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keys
06-30-2015, 09:01 AM
I think you missed the point on that build. You need extra mana to pay for the well, hence no wastelands or landscape. You need to gain life, so 4 wurmcoils with cavern.
The spine is meant to be sacced with trading post ,netting you a card and reusing it for a soft lock.
Staff and elixir are 1-ofs for the I win button, since you lose tempo to set up the shenanigans.

How does this deck get by with only 21 lands?

The lack of Ugin/Karn is also interesting...

Airwave
06-30-2015, 10:13 AM
Great sideboarding guide, thanks! Pithing Needle seems to missing from the sideboard though.

Thanks, Pithing Needle replaces Spine of Ish Sah in the sideboard, forgot to change that!

Bobmans
06-30-2015, 10:31 AM
I'm sorry for the long post. Any (constructive) criticism is welcome! [emoji2]

Great idea, ser. I will be playing MUD aswell during the GP. Wanna meet up there with other MUD players?

I have scanned the boarding strategies and have a few comments. I'll be trying to be positive and constructive.

you have some matchups where you put in Crucible + Wasteland nr 4 but take out a number of Trinispheres. I would say that this is a weird move since with Trinesphere you can often lock them out of the game. Like Shardless, POX (yes POX plays loam, but it can still lock them out/slows them), Bant (cleanup basics with Sunderig Titan) and Stoneblade.

Also against Sneak you don't bring in Spine nr 2 and take out Platinum Angel?

Batterskull against Elves?

What are the Revokers for against Dredge? LED on the play? Does that happen often enough? And why you take out Ugin vs Dredge? It sweeps the board of zombies and big Golgari Grave-Troll. Also it provides a wincon when the board is stalled under a Trinisphere and blockers from both sides.

Last, but not least. Boarding out Forgemaster package can be great against RUG- and UWR Delver to dodge Stifle. They basicly got a dead card on which they count iot prevent getting zapped by Colossus. MUD has a very solid midgame vs those decks and playing it controllish forces them into Midgame. Ugin is also very strong here.

Airwave
06-30-2015, 11:03 AM
Great idea, ser. I will be playing MUD aswell during the GP. Wanna meet up there with other MUD players?

I have scanned the boarding strategies and have a few comments. I'll be trying to be positive and constructive.

you have some matchups where you put in Crucible + Wasteland nr 4 but take out a number of Trinispheres. I would say that this is a weird move since with Trinesphere you can often lock them out of the game. Like Shardless, POX (yes POX plays loam, but it can still lock them out/slows them), Bant (cleanup basics with Sunderig Titan) and Stoneblade.

Also against Sneak you don't bring in Spine nr 2 and take out Platinum Angel?

Batterskull against Elves?

What are the Revokers for against Dredge? LED on the play? Does that happen often enough? And why you take out Ugin vs Dredge? It sweeps the board of zombies and big Golgari Grave-Troll. Also it provides a wincon when the board is stalled under a Trinisphere and blockers from both sides.

Last, but not least. Boarding out Forgemaster package can be great against RUG- and UWR Delver to dodge Stifle. They basicly got a dead card on which they count iot prevent getting zapped by Colossus. MUD has a very solid midgame vs those decks and playing it controllish forces them into Midgame. Ugin is also very strong here.

Seems like a good idea. Thanks for the comments, I'll make changes.

Some remarks:

- Crucible+Wasteland package can be offensive to break the opponent (+Trini) or defensive. In the latter case Trini can be hurting myself as well and I don't want it to backfire. Pox has Smallpox, Sinkhole and a full set of Wastelands. Yes of course I can lock him, but the opposite can be true as well. I don't like to take that risk. Same goes for Bant with Reliq, it can be very dangerous, especially after mulling. Shardless has a lot of 3+ cards already so I guess Trini doesn't hurt them that much. Against Stoneblade I should keep it in, I'll change that for a Grim monolith.

- There is no Spine in the sideboard, it should have been Pithing Needle (my bad). Otherwise I would have put it in for sure. I took out Platinum Angel because it seems useless. Emrakul will eat it alive.
- Batterskull against Elves isn't the best, but it's a decent beater at least. What else to put in? Keep one more Grim monolith in? I'm not sure.
- Revoker can stay in the sideboard against Dredge, you're right. I'll keep the two Ugin's in.

I'm going to test the Delver matchups without Forgemaster package, maybe it's better indeed.

Silverflame
06-30-2015, 11:43 AM
Seems like a good idea. Thanks for the comments, I'll make changes.

Some remarks:

- Crucible+Wasteland package can be offensive to break the opponent (+Trini) or defensive. In the latter case Trini can be hurting myself as well and I don't want it to backfire. Pox has Smallpox, Sinkhole and a full set of Wastelands. Yes of course I can lock him, but the opposite can be true as well. I don't like to take that risk. Same goes for Bant with Reliq, it can be very dangerous, especially after mulling. Shardless has a lot of 3+ cards already so I guess Trini doesn't hurt them that much. Against Stoneblade I should keep it in, I'll change that for a Grim monolith.

- There is no Spine in the sideboard, it should have been Pithing Needle (my bad). Otherwise I would have put it in for sure. I took out Platinum Angel because it seems useless. Emrakul will eat it alive.
- Batterskull against Elves isn't the best, but it's a decent beater at least. What else to put in? Keep one more Grim monolith in? I'm not sure.
- Revoker can stay in the sideboard against Dredge, you're right. I'll keep the two Ugin's in.

I'm going to test the Delver matchups without Forgemaster package, maybe it's better indeed.

Id' like to add that trinisphere is useful against shardless because of fow and the opponent would have to pay 3 for the cascade.
Usually S&S players won't cast show and tell on g2-3 because we also have game ending permanents, so Spine gets less useful.
Elves can combo faster than us, so it's always useful to have ratchet bombs, silent arbiter and bridge to hold while we try to combo.

Silverflame
06-30-2015, 01:58 PM
How does this deck get by with only 21 lands?

The lack of Ugin/Karn is also interesting...

I didn't brew this deck, but I tested it a bit. The main thing is getting some cloudposts online, specially with vesuva. The lifegain works as timewalks so you can set your board. I had a match against BUG where I got about 38 life from lands (cloudpost, cloudpost, glimmerpost, glimmerpost, vesuva copying glimmerpost, etc) Sure, you will suffer if the opponent landlock you in the first turns, but you can still combo off city/tomb + into monolith into metalworker with greaves or elixir on the field. Overall I didn't few the need for extra lands, except against Lands, as there is no pithing needle on the SB.
SB also have a few tricks. If you managed to do some gy shenanigans on G1, you can side in helm of obedience to use the opponent's leyline or RIP for a win. Contagion Engine is also fun with chalice and ratchet bomb, specially against elves.
I didn't manage to use canonist effectively, as you need to copy a white mana or use cavern, so I sided in against Esper and miracles (they have to choose wisely what to counter).

Airwave
06-30-2015, 03:12 PM
Id' like to add that trinisphere is useful against shardless because of fow and the opponent would have to pay 3 for the cascade.
Usually S&S players won't cast show and tell on g2-3 because we also have game ending permanents, so Spine gets less useful.
Elves can combo faster than us, so it's always useful to have ratchet bombs, silent arbiter and bridge to hold while we try to combo.

You're right, forgot about the cascade. Thanks.

Trinisphere should stay in I guess, probably instead of Chalices/Grim Monoliths.
Agree on Elves btw, think I've got that covered as far as possible in this setup.

On another note: I'm expecting a lot of Miracles, Omnishow and Grixis at Lille.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-30-2015, 10:54 PM
I played in MTGO Fight Club , ... you can win store credit!
free Legacy tournament on Gatherling.com in MTGO.
I went 4-0 with this list, beating Elves , Miracles, and a Cloudpost deck

Wasteland is a house . I think it won me the game against Miracles . Coercive Portal also curves very nicely with the deck (you don't need to waste a Monolith activation to cast it) . The biggest under performing card is always Spine but I keep it in the list in case I want to nuke a Batterskull with it and it's in my hand . I wish there were a better alternative. I used to slot a Triskelion instead which nukes planeswalkers. I kind of want to keep playing Triskelion because it's funky. but it doens't hit Batterskull.


4 Ancient Tomb
2 Blasted Landscape
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
2 Coercive Portal
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Trinisphere
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Sideboard
1 Contagion Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dodecapod
2 Duplicant
1 Omen Machine
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Witchbane Orb

BlackHawkX9
07-01-2015, 04:11 PM
I played in MTGO Fight Club , ... you can win store credit!
free Legacy tournament on Gatherling.com in MTGO.
I went 4-0 with this list, beating Elves , Miracles, and a Cloudpost deck

Wasteland is a house . I think it won me the game against Miracles . Coercive Portal also curves very nicely with the deck (you don't need to waste a Monolith activation to cast it) . The biggest under performing card is always Spine but I keep it in the list in case I want to nuke a Batterskull with it and it's in my hand . I wish there were a better alternative. I used to slot a Triskelion instead which nukes planeswalkers. I kind of want to keep playing Triskelion because it's funky. but it doens't hit Batterskull.


4 Ancient Tomb
2 Blasted Landscape
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
2 Coercive Portal
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Trinisphere
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Sideboard
1 Contagion Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Dodecapod
2 Duplicant
1 Omen Machine
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Witchbane Orb

Doesn't the main deck spine of ish sah get over redundant with the steel hellkite and the 2 ugins? Also, how do you lil the omen machine sideboard? And what do you bring it in against?

Bobmans
07-02-2015, 12:57 AM
Doesn't the main deck spine of ish sah get over redundant with the steel hellkite and the 2 ugins?




The biggest under performing card is always Spine but I keep it in the list in case I want to nuke a Batterskull with it and it's in my hand . I wish there were a better alternative. I used to slot a Triskelion instead which nukes planeswalkers. I kind of want to keep playing Triskelion because it's funky. but it doens't hit Batterskull.


Spine of Ish Sah (out of Forgmaster) has kept me from losing more then once. Last time i was able to take out a summening sickness Mangara of Corondor before it got to untap (he also had Karakas tapped to cast it obviously). I agree that Spine is not a card i want to be running, but happens pretty often that it provides an out that can be fetched by Forgemaster. Where Steel Hellkite is to conditional and Ugin (Karn) is to random. Triskilion might be an alternative, but would have been better in a Welder list. And even there it is not standard.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-02-2015, 10:41 AM
Omen Machine kills Miracles .

They're not able to cast X costs of Entreat The Angels, because they cast it without paying the cost.

The only other way for them to win is with Snapcaster Mage and Jace The Mindsculptor.

I managed to try to cast it in my game against Miracles but it got Force'd

Bobmans
07-02-2015, 11:21 AM
Omen Machine kills Miracles .

They're not able to cast X costs of Entreat The Angels, because they cast it without paying the cost.

The only other way for them to win is with Snapcaster Mage and Jace The Mindsculptor.

I managed to try to cast it in my game against Miracles but it got Force'd
I think it looks better on paper then it is in practice. Yes it shuts down Entreat and their counters. But that does not stop Terminus, Sword to Plowshares, WearTear, Clique, Mentor and like you said SCM and Jace (which so happens to be their main wincon next to entreat). Miracles also often wins thru Clique beats and nowadays a lot run Mentor to. Also they run Sensei's Divining Top, which makes them able to choose what card to flip with Omen Machine. I must admit that the card looks very interesting and being able to drop a bomb nearly each turn seems like a winner. The card has been on my mind the moment i saw it. Still it has not convinced me to try it. The more i think of the card the more i think it is to good to be true.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-02-2015, 11:24 AM
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/72/80/200/283/635714279277720183.png http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/72/30/200/283/635712663973355788.jpeg

PREDICTION

Maybe some new card advantage potential coming to MUD decks. There are a lot of thopters flying around in this set.

On the surface, objectively.. Hangerback Walker isn't a very exciting card. However I am interested in it because of it's scaleability .

I'm wondering if there are any old cards we can combine with these to turn thopters into some kind of advantage

I notice that Hangarback Walker is a rare … but it looks like it could be an uncommon . Maybe there are some crazy combo potentials with it coming that pushed it to being a rare.

oh… Something really good with the land is that you can activate the ability when you're about to forgemaster combo and create a couple artifact dorks. That way when you forgemaster you can keep the rest of the artifacts and your board state from wiping itself. I think by itself it might be worth including just because you can put some artifacts into play with it. Whenever I want to forgemaster I am terrified of wiping my whole board state in case they're holding a Swords to Plowshares. This gives some more resilience to getting hit with a removal spell . I think it's worth running.

potatodavid
07-02-2015, 02:39 PM
Hangerback walker. Unplayable in the deck, far too slow and small for the cost. The 2 thopter land though this could potentially be something. Especially paired with crucible in a stax build. Very interesting.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-02-2015, 04:29 PM
Hangerback walker. Unplayable in the deck, far too slow and small for the cost. The 2 thopter land though this could potentially be something. Especially paired with crucible in a stax build. Very interesting.

I don't think either card is all that exciting , I think the Land is playable maybe as a singleton to help with Forgemaster activations .

but I posted them because I noticed there are some colourless Thopter themed cards in the set, so I marked them as cards to watch in case there is any other thopter cards .

Maybe there are some older cards with sacrifice creature effects that are more playable now with all the thopter stuff around

There's also ,

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mbs/140.jpg

I'm pretty sure some combo potential with Thopter cards is forthcoming

seems crazy to make all this thopter stuff but have nothing to break it with

civet five
07-02-2015, 09:05 PM
I'm interested in Thopter builds too, because I think that with Genesis Chamber and Gaea's Cradle we can generate tons of mana to power out fatties.

Deathrite_Shaman
07-03-2015, 02:31 PM
http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/orbsofwarding.html

http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/orbsofwarding.jpg

Seems awesome against combo and better than Witchbane Orb despite the extra mana. Being able to shut down both Tendrils and Empty the Warren seems great.

Silverflame
07-03-2015, 02:50 PM
I don't think either card is all that exciting , I think the Land is playable maybe as a singleton to help with Forgemaster activations .

but I posted them because I noticed there are some colourless Thopter themed cards in the set, so I marked them as cards to watch in case there is any other thopter cards .

Maybe there are some older cards with sacrifice creature effects that are more playable now with all the thopter stuff around

There's also ,

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mbs/140.jpg

I'm pretty sure some combo potential with Thopter cards is forthcoming

seems crazy to make all this thopter stuff but have nothing to break it with

might be worth on red splashes.
http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/thopterengineer.jpg


Also agree on Orb of Warding.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-03-2015, 04:53 PM
Well I got what I wanted,

An aggressive 3 drop

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/72/128/200/283/635715143498642224.png

If the meta was different and Batterskull didn't exist I would play this .

It either runs into a Batterskull, or a Tarmogoyf .

clonk .

Silverflame
07-05-2015, 11:33 PM
Airwave, how did you fare at Lille? I hope you had a good result.

Airwave
07-06-2015, 05:55 AM
Airwave, how did you fare at Lille? I hope you had a good result.

I went 6-3. I'm quite happy with the result, since it was my first GP, but also a bit sad because I missed out on day 2.

Lost quite a heartbreaking match against Death & Taxes with a triple Wasteland on turn 1,2 and 3 against me in the first game and a terrible luck hand drawing in the third game, which forced me down to 4 cards :frown:

I won against BUG delver, Storm, Burn (2x), Merfolk, Transmute Welder and lost to Death & Taxes, RUG delver, Shardless BUG.

Not quite the opposition I expected.

(nameless one)
07-06-2015, 06:05 AM
I went 6-3. I'm quite happy with the result, since it was my first GP, but also a bit sad because I missed out on day 2.

Lost quite a heartbreaking match against Death & Taxes with a triple Wasteland on turn 1,2 and 3 against me in the first game and a terrible luck hand drawing in the third game, which forced me down to 4 cards :frown:

Will be nice enough and write us how it all went?

Airwave
07-06-2015, 06:06 AM
Will be nice enough and write us how it all went?

My notes are very brief, but I'll try to remember as much as possible and put it up here soon.

Bobmans
07-06-2015, 07:07 AM
Lost quite a heartbreaking match against Death & Taxes with a triple Wasteland on turn 1,2 and 3 against me in the first game and a terrible luck hand drawing in the third game, which forced me down to 4 cards :frown:


Story sounds really familiar. Think i spoke someone at the event telling me this, have we met there?

potatodavid
07-06-2015, 08:44 AM
Well I got what I wanted,

An aggressive 3 drop

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/72/128/200/283/635715143498642224.png

If the meta was different and Batterskull didn't exist I would play this .

It either runs into a Batterskull, or a Tarmogoyf .

clonk .

or Just eats a lightning bolt/abrupt decay.

darkgh0st
07-06-2015, 09:16 AM
BUG is almost an auto-win. Even when double Hymned, we can still come back and beat BUG. RUG is a tough one with Bolts and Ancient Grudge on the side.

Ouch to that triple Wasteland... What a luck that guy had.

Good job getting 6-3!

(nameless one)
07-06-2015, 09:38 AM
BUG is almost an auto-win. Even when double Hymned, we can still come back and beat BUG. RUG is a tough one with Bolts and Ancient Grudge on the side.

Ouch to that triple Wasteland... What a luck that guy had.

Good job getting 6-3!

I don't know about BUG, they always seem to have an answer. Double Hymn is impossible to come back to and an active Lilliana can get too much.

Your best answer is to resolve an early Wurmcoil and hope your resistors are good enough to slow them down.

I think the RUG match up is better actually because they're more susceptible to the deck's resistors.

-----------------
As what we all know, consistency is the problem of the deck. We know that Chalice strategies can be great in the meta (just look at GP Lille).

The question MUD players should be asking is how to be more consistent. A lot of decks achieve this with the blue cartel package but this deck preys on that. Looking at the GP Lille Aggro Loam lists, they achieved this with Life from the Loam with Green Sun's Zenith package. While that route doesn't really match this deck's game plan, there are other things that can be done.

Instead of trying to play catch up with the other deck's consistency, why not slow them down? Chalice and 3sphere already does that but is that enough? People might argue that putting a clock behind it wouldn't make it matter. If you look at the GP Aggro Loam lists, on top of slowing the opponent's cantrip with Chalices and mana denial, they also have GSZenith.

My suggestion is instead of doing that route, why not just go full blown denial like Lands? A lands deck made it big in GP Lille. Instead of relying on Chalice and 3sphere (that can get Decayed and Shattered), why not add more components to slow the opponent? A reliable means to slow the opponent from the very beginning of the game. Isn't that why the deck is called MUD? Because it's like trying to wrestle your way out of the MUD pit. Has anyone reconsider a low casting curve MUD that still uses 12post land package and Metalworker to abuse Winter Orb? What about using Sphere of Resistance as chalice/3sphere "clones". Also, why no Crucible?

Kuldotha Forgemaster is great but having to sacrifice 3 artifacts to it can be a demanding task. Not to mention when the plan backfires, you will just straight lose.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-06-2015, 10:31 AM
The way to play a lower curve is to cut Forgemaster and targets, for Tangle Wire and Smoketack , with Ramroller

That's the magic bullet that a stax shell needs , a good aggressive 3 drop for early game pressure .

Without efficient early game beaters, the tax effects aren't powerful enough

I think Ramroller will change the way the deck is played
I really think it is a better card than it looks. You can turn 1 it with Grim Monolith or a Mox, and then lay down the law with sphere effects. Your opponent might never cast a spell.
Maybe with Lotus Petal

darkgh0st
07-06-2015, 01:26 PM
@nameless one: My stax deck has certainly curved lower than a generic MUD deck, though, I was still not willing to give up Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan. Those two are just very powerful cards. I'm always contemplating how to break Winter Orb, but when the meta is more focused on riding a single Delver to win, or wait till they can play their single card that will win the game (in a combo deck). I didn't think Winter Orb was the lock piece I was looking for.

2cc (15)
4 Chalice of the Void (assume as a 2CC)
4 Grim Monolith
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Phyrexian Revoker

3cc (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Tangle Wire

4cc (7)
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Smokestack

6cc+ (6)
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan

10-Post
7 Sol-lands
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls

SB:
2 Buried Ruin
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cursed Totem
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Trinisphere
2 Spine of Ish Sah

Airwave
07-06-2015, 02:47 PM
Story sounds really familiar. Think i spoke someone at the event telling me this, have we met there?

Yup, we did! I've sent you PM.

Airwave
07-07-2015, 06:00 AM
As promised I've written down a short overview of the matches I played at GP Lille.

Round 1 - BUG Delver
In my experience this is quite a difficult matchup, but not impossible to win.
Game 1: Cavern of Souls on construct wins the game. First I put in a Metalworker which meets an Abrupt Decay, then I put in an uncounterable Forgemaster. I have to wait 2 more turns to get an extra artifact in, but when I do Blightsteel kicks in and seals the game in two swings.
Game: 2: I don't remember exactly what happened here but I think I mulled to 6 and he had a good hand. In the end he had two Tarmogoyfs for lethal but I finally found 8 mana for Ugin. But of course it gets forced, so I scoop.
Game 3: Caverns won me the game again. Turn 1 Grim monolith, Turn 2 Forgemaster, Turn 3 Blightsteel + Lightning Greaves which I just drew. Game!

2-1 (1-0)

Round 2 - Death & Taxes
This matchup feels like a coin flip most of the time. Getting out of the mana lock usually wins the game.
Game 1: I have hand with 3 lands (post, vesuva, cavern), I win the die roll and start with cloudpost. It gets wasted. Same happens with vesuva and cavern. (which was a mistake btw, since I copied his plains which couldn't be wasted, I found out 2 rounds later and called a judge to ask what to do. After 10 (!) minutes of internal judge-discussion the conclusion is that they're not going to do anything about it. Doesn't really matter I guess since my 4th land would have been wasted in that case)
After I stabilize with some new lands I managed to get Forgemaster in play with 2x grim monolith. I also landed a chalice at 1 the turn before to avoid Swords to plowshared.
My opponent has a Thalia, Sword, Batterskull, Stoneforge, Doublestrike dude, Mother of Runes. I go down to 2 life and untap, draw a land and pass the turn. My opponent thinks he has won and attacks with his squad. I sacrifice the grims and forgemaster for Platinum Angel. After reading the card he looks amazed and passes the turn. I draw another land and he topdecks a Jitte which he equips on the doublestriker to take out my Platinum Angel. I lose. Too bad since I had chalice at 1. Only Jitte, Flickerwisp and Mangara could have saved him then, he didn't have any of these in his hand.
Game 2: I don't remember exactly but I trampled him. I think Blightsteel sealed the game in around 5 minutes with a turn 4 kill.
Game 3: I draw a hand with Vesuva, Cavern, Blightsteel, Ugin, Lodestone, Lodestone, Forgemaster. Too slow I guess so I mull to 6. Giving me the exact same hand without the Cavern this time. I mull to 5 and get Grim, Grim, Metalworker, Blightsteel and Lodestone. Damn it! So I mull to 4 and get Tomb, City, Ratchet Bomb and Coercive which I keep. He plays a land and passes. I play Ratchet Bomb and pass. He plays port + thalia. I draw a wasteland and hit his port and pass turn (bomb on 1 counter). He plays another port and revoker on my bomb. I play city but can't play the coercive due to thalia. After that he keeps tapping my city and since my bomb can't do anything I'm locked. Thalia en Revoker kill me.

1-2 (1-1)

Round 3 - Burn
With this MUD-setup I'm quite happy playing burn. With control/planewalker version it's much more difficult.
Game 1: I win the die roll and hit Chalice at 1 and pass. He plays suspend bolt and passes. I'm not sure what I played after that but Metalworker kicked in soon after that. I think it put in Lodestone and Wurmcoil after that which won me the game.
Game 2: This was almost unfair. I played cloudpost and turn 2 Trinisphere, turn 3 Chalice, Turn 4: Lodestone and Turn 5: 2x Thorn of Amethyst. I was at 12 life when Lodestone killed him and he shows me his hand with 2x Price of Progress (I had 3 lands). Fortunately he only had 3 lands and the Prices cost him 5 due to all the tax effects.

2-0 (2-1)

Round 4 - RUG Delver
I'm not afraid of this matchup, but I guess it's only just above even.
Game 1: He won the die roll and plays delver, after that he countered my first three spells I think and wasted a land. I got trampled by Delver (flipped turn 3 I think) and lost.
Game 2: I play chalice which gets forced. No worries since I have 2 metalworker, a cavern and lots of artifact goodies. I play Metalworker which he bolts. Next turn I play another Metalworker which meets Ancient grudge.... ouch. I use Wasteland to take out his only green resource but the turn after he plays Deathrite and has access to green again. This is too much to handle, since he wasted my cloudpost and I couldn't get to enough mana for Ugin.

0-2 (2-2)

Round 5 - Merfolk
This is a great matchup. I like to see the fish :)
Game 1: I win the die roll and keep a crazy hand with 3x tomb, 1x cavern, 1x lodestone, 1x coercive and... 1x platinum. After a lot of selfpain I'm on 8 turn 4. Tapping 3x tomb, 1x Cavern of "Angel" I put in Platinum Angel going down to 2 life. After that I kept using the tombs, hoping he doesn't find an Echoing Truth. But since I keep drawing two cards per turn I find a Chalice and set it on 2. Platinum beats him to dead since he can't block flying. I win the game with a life total of -14 or something :tongue:
Game 2: Turn 1 I put in Grim Monolith + Trinisphere. Quite a good start. When he starts putting in Merfolks I don't to worry about getting forced although he does try. I tap on the trini and says he can't do that. So my Forgemaster resolves and when Blightsteel enters it starts eating fish ;) I win.

2-0 (3-2)

Round 6 - Shardless BUG
Another even matchup somewhat I think. Always difficult to play.
Game 1: I win the die roll and hit Chalice at 1. He wasted my land. I think I had 4 lands to start with so no problem there. I even wasted his next wasteland and after metalworker hits the field he scoops. I think we played a little more than 5 minutes.
Problem is I have only seen 2 wastelands and 1 swamp. No idea what he was on, so I guess it could be Pox. I boarded in 4th wasteland and crucible only since I wasn't sure.
Game 2: I don't remember exactly but I know this was a long game. Just when I though to win he played a Shardless revealing Decay I think. After that a stalemate but he has ancestral running down on counters which delivers card advantage that kills me.
Game 3: I start which chalice which he forced. Turn after I drop Coercive which meets Daze. I had a lot of lands (post, post), 1x Crucible and 2x Ugin I think so thinks are looking good still. But then he puts in Deathrite which effectively kills my Crucible moves. He wasteland both my cloudpost which get me stuck at around 6 mana I think. Not enough for Ugin. Goyf seals the game and day 2 is gone :frown:

1-2 (3-3)

Round 7 - Storm
I'm in the "relax-zone" now since players can't get to day 2 anyway.
Game 1: I landed a Chalice at 1 I think and he scoops.
Game 2: I didn't know what he was playing but I saw some fetch for Blue/Black/Red which got me thinking he was on Grixis. I boarded in the wrong cards therefore. I think I lost to 10 goblin tokens after that.
Game 3: Starting with a fresh board I'm confident in taking this match. I start with cloudpost pass. He plays a land and lion's eye diamond and passes. I play Trinisphere turn 2. He basically is screwed now. After that I think I played a Chalice at 1 and 2 and two Lodestones. Game!

2-1 (4-3)

Round 8 - Burn
Game 1: I land a trinisphere and he is short on lands. I, on the other hand, have around 6 lands since he keeps feeding me with his goblin. It was much appreciated and I used it to put in big guys (lodestone, wurmcoil) and he scoops.
Game 2: Since the airconditiong broke down it really gets hot in Lille. So I make a big mistake here. I manage to get Forgemaster and he has Grim Lavamancer. He passes the turn and I'm on 2 life but have a Chalice at 1 and 2 by then I think. I should've searched for Platinum then but waited to do it in his turn (don't know why, must have been the heat I guess :cool:). He drops a fetch and breaks it, in respond I searched for Platinum but in response he uses grim to kill me. Oops.
Game 3: I played a trinisphere turn 2 and had forgemaster and golem in pretty quick which makes me very certain of the win. He then kicks in Price of progress for 10 damage. I go down to 8. Since I have a wasteland I'm still quite certain he can't kill me but to be sure I play my topdecked chalice at 2 and pass. End of his turn I search for blightsteel and kill him in my turn. Afterwards he tells me the chalice at 2 saved me and showed me his hand which contained Deflecting Palm. I didn't know the card but it would have killed me indeed. Hurray for chalice.

2-1 (5-3)

Round 9 - Transmute-Welder
The organisation kept the best pairing for the last round. I have no idea if it's a good matchup in theory but it sure as hell was fun.
Game 1: He plays great furnace and lands a Welder. Hey, I've found a brother in arms I think. Now I just have to make sure I don't get anything in my graveyard. I play a tomb and pass.
He plays a cavern naming artificer and plays stoneforge. Rather cool, I use the same dudes in my R/W aggro mud deck. Anyway I land a lodestone I think and he plays Tangle wire. Another cool card :)
I tap some of my lands and take a beating but have 2 postlands in now. Turn after I drop a metalworker that blocks Batterskull to save me. Then I drop Ugin, wiping his entire board. He's quite amazed but still has batterskull (without the black token tough). I land another metalworker to block batterskull. I was on 2 life or something and he was around 40 or anything? After that I think I dropped lodestone to block again and Ugin keeps pumping. He returns batterskull to play it again but it's too late since I ultimate Ugin. I draw metalworker and greaves and had staff of domination in play. With just enough artifacts in hands it's game for me.
Game 2: He plays a welder and passes. I play a grim and pass. He plays Transmute artifact a sacs lotus petal. I'm quite amazed since I don't know what the hell he'll search for on 0 mana? He searches wurmcoil and drops it in the grave. How funny is that, I didn't know this was possible. I drop a Wurmcoil turn 2. He welds it in. We have a real wurmcoil showdown. But he keeps welding it in and out giving him tokens. I have lots of mana and staff again so I can tap some of his things now and then but he then plays Dack Fayden! Arghhh. I joke he joined up with the enemy! But scoop afterwards :eyebrow:
Game 3: I play a lot of mana and dropped in Ugin. He searches for Steel hellkite and thinks he has won. But I activate Ugin to deal damage to it and play another Ugin! It damages Steel hellkite to 6. Turn after I drop in a Karn Liberated and that's it. Two big planeswalkers in play for me, he scoops. Yay!

2-1 (6-3)


Some remarks:

- I expected a lot of Miracles, Omniscience and Grixis but saw none! :eyebrow:
- Not sure if this version was the best one to play although it did save me from burn twice.
- Sundering Titan keeps disappointing me. I played it once from my hand for a win-more and could search for it multiple times but never did. Blightsteel always was the better choice.
- I was very happy with my 24 lands. Caverns and Wastelands were much needed and so were the 8 sol lands. Only 2 vesuva never bothered me. I was happy with this setup.
- I never searched up Spine! In the past I needed it for sure so I'm not sure taking it out is a good idea.
- Ugin is great! It takes games by itself. If it lands you win, period.
- I was happy with 4th wasteland + crucible in sideboard. Used it many times.
- The only two cards that didn't see any play were the 2 Tormod's Crypt. I'm going to throw 1 out of there I think.


I'm not sure about what to play next time. I was thinking about building a Winter Orb variant as well so I'm sure going to try that. I'm also very interested in the Transmute-welder deck which seemed fun to play and very strong as well (guy was on 5-2 before and had some terrible terrible luck game 8).

Next to that I think Ghirapur Aether Grid from Origins could really be a thing. We have lots of artifacts just lying around. Using them to shoot creatures and also finish the game in a control deck seems marvelous :smile:

Anyway, sorry for the wallpaper of text, I hope you made it to the end :wink:

darkgh0st
07-07-2015, 07:18 PM
@Airwave: Thank you for the report. I'm interested in hearing your findings about Winter Orb.

Questions:

1) Has the meta changed, taking out Sneak and Show and focusing more on mono-blue Omni-Tell? How do we react to that? (Take out Spine from maindeck?)

2) Helm of Awakening can be a great card. It makes our planeswalkers cheaper. And maybe fits the Rage Extractor deck. Does anyone have other ideas on how this can break the symmetry?

Thank you.

Silverflame
07-10-2015, 06:41 PM
@Airwave: Thank you for the report. I'm interested in hearing your findings about Winter Orb.

Questions:

1) Has the meta changed, taking out Sneak and Show and focusing more on mono-blue Omni-Tell? How do we react to that? (Take out Spine from maindeck?)

2) Helm of Awakening can be a great card. It makes our planeswalkers cheaper. And maybe fits the Rage Extractor deck. Does anyone have other ideas on how this can break the symmetry?

Thank you.

It would need to be a different build to fit the helm.
You could use 4 trinisphere and lots of cards above 3 so it only helps you.
you can use Ancestral Statue and bounce monolith or sundering titan to capitalize. It's not amazing though against a 1 mana tarmogoyf. On a red build you could bounce a Goblin Settler. But it is still sorcery speed and I couldn't find a card to really make it broken.

darkgh0st
07-12-2015, 12:07 PM
I don't know about BUG, they always seem to have an answer. Double Hymn is impossible to come back to and an active Lilliana can get too much.

Your best answer is to resolve an early Wurmcoil and hope your resistors are good enough to slow them down.

I think the RUG match up is better actually because they're more susceptible to the deck's resistors.

-----------------
As what we all know, consistency is the problem of the deck. We know that Chalice strategies can be great in the meta (just look at GP Lille).

The question MUD players should be asking is how to be more consistent. A lot of decks achieve this with the blue cartel package but this deck preys on that. Looking at the GP Lille Aggro Loam lists, they achieved this with Life from the Loam with Green Sun's Zenith package. While that route doesn't really match this deck's game plan, there are other things that can be done.

Instead of trying to play catch up with the other deck's consistency, why not slow them down? Chalice and 3sphere already does that but is that enough? People might argue that putting a clock behind it wouldn't make it matter. If you look at the GP Aggro Loam lists, on top of slowing the opponent's cantrip with Chalices and mana denial, they also have GSZenith.

My suggestion is instead of doing that route, why not just go full blown denial like Lands? A lands deck made it big in GP Lille. Instead of relying on Chalice and 3sphere (that can get Decayed and Shattered), why not add more components to slow the opponent? A reliable means to slow the opponent from the very beginning of the game. Isn't that why the deck is called MUD? Because it's like trying to wrestle your way out of the MUD pit. Has anyone reconsider a low casting curve MUD that still uses 12post land package and Metalworker to abuse Winter Orb? What about using Sphere of Resistance as chalice/3sphere "clones". Also, why no Crucible?

Kuldotha Forgemaster is great but having to sacrifice 3 artifacts to it can be a demanding task. Not to mention when the plan backfires, you will just straight lose.

I really felt the inconsistency from the past 3 events that I went to, especially last friday. It didn't matter what version of the deck I played. There was a game that I mulled to 4 and had a chalice at 1 2nd turn, got raped by hymn, and still won topdecking lands, Lodestone, and Tangle Wire FTW. That's about the best I felt.

As for curving lower, the only couple of things I can think of right now is Porcelain Legionnaire, Arcbound Ravager, Magus of the Moon, Moltensteel Dragon. Otherwise, I'm really close to the edge for the deck's inconsistency. I'd probably give MUD 2 to 3 more tries before giving up on it. I have my eyes set on either RUG or DnT.

keys
07-12-2015, 12:47 PM
Have you tried Coercive Portal or even Crystal Ball as a way to increase consistency?

darkgh0st
07-12-2015, 01:30 PM
Have you tried Coercive Portal or even Crystal Ball as a way to increase consistency?

Yes, 2 Portals.

Rationalist
07-12-2015, 01:59 PM
MUD isn't my primary deck - I'm mostly assembling it because it seems like a good "loaner deck", so I'll cede to the wisdom of the MUD Experts here on this one as I have little experience in the matter: Has anyone considered running with Advice from the Fae?

The build I'm putting together runs a little more combo-y given the expected local meta, and I'm wondering if Advice from the Fae would be worth it to, instead of using Staff of Nin / Coercive Portal to draw 1 card a turn (two turns before it even really "replaces itself") just to go on a 5-card Dig Through Time? It seems like I want Card Quality a lot more than Card Advantage in this archetype.

bruizar
07-12-2015, 07:31 PM
I think Thirst for Knowledge beats Advice from the Fae.

Rationalist
07-12-2015, 07:39 PM
Thirst for Knowledge requires Blue though, so, even if true, that only applies to Blue MUD decks, which is a pretty big sacrifice on the manabase

bruizar
07-12-2015, 07:40 PM
6 mana should get you more than 2 cards... If anything, I'd rather play Beseech the Queen so you can atleast get staff and combo out with metalworker

Bobmans
07-13-2015, 01:28 AM
Otherwise, I'm really close to the edge for the deck's inconsistency. I'd probably give MUD 2 to 3 more tries before giving up on it. I have my eyes set on either RUG or DnT.

DnT shares the same inconsistency we have. The thing is that DnT is more efficient at doing what we do. Friend of mine has been playing DnT for 1,5 years and during last GP Lille he was done with it. We had some discussions about why and the conclusion was that it all depended on topdecking with zero library manipulation (finding 13 lands out of 20 cards, etc).

This deck is and will remain in my cardpool forever. I grew up with artifacts so i will never let it down, but after Lille i wont be playing this to much.

Lowering the manacurve is very good possible. Especially with a Goblin Welder build. Going staxlike with Tangle Wire and Smokestack. Also cutting the big dudes for more Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Crucible, Steel Hellkite, Daretti and even stuff like Voltaic Key and Sensei's Divining Top and put Chalice on the sideboard. Even Covetous Dragon, Moltensteel, Slash Panther become options. However running Ugin effectivly becomes harder in my experience.

Airwave
07-13-2015, 04:57 AM
I really felt the inconsistency from the past 3 events that I went to, especially last friday. It didn't matter what version of the deck I played. There was a game that I mulled to 4 and had a chalice at 1 2nd turn, got raped by hymn, and still won topdecking lands, Lodestone, and Tangle Wire FTW. That's about the best I felt.

As for curving lower, the only couple of things I can think of right now is Porcelain Legionnaire, Arcbound Ravager, Magus of the Moon, Moltensteel Dragon. Otherwise, I'm really close to the edge for the deck's inconsistency. I'd probably give MUD 2 to 3 more tries before giving up on it. I have my eyes set on either RUG or DnT.

Yes, the deck is still inconsistent but I think it's much better than in the past due to cloudpost entering. So yes still inconsistent but also very powerful.

Before GP Lille I played a more controlish version (see page 122) which is far more consistent, because bridges and ratchet bombs buy you time in combination with heavy card advantage.

I'm not sure which version to pursue for now, still testing.

On another note: I've tried and tried to make Winter Orb work since it can wreck any opponent but didn't succeed for now. The only way to make it work is to play lots of artifact mana so that the disadvantage is one-sided. I've tried Vedalken Certarch to keep pressuring the opponent but it's difficult to consequently keep this pressure on... :eyebrow:

BlackHawkX9
07-13-2015, 07:29 AM
I really felt the inconsistency from the past 3 events that I went to, especially last friday. It didn't matter what version of the deck I played. There was a game that I mulled to 4 and had a chalice at 1 2nd turn, got raped by hymn, and still won topdecking lands, Lodestone, and Tangle Wire FTW. That's about the best I felt.

As for curving lower, the only couple of things I can think of right now is Porcelain Legionnaire, Arcbound Ravager, Magus of the Moon, Moltensteel Dragon. Otherwise, I'm really close to the edge for the deck's inconsistency. I'd probably give MUD 2 to 3 more tries before giving up on it. I have my eyes set on either RUG or DnT.

I've been playing MUD for roughly 2 years now. Yes, MUD is a bit inconsistent, but if you want to play the most consistent decks, go play blue. MUD trades a bit of consistency for raw power level. The coercive portal and staff of nin that we have acquired over the past year have added alot of consistency back to the deck. Most of the time, card advantage translates directly to consistency. Plus, playing any deck without a bunch of card draw (i.e. Not blue decks with their bunch of draw), requires us to learn to mulligan better. It took alot of time to learn mulliganing.

dcosiem
07-13-2015, 03:35 PM
Hey, Mud enthusiasts! I've been playing Mud for a while, so here's my two cent advice. The decks is really good when mana is set up in a way that we're able to play our spells correctly that they change the course of the game in our favor. I think the problem with this deck is learning how to keep the right opening hand because that can really make or break our game. I think down the stretch, we want to keep hands that have at least more than 4 lands in it because we're trying to play big spells in early turns like it was in Vintage. I don't think by playing more of a control route does us any favor because at most you can get out on 1 turn is 4 mana (ancient tomb, grim, grim or other varients), maybe even 5 if your play Lotus Petal in your deck. And, Crucible/Smokestack lock is kinda not good anymore in the meta with DRS and Lands around. I think how this deck should be approach is to keep a hand in which you can build enough mana for you to be able to cast your spells. Once our spells resolve, we're almost surely in favor because every spell above 3 is really good in our deck.

darkgh0st
07-13-2015, 03:40 PM
@Bobmans: Didn't know DnT had the same issue as us.

@Airwave: Nifty 1cc card.

@BlackHawkX9: I was looking back at your list and have a few questions: What would you have to take out to fit in 2x Thorn of Amethyst? When would you side in the extra Wurmcoil and Steel Hellkite?


Even when we have 24 (or even 25) lands, we can still end up with 1 lander openers (or unkeepable 2 landers), even after mulling. And for us to survive against a hand with Wasteland, we would need to be having 3 lands as turns come. It even becomes worse when you have City of Traitors and/or Vesuvas. I really want to increase the consistency without giving up too much of that raw power.

Background on my meta, I've been playing mostly against RUG, BUG, RUW Delvers, and Lands recently.

@(nameless one): Comic Connections Oakville started having Legacy FNMs @ 6pm.

bruizar
07-13-2015, 03:41 PM
DnT shares the same inconsistency we have. The thing is that DnT is more efficient at doing what we do. Friend of mine has been playing DnT for 1,5 years and during last GP Lille he was done with it. We had some discussions about why and the conclusion was that it all depended on topdecking with zero library manipulation (finding 13 lands out of 20 cards, etc).

This deck is and will remain in my cardpool forever. I grew up with artifacts so i will never let it down, but after Lille i wont be playing this to much.

Lowering the manacurve is very good possible. Especially with a Goblin Welder build. Going staxlike with Tangle Wire and Smokestack. Also cutting the big dudes for more Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Crucible, Steel Hellkite, Daretti and even stuff like Voltaic Key and Sensei's Divining Top and put Chalice on the sideboard. Even Covetous Dragon, Moltensteel, Slash Panther become options. However running Ugin effectivly becomes harder in my experience.

This is exactly the rationale that I used to create Godo Mud. Moltensteel Dragon and Batterskull / Godo over Wurmcoil were one of my ways to reduce the CC.

Ideally you'd like a low curve with good mana outlets for when you do have access to crazy mana.

BlackHawkX9
07-13-2015, 06:48 PM
@Bobmans: Didn't know DnT had the same issue as us.

@Airwave: Nifty 1cc card.

@BlackHawkX9: I was looking back at your list and have a few questions: What would you have to take out to fit in 2x Thorn of Amethyst? When would you side in the extra Wurmcoil and Steel Hellkite?


Even when we have 24 (or even 25) lands, we can still end up with 1 lander openers (or unkeepable 2 landers), even after mulling. And for us to survive against a hand with Wasteland, we would need to be having 3 lands as turns come. It even becomes worse when you have City of Traitors and/or Vesuvas. I really want to increase the consistency without giving up too much of that raw power.

Background on my meta, I've been playing mostly against RUG, BUG, RUW Delvers, and Lands recently.

@(nameless one): Comic Connections Oakville started having Legacy FNMs @ 6pm.

I made a few modifications since my last list. (Main: -1 sundering titan, +1 platinum emperion, -1 Trinisphere, +1 staff of nin. Board: +1 trinisphere, +2 thorn of amethyst, -1 graffdigger's cage, -1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn, -1 Steel hellkite)

New list.
1 Blightsteel colossus, 4 kuldotha forgemaster, 4 lodestone golem, 4 metalworker, 1 steel hellkite, 1 sundering titan, 1 platinum emperion, 3 wurmcoil engine, 4 chalice of the void, 4 grim monolith, 3 trinisphere, 1 coercive portal, 1 staff of nin, 1 lightning greaves, 1 spine of ish sah, 1 staff of domination, 1 ugin the spirit dragon, 4 ancient tomb, 4 cloudpost, 4 glimmerpost, 3 cavern of souls, 3 city of traitors, 3 wasteland, 3 vesuva. Board: 1 coercive portal, 1 crucible of worlds, 2 pithing needle, 1 spine of ish sah, 2 tormod's crypt, 2 phyrexian revoker, 1 wurmcoil engine, 1 ugin the spirit dragon, 1 wasteland, 2 thorn of amethyst, 1 trinisphere.

The 2nd steel hellkite was in the board for dealing with young pyromancer style decks, but i realized ugin does a way better job doing that, so the platinum emperion and the 4th wurmcoil allow me to to live longer against quick aggressive aggro and heavy burn, and even can take over the games by themselves. I added the staff of nin to the main, because i love the card draw from the coercive portals, but still missed the staff of nin ping for those pesky creatures (young pyro, vendilian clique, snap caster, all of DnT's creatures). I removed the emrakul from my board because it was only there for the older slower show and tells that would freaquently SnT fatty, pass turn, and for cute sneak in's on reanimater's SnT's or for painter. So, decks that are too scarcely seen to be worth the slots.

Deckerator
07-14-2015, 06:04 AM
What are the worst matchups for MUD and why?

Gesendet von meinem SMART-E4 mit Tapatalk

BlackHawkX9
07-14-2015, 08:38 AM
What are the worst matchups for MUD and why?

Gesendet von meinem SMART-E4 mit Tapatalk

In my experience, I would say elves is hands down our worst matchup, because of their ability to get reclamation sage so consistently and recur it over and over. I had an elves player break through 6 lock pieces of mine, then combo off.

Reanimater is weird, with all their counterspells, discard, and equal ability to quickly drop a huge threat early.
Dredge is weird, mainly because of their lack of needed spells. Dredge can still thrive with just ichorid and bridge tokens.

Omni-tell is rough too, they just have so many answers to everything. The key to standing a chance in this match is slamming as many lock pieces until you break through the wall of counterspells. Trinisphere is usually the most important of our lock pieces in this match. And if we can land a chalice on 3, they are done.

RUG is a bit rough if you can't land a chalice for 1, so so much aggression with hate for lands, dudes, and spells all at once.

The new RG lands deck is a weird match in their favor, but I've found that if you hold a wasteland back to stop their depths kill, and chalice for 2 instead of 1, it puts them in such a bad place that you could even kill them with metalworker beat down.


I find BUG, DnT, stoneblade, most tempo style decks, and all the delver decks to be around 50/50, maybe slightly 60/40 or 40/60 depending on the random modifications. That's one of the reasons mud is so good, we hold a good chance against the majority of top tier decks, while absolutely crushing miracles. I think I have like a 90%+ winrate vs miracles.

darkgh0st
07-14-2015, 08:55 AM
I made a few modifications since my last list. (Main: -1 sundering titan, +1 platinum emperion, -1 Trinisphere, +1 staff of nin. Board: +1 trinisphere, +2 thorn of amethyst, -1 graffdigger's cage, -1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn, -1 Steel hellkite)

New list.
1 Blightsteel colossus, 4 kuldotha forgemaster, 4 lodestone golem, 4 metalworker, 1 steel hellkite, 1 sundering titan, 1 platinum emperion, 3 wurmcoil engine, 4 chalice of the void, 4 grim monolith, 3 trinisphere, 1 coercive portal, 1 staff of nin, 1 lightning greaves, 1 spine of ish sah, 1 staff of domination, 1 ugin the spirit dragon, 4 ancient tomb, 4 cloudpost, 4 glimmerpost, 3 cavern of souls, 3 city of traitors, 3 wasteland, 3 vesuva. Board: 1 coercive portal, 1 crucible of worlds, 2 pithing needle, 1 spine of ish sah, 2 tormod's crypt, 2 phyrexian revoker, 1 wurmcoil engine, 1 ugin the spirit dragon, 1 wasteland, 2 thorn of amethyst, 1 trinisphere.

The 2nd steel hellkite was in the board for dealing with young pyromancer style decks, but i realized ugin does a way better job doing that, so the platinum emperion and the 4th wurmcoil allow me to to live longer against quick aggressive aggro and heavy burn, and even can take over the games by themselves. I added the staff of nin to the main, because i love the card draw from the coercive portals, but still missed the staff of nin ping for those pesky creatures (young pyro, vendilian clique, snap caster, all of DnT's creatures). I removed the emrakul from my board because it was only there for the older slower show and tells that would freaquently SnT fatty, pass turn, and for cute sneak in's on reanimater's SnT's or for painter. So, decks that are too scarcely seen to be worth the slots.

Thanks for the updated SB list and answers.

Airwave
07-14-2015, 08:59 AM
In my experience, I would say elves is hands down our worst matchup, because of their ability to get reclamation sage so consistently and recur it over and over. I had an elves player break through 6 lock pieces of mine, then combo off.

Reanimater is weird, with all their counterspells, discard, and equal ability to quickly drop a huge threat early.
Dredge is weird, mainly because of their lack of needed spells. Dredge can still thrive with just ichorid and bridge tokens.

Omni-tell is rough too, they just have so many answers to everything. The key to standing a chance in this match is slamming as many lock pieces until you break through the wall of counterspells. Trinisphere is usually the most important of our lock pieces in this match. And if we can land a chalice on 3, they are done.

RUG is a bit rough if you can't land a chalice for 1, so so much aggression with hate for lands, dudes, and spells all at once.

The new RG lands deck is a weird match in their favor, but I've found that if you hold a wasteland back to stop their depths kill, and chalice for 2 instead of 1, it puts them in such a bad place that you could even kill them with metalworker beat down.


I find BUG, DnT, stoneblade, most tempo style decks, and all the delver decks to be around 50/50, maybe slightly 60/40 or 40/60 depending on the random modifications. That's one of the reasons mud is so good, we hold a good chance against the majority of top tier decks, while absolutely crushing miracles. I think I have like a 90%+ winrate vs miracles.

Elves is difficult I'd say but not the worst. A turn 1 chalice usually breaks them. Even if they can get to 4 mana soon there is lots of time to hit a forgemaster or anything else on the board soon enough.

I think worst matchup is Jund, but I think there aren't that many people playing this anymore... good for us! :cool:

BlackHawkX9
07-14-2015, 09:36 AM
Elves is difficult I'd say but not the worst. A turn 1 chalice usually breaks them. Even if they can get to 4 mana soon there is lots of time to hit a forgemaster or anything else on the board soon enough.

I think worst matchup is Jund, but I think there aren't that many people playing this anymore... good for us! :cool:

A few tournaments ago, I faced an elves deck that beat me in like 5 of his turns. Game 1 he won the die roll, dropped a mana dork turn one, I played a land and passed expecting to trinisphere turn 2, he glimpse, combo'd. Game 2, I turn 1 chalice for 1, he cavern, mana dork again, then I landed something, he dropped a reclamation sage on me, then combo'd with glimpse again, turn 3. . I play the elves match alot, with a guy in my play test group, and he wins the match like 75% of the time. The fast pressure and reoccurring reclamation sage is rough. The have so many ways to either draw it, natural order, or green sun for it, plus game 2 gets worse when they bring in reclamation sage 2, and abrupt decays. Its really bad for us. . The only routes that I win, is when I turn 1 trinisphere, turn 2 lodestone, and keep casting anything else from there.

potatodavid
07-14-2015, 10:05 AM
Elves is a MU that just sucks. I recommend contagion engine for such occasions. Can be a complete blowout if it lands, but yeah that deck blows to play against.

BlackHawkX9
07-14-2015, 11:04 AM
Elves is a MU that just sucks. I recommend contagion engine for such occasions. Can be a complete blowout if it lands, but yeah that deck blows to play against.

I've always found contagion engine to be a very poor choice, unless you are running welder. The pithing needle on heritage druid and revoker on wirewood symbiote seems to work well, and if the go for the hoof kill, just last second forgemaster for platinum whoever. Either way, its a poop match for us.

darkgh0st
07-14-2015, 11:10 AM
How would Torpor Orb do in that match up?

BlackHawkX9
07-14-2015, 11:33 AM
How would Torpor Orb do in that match up?

I ran 2 torpor orbs in my board for elves for a while. It works amazing against them, because it shuts off all their dudes, and outlets for mana, to make them a bad aggro deck until they hard (1 card a turn) find an abrupt decay. The only reason I no longer run them, is because they only work well in that match, and very few other places, and elves doesn't seem to pop up much in the current meta. They are a ok option against stoneblade for their stoneforge and cliques, sometimes snap caster. But every time I had a torpor orb in, I always wanted something else. . I really want to cram another sundering titan in the 75 somewhere, he destroys all those tri colored tempo decks.

bruizar
07-15-2015, 04:28 AM
On elves:

My rg daretti list was unable to lose from elves. Its a farcry from mud but i think its important to mention here. The reason that list performs so well is because the density of problematic cards is high. Between contagion engine, chalice of the void, ensnaring bridge, punishing fire and serrated arrows, its hard for them to squeeze a win out. Id like to advocate serrated arrows and contagion engine together if you have room for it. Works very well.

BlackHawkX9
07-15-2015, 08:20 AM
On elves:

My rg daretti list was unable to lose from elves. Its a farcry from mud but i think its important to mention here. The reason that list performs so well is because the density of problematic cards is high. Between contagion engine, chalice of the void, ensnaring bridge, punishing fire and serrated arrows, its hard for them to squeeze a win out. Id like to advocate serrated arrows and contagion engine together if you have room for it. Works very well.

Anything with punishing fire engine will destroy little creature decks. Punishing daretti, sounds like fun. Got a list you could share?

Chaam
07-17-2015, 03:50 PM
What do you guys think of my list? I'm not a fan of the current Legacy MUD lists so I am thinking of trying out a more vintage shops like version.

Creature (12)
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem

Artifact (28)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire

Land (20)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Mutavault
2x Cavern of Souls

Haven't come up with a SB yet.

Admiral_Arzar
07-17-2015, 03:53 PM
What do you guys think of my list? I'm not a fan of the current Legacy MUD lists so I am thinking of trying out a more vintage shops like version.

Creature (12)
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem

Artifact (28)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire

Land (20)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Mutavault
2x Cavern of Souls

Haven't come up with a SB yet.

I would only consider playing something like this if you are REALLY good at winning the die roll. You may want to move Thorns to the board and play Ratchet Bombs or Crucibles though. Bomb answers problems and Crucible allows Wastelock while helping you recover from Wasteland.

darkgh0st
07-18-2015, 01:22 AM
I gave MUD another try today, I wasn't expecting much before the start of the tourney.

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated

Some ideas was lifted from BlackhawkX9`s decklist, having 3 Vesuvas (I normally run 2), 4th Wasteland and Crucible in SB, 2-2 Pithing Needle-Phyrexian Revoker split.


Round 1: Burn

Game 1:
I lost the die roll and am on the play. I mull to 6, getting rid of a 1 land hand.
He plays a Lava Spike, I get a Chalice at 1 from an Ancient Tomb. I'm at 15
He land passed and I Glimmerpost and Trinisphere on my 2nd turn. I'm at 14
He plays nothing, and I play Cavern of Souls and Lodestone on 3rd turn. I'm at 12.
He gets his land and Price of Progress me for 6. I'm at 6. I get another Glimmerpost out to gain 2 (I'm at 8) with 4 non-basic lands to run out a Forgemaster, my rationale being I won't win if I don't play it and lose a turn earlier if he has Price again.
He Price of Progress me for 8 (0-1)

SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trading Post

Game 2:
I kept my sort of okay 7.
I play Glimmerpost. He plays a land and Monastery Swiftspear.
I play Glimmerpost again and Chalice for 1. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wasteland and Trinisphere. He plays a land.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Lodestone Golem. He plays a Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.
I play a Cloudpost and Waste his Ring hoping to lock him down, swinging in for 5. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wurmcoil and swing. He has a land but is too late to come back. (1-1)

Game 3:
I mull to 5 after 2 one landers. I had Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Thorn and City of Traitors. Which seemed great...
but not really as I misplayed the order of my cards, playing Thorn of Amethyst 2nd turn, and Chalice on the 3rd. I was dead before my 4th turn as he had a bunch of 1cc bolts, Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear and Fireblast.
I should have Chaliced for 1 even if it was to attract Smash to Smithereens (which he didn't have), played the Thorn and would stop his plays for a bit as he was stuck at 2 lands. (1-2)


Round 2: Merfolks

Game 1:
I lose the die roll and on draw. I knew he was playing Merfolks before the match. My opener had 2 lands being Vesuva and City of Traitors, and mulled to a 3 lander 6.
He plays an Island and passes... (weak start for Merfolks) I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1.
He plays another Island and Silvergill Adept revealing Master of the Pearl Trident. I play a Wasteland and try a Trinisphere, which I was surprised to resolve...
He plays a Mutavault and the Master of the Pearl Trident and swings for 3. All I remember from here is getting pounded some more, Wasting his Mutavault, getting a Lodestone Golem, then a Forgemaster to fetch Blightsteel for the win. (1-0)

SB: -2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Coercive Portal, -3 Trinisphere
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wasteland, +1 Crucible of Worlds

Game 2:
I mull to a 3 lander 5, having 1 or no lands in my 7 and 6.
I don't remember much from this match other than seeing Cursecatcher, playing Cloudpost, copying my Cloudpost with a Vesuva, getting my cloudpost enchanted with something that turns it into an Island, resolving a Metalworker, seeing a True-Name Nemesis then Aether Vial, me resolving a Lodestone Golem through a Cavern, seeing another Cursecatcher, me getting a Ratchet Bomb and blowing it for 1 before Vial gets to 3, then a Wurmcoil through a Cavern, then a Sundering Titan through a Cavern, him copying my Titan. Staff of Domination got to resolve, but I had no artifacts in hand. I went to gain some life (worrying being low on life), killing his Sundering Titan with a Spine of Ish Sah (forgetting that all I needed to do was tap the Phantismal Image copyfish) then draw some cards in the succeeding turns to complete requirements to go infinite. (2-0)


Round 3: Reanimator - being the most epic game of the night.

Game 1:
I win the die roll and keep my 7.
I Glimmerpost, he discards Griselbrand.
I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1, which resolves and ruins his plan. He plays a land and passes.
I Glimmerpost and Metalworker, which resolved. He plays a land and exhumes his Griselbrand.
I play Cavern of Souls for Wurm and get a Wurmcoil out. I remember resolving a Trinisphere, which gave him a hard time countering my spells (being stuck at 2 lands), and I also got to sneak in a Coercive Portal while he was at 2 lands. Lodestone got countered when he got 3 lands, as well as Staff of Domination.
We lifelink back and forth, while playing spells, I think for at least 5 turns as I get 3 Ancient Tombs out and carefully math out how I'm going to spend my life :rolleyes: I had 2 Chalices, but didn't want to run them out as he used the draw 7 twice, and just lose some life for an unresolved spell.
I get a Kuldotha Forgemaster through a Cavern, and 2nd one through his maindeck Show and Tell?!?! He ran out a Grave Titan. My first arti-fetch was a Spine of Ish Sah to get rid of his Griselbrand. He gets it back using Exhume, while I respond with Kuldotha and arti-fetch the Blightsteel Colossus (though running really low on life. I remember being down to 3, then up to 5 with some Glimmerpost and -1 hits from Griselbrand and my Wurmcoil), saccing Wurmcoil to fetch for another Wurmcoil. He was chump-blocking with the tokens he built up and eventually his Grave Titan, then Griselbrand to stop the poison from reaching to 10. I eventually drew my 3rd Wurmcoil (I think about 2-3 turns after) and Cavern it in for an overkill. (1-0)

At this point, the Miracles player finish playing his rounds and was mocking us how we were slower than Miracles. Both me and the Reanimator player were thinking hard on each turn from that game. He eventually says he`ll give me the win as he doesn`t want to play another game as it was too draining.


Round 4: Reanimator (different guy)

Game 1:
I`m on the play and mull to 6.
He got the classic 1-2-3 punch from MUD. (Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem) then a Wurmcoil for the win, and him not being able to set up his Reanimation after having Elesh Norn and the 7/11 blue artifact creature in his yard. (1-0)

SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Sundering Titan
+2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Trading Post

Game 2:
I don't remember much from this game other than getting my Chalice Duressed, him being forced to pitch Tidespout Tyrant to counter my Trinisphere, me resolving my Metalworker and Forgemaster. He Thoughtseized my last card in hand, which was Ensnaring Bridge that I didn`t need to play. He also countered a Trading Post that I just drew from a turn. Then he Exhumed a Jin Gitaxis, while the Forgemaster was active. I fetched a Blightsteel and bring back Forgemaster. During my turn, I played a Chalice @ 0 and Grim Monolith to fetch a Spine of Ish Sah for the win. (2-0)


Overall, my expectations not to do good today was crushed and I had a lot of fun playing MUD, having a 3-1 record. I feel like I played MUD wrong the past couple times. It should be played with Metalworker AND Forgemaster. (I`ve been doing one without the other)

Out of the 8 hands I got, I kept my initial 7 twice, mulled to 6 four times, and mulled to 5 two times. Seems pretty good still.

From my past games, I haven`t won a match against Burn, and I haven`t lost a match against Merfolks.

I didn`t get to use Lightning Greaves or Ugin this tourney.

I used Kuldotha Forgemaster, 6 to 7 times? (3 times in one Reanimator game) and most of the fetches with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere protection (from Stifle). I used to not like him so much being a 3-for-1, but now I believe he is one of those components that fixes our inconsistencies and a place to put our extra artifacts lying around on the battelfield.

I have won a lot of times with Blightsteel Colossus. He is just amazing.

Oh, and that maindeck Spine of Ish Sah had made 2-3 of my games easier or even winnable just because I can fetch for it. I don`t think I`d move it out.

BlackHawkX9
07-18-2015, 06:45 AM
I gave MUD another try today, I wasn't expecting much before the start of the tourney.

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated

Some ideas was lifted from BlackhawkX9`s decklist, having 3 Vesuvas (I normally run 2), 4th Wasteland and Crucible in SB, 2-2 Pithing Needle-Phyrexian Revoker split.


Round 1: Burn

Game 1:
I lost the die roll and am on the play. I mull to 6, getting rid of a 1 land hand.
He plays a Lava Spike, I get a Chalice at 1 from an Ancient Tomb. I'm at 15
He land passed and I Glimmerpost and Trinisphere on my 2nd turn. I'm at 14
He plays nothing, and I play Cavern of Souls and Lodestone on 3rd turn. I'm at 12.
He gets his land and Price of Progress me for 6. I'm at 6. I get another Glimmerpost out to gain 2 (I'm at 8) with 4 non-basic lands to run out a Forgemaster, my rationale being I won't win if I don't play it and lose a turn earlier if he has Price again.
He Price of Progress me for 8 (0-1)

SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trading Post

Game 2:
I kept my sort of okay 7.
I play Glimmerpost. He plays a land and Monastery Swiftspear.
I play Glimmerpost again and Chalice for 1. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wasteland and Trinisphere. He plays a land.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Lodestone Golem. He plays a Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.
I play a Cloudpost and Waste his Ring hoping to lock him down, swinging in for 5. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wurmcoil and swing. He has a land but is too late to come back. (1-1)

Game 3:
I mull to 5 after 2 one landers. I had Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Thorn and City of Traitors. Which seemed great...
but not really as I misplayed the order of my cards, playing Thorn of Amethyst 2nd turn, and Chalice on the 3rd. I was dead before my 4th turn as he had a bunch of 1cc bolts, Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear and Fireblast.
I should have Chaliced for 1 even if it was to attract Smash to Smithereens (which he didn't have), played the Thorn and would stop his plays for a bit as he was stuck at 2 lands. (1-2)


Round 2: Merfolks

Game 1:
I lose the die roll and on draw. I knew he was playing Merfolks before the match. My opener had 2 lands being Vesuva and City of Traitors, and mulled to a 3 lander 6.
He plays an Island and passes... (weak start for Merfolks) I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1.
He plays another Island and Silvergill Adept revealing Master of the Pearl Trident. I play a Wasteland and try a Trinisphere, which I was surprised to resolve...
He plays a Mutavault and the Master of the Pearl Trident and swings for 3. All I remember from here is getting pounded some more, Wasting his Mutavault, getting a Lodestone Golem, then a Forgemaster to fetch Blightsteel for the win. (1-0)

SB: -2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Coercive Portal, -3 Trinisphere
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wasteland, +1 Crucible of Worlds

Game 2:
I mull to a 3 lander 5, having 1 or no lands in my 7 and 6.
I don't remember much from this match other than seeing Cursecatcher, playing Cloudpost, copying my Cloudpost with a Vesuva, getting my cloudpost enchanted with something that turns it into an Island, resolving a Metalworker, seeing a True-Name Nemesis then Aether Vial, me resolving a Lodestone Golem through a Cavern, seeing another Cursecatcher, me getting a Ratchet Bomb and blowing it for 1 before Vial gets to 3, then a Wurmcoil through a Cavern, then a Sundering Titan through a Cavern, him copying my Titan. Staff of Domination got to resolve, but I had no artifacts in hand. I went to gain some life (worrying being low on life), killing his Sundering Titan with a Spine of Ish Sah (forgetting that all I needed to do was tap the Phantismal Image copyfish) then draw some cards in the succeeding turns to complete requirements to go infinite. (2-0)


Round 3: Reanimator - being the most epic game of the night.

Game 1:
I win the die roll and keep my 7.
I Glimmerpost, he discards Griselbrand.
I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1, which resolves and ruins his plan. He plays a land and passes.
I Glimmerpost and Metalworker, which resolved. He plays a land and exhumes his Griselbrand.
I play Cavern of Souls for Wurm and get a Wurmcoil out. I remember resolving a Trinisphere, which gave him a hard time countering my spells (being stuck at 2 lands), and I also got to sneak in a Coercive Portal while he was at 2 lands. Lodestone got countered when he got 3 lands, as well as Staff of Domination.
We lifelink back and forth, while playing spells, I think for at least 5 turns as I get 3 Ancient Tombs out and carefully math out how I'm going to spend my life :rolleyes: I had 2 Chalices, but didn't want to run them out as he used the draw 7 twice, and just lose some life for an unresolved spell.
I get a Kuldotha Forgemaster through a Cavern, and 2nd one through his maindeck Show and Tell?!?! He ran out a Grave Titan. My first arti-fetch was a Spine of Ish Sah to get rid of his Griselbrand. He gets it back using Exhume, while I respond with Kuldotha and arti-fetch the Blightsteel Colossus (though running really low on life. I remember being down to 3, then up to 5 with some Glimmerpost and -1 hits from Griselbrand and my Wurmcoil), saccing Wurmcoil to fetch for another Wurmcoil. He was chump-blocking with the tokens he built up and eventually his Grave Titan, then Griselbrand to stop the poison from reaching to 10. I eventually drew my 3rd Wurmcoil (I think about 2-3 turns after) and Cavern it in for an overkill. (1-0)

At this point, the Miracles player finish playing his rounds and was mocking us how we were slower than Miracles. Both me and the Reanimator player were thinking hard on each turn from that game. He eventually says he`ll give me the win as he doesn`t want to play another game as it was too draining.


Round 4: Reanimator (different guy)

Game 1:
I`m on the play and mull to 6.
He got the classic 1-2-3 punch from MUD. (Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem) then a Wurmcoil for the win, and him not being able to set up his Reanimation after having Elesh Norn and the 7/11 blue artifact creature in his yard. (1-0)

SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Sundering Titan
+2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Trading Post

Game 2:
I don't remember much from this game other than getting my Chalice Duressed, him being forced to pitch Tidespout Tyrant to counter my Trinisphere, me resolving my Metalworker and Forgemaster. He Thoughtseized my last card in hand, which was Ensnaring Bridge that I didn`t need to play. He also countered a Trading Post that I just drew from a turn. Then he Exhumed a Jin Gitaxis, while the Forgemaster was active. I fetched a Blightsteel and bring back Forgemaster. During my turn, I played a Chalice @ 0 and Grim Monolith to fetch a Spine of Ish Sah for the win. (2-0)


Overall, my expectations not to do good today was crushed and I had a lot of fun playing MUD, having a 3-1 record. I feel like I played MUD wrong the past couple times. It should be played with Metalworker AND Forgemaster. (I`ve been doing one without the other)

Out of the 8 hands I got, I kept my initial 7 twice, mulled to 6 four times, and mulled to 5 two times. Seems pretty good still.

From my past games, I haven`t won a match against Burn, and I haven`t lost a match against Merfolks.

I didn`t get to use Lightning Greaves or Ugin this tourney.

I used Kuldotha Forgemaster, 6 to 7 times? (3 times in one Reanimator game) and most of the fetches with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere protection (from Stifle). I used to not like him so much being a 3-for-1, but now I believe he is one of those components that fixes our inconsistencies and a place to put our extra artifacts lying around on the battelfield.

I have won a lot of times with Blightsteel Colossus. He is just amazing.

Oh, and that maindeck Spine of Ish Sah had made 2-3 of my games easier or even winnable just because I can fetch for it. I don`t think I`d move it out.

You got some weird matches there. Reanimater is always a weird match, and tidespout tyrant is king there. The 3rd vesuva is kinda a flex spot, as i can't decide if I would like it better as something else. All your matches were kinda weird here. I haven't played any of those matchups since GP new jersey, when we still had the treasure cruise meta. I feel like the way I run mud with this list is better suited to handle a more tempo meta, with bug, rug, blade, blah blah.

How do you like the 2nd greaves main? I can never really justify it. Especially being side by side with the 2 ugin build feels weird.

darkgh0st
07-18-2015, 09:50 AM
The people at the shop I went to all have 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th legacy decks, so they switch things around a lot. I think I was the only one who stuck to 1 type of deck. There was DnT, Miracles, Jund, 2x Lands, and ShardlessBUG that I dodged because of that loss to Burn. One of the Lands and ShardlessBUG got the 3-0-1 ID-ing their last match to each other.

I never got to see any of the Greaves and drew 1 Ugin in my 1st Reanimator match, which I couldn't cast due to having 3 tombs and low life. I slapped the 2nd Greaves to try and turn the clock faster and the 2nd Ugin to make room in the SB. Those would have been main deck Revokers I ran a couple tournaments back.

bruizar
07-18-2015, 02:44 PM
Anything with punishing fire engine will destroy little creature decks. Punishing daretti, sounds like fun. Got a list you could share?

It's not a MUD list, but have a look:


4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge

darkgh0st
07-19-2015, 11:29 PM
@Airwave: I noticed in your SB strategy post in page 138 that you side out Trinispheres against ShardlessBUG. Don't we want 4 in that match-up instead to make the cascade cost 3?

Airwave
07-20-2015, 04:57 AM
@Airwave: I noticed in your SB strategy post in page 138 that you side out Trinispheres against ShardlessBUG. Don't we want 4 in that match-up instead to make the cascade cost 3?

Yes they should stay in, it was mentioned before.
I'll change the post :smile:

darkgh0st
07-20-2015, 06:14 AM
Yes they should stay in, it was mentioned before.
I'll change the post :smile:

Sorry, it was indeed, I just read the rest of page 138.

Alex Holland
07-23-2015, 04:17 AM
Im fascinated by the origin card flameshadow conjuring.. Seems like value town in theory. Drop a forgemaster? Get a free one with haste for a turn wich u can sac. Drop a metalworker? Get a free one to make mana instantly. Drop a godo bandit warlord? Get 2 batterskull and keep 1 godo! Drop a goblin settler? destroy 2 target lands!!!! throw in some bonfire and blood moon.......

Airwave
07-24-2015, 04:16 AM
Im fascinated by the origin card flameshadow conjuring.. Seems like value town in theory. Drop a forgemaster? Get a free one with haste for a turn wich u can sac. Drop a metalworker? Get a free one to make mana instantly. Drop a godo bandit warlord? Get 2 batterskull and keep 1 godo! Drop a goblin settler? destroy 2 target lands!!!! throw in some bonfire and blood moon.......

I'd say:

Master Transmuter
Myr Battlesphere

But I'm not sure it's fast enough...

Alex Holland
07-24-2015, 04:27 AM
I'd say:

Master Transmuter
Myr Battlesphere

But I'm not sure it's fast enough...


Drop battlesphere... get 4 tokens get a double with haste (that dies eot) with 4 extra tokens... tap 8 tokens attack with a 12/7 haste that upon attacking also deals 12 damage to player... thas kinda ok for 7 mana i guess?

Best thing is it doesnt require hoops, the enchantment is good with most cards in the deck anyway.

Silverflame
07-24-2015, 09:39 AM
Drop battlesphere... get 4 tokens get a double with haste (that dies eot) with 4 extra tokens... tap 8 tokens attack with a 12/7 haste that upon attacking also deals 12 damage to player... thas kinda ok for 7 mana i guess?

Best thing is it doesnt require hoops, the enchantment is good with most cards in the deck anyway.

8 mana, as you have to pay for the copy, but still good. Copying a sundering titan is mostly auto win too. Better go with transmuter or welder along with it, though, flameshadow doesn't care if you cast it or not.

Alex Holland
07-24-2015, 09:58 AM
8 mana, as you have to pay for the copy, but still good. Copying a sundering titan is mostly auto win too. Better go with transmuter or welder along with it, though, flameshadow doesn't care if you cast it or not.

transmuter isnt played in any MUD builds i know of. Just keep it simple at red and the usual suspects get better to. play welder get an extra welder with haste? with lightning greaves on table? thats just crazy funny wanna try it anyway i can stufff!

Silverflame
07-24-2015, 11:11 AM
transmuter isnt played in any MUD builds i know of. Just keep it simple at red and the usual suspects get better to. play welder get an extra welder with haste? with lightning greaves on table? thats just crazy funny wanna try it anyway i can stufff!

Yup, transmuter hasn't been played effectively... so far. I still believe a blue MUD may be viable one day.
Anyway, you'd probably need 4 cavern and 5-6 moxen, right? Only wurmcoil and lodestones wouldn't synergize with flameshadow, so maybe MD 1-2 hellkite, 2 battlesphere, 2-3 titans?

Silverflame
07-24-2015, 05:31 PM
What are your thoughts on using Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb?
hitting affinity lands and being able to activate if the opponent will destroy it in response to adding a counter seens good enough for losing the ability to destroy enchantments and planeswalkers (mostly relevant for BUG and Landstill). Am I missing something?

Ganfar
07-25-2015, 10:49 AM
What are your thoughts on using Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb?
hitting affinity lands and being able to activate if the opponent will destroy it in response to adding a counter seens good enough for losing the ability to destroy enchantments and planeswalkers (mostly relevant for BUG and Landstill). Am I missing something?

Ratchet Bomb can kill enchantments too.

darkgh0st
07-25-2015, 12:21 PM
@Silverflame: Do you see Affinity more, or Enchantress more in your area? BUG is very dominant, but I don't normally see Bomb tick up to 3 to blow a Lilli. Also, a 1/1 split helps in the DnT match-up vs Revokers.

EDIT: @Chaam: You can try something like this http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/300114

Dice_Box
07-25-2015, 01:09 PM
What do you guys think of my list? I'm not a fan of the current Legacy MUD lists so I am thinking of trying out a more vintage shops like version.

Creature (12)
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem

Artifact (28)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire

Land (20)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Mutavault
2x Cavern of Souls

Haven't come up with a SB yet.
I do not think this can work. The strength of the vintage deck is the shear weight of early mana. You can then push your advantage though the imbalance you create when you increass the amount of mana you drop a turn. I do not think 8 Sol lands is a strong enough base to build around that concept. You will have real issues pulling ahead and City leaving the battlefield over and over will hurt.

Silverflame
07-26-2015, 01:09 PM
@Silverflame: Do you see Affinity more, or Enchantress more in your area? BUG is very dominant, but I don't normally see Bomb tick up to 3 to blow a Lilli. Also, a 1/1 split helps in the DnT match-up vs Revokers.


My thoughts exactly, usually I don't even side in bombs against BUG. In my meta, there is only 1 enchantress that I know of and several affinity. Maybe I shoul up to 3 Ugin to deal with solitary confinement and go for the kegs.

Airwave
07-27-2015, 05:20 AM
My thoughts exactly, usually I don't even side in bombs against BUG. In my meta, there is only 1 enchantress that I know of and several affinity. Maybe I shoul up to 3 Ugin to deal with solitary confinement and go for the kegs.

Ratchet Bomb also hits Counterbalance and Blood Moon

I'd always go for bomb instead of keg.

Alex Holland
07-27-2015, 02:09 PM
In my normal deck i play 3 ratchet bombs. Powder keg is crap.

What do you think of this? Marit-liege-eldrazi-ugin-karn madness :laugh:

2 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein
2 Cavern of Souls

3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Expedition Map
2 Scroll Rack

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
4 Spellskite
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

3 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-28-2015, 09:38 AM
Those of you playing Punishing Fire with Welder and Daretti have you tried making use of,

Mindless Automaton - 4

Creature - Construct

Enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it.

{1}, Discard a card: Put a +1/+1 counter on this.

Remove two +1/+1 counters from this: Draw a card.

0/0

//

Has Skyship Weatherlight been discussed at all?

costs 4, Legendary Artifact,

When it comes into play search your library for any number of creatures and/or artifacts, exile them, then shuffle your library.

4, T: Choose a card at random that was exiled with Skyship Weatherlight then place that card into its owner's hand.

note.. You can exile any number of cards, or even just 1 card, it doesn't wipe your board, it doesn't die to creature removal.

It doesn't even replace your draw .

..

The stack I would pick would be something like 1 Wurmcoil , 1 Coercive Portal, and Chalice of the Void depending
etc

the strategy would be take a few singletons that you want in play that game. so that you maximize the usefulness of the card.

or take Metalworker / Staff Of Domination

then spend two turns drawing them, put them into play lol...

Alternatively you can use it mid-late game to pull out all the mana rocks, and other things you don't want to draw out of the deck

RPGbudgie
07-28-2015, 11:05 AM
I played MUD at our local $5 Monday night legacy. I went with a standard 12 post build making space for 2 ugin and 1 karn. I also favor cavern over wastes. I went 3-1 and had a great game against Sneak Show.

R1: Nic Fit Scapewish 2-0

Not much to say about these games. Game one he shredded my hand of threats but I drew Karn and then Ugin. Game 2 I had chalices on 1, 2 and 3.

R2: Sneak and Show

Game 1 I mulled a 7 with no land, then I mulled a 6 with no land, then I thought real hard and mulled a 5 with no land and drew the following 4:

Grim monolith, Metalworker, Greaves, Scepter of Domination

I say fuck it and kept the hand. I'm on the play so I pass to him turn 1. He plays ponder and shuffles. I top decked an ancient tomb (woo) and played monolith->metalworker. They both resolved. His next turn he says "do I just go for it? I think I just go for it." He plays city of traitors and casts show and tell. I put in scepter and he puts in emrakul. My next turn I draw a cavern and play it. On his turn, before he attacks, I tap down emrakul using metalworker and revealing boots. Next turn I draw kuldotha and pass. On his turn he taps for mana, plays a land, and drops sneak attack. I tap down emrakul again and survive another turn. I draw a card, see some sort of artifact and go infinite with metalworker/staff.

R3 Dragon Stompy 2-0

I'm not convinced this is a great matchup for us. I got there both games thanks to grim monoliths in my opener negating his bloodmoons.

R4 Daretti Stax 0-2

I got wrecked by wastes and crucibles. I think this is actually an okay matchup. He had what he needed each game.

darkgh0st
07-28-2015, 04:18 PM
@RPGbudgie: Interesting to see that your r3 and r4 matches were decks that use Chalice and some sort of lock, making it to 2-0 or 3-0 during that round.

RPGbudgie
07-28-2015, 10:01 PM
Yeah, our meta varies wildly week to week because half of us can build most of the decks in the format. For the last round there were 6 of us sitting at the top table playing and amongst us there were 16 copies of chalice and only 4 copies of brainstorm.

Airwave
07-29-2015, 05:16 AM
I played MUD at our local $5 Monday night legacy. I went with a standard 12 post build making space for 2 ugin and 1 karn. I also favor cavern over wastes. I went 3-1 and had a great game against Sneak Show.

R1: Nic Fit Scapewish 2-0

Not much to say about these games. Game one he shredded my hand of threats but I drew Karn and then Ugin. Game 2 I had chalices on 1, 2 and 3.

R2: Sneak and Show

Game 1 I mulled a 7 with no land, then I mulled a 6 with no land, then I thought real hard and mulled a 5 with no land and drew the following 4:

Grim monolith, Metalworker, Greaves, Scepter of Domination

I say fuck it and kept the hand. I'm on the play so I pass to him turn 1. He plays ponder and shuffles. I top decked an ancient tomb (woo) and played monolith->metalworker. They both resolved. His next turn he says "do I just go for it? I think I just go for it." He plays city of traitors and casts show and tell. I put in scepter and he puts in emrakul. My next turn I draw a cavern and play it. On his turn, before he attacks, I tap down emrakul using metalworker and revealing boots. Next turn I draw kuldotha and pass. On his turn he taps for mana, plays a land, and drops sneak attack. I tap down emrakul again and survive another turn. I draw a card, see some sort of artifact and go infinite with metalworker/staff.

R3 Dragon Stompy 2-0

I'm not convinced this is a great matchup for us. I got there both games thanks to grim monoliths in my opener negating his bloodmoons.

R4 Daretti Stax 0-2

I got wrecked by wastes and crucibles. I think this is actually an okay matchup. He had what he needed each game.

Thanks for your report.

I'm wondering: Daretti Stax, do you know what the list looks like?

potatodavid
07-29-2015, 01:59 PM
Has Skyship Weatherlight been discussed at all?




This card is Garbage. Discussion over.

darkgh0st
07-29-2015, 02:36 PM
This card is Garbage. Discussion over.

That's Garbage with a capital 'g'. :laugh: Even Coercive Portal/Staff of Nin feels slow, now you have to pay 4 after paying 4 the turn before, or 8 just to get 1 card the same turn. It's that bad.

potatodavid
07-29-2015, 02:58 PM
That's Garbage with a capital 'g'. :laugh: Even Coercive Portal/Staff of Nin feels slow, now you have to pay 4 after paying 4 the turn before, or 8 just to get 1 card the same turn. It's that bad.

Staff is Slow but, it has its moments where it is just a beast. (elves). Portal I was skeptic at first but now I just love it long time.

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-29-2015, 05:10 PM
This card was just spoiled in the Zendikar vs Eldrazi duel deck

Oblivion Sower - 6

Creature - Eldrazi

When you cast this, target opponent exiles the top 4 cards of their library , then you may put any number of land cards that player owns from exile onto the battlefield under your control.

5/8

Underwhelming . but it's a card.

Silverflame
07-30-2015, 03:33 PM
Staff is Slow but, it has its moments where it is just a beast. (elves). Portal I was skeptic at first but now I just love it long time.

Staff also shines against infect, it won me an LQ 2 weeks ago :)

Troll_ov_Grimness
07-31-2015, 01:59 PM
Staff also shines against infect, it won me an LQ 2 weeks ago :)

Serrated Arrows is the best card against them. You'd be long dead before you'd have the mana to cast it against Infect .

Silverflame
07-31-2015, 02:54 PM
Serrated Arrows is the best card against them. You'd be long dead before you'd have the mana to cast it against Infect .

Dude, I just said I won a tournament using staff against infect...

potatodavid
07-31-2015, 03:32 PM
Serrated Arrows is the best card against them. You'd be long dead before you'd have the mana to cast it against Infect .

I am pretty sure you're the only person on earth is in favor of using Serrated Arrows in this deck. Or any deck, you've been pushing this card for about 6 months... It's about as good as Skyship Weatherlight.

darkgh0st
08-01-2015, 12:36 AM
Another FNM

I didn't change anything at all from the list as I didn't have time to get more cards and make adjustments:

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated

R1 - Jund
Lost to a quick Lili twice, locked him out one game with Chalice at one and two.
Need to find out a way to beat Jund cascade. All is Dust would be a trump card here, Ratchet Bombs doesn't do much. 0-1 (1-2)

R2 - Miracles
First game, I resolved a Trinisphere. He pushes Monastery Mentor to its limit (3 tokens), tapped out, then I run out Ugin. Game two he wins with his two Mentors, and two tokens. Game three, I win locking him out with Trinisphere and Wastelanding a Karakas (he's left at 1 land), while beating him with Lodestone Golem. Ratchet Bombs are not that useful against Mentors. 1-1 (3-3)

R3 - RG Lands
I scoop game 1 keeping a 2 lander and not drawing more while he combos off. Game 2, first turn Greaves, 2nd turn Lodestone, followed by 2 Wastelands for the win. He had Mox, Stage, Depths, but lacking mana. Game 3, I drew most of my sided-in cards, starting with Pithing Needle on Stage, then on Wasteland. He Grips the one for Stage and combos off. I had Ensnaring Bridge, Karn, and Ugin. 2-1 (5-4)

R4 - Death and Taxes
Game 1, I kept a stupid hand of Trinisphere, lands and Blightsteel. He mulled to 5 so I thought it was fine (and not knowing he was DnT). His first turn was an Aether Vial. I get run over after. Game 2, there was a point in the game where I could fetch with Forgemaster; he had Thalia, Spirit of Labyrinth, and Karakas in play, and Mangara in hand, with a Vial @3. Staff of Nin would have been great there, and since I took it out of my list, I lost that game. 2-2 (5-6)

Takeaway/Summary:
- I need to find out how to beat Jund.
- Add Staff of Nin back to the list.
- Ratchet Bombs are not that useful against Monastery Mentors, consider adding All is Dust back in SB.
- I think 1 Ensnaring Bridge in SB is enough.
- Also thinking of putting back the Revokers maindeck. Has anyone else tried this?

bruizar
08-01-2015, 01:21 AM
I am pretty sure you're the only person on earth is in favor of using Serrated Arrows in this deck. Or any deck, you've been pushing this card for about 6 months... It's about as good as Skyship Weatherlight.

I've been playing serrated arrows as well and it's a fine card.

Lithium
08-01-2015, 04:06 AM
Coming back to this deck after a decent amount of time away from magic in general, probably a silly question.

With caverns, is construct the usual type named in order to try and stick metalworker or kuldotha forgemaster?

also is this pretty much the standard manabase used:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Vesuva

keys
08-01-2015, 05:21 AM
Coming back to this deck after a decent amount of time away from magic in general, probably a silly question.

With caverns, is construct the usual type named in order to try and stick metalworker or kuldotha forgemaster?

also is this pretty much the standard manabase used:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Vesuva


Construct or Golem (if you've got Lodestone or Titan)

I think more people are playing 3 Vesuva and 2 Wasteland, or no Wasteland altogether.

Lithium
08-01-2015, 05:46 AM
Construct or Golem (if you've got Lodestone or Titan)

I think more people are playing 3 Vesuva and 2 Wasteland, or no Wasteland altogether.

Thanks :)

darkgh0st
08-01-2015, 10:54 AM
I've been playing serrated arrows as well and it's a fine card.

I've bashed Serrated Arrows before, but now, I'm willing to try 1 vs DnT.

bruizar
08-01-2015, 11:29 AM
I've bashed Serrated Arrows before, but now, I'm willing to try 1 vs DnT.

The card looks janky on paper, but it's definitely reasonable. Imo it works quite well against elves, DNT and Delver where it can pick off unflipped delvers and Young Pyromancers. Also, triggering prowess doesn't save the creature (Mentor/Swiftspear) because of the -1/-1 counters. 2 toughness sux though.

Silverflame
08-01-2015, 01:37 PM
The card looks janky on paper, but it's definitely reasonable. Imo it works quite well against elves, DNT and Delver where it can pick off unflipped delvers and Young Pyromancers. Also, triggering prowess doesn't save the creature (Mentor/Swiftspear) because of the -1/-1 counters. 2 toughness sux though.

IMHO, staff is better because:
assuming you're trying to stick it on t2, being t1 sol + monolith, staff being 6 mana instead of 4 makes no difference as both are castable. If you're T1 chalice, you can go T2 lodestone and any 1-drop opponent played is stalled until you can get to 6 anyway.
Serrated Arrow gets worse as the match progress as you lose counters and opponent's creatures increase in size (goyf, KotR, batterskull) while staff gives you inevitability, 3 turns in play greatly increases your odds of winning.
Against miracles you should be going for planeswalkers and card advantage, so staff is better, as it will net you cards and also damage the opponent/pw/stop clique from beating. Instead of going straight to staff/arrow, you should cast chalice on 1 ASAP, so you don't die to mentor + top + top, then cast something big, like hellkite or wurmcoil.
Arrow does work well against DnT if if the opponent is not using revokers or serra avengers, that are increasingly popular MD because of TNN. But then again, so does staff, because with his/hers revoker online you won't ping, but will still get the extra draw.
Against delvers and burn you should be going for wurmcoil or platinum emperion.

bruizar
08-01-2015, 04:27 PM
That all assumes you hit 6 mana without getting dazed. The whole idea is that often you're already dead by then. S.arrows is just a different type of card. Even s.arrows is a little too slow for my liking. I'm looking at granite shard for red variants myself.

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-01-2015, 06:25 PM
You shouldn't be using Grim Monolith to cast Staff Of Nin .

I don't need Metalworker or Grim to cast Coercive Portal . I can cast it for 4 before I start desperately needing to top deck threats or lands. I don't think Staff of Nin is aggressively costed enough for Legacy , at all, period .

the cost payment of Granite Shard is too much just to ping creatures away . Serrated Arrows activates for free .

another option still on the table as far as I think is Arena , it also activates for 3 and the tap is an effect not a cost , so you can swing with Wurmcoil Engine first and then net 12 life off of it. but most of the time it's just going to be hitting a token dork or Germ token , I wish this card was better . in the right metagame it could shine but probably not this one. it still helps to clear away chump blockers but doesn't interact well with Lightning Greaves either. isn't this better than Granite Shard? maybe not .

I was only recommending Serrated Arrows specifically against Infect , since that deck can play a series of must-answer 1/1s that can pump and evade ping damage . I wasn't comparing it in any way to drawing cards with Staff Of Nin

looking at deck lists the choice I see people making is 1 Staff Of Nin and 1 Coercive Portal , never mind that Staff is clearly superior to play multiple copies of at least 2 to 3 to hit 2 toughness creatures like Delver , Deathrite and Stoneforge. I think people are basically conceding that Staff is too slow for legacy and people would really rather play Coercive Portal instead

Alex Holland
08-02-2015, 08:20 AM
Cloudpost : glimmerpost : vesuva : THESPIAN STAGE!!!!!!!! :laugh:

thespian stage is a somehow better somehow worse vesuva / try it.

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Scroll Rack
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Witchbane Orb
SB: 3 Duplicant
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

BTY
08-02-2015, 10:22 AM
That all assumes you hit 6 mana without getting dazed. The whole idea is that often you're already dead by then. S.arrows is just a different type of card. Even s.arrows is a little too slow for my liking. I'm looking at granite shard for red variants myself.

You're right that they can't really be compared because they serve different functions. Staff of Nin, at least in my experience, is there primarily for grindy matchups where the extra cards on a hard (generally speaking) to kill permanent is more threatening than a creature they have removal for. The reason I like staff over Coercive Portal, for example, is that portal is just there to draw cards, where as staff has extra versatility, even if it is usually only marginal utility. Honestly if I were to cut staff of Nin (which I don't plan on doing btw) it would be for main deck Ugin's number 3 and 4. Ugin fills a similar function of being a resilient threat against a deck like miracles with even more utility, you are just trading up to a more expensive card with more utility.

Sent from phone, sorry for any spelling or grammatical or formatting errors.

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-02-2015, 11:42 AM
Staff Of Nin and Coercive Portal are in a different class from one another .

Nobody is denying that Staff Of Nin does more, ping 1 dmg against Pyromancer , planeswalkers, unflipped Delver, and so on is very good , no doubt

but you can cast Coercive Portal as early as turns 2 or 3

BTY
08-02-2015, 12:16 PM
Staff Of Nin and Coercive Portal are in a different class from one another .

Nobody is denying that Staff Of Nin does more, ping 1 dmg against Pyromancer , planeswalkers, unflipped Delver, and so on is very good , no doubt

but you can cast Coercive Portal as early as turns 2 or 3

That's fair but maybe I just value the added utility more than you and am willing to pay the price. I guess the main reason I'm willing to pay more for that effect is that I'm not really interested in the cards against daze decks. Against them I'm usually more worried about getting to the midgame with enough mana, action, and life to start to take over the game with our more powerful cards.

Alex Holland
08-03-2015, 05:05 AM
That's fair but maybe I just value the added utility more than you and am willing to pay the price. I guess the main reason I'm willing to pay more for that effect is that I'm not really interested in the cards against daze decks. Against them I'm usually more worried about getting to the midgame with enough mana, action, and life to start to take over the game with our more powerful cards.

BOTH cards are jank in legacy.

you dont want to spend 4-6 mana on things that could be good. you want the good card in your hand not the possibility to draw one next turn. legacy is too fast.

I play scroll rack to find what i need. A nice 2 drop that activates for 1. Dig up the good stuff.


ALSO: thespian stage is a good land next too cloudpost! WHen i dont have anything to cast i turn it in a extra cloudpost and watch my mana go crazy

Airwave
08-03-2015, 05:34 AM
BOTH cards are jank in legacy.

you dont want to spend 4-6 mana on things that could be good. you want the good card in your hand not the possibility to draw one next turn. legacy is too fast.

I play scroll rack to find what i need. A nice 2 drop that activates for 1. Dig up the good stuff.


ALSO: thespian stage is a good land next too cloudpost! WHen i dont have anything to cast i turn it in a extra cloudpost and watch my mana go crazy

Interesting setup with Thespian's Stage. I did try it out actually but only as a replacement for one of the Vesuva I never thought about putting it in as an extra. Although I would hate losing Wasteland it would certainly be worth a try.

With this setup I would definitely up my curve a lot, since you will produce a LOT of mana every game. Just have to make sure you get there. I'd definitely put in a full playset of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon then :smile:

Alex Holland
08-03-2015, 08:30 AM
Interesting setup with Thespian's Stage. I did try it out actually but only as a replacement for one of the Vesuva I never thought about putting it in as an extra. Although I would hate losing Wasteland it would certainly be worth a try.

With this setup I would definitely up my curve a lot, since you will produce a LOT of mana every game. Just have to make sure you get there. I'd definitely put in a full playset of Ugin, the Spirit Dragon then :smile:

ugin is a great manasink. However karn at 7 mana is also a contestant altough he fits a different role he is out a turn earlier. kozilek is also nice with greaves! Maybe more staff of domination(s) to throw mana at?

Airwave
08-03-2015, 08:38 AM
ugin is a great manasink. However karn at 7 mana is also a contestant altough he fits a different role he is out a turn earlier. kozilek is also nice with greaves! Maybe more staff of domination(s) to throw mana at?

More Staff of Domination would definitely be a good idea I guess. This thing rocks with an abundance of mana and kills with metalworker.

Karn Liberated is also great but I guess the list will get crowded then. Only way to do this is dropping forgemaster package... :eyebrow:

Alex Holland
08-03-2015, 09:39 AM
More Staff of Domination would definitely be a good idea I guess. This thing rocks with an abundance of mana and kills with metalworker.

Karn Liberated is also great but I guess the list will get crowded then. Only way to do this is dropping forgemaster package... :eyebrow:

Im more contemplating about expedition map.

Do i keep him? Should i run him next to chalice? Do i need him? There are no other ways to tutor for cloudpostlands without splashing green!

Also i dont want to make it some sort of sub par GR cloudpost :tongue: i think metalworker serves the role of getting mana if the post doesnt work.

keys
08-03-2015, 12:11 PM
BOTH cards are jank in legacy.

you dont want to spend 4-6 mana on things that could be good. you want the good card in your hand not the possibility to draw one next turn. legacy is too fast.

I play scroll rack to find what i need. A nice 2 drop that activates for 1. Dig up the good stuff.


ALSO: thespian stage is a good land next too cloudpost! WHen i dont have anything to cast i turn it in a extra cloudpost and watch my mana go crazy

Rack doesn't seem very good since you don't have any way to shuffle apart from Forgemaster.

I also think that Portal and Staff are both probably too slow for the maindeck. They're only good in grindy matchups but there are less of those in Legacy these days.

If you're trying to beat X/1s then Steel Hellkite or Ugin are better.

Airwave
08-04-2015, 04:48 AM
Im more contemplating about expedition map.

Do i keep him? Should i run him next to chalice? Do i need him? There are no other ways to tutor for cloudpostlands without splashing green!

Also i dont want to make it some sort of sub par GR cloudpost :tongue: i think metalworker serves the role of getting mana if the post doesnt work.

I wouldn't play Expedition Map. There's more than enough mana in the list as it is. One single Cloudpost is enough, and that is if you need it anyway :cool:

Alex Holland
08-04-2015, 06:57 AM
I wouldn't play Expedition Map. There's more than enough mana in the list as it is. One single Cloudpost is enough, and that is if you need it anyway :cool:

i also find tangle wire interesting next to cloudpost mana base.. it helps buy time to get xxx mana. Then again its a dead draw late game.

I think i will try this when i get home:

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 thespian stage
3 vesuva
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls

4 chalice of the void
3 thran dynamo
3 trinisphere
3 lightning greaves
1 staff of domination
2 scroll rack

4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 wurmcoil engine
1 blightsteel colossus
2 kozilek, butcher of truth

3 ugin, the spirit dragon
3 karn liberated

Airwave
08-04-2015, 08:46 AM
I would change the Thran Dynamo for Grim monolith

Silverflame
08-04-2015, 01:48 PM
try to fit another staff of domination and at least 2 monoliths, you gonna need em against Lands.

Alex Holland
08-04-2015, 03:33 PM
BTW kozilek still makes you draw 4 even when countered! :tongue:

Airwave
08-05-2015, 03:52 AM
BTW kozilek still makes you draw 4 even when countered! :tongue:

Hah! Never realized that. Now you just need 10 mana :tongue:

Alex Holland
08-05-2015, 06:48 AM
Ok, another idea!

Back in the day i just to play godo, bandit warlord to fetch batterskulls.
You now wich card looks like godo (5R)?

auatouched mage (5W) 3/3 when he enters fetch a enchant creature then attach it to him.

5W is do able > play it then fetch eldrazi conscription (8) (enchant creature gets +10/10 trample anhilator 2.)
a 13/13 trample anhi 2 is ok to try for 5W and if u have GREAVES on the table to instantly smash its pure card advantage.

White does have some nice artifact cards. And since white is the color of R.I.P. maybe also helm combo in this and i have a deck??? :tongue:

Airwave
08-06-2015, 04:50 AM
Ok, another idea!

Back in the day i just to play godo, bandit warlord to fetch batterskulls.
You now wich card looks like godo (5R)?

auatouched mage (5W) 3/3 when he enters fetch a enchant creature then attach it to him.

5W is do able > play it then fetch eldrazi conscription (8) (enchant creature gets +10/10 trample anhilator 2.)
a 13/13 trample anhi 2 is ok to try for 5W and if u have GREAVES on the table to instantly smash its pure card advantage.

White does have some nice artifact cards. And since white is the color of R.I.P. maybe also helm combo in this and i have a deck??? :tongue:

Hmm I guess that would be difficult to compete with. Thing is, the mage doesn't pass the plow/bolt test. So if they hit it you have exactly nothing whereas Godo (or stoneforge for that matter) give you at least the equipment in play/hand...

bruizar
08-06-2015, 05:35 AM
Looks interesting. Are there any other good auras that you can use with it?

Alex Holland
08-06-2015, 09:08 AM
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 thespian stage
3 vesuva
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 dark depths????????



BECAUSE its a combo with thespian stage and because....

i am going to run BESEECH THE QUEEN to tutor it :tongue: i'd rather use expedition map but 1 mana messes with chalice. i tried to play expedition map with chalices swapt out for defense grids since i play so many planeswalkers but meh.

Really a tutor for 6 mana is/isnt bad in MUD?

SOME ppl even play weak 4 mana artifacts that drawn 1 card a turn!
Well i will tutor for 6 to let loose combo win unexpectednes!

Silverflame
08-06-2015, 12:05 PM
BECAUSE its a combo with thespian stage and because....

i am going to run BESEECH THE QUEEN to tutor it :tongue: i'd rather use expedition map but 1 mana messes with chalice. i tried to play expedition map with chalices swapt out for defense grids since i play so many planeswalkers but meh.

Really a tutor for 6 mana is/isnt bad in MUD?

SOME ppl even play weak 4 mana artifacts that drawn 1 card a turn!
Well i will tutor for 6 to let loose combo win unexpectednes!

if you gonna tutor, why not living wish? Also on the green mud (moss?) you can use birthing pod and/or sylvan library + uba mask engine

Lithium
08-06-2015, 04:25 PM
can anyone point me in the direction of a guide to building and properly sideboarding with MUD.

darkgh0st
08-06-2015, 05:04 PM
can anyone point me in the direction of a guide to building and properly sideboarding with MUD.

Deckbuilding: 1st page, part 4 - Proven Variations (other parts explain card choices)

Sideboarding: The one I refer to is post #2749, by Airwave in page 138. After some tests in your local meta, you'll eventually be changing the SB to suit your meta needs.


EDIT: Question: What's the best way to break Cursed Scroll in MUD? I'm thinking Kai Budde's 1999 Wildfire deck...

Bobmans
08-07-2015, 02:46 AM
EDIT: Question: What's the best way to break Cursed Scroll in MUD? I'm thinking Kai Budde's 1999 Wildfire deck...

My first thought would be a Welder shell. Those list hellbends themselves pretty fast. Also Chalice is pretty big, it would conflict the card. Welder gets around that. Masticore also helped in keeping Scroll active. Wildfire itself requires a big dedication on a manabase to support double red AND cmc 6. Having that said, if you can resolve a T4 Wildfire it would be devestating to any deck in the format. The question is, how to get there consistantly. I have tried toying around with Wildfire and several shells like Dragon Stompy or the old Kai Budde list with tweaks. Nothing real came out of it. But thinking about Trinisphere and Wildfire gets my attention.

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-09-2015, 08:02 PM
My first thought would be a Welder shell. Those list hellbends themselves pretty fast. Also Chalice is pretty big, it would conflict the card. Welder gets around that. Masticore also helped in keeping Scroll active. Wildfire itself requires a big dedication on a manabase to support double red AND cmc 6. Having that said, if you can resolve a T4 Wildfire it would be devestating to any deck in the format. The question is, how to get there consistantly. I have tried toying around with Wildfire and several shells like Dragon Stompy or the old Kai Budde list with tweaks. Nothing real came out of it. But thinking about Trinisphere and Wildfire gets my attention.

The problems with Wildfire ,

since the unbanning of Entomb and Show And Tell, there are many decks against which Wildfire just isn't a good card .

Tempo decks can play off of only 1 land effectively, making land destruction a poor strategy .

a better game plan than Wildfire might be Molten Vortex , but it gets countered by Chalice

One card that keeps popping into my head for some reason is Hecatomb w/ Sengir Autocrat , maybe some white/black Demon Stompy deck with tokens



Worth trying out is a Dragon Stompy deck playing Burning Wish for Wildfire , Pulverize, Anarchy

I think Wildfire is a good card situationally if you can wish for it, but in a counter-rich format I think it's not viable especially since Dig Through Time

darkgh0st
08-09-2015, 11:12 PM
From what I saw from my FNM last friday playing vs Reanimator, it didn't matter whether I was playing generic MUD, Stax, or even Wildfire. When they get their god-hand, they win. If we can sneak in our locks (Chalice, Trinisphere, etc.) we would win if we have a concrete follow up.

Against Show and Tell, you can even have Pyroblast and Red Element Blast, siding out the Chalices.

I'm planning to give it a go, besides, Wildfire isn't all there will be in the deck.

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-10-2015, 12:24 PM
The MUD deck that placed 28th at the Starcity Games Open ,

A bit weird of a list.. Wurmcoil is almost totally gone, making room for another Sundering Titan, a Trinisphere, and a Myr Battlesphere

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff Of Nin
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

Side,

2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant
1 All Is Dust
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb

Alex Holland
08-10-2015, 03:59 PM
The MUD deck that placed 28th at the Starcity Games Open ,

A bit weird of a list.. Wurmcoil is almost totally gone, making room for another Sundering Titan, a Trinisphere, and a Myr Battlesphere

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff Of Nin
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

Side,

2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant
1 All Is Dust
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb


Thats not a weird list. Its a standard list altough a little bit worse then normal. Because wurmcoils are awesome. But thats MUD; sometimes a freak deck can pop up and punch above its weight. all in the draws. nothing to see here.

im currently playing around with this:

4 Copper Gnomes
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 steel hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Staff of Nin
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Scroll Rack
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Thespian's Stage
3 City of Traitors

Explanation: This deck is meant to be resilient. It eats lands and counters for breakfast. Copper gnomes and lightning greaves are the key.
Lightning greaves are essential for MUD because the combination of forgemaster or metalworker plus greaves is unbeatable.

The biggest tech however are the 3 staff of Nins. This might seem a lot. But the trick is to cheat them in as quickly as possible trough copper gnomes.
T2 staff of Nin is really good. Als a t2 wurmcoil is very good. Of course id rather have a metalworker but a uncounterable way to cheat in artifacts is very good. Plus a wurmcoil or staff of nin arent card disadvantage! nin will draw ur deck and wurmcoil most often dies into 2 smaller wurms like a dune sandwurm!

ALso: nobody in his right mind will use counters on a louzy 1/1 copper gnomes. And if they do: well thats one less worry in their hand for us. I found myself digging my deck with 2 staff of nins numerous games pinging for 2 every turn for free is a lot more fun then a hecatomb/
Best play of the day: tapping for 6 turn 3 dropping gnomes, saccing gnomes laying a blightsteel and equippin it with greaves for the win :)
Secong best play: hellkite attacking for 16 with post mana :p

Silverflame
08-11-2015, 10:53 AM
Thats not a weird list. Its a standard list altough a little bit worse then normal. Because wurmcoils are awesome. But thats MUD; sometimes a freak deck can pop up and punch above its weight. all in the draws. nothing to see here.

im currently playing around with this:

4 Copper Gnomes
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 steel hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Staff of Nin
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Scroll Rack
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Thespian's Stage
3 City of Traitors

Explanation: This deck is meant to be resilient. It eats lands and counters for breakfast. Copper gnomes and lightning greaves are the key.
Lightning greaves are essential for MUD because the combination of forgemaster or metalworker plus greaves is unbeatable.

The biggest tech however are the 3 staff of Nins. This might seem a lot. But the trick is to cheat them in as quickly as possible trough copper gnomes.
T2 staff of Nin is really good. Als a t2 wurmcoil is very good. Of course id rather have a metalworker but a uncounterable way to cheat in artifacts is very good. Plus a wurmcoil or staff of nin arent card disadvantage! nin will draw ur deck and wurmcoil most often dies into 2 smaller wurms like a dune sandwurm!

ALso: nobody in his right mind will use counters on a louzy 1/1 copper gnomes. And if they do: well thats one less worry in their hand for us. I found myself digging my deck with 2 staff of nins numerous games pinging for 2 every turn for free is a lot more fun then a hecatomb/
Best play of the day: tapping for 6 turn 3 dropping gnomes, saccing gnomes laying a blightsteel and equippin it with greaves for the win :)
Secong best play: hellkite attacking for 16 with post mana :p

interesting build, how are the scroll racks working for you? The list looks better against some matches but looks slightly worse against reanimator and grixis control, have you tested against them?

Alex Holland
08-11-2015, 03:37 PM
interesting build, how are the scroll racks working for you? The list looks better against some matches but looks slightly worse against reanimator and grixis control, have you tested against them?

reanimator is not really dangerous. i always play 4 faerie macabre and 3 tormods crypt in my SB. Thats enough to send them away.

I am not familiar with grixis control, i believe i played one yesterday, won with very much luck. game 2 he (sided in?) a blood moon and a dack fayden. With wich he stole my staff of nin then shoot one of my gnomes :cry: I had a empty hand and topdecked a blightsteel while i had another gnomes with greaves in play! But too be fair it was pure luck this is the kind of deck that rapes us most of the time i think(?) But the gnomes arent just to duck counters they are also there to speed up my drops (preferbaly a staff of nin)

scroll rack is a card i always liked because with this deck u play cards or u cant play them. So when ur stuck u drop it tap it then go search something good dumping the cards that are stuck in your hand. And with 3 staff of nin i can dig too so it remains relevant. Its pure to make the deck perform more stabile and get what u want.

Also i play 13 post. i decided to up to 3 vesuva making it 11. But also keep 2 thespian stage because they serve such a good role; when i dont have enough mana i eot their turn to turn it into a cloudpost boosting my mana to where it should be. So it does invlove more work to make a cloudpost then vesuva but it doesnt come into play tapped so its just as good depending circumstances. I still keep 3 city because you somethimes need mana to be fast.

I need some people to go play around with this list because i think it can be competetive! :tongue:

bruizar
08-12-2015, 05:59 AM
Really like the Copper Gnomes. It's almost like a one sided show and tell for MUD

Alex Holland
08-12-2015, 04:54 PM
Really like the Copper Gnomes. It's almost like a one sided show and tell for MUD

well thats a bit too much. but its nice eot sneak something in. control dont like staff of nin.

darkgh0st
08-13-2015, 10:00 AM
I haven't seen any top 8/16 MUD decks listed at big events lately. Does there need to be a change? MUD isn't a top contender still. So what can we do to make it one?

movingtonewao
08-13-2015, 01:07 PM
Can hangarback walker find a home in this deck

Rikter
08-13-2015, 01:56 PM
I haven't seen any top 8/16 MUD decks listed at big events lately. Does there need to be a change? MUD isn't a top contender still. So what can we do to make it one?

MUD is a legit deck, with a ton of strong interactions that require the other guy to come up with his answers or he loses. I've been playing it for the last year with good results. I've cashed 8/10 tournaments this year with it, and made the cut in the other two. These tourneys ranged from 13 people to 550. There are a few things that hold it back, in my opinion: first and foremost is that 70% of the format is slobbing brainstorm/fetchlands knob something fierce, and the percentage of people that play the deck is lower than it reasonably should be given it's power. Another is that the deck can just implode on itself, in part because of some awkward interactions within your mana base (having to keep a city of traitors/vesuva hand is not fantastic), but also because your manly decision to not play a dozen 1cmc cantrips makes it harder to smooth your mulls. Last but not least you are less resilient on the draw, although it isn't nearly as bad as Vintage Shops because in Legacy you can get away with turn 1 cloudpost pass, but you still can't interact on your turn 0 like with FoW. If you want to win it all, you are going to be forced into playing on the draw during your biggest matches unless you are the #1 seed.

As far as matchups, you will have game against everyone, period. For every awesome non-MUD deck in the format, you will have multiple main deck cards that are ridiculously effective, and must be answered, or the other guy loses. Most of your games will involve someone looking foolish because one of you is probably getting wrecked...but even in longer games you have top end that far outclasses most of what will be on the board for your opponent so it's not all bad.

I have been seeing more MUD lists later in tournaments recently. During day 2 at the DC Open last weekend there were quite a few other MUD lists that I saw.

The list I have been running and generally happy with:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmer Post
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Blightsteel Colossus

2x Ugin the Spirit Dragon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Lightning Greaves

SB
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Dismember
2x Contagion Clasp
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Contagion Engine
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Angel
1x Duplicant
1x Tsabo's Web

L10
08-13-2015, 02:03 PM
I haven't seen any top 8/16 MUD decks listed at big events lately. Does there need to be a change? MUD isn't a top contender still. So what can we do to make it one?

I was having much more success in the Treasure Cruise meta because it pushed out all the Wasteland strategies. Incidentally, TC also shifted the meta to make storm stronger. With the lack of Wastelands and uprise in decks like Storm, MUD was very well positioned. Now with Wasteland back, along with uprise in Loam strategies thanks to Aggro Loam and Lands.dec, MUD is having a harder time to stablize if you don't have a good early game (the first three turns being critical). I haven't played for several months but I'd consider some copies of Crucible of Worlds in the MD, and a full suite of Wastelands if I do take that route.

EmoPizza
08-13-2015, 02:47 PM
I wouldn't expect Hangarback to find its way into this deck. It might be able to work out with Smokestack, but that's about it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

EmoPizza
08-13-2015, 02:57 PM
I haven't seen any top 8/16 MUD decks listed at big events lately. Does there need to be a change? MUD isn't a top contender still. So what can we do to make it one?
It might just depend on the Meta and what you want to beat with your build.

Cavern + more Sundering Titans will help you beat more Miracles decks.

Having 4x Wurmcoil in the 75 helps beat non-white fair decks like all the delver lists running around.

Staff of Nin is really only needed over portal if you want to help DnT, Infect, and Elves matchups.

It might just be a matter of deciding what decks to maximize the 75 towards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

Rikter
08-13-2015, 03:05 PM
It might just depend on the Meta and what you want to beat with your build.

Cavern + more Sundering Titans will help you beat more Miracles decks.

Having 4x Wurmcoil in the 75 helps beat non-white fair decks like all the delver lists running around.

Staff of Nin is really only needed over portal if you want to help DnT, Infect, and Elves matchups.

It might just be a matter of deciding what decks to maximize the 75 towards.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk


A lot of it has to do with the meta. There are a lot of different tools out there, just a question of picking the right ones.

EmoPizza
08-13-2015, 03:10 PM
Incidentally, if you don't want to lose to Wasteland decks, you can always devote some SB slots to Pithing Needles and Tormod's Crypts.

If you want to keep from getting wasted out G1, Portal does a good job of drawing you into lands, and isn't bad vs Decks like Miracles. 4 mana isn't that hard to get to vs wasteland decks because of Monolith.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

darkgh0st
08-13-2015, 05:27 PM
SB
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Dismember
2x Contagion Clasp
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Contagion Engine
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Angel
1x Duplicant
1x Tsabo's Web

Games are a lot more different on the draw. It is when your Chalice could have countered that 1st turn Vial or Delver, Vial being more deadly.

Dismembers are really strong pre-board, unless you get swamped with Tombs. This is the first time that I am seeing Contagion Clasp. What are the other interactions with it aside from your own and screwing up Vial count?

Silverflame
08-13-2015, 06:25 PM
I haven't seen any top 8/16 MUD decks listed at big events lately. Does there need to be a change? MUD isn't a top contender still. So what can we do to make it one?

this http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/642 shows a bit of success, but MUD will never dominate the format as it is easy to hate. Like dredge, it can prey metas where it is not expected and if you can get a good read of how it will be, you can tinker a bit to make it resilient against that meta as we have silver bullets available for almost every deck. If you do it properly, you can get the trophy on any tournament, big or small.
Overall, we can try to make the MD lists more resilient and efficient against as many decks possible.

sun tzu
08-14-2015, 04:27 AM
I have some questions for you guys:

Do you think Lodestone golem is a mandatory card? I always feel like he is kind of underwhelming when I play him.

What about Metalworker? I have heard people refer to him as the best card in the deck, but when he eats a bolt, or stp, or decay, etc. sometimes that can set you back a lot because your other spells cost so much.

Is staff of domination good enough? It seems like a win-more card that only really works well when you have the Metalworker when you have 3 artifacts in hand. Does this scenario come up enough to warrant 1 (and some decks run more) of this card?

Have you guys ever felt like the 4 trinisphere 4 chalice of the void package is too 'tax' heavy and not threat dense enough? I have considered cutting one of the 2 for more threats.

Ganfar
08-14-2015, 05:59 AM
I have some questions for you guys:

Do you think Lodestone golem is a mandatory card? I always feel like he is kind of underwhelming when I play him.

What about Metalworker? I have heard people refer to him as the best card in the deck, but when he eats a bolt, or stp, or decay, etc. sometimes that can set you back a lot because your other spells cost so much.

Is staff of domination good enough? It seems like a win-more card that only really works well when you have the Metalworker when you have 3 artifacts in hand. Does this scenario come up enough to warrant 1 (and some decks run more) of this card?

Have you guys ever felt like the 4 trinisphere 4 chalice of the void package is too 'tax' heavy and not threat dense enough? I have considered cutting one of the 2 for more threats.

Lodestone makes it hardwr for the oppment ask thier spell and you can when lock them out. Also it can come out turn 2-3 and swing 4 turns for win.

Yes, Metallworker will die to removel, like most cards in magic. If the oppment don't handle the work they probabally going to lose. "Take care of metallwork now or you will die." One of the big reason to play this deck is for metallwork. Without it the decks is much more worse.

Alex Holland
08-14-2015, 07:01 AM
I have some questions for you guys:

Do you think Lodestone golem is a mandatory card? I always feel like he is kind of underwhelming when I play him.

What about Metalworker? I have heard people refer to him as the best card in the deck, but when he eats a bolt, or stp, or decay, etc. sometimes that can set you back a lot because your other spells cost so much.

Is staff of domination good enough? It seems like a win-more card that only really works well when you have the Metalworker when you have 3 artifacts in hand. Does this scenario come up enough to warrant 1 (and some decks run more) of this card?

Have you guys ever felt like the 4 trinisphere 4 chalice of the void package is too 'tax' heavy and not threat dense enough? I have considered cutting one of the 2 for more threats.

Lodestone is a very good card. We play artifacts they dont. So their spells will cost more. Also when tapped out thet cant Daze or Fow with a lodestone on our side. 2 lodestones? More fun.

Is he mandatory? No. He will make UGIN or KARN more expensive, i recently dropped him because i rather played copper gnomes instead in my build.

Metalworker is good. But not always. But whatever your hand, how much crap you carry, i will bet you that EVERY opponent will throw his precious counters or removal at metalworker even when he is irrelevant to your hand LOL. And when he does stick you may just throw your hand on the table and win. Play 4.

Staff is nice with post mana base, he will at least draw you some cards or tap their fatty. But i dropped him. He and metalworker have a nice oops i win combo but staff is a dead top deck to often for me..

I play 4 chalice ALWAYS. Because you want one turn 1 in most matches. Having 2 in hand isnt bad either, put 1 on 1 cc and then decide what u want for the other based on their deck.
I play 3 trinispheres, because they are less relevant late game IMHO.

Rikter
08-14-2015, 09:17 AM
Games are a lot more different on the draw. It is when your Chalice could have countered that 1st turn Vial or Delver, Vial being more deadly.

Dismembers are really strong pre-board, unless you get swamped with Tombs. This is the first time that I am seeing Contagion Clasp. What are the other interactions with it aside from your own and screwing up Vial count?

Clasp is in there as a 2 mana answer to unflipped delver, pyromancer, the infect creatures, phyrexian revoker, elves etc. It can also kill 2 toughness guys a little later in the game, and given enough time can whittle down anything. But it's 90% in there to handle 1 T creatures. It's really important that it only costs 2 because against infect you want an answer that you can drop turn one off of a sol land, and against Death and Taxes you are more likely to get your mana hampered so it's really important to be able to kill a Phyrexian Revoker (that is shutting off something important) off of 1 land drop. Screwing with vial is a thing, pumping Ugin or chalice is something that could also happen, but it's really all about killing 1 T dudes for 2 mana.

I only bring in the dismembers in a few match ups, it's mostly for Infect, but it has relevance against Maverick, in the mirror and BUG delver. I would also bring it in against Mentor Miracles, I've had good results in Vintage doing this. Basically it comes in against decks with fast must answer threats that are small enough to die to it and that also either run swords to plowshares or don't run burn cards.


I have some questions for you guys:

Do you think Lodestone golem is a mandatory card? I always feel like he is kind of underwhelming when I play him.

What about Metalworker? I have heard people refer to him as the best card in the deck, but when he eats a bolt, or stp, or decay, etc. sometimes that can set you back a lot because your other spells cost so much.

Is staff of domination good enough? It seems like a win-more card that only really works well when you have the Metalworker when you have 3 artifacts in hand. Does this scenario come up enough to warrant 1 (and some decks run more) of this card?

Have you guys ever felt like the 4 trinisphere 4 chalice of the void package is too 'tax' heavy and not threat dense enough? I have considered cutting one of the 2 for more threats.

Lodestone is very very strong. As in, here is a time walk with a 5/3 body strong. You play Lodestone.

Metalworker is insane. This is a card that, generally, says "If you let me untap you lose". He powers some of your most broken openers, and he puts tremendous pressure on the opponent to answer him.

Staff of Domination is legit. It's a viable forgemaster target, it can produce combo wins, and it can win the game on it's own. Staff taps their best guy(s), gives pseudo vigilance, gains you life, draws you cards...all of it's modes are relevant, and even late in the game it's great because you should have mana to power it. Staff is an amazing mana sink that produces a lot of useful effects.

4x Chalice is a must. It is often your strongest T1 play, but even on later turns it has relevance. Shutting off cantrips, swords, bolt etc. on turn 2 or 3 is still good. Trinisphere is an amazing card as well. Sometimes it's multiple timewalks, other times it just restricts them to one spell per turn. You can always use it to fuel Metalworker and Forgemaster...I can't see cutting any of them.

Alex Holland
08-14-2015, 10:59 AM
I
Cavern + more Sundering Titans will help you beat more Miracles decks.

Staff of Nin is really only needed over portal if you want to help DnT, Infect, and Elves matchups.

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I disagree with these two points.

Portal is 4 mana. But doesnt do anything other then draw. 2 mana more isnt a lot for a staff of nin. I killed many mindsculptors, dack faydens and players with the dropping of a staff. Its too narrow to think its only useful against 1 toughness creatures. Pinging is a good thing. Makes that you can actually influence the board state and get even more card advantage out of it. I admit i always hated staff of nin and i ridiculed others who played it. I was wrong. I now play 3 and i enjoy sneaking them in, HALLELUJAH!

Titan vs Miracles? U dont need extra help against miracles. Its one of my favourite opponents because with cavern, chalice, trinisphere, copper gnomes i just steam role them to little pieces! :laugh:

EmoPizza
08-14-2015, 03:25 PM
I disagree with these two points.

Portal is 4 mana. But doesnt do anything other then draw. 2 mana more isnt a lot for a staff of nin. I killed many mindsculptors, dack faydens and players with the dropping of a staff. Its too narrow to think its only useful against 1 toughness creatures. Pinging is a good thing. Makes that you can actually influence the board state and get even more card advantage out of it. I admit i always hated staff of nin and i ridiculed others who played it. I was wrong. I now play 3 and i enjoy sneaking them in, HALLELUJAH!

Titan vs Miracles? U dont need extra help against miracles. Its one of my favourite opponents because with cavern, chalice, trinisphere, copper gnomes i just steam role them to little pieces! [emoji23]
2 more mana can certainly be a lot when you are playing against loam decks and DnT. Having to wait for 2 more mana is also quite a liability against Hymn/Lili/TS decks. Against BUG delver I'd take portal over Nin any day as resisting daze/spell pierce/wasteland certainly has value. Coming down sooner also means drawing more cards.

Just because miracles isn't a bad matchup doesn't mean it's a free win. Every game I've lost to them was the result of a series of StP/Snapcaster/Terminus/Jace-1 on every non-Sundering Titan creature I would draw. This deck is absolutely capable of drawing threat-light just long enough to lose to Miracles. Cavern on Sundering Titan is simply the safest easy to guarantee a win vs Miracles.

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EmoPizza
08-14-2015, 05:14 PM
What's everyone's opinion on the deck's holy cow: Blightsteel? I feel like most instances where you tutor him up to win, Platinum Emperion tends to do just as good of a job at winning in most cases, except for maybe elves and Infect. As it stands, I've been running a Steel Hellkite in his place. He tends to be more castable than Blightsteel and still OHKOs with staff combo.

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Alex Holland
08-15-2015, 05:17 AM
What's everyone's opinion on the deck's holy cow: Blightsteel? I feel like most instances where you tutor him up to win, Platinum Emperion tends to do just as good of a job at winning in most cases, except for maybe elves and Infect. As it stands, I've been running a Steel Hellkite in his place. He tends to be more castable than Blightsteel and still OHKOs with staff combo.

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Emperion gets chump blocked or blocked to death by 2-3 creatures.

Blightsteel kills in 1 turn if unblocked, has trample ane indestructible. Even when they do block he tramples infect damage. Survives even 10 creatures blocking him and thus always kills in 1-2 turns.

Emperion is trash compared to blightsteel and has a total different role in the deck mainly defensive. Quit the nonsense.

movingtonewao
08-15-2015, 07:07 AM
I think a more valid talking point would be Emperion vs Platinum Angel. They serve the same purpose of being defensive such that you won't lose.

Is the 1 mana more for emperion worth the "upgrade" in P/T? I understand that in many situations 1 mana away may mean "1 turn away a.k.a opponent gets one more turn to do stuff"

Now I admit I'm not good at this deck, so I took Airwaves list from pg 138 and gave it a spin (airwave thank you for that sideboarding guide its a boon to newer players).

My local meta is burn/merfolk/miracles(g2mentor)/omnitell/loamdecks...would a build like his be good for this meta? :)

Thanks in advance!

Alex Holland
08-15-2015, 08:58 AM
I think a more valid talking point would be Emperion vs Platinum Angel. They serve the same purpose of being defensive such that you won't lose.

Is the 1 mana more for emperion worth the "upgrade" in P/T? I understand that in many situations 1 mana away may mean "1 turn away a.k.a opponent gets one more turn to do stuff"

Now I admit I'm not good at this deck, so I took Airwaves list from pg 138 and gave it a spin (airwave thank you for that sideboarding guide its a boon to newer players).

My local meta is burn/merfolk/miracles(g2mentor)/omnitell/loamdecks...would a build like his be good for this meta? :)

Thanks in advance!

1 mana can be huge but if you do it right you will sneak in your platinum thing anyway. I always prefer emperion because 8 toughness means a burn player will have to do some work to remove it. plus a 4/4 flying isnt really impressive while a 8/8 can beat face if no blockers. But it really isnt a discussion as 99% of MUD players chose emperion so it must be logical.

Wilkin
08-15-2015, 10:52 AM
Another thing that factored in my decision to run Platnium Emperion over the Angel is creature type. I play a full playset of Cavern of Souls and Emperion is a Golem, as is Lodestone Golem, Blightsteel Colossus and Sundering Titan. I play 19 creatures in MUD. 7 of them are constructs (Forgemaster and Metalworker) and 7 of them are Golems, which makes it easier to name creature types for Cavern.

Also, as mentioned by Alex, Emperion is harder to kill as an 8/8.

Trying out a singleton Coercive Portal. It's ok so far. I may make that into another Staff of Nin though. The Ping ability is really good.

I recently switched to MUD as Omnitell and Miracles are quite prominent where I play and I've been doing really well. Only lost to Miracles once (out of at least 7 matches) and haven't lost to Omnitell at all. LOL, although against Omnitell I've had some god hands. Turn 1, Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal into turn 1 Lodestone Golem. Turn 2. Another Ancient Tomb into another Lodestone Golem.

Anyone have any pointers for Infect or Elves? I find those matches difficult.

Fry
08-15-2015, 12:56 PM
I main an Emperion because it stops most things and having 8 mana isn't normally a problem. I have the Angel in the side for combos that mill you out or just go, "I win," without changing my life total. Against things like burn I keep in the Emperion and add in the Angel, where as in other matchups I just switch one for the other.

Alex Holland
08-15-2015, 01:07 PM
Anyone have any pointers for Infect or Elves? I find those matches difficult.

Keep a chalice or a trinisphere in your opening hand. Against infect you really want a trinisphere since they stack their buff spells and play fow. Against elves hope for a chalice, then followed by a chalice at 3. Maybe some ratchet bomb in the SB. Or phyrexian revoker. I hate elves.

L10
08-15-2015, 05:12 PM
Funny you mention that Fry, because I do the complete opposite for about the same reasons. I keep Angel in the main because it deals with more variety of win cons, like infect and mill. The fact that it costs one less mana and that it has flying (which represents a decent clock, vs. Emperion which does nothing sometimes as the opponent finds an answer). I usually side Emperion in (while keeping Angel) against decks that can't answer Emperion well, such as Merfolk and Burn. Having a Cavern of Souls on Golem is a thing though.

movingtonewao
08-16-2015, 01:39 AM
I don't think creature type matters in the decks we want plat against. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. Infect and burn for example aren't likely to hold counters for plat cards.

Also, why chalice on 3 for elves? What are we going to counter.

Secretly.A.Bee
08-16-2015, 02:43 AM
I don't think creature type matters in the decks we want plat against. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. Infect and burn for example aren't likely to hold counters for plat cards.

Also, why chalice on 3 for elves? What are we going to counter.

URx Delver builds will do their best to, and yes, if they know their matchups, so will Infect.

Chalice on 3 for elves is presumably for Reclamation Sage, but I don't know why because the list plays several copies of Abrupt Decay. It's better to just Chalice at 1 and win fast.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

bruizar
08-16-2015, 04:59 AM
Reclamation Sage is going to be found with Green Sun's Zenith so chalice on 3 will not be useful in stopping it

Airwave
08-16-2015, 08:05 AM
Another thing that factored in my decision to run Platnium Emperion over the Angel is creature type. I play a full playset of Cavern of Souls and Emperion is a Golem, as is Lodestone Golem, Blightsteel Colossus and Sundering Titan. I play 19 creatures in MUD. 7 of them are constructs (Forgemaster and Metalworker) and 7 of them are Golems, which makes it easier to name creature types for Cavern.

Also, as mentioned by Alex, Emperion is harder to kill as an 8/8.

Trying out a singleton Coercive Portal. It's ok so far. I may make that into another Staff of Nin though. The Ping ability is really good.

I recently switched to MUD as Omnitell and Miracles are quite prominent where I play and I've been doing really well. Only lost to Miracles once (out of at least 7 matches) and haven't lost to Omnitell at all. LOL, although against Omnitell I've had some god hands. Turn 1, Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal into turn 1 Lodestone Golem. Turn 2. Another Ancient Tomb into another Lodestone Golem.

Anyone have any pointers for Infect or Elves? I find those matches difficult.

Uhm... I guess you gave the answer yourself right? Angel saves you from infect, emperion doesn't.... I choose Angel over Emperion because of this mainly. Yes emperion is a Golem which is a slight advantage, but 9 out of 10 times the angel/emperion hits the board through forgemaster search. So creature type isn't that important I think.

Airwave
08-16-2015, 08:08 AM
I think a more valid talking point would be Emperion vs Platinum Angel. They serve the same purpose of being defensive such that you won't lose.

Is the 1 mana more for emperion worth the "upgrade" in P/T? I understand that in many situations 1 mana away may mean "1 turn away a.k.a opponent gets one more turn to do stuff"

Now I admit I'm not good at this deck, so I took Airwaves list from pg 138 and gave it a spin (airwave thank you for that sideboarding guide its a boon to newer players).

My local meta is burn/merfolk/miracles(g2mentor)/omnitell/loamdecks...would a build like his be good for this meta? :)

Thanks in advance!

Glad you like it.

Your question: Yes I think you have the right deck for this meta. If you go more controllish burn and maybe merfolk will kill you. If you go more aggro/combo (with Goblin Welder for instance) loam and miracles will kill you.

So I guess you're right in the middle of these two and it fits.
Good luck! :smile:

Airwave
08-16-2015, 08:11 AM
Reclamation Sage is going to be found with Green Sun's Zenith so chalice on 3 will not be useful in stopping it

True. I always hit the second chalice at either 1 (again!) or 4 if I have lots of mana to stop Natural Order, but that rarely happens...

bruizar
08-16-2015, 10:55 AM
Okay, after a lot of brewing I've got another red/green variation (that's still in progress). And I'd like to share it with you. Bare in mind, this is a paper tiger that needs tweaking (not enough mana atm)


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain

4 Ruination
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sylvan Library

4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker

3 Sundering Titan
3 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


Notable cards:
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
It blocks flyers and attacks and is very expensive to get rid of.

Sundering Titan
Destroys lands!

Elsewhere Flask
It helps you play a land with a city of traitors in play, cantrips, and turns all your land into basics right before you fire off a Ruination. Also defends against Wastelands.

Ruination
Aggressively costed and potentially one sided armageddon that works extremely well with Lodestone Golems and Trinisphere

Punishing Fire
Mop up utility creatures

Sylvan Library
Card selection is good

Wurmcoil Engine
Need bombs with life gain

Alex Holland
08-16-2015, 12:03 PM
Okay, after a lot of brewing I've got another red/green variation (that's still in progress). And I'd like to share it with you. Bare in mind, this is a paper tiger that needs tweaking (not enough mana atm)


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain

4 Ruination
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sylvan Library

4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker

3 Sundering Titan
3 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


Notable cards:
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
It blocks flyers and attacks and is very expensive to get rid of.

Sundering Titan
Destroys lands!

Elsewhere Flask
It helps you play a land with a city of traitors in play, cantrips, and turns all your land into basics right before you fire off a Ruination. Also defends against Wastelands.

Ruination
Aggressively costed and potentially one sided armageddon that works extremely well with Lodestone Golems and Trinisphere

Punishing Fire
Mop up utility creatures

Sylvan Library
Card selection is good

Wurmcoil Engine
Need bombs with life gain


27 artifacts seems a bit meh for poor metalworker.

Flask and ruination seem fun but resolving two spells for combo? i can think of 2 card combos that are cheaper and artifacts thus tutorable.

bruizar
08-16-2015, 01:07 PM
Yes, 27 artifacts concerned me too. I'm not even sure whether or not I'm sticking with Metalworker. Orcish Lumberjack looks better in this build but requires cavern of souls somewhere.

Sylvan plug sideboards 3 Ruination without a way to protect its own manabase. I don't need to assemble both of the pieces to be good. Elsewhere Flask is great without Ruination as it can save your ancient tomb from wasteland or allow you to play a second city of traitors without having to sacrifice the first one. It also serves as a mana fixer in a pinch. Blood Moon is the better card, but if you do assemble the combo you outright win, and that for a very unobtrusive manacost.

I understand that you're referring to painter/grindstone. I don't believe that argument holds. Grindstone and Goblin Welder get countered by Chalice of the Void and require a vastly different set up. If you're referring to Staff/Metalworker/Kuldotha Forgemaster, I still think Kuldotha Forgemaster is a liability and have never been a fan.

darkgh0st
08-16-2015, 05:50 PM
Another alternate to Metalworker @ 3cc is Worn Powerstone.

Weebo
08-16-2015, 05:53 PM
That's not how Elsewhere Flask works. Turning lands into a basic land type doesn't turn them into basic lands. Ruination/Wasteland still get them. It works to get around City's sacrifice trigger and color fix, but that's about it.

bruizar
08-16-2015, 06:16 PM
That's not how Elsewhere Flask works. Turning lands into a basic land type doesn't turn them into basic lands. Ruination/Wasteland still get them. It works to get around City's sacrifice trigger and color fix, but that's about it.

Checked the rulings. You're right. Scrap the idea. It gold fished rather nicely under the false rules though.

movingtonewao
08-16-2015, 10:19 PM
bruizar I still like your daretti stax idea better :) if only there was a faster wincon

Rikter
08-17-2015, 08:39 AM
I maindeck the emperion over the angel because it is the more robust threat and is harder to deal with. Angel comes in from the board in match ups where I also need my dismembers, since you can't cast dismember with emperion in play. This is mostly against berserk infect, but also maverick.
Contagion clasp is very good vs decks like elves and infect, it's important to lower your curve and have turn one answers. To this end, dismember is also very good vs infect, though I wouldn't run it against elves. I'm experimenting with contagion engine as well for elves, delver, dnt and berserk infect. So far it has been very good. I always find myself a turn short on Ugin vs elves but the engine at 6 is manageable. I can almost always hit 6 vs elves but not 8 before they go off.

movingtonewao
08-17-2015, 09:30 AM
Glad you like it.

Your question: Yes I think you have the right deck for this meta. If you go more controllish burn and maybe merfolk will kill you. If you go more aggro/combo (with Goblin Welder for instance) loam and miracles will kill you.

So I guess you're right in the middle of these two and it fits.
Good luck! :smile:

Thanks for replying! Also, would you mind adding in 'food chain griffin' and 'oops all spells' sideboard strategies? :) (for completeness purposes)

Rikter
08-17-2015, 10:03 AM
Thanks for replying! Also, would you mind adding in 'food chain griffin' and 'oops all spells' sideboard strategies? :) (for completeness purposes)

Vs food chain he has 2 revokers, needle won't hit the food chain since it is a mana ability. The other stuff seems less than relevant.

Vs Oops all spells, add the thorns, trinisphere and pithing needle, you could add the revokers as well. You can pretty much remove any cards that aren't lodestone golem or trinisphere.

movingtonewao
08-17-2015, 11:47 AM
wow thanks for the response!

read your previous post as well. How many contagion clasps do you run? I'm assuming 3 or so since you want it in your opening hand.

Also regarding contagion engine, try to count the number of times you play it where it would have made a difference between life or death (had the engine been ugin instead). That data would help better I think.

Rikter
08-17-2015, 12:19 PM
wow thanks for the response!

read your previous post as well. How many contagion clasps do you run? I'm assuming 3 or so since you want it in your opening hand.

Also regarding contagion engine, try to count the number of times you play it where it would have made a difference between life or death (had the engine been ugin instead). That data would help better I think.

I have a 2/3 split on clasp and dismember, so for Infect I have 5 viable turn one drops. I have the reverse of the data you are looking for, which is the number of games where I died on 7 mana with Ugin in hand, and wiping their board basically ends the game. I have only tested engine vs DnT and Infect but it has shown itself to be legit.

I am also removing Duplicant from my board, at least until Sneak and Show is a thing again, and replacing him with a triskilion, which also helps vs Delver, DnT, Elves and Infect, the last three of which can be difficult match ups without a dedicated sideboard plan.

I did a lot of infect testing on Friday using the following SB plan:

-2 Ugin +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Platinum Emperion +1 Platinum Angel
-1 Blightsteel Colossus +3 Dismember
-1 Sundering Titan +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Trinisphere +1 Tsabos Web
-2 Wurmcoil Engine +1 Triskelion
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
The results were overwhelmingly positive. I spent the night on the draw and it didn't really matter at all. Having a lot of turn 1 interaction with infect is key.

vs Death and Taxes I SB:
-4 Trinisphere +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Spine +1 Tsabos Web
-1 Wurmcoil +1 Contagion Engine
+1 Triskelion
This matchup is slower and Ugin is still good. Revoker has plenty of targets, clasp is there to kill enemy Revokers (also messes with vial), web can shut them down hard and engine is a board wipe. Trinisphere is horrible vs DnT, sundering titan is close to useless and Engine is generally better than spine.

vs Elves
-2 Ugin +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Clasp
-1 Spine of Ish Sah +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Blightsteel +1 Triskelion
-1 Flex spot depends on play or draw

I take out the stuff that is too slow. Revoker is good to shut down Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid, Deathrite Shaman in pretty much that order.

Silverflame
08-17-2015, 01:04 PM
I have a 2/3 split on clasp and dismember, so for Infect I have 5 viable turn one drops. I have the reverse of the data you are looking for, which is the number of games where I died on 7 mana with Ugin in hand, and wiping their board basically ends the game. I have only tested engine vs DnT and Infect but it has shown itself to be legit.

I am also removing Duplicant from my board, at least until Sneak and Show is a thing again, and replacing him with a triskilion, which also helps vs Delver, DnT, Elves and Infect, the last three of which can be difficult match ups without a dedicated sideboard plan.

I did a lot of infect testing on Friday using the following SB plan:

-2 Ugin +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Platinum Emperion +1 Platinum Angel
-1 Blightsteel Colossus +3 Dismember
-1 Sundering Titan +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Trinisphere +1 Tsabos Web
-2 Wurmcoil Engine +1 Triskelion
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
The results were overwhelmingly positive. I spent the night on the draw and it didn't really matter at all. Having a lot of turn 1 interaction with infect is key.

vs Death and Taxes I SB:
-4 Trinisphere +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Spine +1 Tsabos Web
-1 Wurmcoil +1 Contagion Engine
+1 Triskelion
This matchup is slower and Ugin is still good. Revoker has plenty of targets, clasp is there to kill enemy Revokers (also messes with vial), web can shut them down hard and engine is a board wipe. Trinisphere is horrible vs DnT, sundering titan is close to useless and Engine is generally better than spine.

vs Elves
-2 Ugin +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Clasp
-1 Spine of Ish Sah +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Blightsteel +1 Triskelion
-1 Flex spot depends on play or draw

I take out the stuff that is too slow. Revoker is good to shut down Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid, Deathrite Shaman in pretty much that order.

I like your ideas, but IMHO 3 dismember, 2 clasp + engine is too much creature hate and the SB seems weak against omnishow. I went to 2 tournaments with 40 players this week, in an unknown meta, and I ended up facing a lot of mentor miracles and omnishows. Contagion engine worked against mentor when I tried siding it in, but omnishow is a hard match.
One game I went T1 chalice that was fow'ed, he S&T and I showed trini, he went omniscience. Then delved 3 to dig for emrakul and wrecked me. For now, I gonna put spine back in the deck for lack of better answers.

Rikter
08-17-2015, 02:08 PM
I like your ideas, but IMHO 3 dismember, 2 clasp + engine is too much creature hate and the SB seems weak against omnishow. I went to 2 tournaments with 40 players this week, in an unknown meta, and I ended up facing a lot of mentor miracles and omnishows. Contagion engine worked against mentor when I tried siding it in, but omnishow is a hard match.
One game I went T1 chalice that was fow'ed, he S&T and I showed trini, he went omniscience. Then delved 3 to dig for emrakul and wrecked me. For now, I gonna put spine back in the deck for lack of better answers.

I do have a lot of hate for the creature matchups, but in a year of testing in tournaments ranging from 15 people to 550 I have found that the real issues for this deck come from the creature lists. Miracles isn't a bad matchup, though the presence of mentor makes it a little harder. Storm is practically a free win. I used to run thorn of amethyst in the board for storm like others do, but the matchup is so lopsided that it was wasted slots, and the revokers I currently bring in pull duty in other matchups.

Regarding omnitell: the deck is busted, and even with spine you are in trouble. I played at the SCG 20k in DC last weekend and drew Omni round three. He show and telled omniscience to my spine. With spine trigger on the stack he just did his cast a million spells for free nonsense, trick binded spine and blew me out. Your best bet is to have trinisphere in play or land a chalice at 3, which they scoop to. That deck is beyond stupid, and I am pretty certain we are going to see bans come September to address it. We are one of the decks that are more naturally resistant to it, between 3sphere and chalice so I just roll with it. I don't think I actually sideboard anything against them.

At some point you just have to concede that a particular deck is over the top dumb, and there isn't a ton of hate that we can throw, beyond what is already in the starting 60, so I just write it off and concentrate on other matchups. Especially since the stuff I could board in vs omni (thorns or sphere of resistance) are cards I wouldn't bring in against anything other than storm, which is so laughably lopsided in our favor that I don't want to waste slots.

Silverflame
08-17-2015, 03:59 PM
I do have a lot of hate for the creature matchups, but in a year of testing in tournaments ranging from 15 people to 550 I have found that the real issues for this deck come from the creature lists. Miracles isn't a bad matchup, though the presence of mentor makes it a little harder. Storm is practically a free win. I used to run thorn of amethyst in the board for storm like others do, but the matchup is so lopsided that it was wasted slots, and the revokers I currently bring in pull duty in other matchups.

Regarding omnitell: the deck is busted, and even with spine you are in trouble. I played at the SCG 20k in DC last weekend and drew Omni round three. He show and telled omniscience to my spine. With spine trigger on the stack he just did his cast a million spells for free nonsense, trick binded spine and blew me out. Your best bet is to have trinisphere in play or land a chalice at 3, which they scoop to. That deck is beyond stupid, and I am pretty certain we are going to see bans come September to address it. We are one of the decks that are more naturally resistant to it, between 3sphere and chalice so I just roll with it. I don't think I actually sideboard anything against them.

At some point you just have to concede that a particular deck is over the top dumb, and there isn't a ton of hate that we can throw, beyond what is already in the starting 60, so I just write it off and concentrate on other matchups. Especially since the stuff I could board in vs omni (thorns or sphere of resistance) are cards I wouldn't bring in against anything other than storm, which is so laughably lopsided in our favor that I don't want to waste slots.

I see what you mean in the spine situation, although it hadn't happened to me (yet), it is bound to happen. I'm also not a fan of thorn for the same reasons.
DTT is also ridiculously good and steal games many times, but Relic of Progenitus is too slow and Tormod is just useless, so of the blue decks, I only side it in against grixis control. Do you have any suggestions to answer it?

BlackHawkX9
08-17-2015, 06:57 PM
Regarding omnitell: the deck is busted, and even with spine you are in trouble. I played at the SCG 20k in DC last weekend and drew Omni round three. He show and telled omniscience to my spine. With spine trigger on the stack he just did his cast a million spells for free nonsense, trick binded spine and blew me out. Your best bet is to have trinisphere in play or land a chalice at 3, which they scoop to. That deck is beyond stupid, and I am pretty certain we are going to see bans come September to address it. We are one of the decks that are more naturally resistant to it, between 3sphere and chalice so I just roll with it. I don't think I actually sideboard anything against them.

At some point you just have to concede that a particular deck is over the top dumb, and there isn't a ton of hate that we can throw, beyond what is already in the starting 60, so I just write it off and concentrate on other matchups. Especially since the stuff I could board in vs omni (thorns or sphere of resistance) are cards I wouldn't bring in against anything other than storm, which is so laughably lopsided in our favor that I don't want to waste slots.

If you're going to accept defeat against a deck and not sideboard for it, you're better off not laying down to the most dominant combo deck in the format, and pray you don't hit it. You're better off boarding for omni tell with thorns, and having it randomly help you with storm, oops, and even helps against the pyro or monastery decks that spam spells to puke out dudes.

Run the spread of blanket sideboard stuff. I run 2x pithing needle, 2x phyrexian revoker, 2x tormods crypt, 2x thorn of amethyst.

Also, on the argument of platinum angel vs platinum emperion, run 1, the other or even both. Both are good silver bullets for different scenarios. Yes, angel stops the alternate win decks, like infect, painter grind, or like oops, and emperion is more versatile and usable against, burn, and other tempo decks. Both are for defensive purposes mainly, and shouldn't be treated as a threat. If they swing for the win, that's a bonus. I've won by 2x metalworker beatdown several times, doesn't mean that should be their main role. I personally run emperion, because it is desired in more circumstances than angel.

Airwave
08-18-2015, 04:47 AM
If you're going to accept defeat against a deck and not sideboard for it, you're better off not laying down to the most dominant combo deck in the format, and pray you don't hit it. You're better off boarding for omni tell with thorns, and having it randomly help you with storm, oops, and even helps against the pyro or monastery decks that spam spells to puke out dudes.

Run the spread of blanket sideboard stuff. I run 2x pithing needle, 2x phyrexian revoker, 2x tormods crypt, 2x thorn of amethyst.

Also, on the argument of platinum angel vs platinum emperion, run 1, the other or even both. Both are good silver bullets for different scenarios. Yes, angel stops the alternate win decks, like infect, painter grind, or like oops, and emperion is more versatile and usable against, burn, and other tempo decks. Both are for defensive purposes mainly, and shouldn't be treated as a threat. If they swing for the win, that's a bonus. I've won by 2x metalworker beatdown several times, doesn't mean that should be their main role. I personally run emperion, because it is desired in more circumstances than angel.

I agree. Never accept defeat! Your sideboard is there for the bad matchups in the first place. Especially those that come by often like omni. With a pack of thorn added this matchup could be favored.

And I'm not that sure they'll ban it. There are answers for it. I think reanimator hits them like 80% of the matchups with all of their discards, forces and..... iona! :eek:

On the angel/empirion discussion: I guess it depends on the meta. But the difference is small. I've played both many times, very rarely it makes a difference (lost once with emperion against infect and once with angel against burn, so also there it's evenish :wink:)

Airwave
08-18-2015, 04:48 AM
Thanks for replying! Also, would you mind adding in 'food chain griffin' and 'oops all spells' sideboard strategies? :) (for completeness purposes)

I've never played these two decks and haven't tested against them as well so can't help you there, but what Rikter says seems to make sense. Food chain hates revoker! :laugh:

Alex Holland
08-18-2015, 04:54 AM
Why would u use clasp over ratchet bomb? really. ratchet is som much more versatile.

Rikter
08-18-2015, 09:51 AM
If you're going to accept defeat against a deck and not sideboard for it, you're better off not laying down to the most dominant combo deck in the format, and pray you don't hit it. You're better off boarding for omni tell with thorns, and having it randomly help you with storm, oops, and even helps against the pyro or monastery decks that spam spells to puke out dudes.

Run the spread of blanket sideboard stuff. I run 2x pithing needle, 2x phyrexian revoker, 2x tormods crypt, 2x thorn of amethyst.

Also, on the argument of platinum angel vs platinum emperion, run 1, the other or even both. Both are good silver bullets for different scenarios. Yes, angel stops the alternate win decks, like infect, painter grind, or like oops, and emperion is more versatile and usable against, burn, and other tempo decks. Both are for defensive purposes mainly, and shouldn't be treated as a threat. If they swing for the win, that's a bonus. I've won by 2x metalworker beatdown several times, doesn't mean that should be their main role. I personally run emperion, because it is desired in more circumstances than angel.

Woah there! Who said anything about accepting defeat? Laying down? The matchup isn't great but we already maindeck 12 cards that are really good against them and the stuff I would board in is so narrow that I'd rather not bother. Sure, Omnitell is the dominant combo deck, but as a %age of the field Creature Decks>>>>> Omnitell.

Needle conflicts with Chalice on 1, so I don't run it. For Eternal Weekend I'm swapping out Tormod's Crypt for Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and so Reanimator can't counter it. Not a fan of Thorn. I used to run all the cards you mention but only the Revokers have stuck.




Why would u use clasp over ratchet bomb? really. ratchet is som much more versatile.

Ratchet bomb is too slow for what I need it to do, which is to answer something on turn 1, and to answer something for only 2 mana. Against DnT it can be really important to not spend 3 turns before you can kill a Phyrexian Revoker, and it needs to be Clasp and not Serrated Arrows because it's very realistic that you won't have the mana to get to something else. Against infect, if you don't have a way to kill a glistener elf turn 1, you might not get another turn to kill it. There are also random interactions off of proliferate, which are not a reason to play the card, but do exist and can be incredibly relevant, most notably aether vial on 3 on the stack, proliferate. It could also be relevant with your own Chalice of the Void, Ugin or Triskelion.

I run ratchet bomb, its good for killing flipped delvers and tokens, but it serves a much different role than Clasp.

BlackHawkX9
08-19-2015, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=Rikter;899399]Woah there! Who said anything about accepting defeat? Laying down? The matchup isn't great but we already maindeck 12 cards that are really good against them and the stuff I would board in is so narrow that I'd rather not bother. Sure, Omnitell is the dominant combo deck, but as a %age of the field Creature Decks>>>>> Omnitell.

Needle conflicts with Chalice on 1, so I don't run it. For Eternal Weekend I'm swapping out Tormod's Crypt for Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and so Reanimator can't counter it. Not a fan of Thorn. I used to run all the cards you mention but only the Revokers have stuck.

Needle only conflicts with chalice, where chalice on 1 matters. I'm still x-1 vs RG lands by going needle on stage, then chalice on 2. Chalice on 1 is annoying for them, but chalice on 2 shuts them down. Also, needle helps vs the elves match some, where you don't care what pieces of hate you get, you just need answers.

Rikter
08-19-2015, 08:56 AM
[QUOTE=Rikter;899399]Woah there! Who said anything about accepting defeat? Laying down? The matchup isn't great but we already maindeck 12 cards that are really good against them and the stuff I would board in is so narrow that I'd rather not bother. Sure, Omnitell is the dominant combo deck, but as a %age of the field Creature Decks>>>>> Omnitell.

Needle conflicts with Chalice on 1, so I don't run it. For Eternal Weekend I'm swapping out Tormod's Crypt for Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and so Reanimator can't counter it. Not a fan of Thorn. I used to run all the cards you mention but only the Revokers have stuck.

Needle only conflicts with chalice, where chalice on 1 matters. I'm still x-1 vs RG lands by going needle on stage, then chalice on 2. Chalice on 1 is annoying for them, but chalice on 2 shuts them down. Also, needle helps vs the elves match some, where you don't care what pieces of hate you get, you just need answers.

Thats true about RG lands, where shutting off fire and loam is big time. I may end up running needle again at some point, for now though vs lands I am on the chalice, tsabo's web and faerie macabre plan.

movingtonewao
08-19-2015, 09:46 AM
a couple questions:

against elves, what do you name with revoker/needle first? what if you draw a second?

against lands, if I play needle, and he changes his thespians stage into some other land in response (lets say a forest), should I name "thespians stage" or "forest" when needle resolves?

Rikter
08-19-2015, 10:51 AM
a couple questions:

against elves, what do you name with revoker/needle first? what if you draw a second?

against lands, if I play needle, and he changes his thespians stage into some other land in response (lets say a forest), should I name "thespians stage" or "forest" when needle resolves?


1) Against elves our prime two targets to shut off are going to be wirewood symbiote (endless recursion of reclamation sage is bad news, endless blanking an attacker is bad news, endless recursion of visionary is bad news) or heritage druid, which makes it harder for them to go off with glimpse. Your sub targets are going to be either deathrite shaman or birchlore ranger, in that order, so you can either keep them off of life gain (drain is less relevant since the only instants/sorceries are their Orders and Glimpses, and if those resolve DRS is the least of your worries) or keep them off colors and hurt their Glimpse chain. Revoker is better than needle vs elves because Revoker doesn't nombo with Chalice at 1, and Revoker hits mana abilities like Heritage Druid.

As far as what you name first, it's sort of a toss up. Both symbiote and heritage druid will wreck your day, and they are both 4 of so it's equally likely they have one or the other. I would lean towards naming Heritage druid, since they can smash you the turn they play it. They can use wirewood same turn as well, but the Druid is more likely to end the game before you can drop Revoker in response. Your board state and lock pieces will also factor in; if you have trinisphere out you would lean more towards Revoking wirewood in the dark since 3sphere is already doing work against druid.

2) In the scenario described above against Lands, you would name Forest if the guy copies a Forest in response to you playing needle, and you want to shut off that particular stage. The relevant rule is below:

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics . The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty)

potatodavid
08-20-2015, 09:55 AM
Piloted This Monstrosity to a 3-0 Draw for last night at the Mead Hall in Minneapolis. Only dropped one game all night. Played BUG Nic Fit, Storm, & Tezzerator Drew with other 3-0 player on Omnitell to end my night with one loss to Storm.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

CREATURES (18)

1 Platinum Angel
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
SPELLS (17)

4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
4 Grim Monolith
2 Coercive Portal
PLANESWALKERS (2)

2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
LAND (23)

4 City Of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
SIDEBOARD (15)

1 Steel Hellkite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Karn Liberated
1 Contagion Engine
2 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
1 Bottled Cloister

Round 1.

Bug Nicfit

Game 1. T1 He probes me, then casts cabal therapy jerking my chalice of the void from my hand. I draw a second one like a champ and play it on my turn. I follow that up with double lodestone golem for the win.
Game 2. He gets a much faster hand and yanks my chalice followed by 2 veteran explorers which he uses to therapy away my hand. My land drops are, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, cloudpost, Vesuva. He drops a turn 4 Baleful strix. I drop a turn 4 Ugin. I wipe his board and drop a turn 5 hard casted Blightsteel.

Round 2.

Storm
Game 1. I lose the die roll. He goes Turn 1. Make 8 goblins. I scoop because my hand of Chalice, 3 ball isn't gonna get the job done in this situation.
Game 2. Chalice, thorn , Wurmcoil gets the job done.
Game 3. I'm expecting the same thing that happened game 1 to happen now in game 3. He mulls to 4 keeps a no lander, probes. wiffs on the probe to draw him a land. I chalice, followed by 3 ball, followed by Lodestone. GG's!

Round 3.

Tezzerator

Game 1. Turns out Ugin is stupid good against an army of blue thopters.
Game 2. he pithing needles ugin after I stabilize with him. I proceed to forgemaster my spine of ish sah a bunch of times. Get a platinum angel in play. Miss a whole bunch of opportunities to probably end the game way sooner than it did end. I know I definitely forgemastered 3 artifacts and never went and grabbed something from my deck at one point. I was nervous because I was on camera. At one point in time, he has 30 life and 30 thopters but I have angel in play. I draw ugin, forge the spine, play the spine, blow up needle Following turn play ugin. Wipe his board forge for Blightsteel GG's

Round 4.

Omnitell

We split because Jason wants to drink beer, and I want to go to bed.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Cards That were allstars:

UGIN is completely stupid. Every time I cast him, it sealed the deal for me without question.

Coercive portal. I played this card in the tezzerator match up and it was completely busted. Probably half the reason why I won. was able to draw my threats way faster and take control of the match that way.

EmoPizza
08-20-2015, 10:14 AM
Piloted This Monstrosity to a 3-0 Draw for last night at the Mead Hall in Minneapolis. Only dropped one game all night. Played BUG Nic Fit, Storm, & Tezzerator Drew with other 3-0 player on Omnitell to end my night with one loss to Storm.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

CREATURES (18)

1 Platinum Angel
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
SPELLS (17)

4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
4 Grim Monolith
2 Coercive Portal
PLANESWALKERS (2)

2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
LAND (23)

4 City Of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
SIDEBOARD (15)

1 Steel Hellkite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Karn Liberated
1 Contagion Engine
2 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
1 Bottled Cloister

Round 1.

Bug Nicfit

Game 1. T1 He probes me, then casts cabal therapy jerking my chalice of the void from my hand. I draw a second one like a champ and play it on my turn. I follow that up with double lodestone golem for the win.
Game 2. He gets a much faster hand and yanks my chalice followed by 2 veteran explorers which he uses to therapy away my hand. My land drops are, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, cloudpost, Vesuva. He drops a turn 4 Baleful strix. I drop a turn 4 Ugin. I wipe his board and drop a turn 5 hard casted Blightsteel.

Round 2.

Storm
Game 1. I lose the die roll. He goes Turn 1. Make 8 goblins. I scoop because my hand of Chalice, 3 ball isn't gonna get the job done in this situation.
Game 2. Chalice, thorn , Wurmcoil gets the job done.
Game 3. I'm expecting the same thing that happened game 1 to happen now in game 3. He mulls to 4 keeps a no lander, probes. wiffs on the probe to draw him a land. I chalice, followed by 3 ball, followed by Lodestone. GG's!

Round 3.

Tezzerator

Game 1. Turns out Ugin is stupid good against an army of blue thopters.
Game 2. he pithing needles ugin after I stabilize with him. I proceed to forgemaster my spine of ish sah a bunch of times. Get a platinum angel in play. Miss a whole bunch of opportunities to probably end the game way sooner than it did end. I know I definitely forgemastered 3 artifacts and never went and grabbed something from my deck at one point. I was nervous because I was on camera. At one point in time, he has 30 life and 30 thopters but I have angel in play. I draw ugin, forge the spine, play the spine, blow up needle Following turn play ugin. Wipe his board forge for Blightsteel GG's

Round 4.

Omnitell

We split because Jason wants to drink beer, and I want to go to bed.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Cards That were allstars:

UGIN is completely stupid. Every time I cast him, it sealed the deal for me without question.

Coercive portal. I played this card in the tezzerator match up and it was completely busted. Probably half the reason why I won. was able to draw my threats way faster and take control of the match that way.
23 lands? I'm not convinced that's correct. I also notice you didn't play against any wasteland decks (except maybe Tez).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

Rikter
08-20-2015, 10:21 AM
Piloted This Monstrosity to a 3-0 Draw for last night at the Mead Hall in Minneapolis. Only dropped one game all night. Played BUG Nic Fit, Storm, & Tezzerator Drew with other 3-0 player on Omnitell to end my night with one loss to Storm.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

CREATURES (18)

1 Platinum Angel
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
SPELLS (17)

4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
4 Grim Monolith
2 Coercive Portal
PLANESWALKERS (2)

2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
LAND (23)

4 City Of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
SIDEBOARD (15)

1 Steel Hellkite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Karn Liberated
1 Contagion Engine
2 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
1 Bottled Cloister

Round 1.

Bug Nicfit

Game 1. T1 He probes me, then casts cabal therapy jerking my chalice of the void from my hand. I draw a second one like a champ and play it on my turn. I follow that up with double lodestone golem for the win.
Game 2. He gets a much faster hand and yanks my chalice followed by 2 veteran explorers which he uses to therapy away my hand. My land drops are, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, cloudpost, Vesuva. He drops a turn 4 Baleful strix. I drop a turn 4 Ugin. I wipe his board and drop a turn 5 hard casted Blightsteel.

Round 2.

Storm
Game 1. I lose the die roll. He goes Turn 1. Make 8 goblins. I scoop because my hand of Chalice, 3 ball isn't gonna get the job done in this situation.
Game 2. Chalice, thorn , Wurmcoil gets the job done.
Game 3. I'm expecting the same thing that happened game 1 to happen now in game 3. He mulls to 4 keeps a no lander, probes. wiffs on the probe to draw him a land. I chalice, followed by 3 ball, followed by Lodestone. GG's!

Round 3.

Tezzerator

Game 1. Turns out Ugin is stupid good against an army of blue thopters.
Game 2. he pithing needles ugin after I stabilize with him. I proceed to forgemaster my spine of ish sah a bunch of times. Get a platinum angel in play. Miss a whole bunch of opportunities to probably end the game way sooner than it did end. I know I definitely forgemastered 3 artifacts and never went and grabbed something from my deck at one point. I was nervous because I was on camera. At one point in time, he has 30 life and 30 thopters but I have angel in play. I draw ugin, forge the spine, play the spine, blow up needle Following turn play ugin. Wipe his board forge for Blightsteel GG's

Round 4.

Omnitell

We split because Jason wants to drink beer, and I want to go to bed.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Cards That were allstars:

UGIN is completely stupid. Every time I cast him, it sealed the deal for me without question.

Coercive portal. I played this card in the tezzerator match up and it was completely busted. Probably half the reason why I won. was able to draw my threats way faster and take control of the match that way.


Nice report, our lists are very similar, though that is to be expected for the most part. Ugin is completely ridiculous, it's unusual to lose a game where he resolves.

bruizar
08-20-2015, 10:41 AM
Haha that game on camera sounds like gold :). Don't sweat it. It's hilarious misplaying like crazy because of nerves. All the people watching thinking what the fuck is this moron doing how did he get there, not realizing the camera puts pressure on you and you become so self aware that you make fuck-ups left and right. Do you have a link to the video? I'd love to see it since it sounds like a hilarious game where you went over the top with broken plays.

potatodavid
08-20-2015, 12:07 PM
23 lands? I'm not convinced that's correct. I also notice you didn't play against any wasteland decks (except maybe Tez).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

I run 23 lands in this deck. I don't have a problem casting spells and yes thankfully I didn't run into any wasteland decks which would probably contribute a lot to my success on the night. My meta is full of storm and 12 post turbo eldrazi.

potatodavid
08-20-2015, 12:09 PM
Haha that game on camera sounds like gold :). Don't sweat it. It's hilarious misplaying like crazy because of nerves. All the people watching thinking what the fuck is this moron doing how did he get there, not realizing the camera puts pressure on you and you become so self aware that you make fuck-ups left and right. Do you have a link to the video? I'd love to see it since it sounds like a hilarious game where you went over the top with broken plays.


The Video would be on the Meadery's youtube channel if it's going to be anywhere. They have not posted any of these Wednesday night videos since June or so. So i doubt they'll start posting them again. They have a twitch channel that they play the wednesday night legacy from. Its good stuff.

Rikter
08-20-2015, 12:12 PM
I run 23 lands in this deck. I don't have a problem casting spells and yes thankfully I didn't run into any wasteland decks which would probably contribute a lot to my success on the night. My meta is full of storm and 12 post turbo eldrazi.

23 is not unusual, most of the lists I see (i.e. that cashed) run 23 or 24. I am at 24 currently, and it's fine. Wasteland isn't fantastic but the deck runs a ton of mana...wasteland is typically only a problem for me when they open with something like 3 straight wastelands, which can be tough to recover from.

Silverflame
08-20-2015, 04:36 PM
23 is not unusual, most of the lists I see (i.e. that cashed) run 23 or 24. I am at 24 currently, and it's fine. Wasteland isn't fantastic but the deck runs a ton of mana...wasteland is typically only a problem for me when they open with something like 3 straight wastelands, which can be tough to recover from.

wasteland followed by surgical extraction also hurts a lot, specially when you T1 cloudpost go, but apart from BUG shardless, it is not a common play.

movingtonewao
08-20-2015, 10:16 PM
new mulligan rule is a thing now. I suppose thats a good thing for this deck overall :)

bruizar
08-21-2015, 03:40 AM
To get back to Contagion Clasp and its use against Infect. My sideboard card of choice is Spellskite. It's much more usable imo since it comes down as fast, steals pump spells and blocks Glistener Elf.

keys
08-21-2015, 08:39 AM
If you play 4 Vesuva and 2 Portal you can get by on 23 lands. But then you have to cut either Wasteland or Caverns, which sucks.

potatodavid
08-21-2015, 09:08 AM
Yeah I didn't play any wasteland decks, probably why I placed as well as I did.

I'm playing in a meta that has like 5-6 storm decks, 5-10 Omnitell Miracles, and 2 guys on 12 post 1 guy on Lands, & one guy in the corner playing delver.

movingtonewao
08-21-2015, 10:56 AM
To get back to Contagion Clasp and its use against Infect. My sideboard card of choice is Spellskite. It's much more usable imo since it comes down as fast, steals pump spells and blocks Glistener Elf.

Any other matchups where a spellskite might be useful to bring in?

EmoPizza
08-21-2015, 11:07 AM
Yeah I didn't play any wasteland decks, probably why I placed as well as I did.

I'm playing in a meta that has like 5-6 storm decks, 5-10 Omnitell Miracles, and 2 guys on 12 post 1 guy on Lands, & one guy in the corner playing delver.
Well, I can see why there's only one lands deck there.

And yes, Portal is sweet. It does an excellent job of drawing you out of land deficiencies while dodging Decay. I'm currently on a 1/1 split of it and Nin since staff beats LiliOtV and is actually something I'd Forgemaster for vs Infect and DnT. I'm also on 24 lands though.

I'm not sure if you want 4 Vesuva if you're shooting for 23 lands as any Comes-into-play-tapped land tends to be pretty awful in a City of Traitors deck if you don't already have a Post in play.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

bruizar
08-21-2015, 02:44 PM
Any other matchups where a spellskite might be useful to bring in?

Not really. I'm going off of this data http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31395_Examining-The-DC-Legacy-Open.html

Infect represented 8% of the meta 2.6 decks expected to top 32, 4 decks actual so I thought you might want some dedicated hate for it. Which match-ups do you side in contagion clasp besides infect?

movingtonewao
08-22-2015, 03:13 AM
delver, elves, goblins, and D&T come to mind. But I haven't actually played with either (spellskite or clasp), in my sideboard, so I'm just theorycrafting here.

movingtonewao
08-22-2015, 10:38 AM
what do we name for revoker against dredge?
do we sideboard differently against mana and manaless dredge?

Whitefaces
08-22-2015, 12:13 PM
what do we name for revoker against dredge?
do we sideboard differently against mana and manaless dredge?

Manaless - Phantasmagorian
Mana - LED

BTY
08-23-2015, 11:53 AM
Any other matchups where a spellskite might be useful to bring in?

I used to run it in early 2014 when Jund was a lot more popular to divert punishing fires mainly.

darkgh0st
08-23-2015, 12:56 PM
I used to run it in early 2014 when Jund was a lot more popular to divert punishing fires mainly.

I face Jund a lot at my local meta and struggle with the amount of removal Jund throws at me. I will try Spellskites, thanks for the tip. Diverting a critical Abrupt Decay, or even an Ancient Grudge would be helpful.

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-23-2015, 06:09 PM
I got 1st place with my MTGO list in a Daily . I cut Staff Of Domination because I find it takes too long to find the cards I want.
I don't remember much what I had in my sideboard and it's different now than it was but I drew a Silent Arbiter against Merfolk and was also side'ing All Is Dust which I drew against True-Name Nemesis in a different matchup . I also beat Miracles . My deck performed well because I was basically playing 4 Ugin without owning them. If I had 4 Ugin I'd have been playing them cutting the Trinisphere for a Thran Dynamo . That is how I want to play the deck. Another change I'd consider making is 4 Vesuva but I am unsure about it. I really dislike drawing the City of Traitors because I am trying to ramp to 8

4 Ancient Tomb

3 City of Traitors

4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost

3 Vesuva

2 Buried Ruin

4 Wasteland

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Trinisphere

2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

2 Coercive Portal

4 Grim Monolith

1 Lightning Greaves

1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Metalworker

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

4 Lodestone Golem

3 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Steel Hellkite

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Sundering Titan

sun tzu
08-24-2015, 03:44 AM
Have you guys tried omitting the lightning greaves for other cards?

I have tried playing without the greaves, and a lot of the time I dont really miss them, or am glad my hand doesnt have 1 of them and has some other card instead. For me it has always seemed too clunky in that it requires other things going well for it to work properly, and when they can interact 1 for 1 with your 'important' spells whilst keeping a fast clock on you it can be lights out before you can draw out of it. Losing a forgemaster in response to the equip is brutal, and they will still kill your forgemaster with the swords to plowshares or whatever anyways, so is it even worth the extra card that doesnt actually do anything by itself? I only see people running the miser or MAYBE 2 of them, so is it even worth it at all; other than the corner cases of completely uncontested 'magical christmas land' 2nd or 3rd turn kills?

Could this card be better relegated to the SB where it can hold its own against the combo matchups instead of taking a mainboard slot that would be better dedicated towards a blind field of 'fair' decks?

for example: swap of 1 greaves for 1 spellskite helps against instant speed removal, and protects key cards.

Bobmans
08-24-2015, 05:05 AM
Have you guys tried omitting the lightning greaves for other cards?

I have tried playing without the greaves, and a lot of the time I dont really miss them, or am glad my hand doesnt have 1 of them and has some other card instead. For me it has always seemed too clunky in that it requires other things going well for it to work properly, and when they can interact 1 for 1 with your 'important' spells whilst keeping a fast clock on you it can be lights out before you can draw out of it. Losing a forgemaster in response to the equip is brutal, and they will still kill your forgemaster with the swords to plowshares or whatever anyways, so is it even worth the extra card that doesnt actually do anything by itself? I only see people running the miser or MAYBE 2 of them, so is it even worth it at all; other than the corner cases of completely uncontested 'magical christmas land' 2nd or 3rd turn kills?

Could this card be better relegated to the SB where it can hold its own against the combo matchups instead of taking a mainboard slot that would be better dedicated towards a blind field of 'fair' decks?

for example: swap of 1 greaves for 1 spellskite helps against instant speed removal, and protects key cards.
Tbh, seeing the swift in playstyle of MUD with the coming of Cloudpost and Ugin i can see Lightning Greaves being replaced. But it depends on your goal/orientation. If you wanna stall/control the game until Ugin can take it over then drop Greaves. If you want explosiveness and quick combo finishes, then keep Greaves as a 2/3 off. On the other hand, Greaves provides various utility, not only in protection but sometimes being able to attack 1 turn earlier can be the difference between winning or losing. The same counts for protecting ie Platinum Emperion/Angel. Players tend to underestimate Lightning Greaves in this deck.

EmoPizza
08-24-2015, 08:09 AM
Tbh, seeing the swift in playstyle of MUD with the coming of Cloudpost and Ugin i can see Lightning Greaves being replaced. But it depends on your goal/orientation. If you wanna stall/control the game until Ugin can take it over then drop Greaves. If you want explosiveness and quick combo finishes, then keep Greaves as a 2/3 off. On the other hand, Greaves provides various utility, not only in protection but sometimes being able to attack 1 turn earlier can be the difference between winning or losing. The same counts for protecting ie Platinum Emperion/Angel. Players tend to underestimate Lightning Greaves in this deck.
Personally, I'm a fan of Greaves and play 2. They make killing walkers much easier. In some matchups, Greaves feels like a time walk. Going T1 boots, T2 Lodestone is pretty brutal in many matchups. Boots into metalworker feels like cheating as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

L10
08-24-2015, 10:40 AM
Hi everyone,

I played at the Eternal Weekend this weekend and had a blast. I went 6-0-1 (ID to Top 8) and lost to Mentor Miracles. At the Legacy Champs, I went 3-0 before losing to Lands three times in a row, so I dropped with a 3-3 record.

Here is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/

Wins:
Burn x2; Ponder Miracles; 4c Loam from Lille; OmniTell; TES; Painter; Elves; DnT

Losses:
Mentor Miracles; Lands x3

Some highlights:
Against Painter: T1, I played Cavern of Souls on Construct and played Voltaic Key. Turn 2, I played City of Traitors and Metalworker. Turn 3, tap Metalworker revealing five artifacts, untap with key, and tap again for 19 mana. Played Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Steel Hellkite.
Against Painter (again): He had a painter out and I cast Ugin for -0.
Against Elves: My opponent comboed off Turn 2. Fortunately, I had Lightning Greaves T1. T2 Metalworker, reveal 4 artifacts, cast Ugin, -2
Against OmniTell: He cast Probe and SnT into Emrakul T1 and I dropped Lightning Greaves. Played City of Traitors -> Grim Monolith -> Phyrexian Metamorph (top deck)
Against OmniTell (again): Grim Monolith + Voltaic Key got me Lodestone Golem T1, followed by a T2 Thorn of Amethyst, Followed by T3 Chalice @3.
I got to Ultimate Ugin twice, and won both immediately.
I won with Blightsteel Colossus 9x. Once by T2 and twice by T3. Got to hardcast Blightsteel vs. Burn with the help from Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key x2, and Thran Dynamo.

I am really thinking about replacing my 4 Revokers for Pithing Needles again Loam.dec, while still having utility against Miracles, DnT, etc, even if it does conflict with Chalice a bit. Maybe I am just approaching this match-up wrong.

bruizar
08-24-2015, 10:45 AM
Hi everyone,

I played at the Eternal Weekend this weekend and had a blast. I went 6-0-1 (ID to Top 8) and lost to Mentor Miracles. At the Legacy Champs, I went 3-0 before losing to Lands three times in a row, so I dropped with a 3-3 record.

Here is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/

Wins:
Burn x2; Ponder Miracles; 4c Loam from Lille; OmniTell; TES; Painter; Elves; DnT

Losses:
Mentor Miracles; Lands x3

Some highlights:
Against Painter: T1, I played Cavern of Souls on Construct and played Voltaic Key. Turn 2, I played City of Traitors and Metalworker. Turn 3, tap Metalworker revealing five artifacts, untap with key, and tap again for 19 mana. Played Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Steel Hellkite.
Against Painter (again): He had a painter out and I cast Ugin for -0.
Against Elves: My opponent comboed off Turn 2. Fortunately, I had Lightning Greaves T1. T2 Metalworker, reveal 4 artifacts, cast Ugin, -2
Against OmniTell: He cast Probe and SnT into Emrakul T1 and I dropped Lightning Greaves. Played City of Traitors -> Grim Monolith -> Phyrexian Metamorph (top deck)
Against OmniTell (again): Grim Monolith + Voltaic Key got me Lodestone Golem T1, followed by a T2 Thorn of Amethyst, Followed by T3 Chalice @3.
I got to Ultimate Ugin twice, and won both immediately.
I won with Blightsteel Colossus 9x. Once by T2 and twice by T3. Got to hardcast Blightsteel vs. Burn with the help from Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key x2, and Thran Dynamo.

I am really thinking about replacing my 4 Revokers for Pithing Needles again Loam.dec, while still having utility against Miracles, DnT, etc, even if it does conflict with Chalice a bit. Maybe I am just approaching this match-up wrong.

Those were some epic highlights. Perhaps you may want to side Ugin out for Karn against lands in addition to the Needles. Any other ways to beat lands?

L10
08-24-2015, 11:01 AM
Ugin actually helped me win a match against Lands b/c I kept Bolting to his face while he tried his best to punishing fire his way through to keep me from ultimate. Ugin is also a good win-con through Tabernacle under a Wasteland lock. The problem of course with both Karn and Ugin is that they don't contribute to Metalworker when helping them cast. I will need to play test Karn some more. I haven't played with his since I picked up Ugin, tbh.

I forgot another highlight. Against DnT, I had 2 Factories and a Voltaic Key. My opponent bashed in with a Batterskull only to get beaten up by a 5/5 Factory. He didn't know that was a thing.

BlackHawkX9
08-24-2015, 06:09 PM
Hi everyone,

I played at the Eternal Weekend this weekend and had a blast. I went 6-0-1 (ID to Top 8) and lost to Mentor Miracles. At the Legacy Champs, I went 3-0 before losing to Lands three times in a row, so I dropped with a 3-3 record.

Here is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/

Wins:
Burn x2; Ponder Miracles; 4c Loam from Lille; OmniTell; TES; Painter; Elves; DnT

Losses:
Mentor Miracles; Lands x3

Some highlights:
Against Painter: T1, I played Cavern of Souls on Construct and played Voltaic Key. Turn 2, I played City of Traitors and Metalworker. Turn 3, tap Metalworker revealing five artifacts, untap with key, and tap again for 19 mana. Played Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Steel Hellkite.
Against Painter (again): He had a painter out and I cast Ugin for -0.
Against Elves: My opponent comboed off Turn 2. Fortunately, I had Lightning Greaves T1. T2 Metalworker, reveal 4 artifacts, cast Ugin, -2
Against OmniTell: He cast Probe and SnT into Emrakul T1 and I dropped Lightning Greaves. Played City of Traitors -> Grim Monolith -> Phyrexian Metamorph (top deck)
Against OmniTell (again): Grim Monolith + Voltaic Key got me Lodestone Golem T1, followed by a T2 Thorn of Amethyst, Followed by T3 Chalice @3.
I got to Ultimate Ugin twice, and won both immediately.
I won with Blightsteel Colossus 9x. Once by T2 and twice by T3. Got to hardcast Blightsteel vs. Burn with the help from Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key x2, and Thran Dynamo.

I am really thinking about replacing my 4 Revokers for Pithing Needles again Loam.dec, while still having utility against Miracles, DnT, etc, even if it does conflict with Chalice a bit. Maybe I am just approaching this match-up wrong.

I really like your list. It seems like alot of fun. Cloud post package does make the deck slower and more susceptible to wasteland, so maybe it is time to change a bit to adapt to a faster format with all the combo and faster aggro, or maybe it's time to go back to the red splash for welder, or maybe a new beast that just abuses ugin. Also, you're experience seems to show the true power of lightning greaves.

I've had very good luck against rg lands using the strategy of going for the chalice on 2 instead of the 1. Also, I split the needle effects with 2 needle and 2 revoker. Also, running the 4 wastelands is fantastic to hold them off of the 20/20 beats.

bruizar
08-24-2015, 06:29 PM
maybe it's time to go back to the red splash for welder

I'm hoping there will be some really nice 2-color eldrazi with Devoid made for MUD. One that interacts with colorless creatures in a nice way (besides the haste one spoiled).

(nameless one)
08-24-2015, 06:36 PM
I'm hoping there will be some really nice 2-color eldrazi with Devoid made for MUD. One that interacts with colorless creatures in a nice way (besides the haste one spoiled).

This or something along the lines of Lodestone Golem

bruizar
08-24-2015, 06:45 PM
This or something along the lines of Lodestone Golem

Color Sphere Bear
RB
Devoid
Colored creature spells cost 1 more to play
2/2


Oh yes :-)

MGB
08-24-2015, 06:53 PM
How do you guys sideboard against Death n Taxes? How favorable is this matchup for MUD, exactly?

BlackHawkX9
08-24-2015, 07:30 PM
How do you guys sideboard against Death n Taxes? How favorable is this matchup for MUD, exactly?

DnT is a weird match up. Its about 50/50. Revoker, ratchet bomb, staff of nin all help, but there isn't a one true bomb that shuts down DnT.

L10
08-24-2015, 08:04 PM
I really like your list. It seems like alot of fun. Cloud post package does make the deck slower and more susceptible to wasteland, so maybe it is time to change a bit to adapt to a faster format with all the combo and faster aggro, or maybe it's time to go back to the red splash for welder, or maybe a new beast that just abuses ugin. Also, you're experience seems to show the true power of lightning greaves.
Thanks! Lightning Greaves and Voltaic Key are definitely the MVP over the weekend. I think their power level are the same as Chalice, which is why Voltaic Key warrant two slots for me. Voltaic Key+Ratchet Bomb lets me kill Lili in two turns, for example. Or allowing my to use Forgemaster twice in the same turn to find the right kill combination. My approach for this build was a very aggressive/proactive and combo mindset, and Lightning Greaves helps facilitate that. I went with a 2/2 split between Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine because a Steel Hellkite with haste is way scarier. Because I wanted to be more aggressive/proactive approach, I decided to not run Angel or Emperion in my main, since both cards are inherently defensive. I went for 4 Mishra's Factory and a Darksteel Citadel so I can use Forgemaster a few turns earlier. I can also show off my four season factories. :) As far as my list goes:

Land (21)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
1x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

Creature (18)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
2x Trinisphere
2x Voltaic Key

Flex (4)

Still tinkering with the last 4 slots. I think having 21 lands may be a bit greedy, so I may want two Darksteel Citadels.


I've had very good luck against rg lands using the strategy of going for the chalice on 2 instead of the 1. Also, I split the needle effects with 2 needle and 2 revoker. Also, running the 4 wastelands is fantastic to hold them off of the 20/20 beats.
I know that Chalice on 2 is nuts, but should I sandbag my Chalice if I can T1 on play? It shuts off Crop Rotation/Gamble/Manabond/Exploration. But yeah, the Loam Engine is what I am not afraid of. I will try the 2/2 split on Needle and Revoker. Thanks!


maybe it's time to go back to the red splash for welder
I used Fry's list with some success: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=876218&viewfull=1#post876218
Truth be told, that's way too many one-offs for my blood, but Fry loves his toys.
I am tinkering a Welder / Daretti list at the moment, but I haven't came up with solid core yet, or a way to abuse the engine. I am thinking something in the lines of Stax.


or maybe a new beast that just abuses ugin
How so?


How do you guys sideboard against Death n Taxes? How favorable is this matchup for MUD, exactly?
With my list, I'd go:
-2 Trinisphere (because it can bite us)
-1 Phyrexian Metamorph
-1 Sundering Titan
+3 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Platinum Emperion
On draw, I'd go one step further:
-4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Ratchet Bomb

If I have an active Chalice, I usually just fetch Blightsteel for the win unless I suspect Whisp shenanigans. Otherwise, I usually go for Staff on Nin and beat them with inevitability. Revoker on Metalworker can be brutal, Thran Dynamo or Grim Monolist + Key is usually enough for me to cast my threats. I think the first three or four turns usually determines the outcome, since we both play a tax game. It is a matter of who get's under our disruptions first.

Also, if I go to a known meta with a lot of DnT, I'd have Grim Poppet in my SB. It kills all their bears and they probably can't handle a 7/7.

Edit: Oh, never mind. Grim Poppet is only a 4/4. My bad. I remembered the card wrong.

BlackHawkX9
08-24-2015, 08:45 PM
Thanks! Lightning Greaves and Voltaic Key are definitely the MVP over the weekend. I think their power level are the same as Chalice, which is why Voltaic Key warrant two slots for me. Voltaic Key+Ratchet Bomb lets me kill Lili in two turns, for example. Or allowing my to use Forgemaster twice in the same turn to find the right kill combination. My approach for this build was a very aggressive/proactive and combo mindset, and Lightning Greaves helps facilitate that. I went with a 2/2 split between Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine because a Steel Hellkite with haste is way scarier. Because I wanted to be more aggressive/proactive approach, I decided to not run Angel or Emperion in my main, since both cards are inherently defensive. I went for 4 Mishra's Factory and a Darksteel Citadel so I can use Forgemaster a few turns earlier. I can also show off my four season factories. :) As far as my list goes:

Land (21)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
1x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

Creature (18)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
2x Trinisphere
2x Voltaic Key

Flex (4)

Still tinkering with the last 4 slots. I think having 21 lands may be a bit greedy, so I may want two Darksteel Citadels.


I know that Chalice on 2 is nuts, but should I sandbag my Chalice if I can T1 on play? It shuts off Crop Rotation/Gamble/Manabond/Exploration. But yeah, the Loam Engine is what I am not afraid of. I will try the 2/2 split on Needle and Revoker. Thanks!

I like the concept of voltaic key, but i could never bring myself to run it side by side with the chalice since we put it on 1 so often, unless i have a welder to recur it. Also, it conflicts with lightning greaves if you don't have a second creature to move the boots around.

21 lands feels super greedy, i don't think i could get behind running any less than 22 at the bare minimum. Maybe even consider a buried ruin since you have the main deck crucible.

Absolutely, sand bag the chalice if you have a wasteland. If no wasteland, than toss it out on 1 and hope for the best. Yes, chalice on 1 stops them from doing all those, except crop rotate, but if they can't loam, then you don't care about them having any of those. My best line of play vs RG lands has been T1. Wasteland, Needle (stage), T2. soul land, monolith, chalice 2. . . If you have a wasteland, you can mexican stand off with their depths combo easily, and with chalice on 2, they just draw 1 card each turn like the rest of us, and do very little with it. And then after you land chalice for 2 (in games 2 or 3) you go chalice on 3 for the Krosan grip that they board for counter balance that they dual purpose for you also, and then they flounder around so bad, you can even kill them with metalworker beats if you have to.

A new breed of MUD that could possibly abuse Ugin better could be something like this, http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9593&d=255104 . He plays it very stax like with a more aggressive twist.

L10
08-24-2015, 09:19 PM
I like the concept of voltaic key, but i could never bring myself to run it side by side with the chalice since we put it on 1 so often, unless i have a welder to recur it. Also, it conflicts with lightning greaves if you don't have a second creature to move the boots around.
My thinking is if I have Chalice @1, I am probably winning. Otherwise, I'd rather have key. But yeah, it can be awkward, which is why I am only playing with two copies, which I think is the right balance. I think it's power level justifies playing it though. And to be honest, I can't remember the last time I had the Lightning Greaves conflict issue. Playing with Factories helps to facilitate this problem. I also like having Key to untap Grim Monoliths, or to pump Factories, and other shenanigans. It is just a versatile card.

Thanks for the feedback vs. Lands. Everything you said is logical and sound. I just need to put it in practice. But yeah, my approach vs. Lands was definitely wrong.

@Takei Masaya's list
I think it is really interesting list. I really like the idea of playing a Stax-like deck again. The only thing that is literally stopping me to play testing that list are the three Candelabra of Tawnos.

movingtonewao
08-24-2015, 10:17 PM
I think its more of a mashup between MUD and 12post. Darn those candelabras though...they are prohibitive :(

Troll_ov_Grimness
08-24-2015, 11:04 PM
I'm going to get a lot of haters for saying this

Glasses of Urza

Dig Through Time has got you countered too many times? Want to sequence better? Is 1 mana in a grindy game with Chalice of The Void in the same deck worth paying to sequence all your spells the best you can?

I'm slotting one of these even if it costs 1 I don't care.

If there was a better option I'd play it .

OH, but the pay mana to activate on this one is brutal

Scrying Glass - 2

Artifact

3, Tap: Choose a number greater than 0 and a color. Target opponent reveals his or her hand. If that opponent reveals exactly the chosen number of cards of the chosen color, you draw a card.

...

I'm interested in any other cards like this.. like Wand Of Ith ,

MGB
08-25-2015, 09:22 PM
So question:

I've noticed that everyone in Vintage is playing Hangarback Walkers as a 3-of or even 4-of in their Workshop builds. Is Walker something that needs to be played in the Legacy version of this deck as well, or is Walker a Vintage-specific metagame thing?

L10
08-25-2015, 09:32 PM
Hangarback Walker is specifically played in Workshop because they can cast it for any XX combination. They play with a lot of resistors, and sometimes that results them having their threat stuck in their hand. With Hangarback Walker, that is not a problem, because it can be as big or as small as it wants to be. If Hangarback Walker dies, it also fuels Tolarian Academy.

MGB
08-25-2015, 09:51 PM
Hangarback Walker is specifically played in Workshop because they can cast it for any XX combination. They play with a lot of resistors, and sometimes that results them having their threat stuck in their hand. With Hangarback Walker, that is not a problem, because it can be as big or as small as it wants to be. If Hangarback Walker dies, it also fuels Tolarian Academy.

So other than sacing to Forgemaster, the Walker doesn't have enough synergies to be playable in the Legacy MUD version?

L10
08-25-2015, 10:05 PM
I think it would have been better if it had a "leaves the battlefield" clause. Wurmcoil Engine is probably just better.

Wilkin
08-25-2015, 10:18 PM
So other than sacing to Forgemaster, the Walker doesn't have enough synergies to be playable in the Legacy MUD version?

I briefly tried Walker. I had 2 in the board but hardly boarded it in. It's still a good card, not sure about it being viable.

I thought that it was good as it could be a turn 1 play (via Ancient Tomb etc.) or late game with tons of mana. Also being a Construct is nice if you play Cavern of Souls as it shares a creature type with Forgemaster and Metalworker. But in reality I rarely boarded it in vs anyone.

It's still worth experimenting with though.

sun tzu
08-26-2015, 02:46 AM
I briefly tried Walker. I had 2 in the board but hardly boarded it in. It's still a good card, not sure about it being viable.

I thought that it was good as it could be a turn 1 play (via Ancient Tomb etc.) or late game with tons of mana. Also being a Construct is nice if you play Cavern of Souls as it shares a creature type with Forgemaster and Metalworker. But in reality I rarely boarded it in vs anyone.

It's still worth experimenting with though.
The only thing I immediately thought of was Trinket Mage + walker.

In a colorless build you would probably need the cloudposts for this to be close to viable. Without the ridiculous amount of potential mana I think there is probably other threats that you could look at first.

bruizar
08-26-2015, 03:11 AM
I talked with andy probasco about hangarback walker in vintage. He and rich shay tested it before champs and from what I understand it is mostly there as anti pulverize anti serenity tech. Not much pulverize being played though. It being a scalable threat is nice too. Vintage is much more infested with artifact-hate so hangarback walker is a good metagame choice there. i dont see it in legacy but I may well be wrong.

--

i didn't see any Arcbound Ravagers but I really like Hangarback Walker with ravager and trike.

darkgh0st
08-26-2015, 08:11 AM
In legacy,
An 8cc, 4/4 that makes four 1/1's can be game changing.
A 6cc, 3/3 that grows and makes at least three 1/1's... I'd still prefer more Wurmcoils.
A 4cc, 2/2 that grows and makes at least two 1/1's will get eaten by Goyfs, Batterskulls, or better, but will trump Liliana without blockers.
A 2cc, 1/1 that grows and makes at least one 1/1 sounds like a losing card, but would be the best value for it especially if you can protect and grow it really big while not losing the game. Sounds like a very challenging feat to do.

And at any level, it can get AD'ed. Not saying its a bad card, but more of a bad investment for a slot. I think it is best in a deck that can consistently produce big mana or can double threat fast (eg. cast Chalice and Walker in turn one).

bruizar
08-26-2015, 09:25 AM
I can see Hangarback Walker being played alongside Master of Etherium for 0 mana. At that cost, it's a great creature I think.

Rikter
08-26-2015, 09:39 AM
delver, elves, goblins, and D&T come to mind. But I haven't actually played with either (spellskite or clasp), in my sideboard, so I'm just theorycrafting here.

Those are in fact the match ups where Contagion Clasp comes in, plus infect.



Manaless - Phantasmagorian
Mana - LED

These are the correct targets as far as I'm concerned



So question:

I've noticed that everyone in Vintage is playing Hangarback Walkers as a 3-of or even 4-of in their Workshop builds. Is Walker something that needs to be played in the Legacy version of this deck as well, or is Walker a Vintage-specific metagame thing?

Roland Chang played a walker list in Legacy, using Smokestack Ravager and Ensnaring bridge. I didn't catch his full mana base so I don't know if he was on post lands or if he went white for Flagstones with Smokestack. In Legacy it's a scalable threat which is nice, but I think it needs to be built around, basically cutting your forgemaster package and adding in ravagers and such.

L10
08-26-2015, 02:32 PM
Sounds like a neat idea. Not sure about Ensnaring Bridge unless it came out from the SB. I'd probably opt to splash red for Welder/Daretti to recur Stacks, Tangle Wire, Wurmcoil Engine, Ravager, and Triskelion.

Rikter
08-26-2015, 03:18 PM
Sounds like a neat idea. Not sure about Ensnaring Bridge unless it came out from the SB. I'd probably opt to splash red for Welder/Daretti to recur Stacks, Tangle Wire, Wurmcoil Engine, Ravager, and Triskelion.

The bridges may have come out of the board, I only saw pictures of the list and I didn't get to see it in action at Eternal Weekend. But I think that it is reasonable to play bridges in the main, since you are playing the smokestack. Hiding behind bridge while you grind the other guy out is strong, and the deck had 7-8 ways to remove the bridge, plus you can use the thopter tokens and ravager to attack through it anyways

Jakobian
08-27-2015, 01:58 AM
Just an FYI, I went completely undefeated at a 12 person GPT for GP Seattle with my usual list. The only change I made was -1 Karn liberated from the sideboard for +1 Spine of Ish Sah due to the prevalence of Omnishow.

The tournament was 5 rounds cut to top 4, but after 4 rounds the standings showed the top4 was already determined by points (My intention was to double-draw in after round 3, which is what I did).

Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Dredge is generally an easy matchup for MUD because chalice at 1 turns off one of their sacrifice outlets, and Trinisphere makes them entirely reliant on ichorids and narcomoebas, as well as bridge triggers. In game 1 I had a turn 1 trinisphere and my opponent scooped on the spot. I don't think that was the right call on his part, but the result is probably the same. I boarded in 2 tormod's crypts but didn't see them in game 2 and he had a fast enough hand to beat me down. Game 3 I got a lodestone golem on board pretty early on and sort of locked him out with it.

Round 2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
I was not expecting to win this matchup, as I know BUG can be troublesome. I don't have many notes written down from this, but I remember trinisphere locking him out of doing a lot, and in one of the games he basically just drew lands and I resolved an Ugin.

Round 3: Canadian Thresh (2-0)
Another matchup I was not expecting to go so easily. In game 1 I think my opponent was stuck on 1 land for longer than usual, and I ate through 2 of his force of wills with trinisphere and kuldotha forgemaster. The real spells I wanted to land were the lightning greaves and the platinum angel I had from my opener. The greaves hit play because I assume my opponent figured he'd just deal with whatever creature I would cast. Platinum angel saves the day when I'm at 7 life, and I equip greaves and my opponent scoops. RUG has no mainboard way to deal with a lightning greaves'd platinum angel.

Game 2 was a blur, I think I got chalice at x=1 on the table and it was pretty downhill from there for RUG.

Round 4: ID with omnishow

Round 5: ID with omnishow

Top4: Omnishow (2-0)
My opening hand was Cloudpost, Vesuva, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Spine of Ish Sah, Trinisphere, and another land I don't remember, maybe wasteland? My opponent digs for his show and tell with cantrips for a couple turns, and by the time he finds show and tell I have 6 mana in play. I show and tell in trinisphere and he is forced to pass the turn since he only has 1 or 2 lands untapped after show and tell. On my turn I play my city of traitors and cast spine of ish sah to blow up omniscience. He cantrips on his next turn and doesn't hit his land drop, so I'm free to cast whatever I draw. I drew a forgemaster and the next turn cast a grim monolith as well. On his turn he cantrips again and doesn't have enough mana to cast anything else so he passes it back to me. I pass the turn back after drawing something non-useful. On his turn he cantrips again and during his end step I get blighsteel colossus for the win.

I sideboard in 1 emrakul, 2 spine of ish sah, 1 karn liberated. I side out 1 sundering titan, 2 lightning greaves, and 1 platinum angel (emrakul annihilator trigger will just kill it anyway)

I landed a chalice at x=1 and don't remember much else about game 2 except the fact that I got forgemaster and 3 artifacts down pretty quickly, and when forgemaster lost summoning sickness and my opponent was passing the turn back to me, he says "I guess you just win with forgemaster now right?" and scooped.

Final round: Omnishow (2-1)

This round was a shit-show of crazy luck on my part. Game 1 he show and tells omniscience and casts emrakul and kills me pretty quickly.

I sideboard the same as in the top4 match vs omnishow.

Game 2 I have to mulligan down to 5 cards due to no-land hands, and my 5 cards were Wasteland, City of Traitors, Blightsteel Colossus, trinisphere, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Turn 1 wasteland, pass. Opponent cantrips on his turn. I cast trinisphere on turn 2 off wasteland and city, opponent lets it resolve thinking omniscience overrides it. On his turn 3 he casts show and tell and I put my emrakul into play, he puts omniscience down and tries to cast emrakul. I inform him emrakul costs 3 because of trinisphere. He thinks for a solid minute and we go to game 3.

Game 3 I have emrakul and trinisphere in my opener again. He show and tells omniscience and I put down 3sphere. On my next turn I cast metalworker, which resolves. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast 2 lodestone golems and pass it back. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast spine of ish sah and he (and I) misunderstood how dig through time, omniscience, 2 lodestone golems, and trinisphere work together, so he taps mana to cast dig through time, exiling his whole graveyard (8 cards at the time). Spine of ish sah resolves and blows up omniscience, I bash him for 10 and he goes to 7 life. On his turn he has 5 mana and casts show and tell again, and we both show in emrakul. He scoops.


I'm considering cutting a lightning greaves (leaving 1 mainboard) and putting either another Spine of Ish Sah or a Duplicant in the mainboard. I currently already have 1 spine in the main, but I fear omniscience so much. Lightning greaves has been less amazing as of late, so I figure it's the most flexible slot to replace with a spine or duplicant.

Does anyone have any other strategies against omnishow, or super secret tech for them?

Brentane
08-27-2015, 02:31 AM
Just an FYI, I went completely undefeated at a 12 person GPT for GP Seattle with my usual list. The only change I made was -1 Karn liberated from the sideboard for +1 Spine of Ish Sah due to the prevalence of Omnishow.

The tournament was 5 rounds cut to top 4, but after 4 rounds the standings showed the top4 was already determined by points (My intention was to double-draw in after round 3, which is what I did).

Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Dredge is generally an easy matchup for MUD because chalice at 1 turns off one of their sacrifice outlets, and Trinisphere makes them entirely reliant on ichorids and narcomoebas, as well as bridge triggers. In game 1 I had a turn 1 trinisphere and my opponent scooped on the spot. I don't think that was the right call on his part, but the result is probably the same. I boarded in 2 tormod's crypts but didn't see them in game 2 and he had a fast enough hand to beat me down. Game 3 I got a lodestone golem on board pretty early on and sort of locked him out with it.

Round 2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
I was not expecting to win this matchup, as I know BUG can be troublesome. I don't have many notes written down from this, but I remember trinisphere locking him out of doing a lot, and in one of the games he basically just drew lands and I resolved an Ugin.

Round 3: Canadian Thresh (2-0)
Another matchup I was not expecting to go so easily. In game 1 I think my opponent was stuck on 1 land for longer than usual, and I ate through 2 of his force of wills with trinisphere and kuldotha forgemaster. The real spells I wanted to land were the lightning greaves and the platinum angel I had from my opener. The greaves hit play because I assume my opponent figured he'd just deal with whatever creature I would cast. Platinum angel saves the day when I'm at 7 life, and I equip greaves and my opponent scoops. RUG has no mainboard way to deal with a lightning greaves'd platinum angel.

Game 2 was a blur, I think I got chalice at x=1 on the table and it was pretty downhill from there for RUG.

Round 4: ID with omnishow

Round 5: ID with omnishow

Top4: Omnishow (2-0)
My opening hand was Cloudpost, Vesuva, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Spine of Ish Sah, Trinisphere, and another land I don't remember, maybe wasteland? My opponent digs for his show and tell with cantrips for a couple turns, and by the time he finds show and tell I have 6 mana in play. I show and tell in trinisphere and he is forced to pass the turn since he only has 1 or 2 lands untapped after show and tell. On my turn I play my city of traitors and cast spine of ish sah to blow up omniscience. He cantrips on his next turn and doesn't hit his land drop, so I'm free to cast whatever I draw. I drew a forgemaster and the next turn cast a grim monolith as well. On his turn he cantrips again and doesn't have enough mana to cast anything else so he passes it back to me. I pass the turn back after drawing something non-useful. On his turn he cantrips again and during his end step I get blighsteel colossus for the win.

I sideboard in 1 emrakul, 2 spine of ish sah, 1 karn liberated. I side out 1 sundering titan, 2 lightning greaves, and 1 platinum angel (emrakul annihilator trigger will just kill it anyway)

I landed a chalice at x=1 and don't remember much else about game 2 except the fact that I got forgemaster and 3 artifacts down pretty quickly, and when forgemaster lost summoning sickness and my opponent was passing the turn back to me, he says "I guess you just win with forgemaster now right?" and scooped.

Final round: Omnishow (2-1)

This round was a shit-show of crazy luck on my part. Game 1 he show and tells omniscience and casts emrakul and kills me pretty quickly.

I sideboard the same as in the top4 match vs omnishow.

Game 2 I have to mulligan down to 5 cards due to no-land hands, and my 5 cards were Wasteland, City of Traitors, Blightsteel Colossus, trinisphere, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Turn 1 wasteland, pass. Opponent cantrips on his turn. I cast trinisphere on turn 2 off wasteland and city, opponent lets it resolve thinking omniscience overrides it. On his turn 3 he casts show and tell and I put my emrakul into play, he puts omniscience down and tries to cast emrakul. I inform him emrakul costs 3 because of trinisphere. He thinks for a solid minute and we go to game 3.

Game 3 I have emrakul and trinisphere in my opener again. He show and tells omniscience and I put down 3sphere. On my next turn I cast metalworker, which resolves. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast 2 lodestone golems and pass it back. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast spine of ish sah and he (and I) misunderstood how dig through time, omniscience, 2 lodestone golems, and trinisphere work together, so he taps mana to cast dig through time, exiling his whole graveyard (8 cards at the time). Spine of ish sah resolves and blows up omniscience, I bash him for 10 and he goes to 7 life. On his turn he has 5 mana and casts show and tell again, and we both show in emrakul. He scoops.


I'm considering cutting a lightning greaves (leaving 1 mainboard) and putting either another Spine of Ish Sah or a Duplicant in the mainboard. I currently already have 1 spine in the main, but I fear omniscience so much. Lightning greaves has been less amazing as of late, so I figure it's the most flexible slot to replace with a spine or duplicant.

Does anyone have any other strategies against omnishow, or super secret tech for them?
I came across this problem as an OmniTell player. 3sphere off Show & Tell just kills us. So to combat this I just add in from the sideboard Vendilion Cliques. Since I'm mono-blue as well I don't get hit by Wasteland and the like so I can cast it efficiently. I don't understand why a lot of OmniTell players don't have Cliques in their sideboard for this matchup. I mean cmon, the Cliques are a win condition themselves.

potatodavid
08-27-2015, 09:27 AM
Does anyone have any other strategies against omnishow, or super secret tech for them?

I had fun dropping an uba mask on a guy one game. Its super narrow but extremely funny if it sticks.

darkgh0st
08-27-2015, 10:09 AM
For the most part, we tutor for Blightsteel. It has made Sundering Titan more like a flex card for me. Has anybody thought of replacing the Titan as well?

@Jakobian: gratz on the finish.

Rikter
08-27-2015, 11:11 AM
For the most part, we tutor for Blightsteel. It has made Sundering Titan more like a flex card for me. Has anybody thought of replacing the Titan as well?

@Jakobian: gratz on the finish.


I've been debating the Titan as well, but I think Im tabling my MUD list for a bit. Some of it may just be variance/the fact that when the deck works it looks unbeatable and when it fails it looks like trash, but I've been on a real run of just unkeepable hands (Vesuva + Wasteland or City anyone?), hands that are ok but get absolutely wrecked by a wasteland etc. The deck does not mulligan particularly well either. I've been seeing an increase in Delver in my area, and the combination of enter tapped lands, getting wastelanded, and having to play around daze makes for a really rough time on the draw.

I don't think MUD is a fantastic deck to be playing in a wasteland heavy meta; it's not that it can't win, but damn is it considerably harder, especially when it's a blue deck running the wastes.

MGB
08-27-2015, 11:22 AM
For the most part, we tutor for Blightsteel. It has made Sundering Titan more like a flex card for me. Has anybody thought of replacing the Titan as well?


Titan is one of the most valuable tutor targets in this deck, isn't it? I think it's actually correct to run 2 Titans. Being able to destroy an opponent's manabase is just so powerful in certain matchups.

Rikter
08-27-2015, 11:50 AM
Titan is one of the most valuable tutor targets in this deck, isn't it? I think it's actually correct to run 2 Titans. Being able to destroy an opponent's manabase is just so powerful in certain matchups.

You'd be surprised, I have cut down on Titans and haven't seen any big finishes from lists running multiples. I've found him to be not all that relevant, in terms of Forgemaster targets Steel Hellkite and Platinum Emperion have been my #2 and #3 targets after blightsteel. The Steel Hellkite is such a ridiculous board wipe, and the Emperion stabilizes and keeps you in the game. I'm taking something of a MUD break for a bit, but if I were to run the list this Sunday at the Jersey 5k I would strongly consider switching out Platinum Emperion for Triskelion.

darkgh0st
08-27-2015, 12:00 PM
Titan is one of the most valuable tutor targets in this deck, isn't it? I think it's actually correct to run 2 Titans. Being able to destroy an opponent's manabase is just so powerful in certain matchups.

Its a choice between Titan, 4th 3sphere, or 2nd Greaves.

@Jakobian: Did you take out the Steel Hellkite and replaced it with Ugin?


I don't think MUD is a fantastic deck to be playing in a wasteland heavy meta; it's not that it can't win, but damn is it considerably harder, especially when it's a blue deck running the wastes.

Would you swap Wastes to Darksteel Citadels, at this point?

Rikter
08-27-2015, 12:51 PM
Its a choice between Titan, 4th 3sphere, or 2nd Greaves.

@Jakobian: Did you take out the Steel Hellkite and replaced it with Ugin?



Would you swap Wastes to Darksteel Citadels, at this point?

No, because its rarely the wastelands that are getting targeted (lands will target it to protect depths combo), its the Sol lands and Locus lands, and for me the utility of the wastelands trumps darksteels indestructable and being an artifact. That said, I've lately found myself in positions where I can't waste because it hurts my own mana base more than it does theirs, because I'm trying to cast 6-8 mana spells and they are trying to cast delver of secrets and goyf. This is the reason I stopped playing wasteland in the first place, although I recently brought it back to fight ports and depths combo.

I was debating working up a hangarback walker/arcbound ravager version of MUD to fight the delver lists, because I think the big mana variants are just way too high variance these days, and I wanted an actual lowered curve, not a virtual curve obtained through ramping.

Silverflame
08-27-2015, 12:53 PM
I went to a 20 man LQ this weekend and finished 4-1:

Round 1 - Monored Goblins
The player was a teammate of mine and we both knew what each other was playing.

1-2
G1 - He went first, I mull to 6 and keep a hand good enough to finish him quickly if he starts with vial. He casts a lackey, that brings matron, that brings goblin settler and I die quickly.
I side in Contagion Engine, Torpor Orb, and revokers, side out Sundering Titan, trinispheres.
G2- I go cloudpost T1, lodestone, wurmcoil T3, that eventually brings me to 28 life. He casts a few goblins and swing for 16, then Ugin says hi.
G3 - I mull to 5 looking for a quick hand, but find a hand good enough if he starts with vial. He T1 lackey and wrecks me again.

Round 2 - RW Death and Taxes
2-0
G1- He tries to waste and lock me with blood moon, but I get a metalworker online, cast ugin, spit my hand and finish him quickly.
I side in revokers, staff of nin and ratchet bomb and takeout sundering titan and trinispheres.
G2- He goes vial, revoker on kuldotha, I go revoker on vial, chalice on 1. He casts Magus of the moon, then stoneforge to batterskull and goes for the beating. I resolve, ratchet bomb, greaves and platinum angel with metalworker. He thinks hard and tries to cast cataclysm, but he doesn't have WW. Then I misplay badly. I sandbag his life to get to 8 mana and cast Ugin, -3. Of course he cataclysms the next turn, but I thought Ugin would remain on board. I keep a land, greaves and angel, and he keeps stoneforge. Angel beats him to death while I'm at negative life.

Round 3 - Elves
2-1
G1 - He starts and I mull to 5. He goes GSZ for dryad, I waste him. He casts an elf, I cast chalice on 1. He casts another elf. I go trinisphere. He does something, I Ugin.
I side in contagion engine, 2 revokers and sideout sundering titan and 2 wurmcoils.
G2 - I try to combo with metalworker, that gets decayed. He gets natural order for hoof. GG.
G3 - I play T1 metalworker, T2 Ugin.

Round 4 - Naya
2-1
G1 - I mull to 5, he goes first and plays Grove of the burnwillows to deathrite shaman. I cast monolith, and next turn, trinisphere T4 ugin, that ults on T6. Later he tells me that he kept the hand because he though the willow was a fetch land.
I side in revokers, sideout trinisphere.
G2 - He T1 thoughtseize and takes my wurmcoil. I cast chalice on 1. He goes tarmogoyf, then hymn to tourach. I fail to do anything relevant before he bashes me.
Since I'm on the play, I put trinispheres back and take out 1 chalice and 1 revoker.
G3 - I keep a hand with wasteland, 3 posts, metalworker, lodestone. He duress me and takes nothing. I draw a monolith and casts metalworker. He casts DRS. I draw a Staff and combo.

Round 5 - Elves
2-1
The opponent is another teammate of mine. We both know what each other is playing (he have a foil MUD).
G1 - He goes GSZ dryad. I cast trinisphere. He casts symbiote, I go wurmcoil and beat him a couple of times until Hellkite arrives.
same side than before.
G2 - He casts an elf, I cast monolith, chalice on 1. He casts heritage druid and I cast kuldotha. He casts Elvish visionary. I fetch contagion engine and proliferate, clearing his board. Next turn, Ugin that eventually ultimate him.

I'm second on swiss and gets 108 bucks as prize (first was the goblins player from round 1). Top 8 continues for points to the nationals.

Top 8 - Elves
the same opponent from round 5. Game went basically the same, Ugin is just unbeatable against elves.

Top 4 - Reanimator
Another teammate of mine. It's a bad match for me.
G1 - I mull reasonable hands to try to get a fast hand. I fail and keep a so-so hand of 5. He starts slow and I regret mulliganing. I'm dazed once and he combos on turn 4.
I side in 3 tormod's, sideout wurmcoils.
G2 - I mull to 6 and keep a hand with 3 lands, trinisphere, chalice and lodestone. Chalice is forced, trinisphere sticks, but I don't have a beater to tempo him. he combos anyway.

I get some foil lodestone golems and stuff as prize.

L10
08-27-2015, 01:12 PM
As for the tutor topic, 75 percent of the time, I fetch for Blightsteel, 20 percent of the time, I fetch for Sundering Titan, and 5 percent of the of the time, I fetch for Staff of Nin. The 20 percent of the time is against Miracles, since fetching for Blightsteel can be a liability.


I've been debating the Titan as well, but I think Im tabling my MUD list for a bit. Some of it may just be variance/the fact that when the deck works it looks unbeatable and when it fails it looks like trash, but I've been on a real run of just unkeepable hands (Vesuva + Wasteland or City anyone?), hands that are ok but get absolutely wrecked by a wasteland etc. The deck does not mulligan particularly well either. I've been seeing an increase in Delver in my area, and the combination of enter tapped lands, getting wastelanded, and having to play around daze makes for a really rough time on the draw.

I don't think MUD is a fantastic deck to be playing in a wasteland heavy meta; it's not that it can't win, but damn is it considerably harder, especially when it's a blue deck running the wastes.

This is precisely why I stopped playing with 12-post and have more utility Lands (4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Wastelands, 4 Mishra's Factory, 2 Darksteel Citadel / Buried Ruins) and 1/2 Crucible of Worlds.