game 1 and your dire situations. It doesn't take Ad Nauseam's power away as it retains the main deck Ad Nauseam as well as adds a sideboard Ad Nauseam.

It can find mana, protection, it can find removal and it can find win-con. It's practically like we never lost Mystical Tutor. I think going back up to 9 tutors would be huge for this deck. Also, the 2 life matter significantly, as 2 life can mean flipping over 2-5 more cards (not sure about this, just estimated through experience)

leegoo
03-22-2012, 01:53 PM
When Bryant say's "I swapped inquisition for pyroblasts" I think to myself "hmm... he must have tried this out." at which point I DON'T remove my pyroblasts and replace them... from that point forward I dictate that they are "either/or" and I see how many occasions I would bring them in. Same thing with Virtue's Ruin > Infest. My gut said VR was better, but I tried it the other way... and decided that Infest was correct.

So, let's try a different angle going forward. Just saying "Cunning wish seems good." and then arguing for it (there was a cunning wish variant of ANT - either here or in the storm boards forums - that was tried... it was cute but pretty bad - cunning wish slows the deck down by about a turn usually, sometimes more... so I'm not just saying this from the dark.) doesn't bring people to your side. What about Burning Wish? How is your sideboard going to be built now? Are you just cutting 1x AdN for 1x CW? These are all important questions.

Maybe there is a cunning wish Ad Nauseam deck out there that nobody has caught on to... build one, try it out, post the list, hell I'll try any storm list once... but bring something more than "it's like we never lost mystical tutor"

jin
03-22-2012, 02:50 PM
When Bryant say's "I swapped inquisition for pyroblasts" I think to myself "hmm... he must have tried this out." at which point I DON'T remove my pyroblasts and replace them... from that point forward I dictate that they are "either/or" and I see how many occasions I would bring them in. Same thing with Virtue's Ruin > Infest. My gut said VR was better, but I tried it the other way... and decided that Infest was correct.

So, let's try a different angle going forward. Just saying "Cunning wish seems good." and then arguing for it (there was a cunning wish variant of ANT - either here or in the storm boards forums - that was tried... it was cute but pretty bad - cunning wish slows the deck down by about a turn usually, sometimes more... so I'm not just saying this from the dark.) doesn't bring people to your side. What about Burning Wish? How is your sideboard going to be built now? Are you just cutting 1x AdN for 1x CW? These are all important questions.

Maybe there is a cunning wish Ad Nauseam deck out there that nobody has caught on to... build one, try it out, post the list, hell I'll try any storm list once... but bring something more than "it's like we never lost mystical tutor"

I think the reason why Cunning Wish didn't work in ANT is because they tried to make a deck built on Cunning Wish as a main tutor. This is not the case here. Cunning Wish will only replace the 1x Ad Nauseam as Mystical Tutor often got sided out by Bryant anyway.

To be honest, I think you should play Virtue's Ruin if you feel it's better for your metagame. I think Bryant's deck only applies to his metagame where he would need to sweep elves or goblins. If you have to sweep Ionas or Progenitus, I'm sure Virtue's Ruin is the better choice. I say go with your gut feeling. I think your attitude towards the deck you play is why people hate those who "net deck". I admit, that I'm guilty here as well, but given the opportunity to innovate and adapt, I do that, but I digress.

Yes, I already admitted it would be slightly slower, but I feel that having it instead of the 2nd Ad Nauseam might add more power and versatility to the already fast, power and versatile T.E.S. It will not slow it down as significantly as that ANT list as this deck will retain its Burning Wishes. Burning Wish will still be the Main Wish. The only difference here that I can see will be this:

MD
2nd Ad Nauseam = Cunning Wish

SB
Diminishing Returns = 2nd Ad Nauseam
4th Inquisition of Koselik = Silence

That's what I'm testing right now. I kind of want to fit a mana source in there, but I haven't needed to Wish for it yet.

PS: Your condescending quote adds nothing to the discussion and was unnecessary.

jin
03-22-2012, 02:58 PM
How did double happen? oops sorry.

jjjoness'
03-22-2012, 03:08 PM
What it really comes down to is:

Is the speed you give up by playing Cunning Wish over AN#2 compensated by the ability to wish for Silence or a bounce spell and randomly use LED to cast AN (thus compensating the extra 3 mana and not giving you an advantage over plain AN)

I think the answer to that is no.

dillonkbase
03-22-2012, 04:06 PM
This is crazy....

Cunning Wish is not good. And it makes less sense based if you are trying not to kill yourself. If you play two AN and you cast one, you have one left to hit. If you cunning wish for AN, you still have one left to hit. The only instance it is "better" in is if you naturally draw AN, which is now half as likely.

Oiolosse
03-22-2012, 05:45 PM
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.

To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

Shimi
03-22-2012, 06:07 PM
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.

To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

If you Adn from 20~17 life flipping the second one don't hurt you, things became complicated when you Adn with ~12 life, also if you have a tutor or LED in hand is much better since you just need some rituals/petals and LED or IT/BW.
At my last event I Adn from 18 and could not kill my opp, so I passed the turn and killed him when he passed back, since it was a T2 Adn on play he had no pressure on board so many times if your Adn fails you can just pass and kill next turn.

I would say that at least once per tournament(6 rounds + Top8)your Adn from 20~17 life will screw you(not necessary kill you).. but remember there are times when your Adn from ~6 life save you.

TerribleTim68
03-22-2012, 06:21 PM
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.

To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

Depends on what I'm playing against. :wink:

I have yet to pull off the Grapeshot (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grapeshot) deal and have yet to be in a position where I thought it was worth going for, so I'll skip that one. Typically for me, I'll Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam) down to 3, 4 or sometimes 2. It all depends on what I flipped over and what I know is left in the deck. I only run the single Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam) so I'm not going to Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam) into another one. But I always take a good look at what I've flipped and think about what is left and the odds of what you will flip next when deciding how far to go. Plus, if you're facing burn and they have mana open and I haven't Silence (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silence)d them yet, you need to leave room for a last ditch Shock (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shock) or something too. So it's pretty situational. Having Silence (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silence)d them, I'll go down to 1 or 2 without blinking an eye if I know I'm safe. I like to get as much as I can out of that Ad Nauseam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ad%20Nauseam). Plus I like to watch them when they think I'm going to kill myself. :cool:

There have also been times where I could have showboated a bit more but chose to just win and get on with life too. Nobody loves a sore winner. :tongue:

jin
03-22-2012, 09:56 PM
your opening 7 is gemstone mine, petal, dark ritual, rite of flame, cunning wish, chrome mox, polluted delta

:confused:

I thought of a sample hand to counter:
LED, LED, Ad Nauseam, Land, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Orim's Chant :confused:

You simply cannot argue for a point with example hands in a very specific situation that might be able to kill turn one, but don't. Just because you COULD turn 1 them with an Ad Nauseam in your example hand, I can Ad Nauseam with a turn 1 with my sample hand and neither justifies the card that we are advocating.


What it really comes down to is:

Is the speed you give up by playing Cunning Wish over AN#2 compensated by the ability to wish for Silence or a bounce spell and randomly use LED to cast AN (thus compensating the extra 3 mana and not giving you an advantage over plain AN)

I think the answer to that is no.

Why do you think not?

The same argument can be made for Infernal Tutor. Why don't you cut Infernal Tutor #4 for 3rd Ad Nauseam. Then you can Ad Nauseam as often as you'd like as early as you'd like. Does the speed justify the advantages there? I think your answer is yes.


This is crazy....

Cunning Wish is not good. And it makes less sense based if you are trying not to kill yourself. If you play two AN and you cast one, you have one left to hit. If you cunning wish for AN, you still have one left to hit. The only instance it is "better" in is if you naturally draw AN, which is now half as likely.

The sole reason isn't life, that is partially a reason. The main reason is versatility.


How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.

To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

I typically have 7 storm after ad nauseam resolves (I play against a lot of blue), so I don't really need to draw that many. I've drawn Ad Nauseam a lot since I changed to the 2 Ad Nauseam list, so I've been having to Brainstorm/Ponder my way to win. Which isn't bad, just more annoying.

dillonkbase
03-22-2012, 10:37 PM
I've drawn Ad Nauseam a lot since I changed to the 2 Ad Nauseam list, so I've been having to Brainstorm/Ponder my way to win. Which isn't bad, just more annoying.

I don't understand how this is annoying, especially as if it resolves, you generally win the game. Naturally drawing AN is generally pretty awesome, it is the reason you would play two. As for versatility, prevention is the best cure to a problem, so wining is better than mucking around looking for an answer.

jin
03-22-2012, 10:41 PM
I don't understand how this is annoying, especially as if it resolves, you generally win the game. Naturally drawing AN is generally pretty awesome, it is the reason you would play two. As for versatility, prevention is the best cure to a problem, so wining is better than mucking around looking for an answer.

Cunning Wish doesn't stop you from Winning.

It's annoying because Ad Nauseam doesn't get there. I have to work at it with cantrips. If I had a little more life, I could go a little deeper.

Ad Nauseam is a really powerful storm engine, but my early impressions of this deck was that it can attack from multiple angles. Playing 2 Ad Nauseams is fine, I'm just looking to diversify. I'm starting to think all of the old ANT players are coming here looking for ANT again because it seems that ANT is the new IGGy Pop (just not fast enough).

Tammit67
03-22-2012, 11:21 PM
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

Every time.

KevinTrudeau
03-23-2012, 12:36 AM
Just done got back from a weekly at my store with Bryant's suggested config; went 3-1. There were times were I Wished for a discard effect and wished that it were Duress because of an opponent's Force, but I always ended up finding a Chant or a Duress to go in tandem with IoK before going off, so yeah, Bryant's probably right. Never had to wish for Infest; 'twas awkward against Reanimator when I had BW up against no opposing countermagic and an Iona on black (ended up grabbing and eventually casting Diminishing Returns into eighteen Goblins while I was at eight and the opponent was at eighteen, thereby forcing Iona to have to block, but it was to no avail as my opponent drew Entomb ->Elesh Norn+Exhume).

Changes I'm 100% sold on: IoK over Pyroblast in the three free disruption slots in the sideboard.

Changes I'm not entirely sold on, but were definitely good enough to keep testing with and will likely prove themselves shortly: the fourth IoK over Duress (pretty confident Thoughtseize isn't needed).

Slots that need more testing before I come to any sort of conclusion: Infest (over Silent Departure/Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin), Grapeshot if also playing Infest/Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin (over Silent Departure/second Empty the Warrens), Wipe Away (over another bounce spell)

Echoing Truth is obviously still a subjective metagame choice over Chain of Vapor.

Also, the quantity of times flipping the second Ad Nauseam didn't matter and led to a win:


Every time.

thefringthing
03-23-2012, 01:19 AM
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN.Going off at 18 life, statistically you expect to see (very roughly) about 22 cards on average, assuming I did my estimates were reasonable and I did the arithmetic correctly.

In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.

Tammit67
03-23-2012, 01:50 AM
In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.

Really? I only flip what I need. I'd rather not flip down and reveal the whole deck if I can help it. I see if I have enough with each new card instead of stopping around 7 life or whatever cutoff you have set in your head.

Also is a good thought exercise.

j_rb
03-23-2012, 03:41 AM
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?

I've won off an ad nauseam at at a relatively low life total while flipping an ad nauseam. The decks curve is so low you won't fizzle hitting ad nauseam unless you are 9 or so with zero mana floating, which is very unlikely. Now that I think about it winning from 10 is common with this deck... It's the reason I love this deck so much.

egosum
03-23-2012, 05:35 AM
Going off at 18 life, statistically you expect to see (very roughly) about 22 cards on average, assuming I did my estimates were reasonable and I did the arithmetic correctly.

In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.

This is simply bad. The reason is because you are playing Infernal Tutors, so if you draw an early infernal Tutor, or have it in your hand when resolving Ad Nauseam, you either need to draw cards you can play (or a LED, and LED does not always happen to appear), flipping to the deadline may give you just too many lands or too many blue cards (with not enough blue mana). Summing up, what I mean, it that flipping (with at least 16 life) until you can't flip anymore may win most of times, but not always, just take this into consideration.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Bryant Cook
03-23-2012, 08:25 AM
This is simply bad. The reason is because you are playing Infernal Tutors, so if you draw an early infernal Tutor, or have it in your hand when resolving Ad Nauseam, you either need to draw cards you can play (or a LED, and LED does not always happen to appear), flipping to the deadline may give you just too many lands or too many blue cards (with not enough blue mana). Summing up, what I mean, it that flipping (with at least 16 life) until you can't flip anymore may win most of times, but not always, just take this into consideration.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I understand where you're coming from but how often does it come up that Infernal Tutor with no Lion's Eye Diamond, you can cast every card, and Ad Nauseam hasn't revealed multiple lands? Not very often. I usually reveal until I hit the stop number (Cards that can kill me + variables), then I showboat for awhile.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-23-2012, 11:23 AM
...then I showboat for awhile.

In this regard also, Echoing Truth > Chain of Vapor.

The former lets you showboat while the latter does not. (And I guess sometimes it's relevant to obtain lethal storm.)

Dark Ritual
03-23-2012, 11:34 AM
The odds that you WON'T flip a burning wish off of ad nauseam is pretty low unless you have somehow used a bunch of burning wish. That's the nice thing about BWish, you don't need to be hellbent for it to work you just need 6 mana total.

As for showboating with chain/echoing, it depends on how many lands you have and how many of a given artifact you have. If you have 2 lands, you can bounce at most 3 chrome mox/petal/LED's while with echoing truth you can theoretically bounce 4 of a kind, but how often do you have all 4 LED's/petal's/moxen in play? Not very often. Still, we're debating over how to showboat the best but I definitely like Bryant's plan of tendrils for 18, flashback ad nauseam, draw the rest, cast everything, grapeshot for 60. Still have yet to do that in a tournament, but the moment I do I'll probably be smiling and my opponent will probably life tilt afterwards.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-23-2012, 11:41 AM
The odds that you WON'T flip a burning wish off of ad nauseam is pretty low unless you have somehow used a bunch of burning wish. That's the nice thing about BWish, you don't need to be hellbent for it to work you just need 6 mana total.

As for showboating with chain/echoing, it depends on how many lands you have and how many of a given artifact you have. If you have 2 lands, you can bounce at most 3 chrome mox/petal/LED's while with echoing truth you can theoretically bounce 4 of a kind, but how often do you have all 4 LED's/petal's/moxen in play? Not very often. Still, we're debating over how to showboat the best but I definitely like Bryant's plan of tendrils for 18, flashback ad nauseam, draw the rest, cast everything, grapeshot for 60. Still have yet to do that in a tournament, but the moment I do I'll probably be smiling and my opponent will probably life tilt afterwards.

It happens often for me :cry:

AriLax
03-23-2012, 01:23 PM
In this regard also, Echoing Truth > Chain of Vapor.

The former lets you showboat while the latter does not. (And I guess sometimes it's relevant to obtain lethal storm.)

As someone who has done it a lot of times, I can definitively tell you that Chain > ETruth for Storm ramping. The issue is TES really doesn't care much about that effect as it is rarely setting up for the direct IT/BW - Tendrils. For the 7 you pay to Chain, bounce stuff, Tutor, Tendrils you probably could have AdN killed anyways.


I understand where you're coming from but how often does it come up that Infernal Tutor with no Lion's Eye Diamond, you can cast every card, and Ad Nauseam hasn't revealed multiple lands? Not very often. I usually reveal until I hit the stop number (Cards that can kill me + variables), then I showboat for awhile.

I have yet to have this issue come up with TES, mostly because the main post AdN issue is finding 6 mana to Tendrils with. It's obviously optimal to always calculate if it is lethal and stop if a flip could take you off it, but it's extremely rare that happens in this deck. In ANT it happens a lot mostly because you tend to AdN with more floating, making the issue mostly finding a way to get the Tendrils.

thefringthing
03-23-2012, 02:47 PM
I'd just like to note that one of the few times I stopped flipping on Ad Nauseam as soon as it became clear I could kill my opponent (in the mirror), I got shit from Bryant for it. :tongue:

Sometimes you just want to finish a match to go buy an $8 bratwurst from the shitty GP venue concession stand.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-23-2012, 02:56 PM
As someone who has done it a lot of times, I can definitively tell you that Chain > ETruth for Storm ramping. The issue is TES really doesn't care much about that effect as it is rarely setting up for the direct IT/BW - Tendrils. For the 7 you pay to Chain, bounce stuff, Tutor, Tendrils you probably could have AdN killed anyways.

I should have been more clear. It's easier to Grapeshot/showboat someone for ridiculous amounts with Echoing Truth.

Chain of Vapor doesn't take you to value town.

Tammit67
03-23-2012, 03:01 PM
I should have been more clear. It's easier to Grapeshot/showboat someone for ridiculous amounts with Echoing Truth.

Chain of Vapor doesn't take you to value town.

So you often have more of the same artifact in play then you have lands to sacrifice?

Huh.

TerribleTim68
03-23-2012, 06:21 PM
Really? I only flip what I need. I'd rather not flip down and reveal the whole deck if I can help it. ....

I figure by the time I've got to round 3, they have seen everything in the deck since it's pretty much 4x of each card in it (for the most part). :wink:

Machahiko
03-24-2012, 06:34 AM
Hi,

I'm pretty new to this deck, decided to sell my Maverick some time ago and bought up TES. I've read so much about this deck in this thread, the suggested articles, looked around some of the older threads and watched many hours of videos about the deck being played. I've just started goldfishing and cockatrice either gives me bad hands or I'm lacking something. Every time I get an opening 7, I get at least 4 lands with no filtering. If I get even remotely playable hand and go for it, I start flipping with ADN and always flip another one.

It's actually quite fun to try and learn how to go off from different situations, but I haven't seen (or I've missed) any sort of information about what people like to have in their opening hand. So, out of curiosity I'd like to ask, when do you keep a hand and what makes you mulligan?

Jeff Kruchkow
03-24-2012, 10:36 AM
Hi,

I'm pretty new to this deck, decided to sell my Maverick some time ago and bought up TES. I've read so much about this deck in this thread, the suggested articles, looked around some of the older threads and watched many hours of videos about the deck being played. I've just started goldfishing and cockatrice either gives me bad hands or I'm lacking something. Every time I get an opening 7, I get at least 4 lands with no filtering. If I get even remotely playable hand and go for it, I start flipping with ADN and always flip another one.

It's actually quite fun to try and learn how to go off from different situations, but I haven't seen (or I've missed) any sort of information about what people like to have in their opening hand. So, out of curiosity I'd like to ask, when do you keep a hand and what makes you mulligan?

Ill keep almost any reasonable hand with the AdN or LED in it. Reasonable being defined as able to kill by turn 3 at worst. So something like 3 land, rit, adnaus and stuff is reasonable to me. Beyond that you really just want your opener to have some sort of tutor/bomb and some mana. The best thing to evaluate with is to look at how long it'll take you to go off with the hand. If the answer is turn 4 or worse I usually ship

Final Ritual
03-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Hi,

I'm pretty new to this deck, decided to sell my Maverick some time ago and bought up TES. I've read so much about this deck in this thread, the suggested articles, looked around some of the older threads and watched many hours of videos about the deck being played. I've just started goldfishing and cockatrice either gives me bad hands or I'm lacking something. Every time I get an opening 7, I get at least 4 lands with no filtering. If I get even remotely playable hand and go for it, I start flipping with ADN and always flip another one.

It's actually quite fun to try and learn how to go off from different situations, but I haven't seen (or I've missed) any sort of information about what people like to have in their opening hand. So, out of curiosity I'd like to ask, when do you keep a hand and what makes you mulligan?

TES is a little bit more difficult to just sit down and goldfish. The deck is designed to have options and multiple lines of play depending on the matchup you're up against. So unless you have a scenerio mocked up it will feel a little clunky. UB Ant is easier to fish because the deck is extremely linear, you setup by playing dig spells and discard then chain your tutors into tendrils or iggy loop.

The best way to get better with TES is to play actual games.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-24-2012, 02:07 PM
The best way to Brainstorm with TES is to mulligan.

jin
03-24-2012, 09:07 PM
Hi,

I'm pretty new to this deck, decided to sell my Maverick some time ago and bought up TES. I've read so much about this deck in this thread, the suggested articles, looked around some of the older threads and watched many hours of videos about the deck being played. I've just started goldfishing and cockatrice either gives me bad hands or I'm lacking something. Every time I get an opening 7, I get at least 4 lands with no filtering. If I get even remotely playable hand and go for it, I start flipping with ADN and always flip another one.

It's actually quite fun to try and learn how to go off from different situations, but I haven't seen (or I've missed) any sort of information about what people like to have in their opening hand. So, out of curiosity I'd like to ask, when do you keep a hand and what makes you mulligan?

For starters, cantripping is not a chore, it's an art, so don't go around shooting your cantrips unless you really need to use them. What does this mean?

Ponder when you need to shape your hand. Shuffle if you need more than 2 cards and the top three doesn't have them. If there are two bad cards and 1 good one, shuffle anyway unless you have a way to shuffle. You don't want to be sitting there, and drawing them. What I mean by good is, they have to be the exact cards you are looking for. Not just more double Dark Rituals. Sometimes this means business and mana, business and protection, protection and mana. It depends on the situation. Save your Brainstorms, they are useful for many situations which including hiding and turning 2 useless cards into 2 useful cards. They also get stronger as the game progresses because when you have no more lands in your deck, Brainstorm finds more business.

That said, any opening hand with lands and cantrip is a keep for me unless you need to be fast in that match up. In that case, you decide if you want to mull or not into a faster hand. If you have no cantrip, but have business (tutors/Ad Nauseam/wishes) and mana, that's also a pretty good keep.

TL;DR: hands with land and cantrips unless you need to kill fast.

aljiichiban
03-25-2012, 09:59 AM
Just want to share:

Went 4-0 and swept all my games today @ a local Tourney with TES


Used practically the same list as the openning post except for -1 Iok, +1 Thoughtseize because I only have 3.

Rd 1 Burn
G1: T3 Adn -- tendrils
G2: I started with duress first and found no Pyrostatic pillar. Went off with Adn to tendrils on my second turn.
2-0

Rd 2 Bant w/ wasteland
G1: After a few draw go's from him and me cantriping for a few turns, he played Clique on my draw step in which I responded with Orim's that resolved. my hand was 2 LED, Infernal, Burning wish, and dark rit. He chose IT and i drew a 3rd LED. Played everything and showed him IGG since I had another copy of Infernal in my yard. He conceded.
G2: He started with Noble and showed an early clique on my second turn. I bluffed I was going off by responding with Orim's which he dazed. He decided I should keep my hand. After a few draw go's, and going down to 5 from his clique, I decided to go off on my next turn. I started off with Rite of flame, then Duress. I saw FOW, snare and Daze. I nabbed FOW. Rite of flame, Rite of flame, Burning wish(he snares), mox (no imprint), tapped city for B, LED, Infernal(crack LED in response for BBB), Tendrils for 20.
2-0

Rd 3 GW Mavs
G1: T1 ETW for 12. On to G2
G2: He started off with a Land. I started with duress and saw no hate from him. Went off with Adn on my next 3 turns for a Tendrils for 32 (he had a jitte in play with 2 counters).
2-0

Rd 3 High Tide.
G1: I started off with duress. I saw 2 merchant scrolls, a main deck fluster storm, islands and 2 cantrips. I chose the obvious. I manged to resolve a Silence, then went off with AdN and went down to 1. I pondered into LED which I needed, since I didn't have any black mana available and only have ROF, and petal from the flop.
G2: we both mulled to 6 and I kept a hand of dark rit, Adn, gemstone mine, duress and 2 Iok. I drew duress on my first turn and decided to play attrition with him. my 2 Inquisitions met his flusterstrom and intuition. Then my duress met his FoW. Rite of Flame, Dark rit, Ad Nauseam. I only went down to 8 this time, and played to a lethal tendrils.
2-0


I got a handsome amount of store credit and converted half of it to cash.
Thanks for reading and sorry for a long report on a mini tourney.

I've read previous posts about the 2 Ad Naus and thoughts of replacing it with others. All I can say is that the 2 Ad Naus makes this deck more damn powerful.

j_rb
03-26-2012, 02:16 AM
I've read previous posts about the 2 Ad Naus and thoughts of replacing it with others. All I can say is that the 2 Ad Naus makes this deck more damn powerful.

I love having the 2nd ad nauseam. For one it makes your DR win higher due to having another business spell, and two it makes your opening 7's better as a natural ad nauseam and any mana source is win. That and most people argue hitting the 2nd ad nauseam matters but it really doesn't. The deck only cares about flipping ad nauseam when you are going off at under 10 life, and even then if you get lucky you can still easily win.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-26-2012, 09:51 AM
Round 6 - Bryant Cook (TES) vs Pat Cox (GW Maverick)

Pat had the following:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Wasteland
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg

Postboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Pat later tweeted he won on a mull to four on the draw. Bryant had a turn one Inquisition of Kozilek.

How did this match pan out?

Pat was the only Maverick deck with MBT that I know of. The rest were playing a slew of (splash) hate cards, which included Rule of Law, Leyline of Sanctity, Angel's Grace and other hate bears.

Bryant Cook
03-26-2012, 09:57 AM
G2, I managed to get out of Cannonist/Teeg to find a Mind Break Trap.

g3, I kept a hand of Scalding Tarn, Inquisition of Kozilek, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam.

I went fetch, go. He went Forest, Hierarch. I drew a second Rite of Flame. I fetched, Inquisition. I was doing this to play around Wasteland. Gnab GSZ. He plays a Pridemage, I draw a Chant, he draws a land and attacks. I draw some other useless card, He draws Thalia, then Wasteland.

I was on a draw 1 of 80% of my deck for three turns that we're a mana source, Dark Ritual, Infernal, or Burning Wish and I won that game. Unfortunately, the deck shit the bed.

adrock
03-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Played a local legacy event yesterday and stubbornly used Pyroblasts over Inquisitions in the SB.

Went undefeated except for a loss vs. Maverick, the Inquisitions definitely would have been the difference, where as the multiple games vs. Blade.deck pyroblasts were overkill as chant effects crushed them.

Has any thought been given to Deathmark as a SB choice beyond a wish target?

Cheers,

ThomasDowd
03-26-2012, 03:02 PM
Played a local legacy event yesterday and stubbornly used Pyroblasts over Inquisitions in the SB.

Went undefeated except for a loss vs. Maverick, the Inquisitions definitely would have been the difference, where as the multiple games vs. Blade.deck pyroblasts were overkill as chant effects crushed them.

Has any thought been given to Deathmark as a SB choice beyond a wish target?

Cheers,

read the first post. inquistion does the same thing only proactively. and hits more. if anything it should be a silent departure for that spot. read the first post.

read the first post.

Endure2004
03-26-2012, 08:59 PM
Sup everyone, this is my first post on this thread.

I usually play next level threshold, but I gave this deck a whirl at a 33 man el mira event last month. I've been gold fishing / testing this deck for about two months now, about an hour every day to try and get more comfortable with counting mana, storm. I took bryant's exact 75 post IOK change and here's a quick rundown of how my matches went, sorry that they are pretty vague as it was long ago enough that i don't remember them all that well.

round 1 vs merfolk

game 1
His draw involves two cursecatchers, but I chant him about 4-5 turns in and have enough mana to pay for both cursecatchers and ad nauseam. ad nauseam gets there.

game 2
He has a quick cursecatcher into lord of atlantis draw. He force of wills my burning wish, I don't draw enough gas to go off before I die.

game 3
I keep a sketchy hand where I have to lotus petal into ponder to find my first land. I ask Bryant later and he tells me I should've mulled, as lands against blue decks is good. He says the hand would've been ok against a deck that I would have to go off fast against. Anyways, my ponder gets there and i draw a land. In the middle of this game, we notice a random merrow reejery off to the side that had been exiled to a FOW from the previous game. He gets a game loss, but we keep playing for practice. I build up to 7-8 cards in hand and set up to go rituals into tutor chain to kill him. I chant, he forces. I play out my rituals, counting to have enough to leave for spell pierce, and then go infernal tutor. I was going to just go for IT, IT, tendrils, but I see a burning wish and didn't stop to think if it made a difference. HE HAS BLUE BLAST!!! ouch. lesson learned. anyways, I win this round because of the illegal deck presented.

round 2 vs burn

game 1

this is against a little kid, couldnt be over 8th grade, and he didn't know what my cards did. I ad nauseam'd turn 3 and showed him rituals into tendrils, and he's like, so i lose two life? I show him the text for storm on the card, and he's like I'm dead? yeah.

game 2

He's stuck on one land, so i eat a lava spike and a bolt before I am able to set up an ad nauseam kill.

round 3 burn

game 1
He has turn 1 goblin guide. Turn 2 he has another goblin guide and a rift bolt. On turn 3, i have a kicked chant on his upkeep, and his rift bolt stays exiled forever! :) He throws some burn at me and I am able to set up a past in flames kill at like 5 life.

game 2
I duress away a pyrostatic pillar, but he draws another. I am unable to draw an answer, despite boarding in bounce.

game 3
I think this game I have a to go for a very sketchy ad nauseam with 0 floating and from like 15 life, and I have to stop, brainstorm, and then draw LED, dark ritual to be able to kill him.

round 4 UW adam van fleet

game 1
He has turn 2 stoneforge. I have turn 2 chant into ad nauseam. The ad nauseam, despite being from 20, is weak and I have nothing floating. I'm forced to stop at 2 and go can trip, shuffle, cantrip into the LED that I needed.

game 2
He has turn 1 leyline. At some point, I chant him, only to have bryant point out that I couldn't, due to leyline. I get beaten to death by canonist and snapcasters.

game 3
He has turn 2 canonist, force of wills my burning wish for an answer, and I can't find another answer in time.

round 5 against nich compton

game 1
He's on the nightmare effect..(tortured existence + krovikan horror). My turn 1 duress sees bob, gatekeeper, gatekeeper, liliana. I go off shortly after with ad nauseam.

game 2
he duresses me turn 1 and sees IOK, ponder, ponder, brainstorm, land, rituals. He takes brainstorm. I inquisition him on my turn, and see random stuff and a chalice. ??????????? He's like, crap, I should've taken your inquisition. Anyways, I can trip into business and get there.

round 6 ID

top 8

quarterfinals against gabe

game 1

I don't remember much other than that there's a wasteland involved and an early ad nauseam.

game 2

I punt this match by pondering. I see: LED LED burning wish. I meant to stack burning wish on the bottom. I draw LED and play it to play around discard. Next turn, I draw and it's burning wish. Crap, I stacked it wrong, meant to draw LED next. I get punished, as he has a discard spell to make me bin it, and i don't draw any more business in time.

game 3

He mulls down low (4 or 5) and has chalice on 0 but only 1 land. he does nothing for awhile while I build up lands. Eventually, I am able to go off with rituals into ad nauseam having 3 mana sources untapped. Ad nauseam shows me the nuts, and I echoing truth the chalice, play out all my artifacts and rituals, and tendrils him.

top 4 split

The deck ran great, has anyone suggested running a second volcanic island in place of a fetchland?

Machahiko
03-27-2012, 10:39 AM
Hi,

It's always sad to talk about things like building on budjet, but seems like I have no other option at the moment. I pretty much have the deck completed, I'm only missing one land. Underground Sea. I have a load of store credit in a singles store, but they dont have any ug seas, and I believe they wont have any for quite some time. So I either have to save up money/store credit and buy black bordered UG Sea or get some other land. While saving up for fbb UGSea, I'd like to ask what would be a good substitute?

Rekk
03-27-2012, 11:01 AM
Hi,

It's always sad to talk about things like building on budjet, but seems like I have no other option at the moment. I pretty much have the deck completed, I'm only missing one land. Underground Sea. I have a load of store credit in a singles store, but they dont have any ug seas, and I believe they wont have any for quite some time. So I either have to save up money/store credit and buy black bordered UG Sea or get some other land. While saving up for fbb UGSea, I'd like to ask what would be a good substitute?

watery grave

(badlands could theoretically work too)
so could being a miser and running another city of brass

DrHealex
03-27-2012, 11:23 AM
Hi,

It's always sad to talk about things like building on budjet, but seems like I have no other option at the moment. I pretty much have the deck completed, I'm only missing one land. Underground Sea. I have a load of store credit in a singles store, but they dont have any ug seas, and I believe they wont have any for quite some time. So I either have to save up money/store credit and buy black bordered UG Sea or get some other land. While saving up for fbb UGSea, I'd like to ask what would be a good substitute?

ANOTHER Option other than downgrading to a watery grave would be to sell your store credit to someone, maybe even at a slight discount to sweeten the deal. Then just buy the UG Sea elsewhere with cash. (I do this from time to time)

leegoo
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
If I couldn't get the sea I think I would run Badlands > Watery Grave, but I haven't ever tried either in that slot so you might want to test and see if not having that 2nd fetchable U/B source hurts.

gamer4life
03-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Endure2004 I play a City of Brass over the 4th fetch. I haven't had any problems with running 3 Fetchs. Id say go for it.

Tammit67
03-28-2012, 12:03 AM
Is it bad I'd rather play against a blue opponent than a non-blue opponent right now?

thefringthing
03-28-2012, 12:15 AM
Is it bad I'd rather play against a blue opponent than a non-blue opponent right now?The non-blue (i.e. Maverick) players are respecting us right now, and Chant isn't amazing against them. Things aren't too bad for us now and may always change in the future.

Bryant Cook
03-28-2012, 08:51 AM
Is it bad I'd rather play against a blue opponent than a non-blue opponent right now?

I've felt this way recently but it's only because I'm paying for my luck streak. At SCG Baltimore, Round 3, against RUG Countertop (Maindeck):

It's game three, turn 5, He has two Force of Will in the graveyard, one card in hand (I know it's a stifle), a top, just fetched and played a goyf tapping out. I have the option of Chanting him, then Wish -> Returns floating one, or Wish -> Infernal, Ad Nauseam from 15. I decided Nauseam was the better line of play. Flops the top to reveal a third Force of Will. Devastating.

Then round 5 (I posted this up above):
G2, I managed to get out of Cannonist/Teeg to find a Mind Break Trap.

g3, I kept a hand of Scalding Tarn, Inquisition of Kozilek, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam.

I went fetch, go. He went Forest, Hierarch. I drew a second Rite of Flame. I fetched, Inquisition. I was doing this to play around Wasteland. Gnab GSZ. He plays a Pridemage, I draw a Chant, he draws a land and attacks. I draw some other useless card, He draws Thalia, then Wasteland.

I was on a draw 1 of 80% of my deck for three turns that we're a mana source, Dark Ritual, Infernal, or Burning Wish and I won that game. Unfortunately, the deck shit the bed.

Round after that, Mono Blue Control with maindeck Countertop.

I won game two to drawing every single card out of his hand into a Burning Wish for Tendrils, other than that I was blown out by Counterbalance.

I feel like I'm not losing to my opponents at all, but losing to karma/bad luck. Maybe I'm the only one feeling this, but I should've never of been in the bracket with Mono Blue Control with maindeck Coutnertop. I should've been 6-0 beating up RUG Delver.

Oiolosse
03-28-2012, 09:08 AM
@Bryant - did you talk to the event organizer? Head judge?? Just tell them you are Bryant Cook and you're playing TES. I'm sure they'd make an exception.

More seriously, you posted just a short time ago your exploits at what I remembered to be a good-sized tourney. Has the field changed since then? In a meta full of non-blue where Chant becomes mediocre what do you suggest, 1-2 IoK main to pluck out Thalias, Teegs, etc?

thefringthing
03-28-2012, 06:58 PM
If you didn't want to run any Chant effects at all, you could do -2 Silence, -3 Orim's Chant, -4 Gemstone Mine, -2 City of Brass, +1 Duress, +4 Inquisition, +3 Island, +2 Swamp, +1 Badlands or something drastic like that. This is just hypothetical though; I don't think you'd want to hurt your matchups against UW(B) and RUG that badly.

I think the current plan of siding out of Chants and into Inquisitions is sufficient unless your metagame is really weird. That said, I haven't had a chance to play with the new sideboard yet.

Trentemoller
03-28-2012, 10:04 PM
I played a DE with TES and recorded it. I'm relatively new to this deck so there have been a couple of mistakes due to the relatively newness but also due to talking to myself while thinking and the chess clock time constraints. Changes I made after the tournament were +1 Silence -1 Duress and in the sideboard I did -1 IoK +1 Thoughtseize. Still testing the Anc. Visions. Seems sweet in a discard heavy meta.

Dzy playing a Legacy DE with T.E.S. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23444-Dzy-playing-a-Legacy-DE-with-T.E.S.)

jin
03-29-2012, 03:51 AM
How have you guys coped against Tempo Thresh/RUG Delver when they bring in Counterbalance Top post board? What are some strategies you guys deploy now that Pyroblast is out of the picture?

leegoo
03-29-2012, 06:50 AM
If you think they are on that plan I suggest being aggressive on your mulligans. Between Inquisition, bounce (they don't play all that many 2's so echoing truth has a possibility of working besides wipe away) or just a hand that kills before they drop it.

Isn't this where cunning wish would shine in your list?

@Trentemoller - Empty main is bad right now unless you expect to never see stoneforge mystic. Play the Tendrils. Anc. Visions is a great card in a deck that wants to draw 3 cards in the late game... TES's late game is long past by the time you remove the last suspend counter. If the game has gone long enough to draw your 3 cards, I suspect you are already in a hole so deep Acall won't dig you out. Trash it.

jin
03-29-2012, 09:08 AM
If you think they are on that plan I suggest being aggressive on your mulligans. Between Inquisition, bounce (they don't play all that many 2's so echoing truth has a possibility of working besides wipe away) or just a hand that kills before they drop it.

Isn't this where cunning wish would shine in your list?


lol.. yeah, I can keep Wipe Away out.. I don't actually own Cunning Wish.. I've just tested it on magic workstation. I'm not a strong advocate for it. It was just a suggestion.. much like how Chain of vapors might replace echoing truth. Although, even if I did rely on Cunning Wish as my out, having only one out and nothing to sideboard in seems like a really bad plan.

Also Spell Sanare shuts down the echoing truth plan

leegoo
03-29-2012, 09:25 AM
You are right about spell snare vs. truth... I wasn't saying it was a *good* plan, just that it was A plan. Counterbalance + Top resolving is BAD for storm any way you look at it... I'd say if both resolve there is a very, very good chance you aren't going to win. Sucks, but post board RUG has a LOT of weapons we have to fight through fairly fast. On the plus side most lists only run a 3/3 split, so an early well fired discard spell has a good chance of killing that plan for them.


Siding in the Empty the Warrens and trying to force it through is also an option.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
03-29-2012, 09:50 AM
Hunting Pack :cry:

cash
03-29-2012, 10:54 AM
Hi,

I tested this deck since a couple of month and I have some questions/suggestions concerning Bryant's last list.:

-Concerning IoK, since it gets read of everything that you care about except FoW and since Maverick starts to be a bad matchup with all these hate bears, I was thinking to put them in the main deck replacing Duress. So, in other words, to have 3 IoK main and 3 Duress + 1 IoK in the board. What do think about that?

-For the chant's. Don't we need to come back to 4 chant effects/4 discards since U is less and less played?

-I have also another question concerning bouncers: Couterbalance and Chalice are almost not played anymore (in my meta at least). Wouldn't it be better to play chain of vapor?

-More general question: when you resolve an Ad nauseam with LED in play, do you usually crack it to have mana floating post nauseam or do you keep it to be hellbent with an IT revelad by Ad nauseam?

Thanks!

j_rb
03-29-2012, 11:45 AM
-I have also another question concerning bouncers: Couterbalance and Chalice are almost not played anymore (in my meta at least). Wouldn't it be better to play chain of vapor?
Thanks!
Yea but don't come crying to me when someone shows up and blows you out with chalice :D.
I still prefer 1 truth because it's better against blue decks that pack meddling mage. You don't really want to let those guys bounce their snappys and cliques back to their hands with chain.



-For the chant's. Don't we need to come back to 4 chant effects/4 discards since U is less and less played?


I can see 4 discard and 4 chants maindeck, but my meta is till blue infested so I go 5 silence effects... I see a lot of successful list now running 4 discard still maindeck though. It's probably meta dependent and preference.



-More general question: when you resolve an Ad nauseam with LED in play, do you usually crack it to have mana floating post nauseam or do you keep it to be hellbent with an IT revelad by Ad nauseam?

Thanks!

You can crack it. Or not. It all really depends on the game state. If you ad naus with a mox trigger on the stack or with most of your moxen/petals in the deck you can just leave it. I tend to crack it when I am at lower life totals and don't crack it when I'm at higher life totals... Really high life totals. But really, It all depends... Everything with this deck just depends on the gamestates because its so versatile and open to different lines of play. Which is also why the deck is so good.

TerribleTim68
03-29-2012, 11:54 AM
...-More general question: when you resolve an Ad nauseam with LED in play, do you usually crack it to have mana floating post nauseam or do you keep it to be hellbent with an IT revelad by Ad nauseam?

Thanks!

I typically will leave an LED on the board if I can just for that reason.

leegoo
03-29-2012, 12:12 PM
Hi,

I tested this deck since a couple of month and I have some questions/suggestions concerning Bryant's last list.:

-Concerning IoK, since it gets read of everything that you care about except FoW and since Maverick starts to be a bad matchup with all these hate bears, I was thinking to put them in the main deck replacing Duress. So, in other words, to have 3 IoK main and 3 Duress + 1 IoK in the board. What do think about that?

-For the chant's. Don't we need to come back to 4 chant effects/4 discards since U is less and less played?



2 of the top 3 decks play force of will as a 4 of. Beyond that, RUG and Stoneforge both play other counters that are a pita. When you start cutting chants/duress for IoK, you are weakening yourself to mixes of FoW/Snare/Stifle and the like. Being better against Maverick is fine, but I wouldn't lower my ability to beat FoW game one for it. Blue is still the most popular color in magic.

Tammit67
03-29-2012, 01:40 PM
Hi,

I tested this deck since a couple of month and I have some questions/suggestions concerning Bryant's last list.:

-Concerning IoK, since it gets read of everything that you care about except FoW and since Maverick starts to be a bad matchup with all these hate bears, I was thinking to put them in the main deck replacing Duress. So, in other words, to have 3 IoK main and 3 Duress + 1 IoK in the board. What do think about that?

Sure, it seems ok, but you really hurt yourself against the FoW decks that are in fact still around in decent numbers. So long as the maverick matchup is still favorable, I'd rather tune against the decks that interact with us preboard the most, which means duress.


-For the chant's. Don't we need to come back to 4 chant effects/4 discards since U is less and less played?



Chant is still pretty useful against the non-blue decks, as chant walking them can let you sculpt a hand they can't interact with. I like it more than duress right now, but still wouldnt cut either of them.

Awaclus
03-29-2012, 02:58 PM
A question to Bryant (which you probably have already answered elsewhere, but I can't find it with search): Is Orim's Chant's kicker really worth making it vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity and Misdirection? Why? I can see the reason behind splitting 3/2, but I would run Silence as the 3-of.

Bryant Cook
03-29-2012, 03:10 PM
A question to Bryant (which you probably have already answered elsewhere, but I can't find it with search): Is Orim's Chant's kicker really worth making it vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity and Misdirection? Why? I can see the reason behind splitting 3/2, but I would run Silence as the 3-of.

Yes. Leyline isn't an incredibly popular sideboard choice, neither is Misdirection. While there's plenty of aggro decks running about.

Tammit67
03-29-2012, 03:10 PM
A question to Bryant (which you probably have already answered elsewhere, but I can't find it with search): Is Orim's Chant's kicker really worth making it vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity and Misdirection? Why? I can see the reason behind splitting 3/2, but I would run Silence as the 3-of.

This si what I'm currently doing (mostly for price reasons, but Michael Caffrey is occasionally among the people I test with, and he runs sanctity in UW stoneblade mostly for burn )

Tammit67
03-31-2012, 12:22 PM
Taking TES into Philly tomorrow for a local event. Expecting Maverick + esperblade to be about 40% of the field. The rest will most likely be unnotable with the exception of 3-4 aggro loam that is trending in my area and a couple dredge players.

I tested the inquisition board a couple nights back, and think its pretty decent in the maverick matchup. The postboard matches I lost involved a chrome mox trick ad nausem that flipped into no other mana sources from 17, and a top decked thalia the turn after inquisition. It was noticeably worse against blue though, as blasting through chants is one of the easier ways to stop them from interacting

When is it best to inquisition against maverick? I've been waiting for their turn 2 and doing it the turn before they could cast something, but I got hit by a first turn mom, and a topdecked turn 3 thalia.

KevinTrudeau
03-31-2012, 06:26 PM
When is it best to inquisition against maverick? I've been waiting for their turn 2 and doing it the turn before they could cast something, but I got hit by a first turn mom, and a topdecked turn 3 thalia.

Generally speaking, you're doing it right, although casting it turn one on the play certainly has its merits: Enlightened Tutor can't be cast in response, and any cantrip you might have wanted to potentially cast off of one land will be cast with higher value (for instance, if you kept a hand with only one land, Ponder, and Inquisition, and don't draw another land on your subsequent draw step, Inquistion T1 and Ponder T2 for land seems like a better sequencing than the inverse; you can, of course, sit on Inquisition for turn two and hope to cantrip into a land during the same turn if you're a slightly risky feller).

Tammit67
04-01-2012, 10:39 PM
Top 4'd a 29 person event in Philadelphia today, running Bryant's 75. Redcap's corner is a sweet store by drexel.

Round 1: David with UWb mill?
This is David's first legacy tournament, or close to it. Has expensive cards though. I win the die roll.

G1: He drops a turn 2 howling mine, stifles a fetch land, lets Ad Nausem resolve. I duress with infinite mana floating, see another stifle and force of will. After I see his hand, he scoops.

Board: +3 IoK, out 1 ponder, 1 IT, 1 Chrome mox (Standard blue package)

G2: He plays another turn 2 howling mine, and I ride it to victory after my 2nd chant resolves.

1-0 (2-0 games)

Round 2: Tinac with EsperBlade
Nice guy, apparently knows everyone else from my local store except me :( I lose the roll and...

G1: proceed to mull to 5. I get Inquisitioned, pierced, and eventually clique'd and am a mana short of killing him, since his clock is horrendously slow. Wow that's a lot of cards preboard!

Board: Standard blue package

G2: Sculpt a nice hand with double chant and punch through Ad naus on his turn 2, I go down to 8. Mana leak and pierce can't stop that.

G3: He is able to Slow me down with IoK after my mull to 6, but can't find a win condition. I have 7 lands in play when I silence him on his turn (countered), chant afterwards. He V Cliques with 4 cards in hand in response, I go for it, hard casting Ad naus while he's tapped out. Does he even run force of will? I safely flip from 15 down to 3, he cliques an irrelevant LED, I draw another for turn and play around the Swords to plowshares in his hand.

2-0 (4-1 games)

Rd 3: Joe with GW maverick.
Nice guy, a little scruffy. I win this roll.

G1: Mull to 4 that needs a land to go off (Because this deck is fair). He goes mom, I whiff off my draw, he plays Thalia. Ok.

Board: +4 IoK, +2 ET, +1 Grapeshot, +1 Wipe away, -8 main deck protection

G2: He lands mom and wasteland and some smaller beats, but I diminishing returns with enough floating and it doesn't brick.

G3: He goes land into noble hierarch. I could make 10 goblins and pass, or I could ponder. I hit a chrome mox and make 14 goblins. He boarded out stoneforge and doesn't run batterskull anyway. Man it feels good playing EtW. I miss it.

3-0 (6-2 games)

Double ID into top 8 with Burn and BUG control

Top 8 is burn, maverick, 2 elves, 2 BUG control, Esperblade and TES (me). Matchups favor me heavily.

Top 8: Mark with Burn
He's usually in the top 8 with burn. I lose the roll

G1: Turn one goblin guide, a couple fetches and keldon marauders later, I'm casting Ad nausem... wait... shit... except, I auto pilot and fetch a U sea like a retard. So I ponder and hit the lotus petal that cast the rite of flame I needed anyway. Ad nausem down to 5, can't combo, I go one more card, hit the petal I need. Suck it fireblast.

Board: + 3 IoK, +2 ET, - 5 chants (I think, how would you board)

G2: He plays land go. I inqisition the obvious Pyrostatic pillar he has and cast ad nausem. Go down to 3, but he didnt draw the Fireblast.

4-0-2 (8-2 games)

Top 4: Evan Raisner with combo elves (And I mean turn 2-3 pretty much every time full on combo)
Evan? Why I drove Evan to the tournament and Let him half his sideboard. We agree to split anything either of us wins, as 1st and second are way more than 3rd or 4th. Nice guy. I lose the roll.

G1: I chant him to stop him from actually killing me with my mulligan to 5, and he is happy to just chunk me for 5 a turn. I run out of protection and diminishing returns. with a petal in play, UB floating and no land for turn. It fizzles.

G2: I brainstorm turn one into more right of flames than should be permissible and a second LED. He plays an elf, and I IGG him for exact.

G3: (Punt incoming) Keep a weak 3 land, LED, IT, Ad nausem. He plays elf go, I draw Lotus petal and play land #1. He spits out 3 dudes and swings. I draw brainstorm, and cast it, looking for either LED or dark ritual to go off this turn. I do not find either. Mid brainstorm my hand is: gemstone mine #2-3, Infernal tutor, Lotus petal, Lion's eye diamond, chrome mox, ponder, ponder.

That's a kill. Put back ad naus and ponder, play the artifacts, land-> ponder -> crack LED cast ad naus with 0 floating from 18. But I do not see that line, instead I see the no LED or Dark ritual and pass back with a turn 3 kill. I pay for my mistake and he combo's off into emrakyl. Oops.

Evan ends up losing to BUG control with deeds and counters (never draws a glimpse of nature, poor guy), and we both end up with $115. Should have been first place.

Double post avoidance edit: The Inquisitions are decent. They are fine against blue, but I really would like to find something better against maverick. Darkblast might not be miserable.

The Spanish Tunnel King
04-03-2012, 08:06 PM
Hey guys my first posting for a while (and the first on the new thread - yey). I recently took the deck back up again after going to the darkside (Canadian thresh), so I thought i'd celebrate by beasting up a 14 man local tourney. Here is a quick report :). Fairly standard list (ie with IoK) BUT I played a tundra over the 4th mox (sacrilege) and I still have my maindeck empty the warrens over the 2nd Ad.N. I also chose to man up and play grapeshot over my normal pyroclasm off the board. So without further addo...

Rd 1 Stu w/ Burn (I win the roll)

G1 I go off with the goblins for 10 T1 and they JUST manage to race. :)

G2 Apparently, I forgot that pyrostatic pillar was in fact, a card. I turn 1 sculpted and could burn a petal to duress, but I thought nah, better to have the mana up/storm next turn and I get spanked by the pillar for my loss. Ouchy.

G3 I Ad.N turn 1 and get the goods. (I win the roll)

(1-0)

R2 Tom w/ U/B.... tempo I guess Bobs + Snappy + Jace + force (hes all man!)

G1 I have 1 turn Ad.N. with no disruption but play it out into a force :/. I reasoned that if he got the land-drop and thoughsiezed me/had spell pierce up im pretty much dead in the water anyway. That, and im REALLY GREEDY :).

G2 I get 'one of those games' - wastes/spell pierce/clique/bob advantage for him. Im never really in it....

(1-1)

R3 Ryan w/ G/W staxs (I lose the roll. Against stax... :/)

G1 After much bravado about how many T1 trinis hes been getting, he opens with flagstones, mox stoneforge. Fetches batterskull. I sculpt. He lands batterskull. He dies.

G2 He lands a turn 2 choke vs my untapped islandy lands, but I just use them as lotus petals and go off into Ad.N. (Down to 1 life - phew)

(2-1)

R4 Pete w/Elves (I win the roll)

G1 I keep an ok hand but miss on a few cantrips while Peter makes some guys. I decide to go turn 3 Dim. Returns with 1 U 1 B floating, which somehow manages to enable a IGG for the win :). A REALLY convoluted go off though.

G2 He lands a turn 2 Teeg, and has some other dudes too. Which I grapeshot. He makes some guys and I sculpt for a turn or 2. I go off facing down lethal from 7 with a Past in flames. Sweet.

(3-1) Which is enough to go in :)

Top4

Semi's Dave w/Deadguy (I win the roll)

G1 I manage to dodge some discard with brainstorms, and at the same time set up a kill by cantripping into the Ad.N. floating on the top of my library and cracking in an LED.

G2 I play out artifact mana and settle in for a longer game. He finds lots of disruption, and we draw go for a bit (he has no clock to speak of..) I end up winning this with a dimishing returns (having enough mana floating for Ad.N. but I was on 12 life, which is a little low for my tastes...), with him having been damaged by bob a few times. I boarded in bounce (fearing a cannonist or two...), and save an LED from a vindicate with it. Awesomeness.

Final Tom (my Rd. 2 opponent)

G1 We have some pre-game banter about my going of turn 1 last time and if it was a good idea. Then I went off turn 1 (he raised his eyebrows, when I started playing out petals. The goblins bought another one home for me.

G2 I have a very cantrippy hand, so im a bit nervous, but dont want to mull too hard vs a deck that can lay into your hand so effectively. He goes island, I go underground sea, pass (holding up brainstorm). He brainstorms and I brainstorm in response. I see the goblins and leave them on top. He untaps and duresses me (as expected) and sees a hand of rituals. I play out, bait some counters and empty the warrens for 12. they make it. But its close.

Kill summary -
Ad Nauseum - 4
Empty the warrens - 3
Dim. Returns - 2
Past in flames - 1

Questions/comments/better lines to have played always welcome. And a few questions to the community.... :)

1)...Why not the tundra? It was relevant once in the day (fetching white), and didnt seem to impact my Ad.N.s (plenty of turn 1+2 goes off....). its also nice just to play 1 more land. I was never sad to see it, although I did board it out vs aggro when I was boarding chants out... (Im aware that this might well have been done to death somewhere in the other thread...). Ideally, I guess it would be on the board vs tempo/storm mirror, but thats not really going to happen... :)

2)...Goblins wreck tempo. So I think they still warrant the 1-of inclusion maindeck. Ok, ok so they are weak against batterskull. But you can go other paths against aggro, right? :). The thing that drew me to this deck was the ability to choose the right tools for the right job. And removing a key tool vs a big matchup seems wrong to me... You can always board it out for a different engine anyway (IGG/PIF) :). Why so few goblins these days?

3)...The Maverick builds I saw were siding white leylines. It seems to be they do that if they play thalia in the main and no tutor package off the board. So look out! :). Ok, so that wasn't a question.

4)...I won a LOT of dice rolls on the day, and saw quite a few decks with no interactions with me, and so could be really aggressive with starts and mulls. BUT (quick poll) would you go off Turn1 preboard on the play against someone you know to be playing, say team america...

5)...(another poll) What is the lowest life total you would Ad. N. from (having made your land drop for the turn), none floating, 1 LED used. 13 seems to be my limit. A little lower if know I can brainstorm after it...

Thanks Peeps :). Keep using ALL the storm engines. They are all awesome source :)

The Spanish Tunnel King

PS Sorry for the long post!

thefringthing
04-03-2012, 11:27 PM
On the subject of Leyline, I have to disagree with Bryant. It was common at GP Indy, and I expect it to remain popular for some time. Both Maverick and Stoneblade are potentially packing them.

dillonkbase
04-03-2012, 11:31 PM
5)...(another poll) What is the lowest life total you would Ad. N. from (having made your land drop for the turn), none floating, 1 LED used. 13 seems to be my limit. A little lower if know I can brainstorm after it...


If they have lethal on board and I was at two life but the only action in my hand was AN, I would still try to find a BS or ponder. What else are you gonna do, scoop em up? I have had success in the situation you mention with 7 life.

The bottom line is the game dictates when you "have" to go for it with AN.

The Spanish Tunnel King
04-04-2012, 05:19 AM
Yeah, for sure sometimes you have to just go for it. I made it from 4 once with Ad.N. by generating enough storm/mana and flipping LED, LED, inf. tutour :). But like I was saying, you can sometimes (usually?) set up the kill you want, with the storm engine you want. So at what life do you think 'instead of going for the Ad.N. from 7, i'll inf. tutour for an LED, so I can BW--> IGG next turn, be on 2 life and hope he doesn't rip a lord to make it lethal'. Or voluntarily chose Dim. Rit. with 1 floating over an Ad.N. with none floating. The maths on Dim. Rit. Seems well understood, but Ad.N. maths is a little harder to work out, and could well be less of a %age chance winning at that time... By the way, Im a little obsessed with Dim. Rit. Its probably still my favourite storm engine in the mix. People always give you that 'you lucky man' look after you do it to them...

The Spanish Tunnel King

dillonkbase
04-04-2012, 02:53 PM
I'm not going to do the math, but obviously if you are below the point where AN will draw you less than the 7 cards DR will get you, DR is likely the better option, however its hard to draw clear lines... if you have a burning wish and the mana for DR, you also have IGG, PiF, and EtW available. You really have to take a look at the board state and make a decision.

As for "G1 I have 1 turn Ad.N. with no disruption but play it out into a force :/. I reasoned that if he got the land-drop and thoughsiezed me/had spell pierce up im pretty much dead in the water anyway. That, and im REALLY GREEDY :)." and "BUT (quick poll) would you go off Turn1 preboard on the play against someone you know to be playing XXXXX"

I think you have to look at all the data you have. Does waiting increase or decrease you odds of success? Do you have cantrips to improve your hand, or discard to weaken theirs if you wait a turn? What is their win condition? Do they know what you are playing? If I can't answer any of these questions(or don't have the information to guess) and have a turn one win I always roll the dice(especially if its ritual ritual AN, tossing the hand to LED is obviously riskier).

Awaclus
04-04-2012, 03:47 PM
If they have lethal on board and I was at two life but the only action in my hand was AN, I would still try to find a BS or ponder. What else are you gonna do, scoop em up? I have had success in the situation you mention with 7 life.

The bottom line is the game dictates when you "have" to go for it with AN.
From 2 life, I would scoop em up (or rather, cast the AN and scoop after seeing if my opponent does anything in response or not, but before the spell actually does anything). The odds of winning are so small they practically even aren't there, and AN gives information to my opponent. From 3 or more life, I would cast the AN.

dillonkbase
04-04-2012, 04:31 PM
From 2 life, I would scoop em up (or rather, cast the AN and scoop after seeing if my opponent does anything in response or not, but before the spell actually does anything). The odds of winning are so small they practically even aren't there, and AN gives information to my opponent. From 3 or more life, I would cast the AN.

The information is marginal, you already cast AN, and TES is a common enough deck the list in already well known. Furthermore, if you don't kill yourself immediately you are probably revealing the cards you need to win.

Awaclus
04-07-2012, 01:31 AM
The information is marginal, you already cast AN, and TES is a common enough deck the list in already well known. Furthermore, if you don't kill yourself immediately you are probably revealing the cards you need to win.
Yeah, but they couldn't tell if I'm playing ANT or TES. Also, even though the list in OP is well known, they couldn't tell if I have modified it or not.

If I don't kill myself immediately, I am revealing lands, petals, LEDs and moxes and up to one card that costs 1. Out of those cards, lands do nothing, moxes just build up storm and at least 1 petal and 2 LEDs or 4 petals and 1 LED are required to win and the one card that costs 1 has to be a Ponder or a Brainstorm and no other cards can be revealed or I'm dead. And the cantrip has to hit a tutor. Okay, I win if that happens. But that isn't going to happen, because every time I reveal a card, there's approximately 50% odds that the card kills me. I'm too lazy to do complicated maths at the moment, but even though we ignore the fact that the 7 cards have to be somewhat specific cards in order to win, there's about 99,22% odds to get killed by Ad Nauseam before drawing 7 cards. And even though I manage to get the right cards in my hand with Ad Nauseam, I still have to find a tutor with Ponder or Brainstorm. Not to mention that if the opponent has anything that ruins my plan, it's ruined and I can't prevent it. I believe that the information given to the opponent is often more relevant to the outcome of the match than this almost nonexistent chance of winning the game. Of course, if your opponent already has the information or if it's likely that he cannot even take use of it, it's the best play to try winning with AN here, and sometimes it is better to not even give information about the AN in your hand - it depends on the situation. But usually I wouldn't reveal my deck.

Darkness
04-08-2012, 10:51 PM
Someone took Bryant's 75 to SCG Des Moines and placed 11th. Kirby Kaufman. Hopefully him or her rights a report and gives us in-sight to his/her success.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45373

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-08-2012, 11:06 PM
Someone took Bryant's 75 to SCG Des Moines and placed 11th. Kirby Kaufman. Hopefully him or her rights a report and gives us in-sight to his/her success.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45373

That's me. On the way home right now. I'll write something up later, but briefly:

Reanimator, 2-1
UR Delver, 2-0
Burn, 1-2
RUG Tempo, 1-2
Burn, 2-0
43 Land, 2-0
12-Post, 2-0
Aggro Loam, 2-0

DrHealex
04-09-2012, 03:46 PM
Someone took Bryant's 75 to SCG Des Moines and placed 11th. Kirby Kaufman. Hopefully him or her rights a report and gives us in-sight to his/her success.

I would express great sympathy for any poor girl that would have been named Kirby and not have commited suicide as soon as they were able.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-09-2012, 04:16 PM
Kirby Kaufman (define your pronouns) took Bryant's 75 to SCG Des Moines and placed 11th. Hopefully he ("him or her" is actually "he or she") writes (not rights) a report and gives us insight (no hyphen) to his (I'm not a girl) success.

Fixed.

Vacrix
04-09-2012, 04:16 PM
That's me. On the way home right now. I'll write something up later, but briefly:

Reanimator, 2-1
UR Delver, 2-0
Burn, 1-2
RUG Tempo, 1-2
Burn, 2-0
43 Land, 2-0
12-Post, 2-0
Aggro Loam, 2-0
Fuck yeah. Congrats. What happened against Burn? Couldn't get there with AdN?



I would express great sympathy for any poor girl that would have been named Kirby and not have commited suicide as soon as they were able.
Fuck that dude. Did you take 11th at an SCG? No.
Also, Super Smash Brother is awesome.

Bryant Cook
04-09-2012, 04:19 PM
Fixed.

Kirby Kaufman (http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kirby.jpg)

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-09-2012, 04:19 PM
Fuck yeah. Congrats. What happened against Burn? Couldn't get there with AdN?

I played against Burt, who top eighted. He's a friend from Omaha.

Game one I safely used an Iggy-loop. He had blanks in hand and sorceries in the yard.

During game two, I couldn't get hellbent for the life of me. He landed a Pyrostatic Pillar, and I couldn't recover. I had Echoing Truth because I knew his board before hand.

Game three, I mulled to four and saw double Pyrostatic Pillar.

Vacrix
04-09-2012, 04:27 PM
Indeed. Either way, congrats. TES hasn't been getting nearly enough attention these days. Its good against quite a bit of the DTB right now. If Temporal Mastery doesn't wreck Legacy (it won't) then I'd expect TES to making a big come back in the days to come.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-09-2012, 04:33 PM
I'll have a report up later tonight. Probably gonna write while I do some TO stuff at my LGS tonight.

Awaclus
04-10-2012, 09:51 AM
Indeed. Either way, congrats. TES hasn't been getting nearly enough attention these days. Its good against quite a bit of the DTB right now. If Temporal Mastery doesn't wreck Legacy (it won't) then I'd expect TES to making a big come back in the days to come.
TES has always been one of the best decks if not the best deck, but people often consider it too boring (because of the so-called lack of interaction) or too difficult to play, and/or weaker than it actually is. I'm not expecting TES to make a big comeback, but it would definitely deserve it.

paeng4983
04-10-2012, 11:56 PM
Kirby Kaufman (http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kirby.jpg)

Yes. This is what popped out of my mind when I saw Kirby's name in the list
http://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kirby.jpg

*huh Kirby playing storm?! AWESOME!*

Kidding aside, congrats Kirby!
Hopefully I'll make it to the Top in the upcoming April 22nd Legacy Tournament here in Manila.

Im expecting a meta full of: RUG, UR, UW, BANT, dredge, RDW, reanimators and mavs.
Any tips there guys ;-)
thanks

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-11-2012, 01:27 AM
Report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23549-Storming-to-11th-Star-City-Games-Des-Moines&p=633115#post633115)

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-12-2012, 10:17 AM
Anyone else think Wipe Away just really sucks right now? As of late, it's been my least favorite sideboard card.

Obviously a meta choice, but I think it'd be stronger as something else right now. Not sure what though.

We cut Krosan Grip, might be time to cut Wipe Away.

Also if I had three or more lands against RUG Tempo at any given moment, odds are I wasn't losing that game.

With six post board discard effects, it's easily discarded.

Mother of Runes + Hatebear isn't reason enough for me.

leegoo
04-12-2012, 10:58 AM
Wipe Away isn't an all star by any stretch... but cutting it for a bounce spell that costs 1 or 2 puts you at an awkward place sometimes vs CB or Chalice.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Wipe Away isn't an all star by any stretch... but cutting it for a bounce spell that costs 1 or 2 puts you at an awkward place sometimes vs CB or Chalice.

If someone lands a chalice at two, we're probably losing anyway. We can't wish for Shattering Spree. And our only hopes of winning are some wonky ritual chains that flop into an Ad Nauseam revealing Tendrils.

Yes, Wipe Away is an out to Counterbalance, but the current decks that play it don't have many twos to flip to counter Echoing Truth.

And drawing a miser's 3cc bounce spell doesn't seem too great against decks that are some how landing a chalice for two against us.

Machahiko
04-12-2012, 11:33 AM
Wipe Away is the only bounce spell that can help against Mother of Runes + Hatebear. Infest sure do does help, but you have to tutor Infest, pass turn. Play Infest, pass turn and hope that there won't be another Ethersworn Canonist. I myself have been really happy with Wipe Away with my limited testing. :-)

TerribleTim68
04-12-2012, 11:37 AM
Played TES again at the local tourney last night. Quick report -

Round 1 (vs a Modern W/U Token deck):
Game 1 - Not much of a contest, he tried to get going and I went off on turn two with a Tendrils for about 24.
Game 2 - I decided to try out the Inquisitions since it seemed that I didn't need the Chants. Not sure I made the right call. My opening hand wasn't great so I punted with a turn 2 Tendrils for 16 to buy me some time since he was coming out really fast. I was down to 2 by the time I put together the rest of it to Grapeshot him for 4 and end the game.
(1-0)

Round 2 (vs U/W Control):
Game 1 - He had a lot of counters and I drew like a chump. :frown:
Game 2 - I came out swinging with a turn 2 Chant, then Tendrils for lethal.
Game 3 - He drops a Leyline from his opening hand and I can't find the bounce I boarded in and die to counters keeping me from doing much since I can't Chant or Duress him.
(1-1)

Round 3 (vs Mono W Lifegain):
Game 1 - He comes out of the gate gaining a ton of life. I have to Grapeshot to clear the board, then Tedrils him back to a reasonable life total, all in one turn. A littel while later I manage to Tendrils for lethal.
Game 2 - He mulls down to 5, I assumed searching for a Leyline. I turn 1 Duress him seeing a lot of lands and 2 dudes. After he drops a few dudes, I Grapeshot his board away and sculpt for a bit before I Tendrils for lethal.
(2-1)

Round 4 (vs U/G something) (I say something because I didn't see much of it):
Game 1 - With him on the play and me seeing blue mana on the board I turn 1 sculpt. Turn 2 was bloody, I Chant him and then Tendrils for lethal. The only thing I saw out of his deck was 2 U/G fetches that fetched U/G duals, so I really have no clue what I'm facing.
Game 2 - He mulls loking for that Leyline and doesn't see it. So he mulls again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, down to 1 card. I'm looking at opening an hand of Lotus Petal, Rite, Rite, Ritual, Ritual, Burning Wish, Chrome Mox. He was on the play so he passes turn with his single card in hand and I turn 1 Empty for 10 Goblins. Not much of a game and I still have no clue what he was playing.
(3-1)

I ended up 5th on tie breakers since the one round loss I had ended up going 2-2. It never fails that I brick against someone who places low. I'm either 1st or 5th. :tongue:

Thoughts on choices I made; I liked the Inquisitions against a few decks but honestly the meta on this night didn't call for them. I played like crap facing a Leyline, not thinking things through. I need to get better there. The problem is what to do when you can't Chant or Duress your opponent and he gets to hide behind the Leyline and his counters and keep you from bouncing the Leyline. I tried to go Empty for the win but he was able to counter me before I could get going.

DrHealex
04-12-2012, 12:07 PM
Fuck that dude. Did you take 11th at an SCG? No.
Also, Super Smash Brother is awesome.

Actually I did take 11th at a SCG, no my name is not Kirby, and yes the Nintendo character Kirby is awesome.

My post was regarding the absurd implication that the name Kirby was unisexual. There is nothing wrong with the name Kirby for a guy. Well... Maybe except for the fact that the 2 most prominent associations to that name are both known for their SUCKING ability (Kirby the nintento character, and Kirby the Vacuum Cleaner). Congrats btw :p

Has there ever been discussion about moving from 2 ET, 1 Wipe away, to 1 CoV, 1 ET, 1 Wipe away? are the benefits of ET just that much better than CoV in the matchups where you want the bounce?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-12-2012, 12:28 PM
Opponent has Chalice of the Void at 0 and 1 in play.

Echoing Truth beats it. Chain of Vapor doesn't.

I don't see any real reason to play Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth.

emidln
04-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Opponent has Chalice of the Void at 0 and 1 in play.

Echoing Truth beats it. Chain of Vapor doesn't.

I don't see any real reason to play Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth.

Because you see 50 copies of Thalia for every 1 copy of Chalice of the Void?

Awaclus
04-12-2012, 01:43 PM
I'm playing 3x Echoing Truth on my sideboard, because Dredge is very common in my meta, because I hate running lots of singletons in the maindeck (with this, I mean that I side them in and then they're in my deck; singletons are okay when they're in the sideboard and left there just for wishing purposes) and because I don't currently own any CoVs or Wipe Aways (but getting them wouldn't be a problem if they were that much better).

ThomasDowd
04-12-2012, 03:09 PM
I hate wipe away so much. I have moved to a 2 /1 split on truth/chain (favor depends on the week) most of the time it's chain over truth.

Flipping a wipe away to an ad nauseum is also one of the worst feelings.

Dark Ritual
04-12-2012, 04:32 PM
Because you see 50 copies of Thalia for every 1 copy of Chalice of the Void?

A thousand times this. Chalice isn't much of a concern for me at all, and at the GP I regretted running echoing truth and not chain of vapor, as chalice decks are very rare at GPs and such. The decks to beat for us are maverick, where chain of vapor shines, RUG, and other random permanent hate decks where you want cmc 1 bounce because it is the cheapest.

Also, I wouldn't even board echoing truth against dredge. You chant walk them until you win or you just goldfish them on turn 2. You aren't the control deck against dredge, you're the "I'm going to kill you as fast as possible" deck in the matchup. And echoing truth does nothing against therapies ripping your hand to shreds. And echoing truth deals 2 off of ad nauseam, while chant/discard deals 1.

I also hate flipping wipe away off of ad nauseam, and even when I draw it before I combo the card is typically bad as I have to jump through hoops to cast it with its 1UU casting cost, especially when I have to use a lotus petal or something to make the mana necessary. And wasteland is far too powerful against wipe away for my tastes, as your opponent drawing double wasteland or even one just shuts down wipe away unless you draw into lots of lands.

Darkness
04-12-2012, 09:30 PM
So my friend and I have been testing for an up and coming SCG event. He's playing Reanimator and I and playing T.E.S.. Upon testing the sideboard I find that I want Virtue's Ruin over Infest only when an equipment spell is play with the hate bear. Can anyone else share their experiences with infest vs Virtue's Ruin I agree that Infest is better overall but there are certain situations that Virtue's Ruin go's over the top.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-13-2012, 12:06 AM
So my friend and I have been testing for an up and coming SCG event. He's playing Reanimator and I and playing T.E.S.. Upon testing the sideboard I find that I want Virtue's Ruin over Infest only when an equipment spell is play with the hate bear. Can anyone else share their experiences with infest vs Virtue's Ruin I agree that Infest is better overall but there are certain situations that Virtue's Ruin go's over the top.

If you let them play an equipment, you probably punted.

@Emidln, Dark Ritual, everyone else: With my luck, I run into Chalice way more based on variance than I do Thalia. Think we have enough to deal with the latter and not the former. I just hate Wipe Away. Necessary evil? Mostly likely :/

Edit: Would it be a good time to revisit Defense Grid against tempo decks? Saying RUG is arguably our worst match up among tier one decks. Spell Snare. I know. Probably a shitty idea.

joemauer
04-13-2012, 12:21 AM
The chant effects seem to be better than defense grids in most situations.

Clown of Tresserhorn
04-13-2012, 12:32 AM
Defense grid has been the stone kold nuts for me.

My board plan vs. RUG has been:

-1 Ad naus
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Duress
-1 Ponder

+2 Defense Grid
+1 Past in Flames
+2 Pyroblast

Defense grid basically invalidates RUG's entire deck. I board in the PIF since I often go off with low life. With 5 chants and 2 grid, I can still wish -> IGG if I don't have the setup for PIF.

Also: Reanimator has always been the toughest MU for TES (atleast in my mind).

Bryant Cook
04-13-2012, 09:09 AM
Edit: Would it be a good time to revisit Defense Grid against tempo decks? Saying RUG is arguably our worst match up among tier one decks. Spell Snare. I know. Probably a shitty idea.

I don't believe so. Between Snares/Pierce/Daze etc. I don't see it resolving, it's a lot invested in a card that can be ignored too. I'm happy with Inquisitions.

I have a slightly updated list that will be released sometime after this weekend.

Matt
04-13-2012, 03:43 PM
Just now looking into the Des Moines tournament. So much RUG... Congrats on getting as far as you did, as the meta didn't seem too favorable for TES. Though, RUG seems to be skimping a bit on counters and I don't really see much hate in their side either. Maybe one deck running the Counterbalance package... Good stuff.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-14-2012, 09:27 AM
Just now looking into the Des Moines tournament. So much RUG... Congrats on getting as far as you did, as the meta didn't seem too favorable for TES. Though, RUG seems to be skimping a bit on counters and I don't really see much hate in their side either. Maybe one deck running the Counterbalance package... Good stuff.

I was paired against the version playing countertop in the swiss.

The meta was quite favorable actually. There were plenty of decks that couldn't interact with me. Maverick was lightly represented, though one snuck into the top eight.

Many of the RUG Tempo decks finally cut Snapcaster Mage and added 4 Stifle, which I've advocated since the printing of Delver.

thefringthing
04-15-2012, 12:01 AM
There's a Miracle Wheel of Fortune. 3RR Sorcery, miracle cost is 1R.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_AVR/9LrurBd32JHBrLHbAAgTM52t4xtxDQuv.jpg

Obvious comparisons are to Diminishing Returns (good enough as a Burning Wish target), and Time Reversal (not good enough). As a Wish target, this costs full price unless you get really tricky. Maindeck, there's the obvious Ad Nauseam problem.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-15-2012, 12:26 AM
And?

Awful. Want's a better mana base and probably SDT.

The Big Ragu
04-15-2012, 02:52 AM
Might as well be running Marsh Goblins.

Vacrix
04-15-2012, 03:14 AM
Keep in mind you can Brainstorm into it and cast it on the opponents turn. Pretty tech if you can set that up somehow.

Final Fortune
04-15-2012, 07:20 AM
It'll be interesting to compare the casting cost requirements, 3RR vs 2UU despite being more costly may be more convenient considering you can cast it with Rite of Flame(s) and without Lion's Eye Diamond, and you also discard and draw 7 cards instead of reshuffling your hand and graveyard together, RFGing 10 cards and possibly removing Tendrils of Agony and then drawing 7 cards so any Rite of Flames you used to cast Reforge the Soul are left in the graveyard empowering additional Rite of Flames and you'll never have to Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony for the kill sequence.

The Burning Wish for Reforge the Soul, followed by Brainstorm putting the Reforge the Soul on top of your deck for a 1R casting cost is just wishful thinking IMO, but it may come up once and a blue moon.

The other thing that comes to mind is while it may not be an obvious inclusion in TES, it may be a definite inclusiong in R/g Belcher where a 3RR Wheel of Fortune actually matters given the synergy with so many red rituals, especially Seething Song, and the need for threat density combined with the sickest top deck of all time.

I think it's a fringe playable in Storm, if you play Ill Gotten Gains and Past in Flames together in the SB it's no less absurd than Diminishing Returns and Reforge the Soul IMO, and it may turn out to be really good in something completely unexpected like Sneak Attack.

Edit: Wow this is fucking busted with Personal Tutor.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-15-2012, 10:12 AM
It'll be interesting to compare the casting cost requirements, 3RR vs 2UU despite being more costly may be more convenient considering you can cast it with Rite of Flame(s) and without Lion's Eye Diamond, and you also discard and draw 7 cards instead of reshuffling your hand and graveyard together, RFGing 10 cards and possibly removing Tendrils of Agony and then drawing 7 cards so any Rite of Flames you used to cast Reforge the Soul are left in the graveyard empowering additional Rite of Flames and you'll never have to Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony for the kill sequence.

The Burning Wish for Reforge the Soul, followed by Brainstorm putting the Reforge the Soul on top of your deck for a 1R casting cost is just wishful thinking IMO, but it may come up once and a blue moon.

The other thing that comes to mind is while it may not be an obvious inclusion in TES, it may be a definite inclusiong in R/g Belcher where a 3RR Wheel of Fortune actually matters given the synergy with so many red rituals, especially Seething Song, and the need for threat density combined with the sickest top deck of all time.

I think it's a fringe playable in Storm, if you play Ill Gotten Gains and Past in Flames together in the SB it's no less absurd than Diminishing Returns and Reforge the Soul IMO, and it may turn out to be really good in something completely unexpected like Sneak Attack.

Edit: Wow this is fucking busted with Mind's Desire.

I can't ever see my self tutoring for this over Ad Nauseam or any other of our storm engines that win on the spot. The wheel and deal method isn't worth drawing 7 at 5cc for a chance to win. At least Diminishing Returns is only 4cc.

I'd rather draw 20+.

majikal
04-15-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't think TES wants this card. But I think a Storm deck that focuses more on Past In Flames really, really wants this card. It's a fucking amazing engine, and once you go off you will likely draw your whole deck. I don't expect it to stay legal for long.

thefringthing
04-15-2012, 03:10 PM
I think the only realistic question is whether we want this over Diminishing Returns.

It costs one more, but doesn't require double blue. It does need triple red if you're casting it the same turn you're wishing for it, so it's not a whole lot less reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond. If you're way behind and have a Brainstorm and a Wish, you can cast it on the cheap the following turn, but I don't know if that's a worthwhile use of the two cards you spent to set it up. It doesn't have the irritating exile ten clause that Diminishing Returns comes with, and dumping things in the yard is better than shuffling them back in most of the time.

azador
04-15-2012, 03:28 PM
I think the only realistic question is whether we want this over Diminishing Returns.

It costs one more, but doesn't require double blue. It does need triple red if you're casting it the same turn you're wishing for it, so it's not a whole lot less reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond. If you're way behind and have a Brainstorm and a Wish, you can cast it on the cheap the following turn, but I don't know if that's a worthwhile use of the two cards you spent to set it up. It doesn't have the irritating exile ten clause that Diminishing Returns comes with, and dumping things in the yard is better than shuffling them back in most of the time.

I follow and agree, it certainly is worth trying, worse case scenario is I test it out a few locals, hate the fact that it costs 1 more mana, and go back to Diminishing Returns.

As for the brainstorming it on top to cast on the turn following a wish, I don't see that being very relevant often, though I can say that there are at least a couple times playing against deadguy or the rock that I'd been getting my hand torn apart and wastelanded a couple times. A 2 mana wheel could be sweet in that scenario.

Awaclus
04-15-2012, 03:36 PM
If you have 5 mana available, Diminishing Returns should win you the game with odds of around 45% and this new card with odds of around 20%. If you have 6 mana available, the numbers are around 70% and 45%. If you have 4 mana available, Diminishing Returns can win you the game with 20% odds, but the new spell cannot. I don't remember the exact numbers, but these are close enough (I think you can find them from the opening post).

The difference is quite big in my opinion.

joemauer
04-15-2012, 03:52 PM
If you have 5 mana available, Diminishing Returns should win you the game with odds of around 45% and this new card with odds of around 20%. If you have 6 mana available, the numbers are around 70% and 45%. If you have 4 mana available, Diminishing Returns can win you the game with 20% odds, but the new spell cannot. I don't remember the exact numbers, but these are close enough (I think you can find them from the opening post).

The difference is quite big in my opinion.

I'm not advocating new wheel over diminishing returns, but your logic is somewhat flawed. The new wheel could help in more subtle ways because you keep your graveyard. This is revelant when looking to use the past in flames engine and when you have one or two rites of flames in the graveyard which could offset the initial mana cost of new wheel.

Don't forget you will have peace of mind knowing your tendrils will be in your library or graveyard after casting wheel instead of DR.

Final Fortune
04-15-2012, 06:04 PM
You can't compare Reforge the Soul to Diminishing Returns directly because you're casting Reforge the Soul specifically off of 2xRite of Flame where you couldn't cast Diminishing Returns absent Lion's Eye Diamond.

That said, I think you should probably build your Storm deck around Personal Tutor and Reforge the Soul instead of SBing Reforge the Soul in addition to Diminishing Returns in TES, playing a set of these things with Brainstorm and Personal Tutor as the "mana cheating engine" with Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens as your back up win condition is bonkers.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-16-2012, 12:39 AM
BAM.

Weston Brown, 15th at SCG Phoenix.

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Instants
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Orim's Chant
1 Silence

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
1 Tendrils of Agony

Lands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Shattering Spree
1 Silent Departure
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


Maybe a typo on SCG's website, but 4 Ad Nauseam and 63 cards?

gamer4life
04-16-2012, 12:57 AM
I was thinking the same thing,lol. It has to be a typo.

albertomp1985
04-16-2012, 04:22 AM
63 cards in main deck?

Dark Ritual
04-16-2012, 02:28 PM
I was thinking "wait, what did he cut for those? Everything else is still there" it must be a typo or something, I can't see 4 ad nauseam's being a thing 2 is the optimal number. Rolling with 4 ad nauseam's is something I wouldn't want to do almost ever.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-16-2012, 02:48 PM
I was thinking "wait, what did he cut for those? Everything else is still there" it must be a typo or something, I can't see 4 ad nauseam's being a thing 2 is the optimal number. Rolling with 4 ad nauseam's is something I wouldn't want to do almost ever.

Unless it's Vintage.

Que
04-16-2012, 03:57 PM
I drove up to Phoenix with Weston. Its not 4 ad nauseums lol. He just writes in chicken scratch xD Its 2 Adnausem.

We were literally writing out decklists and trying to scrounge up our last sideboard cards albeit with some difficulty hence some more liberal SB cards (ex Darkblast). His deck was in fact 61 cards though because he registered a Gitaxian Probe that shouldn't have been. Don't know if Probe was a hindrance or actually helped in some weird way haha I didn't actually ask.

COBBLER
04-16-2012, 08:31 PM
Hi I am Weston don't play 61 cards it's Questionable as fuck but the probe was actualy fine.

Vacrix
04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
You can't compare Reforge the Soul to Diminishing Returns directly because you're casting Reforge the Soul specifically off of 2xRite of Flame where you couldn't cast Diminishing Returns absent Lion's Eye Diamond.

That said, I think you should probably build your Storm deck around Personal Tutor and Reforge the Soul instead of SBing Reforge the Soul in addition to Diminishing Returns in TES, playing a set of these things with Brainstorm and Personal Tutor as the "mana cheating engine" with Infernal Tutor, Past in Flames and Empty the Warrens as your back up win condition is bonkers.
Except that Personal Tutor is terrible. Its not like Mystical Tutor where you can hide your business spell on top in response to discard. I think this card goes into a different deck with a different engine. Even if you manage to Chant them first, 7 cards isn't nearly as good as what you can draw with AdN.


I don't think TES wants this card. But I think a Storm deck that focuses more on Past In Flames really, really wants this card. It's a fucking amazing engine, and once you go off you will likely draw your whole deck. I don't expect it to stay legal for long.
This.

This Miracle card isn't RFG upon resolution so with PiF you can do absolutely retarded things like Noxious Revival --> Gitixian Probe-->LED Draw 7... x2 LED, discard your hand, Past in Flames... resolve your graveyard into BW--> Tendrils.

Wait.. isn't this card broken with Dream Salvage?

iPhael
04-16-2012, 09:27 PM
Except that Personal Tutor is terrible. Its not like Mystical Tutor where you can hide your business spell on top in response to discard. I think this card goes into a different deck with a different engine. Even if you manage to Chant them first, 7 cards isn't nearly as good as what you can draw with AdN.


This.

This Miracle card isn't RFG upon resolution so with PiF you can do absolutely retarded things like Noxious Revival --> Gitixian Probe-->LED Draw 7... x2 LED, discard your hand, Past in Flames... resolve your graveyard into BW--> Tendrils.

Wait.. isn't this card broken with Dream Salvage?


This is wrong, unless you somehow skip your draw step. Miracles only trigger on the first card drawn that turn. The only real way to abuse it is with personal tutor, or with library manipulation (Top/Ponder/Brainstorm).

It costs too much to hardcast IMO, wishing into it with a couple floating would be a chore, and under almost any circumstance, would be worse then our other options (PiF/Iggy/DR).

EDIT: I'm retarded. Misinterpreted your post :P

Vacrix
04-16-2012, 09:29 PM
You can Miracle on the opponent's turn, my bad. If you can find 2 more mana you can make that play that I mention, shouldn't be hard; Petal + IMS. ESG/SSG isn't hard to come by. Granted, you have to wait til your turn but you'll still start with 7 cards in hand.

Also, Belcher frequently resolves EtW for 3R mostly with some extra mana floating. It can also get to Belcher for 4. I'm fairly confident that you can get to 3RR, especially when you can just LED, LED into PiF and then do it all over again.

JJ-JKidd
04-17-2012, 04:23 AM
Some crazy land just spoiled:

Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
: Add to your mana pool.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Not sure if confirmed, not also sure if is playable in TES. UB Storm maybe?

lordofthepit
04-17-2012, 05:03 AM
Some crazy land just spoiled:

Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
: Add to your mana pool.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Not sure if confirmed, not also sure if is playable in TES. UB Storm maybe?

Let's wait for confirmation of the card and the actual text, but according to the templating you just provided, this land is basically an inferior Darksteel Citadel in this deck.

JJ-JKidd
04-17-2012, 05:27 AM
Let's wait for confirmation of the card and the actual text, but according to the templating you just provided, this land is basically an inferior Darksteel Citadel in this deck.

Nah even if its confirmed, it isnt a "rainbow land" and UB Ad Naus needs blue basics for cantrips setting-up the eventual combo turn. Idk :confused:

lordofthepit
04-17-2012, 06:08 AM
Nah even if its confirmed, it isnt a "rainbow land" and UB Ad Naus needs blue basics for cantrips setting-up the eventual combo turn. Idk :confused:

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you suggested that this would get played in TES or ANT (since you brought it up in this thread). Obviously a misinterpretation on my part.

Machahiko
04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
I have a slightly updated list that will be released sometime after this weekend.

Any drastic changes or did these changes get axed due to new cards spoiled and should we expect big drastic changes to the deck? Not sure if I'm the only one who's been waiting for the changes, but this waiting is becoming unbearable. D:

Bryant Cook
04-17-2012, 08:39 AM
An update.

This past weekend I played TES at the NELC to a measly 4-3 finish. The worst I've done in a long time, but it doesn't really tell the story of what actually happened. I was X-1 when I gave away game one against Burn, I was mid-combo, chaining Rituals, when I announce Duress, Duress, leaving me with three mana like an idiot with Tendrils in hand. Because of this I lost game one, smashed game two, then game three, kept a decent opener that needed to draw a non-land mana source to win the game turn one (with Nauseam in hand), instead I drew Ill-Gotten Gains (I boarded the second Nauseam out), then drew Infernal, Infernal, over my next two turns. While my opponent opened with double Goblin Guide, Lavaspike, Pillar, Fireblast, and Mountains. Disappointing. Lost my win-and-in to myself.

Next round was paired against BW disruption and got messed up. Bad match-up.

The changes I made I was very happy with were:

Maindeck:
-1 Orim's Chant
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard:
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Wipeaway
+2 Deathmark

The Deathmarks were huge for my round three against Eric Fry with 12 maindeck Hate Bears running Death & Taxes.

Final Fortune
04-17-2012, 09:24 AM
Yeah, I think having the most mana efficient answers to hate bears vs Maverick is far more important than having a more costly answer that side steps Chalice of the Void fwiw, you've always got Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree at least as an out. Think it was really only a matter of time until Wipe Away/Echoing Truth got the axe.

Bryant Cook
04-17-2012, 09:34 AM
Yeah, I think having the most mana efficient answers to hate bears vs Maverick is far more important than having a more costly answer that side steps Chalice of the Void fwiw, you've always got Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree at least as an out. Think it was really only a matter of time until Wipe Away/Echoing Truth got the axe.

My truths are never leaving. Chalice of the Void is still something that sees play in 'Cuse/Vestal. But the Deathmarks are better at the moment than Wipaway. The Inquisition was moved main deck to make room for a second Deathmark, I don't actually expect the main deck Inquisition to have an affect in the Maverick match-up. But if it does? Awesome.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-17-2012, 09:48 AM
Bryant, you're boarding in the Deathmarks, right?

Matt
04-17-2012, 09:52 AM
I'm assuming both Deathmarks come in and Infest stays as a fetchable answer? I like it. I almost want the second Deathmark to be Chain of Vapor... Just because it can hit Thorn and Pillar. Also, if a cheaper casting cost is our motivator, Chain obviously allows for EOT bounce, which frees up a mana. Though, I'm sure your change had more considerations than just CC. Either way, good riddance Wipeaway!

Thanks for the update,
Matthew

kiwi
04-17-2012, 11:08 AM
1 Thoughtseize Could be better than 1 inqusition of kozilek in main deck

Awaclus
04-17-2012, 11:48 AM
1 Thoughtseize Could be better than 1 inqusition of kozilek in main deck
Could be, but is not. Here are all the relevant situations you are facing when you have an Inquisition or a Thoughtseize on top of my head:

1. If your only protection spell is an IoK or a T-16, and
a) Your opponent doesn't have any disruption: IoK is better
b) Your opponent has one or more FoWs: T-16 is better
c) Your opponent has a single FoW and one or more other counterspells that aren't FoW: IoK is better
d) Your opponent has disruption, but none of which is FoW: IoK is better

2. If you have an IoK or a T-16 and another protection spell, and
a) Your opponent doesn't have any disruption: IoK is better
b) Your opponent has one FoW: IoK is better
c) Your opponent has two or more FoWs: T-16 is better
d) Your opponent has a single FoW and one or more other counterspells that aren't FoW: IoK is better
e) Your opponent has two FoWs and one or more other counterspells that aren't FoW: IoK is better
f) Your opponent has disruption, but none of which is FoW: IoK is better

1b might be slightly more common than some of the situations in which IoK is better, but that's not enough to make T-16 the right choice.

thefringthing
04-17-2012, 02:38 PM
I'll try out these changes.

It seems strange to me to be tweaking the list in response to Burn, Deadguy, and Death & Taxes, though. I would have expected any changes to be attempts to improve the matchups against the current trio of top-tier decks.

Matt
04-17-2012, 03:19 PM
What do you guys side against burn? I was thinking +2 Echoing Truth and +4 IoK for -3 Orim's Chant, -2 Silence, and -1 Ponder. This seems correct against the average burn deck packing Pyrostatic Pillar. But, this formation would lose to Mindbreak Trap, which is popular in the U/R versions. So, what do you guys generally side? And, what approach do you take against the U/R version?

Much appreciated,
Matthew

Pelikanudo
04-17-2012, 04:37 PM
@Bryant:
Regarding that result, to be honest, I don't think they're argument for changing the main, I mean
You play a tournament, loose because of mistakes, and change the deck. Mistake or give more arguments.

@Rest:
I again must agree with playing the 2nd A.N. instead of other card, althoutgh I wanted to play anyother card, the 2nd A.N is the best (I really wanted Other card becuase of loosing to myself...). Just as I lost once to 20 because of A.N, I simply do not expect to find that statistic until other few years, so that there is a good reason to play finally the second A.N.

I mean, play TES forever, loose to yourself revealing 20, and hate that deck, and inmediatly next, think, "well, this won't happen anymore in a few time if statistics is a branch of study...", and you'll be happy again.

The change I've been happy with is the Other card instead Wipeaway, the 3rd E.truth.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-17-2012, 05:22 PM
Probably a variance issue, but lately I've really wanted main deck Empty the Warrens against RUG Tempo.

Yeah, I know the second Ad Nauseam is better in all other match ups, but RUG is pissing me off.

I win the die roll. He mulls to five.
I turn one Ad Nauseam. He Forces.
He draws for his turn and passes.
I turn two Ad Nauseam. He Forces.

Jajajajajajajaja.

Bryant Cook
04-17-2012, 05:47 PM
@Bryant:
Regarding that result, to be honest, I don't think they're argument for changing the main, I mean
You play a tournament, loose because of mistakes, and change the deck. Mistake or give more arguments.

@Rest:
I again must agree with playing the 2nd A.N. instead of other card, althoutgh I wanted to play anyother card, the 2nd A.N is the best (I really wanted Other card becuase of loosing to myself...). Just as I lost once to 20 because of A.N, I simply do not expect to find that statistic until other few years, so that there is a good reason to play finally the second A.N.

I mean, play TES forever, loose to yourself revealing 20, and hate that deck, and inmediatly next, think, "well, this won't happen anymore in a few time if statistics is a branch of study...", and you'll be happy again.

The change I've been happy with is the Other card instead Wipeaway, the 3rd E.truth.

I made the changes before the event.

thefringthing
04-17-2012, 09:17 PM
That makes a little more sense, then. Going to edit the first post accordingly?

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-17-2012, 09:49 PM
Just as I lost once to 20 because of A.N...

From Monday at my LGS, it's game three and I'm on the play. I fire off an Inquisition of Kozilek and nab Chalice of the Void. On turn two, I ritual into Ad Nauseam.

The flop reveals:

Ad Nauseam, 15.

Tendrils of Agony, 11.

Guess what?

I won.

@newchanges: They seem legit to me. I board out chant effects more than I do any card. So even though it may be by coincidence, the main deck IoK seems fine. Going back to four chants works, too. I feel like Inquisition (or more realistically the "reveal hand" clause) pulls more weight in the current meta. I like information.

Whippoorwill
04-18-2012, 09:15 AM
T.E.S. took 2nd at at a 47 player event losing to Punishing Maverick in the finals:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23615-ELL-2012-Abril-Barakaldo-47-Players-(Chronicle-Top-8-decks-amp-videos)

Also sounds like the guy playing it will be interviewed this week:

(Google translated)

Some players noticed the trend and chose to play metagame Storm Combo. This allowed you could see different decks of this type. It is no coincidence that two of the three tournaments have played the final Eneko Mendibe with TES (whom we will hear this week in Infinite Mana).

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
04-18-2012, 12:16 PM
T.E.S. took 2nd at at a 47 player event losing to Punishing Maverick in the finals:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23615-ELL-2012-Abril-Barakaldo-47-Players-(Chronicle-Top-8-decks-amp-videos)

Also sounds like the guy playing it will be interviewed this week:

(Google translated)

Looks like his Punishing Maverick opponent was out to get him -- lots of hate.

Here's the board TES ran:

15 Sideboard
4 Inquisition Of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Silent Departure
1 Grapeshot
1 Virtue's Ruin

Here's the board Punishing Maverick ran:

15 Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Bojuka Bog

Also the usual main deck Gaddock Teeg and no Aven Mindcensor.

Machahiko
04-18-2012, 12:33 PM
In the chronicle it says (translated by google translate!):


The final Eneko and made ​​a pact at 20:00 Alain who made ​​the journey back to Guipúzcoa.