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Silverflame
03-17-2015, 04:25 PM
How do people feel about cavern of souls? im not sure about it altough i played it in red mud with godo and magus back in the day..

It is subpar on games without blue, but everytime I try switching it for lands that works on most matches (buried ruins, wastelands, citadel, crystal vein, etc), I end up being severely punished by esper, BUG and miracles, so I have to run a minimum of 2. that's why I'm eager to try a build more planeswalker's oriented, those 2 slots could be used to reduce inconsistency instead.

porcupinetreeman
03-18-2015, 09:45 AM
It is subpar on games without blue, but everytime I try switching it for lands that works on most matches (buried ruins, wastelands, citadel, crystal vein, etc), I end up being severely punished by esper, BUG and miracles, so I have to run a minimum of 2. that's why I'm eager to try a build more planeswalker's oriented, those 2 slots could be used to reduce inconsistency instead.

I've been running 4 cavern and been very happy with it. I can't think of a reason to run wasteland anymore. Cavern helps greatly vs Grixis Control, Miracles, and Shardless. Sometimes if you land that uncounterable Lodestone, you just win.

Alex Holland
03-18-2015, 09:55 AM
Did you notice tsabos web in his sideboard? Thats a bom against Death and taxes!

I wonder.. 3 ugin and 3 karn main, dropping metalworker for 4 monolith 4 thran dynamo hmmmm :laugh:

(nameless one)
03-18-2015, 10:15 AM
Did you notice tsabos web in his sideboard? Thats a bom against Death and taxes!

I wonder.. 3 ugin and 3 karn main, dropping metalworker for 4 monolith 4 thran dynamo hmmmm :laugh:

And Key.

I wonder if you can just ignore the attack phase and abuse Ensnaring Bridge. Just use the planeswalkers to win.

Silverflame
03-18-2015, 02:16 PM
I've been running 4 cavern and been very happy with it. I can't think of a reason to run wasteland anymore. Cavern helps greatly vs Grixis Control, Miracles, and Shardless. Sometimes if you land that uncounterable Lodestone, you just win.

no doubt cavern IS good, but what I meant is that it's not good on every match on the colorless build.

edit: to further elaborate, being a nonbasic, you open yourself up to PoP and wasteland in a match where the opponent is not using blue, for no added value, making it strictly worse than just using a basic island. If you just had an island instead, your opponent would think twice and maybe play around daze while you laugh to yourself internally. (Not that I advocate using islands on colorless)

Alex Holland
03-18-2015, 05:16 PM
And Key.

I wonder if you can just ignore the attack phase and abuse Ensnaring Bridge. Just use the planeswalkers to win.

Something like this? With 10 colorless non-artifact cards i like to patent the name REAL-colorless mud . Cant test right now sadly :frown:

WINS:
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

NEED MANA:
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Expedition Map

NEED RIGHT CARDS:
1 Staff of Nin
2 Scroll Rack

NO COUNTER PLS:
4 Trinisphere

SURVIVE TILL WIPE:
4 Tangle Wire
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 All Is Dust

LANDS:
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel

Silverflame
03-18-2015, 05:35 PM
Something like this? With 10 colorless non-artifact cards i like to patent the name REAL-colorless mud . Cant test right now sadly :frown:

WINS:
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

NEED MANA:
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Expedition Map

NEED RIGHT CARDS:
1 Staff of Nin
2 Scroll Rack

NO COUNTER PLS:
4 Trinisphere

SURVIVE TILL WIPE:
4 Tangle Wire
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 All Is Dust

LANDS:
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel

maybe cloister instead of staff? it goes well with bridge.

Alex Holland
03-18-2015, 06:08 PM
maybe cloister instead of staff? it goes well with bridge.

Thats a real neat mean combo sir, but isnt just dropping tangle wire enough against fast decks like goblins? I think with 4 turns you should be able to wipe them with all is dust or ugin.

Jakobian
03-19-2015, 12:39 AM
I've been running 4 cavern and been very happy with it. I can't think of a reason to run wasteland anymore. Cavern helps greatly vs Grixis Control, Miracles, and Shardless. Sometimes if you land that uncounterable Lodestone, you just win.

Wasteland has a tremendous synergy with all of the lock pieces (trinisphere, chalice of the void at x=1, lodestone golem). It can also deal with the occasional problematic lands such as maze of ith.

In my experience, the matchup against grixis, miracles, and shardless is already good. Shardless only plays 4 FoW for their counterspells for the whole deck (even post-board they usually don't have more countermagic).

I have seen a lot of lists running cavern of souls, but cutting 4 wastelands for 4 caverns seems like the incorrect lands to cut. If anything I would run a manabase like so:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls

If you're having problems with counterspells, reconsider the order you're casting your spells. If I think my opponent has a Force of Will (or other counterspell for that matter), I always cast the second most important spell first. It should still be something that they will want to counter, but not the spell you really want to resolve. Baiting counterspells is an art, and it's a bit tricky. A lot of people playing counterspells will counter things that they don't actually have to, and you can play that to your advantage very easily.

For example: against miracles I feel like a chalice of the void at x=1 is way more important than a trinisphere. So I play trinisphere first because if it sticks it limits their options, and further spells will be more likely to land. If it doesn't stick, they've used a force of will and further spells are likely to land (for the next turn or 2).

metroidcomposite
03-19-2015, 01:36 AM
im at work but i think its like this:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 grim monolith
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Domination

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darksteel Citadel

SB:

3 Ratchet Bomb
2 tsabos web
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
4 faerie macabre
3 tormods crypt

there appear to be 61 cards in that list?


Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.

So...I was analyzing the differences between these two lists, and I think the reason he's running 3 Trinisphere is the land. Like you say, Trinisphere is great counter protection, but he's running four Cavern of Souls.

Wohluigi
03-19-2015, 03:24 AM
Greetings artificers, I am the wizard who top 8'd the Premier IQ in DC back in January. Been iterating on the deck, be interested in people's thoughts.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere

2 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Collossus

1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Nin
1 Myr Battlesphere

3 Coercive Portal
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

-----sb-----

3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant

The portals obviously set me apart from most other lists, I feel like a cheaper staff of nin is exactly what this deck is in the market for (staff is still sick). board it out against unfair decks, but I think it's fantastic against an opponent who's trying to beat you with removal and wastelands. I cut more expensive cards for them, portal feels like the most powerful effect you can have for the least amount of mana (besides lodestone obv) these lists with 4 ugin + platinum emperion seem like they are asking to be stuck with uncastable cards in their hand. Ugin and Portal are both among the worst cards in your deck vs. combo opponents, and assuming both are getting boarded out I'd much rather have portals game one. and while i recognize the board wiping effect is kind of irreplaceable (which is why I really like the first Ugin) in a world of Wasteland + Abrupt Decay the Portals enable you get to the point of the game where you can actually cast 6+ mana things. How many times have you played Grim monolith turn 1 and been wastelanded? if you can untap and play portal in those situations, your opponent is usually in a pretty bad spot.

Another card I feel particularly strongly about that nobody else seems to be playing - Myr Battlesphere. Not only is this guy a house to topdeck, the interaction with Forgemaster is out of control. So often do I find myself activating forgemaster for Battlesphere to fend off my opponent's army, then next turn forging away three homies to get the artifact I really need to win. The turn after that, even if you've drawn no artifacts, you still have enough to forge again without getting rid of the original forge target. It kills your opponent in two turns uninterrupted, beats any number of lilianas, and casting it turn 3 with cloudpost/vesuva/glimmerpost hands is ridiculous. I honestly couldn't imagine playing the deck without it, it feels like an essential part of the game plan. I don't even think it's crazy to play two.

Alex Holland
03-19-2015, 09:32 AM
Greetings artificers, I am the wizard who top 8'd the Premier IQ in DC back in January. Been iterating on the deck, be interested in people's thoughts.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere

2 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Collossus

1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Nin
1 Myr Battlesphere

3 Coercive Portal
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

-----sb-----

3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant

The portals obviously set me apart from most other lists, I feel like a cheaper staff of nin is exactly what this deck is in the market for (staff is still sick). board it out against unfair decks, but I think it's fantastic against an opponent who's trying to beat you with removal and wastelands. I cut more expensive cards for them, portal feels like the most powerful effect you can have for the least amount of mana (besides lodestone obv) these lists with 4 ugin + platinum emperion seem like they are asking to be stuck with uncastable cards in their hand. Ugin and Portal are both among the worst cards in your deck vs. combo opponents, and assuming both are getting boarded out I'd much rather have portals game one. and while i recognize the board wiping effect is kind of irreplaceable (which is why I really like the first Ugin) in a world of Wasteland + Abrupt Decay the Portals enable you get to the point of the game where you can actually cast 6+ mana things. How many times have you played Grim monolith turn 1 and been wastelanded? if you can untap and play portal in those situations, your opponent is usually in a pretty bad spot.

Another card I feel particularly strongly about that nobody else seems to be playing - Myr Battlesphere. Not only is this guy a house to topdeck, the interaction with Forgemaster is out of control. So often do I find myself activating forgemaster for Battlesphere to fend off my opponent's army, then next turn forging away three homies to get the artifact I really need to win. The turn after that, even if you've drawn no artifacts, you still have enough to forge again without getting rid of the original forge target. It kills your opponent in two turns uninterrupted, beats any number of lilianas, and casting it turn 3 with cloudpost/vesuva/glimmerpost hands is ridiculous. I honestly couldn't imagine playing the deck without it, it feels like an essential part of the game plan. I don't even think it's crazy to play two.

Myr battlesphere is old fashioned MUD. Like 2010. (EDIT: 2011 more or less http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=995&d=209118&f=LE think this was MUD big start with forgemaster) Im not saying its bad. But for 7 mana nowadays you expect a lot more than some tokens and a ok beater. More then 1 forgemaster activation? Very rarely needed. Get blightsteel equip greaves, win. 7 mana is short 1 for a ugin wich is a pure win by itself.

If you like sacking things i suggest get more of those wurmcoils, MUCH better. 6 mana. (2x) deathtouch, recurring and lifegain. Wow.

Wohluigi
03-19-2015, 01:36 PM
Myr battlesphere is old fashioned MUD. Like 2010. (EDIT: 2011 more or less http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=995&d=209118&f=LE think this was MUD big start with forgemaster) Im not saying its bad. But for 7 mana nowadays you expect a lot more than some tokens and a ok beater. More then 1 forgemaster activation? Very rarely needed. Get blightsteel equip greaves, win. 7 mana is short 1 for a ugin wich is a pure win by itself.

If you like sacking things i suggest get more of those wurmcoils, MUCH better. 6 mana. (2x) deathtouch, recurring and lifegain. Wow.

Battlesphere is the only threat that guarantees value if your opponent has an immediate answer. If you're trying to use wurmcoil to stabilize and they just exile it before you get a chance block, you're in a bad spot (if not dead that turn). If you search for battlesphere defensively your opponent has a tough choice on how to use council's judgement/plow - exile your forgemaster and die to Battlesphere or exile your battlesphere and leave you with an activation next turn. You even get to chump block 1 or 2 creatures if you need to. I'd say I make this line when I have forgemaster somewhere between 30-40% of the time, it is almost a surefire way to beat someone who is trying to kill you with ground creatures. Battlesphere is irreplaceable IMO.

(nameless one)
03-19-2015, 02:38 PM
Doesn't some Workshop decks run Battlesphere in Vintage? Or do they do that just because of Tangle Wire?

Alex Holland
03-19-2015, 03:16 PM
Battlesphere is the only threat that guarantees value if your opponent has an immediate answer. If you're trying to use wurmcoil to stabilize and they just exile it before you get a chance block, you're in a bad spot (if not dead that turn). If you search for battlesphere defensively your opponent has a tough choice on how to use council's judgement/plow - exile your forgemaster and die to Battlesphere or exile your battlesphere and leave you with an activation next turn. You even get to chump block 1 or 2 creatures if you need to. I'd say I make this line when I have forgemaster somewhere between 30-40% of the time, it is almost a surefire way to beat someone who is trying to kill you with ground creatures. Battlesphere is irreplaceable IMO.

Who- would chose to exile battlesphere instead of forgemaster? battlesphere is just a creature. A pottentialy 8/7 creature. Could kill someone, or just sit there. It isnt a greaved out blightsteel or a hasty hellkite or a invinceble emperion.

I think there is a reason battlesphere is dropped from most performing mud lists.

Of course if you like it you can build around it. Maybe with eldrazi monument? But thats entering casual fun..

Troll_ov_Grimness
03-19-2015, 04:00 PM
I'm sorry for grasping at straws with this deck, what I actually played the other night . I lost game 1 to a janky goblins deck. Game two I wrecked house because I played against Burn and drew my Wurmcoil as well as my Welder, even after my opponent tried to burn away the Wurmcoil I still managed to get it into play because I weldered it back. I came very close to winning against Cloudpost but my opponent drew all of his hate including Pithing Needle and totally shut me down and couldn't draw into any more relevant cards against them. He managed to find tons of lands for some reason even though I wasted him twice. I drew my Petrified Field that game and Wasted twice! Which felt very good. The burn player almost killed me with 2 Price of Progress and a Fireblast but I still won. He never drew another but I protected myself a bit late by Wasting my own lands and using Petrified field and the sac effect from the City of Traitors to get rid of more lands off the field.

My reasoning basically for not playing Cloudposts… #1, the Forgemaster combo very rarely works without the artifact lands having been drawn. That 1 extra card or 2 to sacrifice makes all the difference because you want to protect yourself against Swords to Plowshares. I don't want to play draw go with no counters, no removal, no discard, until I get a Thran Dynamo into play with enough lands after getting Wasted to cast a big planes walker. Delver decks are just too fast and I need to win against them . Lodestone Golem is a useless card without Wasteland in the deck, and I don't think that the Cavern of Souls is justified out of the deck either. I've won games with Welder strategy in the past simply because I was able to keep away one Stoneforge activation . So I figure if I am going to play artifact lands, and cavern, then I am justified playing Welder. Cavern is bad with planes walkers because I can't actually name those, so the frequency of getting them Force'd will be way higher. I haven't play tested it much yet but for more mana sources, I was going to play Sandstone Needle, which is the best option I think as a Sol land besides City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb, which again makes playing Welder more sensical. I've tested Daretti and I don't like it because my opponent can just attack into it. He's not Legacy playable that is my verdict .

Biggest mistake of building the deck is playing more mana rocks , things that draw cards, and things you can't cast.

Goblin Welder does everything. So play it. the Cloudpost lands are too slow for this deck, play it combo and cut them.

We're playing Cloudposts to cast 5 and 6 drops. Something seems dreadfully wrong with this. I kind of want to just shelve the deck until they make another land cycle or some land that can boost and is playable besides Scorched Ruins or Sandstone Needle.

My deck, going to play it next week . . . Could use some better Weldering suggestions that are for 6 mana or less. Triskelion gives me a board wipe-like effect . I finally have my Batterskull and I am going to play it because I want an answer to.. Batterskull. and I wanted a threat besides Lodestone Golem that is a better curve with the deck. I can play the Godo uncounterable and get an extra combat phase. This is very useful against Batterskull as well. I don't care to play extra equipment I kind of just want the extra combat round. I'm hoping that I don't draw the Batterskull and can cast Godo uncounterable and get it into play that way, if not I can still Welder it if I cast it and it gets countered because I had Cavern to cast something else uncounterable (see?). Triskelion might look weird but it will knock out two Delvers that are attacking for 6 every turn that you can't block because they have flying. It will also kill planes walkers. Godo is good attacking twice because of Blightsteel. If he's in play he's going to bring his friend Batterskull. I'm trying it anyway.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tower of the Magistrate (was the Petrified Field)

4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord (was a Steel Hellkite now moved to sideboard..)
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Staff Of Domination
2 Lighting Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Batterskull (was a Sundering Titan)
4 Grim Monolith

Wohluigi
03-19-2015, 04:39 PM
Who- would chose to exile battlesphere instead of forgemaster? battlesphere is just a creature. A pottentialy 8/7 creature. Could kill someone, or just sit there. It isnt a greaved out blightsteel or a hasty hellkite or a invinceble emperion.

I think there is a reason battlesphere is dropped from most performing mud lists.

Of course if you like it you can build around it. Maybe with eldrazi monument? But thats entering casual fun..

Sure if you have greaves already out hellkite or blightsteel are usually your best bet, but it's not like you have greaves every game. In my experience, Myr Battlesphere rarely "just sits there". If you can afford to attack with the Battlesphere out it kills them in two turns, and if you can't it's not likely your opponent can attack favorably past your 4/7 and 1/1's, giving you enough time to set up a kill. None of the other threats do anything for you if your opponent can just remove them right away. Battlesphere has more resilience to Plow, Liliana, and Jace more than any other threat in the deck.

kohulk
03-20-2015, 01:58 AM
Battlesphere has more resilience to Plow, Liliana, and Jace more than any other threat in the deck.

My problem with this argument is that if you get bounced by Jace, sac'ed by Lili or destroyed by Council's Judgment then you obviously misplayed Kuldotha 's ability. The only time your fatty will get Plowed is if they have just topdecked it. Otherwise they will have used it on Kuldotha instead. From my expierience only once my Blightsteel got plowed after Kuldotha activation.
So I find it difficult to choose Battlesphere when we have so many artifacts to choose from. Even Batterskull would be better 9/10 times.

Airwave
03-20-2015, 06:58 AM
And Key.

I wonder if you can just ignore the attack phase and abuse Ensnaring Bridge. Just use the planeswalkers to win.

This is exactly what I'm doing. I hardly ever attack. When I do, it's with a Steel Hellkite being pumped to a million to end the game.

When you resolve metalworker+staff or Ugin/Karn the opponent often surrenders, in my experience.

(See my list at p.122)

Airwave
03-20-2015, 07:03 AM
Greetings artificers, I am the wizard who top 8'd the Premier IQ in DC back in January. Been iterating on the deck, be interested in people's thoughts.

DECK

The portals obviously set me apart from most other lists, I feel like a cheaper staff of nin is exactly what this deck is in the market for (staff is still sick). board it out against unfair decks, but I think it's fantastic against an opponent who's trying to beat you with removal and wastelands. I cut more expensive cards for them, portal feels like the most powerful effect you can have for the least amount of mana (besides lodestone obv) these lists with 4 ugin + platinum emperion seem like they are asking to be stuck with uncastable cards in their hand. Ugin and Portal are both among the worst cards in your deck vs. combo opponents, and assuming both are getting boarded out I'd much rather have portals game one. and while i recognize the board wiping effect is kind of irreplaceable (which is why I really like the first Ugin) in a world of Wasteland + Abrupt Decay the Portals enable you get to the point of the game where you can actually cast 6+ mana things. How many times have you played Grim monolith turn 1 and been wastelanded? if you can untap and play portal in those situations, your opponent is usually in a pretty bad spot.

Another card I feel particularly strongly about that nobody else seems to be playing - Myr Battlesphere. Not only is this guy a house to topdeck, the interaction with Forgemaster is out of control. So often do I find myself activating forgemaster for Battlesphere to fend off my opponent's army, then next turn forging away three homies to get the artifact I really need to win. The turn after that, even if you've drawn no artifacts, you still have enough to forge again without getting rid of the original forge target. It kills your opponent in two turns uninterrupted, beats any number of lilianas, and casting it turn 3 with cloudpost/vesuva/glimmerpost hands is ridiculous. I honestly couldn't imagine playing the deck without it, it feels like an essential part of the game plan. I don't even think it's crazy to play two.

Congratz on your top 8!

I completely agree with you on Coercive Portal (although I play cloister, it's basically the same strategy).

I wonder though, why no Wastelands? Didn't you miss them? I understand the extra artifacts (citadel) are nice for both forgemaster/metalworker but still... it's hard to put early pressure on the game without Wasteland I would think?

GhostEmpire
03-20-2015, 07:32 PM
Congratz on your top 8!

I completely agree with you on Coercive Portal (although I play cloister, it's basically the same strategy).

I wonder though, why no Wastelands? Didn't you miss them? I understand the extra artifacts (citadel) are nice for both forgemaster/metalworker but still... it's hard to put early pressure on the game without Wasteland I would think?
I have been nearly blown out of games from my opponent hitting my Cloister.
Not very fun.

I've had very little luck or enjoyment with Wasteland in my deck, my meta is FULL of control, so I play 2 more Caverns in place of them pretty much.

Alex Holland
03-21-2015, 11:24 AM
This is exactly what I'm doing. I hardly ever attack. When I do, it's with a Steel Hellkite being pumped to a million to end the game.

When you resolve metalworker+staff or Ugin/Karn the opponent often surrenders, in my experience.

(See my list at p.122)

I tried out your list online and i ran into some things with it. Surprisingly a lot of players let cloister trough, wich is obviously very stupid because it gives you free draws.
The hellkites felt out of place. If you run only a few creatures changes they get removed are rising. Also ensnaring bridge isnt something i would play maindeck in legacy. Its really good against griselbrand emrakul and other unfair creatures but these are a minority in a legacy field. Creature based decks can be had just by dropping a wurmcoil. Overall i played some grinding games with it--- in wich i started to wonder if it wouldnt be easier just to drop a forgemaster into blightsteel and get the thing over with... I do however picked up some cloisters for my main list to try in there.

How about a deck filled withboardwipes?- ugin, oblivion stone, all is dust, ratchet bomb etc and pure mana next to it?

Troll_ov_Grimness
03-22-2015, 05:58 PM
I tried out your list online and i ran into some things with it. Surprisingly a lot of players let cloister trough, wich is obviously very stupid because it gives you free draws.
The hellkites felt out of place. If you run only a few creatures changes they get removed are rising. Also ensnaring bridge isnt something i would play maindeck in legacy. Its really good against griselbrand emrakul and other unfair creatures but these are a minority in a legacy field. Creature based decks can be had just by dropping a wurmcoil. Overall i played some grinding games with it--- in wich i started to wonder if it wouldnt be easier just to drop a forgemaster into blightsteel and get the thing over with... I do however picked up some cloisters for my main list to try in there.

How about a deck filled withboardwipes?- ugin, oblivion stone, all is dust, ratchet bomb etc and pure mana next to it?

Alex,

I considered playing Rocket Launcher because it has an end of turn sacrifice effect, and then you can Welder it back with only one activation. There's no Rocket Launcher online but Goblin Cannon is a functional reprint. It seems to me anyway like a solid way to synergize with Welder and play a lower curve removal spell than Spine of Ish Sah . the Brittle Effigy doesn't synnergize with Welder. In fact.. actually the Goblin Cannon is more Welder-able the Rocket Launcher is actually worse.

What do you think?

There's also Triskelion but having a 6 drop instead of a 4 or 5 drop is too high of a curve for the deck I think.

I'm currently trying Psychosis Crawler . I wanted a better threat on the battlefield against Delver and Batterskull

I'm still going to be trying the list I had made with Batterskull this week. I'm playtesting the Psychosis Crawler online . So far he's often a 5/5 or 6/6 , so I guess he's just additional redundant copies of Wurmcoil Engine . Though I like that the mana curve is 1 lower, so two Sols and a land instead of 3 to play it. I wish there was another better creature for 4 but there isn't really besides Su-Chi , I suppose this has good synergy with Welder. I guess more worthwile in a Welder build than Psychosis Crawler.

I might do a playset of Su-Chi, with the playset of Welder (best buddies), my opponents playing in my local meta will counter it , pretty sure, and then you can use him as beast welder fodder, might be the best thing to play in a post-less deck, and cutting out the Wastelands and playing Desert ( YES , Desert ) because i hate delver that much.

I'll almost absolutely probably stick with the Welder, artifact lands, wasteland, cavern build, with the lodestone in there, even though i really detest that card .

Airwave
03-23-2015, 05:44 AM
I tried out your list online and i ran into some things with it. Surprisingly a lot of players let cloister trough, wich is obviously very stupid because it gives you free draws.
The hellkites felt out of place. If you run only a few creatures changes they get removed are rising. Also ensnaring bridge isnt something i would play maindeck in legacy. Its really good against griselbrand emrakul and other unfair creatures but these are a minority in a legacy field. Creature based decks can be had just by dropping a wurmcoil. Overall i played some grinding games with it--- in wich i started to wonder if it wouldnt be easier just to drop a forgemaster into blightsteel and get the thing over with... I do however picked up some cloisters for my main list to try in there.

How about a deck filled withboardwipes?- ugin, oblivion stone, all is dust, ratchet bomb etc and pure mana next to it?

Bottled Cloister is very underestimated, most of the time players have to read what it does anyway and are then surprised when I draw my extra card next upkeep and start reading it again.

Hellkite is a finisher. Metalworker/Staff locks locks the game immediately. Moreover Steel Hellkite can get past Ensnaring Bridge with Cloister. 5 cards in hand seem a lot but with Cloister this is pretty easy actually.

Matches are grindy, absolutely. But I think the overall win percentage is higher since you get screwed a lot less. This version doesn't need to mulligan that often too.

Airwave
03-23-2015, 05:46 AM
I have been nearly blown out of games from my opponent hitting my Cloister.
Not very fun.

I've had very little luck or enjoyment with Wasteland in my deck, my meta is FULL of control, so I play 2 more Caverns in place of them pretty much.

I see. Coercive is probably the better play then. I guess it's the better play anyway without bridge actually.

Cavern rocks indeed in a meta with lots of control.

Alex Holland
03-23-2015, 06:13 AM
Alex,

I considered playing Rocket Launcher because it has an end of turn sacrifice effect, and then you can Welder it back with only one activation. There's no Rocket Launcher online but Goblin Cannon is a functional reprint.

Rocket launcher is interesting. But is it better then a ratchet bomb? ANd for those 4 mana you could have dropped a oblivion stone. It does seem fun against certain decks; i imagine a tribal deck doesnt enjoy picking of little elfs or goblins with a ironically goblin cannon. :tongue:

Im kind of afraid to play cloister. So many decks play artifact removal, i would remove them game 2! However discard is on the rise again in legacy. Still... coercive portal.

mgoldman
03-24-2015, 09:33 AM
So I’m looking for some constructive suggestions for a “Painted MUD” deck I’m working on. I don’t need to hear how it’s a bad idea, just stick with regular MUD etc. I know it’s not optimal but I’d like to give it a try so please keep negative comments like that to yourself. I played it last week and I won once from the milling angle. Ended up 3-1 on the night, losing to double price of progress from burn with platinum emperion on it's way next turn. Anyways, it seems fun so I’m going to try it out for a few weeks and see what happens. I like the cute interaction with Ugin where you can Armageddon too.

Here’s the list I’m going to run this week:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Painter's Servant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Grim Monolith
3 Grindstone
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I know putting the Chalices in the sideboard is a huge shift from the way the deck plays normally.

P.S. how do you tag cards in this forum? Do you have to manually add all the links?

Alex Holland
03-24-2015, 06:11 PM
So I’m looking for some constructive suggestions for a “Painted MUD” deck I’m working on. I don’t need to hear how it’s a bad idea, just stick with regular MUD etc. I know it’s not optimal but I’d like to give it a try so please keep negative comments like that to yourself. I played it last week and I won once from the milling angle. Ended up 3-1 on the night, losing to double price of progress from burn with platinum emperion on it's way next turn. Anyways, it seems fun so I’m going to try it out for a few weeks and see what happens. I like the cute interaction with Ugin where you can Armageddon too.

Here’s the list I’m going to run this week:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Painter's Servant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Grim Monolith
3 Grindstone
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I know putting the Chalices in the sideboard is a huge shift from the way the deck plays normally.

P.S. how do you tag cards in this forum? Do you have to manually add all the links?

Since you are looking for a combo i would suggest some card filtering or drawing. I would go with scroll rack. But thats me. Maybe sensei's top? Or coercive portal? And since chalice is out expedition map may be better then grim monolith!

splashing red is a other option. A gamble is nice.. And imperial rectuiter gets both painter AND worker wich both are combo pieces. You need staff of domination as a alternative win combo/ draw!

Actually i like a deck with different oops i win combos, i think i would start like this:


tutors
4 kuldotha
3 imperial recruiter ( any one got some spare :p )

win 1
4 metalworker
2 staff of domination

win 2
3 painters servant
3 grindstone

win 3
1 blightsteel colossus

win 4
3 ugin, spirit dragon

3 goblin welder (get back lost combo pieces)!
3 coercive portal (find more combo pieces)!

4 wurmcoil engine (welder antics, getting life to make it to combo)

4 trinisphere (defend combo)
2 expedition map (locus mana?)

add mana = ???

mgoldman
03-24-2015, 07:00 PM
Since you are looking for a combo i would suggest some card filtering or drawing. I would go with scroll rack. But thats me. Maybe sensei's top? Or coercive portal? And since chalice is out expedition map may be better then grim monolith!

splashing red is a other option. A gamble is nice.. And imperial rectuiter gets both painter AND worker wich both are combo pieces. You need staff of domination as a alternative win combo/ draw!

Actually i like a deck with different oops i win combos, i think i would start like this:


tutors
4 kuldotha
3 imperial recruiter ( any one got some spare :p )

win 1
4 metalworker
2 staff of domination

win 2
3 painters servant
3 grindstone

win 3
1 blightsteel colossus

win 4
3 ugin, spirit dragon

3 goblin welder (get back lost combo pieces)!
3 coercive portal (find more combo pieces)!

4 wurmcoil engine (welder antics, getting life to make it to combo)

4 trinisphere (defend combo)
2 expedition map (locus mana?)

add mana = ???

Definitely ideas worth considering. I have a set of recruiters since I was playing imperial painter before getting on MUD. I generally prefer fetches with top so there's a way to get rid of the cards if they're all junk (same principal with scroll rack I guess). I ordered a few coercive portals the other day so I'll have those to play with soon too. I'll probably stick with colourless for now but the portals and possibly a map or 2 may end up in the deck.

Fry
03-25-2015, 12:07 AM
I played around with Painter Stone in my MUD deck a month or so back and had a fair amount of fun with it. I played 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Grindstone. I played it with Forgemaster and Welder. I added in 3 Daretti. Not needing the Grindstone in play after the activation begins is pretty awesome, weld away the Stone for Servant or Forgemaster for Servant etc. It was a little janky, but no one expects MUD to mill people. I have since taken the 2 cards out, Goblin Welders and the Lodestone Golems (Yes the Golems were taken out of the main, actually out of the 75!).

I played in all 3 scheduled Legacy side events at GP Cleveland, and let me tell you that Turn 2 Ugin against Dredge is fun. I also stole a turn from my Storm opponent and killed them with their own Ad Nauseam.
Here's the list I played:
Main:
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixer
1x Trading Post
3x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

Side:
3x Whipflare
1x Batterskull
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Platinum Emperion
3x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Trinisphere

I never sided in the third Spellskite, so I'm thinking of changing it into a Silent Arbiter, a Ward of Bones, or a second Mindslaver.

L10
03-25-2015, 02:30 AM
Well, I think I have told you this before Fry, but if there is one thing that I have always loved about your list, it is full of shiny toys, and somehow works. I actually cut Welder completely from my Welder list for Daretti too. However, with only 6 red mana sources, how do you plan to cast Daretti? Here is a good chart from Channel Fireball (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/)
http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Screen-Shot-2013-12-31-at-5.18.08-PM.png
I think at minimum, I'd cut one Cavern of Souls for an additional Mountain.

Fry
03-25-2015, 02:18 PM
Well, I think I have told you this before Fry, but if there is one thing that I have always loved about your list, it is full of shiny toys, and somehow works. I actually cut Welder completely from my Welder list for Daretti too. However, with only 6 red mana sources, how do you plan to cast Daretti? Here is a good chart from Channel Fireball (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/)
http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Screen-Shot-2013-12-31-at-5.18.08-PM.png
I think at minimum, I'd cut one Cavern of Souls for an additional Mountain.

Sometimes the Daretti does get stuck in my hand for a couple turns, there are so many things I can do with the deck while I wait for a red source. I've even used Forgemaster just to get a Great Furnace into play, then admittedly I brought back, I think Wurmcoil... :)

Edit: The Caverns are too crucial in my opinion, I need my Constructs to resolve (Metalworker, Forgemaster, and Myr Battlesphere) more than I need a third Mountain.

Jakobian
03-26-2015, 09:19 PM
So I’m looking for some constructive suggestions for a “Painted MUD” deck I’m working on. I don’t need to hear how it’s a bad idea, just stick with regular MUD etc. I know it’s not optimal but I’d like to give it a try so please keep negative comments like that to yourself. I played it last week and I won once from the milling angle. Ended up 3-1 on the night, losing to double price of progress from burn with platinum emperion on it's way next turn. Anyways, it seems fun so I’m going to try it out for a few weeks and see what happens. I like the cute interaction with Ugin where you can Armageddon too.

Here’s the list I’m going to run this week:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Painter's Servant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Grim Monolith
3 Grindstone
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I know putting the Chalices in the sideboard is a huge shift from the way the deck plays normally.

P.S. how do you tag cards in this forum? Do you have to manually add all the links?



I like that the painter's servant/Ugin combo is leaking it's way into legacy from Modern. Some constructive criticism:

1) Chalice of the void on x=1 would protect the shit out of your painter's servants/metalworkers. Just a thought.
2) Not running chalice lets you run enlightened tutor as another tutor for combo pieces, but that does require colored mana. Running white may also open up new avenues like playing open the vaults or something, who knows? I'd dabble with things of that nature a little bit and see if it takes the list in a different direction.
3) Have you considered running some number of zuran orbs in the 75? If you're going to be blowing up all of the things anyway, it may help you out with staying in the game. It also may be really good against burn.
4) Are there any other colorless ways you can abuse painter's servant?
5) Any reason you decided not to include any copies of staff of domination? Free wins are fun with metalworker + staff., and if you're mana flooded it can be a pretty good card drawing engine to help find combo pieces.

Side note: I wonder if Ring of Ma'ruf could fit into some sort of combo MUD list. It's been discussed a little bit before, but given that this list is even more combo-ey, maybe it could fit.


How consistently do you get the painters grindstone combo up? It seems like a pretty easy inclusion in the list, and painter's servant + ugin can also be back-breaking.

mgoldman
03-27-2015, 08:30 AM
I like that the painter's servant/Ugin combo is leaking it's way into legacy from Modern. Some constructive criticism:

1) Chalice of the void on x=1 would protect the shit out of your painter's servants/metalworkers. Just a thought.
2) Not running chalice lets you run enlightened tutor as another tutor for combo pieces, but that does require colored mana. Running white may also open up new avenues like playing open the vaults or something, who knows? I'd dabble with things of that nature a little bit and see if it takes the list in a different direction.
3) Have you considered running some number of zuran orbs in the 75? If you're going to be blowing up all of the things anyway, it may help you out with staying in the game. It also may be really good against burn.
4) Are there any other colorless ways you can abuse painter's servant?
5) Any reason you decided not to include any copies of staff of domination? Free wins are fun with metalworker + staff., and if you're mana flooded it can be a pretty good card drawing engine to help find combo pieces.

Side note: I wonder if Ring of Ma'ruf could fit into some sort of combo MUD list. It's been discussed a little bit before, but given that this list is even more combo-ey, maybe it could fit.


How consistently do you get the painters grindstone combo up? It seems like a pretty easy inclusion in the list, and painter's servant + ugin can also be back-breaking.

I've played it at 2 local legacy nights, 7-1 so far. I've taken the painter/Grindstone cards out for almost every single game 2 & 3. I won one game with it, against an opponent who didn't know what it did and could have forced the painter's servant. I'll try it for another week or 2 but it doesn't seem worth it so far.

1) The problem with running chalice mainboard is that it shuts down grindstone if I don't already have it in play. Plus, what do you take out to include the 4 of them? I'm trying to keep this as close to traditional MUD as possible.
2) I'm not going to mess with trying to put a colour into the deck, especially for cards that can't be cast off a cavern of souls.
3) Hadn't thought about Zuran, I'll check it out. Currently I think there are more important cards in my SB that I couldn't afford taking out.
4) No idea.
5) I had to cut some cards somewhere. My reasoning is that you don't need to a pile of artifacts in your hand to combo with painter + grindstone.

Decks I've played against include:

Burn x2 (same player, my only loss)
D&T
Elves
BUG delver x2 (different players)
RUG Delver
Merfolk (brand new player, sub-optimal list. shouldn't really count)

Mockingbird
03-27-2015, 11:09 PM
4) Are there any other colorless ways you can abuse painter's servant?


While I don't know about abuse, you can turn the combo into a surprise by putting Grindstone's ability on the stack, then fetching out Servant with Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Also, it would take some digging, but MUD-Post Painter made Top 16 in an SCG IQ a month or two ago.

Mr. Froggy
03-30-2015, 07:24 AM
I played MUD yesterday at a local Legacy event, I went 3-2, which isn't my best run with the deck but it was the first I got to run Ugin to victory vs AggroLoam.

Round 1: 2-1 vs Reanimator
Round 2: 0-2 (can't remember)
Round 3: 2-0 vs AggroLoam
Round 4: 1-2 vs UG Infect
Round 5: 2-0 vs UW StoneBlade

Even if it wasn't my best showing, fun was had.

Ganfar
03-30-2015, 07:49 AM
The MUD and The Nic-Fit matchup has chages after Fate i think. Before Fate the nic-fit was more in flavor for the Cabal and Deeds. Now that MUD plays Ugin I thnik MUD deck is much stronger.

I don't know how I can deal Ugin in a good way with the nic-fit other the mealstorm pulse, that is a one of.

L10
03-30-2015, 08:42 AM
I don't know about that. I never had issues with Nic Fit unless you guys have a guys have a good early Therapy. Most of my friends who plays Nic Fit tends to think the favor is towards the MUD player too. This is mainly because the MUD player is doing "bigger, better" things. You can try Null Rod, which shuts down top. Creeping Corrosion makes one heck of a Burning Wish target if you are playing red.

Bobmans
03-30-2015, 08:42 AM
The MUD and The Nic-Fit matchup has chages after Fate i think. Before Fate the nic-fit was more in flavor for the Cabal and Deeds. Now that MUD plays Ugin I thnik MUD deck is much stronger.

I don't know how I can deal Ugin in a good way with the nic-fit other the mealstorm pulse, that is a one of.
Maelstrom Pulse, Vraska the Unseen, discard (extration effects), Slaughter Games, Pithing Needle. But all in all MUD is a difficult matchup for NicFit. What MUD play is bigger in the end.

Brentane
03-30-2015, 09:17 AM
I am trying to build as many Legacy decks as I can without needing multiple playsets of staples. So far I have Elves, D&T, and OmniTell (Thinking of changing it to Merfolk because Tribal is awesome). I also am thinking of building burn, MUD. Burn interests me because it has one main goal, light your opponent on fire, and I love that. MUD however seems like an extremely fun deck, powering out massive high costed creatures and threats as well as the ability to use Ugin. So my question is, what are the benefits of playing this deck, and what are the downsides?

L10
03-30-2015, 10:14 AM
You get to cast big spells, but you are also susceptible to early disruption. Proxy the decks. Most of the cards are MUD specific, unless you play Tron in Modern or Workshop in Vintage. Most of us who plays MUD are pretty invested in MUD in Legacy.

Bobmans
03-31-2015, 05:02 AM
I am trying to build as many Legacy decks as I can without needing multiple playsets of staples. So far I have Elves, D&T, and OmniTell (Thinking of changing it to Merfolk because Tribal is awesome). I also am thinking of building burn, MUD. Burn interests me because it has one main goal, light your opponent on fire, and I love that. MUD however seems like an extremely fun deck, powering out massive high costed creatures and threats as well as the ability to use Ugin. So my question is, what are the benefits of playing this deck, and what are the downsides?
Not to long ago i owned a large amount of cards and was able to play about roughly 60-70% of this formats decks and played another one every tournament. Instead of proxying it i just bought what was missing. While that gave me a lot of knowledge of many archetypes i found myself having 2 problems:
1. Inconstant plays due to not focussing on one deck. When you play the same deck over and over for a long time you learn to manoeuvre yourself out of narrow situations and start to see details that will matter to win or lose a MU.
2. I was never able to choose what deck to play. So many cool decks and things that all have their strenghts and weaknesses.
Now i have sold a very large portion of my collection and force myself to play that one deck over and over. MUD not being it, but i did keep MUD. I spend about 3 years finding my deck. I also found that the issue did not lie with the decks i played, the issue was myself.

MUD is a beautiful deck. It tells a story of the history of MtG. It is more then one big machine.

kingtk3
03-31-2015, 10:15 AM
I am trying to build as many Legacy decks as I can without needing multiple playsets of staples. So far I have Elves, D&T, and OmniTell (Thinking of changing it to Merfolk because Tribal is awesome). I also am thinking of building burn, MUD. Burn interests me because it has one main goal, light your opponent on fire, and I love that. MUD however seems like an extremely fun deck, powering out massive high costed creatures and threats as well as the ability to use Ugin. So my question is, what are the benefits of playing this deck, and what are the downsides?

Pros.

In a format in which the mana curve leans on 1 and 2 mana spells you can play chalice of the void on turn, which effectively shuts down many of the most played and succesful decks of the format, or some key spells of the others.
Moreover, Legacy is a format full of cantrips and that leads to many decks with 16~20 lands which against which trinisphere can prevent them from casting anything at all.
For those very reasons many decks prefer efficent cards to strong ones (strictly considering the power and/or the effect, not considering the casting cost), so their threats will be outpowered by yours.
It is FUN: what would you prefer, a tiny human that lets you draw cards or transforms into an insect or a big robots that crushes everything it comes accross? Come on, magic is a game so have some fun!



Cons:

You cannot play some of the most efficent spells in magic hystory, most of all the all-mighty blu cantrips.
You suffer more than the other decks from wasteland, since you play no basics (unless you are on godo/daretti) and you need your lands to support your game ending spells
You have no manipulation and (almost) no card drawing, so you are very dependant from your starting seven and your draws: you need to learn how to mulligan well!!!
There's a TON of hate against you, if someone wishes to beat you
Sometimes you will just die from your deck (this is true for any deck, but the ones with cantrip minimaze this chance)
Most of the times your opponents will concede when you lock the game or put into play a game ending bomb, so they neglect you the pleasure to actually see in action your best and most flashy cards



@Bobmans: very nice words, I second you: although I didn't sell my collection and play many decks at the end I always come back to MUD and it feels like coming back home.

Bobmans
03-31-2015, 10:58 AM
I second you: although I didn't sell my collection and play many decks at the end I always come back to MUD and it feels like coming back home.

True, and i second you. The only reason i am not playing MUD as my main is for exactly the cons you just mentioned.

kingtk3
04-01-2015, 05:10 AM
True, and i second you. The only reason i am not playing MUD as my main is for exactly the cons you just mentioned.

Makes sense: currently I have sleeved up MUD and Shardless Bug, and I choose what to play at each single tournament. But I'm forcing myself to only those decks for the reasons you posted before

Jakobian
04-04-2015, 05:33 AM
I am trying to build as many Legacy decks as I can without needing multiple playsets of staples. So far I have Elves, D&T, and OmniTell (Thinking of changing it to Merfolk because Tribal is awesome). I also am thinking of building burn, MUD. Burn interests me because it has one main goal, light your opponent on fire, and I love that. MUD however seems like an extremely fun deck, powering out massive high costed creatures and threats as well as the ability to use Ugin. So my question is, what are the benefits of playing this deck, and what are the downsides?

Here's what I would list as Pros and Cons for MUD:

Pros:
Really good matchups against decks that usually suck to play against (miracles, storm, dredge, elves)

MUD is a ton of fun. You get to play ridiculous robots, do infinite combos sometimes, and bash with blightsteel colossus

Seeing the look on your opponents faces when you resolve chalice of the void at x=1 on turn 1. It really is something to cherish.

MUD is a pretty customizable deck, by which I mean you don't absolutely have to play a stock 75 cards, and have quite a bit of flexibility to fit your play style. There's a lot of colorless/artifact cards available to crush your enemies with.

In the grand scheme of things, the deck is really inexpensive compared to a lot of multi-colored legacy decks (BUG, RUG, Lands, etc.)

I don't feel like the deck will ever fall out of favor. Chalice of the void and trinisphere will always be relavent cards in legacy.

Cons:
You really need to learn to mulligan. I have won several games on mulligans to 5 cards, and at least 1 game on a mull to 4. It's very difficult to decide what a "good" hand is in this deck.

The cards in MUD don't really go in any other deck aside from the manabase. Wastelands go in tons of decks, and sol lands can be used in sneaky show at least

Occasionally you'll just lose to someone having wasteland + life from the loam.

The deck gets better the more you know about what your opponent is doing. By which I mean I would not recommend this deck to players who are new to legacy, as it is easy to mess up the order of spells or to incorrectly evaluate which spells are important in certain matchups.


Additional comment:
I love playing different decks on a regular basis, but overall MUD has won me the most prizes by far, so it is even a good economic decision.

Troll_ov_Grimness
04-04-2015, 01:44 PM
I want to press the reset button on discussing this deck, fundamental problem with it is:

If you play no Cloudposts, you will lose to yourself without mana sources.

If you play Cloudposts, there is often no way to sacrifice enough artifacts for a Forgemaster activation. Even if you activate Forgemaster, and you need to wipe your board, you're often forced to waste your best cards like Chalice of the Void and Triniphere or Lightning Greaves, and this can be a huge pain against control or decks playing Swords to Plowshares. Lightning Greaves is sometimes all you have to win against Liliana of the Veil.

Cutting Forgemaster allows you to play Phyrexian Portal . Look at this! seriously nuts. Great art too...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/168.jpg

This card fixes all of the problems that the deck has. You get insanely powerful top draws using this. The 3 mana to activate is worthwhile I think considering you are guaranteed a worthwhile drop.

Most opponents will split the pile 5 / 5 . If your opponent splits the pile 1 / 9 or 3 / 7 etc, searching the larger pile is surely going to get you a card to win the game with . You can activate the ability a second time that turn and get another card to play. This is far more efficient than dropping a spell that only draws 1 card at a time !

Has anyone tried a list playing no Forgemaster, no Blightsteel?

The way the card will work is :

Your opponent will put all the bombs in one 5 pile, all the weakest cards in the other, and hope that in the 50/50 toss that you pick the pile with the weaker cards.

but no matter what, you always have a 50/50 chance of the best pile.

If your opponent is not totally dumb, they will never split the smallest pile with the best cards, because you do have the option of picking the pile with the best cards.

Or, if you think your opponent is doing that.. and really it's still a 50/50 no matter what, if you pick the larger pile with the best cards, you exile less cards, so its always better to pick the larger pile, because you ahve wider card selection.

To play this card, you want your card selection to matter.

hartigan
04-04-2015, 10:31 PM
In trying almost every legacy deck I can I've realized I have left out MUD and am super interested in giving it a go.

I've already decided that I don't want to play the Cloudpost version as I already played 12 Post for awhile.

As far as lists go the only one I've been able to come across that is not playing Cloudpost is Harold White's list from an SCG Open last year.

Does anyone have more up to date non-Cloudpost MUD list I could take a look at?

Scott
04-04-2015, 10:35 PM
In trying almost every legacy deck I can I've realized I have left out MUD and am super interested in giving it a go.

I've already decided that I don't want to play the Cloudpost version as I already played 12 Post for awhile.

As far as lists go the only one I've been able to come across that is not playing Cloudpost is Harold White's list from an SCG Open last year.

Does anyone have more up to date non-Cloudpost MUD list I could take a look at?

This (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16078&iddeck=120021) got 15th at SCG Houston in February.

Mockingbird
04-04-2015, 10:59 PM
In trying almost every legacy deck I can I've realized I have left out MUD and am super interested in giving it a go.

I've already decided that I don't want to play the Cloudpost version as I already played 12 Post for awhile.

As far as lists go the only one I've been able to come across that is not playing Cloudpost is Harold White's list from an SCG Open last year.

Does anyone have more up to date non-Cloudpost MUD list I could take a look at?One thing to note: MUD-Post is generally more consistent than regular MUD when it comes to playing against control decks. Miracles generally have difficult match-ups against decks that just out-mana them, which is why Cloudpost is one of their most hated cards. It gives us a long game without ever having to worry if one of the heavy machines will get stuck in our hand.

Also, if your concern with avoiding Cloudpost is that MUD-Post plays similar to 12-Post, it doesn't. I play both, and MUD-Post plays a much more aggressive game than 12-Post, which is a control deck. However, to each their own.


This (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16078&iddeck=120021) got 15th at SCG Houston in February.I think I remember that player posting in this forum after getting that result. I believe his comment was that he wished he'd put Karn Liberated in the main because he was constantly siding them game two's throughout that tournament.

Jakobian
04-04-2015, 11:08 PM
Hello again MUDslingers.

I'm sure you're sick of hearing from me, but I got 2nd out of 26 players at a tournament today at Fire & Dice in Woodland Hills, CA. I took home an ok condition Volcanic Island for my troubles.

The list I played is pretty much the same list I have been playing, but I will re-post it so you don't have to dig for it.


4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination





Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 UGin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt



Rnd 1: Affinity (2-1)
Rnd 2: Sneaky show (1-2)
Rnd 3: Dredge (2-0)
Rnd 4: Dredge (2-1)
Rnd 5: Sneaky Show (2-0)
Top8: Omniscience/Show and tell (2-1)
Top4: Death and Taxes (2-0)
Top2: BUG Delver (1-2)

I don't have a lot of notes, but I really liked having 2 batterskulls in my sideboard this time around. I won a fair share of games off the back of BlightSteel Colossus, and a couple off of Staff + Metalworker as well. Against one of the Omnishow decks I resolved a chalice of the void at x=3 and my opponent scooped to it.

(nameless one)
04-04-2015, 11:13 PM
How was Ugin? I think he should be a 3-4 off in the main.

He's just so good when he resolves.

Jakobian
04-04-2015, 11:20 PM
How was Ugin? I think he should be a 3-4 off in the main.

He's just so good when he resolves.

The problem with making him more than a 1-of in the main is you have to cut some other relavent cards, and your early game might suffer from it. decks that have removal for metalworker + a wasteland can keep you from ever casting Ugin in the first place, so I don't feel like running 3-4 in the main is correct unless you're adding some thran dynamos or another additional mana source, which dilutes your strategy against decks in which Ugin is not good. I tried out 2 ugin in the main before deciding upon 1 sideboard 1 maindeck. I prefer to have more of a toolbox capability and be able to get the right card for the situation.

In short, try it out and see how it goes I guess. I would definitely want additional mana sources besides grim monolith and metalworker if I jammed 4 Ugin in the main though.

Jakobian
04-04-2015, 11:27 PM
I want to press the reset button on discussing this deck, fundamental problem with it is:

If you play no Cloudposts, you will lose to yourself without mana sources.

If you play Cloudposts, there is often no way to sacrifice enough artifacts for a Forgemaster activation. Even if you activate Forgemaster, and you need to wipe your board, you're often forced to waste your best cards like Chalice of the Void and Triniphere or Lightning Greaves, and this can be a huge pain against control or decks playing Swords to Plowshares. Lightning Greaves is sometimes all you have to win against Liliana of the Veil.

Cutting Forgemaster allows you to play Phyrexian Portal . Look at this! seriously nuts. Great art too...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ai/168.jpg

This card fixes all of the problems that the deck has. You get insanely powerful top draws using this. The 3 mana to activate is worthwhile I think considering you are guaranteed a worthwhile drop.

Most opponents will split the pile 5 / 5 . If your opponent splits the pile 1 / 9 or 3 / 7 etc, searching the larger pile is surely going to get you a card to win the game with . You can activate the ability a second time that turn and get another card to play. This is far more efficient than dropping a spell that only draws 1 card at a time !

Has anyone tried a list playing no Forgemaster, no Blightsteel?

The way the card will work is :

Your opponent will put all the bombs in one 5 pile, all the weakest cards in the other, and hope that in the 50/50 toss that you pick the pile with the weaker cards.

but no matter what, you always have a 50/50 chance of the best pile.

If your opponent is not totally dumb, they will never split the smallest pile with the best cards, because you do have the option of picking the pile with the best cards.

Or, if you think your opponent is doing that.. and really it's still a 50/50 no matter what, if you pick the larger pile with the best cards, you exile less cards, so its always better to pick the larger pile, because you ahve wider card selection.

To play this card, you want your card selection to matter.

Please try running the phyrexian portal and let us know what kind of results you get with it. Does it consistently do good stuff for you? Are there any matches in which you'd rather have whatever card you're cutting to make room for it? IMO playing with cloudposts doesn't change anything about whether or not forgemaster is sacrificing things that are relevant. 99% of the time when you activate forgemaster you are winning the game anyway, so it doesn't matter what you're sacrificing to it.

hartigan
04-04-2015, 11:31 PM
This (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16078&iddeck=120021) got 15th at SCG Houston in February.

Thanks for the link!


One thing to note: MUD-Post is generally more consistent than regular MUD when it comes to playing against control decks. Miracles generally have difficult match-ups against decks that just out-mana them, which is why Cloudpost is one of their most hated cards. It gives us a long game without ever having to worry if one of the heavy machines will get stuck in our hand.

Also, if your concern with avoiding Cloudpost is that MUD-Post plays similar to 12-Post, it doesn't. I play both, and MUD-Post plays a much more aggressive game than 12-Post, which is a control deck. However, to each their own.

I think I remember that player posting in this forum after getting that result. I believe his comment was that he wished he'd put Karn Liberated in the main because he was constantly siding them game two's throughout that tournament.

I definitely see how a post mana base destroys control, and it's something I've enjoyed in playing 12post. I also can see how mud post would be MUCH more aggressive in terms of it's gameplay, in reality I'm just looking to play a non post deck just to get some use out of my Cities and Tombs :P

In regards to playing the Karns in the main deck of that list, what would you take out for him? What would you put in the SB in his place?

apple713
04-05-2015, 03:08 AM
Please try running the phyrexian portal and let us know what kind of results you get with it. Does it consistently do good stuff for you? Are there any matches in which you'd rather have whatever card you're cutting to make room for it? IMO playing with cloudposts doesn't change anything about whether or not forgemaster is sacrificing things that are relevant. 99% of the time when you activate forgemaster you are winning the game anyway, so it doesn't matter what you're sacrificing to it.

its likely that the opponent will put the best cards in the smaller pile and you'll never pick it because you want "more selection". however a bigger selection of crap is still crap, but you'll never know. the easiest way to test is you just take the top 10 cards off of a 60 card deck and make piles yourself and see what happens. you have better knowledge than your opponent so its unlikely that they will make better piles than you.

Mockingbird
04-05-2015, 11:34 AM
Thanks for the link!



I definitely see how a post mana base destroys control, and it's something I've enjoyed in playing 12post. I also can see how mud post would be MUCH more aggressive in terms of it's gameplay, in reality I'm just looking to play a non post deck just to get some use out of my Cities and Tombs :P

In regards to playing the Karns in the main deck of that list, what would you take out for him? What would you put in the SB in his place?I dunno. I'd probably switch out the Platinum Emperion and the keep the second one in the side. And meta-depending, I usually like to have a Sundering Titan floating somewhere in the 75.

hartigan
04-05-2015, 12:58 PM
I dunno. I'd probably switch out the Platinum Emperion and the keep the second one in the side. And meta-depending, I usually like to have a Sundering Titan floating somewhere in the 75.

Sweet, thanks for the advice!

Fry
04-05-2015, 08:23 PM
In trying almost every legacy deck I can I've realized I have left out MUD and am super interested in giving it a go.

I've already decided that I don't want to play the Cloudpost version as I already played 12 Post for awhile.

As far as lists go the only one I've been able to come across that is not playing Cloudpost is Harold White's list from an SCG Open last year.

Does anyone have more up to date non-Cloudpost MUD list I could take a look at?

Here's my red take on Postless MUD:
Main:
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixer
3x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

Side:
3x Whipflare
1x Batterskull
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Silent Arbiter
2x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Trinisphere


I made 2 changes into this list from the last time I played the deck in a tournament and it's proven to a change for the better in testing against various things.

The changes were I took out the 1 Trading Post from the main for a Solemn Simulacrum to help get the red mana, and it draws a card when sacrificed, which helps fuel Metalworker. The other change was in the board, I never put in all three Spellskite, so I took the third one out for the single Silent Arbiter. The Arbiter is at it's best against elves.

Ganfar
04-06-2015, 06:10 AM
Please try running the phyrexian portal and let us know what kind of results you get with it. Does it consistently do good stuff for you? Are there any matches in which you'd rather have whatever card you're cutting to make room for it? IMO playing with cloudposts doesn't change anything about whether or not forgemaster is sacrificing things that are relevant. 99% of the time when you activate forgemaster you are winning the game anyway, so it doesn't matter what you're sacrificing to it.

Is Coercive Portal just batter? You only have to spend 4 mana once and give you cardadvantage without pay more mana. Also can't be decay.

hartigan
04-06-2015, 04:08 PM
Here's my red take on Postless MUD:
Main:
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixer
3x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

Side:
3x Whipflare
1x Batterskull
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Silent Arbiter
2x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Trinisphere


I made 2 changes into this list from the last time I played the deck in a tournament and it's proven to a change for the better in testing against various things.

The changes were I took out the 1 Trading Post from the main for a Solemn Simulacrum to help get the red mana, and it draws a card when sacrificed, which helps fuel Metalworker. The other change was in the board, I never put in all three Spellskite, so I took the third one out for the single Silent Arbiter. The Arbiter is at it's best against elves.

Thank you so much!

I like the use of Solemn Simulacrum, glad to see that card getting played.

Also just realized I don't think Elves could hardly ever beat a Silent Arbiter... can't be decayed, I guess they could Thoughtseize it but that's about it.

Thanks again for the list, I'll definitely be taking all the suggestions I've gotten into consideration when putting together my MUD deck.

Dice_Box
04-06-2015, 04:21 PM
Reclamation Sage is a thing.

hartigan
04-06-2015, 05:15 PM
Reclamation Sage is a thing.

Dammit.

Fry
04-06-2015, 09:09 PM
True, Reclamation Sage is a thing, but can't be played, or put into play at instant speed, and Forgemaster is awesome like that. I know it's sort of "Living the Dream." However it's still better than some other options out there, and elves isn't an easy match anyway, at least not against the elves players I know. I've had turn 2 Ugin with this deck once, and turn 3 a few times, that's a great help against little elf tree-huggers and Death and Taxes. I don't get his as hard by the Wasteland/Life from the Loam because my lands don't come in play tapped, and I have a few Citadels in my list to help with the Metalworker/Forgemaster combos. Not doing Post builds does give a little less consistent because the ramping is a little harder without the Cloudposts and Vesuvas to exponentially give you crap-tons of mana, but it's very hard to be completely Waste-locked out of a game, holding onto a sol land and getting a citadel in play can get you the Metalworker/Forgemaster, whatever you need, and the 2 basic Mountains also help with that.

(nameless one)
04-07-2015, 08:33 AM
Turn 2 Ugin? How exactly do you pull that off?

bruizar
04-07-2015, 11:09 AM
Turn 2 Ugin? How exactly do you pull that off?

Turn 1 lightning greaves, Turn 2 metalworker

L10
04-07-2015, 12:56 PM
Or Turn 1 Metalworker with Grim Monolith

@hartigan, I have been playing with Fry's list but -1 CoS, +1 Mountain. I also have Contagion Engine in the SB against Elves, DnT, Maverick, etc.
Another MUD list you may be interested in playing is the Stompy Variant.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull
2 Steel Hellkite

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds (flex)
2 Coercive Portal

It plays more of the control route. Lodestone Golem with Wasteland + Port can be pretty hard to deal with.

Fry
04-07-2015, 01:00 PM
Turn 2 Ugin? How exactly do you pull that off?

Turn one Metalworker off of Monolith against Dredge, on the play.

Silverflame
04-08-2015, 03:51 PM
I'd like to thanks everyone for their opinions, it helped me broaden my view on the archetype a lot in a small time frame, as it is not much played in my country, I think I've only been face to face with 3 MUD players in 4 years (sad violin playing).

But I got curious because a few pages ago, someone said Shardless was a good match, but I usually have a terrible game against them using post.
One of the worst games went:
T1 chalice -> fow.
T2 monolith to metalworker-> plowshares EOT then hymn to tourach.
T3 liliana
T4 wasteland GG.

another was
T1 Cloudpost -> wasteland + surgical removing another post from my hand.
T2 glimmerpost -> wasteland.
T3 DRS
T4 goyf
then lili, another waste, another goyf and GG with me never hitting 2 mana.

hartigan
04-08-2015, 03:53 PM
Or Turn 1 Metalworker with Grim Monolith

@hartigan, I have been playing with Fry's list but -1 CoS, +1 Mountain. I also have Contagion Engine in the SB against Elves, DnT, Maverick, etc.
Another MUD list you may be interested in playing is the Stompy Variant.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull
2 Steel Hellkite

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds (flex)
2 Coercive Portal

It plays more of the control route. Lodestone Golem with Wasteland + Port can be pretty hard to deal with.

Haha MUD Stompy seems really oppressive, I'll definitely take that into consideration!

Contagion Engine is a sweet one, there's definitely at least a couple Elves players in my meta so I'll have to give it a try.

lilevo
04-09-2015, 07:49 PM
I am not a MUD specialist but I have played MUD for a long time both on paper and on MODO, I can assure you that BUG Delver/Shardless/Control are not good mu for the deck, the sequence of turns that Silverflame described is very common and that usually results in defeat to the MUD player. After reading the last few pages I would like to offer I few insights, vs BUG I like to side out the at least 2 spheres and all the chalices on the draw on the play chalices can be ok, also Contangion engine over performed for me, don't bring all is dust in vs elves it's a mistake a made a few times when they go off they are not passing the turn back and the same goes for Steel Hellkite.

Jakobian
04-13-2015, 01:52 AM
Hello MUDslingers!

I got 4th out of 47 players at Knightware in LA today. Same list that I posted last time. I won a Force of Will for my troubles. Just wanted to let you guys know the 1 of Ugin in my maindeck has been amazing, and I'm contemplating upping it to 2 in the mainboard.

The matchups were as follows:

Round 1: Some weird rogue deck with wastelands, rishadan ports, goyfs, inkmoth nexus, berserk, invigorate... I won 2-0 by locking him out with chalice on x=1 and x=2 in game 1, and he basically kept an only colorless land hand in game 2 and didn't cast much.
Round 2: Miracles (2-0)
Round 3: Miracles (1-2)
Round 4: Infect (2-0) Chalice at x=1 basically won me both games. In game 1 I think I had staff + metalworker active on turn 3 or 4, can't remember for sure, but I did go infinite for the win.
Round 5: Bant (2-1) Alex Gellerman was my loss at the SCG premier IQ a few weeks back, so it felt super great to beat him here. I boarded in pithing needles to name qasali pridemage and it shut down his ability to deal with some of my stuff.
Round 6: Intentional draw into top8

Top8: Elves (2-0) Chalice at x=1 meant he played zero spells game 1. I sideboarded out 1 sundering titan, 1 lightning greaves, 1 staff of domination, sideboarded in 1 ratchet bomb, 1 ugin, the spirit dragon, 1 steel hellkite. In game 2 he put some pressure on me early on, but I had cloudpost, vesuva, drew a couple of glimmerposts and cast an Ugin to pretty much boardwipe him the turn after I played trinisphere. He has just a bayou in play and plays dryad arbor, I +2 ugin to kill the dryad arbor then cast spine of ish sah to destroy his bayou and he scoops.

Top4: Jund (1-2) Game 1 I had lightning greaves turn 2 into metalworker turn 3 which tapped for 10 mana, I tapped my city of traitors for another 2 mana and cast wurmcoil engine + forgemaster, equipped greaves on forgemaster, got blightsteel colossus and put greaves on it for the win
Game 2 I sideboarded in 1 Sundering titan, 1 ugin, the spirit dragon, 2 batterskull, 1 witchbane orb. I sideboarded out 1 trinisphere, 1 chalice of the void, 1 staff of domination, 1 lightning greaves, 1 spine of ish sah. Game 2 had some back and forth, but double hymn to taurach is pretty bad.
Game 3 I pretty much punted because I kept a bad hand. I hadn't eaten anything other than 2 cliff bars in 9 hours, so I was pretty tired and already made top4 which was good prize. My opponent cast 2 hymn to taurachs and wastelanded me as well, pretty much locked me out of the game.

I am considering cutting witchbane orb and steel hellkite from the 75 entirely, but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with.

kohulk
04-14-2015, 04:42 AM
Depending on the metagame you could go for Dodecapod. It does make hymns and Liliana look stupid and evades Abrupt decay.

kingtk3
04-14-2015, 05:11 AM
Depending on the metagame you could go for Dodecapod. It does make hymns and Liliana look stupid and evades Abrupt decay.

I played dodecapod in the past and while your statements are true unfortunately it's almost always smaller than Tarmogoyf. That's the reason I stopped to play them.

(nameless one)
04-15-2015, 02:02 PM
I added Jakobian's list on the primer as for his/her request.

nerv2004
04-20-2015, 09:27 PM
Thought id post a few well placed lists from recent scg events:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728 Justin Moss 6th
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82001 John Lafreniere 18th
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82021 Greg spanno 21st
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83407 Hunter Prendergast 12th

I think we can say that for post-MUD 2x ugins MB is becoming the standard. Fair bit of personal choice regarding Platinum Emperion, Steel Hellkite and Platinum Angel in the main/side/absent. All have merit depending on the meta etc.

I'm interested in discussing the use of 2x Thran Dynamo in moss's list. Seems he made room for it by cutting a trinisphere and staff of nin. I know it was brought up on here a while ago and I'm interesting to see if people opinions have changed. Personally I'm having more issues finding threats than casting them so cutting the staff isn't my favourite move however I have recently cut a trinisphere from the main and put it in the SB.

Thoughts?

Airwave
04-21-2015, 05:45 AM
Thought id post a few well placed lists from recent scg events:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728 Justin Moss 6th
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82001 John Lafreniere 18th
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82021 Greg spanno 21st
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83407 Hunter Prendergast 12th

I think we can say that for post-MUD 2x ugins MB is becoming the standard. Fair bit of personal choice regarding Platinum Emperion, Steel Hellkite and Platinum Angel in the main/side/absent. All have merit depending on the meta etc.

I'm interested in discussing the use of 2x Thran Dynamo in moss's list. Seems he made room for it by cutting a trinisphere and staff of nin. I know it was brought up on here a while ago and I'm interesting to see if people opinions have changed. Personally I'm having more issues finding threats than casting them so cutting the staff isn't my favourite move however I have recently cut a trinisphere from the main and put it in the SB.

Thoughts?

Note that Moss plays 23 lands instead of 24 lands like the other three. I'm not sure it's the right move but haven't tested it. I wonder how often do you need to make the jump from 4 to 7 mana. Sometimes untapping a previously used Grim Monolith will give you the same (one-time) jump.

Personally I don't like Staff of Nin. I would rather play one of the planeswalkers. I'm also quite surprised by the fact that All is Dust is still prevalent in some of the sideboard. Is one mana less that relevant? Ugin seems far out stronger to me.

mgoldman
04-24-2015, 09:54 AM
I'm taking the following list to a local legacy tournament on Sunday. Likely 25-35 people. Meta is mostly tier 1 decks, lots of delver decks, UWx stoneblades, some D&T, Jund etc..

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

SB
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Pithing Needle
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I'm working on a sideboard plan and I'll post it tonight or tomorrow when I get through it all since I haven't noticed any in this thread.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Silverflame
04-25-2015, 09:42 PM
Hello MUDslingers,
I took Justin's list to a small tournament today and went top, IDing in the finals.
The addition of Thran Dynamo was very useful and I think the list is pretty resilient as it is, I'd only change the 2 All is Dust in the SB (I used Torpor Orb and Batterskull instead) and maybe switching platinum angel with Steel Hellkite.

Barook
05-09-2015, 01:25 PM
I'm looking for a MUD list to play on MTGO. Any suggestion what list to pick up? (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-mud-17670#online)

MTGO metagame (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online)

Bobmans
05-10-2015, 09:09 AM
I'm looking for a MUD list to play on MTGO. Any suggestion what list to pick up? (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-mud-17670#online)

MTGO metagame (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online)

Personally i would suggest the following build. Most raw power/utility/flexibility. This build adepts well switching from a balanced MUD build to anti 3 color tempo to anti combo. Ugin is just that good and most of the times games vs creature decks come down to resolving Ugin so 3 is the right number. Aside from that, the deck can power out a quick hasted colossus for that win now and win fast type of combo. While also being able to go prison vs combo decks like ANT or Burn or just adapt to combat SneakShow. While Revoker stops Sneak Attack or Griselbrand, it can also be used to hold down Liliana, which is a problem card when facing BUG. Offcourse the list can be tweaked to your own liked, which you defenitly should but not before playing it in the field. Also consider going to 61 cards maindeck if you want Spine of Ish Sah mainboard.

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emprion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

sb:
2 Karn Liberated
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion/Angel
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Troll_ov_Grimness
05-10-2015, 12:59 PM
I believe I might have mentioned this deck list but hadn't posted it yet and have wanted to, if I have already I don't think I did , but would love feedback on it, was posted to SCG's website, http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27957_Mono-Red-Metalworker-In-Legacy.html , made by Drew Levin.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Goblin Welder

4 Faithless Looting
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff Of Domination
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Greaves

...

How I would change the mana base of the deck,

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace (with Goblin Welder in the main)
4 Tree Of Tales, Seat of the Synod, Vault Of Whispers, Ancient Den
2 Gemstone Caverns
1-2 open slots, some two colour land, like a Mossfire Valley type, Darkwater Catacombs

cut Faithless Looting for some kind of good utility guy, I don't know what. another hate magnet 1-drop like Ulvenwald Tracker, some removal to deal with Delver. An answer to Batterskull would be nice .

nerv2004
05-11-2015, 08:41 PM
I believe I might have mentioned this deck list but hadn't posted it yet and have wanted to, if I have already I don't think I did , but would love feedback on it, was posted to SCG's website, http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27957_Mono-Red-Metalworker-In-Legacy.html , made by Drew Levin.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Goblin Welder

4 Faithless Looting
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff Of Domination
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Greaves

...

How I would change the mana base of the deck,

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace (with Goblin Welder in the main)
4 Tree Of Tales, Seat of the Synod, Vault Of Whispers, Ancient Den
2 Gemstone Caverns
1-2 open slots, some two colour land, like a Mossfire Valley type, Darkwater Catacombs

cut Faithless Looting for some kind of good utility guy, I don't know what. another hate magnet 1-drop like Ulvenwald Tracker, some removal to deal with Delver. An answer to Batterskull would be nice .

check out this welder deck. Placed 15th recently http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83951

Sockosensei
05-13-2015, 08:52 AM
I haven't had time to post this until now, but my friend placed 22nd at GP Kyoto (1943 players) running the following non-Post list.

MUD (Takumi Sugiyama, 12-3)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion


He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.

Bobmans
05-13-2015, 11:58 AM
I haven't had time to post this until now, but my friend placed 22nd at GP Kyoto (1943 players) running the following non-Post list.

MUD (Takumi Sugiyama, 12-3)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion


He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.
I really like that build. Will defenitly try it and tweak it for a little bit. Did he happened to have written a report somewhere? Great result, especially with that amount of players.

owerbart
05-14-2015, 01:29 AM
Hi. Maybe this is a very stupid question, but MUD hasn't played Mox Diamond in years, hasn't it?

Bobmans
05-14-2015, 08:18 AM
Hi. Maybe this is a very stupid question, but MUD hasn't played Mox Diamond in years, hasn't it?
Well, it is card disadvantage and MUD has enough tools to ramp without the use of Mox Diamond. Besides Sol lands, Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key you could also play Lotus Petal, Mox Opal and perhaps even Cloudpost manabase which provide more then enough. 1 mana out of 2 cards is not what we want to be doing.

RaZe
05-15-2015, 08:00 PM
Mix Diamond is used in Stax lists, in conjunction with Crucible.

bruizar
05-16-2015, 08:44 AM
He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.


I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.

RaZe
05-16-2015, 09:53 AM
I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.
I find factory to be better suited for a prison like build instead of an explosive one like his. I feel like buried ruin would be better in that slot. Unless his meta is full of goblins, and other swarm decks where an early/ extra blocker would help. It does compliment Forgemaster in a unique way few other land does.

Dice_Box
05-16-2015, 04:40 PM
I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.
I disagree. You have more power in the other spells in this deck than you have trying to slip something in under an opponent's defences. The strength of Factory is that it can enter play unimpeded and give you a push when you have an open field. It sucks when someone can cast a snapcaster, Brainstorm and block. Then they effectively Wasteland you for every little cost to themselves.

I am with RaZe, the card is better in decks that are more interested in locking out an opponent and then winning when you have control. This is the reason the card is normally found in decks like Landstill, Chalice Fish and White Stax. (Though two of them are dead decks.) It is also why a deck like Vintage Shops runs a set over something like City even though you have more artifact mana and thus can support City without sacing it a good amount of the time. It is just better to have something you can drop under your own lock and then beat down with.

Sockosensei
05-17-2015, 09:10 AM
I disagree. You have more power in the other spells in this deck than you have trying to slip something in under an opponent's defences.That's an unsuitable comparison because you're not cutting spells to fit Factories. The competition is between Factory and other value lands.

I'm trying out 3x Factory in my MUD-Post build instead of Wasteland just to see how it does. So far it's killed multiple Jace TMS, prevented Liliana from killing a key creature, chump blocked to buy a turn to win, been sacrificed to Forgemaster, and given me immediate pressure after a Terminus. I wouldn't say it has been overwhelmingly strong for me yet, but it has made a solid contribution.

I did also lose one Factory to a Snapcaster late in a game, exactly as you described. Make sure that you're in a position where you can afford to lose a land. Otherwise, don't attack.

Factory and Wasteland are stronger in my friend's list thanks to Crucible.

Bane of the Living
05-17-2015, 03:09 PM
Hey guys!

I haven't been on these forums for a long time but there is a SCG Open near me next weekend I was thinking to attend. I really haven't played in any legacy tournaments since before Vengevine was printed and turned the format into Survival that was banned; So I have a lot of catch up to do.

A few quick questions I guess first because I know recent card printings changed the legacy that I once knew.

What are the popular non post lists' bad matchups and good matchups?

What quite frankly is the reason to play red over white?

I'll post my list in a moment.

RaZe
05-17-2015, 03:43 PM
That's an unsuitable comparison because you're not cutting spells to fit Factories. The competition is between Factory and other value lands.

I'm trying out 3x Factory in my MUD-Post build instead of Wasteland just to see how it does. So far it's killed multiple Jace TMS, prevented Liliana from killing a key creature, chump blocked to buy a turn to win, been sacrificed to Forgemaster, and given me immediate pressure after a Terminus. I wouldn't say it has been overwhelmingly strong for me yet, but it has made a solid contribution.

I did also lose one Factory to a Snapcaster late in a game, exactly as you described. Make sure that you're in a position where you can afford to lose a land. Otherwise, don't attack.

Factory and Wasteland are stronger in my friend's list thanks to Crucible.
You are right in the sense that Factories are not competing for slots with spells but lands. So with all the examples you mentioned, let me post a question. Would <card>Buried Ruin</card> have been better/worse/nodifference? When you are behind, which would you rather draw?

BTY
05-17-2015, 04:17 PM
You are right in the sense that Factories are not competing for slots with spells but lands. So with all the examples you mentioned, let me post a question. Would <card>Buried Ruin</card> have been better/worse/nodifference? When you are behind, which would you rather draw?

I don't think that factory is competing with slots for buried ruin as far as function. The thing with Buried Ruin is that it is very similar to Cavern of Souls. Buried Ruin is better against counter than cavern sometimes (non creature artifacts you want to stick) and worse than it in other situations. Ruin is basically the Cavern of Souls for discard. Obviously ruin is just always better against discard than cavern, but Cavern is usually better against counters. I'm not sure I would want to run both Cavern or Ruin, but there are arguments to be had for including both, so that is a reasonable stance. Obviously they are competing for the same slots in the mana base most of the time, but there are plenty of different advantages that you can't really compare them well.

The reason that factory simply isn't played is because you are prioritizing other "spell-lands". There are certain advantages to Factory that Buried Ruin, Cavern of Souls and Wasteland (those 3 are probably the most played "spell lands" in the deck) don't share. Factory is usually just always better Vs. planeswalkers like Jace and Liliana. Factory also helps chumping out of a turn, the chip-shots with factory add up, and it's usually a reasonable mana sink.

In the mana base of a MUD deck you want 8 Sol lands with probably about 20 lands total. This leaves you 12 slots, which really isn't a whole lot of room. Most people want 4 Caverns, which I think is the best place to cut to make room for Factory, especially if you are playing Buried Ruin. 4 Wasteland is also very common and understandably so, but it is another contentious land people might be willing to cut. That really only leaves you with 4 slots to play with, so you have to make a conscious decision about what you want your lands to do. It's very hard to get your cake and eat it, and this is a perfect example of that. Factory is a very powerful land, and a lot of decks have trouble removing Man lands from play. Factory has a lot of advantages, but to some (like you presumably) it isn't worth the added resilience to disruption that Ruin and Cavern give you.

I'd like to end with a question. In a lot of the situations Sockosensei brings up how valuable would buried ruin be there? The only one I think it is valuable is against Terminus, and in all the others it is probably just worse (I guess it could probably be good against Liliana, but that is pretty contextual). Ruin has other advantages factory doesn't but in those situations Factory is probably the best land available. The only other land I can think of that we play that could have been impactful in those would be Wasteland, but that is not always the case since decks come prepared for wasteland and can actually cast their spells most of the time.

Bobmans
05-17-2015, 04:19 PM
Hey guys!

I haven't been on these forums for a long time but there is a SCG Open near me next weekend I was thinking to attend. I really haven't played in any legacy tournaments since before Vengevine was printed and turned the format into Survival that was banned; So I have a lot of catch up to do.

A few quick questions I guess first because I know recent card printings changed the legacy that I once knew.

What are the popular non post lists' bad matchups and good matchups?

What quite frankly is the reason to play red over white?

I'll post my list in a moment.

I guess you have a lot of catching up to do.
Basicly what happened after SotF got banned.

Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Batterskull
True-Name Nemesis
Terminus
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Omniscience
Dig Through Time
Liliana of the Veil
Thespian Stage
Young Pyromancer
Past in Flames
Gitaxian Probe
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Tempo got more efficient and doesnt rely on Tarmogoyf so it doesnt have to be Ugx. UW Landstill transformed to UWx Miracles. Show and Tell way to powerful. Reanimate and Storm got stronger and got more tools. GBx got a thing, mainly BUG Delver or Shardless BUG. GBx also made Jund and The Rock variant a thing. So did any white splashed deck with Stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull. Also Survival got replaced with NicFit, a list that has the same feel to it, but is different in its fundament (Veteran Explorer interaction with Cabal Therapy, is a GBx shell, uses Pernicious Deed and Green Sun's Zenith and has many variants in different offset colors). The format got faster, more complex (varied is not the correct word), more efficient. And Blue based lists still have an edge due to cardadvantage and cheap countermagic (FoW and Brainstorm still dominate).


White is a staxlike prison deck which is slow and controllish (proactive) by nature. It focusses on locking the game thru Chalice/Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem/Thalia and using other white cards to further lock the opponent while sealing it with Armaggedon. It is another deck (thread) actually.

Red is a more explosive version using graveyard interaction via Goblin Welder. Typically a (good) welder list tries to go off between t2-4, but still has good elements to proactive control/lock the game.

In between is the Cloudpost version (mono brown) which is more of a control version then red and is more consistent, then red, but more aggresive then white. Also the mono brown version is best suited for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The Cloudpost list has most options to consistently resolve Ugin.

Also there is a mono brown non Cloudpost list a couple of posts back that is quite good.

Good thing to do is scout the recent Top8's on mtgdecks or scg. That will give the best impression of the format.

rlesko
05-18-2015, 01:44 AM
Hey guys, I've seen coercive portal pop up in a few lists, but I am wondering why it doesn't see more play. I'm trying to incorporate two into my list right now. Also, Still searching for the ideal number of Ugins main deck...

EDIT: Also, I don't think Mishra's factory is really what this deck wants to be doing. I've experimented in both post and non post builds, and I think I prefer Darksteel Citadel than Mishra's. The deck is already vulnerable to wasteland so Citadel is a hedge against that. Additionally, it combo's very well with Metalworker and forgemaster.

The list with 2 voltaic keys and Thran Dynamo is very interesting. I never played key due to the dis-synergy with Chalice of the Void, but when I was goldfishing the deck with key it just allows you to make insane amounts of mana, and not be reliant on your lands to do so.

Bane of the Living
05-18-2015, 10:02 AM
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Masticore
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Mountain

This is my maindeck right now. I am trying to run a high count of mountains because I feel as though Tempo Wasteland decks are my weak point. Death and Taxes seems kind of tough all though they usually scoop to a huge guy + Chalice at one.

As you can see I have a couple small alterations from many stock lists. I don't believe Voltaic Key is worth playing and costing you a precious card since it effectively does nothing on it's own. I like cogs, but if I had room the cog of choice would be Top along some fetch lands to replace basics. I really like that you can tap top and weld it away. I hate that it costs one and I want to Chalice for one, Welder already conflicts with that strategy but he is downright bonkers.

I play a couple Masticore in my list because I think he has great synergy with Welder, he also lives though removal such as bolt and Abrupt decay. If none of you have tried him I suggest you give him a chance.

Finally, perhaps an eye sore to some, I have the full set of Greaves. I think this is the most important card in the deck strategy, and I am fine with multiples to keep more than one robot hexproof or to ensure the combo victory more often. Most decks can't beat Angel + Greaves, even after sideboard.

I would love to get some comments on the list. Like I said I have done alot of casual play but I haven't played in large tournaments so I don't want to go in as a huge under dog.

Bane of the Living
05-18-2015, 10:04 AM
I guess you have a lot of catching up to do.
Basicly what happened after SotF got banned.

Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Batterskull
True-Name Nemesis
Terminus
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Omniscience
Dig Through Time
Liliana of the Veil
Thespian Stage
Young Pyromancer
Past in Flames
Gitaxian Probe
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Tempo got more efficient and doesnt rely on Tarmogoyf so it doesnt have to be Ugx. UW Landstill transformed to UWx Miracles. Show and Tell way to powerful. Reanimate and Storm got stronger and got more tools. GBx got a thing, mainly BUG Delver or Shardless BUG. GBx also made Jund and The Rock variant a thing. So did any white splashed deck with Stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull. Also Survival got replaced with NicFit, a list that has the same feel to it, but is different in its fundament (Veteran Explorer interaction with Cabal Therapy, is a GBx shell, uses Pernicious Deed and Green Sun's Zenith and has many variants in different offset colors). The format got faster, more complex (varied is not the correct word), more efficient. And Blue based lists still have an edge due to cardadvantage and cheap countermagic (FoW and Brainstorm still dominate).


White is a staxlike prison deck which is slow and controllish (proactive) by nature. It focusses on locking the game thru Chalice/Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem/Thalia and using other white cards to further lock the opponent while sealing it with Armaggedon. It is another deck (thread) actually.

Red is a more explosive version using graveyard interaction via Goblin Welder. Typically a (good) welder list tries to go off between t2-4, but still has good elements to proactive control/lock the game.

In between is the Cloudpost version (mono brown) which is more of a control version then red and is more consistent, then red, but more aggresive then white. Also the mono brown version is best suited for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The Cloudpost list has most options to consistently resolve Ugin.

Also there is a mono brown non Cloudpost list a couple of posts back that is quite good.

Good thing to do is scout the recent Top8's on mtgdecks or scg. That will give the best impression of the format.

Thanks for the info! It seems crazy how much the cards you listed had an impact on the format. When I was more involved with Legacy it seemed the biggest changes came from alterations on the ban list or card erratas, now we have cards that put Tarmogoyf in the corner.

Bobmans
05-18-2015, 10:28 AM
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Masticore
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Mountain

This is my maindeck right now. I am trying to run a high count of mountains because I feel as though Tempo Wasteland decks are my weak point. Death and Taxes seems kind of tough all though they usually scoop to a huge guy + Chalice at one.

As you can see I have a couple small alterations from many stock lists. I don't believe Voltaic Key is worth playing and costing you a precious card since it effectively does nothing on it's own. I like cogs, but if I had room the cog of choice would be Top along some fetch lands to replace basics. I really like that you can tap top and weld it away. I hate that it costs one and I want to Chalice for one, Welder already conflicts with that strategy but he is downright bonkers.

I play a couple Masticore in my list because I think he has great synergy with Welder, he also lives though removal such as bolt and Abrupt decay. If none of you have tried him I suggest you give him a chance.

Finally, perhaps an eye sore to some, I have the full set of Greaves. I think this is the most important card in the deck strategy, and I am fine with multiples to keep more than one robot hexproof or to ensure the combo victory more often. Most decks can't beat Angel + Greaves, even after sideboard.

I would love to get some comments on the list. Like I said I have done alot of casual play but I haven't played in large tournaments so I don't want to go in as a huge under dog.
Angel + Greaves is dangerous. As i said the format is more complex. Eventually (from experience) it gets down to finding a way to remove the Angel in order to win. Most decks have an out in some way. While Platinum Emporion can't prevent you from losing in any situation it does put most situations on pauze and losing emperion doesnt lose you the game.

Anyway, just for reference the latest list of glascannon Welder Mud i was working on (61 card maindeck):

Turbo Welder:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite/(Razormane) Masticore/Spine of Ish Sah
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 (3) Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge/Defense Grid
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon/Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Karn Liberated

This deck tries to punch thru G1 via combo/aggro totally ignoring the opponent and overload. G2 and G3 i put more focus on specific hate / or anti tech, as you will, while keeping the best wincon suited for that matchup in the deck.

Edit: playing 4 Mox Opal is kinda dangerous, keeping you of the 3rd artifact will disrupt development of your boardstate. Also not running Cavern of Souls while having both Welder as Chalice MD is not the best thing to do. Chalice will most of the times be played on 1.

bruizar
05-18-2015, 11:34 AM
That's an unsuitable comparison because you're not cutting spells to fit Factories. The competition is between Factory and other value lands.

I'm trying out 3x Factory in my MUD-Post build instead of Wasteland just to see how it does. So far it's killed multiple Jace TMS, prevented Liliana from killing a key creature, chump blocked to buy a turn to win, been sacrificed to Forgemaster, and given me immediate pressure after a Terminus. I wouldn't say it has been overwhelmingly strong for me yet, but it has made a solid contribution.

I did also lose one Factory to a Snapcaster late in a game, exactly as you described. Make sure that you're in a position where you can afford to lose a land. Otherwise, don't attack.

Factory and Wasteland are stronger in my friend's list thanks to Crucible.

We all know this but I felt the need to point out that the Snapcaster scenario is a non-issue if you have 2 factories in play.

Bane of the Living
05-18-2015, 04:48 PM
Angel + Greaves is dangerous. As i said the format is more complex. Eventually (from experience) it gets down to finding a way to remove the Angel in order to win. Most decks have an out in some way. While Platinum Emporion can't prevent you from losing in any situation it does put most situations on pauze and losing emperion doesnt lose you the game.

Anyway, just for reference the latest list of glascannon Welder Mud i was working on (61 card maindeck):

Turbo Welder:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite/(Razormane) Masticore/Spine of Ish Sah
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 (3) Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge/Defense Grid
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon/Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Karn Liberated

This deck tries to punch thru G1 via combo/aggro totally ignoring the opponent and overload. G2 and G3 i put more focus on specific hate / or anti tech, as you will, while keeping the best wincon suited for that matchup in the deck.

Edit: playing 4 Mox Opal is kinda dangerous, keeping you of the 3rd artifact will disrupt development of your boardstate. Also not running Cavern of Souls while having both Welder as Chalice MD is not the best thing to do. Chalice will most of the times be played on 1.

I didn't think of playing Cavern to get Welder in through Chalice that's really cool! When looking at other lists I thought it was included just to get past the blue counter decks. On that note what is the second best creature type to name?

Silverflame
05-18-2015, 06:59 PM
I didn't think of playing Cavern to get Welder in through Chalice that's really cool! When looking at other lists I thought it was included just to get past the blue counter decks. On that note what is the second best creature type to name?

It depends on your hand and the match you're on. Most of the time I'd go for construct (forgemaster, metalworker ), golem (lodestone golem, sundering titan, platinum emperion) or wurm/dragon if I really need wurmcoil/hellkite to stick. I play with post-build, so I can just look at my hand and see the types I have, but on red mud, goblin or construct is correct 90% of the time as you're trying to combo asap.

Bane of the Living
05-19-2015, 09:06 AM
I got to play in a small tournament in my town at Geek Stuff Games Spencer MA last night.

I went 2-2 with my posted list.

G/W Enchantress:
Game one he plays mana ramp into Rest in Peace, I play Greaves into Metalworker into double Lodestone Golem. He plays Serra's Sanctum, Helm of Obedience, and decks me.
Game two I play turn one Citadel, turn two Tomb, Monolith, Opal, Greaves, Forgemaster, Blightsteel swing.

Ahh yes, welcome back to legacy.

Game three we go to about turn 5 somehow! I get Platinum Angel with Greaves on it and before she kills him he draws 40 cards off Enchantress effects and goes Oblivion Ring into Journey to Nowhere into Helm kill. I remember that he kept just enough toughness on table two turns to live through a comboed out Blightsteel. I made a mistake in not using it to kill over 2 turns. Ah well.

I also lost to Goblins because I couldn't get a Wurmcoil on board. Even though I had a turn 2 Angel. Gempalm eventually killed it.

I did manage to beat Nic Fit and a Sultai Faeries list. Deathrite Shaman can be a pain in the ass to play around but it can be done.

Masticore over performed for me acting as a quick clock, and almost being a walking Jitte. I missed having a maindeck Sundering Titan, the one of Key was nice because it gave me a card to take out and I never could hit multiples to kill draws. Opal was bomb over Petal because I got to weld it out of forge it into big robots many times. I never got to cast Ugin, granted I am a non-post build. Finally I wish I had Bloodmoon in the side.

Has anyone thought to play Batterskull over Wurmcoil?

And is there any mass Enchantment removal in red or mono brown? Ratchet Bomb is there but it seems slow.

potatodavid
05-21-2015, 09:33 AM
And is there any mass Enchantment removal in red or mono brown? Ratchet Bomb is there but it seems slow.



Good Joke!

BTY
05-21-2015, 11:13 AM
Has anyone thought to play Batterskull over Wurmcoil?


If you are playing goblin welder Wurmcoil is probably just always better because of the ability to constantly flip it in and out of play.

contra
05-21-2015, 11:15 AM
Hi! I'm new to this forum, but I'd like to get some feedback on my list:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
3 cavern of souls
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 metalworker
4 kudoltha forgemaster
4 ugin, the spirit dragon
4 lodestone golem
4 wurmcoil engine
3 staff of domination
1 spine of ish sah
1 steel hellkite

SB
2 ensnaring bridge
3 ratchet bomb
3 tormod's crypt
2 silent arbiter
3 pithing needle
1 phyrexian revoker
1 coercive portal

I feel that MUD wants to run 4-ofs to help with it's main weakness of being inconsistent. Staff of domination is really strong as a utility even if you're not going infinite. I'm not a huge fan of tons of forgemaster targets, and in fact I've thought about cutting him entirely for 4 batterskulls. Although spine of ish sah has been an invaluable target in several matches. Lmk what y'all think!

BTY
05-21-2015, 02:09 PM
Hi! I'm new to this forum, but I'd like to get some feedback on my list:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
3 cavern of souls
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 metalworker
4 kudoltha forgemaster
4 ugin, the spirit dragon
4 lodestone golem
4 wurmcoil engine
3 staff of domination
1 spine of ish sah
1 steel hellkite

SB
2 ensnaring bridge
3 ratchet bomb
3 tormod's crypt
2 silent arbiter
3 pithing needle
1 phyrexian revoker
1 coercive portal

I feel that MUD wants to run 4-ofs to help with it's main weakness of being inconsistent. Staff of domination is really strong as a utility even if you're not going infinite. I'm not a huge fan of tons of forgemaster targets, and in fact I've thought about cutting him entirely for 4 batterskulls. Although spine of ish sah has been an invaluable target in several matches. Lmk what y'all think!

Well given the way you built the deck Forgemaster looks pretty weak since the best card it would get is wurmcoil engine. It can also get staff if you have enough artifacts for the combo but since you cut the cards like Blightsteel and Sundering Titan then Batterskull or some other 4 or 5 cmc beater is probably just better. If you want to change the threat base to actually make forgemaster better I would suggest cutting 1 Staff of Domination, maybe 2, and 1 wurmcoil engine. Personally I like 3 Sundering Titan main with no Blightsteel. I have also been a fan of 1 Platinum Angel main. If you don't want to change much to improve forgemaster than cutting it is fine.

contra
05-21-2015, 02:55 PM
I've been using hellkite and spine as forgemaster targets. Like I said I don't think having a ton 1-ofs is where this deck wants to be since it struggles with consistency. I'd also argue that if you've already resolved 3 artifacts and have an active forgemaster, you should already be winning. Additionally, there isn't a target which wins on the spot unless you have a pair of greaves. I do however think I could make space for a sundering titan though. The reason I wouldn't add multiples is because he increases the mana curve too much. Where's the love for staff od?

BTY
05-21-2015, 09:10 PM
I've been using hellkite and spine as forgemaster targets. Like I said I don't think having a ton 1-ofs is where this deck wants to be since it struggles with consistency. I'd also argue that if you've already resolved 3 artifacts and have an active forgemaster, you should already be winning. Additionally, there isn't a target which wins on the spot unless you have a pair of greaves. I do however think I could make space for a sundering titan though. The reason I wouldn't add multiples is because he increases the mana curve too much. Where's the love for staff od?

Well resolving 3 artifacts isn't necessarily a win if it is things like Metalworker (sometimes), grim monolith, even chalice and trinisphere somtimes are pretty low impact.

I'm not a huge fan of Staff of Domination since I would rather just be casting my spells. The combo is fairly easy to disrupt and if you don't draw it early you are going to play out all your artifacts, which when you draw the staff makes it a pretty bad draw. It is fairly versatile but it costs a lot of mana, which is pretty miserable when I'd rather just be casting my spells. I have 1 for a forgemaster target just because sometimes you just get to win, but it is very expensive versatility.

I also think that you can build a consistent deck with forgemaster without a lot of one of's. Right now my forgemaster targets are 3 wurmcoil engine, 3 sundering titan, 1 staff of domination, 1 Platinum Angel. I also run 2 Staff of Nin (not a good tutor target but I feel like it's worth mentioning). I do think that Blightsteel is overrated for multiple reasons. Firstly, drawing it is terrible, it is also tough to cast. Sundering Titan usually just wins the game anyway and swords to plowshares is an effective 4 for 1 if you forge it out, where as Titan has a pseudo protection from removal.

Bane of the Living
05-22-2015, 08:56 AM
Well resolving 3 artifacts isn't necessarily a win if it is things like Metalworker (sometimes), grim monolith, even chalice and trinisphere somtimes are pretty low impact.

I'm not a huge fan of Staff of Domination since I would rather just be casting my spells. The combo is fairly easy to disrupt and if you don't draw it early you are going to play out all your artifacts, which when you draw the staff makes it a pretty bad draw. It is fairly versatile but it costs a lot of mana, which is pretty miserable when I'd rather just be casting my spells. I have 1 for a forgemaster target just because sometimes you just get to win, but it is very expensive versatility.

I also think that you can build a consistent deck with forgemaster without a lot of one of's. Right now my forgemaster targets are 3 wurmcoil engine, 3 sundering titan, 1 staff of domination, 1 Platinum Angel. I also run 2 Staff of Nin (not a good tutor target but I feel like it's worth mentioning). I do think that Blightsteel is overrated for multiple reasons. Firstly, drawing it is terrible, it is also tough to cast. Sundering Titan usually just wins the game anyway and swords to plowshares is an effective 4 for 1 if you forge it out, where as Titan has a pseudo protection from removal.

I don't know that I would cut Blightsteel without bringing in some serious combo hate for the main. He is one of the few ways to close the game on a storm time frame. I was thinking of putting my Platinum Angel in my sideboard to go up to three Masticore.

If any of you are avid MUD players and have not given this guy the time of day, I implore you to do so. He is an all star, most likely the better pair up with Welder himself over Forgemaster.

Playing more 4 drops bad ass robots has me thinking that we may not need Forgemaster at all. He certainly can even be a liability if playing against blue Stifle decks. Maybe just playing 3 Wurmcoils, 3 Sundering Titans, 3 Masticore, 4 Lodestone would give us all the powerful robots we want.

contra
05-22-2015, 11:54 AM
I don't know that I would cut Blightsteel without bringing in some serious combo hate for the main. He is one of the few ways to close the game on a storm time frame. I was thinking of putting my Platinum Angel in my sideboard to go up to three Masticore.

If any of you are avid MUD players and have not given this guy the time of day, I implore you to do so. He is an all star, most likely the better pair up with Welder himself over Forgemaster.

Playing more 4 drops bad ass robots has me thinking that we may not need Forgemaster at all. He certainly can even be a liability if playing against blue Stifle decks. Maybe just playing 3 Wurmcoils, 3 Sundering Titans, 3 Masticore, 4 Lodestone would give us all the powerful robots we want.


The reason I play MUD is because its so strong against my storm heavy meta - chalice, trini, and even the amount of life gain from glimmer and wurm all make it a great matchup. I can't see blightsteel making an appearance vs storm...

I think masticore belongs in a much different shell - one with welder, ensnaring bridge main, possibly bottled cloister and myr battlesphere - but def not the quad laser build I'm proposing.

I've had a ton of success with the full playset of ugin. A resolved ugin is game against the majority of the field, and the biggest advantage is that he can't be swords. He lands, either all is dust or bolt, then game in a few turns the majority of the time.

BTY
05-22-2015, 02:30 PM
I don't know that I would cut Blightsteel without bringing in some serious combo hate for the main. He is one of the few ways to close the game on a storm time frame. I was thinking of putting my Platinum Angel in my sideboard to go up to three Masticore.

If any of you are avid MUD players and have not given this guy the time of day, I implore you to do so. He is an all star, most likely the better pair up with Welder himself over Forgemaster.

Playing more 4 drops bad ass robots has me thinking that we may not need Forgemaster at all. He certainly can even be a liability if playing against blue Stifle decks. Maybe just playing 3 Wurmcoils, 3 Sundering Titans, 3 Masticore, 4 Lodestone would give us all the powerful robots we want.

I already run Platinum Angel main and with chalice and trinisphere most combo decks, besides sneak and show and reanimator are already very good. Blightsteel doesn't really help much against those because they are so explosive it is too slow to matter most of the time. When I first started playing the deck (January 2014) Blightsteel Colossus was being boarded out in almost every game. I thought that if I'm boarding it out so much, why have it in the deck to begin with. I also very really went for it with forgemaster because of the risk of swords to plowshares.

Bane of the Living
05-22-2015, 04:50 PM
Isn't the Goblin Welder/Forgemaster deck just completely different from the 12 post Ugin builds?

It seems to me that 12 post is far more suitable to non-Wasteland opponents.

I'm expecting a lot of Death and Taxes, so I'd like to know each builds strengths and weaknesses concerning that match if anyone has good input on it.

Bobmans
05-22-2015, 05:04 PM
Isn't the Goblin Welder/Forgemaster deck just completely different from the 12 post Ugin builds?

It seems to me that 12 post is far more suitable to non-Wasteland opponents.

I'm expecting a lot of Death and Taxes, so I'd like to know each builds strengths and weaknesses concerning that match if anyone has good input on it.
Chalice on 1 ruins their day, IF they dont play Vial or when you cast it on the play. If you do the Chalice on 3 completely stops their interaction. Basicly they have an answer/out on everything we play. Phyrexian Revoker and Flickerwhisp are the most dangerous cards, also Wasteland, Swords to Plowshares and Rishadan Ports makes it hard. Mostly its a grindfest and games are decided by tight play and who draws better.

bruizar
05-25-2015, 03:51 AM
Chalice Will just get flickerwisped. D&T is never easy. D&T is exceptionally strong against decks that put their eggs in one basket, like 12-post. I've seen D&T race progenitus and emrakul on more than one occasion.

the_MTGeezer
05-25-2015, 08:18 PM
Hey guys, just wanted to take a quick minute to post my list here:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Empyrion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Coercive Portal
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
4 Grim Monolith
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

SB:
1 Trinisphere
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Staff of Nin
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trading Post
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb

I split first place in a local Legacy tournament this past weekend, my second finals in consecutive Legacy tourneys with it, and the deck has been a lot of fun to play. Words cannot adequately describe just how much I love playing Ugin against much of the metagame right now, he's just a brutal and devastating wrecking ball of a card for people to play against.

Barook
05-26-2015, 04:07 AM
How is the MUD match-up vs. Omnitell?

contra
05-26-2015, 08:20 AM
How is the MUD match-up vs. Omnitell?



The 12-post version is very strong versus omnitell. Often times you can get a lodestone golem or trinisphere out before they s&t omni or a chalice on 1 to slow them down. Post SB it still seems good, especially if you have thorn of amethyst. I typically take out my ugins and other higher cmc bombs for this matchup. Also chalice on 3 is gg

ZEROorDIE
05-26-2015, 09:30 AM
Hello all, recently picked up magic again(around sept of last year after a ~10year hiatus). Been playing this Justin Moss' version of this deck in local legacy tournaments for around 3 months now. I just sincerely love smashing with big dumb robots.

Also to weigh in on the blightsteel debate and touch on omni tell at the same time, I had a pretty sweet win against omni last night. He> show and tell> omni> emrakul. I put in platinum angel. I have 7 permanents, he passses turn. I play forgemaster and thran. Pass back. He attacks, in response I forgemaster blightsteel and sack my 6 remaining permanents to annihilator, take 15 and go to 1, untap and swing with blightsteel for the win.

Blightsteel i s necessary with the speed of combo decks right now. He also landed me a pretty sweet win against high tide.

Looking forward to playing this deck as much as possible

Ogh!
05-26-2015, 09:44 AM
Also to weigh in on the blightsteel debate and touch on omni tell at the same time, I had a pretty sweet win against omni last night. He> show and tell> omni> emrakul. I put in platinum angel. I have 7 permanents, he passses turn.

Did your opponent forget to announce the extra turn trigger?

ZEROorDIE
05-26-2015, 03:52 PM
Did your opponent forget to announce the extra turn trigger?

I think I combined two games there. I believe he s&t straight to emrakul on that one and thus did not get the extra turn trigger. The game he played s&t>omni>emrakul I was dead as dead can be.

darkgh0st
05-31-2015, 11:42 AM
Hi all, I've been away since i forgot my password and couldn't reset it so I made this new account.

I've been continuously testing the Nameless Stax list from page 68 against various MU's, mostly Blade Control.

Deck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I was switching back and forth between 3/4 Wastelands and 4/3 Mishra's Factory, but that did not really matter due to the Vesuvas.


Findings:
* Wins always came with:

- Lodestone Golem with Sphere protection, 2 Lodestone Golems (copy or not)
- early Phyrexian Revoker beats (with or without Mishra's Factory)
- a single Steel Hellkite (which most of the time, was tutored for)
- early Crucible of Worlds lock
- uncountered creatures with Chalice protection

* Wins never came when:

- mana flooded (happened quite often as there are 25 lands and 7 mana rocks), multiple Mox Diamond draws
- Sundering Titan taking out 6 lands
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Phyrexian Metamorph copying opponent creatures or Batterskull
- a lot of Tangle Wire hands, just uncountered creatures (which met removal)


After my findings, I made some changes to make the deck more aggressive. For now, the changes are:
-2 Phyrexian Metamorph, +2 Steel Hellkite
-1 Mox Diamond, +1 Grim Monolith
-1 Tangle Wire, +1 Wurmcoil Engine

I remember from Nameless One's old post that the deck used to have 3 Steel Hellkites and wanted to try that out.
After the changes, I had a higher win rate pre-board vs Blade Control and DnT (with this deck, I find DnT to be easier MU with MUD combo builds).

The deck is still very dependent on building its manabase using the 11Post package, but is still very manageable.

My next experiements on the list is to develop the sideboard more.

I will also be working on Zirath's decklist from the front page link (MUDstompy no Forgemaster). The deck is very interesting and does not rely on its landbase (having Thran Dynamo). The argument about Cursed Totem being very powerful gets to me.


~ GL to all MUD players ~

peachonthebeach
06-01-2015, 09:05 AM
Hi,

I just started playing MUD. Can someone give me tips on my decklist? this is what I currently play:

4 Chalice of the void
4 lightning greaves
4 grim monolith
4 trinisphere

1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
1 steel hellkite
1 platinum emperion
2 wurmcoil engine
4 lodestone golem
4 metalworker
3 phyrexian revoker
4 kuldotha forgemaster

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 cavern of souls
2 buried ruins
2 darksteel citadel
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

I haven't yet builded a sideboard.

I look forward to any tips

Zirath
06-01-2015, 09:37 AM
I will also be working on Zirath's decklist from the front page link (MUDstompy no Forgemaster). The deck is very interesting and does not rely on its landbase (having Thran Dynamo). The argument about Cursed Totem being very powerful gets to me.

Good to see people working on Stumpy. A couple things:

1) True-Name Nemesis and Young Pyromancer are super frustrating. Steel Hellkite is a must.

2) Because you play no Posts, you have to lower your curve significantly. This means cards like Sundering Titan are a no-no.

3) In general, MUD has some issues with drawing all mana or all threats so this is the reason Forgemaster has been so successful. Staff of Nin is not a satisfying card for me as an example.

honz
06-01-2015, 10:43 AM
Perhaps randomly posting your list that you may or may not have come up with in the shower and never actually played with isn't the best method of conversation...

And to completely undermine that, here we go:


....list...

4 lightning greaves is simply too many. When you run 4 of something, you are saying "I want to see more than one of this card a game". Multiple greaves is bad. This deck already suffers from playing a lot of non-action cards (monolith, metalworker, trinisphere, chalice...etc), and doesn't need to gum up the deck with a bunch more. This combined with the fact that most opponents will hold mana open for their removal when they see greaves on the board and kill your guy in resp to the equipping, is why most people only run 1-2 greaves.

In my mind, if you are playing mono-brown, you should run cloudposts. This deck needs mana, plain and simple. Port is cute, but Ugin, the spirit dragon is better.

3 phyrexian revokers in the main is probably 3 too many. It is a very good sideboard card, though. Besides, you need to make room for those Ugins once you start running cloudposts



...list...

Playing a prison orientated deck without trinisphere is silly. Its the 2nd best prison card in the game (1st being chalice), play it.

Same goes for metalworker. You have a deck full of expensive artifact cards. It is free mana. Play it.


...list...

That is a very standard list, and looks very solid. The only thing I would say is that coercive portal probably isn't good enough to make the cut, and a 3rd ugin might be better, but it is up to you. Also, I think 2 wurmcoil + 1 batterskull is better than 3 wurmcoils, but again it is a matter of preference.


...list...
3 staff of domination is too many. You really only want this card when you have the ability to combo off with metalworker. If you are using it to draw cards, coercive portal/staff of nin/bottled cloister do that better. If you are tapping down a creature, having a bigger creature (wurmcoil, lodestone, ugin..etc) does that better.

There is no reason to play kuldotha if you don't have blightsteel in your deck, but you should have blightsteel in your deck. The only cards that see play that can answer a blightsteel is sword to plowshares and terminus. Without a doubt, I have won more games with blightsteel than any other card in the deck.


...list...

The main reason to play red now is for Daretti, scrap savant. Daretti is better than welder and masticore. As far as your list goes, you definitely need cavern of souls to get welder past chalice. You should also find room for trinisphere, since the card is amazing. The combination of these 2 things makes mox opal much worse, so it should be cut. Just to give you some ideas, here is the red list I was running before Ugin came out:

2 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
2 Lodestone golem
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull

1 Blightsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere

4 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination

4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
2 Thousand-year elixir
1 Lightning Greaves

3 Grim monolith

4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
3 Pyroclasm
1 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Contagion engine
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant
1 Staff of Nin

I think thousand-year elixir really shines here. It gives you guaranteed activations out of welder/metalworker/kuldotha even if they have removal and the mana to cast it, where greaves would do nothing. If they don't have removal/mana, it gives you double activations (think of kuldotha -> battlesphere -> untap kuldotha -> sac 3 tokens - > something else). Battlesphere is solid with welder/daretti as well. Pyroclasm out of the board helps against elves, death and taxes, and young pyro (whipflare is another option, but doesn't kill the phyrexian revokers from death and taxes).

I would say that this list struggles against tarmogoyf (generally a 5/6 or 6/7), and can't reliably get to 8 mana for Ugin, the spirit dragon. I do think Ugin alone makes a cloudpost list better so.....

Hope that helps

darkgh0st
06-01-2015, 12:39 PM
Playing a prison orientated deck without trinisphere is silly. Its the 2nd best prison card in the game (1st being chalice), play it.

Same goes for metalworker. You have a deck full of expensive artifact cards. It is free mana. Play it.


I have a MUD combo decklist. The list I posted plays completely differently from your usual MUD because I wanted it to be that way.

(nameless one)
06-01-2015, 06:37 PM
I have a MUD combo decklist. The list I posted plays completely differently from your usual MUD because I wanted it to be that way.

I think you can get away with 3x Steel Helkite instead of having 1x Wurmcoil, 1x Titan, 1x Hellkite. You can gain life off of Post lands but not sure if it's enough.

Also, have you tried Ugin in that list? I haven't been doing anything with MUD so I never got the chance to test with Ugin.

darkgh0st
06-01-2015, 10:14 PM
I think you can get away with 3x Steel Helkite instead of having 1x Wurmcoil, 1x Titan, 1x Hellkite. You can gain life off of Post lands but not sure if it's enough.

Also, have you tried Ugin in that list? I haven't been doing anything with MUD so I never got the chance to test with Ugin.

I tried with just 3 Hellkites. Problem is when you can't use his ability, then you're stuck with a cute 5/5 flyer. Don't know, I'll figure something out.

The life off Posts is usually enough for decks other than burn.

I picked up 2 Ugins during the weekend and put them in the sideboard. I'm thinking of going transformative SB vs control, siding in 2 Ugins and 2 Karns over the Spheres. I haven't tested yet though. (I mainly wanted them to replace All is Dust in Zirath's first list.)

Airwave
06-02-2015, 03:46 AM
I think you can get away with 3x Steel Helkite instead of having 1x Wurmcoil, 1x Titan, 1x Hellkite. You can gain life off of Post lands but not sure if it's enough.

Also, have you tried Ugin in that list? I haven't been doing anything with MUD so I never got the chance to test with Ugin.

I've upped Ugin to 4 main now. I don't remember losing any game with him landing. I'll be playing MUD in GP Lille next month.

Bobmans
06-02-2015, 04:23 AM
I tried with just 3 Hellkites. Problem is when you can't use his ability, then you're stuck with a cute 5/5 flyer. Don't know, I'll figure something out.

The life off Posts is usually enough for decks other than burn.

I picked up 2 Ugins during the weekend and put them in the sideboard. I'm thinking of going transformative SB vs control, siding in 2 Ugins and 2 Karns over the Spheres. I haven't tested yet though. (I mainly wanted them to replace All is Dust in Zirath's first list.)
5/5 Flyer is nothing to sneeze at. I have been more impressed by Hellkite then Wurmcoil to be honest. Now i am gonna stick with a 2/2 split between the 2 cards.

Zirath
06-02-2015, 08:38 AM
I tried with just 3 Hellkites. Problem is when you can't use his ability, then you're stuck with a cute 5/5 flyer. Don't know, I'll figure something out.

The life off Posts is usually enough for decks other than burn.

I picked up 2 Ugins during the weekend and put them in the sideboard. I'm thinking of going transformative SB vs control, siding in 2 Ugins and 2 Karns over the Spheres. I haven't tested yet though. (I mainly wanted them to replace All is Dust in Zirath's first list.)

If you are having trouble using Hellkite's sweep active, that's an unusual situation. Usually, you are going to be using it for 1 or 2.

All is Dust left my list rather quickly. It's just not good enough.

mgoldman
06-02-2015, 09:16 AM
I've upped Ugin to 4 main now. I don't remember losing any game with him landing. I'll be playing MUD in GP Lille next month.

Any consideration to running haven of the spirit dragon? It gets back Ugin and the hellkites. I'm putting together a "different" list that I'm going to try out for a while. I've been playing regular 11-post MUD to great success at my LGS for a few months now so I want to try something different. Any thoughts on this:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Defense Grid
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Nin
2 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

I'm wondering if I should even run metalworker at this point. I don't know that 13 threats is enough either. I expect I'll have some number of ensnaring bridge in the 75 too. With all the lands that could be replayed from my GY (13 + factories if I use them as chump blockers) maybe I should have 3 crucibles too.

Probably just a pile but I'll give it a try once i get all the cards.

Bobmans
06-02-2015, 09:54 AM
Good to see people working on Stumpy. A couple things:

1) True-Name Nemesis and Young Pyromancer are super frustrating. Steel Hellkite is a must.

2) Because you play no Posts, you have to lower your curve significantly. This means cards like Sundering Titan are a no-no.

3) In general, MUD has some issues with drawing all mana or all threats so this is the reason Forgemaster has been so successful. Staff of Nin is not a satisfying card for me as an example.

Ok, i just had to write something about MUD while i was bored at work.

The conclusion Zirath has drawn is spot on. Having an active Steel Hellkite on the board against those cards is deciding games. It wrecks Pryomancer and simply races TNN. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is an animal against those cards aswell.

Cloudpost manabase vs Artifact/red enabled manabases. I have noticed that without a Cloudpost manabase it happens a LOT that you are running out of your own curve pretty fast and that your opponent has a fairly easy job to cut you out of mana (or enough mana to keep casting bigger stuff). Currently the Meta is very varied in the way that everybody is just playing everything. Running into BUG Delver or Jund happens. Those decks in particular are a nightmare and you really have to make sure you land an Ugin to close out games. The Cloudpost manabase is typically a turn slower, but it is able to create a boardstate with "different" sources of mana pretty fast. I have also noticed that most of the times your opponent is not able to cut them all off and by the time you reach critical mass and cast Ugin, the have run out of resources to prevent Ugin from happening. Unless they can cast Dig Through Time... Offcourse this sounds like an ideal world, but in fact it is not. Mostly the early turns are a struggle and games are often decided by the one having the longest breath (duh). So i have changed some cards that i feel are in benefit of reaching that point.

A. Wasteland, Sundering Titan, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, (Crucible of Worlds). A lot of decks in legacy suffer from a well-timed Wasteland, especially paired with a taxing effect. Still i believe this to be the power of MUD and should be exploited to the maximum. I have made compromise to enable more room in the main list for flexibility, but post-board things should get even better against decks that run non-basics only. Crucible of Worlds is a underappriciated card here that can potentially create a lock.

B. 4x Mishra's Factory vs 0x Cavern of Souls. To my latest findings i found that Cavern of Souls didn't really matter most of the times. Due to fact that so many decks run efficient removal next to their counterpackage. They can't counter Wurmcoil?, Fine they'll just Exile it with Swords. So that openened room for another idea i had based on a list that was posted a while ago. Mishra's Factory. I was truly suprised how often that card in any deck puts so much pressure on the board. It will either attract Wasteland away from Cloudpost (or force them in making bad decisions) or you can keep up putting pressure to planeswalker like Jace or Liliana! Also with Crucible of Worlds in the plan, it will make things even better. The card have the ability to keep Ugin safe from a lot of attackers that do survive it's -x orhave haste and it gives the option to keep +2 Ugin, while keeping other creatures of. Last, when Mishra's Factory is a creature, it can also function as an artifact to sacrifice to Forgemaster for value. 3 City of Traitors. There was a compromise required to include a full playset of Factories which is needed in my oppinion to fully exploit it's potential so City of Traitors got a cut. In my eyes it is the weakest land of all and seeing multiples in the opening is bad. On top of that, the number of other lands cannot go lower in the numbers they currently are.

C. 4x Kuldotha Forgemaster, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, Blighsteel Colossus, Staff of Domination. At one point i wanted to stop playing forgemaster, but then Zirath made this comment and i realised that i am not going to push Forgemaster to combo, but i have to see him as a control mechanism (that can sometimes just random win). So to fully exploit it i included the Sundering Titan which is the best tempo/control hate and Platimnum Emperion which is the best combo/aggro hate. They mix well, and including a second piece in the board can increase a natural drop of either one in the matchup where it pulls most of it's weight. Then there is Blightsteel Colossus and Staff of Domination. Both serve this deck as combo pieces, but can be utilized as control mechanisms. Especially Staff of Domination which is the weirdest card to play, but can pull bunny's out of the hat. One just has to understand how it is deployed.

D. Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite. Both cards often fighting for the same slots i have now an equal split. While Wurmcoil Engine has always been the most powerful "aggro" creature of the decks it has often let me down. Next to this, Steel Hellkite has been underappriciated by many, i have seen that card win out of weird situations. A lot of times when it connects the game was sealed. Plus a flyer that is out of reach from Bolt and Abrupt Decay and can block the insect human give it so much value. The question you got to ask yourself against every (different) matchup is, which one can race best?

E. Scarecrone. This one is the odd man out. Since it was suggested by Alexholland i have been in love with the card. Especially in matchup's where you include Phyrexian Revoker is is golden. They are cheap to cast, nullify a lot of removal mid/lategame and replace themself (for one mana) if they might get removed. Having 2 can potentially draw lots of cards. Instead of looking to a card like Staff of Nin, i think that a card like this might just be the thing you need to stay ahead of attrition games. Or at least recover from it.

F. Defense Grid. Of all the "lock" or "Taxing" cards, i have found Defense Grid the best against countermagic. Casts for 2 (solland) and is a must answer for blue decks or they risk getting behind. Offcourse this looks as obvious, but that is not always true. While other "lock" mechanics are doing their work (Chalice/3Sphere), this one is the best choice.

G. To answer the is Metalworker still a card to run? Yes! Liek i said earlier, the Cloudpost version of the deck has the ability to generate mana from different angles and most opponents can prevent them all from happening. Just draw-go into enough (Metalworker) mana for Ugin (or something else) has happened a lot of times. Also with Scarecrone you can EoT flip a Metalworker into play, untap, and generate the mana you need.

H. Grim Monolith. While the card is a lategame disaster to draw into, it balances the "slowness" of Cloudpost a bit. Also from Midgame on i try NOT to cast them and hold them for Metalworker mana, unless the situation requires me to have more mana the next turn. Grim Monolith is easily untapped with Cloupost mana. Thran Dynamo is a beautiful card, but potentially making us a turn slower in the early game is not a risk i am willing to take.

The rest is self-explanatory. Sorry for the long post of concoctions.

//Main 61 cards:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves

2 Scarecrone
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Sideboard 15 cards:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated

darkgh0st
06-02-2015, 11:00 PM
If you are having trouble using Hellkite's sweep active, that's an unusual situation. Usually, you are going to be using it for 1 or 2.

All is Dust left my list rather quickly. It's just not good enough.

Phyrexian Revoker in DnT. But its not too bad. Most of the time Steel Hellkite is a lock. I found a surprise for DnT (and applies to other decks as well) while playing around, Dismember. It just worked so great after they side out the moms and they think they got you after they Revoke your Hellkite. Then you swing with the Hellkite, Dismember their Revoker and blow up what you want. This fit the posted MUD-Stax decklist well.

Changes from the SB:
-3 Spellskite, +3 Dismember (4 seemed too much)



@Bobmans: I agree with you for a lot of things (not with the Scarecrone and Defense Grid). For the late game Monolith, they become Forgemaster food.

I am testing your posted land base on my combo list, which used to have the Cavern of Souls. Though, Cavern has won me lots of games with uncounterable Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil, or even 2nd turn Metalworker into explosive plays.

Bobmans
06-03-2015, 01:05 AM
@Bobmans: I agree with you for a lot of things (not with the Scarecrone and Defense Grid). For the late game Monolith, they become Forgemaster food.

I am testing your posted land base on my combo list, which used to have the Cavern of Souls. Though, Cavern has won me lots of games with uncounterable Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil, or even 2nd turn Metalworker into explosive plays.

Defense Grid, well i have to say that i must make a difference between the various countermagicbased decks.

Tempo like BUG, RUG, UWR: Defense Grid followed Chalice @ 1
Stoneblade: i'd say even. The danger lies in deathblade running AD. While Chalice @ 1 stops most cards, Defense Grid gains you early game advantage.
Trinisphere is basicly only working if you can stack taxing effects/remove mana sources.

Playing Mishra's Factory in a combo "mindset" might be dissappointing. Not sure tho. Like i said, i am shifting into a more controllish gameplay. Although Factory could help Forgemaster activation.

darkgh0st
06-03-2015, 10:38 PM
Has anybody else used a Wasteland on themselves just to avoid lethal from Price of Progress? Its like a Zuran Orb effect for two lands.

BTY
06-03-2015, 11:08 PM
Has anybody else used a Wasteland on themselves just to avoid lethal from Price of Progress? Its like a Zuran Orb effect for two lands.

Ya, at the very least you can wasteland targeting itself to save 2 damage. When Playing against Burn Wasteland has always been the second most important land that doesn't just produce mana, glimmerpost obviously being number 1.

Airwave
06-04-2015, 04:07 AM
Has anybody else used a Wasteland on themselves just to avoid lethal from Price of Progress? Its like a Zuran Orb effect for two lands.

Yup I did, more than once.

It never saved me though.... :rolleyes:

Airwave
06-04-2015, 05:01 AM
Any consideration to running haven of the spirit dragon? It gets back Ugin and the hellkites. I'm putting together a "different" list that I'm going to try out for a while. I've been playing regular 11-post MUD to great success at my LGS for a few months now so I want to try something different. Any thoughts on this:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Defense Grid
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Nin
2 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

I'm wondering if I should even run metalworker at this point. I don't know that 13 threats is enough either. I expect I'll have some number of ensnaring bridge in the 75 too. With all the lands that could be replayed from my GY (13 + factories if I use them as chump blockers) maybe I should have 3 crucibles too.

Probably just a pile but I'll give it a try once i get all the cards.

Hadn't thought about heaven of the spirit dragon until now, nice it brings back steel hellkite as well. I'm afraid I don't have any room for it though. My deck is very mana hungry and needs Wasteland to gain time.

I wouldn't remove metalworker from the above list, since you'll run into mana problems then probably. Especially without post-mana. It's a nice list with food for thought, but I feel there is a nonbo in there as well. Tangle Wire turns off Trinisphere...

darkgh0st
06-04-2015, 07:32 AM
@mgoldman: I have thought about it, having 4 Covetous Dragon, 4 Steel Hellkites, and some Ugins... Dragon Stompy style.

Bobmans
06-04-2015, 07:33 AM
@mgoldman: I have thought about it, having 4 Covetous Dragon, 4 Steel Hellkites, and some Ugins... Dragon Stompy style.

Be sure to include Wildfire aswell. [emoji12]

darkgh0st
06-04-2015, 09:32 AM
Sounds like good old Urza's block days.

Has anyone tried Apostle's Blessing as a sideboard card? It avoids StP and a good amount of removals.

EDIT: okay it was a bad idea when you are taxing... Usually, you can't protect your robots when they come to play cuz you wouldn't have enough mana to do so.

Ganfar
06-06-2015, 04:56 AM
Why are there many how play Platinum emperion over Platium Angel? Angel cost one more less and has flying. It stops also wincons without damage.

I see very little Batterskulls in the mud list here. I would play at least two. Cost 5 witch is a good curve between lode stone and Wurmcoil. If they just have creture rmovel it is easy to just plat Batterskull again. It has also lifelink to save your life.

Bobmans
06-06-2015, 05:05 AM
Why are there many how play Platinum emperion over Platium Angel? Angel cost one more less and has flying. It stops also wincons without damage.


The problem i have with Platinum Angel that it does not actually stop the ticker. If an opponent keeps beating you below 0 OR creates an alternative wincon, the only problem he has is getting rid of the Angel. While Platinum Emperion does not stop alternative wincons, it does "freeze" the game, hence it prevents your opponent from getting any further. So when he finally has a solution for the Emperion you still have your remaining life, thus not instantly lose. Also i have found that alternative wincons to be quite rare and mostly that involves being complete decked (most often Jace). While flying does matter (grab Steel Hellkite for flyers) i have found that Platinum Emperion is better at doing the job.

Ganfar
06-06-2015, 05:13 AM
The problem i have with Patinum Angel that i doens't not actually stop the ticker. If an opponent keeps beating you below 0 OR creates an alternative wincon, the only problem he has is getting rid of the Angel. While platinum Emprion does not stop alternative wincons, it does "freeze" the game, hence it prevents your opponent from getting any further. So when he finnaly has a solution for the Emperion you still have your remaining life, thus not instantly lose. Also i have found that alternative wincons to be quite rare and mostly that involves being complete decked. While flying does matter (grab Steel Hellkite for flyers) i have found that Platinum Emporion is better at doing the job.

If you put it that way I understand why. He is a 8/8 also.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-06-2015, 10:12 PM
I've decided to go deep blue just for the card draw . I want as good card selection as my opponents playing Ponder / Brainstorm but I want to pay between 2-3 mana for them because of Chalice of the Void . I'm convinced this is the way to go . I'm wondering what you think the best blue draw spells are and why .

Dream Cache -- This is #1 for me. It's a Brainstorm that allows you to bottom the two cards instead of topping them. This allows you to Brainstorm into land drops, recover from Wasteland, find threats, and bury extra copies of trinisphere and stuff under your library, or put Blightsteel away to tutor him.

Standstill -- This is really powerful. I think it's worth including because in many of my games all my opponent is doing is Pondering or Brainstorming because their land counts are so low unless they play a turn 1 delver. It's more of a later game card.

Plea For Power -- Remember this? It's an Ancestral Recall for 3U . I think this costs 1 mana too much since getting to the 4th land drop is a bit tricky and it wastes a turn.

Meditate -- I considered this one as well . Burning through a turn is ok because we're winning with Forgemaster Hellkites and Wurmcoils. I think this is better than it may first appear.

Telling Time -- This seems just the card for the job.

Omen -- Not on MTGO.. just paper.. I like that this shuffles and I think I prefer this one.

I would slot 8 of these in the deck and never look back because I think you could even cut down to 20 lands if the choices are 2cmc. Maybe just Omen / Telling Time if you're playing paper.

Admiral_Arzar
06-07-2015, 12:56 AM
Why are there many how play Platinum emperion over Platium Angel? Angel cost one more less and has flying. It stops also wincons without damage.

I see very little Batterskulls in the mud list here. I would play at least two. Cost 5 witch is a good curve between lode stone and Wurmcoil. If they just have creture rmovel it is easy to just plat Batterskull again. It has also lifelink to save your life.

I used to play 4 Batterskulls in the 75 when I played non-forgemaster/midrange lists. In the Cloudpost ramp lists that are common today I prefer Wurmcoil Engine and other big stuff, especially since there's much less aggro and you can't make Batterskull uncounterable with Cavern of Souls.

I play Platinum Empyrion over Platinum Angel because Platinum Empyrion is a Golem which is a FAR better creature type concerning use of the aforementioned Cavern. Metalworker and Forgemaster are constructs, while Lodestone, Sundering Titan, Blightsteel, and Empyrion are all Golems.


EDIT: @Troll_ov_Grimness - I feel like adding blue for mediocre card draw that barely sees play in Modern isn't the way we want to go. If you must splash a color for card draw, splash red for Daretti who is legit insane. That way you at least get to play Welder and potentially splash Blood Moon out of the board.

Avez
06-07-2015, 04:44 PM
Does anybody have a good sideboard card or a plan against Lands? I'm playing 12-post MUD and I'm feeling that the matchup is awful. They can waste my lands away every turn (Wasteland+Life from the Loam) and I don't know which is the right way to start the game: Chalice at 0 (Mox Diamond) or 1 (Explore, other stuff).

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-07-2015, 05:27 PM
Daretti is too inconsistent. The problem is when you get him into play he easily gets attacked by delver and batterskull , and you have no way to defend him because the deck lacks removal. I've tried him and I'd rather play Goblin Welder with Faithless Looting, which isn't any form of card advantage . Daretti is just 1 cast of Faithless Looting most of the time .

and I fail to see how cards like Omen or Telling Time are bad it is clear to me that they are extremely good. they just cost 2 instead of 1.

Mockingbird
06-07-2015, 05:29 PM
Does anybody have a good sideboard card or a plan against Lands? I'm playing 12-post MUD and I'm feeling that the matchup is awful. They can waste my lands away every turn (Wasteland+Life from the Loam) and I don't know which is the right way to start the game: Chalice at 0 (Mox Diamond) or 1 (Explore, other stuff).

Tormod's Crypt is the best answer we have available because Lands boils down to graveyard shenanigans. You can also use Surgical Extraction and Relic of Progenitus as other hate cards, but they each have their issues (CMC=1). There's also Leyline of the Void, but that has the same problem as all Leylines played outside of their colors.

Chalice hits more cards on 1 than 0, so I would recommend that. Two would also be great because it keeps them from recurring lands through Life from the Loam (although they can still feed it into Chalice to keep dredging).

Biggest thing to be wary of is Krosan Grip because they kill everything in our deck except planeswalkers (Ugin is not strong in this match-up, and Karn... eh low creatures may mean he has more time to tear into their hand and board, but I'm iffy)

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-07-2015, 05:38 PM
I've cast Chalice for 0 against lands and my opponent lacked any green mana for a long time.

kohulk
06-08-2015, 12:48 AM
If I'm not mistaken, against Lands one of the most used hate card is Tsabo's Web.

Bobmans
06-08-2015, 03:34 AM
MUD has 3 top16 appearances in SCG this weekend. Seems that things are looking good for MUD right now. Will MUD be a serious contender for GP Lille?

keys
06-08-2015, 06:36 AM
MUD has 3 top16 appearances in SCG this weekend. Seems that things are looking good for MUD right now. Will MUD be a serious contender for GP Lille?

All three were Cloudpost based (8 Locus)

Each played the "core" 28...
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

Plus 1 of...
Steel Hellkite
Spine of Ish Sah
Blightsteel Colossus
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

On average...
3.66 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3.33 Trinisphere
2.66 Wurmcoil Engine
1.66 Sundering Titan
1.33 Coercive Portal
1.33 Lightning Greaves
0.66 Staff of Domination
0.33 Batterskull
0.33 Trading Post
0.33 Myr Battlesphere
0.33 Duplicant
0.33 Platinum Angel
0.33 Karn Liberated

3.33 City of Traitors
3.33 Wasteland
2.66 Cavern of Souls
2.00 Vesuva
0.33 Thespian's Stage
0.33 Tower of the Magistrate

A few observations I found interesting:
Zero Platinum Emperion, but one Platinum Angel.
Only 1 Ugin per deck, when many on here seem to be sporting 2 at a minimum. Karn showed up once.
1.33 Coercive Portal per deck, and zero Staff of Nin.
The manabases were fairly consistent, with Cavern and Wasteland the preferred utility lands.

--

I think the current maindeck template for Cloudpost MUD looks like this...

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3-4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2-3 Wurmcoil Engine
1-2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion / Platinum Angel

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Trinisphere

1-3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon / Karn Liberated

4-5 "Utility" / "Flex Slots": Lightning Greaves, Spine of Ish Sah, Coercive Portal, Staff of Domination, Staff of Nin, Trading Post, Crucible of Worlds, Batterskull

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3-4 City of Traitors
2-4 Wasteland
2-3 Cavern of Souls
2-3 Vesuva

darkgh0st
06-08-2015, 07:26 AM
Thanks for the update guys. This helps in deck building.

Ganymedical
06-08-2015, 09:03 AM
I read this thread quite a long time and i would like to take a try on Tezzerets Gambit.
With Tanglewire, Chalice, Ugin and maybe Contagious Engine (sb) this carddraw for 3 Mana and 2 life could realy shine. in the case of ugin, you could use his ultimate the round after he hits the board.

With Metalworker on the field Tezzerets Gambit is nearly free for 3 mana if you have the mana without tapping the worker.

Synergy with:

1. Chalice set on 1 could be pushed to 2 if you want to play a second one.

2. It increases the duration of Tangle Wire.

3. It enables a fast ugin Ultimate (if necessary).

Your thoughts on this?

regards Ganymedical

(nameless one)
06-08-2015, 10:04 AM
--

I think the current maindeck template for Cloudpost MUD looks like this...

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3-4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2-3 Wurmcoil Engine
1-2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion / Platinum Angel

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Trinisphere

1-3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon / Karn Liberated

4-5 "Utility" / "Flex Slots": Lightning Greaves, Spine of Ish Sah, Coercive Portal, Staff of Domination, Staff of Nin, Trading Post, Crucible of Worlds, Batterskull

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3-4 City of Traitors
2-4 Wasteland
2-3 Cavern of Souls
2-3 Vesuva

I will be putting this on the Primer

Ganfar
06-08-2015, 11:58 AM
Tormod's Crypt is the best answer we have available because Lands boils down to graveyard shenanigans. You can also use Surgical Extraction and Relic of Progenitus as other hate cards, but they each have their issues (CMC=1). There's also Leyline of the Void, but that has the same problem as all Leylines played outside of their colors.

Chalice hits more cards on 1 than 0, so I would recommend that. Two would also be great because it keeps them from recurring lands through Life from the Loam (although they can still feed it into Chalice to keep dredging).

Biggest thing to be wary of is Krosan Grip because they kill everything in our deck except planeswalkers (Ugin is not strong in this match-up, and Karn... eh low creatures may mean he has more time to tear into their hand and board, but I'm iffy)

Chalice on 2 is good. Lock out life from the loam.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-10-2015, 10:54 AM
I still stand by Lodestone Golem being obsolete because it hits the table too late and isn't any combat advantage over the heavily played threats in the format like Delver and Batterskull. I find Lodestone Golem too inconsistent. I don't think increasing the mana by 1 of your opponents spells makes a dent in a format where Sinkhole isn't even a good card.

I tried discussing this online, it'd be a green splash with Cavern Of Souls instead of Wasteland in Posts MUD...

Conclave Naturalists - 4G
When this enters the battlefield you may destroy target artifact or enchantment.
4 / 4

I really like this. It can be really hard to get around Batterskull . I really insist that that is the card to beat with this deck. I realize that on the surface, Wurmcoil is a better card, but becuase your opponent can bounce Batterskull and easily stoneforge it, gain life, and swing with cards like Delver, I'm not convinced that MUD can be played without an answer to it. I think a 4/4 that reads "kill batterskull" when it enters the battelfield and is able to have combat advantage over Delver is really significant for this deck.

There are other artifact removal enter play effects but they're not "you may", this deck being all artifacts...

Bobmans
06-10-2015, 11:09 AM
I still stand by Lodestone Golem being obsolete because it hits the table too late and isn't any combat advantage over the heavily played threats in the format like Delver and Batterskull. I find Lodestone Golem too inconsistent. I don't think increasing the mana by 1 of your opponents spells makes a dent in a format where Sinkhole isn't even a good card.


I disagree with this statement. While Lodestone Golem can be very mediocre against certain matchups/boardstates, he can also win games against say Miracles or Combo. The thing with the Golem is, you have to know when it is good or not.

Splashing a color for MUD is in the current meta a wrong choice, because that forces you to drop the Cloudpost manabase. This manabase is currently the sole reason for MUD's performance and consistancy. Next to this it really creates value out of Ugin and makes it harder for oppenents to prevent Ugin from landing eventually. Lodestone Golem forces opponents to respond and thus trading resources which actually benefits creating a boardstate for Ugin (or Forgemaster). If Golem can't be answered the road to victory comes closer.

BlackHawkX9
06-10-2015, 12:52 PM
MUD has 3 top16 appearances in SCG this weekend. Seems that things are looking good for MUD right now. Will MUD be a serious contender for GP Lille?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85814 I placed top 16 at the Columbus IQ. I love MUD more and more when I play it. My 2 losses of the day were to junk that knight of reliquary'd for all 4 wastelands both games and I just couldn't establish a mana base, and my second loss was to brad nelson on omni show. Omni show is a terrible match up, trinisphere buys you a few turns, but not much else.

For those who are having trouble with Rg lands, they can't do anything with a pithing needle on stage and chalice for 2. I beat lands 2 different rounds. Game one is weird. But once you needle and chalice at 2, they have to burn all k-grips on everything else to stop you from winning, and they don't physically have enough grips to keep up. 1 of the games, I had 3 chalices out, all on 2.

9 rounds, beat 2 miracles, 2 rg lands, grixas walker control, shardless bug, and gw enchantress.

Coercive portal is worth its weight in gold

Stephen, the 9th place mud player was running welder mud before, and I talked him into post mud. Both of us agree that hands down coercive portal is required somewhere in the 75. It solves your top deck mode problem.

mgoldman
06-10-2015, 02:47 PM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85814 I placed top 16 at the Columbus IQ. I love MUD more and more when I play it. My 2 losses of the day were to junk that knight of reliquary'd for all 4 wastelands both games and I just couldn't establish a mana base, and my second loss was to brad nelson on omni show. Omni show is a terrible match up, trinisphere buys you a few turns, but not much else.

For those who are having trouble with Rg lands, they can't do anything with a pithing needle on stage and chalice for 2. I beat lands 2 different rounds. Game one is weird. But once you needle and chalice at 2, they have to burn all k-grips on everything else to stop you from winning, and they don't physically have enough grips to keep up. 1 of the games, I had 3 chalices out, all on 2.

9 rounds, beat 2 miracles, 2 rg lands, grixas walker control, shardless bug, and gw enchantress.

Coercive portal is worth its weight in gold

Stephen, the 9th place mud player was running welder mud before, and I talked him into post mud. Both of us agree that hands down coercive portal is required somewhere in the 75. It solves your top deck mode problem.

What decks would you side in the 2nd portal, and under what circumstances would you side it out? I picked a pair up a while back but have only played them once.

BlackHawkX9
06-10-2015, 03:39 PM
What decks would you side in the 2nd portal, and under what circumstances would you side it out? I picked a pair up a while back but have only played them once.

The main deck portal only gets boarded out if I'm against a deck that can kill me turn 1-2. Like combo elves, storm, belcher, omni-show, etc it would go out. The second portal in the board comes in against most tempo decks. They spend so many spells and resources hating on my lock pieces, that both our hands get low, and I slam a portal or 2, and I win that race, because they are out of cards to keep up. The 2 portal is especially important for anything with discard, bug, grixis, junk, etc.

Silverflame
06-11-2015, 12:14 AM
I really like this. It can be really hard to get around Batterskull . I really insist that that is the card to beat with this deck. I realize that on the surface, Wurmcoil is a better card, but becuase your opponent can bounce Batterskull and easily stoneforge it, gain life, and swing with cards like Delver, I'm not convinced that MUD can be played without an answer to it. I think a 4/4 that reads "kill batterskull" when it enters the battelfield and is able to have combat advantage over Delver is really significant for this deck.

There are other artifact removal enter play effects but they're not "you may", this deck being all artifacts...

Try playing Tower of the Magistrate. It unequips the creatures and kills the token for 1 mana. Just hold it in your hand until the opponent casts stoneforge to bait the skull.

Bobmans
06-11-2015, 02:45 AM
Try playing Tower of the Magistrate. It unequips the creatures and kills the token for 1 mana. Just hold it in your hand until the opponent casts stoneforge to bait the skull.
Also, there is:
Spine of Ish Sah destroy's the equip.
Wurmcoil Engine races it.
Steel Hellkite races the equip and destroy's the token or just detroy's the equip.
Karn Liberated exiles the equip.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon exiles the token for -0.
Phyrexian Revoker locks it to the battlefield, removing the token renders it useless until the Revoker is answered.
And the 3 big golem's tanks it.

So with standard solutions you can make it pretty far against Batterskull and friends. The only thing i find really scary against decks running white: Swords to Plowsares... i always find rest in resolving Chalice @ 1.

Airwave
06-11-2015, 04:18 AM
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85814 I placed top 16 at the Columbus IQ. I love MUD more and more when I play it. My 2 losses of the day were to junk that knight of reliquary'd for all 4 wastelands both games and I just couldn't establish a mana base, and my second loss was to brad nelson on omni show. Omni show is a terrible match up, trinisphere buys you a few turns, but not much else.

For those who are having trouble with Rg lands, they can't do anything with a pithing needle on stage and chalice for 2. I beat lands 2 different rounds. Game one is weird. But once you needle and chalice at 2, they have to burn all k-grips on everything else to stop you from winning, and they don't physically have enough grips to keep up. 1 of the games, I had 3 chalices out, all on 2.

9 rounds, beat 2 miracles, 2 rg lands, grixas walker control, shardless bug, and gw enchantress.

Coercive portal is worth its weight in gold

Stephen, the 9th place mud player was running welder mud before, and I talked him into post mud. Both of us agree that hands down coercive portal is required somewhere in the 75. It solves your top deck mode problem.

Thanks for your reply.

Question: In your next tournament, would you include more cards against Omni show, since it pops up more and more. For instance, x Thorn of Amethyst in sideboard?

Totally agree on Coercive Portal, in quite some matches card advantage is the road to victory.

BlackHawkX9
06-11-2015, 06:06 AM
Thanks for your reply.

Question: In your next tournament, would you include more cards against Omni show, since it pops up more and more. For instance, x Thorn of Amethyst in sideboard?

Totally agree on Coercive Portal, in quite some matches card advantage is the road to victory.

Yes, I am considering my options against omni show that might also have a useful purpose in other matches too. Thorn of amethyst is being considered as well as uba mask, and even considering a second staff of domination in the sideboard to try and combo faster than them.

Anyone have any suggestions on sideboard tech against omni-show?

Bobmans
06-11-2015, 06:42 AM
Yes, I am considering my options against omni show that might also have a useful purpose in other matches too. Thorn of amethyst is being considered as well as uba mask, and even considering a second staff of domination in the sideboard to try and combo faster than them.

Anyone have any suggestions on sideboard tech against omni-show?
Preamptive smash the board with Chalice @ 1, Lodestone Golem, Trinisphere and co. This slows them down from starting the combo while giving us time to develop. Thorn of Amethyst or Sphere of Resistence are all options. All these effects stops Omniscience out of SnT from blowing up in your face. Hold back a Spine of Ish Sah or Kuldotha Forgemaster to take out the Emrakul if it show up under SnT while dropping those of that same SnT. Forgemaster will be active on your turn and at that point having a total of 3 artifacts shouldn't be that hard. If they drop Omniscience you can still find an answer with Forgemaster. Uba Mask or Ensnaring Bridge all are nice to. The diffucult part is getting all effects on the table to completely stop Omni. We do have the tools to fight, sequencing is key (and know when to mulligan).

meso94
06-11-2015, 08:08 AM
Hi there, I'm new to this deck and format...I'm very interested in this deck cause I'm searching for the correct choice to build..
I have some questions for you, I hope you will answer me if possible:
- why I should play this list and what are best and worst mu?? How it is positioned in the modern meta?
- what is the best configuration of the deck today??

Thanks a lot for your answers and I hope to participate as soon as possible to the discussion

Bobmans
06-11-2015, 08:48 AM
Hi there, I'm new to this deck and format...I'm very interested in this deck cause I'm searching for the correct choice to build..
I have some questions for you, I hope you will answer me if possible:
- why I should play this list and what are best and worst mu?? How it is positioned in the modern meta?
- what is the best configuration of the deck today??

Thanks a lot for your answers and I hope to participate as soon as possible to the discussion
Of Maverick, NicFit and MUD, MUD is probably safest to play in the current meta. But DnT is probably the most efficient. Also Maverick is pretty solid and tweakable. NicFit is most difficult to play well. If you are new to the format it won't matter to much what you'll play. Learning how the rest of the format plays against like is your bigger worrie. Knowledge is power my friend, just pick a deck with the most appeal, don't worrie about winrate and play play play...

darkgh0st
06-11-2015, 09:31 AM
Yes, I am considering my options against omni show that might also have a useful purpose in other matches too. Thorn of amethyst is being considered as well as uba mask, and even considering a second staff of domination in the sideboard to try and combo faster than them.

Anyone have any suggestions on sideboard tech against omni-show?

Congratz for placing quite high!

Thorn is quite strong. I tried it both on my stax list with 4 sphere of resistance, and a generic mud combo list, but hard to find spots in the sideboard.

Edit:
@meso94: The first post in this forum should help you a lot. And if you're really interested, read the rest of the 133 pages, as MUD can be built in many different ways and it will show you what are the weaknesses and strengths.

Airwave
06-11-2015, 03:07 PM
Yes, I am considering my options against omni show that might also have a useful purpose in other matches too. Thorn of amethyst is being considered as well as uba mask, and even considering a second staff of domination in the sideboard to try and combo faster than them.

Anyone have any suggestions on sideboard tech against omni-show?

Uba Mask is nice indeed, although siding out staff of domination would be logical in this case I guess, since it destroys our own combo as well. What I don't like about it is the fact that Dig Through Time doesn't draw card but "selects" two cards... argh :rolleyes: So I guess they will search for an answer using Dig and Cunning Wish although it does stop the graveyard from filling up so quickly.

I'm probably going for Thorn of Amethyst (2 or 3), since it will also be good against Storm, Miracles and all these other decks filled with sorceries and instants :cool:

BlackHawkX9
06-11-2015, 03:48 PM
Uba Mask is nice indeed, although siding out staff of domination would be logical in this case I guess, since it destroys our own combo as well. What I don't like about it is the fact that Dig Through Time doesn't draw card but "selects" two cards... argh :rolleyes: So I guess they will search for an answer using Dig and Cunning Wish although it does stop the graveyard from filling up so quickly.

I'm probably going for Thorn of Amethyst (2 or 3), since it will also be good against Storm, Miracles and all these other decks filled with sorceries and instants :cool:

I'm thinking thorn is the way to go. Uba mask is good, and disrupts them alot. Uba mask however doesn't make staff useless. You could still make infinite life. I never board out staff of domination, it steals too many wins out of nowhere.

darkgh0st
06-11-2015, 09:07 PM
@BlackhawkX9: When do you use the 25th land in your sideboard?

Airwave
06-12-2015, 05:20 AM
I'm thinking thorn is the way to go. Uba mask is good, and disrupts them alot. Uba mask however doesn't make staff useless. You could still make infinite life. I never board out staff of domination, it steals too many wins out of nowhere.

It will work if you have three artifacts in hand but since you're hand isn't gaining any cards anymore it's hard to achieve this if Uba lands. Anyway, this is just speculation. Staff is great that's for sure, so I guess Thorn is the way to go indeed. I'll put them in for GP Lille.

BlackHawkX9
06-12-2015, 06:00 AM
@BlackhawkX9: When do you use the 25th land in your sideboard?

I bring in the wasteland and the crucible of worlds together against any deck that I'm concerned about getting wastelanded out, or against lands. Having the extra wasteland to answer their stage, depths, burnwillows, chasm, maze of ith, port, etc is really handy. I find myself bringing them in against most of the tri-colored mana bases that don't use death rite shaman. I was running 2 crucible for a bit, but that felt too clunky.

BlackHawkX9
06-12-2015, 09:29 AM
It will work if you have three artifacts in hand but since you're hand isn't gaining any cards anymore it's hard to achieve this if Uba lands. Anyway, this is just speculation. Staff is great that's for sure, so I guess Thorn is the way to go indeed. I'll put them in for GP Lille.

Very good point. I never really considered if i don't have the 3 artifacts, then I don't really have a way to get more artifacts in hand. Thorn > uba mask.

bruizar
06-12-2015, 02:01 PM
Tomorrow I will bring a super scrubby, crazy brew to a tournament. I will probably fail horrendously, but I don't care. I'm looking to validate certain thoughts I have about acceleration and mana bases in the context of MUD. Wish me luck :-)

Bobmans
06-12-2015, 02:06 PM
Tomorrow I will bring a super scrubby, crazy brew to a tournament. I will probably fail horrendously, but I don't care. I'm looking to validate certain thoughts I have about acceleration and mana bases in the context of MUD. Wish me luck :-)
Ah going to Amsterdam. Good luck and have fun. Be sure to post a report if you found it interesting enough.

BlackHawkX9
06-12-2015, 02:11 PM
Tomorrow I will bring a super scrubby, crazy brew to a tournament. I will probably fail horrendously, but I don't care. I'm looking to validate certain thoughts I have about acceleration and mana bases in the context of MUD. Wish me luck :-)

List?

(nameless one)
06-12-2015, 06:11 PM
Tomorrow I will bring a super scrubby, crazy brew to a tournament. I will probably fail horrendously, but I don't care. I'm looking to validate certain thoughts I have about acceleration and mana bases in the context of MUD. Wish me luck :-)



Good luck. Would you be okay if you post a report after, whether you do well or not?

bruizar
06-13-2015, 07:19 AM
Quick post during the event, the list is from memory, will post sideboard later.

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mox Opal
1x Academy Ruins
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Metalworker
3x Grim Monolith
3x Voltaic Key
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Prototype Portal
4x Smokestack
4x Ugin
2x Karn Liberated
2x Blood Moon
3x Tangle Wire

I'm now in the break (lille trial).

Round 1: Waterfalls RUG Cascade 2-1 win

Game 1
I head of with artifact land + opal, second turn artifact land into worker.
He plays brainstorm hymn to tourach and agent into visions, but I play another metalworker and Karn. He does not have FoW, and +4'ing.
He eventually has a board of 2 Agents and 2 Deathrite Shaman, I resolve 2 lodestone golems and he dies.

Game 2
He opens with Thoughtseize on my Blood Moon.
I play Artifact land, Mox Opal, Voltaic Key.
He plays needle on Metalworker (which doesnt work because its a mana ability) and a deathrite shaman
I cast a Whipflare (bad board decision as he has agent and baleful strix), but get rid of his Deathrite Shaman nonetheless.
He plays Hymn to Tourach and pick Smokestack and Metalworker.
I try to resolve another Blood Moon, but he has the FoW and I die.

Game 3
I open with Great Furnace (have 2 and a tomb in hand)
He wastelands my furnace
He plays a deathrite shaman
I play my second furnace, and follow up with ancient tomb + blood moon.
From this point on I basically trample him. There are 2 lands in graveyards, he uses one to resolve a goyf.
Next turn I play a metalworker, and then i follow up with 3 lodestone golems. He Fows 1, blocks one with tarmogoyf (goyf was 4/5), and the other one goes the distance.
I also play Prototype portal with a Smokestack.

Round 2: Burn 2-0 win
Game 1
Deck check! He has 2 mountains too much and I win game 1

Game 2
He opens with a fetch mountain grim lavamancer on the play.
I play Tomb, Monolith, Key, Lodestone Golem
He gets rid of my golem and burns me out, but turn 4 I resolve an Ugin and shoot his lavamancer
He price of progresses me from 12 to 6, he shoots me again to 3, I keep ramping Ugin and ultimate gaining 7 life going to 10. I aend up drawing pretty useless cards (5 mana sources that I dont want to play because of price of progress) but I also get a smokestack, a metal worker and a prototype portal.
I slide the Smokestack under the Prototype Portal and lock him out with Smokestack tokens. When I cast a Lodestone Golem and he has 1 card in hand with nothing on the board, he scoops.

bruizar
06-13-2015, 10:21 AM
Split for top 8 but cant play it out as i wont be going to lille.

darkgh0st
06-13-2015, 11:16 AM
@bruizar: Interesting build. More like a complete lockdown stax with lots of options and mana ramps. Must have been lots of fun playing it.

bruizar
06-13-2015, 12:20 PM
Yes, it was a blast to play. Here is the rest of the tournament:

Round 3: BUG Delver 1-2 loss
Game 1:
I mulligan game 1. He opens with deathrite shaman and gitaxian probe. He plays a turn 2 delver into brainstorm to set up the flip. Eventually I find an ancient tomb and cast prototype portal imprinting seat of the synod, upon which I use voltaic key to make extra land. His board in the end was 1 flipped, 1 unflipped delver and 2 deathrite shamans (1 with summoning sickness). I'm on 8 life, he swings for 4, and I am one mana short of playing my Ugin without Ancient Tomb. I decide to play Ugin anyway, hoping that he misses his deathrite activation, but he doesn't and I die before I can blow up his entire board.

I boarded in my third blood moon, plus some other stuff.

Game 2:
I have 2 great furnace, 2 blood moons, and an ancient tomb in my opening hand. I open with Great Furnace which meets wasteland. I play Ancient Tomb and he Spell Pierces my Blood Moon. He ponders and probes, but I'm able to resolve my second Blood Moon and he scoops.

Game 3:
Game 3 he's durdling a lot, and I think I can set up a lock with Prototype Portal. I slide Lodestone Golem under it, since he let it resolve, thinking that he wont be able to beat lodestone golem every turn. He surprises me with Pithing Needle and I die.

Game 1 was so close that I felt that I should have won it. I was one life or one mana short of resolving my ugin in his counterless hand and would have killed his entire board, bolt him, and ultimate with Ugin, regaining some life.


Round 4: Reanimate
Game 1:
I open with artifact land into voltaic key. He opens with fetch into faithless looting, dumping tidespout tyrant and grislebrand
I follow up with ancient tomb into metalworker, he forces my metalworker.
On his second turn, he exhumes grislebrand and I bring back my metalworker :-).
He draws 7 cards. I tap metalworker for a zillion mana and I play prototype portal which he forces. I think play smokestack.
I get to put one soot counter on my smokestack but he reanimates tidespout tyrant, and bounces my smokestack. I die.

Game 2:
I misplay pretty badly here. I'm on the play and I open with Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Mox Opal, Blood Moon and Phyrexian Metamorph. I play Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith and Mox Opal and pass the turn. I should have tapped Grim Monolith, played the Phyrexian Metamorph copying Grim Monolith to enable metalcraft, then tap the metamorph and the mox opal to cast blood moon on the play.

His first turn thoughtseizes my blood moon, and he follows up with another thoughtseize for my business spells. He force of wills my Lodestone Golem, and careful studies. I play Lodestone Golem. He animate dead's Grislebrand, but he's on 14 life. He draws 7 cards and taps out. I play Phyrexian Metamorph copying his grislebrand, he has force of will, but lodestone golem blocks his ability to cast it. I draw 7 cards and he plays Pithing Needle on my (and his, but he's on 7 so whatever) Grislebrand. He can't attack, because my Griselbrand is 7/7 and his Griselbrand is 6/7. On my turn I attack him with Griselbrand, he is forced to block, he gains 6 life going to 13. I did this because he did not have enough mana to cast both careful study/looting and a reanimation turn in 1 turn. I win.

Game 3:
I open a hand with 2x lodestone golem, 1 blood moon, 1 city of traitors, 1 ancient tomb, 1 great furnace.

He thought seizes me and takes my Blood Moon.
I play Great Furnace, he plays brainstorm.
I play Grim Monolith into Lodestone Golem which he dazes.
Then, I resolve another Lodestone Golem which sticks.
I think Phyrexian Metamorph the Lodestone Golem and give beats.
By this time he didn't have any creatures to reanimate in his graveyard so he reanimates my Lodestone Golem, there are now 3 lodestone golems in play.
There is a stand off, he's on 15 and he wants to attack into my lodestone golems but I will not block and alpha strike him instead if he does so. Meanwhile, I don't attack him yet, because he's super mana screwed under 4 golems. When I find another metamorph, i copy the golem again, and alpha strike him dead.

Round 5: Omniscience - Intentional draw into top 8
We play it out, I win the first game, but lose the other 2 games through SNT -> Omniscience -> Emrakul.

This is the exact list I played:

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mox Opal
1x Academy Ruins
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Metalworker
3x Grim Monolith
3x Voltaic Key
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Prototype Portal
4x Smokestack
4x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Karn Liberated
2x Blood Moon
3x Tangle Wire

SIdeboard:
2 Dack Fayden
2 Goblin Welder
2 Pyroblast
4 Whipflare
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blood Moon
2 Sphere of Resistance

The sideboard was pretty terrible. The blood moon, however, was golden!

bruizar
06-14-2015, 04:51 AM
So, my purpose was to test the performance of an artifact land / mox opal based manabase as well as prototype portal as a pseudo Thran Turbine that doubles as a threat. More specifically, I had 4 Ugin and 2 Karns in the list to test the limits of the mana curve without the full set of sol-land or the inevitability of the 12 post manabase. Through out the tournament I played every card in the deck, but I did stumble upon the 8 CC of Ugin at a critical point, so there are definitely limits.

I really enjoyed Mox Opal as well as Darksteel Citadel for being a wasteland-proof first land drop and a free 'exploration'. As you guys will know by now, I have problems letting go my colored sideboard options in MUD, so the addition of colored lands made me more comfortable playing the deck. Especially Blood Moon was a game-winning card several times. The super-type rule with Blood Moon is nice because you get to keep metalcraft with basic artifact mountains.

Prototype Portal was sometimes really good, particularly if I have an active metalworker or when I could imprint artifact land on it. Otherwise, it was incredibly slow as a threat. The deck should be tuned better for Prototype Portal if that card remains in the 75. For instance, imprinting a Tormod's Crypt against graveyard decks is very strong, but you need to be able to ramp to 4 mana quickly. The deck I played was pretty bad, but I piloted it better than my opponent's piloted their decks. I hardly made any mistakes and it shows that you can take a pile and still win against a net-deck environment.

Although I do attest that at this moment the colorless post variant is by far the dominant decklist and recommend anyone to play the most competitive build, I will continue to test colored fringe variations of MUD to contribute / explore the limits of our archetype so that it may evolve in the future.

Airwave
06-15-2015, 04:49 AM
So, my purpose was to test the performance of an artifact land / mox opal based manabase as well as prototype portal as a pseudo Thran Turbine that doubles as a threat. More specifically, I had 4 Ugin and 2 Karns in the list to test the limits of the mana curve without the full set of sol-land or the inevitability of the 12 post manabase. Through out the tournament I played every card in the deck, but I did stumble upon the 8 CC of Ugin at a critical point, so there are definitely limits.

I really enjoyed Mox Opal as well as Darksteel Citadel for being a wasteland-proof first land drop and a free 'exploration'. As you guys will know by now, I have problems letting go my colored sideboard options in MUD, so the addition of colored lands made me more comfortable playing the deck. Especially Blood Moon was a game-winning card several times. The super-type rule with Blood Moon is nice because you get to keep metalcraft with basic artifact mountains.

Prototype Portal was sometimes really good, particularly if I have an active metalworker or when I could imprint artifact land on it. Otherwise, it was incredibly slow as a threat. The deck should be tuned better for Prototype Portal if that card remains in the 75. For instance, imprinting a Tormod's Crypt against graveyard decks is very strong, but you need to be able to ramp to 4 mana quickly. The deck I played was pretty bad, but I piloted it better than my opponent's piloted their decks. I hardly made any mistakes and it shows that you can take a pile and still win against a net-deck environment.

Although I do attest that at this moment the colorless post variant is by far the dominant decklist and recommend anyone to play the most competitive build, I will continue to test colored fringe variations of MUD to contribute / explore the limits of our archetype so that it may evolve in the future.

Thanks! Really interesting to read :smile:

(nameless one)
06-16-2015, 09:12 AM
I think if you're gonna splash for red, you might as well play Welder or Daretti.

As for more lockdown Cloudpost builds, I think Winter Orb could be really good against the Midrange matchup which this deck usually has a hard time. The deck doesn't really get affected by Winter Orb (if you lower your curve) because Cloudposts could produce 3+ mana. I can also see Winter Orb shine in MUD that uses artifact mana acceleration.

bruizar
06-16-2015, 01:06 PM
I brought 2 welders in the sideboard but never really needed them that day. I expected to run into more spell pierce for which I could use welder, especially in conjunction with all the artifact land I played.

Perhaps you may not have seen it, but notably absent in my deck list was Chalice of the Void. I forgot to mention it, but I just wanted to try out and see for myself whether Chalice of the Void was REALLY the card that makes the archetype tick. It was an (intentional) mistake not to bring Chalice of the Void but apparently the raw strength of the deck and a little bit of luck made up for it.

I think I violated every single deck building rule for this archetype in one deck and managed to top 8 with it :-) Hypothesis confirmed.

(nameless one)
06-17-2015, 12:09 AM
Well, when I used to play the comboesque Welder build, I didn't run Chalices in the main. Instead I relied on Tangle Wires to disrupt my opponent. I did have Chalice and Trinisphere on the side for certain matchups.

Bobmans
06-17-2015, 05:46 AM
I know people are set on playing Coercive Portal as a 1 of 2 off, but i feel that Staff of Nin's timmy ability is more imprtant here dus to being able to take out Revoker, Clique, Snapcaster, Pyromancer, etc.. so i am considering to run 2 staffs on the board for mu's where they matter as much a Portal would matter. What do you guys think?

BlackHawkX9
06-17-2015, 06:07 AM
I know people are set on playing Coercive Portal as a 1 of 2 off, but i feel that Staff of Nin's timmy ability is more imprtant here dus to being able to take out Revoker, Clique, Snapcaster, Pyromancer, etc.. so i am considering to run 2 staffs on the board for mu's where they matter as much a Portal would matter. What do you guys think?

I agree that the damage ability from staff of nin has been handy to get through some dudes, or even damage straight to their face, is really handy. Its been making me debate running either a 1 and 1 split in the full 75, or even bumping up to a 2 and 1 split for portal and staff. . Either way, the main point of these cards are for card advantage, and portal can more efficiently come down faster. So, your card advantage puts you on big angry uncounterable cavern of souls fatties, to just overpower these weenies.

Also, staff of nin makes a very lackluster forgemaster target, as it doesn't apply enough pressure by itself to justify the sacrifice of 3 other artifacts, most times, in those matches.

Bobmans
06-17-2015, 09:32 AM
I agree that the damage ability from staff of nin has been handy to get through some dudes, or even damage straight to their face, is really handy. Its been making me debate running either a 1 and 1 split in the full 75, or even bumping up to a 2 and 1 split for portal and staff. . Either way, the main point of these cards are for card advantage, and portal can more efficiently come down faster. So, your card advantage puts you on big angry uncounterable cavern of souls fatties, to just overpower these weenies.

Also, staff of nin makes a very lackluster forgemaster target, as it doesn't apply enough pressure by itself to justify the sacrifice of 3 other artifacts, most times, in those matches.
Well against decks where want to see cardadvatage speed actually is not an issue (or at least it will start to make difference from midgame on). So the difference between 4 or 6 mana should not be that much of an issue. Both make a crappy Forgemaster target, but if i where to have a choice i can see Staff makes a better one. Also in case of the DnT matchup there might be situations where it shoots a Revoker set on Ugin or Hellkite. In this case making it a perfect Forgemaster target. Also i see benefit against Miracles (clique and snapcaster, while creating "double" cardadvatage and not being able to use plows or terminus on that.)

Airwave
06-17-2015, 09:37 AM
I brought 2 welders in the sideboard but never really needed them that day. I expected to run into more spell pierce for which I could use welder, especially in conjunction with all the artifact land I played.

Perhaps you may not have seen it, but notably absent in my deck list was Chalice of the Void. I forgot to mention it, but I just wanted to try out and see for myself whether Chalice of the Void was REALLY the card that makes the archetype tick. It was an (intentional) mistake not to bring Chalice of the Void but apparently the raw strength of the deck and a little bit of luck made up for it.

I think I violated every single deck building rule for this archetype in one deck and managed to top 8 with it :-) Hypothesis confirmed.

Sure I noticed my favorite card was missing. I'm thinking about testing your list including chalice. Since it doesn't hurt yourself and hurts many many other decks I'd never leave home without it :cool: I guess this list could become even stronger then, but testing will tell us I guess :smile:

Silverflame
06-17-2015, 11:01 AM
Sure I noticed my favorite card was missing. I'm thinking about testing your list including chalice. Since it doesn't hurt yourself and hurts many many other decks I'd never leave home without it :cool: I guess this list could become even stronger then, but testing will tell us I guess :smile:

Chalice seens great for that list because it stops the opponent from landing cheap stuff to feed smokestack, and you can even drop it for 0 for that issue. I sure hope to see more development on that list, it seems very interesting.

potatodavid
06-17-2015, 11:02 AM
I am going to try 2 Portal this Friday. I fee the timmy ping of Staff of Nin is great, but not quite 6 mana great in all MU's. Will report on what I find.

Silverflame
06-17-2015, 11:09 AM
Well against decks where want to see cardadvatage speed actually is not an issue (or at least it will start to make difference from midgame on). So the difference between 4 or 6 mana should not be that much of an issue. Both make a crappy Forgemaster target, but if i where to have a choice i can see Staff makes a better one. Also in case of the DnT matchup there might be situations where it shoots a Revoker set on Ugin or Hellkite. In this case making it a perfect Forgemaster target. Also i see benefit against Miracles (clique and snapcaster, while creating "double" cardadvatage and not being able to use plows or terminus on that.)

I agree. Staff is marginally better, even with the added cost. It's the exception, not the rule, but I had a game once against esper where we where stalled for a long time. He had a stoneforge, tnn and a batterskull with the token but no mana to equip, so he needed to keep bouncing so my wurmcoil wouldn't grant me life. We went to 5 turns. I had no greaves and he was on 2 life, so I kuldotha'ed for staff and bonked his head twice.

Bobmans
06-17-2015, 04:50 PM
So in preperation of GP Lille i was jamming some games with friends and decided to play MUD as a possible deck for the GP. After having some serious losses while playing exhausting and grindy games with both NicFit and BUGStill i wanted to play something that is much faster. And with fine result. Played multiple games:
4-2 ANT
1-2 DnT
2-0 Oozing
2-3 BUG Delver
Could have done better, but made some major errors. Good for the learning process. Focus will be on DnT, BUG, UWR and Stoneblade where i have the most trouble with. It seems that MUD will be my deck for Lille. MUD feels like it is in a good position right now.

darkgh0st
06-17-2015, 09:13 PM
@Bobmans: Good luck to you!

For BUG, I was consistently playing against it this week and had less than 40% win ratio on more than 40 games playing Stax, combo, and stompy (changing lists trying to find a build that would consistently beat BUG). Then I decided to focus on the list I know best (Stax) and made some tweaks with how I play. With the same lists for my Stax (that i had been losing with) and opposing BUG, I was able to win 7/10 games... Weird how changing the way you play increases your probability to win...

Bobmans
06-18-2015, 09:28 AM
@Bobmans: Good luck to you!

For BUG, I was consistently playing against it this week and had less than 40% win ratio on more than 40 games playing Stax, combo, and stompy (changing lists trying to find a build that would consistently beat BUG). Then I decided to focus on the list I know best (Stax) and made some tweaks with how I play. With the same lists for my Stax (that i had been losing with) and opposing BUG, I was able to win 7/10 games... Weird how changing the way you play increases your probability to win...

Could you elaborate about what you changed in the way you play BUG?


So this is what i am currently tweaking. Nothing to weird but the maindeck Mishra's Factory instead of Cavern of Souls. Also the 2/2 split between Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine has been real good to me.

//Main 61 cards:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Side 15 cards:
2 Karn Liberated
1 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wasteland
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Defense Grid
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Not included:
1 Powder Keg instead of Wasteland (going 4 main), Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb, nostalgia man. The thing is just used for creature tokens or a random Deathrite Shaman or Pithing Needle.
1 Staff of Nin instead of Staff of Domination explanation later on.

Optional manabase changes:
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

or

3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

I am still in doubt of playing Mishra's Factory instead of Cavern of Souls. CoS have been dead more often then not, while Mishra's Factory can actually fulfill multiple roles. Hence, sac for Forgemaster, block/attack (MUD was missing critters to put up some early pressure, or sac for Liliana in order to protect a bigger piece. Also Factory stalls the board when the opponent puts up some early pressure.
Also i really like to play the deck more stax-like then focusing on the combo. A lot of decks are very weak to wasteland, running 4 of them with a second Crucible is pretty darn good. But i think that running 4 Factory's makes the most use out of it.
Staff of Domination has once again disappointed me. Never, but i mean never, have i once used it for the win. On rare occasions i use some mana to draw an extra card, but that's about it. So i will make room for the main Staff of Nin (or Spine of Ish Sah and Staff of Nin on the board).
I never saw Thorn of Amethyst, but i also didn't mis it. I can imagine 3 Revokers being solid and a to be determined flex slot.

ANT: 4-2
-3 Ugin
-2 Steel Hellkite
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+1 Trinipshere
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Platinum Emperion

Most games involved in me landing a "lock" piece. G2/G3 he still has outs like end of turn Chain of Vapor or Abrupt Decay. Revoker on Lion's Eye Diamond was pretty hardcore as well as a hasted Wurmcoil Engine/multiple Glimmerposts.
I never saw the Thorn of Amethyst. Also i landed Platinum Emperion G1 on t3 and that is always a win. That game was awesome, on the play. Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Trinisphere,go. T2 Factory, Metalworker, go, T3 tap Metalworker into Platinum Emperion, scoop. Also, Lodestone Golem shines in this (kind of) match-up.

Oozing: 2-1
-3 Ugin
-2 Steel Hellkite
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+1 Trinipshere
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Platinum Emperion

Landing Chalice @ 1 did do it, but it is tricky considering they can Entomb in respond, untap and cast Shallow Grave. Also if they have the mana they can go Buried Alive into Shallow Grave. Luckily Buried Alive is sorcery speed. Lock pieces work very well, but the deck is incredibly resilient and can win fast and out of nowhere. 1 game won going T1 Lightning Greaves, T2 Metalworker, 1 mana floating reveling 6 Artifacts, 1 being Metalworker, 1 being Forgemaster. I casted the second Metalworker, equipped and revealed 2 artifact, cast Forgemaster, equip and sac 2 Metalworkers and the Forgemaster for Blightsteel, equip and yay!

DnT: 1-2
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Lodestone Golem

+2 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Spine of Ish Sah
+1 Ensnaring Bridge

Perhaps i would have switched the Trinispheres for Chalice's on the play, but i didn't think about it during the match-up. On the draw those are only good if they do not cast a vial. If you get a Chalice @ 1 followed by a Chalice @ 3 it is usually over. But often we do not get to that point. Ugin was really important, but you need tools like Karn and Spine to get rid of Revoker. One game he responded to my Forgemaster activation with a Containment Priest. He had a Pithing Needle on Ugin, while i had Ugin. I fetched the Spine targeting the Needle and bolted the Priest. Karn and friends showed up on the ultimate.
I would say that Aether Vial is the problem card of that deck. Revokers help to stop that interaction. Also Revoker stops Batterksull or Jitte. Lodestone Golem is often to weak in this match-up, but i leave in some to have some bodies. The Ensnaring Bridge is there to stop them from overloading. It is sometimes relevant to stop Batterskull and/or a creature equipped with Sword of x and y.

BUG: 2-3
-1 Platinum Emperion
-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Lodestone Golem

+2 Karn Liberated
+1 Sundering Titan
+1 Wasteland
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Trinisphere
+2 Defense Grid
+1 Spine of Ish Sah

Again here i find Golem to be weak, also Chalice meet Abrupt Decay.. I rather invest in stopping their mana from developing. Often if you can hold them of 3 mana your in the safe zone, especially under a Trinisphere. Their best T1 play against us is Fetch + Deathrite Shaman. Hymn or Abrupt Decay + Wasteland is pretty killing. Not sure if i want Thorn of Amethyst here to bait FoW or Daze in order to get a Trinisphere or Metalworker out. Mishra's Factory was decent as it was able to hold of Dark Confidant and unflipped Delver. Karn Liberated acts as a very huge Liliana against them. Often it was like who has the better early turn plays. I punted one game really hard. I casted a T2 Metalworker which resolved and survived one turn. Then i untapped drawing a 6th artifact. I revealed all for 12 mana and greedy as i was i casted Blightsteel which met a FoW. I should have gone for Lodestone Golem (preboard), Forgemaster and another Forgemaster into Sundering Titan.

darkgh0st
06-18-2015, 10:15 AM
I used to avoid Daze and don't use my Wasteland right away. The longer you can keep them at low level lands, the better you will be off mid-game. I used to save my Wasteland to have mana to cast Lodestone or something else. Also, when they alternate cost Daze, that takes away that land from them. So I try to bait Daze with less important items, sometimes even baiting the Chalice or Sphere only to put them behind and have something better after. Also, if you do resolve the tax piece, chances are they have a creature and pressing you. I normally try to match it up right away, meeting FoW or Decay. I find that the right play was to ease in mana rocks, or the small items, or even just a couple Mishra's Factories and gain life with Glimmerposts. Eventually they'll have to respond. Then that's when you take out your big items. There were times where Hymn was taking two big cards away from me, a Lodestone and a Forgemaster, only for me to resolve a Wurmcoil or Steel Hellkite. And if they cast the Goyf instead, you're free to cast the fatty you want. Then there's Lilliana, who's been a b... to handle. Mishra's Factories were great.

Any thoughts on this?

Bobmans
06-18-2015, 10:30 AM
I used to avoid Daze and don't use my Wasteland right away. The longer you can keep them at low level lands, the better you will be off mid-game. I used to save my Wasteland to have mana to cast Lodestone or something else. Also, when they alternate cost Daze, that takes away that land from them. So I try to bait Daze with less important items, sometimes even baiting the Chalice or Sphere only to put them behind and have something better after. Also, if you do resolve the tax piece, chances are they have a creature and pressing you. I normally try to match it up right away, meeting FoW or Decay. I find that the right play was to ease in mana rocks, or the small items, or even just a couple Mishra's Factories and gain life with Glimmerposts. Eventually they'll have to respond. Then that's when you take out your big items. There were times where Hymn was taking two big cards away from me, a Lodestone and a Forgemaster, only for me to resolve a Wurmcoil or Steel Hellkite. And if they cast the Goyf instead, you're free to cast the fatty you want. Then there's Lilliana, who's been a b... to handle. Mishra's Factories were great.

Any thoughts on this?
I fully agree with this. fire of Wastelands right away on T1 even if that leaves you with 0 lands is often pretty good. especially if they go Fetch -> Ponder. Dealing with them if they go Fetch -> Deathrite Shaman changes things. Anyway, manascrewing them is the best tactic and early Wasteland really is good. Also Sundering Titan is a house against them. Liliana is a big trouble. Mishra's Factory plus Revokers from the board should help a lot.
Would you rather see 3/4 split Factory/Wasteland or the other way around?

darkgh0st
06-18-2015, 10:42 AM
From my testing, it didn't really mattered when it was a 3/4 or a 4/3. Vesuvas make up for the lacking copy (I am running 3). I'd even say as long as you have 3 of each (Wasteland and Mishra's Factory) or more you are doing fine.

Bobmans
06-18-2015, 11:17 AM
From my testing, it didn't really mattered when it was a 3/4 or a 4/3. Vesuvas make up for the lacking copy (I am running 3). I'd even say as long as you have 3 of each (Wasteland and Mishra's Factory) or more you are doing fine.
Copying a factory seems more appealing then Wasteland since you fire those away pretty fast while factory's stay. So i basicly answered my own question. Thanks for reflecting.
Also what are your thoughts on Staff of Domination?

darkgh0st
06-18-2015, 12:42 PM
I put Staff of Domination in the same category as Blightsteel Colossus. You just win out of nowhere with it, or it becomes a bad draw. So if you want to eliminate all your bad draws, take out both. But include both in if you want to win out of nowhere. And Staff of Domination should not be compared to Staff of Nin, they have different purposes in the deck, even if Staff of Domination can acts as a draw engine.

Bobmans
06-18-2015, 01:11 PM
I put Staff of Domination in the same category as Blightsteel Colossus. You just win out of nowhere with it, or it becomes a bad draw. So if you want to eliminate all your bad draws, take out both. But include both in if you want to win out of nowhere. And Staff of Domination should not be compared to Staff of Nin, they have different purposes in the deck, even if Staff of Domination can acts as a draw engine.
The thing is, i have never won with Staff of Domination. I am not comparing the two staffs, i was just suggesting i'd rather put in something else like the staff of nin or spine of ish sah. Might aswell be wurmcoil nr3 or lightning greaves nr3. I would never cut Blightsteel from a deck running Forgemaster. That card has won me lots of games.

darkgh0st
06-18-2015, 01:29 PM
I guess it depends on what you are trying to solve. Staff of Domination can let you combo out before an opponent can. The 9th place in SCG last week didn't have any Staff of Domination, but a Spine of Ish Sah main instead.

Bobmans
06-19-2015, 11:51 AM
I guess it depends on what you are trying to solve. Staff of Domination can let you combo out before an opponent can. The 9th place in SCG last week didn't have any Staff of Domination, but a Spine of Ish Sah main instead.
I'm going with a Spine main and drop the Staff from the 76. Also going for 4 Wasteland and 3 Mishra's Factory.
Another card i have doubts about is Thorn of Amethyst. I guess i prefer running 3 Revokers. That leaves me with one open spot, any suggestion? Emrakul would be fun to against Miracles and painter like decks. Also might be funny to drop one under an opponents Show and Tell (after i made sure he cant instantly win with Omniscience due to lock pieces.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-19-2015, 02:11 PM
What do you think of this?

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
2 Blasted Landscape

I find 24 lands to be too many. ... I'm unimpressed with Mishra's Factory save for protecting against planeswalkers. Which it's not particularly great at doing.

I don't like Cavern Of Souls because it holds out counterspells against Ugin

potatodavid
06-19-2015, 02:20 PM
Blasted Landscapes just seems bad for card draw. Just play darksteel citadel instead.

Bobmans
06-19-2015, 02:46 PM
What do you think of this?

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
2 Blasted Landscape

I find 24 lands to be too many. ... I'm unimpressed with Mishra's Factory save for protecting against planeswalkers. Which it's not particularly great at doing.

I don't like Cavern Of Souls because it holds out counterspells against Ugin

Buried Ruin can also be a solid cards. Being able to regain forgemaster food or countered cards back from the bin a good consideration.

Don't forget that Mishra's Factory is not in the deck simply to protect walkers. It has a lot more utility that can be used in different situations. Most likely if you resolve Ugin, the board is empty and often doesn't need (much) protection. In this matter i also take in account that he can soak a lot of damage because he has 7 loyalty and bolting ups it by 2 each time. MUD also misses a quick creature deployment when not dropping bombs from your hand. The lowest CMC creature is Lodestone Golem and sometimes Phyrexian Revoker out of the board. By using Factory's you are able to create more boardpresence, while not polluting your deck mediocre cards. It produces mana so it help stabilizing a manabase. It can be an artifact so you can sac it for Forgedude. And having a creature bring more advantages. Plus, they become better if you land multiples. Just by having an untapped Factory and mana open you prevent a lot of creatures attacking into it. Also with Crucible of Worlds they become even better. Let them waste a bolt on it. Fine, thats one less for Lodestone Golem or Metalworker. That said, i am not saying that the card is super awesome, i am just trying to say that the card offers more then one might expect and has some synergy with MUD. Being multi functional is important.

I agree on your take on Cavern of Souls. Better they waste FoW on Forgemaster or Lodestone Golem and then Ugin pops up. Better they run out of counterspells and removal fast so the bombs eventually start to land.

Alex Holland
06-20-2015, 06:54 AM
I put Staff of Domination in the same category as Blightsteel Colossus. You just win out of nowhere with it, or it becomes a bad draw. So if you want to eliminate all your bad draws, take out both. But include both in if you want to win out of nowhere. And Staff of Domination should not be compared to Staff of Nin, they have different purposes in the deck, even if Staff of Domination can acts as a draw engine.

lol

1 activate kuldotha
2 equip greaves
3 win

but yeah blightsteel colossus is totally 'random' in this deck :eyebrow:

potatodavid
06-20-2015, 10:15 AM
Went 3-1 at FNM last night. Did not get a chance to try out Coercive Portal (the shop didn't have any) last night or Ugin. They never came up in any of my games to try them out.

------------------
4x
-------------------
Cloudpost
Glimmerpost
City of Traitors
Ancient tomb
Metalworker
Grim Monolith
Lodestone Golem
Chalice
3 ball
Forgemaster
-------------------
3x
-------------------
Wasteland
Vesuva
Wurmcoil
-------------------
2x
-------------------
Sundering Titan
-------------------
Various singletons
---------------------
1-Punch Robot
Staff of Domination
Greaves
Platinum Angel
Spine of Ish Sah
Staff of Nin
Ugin
Steel Hellkite
------------------------
Board
------------------------
2x Pithing Needle
2x Revoker
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Bottle Cloister
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Greaves
1x Spine
1x Karn
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Contaigon Engine

-------------------------------------

Games:

Round 1: High Tide
Game 1: Chalice on 1 + 3 Ball + Lodestone Golem = I win
Game 2: He Lands a rebuild end of my turn 3. Then Plays Solitaire for 10 minutes on turn 4.
Game 3: See Game 2.

Round 2: ANT
Game 1: Chalice on 1, 3 ball turn 2. Wurmcoil seals it this time!
Game 2: He has the turn 1 kill.
Game 3: Chalice on 1, He abrupt decays it. Turn 2 Witchbane orb, He concedes.

Round 3: Death's Shadow
Game 1: He lands a Delver turn 1 which flips and starts going to town on my life total. I get a chalice out which pretty much shuts all of his spells off. I land a Sundering titan and since his deck is running shocklands he's forced to block with his delver to see if he can find some miracle spell. Dies anyways.
Game 2: He counters the first 2 chalices I drop. I land a 3 ball and waste one of his lands. I win with a platinum angel in the air oddly enough.

Round 4: ANT
Game 1: Chalice + Sphere + Wurmcoil win.
Game 2: Chalice + 3 Ball + Witchbane Orb + Thorn of Amethyst + Lodestone = win


I hit all the right cards all night with the exception of the high tide player having rebuild. Things I wanna tweak, I do want to try Coercive portal over Staff of Nin. I would also like to play more fair match-ups. I was against decks that this was designed to eat a live. Wins are great but I would love more practice against the delvers of the world just to be a better pilot of this deck.

darkgh0st
06-21-2015, 07:42 PM
I played a generic MUD deck with 2 main deck Phyrexian Revoker at a 40 player legacy tourney at Face to Face Games Toronto.

I didn't do so well, winning my first two matches and losing the next 3.

Round 1 was UG 12post:
Game 1: I resolve an early Chalice for 1 and then a Lodestone Golem. We both have late Cloudposts. I didn't see much from his side other than him getting rid of my Chalice through Repeal, SnT a Primeval Titan, and Ulamog hitting my Greaves. Got a Forgemaster, Greaves, double 3sphere, then went for a Blightsteel FTW.
Game 2: We both were opening with Cloudposts and Glimmerposts enough so we can both generate 12 mana. I get a Karn online first and go a long way with it.
1-0

Round 2 with MUD Mirror Match:
Game 1: We both open with Grim Monoliths then clog up the board with artifacts. He was shutting down my mana with Crubile and Wasteland, and I had my Phyrexian Revoker set to Metalworker. He would win as we both tutor for a Blightsteel and he attacks me with it and he has 3 more artifacts, but he decided to fetch Spine to target Blightsteel, which is Indestructible. We both shuffle Blightsteel, only for me to draw it again after some draw and gos. I end up ahead with a Wurmcoil FTW.
Game 2: He didn't have much lands as I shut his mana sources down with Phyrexian Revoker on Grim Monolith and Wasteland him to none. I get a Forgemaster out and fetch Blightsteel for the scoop.
2-0

Round 3 with Lands:
G1 and G2: lose horribly and G2 not able to get Chalice on Turn 1, but on turn 2. 2 Explorations came out T1.
2-1

Round 4 with RU Omni-Tell:
G1: Didn't know what I was playing against so I kept a fast hand with no taxes. My Blightsteel met Emrakul and got sacrificed after.
G2: Chalice for 1 got countered and didn't draw any other tax effects while him having solutions for Lodestone and anything I threw at him.
2-2

Round 5 with some BW deck:
G1: He won with a whole bunch of Discards, StP, and Lillian a to seal the deal.
G2: I won by locking him out.
G3: I didn't really care as I can't make it for top 8, so I went to sac 3 artifact to fetch another Grim Monolith to cast Ugin, only to see the opponent topdeck a Pithing Needle and I proceed to lose.
2-3 and dropped



Couple of take away notes that I got from that tourney:
- There were 4 MUD players in that tourney, which is 10% of the total meta there. Seems like MUD really is growing.
- For lands, mull to a first turn Chalice or 3sphere
- The red brew of Omni-Tell uses Young Pyromancer and Lightning Bolts
- For Omni-Tell, even with a first turn Chalice or tax effect, we are still screwed as they have tons of countermeasures against us.
- A fellow MUD player has sworn on Staff of Nin in his 75. There was 8 DnT decks in one tourney he was in and lots in previous ones. Though, none that I know of in this tourney today.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-21-2015, 10:48 PM
For the Liliana / Discard matchup, play Dodecapod in sideboard. If they hymn him or Liliana it, it gets put right into play as a 5/5 . Then maybe you have a clear shot at taking out liliana with it. I don't know what else to play lol but have seen this card show up in some lists .

BlackHawkX9
06-22-2015, 05:33 AM
For the Liliana / Discard matchup, play Dodecapod in sideboard. If they hymn him or Liliana it, it gets put right into play as a 5/5 . Then maybe you have a clear shot at taking out liliana with it. I don't know what else to play lol but have seen this card show up in some lists .

Against Lilli, the combination of coercive portals and wurmcoil engine usually proves too much for those decks to handle. Dead guy ale (BW discard, stp, etc) is a rough match for mud without chalice on 1.

Bobmans
06-22-2015, 06:52 AM
For the Liliana / Discard matchup, play Dodecapod in sideboard. If they hymn him or Liliana it, it gets put right into play as a 5/5 . Then maybe you have a clear shot at taking out liliana with it. I don't know what else to play lol but have seen this card show up in some lists .
Stuff like Dodecapod is just so narrow. To narrow to push a possible win out of it.

potatodavid
06-22-2015, 12:05 PM
I think we make the point of trying our Portal/Staff against lily and keep jamming fatties if we can.

Scott
06-22-2015, 02:03 PM
This only applies to Welder MUD, but my go-to SB card against BUG and the Liliana decks being discussed would be Blood Moon, as it's never dead against those decks, and has broad application against the field.

Bobmans
06-23-2015, 03:16 AM
This only applies to Welder MUD, but my go-to SB card against BUG and the Liliana decks being discussed would be Blood Moon, as it's never dead against those decks, and has broad application against the field.
Yes Blood Moon may even be a reason to play Welder MUD. If your field is filled with lot of triple color control, lands and fast combo. Otherwise, or in an unknown meta, i would prefer the more consistent and reliable mana development of mono brown with Cloudpost and focus on Ugin.

bruizar
06-23-2015, 03:49 AM
Okay, another idea that may or may not go anywhere. I was wondering if Rage Extractor could be a viable card for MUD. This card easily addresses the match up against BUG as Phyrexian Mana cards often dodge Abrupt Decay and you can shoot the damage from Rage Extractor on Liliana regardless of whether the card even resolves. For it to work, you'd need a critical density of Phyrexian Mana cards (which also pressures your life total quiet a bit). Here are the once that I think are worth looking at:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Rage Extractor
Slash Panther
Pith Driller - Probably not
Moltensteel Dragon
Porcelain Legionnaire

I think it would really add up quickly.
Rage Extractor into Phyrexian Metamorph 4 damage
Moltensteel Dragon -> 12 damage

The trick is to play only with the cards that are good without Rage Extractor. I have done very well both with Metamorphs and Moltensteel Dragons before. The other cards I have no experience playing with.

kingtk3
06-23-2015, 04:18 AM
Okay, another idea that may or may not go anywhere. I was wondering if Rage Extractor could be a viable card for MUD. This card easily addresses the match up against BUG as Phyrexian Mana cards often dodge Abrupt Decay and you can shoot the damage from Rage Extractor on Liliana regardless of whether the card even resolves. For it to work, you'd need a critical density of Phyrexian Mana cards (which also pressures your life total quiet a bit). Here are the once that I think are worth looking at:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Rage Extractor
Slash Panther
Pith Driller - Probably not
Moltensteel Dragon
Porcelain Legionnaire

I think it would really add up quickly.
Rage Extractor into Phyrexian Metamorph 4 damage
Moltensteel Dragon -> 12 damage

The trick is to play only with the cards that are good without Rage Extractor. I have done very well both with Metamorphs and Moltensteel Dragons before. The other cards I have no experience playing with.

I like the idea and in the past I wondered about it as well. Porcelain Legionnaire and slash panther are good enough to be played in vintage in some versions of MUD, although the former because is an asnwer to lodestone golem and ignot chewer mainly.

I agree that we should play only cards useful on their own, and for this very reason I have to point out the Rage Extractor itself is not good on its own (at least not the first copy, but the others are marginal too): this can be an issue.

Nevertheless I'm intrigued by the idea: do you already have a build?

bruizar
06-23-2015, 04:29 AM
I like the idea and in the past I wondered about it as well. Porcelain Legionnaire and slash panther are good enough to be played in vintage in some versions of MUD, although the former because is an asnwer to lodestone golem and ignot chewer mainly.

I agree that we should play only cards useful on their own, and for this very reason I have to point out the Rage Extractor itself is not good on its own (at least not the first copy, but the others are marginal too): this can be an issue.

Nevertheless I'm intrigued by the idea: do you already have a build?

This worries me as well. I mentally compare Rage Extractor to Smokestack, which does nothing the turn it comes into play and costs 4 mana. It doesn't look very promising when you compare it like this. On the other hand, being able to switch to a burn strategy without compromising on the threat density sounds appealing. I especially like the fact that once Rage Extractor comes down, counter magic doesn't protect the control opponent anymore. The problem with burn was always that if they burn your creatures, they are not pressuring life totals. A Rage Extractor would not suffer the same fate because after Rage Extractor comes down, every 'burn spell' is an immediate threat, or every immediate threat is a burn spell.

I don't have a list yet, but I'll brew this week. I lean towards the red splash stompy skeleton for sideboard options, Blood Moon, Moltensteel Dragon and Rage Extractor since I think the Phyrexian damage can add up. Perhaps some one with more experience running 12 post could provide some insight into the level of explosiveness and life gain of the mono colored build.

kingtk3
06-23-2015, 05:23 AM
This worries me as well. I mentally compare Rage Extractor to Smokestack, which does nothing the turn it comes into play and costs 4 mana. It doesn't look very promising when you compare it like this. On the other hand, being able to switch to a burn strategy without compromising on the threat density sounds appealing. I especially like the fact that once Rage Extractor comes down, counter magic doesn't protect the control opponent anymore. The problem with burn was always that if they burn your creatures, they are not pressuring life totals. A Rage Extractor would not suffer the same fate because after Rage Extractor comes down, every 'burn spell' is an immediate threat, or every immediate threat is a burn spell.

I don't have a list yet, but I'll brew this week. I lean towards the red splash stompy skeleton for sideboard options, Blood Moon, Moltensteel Dragon and Rage Extractor since I think the Phyrexian damage can add up. Perhaps some one with more experience running 12 post could provide some insight into the level of explosiveness and life gain of the mono colored build.

While Rage Extractor and Smokestack both do nothing the turn they comes into play, the former needs phyrexian mana cards to do something, while the latter is a lock on its own, so I don't think they can be compared (and smokestack doesn't see much legacy play anyway).

But still I like RE, at least on paper!

I played the posts mana base both in Eldrazi-ramp and in MUD: if you get the draw of double cloudpost double glimmerpost (consider vesuva in the equation) AND the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, by turn 4 you have 10 mana and gain 7 life, which is huge. However this scenario doesn't happen as frequently as in Eldrazi-ramp because in MUD there is no way to tutor for lands.

There are many times when you draw a couple of tombs/cities/caverns and a lone post which is poor in the early game.

However I think that the posts mana base is a nice improvement for MUD because in the mid-long game it's natural to draw some posts, and it's another way apart metalworker to drop bombs (although this is somewhat unrelated to the current topic).

But I don't think is enough reliable to mitigate the phyrexian damage or to ramp regulary in the first turns, unless you don't play some tutors and deck manipulation yourself.

darkgh0st
06-23-2015, 09:10 AM
If you're still not planning to run Chalice then you can run Expedition Maps.

potatodavid
06-24-2015, 09:16 AM
Chalice is one of the main reasons to play the deck.

Dutch253
06-24-2015, 09:59 AM
Chalice is one of the main reasons to play the deck.

Yeah, I was under the impression a turn 1 chalice was one of the best plays the deck can do?

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-24-2015, 12:02 PM
Against creatures, the best card to play is Triskelion . You can knock out 2-3 creatures with it, like Delvers and Pyromancer and his troops. It can also come down and knock out planeswalkers since it damages the player. It's a construct and uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. You can abuse it with Goblin Welder. The other option if you want to play a lower mana cost is Serrated Arrows, which has been discussed. Esperzoa has yet to be tested much, but there are many cards you can abuse counters with such as Chalice of the Void. Maybe someday we'll see an unbanning of Tolarian Academy .

Speaking of crazy cards,

This is my prediction.. MUD will go blue to play this and cut the Cloudposts mana. This new card has been spoiled in MTG Origins

Day's Undoing - 2U
Sorcery
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library then draws seven cards. If it's your turn , end the turn.

This is like a Memory Jar effect. Finally... should MUD go Deep Blue for this?

darkgh0st
06-24-2015, 04:40 PM
Definitely not in MUD. For the same reason why MUD skips Ancestral Recall in vintage.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-24-2015, 06:43 PM
You know it's a Timetwister right

It's a Memory Jar for 3 that lets you keep all your draws.

I don't even really understand why they didn't just unban Memory Jar instead

darkgh0st
06-24-2015, 06:51 PM
Vintage MUD skips that one too. :-)

bruizar
06-25-2015, 02:52 AM
Against creatures, the best card to play is Triskelion . You can knock out 2-3 creatures with it, like Delvers and Pyromancer and his troops. It can also come down and knock out planeswalkers since it damages the player. It's a construct and uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. You can abuse it with Goblin Welder. The other option if you want to play a lower mana cost is Serrated Arrows, which has been discussed. Esperzoa has yet to be tested much, but there are many cards you can abuse counters with such as Chalice of the Void. Maybe someday we'll see an unbanning of Tolarian Academy .

Speaking of crazy cards,

This is my prediction.. MUD will go blue to play this and cut the Cloudposts mana. This new card has been spoiled in MTG Origins

Day's Undoing - 2U
Sorcery
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library then draws seven cards. If it's your turn , end the turn.

This is like a Memory Jar effect. Finally... should MUD go Deep Blue for this?

My first thought was a blue build with Tezzeret the Seeker and splash a combo like painter/grindstone or thopter/sword.

I played Esperzoa in Vintage years ago. There was a really nice blue deck that ran Mana Drains, Esperzoa, Mishra's Workshops and Elsewhere Flask, bouncing the flask for card advantage, sacking the flask to counter Wasteland and using the flask to get double blue for counter mana. Elsewhere Flask is a nice trick against Price of Progress.

darkgh0st
06-25-2015, 09:30 AM
If we're to splash blue... I'm think Sea Stompy with Mulldrifter, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Illusory Angel. Those can go under the Cavern too. I like that Elsewhere Flask, quite a neat card. Also blue adds two taxing effects with the splash:
In the Eye of Chaos
Chill for burn decks

Fatal
06-25-2015, 09:48 AM
Blue gives what we need just let's take vintage experience - Thoughtcast, and new Timetwister, both gives good refill.

We need locks and mana acceleration which is worst then vintage - no moxes, sol rings or mana crypts and no shops.

Here is my first thought about new build:

4 Trinisphere
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 New Timetwister
4 Phantasmal Image / Copy Artifact
4 Thoughtcast
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chalice of the Void
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Mox Opal


After first testing I think to bump lands count (many mulligans) to 21-22 with some manlands - Factories ? - Many times locked game totally.

fogxanic
06-25-2015, 11:29 AM
Bye staff of nin, welcome http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/71/857/200/283/635708228412617914.png

EDIT: Sorry I read it wrong it doesn't draw cards like staff. We keep Staffs.

potatodavid
06-25-2015, 11:48 AM
Bye staff of nin, welcome http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/71/857/200/283/635708228412617914.png

EDIT: Sorry I read it wrong it doesn't draw cards like staff. We keep Staffs.

Yeah this card is bad outside of 4 EDH decks.

Mockingbird
06-25-2015, 10:43 PM
If we're to splash blue... I'm think Sea Stompy with Mulldrifter, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Illusory Angel. Those can go under the Cavern too. I like that Elsewhere Flask, quite a neat card. Also blue adds two taxing effects with the splash:
In the Eye of Chaos
Chill for burn decks

If you are serious about a blue splash, none of those cards would work without dropping Metalworker, and that's not happening.

Here's the list of blue cards I'd play in MUD

Thoughtcast
Etherium Sculptor
Faerie Mechanist
Master of Etherium
Master Transmuter
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sharding Sphinx

And the only card I think that may ultimate make the cut is Phyrexian Metamorph.

Silverflame
06-26-2015, 10:49 AM
If you are serious about a blue splash, none of those cards would work without dropping Metalworker, and that's not happening.

Here's the list of blue cards I'd play in MUD

Thoughtcast
Etherium Sculptor
Faerie Mechanist
Master of Etherium
Master Transmuter
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sharding Sphinx

And the only card I think that may ultimate make the cut is Phyrexian Metamorph.

I'd go for master transmuter and metamorph. Also Power artifact for the infinite mana with grim monolith. You can use the mana with staff, hellkite or umbral mantle, although my testing with the latter proved it is too narrow of an effect.

darkgh0st
06-26-2015, 12:51 PM
Making a blue brew is on my list, though I'm leaning towards using:
Upheaval
Stroke of Genius
Prosperity
Hive Mind in the sideboard with Pact items

I'm focusing on a stompy build right now without Forgemaster and trying to finish the sideboard. I'm also contemplating on breaking Winter Orb out with Tangle Wires and taxing effects.

For sideboarding, while most would pick Tormod's Crypt, what are people's thoughts on Relic of Progenitus?

Dutch253
06-27-2015, 08:13 AM
I've seen lists playing Smokestack. How do we effectively play that card? Do we typically have enough permanents in play to let it sit around with a few counters on it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bobmans
06-27-2015, 09:54 AM
I've seen lists playing Smokestack. How do we effectively play that card? Do we typically have enough permanents in play to let it sit around with a few counters on it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Staxbuilds often run Goblin Welder, Tangle Wire and Crucible of Worlds in conjuction to most of the "other" usual suspects. You could choose to not run Chalice and go with Voltaic Key and Sensei's Divining Top next to Daretti.
But also the UB Tezzeret Super Stax ran it along with Jace and The Abyss. Also seen with Braids, Cabal Minion.
Anyway, i am not sure if we want to be doing thus over Cloudpost and Ugin.


Edit: and dont forget about white stax aka Dutch Stax...

bruizar
06-27-2015, 11:56 AM
Nowadays its hard not to gain an advantage from Smokestack. The problem is that it takes 4 mana and a turn before it does anything. Smokestack becomes incrementally better the longer it stays in play because all the easy sacrifices are made first. You essentially win with Smokestack when the difficult choices have to be made. Therefore, you don't even need to combine it with Crucible of Worlds, or more obscure cards like Flagstones of Trokair, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, or Prototype Portal. The permanent density is already high enough to feed Smokestack. This is why I've recently become more and more interested in the Braids build. I can see a deck do well that can land a turn 2 Braids and stick it next to an early Ophinomancer, Bitterblossom or Crucible of Worlds. Last tournament I played with I did manage to lock out several games with Smokestack, so for all the times he's dead in your hand, you can also steal some games.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-27-2015, 11:57 AM
Vryn Wingmare - 2W

Creature - Pegasus

Flying

Non-creature spells cost 1 more to cast .

2 / 1

this is from MTG origins. I like the idea of playing a 3-drop , but I don't think this is powerful enough. A symmetrical drawback should have pushed this card to being more than a 2 / 1 . Cutting cloudposts mana to play this without draw spells is also rough . At least red gave you Welder and access to Faithless Looting .

Maybe a MUD list playing Scroll Rack and Land Tax will be competitive

Silverflame
06-27-2015, 05:57 PM
Another interesting development:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86701

He uses several lifegain effects to draw with well of lost dreams.

(nameless one)
06-27-2015, 06:21 PM
Vryn Wingmare - 2W

Creature - Pegasus

Flying

Non-creature spells cost 1 more to cast .

2 / 1

this is from MTG origins. I like the idea of playing a 3-drop , but I don't think this is powerful enough. A symmetrical drawback should have pushed this card to being more than a 2 / 1 . Cutting cloudposts mana to play this without draw spells is also rough . At least red gave you Welder and access to Faithless Looting .

Maybe a MUD list playing Scroll Rack and Land Tax will be competitive

If Glowrider didn't see play, I don't see how this will.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-29-2015, 10:52 AM
Another interesting development:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86701

He uses several lifegain effects to draw with well of lost dreams.

I've been trying to playtest it in MTGO but haven't managed to get the Well in play yet .

I cut Staff Of Domination, Thousand-Year Elixir, Spine Of Ish Sah, 1 City of Traitors, and 1 Trinisphere, for 3 more lands and a Coercive Portal though . Otherwise it's the same list . And I took out Cavern and replaced them with Wastelands and Blasted Landscape ... I still think Blasted Landscape is really good.

Silverflame
06-29-2015, 01:42 PM
I've been trying to playtest it in MTGO but haven't managed to get the Well in play yet .

I cut Staff Of Domination, Thousand-Year Elixir, Spine Of Ish Sah, 1 City of Traitors, and 1 Trinisphere, for 3 more lands and a Coercive Portal though . Otherwise it's the same list . And I took out Cavern and replaced them with Wastelands and Blasted Landscape ... I still think Blasted Landscape is really good.

I think you missed the point on that build. You need extra mana to pay for the well, hence no wastelands or landscape. You need to gain life, so 4 wurmcoils with cavern.
The spine is meant to be sacced with trading post ,netting you a card and reusing it for a soft lock.
Staff and elixir are 1-ofs for the I win button, since you lose tempo to set up the shenanigans.

Airwave
06-30-2015, 05:43 AM
Hi there,

I've been looking for a sideboard guide for MUD but can't seem to find one. Since many high-performing lists are starting to look very much alike, I thought it would be a good idea to look at sideboarding from that perspective. So I made a list, also to save on time during tournaments.

The current list I'm playing:
(which I'm bringing to GP Lille btw)


//Main 60 cards:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland

4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
2 Coercive Portal

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere


//Side 15 cards:
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wasteland
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
IN
OUT

Patriot delver
1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 2x Phyrexian Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Grim Monolith, 1x Karn Liberated, 1x Spine of Ish Sah

Shardless BUG
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Ugin, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 2x Revoker, 1x Needle
4x Chalice, 2x Grim Monolith, 1x Platinum Angel

Sneak & Show
2x Revoker, 1x Needle, 3x Thorn, 1x Bridge
2x Ugin, 2x Coercive Portal, 1x Platinum Angel, 1x Sundering Titan, 1x Trini

Storm
1x Trinisphere, 1x Ratchet, 1x Revoker, 3x Thorn
1x Karn, 1x Sundering Titan, 2x Coercive Portal, 2x Ugin

Elves
1x Ratchet Bomb, 2x Revoker, 1x Batterskull, 1x Needle, 1x Bridge,1x Ugin
2x Grim Monolith, 2x Coercive Portal, 1x Karn, 1x Sundering Titan, 1x Spine

Goblins
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Batterskull, 1x Ugin, 1x Crucible
3x Trinisphere, 1x Karn, 1x Sundering, 1x Chalice

Death & Taxes
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Needle, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 1x Batterskull
3x Trinisphere, 1x Grim Monolith, 1x Sundering Titan, 1x Platinum, 1x Karn

Dredge
2x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Trinisphere, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Batterskull, 2x Revoker
1x Karn, 2x Coercive Portal, 2x Ugin, 1x Sundering, 1x Spine

Burn
1x Trinisphere, 2x Revoker, 1x Batterskull, 3x Thorn, 1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Karn, 2x Ugin, 1x Karn, 1x Sundering, 1x Spine, 2x Coercive Portal

Pox
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Needle, 1x Batterskull, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible
3x Trinisphere, 1x Sundering, 1x Platinum, 1x Spine, 1x Grim

Affinity
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Batterskull, 2x Revoker, 1x Needle
4x Lodestone Golem, 1x Sundering

High Tide
1x Trinisphere, 3x Thorn, 2x Revoker
2x Ugin, 1x Spine, 1x Sundering, 2x Coercive Portal

MUD
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 1x Needle, 1x Bridge, 1x Batterskull
4x Chalice, 3x Trinisphere, 1x Sundering

Miracles
1x Needle, 1x Batterskull, 1x Ugin, 1x Ratchet
1x Platinum, 2x Grim, 1x Spine

Reanimator
2x Tormod's Crypt, 2x Revoker, 1x Bridge
2x Coercive Portal, 1x Platinum, 2x Ugin

Bant
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Ugin, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 2x Revoker, 1x Needle
3x Trinisphere, 2x Grim, 1x Karn, 1x Platinum

Punishing Jund
1x Crucible, 1x Wasteland, 1x Needle
1x Platinum Angel, 1x Spine, 1x Cavern of Souls

Merfolk
1x Batterskull, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Ugin, 2x Revoker
3x Trinisphere, 1x Karn, 1x Sundering

Stoneblade
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible
1x Grim Monolith, 1x Trinisphere, 1x Platinum

RUG Delver
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Crucible, 1x Ugin, 1x Batterskull
2x Coercive Portal, 1x Lodestone, 1x Karn

Maverick
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Needle, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 1x Batterskull
2x Grim Monolith, 3x Trinisphere, 1x Karn, 1x Platinum Angel

NicFit
2x Revoker, 1x Batterskull, 1x Wasteland, 1x Ugin
2x Grim, 1x Platinum, 1x Spine, 1x Cavern of Souls

Painter
2x Revoker, 1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Needle, 1x Ugin, 1x Wasteland
1x Platinum, 3x Trini, 1x Sundering, 1x Vesuva

12post
2x Revoker, 1x Batterskull, 1x Wasteland,1x Crucible, 1x Bridge, 1x Needle
3x Trinisphere, 1x Platinum, 1x Sundering, 2x Ugin

UR Delver
1x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Ugin, 1x Batterskull, 1x Trinisphere, 3x Thorn
1x Karn, 4x Lodestone, 1x Coercive, 1x Spine

Grixis Delver
2x Revoker, 1x Trinisphere, 1x Ugin, 1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Karn, 4x Lodestone

Grixis Control
1x Needle, 2x Revoker, 1x Ugin, 1x Ratchet, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible
1x Platinum, 4x Lodestone, 2x Grim

Infect
1x Needle, 1x Ratchet, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 1x Trini, 2x Thorn
2x Coercive Portal, 2x Ugin, 2x Wurmcoil, 1x Vesuva

Lands
1x Needle, 1x Wasteland, 1x Crucible, 1x Bridge, 2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere, 2x Ugin, 1x Coercive Portal

Omnishow
3x Thorn, 1x Bridge, 1x Trini
1x Platinum, 2x Coercive Portal, 2x Ugin




I'm sorry for the long post. Any (constructive) criticism is welcome! :smile:

Avez
06-30-2015, 07:18 AM
Great sideboarding guide, thanks! Pithing Needle seems to missing from the sideboard though.